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Inside Personal Growth with Greg Voisen · Podcast 1238: Inside Emotionally Invested: How to Outsmart Financial Anxiety and Plan FearlesslyMoney isn’t just math—it’s deeply emotional. And according to Mary Clements Evans, author of Emotionally Invested: Outsmart Your Anxiety for Fearless Retirement Planning, that emotional connection is the key to unlocking true financial well-being.
In a recent episode of the Inside Personal Growth podcast, Mary joins host Greg Voisen for an honest and empowering conversation about money, mindset, and the human psychology behind financial planning. As the founder of Evans Wealth Strategies and a seasoned Certified Financial Planner (CFP), Mary brings not just professional insight—but personal wisdom shaped by her own journey from poverty to purpose.
Listen to the full episode for practical advice, real-life stories, and a refreshing take on planning your financial future without fear.
The Emotional Side of MoneyFrom the start, Mary reminds us: we’re not just financial beings—we’re emotional beings. That’s why traditional charts, spreadsheets, and retirement calculators often fall short. “No one needs to see one more pie chart,” she jokes. “We need to understand why we behave the way we do with money.”
This is where behavioral finance plays a central role. Mary explains two powerful psychological patterns that influence most financial decisions:
- FOMO – Fear of Missing Out
- FORO – Fear of Running Out
Each mindset influences spending, saving, and investing behavior. Most couples, she notes, consist of one of each—leading to tension, confusion, or silence around money. The solution? Open dialogue, empathy, and tailored planning.
Why Financial Therapy MattersMary’s mission is rooted in making clients feel safe—not judged. Unlike shame-based advice that scolds or overwhelms, her approach is about financial therapy: a blend of psychology and planning that empowers people to feel emotionally secure with their money.
She recalls her early years growing up poor and how that shaped her own FORO tendencies. It wasn’t until a tragic personal loss—the passing of her son—that she shifted to embrace more balance and joy in the present. That experience inspired a deeper belief in what she now calls “financial happiness”: the ability to enjoy your life today while feeling secure about tomorrow.
Planning Through UncertaintyOne of the most timely takeaways from the conversation is how to navigate financial uncertainty—especially in turbulent economic climates.
Mary urges listeners to:
- Understand what you truly own (i.e., shares in real companies, not just market values)
- Maintain a “money airbag” (at least 2 years’ worth of liquid funds)
- Avoid panic-based decisions
- Talk openly about fears and expectations with your partner
Using behavioral insights, she helps clients structure their finances across multiple accounts to reduce emotional reactivity—especially during bear markets or life changes.
Redefining the Role of the Financial AdvisorAccording to Mary, the financial industry has failed many people by making them feel “less than” or unqualified to engage in financial conversations. She advocates for:
- Standardized titles across the industry
- Fiduciary responsibility for all advisors
- Greater emphasis on behavioral finance training
As a CFP and Accredited Behavioral Finance Professional (ABFP), Mary encourages people to find an advisor who listens, empowers, and helps them understand—not someone who talks over them with jargon or judgment.
About the Book: Emotionally InvestedMary’s book is more than a guide to retirement planning. It’s a call to rethink our relationship with money. Whether you’re a recent graduate, mid-career professional, or nearing retirement, Emotionally Invested helps you:
- Identify your financial mindset
- Navigate money conversations with loved ones
- Create a practical, values-based financial plan
- Let go of guilt and fear around spending and saving
Learn More & ConnectMary Clements Evans
➥ Book: Emotionally Invested: Outsmart Your Anxiety for Fearless Retirement Planning
➥ Website: maryclementsevans.com
➥ LinkedIn: Mary Clements Evans
If you’re feeling anxious, overwhelmed, or unsure about your finances, this episode is a must-listen—and Mary’s book is a must-read.
You may also refer to the transcripts below for the full transcription (not edited) of the interview.
Interview Transcipt -Not EditedEmailDownloadNew Tab[00:00.5]
Welcome to Inside Personal Growth Podcast. Deep Dive with us as we unlock the secrets to personal development, empowering you to thrive. Here, growth isn't just a goal, it's a journey. Tune in, transform, and take your life to the next level by listening to just one of our podcasts.
[00:20.1]
Well, for all my listeners, you're in for a special treat today as, joining us from Pennsylvania, on the other side of that screen is Mary Clemen Evans. Good morning to you, Mary. How are you? I'm great, Greg. How are you today? Good, good, good.
[00:35.3]
And people, they know me, but they don't know you. And I'm going to show the book, and there'll be something flashing across the screen for my listeners if you're actually watching on YouTube. Obviously, if you're listening, the book is called Emotionally Invested and Outsmart your Anxiety for Fearless Retirement Planning.
[00:56.1]
And this is a Forbes book. And Mary, had a lot of fun writing it. She told me so. A lot of work, but a lot of fun. And you're going to learn a lot today, listeners, and I think from somebody who's not only a good financial planner, but is good at as a life planner.
[01:17.2]
And so you have to be that if you're going to work with people's finances, because more than finances comes into the picture. Right, Mary? That's for sure. Yeah. So let me tell them a little bit about you. I, like I said, I'm thrilled to have you on the show at, Financial Advisors, who's revolutionizing how we think about money by bringing emotions into the equation?
[01:43.0]
Mary is the founder and president of Evans Wealth Strategies. And what city in Pennsylvania is that again? Emmaus, Pennsylvania. Emmaus, Pennsylvania. You can look her up on the web as well, and we'll put a link in these show notes below for everybody that'll go directly to the website.
[02:04.1]
She is a cfp, a cdfa, and an abfs. And I'm going to let her talk about all those designations because I truly don't know what those last two are. But what makes her really, truly is her background approach to what she calls financial therapy.
[02:24.3]
She opened her practice in 2008. She began experimenting with a, completely different way of, interacting with clients. Her intent was to create an environment where people would never feel judged or guilty about their money decisions. And she said, here's a shocker.
[02:41.0]
We're emotional about our money. I don't think the industry likes to admit that money is so very emotional. And it is. She's been Featured all over the place. You can look for her out there. But, Mary, I'm going to let the.
[02:57.0]
You tell the rest of the story. And I think that's where listeners like to. To know, because, look, you opened this firm in 2008, and while, you know, it may seem like whatever, it's.
[03:12.1]
It's not that long, long ago. So where did you come from? How did you get there? And how did your personal history really play into you being so passionate about this? I think I'm gonna answer that in a little bit of reverse order.
[03:29.7]
Okay. People are a little surprised to find out I grew up poor. Very poor. As a matter of fact, the house I grew up in had once been a chicken coop. And the seven of us, my dad converted it into a house and the seven of us lived there. And at one point in my childhood, my parents were great people.
[03:47.1]
They were smart, they were loving, they were hard working. But some tough circumstances and we actually ended up on welfare. And back then it was. There wasn't any food stamps. You got, you know, government food. There is such a thing as government cheese. I remember it well.
[04:02.5]
Yeah. And I remember when we went on there, you know, and my mom, who was really a strong individual, you know, had tears in her eyes, and I figured it was because of shame and guilt and she felt bad. And it really had an impact with me. I thought, I never want that to be me.
[04:20.1]
And luckily it wasn't. I have been extremely fortunate in my career. And I went into corporate finance. I worked for Fortune 500 and I did very well. It was all very nice. And then I worked for a company that closed.
[04:36.5]
I was deciding what to do with my life at that point. My mother had cancer. I was her caretaker. So I was. You were the. You were the financial advisor I'm calling, actually the, the cfo, for Road Publishing, right? Yeah. Rodale Publishing, Men's Health, you know, Prevention.
[04:54.9]
You work there for years and years and years, right? Yeah, about 10 years. Yeah. Long time. Yeah. You know, it's interesting, you. We talk to people who've been in impoverished, situations who rise up from the ashes like you have.
[05:12.3]
And, you know, was really kind of strange about this is that you started this practice just two weeks before Lehman Brothers collapsed in 2008. And you must be thinking to yourself as somebody, wow, my timing couldn't have been any worse.
[05:30.5]
Most people would call this a terrible timing. Right, But. But you turned it into excess. So what does that say about how we should view setbacks in our Lives and in particular financial ones, because, look, your parents didn't have a lot of money.
[05:49.3]
You rose up. How many kids were there? Five kids. Five. Now, have they all become super successful? They have, yeah, they have. Everybody was smart and hard working. Yeah. Great parents. Right. So it just shows you that you're, that, you know, where you come from doesn't determine your destiny.
[06:07.3]
Right. And here you are in 2008 going, okay, how am I going to get, get through this? So what, what would you tell people out there today that are, maybe feeling the pressure of this turmoil, financial environment that we're in?
[06:25.7]
And, you know, they're saying, hey, my 401K is a 201 and a half. Right.
[06:36.1]
Well, one of my favorite expressions is, it's not what happens to you, it's how you respond to it. And one of the things we're doing for our clients, and we've always done is we know these times are bad. And we certainly know two weeks before Lehman's brothers, they were really bad, too.
[06:52.1]
And people are frightened. This is not their world. You know, they have a 401k, but they're not working in the finance industry. And it changes all the time. You know, we go through bad times every four to five years. You know, it, it happens. We turn around and we keep moving forward.
[07:09.3]
And what people tend to lose perspective of, is this. And one thing I tell people all the time, when you're in the stock market, what do you own? You own parts of really good companies. You know, these, these companies know what they're doing. If you're high quality and well diversified.
[07:25.8]
And no matter what happens, like I work for Kellogg's. The next morning, the board of directors of Kellogg's is getting up and saying, how do we make more money today? They don't care. Tariffs are no tariffs. You know, who's in office, what the policies are. They want to make more money.
[07:41.0]
None of them said, let's not frost those flakes because we don't like what's going on. Like, let's put frosting on them. I bet we'll sell a billion of them. And they did. Yeah, so that will happen, but sometimes that takes time. So you, you have to be patient there.
[07:56.9]
Also, Those same, CEOs and board of directors go into times where there's cost cutting. And I think, you know, we see that. Look, you were the CFO for a very big publisher, and I'm sure you went times where budgets were a really big deal.
[08:13.5]
And living with those budgets and the toughest thing that most people in your position have in HR is like, letting people go, right? It's like, okay, we, We. We don't need everybody right now. And I think there's as much fear of that today as there is anything, because we've seen these massive layoffs and things happening.
[08:36.0]
What. What is your. I mean, if. If Mary had a crystal ball, which, you know, we don't all have a crystal ball, but if you were to look forward another three or four years right now, where. What would you tell people, to make them feel more at ease emotionally about their money and their life?
[08:59.6]
That's a big question. It is a big question. I don't expect you to have an answer, but at least you can d. Here we go. Let's do the two step. Greg. I mean, people. People are definitely worried about getting let go.
[09:15.2]
Yeah. Let's remember, even in 1983, unemployment was almost 11%. And we came very close to that. 2008, 2009, big unemployment numbers. And it could happen again. So prepare for it. You know, have cash set aside, have your, you know, money airbag, what I call it, ready.
[09:34.0]
But here's something else. Why it is so frightening when you get let go. And I really learned this lesson in 2008. What are you really afraid of? You're afraid of the unknown. And I tell people, what if I told you, okay, you just got let go from your job. Nine months from now, you're going to find another job.
[09:50.6]
It's not going to be for quite as much money as you had been making, but you get the job, and it's a decent company. You're working there for maybe six months. And here, lo and behold, another position comes open much more closer to what you were earning before. And you take that job. Could you handle that?
[10:05.9]
And everybody's like, yeah, I said, of course you can. And that's what's going to happen. You just don't know it. We don't know the timing. We don't know what it's going to lay out. But, you know, most people find another job, they figure it out, they change their lifestyle. But try not to let the fear of the unknown overwhelm you and also don't let it paralyze you.
[10:25.1]
Keep moving forward. Yeah. I have a friend who's a physician who wrote a book about worry, and he's. He's a great guy. And I was just at his house yesterday in his living room talking with him, and I said, I've used your statement many times. Steve, if I gave you a quarter for everyone, he said that worry is the misuse of our imagination.
[10:47.1]
Yeah. And, you know, we, we can project forward, but, you know, as my little mother used to say, yesterday's a cancel check, tomorrow's a promissory note. The only time you have is really right now. And I loved her little statement because I still remember it today.
[11:05.3]
With that being said, you argue that the biggest problem isn't that people don't know how, what to do with money. It's that they don't understand why they make the financial decisions. So can you explain what you mean for someone's money?
[11:24.1]
Why? Right. It's like, okay, let's just say somebody comes to you and says, hey, Mary, I'm a socially responsible investor and this is my why, and I am not going to invest in defense or I'm not investing any of that.
[11:41.2]
Is that the why you're talking about? It's not. Okay. I mean, those are some tools that people use. This is actually based on behavioral finance and one of those four initials, Greg so stands for I'm an accredited behavioral finance professional.
[11:57.6]
So their terms are a little difficult to use. They say that there are two types of people, exponential discounters and hyperbolic discounters. I use the term FOMO and fo, Fear of missing out and fear of running out.
[12:13.0]
And here is the high level difference between that. So the fear of missing out, people, they are hyper focused on today. They get dopamine from buying things today, the, the clothing, the golf clubs, getting the, bathroom done, taking a vacation.
[12:31.0]
And we all need dopamine. You know, that's what lights up our brain and it's necessary. So that's who they are. And the photos, the fear of running out, they are hyper focused on the future. They are security seekers. They get their dopamine from saving, from feeling responsible.
[12:49.5]
You know, they, they're always worried like you don't know what's going to happen. You have to save and you have to be, you know, prepared for this. So when you start to realize that this is your money, why, you can now start to realize, okay, this is what I need to do.
[13:05.3]
This is what my partner is thinking. You know why there's a difference there? Mixed marriages can be a little difficult. Yeah, a FOMO and a fomo. Yeah. And that's usually the case though, right? It is more than not. You know, one person, probably saver, one person is the spender and they're trying to compromise.
[13:27.8]
Yeah, sometimes that's not so easy. Well, so what they do is they don't talk, they don't talk about money. That's the biggest problem we have. Right. We don't talk to our friends, we don't talk to our families, we don't talk to our spouse. And why we don't do that is people feel shamed.
[13:44.0]
Why they feel shamed? Guess cuz what our industry has done. We've shamed you. You know, that hasn't worked out. Yeah. And you know, it's interesting, the psychological analysis that you just discussed, you know, the fear of missing out or the fear of running out.
[14:00.9]
And frequently that perspective is shaped by our past. So you came from a family that didn't have a lot of. Were you more on the side of fear of running out? And, you know, because I came from a, family with a little Jewish mother who grew up during the Depression.
[14:23.9]
And it was always the fear of running out. Right. So, when she passed away in the house, she literally had thousands of dollars in little places all around in. She had it in filing cabinets and underneath in Oregon and in drawers and whatever.
[14:41.2]
And you know, you read about people like this when they die and they never tell people that it's there. Right. I have a really funny story about that and I'm going to tell it real quick because this is truly the fear of running out. So we have a garage sale with her stuff.
[14:59.9]
We sell this handbag that she had to some lady for two or three dollars. Now, this was very cool. The lady leaves, she comes back five minutes later, she hands us $500. And she said, I only paid you $3 for this, but there was $500 in that purse.
[15:22.4]
So the, the Great Depression was such an enormous impact on that generation that almost all of them had the fear of running out. And your mom and my mom sound like they could have been twins. Yeah, they probably were. Yeah.
[15:38.2]
After my mom passed away, I told my siblings, go through the pockets of everything, look in the bottom of the drawers, turn things over. And we found tons of money. Because people think of the Great Depression as a stock market crash, which it did, but the stock market was back in a couple of years.
[15:58.9]
The real problem, by the way, was banks closed, there was no FDIC insurance, there was no securities and Exchange Commission. So I don't know, maybe your parents were a lot more affluent than mine, but I'm sure my grandparents, like they were not in the stock market. You know, if they had an extra dollar, you know, or 50 cents, they took it down to the bank, they put it in there.
[16:20.6]
And when the banks collapsed, you know, people lost all that money. So people were terrified. Yeah, yeah, I know. She came from an era where people. Actually, she lived in St. Louis, and, she was telling us stories about people jumping out of windows because they had run out of money and they actually killing themselves.
[16:38.7]
Right. Yeah. That must have been really a tough time. She said, you know, we would, you know, would happen frequently. Been reported in the newspaper. Right. So you mentioned that most financial advice treats people like they're one chart away from financial, happy.
[16:59.4]
And I understand there's all kinds of charts that we can get. Why doesn't showing people more graphs and spreadsheets actually help them, change their behavior? Because it doesn't matter, if it's Schwab or it's the company that you work for or it's.
[17:17.2]
It's Raymond James or whoever. You know, there are a lot of charts and graphs in this business. Let's face it. Well, you know, and. And I have to tell you, when I first started, I was showing people charts and graphs, and then I'm looking at their faces and realize, oh, I think they want to kill themselves.
[17:34.9]
You know, I. I have to do this a different way. But this is the only industry that I know of that. And this goes back to my big sin, big, big lie thing that, you know, we want. We make people feel like they need to understand everything about the financial markets, the most complex system in the world.
[17:56.6]
Why? I don't know. My husband gives anesthesia. He never goes into a patient and say, well, you know, what anesthesia do you want? Here's five that I was looking at. You know, here are all the pluses and minuses of it. What do you think that, you know, anesthesia should I give you?
[18:11.9]
I mean, it's crazy. And we're not. We are emotional creatures. Like, I openly admit I have a brownie problem. So no one needs to show me another chart or graph of how many calories are in brownies or what happens if I eat too many brownies.
[18:28.9]
You know, like, I don't need to know that. The problem is not that I don't have the facts. Like, I know eating brownies every day is not good for you, but when I'm having a bad day, guess what I'm going to do? I'm going to have a damn brownie, right? And if somebody yells at me for eating a brownie, guess what I'm going to do?
[18:45.6]
And I know what mine is. Mine is licorice. I'll go to Trader Joe's and buy two packages of licorice and they're gone in two days. Is it black licorice? Because that's not. Yes, I do like black liquor. Yeah. But if someone yells at me, creating a brownie, I'm just going to go eat another brownie because it's, it's my feel good.
[19:03.5]
So when people are not making good financial decisions and then we're yelling at them for not making good financial decisions, they continue to make bad financial decisions. It's crazy. Yeah. And showing them, one more charter graph isn't gonna make them feel any better.
[19:19.6]
They know, you know, particularly the shoppers, they know they're not putting enough in their 401k. They know they're probably going to run out of money. They know all that. Yeah, yeah. So what do you do when you find a couple or an individual and you know, the big thing in the industry is kind of like, well, risk tolerance.
[19:39.0]
Okay, well, you need to make as much as you can so you could keep up with inflation. And if you're making well. But I don't feel comfortable putting money in that XYZ company because there's too much risk. What are, what are you doing in your practice?
[19:54.9]
Because you are approaching different people differently about looking at their ability to find out what their risk tolerance is, depending on age and all kinds of variables. Do you have like a test that you give them or is it a, an intake questionnaire?
[20:14.4]
Well, I think no, we don't do the intake questionnaire. But what we do is we do a full financial plan so we know more about our client than most other people do. But those four question or six question risk tolerance questionnaires are crazy. Let me go back to anesthesia, because if my husband would actually tell people what the side effects of anesthesia are and then ask them if they want anesthesia, they would say no.
[20:40.3]
So we're doing the same thing in this industry. So besides doing a full financial plan, I really try to educate people and we use this word risk. Isn't risk a scary word? Like if you ask anybody, do you want a lot of risk? Who is going to say yes?
[20:56.3]
Well, you might get a crazy person that does cliff jumping. They're okay with it. But not my clients. We need to explain words like volatility and growth. That's a really big difference.
[21:12.2]
And when you can help people feel emotionally calm, like what is normal? You know, normal is we go through a bear market every four to five years. It usually lasts less than two years. You know my, I always use humor. I tell people, look, when you're investing in stocks, think of it like my weight.
[21:30.5]
It goes up and down, but the trajectory is always up. And then people laugh, but they remember it. And then to make them feel safe, safer. This is behavioral finance as well, really. We tell people any money that you need within two years must be in cash or cash equivalent.
[21:51.8]
So if you're retired in the withdrawal phase and withdrawing $5,000 a month, that's 120,000 every two years. You're still working, you may need a emergency fund. You might be planning on having a bathroom done or buying a car. It has to be kept in cash. We look at this from a psychological profile, not just math.
[22:12.8]
So if you put everything in one account and we're in a bear market, you log into your account, you're going to see it, you're going to see that red, you're going to see it's down. We actually break out cash and then we, for two years. And then we have another, pretty conservative account for two years.
[22:28.6]
The more growth stocks are in their separate account when they log on, they're going to see accounts that are still up, they're going to see them in the green and they're not going to feel as bad. So like money market accounts and, and maybe bond accounts or things that they have like that. Yeah, well that's, that's also an extremely valuable way to approach it.
[22:50.8]
You know, I like this behavioral finance way. Now no one sells out. Exactly. Exactly. So I just mentioned the 401k a minute ago and I. You call the shift from employer funded pensions to individual 401ks the big sin.
[23:12.6]
Yeah. Why was telling people, don't worry, you can save for retirement yourself, Such a destructive lie that people were doing. And in essence, you know, look, the bottom of the book says outsmart your anxiety for fearless retirement planning.
[23:32.7]
So let's talk about that fearless retirement planning. Well, first, you know, when four, when pensions essentially went away and 401ks came about, people didn't even know about that. Okay, so that's number one.
[23:48.2]
They didn't even, they didn't even understand. Also required you unlike, you know, a pension, there was no reduction in your paycheck. So now we're asking you to reduce your paycheck to save for your retirement. And that requires delayed gratification.
[24:05.2]
I don't know if you know, many Americans, we don't think that this is our area. Of specialty. And then to make it worse, we said, oh, this is so easy. You can do the investing yourself. How would somebody who's a teacher, a doctor, or plumber in their spare time, with working and raising a family understand the financial markets?
[24:25.5]
That's just crazy stuff. And that's why, you need a plan and you need to be responsible for the things that you know about. You know, like what I want my clients to know is, what do you want retirement to look like? How long do you think you're going to work?
[24:41.1]
You know, do you think you'll get a raise? What do you need to spend money on? What do you want your lifestyle about? They're the experts on that. And then we teach them about the difference between conservative and growth. And we show them in the plan. If you go more growth oriented than conservative, you get to retire 10 years earlier.
[24:58.7]
Now, how do you feel about growth? That's amazing. People like, I like growth. Yeah. I had gone from people who wanted all the money in the mattress, and then when I move more money into, like, money markets or bonds, like, why are we doing that? Like, because you still need to do that.
[25:15.9]
I know the growth has been great. And, you know, when the pandemic hit, everybody was slightly terrified. Terrified at the markets, terrified they were going to die. And people who had just retired were calling me and going, oh, my gosh, what am I going to do? I'm now in withdrawal and the markets are dropping.
[25:33.5]
Fastest drop into a bear market in six weeks. And I said, well, remember I have that two years in cash. Look at your account. Oh, and then, by the way, we have two more years and, like, sitting in some bonds and some conservative things, so we're good for quite a while. And then they're like, oh, okay, Mary, that's great.
[25:50.4]
How are you doing? And so you ease their ears, their fears and concerns. And I think those fluctuations. You know, I was speaking with a professor from Michigan State the other day that's going to come on, written many books, but he was talking about us as a society being able to embrace.
[26:14.0]
And I know this is a hard one for people. Ambiguity, meaning, you know, we're living in. The. People are so used to this. More certainty, but less certainty and more ambiguity. And. And he's saying it has to become kind of a way of life.
[26:32.5]
Right. It's got to become a way of, like, who we are, because we are not used to that. Would you have a comment about his comment around ambiguity during these times or until we. I mean, it Seems like there's such a shakeup going on that so many things are going to get reinvented.
[26:53.9]
You know, I mean, people are looking at Bitcoin now, and you would have never thought Bitcoin would have entered the picture the way it is now with the endorsements it's got and all the kind of stuff that's going on, and, you know, more. And then the. Then the securities Exchange Commission potentially rewriting laws, you know, and the whole money system seems to be moving.
[27:21.5]
Yeah, there's a lot of moving parts. But you know what? There's always been a lot of moving parts. If you go back and you study financial history, which I've done, you know, for the last 100, 150 years, all these things we're talking about, we know about, we see, that's not what takes us off the rails.
[27:37.1]
It's the things we don't. It's the bus you don't see. It's not the bus that you do say, you know, because a lot of the things that are happening now that are causing disruption, we know what caused the disruption, and we kind of know what the solution to that is. Now, that doesn't mean that solution is going to come back tomorrow or next week or, you know, maybe even later on this year.
[27:56.8]
But in the other thing that we think about, you know, if we worry about something like that's going to help prevent. Just, you know, worrying does not prevent Imagination. Yeah. Yeah. It doesn't prevent the bad things from happening.
[28:13.7]
And I think the only thing certain in this world is uncertainty. And, you know, like, I talk a lot about the rug puller. I've had so many times in my life where I thought, this is it. I'm on track, Things are going great. And then book, you know, something happens.
[28:29.8]
It's life. It's just life. Well, look, we have a financial icon, Warren Buffett, who's finally stepping down, from his huge company that he created. And, you know, if you've watched the moves he's made recently, just like you said, he's moved a lot of money into cash.
[28:49.4]
Yeah, he has a lot of money into cash. And I think there are people out there that, you know, you talked about this in the book. They put critical emphasis on these media personalities who you call, you know, yell at the callers.
[29:04.7]
Now, I wouldn't call Warren Buffett one of them. Oh, no, I love Warren. Yeah. By any means. He's about the calmest, coolest guy I've ever, ever seen on media. What's the psychological impact of shame based financial advice.
[29:19.9]
And why doesn't it work? Because, I mean I don't. The YouTube, everywhere the airways are filled with quote unquote experts. And I'm going to tell most of my listeners, not many of them are experts.
[29:36.3]
I was listening to one of the guys and he says, well, I've made million millions of dollars. What they forget to tell you is it cost them, a million and a half to get to where they were. And really their net profit was, you know, maybe $100,000.
[29:51.4]
You know what I mean? It's kind of like you're, you're listening to so many people tell you this and there is a lot of it out there and then it makes people feel less than. Oh, for sure. Yeah. No, I, I adore Brene Brown, who I think is the leading I do expert researcher on, on shame.
[30:09.7]
But I think it never became more clear to me than after I started the business and people would come in and see me. Yeah, great couples. And within the first five minutes they're apologizing to me, they're apologizing to me for not knowing more, for not doing more, for not saving more.
[30:26.7]
And we haven't even looked at anything yet. And as I say, there should have all over themselves. And you know, again, you know, I use humor to try to bring down the temperature. And I'm like, oh, you want me to judge you? Well, if that's the case, I'm going to have to charge you more because I don't like it and it's a lot of work.
[30:43.6]
And then they laugh and they relax. But I realized like, and people tell me, well, I was afraid to come in and see you. I was afraid to go see a financial advisor. My last financial advisor was always yelling at me. And yet this is.
[30:58.9]
The financial systems are so complex. You need a really high quality financial advisor. And because they listen to the people on the air who said, what did you do that for? And you know, you should be afraid, you should be embarrassed. They thought I was going to do that and I would never.
[31:16.6]
And I don't even go over what you should have done. Like, unless you have a time machine, that's not real helpful. This is where we are, this is where we want to go. You know, let's spend our time, you know, figuring out that path. And people need to be able to talk about money, they need to be able to get help on money.
[31:35.2]
And none of this is happening. I actually think it's doing terrible things, for people Getting really good quality help. I think it's making them more anxious, to be honest. Oh, for sure. You know, I, I'm not gonna. I think our social media craze there's got its goods and it's bads.
[31:52.3]
Right. And it certainly has done a lot to propel society forward. It's got a lot of negatives in it as well. So look, when, let's talk about a practical application. You got a, fear of missing out married to a fear of running out.
[32:10.9]
Let's just say that the man is the fear of missing out and the fear of running out. As a woman, actually, how do you work with a couple like that and how do you help them from destroying that relationship? Because they come in your office and I'm sure you see plenty of them that way.
[32:27.0]
Oh, yeah. And you. And you have to be able to, when it be the mediator. Yep. Well, and, and what you find out is they don't have the language to talk to each other. That, that is the problem.
[32:43.2]
And you know, the, the FOMO will say to the fo row, all you care about is money. I care about people. You know, the FOMO will say to the fomo, you're so irresponsible. All you do is spend money. You don't care about our future. So I don't let any of those conversations go on.
[32:59.2]
You know, I do explain the difference. So FOMO and fo ros to to come together and just slightly change their behaviors. There's a few key things that need to happen. If you have a severe fo row who doesn't want to spend a dime on anything the FOMO doesn't want to talk to, because what the FOMOs, again, hyper focused on today, on the vacation and enjoying life.
[33:24.0]
One of the key provisions to financial happiness, having enough money for the pleasures of today. You have to give them permission to spend the money. And that's where FOMOs don't understand. I don't want any of the money spent. Like, we don't need this. Why would we spend the money? So, you know, you can't have everything, but you can have something.
[33:40.9]
So I find out from the FOMO what's really important to you is having the bathroom done. More important than taking vacations, is going out to dinner, you know, more important than clothing? So let's prioritize it and let's put a budget together. So whatever that budget would be, you know, maybe it's $20,000 a year, maybe it's $2,000 a year.
[33:59.3]
Everybody's different. Then you have to show the photo. The photo loves plants. They love the plan. They love, you know, seeing whether they're on track and when. I can show them, like, look, he gets to spend this $20,000 a year, you know, take you and the family on vacation, and you are still going to meet all your retirement goals.
[34:21.9]
This is the amount of money you have now. This is what you're going to have at retirement. This is how much you're going to be able to withdraw every year. And then the sorrow will say, well, what if, what if? So we have a whole series of what if, what if Social Security goes away? You know, what if pensions decrease?
[34:38.0]
What if inflation goes up? Faux rows are really good at coming up with a list of, of what ifs. I love them for that. And we walk them through all that. And I said, in all those scenarios, you're still okay. Yeah. So why don't the two of you sit down and plan that family vacation that you're going to enjoy.
[34:57.6]
It's interesting, Mary, they probably still leave with a question, even though you've answered them all, because that's just a faux row for you. I mean, it's, you know, I can say I'm, I'll just raise my hand and I'll say, I'm the pharaoh in the marriage. And I, again, it was, it was programming.
[35:17.6]
And my wife has always said, hey, look, you're just like your mother. You know, here's the image of your mother. Thank you. And I said, well, you know, I, I actually take that as a blessing. Many of the things that I received from her were a blessing.
[35:33.6]
And this leads me to this question. You know, after your son Dan passed away, his death, you, said you evolved from a faux row to more of a FOMO. I get it.
[35:48.7]
I know right now I'll be 71 in less than a month. And I know what happens when you look at your finitude, no matter how it happened. So just a quick story. My daughter in law, 44 years old, two grandchildren with her and my oldest son, she rushed in, she had a artery, leakage.
[36:12.0]
She ended up with bypass surgery at 44 years old just last week. She's changed already her attitude about being with the family and being more close and more loving and so on.
[36:28.9]
So how do major life events like the one in your life change a relationship with money? And is it possible to consciously shift our money? Why? Right. In other words, for you, you had a very, very devastating thing happen, and it's always hard to lose a child.
[36:52.4]
But the reality is you're now taking a position of, hey, things will work out. I can see that in you through the whole conversation, that you're not a big worry ward anymore. It's like, hey, you know, we're all gonna. We're all gonna leave this planet at some time.
[37:09.4]
You know, the finitude is here. And that gets into the estate tax planning, which I'm sure you help these people with as well. So can you comment how you changed what it was like and why people maybe would want to take a middle of the road stance versus be so much of a faux row, which is what you were before?
[37:30.4]
Well, my definition of financial happiness, which I did do a Venn diagram because I'm, a nerd at heart, but, you know, it's having the money that you need today to spend on things that give you today's pleasure while still knowing that your financial future is safe.
[37:46.2]
And I realized I wasn't spending enough time on the things that would give me pleasure today. And one of the things, my husband was taking me down to the beach to, you know, try to make me feel better, calm me down. It was a tough situation. And I was looking at a beach condo, and I'm like, that's irresponsible.
[38:02.1]
We don't need that. You know, faux row was, was coming up, right? And, you know, which was ridiculous. You know, it's like, I'm emotional about my money. Yours, I'm not, but my money, I'm still very emotional. You should have had him give, give you some of that anesthesia that makes you talk so much and just laugh back out again, Yeah.
[38:23.6]
But one of the things that I did by the condo, by the way, and, I have friends down there all the time and family down there. I have my, my son's Widow and their four children are coming down there in about 10 days.
[38:40.4]
And, you know, they're going to love it. We're on the beach, we're playing together, you know, And I realize this is really what it's about, having this pleasure today. And I am certainly not anywhere near irresponsible. This is definitely not going to impact my retirement.
[38:55.8]
One, I'm probably never retiring, so I probably don't even need those funds. But what I had to tell myself to do it, it's like, well, you know, what if things went really wrong? I would sell the condo, I would have the money, you know, like, I would be fine. It's never going to happen.
[39:11.5]
But Phobos need to tell themselves these stories that when they go through the what if that we could always do this. It's the reassurance and it would be okay. Yeah, it's. It's the reassurance. So, you know, the money out of there, it's just in a different asset.
[39:27.9]
So if you did a balance sheet, or you did a personal financial statement, let's say it's like, hey, all I did was take money out of one pocket, put it into this thing, and it probably made more money than if I left it in the market because I threw ruined in a piece of real estate.
[39:43.3]
And I had fun there too. Oh my gosh. You can have fun as well. So. Yes, exactly. Is that, you know, I think that is kind of the thing is like shifting it and looking at as a shift versus a loss or an expense.
[39:59.5]
Right. It's, it's, it isn't an expense. It's an. And it's an. It's an investment. And truly a good investment. I'm glad that you made, you still have to. To spend money to go out to dinner and stay in nicer, you know, hotels. And I.
[40:15.2]
One of my things, my husband is better at like booking a nice hotel than I am and so I let him do it. It's like, don't ask me, I don't want to see it. I'll enjoy it when I'm there. Don't tell me what it costs per night, you know, versus the no tell motel that I might have picked out.
[40:34.9]
Yeah, you're like me. Oh, my God, we're peasing the pod. Because that would have been. How do I find that? Airbnb. Oh, my God. That thing was off the beaten path 10,000 miles and, and they had dogs barking and. Yeah, I get you.
[40:52.1]
So look, you, you call for major changes in the financial services industry from standardizing titles to requiring fiduciary, duty. If you could wave a magic wand and kind of fix three things tomorrow, what would they be?
[41:08.9]
What would you want to have Happen? The number one thing I want to see changed is that, FINRA, the regulatory arm, has 253 financial designations on there. Two of them that are not there are financial advisor and financial planner.
[41:25.2]
So anybody can call themselves the financial advisor and financial planner. The two most search for terms. You know the training a doctor has. You know, the training a plumber has. You do not know the training a financial advisor has. That is a big problem. And you know, they, they do all These different rules out there and, you know, thousands of pages of legislation, but they haven't standardized this yet.
[41:48.3]
And they need to, because people, you know, like I tell people, don't learn about stocks. Learn how to research who you're talking to. You know, what are their qualifications, what do they know? I mean, that's, that's even more important. And the fiduciary rule is that, you know, you have to put your client's interest ahead of yours, like, duh.
[42:07.7]
But nonetheless, you know, and every financial advisor and financial planner, standardize the titles. They should all be subject to fiduciary. I mean, that's just a no brainer. And, that's, to me, those are the two biggest.
[42:25.6]
But what is slowly happening? The cfp, the Certified Financial Planning Board, has now included behavioral finance into their training. So now you have to take like a master's level course on that, which I think is a great start. It is, but we need to do more of it.
[42:41.9]
We need to recognize it. You know, financial advisors just want to prove to you how smart they are. Let me show you this fancy charter graph. Let me explain. Alpha, beta, standard deviation, all the things that you would rather shoot yourself than learn about. I actually think that, you know, one of the best things that I did, I did it later in life, but I had, I had actually gotten out of the financial services business, as you knew.
[43:06.7]
I did the same thing you did pretty much, was I went back and got a degree in spiritual psychology. And I think that as someone who has a master's in psychology, you really need to have a master's in psychology to deal with clients.
[43:24.8]
No matter what you're doing. Now what I do is when I'm not doing this podcast show, I'm working with families, with family succession planning. And so the reality is, is that you really use more psychology than you do finance when it comes.
[43:42.4]
The math is easy. Yeah, the math becomes pretty easy is right, because it is what it is. So look for someone out there listening to this podcast right now who recognizes themselves, you know, and they say they feel overwhelmed about where to start, what to do next.
[43:59.9]
What's the next step? What should steps should they take on Monday morning? You would advise them. If they're like just feeling completely overwhelmed about their finances and where they're going and their investments and, they just need help.
[44:17.1]
What would you tell them? Well, I really think that people need a really high quality financial advisor. My office, we're all certified financial planners. Doesn't guarantee that that's the person that you want. But it's a, it's a pretty good start.
[44:33.7]
And there's some other good ones out there, but make an appointment, see the person, and if that person shames you, if that person isn't asking you a lot of questions, it's not the right person, go find another one. You know, interview three or four, who you're comfortable with, who thinks, who you think is really talking to you, who understand this, because I assure you, they're out there.
[44:55.4]
Maybe not super easy to find, but they're out there. And particularly the FOMO fo row couples. But a lot of times all my couples, the number of people that tell me they really don't talk about money until they're in our office, they want to be sitting down with us to talk to us. And if that's what you need, that's great.
[45:12.2]
And it's not your job to know alpha beta, standard deviation. It really isn't. You know, it's your job to do the savings, to earn the money, to, you know, listen to a really good financial planner.
[45:28.1]
That's, that's all you really need to do. Well, Mary, you're a broker dealer. And I want to tell our listeners, because we'll put the link, but, when you Google, Mary Clement Evans name or you look far up in the book, the website that it's called Evans well Strategies, I come up to one that says raymondjames.com forward/evanswealthstrategies.
[45:52.0]
That's one way they can get to you. Can they also get to you just by putting in your name? Or is there a separate website or is this the best way for them to kind of get through to you? Is raymondjames.com forward/evanswealth strategies?
[46:07.1]
I don't work for Raymond James. I trade through them. So they actually physically host the site, but we're an independent. It's. It's evanswealthstrategies.com we'll take you there. Okay. And, Mary clementsevans.com will tell you more about the book and behavioral finance, though.
[46:25.3]
And we'll also put a link to Mary's LinkedIn where you can find out more about her there and her posts that she makes, and all the things that she's doing there. So. And there's also a picture of the building that she works in the page there.
[46:43.3]
But it's also a great way to learn. You said do your research about somebody. I find that LinkedIn is a great way to actually find out more about the people that you're working with in their past history. So, I appreciate you being on the show today, speaking about your book, Emotionally invested.
[47:04.7]
And I think for the people out there today that feel any uncertainty about our times, any uncertainty about, you know, make like they're living with an opposite like we were just talking about. Go, go find somebody, even if they're not in your area.
[47:22.2]
I'm sure you can email Mary through here or going to her website, and one of her people in her office will make certain, Nicole, that she gets in touch with her and you guys have a talk. But I do know that wealth advisors, if they're licensed in all the states, can deal with people almost anywhere.
[47:41.6]
How many states are you actually licensed in to deal? Are you just in PA or are you in a bunch of other states, too? I think we're in about 30. I don't. I don't even know that I've track of it anymore, so. So you could actually work with a lot of people in very different areas that. Correct. I can.
[47:56.7]
But, you know, my mission here is really, you know, it's for people to understand themselves, find a great advisor. You know, I can't help millions and millions of people personally, not that many hours in the day, but I'm hoping my book does that and it shows you how to interview an advisor, you know?
[48:13.5]
Yeah. So people to feel better. This is a, again, this is a wonderful book for anybody who's kind of just starting out and wants to learn more, about how to invest, how to not be confused, how to not be overwhelmed, but to feel comfortable.
[48:32.7]
And I think that's the key, is you want to feel comfortable. You don't want to have to run down to your computer every morning and look to see what's happening. You want to leave that up to your advisor, who's proactive, which I'm sure Mary and her team is. So thank you.
[48:49.4]
Thank you so much. Namaste to you. Thanks for being on the show. Thanks for spending time with us this morning and, letting our listeners know about your new book. And we'll make sure that it gets out there on all the social media channels so everybody can listen to this podcast. Well, thank you, Greg.
[49:05.5]
It's really been a pleasure and an honor to be on your show and a lot of fun talking to you as well. I knew this was going to be a good interview. It was just fun. Yeah, we're, we're going to solve all the problems of the world. Two peas in a pod.
[49:21.4]
Okay. For sure. Thank you for listening to this podcast on Inside Personal Growth. We appreciate your support. And for more information about new podcasts, please go to inside personal growth.com or any of your favorite channels to listen to our podcast.
[49:37.9]
Thanks again and have a wonderful day.
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Inside Personal Growth with Greg Voisen · Podcast 1237: Matthew Fox on The Tao of Thomas Aquinas and Why Trump’s MAGA Movement Embodies the Antichrist ArchetypeIn one of the most urgent and thought-provoking episodes of Inside Personal Growth, host Greg Voisen welcomes back renowned theologian, spiritual activist, and author Matthew Fox for a deep and daring conversation. Fox joins the show to discuss his two powerful books: Trump & the MAGA Movement as Anti-Christ: A Handbook for the 2024 Election and The Tao of Thomas Aquinas: Fierce Wisdom for Hard Times.
With decades of theological insight and social critique under his belt, Fox boldly addresses the spiritual undercurrents of today’s political climate—drawing parallels between Aquinas’ mystical teachings and the archetype of the Antichrist as embodied in Trump’s MAGA movement.
Aquinas: Radical Wisdom for a Fractured WorldIn The Tao of Thomas Aquinas, Fox reclaims the 13th-century theologian not as a rigid scholastic but as a bold, revolutionary mystic. Aquinas, he says, was deeply in love with creation and fierce in his call for compassion and justice. Rather than fixating on heaven and hell, Aquinas believed that “the first and primary meaning of salvation is to preserve things in the good.” In a world facing climate collapse, war, and social fragmentation, this message rings louder than ever.
Fox also reveals a lesser-known Aquinas: the non-dualist, the lover of nature, the advocate for ecstasy as a divine experience. His teachings on body-soul unity, justice, and biophilia offer a powerful spiritual antidote to today’s culture of division and despair.
Trump & the Rise of the Antichrist ArchetypeIn sharp contrast to Aquinas’ vision stands what Fox describes in his other book: Trump and the MAGA Movement as Anti-Christ. While the term “Antichrist” has often been misused by fundamentalists, Fox reclaims it as a Jungian archetype—a powerful symbol of spiritual deception, fear, and authoritarianism cloaked in false religiosity.
According to Fox, the MAGA movement mirrors this archetype with chilling accuracy: lies over truth, control over compassion, and chaos over community. Drawing from biblical texts, mysticism, and political analysis, he names what many are afraid to: that spiritual fascism is on the rise and must be confronted—not just politically, but morally and theologically.
Awakening Is the First ResurrectionOne of the most moving moments in the conversation comes when Fox reminds us that according to Aquinas, there are two resurrections. The first? Waking up in this life. The second? Whatever comes after.
In other words, the call isn’t to wait passively for change—it’s to become the change, through spiritual maturity, sacred activism, and fierce compassion. Fox urges listeners to resist despair and instead take action in all spheres of life—education, law, media, politics, and especially faith communities.
The Role of Joy and Sacred CommunityDespite the weight of the topics discussed, this episode is not without hope. Fox speaks of joy as humanity’s noblest act and reminds us that in the face of darkness, we must also celebrate life, creativity, and connection. He points to the role of community, artists, teachers, and spiritual seekers in leading the next phase of human evolution.
Learn More & Get InvolvedMatthew Fox’s work continues to be a light in uncertain times. You can explore his teachings, writings, and meditations through the following platforms:
- Trump & the MAGA Movement as Anti-Christ: A Handbook for the 2024 Election
- The Tao of Thomas Aquinas: Fierce Wisdom for Hard Times
- MatthewFox.org
- The Cosmic Mass
- Order of the Sacred Earth
- Daily Meditations with Matthew Fox
And connect with him on social media:
Instagram
Facebook
Twitter / X
Listen to the Full EpisodeIf you’re feeling the pull to awaken, question, and act—this episode is for you.
Tune in to Inside Personal Growth and discover how fierce wisdom, spiritual courage, and radical joy can light the path forward in our most uncertain times.
You may also refer to the transcripts below for the full transcription (not edited) of the interview.
Interview Transcipt -Not EditedEmailDownloadNew Tab[A: 00:00.5]
Welcome to Inside Personal Growth podcast. Deep dive with us as we unlock the secrets to personal development, empowering you to thrive here. Growth isn't just a goal, it's a journey. Tune in, transform, and take your life to the next level by listening to just one of our podcasts.
[A: 00:20.0]
Well, welcome back to Inside Personal Growth. This is Greg Voice and the host of Inside Personal Growth. And joining us from Vallejo, California, is Matthew Fox. And as you can see by Matthew's office, he's a busy writer. Matthew, good day to you.
[A: 00:36.9]
How are you?
[B: 00:38.4]
Yeah, a busy writer. And none of you a good father.
[A: 00:43.3]
Well, it's a pleasure having you back on the show again. You've been on the show many times for previous books, and I think for our listeners, they're going to get a little bit of background about you, and then we're going to get into speaking with, you about a couple of your books.
[A: 01:00.5]
But, Matthew, was an Episcopal priest. He's author of 43 books on culture and spirituality, including original the Coming of the Cosmic Christ, a spiritual named, Compassion, and the Reinvention of Work.
[A: 01:20.8]
His honors include the Abbey Courage of a Conscience Peace Award. Other recipients include the Dalai Lama, Mother Teresa, Rosa Parks, and, Maya Angelou. And there's more here than I could say about Matthew.
[A: 01:36.7]
For you who want to learn more, just go to matthewfox.com we'll put a link up to the website as well. But today we have two books that we're going to discuss, and we've got a bridge in between these.
[A: 01:52.6]
I'm going to hold this one up and we'll actually slide this across the screen for those listeners out there. It's called the Dao of the Thomas Aquinas, Fierce Wisdom for Hard Times, which we all could use right now.
[A: 02:08.5]
And then this other kind of opposing book is Trump the Mega Movement, or the Mega Movement as Antichrist. Interestingly, the tough times might have been caused by the Antichrist.
[A: 02:27.7]
But any rate, I think it's all perspective. But, Matthew, welcome back to the show. We'll put links to the previous, shows as well. It's always an honor to have you on. I know you wrote me about being on, actually quite some time ago about that book that you had on Trump the Mega Movement as Antichrist.
[A: 02:48.8]
And I didn't respond in time, but here we are. It's never too late. So look, in the Dao of Thomas Aquinas, you kind of present Aquinas as a bold, revolutionary thinker, rather than this rigid Systemized kind of person, that he's portrayed as.
[A: 03:11.1]
What inspired you to kind of reclaim this version of Aquinas? And why do you think his true character has been obscured throughout history? It is an interesting one and I think for scholars and non scholars alike, this pertains to people we're kind of moving through everyday life.
[B: 03:35.6]
Right, right. Well, first of all, thank you for your program. It's been a while, but I love how your program has grown and kept up with the social Media revolution. So it's good to see you again.
[B: 03:52.5]
Yes, I think, Aquinas has gotten a, bad eye if you will, because he was in rope for a couple of years as kind of orthodox hatchet man, to keep people in line. But I actually studied with one of the greatest, Aquinas, scholars ever.
[B: 04:13.6]
Father Chenau, C E G N U. A French, Dominican and great historian. And his take on Aquinas was very much his own inspiration. The prophetic side of Aquinas, rarely comes through when you're dealing with dogma and we're repeating the scholastic modality of his Summa, theologica.
[B: 04:41.2]
But what I did in my book that preceded this one, the sure Joy, it's a very big one. I translated books that have never been in English or German or French or even Italian before written by Aquinas, especially his, his commentaries on Scripture like Jeremiah and Isaiah and all this and the Psalms.
[B: 04:59.9]
And the Psalms. And I found him there to be so much more free minded because he was liberated from the scholastic structure, you see, and the scholastic structure can keep him very, cold and impersonal.
[B: 05:15.6]
And whereas his real passion and so really come through. It comes through in a lot of his teachings that you find in the scholastic documents. But, but they really come through in his commentaries on Scripture. For example, he says, the fire that Jesus came to set on the earth is compassion.
[B: 05:36.2]
Compassion is the fire that Jesus came to set in the earth. And what I set out to do in this small book and very readable book, as you say, is to take one sentence from Aquinas. Each chapter title is a sentence from Aquinas. And each sentence I think is enough to wake you up.
[B: 05:54.3]
He says, for example, the true, first and primary meaning of salvation is this. To preserve things in the good. See, he's not saying anything about heaven and hell. He's saying the first and primary meaning of to preserve things in the good.
[B: 06:13.3]
Well, isn't that what the whole ecological movement has to be about? Isn't that what we're fighting with global warming? We're not preserving things in the good for future generations, not only of humans, but of any animals and sea creatures and all the rest rainforest, we're tearing it all down.
[B: 06:30.7]
We're not preserving the good. Now if that's not a 21st century definition of salvation, I've never heard of one.
[A: 06:37.4]
And he says that's a good one. Actually, they're all good. You talk about his scholarliness and him not getting this, recognition drew me to this comment by a lady who authored a book, Stop Seeking Start Finding.
[A: 06:58.0]
Jan Phillips. She was a nun in the Catholic Church. You maybe don't know her or you don't know her at all, but she was recently on and she spoke about when they were, when she was becoming a nun. The priests would come in and in this one class when these young women were about 18 years old.
[A: 07:17.4]
And this relates directly to the scholarliness of this, he said, look, you have to learn how to be spiritual. We're not going to use any of the books. All the books are going on the top shelf.
[A: 07:33.6]
She said, she said all these 18 year old little girls who are going to become nuns were like, oh my God, we don't know because we're programmed. We need to read all these books. And he said, no, you're going to learn how to be spiritual in my class and it doesn't require that you read all of those books.
[A: 07:53.2]
Now I think that was a really kind of interesting, unique approach. And I, and I, the reason I mentioned it is because, you know, I think that when people sometimes come from such a scholarly standpoint, they get like a bad rap.
[A: 08:08.4]
Right? And you write that the experience of God must not be restricted to the few or to the old. This is the experience of God. How might Aquinas in his democratic approach to spirituality inform our understanding of this religious experience in today's fragmented society?
[A: 08:33.2]
Now, I would say instead of religious, I would say spiritual experience. Right?
[B: 08:41.2]
Yes. And that is the first chapter, that quote that you cited, that's from Aquinas. The experience of God must not be restricted to the few or to the old. So again, he's talking about the experience and that's not, as you say, religion so much as it is spirituality.
[B: 08:57.5]
And what he's saying is that the experience of ecstasy, and that's the word he uses, is an experience of God. And he says where he gets that, he gets it from the Song of Songs, the beautiful book in the Hebrew Bible about lovemaking, as a theophany, as mysticism.
[B: 09:18.6]
But of course, there have been people through the century who's tried to clean that book up and say, oh, no, no, no, it's not that. It's about God loving the church or God loving Jesus. But ask Getty Jew, ask Rabbi Heschel. The Jewish people are told on the Sabbath to do two things.
[B: 09:36.1]
Read the Song of Songs and make love with their partner. So, that's the tradition. And Aquinas, picks up on that, where he says that. He says all our experiences of ecstasy are an experience of the divine.
[B: 09:52.8]
And it should not be restricted, as you said, just the literate ones.
[A: 09:59.1]
So why is it, this vow of celibacy? And I get it. Jan was kicked out of the church because she was gay, and they found out she was having an affair with one of the other nuns. So literally, the Catholic Church kicked her out. So this kind of vow of celibacy, which has always been part of the Catholic religion and many of the Christian religions, and obviously you would know because you were there, you lived it.
[A: 10:26.8]
What is it? Because Aquinas stated that sins of the flesh take you toward God, sins of the spirit take you away from God. This seems counterintuitive to traditional religious teachings. So I want you to kind of explain, the distinction and how it might reshape our approach to morality.
[A: 10:48.8]
Because that's a big one.
[B: 10:51.0]
Right? Well, first of all, let me say that, of course, celibacy has not always been part of the Christian, demand on clergy that, after all, St. Peter and all the early church, were married, except for Paul.
[B: 11:08.2]
And so, this came later in the church, and it became a law in the 12th century. So that's quite late, really. And then, of course, the Reformation undid it entirely. But back to your question. And, Aquinas saying, the sins of the spirit take you away from God, but sins of the flesh take you toward God.
[B: 11:27.8]
But first of all, what are the sins of the spirit? Things like greed. There's a lot of that going on today. It's become institutionalized in our politics. Greed, acedia, which has been mistranslated as sloth.
[B: 11:44.8]
But Aquinas calls it the lack of energy to begin new things. So it's like passivity, couch potatoitis. That's acedia. The lack of energy to start new things or. Or to resist and revolt against current things that are off center.
[B: 12:02.7]
And, of course, envy. And Hatred and cold heartedness. So these. And arrogance. I don't think pride is a sin. I think pride has been beaten, up by too much bad theology.
[B: 12:20.0]
But arrogance is. Arrogance is the source of, of racism and sexism and homophobia and all kinds of isms that we have floating around. So these are sins of the spirit. And that's why a quantity say these things take you from God.
[B: 12:35.0]
Because God is a God of justice and compassion and caring. But why does he say that sins of the flesh take you toward God. His key word in saying that is the word communion. Evening. The sins of the flesh have a search for communion. There is search for unity and for reunion.
[B: 12:53.1]
And, again, you have that in the Song of Songs, which has been described as the Genesis story rewritten, that it's a return to the Garden of Eden. It's a return to, the spontaneity and the joy and the beauty of lovemaking in all of its forms.
[A: 13:15.0]
Well, he was way ahead of his time, right?
[B: 13:17.3]
He was way ahead of his time. Absolutely. Yeah.
[A: 13:22.6]
The thing is though, I want to get to this question because it's really important and not to interrupt you, but it goes along with what you were just speaking about. This book, and I'm going to hold it back up for our audience, emphasizes Aquinas non dualistic worldview, particularly regarding body underline soul and soul underline.
[A: 13:50.5]
How does this non dualism challenge both religious fundamentalism and secular materialism in our current cultural climate? Now, here's what I've noticed you have too. I'm sure there's been a migration away from traditional religion toward more spirituality.
[A: 14:13.4]
However you want to define that, you know more about this than I do. Although I observe it, you actually study it. And what I see happening is not where young people today are bringing their kids up, taking them to church.
[A: 14:31.1]
Right. Per se. They're finding their own path. It's almost like they're making it up. So it's a mixture of, you know, Buddhism and a mixture of, you know, Daoism and whatever it might be, Zen. And you see this happening more and more and more.
[A: 14:50.1]
What do you think's going on and what do you think this non dualistic worldview really, in this case with Aquinas was, was all about?
[B: 15:00.2]
Well, first about the non dualism. What Aquinas is doing is taking on Plato and Neoplatonists because they dominated. Pilates, lived in the 13th century. And, from about the third century on, the Neoplatonic philosophy really dominated in the intellectual, life of Christianity.
[B: 15:19.5]
But Plato was dualistic. He separated spirit from matter. And St. Augustine was his biggest disciple in the Christian church. And Augustine actually said, spirit is whatever is not matter. Well, that's Neoplatonic, and it's utterly dualistic.
[B: 15:38.2]
And Aquinas said spirit is the elan and the vitality in everything. In a blade of grass, in a tree, in a horse, in us. So he's non dualistic. And that's why he chose Aristotle over Plato as a foundational philosopher.
[B: 15:54.5]
Because Aristotle, he says Aristotle does not denigrate matter. That's what Aquinas said about Aristotle. And it's true. Aristotle was a scientist and he was trying to be. He talks about active potentiality, that they go together, that matter and spirit are, form and matter, and they go together.
[B: 16:12.7]
And that's how our bodies work, and that's how things work in the world. So from that point of view, Aquinas really was a revolution in the 13th century, and he got condemned for it. After he died, three bishops condemned him.
[A: 16:25.5]
Three.
[B: 16:25.9]
Two in Oxford and one in Paris, where he was actually teaching. So it was very controversial, but he really hung in there with that. But now question about religion versus spirituality. Obviously, the Christian religion has played a tremendous historical role in the West.
[B: 16:43.5]
And, when it came, when Europeans, European Christians, so called, came to the Americas because Columbus got lost and ended up here, he did not discover America. It had been discovered a long time before. These continents we now know.
[B: 16:59.7]
But the fact is, though, he brought with him these missionary types, and their whole emphasis was on redemption. What they did to these indigenous people is horrible. The numbers went from 80 million when he landed to about 8 or 10 million after a few generations.
[B: 17:17.7]
Now, a lot of it was disease and not intentional, but a lot of it was intentional, et cetera. So the church carries a big burden, organized religion does when it gets wrapped up in politics, which of course takes us to today's situation that you want to talk about soon.
[B: 17:35.4]
But the point is that, as more and more Westerners read our history and the church's involvement in it, it is not at all, edifying or pretty. For example, these stories have come out last few years about the indigenous schools in Canada and the United States, where they rip these kids from their parents, from their culture, from their language, from their religion, and put them all into these schools and beat them, to beat the language out of them and everything else.
[B: 18:08.3]
I mean, horrible things. Now, they were done in the name of the church. Some were church schools. But some were government schools, so they're also done in the name of the American government. But in any case, it's obviously colonialism at its worst, and, those realities have to be addressed.
[B: 18:24.9]
Now, to his credit, Pope Francis apologized for the document written in the 15th century, right at the time that Columbus was setting sail for the first time, which was called the Doctrine of Discovery, which gave permission to the kings and queens of Portugal and Spain and so forth, who were Catholic countries, supposedly to steal Africans from Africa and to abuse the indigenous people of the Americas.
[B: 18:54.6]
Because according to those popes of the 15th century, they were pagan and they were not Christians, or what do they know about God? So that horrible, green light was given in the name of papal encyclicals in the 15th century.
[B: 19:10.0]
Pope Francis, finally here in the 21st century, apologized. But, you know, apologies are not enough. You have to look harder at these traditions and say, how did you this happened, that the Christian church went from being a persecuted church by their own empire in the first century to being a persecuting church in the 15th, 16th, 17th century.
[B: 19:34.8]
And a lot of people are, And then also how much life that is, how much spirituality is there in the current structures I do think we've had. Professor was a good pope. I think I have hope for this new pope. I think that trying to recover the healthy teachings of Christianity and practices, is a real important effort today.
[B: 19:59.1]
And the fact is, the Catholic Church is one of the oldest organizations in the world and largest in terms of, being present on all the continents. So humanity can't just throw off his past that easily. It has to renew it.
[B: 20:14.6]
That's what the Vatican Council tried to do in the 60s, and then, two popes for 34 years resisted that. And now with Pope Francis and this pope, I think they will try to bring out a new version of Christianity that is closer to the teachings of Jesus, and one that's ecumenical, that finds the wisdom in Buddhism and in other, churches and so forth.
[A: 20:41.1]
I hope you're right, because we need a major shift, we need a seismic shift in what's going on. And, you know, that leads us now to kind of this book. Okay, so this is Trump. And the mega movement.
[A: 20:57.9]
And as Antichrist, and, you know, for as long as I've been alive, and I'm not quite as old as you, but close, I've seen religions, and I'm just going to say this, it's my podcast, do more to divide people than actually unite and bring people together.
[A: 21:15.3]
I've also seen this Antichrist raise its head, so many times through leaders throughout countries, not just Trump. I'm talking about leaders in all other areas that want to repress populations of people from expression, abilities to express themselves.
[A: 21:36.5]
Pope hall, you know, the list goes on and on and on. We can see where these improprieties to so many people, to control people, to control their thinking, to control what they are, is there.
[A: 21:51.7]
So in both books, you explore this concept as Christ is an archetype. And so how does your understanding of the Christ archetype and form the interpretation of what we're referring to? And what I've just talked about is the Antichrist archetyped.
[A: 22:09.9]
And how do you apply that to contemporary politics? Because I'm just going to say, for anyone listens to this show, they're probably in an age range where, you know, they're in their 30s to their 70s or maybe 80s. They've seen enough of this.
[A: 22:27.0]
And I would say most people are fed up.
[B: 22:34.5]
Yes. And I'll say, too, in all my writings, I don't know if I've ever talked about the Antichrist before this book, because that term Antichrist has been owned and hijacked by the very right wing, the fundamentalist version of Christianity.
[B: 22:50.9]
And I'm no were in that circle.
[A: 22:54.3]
Well, until Trump came along.
[B: 22:56.3]
Until Trump came along. And not just Trump, but his Christian nationalism and his enablers who claim that they're Christians. And they're doing the opposite.
[A: 23:09.8]
Do you want to know something, Matthew, that we've seen Now, I know you and Dennis, who's there. This is important to note. My listeners need to note this. So when we take this podcast and we put it on YouTube and we put ads on YouTube that say something negative.
[A: 23:36.0]
YouTube doesn't approve it.
[B: 23:41.2]
Okay, negative about what?
[A: 23:42.5]
Plus, the censorship is alive and well in these companies because of the fear of the repercussions of Donald Trump.
[B: 23:56.5]
Well, that's what I say. The first sign.
[A: 23:59.2]
Wake up.
[B: 24:00.2]
Is fear, the spread of fear. And lies. And lies. And of course, Trump's whole public life has been a, a volcano of lies. And, in the tradition, lies are the sign of Satan, of the Antichrist.
[B: 24:19.7]
The Antichrist is a, is a shortcut for evil, but it's an archetype. And Carl Jung wrote about it as an archetype, and he said it's very attractive because it leads with what you think is spiritual power and beauty.
[B: 24:35.7]
But in fact, when you go deeper, you get lies, you get fear. You get, like, you Have. Now, this book was born over an experience I had last summer. I was teaching for a week in Orvieto, Italy. And, I went to visit the cathedral there.
[B: 24:52.5]
It's a very beautiful cathedral. And an Italian friend took me, didn't say a word, but took me to this large chapel inside the cathedral that had this huge fresco painted in 1501 and didn't say anything about it. I just stared. And the first thing I said, I said out loud, I said, it feels like Donald Trump.
[B: 25:12.0]
Then I looked at the title, and the title said, Antichrist Deeds and Preaching. And there are about. I counted 172 figures in the painting. And I'm glad we're going to show the painting because in the background there are these ninja figures, young people in black.
[B: 25:31.7]
One interpreter said, this is a Ku Klux Klan in black instead of white. But to me it pictures exactly Musk's teams that are going around destroying usaid, destroying Social Security, destroying Medicaid and all the rest.
[B: 25:47.8]
That, I mean, it's unbelievably, intuitive, if you will, and prophetic. But that is where I said it's time for the left to pick up on the, on the language of the archetype of the Antichrist. Because obviously the archetype of the Christ stands for justice and peace and beauty and goodness and all those things we can project on Christ, or it can project it on Isaiah or on the Buddha or wherever you want to project it on, but that's what Christ is.
[B: 26:17.4]
But the Antichrist would be the opposite of those things. Not truth, but lies, not light, but darkness, not joy, not. But control, not, love, but hate. And I mean this whole system now and then Project 2025, and I have two chapters on that in this book.
[B: 26:38.8]
You can see there what's in stake for us and what is really going on. That's the blueprint, and it is a fascist blueprint. And remember that fascism is intrinsic, what I call Christofascism.
[B: 26:54.6]
There is a fascist movement in Christianity, in the Catholic Church. The Opus DEI is a very obvious example of that. And it is through the Opus DEI that we have people like the six far right Supreme Court judges we have, they came through Leonardo Leo, who was very influenced by that right wing fascist movement begun by a fascist priest in fascist Spain in the 1920s.
[B: 27:23.0]
That movement, and it was pushed by popes John Paul II and Benedict xvi, but not Francis. He didn't make any fascist cardinal or bishop. A cardinal, including the bishop of the largest diocese in North America.
[B: 27:39.6]
Which is Los Angeles. That fellow archbishop there went to a Opus DEI seminary, et cetera. So we have to name these, movements in religion. And, it's not just, of course, Christianity.
[B: 27:57.3]
It's the evangelical wing, of course, of the fundamentalists and Protestants too, who are so out front in this administration. One of them, we know, has an office in the West Wing, where she's putting her version of religion and Christianity into a mix, because he's close to Trump.
[B: 28:18.2]
And so there is a very sick religion involved in this whole movement, of, neo fascism that America is, inventing at this time.
[A: 28:31.1]
Well, and I'm happy that you've disclosed it through this book. And I think that disclosure like this. One of the things I want to talk with you about is you've written extensively about what you call creation spirituality.
[A: 28:49.6]
How does this perspective kind of inform both the reading of Aquinas, and your critique of contemporary politics? Because that really, I mean, your new evolution of creation spirituality is something people need to know about versus all of this dogma that has been fed through all these other sources.
[A: 29:17.0]
And as you were speaking about the fascism that exists that I don't think many people really have an awareness of, you know, that the politics and the fascism that's going on in the political system is alive and well.
[B: 29:34.4]
Yes. And a lot of it is wrapped in religious, covering. Yes. Well, Aquinas was so in love with creation, he takes this line from the psalm. The psalm says, they should be drunk with the beauty of thy house.
[B: 29:49.4]
And he says, that is the universe. Then we're here to get drunk on the universe. Now, what a moment in history to get drunk in the universe when we've discovered in our lifetime the universe is 2 trillion galaxies big, each with hundreds of billions of stars.
[B: 30:05.1]
We're receiving daily these amazing pictures and stories through Webb telescope and so forth about the history of this universe. I mean, it is such a time for the human mind to explode with this new creation story from science about how we got here, how Earth got here, how special Earth is, how our sun came along at the right time, and the moon, et cetera, et cetera.
[B: 30:30.4]
I mean, it's just full of miracles. If you define miracles as experiences of the sacred and. And marvels, as Einstein defined miracles as marvels. Yes, it's a marvel that we're here at all. And it took 13.8 billion years.
[B: 30:46.9]
So this is a way for us to start over. Because this new creation story from science, it holds all people and all religions and all cultures together. When you look at creation stories in the history of humanity, these are what keep tribes together.
[B: 31:03.9]
And now we are one tribe trying to, trying to survive on a planet that we're destroying. And hey, let's wake up is just what you said. We need a, seismic shift. Here is the shift. And again, Aquinas said 13th century revelation comes in two volumes.
[B: 31:23.9]
Nature and the Bible, not just the Bible. Since the 16th century, all of Protestantism told us that Revelation is in the Bible. It's all in that one book. Well it ain't, it's in science because it's in nature.
[B: 31:39.7]
And we need both things humming. And besides, now we all know there are many Bibles, there are many sacred books. There are the Upanishads and the Vedas and the Dao Te Ching and so many scriptures, sacred books around the world.
[B: 31:57.0]
We can, we can honor them all. There's the Quran. And look, what do they have in common? What they all have in common is they're trying to teach, humanity that we're capable of compassion. Most used adjective in the Quran for Allah is Allah, the compassionate one.
[B: 32:15.8]
And in Judaism, compassion is the secret name for God. And Jesus being a Jew, let the secret out of the bag. And in Luke 6 when he says, be you compassionate as you grew into heaven is compassionate. So all world religions are saying we're capable of godlike activity of love, forgiveness, beauty and compassion and justice.
[B: 32:39.8]
Justice guarantees compassion because you need structures that are balanced and fair. These strive for it in order that compassion can flow. So, this is the time we're living in. And this is where spirituality really comes alive.
[B: 32:55.5]
And this is where the Project 2025 is the opposite of what Christ is teaching. And all major religions are teaching because it is about a small, powerful group. Now we're seeing their names and their bank accounts.
[B: 33:11.6]
These are the billionaires in America who want $400 billion, deal less taxes. But of course, who's going to pay for that? It's the poor and the middle class. We're already paying for it. So that's what's going on in American politics.
[B: 33:27.6]
And that's why you can say it's about the Christ archetype, the Christ energy versus the Antichrist energy.
[A: 33:35.6]
What is it? I mean, look, social media has played such a big role in this whole evolution of. We can go back to the election of Donald Trump, and see that social media played a big role.
[A: 33:51.1]
You and I are on social media today. We're on a channel which is, I thankfully say, is espousing goodwill and compassion and hope and understanding. And it's one of the reasons I still do it, because the airwaves are so filled with so much of the other stuff.
[A: 34:11.4]
And that stuff created the chasm which created the divide. And so what I would like to ask you about is, you know, we find people taking these roles and doing just heinous acts of crime on other folks, as a result of being influenced by what's going on.
[A: 34:35.4]
And just even social media or the airwaves. You describe the Antichrist as seductive and alluring. What spiritual practices or perspectives do you believe help people resist these attractions and return to what you call biosphilia rather than necrophobia or necrophilia?
[A: 34:59.8]
Hopefully I said that right. But I get what you mean. The point is, is that are we going to return to some place where we treat our brothers and sisters with understanding, with compassion, with the kind of things that bring the world together, not divide them?
[A: 35:23.9]
We've seen so much, though, Matthew, and it hits in so many different areas in the airwaves every day. Something happens, some shooting at a school or somebody shooting up somebody else.
[A: 35:39.7]
And it just seems like it is chaotic. I know you don't have a prescription for this, but maybe you have some kind words that might get out in the airways to help our listeners see that this isn't really the world we live in.
[B: 36:00.6]
The word chaotic that you used I think is really powerful word today. And it's interesting. In the 12th century, Hildegard of Bingen, who was a great mystic and healer and musician and many other things, she painted a picture of the Antichrist. So, we Talked earlier, the 16th century picture, but this is a 12th century picture.
[B: 36:19.5]
And she's also now declared a saint and doctor of the church. But she. In her picture, she has three different, sections. But in one of them, there are these animals. And she, she says what they stand for, these wild animals. One stands for greed, one stands for war likeness, and so forth.
[B: 36:39.5]
And she says these, they're. They're. They're chewing on a rope. And she says these creatures, these energies are, decoupling. They're unraveling the order of the universe. So that's what chaos is, isn't it?
[B: 36:56.4]
The unraveling of the order of the universe. And these for her, therefore, are symbols of Antichrist too. And so our powers for unraveling the universe versus our powers for creating community, for bringing us together for.
[B: 37:14.0]
And that's, of course, I think, what the American Constitution tried to do 250 years ago. It was, imperfect, for sure. And it took a civil war, and it took the civil rights movement of the. Of the mid 20th century and all this to bring anatolic women marching for what was there 50 years before they could get in on the action.
[B: 37:35.7]
So, I mean, it took a lot of work and energy over the centuries to bring it to a fuller, expression. And then, of course, in the last 40 years, they've been undoing it. Citizens United is, I think, number one contribution to undoing the order, because Citizens United invited all the billionaires and all these corporations to jump in and put up as much money as they want to promote their particular political, agenda.
[B: 38:07.9]
And so this is what we're fighting with today. It's very serious. It is about whether America will be a democracy, and a better democracy, or whether it's going to just yield to this oligarchy, to authoritarianism, to a rule of the few, by the few, and for the few.
[B: 38:29.8]
And that is what is the agenda, in this latest, budget proposal from, the Republicans in Congress. I really can't. It's so hard to believe, but that politicians have so sold their soul to this alluring antichrist figure of our time that they don't even care that they're going to be putting millions of people.
[B: 38:54.2]
The number I saw, lady, is 13 million people off of insurance, health insurance, with this latest bill of theirs. Just think about that. 13 million people. And then snap money for poverty, people living in poverty for their food, et cetera, et cetera.
[B: 39:13.3]
And of course, they did this thing already with usaid. They're literally killing millions of people in Africa today that we weren't killing six months ago because they took away the money for inoculations of vaccines and food for the poorest of the poor in Africa, et cetera.
[B: 39:32.2]
So we humans, we are capable of so much beauty and grace and goodness on the one hand. And we need people like the Buddha and Lao Tzu and Jesus and Muhammad and Isaiah and White Buffalo Woman and Sojourner Truth to come along and remind us that we're capable of that stuff is called compassion and justice.
[B: 39:54.2]
Or we're also capable of unraveling the order of our society and of our, times. You know, that's why I talk about the dark night of the soul that we're in. It's a dark night of society and a dark night of our species, because we are facing our own extinction with global warming.
[B: 40:13.3]
And we have a party in the White House now that is in complete denial about global warming. They want to drill, baby, drill. And what does that mean for our grandchildren? What does it mean for the future of other species? Hundreds of millions of species are going extinct at this time because of humans.
[B: 40:31.2]
Now, it's just what you said. We need a seismic shift. And that's what real spirituality is about. It is about waking up.
[A: 40:40.0]
Is there anybody, Matthew? And I don't believe it's one person. But is there any entity, one person that can carry the message such that the individual people of the close to 8. What are we, 9 billion people on this planet, even if we reached part of them, could actually, elevate consciousness to a level that they could see the world in a different light.
[A: 41:10.2]
Because we have so many areas where even in our country, the United States, people are at, you know, if you look at Maslow's hierarchy of needs, they're at survival level, right? And when you're at these levels, you're not at the level of consciousness where you can re.
[A: 41:28.7]
See the world in a new way. Right? It's like you. I mean, if we went to Africa, if we went to all Sudan. I mean, look at the reports coming out of Sudan, the number of kids that are just starving right now because there is no aid in there. There is no water.
[A: 41:44.3]
You mean you're. You. Look, we could go on infinitum about this. The point that I would like to make and the question that I would like to ask you. If somebody wants to bring God into their heart so that they could have this reunion with God, because so many people haven't made that union.
[A: 42:08.2]
They're mechanistic about what they're doing. They just go about whatever it is. And that's what this party seems like. The party that's in rule today seems very mechanistic, very like nothing else matters.
[A: 42:23.8]
We just got to do it for the money. We don't care about the people. You get what I'm talking about. In your humble opinion, not that you have an answer, but you studied enough. What might flip the tide?
[B: 42:42.3]
Well, moral outreach. And it's got to be from grassroots. Got to be from grassroots. But actually from every angle. Those who have power in the structure and people like yourself with a.
[B: 42:57.9]
A platform, and there are many others with platforms today, and newspapers, so journalism and writing and so forth. But also, even here, we have a new pope. And given today's realities of how the papacy is made for television, it just is.
[B: 43:16.4]
Because there's one person who's Got all this prayer familiarity. But, I mean, if he can speak with, in tandem with the leaders of Buddhism and the leaders of other Christian, denominations. I noticed that even Mormons sent a representative, to the funeral of the previous pope.
[B: 43:38.2]
That's kind of a breakthrough.
[A: 43:39.6]
That's interesting. I didn't see it.
[B: 43:41.3]
It is interesting. So all those who have a voice, but above all, it's the grassroots people that have to wake up and take on their own adulthood, their own sense of responsibility. And, so that's the question, whether our species can survive or not.
[B: 43:59.8]
And to survive, we have to get, this awakening going at all levels of society and certainly at the grassroots. This is what's going to change politics in America if it's not too late. And there are people who are speaking out.
[B: 44:15.7]
I think of Tom Hartman. He did a piece on my, on my, interview with me on my Trump book, for example. Rachel Maddow. And people who have these programs that some people listen to. But again, it has. And of course, artists. This is what artists do.
[B: 44:32.0]
Films and TV programs and so forth. That, this is the artist's job to bring the prophetic. Rabbi Heschel says that the prophet interferes. So we all have to be asking, how can we interfere? Well, these groups all over the country, in all cities that are protesting, the demise of Medicaid, the demise of Social Security, et cetera, attacks on the young and on education, these are stirring things up.
[B: 45:00.1]
They have to. That's where we have to find our hope. My definition of hope comes from the eco philosopher, who says hope is a verb with the sleeves rolled up. So I like your question. It's about action. Where is the work? How can we bring this forward in our work.
[B: 45:16.7]
Lawyers, for example, on the one where we have some big legal companies yielding to the Trump situation and just bowing down and offering them all kinds of free lawyership. But on the other hand, some legal firms are saying, no, we're not going to go down that rabbit hole.
[B: 45:34.5]
The same is true as our justice system at other levels. So there are so many levels where this has to play out. But every one of us has to do our. Our share of contributing, of interfering. Because, spiritual adulthood is both about love and moral outrage.
[B: 45:53.4]
It's saying yes and no. Yes to biophilia, love of life, and no to all this pseudo, noise that is about, not a government of and by, for the people, but of by and for the billionaires.
[A: 46:12.3]
You know, you said a lot. And in that, as I'M reflecting. There's been statements many times that this administration's job is to create lots of chaos and confusion. And the reason they do that is because it distracts people from even understanding where they're going so that they can reprogram people to think that they are the saviors.
[A: 46:38.0]
Okay, now, whether that's accurate or not isn't important. What is the challenge is, is that you've given, warnings in your second book, but you also give hope for the future. And I love the fact that you're giving hope for the future.
[A: 46:55.3]
Because we don't want to be Debbie Downers here. We want to talk about what can be. Are there signs that the Christ archetype at work in contemporary movements or leaders that offer a counterbalance to what you've identified as the Antichrist?
[A: 47:13.1]
In other words, where is it? Matthew?
[B: 47:19.2]
Well, I do find. I find a lot of it among the young. I think the young are beginning to question everything. What kind of a country do we have? One of their basic question is, do we want to bring a child into the world? You know, there are a lot of young couples in their 20s asking that serious question.
[B: 47:36.1]
But it wasn't even people's minds when I was, you know, a young man. It was, of course, we want to bring young people into this country and into the world. So this just underscores, I think, the seriousness of what we're facing.
[B: 47:51.3]
But, a lot of young people are feeling, I think, a call, and many are going beyond academia as we know it. They don't want to get a college degree. It puts them in too much debt, et cetera. And besides, half the universities are yielding to the Antichrist agenda just to play safe, to be safe.
[B: 48:13.2]
But some are beginning to stand up now, finally. So the whole thing needs so much alternative. We need our creativity and imagination, and we do have tools. The social media, obviously, and these other inventions that have happened in our lifetime are ways to democratize, to get the word out to greater numbers.
[B: 48:35.5]
And, I was kind of touched when, they asked the cardinal from Hong Kong, who I do not know at all, but he looks like a young man, actually. But they asked him what happened at the conclave electing this new Pope.
[B: 48:51.2]
And he said, we elected a pastor for the world. Pastor for the world. So, that was a pretty nice angle from an Asian about this thing that's been going on for 2,000 years in Rome, which is getting a spokesperson out there supposedly standing for the values that Jesus stood for, in contrast to the statues of values that the Antichrist stands for.
[B: 49:19.4]
But this is just one example, I think, of how the word gets out today. And, we are more and more of a global village. And, we can draw on the wisdom of all our traditions, including secular traditions, including science, for sure.
[B: 49:37.7]
We, got a new pot, to work from today. And it can't be done without science. It can't be done without artists. It can't be done without journalists and media. It can't be done without good teachers. And that means parenting, because a lot of parenting is teaching and passing on values and grandparenting, too, and good citizenship.
[B: 49:58.3]
I mean, all these works are these professions. Are involved in this awakening, this resurrection. That's it.
[A: 50:10.6]
I like the fact that you are saying awakening and there is hope. And, you know, there is a theory that has been talked about for, and I would call it a theory or a postulate, that Trump was elected at this particular time because we needed this disruption to make this seismic change.
[A: 50:38.5]
Now, I don't know if I believe that, but I do understand what people are saying. Were we on course or were we off course? And if there is a course, what is the course? Right?
[A: 50:53.9]
And I think right now the confusion and uncertainty that this administration has created just, here in the US But I think you look at other countries as well. They're all dealing with their own issues. But it seems like worldwide, turmoil in some respects.
[A: 51:12.5]
Right? We're seeing China having difficulty with their economy, US now because of this trade imbalance. You go to all these other countries, and I'm not saying the whole world falling apart. I'm saying, were we supposed to, at this time, by God, have been shaken up to actually rethink fundamentally who we are as a species and how we potentially will treat this planet so that we can survive?
[A: 51:39.5]
Or are we going to perish in the process?
[B: 51:43.5]
Well said. And that's what I mean by the dark night of our species. That what the mystics teach about the dark night is that it's like a school. It's an occasion to really become transformed and to wake up. There's a beautiful teaching by Hafiz, the Sufi mystic of the 13th century.
[B: 52:02.3]
He says sometimes God wants to do us a great favor, turn us upside down and shake all the nonsense out. But most everyone I know, he says, who sees God in such a playful, drunken mood quickly packs their bags and hightails it out of town.
[B: 52:20.3]
I just love that passage because it laughs. It made you laugh. It laughs at the dark night. Of the soul. We're being turned upside down as a species to shake all the nonsense out, to grow up. I think we've been adolescent Homo sapiens for long enough, and we have to move into our adulthood now, or we're not gonna make it.
[B: 52:41.8]
And one thing I meditate on a lot these days is all these cousins of ours that we're discovering. You know, we knew about Neanderthal, we knew about the Denisons, but now we're naming, I think, a dozen others that we found, we're finding, especially in Asia, you know, all of our cousins.
[B: 52:59.6]
And what they all have in common is they're extinct. We're the last ones standing. So there has to be a lesson there someplace. For the Chinese, for the atheists, for the Americans, for the Africans.
[B: 53:15.4]
Hey, this is our last rodeo. This is our last time around. We've got to, wake up and shake up. And, you know, there's a great teaching in Aquinas to go back to the little Aquinas book. He says there are two resurrections. The first is waking up in this lifetime, and if you pay attention to that, you don't have to worry about the second.
[B: 53:38.5]
I really love that teaching because I'd never heard it before that there were two resurrections. I thought it was all about, after you die. No, he says waking up. Just the word you've been using, I've been using. That itself is a resurrection. And that's where we should be putting our energies. And of course, we have to reinvent politics, law, academia, education, religion.
[B: 54:02.2]
The whole caboodle has to be reinvented. But, hey, what a marvelous task to be called to do. What a moment to be alive in.
[A: 54:10.7]
History and have the opportunity to actually participate in this reinvention is actually a gift. I want to leave our show today saying that, you know, Matthew, you've been a gift to my audience. Your wisdom, your understanding, your knowledge is always something that actually shifts my perspective.
[A: 54:34.1]
You give me a different way to look at things. And I hope my listeners today found the same thing happen as a result of us speaking about two kind of different books. But this one, you know, and that is the Trump the Mega Movement as Antichrist and the Dao of Thomas Aquinas.
[A: 54:59.2]
So these two books, we're going to have Matthew back on, because we're going to speak actually about a book that he sent me as well, the Reinvention of Work. Now, this one, we're not going to do today, but we will get to it.
[A: 55:14.9]
And the reason I was so interested in this one is. Even though this one is a little bit old, it's one of his older books. We all have work to do. We have lots of work to do. And the question is, as we said, if we reinvent ourselves, what is that reinvention going to look like?
[A: 55:34.4]
And then we're going to be putting him on for this one as well. This is Julian, of Norwich Wisdom in a Time of Pandemic and beyond. And we all know we went through pandemic, but the reality is I had a gentleman on this morning, Matthew, who literally had an awakening as a result because he was put in ICU and the priest called him on the phone and when he was reading his last rates.
[A: 56:05.1]
And he is doing such amazing work now after he came with this near death experience, got out of the COVID and completely since COVID has changed everything in the way in which he's doing so.
[A: 56:20.9]
You know, I think awakening comes in different ways for different people. That was truly awakening of one soul that's trying to change so many other souls as a result of his, Ned. Right. And so beautiful story.
[A: 56:36.3]
Yeah. Any other comments you have for our listeners before we wrap up? Are you good with it?
[B: 56:44.0]
I'll leave you with one short sentence from Aquinas. Joy is a human's noblest act. Joy is a human's noblest act. To bring joy back into politics, education, family, life, art, this is, is part of the awakening too.
[B: 57:03.6]
You know, the. There's a struggle, there's work, but there's also a path that we're on that includes joy. You gotta make room for the biophilia, the love of life. That's the joy isn't. Drink it in like a camel, drink some water at an oasis.
[B: 57:20.0]
Before going across that desert, before going through the dark night, you got to fill the hump of our souls with joy to make it through dark times like we're in.
[A: 57:33.0]
Well, and I think, and I'll end on this, frequently for many of my listeners, they probably speak to God and God doesn't respond and they speak to God again and he doesn't respond and they speak to him again and he doesn't respond.
[A: 57:51.4]
And he isn't playing a joke on you, he's waiting for you to be ready to actually hear. And what I'd say is, if whatever method you're using, whether it's prayer or it's meditation or it's picking up a book like this and sticking your finger in it and saying this is what I need to read here, this paragraph, because I need to reflect on that.
[A: 58:14.1]
Just like you did with this book, right? That's really it. So each and every day, we have an opportunity for that joy, and the joy is in asking for help.
[A: 58:29.7]
And I certainly believe that God is there. I believe the angels are there. I think we're going to get through this, Matthew. Or as you said, we're going to go extinct. So thank you, so much for being on Inside Personal Growth.
[A: 58:47.2]
Namaste to you and to Dennis. Thanks for this opportunity.
[B: 58:52.4]
Thank you.
[A: 58:53.3]
Thank you for listening to this podcast on Inside Personal Growth. We appreciate your support. And for more information about new podcasts, please go to inside personal growth.com or any of your favorite channels to listen to our podcast. Thanks again and have a wonderful day.
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Inside Personal Growth with Greg Voisen · Podcast 1236: Gold in Your Backyard: Lessons in Life, Leadership and the Power of a Dream | Ron RubinIn this podcast, entrepreneur, philanthropist, and tea industry leader Ron Rubin joins Inside Personal Growth to discuss his inspiring book, Gold in Your Backyard: Lessons in Life, Leadership and the Power of a Dream. Ron shares 50 transformative lessons that helped him build iconic brands like The Republic of Tea and River Road Family Vineyards, and how those principles can help anyone turn vision into reality—right in their own backyard.
Whether you’re a startup founder, a seasoned business owner, or someone seeking deeper meaning in your career, this conversation offers timeless wisdom on mentorship, leadership, purpose, and personal growth.
The Power of a Dream—and the Patience to Build ItRon’s journey to owning a vineyard wasn’t overnight—it was the result of a 40-year dream. After decades of dedication and saving, he purchased River Road Family Vineyards debt-free, showing how long-term vision, discipline, and local opportunity can yield incredible rewards. This is the heart of his book: there is “gold” in your own backyard—you just need to be willing to look and commit to the long game.
Mentorship: Lesson #1One of the biggest takeaways? Find a mentor. As Ron emphasizes, mentors help shape your thinking, open doors, and teach you the lessons you’d otherwise learn the hard way. Whether it’s a former boss, a peer, or a seasoned entrepreneur, the right mentor can be a life-changing asset.
The 5% Rule: Excellence Lives in the DetailsRon reveals that great brands stand apart not just because of big ideas, but because of small decisions—the final 5%. From using a gold pen to sign his book to refining packaging at The Republic of Tea, every touchpoint reflects care, intention, and consistency.
Strategic Planning for Every SeasonNo matter the size or stage of your business, Ron stresses the importance of writing down your strategy. He walks through how he builds 6-month, 1-year, and 3-year plans—not just for operations, but for succession, culture, and community engagement. His approach ensures clarity, alignment, and long-term growth.
Turning Setbacks into PurposeAfter surviving a cardiac emergency, Ron didn’t just recover—he launched a statewide initiative. His Train for Saving Lives program has donated over 400 AEDs and trained more than 2,000 winery team members in CPR. It’s a powerful reminder that challenges can lead to your most meaningful contributions.
Building Businesses That Give BackRon’s legacy isn’t just measured in profits—it’s measured in impact. Both River Road Family Vineyards and The Republic of Tea are Certified B Corporations, committed to social responsibility, sustainability, and community enrichment. For Ron, business is about service—and leadership is about legacy.
What You’ll Learn from This Episode:* How to identify and work with mentors who elevate your path * Why strategic planning is vital for sustainability and clarity * How focusing on the “final 5%” creates unforgettable brand moments * How to build companies that balance purpose with profit * How to turn personal challenges into community change
Explore More from Ron Rubin: Gold in Your Backyard: Lessons in Life, Leadership and the Power of a Dream
Buy Now on Amazon
River Road Family Vineyards
The Republic of Tea
Final Thought:
Ron Rubin’s story is a blueprint for anyone who wants to dream boldly, lead wisely, and give back generously. As he shows, you don’t have to look far to find meaning—the gold is often right where you stand.
You may also refer to the transcripts below for the full transcription (not edited) of the interview.
Interview Transcipt -Not EditedEmailDownloadNew Tabwelcome back to another episode of Inside personal growth. This is Greg Voisen, the host of inside personal growth and joining us. Are you in Clayton Missouri this morning? Clayton Missouri, yes, sir, one of my stomping grounds from before we have Ron Rubin gold in your backyard. I've been actually waiting for this interview for a while. You can see the book has been bookmark a lot as well. Ron, Good day to you. How are you doing? I'm doing great. Thank you. It's a pleasure to have you on the show, and for you to spend some time with our listeners, and for our listeners to get familiar not only with your book, but you as a person, your philosophies in life and everything else that you've done. You're quite the entrepreneur, and I'm just going to tell people a little bit about you, because I want you to tell a lot of your own story. This book is kind of a memoir, but not only just a memoir, it also has and I'm going to show for my listeners how this came. There's a little can of tea, and on it the side, there's 50 lessons, and I do because Ron owns the Republic of tea. He also was kind enough to send me daily matcha, which, which I have here as well. So, you know, in 71 Ron began dreaming about owning winery and then studying about how to do that at UC Davis, 40 years later, in 2011 that dream came true when he purchased River Road family vineyards. It's a winery homes as well in the Green Valley of Russian River Valley in Sonoma County, and he has done so much and and it's just something that I'd really kind of like to ask you, Ron, and the trajectory of your life, between the winery and the tea business and all the things that you've done, um, tell the listeners about this journey that you've taken from a very young age all the way to today, because I think they'd like to hear it in your words.
Well, here we go. Well, okay, our family started a wholesale wine and liquor business my dad did in 1950 in Southern Illinois, and I grew up in the family business. Grew up working in the warehouse, and I knew that my father would like me to go into the family business with him. And so we had a gentleman suggest my dad that if Ron is going to go into the family business, he should go to the University of California Davis and study viticulture and enology. So in 1971 I went out to California for the first time in my life, coming from Southern Illinois, and it was a whole different world. Parents asked me, what'd you think about California? I said, I signed up, I enrolled in the school, I got an apartment, and I'm driving to California. So in 1971 I started my studies of viticulture, enology, the science of the grape and the science of wine making. And I fell in love with that. And a lot of my classmates were going to go work for their families in the wine business that had wineries, and I started dreaming someday, I hope I have a vineyard and winery myself. And that was in 1971 and as you said, That's my 40 year dream. It took me 40 years, but in 2011 I bought River Road family Vineyards and Winery. In the meantime, I worked with my dad. I started in 1972 and we worked together for 17 years till he passed away in 1989 1990 I read a book. I read a book
about tea. I'd actually, by the way, just not to interrupt you, but I downloaded that book, by the way, off of Amazon and the Kindle version, because I was just curious about these people that founded Republica tea that you ended up purchasing. And it's a fascinating story. Actually,
it is a great story. Changed my life. So my life, my wife likes to remind me when she sees me with the book, it's the most expensive book I've ever bought in my life. So I'm one of those individuals that read the book and bought the company. So it was 22 months old, so I really wanted to buy that brand as a brand over I wanted to be a brand owner. And when I grew up with my dad, we were in the middle. We were the wholesale distributor in the middle, and we represented a lot of wonderful suppliers, wine suppliers, liquor suppliers, manufacturers, but we didn't own a brand, and that's really where I found my interest in the Republic of tea, a new brand, 22 months old. And could I build this brand, the Republic of tea, into the leading specialty tea in the industry? And so you did,
and I say, and you did well. Thank you. I actually, I actually just to say I went on LinkedIn this morning to look at some of the staff who you have hired to help you, and that's one of your lessons in the book. But these people who are out representing republic of teas around the country who have their profiles on LinkedIn. And I was quite impressed with many of the people that you've chosen, their background, their history. And my hat's off to you, because you know one of the things you say in the book is to surround yourself with smarter people, right? And these people that you have hired to help you grow this brand. Are many of them amazing compliments to you, right? Thank you so much. And not only that is, you know, we I said we wanted to talk about your business. We also want to talk about your philosophy in life and some of the things that happened to you. But you know the book, when I turned the T and people saw that, you saw these 50 little axioms which this book is made up of, and the gold in your backyard offers 50 golden lessons on entrepreneurship, and obviously you're speaking to one of the best entrepreneurs around what inspired you? Because when people get to a point to write a book, right, it's like, okay, this is a crossover point. I have a story to tell. I want people to learn. I've learned so much, and I want to give back. And usually Writing a book is about giving back. It's about your lessons. So what inspired you to distill your business wisdom into this particular format, which, for my listeners, they should know, every one of these lessons is about two to three pages long. You know it's isn't this isn't a tough read, it's a very easy read, and it's in that format. And which of these lessons do you believe is probably most critical for aspiring entrepreneurs that are out there listening today, or the ones that are very successful?
Well, the most critical one is find a mentor, and that's the one I start with lesson one. And of course, I had my dad. I had another gentleman, Julian vaneske, I had a sales manager, Frank Perez, and just through my career, finding a mentor is really critical, someone that's been there, done that, hopefully in the same industry that you might, you know, be pursuing. And I just think that that's where you start and they're out there, you just have to find them and they're actually in your backyard. Yeah, so
well, so how did you kind of build that community? I mean, I pointed out to the listeners that you built a great team at republic of teas, and obviously at the vineyard as well, right at River roads. And this, this title of this book, gold in your backyard. It resonates with me because I remember this book by Russell. It was about being gold in your backyard. I'm trying to remember the name of it, but it was about the fact that people go out and seek all over the place to try and find something. And yet, this fable was about, hey, there's gold right here in your backyard. And it suggests that this opportunity for most people is closer than we could think, right? So could you share a personal example of a time when you discovered an unexpected opportunity that was really right in front of you. Well,
that's interesting. There's been a number of them, but the latest one, or I would say one that's right now, is that the book came about from YPO. Really me speaking to Young Presidents Organization a number of times. And during my speech, I decided to tell them, like my top 10 secrets for entrepreneurship, kind of like a David Letterman, yeah. And then the 10 became 20, and the 20 became 30, then became 50. And then every year from 19, you know, 72 to 2022, was 50 lessons. And when I would do my speaking, the the lessons would be, you know, a two or three minute lesson, because if I had 20 of them that takes care of an hour of public speaking, and so that's kind of how the book came about, from my speeches at YPO. And I had a gentleman who I knew through the wine business that lived in Napa, California. I'm in Sebastopol. He's right over the hill from us, and he came to visit my winery. And I, you know, I didn't know a lot about Paul's background, but I knew who Paul was, Paul, Chuck CO and Paul, we were just talking about my 50 lessons. He said, Well, Ron, why don't we? Why don't you write a book? And I said, Well, I'm not so for sure, I want to write a book. And Paul is a publisher. Okay?
He helped you write it.
He published the book. And so there he was in Napa, California,
right in your backyard, gold in your backyard. And he did a phenomenal job of this book, by the way, too. I mean, this is a very high quality paper. This is a very high quality book. It is a hardback book for all of my listeners. It is up on Amazon. We're going to put the link, but just to give you now, when he said, gold in your backyard, there you go. There's the gold the gold leaf on the pages. So I just just phenomenal. Kind of cute
story was the fact that we spend three months in Naples, Florida, January, February, March, and I was told that I needed to do an audio book. And so well, I said, Well, I'm in Florida for three months, January, February, March, in Naples. Well, anyway, believe it or not, they found a studio in Naples, Florida. I did my recording in Naples. You know, for the audio book, only had to drive about five minutes to get to the studio, and I felt that I had found gold in my backyard in Naples, Florida to do the audio book. Well,
I'll tell you when your spiritual side, like yours, is is aligned. It all of these things can come about in life, right? And I totally fundamentally and realistically and truthfully understand this, because it's very serendipitous these things start to occur and but you have to be open to receive. You got to understand, and you've got to put it out there. It's like an energy you put out, and you emanate that as a individual. And I want to compliment you that now, in your book, you discuss this concept. It's all about the 5% Could you elaborate on what this means and how it applies to entrepreneur success. I know what it is, because I read,
okay, well, well, the 5% it seems that most businesses have their systems together. They, you know, entrepreneurs, you know, everything's running smooth, and you're, you're, well, you know, you got 95% working for you, but I think it's the small detail, is that looking at that 5% and trying to figure out, you know, a culture within your organization, of how to Look at that last 5% and really the small details. And that's what I think is very important. And, you know, it's just, it's just small details. I can give you one, one real small detail. I felt that maybe I'd be asked to autograph some books. Okay? And so I I thought, well, you know, what am I going to what kind of pen am I going to use if I autograph a book? Well, should be a gold pin and and so I started working with gold pins. And I had a whole selection of 30 different gold pins, and I found the one I love. You know, it's just fantastic. It just writes wonderful. And
what's the name of that one? Huh? I
don't even know. The brand extra fine tip, A, R, T, i, s, t, r, okay,
before, but, but you found it, and you love it,
and I love it, and it's a small detail, you know, it's a small detail, but it means something, you know. So I've had a number of people give me their pin, and it was a black pen. I said, Wait a minute. I have my own, and I pull it out, and they love it, and it's just those small, small, little details.
You know, well, I think that you, like you said that 5% that additional 5% the pin, is part of that 5% you bet. And I think you're always striving to make a difference, to make things better. I know at the show here, I do a lot of preparation, and most authors out there, like, Hey, I've been on other podcasts, but nobody prepares like you do. I've never had anybody quite like you. You give me the questions ahead of time. You're, you know, you're doing it to me, that's the 5% right? So, you know, one of the things I wanted to cover, because I went through the book and I looked through it, I'll do like, two at a time, and then we're going to talk about how entrepreneurism and your relationship to the university and things you're doing is helping young people with the MBA program. But one of them is collaborate, and the other was, that was lesson seven, and the other was strategic planning, this woman that you actually found to bring back to your dad's business, and then came out and helped you with Republica tease too, too. So it was number seven and eight in the book, for anybody who picks this book up, and the first one collaborate. I think you're just a natural collaborator, Ron, because that's just who you are. Tell us why an entrepreneur out there today should be looking to collaborate. And then secondly, this woman that you found for strategic planning, I think both of those are really, really important tips that you give.
Well, collaboration to me. If I added it up, I'd say one plus one equals three. And I really feel that there's so many opportunities out there to look to collaborate with another company. It not necessarily someone that you compete with, but someone that you know you admire, some other company that you can learn from, you know, our collaboration was with a company that does jams and and jellies and specialty products like that, and we had tea so, you know, I had this idea. Most entrepreneurs have plenty of ideas innovations, and I approached them to do a tea jam, and they asked me, What is a tea jam? And I said, Well, it's my tea your jam. It's just a collaboration. We had fun. We both learned together. We both created a new product, and it was just an exciting time. And I think that that's really where you know collaborations are about. I remember that our first, our first book collaboration, was Memoirs of a Geisha. I don't know if you remember that book or not, but it was, it talked about Japanese tea in the Japanese tradition. And I thought, well, you know, maybe we could do a tea and a book collaboration. So, you know, I wrote Arthur Goldin, and the next thing I know, we had a Memoirs of a Geisha tea that got promoted, and it was a wonderful collaboration. And so I asked him, Why did you write this book? And he said, so I could have a tea that's why I wrote the book.
It is. I mean, some of the stories you tell in the book, including how you found the collaboration for the Jam, which is, you know, obviously in this industry, whether it's tea or it's any food products or, you know, fine products that people have. You guys go to these events, and I remember reading that you were at this event, and that's where you met it. And I think if you keep your eyes and ears open, it's like me, I go to the natural products West Expo every year. And I know many of the people that listen to this, it's like, oh, so what is that? Well, that's a place where, like, who knows how many it's so many people come to Anaheim and share their new products and their food products, right? Their teas, their their everything. And I think that's where you have to look for your collaborations. That's where to look for your partners, because they're there, and those entrepreneurs are seeking new ways to figure out how to do something too. Now, one of the things that you, you, you talk about, was this strategic planning. You said your dad had never done a strategic plan, and you went to this event, listen to this woman, and then you thought, Oh, this is a great idea. We had to do a strategic plan. And you know, as much as I tell my clients who are in business to do a strategic plan at least three years, so few of them really do it. They're running by the seat of their pants, right? It's like the next, next, next, whatever happens next. That's what I'm going to do it. What did this do for Republican tea and also for you and your dad in the central wholesale liquor company,
well, I think it was a roadmap for my dad myself. It was really part of looking at a succession plan, and in planning that out over a three year period, learning from that, I had that experience with my dad. I had the experience with my son, Todd, when we went through our three year succession plan, and that was all part of strategic planning in our plan. I think that when you hear about strategic planning, you have to realize that this meeting that I learned about it was, you know, 40 years ago. It was kind of a new topic. It was like, you know, something that no, you know, not a lot of companies have done or heard about. And so I was fascinated, and especially since my father's business, our family business, you know, started 1950 and we're talking about 1980 or right around that period of time. And so, you know, the company's already 30 years old. So why do you need to go through through strategic planning? So I really had to convince my dad, but it was so helpful for us to sit down and just look out for 36 months. You know, we probably here all the systems were in place. But, you know, we looked at competitors, we looked at the environment, we looked at succession, and we, you know, we learned that plan, and that was our plan, and we met, you know, once a quarter to go over the strategic plan. We set up goals, we set up responsibilities. And so it was a natural for me with the Republic of T to bring strategic planning to the Republic of t, and that was a 22 month old company. So when I sat down with Barbara, you know, I'd been working with her, I said, Well, let's, you know, plan out for three years. And she looked at me strangely, and she said, Ron, three years, we're going to plan out for six months. Startup company. Let's get this six month plan knocked out, and then we'll go to 12, and then we'll go to 18 and 36 but we're not going to start at a third, you know, through the year plan. And that's exactly what we did. We started with our six month plan. It started in June 94 and went to the end of 94 and then we started with our 12 month plan for all of 1995 and so but today, our son does a three year strategic plan. And
no, it's you know what you're talking about is so valuable, these lessons in family businesses, or any businesses, you know, I think I shared with you a little bit for 30 plus years, I have been a business advisor and a certified one, and I literally did this through coming through the Financial Services and insurance business. And I would do succession planning for people you know, like, Hey, how are you setting this up to move this down to the next generation? You know, how's Todd and Jane gonna get it? What's it gonna look like? What's your estate plan? What are your insurances? I mean, we look at everything we look at and you touch on a lot of these in the book. You even had talked about in this book, the term insurance, and then what happened to you, and then we'll, we'll get there. But I would always tell people, you know, look, you're not going to live forever, and you've got a next generation. Do you want to move this to the next generation, or do you want to sell it right? And what is your goal? Because most entrepreneurs have their life savings tied up in their business, right? That is what it is, and you need to have way to get that out, because that's what you want to live on and retire on. So good points you make here, but for throughout your career, you've maintained this unique corporate culture. And I think this is where philosophy comes in is around culture. And at the Republic of tees, you call them ministers instead of employees and citizens instead of customers. How important to you is organizational culture to entrepreneur success, and how can leaders foster cultures that align with the values. I know that, you know, I haven't had Yvon Chouinard on here, but if you look at Patagonia, and you look at the values that the company has set for themselves, and then you talk to the employees that work there, the reality is, is that this has been a really key thing for you, and Todd has carried it on, carried it forward. Why did you make this decision, and why is it that you're so strongly an advocate for this?
Well, I think, of course, I learned from my mentor, my dad, back then, you know, he thought profit sharing was very important. You know, giving back at the if you had a good year, at the end of the year, you know, you share your profits and starting a retirement program for your employees. My dad was really philanthropic, and so, you know, there was a lot of this that kind of came through my DNA, and I learned from my dad and I've tried to do that with our family and our children and our lives. And so in business, it became somewhat of a natural but with the Republic of t when you read the book, you know the the founders created the culture, and what I wanted to do was use it as our DNA for building their brand, and so we kept true to what the book is. Now. The founders also had created the Banana Republic clothing chain. And I don't know if you remember the Banana Republic when it was Safari look, and they had the experience, and now, when they sold out to the gap, gap just changed everything. It doesn't even look like the Banana Republic from the founders point of view. And so, you know, I think, you know, keeping the DNA of the of the brand, that's what we wanted to do today. I think you know, when you think of business, and you think of doing good, you know, you should be thinking about becoming a certified B Corporation.
I'd agree 100% it takes a little extra work, but it's important, and that, you know that,
Can I correct you a minute? You said it takes a little extra, takes a lot of extra, well,
extra horse. I do. I wanted to be nice. The reality is, I'm aware of what it takes to become a B Corp. And yes, I'm going to tell my listeners, it takes a lot of extra and both of your companies are B Corps, and that's just a commitment to you. Also, you know this, this runs down this line of social responsibility and environmental stewardship that you have, and you know, looking working with growers in all these Asian countries for these teas, and looking at how they're treating their employees, and are they getting fair pay, and all these kind of things that you have to look at. I think it's just fantastic that you do that. So how do you balance profit motives with these broader societal concerns? And how has this, you know, approach evolved over your you know, your career, because right now, I think it's probably one of the most important things that you could pay attention to. Well,
first of all, if you're not making a profit, you can't be good so today in business, but I think before you make a profit, you really had to look at your debt structure. I think what makes it a little easier for us we have no debt, and that was planned that way. That was how I was taught. That's what my dad instructed. And we were able to grow a business with no debt, using the resources and pay off debt. And so I think that that's really important part. Now there's some companies that you know want to go public, and they're going to build a big manufacturing plan, and they need millions of dollars, and I understand that. But you know, for us, as a family business, a specialty company, we went down the specialty path, not the mass market path, and we wanted to become, you know, debt free. And so this gives us a lot of lot of ways that we can give back and take some of those profits and put them to good use. So that's, that's what I would recommend, you know, try to become debt free if you can. Took me six years, three months and 15 days at the Republic of T Wow.
You got that down to the day 2000 when you wrote that last check to the bank, or whoever wasn't loaned the money. You know exactly. Well, I'm, I'm impressed, very impressed with that, because so many companies have debt, and they're spending a lot of their time earning revenue to service debt, and so it's very hard for them to get away and get ahead. They're constantly servicing the debt. They're hiring new employees, and they're running on razor thin margins. And so when you run on those kind of margins, you can't make many mistakes along the way. So Mike, hats off to you, kudos that you've been able to do that. That's a very enviable place for for you to be,
you know, and for the winery for me personally, you know, it was a 40 year dream. So I had 40 years to save for, save up for that winery. And so when I bought the winery. I bought paid for it in cash, you know. And we have no debt at the winery. And so that's been since 2011 and that gives us some tremendous strength, but it also gives us the way to take our profit dollars and give back. So
let me ask you a question, Ron, because in both of these companies, not the central wholesale liquor company, but obviously republic of tea and the winery back road, you purchased companies, and they weren't your companies originally, you bought a company out and how did you kind of do your own due diligence about the people that were running these companies. I know you read the book in the Republic of T case, but the reality is is, how did you kind of decide, through your own personal due diligence and family due diligence, to say, hey, we're going to go ahead and make a sizable investment in this company, and we believe this is where we want to go. How did that occur?
Well, the winery, you know, specifically I wanted to look at either Napa or Sonoma. I found Napa to be more Hollywood. Sonoma was country, so I felt more comfortable in Sonoma. So I started reaching out in Sonoma worked with a wine broker, and he brought me to this opportunity the river road family Vineyards and Winery. Their their exit strategy was to sell their winery, and they had one customer, and doing about 20,000 cases with one customer. That customer at the time was total wine and more. And so a lot of people shied away from that. But through my experience, we started working with Panera Bread in St Louis when they only had 12 restaurants, and now they have 2000 we started growing with the Whole Foods down in Austin when they only had a couple of stores, and now they have 450 so I had the experience to grow organically and not to go out and find more customers, but try to do more business with the customers that you already have. And I guess my due diligence, just for the winery, it didn't scare me off. It scared a lot of people off. Only one customer. That's pretty risky, yeah, but my due diligence was going out to meet the owners in Maryland, Robert Trone, David Trone, and I said, Listen, I'm interested in buying this winery, but you know, you're our only customer. Will you stay with me? And they said they would stay with me under one condition, and that condition was Ron, most of the new winery buyers, first thing they do is they raise their raise their prices on their wine. And if you keep your prices the same to us, we'll stay with you. And so I said, Well, I'll do that for three years. Let me get my feet wet. And they said they would stay with me. So, you know, we started with 76 locations, and today they're in 277 locations, and we've been able to grow our business with them, and they've been a great partner, and we think we've been a great partner with them. And so I think my due diligence was talking with the previous large customer. So I really recommend a lot of times, when you're looking at buying a company, go out and talk to their customers. You know,
that's a I think that for people listening today who are potentially thinking about an acquisition, to actually get the customer list and to actually speak with their customers is a very important move. Due diligence is so important to really understand. I, just as a side note here, helped a company. Actually, there was another company pushing for a letter of intent, and I did the due diligence. And in the end, I told my client that this was not an appropriate move, given what was at stake. And in the end, he walked away from it, right? And I think that's important thing. That's why I asked about due diligence. That's an important thing in any business. Do due diligence about all of the things you're in. And you know, you've done your own due diligence when it comes to your health. And I'm going to shift gears here a bit about your personal journey after your cardiac event in 2009 and we're not calling it a heart attack, because it wasn't and it was interesting. You say this because I learned all about it through you, and then I read more about it. My daughter in law is at Moran general right now, the brand new one, and she was only 42 years old, and she had a a aortic tear and and she just at 40 something years old, three days ago, went through open heart surgery, and it was something genetic. Didn't quite know it was there. The doctors don't see much about of it. They don't even know about it too much. She's up and around now, walking in the hospital out of ICU. So, you know, it was a shock to us, because that's the mother of our grandchildren. And so the thing is, is that you had this event in 2009 you finally pursued your lifelong dream of owning a winery. How this health thing? Because you write about it in lesson 17, because you are an avid jogger, I should say you were running marathons even. How does health challenge change your perspective on risk taking and pursuing your dreams? And what advice would you give to others who might be postponing their own dreams?
Well, you know, we can't, we can't focus on what's going to happen tomorrow. Plan what's going to happen tomorrow. Nobody knows what's going to happen tomorrow. You know, we know what happened yesterday, but we don't know what's going to happen today or tomorrow. So you know, you can't sit back and think about it. You have to, you know, make it happen. And for me, I think the wake up call was being in a hospital bed at age 60, realizing I was going to have a heart procedure done on a Monday, and I'm there on a Friday, and all gave me a little bit of time to think about it over the weekend. And really, I the only thing that I thought about was dying. You know, my life over at age 60, and you know, if I make it through this heart procedure and surgery, you know, this is what I want to do, and I'm not going to wait around anymore. I'm going to try to make make this happen. And so it was a wake up call, and for me personally, but what I try to tell in my book is that, you know, don't wait. Don't wait for a ventricular tachycardia to happen to you. You know, try to, you know, live your dream now, you know, try to make it happen. Now, just, you know, we can't wait. You know, it's just,
I think that the advice is, is incredible. And, and I, you know, look, I've joint written books with one of my friends. This is his third time up Mount Everest, about parfet. And, you know, he doesn't wait for anything. He goes for everything. In other words, it's like, Hey, I'm not going to wait till tomorrow. Yeah, I could die up there, just like the other two times I went up there. He's, he's reading about it, so he's got the book right next to him. And, you know, he just finished coming down about three days ago and re acclimating again from another trip. But here's what he did this. This kind of leads into you, he went up there with an expedition to raise money for the blind cause, kids that go blind. And he raised this phenomenal sum of money with the company that he's a partner in. And the whole time he was carrying this flag, not only for that, but for these blind kids, right? And I think that you know, when you have a cause like that, you're more apt to get it finished, right? It's like, I'm going for this, because there's something greater for that than myself involved in this, right? So you described yourself as a zentrepreneur, okay? And I don't know if you practice Zen practices, or you're Buddhist or whatever, but the point is, I'm a big meditator and so on. How does this philosophy differ from traditional entrepreneurship, and how's it, how's it influenced the way you approach business challenges? Because I think that's the most important thing. Well,
I think you know when I if, if I had to define the term entrepreneur, and what you know today, when you think about an entrepreneur, you know that you could probably put equals workaholic. You know, 60 hours, 70 hours a week, maybe even more, they're trying to get their business off the ground and or whatever they might be pursuing, and they forget about their life, yeah, forget about their family, yeah. Get about their health. They forget about a lot of things. And a zentrepreneur, we love it. We like to define it as someone that has a business and a life. So, you know, I'm not saying that it's 5050, you know, I'm not saying not to be 90. It could be 9010 but you know, don't forget about your life. Take care of yourself. Take care of your family. Be considerate, you know, in in so that's what we we want you to, kind of, just like the Republic of t, you know, sit by sip rather than go by, go, you know. We want you to slow down a little bit and look at life and look, look what's around you, and look at nature and and, you know, go for a walk, or whatever it might be. Go for a run, you know, and so don't, don't just entrepreneurs, workaholics, and you think, you know, that's what you have to do. But I think if you could balance yourself out just a little bit better be as entrepreneur and think about a business and your life.
Well, what would your younger self tell you about that? Because look, when you came up, my
younger tell me that my younger Tell me.
But of all those listeners out there who are younger that listen to this show, you're telling them, be patient, right? Look at the timing. It's not important to have it happen today. I always remember this from from Bo actually, the guy we were just talking about who climbed the mountain. He take his young boy, he lives in Boulder into Whole Foods, and the boy would run over and say, I want this. And he goes, is it a want or need? And I think it's little, small lesson like that to do you really need this muffin, or whatever it was that he was, you know, I was some candy something, right? Or is it just a want, right? And you don't really need it, so I'm not buying it for you. So the point is, is that I think that when we put those things in perspective, as you you had a Jewish father, I had a Jewish mother, and she used to say to me, and these are the lessons that I keep hearing in my mind, it's not how much you earned, it's what you saved of what you earned, right? So these are like little cliches that click off of my head. I still hear them today, right? Yesterday's a canceled check, tomorrow's a promissory note. The only time you have is now. She used to say that too, you know? So she'd say, stay in the present moment, just like what we're talking about here today, right? And I can hear my mother saying those things because she came from, I'm going to say not abject poverty, but pretty close living in St Louis, watching people jump out of windows when the Depression came right and putting in when she died, she had money stashed all over the house in different areas. It's just really quite a little story, right? So, you know, look, you you have committed yourself to so many causes, and I think that's part of it. And one of the causes was, and I'm going to turn the pages here, was the, the the the things with the A ed program. So after this cardiac arrest while training for your eighth marathon, you created this training for saving lives program, donating 400 AED to wineries across the United States. Can you share how this near death experience kind of transformed your perspective on giving back and what does it mean to know that your program has such a great potential to save so many lives in wine country? Well,
thank you. The first I should say, a defibrillator saved my life. I was shocked by a defibrillator that brought my heart back to normal rate. And what ended up happening to me is I had an implantable cardio defibrillator. I have it right here with me now. So if my heart takes off, I get shocked. It's shocked. It has shocked me five times in my life, and saved my life all five times. So I know you know what the value of having a defibrillator? I'm one of those lucky ones. I have one built in, so it's right with me, I'm
going to say Thank God for Bill George and medtronics. You betcha. He started, he started in the garage of his of his house in Minnesota, and he's written many books, and he is a wonderful man. And I'll tell you, you wouldn't be alive. It wouldn't be from medtronics. That's
correct, no doubt about I went up to visit them. Yeah, in St Paul Minneapolis, yeah. So, you know, going owning a winery and even the Republic of T we train our staff and CPR, and we also have AEDs at our facilities. And so, you know, I just talking to my winery friends that have tasting rooms that are in the area, and I asked them, Do you all have a, you know, AD, do you train your team with CPR? And really, I was surprised to find out the answer was no, right? And I have a friend here locally in St Louis that's on the American Red Cross national board, and we put a collaboration together,
collaboration, another one Red Cross,
and the AED manufacturer Zol Z, Oll, Zoll medical. And so we all met, and I kind of came up with an innovative idea. You know, why don't we try to come up with a program called train for saving lives now, while we put out over 400 AEDs, the one number that I'm really, oh, I guess thankful for is that we have over 200 excuse me, we have over 2000 winery staff personnel trained in CPR first aid and how to use an AED.
And How many lives do you think you've saved. Do you keep in track? Well, I'm not keeping
track, but I have winery owners write me and say, you know, we had someone just drop at our winery, and we knew what to do, and we had our AED and and so, you know, I know it's going to work. I know it's going to save a life. You know, it's not a matter if, it's just a matter of when. And so, you know, it became a passion for me, especially, you know, in you think about the wine industry, and you hear about sustainability and taking care of the land, but you know you had to take care of your staff, your visitors, your friends, your customers,
yeah, you know it's like, you've had that thing go off, and I've had clients that have had them. And I actually, I was walking with one of my clients on a mall somewhere, and his defibrillator went off, and he just like, boom, he went down to his knees, right? And I know sometimes it could be quite a like bulk, right? Well, and I was, I was wondering what happened to him. I was like, Oh, my God, he goes, Well, my defibrillator just went off. So, you know, you suffered one of these shocks while giving a speech. Your implantable defibrillator shocked you, leading you to stop public speaking entirely. How well you're now. You're public speaking to me right now. How has this challenge affected your ability to share your entrepreneur message, and how have you adapted and your mentoring and teaching approach to work around this? What you're going to call a limitation? I don't really think it's a limitation, because I don't see you as a guy that's limited at all. But tell us what you're doing. Well,
I think for me, doing a public speech, what? What thinking about those that are in the audience or those that are listening to your speech, when? When I did get shocked, it scared the death out of everybody. They had never seen it before. They didn't know what to do. They thought I died, you know, you know, we had to call the ambulance, 911, and it was just, it was just a hate to use the word shock, but it was a shock for everybody there. Yeah, I kind of knew what was going on. I did racing, I I had been shot before. This wasn't a new experience for me, you know, but for those that were listening to me, it was, it was really traumatic. Yeah, figured that no more traumatic events. I don't want to have a traumatic event for others. And so with the help of zoom podcast radio interviews, I do like to do teaching and classes I like to do, you know, a small classroom setting. But you know that that was my desire. And well,
you went back to your alma mater, and you call it the Ron Rubin
rule for
the entrepreneur, yeah, exactly. Tell the listeners a little bit about that, because you went back to Indiana, right? Yeah,
cover Academy and cover
Yeah, and you have a mentorship program there an entrepreneur, and you give scholarships, right?
We have an endowed program, yeah. And
how many people have been have received scholarships from you there?
The school has about 823, students, and over half of the students have taken classes in the entrepreneur program and over started off as kind of more of a one year program, and now it's a regular four year high school program. You start as a freshman, and you can graduate in honors of entrepreneurship so and you get a certificate. Yeah, and awesome. We have two businesses that they run as a senior regular profit businesses. You know, they hire, they fire, they buy everything. They learn how to run a business. One of them is a cafe, Rubin cafe. The other is called ego Outfitters, where they sell all the, you know, merchandise that a school might have, T shirts, sweatshirts, hats, whatever. And they run that business online, mainly, wow. So there's two, two active businesses. The profits that they make, they give back to the Culver fund, I'm happy to say. And so that's been a wonderful program for well, but it what
it did. It allowed you to take your knowledge, wisdom, expertise, implanted into a school, and endow the school with some funds and to actually teach people entrepreneurship. That's um, I think you had to change the name from entrepreneur to entrepreneur, you know. So, building sustainable legacy. Look, you've talked about Todd. You have a daughter, Jane, Julie, I'm sorry. She's married to a wealth manager. They live in Plano, Texas, you know, so with your son Todd, now leading republic of t as CEO and this various philanthropic efforts like we just talked about, including the school at Culver Academy, how do you balance preparing this next generation to carry on your business legacy, while ensuring really the social impacts initiatives that you that you want to continue to thrive. And then this final question is, what does finding gold in your backyard mean in the context of family succession and community responsibility.
Two wonderful questions,
two questions. I gave you a double hit. Here you get you get to go, boom, boom. Okay,
so start off again with the first question. So we'll repeat it again. I'll let you read.
Yeah, well, so your first question is really in passing this down from generation, how do you balance preparing Todd and then the next generation, who's going to carry on in your businesses, while ensuring that you know they keep the social impact and the initiatives that you've worked so hard for continue to thrive. And then the second part of the question is, what is this finding gold in your back Mar mean in the context of family succession and community responsibility? So a two part question. Well,
I think, with regard to Todd, you know, we have an advisory board, which I write about, which is so I'm on an advisory board. I also talk about being his mentor, being a mentor like my dad was. So I think the two things that for me personally is to help Todd navigate running the Republic of T being a mentor and an advisor, and and I think that he has seen what I have done kind of set the path in the journey, and that's the same path that we want to go down together, and then someday, I'd like him to go down that path, and maybe with his family. So I think, you know, there, there's some sacred cows. We call them, I guess I don't know if that's a good expression or whatever that you know, this is what we want to do. We don't want to change this. This is who we are. This is what we're about. Philanthropy is about, about that. I think Todd knows what it's about. And, you know, we have our strategic plans, and we go over that. And so, you know, it's a clear path. It's a clear way. So there's no questions you know about what you know, what we want to do. And you know, we meet and we talk about it, so community, including,
including your succession, because you're donating a lot of your time to these philanthropic activities. And so Todd really is 100% running Republican tease, other than you being an advisor, would that be correct? That's correct? Oh, yeah, yeah. He runs it 100% Yeah, yeah. And you're very proud of what he's been able to accomplish. He's taken it to the next level. Yeah, exactly. Well, that kudos to Todd. I've never met him, but, you know, sometimes they like, say, Like father, like son, great, great. Kudos to him for keeping the legacy and carrying it on. And for your tea company to move on and at the winery is he's not involved in the winery business. That's just you, is that correct? Just
me, but I have our vice president, general manager, who is, you know, my backup, right? She's, well, we've worked together for 18 years together, and so I have all the confidence in the world that she can handle running the winery. Well, I
think one of the things that you've let our listeners know is that building a team is important and staying focused, which is one of your things, number 28 and I want to commend you for really staying focused as much as you've like had several different businesses here, right? The reality is, you know, kind of the tea and the wine for a while, other people may say I don't see the correlation. I totally see it. You've got to pick this book up and read it, because you will definitely learn about the correlation of Ron, because he is living his life as a zentrepreneur, as he said. And I just want to honor you. Honor your family, your wife, Pam Todd, for hanging in there with you during all the tough times and during all the good times. And you know, you guys creating a legacy through all of these things that you're doing. And more importantly, for people, just remembering you for you being just such a compassionate individual. So namaste to you. Thank you for all that you're doing to help so many people.
Thank you so much. I appreciate this has been a lot of fun, and I've enjoyed all of it.
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Inside Personal Growth with Greg Voisen · Podcast 1235: THE FALSE KINGS: How MENipulated Men Get Trapped in a Rigged Life That Looks Like SuccessIn this podcast episode of Inside Personal Growth, host Greg Voisen interviews Tino Dietrich, an award-winning entrepreneur, certified coach, and founder of the Dietrich Institute. The conversation centers around his powerful new book, THE FALSE KINGS: How MENipulated Men Get Trapped in a Rigged Life That Looks Like Success, which offers a bold and vulnerable look at how modern men are misled by outdated beliefs, toxic success models, and deeply ingrained societal expectations.
A Near-Death Experience that Sparked a New LifeTino shares the story of his battle with COVID-19—an ordeal that landed him in the ICU, on the verge of death, being read his last rites. It was during this terrifying moment that he realized he had built a life that looked successful from the outside but left him feeling unfulfilled and disconnected inside.
“I told my wife I’d be home for dinner… instead, I was being told to say goodbye. That night changed everything.”
— Tino Dietrich
That moment of reckoning sparked a radical shift. He began to question the “cruels”—what he calls crappy rules handed down without consent—that had shaped his identity as a man, father, husband, and leader.
The Truth About False SuccessIn The False Kings, Tino dismantles the illusion that success equals happiness. He argues that men are often “MENipulated” by society to believe that wealth, achievement, and power are the ultimate goals—only to discover that they’re left feeling hollow, burned out, and disconnected.
This episode dives deep into:
- Why work-life balance is a myth, and how alignment is the real solution
- The physical toll of toxic ambition: high blood pressure, burnout, and declining testosterone
- How to rewire your inner belief system and confront the “inner enemy”
- The legacy of masculine sacrifice, inspired by his grandfather’s heroic stand in the July 20 plot against Hitler
- Simple embodied practices like “wolf breath” that help men reset their nervous systems and connect with presence
What You’ll Learn from This Conversation* How to recognize and rewrite the hidden rules driving your life * Why high achievement often masks deep emotional and spiritual disconnection * How physical health issues are often symptoms of a misaligned, overstressed life * The importance of clarity, courage, and self-leadership for men seeking fulfillment
Connect with Tino DietrichIf you’re ready to shed the mask of false kingship and reclaim your authentic power, this episode—and this book—are essential resources. Explore more from Tino below:
- Buy the Book: The False Kings
- Official Website
- The Dietrich Institute
- Twitter/X
Listen NowIf you’re a man feeling stuck in a life that looks great on the outside but feels empty inside—or if you love a man who is—this podcast will open your eyes, challenge your thinking, and help you begin the journey to true fulfillment.
Tune into this transformational conversation on Inside Personal Growth and begin your path to becoming a true king.
You may also refer to the transcripts below for the full transcription (not edited) of the interview.
Interview Transcipt -Not EditedEmailDownloadNew TabWelcome back to Inside personal growth. This is Greg Voisen, the host of inside personal growth. And joining us from Miami, Florida, is Tino, and it's Tino Dietrich. And Tino has, as you can see by his shirt, the Dietrich Institute. And we're going to let the listeners know a bit about you. But Good day to you. How you doing?
Constantin Dietrich
Thank you for having me. I'm I'm doing great,
Greg Voisen
as he said earlier. The backdrop there, that's Hamburg, Germany, which is it is he comes from Germany originally, but he's in Miami. And do you spend time between both places?
Constantin Dietrich
I do, I do. I travel back and forth. I would say as much as I can, and time permits, but yeah, I enjoyed both Germany and Miami. So to say,
Greg Voisen
well, it's a pleasure having you on the show, and I'm going to let the listeners know a bit about you, because you definitely have a very, I'm going to say, interesting journey and path, and we're going to direct them to your website as well. But Dietrich tino.com is one, right, and then the Dietrich Institute, but Tino, he's an award winning entrepreneur and a certified coach. He's a dynamo, really, in relationship and communication expertise. And we're going to be talking about an upcoming book that's soon to be released. So when this podcast releases, it will be out, and it is called the false kings. I think that's a great title. He's backed by over 17 years of experience with prestigious executive education from Wharton and Harvard as a visionary founder and CEO of the Dietrich interest Institute. He leads teams of experts dedicated to unlocking their greatest potential. He's been on NBC, ABC, FOX, Rolling Stone, ask men, women's health, and Newsweek, and he resonates with people worldwide. And I we're in for a great interview here, because we're going to be talking about a subject which affects, I think, the most men today. But Tino, how did you move from where you were in Germany to becoming this successful coach and becoming quite the entrepreneur who was successful in your own right, and kind of tell a little bit about your backdrop and why you think this topic of the false kings is so important for people to hear about.
Constantin Dietrich
Yeah, so my journey been. My journey has taken me around the world, and I've lived, worked and enjoyed many different countries, cultures, and I would say I was fortunate enough to live an interesting life. But what happened is, about five years ago, like so many of us, I got COVID, and my family got COVID, and everybody else got better. I just did not, and like, a piece of chewing gum under your your foot, you know, under your soul. It just wouldn't, like, you know, couldn't let get rid of it. And one day it just got really bad. I had a bad headache, so I did this telemedicine communication with Doctor, you know, you couldn't go to a doctor anymore. You know, everything was shut down, and it was hard. And he said, you know, you have to go to the urgent care center. And again, you know, that was like a real trip at that time. And I was like, oh my god, okay, so I went there. Told my wife, Hey, honey, I'll be back later, you know. So went there. They took my vials, and they sent me straight to the hospital. And I was like, oh god, oh no, you're gonna go to the emergency room, and we can't help you here. And, you know, everything was really bare minimum service anyway. So called my wife, and I said, Ah, you know, now I have to go to the hospital, but I should be back for dinner. So drove to the hospital, walked into the they had these two entrances, like normal people, COVID people. And I obviously had to go through the COVID people address. And was a was empty, you know, wasn't a lot of people there. And then they had all these chairs where, you know, you had to have that four distance empty and, yeah, you know, safety distance only, like three or four people in there. And I looked and I felt so bad, and I just collapsed right there. Oh, no, four step off the emergency room. Woke up, had all these, you know, needles and everybody running around. And the doctors told me that they have to take me to the ICU. And I said, you know, I was a little on Cloud number 24 because they gave me all this medication. And what the problem was that my blood pressure was through the roof, and they couldn't figure out why and what, and so they had to take me to the ICU. And I fell asleep again, and I woke up with the nurse and the doctor there, and doctor spoke to me, but I was like, really not, not well, and couldn't really understand what he was saying. But what I understood is, like, he handed me the phone and said, you know, the priest wants to talk to you. And I'm like, okay, whatever. Like, I didn't really understand why. And then the priest, you know, talked to me and asked me all these questions, and I found them really weird, you know, do you have a last will and this and that and and then he said, Do you want me to read your last rites? And I first, I've never been in at that point in my life, and I didn't really understand what that means. And then I said, Sure, sure. I thought he wanted to pray with me or something. And then he I listened to what he said, and I realized, like, because he was like, you know, God, and open him with open arms, and blah, blah, blah. And then it all, like, started to sink in, and I started to realize that my situation was not good. And then I hung up, and I looked at the doctor, and he said, we have to put you on an ECMO. This is not good. Do you want to call your wife or your family and say goodbye? And I said, What do you mean? And he said, We don't know if you're going to make it. And I was like, I was devastated. So they put me on that ECMO. I called my wife, I said, you know, I'm not going to be home for dinner. In fact, I may not be coming home at all. And, well, I was not good, obviously. And, but you know, you, you stuck between disbelief. Then you, know, you have the needles in your body and the machines beeping and whatnot, so you start to realize that whatever it is that you tell yourself may not be true. So the nurse left, the doctor left, and I was there and started to, you know, reflect. I said, wow, you know, it seems to be more serious than I thought. And I reflected on my life, and I realized that even though I had everything you know that, that you would describe as a good life, and I've been super fortunate, I have three wonderful kids and a gorgeous wife, I started to realize that if I would leave now, you know what? What did I leave to them? And it didn't leave a house, but not a home. You know, I felt like a failure to my wife. I felt like a failure to my kids as a father, because I realized that I hadn't, you know, fully embraced the opportunity to be the man that I always wanted to be throughout my life. And the more I thought about it, the more I realized that I was way off. And so I started to pray, and I started to, you know, ask for the second chance to to make a first impression. And I said, if I get that, you know, I promise that I will change a few things, you know, a few core pillars in my life, and they
Greg Voisen
change a lot of things, yeah, but I think
Constantin Dietrich
that's really what it was at that time, and that really is my epiphany. So to say, well, you know,
Greg Voisen
I think many of us, I was just on with a famous breath worker from Italy, Anthony, and it's interesting, you know, our breath because, you know, look at here you are in the hospital. They're going to incubate you. It is a challenge for people with COVID to breathe. That's part of the issue, right? It's like your blood pressure is high. You're having challenges. And I think that every breath we take is such a gift, and we have to realize that, but we don't, and we don't look at this breath as an opportunity to heal, because during COVID, it's constriction, during good times, it's expansion. So it's like, Ah, what a beautiful breath I just took during COVID. You were constricted. It was like everything was constricting in around your body, and the doctors were telling you weren't going to make it. And so this growth from the constriction to the expansion to be a better person is really a lot about what your book is about. And you know, your book opens up with this power state pool about being manipulated. Because, you know, you were just talking, can I be a better man? Well, can I be a better husband? Can I be a better father? Can I be a better coach? And you say, into a rigid life that looks like success, but isn't. And you were saying just a minute ago, well, what is success? I had this beautiful wife, had these kids, I had a house, but it wasn't a home, and you've now chosen to make it a home. Can you explain what you mean to the people out there by being manipulated, and how you first recognize kind of this pattern in your own life. Did it start like way back in school as you were a little one? Or where did it start in your life? Tino,
Constantin Dietrich
yes, I think there. It does start there. And obviously you and I grew up in a time that was a little different than what we see today, because you and I didn't have Instagram and all these social media accounts telling us what happiness is, and you know what success looks like, and so on and so forth. So we learn things from maybe fathers, maybe, maybe, you know, the parents, the teachers, the friends, society, whatever it is. So that's how we began to shape our perception of reality, and it is the stories that we were told about reality, and I think that is what I realized. I realized that I had followed this path that, you know, when I entered that door, it said success, and so, you know, I opened the door, I walked in, and the problem probably is that you never really question that, right? You You just follow the path, but, and it's like a carrot and a stick, and you follow and follow and follow, but somewhat, there's always this distance between you and and that happiness you never get there, but it's so close, right? And you keep telling yourself, like you just run faster, you you get there faster. And but it is the carrot on the stick and, well, you've
Greg Voisen
been given a gift with the COVID to wake up to really work on this life as somebody who wants to live happily and joyfully and with peace, you know. And you introduce this concept, which you call it cruels, called crappy rules handed to you without consent, and look as men. And I think women too, but I'll say men, we're all given cruels, right? Or growing up, what are some of the most damaging cruels that successful men unconsciously follow, and how can they begin identifying these kind of in their own lives? I think what happens Tino is subconsciously, these cruels get embedded, and then they they we don't even realize we're living them. We're just kind of on autopilot. And every day the the cruel is there, right? But we don't recognize it. We've got to be successful. We've got to act a certain way. We've got to be a certain way. We've got to do this or that, because all in the strive strife of achievement. So you work with a lot of highly people who've been very successful and had have great amounts of achievement. Tell us what those cruels are, and how can we identify them?
Constantin Dietrich
So here's the interesting part. As business owners, entrepreneurs, high achievers, doctors, lawyers, doesn't matter. You know, high achiever, you you make decisions every day, and I always say the choice you make determines the challenge you will face, and life is the sum of all the choices that we made. So we're in business. We're very, very strategic, very there's a mythology you know to follow a certain path and apply solutions. And you wouldn't really make decisions based on hearsay or on your gut. Sometimes you do, but you know you rely on data or rely on information, market research, whatever it is, if, for whatever reason, that information is corrupted wrong, the chances that the decision you make for your business is going to be bad, you know, increases proportionally. Now if we grow up and we've been told something and we believe in something, which is a rule, you know, you have to do this. You have to work hard to do this. You have to supply, you know, you provide. You have to be, you know, emotional. You have to do, have to have to you follow that path that you believe in because you know that is the information you've been given, the story you've been told, and you believe it, but you're following something that is wrong, and you need to have that point in time where you have to stop and have to ask yourself, if you're not getting the result that you Actually were trying to get to. Why is that? But here we are stuck, and we often, so often, man, tell me I'm doing everything I can, and I say that's probably not true, because if you would be doing everything you can, you probably would get to the result that you're achieving. But you have to question if whatever it is that you are doing is the right thing. So, you know, and as much as I always say, entrepreneurs, they have to do the right things, and managers, they have to do the things right. You know, there's a little bit of looking at perspectives, and just because you look at something from a different angle, all of a sudden everything changes.
Greg Voisen
The perspective is really important. I think it's like if there was a if there was a picture of yourself and you were nose to nose to the picture, you wouldn't recognize it was you until you backed away. And I think frequently. Entrepreneurs have their nose to this picture of who of too close and they can't see, and then when they do, back up, because the way they've been programmed, the fear comes in because they've been in this fog all along, running at 110 miles an hour in the fog, not knowing frequently where they're going, but knowing that that's what they had to do, because it was going to take them someplace wonderful, which you and I already know that that's an MSU making I call it making shit up. We make up stories. We believe those stories, and then we begin to live out those stories. Yeah, right. So we've we've done this for years and years, whether it's men or women, it's just part of the world. Now, the book paints a very stark picture of this biological decline in modern men, and I know that's true from testosterone drops to fertility issues. I mean, we we see this happening more and more incidence of prostate cancer, right? I mean, you we were looking at our past president. Why do you believe these physical dimensions is so crucial to address alongside the psychological aspects of male development, because they go hand in hand. Let's face it, they do, yeah, they
Constantin Dietrich
do so, but you have to ask yourself why that is right so, so So we're kind of pushed into this life that, you know, people say that's success. So you define that story, and you say that's success, and then you follow that. And what do we have? We have diabetes, right, spreading out like wildfire. We have high blood pressure, the silent killer. You know, people don't know that, and I take that as a great example, because I think there's so many high blood pressures in our lives, right? That things that you don't realize until you drop that and people say, Oh, he died of high blood pressure. It wasn't like you had pimples or something, you know, it didn't come as a rash or you have leg pains with high blood pressure, it's just there, and that what makes it so dangerous. So you really have to pay attention, and you have to double check, you know, your personal KPIs, your metrics, and make sure that everything is in check. So if you don't really follow that process, you actually following the wrong process, and that leads you down a path that, again, you keep telling yourself it's good, it's good, it's good, but it's not and just because you're telling yourself 10 times doesn't make it better. You know, if you say Bs, Bs, Bs, you know, it remains BS, just because you call it five times, it's true, it's good. It's not good.
Greg Voisen
Well, your your correlation or your analogy about high blood pressure, oh, or diabetes, they just didn't happen overnight. So this dis ease what I call disease, meaning we're uneasy about something which is now manifesting itself as a physical ailment in the body, because we've been at dis ease so long with whatever it is that's bothering us, but we've been taught, yeah, as men, and I'm just going to say This, that you just keep going on no matter what, right? Yeah. So the question is, hey, are you taking care of yourself? Oh, well, I think I am, because I'm running a couple of times a week. But do you actually go to a doctor and check your blood pressure, or do you actually check your blood to see what your a 1c levels are all of those kind of things. And you you kind of challenge this popular concept of work life balance as a sedative rather than a solution. And how has your own experience growing up without a father at home, shaped your perspective on masculine kind of leadership. Because, look, we have leadership roles as fathers. We have leadership roles if we run a company or we're in middle management, we have leadership roles if we're doing something in the community and we're involved with some organization that we're helping, whether it's Boy Scouts, Girl Scouts, it doesn't matter what it is. The point is, we have a lot of these, and you're saying that work life balance is kind of sedative rather than a solution. Kind of elaborate on what alignment and how it differs from the traditional balance.
Constantin Dietrich
I don't believe in balance, because balance means that you kind of at a state where you know nothing is moving, and I think that's just wrong. I think everything is always moving, so you probably, maybe you are that point for a very short amount of time, but to try and get it in balance is not necessarily
Greg Voisen
what But doesn't the body Tino seek. This is a thing we seek. This body seeks homeostasis. Okay, so I'm not saying that balance is I'm not saying your analogy is wrong by any means. What I do know is when a when a friend of mine is up at Everest right now, climbing Everest today's almost whatever he's at third base camp, and he's going to ski down. Okay, so here's the point. At 26,000 feet, the body is seeking oxygen. So it's seeking homeostasis. It's saying, I want to get back to a part where, hey, I'm burning up. I want to do that. When you do a run or you get on a bicycle, the body then comes back to saying, hey, I want to get my heart rate back to a certain level. I've I've pushed it out. Now I'm not saying that your concept is, is, uh, mislaid. You're saying that you think it's more about alignment. Okay? And so I'm trying to get clear for the listeners and readers what what you mean by that. So
Constantin Dietrich
I think we're talking about two different things. One, you're talking about something that's very natural, and I'm in agreement when we talk about work, life balance, there are these stories again, you know, on the left side and on the right side, and people try and bring these stories into a perfect alignment. So there is balance, but it just doesn't work that way. So if it would, then we wouldn't have this discussion, then we wouldn't have 50% divorce rates and higher. Then we wouldn't have every force child growing up without a father at home. If it would work. Because I just, you know, I'm a very positive person, and I assume people have enough brain power to comprehend these stories. What they are not able to do is to bring them in alignment. That is just not possible, because the rules in the beginning are rigged. They don't want you in balance. All they want you to do is to chase the balance. But there is no balance. I get it. Okay, so you you're
Greg Voisen
getting pills. You clarified.
Constantin Dietrich
You're getting pills to cure all these problems, right? There's every third man over 30 has erectile dysfunction, you know? And you can talk about that all day long. There's probably diabetes a reason. Then there is a mental problem. Is a reason, stress and this and that, and here and there. The fact is, it is what it is. So we got to ask ourselves, why is that that's not normal. That is not what we want, and that is not what you try to achieve, which is why we have fertility issues and and and all problems lead to another problem, and again, the choices we make once you get to that point and you understand that you have that problem now you choose to take a pill and you choose not to look into the root cause. That's your decision. But don't blame anybody else but yourself for the challenge that you will face right after that.
Greg Voisen
Agreed, right and again, I mean in deference to the medical nurses, as we age, depending on how well you've taken care of yourself, the body ages and things happen now. I'm not advocating on the show that people don't take their medication or they don't whatever the point is, is that, yes, that is part of it, but the wisdom that goes along with it that you're speaking about to wake up to what has happened is important. In other words, awaken to really what the story is that you're living, so that you can now change the plot and the story, because you've been on this path. And you know you mentioned in your book, and I think this was a very important thing from here in life, you mentioned your grandfather's role in the July 20 plot against Hitler several times in the book, and this is where you speak about how this family legacy of courage and resistance has influenced your views on what it means to be now the word the title of this book is false king, but You say a true king. So I couldn't agree with you more, but if you would, can you elaborate on that? Because it sounds like it's been an important thing in your life.
Constantin Dietrich
Yes, for sure, an inspiration. And clearly something that I when I look at it, feel I don't live up to many times, right? So there's something so big in front of you that it's very difficult to align with that. Because I, you know, I think that's the greatest sacrifice you can make, is, you know, to say, You know what, I put my life at risk for other people. And, you know, I do what I believe is right, because I see that there's so much suffering and so much pain, and it's just wrong. And not only did he put his life at risk, he put the life of his kids at risk and his wife, and they both made that choice, and they both he died, and my my grandmother ended up in concentration camp. And, you know, those are the challenges she faced right after and for the rest of her life. So I've spoken, obviously not to my grandfather, because I never met him, but I spoken to my grandmother many, many times about that, and it is for me, it is a story that I always look up to, and it's probably one of the better stories in my life. You know, that inspired me and helped me
Greg Voisen
Well, I can only imagine what your grandfather had to do and what courage that that took to do that. I certainly wasn't there, but I come from Jewish heritage, and you know, the numbers of people that were put in concentration camps and then killed is just unfathomable to me. But that brings me to this. You know, in chapter seven of the book, you introduce specific physical practices like the wolf breath. Now it just was on with one of the world's leading breath workers, technique. Why do you believe these embodied practices are so essential for men's transformation compared to purely intellectual approaches? Because, look, there's a spiritual element that you ping to many times in this book. And I think for somebody who had COVID so bad and almost lost their life that there was an awakening spiritually for you, and you've been given a second chance. And the only reason a person would pick up in your case, kind of because you were so manly to take up a breathing would be because you have been given a gift to be here today, to be with my audience, to speak with them. Because, look, you could have been on the other planes, the other side. You could have passed away, but you didn't, and you're here to tell this story for a reason. So why do you believe this is so important, this wolf breath?
Constantin Dietrich
I think, first of all, the the wolf breath, I think there's, there's several things that you know we can and should do, and it really depends on your very individual, individual situation. And one thing that I firmly believe in as a coach is often people ask me, What can I do, and what do I have to do? And I say, Look, I don't know specifically for you, let's say you have a breathing problem, right? Maybe that would not be the right thing to do, but there are other things that you can do. So you really have to look at your very individual situation, how you define whatever it is, how you define happiness. Greg, for you, happiness is different than maybe for me, right? The happy moment. So in order to get to that happy moment, to that happy whatever state and physical state, if that you know, mental state, my job is to show you how to get there, how to get to what it is that you really want and why it matters for you most. And and that is what I do. So these examples are for people to take something that they can use and apply so they understand, but you have to do it in your very own way, because it's yours
Greg Voisen
well. And I would agree with you, and I would also can see that you are a different person than who you used to be as a result of your ICU experience and what happened to you. And the and the book takes a strong stance against what you call the inner enemy. All right, you had a lot of voices speaking with you, I'm sure while you were sitting in that past hospital bed. How can men distinguish between healthy self reflection and the destructive inner voice that you describe? Because, look, it requires a lot of discernment. Okay, there's a lot of voices that speak to us. I mean, you were getting voices when you're in the hospital. And you may have been saying, Dear God, please save me. I have a family. I want to move on. I don't want to die here today. And you were giving prayers of of inspiration to yourself. And I think a lot of men have a hard time discerning, and they don't even know how to speak to a higher power, to a higher source, then let's just call it God. Okay, some people believe in it. Some people don't. But the point is, is there? We do know that from a vibratory level around us at all times there are angels okay, and you had some there with you in the hospital that day.
Constantin Dietrich
For sure, for sure. I first of all, I think we spoke about fog earlier, you know, and about clarity. And I think once you have that, once you get to that state where you are clear, where you're clear about whatever it is that you want to be clear about. And that could be one thing, that could be many things, but the more clarity you have, the less likelihood of being distracted, of making choices that you know lead to bigger challenges. And I always say, we we make choices every day, but we should make conscious choices, and that means you're very clear. You understand if I do this, then that is going to happen, or maybe that can happen, right? You understand that you don't get to the next stage. Look back and say, How did I get here? And this is what a lot of people do. They blame everybody else about themselves. They save life. Why is this happening to me? And I say, No, no, no, you have to turn around. You have to make it happen for you. Life is not happening to you. Life is happening for you, but you have to steer this, which is why I say work life balance. You know you have to manage your work life, right? You can't just sit there and wait until it balances out. So I put a little bit more time into being at home, but I'm not present because I stare at my phone the whole time. It's like you were completely mixing up all these ideas, right, bending reality and truth to your liking, and that's not working
Greg Voisen
well. I can see as a coach, how you would be an exceptional coach for any executive, because you have a depth of knowledge and wisdom that goes beyond what I want to call the mechanized approach to doing it this, you're asking your clients hard questions. You're asking them to contemplate those questions, and you're asking them to take an inner journey, okay? And I think that this false kings is an expose of an inner journey kind of gone wrong, but how to actually shift it? Okay? It's really an expose of your life and the things you've learned, and you put it all together in this book and and it really is a great book for people to learn from. And then question from, okay, and then I would say, hey, go to the Dietrich institute.com and get in touch with Tino, because he's still coaching, and he would love to hear from you. And I would like to ask you this, what single message do you hope readers are going to take away from the false kings, and how will you know if this book has achieved your purpose in writing it, in one sense, I look at it and I say it's to awaken in you what you're doing that you probably don't want to do, but that you haven't figured out how to change yet. And if there's anyone that can help you change it would be Tino. So what are you hoping this false kings is going to achieve for people beyond what I just said?
Constantin Dietrich
I think that book is not just a book, and it's clearly not a self help book. It is, to me, it's an entry point into a journey, a journey that I hope will lead you to us, to the true alpha brotherhood you know, to to explore more than than you know what I'm describing in this book, that whole approach of happening to me and happening for me, I think, describes it quite well. You are in the position to not just let things happen to you, but let that happen for you. So that's really why I wrote this as a wake up
Greg Voisen
call. And how do you define this true alpha.
Constantin Dietrich
The true alpha is, again, you know, defined by everybody on their own terms. But once you get that clarity, and once you go through this process, you will know who you have to be in order to get to where you want to go to because, again, life is a journey. Life is a gift that's been given to you, and you need to treat it that way. And if you just slap yourself around all day long, then don't be surprised that you don't get to where you want to go to. Maybe you don't even know where you want to go to, but that's horrible, and many people get to a point like myself, right? I found myself in the ICU. I had to literally look into these habits, right? And been told it's over until I started to understand what it is. And I don't think that you have to go through this to be honest. I think my my call is to go out there and help people to wake up without having to go through near death experiences. Well,
Greg Voisen
in listening to you one very, very poignant story and a gift for everybody on this podcast, and I was listening like crazy as you were telling your story, and I'm glad we opened with that, because it is that gift you were given that's allowed you to grow and understand what you were doing to yourself. You start about manipulated, how you were manipulated, and your cruels that you are living by, and all the things that you've done throughout your life. And I can see Tino that your journey has been dotted with certain experiences that have given you the ability to coach individuals and to awaken in individuals that they can live their life differently without the fear of changing a course, because to change a course in a direction on a road when you're not looking at perspective, it's like, oh my god, I'm going 100 miles an hour This direction, and now he wants me to move this way, or he doesn't want me to move this way. He's awakened in me, this world that I see is better, and it's down at the Y in the road, not there. And I want to thank you for doing that with our listeners this morning. You certainly have done that. And I want to encourage all my listeners there, the book will be at Amazon. We'll have a link. It's called the false kings. He also has another book coming out right after that. What is the title of that one? Unfogged,
Constantin Dietrich
but fogged like the fog,
Greg Voisen
right, right? Unfogged, F, O, G, G, E, D, but I have had authors write the other one too, on F, U, C, K, E, D, but this is unfold. And I mentioned fog in my question to him. I know I listen carefully, so I said, let's get out of the fog and get into the clear sky, like most airline pilots would like to be in, because they can see where they're going. You can actually see the course. Tino, thank you for waking up and clearing the fog for all of us. I appreciate you. I appreciate your new book that's coming out, and I appreciate you being on inside personal growth. You for having me blessed rest of your day.
Constantin Dietrich
You too. Thank you. Thank you so much.
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Inside Personal Growth with Greg Voisen · Podcast 1234: Give Hospitality with Taylor Scott: Transforming Culture Through Compassion, Leadership, and AlohaIn his uplifting conversation on Inside Personal Growth with host Greg Voisen, Taylor unpacks the message behind his newest book, Give Hospitality: A Hopeful Story of What Happens When We Live, Work, and Love from a Place of Generosity. Drawing on 20+ years of hospitality leadership experience with Disney, Gaylord Hotels, and The Cosmopolitan of Las Vegas, Taylor explores how generosity, emotional intelligence, and heart-centered leadership can spark cultural change—not just in resorts or restaurants, but in any organization.
You can explore more about Taylor’s work on LeadWithHospitality.com or through his Linktree.
Hospitality Isn’t a Department—It’s a Way of BeingTaylor reflects on his upbringing in Kentucky, his father’s quiet example of service, and a lifelong fascination with Disney’s magical guest experience. But what makes Taylor’s message compelling isn’t nostalgia—it’s urgency. As he explains, organizations are desperate for talent, and frontline teams are facing record levels of stress and disengagement.
“We’re not just leading teams—we’re leading people through cultural fatigue, political division, and the aftermath of global upheaval,” Taylor says. The answer? A renewed commitment to values like empathy, encouragement, and inclusion. Or as he puts it: give aloha, and you become a beacon of light.
From Summer Grace to You: Storytelling That ConnectsHis new book isn’t a how-to manual—it’s a leadership fable. Through the fictional character of Summer Grace, Taylor illustrates how compassion, humility, and emotional courage can rebuild a struggling workplace culture from the inside out.
Stories, Taylor insists, create emotional connections. And connection is what moves people—not spreadsheets or policies. Drawing inspiration from leadership fables like The Go-Giver and research by psychologists like Jonathan Haidt, Taylor encourages leaders to speak to the elephant, not just the rider—that is, to connect with the emotions before expecting action.
“Be the Guide, Not the Hero”One of Taylor’s most compelling insights comes from his years training sales teams at Disney Vacation Club. The most effective “guides” weren’t the hardest closers—they were the most generous, emotionally present, and aligned with purpose. As he says:
“Everyone wants to be the hero in their own story. Nobody needs another hero. But everyone could use a guide.”
Whether you’re selling a vacation or managing a team, the message is the same: show up as a guide, and you’ll unlock loyalty, trust, and performance.
What Leaders Can Do TodayToward the end of the conversation, Taylor offers practical advice for leaders ready to shift their workplace culture:
- Lead with empathy: “If what happened to you had happened to me, I’d feel the same way.” Practice this mindset daily.
- Treat your team how you want your customers treated: Culture flows from the inside out.
- Make values visible: People follow actions, not mission statements.
- Be vulnerable: Leadership is a human relationship, not a title.
And if there’s one word Taylor wants you to remember? It’s love.
“At the root of hospitality, leadership, and any community that thrives—you’ll find love. We need more of that in business. In life.”
Connect with Taylor Scott: Pre-order Give Hospitality* * LeadWithHospitality.com * Linktree * LinkedIn * Instagram * Facebook
Whether you’re leading a hotel, a startup, or a school—this episode will remind you of a simple truth: Generosity isn’t a soft skill—it’s the new standard for leadership.
Listen now on Inside Personal Growth and lead with hospitality, not hierarchy.
You may also refer to the transcripts below for the full transcription (not edited) of the interview.
Interview Transcipt -Not EditedEmailDownloadNew TabWell for all my listeners, thank you again for coming back to Inside personal growth, especially the ones that are faithful and come back again and again and again to listen to the show. Joining me from Las Vegas, Nevada, is Taylor Scott. And Taylor has a new book out called give hospitality. He had one prior to that, and another one too, lead with hospitality. And I want to put that one up there too, because we'll be making references to both of these books and links in the show notes below to Amazon for the books. Good day to you. Taylor. How hot is it in Las Vegas today.
Well, I just took a walk, and it's pleasant still right now. So 8am so pleasant. My wife and I were hanging out by by the pool yesterday. We don't have a pool, but we go to a place here in town. We're like, okay, May is still tolerable, but we're right on the cusp. We're about to, we're about to enter into full summertime heat here in the
valley. Yeah. Well, that's when the prices of hotel rooms. And by the way, folks, we're going to be talking about hospitality if you're going to Las Vegas, and not that if you can withstand the heat, you'll see all kinds of deals during the summertime Las Vegas for rooms and you can get yourself nice and toasty. Well, Taylor, I'm gonna let the listeners grow. Welcome to Inside personal growth. Thanks for being on the show. I'm really excited to have you, because you've got a great book here give hospitality, and at a time when burnout and turnover is at all time high, we were just talking about that and then just trying to find people for this industry, Taylor provides the spirit kind of of generosity key to bringing our divides and engaging the best in others regardless of the differences. He draws on 20 years of experience of working with places like Disney parks and resorts, Gaylord Hotels and Resorts. That's the one in the south right down that's one in Orlando, Yep, yeah, yeah, the cosmopolitan Las Vegas. He's crafted really a unique approach, and we're going to get in that. He holds a BS in business administration from Florida Southern College, and a Masters of management and hospitality from Cornell. I didn't even know Cornell had a master's in that. So we're going to get into his book. Taylor, how you know, when you and I did the pre interview for this show, you talked a little bit about your dad, and you spoke about and I still remember it today, the values that he held, and the fact that you just kind of have to keep going, right? I remember that, and I think that's true for anybody. But how did you get into this gig, and what makes you so dispassionate about it?
Wow, that's a good question to lead off with, yeah, but I mean, I wanted to, like my like the story I told you about my dad. My dad always told me he wanted to be in politics, and then he became a lawyer, and he wanted to be in politics, and somehow, some way, just by, I guess, the way he showed up as a lawyer in a small town in Kentucky. He became the go to guy for, like, all different things, and he predominantly did divorce like he was a divorce lawyer in eastern Kentucky. He's still practicing law today, and he would always tell me that I never really wanted to do that, but it's just kind of what came his way. And so he just leaned into it, and I watched him. Obviously, I'm 45 years old, and he's been a lawyer ever since I joined the planet. And I just watched how he approached it. He just gave to people. He just gave of himself. And so for me, you know, we grew up. I grew up in Kentucky, going to Walt, Disney World for vacation, like every year, like since I was five years old, and to this day, I'm 45 and I have an up Disney painting, a pair that I called in my kitchen. But I just loved the experience. I loved I loved the time being there with my family. And so I knew at a relatively young age I wanted to be in hospitality. And so I chose, I chose to go that route. I walked on the basketball team at Florida city. Florida Southern College on purpose. I went to Florida Southern College on purpose, 40 miles due west from Walt Disney World. So I interned there every single summer, and then ended up working in the industry for 20 years, Walt, Disney World, Disneyland, several and then a couple places here in Las Vegas, in between win and encore the Cosmopolitan, as you mentioned. And for me, it's like I was out there doing it. You know, I was a leader of people. I was led by some really great leaders, some really poor leaders, and a lot of people in between. I'm a passionate sports fan. I used to be a basket point guard on the basketball team, and to this day. I still like study and like all types of basketball, Las Vegas, Aces, WNBA. You know, we're tough, tough loss over the weekend here, but I'm still obsessed with basketball. But for me, it was this realization to get into this like speaking and writing and encouraging people. It just was born out of passion.
What do you what did you think you know, as somebody who's so passionate about sports and football, and again, I remember taking my kids on Disney cruises, and just the amazing hospitality from the pancakes with the, you know, with all the characters put on them for the kids, to going down to the islands and then taking the boat around. And it's just the hospitality was amazing and and as a family, going to do that, that's crazy. But I wonder if there you've you've got to have had some mentors, and I had a guy on here just recently that wrote a whole book about two basketball coaches. One of them was John Wooden, and the other one was the woman in the South. I'm trying to remember her name, but a famous basketball coach did have you taken any lessons on leadership or or personal growth from somebody like John Wooden and if they are, what would be the number one for you that you'd remember?
Yeah, for sure. My first book was ball games to boardrooms leadership, business and life lessons from our coaches we never knew we needed. So that was my first soiree into trying to become an author and a speaker. Is I figured I want to write about someone's passion mountain that I knew a lot about. And so when I grew up, my basketball hall of fame basketball coach and Kentucky high school hall Basketball Hall of Fame, Charles Baker, legend, and so he always say three things to us, play hard, have fun, and listen to your coaches. Play hard. Have fun. Listen to your coaches. What I did with that first book is I added one on the front of that and one on the the back of it. And the first one is, is, is just unleashing compassion, and it's just it was all about focusing on other people, focusing on other people. There's a grander plan. Just realize that you're playing a role on your team, and how you show up matters.
Well, you know you're you're a giving guy, and yet this book is called give hospitality and it and not that that's a wrong name, but it's really, give compassion, give understanding, give listening, give all of the things that you need to give to actually make the people feel comfortable, to to allow the people to go, Wow. What an experience. Because when you go to a resort, you go for the experience, right? And and people will talk about the experience, and you say, you open the story with summer Grace and her experience. And is it the koala resort? Is that the one in Hawaii, the fictitional
resort company, okay, okay, look, kawela resorts, summertime in Hawaiian.
Okay, that's what I thought. And I remember being at a Disney. Wasn't Disney, it was, yes, it was in Hawaii that I took the kids, Lonnie, that's it. So what inspired you to use kind of storytelling as the foundation for teaching the leadership and workplace culture. And then let me put an add on to that. You and I just prior to this, we're talking about the challenges that a lot of my listeners out there from LinkedIn, who either run resorts or in the middle of being in middle management, are just like frustrated with, how do I find good people that want to give and make the experience Wonderful? So I think this storytelling is a great way to approach it, but tell us a little bit about it, why you went this way with this book, right? And, and, and then address, if you would the challenge that you and I were talking about before we came on.
Sure, yeah, this was an opportunity to try to practice what I preach. So the first, the last book we did, was lead with hospitality and little bit of a how to based on 20 years working in the in the hospitality industry for good leaders, bad leaders, a lot in between, but one of the main focal points in that message was really this idea of emotional connections, and that all of us make decisions based on emotion as opposed to logic. Conventional wisdom tells us that was let's look at the stats. Or if we're leading people for selling to people, we'll just look at the stats. Just look at much money I can save you. Just Just, just look, look at these metrics right here on the chart. Surely that'll motivate you to act or to make a decision, to change your behavior, to buy, to buy, in whatever the case may be. Yeah, but the reality is that's not true. We make decisions based on emotion. And one of the central points I bring out, and lead with hospitality, is the idea of storytelling like we're all attracted to stories because they're so relatable we can see ourselves and some of the characters. And so I chose to do that, and I love reading leadership business fables, going all the way back to things like the Go Giver by Bob Berg and John David Mann, that's still on the, you know, top 10, top team. I bet
you read a lot of John Maxwell's books.
John Maxwell, John Gordon, who wrote the forward to lead with hospitality. He's the energy bus guy, right? 20 some other books. So I wanted to give it a shot. And so what I trying to do with this is make it a story such that maybe we could all see a little bit of ourselves in summer grace the main character, maybe we can see a little bit of ourselves and some of the other characters that you'll meet as you read the story, and just just an opportunity for all of us just take a deep breath in light of everything we've just lived through in the last five years, from COVID to the shutdowns to the political divide, socio economic, social justice, all of These things that we've all lived through. And this idea, and this, what I've put together here, started during the pandemic.
And, you know, it's such an exciting time, regardless of the adversity of regardless of the challenges. You know, technology is moving us in wonderful directions. I have nothing against it. But the same time when somebody spends their money, I just said, to use an example, my son, I have two grandchildren that live in San Rafael, my son came to Legoland, you know, and it's like, okay, so Legoland is this big resort. And he says, Well, why don't you join us there? You live in North San Diego County, and come in. And I asked my son, I said, How much did you spend for going to Legoland to get the hotel for the kids? And I think it was two or three days or whatever, and and then he had passes for us, which he didn't have to do, but he wanted to. It's like $2,600 I'm thinking to myself, well, from my personal opinion, having waited in those lines, having gotten crappy food, pardon me, Legoland, I didn't really other than my grandchildren, I didn't have a great experience, right? And so I'm wondering what it is that these leaders that you're talking about need to do to step it up.
Yeah, I just believe in the power of this, obviously the power of how we make people feel. I remember like when I first started my first leadership job, way back 2002 at Gaylord Palms Resort in Orlando, they brought a guest speaker in, and he said, friends, let me tell you something you want to work in hospitality the next two years or the next 20 years. He's like, just remember these three things. He's like, the essence of hospitality is the ability to make people feel welcome, good, comfortable and important. And then I went and worked at all these places, and I'm just here to tell you the essence of inspirational leadership, transformational leadership is also the ability to make people on your team feel welcome, comfortable and important. The final point is this is is like what you experience at that resort, or, if anybody listening here, you're thinking about the good experiences you've had at resort XYZ or restaurant XYZ or bar lounge, airline, whatever, versus the bad ones. I'm convinced that people, when leaders, lead with hospitality, frontline teams, will deliver memorable hospitality. Yeah,
it is Taylor just not to interrupt you. But you know, I'm speaking from the consumer standpoint of hospitality, which everybody listening consumes somewhere. They pay for something, they expect something in return. They want to have a good experience, right? And so I saw something recently. I'm going to digress here, because I think it's really valid. You know, there's a chip Gaines and his wife, the gal, they have a little hotel down in Waco, Texas, and they hire disabled people. And there's this guy who's mentally kind of disabled a little bit, right? But he is the guy in the front of the hotel that greets everybody, and they did this, like little documentary about this kid. He could not make people feel any better, because you just felt great, because it's Down syndrome, right? And he loved everybody, and he doted on him, and he did whatever. And they said, hiring those people. Was a key to one of their successes, right? So not, I mean, this wasn't part of our questions, but the reality is, it reminds me of the people that get into my heart, that other people have tried to help. They have really made a huge difference. Do you believe that these resorts should be hiring more of those kind of people to actually give back to that community and have them give to their
to their guests. Of course, of course, like we should all hire based on cultural fit, for sure, does this individual fit with our culture. Do their values align with our values? And then if that's a yes, all right, cool. We'll move to the next thing. What role in the show should they play? So based on their abilities, their skills, their their the way they interact with people, regardless of what they look like, sound like, where they come from, that's the spirit of inclusivity. And thing we all have in common is that we all are human beings, like that individual you're thinking about right now, much different than you. Oh, yeah, but you connected with the humanness that that person,
and that's an important thing. You say and you write, give Aloha that you'll be a beacon of light. How do you define Aloha as a leadership principle, and why do you believe it holds the key to transforming these toxic cultures? Because, look, I've been into places where it just feels cold to go in, and I never go back again to me, that's toxic. And then I have other places that I just love, and I tell all my friends about, well, everybody in business should be wanting me to go tell everybody that I had just a wonderful experience at the XYZ resort, right? Yeah. So how do you how do you infuse as a trainer and a coach and a leader in this industry, give aloha and you'll be a beacon of light.
Yeah, I had never gone to Hawaii ever, until my wife and I got married, we did our honeymoon on Maui, and since then, I've just been, like, completely blown away and inspire like it touches. It touches your heart. It changes you as a human being. We've been back a few times since at the time we got married, I was working at Disney Vacation Club based at the Disneyland Resort, leading the sales team that their primary goal was to sell Alani, Disney. Alani, a Disney Resort and Spa timeshare or vacation ownership, right? So I learned a lot about Aloha, a lot about the Hawaiian culture. One of the things we wanted to do with that resort, with that whole experience back at Disney, was they said big H, little D, it was to celebrate Hawaiian culture. Be very respectful, very sensitive to all things Hawaiian story. And then, oh, by the way, it is a Disney place, so, like, you still can get Mickey waffles there, but it was, like, very toned down. But for me, Aloha, like, when you start diving into it, it really is more than just a greeting. It is a way of life. It's how we treat it's how we have the opportunity. Should we choose to treat other people? And I don't know about you, or everybody that's listening. You've ever been to Hawaii, any of the islands spent it, and here in Las Vegas, they called this place the ninth island. So that's another thing. It's for years working on this Las Vegas Strip. I worked at win and encore for the opening of encore, was the director of red card for wind and encore, that's their loyalty marketing program. And then for four years, I was at the cosmopolitan Las Vegas when we opened that property in December of 2010 I was there for four years. Loved it, loved the culture we were trying to build, and I worked with so many Hawaiian people. And so you start to learn that it is more, that aloha is more than just a greeting. In fact, there's the a, l, O, H, A, like, there's the Hawaiian word for each of those letters, and they just go along with what I just that was sort of like the light bulb moment for me as I was trying to figure out how to package a story that could bring this to life. And it really is. But you know, you speak compassion, I'm going to finish it. It's giving compassion, giving encouragement, giving kindness, giving hospitality and giving leadership. It's just a whole different way of life and a way to approach being a leader.
So well said, and pardon me for interrupting you, but I was thinking about as you were talking about Las Vegas. You know, I'm old enough to remember when Las Vegas was more of a Sin City, and they've now made it into a family place. Okay? That was their big thing was this transition from, hey, we're just a place to go gamble, to Oh, no, we want to include all the kids. And I think they've done a pretty good job of it, right? It's, it's really, when you look at the resorts and you look at what's going on there, it's been going on for years. And years, but when I first started going there, it was not a place just for kids at all. So, so you just use the word generosity, and one of the core messages is that generosity isn't just a personal value. You said it's a business strategy. Can you share of an example where giving hospitality improve the team performance or the customer outcomes?
For sure? Yeah, when I started doing the research, of like, all right, let me just dive into this. Is there anything here? And sure enough, like, it turns out, being generous, it makes us happier. Like, this is research based stuff. It's all in the book, cited appropriately, but generosity makes us happier, makes us healthier, it creates stronger, tighter social bonds between any group of people, and it also has this like ripple effect, like, according to the research, is like it's contagious, whether when we are receiving somebody else's generosity, or when we are giving of ourselves, it's a we it's like a you want to do it again and again and again. And so, to answer your question, I remember back at Disney Vacation Club when I was learning the Disney sort of sales approach. I love this, and it's really inspired a lot of my work ever since, is on purpose Disney Vacation Club, which, by the way, is a billion with a B billion dollar business unit for the Walt Disney Company in the parks and resorts division, where in the organizational chart, a Disney Vacation Club, at least when I worked there, would you find a a title, like a job title with the word salesperson in it. Instead, we called them Disney Vacation Club guides and our purpose, like our purpose, the reason we existed, this was the culture that we all bought into it, and I was in charge of making sure other people would buy into the culture. Is we, we were, we existed, to change people's lives by teaching, by teaching them a different way to vacation period. It just so happens that we were teaching them different ways to vacation with Disney, going to Disney places, and leveraging the Disney membership that we were selling them. So what I saw had, I had 20 real estate licensed time share sales people. Yeah, there were about four of them that approached their role in the show from a place of generosity, literally giving a great experience for 90 minutes the guests that were walking through Disneyland, and they happened to stop to talk to somebody, and they were interested in learning more, so they booked a tour, and they came over to our sales site, and these four or five people on that team that I'm telling you about, and I still keep in touch with many of them today, I watched them, and I was 35 years old at the time, so I was soaking up learning from them just as much as the other way around. And I was convinced from then on, like that there's something to this. When you show up as a guide in somebody else's story, not to be the hero in the story they already have. They already they don't need another hero. Everybody wants to be the hero in their own story. And nobody else wants you to be the hero in their story, but everybody will take a guide to help them become more of the hero. And those are the people that made the most money. They had a couple houses, right? And and they also were just happier people
well, they were no pressure, right? I think, I think here's the thing, look, when you go in this big corporate culture, whatever it is, whether it's Disney or it's any of the others, you're talking about, something that has to be from the heart it, and it's not mechanistic. There's no mechanism to it. When somebody is a really good salesperson, you said their sales wasn't in their name, I get that. But the reality in the end, is there's a transaction that has to occur for this to be viable at the corporate level. But they gave from their heart. They gave the story. They told the story well. They believed in the story. They believed in it themselves. They were ingratiated in the whole experience, right? And people feel that, and what I'm saying, It's a feeling. So those people were the top sales people, because they made the people there feel good, right? And that's something that in both books, you talk about the champion emotional connection with team members before inspiring action. Why do you believe emotional connection, like what we're just talking about is as a leadership non negotiable in today's workforce? Because, hey, if, if I had a room. Like those three people, four people, whatever it was that you just said, and I could duplicate them, like, boom, boom, boom, I'd have a $10 billion organization, right? But the reality is, you don't always get that. It's a very small percentage.
That's right, that's right, yeah, the answer this, this question is, is a little bit of the anecdotal stuff, like stories like I just shared, but also also rooted in research. So go with me on this. When I did the research for our prior book, lead with hospitality, I found research by Jonathan height, H, A, I D, T, he's a, yeah. I know my psychologist and and he wrote a book happiness hypothesis. And Chip and Dan Heath, the great authors of switch, how to change when change is hard. They use Jonathan heights research in their book switch, which sold several millions,
millions. Yeah. So I'm like,
if Chip and Dan Heath can use it, I want to use it, I want to use it too. But basically, what the foundational research is is the following. You know how we have the left side of the brain and the right side of the brain? The left side of the brain is responsible for logic and analysis and intellect, whereas the right side of the brain is responsible for emotions and feelings and creativity and imagination. So Jonathan kite gives us a metaphor of a human person sitting on top of a six ton elephant. The person sitting on top, he calls the rider. The rider's role in this show is to give direction, give the human being direction of where to go. The elephant, on the other hand, is playing the part of and really what he uses as a metaphor for the right brain, which so the elephant is the emotion and the feelings. And so the elephant's role in this show is to provide the energy and enthusiasm to move. The energy and enthusiasm to change behavior, the energy and enthusiasm to even spring into action at all. And so here's the takeaway for you and me and everybody listening that's either a leader or a salesperson or a marketer. If the elephant and the rider ever disagree on which direction to go or whether or not to move at all, who's going to win the argument the elephant every single time for a couple, one's got a six ton weight advantage on the rider. And the other reason is, think about what the elephant, what the right brain contributes to the equation, the energy and enthusiasm to move. The energy and enthusiasm to change direction, the energy and enthusiasm to even spring into action. So I love it, because it's some it's it can be summed up by another John Maxwell quote. You brought up Maxwell, and we use it in all of our all of our learning experiences, leadership on every level. And John Maxwell famously said, we can't move people into action unless we first move them with emotion. And I thought that was a great sort of tie in there. And so that's why I believe, not only from having been out there and trying it a bunch of different ways as a leader, but also experiencing it firsthand from leaders of my own, from coaches of my own, from consultants that I've worked with or for, is if they don't feel it, they're not going to do anything. If I don't feel it, I ain't going to do it.
Well, you know, you know, your story is awesome. That about Jonathan and the elephant, and moving the elephant with the motion. You know, when you see people who train animals, I'm not just talking about resorts, but have an emotional connection with the animal, whether it's the birds at San Diego zoo or it's whatever it is, you can tell the trainers who really love what they do, and they love connecting with the elephants, and they love connecting with the birds, and it is like, hey, we can be one with this. I just watched a story about a lady who rehabilitated hummingbirds, of all things, and you're thinking to yourself, Wow, this lady took on this thing, and they made a documentary about her. Was fascinating. Now, you you talk about, you know, summer Grace's story here, that's what's going throughout this whole book, folks, and it reminds us that hospitality starts from within the organization. Now we've kind of been talking about that. How can the leaders out there listening right now, whether they run a hotel or they run a restaurant or whatever it might be, balance servicing their team with meeting external customer expectations. Because you know you're you have training courses. That's what you do. That's what your company does. So anybody listening here today, I'm going to direct you to Taylor's website and. And it's lead with hospitality.com that's where you can go. But the reality is, is he's got all kinds of trainings. You can get involved with. Go there and learn about his books. You can pick up his books. But how do you get this balance between the people that work for me and my customers expectations?
I think the easiest way, the simplest way to answer that question, is as a leader, think about how you're treating those people that are on your team, and is that how you would like them to treat your customers, your guests and your clients? Because 1,000% there's no two ways about it, what they experience and how they feel is going to get passed through to the end user, the consumer and the guest or the customer that comes through your doors. So I just believe it, and I've seen it, and I've practiced it in real life. When leaders lead with hospitality, frontline teams like you're describing, deliver memorable hospitality. Why? Because of its cultural because it's it's the again, back to values like there's a Roy Disney quote, which I love. Apparently, he said once upon a time, it's easy to make decisions when you know what your values are, and that's us as leaders. So vision is where we're going. Mission is why we exist, but values, values are the how values are, how we do what we do. And so when leaders live and breathe and walk the talk, bringing the values to life is amazing. What happens? You got a bunch of team members out there that are watching and listening what we're doing, what we're not doing. They're even listening and watching how we say stuff, how we do stuff, and so as leaders, the final point is how you treat them. Nine times out of 10 is how they're going to be treating your guests.
You know, I went through this Disney training as you know, there's tons of it and and I remember you're you just talked about Roy, and I remember this story, and I think it relates to what we're talking about here. So in Pirates of the Caribbean, Roy told Walt that we didn't have the money to put the fireflies up. And the reality is, he wanted to make it as real as the bayou that he could right? It was like, I need these fireflies. It's like, and Roy was, he was the accountant side, right? He was the logical guy. No, well, we just, we don't have the money to do what you want to do with the Pirates of Caribbean. He goes, I don't care. We're going to do it anyway. Just do it. Let's get it done, right? And in the end, you can see how the experience of going down that ride and seeing that, I still remember this, you know, you fall into the water, and then you see the people eating at the restaurant. You see the fireflies, you know, and all that. And then the thing climbs back up. And the reality is the experience it really took in the smell he pushed in the smell of the bayou and the humidity and all the rest of stuff. Yet his brother was saying, No, we can't do all of that. And he goes, you have to do it. And you know, it just kind of shows you that the experience that people have, they'll talk about here it is all these years later, I'm telling you in my own voice the experience that I had, and that my kids have had, and so many millions of people have had, going down into that thing. So let's talk about that. You say experiences are nothing more than stories told through acts of service. What story do you hope people tell after working with or for a leader who gives hospitality,
yeah, I just hope that what first like you when you ask him about that leader, you ask him about that experience, I hope that they're going to smile and they're going to remember just what that felt like, and they're also going to remember all the things that They still do today that they learned from that leader way back then. We do this thing, and some of our learning experiences, where I'll and my whole team will do it too, is we'll ask a question like, What was the most impactful feedback you've ever received? And we use that terminology on purpose. We don't say the best feedback, we say the most impactful feedback, and it doesn't have to be positive. And so I always love when I get a few of these answers from the from the room, and I'll always ask the follow up question. I'll be like, thanks for sharing that story, and how long ago was that? Thanks for sharing that, and how long ago was that? And what I found out here doing this for about four years, pretty consistently all around the time. Consistently all around the country. Is more often than not, the people that are sharing that story about the most impactful feedback they had from a leader, and they were probably a leader who led with hospitality. It'll be like 15 years ago, 10 years ago, 12 years ago, seven years. Ago. And my point is that's the magic of showing up like this. That's the magic of leading with hospitality. Is it not only inspires people and helps people today, but it can help them on into their career. It leaves a lasting impact on their life and on their ability to continue to grow, personally and professionally.
It's so true and frequently it's that little story or that moment or that touch or that feel or whatever it is that we get, you know, and Brene Brown is a big one on this. And in both books you talk vulnerability is framed not as a weakness, but as a leadership asset. What was a moment in your own leadership journey where vulnerability changed everything for Taylor Scott,
that's such a great question. Yeah. I Yeah. Brene Brown made vulnerability famous here in the last 10 years. You know, yeah, switching it from being a weakness to could potentially be a superpower. Here's a story about that. So I was, this was in like, year two, I believe, working at Gaylord palms, resort and Convention Center in Orlando. And I was like, Does my first real full time leadership role? Was housekeeping manager for the opening. And I was in housekeeping for a couple years, and then the director of rooms came to me and met me on one of the housekeeping landings at Gaylord palms. I mean, I'm 23 years old, and the director of rooms, like the guy that reports to, like the hotel manager, he came to me, is like, we need to talk. I'm like, okay, cool, about what he's like about your career. I was like, All right, sweet. I got, like, a bag of trash in one hand, bag of dirty towels in the other. I'm like, Okay, let's talk anyway. He's like, we'd love for you to go work on the front drive in Bell services, leading the valets and the bell the bell staff on the inside, taking luggage to the rooms. He's like, they need some help, man, they need they need some of your like, energy. They need some of this magic. I'm like, Alright, let's do it. And I remember being while I was very excited, I was nervous. I was a nervous wreck, because we did, like, major conventions, like there'd be 1000s of people that would arrive all the same time, which means a lot of cars and a lot of bags going in and going out at the same so I was a nervous wreck. And we a lot of pressure on us, because we were often the first impression, you know, like the first opportunity for the resort to have this impact on guests. And I remember my, one of my leaders, his name was George Smith, very common name, and this dude was anything but common. He He had spent 20 plus years working across the street at Walt, Disney World, and then he was kind of on the back nine of his career, and he just, he had left Disney, and he wanted to just work again, so he went and was on the opening of Gaylord palms. But I remember it was a Saturday morning. It was a million degrees, and I'm rolling in. I'm the guy. It was my shift. I'm running the shift, the day shift on this very busy Saturday. Here came George Smith. I'm 23 years old. This dude's like, 55 he'd been doing this for a lot longer than me, especially coming from Disney. So guy like me after interning and working in the start of my career at Walt Disney World, and I knew I wanted to go back to Disney eventually. This guy was like, I watched everything he did, and I put him on a pedestal, and he came out, and he's like, Man, I am burnt out. And I was just like, Well, what do you mean? What's wrong? And he just was vulnerable. This is before vulnerability was like, Cool, 2003 and or 2004 you know, and he just was himself, and he was human, and he told a couple reasons why. And in that moment, I thought to myself, well, I thought I loved this guy before, but now I'm gonna do anything in my power to help him. Yeah, and just would pour myself into it, hook line. It like both feet. And I'm coming from that athletic background, you know, fast forward, like, two months later. It's a I'm on the front drive. It's the day shift. It's 1000 degrees. It's Orlando, it's humid, and George came out to check on things. And I had it dialed in. Man, I had, like, it was, we had a process, you know, where the guys were supposed to stand how we were to pull cars in, and I had learned it from watching them, and I was feeling pretty good about my understanding of the operation, and I had this thing dialed in. George came out, and he's like, T Scott, I like it when you're here. My brother, I like it when you're here. And I was just like, I'm good. Like that. I that was worth me more than any
bonus all you needed. Yeah, that's it. But it all starts
because he was human. He was vulnerable with me first,
words of kindness and words of encouragement and words of inspiration like that coming from your staff. It's like we don't get enough of that right? And you know, you're doing a. Good job. When somebody like that, who you were emulating, comes back to you and says, I like it when you're here, dude, you know it, does it? What was that? Three words? That's all it really took. But the point was, is here was a guy that wasn't vulnerable. Became vulnerable with you. You became vulnerable with him, and the two of you bonded, and that's the truth of it is, is the bonding that took place, man to man bonding. So look, if every leader listening could only walk away from you know, remembering one idea from this book, give hospitality. What do you hope it would be, and how should they act on it? Like, I always like to give people that listen to these podcasts, what are things I can take away, like, right away, what could if I, if I work in the industry, or I'm a leader in the industry, what are some of the things that Taylor Scott wants to inform me of and could help me with and again, for my listeners, we're going to look in the show notes below here, because we're going to have a link to the website, a link to the books. Taylor has great training programs, so take advantage of that and make a connection with him. So what do you want to leave people with today?
I would say love. Like there's a lot of words, there's a lot of stories, there's a lot of books, and it's just really comes down to love. It really does, and we don't talk about it enough, we don't get vulnerable enough, we don't get honest enough with ourselves and with each other. So if you don't remember anything else, just love people. And at the root of hospitality, at the root of leadership, at the root of any society, any community, any work worth doing, you're going to find love. And I just think we need more of that in the workplace. And I think now is a very, very critical time, not only in hospitality, but in all of our society, almost globally. Like, just think about what's going on. Can we all just like, take a deep breath and relax? And there's one statement, like, one of your one of your things, we kind of brushed on it, but we didn't get all the way into it, is empathy. And I believe if there's if there's one leadership skill, that no matter what level of leadership you may find yourself today, if there's one leadership skill, no matter how far along you are into your leadership journey to focus on and to get better at, would be empathy. I didn't really realize that empathy was a skill until about five years ago, when ago, when I did my career switch, getting into all of this. And it turns out it's a skill. And that's really news. That's really good news, because we can all practice it and get better at it over time. All we have to do is be intentional about it. So there's one statement if you're wondering, all right, well, that sounds good and all that. But how do I do that? Well, here's the deal ready. Here's the statement. If what happened to you had happened to me, I'd be just as frustrated as you are. If what happened to you had happened to me, I can't imagine how I'd be feeling right now, that one statement helps us internalize the whole walk a mile in their shoes thing, and it makes it very tangible and real. So just practice that, whether you're thinking it or you practice saying it to somebody else, and watch what happens to your relationship. To use another Disney analogy, and then we'll, I'll wrap it there is empathy. They Fast Pass. Empathy is an absolute Fast Pass to human connection and to building trust with the people that you work with, or that might be on your team.
Well, that's a great way, because what you just stated was, you know, I liken communication from a leader, right? It's like, did I hear what you said kind of thing, right? So let's repeat it back. And in essence, what you then added to that was now that I understand how they felt. You then can say, hey, if that had happened to me, I would have felt the same way. And then you have a way to be on their side. How's that? That's the best way I can say it exactly right, and and that then calms the situation down, right? I know so many of us out there can state times when we've had a meal, and it didn't quite go right. And we walked out of there and said, I'll never go back to the place again, because, you know, nobody really even asked me. And then when I did complain, they didn't do the right thing, right? Or you go to the other side of it and they go, Hey, your whole. Meal is comped. I want to bring you out a new steak, whatever it might be, what it doesn't matter what it is. You're like, wow. These people really get it. This is fantastic, right? And so the point is, is that you want them to feel as you're saying that you understand and that you as the waiter or the hospitality person, are going to make it right in some way. Right? That for sure. Yeah, for sure, yeah. And so I want to thank you for, like, sharing your stories here about summer grace. We didn't get into all of them. But the point is is, go pick up this book. Go get this one at two. We'll have a link to lead with hospitality, to be human, emotionally connect, and serve selflessly. And I think the key is selflessly. When I look at this, and I'm going to end this with this of all the people in the hospitality industry who've had the most impact on Taylor Scott, who were your leaders? What is the one person that stands out Taylor, and what did that person do and or say to you that actually shifted you for a lifetime.
Name is Arthur Keith, and there's another main character in this story, and the general manager that hires summer grace. His name is Arthur, and it's based on real life Arthur Keith. See, I had met him when I was doing my graduate work at Cornell. He is an all he's also a Cornell alum. And when I was in grad school, we had a leadership development weekend, and they invite fancy alumni to come back, people that have gone out and made it, and they've done really well, they come back, and they're a coach for the weekend. And I loved him. I He was my coach for my group. And you fast forward a couple years after I got out of school, I found myself in a really tough spot. It was in the 2000 2009 2010 you know, financial crash, and I was having a hard time getting a job, and I wrote him an email. Cold Turkey, I just wrote him an email and said, I don't know if you remember me, but I was in your group at school, at the leadership development weekend, and I see that you're going to the you're at the cosmopolitan Las Vegas. Congratulations, you're going to be on the opening team there, like I'm back home in Kentucky with my parents, and during transition right now, I see you have this job open. I did the same job over at the wind, and I would love to apply for this job and join the team. And I had no idea if it was going to work, if he was going to remember me, if he would even care, and he stopped everything he was doing, and he sent me an email back, like we're talking like, five minutes later, five minutes Yeah, and he sent my information. He didn't get me the job, but he put my stuff, he forwarded my information to the hiring leaders, and then seven or eight interviews later, I ended up getting the job, and to this day, I do not know where I would be. I do not know how I would have pulled out of that spiral if Arthur Keith wasn't generous, if he didn't give his time, give his talent, his ability to relationship, his ability to do what he did there, and to give his heart for just, just a just a guy. I was a random guy that was 15 years, you know, 18 years, 20 years younger than he was, and he took the time to help. And I just wanted to thank him for doing that all those years ago. And so I wrote a story in which he's one of the main characters that I believe we all can take a few pages out of his brand of leadership, and he's today, he's the general manager of the Statler Hotel at Cornell University. And for the last four years, I've gifted, I gave him and the Statler Hotel all of my lead with hospitality content. And I go up there every three or four months, and I give back to the students. I give back to the school and I spend time with the leaders that work at the Statler Hotel as sort of like another way to just thank Arthur for taking that time to do that for me.
Well, you know, Arthur saw the light in you, right? And I, every one of my listeners, sees it. We can see your energy level, you know? We can see your level of compassion, your level of understanding. You call that tree by the side of you, your your hospitality tree with all the lights on it. I think the key is, is to bring light where there could be darkness. And the reality is, we live in a world, and we didn't get into the spiritual side of this. But I also see somebody who's extremely connected spiritually and is willing to do that. And I think when you find individuals like that, like Arthur did in you, no matter if you wrote him an email or you just call him on the phone, 99% of the time, they're going to respond pretty quickly, right? It's like, I remember that guy because he helped me feel better, or he did something, or he made other people. Feel better, and I think you'd be good there. So Taylor, Scott, thank you so much. This book is out now. You guys can go to Amazon. It says on sale July of 2025. But is it ready for pre sale at Amazon right now? Okay, yeah.
Pre orders are live Amazon, Barnes and Noble books, a million, wherever books are sold,
so you can pre order it. I'm going to recommend all my listeners go pre order that. And if you're really anxious, get this one first order them both as a bundle. There you go. Hey, Taylor, pleasure having you on the show again. Thanks for your generosity to giving to compassionate communications, which is our nonprofit as well. I appreciate you and all that you're doing. Thank
you very much, sir. I appreciate you. Bye.
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Inside Personal Growth with Greg Voisen · Podcast 1233: Outer Chaos, Inner Calm: Anthony Abbagnano on Healing Through Breathwork & ForgivenessIn this compelling episode of Inside Personal Growth, host Greg Voisen sits down with Anthony Abbagnano, a pioneer in the global breathwork movement and author of the life-shifting book Outer Chaos Inner Calm. Broadcasting from Tuscany, Italy, Anthony shares how decades of life experience—including surviving a mysterious illness, navigating family trauma, and escaping a cult—ultimately guided him to create Alchemy of Breath, a transformational platform empowering over 100,000 breathwork practitioners across 40+ countries.
Breath as the Gateway to ResilienceAnthony opens up about how his healing journey began during a near-death experience caused by an undiagnosed parasite. Immobilized by excruciating pain and stripped of all control, his only remaining resource was his breath. Through it, he discovered not only physical survival but a deeper truth: one conscious breath can begin a lifetime of change.
This revelation became the cornerstone of his philosophy and teachings. As Anthony says, “Every new possibility begins with just one breath.” This moment of surrender sparked the beginning of his spiritual rebirth—and ultimately, the foundation of his work.
The Bridge: Reconnecting with the Inner ChildOne of the most powerful elements of Anthony’s work is “The Bridge,” a simple yet profound technique to heal trauma by reuniting with the wounded inner child. Unlike conventional trauma therapies that analyze the wound, The Bridge speaks directly to the part of us that was hurt, allowing integration and emotional wholeness.
By gently reconnecting with those fragmented parts of the self, this method offers a path to self-compassion and authenticity. As Anthony explains, “Most of us become composites of the personalities we needed to invent to survive life. Breathwork helps us return to who we truly are beneath those layers.”
Forgiveness as FreedomAnother poignant theme in this episode is forgiveness, particularly Anthony’s personal story about healing his lifelong conflict with his brother. What he once viewed as unforgivable, he later recognized as a mirror of his own patterns and unhealed wounds.
“Withholding forgiveness,” Anthony reflects, “almost destroyed me. It wasn’t about him—it was about my liberation.” Breathwork became the sacred container that allowed him to release bitterness and reclaim peace.
The Breath as Divine TechnologyThroughout the conversation, Anthony elevates breath beyond biology—referring to it as a divine force recognized across spiritual traditions. Whether used alongside meditation, somatic healing, or trauma integration, breath becomes a compass, a healer, and a teacher.
He invites listeners to explore breath as both a science and a sacred art—emphasizing that conscious breathing isn’t about escape, but return.
Start Your Journey with Alchemy of BreathIf you’re ready to explore how breath can help you access deeper healing, awareness, and peace, Anthony offers a range of online and in-person tools, retreats, and courses through Alchemy of Breath. You can also explore his free resources, blog, and upcoming events on the official website:
alchemyofbreath.com
Connect with Anthony Abbagnano Online: Buy the book: Outer Chaos Inner Calm* * Website * YouTube Channel * Instagram * LinkedIn
“The next time someone says something unkind to you, take a breath—and remember, their pain may be louder than their words. If you stop and breathe, you stop the cycle.”
— Anthony Abbagnano
You may also refer to the transcripts below for the full transcription (not edited) of the interview.
Interview Transcipt -Not EditedEmailDownloadNew TabGreg Voisen 0:01
Well, welcome back to Inside personal growth. And I have Anthony Abbagnano joining us. And you are joining us from somewhere in Italy. I don't know. Remember, you're not in Tuscany. I know where are you exactly. I'm in Tuscany. Andy, he is in Tuscany, all right. Well, I got that right. And we're going to be speaking with Anthony today about a new book that he's written called outer chaos, inner calm. Anthony, do you happen to have the book there? If not? My video guys are going to have it slide across the screen. Regardless
Unknown Speaker 0:41
screen there,
Greg Voisen 0:44
yeah, yeah, it looks good. It looks really good because all we got was the PDF of it. But I want to thank you for showing the book so all my listeners, by the time you hear this podcast, this book will be up on Amazon. You'll be able to get it. We'll put links to that as well, Anthony, I'm going to let our listeners know just a tad bit about you, and then I'll let you tell some of your own story. So Anthony is a visionary breath worker, pioneer and founder of alchemy of breath, which is where you can go to the website to learn more about what Anthony how Anthony helps people through their what I would call outer chaos, so that they can stay calm inside. Is internationally claimed organization dedicated to promoting the integration of breath work with both Western medicine and holistic modalities. With over four years of personal breathing practice, Anthony has established himself as a leading voice in the global breath work movement, giving a community of more than 100,000 practitioners across 40 countries through his innovative brave the world online. And you will put a hashtag for that as well, breathe the world online. Well, Anthony, you have had an interesting story and as much more to it than what I said. But I think for the listeners out there, for many of my listeners, breath work is not work new. Yoga is not new, uh, cold plunges are not new. Hot Saunas are not new, um, but your book is and that's really where we're here to talk about is the book and the breath work. And you know the breath work, the book begins with this beautiful Prolog about elder sharing wisdom. Now you and I have both talked about our age. We're about the same age. I'm sharing wisdom through a podcast, and you're sharing it through breathwork. What inspired this opening and how has your own perspective on wisdom evolved throughout your life and your journey, and obviously sharing it with so many people.
Speaker 1 3:12
Gosh, I think the mistakes add up, don't they, the mistakes we make as we, as we, as we grow up, from youngsters into adulthood, and every one of them, of course, is a learning opportunity. I always used to wonder why I was doing things in life. I was thinking like, I mean, I worked in a foundry in Oregon, all kinds of different things I've done in my life. I was inducted by a cult, and I had to escape just extraordinary experiences. But there came a moment in my life that I looked back and they all made sense. I don't know if you've ever experienced that, that all the diverse experiences you had there was actually as if a thread had been weaved through each experience, and all of a sudden they got pulled tight, and it actually became sequential. It actually made sense, and I think that I've been blessed to have a very varied life, and many, many experiences, and not all of them have been easy, and there have been a lot of mistakes made, but I believe it's in our will to recover from those mistakes and stand back up again, that we really learn what resilience is. And I also have found in my own human experience that if unconditional love is my deepest dream, then that means learning to love myself first in all my conditions. So that means, really a degree of acceptance and a will to be alongside people in any of their conditions too
Greg Voisen 4:57
well. So you know, breath work is in. Interesting work, and a lot of people are drawn to it today. And we see all these various places popping up where people can go to breath work, and you're helping people do it online and in person, and you have all kinds of events that my listeners can attend, and you can learn about that again, and I'm just going to repeat for them, it's alchemy of breath.com. There you can learn about breath camps and his retreats and his breath training. What drew you to this, you know, as you weaved your wife life, from working in a foundry to being in a cult to, you know, getting out of that and then saying, Oh, yes, you know, this is the kind of work that I want to do. And you said, there's a thread. And I do believe there are a thread in a lot of these things, if you have the awareness to realize that you are threading them together. When did that awareness come and when did you start doing this work? Well, the awareness kept
Speaker 1 6:05
you there when you were living these things. But unfortunately, I was in the cult for only about 10 days, and I managed to literally escape. But that's a perfect example to choose, because it helped me understand, as a leader of really a significant breath work movement. We have millions of people that have breathed with us now, and we have 2000 facilitators helping people breathe in almost every country in the world. And it will be very easy to take a role of guru, or for someone to project upon me that I'm the solution to their problems, but I'm really because of that cult experience, loathe to lead people anywhere where they don't want to go or they're not willing to go. So really, this the essence of leadership, to me, is a servant leadership, and that's in you where you want to go. And if we're aligned, then how can I help? And breath has been instrumental in that process for me in my own life, from being a little eight year old discovering the power of breath for the first time, and also many times since, until I became a professional in the field, and since then, I've started to teach, really, because people asked me to, I didn't think that's what I would do at all. But one after one significant breath work, there must have been a few 100 people there. A young fellow from Switzerland came up to me and he said, Can you teach me how to do this? And I said, Well, it's really in and out, right? I mean, it's not that complicated. We're breathing and you're doing it now, you're just going to do it consciously. And he said, No, there's something else I want. And I said, Well, what's that? And he said, I want to be like you. And that really threw me, of course, if someone says that to you, perhaps one's first reaction was would be like, Oh, wow. I must be good. You know, I must be there must be something good about me. But on reflection, I understood that what he was really asking for was, how can you help me be me? And I think that's really the essence of a facilitator of anything in life that we need to learn how to be comfortable in our own skin and not to be a composite of the personalities we had to invent in order to cope with life, not to be a composite of the personalities we had to invent to cope with life And to me the breath and the use of conscious breath work has been the tool, the major, quickest, most instant tool to achieve that state of being, the person I am underneath the facade. It's been the most useful tool to get me there. Well, it gets you anywhere else. It's just bringing you home to who you are, really so well,
Greg Voisen 9:07
I think it is the tool, whether it's breath work in combination with meditation practices, or breath work in combination with many other things that people can do. I remember an interview with George Leonard, and he is the founder of ITP, integrative, transformative practice. You know, he took three practices and put them together. And I think what happens is you help people create an awareness that they never had. And I let's face it, we're talking Eastern philosophy. Here. It is an awareness. It's an awareness of who I am and who I can be and how I can be in the world. And you describe a real, transformative illness that brought you face to face with your I'm going to just say, finitude. How did this experience reshape? Your understanding of what truly matters in life. Because, you know, like when we take this traverse across all these fields and hills and valleys of life, as you said in the beginning, we we gain a lot of wisdom if we're awake and aware. And I think it's important then, when you get to this point, like you did that you you made another shift, but a major shift. So what? What shifted for you?
Speaker 1 10:36
Well, freedom is another word for nothing else to lose, right? That's what Chris Christopherson wrote a few decades ago for a song. And I was in a state of being because of this illness where I really had nothing else to lose. The only thing left to me was my breath, and it was we didn't know at the time, it was a parasite, but a parasite had inhabited my body for several years, and I was reduced to eventually lying down and quite emaciated. I went down to 58 kilos. I don't know what that is, in pounds, not a lot. You know, I'm now 84 kilos. So you know, well over a third of my way was lost, and I was in such pain that I couldn't move. And every time I did move, the pain would be a spasm, which would make me flinch, which would create more pain, which would just set the whole ball rolling, and it would get so intense that eventually I'd get to the point in maybe 15 or 20 seconds of this fleeting pain, I would just just have to just stop moving. I just have to surrender to the pain and be as still as I possibly could. And this was my understanding of what surrender actually means, like, when you finally Stop squirming, something else can happen, but I'm still trying to negotiate with this experience, like, Why me? Why? How did this happen? Nobody knew. You know, this was a mystery illness, and I was probably a week or so from death, and I didn't have answers. I couldn't find answers through song, through prayer, through meditation. But one thing was true was that I had the breath, and I had to breathe in such a way so I didn't even expand my lungs. I was on the thinnest thread of breath, because if I notably expanded, I would feel the pain again, and it would set the whole process in motion. So that was a that was a probably a seven or eight week period of time, and I'm so grateful that it wasn't longer. And I'm also, you know, I was just working with a a client today who's who's 68 and has been in pain since the age of 22 that the same kind of pain. So I was really very fortunate and and it taught me that I can surrender. I can let go of control, and I can just be with my breath, and that will actually be enough, and then everything beyond that. Because fortunately, my wife, who was a friend at the time, is she's an intuitive, and she said, You've got to go see this doctor in New York, and I got into a wheelchair and got into the plane and managed to make it to see this doctor, and he found the parasite. But, but without that, I surely wouldn't be here. And every moment since then, I've understood that the breath is of an abundance that the human mind can't quite grasp. I've I say often in classes, one breath is enough for a lifetime of study. Not even a lifetime of study can really understand what's going on with one single breath. So imagine all the breaths you've taken and you've forgotten, and imagine what might happen if you actually give them your attention, your conscious awareness. Oh, yeah, yeah,
Greg Voisen 14:33
it's you know, as you were telling that story about your condition, what bubbled up for me was constriction versus expansion, because you were having to actually constrict the breath. And I have a good friend right now who's up at Everest, and he's actually going to ski down one of the slopes in Everest. He's kind of a crazy guy. And I keep thinking about the the air, and how thin it is and how much effort it takes just to kind of exist at 26,000 feet, not only that, then to try and ski it. And as you were talking about that, I was thinking about the constriction of the breath. And that brings me to kind of this point of your book, you know, you write about finding inner calm amid outer chaos. Now, the perception is that the world's increasing turbulent world depending on our perception and how we look at it. And I would say, obviously the outside world's noise is extremely noisy, and it's extremely distracting. What practical advice would you give one of our listeners or viewers here today who's struggling to maintain their center, to maintain their calm amidst, amidst this chaos that's in the outside world, versus you providing them with a tool to go to the inner world, which they can choose to actually sustain calmness, peace, joy, abundance, love, compassion,
Speaker 1 16:30
yeah, thank you. Well, one small breath for mankind. Yeah, that's really the first step. No matter what your condition is, if you can remind yourself that a new possibility begins with one breath, and you're willing to make a commitment to do that whenever you find yourself in difficulty, then that opens a doorway to something different that can be noticed so it's not the usual Same old, same old. When you learn to think differently, then different things can happen. So if you can commit to that one breath, then you can use that one breath to create the space for another one, or another 10, or as many as you need. And I think the next thing to do, really to be to close the eyes, if you can, as long as you're not driving or doing something where eyesight is critical, but by closing down your outside, you automatically open your insight. And so the act of taking a breath and closing your eyes allows you to contemplate a different landscape of possibilities, and then it becomes a question of, how do you navigate that landscape? And the book is really a template, if you will, of two things, the natural hero's journey that we live on this planet, but also it examines the stages of life we go through. So whether you are 20 or 80, or anywhere in between and beyond, either way, the book has relevance for you in terms of being able to forecast what's going to happen in your life or being able to put to write something that already has happened in your life and to be able to transform it into the compost for a new being to grow from.
Greg Voisen 18:31
And I love your reference to Joseph Campbell's work, the hero's journey and and I don't know if there's a listener out there that doesn't know about it, but I would certainly recommend to any of my listeners to go get one of Joseph Campbell's books. He's got several about the hero's journey. You You should probably already know about this. What's interesting, though, is the connection to Joseph Campbell for me came through Mark watts, Alan Watts, his son. And the interesting work is that, you know, there is a foundation. So for all my listeners, go to the Joseph Campbell foundation. There. You'll find all kinds of works of his. Go back and look at some of the old PBS things that he did. Now that brings me to this question, you know, you discuss the bridge technique for inner child healing, which kind of seems central to your work, and we talked about this on the pre interview, which was the adverse childhood experiences, the things that people are dragging around from childhood that or are, I'm going to say, trapped inside their mind, subconsciously, what led you to develop this specific methodology, and how have you seen it transform the people's lives that you've worked with? Because, again. It's in the book. So for my listeners, when you get this book, you're going to come across the valley of shadows, you're going to come across the bridge, you're going to come across a lot of things that you can use and apply. But I thought this one was important.
Speaker 1 20:14
Yeah, the bridge was born from my own negotiation with my own inner child. And, you know, I, like many people today, at the time, didn't understand what the term really meant, and and once I did, then a lifetime, the last 30 years, has been spent seeking to understand more about what this means and the tragedy of the inner child. Some of us have that inner child in us now, and it's joyful and playful every time we giggle or laugh unreasonably, that's usually because our inner child is coming to the surface. But also, most of us have parts of our past that we are we have hidden. We've archived them away because they were less comfortable than joyful, and they may have been really very badly traumatized. And so this lends towards now trauma work, and most trauma work doesn't really address that, being that we once were that got traumatized, it's dealing with the trauma itself or trying to integrate it, or trying to with CBT or other therapies, trying to modify or modulate our human experience in today's moment, the bridge is an extremely simple technique of not going into the trauma, but going to The little one inside that got damaged by the trauma, and restoring contact and creating a bridge for that little one to come back into the hole again. So we know that trauma fragments us. It breaks us into pieces. A piece of us breaks off each time that we're traumatized and gets hidden, gets, like you said, Put away, put into the cupboard, or the hidden. And then when we get activated, or triggered, as we call it, that little one might rear up and say things that we don't want to say and get us into situations that we don't want to be in. And I don't know if you know those times when you're you know you shouldn't say what you're about to say, but gosh darn it, you're going to say it anyway, and that's when the inner child is rearing its head and is not with you. It's actually working against you. So the bridge is a very simple six step process to restore connection with the inner child, and it starts off with one fragment, but then it becomes almost automatic for all of the other ones to start moving into wholeness again. So I spoke about the personalities we need to invent in order to feel protected earlier on, this is really about enabling ourselves to uncover ourselves in a in a safe and easy way to shine as the human beings that we are not the constructs that we thought we had to make to feel safe.
Greg Voisen 23:14
Well, no conversation with you would be complete unless we talked about forgiveness and one of the things that you write about is this relationship with your brother, okay, what's the most challenging aspect for anybody listening out there about forgiveness and the journey of forgiveness. I don't care if it's a fellow coworker or a family member or whoever it might be, but in a lot of cases, is it is family members. And I think that, you know, sometimes we're born into families to learn a lot of lessons, and you kind of think it was a mismatch, or you you get married and you expect it to be this perfect thing, and it's not, and you are learning again, and a long life, you've got all these learning lessons. So speak with us about your situation with your brother and your journey with forgiveness.
Speaker 1 24:24
Yeah, thank you. My brother was older than I. He was three years older than me, and he didn't really want me around. And I, you know, I understood many years later, even when my mom was pregnant for the second time, he did not want me around. He was resentful, and so I was actually born into my normal and when I was born was not to be welcomed, and my parents weren't particularly doting or caring. They both had careers. They had a nanny or an Au Pair girl to take care of us, so there wasn't a lot of family. Feeling, but the relationship with my brother was one, as I grew older, that the only way I was going to get his attention was to be kind to him and to be generous and to be nice. So I'd give him my ice creams, I'd give him my share of dessert or whatever it was, I would find ways that I could try ingratiate him, which I discovered then became a coping system in my life, actually further on. But as that relationship developed, I I learned that I needed to be better than him in order to some, in some curious way, prove to myself that I had the right to be alive. It's as if I didn't feel that I had the right to be who I was, because I was kind of pushed down from the moment that I was conceived. So as we grew older, I became I went in pursuit of excellence. I had a career in architecture and did very well, and I had a business career. My brother was an artist and and and the musician and wasn't, wasn't able to maintain a work life or a career at all. And so I was always, in some way, seeking to be better than him, but at the same time, he was also quite ruthless with me. The first time that he was physically cruel to me. I was only one or two years old, and some of the experiences that I had were really quite horrifying and life threatening as well because of his existence. So as we continued our life and he would kept up his habit of diminishing me,
Greg Voisen 26:41
unfortunately, yeah, me trying
Speaker 1 26:43
to squeeze myself out of the box all the time. I, I, I really didn't realize how much anger I had and how much sense of competition that I have with him. It was me just trying to be nice to him, so he would be nice to meet. That was my truth. It wasn't until the later years of his life when he came to live in a house next to mine in Italy, and I was supporting him financially, and I went round one day to take him some firewood, because I knew he didn't have money and he didn't have any firewood, so I took him his firewood in my pickup truck, and I emptied it for him. And I said, I hope that'll that should help you for the next couple of weeks. And he pointed at me, and he told me, just to go away. Just get out of my life. I don't want you in my life anymore. You're not worth anything. Just get out of my life. And so I left, and I was like, you know, devastated. And self righteous and feeling like, Well, how could he, you know, I just went to help him. How could he behave like that? And it took about two to three, three years for me to understand what had happened in the past and also what was happening in that moment, and I thought that what he had done throughout my whole life, when I put it on the scales, was unforgivable, and I didn't want to forgive him. He didn't deserve my forgiveness. He wasn't repentant, he wasn't kind, he he just took advantage of me. That's the way I told that was the story I told myself. Well,
Greg Voisen 28:29
that's how you saw it. And
Speaker 1 28:33
if I was to reset that now, I would say that I unconsciously invited that because that was my pattern, that was my way of coping, to ingratiate. So, yeah, so I would encourage people to take advantage of me, but actually, the whole point of this was that I need I, I needed to forgive him I never had. And the act of withholding forgiveness, almost destroyed me. It actually kept me stuck. It kept me stuck in that rinse and repeat cycle of being nice, getting wounded, feeling bitter. Being nice, getting wounded, feeling bitter. I'd actually entrenched myself in a victim role because I withheld forgiveness from him. So that led me to conclude that forgiveness, is it really a human right to withhold forgiveness? Is that really something, you know, am I? Where do I put myself if I, if I withhold forgiveness from someone, it's like I'm the judge, or I'm a god, a deity of some kind that it's mine to give or not to give. And who am I hurting? You know, it was me that I was hurting. I was in a state of resentment. And you know, resentment means, in Latin, means to feel again. Recent either it means to feel again. So in sticking in my resentment, I'm just feeling all this bitterness, all this victimhood, time and time again because I'm withholding forgiveness.
Greg Voisen 30:12
Well, I'm glad you got to a spot with him where you were able to forgive, because I I know the feeling I've been there. I've done that. As a matter of fact, it's interesting in your country, my my brother in law is Kim Kardashians, attorney, and he's the one you saw on all the news this last week, because she forgave those nine guys that robbed her and bound her and took her jewelry. And he said it changed the whole trajectory of her life, but she forgave them. So in the court, she forgave them. Now I'm sure, from my brother in law's standpoint, because he's an attorney, it was a different situation, because I know him really well, but as I listened to the words and how he spoke to the media. It was interesting what Kim was able to finally come to but he did say it has really changed her whole life and the way she lives her life and and that brings me to this point. You talk about spiritual seekers getting stuck in what felt like this peak experience. And what practices helped you to continue evolving, rather than attaching to any particular stage of growth, because you know, to this example about your forgiveness of your brother, it's a point where you were stuck. We all get stuck. People are stuck out there and they can't forgive somebody, or they can't love somebody, or they've got an issue coming to an agreement with somebody. There's a lot of conflict. How do you tell people to get unstuck? And what is the breath work do for helping people get unstuck.
Speaker 1 32:04
These are such huge questions. Thank you. It's a brilliant question, like I said in the beginning, and I wasn't being flipped when I said it starts with one breath and giving your consciousness to that one breath, but really the magnificence of the power of the breath. And if you look in any religious document, you'll see the breath referred to as a supernatural power, if not THE POWER OF GOD itself. And no matter what your understanding might be, the God of your understanding, the breath has been considered for millennia as being of Divine Proportion and divine force. And so when we breathe in particular ways, and we allow this consciously, allow this energy, this prana, as the as the Indians would say in Sanskrit, when we allow this to enter our physical body, some extraordinary things happen, and they're actually not extraordinary. They're just extraordinary to us because we are unfamiliar with it. But the more that we make the breath our best friend, the more intimacy that we create with our breath, the more likely we are to start noticing things differently, and when we change our perspective, then everything else changes, just like you said about Kim Kardashian, and the act of forgiveness is what liberates us. Doesn't really liberate the forgiven. It liberates us as the forgive us from being bound to the victimhood that we once experienced. So these are the kinds of realizations that become not just easy, but emphatic and clear and undeniable. When we use our breath consciously, we begin to see the other side of the coin, as it were.
Greg Voisen 34:01
Well, I think that this book is a book that everybody should go out again. You want to hold that up one more time, just so we can see it. I don't have a copy of it. I have a PDF, but there it is. It's inner chaos, outer chaos. I'm sorry, inner calm. This is an introduction, I think, to Anthony, to his breath work. But it's also more it's about the stories we've just talked about, about the wisdom that you can actually receive as a result of this. And I just want to encourage my listeners, Anthony, to go to your website. There are free offerings. There's free breathwork sessions. There's breath the work fundamentals. Course, there's three ways to reduce anxiety. There's retreats, as I said, there's the breath camps, and it's got them listed all the way through August. I. And the events and certainly reach out. Sign in, sign up. Look at the blog. You can find Anthony out there on YouTube as well. It's a pretty big YouTube channel, as a matter of fact, showing him doing the breath work with people. It's been a pleasure having you on the show. It's been a pleasure spending a few minutes with you, speaking about your book, your philosophy, your wisdom. Is there anything you'd like to leave the Listen listeners with, as we kind of part this interview, and I'm looking forward to seeing you, by the way, at the end of June and first part of July here in San Diego. So I know you're coming to the SHRM conference, and I can't wait to meet you personally and sit down have a cup of tea. But what do you want to tell the listeners today, if there's any one thing as you leave here, what would you what would you inform them of?
Speaker 1 35:55
You know, the next time someone says something to you that feels unreasonable or unkind or hurtful, breath and contemplate the fact that that person who has hurt you is suffering themselves. And if you can be the one to stop and take a breath, you can stop that cycle repeating yourself.
Greg Voisen 36:22
And with that, Namaste, my friend, I appreciate you. I appreciate the book. I appreciate the work that you're doing and your dedication to helping people worldwide find a tool, and I will call it that, because there's lots of tools in the tool chest, but this tool is probably the most important one you have, because it's something you take for granted every day. But if you start noticing your breath, and you start putting your attention on it, you'll find that there'll be a major transformation in your consciousness. So if you're looking to get yourself out of a rut, go see Anthony. Go to this website. Get this book. If you're stuck, this is a great way to get unstuck. And as he explained earlier, you know, and I thought your story was great, Anthony, about the fact that the parasite so this parasite infected your body, and I want to use an analogy for my listeners here. I think many of us have a parasite, and the only way to get rid of this parasite is really to actually breathe through it, to and to heal through it. So thank you for what you're doing, and thank you so much for this new book. I really am. Just can't wait to get my own physical copy from from from Kim but, or from Kelsey, but I will, all right. You take care, Anthony.
Unknown Speaker 37:57
Great. I'm looking forward to see you in San Diego. You.
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Inside Personal Growth with Greg Voisen · Podcast 1232: Peernovation Second Edition: Forged by CEO Forums – How Teams Thrive Through Collective IntelligenceIn this episode of Inside Personal Growth, host Greg Voisen sits down with Leo Bottary, acclaimed author and thought leader in team performance, to dive into the second edition of his influential book, Peernovation: Forged by CEO Forums. Perfected for Teams.
Leo brings a wealth of experience in leadership development and group dynamics, honed through his work with organizations like Vistage and his deep research into peer advisory models. This updated edition of Peernovation expands on his original work by offering frameworks that empower organizations to shift from siloed, hierarchical cultures to collaborative, high-performing teams.
From “Me” to “We”: The Power of Peer CollaborationLeo shares his personal transformation from an individualistic mindset to embracing collaborative intelligence—a journey that began when he joined a graduate cohort built around mutual learning. He highlights how collective learning environments empower individuals to lift each other up, enhancing outcomes for all involved.
“Great things are accomplished by collectives, not individuals,” Leo says, echoing the servant-leadership ethos of thinkers like Peter Senge and Robert Greenleaf.
The Five Factors That Drive Team SuccessAt the heart of Peernovation is a five-factor model: the right people, psychological safety, productivity, accountability, and leadership. According to Leo, many companies struggle most with psychological safety, the foundation that allows teams to take interpersonal risks, speak up, and ultimately, innovate.
Drawing from thinkers like Amy Edmondson and Timothy Clark, Leo emphasizes that psychological safety isn’t just a soft skill—it’s a performance multiplier. Teams that feel safe perform better, adapt faster, and hold themselves to higher standards of excellence.
The Learning-Achieving-Celebrating CycleA standout addition in the second edition of Peernovation is the inclusion of “celebrating” as a distinct stage in the learning-achieving cycle. Too often, Leo observes, organizations rush from one milestone to the next without pausing to reflect or recognize their wins. Celebration, he argues, boosts morale, builds confidence, and renews momentum.
AI and the Future of Team CollaborationLeo also discusses the role of AI in reshaping organizational dynamics. Rather than replacing human contribution, AI can enhance peer forums, accelerate brainstorming, and improve decision-making by analyzing patterns in team communication and behavior. This blend of human and artificial intelligence forms the next generation of “collective intelligence.”
Creating Peer Forums Inside (and Outside) Your CompanyWhether through external CEO groups like Vistage or internal cross-functional peer forums, Leo encourages organizations to create spaces where peers can challenge, support, and elevate one another. Internal groups offer context-rich feedback, while external forums provide perspective and insight from different industries.
“The best-performing teams are not top-down hierarchies,” Leo explains. “They are peer-driven systems where leaders create environments for greatness to emerge.”
Kindness, Culture, and the Soul of BusinessThe episode closes on a deeply human note, as Leo reflects on why he ends Peernovation with stories about kindness and what he calls “blue backpack leadership.” For Leo, the future of business isn’t just about performance—it’s about recognizing our shared humanity and creating cultures where people can show up fully, contribute meaningfully, and thrive together.
Learn More About Leo Bottary: Book: Peernovation Second Edition: Forged by CEO Forums. Perfected for Teams* * Website * YouTube Channel * Instagram * Facebook * LinkedIn
Want to listen to the full conversation? Catch this powerful episode on Inside Personal Growth and explore how peer-powered collaboration can transform your team.
You may also refer to the transcripts below for the full transcription (not edited) of the interview.
Interview Transcipt -Not EditedEmailDownloadNew Tab0:02
Well, welcome back to another edition of Inside personal growth. And actually, he lives in Carlsbad, but he's joining us from Chicago because he's doing business there is Leo Bottary, and Leo joined us on Inside personal growth, and you guys can see the picture of his book behind him, but also, for this video YouTube channel section, there'll be a book that will be flying in across the screen, so you guys will get to see that. But I'm really thrilled to welcome you back to the show, Leo, how are you doing? Oh, wonderful. Thanks so much for having me. It's great to be here. You look great. And I was telling you prior to us getting on, look at the backdrop. I mean, here this guy is traveling, and he's got a great his own great backdrop. There
0:49
a claimed author, peer innovation, Second Edition. Leo is a thought is a thought leader who has transformed how we understand the power of peer relationships in business and leadership. He's no stranger, as I said to our show, we're going to put a link to it. He joined us previously for podcast 749 to discuss his insightful book, what anyone can do, where he explained how the people we surround ourselves with help us achieve goals, and today returns to build on those concepts with this latest work, in the second edition of peer innovation, Leo explains this groundbreaking ideas about harnessing the collective genius of group to drive Innovation to achieve remarkable results. The book explores how the right combination of these people and practices creates environments where collaboration thrives and breakthrough happens during the conversation today, we're going to explore these key ideas in the second edition and discover some practical strategies for building high performance teams. Leo, welcome back to the show to talk about the second edition of peer innovation. It's a pleasure to have you back on again. Well, looking forward to it, alright, so let's kick this off.
2:11
In the second edition you discuss the journey from me to we. And I believe in that so wholeheartedly, and I think it's an important one. As a matter of fact, I had an author on from Los Angeles that wrote a book. It was all about we right? So can we share a pivotal moment in your personal journey that transformed your understanding of collective intelligence and peer collaboration,
2:44
absolutely. And for me, it's a, it's a very clear cut line. I graduated college in 1983 I didn't go back to graduate school until 2006
2:55
now, in 1983 I would regard, you know, education is kind of an individual pursuit. You know, you sat there and the professor spoke and you took notes and you took quizzes and you're shielding your paper from other people, and it was all this kind of thing where it was very much that's a reverse to do absolutely every person for himself out there. So fast forward to 2006 now I'm in a graduate program where I'm part of a cohort. So now I'm part of this learning team, right? And the whole thing is designed for collaborative learning, which basically, back in 1983 would have been called cheating. But here I am, right in this environment among all these other colleagues, mid to senior level executives. And the whole program was essentially put together to do three things right, learn most from one another, second from the material. And the professor said, and hey, third on the list is anything you can pick up from us. Great. And they would regard that characterization as pretty accurate, because that's exactly what they tried to create. And it was really remarkable how everyone,
4:02
all of the students, really lifted each other up in a rather remarkable way. And it was a wonderful experience, you know. And I even shared the book. I wasn't always the greatest at it at the very beginning, you know. I think some of my, you know me tendencies and some of my questioning certain things about, you know, team members and level effort they were putting in and things like that. But I was fortunate, too, to have team members who were patient with me, who I, you know,
4:30
just did my best to kind of adjust to the type of collaborative environment where I felt like as I went through it, and certainly by the end of it, that I was someone who was hopefully playing that role of making everyone around me better, which is really kind of what it's really all about. You know, it's not just about what I can get from the collective but how can I lift other people up? And so that was a really transformative experience. And when I graduated from that program in 2008 it really.
5:00
Really fueled my interest in a whole different way. About 18 months later, when a position became available at Vistage, which I eventually accepted in 2010 to head up corporate communication. But as you well know, Vistage assembles and facilitates peer advisory groups for CEOs and business leaders, you know, and today in 40 countries. And so what I didn't realize was my time at Seton Hall was preparing me to understand and appreciate this value proposition at Vistage, I think, in a very deep and accelerated way. And then once I got involved there, and I was there for six and a half years, you know, not only played a role in helping them kind of get back on the national media stage in the wake of the 2008 financial crisis. But I think also, really, you know, took to heart this idea that we have a value proposition here that people are not aware of. And that's just not just that was everybody, that's YPO, EO, ref, you go all the way around. Every one of these organizations was trying to talk to people about peer advisory groups. And the reason the adoption of it was so low is because we were basically trying to sell a Mercedes to someone who didn't even know what a car was, yeah. Yeah, I get it right. Well, you know, that's where the first book came from, essentially. So yeah, we've gone through a period in evolution of our society, of consciousness, of acceptance, of this now more so, you know, I went back to school late as well to get a master's degree and spiritual psychology. And the interesting thing was, is we had cohort groups. Now, when I first went to college to go get a business degree, there was no cohort groups. The only cohort groups were you getting together with your friends to go have a beer and talk about something? And I agree, because we've seen this evolution, but still today,
6:55
you unfortunately still see these command and control environments that exist inside of corporations. They haven't embraced this idea of we.
7:07
They still are pushing the button to see how productive everybody is and and I'm not saying there shouldn't be KPIs and this kind of stuff that it is, it should be there, but you introduced the concept of this ladder of influence early in the book, and I thought, how might leaders and help their teams recognize when they're climbing different ladders, and what techniques have you found most effective in broadening this perspective? In other words, can we work together in the same goal, toward the same mission, towards the same objective versus climbing different ladders, right?
7:48
You know you have to care about people, and you have to want to learn. And I think what's forcing CEOs that in this kind of command and control environment today, what's forcing their hand is the fact that they're like, hold on. Now. Why do all my employees, my employees, my millennials and Gen Zs, who, by the way, are 64% of the workforce today, and they're going to be 75% really soon. It's going to be by 2030 we'll point there. But why do they want all this feedback and dialog and all this stuff and right? And it's like, if you really think about it, it's because, in many respects, it's how they were parented. So think about the fact that you and I growing up, right? I'm sure, if it's anything like my household, pretty command and control household, you know, you're a kid. You were told, like, Okay, you just did what your parents told you to do. You didn't ask a lot of questions. It wasn't the idea that your parents were going to learn anything from you. It's like you had to, you know, learn from them. They had the ways of the world down, and you were to come, you know, and kind of take those lessons, right? Well, fast forward that, and you have a very different relationship. You have parents who, I think, understand how much they can learn from their kids. Number one, because they grew up in completely different circumstances. You know, I grew up in the Vietnam War. My kids grew up in 911 so all of a sudden, now, you know, wars are not just fought overseas. They're brought to our shores. We have technology that's different. We have so many things that impact the way that they see the world. And if I'm ever going to stay current with what's happening in the world, it's through them and through their eyes and their experiences. And also that dialog became far richer. And I think because of it, also,
9:25
young people who were taking their first job could make a much more, I believe, immediate impact on their workplaces than what was typical where you're going, you know, in our day, and you're being trained and learning the ropes and all that, which obviously takes place to some extent today, but I think you find that people can make an immediate contribution, and they want to add value, they want to make a difference, they want to do something purposeful, and that creates for a very different work environment that makes command and control, I think, even that much more challenging for those who may be inclined to stick to that so.
10:00
So I think for people who are curious, number one, who want to learn and and realize that you know, great things are accomplished by collectives. They're not accomplished by individuals. And once you realize that you know what I need people to to actually do what we need to, I need other people to help me grow this company and over time, as a practical matter, I think it's become, you know, important for people to embrace the idea that, you know, there has to be a different way of going about it, and it's why, I think, in many respects, you take Peter Senge wrote The Fifth Discipline, as you well know, in 19 92,006 there's a subsequent edition today he offers what He's says is his favorite definition of leadership, which is the capacity of a human community to shape its future.
10:51
It's not about the leader as hero. It's not it's the recognition that collectives accomplish things, and also the idea that it's the leader's job to create the conditions in the world to help that collective belief that they can accomplish great things, they have to believe it. They have to embrace it and understand that.
11:09
And once they do this kind of no stopping, right? So if you think about it, all that is, is Robert K green leaf definition of servant leadership back in 1970 upside down pyramid. Yeah, right. Brought back to us 55 years later, not as a definition of servant leadership, but as definition of leadership itself, which I think shows how far along you know, we've come. And Senge is not the only one that defines it that way, and I think it's something for us to really understand when we think about all those dynamics taking place today, not to mention the pace of change is going to be, you know, off the charts. So we provide everybody better be willing to do that. I think the CEOs have realized that Gen Zers can be extremely productive in an environment where there is a purpose and there's a mission, and they feel aligned with that, because they're not otherwise. And if you are, I'm sure you're correct, 75% of the workforce, then certainly the evolution of the CEO's consciousness needs to embrace this. They need to embrace peer innovation. And you talked about these five factor model, which is really kind of core to this second edition, but it's right, people, psychological, safety, productivity, accountability and leadership, and they kind of form this foundation for peer innovation. What factor do you find organizations probably struggle with the most and why out of those five factors. So
12:47
I want to back up just one second on that, only to say that there are three dynamics that kind of informed the creation of the five factors. So when you look at high performing groups and you look at high performing teams. They typically have one a mechanism for continuous improvement of some sort.
13:06
We call it in the book, we refer to it as learning, achieving cycle second they experience what's regarded, I think, as both intentional and collateral learning. So they learn from taking in content very directly, but they also learn from how they learn,
13:22
how they engage one another, things they learn about.
13:27
You know how to listen more effectively, how to ask better questions, how not to jump to conclusions, rush to assumptions or make snap judgments about things. They lean into their curiosity and ask questions. And then third, it's kind of this idea of the servant leadership triad, the idea that it's not the leader way up here somewhere, and the team down here, the leader is not a part from the team. They're actually a part of it. So and if you think of the leader, the individual group or team member, and the group or team itself being a triad, with all having a considering that they have a shared responsibility for whatever result they're looking to achieve in the middle now it starts to be that it creates a cohesiveness, right? Because when it's not that way, and you've got the team so separate from the leader, and things start to go sideways. What happens? The team's blaming the leader. Leaders blaming the team, it becomes all crazy. So, so, but the idea of those three dynamics doesn't happen by putting a bunch of people and assembling them and hoping for the best, right? So this is where these idea of the five factors come in. You have to have the right people, and for every company that's going to be different. It's why they have interviews and assessments, and they're very careful about who they select, who they believe is going to work best in their organization. That being said, though, you know, as Google, you know, I think you know, pointed out in Project Aristotle, you know, in 2012 when they were determining the greatest teams versus everybody else, it wasn't.
15:00
Just whoever had the best people, that's a start, but unless you create the environment for them, for their gifts to flourish and for them to truly be able to maximize the value that they as a collective, can bring to the table, you know, that's really where the rubber meets the road, and it is still, I think, a very big challenge for a lot of companies, in part because they don't always make the connection between the fact that if you can create an environment where there's a great deal of psychological safety, right, as Amy Edmondson would say, that it's it's safe for interpersonal risk taking that people you know encouraged to you know, engage in what should be a free flow of information about what's really happening at the company at any given time, and for the CEO, What greater gift right to really be able to have that information you know at hand, to feel that sense of belonging, to believe that
15:58
you know if they take ask questions or admit mistakes, and not feel like they're going to be vilified for it, that they can contribute an idea, no matter where they are in the hierarchy of the organization, that their voice will be heard and last, but not least, and this, you know, kind of comes from, you know, Timothy Clark and his four stages of psychological safety. It's that you can challenge the process or even challenge the leader, if it's in service of what we've all agreed to do together. Now that's a high bar for a lot of companies to achieve that level of psychological safety, but what they often miss, and again, Amy Edmondson makes a wonderful connection here, is that the higher the psychological safety, the greater that a company's capacity is to truly harness that psychological safety and leverage that the more likely they can set really high standards for themselves, expectations of themselves and others and what they're capable of doing. It's actually a, you know, a precursor to creating an environment of accountability that isn't about playing defense when you come to work every day. It's about people who influence one another in a way where we own our craft, we care about one another, we care about our clients, we care about doing great, great work. And when we do that, now you've got a peer driven model where people are are creating the level of excellence that you're going to find in the top sports teams, top symphony orchestras, top military units, whatever it may happen to be, it isn't about top down leader directing at all.
17:32
It's about leader creating the environment for peers to come together and truly engage in a met in a way that allows their talents to flourish. That, to me, still remains the biggest challenge of companies are creating that level of psychological safety, and it's not easy. And so between the first edition and the second edition, have you gained any insights about psychological safety that you'd want the listeners to understand? Because I know there's two editions of this book now, right? So the question now is, you know, you've been out there in the trenches, and I'm going to use the term connecting the dots, coaching people, bringing people together, you and your team of nine. And for my listeners, we'll give you the website here in a second where you can go and learn more about peer innovation. But is there been any major insight that Leo's had as a result of being in the trenches doing this work?
18:32
What I think I've seen is what Timothy Clark and Amy Edmondson put together on the academic side, and watched it play out in action. Watched it play out in groups, watched it play out in teams. It's one thing to have it set up as theory. I was very fortunate where Amy Edmondson agreed to write the forward of my book, and she opens by talking about the fact that this is a real match in terms of what she has discovered and uncovered and written about for decades now, and how it lines up with the
19:07
work that I've done in the field, and what's happening inside of organizations and groups today. So I think it kind of just reinforces that idea and obviously creates that connection to the fact that psychologically, psychological safety helps teams drive their own standard of excellence in a way that's rather remarkable that, you know, and I've participated in it. I've certainly one particular company I worked for that
19:37
did what I think was superhuman things in many respects. And it's not because you had the leader be doing the command and control, pounding on everyone. It's they created a culture where everyone just made each other better. Well, innovation, innovation thrives in an environment like what we're talking about, and yeah, literally gets retarded in the other kind of environments, because people.
20:00
Little are afraid. There's fear, there's percussions versus Hey, why don't you learn? If you make a mistake, it's okay, right? We're going to learn from our mistakes. Now, you don't want to keep doing the same mistake, which we've always said, but in this edition of the book Leo, you had this learning, achieving cycle, and it was kind of an enhanced in this edition to include celebrating as distinct stage. So that's a celebrating is, you know, you don't always hear that word being used in business celebrating, right? It's like but it should be. Why do you think celebrating is so often overlooked, and what are the costs of this oversight? In other words, like, hey, we need to celebrate our achievement. I know at one point in this book, you talked about the Apollo 13 mission, right? And, and there's a very good correlation between that and the ability to kind of celebrate, because, you know, yeah, we did, had some issues, but in the end, we celebrated, right? Well, that's for sure. But you know, when we think about celebrating, and that learning, achieving cycle, by the way, is learning, sharing, applying, achieving. And back in the first book, I really thought about achieving as and celebrating, the celebration would be part of the Achieving stage right until the more companies, the more groups I've visited, and I'm saying, wait a second, they're achieving, and then they're all about what's next, what's next, what's next. And if you think about trying to really drive that continuous improvement mechanism right, to drive that cycle, you need something to kind of boost you around to be able to do that kind of using if you want to talk about Apollo 13, we've got to complete the orbit somehow, and we need that little energy to take us over the hump. Yeah. And so when we achieve something and we don't celebrate it,
21:53
you know, it becomes exhausting, quite frankly, for people,
21:58
and there's a few issues with it, right? Well, again, when we achieve and we celebrate that win, it kind of drives us to want to learn and do more. And so the celebration is an is an important part of it. It also serves to
22:12
inspire confidence in your team. So, you know, without getting into some long stories about this, you know, suffice it to say that
22:23
we're always looking at what's next, and we're not looking at, hey, look where we were a year ago, and look where we are today, and see and, and when you do that, what you're saying to your team is whatever challenges you're grappling with right now that have you, you know, feeling anxious or something like that. Look, we were a year ago. Look, we were now. And by the way, we say, we face those same challenges and then some. And you prevailed in a way that was rather remarkable. And we've our team is wired to do this, you know, and and it gets your team to believe in themselves and understand that, yeah, you know, we can roll up our sleeves and work together. We're going to make this happen, because that's what we do. Well, it's because it becomes those reminders, yeah, it becomes part of the DNA, right? The longer you're doing a certain fundamental element, which in this case would be called peer innovation. And that brings me to this next question. Is, I'd like you to elaborate for the listeners, if you would please, on the unique benefits of creating forums within the company, as opposed to having these executive joint external like peer group situations. And when might each of each of these people kind of approach
23:39
and this be the most valuable thing for them to do, right? Yeah, and it doesn't necessarily need to be an either, or it could be an and because they both very different value propositions, right?
23:52
Let's start with a group outside your company. What that helps you do is pick your head up, outside of your company, outside of your industry sector, right? And be with a group of people who share there could be, you could be CEOs, you could be key executives in your company, whatever you share, some common
24:11
position challenges where you can kind of empathize with one another and kind of learn from it's a Vistage group, right? It's, you know, it's, it's, yeah, I mean, it's a Vistage group. And, you know, there's a whole, you know, cadre of organizations out there putting these things together and and they're very powerful. And you, you learn from one another in that environment, ways where you not only can talk about the shared challenges you're having, but I think, very importantly, you you'll become acquainted with a process that somebody in another industry does, and you think to yourself, Wow, that's unheard of in our industry. But you know what that could work for us and maybe even be a competitive differentiator? These are things you're never going to find out unless you kind of, again, pick your head up and kind of become exposed to those things going out there. I like your example.
25:00
Leo, because we learn, because we shift our perspective. It's like having a picture of yourself against the wall and you being nose up to that picture. You know, you can't see something until you step back and get a different perspective, to actually see what's going on, to see the various colors in the picture and so on. So sometimes we lose focus, and I think these groups help us actually refocus. Both of the groups we're talking about help us refocus, but the ones outside, like Vistage actually usually are aha moments where people wake up to potentially something different. Would you agree with that? They are and and the groups are extraordinary. There's no question about that. And I think it's, you know, for most people that I talk to about it, particularly CEOs, their number one comment to me is, I wish I had done this sooner. I mean, it kind of says it all, you know when you think about that now, for the inside groups, they can be really powerful to have groups working alongside your teams. And people were like, Well, why is that necessary? Why does it make any sense? If you think about a group and a team, a group is assembled largely for the benefit of the individual members, a team is put together out of the create a shared work product or to win an NBA championship or do something that only a team can do
26:27
together. So teams aren't always wired to be able to help people become better individual contributors.
26:36
That's number one.
26:38
So when you put a group together, particularly, and I love it inside companies where you create a cross functional work team is a good example. So I bring in, let's say, director level. We've got marketing and finance and sales and all that. We've got these people in a room most of the time. If I say to the fight to the marketing person, hey, do you know what the finance person does all day, like, I have no idea, alright, no clue. He says no to me all the time. It's kind of the frequent response, and everyone laughs and all that. But now you start Okay, well, let's go with that a minute. Well, he says no to you. You don't know why. What starts to happen after he says no a few times, boy, that person is just uncooperative. They're not helpful, they're a jerk, they're this. And all of these things start happening because you don't know their job, let alone know them. And yet you will fill in gaps of a narrative like that with your own stuff, as we as we often do and and yet, if, when you put people together and you actually kind of understand what their what what their job is all about. What are the things constraining them? What are the things how do I as a marketing person? How can I go and speak the language of the finance person so that we can actually have a dialog about what I'm looking to do? Because I don't look I shouldn't see that person as some gatekeeper who's trying to just not spend any money. What I should see it is we are partners together and making sure we're making good investments on behalf of the company. And I need to be able to make the case that this is that, or, if not, that's okay, and we move on to the next thing. But then you can start building relationships, and you can start recognizing that this cross functional work team that operates in silos, there's a big reason for it, right? They don't know what each other does. They stay in their own lane. They do their own thing, and the idea of them collaborating is almost off the table. Yeah, I once heard it. I once heard it said by a gentleman who counsels chief growth officers inside companies that the the CEO and and the board are kind of so disconnected because the metrics so, you know, here you have somebody who's in charge of growing the company right, yet at the same time they gave them a goal and said, Go forth. And this guy would say, you know, it was always amazed me at how little they would really want to understand what the hell it was I was doing, because they were looking at other numbers and whether they were manufacturing or whatever, and it seems like just such a big disconnect, right? It's like you've got somebody here you're paying, you know, high six figure income to to help you grow this company, right? And you're never talking to them, right? You're not talking to them often enough, at least. And the other dynamic around that is, how does it feel when someone gives you a goal? You realize they know really not anything about what you do or how you do it or anything, yeah. And then you find, well, where does this come from? Like now, so, and now I don't own this goal in any way. I'm just being held accountable for it, and it creates this you're playing defense right out of the gate, pretty much, right? And it's such a you know? And I think most companies today, when they find out, when they involve their people in the setting goals, when they have them doing that, what?
30:00
Difference it can make. And because, again, you know, as we all know, when we create something, we now have a stake in its success. When someone else created it, it's their idea that either failed or didn't make it Well, I think it's important when somebody your senior takes interest in you and you're included in the actual goal setting process, is somebody just saying, Well, I'm going to give you this goal and, you know, you go do it and whatever, because that just is, like, it's lonely.
30:28
Now you do have a couple of questions for you before we kind of wrap this interview up. But one of them that I think is affecting positively, and potentially for some people they might look at negatively, is, you know, we all are using AI, right? It's like transforming the dynamics of our workspace.
30:51
And so how do you see i ai transforming the dynamics of peer forums and organization, organizational team collaboration in the coming years, because I know I just even myself with my consulting company use AI, 4567, times a day, sure, right to do tasks that are allowing me to do them in like 1/10 of a time that I would normally do them. So now people have more time on their hands. Or is the organization saying, Oh, no, you've got this AI now, now we're going to actually just put more on your plate.
31:31
Well, what I like about it is that it gets leaders focusing on things that they probably didn't feel like at the time or interest to focus on before
31:44
it's this idea. You started off by talking about command and control and power cultures and things like that, where everyone looked at their organizations as a vertical construct. We had our CEO and the executive team and the SVPs, VPS, directors, managers and all that. Yet it's really what runs horizontally through our companies, it gives that vertical structure its strength. And what AI can allow us to do is understand a lot of those interrelationships.
32:09
I found it interesting, from what I understand at Davos this year the World Economic Forum, using AI, they were able to make recommendations to the attendees about who to connect with over the course of the conference because of various interests and things like that that you never would have come up with on your own. Right.
32:29
You know the there's brainstorming, there's collaboration, there's being able to use an understanding of the horizontal dynamics in your company to drive engagement. So I think there's a lot of really positive things,
32:44
you know, that are going to be, you know, part of that. And I think the same holds true when you look at groups, and you can use AI, for example, to put in a whole lot of data about what's going on, you know, with a lot of these companies, and figure out, hey, from a content perspective, what would be the best use of our time in terms of the subject areas we want to cover together that give the most value to the most people. So there's any number of things, and, you know, I think at least four peer groups for teams for all of us, it could be a very exciting time that will actually help us truly achieve that collective intelligence that you mentioned, right? That it's not just about human intelligence, but it's human intelligence combined with artificial intelligence to creating that real collective intelligence and seeing it as an asset.
33:30
I'm already seeing teams, you know, in companies all over,
33:35
you know, Lockheed Martin, for example, what they are doing, and their cross functional teams on the communication side to experiment with AI in a real iterative approach where they are trying all kinds of different things and yet coming together and forming each other about what they're seeing and how they can just build, you know, things very, very quickly in that regard. And you know, I just really enjoy,
33:59
you know, watching that kind of collaboration, driven by curiosity toward something new in the marketplace, that they're recognizing that better we embrace it. And I think that this is where they discover and Well, I think it's really pretty fun stuff. Most business people are embracing it. And I love what tego fuerte says is that it's the second brain, and for to a large degree, you know, I think that's the way you should look at it for now, it's like, Hey, I have someone else that's thinking for me, and I need to get help. And I look at it as, you know, YouTube, everybody goes to to get help on how to put something together, or how to do something, right? I see AI as a way, as you say, as a brainstorming tool, as a way to do it. It also is doing some of the perfunctory things that you would normally do at much greater speeds. So it's saving you time that like crazy. I mean, it's like having.
35:00
And for me, it's like having 10 other employees. So the we have to assist, AI too, yes. In other words, we put something and say, Okay, what they just gave me is 100% perfect, correct? It also needs a little bit of that human touch, it does, you know, and some of the nuances and things that we bring to the table. So that's what that partnership, I think, is powerful. And to your point, no question. Boy, it can be a time saver in so many respects. It is, and it's, it's, it's wonderful. Now, you know, you wrote this second edition post pandemic, right? So look, COVID was like a big deal inside of businesses and how people met, and you know, whether or not people are going to stay away from work or they're going to come back to work, and we're still seeing quasi hybrid models of all of this, because it really did change the work environment. It reshaped it.
35:50
What surprising lessons about peer innovation have emerged during not only the global disruption, but now what you're doing in re kind of reshaping and rethinking how you do it with these teams, right? Because you now have teams that are, I could almost guarantee you, scattered across the globe in the size companies you're working for, where it was like, Okay, well, I know my son is an executive at Adobe, and it's working in five different time zones, and trying to meet people on Zoom, like you and I are doing right now. This didn't exist to the degree, as you know, prior to
36:33
the pandemic. And yes, it did. I mean, Skype was out there, which no longer is anymore, the other day, but there wasn't anything to this degree. And it is amazing what we're able to do now and accomplish without having physical connection. But the The downside is, I think not having physical connection
36:59
is a challenge.
37:03
I think it can be. I don't think there's any question about that. And I think there's a lot of studies out there, and a lot of what companies are doing today that's kind of heading in that direction where people at least a hybrid work environment, offering some flexibility, but trying to facilitate human connection as well. And you know, the good thing about peer innovation, though, is that it doesn't matter what the construct is. It doesn't matter for the remote workers, hybrid workers, or everybody's in the office.
37:33
We don't tell people what they should do and how they should do it. All it does is provide them the models and frameworks to determine for themselves, regardless of their construct, how we can create clarity among one another about what we expect of ourselves and others right, how we can communicate more effectively, how we can collaborate in a way where we can be more productive, and how overall, we can improve our capacity as an organization to do what We need to do, and hopefully take a little pressure off, you know, folks at the same time. So,
38:06
you know, it just becomes much less stressful when you think about it. Our stress oftentimes comes from a lack of clarity. It comes from a lack of certainty. And so the more that we can create a mechanism that, you know, fills that gap for us, the easier it becomes to collaborate and cooperate with one another. It's perfect. Now like you conclude this book with really several powerful stories about kindness and blue backpack leadership. And I guess the curiosity I have is, why did you choose to end with these particular stories, and what message do you hope readers are going to take away from not only those stories, but really peer innovation, Second Edition. So
38:58
if you think about it, the book is dedicated to grandkids, yeah, and it basically talks about the fact that we have, I think human beings, by and large, are incredibly generous and collaborative and wonderful with one another. But that doesn't mean to suggest that we don't have some things dividing us in this world, and there are some divisive forces at work. And, you know, I think it's just a nice reminder and a way to end the book, which is basically say, I think it is our nature to want to work together. I think it is our nature to want to be kind to one another. And that's not some kind of a weakness that is a real gift and a real act of strength and an act, act of humanity that I think is really powerful that brings us together. And I thought ending the book with something as simple as that just serves a reminder, I think, of what's, you know, inside all of us, I think, in many respects. And you know, I think if we can embrace that more closely and recognize that we're better.
40:00
Gather than we are alone and apart. You know, I think that's kind of one of the way I wanted to close that out. Well, I want to commend you, Leo, for sticking in there to do the work that you
40:14
do. You know, inside of large corporations this, as Margaret Wheatley said, it was like its own organism, right? She looked at it from a biological standpoint. And I always loved her and Peter, that you made reference to, because I went to lots of conferences where they spoke. I also went to lots of conferences on with Richard Barrett, and it was the soul of business, right? And I think what you work for is you work for businesses actually recognizing their soul, each and every person inside the company with ability to express themselves and be heard. And you know this isn't woo woo anymore. I know you know you go back when you and I were around him first, it would have been like, Oh my God. What are these guys? What are these two guys talking about? Please? Well, we gotta do is work, and we gotta make profit at the bottom line. Yes, we still need to do that, and you recognize that, but you also recognize that a shift in the consciousness and the evolution of the organization's culture is the way to actually get higher performing numbers. And it's been proven over and over and over again that if you embrace and I'm saying to my listeners right now what Leo is speaking about in peer innovation, and I'm going to direct you to out to go to his website, because you're going to go to peer innovation, and that's P, E, R, N, O, V, A, T, i, o, n, dot, B, I Z, and you don't even have to put the slash home there. You'll get there by just going there. Please do reach out to Leo. Contact him there. You're going to find out about the team. You'll find out about the books he's written. There's a media section as well. There's contacts on there. You can also go up to YouTube and see other interviews that Leo's done, but we want to encourage you to watch this one as well. It's really been a pleasure having you on the podcast again, because I think that this time, it's like you've gotten up to bat, and you're really swinging the bat to make a home run, and I want to thank you for that, and to the team. Any last comments? No, I appreciate that very much. The only thing I will put in a little plug for is the we have a certification program now for people who want to be actually certified in paranovas, so that could work for people who lead groups, who want to imply to their groups, maybe want to extend and expand their executive coaching practice by working with teams, as opposed to just individuals, and also for HR professionals out there, especially if you're at a larger company, and you know certification is actually a pretty cost effective way for you now to take that material and bring it forth to benefit so many people you know in your organization, by just basically going through and having one person do that so well, I'll put a plug in. I know that Sherm is holding their event in San Diego here through July 2. I think it's the 29th through the second. I know that there's some really interesting speakers they've embraced this year around the soul, the heart of business, a somatic, breathing, all kinds of things that you see that they would have never in their life probably touched you know, five years ago, but you are seeing a major shift in it. Will you be at the SHRM conference in San Diego. It's, it's, I'm not speaking at that conference, but it's June 9 through July 2 at the San Diego Convention Center. So, any rate, I know some friends that will be speaking there. I'm going to be there, and I just want to let people know, you know, look, peer innovation should be at that conference, so that's why I was bringing it up to you. Well, thank you. And if, and you know, I actually it's funny, because I'm speaking, I'm doing a keynote at event in Calgary just a few days later, but during that time, I actually am around. So who knows, anything I would love to join, help you get hooked up there. All right? Leah, well, have a good rest of your day in Chicago. I appreciate you, buddy. Thank you so much. You have a great day.
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Inside Personal Growth with Greg Voisen · Podcast 1231: Wise Decisions: A Science-Based Approach to Making Better Choices | Dr. Jim LoehrIn this podcast episode of Inside Personal Growth, host Greg Voisen sits down with world-renowned performance psychologist Dr. Jim Loehr to discuss his latest book, Wise Decisions: A Science-Based Approach to Making Better Choices. Co-authored with Dr. Sheila Ohlsson Walker, the book dives deep into the psychology, biology, and neuroscience of how we make decisions—and more importantly, how we can make better ones.With over four decades of experience coaching Olympic athletes, Fortune 100 executives, military special forces, and top performers across the globe, Dr. Loehr brings a holistic and deeply human approach to the science of decision making.
Why Wise Decisions MatterAccording to Dr. Loehr, we make an astonishing 35,000 decisions every single day. Most are unconscious, habitual, and automatic. But the ones that matter—the ones that shape our lives—require intention, clarity, and inner wisdom.
At the heart of the discussion is the concept of Y.O.D.A.—Your Own Decision Advisor. This inner guide, a blend of intuition, logic, values, and emotion, is what Dr. Loehr describes as the key to making grounded, meaningful choices. But here’s the catch: most people have never been taught how to train their Y.O.D.A.
Key Insights from the Conversation1. Health Fuels WisdomDr. Loehr emphasizes that our physical, emotional, mental, and spiritual health are foundational to making wise choices. Whether it’s getting enough sleep or staying true to your purpose, decision quality is deeply intertwined with overall well-being.
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Train Your Inner VoiceMany people walk through life with an untrained inner voice, formed from early childhood inputs and often filled with self-doubt or confusion. Wise Decisions teaches you how to retrain that voice through journaling, self-reflection, and conscious practice, turning it into a trusted internal guide.
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Use the 7 Decision-Making LensesThe book outlines a powerful tool: viewing choices through seven critical lenses—including best self, core values, life purpose, tombstone legacy, and personal credo. Each lens offers a new way to vet decisions before acting on them.
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Storytelling Shapes RealityWe don’t just make decisions—we justify them through stories we tell ourselves. Dr. Loehr explains how reframing these stories can dramatically shift the way we experience life and create lasting behavioral change.
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Decisions as Meta-MomentsWhether you’re stuck in traffic or facing a career-altering choice, Dr. Loehr encourages us to see each moment as a meta moment—a chance to realign with our values, practice calm, and sharpen decision-making skills in real time.
A Practical Framework for a Noisy WorldDr. Loehr’s work is a call to bring consciousness into our choices—to slow down, pause, and consult our own Y.O.D.A. before letting emotion or habit take the reins. His stories, including resisting the urge to buy a dream convertible, remind us how even the smallest decisions can become powerful moments of self-awareness and growth.
Ready to Make Wiser Decisions?If you’re tired of reactive choices, emotional burnout, or decision regret, Wise Decisions offers the science-backed tools to change that. Start building a relationship with your inner advisor today.
Buy the book on Amazon
Explore Dr. Jim Loehr’s website
Follow him on LinkedIn
You may also refer to the transcripts below for the full transcription (not edited) of the interview.
Interview Transcipt -Not EditedEmailDownloadNew Tab[00:00.2]
Well, for all my listeners, it's always a pleasure to have Dr. Jim Loehr back on. This is the book Wise Decisions that we're going to be speaking about and he is joining us from Golden, Colorado.
[00:16.6]
Beautiful spot. Good day to you Jim. How you doing? I'm doing great Greg. Happy to be with you. Well, I'm happy to have you back. This is another Wiley book. He does a lot of Wiley books and I'm going to do a little brief introduction. You don't think you really need it, but for many of my listeners out there, they may not know who you are after all of these years of writing books.
[00:38.1]
So it's really a privilege to have you back on the show again. He's been on the show before. He's a world renowned performance psychologist whose primary work has transformed how we understand human achievement, decision making, for four decades of experience.
[00:55.5]
He holds a doctorate in psychology from University of Northern California and is the co founder of Johnson and Johnson Human Performance Institute. Actually he sold it to them, so I don't know if we call it a co founder. He's trained more than 250,000 leaders worldwide.
[01:14.4]
His research and methodologies have been embraced by elite performance athletes and leaders across multiple domains. From the Olympic athletes to professional sports to Fortune 100 companies to the FBI to rescue teams and military special forces.
[01:32.1]
Throughout your career, Jim's work with 17 number one ranked athletes in their respective sports and, and coaching leaders across Hundreds of Fortune 500 companies. You know, he really approaches everything with I, what I call a holistic understanding of human performance.
[01:51.8]
Now today we're going to explore the science behind decision making and obviously, I have a friend and I don't know exactly lives in Boulder why he made this decision, but maybe you could tell me. He's actually up at base camp today at Everest.
[02:08.1]
This is his third time. He's done all the highest seven sums. He's going to ski down the north side of Evers Ski. Now I, I'm not quite certain why anyone would want to ski down that. But that's the book that I sent you. That's Bo.
[02:24.2]
And actually either today or tomorrow he's going to make the ski down Everest. So you've worked with plenty of people like that. So let's dive right in because this book is also co authored, I want to mention, I don't want to leave out Sheila is Dr.
[02:39.7]
Sheila Olson, is that correct, Walker? That's, that's correct. Okay. And so he was the co author on this book. And kudos to her because, Jim may not have written this if it hadn't been for Sheila. Is that correct?
[02:57.2]
Am I wrong, or would you have written it anyway? You guys wrote it together. Okay. However it happened, here it is. So before we dive into the concepts of the book, could you share the origin story of how wise decisions kind of came about?
[03:16.3]
What personal experiences led you to explore the science of decision making, of all things? It's a great question. I've spent most of my professional life building the Human Performance Institute.
[03:34.3]
We, started that in 1991. As you said in the introduction, and thank you for that. We, probably to date, there's some 400,000 people have gone through this intensive training program.
[03:50.0]
And from every walk of high performance, as you said, we sold the company to Johnson and Johnson, but we have all these people. The program was two and a half intensive days, and then followed up in 90 days and then 180 days.
[04:08.6]
We really tried to collect as much evidence as we could about the efficacy of the training. And we really wanted to do something significant for people. Countless numbers of people went through and said, you know, what we'd really like is to offer this to our children.
[04:29.7]
Do you have this available for youth? We said, no. And they said, well, why wage 150 or 60 to learn these lessons in high performance? Why don't you do this for youth? When we sold the company, we started, the youth, part of this, or, an application to youth that we call the Youth Performance Institute.
[05:00.2]
We, formed a board and Dr. Sheila Olson was on that board. She has her PhD in bioengineering from the university, from King's College, Department of Psychiatry. It's an amazing program.
[05:16.1]
She's a brilliant woman. We both started to think about the most important ground that we have as human beings from the very earliest days is trying to understand what are the choices that should be made early in people's lives.
[05:34.1]
Yeah. And we eventually said, let's write the adult version of that. And then we have a team translating that into the language of youth. And that's how it all started. Because we both felt the most important asset we have as human beings is our ability to make good, wise decisions.
[05:57.1]
Well, you know, I'm going to ask you this question about Yoda. Right. You introduce this concept in the book of your own decision advisor. Right. And I've written. I wouldn't say extensively, but I've written a lot about intuition.
[06:16.7]
This gut feeling you get, this supernatural, power I'm going to call it, that we all have, we just have to be discerning when we listen to it. We have to understand that, that that's helping us make a decision. Now, that's from my own viewpoint here.
[06:33.0]
Maybe not your viewpoint, but when I hear people like, you know, in the past, Bill, Gates and, you know, all of these famous people saying, hey, I used my intuition to make many of my business decisions.
[06:49.7]
I listened to what I was hearing. Your book introduces this. Your own decision advisor. Can you explain the Yoda and why you choose this particular framework for helping people make better decisions? Because I intuitively have made a lot of decisions based on my feeling.
[07:09.2]
So it's another great question, Greg. You know, we make somewhere around 35,000 decisions a day. We make, an enormous number of decisions. 245,000 per week and 12 million a year.
[07:27.3]
And if you were to ask people, well, what were you thinking when you made those, when you made, your decisions and when you made mistakes, what was the process you went through? Most people have very little understanding of how decisions are made.
[07:46.6]
And what is the process by which we can make sure we make better decisions? We all have an internal advisor that is actually vetting these decisions. Most of those 35,000 a day are made unconsciously.
[08:03.5]
They're habitual. You just make them. But there are opportunities where you reflect and pause and say, maybe I shouldn't do this reflexively. This is a decision I should make intentionally.
[08:21.1]
And that is when this, what we call your own decision advisor Yoda, needs to be called forth. This is not the Yoda of Star wars, but there are some similarities. This is your repository of wisdom that can be called forth in making very important and maybe consequential decisions.
[08:45.7]
And you just referenced it. There are several sources of wisdom. We'll go through some of those, but I'll just mention one of, or just a couple of them. One is your head, your logic, analytical side. Another is your intuitive side, your gut.
[09:04.5]
Another is really, your emotions, and they're different. The difference between your instinct or emotional side. Those are two separate sources of information. And, we have, multiple sources of wisdom, but we have to really pave those neurological paths that they're quickly accessible, in decision making for us, when we say, what does your Yoda say?
[09:38.7]
We want to make sure you understand that everyone has a decision advisor that's making some kind of recommendation. And it may be horrific or it could Be really wise and discerning. It's true.
[09:54.5]
And I think what's important for people to understand. With your background in health and human performance, you state in the first chapter of this book that health ignites wisdom and decision making. Now, a lot of people would be like, well, does my health really have anything to do with my decision making?
[10:11.8]
Could you elaborate on how the physical, emotional, mental, and spiritual health impacts our ability to make good choices? Obviously, I get the fact, hey, if somebody drinks excessive alcohol, they're going to make stupid decisions. Most cases.
[10:27.2]
Right? And you of all people would understand this. Eating is another one. It's like, hey, what are the number one leading causes of death? Smoking, overeating. Right. And making bad decisions when you're drinking over drinking alcohol because you either kill yourself or kill somebody else in the process.
[10:49.3]
I mean, those to me, are just kind of stupid decisions. And they make sense when it comes to health and decision making. But explain further. So it's really kind of embarrassing. But, you know, I'm a data guy. We had very large numbers, very large data sets with that many people coming through the institute and tracking them.
[11:11.6]
We were in the performance business. Everyone came to us. Our mission was to help teams and individuals perform to the highest level possible in high stress, extreme environments, but with one caveat, without compromising their health or their happiness.
[11:28.6]
Because we learned that there are lots of ways you can push someone to the absolute limits and then exceed those. And they might do well for a while, but there are consequences. And when we looked at all the data, we found that ultimately, what we did for all these people and help them do things they have never done before, Olympic champions and so forth, all we did was get them healthier.
[11:54.5]
And health is physical, emotional, mental, and it's actually spiritual. Yes. We realized we were in the health business, and Johnson Johnson was in the health business and wanted to really understand how to get into the performance business with all their surgeons and nurses, pharmacists and so forth.
[12:16.1]
And so we realized that the whole essence of taking someone to the next level is really getting them healthier in every dimension possible. And, in the physical realm, just getting people to eat better, to have more oxygen, transfer better fitness, more sleep, if we just raise the bar there, or emotionally helping people to be more optimistic, more positive, to summon those emotions that really inspire them, and then to help them to get the stories right that they're telling themselves based in reality, that are inspirational and to really understand how to use this brilliant analytical mind that they have to make Better decisions.
[13:02.9]
And then if we can improve their mental health, we're going to improve their physical health and so forth and improve their decision making. And then the spiritual dimension proved to be the most important, which is the domain of character and purpose, values and beliefs.
[13:19.8]
We spend a lot of time helping people raised the bar there and automatically they started making better decisions. Yeah, it's it's fascinating to me what you just said and I, and not only is it fascinating, it's so true.
[13:37.7]
I think of like the noetic sciences, we, we speak a lot about functional medicine. Doctors, people that are practicing in this way and are changing the outcomes of people's lives as a result of looking at the psychology, the spiritual, the mental, the physical, the emotional well being of an individual.
[14:02.8]
And I have a doctor that was on recently and he's become a very good friend. He lives close by. His book is called Healing Beyond Pills and Potions. And his theory though, and you would really resonate with this was, and this is a great one, it's how that physician at J and J or wherever it is, or the people that are out there treating people actually communicate with the patient when there's a diagnosis that if they said to you, hey Jim, guess what, you've got pancreatic cancer.
[14:40.1]
But the reality is you have an X chance of survival versus saying oh she gym, you got pancreatic cancer, just go home and forget it. You know, you're, you're doing whatever the, the, the impact that the way doctors communicate to our subconscious and what's going on in our mind has a huge effect.
[15:02.1]
And I totally believe that. And you mentioned that we are feeling creatures that think, not thinking creatures that feel. That's why I told that story. How does this perspective change how we approach important decisions?
[15:18.9]
Because the decision you make to either get treatment for cancer or not get treatment is actually predicated upon the advisors around you as well. So the, the most primitive part of our, you know, kind of repository of wisdom, one that's been around the longest is the emotional side.
[15:41.4]
And this upgrade, this prefrontal cortex executive function is kind of new on the evolutionary stage. We're trying to modulate this powerful engine of emotion, the amygdala, all these subcortical regions of the brain, we're trying to figure out how to control that better, with this really incredible ability to rise above for abstract thinking, for complicated language and for reasoning.
[16:16.4]
And so it's really interesting that emotions actually dominate in most people's lives. I mean, I had a perfect example of this recently. I've had a car that I've, kind of had my eye on for a very long time.
[16:31.4]
And I happened to go into a dealership and the exact car that I had always been thinking I would want, I'm a car guy. And it was absolutely the, every. Every single. The color, I mean, absolutely everything.
[16:47.5]
And I'm like, oh, my goodness, how could that possibly be? Then I found myself going, well, you have to buy that. So I went home and I started to think about, well, let's just go through this process. What should I do about this car?
[17:03.5]
This is, I'm being pulled to buy that car instantly. I really want to buy it in me. I can afford the car, no problem.
[17:13.5]
But should I buy this car? So I went through the whole thing and I began to realize on a logical perspective, it's a convertible. I only going to drive it because I'm in Colorado a few months out of the year.
[17:29.3]
And I started figuring out all the costs involved with insurance. And I figured out what it would cost if I sold the car in two or three years. Then I realized, wait a minute, think of all the things I could do with that excess money to help other people.
[17:45.5]
And I love to help wounded warriors and do all kinds of things. I give a lot of money away. And I thought this would be the dumbest thing possible. It doesn't really make sense from my values perspective, from a logical perspective. And so I said no in my mind.
[18:02.1]
And then every single moment, this powerful wave of emotion comes up and says, go buy that car. Yeah. And I go, no. So then I made all these notes and I had to go back and read my notes over and over again or I wanted to go buy that bloody car.
[18:20.1]
I was flooded with the emotion. And that's how powerful emotion can be. That is an amazing story because I've been there before and I understand exactly what you're going through. I've. I wouldn't call myself a car guy, but I've certainly had plenty of cars in my day, and some of them I wished I hadn't bought.
[18:42.1]
And again, it's not in alignment with your value, so I appreciate you not buying it and taking that money and giving it to charity or whatever else you did with it. On the other hand, the emotion is telling you, well, what about all the summer days in Colorado where you could drive around so fast in that car?
[19:01.0]
Well, you know, you're crazy creature. We're a Crazy species we are. So your book discusses two versions of the inner voice. Inner voice, you say one untrained, and the inner voice number two that's trained. What are the key differences and why is transforming from one to the other so crucial?
[19:21.2]
Because this is. When I talk about intuition, I refer to it as the inner voice. It literally, to me is a spiritual element. It's like a sixth sense, that. That we have or seventh, what depends on where you look at it.
[19:37.0]
But, I think there, you know, look at it, you've studied all this. There's the superconscious, there's the conscious. There's the subconscious. And at a certain level, this inner voice to me is coming from the superconscious.
[19:55.9]
Yeah. So I have a little, little different take on it, but it's definitely consistent with what you're saying, Greg. We've done a lot of intensive study on the role that this inner narrative plays in people's lives. That narrative starts to form in a very primitive way.
[20:16.2]
By the age of five, that voice actually is forming. It's the accumulation of all the voices that have been resonating through this auditory cortex of your brain. All the people that speak to you, Your mother, your father, relatives, siblings, parents, coaches, teachers.
[20:37.6]
All these different auditory inputs begin to form, some semblance of an inner voice. And then if people begin to tune into it, they begin to realize that inner voice is running the show.
[20:53.9]
So when I was thinking about that car situation, I was constantly challenging my inner voice because a lot of the information was coming. I, want that and on and on, but my inner voice was trying to make the best decision. So, what, what we've learned is that the, the voice that you come into the world with, if you had great parents and great coaches and great teachers, your inner voice probably is, is quite, effective.
[21:24.7]
It's probably very well trained in an. Almost an automatic way. And then we call that inner voice one where it's untrained. And it may be fantastic as an advisor, as a Yoda for you, or it may have many, many flaws, lots of issues that, compromise your ability to make good decisions.
[21:47.3]
And so we have a whole training system where you clean that up, where you try to make that inner voice one something that is really an extraordinary advisor in your life, the very best advisor you could have, and you are proud of the decisions that you've made.
[22:05.8]
And that is training. So we have to train every day, and we do that through journaling. Most of that training is done through journaling about, how you want your private voice to speak to you in situations that are challenging.
[22:22.1]
And then we equip that private voice, that inner voice, with all the things that will be necessary for you to really vet that situation carefully and appropriately. We'll probably go through a number of these.
[22:37.4]
The lenses that we try to have people go through to make sure that there is something you're referencing that you have confidence will take you to the right decision. Yoda, your own decision advisor is actually really well equipped to transcend any problem or chaos or, incoming data that is really not in keeping with who you really want to be as a human being.
[23:09.5]
Well, you spoke about, let's, let's put two questions together in one. One is this command center and contaminated data? You could speak about that and also you just referenced it. This fascinating element in the book about seven limit limit lenses and vetting process for making important decisions.
[23:33.7]
Could you walk us through the lenses and perhaps give an example of how someone could apply them to a difficult choice? Now, in your case, it was a car. Okay. It was a difficult choice because your emotions were pulling on you.
[23:51.5]
Right. I mean, there's people under much more stress than buying a car about making a decision which, which are, you know, I, I would say, you know, like, hey, I had a, in your case, you trained, Navy, SEALs, right? Imagine the stressful decisions they've got to make.
[24:10.9]
So put a story to it as well, because people relate to stories. So, yeah, there's, there's a really an interesting, Everyone will relate to this. I think, you know, you have the ability, we all have the ability to listen but tune people out.
[24:31.3]
Your parents talk to you and you say, yeah, yeah, yeah, but nothing really gets through. It doesn't get through to what I would call your inner command center, where it really does have an impact on the way in which you're thinking, on decisions that you're making.
[24:49.0]
You have the ability to block out anything and everything you want. And a lot of times the people you should be listening to, you just kind of shut out. You Screen them out. And, it's unfortunate. And then sometimes you let people in that should not have gotten in and have really changed your thinking and your storytelling and have altered your Yoda in a way that really compromises what you are able to, do in terms of great decision making.
[25:21.1]
And so part of what is the process of really getting this right is who should you let in and who should you really make sure that you're protecting. Because once they're in that command center, they're going to have influence on you and they will influence your ability to make decisions.
[25:39.9]
That's your first decision, Jim, is who you let in. That's exactly right. Is who should you be listening to? And we really, really have recommendation to others that, you get an advisory board that you listen to.
[25:55.9]
Who are the people that you really should trust, have your best interests at heart, and who are the people that probably, if you really bet your life on it, you really wouldn't want them in the inner part of the most sacred space in your head, to, influence the way in which you run your life, make decisions, navigate in life.
[26:18.1]
And once people get clear on that, they can hold out, they can be nice, they can smile. But everyone wants to get in that command center. Every commercial on television, I want to have access. In this podcast, you want to have access, religious leaders of all kinds, teachers, coaches, everyone wants to have access because that means they can have influence and control.
[26:46.5]
And you actually have the ability, if you want to, after a certain age, decide who you want in and who you want out. And then the second part of your question is about these lenses. It's so interesting how the decision actually changes in front of you as you kind of hold up a lens and look at the decision, in several different ways.
[27:11.8]
The first is we all have this space we call our best self, where we are clearly at our best, where we really are most proud of who we are. And you run the decision through that lens and where does it take you? Another one is we have who are you at your very best morally?
[27:29.3]
The way you treat other people, the way you, interact with others, integrity, honesty, maybe it won't directly relate to this decision, but if you hold that lens up, and look at the decision through that, you won't make a big mistake.
[27:45.8]
In all probability, another one that's a very powerful one. It's, I call your life purpose. Why the heck are you here? What's your purpose for being here on planet Earth? Why were you born when you have that down on paper and you've really integrated that into your thinking, make that lens very, very, crystal clear in this decision making process and see if that has any effect on the decision.
[28:13.7]
And then there is this thing we call your tombstone legacy. What do you want on your tombstone? If, if this represented the ultimate life of success for you, and how does that resonate? How does that resonate with the decision that you're about to make, will it influence it in any way?
[28:33.5]
Or is it just something that's kind of, not necessarily relevant to that lens? And then I ask people as another lens to look at your most important core values and beliefs. When I looked at that car.
[28:49.5]
Decision. And even if it's a decision to make to have a divorce and you have to consider your children, should we take out that loan? Should I call them up and just rip them for what they've done? If you go through these lenses, all of a sudden it kind of changes color.
[29:06.7]
You begin to see it in a little different way. And then we have something we call your personal credo, which is, this is how I operate. This is something that I really, I stand behind this. Every great organization, whether it's the Seals or the West Point or anything else, they have a credo.
[29:25.9]
And this is the way in which you expect yourself to perform. And is this in any way going to shed light on the decision you make? And then the ultimate mission in your life is what. How are you going to define an ultimate life of success?
[29:42.6]
So many of these may not relate directly to that decision, but it will help you to establish a foundation. This is what you want your Yoda to reference, because these are the real reference points that'll keep you from making decisions that might be really tragic.
[30:00.7]
To take drugs, to drive and drink, to, do things that when you look back in hindsight, you just wish you had never made that first decision. And that's what we're trying to help, particularly young people, develop a real sense of how to do this and how to do it in a way that's, you know, they can repeat it over and over in their life until they really get good at it.
[30:27.4]
You gave people a very large smorgasbord there of things to think about right now. I get it. And I think in, in looking at it, decisions versus our ability for having choices.
[30:46.3]
And the, the reality is we are always given a plethora of choices. It's like, hey, the, it comes in six different colors. It's got this, this, this and this and this. And you knew exactly what you wanted when you put the lenses on, right?
[31:01.8]
What you're actually doing is, aren't you filtering down the choices that you could make in this decision? Because, you know, the reality is, it's like, hey, I, I can go to AI today and I can say, I have to make this decision.
[31:18.0]
Can you give me a pathway toward a better decision making process? And believe it or not, it has enough data in it that actually can start to kind of think a little bit for you. And it does a very good job in a lot of cases. Do you have any kind of comment about that?
[31:35.4]
Because you speak in chapter 12 on managing emotional decisions and what you're trying to do is I wouldn't say remove the emotion from the decision, but when you're given a lot of choices. I remember interviewing professor who was blind and she did all these studies on choices.
[31:56.2]
You know, like when you go down that, I know this sounds silly to you, but you go down the jelly aisle in the store and you see six different choices of jellies and jams and preserves. And she said obviously when you're given less choices the decision is easier.
[32:12.2]
I mean anybody could logically could think of that. But, but today there's this plethora of choices. I mean it's everywhere. There's six different of that and seven different of this. And, and even when it comes to business, it's like there's this deal, there's that deal, there's this deal.
[32:29.9]
How would you give the people who just saw heard your whole smorgers Borg, try and assimilate that into some way to make better choices than a decision to act upon the choice they made. So you raise a number of really good points, Greg.
[32:49.3]
So again we make 35, roughly 35,000 decisions a day. Now a lot of those decisions are very automatic. What, what have you bought in the past that you've been happy with? You go buy on the, that particular aisle in the grocery store and you just instantly go get it.
[33:07.5]
That was a choice, but it was automated. Most of the choices you make are automated based on your experience. But what's important is that you recognize that there are also really critical points that really can change the trajectory of your life or others lives with the decision.
[33:28.6]
And so you want to stop and not use total reflection, I mean reflective, response and automatic response. You really want to say wait a minute, this is something I need to think about. I want to take a little bit of time, maybe 24 hours and put it through a lens or a variety of lenses to make sure that I'm doing the right thing here.
[33:50.8]
And then you actually have some preferences that you have decided. If you're trying to buy healthy food for your family, you have a lens already for that. That certain things you're not going to bring home because you care about the health of your children or your spouse or family or partners and so forth.
[34:09.4]
And so there are a number of issues that have to be brought. But most importantly, you want to understand there are decisions that are really important. And then a lot of those decisions that we have to make every day should be made automatically.
[34:25.4]
And as we experience this worked out, I didn't like the taste of that one or the way in which I interacted with some people. It really upset them. I wasn't that, empathetic. I really wasn't that understanding. I treated them badly.
[34:41.7]
I crossed the line in terms of ethics. And you begin to recalibrate. Wait a minute. That's not who I want to be. If I get that opportunity again, I'm going to make a different choice. But, a, choice is a decision, and Yoda is in the center of that.
[34:59.6]
And there is an, emotional input, there's an input intuition, there's a spiritual input, and there's a logical analytical input. And we want to bring to bear on any important decisions all those assets that are really critical to getting it right.
[35:18.1]
I think somebody once told me, is it a need or a want? And the reality is, a lot of times it's a want, it's not a need, and it's an emotional decision because it was a want. It wasn't. It wasn't a need.
[35:34.0]
There. There was absolutely no need to have a new sports car with a. Whatever thing in it. I didn't really need that. And I think when you really kind of take decision making down, it's what you tell yourself. And you. You emphasize the importance of storytelling and decision making.
[35:51.4]
You know, you can tell yourself a story all day long about an item that you saw on Amazon, and you're like, oh, boy, you know, I. I need to have that. Do you really need to have that? So how do these stories we tell ourselves shape our choices?
[36:07.4]
And how can we consciously craft better narratives? Because it's the, I'm not going to call. It's this selft talk that's going on inside that's honestly saying, hey, you need this because it's going to make you feel a lot better.
[36:25.8]
Or, you know, it's there. People talk about negative self talk. This isn't the negative self talk. This is the self talk that's telling you you need it because it's going to make you feel better. You need it because it's going to make you a better person.
[36:41.3]
Whatever. And the question I have is, if I underline the word need, do I really need it? Yeah, exactly. Sometimes it's okay if you want It, Yeah, yeah, I get it. Just fulfilled that want. I mean that.
[36:56.4]
But then you also have to look at what else are you sacrificing if you do that, Are there short term or long term consequences for con constantly fulfilling that want? That's the issue. Right. And I think it's important that you reframe the stories.
[37:13.7]
I mean, I, I think that. And you being a performance psychologist, you certainly recognize this. I, I remember interviewing Byron, Katie a long time ago, and she used to say, is it true?
[37:28.8]
Is it really true? Like the story that you made up about whatever it is that you thought somebody did to you or you needed or whatever it might be. It's like, I don't know if people really question if it's true or not. They just made up the story. So then they made a decision, they went and did something.
[37:44.9]
Right. So, I would just say that we are storytellers first and foremost. That's how we, that's how we create our reality. We don't have direct contact with the real world.
[38:00.4]
We have all this data streaming in through our auditory senses, our visual senses, the, the five sensory portals, and then our brain has to process that, but it's not really in contact with the real world.
[38:16.8]
It's in contact with the data streaming in from our environment. What's unfortunate about our brains, there's a preference given to data if they're going to bring it in and make it part of our reality. A, preference is given to things that are already in there, and it's consistent, whatever it is, with what you already believe.
[38:39.0]
So if you have been, you know, raised in a certain environment or culture to believe this is right or wrong, and you get information incoming that doesn't really align with that, you just purge it. You just don't let it come in.
[38:54.8]
But we have to be so diligent in trying to get our stories straight because stories represent our reality. That's if we don't make them up. Thinking that, you know, we've got a false sense of reality, or this is, this is what we believe is true and you're 100% right, we can be absolutely wrong in the stories that we have created around certain people, certain things, certain happenings, and those will clearly impact the decisions we make, how we feel, our logic train, even our, sense of right and wrong, our spiritual dimension.
[39:35.1]
And it all starts with flawed stories that got kind of locked into our brains and now they're very difficult to get out. And in fact, you may die with those flawed feelings. Even though you're getting contradictory evidence all the time, that is one of the great vulnerabilities we have as a human species.
[39:56.3]
Well, one of the things that comes up for me in storytelling or, or looking at decisions and choices was I, I almost like imagine in my head if there was a, somebody took a picture of me, but I was standing straight right in front of the picture, I wouldn't see it very well because I don't have perspective.
[40:15.1]
I've got to step back from the picture. Right. If it was a mural of me, right. And I need to actually step back. I need to step back quite a bit to get a new perspective. Because if I'm so close, everything is fuzzy.
[40:31.3]
Right. And so I think sometimes making decisions is about taking that step back and looking at your perspective about how you're seeing whatever it is that you're looking at. Right. And I sometimes think we don't step back enough.
[40:50.0]
You're 100% right. Perspective is everything. And sometimes it's very difficult to get perspective or to have people start looking at this from a different perspective because they believe their story is right. Even though you give them show, them a different perspective, it's contrary to what they've come to believe maybe for years and years.
[41:10.6]
But you're 100% right. If we can get a new perspective, we can rearrange the furniture between their ears and that story begins to change almost instantaneously. That's like the lenses, but the perspective is, you know, the same way you'd put on the lens.
[41:27.9]
Now you say in, kind of it's one of the later chapters in the book. But you talk about this Goldman dilemma example in chapter 18. And it's particularly striking the idea that many athletes would take a pill that guarantees success but shortens their life.
[41:49.4]
That's the question. Would they. What does this reveal about human decision making, that we all should be wary of? You know, I mean, look, you're the performance psychologist. How many people are going to take a pill that says, it guarantees my success but it shortens my life?
[42:11.0]
Yeah. I mean, our brains were very fragile, our sense of right and wrong. And if you lived, in this culture that we all live in, certainly here in America, that winning is the, is the ultimate standard of a successful life.
[42:27.4]
And parents buy into that. That's their measure of success as parents or how high achieving are their children. And then, you are given a very simple test, which Goldman gave 10 consecutive years, where first of all, you can take A pill that you will never, ever get caught.
[42:47.9]
But it's illegal, it's cheating, but it will enable you to fulfill all of your Olympic or all of your athletic dreams. You'll become a superstar. The only downside is that you will die from the pill in five years. Over 50% of all the people who are, you know, sampled, and these were all elite athletes, over 50% of them said they would take that deal.
[43:16.6]
And what that means is the society's conditioning that we are so much a function of the culture we were raised in. And that's why parents have to be very careful about the cultural influences of where things are moving, in terms of the right, what is right, what is wrong?
[43:38.2]
There's a very fluid sense of morality based on what these cultural norms have been, and what is right and wrong in terms of this particular situation. For me, the biggest issue, and this is one of the big things we're trying to do with the Youth Performance Institute.
[43:56.7]
No one teaches decision making. No one teaches at school and elementary school and high school and graduate school, even in doctoral programs. Very little attention because no one really knows that much about where is it that, the decision making process originates in the brain and how it flows.
[44:17.8]
We did a lot of work with, neuroscience, trying to understand the process. But the more you can access all the regions of the brain that have built in intelligence, your Yoda will do better. From the earliest stages and ages of, of developing, boys and girls, help them understand decision making.
[44:43.8]
It is a learned skill, and parents need to teach their kids. Coaches need to give people choices, hold them accountable for their choices, and allow them to learn. We don't have any formal classes that I'm aware of that actually go around this entire circle of decision making and understanding how this is a trained response and getting it right from the earliest stages, whether it's a crying baby at a restaurant all the way through to making decisions in the later part of your life about what should I spend my money on?
[45:24.6]
Healthcare? What are the things that actually will make me, fulfilled as a human being at the end of my life? These are all critical decisions that actually started in the very earliest stages of, decision making, even in infancy and early childhood.
[45:46.4]
I'd like to add to that just for a second before we give you this last question here to help round out the book and for my listeners, we'll have a link to Wise decisions, the book. Dr. Jim Lahore and Sheila Olson. You know, my personal perspective now at someone who's 70 years old, going to be 71 is the decisions I made that resulted in what I'm going to call learning lessons, not failures.
[46:20.3]
Learning lessons. They're okay because they've helped to shape the new decisions that I might make about things. And I want to tell people I don't, don't want them to be afraid about making a decision if it ultimately ended up in some kind of learning lesson.
[46:40.8]
Because that is the way the mind sometimes get programmed. But if you can have somebody as wise as Jim here provide you with techniques, please go out and get the book. Because some of those lessons can be quite painful.
[46:56.5]
And if you can circumvent and rewire your brain without making those painful decisions, I would say please do it. Sometimes it's going to work, sometimes it's not. And that leads me to this question, looking ahead, where do you see the science of decision making headed and are there emerging research areas that might further transform how we understand wise choices?
[47:25.9]
Again, another great question. It's so interesting. We've learned clearly that decision making has to be practiced and taught. Everything that happens, that's a crisis or a storm or kind of, an opportunity for intentional decision making practice.
[47:49.6]
This happens multiple times during the day. And for me, that car was an opportunity for me to sharpen my decision making. That was a meta moment for me to test my decision making ability.
[48:05.4]
And I'm always, every time there's a crisis, a person that has, really gotten a very, very dire diagnostic, kind of evaluation from a physician or something, everything, a traffic jam, anything that's going on that kind of pushes you out of your normal convenient comfort zone can, be a meta moment to practice a great decision.
[48:35.4]
An intentional decision I'm intending, I'm going to stay calm and relaxed. I'm going to use this. I'm not going to have a lot of stress overwhelming me here because of all this traffic. I'll make a call ahead. I'm going to relax. And so I intentionally turn the situation around, which could be very, very, you know, upsetting and irritating and kind of ruin the rest of my day because I'm going to be an hour late in traffic or more at Newark Airport or wherever.
[49:09.1]
You actually convert that into a meta moment to help you make a decision that keeps you more aligned with who you want to be. And it becomes a teachable moment for others as well as they watch you do this. Probably the biggest areas, and you said it in the beginning, the decision making is holistic.
[49:28.9]
It involves the whole person. It's not just following your emotions or your logical analytical thinking. It's not just trusting your gut, it's not just looking at certain values and beliefs, that are important to you, but it really is a process of taking note of all of those and then making a decision after you have properly done it.
[49:57.2]
And then the most important part after that is to act on that decision. There is the decision making process that's separate from actually following through on the decision. And sometimes that takes more courage and more of a sense of commitment than actually we can make the decision but then we just simply don't do it.
[50:19.2]
But we knew that was the right thing to do. And both of those are critical to, and becoming an extraordinary person of high character and high performance, particularly with children. Well I think your emphasis on starting people young is very important.
[50:39.0]
I'd love to see the. I know you guys were saying you were working on a workbook or something you could provide to children in there. And I want to direct all the listeners. Number one, if you're going to make a decision about a book, decide to get this one.
[50:57.7]
Wise decisions. And the reason is, is that if you're making 35,000 decisions a day and even two or three of them are important, having the Yoda, understanding how the Yoda works, understanding how your system is wired and fires is so important because it, how your emotions and the spiritual side and the emotional side and the health side, it's all going to make a difference.
[51:26.6]
And from somebody like yourself, Jim and I so appreciate you who's coached, high performance athletes and people who are sitting in high positions inside of companies making very important decisions every day. Obviously you wouldn't be here today if some of the decisions you made were incorrect.
[51:48.0]
So again for my listeners, go get this. To learn more about Jim himself, the how many books is it now? Is it 30? I don't know how many? Oh no, no, God forbid. It's 19. 19.
[52:03.4]
Okay, just go to Jim Hyphen l o e h r dot com. That's jiM-L-O e h r dot com there you can learn more about him, the books, the concepts, the tools. He has a plethora of, of information up there that you can rely on.
[52:25.8]
He also is there and we're going to have him on, on another podcast about his book called Sapiens Reinvented. He said that was one of the toughest books that he ever wrote. And so I want to thank you Jim for being on the podcast, for sharing your, knowledge and expertise and your wisdom, about this, it really was important.
[52:50.5]
Thank you so much. Well, thank you, Greg, for having me again on your podcast. You do an amazing job. The thing that I most appreciate is that you really, you're very thorough. You went through every part of the book, all your questions are relevant.
[53:06.5]
You understand the issues, that for me, makes the interaction between me and a host so much more meaningful because you've actually done your homework and, you're very thorough, in what you do, and, you really care about your ability to connect meaningfully with your listening, with listeners, with those that you represent.
[53:30.9]
So thank you for the opportunity, and I hope we created some value today. And, I wish you very best, Greg. You certainly did, because you helped me think about the way I'm making decisions. And I think if that helps one other person or ten or a thousand other people who listen to this show or thousands who listen to this show, more power to them.
[53:54.0]
So thanks for you being on the show and for you spending your time with us today. Thanks, Jim. Thanks for having me.
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Inside Personal Growth with Greg Voisen · Podcast 1230: Dr. Rick Stevenson Reveals How to Be a Personal Story Mentor – and Why It Will Change Your LifeWhat if the most powerful tool for healing, connection, and legacy was something you already owned—but rarely used? That’s the question Dr. Rick Stevenson invites us to explore in his compelling new book, How to Be a Personal Story Mentor: Helping People Connect the Dots of Their Lives Using the StoryQ Method.In our latest Inside Personal Growth episode, we welcome Dr. Stevenson back to the show to dive into the life-changing insights behind his work with thousands of young people and adults across the globe. As a filmmaker, author, and founder of the 5000 Days Project, Rick has spent over two decades listening to people’s stories—and what he’s discovered could change the way you see your own life.
The StoryQ Method: Turning Reflection into RevelationAt the heart of Rick’s work is the StoryQ Method, a structured yet deeply human approach to unlocking emotional intelligence through storytelling. Unlike traditional therapy or coaching, StoryQ taps into the one thing we all carry—our own lived experience.
Through verbal journaling and guided self-reflection, Rick helps people identify turning points, process unresolved emotions, and rewrite narratives that no longer serve them. The goal? To become a mentor of your own story, gaining clarity and resilience as you reframe the events that shaped you.
“You own nothing more valuable than your own story,” Rick reminds us—and that realization alone can be transformative.
Healing by Naming: The Emotional Immune SystemOne of the most compelling themes in this episode is the idea that our stories hold the key to building an emotional immune system. By naming our pain, grief, or confusion—especially in a safe, structured space—we gain power over it. In one powerful example, Rick shares the story of his young nephew who, after recounting a traumatic classroom experience multiple times, was finally able to laugh about it. That moment of release, Rick explains, is what healing looks like.
Whether it’s heartbreak, loss, failure, or identity struggles, our unspoken stories can often act like emotional weights. Storytelling, in this method, becomes an act of liberation—a gentle but profound confrontation with the self.
Your Story Is Your LegacyIn an age where attention spans are short and distractions are constant, Rick’s work is a call to slow down and reflect on what really matters. Stories aren’t just how we process life—they’re also how we pass wisdom forward.
Through his personal documentary offerings and mentoring, Rick helps individuals create legacy films—raw, beautiful testaments to the lives they’ve lived. These aren’t vanity projects; they’re gifts to families, friends, and future generations.
And you don’t need to be famous or wealthy to tell a meaningful story. As Rick says:
“The greatest struggle with being human is feeling invisible. When someone listens—truly listens—it makes you visible again.”
Begin Your JourneyIf you’ve ever wondered how to make sense of your past, connect more deeply with yourself or others, or leave something of meaning behind, Rick’s book is an excellent place to start.
Grab your copy of How to Be a Personal Story Mentor and begin the journey of rediscovering your story—not just for yourself, but for everyone your life has touched.
Learn More About Dr. Rick Stevenson Website: rickstevenson.com
Book: Buy on Amazon
Instagram: @drrickstevenson
Facebook: Dr. Rick Stevenson
LinkedIn: Dr. Rick Stevenson
You may also refer to the transcripts below for the full transcription (not edited) of the interview.
Interview Transcipt -Not EditedEmailDownloadNew Tab[00:01.9]
Well, welcome back to Inside Personal Growth. This is Greg Voisen and the host of Inside Personal Growth. And joining us from the Seattle area is Dr. Rick Stevenson. And Rick had been on a show many moons ago with us.
[00:18.6]
Actually it was podcast 793, for a book called 21 things you forgot about being a kid. And I'm going to direct people to go there. Rick Caddadio, how are you doing? I, am grateful to be here.
[00:37.8]
I am grateful that you're here because my listeners are in for a treat. It's been, three or four hundred podcasts ago that you were on the show and things have just gotten better and better. So I'm going to actually let the listeners know a tad about you.
[00:55.3]
And you want to hold up the book that we're going to be talking about. I know you had it sitting right next to you. Oh, Greg, I happen just to have a copy. There you go. How to be a personal story mentor is that's the book we're going to talk about. Well, it's been three or 400 interview.
[01:12.4]
I need to write faster. Clearly. There you go. Yeah, write faster or you are a very articulate man. So you, you know how to get things out. So let me welcome you to the show. Thrilled to have you back, not only as a friend, we were just talking about some people we knew in common.
[01:32.8]
In, in for my listeners. Some of you may remember that podcast we talked about the 21 things you forgotten. You're being a kid. But today's coming back, as we said, to talk about how to be a personal story mentor. Helping people connect the dots of their lives using Story Q method.
[01:51.5]
And I think that's the important part. He's the founder of Story Q and the creator of the 5000 Days where he's interviewed over 5000 young people as they grew from children into young adults over a 14 year period.
[02:09.0]
Although this remarkable longitudinal study, Rick developed what he calls the personal story mentoring, which is this book's about, and the verbal journaling technique to help individuals unlock their emotional immune systems.
[02:25.0]
I love that we're going to get into that. Throughout his career, Rick has developed a powerful philosophy in that that is our personal stories, our most valuable assets. And boy, is that true. We were just talking about another gentleman who, directs a thing called Path north.
[02:42.4]
And his personal story is phenomenal. Through the Story Q method, he helps people discover, articulate and gain agency over their narratives. Ricks believes that by understanding and applying our stories, we can transform not only our own lives, but also positively impact the lives of others.
[03:04.7]
And in this time when personal reflection is in an all time low and social media dominates our attention, Rick offers methods of, doing this to create greater self awareness and emotional intelligence. And he, as he puts it, you own nothing more valuable than your own story.
[03:25.2]
Well, Rick, welcome back to Inside Personal Growth. Again, spending some time with us to speak about your new book, and also just really to kind of get an update about what Rick's been up to. I know you've been doing a lot of traveling, so tell me about your trip, in your.
[03:43.8]
What I would call philanthropic work and the work that you've been doing with the kids and now you're back here again. And I'd love the. I think the listeners might want to hear a little bit about that. Oh, my gosh. Well, I start out with telling you about my recent trip.
[03:59.3]
And that is, you know, I didn't know if I'd ever have a 25th wedding anniversary, just because I was a late bloomer, like age 7. I had this huge romantic life, mostly in my head.
[04:16.9]
Well, all in my head. Had these huge crushes on Jackie Kennedy and, you know, Julie Andrews. And I, I just had great. I had this great life about who I was going to marry and having kids.
[04:32.6]
And, I know where it came from. It came from the fact that my parents had this phenomenal love story. Three chance meetings set across the backdrop of World War II, or else I wouldn't be here. And, so from the early stage, I really, this was a priority.
[04:50.2]
Cut to 30 years later, I was no closer to finding that right person than I was at seven. And, I'd had a series of relationships. And finally when I thought, you know, I really need some help here.
[05:07.5]
I talked to a counselor named Donna Arnold who, had me go through those relationships. And she said, Rick, hearing about these people, they all sound amazing. And I said, they were.
[05:23.7]
I mean, they. I have good taste. And, she said, well, you know, what do they all have in common? And I said, they're women. And she looks at me deeply disappointed and says, go deeper.
[05:39.9]
I said, oh, well, I suppose me. And, she said, yeah, did you ever consider the problem might be, you know, something that was so obvious probably to everybody around me, it never even occurred to me. But it was empowering because, like, it's my problem, I could fix it.
[05:57.4]
And that's what I did. Over the next year, I put a ton of work into, you know, my IQ was reasonably high, but my EQ was on the floor. I just didn't understand. Had no perspective on my life whatsoever. I was just blindly going from one relationship to another, wondering why I wasn't meeting the right person.
[06:17.7]
Well, it's because I was. I wasn't being the right person. And, so once I realized that that was the issue, then, Then I, I really jumped into it. And I was lucky enough to meet Julie.
[06:35.1]
And Julie came prepackaged with Max and Maddie. And, then we had our birth son, Oliver. And then we adopted Leah. And suddenly, in the year 2000, 2003, I had everything I ever wanted. Awesome.
[06:51.3]
And so. And you're happy as ever, right? Well, I just celebrated my 25th anniversary. I took Julie to, London. And, yeah, it was really. So I've come off a lot of travel. This is the first sort of break I've had in quite a while because I'm one of these people who so love what I do.
[07:13.2]
Which I primarily do interviews and I run the Prodigy camp, those two things. So it's, just super fulfilling. And so this book rose out of the 5,000 days project that numbers up to 7,500 interviews across six continents now.
[07:31.4]
I'm sure it's grown since we've last talked. Obviously it's been years. Well, you know what's interesting about when you're telling that story, as I'm listening to you and I've. And I've heard it before, that you married later in life and you had two, kids that basically you became the stepfather to, that you then had a child of your own.
[07:54.4]
You know, it's all really interesting because it's on the backdrop of your parent story, which was this amazing love life. Right. And something that you had been seeking. And, you know, you described this story cue method as both a personal and collective tool for healing and discovery.
[08:14.0]
I mean, you know, unfortunately you didn't have the story cue method prior to you meeting Julie, but then you kind of found it. What was the turning point in your life that led to the creation of, like, the story Q Method? Because, you know, look, this book is about us getting our personal story out.
[08:33.7]
Right. And us being a mentor. Yes, yes.
[08:41.5]
I think it was pure survival and self interest on my part. I. Survival in that I realized I was living my life like most of us do. Like, you're standing in front of 100 foot painting of yourself and you're one foot away.
[09:01.3]
Like, what do you see? Not much not much. And so what I learned through my own, work was the importance of being able to step back and look at the grand picture. And that is sort of what's driven my work of saying why isn't everybody doing this?
[09:19.1]
This is so essential to to live a well considered life instead of just stumbling along from one thing to another, not really understanding, you know, our place in the universe. And you find your place. The, the reason I feel like I don't care how much money you have or position, the reason I feel like your story is the most valuable thing you own is like it's, it's, it's, it's your roadmap to your place in the universe.
[09:48.9]
And a lot of us stumble in finding that. We start out as kids say it goes back to a discussion I have. My grandfather, I was closest to my grandfather than anybody in the world for the first 12 years of my life, including my parents.
[10:04.1]
I was very close to my parents. But my grandfather was the guy. 8th grade education, saw his first man killed at age 11 in a bar, started smoking at 13, was a gambler. My grandfather did everything and he was this incredible colorful character.
[10:20.9]
But in the end just somebody that was this loved me so deeply and I loved him back. And I remember you know, walking, going and visiting him up at his cabin on Lake Pendrey in northern Idaho.
[10:39.3]
And one night. And I've, I've actually put this story in a film. One night, age seven, I'm walking along the, the lake and I'm wondering why the path of moonlight is following me wherever I went.
[10:56.8]
And it was a great mysterious puzzle. I back up and, and I thought what's happening here? And at seven it occurred to me the truth and that is I had to be the center of the universe. You know, that of course and subsequently was disproven moment after moment after moment.
[11:18.0]
But I, to tell my grandfather about it. And he was on the dock underneath a canopy of stars and sat me down next and put his big old crumply arm around me.
[11:34.9]
And he said, well Rick, you know, that could be true. You could be the center of the universe. But more likely you are the key piece in a puzzle that has billions of key pieces that goes to make up this universe of ours.
[11:50.4]
And your job is to find your place in the puzzle. So well put. And so you stumble through as a kid, like you do any big puzzle, like well, maybe we'll put it here or here, here. You know, that's pure luck. And that seldom Works.
[12:05.6]
And then as a adult you start to, or as a teen you start to try different things and start to find your people or your area or your colors. And you know, that helps. And then most of us at some point go, aha.
[12:21.0]
We're holding our peace. And we see the hole and we go, got it? And you've got to put it in the hole. And it doesn't quite fit. And then it's like cheap puzzle, you know. But no, you really still, still found the place. And this is why, like, we suffer from, you know, being just out of alignment with ourselves because we just don't have the self knowledge.
[12:45.4]
And so we're like Sisyphus, like pushing the rock up the hill. We're like running the race of life with our tennis shoes tied together. And that's why we get fatigued, that's why we get sick. And that creates stress and stress creates cortisol, which pours on our immune system which makes us more sick.
[13:07.3]
And it all adds up to the fact most of our problems is we haven't quite found our place. And I found the way to find your place is through understanding your story. It creates your roadmap to your place in universe, that, place that you care about most.
[13:24.4]
What do you, what do you think as somebody who's interviewed thousands of people at this point, including, you know, as you said, your 5,000 kids, which is now 7,500. What do you think the, the bigger blocks are for people?
[13:39.5]
Because look, the book is your personal story mentor. But what do you think the blocks are? Because as you were speaking, I was reflecting on all the characters and relatives that have been in my life. Right. And their stories and what I learned from them.
[13:56.1]
And you know, I was thinking about my uncle. It was really weird. We were talking about my, my father's brother and then my father whose stories really never got told, like how you try and do it, or through some relative.
[14:11.9]
Who's to say, hey, I want to leave this legacy or I want to leave this work of art so that people could appreciate it. How do you make all that kind of come together, through your organization?
[14:27.1]
I mean, you've got a beautiful website and I'm just going to tell my listeners, go to rick s-t v e n s o n dot com. There you'll learn about his projects, the books, the speaking. He also has another website. What's that website, that you want?
[14:44.5]
Storyq.com so the story, the letter Q. Right. So that's the other one. But if you want to learn about Rick and his philosophy and his, you know, as a cinematographer and what he's done to do this. But let's go back to my question.
[15:01.0]
I think that many of us go through life and we have amnesia around these stories. It's almost like we forget them. Right. How do you help people, create self awareness and awareness of how to bring that story to light and to do it effectively through your cinematography so that they then can share that with, generations to come?
[15:31.7]
I think the primary block people have, there's a series of them, primary block is that most people feel like my story is not significant. Right. And which is nonsense. I, mean year we're born, we immediately start taking, we take food, we take air, we take space.
[15:56.2]
What do we leave for this privilege of living? I would say the only thing we really can leave is our story. And yet 99.29% of us take it to our grave. And if you think of the amount of wisdom you gather during your life, I don't care who you are unless you're completely mindless, you have something valuable to share.
[16:24.1]
You have wisdom which you try to impart to your kids, which they don't seem to want to know at times, Believe me, they're soaking it in. So keep saying it. And, but I think it's first and foremost people, they feel like it's not my story is not significant, it's not important enough.
[16:46.8]
And that's not up to them to determine. It is important. It's a you, you've been given this gift of life. You need to leave your wisdom for humanity. That is vital. In fact, I subscribe to the, Tolkien view of humankind.
[17:03.9]
In one of his lesser works, he viewed all of humankind as this great choir that only reaches sonic perfection when every voice can be heard. That's, that's so, so profound.
[17:21.5]
Right. One of the things that you've said, Rick, is that you reframe the interview. And I think this is important for my listeners to hear as a sacred space of trust and discuss a discovery.
[17:37.3]
And you say it's very different from a job or a journalistic interview. Now you could kind of say, well, the job as a podcaster here is to get out of you what's in your book. And I'm more of a journalistic interview. I try to create a sacred space all the time to allow people to blossom.
[17:59.3]
And I think at times I do a pretty good job of it. At other times, I, think there is Time gets you. Just time. You know, how much time do I really have to sit here and actually speak with Rick to get the true story?
[18:17.8]
So how can anyone become a better listener using this kind of mindset? Because I'm always trying to become a better listener. Well, I think, I think you're closer to the type of interview that I do than the journalist or the job interviewer.
[18:41.4]
Because you really aren't out to get people. You only feature work you think is worth featuring. So you already come with your brand of, This is worth talking about where a journalist may be after other.
[19:00.7]
Other things. A story. Well, when I say a story, depending on the accra lies everything. Trying to find out. Well, I mean, in our current environment, journalists are.
[19:18.6]
That's not everybody. There's some great journalists out there. But our current journal, the current environment, you know, the journalists are after anything that outrages. That's what gets eyeballs. You know, it's interesting. This, ex priest, you probably know him, Matthew Fox, he's very famous writer, written like 47 books or whatever.
[19:40.2]
He wrote this book and I was talking to him, he's 83 now. And he came to me and he said, you know, I wrote this book on Donald Trump as the Antichrist. And I, and I want to, I want to be on the show, not just to speak about that, but other books.
[20:01.0]
Yesterday four books came because I told him about the Antichrist. One I said, I don't know, I want to see that one first.
[20:12.3]
Well, I mean, it is, it's almost a joke, I think, within the Christian community that isn't, you know, solid on Donald Trump. Like, how can, you know, given the disparities in character and things like that.
[20:27.6]
And yeah, I've had all sorts of heard all sorts of crazy. There is like, like, because in Revelations, you know, that's exactly where the anti charismatic leader, a number of people will follow, experiences a head wound and survives it.
[20:45.8]
You know, the list goes on and on. I've heard all. Yeah, well, if you want to look up Matthew Fox, you will see he's very prolific. And used to be a priest and so came out of that priesthood, and has become a.
[21:01.6]
Just a prolific writer. So, you know, this sacred space that we're doing, you know, in your book, you state, you say we become the master of our issues instead of the casualty. And you know, when we tell our story, can you explain how naming our experiences gives us power over them?
[21:28.1]
Because I don't think I Name many of my experiences. I would think, like, okay, I had this issue in my marriage, I overcame it. I had issue with my kids, I had to really work on it.
[21:44.0]
But you, it's almost something and some of them are painful. And you, and you, and you don't want to really dive into him. I had this financial issue and I had to commit bankruptcy, whatever it might have been.
[22:01.5]
You know, if you go through all those stories in your life, how do you give power in the naming of these? That's a great question and it's probably best described.
[22:18.1]
And I don't know if I told you this story before, it's an old one, but I've never had a clear example of what you're asking. Then my interview with my then nine year old nephew Andy. And Andy wanted to be a 5000 days kid, his brother and sister in it.
[22:39.0]
And he asked me if he could join the project at 9. And I said sure. And so I just have the camera. He sits in front of me. I say, andy, you ready? He nods and he immediately burst into tears. And I said, andy, I haven't even asked you a question yet.
[22:57.3]
And he goes, I know, but I know what you're going to ask me. And I said, oh yeah, what's that? And he said, you're gonna ask me when's the last time I cried and why? And I said, well that's normally question seven, but you're, you're crying already. And he nods and I said, so you want to tell me about it?
[23:15.5]
And so he proceeds. Tell me about something that happened in his fourth grade classroom, three days before. And he got partway in the story, couldn't continue. And I said, andy, I'm here. I want to capture this, and I want to hear what, what the issue was.
[23:33.9]
And tries again. Second time through, doesn't it? Finally, third time through, he's able to tell me the whole story. And basically what happened was, he had been cast in the school musical, his teacher had asked him to stand up and sing his, his, solo.
[23:52.8]
He did that. Kids laughed at him, he burst into tears and ran out of classroom. The sort of thing that, you know, would put you in therapy as to why you can't speak in front of the Rotary club when you're 42, you know, that sort of thing. And just for stupid filmmaker reasons, I said, Andy, could you tell me the story one more time just so I have it clear?
[24:15.5]
Because most of it was, you know, this sort of thing. And so he tells it to me one more time. And he gets it. He gets it pretty good, you know, without a lot of the crying. And then I got this idea. I said, andy, do you trust me?
[24:32.1]
He says, of, course. And I said, okay, go with me. Last time I'll ask you to do this. Tell me the story one more time, but this time I want you to sing it. And he looks at me strange and goes, I was in my class and the teacher asked me to like, and immediately burst out laughing.
[24:55.4]
And I saw in the space of six minutes, something that had been so dark and frightening and inexplicable, something that had been like a cancer growing inside him.
[25:10.8]
I. I saw him barf it up, hold it in his hand, expose it to the healing, you know, source of air, and laugh at it. And that is when I realized that when we tell our stories, we gain power over them.
[25:30.1]
Yeah. And for biblical spots, scholars out there, if that means something to you, the Old Testament. So first. First thing God asked. First, first thing God gave to Adam and Eve is like, name the animals.
[25:47.9]
That was his first instruction because you gained power over it. And, you know, whether you're a biblical scholar or not, you simply will have examples in your life of when you have the courage to actually go through that process and be weak and be emotional and be needy and be frightened.
[26:07.8]
When you have the courage to do that. You've climbed the mountain. And I have. You wouldn't believe the number of people, Greg, that I have interviewed that have done incredible physical feasts, like climb great mountains that can't climb the interior mountain.
[26:25.8]
Yeah. And I think this is where men really struggle, because we're told from early age that, being emotional about something is a weakness, when actually learned is an incredible strength. And real courage is not just climbing a mountain.
[26:42.3]
Real courage is climbing that interior mountain. Be able to talk about your pain. And if we all did that, we're all more open about the things that are locked inside of us, we'd be so much healthier. Well, and frequently individuals, like that Rick, are still trying to prove something to themselves and others.
[27:05.2]
And I think it's. When you can let go of actually attempting to prove to anybody anything about yourself other than you are okay just the way you are, including the person, you're worth that. Then you can open up to.
[27:21.5]
You can open up to this. And. And I think that what you do through creating this, I've watched your trailer, and every time I watch the story about the little Boy talk about, you know, the sickness of his grandparents dying and then he gets very emotional because he didn't know that they were going to die.
[27:43.5]
And the questions you ask and the pause is in between giving the child time. It always just struck me, you know, I, I look at that trailer every time and I'm like super emotional about that work that you've done and the healing that occurred.
[27:59.8]
You could see it in, in that little boy, you know, you could see it, that it was okay because at the end of it he knew that's what's going to happen to everybody. Right? Yeah. So you kind of gave an insight there about like, hey, death is part of life.
[28:16.1]
I have to accept it. I have to, I have to learn how to be okay with this. That doesn't mean that I'm still not attached to my grandparents. It just means that I learned something here about what life has.
[28:31.4]
I think his grandmother got cancer, whatever it was, and, and, and passed away. Right. So you know the story better than I do, but I, I will. Oh, she didn't. Oh, okay. But, that little boy, who is now 16, his name's Matthew.
[28:48.4]
He's amazing. He is extraordinary. He's, you know, he's a 40 year old caught in a boy's body. He's, he's got such maturity, it's such thoughtfulness and it is, you know, what I've found is that I.
[29:05.2]
Kids are struggling with two things that they're willing to get emotional about. And that is normally the death of a family member, particularly a grandparent or death of a pet. Yeah. They're also struggling with a whole bunch of other things that they don't feel like they're allowed to get emotional about.
[29:25.5]
All, sorts of struggles that they have. But that's a perfect example of Matthew being able to reframe the emotion that he was feeling uncomfortable with. As I said to him, you didn't see that whole interview, but I said to him, you know, grandparents die every day.
[29:49.7]
Why is this so tough for you? Well, because I love them. Okay, so you dared to love them. And so the cost of loving somebody is that when you lose them, which you will lose everybody at some point, everything ends.
[30:07.7]
Cost of loving them is this pain. And so if the product of love is also, is not only joy, but also pain, how can that be bad? Right. Is this good pain?
[30:22.8]
Because I, would worry about if you weren't sad. That's what would be a flag to me. If you dare to love someone It's a major. There's nothing we can do better in our life than to love. We. One of the things you mentioned was that you, you brought it up very early in this interview was that hundred foot painting.
[30:42.6]
And being so close to it, the metaphor, that we couldn't see the forest for the trees kind of thing. Right. How do you see yourself in it? How do your interviews help people step back to gain this perspective?
[30:59.1]
Because I know many times we feel lost. It's like we're. We're not so lost in the story. We just feel lost in our own emotions. To actually be able to express them and to do that on camera is even a different thing.
[31:16.3]
Right. It's one thing I know maybe it was you that told me this. It's like when you write a book, and I'm almost certain it was you that said this, Write the book as if you're sitting in a movie theater with your best friend having a bag of popcorn.
[31:33.6]
Right? And the reality is, it's like there's. When I'm watching a movie, I literally think about that all the time. Because people want to get up front impersonal, and they want to feel that through a book or a video.
[31:56.0]
Well, it's the magic of storytelling. You can. Whenever any of us go to a conference, the guy can be talking or, the woman can be talking about the most brilliant theory ever. But the minute he or she goes.
[32:13.4]
And when I was with my son who decided. But the whole audience moves forward because we communicate through stories from the oldest campfire time around the campfire. And so it's no mystery as to why our story and getting it out there is so vital and being learned and being able to learn how to tell it.
[32:37.8]
And so what I do with the interview, it's really just story cue. Method is basically, Socratic dialogue or conversation that instead of using psychology or philosophy, it uses story, which we all have access to.
[32:52.8]
So a lot of people, I mean, I think psychology is brilliant and vital. And, especially there's some extreme sicknesses that only psychology can deal with. Philosophy the same way has a great role. But everybody has access to their story.
[33:10.6]
And I think that's the magic of the story. Q Method. And so becoming a personal story mentor or receiving the services of a personal story mentor is. Starts with your, earliest memories in your childhood. I have discovered.
[33:25.8]
For instance. Well, let me ask you this, Greg. What was your earliest memory? My earliest memory was as a kid when I lived in St. Louis with a dog by the name of Tippy and our backyard, doughboy pool, during the summer times, where Tippy would kind of run around the pool when my brothers and myself were in that kind of doughboy pool in the humidity and the heat and whatever.
[33:59.1]
But I definitely remember Tippy. And then I remember Tippy. She had puppies, and I didn't know where those puppies came from.
[34:11.5]
So, your good buddy Tippy was a girl? Yes, it was a girl. It was. Right. And what emotion do you associate with that memory? Togetherness. Okay. You know, like just this strong bond of the family doing something together.
[34:31.7]
And I'm not saying we didn't do stuff together, but frequently, it didn't seem like it happened frequently enough. Like, you know, like, just even the 4th of July events where it's like, okay, we all got together and we cooked, up hamburgers or whatever we did.
[34:50.4]
And the, the conversations we had as a family, or even if it weren't conversations, the things that we did together, participate in. We go to a parade or did we watch a movie, or did we do something like that? So I would argue in interviewing you and asking you that question, that that has largely informed your worldview, that you see the world as basically a generous place with possibilities, which is probably why you do what you do.
[35:26.7]
But I find that people's earliest memories,
[35:33.0]
tend to dictate or be a reflection of. Because who knows what your first memory is? Did it come off a pick? You know, who knows? But tend to dictate or reflect your point of view of the world. Perfect example, I was interviewing a homeless guy.
[35:52.8]
And he was 43, but he looked early 60s. I mean, he'd been on the street a long time. My son Max, my oldest son, was, filming, and I was doing the interview and I asked about his earliest memory.
[36:11.6]
And his earliest memory was age 10. Most People, it's three or four, but he was at age 10. He said, oh, earliest memory is probably my best memory. He said, I was at a company picnic with my dad and he put his hand on my head.
[36:38.5]
That was his best memory. And that speaks volumes about his life and his longing and what he missed. And, the fact that that was the highlight of his life. I like that. I like that question about the earliest memories.
[36:54.8]
And obviously those are some of the things, you know, you do. I go out on the streets and shoot videos because my Compassionate Communications foundation helps the homeless. And I literally have hundreds of hours of videos.
[37:11.1]
But my question usually to them is, how did you get out here on the street so that I could hear their story. What were the set of circumstances that got you out on the. And I'm just shooting with an iPhone. Right. But the reality is, is that it's always interesting to hear the variations of stories about the incidences that actually.
[37:35.0]
Or the circumstances that led up to homelessness. Yeah, right. How did you get here? Right. Like the rent was too high, or I was a drug addict, or I stole something, or I, you know, my current parents kicked me out or whatever it might have been.
[37:52.9]
Right. But then there's always more to the story. Right. That's the circumstance then it's how they feel now being out here. Right. So I, I love what you were saying this because his earliest memory was 10.
[38:09.4]
I find that many of those people on the street because of their. Either drug addiction or their alcoholism or whatever it may have been. That it's true. They don't have the recollection of, you know, digging deep back in.
[38:24.8]
But that's very poignant, what you said about his dad. Putting the hand on what I thought, what I found. I turned to Max and we both had like tears in our eyes, the fact that this was the case. But I mean, I can tell you story after story.
[38:41.4]
One guy, you know, his first memories being yanked out of his room because his room was on fire. You know, there, there's literally one thing after another. But when it comes to your homeless, series, all of the questions are important. They're all building blocks to understand.
[39:00.0]
Helping the person look back and see their journey and understand maybe why they feel the way they do about things, why they have the point of view on things, why they feel trapped in certain ways and. Well, what I find so phenomenal about what you do with your phone is I remember speaking at a conference once with a fellow speaker who had been homeless.
[39:24.0]
And he said, and then he was like, famous because he'd written this great book and whatever, but he said the most, the greatest struggle with being homeless was being invisible. Yeah. They, you hit the nail on the head because not very many people take the time to put them on camera to ask them their story.
[39:47.9]
And the fact that they even have someone asking, it's almost like it's the easiest question I could ask is like, how did you get out here? It's like they all want to share because they've never been asked to share. Right. So.
[40:02.9]
And that leads me to this, that, you know, how you decide to ask the right questions in the right order in the right setting, is for the. For some given interview. Can you share an example where the alignment of the stars all lined up and it made a breakthrough possible?
[40:24.5]
Because it doesn't always happen with every interview. And it doesn't. I mean, I wish it did. Yeah, but it hap. If you do it right, it happens in the majority of them. And it's, The answer to the question is quite simple.
[40:39.8]
That is, you start, you know, my first book, 21 things you forgot about being a kid. The whole basis of that is that we're all suffering from arrested development in every various areas of our life. Like, a lot of people at 13 get arrested in the romantic area of their life, you know, or bowling at age 10 or something like this.
[41:00.4]
And, I always would come home from interviews, and my wife Julie would go, you always come home so animated, you know, after having done an interview. Like, what? Why is that? I say, I keep figuring out stuff about myself when I'm interviewing a kid, and, you know this, and I suddenly understand something.
[41:28.9]
It opens a door that had been shut, and. And I was like, oh, my gosh. Do I have thousands of kids around the world helping me work out my issues? And, the answer is yes. Yes, you do. You're very, very fortunate to do the work you do.
[41:48.4]
I mean, I'm reflecting on you, speaking about how you had very high intellect, but your emotional intelligence was in the gutter. You said prior to marrying Julie, or at least you. That's the way you observed it. I'm not quite certain that's 100% true about you, Rick, because now your EQ is about as high as they come, because of the numbers of hours you spend on the other side of the camera listening to other people's stories.
[42:15.3]
And I think, as somebody who has an organization that's focused both on philanthropic work and on work to allow people to get their story out. And I kind of want to wrap up our.
[42:30.6]
Our interview here with a question for you. If. If you were to whisper one truth to every person out here who's listening to this interview, struggling to understand their story, what would it be?
[42:49.6]
And, why now more than ever, is the truth so important to be told? Right. Because the question is, it's like, now I'm seven. I'm going to be 71 in July. I don't know about you, but the point is, is that as you age and you look at finitude and you look at legacy, I'm sure many of the people you interview, especially for the personal stuff is like, hey, I want to leave this for my family.
[43:18.9]
Right. And. And you don't have to be extremely wealthy to do this. You know, some people may think that it's only reserved for the wealthy to put all their story on a, on a thing. Tell us a little bit about it and why now and why more than ever should people get the truth out?
[43:39.0]
It goes back to my original thing that it's, I feel, our duty as human beings. If you care about the future, if you care about the world, leave your wisdom. And people that have done this get back to me all the time saying, my family said they'd never received a greater gift.
[44:02.1]
So being able to share that. Did you get your grandfathers on tape? No. Nor did I get my parents. Oh, yeah, this is my restitution, doing this project. No, I was just curious if you did, because, you know, as you said, your grandfather sitting on the end of the dock with his arm around you, give you such a worldly view about your place in the world.
[44:29.3]
You know, you said eighth grade education. No, he had a master's degree in life, right? He had a doctorate in life. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No matter how crusty it was or how many people went through the bar or how drunk he got or whatever he did.
[44:45.9]
But the reality was, you see, he had a master's degree in life. Yeah. And, you know, I think. I think you'd asked me blocks to doing this, and one was, people don't feel their story is significant. The other is really straightforward.
[45:01.7]
People are just afraid to feel. Yeah. And yet when you allow yourself to go there and. And the thing I do, they're can complete control of their story.
[45:18.6]
That's like they can break out into some rant they never want anybody to hear. And that doesn't end up in their film. If they don't want it in their film. You know, this is their chance to just vomit up what they feel and then put it together in a way that they think represents who they are.
[45:40.3]
And I think there's just nothing better you can do for your kids, for your grandkids, for their kids, because there's a lot of brain science around that. When people. When kids have a sense of where they've come from, and it builds resilience, it builds confidence.
[46:02.6]
And it allows them to realize they already have a place in the world. They've just got to find it. And as you said, it used to be that to do a personal documentary, it'd be, you know, 150 to a hundred thousand dollars higher.
[46:18.3]
Filmmakers come in, we do it for just a fraction of that and it achieves mostly the same thing because we use this interview as the structural piece building from childhood to reveal the person the way they want to be revealed.
[46:38.9]
And the great thrill, as you said, is asking a question the right way, in the right order, in the right setting, the right manner to help them get to their right answers. And you do that by asking the questions that at some point reach in and make a difference to them and, and, and touch them emotionally.
[47:09.1]
Well, you're, you're kind of like while you're speaking. I was like, man, is he the psycho cinematographer? Because the reality is it's, it's kind of, it isn't psychoanalysis because there is no analysis about it.
[47:24.5]
It's actually story telling. Right. And I want my listeners to know again, that Rick offers this service, both individuals, and for the story.
[47:40.2]
Q. Right. And he's got his personal website which links to that as well. It's just Rick Stevenson. S T E V E N S O N. It'll be in the show Notes will also have the link, to how, how you can, if you want to make a video about yourself, your family, we'll have the link to be able to reach out to him to do that as well.
[48:06.4]
And Rick, can you hold up that book again? Because, yeah, reading this, if anybody wants to write me, just like my website is very cleverly. Rick stevenson.com. right.
[48:21.7]
My email is Rick at Rick. So, we work really hard, lots of marketing and there's the book and go to Amazon and we're going to have a link at Amazon for that book. And I think that's a great place for people to start.
[48:39.5]
So if you have any questions or you have any hesitations, go get Rick's book first. Go get this book first, read this book, then contact Rick, if you believe, you know, like you said, he's now up to 7,500 stories with the kids, on his project there you, can learn about the, his speaking as well.
[49:05.6]
He's got a little button there. You can push him about getting him to speak for you. But Rick, it's been an honor having you back on again, to speak about this new book. And I'm going to do everything I can to help you, get people to understand more about what it is you do, why it is you do it, and why it would benefit them.
[49:26.8]
I think the key is, is you know, what are the benefits here? It isn't just about getting, your mug on a video, speaking about it. It's more about what you can actually have your family make a, I'm going to say a transition as a result of this or a transformation.
[49:50.0]
Right. In their own personal growth, in their own way to kind of start to express story. So the story cue method, is it? That's what Rick does. Rick, any last words before we exit our little interview here?
[50:07.6]
I think probably just reminded that you own nothing more valuable than your own story. So do something with it. Very well said, my friend. And again, thanks for being on the show one more time, and we will certainly make sure people go out and get your new book.
[50:26.7]
Thanks so much. Thanks for having me. Bye. Bye.
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Inside Personal Growth with Greg Voisen · Podcast 1229: How to Communicate, Meditate & Heal Like a Buddhist – Cynthia Kane on Mindful Speech, Self-Talk & Everyday TransformationIn this powerful episode of Inside Personal Growth, host Greg Voisen sits down with returning guest and bestselling author Cynthia Kane. Known for her transformative teachings that blend Buddhist principles with modern communication, Cynthia shares deeply personal insights, practical tools, and everyday practices that can shift the way we speak, listen, and—most importantly—talk to ourselves.
As the founder of the Kane Intentional Communication Institute, Cynthia has helped thousands of people reframe their internal and external conversations through mindfulness, self-awareness, and compassionate speech.
Cynthia Kane’s Trilogy on Mindful LivingCynthia’s teachings are grounded in her acclaimed trilogy of books:
- How to Communicate Like a Buddhist – Learn how to speak consciously, clearly, and concisely, using Buddhist principles like right speech to reduce conflict and foster connection.
- Talk to Yourself Like a Buddhist: Five Mindful Practices to Silence Negative Self-Talk – Discover tools to transform self-criticism into compassion using five key practices: listening, exploring, questioning, releasing, and balancing.
- How to Meditate Like a Buddhist – A gentle guide for those new to meditation, featuring breathwork, body awareness, and small steps that lead to big inner shifts.
From Grief to Growth: Cynthia’s Turning PointCynthia candidly shares how she came to these teachings—not through academic study, but through personal loss. After losing her first love unexpectedly, she found herself struggling to reconnect with life. An invitation to a meditation and writing workshop at the Shambhala Institute in New York became the catalyst for her transformation. There, she encountered Buddhist teachings on right speech—a practice of communicating with truth, kindness, and intention—and began reshaping her inner world.
“That one weekend completely changed the trajectory of my life,” she says.
The 3 C’s of Conscious CommunicationCynthia outlines her “3 C’s” for transforming everyday communication:
- Conscious – Speak with awareness. Are your words helpful? Are they necessary?
- Clear – Use specific, direct language. Vagueness creates misunderstanding.
- Concise – Speak less, listen more. Reduce the noise and let clarity speak.
She also encourages the mindful use of silence—not as avoidance or punishment, but as a space to check in with yourself, to pause, and to create deeper intimacy in dialogue.
Taming the Inner CriticCynthia addresses the “unreported epidemic” of negative self-talk, explaining why we’re often far harsher to ourselves than we are to anyone else. Her solution? Begin with awareness.
“If the words you’re using create more fear, doubt, or anxiety—then they aren’t helpful,” she says.
To break these patterns, she teaches the five practices of self-communication:
- Listening to internal dialogue
- Exploring the origin of those thoughts
- Questioning their truth
- Releasing judgment and blame
- Balancing with kindness and affirmation
Meditation, Breath & PresenceFor those intimidated by meditation, Cynthia offers a refreshingly simple start: count your breaths up to ten. No pressure, no perfect posture—just presence.
“Every time you take a breath, you’re in the present moment,” she reminds us.
“That’s where awareness begins, and healing follows.”
Whether dealing with anxiety, emotional overwhelm, or simply the rush of life, breathwork becomes the anchor back to yourself.
Real Change Starts with Inner KindnessWhat makes Cynthia’s work stand out is not just its practicality, but its accessibility. She reminds us that mindfulness doesn’t need to be intimidating or religious—it’s a way of being. Her own journey, once filled with judgment and passive-aggressive communication, has evolved into a life of conscious relationships, open dialogue, and emotional clarity.
“These practices changed my life,” she says.
“And now I get to see them change other people’s lives too.”
Connect with Cynthia KaneExplore her work and programs:
Website
How to Communicate Like a Buddhist
Talk to Yourself Like a Buddhist
How to Meditate Like a Buddhist
Instagram
Facebook
LinkedIn
If you’ve ever struggled with your words, your thoughts, or your ability to be still—this conversation with Cynthia Kane is your invitation to slow down, breathe, and begin again.
You may also refer to the transcripts below for the full transcription (not edited) of the interview.
Interview Transcipt -Not EditedEmailDownloadNew Tab[00:02.0]
Well, welcome to Inside Personal Growth. Sitting on the other side of the screen there, as you can see, is Cynthia Kane. And Cynthia was just on our show, and she did a full podcast about one book called the Pause Principle, how it learn how it can transform your relationships.
[00:27.3]
Cynthia, good day to you. I appreciate you coming back again. Oh, I'm happy to be back. And the reason that I had her back is because she had a trilogy of books prior to this book. And do you want to hold those books up for our listeners?
[00:42.5]
Yeah, they can see those. Trilogy. How to Meditate Like a Buddha, Meditate Like a Buddhist, Talk to Yourself like a Buddhist, and then how to Communicate like a Buddhist. Perfect. So we're going to actually do one podcast here that's going to cover a little bit about all three of these books because they're kind of intertwined.
[01:05.7]
You know, it's really all about, Buddhism, but it's really more about how you transform yourself, how you can transform yourself. And I'm going to let them know a little bit about you.
[01:22.8]
She has a company called Caine Intentional Communication Institute. And we'll put a link in the show notes here. But she's the founder of that organization, and it's a leading communication institute that provides services to individuals and companies to improve communication skills.
[01:43.4]
Cynthia, used her proprietary process called the CANE Intentional Communication TM Practice to help her students experience more peace so they could show up authentically, in the most important relationships. As we said, she's the author of all of these books.
[02:01.7]
She's been featured in Spirituality and Health Magazine, Self Magazine, Thrive, Global Authority Magazine, the Washington Post, Women's Day, BBC Travel, and the list goes on Mind, Body Green. She's been featured in Mindfulness and Meditation Expert in the Great Day Washington, Good morning, Arizona, Good morning, Connecticut, and all about women.
[02:25.2]
So she's been out there doing it and getting to the media. She has a Bachelor of Arts degree from Bard College and a Master of Fine Arts degree from Sarah Lawrence College. And she lives in Washington, D.C. with her husband. And she says her two kiddos. Well, her two kiddos that she actually has to kind of cart around.
[02:43.5]
So we, we were talking about that last time. Yeah, but that's part of being a mother and, having a family. So it's really, really important. And, you know, this whole thing, around Buddhism. Right. So whether it's the Dalai Lama or it's anybody else that people out there have really followed and I always love, every time I see the Dalai Lama, I've seen him in person once in Arizona.
[03:14.4]
How playful and how laugh. Much laughter always comes out of it. It's like, yeah, it's like a constant amount of laughter. It's just like he'll end comment and he'll go, you know. And I'm like, wow, this guy laughs a lot.
[03:30.6]
Tell us how important just being playful and laughing and knowing that whatever it is, isn't that serious is when it comes to not just Buddhism, but how all of us should probably spend most of our lives.
[03:48.0]
Yeah, well, I think playfulness is a really big part of really being present. Right. In our, in our lives. And it helps us become present because we can only laugh when we are in the present moment.
[04:03.0]
We can only create when we're in the present moment. Right. And this sense of playfulness though is really important because it is not taking ourselves too seriously. We are constantly changing, our emotions are constantly changing.
[04:20.6]
Everything is impermanent. And so when we kind of look through that lens, things can feel a little lighter sometimes and we can start to maybe experiment more where before, you know, things may seem more serious and there's only one way to do a thing.
[04:39.3]
Right. So we try to lighten it up a little bit. Yeah, I think the whole concept around, I know when I go to meditation retreats, it comes up for me around wonderment, you know, just the, the exploring the world as if you're seeing it from kids eyes for the first time, you know.
[04:58.4]
Yeah. It's like we're so conditioned in so many ways that you know, you, you can look at a petal on a flower and say, wow, how beautiful it is. Well, 95 of the world or more just passes by or they don't smell the rose or they don't take the time to hug a tree.
[05:16.2]
And I know it sounds kind of strange to maybe many people listening, but the reality is these are the kind of things that actually I think bring more peace and more joy into one's life. Yeah. Your Buddhist inspired communication trilogy has really resonated with thousands of readers.
[05:36.0]
And for all my listeners, you can go get these books on Amazon, and we'll put links to all of them in the show notes below. So take a look at that. What personal experiences led you personally to explore Buddhism principles as really this framework for modern communication and self talk?
[05:56.1]
Well, I, I didn't know much about Buddhism growing up. I had never studied it or anything and I, I didn't really have an interest until I was given this opportunity to go to a workshop at the Shambhala Institute in New York when I lived there.
[06:17.2]
And that came through because I, I had lost my first love unexpectedly. And I was really trying to figure out how to enjoy being here again and really trying to understand how, you know, how to just move through the day to day differently.
[06:37.5]
And when a friend of mine introduced me to this meditation and writing workshop, at the Shambhala Institute, I was trying everything at that time to try to find my way out of this, you know, this darkness that I was really in. And it was that weekend where I learned how to meditate and where I learned the elements of right speech and Buddhism that really transformed me.
[07:04.3]
I mean, it was that aha, Moment that a lot of people have at some point where this, this idea of being able to connect in a kind, honest and helpful way and communicate in a way that was more helpful than hurtful felt like my way out of suffering.
[07:32.2]
And, that's really where I was introduced to the concepts of the elements of right speech in Buddhism. And I had been, you know, before this workshop, I had been doing a lot of courses and reading a lot of books and going to a lot of trainings.
[07:47.4]
And communication was a big piece of what I was learning about in terms of changing or transforming or starting to feel better in the world. But I couldn't pinpoint actually how to do it and what I was, you know, like what the actual, steps were.
[08:08.7]
And so when I was introduced to the elements of right speech, which are to tell the truth, to don't exaggerate, don't gossip, and use helpful language, I, I knew, okay, this is my way out. Like, this is how I can actually change how I communicate.
[08:26.5]
But then I had to figure out how to do it right. How to start speaking in a kind, honest and helpful way, how to not, exaggerate, how to stop gossiping. And so that was really how I was introduced to, to Buddhism. And that, I mean, that was really that one weekend that completely changed my, my whole entire trajectory after that.
[08:50.5]
Well, I mean, in Buddhism there's the statement that there's going to be a, put a paraphrase. It, there's going to be pain, but suffering is really the option, right? So, and I think that's a really important statement for people to ponder, right?
[09:08.8]
We're all going to go through life. It isn't going to be without pains. The question is, is how much do we need to suffer around the pain? That's a choice. A mental model or construct and in how to communicate like a Buddhist, you introduce what you call the three C's of speaking.
[09:26.8]
And you talk about speaking consciously, concisely, clearly. And your company is really about communicating and listening. Right? So I would say, hey, it's also as much about listening. Could you break down for the listeners what each of these three means in practice?
[09:48.2]
Because even me as a podcaster, sometimes I lose sight of these. Right? And it's. It's easy to do when in a conversation because you're either your mind is going, oh, I need to speed this along, or I need to, I have to get to the next question or whatever it might be, and I think there's a lot for me to learn just from what you will have to say here.
[10:16.6]
Well, so speaking consciously, really what that means is we're starting to pay attention to the language that we're using, right? So we start to pay attention, to if our language is helpful, if it's moving the conversation forward. We start to become more conscious of, you know, what's happening within us within a conversation.
[10:38.0]
So we're learning more about how our emotions and our thoughts can dictate the way that we interact. So becoming conscious means we're starting to notice and pay attention to the language that we're using, and if it's, you know, if it really is necessary, if it's helpful.
[10:59.9]
And we're also starting to become more conscious of our role within a conversation as well. We can be in a lot of different interactions and take on many different roles within that conversation. So we can choose to be a daughter in a conversation.
[11:15.0]
We can choose to be a friend. We can choose to be, you know, a boss. We can choose to be a teacher. We can choose. And based off of being conscious of what role we're playing, we become more, you know, conscious of the different types of language that we may be using. So becoming more conscious just means, really, we're starting to be more mindful, paying attention to what we're saying while we're saying it, and we're doing so with.
[11:39.6]
Without evaluation or without judgment. So we're coming really more through this, this friend friendliness, right? More of like a gentleness when we're looking and noticing and then communicating. First it's consciously, then clearly we want to be clear, because vague language just really causes a lot of confusion and a lot of misunderstanding.
[12:05.3]
And. And so to become clear, really what we start to pay attention to is being very specific with our language. So in conversations, a lot of times, we Will share information, but we will not be very clear in.
[12:23.2]
For example, we could say, you know, I need this to be into me by the end of the day. But by the end of the day for me might be 5pm, but by the end of the day for you could be 6pm Right. So if we get really clear, then there's no room for misunderstanding.
[12:38.6]
So then it would simply be, you know, I, would need that into me by 5pm today, the other 5pm Eastern today. Then the other person understands. Okay, that's exactly the same time. Right. So we start to become more clear with our language. And then the last piece is really becoming concise because we can just speak too much.
[12:57.6]
We can over explain, we can dance around, and we will lose the person very, very quickly. And we really want to be able to speak so another person can hear us or can understand us. And to do that means we really need to cut the fat of what we're saying, so that, you know, we're speaking less, not more.
[13:16.6]
Well, and I think, you know, Cynthia, sometimes people get it before they get it, and so they get impatient with you because here you are doing this and a lot of times you don't know what, that brings me to this part in communicate like a Buddhist.
[13:35.2]
And I want you to explain this because it's the language of silence. Yeah. And okay, so people are like, the language of silence. Is there really language in silence? There is, There is.
[13:50.7]
And so what advice would you have about incorporating that into our daily communications? Well, I think just starting to notice silence in how you use silence in your conversations is important because sometimes we'll use it to power over, to punish or to push away.
[14:09.1]
But really what we're looking for is can we start to use silence, bringing it into our conversations by whether it looks like pausing and taking these kind of gaps within your conversation. So you start to practice pausing more in your conversation.
[14:27.1]
But in that silence, what you're looking to do do is you're looking to find a way to collaborate more, or you're finding a way to be more helpful, or you're starting to pay attention in the conversation to how you can keep the integrity of the conversation intact.
[14:45.4]
So you bring silence in more to kind of create that space to become present, to check in with yourself, to then be able to express yourself and expressing yourself in a way that's kind, honest, and helpful. So we use silence to create more intimacy within a conversation or create more connection.
[15:07.7]
I think it also gives you time. This is just my personal reflection on Silence to contemplate. And maybe contemplate isn't the right word, but I will use it. Contemplate, not really what you're going to say, but how you're going to be.
[15:26.3]
I love that. Yeah, it's like, it's, it's a, it's an essence in which you carry yourself or you come across. If you give yourself the silence to contemplate that, I think it works out very well. So now in, in your, in your books, your other book is Talk to Yourself like a Buddhist.
[15:51.5]
Okay, so it's like, hey, people used to tell me, you know, I wrote a book on intuition and I said I would hear things. Some people are auditory, some people are kinesthetic. And, and I look at it from a spiritual standpoint. I'm being spoken to and I have to have, the discernment what is coming through.
[16:14.8]
So you discuss what you call the unreported epidemic of self, negative self, talk, which, hey look, it's out there all over the place. Why do you think we're often harder on ourselves than we would ever be on anybody else?
[16:33.3]
And what a prescription do you have for this negative self talk? Well, I think we're harder on ourselves because we don't understand how, how important we are.
[16:51.9]
In the sense that we're very outward focused. Right. And we're you know, when it comes to people sharing attributes or qualities of others that are really, you know, positive, we always hear about being selfless and we always hear about giving to others and you know, being friendly towards others and being kind towards others.
[17:19.4]
And there's not so much in our, you know, educational system really around taking ourselves into consideration and being kind towards ourselves and being caring towards ourselves. So I think that's one piece of it.
[17:35.7]
I think we don't see that we need to be able to extend that nurturing love and care to ourselves first before we can extend it to other people. And I think it's a matter of shifting that.
[17:51.8]
And a lot of times when working with people. It sounds strange, but I'll often say that what we really have to do is we have to start putting ourselves first. Right. We have to start connecting with ourselves first and talking to ourselves first in a kind, honest and helpful way before we can actually have kind conversations with other people.
[18:12.8]
But I do think that the first step towards changing the way that we talk to ourselves is starting to notice how we are in this moment. Right. So we can Pay attention to. If the words that we're using are hurtful, if they're causing more anxiety, if they're causing more doubt, causing more fear, then we know that we're talking to ourself in a way that isn't very helpful.
[18:38.0]
So then the work would be, well, how can I speak to myself in a way that's kind, honest and helpful? That's more objective? Right. So it's. Yeah. Well, so what do you, what do you advocate? I mean, meditation.
[18:53.1]
We're going to get to it. But, but, so you're. We're, you know, we're talking about negative self talk here, but the first thing is self awareness. And you just said, hey, how are we in the moment? And what I find myself even doing is that it's almost like I'm not even taking that breath.
[19:18.4]
Yeah. Because we talked about in, in your other book, the. The breath, how important it would be. And I would think one of the tools that I personally would say that I don't use it enough is to take a deep breath. I've noticed myself even in this interview now taking two or three deep breaths while you're talking to like really realize where I'm at.
[19:41.9]
Yeah, right. Does actually paying attention to our breath bring greater self awareness to the negative self talk? It does, yes. Because what it. Every time you take a breath, right.
[19:58.2]
What you're noticing is you're in the present moment. Right. So our negative self talk is a distraction. It is It means that anytime we're thinking, we're not in the present moment. So you can use your breath as a way to detach from your thoughts.
[20:19.5]
Right. So you can come back into the present moment and then begin again. And the breath is a wonderful way to do that. You know, I had one author tell me, and he's a doctor and a hypnotherapist, and he said worry, which is one way you can talk about negative self talk.
[20:37.1]
It's like, hey, I'm worried. It's misguided imagination. I love. Yes, right. I thought it was a great statement. Now your Middle path of self communication includes what you refer to AS5 practices. Listening, exploring, questioning, release and balance.
[20:56.3]
Could you share an example of how those practices might transform a common negative thought pattern? Because some people get into a pattern of I'm not enough. Right.
[21:11.5]
Or I'll never be enough. Yeah. And, and it's, it's one that, you know, if the neural pathway was to be broken, I would say, hey, tapping, breathing. All kinds of things. To get you out of this pattern that you've done.
[21:30.1]
I had an experience with it very early on in my life, in my actually 20s and 30s of, anxiety attacks. And they were so severe that I ended up going and getting electrodes on my head.
[21:46.8]
And I really realized that through meditation I could control them. Right. And then they went away completely, but they were so severe that it, at times I was housebound. Yeah. Right. So I think people need to understand how powerful this really is.
[22:05.8]
Right. The breathing, any technique that works for you, but reality, I think breathing is one of them. Because once you slow down and you notice your breathing, you also realize how you're talking to yourself. Yeah. Because you're slowing everything down.
[22:21.5]
So you're becoming more aware and paying attention. Right? Yeah. So when we look at, let's say, this idea of not, you know, not being good enough, we start listening to that. So that's the first piece, right? You're listening and you're saying, oh, there I am. I'm talking to myself in a way that's unhelpful, that's hurtful.
[22:38.4]
Right. And then it's a bit about, well, where does it actually come from? Right. Is this my voice? Or is this, a voice that, you know, comes from the past? Is it my mother's voice? Is it my father's voice? Is it my sister's voice? Is it, my teacher's voice?
[22:54.7]
My partner's voice? Right. Or is this really mine? And so we explore a little bit to understand, is this a label that I gave myself, you know, because of an experience that I had when I was 7? So we start to see that maybe this isn't true.
[23:15.2]
Right. So first we hear it, then we explore it a little bit. And then the questions are really, is this true? Is what I'm saying to myself true? Sounds like Byron, Katie a little. Right. It is different.
[23:30.6]
She used to ask people, is it true? Is it really true? Because, you know, I said we live in the msu, the world of making stuff up and then believing what we make up and then living what we made up. Yeah. Right. And so to break the pattern of MSU and I, I wouldn't be nicer making up, but the reality is, is that we would.
[23:52.3]
We make up stories all the time, but we don't realize it. Right. But we believe that's true. Yeah. But it's really not true. Because if you ask anybody else from the outside, they would go, what are you talking about?
[24:07.4]
A lot of times that's what they would say. Yeah, yeah. So it really is. Can we see clearly in this moment? Right. Can we identify. This isn't actually a story. That's a real story. This is something that I'm just telling myself because I feel this way, or there's a label or there's scarcity or, you know, whatever it might be.
[24:29.1]
And then we have to forgive ourselves for talking to ourselves in a difficult way, in a hurtful way, and then we can release it. So, you know, there's also different practices that we do like meditation to be, like, very helpful.
[24:47.0]
Meta meditation is a wonderful meditation that we can do to help with negative self talk. Because meta meditation is really all about extending more compassion towards ourselves and seeing ourselves as somebody that we want to care for and be kind to. Right. And so that then changes the way we end up talking to ourselves.
[25:04.6]
So meditation is a great tool for it as well. Breathing practices, tapping. Right. All the phrasing of, you know, even though I'm, you know, feeling insecure right now, I deeply and completely love and accept myself. Even just saying that phrase to ourselves relaxes us, potentially loosens us up to see.
[25:26.4]
Are you saying an affirmation or mantra? So mantras can help. A mantra. Prior to that, I mean, I noticed in your wording above, I don't think it meant Transcendental Meditation, but you had tm. It was TM around a process that you'd come up.
[25:42.4]
Yes. Yeah, Trademarked. But, yeah, for a minute there, I was thinking, oh, she's using Transcendental Meditation. No, no, no, no, no. I want to be very clear. I don't use Transcendental Meditation. Okay. So that's good to know.
[25:57.7]
It's good to know. So, look, there's a lot of beginners out there. There's a lot of people that have never practiced it. It always amazes me when I tell people, hey, do you meditate or do you do this? And they'll say, no, I've never done it, and I'm. I'm afraid of it.
[26:12.9]
Or, it's not something that's part of the religious background that I came from. So for beginners who are intimidated by meditation, what simple practice for the how to Meditate like a Buddhist would you recommend as an entry point?
[26:31.0]
I mean, I've heard, we had Dr. Brantley on here from Duke University, who wrote all these Five Minute Meditation books. I mean, he was famous for the Five Minute Meditation series. And I know frequently authors like yourself will say, hey, you know, start off with three or five minutes.
[26:53.4]
Don't even do that. Do it while you're in the car or do a walking meditation or do whatever. What would you recommend if you were speaking to someone right now, has never done it before, and it's like, okay, I really want to try something to see if I can break this negative, self talk.
[27:11.0]
So I would do long, slow, deep breathing as a meditation, which means you're inhaling to the top, then you're exhaling and you're silently saying to yourself, one, and then you're going to inhale and exhale and silently say two.
[27:27.2]
Then you're going to inhale and exhale. You're going to go up to 10. And that's what I would start with. Because I think sometimes meditation does have this really overwhelming, like it feels really, really big.
[27:45.3]
And so it's important for us to see that it is a simple practice. It doesn't have to be sitting for very long amounts of time. It really can just be counting our breaths, right, to begin with, or even just taking five long, slow, deep inhales and exhales in the morning just to start understanding and seeing the, the changes just from those small, you know, the small.
[28:12.5]
What obstacles. What obstacles did Cynthia Cain face when she first started? And how did you. I mean, I faced all the obstacles. I mean, the monkey mind was really bad, Oh, yeah. It was everywhere. I'm like, why am I doing this? What is happening?
[28:28.8]
Am I doing this right? I would fall asleep, sleep all the time. I would, I, mean, I would be bored, I'd be restless. I mean, I would really fall into all of the obstacles. For sure. To do list would come into your head. Oh, yeah.
[28:44.4]
Why am I sitting here when I should be going to get the kids or doing this or doing. And then like, sensation in the body. Oh, my legs. Asleep, I have a scratch. Do I itch it? Like, I mean, my mind was, you know, everywhere. I.
[28:59.8]
I'd never ever sat by myself before. You know what we're in. In your humble opinion, as someone who's written three books now on Buddhist practices, how did you overcome all of those obstacles which we've all faced?
[29:17.4]
Right. I mean, I happen to be part of self realization fellowship. And they will have six hour meditations now. It's very challenging. I never have done one. I'm going to be honest with everybody out there, so that would scare me. I've never made through six hours.
[29:36.3]
And granted, they take breaks. They. Okay, they kind of do take like, water. But the challenge is Is that you don't need to look at it as that extreme. Right. You need to look at it as a way to slow you down, to recalibrate your body.
[29:58.5]
And so what did you do to recalibrate your body so that it started to accept the two minutes, the three minutes, the five minutes, and so that you got to a point where, Maybe. I know, for me, at the peaks of meditation, I.
[30:16.8]
At my crown chakra, I get this pulsating purple going in and out, in and out. And. And to me, when I can get there, I'm like, whoa, this is a whole new. I'm like, man, how did I get here?
[30:32.2]
This is like I went out of body. Yeah. In the gap. Yeah. I mean, I think for. For me, even though it was challenging, I could tell that something was different within me.
[30:47.6]
I could feel a difference. And so that's what kept me coming back. But it was more a lot seeing if the. The practice for me became allowing my mind to be wild and crazy, right? It was like, okay, I'm not going to resist what is happening here.
[31:06.2]
I'm actually going to see. Can I sit beside what's happening here? So I have all these thoughts running around. That's okay. It's okay to have thoughts. So that's what I would tell myself right? When I'm sitting there and I'm meditating and all the thoughts are coming, and I'm like, oh, stop.
[31:21.7]
Like, this isn't. I'm not supposed to be doing this. I'm supposed to be quieting my mind. But the reality is that we cannot quiet our mind, right? It's. We are seeing and noticing and observing. And if we can allow our thoughts to be there, that's actually when they start to leave, right?
[31:38.1]
And it's the same thing when the emotion would come, like, big emotion. I remember this one time having anxiety within the meditation, and it was so uncomfortable, and I wanted to just stop. And I said, okay, I'm gonna play with this. Right? Kind of back to that playfulness piece that you talked about in the beginning.
[31:55.6]
I'm gonna see, like, can I play with this? Can I allow this to be here? Can I turn my attention towards. Follow the anxiety in my body? And then it started to change. The texture of it started to change. And then I felt it leave the body.
[32:11.8]
And so it was. It became more like a playfulness practice for me to see. Can I allow myself to have whatever experience I'm having in meditation and can that be okay? And that was really liberating for me because I had not ever in my life really allowed myself to be however I was.
[32:34.1]
And it'd be okay because there was always judgment and evaluation and negative self talk. And so the moment that I gave that myself permission in the meditation to do that, it was, almost like I was giving myself permission to be kind to myself. You know, what you just stated is so important.
[32:52.2]
I think you, if you can be an observer of self. Right? Yeah. Like, okay, here's my body over here. I'm out here. There's another one of me. Just be okay with the monkey mind playing through everything it's going to do. And once you get there, after you get past this for a while, as you said, it starts to slow down, it starts to tune out.
[33:16.1]
Yeah, you start to tune in. Yes. You go deeper inward than you've ever been before. And that's where you have, an amazing experience. I'm not saying you're going to have a satori experience, but the reality is you'll be able to sit for longer at that point.
[33:34.6]
Yeah, yeah, right. Because, even, me, I think in my whole existence here, in 70 years, I've only had maybe one or two satori experiences where you actually felt like you were one with everything. Like it was just like, wow, what, what's going on?
[33:52.5]
And don't have an expectation of that. Right. The point is, is don't try to meditate toward that. Just allow that to happen and be, you know. So look, you've written these three books on Buddhist inspired communications and mindfulness practices.
[34:10.5]
So for Cynthia, what surprised you the most about how the readers of these books, because these aren't brand new books, have applied these teachings in their lives. And what inspires you to continue through even your organization to actually espouse these practices to be used for people in personal life and in their business life?
[34:36.4]
Well, I think, I mean, I, I was just surprised in general when my first book came out and people read it, you know, and then that people started then taking the practices within it and starting to apply it to their day to day.
[34:52.9]
Because for me this was all coming out of personal experience. So, you know, at this point, all of the work that I was writing about really had to do with, you know, what I was seeing within my own life. And then people were interested in it, so I started teaching other people and then the practices started helping them, which I, it was surprising to me.
[35:14.7]
I don't know why, because they helped me so much. Right. But so I think, for me, the, the biggest piece is really seeing how it changes, you know, family relationships, sibling relationships, how it, brings, you know, marriages that are, you know, on the brink of divorce, either back together or it creates a more conscious divorce.
[35:39.8]
Right. It creates easier way of expressing and empowering a decision. So I also think, you know, it's surprising to me how, how it really becomes. It's a daily practice and it's a practice that I practice daily.
[35:58.4]
But then to see other people start to implement it as such and just seeing what happens in their lives because of it is, to me, it's just such a beautiful thing. And, I, I'm. I had to share it because it was changing my life.
[36:15.5]
And it's still something that I absolutely love. It's my passion to share this work with other people. Right. Because I grew up, I was not a very good communicator. I was very passive aggressive, very judgmental. And because of these practices, my relationships, like, I have a really wonderful relationship with my husband.
[36:39.7]
I have a, you know, a great open way of communicating with my kids. My relationship with my parents has changed because of it. With my sister has changed because of it. And, you know, to be able to share, share these practices and see it happen for other people, I mean, that, that to me is everything.
[36:58.1]
It changes their lives and then there's a ripple effect and it changes other people's lives and, you know, it just continues. Well, I would say congratulations on bringing awareness through the trilogy series. Right. Thank you. Yeah, as well. And it's really an important.
[37:14.8]
So for my listeners, we'll have links to all of these books, on, the show notes below. So look down below and you'll see the links to Amazon. We'll also, have a link, to Cynthia's website, which I, I think it's just cynthiakane.com correct?
[37:35.5]
Yeah. Yeah. So that's C-Y-N T-H-I A K-A-N-E.com. just go there. You can learn more about her. And there's she, like I said, she is the founder of the Cane Intentional Communication Institute.
[37:53.0]
So if you have interest in hiring her services to work inside of your company, do, jot her note through the website, get in touch with her or look her up on LinkedIn. We'll have a link to her LinkedIn profile as well. Cynthia, pleasure having you on to speak about the trilogy series and to give us a little bit of the fundamentals of what we need to know about communicating and our negative self talk and really how to not be afraid of meditation.
[38:24.4]
So for those listeners who aren't doing it, you know, give it a try. But you got to give it a try more than once. It's something that you, you, you just have to go sit and be with it and don't think it's weird because ultimately in the end it's going to be just fine.
[38:41.9]
It's just you kind of have to let it seep in a little bit. So namaste to you. Thank you, Cynthia, again for being on the show a second time. Again for all of my listeners, the podcast that's out about her other book is now out there and it's podcast 215, the Pause Principle.
[39:03.4]
Definitely check that out because that was a wonderful interview as well. Thanks so much. Namaste to you. Have a beautiful day.
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Inside Personal Growth with Greg Voisen · Podcast 1195: From Ordinary to Extraordinary: A Conversation with Pattie Dale Tye on Career Growth and LeadershipIn this episode of Inside Personal Growth, host Greg Voisen sits down with Pattie Dale Tye, a seasoned C-suite executive, leadership expert, and author of Ordinary to Extraordinary. Pattie shares her journey from a small-town upbringing to leading some of the world’s most recognized brands, including AT&T and Humana. She offers valuable insights into career growth, leadership, overcoming imposter syndrome, and the power of generosity in the workplace.
Through her experiences, Pattie emphasizes the importance of embracing challenges, stepping out of comfort zones, and building a personal brand that sets you apart. Whether you’re an aspiring professional, a manager, or a leader looking to inspire your team, this podcast episode provides actionable takeaways to help you reach extraordinary success in your career and personal life.
Key Takeaways from the Podcast1. The Journey from Ordinary to ExtraordinaryPattie shares how Forbes Publishing reached out to her, believing her story could inspire others. She initially didn’t think she had a book in her, but she realized that success isn’t about where you come from—it’s about your drive, preparation, and finding the lane you were meant to be in.
2. Overcoming Imposter SyndromeOne of the biggest challenges professionals face, especially women, is imposter syndrome. Pattie highlights how men tend to apply for roles even when they meet only 70% of the qualifications, while women often feel they need 98%. Her advice? If you’re 80% ready, take the leap. Growth comes from stepping into the unknown.
3. The Generous Leader FrameworkPattie introduces the concept of generosity in leadership, explaining that leaders who support and uplift others often see greater success. At Humana, she learned that focusing on helping employees grow, rather than just personal achievements, led to a thriving and motivated workplace.
4. Embracing Discomfort for Career GrowthGreg and Pattie discuss how stepping into the unknown is necessary for success. She compares it to working out—at first, new challenges feel uncomfortable, but over time, you build resilience and strength. If you want to advance in your career, you must be willing to take risks, push through discomfort, and trust that growth comes from challenges.
5. Personal Branding and Standing OutIn today’s competitive world, a strong personal brand is essential. Pattie’s brand was built on generosity, leadership, and strategic problem-solving. She explains how professionals can develop a reputation that helps them stand out and attract new opportunities.
Learn More About Pattie Dale TyeTo explore more about Pattie Dale Tye, her book, and her leadership insights, visit her official website: Pattie Dale Tye
Connect with Pattie on Social Media:
- LinkedIn: Pattie Dale Tye on LinkedIn
- Instagram: Follow Pattie Dale Tye
- Buy Her Book: Ordinary to Extraordinary on Amazon
You may also refer to the transcripts below for the full transcription (not edited) of the interview.
Interview Transcipt -Not EditedEmailDownloadNew TabWelcome back to Inside personal growth and another episode of Inside personal growth, and this beautiful woman to the left of me, which you're seeing on YouTube, and if you're listening to this on SoundCloud, just go to her website at Pattie Dale Tye that's Pattie Dale Tye, and we're going to be speaking. If you would please hold up your wonderful book. Her book is, whoops, we missed her. She went out of the picture. There we go. It's called ordinary to extraordinary is the book. And Pattie, thanks for joining us on Inside personal growth. Thanks for taking this time, because I believe that everybody can be extraordinary, and it just takes a little bit of work and thought, and I'm going to let the listeners know a little bit about you. Pattie Dale is a C suite veteran with almost four decades of experience leading companies to new heights and course correcting businesses in need. She has extensive track record of success with some of the most recognized brands in the world. She spent over a decade with at&t leading Sales and Operations for the world's largest accounts. In her time with Humana, Pattie was instrumental in the company's multi billion Dale or large employer segment, embracing innovations in telemedicine and human is digital health platform, which I have a history in. Thank you for doing that. She is credited with returning profitability to the portions of the organizations that she worked with in the businesses, working in tandem with the CDC, Pattie spearheaded regulatory advancements in Medicare and Medicaid for Humana members. You can again learn about her her book speaking press contacts, and there's an assessment that I want to drive you to as well at our website, at Pattie P A T, T, I, E, D, A, l, e, t, y, e.com, that's the place to go. Hey, Pattie,
Thank you, Greg. That was awesome. Thank you so much. My mother would be so proud to hear all of that about her daughter. Well,
is your mother still with us? She's not,
but, but maybe she's listening in in any broad in another broadcast capacity. Yeah, she
is on another wavelength in the heavens. And so my mother is there as well. Hopefully she's feeling the same way about me. So thank you for that. So look, this book is, you know, when people come on and they've written a book, a lot of people out there don't really, don't realize how challenging and sometimes it is to write a book, and I want to honor you for that. So what inspired you to write ordinary to extraordinary, and was there really kind of a pivotal moment that led to this journey of wanting to write this book and wanting to express yourself through the book. Well,
I'm going to be really honest and say, I think it was a god nudge because I had not thought about writing a book. I didn't think there was a book in me, and Forbes publishing called me and said, We think just following you, you've got a story that others need to hear. And Greg, that story was, you can be a small town girl from a little southern place, and you can make it in a big way in your career. Meaning anybody can do this. You don't have to be Ivy League. You don't have to have a lot of graduate degrees behind your name. You just have to have the drive and get in the lane that you were created to be in and prepare, and suddenly you'll be there. And in my opinion, give back and bring people along with you all along the journey.
Well, the way you speak, what I've noticed from the beginning, when we first met, is you have a big heart. And I tell people, you know, if you led with your heart more than you did with your head, you would get more people to follow you. But a lot of people lead with their head and their intellect versus their heart and compassion. And you know, you emphasize the idea that most of us start in this 98% club. Could you elaborate to the listeners what this means, and why is advantage rather than a disadvantage? Because really, what you're saying is, well, it's only 2% to be that much better, exactly. Well I want I feel
stress over the fact that so many people get on social media and compare themselves in a negative way, and that is not the place to go for comparison, for striving, for aspirational goals in life, 98% of us are just perfect. There might be those 2% that are the super, super superstars, but it's okay if you are not a super, super superstar, you still deserve time on the stage time in front of somebody like Greg, who lets you tell your story, but you have to be you have to push yourself, prepare and get in your lane. I'll say this again and again, because everybody can't do everything extraordinarily, but there are things everyone can do extraordinarily.
Yeah, we've all got talents. We all have skills. We sometimes need to find them, and then we need to embrace them. Because it's one thing to say, Oh yeah, it is, but oh no, I've got to pay the bills. And I think if I was to tell anybody, I would say, take a risk. Be uncomfortable, get out of your regular routine. And so that brings me to how you define extraordinary. Is it a mindset? Is it a set of habits, or is it something else? Because hey, people use the word extraordinary all the time. They'll say, Oh, my experience was extraordinary, or it was phenomenal. So what is it when it comes to the humanness of an individual to be extraordinary to me,
Greg, it's, it's what sets you apart. So you there's a lot of ordinary to us every single day, but there, as you said earlier, there are specific talents that you have, aptitudes, is what I like to call them, that you have that stand out more than others in the same room. And that's where I want you to understand how to be extraordinary. You started our conversation today with such a rich compliment to me. You said, I can tell you are a business person that is, that is an extraordinary compliment to me, because as a female, a lot of times in my life, I've been discounted as being able to be a strong business person, but I kept after it, and I had a career that ended up in an extraordinary place. Why? Because I found what I was really good at and what differentiated me from the crowd, and that was where I built my expertise in my brand
well, and you've developed skills and abilities knowing that you needed those to play in that world with AT and T and other places in humana. And you know in that world, you didn't get lost in the fray because people saw you as having these skills and abilities, which is why they see the cream rises to the top right. So you mentioned that success is not just about personal achievement, but it's about lifting others up along the way, which obviously at Humana and AT and T and all these places, you know you have to do that. It there. No man is an island. No woman is an island. You can't do this alone. You got to have good team. How can people balance their own ambitions with the responsibilities of helping others? Because sometimes, you know, as a manager, because we have a lot of managers that listen out there, they feel overwhelmed, because they not only have their own workload, but they have the workload or the, what I should say, the spiritual side of helping others that come to them with problems along the way, right? Absolutely. I know HR managers always say, Well, I'm like the My door is a rotating door, and normally HR managers are women. Yeah,
they're nurturers. They are helpers. They are they are let me tell me your problem, and let me help you. So I have, over the years, without being intentional about it, I have created a bit of a framework, and now I'm recognizing that through having written the book, through talking about the book, and that is the notion of generosity at the workplace, and generosity as a superpower at the workplace, or the generous leader framework. And I will say it this way, typically when the elevator door opens, or when you log into that first teams call you go into survival of the fittest mode right at work. You have to perform. You are there because if you don't show up, you might not have a job, you might not get a raise, you might not get a promotion. You are out for you, and I maintain part of my lovely, successful career that I really enjoyed was because I was very generous, and because I took any meeting, anybody asked me for for advice, because I sought people for Advice, generous people, because I people would weave their hands together and say, step here. And that taught me I needed to do that. I tried to think as much about what my leader needed that day, as what I needed, as what my team needed, needed. So it became this really healthy circle and and I think we could you all use a bit of that all use a bit of generosity in the workplace, take ourselves out of the center focus and allow ourselves to be of service to others. Not that I can shirk anything I'm accountable for, but that I can find time in my day, in my rhythm of life, to say, Can I help you with that? Or what are you struggling with? Or do you want to just go down the hall and have a cup of coffee?
Very good. I mean, I think that, you know, the cup of coffee, the walk around the building, or taking somebody out to lunch, these are the little things that allow you to get up front and per and be more personal. You know, I had a gentleman on here, you know, leave your phone at the door, because what happens is, you know, you're swiping, you're answering, text, your emails, you're not present. And I think just to take that extra time to be present is important now, a little bit of shift in our questioning. You know, under career growth and challenges, you talk about the discomfort of new, okay, yeah, we're, let's face it, the whole world is like looking at new right now. And there is a lot of, I think, angst and anxiety, and people are feeling challenged. Why is stepping into the unknown, such a necessary ingredient in your estimation for success. And how can people develop the resilience in in a way I worded this was in the moments, but really right now, it's more than a moment. It's really almost every day on all the time.
Well, I will go back. Thank you for that wonderful question. I'm going to go back to something you said just a minute ago. Put the phone down when you come in. I, I was listening to a podcast yesterday about the anxious generation, and we you and I in this generation of phones, we get distracted four to 600 times a day, and that that creates anxiety, right? Because I'm with you. And then, oh, there went a ding. I better go see what that is. And there went another thing. And I'm not focusing on the richness of what we're doing right now, and that's a terrible thing to waste. I think that it makes you anxious and you won't continue to risk. I think we're right now. There is a generation that is worried about taking a risk. You cannot move forward into an extraordinary career if you don't go into the unknown, if you don't accept that you are going to be uncomfortable. Newness brings discomfort. It makes your muscles sore, right? It makes your head ache until it's not new anymore, and once you get accustomed to that rhythm of reinventing what you're going through every time you have a new project, a new leader, a new person on your team, a new career, you'll get comfortable with that, and you'll Almost thrive in that first dive off the shelf, off the ledge into the new you'll grow your muscles. They won't be sore anymore. You'll have a mental resiliency, as you spoke of. So the way that I dealt with that, when I was getting accustomed to it, was really knowing myself, Why have I been asked to do this project and write it down? Here are my attributes. Here are the special things about me as to why I was contacted for this. And when I get nervous and fearful go, I go back and look at that sheet of paper and I say, Okay, I'm here for a reason. And as I quote a wonderful leader of mine, Gary Goldstein, this is a marathon, not a sprint. So take your time. Take a deep breath. You can do this. Somebody believed you could do this. Don't let that person down. Go do it. But be
good advice. And I and I think that the being taking discomfort to comfort. It's almost like the invisible to the visible. It's almost like the innovation process. You're actually reinventing yourself, and in the process of reinventing yourself, you're developing new skills. You're developing new muscles. As you said, Hey, your muscles are hurt, but it's like going out to the gym and working out and then coming back and doing again the next day, and by the third day, you're not feeling it that much anymore. So you know, as a woman in professional careers, you've taken some pretty big career leaps. You went from sales to executive leadership. What are some of the biggest fears that people out there listening today who would maybe like to make that jump from, let's say, sales to an executive position would need to overcome to feel, in this case, a little more comfortable, but I'd say even more So, more confident that they can actually do it.
So I want to talk about two things. And one, you're very, very familiar with imposter syndrome, and it's it's there waiting to howl at you very often. So I want to talk about that, but I'm going to start with the best way to have confidence in yourself is assessing and reassessing who you are, what your aptitudes are, what your strengths are, what differentiates you. Keep that dialog very present in your mind. I had a I was blessed to have two parents that did not underestimate the power that a child needs in knowing to be competent, being confident is an underrated gift that you have and that You can give. So keep that running tape of what makes you uniquely you. And then think about this role, this project, this new job that you've been asked to take on, and if you're 80% of the way there Go for it, this is an interesting dynamic difference, and it gets back to imposter syndrome between men and women. Men will look at a role description or a role profile, and if they've got 70% of the attributes, the qualifications, etc, they'll go for it. Women feel they need about 98.9% and that, to me, is because we imposter syndrome sits on our shoulder and pecks away at our confidence, and we just need to kick it off. We don't need to be obnoxious and egotistical and braggadocious, but we need to be authentic in in what makes us special. And if that lines up with the place you want to take this risk, jump off. Jump off at 80%
right? Great advice. And you know that imposter syndrome, we've had several women on the show who've written books about it, right? And you you bring up a really important point, you know, it doesn't you don't have to be at 90% to make that. You can jump at 70 50% if you feel confident. You know you one of the things that I think has always been inside of individuals. But the key is aligning it with their work. Life is their purpose, their passion, and you emphasize purpose, Papa's passion and preparation. How can one of our listeners out there today identify their true passion, and how does this translate into meaningful work? I've always thought that and and I've had people study getting in the flow, right? So I think first comes curiosity. After that level of curiosity, you can define a purpose and a vision for what it is you're doing, because curiosity is really the key if you're curious, like, if you're curious CEO or curious middle line manager, you're always trying to find a way to improve something, right? And then I say that from there, you can define the purpose and the mission and the vision and the passion. But then the goals don't actually come until after all that's done, right? What are the goals? So what would you tell somebody to kind of find this purpose and then resonate with it and then define who they are and who they want to become?
So I, first of all, I love that you bring up curiosity. I have a dear friend, Dr Deb Clary, who is is big into the curiosity study and how it impacts people at work. And she and I were both at Humana, and were able, and I wrote about this in the book, we're able to witness something called the curiosity continuum, and it is a vertical scale, and in the slap DAB middle of the scale is curiosity. And if I remain curious and lift my eyes up in curiosity all the way at that top scale is excitement and happiness and energy. If I become less curious or not curious at all when I get that new assignment, if I just grumble up about it, my mood is going to drop all the way to the bottom, and I might even end up depressed. So I believe in curiosity in a big way, and I'm very thankful you brought that up so I might have the tiniest bit of difference in how I came about. My purpose and yours might be infinitely more efficient. But my purpose revealed itself after I really understood my aptitudes, those things that I innately held and that defined me, and I became really good at those. And once I became really good at those, one of those was was helping in a win, win situation. So you called it sales. That's the traditional way of of naming it. But for me, it was bringing a solution that was Win Win to somebody with a problem that needed a solution. And once I knew that that is really what rang my bell, that I loved being able to find a solution in a win win situation, I suddenly became very passionate about it, and the more I did it in different fields, different industries, I knew that my purpose was around being generous with my with my mind, with my treasures, with my time, and helping people, Whether it's it's in career, whether it's in a personal issue, but helping them move beyond what was keeping them stuck at the time. Started out as a life insurance salesperson ended up, you know, right now, I hope I'm not done, but with a great book, A Forbes best selling book that is all about helping people move to their best and most extraordinary career life.
Interesting. You mentioned, I didn't know that about you as a life insurance Hilton, I was MDRT for 20 years and top of the table, wow,
that is awesome. And you know what your listeners need to know, what I know, what MDRT is, but million dollar round table, that's a big darn deal for 20 years.
It's the last it's is basically the top two or 4% of the people in the industry. But I play it down maybe too much, but it did take a lot of work to get there. You got to sell, you got to sell a lot of life insurance to get there. But before
you leave that, think about what you just said. You got to the top 2% so you were a 98 percenter, but then you found your rhythm, you found your your passion, your purpose, and you shot all the way up to extraordinary, into the top 2% that's exceptional. I
appreciate the compliment. Thank you for that. It supported my family for many years, and has been something that I've been blessed to meet lots of people and also help lots of families out.
That's it, and you help them. This is what I loved about that is my early training. Of this passion I would I would ultimately discover, is that you help them out and talked in a on about a topic nobody wants to discuss, but you did it in such a way that they understood this is something that will help you and help generations beyond you. So I know it's an uncomfortable topic, but it is a reality death and taxes. So let's walk through this together and look at all the lives you you changed.
Yeah, I think no matter what your age, but obviously as you age, you see your finitude. And I think that you know, as somebody my age, sitting here today is 70, you realize the need for that, right? And I think for people that are out there, and I'm not pushing life insurance, I'm saying you really need to look at how the people left are going to be able to manage their life if they were dependent on you. So there's my plug for what young people that need some term insurance. How's that? So look, many people kind of wait for the perfect opportunity you see it, they're kind of like, okay, I'm not ready yet. I'm not ready yet. How can they shift their mindset to create the opportunity versus wait for the opportunity?
So my father gave me such great advice, and it was the breaks will come. And he was so right, and he said that to encourage me to show up every day, knowing that the break could come, knowing that people were watching me and to be prepared every day. And I think that the opportunity, the perfect opportunity is rare, but opportunities are not rare. They will come to you and then you make it perfect. You make it fit your world, your life. But don't overlook that opportunities are coming by very often and do not miss one when it comes waiting for the perfect sometimes it's a lot of times in my life, it's been me that has had to make that opportunity perfect in alignment with what all I needed, and I and most of the time I was able to do that, weren't you, Greg? Did the perfect opportunity ever float through your window or your email or phone?
You have to be looking. You have to be diligent at looking. I also was reminded of your as you're speaking about an old Eastern philosophy tale, and I think if people can can look at it this way, they can see opportunity in a different way. And it kind of goes like this, the gentleman goes and borrows money to get a horse, gets the horse, the horse takes off, and all the farm people around that he borrowed money from said, Hey, you owe us all this money now. And the poor, the horse is gone, and he goes, good things, bad things. Who knows? Right? So what happens is the horse comes trotting back, but doesn't just bring himself, brings four or five other horses. He fixes the gate to the to the little pin where the horses are, and all the townspeople come. Oh my gosh, now you have five horses. We you only borrowed money for one horse, and he and with that, his son was in the pen, and there was a war going on, and one of the horses hit the sun and broke his leg, and all the townspeople said, oh my goodness, your poor son. And he said, good things, bad things. Who knows? And my point to that is, is when you look at what happens in life as good things, bad things, whose nose, some of the things that you think are bad are actually opportunities. And some of the things that you look at that are supposed to be those opportunities are virtually not what they're supposed to be, right? So I kind of have this philosophy that maybe you should look at some of the things that are occur adversely to you as an opportunity, because I think everybody's waiting for it to happen to them, wrapped up in a nice Christmas package with a bow on it, and it's gonna come and you're gonna open it up, it's not there. Usually. That isn't the way it occurs, and you know that as
well, absolutely right? And I love out of adversity, honestly, out of adversity or something really bad happening to me. I got the opportunity of a lifetime at Humana my last career because my role went away, and that's a terrible thing. And many of your listeners have probably had that experience. It's a very it just shapes your whole world. And I knew Humana was a great company, and they would help me find my next spot. But it still doesn't make the jar of that happen or that happening feel any better. But out of it, I took a role that was was perfectly crafted for me. I reported directly into the Chief Operating Officer, and we built this program called humanis, bold goal, and it was a career milestone for me so out of adversity, I'm a believer good things can come.
And that is because you can say good things, bad things. Who knows? The who knows is I don't really know, yeah, but you look at it as bad because you are now sitting in the position as you said, feeling despondent despair. What am I going to do? I don't have the job, but it's almost like God opening up a door and saying, walk through the new door. Go through this, this new door. Because the reality is, on the other side, is something better for you, right? And I hope people can look at it that way, and I know they're not saying to us right now, well, I think those two people on that podcast are crazy. Know where actually we've lived it. So we have lived it. We
lived it. And you know you also just brought up when the who knows, that's your curiosity again, if you will stay curious, what can I do with this? What
right now, you talk about people polishing their brand in your book, right? And you have a brand. I have a brand. You have a great website. I've got a website with podcasts. I've got five other websites as well. And you say, it's crucial, how can professionals develop a personal brand that kind of sets them apart? And I'll and I'll frame this this way, a professional could be somebody as you were in humana. That is like, this is the Pattie Dale brand. This is the Greg Voisen inside personal growth brand, what do you think helps set us apart from this crowded, noisy, crazy, unusual world that we live in, that people say, Oh, well, why do you have to have five websites? And I said, I don't know. It's because I let someone build them right,
but, but the each of those may have a special purpose, and to me, that's what a brand that's your brand identity. What at Humana, I felt my brand identity was to be a strong executive, somebody who was accountable to her number, her team, her leader and and showed up prepared. That was sort of my brand. I was, I was and I polished that all the time, because just one or two days of not showing up prepared one or two days of not being accountable to a number and missing it. And that brand identity is is it's falling down the hill, and I'm going to have to work hard to get it back up. So once you define your brand, you need to polish it routinely and and it's quite to me, it goes back to the simple message of Know thyself. What differentiates you? What do you when you look around the room, what makes you different? And if nothing does, go back to step one and Know thyself, because all of us show up with something special. What is your something special, and then make sure that you are able to illuminate that on a very routine basis. So where do you need to put yourself so that people see that brand identity I was known as a very generous part of the communities in which I lived, worked and played. I was on United Way, board, zoo board, etc, and that brand was instrumental in giving me that opportunity, Greg, that I just spoke of, that last best career move at Humana, because it involved taking our brand out into communities in a way it had never been presented in communities. And I was given that opportunity out of, you know,
50,000 people,
20 executives, because my brand identity was she's a great Humana executive who can speak and influence at a community level.
So Well, I think there are people that bring feeling, they bring emotion, they bring compassion. And I identify as you as one of those people. And I think if I was to ask my clients, why is they hired me? Because you know people, you know, if you look even in the insurance business, I used to have people tell me, and they meant this as a compliment, it wasn't a negative. Well, you know what? You're kind of like the undercover evangelist. They said, You're, the guy that comes in here and inspires our people for the group insurance, and inspires us and gives us more hope, right? And it was always be nice to be known for it, because it wasn't that doesn't, didn't happen at one client, that happened at many clients, that made me feel really good that people's like, hey, yeah, you know, you're bringing us some inspiration today. And actually, the name of my company is illuminate, E, l, u, M, I, N, A, T, E, oh, so I heard you use the word illuminate. Yes. Now look along the way, we're all influenced. And when I would go to MDRT and listen to all the great speakers, that's what started this podcast show cool. And I would hear all these people up on the platform speaking, and there used to be a guy by the name of Leo Buscaglia. He wrote about love, and he taught a class in UCLA about love, and that particular speech from the podium at mbrt really resonated me to this day, which was, I think, back in the 80s that I heard him speak, and it was about a young lady that sat in this big class of couple 100 people, because it was like the big stadium style classes at UCLA, and she didn't show up for one class didn't show up. The second class didn't show up. Third Class, and he asked all the students around her, it's like, Do you know where Anna is? And everybody went, No, we don't really know what it was. And he left an open door for people to come into his office and see. So then one person the following day came in. Did you know that Anna basically drove her car off the cliff and she committed suicide, and it was like, Oh my gosh, here you're sitting in a room with all these people now that pop that speech inspired me enough to want to make connection, to help people to, you know, reach out, talk to somebody, a neighbor, a friend, whatever. And here's the thing, because we're in a loneliness epidemic in this world, I've interviewed several people about books that have written about the loneliness epidemic, and I think you have a question that came out of this, which will help us wrap up this interview. You dedicated this book to those who supported you, and I say the people that support you are the ones that have the love, the compassion, the ones that are understanding. Who has had the biggest influence on your journey, and what did you learn from them? If it was more than one, I'd love to know who it is, but if there are a couple that stand out, let's talk about how important it is to have that support as you go through this journey. Thank
you. What a beautiful story and what a great question. So I'm going to name three, because I was only going to name one, but then you gave me a plural. I did. I the first would be Jim Murray, who wrote the forward in my book, and he was the chief operating officer for Humana, who hired me. And after he left Humana, he kept hiring me for more and more opportunities. He is one of those rare people in your life, but find them and and cherish them that saw things in me I didn't see in myself, and then be that for somebody else, right? Find those hidden talents. He, he, he was very great at doing that, not just for me, but for so many people. He saw in us what we didn't see in ourselves, and he put us in very uncomfortable places where we could thrive. That would be the first one. The second is my father, and he was a businessman. He owned his own business, which is a very difficult you know, entrepreneur. Entrepreneurials have a tough life, I think, but he gave me great advice always I've already told you about one of those, which was the breaks will come. But more etched into my soul is, is the way he ended every one of our blessings for breakfast or dinner every day after he was at the end of grace, he would say, and Lord help us to remember the needs of others. So I heard that twice a day for 17 years plus, plus, plus, and it was just ingrained in me that I'm always supposed to be looking outside of myself. But what else can I make better? Who else can I help? I love that. And then finally, the love of my life of 34 year marriage to my husband, Jim Tye, who has been incredibly supportive of my career journey. We have moved nine times over those years, and he has been super supportive every step of the way he he's just great. So anyway, I'm I'm his biggest fan. Those are my three.
That is a wonderful list, and I'm sure if we gave you more time, you could come up with a lot more. But I want to thank you for being on inside personal growth and contributing. And if you want to hold the book up to the side, then that way we it won't take up the whole There we go. Well, let's see it went away again. You know why? Because the background there we go, extra ordinary to extraordinary is the name of the book we have been on with Pattie Tye. Pattie Dale Tye, Tye E. You can reach her, as I mentioned at the beginning of this podcast, through her website, which is just your name, P, A, T, T, I, E, D, A, l, e, t, y, e.com, there you can learn more about this book. You can get this book. There'll be a link for you to buy it at Amazon. You also can check out the book at her website. Her speaking, what she speaks about, what makes her passionate. There, you can do the press, and there's an assessment as well. So Pattie, again, pleasure having you on it was a great taking this little journey for the last 45 minutes, just talking about your book and you and all the great things you've done in life, blessing to you, and thanks for being on inside personal growth. And
thank you, and thank you for what you do for the world, for allowing people a platform to come into and leave better than they walked in. So thank you, Greg, it was a honor. Was a true honor.
Honor is always mine, because I learn from every one of the authors that come on this show. So, and you're no exception. So thanks so much.
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Inside Personal Growth with Greg Voisen · Podcast 1194: Disconnect Now: Why Your Phone Is Stealing Your LifeIn today’s hyper-connected world, our smartphones have become an extension of ourselves. From social media updates to work emails, we are constantly bombarded with notifications, leaving little time for genuine human connection. But what if we consciously chose to disconnect from our devices and embrace real-life experiences?
On the latest episode of Inside Personal Growth, host Greg Voisen sits down with Howard Lewis, author of Leave Your Phone at the Door, to discuss the Offline philosophy—a movement that encourages people to step away from digital distractions and rediscover the art of meaningful conversations.
The Offline Philosophy: More Than Just a Digital DetoxHoward Lewis has built a unique concept around the Offline philosophy, which is about serendipity, spontaneity, and authentic human interaction. The movement began with informal offline gatherings where individuals from different backgrounds—tech entrepreneurs, artists, business leaders, and creatives—came together to engage without technology.
According to Howard, the issue isn’t just smartphone addiction; it’s the fact that technology has changed the way we communicate. Many people rely on texts instead of calls, or social media instead of face-to-face conversations. This shift has led to a disconnect in relationships, increased loneliness, and a loss of spontaneity in our lives.
The Impact of Technology on Human RelationshipsDuring the conversation, Howard and Greg explore how smartphones, social media, and digital distractions have impacted our ability to engage with one another. Studies have shown that excessive smartphone use can reduce attention spans, hinder social skills, and contribute to mental health issues like anxiety and loneliness.
Howard shares fascinating insights about:
- How face-to-face conversations lead to deeper, more authentic relationships
- Why people struggle with social spontaneity due to structured, technology-driven lives
- The importance of embracing randomness and the power of serendipitous encounters
- Why food and shared experiences are key equalizers in human connection
Overcoming the Fear of Going OfflineOne of the biggest challenges people face when trying to disconnect from technology is the fear of vulnerability. Many are so accustomed to digital validation (likes, comments, and shares) that they find in-person interactions daunting.
Howard suggests starting small:
- Leave your phone in another room during meals or social gatherings
- Plan an “offline” outing with friends—no screens allowed
- Engage in spontaneous activities, like exploring a new place without using GPS
- Look up, smile, and start a conversation with a stranger
By doing this, individuals begin to rediscover the joy of real-life conversations without the need for digital validation.
The Role of Businesses in Promoting Offline CultureA key takeaway from the discussion is how corporations and businesses can play a role in reducing digital dependency. Howard emphasizes that companies need to incentivize and reward employees for unplugging.
Here are a few strategies businesses can implement:
- Encourage “phone-free” meetings and events to promote engagement
- Offer offline incentives (such as extra vacation time for reduced screen time)
- Create an “Offline Hour” at the workplace for face-to-face interactions
- Host company retreats without digital distractions
“When you eat with people, you learn a great deal about them. The same applies to face-to-face conversations—it’s where real connections happen.” – Howard LewisWhy This Conversation Matters More Than EverThe modern world is moving at an accelerated pace, making mindfulness, presence, and human connection more important than ever. Howard’s book, Leave Your Phone at the Door, serves as a guide to help people take back control of their time, relationships, and attention.
Are you ready to take a step toward a more connected, fulfilling life?
Pre-order Howard Lewis’ book: Leave Your Phone at the Door (Releases March 4, 2025)
Learn more about Howard Lewis & his work:
Howard Lewis on LinkedIn
Official Website – Offline and On
What are your thoughts on going offline? Have you tried a digital detox before? Share your experiences in the comments below!
You may also refer to the transcripts below for the full transcription (not edited) of the interview.
Interview Transcipt -Not EditedEmailDownloadNew TabWelcome back to another episode of Inside personal growth. This is Greg Voisen, the host of the podcast and Howard, everybody knows me, but nobody probably knows you. He's written a book called leave your phone at the door. On the other end of the line from London, England is Howard Lewis, Howard, how are you doing this evening? Doing very well. Great to be with you. Thanks for having me on the show. Looking forward to sharing some of the offline philosophy with your audience. Well, we're looking forward to having you share that, and I'm certain that it'll resonate with people. The question is, how do we get it to stick right? In other words, it's one thing to talk about something. It's another thing for people to actually do what you think that they might or should do. And so I'm going to let them know a little bit about you. Howard Lewis, the author of this book, is a cultured, creative and curious and he brings a multifarious box of tricks to the table, according to his bio at his website, which all of you can get to his website. And he's going to be giving us additional ways to get to the book. It's called off and on, law and off and on.com Greg, especially, offline and on.com offline and on.com There you go, and we'll put a link to that in the blog so you could just click on it. You don't have to remember it. But over many years, he sent investment reports for private circulation that touched upon issues such as infrastructure, demographics and the vulgarities of markets. He's he is broadened his horizon by reflecting two upon the aspects of art market. So he's got a whole family art collection. He's really a quite an interesting man and life in general. But more importantly, started sending articles to friends, clients and Associates on subjects that were interested in, or which he felt they should be aware of. And the response to this was overwhelmingly positive, and which led to the genius, the genesis of offline so fundamentally the premises behind it is, you know, leave your phone at the door, get together with people, share, be spontaneous, and that's what he's about. Currently, he's passionate about art, books, football, travel, wit and wonder, and he's extremely part partial to custard donuts. He's so it's pleasure having you on Howard. And so let's kind of get down to it, because the book is like asking people to rethink how they work in their life, right? What inspired you to create the offline concept, and how has it really evolved over the years? You said COVID kind of shut it down, and you haven't been doing as many of them, but you certainly learned a lot from all of the events that you put on over the years. So what did you walk away from and what did you learn about this?
Greg Voisen
The first thing to say is that having hosted many events, both private and corporate, the one thing I've learned is that wherever you go in the world, people are fundamentally the same, just a bit different, and there's actually far more that connects people and separates them. And the problem, in a way, is that there's a tendency for people to label themselves and one another far too quickly, and therefore it limits them. And I was always very curious person, and in a funny way, what you reflected upon before Greg, the notion of simply sending articles was really nothing other than me to say to people, hello, I was thinking about you. That was all, nothing else. No, do anything. I wasn't asking for a response. It was just a simple reminder that actually you were in my my mind. That was it. And I was sent articles in a rather indiscriminate way. There was no particular patent, it wasn't so I did every week, and there were probably a dozen or 15 people in particular who I sent things to. They were particularly receptive. They were interested. Anyway, one day, I met one of them for a coffee, came to articles to read. He knew I sent articles to other people as well. Just wondered out now what everybody else was getting, and that struck a chord with me. I thought myself interesting. Why not bring together this group, 12 or 15 people, plus a few more, besides post up together, share articles and see where it goes. And as you touched upon, it was a great success. And I realized two things, firstly, that most people have a real appetite for information, for insight expertise, but I really want the time to distill the vast produce of material Exactly, yeah. The other thing is that food is great leveler, and when you eat with people, you learn a great deal about them. And I started doing this in a rather kind of haphazard way, probably every six months I do another thing that it just grew. I never advertised all word of mouth. But the one thing I do want to emphasize is that there was no sense of kind of creating a particular type of environment. All we really wanted to do was to bring people inside the tent. It didn't matter where they came in from, left or right. Above both the side. So Howard, were these people from all different social economic classes, or did you have just very wealthy I mean, look, you deal in art. So the reality is, people could be listening to the show going well. This is a very wealthy art dealer, and his family has a very wealthy art collection. And you know, when you look at the pictures at your website, it's very elegant where you were holding these parties. So you always wonder, it's like, Was this just for the rich and famous, or was this for everybody, but for everybody, everybody, even you got to come Greg, if you're in town. Now, the short answer is, I didn't care where people came from. I didn't care how much money they had. I didn't care about their gender, their sexuality, their religions, and they're interested in at all what I care about very much that they were givers. I would say givers, people who were open and curious about other people, people who were interested learning fresh perspectives. People could take a little bit of a chance in life. And I can tell you that the range of people who came some quite prominent nothing to do with our people in politics, people in business, in tech, in fashion, people running a charity. You could be a librarian, you could be an academic, you could be retired. I didn't care to pay for a ticket and I would mix them all up. Some people may have known each other a bit. Some people I never seen before myself, that sense of randomness and serendipity, where you're not entirely sure quite how it'll go, who you'll be sitting next to what will happen next. And over the course of the evening, I would share a bunch of stories touching on the offline philosophy. There's really, as you said before is a celebration of the virtues of randomness and serendipity. Too many people, sadly, in the modern world, are far too prescriptive about what they do, where they do it, with whom they do it. Yeah, it's crazy. People have always lost any sense of spontaneity or even the idea of just changing your mind or doing it differently and offline, really encouraged people, in a sense, to be themselves. What I did, really, in a nutshell, was I gave people permission to be vulnerable. And I would start by saying, Yeah, I am reliably hopeless, and many things, many more things than you would imagine. But so what I'm here? I'm hosting the event. There are 30 people in the room, all smart, engaging, interesting, whatever they meet, whether you're having a landscape garden, whether you're a calligrapher, whether you're running a bank, I don't really care what you will do. What I care is you give when you're present and you're engaged, right? Not everybody's gonna necessarily be the greatest conversationalist. Some people take time to warm up. Some people a little bit cautious and shy. That's also fine, what matters, but over but over the years, Howard it worked. And so I think the listeners would learn a lot about if you shared a moment or a story where embracing this randomness kind of led to some surprising or meaningful experience. So let's say you've done these events. You leave the event and you're saying, Wow, that was a great evening. I got to meet a bunch of people. The question is, is, what kind of things happened after the people had these serendipitous events where they either connected, they did something together, they worked for a charity, they did something meaningful in life for themselves, something changed. What kind of stories do you have from that? Look, I have multiple stories. I think what I was going to do actually, is I would touch upon two stories, which actually didn't occur at a dinner at all, but they actually did touch upon the nature of randomness and serendipity, and it was an element of surprise. So going back to your original question, yes, multiple people became great friends, did business together once you had affairs. Fine, it wasn't my business. But the short answer is, actually there was no there was no consequence. Somebody put me very, very well. A guest who came a few times, she said to me, one of the reasons it works is because there's no agenda. There's no outcome. You know, let's just bring together 30 of people in a room for dinner, and they will make their own magic. And I was just there as a kind of prop to come and facilitate and make it happen. There were numerous people who, I mean, I know that one person in particular did a ten million deal based upon something he met at the one of those, for example, bench capital. I'm quite sure what business was. Many people collaborated, met separately, together or individually. I didn't ever keep track, because it wasn't really about having a club or a membership. I didn't really care what happened afterwards. Sometimes what did happen, which was great. I actually mentioned this in my occasion, in the book, people who've come to different dinners, who had no connection with one another at all. I brought together separately. So I remember there were three people I knew, all involved in tech and AI and neuroscience. I just got going very, very very well. Yeah, it sounds, it sounds like a lot of fun. And I think that, I think the key is the serendipity, the joy, the bringing these people together in an environment that allows them to be vulnerable. Like you said, they'd be open and vulnerable, but you, you argue, to kind of the technology often dulls the ability to communicate. We said, hey, where does this book fit? Does it fit in communications? Does this to fit in self help? And really, truly, it is about communication. And what we found is, you know, a lot of people hide Howard behind text. It's like, okay, I can text this person. I don't have to call them. I don't want to I'm going to text them. What are some of the practical ways people can reconnect with their natural communication skills, because these devices that we all carry, this little thing right here, okay, does frequently get in the way of us taking the time to have a meaningful dialog conversation with somebody. I think you see that that's right. I think there's a separate issue, which is actually that people have an inability to simply engage in the most basic way, even down to things like saying please and thank you to people right looking people in the eye when you talk to them, the complicated, smiling. You know, smiling is a very powerful emotional tool. Yeah, people actually do not exercise it enough. It's not as though people say, I'm not gonna do that. I gotta go and study how to smile. It should be. It should be. It should be a natural sensation. But the reality of that is that there are a lot of people who are very, very unsure of themselves. And one thing I've learned certainly is that many people are far more concerned in what may go wrong than may go right. In other words, okay,
Greg Voisen
even without to the etiquette of kissing somebody. Do I kiss on one cheek? Do I kiss on two? Do I start on the right or on the left? Is it maybe three? If I'm shaking somebody's hand, do I let somebody else go first? Because they're older, and I want to throw to them, it gets very confusing to understand what is appropriate, what everybody else is doing, what you did last time. In a way, one of the challenges of the technology is that people have forgotten how to engage in a regular way. It's also something like, we're talking about some incredibly complicated movie. It's also, you would say, you know, that I've never had that idea before, what opening the door for somebody, or maybe looking behind after you've gone through maybe somebody will pay you a compliment. Maybe some people very appreciative. Maybe they'll do it themselves in turn for somebody else. But these are always small ways in which one can interact and engage. It's not requiring anyone to have a deep, meaningful conversation. Just get the basics right. And I just feel that is actually a very simple starter pack. Well, one of the things that you had mentioned in the book is that our society today has become so reliant on smartphones. And you said, you know, for validation, but you're, you're saying that if we go offline, we can break this cycle. So the big key here is in breaking the cycle is embracing this randomness. But I do think some people have a fear of being vulnerable in groups. What would you give the listener out there who's there today saying, hey, look, I don't do really well, and just going to random parties with somebody, and they have a fear of showing up to be themselves, because they have they are thinking about, well, I've got to put on a certain suit. I've got to look at different a certain way. I've got to be whatever it is that I'm doing. How do you break all that down for somebody? Well, I think there are two things to say that, first of all, offline has a duality to it. Also, on the one hand, it's the opposite of online, but offline is also about wandering off the beaten track, just taking a different path, just taking a different route on your way to work. It will maybe deciding I'm playing tennis in the afternoon or morning. Nothing very radical about that. I don't think it's necessarily the case. If I feel worried or vulnerable because I'm with people. I don't know which is understandable. Some people are a bit more cautious, a bit more worried about the consequence. But I think what is important is, for example, I would say, go to a gallery or a museum with a couple of friends. If you find the conversations a bit heavy. You're not in the mood, you can wander off another room. You said, I'll see you in half an hour on the cafe, or maybe I'll see you around the corner. It's not that somehow you've got to do anything particularly remarkable. They always asking you to provide an exposition or some painting. But I think the idea that you can be social with it suits, and you can be separate when it suits, and at your own pace. That's within everybody's reach. I think some of these issues really are the way self imposed, the fear that something terrible will happen. You'll see something appropriate, and there'll be a thunderbolt from the heavens. You'll be turned into a pillar of salt. That won't be happening. Well, I think the idea to actually take, like you just mentioned, a different path to work, a different way to work in the morning, do something different, to break a pattern which you're normally in, because it will awaken you to what is out there in the world that's different, that you're missing, that you're not seeing. You said, Hey, I'm a very curious guy. Yeah, yeah, I can tell you're extremely curious, and I think curiosity leads to that passion, no matter what that passion is, that passion turns into a purpose. That purpose turns into a vision. That vision turns into some goals, and somebody go down the road, and that's what it is, but it starts with curiosity, and I love the fact that you said that because I'm an extremely curious person myself, always have been, on the other hand, for some of us who are so curious, like you and I, we have a hard time maybe making a decision, because there's so many things that we've attracted into our lives. We've got all this stuff that we that we love doing. In the book, you discuss the importance of being present and engage face to face, and I think this is a key point. How do you think the mindset impacts mental health and community building? Because, you know, like, this whole thing about going offline and being face to face and engaging is really, you know, we've done studies here in the US. I don't know what it's like in and in England, but I just had a guy on here called super psyched, and he wrote a whole book about the loneliness epidemic, the epidemic from our Surgeon General, is so bad here in the US that the mental health issues are not really good at all. I mean, suicide rates, all kinds of things. So let's just talk about that. Are you experiencing that same kind of thing in England? Look, I think it's a universal problem. I don't think there's any worse frankly, in England is in America or China or South Africa, really well, you kurti mentioned this is a universal problem. I don't know there's necessarily a universal solution. Some of these issues are rooted deeply in society. One of the problems you have, I think today, certainly in America and I think probably most of the developed world, is that the urban landscape has changed over the last 50 years. Once upon a time, people were out and about. Kids were playing on the street, mothers were around. There was a sense of a kind of a neighborhood. I think what changed? There's a very good book with your audience might be interested in dipping into by a fellow called Jonathan Haidt, who's an American I think he's like a psychotherapy it's called the anxious generation. And one of the observations he makes is that from around the 1980s a significantly greater number of women entered the workforce, and because they weren't always around to supervise their kids, they became almost over protected in terms of what they could do. When I was a kid, Greg, you know, I was growing up, I had sisters, and you know, my mother would say to me, okay, yeah, is 10 pounds, 20 hours, whatever, go off with your sisters and your friends to the park, take some money for a sandwich and a drink and come back when it's dark. I mean, today, unthinkable, right? Yeah, scaremongering about people who are lurking behind corners and what may go wrong? Yes, there's always that possibility. But I think what's happened is we cover an almost excessive wariness, and what it's done, in part, is contributed to children not playing quite as eight years, being inside more, not getting quite as much parental attention, and it has a snowball effect. So well, they're all they're all using technology to they're all on their iPad, or they're all on their their cell phone or their Android device. And you know, you see people go to dinner here, and I'm sure it's the same in England. The kids are sitting there on their devices, and the parents are eating dinner, and they're eating dinner separately. They're not communicating. Well, I think to myself, the problem there really is with the parents. The parents, unfortunately, are, in many cases, rather weak and rather lazy. That's an example. They're not consistent. They expect that they can behave in one way, and their children can't follow suit, which is wrong. You know, children, to a large extent, young children, mimic their parents behavior. If your mother is on the phone the entire time while she's cooking and she carries on looking while she's serving dinner, in a way, it becomes a part of everyday life. It shouldn't be. The problem with the phone is not so much the phone itself. The problem is, unfortunately, the profus of these apps, most of which have no value, particularly at all. You can live your life very happily without them. And it's this idea that somehow, if I stop looking, if I stop updating, if I stop following, I will become less and less relevant. The truth of matter is, nobody really cares where you become more or less relevant people. So with their own lives, it becomes like a self imposed problem whereby people convince themselves, unless they are active, unless they are engaged, somehow they'll simply fall off, and people see them just bring into the abyss, never to be seen again. It's crazy, crazy. So some of these issues, I mean, actually, on this subject, there's a very interesting article which I recommend to you, Greg and also to your audience, just come out in a magazine called The Atlantic, which is an American publication. It's called the anti social century by a protocol Derek Thompson. And I read it the other day, and it touches upon many of these themes, the number of restaurants in Chino which are thriving, but they're thriving our takeout service, right? Because people order, they pick up themselves or get a driver to collect it's taken back to their apartment or the house, and they eat behind closed doors, no doubt, watching technology all evening as well.
Greg Voisen
Now, well, I think sometimes Howard too. And I don't want to speak for the people out there, but if, if they give their child an iPad or an iPhone or whatever it might be, it also is a way for them to decompress with. It becomes the babysitter, right? It's like, Hey, here's the iPhone, here's the iPad. Go ahead. Go off, Junior, do your thing, because I need some downtime, because of the compression of the world that we seem to be in under time constraints to do all of these things, right? And so that is a challenge. So what are the biggest obstacles that people face, emotionally, physically, from disconnecting from technology. And how do you think, meaning, Howard, after having gone through all these dinners that you see something like this thing opening up and communicating with one another can be extremely beneficial for them. What would you recommend? Well, again, I think one doesn't want to be too rigid at mass. And I think you know, everybody, to some extent, has their own comfort zone, you and me included, and that's fine. Not everyone with us at all. I'm not stressing somehow that one engages in some radical and very dramatic transformation. Some of these moves and changes are quite incremental. Something once a month. I'm not stressing something out here tomorrow morning, you completely rebuild your life? No, of course not. But I think it's about really taking baby steps. I think you see that one I say interesting. Just to kind of, uh, touch upon this, I hosted dinner years ago, and a lady came. I didn't know. She went and asked about me in the newspaper. She approached me, said, Look, I love to come. She said, I'm running quite a size, which was totally over probably 10 million. Not insignificant. You've been outsourcing the business. She said, I got senior board. We're running away. All fine, but I want to be taken slightly on my comfort zone. I just feel in the same circle with the same people and the same conversations. I just want to be somehow stretching our familiar areas. I said, quite, great. Good problem. And I know because she told me. She said where she got there. She came twice when it came the first time she said, I was scared. I was really scared. I didn't know what's expected of me, how I come across. Could they pick up my accent? Was to do anything anyway, I kind of knew she's awkward and nervous. I put that some people who I knew were very good company and very easy to talk to. Anyway they go, chatting. She recognized somebody else from drinks before the wine is flowing. I'm telling a few stories. The evening progresses, and I see her halfway through the evening. Of a great time. I asked her about she said, you know something very interesting. I suddenly realized halfway through the evening I forgot to be scared. I forgot. Just slipped away. Yeah, nobody cared about which way she combed her hair or whether she had high heels. Although nobody's interested in what they were interested in is what kind of person she was, what she was passionate about in her life, what she wanted more of, whatever it may be, everything and nothing at the same time. And I think you see again, this is all about people taking elements of control over their own lives. Technology and a mobile devices have actually had the reverse effect. People are strangled by them, right? So let me ask you this, because frequently, when you remove these devices, and you create an awareness of the fact that the device may be having more control over you than you think. And then somebody actually like she just released and let go, and she became more of who she wanted to be, that she wasn't afraid anymore, she opened up. So my question is, really, do you believe that the people coming to your event, or people that going offline, from a spiritual standpoint, are having an awakening of their own selves, meaning their higher self? Do they do? Does anybody report to you like, Hey? This was I had epiphanies beyond belief about who I was and what I could be, and this was a wonderful experience. Or was this just, hey? I had a great evening, and that was it. I have to be honest to say that probably the latter, I mean, the old person may well have been spiritually gifted by the evening and how they somehow felt about themselves. I didn't actually ask the question. I don't think anybody actually volunteered. I certainly knew that there were many people who came back and they brought their friends, they brought their associates, they brought their children. I knew that without somehow taking a purely spiritual approach, I think the spirit of the event drew people in because, because there wasn't really much going on. When I sent the invitations out, it didn't say very much. Basically said, you know, comforted, I'm a 30 odd smart, clever people like yourself. I'll tell a few stories, and that's it. It wasn't a little intrigued, not quite sure what might happen, who you might bump into, which direction even you will take, what you might learn along the way, but might forget, I don't know. But all the while, you know, going back a step, you know, you made the point before there was a Dobby venue, and there are fine paintings and so forth. Yes, in a way, when you create an environment which is somehow visually appealing, anyway, it does take away some of the pressure. There's a distraction. There's a dig version. I think in a way people need to be a little bit more aware of what's around them. It's not that you could just think remarkable, but again, about the notion of being self aware, being familiar even down to the simple notion of asking somebody else who you don't know, do you like that picture? The environments? You held them in were utterly gorgeous. I could see pictures. That was my club. Yeah, beautiful, yeah, pictures. So questions. Look, we, many of the people listening to this are business people. They work in environments where those phones are required. Those computers are required, those iPads are required, whatever it might be for them to do their business. Do you think businesses and corporations really have to play a role encouraging people to kind of embrace the offline lifestyle? And if so, what would you tell a CEO today or midline manager or something about letting people kind of decompress from this and having open sessions like yours at work? So in other words, let's say we do an offline meet up at work, an offline dinner at work, and we say, Hey, don't bring your cell phones. Don't bring your iPads, don't bring anything. We're going to do that at work. Look, I do that anyway. I mean, obviously one of the conditions, in the sense of an offline dinner was there was no technology, you know, and I would say, actually, in front of every boy at the beginning, you got your phone on, put it away, turn it off, right? Didn't invite your phone. I invited you, and only you, and I want you to provide me and everybody else who full attention and respect for the event, and yourself and the room. Pay attention. Do not be distracted or sidetracked by, I don't know a football score or something your mother in your center. That's not relevant at that moment, right? I would say that there are many strands to this. I think that people need to be incentivized and rewarded for spending more time offline. There needs to be some tangible reason for people to change their behavior. Now, if I said to you, okay, I wouldn't go into the nitty gritty. How can you reward people in a really meaningful way, things they could never do ordinarily? Now, harking back many years, I wrote a special story in the book somebody I knew many years ago he was a brilliant salesman who really made his mark in the early 70s as a very young man working with Xerox. I don't know if anybody listening was involved with Xerox, and he said to me that as an incentive to the salesman, the top 20 grossing salesman, overview of book revenue. Will spend a week at the Playboy Mansion. And you can well imagine Greg. The competition was very fierce. One week always paid at the Playboy Mansion in Hollywood, wherever it may be. Now, if you provided that kind of incentive, you were so if you're saying for the people who are least active outside of central business? On their mobile you can't track all these things, okay? We're going to say, right, we're taking 10 people to the Super Bowl. You never go on there, or you probably go get a ticket. That's your incentive. That's your robot to change your behavior. That's, in a way, the kind of the reward the end of the life, or maybe, okay, music, okay, we are going to arrange a private jamming session with Taylor Swift, 50 people maximum from our corporation. Can go, that's a big incentive. Love music, I know she plays, right? This is very popular, yeah? Or maybe, okay, you say, hey, heavyweight boxing, title fights in Vegas, right? Yeah, there's a lot of incentives. You can
Greg Voisen
put it out there needs to be in a way given headline billing doesn't you can't have these things somehow as a footnote in the chairman's notes, people know to see actually they do change their behavior. There are significant wars. Now, you can do this on a simple level. I'm not stressing. You got to go to go to that kind of extreme all the time, but you do need to find ways. I think so. If you're a leader, how you lead, and you don't necessarily by being the most forceful or the loudest, even by being actually the most experienced. I think it's about really how you give people a sense of being a part of something. I like the idea personal on the web, taking a meeting in the park. Why? Why not? You know, bring a rug somebody else. Maybe bring a couple of bottles of wine, or sit down on the big oak tree and your chat about strategy or numbers away. We meet apart for now, we go for a walk. You come back, but taking people out of their comfort zone. Nothing way complicated, not very difficult, you know, but you learn. It's the way that relation reply said before about eating people. When you eat with people, you learn a great deal about them. Walking with them as a group. Also quite instructive in the release. If you don't enjoy the session or the company, enjoy the fresh air. Enjoy the sound of birds song. Be aware of what's going on around you. All these are very small, complicated, but they're all within your grip, all within your reach. Well, look Howard, you've had influences across your life, mother, father, brother, sisters, employers, people, clients, who've influenced you. And you know, it's very apparent to me and the listeners that you are a very spontaneous, outgoing, courageous guy. You have a lot to say about this. What is it that you believe, or who was it that had the most influence on who Howard is today and why Howard is so passionate about going offline so that people can experience more of the richness of life, More of the wonderment of life, more of the spontaneity of life. How were you influenced, and why do you believe it was so important for you? It's a really hard question to answer. Greg, I can't point to any one figure who somehow towered above everybody else. That wasn't really the case for me. I think, in a way, what I did was I just over a period of time, I became more sensitive to how the world was changing around me. I would say that certainly I grew up in the ground, but people were all relatively normal. I can't say anything strange or different or challenging, sort of but I would say that I grew up in the environment where people were quite competitive, where they were also quite structured. I realized long time that I wasn't really made that way. That's probably why you're fine. Dinner invites all the sun break, and that's why, again, you see, I'm very, very open. I think you see also, another thing I would say is, if you have a positive energy, you tend to find you are attracted by other positive things. And I will tell you two quick stories. One, actually last week, very quickly. So I was on the subway in London, and I was the compartment was moderately busy and the door open, and literally, about 25 school children all got on with a teacher or two, I think, as well. And it happened there was a seat spare next to me, and this boy, probably 1112, years of age, maybe Indian, sits down. Rachel George Lee turns to me and says to me, who's your day been so far, my dear, special and graceful. What about you? He said, wonderful. You said, we just come back from a school trip to Shakespeare's Globe. I know for aware that the original Globe Theater where Shakespeare space was born in sort of 1600 was reconstructed about 50 odd years ago. It's an extraordinary thing because it's built in weeks and sciences. I've seen it and they've been I spent probably three minutes talking as a kid about what he's seen and what he was impressed by. Then they all got off, changed, different trade, but I just want myself that was a very uplifting moment when you hear all around you, every other child is blue to a device. Here's a little kid. I mean, 12 years of age, open, interested, curious. This is what I had to say. Responded in what I would call a COVID, he was present. Now, that's a might. It's a very small thing. I'll tell you something else, which, again, was slightly different. So two years ago, I was in Brazil with my partner, and whilst I was there, a friend of mine, a Brazilian friend in New York said, By the way, whilst you're a Rio de Janeiro, just hook up with a friend of mine. I think you'll get on quite well conversation. Anyway, we've changed WhatsApp messages. We agree to some beach bar, and I don't know anything about anything this old black do, shuffles in, sort of the dots and T shirt, sits down, and two hours fly by, fascinating conversation. I used to go, subsequently, for a shape I was looking for a barber, so I was going back to my girlfriend somewhere else. He said, I'll take you somewhere. It's 10 minutes away, walking the street. And I didn't know anyone else at this point about his personal career. Father, he was a lawyer. I said, I got you a lawyer? He said, Yes. I said, What's your specialty? He said to me, constitutional law. I thought, Wow, I'm paying people doing matrimonial or real estate, whatever, constitutional law. I said, were you a partner in a law firm? He said, I was the public prosecutor. So, okay, keep talking. Okay, we're walking the street. Just, you know, traffic going by. I learned Subsequently, he appointed a member of Supreme Court of Brazil in 2002 by Lula, while first city does, when he takes office, he presses charges against 42 losers, entourage, money laundering, racketeering, corruption, intimidation puzzled away. I mean, a formidable operator in 2013 this guy is pointed president the Supreme Court was distraughting about this, the first black president, Supreme Court ever in history, and the humblest, warmest guy never imagined a million years away, and we think of friends, but you were the kind of guy that asked continual questions. You know, as a podcaster, I have to be somebody who is always thinking of the questions right? And what I love about you is you continued to dig a little deeper. And he was open and a little deeper and a little deeper. And I think you know this old saying, Howard that people don't care how much you know until they know how much you care. So I'll repeat that people don't care how much you know until they know how much you care. You're a kind of person that comes across with compassion, understanding, empathy. Not everybody's that way, but I will compliment you on that, and that is what makes up the Alexa that makes offline work. And I would, I would venture to say to my listeners that, if you became a little more compassionate, more understanding, more empathetic, chose to ask more questions, most people would be receptive and open. And look, this book is does fall under communication, right? And the way you communicate people is to have that depth of understanding, so that you seek to understand, okay, and then be understood, but you seek to understand and then be understood. And so this is the essence of leave the phone at the door. I want to thank you for being on this podcast, because you've given us a wealth to think about. Like, it's like, okay, what could I do now to change my life? I'm going to tell people, go to the website, read this book. Okay. Howard is going to give us some links that will actually take you directly to the book site itself. And it's been a pleasure having you on it's been a pleasure taking this time to get to know you, to get to know more about the book. I loved your personal stories because those are what make it. Any final words for our listeners, I think that everybody who is listening to this podcast right now has the capacity to change their life a little. I'm not suggesting anything particularly complicated, radical, challenging, different, the notion, as I said before, of simply walking on the opposite side of the road to the station is not a very difficult right? Yeah, I think it's about in a way, as I said before, but yeah, go to a museum with a couple of friends. You know, one thing I do occasionally as well bookshops. Go to book shop. Sometimes I don't see anything in the bookshop actually want to buy. But the flip aside is I know that every time is a bare minimum of the pleasure of being surrounded by other people who love books. And that's enough. That's enough. And I think you use that, in a way, as a mess up a lot of offline stands for I think it'll hold you in good stead.
Greg Voisen
Well, leave your phone at the door for all my listeners. Here's the book Howard Lewis, who's been joining us from London. Howard, Namaste to you. Thank you for being on the show. Thank you for spending time with our listeners the Greg May I thank you as well for so graciously inviting me and sharing my story with obviously, your community, and if I can help in any way in the future yourself or indeed, the audience more generally, please, don't hesitate to get in touch. I will certainly reach out to you. Thanks.
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Inside Personal Growth with Greg Voisen · Podcast 1193: Emotionally Charged Leadership – Managing Emotions & Thriving in the New World of WorkIn this episode of Inside Personal Growth, host Greg Voisen sits down with Dina Denham Smith to discuss her latest book, Emotionally Charged: How to Lead in the New World of Work. Leadership today demands much more than decision-making and strategy; it requires emotional intelligence, resilience, and the ability to navigate an increasingly complex workplace environment.
Dina, an executive coach and founder of Cognitas Coaching, has worked with top companies like Adobe, Netflix, and Dropbox, helping leaders harness their emotional strengths to improve team performance and well-being. In this conversation, she shares key insights from her book on how leaders can better manage emotions—both their own and those of their teams—to create a healthier and more productive work culture.
What Can Listeners Learn?1. The Emotional Demands of LeadershipLeaders today are expected to inspire, mediate conflicts, boost morale, and manage uncertainty—all while keeping their own emotions in check. As Dina explains, emotions have historically been ignored or suppressed in leadership, but they are essential data points that provide valuable insights into decision-making and interpersonal dynamics.
2. Recognizing Emotional TriggersOne of the key takeaways from the podcast is the importance of self-awareness. Leaders often face emotionally charged situations, and recognizing their own triggers—whether it’s stress from time constraints, team conflicts, or high expectations—is the first step in managing their reactions. Dina offers practical strategies to respond rather than react, allowing leaders to remain composed and effective.
3. The BRAVE Framework for Emotional RegulationDina introduces a simple yet powerful framework to help leaders down-regulate intense emotions in the moment:
- Breathe – Deep, controlled breathing helps calm the nervous system.
- Recognize – Identify where emotions are showing up in your body.
- Accept – Acknowledge emotions without judgment.
- Verbalize – Label the emotion to reduce its intensity.
- Engage – Move forward with a clear and intentional response.
This method is particularly useful for handling difficult conversations, making high-stakes decisions, or managing stressful situations at work.
4. The Role of Gratitude and PerspectiveA surprising yet powerful tool for managing workplace stress is gratitude. Dina explains that taking a moment to reflect on positive aspects—whether it’s a small win, a supportive colleague, or a learning experience—can shift your mindset and enhance resilience. Instead of focusing on worst-case scenarios, leaders can train their minds to visualize success and reframe challenges as opportunities.
5. Time Management and Avoiding ‘Hurry Sickness’One of the biggest stressors in leadership today is time pressure. With increasing workloads and constant deadlines, leaders often feel overwhelmed. Dina shares insights on how to:
- Prioritize ruthlessly – Not everything needs immediate attention.
- Communicate effectively with upper management – Leaders need to manage up by setting realistic expectations.
- Learn to say no – Taking on too many responsibilities leads to burnout.
She also discusses the importance of creating time to think strategically, rather than constantly reacting to tasks and emails.
Final ThoughtsIf there’s one key lesson from Dina’s insights, it’s this: Emotions are valuable data, not distractions. Leaders who learn to understand, regulate, and leverage their emotions will be better equipped to navigate uncertainty, build strong teams, and sustain their own well-being.
To dive deeper into these strategies, check out Emotionally Charged: How to Lead in the New World of Work, now available for pre-order on Amazon.
For more insights and resources, visit Dina Denham Smith’s website.
What are your biggest emotional challenges as a leader? Share your thoughts in the comments!
You may also refer to the transcripts below for the full transcription (not edited) of the interview.
Interview Transcipt -Not EditedEmailDownloadNew TabWelcome back to another episode of Inside personal growth. This is Greg Voisen, the host of inside personal growth. And joining me from the San Francisco Bay Area is author, Dina Smith. Dina, Good day to you. How are you doing? Good day. I'm great. How are you I'm doing wonderful. And it's a pleasure having you on Luis. Luis Velazquez was the gentleman that introduced us. He was on the show, and for all of you who don't know who he is. I guess you guys are kind of colleagues and know each other from the coaching arena, and he did a great podcast with us on his book about resilience, so we'll make a reference to that as well. And I always appreciate the referrals. So Dina, I'm going to let the listeners have an idea of who you are. Before we dive into the book itself, we are going to be talking about her book called emotionally charged the subtitle of that book is how to lead in the new world of work. Actually, she doesn't have a copy sitting in front of her, nor do I, because it's, it's a new book. It's going to be released here in February, correct? Yeah. So she's excited. I'm excited for her, because I know what it's like to get a new book. So Dina is an executive coach to senior leaders and teams at world leading brands such as Adobe, Netflix, gap, Dropbox, Stripe and numerous high growth companies. A former business executive herself, she's the founder and CEO of say it for me again. I don't want to mispronounce it. Cognitas coaching and helps leaders with their and their teams reach new heights of success. She's written over 60 articles for Harvard Business Review, Fast Company and Forbes on leadership and career success, and is frequently featured in international media outlets such as Wall Street Journal, Business Insider, Newsweek and the BBC. She's an author of this brand new book, which is Oxford University Press, 2025 as we said, how to lead in is, well, it's called, emotionally charged how to lead in the new world of work. Well, we're everybody who listens to this podcast, from all of my LinkedIn listeners, to anybody that's out there, the 1000s that do listen to this, the new world of work has been upon us for a while and and it wasn't just COVID. I think a lot of people say, Oh, well, you know, COVID is what changed it? Yeah, it changed the dynamics, I think, a little bit Dina and the way in which we work remotely, and now we're seeing more people come back together again. So really, what motivated you to write emotionally charged, and was there any personal experience or any pivotal moment that inspired this book's creation. I know you want to disseminate this knowledge to the listeners and to the readers, but was there anything in particular for you?
There were actually sort of multiple factors that came together sort of somewhat simultaneously that motivated the creation of this book. And first, I would be so fully remiss if I didn't mention that I you
have a co author, and that was my fault. I should have said her name. And yeah,
no, it's okay. It's okay because she's sort of integral to the story, so I will give her all of the kudos she deserves, but my co author is a person named Dr Alicia Grande. She heads up the organizational psych department at Penn State, and she and I together wrote an article for HBr called the emotional labor of leadership, and it went absolutely viral and and, you know, it becoming more and more aware to me that the whole emotional life of a leader was something that was really under recognized, under acknowledged, all of the demands that exist there in the emotional realm, and that was really validated by the extreme reception that this article had.
Why do you think what excuse me for Aspen. But why do you believe at this point in history, you know, we look at this 2024 23 whenever you wrote it, that this really charged audiences to want to read that and understand more about what was going on with the emotions of leaders.
Well, first off, you know, largely the audience was leaders, and you know, I believe they finally felt seen like what it's like to actually walk in the shoes of a leader, like the demands and expectations that exist for them, that that really are squarely, sort of in this space of managing their own emotions, as well as managing the emotions in the workplace, like They are chief architects of of sort of the emotional culture of their team and all of this, it doesn't exist on their job description. Like nobody talks about this, and this is such a critical element of their ability to succeed. And we're not really. We're not talking about just emotional intelligence. But if you think about what leaders are expected to do, right? Like rally that team to, sort of, like, burn the midnight oil so they can get that project done. They're expected to sort of help a team member who is struggling with task related and now even personal challenges, right? If there's conflict on the team that can't get resolved. They're they're sort of expected to step in and soothe tempers and and navigate that conflict. Um, they're expected to inspire. They're expected to reduce uncertainty and and reduce stress levels so people can be productive. And they're expected to manage their own emotions while they're doing all of this. So there's just, like, such an abundant amount of emotion work that leaders are expected to do. And, you know, as you alluded early on, like the pandemic changed things. But what I like to think about is it really accelerated, you know, trends that were already occurring in in the workplace, yeah, um, and so. So what we have, though now today are far higher demands and fire, far higher expectations on leaders, many of which are like, kind of pulling on their emotional resources.
You know, it's, it's interesting. It's listening to podcasts that we just broke yesterday with Vern Harnish, got a company called Scaling up, and it's a, it's a big operation for helping companies scale. And he was making a comment Dina about the culture of a company and how to keep people emotionally, I would say, high, engaged, you know, like, hey, you know, some of these companies, like, every Friday there's a there's a dinner, right? We get together together, you know, personally, we go have a barbecue. We go do these kind of things, which we've known for a long time, but I think then the, you know, he used an example of like SpaceX, so when the rocket went up and came down and landed, how emotionally charged the people were to actually have a huge win like that, Right? And I think part of this is about, how are people getting these wins, and then how frequently, and then, how is that keeping them engaged in the work they're doing? So what do you think from your own emotional journey? Because, look, you've been there, you were working your own company and so on, has influenced the themes and the tools discussed in the book.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, my gosh, if I kind of go back to my own emotional journey, and I don't think it's too unique, and by that, what I mean to say is there were a variety of different kind of factors that led me to believe that sort of, you know, emotions really didn't have, like, much of a place for me, like earlier in my career. So, you know, I kind of grew up in a traditional family. You know, productivity and performance were like the way that you
got this expected, that's, that's
the way you got noticed. And so kind of started to equate that with with worth, you know, by nature, just sort of a driven and high achieving person, and then, you know, as a leader myself, I was a management consultant, and then kind of rose through the ranks of leadership and in a few companies. And what I what I learned, and what I came to truly believe, is that being professional is about being calm and cool, composed, confident at all times, you know. And I really honed that ability and gained, like, a big source of pride out of being able to, regardless of what was going on in my personal life, you know, to kind of like rise above it, like, push all those pesky emotions out of the way, and, like, get the job done, and get a gym job, like, get it done, you know, in a in a way that was sort of unruffled and cool on the surface and, and so you kind of take all of that together, right? And I think there's a lot of leaders with sort of similar backstory and similar experience and similar learning through their career journeys and but as a as an adult, I started to do really, like, more work on myself, and I came to realize how much I was missing, how much like critical information I was missing by ignoring my own emotions and the emotions in my midst and and so I really embarked on a journey of learning to sort of understand my emotions, understand the emotions of others, how to Use them to sort of like influence situations for good and and now, I mean, right, look at me. I'm sort of like this flag bearer for acknowledging and respecting and and bringing more emotions into the workplace. And so it it has. It has been a journey, and much of what I've learned along the way, both through my own work as well as a really critical element of this book, is that every tool and strategy we share is backed by science. They are proven. And, you know, all of this has come together in in this book. And you know, we share it out so that leaders can really, and I take better care of themselves in terms of leading effectively, while managing their well being and and helping those around them. Yeah,
we you. You bring up so much, and I like how you articulated that. And yet, in that cacophony of things we're talking about, because leaders today are, I think, dealt with so much more to deal with than previously, meaning the quantity of things that they've got to work with the expectations, the everything that's there. So it's a two pronged question I have for you. First, what is emotionally charged mean to you? It's kind of the critical concept. And how do you recommend people approach emotions like anger, fear, uncertainty, especially when they feel overwhelmed. And I want to say the word overwhelmed and underline it, because in today's work world, we're talking about the world of work there has been, and I don't know if you just redefined work and said, Well, we're not going to call it work anymore. I mean, there's people out there now talking about different ways to name what it is that we do today, but I think for most people, it still is work because that's where they go to hopefully fulfill their purpose. Hopefully. I think that's a that's a charged question, come away with some level of meaning in whatever it is that they're doing. So emotionally charged. What's it mean? And then what are you going to help people who go off the rails here, being overwhelmed or uncertain. Well,
we're going to help them not go off the rails. Let's start there. Okay, but so emotionally charged really has two meanings, and it's why we were so sort of excited about it for our title is, you know, the workplace of today is more emotionally charged. Emotions have always been part of the workplace, but now there, I think the volume has gone up on the emotions that are there, and for a couple different reasons, and it goes back to the way in which work has changed. So for example, we are even though, yes, JP Morgan just called everybody back to the office five days a week, and we are seeing more return to the office. There is still a lot more work that is being done remotely, and it on very distributed teams. These two things lead to more misunderstandings between people, because you do not have like the in person contact as much, which helps us read all the emotional nuance that's there. We have more diversity in the workplace, which is wonderful. But when you have people that have sort of very different like backgrounds or perspectives, there's naturally more conflict, right? We also live in a more polarized world. We have more information around these macro events that sort of differentially impact people that are bleeding into the workplace. And so all of this has really raised the temperature. Secondly, emotionally charged refers to the fact that leaders are really charged with managing emotions in the workplace. So it really has those dual meanings, sort of the nature of the workplace, as well as sort of defining an element that's so critical to leaders roles so that's emotionally changed.
And what are the tools that you give people in the book that can help them navigate this whole complex world that they're dealing with, which is not only their own emotions of fear and anger and uncertainty and I mean, look, the list goes on and on and on, but are there some very poignant things that you could point out that would be extremely valuable for a listener today. I mean, you even said yourself, and I was going to ask you, you know, you went through this kind of journey, but you also ended up being certified through the Hudson Institute. And I know the way they train coaches, it's in particularly you must have had some major insights as a result of having gone through the Hudson Institute's course. What year was that for you?
Graduated at Hudson in 2016
2016 Okay, so much has changed for you since that, I would presume, yeah, yeah, yeah,
yeah, yeah, yeah, um, so, so, to kind of go back to So, to go back to that first question right around tools, I think one of the things that's really important to understand about regulating emotions, Whether it is your emotion or the emotions of others, is different tools, right? There's a lot of different tools, and our book is is chock full of them. They have different use cases, right? So in our book, we talk about, what are the strategies that are most effective for before you go into like an emotionally charged event, what do you do when you're in the event and you get triggered all of a sudden, right? Because this happens. And then also, what do you do after an event, like when you are completely drained? How do you recover effectively? And then there's a whole nother section with tools that really relate to some of those situations that leaders find themselves in frequently these days, like having to deliver bad news, like another organizational change, for a changed fatigue team, or a layoff, or supporting a team member. So anyhow there, there there are a ton of tools, but I think one of the most important things to know is, like, these different tools have different optimal times to be used. But if we were to take one example, would you would you like to do that? Sort of like, just take one use case and and break it down a bit? Or where would you like to go? Yeah.
I mean, you're as you're speaking. It's funny. I'm I did a recent interview with Dr sikumar Rao, who has the Rao Institute, and, again, huge coach, almost like a Marshall Goldsmith. And he told the story, which you probably were told, good things, bad things. Who knows? Right? And I think it comes down to particularly kind of perspective, you know, in other words, when to keep yourself out of be emotionally charged. And you can tell me if I'm wrong or right, it's the mindset that I bring to that at the time I come into that knowing who's going to be in the room, how I can manage my emotions, that kind of thing. So if you want to break it down, I would like to have that, because I think that would help the listeners, sure, sure, sure, sure.
So yeah, you have, you have hit on something that's really important and can especially be effective as you're preparing for an emotionally charged event, like, if you look at your calendar as a leader, you know you might inevitably see like some meeting you're kind of dreading later in the week, right? And so what do you do in advance of that meeting? And getting yourself in the right mindset is a piece of it, right? So oftentimes, when we're facing something that we're kind of dreading, we may distract ourselves, you know, knock off like tasks, not really spend the time thinking about it. What is the best mindset going into this meeting? The one that's going to be most effective? And what we know from from from years and years and years of research is there actually are a couple things you can do to get your sort of mindset in a way that will help you optimally in that meeting. And I very much subscribe to that philosophy that you're talking to bad news, good news. Who knows? Right? Because none of us have a crystal ball. But specifically, what? But the science is, is showing is, is visualizing success, right? Many of us go to worst case scenario, you know, we're gonna go in, the whole thing's gonna blow right, like we go to worst case scenario, that is, that's like, sort of the survival mechanism in our brain, like being like on high alert, but actually visualizing success and thinking about the potential positive outcomes is a far more effective strategy before a meeting. You know, a second thing that can be most effective again, instead of going to worst case and playing that out, you know, pondering what are potential solutions, like, what are ways I could go about this, and really trying to, like, tune into sort of creative ways of thinking about it. And then last, but not least, and it may be one that that is least natural for people as they're moving into a situation where you know, perhaps they're meeting with somebody who you know they've had conflict with, or whom they just really don't like, whatever the case may be, is thinking about gratitudes. Like, what am I grateful for? Like, what is this op? What is what's the opportunity here? Right? What's actually good about this situation or this person? Those three things can help you move into a mindset that is far more effective for handling the event that you're anticipating. And so there's a few more strategies too, that kind of that will help people before emotionally draining events. Um, but you can see how that mindset piece like that's really, really great before an event, um, during the event itself, if all of a sudden you find yourself angry or overwhelmed, different strategies are going to be most effective. And so we really break this down in the book, like, there's a whole chapter about what to do before there's a chapter of, like, what to do when you're in the midst of, like, getting triggered at you know, so, so you get, you get the drill, like, different, different things at different times. I do
believe the gratitude one is a big one. I also know that people are are big on gratitude journals, but I think, and I'm going to make a statement here, and I hope people understand you don't find gratitude. Gratitude finds you and you become gratitude. Hopefully that's not too deep, but the reality is, it's always great to do the journals and to have the gratitude, but you have to learn how to let go. And that brings me to this whole thing that we haven't discussed, which is time, the time, the issue of time. We've said time several times during this interview, but I think leaders today who get emotionally charged are frequently charged by a time constraint, some constraint that's been put on them to deadline on a project. They have to renegotiate the timeline because they can't get it done. The team isn't performing it as expected. What would you do to help people deal with this linear thing that we've created as a society, which really, I know it is really big inside of corporations, and it has to be yet. On the other hand, when you start to look at your I don't want to say it your finitude in life, where you might ultimately end up the timeline doesn't make as much importance as the experiences, what you experienced in the journey along the way, what you learned along the way. So what might you help listeners put time in perspective, or at least be able to renegotiate those timelines with upper management or people so that they're feeling more comfortable. Because if there's one thing that causes stress, that's probably it,
well, there's a lot to unpack. There time feeling as though you don't have the time, which can be a very legitimate feeling is a stressor, right? And and leaders are constantly being asked to do things more quickly, to do it more quickly with less, to do more, and it absolutely contributes to that feeling of overwhelm and stress that that people are carrying around, there was actually an article, it may have came out today, even in HBr, and it's all about being Hurry sick, right? Being that in that constantly hurried.
That's a good that's a good title. I'll have to look that one up. Yeah, yeah, because I think there is a lot of hurry sickness, not just in leaders. But the reality is, if a leader is responsible for a group of people, yeah, more, more time constraints,
yeah, yeah, absolutely. And there's a few different ways I think, to approach this and in the work that I do with leaders, right, like it is all customized, because what makes one challenge, you know, difficult for one person. There may be other things, kind of like standing in the way of solving for an issue for another person, and so we would need to, like, dig under, you know, what makes it really challenging for them? Because sometimes there's, like, blocking and tackling elements that are that can be helpful, like ruthless prioritization and managing up and things where you know they're
how do you how do you help? Dina, sorry for this, but I think one of the things is the amount of tasks a leader takes on. How do you allow them to gracefully say no? Because the reality is, when the plate is already full and they're spinning all these plates to try and keep them in the air, and they drop one or two or whatever, that's not good for their emotion. On top of that, to have too many of those plates spinning at the same time is very challenging, so they have to know when to say no gracefully. What would you basically advise them on saying no? Yeah, yeah, I actually
wrote an article about just that. It's called how and when to say no to your boss. And first off, oftentimes your boss has no idea how much is on your plate. They're also not thinking about the potential trade offs, right? So you can spin all these plates and do most of them that call it like a B level, average, or you can knock it out on the park on a few more, you know, and I strongly believe, if you don't have the agency to be picking and choosing exactly what you and your team are working on, then you need to sort of develop the skills and the practice of strongly managing up and laying out for your leader, like the short term and long term consequences of that amount of of expectation right lots of times these expectations are getting cascaded down from the CEO into the C suite, down into the SVPs, and, you know, functional leaders and and down they go and, and They're not right sized. They're not they're not necessarily realistic. And when you start to kind of lay out the trade offs up, you typically can get a lot more support for either delegating to maybe another team that has additional resources, deleting certain tasks delaying not everything needs to happen right now, right or additional resources.
And it's so important what you're saying. And I think, you know, I don't want to gloss over it, but we have a lot else to cover as well. But I think as long as a leader can put time in perspective here and make the time available. I think it was at Franklin COVID. Stephen Covey used to say, put this note, these on the door. I'm thinking, right so and you can close your door. So the question is, is, how much time are people actually getting time to think, meaning strategically, a little more methodically? It's like it's they should be asking, why for many of these things, why is it that we're doing it? Because sometimes I think someone comes up with another good idea says that we're going to go charge after it. It maybe comes from top management. It sends it way through the organization, and the end, there's zero support, because they haven't really taken the time to see where it is, right? So, you know, you you mentioned these emotional triggers in the book, and we've talked about some of them, people, circumstances and events. How can listeners identify the triggers, and what steps can they take to respond rather than react? Because I think, look, that's always like, let's take a deep breath, ah, before I say anything, so I don't put my foot in my mouth. And I think that's a great one. Yet, on the other hand, I'm sure you have other ways to help deal with the triggers. Yes,
absolutely. So let's start with identifying the triggers. This should always be a work in progress. The the the the issue, I would say, in part, and one of the main drivers for this book, is that, especially here in the Western world, we really kind of over rely on our heads. And we've got three centers of intelligence, right? We have our head, which is great for thinking and logic. We have our body, which gives us so much feedback if we tune into it, and then we have our emotions, which, again, provides so much feedback and data as long as we acknowledge them.
And so I do, where do you sit? Dina on spiritual intelligence. I've actually had people written full books on the whole spiritual intelligence side of things, which it would really be more round intuition. But I'm going to just say, look, some of the greatest leaders that have been cited, from Steve Jobs to Bill Gates, have said some of the most important things that they took into meetings was truly their intuition right and strong sense and cultivate right. And to me, that's as close as I can get to bringing some level of spirituality into it as a spiritual intelligence, because they call it S, I, E, I, you know, it's got, we've got all these letters associated with it, right? Do you address that side of the emotional No,
no? And I know that. I know that's been a focus for you in your in your work, and
some Somewhat, yeah, I'm just saying I bring it up because it has been something where people actually have scores for it and tests for it, and, you know, there's, it's been, it's out in the world, and it's out there, and I know it's there. So going back to these triggers, yeah, what? What can our listeners? I'm going to just say, what can they do?
Okay, well, first, they do need to identify their triggers, right? Yeah, yeah, and we talk about that in the book, but it is about connecting sensations in their body with their emotions. So you can think about really backwards engineering, and, you know, situations where you've let's, like, lost your cool, or gotten really sad, or gotten overwhelmed or had some other intense emotion. What, what I encourage you to go back is to go back and think about, like, what was it, you know, what were the factors that contributed to that feeling, and where did I feel it in my body, right? Because over time, you will build up this incredible repository of self awareness of of the sensations in your body and how they connect to emotions. And why this is important is because your body is your first warning sign, right? And when it comes to really strong emotions, we typically want to, you know, moderate them,
your gut feeling. That's one of the big areas where people get emotionally charged. Yeah, is they have an upset stomach, or they have something going on, but it that's why they call it a gut reaction.
Yeah, yeah. Like, for example, for me, I know, you know when I feel like my core starting to tighten up and my like lungs clench like, I do know it's time for me to breathe, because no matter, like that is the best course of action for me, because I'm mad, but I'm going to say something I might regret, right? There's like, there's the potential for that, and so, because I've spent a little bit of time, doesn't take that much time to do this, to sort of just think about, like, Okay, what was that? What triggered me, and where did I feel it? I have all of this, like, I've got, like, an incredible advanced warning system now, which, which can be incredibly useful, but, but, so let's go, let's go to the second part of your question. Like, let's just say you have been triggered. Like, what do you do? Because there are events at work, no matter how much time we spend meditating or, you know, strategizing around how we're going to have a good day and make make the day great for everyone around us too. There are events right that come out of nowhere. They're unpredictable. They feel as though they endanger you in some way, and your trigger, boom, there you go, right? And like you mentioned, breathing is actually it is a great strategy, right? Because it helps you through your vagus nerve, through exhaling more, through longer exhales and deeper breaths, you down regulate your parasympathetic nervous system. So, So anyhow, it is a great one. But we have a whole acronym that we developed that is sort of a suite of things for down regulating, and it's, it's the brave framework. So B is for breathing, um, R is for recognizing, and that goes to, like, where am I feeling it in my body, right? This is a, this is a deeply grounding thing to do, right? You are turning your attention elsewhere. You might call it strategic distraction, but you are turning your attention inside, which is grounding for people who are still trying to like, get that mind body connection, even distracting yourself just rubbing your fingers together and feeling like, oh, I can feel that like this will ground you in your body, and again, reduce that emotional response. A is for acceptance. So often times when we feel something, we invalidate it, or like, go away. Like, I can't deal with you right now, as opposed to just accepting that your emotion is real and valid in the moment. And v is for verbalize, which is choosing a label for the emotion. I feel angry, and that's okay. These things really bring your prefrontal cortex more online, right? And so your brain, and it's super simplistic and but it works like a seesaw, like the more you're engaging your sort of frontal lobes, the less your emotion system has a chance to override it.
So these are four different tools. You forgot E.
Well, E is engaged. So e is engaged. So like, once you have
so to have identified it, you breathe, you identify. And they may identify out the emotion, accept it and then engage.
Yeah, and you don't need to do all four steps. All four steps is great and literally, maybe will take you 30 seconds. However, just employing like one of these strategies is better than none.
Well, that little acronym is great, and I'm glad you had an opportunity to articulate that, because I think for the listeners look, sometimes they're looking for quick fixes, little things that they could do. And if the book brings them, you know, like you said, it's filled with tools, but the reality is, it gives them an opportunity to choose what they want to do, learn what what they can from the book, take it away and apply it to their daily lives. And I think that's one of the keys to having a successful book, is if I could take and this is my question for you. So if listeners here today were to remember just one lesson from the book, what would you want that lesson to be? And can you articulate it or tell us what you'd like them to take away.
One of the reasons why I think emotions haven't gotten sort of like their respect and their due in workplaces is because there are still a lot of myths and myths misconceptions about their role and value at work. And so if I were to think of just one thing that I would want listeners to take away, it's that emotions are information. They are data and and there is unbelievable utility for both your effectiveness as a leader and a person and your well being when you tune into this information source and use it. And so our book contains all of these different ways for tuning in and then using emotions in ways that are effective and healthy. And so, you know, it's just emotions are information like and I think all good, all good leaders would not ignore data. So, you know,
well, I think, I think it's a, it's kind of a feedback loop, right? It's like, I have this data, and that's how we grow. And that brings me to, kind of my last question here. You know, you've matured and grown, you've gone through all these coaching courses. You've helped hundreds, if not 1000s, of people kind of navigate this environment, this emotionally charged environment, and looking back, what advice about emotions and growth would you give your younger self?
Yeah, gosh, you know, I wish. I wish I'd paid attention sooner rather than later? Yeah.
I mean, too, I feel the same way.
Yeah. I think I missed out on some really useful information that could have helped me both lead myself and lead others more effectively earlier on, I don't even know what that information is because I didn't pay attention to it.
Well, you weren't aware of it at the time. Now you're very much more aware of it, which makes it much more valuable. And that's what you're trying to let people know, is awareness is where it starts, and that's the first important thing, is to realize that something's charging me. I need to understand what it is, and I need to learn how to deal with it, versus brush it under the carpet, and when it comes back up again, I don't know how to deal with it again and again and again and again. So the psychology that's in your book is extremely important about how to deal with emotions, and I want to guide my listeners to you know your website now that they have a an overview of the book. It's just Dina and it's, it's Dina. Dina Smith, Dina, I'm sorry. Dina D Smith com, it's Dina D smith.com that's where you're going to find the information about the book, her executive coaching, program, team development, articles, case, libraries, the new book itself. There's a whole page dedicated to the book. And if you go there now, you can order this book on Amazon. It's going to release on February 18, and so you can go for a pre order copy. So definitely click the button to either Amazon or Oxford. I have a feeling most people will click the Amazon button, and if you want to speak or get in touch with Dina herself, because you have an engagement, or you have something you'd like to speak with her about, or services. There's a contact there. You can reach out to her and get in touch with her. Dina pleasure having you on inside personal growth to share about your new book. I'm know it's going to be a big success in all those people that read it, it will help them a lot. You've spent years working, studying and understanding what it's like to be emotionally charged. And you and your co author, it's Alicia, and pronounce her last name, I want to make sure she gets credit, grandi, that both of you guys. I wish you much success with the book and much success in your consulting practice and helping people. More importantly, yeah, thank you very much. It was great to talk to you. All right. You take care.
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Inside Personal Growth with Greg Voisen · Podcast 1192: Reinventing Yourself & Breaking Free from Career Quicksand with Glenn LlopisIn this podcast episode of Inside Personal Growth, Greg Voisen sits down with Glenn Llopis, a best-selling author, leadership strategist, and Senior Advisor to Fortune 500 companies. They discuss his latest book, Make Reinvention Your Superpower: Six Skills to Escape Career Quicksand and Revive Your Future (Buy Now).
This conversation highlights the challenges of reinvention, the loneliness epidemic in leadership, and how to rediscover purpose in a constantly evolving world. Whether you’re a professional seeking transformation, a leader navigating workplace challenges, or someone feeling stuck in their career, this episode provides valuable insights into personal and professional growth.
What You Will Learn1. Recognizing When It’s Time for ReinventionMany individuals experience career stagnation but struggle to identify when it’s time for change. Glenn Llopis explains the signs of career quicksand and how to recognize when reinvention is necessary.
2. The Six Essential Skills for ReinventionLlopis shares a structured framework from his book, breaking down the six critical skills required to successfully reinvent oneself. These skills are designed to help individuals adapt, grow, and thrive in uncertain times.
3. The Loneliness Epidemic in LeadershipLeadership often comes with isolation. The discussion explores why many professionals feel disconnected and how to build meaningful relationships and a support system to navigate the challenges of leadership.
4. The Balance Between Standardization and PersonalizationOrganizations often struggle to balance structure with individuality. This episode examines how leaders can create work environments that foster both efficiency and personal expression.
5. Why Unlearning is Just as Important as LearningGrowth isn’t just about acquiring new knowledge—it’s also about unlearning outdated beliefs. The conversation delves into why breaking free from old habits and mindsets is crucial for true transformation.
6. How to Ask for Help Without FearReinvention isn’t a solo act. Llopis emphasizes the importance of reaching out for guidance and finding mentors who can provide the support needed to make meaningful changes.
Key Takeaways Reinvention starts with self-awareness and a willingness to change.
Leadership can be isolating, but building the right network mitigates loneliness.
Career quicksand is real—knowing when to pivot can save years of frustration.
Personalization in organizations leads to higher engagement and productivity.
Unlearning old patterns is necessary for meaningful progress.
Seeking help is a strength, not a weakness.
Get the Book & Follow Glenn LlopisFor a deeper dive into career reinvention and leadership strategies, get a copy of Make Reinvention Your Superpower (Buy Now).
Follow Glenn Llopis: Website
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LinkedIn
YouTube
For more insightful discussions, subscribe to Inside Personal Growth and stay updated with the latest episodes that empower you to grow personally and professionally.
What aspect of reinvention do you struggle with the most? Share your thoughts in the comments!
You may also refer to the transcripts below for the full transcription (not edited) of the interview.
Interview Transcipt -Not EditedEmailDownloadNew TabHappy New Year to everybody. This is Greg Voisen from inside personal growth, I have Glenn yo piece on the line joining us from. Where are you joining us from? Glenn from Holly Springs, North Carolina, just 15 minutes outside of Raleigh. Wonderful area. I've been there. He moved from Southern California to there. How long ago? Three years ago. Three years ago. And I met Glenn in 2010 at a conference he was putting on at Chapman University for business people. We did an interview about his book earning Sarah serendipity in 2010 we've done three others. This will be the fourth. And we're going to be talking today about a book that I think actually given the times we're in, given the New Year that people are in, it's called make reinvention your superpower, six skills to escape career quicksand and revive your future. There you go. Now, Glenn, you have a long background, but he also has a podcast show, because you guys can see it says on air, sitting in his studio, and I'm going to tell the listeners a tad bit about you. If you don't mind me doing that, are you good? No, whatever you'd like. I'm here to support you. Greg. I appreciate you. Okay, so he is a Cuban American, best selling author, speaker, Senior Advisor to Fortune 500 organizations providing guidance to different industries over 15 years back in 22 only two years ago, his book then was unleashing individuality, which explores how to unleash the power of individuality in the age of increasing conformity. And he also is a leadership strategy contributor to Forbes, and he has articles have been published in Harvard Business Review and Entrepreneur Magazine, and you can find more about him. One thing I want to say about your new book, Glenn, is that this is a really how to book. I just want to tell my people, look, there's exercises in here, there's QR codes. You can download a little workbook guidebook. We and I, he and I were just speaking about that ahead of time. The QR code goes to this little workbook that you should download and use with the book. And Glenn, you know, you and I, prior to this, were just kind of bantering back and forth about, you know, where we are in life, and I was being very vulnerable. And I want this podcast at the beginning of the year to be a new way for maybe me to even break my egg open even more, right, and be more vulnerable to the audience. And I think this book asks the questions to know yourself. You know, who are you? Meaning to my listeners and even to me, right? Because we go through this life, we get caught up in all the hustle and bustle and flow. We take very little time to do this. This book will have you sit down and be thinking about that. So reinvention is a really interesting word. And I think when you whether you're individually or you're a corporation and you're reinventing yourself or you're an individual, there's a lot of similarities that go on in analyzing where you are, where you want to go and what values you want to stand for, for what vision you have, and you emphasize reinvention is continuous process of learning. Agreed. You know, I've been doing this show now. This is my 18th year with 11 185 podcasts, and I've used it as a learning platform for me and hopefully the listeners. And you said it's learning and then it's unlearning. Ah, that's the big one, because our subconscious mind is so powerful that frequently getting in there and unprogramming. And then reprogramming is one. Then one of those is, are you enough, right? It's a big one for men, women and everybody, so and then it's relearning. You say, How do you personally identify when it's time? I think I might know the answer to this one for reinvention, because usually when corporations reinvent, when individuals reinvent, there's some big pain that actually triggers reinvention, whether it's loss of Money or it's not being satisfied. I even said this this morning in a training that I did, I said, When do people most change and then, hopefully frequently change for good. When they got cancer, they had a heart attack, they had a near death experience. Something hit them pretty hard. I don't think we have to wait that long, do we? Glenn, no, we don't. And that's first of all, Greg, thanks for having me on again. Always enjoy your show and appreciate all you've put into it for others to learn from so thank you. You know this is a big question. We know it's time when we feel suppressed. Simple, how do we know we feel suppressed when we feel like everybody has defined who we should be, rather than ourselves, and we reach the point where we just feel so disconnected with reality, our well being is at an all time low, and I don't want to use the word stuck, even though I just shared it, but you've reached a point where you just don't feel as if you add any value to anything anymore. And I've learned through my work over the past 17 years, Greg, that, you know, we've spent a lot of time following everybody else's advice. We have spent a lot of time being told to follow everybody else's playbook but our own. But yet, in this process, we've lost ourselves to the point where nobody really knows anybody anymore. I mean, I've never experienced a time that is the most opportunistic in modern history, but yet a time where people feel so alone, and that sense of loneliness comes when you feel like you don't matter anymore. And this happens because we've given everybody else so much more power, so much more importance than we do ourselves. Now I know that when we were preparing for this interview, you wanted me to go deep and vulnerable and throw it all out there, so I'm gonna just get this thing started. Since you had mentioned that this is the your first show of the year. May I? May I answer one thing real quick. Sorry to interrupt. You're bringing you're bringing up. And I want this to be a dialog. Importantly, you know, about four or five weeks ago, a gentleman from Silicon Valley, Dr Adam Dorsey. He wrote a book called super psyched, and he's done all this, I want to call it counseling, plus research on loneliness. Now we've heard from the Surgeon General, we've got a loneliness epidemic, right? You and I, I just said to you, hey, being a CEO of a company is frequently lonely. That's one of the words I use just five minutes ago, before we came on the air that you know, I'm running a business, you're running a business, and it can be extremely lonely. I'm addressing not only the CEOs of company, but everybody else in the company who feels this tension right now. This this tension to perform in a certain way, because that's what's expected of you, whatever it might be. And I just want to say to you now, sorry for interrupting and putting that in the middle, but I think that it's important that this loneliness epidemic, because that's where we This triggered me when you said it is so huge. What are some of the anecdotes Do you believe we can do, individually and collectively to get moved through that? I mean, I'm going to get there. I'm going to get there, but I want to, I want to continue with this thread of thought, because I'm not just speaking with you now, Greg, I'm speaking with all your listeners and and so as I communicate this, I want to know that I'm saying this on behalf of all of you, that this level of suppression, this level of isolation and loneliness, it's the worst it's ever been. Why? Because in the past, there's always somewhere we can go to a book, we can read a playbook, we can follow an employer or a friend that can guide us, but that doesn't exist anymore, and why doesn't it? This is important, because there was a time where we cared about each other, and over time, what's happened is we've become this zero sum game society where for someone to win, someone has to lose, and then it's accelerated to the point where now it's about how people value based upon what you have, not who you are. So what does that mean that it's all of these things that surround us, that create a perception of who we are, the car I drive, the home I have, you know, the books I sell, whatever is that people find a value, and then we chase that, but in the at the same time, what we do is we are running away from who we are, because we continue at an accelerated rate, battle the gulf between assimilation and authenticity. In other words, we put more value on being what other people want us to be, rather than what we seek to be ourselves and what's happened now, and we know why this has happened. I mean, we could say social media, all you want, technology. I even think AI is going to do a lot of this in the future. But the point is that we are so lost that we don't know how to reboot ourself. People think, well, that costs money. No, it actually doesn't cost a dime. What it cost is time. But I want to give all of you an example of what I went through. Right to go through something like this? Because, you know, I've often, I've often said that I will never advise somebody of something if I haven't experienced it or done it myself. I agree, no, well, I'm glad you agree, because that's not the world we live in. We live in a world of self proclaimed experts, all these thought leaders, and we make the assumption that just because it works for them, it works for us. That's not true. That's how we got into this mess, because we felt that it because it work for you? It's going to work for me. And that doesn't work that way, much like corporations. They've learned the hard way too well. If Tesla did it that way, then we must if this company did it that and they call that benchmarking. And what that's done, it's created in an environment of mediocrity, because if all you're doing is trying to copycat what everybody else is doing, and trying to do that with different people in your organization that's different from everybody else's that you're copying, you're coming to the realization that you have been in isolation yourself, because even you don't know what to do and so well, do do speak about Just pardon me again. Sure. No, go ahead. No personalization outbreak, your podcast, yeah, is about this. It sure is. It's exactly what we're talking about. So for my listeners, if you want to hear good podcasts, I was listening to one just prior to coming on with Glenn, go to the personalization podcast, personalization outbreak, I think there's 120 episodes. You got a long way to go, buddy. You know what I've learned is that I will never reach your epic proportions, but I will reach enough for what people are hungry for exactly. I was listening to one you were doing with Hispanic woman. It was interesting about, you know, you look at the culture and the population and so on, what I do want to say, and again, I hate for interrupting, but you're bringing up so many great points. And I want to make certain that the audience not only gets our message, but gets it in a very meaningful way. So you in the book, you mentioned, reinvention is not a solo act. So this is asking for help. I have this little thing that pops up on my screen and it said, it's okay to ask for help, right? And I think part of you know when you say about these mentors or these thought leaders who set these examples, and it's not for everybody, everybody listening knows there's probably four or five people in your core group you can go to ask for help, okay, hopefully you've got those people, right, somebody you really trust, somebody you respect, somebody you honor. So how can leaders and individuals effectively? And in this case, I wrote one about a corporation, but I'm going to say even individuals. How are we best going to re reach out, ask for help, and feel okay about that. Glenn, okay, well, I'll share that story that I mentioned I was going to share earlier, and this has to do with one thing, you have to face your truth, period. You have to face your truth. And I am convinced that people know their truths, but I'm also convinced that it takes a lot for someone to face theirs. In fact, as I was reading that, I wanted to if I may, get getting down to authenticity here, I want to read something I received yesterday from an individual and tell me if this sounds familiar, Alright, tell me if this sounds familiar. And, oops, that's not it. And I, obviously, I wasn't prepared to share, find it. Just find it. Give me a moment, because I think it's, it's worth the time, because this is, I think, a message that everybody can agree with. So I'm going to give it 15 seconds if I don't find it here, it is, got it. He said this. He said, Glenn, this is Torrance from the men's group. So I'm part of a men's group because I've I myself have faced my truth, and I'm seeking for help myself. Happy New Year. Hope all is well. I just started reading your book. Make reinvention your superpower. I wanted to share that the career, career quicksand portion of the introduction hit me so hard, and it was so spot on that it made me emotional. This really shows me the true power of our group. The feelings and emotions stated in this section are feelings I have kept buried deep within myself, feelings I would never want anyone else to know, because I have always wanted to maintain a front that everything is just fine. Now, I think we could all relate to that. Yeah, and so I share this because your reality is nobody else's reality, and no one can really understand what you're really going through, but you do because you're the one feeling it. So what happened four years ago, I declared that I was a workaholic. My admin, Sandy, sent me on a plane. I went to Arizona, and I spent five days at a retreat. They said, Glenn, why are you here? And I had three answers. One, how do I disconnect? Two, how do I care less? And three, how am I going to last another 45 years, at least for my then five year old daughter to get to the point? Let me see, if I give you a visual, imagine. This is what they told me at the very end. They had me shake a snow globe, and they said, Glenn, shake that as hard as you can, and you could envision that snow snow globe. They said, Glenn, this is what you walked in with. Your mind was clouded, just like yours and everybody else's that came here. And most people, Glenn, live their entire lives that way. And what you've done is you have faced your truth, and now that you've accepted and have found your answers to your questions, which I'll share momentarily, you are ready to move to the next phase of you breaking out of this, this, this addiction that you have at work. So how do I disconnect? I have to connect more with myself. How do you care less? You need to care more about yourself. How am I going to last other 45 years? Follow those two things, and I can tell you, I have followed them as hard and as smart as I can for the past. You know, since I got back, why is this important, I had to confront my truth, and it really boils down to one thing, are you really looking for your own happiness? Are you going to spend your entire life comparing yourself to other people that have nothing to do with your happiness? And I think this is where reinvention comes into play and why it's so important, because it's not a solo act, Greg, but you don't earn the right to go with along with others until you've been honest enough with yourself to be able to share your truth with others, because no one's going to want to want to be part of your reinvention team unless they know why they're there and why you've even asked them to be on the ride with you. So I share this because part of reinvention not being a solo act. It begins with the first three parts of this book. You have to discover who you are, and I'll go into that later. Then you have to know, based upon knowing who you are, how you're constantly adopting an always open learning mindset. And then it's time to pursue but it's not until you start pursuing this on your own can you then bring others along. So I share this because part of it not being a solo act, is the fact that you've taken the time to know what what matters to you, and now put yourselves on a trajectory where you can start rebuilding your network and really knowing the people who can be part of your team moving forward. Well, you you said something really interesting. You know, you said you were addicted to work, and you said, shake the snow globe. And obviously that's the way you came in. Not very clear about your truth. Who Glenn was right, and I wasn't clear why I was working all the time. Now I understand why. So here's my point, when an individual, whether it's an individual little older in life, mid life, wherever it might be, in their stages of life, have a cloudy snow globe, right? There's fear, there's discomfort about changing. How did you address those issues, because, look, you are stuck in that game for ship from 2010 to 2021 I guess, right, you've been in. You finally gave it all up and you went to North Carolina, and you were a workaholic. I knew it from the beginning. I knew it when I saw you in 2010 you were like, going 1000 miles an hour, dude, and it was just from observation. But that doesn't mean I wasn't going 1000 miles an hour too. So the way I look at it is, how did you disengage, Glenn, to actually observe yourself. You observing self and saying, I want to i i say this many times on this show, if a video camera followed you back in 2010 and you watch the video camera back, would you have liked what you saw? Then the question is, now that the cameras following you in 2024 What did you change and what's different about what the video camera sees? Yeah, very good question. I think your observations were right on. I mean, you would have seen someone that almost is twitching, someone that can't wait to get to the next thing do the next thing achieve. The next thing want more and more and more. And, you know, we often refer to that as the the hamster wheel, right? But what you would see in 2025 is someone who is unafraid of unknowns, who is more relaxed, still passionate, but someone that knows himself and knows that I have nothing to prove to anyone. And there's something very powerful in feeling that way, because I'm not competing against anybody anymore. I'm not trying to be more than what I've accomplished. Look, when I wrote this last book. I dedicated it to my daughter. You know, why, Greg? Because I'm 58 years old. I may not be around for another, you know, 50 years, but my legacy is done. I mean, this is not about me. I've always got into this business because I was here to create future legacies, and the number one priority for me is my daughter and my wife. Of course, I don't have to chase a sale anymore. I don't have to do those things. And so it's I'm at a point where I'm clear. I know who I am. I know why I'm on this earth. I know the value that I create. I know how to commercialize what I do for the right reasons, not for myself, but for the advancement of others. And when you have that sense of clarity, nothing else really matters. And I know where I fit and where I don't, where I could add value and where I don't. I know what spaces I need to be in, and those I don't need to be in, and it's not a competitive rat race anymore. I'm clear, and I think it did take you a number of years to learn that. And I and I think if there's some way we could short circuit, hack the gap for people, my book's called hacking the gap, returning from intuition to innovation and beyond. So the reality is, you know, it's like, how do I if I'm 20 years old listening to this podcast? I don't want to get it stuck in this career quicksand? No, yeah, well, that's so let's talk about these six essential skills for re ambition. I'm gonna, I'm gonna combine a couple of questions together, and then, could you share a personal story where you've used some of these skills and then address this? Well, why don't we just do that? First, let's go with the skills. Because these, these look, if somebody listens to this podcast and says, Hey, I want to take away from it. The six skills are going to be it, right? And we obviously could re enumerate them, just enumerate them, just like listing them on Sure. But what the story? Sure? Well, let's, let's start with what it is that the book is solving for. It's helping you get out of your life and career in career Quick Set. So what is that? Well, quicksand is the state of not only feeling stuck in your life or your career, but also a realization that your current job, the trajectory of your life, has no real meaning, purpose and significance anymore. In fact, it fails to generate any personal value to one's life and to the life of others and and so I just want to be clear with that, because, yeah, it's a catchy term, but it's in a place where most people are in Greg. And so how do you get out of it? I'll start with with the first one, and, and before I go continue, you mentioned something about this next generation, I'm going to be very bold and say that next generation will have a head start to our generation, Greg, because they don't have to do as much unlearning as we do, of course, okay, they won't have to do as much unlearning. And so my advice to them is to create a mentor mentee relationship where both are the mentor and both are the mentee, because both of you could add equal weight in value to one another, and it doesn't matter if that person has 30 more years of experience, it means it doesn't really have that much value, because I've met too many people that have a lot of experience but are completely irrelevant to solve today's opportunity. So I share that because don't fall into the into the trap of feeling that you need to be anybody else but yourself. So what's the first step? Again? High level number one is, it's about discover. You need to harness your natural curiosity to discover something new. I mean, you have to look around. Look around with intentionality. What are you looking for? In fact, you may have to start looking in places that you've actually never looked before, like I'll give you a really simple example, because my I mean, since you and I have met Greg, I've reinvented myself numerous times, and when we first met, I would just this new, young author. I mean, trying to understand the industry, you know, now I, I host summits. I, you know, I write for Forbes. I mean, I can go on and on. I do, you know, my own podcast, because I started to realize that the mention the dimensions of who I am can't be defined by someone else, so, but they can certainly be guided by what others might think of you. When I say guided is, you know, it's important to take inputs. You know, discovering who you are. A lot of it has to do with what other people expect from you. In other words, what's an easy way of getting this thing started is ask someone, based upon your experience and what you think you know of me, what do you expect from me? You'd be shocked at what people are going to are going to say to you based upon what you know about me or what you've experienced, what do you expect from me? You're not going to be happy with the answers. Why? Because you haven't been conscious, or maybe you have, and if you have good for you, but most people are not consciously aware of how their actions are interpreted by other people. So over time, what ends up happening if you're inconsistent with who you are, you become someone that you're not, at least, that's how you're perceived in the marketplace. And so I share this because, as you're discovering, you know, get those inputs, but also you have to trust yourself enough to know what it is that you're looking for. And this is part of reinvention, literally starting all over again. So and be optimistic about what form that something might take place, right? Because you never really know where the wind's going to blow. For me, I never would have thought, you know, 20 years ago, that I was going to be an author. Never, in my wildest dreams, I didn't sign up for it. Didn't think that would even a possibility, and so I ran with it, and continue to run with it, but what I did is I continue to discover different dimensions about myself. I created five books, but they're all interconnected. This is the work that I do every day, in working with organizations and individuals, I help them discover themselves. In fact, I've identified certain patterns in people that I've come to learn that the biggest barrier for people discovering themselves is that they have forced themselves to become part of environments that they actually don't trust, but they actually feel like they belong in those environments. So you call those, you call those standardized environments. Well, I do call them what? Yeah, I do standardized versus versus personalized. And you said there's this tension between personalized and standardized organizations. But so look, this is I love how you've approached this. I love the vernacular you're using to describe it, because it's easy to understand, yet the culture of the organization. We've switched gears a little bit here, but this applies to yourself as well, because this is how you see you versus how the world sees you, right? And you say that there are barriers, or you say that leaders try and find a balance between these two forces. So my question is, hey, you've got this organization which has this particular culture. I worked with Richard Barrett and all the best in the world doing trainings like this too. How would you approach an organization and help the leaders find a balance between allowing people to have their autonomy and personalization, versus already what's been initiated with inside the organization is standardization. Yeah, it's a big, big question, and I'm gonna, no, I'm gonna, well, but I'm gonna, I'm gonna simplify it for you, and I'm gonna share a couple statistics with you. It is. So where do you start? Right? Because there's a starting point. Is it the environment, like the work environment that you belong to. Is it you as an individual, or is it both? What would you say, Greg, is it the environment the individual, or both? What do you think I would say? I think there's an ecosystem. Let me put it that way, that each organization has. And I'm gonna say that it is both Okay, so let's stop there. Okay, number one, you're exactly right. When I first started doing this work, I would have said the individual, but what did I learn? I learned that in this is where corporate America, unfortunately has spent millions of dollars and is just hasn't gotten it right? Why? And I'll give you the short version, because if we invest so much in the individual, and then we expect them to do better for the organization, because let's get let's be clear, we were trained to practice all ideas at the expense of new ones. Let me say this differently. We are trained to help the organization grow. We're not trained to become better individuals. They don't they don't take stock in what matters to us. It's about what we can do to help them make more money. And I say that very respectfully, but now this game is changing. Why? Because now the individual has is now a consumer. We're no longer someone we're someone that has choice now, lot more choices than we have in the past. So now organizations know that they just can't rely on people hanging around for you know, 1015, years anymore, those days are done. So they have to invest in each individual and their career, where those people stay in their organizations or not? What's the point? You invest? Invest. But when those people now get invested in and they go back into the environment and they hit a brick wall, what happens that individual employee loses faith of the intention behind the organization's culture goals? Because if you have the right culture and you are trying to do everything that you can to unleash the individual to do more and be more, and then they hit that brick wall. What's that tell you that we have not taught the individual how to diagnose the workplace culture? And why is this important? Because what's the environment trying to do? Well, it should aim to align its business goals and its objectives with employees capabilities. But we don't know employee capabilities. We make the assumption about who belongs, where, doing what and how. So we really don't know who our people are. So, right? So, and I share that, because when you look in the individual side, the goal should be unlocking their potential to actually accelerate our business goals. In other words, like you said, both the environment and individual carry equal weight, but until we understand how to diagnose the environment and unleash the capacity of our people, we can't even begin to think about finding that balance. So I share this because this is why we're in pursuit of finding balance. People don't understand how so well what you do? Glenn, and I just, I want to say this is, again, my perception. You know, we're living in a world today where we're seeing a uprising and changing and, uh, proliferation, uh, even this use the healthcare industry. You were talking about healthcare. So the correlation here is, if I am a functional medicine doctor, I'm going to approach this in a different way about how I treat patients, meaning I'm not going to wait for the disease to occur, to then spend a bunch of money. So the insurance carrier says, well, the guy's got cancer. Now I'm gonna look at how could I work to prevent this person from getting cancer? You know, in corporations, the cancer has already started forming under the standardization model. Pardon me for saying that. Why reality? Truth? It's true. Yeah, exactly. And so my part is, is, if they're going to invest money, let's put it invest money, the best investment they could make right now, in 2025 is actually the same approach that a functional medicine doctor would take. How do I help this individual personalization, in your case, become healthier before they get sick inside that environment? Okay, so what you are is the functional medicine doctor for corporations, or however you want to put it, would that be a good way to kind of put a ribbon on it? Greg, that was epic. I salute you. Yeah, that was great. That was a perfect way keep going. Well, you know, look, I'm in a state. I'm 70. You said you're 59 you don't as you age 58 you look good, Greg, you look good. Yeah. You do not have to accept disease. You can do things to prevent it. So Do everything you can to prevent osteoporosis, arthritis. Cancer, whatever it might be. And if you do now, that doesn't mean you're not going to do it, but at least you were working toward the way you wanted your life to be, which was a healthy, productive I say I like Benjamin Franklin. I was all used up. I virtually used up, whatever, whether I was working or whether I was doing philanthropic work, I was used up, and I loved it. My point here is, you work in the healthcare field. I've seen some of your your videos on the podcast, right. And the reality is, is that we've reached a turning point. Glenn, for organizational reinvention, personal reinvention, from the standardization in your case to the personalization model, and if corporations again would take your advice, which I'm sure many of them are, they would find, obviously the outcome is happier employers, more engaged, less turnover, higher productivity. The kind of things they've all looked for, they look for all of that wrapped up in a, in a, in a bow as well. And I know as an individual, as a cultural change agent. You're the kind of guy that can make that happen, right? So that's, that's it go on. So, no, I No, look, I appreciate that, Greg and, but why is it so important that you kind of put that in a bow? Because that's really how simple it is. And, but, I will tell you that. You know, I've been challenged on this topic many times saying, Well, Glenn, how can you scale that? And in the question is, it's really simple. You have to take the time to know your people. But leaders today don't want to take the time to know their people. Let me give you an example as it relates to the healthcare industry. And I'm gonna I'm sharing this one, Greg, because most people aren't gonna know what I'm about. Ready to share. Nurses in this country run the US healthcare system. When I'm saying at the provider side, at the hospital side, right? What they do every day to tend to patients and support physicians and the institution and the communities that they serve is unbelievable. What most people don't know is that there is tension, and it's not healthy, between what nurses think is in the best interest of the hospital, and what their executives believe is in the best interest of the hospital. Leadership, standardization, nursing, personalization. Do I have it even? Do I have to even describe that nurses? Personalization, they tend to people and their unique needs? Standardization, leadership, KPIs, efficiency, outcomes, these two things don't always blend. They can, but it's going to take leadership a very fundamental pivot, and that is, there are other ways to get the outcomes than we've always got them. Yeah. And so that's it. It's that simple. That is that simple. And you know, if somebody was to summarize this book, what can it do they can, you know, make reinvention your superpower, which it would do definitely. And I want to state one thing. There's a gentleman here has been on the show several times, and a personal friend from Del Mar, California, Dr Steve Berman, b i e r m a n, wrote a book called Healing beyond pills and potions. Now working with Andrew Weil the University of Arizona on the nomadic medicine initiative. Now noetic, whether you look at placebo Nocebo, they have found through their work that ha. Now this goes to an HR director too, so I hope every HR director out here who's listening, or every VP who's listening, here's what I'm about to say. You said they don't know their people about three minutes ago. They don't care to know their people. Okay? So if a doctor doesn't care to know his patient, here's the same example, the likelihood of the person advancing disease in some area is like 300% more versus a doctor who has compassion, cares and takes an understanding of wanting to know the patient and provide them with a prognosis. So let's say the prognosis is instead of me phrasing it to you, hey, Glenn, yeah, you have cancer, and there's a 80% chance of you dying. How about if I said, Hey, Glenn, you have a little bit of cancer, but you you literally have a 20% chance of living. And here's the things that you should do. So just changing the way I speak with you will change your psychology and will change, literally, your outcome of survival. Well, how about this? Greg, if I may. Holly back, let's stop calling people cancer patients, right? Let's start calling them human beings who have cancer? Yeah, it's the same thing that you're talking about, because, see, they didn't fail cancer. Cancer failed them. And this is these are such small but yet powerful ways to approach even personal discovery you have, it reminds me of this gentleman, uh, this is his, the social media influencer. His name is Brad Lee, and he shared with me, uh, he's a dear friend of mine. He said, you know, Glenn, there are winners and losers in life, but I'm observing more and more people who are winners, who are losing. See the difference, see the difference in and so why are they losing in Yeah, they're winners, but why are they losing because people don't, lot of people, most people, don't want to accept the truth of what having to reinvent. In other words, I might have the best ideas to shape an organization's growth strategy, but if they're not ready, am I losing? No, they're losing because they haven't made themselves ready. And I think this is an important point about just our personal lives, even our professional lives. When you know it goes back to your one of your original questions, when do you know that it's time to reinvent? And I said, when you feel suppressed and you've reached a point where you've been defined by everybody else but yourself, and you don't know how to reboot. In so many words, I said that. So what happens? You do nothing, and you wait and you wait and you wait until hopefully something happens. But in the meantime, you get you stuck. Get Stuck deeper and deeper and deeper into the quicksand. So same thing with organizations. They create this illusion of progress, not all, but most big brands that everybody here is familiar with, at the expense of real evolution. Who loses the consumer? If you, if you sell a product to that's consumable, the consumer will why? Because they won't get the innovation fast enough from the brand that they expected it from. So does that employee who expected to be part of an organization that was going to grow and evolve because the brand's been around for 100 years. They lose too. In other words, they become rest, less relevant as they're projecting their career trajectory. You see what's happening here over time. We're creating this in these environments of mediocrity, but yet we create the perception that, oh no, I've been around 30 years, 30 years of what mediocrity. I mean, I'm not trying to be tough Greg, but I'm trying to be a realist in this is why I say it's the most opportunistic time in modern history, because today you can do something with yourself. In other words, maybe the marketplace is not ready for you, but that doesn't mean that you're not ready for yourself. Because, well, I would say Glenn that conformity is rampant, meaning conformity to whatever the standardization is to awaken a world inside of an organization, or I should say, awaken a culture for transformation. So use some good examples like Patagonia, where they allow autonomy, and they allow their people to go surfing, and they do all the good things that you that you should be doing versus corporations, which I'm not going to name any, but there's plenty of them that I know that are just the opposite, because they're coming from fear, and it really comes from love and fear. Do you love your people, or are you afraid that your people are going to do something and you're going to repress them and have this standardized approach? But I think anybody out there listening today who is young, middle aged or even older age, and maybe they're changing careers, they're reinventing they're saying, Oh, good, I'm going to read this book, and I'm now going to get out of me being a programmer for the last 30 years, and I'm going to go be an artist. See what we're advocating is that you follow your heart, that you follow your love, that you follow what you're compassionate about and trust in the fact that things are going to come together for you. Now you just said that. Hey, look, I moved to North Carolina. I've been trusting. I've let go of all of this heavy baggage and weight that I was carrying, for a lot of people that's extremely fearful. So here's going to be my question for you, wrapping this up, what advice would you give any people in those age brackets so that it would prevent them falling into the quicksand? Okay, in other words, let's say I'm 40. I don't like this job anymore. I went out, but I'm afraid as hell, man, I'm 50. I've gotten out, but now I'm unemployed, and I'm having a hard time finding another job, right job? J, O, B, what kind of advice? Because you've been through this, you're speaking from experience. You're saying, Hey, I've been here. I've been through this. It's tough. I know what it is. What would you tell them to look out for? And what would you have them do to put their eyes into the future of what can be sure? Big Question, what to stay away from? Okay, because once you've got the biggest thing right now is knowing the assets that you have, and I'm not talking about financial assets, the assets that you bring as a human being. So first thing is evaluate those you associate yourself with. I believe that there's four people, types of people we associate with, leaders, lifters, loafers and leeches. Most people associate themselves with loafers and leeches. Why? Because they just want to be heard. So stay away from the people that suck the life out of you. Stay away. Well, Glenn, I don't know any loafers and leeches. Well, then listen to podcasts like Greg's, who is constantly providing tools, wisdom and insights to lift you up and get you to begin to start reimagining. So that's the people you associate with. Now it's you. I'll say what I said earlier. Face your truth. What is it that's holding you back? And write a list of five top things that's holding you back, and money cannot be one of them. And you're going to say, Well, Glenn, I can't pay the bills. Well, I hate to say it this way, but there are jobs out there that don't require much for you to make money. So we have to swallow our pride and do what you need to do to survive right now, but in the interim, reintroduce yourself to yourself. Who are you? What do you want to be? What is it that gets you excited and makes you feel fulfilled? And I know that these are not novel questions, but why am I asking you this? Because what is it all at the end of the day, it's about how we navigate and manage opportunities. Can you see them? Are you acting on them? Are you trying to build momentum around the things that you're after? Are you even sharing opportunities with others? And I'll tell you one thing, what Greg is doing right now, and he shared this with me before the show, because I want to use Greg as an example. He has poured his life into sharing and giving, sharing and giving, and sharing and giving, and that couldn't be a lonely cycle, because you don't want to expect anything from others in return, but you at least hope that the world is good enough to where someone is going to see opportunity in in providing Some reciprocity. But I share that, because this is how he manages opportunities, and he does it extraordinarily well, extraordinarily genuine. He does it for the right reasons. What do you what opportunity do you do for the right reasons? What is it? What? What is it that you've always wanted to do, and you might be thinking that you've run out of time, and don't ever think of time that you're chasing time, but what is it that you're chasing? And let me give you an idea of what most people say. They say, I'm chasing legacy, I'm chasing comfort, I'm chasing happiness, I'm chasing loyalty, I'm chasing the unknown. We're all chasing something. So I share this because being honest with yourself, it's like taking an inventory of everything that you think is where the odds are against you, but what are the things that you have on your side that you can then begin to take action on? Because if I've learned one thing about my life is that I've lived a very happy and healthy life, and I've done a lot of things that are hard, like extraordinarily hard. Don't be fooled by you listening to me. I'm super articulate. I've had to acquire this. I've had to work on it, but I bet on myself, and I share this because I truly believe in the hundreds of 1000s of people that I've worked with, what holds them back is the fear of failure, and everybody's starting over again. So don't stop comparing yourself. Get yourself around the right people and again, you know, if you have faith, you know, dig into that Bible. Do well, I think right for you. I think spirituality is a big element here. We haven't mentioned but we we can leave that for another show, but I would do highly mention it. I don't care if people out there listening or Muslim or Christian or Jewish or whatever they are, because my show reaches everybody, right? And one of our genres is spirituality, yeah, and I will say that you know, you having a faith beyond yourself in a greater power that exists, whatever that might be individuals, it's very important, because that's where you're going to draw your sustenance from. One of the things that I would say is, you said chasing. What are you chasing? And if you start to become comfortable and true to yourself, it isn't so much about the chase as it is about the the comfort that you're in. In other words, you can be uncomfortable. You can get in those places where you're gonna climb, Mount Everest, or do whatever you're gonna do to succeed and have some success. The point is, if you're running away from something towards something else, why are you running away from whatever it was? Truly analyze that. Look at that. Because the reality is, is that you manifested that now you want to manifest something else, and you think that something else is going to be better. And I see this happen so many times. Glenn, in relationships and divorce, it's like, well, I'm running away from ex Mary Ann, because I'm going to ABC because I think that it's better. And I'm saying, Did you ever look at the value of what it is that you have right in front of you because you've made up a story about what it isn't not what it actually is. Now I'm not saying in all cases it's going to work out, but that's true about a job as well. Yeah, yeah, but it's true about a career as well. You can learn and come to work every day, even if it's in a company that's using the standardization model. And you can bring the personalization to the standardization model and be the example inside the standardization model that can work. And you can do that. It can start one person at a time, and that's how we do this. That's how it's done, but that's exactly how it's done. But it takes that one person who has the courage to do it, then gets the other person to do it, and the other person to do it. Why? Because what do they say to them? Man, I've been thinking the same thing for years, I'm on board. I'm on board. And what you start doing is you start building this movement of people who said, Look, we're not just in it for what we're being told. We're here to add value. So if I'm going to add real value, the only way I can do that is being more of who I am and what I represent, or as I say to people, what do you solve for? Like, what are those opportunities that you enjoy solving for the most? But I love what you're saying, Greg, it makes a lot well, all of you go out, get a copy of this book, Make reinvention your superpower. You know, Glenn, for years, people told me I'd go in and do consulting inside of business, and I call myself, what is the resultant, not the consultant? And they would say, No, you know what? You're an undercover evangelist, aren't you? And I would say, Well, if that's the way you want to look at me, because my license plate says illuminate on it, right? So when I drive up, it's illuminate. And I think you can be the light in the darkness. You can shine the light in there. And I will leave this podcast with this. Please try to be the light where there is darkness. Bring light to where. I mean, Kamala Harris said there's inner, inner speeches. I think we need that right now, and especially when it comes to ourselves. So bring the light to yourself. Treat yourself right, reinvent yourself, go out there and be who you can truly be. Do get this book, because this will be, I call it a fire starter to get going, you'll actually do this and again, watch that QR code, because you can get the QR code and you get the whole little workbook that goes along with this. Glenn honor having you back on again, I want to do this more because I just say it was a great dialog to have, but I also know that listeners, they have a satiation level. So you gotta go, Hey, how much can I listen to this? I mean, I know Seth Rogen goes two hours, but he just kind of riffs. And you and I haven't been riffing. We've been talking about things that are quite substantial. So thanks for your appearance on the show. Thanks for contributing to our learning environment. Thanks for all that you're doing and still doing, and just appreciate you so much. Well, Greg, thank you. I, I really love your style, the way you listen and go deeper into the subject matter. And you know, thank you for, you know, investing 1000s of episodes to be an enabler for opportunity for people. I mean, we, we need people like you, and I appreciate it, and thank you for the opportunity to allow me to contribute. Your acknowledgement is well recognized. I appreciate it very much. Glenn, have a blessed New Year. Likewise.
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Inside Personal Growth with Greg Voisen · Podcast 1191: Mastering the Art of Distance: Leadership in Remote and Hybrid WorldsIn the latest episode of “Inside Personal Growth,” host Greg Voisen engages with seasoned leadership experts Wayne Turmel and Kevin Eikenberry to unpack the intricacies of managing remote and hybrid teams. Broadcasting from Las Vegas, the duo delves into their latest work, The Long-Distance Leader: Revised Rules for Remarkable Remote and Hybrid Leadership, offering timely insights for today’s evolving workplace.
Exploring Key Leadership Challenges: Wayne and Kevin begin by discussing the unique challenges that come with remote leadership, such as inspiring and retaining talent across dispersed teams. They emphasize the critical role of technology in bridging communication gaps and ensuring that leaders can effectively manage their teams regardless of physical location.
Technological Advancements in Leadership: The conversation highlights how advancements in communication technology have reshaped leadership practices. From the rise of platforms like Zoom to the integration of hybrid work models, technology has become a cornerstone of modern management strategies.
Adapting Leadership Styles for Remote Environments: Both guests share their insights on the necessity of adapting leadership styles to suit remote environments. They stress the importance of being intentional in communication and decision-making to foster a culture of inclusivity and engagement among remote team members.
Practical Leadership Strategies: Wayne and Kevin provide practical strategies for leaders facing the complexities of remote work. They discuss the importance of setting clear expectations, utilizing the appropriate technological tools, and maintaining regular and meaningful interactions with team members.
Resources for Further Learning: For those looking to dive deeper into their leadership methodologies and access additional tools, Wayne and Kevin invite listeners to explore their websites. You can find more about Wayne Turmel’s approach to leadership and communication at WayneTurmel.com, and Kevin Eikenberry’s extensive resources on leadership development at KevinEikenberry.com.
This podcast episode not only sheds light on the evolving landscape of leadership in the context of remote work but also provides valuable resources and guidance for leaders striving to excel in these challenging environments.
You may also refer to the transcripts below for the full transcription (not edited) of the interview.
Interview Transcipt -Not EditedEmailDownloadNew TabGreg Voisen
Welcome back to Inside personal growth. This is Greg Voisen, the host of inside personal growth. And joining us from Las Vegas is Wayne Turmel, and he is he and his partner here, Kevin, I have written this book called the long distance the long distance leader revised rules for remarkable remote and hybrid leadership. And I was just telling both these gentlemen that I just finished a discussion with Vern Harnish at scaling up. And it is an issue these days, you guys, is this whole issue of leadership and leading remotely and inspiring people and reducing the level of how do we want to say it? I don't want to say turnover, but really getting keeping people inspired and keeping them going on the jobs and the little huddles and the meetings and all that. So both of these gentlemen's have been doing this for years and helping people develop leaders. And I'm going to read the bios for each of you so that our listeners know a little bit. Kevin is the chief potential officer at Kevin eckenberry Group, a Leadership and Learning Company based in Indianapolis and international with teams across the United States. He spent over 30 years running organizations and leaders from at least 53 countries become more effective. Global gurus has listed him as the most influential thinker on Leadership for the last three years. His blog is Kevin eckelberry.com, blog, forward slash blog. And the podcast that he has, which is remarkable, is called remarkable podcast.com and it's among the most popular on leadership. So definitely go tune into that Wayne in the upper left hand corner there, he's been writing about how to develop communication leaderships for over 30 years. He's taught and consulted at Fortune 500 companies and startups around the world, and for the last 18 years, he's focused on growing the growing needs to communicate effectively in remote and virtual environments. In addition to his writing, Wayne is sought after speaker at business and leadership conferences. He's authored 15 books himself, and he's a frequent guest at ATD international conferences and expos and learning expos. And he's also the host of the long distance work life podcast, Marshall Goldsmith calls him one of the most unique voices in leadership today. Love Marshall. You gotta love Marshall.
Wayne Turmel
Well, like that about me, of course,
Greg Voisen
Yeah, boy does I say? Boy does he get around? He used to live in a town adjacent to me, and I used to go to his house in Rancho Santa Fe and we'd have little breakfast in the morning and do walks through the village and things. And it was always fun. But he is definitely the consummate amazing coach living in Tennessee now and but thank you guys for being on the show. And I think let's start this off. You guys didn't need to write another book, but you decided to, and I always like to know what inspired both of you to write the second edition of the long distance leader. And I think, more importantly, how is remote leadership evolved since the first edition of your book. Because things are faster. More is expected of leaders, more as expected of middle management, people as well. Explain. Well, I
Wayne Turmel
think really the thing is that the original book came out in 2018 and I don't know if you've noticed, the world is a different place than it was in 2018 there. The book was lovely and it was very good, and a lot of people in seven languages, and, you know, have found it helpful. But there were two main things that needed to be addressed. One is just the pure technology has changed so much. You know, when we start, when we wrote the book, Zoom literally did not exist, and it went from what zoom to a verb to a syndrome in like, two years, as well as you know what is now, Microsoft Teams was then Skype for Business. So the technology changed. And while the book isn't about technology, I think to maintain credibility, you need to speak people's language. The second thing that I think ultimately was more important is that in 2018 a lot of people were saying, Yeah, we got to start thinking about remote work, and we need to start planning for it. And now, you know, a third of the workforce has done it, and many of those people continue to do it to this day, so it's less. Here's what you're going to need to think about to Okay, here's what's happening. And by the way, even with the push to return to office and everything else, the genie is out of the bottle. And while there are fewer people working purely remote than there were during the pandemic, hybrid work and flexible work has just continued to increase, and people need to know how to deal with that stuff well
Greg Voisen
and and Wayne and Kevin, you know, I have a son who's an executive at Adobe, and I think one of the things you find is where is talent. And so when leaders are responsible for developing software or developing a new rocket or whatever it might be. You're looking for talent in all the different places around the globe. And so when you have a team in Argentina and a team in Germany or a team in Yugoslavia, and you got to get on Zoom, like we're doing here right now, and my son says the biggest challenge he has as an executive at Adobe is really managing those teams and all the Zoom calls, okay, and so I'd like for you guys to address this, because it is, I know it may sound silly, but it's really not silly, because this is truly an issue for every company out there, finding the talent, managing that talent, and then leading that talent toward a common vision and goal that the company has. So Kevin, you want to take that
Kevin Eikenberry
one absolutely so. So, first of all, you know, we say in the book that, first of all, you said the subtitle of the book is revised rules. And so the first rule in both edition one and edition two is, think leadership, first location, second. So all those three things you just said, find talent, keep talent. Keep them engaged. All those things like those things, have always been true for leaders. Leaders have always needed to be thinking about those things. Now that we're doing it, whether we're spread out across countries, in continents, as you described, or whether we're just trying to get the right people on our bus that's domestic, having the ability to bring people from a wider geographical range actually gives us a broader group to find right to find the right talent from
Greg Voisen
the gene pool is bigger
Kevin Eikenberry
the pool, yeah, the talent pool we got. We got a bigger pool we can swim in, if you want to look at it that way, right? So I think that all of those things you asked have always been true for leaders. What's different now, of course, is the context is different, right? So the the principles of leading haven't changed. We want to attract and retain talent and have that talent be engaged, and want to do great work where they are. We just have to think about some of those things differently. Now, if we're doing it at a distance, right? 20 years ago, we didn't 15 years ago, 10 years ago. 10 years ago, we didn't have to think about things like zoom maybe we got on a conference call every once a month. Remember those every once in a while, but not like we're doing now. 3456789, times a day, getting on a meeting like the three of us are on right now, and like your son is talking about getting on. So leaders have to still understand that human nature hasn't changed, group dynamics haven't changed, but the context that that's happening in has changed a great deal. So we have to get better at things like using the technology, and I'm sure a lot of the other kinds of stuff we're going to talk about during this conversation. Greg,
Greg Voisen
well, you say in your under the section of the book, under practical challenges and solutions, you say Rule number one is to think leadership first, location second. Can you provide some examples of leaders who set successfully embodied this mindset? So I get leadership number one and location second. But if again, I'll bring this back up. If I'm managing a team of developers, let's just say, in Ukraine, location does become an issue because of time zones and things and issues I've got to deal with, also making sure at certain times there's even a bit sometimes language barriers, because we're dealing with people in different languages, so we've got to have Google Translate, and we had to do all kinds of things. So tell talk about rule one and embodying this mindset.
Wayne Turmel
Yeah, I think we saw this in the early days of the pandemic, because when we think about leadership, it's what you need to do. I mean, you were saying you need to set the vision. You need to manage you need to manage performance. You need to give feedback. Yep, you gotta do all that stuff. What we do as leaders doesn't change regardless of where people are. What's changed is how we do it. And there are two big things. Number one is we need to do it mediated and mitigated by technology in ways that we never did before. And the second thing is that we need to be more intentional, because we don't get all of the unconscious cues. If I walk through the office and somebody's banging her head on her monitor, only a monster would not stop and say, is everything okay? The problem is, if I'm in the office, I can see that there is a problem. If I'm working remotely, I may not be aware that there's a problem unless I'm consciously checking in. And that notion of how technology impacts it, it's funny. The worst story I ever heard I lived through my wife was once fired by instant messenger, and your stunned silence tells me what I need to hear right? Which is, any sentient human says that's a terrible thing to do, but the technology allows it, and if I'm a lousy Manager, which, surprise, surprise this guy clearly was, it's really easy to do the wrong things. It's harder work to set up a zoom call to have those difficult conversations in the richest way possible.
Greg Voisen
So question for you. You know, in that interview with Vern, we got talking about people like Steve Jobs, and we were talking about Elon Musk, and there's a huge difference between a visionary and a leader, and many of these people, so the way I take it is they've said Elon Musk is a brilliant guy and a quite a visionary, and he holds the hey, we're gonna shoot this rocket and we're gonna end up going to to Mars, Right? And he can get a group of people around that vision, but he can't coach them. He's a miserable coach, and he's supposedly a horrible person to work for, in other words, directly. So what would you guys say around how leaders overcome the challenges of kind of maintaining trust, connection with the team members that they actually rarely see in person, because imagine running a company like Tesla, right? It isn't Elon Musk running that company. He's got a whole line of people that are running that company to keep it in and deliver those cars and do whatever. And believe me, it's definitely remote. It's all over the place. So explain to me how you guys, this book in particular can help any of these leaders out there managing at a distance when they've got all these complexities going on.
Kevin Eikenberry
The first thing I'd say, I'll say this about to your point about visionary versus leader, and so we think of leadership is about reaching valuable outcomes within through others. And so I would suggest that both jobs and musk pretty good at the outcome side of that clear picture, clear vision. But there's a but there's the how are we going to marshal the folks, engage the folks, develop the folks to make that happen. And the only way Jobs was successful, and Musk is and will be, or should be, we expect will likely be, is that he's got other people making sure that the people part of that, the leadership part of that is happening. So leadership is about both of those things. And I would say both of those guys really good at one, not so good at the other outcomes, but not necessarily others, right thinking about maintaining trust and connection is less about the outcome, at least, at first we think, Well, we're just trying to get the work done, and yet we know that if we have the kinds of relationships and the chance to build trust, then we have a better chance of getting those outcomes to happen. So it's it may seem secondary, and yet it's foundational to making the rest of it work. So what I would suggest, if I'm not seeing my folks, which I don't my team, is spread out. I'm going to see Wayne next week for the first time since May, and for the first time in our office for a year. And yet, I would suggest that we have a level of trust and connection, because it's important, right? So like in the book, we talk about trust being about purpose, competence and motives, and so is our purpose clear, and we can make that happen regardless of where people are located, if people understand the purpose what we're going after, but but the time that we spend and the interaction that we have and the expert expectations that we set have a huge impact on those other two how do people view us as competent or not? How do we view our folks as competent or not? And then are our motives in alignment? And if they are, then the chances are that trust has a chance to grow if we don't intentionally make this a part of what we're trying to accomplish. It won't happen, and it won't happen if all we ever do is transact the business and talk about work and weather. So we have to get as leaders. We have to talk about more than just the work and the
Greg Voisen
weather. Well, look, we've talked about zoom, but there's all kinds of other tools, right? And you said in the book, you stressed the importance of using technology as a tool. There's a lot of tools we can choose from in the tool test today, from Asana to zoom to you name it, Microsoft's got all kinds of tools as well. So there's a proliferation of this stuff. What guidelines do you recommend? And I've heard this before, because, look, you can get too many of these tools and think that they're actually doing well, oh, we're on Slack, oh, we're on this, oh, we're on that. So what do you guys actually say about for selecting and implementing the right tools? Where do I start when I see this plethora of stuff to keep people connected while we work remotely. Well.
Wayne Turmel
As a non techie guy, I will tell you that a simple and somewhat somewhat glib rule of thumb is you want to use the least amount of the technology that it takes to acquire the greatest good right and ultimately, what that means is you need to choose the right tool for the right communication job for the right reasons. So you know, the guy who fired my wife by instant messenger clearly was not using the right tool in the right way. Yes, the job got done, but so was the damage right. What we did was we actually adopted a model which isn't even ours. It was originally invented by a Swiss researcher named Bettina Bucha, who said that all tech, all communication, is a balance of richness versus scope. There are times when you need rich communication, there are times when you need it far, wide and fast. So if I'm having a coaching conversation, you don't want to do that over email, right? Ideally, you would have that one on one across a table with a cup of coffee. It's not always possible or practical in today's workplace. Well, what's the richest thing you can do? And it's probably a one on one, private, personal zoom. Or I'd
Greg Voisen
agree with you, but I'd also say that Marshall Goldsmith was the first one that came up with AI coaching. Now, and I don't know if you guys are aware of this, but he literally program. But there again, it absolutely does,
Wayne Turmel
and there are level just as there are levels of feedback, right? Nice job is feedback. So is let's look at what this project entailed, right? There are levels of feedback, there are levels of coaching, there is formal coaching, there's informal coaching. So if the only interaction I got, I love Marshall to pieces, but if he decided he never needed to talk to me and all the coaching I needed was done through a bot, nope, over time, that's not going to work, because I agree to we need to build relationships. We need to build trust. We need to do those things, and so all these rich communication needs to be done richly. It's Al's birthday. There's cake in the break room. Doesn't require one on one, in depth conversation totally.
Greg Voisen
We still need that human connection. But here's what you see happening, and you guys definitely with remote have to be totally on top of this, which I know you are. It's like businesses, businesses moving at a much more rapid speed. People are using things like AI to scale. A Marshall is a great example of using the tool to scale, to be able to get more people underneath the umbrella and get them coached and help them. And I think you find lots of companies like this saying, hey, how do we have a better interaction? Whether it's a hybrid of AI and a real person, or this or that, or whatever it might be, it's moving that direction, right? It is moving that direction. Comment from you guys,
Kevin Eikenberry
yeah, so 100% like, we're working on AI tools, like we all we, we believe in the value and they are, whether they've got Marshall's name on or Kevin's name on them, or whoever's name on them, they're a tool. They're a tool that didn't used to exist, right? We should use the tools that are helping us, and they aren't necessarily, and I don't believe they are a replacement. So for having a leader who is your coach. So it's one thing to get process help from the expertise of Marshall. It's another thing to be able to get coaching and validation and feedback on what's happening in the real world, in real time, on the work. And so having tools, whether they're AI or otherwise, whether they're other sorts of technologies, are incredibly useful. Like, think about how hard the pandemic would have been when all we had was a fax machine. Like, of course, we wanted to use the technologies. The question, then, is your original question? How do we pick the right ones at the right time, and so having an AI tool, yeah, of great value. Well, I'll just put it this way, like I have a bunch of hammers, and my favorite hammer happens to be a sledgehammer. I won't tell you all the reasons why, but if I want to put a nail in the wall, I shouldn't pick my favorite one. I should pick the best one, which is attack hammer,
Greg Voisen
yeah. Well, and, and with that being said, you know, I remember this, this video, and you guys probably remember it as well. Tony Robbins was interviewed by a robot. Do you guys remember that? Did you ever watch that video? If you didn't, you should so the robot was all AI, and it had this super intelligence, right? And this was those back aways. And I was amazed at how definitely look it up on YouTube, Tony Robbins being interviewed by a robot. You'll get it. You guys just answered my question regarding asynchronous and synchronous. Look, this is, you know this part right now is synchronous, but asynchronous has its place. Rinse, repeat a we can have a video. We can put it up there. People watching it, midnight, 1am whenever they want to watch it. And literally, it's there. It's on demand all the time. So I get that, whether it's Marshall or you guys, all of this data now exists either in a synchronous or asynchronous category, and I think people want to come in to break out rooms in zoom, talk together, come back together and work on problems and situations, which is wonderful. So how can leaders foster cohesion and collaboration amongst the team members in hybrid, which I just said, a hybrid situation or fully remote environments.
Wayne Turmel
Well, I think where you were going with synchronous versus asynchronous is a huge part of that, that's what makes hybrid work possible, is, does everybody need to be on the clock, connected at the same time every minute of every day? Right? You get companies that claim to be hybrid, but everybody needs to be logged on at 9am East Coast time because the sun revolves around the Statue of Liberty. Well, if everybody has to be online at the same time, you are not taking advantage of the fact that people's brains work differently, and sometimes it's better to be disconnected so I can think and do deep thinking work and not be constantly interrupted. And so as we're thinking, I mean, first of all, what we define as hybrid work frequently isn't but the big thing is, as a team, leaders are responsible for leading the discussion around what work needs to be done synchronously, what work can be done asynchronously and creating guardrails so that you're not on zoom nine times a day, very because that's an over reliance on synchronous work, and ultimately it kills productivity.
Kevin Eikenberry
And to your point about cohesion and collaboration. Too often we think collaboration must be synchronous, and it doesn't like people will say we had to get back to the office, we could all use the whiteboard. And like, how many whiteboards Have you seen that no one's written on because it says, Please save this and no one's looked at it or changed the whiteboard. So my point is, if we want it to your point about cohesion and collaboration, it doesn't have to always be synchronous. However, if we want greater levels of collaboration, we, as a leader, need to model it, and we need to expect it, and we need to make sure that we're creating space for it to happen, and that I find a lot of times in a hybrid workplace, is that having the space, having the time to do it, is sometimes the challenge. I'll
Wayne Turmel
give you a real good example, personal example, that Kevin and I are dealing with right now. We have a meeting next week in Indianapolis. I have done a bunch of thinking about some future projects and different things. I could have held them and walked into the meeting when we're having our meeting and started the discussion there. Instead, I created this list and I brainstormed, and it took me a couple of days. I sent it to Kevin. Kevin has a chance to look at it and think about it and change it and make notes. When we get together, we're starting the conversation halfway through, and able to get productive really quickly, as opposed to brainstorming, where we're both starting from zero, because we're depending on being together
Greg Voisen
well. And that brings me to this issue. You know, it's like, what is the outcome that people want to have at these meetings? We're finding today that people, obviously, a lot of companies, are saying, Hey, if you're calling a meeting or you weren't invited to the meeting, but everybody has these meetings. They're wasting so many, so much time in meetings, right? And this is I've interviewed the people from Franklin Covey and the people from all over who have written books on hey, you know what? Here's our rule. And there are new rules inside of companies, just around meetings, and who, who sponsors the meeting and who should show up, and why they should show up, and what the outcome is, because teams now is saying, Hey, we're going to put a a thing that tells you how much this meeting cost, right? So we're going to tell you that you had these five executives in this meeting and these four other midline managers, or whatever, that meeting just cost you 5000 bucks, right? The point is, is that we're we're doing too many of them. It's an overkill, and the reality is we need it. And this brings me to this concept of of the proximity bias in hybrid teams. You wrote about it in the book. What strategies can leaders use to ensure these equal opportunities and recognize them for all team members in the situation. So anybody who wants to feel that, well, again,
Wayne Turmel
the simple answer right is to be aware of it. Because if you're aware that proximity bias exists, you're going to automatically take efforts to make sure that you hear from everybody, not just the people who are under your nose. Kevin, I think you know as the guy who does more day to day people leadership, you can probably talk about this better, although admittedly, proximity bias is something of a sock for me to chew on like a dog. You
Kevin Eikenberry
do like to chew on that? On that sock? Here's the thing. So our team is spread out across the United States. Most of our team is is at a distance most all the time. There are two people that are in this office two days a week, the same two days, but only if I'm here, like they don't come if I'm not here, and even today, one of them would have been here, except I said there's really no need for you to so don't come. But the point is that when we see people, they're the people we reach out to. And I can guarantee you that I have more interactions with those two people on the days they're here than when they're not. And I think that's good, because why wouldn't we take advantage of that when we can proximity bias becomes a problem when we start to lean on those people because they're handy, rather than being the best people, or either. I mean, they might be prepared and able to help, but maybe the person that needs that development more is someone else, and if, and if Marissa wasn't down the hall, I might not reach out to Marissa, but then I do, because it's just easy, because she's there, that's where proximity bias becomes a problem. So we have to remain as leaders, really intentional about about why we're asking, who we're asking, who we're engaging for, what purposes, what we're trying to delegate, and all of those things, because if we don't, our natural reaction will go to our line of sight, which is the people we see.
Greg Voisen
I think it's so true. I mean, you point out a thing about proximity bias. You're gonna go to those people that are closest and easiest to kind of get to, right? So that's what you said. You default to the two people that are near you. I want to let our listeners know the long distance leader. You can pick this up on Amazon, will have a link. One of the things in the personal growth area and reflection that's recurring theme in the book is self awareness and intentionality. And you know, look, this is a very important thing, whether it's in any company, what exercises or practices do you recommend for leaders to kind of enhance these qualities? I mean, look, you could say, oh, we'll be mindful. That's going to make you more self aware. Well, it's more than just that. You can't just say that. You can say, well, do meditation. Can say, Yeah, well, I can be here now because there is no tomorrow and yesterday's a canceled check. You can say that is too What do you guys really want to tell the listeners about self awareness and intentionality so that they can practice this and become better leaders
Kevin Eikenberry
as human beings, we have this amazing thing, it's called habit. And habit allows us to operate on autopilot for anything, for all kinds of things. Intentionality means Breaking the Habit pattern enough to say is that habit serving me in this moment or not? So there, as a leader, I did a lot of things when people were around me, and so I just did a lot of things on autopilot. I did them automatically. So being intentional means breaking that enough to say, is that the right answer here or is it not? And that's and that means we're being mindful, right? And so intentionality means going past the natural, automatic response to say, What's the best in situ, best thing to do in this context. And given that we're talking about this in terms of long distance, the context is different. That's our whole point from the beginning of leadership location, excuse me, leadership first, location, second. Now the the other piece, though, is that it's not just okay. I'm going to try to break the habit, or move past the habit, or think about those things. That's hard enough. The way to work on that is we can't always be doing that in the present. What we can always do, though, is reflect back, so I can look at the end of the day, at the end of the week, the end of the month, whatever, and say, like, what's working, what's not? What are those situations where I did something on purpose that wasn't necessarily that did something without thinking that wasn't necessarily serving me best? So I would say two things. Number one is intentionality means we have to be willing to go past the auto response and to help relearn or reframe those routines. Requires us to do much more self reflection.
Greg Voisen
You said something really important that I want to bring out, and then Wayne, I'm going to come to you for these last few questions, or both of you. So you know I remember it Stephen Covey, senior, not Junior. Maybe as much when Franklin Covey was at its peak, he used to tell the leaders, put a sign on your door. I'm thinking right now. The reality is we we've kind of stopped thinking, because we're always going so fast, and we haven't given the leaders time to be as intentional and to have that self awareness of that, I think, really, just taking the time to say, our company and culture embraces you, just taking time to think, right, like, hey, just close your door and turn off your phone and sit there and think, I mean, that's Wow, That's quite a little bit of a epiphany. So this brings me to your leadership models and frameworks, which I think are important. Here. There's the 3p and the 3c right. In the 3p It's about, how do you apply this to achieving productivity and potential in remote teams? And the 3c is around cultural collaboration. So which one of you wants to address which one and talk about the two different 3c and 3p models?
Kevin Eikenberry
Why don't you take the P's? I will
Wayne Turmel
do that a little context. This model was created out of a conversation, which is what makes somebody a great teammate, right? Especially if they're remote, what makes somebody a great teammate? And we discovered that there were three things that needed to happen, and they all start with P because Kevin loves alliteration. And so it started with productivity, right? If somebody's on my team, and they aren't productive themselves, and they don't help the team be productive, they're probably not a great teammate and but that was the easy part. That's the the floor is productivity. What we found in interview after interview and survey after survey was the number one thing that people said made a great teammate was proactivity. Not just if something needs to be done, you do it, but do you reach out? If I'm on a call and somebody seems to be struggling, do I reach out to that person? Do I proactively offer my assistance, or do I wait to be asked? And the third P the potential is, if you are proactive and you work on productivity, do those things, there's a long term impact. Kevin was talking earlier about communication being transactional. If the only time you and I talk is you need something and you send me a Slack message, hey, can you send me that file and I go, here it is, and that's the only communication we have. We're not really building a long term relationship. We're not building trust, we're not doing all of these things. And so if we think about productivity, proactivity and potential. We are doing the things and creating the environment that makes us great teammates. So that's where that model came from.
Greg Voisen
That's a great I like how you worded that Wayne and I, and I'm going to use a term to describe what you just said. You know, those 3p are productive harmony, okay? And the reality is, is that people are saying, hey, well, I've got to be productive, but they feel stressed. You don't have to be stressed when you're thinking about those three P's. Okay? So now to you, and I want to say this as a I'm going to open it up to this page. All my listeners, you see this little QR code in this book on page 173 that you're going to go by. You can hit it. And all the online resources are there, including conference call checklists, right? And these QR codes are in this book. Buy the book just for the QR codes to get the references and the work.
Kevin Eikenberry
Don't hold that up there too closely. They'll go grab it right from there and then get there. Well,
Greg Voisen
they didn't see it. Nobody's getting it. But anyway, my point is now let's talk about culture and collaboration, and what practical steps can leaders take to improve communication, collaboration and cohesion?
Kevin Eikenberry
Yeah, those are the three C's, communication, collaboration and cohesion. And we could spend a long time, but Greg, I just want to make a couple of comments about this. Number one is, and we've hinted at this early, we've got to use the right tools. We want to have more effective communication, and we've got more tools at our disposal than ever, but we've got to pick the right tool for the right job, as we said earlier. So if I want, if, if we want, as a TEAM, to have better communication, like, for example, on our team, we use Slack, and we use email, and we said a long time ago, some very clear expectations about when we would use each one, which saves us time. It saves us frustration, and it's hopefully, it aimed us at using the right tool for the best possible purpose this. The second thing I would say is that we're thinking thinking about collaboration and cohesion. We have to have expectations about how we're going to do work. So again, so many people have identified that coat. To have collaboration, we have to be physically together. So what happens when we're all working in our the north end of our dining room table, as Wayne likes to say, or in the extra bedroom in our house, we don't have any connection to other people visually, and so we've got to set clear expectations, to say, here's how we're going to do work, and here's how and when we're going to collaborate, and what that's going to look like, and what we need to expect of each other. In that too often we just think about expectations, about what are we delivering, what I would call the what expectations. But we need to be really clear in terms of building communication, collaboration and cohesion, on the how expectations and the why expectations, taking us back to purpose and vision. Why are we trying to do all this? And we do those things, and if we do what Wayne said as well, which is to make sure that we give people time and space to actually communicate beyond just the work. And if we expect that as well, that that having a working relationship with the people that you work with is actually part of the job, not like if I have time, I will then that will make all the difference for that too, Greg,
Greg Voisen
I like what you said, because, look, it's about giving people their autonomy. And you have to have autonomy when you're working at a distance, and you have to trust, right? There is a big T you have to trust, because you can see when the work is being done or the work is not being done, like the work at hand here, you know, hey, you're responsible for so much code today. You didn't get it done. Kind of what got in the way of you being able to do that, or whatever it is you were supposed to write this paper, or you were supposed to get this done, and we didn't get it done. And I think your book, The Long Distance leader, gives people a lot of opportunities to think about how they can better manage that as a leader, manages expectations, improving cohesion, improving communication, checklists for the calls that you're going to make. I mean, that's pretty basic, but the reality is, I bet you a lot of these zoom calls occur, and no one has a checklist ahead of time, right? People think that, as a podcaster, I'm a little crazy, because I send them the questions ahead of time. They say, oh, there isn't very many people that send us the questions ahead of the podcast. And said, I like to be prepared, because I like to know where I'm going, right? So the point here is, is some of this stuff might seem so obvious, but to a lot of people, it's not. And so in closing, here for both of you, what are two or three things, nuggets that you guys in this updated version of this book would like to leave the listeners with that if a leader out there today is listening and has made it This far in the podcast, could really take away and utilize and apply
Kevin Eikenberry
Wayne, you want to go first? No,
Wayne Turmel
you go first. Well,
Kevin Eikenberry
I would say this. So first of all, thanks for listening all the way through and and I will, I will say what I say at the end of every episode of the remarkable leadership podcast, which is now what, what are you going to take from it? Rather than me telling you what you should take, I would say, think back on what you heard and say what something that would apply to me and my team immediately. And then go do that thing. Not just say, Well, this was interesting, but what am I going to do? And so the most important thing is to take some action. And the other thing I will say is something Greg we were talking about a minute ago, and that's being in 10 that's being intentional. If the leadership hasn't changed completely, but the context of it has changed if we're not with our people all of the time. And so the complexity that comes with that means that we have to be ready to adjust, and that means we've got to be more intentional, rather than just operating the way we've always operated.
Wayne Turmel
And I think one very practical thing that people can do is stop and put that sign on the door that says I'm thinking, and ask yourself a couple of very basic questions, what is the work we need to get done? And in a perfect world, what is the best way to make that work happen? Because we're so busy doing it the way we've always done it, that either we don't think of new alternatives, like flexible work, or we think it's going to be too much trouble to change. So what is the work that needs to be done? And in a perfect world, how could we do it? And then that will give you ideas for incremental change and improvement.
Greg Voisen
Well, both of your gentlemen are the Peter druckers of long distance leadership, and he was somebody that I studied a lot. Oh,
Wayne Turmel
did you record that down? Right?
Greg Voisen
Write that down recording this right. You guys are the Peter druckers of long distance leadership, let me tell you, but I want to thank you for being on inside personal growth, spending some time with our listeners, sharing the wisdom from your book, obviously, as well. And again, for my listeners, there's QR codes in here. Use those QR codes in the book. Get the book. Get the checklist. I think. Look that one page 173 I don't know why they waited to page 173 to put the checklist, because the reality is that would be worth the price of the book, right there. Just having a trick
Wayne Turmel
people into reading at least to page 173
Greg Voisen
so you're going to get this great tool that you're going to be able to use. Thank you both. Have a beautiful Thanksgiving. Namaste to you both for being on the show and spending time with our listeners today.
Kevin Eikenberry
Thanks, Greg.
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Inside Personal Growth with Greg Voisen · Podcast 1190: The Performance Paradox: How Breaking Free from Chronic Habits Can Transform Your LifeIn an enlightening episode of the Inside Personal Growth podcast, host Greg Voisen had an in-depth conversation with Eduardo Briceño, who is widely recognized for his expertise in the realms of performance enhancement and mindset development. Eduardo, an experienced keynote speaker and esteemed author, delved deeply into the sophisticated concepts presented in his publications, emphasizing how profound shifts in mindset can profoundly influence and substantially improve personal and professional performance. This discussion not only highlighted key strategies from his current and upcoming books but also explored the practical implications of these strategies in overcoming common workplace challenges and fostering an environment of continuous growth and learning.
Key Highlights from the Podcast:
- Understanding “The Performance Paradox”
- Eduardo Briceño explores the concept that constant pressure to perform can paradoxically undermine our efficiency and growth. His book, “The Performance Paradox: Turning the Power of Mindset into Action”, delves into strategies for balancing learning and performance to enhance both personal and professional development.
- Anticipating the Upcoming Book
- Building on his previous work, Eduardo introduces his forthcoming title, “The Performance Paradox: The Unexpected Way to Grind Less, Grow More, and Unlock Success”. This next installment promises to expand on the ideas of reducing effort while increasing output through innovative mindset strategies.
- Harnessing Mindset for High Performance
- The discussion highlights how a shift from a fixed to a growth mindset can significantly impact performance positively, suggesting practical steps for individuals and organizations to foster a culture of continuous improvement.
- Tackling Performance Anxiety
- Eduardo offers insights into overcoming the performance anxiety that is prevalent in corporate settings, proposing a shift towards a learning-focused approach that values process over immediate results.
- Promoting Continuous Learning
- The podcast emphasizes the importance of continuous learning and development, with Eduardo advocating for a balance between performing tasks and learning new skills to adapt and thrive in changing environments.
Connect with Eduardo Briceño:
- Learn more about Eduardo and his work by visiting his official website at briceno.com.
- Follow Eduardo on LinkedIn and Instagram to stay updated on his latest projects and speaking engagements.
In Conclusion: Eduardo Briceño’s books provide invaluable resources for anyone looking to enhance their performance through mindful strategies that prioritize long-term growth over short-term gains. His approach helps individuals and organizations not just achieve more, but also find greater satisfaction in their pursuits. Whether you’re a corporate leader, a team member, or simply someone interested in personal development, Eduardo’s insights offer a fresh perspective on achieving success with integrity and balance.
You may also refer to the transcripts below for the full transcription (not edited) of the interview.
Interview Transcipt -Not EditedEmailDownloadNew TabGreg Voisen
Welcome back to another episode of Inside personal growth. And joining us today from San Jose, California is Eduardo brisendo, and this is the book, the performance paradox, turning the power of mindset into and action. Eduardo, thanks for being on today, and I really appreciate having you. How you doing? Doing great. Thanks
Eduardo Briceño
for having me, Greg.
Greg Voisen
Well, it's always good to have somebody like yourself who has an expertise in an area where I think so many people today are kind of like struggling, because there is so much I think, pressure being put on folks, especially in the corporate world for performance, and I think it causes, as people say, performance anxiety as well. So I am going to let the listeners know a bit about you first, and then we'll get into the series of questions. Ed warder is a global keynote speaker and facilitator who guides many of the world's leading companies in developing cultures of continuous improvement, innovation and high performance. I watched his TED talk just this morning, how to get better at the things that you care about, and he's got another TED talk, so there's two up there. The power of belief have been viewed more than 10 million times. Pretty phenomenal. Congratulations to you. Eduardo on that. He's won multiple awards. He's been featured in Harvard Business Review. Big Think, Business Insider, entrepreneur, Fast Company, Forbes Inc and so on. Early in his career, he was the co founder and the CEO of mindset. Works with the pioneer and growth mindset development services, and he started that at Stanford with Carol Dweck, which most of my listeners know, and he's held and he held that position for a decade. Prior to that, he was a venture capital investment with the sprout group, and he served on several for profit and not for profit boards, and before that, he was an investment banking analyst with Credit Suisse. And the list goes on and on and on. He's got his MBA, his MA from Stanford University. So he is definitely somebody who is knowledgeable about this. And it's just a pleasure having you on and let's just kind of kick it off because, and I think the main thing I hear today inside cultures of companies, and I think it really depends on the culture, but in a lot of cultures of companies at wardrobe, there's this need for the management, because they've got to meet milestones and goals and all kinds of things. And it's like people are working harder faster, and it doesn't seem like there's an end in sight. You know, technology has sped things up. A lot of things have helped to precipitate this, what I call environment, and it puts these, I would say, unrealistic expectations on a lot of people. You speak about the big idea that you present the first chapter and your reference, you call it chronic performance. Can you speak about that? And you know what you see going on, and potentially what you see is a way to resolve some of these issues, sure.
Eduardo Briceño
Well, you know, what will you describe? You know, to me, I think it can sometimes feel like a hamster wheel, right where we are working towards something, and the world is changing faster and faster, and there's greater and greater complexity and challenges, and the solution that we come up with is just to run faster, right, to make the hamster wheel turn faster. And that is unsustainable, like you said, but it also just doesn't work, because what happens is that what, what we tend to gravitate toward often, is just to perform more. You know, we want to perform. We want to deliver results, so let's just perform more so that we can, we can keep up and we can continue delivering. And what we don't realize is that the reality is that there's two different forms of effort. There's effort to perform, which is important, effort to deliver, effort to get things done, but there's also a different type of effort, which is effort to learn, an effort to improve, and that involves different activities, different attention than when we are focused just on doing what we already know how to do, try to do as best as we know how try to minimize mistakes. That's what I call the performance zone, and that's what we're often kind of stuck in. So if we're always in the performance zone, I call that chronic performance, and that keeps us stagnant, that keeps us at the same level of effectiveness. Versus what we need to do is to combine that with a different form of effort, different strategies, different systems, which are designed to leap beyond the known, to experiment, to ask questions, to try different things. And it is the combination of those two things that allow us to increase our performance over time. Performance is good in terms of achieving our goals, but in order to achieve higher performance, we need to not just perform, we also need to learn and and and integrate these two things in our lives in sustainable ways so that we maximize our medium term and long term results.
Greg Voisen
Well, you know, you being a speaker and an author and a coach, and you know, coaches are usually about performance, right? It's like, okay, I come to a coach because I want to perform better. So the underlying theory is that I've always got to get better. And I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that, but you mentioned that performance paradox is a counter intuitive phenomena, and that chronic performance could be the reason that we're feeling this stagnation in some areas of our life. Um, what can people do to counteract the issue you said, to take a leapfrog forward, right? Okay, well, that means I have to step out of my comfort zone. That means I have to create a new mindset about the way I think about this. So I'd love to know what Eduardo would tell our listeners out there who have this performance paradox.
Eduardo Briceño
Yeah, so the performance paradox is the kind of counterintuitive reality that if we're constantly performing, our performance suffers. In order to improve our performance, we have to do something other than performing, which is different activity, which I call the Learning Zone. And so, great coaches, yeah, you might go to a coach to increase your performance, but in order to do that, in order to increase your skills, you have to engage in different activities that is different from doing the activity. And so great coaches, you know, like John Wooden you know, you hear what he teaches and what he says, and he's very clear that you need to do what you're saying. You need to get uncomfortable during practice. You might use your if you're weaker on the left side, you might use the left side a lot. Or you might go to the part of the court that is a weakness for you, or that is a strength with you, for you, but you're getting get uncomfortable, to get even better, and during the match, during the game, you're going to try to just win, and so you're going to go to what you think works best, and try to minimize mistakes, try to increase your results at that match. So So for us, yes, getting, you know, uncomfortable out of what we already know how to do is critical in order for us to increase our skills, like you're saying,
Greg Voisen
Yeah, you know, I I reflect back on what you're talking about. And Steven Kotler has been a guest on this show so many times, and you know, he talks about his flow Genome Project and all the things, any and flow in particular. And you know, for so many people, they would love to attain this euphoric state of flow, right? It's like everything is timeless. It just kind of like I can sit here, and we all know we've had moments or segments like this where everything just kind of syncs together. Our performance is amazing. Whether you're a runner or you're a basketball player or you're an employee inside of a company, what might you tell somebody, from a standpoint of some of the things that they could do to actually get to that flow state where they are enjoying right? Because we look at employee engagement today, it's at like an all time low all the time. Every time I see it, it's like 30% maybe it's even less than that, but that's part of the issue, isn't it? Eduardo,
Eduardo Briceño
yeah. Well, you know, flow is an interesting thing, and so so with flow, you, I think so. So there was a, there was a debate between, kind of the the world expert on deliver practice, which is Anders, Ericsson, and the world expert on flow, Mihaly, she kiss my Holly. And they were kind of going back and forth on, can you, can you be in a in a state of improvement, in a state of flow? And, you know, I think when, when you're engaging in something called deliberate practice, which is when you are outside your comfort zone, you're working on a very specific skill, back and forth, uh, trying new strategies, getting feedback between each iteration and and it's, it involves a lot of effort, a lot of concentration, that that can feel, often not in a state of flow. It doesn't. It is not it can. It can feel flow, but it can. It doesn't have to in a state of flow. Usually you are performing, but it performing at a at a high level of challenge, but it's not too challenging. So it is, it is it is right at the edge of what you can do well. And so you are really achieving things really well. And you are, you know, at your peak, at that moment. And I think of it more as a state of performance, right, as a state of learning, but it is where you're exploiting your skills as best as you know how, and you get into a timeless, fantastic place. And so there's a place for that, and it's a magical place. And for me, I mean one, one way that I think is is required for flow is to be focused on one thing. So often in this today's world, we are so kind of distracted with notifications, and you can't be in a state of flow if you are, you know, getting dinged with messages and, you know, other things. So you need to be kind of blocking your environment and focus on that one thing that you're going to be kind of deeply engaged in. This one, one of the requirements for you to get into that state of flow. For me, that's the most important one. But also, you know, connecting with something that you care about, that connects to your purpose and that you feel like, is something that that is important for you to be engaging it.
Greg Voisen
And I think you think, I think what you just said at the end, something you care about and that you have a love for and a compassion for, really makes the difference in getting in flow so much easier, because all of the chemical releases in your body than dorothens and the oxytocin and all the things that you get the reward from, they continue to come in. And that happens in that state of flow, whether you're a skier or a mountain climber or all the other things that we were talking about earlier. Now you and I have a common friend, Chip Connolly, and you've been through the modern elder Academy, which is facilitated by Chip and sometimes other people as well. But he was recently on the podcast, and he and he's been on the show several times before, and and I love chip, and I love what he's doing. And you did that inward journey. You took that time to go away and do that retreat. What did you learn and what could you convey to the listeners? Because, you know, he puts it out there as kind of a midlife thing. Well, you don't look like a guy that's in midlife by any means. You look pretty young. But the point is that midlife is being pushed further and further and further out, right? Maybe they even call mid life for a person like me, who's 70 years old. So the point is, is that, what did you take away from it, and what? How could it actually affect people positively, like it did yourself?
Eduardo Briceño
Sure, yeah, I loved going to modern elder Academy and chips become a dear mentor for me, and he would consider both of us midlife, for sure. I'm 49 years old. And, you know, people who go to modern elder Academy are, you know, from their 20s to their 90s or further. And and it's more is a wisdom school or that they they talk about kind of a being, a wisdom school or a school for for midlife, like you're saying. And one of the things that it made me reflect on is that in in through adulthood, we are going often through different transitions, right? We might our body changes, we might move, we might shift jobs or industries, or we might get married or get divorces, or our parents might, you know, go through transitions that affect us or our kids or parenting, etc, and and there's no support in society to help us learn about those transitions and the next chapters in our lives. So we have kind of schooling support for childhood and and adolescence, but then we're sort of out in the wild, and then we're just supposed to know what to do, or just to perform life and work. And so to the I love what they're doing and being deliberate about providing kind of support in the learning space and wisdom for people to navigate life and to continue to grow throughout lives, and to continue to go into experiences that are different from what we've done before, and that makes life so much richer, right? Rather than just do the same thing over and over and stay in that hamster wheel throughout life, it's like, how do we get to different experiences? But we need to learn and expose ourselves to other, to ideas and to wisdom in order to navigate those transitions and those new chapters. So there's tons of activities a beautiful place, and one of the things that that is beautiful about it is that is the sense of community. You know, people who are together going through experiences of growth in adulthood and supporting each other in that way and how important that is in pretty quick we told we've talked about, you know, mindset and, you know, effort and flow, and those are all things that happen inside of us, in our minds and as individuals, but all of all of that is affected so much by the people around us, and so The community that we form, and what the community values and the habits that those communities form, those affect us so much and affect our quality of life and our success so much.
Greg Voisen
Yeah, I think like any play, any retreat, hopefully you feel safe and you feel vulnerable and open with the people around you, because they've either experienced or are experiencing the same feelings and emotions you are. And that's what chip has created with that modern elder Academy. I've been to many, many meditation retreats on the orcas islands, and I find that the people that come there literally are the same kind of folks, and we have a lot of things in common, and it's easy to open up and share. Now you speak about what you refer to as the PErforM, learn curve. Okay, now you've spoken a little bit about it and then on the fringes, but can you explain this concept and how it can help the listeners overcome performance paradox, because you said, Okay, we got to go to this learning point, so we have to stretch a little bit like you were saying in the basketball courts. John Wooden, right? It's like, how are you going to look your left side, your right side? And I think a lot of people get comfortable, and they don't want to be in discomfort. And there are elements of discomfort which are going to be required for you to stretch, to to grow, right? So explain how you make that simpler or easier in people's mindsets to say, hey, I can actually do this.
Eduardo Briceño
Sure. Yeah. So you asked about the PErforM, learn curve. That's just a visual representation that shows that at one end of the spectrum we've talked about, if we're constantly performing, our performance suffers. It's lower. But it's also true that at the other end of the spectrum, if we're constantly learning, then our performance also suffers because we we don't get things done, we don't contribute to other people. We don't actually achieve anything, if we're only learning and purely learning, however enjoyable that might be to some of us. And so for us to achieve, whether it's our personal goals or our professional goals, or any other goals, our medium and long term goals. We have to have a balance and an integration between these two zones of performance and learning. And so if you think about the kind of medium and long term results, it is a it is kind of like an inverted U to U curve, right where you know, if you're purely performing, you're you're at a low level of of goals and achievement. If you're purely learning, you're also low, and it's somewhere in the middle where you're maximizing your medium and long term results. Now if you're only looking at your short term results or your immediate results, the way to maximize that is through the performance zone. And so if you really you have a big project due this week, and you just have to get it done, and that's the only thing you care about, it might make sense just to disregard learning for a bit and just focus on getting things done. And that's reasonable to do for the short term. But the issue is that we we, if we are doing that every single week, then we just stay at our current level of performance. So so the solution, like you're saying, is to integrate the learning zone into our lives, and like you're saying, that can feel uncomfortable in some ways for some of us, learning certain things can feel comfortable and enjoyable and really great. But an example is, you know, my my wife and I want to both speak more Spanish to get better at Spanish, but that feels uncomfortable in our relationship, because we're more comfortable speaking English to each other, and so it helps me to remind myself that it is supposed to feel uncomfortable speaking with my wife in the language that is not the language we usually communicate with, and that associating that discomfort with something that I want to achieve, which is getting better at Spanish, helps me engage in that experience now, or, you know, I I also have, about a year ago, started taking cold showers because it's kind of healthy, but it also is reframing it as a way to train myself for discomfort and to lean into discomfort. That has also helped me, you know, get into the cold shower, because I know it's good for me.
Greg Voisen
Well, the next thing you'll be doing is cold plunges. If you haven't done that yet, my son does him every morning. He's got a cold plunge in his garage, and so I know it. I think he said it's at 34 degrees. So he said he can get about three and a half minutes, three or four minutes, but it is definitely a wake up call, as they say. But look, you mentioned this Learning Zone, which we've talked about, and it's about inquiry. It's about experimentation. It's about making reflect and reflecting on mistakes and implementing adjustments on the journey toward greater excellence. As you say in the book, what is the transformative power of moving between the two zones? Because you said, hey, the one end is the Learning Zone, right? And that might be the stretch, but we really want to be somewhere kind of in between.
Eduardo Briceño
Yeah, we want to be both getting things done and contributing and achieving things and evolving and transforming throughout our lives, and we need both of those zones in order for us to do that. And so life at some point can feel like boring and stagnant and like we're just in a linear, you know, habits of just inertia, right? Of just doing every day the same thing. And so when we think about transformation or evolution, I think a more interesting life, a more fulfilling life, is one where we are changing ourselves through our lives, through our lives. In order to do that, we have to engage in both zones.
Greg Voisen
Well, you know, the body seeks much of the time homeostasis and where now we're talking about the physical body, but I think also the mind, depending on your mindfulness and meditation practices. And you mentioned that the learning zone and the performance zones are states of mind. So speak with us about, oh, we can shift the mindsets for a more balanced work and personal life. Because, you know, it's one thing to stretch the body, push it, push it to a new heart level, rate, run a little bit faster, lift, heavier weights, all of the kind of things that you can do to the body. It's another thing when it comes to the mind. Because I think many people, if you ask them, I think this statistic still holds true. They haven't read a book since high school. And you know, when you think about the number of books that Amazon has and the number of people that I have on the show, and the number of books that I've actually profiled, it's hard for me to believe that people don't do that, but there's so everything is so fast they don't feel like they have time. So you got a state to get these people, to stretch the minds, the mindset.
Eduardo Briceño
Well, you know, it's funny, I I didn't use to read at all until I was in my 20s. And the reason was that growing up, I only experienced really boring books, like when I went to school, what we read was textbooks that were just facts. You were just supposed to memorize. Things that were not relevant to me, they didn't seem interesting, and the only purpose of the textbook was to pass the test. And I didn't have any other books like I never you know, I didn't read any books that were interesting to me, and so I always associated reading of books with things that were really boring, until I was in my 20s, I married my wife, Alison, who is an educator. She's a professor of education in a university, and she teaches teachers how to use children's books in the classroom, in schools, and I, she exposed me to amazing books. And now I read, you know, every night, and it's I love it so much, and both kind of fiction and non fiction, and it's just, there's like you're saying, there's just a world of awesomeness in books. And I listen to podcasts, and I get myself exposed to different things in different ways, but I can, I can relate to people who don't read, especially because in I think in school, we we teach that reading is boring, and I think that's changing, but, but, but, yeah, we haven't. A lot of us haven't discovered the magic of books, but, but when you say that the two zones are states of mind. Yes, it's about a lot of it is about what we're paying attention to. Like, for example, there's a research study that was done that was looking at people's brains in a brain scan machine as they were solving problems inside of the machine, and what they realized is that some people, they were paying attention. Their brain was very active when they were getting information about whether they got this problem right or wrong. They just wanted to know whether they were right or wrong. But they were not paying attention at a different time, which is at the time when the when other people were were making, paying attention to the mistakes that they made. So when the machine was telling them what they did wrong, and they had opportunities to learn what they did wrong and to think about those things, and it is the people that that paid attention to that that learned something and were able to get better in the subsequent problems. So their performance increased over time, but only if their brain was active when they were getting information about what they did wrong. Versus some people didn't want to think about that, because it made them feel badly about themselves, right to think about their mistakes. And so when I say that the Learning Zone is a state of mind. In the Learning Zone, we have to pay attention to the mistakes that we're making, to the hypothesis that we're making, to the experiments we want to to to to execute, and how we're going to learn whether that works better or not. We want to be asking questions. We want to be listening better and asking follow up questions. That means we need to be really actively listening. And that's all about what's happening in our brain and and that's what I mean. You know, people can be solving problems, but it is, what are they paying attention to? Are they paying attention to what they can learn, or are they only paying attention to what they can already do and what they have gotten done?
Greg Voisen
That's a really good way you put it. And I think that you know that when people are curious, they usually want to solve a problem, so they're going to look at mistakes as a way to say, well, that's one way. I tried it, but it didn't work. So let's try a different hypothesis here. Let's go down a different road. Let's try a different way of solving this problem. And as I see, so many entrepreneurs are problem solvers. That's what they are, and they're highly curious, so there's this deep level of curiosity. They're also add. So they're all over the place, right? They can be and that's because they have interest in so many different things, right? But you might find it like, Okay, I got an interest in this, and have an interest in that. And I think if you're interested in things and you're curious, you are probably the kind of person that's going to look at a problem and the one where you made a mistake and you're going to find a way around it. You're going to find a way to actually make it work. So you mentioned,
Eduardo Briceño
yeah, can I go ahead? Yes, absolutely. I agree with you. I think in particular, you describe the successful entrepreneurs. You know, I think in entrepreneurship, there can be some traps where we might not get to a state of curiosity, like, for example, sometimes entrepreneurs get really enamored with the solution that they came up. You know, they see a problem, they also see a solution, and then they want to, like, sell people on their solution, and it doesn't work. And so that's when entrepreneurs don't find what they call kind of product market fit, as opposed to, you know, instead of falling in love with your solution, fall in love with a problem, right? And then, and then do that curiosity, and that kind of lean startup methodology, where you are testing hypothesis and, you know, being customer centric and iterating on what the solution might be in order to solve the problem you're going after. And that's that curiosity approach that you describe is a much more likely way to lead to success.
Greg Voisen
Yeah, we just had a gentleman on from Switzerland talking about how to create innovation. Innovation. It's the name of the book. It's a Wiley book, and it was interesting, as we were talking Stefan diefenbacher, the reality is, is that, you know, you have to create a culture where people in your company are creating you have to put a budget toward it. You have to have it be ongoing all the time. And, you know, we see iterations of products go from the iPhone 16, but really, are there revolutionary breakthroughs in innovation, and that's a big difference than seeing an iteration of a product like going from an iPhone 15 to an iPhone 16, right there, there's maybe a few things that have been incorporated in it, but for breakthroughs to happen, you really have to set it out there, and you really have to invest into it. So look,
Eduardo Briceño
then we have to so we have to create the communities, because it's not individuals that are doing this, it is a community of people who are valuing that experimentation and innovation and innovation and also the right systems so that you're, you're you're creating the right habits and structures in order to to create that innovation. Yeah,
Greg Voisen
most definitely. Now you mentioned the failure to prepare ourselves for this ongoing change is what economists refer to as present bias. Speak with us about present bias and how we can break free from it, because it look it's rampant, it's everywhere. And I don't, I think this is one of those things that's always there, but people don't. It's almost like it's blind. They never see it because they're really not looking for it.
Eduardo Briceño
Yeah, I agree. Present bias is kind of a cognitive bias that, as humans, we all suffer from, to overvalue the present and undervalue the future. So it leads us to under invest, right to overspend under invest. And the learning is a form of investment, right? It's an effort that we we make to increase our skills so that we can reap the benefits in the medium term and the long term. And so we have this psychological want for immediate rewards, which then put gets future rewards kind of away from us. But in addition to this psychological bias, there are structural systems in our society that exacerbate that. Like, for example, you know, in public companies, research analysts tend to base the value of the stock on the current net income. And so CEOs of public companies feel a lot of pressure to deliver to maximize the current net income, and that leads them to under invest in things like research and development, which would lead to those innovations like the next technology that can really make a huge difference for the company in the future. And so when CEOs feel this pressure that that cascades down the organization to just execute short term goals at the detriment of long term goals, and then that gets into the culture of what management is, what leadership is, what workplaces, even in private companies. And so how do we how do we get around this? First, we need to become like, aware of this cognitive bias and the system so that we can see them and then create some micro habits, I think, to help us think more about the longer term, right? And so, for example, one thing that I do every morning is I remind myself of, what are my goals like? What am I trying to what is my first my life mission, and what is my strategy? What are my goals and and that helps me, you know, start with the end in mind, and then figure out what, what do I need to do today to go toward those long term goals?
Greg Voisen
Well, that brings me to this, this concept, you and I talked a little bit about it. I told you that I did interviews with 22 mountain climbers that climbed all the highest Seven Summits. And in in this chapter, you call it the big idea, speak about learning by doing. And if you would, you know, kind of weave in some of the stories that you told in this chapter, and also speak about your learning while doing cycle. You've got this learning while doing cycle. And you had some great stories in this chapter,
Eduardo Briceño
sure, and you've met Alex Honnold and worked in the book. You know that involved him. And so I started the chapter with with a story about him. He's a climber. He has climbed lots of vertical rocks without any ropes, you know, just with his body, including El Capitan in Yosemite, which is just a huge vertical, you know, granite wall. And, yeah, and, you know, you know, you know, his strategy is more better than I do. But you know, when you're doing something like that, you you really need to build your skills to such an expert level before you get into that performance zone of going up the wall without a rope, because if you make a mistake, one mistake can cost you your life, right? And so you need to use ropes in the Learning Zone and to really try different strategies as you're going through the tricky parts of the mountain, and like you were telling me before, that, he has a journal, and he writes down, you know, the positions of the fingers, and he reflects on what he's doing and what's working well, what he might try differently next time. And that is that requires a lot of learning zone time. So he went up El Capitan like 40 times with a rope before going up without a rope, as an example. But most of us so that that approach can work. If you're a violinist or if you are an acrobat, a gymnast, you need to be kind of on the learning zone with a net underneath, or like foam blocks, taking risks and falling and, and, and that's great, because you're you have something that you are an expert on, this very specific but most of us, our jobs are very complex. They involve lots of different skills. The world is is changing in many different ways, and, and so for us, most of us, don't have a ton of time to just devote hours to a Learning Zone every day. And so I think the biggest opportunity for improvement in for most of us is not to block long, long blocks of time to devote to the learning zone only, but it is to shift the way we work, the way we get things done, so that we're getting things done at the same time, but we're also improving, and that's what I call learning while doing. There's this term learning by doing that that is, you know, well, you know, known, but it's a little bit, I think it's a little bit confusing, because it implies that if you just do, then you will learn, right? Learning by doing. But in fact, learning by doing comes from theorists on experiential learning. And if you read what they wrote, they say that you don't learn, like John Dewey, for example, he said, You don't learn from experience. You learn from reflecting on experience. So you have to do something other than just do in order to learn. And they came up with cycles that that looked kind of similar, but it looks usually they look like something, like you try something, or you have an experience. And then after experience, you you reflect on your observations to try to figure out what happened there, right? And you know maybe what worked well, what didn't go well. And then you develop a hypothesis of how the world works, or how you know this skill works. And then you test something that that okay, I'm going to try this differently next time. And so you try that different thing, and you have that experience. And then again, you go through that cycle. You reflect on how that went, and then you develop a hypothesis of how the world works, and that's a cycle that involves different activities than just doing the activity over and over again. And so if we just go and do, do, do, do every day in the same way, and we don't stop and reflect and figure out what to change and do differently, then we just we get stuck in that hamster wheel, and then we feel like we need to just run faster and faster and faster. And we don't, we don't make progress, because we're doing the same thing.
Greg Voisen
Yeah, very well put and I'll and I'll segue here to something that I think almost anybody listening this podcast can understand. If you know, look it, YouTube has really been such revolution for people that want to do things. And if you want to learn how to do something, you go find a video about it. You probably type in almost anything, and you'll find a video. And then you can see somebody doing something, repairing something, fixing something, whatever. And I think it's become like, I'm just going to use this for an for so many people to go to as a default, to watch someone do something and go, I didn't know how to do that. Let me try. I can do that, and feel a lot more confident if that person can do it, I can go ahead and try this, and the end they succeed. And I love the fact that we have taken it that way, and I find that AI is doing the same thing. It's revolutionary, but we're finding new ways of doing I was watching the 60 minute special about how it's being used in the classroom with the kids. The Khan Academy now has got this new piece of software with AI in it, so the kids can't go get their papers done through AI. It actually asks them questions to prompt them, right? So I find this is just fascinating where we're going with all this technology. And I'd like for you to speak about the six essential learning zones briefly, because we don't have that much time left, and the cornerstones of change, as you call it, because I think these are the most important things. It's a way for somebody to put a label on it. And I'm going to tell all the listeners, go out to Amazon and get a copy of this book. There's a lot of illustrations in this book, there's a lot of questions, there's a lot of things to prompt you, but this is really a great book. If you're finding yourself in this performance paradox, it'll put your mind at ease, because he's giving you strategies that you can walk away from after reading this book and then highlighting it and rereading it again, hopefully, or listening to it on an audio book. Any way you have to get this book, you can get it. And the point is, is that it will help put your mind at ease about how you can progress to the next level without eye levels of anxiety and stress and all the other kind of things. So what are those six learning zones strategies, and what's the cornerstone for change?
Eduardo Briceño
Sure. Well, first, thanks Greg and and, I think when you talk about kind of YouTube and AI and Khan Academy? Yes, there's, I think we live in a learner's paradise and in a non learners pit, right? So there's so many amazing tools and resources and content for us to learn and explore if we are, if we have the mental models and the relationship with learning where we don't. We're not about perfection, we're about progress and about exploration and discovery. There's just a world of joy out there for us, but there's, there's a ton of different learning zone strategies with we've spoken about some of them, right? We've spoken about deliberate practice. We've spoken about the importance of reflection. We've spoken about analyzing mistakes, not just making mistakes. We don't learn from mistakes. We learn from reflecting on mistakes. Another one is experimentation. And sometimes we think about experimentation as to performance, overly performance oriented. So we think we're going to try something, but we're going to just try it as a way to scale, as opposed to try it as a way to learn, first in a low, in a low in a small scale to figure out what works. And then once we we figure out what works, then we scale that, and we make it more performance oriented. So that's something that I explore in that chapter. I also spoke about the the important. I write about the importance of developing our mental models in our brain, rather than thinking about kind of the internet or AI as the substitute for our brain, right? It's because we can find so much information in online searches or in AI. We might get the impression that now we don't need to know things, but actually, when we know things, we can integrate those things in our brain and come up with innovative ideas. And so we need to both use those tools, but also use them to make ourselves smarter. And it's in the in that partnership that we can become a lot better. The final maybe strategy that I'll mention is feedback. You know, when because we're social animals and we are collaborating with each other and want to have an impact in our colleagues and our customers, is so so valuable to solicit feedback frequently and broadly. We learn so much about what we're doing that's helpful to other people what we're doing, that we could be doing better other people's perceptions, other people's ideas. And that's perhaps the most the most powerful learning zone strategy in work and life is to solicit feedback. The
Greg Voisen
feedback loop. It's so important, because once we get the feedback, the thing is, I have a feedback now, so what am I going to do differently once I have the feedback, to try and do it better or improve on it? And I think that's the loop. And I think if people really are open to feedback, and they use that loop they're really going to propel forward. So in wrapping this interview up, what are three key ideas you want our listeners to take away from the book, and how can they really just apply them to their life, their work life, their personal life, to really make things less stressful, stay more in this learning zone and be more How do you want to say, have a level of discomfort but also comfort.
Eduardo Briceño
Sure. So say, first, to overcome the performance paradox, we need to integrate the Learning Zone and the performance zone, right? So involve both of these types of efforts. Second, we want to develop a sense of purpose, something that we care about, something that's important to us, so that we can direct these two different forms of effort in into something that matters to us, right? Otherwise, why are we going to work either in the Learning Zone or the performance zone? And third, we want to think about community, the people around us, whether you talked about kind of building a culture in entrepreneurship or in the workplace, right when we but we can do that in our personal lives or in our work lives, the people around us matter a lot, and so we can be deliberate about what we value, you know, talking about those things that we value, talking about the things that we care about, that we're pursuing, and the behaviors of how we interact with each other, so that we are helping one Another build those mental models, strategies, systems and habits that help us continue to learn and grow as well as achieve in in work and life. And so for you, in terms of you, asked about, well, how do we do this in a way that's kind of discomfort, but also comfort through doing this, it through, like through small habits, right when, for example, the simple habit of reminding ourselves every morning of what we're working to improve. That simple habit, it activates the Learning Zone. It activates it reminds us that we want to go beyond the known and do things not for perfection, but for progress. And little by little, it changes our mental models. It changes the way that we think about mistakes and about challenge and about trying new things, about feedback, about all these things, so that we do become more comfortable and eventually like these things and want these things as life goes on.
Greg Voisen
So yeah, and I believe that mindfulness in the morning, a bit of gratitude, reminding yourself of your purpose, which you said you do. These are small little steps. Being grateful for everything that you've got is a small another small little step. The other thing is, is just how you treat your body exercise, the routine. And I think people that have routines, when you get out of a routine, you have a tendency to not feel as good about yourself. You have a tendency to be more depressed. So I can't say it anymore, that if you're going to stay in this learning zone that do the things that you would naturally do, and then push one additional step further in that learning arena, in the Learning Zone. And I want to let everybody know that if they want to learn more about your book, your offerings, your speaking, your workshops, everything, go to b, r, I, C, E, N, o.com, bursino.com, and there you will learn more about this. There's a press room there. You can contact Eduardo as well. I really want to thank you for being on you've really given our listeners a lot to think about, a lot to actually say, Okay, if I picked up this book, how could this change myself and the way I learn and the way that I actually kind of push my comfort zone, push me out of my comfort zone to do something differently, and you've done a great way of putting it to people so that they understand it easily. So thanks for being on inside personal growth and sharing your insight and your wisdom today.
Eduardo Briceño
Thank you Greg for having me, and thank you for all you do.
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Inside Personal Growth with Greg Voisen · Podcast 1189: Learn How to Calm Your Mind, Break Free from Stress, and See the World in a New WayIn this podcast episode, we dive into a fascinating conversation with Clement Decrop, the author of The Idea Space: The Science of Awakening Your Non-Self. Clement’s work combines science, philosophy, and mindfulness, offering readers a transformative framework for understanding consciousness, creativity, and personal growth.
Clement introduces the concept of the “idea space,” which bridges the gap between modern physics and philosophical introspection, helping us view our thoughts, emotions, and sensations objectively. The ultimate goal? To awaken the non-self, a practice that can lead to greater clarity, reduced suffering, and a more harmonious life.
Let’s explore the key insights from this enlightening conversation.
The Idea Space: A New Way to Understand the MindClement’s The Idea Space is built on the idea that our mind operates in a space where thoughts and emotions can be observed objectively, much like we study stars or physical objects. By applying principles of physics and mathematics, Clement provides a structured way to describe the mind in relation to the universe.
He explains that the “idea space” has two key properties:
- Zero Measure: Thoughts and emotions are intangible and invisible to others, making them appear as “nothing.”
- Uncountable Depth: The impermanence of thoughts shows that they constantly change and cannot be fully measured.
By understanding these properties, we can begin to detach from our thoughts and reduce the suffering caused by over-identifying with them.
Awakening the Non-SelfOne of the central themes of Clement’s book is the concept of the “non-self.” He argues that our sense of self—our name, identity, and attachments—can often cause stress and anxiety. Instead, by recognizing the illusion of the self, we can gain freedom from unnecessary suffering.
In the podcast, Clement shares a practical exercise: Mindful Awareness. This involves paying attention to sensations, such as focusing on your left foot or counting your breaths, to anchor yourself in the present moment.
Clement also emphasizes non-attachment, drawing on Buddhist teachings, to help us live more peacefully. As he puts it:
“Whatever has the nature to arise has the nature to pass away.”
Practical Tools for Everyday LifeFor those seeking actionable advice, Clement shares his “Three Me’s” method for decision-making:
- Past Me: Reflect on how past actions and experiences have shaped you.
- Present Me: Assess your current mindset and feelings.
- Future Me: Prioritize long-term goals and aspirations.
This technique encourages balanced decision-making by aligning your past, present, and future perspectives.
Key Takeaways from the Podcast1. Embrace Impermanence: Everything in life changes, and recognizing this can reduce stress and suffering. 2. Use Mindfulness: Simple practices, like counting your breaths or observing sensations, can help quiet the mind. 3. Understand Perspective: The “Sunset Conjecture” reminds us that each person’s view of the world is unique, fostering empathy and connection. 4. Detach from the Self: Letting go of rigid ideas about identity can open the door to clarity and purpose.
Follow Clement DecropFor more insights into Clement’s work, follow him on social media and explore his book:
- The Idea Space: The Science of Awakening Your Non-Self
- Official Website
- YouTube
Final ThoughtsClement Decrop’s The Idea Space offers a groundbreaking way to explore the mind and unlock its potential. Whether you’re new to mindfulness or looking to deepen your practice, his ideas can help you reduce suffering, embrace impermanence, and live a more intentional life.
Ready to awaken your non-self and transform your perspective? Dive into the world of The Idea Space today!
You may also refer to the transcripts below for the full transcription (not edited) of the interview.
Interview Transcipt -Not EditedEmailDownloadNew TabGreg Voisen
Welcome back to Inside personal growth for another great addition with Clement Decrop, and Clement is joining us from you're in Santa Monica. Is that right? California? Or where are you exactly?
Clement Decrop
Venice Beach, right next to it.
Greg Voisen
Venice Beach. They're like, you know brother, sister, so he knows I used to go to USM University of Santa Monica, and I got a master's degree in spiritual psychology up there. And wonderful place to be. We're going to be talking about his book called The idea space, the science of awakening your non self. Okay, he didn't say your true self. He said, You're not so. And we also in there, he has a deck of cards, which you can get at his website. And I'm going to give out the link to that website as well, which will actually be in our blog. But for our listeners, it's the idea space.io the idea space.io, and let me let our listeners know a bit about you. Clement Decrop, he's an author and inventor and a mindfulness advocate. He is the visionary author of the idea space, the science of awakening your non self, a transformative book that explores the intersection of science, philosophy and mindfulness and with a unique perspective blending his background in business leadership and passion for personal growth, Clement introduces readers to the concept of idea space, a revolutionary framework for understanding creativity, consciousness and human experience. Clement's work is rooted in belief that by challenging conventional notions of the self, we can unlock greater clarity, purpose and fulfillment. As a thought leader, speaker and advocate for mindful living. He is inspired individuals to rethink how they perceive reality and awaken to their full potential. Well, we got a full plate here Clement, so let's get down to it and get dirty and get into it and see what those listeners really need to hear from you today. So the concept of the idea space, what inspired you to create the concept of idea space, and how does it bridge the gap between science and mindfulness?
Clement Decrop
Yeah, first off, thank you for having me here, Greg. It's a absolute pleasure. High five. Yeah, through the camp. But yeah, great starting question. So for me, the concept started was, so I'm a bit of a nerd. I love to read math physics. I did mechanical engineering in school, and I thought for how good science was, and physics, specifically, it had yet to provide a sustainable way to develop and describe the mind. And so around the time of the writing, I was doing a lot of meditation and a lot of reading, and I just tried to answer a simple question, which was, what if we applied the basics of mathematics to the mind, what would the what would that look like? Right? And so through this sort of question that I asked, I kind of got answers in the in the way of like, All right, well, what are the elements of your quote, unquote idea space, which is, like you said, that mental model for the mind, what are the properties which ended up being it has zero measure, which means it looks like nothing to everybody else, and it's impermanent or uncountable, and so it kind of really divulge from there. And the whole kind of goal was to just have all these properties that we have in mathematics and try to map those to the observations that we have of the mind, so that we can describe it in a way that's congruent with modern physics and makes it so that we can talk about our mind objectively, so that we can divorce ourselves from our thoughts and view them as objectively as we would, stars, computers and everything else in this world. Well, it seems like
Greg Voisen
you might have been influenced by quite a P quite a few people I don't know, but I'm thinking to myself that David Bohm may have been somebody that you read, or he was a physicist with the electronic phenomena known as the bone diffusion. Who were some of the people that influenced you to take all of these basic concepts and put it into the idea space? Who would you say was your biggest influence? Yeah,
Clement Decrop
there's good quote by Steve Jobs was, who says one way to remember who you are is to remember who your heroes are. So for me, I think that the big influences would be Steve Jobs himself for just like how you want to lay something out in some way, Richard Feynman and Albert Einstein for just the creative aspect of science and physics. And then the last one, Elon Musk for just like the pure grit and grind of getting something done. But for the book, I think the biggest one would be Richard Feynman, just because he was he had a knack for being able to convey very dense information in an easy to understand way with a lot of pictures. And I try to do that in the book. I understand it's still a little dense in some parts. But for my first attempt at a book, I think it was a fun job, a fun time.
Greg Voisen
Yeah, you know, there's so many people out there, and I was actually quoted in a book, and I'm trying to remember, but he was the guy that had the the theories. I'll, I'll think about it in a minute. He traveled the country, and he was the geodesic dome guy, and went around the country talking about it, and he had a huge audience, which was interesting because it was both scientific, spiritual and philosophical, all in the same nature. So you mentioned that awakening is a non self is a central goal of the book. Can you explain what this means and how it can transform someone's perspective on life? Because let me repeat that for the listeners, it's the awakening of the non self is really the goal of this book. So if you get this in the first five minutes, you're going to get the whole interview, even if you turn it off. Now,
Clement Decrop
yeah, that's funny. So I'll break down what awakening means, and then non self means, and then kind of put the two and two together. So awakening means to see what reality is not, and it's very similar to what science is right. In science, we don't try to prove anything is true. It's all about falsifiability, right? You start with a hypothesis, you test your hypothesis, and then you can either reject your hypothesis or fail to reject but at no point can you prove something to be true. And so I think awakening is that adopting that same mind state of science where you're just relying on falsified viability and skepticism to look at the world. Non self, on the other hand, is this concept that I your name Greg is simply another appearance in your idea space. And so the best way to understand this is by a quote by Richard Feynman, who says, What is a chair? When we look at a chair, we can take look at it and see, okay, some atoms are chairs are some atoms are paint, some atoms are dust. And so in order to be able to define what a chair is, very precisely, is impossible. And so we deal in terms of idealizations and approximations. And so, in a similar way, your name is just one layer of your non self, right? If I zoom in, I see molecules. Zoom in more atoms. By zoom far away, you become a state, a country, a planet, and so on and so forth. And so to say where you start and where you end is very tricky. And so the whole idea of awakening your non self is to again see what reality is not by showing you that this idea of the self that we have that's very traditional with our names, that we're taught at a young age isn't necessarily like the truth, quote, unquote, and how this helps people is that there's a lot attached to our names, right? Like what I want to do, or do I want to be, what I have to do in life, and all of that can cause a lot of suffering and a lot of anxiety. And so by being able to take that step back and look at the whole situation objectively, opens you up to really do what it is that calls you.
Greg Voisen
Well, it's interesting. Interesting because it in Freud, it was the I or the it. And the reality is, is that when we're coming from the eye or the ego self. It's very hard. And even Steve Jobs would used to say before his meetings, because I've had Guy Kawasaki on here, who was basically his evangelist on several interviews, and he said Steve Jobs used to say to the programmers that come in the room, leave your egos at the door. Even though he probably had the biggest one, at least, he understood the concept of leaving your egos at the door because you weren't going to be able to solve the problem from the eye. You had to solve the problem from the it okay. Meaning one connected with all you know, we all have to be together here to do this. And as I didn't remember before, I have remembered now the geodesic dome guy that I was in one of the books it was written about was Buck Minister fuller. And so Buck Minister fuller being a scientist and philosopher, and just like you, kind of having some crazy ideas, the reality is, one of his was that geodesic dome. And if you don't know him, for my listeners, go get a couple of the books from Bucky, if you want to. Actually, they called him Bucky Fuller. It's definitely mind expanding. So how does the idea space merge the exact sciences like physics with philosophical introspection, and why is this combination so important in understanding consciousness, right? So Ken Wilber has been on the show many times. We just finished a book with Ken finding radical wholeness. Okay, well, so when you talk about radical wholeness, you're talking about the same thing you're speaking about Clement, which is, I am one with everything, okay, all right. And once you realize that it's mind expanding, it's consciousness expanding. So explain this idea space. Yeah.
Clement Decrop
So again, physics is this beautiful kind of tool that we have where we take mathematical concepts and map them to observations that we have of the world. And so your idea space is exactly that. It's a physical object. So it consists of your thoughts, emotions, sensations, perceptions and the empty set. And the empty set is intuitively nothing, right? You can think of a table that describes an apple. So it's and this has its colors, red, yellow, blank, right? That blank is the empty set. And in your mind, this is kind of like beginner's mind, when you approach something with a fresh mind state, without any preconceived perceptions or thoughts coming into it. So that's kind of like your object. Think of it as this, like wobbly little thing, right? And then your idea space has two key properties. The first is that has zero measure. So you can hold something in your hand. For me, I'm holding a pen, Greg, you might have like a phone or something, right? Clearly, you can see it. I can feel it. But if I were to close my eyes and bring to mind a mental image of this pen, I would see the mental image in my mind, but then you can't see the picture of the pen that's in my mind, right? No. And so correct. Everything in your idea space, all your thoughts, emotions, has zero measure, which means it looks like nothing to everybody else. And of course, this may change once Elon Musk figures out neural link, but for now, this is where we're at. And then the second property is that it's uncountable, which means that it's impermanent. And the simplest way to see this is just sit down and try to count all your thoughts as they go by. And what you'll notice is that as soon as you try to count a thought, another one arrives. And so these properties, again, just help make better sense of how your mind relates to the universe at large, right? And though the whole goal of it is to try to help detach your eye from all your thoughts, emotions, sensation and perception, so that you can view those objectively, which again, allows you to take that step back and in a lot of like philosophical practices, especially Zen and Buddhism, the whole idea is non attachment, right? Because attachment is the root of suffering, and so by having that non attachment, you're able to reduce suffering, which I think always is nice in life,
Greg Voisen
well, but I think, you know, the Buddha said even, look, and I'm a study of Eastern philosophies, and I'm a member of self realization fellowship. And I think people for years have attempted, through meditation and mindfulness practices, attempted to, I'm not going to say they get themselves into a different space. You call it idea space. It's a space that's more closely connected with the one with the higher spirit. This is a spiritual practice, right? And so I love where you're going with this, and you advocate mindfulness as a tool for exploring idea space. What specific mindfulness practices from your book do you recommend for people that are like beginners out here, because you're talking about something that, for many people, for their lifetimes, it's hard to grasp. Well, the thing you just said about, hey, how do i Quiet the monkey mind from all those thoughts that come through? You know, like, it's like the basic you say number one, I'm not certain you're ever going to quiet it to a point where you don't have any of those thoughts coming through, what you can do is not be attached to those thoughts that come through, but your mind is going to continue to create those thoughts, unless you get into a Satori experience, which would be that complete out of body experience. So talk to the people that are beginners in my show here, maybe not as many beginners as there are people that have been listening to the show and are deeply into this. But I think it's a good idea to go there.
Clement Decrop
Yeah, 100% and I'll hit it on it for beginners and for more advanced practitioners, that way you get the whole spectrum. So for beginners, I think the big key is, like, Sam Harris has a good quote where the problem isn't thoughts themselves, but the act of thinking without knowing that we're thinking right and a good way, mindfulness is like an on and off switch. It's not this crazy, complicated thing. So for instance, like right now, if you're listening this, just be aware of your left foot. Clearly, you can feel the sensations in your left feet, left foot and the toes. And before I said that, you probably didn't really notice it, but it was still there, right? You weren't paying any attention Exactly. And so mindfulness is a simple act of taking that awareness that you have on life depending on what's happening, and it's super important, just because a lot of times we'll get angry in life. For instance, I got angry the other day about something that happened that was so silly, and it just kind of spirals. And if you don't notice it, you'll The spiral is going to continue happening. And so a good practical exercise is just counting your breaths. It's so easy, but you'd be surprised. I try to do it every night before bed, and sometimes I'll get sometimes I'll get to 16, and then I'm like, five thoughts, and I'm like, Oh, wait, I've forgotten what number I was on. It's time to start over.
Greg Voisen
Well, you know, people are into somatic breathing to get a much better experience, you know? And that's deep, deep, deep work. And I get that. So I love your advice, which is just count your breaths, right? The other thing is, I would say, and I didn't write your book, but don't beat yourself up over the action you took. Just realize the action you took, and the more you become aware of what it is that you did, the more likely you are to say that wasn't very serving for me, right? You just said, Hey, I got angry over maybe you were in a line or, who knows what it was, doesn't matter, but it was like you're all tense and angry about something. It's okay to have that happen. What's not okay is not to recognizing that you're making it happen. Once you recognize and become aware through mindfulness of what you just did, which was to release cortisol into your system versus oxytocin into your system, because you could have been happy. That's the problem. Now, how can we understand and apply the idea space concept to improve everyday decision making and or in our relationships. Because, look, we're all making decisions a lot of times during the day. Do I go right? Do I go left? Do I send this email? Do I not? Do I you know, do I pick up that phone call? Do I not? I mean, come on, there's a lot of decisions we make.
Clement Decrop
Yeah, of course. And I love what you said before this, by the way, because beautifully said. Just had to give you your props. But yeah, so for me, I have this simple trick that you can use called the three knees. And it's based on this concept of a world line in physics, where it just your world line is just like how you got to where you are at this point in space and time. And so there's past you, there's present you, and then there's future you. And the whole idea is that you give each of those an arbitrary, arbitrary weighting based on a decision you need to make. And that obviously depends on what you want for future you. And then in that moment, it'll be very clear whether you need to do something or not for like, a specific example for me, like, writing this book, past me would have been okay with it, very like indifferent, I would say, present me. When I was writing, it was like, Yeah, this will be fun, but future me wanted that financial independence to do something that would break free from the traditional nine to five, and so future me got a higher weighting than the rest of it, and I made my decision. You wrote the book? Yeah. There you go, yeah. So look back on it. A book. A book
Greg Voisen
is not an easy thing to write. People may think it, but it's one thing to think. It's another thing to do it. You know, I have three behind me. I just had Brian Tracy on here, 94 books. That man has written, 94 books. So it's, it's really pretty amazing. We were talking about his book on goals, but, but here's the point. You make a you made up a word, cleopen, this new word, I have a feeling it's part of your name and open, but I can't really say for certain. What does it mean for reality to be clopen, and what is the idea to help us navigate the dualities of this life? Okay, we talk about non duality, but the reality is, most people live in the Maya, okay? From an Eastern philosophy, it's Maya that Maya is what separates us from reality, okay, that experience of reality. So what is this Clement thing that you created here, bud? So
Clement Decrop
I wish, I wish I could take credit for it, but it's actually a math term, and it's the combination of closed and open. So they just were like, Let's throw it together. Oh,
Greg Voisen
there you go. You didn't make it up. I thought maybe you made it up, I
Clement Decrop
wish. But it's like, so in math, something can be closed or something can be open, and you wouldn't really expect it, but some things in this world can be opened and closed at the same time, which is very counterintuitive for like, if you're thinking of a door, a door being open and closed, right? Like, how is it open and closed at the same time? And so a good example of this is like, imagine the dress. Have you ever seen the dress? Greg, No, give it a Google after this, but essentially, it's a picture of a dress, and it's black and blue for some people, and white and gold for other people, but it's still the same exact picture. So like, depending on who's looking at it, they'll see two different things, but it's the same thing. And so cloak is that
Greg Voisen
because the cones in our eyes,
Clement Decrop
I would, I would think it's something in the eyes. You know, some people are
Greg Voisen
colorblind, right? And I've been known to be colorblind. I'd be surprised what I might see, right? But there are these cones, I think they're called cones, which are part of this optic nerve and related to this very complicated system that, you know, nature has created here. But that might be it, I don't know, but I like your I like the Open, Closed concept. But the reality is is, how does somebody out there listening to us get their head around it?
Clement Decrop
Yeah, that's a good question. I think it's understanding that two opposite things can be true at the same time. And you can kind of see this in like day to day to day life, whether someone's Republican or Democrat, like they may have two opposing viewpoints, but that may be simultaneously true, or for another physics based one, since I'm a physics guy at heart, this concept of like, particle wave duality, which is, when you're looking at a particle like light, does it act like a wave, or does it act like a particle? And in reality, it's both right. And so all around us is like this particle wave duality happening literally everywhere, and it's a coping phenomenon, right? It's two opposing thoughts that are coexisting at the same time. And though so for I think for most people, it's just like when you get an argument with someone, just know that you may both be right, you may both be wrong and not to attach too much weight to it.
Greg Voisen
You said, attach. So that leads me to this next question, impermanence, unaccountable depth, you say. You describe idea space as unaccountable depth and impermanent. Okay, so how does accepting impermanence lead? I mean, I think I know the answer to this question, but lead to a more harmonious life? Because, look, people, people, human species gets attached to the outcome all the time. It is part of the made up world that the media and the rest would like for everyone to believe. Now, I don't have any leaning toward the whole concept of deep space and who's running the world or any of that. I'm not going to go down that road, but I do go down this road of then this is a Eastern philosophy, this concept of impermanence, versus a Western philosophy, which is, go ahead and attach yourself to all the shit you want to attach yourself to, versus like, hey, what good is that doing for me to get myself so attached then I'm In anxiety most of the day over my attachment. So what would you like to add to that, to get a more homeowners life?
Clement Decrop
Yeah, again, beautifully said. I think the thing I'd like to add is a quote by the Buddha who said, Whatever has the nature to arise, has the nature to pass away. And I think that goes back to what you're saying, where we attach to a lot of things and that arises, and when that thought arises, we're going to attach to it, and it's going to stress us out, and it's like, oh, it's going to be here for the rest of my life. It's never going to go away. But just understanding that whatever has the nature to arise has the nature to pass away is it's like a sigh of relief, right? Like a weight off your shoulders, like you don't have to be that thing that you were in the past if you did some dumb shit growing up, because who didn't, and just be able to just attach right and reinvent yourself at every opportunity. I think that's kind of the beauty of impermanence in my eyes. Well, Bucha also
Greg Voisen
said, and I think I might have already said this, but I'll repeat it. It's always worth repeating something that's philosophical and inspires deep thought, and that is, you know, we have pain and we have suffering, but the two don't have to go together. We're all going to have pain in our life. The question is, are we attached to the suffering as a result of that pain? That's a choice. Now, many people out there might be saying, voicing your wacko, because pain and suffering go together. If you truly reprogram your mind the space in here, you can disassociate yourself with the suffering associated with the pain. There are people that go through surgeries that never get anesthesia, okay, there are people that have done all kinds of amazing things under excruciating amounts of pain, but didn't choose to succumb to the suffering. Okay, whether it's physical or emotional, right? The reality, that's the reality and and I know some people are going to say, I don't believe you, and I'm going to say that's your choice to believe us, or not.
Clement Decrop
Those people need to go check out. David Goggins, that man is lives pain, but no suffering.
Greg Voisen
So you talk about this illusion of the self. Why do you believe that illusion of self is a major source of suffering? We just talked about suffering. So hey, look, if this is the source to our suffering, which we were just talking about, and how can people begin to see through the suffering.
Clement Decrop
Yeah, I think the key concept that comes to mind here are the four noble truths which were kind of the best way to encapsulate all the Buddhist teachings in Zen and Buddhism. And the first one is that this, this sort of the truth of dukkha, which is Sanskrit word for suffering, frustration. And it's just this concept that life is not easy and we're all just trying to survive, right? Just think of it from like an evolutionary standpoint. The second noble truth is the source of dukkha, which is attachment, right? And desire. Whenever we attach to anything, and it's impermanent, it's bound to change. So if it's pleasant, we'll be upset when it leaves. And if it's unpleasant, that's a natural thing to not feel great, right? And that's kind of causing sorts of dukkha. And then that leads to the third noble truth, which is the end of dukkha. And the end of dukkha is all around the non attachment. And that goes into your question around why? Like understanding I is not like your whole self is, because I is what causes the most amount of attachment to anything. And so by detaching it, you're able to kind of fulfill that third noble truth, and then the last Noble Truth. Just to close it all off, is the path of the end of Duca, and that's the eightfold path, which is a lot of different things, but the main one is bright view, and that's just seeing the world just as it is, without all the stories that you tell yourself in the mind.
Greg Voisen
Well, I'm so happy we're having this podcast, because I knew you and I were going to get along tremendously. So see great minds think alike, as they say. So let's talk about your sunset conjecture. It's a fascinating concept that you introduced in the book. Can you break it down for the listeners? What is the sunset conjuncture and what can people take from knowing more about this?
Clement Decrop
Yeah, this is actually my favorite concept in the book, so I'm glad you brought it up.
Greg Voisen
You knew I was I sent you these questions ahead of time. I know,
Clement Decrop
but it's just it still makes me happy. But I think, like the beauty of the sunset conjecture is that it helps show that everyone's perspective of the universe is unique. I think we all fundamentally, on a deep level, believe that, but it's like the sunset conjecture helps demonstrate that. So the sunset conjecture is twofold. The first is that everything you see is in the past and you so let me take it back twofold. The first is that everyone lives at the center of their own observable universe, which is a giant sphere centered on you, where everything you see is in the past. The reason everything you see is in the past is because it takes time for light to travel from point A to point B. Time travels at a light travels at 186,000 miles per second. So for instance, we're seeing the sun right now. It takes eight minutes from like for the sun to reach us. So we're not seeing how the sun is now. We're seeing how the sun was around eight minutes ago. So we can kind of extrapolate that thought process back and back. So for instance, the center of the Milky Way galaxy is 26,000, light years away. Yeah, I'm
Greg Voisen
sorry, I gotta add this because it just seems so appropriate. We're seeing the sun as it was eight minutes ago, unless we had clouds in the sky, which what I'm saying here is this look, many of us like to paint clouds in the sky, even though it's sunny, okay? And it doesn't matter if it was eight minutes or eight years or eight or 80 seconds. The reality is, many of us need to remove the clouds so that we can see the sun. That was my point. I've just as you were saying, and I was like, oh god, I've got to say something about the clouds.
Clement Decrop
I'll say this though, having moved into Southern California, I don't get to see too many clouds anymore, so I'm happy
Greg Voisen
with that. Go ahead with your Go ahead, because this whole sunset conjecture, I get what you're saying, but you need to complete it, so I apologize for
Clement Decrop
No, you're golden. So yeah, first part everyone's at the center of their own observable universe, where everything they see is in the past. And then the second part is at the center of your observable universe lives your idea space. And like we talked about, your idea space has zero measure, so it looks like nothing to everybody else. And it's best kind of captured through a little short story. So imagine you're just walking on the beach at sunset, and you're like, oh, wow, it's beautiful. I see the guns, the sun's golden rays reflecting right off the water towards me, and then your friend behind you says, No, you idiot, the sun's golden rays are reflecting right off the water towards me. And so you're both right in this scenario, right? It's an example of a Clement situation, like we talked about earlier. But again, it just helps show that everybody's perspective of the universe is unique, and understanding that is helpful in life, just because it makes it easier to put yourself in somebody else's shoe.
Greg Voisen
Yeah, and, you know, look, it's this whole idea of all of our universes look different to each and every one of us. We're all we're all unique. And I think in in philosophies, and I'm, I'm, I want to bring this up because it there's billions of grains of sand, and when the ocean washes this up, right? And this is something that SRF talks about, is that there's actually even a little chant before a meditation about the grains of sand, that we're one of the whole we're one of all of those billions of grains of sand out there. Yet we think we're different, and we're the one, and that is the reality is that we are one of those piles of sand that's out there. When you look at it, it really makes you think about it. Now, how has your journey of exploring ideas, these idea space personally transformed you? And what do you think? What you would, you want our listeners to know?
Clement Decrop
Yeah, good question. I think, for me, I think the the biggest thing was just like being able to take a leap of faith in life. I think with like my generation, that there's a big emphasis on, like, going to school, getting the nine to five, grinding it out, retiring, and just living that life. And I think exploring the concept of an idea space helped me really put into practice this beautiful quote I love by Confucius, which is, everybody lives two lives. The second starts when you realize you only live one. I just think that's so powerful and so, like, underappreciated,
Greg Voisen
very hard, very powerful, yeah, Can I quote confuse this? Yeah, of course, that's a great yeah. But I
Clement Decrop
think that's like, the biggest takeaway I would have. Like, I think the idea space helps unlock that SEC that like the second life for yourself and helps you see the world very clearly, right? The eight way, eight fold paths we talked about, so that you can follow your passions and everything else you want to do
Greg Voisen
in life. Awesome, awesome way to put it. I just want to thank you for that. Now look for readers who are skeptical, skeptical about mindfulness or abstract concepts. How does your book The idea space make these ideas accessible and relevant? Because, hey, look, when you dive in this book initially, and I'm gonna say for my readers, this is not for the weak of heart kind of book. There's lots of graphs and illustrations, there's lines. It's truly been written by an engineer and scientist and, you know, physicist, kind of mind, his mind, on the other hand, our goal and intention today in this podcast was to simplify it, and I think that's what we've done. And if you really want the simplified version, just get this 100 mindful props, decks and practice the mindfulness stuff. So back to my question is, what do you want the readers to take away that would really be valuable for them today?
Clement Decrop
Yeah, I think that quote by Confucius is the biggest takeaway. And then for the skeptics out there. I think the whole idea is that not everything in life can be measured, right? As hard as we can try, it's just not possible. Like, I can't use a ruler or a sensor to measure what's going on in the mind of Greg right. Now, as much as I can, I can try. And so you need a new tool, right? You need a new kind of asset in order to help do that. And eventually, life, at the end of the days, and a single ai,
Greg Voisen
ai,
Clement Decrop
it'll be there. Yeah, I'm I'm all about it. I'm ready.
Greg Voisen
I think it's already reading my mind. I mean, I can write in chat GBT, and I swear it knows me, because it actually, like, finishes what I'm doing, and it's like, Jesus, I couldn't have done as good as bad.
Clement Decrop
Yeah, chatgpt is the best. Give it some that. And there's also suno.ai that makes music for you. There's runway that does text to video and mid journey for text to image. There's, yeah, the AI, it's
Greg Voisen
gone crazy. It's gone
Clement Decrop
I love it, though. I'm glad I do for it me for the robots. Everyone
Greg Voisen
tells me they're so afraid of this, and I'm like, There's nothing to be afraid of. They're not going to take over and you're worried about and even if they do, maybe they'll make this world a better place, you know? So the point is, is that I don't think there's much to be afraid of, although there are always soothsayers out there. So like in wrapping this interview up, what actionable steps would you recommend to somebody after they finish reading your book to deepen their understanding and begin their path toward awakening? Now I said, you know, if we just did an interview, as I said, with Ken Wilber on radical awakening, right? And that is our true oneness with everything, okay? Easier said, a little bit more difficult for people to understand. Can you give us the Clement version of that versus the Ken Wilber version of radical awakening?
Clement Decrop
Yeah, of course, I think awakening in life comes in many instances, right? It's kind of like the way that I describe it in the book is like in the universe at large, there's black holes, which is kind of like a rip through the fabric of space time that creates, like a supernova, big ball. And in your mind, something similar happens right a moment of enlightenment and the moment of awakening, when you rarely see what reality is not right. And so throughout life, you're going to have a lot of those, a lot of different moment of awakening. And the key is like, write it down. What if it's a quote that helps awaken you, a song that helps awaken you, or just like a dance or something just like write it down, because then in the future, you can always go back to them, read them, and it'll just make it easier to help navigate across your idea space and all those moments of awakening in time.
Greg Voisen
Well, one thing I can say, Clement, you have given me an awakening, and I want to thank you for being on inside personal growth, you've actually opened me up to a new term called open, which I didn't have closed. And open, I learned something every time I come on one of these shows, which is truly always marvelous, which is why I get it. It says that. It says, on the back of this book for this is the front, but on the back it says the world's most interesting book. And I would say it is because the perspective of which Clement takes. The other thing I would say is go to www, the idea space.io.io.io. I'll repeat that three times for anybody else who's still listening, because, you know, there's so many sub domains at this point. Yeah, I ran into one the other day. It was there. There's a dot. Love now, dot, l, o, v, e. Had no idea. So, you know, thank you Go Daddy, thank you GoDaddy, or whoever's out there doing all that, thanks so much. Well, Clement, Blessings to you. Namaste, my friend. Enjoy the rest of your day to day. Enjoy your holiday season, whatever you're doing. Thanks for being on inside personal growth and sharing your life experiences and your ideas based book and, more importantly, your 100 mindfulness cards. I actually think that's a jump start for a lot of people. Well,
Clement Decrop
thank you for having me, Greg. It's been a pleasure. I've loved the conversation.
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Inside Personal Growth with Greg Voisen · Podcast 1188: Learn How to Scale Your Business: Leadership Strategies, Innovation Tips, and Global Insights with Verne HarnishIn a recent episode of the Inside Personal Growth podcast, Greg Voisen interviewed Verne Harnish, author of Scaling Up: How a Few Companies Make It…and Why the Rest Don’t. Known as “The Growth Guy,” Verne shared his proven strategies for scaling businesses effectively and fostering leadership while navigating the challenges of exponential growth.
Verne emphasized the importance of focus in scaling, urging businesses to stick to their core products or services until they’ve maximized potential. Drawing examples from companies like Kind Bars and Google, he highlighted how staying true to your primary offerings is the foundation of sustainable growth.
Leadership has also evolved, and Verne advocates for what he calls “careship” over traditional management. Leaders who genuinely care for their teams inspire loyalty and performance, creating a culture where innovation and growth thrive.
Innovation, while critical, doesn’t have to be constant. Verne recommends aiming for one major innovation every five years and iterating on existing products in the interim. Companies like Amazon, with innovations like Prime and one-click ordering, demonstrate how a single breakthrough can transform an industry.
AI and predictive analytics are also reshaping business operations. Verne shared real-world examples, including companies using AI to predict trends and design products, saving time and resources while driving growth.
When it comes to scaling, Verne stresses the importance of four key pillars:
- People: Build and nurture a strong team.
- Strategy: Develop a clear, focused game plan.
- Execution: Implement processes with discipline and efficiency.
- Cash: Manage cash flow to fuel growth.
He also highlighted the value of engaging employees and fostering connections within the team. A strong company culture and supportive relationships are essential, especially during periods of rapid growth.
Verne’s advice extends to exit strategies as well. He recommends selling a business when it’s thriving and you’re still passionate about it, ensuring the best outcomes for both the owner and the company.
Looking ahead, Verne encourages businesses to think globally. With over three-quarters of the world’s economy outside the United States, exploring international markets presents enormous growth potential.
For a deeper dive into Verne Harnish’s strategies, check out his book, Scaling Up: How a Few Companies Make It…and Why the Rest Don’t here or visit Scaling Up.
Whether you’re a seasoned entrepreneur or just starting out, these insights provide a roadmap to scale smarter, faster, and more effectively.
You may also refer to the transcripts below for the full transcription (not edited) of the interview.
Interview Transcipt -Not EditedEmailDownloadNew TabGreg Voisen
Welcome you to the show. Good day to you, or should say, Good evening to you. Verne, how you doing?
Verne Harnish
Greg, it's good to see you. Thank you so much for having me on the show.
Greg Voisen
Well, I appreciate you being on the show, and I'm going to do a brief intro so people know who you are, and we're going to talk about your company and the many books you've written and how it can help business owners and people who are out there coaching as well. So Verne, thanks again for being on he's the founder and CEO of scaling up. It's a globally recognized organization dedicated helping businesses achieve exponential growth. He's known as the growth guy. Verne has over four decades of experience building leadership teams towards success. He's the author of multiple bestsellers, including scaling up how a few companies make it and why the rest didn't, which has become a cornerstone for entrepreneurs and business leaders worldwide. In addition to being a seasoned entrepreneur advisor, he's the founder of entrepreneur organization EO, which has grown 17,000 members across the globe. He's passionate advocate for strategic thinking, disciplined execution and fostering a culture of continuous improvement. If you want to know more about him and the scaling up business, go to Growth institute.com that's Growth institute.com there you can learn more about him. Well, thank you so much for being on. You know, the name of your company is, G, A, z, E, L, L, E, S, and I wanted to know number one, make sure I pronounced it right. How is it said?
Verne Harnish
Well, that was the old, old name we have been we changed the name to scaling up.com and that's where people can learn more about me. Is scaling up.com we changed the name years ago because nobody could spell it. Greg, oh, that's why these I didn't know how many else it was. Look, I thought it was a clever name because it was the technical term that David birch at MIT had given to growth companies in the economy. It's still kind of a term recognized by economists around the world. But look, we're not economists, and we thought it would be good to call the company after what it is that we do for firms, and that has helped them scale up. So that
Greg Voisen
is, I'm glad you, I'm glad you changed the name, because the actual other name is still out there and it shows in little spots on your website. So Well, look, there's a lot of business listeners to listen to this. This is we have business and personal growth, wellness, spirituality, or the four genres, and you've written a lot of books, but many businesses struggle with this scaling and sustainability. I know because I'm a professional business advisor, what is the common mistake leaders make during the scaling process? And what would you tell people, because you're the advocate advisor, and how they can avoid it?
Verne Harnish
Yeah, you know, I think in a word, it's getting defocused and trying to do too much. I fortune just did a piece I pointed to on the founder of Kind bars. I mean, look, this isn't Google, this isn't Facebook. This is, you know, a energy bar.
Greg Voisen
He was on my show. He was actually on the show here a couple of times.
Verne Harnish
Well, you know, he exited for 5 billion, and they asked him, like, what was the thing you most had to focus on? He said, keeping us focused on just bars. Everybody wanted us to go, given our brand into all kinds of different product lines. And he said we had not fully realized our potential in bars. So I had to just keep us focused. We saw the same thing with Google, Greg, you know, their word was search, and they took it from Yahoo. Yahoo never recovered. Nobody could figure out why we needed Yahoo. And then Google got distracted. You know, Nest thermostats and Google Glasses and all this other stuff. They form a new brand called Alphabet. Yet last year, they finally woke up and said, you know, 2 trillion of our 2 trillion valuations due to search. We think our next trillion is going to come from search. And because they got distracted, they let OpenAI and Microsoft and everyone else jump in there and stuck
Greg Voisen
away. There's some other business snuck away
Verne Harnish
search. So that's the key, is to find a very precise job to be done for enough customers. And I'd rather you trade chase that customer type around the globe then get distracted with product line extensions and everything else that happens.
Greg Voisen
Well, you know, there's a difference between iteration and truly extraordinary innovation. So you know, when you look at companies like Apple and it's another iPhone 16, or iPhone 15 to 16, or whatever it is that's an iteration of the product. You know, when people are truly whether they're spending five or 10% of their money on truly innovating something new, and what would you say? Because the reality is, they do need to innovate at the same time they need to keep track of their core business. But you can't lose sight of innovating. And I know that Google created the goggles this. I'm sorry Apple did, and it was a true failure for them. Yeah, those, those goggles, just didn't do anything. Yeah,
Verne Harnish
we know, in a practical sense, you need one innovation about every five years, and then it's iterations in between that. And that's a good, I think, kind of routine to get into five years, yeah, and, and the key is for you to address a real key constraint. So if you think about it, you know, Amazon started just in books, and that was the key. They stayed absolutely focused and started in books and stayed in books. Their next innovation was, alright, let's go ahead and add a bunch of other stuff. Then they figured out one click, you know, that was the real breakthrough. And they've, they've written one click forever. But then they ran into a psychological issue where people just didn't want to pay for shipping. You know, e commerce got stopped at about 4% of global, you know, retail commerce, until they introduced prime and got rid of that psychological barrier, which also, by the way, fueled the cash that they need because they were so unprofitable. You know, if you look at if you look at Costco, they've had one innovation membership fee, right? If you look at IKEA, they've had one innovation, and that is flat pack furniture. Now they've continued to iterate that flat pack furniture and their business model, but you don't need a lot. You can write, write it forever, right?
Greg Voisen
I think the the new documentary that just came out from Netflix is called buy now, which it shows about the consumerism and how Apple has really pushed, not Apple, Amazon has pushed this. Just push the Buy Now button, because that's the that's the way we get it now. You know your framework really emphasizes and this is important in any business. It doesn't matter if it's a three person operation or it's a 5000 purpose OP by operation, people, strategy, execution and cash if a company can focus on one initially, which area would you tell them to kind of prioritize? And if so, why? And I have my own thought, and I would say that it's cash flow. But the reality is that because cash flow is what kills most businesses. Yeah,
Verne Harnish
well, it is a flywheel, Greg and so what we emphasize, and we have a set of assessments that help you've got to enter wherever you think you need to enter on the flywheel. You're right. If you're not going to make payroll on Friday, it does this no good to go work on the other three and say, well, we'll get to cash a year from now. I mean, the business, you're going to be out of business at the same time if you're missing a key leader in the organization. If you don't get that in place, that's going to stop that flywheel, or you could have nailed strategy. But if your execution is sloppy, then that's where you need to bring your focus. So our framework is really designed to be flexible enough that each company situation is unique, just like we are as unique as our fingerprints. And so our goal is, and job is, to figure out, where do we enter that flywheel in order to then get get it spinning faster. Well,
Greg Voisen
the thing for my listeners is, at scaling up.com, you offer all kinds of free downloads. You always have, even before you were like the download King. So there's, you know, a lot of these forms and things that you could use immediately. They're there. So I just want to let them know that they could take advantage of that and and do it, and they get that at scaling up.com,
Verne Harnish
correct? Yeah. And I would, I would emphasize they'll see, next the picture of the books, there's a link, actually, to a free one hour. Course, it's 15 minutes on each people, strategy, execution, cash, and it's not a teaser. It really provides value. Look, I'm in this thing missionally, because I watched my dad scale up and then lose it all in the 73 recession, and Greg never recovered. And so if I can keep any entrepreneur from going through, my dad and our family went through, hey, it's been a good life.
Greg Voisen
That is probably what drives you every day. So that's what's important. There's always history somewhere, and there's always something that happened to someone that makes them so passionate about what they do. And I'm glad you told us that quick little story, because I had a similar story in my family. So you know, we talked, you talked about leaders and leadership. I have as many people on here, from Stephen Covey Jr to who you know, Marshall Goldsmith, talking about leadership. What qualities make a leader effective in a scaling company, right? And how can they develop those qualities in themselves and their teams? I think it's shifted. I just did a book here recently where Marshall Goldsmith wrote with with this other gentleman who's the head of Junior Achievement, and it was called Modern achievement, right? And really an interesting book around leadership. What would you say has happened in the world of leadership, and what qualities does a leader need today, in 2024 and going forward, versus some of the qualities that maybe we were talking about in the olden days don't apply as much. Yeah,
Verne Harnish
well, you know, it's interesting. One of the things that Jim Clifton, the CEO of Gallup, said, is, what we don't need is managers. That's what we have technology for. And Hubert Jolie, who wrote a great book the heart of business, I if there's any book that I encourage people to read instead of mine. It's his book on the turnaround of Best Buy, you know. And he 10x the valuation of a very, very tough business in a very tough business environment. And he now teaching at Harvard, where we host our CEO summits, and I've got a new appointment to Harvard, the global scale up fellow is he said, I think it's maybe even time to get rid of the word leadership, and he called it careship. Keith Ferrazzi, last week came out with a new book, and he called it teamship Instead of leadership. But I think it really comes down to one word, and that is, if you're going to get your people to care for your customer, your company and you they have to know that you care for them, and that's why, I think what our real focus is as leaders is to care for our people, who will then care for our company and Our customers. Well
Greg Voisen
as these leaders build a company and it's scaling, and it's in need of more capital, and it's in need of more innovation, and it's need of more engaged people like engagement levels are low. How can leaders ensure that their company's culture, because that's a that's the key here remains intact as they scale rapidly, and most of these companies today are in some level, as I would say, transition and flux, and it seems to be more consistent because we're moving so fast, so somebody, they have to be nimble, they've got to be all kinds of things. But what would you what would you advise and love
Verne Harnish
good? Well, let me back up just for a second. I don't want people to think that leadership is what the CEO does. I mean, the owner has to drive valuation and hire a CEO, and the CEO does have four jobs, and that is aligned around people setting the culture strategy. They are the strategist. We've got to then execute flawlessly, and then we've got to really be clever with our capital allocation. So it's and they got to get the right senior team together so they've got a lot of stuff they've got to do in order to make sure that they're driving the company. But if we're going to talk about employee engagement, the I prefer the definition of a CEO being the chief energy officer. What we're really looking at is every decision, every word we make, words cast spells, really either raises or lowers the energy. So there's two very specific things. Number one, setting an ambitious goal. The research is very clear that attainable goals are low energy and ridiculous goals are low energy. People want to be part of something that's ambitious. And man, when that rocket came back and landed on the landing pad, I mean the energy in that room of people who work days and nights in order. Elon
Greg Voisen
Musk, there he goes. Again. He does. And
Verne Harnish
if anybody, if, if you think, if you think as people hate Elon hate him bad. That could be further from the truth. But he's, he's accomplishing big things, and people want to do that. Second, Gary Hamel said, people do want coached. They don't want managed, but they want coached. And so what are the things we do to be a great coach? We can talk about. But number three, and this is the point I want to make. Gary said,
Greg Voisen
can I ask you a question? I hate to ruin your job, please. But from from Steve Jobs to Bill Gates to Elon Musk, it's, it's been said, and I've known, I've had interviews with Guy Kawasaki. I've had people that have worked with Steve Jobs. I've had people that have worked actually, my brother in law used to be Elon Musk's attorney, and here's the statements that they'll make. These men and women are brilliant. They are beyond brilliant, okay, but they're miserable son of a bitches to work for. Meaning they aren't really good with the workforce. I mean, they just want shit done, and they want it done now, and they will tell people, I don't think that bodes well or so. What would you say to these guys? Who knows one of them might be listening to podcasts? You know so well.
Verne Harnish
That's why I want to differentiate the CEO, the founder, from all the other people in the company. I, in fact, am a big proponent of not doing one on ones, for instance, as is Jensen at Nvidia, as is Brian Chesky at Airbnb, founder. CEOs suck at being coaches. They shouldn't be, and that's why they brought in an outsider in their case, Bill Campbell, the famous Bill Campbell, who came on and not only coached, and by the way, Steve Jobs had lots of coaches, starting with Regis McKenna and all the way up to Bill Campbell. And then Bill, you
Greg Voisen
know, at Airbnb, the coach was chip Connolly, exactly at Airbnb was the elder statement, right? And Chip and I have known each other for years, and he said, Oh, my God, I was working in a culture. Here I am in my 50s with these 20 something kids, right, right? So I think it really was valuable for the owner to realize the value of a chip. Connolly, and here's my point. Elon Musk, Steve Jobs need to recognize the value of having somebody like Bill, of having somebody like chip, versus them trying to do that themselves, because they're not good at
Verne Harnish
exactly so your question is, how do we get everybody else energized? We there's no problem with Steve being energized, with Elon being energized, with Brian Chesky be energized. They're the founders. They're in founder mode as right as Paul Graham said, what do we have to do to keep everybody else energized? And that is first set a big vision. That's what excites people. Number two, make sure that they've got the coaching. What was the last decision Steve Jobs made before he knew last well,
Greg Voisen
he basically brought in what's the guy's name? I'm trying to think that he brought in a great CEO.
Verne Harnish
Well, Tim Cook was already there. The last thing that he did is he established Apple University. He brought in the Dean from Yale, and he said, Look, I'm not going to be around anymore to teach and show the way. So we've gotta, we've gotta codify that. And I think it's a big reason why Johnny Ive was there to watch the soul that was designed Tim Cook was the CEO, watching people strategy, execution and cash and Apple University was there to teach everybody the apple way, very, three very important components. But let me get to the final thing that Jim Clifton discovered at gamba, the thing that really determines engagement and excitement and energy. And he says, Nobody believes this, but the research is clear. And then I'll share an analogy and a real story. Do I have a best friend at work. So what does that mean? I did work decades ago for Hewlett Packard, and I think one of the things that was exciting is that every Friday everybody would dump out of their offices on campus and go to a barbecue every Friday afternoon. If you watch Top Gun Maverick, I know it's a movie, but the scene that I show over and over and over to companies is that beach scene where they're out playing football and the commander comes by to kind of chew out Tom Cruise. What are you doing? We've moved up the deadline. You guys are out here playing, and it's, I get a goose bump every time I play that segment where Tom looks at the commander and said, Look, you wanted me to put together a team. Now you've got your team. I mean, these were the a a of a players, but they were set up competitively to choose the four teams, and hangman didn't get chosen, but it was hangman who saved the day at the end. So we've got a I've got a student, Jack little he was in my second MIT class I ever hosted back in 93 through 95 he went on to build math work 6500 employees globally, 1.2 billion in revenue. And I had dinner with him a few Saturdays ago, and we got talking about this, and he said the single most important thing they do is He most recently spent $25 million flying in all 6500 employees from around the world and their families, and putting them up in hotels and renting out Disneyland so they could all have fun together. And that's really at the heart of our quarterly thing. So with remote work, it's got even tougher for us to have those human connections, but if we can at least have one good friend at work, and where does that come from, your best source of talent is referrals, because you're likely going to refer in a friend or somebody you know, and the way you set up your onboarding can either create that friendships or not. So what's the company consciously doing to bond people? Like Tom Cruise did get taking everybody out on the beach and playing football?
Greg Voisen
Well, you bring up such an important point. I think, you know, recently, just last week, there's a psychologist on Adam Dorsey called super psyched, and he was talking about the loneliness epidemic. And I really do believe that in this country, you know, and not just this election, way before the election and the bifurcation of people and all that, there has been kind of this loneliness epidemic that's occurred, right? And now you got people that are at opposing views or opposing sides. I think we need to come together. And that brings me to a question, you know, when a company is going through an upheaval and then to remain, and when I say up people of growth, like, just like we're riding a rogue wave, man, we've really got to get on it. We got to stay on it. How can leaders ensure the teams remain aligned with the company's strategic goals, and especially during periods like I said, of this rapid growth, because stuff is being thrown at these people so fast, so quickly, to make decisions on and make choices and move forward to move the company's progression.
Verne Harnish
Yeah. Do you have children? Greg, I do, yeah, and I've got four. And if there's anything that Tom Meredith who really helped Michael Dell, scale Dell taught Michael and taught me was the same thing you learned in parenting you do with your company, you have a handful of messages and you've got to repeat yourself literally 100 times. So what does that mean? Practically? Who bear? Jolie said it in his book The heart of business better than I ever did, which is you don't have a strategy if you haven't named it. And that's part of that words cast spells. So for instance, when he went into turn around Best Buy, he called it renew blue. No military mission goes forward without without a name in the in the movie, it was called dagger. I don't know if you saw but Warren Buffett just went all in and Domino's stock. He's exiting Apple going into Domino's. Domino's stock is up 7,000% since it went public. It's outperformed Apple and Amazon and alphabet and their CEO, the beginning of this year, announced their five year strategy, and it's called Hungry for more and more is all capital letters, and it stands for the four pillars of what it is that they're going to focus on. Mark Zuckerberg last year called it the year of efficiency. This year, he called it all in and AI, what does that mean? First thing you gotta do is you have to name your strategy so that people can point to it, so that there's a rallying cry, and then you gotta repeat yourself a lot. So as you're walking around the company, you're like, Hey, Greg, what are you working on? Well, is that getting us more efficient, or what are you working on? Is that getting us more or what are you working on? Is that getting us, how are we using AI to do whatever? Elon Musk gets the famous algorithm that they actually have to a mantra they have to repeat during their daily huddle. So what's the key you pick, you pick a strategy, a focus, you give it a name, and then that's the power of the daily huddle, if we come back full circle. Jim Clifton said, Okay, everybody wants coach. So how do you coach people? He said, All you have to do is ask him one question, and that is, what are you working on? And what's in your way of achieving it? Now you've got all the coachable moments you need. Is what they working on aligned with the strategic direction, one of the four pillars of more, if you're at Domino's, or is it going to get us more efficient if it was last year at Facebook, and then what's in your way of achieving it? Then says, maybe we need to fix a process. Maybe we need to hire somebody. Maybe we need to get you some training and development. Maybe we need to get rid of it because it's stupid. But and that question is embedded in our daily huddle. So if I were to really answer your question, simply, you want to keep everybody aligned when things are moving fast the daily huddle. That's the first thing Steve Jobs did when he turned Apple around. It's the first thing Brian Chesky and the boys did when the pandemic hit, they went into a daily seven days a week, not just five days a week, and people laugh at us for pushing that, but that eight minutes will save everybody an hour and a half a day, if it's done correctly and it drives a line.
Greg Voisen
Well, you said, have a name and then have a huddle. And I do agree with you, because you have to repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat, you know, it's kind of rinse repeat, rinse repeat, until we get there, right, and then look for the challenges that are blocking it from occurring. And you know, you did just speak about technology. So I have a question for you. You know, AI is truly just been so rapid. You talked about Warren puppet going from moving out and investing into Domino's versus Nvidia, right? And you think about how fast these chips are occurring and what AI is doing to change the course of scaling business. So how can leaders like either embrace this, which most of them are, jump into it, use it to their advantage and really help it scale their business, probably even quicker.
Verne Harnish
Yeah, well, I think you need to hire some teenagers and and I mention it. So my latest column I just submitted for Chief Executive Magazine features co distributing out of Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. Coe distributing, they distribute office furniture. It's not Google or meta, it's office furniture. Yet, for the last five years, Greg, they've had a partnership with the University of Pittsburgh's data analytics department. None of the schools have an AI department. Yet, if you were to look in your junior college, your major university, it's called data analytics, and he's partnered with the professor, and every semester, he's had them do a data analytics initiative for his company, and the breakthroughs that they have had, because they don't have any biases, and they're young, and they're up on the latest technologies, and they've got time to work on it. He is now, now, just now bringing it in house, and he's hired two of the students that had worked on several of these initiatives. So to me, it's the least expensive and quickest way for you to really get some expert help for hardly anything. He pays him. He pays the professor that he funds the class $10,000 a semester. I got just John de Julius, the customer service guru. I got the class at Harvard. They're doing a project for him, and Harvard's not allowed to even take any funds. And they're going to solve a major constraint that John sees in his set of businesses with a group of students that I know will they'll nail the solution.
Greg Voisen
Well, it's, it's real practical advice, whether you go to your local university or junior college or wherever it might be, but you're right about hiring younger people who have the time, but even on top of that, give them an objective say, hey, you know, we're going to study the data we're getting. You know, in a lot of cases, to companies, it's like, I think it's Rita McGrath, who was on here not that long, about about seeing around corners. How does predictive analytics really help me envision push my company into the future and really see what might be that I don't see that right head on, right? And very smart advice for you to look at analytics and then slice and dice it. I think it's, it's, I think it was, I'm trying to think of the lady's name, but she wrote a book called the watchman's rattle. And the the interesting thing was, is, who's up in that tower ringing the bell about what's actually going to happen, what's what's coming. You know, we know that predictive analytics, as you know, has been a huge factor for these large insurance carriers pulling out of California, Florida, whatever, and saying, Hey, there's floods, there's fires. We We can't lose any more money we've already lost. So using this stuff in the computer and having young people that understand it, and getting in analytics for any kind of business, whether it's furniture or whatever, is a great way to go. So look, and
Verne Harnish
you know, it might be helpful too. I mean, the first project he had him do was figure out where he should put his next warehouse that is a form of prediction, and they were willing to look at data that he would never have considered because they're not biased towards the business. Not only did they choose Houston, but Greg, they said you should be in this block in Houston, and that's where he's got his new quarter million dollar facility. The next is he said Netflix is good at predicting what people would like to see next. That's why they're the largest movie studio in the world. And he said, we got the same problem predicting what would be the next hot version of Office Furniture. AI, the engine that the students built, is now about 86% accurate in predicting this is the wood color that's going to be hot this next season. This is the design. And then AI is designing the furniture. AI is doing the pictures. AI is producing the video and the copy, where he used to have to mock all of that up, and it can do it in, you know, essentially minutes that would have taken months before. So it's really helping real problems, real business. Yeah, I
Greg Voisen
was watching a documentary on Leonardo da Vinci, and it's almost like the Leonardo da Vinci of the 21st century, right? Because, you know, when you look at a mind like Leonardo's, and truly what he predicted, you know, yeah, all these things that he predicted way before anybody had it's fascinating if you read his notes, right? So look, you You're like the master in scaling up. That's the name of your company
Greg Voisen
master at really scaling. And what are most what are the most overlooked aspects of really execution when scaling a business? And how can leaders really kind of address them? Because it's one thing to say, hey, we're moving along. We're making $20 million a year. We're meeting all our bills. We got an ibita of 12% we can just keep going right, whatever that might be. But you know, a lot of and I want you to address this too many business owners in succession, who have businesses like this, and you deal a lot with small businesses, at some point, they want to exit, right? And they want to get as much as they can for their business, okay? And so when you scale, you have to know why you're scaling one and two. What is the ultimate exit strategy. So what advice would you have for all of those mid sized businesses out there that are listening to this about scaling and exiting?
Verne Harnish
Yeah, well, it, you know, it's realizing that wealth is only true created through transactions, you know? So Michael Dowell did the transaction of the century. He took his company private, then he took it back public. Those two transactions put 50 billion in his his pocket. So let me bring it back down to our mere mortal status. One of my founding board members, Ted leonsis, sold his little company, red gig, when he was in his 20s, for 5 million to Harris communications. Harris then blew it up, and he was able to buy it back for a million. So he netted four then he resold it to AOL. He was Steve case's partner. They scaled out AOL, then they did the Time Warner transaction, which was hundreds of millions, and then Ted took chips off the table, and he then bought the sports teams in Washington, DC. The biggest mistake I see entrepreneurs make is they don't exit sooner than later. Who should and when should you exit when you're the most excited about the business, because that's when you're going to get everybody else hyped up about it. And look, anyone who's going to buy it, they can see through you faking it. But if the business is truly on fire and has caught a wave and is doing well, that's the time. And now we always hear the few exceptions, the you know, the Michael Dow who hangs on, or the mark of Zuckerberg, but come on, the rest of us are not those handful of guys and gals. Instead, you're better off exiting when you're excited about it, because if you wait till it slows down, you just left millions on the table, and you can always buy it back. Whoever bought, if they blow it
Greg Voisen
up. I did. I did a business where that happened twice. That happened, they sold it, and then they bought it back. A half of what they they sold it for, and then they had all the capital that they had to do it. But here's a really good question for you, and not that the others weren't, but most business owners, whether it's a family business or it's, it's, it's being run by a CEO, there's this at some point, somebody founded this company, and there's this big question when they exit, which is why They don't exit sooner? Around relevance, what would you tell a mid sized business owner today who's hanging on because he or she is worried that I'm not going to be relevant anymore when I sell this business, and I really have to have this internal psyche and spiritual connection to making sure that I'm relevant?
Verne Harnish
Yeah, well, I want to bifurcate that question. Okay, first I want to deal with I thought where you were going is and rightfully so. The founder should be concerned that when they leave, something leaves with them that ends up destroying their baby. And what I've concluded is they have to be clear, what is the soul of their baby? What's the soul of the business? And you can outsource and delegate everything but the soul. And so let me tell you a story, and then how do you fix that? So I had a guy that owns a $600 million construction company. He's taken 30 years to get up the S curve. It's quite successful. And he said, about four years ago, he started turning it over to some of the younger leaders, and it's not going well, and so that's why he called me. He says, I can't figure out. I go, all right, Dave, what's the soul of the business? He goes, I don't know what you mean. So here's how you figure out the soul. What was the key to you getting here? And he knew that answer. He said, Look, we do very complex projects, but we have never missed a deadline, not in the Great Recession, not in the pandemic, not in supply chain challenges. We never have missed a deadline. He said, in the last 48 months, we've missed four I go, there it is. So I give you permission, Dave, to go back in and get maniacal. Be a little bit of an a hole if you need to get micromanaged, if you need to, but you need to get that fixed, and then you can't leave till you found somebody who's as maniacal and good at that piece of the soul as you. And that's what Johnny Ive was for Steve Jobs. Mean Apple 10x that's market cap in the next 10 years after Steve's death. I know because Johnny Ive was there. Johnny then left in 2021 literally 10 years later. And you know, there's about a 36 month cycle on new ideas to market. I think that's why Apple is not the number one market cap company today. They just got passed by NVIDIA here a couple of weeks ago, is they, I don't think they've got anybody watching the soul, which was always designed in apple. So, entrepreneur, what's the soul of your business? Customer, service, on time, delivery, design. Customer, whatever it is, you've got to watch it like a hawk or and then find somebody who can when you leave. And then, what do you have to do to be relevant? You're absolutely right, man. Guys go crazy when, yeah, especially, especially because if they're not getting a monthly all of a sudden they forget everything the company was paying for, you know, their car payment, their, you know, their vacation, whatever, and now they're having to eat their seed corn. I don't care if they pulled out 100 million, if they have to spend $1 of that seed corn, they go nuts. I
Greg Voisen
know that was true, yeah. So
Verne Harnish
what we recommend is, one, they buy themselves a toy as a gift. Number two, they take a year off and they write a book about their experience. That is the good, best way for you to spend that first year, because now you get all the stories. You get to recall, and you get to go call up your friends, your customers, go get the detail.
Greg Voisen
You go on the speaking tour, and you're
Verne Harnish
producing something you're making
Greg Voisen
come to work for scaling up
Verne Harnish
and and, and then somewhere over that year, they'll figure out. The second thing we recommend is go to the halftime Institute. That was four,
Greg Voisen
oh yeah, oh yeah. Definitely,
Verne Harnish
for this reason,
Greg Voisen
it's gonna the halftime Institute. I highly recommend the the guy that's running it now was just on the show maybe six months ago, and everybody that's gone through that has done well as Bob Woodward initially, not Bob somebody. What was Bob? What was Bob's name? Bob Buford. I said would, yeah, Bob, you said that. I
Verne Harnish
couldn't think of buford's name either. But yeah, yeah,
Greg Voisen
go out and buy the book, folks, because it's it's worth it, and go to their website. Go listen to that podcast I did with him when in rough summing up the interview now, yeah, look, we have a new president in we've got a lot of countries. This is a worldwide country economy. You look at China, you look at Taiwan, you look at all these other places that potentially affect our landscape. So with the trends in the global economy and the business landscape, how do you see that shaping? And this is a very broad press question, but it's a great way to sum up our podcast, because I'd like people to know your thinking as we move forward through the next let's say, four to six years. What would you tell business owners right now, and what opportunities do you see for them scaling up? Yeah,
Verne Harnish
well, first, I think it's important for business owners to know some of the stats of our world. So the global economy moves 33 trillion in the year. 2000 this year, it'll be 109 trillion, even if you adjust for inflation. I don't know about you, but if you can't find a million or a billion out of that, it is your fault. There is, there is plenty of opportunity to go around, if you'll keep your head in the game, and you will, you know, stay awake kind of thing set. So the macro economy is there, and it's because of all the billions of people moving into the middle class. So the business is to be had. So that's the mentality I think you have to my concern for companies in the United States, though, is that we were 60% of the global economy in the year. 2000 this year will be about 23% so if there's a weakness, we have been balled to sleep by our own economy that we're leaving three quarters of the opportunity on the table. And we are not the kind of global business people, market firms. We have some giants, the apples and all those good stuff that are but mid market companies. This is why I got global back in the year 2000 we operate on all six continents, and to me, that is our best edge, that when one side of the planet's up, the other side of the planet's down, and vice versa. And so pick your customer and chase them all over the globe.
Greg Voisen
That is such sound advice. On Sunday, I was sitting with Brian Tracy, because he wrote a new book on goals, and Brian is in his 80s now a few health challenges. And I said, Because Dale Carnegie was a client of mine, and I did all the Dale Carnegie. And when you look at it, they'll tell you, right now, that more of the revenue is derived from outside of the United States than it is from inside for their training programs. So when you look at, you know, Carnegie, telling you, hey, we're not really making it from our distributor network in the US. It's coming from China, it's coming from Japan. It's coming from Taiwan, it's coming from Russia. It's coming from wherever it is, truly, there's where they need the help, which is what you said, identify the issue where we were 60% now we're 23 we had all of the resources, the trainings, the knowledge, the expertise that the rest of the globe is really hungry for. And you there's another one scaling up, right? So that it just gives you, you know, obviously, that's one small example, folks, but it is an example for you to put your thinking hat on and say, what does the world need that they don't have that we've had, because we're so abundant with resources, right?
Verne Harnish
Greg nicely stated, yeah, yeah.
Greg Voisen
So thank you for being on the show, thank you for staying up this late from Barcelona and taking this time with us again for all my listeners, he already said, Go to scaling up.com there you can get these free courses. Just push on the links to learn more about scaling up and what he does his consulting firm. They have how many consultants now that work with scaling up? We're 293 293 Yeah, you can find them almost anywhere, and they'd be happy to have your business again. Pleasure speaking with you. Enjoy the rest of your evening, whatever's left of it. Not much, but thanks so much.
Verne Harnish
Thank you, Greg.
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Inside Personal Growth with Greg Voisen · Podcast 1187: From Shadows to Summit – Jon Chandonnet’s Journey to VibranceIn our latest Inside Personal Growth podcast episode, we had the privilege of speaking with Jon Chandonnet, an inspiring author, coach, and the founder of Vibrant You Academy. Diagnosed with multiple sclerosis (MS) at just 27, Jon’s journey is a powerful testament to resilience, mindset, and the pursuit of a fulfilling life.
Through his transformative book, Shadow Summit: A Journey from MS to the Other Side of Impossible, Jon offers a unique blend of personal storytelling and actionable strategies to navigate life’s adversities.
Key Takeaways from Jon’s Journey1. The Power of ResilienceJon’s story teaches us that resilience is not just about enduring hardships—it’s about adapting, learning, and growing through them. Despite the physical and emotional toll of MS, Jon embraced his challenges, using them as a catalyst to redefine his life.
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Prioritizing What Truly MattersJon highlights the importance of focusing energy on areas that align with one’s core values and purpose. His framework of the “Seven Vibrances” helps individuals evaluate and balance physical, emotional, and spiritual energies.
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Transforming Adversity into OpportunityJon’s journey demonstrates how adversity can become an opportunity for self-discovery and growth. His transition from a corporate career to coaching and writing is a shining example of how to realign one’s life for greater fulfillment.
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The Role of Storytelling in HealingWriting Shadow Summit was a transformative process for Jon, allowing him to integrate his emotions and share valuable lessons with the world. Storytelling, he says, is not just about sharing experiences but about connecting with others on a deeper level.
Learn More from JonJon’s work extends beyond his book. As the founder of Vibrant You Academy, he empowers individuals to live their best lives through coaching and online courses. You can connect with Jon and learn more about his inspiring journey through the following links:
- Buy Jon’s Book
- Jon Chandonnet on Facebook
- Jon Chandonnet on LinkedIn
You may also refer to the transcripts below for the full transcription (not edited) of the interview.
Interview Transcipt -Not EditedEmailDownloadNew TabWelcome back to Inside personal growth. This is Greg Voisen, the host of inside personal growth, and joining me from Del Mar, California, not that far away. And I am such an honor, because I don't always get to meet my authors, but he and I now have met a couple of times for coffee down at the coffee shop. The better bus. I'm going to put a I'm going to put a shout out to those guys, because Jon and I like that place now, down in Del Mar on 15th Street. Jon, good morning to you. How you doing, Greg,
I'm doing awesome. So good to be with you. Well,
I'm gonna let you I've pronounced your last name several times, but I don't want to mess it up. Give me the pronunciation, so that I don't screw up your last name for the podcast. Sure it's Chandonnet. Chandonnet. So nice French name. Well, I'm gonna let the listeners know a tad bit about you before we dive into the questions about the book. I'm also going to let the listeners know that they can reach you at www, vibrant you academy.com that's vibrant you academy.com that's where Jon has his coaching platform and anybody listening, can it? Can get it, get more information there. So Jon is an inspiring author. This book is called Shadow Mountain, a journey from MS to the other side of impossible shadow Summit. Shadow Summit, yeah. Why did I say Shadow Mountain? Shadow Summit? Well, maybe it should be Shadow Mountain metaphor. Metaphor. Great. He's also the founder of vibrant you, which I just mentioned. He was Dias diagnosed with multiple sclerosis at the age of 27 Jon has spent decades redefining what it means to live a vibrant and fulfilling life. He is a full time coach and author. Through his writing coaching and online academy, he empowers individuals to embrace challenges, unlock their potential and live with purpose. His journey of resilience and transformation is a testament to the power of mindset, health and perseverance. This is the guy that's sitting on the other side of the screen. And so for all of you out there, we welcome you to the inside personal growth podcast, Jon. And why don't we just kind of hit it off? I'll get the title right. This time, the title of the book shadow Summit. It's intriguing, right, right? You know, mountains do give off shadows, right? What does this phrase in the shadow of the summit, you say lies the truth mean to you, and how does it frame? How has it framed your journey with? Ms, yeah,
it's a great question. You know, the mountain is the metaphor that really represents the ego. So in the shadow of the ego is the truth. So I had, I had to face my ego. I had to confront my ego. You know, I mean, I had a big, big job with a technology startup, and the MS caused me to have to back away from that as a 35 year old man, and you know, I was in the midst of, you know, ready to explode, and your profession is everything, and It informs your ego, and I had to confront that, you know, and I had to confront my ego physically, you know, because I was, I was an athlete, you know, all through School, and was running marathons and and doing mountain climbing and crazy outdoor adventures and pushing the boundaries, you know, but I had that I had to face down, that that was not the way that was serving my body
well, you know, You had a lot of uncertainty anybody with that. And you know, in it, from what I understand, Ms kind of creeps up on you. It just doesn't happen one day. And you describe ms as a disease that you say, hides in the shadows. How has the invisibility of the illness shaped your personal and professional interactions? In other words, you know, you just didn't wake up at 27 and go, oh yeah, I got MS, right. And I think any people out there today that are listening to the show that have MS, yep, they realize the progression of this dis ease. You deal with it, because you and I have met so many times in person, so vibrantly, you know? I mean, your company is called vibrant, you, right? And if, if it's, if it's, Mind Matters, your mind matters, because you're the kind of guy that's going to overcome this with the positive mental attitude, as they say, because I remember last time I saw you, and this is, I'm carrying on a bit here, but you said, I'm going to run again, right? And here I see a guy with crutches, and he's saying he's going to run again. That's what you told the policeman out in front of your car. Do, right,
right, right. That was helping me in my car as we're coming out of coffee shop. Policeman there, and you know, he's talking, you know, and there's some sympathy from him, and I'm like, You know what? Yeah, I'm dealing with this, but you know what, I'm gonna get through this and I am gonna run again,
yeah, yeah. So what do you what do you attest to, kind of this invisibility and how it's played havoc with your psyche and your mental psyche and her and your emotions and everything else. Because we said our intention today was to speak with people that are dealing with some pain and or suffering that's messing up their psyche, and this has got to be one that really messes with you. It
does, you know, because, because I look so able bodied, you know, and people have no idea that I'm dealing with it. So when I was first diagnosed, you know, as 20 at 27 I could be in denial, and I could, you know, I can, in essence, say, I don't have you and I could try not to associate with the disease, which was good. It was a good coping mechanism, and it allowed me to do great things over the first eight years. But during that time, it was creeping in, and I was over those first eight years, slowly lowing, losing mobility, functionality. I lost my mental acuity and ability. My hands were numb. I lost feeling, you know, I was falling down, you know, and but I would, you know, I'd always get up, and I could always just kind of brush it off and be in denial, like, oh yeah, I don't have you. That's just a momentary thing and but it messes with you, because over time, it wears you down.
Yeah? Well, you can tell you know, you have changed your lifestyle, obviously, but you also talked about the role of denial in your journey, especially early on, right? It's like, I think a lot of us go in denial when got something physical going on. Oh, that's not happening. So what was the turning point where you began to accept and integrate your MS diagnosis into your life. When? What did that really happen? Yeah,
so that was, that was eight years in after the diagnosis, and you know, at work, I had failed an online test at work because my mom was going in circles, and I was a project manager for eight years and more are in the company, you know, for 95% longer than most of the project managers in the company. And yet I couldn't keep the concept straight. I got a grad degree from MIT and, you know, to for my mind to be going in circles. That was real, that was really scary and and, you know, I was, I was in a speaking course at work as well, and my mind and mouth lost connection, you know, I was not fluid, and my my voice was also muffled, and so the combination of these things showed me that I was in trouble. And I asked, you know, I got the courage to ask the company I worked for for a full month leave of absence to improve my health at the Optimum Health Institute in San Diego. And I took that step. I mean, so you know, a question you're gonna ask me is, you know, what was the first step? The first real important step was facing my ego. Yeah, and asking my the company for four months off, because that's corporate suicide, asking, you know when you're in, yeah, it is. It is when you, when you step away from the line like that and show that and show weakness. If you show weakness like that in a corporate setting. I mean that it doesn't know. It doesn't always, it doesn't always play well.
Well, the good thing about you is your determination. You reinvented yourself. Let's face a lot of people out there today that think they need to live the corporate lifestyle. They have a lot of fear. Well, you had two fears. One, you had the MS. And two, you probably are afraid you're gonna lose your job. And three, then you start considering the finance part of it as well. Like, hey, right? How many? How am I? What am I gonna do now? Right? Wasn't expecting this, right? This wasn't something I expected. Although life does send us kind of messages that we need to learn from yours is protracted, because the MS has advanced a little bit further, yeah. But you know, I want to talk about this, this role of physical and mental film fitness, yeah, yeah, that's you're a coach, so you're coaching people all the time, yep, and the in the pursuit of these physical challenges, like you used to climb 14,000 feet summits and run marathons and all these kind of things, right? How did those physical endeavors influence your mental strength in dealing with Ms? Because when you first got it, you are still doing that right, right, right, right now you're telling me I can't walk a half a mile down on the beach, right, right. So, you know, obviously it's progressed, and you've seen it progress. And so this real personal question, how do you deal with that progression every day? And what's in your mind,
right? And I'm always looking for ways to improve my condition. You know, I mean, 20 years ago, I was in big trouble, and I look for ways to improve my condition, which is where I did that raw vegan detox. You know, a year ago, my MS morphed from relapsing remitting to secondary progressive. And I that that's a wake up call. And I didn't, when
you changed your diet, that's right, went to all, all fats, yeah, really carbs,
yeah. I'm 100% you know, on paleo, keto, you know, I 5% of my calories come from carbs, 5% right? I mean, you know, a lot of people, you know, 95% of their diet comes from carbs, and that's bad for me, because it leads to inflammation in my body. And so I had, I had to figure out how to get beyond that inflammation load. I had to free myself from that and
and I know, but you've done it, and I've done it. I'm out the other side. You did tell me it is hard to live off of just fat, and your body isn't process it, but you have gotten rid of the inflammation. So the you know, I'd say one of the things you wrote about was the importance of focusing attention where it counts, uh huh. And so that's one of the things, where you focused your attention, where it counts. How do you pro How do you, Jon, prioritize what truly matters in this you know, like we live in such a noisy world today, uh huh, uh huh. And I know you're a meditator, and I know that that's been a journey of yours and mindfulness and meditation and spiritual practice. But how do you help people who you coach get out of all of these demands and prioritize what truly matters, and remove themselves from such this demanding world and put themselves in a space where they can be more creative, more healthy and and and contribute more to their family, to the world at large, and live their purpose. Yeah, what would you tell them?
So, you know, I've come up through my journey. I've realized that there's really seven key elements to life, you know. And those are the, what I call the seven vibrance, and aligning with those is really important, because I leak energy, you know, literally, my nerves leak energy because they're afraid, okay? And so understanding those seven energies, there's physical energy there, there's emotional energy, there's professional energy, there's financial, social through the voice, mental and spiritual. So I'm very mindful of how I use each of those seven energies, and that those seven energies define 99% of life. And so I've got my operating system, my personal operating system, fine tuned to be mindful of those seven energies. You know, all day long, you know, I'm mindful of the 99% of what powers my life, and that has that's allowed me to free myself from the noise. You know,
it's, it's really, I think it's very clever. You know, these vibrant use, or the seven of them that you basically teach your coaching clients, yep, yep. You mentioned them really kind of toward the end of the book, yeah, yep, with, without giving too much away, right, the principles in those to the listeners would be important. So can you tell us what that you did briefly mention the seven, yeah. But what those seven are? Yep. And anybody out there today facing something how realizing where they are on the Severn vibrance, right? Yes, and how to actually look at it as a whole, yeah? Because it is a whole. I mean, when people look at their chakra, yeah, Crown Chakra here, right? And live through the energies of our body, right? I don't remember how many chakras there are, but maybe there's seven. There
are seven, okay, the vibrance are aligned with the chakras. Okay, so the physical is the root chakra, down at the base of the spine. You know, emotional is the emotional vibrant at the sacrum. You know, profession is at the sacrum, excuse me, the solar plexus. And then the heart is financial, the financial, the throat chakra is social, the voice, all the words. The mind is the mental chakra, all your thoughts. And then spiritual is the crown chakra. And so each of these seven energies allow me to understand. You know, am I connecting with people? Am I really connecting with people? Because connection energy fuels me. You know, my thoughts my mind is, are my thoughts serving me or not? Am I positive or negative? What time state Am I in around my thoughts? Am I in the past, the present or the future? The only place I can really live is the present. The only thing that can affect the future is the present, you know. So if I'm in the past, I'm in regret, you know. If I'm in the future, I'm in worry, you know. And so the only way you take care of all that in the mind is to be in the now, you know,
you know, that's an old statement that that my mom used to use, God bless her, yeah, she used to say, yesterday's a canceled check, tomorrow's a promissory note. The only thing you have is today, that's it. Yeah, and, you know, I understand that, but we have so many people in this world that you coach, that I coach, that allow the mind takes them to this false expectation appearing real fear. Yes, I'm not going to have enough. I'm going to be broke. I'm go, whatever it is going to be. They live 99% of the time. That never happens. But I have always said, you know that we live, Jon, in a world of making stuff up. Then we we believe the stuff we made up. So then we end up living what we made up, right? Yeah, which doesn't serve us.
You know, like all those narratives spin up in our mind, and we're all really creative, let's give let's call it out. You know, that's one thing. That's one thing everyone on this this session is, creative, and they can spin up some crazy narratives, you know. And those, those, do they serve you or not a lot, a lot of times, most of the time they don't. And so, how do you ground all that stuff, you know? Because that is, you know, the focus is, what do you want, what do you really want, and that that should really focus your energy and your action, you know, and how do you work on what you want?
What do you tell people? As I always say this to people that are coaches, because part of the job of a coach, advisor, yep, is to help somebody, and I'm just going to use this word because it works, is to help people get unstuck. Uh huh, okay, and when they get stuck, they're in a rut. And look, you've had your share of ruts. I've had my share of ruts. You even said that as this diagnosis with MS came up, that your relationships when you were really had to be more open. You know, I'm sure you found yourself in ruts at time, telling people and the and being so open had an impact, right? So my question for you is, if somebody out there listening is in a rut, speaking from two folks who've been in plenty of ruts, what? What a rut or that they're stuck? What's the best advice, you would have to trigger something they could do that would interrupt that thought pattern and move them beyond the rut or the stuckness,
talk to one person. To start talking to one person, because you speak your truth, right? You, you the words you stitch, say, speak your truth, and you, you'll inevitably talk about, maybe what you're dealing with, but inherent within that is you'll speak what I want is I want to be I want to feel better. I want to be better. You know that desire needs to bubble up and come out of you, and the only way for that to happen, to go from internal to external, is to speak with someone, and that's really key, is to externally, reflect what is happening inside your truth. You know,
so to be honest with yourself, right? And I think, you know, a lot of times we hide from being honest. We push it under the carpet. You know, we don't want to deal with our feelings having. MS, you've had to deal with every feeling and emotion you could imagine, including, you know, how do I manage these relationships with people in my family, with people outside of my family, with my clients, with all of that, and it's, it's quite a journey you've taken. And my hat's off to you, and I acknowledge you because it has been something that's not only transformed your life, but the actual impact that somebody like you can have on other people who aren't dealing with what you're dealing with
is is truly a blessing, right? Yes, there's times maybe you don't feel like it's a blessing. So no, it is, yeah, and it doesn't serve me to look at it any other way. Blessing, you know, Greg, the fact that you bring that out, that's Thank you. I mean, that's, you know, and those things you said thank you,
but well, you know you're like you and I have met a couple of times now, now we're on this podcast. Now the reality is, we've come become really close and shared a lot of things about our businesses and our life and whatever, and it's and it is, has a lot to do with, you know, somebody who's been empowered to work their way through something so monumental that has actually helped me break out of certain things too, and be totally honest and truthful, you know. So you know, you your book highlights the power of storytelling, and you're a great storyteller. Um, what role did writing shadow summit play in truly, you know, and I'm going to hold the book up for the listeners, did it play in your own healing and growth? Yes, right? This is as much a memoir as it is a book about people's personal growth, about how you
grew, yep, yep, yep, yep, and so that, you know, that took me eight years to write that book, The first version, yeah, it took me eight years. I mean, you know, I was not, I was not a writer of narrative prose. I mean, I was a rational guy. I was 100% rational. And in order to write narrative prose, you have to integrate the rational and the intuitive, you know, the intuitive feeling. And I was, I was emotionally literate, you know, you asked my son's mom, you know, I mean, I was emotionally illiterate, and that's what the experience of the book taught me was how to get in touch with my emotions, because you can't write a narrative, a book of narrative prose, without being in touch with emotion. Because all's emotion is, is, is the emotional current of a story, you know? I mean,
yeah, well, you, you did a good job of it, and I want to acknowledge you for that. And I want to encourage our listeners to actually go to Amazon. We'll put a link, get a copy of the book, and actually go to your website and and really, you couldn't be coached, and I'm saying this selfishly, by a better person. So if you're looking for a coach and you're in a rut, or you're stuck, or you think you're dealing with a life changing challenge, you couldn't be with a better coach than somebody who's already dealt with it. So my hats off to like, go to Jon and see if you're really experiencing that pain or suffering, and you're listening today, and you'd like some help. I'm going to say, go see Jon. Go right his website.
Yeah. And as a coach, you know, really, I listen. That's really what I do, I listen to people, and I mirror back their truth, you know, and that's, that's what, that's what a coach ultimately does, is assist people to live the life they want to live. I mean, that's what, that's my goal, that's my purpose, is to assist people to live their best life according to their innate, you know, abilities and skills, you know. And that's what a coach that's what a coach does.
Well, you're a good listener that I would say. Now look looking ahead, what, what is kind of next for you, and how do you continue? Plan to continue inspiring others with your stories and your lessons. You're a coach. You and I have talked about you putting this stuff online. You've got lots of dreams and aspirations, yeah. But I think for our listeners, it's like, okay, John's a coach. I can, I can hire him to help me. Yep, I can read his book. Yeah. But I want to let listeners know he's got a full on course this vibrant you the seven Vibrance. It's very well laid out, right? And truly, go to Jon's website and contact him, because he has so much more content than his. What on his what's on his website,
right? Yeah, yeah.
Is that what's ahead for you, is making the course available for people that need to get it at a reasonable price and
Exactly, exactly, yeah, you know, I've been, I've been perfecting it over the last 11 years, and so now I know it works, and now I need to figure out a way to make it of more of a available to everyone, you Know, more mass market available, you know, to touch that, because my goal is to touch more lives, because I believe everyone has their own best life within them, and a lot aren't, aren't manifesting it. To Use Your Words, Greg, you know, right? Just, they just not. They're not actualizing it. They're not taking action to manifest their best life. And so or,
or we might say Jon, that there they might be, but because of the ego, which is where you started from here, yep, yep, yep, the ego has always told them they're not enough, yep, and until they can turn off that story that you know what you do every day isn't enough, you got to do more. You weren't the straight A student from MIT or wherever you graduated. You didn't become that doctor. You have to truly become who you want to become, right, and you can't let the outside world actually mold you into something different, because you are then going to struggle right. You are going to have pain and suffering and beyond belief. So if you want to reinvent yourself, go to somebody like Jon to get reinvented. Right. Use the vibrant you content to do that right? What are the last words you'd want to leave our listeners with Jon with relation to like, some epiphany that they may want to try and discover, either on their own or with you, that would help them transmute, and I say this openly, transmute some area in their life where they don't feel good about themselves, their weight, their physical health, their emotions, their relationships. What might you say? Could be like a, you know, like an egg that breaks open and says, Yeah, here it is, scramble me, yeah,
I mean, it's, it's, it's, it's, take a step, you know,
take a step,
take us, either it's a step forward or a step back, or a step up or step down. Who knows, right does take action and begin to move in the direction you want? And it doesn't. Doesn't have to be the perfect step, you know, right doesn't like, it's like, my story is messy. I i took a lot of, you know, step back, step down, fell down, you know. I mean, I was all at times. I was all over the place, but, but I took action because I wanted to improve my situation, you know,
well, you're a perfect example of taking a step because you have Ms. So you couldn't use a better analogy. Every one of your steps is intentional and rightfully so. It made we talked about slowing down. Jon, obviously has slowed down, folks, but I watched how every step has such meaning for you. So I want to thank you for being on inside personal growth, sharing your story again. For all of my listeners, you're going to go to www vibrant, u v, i, b, r, a, n, t, u, the U academy.com there. You can learn more. You can get in touch with Jon. You can pick this book up at all your best booksellers, but we'll put a link to Amazon. Jon, honestly, I can't wait for my listeners to get a hold of this podcast and to get in touch with you, and I really appreciate you. Namaste to you. Thanks for being on the show and spending some time sharing your story and journey with MS, how you've overcome some of your challenges and and really how people out there can move through the pain and suffering. Yes,
you know Greg, thank you so much. Just, thank you for allowing me just to share and see if I can, you know, touch someone who knows you are. Namaste, my friend. Namaste.
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Inside Personal Growth with Greg Voisen · Podcast 1186: Discover How Storytelling Can Transform Your Life with Laura NespoliIn this podcast episode of Inside Personal Growth, Greg Voisen welcomes Laura Nespoli, founder of Meshin Movement, to discuss the profound impact of storytelling on personal growth and professional success. Laura’s unique journey and expertise highlight how uncovering your authentic narrative can unlock transformation and foster deeper connections.
Who is Laura Nespoli?Laura Nespoli is the founder of Meshin Movement, a platform that blends storytelling, strategy, and purpose to inspire change. With years of experience as a brand strategist, Laura has dedicated her career to helping individuals and organizations articulate their stories in meaningful and impactful ways.
Laura’s mission goes beyond traditional storytelling. She empowers people to align their purpose with their narrative, helping leaders, teams, and brands uncover their unique value and communicate it effectively. Her expertise spans:
- Purpose-driven storytelling
- Narrative strategy for personal and professional growth
- Hosting connective meal experiences to unite people
She is also an advocate for self-discovery, having embraced her identity as an empath and overcome personal challenges, including redefining her relationship with limiting beliefs and coming out as bisexual. Laura uses her experiences to guide others toward clarity, purpose, and connection.
What You’ll Learn in This Podcast1. The Journey of Self-Discovery
Laura shares her inspiring story of breaking free from limiting beliefs and embracing her true self. She discusses how recognizing her identity as an empath became a pivotal moment in her personal growth.
2. Purpose-Driven Storytelling
Learn how Laura helps individuals and organizations align their purpose with their narrative, creating meaningful and impactful connections.
3. Practical Tools for Self-Reflection
Laura introduces techniques like “morning pages” and reflective practices to uncover hidden stories and spark personal growth.
4. The Power of Vulnerability and Empathy
Discover how embracing vulnerability and empathy can lead to deeper, more authentic connections in both personal and professional life.
5. Threads of Change and Wanderlust
Laura explains these concepts and how they help uncover hidden aspects of yourself, paving the way for transformation.
Why Listen to This Podcast?If you’ve ever felt stuck or struggled to articulate your story, this episode is for you. Laura’s insights provide actionable tools and inspiring advice to help you uncover your authentic self, strengthen your connections, and align your purpose with your actions. Whether you’re a leader, a brand strategist, or someone on a journey of self-discovery, you’ll walk away with valuable lessons on the art of storytelling.
Don’t miss this opportunity to learn how storytelling can transform your personal and professional life!
Connect with Laura NespoliDiscover more about Laura and her work:
Website: Meshin Movement
Instagram
LinkedIn
You may also refer to the transcripts below for the full transcription (not edited) of the interview.
Interview Transcipt -Not EditedEmailDownloadNew TabWelcome back to Inside personal growth. This is Greg Voisen, the host of inside personal growth. And Laura, everybody out there kind of knows who I am, but they don't know who you are. It's Laura Nespoli, and Laura is joining us from Rochester, New York today. Good day to you, Laura. How you doing?
I'm good. Thank you. Thanks so much for having me. Well, it's
good to have you on the show, and it's always good to learn about storytelling, and I think that it is the foundation that goes all the way back forever and ever, but I'll say where I remember is Native American Indians and being able to tell great stories and have it go from generation to generation. But we're going to explore the stories and strategies that inspire personal and professional growth and transformation. Laura basically is an extraordinary storyteller, storyteller, strategist, and she's the founder of meshin movement, that's M, E, S, H, I N movement.com, you can go there to learn more about that. With her background that seamlessly bends creativity and strategy. Laura is passionate about helping brands and individuals uncover their authentic narratives to create deep, deeper, more meaningful connections. Her expertise lies in aligning purpose with storytelling, empowering leaders and organizations to communicate their unique value and clarity and impact. She's got an innovative approach to this that's made her a trusted partner for those looking to drive transformation through the power of story. So I want everybody out there to kind of get ready. We're going to have a fascinating conversation about the art of storytelling and its role in shaping identity, and really how you can unlock the potential in both businesses and life, not just businesses, but business alive. Laura, welcome to Inside personal growth, and thanks for taking this time with our listeners today, and I think the best way to really kind of start this off is your your journey began here in 2018 when you're living with limiting beliefs. We've all lived with limiting beliefs. That's a part of life. I think the question is, is, how do we let go of those limiting beliefs? Can you share the pivotal moment that sparked this transformation, and kind of how it's moved your path forward, and how you've released those limiting beliefs?
Releasing probably is a better term for it.
You're still releasing,
yes, you know, we will always be, you know, I have this belief that this is, I talk about it being a journey beyond our limits, like an expansive journey. And so it's, if you think about concentric circles, we're always kind of growing to the next outer ring, and we're always expanding, and so we're always overcoming the next layer of limitation. But for me, it really started with realizing I was living with limited beliefs I didn't, you know, even understand, that I had a perception of myself that was really keeping me contained in place. And it it started with a friend just casually mentioning to me that I was an empath, which is a term I had never heard before, but it's a highly sensitive person and and upon looking it up, I understood so much of my life that I just had never really had the context for previously, someone who deeply feels the feelings of another person to the point where almost makes them sick. I mean, I grew up with a lifetime of autoimmune illness and diseases. I just this single realization. And I don't think it's just, you know, to think about the listeners out there, and how do you kind of like come upon this? I don't know, there just might be something that triggers an understanding or an awareness about yourself. And it gave me that pause to say, Oh my gosh. I mean, for me personally, it was Oh my gosh. I've been flexing to what other people needed me to be my whole life, and I've been trying to please everyone else so they felt good, and never really factored in my own feelings or emotions. And I think it was that kind of baseline, like, Oh my gosh. Like, this is there's so much more of myself I haven't discovered. And it opened a window so that just a few days later, when I had an idea, a purpose driven idea for meal experience with a narrative of connection woven through it, I think I was in a predisposition then to listen. You know, I think we all get inspiring moments. We have inspiring ideas. We're such creative creatures. You know, I'm sure, like throughout the day, like, what if, what if I could do this? I wonder if I could do this, or wouldn't it be a great idea? And oftentimes, we just kind of shut that down and go through the motions of our lives. And I think just because of this kind of, like, serendipitous connection between me realizing there was so much of myself I didn't understand, and then having this idea that was centered around more more purpose in the work I do. I think the combination of those two things sparked this transformation journey and starting to explore how to pursue more purpose in my work. What did that look like in getting to know myself more?
I think it started with the fact that somebody said, Hey, you're an empath. You said, I don't know what that is. And I want to direct our listeners to podcast 1095, the genius of empathy, practical skills to heal your sensitive self, your relationships in the world with Dr Judah Orloff. Judy Orloff is one of the world renowned experts in this area, if you're an empath. So she was on the show. It was podcast number 1095, please take a listen, because we take a very deep dive into that. So look, you found this out. You decided to change your life. And so how did the your background as a brand strategist? Because that's kind of where you're coming from, yeah, help change your vision for the mesh and movement, and really your storytelling approach. We've had many people on here who are storytelling coaches, right? They literally coach CEOs how to tell the right story. They coach all kinds of people how to tell stories. So how did this brand strategist thing end up into this in the mesh movement and storytelling movement.
Yeah. So really, I thought, I'm, you know, I was at a working at a creative agency at the time as as a brand strategist, and I went to work and told my colleague, who was a business partner on all the major accounts we worked on, and I said, I just need to let you know I'm going to, I'm going to leave work and start a nonprofit. And I told him about this meal experience idea, and he was like, it's a great idea, but it's a terrible idea to leave your job and do this like you are an incredible brand storyteller, and you bring clients around the table all the time. What if you start your own business, doing the work that you do, and pursue this meal experience, idea around narrative and connection on the side. And he actually decided to leave with me. So I started mesh and movement with a partner, originally, and just right at that point in my life, I think as soon as I realized I needed more purpose in my own life and in my work, when you put that out there in the world, things start coming to you. I just I connected with another leading strategist in the industry, and he was looking for some support on projects, and he was helping companies articulate their purpose stories. And it's another way of thinking about a brand story or brand strategy, but really focused on singular belief about the world you operate in, and therefore, what's your purpose? How do you intend to affect change in the world? So that kind of became the focus for mesh and storytelling work in the beginning, it was really like a parallel path to brand strategy work, but there's a lot of different frameworks and formats of of storytelling you can use for brand strategy. And so at the start, it was really focused on purpose storytelling, and that has continued to evolve over time in terms of the work I do with mesh. And ultimately, I realized that my own purpose, as I was doing this work, my own purpose is to unite people and inspire movement through shared meaning. And meaning is my medium, and story is the way that I do that. And I think the segue into our personal like the personal growth and the personal development side of it is, you know, stories have the power to connect an audience to an idea, and so at the heart of that, that's true in brand work or product marketing stories, which I also do in my work as a strategic storyteller, you're connecting two things together, and you're looking for empathy. You know, to connect an audience, you're you want to understand what's what's their driver, what's their motivation. You're giving context for the story, what's the meaning and intention behind it. And I realized, and I know that will probably go deeper in my own transformation journey at a certain point as I was parallel pathing this sort of focus and evolution in my brand strategy work, I was going through a really significant transformation journey in my personal life, and I realized, you know, as I was moving through that journey, that owning, acknowledging and then sharing my own story helped me get clarity on who I was, and helped me identify direction and where I wanted to go, and really gave me the strength to make change happen for myself,
But Well, you might want to tell like you got to tell the story, because you had some issues, obviously, with your family and in particular, your mother, yeah, and I remember this in the pre interview, and when you just started that, you started to get very emotional a second ago, and I could sense that there's obviously, as you know, Laura, there's still something very deep there for you, right? There's still something very deep there to overcome, because it's affected so many things in your life. So tell the listeners, if you were would, you know what that is? Because I think a lot of times what people will do, and I don't think it's in and maybe it is intentional, but I think it's pretty subconscious. They have these long stories with all these great experiences, either great and or painful, and they gloss over them when it comes time to tell them or to articulate them. For one, they don't believe that people really care to listen to the whole story, which in a lot of cases, that might be. But if you become a good storyteller, you can tell this story and have it have a significant meaning for them, right? Meaning, hey, I got something out of hearing Laura, so why don't you tell that story? Because if our listeners walk away today from this podcast having heard your story and and transform themselves around their belief of that story, you've made a significant impact.
Yeah, thank you. Yes, I will. So my story begins with little Laura, and I grew up as little Laura, believing my feelings didn't matter. So you know, I, I You're correct. My My mother is someone who really struggles to acknowledge challenges, and she really holds on to certain belief sets to help her excuse away difficulty. And it just so happened that in 2020 when the world was basically upside down, her inability to acknowledge challenge during that time pushed her into sort of extreme beliefs that were just so conspiracy theory beliefs that were so difficult to comprehend. Um, but I, and that was my, my particular experience. It was, it was kind of like we all create these stories about who we want the people in our lives to be, and my story for her was a fantasy that wasn't necessarily the reality, and pushed into these extreme circumstances, my the image I had, and who I so desperately wanted to believe that she was, just started crumbling down during this time, I was coaching for an incredible youth organization called Girls on the Run. And as a as a coach, I had to take pretty intensive training to identify abuse, emotional neglect, difficulty with the girls on the team. You know, their ages, nine to 11, and what kind of context they bring to the team. And so to help the coaches identify the context for those kids, they actually help you do that for yourself first. And they had this exercise that was like filling out a story of your child self. It was like Mad Libs, where you have a fill in the blank, and the blanks were things like, favorite, favorite sounds from your neighborhood. You know, what was your childhood nickname? Fond memories over holidays. What do you remember most about, you know, certain things. So I filled in the blanks, and I read the story of Little Laura, and it was like stepping outside myself and seeing my life experience through someone else's eyes. And this was happening in tandem with confronting my mom's, you know, kind of falling away into conspiracy theory and and I it just it,
well, your mom became a member of Q Anon, right? So she wasn't
a member. She was more she kind of fell into that belief set. And I think it was more demonstrative of a larger pattern in my life that my mom needed really strong beliefs in sort of extreme circumstances to justify away difficulties. So it was like an escapism sort of method for her, which just made me realize how much as a child, like any challenges I had were really hard for her to acknowledge, and that that's where that, like neglect the inability to see me and me growing up, feeling like I didn't matter and I shouldn't be seen. But it kind of came crumbling down, and it was really that realization and seeing my story from the outside, I mean, it brought me to an emotional breakdown, you know, like just realizing the patterns that existed in our relationship and how much of that emotional toll, emotional toll that had taken on me as as a young child and always was.
It was, it was really from what I remember you telling me quite traumatic for you, and I'm hoping it got has gotten better with your mother, hopefully it has. But you know you said and for our listeners, there has to be a courage to dig deep to transformation often requires vulnerability and courage, and this yours took courage too. What practices or tools helped you confront your own personal fears and to dig deeper into your true self. Now you just mentioned one, which was It was basically a great tool that you got from that nonprofit that had you outline your your story, and when you read it back, you really realized, and it was like, Whoa, I get it. What else might you give a listener out there today who's finding the same challenges and or fears and is afraid of being vulnerable but needs to have the courage to step up? What might you ask them to what might you tell them to do?
Yeah, there's just as soon as you start to share that story with yourself, I think that's a starting point. That acknowledgement gives you something to propel you, and if it helps for you to think of your your child self, I think as a starting point. But there's one book in particular, once I got to that emotional breakdown, and I was like, I just had, you know, fall into pieces at the same time, I all of a sudden, felt compelled to share my story. So I did. I conducted a fundraiser for Girls on the Run as an organization, and to raise money for my 40th birthday that year, and I shared my coming out story, because during this transformation, I also came out as bisexual, and so I shared my coming out story and my experience of holding myself back, keeping my like being contained all my life. And when I shared that story through a fundraising website, I had people reach out to me and ask me to come and speak at their companies of just share my story as an inspiring story. What I realized is that we're so we hold back. We we think that, you know, we shouldn't be sharing these things. We shouldn't be talking about these things. But the reality is, you share one little thing, and it ignites a vulnerability loop. When you share that with someone else, they share something of themselves with you, and it's almost cyclical. So I there is like sort of this flywheel mechanism when you're able to to get over that hurdle and just share a little bit of yourself in the right space and environment. I think it gives you more and more courage to go deeper, because you're getting the reinforcement of appreciation for that vulnerability, and that gives you the courage to be more vulnerable.
Well, it's the shadow side of yourself, right? And that shadow is always there, and it can actually create real challenges for people kind of always living in that shadow, right? So, you know, you basically inspired others through all of your storytelling, through what you've done, not not only in your personal business, but also through the mesh and movement. And the mesh and movement is about dinners, sharing dining experience, right? How did you, you know, basically take this mesh in movement that you were saying you had a partner and he's no longer there now, but literally, you're running it. And what has this mesh and movement done to help you heal?
Well, it's so mesh and movement is more than just the mesh and meals. I do those as also a fundraising mechanism and storytelling piece, but it's really a way for me to fulfill my purpose, uniting people, inspiring movement. So the meals is one, one way to bring people together around the table and and raise money with for nonprofits. Another piece is speaking engagements. I speak about the power of story to help us identify, strengthen ourselves. I share my story. I give people and teams tools to do to ignite that vulnerability loop. I talk about story for resilience, and then I also help individuals articulate their own purpose story. So I help professionals articulate their intention, their professional story.
It's now, can our listeners go and get crib sheets from you off of your website. Or can they just reach out to your email address if they want to, and say, hey, you know, you can reach out to Laura. We could put it in the blog entry for you. To give them some of these tools that you have is that absolutely, you're okay to work with Okay,
absolutely. If anyone's interested, please reach out laura@meshinmovement.com whether it's you know, some tips, and if you follow me on Instagram or on LinkedIn, I talk about story in all capacities, so I share as much as I can around story as a tool for connection and growth, and that connection can happen within yourself, but it can also happen within teams and groups.
Well, one of the things that you call is called threads of change, and your work emphasizes following threads to uncover, basically, the hidden aspects of ourself. What practical advice might you give to somebody who's listening right now or share with others to identify and follow their own threads of growth? Like I said, I think it personally, I see more people gloss over the story because they either feel like they don't want to tell it, or people aren't going to listen, or they don't believe that it's valuable enough, or whatever it might be, whatever they've tagged it, but there are gems inside of those threads that need to be extracted so that you can really determine what your purpose is in Life. And those gems are there always. So what might you tell them about the threads?
So how to find the threads? And I, the threads of me and you are those things that connect us and those that we follow into. You know our expansion the threads in your story. The best way to get at them, I think, is morning pages. So another tool I used in my own when I was recovering from my breakdown and building myself back up again, was Julia Cameron's book The Artist's Way. It was where I learned the practice of waking up and writing. And if it's mandatory, if you just wake up and you're like, I don't know what to write about. I swear every entry started with I'm not sure what to say, and you just put pen to paper, and you start writing, and then all of a sudden, things will come out. And I think just the exercise of giving yourself a space where you're not feeling judged, I think doing it first thing in the morning, stream of consciousness. Hopefully you're not judging yourself. It's just an outlet, and that's where you get the most natural, the most natural thoughts and feelings and beliefs coming through onto the page. And when, when you have that practice, then you just read those morning pages, and you start to identify patterns, and you start to see through lines. I think, when it comes to growth, you can't. You can't change something that you're not even aware of. Needs changing. You can't, you know. You can't solve a problem if you don't know what the problem is. And so so much of the growth journey is reflection, self reflection, in any way that, yeah, a mirror to look at yourself, and it's it's not easy if you don't have necessarily, like a if you're not regularly going to a therapist who's identifying those things for you, like the morning pages is a really lovely ritual for you to get your story out and for you to start To Know yourself. And
I and I think too, Laura, that you know, like what you've done is make connections. You know, I have an interview coming up here after you, with Dr Adam Dorsey about super psyched. You know, the connections that we fail to make meaning, the loneliness epidemic that's out there today is such a challenging situation, and people don't really realize it. You know, they're either shut in or they're not telling their story, or they're afraid, or whatever it might be. And just to have this human connection, which is what I love about your dinners, to actually sit down and be able to talk and to talk about it is important. And so what I would encourage people is, you know, take the time to make the connection, even if it's just in a small way. Connect, connect, to connect, because we are there's a huge deficit in most people's lives around connection. So the next thing I would say is, you spoke about the role of Wonder lust. You know, you describe wonder lust as basically an essential part of self discovery. There's a lot of people that aren't going to know what wonder lust is. So can you first define it, and then how can we cultivate curiosity to lead to some meaningful transformation.
Yeah, so no one, I imagine people haven't heard of it. I thought it was a term I just made up, but I have seen other people have come upon using it as well. For me, wonder lust was it's a curiosity so strong you can't help but keep trying to discover more within yourself, even though you're going to find things you really don't want to see or liked seeing. You know, a big part of the the growth journey is overcoming our limitations, our fears, our you know, the self imposed boundaries, and those aren't necessarily easy to identify. We try to put blockages up the Wanderlust is like you're just so driven to get to new aspects of yourself that you're okay with looking at everything that's there. I like, I equate it to wanderlust being a more tangible, physical journey. You know, people who love to travel or want to discover new places, wanderlust is kind of the same sort of intention and energy, but it's inwardly focused. And I think again, going back to what I mentioned before, you can't change things you don't understand, you know, and so to really expand beyond our boundaries and limitations, we have to know where those limits are and understand the barriers keeping us in place, or the behavior patterns we want to break or rewrite. You have to be willing to look at yourself with an open mind and admit that you don't have the answers and be curious enough to see what you don't necessarily want to see.
Well. And again, a lot of the reason we don't want to see it is because we don't really want to accept it, but we actually turn it into a it becomes part of us. But again, I'm going to say a lot of times it's the shadow, it's the side of Laura or Greg that we don't want to reveal to others, but we know that it's there. And in your case, it was maybe just being bisexual was one of those that you had to, as you said, come out. But my sense is that, you know, when you're an empathic those kind of feelings are so strong, right? And so for somebody, but for other people who are listening today, they're not as strong. They're like, hey, I can live this shadow of life and it doesn't matter, and I can go to my deathbed with the whole shadow, right? And I would say probably lots of people do, but you're giving people a chance through story, vulnerability, courage to actually come out and be able to do this. And I just want to encourage my listeners, because this is a great opportunity, whether you do it with Laura or by yourself, or you get some of her prompts or pages or things, it's an opportunity for you to look at a side of yourself that maybe you haven't been willing to actually face and and whether it's a relative, like in your case, your mother, or somebody else, a brother or a sister, that you're having conflicts with. This is a reason or way for you to take a look at it, and you also can look at the history that you think or that we don't think we know, help to cause these issues that that you've got, that you're hanging on to. So yeah, let's go sum this podcast up around mesh and movement. Again, you said it isn't just about the dinners, but the dinners are one thing. So looking forward for your vision, because this is like, Hey, this is Laura's vision. This is her story. How do you hope this continues to inspire connection and change the world. And if our listeners go to the mesh and movement or mission movement.com, what do you want them to learn, and what do you want them to take away from and how can you help them today?
Yeah, well, you know, I think what I've done with mesh, and it gave me space to combine a lot of things I love to do in strategy and story, work and social impact, and have them ladder up to a singular purpose. And I think I've planted the seeds for the work I hope to do through mesh and ongoing that. And that. And I hope, with time, the seeds will continue to grow into fully thriving ways in which I'm, you know, fulfilling my purpose more speaking work, more more with mesh and meals. Continue on with that, I would love to put together a cookbook, eventually, in a book or a guide for people to throw their own connecting meal experiences in their home, so that it's not just a fundraising thing I create, but give people the tools to connect better around the table with them, their own families and friends. I'm writing a book about my story so all of these ways just continue doing storytelling work for for myself, but for other people, I and again, going back to that idea like I think that we all are connected through our experiences. The details of my growth journey are very specific to my life, but the broader beats on this idea of what unites and connects us all is a lot stronger than we might think in today's disconnected age, so really just nurturing it and keep plugging away and bringing that purpose to life.
Yeah, well, while you're working on your book, and I want to let my listeners know that I storytelling is so important, and when you go to the mesh and movement, you're going to see her storytelling services, so strategic narratives, purpose, articulation, brand strategy, core, messaging, discovery, research, and she helps you to go through all of this. So it's one to one, story, clinic, office hours, which she's got there. Definitely go check it out, because she's there. And for those of you who aren't familiar with this storytelling inside business and our personal stories is a big deal. And many, many years ago, 20 plus years ago, I connected up with Karen Dietz, and Karen wrote the business storytelling for dummies. She also created a book around that, the dummies book series, and Lori Silverman, so there's also, I don't want to call it isn't an association for storytellers, but there is. It's a pretty big deal. And I would just encourage you, whether you're doing this for business or you're doing it for personal growth and development, it's great to be able to get your story on paper. It's great to then to be able to articulate it. It is what people want to hear. And if you're doing your as Laura could say, your one minute elevator pitch when somebody asks you what you're doing in business, it's good to have it in a story format, because that's the way people want to hear it, so that you encourage them to ask more questions. Anything else you want to sum up our podcast with here today?
Yeah. I mean, we've talked a lot about the personal storytelling side, but I you know, I do this storytelling work for professional stories in it to your point of a single page, here's what I believe to be true about the space I operate in, and therefore my purpose in the work that I do, and I do it in these three ways, what I do, how I do it, uniquely, and the impact I want to have. And I go through that exercise, I'm actually going through a story immersion with a client right now, and it is so revealing personally as well. Like the you know, what motivates and drives us professionally is so tied to who we are. So it's such rewarding work for me to get to tell people's professional stories and have them say I didn't even realize this about myself, and it's just a lot of clarity there. So
I just tell people that are listening, that have listened this far, so far, to the podcast, take the time. It's valuable insight. It's great discovery. It gives you an opportunity to clarify your message to the people that you're actually marketing something to, or you're working for, or whatever you're doing. Because people love to have the clarity and the story is very pungent, poignant way to actually accentuate what it is you do, however you tell it. So you are a master at this. Thank you for being on inside personal growth and sharing your story, both personal and the fact that people can go to Mesh and movement, they can learn more about how Laura can actually help you in your business, right? And I'd encourage you to reach out to her and for those tools as well, we'll put a link to her email address so she can send you some of those tools. Laura, thanks for being on inside personal growth and sharing your wisdom, your insight, and, most importantly, your personal story.
Thank you, Greg, it was a pleasure.
Namaste to you.
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Inside Personal Growth with Greg Voisen · Podcast 1177: Sleep Fitness: The Top Ten Sleep Facts That Matter with Nicholas StewartIn the second podcast with Nicholas Stewart, a certified sleep science coach and author of Sleep Fitness: The Top Ten Sleep Facts That Matter, we delve into transformative sleep strategies and practical solutions for achieving restorative rest. Nick shares his unique perspective, gained from overcoming a severe sleep disorder, and provides actionable advice for anyone looking to improve their sleep.
Here’s what we cover in this insightful conversation:
- The Myth of Perfect Sleep: Nick explains why chasing perfection in sleep is counterproductive and emphasizes consistent improvement over rigid expectations.
- Managing Anxiety and Sleep Disruptions: Discover practical methods for addressing nighttime anxieties, such as journaling, mindfulness, and self-dialogue techniques like those from the book Chatter.
- Balancing Structure and Flexibility in Sleep Plans: Nick highlights the importance of personalization in sleep strategies, encouraging listeners to adapt structured plans to fit their unique needs while remaining flexible.
- Sleep and Physical Pain: Learn how to manage sleep while dealing with chronic pain, including the balance between pain management and holistic sleep solutions.
- The Role of Societal Norms in Sleep Patterns: Explore how modern culture and societal pressures impact our sleep and why understanding the value of rest is crucial to overall well-being.
- The Habit Lock Method: Nick introduces his three-part system for building sustainable sleep habits. This method, developed through years of research, stacks multiple techniques to enhance the likelihood of success.
Nick’s expertise shines as he breaks down complex topics into simple, actionable steps, making better sleep achievable for everyone. He also offers a free pre-published copy of his Habit Lock guide for listeners to implement his methods immediately.
Learn MoreExplore more of Nicholas Stewart’s work and access his book here. For additional resources and coaching, visit SleepFitnessCoach.com. Connect with Nick professionally on LinkedIn: Nicholas Stewart.
You may also refer to the transcripts below for the full transcription (not edited) of the interview.
Interview Transcipt -Not EditedEmailDownloadNew TabWelcome back to inside personal growth for round true. with Nick Stewart. we have his book right here. Yeah. Sleep fitness for all of you who didn't hear the first pod cast. We're going to put a link to that in this one. But this podcast will stand on its own regardless. Even though Nick did a prior podcast with this.
Oh, yeah. the new material, no new material this time. And as we said, I guess I didn't get all my questions. So we're going to get two more questions, and I promise Nicky can come back on. But Nick, because some people will listen to this out of sequence. I'm going to tell them a little bit about you.
So in 2018, Nick suffered from a sleep catastrophe due to harmful medical treatment. he went without sleep for 17 consecutive nights, which is commonly defined to be the record, and it took him several years to recover. He had to be hospitalized multiple times during that period. And despite the setback, Nick didn't give up. before Nick was a professional level coach helping young adults from violent communities secure internships with fortune 500 companies, he noticed that sleep issues were a recurring problem hindering their progress.
to his surprise, Nick. Nick felt inspired to return to coaching and became a certified sleep science coach. And that is his role today. And if you want to learn more about him, we are going to have a link to their website, which is Sleep Fitness coach.com. You can also email Nick directly at Nick at Sleep Fitness coach.com.
Go out and get a copy of this book. If you're having trouble sleeping, but we're going to cover some of the things we didn't cover last time. with Nick and I think I had given him like 15 questions and we maybe got through about 7 or 8 of them. So he went through that and said, okay, let's do this again.
So, you know, look, I know last time we covered a lot, but let's just kind of dig in as a way that you could, I think, uplevel this podcast so that individuals really understand more about the issues associated with sleep. The common problems people have. So you mentioned that perfect sleep is unattainable and it's more about consistent improvement.
Now you kind of say that throughout the book. What strategies do you recommend for setting realistic sleep goals that avoid this perfection trap? Right. It's like okay, yeah, I'm supposed to sleep nine hours tonight. Oh no, my dog woke me up. Or, you know, there was a loud noise and a boom. And I woke up and I couldn't get back to sleep or whatever it may have been.
Yeah. Talk with us about that. Because look at my Apple Watch. Your Apple Watch, the aura ring, whatever people are wearing. You said in the last interview that they aren't super accurate. Yeah, sometimes they're not. So I'd say the first two things that jump out is one, I want to hit one point that is very common, like you said, for folks, and make that clear.
And then second, I want to do like you said and actually give you guys a layer behind what happens in the coaching and what the method is to get some of these new routines to stick. and I'll surprise you a little bit when we get there. I have some cool tricks, and this is something you can use.
Anyone can use to shape or get a routine to become more consistent in your life. And it could be physical fitness. Could be anything. but I'll get there. So the first thing that comes out to me about the perfection thing is almost everyone I've worked with has that moment like, we'll get to the end of the 90 minute session, Greg, and they'll be like, oh, oh, oh, but I'm traveling in two weeks, like two weeks from now and I'll be busy.
I won't be able to. It's like, settle down, try to think of it like physical fitness. If you missed a workout or two, is that going to destroy the last three months or month of your work? Now you're going to be okay. Like if you miss a meal or you or you, you know, you had ice cream one weekend and you're working on your diet, is that going to blow your whole diet away?
No. So I usually have to remind them, like if that's it works the same way. Just because you have a one off is not going to do it. And then at night when that one, I have people who, like freak out because it hasn't happened. At the same time. Again, there's a rule that I have about a 1 or 2 rules I give clients, and I'll tell you the first one, because even the first one for some people can actually correct their insomnia.
I have a woman who I worked with like a year ago, actually didn't even work with her. She was working with me on some e-course development, but had mentioned she'd been suffering for ten years with insomnia. And just at the last minute I was like, I'm going to throw over this one rule that I have for new clients.
And just this. She was nice to me. And then I checked in with her like 4 or 5 weeks later. So the rule is no suffering in bed. That's the rule. And then, of course, the client will say, well, what do you mean? I say, it could come out in different ways. usually it's like, oh, oh my.
Oh, it's two in the morning. I don't know if I've slept yet. And now I'm starting to get upset. I have how many hours before I have to wake up and get to work. Okay. And then now I look at the clock, and now it says 330. Now it says, for now I'm panicking. Right? That's pretty common for folks.
So now now we're panicking. And then, Greg, when you're in that state, what's the next like sort of self critical question. You say to yourself there's something wrong. And then that leads to there's something wrong with me. And that's why I think it's chapter three in my book. That's why I have my clients read my book. Now, at first I didn't because I thought it was too arrogant, like, you're my client now, buy my book to hear him.
And then after several interactions with new clients, I realized, darn it, the last 90 minutes could have been saved if you had just read chapter X. And so now I require them to. But that chapter and that's one I'm happy to send to folks for free, is the one about how we're designed to stay awake for several days.
So once you internalize that and you really own it, in those moments in the mid morning when you want to panic, if you're playing with me, then the game is that you got to tell yourself, oh well, I am designed to stay up. It's not like there's something going on. So the rule of no suffering just basically says the second you realize your suffering in bed, out, get out of the room.
Right. It's sort of like Pavlov's dog. Like the like you're you're training this negative association. So take the what's one woman who I ended up telling her, I said, hey, listen, the moment that that kind of thing happens, you love your couch. I love my living room. Great. What's your favorite? What's your favorite, nonfiction or fiction book?
Go to the living room. Dim lights. Just do that. And when you feel like you want to go back to bed, head back. And if you have to do it again, go back. In the year that I've been working with folks, anyone who's done it, the moment that they go back, they've never had to get back up. So I was like, I should go check on this lady, Greg.
So I said messenger and she writes back like neck ten. Yeah, insomnia. And then this I sleep now what about these people? And it happens to all of us at points in our life, you know, you know, maybe have a shoulder injury or a back injury or a knee injury or foot or ankle injury, but you have pain and you have to take that pain to bed as well.
And frequently those pains can be long enough and protracted enough that they literally start to interfere with your sleep. I'll give you an example. I tore my meniscus in my knee. Now the doctor did an X-ray, blah blah blah said, hey, look, go to the orthopedic. Then it started to get better and I said, give me some. physical therapy.
But the reality is I actually have to hang my left leg out the side of the bed to get some relief from the pain, right? So that I can actually get to sleep. What do you what do you kind of. I know, because a lot of doctors go, well, I'm going to give you some muscle relaxants or I'll give you some sleep aids.
I'll give you some things that'll put you to sleep. I'm not a big advocate of that. what do you kind of tell people when a doctor says, I'll give you some sleeping pills? Oh, you want to see? I thought you were going to ask about the pain one. So I would just say, for folks, if you're interested in the, drilling down on Greg's question about pain and sleep, just a couple weeks ago, I was on with a doctor who's a pain specialist.
And so that podcast will come out and probably a couple of weeks. So if you just follow me, you'll get a big deep dive into the question. So you just want to know what happens when the doctor says you're take these sleep pills. Well, I'd like to know that. And I'd like to know what kind of recommendations you might have from somebody who's dealing with a bit of physical pain, maybe like, a back pain or something strange or, you know, they haven't gotten it adjusted or, you know, because there's a lot of people that will just live with it, right?
And not go on for weeks. There and there. Wake up in the middle of the night. I gotta move this way. I gotta move that way. Any. I mean, I'm I'm not certain you can give any recommendations, but I thought, well, maybe here's the sleep doctor. He could give some recommendations. Well, I think the to tackle the first one to your question about when people immediately give you medications, there's this crazy stat, this guy about a CEO from the neuroscience company I know in Canada told me that in Canada, someone with insomnia will go ten years before they tell their doctor.
So it's like I said to him. I said, I really hope that what you just said wasn't true, or but I have a feeling that you wouldn't have asked me on this show if it was. Wasn't true. And I would say, if you haven't slept for three nights or more and you go to your doctor and they hand you something that will knock you out, take it and knock yourself out.
Now, if you're just having infrequent sleep, then have a broader conversation because none of the research on the efficacy and the the long term impacts of sleep medications are terrible. Greg. They're terrible. I have a webinar that I'm going to do eventually, and I've actually had moments where I'm a little nervous about reporting what this like over the population size I tested was over 400,000 international.
So the results, I'm pretty confident they figured it out. I'm worried that like a drug company is gonna be like, hey, Nick, come here, get in the black limo and no one sees me again because the results are bad. They're not good. But I'm a holistic coach, and so I never come to extreme on the side, so I'm like, Greg, you.
You know, if you want to work on your sleep and you have pain, my thing is like, you should be seeing a pain management person who's a traditionalist. You should be telling them to head on and be on the medication forever. But maybe for the next couple of months, that's what I need while I work on my sleep with somebody.
To me, that's that's my that's my personal philosophy is to get both and get them on. Interestingly that you bring this up, Greg, I'm releasing like a quick little video about irrational excitement. There's this new sort of jump from researchers in this world that you're talking about who are like, wow, good sleep heals pain. Yes it does. It is on the show.
I called it a pain injection. If you go like that, those 17 nights that I didn't sleep, Greg. Oh, boy. If I had by day five, my hamstrings and legs, they were poles. They were like iron poles. Man. So yeah, I made the video to be like listen, even though I'm a sleep guy I should be like, yeah, sleep is the solution to everything.
But it's like whoa. Like let's slow down a little bit. Like Greg's examples already tells you he's in enough pain. He has the limp, his leg off the side of the mattress, and we think that him magically getting great sleep is going to fix this. This is. This is too far. You know, he needs some pain management, traditionally speaking, coupled with getting a good coach who's holistic can work with him.
now, Greg, I'm sure you've seen there's a lot of sleep coaches out there who and books that like their sell point to you is we can do this with no medication. Maybe they got tricks I don't know about, but personally, I just think having the experience of my own chronic pain in my life that you really need a balance of both and then sifting away, you know, the medication over time.
So that's my answer that, you know, you're okay with that. Is that far? I mean, well, look, whether you go to a physical therapist or you go to a chiropractor or an acupuncturist or whatever it is, or you do, you know, cold plunges or soreness, I don't really care what it is, but if it gets you to a state of of physical equilibrium, meaning everything is like feeling good, right?
You're going to have your most optimal sleep then, right? Yeah. So that brings me to this saying, you know, we didn't cover this last time, but it was question 11. it's really in chapter ten, you explore how societal norms and modern culture impact our sleep habits. And and I and I know you're going to come up with the ones about the blue light, the rest of the stuff, and being in front of screens like you and our you and I are now, what are some of the most significant societal pressures or misconceptions?
Yeah, that negatively affect our ability to achieve healthy sleep. So I love it. I'm on to hearing what you have to say there, my friend. Well, I love it because you've we've already got gotten ourselves into it a little bit. And so this will sound like I'm redirecting, but it's really not because it's kind of part of a whole a holistic approach.
And I'd say the big misnomer. And I was on a show earlier this morning where the more likes, corporate leadership sort of vibe kind of thing in this came up as well. People fundamentally don't understand rest in our culture. Like like I got this morning, this guy this morning, we're talking about how like, yeah, I kind of I've always had this like work until I, I pass out.
Right. Like that's that that's like high achiever. That's what we do. So part of it is really educating folks about rest and I mean passive rest where we are physically passive and mentally passive. And so what the research that I found is that what you want to be doing is if you're computer facing worker A, you want to time how much time you spent at this computer.
Is it 30 minutes, 45 minutes, 60 or 90. And set a timer and then give yourself a rest or a restorative activity to do. Let's just take the rest. One what I usually have to educate a person on is that guess what? When you go and have your find your old space, it's very restful. Physically. And what I want you to do with your mind is nothing.
Just let your mind wander. This is not a mind. This isn't mindfulness meditation. This isn't just let it wander. It's almost doing what happens in that second deep sleep phase called REM sleep. It's working. It's quickly trying to take all that information from earlier in the day and sort it, organize it, see if there's other solutions. Right. People say, when do we want?
Do the greats come up with your greatest thoughts when they're in the shower because they don't have any agenda with their mind in the shower. So part of it is getting people to understand, like you need little sections of rest throughout the day. And it's not that you're not doing anything. People think, oh, I'm not being productive, and if I'm not being productive, then this whole resting and sleeping thing is just in the way.
So we need to make sure people readjust their understand of that. Well, you make an important point, Nick, and that is their relationship to productivity. In other words, hey, can you you can still produce, but you can be in harmony with your the balance of your body trying to be productive. It's time to rest. And I have a question for you, because I actually have a doctor who's a hypnotherapist and he works on my subconscious.
Well, now, we do know that the subconscious mind holds a lot, a lot of blockages for us, like how we think about ourselves. Right? you know, negatively, those what we call recurring thoughts that come up that like, you're not enough and they're the ones that actually sometimes come up at night when you before you go, before you go to bed.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. What what, do you advocate working with the hypnotherapist or anything like that to help people with subconscious, or do you have any ideas for them that you can give to them around? Oh, utilizing that, for anything that's going to get underneath, like you said, that it's like the hood of the car, right? Like we can't see Greg's subconscious, but we know that part of the engine is creating the good stuff and maybe causing some of the not so great stuff.
So. Right. For me, if a client comes to me and says, like, I'm working with hypnotherapist, I might even say to them, oh, cool, you've told me that your issue was X. See if you can't have the next several sessions with them, focus on X, because it might directly unpin this issue that you're having with your sleep, you know?
Yeah. Product product Tivity guilt is one that's come up with some of my recent clients where they're at night. They're they they'll tell me, like, I know it's not true, but I keep having these thoughts of like, maybe my boss doesn't think I'm doing enough. Maybe I'm, you know, like what? And one of the, things that this is a cool thing.
So if anyone is has the same thing where you kind of ruminate on stuff that has to do with, like your, your self-worth at work. There's a great book called chatter that's literally it's it's called chatter and it introduces very cool technique, Gregg. And you should totally try it sometime. If you're having a challenge. There's it's a it's easy and it's weird.
You talk to yourself with your own name. So you're like Gregg, you've been working at this for 20 years. You know that you're one of the top performers at work. You also know that your boss took you aside last month to tell you how much he appreciates you. You're fine. There's some weird mental thing about when you use your name in mental self-talk that, like, I don't know it.
Like it almost shakes. You're so like shakes your inner mental self up first. Yeah, that's actually I, I I I, I what you're saying is, you know, if you really study this and I have is, you know, gosh, start therapy is the same thing right. It's like oh okay, I'm going to go put myself in the chair and I'm going to talk to me, and then I'm going to come back and sit in that chair and make myself that.
And it it works. It works brilliantly. It's weird. I mean, it really does work. Like if you say, hey, Greg, you're old. Yeah. Or hey, so if there was somebody I was upset with and they weren't there, I might say, oh, I'm going to put Nick in that chair and I'm going to ask a question. Then I'm going to go over to that chair and pretend like I'm Nick, and I'm going to answer the question from Nick's perspective.
Right. So I'm getting a little deeper than what it is, but it truly does. It truly does work. Is Gestalt therapy or your own therapy on yourself? So everybody go out and get that book chatter. Because the reality is, yeah, if you're ruminating, it's a it's like kind of the book I give to people. I'm like, oh, you ruminate a lot.
And here you go. Like, this is a cool book that just focuses on that and I yeah, that's and what I'm doing is just in that first question we talked about, you know, suffering in bed. Right. I'm saying have the self dialog with yourself when it happens to go Nick, you were made to be able to stay up this long.
In fact, you could stay up for several more days. So let's dial down the whole anxiety thing. Let's go grab some camomile tea. Let's get up. and that I was surprised. Even this past week, I was talking to a guy, and, he he was down on himself because he had had a real busy week and didn't really do the sleep stuff that we had talked about as well.
But he ends up in reporting to me, Greg, he has sleep apnea and he's like, he's like, oh, but I but I did a couple times, did know suffering in bed. And I was like, tell me about it. This is not it's not easy totally to be in bed at night and then be like, I'm going to get up so that I can help myself, go to bed.
But I think working with me, he trusted the process. He's like, so I just took my mask off, got up, went down to the bathroom. I never told me to do any of the following. He's like, I took a cold, pressed to my head, to my back, and then I just went back to bed, put my sleep, you know, and I fell right to sleep.
I was like, dude, this is a victory, okay? Before, you just stayed in bed and you were suffering. Like, you don't need to be so down on yourself today. You did this twice. Yeah. And you did the same thing. And it took, what, less than five minutes out of his whole sleep time. Yeah. Right. So there is, like you said, you said you have to if you're being just that disturbed mentally over something, you know, we we call it the brain dump, right?
A lot of people just unfortunately, they take all these list to bed with them. Oh, I did it. I got to do that. I'm supposed to do this? I'm going to do that tomorrow. I'm sure you've heard this a zillion times. You know, why wouldn't you? Just as a simple thing, David Allen is the guy that came up with this.
I think you just do a brain dump. You say, oh, yeah, everything is on your mind and just write it all down so that tomorrow morning you don't lose the paper. It's sitting there, right? You want to put it next to your bed? The other thing somebody told me during one of these podcasts is when they have those recurring thoughts, they literally have like one of those little handheld tape recorders.
Next to him. Well, you don't need a tape recorder. Just put your iPhone over there and say, hey, I'm going to record this note under the iPhone or whatever it might be. But the reality is it gets it off of your consciousness and on to this ubiquitous, recording device. Right? It's like, hey, it doesn't matter what it is really.
Right. Or not like piece of paper. But the reason the woman told me she used recorder because she didn't have to turn on the light. Right? And I thought, okay, that's really anything that I can talk into that'll take my thoughts off my head that I've got doing. I'm just going to talk to it and say it. Baba, baba, baba bam.
Put it, put it away. so you you, Greg, your listeners are so lucky, man. I mean, I just want you to know, like, your listeners are so lucky because I know that to you and me, it's like, oh, we've we've heard this and we've talked about it, but like, a lot of people don't know that, you know, and like to add on to some of the things we've talked about today, right?
When I get people who are starting mindfulness meditation, which we should talk a little bit about, if we can, is, I say, if the same thought comes up 2 to 3 times, yeah, grab the piece of paper and write it down. Same thing at night. Like if or I'm sorry. During those resting ten minute periods, I'm teaching folks who are like more concerned about burnout.
They're like, hey, listen, I'm a little worried I'm going to get burned out. I need help with this. I teach of these rest periods, but I'm like, always have a little notepad next to you. Yeah. Don't. Because your brain wants to do right. Right is what it wants to do is go. I've had idea X I'm going to show you.
I have to keep it. I have to keep it. So I better keep thinking about it. This these these little note things. Nick. Here. This is what I do. Greg's bringing out the toys. No, I'm giving out this. Do you see this? I can't do it. Yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah. Oh. Is that is that like a pocket.
Pocket. Yes. This is, these are a 799. You get two of them on Amazon. They called notebook. And your pen fits right there. Yeah I carry this thing everywhere. Right. So my point is this. It's like, look, whether you use recorder, is that this or it doesn't matter to me. The point is, if you have something that comes in, have someplace to record it.
So you don't forget it. Yeah. Then what you ruminate on night at night. I know this because I have many years of sleeping. That you ruminate on the stuff you forgot, forgotten. Then your mind's going, I'm thinking I. There was something I supposed to do. There's something I supposed to do. And. And then you get wrapped up into trying to figure out and remember what it was you were supposed to be doing.
Right? And I'm saying record that as quickly as possible so you don't forget. and wow, there's one other thing about having those dedicated rest periods, and I've actually had a guy come back and tell me this himself. No cell phone right during that time, like, and I already knew that if you're engaging with the cell phone in a rest period, they won't let you get to the default mode where your body is restoring itself energetically for the day.
And he came back a week later and was like, hey, by the way, this one led to no neck that first week that I was doing some of those rest periods throughout the day and I like, wouldn't shut up about how like, great I felt. The next week I brought my cell phone and it didn't work. It's like, so whatever you coach on this, the next time, like make sure that they don't bring their cell phone for that.
I mean, they can bring it as a timer, but if you're interacting with it, you're not going to get the restorative energy that you need for the day. Right. And that's the other thing you bring up that's important. You know, like we all have, whether it's an iPhone or an Android or whatever, we've got it. I never put this by my bedside.
Never, ever, ever, ever. Right. Because if I did and I recorded into it, I literally then would be encouraged to go look at whatever was on the damn thing. So I think the idea that the woman told me where she had one of those, like, little digital recorders, this is probably the best, alternative. Yeah. They're cheap. They're super cheap.
Yeah. you know, get one. So no, you mentioned that. No to sleep plans are the same. And the idea of introducing a little anarchy into sleep solutions. How can people balance trying a structured sleep plan and allowing for flexibility and personalization? I've never had a structured sleep plan. I have a structured time, I go to bed and sometimes I fall asleep very quickly, and other times I don't.
But when I'm not falling asleep quickly, as you said, I will allow myself to get up and go downstairs and get a cup of tea, or walk around or go outside and get in the fresh air, do whatever it is that I need, and then I go back up to bed and I usually 90% of that time fall asleep.
Right. So what is this? What is this balancing between structured and flexible? Yeah, yeah. And I remember that question when you originally had it. And one of the things will sound funny when I say it, but don't come to a fight with one weapon. yeah. Load up, stack the deck I give. I'm not sure if I shared this with you before, but there's a Hindu god has called Durga and she said she is the one with the eight arms with eight different weapons.
I didn't share that last time, but that's okay. So. So my answer, my it's sort of part of my answer is that. So let's pretend that we were like, no, I really want to follow the traditional, endorsed sleep insomnia program from the National Science Academy. Okay. That's going to be CBT in my book. I would say, fine, use use to certain things that you liked.
I will also tell them don't use the journal exercise they give you. And I'll tell you exactly why in a moment. I'd also say we need to work on your physical environment. CBT says nothing about anything that has to do with your physical environment. Well, I've had people who've just adjusted things in their physical environment and had major changes to their sleep.
So to me, CBT is missing some things and also can make people miserable in other areas. But the first thing, if you really wanted their sleep restriction method, I always call it the surgery. The medical surgery of insomnia because a it can be very painful. It can be, a little stressful, and some people sometimes are terribly offended by it.
But if I had someone who was like, I'm dead set on using that, I'd be like, cool, let's use it. I've done it with several clients. Let's use that. But let's take a couple things from other places. And like I said to you, Greg, my thing to them is why is this whole thing going to work? Because we're stacking the deck in your favor.
We're not just going CBT alone. We're not just going hypnotist alone. We're looking. How many things can I add that really? It's just a matter of time that whatever that issue is, it's going to lose. It's going to fall away. It's going to disappear. In my work with people, sometimes I get the question like, what was the moment when your insomnia ended?
And I'm like, it's it doesn't really work that way. No, no, no. And and hopefully we can sneak back because I want to share an excerpt from a book and a little offer for your for your guys or your listeners is that when it comes to sleep issues, really for most people, I've had a couple people who were like, wow, you know, like, I did it for a week and I'm fine.
But for most of us, it's like shedding skin, you know? So once and I'm going to share this, this method that I used, I use this method over time. I can't even remember exactly when it finally, but I finally realized like, oh, it's over. It wasn't like I did the one, two, three for those 12 weeks and bam, that sleep issue that I was having when I woke up every three hours is gone now.
It just sort of, over time, sloughed off like skin, like a snake was scratching. Makes my aggression. Well, yeah. Because like gradual progression in the way you're explaining it, it's like, look, if we're having a pain or discomfort associated with the sleep and we psychologically need to alter and as you said, not just psychologically but physically, right. Physically alter our space psychologically, work on ourselves, hypnotherapist, physically work on yourself.
You know, chiropractic, PT, whatever the heck it is. The point is you're trying to get the body to this state. I'm just going to say it have kind of homeostasis, right? It's like, okay, I want to get to that homeostasis place because that's where I rejuvenate the cells in my body is like, okay, I'm rejuvenating myself. So I get that, you know, to come out of whatever you did, this insomnia for 17 days just didn't happen.
Like, boom, okay, I'm done, I'm done. I'm there. It was a gradual progression. And then you realize, hey, I'm sleeping through the night. This is kind of cool. Yeah. Right. Yeah. And I think that I think people get anxiety over, let's face it, the number one in my book, reason for Sleepless Nights, is anxiety over shit that we make up.
That's hardly ever going to come true. So if you're in the world of making stuff up, go ahead and make all that stuff up you want about, hey, my world is falling apart and my job so I'm going to get a job. Sucks. I'm not making enough money. I can't make my pay. My bills were you can go make all of that up.
But I can tell my listener years and years of insight, personal growth, 90% of that never comes true, right? At least not in the way you thought. No, not in the way you thought it was going to come through. So your idea around meditation, mindfulness, presence is so important. You know, I've been studying this for years and years and years, and it's not a matter of studying.
It's a matter of practicing you. Because now you just nailed one of the first things that and I and these little cards came in over of the week, a hundred mindful prompts for self-care and stress relief. We have good synergy moments. So one of the things was this, this came in from another author's author. There's also a book called Ideas Idea Space.
But I'm going to just just wait for a second. Hang on. Nick, we got time. We got a little bit of time. I'm gonna try and pull one of these cards out, and they're in categories, right? Because we actually, we screw ourselves up in categories. Right. so I'm just going to pull one up for the 100. Okay.
Look, on one side it says I don't know if you can read this. You probably can't listener. But I'm going to read. Oh it started it started to learn the rules like a pro so that you can break them like an artist. Pablo Picasso, do something daring today and he turn it over. strange, isn't it? Each man's life touches so many others lives.
What actions did you take today that have caused ripple effects? And what were the intentions behind them? Right itself. Writing prompt. They are. They're all. But they're also good mindfulness prompts because to be mindful of what it is that I'm doing, I want to be mindful of my intentions. So when you tell people to set intentions and be mindful, right, using that and and you like we said last time, remember this, I think I said it last time, act as if a camera was following you around 24 hours a day.
And did you like what you saw? No. You haven't. That's cool. I've not heard that before. And then if you didn't like what you saw, then what the hell are you going to change about it? Right? Right. So in other words, what is your day look like? What does next day look like? I'm going to do the following with my iPhone.
I'm going to take picture of them all day long and then I'll play it back for him. He's going to look ahead. He's going to go, wow, I didn't know I was doing that. I didn't know I was doing that right. Yeah. So those are the kind of things that if you're trying to I think in my humble opinion, I'm not the sleep coach here, but those are the things you're in good shape,
I said you're in good shape, Greg. Yeah, I was saying that those are the kind of things that affect me. Yeah. Number one, address this if you would. The self-imposed anxiety that we place on self, which affects our sleep. What are you going to tell the listeners about that? I would say grab the chatter, book a B, talk to a therapist, see what do you need to build in a pre-writing routine that happens in your nighttime routine before bed period?
Always the research is painfully there. It's way less. Yeah, prescription was painless, Mr.. Doctor. That was I. I literally spent like I think I think this one guy and I spent almost 4 or 5 hours on a session together. And at the end, he the both of us, I think, thought we're going to be dead exhausted by the end of this.
And instead, when we had his sort of nighttime and daytime routine set up based on this method that I was going to share with you today, we we both we were like, fine, because we realized what you just said. We're like, this is easy. We've structured it to be easy, even though it's going to be very powerful and impactful and work over the next several weeks.
It's easy. And that first, with clients, I would laugh at myself. I'm like, you would think I'm going to come out with this really sophisticated thing, but instead all I've done is said, you know, when the sun goes down, make sure you wear these these blue blocking glasses. Until bedtime. Now, you look really handsome, Greg, where are these?
And everything looks amazing. But after the sun goes down, throw these on, you know, 60 minutes before bed. Do your free writing and then the mindfulness thing or whatever, and then go to bed and put your CPAp thing on. I'm like, after all this, my recommendation is free writing. It took six years to be like, this is the thing that's going to help you the most with your ruminating thoughts, you know?
And and truth was in less than four weeks of of this guy is one guy that I was working with recently of just doing a little bit of free writing, even just talking to me about that. That was something on his mind has resolved. Yeah. Is resolved to nothing. And now he doesn't have to structure his nighttime sleep.
He just goes, oh, I just feel like it's time to go to sleep. And he does. And I'm like, bro, this is a big victory. Like a lot of people, we still have to be very regimented and like do things at certain times. Like you've now moved to a place where you're, you're you're listening to your body, you know, like he was down on himself and I'm like.
You're missing the victory. Yeah. And my goal for you is to not have to remember any of this crap that I teach you about sleep, because I think one of the points I wanted to make when I came back to your, to your show was that and this was a big turnaround, and it's something I want to give you, your audience for free, is that I learned sleep knowledge does not equal good sleep.
And I'll give you two examples. One, I'm going to read a short paragraph from a new book I have not published yet. And then from clients, Greg, I would have clients who, when they first meet me, are like, oh yeah, I know. And then they would tell me about sleep phases. There's the deep wave sleep phase. Then you transition into that and that would tell me all these things and I would listen and go, oh, that's cool.
Greg, how are you sleeping? Oh I'm not, you know, I'm I'm getting less than four hours of sleep. So it's like pretty clear. It's like, well, as much as, you know, it's not helping you. And I was in the same boat. And so I just want to share this little written piece. And then if we have time, I'll share quickly what the method is.
But if not, I got a cool offer for your listeners. So I wrote it hit me hard. They're in my home office, buried under an avalanche of sleep research and self-help books. When I realized something unsettling no pill, no medication app, and no midnight Reiki session was going to save me from my sleep disaster, my shelves were heaving under the weight of books with the highlighted pages.
Dog eared corners, and scribbled notes. Piles of scientific journals are stacked along the floors like monuments to my obsession. At that moment, I could see it was all for what it was a self-created sleep university. But here's the thing I was still a hollow, desperate insomniac for all of the facts and figures I crammed into my head. I wasn't any closer to getting a decent night's sleep.
And so I share that because, hey, if you feel like you know a lot about sleep, but you're not sleeping well now, you know one doesn't follow the other. Perfect, right? Right. There is no correlation there. Exactly. But we all think that there really is. so I'll leave it at that. But I'll say that there was a three part method that after I basically stopped all sleep research and started studying everything and anything on change and eventually came down to this three part method.
And I'm looking at our time, and I don't think we'll have time for me to share it with you, but where are you going to what do you want to give my listener? Yeah, I'm going to have a gift for him. They're all sitting there going, oh, this is guy's gift. Yeah. So, so so what? What? I came up with the art of doing the same thing I did to sleep.
But I did the change research. I came down to this little method called the habit lock. And so in this little 100 page book that I published, probably in a year from now, it's done. I actually share exactly the thing that I used, so that I reinforced these habits that are hard to reinforce by human nature, and eventually did release myself from insomnia that no doctor could help me with for two and a half years.
So my free thing for your listeners, because you're awesome and you had me come back, is if you email me Habit Lock, I will send you the unpublished book for free. The entire thing. It has so it has big myths about change that I do. And then it will go through exactly this little three part system. And why it when you calculate up all the percentages of probability of it working because of the different ones I put in, it gives you a 300% chance of success.
So I always ask, is that a good enough percent for you to to give it a whirl. Right. Do you need it any higher than that. So it's say it's good. So great. Well good. So we're going to have we're going to put your email address in the blog entry. and for all the listeners who are listening right now and want to write this down, just send it directly to Nick at Sleep fitness.com and then ask for the habit blocker, lock it right.
Habit lock. Habit lock I'm sorry. Habit lock. They don't have to say who you are. And I will reply and I will tell you the pre published full version okay. And Nick again pleasure having you back on the podcast. Pleasure. Speaking about some of the things that people could do that are very simple. Really quite simple. Yeah.
To improve their sleep quality to inst and to improve their sleep quantity, and for them to rejuvenate their bodies every night when they go to bed, because that's really what they're trying to do. So I want to thank you for all your wisdom and your knowledge and support and expertise and everything that you've provided to the listeners over the last two podcasts.
We'll post this along with the link to podcast number one, but thanks so much for being on insight, personal growth, and taking the time to be with the listeners today. I love being here. We love working with you, Greg. Take care. Take care. Chief. Namaste. Stay. Hi, brother.
Thank you for listening to this podcast on Inside Personal Growth. We appreciate your support. And for more information about New Podcast, please go to Inside Personal growth.com or any of your favorite channels to listen to our podcast. Thanks again and have a wonderful day.
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Inside Personal Growth with Greg Voisen · Podcast 1176: The Women Who Loved Jesus: The Untold Story of the Women’s Evangelistic CorpsIn a recent episode of Inside Personal Growth, host Greg Voisen sat down with spiritual author and teacher, Donna D’Ingillo, to discuss her insightful book, The Women Who Loved Jesus: The Untold Story of the Women’s Evangelistic Corps. This powerful work sheds light on the women who were deeply involved in Jesus’ ministry, often overlooked in traditional narratives.
Donna, a lifelong student of the Urantia Book, shares how her studies and meditation led her to uncover the stories of these women who played pivotal roles in healing and supporting early Christian communities. Through her Institute of Christ Consciousness, Donna aims to continue Jesus’ message of love, inclusion, and spiritual growth.
The Spiritual Legacy of the Women’s Evangelistic CorpsDonna recounts her first vision of these women in 1999, which included a powerful image of twelve women, clothed in radiant, ancient attire, commissioned by Jesus to carry forth His message. This vision would shape her spiritual path and ultimately inspire her to write The Women Who Loved Jesus. Each of these women had a unique role, embodying the compassion and empathy that complemented the teaching of Jesus’ male apostles.
As Donna explains, Jesus’ acceptance of women as ministers was revolutionary. He provided them with a sense of divine dignity, which was radical in a society where women held secondary status. This message of equality and compassion resonates even today.
Highlights from the Podcast The Call to Heal: Many of the women in Jesus’ ministry felt a deep calling to serve. They provided essential care to those in need, including the elderly, the infirm, and women and children. This ministry was not about preaching but rather about embodying Jesus’ love through healing practices and compassionate support. * A Reconnection with the Divine Feminine: Donna emphasizes the importance of reconnecting with the “Divine Mother” aspect of spirituality, which nurtures a sense of peace, safety, and unity in an often divisive world. * Key Takeaways from Donna:* Donna invites readers to return to Jesus’ simple gospel of faith in the Creator and loving service to humanity. She encourages readers to reconnect with the “Spirit of Truth” that Jesus gifted to the world, providing us with the courage to live authentically and purposefully.
For more insights and to explore Donna’s work further, you can visit her website or connect with her on LinkedIn.
You may also refer to the transcripts below for the full transcription (not edited) of the interview.
Interview Transcipt -Not EditedEmailDownloadNew TabGreg Voisen
Welcome back to Inside personal growth. This is Greg Voisen, the host of inside personal growth. And we have a guest joining us from Florida and Donna. This is her book. It is called the women who love Jesus, and the subtitle is the untold story of women's evangelist. Good day to you, Donna, how you doing?
I'm very well. Thank you for having me on your program, Greg, it's good to be and
Greg Voisen
we got connected through Ryan bellitos. And Ryan is someone who has been on the show many times, and we'll put a link because he just did an interview on his book around Urantia, and that's what this is all about. Donna is a lifelong student of the rancho book, and one of the first full time ministers of the expanded gospel of Jesus based upon the Urantia revelation. She's a renowned pioneer and celestial contact. She is also the founder and executive director of her website, which you can go to and it's called the Institute of Christ consciousness, in addition to an extensive spiritual healing and counseling ministry, she conducts workshops and center seminars and hosts popular online sessions each week in which she leads groups and workshop prayer and global healing. She also has other books, one called Teach us to love. That was a one done in 2011 Divine Mother, Divine Father, 2016 and the women who love Jesus, which was done last year. And that's the book that we will put a link to Amazon about. Well, thank you for being on.
Oh, my pleasure. Very excited to share with your listening audience today. Well,
Greg Voisen
we hope that, based on the work of the Arancha that we've already profiled here at the website, that we'll just do a little bit more and see how many people she's got a nice labyrinth behind her. Actually, I don't think that's a real labyrinth. It's a picture of a labrath, but it's there.
It's actually a real and, well,
Greg Voisen
it's a real labyrinth, but it's just a picture behind the screen. Right, right?
Yeah, it's not mine. I did not create it, unfortunately. But
Greg Voisen
she's in Delray Beach, Florida. So that looks like it could be, because it looks like there's kind of a little inlet of water right there behind you, right
on a beautiful lake. This is actually a place up in Minnesota where the labyrinth is, ah,
Greg Voisen
well, there's a lot of very spiritual people in Minnesota. I've been there and spent time with them. So the the women in this book played significant roles in Jesus's ministry, and the history often is overlooked. Many of my listeners already know about the Urantia Book and the work of the Urantia, but obviously you want to weave it into this so that they understand where you're coming from. How did you first come across these accounts, and what was your initial reaction, you know, kind of to their stories. Because this is really about the women who love Jesus and and specifically, yeah,
my first contact with the women began in December of 1999 I was meeting with the two two friends who were also your Rancho book readers, two ladies who are also interested in healing, as I was and as we were discussing, I had a very strong mental image of 12 Women garbed in luminous, ancient clothing in my mind's eye, and I told my friends what I was seeing, and I got the impression that they were the the 12 women evangelists that Jesus commissioned to be his female apostles. And as I told them about that, I felt like they were encouraging us to develop a healing core, or healing ministry. And then, as I told my friends what I was seeing, Jesus appeared behind the 12 women with his hands outstretched, with each woman lined up between his hands, and they were just radiating down upon us, this love and encouragement to do this type of ministry. And I told my friends what I was experiencing, and we were just hugging and crying. It was very emotional, because we could feel their love and their encouragement. So I never was able to really get something started with these two friends. And fast forward to November of 2010 when I made the shift, because that happened when I was in the Bay area of California, and I moved to Delray, Florida. And then they came back to me when I was conducting a meditation, and they said, We want to talk to you. We want you to start a healing ministry again. And so that night, when I went into further meditation, they started telling me more about who they were, especially the fact that they were able to relate to Jesus in a way that the male apostles didn't, because they had a greater affinity to the Divine Mother Spirit, who is the mother of our universe and is the representation of the feminine energies to humanity. And they also talked about how they formed a social fabric in their healing ministry, where they ministered to women and children, the infirm and the elderly, in such a state of love and grace that Jesus was able to convey to them that it formed a social network of great love, which began to form into the later developing Christian religion. They did not know it at the time, that that's what was being birthed by their ministry. But it was very different, because the men were the preachers and the teachers, but the women were the healers. So
Greg Voisen
so this came, this came to you, Donna in meditation in the 90s, late 90s, the first contact, the first and then you shared it with groups of women. And then from there, you've continued to convey this message out to the world, which then ultimately ended up in this book right that you've recently written. Would that be a true statement?
Uh, it partially. I had a women's healing group for seven years where I had a group of women. We were meeting on the phone regularly, and we were working with the women. And then that ended in 2017 and they came back to me in 2018 and they said, We want you to tell our story. And that's when I went into meditation. A friend held space for me. And for the next year, between March 2019 and march 2020, that's when I got all of their stories. And COVID hit, and so everything went flat. And then it was, it was, yeah, after COVID, they said, Okay, it's time to pick the book up again. And that's when I gave it to my editor, Byron belitzos, and then he, he, he put it together for me, and and then it was, yeah, so
Greg Voisen
Byron would be, actually the best source you could probably go to to put a book like this together, considering his background. Now, you know, you say in this story of, is it agaman? Agaman, agaman, what significance does agaman attribute to the way Jesus interacted with women, especially compared to her previous experiences? Now, many people, I think you should put some context. You're speaking with a pretty broad brush audience. They might not know who agaman is. They don't have your book at this particular point to make a reference to. So I think it's really important for you to put some context around that
algorithm was married and she was a widow, and in her tradition, she had a certain circumscribed role to play when she encountered Jesus, it was like in in this was pretty much the same experience for all of them. It was like his soul touched them in a way that it helped them step outside their conditioned boundaries imposed on them by their culture. And this is something that struck at their core of their who they were, their soul, and it helped them open up to who they really were as daughters of God to strike out on a different path. That was quite, quite astonishing for women at that time, because women were relegated to second class citizenship, and Jesus was able to strip all of that away and say to the public, women are equal in the eyes of God, with men and women, have the right to be ministers of the gospel. And so for agamon, that was a big life changing experience for her, especially at an age when she was probably just, you know, ready to move into the role of grandmother, but she took on a much larger role of moving into his healing ministry to minister to and help heal many other people who were ready to hear His message of spiritual liberation.
Greg Voisen
Interesting, off the wall. Kind of question for you, and I'm sure you've got an answer for this. How is it that in our today's world today, meaning right now, we have this very strong Christian group that's in sport support of one candidate. So we're saying Christian, and we have another segment of the population, which obviously is very concerned about women's rights. So we're now speaking about women, how, what? How would you Donna actually conflate that and look at that?
I think it is very important to remember that Jesus spoke to the soul of the individual. Christianity later evolved into a certain set of precepts, dogma, traditions and rituals about his life. And for me, in my own relationship with Jesus, he really brought me back to my authentic self, and so in my own life, I developed more of a personal relationship with him and my higher self that serves as a moral compass. And I think what we're seeing in our political culture is that there are some very lines of divisiveness, and I don't think that that is part of Jesus Gospel. I think he is here to unify people in the fact that we are all going to have different opinions and values based on our life experiences, but where we can share a unified sense is that we are all sons and daughters of God, brothers and sisters in a loving family. And even though we may disagree with one another, we still are being called to overlook all of the differences that we have and find our commonality, which is at the spiritual level.
Greg Voisen
I think that's, that's a really good way to put that. Now, of these 12 women, you know, when you go through, I think you to give some context to our listening audience, because you've got Joanna, you've got all of these different women in a Chapter pretty much dedicated Martha to each one, right? And so I think as you've written this, they obviously, there's obviously a story around each one of them. But who are they? And tell our listeners really, give them some context for this women's evangelist core.
Okay, during Jesus public ministry, he went on around the whole region of what is now present day, Israel, Syria, probably even into Lebanon. There is a great account in the Urantia Book about all of his public teachings and where he went, so he always amassed a group of people who were interested in in what he was saying, because it was so different from the traditional or religious Jewish approach to to to spirituality and religion. So people would come out to hear him, and the women would be the same. They had the same level of curiosity, so they would come out to hear him. And it was like he drew people, not from just a all the different walks of life. It was just like he was speaking to a part of them, a part of each person. And today, he still still speaks to that same part of us. It's our soul. And he had such a he evokes such a strong soul response in each one of them that it got them thinking it got them to open up to their higher spiritual potential. One of the women, CELTA, was the daughter of a Roman Centurion. She actually left her family. She was in the role of being trained as a Roman housewife, if you will, Roman mother. She completely left that to to follow Jesus. Some of the women were attached to the male apostle families.
Greg Voisen
Martha was the sister of the apostles, Simon and Simon, Peter and Andrew. And Milka was the cousin of Thomas, Didymus Thomas, the doubting Thomas. And Ruth was the daughter of Matthew Levi. So they they all had some type of connection to him. But the most important thing was, when they heard him speak, what they told me was it was like there his words had energy, and it just pushed through some level of their consciousness to strike a chord in them that was so deep that made them want to follow him and devote their lives to public ministry. And I remember when they were transmitting their stories to me in meditation, that I could feel their emotions. I could feel their love for Jesus and His love for them. And it still moves me almost to tears today, because it's so beautiful, especially to give these women a sense of their own divine dignity, which their culture did not allow them to experience. And I think that that's still true today in the 21st century, that he will instill within each person that sense of divine dignity that says, Yes, you have a right to be who you are. Yes, you have a right to develop your sole purpose. Yes, you have a right to be validated as a human and and that is something that I think is going to carry forth, you know, 2000 years ago, all the way into the future. So that was really remarkable, that what he did, well, I would agree with you. And I think that, you know, women, obviously, and from the times that these women were there with Jesus to today, so much has happened. But you You took these stories from these women, and one of them I'm going to use. I'll just hold it up here. It's Rachel, okay, and you've got lovely pictures of these women at each one of the chapters. And I want to know what in Rachel's case, and how were they applied this healing techniques that she learned, and then how did they influence and basically applied, I'm sorry, how did she learn these healing techniques, and how did she apply them to early Christianity community, because I was just reading here how she was doing that. And for my listeners, here's this is Rachel. So can you give us a little bit of insight into Rachel?
Yes, Rachel was actually the sister in law of Jesus's human brother, Jude. Jesus had many brothers and sisters, and Rachel became attached to to Jesus through her soul opening and awakening. And keep in mind that Jesus was a love magnet. He exuded such a spiritual fragrance that if people were open to that, they were just drawn to him. And so what he taught them and and this is true for all of them, the quality of faith that precedes healing to he was so loving and compassionate and concerned for the plight of humanity that there was a certain kind of empathy bond that grew up between Jesus and the people to whom he ministered that the women were able to actually absorb. It's an energy you can absorb. You can imprint upon that, just like a baby imprints upon the love of his and her parents. It's the same principle. Jesus was so radiant of of this quality we call unconditional love, perfect love, perfect understanding of the individual, and he was able to help the women grow in that capacity. So when they were in their encampment following Jesus, there were many people who flocked to that encampment, and they needed healing. You know, there were many maladies of that day. And you know, the course the medical science wasn't as sophisticated as it is now, but they were very well trained in the application of healing herbs and essential oils. But there was another ingredient that Jesus was able to invoke in them, and that was that quality of love which heals everything. And they became so successful in that, that they drew other people. Love is a magnet, and when you're in that magnetism, it's palpable. You can feel it from other people. When you're around person who's who feels happy. You know you feel happy. It's the same thing with love. So over time, what it started to do was draw other women into the encampment, and they started to train other women to be healers and ministers of the Gospel of love, not necessarily the gospel of dogma that that later developed in Christianity, but the purity of love and faith that you can be healed, you can be made well and whole. And that environment formed what you might call the social network of the early evolving Christian church. Now it did not get into and they did not go into their part of the the what the males played, because there's, you know, enough historic record, but they wanted their story to be told, because this is a missing ingredient of how they were able to work through and with the Holy Divine Mother Spirit, the Holy Spirit who heals? Who is the healing presence for us? And Jesus taught them how to connect with the Holy Mother spirit and and help them remember that their femininity is a gift from God and it
Greg Voisen
has their they were this. They they were, in essence, the silent majority. But we had such a patriarchal society then that the matriarchal society, which is still evolving, actually is here today, and the women's role in that. And I think this book is as much for anybody that wants to learn about the evangelistic core and the roles that these women played, but also how it has formed, even kind of where we are today, from a different viewpoint of Christianity. I mean, that's, in essence, what you're saying, the dogma Christianity is not the one. And if somebody is actually studying the Urantia Book, they're going to realize that, because, as we said, as Byron told me, it's the reboot of the of the testament. He calls it the reboot. And so is this right? In essence, is so look, most people out there can relate to Mary Magdalene, some. Most of them are know her. What was her and first impression of Jesus, and how did it affect her spiritual path?
She had had a hard life up to the time when she met Jesus, and she was brought before Jesus by two of the women who went into the place where she was working in a brothel, and she had such an immediate response to Jesus. She said in her book that she completely fell apart when she when she was before him, because it was like all of her sins just came crushing, rushing at her, and just kind of she had an emotional breakdown. But what Jesus was able to do was kind of like glue the bits of her psyche back together and heal her in a way that all that baggage was gone. It was gone, and he gave her this sense of her divine dignity and self worth, which everyone needs to experience.
Greg Voisen
Well, I love your I love your little quote. Not to interrupt here, but the quote underneath her picture is, we are hoping to rectify the past, and especially to end the male domination that has long persisted within the church. I think that's a very appropriate and you're saying that she felt immediately healed when being able to meet Jesus, right, from all those sins that she had in her life, and that was really the biggest effect to her spiritually ever in her life, right?
I would say. So, yeah,
Greg Voisen
yeah. Well, it seems to be from the stories. So I'm going to pick another one, and it's Ruth. How did Ruth's appreciation for Divine Mother deepen during her time with the women's core, and how did this influence her ministry? And while you are speaking, I'm going to pull Ruth's picture up here. Here it is for everybody. There you go. So all these chapters and under hers, it says, Even though Jesus was male and body and appearance, he appealed to me beyond gender, his outs understanding of women was quite astonishing. So any comment about Ruth and her awakening as a result of her interaction with Jesus?
Well, for Ruth, I think what was most interesting for her growing up in a very patriarchal religion, and even though her father was an apostle, he still carried some of that residual male chauvinism, if you want to use that word, or you know that, that that dominance, dominance, You know, and and in Jesus, she found that that just wasn't there. It was like, Who is this guy? Why doesn't he have that? You know, this so unusual and and you know, some women are very feminine, and they're very much, what you might say, wired to the Holy Mother, divine spirit, that sense of compassion and holding space for others and providing a loving space for people. And I think that that's what he was able to evoke in her, because he was this huge energy. He was, he had, he lived in an energy field of pure love. And when you're a round person like that, it can expand your own capacities. And she just had this, you know, tremendous capacity to love that that is, you know, just for a lot of people, just a natural part of their human personality. And I think for her, that he just really resonated that so strongly that she could feel that and develop a much greater affinity to the Holy Mother spirit and become a great healer in that way. Well,
Greg Voisen
I would like to reflect on the fact that most spiritual leaders that hold that essence of pure love, let's just say the Dalai Lama, or, you know, I could go on with the list. But the reality is, is that there is something quite different when you meet them, when you experience them, their essence, their presence, their energy, their light field, right? And obviously Jesus was the was the greatest one of all time. But we have had many since then that have come down the path, and many of them which I've respected, whether it's Eastern or Western philosophy, they are out there. And so it is. It is. It is an interesting thing that these 12 women who were loved by Jesus unconditionally, told a story of letting people know that that unconditional love is what changed them forever and their life both about how they were in the world, who they were to the world, and what they gave to the world. And for those listeners out there who want to this, you want to go the Arancha book, look it up. But this is the women who loved Jesus and get a copy of this. So if there's one takeaway Donna that you want readers to remember, of the women who love Jesus, or two or three. What would you want to actually tell listeners today? Because you have groups that meet people can go to your website, which, again, I'm going to voice the website. It's Institute Christ consciousness.org, there you can learn more about Donna, the path of spiritual growth. There's one awakening to the path, the stillness, practice, growing in Jesus, consciousness, the faith, adventure. There's lots of things. There's a video series there as well. You can look at the video series. There's books and CDs and MP threes, and again, there's free offerings as well for everybody. So do go to that. Look for their events. Go there and learn more about this book. But what are the three things you'd like people to take away? You
The first thing I like to reinforce is that Jesus taught a very simple gospel, and it was this faith in the creator of all and loving service to the family of humanity. It's that simple, and it is time for us to get back to that very simple gospel of loving one another, appreciating one another and and recognizing that every person has value just because he and she is a child of a loving Creator. The second thing I'd like to emphasize is the relationship to the Divine Mother, Holy Spirit, that the presence of the divine feminine is a placeholder for us to grow in who we are. It's a loving environment. It's a safe environment. Many people don't feel safe in the world right now, and for good reason, because it is a scary place, but when you open up to the Holy Spirit, she provides an expansion in human consciousness of her presence, where you can begin to take a breath and begin To feel relaxed and begin to feel more peaceful and safe and secure. Because now what's happening with our divine mother, who is the womb of our consciousness, human thought and emotion is elevating out of the din of our planetary mind and elevating into a broader, larger context of the universe, where things are orderly, where life is organized and orderly and peaceful. And that is a huge step for people to take in their spiritual development. And then the third very important is to open up your relationship to Jesus, we have a direct relationship to him through the Spirit of truth, which he endowed to all of the world during Pentecost. And during Pentecost, there was this infusion of spiritual energy that elevated both the male and the female apostles to go out into the world and to minister the gospel message. Now we know that later, Christianity became very dogmatized, but going back to the original Gospel and opening up to a relationship with Jesus just validates a person at a core level of their being, of the right to be who they are, and to embark on the wonderful journey of growing your own soul. So those three things, I think, are the most important component that I'd like readers to take away from this book, and we're moving away from what I would say, being influenced by external spiritual influences, to being influenced by our internal spiritual wiring and the connections we have to our divine sources, and we have a right to do that. That is part of our divine birthright. And now the planetary circuits are being cleared of a lot of the morass that has kept us stuck has kept us in these bonds of spiritual enslavement, so we can rise above the past, like Byron says, a reboot, and get into the higher dimensions of reality, where we have so much better information to feed our minds with love and truth and peace and goodness. And these are some of the things that Jesus provides to us as a living source through our Spirit of Truth.
Greg Voisen
Well, that was very well put. And I think people ought to go and read the spiritual Bill of Rights at your website for humanity the way that you just put that really outline those seven spiritual rights of humanity. So for all of our listeners, go check that out. The website. It's under Resources, and it's a spiritual Bill of Rights for humanity. Proclaim Liberty to spiritual captives. By Teresa marks, very well put Well, thanks for being on inside personal growth and spending a little bit of time with our listeners speaking about your book. And I know that those who are interested in Urantia and interested in these women's spiritual the evangelists, or I should say, the core, they definitely should go pick up a copy of your book. Thank you so much, Donna, for being an inside personal growth.
Thank you so much. Greg. God bless you.
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Inside Personal Growth with Greg Voisen · Podcast 1175: How to Create Innovation: The Ultimate Guide to Proven Strategies and Business Models to Drive Innovation and Digital TransformationIn today’s fast-evolving digital landscape, businesses must stay ahead by fostering innovation. But what does true innovation look like, and how can organizations achieve it? Stefan Dieffenbacher, a leading global authority on digital transformation, tackles these questions in his book, How to Create Innovation: The Ultimate Guide to Proven Strategies and Business Models to Drive Innovation and Digital Transformation. In a recent podcast with Greg Voisen on Inside Personal Growth, Stefan shares his approach to engineering innovation to help companies succeed in a rapidly changing world.
What Is True Innovation?Innovation is more than just incremental improvements—it’s about making radical changes that reshape industries. As Stefan notes, “Innovation is radical by nature. It’s not merely transforming; it’s creating something entirely new.” Unlike companies that focus on minor product updates, true innovators invest in groundbreaking advancements that change how we interact with the world.
Creating an Innovation CultureFor any business, nurturing a culture of innovation is vital. Innovation doesn’t thrive on ping-pong tables or trendy perks alone—it’s rooted in a company’s decision-making processes, team dynamics, and leadership structure. Stefan emphasizes the need for a “culture canvas” that allows businesses to design their own innovation ecosystem. Companies like BMW and IBM have benefited immensely from this approach by enabling employees at all levels to make decisions, communicate openly, and collaborate effectively.
Discover Stefan Dieffenbacher’s philosophy on digital leadership: LinkedIn | Facebook
Balancing Innovation and StabilityOne common challenge for companies is balancing the need for disruptive innovation with maintaining stable operations. Apple’s recent ventures into autonomous technology and AI demonstrate the risks of innovation when not fully supported by technological readiness. Stefan’s approach is about building robust, lean processes that focus on identifying unmet customer needs and validating new ideas early. This approach enhances the security of innovation investments by reducing risks associated with failure.
The Power of Predictive Analytics in InnovationPredictive analytics can support innovation by helping companies anticipate customer demands and preferences. However, as Stefan points out, it’s critical to understand that prediction only works well in stable environments. In the context of innovation, focusing on unmet customer needs provides a foundation for anticipating shifts in market demands without relying solely on predictive analytics.
Key Takeaways for Innovators1. Invest Boldly: Stefan encourages companies to invest confidently in innovation and embrace best practices outlined in his book. 2. Empower Teams: Shift from top-down hierarchies to collaborative, trust-based networks to empower teams. 3. Stay Customer-Centric: Always anchor innovation on deep customer insights to create solutions that address real needs.
To dive deeper into Stefan Dieffenbacher’s groundbreaking strategies for digital transformation, visit Digital Leadership and explore resources to set your business on a path toward innovation success.
You may also refer to the transcripts below for the full transcription (not edited) of the interview.
Interview Transcipt -Not EditedEmailDownloadNew TabGreg Voisen
Welcome back to Inside personal growth for another edition of our podcast, and joining me from Zurich, Switzerland. It's a few hours time difference is Stefan Dieffenbacher and the book that we're going to be talking about is this Wiley book, How to create innovation. Good day to you, Stefan. How are you doing in Zurich, Switzerland this afternoon?
Thank you so much for having me on this wonderful Election Day here. Yeah,
Greg Voisen
it is election day here in the United States. I don't think it is in Zurich, but it is here. That's for certain. But I do thank you for that. And you know, when anyone comes on the show with ideas around innovation, and this one, how to create innovation which is really unique in itself, the title and all the work that you put into this all the years, I want to let our listeners know a little bit about you. He's a global industry thought leader in the innovation and transformation space. In his role as a digital executive, game changer and strategist. He has digital change programs for the top five firms across almost all sectors globally. That is really something you can learn more about this book by just going to and I want to make sure that I get this right, because I've got it up. It's digital leadership.com just go to digital leadership.com there. Also you can learn how to get innovation success for free. There's tools and models. This is a Wiley book, and for all of you who are out there, it is a little bit thick, but it's really filled with because this was co created with all of his associates. So the contributions come from all over and it took, I think he said five years to put this together, is that right? Seven was a five years of research. So Stefan has expertise across large scale, digital innovation and transformation programs for major firms across much industries, Key Pairs boardroom level strategic thinking and deep portfolio management expertise with the ability to execute with a deep interdisciplinarian knowledge and expertise with both strategy and execution. He strategized executed and growth hack digital ventures for both startup and corporations. He holds a master's degree and an MBA from Hensley business school in London. He's also frequently teaches at international business schools, and again, if you want to learn more, you can go to digital leadership.com there you can learn more about the book and all of the people he collaborated with to do that. So I want to thank you for taking this time to really be on the show and spend some time with us to talk about the book, and literally the resources you have at the website is as well how to create innovation emphasizes that innovation is a process that can be nurtured and developed, right? And I don't think that all business people look at it that way. Why do you believe or what are the foundational elements that must be in place for innovation to thrive? I don't care if it's at a at a smaller company or a company like my son works as an executive Adobe, because every day they're innovating something there, right? And, you know, there are similarities between the people who are smaller trying to innovate and large companies that are trying to innovate as well.
So I think over time, we managed to mature any discipline, and we managed to mature it by understanding its ingredients, by understanding its many components. And I think innovation consists out of many, many components. You can't think out of innovation, or you have to consider the foundation's culture, the structure, the organizational setup, the right processes and approaches, the right team, of course, funding. There are so many ingredients that play a role. But most importantly, I guess, we need to mature that industry. We need to mature innovation, how we approach it, how we do it, and really engineer it in the right way to ultimately increase the success rates. I think that is most critical, innovation can be engineered, and success can be engineered as in any other business discipline. And I think that's the most important message, perhaps of all,
Greg Voisen
yeah. And I think engineering innovation is a unique concept in itself. I know that a lot of companies have innovation departments, but then a lot of them don't have that. And kind of, in this digital age, which you know, that's what you approach, it's called digital leadership, innovation often feels like a buzzword. How do you differentiate true innovation from mere iteration or improvement within a company. So it's like, okay, yeah, I have an iPhone 15, and now I go to an iPhone 16. Might be what we might call an iteration. But according to Apple, when they release the 16, and I'll use them as an example. They were supposed to have aI embedded, and it was the worst release ever because the AI was not there. So I guess the question for you would be, in a company that's $3 trillion strong, making such a big mistake in the innovation cycle. What would you have to say about that?
And before, before we talk about Apple, perhaps in details. So I think innovation, by definition, actually is radical in nature. It's not an incremental improvement. It's not transformative. So it's not a step change to one part of a business model, which is the definition of a transformation, or a digital transformation. But innovation is truly radical. So it's an entirely new thing, foreign industry, for a country, for something on a large scale. Otherwise it's not truly innovative. So innovation, remember, that is radical in nature. Now, I don't know about the mishaps of Apple in that case, but basically, as we move from one iPhone generation to the next iPhone generation, most things remain the same, and some things are incrementally updated done. There are sometimes some aspects which can be radical. For example, if truly it would have game changing artificial intelligence integrated, but perhaps, and it seems like I haven't tested it myself, it seems more like it was a marketing hype to manipulate the stocks of Apple. But then I don't know, yeah,
Greg Voisen
yeah, it was a disappointment for a lot of people, and it was touted as one of the most challenging thing. They say that they have it fixed now, so we'll see if that little AI integration into the phone is was that good? Now you discuss the importance of creating a culture. You just mentioned that in when I asked you the first question was this cultural issue of innovation in the book and and, and I get that having a culture where people are engaged and committed and committed to developing and innovating is important. What are the key characteristics of an innovation culture, and how can leaders fast foster this kind of environment?
And culture is perhaps the number one critical, most critical component. Yeah, it's always the elephant in the room. And the big problem out there is we don't actually know what culture is, yeah, everybody believes, oh, it's colorful, offices, ping pong tables, sushi for lunches or massages, as we get to believe from some Silicon Valley films. But the question is, what is it really and how do I change it towards an innovation culture? And there are numerous ingredients at play, which all together form basically what we call culture. They can and basically, for the first time, we have identified those components and designed a culture canvas which strategically identifies those most important components of culture that allows you to design your own innovation culture. Now I can't take you through all of those components, but perhaps a few of them, so as we would be good, yeah. So most important perhaps is decision making. So as we are incrementally improving, and we are normally in the context of our existing firm, normally decision making is top down, so a director tells from top to bottom what is to be done in an innovation situation. So you do something profoundly new, nobody has, by definition, the best answer. Otherwise, you wouldn't be doing an innovation, probably to start with. So that one is why we regroup in in teams. We leave the silos around one table, and we take decisions together, and there is no single best person who takes decisions. So we start then communicating on eye level. There is no top down communication, and the role of leadership then changes clearly and obviously. Hiring changes because most likely if you expect people to take decisions and if they're together around one table, well you might need T shaped people there who have broad competency and deep competency at the same time. And these are some aspects and the right prerequisites that you need to have in place for an innovation culture to truly thrive. So it's truly a mindset shift and the paradigm shift. Talk about value creation, from machines to people thinking in networks. Leadership through trust, in blending work life, perhaps in leading together with your colleagues, as opposed to having a boss which already changes the wording, etc. These are some of the key aspects that are critical as you consider an innovation culture. And please be invited to download the canvas where you have all of that pointed out, including examples how to set up and define new innovation culture.
Greg Voisen
Well, you know, I'm looking while we're talking, because there's several screens open. And you know, you've been in BMW, you've been in Audi, you've been in IBM, you've been in all of these places. And if you were to give us a real world example from maybe one of these companies, bear BMW, or B and P, or something about how you and your team came in and what you did to assist those organizations in transforming their culture such that it improved that whole innovation element. What are the key takeaways from that experience that you could share with some of our listeners right now are like, Okay, if I wanted to get in touch with Stefan, and I had this big company, and I'm listening today the podcast, what could he really do for me?
I mean, perhaps one general culture, perhaps one general example about innovation to start with that we can all relate to is a supermarket experience, yeah? And we all in supermarkets, probably every week, and we are shopping for, let's say, wine bottles. Yeah, we are going to find a nice wine bottle for tonight. And wines are normally structured by by pricing, yeah, and by countries, and that leaves us a choice most of us don't know. So you have a Chateau Lafite in front of you from 2018 and you have Garry Bardy, say, from 2016 and you serve spaghetti with clams. And now, yeah, which bottle Do you buy? And statistically, it's only 2% of the population who are wine converses. So really know the shit about wine into able to select among the 1000s of bottles there are the perfectly right one, because they know it, and that is the struggle people are perceiving there. And so what we did is we thought about, how can we change that wine purchasing experience. So we started with a fresh understanding of the customer. What are they wanting to achieve, and what they want to achieve is, hey, we serve spaghetti with clamps tonight. I need a fitting wine bottle, and that is what we did. So we rearranged all wines, not by price, not by countries, but by wines to match your cooking style by what you're going to have to eat, and send specific or special wines for weddings or birthdays or whatsoever. That change was implemented in one of the biggest supermarket change both in the stores as well as E commerce, and it immediately led to a 21% uplift in wine bottle sales overnight, which was a billion dollar revenue gross opportunity by just rearranging how we sell wine bottles in a supermarket, both online and offline. What an example.
Greg Voisen
That's a I love that example. Thank you for that. When I do buy wine, I usually buy it at Costco, right? And Costco is the biggest seller of wines. Most people don't understand that. I don't know if there's even Costco in Switzerland or not, but here in the United States, they sell I don't know if it is a billion dollar sort of line. It's a lot of wine, right? So that was a great example, by the way, of how you reorganized it. So your book covers various methodologies for fostering more innovation. Which methodologies do you find most effective, and how can organizations tailor these methods to fit their unique needs? So if you could get because this book is the how to create innovation book, and for most people, the pictures, the graphs, the charts, everything that's in here is a way to help you get to methodologies for fostering innovation,
absolutely. So this book is perhaps the first book that covers innovation end to end. So we have covered all stages in the process and across all disciplines. And the thing is, now Greg asked me the difficult question of which is the most important one? And actually, I'm not sure I have an answer, yeah. It's like asking the architect which process or which part of the building is most important, the toilet, where you cook, the kitchen, a good bed, lighting, perhaps, yeah. And I'm like, Oh, I don't know for innovation myself, so I think it's all of them. Ultimately, you leave some out. You don't miss. You miss to understand customer needs. It's probably very bad. Well, you miss the business case. It's probably very bad. You miss building the right value proposition. You missed it broadly as well. You missed the financials. Oh, that's not good. And so perhaps I have a different message. I think in the past, we have been trying to be the very best individual product, the best customer experience, the best financial plan, the best whatsoever. And actually, I think it's wrong. I think to have a mediocre experience is good enough to have a mediocre brand, to have a mediocre business plan, to have a mediocre value proposition, to have a medium, mediocre business model. All that is good enough. The most important thing, perhaps, is integrating all of those different aspects. This is where teams and organizations fundamentally struggle with. This is where they fail, because the handover points, because between all those different processes and parts and methodologies normally are missing. So I think let's don't strive for excellence in one part or one process or one methodology. Let's rather work on integrating those. This is where we struggle today.
Greg Voisen
Yeah, most definitely. And you know, I know that during the course of you and I getting to know each other over the last couple of months, I introduced you to Greg galley at solve next, and I recognize that, you know, they're all about innovation as you are, and your team and what you do. And I've always been deeply engaged in this area. Everybody from you know you worked while we're looking at David sibitz, who does this work with the graphic facilitation and so on and and so you talk about methodologies for fostering innovation. And it's not a one size fits all solution, is what you just said. It's like, hey, it can't be. How should companies approach the process of identifying a right innovation strategy for let's say, and let's pick an industry you just use the grocery industry. I'm going to use the technology industry, let's say software. How would they pick the right innovation strategy for their specific market or industry?
So I mean in general, what we have tried to define is the most likely approach that works in most situations for most companies, in that settings, and that works most of the time. Yeah, you have to tailor, however, the details. Obviously, if you have a supermarket problem and need to rearrange the structure or presentation of your materials or your offerings, it's a different type of problem, then you do deep technology research around AI, yeah, that is, of course, a very different proposition, a different challenge. One is technology focused, one is customer focused, etc, and so on. So while the fundamental process works in most industries and settings, you have to adjust for the specifics of your industry, there is no common recipe here. I think it takes real human intelligence and human human intelligence, AI is not yet helping us here, and that it takes a lot of training time to become good at it. So having a track record in an industry is actually beneficial. So, you know, where are the levers and what you should pay attention to? You know,
Greg Voisen
I think it was interesting. I was speaking with somebody the other day. We were did an interview and discussing it, and they were saying that, that when you go innovate something new, and we're now talking about the role of failure. They they run out forward with something new, and they funded the money to get to the forward motion. What they didn't realize is that maybe there was going to be a failure at the end of that, and they had to have the funds to come back and redo it right? So her, her theory was, hey, it's one thing to be thinking about having funds to innovate something new, but do you have enough funds if that fails? Okay, and so, how do companies create a safe space for experimentation and failure without risking significant losses. And I would say this is true. Not everything you put out there is a success. It's a learning lesson, and it's iterative in nature, right? Just by the mere fact that this is a new innovation, it's iterative. We don't know if it's going to be accepted or not. We've seen it happen with software. We've seen it happen with a lot of things.
Yeah. And so if you look today, nine out of 10 innovation, I mean true, radical innovation initiatives flow, regardless if you are in the startup space or in the corporate space, nine out of 10 flock. That is a catastrophic ratio. I think if you look back 10 years ago that we had the lean startup movement. So we try it. That was inspired from Toyota, the lean production. Way we do it lean now, so we do it extremely fast. That is where the good MVP then came from. Let's build a minimum viable product. And all of those processes are important, and the rate of failure, sorry, the costs of failure drastically reduced by embedding fundamentally lean approaches. So that movement made sense, but the fundamental problem is still the same. Our success ratio has not improved over the last decade until nine out of 10 ideas and initiatives ultimately fraught, and so I would actually advocate for the opposite. Let's do our approach seriously. Let's validate as early as possible, and let's focus on understanding important but unmet customer needs as a basis for innovation, yeah, such as where we are rearranged bottles of wine in a supermarket presentation. Let's leverage differentiating capabilities so we truly build an unfair advantage. Let's work with experienced professional who have a track record as entrepreneurs. These are things you can do, right? Yeah, but even if you do a lot of things well, you will still fail occasionally. So you cannot launch a single innovation project if you're serious, you have to always think in terms of a portfolio. But basically, if you take those lessons from the book seriously, you should be able to double and triple your innovation success rate. Having one in three fail or one in three succeed is entirely an option if you follow the processes, if you validate throughout. The ultimate measure is we want to increase the investment security. We don't want to be the faster. That's not a measure I care about. We want to have. We want to be the guys which offer the greatest investment security. We want to see successes. And we do that by validating early and by validating what needs to be validated as soon as possible. I
Greg Voisen
don't know how much in this process, but it is a kind of an off the wall question for you. But you know, everybody today is trying to use some level of predictive analytics to kind of figure out what's going to hit them, right? So Rita McGrath talks about connecting the dots, and, you know, being able to see into the future the best we can, right? And, and I'm would ask you this question, what advice would you have for companies who are looking at all these factors of innovating something to really get the best data that they possibly could, to have some predictive analytics of the outcome for demand, for whatever it's creating. To be able to have more information that would validate that what they're going to put out into the market would be great, more greatly accepted and utilized, right? And that kind of goes across industries that's not just, you know, software, that's the wine industry, that's any industry, because we are attempting to change something that will then be adopted and accepted by a consumer, in the end, in many cases. Yeah,
so Predictive analytics is a concept you normally apply, originally apply in mechanical engineering, so you have a machine and you see how it is running and what is going to happen next as it continues to run and when it breaks potentially. And here we have a stable context. So here, predictive analytics work extremely well, and predictive data works also rather well when you have a stable context. That's why chatgpt actually works. Yeah, can predict the context. It knows the context, it has all the knowledge in the world, and therefore it can predict the next word. That is the fundamental technology behind chatgpt and by works. Now, when we are innovating, we are in by definition, at least if we take the word seriously, we are doing something radical. If we are in a radically new market, and we are, for the first time, doing something new. It's very difficult to predict why you don't have the data. By definition, otherwise you wouldn't be innovated. Yeah, that is what is making prediction and predictive data so difficult, and why would shy away from it? Now you may be able to have some data,
Greg Voisen
maybe that's the difference between iterative, meaning the next iteration that I'm trying to predict that the iPhone will be accepted. And I think many of the inventions that I see in technology are iterative in nature. In other words, there's been this constant, little bit of better. Hey, it's like somebody says, well, what's the roadmap for that software? And you say, well, all of our customers said we need to put in this, this, this and this, right? And so you obviously all the programmers are looking at they're going, Okay, well, we have a demand for 16 new things, but our roadmap says we're only going to put in five, right? So those are kind of really iterations, because it's the next version of the software, right? Multiple
step. And here, as you have already an iPhone, what feature is going to make it more attractive? While that is something you can test, you have the basic basic data for that. So here it works otherwise, what I would truly encourage you to do is gain an understanding of the important but unmet customer needs. If, in case, you're truly working on an innovation, you don't have the data and the fundamental unmet needs have not or normally are not changing. So to make one example, so 100 years ago, we needed to go to our offices, perhaps use the train, yeah. And we wanted to be entertained while we travel. So 100 years ago, that fundamental customer need was fulfilled by me purchasing a newspaper and reading out on the train. Yeah. That is how it worked. 100 years ago, the need is today still the same. We still travel to our job with a car, potentially, or with a train and on the train, or we read the iPhone, yeah, still with us on it, or something, yeah. So it's just the mechanism has changed. The fundamental customer need has not changed. So what you want to analyze, in case you don't have the data, is you want to identify important but unmet customer needs, or at least partially only met unmet customer needs. And these you can analyze with statistical stability, with statistical predictability, and that is a good basis for innovation, which gives you certainty that is the next best thing you can resort to. In case you have more than a fundamental you have a you have a more fundamental change ahead. What
Greg Voisen
are some of the things that you would say are are truly, truly innovative that you've seen come out in the last year. Because, you know, as I see it sitting here right now, I'm thinking as you're talking right like, okay, have I seen anything fundamentally which has been revolutionary in nature? Meaning, like, whoa. It really made a change. I see all kinds of people doing products. Obviously, we've seen now so many iterations of the of the electric car, right? Everything from Tesla to you name it, everybody's in the electric car space. But fundamentally, there hasn't been much significant change in in the range the battery, the ability to get better range, and so on and so forth. So driving, man, yeah, well, yeah, there, there is the car in Google. I was just in San Francisco last week. And what if it's a it's all self driving. They're actually Jaguars that are, that's what they they put on them. They're pretty fascinating to do that. So you're saying that that's one of the most radical things maybe you've seen is this autonomous, self driving taxicab. What's it called? It starts with a W, I can't think of it,
right, which Hilo must just try to launch and which was also a fake,
Greg Voisen
yeah, yep, exactly. So have you noticed anything from your side? Because you see so much more than I do, that you would say, Oh, wow. This is really, really true and innovation which is going to revolutionize the world.
Well, arguably, we have seen the rise of artificial intelligence was the first prominent product which has taken the world by storm in the last 18 months. Yeah, and that is going to revolutionize the world. I think everybody is starting to use it now, and it even replaces Google search. So this is as fundamentally is about to fundamentally change the world. We have also seen what I found like totally fascinating rockets that can be reused, that can land again. That was fascinating. However, in total, I'm a little bit critical, but I'm seeing less innovation than I think there should be out there. Companies are fundamentally not investing heavily in innovation. It's a huge deception across industries. They are just invent, investing 1% very roughly, of their revenues and innovation. And the outcomes we are seeing are much smaller than what you could be thinking, yeah, that is very unfortunate. And, I mean, we still don't have everything we learned from Star Trek in the last decade. So
Greg Voisen
I you know one that I'm thinking of while you're speaking, actually, and I just saw a special on it was the company in Denmark, the drug company, that came out with all the weight loss products, we go, V is one of them. And the other one is, I can't remember the name of it, but they were actually saying that this company, Novo Vardis, is that name of it? Yeah, and Denmark that what's happened is the this one company has added three times the GNP to the whole country. So in the amount of money that this company is making now, it's like a 1.5 trillion right now and continuing to grow. So what's happening in Denmark is kind of this revolutionary jobs housing prices have been able to keep down all of this kind of stuff is going on. And it was fascinating to see how that company evolved in the innovation. It was one woman who didn't want money for it, who actually innovated it in the lab by looking at the these particular cells and how they work. But I would say that that's pretty revolutionary, when you think about how much money is being spent on a weight loss drug, right? So exactly,
and perhaps, and it's fascinating. I think the company is called Novozymes. But what I think is fascinating is what is perhaps a shock, is why does something like that get talked over us that much. I mean, are we all too fat? The most exciting thing that could happen to us? And it seems like, and it's little bit of a deception. I mean, we're still not flying around or can beam us around the earth and have get nutritions. I mean, there are so many things which possibly should be happening and which which we have seen in our science fiction books when we were kids. Yeah, we are still far away from and now we are talking the most important thing, Greg and I managed to discuss last thing that happened in Myanmar, like, seriously.
Greg Voisen
Well, what I'm waiting for is the whole Star Trek, when you can beam me up and beam me down. So when you get that one figured out, and I can actually end up in Switzerland to interview you, you at your house, and then I can beam myself back. I'm I'm on for that one. But the key here was leadership. You know, now I cite that drug company because the the leadership was really an important factor. Also, the company is 100 and something years old, so from the founders down, how they really think about what they do with that money that they bring in, leadership is often cited as a critical factor, as you say, driving innovation. What leadership qualities do you think are most essential for fostering this innovative organization. Now, I listened to the CEO of that drug company talk, and he is the leader, and in most cases he'd be wake making way more than 10 million but they capped his salary at 10 million in Denmark because there's a correlation, right? And it was fascinating, what the company the freedom that they gave the employees and individuals to actually be able to innovate, their autonomy, to work on things, bring things to the forefront. I would say that whole autonomy element was the first thing that impressed me. You have some insights on that, because you work with leaders all the time.
So and it's absolutely the right kind of observation. So I mean, if we look back and go back in history, we go to the medieval ages, perhaps we had super steep hierarchies. That's still how our armies function. Yeah, you have the boss sitting at the top, and he ordains to the rest. And what happened over the last decades is that the hierarchies went flatter and they went flatter again to enable more people. But fundamentally, that principle, that we're still in the pyramid principle somebody at the top dictates just less middle management, perhaps around. But there's still the pyramid principle, and then innovative organizations, perhaps the pyramid then tilts and is perhaps then reversed. The leader is suddenly at the bottom to support those at the top. Or we actually don't have a leader anymore, and we arrive at a circular structure, organization structure where decisions are made together by colleagues who trust in each other, where the communication paths are much shorter, etc. So the entire role of leadership has changed from one who knows it all and to therefore could ordain which works in a known context, to, yes, the insight that we are indeed in a new we need new ways of doing. Therefore the leader me can't know it all. Therefore I trust in the team around me. I enable it, and I'm either at the bottom or I'm perhaps not present anymore, and we are making decisions together. So the leader is or the leadership of a large organization. Perhaps they offer the freedom and they offer fundamental capabilities to the teams, but the teams are self enabled can do what they want. I mean, with, of course, guidance, perhaps that they should be going in certain directions and leverage certain elements, but fundamentally, we lead by trust. We go away from line management to innovation and to project management. We think in networks and not in silos anymore. We don't have a top down structure, but a value creation structure, and we have, perhaps, other mechanisms of organizing ourselves that are no more bureaucratic in nature. So we think about sociocracy or holacracy, or networked organization, things like that. Now this is, I guess, the fundamental aspect that have changed.
Greg Voisen
Yeah, holacracy definitely is a term that's being used more and more. It hasn't been for some time. I like that concept that you you brought up, and for all my listeners, definitely go back in my podcast. I actually did two podcasts on people that wrote books just on holacracy. Fascinating concept, but So in your opinion, leading more to the future trends and the challenges and changes. How should companies balance the need for disruptive innovation with the necessity to maintain stability in their core business operations? So okay, so here's just, let's use apple. All right, AI comes out. They come up with the phone 16. Their core operations is obviously the sales of computers and this, and their software side of things, and their iTunes and all the rest of the things, the markets that they've captured. But in essence, that's their core business. That's always been their core business. Now, fundamentally, this last year, we saw them come out with the with the 3d glasses, right? The they came out with that a while ago. They actually Google came out the glasses. But I'm talking about the the whole thing that you could go into the alternate worlds in right? I don't own a pair, but it has been an area, and they've said that actually, that $3,000 innovation that they've put tons of money into has really not paid off. There hasn't been that big of acceptance of that. And so their core business operations, while maintaining it, they needed to come up with disruptive innovation. Would you consider something like that disruptive? Or just, hey, it was another player with another product.
Well, it's basically an entirely new product category that suddenly we could wear intelligent glasses and not carry around laptops and plus, with the vision capabilities that it can immersively see the environment, enrich your direct eye view, are of course, game changing technology. So yes, this is, of course, disruptive. It's an entire newly new product category which could potentially change the world. Is the world ready? Apparently not yet. Is the technology ready? Apparently not yet either. And Apple isn't the only company who is struggling with that. Yeah. I mean, Facebook has made an even bigger bet on that technology, and they're equally struggling. I think what you can learn from that is the biggest fad that I've seen in recent years is, let's establish a culture of innovation everywhere. Yeah, this is what many CEOs postulated. And I think this is not all about it, while on the opposite, if you look at Apple, they have massive manufacturing going on in Asia. These are not guys who do innovation. They manufacture, and that is hundreds of 1000s of jobs which are focused on manufacturing. Apple has offices around the world. These are about sales. They're not about innovation, either. So I would estimate that 95% of Apple's organization is clearly not about innovation. They're either about manufacturing or sales. And a few guys at the lonely headquarter in Cupertino and Silicon Valley. They are about innovation. They take it seriously to develop the next big thing. So
Greg Voisen
this is, well, obviously I don't have their budget, but I would say, out of the budget they have, they must have a pretty good sum of money allocated to innovation to keep pace. But I do find certain companies fall short, right? And the younger, more nimble companies coming up actually come up with, usually the innovations that we see huge differences in the innovations. It isn't always these big, behemoth companies that's where they have a challenge getting dragged down, which is keeping their current operations going. Like you said, marketing and sales is 95% of what they do. So, you know, moving forward, if somebody's out there listening to this right now, as a CEO of a company, recognizes they're a little light on the side of innovation, meaning light in the amount of investment, the amount of people, and they'd like to move forward. What is one piece of advice that you would give to the leaders who are just beginning the journey toward creating this innovative organization?
So I guess first of all, I mean, innovation can be controlled. It can be engineered, as we said initially, and I think this is what we have laid out with that book. So I would start, please go ahead, please read the book. Please educate yourself about those best and leading practices. They are defined leverage those, as opposed to running the era of applying your usual thinking and your usual procedures to innovation. That's not how it works. We have it figured out. It's defined out there. Go and leverage those best practices, get the right kind of teams in place and hit the ground running. Never shy away from it, but be bold, make your moves, and most organizations don't dare to go ahead. And I think this is why, in most industries, there is massive potential out there, because so little money, in the end, is invested in innovation. So if you want to be the innovation leader, most organizations have room for such an organization, so go out, be bold, leverage the processes, then the best practices, and you will have good chances of succeeding.
Greg Voisen
I think one of the things is you can't be afraid, because you never know what the investment will return. And if there is trepidation or fear on your part, I think you have to look at it as a way for an advancement. You know, I was speaking with somebody the other day, and I'll just use this as a crazy story, but there was a guy with the name of Anderson and Anderson carpet mills, and a really small thing, you know, when people lay carpet. This is a kind of a little weird example, but it's a good example. It the old carpet came coming out, never got recycled. It always went into a landfill. And so here in the United States, this guy revolutionized the industry. He said every fiber that comes out of the old carpet is going to be ground up and reused in the new carpet that my mill makes. And he revolutionized kind of the carpet business that way by actually recite just taking you think, when you Oh, you go, that's revolutionary. Well, it was kind of because he had to create all the machines and the technology to take all the fibers and pull it out and then circulate it so that it didn't end up in some landfill somewhere. And I use that example is because so many people don't even look at the obvious, right? And the obvious would be, what can we do to better help the environment around us? Okay? What can we do to better recycle these things to make sure that it's they call it Cradle to Cradle, right in your business, right Cradle to Cradle, and what I see happening is the companies that can innovate around Cradle to Cradle, the demand from the consumers out there is big. It's very big. Would you agree or not?
I fully agree. It's clearly the way this world needs to develop. Our current ways of living are not sustainable, and more sustainable, it is a big business growth imperative. It's the big story that is currently written and that will be written over the next two or three decades, and industry leaders out there, I mean, organizations who are innovating in that space will have ample opportunities to capture market itself. They have political support. There is support from the customers out there. That's one of the industries I would definitely bet on. Currently,
Greg Voisen
I would agree with you on that, and it's the same thing when you recycle a cell phone or a computer, or you go to apple and turn it in. None of us really know Stefan where it goes, right? We we know it ends up in Asia someplace, and they've got child labor pulling out pieces and parts of these phones, whether it's Android or I would assume maybe Apple has a better control of that. But I would say any of this, when you say, Hey, I'm just going to go get a new phone. Really, really think twice. Do you need a new phone? That's what I would say, if the one currently now is working. You know, maybe you don't need it, because a lot of it is just marketing hype. And I know I'm going to get a lot of pushback from people that are maybe listening to this show, but I would say be a little bit more cautious before you do things like that, because it's, it's very harmful to the environment. I don't know how many billions of phones get recycled each year, but it's a lot great. Yeah,
I think give it. I mean, we live in a very consumerist society. Think perhaps little bit more about what is truly making a difference in your life, like what is truly making you happier? Is the next iPhone making you happier, or is it something else? Because if we have everything, yeah, perhaps in the end, we have nothing, and perhaps we need to focus more on what is truly making a difference for us and for the world now and not have the next upgrade of everything in our house and gadgets.
Greg Voisen
I love your philosophy, my friend, I want to thank you for being on inside personal growth and sharing your wisdom and insight about this new book, How to create innovation. Go to digital leadership.com there. There's lots of free downloads for all of my listeners. Truly get involved with this. I mean, dig deep into this. If you got a company, buy one of these books for everybody in your innovation department and have meetings around it. Truly dig into the content. And you can also reach out to Stefan too, through the website and all of the people, the network of people that he's really developed. I mean, I don't know. Was there 60 other authors involved with this? Was it 60
call team of 60 people in the community, of 300 giving feedback now? So a massive
Greg Voisen
project that he undertook. Kudos to you for getting it accomplished, and also kudos to Wiley for actually wanting to actually take this book on and do it, because it was a big project. Thank you so much. Namaste to you. Thank you for everything. Thanks for being on inside personal growth.
Thank you so much. Have a good evening.
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Inside Personal Growth with Greg Voisen · Podcast 1174: Safe Zone: Cultivating Engagement One Leader at a Time with Dr Maria Silva-PalaciosIn the latest episode of Inside Personal Growth, Greg Voisen sits down with Dr. Maria Silva-Palacios, the accomplished author of Safe Zone: Cultivating Engagement One Leader at a Time, to explore her journey of transforming safety culture within high-stress industries. With a background in kinesiology, a doctorate in organizational change, and over 20 years in leadership roles, Dr. Silva-Palacios is a true cultural change agent dedicated to fostering safety and engagement in the workplace.A Career in Safety and Health
Dr. Silva-Palacios’s career began at Southern California Edison, where she saw firsthand how minor changes in injury prevention could create major improvements in employee well-being. Her work included implementing injury prevention programs that reduced common workplace injuries among linemen, particularly strains and sprains. Through these efforts, Dr. Silva-Palacios not only improved safety but also contributed to a more engaged and resilient workforce.
The Power of Emotional Safety
Dr. Silva-Palacios emphasizes the importance of emotional safety, particularly in high-stress environments like utility companies. Her approach focuses on self-awareness, self-management, and authentic leadership. She encourages leaders to operate from a place of integrity, empathy, and compassion, creating a culture of trust. By fostering a supportive environment, leaders can inspire employees to feel valued and safe.
Addressing Corporate Hypocrisy
One of the biggest challenges she identifies is “corporate hypocrisy”—where leaders say safety is a priority but fail to follow through. According to Dr. Silva-Palacios, leaders need to “walk the talk” and align their actions with their words. This integrity builds trust and prevents the erosion of employee engagement.
Navigating Production Pressure
In high-pressure industries, safety often takes a back seat to productivity. Dr. Silva-Palacios has seen how production pressures lead to unsafe shortcuts, resulting in serious injuries or even fatalities. She advocates for leaders who prioritize safety over expediency, despite the temptation to cut corners.
Using Authentic Leadership to Build Trust
Dr. Silva-Palacios encourages leaders to adopt Authentic Leadership Theory, which helps cultivate trust and respect. When leaders demonstrate authenticity and integrity, they build a culture where employees feel secure, valued, and more motivated to follow safety protocols.
For more insights from Dr. Silva-Palacios, visit her on LinkedIn or Facebook, and don’t forget to grab a copy of her book, Safe Zone, on Amazon.
You may also refer to the transcripts below for the full transcription (not edited) of the interview.
Interview Transcipt -Not EditedEmailDownloadNew TabWelcome back to Inside personal growth. This is Greg Voisen, the host of inside personal growth, and joining us today. You're in the Los Angeles area, about where and exactly are you? Maria.
I am in Lakewood, which is just a hop skip and a jump from Long Beach, California. Okay,
so she's in Lakewood. The book is called Safe John zone. Safe Zone cultivating engagement, one leader at a time. And it's Dr Maria Silva. And I want to pronounce your last name, hyphenated last name. How do you say it? Alaska velascos, so, Dr Maria Silva, palascos, Alaska. Velasquez, you can go to Amazon to get this book. We'll put a link to Amazon as well. It is a hardback book which is really cool. And look at it. It's not a big read for all of you out there looking you can read this fast and you can learn a lot. So Maria, I'm going to let the listeners know a little bit about you is Dr Maria Silva plaskos. She served in many leadership roles in the health, fitness and safety industry for more than 20 years, with a doctorate degree in organizational change and leadership and a Masters of Science in leadership and management. She is a cultural change agent dedicated to fostering trusting relationships with those she encounters as a speaker, presenter and moderator of multiple safety and health women's empowerment conferences, and she shares her passion for safety, health and fitness with the goal of transforming and empowering the lives of people in her community and beyond. Well, Sylvia, you have an interesting background. We did a pre interview for this show, and kind of the way you came about this was doing safety for the electrical companies, right? That's what I remember. It was Southern California, Edison, is that correct? Correct, right? And so you were inside, as they say, the bowels of the ship, doing this work for a long time. Tell us a little bit about how you got there and what drove you to want to actually help organizations become, actually watch for safety, because I think safety is a big issue, but really physical health, mental health, and fostering this emotional well being, kind of this culture inside these organizations, because that's What you become is a cultural change agent to embrace safety and health, and you saved Southern California Edison a lot of money by doing this, right, right, right, yeah. So tell us a little bit about that and a little bit about your experiences there.
Well, I've had a just under 21 year career with Southern California, Edison and I had my my undergrad is in kinesiology, and I was always in the fitness industry. And so I, when I began my career with the company, I immediately began a career in injury prevention with a focus on reducing strains and sprains. They were the number one injury that our alignment, specifically, we're suffering for many, many years. So I was very involved in in, you know, creating, collaborating, implementing, facilitating injury prevention programs designed to mitigate those and and I was in the health and wellness realm when in at Edison. And then there was an opportunity for me to step into a role of a safety, safety professional. And, you know, it was just a perfect segue from being a health and fitness, you know, professional, and now being able to bring those attributes and my experience into the safety realm, because I really believe that they were missing that component in safety. The department was called safety and environmental health. And I thought, well, they're missing the health. They have the safety, they have the environmental but they didn't have the health. And I thought I would be a great fit. And it worked out. It was, it was a wonderful career. Well,
you know, cultivating engagement too at the same time. I mean, I think that, you know when you look at it, you are the change agent. You're the change agent for organizations embracing it and in safe, known, safe zone, you emphasize the importance of self awareness, self management and authentic leadership. How do you guide leaders? Now, these are the people that are front line for Southern California, Edison and other companies you work for to develop these qualities in, really, in a lot of these cases, pretty high stress work environments, because, you know, I know all of us just take for granted that, hey, our electric turns on and that's great and when we get it. But the reality is, it isn't just the outages, it's the amount of customers they're serving. When you look at Southern California Edison, it's millions of customers that are dependent upon that network. How did that work out for you? Working with those leaders to embrace this?
Well, you know, with Southern California Edison, as as much as similar to other utilities, is a very high stress, you know, environment. And you just said it, we've got to, they have to put the lights on. And so it is, in general, just a very high stress environment. And so my goal, also, as the new in terms of physical safety, was to also include the emotional safety. So my if the leader, if a leader, for example, was already operating from a place of self awareness and self regulation, which is part of emotional intelligence, I would just encourage them to go back to their basics and meaning. Ask themselves, you know, what are the values from which I'm operating? Is it integrity? Is it empathy? Is it compassion? Is it building a culture of trust? And so I would make sure that I brought them back to the basics, because we cannot go wrong when we utilize our values as our commitment right, and this is the foundation that helps us weather those storms of high stress, work environment,
yeah, if you embrace that and then so it's always a cultural change program, right? In other words, a lot of times you come in an organization and they're looking for someone like yourself to have some as they say, you know an effect on the delta right? Where is that? How do I actually do this? And your experiences with this particular second sector, and you've gotten some unique insights into what you call the rules and tools culture. How can leaders balance what you said in the book, strict compliance with creating a more supportive, safety, driven environment. So this might be for all our listeners out there where you're dealing with something like this. Maria is the quote, unquote guru and expert here, and this isn't the easiest thing in the world to do
it when we really boils down to, I know it sounds simple in theory, but it really does boil down to we are leading human beings. We're not leading equipment and tools, and so we must trust as leaders, that each person on our workforce wakes up every morning and has a desire, a genuine desire, to do a great job. And not all, not only do a great job, but also they want to keep themselves safe. They want to keep their co workers safe. And so as a leader, we have to remember to practice that compassion, that trust, that empathy, understanding, and that these components, these factors, will create a supportive environment.
Yeah, and, you know, it's interesting, because I was speaking with a friend of the family, and the gentleman This relates right to your industry is works on, basically the high wires, the electrical wires, and the management of the company. And here's where they really they always wanted him to move to a supervisor. And so here's where they were putting a bunch of pressure. So they got him to move to supervisory from what he was doing, and he hated it, and he actually had to quit because his job was gone. Then, right? And you think about the stress, and so now they're offering him a job back. And I know this is kind of an offbeat story, but they're saying, Okay, we'll have you back now, but now you're going to go down and pay right, because you were in a supervisory position before that, you ate it. Now you're down in pain. And that brings me to this. You call it corporate hypocrisy. They can enroll a road employee engagement. There's a great example of eroding employee engagement with what actually happened with this gentleman. Can you share an example of of this and explain how leaders can avoid the pitfalls of that hypocrisy?
Yes, so corporate hypocrisy is definitely something that I have witnessed and experienced in my career, and it happens when a leader leaders words and actions. They're not congruent, right? And so there's no, you know, walking the talk, and just as there's no harmony between their words and actions. And so the example that I have is that a leader espouses, you're number one. Safety is number one, yet their behavior is exactly the opposite, and it demonstrates the opposite, and they show with their behavior that it's okay to bend the rules just this one time or two times, because productivity pressures, performance pressures, emergent work, which is very you know, it's a common occurrence in the utility industry. And so to avoid this, I always encourage and leaders to be relentlessly committed to self discipline and to operate from a place of integrity. And that's how they're going to weather those storms of, you know, feeling that they need to cut corners.
Yeah. Now your next question here is, I'm going to use a visual for our audience so they can see it. It's called the cross arms discuss the you know, because, look, there's been a lot of times when whether it's a landscaping maintenance company or it's any kind of business where you're using more people that are manual labor, right? They're doing tasks that are out in the field, and it wouldn't matter if they were Caucasian or Hispanic, or any other nationality. The the cross arms is a really good indication, because all nationalities cross use the same language, like they're standing there in the group, right, and you're talking to them, and the arms are crossed, which means they're not very open. So their attitudes towards a safety program is like, here's this woman again, talking about all this crap. We don't want to we know what to do. Why do we want to talk to her? How do you overcome the resilience and build trust, you know, with a skeptical workforce like that, and believe me, you know, here's you're a woman, and you're working in a male dominated like environment. Let's face it, 90% of the people you probably work with in the field were male. So, okay,
yes, yes. And I remember Greg that I also, not only was the only woman for a long time in my, you know, direct group of safety professionals, but I was also, I was what's called the non traditional so I never climbed poles and climbed towers. I never did the work. So I came in with a lot of barriers, you know, that I had to a lot of challenges, you know, that were faced. And so that gave the the gentleman, the line, guys, the permission, look at me and say, you really don't know what you're talking about, right, right? So I definitely experienced that. And you know, 70% about 70% of our body, of our communication is, you know, non verbal, right? And so this really meant a lot, plus the sunglasses, you know, in the back of the room. So I experienced that all the time. And so what I would go back to, and this is what I relied on, and this is what I believe was the core of my success, in really being a change agent in the organizations that I supported, is that it went back to, I'm dealing with human being dealing with human beings that want to be feel valued, they want to be respected, they want to be seen, they want to be heard. And I had to press that they really were there to do a great job in DC, and I was there to take care of them and to make sure that they were following protocol, right? Because it's important. It was important, obviously, but more so than that, it was, it was getting to know them as a human being, and that just really opened the doors for me. That opened the doors for me when they really know that, saw that I was genuine, and to hear the number one guy who was always in the back of her room with the sunglasses on
and the helmet, he would say, and when he said to
me, Hey, we know you have integrity. You we know that you care about us. That made my day.
Well, you know, in, you know, it's interesting, because the differences in the sexes is so big, especially in that and there's a hierarchy almost in machoness too. You know about how people have climbed the ladder within the organization? Who is it that they in this hierarchy is going to actually help and serve them right. They get that. They understand it a lot. So can you share your perspective on production pressure and its impact on employee safety and how leaders can manage this tension effectively? Now, for anybody out there owns a company that you work in the area where you have women and or men in the field who are out using equipment to actually service anything. I don't care what it is cable or it's electrical, or it's people that are coming into anyone's home to actually service something, or electricians or plumbers. It all applies. This is the industry where this applies. So this production pressure, especially in an industry, I'm going to just use an example where hundreds of calls are coming in saying, hey, I need help. My plumbing is broken, right? And you can imagine, okay, I'm going to dispatch somebody over to your house and we'll give you an estimate, right? And so the client has to put a trust. They've got to agree. They got to pay the bill. They got to do whatever. But this production pressure is really real in that industry. It's like, hey, we send you out. You're going to do a free estimate, but we want you to bring home the bacon, right? So you make sure you sell Maria or Greg, whatever, unplug their toilet, fix their sink, do their whatever, but you get what I'm talking about, right, right? Absolutely,
absolutely. And you said it, you know, production pressures are real, and my experience is that it's real, and it happened often in terms of some people just choosing to take shortcuts, you know, and the impact was profound. You know, people, people died on their job, or if they didn't die, some suffered life's altering, accidents. And you know, and I, and I'm very cognizant and respect the importance of compliance based behavior, especially in an environment you know, as a utility industry, because of that reason, because people can die, it can be fatal. How
did you work with OSHA on all this? Because, I
mean, the regulatory entities that you know our but
you were front line. You were front line with OSHA, right?
Oh, yes. I was not only safety, professional supporting office personnel. I was in the field. Yeah, the telecommunications linemen were my group, and they were out there. And I, you know, and I, and I did understand that, and I understood the temptation for some leaders to succumb to those pressures of you know, and bypass safety and and again, you know, I always would encourage, you know, be a leader that walks the walk, that's the talk and the role model the behavior that you want to see. And you know, practice that self discipline about relentless self discipline to do the right thing despite the pressures.
Well, it's good that you were overseeing these individuals, because, you know, it's so easy to want to take the shortcut and potentially have something happen that's that could be devastating. And I know how easy that is, because the time pressure is on them. It's like, Hey, I've only got so much time to get this done, or they've only allocated this or this or that. Although many people who are driving by in their cars looking at utility workers are probably saying, holy, crap. How come this takes so long for this bureaucratic organization to fix this pole or this line, or whatever it is, they see it a little bit differently. Now, you know, in safe zone, you often reflect on the Know thyself principle of Bill George. Now, for those who don't know Bill George, he's the founder of medtronics. He's written plenty of books. I hope it's the same one. I would assume that it is, and he's a phenomenal guy. I have three or four of his books back here. How does understanding personal and team dynamics really affect leaders ability to implement what you call lasting safety changes
if a leader has a key sense of self. As a leader understands each team members. You know, unique differences, so the team dynamics. You know when a leader practices what they preach. You know by example, you know all of these factors will help build and sustain a culture of trust, and then their employees and those lasting safety changes, you know, programs, processes and processes and protocols they'll follow, they'll follow. It's really starting from that emotional safety place, and then there's a ripple effect, and those lasting safety changes, they will be lasting. They'll be sustainable.
It is a you make an important point is that really to not only develop a new process, but then to sustain it and make it be lasting, it takes a lot of work. One and two, I think you have to be patient in the process. It's not something you can expect the light bulb to turn on immediately. When you pull the switch. It's like it takes some time to, I want to, say, coax people to want to do that and know what the reward is for it. And I'm sure there were all kinds of rewards and things you guys used when people were practicing high safety or had safety points, or whatever the motivation or incentive was you did. But you know, this brings me to this question, and it's really important, because your background in kinesiology, many of us know what Kinesiology is, and if, for those of you don't, who haven't been to a chiropractor, look for a strength test they do when they push your arms down to kind of figure out what's actually happening in your body. How can the deeper understanding of physical wellness, let's just say, in general, maybe it isn't even kinesiology, but it's just physical wellness overall, improve workplace safety programs, because you and I talked in our pre interview about these companies now that are putting on electronic devices that are measuring how a person lifts a box, or they're are they using their back too much, or they're not using their legs enough, or their range of motion is too small. And I think these devices are fascinating, to be honest with you, because, yeah, the wearable technology is isn't there? I would assume Southern California Edison is using stuff like this too now. Or are they?
You know, shortly before I took the early retirement they we were beginning to explore that the use of wearable technology to help predict those prevalence so there's there I and I believe they may be doing so now, and I know Predictive
analytics is the key For the insurance carriers, because, look, you're trying to reduce workman's comp claims. Let's face it, that's like the work the premiums are billions of dollars to companies like these, right? Absolutely, about
$20 billion a year, to be exact, in terms of musculoskeletal disorders. That's, that's how much it costs on an average, it's crazy.
It's crazy. Yeah, it is crazy. And even the impact you could make by being somebody who advocated, even if it was kinesiology testing or so on. But I'm sure the company didn't let you go too far with that, only because of legal reasons or whatever. But you were able to work within an opportunity to make suggestions to people like, hey, maybe you ought to do stretching, or you ought to do yoga, or you ought to do something to keep your body so that you don't have these injuries. Right, right,
right, absolutely. And in my experience with, you know, because of the Kinesiology background, I mean, my my number one go to analogy was a bicycle. You think of a bicycle, and you think of the wheels, and you think of the spokes. And I would say, if there is one spoke missing or broken, that bike will not It goes like this. The back table goes in the way it was designed to function. And so I'm an avid I'm an
avid cyclist, so I know when I break what happens is the wheel goes like this, absolutely, you know what?
And we don't make it work, because that's just our nature as human beings is, even if our back is hurting, you know, we normalize pain in our life. And I saw a lot of that as well, the normalization of pain. I call it the pain culture. And I realized, you know, we, they, they. We don't need to live like that if we can fix the other components so that the entire wheels are functioning right? The spokes are working as they're supposed to work. Then that bike in our bodies will function the way that we were designed to function. Yeah,
most definitely. Now, you know you went through this COVID 19 pandemic challenge, and it bring, obviously, brings in all kinds of challenges for somebody in safety to work with. You had people that were having to work in different ways, design new ways to work to and then the workplace safety with, I'm sure, even a bigger factor in one respect and in another respect, it was so much of a bigger factor. It was more looked on how we're not going to spread COVID, right? So can you tell us what the long term lessons were from that, and for the leaders of somebody going through something like this pandemic, and how it really affected or positively and or negatively your your programs.
Well, you know, COVID changed the entire last disrupted, I would say, disrupted, the landscape of how we conducted our jobs. So I went from, you know, conducting monthly safety meetings in person, conducting ergonomic assessments in person, everything went away. Everything went virtual, and it tested us profoundly. And I think the lesson learned for leaders as well as safety professionals is that we learned the necessity, the importance of being, you know, flexible, a part of the you know, adaptable, embracing innovation, you know, maybe creating new work models that didn't exist before. And for those leaders who were operating from a place of sort of helicopter, meaning, if they had to sit back and be okay, I need to trust my workforce more. And I think it just opened doors that I've seen it now a lot of slowly but surely in the I'm not studying public Edison, employees are coming back to work, but not the way that we traditionally were working. And my understanding is that there's more productivity. They are being more productive working in an, you know, working from home, or having that option to work, you know, hybrid type of a work model, right when they work, maybe two, two days from home or two days from at the office. So I think there was, there was huge lesson learned. Uh, lessons learned. Well,
I think, I think what you bring up is an important point, and it's about autonomy. You know, when you can give somebody some more autonomy and a longer rope, frequently they don't just take that rope, they really expand and do things better for you. It's when you put all these restrictions on people that frequently you get resistance, like the people with their arms crossed, right? Oh, no, another safety meeting. Well, maybe we could help improve with you and CO, create a way this should be done. And you shared some powerful metaphors, like swim, buoy to buoy in your book, can you elaborate on how this metaphors help you navigate the challenges and how it might inspire others who are going to read your book, and I'm going to hold the book back up again. It's the safe zone cultivating engagement, one leader at a time. How does this swim buoy to buoy affect leaders?
Well, for those when you've got the book. And for those of you who are going to read my book, you'll, you'll read that I had a paralyzing fear of water. Learn to swim so I can participate in triathlons. So the challenging part for me was the swimming part of the triathlon. So I operated out of the place of if I could just swim to the first bully. You know, have my meltdown, or whatever was going to occur, regroup and go to the next one and the next one and the next you know, I was finished. So that bully to bully metaphor was a game changer for me, and continues to be a game changer for me, whether
a step at a time, one step
at a time, whether one small step degree writing my book. It's one step at a time. Feel the fear, do it anyway, and then break it down into baby steps. However, that looks like for everybody. Everybody's Yeah,
yeah, that's, it's good advice. I mean, anything. I remember having the guy who wrote the book, tiny habits on here, right? So if you can take one small step toward that like you're saying, buoy to buoy. Okay, I made it to the first, you know, buoy. I can make it to the next buoy. I can just keep doing that until you overcome the fear associated with, you know, doing your full two mile swim, or whatever it was at that point. But I do get that concept, and that is something that I think people frequently Maria, they try and bite off so much so they have this huge goal, but they don't break the goal down into proximal goals, into smaller, little goals that will help them achieve their larger goal that they have in life, which is, like You said, the completion of the marathon or the triathlon, or whatever it might be. Right now,
celebrating those small wins, right? It's, it's celebrating small accomplishments along the way. Because if you look at the, I mean, I would look at all of the, you know, the the buoys in the ocean, and I think I could never do that. So that really was a game changer for just to look, you know, to the first and then move on. And
it is about looking toward one buoy, then the next buoy, then the next buoy, right. And I remember this. I happened to when I was very young in the financial services business. I worked for a gentleman by the name of grant Benning. His daughter was Annette Bening, and she was recently in that movie. And I've had the pleasure many times to spend time with Annette, and she was in the movie where she actually swam. And I asked her, I said, you know, how many of me, how much of that was actually used swimming out there. It's called Nyad, right. Oh, the woman who swam from, was it Miami to Miami? Right, right. So she said there was no double it was all me. So there wasn't another person out there in the water. You can imagine that's pretty something, but talk about one buoy at a time, that's definitely like, one buoy at a time. Oh,
I was watching that movie and I was PTSD. Is like remembering, you know, how challenging that was, and also remembering the how wonderful it felt to be able to complete something.
Well, she tried it three times, right? Yes, so she didn't make it till the third time. So you talk about persistence, that's the other thing that I think is extremely important, is grit. You know, I think that's spoken a lot, a lot in the business leadership books is the grit, determination, persistence, and that's real important. Now you give all kinds of it great wisdom in this book, and I want people to understand that. But finally, what are the most actionable steps leaders can take to foster culture or develop a culture in their organization. And this is a big one of trust and safety in industry, where risks are inherent. So we're talking about anybody in construction, anybody in any kind of area or arena where something's being built, right? Shipyards, construction, electrical work, utilities, a very large part of our country works in this arena. And I think for many of these listeners out here, you know, I know Boeing is having its own problems right now, but those, all those people went on strike right and just now, recently resolved the strike. But usually it's the against us, right? It's like, well, so what are you striking for? Is it really striking? Sometimes the strike is for better safety conditions. How many of these strikes have been around safety conditions? In this case, it was really about more money. But the reality is, is, how would a leader culture change this fault, or, I should say, foster a culture of trust and safety in these industries? In your estimation,
you know it sounds easy and very much more difficult
in practicality is,
for me, my experience is that first, leaders have the power to influence people, their workforce. They have the power. It's owning it a leader must accept and embrace and own that they do have the power to influence their employees, and I'll tell you, once that occurs and everything else will follow. I've seen it. I've lived it. So for me, I the number one, I guess, advice that I would give a leader is adopting read about the Authentic Leadership Theory and the transformational, transformative power of authentic leadership theory and adopt it. Adapt it, adopt it and let it become that leadership style. It will transform the leader. And when a leader is transformed, the leader has the power to transform their organization. Yeah,
you know, I mean, we've seen so many books out around leadership, and I've had plenty on this show, but I think you hit on a key point, and it can't be emphasized enough, and that is around authenticity. Yeah, right. In other words, Look, you can't trust somebody if they're not authentic, if, if they don't admit to you their own weaknesses and their own challenges and to be real. And I'm going to say, be real, it means like, hey, look, I'm not perfect by any means. I have my own fallacies, my own issues, and admit to those, the people underneath you really respect you as a whole lot more. So when I say this, kind of like, take the ego out of it. If you can remove the ego, which is the i, and make it the it, you know, it's really over, you can move it from the I to the We, however you want it to be. You really can overcome a lot. And I see people, because I consult in these arenas, as well as you where there's this. You know, people always say one this Hispanic culture, how do we deal with these individuals? Because they have this whole hierarchy, right? I say the best way you can deal with that is to be authentic with them. That's how they're going to trust you. Otherwise, they're not going to trust you, and you're going to get a lot of crossed arms. Crossed
arms, right? Yeah. And leaders, you know, they have to do, they have to practice all this. And one bully at a time, right? One bully at a time, and, and we, I've seen leaders underestimate their workforce, right? They don't understand that. You know, we're smart. We're smart people. We can tell when someone's themed, and we can tell when a leader truly prepares or is just checking the box,
right? And they also have to foster a training area for people, because, look, there's a lot that they don't know, but when you train somebody up, meaning upward mobility. You have to be giving the encouragement that there's more than just digging that ditch. You know, the old theory was, when the any, I'm sure you've heard this, Maria's like they asked three workers who were laying bricks. They asked the first guy said, I'm wearing bricks. They asked the second guy, and he says, I'm building a wall. And then they ask the third guy, and he goes, Don't you know I'm building a cathedral, right? So it's the perspective of seeing the world as I'm building the cathedral, not I'm just laying bricks, okay? Because this is, it's the kind of the whole process of, hey, I'm not just digging a trench, but I'm digging the trench for this utility line that's going to actually bring power to all of these people here, right? And when you look at it,
equal the whole, right? Some of the parts equal the whole, right?
You got it. You said it better than I did. Well, it's been a pleasure having you on the show, you've really given insight and wisdom into this whole area around safety, wellness in the workplace, how it affects employees, engagement and productivity. And I want to thank you for being on the show again for all of my listeners, this is the book called Safe Zone. We've been on with Dr Maria Silva. Say it again. I don't want to mess it up. Palacio Palacios, and please go out and get her book. You will also put a link up to her LinkedIn account. She doesn't particularly have a specific website for the book itself. Is that correct? Correct? Not yet, right, but, but we will be linking you, linking everybody, to her LinkedIn account, so go check her out there and and you can reach her that way as well. So thank you so much, my pleasure.
Thank you so much. Have a great,
wonderful rest of your day.
Thank you.
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Inside Personal Growth with Greg Voisen · Podcast: 1173: From Personal Challenge to Purpose-Driven Business: Arshad Bahl’s Journey with Amrita Health FoodsIn a recent episode of Inside Personal Growth, host Greg Voisen spoke with Arshad Bahl, founder of Amrita Health Foods, about his inspiring path from personal challenges to building a health-conscious brand. Arshad’s journey began when his son was diagnosed with autism and severe gastrointestinal issues. Seeking solutions beyond conventional treatments, Arshad embarked on a mission to improve his son’s health through a low-inflammation diet. This dedication led to the creation of Amrita Health Foods—a company committed to making allergen-free, plant-based snacks that support both gut health and overall well-being.A Mission Rooted in Wellness and CommunityArshad’s journey reflects his belief that food can be a powerful tool for wellness. Inspired by the connection between gut health and autism, Amrita Health Foods offers nutritious, allergen-free bars made from simple, clean ingredients. Each product is designed to support a range of dietary needs, from low-sugar and nut-free options to vegan and soy-free offerings, providing nutritious snacks for individuals and families.
Beyond nutrition, Arshad’s commitment to community stands out. Recognizing the high unemployment rate among young adults with autism, Amrita Health Foods proudly employs young adults on the autism spectrum, providing them with meaningful work in packaging and production. Through partnerships with nonprofits, Arshad’s mission extends to creating a supportive work environment where his team can thrive.
Supporting Small Businesses with PurposeArshad’s story is a powerful reminder of the positive impact small businesses can have when they remain authentic and focused on a purpose. He emphasizes the importance of supporting mission-driven companies that prioritize quality, wellness, and social responsibility. For those interested in trying Amrita’s allergen-free, plant-based snacks, Amrita Health Foods is offering a special promotion on their website. Use the code STARTERSPECIAL at checkout to sample their products.
Connect with Arshad and Amrita Health FoodsTo learn more about Arshad’s journey and support Amrita Health Foods, connect with him and follow along:
- Website: Amrita Health Foods
- LinkedIn: Arshad Bahl
- Instagram: @AmritaBars
- Facebook: Arshad Bahl
Arshad’s dedication to quality, wellness, and community is a testament to how personal challenges can inspire impactful solutions. His story reminds us of the power of resilience, authenticity, and a purpose-driven approach to business.
You may also refer to the transcripts below for the full transciption (not edited) of the interview.
Interview Transcipt -Not EditedEmailDownloadNew TabGreg Voisen
Welcome back to Inside personal growth. This is Greg Voisen, the host of the inside personal growth and Arshad Bahl is joining us from New York and he was referred to me by David Knoll. And David noble owns a company called Pacific resource International, which is actually in Cambria, California, and they sell manuka honey of which now I am a huge purchaser of I think David's got me on a regular shipping order, because I believe in the healing properties of that and let's talk about that. I go to the natural products West Expo every year, and David actually referred a shot to me and said, Hey, here's the deal, man, you may want to profile. I did not meet him at the natural products West Expo. Just to be clear, but were you there.
I walked the show a few times this year. I didn't but I've been there a few times. Okay.
Greg Voisen
So he has a personal story about his son that was diagnosed with autism and severe severe gastrointestinal issues and many people and parents when they're on a quest to solve a problem. They don't go as far as their shot did to develop a whole company with super food bars, but they do go to try and find a solution. What is a good nutritional program? In this particular show? Is going to focus on nutrition and wellness and the right to story, his story and how he got there. And the other thing is, is kind of the journey also. Arshad is an avid cyclist like myself, and some of you may have seen my recent show about cycling corporate putting in corporate cycling programs to help people stay healthy and be healthy. And a shot has a huge background in cycling and has done lots of it like myself, and like many things, what you eat, how active you stay. And I'll say even more importantly, the community you've built around yourself is so so very important. And he's built a huge community of faithful people that buy his products. And if you want to learn more about those products, it's at an M Rita and that's spelled a m r i t a health foods.com. We'll put a link to that on our website so that you can learn more about it. So we kind of know what inspired you to start it but how is the personal health journey kind of influenced the mission of this company of your company? Ash rod?
Yeah. Greg, thanks for having me on the show. I'm a huge fan of what you do and been listening to a lot of people you interview so it's a it's an honor a pleasure to be on. So, you know, as you mentioned, not always do we connect the dots between something that we have done personally and then build a business around it and I you know, my background is consulting, marketing, working for Fortune 5050 companies, you know, all that kind of stuff business school that and when my my son's 20 Now, and when he was two and a half, he was diagnosed with autism. And I honestly didn't even know what that word was when he was diagnosed. We really had to do a lot of searching and we were a wife and myself. We were amazed at the amount of young kids especially boys who are getting diagnosed and that rate has been going steadily up through the years and it's I think it's one out of 10 or it was one and a half out of 10 then I think is now it's maybe even closer to two out of 10 young boys being diagnosed with autism and
Greg Voisen
shot what was your son's level of autism. I work raising money for an organization called Terry T on it. our.com here in Southern California that strictly focuses on group homes for autistic kids, and they have 625 kids that come to the facility every day and I used to go in and see them and go to the classes and dial nine yard but the severity levels of autism go from a one to a 10 Where where's your son on that spectrum?
Yeah, nonverbal till six very little eye contact, obviously, because no speech, a lot of stimming a lot of you know occupational sense, sensitivity around like light, sound, all these kinds of things. So I would say very severe to start with. But one of the things that we were lucky with was early on, we found early intervention, right around the age of two and a half. And in New York. There's a really good program just like in California with early intervention. And so we we got very involved in the early intervention piece. And one of the components of early intervention and early intervention typically is very structured speech, occupational therapy, which is around sensory stuff, and then a little bit of social behavior. Nutrition is not part of the equation. But I had always studied nutrition for years and years and years. And I knew that there was a connection between disease and and what you put in your gut. The problem was that in autism, that research was very mild. Little bits of stuff here and there. And I was lucky that the doctor who was seeing my son was doing a big piece of research at Columbia University in New York, around the connection between gut issues, and young boys. And he was just and he was just collecting all this data like was what was the inflammation in the gut? What was the type of foods that would help with recovery? And he was talking to us about it and he said, Would you know your son has severe gi problems need steroids, and they did this pill camp study, they put it through the entire body and they and it showed, yeah, really, really bad lesions and all that. So the choices were, we've given steroids will will cure it, but we'll have some after effects like stunt growth and things like that. We could give him a or we could put him on a low inflammation diet. And he said, I'm doing this research, that it's not conclusive that it will work, but it's worth trying. And the third one was give him an option of the two. And we said let's, let's start with the low inflammation diet because there's no side effect you know, what's the worst it will do it for a year or two and and one work and then we can go to steroids. And so that's you actually,
Greg Voisen
did you actually shot ever get involved? I know because I went to natural products West Expo and one of the speakers there who come on the show was Dr. Perlmutter. Yep. And I'm sure you're familiar. He wrote the whole about the, the gut health. Yep. Right. But one of the things I found quite interesting and I know you went to this allergen free plant based products, and that's what you develop this company on and for any of my listeners that are queasy, what they found, at least Pearl minor did was that and I'm sure you're aware of this, but many listeners out there may not be the the I'm just trying to think of the enzymes that are actually in a healthy gut. When somebody actually dedicates they take those enzymes and they re transplant them back into the patient who's got enzymes are in the your son's case. Very, very off whack. And the reality is, it's had huge effects. Yep. With with those have you tried that with him or No, no, we
didn't try that. So what we did is we wanted to take one slice of something, right, because there's so much there was chelation, there's all these Yeah. And the problem is when you do all of them together, it's hard to tell which one's working. So and food tends to be really difficult with autistic kids because they tend to be creatures of habit. And there's a there's a saying among young autistic kids that they eat the Brown died, which is French fries nuggets, and they really really liked that brown fried diet. And so my son was on it too. And we it was a very, very difficult transition out of that to what I call low inflammation, food and low inflammation. Food was essentially a lot of greens a lot of vegetables, a lot of fruits, a lot of good like non grain stuff Rice was was a big part of the diet. And this is where the bar sort of started coming in because we were actually trying to get something that was nutritionally dense for him because he was he was really struggling with eating food. And I wanted to make something that was delicious. So we said let's make these these balls or bars that were made with dates, dried fruit seeds, and pump as much nutrition into a small piece. And then you know initially he was a little reluctant because he wasn't really didn't didn't know what the hell those things were. So what we did is we actually made worked with him to make the product we you know, got him involved in the in the process and that process. Got him excited to try it. Once he tried it. They say like the kid has to try it seven times, eight times before they fully give up on the product. So we kept trying kept trying, you know, he liked it somewhat. But then he also had this problem with eye contact and social skills because he was nonverbal. So what we did is we set up a farmers market stand at the local train station, because we wanted him to talk to people about what he had created, which were these little bars. And that was really designed to build his social skills. And it worked really well because it got him to talk. And then when people said oh, this is delicious, he wanted to eat a bit more. So it was like a really nice circle around him getting excited about trying the product he made. And then him having more verbal skills as a result of it. And we were just super lucky that the whole foods buyer came off the train saw, you know, got it to talk to him, really fell in love with him. And then kind of turned to me and said, Why is this product not on our shelves? Right? And I said I had no idea about what CPG was absolutely no idea and this was when he was I think five
Greg Voisen
five no 15 So 15 years ago.
Yeah, yeah. 1516 Yeah. 16 Maybe
Greg Voisen
he's 20 now or is he 20? Yep, yeah,
he's 20 in college and all that and so, so she invited us to just put it on the shelves. Right? She said I know you're not you haven't you know nothing about CPG you make it in your home go making a commercial kitchen. Get on our shelves tell the story. This was pre Amazon Whole Foods love local, local, you know entrepreneurs. So, put it on the shelves started selling really well. People love the story. Hope was promoted, you know, the local radio stations did a big deal about it. And that that's that was the birth of what we do. And then you know, moved on and started. I was in the process of finishing up my career with IBM and I wanted to do something different and I had no idea what entrepreneurship was or food or anything. So I just you know, basically just jumped straight into it and dove
Greg Voisen
in, dove in. Just just you have really grown this thing over time. Quite a bit. So the offering for my listeners, you can go to the website like we'll put a link but you have low sugar protein bars, you've got protein bars for weight loss, dialysis friendly, not free protein bars, gluten free protein bars, so a free vegan and allergy free protein bars. So if you look at the lineup of the products, there's something there for everybody. You've got protein, oats, you've got dried fruits, you've got seeds. So the reality is is that when you go there to shop when you guys want to pick some of this up or go to Whole Foods, or any of the other places where these Amrita health foods are sold, definitely go in that way. Now, I want to ask you because you know, this is a very, very crowded market, and I ate the gentleman that I met at the natural products West F Expo, who created that nut bar with chocolate from New York and then gave a bunch of his money away. I'm trying to think of the name of it, I don't know it's it's in Costco, it's everywhere. So so the key is you know, staying true to your standards to your core values to the reason why you brought it up. How have you been able to do that when everybody's kind of moving so fast in this market? And they're they're all developing new bars and there's, you know, every time you go back to natural products, West Expo, there's a you know, 100 new bars, right. Yeah. And how do you keep yourself from getting lost in that totally maze?
Yeah, I think I think you have to be authentic to who you are. Right. And I and I say this because the word authentic is really used vary quite a bit without it, the true meaning. And what we mean by that is why did we start it? What was the what was the use case for the bar, the use case was low inflammation, and we believe that the the concept around food as medicine will never go away. Right? And so if you make a bar that is designed to help somebody with gut problems, and we know that gut health has been a growing problem, so the place for a product like this will always be there. And will there be copycats of course because the protein bar industry has a lot of companies that will make a bar for somebody else, right? So you can go to a co packer and say make me a bar just like I'm burritos. The difference is that because we run our own facility, we are not free. So and most co packers are not so that's what makes us different with the reason we did not free again there's nothing not a not don't cause inflammation peanuts do, but tree nuts don't. And the reason we did it was because kids can take it to school, right? So if you're designing this for young kids with gut gut inflammation problems, we wanted to make a bar that that the kid didn't have to ask for permission like you know, it's tasty enough. Let me take it to school. And so that was the reason we did it not pre and then we basically built a brand around just being authentic like you know, our customer service. is amazing. We sell direct to consumers most that's most of our business. We just build a really loyal audience of families. Most of the people who buy from us are either people with kids, or athletes or people who just care about a comp we're buying from a company that socially responsible makes good products has been around for a while. That's truly a core audience of who we sell to.
Greg Voisen
So in your factory, Arshad, how do you how are you taking it a step further with the autistic kids? I know we talked a little bit about this on the on the program. But you know, look, we could all hire anybody but now you've chosen to put part of this workforce together, which is autistic that is now helping you package and ship the bars and you do whatever I think our listeners want to know that story. So a little bit about the factory itself and how this came about and how many people you have working for you right now. Yeah, artistic.
So one of the one of the statistics that was very alarming to me and I wasn't aware of it till maybe three or four years ago, was the fact that unemployment rate among autistic kids who have graduated from school, so when they're in school till 18 years old, they have all the support services, whatever they need to but the that support service really falls off after 18. And then they're typically just staying at home, you know, if they're nonverbal if they've got, you know, social issues and all that. And so the unemployment rate is absolutely horrible. Among autistic kids 18 Plus, and there are lots of nonprofits that do a little bit to help them and it's mostly around vocational training. They'll take them to companies, and they'll give them vocational training. So when I found out about this, and I just started my company, I said, I want to hire as many of these kids as possible, because I have a very strong feeling that they're going to be amazing workers. Right? So I was on this mission to not just do it for doing good, but to really do it from a business perspective. Like I knew the results were super positive. And so and I've proven this over and over again, I have a full time employee who is, you know, was from the Autism Program. And then now I work with two different nonprofits that bring in groups of five, you know, two times a week, each of them so monday, wednesday, Tuesday, Thursday, and they come and work at our first facility and they get vocational training and the beautiful part about this is that I can see if some of them could become full time employees or recommend them to other places. But without a doubt, the ability of them to focus and get work done is absolutely incredible. There's something amazing about especially in manufacturing, there's a tremendous amount of repetitive work, and autistic kids do some of my they do well. Yeah. And my request to anybody who's listening here who has manufacturing, like go out of your way to hire young kids with autism. Because I can guarantee you for the dollar you pay them the money you pay them the the output is just insane. Then the kids who are not on their phones, they when you know they're like hungry to prove that they can get the work done because the metrics really matter to them. Way more than they matter to their peers. 2530 year old peers, you know, so, so,
Greg Voisen
what, what has actually happened now with your son, he's 20 years old. You've been taking very good care of him. I don't know. Is he still at home with you guys? Does he still live with you?
So he made extremely good progress, like around the seven year eight, seven, till about age 12. And, you know, the, the brain of young kids is very pliable, right. So this is where early intervention is so important. So we started at two and a half till five, six, very little change, right? But we stayed at it like 40 hours a week or the internet. And then all of a sudden, the brain the neurons started firing. All this work we did started converting to results. We started coming out once speech came out a lot of stuff started happening. Right. He could, you could have conversations. He still had a really tough time catching up because literally it was catching up from a couple years. But yeah, he's in college. He's in a physics major honor student, you know, so. But he's fantastic. Yeah. You know, it's still quirky. Well,
Greg Voisen
they're artistic kids and they're they're usually always quirky. So it's yeah, it's but it's but look, the fact that he's in college, the fact that he's a physics major. The fact that he went from nonverbal to being a physics major and doing well and like you said, they really have when they have exceptionally intelligent brains and they can really complicated stuff together, right. So the way I look at it is and it depends on the degree of the spectrum of where they are in autism. But in your case, you said he went from nonverbal to verbal at age eight, or whatever it was, and then it all started to come out. And here it is. Now you started this company. You now have and I'm looking here at your array of products from chocolate chip coconut, to apple cinnamon to Dark Chocolate Crunch to chocolate protein bars. Our listeners can get these on your website direct or what are the major chains now that are carrying you besides maybe Whole Foods or other places that people are listening today that could say okay, I want to try some of these Annamarie to help fill bars.
Yeah, so, we have we sell in about three 400 stores, but most of our business is E commerce. Okay, so heavily on Amazon walmart.com thrive.com All the dot coms We're big on on our website. And you know they can if they want to try it a simple code starter, special starter special one word, they can get a box of bars for free. Like we're really big on like, low barrier to entry, try the product. And if they like it great, then then they can purchase more. So that's we're mostly a direct to consumer company because we really believe in not having a lot of middle entities between us. And serving the customer. So we don't do a lot of work with the big retail establishments. And that's how we build our business model is is you know, directly so I see I
Greg Voisen
see the high protein bar starter pack. Is that what you're saying? Yeah, and they can get that one for free. That's all they just have to put in the code. Start a special starters special one word fun and encourage the listeners go to this. It's Emery to hell food for class collections, high protein bars, we'll put a link you'll see high protein bars, and then just put in starter special. And that way you will be able to when you go to checkout, you'll get some sample bars as a matter of fact, it looks like it's a sample of all of them. They look like the small ones, little tiny, tiny ones, but the reality is it gets allows you to sample these bars, see if you like them and then come back and get more bars. So all of these bars are well many of them vegan 100% clean so a free not free, low sugar keto friendly, allergy free and like he said he doesn't have any nuts in his in his factory where he produces these and he's employing autistic kids to do it. Which is even greater because there's a whole artistic community out there that will support your bars meaning I know people that I can recommend this to let will actually buy because of the autism community. You know, you have an amazing story and a wonderful story because you did something good for the world. And I want to thank you for sharing the story about the bars. And not only the bars, there's all kinds of other products that people can look at as well at the website, but start with his free Starter Pack. They'll get the starter pack. We'll actually put that link in our blog for for the listeners so that they can actually, you know, type it in and get themselves free bar and I hope they'll come back and buy from you again and again and again after they test. And like he said they you can find it and retailers but more likely just go to Amazon if you want to pick it up or go directly to his website, a box of these bars and I don't know how many is in it is 2999 So it's not super expensive. It's $30 How many are in a box?
There's a dozen in there. Dozens. Okay all bars. Yeah, so
Greg Voisen
But are there about $3 in a piece? Yeah. Yeah, something like that. So your your story is fantastic. The Story of Your Son, I'm glad your son is doing really well. I'm glad that company is thriving still even with the plethora of bars that are out there in the marketplace. And most importantly, you're employing autistic kids to work in your factory to actually get these bars manufactured in and sent out. So that's, that's really a big deal. And is there any final words that you'd have for our listeners before we part?
Well, I mean, I just want to say that I think, you know, does CPG business is under a lot of pressure. I know you talked to a lot of founders, right because supply chain is is tough. labor rates are up and we've been we bootstrapped this this company, and we do a very heavy social mission part to it, but by paying people really well to be part of our company and I really believe in the whole small business mission part of what we do. And I and so I implore the people on the call to support small businesses right whether it is us or other small, but there's a restaurant or something because that's the heart, you know, the heartbeat of this country and so I think everybody is under a tremendous financial pressure. Put aside all the other pressures to just to stay afloat. But I see innovation happening in small businesses that I don't see innovation happening, you know, at say Clif Bar or something like that. And so if you want the latest, allergen friendly product, the latest keto product, whatever it is cutting edge of of help, but typically the small businesses are doing that. And so, you know, the support of people towards those small businesses is so vital. And that's I just wanted to say that because I see, I understand that people are trying to be careful with their their dollars and that's what we do direct to consumers because we can keep the price really low and and not have a whole bunch of people in the middle that, you know, we have to give the percentage to him but there are lots of companies like us who are direct to consumer, or they're just small and they're doing really wonderful products out there. And I just love for people to support companies like that. Yeah,
Greg Voisen
it's like you know, look, we we see many of these companies that do similar products, but there's one right here in San Diego that father would got sick and they they created a bar that had to be refrigerated. I forget the perfect, perfect bar. It's in Yeah, it's in Costco, right? Yeah. Do you still see it in the refrigerator section because it has to be refrigerated. And it's really quite a nice tasting bar. By the way. It's a wonderful bar and the daughter who is now running the company has been on and featured in so many local media outlets and so on. But when you look at it, it's really a great story. It's a family where the dad was dying of cancer. You know, they got the bars going as a way to do it, something very similar to what you're doing. And I always commend that because family businesses, they then got a huge seed round of funding, funding, then grew this company into a multinational, huge company, which they never thought was possible, but it's possible for you to so i want to put that out there. Keep it in your mindset that it's there. Let's support and read a health foods and let's support a shrug ball and what his mission is here for autistic kids to work in in factory and I appreciate you being on the show. And I appreciate you taking your time to really just explore how this all came about and what you put into the bars and why these bars are so much healthier. Appreciate it. Namaste.
Thank You Greg. Take care
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Inside Personal Growth with Greg Voisen · Podcast 1171: The Learn-It-All Leader: Mindset, Traits and Tools with Damon LembiIn a recent episode of Inside Personal Growth, Greg Voisen welcomes Damon Lembi, the CEO of Learn It, a global leader in corporate training. Damon shares insights from his book, The Learn-It-All Leader: Mindset, Traits, and Tools, where he explores the transformative power of a “learn-it-all” mindset. With over 1.8 million professionals upskilled under his leadership, Damon is a champion of continuous learning, adaptability, and resilience in a fast-paced corporate landscape.
From the Baseball Field to the BoardroomDamon’s journey to leadership wasn’t conventional. An aspiring professional baseball player, he experienced firsthand the highs and lows of a competitive sport. A memorable encounter with baseball legend Barry Bonds taught Damon that true success lies in curiosity and constant learning. This lesson has carried into his work at Learn It, where he now empowers leaders to embrace a mindset of growth and continuous development.
“Every situation offers a chance to learn,” says Damon. This powerful insight underpins the philosophy behind The Learn-It-All Leader, encouraging leaders to stay curious, share knowledge, and keep pushing forward.
Creating a Culture of LearningA hallmark of Damon’s leadership style is creating a culture that fosters growth and psychological safety. In his book, Damon contrasts “know-it-all” leaders with “learn-it-all” leaders, underscoring the importance of humility, openness, and collaborative learning. Rather than prescribing solutions, a “learn-it-all” leader facilitates exploration, empowering team members to find innovative solutions.
At Learn It, Damon has built a platform where professionals can access courses on everything from technical skills to emotional intelligence. His philosophy: “Learning without doing is treason.” For Damon, it’s vital that learners not only acquire knowledge but also actively apply it.
Practical Advice for Overcoming Imposter SyndromeDamon also addresses a common leadership challenge: imposter syndrome. Having grappled with self-doubt in his career, Damon developed a three-step approach to push through:
- Work Hard: There’s no substitute for effort.
- Deliberate Practice: Focus on mastering one area at a time.
- Learn and Let Go: Trust in your preparation, and don’t let fear hold you back.
For those interested in overcoming self-doubt and finding their footing, Damon’s approach provides an actionable roadmap to embracing new opportunities without fear.
The Future of Learning: AI and BeyondAs technology transforms learning, Damon’s company has integrated AI tools and microlearning to supplement live instruction, offering bite-sized learning modules that enhance retention. However, Damon emphasizes that AI should augment, not replace, human-led training.
For Damon, the most critical skills in the future of work will be adaptability, clear communication, and learning agility. As he puts it, “Companies grow because their people grow.” This commitment to personal and professional development drives his vision for Learn It, where he offers classes on everything from technical skills to leadership.
Ready to Learn More?To dive deeper into Damon Lembi’s approach, check out his book, The Learn-It-All Leader: Mindset, Traits, and Tools or connect with him on his LinkedIn, YouTube, Instagram, and Facebook pages. Damon also extends a special offer for Inside Personal Growth listeners: connect with him on LinkedIn, mention the podcast, and receive a free $250 class at Learn It.
You may also refer to the transcripts below for the full transciption (not edited) of the interview.
Interview Transcipt -Not EditedEmailDownloadNew TabGreg Voisen
Well, welcome back to Inside personal growth. This is Greg voisen, the host of inside personal growth, and sitting in Sausalito, California. On the other side of this screen is Damon lembi, and there'll be a thing that'll pop up digitally for us, but the book is called The learn it all leader mindset, traits and tools. And Damien came to me kind of, I think he reached out. But then when I went to the Learn it website, so it's learn it.com website for all of my listeners, he has a wonderful platform for anybody seeking skills knowledge, primarily skip more skills knowledge, you'll definitely want to go there. And who knows, maybe and Damien will give some of our listeners a little bit off if you sign up for the courses. So, Damian, Good day to you. How you doing? Well, Greg,
it's great to be here, and I like to go by Damon. But don't worry about it, because even my mom calls me Damian sometimes. Damon, thanks for having me.
Greg Voisen
Okay, my bad. My bad. You're alright. You're alright. So I'm going to let them all know a bit about you. Damon. He's the CEO of learn it. He actually took the company over from his father who founded it. He's a global leader in corporate training solutions and up skilled more than 1.8 million professionals in the past 20 years. He lives in the Bay Area. As we already said, he's in Sausalito. He loves books. You can look right behind him and see that. And after this green screens off, there'll be lots of books behind me. He likes live music and all of but all of that, and spending time with his wife, kids and Pablo the puggy. So that's cool. I love it when we get a little bit personal here. Now, you know, this book, obviously, is a little bit about your life as kind of being a baseball player, wanting to be a baseball player, I should say, and I wouldn't say you weren't, but you wanted to be pro. We were just talking about Barry Bonds before he came on here tell us a little bit about this journey that you went through in Arizona, actually meeting Barry Bonds, then taking this company over from your dad, and now actually growing this company to a very large company, I think it's a it's a great story, great success story. Well,
thank you, Greg, so yeah, I'm Damon lembi, and I live out here in Sausalito, and I was born and raised in the Bay Area, and growing up for me, it was all about sports and baseball, football, basketball, and by the time I was a sophomore in high school, I realized that if I was going to play in college or pro, my ticket to get there was baseball. So I went all in on baseball. I worked really hard, and it turned out pretty well. My senior year, I was a high school all American, and I had my first really big choice, do I want to go the minor league route? I got drafted by the Atlanta Braves out of high school, and so I had my first big choice, do I want to go to the minor leagues or at the time, I had a full ride to Pepperdine University down in Malibu, and that's one of the first things I learned about leadership, is I went, I went to Pepperdine, and it was awesome because my parents gave me the support. And they said, This is your decision your life. We'll support you in whatever direction you want to go. And the reason I went to Pepperdine was that our coach, Andy Lopez, who's a Hall of Fame coach, he had this crystal clear vision, you know, we're going to win the College World Series within two years. And if you think about Pepperdine, there's only 2500 kids there. So that's a, that's a that's a moonshot goal when you, when you, when you go up against LSU or Arizona state. And so I went there. I believed in what Coach Lopez had to say. I get there, you know, I'm used to being the the best of the best. And then once I got there, everybody was as good as me, right? And so for the first time in my life, I really had to deal with imposter syndrome, because I was like, do I even belong here? Am I good enough? And I was homesick and everything. And really, one point that stands out in my life, and I think this is kind of a great, great, important story is, it's the fall season, and I'm called in for my first meeting with coach, Lopez, like a performance review. And Greg, he sits me down, and he says, young man, when I recruited you here, I did so because I believed in the coaching staff believed that you had what it takes to be a big league baseball player and at least a star third baseman, you know, to hit in the middle of our lineup. And he's like, unfortunately, son, you don't have what it takes to be a division one baseball player. And he and he said that, and he paused, and he crossed his arms, and he sat back, and as you can imagine, I thought to myself, I mean, oh my gosh. How do I get out of here? My dreams were crushed, and I just felt terrible. And before I had a chance to respond, he sat forward, and he pointed at me, and he said, Damon, that's not what I think of you. The problem is, that's what you think about yourself, and if you have, if you have these limiting beliefs, if this is your mindset, and you can't get out of your own head, you're never going to succeed. And that really, that really stuck with me. I'd like to say that I immediately turned things around. I didn't I got hurt, and I left Pepperdine, and I was lucky enough to get to play at Arizona State. Now the the cool thing was, though, Greg, the year I left, they won the College World Series, which is which is amazing. Pepperdine won the College World Series, and so it just showed me right there that you can set moonshot goals, get your team behind you and make it happen. I get to Arizona State. I have a really good career there, but unfortunately, I didn't get drafted. And so here I am at the time, 22 years old. My entire identity is wrapped up in becoming a major league baseball player, and my career was basically over with. I mean, I could have went the independent route, but at that point, I was just kind of struggling, and didn't really know what I should do, and I didn't know if any of my skills were even transferable to the business world, and that's where my business career started.
Greg Voisen
Well, you know, this book is interesting and your platform is interesting because you've come into a business where you're teaching all people all about skills to become better, just like at baseball. Mean, if you don't get up to bad enough times and you don't take swings, you're never going to know what your success rate is. And the book this the learn it all leader, it emphasizes mindset, just what you were talking about. And I've always been curious and learning you even wrote in the book. To me, that's the way you signed it. What inspired you to kind of write the book, and why do you think that the mindset? Because, you know, Carol Dweck is kind of like the the most famous one that talks about mindsets. We've had all kinds of people on here. Guy Kawasaki, he references her. Everybody references her. So why is it so crucial for leaders today to have this, what you're going to call it, basically moonshot mindset, yeah, well, let's
call it. You could call it Carol Dweck, yeah, if you haven't read growth mindset, I mean, you should go out there and get that right away. That's an awesome book. Another one by Angela Duckworth. Grit is awesome, awesome, I think, foundationally for leadership. And this is self leadership and everything. It has to start with your mindset. You know you have to frame things. You need to be able to look at things as an opportunity instead of a problem and and that puts you in the position to be successful and give yourself an opportunity. Because if you don't, if you have a fixed mindset, or what I like to call in my book, a know it all mindset, then you're not going to have the opportunity for growth. So to answer your question, why I think curiosity is so important is that we need to always be continuously learning. You know, the change of pace is so fast these days, Greg, that we have to be open to being adaptable, changing our mind, learning and growing and getting diverse opinions and hearing things from all over the place, because if we're not, then, unfortunately, I think we're, we're going to be left behind.
Greg Voisen
Very good point. And I think in today's world, you have to learn how to connect the dots. I was listening to Rita McGrath's one of my podcasts. And you know, the issue is really seeing how the dots connect in today's world, because we progress so fast. And you know what? I thought was cool, and you and I were talking about it for we actually started talking here on the actual recording, about a pivotal moment, pivotal moment for you with Barry Bonds, when he taught you a valuable lesson. And obviously your whole life was wrapped up in baseball, and then the guy says, You're not the guy. How did that moment shape your approach to leadership and learning? Because here you are now, the CEO of this company that's all about helping people learn and improve skills.
Yeah. I mean, I think life is a wild ride. I mean, never in my wildest dreams did I ever imagine I was end up in the learning development world for my entire career. I mean, I went to Arizona State and I, and I, my mom hates when I say this, but I basically majored in baseball, really, right? And I, but I took everything I learned from baseball and moved on. And the story you're referring to that I talked about in my book is I was, it was alumni weekend. I was on in the on deck circle. I was batting third, and the picture was warming up, and I heard this voice behind me, and it's like, hey, number 20. Hey, number 20. And you know, you don't, don't usually turn around, not supposed to turn around. There's 10,000 people in the crowd, but I knew that Barry Bonds was sitting right behind me, right so? And I'm like, is that Barry? So I turned around, I look, and he points to he says, Come over here. And he said, when you're when if the pitcher squeezes his glove, he's throwing a fastball. If he opens up his glove, he's throwing a curveball. And Barry's you know? And so the lesson that this taught me. The funny thing about this lesson is, when I went up to the plate, I was trying to pay attention to what Barry said. I couldn't figure it out at all. I couldn't see what Barry see, you know, he's Barry, right? And so I stopped worrying about that, and I ended up hitting a double. And I waved to him, and he was, you know, wave back. But the whole point about that lesson there is, is Barry is not only is he one of the most physically talented baseball players I've ever seen, but he's a student of the game, you know, and he's not wasting time. So here he's at this alumni baseball game. He's sitting in the crowd, and instead of, well, it was in the 90s, so there was no Instagram, but instead of just wasting time, he's sitting there, and he's trying to make himself better. He's learning, right? He's he's trying to pick up, you know, things that can give him an advantage. And the cool part was that he took the time to share this back with me. So I think that that's kind of this pivotal example for me, that you know, for your listeners out there, every situation you're in, you can learn from people. And if you go to a party, your wife drags you to a party and you don't want to be there, you know, get yourself out of your comfort zone. Go talk to people, learn about different subjects that maybe you're unfamiliar with, because you could learn from people, and it's all part of setting this mentality, Greg, like we talked about, that you're always curious and learning, and hopefully you can also do the same for others, where you can give back and share with them some of the knowledge or wisdom that you have. Well,
Greg Voisen
it's kind of what your dad started when you're giving this knowledge back, and then you took the company over. And I think the key is, you know, you look what you've developed this into, and it's pretty phenomenal, the work that you're doing at learn it. And I think for our listeners, you know, definitely I'm going to plug again. Go to learn it.com. And check it out. There's all kinds of courses on there that you can engage with. Now, you refer in the book The and you distinguish between you. Just said, in a minute, learn it alls and know it alls, you know. And I'm sure our listeners can figure that that, figure that one out. But can you elaborate on the differences between these two types of leaders? Because there's one leader that tells you there's another leader that includes you, right? And when you're a good leader, you're basically include there's an inclusion element. I want to hear your side. I'm not going to just tell you how to do it. I want you to figure out how to do it and do it better than the way that I would have done it, right? So what are those key differences to you? Yeah,
absolutely. I mean, starting off with the know it all. They just come in. They have all the answers. They're not they're not open to other ideas. It's their way or the highway. It's a, it could be even a toxic environment for your culture, if, if you have a leader, and it's all about whatever they say, right? You know? So it's my way or the highway. On the flip side, learn it all. I mean, I have a great story from five minutes ago. I was standing in line having a getting a coffee, and this woman I knew was sharing with me, she was probably reminiscing about her dad, and she said that her father never answered a question for her. He always helped her come to the conclusion herself by being curious, asking questions. And you know, it really helped her with her mindset of, instead of having a leader who just jumps in and tells you the answer, learn it. All leaders. They do that. They create space for people to learn and try things out, and psychologically safe space, where if somebody fails, that that's okay, you know, it gives you the opportunity to learn. And I think that that that type of environment is so crucial for today's world, where, because if you're going to learn and grow as an organization, you need to be able to delegate out and empower people and give them the responsibility, but they need to feel like they can trust you as a leader, that you're not going to jump down their back. So it's not about giving everybody the answers. It's not about having all the answers. It's about being open and flexible that sometimes the fact or the you know what you think is right there, you may need to pivot and go in a different direction.
Greg Voisen
Very, very well said. And I think that, or anybody who's a continual learner, they get that. I mean, you can look at the books behind you, and the volumes and volumes that I've had come across my thing after 11 170 podcasts, it's amazing. You know you gotta, you gotta be a continual learner. And you know, you had mentioned this before we came on to the the podcast about overcoming imposter syndrome and and the lucky curse. How can leaders recognize and break free from these mental traps. And we just had a lady on here who wrote a whole book about imposter I've had several on that have written about imposter syndrome. So first, define what it means to you, and then how do leaders overcome it?
So we talked about two things there, imposter syndrome and lucky curse. You know, Lucky curse that just means growing up in an environment where you're really fortunate. And, you know, I came from a great family with a lot of resources, and sometimes, you know, you get, you get the feeling that maybe you don't deserve it, and but at the end of the day, even with all the resources that you have when you step into the box in baseball, you still have to be the one hitting the ball, right, you know? So you have to get out of the mindset that, hey, you know, sure, I'm fortunate, but I'm not going to be this kid who's got a silver spoon stuck in your in your mouth, and the best way to get through that is just to work hard and lead by example, and you know, deliver on what you say you're going to deliver on. Now, the more common one, like you said, is imposter syndrome, self doubt, limiting beliefs that I think everybody struggles with at some point in our life. Yeah, and if people, but there are people who say they don't, and they're either a sociopath or they're just not telling the truth. And so for me, what I've done is, and it goes back to my baseball days, but I've built a framework that I use to help overcome imposter syndrome, and it starts with if there's something, you know, if I'm if you're somebody and you're you just got promoted to a new job, and maybe you're thinking to yourself, well, do I even deserve this job?
Greg Voisen
I'm not good enough.
I'm not good enough. So listeners, if you're in that situation, it's not your responsibility to know whether or not you're good enough. You were given this opportunity. So other people believe in you just go out and do the best you can do. And for those of you who don't want to apply for a job, because maybe you don't meet all the criteria that's on the on the job posting, if it's something you're passionate about, go for it anyways. I've hired hundreds of people who didn't necessarily fit what it said as far as the responsibilities. So just go for it. If it's something that you want to do, go for it. But getting back to my like, when I'm struggling with imposter syndrome, the first thing I want to do is I want to label my fear like, what am I what am I afraid of? Right? Okay, okay, I'm afraid of getting out, giving this keynote speech that I think to myself, well, what's the worst thing that can happen if it goes wrong? Okay, maybe somebody laughs at me, right? Okay, well, then people move on with their life. Can you can you get through that situation absolutely so once you realize that, hey, at the end of the day, this isn't life or death, this is something you can live through, then then you go for it. And in my three step approaches, number one is work hard. I don't think that Greg. I don't think there's any substitute or hack for working hard. I've always just been the guy like in baseball. When I first got to Arizona State, I had to compete against a bunch of other first basemen. I just outworked everybody. I was the first guy on the field. I was the last guy to leave. Number two is focus and deliberate focus, which I like to refer to as deliberate practice. You know, it's, it's really easy. If something's tough to get, to procrastinate, to look at your Instagram, to maybe, you know, lean towards something that's easier. But if you're struggling with something, put it into deliberate practice and and get the repetitions in, you know, put in the work, get the repetition in, and just make progress in that one specific area, and then move to another area and focus on that. And once you've worked hard, you put in a deliberate practice. And whether you're stepping into the box to face a guy throwing 90 miles an hour for you baseball fans, or you're leading a team for the first time, or you're giving that presentation, then it's time to learn and let go. You've put in the effort. You've focused on your practice, stop thinking about things and just give it your best shot. Now you may crush it. You may fall flat on your face, but either way, Greg, you should pat yourself on the back for getting out of your comfort zone and trying, because so many people are just afraid to even try and pass up opportunities, and if you fail, or if you do mediocre, ask for feedback, because that's where you really learn and then get better. But don't not do something because you're you're afraid of what other people are going to think, or you're so scared of failure that if it's something you could survive, like we've spoken about, then go for it and give yourself a little pack on pat on the back that you actually stuck your NUCCA out there. Because not everybody does that. That's my three step. I
Greg Voisen
like your I like your three step approach. And I think with anything you know, as you said, Work hard, be persistent, have grit, have that growth mindset, all of those things which we know, but the inherent default mechanism for a lot of people is just, well to fall back. It's almost like taking one of your courses. You know, you can procrastinate, procrastinate, procrastinate, and then after you get it done, you have this sense of achievement, this great sense of feeling you've really got to get into it. And that brings me to this, you know, you've been running learn it now for like, two decades, three, okay, maybe the, maybe the books that holds. So the question is, is, how have you seen the landscape of learning and development change? Because there's so many platforms, right? It's just like plethora of places that you can go, and particularly with the rise now of automation and AI, where are you kind of seeing this? What is on the horizon for learn it? For Damon, you know, I'm sure our listeners would love to know, yeah,
I would say there's automation, right? I mean, there's AI, the landscapes changing the also, what's great, I think Greg, is, there's so many different generations in the workforce these days. There's six or seven generations, and the younger generations, the Gen ZS and millennials, they really demand professional development opportunity, which ties right back to what learn it does. And so that's amazing for us, because organizations now more than ever realize that if they're going to keep top talent, they're going to need to give them the opportunity to grow and evolve, both in their career, but also in their in their personal lives. And so I would say that where things are going, you know, we do mostly live virtual training, you know, kind of like what we're talking about here. We're on Zoom, and we do breakout rooms, but going and taking a two hour class from learn it if that's where your if that's where your education stops. You know, it's very hard to retain content and information, so it's more than just a two hour session. So what we're doing is we're layering it in with micro learning, little AI coaching, and that's really where we've invested heavily in, is some of the I don't think that AI is going to replace live learning. I think it's it's going to be a great supplement. And if, if you're and it gives people other opportunities on how they like to learn as well. I'm a big believer that everybody kind of learns differently. Some people want to learn by listening to podcasts. Some people want to take classes. Some people want to read books. Some people want to do all the above. So I think it's important as a learning organization like learn it is, is that we have, like a holistic approach, where our main focus is, is a live learning, but we supplement it to help give them, like milestones or learning opportunities, to help drive the stickiness, the retention, as they develop into their, you know, into their roles and their careers, to pick up the skills that they need.
Greg Voisen
Yeah, I like the approach that you're taking. And you know, it's, I remember going back and when I actually used to teach Dale Carnegie live classes, right? That's awesome, yeah? Communication class, yeah, yeah. I had a guy that brought me into the financial services business that you will not only take the course, you will teach the course. And Michael Crum, as a result, the grandson of Dale Carnegie, became a really good friend, and still is. He lives on the east coast. But this was the point I was going to make. The whole space repetition learning, giving people time to actually learn what they learn in class and then practice it in the real world is so invaluable. It's just like I remember this this day, because I'm going back 3040, years in those Dale Carnegie classes, they were using that then to actually, okay, here's the lesson for the week. Now you're going to come back and you're going to give us the results of what actually happened in the application to that lesson. And I think it's invaluable. And you know, you in the book, you mentioned how the role of leaders is evolving, and we're talking about it right now, as technology takes over, more of these routine tasks, so obviously less to do sometimes, although it doesn't seem like that, I think the world seems like we're being more is piled on and more is expected of us. What skills should leaders focus on developing? And kind of, as you see it, this new landscape that we're in regarding learning. Because everywhere you go now, I just saw something that, I think it was Phoenix University, get your degree in like nine months or something. So when you look at the space speed at which they've, like, moved that up. I, you know, I saw that end, it was like, wow. It used to take two years to be able to get degree. Now you're telling people they can do it in nine months. Well, it
took some of us seven years. Yeah. Well, one thing I like to say is, you know, I've, my book's called the learn it all leader. And you know, some people are like, Well, is it just learning all the time? Absolutely not. It's something that you said, Greg, which is so important. I want your listeners to think about, whether you're reading, taking classes or listening to this podcast. A great quote that gentleman had told me escapes my mind, but it's learning without doing is treason, right? So you have to put into practice, whether you know, whether at the office or whether at home. But you can't just keep reading and taking classes and not doing any of the work. You need to put it into practice. And so I challenge you, you know, when you listen to Greg's show or you read a book, Think about something that you're going to take away from this interview or a different interview and actually put into practice and maybe even take a couple of notes or journal and track that right? So learning without doing is treason. Now, to answer your question, I look at AI as helping to automate some of the tasks or shorten the time it takes to do things. And so what it should do is, well, first of all, if you're somebody who's got your head in the sand and you're not going to learn how to use chat, GPT or some of these other tools, well you're going to be left behind. Because I don't really necessarily know if AI by itself is going to take over your job, but individuals who become power users in AI will take over your job. And the value I believe in these tools for your team members. The way I look at it is if, and I talk about it in my book, this woman came to me and says, like, is my job going to be automated out? I said, No, what it's going to do is it's going to buy back four hours, maybe a week or more, of your time, and it's going to give you an opportunity to do higher level, level things, to think, to ask better questions, to look at how we can evolve and make learn it better. So that's the way I think AI should be used. You know, enhancing, enhancing and the skills that you know, your original question, what skills do people need? What we're seeing out there, which I'm so fortunate, I gotta see behind the curtains with all these great companies, are adaptability. You need people who could be adaptable. Crystal, clear communication. Now more than ever, it's important to be able to communicate well and to be able to build trust as a leader. And in my opinion, the number one skill, and we kind of talked about this, is learning agility, the ability to know how to learn and even unlearn. You know, get rid of some of the stuff that you've learned before and replace it, you know, with with new new stuff. So a lot of times when we're working with companies, it's one thing to learn these skills. It's another thing to build a culture of learning where people are constantly curious, that they're active listening, that they're trying things, that they're iterating and they're changing. So I really think that learning agility from a leadership perspective, but you know, permeate throughout the organization is absolutely critical today and moving forward in the future
Greg Voisen
and and I'd resonate with all of that, because obviously both of us is doing a podcast show, and we come across a lot of very knowledgeable people who are accelerating the speed at which people learn. One young gentleman, I'm going to bring up his name, Scott Young. And he wrote the book called Ultra learning. And while you were speaking, I was there, he just wrote another one and did a podcast on get better at anything. 12 maxims for mastery. Now I happen to have been old enough to actually sit with George Leonard, who wrote the first book on mastery in his living room in Palo Alto. And it wasn't Palo Alto, it was right near you. Is there in timber on right? Yep. And and George wrote this book on mastery, and it's interesting, when you're going to master something, the the steps in the process, do you have the Damon mastery kind of theory about learning? Because what Scott does is he takes something very difficult and then he learns it really fast, and then he shows you how you can do it right. And I think that's what learn. It does to a degree. It's like, hey, I can take this one course and I can master this particular particular subject, anything from Scott, anything from you, Damon, or learn it that you would like to tell our listeners about mastery? Yeah,
so for me, what I've seen that's really helped when I really want to learn something, what I do is I, first of all, when I'm learning it, I take a lot of notes and but also I find ways I think about how it relates to my work at learn it, or the work I do with coaching individuals, or whatever it is, right? So I connect it to a real world situation. But listeners out there, I think this is key, especially if you lead a team, teach it back to them. Teaching it back, I think it helps you with the it helps you with your attention, and also, at the same time, you're sharing this knowledge with others, and you're getting their perspective on things. So to me, that that's what I I'm kind of lucky, because, you know, we want to, you know, lead by example. Here at learn it. So we do a lot of internal book clubs, or we watch master classes, and a lot of times, Greg, I lead those. I'll go through, I'll read the book, and then I'll, I'll teach it back to our team, and it enhances my retention, and it also helps my team. But I always ask them, I say, when we go through this content, I want you to give it me. I want you to come to me with an example of how you could apply what we're talking about, either in your personal life or to learn it. Now, one other thing I want to say about learning you know, for the if, if you lead a team, or if you don't, doesn't matter, is all your learning shouldn't just be constantly about your job or your work. I think it's really critical to learn broadly, learn different topics. You know, we have like, a stipend for our employees here at learn it, and I let them take classes and whatever they want, right? It doesn't have to be applicable just to learn it. I just want to get again, to get them back in the habit of learning and hopefully retaining and accelerating their growth.
Greg Voisen
Well, as you speak about this, and we've been speaking about the role of technology and how it's almost kind of becoming embedded in so much of what we do. And I have an upcoming interview with tego fuerte, the guy who talks about the second brain. As a matter of fact, he's got a new book coming out in December. What do you think of all of this second brain with being able to use the digital world to keep track of all of our information and be able to have it at our fingertips through these amazing AI note taking apps, which can literally recall almost anything for us, obviously allowing us to do a lot more in a shorter period of time, and able to access that information at our fingertips. I think the whole concept of the, what he calls the P, A, R, A, methodology, is really fascinates me. And I'm wondering what you guys think at learned about all of this, because we all seem to think we need a second brain at this point, because this Front's pretty full
Well, I would say, you know, first of all, there's so much out there that I that you got to kind of cut through a lot of the chaos and just to figure out there's so many AI tools out there. So many of them don't work, but a lot of them do. So I think a great job would be just to have somebody on your team who, that's all they do is they go out and evaluate tools that you know, maybe not the full time job, but they can leverage within your organization. I think that a lot of these tools are awesome, but what I also think is very important is that you still have to, you still have to think, you know, you can't let, you can't let chat GPT or these tools do all the thinking for you, right? So you can't get into that habit now, kind of like you mentioned. I can't remember the name of the tool right now, but I read most of my books these days on Kindles, and I do that because I highlight it's called readwise. What I use? Yeah, readwise, yeah, yeah, readwise. And I love it. So I highlight sections, and then what it does is it prompts me, like, five to seven of my highlights a day. And so I take 510 minutes a day, and I just read those, right? And so, because it helps again, it helps with the retention. So in this situation, that's an example of leveraging, I think the the new tools successfully, right? You know it is.
Greg Voisen
And I mean, when people take your courses, I know it's synchronistic, but is that course then made available, asynchronistic for them to pull the data and or is something like otter AI attached to that to keep the notes? What is it that you're doing there that if I say, Hey, I'm going to spend X on a course, and I want to take it, but I Okay, I passed the course, but now I need to recall something from it. How are you giving us this ability to recall?
You know, that's a great question, and that's a debate we always have, because I'm all about recording the classes and giving people the content. You know, afterwards, in some classes, we don't. A lot of the leadership classes, we don't, we don't actually do that because we've found that people don't want to share freely in those classes, if, if maybe their leader has access to them afterwards, you know. Okay, but some organizations want us to record them, and then we do, and we give them the transcripts and everything. They're all footage they could chop up. What we tend to do is we take our classes and we record them asynchronously, and so that if you take classes that learn it, you have access to a library of content where, let's say you take our giving and receiving feedback class, and six months later, you kind of forget our for growth model. That's the model we've developed. Well, you can go in, you can log into your portal, Greg, and you can watch a like a seven minute video on what the go for growth model is, boom, right before your conversation. So it's there
Greg Voisen
so again. And sometimes we need that recall, you know, it always needed that we're, how do you want to say, you know, yes, the How are neural pathways? Wire and fire is interesting, but I think it's like people say, Hey, Greg, you're like, 70 years old now. And do you recall this? And the question is, it's like, the more you put into the hard drive, like, like a computer, the more challenging it becomes for, literally, you to, like, say, okay, you've the lights come on, you know, like, when you have, I have a max sitting here in front of me, and it'll say, Oh, you're using up more memory than you've actually got, right? So the reality is the memory and then the recall. And the way I look at that is that's really important being able to access that memory and recall from someplace, like, like, just for instance, Google Drive. Like, who doesn't use, you know, so many of these storage systems to say, oh, now I'm going to recall, and then you got to go, oh. But do I have a Dewey Decimal System to really figure out where I put that on Google
Drive on that one? Yeah, because it's
Greg Voisen
like, oh, yeah, okay. No, it's in there. I know I saved it in there. Oh,
so frustrating.
Greg Voisen
How did I actually find it? Well, look, you know, staying in this realm of questioning, you emphasize the importance of creating a compelling vision for teams, and I think it's so important. I've done so much of this work. How can leaders inspire their teams to go in and fully commit to the vision that a company is trying to achieve? I recall this story real quickly, because when guy, Kawasaki was on here, and he sat with Steve Jobs, and he tells this story to draw people in to the book, and he said, Hey, I was sitting there in a meeting. We're doing that campaign, and everybody thought that Microsoft was going to beat up on Apple, and the Apple was going to go, this is in the 90s, like 1998 right? They started that campaign with Albert Einstein. You remember it? Right? Yeah. And there were a couple an ad came out, and here's what he said, because you'll relate to this about fine for a vision, right? This is where this question's going to so they're sitting in this room, the ad guys there, and he has two copies of the ad. He says to Steve, Well, I'm going to give one to you, and I give one to guy. And Steve Jobs says, No, you're not. You're going to give them both to me. And I don't know if you've heard this story. Have you heard this?
No, no, I haven't. This is good enough. So, so,
Greg Voisen
so Guy Kawasaki, was like, Wait a second, I'm an evangelist for Apple. I should be able to get this ad. And he's, is really mad at Steve, right? And he goes, Hey, Steve, why don't you want me to have a copy of that? And he said, Don't you trust me? And Steve says to him, No, I don't trust you, guy. And at that moment, guy says, and during the interview with me, because we've interviewed several times, he said I had to stand up for myself, and they didn't know what the repercussion was going to be. And he said, but Steve, I don't trust you either. Right? That he said, statement custom 10s of millions of dollars. So the point there, though, was about a vision. Okay, so here's the point. Here's this company that's potentially going down the tubes comes up in the advertising campaign. The vision is, is to put this on every desk, right? Just like Microsoft wanted to do, the same thing was put a computer on every desk, but there, as you know, their thing was all about learning, right? So when they used Amelia Earhart, they used Albert Einstein, the Mac was supposed to make you you know better, knowledgeable person, that kind of thing. And obviously it worked, right? It worked really good, because here, here we all are. And so when you really look at learn it, and you look at that story, and you look at the vision that Steve Jobs had for what he had to pull that company together to get it. I mean, at the time they were close to bankruptcy, what I understand, amazing vision. So my go back to your question. You know, when someone has a vision. There has to be inclusion. Now, at that moment in the room, there wasn't much inclusion going on. It was egos fighting one another, and I think you got to remove egos for vision to be met. What's your feeling about that? Damon,
well, I think what you said right there, Greg, first of all, thanks for sharing that story. That's an awesome story. I wonder how guy would have done it differently if I take a chance. So I think the key word you said in there is inclusion. Now I think if you're a leader of an organ, if you're a leader of an organization, a sports team, a family, you have to have your company vision, right, and your goals, but if you want people to get behind it, they've, they've got to be bought into that, because it's gotta, it's gotta be in tune, in aligned with their aspirations, their goals, they have. They have to see how it connects, how their personal goals, I think, connects to the to the vision of the organization. And then, if that happens, right? If so, if my aspirations connects with what learned its goals are. And it can't be all just about profit. It has to be out purpose too. People, especially the younger generations, they want to feel like they belong and they they're part of something that's contributing. And that's why I've always, I've been always so fortunate at learn it to have a great culture is because my team knows that Sure, we might be helping companies, you know, their bottom lines, but what we're really doing is we're helping the individuals in those companies get better, and whether it's getting a promotion internally or becoming more confident as a human being, so they're bought into The purpose of what learn its vision is. And then it all comes back to this vision, connecting it to storytelling. I think that if you want to get your vision across, you got to communicate it, and communicate it often and be very clear about it. And hopefully you can, you can get better at and be good at storytelling and telling your vision through stories, because that's where I think people can really connect to your company vision if they believe
Greg Voisen
that is so true. And the reason I told that story about Guy Kawasaki is because it exemplifies when people start to tell a story, other people listen because they're looking for the wisdom that comes out of the story, whatever it might be, and in kind of drawing our podcast to a conclusion here, I know we're we're looking always through the front of the window of the car versus the back. So it's looking to the future. You've been here 30 years now with learnit guiding and directing this company, growing this company, not without having made mistakes. I guarantee you plenty of mistakes. Mistakes. What are some of the key challenges you see for leaders who are outside of your company and even the leaders inside your company and how they can adapt to this. Learn it all mindset to help them navigate those challenges, versus the know it all. Mindset, no. In other words, I love the whole learn it all. And now what? What is that going to help the leaders out there that you're speaking to, or how is that going to help? Yeah,
well, I think first and foremost, we're leading in a pretty chaotic time. There's a lot of uncertainty, there's a lot of complexity, there's six different generations going on, and there's AI and everything. And I think what leaders need to do is, first of all, you got to retain your great talent and take care of your people, and to do that, help work with them, to develop their skills and give them the space and time to be able to do it. What we see a lot of our leaders are struggling with is just Greg. There's just so many different priorities going on that a lot of times that they lose sight of what's important, you know, for their for their team members, and they're not carving out the space to allow them to continue to learn and grow. And even in a tough labor market like right now, great talent will still leave, and if you can't nurture, maintain and evolve great talent. I really believe that companies grow because their people grow, and so you have to take care of your people. And we work with a lot of companies who say middle managers are stretched so thin, where they need more support and they need some time and breathing room where they can help upskill themselves and reskill themselves to be able to be successful in today's day and age. And so I think sometimes you just gotta slow down, reflect for a second there, and think about, what can we do to take care of the middle of our organization, where a lot of the work really happens to make sure that these people have the tools, resources and time to be successful?
Greg Voisen
Well, you you basically said it all. And for my listeners, this is the book, but go out and get a copy of this book. Okay? The other thing is, we'll put a link to Amazon to that. We'll also put a link to learn it.com which is where you can actually go to find out more information about the company, the resources, the courses, and I'm going to highly recommend that everybody who's listening today who wants to take either skill based course, or, as he said and you were doing courses, live with people directing those courses a way for your company to actually benefit very intently from the work of key experts, right? I'm going to call them experts, but key leaders in the area, or thought leaders in the area, learn it would be a place to go. So go check it out. Check out the subscription to the courses that are there when you go to the website, which I'm there right now. You'll find the classes just by there. You can go to soft skills, business applications classes by skill learning, lab cohorts and On Demand training. That's all there for you to do it. The learn it team is right there for you to take a check out at and look at the overview of it as well. As you can see by his website, a lot of companies are using learn it, including Kaiser Permanente, Visa, San Francisco Travel Association, just tons into it. They're all using it. Dole, you got a lot of great logos up there, my friend.
Hey, thanks, Greg. And here's one thing I want to say for your listeners, if you connect with me on LinkedIn or email me and tell me that you found me on Greg's show, I will send you a code to a free $250 class, whether it's Excel or emotional intelligence. You know, Greg's been so kind to go through and talk a lot about learn it, but that's my gift for you, for listening, is please reach out and I will send you a code for the class. All I ask is that you send me a little feedback afterwards, let me know how your experience is. But I'd love for you the opportunity to experience learn it.
Greg Voisen
What a great offer. And there's soft skills there, everything from communication to wellness and health to personal development, they're all there, so definitely check out the website, a plethora of knowledge, as they say, and wisdom. So Damon, thanks for being on inside personal growth, sharing some of your personal story as well as some of the stories that you around actually learning, which I love, and I think this has been a wonderful session for people to take in some of your wisdom and learn more about your company, you and your book. Thanks so much.
Well, it's been an honor to be here, and I had a great time with you. So Thanks, Greg.
Greg Voisen
All right, take care. Bye, Damon
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Inside Personal Growth with Greg Voisen · Podcast 1171: CREATING YOUR LIMITLESS LIFE: …On Your TermsIn the latest episode of Inside Personal Growth, we had the pleasure of hosting Paul Rivera and Esther Zeledon, a dynamic duo dedicated to helping individuals redefine success and pursue a limitless life. Broadcasting from the Dominican Republic, the couple shared their insights on overcoming societal definitions of success to create a life filled with purpose and personal fulfillment.
Redefining the American DreamPaul and Esther challenge the traditional American Dream, which is often tied to specific milestones like marriage, homeownership, and career advancement. They advocate for a more personalized approach to success, where individuals define their own metrics based on personal desires and values. This concept is brilliantly outlined in their book, Creating Your Limitless Life: …On Your Terms, which encourages readers to pursue their unique paths. The book is available for purchase on Amazon.
Building a Legacy of ImpactWith backgrounds in international diplomacy, economics, and life coaching, Paul and Esther bring a rich perspective to the personal growth arena. They discussed how cultural and societal pressures can limit one’s potential and shared their strategies for overcoming these barriers. Their work, documented through various charts and stories in their book, provides a roadmap for anyone looking to escape the constraints of conventional success and achieve a truly limitless life.
The Power of Personal AlignmentDuring the podcast, the couple emphasized the importance of aligning one’s life with their true passions and values. They shared personal anecdotes about their journeys, highlighting the shifts they made from high-stress careers to more fulfilling paths that align with their personal missions.
For those eager to learn more about Paul and Esther’s work and to access additional resources, visit their website at BeActChange.com. You can also connect with Esther on LinkedIn and follow their updates on Instagram and Facebook.
ConclusionPaul Rivera and Esther Zeledon’s discussion is a testament to the power of redefining success on your own terms. Their stories and strategies offer invaluable insights for anyone looking to navigate the complexities of personal growth and achieve a life that truly reflects their deepest desires and values.
You may also refer to the transcripts below for the full transciption (not edited) of the interview.
Interview Transcipt -Not EditedEmailDownloadNew TabGreg Voisen
Welcome back to Inside personal growth. This is Greg voisen, the host of inside personal growth, and joining us from the Dominican Republic. I just realized they weren't in Miami, which is what it says on their LinkedIn profile. Is Paul Rivera and Esther? I don't want to mispronounce your last name, but it sounds like zeldon. Yeah, pretty close. Well, there's an accent mark over the O, so zeldon. And if you guys look at this book and we'll be showing this on a screen that pops up as well. It says chasing the American dream, and it's all crossed out. It's creating your limitless life. I think that's really important for my listeners to understand. And I'm going to let our listeners know just a tad bit about you guys, because I always like to open up and and give them, you know, some perspective of who it is we're talking to. So Esther, you say on the back of your book here that you are a master in making a dreams work, your pioneering work, pioneering work as an international diplomat, scientist and life coach, has proven to work for people of all cultures and across communities, corporations and countries as you're known. Dr EZ has created a powerful formula for balanced success and brilliant productivity that everyone can use to create their limitless life well. And the website that for my listeners, you want to go to is be act change com. It's really a fascinating website, and it's a great place for you to go to learn more about both of them, because they're you are husband and wife. Is that correct? Okay, even though different last names. But Paul Rivera, PhD, if you go to there, we'll put a link to his LinkedIn profile. He's got a very interesting background, as does Esther, but he's a strategic planet planner, expert, facilitator, international economist, widely recognized for his visionary leadership and guiding organizational change toward purpose driven and sustainable impact with deep, deep expertise in complex and high threat international environments. He has a degree from USC, University of Southern California. He's also fluent English, Spanish, French and Portuguese, and his PhD is in economics. We were just talking about that. There's a few graphs and charts on the book for listeners. If you get whoop I hold up the back of the book. I'm sorry that they literally can get into well, it's a pleasure having you guys finally on the show. I know it took us a while to get all this scheduled and pull it together, but thanks for your persistence here. Now, when authors write a book, and in this case, Esther, it was you, but you know you were being influenced by your husband. I'm sure what inspired you to write, creating your limitless life, and what was the turning point that kind of led you to develop the concept of what you're calling the limitless life? Because in the personal growth world. You know, we hear these buzzwords thrown around all the time, right? It's not unusual to have something like that said. What was it for you guys that you you crossed out chasing the American dream and living the limitless life, because you're joining us from the Dominican Republican so I think that maybe that's part of crossing out the American dream. Am I right or wrong? Well, it's,
Paul Rivera
I mean, sort of for us. It is for us. And I think that's, that's the whole point of the title, right? It's your limitless life, whatever that is, right? So that's why I crossed out the American dream, because the American dream, because the American Dream has a set, very set definition. It's get married by a certain age. It's very metric driven. Buy a house by a certain time. Get married, have two children. You should you should receive a certain title by a certain age, by that's a lot of the societal conversations, right, that go in with family society, right? Why aren't you married? Why aren't you this? Why don't you have your house, where's your promotion? And the thing is that not everyone wants the American dream, and that's something that we discovered, right? Like we had all the American Dream metrics, but that was not our legacy, and that is not what the impact we wanted to leave behind. Now we're not saying that your legacy, your limitless life, may include right components of the American dream, but the American Dream is still very limited, right? It's based on these metrics, these milestones, rather than right, the feeling and impact, right? You want to leave behind, but we celebrate when we have a celebration of life, right? It stops there, rather than being expansive. And then you ask that really curious question, like, why limitless? Because the way we see is like, the the those metrics, or that's what's limiting, right? Those are all the limiting beliefs that that's as far as you can go, or that's what you should do. And limitless makes it like it can be, whatever it is, whatever comment.
Greg Voisen
Can you comment for me? Then Esther and or you Paul? Yeah. You know, one of the things that, after 17 years of doing this show and 11 170 podcasts, you know, I've heard so much around the personal growth space, yeah? So we have fear and we have love, yep. Now if you're loving yourself, you're doing exactly what you're talking about, which is living this limitless life. Yeah, but when you have fear, and we all have fear, fear holds us back from having a limitless life. Can either of you comment how you overcame some of your own fears and apprehensions to have a limitless life so that my listeners can understand what it is that you did and how your perspective changed. Yeah,
Paul Rivera
absolutely. And I think this ties into your question, so why we wrote the book? Right? So I think, like the it's the book that I needed when I was in my 20s. And I'll let Paul chime in too, because I really had that fear, one that I anything like that I could only get so far. I had fear, even when I got those metrics, that fear of losing it all. So right, if I, if I, when I was in that position, right, where we had all the metrics, but I felt that I had this bigger calling and this more love to give in the world. I love how you use love. I had the fear of, I can't pivot, I can't change. I can't do something like that. Because when I come our stories is, you know, I was born in Nicaragua, immigrant family, right? Like, scarcity was that mindset, right? Like, oh, we can lose everything. We're gonna lose everything again. And I also had the added story of a two years old, you know, I had three weeks to live, and then my dad won the lottery and saved my life. But then we go back, and there's Civil War, and then we had to immigrate, and then my parents had to take service jobs. So I grew up with my purpose being only of establishing financial stability for the family. And so when, when, when I received financial stability, right? That's when that fear comes in, is that I have to stay in this fear because I can't go back to being survival mode or not having any more money again, or doing that. But that, that calling that thing, of wanting more impact, more feeling, of finding that alignment was stronger than that. And I think that when you talk about how we did it, is, first, I had to, like, unlearn all those limiting beliefs, and a lot of them were cultural, societal, right? It was like, one that's not for you. Second, you already achieved. You should be grateful. Going after that is selfish. You're going to hurt your family by doing that and your children, right? And it was like all these ingrained and and some of them are from the Latino culture, but a lot of them we've seen through all of our work are cross cultural. They're global. And
Greg Voisen
you, you know, start, pardon me for interrupting, but I'm sitting here seeing the economist on the other side, and I think there's probably some individuals out there that when money economy changes and people shift, the fear shifts, because it's, it's a, actually a consciousness shift. So, you know, you Paul, having studied economics, you understand, you know, when the Feds lower the rate by a quarter point or half a point, you maybe see a little bit rise in the stock market. Can you comment on not only the mechanics of it, but literally, how it affects us psychologically and emotionally, so that we actually either stop or put our dreams on hold?
I think that's a big part of how that that line of questioning, is how we got to sort of the crossing out, the chasing the American dream, because it puts us on this path of volatility in a lot of ways, and that's one of the and when we think about risk, when we think about losing it all, it's about volatility, right? It's about that, those shock waves that hit us up and down, whether it's life, whether it's the economy, whether it's a massive hurricane coming in your direction, you know, those are the things that cause us to take a step back and say, I think I need to put a pause on this, because it right now, it's too risky right now, it's too I can't put at risk everything that I have built, everything that I've worked for my whole life. And so the thing is that there's always going to be something like that appearing in your life. There's always something that you can mentally create that risk scenario that wants to push you back into that safety zone. And the problem with the safety zone you talk you mentioned the the mental health aspects of it, once you are in that space where what you learn to value is your perception of safety and your title and your position and the the wealth and the money itself, it's something That's detached now from your sense of purpose, your uniqueness in the world. And the problem is that once you have sacrificed that uniqueness to to that fear, you begin to lose a little bit of yourself each time you begin to stray a little further from that path that is authentic to you, that is meaningful to you, that is the way in which you leave your legacy in the world. So, you know, years ago, I was in a position, when I was leaving my diplomatic job. I we were both US diplomats, and we were serving overseas, and I was in a position of wanting to leave that that job. And it was, it was going to be the first time in my life, since the age of 14, that I would have left a job, quit a job without having another job lined up. And I mean, it was the ultimate risky thing. I have four children, you know, and all of this and so much responsibility. And Esther told me every day, quit that job, quit your job, quit your job, quit your job, and it's a really hard position to get to. So we took a trip. One time, she was on a work trip, and I accompanied her to Panama, and we met this gentleman who knew nothing about us. We hadn't shared our story with him. Our situation, really fascinating guy, and it happened to be my birthday, and he started sharing a story with us, and he gets real quiet all of a sudden, and he says, You know what I've learned in my life? He said, I've made millions and I've lost millions. I've done great things. I've had really hard days. He said, If you have the skills, if you have the knowledge, if you have the experience, the only risk is not taking the leap. And it was amazing. It was, it was what I needed to hear in that moment. You know, it was, it was a very sort of cosmic, spiritual, almost, kind of an encounter with Him, because He something in him spoke to me in a way that I really needed in that moment. And it's something he
Greg Voisen
was speaking to you, having the confidence in yourself, right? And I think, you know, look, we, all of us, and I'm going to get to this alignment factor in a minute here. You know, Jordan Peterson, the professor from Canada, which you guys probably know, you know, he talks about that everybody has a contract with the future, but they have to look at the sacrifices in the present. Now, I did a book last year with mountain climbers that climbed all the highest seven summits in the world. And you look at fear. You know, the fear of dying on top of Everest, the fear of having something happen to you. We all have those fears. So my situation to you is, how do you guys shift your perspective? How did you shift your perspective about the security, you know, Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs says, you know, home, safety, family, move up the ladder and go to the top. Words, actualization. Self actualization is the highest top of every realm. And every psychologist in the world talks about the lines and levels, including, I just did a podcast with Ken Wilber, right? And the reality is, is that we still inherently, because of the way our, you know, I call them, a million brains are actually created, and the way they fire, we still go there? Is there some ways that you could tell people how not to allow that brain to fire that way mechanically, because it just wants to go there?
Paul Rivera
Yeah, absolutely. And I think this goes ties into the the conversation you were saying about confidence, right? It's also like, since we've tied all value, and this is also goes back to the chiefs and American dreams. So we title value in society, that your worth is only by your title and what you produce, right? You become really tied that that's the only thing I can do, or that's, that's, that's where I'm limited, right? So a lot of the the work in the book is that we each have a unique way of solving problems that we've used since we were seven, right? And we call like, you know, how you solve problems, your how to there's different as you submit different phrases. You can explain that. So when we do these exercises of like, if you had, we could even do it here, if you had ten billion you chose a global problem, and then you explain, let's say you got that money. Let's, let's do it right now. If you had 10, $20 billion what would you do? What problem would
Greg Voisen
you I would work on the issue? You know, I've been watching a lot of Bill Gates lately just to see what he actually is doing. So environmental problems, malaria, diarrhea, all the issues that have killed now, we've seen the decrease in infant mortality go down in many countries, right? But I would work on a lot of the problems here, at home, homelessness, right? Shelter for people that are harmless. I have a charity called compassion and communications. That's what we do. So I don't have 10 billion, but I have been applying what I've been getting to that issue, and I'm not certain I would change that, although I would add an element to that, and that is, I'm very much, let's just say it socially responsible person reinvest. I would be putting money from the nonprofit into areas that are going to solve many of our global warming issues and other issues as well, which are basically causing this catastrophic issue that we're having with the with the weather, yeah, in all California, fires, Florida, floods, hurricanes, all this kind of stuff. You can't say that this isn't unprecedented. It is, you know. And so that's what I
Paul Rivera
would do. Okay, great. So if they gave you the money. So what I'm hearing, right, if you had the money, what would be the three to five steps you would do with that money? So I heard a little bit in the order you would do it. So I heard a little bit from there, right? I heard you would invest in other causes and other linked causes that affect the larger system. I also heard you would start with a local issue at home. What else would there be or like, or would there be something that would go first in your plan,
Greg Voisen
you know, really the homelessness situation in Southern California, okay? That would be my first attack. I mean, it's a huge problem, okay?
Paul Rivera
And then so you would first attack that. And then what else would you do with the money?
Greg Voisen
You know, I think even go, I mean, look at the on the same realm feeding people, including the issues associated with school lunch programs and all the other kind of areas we have. So I'm going down to the basics levels, right? Is where that I could put that money. And then as I go up, I'm saying, how the next level, then Esther would be that environmental issues.
Paul Rivera
Okay, amazing, right? So what I'm hearing from your health too, right? And we would, we would together then do other problems to see if you would take the same approach, personal, professional. What I hear is, first you're like, let's look at the root causes of the issue. Let's make sure that we are low hanging fruit, right? So taking it from like, survival crisis to a place where it's like stable, and then from there, then we could start adding on, right? So I assume, like, if someone came to you and asked you for another problem, let's say they were, they had, I don't know, they were in debt, right? I wonder if, like you're, would it be the same process that you would say, Okay, let's set first. Let's do some baby steps. Let's get you, let's get that debt under control. And then from there, then we can start looking at
Greg Voisen
laughing, because I have a son that just came to me and explained amounts of debt with the IRS, and has asked me to bail him out, you know, so you must have been reading my mind or jump on some energy or something. How have I approached it? I've literally taken this a step at a time. I haven't rushed into it. I think anything economically, you've got to look at all the factors, including maybe telling him he should go bankrupt, because it is quite a bit of debt, right? But he's getting married and he's having a baby in December, and he doesn't want to do that, so he's come to me, and it's not a small sum of money, it's actually it's quite a lot of money. So it's a very interesting question that you post, yeah, but I want to get
Paul Rivera
what I wanted to circle back, right, okay, quickly. So
Greg Voisen
I don't know how to I don't really know how to approach that one. I'm kind of looking for some I actually woke up. I wake up every morning now, since it's been proposed to me for a sign, or a symbol, or a sign from God to tell me what I really should, yeah, but I like, I'm being honest.
Paul Rivera
Have you even said it to me right now is that you take the you look at how it connects to everything in step by step, right? And so how you answered the first question, how you answered this one, very similar, right? And then if you texted people back in your life and asked them how I impacted them and when, right, they would tell you similar things, like what you just said, right now, you helped me look at how it's connected to everything. You took time to make that decision. You had me evaluate, take a step by step approach. Sometimes don't like
Greg Voisen
that. I do that, but Right? But it's needed. That is what I do, yeah, but
Paul Rivera
that's your superpower, right? And I think part of like you were saying about building that confidence is and I think you this whole links to it. How we figure it out, how we help other people, is realizing that they've had this superpower throughout their whole life, personal and professionally. So there is no risk. And it ties back to, like Paul's quote, because anything that you pivot to, you can just bring that superpower to that space, right? So even, like, we help people do interviews and and do pitch decks for money. It's really
Greg Voisen
well what you say is so important, and I think so. Look, I don't say that people go out. A lot of people do because they're not mature emotionally. So they make really emotional decisions, and they do things like buying stuff they don't need and doing stuff like that, right? But my point is, is that, logically speaking, I've learned over many, many years to be almost like Paul and, you know, The Economist like, okay, there's this account this. How do I do this? How would I work this? What's the best strategic move? Are there tax advantages of this? I mean, I'm wearing at every different angle. And I think the more data you have, and this is where I'm going with data, if you have enough data points, it makes you confident to make a decision Exactly. If you don't have the proper data points, you can't make the decision. You feel lost, so you're seeking to find that So Paul, any anything about getting that data completely.
But there has to be two sides to that. As the as an economist, I can tell you that there's the infinite potential to never stop searching for the data, and they're never actually make a decision, right? That that decision paralysis, the analysis paralysis, is super, super real, especially overthinking, especially when people are unsure of what their superpower is, of what it is that that their value is. You know, that's, well,
Greg Voisen
speak to me about intuition then, because I wrote a book on intuition, yeah, yeah. I mean, at some point you've got to listen to your gut about what it is that you're supposed to do.
We speak a lot to to Latino to black and brown communities, and it's one of, it's one of the spaces where the whole concept of listening to your intuition has not really become part of the cultural parlance. You know, when we we actually had a conversation with with James Redfield, not that long ago, you know, who wrote the Celestine and in his mind, this, that whole concept of listening to your intuition and everything that he proposes, he almost saw it as it's been done already. And we came out of that conversation going absolutely not in our communities. It's not
Paul Rivera
something we're still stuck in the 80s, 90s of his book. So, yeah, yeah. So, so for
me, for example, learning to listen to that inner voice. And for me, what has been transformational for me in that realm has been breath work. I've tried lots of other things, somatic breathing, yeah, exactly. And yeah, it's
Greg Voisen
Well, I think that the key is, is we take our breath for granted every day. Yes, cold plunges, somatic, breathing, saunas, whatever it is, the workouts, yoga, meditation. I live here in Encinitas, and I'm a member of self realization fellowship, So meditation is a very big part of my practice. But I think this comes to really people understanding in this book, you mentioned, people will defer their dreams, we just said this a minute ago, and feel misaligned. Okay? And there's so many people that do that all their life, until they go to their grave. Yeah, so how can someone recognize the signs of misalignment? I think I know what many of them are, you're stressed, you're anxious, you're this, you're that, you're you're constantly your brain is turning and churning and trying to figure out solutions. What are, what did you guys find for you were those misalignments? And in the second part of the question is, what is the purpose sun? Yeah, you know. So, I mean, because if you don't have the purpose defined, this is all going to be kind of worthless. Yeah. So who wants to feel that you? So
I'll take the first one the I think for both of us, one of the biggest signs that we were living in misalignment before we even consciously knew it was physically. We had reached a point where, I know that I had reached a point where I went to my doctor and my doctor said you are exhibiting masking signs of someone who's 2025, years older, you know. And because you're, you're, you internalize that stress, you know. And as a as a man who's the provider as a Latino who's supposed to be macho, all of that, you swallow it, you swallow it, you put off what you know is authentic to you. And every time you swallow that a little bit more, it's your your body takes it in, you know. And so I got to the point where my my cholesterol was ridiculous. My blood pressure, like you
Paul Rivera
were working out every day, was working out. Contradiction, right? Yeah, fit, yeah,
you know, so, and then there comes a point where you're like, Okay, I mean, for me, it was like, I'm my, my life's going to be cut short at some point. It was a very physical kind of
Greg Voisen
a thing, the whole fight or flight thing, you know, cortisol, the cortisol levels will actually kill you, because, you know, we are not living like cavemen, where we have to be worried about all these, you know, exotic animals that are going to eat us, like the tigers and lions. But the reality isn't it. This sounds pretty simplistic. A lot of us live our life as as though we are, yeah, right. And so you're living like, oh my god, you know, what's going to eat me today, the finances, or am I going to lose my job? Or, you know, is this going to happen, or that's going to happen? And you're, if you're constantly, say, focusing on that, right? You're living such a stress life that your cholesterol is up, your cortisol levels are up, your blood pressure's up. You're, you know, you're ultimately living a crazy life. So you guys saw the physical misalignment. How did you see the emotional misalignment? Where was, I mean, Where were your emotions at this point?
Paul Rivera
For me, it was constantly like and it was interesting, because it was a contradiction on my end, because I was doing work that had impact. I was serving communities, I was in humanitarian work, but it wasn't the work, it wasn't the population I wanted to impact. You know? The misalignment was there. And so for me, the anxiety was out of control, like I couldn't even at night, I would feel that I belonged somewhere else, right? So when I hear this and from the people I work, there's like that voice that literally says I need this is not from I need to exit. I need to be somewhere else, right? And that emotional thing ties heavy, right? Like you're constantly anxious. You have panic attacks, and then it spirals to other things, right? You start getting, I was getting anxious about flying that had nothing to do with necessarily anything, right? But it was like it was an accumulation of anxiety, anxiety everywhere, and I started to feel burnout. It's funny. So we talked a lot to other people. Some people were like, Oh, I feel burnout. But it wasn't from working, because I like to work. It was that I wasn't working on things that were aligned with me. I wasn't using my health too. So it doesn't really talk about the superpower, if you can't use it on your every day. I couldn't use it, and I couldn't use the things that were valuable to me, like my value, meaningful work, contribution, I influenced, and I wasn't able to bring like influence, contribution, meaningful work, yes, but it was just like pieces. And I was feeling that and every day, and then feeling irritable, right? And I couldn't pinpoint I even though we talked to my family about it. I went home to my dad and you witnessed it, and my dad was like, that doesn't make any sense. You you help 1000s of people every day. And I'm like, that's not my legacy. That's not my thing. And anyway, that's
Greg Voisen
the alignment you're talking about. I mean, you know, let's face it, if you can get stuff that's aligned and you're in your sweet spot, you're literally, you know, the hours of the day just blow by right now. It still may blow by during misalignment, but at the same time, you're carrying so much stress as a result of the misalignment. And I think for most of my listeners, they understand that you have an exercise in the book called The obituary exercise, yes, to clarify your purpose and legacy. Obviously, you know, writing our obituary should be one where, you know, it's like it's finitude time, folks, you know, people ask me, even myself at my age now today, after 1100 and something podcast and 17 years to do this, and in July, I was 70 years old. So I look at life just quite a bit differently, because this obituary exercise is very clear for somebody who gets a little later in life. So can you share the significance this exercise really had and impacts anybody out there listening their journey to more of a limitless life, because I can almost understand what it is, but I'd love to have you guys explain it.
Paul Rivera
Okay, so the obituary, especially, I get a lot of reactions from it. At first, they're like, Oh, my God, I opened this, and this the first thing. And I feel very I feel emotional, confused and and by and because, I, because we, we touch people who are 1820 right, like that, that's an even part of their scope, right? And also people in the early 40s that don't even want to look at it out of fear, right? But the purpose of the exercise is, like, I really want them to move from the space of thinking about their title and metrics, because at the moment of your obituary, it's about the feeling and impact you're leaving behind, and like, what is and how does that feel like in that moment? And that's where they can get into that headspace of going, Oh my God, wait, it's true in my obituary, if someone's flying over my funeral, right? And it's cultural, culturally different for everybody. That's why I write it there. It's your celebration life, um, it's, it's people are talking about that, right? Like, how you meet them, feel the impact you made in the world, right? And and micro or macro scale, all those things, and they're like, Wow, my title wasn't part of it. My money wasn't part of it. Like, all the stresses on my everyday did not go into that. And it gets people going, Wow, wait. That just gave me so much more perspective, and that people already have something to say today, right? Because we get a lot of like, you know, there's a lot of people where are, like, 20s, 40s and like, well, I have nothing I've accomplished when we do that exercise. Yes, you have, you've already impacted people, right? And that's part of that confidence building as well, realizing you you have it now. It's not when I if I it's today. It's
actually one of the nicest parts about that exercise is that people go into it with a fear of the morbidity around it. And if they've been genuine with the exercise, they come out of it realizing that, in fact, their life has had meaning, that they have had impact already, and that it's about making some adjustments, perhaps to do that better and more effectively and more aligned with them, but it's never the case that they come out and at after that exercise and say, Wow, my life's been wasted, or I've done nothing with my life, right?
Greg Voisen
Yeah, yeah. Well, I think, I think the key, you know, when I just for my listeners, is the title of your website is great. Be act change. You know, the ACT part is really the key, exactly, you know, be act change. If I was going to put up a workshop, it'd probably be called that, right? So look, everybody out there, you know, Paul and Esther, they're, they're going to have setbacks, but they need to be more resilient. Now. It's one thing to say, oh, I need to be more resilient. It's another thing to have a nervous breakdown in the situation, because you really don't know how to be that resilient. What would you what would the two of you tell listeners out there right now that are feeling a bit overwhelmed, they are uncertain. They may realize logically that if I can walk through uncertainty, the opportunity lies on the other side, but they don't have a knowing of it. Yeah, okay. They just don't have a knowing that if I walk through uncertainty, whatever it is, the storm, the finances, the the kids, the issues, and I and but I do. I know, I know on the other side that there's going to be opportunity. What would you advise them about being resilient, to be able to just keep persisting, regardless of that is because on the other side, something good's going to happen.
As an I'll tell you, as an economist, for one, as an economist, when we talk about resilience, it's always in in the context of response to shock, right? I think in this case, we need to think about resilience instead as a daily practice. It's something that you build up over time. Resilience isn't something that you just use in the moment of crisis, but rather something that you have accumulated over time. And it's, it's the practices that help build you up. Like Esther has a really nice example, yeah,
Paul Rivera
like, in the purpose on, there's, uh, there's a thing called, like, what have you overcome, and how? And so I think to answer, the reason why I came up with the purpose on is I chased purpose my whole life, even though I was chasing the American dream. Everyone talked about it, but no one really outlined. What are the questions to ask yourself to unpack that, right? And and the difference between, like, what are all the different elements? And, you know, there's all these different theories around it, but there's something that I think that can help people like listeners that are overwhelmed is that the things that you're that you're overcoming today, are things that you've overcome before, right? And you've you had a tool set that helped you in the past, that could help you today. But as Paul mentioned, the problem is we only use that tool set in the moment when we feel it, when we've hit rock bottom, not even when we're just feeling the moments of overwhelm. It's when we hit bottom, bottom, bottom, right? When we feel like we can't crawl out. And part of that exercise unpacking, okay, what are all the things I've overcome? Right? Like, in my case, was like, depression, anxiety, right, self doubt, all those things. What helped me along the way, and then what helped me along the way, start putting that as part of your daily practice, right? And so when you start doing that as part of your daily practice, you no longer hit rock bottom. So it's like starting in these moments of overwhelm. Okay, so I've probably been overwhelmed in the past, before I hit rock bottom in the past, what helped me was that tool set, and let's do it. So I like what you mentioned earlier, right? That there's all these different techniques, right? There's breathing, there's there's hypnotherapy, right? There's meditation, but you whatever works for each person is different, right? That's why I like this exercise. Is the toolkit that works for each person is it's it's unique, it's different. They have to test out new things, so first use what's worked before, and then add in new practices. But if you start adding that little by little, you start to build that. And then as you start making those steps to understanding yourself and understanding what's aligned with you. What was your childhood dream? What are those characteristics of that dream that you, that you're that's aligned with you? What are my values? And you start making these tweaks, little by little, you start to create this dream. You already start feeling better before you've even reached a destination. I
Greg Voisen
think that old saying Esther is the class, Is the glass half empty or half full, exactly, you know? And I think the perspective really should be, is that is the glass is half full, not half empty, not that actually, things are going down the toilet that I'm actually, you know, the bowl is filling back up again, right? And I think that comes into your perspective. When you say limitless, right? It's like you have to have some spiritual belief beyond what the fiscal world has. And that's where I want to shift the questions here just a little bit, because the two of you sitting there having gone through what you've gone through personally, Esther and you Paul, can't have reached your levels of success, gone through, gotten graduate degrees, USC, you know Esther, you as well, and sit here on this podcast and not have had a strong spiritual belief. Oh, so
Paul Rivera
percent. Yeah. So
Greg Voisen
where is that spiritual belief coming from? Whether it, I mean, it's probably not. It may be originally with Catholicism, but it's probably not now, or maybe it is. It's probably not Christianity. No, it's probably a belief that's beyond that that you have explain to our listeners what that path was for you and how you got there. Yeah,
I would say it was a rocky path, for sure. You know, I was, you know, let come from a Latino family, and definitely a lot of the Catholicism was imposed, but it was not something that necessarily ever clicked with me in a truly spiritual kind of way. And I would say that the spiritual side of all of this is something that I know that I actively fought against for a long time, because I wanted not to go there. I wanted it. I wanted it to feel like it was me and it was my power and my strength and my powers of rationality and intellect that would get me there, and the truth is that that got me pretty far, but it didn't get me to the point where I felt good about it, where I felt fulfilled and that I felt like I was making a difference, until I started to get in touch with that spiritual side, and when I say so, when I say spiritual to me, it means understanding that there is a connection that transcends the physical across not just individuals, but that it integrates when you talk about the environment and the catastrophes that are happening. I see all of that as linked in terms of part of the energy that we put out into the world and what we receive from the world. That's why I love breath work, because it's one of those moments where I feel that connection physically in myself and I've ended and it's something that fulfills me, and it's something that helps me keep understanding why I know that I have my purpose, and I know that connecting to that spiritual side is something that allows me to elevate that purpose and have it be something that I put out into the world. Well,
Paul Rivera
you have a great definition that purpose actually in Hindi means the
word in Hindi, English isn't the only language out there, right? In Hindi, they call it udaysha, and it means your higher place.
Paul Rivera
Yeah, right. So that love that, so that ties to, like my story, with it, where spirituality, for me, is connecting to your higher self, right, yourself in the future, in the vision. So I'm really into I never saw it as spirituality, but I always was. I love James Redfield, right? I love about synchronicity and and I would always have those moments, and every time I would get closer to being fulfilling my purpose and alignment, I would have more of those moments, right? And so I knew that that type of energy existed, but I was fighting against. I did not want to be associated with religion, and in at least, how I grew up within I and I, I very respectful of everybody who's anybody's belief. But for me, it was very restrictive and very gender restrictive, and what we could do and what you couldn't do, and it felt limiting. But being able to being open, that into you could still have a spiritual connection outside of religion. And I could connect right to my Yeah, I
Greg Voisen
think, I think the Buddhist have a good term for it as well. You know, if people have a connection with everything, right, the oneness with all, it's a Satori experience, right? It's like, okay, it's an out of body experience. And we don't, all of us, get that opportunity to have that. But in essence, what your work is doing is helping people to get closer, to be able to have an experience like that as a result of doing the work we have to do to be aligned, doing the work that we have to do to overcome our limiting beliefs. Doing all of that work kind of preps you and sets you up to say, Hey, I'm more in a spot now where I could have one of those. So, you know, you both have some pretty amazing stories, and I'm going to tell my listeners, you know, here's the book. Go out and get a copy of the book off of Amazon. We'll put a link there. We'll put a link to their well, to also to LinkedIn, both of their profiles, and to their website, which is, be act change. You definitely want to go there in your own stories of transformation and kind of wrapping up here, there's a couple of questions. What advice would you give the people that are listening right now who feel that they're at the lowest point possible? It's like they're struggling to see what we've actually just talked about. And you know, that could be a lot of people in today's era, all you gotta do is get on the internet, listen to the news, whatever I would say, you know, try and reduce your diet of that, although people right now are very curious about that. So they're, they're, they're diving into it even more. The more you say no, the more they go do it, right? So the question is, what would you tell them, or what would you advise them to do?
Yeah,
Paul Rivera
so for me, the biggest advice I could give is to take a moment to close your eyes and visualize your ideal day. Like, what are you doing? How are you feeling? And that's a
Greg Voisen
very on purpose day. Your ideal on purpose day,
Paul Rivera
yeah, like, what is my dream day? Look like? How do I feel the impact I'm making? And just take that moment to visualize it. There's so much power just in visualization alone. And I think when you're in that overwhelmed state, I think that's the first step you can take. Right out. That's the first step, visualize it, believe it be like I can. And then the second step is to affirm it. I can have this day. And then third step is I can take one step today. I can do like three things. Like, once, read something, learn, you know, learn, speak to someone, learn something, right? And taking action. And I think just those three things right? And we're not asking for more, especially when you're overwhelmed, it's not about adding more things, but just a simple step of visualizing, I think, like that was part of the our stories, you know, like even, even just the following the American dream, right? Even just going to get those degrees right, where, statistically, if you looked at us, we're it didn't. It's not that part of the statistics, right, like we're point zero or 1% but we visualize that at first, right? We visualize traveling the world, right? Even the metrics, right? And even, like, even when we, we met Paul, got visions, right? And I think just the visualization part realizes that there is some there is in you, this, this, this aligned day already, right? It is there, right? And so just take that one step and that one step closer. We always overestimate we can do in one year, but we estimate, underestimate we can do it five. And it's realizing that, you know, we still have a long life to live and and that you can get there.
I have a different answer to that, okay,
Greg Voisen
and I want to preface what she said. I love the fact that Esther, you have said this three times now during the interview, take small baby steps. You know, I've had so many people on here, the guy at Stanford, tiny changes, right? We've had everybody on here has talked about changing habits, and I agree that if you can actually just change one small thing, and you say maybe not even every day, but maybe just once a week or once a month, right? That's progress toward that. So Paul, you're on my answer
is, my answer is different, and I know that one of the things that I struggle with, and I've mentioned it a couple of times already, but this idea of machismo and having to fight against that, and having coming from a cultural background where I'm told that a man has to behave a certain way, has to always seem strong, one of the hardest things for me still is to actually say it, to vocalize it when I'm down. You talked about, you know, what do you give? What advice do you give to someone who's rock bottom? I know that the hardest thing for many of us is to even say I'm down today's I'm not doing well today, you know. And one of, one of my biggest blessings is Esther, who sees that in me, and she doesn't allow me to stay there as much as I sometimes want to, much to her annoyance. But what I would say is that if you're in you're that person, if you're in that position, absolutely do everything you can to just vocalize that feeling to another person, because that's that's the start, just putting it out in the world, releases a little bit of that weight and opens you to receiving information that is not just in your head, you know, and so much of of when we're when we're in those moments, and we don't see a way out. It's partially because we don't have a perspective beyond ourselves at that point, and sometimes what we need is that input from someone, someone else, who has fresh eyes and a fresh mind on or a new how to or a new Hell
Greg Voisen
yeah, you you have to overcome the fear of asking for help. Yes, you know, I find this, you know, I just did a book, a book interview with a guy who wrote Ben and me about Ben Franklin, but him reflecting on Ben Franklin as a person and what he stood for and but the one of the things that came out for that, what I found interesting, was asking somebody for help and or a favor, right? Or that community that you talked about in your book, that you built, that community of support is so important. So as we wrap up here, what is one of the biggest takeaways that the listeners are going to want to take out of this book and can apply immediately to their life? What would you either one of you say what that is, I
Paul Rivera
would say mindset is really knowing that you can achieve any vision, right? And it's just the time frame changes based on the little steps you take. How you know, how you do that in your life, but anything you visualize, you can make your reality. So I think that's the biggest lesson in the book is that, yes, there's going to be ups and downs and along the way, but if you have a vision and that your vision is valid, and that's what I want to leave people with, because a lot of times people think, Oh, my idea is stupid. My vision's not valid. Nobody's going to understand it. I'm going to throw it away. And I'm saying your vision is valid, that limitless life that you want is amazing. You can make all the impact you want. And here is like the roadmap for you. You create your own roadmap and your own way, and create the resilience on the way, and you can make it happen, and that by doing that, you can help other people do it. And that's how we build collective power and we change society together.
Paul She
Greg Voisen
stole my thunder on the collective power. Because for me, that's that's the lesson in the book. Like, imagine what society would look like if you followed what's in the book. And she did, and I did, and we all did. And suddenly we create a situation where we see each other, not as competition, not as some, not as a you're taking my piece of the pie, but rather you, each of us have a unique superpower. What happens when we come together? What happens when we value each other that way and we start to create that collective power among us? That for me, that's the lesson. And say this too, that it's not just meant like we like to debunk the myth that purpose is only for like, wealthy, privileged. You know what I mean? That's one of our main things, is that everyone has a purpose. Because that was the fallacy we were told, is that that's not for you, and that's not true. We've been all around the world, and every single person, whether you're a fisherman, you're a politician, all societal ranks society, everybody has a purpose and a vision, and they're all They're all valid, and they're all worth seeking, and actually, I appreciate what both of you are doing. Number one, your possibility is because everything's a possibility. Two, you're giving people the tools that they need to actually transform their life to this limitless life. And three, the fact that you've kind of looking looking at this from the patchwork quilt of how we're all interconnected, and that limitless is not just to have something. We have to go by ourselves. We can do this as a community. And for you're elevating the consciousness of individuals to actually see themselves in that light. And I think this is one of the best things that you're doing. Also you're giving them, from a vibratory standpoint, a way to actually vibrate in a whole different new level, to see things in a different level. And scientifically, we also know that the atoms and molecules inside of, you know, this thing that I could hold up, you know, if I had the ability, I could turn this in, or go through this piece of metal or whatever it is. Now, that may sound silly to some, but to really look at your what you're vibrating at is really an important thing, and I want to appreciate and thank both of you for being on insight, personal growth, for spending this time with our listeners. Everybody go out and get a copy of the book. There's also a workbook. I'm going to call it, a guidebook that goes along with this as well. And I didn't have the guidebook here to hold it up, but there is one. You can see it on Amazon as well. Thank you both. Blessings to you each. Namaste to you today. Thanks for Thanks for everything.
Paul Rivera
Thank you so much. Thank you.
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Inside Personal Growth with Greg Voisen · Podcast 1170: Always Squeezing Lemons: Taking Responsibility to Define Your Own SuccessIn this insightful podcast episode of Inside Personal Growth, host Greg Voisen sits down with Kayla Logue, the author of Always Squeezing Lemons: Taking Responsibility to Define Your Own Success, to explore her personal journey of resilience, self-discovery, and personal growth. Kayla candidly shares her experiences, from navigating life’s difficult moments—like a painful divorce—to rediscovering herself in the process. Her story is one of overcoming adversity by making choices that prioritize personal growth, emotional healing, and self-awareness.
The Meaning Behind “Always Squeezing Lemons”In the podcast, Kayla explains the powerful metaphor behind the title of her book. While many of us are familiar with the saying “When life gives you lemons, make lemonade,” Kayla’s version adds an essential layer: the word always. She emphasizes that challenges in life are continuous. Whether it’s a job setback, a relationship issue, or simply facing daily stress, there will always be “lemons” in life. The key, according to Kayla, is to keep squeezing—continuously and intentionally responding to challenges with resilience and determination. As she notes, “Growth is never-ending, and it’s up to us to decide how we respond.”
Kayla’s journey through the difficult end of her marriage during the pandemic illustrates this theme. At first glance, she seemed to have a “picture-perfect” life—married, working in a successful communications role, and following a trajectory many aspire to. However, underneath, Kayla felt deeply unfulfilled, stuck in a cycle of societal expectations that did not align with her own values or dreams. This realization led her to a painful but necessary decision to walk away from the life she had built and start anew.
Letting Go of PerfectionA pivotal moment in Kayla’s journey came when she recognized that she was chasing an illusion of perfection. She describes how societal standards—like getting a good job, marrying, and having children—shaped her decisions, leaving her feeling empty. This illusion of perfection caused her to overlook her own desires and needs, leaving her coasting through life without a clear sense of purpose.
Kayla shares, “I wasn’t asking myself, ‘What do I want?’ I wasn’t truly engaged in my own life.” Her advice to listeners is to step back and reevaluate what success and happiness mean personally, rather than letting societal norms dictate life choices. You can read more about her thoughts on breaking free from societal pressures and defining success on her website.
Overcoming Fear and Taking Control of Your LifeOne of the major takeaways from Kayla’s story is her ability to overcome fear and take control of her life. During the podcast, she shares how fear often manifests as anxiety about the future—worrying about “what if” scenarios that may never happen. Instead of being paralyzed by fear, Kayla learned to focus on what she could control.
She reminds us that while we may not have control over everything that happens, we do have control over how we respond. In the book, she explains how learning this lesson changed her approach to life’s challenges. Now, whenever faced with adversity, she takes a step back and asks, “What can I do right now? What’s within my control?” This shift in mindset allowed her to approach challenges proactively, without being overwhelmed by fear.
Kayla’s message to the audience is clear: life will always present difficulties, but how we choose to respond to them can transform our entire journey. She encourages listeners to adopt a mindset of resilience and self-belief, knowing that they are capable of overcoming whatever obstacles come their way.
Building a Support NetworkAnother important aspect of Kayla’s journey was recognizing the value of a strong support network. She shares how her family and close friends provided essential support as she navigated the changes in her life. However, she also learned that not all relationships are worth keeping—if a relationship feels like work or drains you, it may be time to reconsider its place in your life.
Kayla’s nonprofit Move Into Words fosters a community of like-minded individuals who support each other in their personal growth journeys. The organization’s events combine physical exercise with journaling workshops, creating a space for self-reflection and connection. You can learn more about Kayla’s mission and upcoming events through her Instagram.
ConclusionKayla Logue’s story is one of resilience, courage, and self-discovery. Through her book, Always Squeezing Lemons, and her personal journey, she teaches us that life’s challenges are inevitable, but how we respond to them is what defines our growth. By focusing on what we can control, letting go of societal expectations, and surrounding ourselves with supportive people, we can find the strength to overcome any adversity.
To learn more about Kayla’s work, visit her website, and don’t forget
You may also refer to the transcripts below for the full transciption (not edited) of the interview.
Interview Transcipt -Not EditedEmailDownloadNew TabGreg Voisen
Welcome back to Inside personal growth. This is Greg voisen, the host of inside personal growth. And today, joining us from North Carolina is Kayla Logue, l, o, G, U, E, Hawaii said that right. Hopefully, if I didn't screw it up. And the book is always squeezing lemons. And you know, I think that our listeners and you can get this book on Amazon. You also can go to her website, which is k, a, y, l, a, l, o, G, U, e.com, there, you can learn more about her the book speaking work with her resources. It's quite a robust website, so I'd recommend that you guys go there. Kayla, Good day to you. Thanks for finally getting on the show and spending some time with my listeners to talk about your wonderful journey. Well, painful in many points, but also that's how people learn, right?
Kayla Logue
Yes, exactly. Thank you for having me. I'm super excited for this. Well,
Greg Voisen
good, and I'm super excited to have you, so I'm going to tell people a little bit about you. Kayla. She graduated from University of Southern South Carolina, sorry, with a BA in communication, and she earned a magna cum laude Honors. Congratulations on that during her time there, her colleagues and she founded and hosted the university broadcast. What was that all about? Was that a podcast?
Kayla Logue
It was actually the full news. So it was university news station. I went to school for broadcasting and journalism, and we my coworker and I, or colleague, at the point we started it there. Well,
Greg Voisen
congratulations for that. And her passion for writing ignited during her college years when she preserved journalism, contributing essays to university publications, and she went on as the president of the communications club. They She then moved to Alexandria, Virginia, and took on a role of director of communications and HR for a small government consulting firm. Amidst all these challenges, in 220 2020 marked the start of covid pandemic and the end of her marriage, she's going to be speaking about with us that today, she recently founded a nonprofit called move into words. And you can learn more about her at the website. And it's very easy to get to that website. We'll put a link into the blog itself. But Kayla, I think everybody's interested in finding about always squeezing lemons or making lemonade. And you know, it is interesting when we go through these traumas in life, what we learn and what we take out of it based on our perspective. So the title kind of suggests being resilient, right, and making the best of tough situations. You start the book off right away with the situation, with the divorce and kind of the pain. Can you tell us about the meaning behind the title and really how it resonates with your life journey? Because we said before we came on here that writing this book was very cathartic.
Kayla Logue
Yeah, no, exactly. And I mean kind of, as you already mentioned, when it comes down to, you know, the lemon metaphor, you know, squeeze lemons of life. We're all very familiar with it. But I think the really important part of the title is always, because life is always going to throw you challenges. Growth is never ending, and it's up to us to always be squeezing the lemons of life. And you know, when challenges come our way, it's up to us to respond, and that's it. We just have control over how we respond to that. And you know, hurt, heartbreak, mistakes, failure, no matter how high you are, there's going to be lows. And I think that's really important. So when it comes down to the always part, it's it is the, pretty much the underlying meaning resilience. And you know, through the book, the entire journey is definitely a journey of healing, you know, self awareness, learning, you know, screwing up to figuring it out. And for me, the mentality I've been able to kind of take away, not only from those experiences that I very vulnerably write in the book and are pretty applicable for anybody that reads it and trying to overcome their own journey is the mentality of confidence and faith in myself, and definitely, again, the resilience part, you know, life, it will always throw you women. There will always be challenges. And it's, it really is just up to us to take em off, take em head on.
Greg Voisen
So we're, this is an awful lot question, but you know, you're an exceptionally attractive, beautiful woman. And you know, throughout your life, I'm sure all your friends said that too, and I've always heard this said that you know people that are actually prettier can actually have a lot more challenges. So here you attracted a really nice young man, married him into your life. And frequently we know that, you know, maybe sometimes that's the driving factor behind men, huh, yeah. And it seemed like this, what you call picture perfect life. You know, you were, you were explaining in the book, you know, what that was like, what was the most challenging aspect of making that decision, and how did you find the strength to follow through? Because you had to walk away what seemed from what seemed like this picture perfect life. I see people peer in other people's windows and they think, oh, boy, you know they're those people are just drinking perfect you know, they got the nice car, the nice house, the beautiful wife, the beautiful husband. They're playing tennis, or doing whatever, and they're like, it isn't so good. So explain what was going on with you.
Kayla Logue
Yeah. I mean, I think what I really realized is I was so focused on chasing an illusion of perfection, right? Which is kind of why I call it the picture perfect life. I was focusing on what I felt like I should be doing, or what I had to do, kind of society, standards of, you know, going to school, getting a job, marrying and having kids. And I'm by no means saying any of that's wrong, but I was only prioritizing the next step. I wasn't really asking myself, well, what do I want? You know, who, who do I want to be and where? What does that even look like? And so that's where I really kind of found myself coasting and complacent and just stuck. And so when I found myself kind of at that point, there was a reflection, and I kind of write about that transition of understanding how stuck I felt in this picture perfect life and smiling for the camera on the outside. So it was the facade. But I was miserable. You know? I was not happy my relationship. I felt capped out in my job. I tried to write goals down, and I had none. And that's not how I operate. I'm a very goal oriented, strong minded go getter. And I was just like, What am I doing?
Greg Voisen
So how did you get out of this deep depression? Because usually what happens is emotionally, physically and spiritually, we're kind of off track, right? Oh yeah, right. Well, we've actually run off the tracks, and there are times in everyone's life out there right now they're totally relating to you like it. It doesn't have to be a relationship. It can be money, it can be, you know, a relative. It can be all kinds of things that are interfering. What actually gave you the strength to go through with making the decision you needed to to get your life back on track, or let's just call it back to your alignment with your values. Because, look, you had a certain set of values as a young lady coming into this and you had to compromise those somewhere along the line, and they were not in alignment with who Kayla was,
Kayla Logue
absolutely and I think all of that combined, it just became too heavy of a weight to carry, and I knew I don't want to carry that weight anymore. So at that point, it was either I have to make a decision to do something about it, or I stay stuck here carrying this weight that I no longer want to have this burden of and when you know, again, as you said, it can be any situation for me, I knew I needed to relieve my relationship. I knew I needed to figure out what I really wanted for myself. I knew I needed to form a much stronger relationship with myself to even get to that point. So for me, I had to completely start over. I mean, I, you know, I left with $900 that the divorce is a little messy, and I just started over. I had no direction. I was in the middle of covid, and all I really had was faith in myself that I would figure it out. And, you know, even at the lowest point, I think that's something that we should everybody should take away, is no matter where you're at, if you take full control of your life, you are always a pilot of your own life, and you should never fear changing directions, because a better destination is never overrated. And I write that at the end of the first chapter, which, you know is kind of what I just threw up the new system my whole life. It started over. Just started the clean slate. And you know, when you when you do have that faith in yourself, that underlying faith, and you don't have to have an exact, clear path, but you have to get started. You know, you have to know that where you're at is not where you want to be, and start making moves. Well,
Greg Voisen
those are words of wisdom, for certain, and it was learned as a result of, you know, I think the Buddhists say there is pain and then there's suffering, but the suffering is your choice, absolutely, right? And so how long we live with that suffering is really our own choices. Now, granted, we're all going to have pain, whatever that pain was, in your case, separation and getting out of a marriage, but the suffering that comes afterwards is something that you have a choice to decide how long that is and where you are. And one of the things you did is you mentioning how journaling played this significant role, and in cases, you know, I'm looking through this with the the dates, and you know, you're, you're kind of like, almost like your journal. And journaling is very cathartic, and it's played a significant role in your healing. And I think many people either started and stopped journey journaling, because you'll ask people, it's like, oh, yeah, I started it now. I don't do it anymore. I'm trying to do it digitally, or, you know, whatever. I think the old handwritten way is probably still the best way. But how do you have an advice for anybody right now is kind of hesitant to start a practice of journaling to actually make it be cathartic for them. What would you tell them? Yeah,
Kayla Logue
I mean, you know, I get it. I used to think journaling was a really stupid idea, truly. I thought it was, there's no way, you know, a 25 year old with a long overdue diary that was going to be helpful at all. And my sister, she was the one that really, you know, was adamant about me trying to do it. And I think I really realized after I did, I was just scared to write down all my thoughts. I didn't want to be honest with how I really was feeling. I didn't want to put that on the paper, you know, I kept i It's actually in my book too. I I talk about how I just always outran my thoughts. I had the, you know, athlete mentality. I played sports all my life, and I was just like, you know, suck it up. Rub some dirt on it. And that's not how emotional trauma or, you know, real emotions and feelings work like you have to process them in order to build upon them and grow your self awareness. And when I started journaling, it, it really has been life changing, which is why it's, in my book, it's why we have a whole nonprofit, you know, with that kind of as a basis. But for people that are just starting, I always say, like, anything, start simple. You know, you don't have to sit down. It doesn't have to you don't have to be an author to journal. Doesn't have to make any sense. You just need to write down what you're thinking. You know, it could be one sentence a day. It's better than nothing. I always say, you know, an easy gratitude practice. Write down three things you're grateful for. It takes literally two minutes, you know. And the other thing too, I always say, it's really important for people that are like, Well, I never really got too much other journaling. Much out of journaling. Like, are you being honest with what you're writing down? Are you trying to are you trying to sugarcoat it? Because if you do that, then, yeah, you're not gonna get anything out of it. So I always say, be vulnerable with the pages. Just word vomit, write it down, you know. So I think starting simple and being honest with yourself are two really important things for people that really want to start journaling, or maybe have fallen off the train at the train at the practice.
Greg Voisen
So, Kayla, what were you running from to?
Kayla Logue
What was I running from? Like, in my mind,
Greg Voisen
what were you running from and what were you running to? You know, I
Kayla Logue
never had ask me the question that way. So I think I was honestly out running myself or trying to outrun myself, in the sense of, I didn't really want to process my thoughts. I didn't, I wasn't really ready to forgive myself for, you know, compromising myself in ways that I know I hold myself to a higher standard. And like, I was running physically a ton in the summer of 2020, I mean, just non stop. And that was, you know, and that was, you know, and I was kind of going through my lowest point, and I would say that was the biggest thing I, you know, I hadn't forgiven myself. I was really confused. I was really lost. And I was definitely running towards wanting to find out who I was, you know, really wanting to have that strong relationship with myself. And, you know, trying to find had that level of self awareness and journaling was the gap that bridged that for me, it truly was writing it down and really again, being honest, but also self forgiveness, you know, forgiving myself for the years that I compromised knowing that I shouldn't have, you know, forgiving myself for hurting people that you know in my own feelings and thoughts at The time, I just pushed aside and kept going. So, yeah, I think that's, that's a huge part of her healing journey as well.
Greg Voisen
Well, look, you said you're an athlete and you ran. And I remember the times when I went through marital challenges, I would run, and I always was like the cathartic element of the time to actually be out in the air, be open, to be free with your thoughts, to let them run wild and then let them go past very quickly, seem to have a huge effect. And I think that's true for a lot of people. You know, you get the endorphin release, you get the oxytocins. You get the kind of things you need that you maybe not getting from other things in life, right? And I know that now, when you left this long term relationship, everybody knows that's can be incredibly difficult, especially when there's a sense of obligation to others, right? It's like, okay, I committed to this marriage. Okay, now I'm going to end this marriage, and who am I going to hurt along the way? Who's going to get hurt in the process? The reality is, you are being hurt as much as anybody, right? So how did you work through the feelings of the guilt and or the fear or both of judgment during this period, because you had to be judging yourself about making the decision right. Like, oh no, who's going to hurt? You know, his family, my family, everybody who knows us, everything, right? It's like a house of cards,
Kayla Logue
absolutely and I mean, honestly, I mean, it definitely was, and a lot of that had to do with, you know, letting go of family, friends, relationships that you knew you wouldn't have anymore, you know, that you had for a long time. And honestly, I didn't cope with it great all the time. I write about that in my book. You know, there were times where I drank excessively, I had company with the wrong people, so for a minute, I don't think I handled it well. You know, I was kind of just trying to cope, and not great ways. And I think the biggest thing that helped me, and I write about even the support system, was I realized that the people that you know wouldn't judge me or even like myself, that like loved and cared about me no matter what decision I made, they're there to support me, and the only time I'm going to disappoint them is if I'm disappointing myself. And that, for me, kind of that clarity of, you know, people are going to judge you, people are going to say things. People are going to, you know, try to bring you down. The end of the day, the people that love you and truly care about you, they're always going to be there. And when it comes down to, like your your own decisions, too. I mean, you can't compromise yourself for somebody else, you know, just just because you feel like you should, you never should. You know you have to be selfish before you can be selfless, because it's really the most selfless thing you can do. And when I really kind of put that together, I mean, it took a while, but when I was able to accept that, you know, I really, I've really checked my behavior. I really, you know, changed who I spent my time with, and definitely the healing process got a lot easier.
Greg Voisen
Well, one of the things that usually is the case, and sometimes, when we first go into a marriage or relationship, we don't really realize it, but we have this level of expectation that the other person's going to make us happy, and never, in any case is that, ever the case that we should enter any relationship, thinking that it's that person's obligation to make me happy. We've got to be happy ourselves as a result of whatever it is, and so no one, usually, hardly ever. Now I'm not saying you can't have a great loving relationship, and someone can be great to you, but your happiness is an inside job. It's your own job. And you mentioned this resume of overcoming obstacles in the book. What are some of the key skills or mindsets that you developed from the experiences that kind of continue to guide you today. You know, you went through this experiences, you grew through it, you came out the other side, a better person for it. And you certainly took something from that, right? And I guess my question is, what did you take from it that the listeners out there today could learn from what you took from the pain,
Kayla Logue
you know, I think at the end of the day, and kind of going back to how you said, you know, we choose to suffer, right? It's we feel pain, but we choose to suffer. It's really all about being present. And I know we hear it all the time, but hearing it and feeling it on the level that you're able and capable of doing is very different. You know, a lot of times we don't choose to be present. We're so caught up in what's next, or, you know, where we're not at, or, you know, comparing ourselves to somebody else's progress, rather than recognizing we are here. We are healthy. We have a lot to be thankful for and not and giving ourselves credit. And, you know, I learned, but a lot of the times too, even, like with fear and, you know, anxiety, it's all things out of our control. So when you're present, you focus on what is in your control. And so it's just like, really the power of the mind. And for me, you know, I prioritize things for myself on a health level, daily, you know, I work out. I take time for journaling, I keep my space. I prioritize saying no to the things that I don't want to do anymore, which was a huge thing for me. And the company I keep is really important, you know, I don't I spend my I spend my time with people that I know have the right energy, that were on the same page. I i no longer compromise myself so but in order, until I was able to be present and really, you know, find who I was, what I really wanted at that was almost impossible, you know, so hearing being present and truly being present are very different, but that was one major thing for me. Well,
Greg Voisen
I get that you're extremely mindful, and you're very focused, and I think that you know, as you went through this with the fear, right? Making the decision was fearful, you had to be shaking in your shoes, right? Usually, most people are. But there's, it's very discomfortable. You know, you're like in discomfort, and they say you don't grow unless there's some discomfort. What did you how did you take those opportunities, and what would you tell the listeners right now, in a shift in mindset that really helped you kind of get through it. What advice might you give them to say, hey, look, I know there's pain. You don't have to accept the suffering, but the reality is, you do have to have a shift in mindset, because in in this world of psychology, and I have a master's degree in spiritual psychology, there's really usually only two emotions, love and fear. And if you stop loving yourself, right, it's very hard to love someone else 100%
Kayla Logue
it's always impossible. I don't think
Greg Voisen
you can right? And so what you were telling me is you went through this period of not really loving yourself. What advice would you give somebody today to get out of that and then also to eliminate and or reduce the amount of fear they're dealing with, to make a decision that to either end something or change something or do something different in their life?
Kayla Logue
Well, fear really is anxiety of the future, right? It's a lot of the times situations that we make up in our mind that don't ever happen or aren't going to happen. It's, it's that negative narrative of like, well, what if this goes wrong? What if I fail here? What if this doesn't happen? And these are all things that are hypothetical, right? A lot of the times when we're scared, we don't think of the opposite. We don't think of, what if it works out, you know? What if this goes the right way, what? What's next? And when that narrative alone for me is I say, and I think during, during the time, like as I reflect back. I don't really know if I I know how it came about, but I just knew I didn't have an option. I knew I was either going to stay stuck and not make a difference, or I was going to figure it out. And I think just that, that understanding of I was no longer going to suffer in the situation, I was like, I was done dealing with being stuck or not feeling free and figuring it out that it was enough pain to choose the counter and whatever that looked like I chose, I was like, I will figure this out. The opposite. What if it's not what if it fails? Because if it fails, then I'll figure out the solution. On the other side, there's always a silver lining. And you know, when, if you're hitting rock bottom, you've just got to keep crawling up, you know? And I think in terms of the practicalness of it is your taste,
Greg Voisen
so your glass was half full, not half empty. So the other thing is, and I'm sure you've heard this, you said something about fear. And I, I want to just repeat for many of the listeners, I'm sure they've heard this. You know, the acronym for fear is false expectations appearing real, you basically said that. But I always think sometimes that acronym that somebody just remembers false expectation appearing real is really a great way to look at fear. And fear frequently controls our life. It starts to consume us. It starts to be every element. It then leads to anxiety and depression and all these other things that we have in our life. And one of the most significant realizations for you was understanding that you were in control of your responses. You write about that in the book, even when life feels out of control, which I'm sure it did in so many cases, how is the insight that insight about control changed your approach to any challenges that you might come up against now in life,
Kayla Logue
you know, I think it just makes it a little more simple in the sense of, I Don't think of things that are outside of my control. I don't, you know, have anxiety about other situations that no matter how I respond, are going to pan out anyway. You know, I can only deal with what's in front of me, and it simplifies it. It simplifies and prioritizes it. I'm like, Okay, here's rather than me being scared or freaked out about this, and that there's 1000 things that I could be over here. I'm dialed in. I'm like, Okay, what is the next step? What do I need to do? How can I handle this? So it's all focused on what I need to do, and the outside noise obstacles are going to pan out the way they are, and I just have to be able to be, you know, pretty much on defense, figuring it out, but at the same time, when you're focused on what's in your control, you're always on offense. And I think that's also what's really important. You know, it just makes makes your mind a lot less chaotic. Because I definitely used to not be that way, but when I realized, like, you can be the cause problem and solution for everything in Your Life, Your World, Your narrative changes. And I think that's something if everybody could adopt and really truly understand what that mindset means, and take real control of their lives, a lot of the world would be a lot different.
Greg Voisen
You know. Well, it sounds to me, you know, like in the after reading actually, you were very driven person, right? So in other words, you know, and have these goals, you're an athlete. You go in these situations, and, you know, usually people like that. They want to be in control. And when they lose control, it's like, it's a it's a train wreck, you know, it's like a yard sale. Skate a yard sale. When you go down the mountain on your skis, right? They call it a sale, right? Yeah. So, so one of your most the what you wrote about in the book was really this importance of support networks. And I think support networks are, you know, that's why you have the nonprofit, that's why you're helping women, that's why you're doing what you're doing. How has your family and your friends played a role? And how do you build and nurture these kind of relationships, especially during the challenging times that you know like you've been through, right? It's like, okay, it's okay to sever this now I can just sever this with everybody. I could just say, Okay, I'm going to make a whole new community of support for me. Or you can be you can practice loving kindness and go back to all those relationships and attempt to hold on to the relationships where there was compassion and understanding. I mean, whether it was his family or people in your family or people that you knew, or people you guys hung out together with, who kind of made up the tribe, all of that changes. But the the reality is it doesn't fundamentally have to change that drastically. What did you get out of that? Well,
Kayla Logue
definitely, obviously, my close friends and family were backbone through the whole situation, so I'm very blessed and fortunate to have that. But one thing I write in my book that I think is a really important perspective, whether it's an intimate relationship, friendship, partnership, is Relationships are hard work, but they shouldn't be hard and they shouldn't feel like work, meaning that, you know, when you have somebody because, I mean, when you have somebody that cares about you and you care about somebody else, it's one of those things where it's it shouldn't be that hard to reach out or stay connected, or, you know, offer a helping hand, and work is exhausting, you know. I mean, we all I love my job. I love what I do. I love what I mean. I put myself in this position, but, but the world is already a hard enough place, right? Like we already have to work hard to do what we want to do. Relationships shouldn't be like work, you know? They should feel easy. They should flow. And I think for me, that's been a really fundamental thing that's allowed me to know what relationships I want to keep in my life, and ones that should be there because it's easy, it's fluid, it's not, you know, oh my gosh, this is, I don't really want to talk to this person, or I don't want to do this. And a lot of times that comes down to your values and morals. If you don't value the same thing, you don't have the same morals, probably shouldn't be hanging out. And that's the one thing I think that hold a lot of people back, is you grow and you change. And some people don't grow and change with you, and that's okay. But I mean, over the past couple of years even, I mean, I have, you know, multiple relationships that don't get me wrong, there's, there's no bad blood, but I don't choose to hang out with them anymore. We're just on different pages and wish them nothing but the best, but they're going to hold me back. You know, we don't, we don't do the same things on daily basis. We don't believe the same things. We don't want the same things and and that's okay, but it really is important your environment, no matter who it is, that you surround yourself with those people that, again, don't make your relationships feel hard or like work.
Greg Voisen
No, you get to choose that. And you know you say. And on that note, getting comfortable and being uncomfortable is a major theme in the book, what strategies have helped you to embrace this mindset or shift in mindset, and how can others start to make peace with this discomfort?
Kayla Logue
Kind of as you said, I mean, nothing great ever happens in your comfort zone, and I do find that a lot of people don't want to even try to get to that point, though, to try to feel that greatness, like we don't like being uncomfortable. And I think the simplest way to to really, at least dab your toe in it and keep, keep trying to be more uncomfortable with situations to get where you want is realizing it's temporary. You know, discomfort is not it's not going to always be that way. But in order to make strides forward to, you know, have rewards or some sort of fulfillment, you have to get uncomfortable. You know, I always like to use the analogy of the cold plunge, which I do often. I have one at our house, and, you know, it's three minutes every morning. Soon as I wake up and do I want to plunge my body and 43 degree like tub of water at five in the morning. No, I don't want to do that, right? It's challenging, but it's temporary. And after I get out
Greg Voisen
for your circulation system, though,
Kayla Logue
there's so many benefits, and you feel awesome, so the reward of those temporary three minutes is absolutely worth it. And it's the same thing with anything. I mean, I've never once talked to somebody that's successful. That's successful and has ever accomplished anything great that didn't have to go through pain or hardships or, you know, try something they didn't want to, or do something they didn't want to. It's just a part of growing. And
Greg Voisen
even you do have a somatic breathing practice as well. Are you involved in are you
Kayla Logue
I need to get better? I waiting in terms of my breathing practice?
Greg Voisen
Well, I think it, what is it? The guy renham, what's the guy who does the cold pledges? The author, anyway, he's the one who, kind of guy from, he's the guy from the Netherlands, or wherever that started, kind of the whole thing and, and my point was is, you know, whether it's a sauna or it's a cold plunge, or it's where it's breathing, somatic breathing, which is a big thing. Now, all of those do one thing. They I don't want to say this this way. How do I say they jolt the system. They reboot the system, and they bring you a tremendous amount of endorphin releases as result, which makes you feel better the rest of the day, no matter what you do so it whether it's breathing, whether it's yoga, whether it's meditation, whether it's cold plunges, all of those are good for you now share one of the most surprising discoveries about yourself that came from your journey and how it may have reshaped or shaped your approach to how you preview life.
Kayla Logue
So I kind of touched on this a little bit earlier, but I think the biggest thing I really realized was I was always putting others before myself. So I definitely would compromise myself, or I would serve others needs before my own, or even if I really knew what my own were, I was just kind of going through society's checklist. Why did
Greg Voisen
you do that? Because I still do that, and I, you know what happens to me? Sometimes, Kayla, I get really angry. Yeah, no, it's I get pissed off at myself, because it's always me doing something else for someone else. And the reality is, it's like, oh, where about the time for me
Kayla Logue
saying no, saying No, and it's and it's so it's so much easier said than done, because I've always been, I literally write about I was always a yes woman and not be wrong. There's still times where I find myself doing things from like, what am I doing? Why am I doing exactly? And I keep checking myself. So don't worry, I'm not perfect.
Greg Voisen
You know what it is. It's because you know how to do it. You know frequently, sometimes, whether it's a spouse or it's a co worker or whatever it might be, or a friend, and they say, Oh, can you help me with this? You don't just say, No, you go ahead and do whatever it is, because they're asking your advice or your help to be able to right? So, but even, as you said,
Kayla Logue
you like, you get angry, right? So I
Greg Voisen
do kind of actually get angry at myself and talking
Kayla Logue
kind of the other thing, I guess, in terms of, like, full circling, that is being selfish before you can be selfless, because it is the most selfless thing you can do, which is kind of what I touched on, and when I say that is, in order for you to be the best version of yourself or others, you gotta do it for yourself first. So if you're angry because you're helping somebody else, you're clearly not giving yourself the right time, right and so for me, it was like a big full circle, and I would say that's the biggest thing that I've now prioritized. It's helped me a lot through all of my journey.
Greg Voisen
Well, look, you've had an incredible journey, and you're quite successful on the real estate business, and you also have this nonprofit that you're working on. Tell our listeners why you opened up the nonprofit and started it, what is its purpose? How can they learn more, and what is your ultimate give back meaning, like, oh, yeah, I did this. Did you do this for Kayla? Or did you do this to, like, give back some of yourself, or have others find themselves as a result of joining the nonprofit?
Kayla Logue
Yeah? So, I mean, I'll even touch on, kind of the ending part of why I did this, you know, and then build off top of it. But even when I wrote my book, I remember going to a workshop, and everyone's like, you know, they're running their business or their brands, and I'm like, I just know I have a book I need to write that I know can help other people, you know. So the very beginning of everything I'm doing and have done is just been because I know my story, my experiences and who I am as a person can definitely help others. And I just never want to see anybody stuck or lost the way I was, you know, I and I've experienced feeling that way and truly coming out on the other side. And don't get me wrong, I'm still growing, learning, healing, but from where I was four years ago and where I am now, and what I've experienced through that process and how I've overcome it. I know I can help so many people in that sense, and move into words. You know, bridge is what the one practical tool for me that I found was truly life changing, which was journaling. And so it's the fundamental of the movement into words, right? So move into words. So we have a workout for the body and then a workshop for the mind. So right now, we've done quarterly events where we host, you know, we mostly for young professionals, and we do a workout, whether it's boxing, hit, yoga, walking. And then we provide journals. We show practical tools. We talk about journaling as something that you know only, not only there that you do it, but on a daily basis. And we also bring motivational speakers, so we have, like, a topic of the day. Really just allows people to network. But we have a big vision for the way we're going to expand. We want it to be in multiple cities. We have a lot of other programs and plans that we want to build out. But we just launched our first kind of fundraising operation, which is called Operation 1 million journals. So of course, the mission being to put 1 million journals in the hands of 1 million young professionals. All
Greg Voisen
you have to do, Kayla is go to a journaling company and joint venture with them, and,
Kayla Logue
oh, trust me, we're already thinking about all these things, but it's really I,
Greg Voisen
as you say this and you're telling me what you're doing. You know, people coming together, people journaling together, people moving together, their bodies, right? This is all part of this. Yes, I'm reflecting back on and you may not know these folks because you're kind of young, but many of my listeners, well, I had the honor of sitting in the living room with George Leonard, and George Leonard and Michael Murphy founded estelon. So it's here in Big Sur, California, just right up the road here. And they actually started a thing called ITP, integrative, transformative practice. And ITP was a combination anybody could do it, but when you left the room, it was like, Oh my gosh. What happened? Because it was a meditation, it was Tai Chi, it was yoga, and it was combined into one practice. And when people left the room, they were like, Oh my God. What happened to me? It's like they had a Satori experience, like a one with everything, right? And I see that what you want to do is help either, yeah, is it all women, or is it women and men? Or is it who can come to this? Is it mainly women?
Kayla Logue
I actually, we have a pretty big mix. It's almost, I mean, probably 6040 when it comes down to 60% women, 40% men. For the past couple events that we've had, it's mostly young, it's mostly young professionals. So really, you know, age range anywhere from like 18 to 40 is kind of what we've been seeing. You know, it's, of course, opportunities for networking and community as well, and bringing like minded growth, minded individuals into one place, right? People that want to be better for themselves, people
Greg Voisen
one are you teaching a course around journaling.
Kayla Logue
I'm working on my own personal course around it. Okay, yes,
Greg Voisen
to come for all of our listeners, look for that course. It's going to come because, look journaling, there's so many people that do kind of like journaling events and I and I really think that it's incredibly cathartic, along with meditation, mindfulness, practice, yoga, you know, your cold plunges. All of that is, is it's in that line. And I just want to wish you tremendous success with the charity and the work that you're doing outreach. You said a million people. Is that right? That's
Kayla Logue
what operation, 1 million journals. 1
Greg Voisen
million, 1 million journals. So, yeah, I will help you get there, because I will drive a lot of people over to you. Please do that amazing. And then our last question here, if there were three takeaways that people would get from we always squeezing lemons. What would you want those nuggets to be, and how would you like people to utilize those nuggets in their life?
Kayla Logue
So I mentioned the first one being when you realize you can be the calmest problem and solution for everything in your life. Your role changes. So it's really kind of that mindset shift of you are in control. You're in the driver's seat. You know, you make the choices, whether they lead to consequences or rewards, and at the end of the day, it's only up to you to continue to make the decisions to keep pushing forward. But when you you stop blaming or you stop, you know, playing the victim role, your life changes, you know, and I mean not saying that you even have to be playing the victim role to be in that situation, but maybe you're just stuck, and that's where I was, and you need that little kick, right? Well, you have the choice. You can make the decision to move on or do something different. So that would be the first one. The next one I would say, I think it's really important, is success is subjective, and we get to define it individually. And when I say that, what I you know, my version of success, your version of success, anybody's version of success, might mean something different, but we're so used to seeing what we feel like we need to succeed for you know, we're we need to make millions of dollars, we need to be doing this. We need to be doing that. But that might not be motivators for people you know. So defining what success means to you, individual, individually, is really important, and that will help you, you know, really identify what your values, your morals are, what you're doing. And maybe, if you feel unfulfilled, you're probably trying to chase a version of success that isn't yours. And so when you can really kind of dial that back in, I think that's super, super important. And you know, the last one, really, I think, is just have faith in yourself. You know self doubt is is a killer, and you know your own mental narrative could be your greatest asset or your Achilles heel. And when you have faith in yourself when you know you will overcome anything, no matter what it is, it's it's pretty powerful, what you'll be able to accomplish.
Greg Voisen
Well, those are three great takeaways, and for my listeners to repeat, the first one was, basically, you're 100% responsible for yourself. No one else is all the excuses you make in life. That's all about who you are, not anyone else. Two, two, basically is how you define success in life, right? I get that, right. So it's all up to you defining third one and the third one again, have faith in yourself. Have faith. So if you walked away from this podcast and you took those three things and you put it into your life, along with a journal, you'd be key. You'd be right on,
Kayla Logue
yeah, for sure, get yourself a journal, start writing you down.
Greg Voisen
So Kayla, Namaste to you. Thank you for being on inside personal growth and spending some time with our listeners who are definitely into this, and I'm sure that this conversation is going to resonate with all of them. Blessings here on your journey with the nonprofit and the work that you're doing to help people see how this very easy, simple thing, once you break through and you're able to start to write about yourself and be truthful, actually can be a wide opening. One suggestion I'd make is, when I was getting my master's degree in spiritual psychology, we did a similar thing around writing journals, but basically what the instructor said was, now, this wasn't the whole time, but it was much of it, whatever you wrote, wadded up and put it in the fireplace, like you're getting rid of it. So literally, not keep it in the journal to reread it. You've already written it, it already came out, throw it away and put it in fireplace. Now I'm not saying that's for everybody, but I will say actually, when you're in a tough relationship and you're going through something, that the pain associated with that and the release of putting that into the fire pit was really, really quite comforting. So, yeah, I could totally see that. Yeah, exactly. Very comforting. Well, thanks so much for being on the show. Have a wonderful rest of your evening and enjoy and we'll stay in touch.
Kayla Logue
Yeah, thank you so much. It was great.
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Inside Personal Growth with Greg Voisen · Podcast 1169: The Hummus Strategy: Against All Odds, From Victim to WinnerIn the latest episode of Inside Personal Growth, Greg Voisen welcomes Sheryn Knaider, an international speaker, consultant, and the author of The Hummus Strategy. This captivating conversation dives into Sheryn’s remarkable journey from war-torn Lebanon to becoming a voice for resilience and transformation. Her book, The Hummus Strategy: Against All Odds, From Victim to Winner, is not just about overcoming obstacles—it’s about finding opportunity in adversity and using those challenges as stepping stones to success.Sheryn, who has lived through the Lebanese Civil War, losing her father at a young age, and navigating life as a single mother, embodies resilience. She shared insights into how these life experiences have shaped her, and how adversity equips individuals with the strength to uncover opportunities. Her belief is that hardships often push us out of our comfort zones, and in doing so, create new paths for growth.
In the podcast, Sheryn highlights key strategies from her book, such as how a positive mindset can transform your perception of adversity. Through her metaphor of hummus, a staple food in Middle Eastern culture, she conveys lessons about nourishment, simplicity, and connection—applying these ideas to life and business.
For those intrigued by Sheryn’s story, you can learn more about her by visiting her website, where you can also download a free chapter of her book. Sheryn is also active on LinkedIn and Instagram, where she shares further insights into personal growth, resilience, and the strategies that have guided her journey.
Don’t miss out on the powerful lessons in The Hummus Strategy, and be sure to follow Sheryn on social media to stay connected with her latest work.
You may also refer to the transcripts below for the full transciption (not edited) of the interview.
Interview Transcipt -Not EditedEmailDownloadNew TabGreg Voisen
Welcome back to Inside personal growth. This is Greg voisen, the host of inside personal growth and joining me actually from Dubai, but normally from Lebanon, is Sharon, and I want you to pronounce your last name so that I don't mess it up. I was going to say Nader. Neither.
Sheryn Knaider
It's neither. Yes, conidr,
Greg Voisen
but it's k n, a, I D, E R, and for all of my listeners, you can go out to her website. It's Sharon, and she spells her first name a little bit differently too, S, H E R, Y n, k n, a, I d e r.com, and we're going to be talking about her new book, and we want to hold that up. Sharon called the hummus strategy. And there it is. And Sharon is somebody that I actually found out she did a post on LinkedIn, and I reached out to her about being on the show. So Good day to you. Thank you for being on the show. You can put the book down now, that'd be good, and I'm going to let everybody know a little bit about you. She's renowned international as a speaker, consultant and author. She specializes in creative and problem solving strategies through the application of applied neuroscience. She's a licensed instructor in mind mapping. We were just talking about. Chris Griffis, who is the owner of AOA software, and her history that she had with. Day because of the conditions that are currently present in Lebanon and the war we're now talking it is now the what is today, the 24th of September, 2024 so Good day to you, Sharon. How are you despite all of the challenges that you've been facing in Lebanon and so on.
Sheryn Knaider
First of all, thank you, Greg, for this opportunity, immense opportunity for us, for me, to speak on your channel. This is first guys. Sorry, I do speak English. It's my third language, so be patient. I might sometimes by my words, how am I? Greg, it's been not 29 not 39 but 49 years that we are living war. So it's, it's, it's overwhelming and and I, I was about to get out of the country by miracle. We can say so it is very heavy, but no one can relate to that, so I'm not going to too much talk about it. Just be grateful every single day in the morning, and just be grateful
Greg Voisen
we are here to you definitely. I you know the thing is, is that if anyone wants to go to her LinkedIn page, we'll put a link to it, and you will actually see some of her windows shaking because of the bombing. And I actually commented on that this morning, because the people who are living in kind of the free world and without this, they don't really realize what anxiety this actually creates. And you know, in your book The hummus strategy, you certainly have been through so much, Sharon, and you're welcome to tell your story, and I'd love to know more about it, but it's really about resilience and transformation. And you know, as a public speaker and as a writer, how does your personal journey reflect, in this case, kind of the protagonist evolution, and what specific adversities in your life, because you've had so many you lost your father, you've opened up restaurants, you've been through so much, you've had children. You decided to be a mom instead of, you know, choosing other things. What's inspired the kind of these narratives in your life? What do you think it is in particular? And if you would, who, who? Because we're talking about this personal element has been most influential in your life.
Sheryn Knaider
Okay, I'm gonna start with the last question, because there's any question there, I was eight years old when the war started in Lebanon. I had the first gun in my hand at eight years old. So before eight, I don't remember anything the what I can tell you the most important birth person after God. I'm Christian, Okay, God, my father and myself. I lost my father when I was 17. He was my rock, my pillar, my whatever you want. We used to do these. He was a very philosophic person. We used to he used to speak seven, eight languages. I speak five. So we were dumb in front of him. So my father was this very open minded, not at all religious, not at all fanatic, very open minded, and he taught me what he could. He passed away when he was only 59, years old by heart attack. So I think I am this homo strategy book is about me trying to help other people in a way which I don't talk about myself. Okay, I took the story of a man called Salim that loses everything, and I put him in another country. I do it on purpose, just to tell you guys that adversity is one way to get out of your comfort zone. So whenever whatever happens to you, this is what I put on my website. What if your problem is the next opportunity of your life?
Greg Voisen
So how do you how do you believe adversity, and in particular adversity, because you've been through so much, uniquely equips individuals to find opportunities. And what specific strategies can you draw on from the book that you would like to relate to our listeners today, because everybody can look at adversity with a different perspective or a different lens, and they I always know that when things are uncertain, right, like they are kind of for you right now, on the other side of uncertainty is always opportunity, yes, but you have to be willing to go through the uncertainty to find The opportunity. So can you reflect on us and draw on some of the specific strategies you might be giving people from the book.
Sheryn Knaider
Look in the book. The book is divided in two sections. The first section, which is very nice, is a story, small chapters, small chapters, small lesson. 26 lessons. And then you have the formula, the equation. It's really equation. And where, there I go through on details. The first thing I can tell you, I lived in so many countries, the Middle East, Europe,
Greg Voisen
whatsoever, France. You
Sheryn Knaider
are all over Italy. Geneva,
Greg Voisen
what I know did I read you had an Italian restaurant at one point too.
Sheryn Knaider
We, we have a lot of Italian restaurants. I Yeah, Italian and anyway, so I noticed one thing in France, in Paris, you stay here and you wait for the bus. If the bus is two or three minutes late, they start nagging. They start lingering about their you know, blah blah blah and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, oh my God, come to us. We have no busses, we have no electricity. If we have electricity is one and a half hour a day, we are blessed because we have electricity one and a half hour a day. So that makes of us people who only see the good things about life, because the bad thing is, when I am down and I'm dead, that is the bad thing, or I love somebody in my family, and despite that, I will find the strength to go because I'm still alive. God gave me this faculty to be alive. So I have to help others. So think about it, if you wake up every single day, this is neuroscience saying to yourself, Oh, damn it. You know, what a horrible day I'm gonna have my husband, my kids, my friends that I did well, Neuroscience tells you he will go your subconscious gets you all the negative thoughts of your life and them here. Then you go to the shower, and you say, you see the water is not warm. Oh, what a day. And you start arguing. Okay, this is scenario number one. So we know that when you think negative, negative things are going to happen. You What If? Scenario number two, you wake up in the morning, you just, you know, touch yourself and Okay, nothing is missing. Nothing is missing, and it's true. And then you smile. I do meditation. I said that okay, and I smile because I know I'm gonna have a good coffee. Good coffee means a black a white pebble on the sand. It's super and then I listen to a nice music, another another white pebble. And throughout the day, okay, somebody called you and pissed you off. Okay, that deserves a white a black pebble. But throughout the day, if you look and you see, you will see a lot of white pebbles, white action, which is sorry, which are good actions in life. But we humans now, we only linger and we focus on the bad things. So think of your life. Where are you standing? Are you in prison? Are you in Gaza? Are you in Ukraine? No, no, we are not. 90% of the people are living good, and they have electricity and they have food. So take that as a blessing and try to help others. Believe me, believe me. More you are poor, more you give, more you're rich,
Greg Voisen
less you give. I heard a statistic just from a Bill Gates. We don't call it. He works with malnutrition and malaria. He's trying to do a lot of different things, and whether you like him or not, statistically, the documentary was saying, 90% of the world is living on $7 a day, $7 a day, right? And I just want to put that in perspective for people, especially the ones here in the United States, where we have such abundance, budget oversupply, of almost everything that you know, much of the world's population is at at poverty level, and there's still an adversity you want to talk about adversity, still able to love and be in community, talk about community, and what Critical Role This is in the book, and how does community support what influences your personal transformation? Because before you came on, you said, look, it's really about everybody's on the internet. We're not being as personable as we could be. We aren't able to connect. We're not doing what we're doing. The role of community in Lebanon must be extremely valuable, especially in strong times of adversity and war and so on. But even not, I think the Lebanese people, from the ones that I've known, besides you, are very gracious, very vivacious, outgoing. They seem to want to connect. Tell us a little bit more how this community helped you as a person.
Sheryn Knaider
Share it okay. One small example of adversity and about community. Community is energy. Think of community as being energy.
Greg Voisen
Energy
Sheryn Knaider
is community. Is about the environment, right? People who are around you, family, friends, neighbors, building office, whatsoever. This is the energy you are. If you are with people who are connected on their cell phones and don't say hello, by the end of the day, you get depressed. Okay, let's be honest. Back in the 80s, because I was in the 80s, we had no cell phones, we had no satellites, we had no drones. We used to go outside and play in the, you know, stand and we were happy. And then we have to come home wash our hands and and, but we were happy. We were happy with very simple things about community. If, for example, you tell me, I don't have a community. I just moved to a new town. Fine. A new town. Okay, you are 4050, 20, what's the age is not an issue. People think that they will be rejected. Whereas Imagine you want to learn a new language, French. Okay, let's say this French. You decided to learn French so you go to a course that teach you French. You will start being interested by French culture. And then there you will meet new people. So you have interaction with new people. It can be a language, it can be music, it can be crafting, it can be anything. It can be religion. It can be who knows the building? I don't know, but what I know is when the fourth of August 2020, I don't know if you remember the biggest explosion in the world, after Hiroshima and Nagasaki, 2750
Greg Voisen
tons
Sheryn Knaider
of Nikah de sodium, okay, Blue in the port of Beirut that completely demolished in few seconds. The whole town the government didn't help. No one did. No one
Greg Voisen
who helped the people they came together
Sheryn Knaider
who were there injured or lost their own people, hand by hand, these fragile people created a community from nothing like I am a carpenter. You don't have a window anymore. I'll come and change the window. You do the same with the glass and whatsoever. This is what happened. So basically, what I mean by that it's super important in the Maslow right, is is community. You can have all the money you have, you can have 100,000 people following you, and you are there alone, Greg alone, so let's go back to reset some things and and what I found amazing is I like, I like laughing. I do stand up committee, okay? And what I find amazing is I'm a professional speaker. I'm not a speaker, I'm a professional speaker, and I'm the founding president of the professional speaker association of the Mina and GCC region. So I am a very outgoing person. My father used to talk Tell me something, if you want to be an alpha woman, because we're talking about women in the Middle East, right? Not easy. I'm not veiled. I'm not Muslim. I have a French I have a nostril name, which looks like Ashkenaz, which I am not Jew so it's crazy, but it's crazy. It's crazy. I have everything, but I have nothing. So my father used to tell me laugh humor is the most Charlie Chaplin said the most common thing in between two strangers is is humor or football or soccer? Call it whatever you want, but humor, humor is the thing that you know connects. So I I did use a lot of humor in my life, and I found out that everybody likes to laugh. Everybody to have a good laugh. Why? Now stand up comedian are, are like everybody's talking about standard comedian, everybody from Saudi to the states, everybody is stand up because it is the place where you know you meet and you have a good time. In my book, I'm not talking about stand up and I'm not going about humor. But this, this, when you are in a community, you see, stand up is a community. Even stand up, I met so many different people in the night here in Dubai, because Dubai wakes up at 10 in the morning and sleep at 4am I sleep at 5pm at 5am so but I found a new community, and there are so many different nationalities, it's amazing. So the first, the first advice I can tell you is, go out there. What can happen to your wars, what? Nothing,
Greg Voisen
right? Yeah. And you, you talk about, and I don't want to you say Salaam.
Sheryn Knaider
Did I say it? Right? No, we don't say, we don't say some. We say in Arabic,
Greg Voisen
Salama, Alaikum. So his name, the in this in the story, Salim. Salim, okay, so Salim, you, you intertwined this. You talked about it a little bit earlier in the book. How do you see this balance between holding on to what you refer to as cultural heritage you were just talking about it the various ways you've been influenced as a person with all these things from your father and not having to weigh it, wear a veil, and all of the other things that are going on and embracing change, both in the book and in your personal life, because, look, you're there. One thing we know is change is constant. It's steady. But when people resist change, which you haven't obviously, you've written a great book here, and you're you're somebody who has lived beyond the adversity and has embraced change. What would you tell people out there today who are dealing with huge changes, like you have been to try and embrace them?
Sheryn Knaider
Okay, you know this famous quote you have in English, the only constant in
Greg Voisen
life is change. Good. That's what I
Sheryn Knaider
just said, Yep, yeah, exactly. But I will go further. The only constant in life, guys, are problems.
Greg Voisen
Okay, yeah,
Sheryn Knaider
I agree. Problems. I'll finish problems are only a change of situation. So if you so in life, you will have, every day or not, you will have a sort of problem, challenge, issue, name it. It's not important. It's not relevant. But the thing that comes and disturb your tranquility, tranquility of the day, you call it a problem, right? You call it stress. But that new nouvelle Duni, that new thing that happened in your life, it is a new reality. It's, I call it your reality. A challenge enough, nothing else than in your reality. You had a reality before, then this problem came, and then you have another reality. If you think that way, if you think that what is happening to me is a lesson somewhere work, what can I What? What can I get out of it? Don't victimize yourself. I mean, who's going to help you? No one will. And believe me, nagging. People hate people who are nagging, but people don't like people who are smiling too as
Greg Voisen
always, I've been smiling too much during the podcast, because you're so animated. I love you that way. You're perfect. So I have a question for you. You know, we in the book, you basically, you delve into the psychology of facing setbacks. So you call it a problem with positive attitude. You're saying, Okay, I have a set book, but I want to look at this positive attitude. That's what we've been talking about. What role do you believe that the mindset plays in overcoming life challenges? Because you're somebody who's studied a neuroscience. You're a neuroscientist. You just said, when you wake up in the morning and you complain, you're programming your subconscious, and that's exactly what you're going to get. So how did was it overcome? And can you share your personal mantra or approach for this? If you would, you must have some mantra, because I know when I wake up before my feet hit the bed, I or the ground, I do gratitude. I do all these I'm grateful for the morning. God, thank you for having me wake up this morning and have this day, whatever that may be. And I think a lot of people with just a little bit of gratitude and a mantra could really help them get through the day. What? What is? Sharon's
Sheryn Knaider
okay, if I was, if I got here doing so many different things in my life, is because I hate being a victim. This is one okay, and that is super important as a mindset. It is too easy to do the victim. It's too easy, and I hated the fact that people would see me as the small of four. So I have three brothers, male. I was the fourth one. I had to go behind my brother's shoot, motorbikes, everything dangerous. I never said no, because I never wanted them to consider me as being the weak person, right? So from that moment, I understood that the mindset does it all. If somebody tell me it is difficult, and I said, You know what? Let me try. You will see it's not difficult. I just this is me. So in the morning, what do I do? You do gratitude? When I wake up in the morning, I do Transcendental Meditation. Ah, good.
Greg Voisen
I wake
Sheryn Knaider
up before doing my transition. I there is something that happens at 445, 30 in the morning. You don't know why the my mind start hitting ideas, but the best one ever like during the whole night, we say in French, let me Porto con say the night give you advices. Okay, so at four in the morning, the first time I wake up, I have the solutions of so many things. It can be for the professional speaking, it can be for my speech, so I have to write down. But I don't write down anymore because I don't recognize my my writing. So I, what I do is I repeat it many times the idea. I record it so have a recording.
Greg Voisen
I record everything, very smart, and then
Sheryn Knaider
for like, half an hour or an hour, boom, boom, boom, boom, it comes. It's, it's floods in, oh, my god, stop them. Okay, you have
Greg Voisen
to stop them. Well, I have them, and I know it. I know some people who are trying to meditate, they say, Well, that's the monkey mind, right? Because that's the term that's used the monkey mind, because it just goes from one thing to the next thing, the next thing. And I tell people, you know, because they want to get beyond that, to get into a deep meditation, you have to let that come in. You can't resist it. It's it's there. It's telling you you're being informed. You have to believe that it's important let it come through. Then just keep deep breathing. And in your case, you're recording it on a tape recorder, it sounds like that you've got by your bed or wherever you go, which is really, which is really good, you know? And I, I want to get to this, because people are probably sitting here now saying, After 20 minutes of listening to us, well, so why is this book called The hummus strategy? And you see throughout the story, you know you said food symbolizes comfort, identity and resilience. What does the hummus represent to you personally? And I know I want to mention this because you now have created how many
Sheryn Knaider
recipes in the book? No, it's not only for hummus. There are recipes for life or nine. Nine
Greg Voisen
recipes, nine recipes. But I wanted to mention it, because for the listeners, in the upper right hand corner, you'll see that little red thing, and she's actually got that there. So what does this hummus represent to you personally, and why do you choose it as a central metaphor in the book? Why hummus? Okay? Because
Sheryn Knaider
people eat a lot of hummus. Yeah, but no, no, I'll get to the hummus. Let me just finish. You asked me one question after one. Record my my thoughts, which are a lot and believe you are the best one in the day. I close my eyes after this, boom, boom. You know this flow of ideas, I close my eyes. I meditate. I am no, I know that I will not have them, even if the some ideas come, I just threw them back out, because I know that I recorded them, and then I sleep the best ever deep sleep in my life, 20 minutes when I wake up, as if I slept The whole night. I know my ideas are. Here I go shower, and then I go to swim. Swimming is the one thing that you're detached from. Everything you swim for 2k one hour. You have ideas, but then you have to have a discipline. It can be running, it can be painting. It can be if you want to have a good attitude in life, you want you want to be positive, you want to have a good mindset. Sorry to tell you, you have to have a discipline. The only thing that get me out of depression, because I had depression, like everybody, I'm human from my injuries, from whatever you want, is a very disciplined it's a hygiene of life. And food is the most important thing. If you eat rubbish, I'm not going to name the things you have in the states, these processed food, you're killing yourself. So if you start with non processed food, if you have a mindset, saying is Shireen coming from Lebanon, she did it at her age, so many things, and she did it and without any money or any, you know, any people helping me. I did it by myself. If I can do it, anyone, can anyone, and I'm very, I'm very serious about that. So why hummus in the book? Because it's not only a metaphor. No, it's not. I am actually truly talking of hummus as a story in my book with Salim,
Greg Voisen
why did I choose food?
Sheryn Knaider
Because everybody likes to eat. Why would I choose food? In a business book, everybody told me, You are bold. You are bold. In a business book, you have a story, and then you have a small business. And then in between, you have recipes. And at the end, I have a terminology of Arabic, which is fun. And I told them, can you imagine the one thing that everybody is around, apart, gossiping, it's food. We need food to live, and hummus, by chance, is something that we not invented, but Lebanon is one of the most actually, in my book, I speak about, did you know that we have the biggest record in the world in 2009 about the biggest hummus ever with a huge plate done by my neighbor who passed away a year ago. He has these in the Guinness Book four times it is 10,452 kilos of hummus.
Greg Voisen
Wow, that's a lot of chickpeas, exactly,
Sheryn Knaider
anyway. So hummus is, you go to Australia, you go to the States, you go to everywhere. Now they do hummus which there is not even chickpea inside, just it's like the taboo. Our Tabbouleh is parsley, their Tabbouleh is is something else anyway, so hums, I think in in the story, I explained to you why I use hummus, because if I tell you, then I will
Greg Voisen
spoil the whole book. All right, we will leave it at that. We'll say that it so at this, this journey that that solemn is taking involves both this, what we call the tangible and the intangible investments in his business. This is a business book, right? And so we want to get to the business side of it. But business is personal. It's very personal, and it's all about your personal growth. And my show is about how people can grow from all these experiences that you've related and how they become more resilient, right? So how do you differentiate between investing in yourself, which is what you've done a lot of, versus your ventures, and why is it important or, I think people, and you hit this nail on the head for people to nurture both, yes, because the reality is, you want, if you don't grow, your business isn't going to grow. It's that simple. But if you grow and you're a Constant Learner, my show attracts people who are seekers, people who are looking to change things in their lives for the better. Those are the people that listen to this show and they're seeking new ways to do that. Why do you think that this investment in their self and in their venture needs to be both nurtured?
Sheryn Knaider
Okay, you know that I'm a coach
Greg Voisen
too and a trainer. Yeah,
Sheryn Knaider
I know you are. I told you I had many lives. I studied baby, swimming, handicap in water, everything related to water, because I love water, because my kids were small and they were one two years, and no activity at that age, of course. So I said, why not? I went to Italy, I went to France, and I learned, and I got back with this, with this knowledge, and I like to share. Sharing is super important. So from that to Italian restaurants to to architecture, I was an architect. Can you imagine, when I was in Milano and Paris, doing, stepping into passions, okay, things you like, you would learn something. And you know what, even if at the end of the day or the experience, you will not become the lawyer, because you did four years of law, you will always learn something. Me, at my age, after all these years, everything that I did and so different today, have a reason. It's the puzzle. It's like creating this. For example, I'm telling you I like to do stand up comedy. Comedy, you will tell me what stand up comedy doing an architect with food business. Well, guess what? My book is all about, that it's all about mixing all these knowledges. You first, you fulfill yourself as a person, new communities, new people. And you don't know why, but at a certain point it makes sense. You feel alive. You are discovering new things about you, about you, and then, if you don't become the expert in being a lawyer, one day, what you learned will come at your door, and you will be the person that people will come to you, you'll be the expert. So basically, what I would love to say to your community and your listeners is it's not because somebody told you it's difficult, that you will not be able to do it. I was born in this late 60s in the Middle East, a girl, and they told me, You're not a boy. You will not go far. You have to have a fine, nice husband. Have a nice marriage, have nice kids, even if it betrays you, because all men do keep the husband.
Greg Voisen
Well, you didn't do that either.
Sheryn Knaider
So I did exactly the opposite. But this is it. If you and I'm gonna tell you something social media, they're good at one point, but they destroy your life. You're there trying to survive, trying to get the money, trying to get the contract, and then you swap a sweep, and then you see a guy did it like this, I said, Okay, I can do it. So social media, in a hand is good, and another one not so,
Greg Voisen
no, it's a mixed message. I get that, and I know even me having had a podcast show for 17 years, because you're comparing, I want to move aside the comparison, because we are individual souls on this planet with our own unique DNA, and we're here for a reason and a contribution, and as soon as people get that now, the other thing that I would say is, as you were mentioning, is that We we have this power inside of us to really kind of overcome all of these things. And I'm looking at all of the stuff you've overcome in your life, and your book, if you want to hold it back up again, I would like to let my listeners know, gives you the strategies, right? And this book, we're going to put a link to it on Amazon for the listeners. There she is and and you can buy it off the Amazon. But Sharon, what I'd like to know is, after all we've said about hummus and its metaphor and the importance of food and you being so curious, you're an extremely curious individual. Most entrepreneurs are curious. No, they're looking here, they're looking there. They're looking ways to solve the problem. And I always say this about this one author who was on here about connecting the dots. You know, after you have all these experiences, you have the ability to connect the dots and see into the future, right? You can't initially predict it, but you can see what's potentially coming, and you can prepare yourself. What message do you hope the readers will take away from your character's journey in the hummus strategy, especially how they approach their own lives, challenges and adversities and anxieties and stresses and opportunities. What do you want the reader to ultimately say, Hey, I read this book, and by the way, this is what this gave me.
Sheryn Knaider
Okay, you know, I in the book, I speak about mental health issues, right? It's all connected. When you have a strong community, you might not have huge issues on a mental health why community help you to speak up when you're alone and you just, you know, think about your problems. We all have problems, guys, we always will. It's the way you see it. Every time I have a problem, I try, for example, for example, I lost all my videos on my phone, all of them because I tried to take them out from a device which I had only 64 Giga on the line. And I don't know why they disappeared. I have like, 10,000 small videos, 10,000 Okay, is it a problem? Yes, my life. Oh, my God. You know what? I didn't say anything to no one. Why I'm alive. I'm good. I'm fine. I can do new ones. Hell, the other ones. Okay, I will, you know, I don't have any footage of what I did in my life, but it's so you see. It's the way you see it. It's the mindset. What I want people to to, to feel, to feel is that, guys gratitude to everything you do, from the food on the table to the friends you have to the parents if you have them, cherish them, love them, hug them, and I mean love with a big L and gratitude. That's the only thing I can tell you. And in the book you will find it. You will find it because the equation to apply. Tomorrow you have a problem. Try to apply the equation, the formula in your life, you will see, and it starts with the A, and that's I'm going to tell you attitude, the attitude towards life is okay. You want to know my quote. I love it. Attitude is your responsibility. Take ownership and don't blame it
Greg Voisen
on others. You know there was a famous speaker here in the United States. You probably know him because you're in the speaking community and his name, and I used to go because I'm old enough to have gone physically and seen him. Zig Ziglar, and he says, it's your attitude that determines your altitude, not your aptitude. Yes, it's your attitude that determines your altitude, not your aptitude. So if attitude is everything, which I would concur with you that it is a big portion, as a matter of fact, some of our bigger Employers today, for these kids that are growing up and coming out of college, they're really looking for experiences more than they're actually looking for the degree they're saying, Have you gotten your hands dirty? Have you been a dishwasher? Have you dug in the dirt? Have you done all of these things? I was listening to a billionaire hires him, and he says, we're hiring people who have the experience, not the ones who just have the pedigree degree from the University. And you're that's what you're all about, Sharon, and I really like that and appreciate about that. And again, hold the book back up one last time for
Sheryn Knaider
our listeners, so that I would like to find a a publishing house,
Greg Voisen
there we go. So this is the hummus strategy. And Sharon, thank you so much for being on with our listeners today. Thank you for everything you've contributed to the energy that you've brought through the Zoom call is infectious. People can see that. They can see why you're such a good public speaker, and I appreciate you sharing your personal story along with some of your stories in the book as well. And I think for our listeners again, go to the website. It's Sharon, S, H, E R, Y n, k n, a, i, d, e r.com, there, if you go to the book section, you can actually download a free chapter of the book. There you can learn more about her events. She's got a blog and topics in the home, and you can sign up for the newsletter. She's got a newsletter as well. So right at the top of the website, you'll see that Sharon, thank you for your great energy. Your history. Yep, go ahead.
Sheryn Knaider
One thing I want to do your gift to your listeners.
Greg Voisen
What's the gift? The
Sheryn Knaider
gift is I, soon as I come back from Bali, I'm going for Bali from the summit of professional speakers, right? I'm going, I'm coming back the sixth of October. I will put online 20 minutes of free consultation. Okay, great. Anyone who wants to speak just to if one question, what's 20 minutes? I'm giving them for free. If I can help, I will. And remember, when you have less, you give more. This is what I'm trying to do.
Greg Voisen
It's about take less, do more. The key is live your life. And I don't say everyone be a minimalist, but look around you and see where you can help other people, whether it's just driving someone home or helping somebody across the street or giving somebody something. I have a nonprofit called compassionate communications. We serve the homeless in the UK Ukrainian refugees. However, you can give of yourself, your time, your resources, your money, whatever it is that you have, please do that. There's so many causes out there. Doesn't matter which cause it is, but that would be my ending statement here and thank you. Namaste to you. Thank you for being on the show.
Sheryn Knaider
Grazie, Mille and smile. Life is short.
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Inside Personal Growth with Greg Voisen · Podcast 1168: The Growth Leader: Strategies to Drive the Top and Bottom LinesIn this insightful episode of Inside Personal Growth, host Greg Voisen sits down with Scott Edinger, a business growth consultant, speaker, and the author of The Growth Leader: Strategies to Drive the Top and Bottom Lines. Together, they explore how businesses can achieve sustained growth through the intersection of leadership, strategy, and sales. In a world where businesses constantly strive for market dominance, Scott underscores a critical message: growth is not just a sales challenge but fundamentally a leadership issue.
Leadership and Sales Alignment: A Key Driver for GrowthOne of the central themes of Scott’s discussion is the need for leadership and sales alignment. Too often, companies focus on the tactical aspects of sales—like closing deals—without acknowledging the strategic role that leadership plays in enabling sales success. According to Scott, growth happens when leaders create an environment where their sales teams are not just selling products but delivering value. This value-driven approach is what differentiates successful companies from those that struggle to grow. Scott poses an important question for business leaders: Are you selling what you want to whom you want, or are you selling whatever you can to whoever you can? The answer to this question determines whether sales efforts are strategic or merely transactional.
In today’s competitive landscape, it’s no longer enough to have an exceptional product or service. Sales teams must be equipped with a clear strategy that aligns with leadership’s vision and organizational goals. The sales process, Scott explains, is essentially the execution of a company’s strategy in the marketplace. Every interaction with a customer or prospect is an opportunity to demonstrate the company’s value proposition. As a leader, it’s your responsibility to ensure that your sales teams are empowered to execute the strategy effectively.
Why Sales Is a Leadership Issue, Not Just a Sales IssueScott is adamant that growth must be viewed through a leadership lens. He challenges the conventional wisdom that sales and leadership are separate functions. In reality, they are deeply intertwined. Leadership sets the tone for how a company approaches the market, and sales teams are the ones who bring that strategy to life in front of customers.
Scott shares an important statistic: only 14% of CEOs are actively engaged with their sales teams. This low level of engagement reflects a widespread belief that sales is not a strategic function but merely an operational necessity. Leaders often prioritize innovation, product development, and finance, while neglecting the importance of sales strategy. However, Scott argues that this mindset is flawed. Sales should be viewed as a critical component of a company’s strategic plan, and executives must actively participate in shaping the sales experience to ensure it delivers long-term growth.
The Butterfly Effect of Leadership ActionsScott introduces the concept of the “butterfly effect” in leadership, where small actions by leaders can have significant downstream effects on sales performance and overall growth. He points out that if leaders are dissatisfied with what they are seeing from their sales teams, the first place to look is in the mirror. The behaviors that sales teams exhibit are often a direct reflection of how they are led and managed.
Scott advises leaders to focus on removing what he calls “sales stigma”—the idea that sales is merely about distribution and not a source of differentiation. By treating sales as a strategic differentiator, leaders can change the way their teams approach the market, resulting in improved performance and greater customer loyalty. It’s about shifting the mindset from distribution to differentiation, where the way salespeople interact with customers becomes a key reason why the company wins deals.
The Five Flags Framework: A Blueprint for Strategic GrowthIn The Growth Leader, Scott introduces the Five Flags Framework, a simple yet powerful tool that helps leaders develop and execute a clear go-to-market strategy. The framework is built around five key questions that every leader should be able to answer:
- What are our objectives?
- What is our competitive advantage (power play)?
- Who is our ideal client profile?
- How does our sales experience create value?
- What do we need to improve, build, or acquire to execute our strategy?
Scott emphasizes that by answering these questions with clarity and precision, leaders can create a strategy that aligns their entire organization around a common goal. This not only drives sales but also ensures long-term, sustainable growth.
Final Thoughts and TakeawaysScott Edinger leaves listeners with two key takeaways from his book:
- Growth is a leadership issue, not just a sales issue. Leaders need to be actively engaged in shaping the sales strategy and ensuring that their teams are delivering a value-driven experience.
- The sales experience is a critical component of competitive advantage. Companies that focus on delivering a differentiated sales experience will be more successful in attracting and retaining customers.
To learn more about Scott Edinger and his insights on leadership and growth, visit his website here and follow him on YouTube, LinkedIn, and Twitter/X. You can also purchase his book The Growth Leader: Strategies to Drive the Top and Bottom Lines on Amazon.
You may also refer to the transcripts below for the full transciption (not edited) of the interview.
Interview Transcipt -Not EditedEmailDownloadNew TabGreg Voisen
Welcome back to another episode of Inside personal growth. This is Greg voisen, the host of inside personal growth. And you are joining us. If I remember correct, it's in Florida. Is that correct? Tampa? Florida? Tampa, Florida, and we have a returning author, Scott Edinger, and Scott has a new book out that we're going to be talking about today, called the growth leader. And the subtitle is strategies to drive the top and bottom line. And I think in the world that we live in today, Scott, this is a very timely topic for all of those people that are growing a business, growing a sales team, and just overall, trying to continue to innovate and keep pace, right? Yeah, and it always is, but it seems a little bit more focused on today, which is why you, I'm going to say this kind of own this space. You're the person who's out there. You did a podcast with us, and we'll let the listeners know, because I'm pulling it up podcast 524 back in July, 2015 and it was called the hidden leader, and you've been writing on this topic for some time, but I'll let my listeners know that clients in the Fortune 500 and across the globe have trusted Scott as a premier consultant for leading business growth. Scott has worked with CEOs and senior leaders to develop pragmatic solutions and execute approaches to drive top and bottom line results. He's written three books and over 100 articles in Forbes and Harvard Business Review, among other prominent publications. As a consultant, author, advisor and speaker, Scott creates positive change for clients and is recognized as an expert in the intersection of leadership strategy and sales. He has all kinds of accolades. You can go up to his website and look up more about him. The book itself does not have a website. Is that correct? Or does it
Scott Edinger
Scott That's correct? Just on my website.
Greg Voisen
Just go to Scott edinger.com, so look, the most important thing here is really, you know, you see people that are, say, their evangelists, or the chief growth officer. There's a lot of people that you know do this. And in your book, you mentioned that the leaders of these organizations overlook the role of the sales organizations and driving strategy. And I would say that's true. Look, you got a marketing department, you got a sales department, you got all these people that are trying to align, how can leaders better align sales with those strategic goals and your estimation, because that's what drives growth. But there are many of other things that drive growth, such as innovation, creativity, all kinds of things. So speak with our listeners about that.
Scott Edinger
Yeah, well, I start with this premise. You know, I've worked in leadership and strategy and sales separately for for years treated as wholly separate areas of focus, but over time, I did start to see more and more that the real power to drive growth lies at the intersection of all three when leaders can think about those three things and consider them together. Leadership at its core, particularly if you're listening and you're part of a commercial organization, you know, some kind of business, the objective is always growth of some kind, right? So there's a lot of ways you can measure that growth from revenue net income to market share, or even measures of customer loyalty net promoter score, but whatever it is, growth of some kind is always the objective for the leader, and if you have even a significant part of that growth coming from a sales organization, then growth and sales are inextricably linked. But too often, executives in particular, as you mentioned, they overlook the role of sales because there is so much else going on. We've got to innovate. We've got to be, you know, strategic about our use of technology. And you know, from from big data to AI and everything in between and market, everything involved in that, but at the core of the issue in the market, every day, hundreds of times, maybe 1000s of times a day, your sales team is responsible for whether your strategy succeeds or fails. Yeah. So leaders have to get very clear on what good looks like in the market. It's not selling anything, and it's not selling to anybody. But being really strategic about our, you know, our, I always like to ask the question, Are you selling what you want to whom you want, how you want, or are you selling whatever you can to whoever you can, however you can, and that, to me, is the real question for leaders to start thinking about, when they think about how they align their strategy with the sales team, because every sales Call could be looked at through that lens,
Greg Voisen
you make an important point. And I mean, I can use a couple of examples. I mean, you think that what drives sales at a top organization like Apple or Patagonia, right? And you look at the sales force, and it's not that they're not doing sales, but they do work really well, most of the time, in harmony with marketing, the marketing departments, which are getting the word out about new products. And hey, we got a new iPhone 16. And, you know, let's drive people in. And the reason it's top of mind is, I was in an Apple store yesterday, and I looked at just the numbers of people that were actually buying new phones. I wasn't buying a new phone. But my point was, it's like, Hey, you have all these sales people standing around just waiting for these people who've been driven in by announcements across the media. So how do you emphasize that growth is the leadership issue, not just a sales issue, because the reality is, is, you know, it, it the leaders in the company have to be really finely attuned to what's going in on those two departments. So why do you think so many organizations focuses primarily on sales tactics, and I'm going to underline the word tactics, yeah, rather than leadership when pursuing growth, because the old way of selling, as we know, is pretty much dead. It's long gone, you know. And as you said, it's not it's not closing the sale it's solving their problems. How do you solve the consumer's end problem, and that makes you a better salesperson? Yeah,
Scott Edinger
well, without a doubt, you brought up a couple of great companies as examples. You being in the Apple Store as a retail example, too. And I think that this is all true in retail, I tend to write it more in the write about it more. Of course, most of my work is in the business to business world where the sales force or sales organization is in the market, proactively pursuing business versus, you know, sort of foot traffic coming in B to C, in the B to B world, this notion of sales being a leadership issue is all about recognizing that sales is the execution of your strategy in the market every day that takes some, takes a little bit of time to pick apart. You know, what do we really mean by that? If you think about your strategy, it's all about what is your competitive advantage? Who is your ideal client profile? How is your customer experience going to differentiate you? And, of course, what objectives are you pursuing? So if that is the heart of any good strategy, then all four of those components, elements, areas of focus, come to life in one place, and it's not at your headquarters, and it's not an internal meetings, it's in customer meetings. So are your sales people with the ideal client profile. You know those kind of clients that you'd love to have, or are they taking the meeting with anybody who's willing to meet with them because they're receptive? Are they engaged in conversations that are focused on the issues that your best products, the solutions you've invested millions, maybe 10s or hundreds of millions of dollars in, are the conversations focused on the issues those products and services can solve, or has it devolved into a pitch or a presentation of what the sales team is comfortable with? Are they creating value in that sales experience or customer experience, or are they doing the the presentation that marketing gave them, and checking the box on that and the results of these sales opportunities? Do they produce the revenue or the profit or the net income or the market share, net promoter score that you want, or are they just trying to get any deal they can? So there's four big areas of strategy. My example there was to highlight every sales call. You could look at those four factors and say, Oh, that either showed up in the sales call or it did not. And when I say, this is a leadership issue, it's not about sales tactics. To do any of that. I mean, there's some sales tactics that, of course, come into play, but this is about how leaders help their sales team understand their strategy and help them understand their role in execution. Every day,
Greg Voisen
it's so well put. I remember an author being on here. She was ahead of commercial sales for Microsoft and broke away and then wrote a book and started speaking. And you know, we were talking about the complexity of the sales cycle of somebody buying Microsoft back end products. So in other words, like we're talking a ten million purchase, right? Not not a million dollar purchase, but a three year sales cycle, and a team of people working on that speak with me, if you would, because, you know, in these much bigger commercial sales, with the potential of two and three year sales cycle to actually get in and sell in a very sophisticated piece of software that's going to Run your everything your company does, including, pardon me, but wiping your butt. Supposedly, it doesn't take much to screw it up, she said. And in the interest you know, who are the competitors to Microsoft, you know, to put in a big system like that. So can you comment on the team selling approach with long sales cycles and the strategy that the leaders must convey to effectively execute to complete a sale at that level.
Scott Edinger
Yeah, well, there's a there's an incredible sophistication in those sales cycles where you're talking about significant B to B, enterprise wide, kinds of solutions, right? So, I mean, let's first and say, here's what it's not, which is, you know, you talked about the old way of selling being dead. It is not a single salesperson showing up and doing a pitch or a presentation and saying, here's the contract, roll the pen, close, you know. So the so many of those kind of approaches in a much more sophisticated selling environment do not work. So what is working in that selling environment that is all about strategy. It is all about insight and expertise. How do you help customers or prospects to see issues that they hadn't considered, or to see opportunities that maybe, that they maybe they saw the opportunity but they didn't realize just how significant it was, or the same on the unintended consequences of a problem where you're able to help them see, oh, well, that is massive. We need to do something about that. It has so much less to do with the actual solution or thing being sold and in a real consultative sale, particularly anytime you're in I'll call it a somewhat of a commodity market. I mean, software is somewhat of a commodity market, even when there's something unique and out, it's not but a year until, maybe less until something else can do pretty much the same kind of thing. So when you are in those kinds of sales, the sale is much less about what you are selling versus how you are selling, and that how is all about insight and expertise, and where do you create value in helping customers to think differently about their issues and therefore take different actions? And that's what that kind of selling is all about. Whether it be one year, three year, frankly, it might even be just a few weeks and have that kind of impact, but the nature of the sales cycle is about those things not let me tell you how good what we have to offer is.
Greg Voisen
So look, you mentioned in the book and and I've been doing a little research with, uh, Chief growth officers, right? It's like it's not a new title, but it certainly hasn't been a title that's been around for a long time.
Scott Edinger
And you inspired by the growth leader, of course, by
Greg Voisen
you, that's it, by Scott. So you highlight that only 14% of CEOs are strategically involved with their sales team. Now look, we've been talking for the last 10, last 10 minutes here about, hey, it's a strategic game, and you got to be involved in it. But now you're saying, Well, there's only about 14 to 15% of the of the executives, of the CEOs that are engaged in that. What can CEOs do to become more engaged with the Salesforce to ensure that they're focused on sustained growth within their organization. Yeah,
Scott Edinger
well, I'd, I'd start with under I think you gotta understand why so few, like only 14% you know what? 86% that means are not strategically engaged with their sales organization. And in the book I write about this topic called sales stigma, right, this set of around culture and the beliefs that shape people's behavior, and there's a widespread set of beliefs among executives, in particular, with no criticism to any one function. But among executives in particular, there is a belief that sales is not a strategic function, that the strategic functions are about innovation and creating great new products and and and services and using AI and big data and analytics and marketing. And then, of course, you know, we gotta be strategic about our finances and, you know, managing capital and everything. And then sales. I just need to get them the hell out there to sell, you know, like, go meet with as many people as you can, be personable, pitch the products, tell them how great we are, and we'll get, you know, so there's a sense that sales is not strategic. It's not that executives don't view it as important. Don't hear that, right? It's viewed as critical, but not strategic, because historically, sales hasn't been as sophisticated a function. It was much more reliant on personality. I think if you look at everything about how sales has evolved, whether it's been extraversion or, you know, different kinds of motivation among sales people. It's often been about personality, not strategy, and that has changed. The examples we talked about in the software sale earlier are evidence of that. So that would be the why. If I think about, you know, 14% of executives engaged strategically, why are the other 86% not? It's because of that kind of stigma. So if I start there, then you know, the second part of your question is, is like, what do they need to do in order to engage more strategically? And that is, that begins with one fundamentally important element of competitive advantage, and that is this, the sales experience is a decision factor in the business to business sales cycle, and the percent of value of that decision factor, based on the research you want to look at is somewhere between 25% and 53% of the buying decision. So if you're conservative, say it's a quarter per a quarter of the buying decision, then a quarter of the Reason customers choose you is based on the sales experience. That is the experience prospects have with your company before they actually become a customer. So the first thing for CEOs to do to get strategically engaged, is to recognize the sales experience is a can be a source of competitive advantage. It is, without a doubt, a point of decision criteria. So if you start there, a lot begins to open up for you in terms of thinking, okay, I can now start to look at sales as a much more strategic function that could inform a wide range of decisions, from who we recruit, how they're managed, how they're paid, how they're developed, how we deploy them in the market, and a lot more. But it starts there.
Greg Voisen
So Scott, you know, you said in the book that 25% of purchasing decisions are influenced by this sales experience. Yeah, okay, alone, that's 25% so one quarter. Why do you think organizations, or I should say the people in the organizations, underestimate the power of this sales experience, as you've just articulated, is such an important part of it. In other words, it's like, hey, we haven't really even been looking at or measuring what the sales experience is. Now I know for a fact that, hey, I'll go to Apple, and with 10 minutes, I get a little survey back. How did so and so do that's B to C. Okay, those little surveys are great, but they're trying to get data. So that's the first part of the question. And the second part of this question leads to this. You know, the world's been revolutionized by predictive analytics and AI at this point. And AI is playing a huge role in sales, and predictive analytics is playing a big role in strategy. Where do I go? What am I going to do? What's the what is it that I'll give you a great example of this. What you want to super good example? Yeah, okay, so I used to be heavily involved in the insurance arena. My homeowners got canceled California wildfires. Couldn't find a carrier that's admitted in the state to take the policy you're now sitting on predictive analytics, where all the carriers pull out of the state, and now they have to get a state fund to do it. Now, here's my example. You actually have to now search down someone to sell you insurance in this state, not have someone calling on you to sell you insurance, because all of the brokers and agents are running the other direction. So you can imagine how much money State Farm farmers and all these big, big, big, big companies have lost, and their predictive analytics tells them do not re enter the market. Same thing. Probably in Florida, do not reenter.
Scott Edinger
Well, I was just thinking that, you know that, right, right? Not wildfires, but hurricanes. Same difference, yeah, yeah. And
Greg Voisen
question for you is this, look, that's a huge sales. That's billions of dollars. You have Salesforce. You got people all over the country. And I know I'm getting off base here a little bit, but not so much. Decisions are being made by executives as a result of an indicator that says we don't want to play in that market anymore. We're closing it down. Right? Yeah. So what would you say about the sales experience that you just referred me to, like, say, hey, that's 25% of the where the purchasing decision is there's absolutely no sales experience anymore, because you can't even get anybody to give you an experience.
Scott Edinger
Well, I you know the topic of insurance notwithstanding, Ross buckmiller, the CEO of pure insurance, who's a client of mine and who's in the book, has this really funny quotation from the book says, well, he doesn't say this. I didn't quote him on this in the book, but in the conversations with him, you said, you know, anyone can write hurricane insurance in Florida. You don't need to be great in sales for that, like you gobble it up. So the real question is, strategically, where do you go? That is a sales strategy question. That's that is a little bit different than what you're asking about sales experience. Where it you know, if an organization is choosing not to enter a given market because strategically, they either have enough business there or it's too high risk that that is that has nothing to do with the sales experience. I
Greg Voisen
threw I threw your Zinger there, but I wanted fun one,
Scott Edinger
no doubt.
Greg Voisen
So in the book you write that selling isn't about pitching, you've already said this, or closing the deal or help or but it's about helping customers solve their problems. Okay, well, I had a big problem. Why didn't anyone rush to help me solve the problem? But they weren't. How can leaders train their sales teams to focus on providing value rather than just pushing products? Okay? And then we take a different industry, right? Like you name it, you want to name it. I'm good with it, but I find that still, as a even on a B to B basis, people are not pitching a solution. They're pitching a product, whether it's a new piece of software that will wham o demo, whatever. But no one's really saying, hey, look, I'm going to help you get online. I'll talk to you about this. They're basically saying subscribe, and if you like it great, and if you don't see you later, right? But there are companies that have made billions of dollars with that strategy.
Scott Edinger
Well, that's, that's a completely digital strategy with no, no sales force, right? So, again, they
Greg Voisen
have a sales force in house, but not anybody that picks up their phone.
Scott Edinger
Fair enough. Fair enough. So different go to market models call for different approaches. But what you'd said about solving problems, right? The sales experience of doing that versus a pitch, this is not a new idea. This is where I get, like, a little bit surprised that the conversations still need to occur, because the ideas of consultative selling and solution selling and the value based sale have been around for over 40 years. Been talking about these things for a long time. It's not like we don't know this. It's not like anybody who's got any kind of education, even a broader business education, couldn't tell you about a consultative sale or a solution sale. So I got very interested in this because I spent a decade in the sales training industry. I joke with clients. It's one of the more frustrating businesses to be a part of, because sales people are always frustrated after programs. They say to us two things they used to say, used to say to us, when I was in this business. Two things. Number one, that was great, but it was way harder than anybody thinks it is. And number two, I'm not managed that way. And then executives would say, hey, we sent them away for a couple of days, and they didn't become spent a lot of money on that. They didn't become totally different sales people. So we we underestimate just how difficult this is as a sophisticated skill set that requires considerable practice and and honing of skills and coaching in order to perform at a very high level. So those people who are selling the mega deals, the big strategic deals, they didn't take a couple of days of sales training and then go do that. So this is a skill set that develops over time and is a lot harder. And if it's not practiced, if it's not coached, if it's not part of the way a company says, This is how we go to market. This is part of our sales experience, how we create value? It becomes very hard for people to do that. It is especially hard when people just feel pressure to make the number for the next quarter. Then, then I promise you any kind of consultative selling or solution focus is out the window. So you ask this important question is like, how do we get them to do this differently? And I think it is so much more about leadership, and how leadership sets the stage for the sales team to say, you are an important part of delivering our value in the market, and the sales experience is part of our strategy to win. So you better go create value, and you better be valuable, not just in what we're selling, but how you're selling. And that becomes part of the way we go to market. I think a big part of it is that, and that's when I say it's a leadership issue. How leaders work with their sales teams, how leaders empower their sales teams to go deliver that not just say, go do some training. Go make the number. So I know that was a mouthful, but no, do you think highlight again? Yeah.
Greg Voisen
Do you think it's part of that in the culture that has been years and years old, is a salary and a commission structure? So normally, in most organizations, when you look at the way they've designed the remit, iteration structure. It's like, Hey, you get a bonus, you get a commission, and you get a and you get a base pay, right? Yeah, it's still to this day, that's what it is. But when you look at strategic selling, and you look at what you're talking about here, and making a huge shift, because the people who you're talking about have to have a high degree of emotional intelligence. They have to be, I mean, I think that word's way overused, but they've got to be right, understanding, empathetic. They have to know how to communicate. They have to communicate with openness and transparency and frankness and all the rest of this stuff. And I think that's what builds what would be really a very excellent salesperson. They have to know how to open ended questions. They have to know how to feel those questions and ask the right questions at the right time. And it's really a lot of psychology, right? It is truly a big, big psychological play. So with that being said, you in the book, you talk about what you are referring to as a butterfly effect, and how small leadership actions can lead to some significant outcomes. Can you share an example of how small leadership changes led to substantial growth in a company that like, hey, all I did was change this and this and it really made an exponential growth.
Scott Edinger
Yeah, you know, I use that example in a couple of different places of you know, the impact of small actions leading to big ones. Of course, we know that is the butterfly effect, but my original use of that in the book was recognizing root cause. You know, say, Oh, this happened because of that. And I often say when it comes to leadership, so much of what if leaders are dissatisfied about what they are getting from sales in the market. Often they will look to sales and either punish sales or try to change sales. When I would say, look in the mirror and look upstream at the cause of the sales behavior, because you are getting from sales what you lead them to and what you manage them to. So that's, I think, an important recognition that if you're dissatisfied with what sales is doing, you may want to look in the mirror, look upstream at how they're being led, managed and directed. And that could have a huge impact. One of the things that you can begin to do differently is to rid your organization of sales stigma. And I use that term again because it's it is, you know, the stigma is sort of powerful in describing the way we think about sales, what we think is required for success in sales, what we think is necessary for a successful sales organization establishes the behaviors that create the culture where sales is either a real differentiator or merely a series of transactions. So a simple one is, instead of thinking about sales as my distribution, I just need them out in the market, pitch and close, do what they need to think about your sales team, your sales organization as differentiation, not distribution, but differentiation, meaning how they interact with clients, could be as much the reason why you get chosen as what you are offered, and just thinking about that can start to inform a wholly different set of behaviors around who you hire, how you compensate them, how you develop them, how you manage them, how you deploy them in the market. If you just start thinking about this differently and shift that mindset from distribution, I just need them as the point of access to differentiation the way they interact is the reason I win or lose, and that will inform a wholly different set of behaviors on the part of the leader and the organization
Greg Voisen
and Scott that will require that those organizations upgrade sales people to a players, to get differentiation because the mindsets that it's usually required to get there. I'm not saying they can't be trained. I don't want to say that, but I do recognize that at the levels we're talking about, on B to B sales, especially either big ticket items in between, ticket items, you need players which are very well versed, very knowledgeable, and are a players. And I want you to talk about your five flags. Start, it offers a framework for driving growth through clear actionable steps. So explain the framework and how leaders can apply it effectively in the organizations. Yeah, you can do this in the Quick, quick method, the Scott quick method, yeah,
Scott Edinger
five flags start is, in short, it is a strategy framework. And the world has no shortage of strategy frameworks and models. One of my favorite quotations. You know, it's like all models are wrong. Some are useful. So So George Box, you know, all strategy models have their areas of incorrectness. Some have utility. I hope that this is useful in the book. I say, if you want to have a clear go to market strategy, you need to be able to answer five key questions with clarity, precision and succinctness, and they're about your objectives, your what I call your power play, which is another way to say competitive advantage. You know, the I would shorten that say, Why do customers choose you get really clear about that. Don't give me a marketing list of 100 things, and you got 20 offices in these places, why customers choose you? There's probably one or two reasons. Who will value that power play or your advantage. You have to be able to get very clear about Who's your ideal client profile, and, most importantly, the universe of potential clients. That is not how often you get distracted by that audience. I add this element in the in the five flag, start the fourth question. The fourth flag, how does our sales experience create value? Answer that question because part of the hypothesis in the whole book is that the sales experience is a differentiator that's often overlooked, and most strategy models don't even mention sales. If they do, it's just about achieving a number. So here I'm saying put the sales experience central in the strategy framework that that question, then the last one in the five flag start bridge to execution. I want you to answer, what do you need to improve, build or acquire? If you're going to execute your strategy, there's probably things you got to get better at than you're doing today, and there's probably things you need that you don't have. You need to create them or go get them. You answer those five questions succinctly and clearly, you will have a very clear strategy for your entire organization to rally around.
Greg Voisen
Those are five excellent questions, and I will say that it's going to require a tremendous amount of thought process and a mind shift for most people that are going to answer those questions truthfully. Okay, so let's, let's be clear that we want to make sure that you're answering them truthfully, not just to answer, oh, well, get them out of the way. I
Scott Edinger
just started, I just started working with a company, and I said, let me see what you currently have for your strategy. And it's over 90 slides. Yeah, first, no strat. There's a lot of stuff here, but nobody knows what this strategy is. So let's refine. Let's get clear. Let's get really precise.
Greg Voisen
Yeah, very, very important point now in kind of wrapping things up, and I want our listeners, we're going to put a link to the growth leader. And as you can tell, as we've been speaking with Scott, the focus here is, as he said, of the sales experience. If you want to improve your B to B sales, I'm going to put my pitch in here. Now go get this book, just for the five flags. Start questions, if you're honest with yourself, and you answer those five flag questions, okay? And then you implement a strategy, as he said in the fifth question, right? You're going to improve your sales experience, no doubt. Okay, so if there's two takeaways that you want readers to remember from the growth leader, what would they be? And if so, how would they implement that in a company that's primarily doing B to B sales, yeah, um,
Scott Edinger
or a couple of them, I'm going to say one definitively. And this is my pounding the fist on the table, kind of moment, sales and growth in an organization in the B to B world is a leadership issue, not a sales issue, but the mere mention of sales like by halfway into this conversation, I bet many executives had the risk of at least tuning out for a moment, because you thought, Ah, my sales team takes care of that. My sales leadership takes care of that. And that is a mistake, because in today's environment, sales is much more a strategic function, requiring strategic leadership from the CR the key executives of the business, and to leave it to sales makes it devolve to a tactical function, and that is a recipe for failure in any kind of sophisticated sales environment. So I would say, don't forget, it is a leadership issue, and you, as the senior leader of the business, need to be involved. You don't need to be the sales manager. I'm not saying to get in the weeds, but you need to recognize it as a strategic function. Think about it differently, and orient your strategy to make that come to life. And that's the second thing that you had asked me. What's the second piece? How do I do it? Use the five Flagstar and focus on the answer to this question. How does your sales experience create value? Your customers are looking at your organization and making the choice. A quarter to half of the decision criteria is based on it, and you have completely missed it in your strategy if you're not answering that question. So answer that question. Take it seriously, and that will change the way you lead
Greg Voisen
very well. Put Scott and for all of my listeners, go to Scott Edinger. There. You're going to see Scott standing in the middle of New York City downtown. It looks like there's a lot of little videos there, but his services, the case studies at the actual organizations that he's worked for, such as AT and T and GTE and Lenovo and all kinds of other ones. More about the book as well. Please check out the book. You can order it from there. You obviously can go to Amazon and order the book. He's got articles as well, lots of well written articles. And Scott, it's been a pleasure having you back on the show again. Right to share about this new book, and obviously your passion. I get why you led a sales organization for 10 years. I can see that in you. I know I go way back. I probably date myself. And one of the simple, I think simple is what it is. People don't know. People don't care how much you know until they know how much you care. That might have been an old Zig Ziglar one. There's another one. It's not your aptitude that determines your altitude, it's your attitude. These are very old, little cliches, kind of deals. But the reality is, even today, in 2024 where we've lost the connection many times because it's either by text or it's by email or, you know, it's whatever it is that we're doing, that personal touch is so, so very important, whether it's on an individual level or at a at a level where we're working with a team, I think you'd probably agree with that. Is that true?
Scott Edinger
Oh, I think you know, everything's about personal connection today. So yeah, the more we use technology to be efficient, the more that personal connection is required for effectiveness. Nowhere do you see that more in leadership, strategy and sales,
Greg Voisen
yeah, and and, most importantly, because you want to make that connection to have a deeper understanding of what the needs are. And frequently, the needs are not conveyed over an email where somebody just says, Here's my email because you haven't had the time to do the inquiry that you needed to do to really find out what the true pain point was. I mean, we could go into hours around pain points and all the rest of that, but we're not at this point. Look at this. Everybody. Go get the growth. Leader, Scott, been pleasure having you back on the show. Thank you, buddy, for being on we like to be here again. Podcast. Yeah, it was fun. Thanks so much.
Scott Edinger
Yeah, my pleasure.
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Inside Personal Growth with Greg Voisen · Podcast 1167: Grace Under Pressure: Leading Through Change and CrisisIn the latest episode of Inside Personal Growth, I had the pleasure of interviewing John Baldoni, an internationally recognized leadership expert, keynote speaker, and author of 16 books, including his latest release, Grace Under Pressure: Leading Through Change and Crisis. John delves deep into what it means to lead with grace in both personal and professional settings, especially in challenging times.
John’s approach to leadership is unique, emphasizing grace as a foundational virtue. His book explores how leaders can maintain their composure, care for their teams, and prepare for future challenges when the pressure is high. In our discussion, we touched on several key points that leaders can adopt to guide their organizations through turbulent times:
- Taking care of your people: John stresses the importance of showing compassion and building community within the workplace. Leadership is about connection and trust, ensuring that your team feels valued and supported.
- Taking care of yourself: Many leaders focus so much on others that they neglect their own well-being. John reminds us that self-care is essential for sustaining long-term leadership.
- Preparing for the future: Strategic planning for what lies ahead is crucial, and it should be done with the input and collaboration of the entire team.
During the podcast, John shared practical advice for maintaining mindfulness and focus during high-pressure situations, highlighting techniques such as meditation, breathing exercises, and situational awareness. He also emphasized the importance of fostering a culture of innovation by driving fear out of the organization and creating psychological safety.
For those interested in diving deeper into John’s philosophies on leadership, you can check out his book, Grace Under Pressure, available on Amazon.
Connect with John Baldoni:
- YouTube
- Twitter/X
John’s powerful message on grace is not just about leadership; it’s about how we show up for others in every aspect of our lives. Whether you’re leading a team or navigating personal challenges, embracing grace under pressure can make all the difference.
You may also refer to the transcripts below for the full transciption (not edited) of the interview.
Interview Transcipt -Not EditedEmailDownloadNew TabWelcome back to another episode of Inside personal growth. This is Greg voisen, and everybody knows me, John on the other side of the screen here. And for those of you who are watching this on YouTube, for those of you who aren't, is John Baldoni, and John's been on the show before. And the book we're going to be talking about today, and I'm going to ask him to hold it up, is a book called grace under pressure. And the subtitle of that, John
is leading through change and crisis. So
all right, and believe me, we all have fallen into change management projects, which a lot of them, they don't go much of anywhere, because, literally, they, they kind of get stomped out, but I'm going to let them know a tad bit about you, John from your buyout, your website. For all of my listeners want to know more, go to John Baldoni, and that's J O, H n, b, a, l, D, o n, i.com there. You can learn more about his speaking, his coachings, his books, and you can contact him, and you can get in touch with him. You also can see some of his videos up on YouTube. He's very active. So John is an internationally recognized keynote speaker. He's the author of 16 books which have been translated into 10 languages. He just certified master corporate executive coach who works with senior leaders in corporate nonprofit and university environments. He provides performance based coaching and leads positive behavioral change, enabling individuals to lead more professionally with greater grace under pressure, John focuses on what it takes to lead with compassion, commitment and courage. He said, also provides executive advisories, advisory services related to vision, strategy, change, communications and people development. As I said, this is 16 books. It's also the author and the host of two online leadership courses, leading through change in crisis and leading with resilience and grace for methods of leaders. And John's leadership resource website is again at John baldoni.com Well, John, pleasure having you back again to grace our channel with this. You have your own podcast, and people can look for him out there as well. But tell us a little bit about you know you've written, is it three books now about grace, yes, and this, this is the third, and I'm always interested as to why, personally, you believe race, both in your personal life and professional life, as you've coached people, has been such a valuable tool.
Well, thank you.
Yes, grace under pressure is my third book on the topic. The first top the first book was called grace, a leader's guide to a better us. The second book was a series of reflections based on more my first experiment into poetry called grace notes about things that leaders could do in in times of crisis. And I call it leading an upside down world. This new book, grace under pressure, leading through change in crisis, is about an expanded view of grace, and as we know the word grace under pressure, most of us have heard that, and I have discovered that it came from a phrase that Hemingway used in a letter to Dorothy Parker, who was a fellow writer and active writer and a member of the Algonquin group in New York and all that. And John Kennedy's speechwriter, Ted Sorensen, discovered that letter when he was putting together the book for John Kennedy called profiles and courage. And what they both meant by the phrase grace under pressure is basically in our parlance, Greg keeping it together when the heat's on. And, yeah,
that's a good way to put it, keeping it together when the heat's on. Many people lose it.
Well, it's a very human reaction, you know, when things get stressful, you know, I mean, you're in based in San Diego, so I know, you know a lot of military folks, and they will tell you, you can tell a good commander, because when the heat's on, the his or her voice goes down and they speak more slowly. So that's the way they kind of keep it together. So
that's good. Now, you know, in the PROLOG highlights that good leaders do you say do three things during a crisis, you know? So hey, look in There's levels of intensity of crisis, and it depends on how you look at it. And you say, take care of their people themselves and prepare for the future. So those are the three things, all right, so I'll repeat it, take care of their people themselves and prepare for the future. Can you discuss the challenges leaders face balancing these three priorities. Because in our world, which is moving very quickly and rapidly, I think people are attempting to figure out ways to keep up, but they're also feeling very uncertain. What how would you help them?
Well, I say the first thing is to take care of your people, because you're not going to grow the organization. You're not going to survive if people are distracted and unfocused. And so my view of grace, and it's evolved over time, and it becomes quite comprehensive, and it's it's a matter of courage, it's candor, it's compassion, and then, most importantly, it's connection. And what connection builds is community. And so if we think of the idea of community, we're bonded together working toward a universal purpose. I mean a common purpose with a vision that that is our lodestone. And then we have our mission, which is what we do, and we have our values that hold us together. Community is how we connect to one another. Now that doesn't mean that we all think or act alike, and gosh, we hope we don't, because that's a form of group thinking. That's how we really get in trouble. If everybody, Hey, you agree with me, I agree with you, so we must be right. Well, maybe not so, so take care of your people. Demonstrate that you care about them. Be with compassionate it can it's the one on one connection. A good colleague of mine, Ron Carucci, talks about presence, and he says presence is something that is felt. And so when the leader is there, giving of themselves, people feel that people know that he or she's the real deal. It's kind of like, if you'll allow this, uh, metaphor, you know when dogs sense when someone is afraid of them and they get skittish. So the dog same with people. If we know people are being insincere with us, we don't get skittish, but we don't believe them, and so you need to be have that genuine connection to that. The next thing is to take care of yourself and to be very candid. I think that's what leaders do the weakest job of. And it's not because they're because they're outward focused. That's the nature of leadership in so many ways. So they short themselves, and in doing so, they don't give themselves the time to regrow and generate and things like that. And then the third thing is more the metaphor the business equation, prepare for the future. Okay, what are we going to do next? And that shouldn't be a solo exercise. It should be bringing people together. Excuse me for common purpose.
So that being said, those are the three things that somebody could do during a crisis, especially a leader. And I get that, you know, those are so important. Do you have a particular story or client John, where you helped coach an executive team through a crisis situation and help them get to the other side? And if so, what were the common characteristics and thoughts and perceptions that these people had during this crisis? Well, I've
worked with a lot of organizations. They're going through change and to a degree, crisis, and what I noticed is that those that survive trust their leader because the leader has given them a reason to trust him or her. They know that they have their back, the leader has their back, and when that occurs, they want to pull together, and they will do what they can within their in a framework to make things happen so and then it's also the signals that the leader sends out. I do know from, you know, the the financial crisis of 2008 you know, some people really lost it, and they, you know, got all six ways to Wednesday on that. And that sends a dark signal to the organization. I do remember a situation coming in when I was working with an organization that was about, there was, there was a rumor that there was going to be a merger, and so we, you know, the senior person came into the room and talked about what was happening, and the way he addressed it, he said, You know, we've all been through different changes. None of us know exactly what's going to happen next week or whatever, but I want you to know I'm there for you, and if you want me to come and talk to your people, these were a group of managers, he said, let me know. I'll come in and talk, and I'll take all the questions. So it's a simple act. It's being out there, and that's a sense of authenticity. It's sincerity, putting yourself on the line so people know that you care. And it's that connection,
I think it's so important. It is usually the simple little things that can make a huge difference, like being there for somebody and not shutting your door and really clearly listening and having inclusion and all these little things that add up to make a big difference, because people feel they're being heard and understood. They feel like you're compassionate and you are, because those are the kind of things that make a compassionate person. So you know, you suggest the importance of being present. Now, this is a good one, and that's what I just talked about when I said that. How can mindfulness practices help leaders maintain the focus under pressure? And can you share some techniques or practices that you've helped implement that have been effective in helping people stay present and centered during stressful situations? I mean, I remember cin Delaney. Look at, I have this on my desk. It's here every day, all the time. John, be here now and send Delaney, which was a leadership training company used to basically, they were big, and that's one of their statements from Mr. Delaney, I think it was, I can't remember who, yeah,
well, it is mindfulness at its core. Greg, as you know, and all the many guests you've had who have spoken about it, it's pretty simple. Doing it is the challenge, and so meaningfulness be in the moment. I bifurcated a bit when as individuals, being in the moment means being aware of who you are, what you can do and your situation, and taking things in. You can do that through breathing techniques. Meditation is a great discipline for it. Many people find it in exercise or yoga, those types of things. Then there's a situation. I call it leadership mindfulness, if you will. It's, it's what the military would call situation awareness, what's going on at the time. And there's a wonderful mantra that I have adopted that it was in a book called Hope is not a method. It came out about 30 years ago, and in it a quote. It was by military gentleman and a general whose name escapes me, but the model came from Colonel Hal Moore, who was commanded us forces in the I drank Valley in Vietnam in 1965 and they encountered a severe firefight, and during the time they simply was since written up as a book, we were soldiers once and young by Joe Galloway, but he profiled talked about how Colonel Moore, at times, was seen to quote, they were in a 36 hour firefight. At times, seemed to withdraw from the action. And what he was doing is going through this mantra, what's happening, what's not happening, and what do I need to do to influence the action? So, what's happening, what's not happening, what do I need to do to change things? And so that's a good mantra that I have written about, but I've also taught it a lot. It is a form of mindfulness, so you can pretty much understand what's going on. Okay, what's not going on requires some thinking, and then what do we do next? Is it me that must do something, or is it members of my team that have to get involved, or is it a collaborative thing? Generally, it's a collaborative thing, but it's thinking through so what's happening not happening, and what do we do to change the outcome? Very
good points. I think that's worth the whole podcast, because if people can get into a mindfulness practice and look at it that way with those three simple questions as a mantra, they literally can then work through the crisis, the situation, the issues now you explore in this book, the emphasis and the need for innovation. Now everybody's trying to innovate, and it is look, if you I think, if you don't have a separate team that innovates, the everything gets mixed up. And I'll just state that, because there has to be a team that's dedicated to that. And I know some companies are too small to have a dedicated team, but the reality is, then, at least bring them aside someplace and give them an opportunity to be able to do that. How can leaders foster a culture of innovation that prepares their organization, in your estimation, for future challenges? Right? Because this is how you can meet some of those challenges. You also can oftentimes innovate your way out of it. And as Rita McGrath said, it also helps you see around the corners, because you're looking to the future and you want to bring it back to the present, you got to say, Well, how do I connect the dots? Right?
Well, you won't go wrong following Rita McGrath, Rita McGrath's advice. So I think let me tell the first thing you do, you don't get up in front of the organization, pound the table and say, We need to be more innovative. The opposite, which is a friend and person I've learned a great deal from and profiled in some of my writing called Rich. His name is Rich Sheridan, the founder of Menlo innovations, which is a software development company and rich talks about, if you want people to innovate, you have to drive fear out of the organization. Part of that is psychological safety, making it that people making it safe for people to feel that they can belong, contribute, voice their ideas, disagree with one another, all of those kinds of things. So also celebrate the concept of creativity. I like to think of innovation as very often it's we like to think of it as the big breakthrough. Well, big breakthroughs really aren't all that common if you look at history of business, but small breakthroughs happen 1000 times a day around the world. So it's processes improvement. It's doing things with less, taking out steps, adding things, bringing in new people. It's, it's a it's an open innovation begins with the creativity, but it's an openness to experiment, and it's that openness for leaders to listen. Okay, and listen, listen, listen, at the same time, you have to be discriminate. So if I come to you with an idea, a clever idea, that I might have, Greg and you're my boss, I You're obligated, I would say to listen to me. You are not obligated to inch and to enact my idea, which might be wacko, but on the other hand, you want to make it safe for me to keep thinking and to be participatory and to collaborate and to put, you know, create an organization where one plus one equals 357, whatever. You know, we grow exponentially. So I think innovation begins with a spirit and celebration of creativity, but also that sense of different people. I mean, you know, surround yourself with people who think differently from you. And when we do that, you know, we think, Oh, geez, I never kind of thought of that, that perspective, but that might be an avenue. So those are the kinds of things I would promote. Greg,
it's a it's I think that you and I would think that most companies, you know, when you're innovating, it's so important to give people, as you said, I'm going to repeat this. You have to remove the fear within the organization or within the group that's there. You have to give them space, meaning you can't demand immediate innovation, because it takes time to create something, including a solution. And you have to give them time to think, as you said, made me thinking process. I love that. Franklin Covey, Stephen Covey, used to give signs to all of his people and put it on the door, put, I'm thinking, you could stick it out there. So it's not that I'm doing. I'm thinking. A lot of organizations, they don't give people time to think, you know, it's just do, do, do we've got to get this done. And I think it's so important that we provide that kind of time, that space for that and that leads me to this, you know, in preparing for the future, you mentioned the importance of listening before deciding, how can leaders ensure they are truly listening to their teams and stakeholders, especially when quick decisions are necessary. Well,
when quick decisions, you sort of can pull the room and get ideas that way. And I'm talking about sort of a crisis situation, for example, if you're an IT manager and the system goes down, you don't have a lot of time to really, you know, do the issues, but you can go through, what do we do? What do we do? What should we do? Check the boxes kind of thing. So those are crisis moments, and I when we're thinking about a big change or things to do, that's where you want to be deliberative, and that's where the leader needs to get out of the bubble, both organizationally and intra organizationally and extra organizationally in the sense of, talk to different people, embrace people in the sense of, what are your ideas? Talk to all levels of the organization and insist that your managers do that same kind of thing and also mix and mingle outside of the organization. You know, I think it was Tom Peters who said something decades ago about about conferences. And he said, you know, you can learn if you, if you're in the plumbing supply business, and you go to a plumbing supply conference, you're all on the same wavelength. But if you're in plumbing supply and you go to a nuclear physics lecture or something, you might learn something completely different that might spark your imagination. So in other words, mix it up, and you we can do that. You know, through how we socialize with others, conferences, we attend all of these things, so we we're exposing ourselves to new ideas. And again, it gets back to the process of inclusion. Look to hire people who are different from ourselves and have different backgrounds, because they will bring a different perspective. We do this generationally. You know, I'm an aging baby boomer and and I don't know what's on the minds of Gen Z, but I would be willing to listen to them on what their perspective is, and we need to do that with all kinds of people. Listen to the voices. What are they telling you? And every idea or every opinion is not valid. It's all deserves to be heard, but we don't have to act on it. But I think from a leader's standpoint, we need to respect the voices in our organization.
Yeah, that's inclusion, and I think that when you include people, at least they feel they're part of helping solve a bigger problem or an issue, they've been heard and you know, I think that's what most people want. They want to be heard and listened to. You know, in your book, you describe grace as the virtue that permits all other virtues, because it is something that touches our hearts as well as our spirit. So I totally concur with that, because when you're at Grace, I'm going to use another word, you're at peace. You've you've really been able to walk through the middle of a tornado and walk out the other side and not have been hurt, but at the same time you're doing it with a strength, there's almost like an energy that comes, and it's comes from a different source. I think it comes from a spiritual source, because that's the only place you can have all these other virtues, right? The ego doesn't generate that. Is a matter of fact, when you're in ego, you're usually just on the opposite side of that. So how can leaders integrate the concept of grace into their overall leadership philosophy? And what impact does this integration, in your estimation, have on its effectiveness? This is your third book on Grace. So obviously you have a really strong belief that if somebody can find peace, find what I call productive harmony. You know, work in a space of being totally harm harmonic. Do it without conflict. Try and do it with ease that it makes everything else in the organization go that much more gracious. Now we know that's a perfect world. It isn't ever going to happen exactly that way, but how would you say this is helping me and every other listener improve our effectiveness and also improve our level of compassion. Great. I
would Excellent question. It's a deep thought, and so I would say the first thing, and I'm I don't know that I've quite said it this way, but first of all, show yourself grace. Give your understand your strengths and your shortcomings, acknowledge that you're not perfect. That's a sense of vulnerability. It's also a sense of humility. And when we in a sense, also we're giving ourselves us a break. Okay, I'm, you know, I'm taking one step forward, and sometimes I slip back once in a while, but I'm committed to moving forward so you're showing yourself some grace. When you do that, you give yourself that permission to treat others as you are treating yourself. And I like your concept of grace being a sense of peace. It is an inner calm, but grace is if we talk about grace under pressure, it's under fire. Take examples of the of the great civil rights leaders of the 1950s and 60s. They went through tremendous turmoil and heat and fire and danger and all of these things. They had an inner sense of peace, but they were operating in what we do, our parlance is conflict zones, so that, but they treated others as they wish to be treated with a sense of goodness and connection. And I think it comes down to reaching out. And I'm glad you touched on compassion, because one of the words we hear a lot is empathy, and empathy is important, and I mean, it's I feel for you, I feel what you're going through. Well, for leaders, that's not enough. They have to put empathy into action, and that's acting with compassion, and that's reaching out to make that positive change in another's life, however you can understanding what your role is, what you can do and and when people see that kind of action, that kind of compassionate, they may be motivated to do the same, but at least you're doing it yourself. I think you know, when it comes to grace, certainly for myself, it's a work in progress, you know? Yeah? So it's always what we're it's some sense of striving,
yeah? Well, John, while you were speaking, I was just so compelled to kind of try and find the best definition I could. I can't say this is the best, but I would say this one is pretty good for our listeners. Divine Grace is the theological term present in many religions. It's been defined as the divine influence, which operates in humans to regenerate and sanctify, to inspire virtuous impulses, to impart strength, to endure trial and resist temptation, and as an individual virtue or excellence of divine origin. I think that's not a bad definition of you know what you could be to be in grace, to actually be inside of grace. Would you say that that maybe hit part of it on the head, at least?
Oh, I think it's it hits the nail on the head. But I would take a step back, and I know people of grace who come from, you know, a faith based background. My mother was very much that way, as my father was too in his own way. He was a family physician. My mother was active in a community and did lots of positive things to make lives better for others, groups of others, including her children, probably failed with me, but it worked out. I would, I would not want to limit it to divine. Those who say that it's a divine I had no argument with that but, but it means that you have to have a higher faith. And I would say that's limiting. I think that we're recognize the own, your own strengths, what you can do if you you know, if it's a higher power for you all, that's wonderful. But don't think that you have to go that way. Trust your own self, what you can do and look to the examples of others who make that positive difference and make a choice for yourself.
I think there's somewhat it can be somewhat of a conundrum between someone being religious or someone being spiritual, or somebody looking at the word grace, and I appreciate you redefining it. But I also think for many of my listeners, they understand the importance of a higher power, whatever it might be. Maybe it's not God, it's maybe it's something else. Maybe it's all it's maybe something that they call something, but they've identified it, or to get in touch with that power. And I think much of this grace comes from when you can be in a state of consciousness that allows you to actually access it, right? So, you know, we look at, we can look at the scientific terms of unconscious, subconscious, conscious and super conscious, right? So the reality is, in what state of consciousness is that coming from? What's certainly not coming from unconscious. It's not coming from probably conscious, but it it can be coming from, you know, people deal with their subconscious all the time when they go to a hypnotherapist to try and figure out what's holding them back, what are the things to get there? So it's those breakthroughs that they can have there. Now look, this book is awesome. Hold it up again so the listeners can see a copy of it. This is the third book, grace under pressure. What do you hope readers are going to take away from the book, John? And how do you envision leaders who were addressing today to sustain their commitments to leading with grace? In other words, you got a lot of advice in this book. I don't know exactly how many pages it is, but you have a lot of advice. You've been there. You've written two other books on it. You would be considered somebody with a wealth of knowledge. What are you going to hope the readers will take away from not only our conversation today, but from your book?
The bottom line, it's a question, it's a sense of connection, reaching one and each other in a truly human way, being there for someone else, and that is the basic that's the element of grace. In other words, and when you're there for others, when crisis strikes, you have that innate sense of, oh, what do I need to do? You don't need to be asked. You act for the good of the whole and your engine, your fuel, becomes this sense of grace. Furthermore, it's not a solo enterprise, per se. When we have connection, genuine connection, what we have is community. And I call me crazy, but I like to think of that organizations can become communities where people feel that they belong, you know, and they want to be there because they it's a good environment. Their friends work there, but their colleagues, they trust them. They're doing good work, and they're, you know, adequately competent. I mean, it's that they're fairly compensated, and they feel the sense of belonging because they're contributing. That comes down to the connection and the sense of community and knowing that you're not in this alone. You know, we all want to work for something greater than ourselves, and that's what community is. And when we have these goals and we're all pulling together, it's a sense of to get your word, a sense of connection, but also a sense of peace, a sense of harmony, you know, and that, hey, we're in this together, and we know the world's not perfect, but we can create a world that works for us, and we'll be active in that world, so we can do our own part. So I think that thinking of grace as elemental in the sense of the courage and the compassion and the connection and community, and also I want to leave on a point of show yourself some grace, because none of us is perfect. We're all working to do the best we can, and you're going to make mistakes. And that doesn't mean you have to quit. It means that, you know, you just try again. And that's where grace, I think, comes in, gives you that boost, if you will. I think that energy, as you described it, Greg, to keep trying.
You hit the nail on the head. And I want to thank you for being on inside personal growth, because you've shared words of wisdom from the book for everybody. We're going to put a link to Amazon to his book. We'll put a link also to the website. The website is John Baldoni, and that's J O, H n, b, a, l, D, o n. I.com there. You can learn more about his speaker, speaking, his workshops, his presentations, his coaching, all that's available at the website. Check him out on YouTube as well. There's a speaker's reel out there that he did not that long ago. So I appreciate you, John. I send you love, compassion and grace. Thanks for a wonderful interview on inside personal growth today. And is there any parting words you have for our listeners. Well,
I want to say thank you to you, Greg, because I know you've been doing this podcast for virtually longer than anyone I know of, and I'm going to say that you've created a community of dedicated listeners who enjoy the programs that you're doing. So you've created a community, and I know you've helped facilitate that community by your own sense of grace, so I'm honored to participate in this grand community with you. So thank you, Greg. So well.
Thank you, John. The energy in me reflects the energy in you. We're like mirrors. So thanks so much for being a great mirror, and thanks so much for bringing your new work and your new book out. Hold it back up one more time so listeners could see it. There it is. Grace under pressure, go out and get yourself a copy. Thanks so much.
John, Thank you.
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Inside Personal Growth with Greg Voisen · Podcast 1162: Everyday Commitments: Choosing a Life of Love, Realism, and AcceptanceIn a recent episode of the Inside Personal Growth podcast, I had the pleasure of sitting down once again with Dr. David Richo. David, a renowned psychotherapist and author of over 20 books, including Everyday Commitments, shared deep insights on how we can bring more integrity, love, and realism into our lives. His teachings, which blend Jungian, Buddhist, and mystical perspectives, offer a unique path to personal growth and acceptance.
The Origin of Everyday CommitmentsDavid explained how his work in an alcohol recovery program inspired him to expand the traditional 12-step inventory. The inventory helps individuals identify how they’ve hurt others and how to make amends. However, David saw a broader opportunity: he wanted to encourage people to look at how they may not have acted with integrity or love, and how they can correct this. This inspired the creation of 52 commitments, one for each week of the year, designed to foster self-respect, love, and acceptance in everyday life.
Saying Yes to RealityOne of the key ideas in Everyday Commitments is the importance of saying “yes” to reality. Life is full of givens—things we cannot change, such as suffering, uncertainty, and the fact that plans don’t always work out. David encourages us to stop fighting these realities and instead, accept them with an “unconditional yes.” This doesn’t mean giving up, but rather recognizing what we can and cannot control.
The Serenity Prayer, famously written by Reinhold Niebuhr, encapsulates this beautifully:
“God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, courage to change the things I can, and wisdom to know the difference.”
David explains that when we stop quarreling with reality and accept life’s givens, we can achieve greater peace and minimize stress. Acceptance becomes a way to maintain emotional balance amidst life’s ups and downs.
Cultivating Loving KindnessAnother key theme in the conversation was the cultivation of loving kindness, especially toward ourselves. David defined love as a “caring, committed connection,” and this extends to how we treat ourselves. Practicing self-love involves caring for our physical and emotional well-being, committing to a life of integrity, and maintaining a connection with our inner selves.
For those struggling with self-criticism or low self-esteem, David suggests small acts of self-care as expressions of love. Asserting oneself in a respectful manner, or simply acknowledging one’s feelings without judgment, are steps toward fostering this loving kindness.
Freedom from FearFear often stands in the way of personal growth. David pointed out that while we can never be entirely free of fear, we can free ourselves from its grip. This means recognizing fear, but not letting it drive our actions or stop us from doing what we want to do. David’s book When Love Meets Fear offers affirmations to help release unhealthy fears and embrace life’s challenges.
He also offers free resources on his website, including audio affirmations that can help anyone let go of fear:
Listen to affirmations for letting go of fear.
Gratitude and Stress ReductionPracticing gratitude plays a significant role in David’s philosophy. He emphasized that gratitude is not just a practice, but a way of shifting our mindset. By focusing on the gifts life gives us, whether they come through effort or grace, we can overcome feelings of entitlement and reduce stress.
Mindfulness, deep breathing, and accepting what is are all tools David recommends for reducing stress and staying committed to our life’s purpose. He encourages a daily mindfulness practice to keep stress in check and cultivate a sense of serenity.
Conclusion: Embodying Authenticity and IntimacyDavid concluded our conversation by discussing the importance of authenticity and egoless intimacy. To create meaningful relationships, we must let go of our ego’s need for control and validation. This requires humility, shadow work, and a willingness to show ourselves as we truly are—warts and all.
If you’re interested in diving deeper into David’s teachings, I highly recommend his book Everyday Commitments: Choosing a Life of Love, Realism, and Acceptance, available in Kindle format. You can learn more about David Richo and his work on his website: David Richo.
For those eager to get the book, you can purchase it here.
You may also refer to the transcripts below for the full transciption (not edited) of the interview.
Interview Transcipt -Not EditedEmailDownloadNew TabWelcome back to Inside personal growth. This is Greg voisen, the host of inside personal growth, joining you from Encinitas, California, and joining us from Santa. Barbara is a returning author guest, and it's Dave Rico. And for all of you who want to learn more about Dave and all of his 35 plus books, I think it is that, right, Dave,
David Richo
20,
Greg Voisen
all right. I don't know how I got the extra 15, but I gave you, I gave you credit for 35 is Dave Rico. He's a PhD and MFT and a psychotherapist. He's a teacher, a workshop leader and a writer, and he works out of Santa Barbara and San Francisco. He combines union poetic and mystic perspectives in his work with the intention of integrating the psychological and the spiritual. And I appreciate that about Dave, because so much can be learned from our own spiritual perspective. I was just speaking with a few days ago, Ken Wilber, of all people, on a new book called Radical wholeness. And as you know, Ken is quite the thinker and gets people to really look at their life in a different way. And I think you do too, from a both the Budd and Christian spiritual practices of of which you come. So thank you for being on we're going to you do have a copy of this book, everyday commitments, because that's what we're going to be talking about. There it is. That's the book everyone everyday commitments. And the subtitle is choosing a life of love, realism and acceptance. Okay, so, but
David Richo
it's not in book form. It's in it's only in Kindle. Kindle, yeah,
Greg Voisen
and I think my listeners will appreciate that they're going to save a tree today. So, but the reality is is it doesn't matter how you get it. I think today's podcast, we're going to take a really deep dive into not only the emotional side, but psychological side. So like you've written, as you said, 20 books over your career, and what really prompted you to write everyday commitments specifically, and how does the book fit into the your really your larger body of work? Because when I look at all the books you've written, we were just talking about long years before we came on the air. There is a weaving in between all of these. And I'd like for you to kind of give the listeners some perspective on that.
David Richo
Thank you, Greg, and thanks for inviting me. The origin of the book is very simple. I was working in a an alcohol recovery program, and we were on the topic of the inventory that people who were in the 12 step program Alcoholics Anonymous engage in, and the inventory is puts the accent on you know how you have hurt others and how you want to make up for it, and that certainly is an important part of recovery. It also occurred to me that maybe we could expand what we need to look at when we do our inventory and ask ourselves how we were not acting in integrity at various times in our lives, and how We were not showing the love that's in us. So that led me to put together a list of commitments that a person can make that bring more integrity and loving kindness into their lives, and
Greg Voisen
it's funny, you mentioned that the because just prior to this, I was on the line with Amy Sandler, and the book is radical candor. And you know, it's, it's hit in the corporate world, really big. And I think, you know, your books are are designed as well. If people read these, bring this into business. You don't have to separate. You can bring this into your personal life, and you need to. But you outlined 52 commitments that would foster self respect and loving kindness. So loving kindness is the key word here, because that's up to yourself and the people around you, especially if you were working in NAA. So how'd you arrive at these specific commitments, and what inspired you, basically to kind of expand upon this AA program and say, hey, look, there are other things we should be looking at other than what was being looked at inside of AA, because 52 is a lot more, but you got one for every week. So I kind of figured it was like, Okay, this is a great thing. He's got one commitment for every week.
David Richo
Well, I've been a psychotherapist for over 50 years, and one thing I've noticed is that as people get healthier, they act automatically with more integrity and more love. So I asked myself, what are the qualities that I've been seeing in others and that I see and want to see in myself? I listed them, and that's how I came up with the 52
Greg Voisen
Okay, so these,
David Richo
and of course, their, their, their original purpose was to be of assistance to anyone in any 12 step program who wants to design a life that In which you come across with love, realism and acceptance, which is our subtitle, this book was revised, and the new version of it is called coming home to who you are. And that isn't is a physical book and Kindle book, okay, so people can this one, or the coming people get, or
Greg Voisen
you can get the Kindle of this one, or coming home to who you are, and you can get that as a physical book, if you like. It that way, because this was an an offshoot of that. Now look, one of the core ideas in the book is about saying yes to reality. And can you expand on how this acceptance of life's Givens right? What we're given, such as change, right? Which is what we're all dealing with right now, uncertainty, which we're all dealing with right now. It's prolific in previous times. It didn't seem to be this way. It seems as if we've been thrust into a different error. And I know you come from an age category that I do, and I think when you get older, your perspective about this gets sometimes a little bit more sometimes narrow. I'm hoping mine isn't so narrow. But can, how could we bring more peace into our daily lives? I think that's the key. Versus more frustration, versus more uncertainty, versus feeling anxious, versus feeling all these things that you meet with people about to psychologically help them accept and or overcome through whatever techniques that you use in your psychotherapy,
David Richo
what helps me the most was the prayer that was written by Lutheran minister in 1943 Reinhold Niebuhr, God grant me the grace to accept The things I cannot change. Change the things I can and have the wisdom to know the difference. So in the first one is the serenity to accept what the givens are, the things in life that you can't change, and to distinguish those from what you can change, and to have the courage to do these changes, and then finally, to have the wisdom to know the difference, to know the difference, yeah, so that's where I came up with the idea of Givens. I said to myself, well, what does he actually mean by the things we cannot change? And I thought to myself, well, that that would be like, you know, in high school geometry, we had the givens. Shortest distance between two points is a straight line. You don't have to prove it. It's a given. And I thought, well, what are the things in human life that you don't have to prove their Gibbons. And I come up with five specific ones, which became my book, the five things we kind of change. And the five are to to realize that everything changes and ends. What you just brought up to see that suffering is part of life. It's not a punishment because you were bad, and happiness is not a reward because you were good. It's just a given that all of us will experience suffering at one time or another, and that would be one of the things to accept.
Greg Voisen
Well, that's a Buddhist, if I accept it good. Budd precept is, you know, going to have pain. The question is, do we have to accept the suffering it goes along with it, right? It's like pain and suffering. And I and I reflect back on your books are phenomenal, especially the longings book, because I think you can create a lot of suffering around longings. And I remember not that long ago, watching a documentary that the famous psychologist Phil Stutz, was in around his tools, right? And one of the things it's it he says you're going to gain insights is into life's complexities and navigate the challenges of love, loss and success, right? And I thought it was very poignant how you know he's getting much older type writing these little handwritten notes and things that he did right? And you've done so much work in this area, how would you comment about some of the things that your 52 commitments could help somebody through these challenges that everybody faces around loss, success and love.
David Richo
Well, a loss would be the first, given that things change. So we're going to sometimes lose what we had things, and we're going to lose what we had and in even a more severe way. And my proposal is that we come from an unconditional yes to the way things are, rather than quarreling with reality. So these five things that there are hundreds of Givens, but the five that I noted includes the one you mentioned, also that there will be suffering, also that life is not fair, that people are not always loyal and loving, that the plans that we make don't always come through for us. So instead of blaming ourselves for how inadequate we are, we would, we would realize that, well, there are some things that just happen, and it's up to me to distinguish, do I accept this with my unconditional Yes, which is the equivalent of a prayerful response, or do I fight it tooth and nail and then be or blame other people or blame the world for what's happening, or blame God for what's happening. That's not going to get us anywhere. So if you want the serenity, you go with the unconditional Yes, it's not giving in, it's acknowledging
Greg Voisen
and it's not giving up. I want to distinguish that it isn't giving up and it isn't giving out. And I think one of the things that helps us get there, and you did a lot of writing in the book about this, and we talked about it earlier, is emphasized the cultivation of loving kindness as an essential practice. My listeners out there, anybody who's listening right now, how can someone struggling with self criticism, you know, low self esteem, the egos telling them they're not enough, they've not done much work on the subconscious to really realize what's going on and what's been supplanted in there. But how can they begin to foster loving kindness toward themselves, because I think this is a huge step to say I love myself.
David Richo
Well, first, let's ask what love is, and I came up with something. I don't know if you would agree, but it's kind of a working definition for me. Um, this 3c Love is a caring, committed connection. So when I care about myself by taking care of my body with diet and exercise. I am loving myself when I am committed to living a life of integrity and love of others. I am loving myself when I maintain connection with my own inner life and my daily feelings, and let them be okay and and work with them and acknowledge them. I am loving myself. It doesn't have to be it doesn't have to feel Fuzzy Wuzzy. It can be very matter of fact, I took care of myself today by speaking up and being assertive when somebody was trying to take advantage of me. That was a way of taking care of myself. Taking care of is the same as loving myself. So I look at it that way, and I'm wondering if that makes sense to you, do you like that concept connection
Greg Voisen
most certainly, because you know those three descriptor words are ways that I can relate to what loving means, right? I think one of the other ones would be compassionate, compassionate with myself, right? And I like this in these commitments, these 52 commitments, you say grounded, not swayed, and you encourage the readers to remain centered, right? So this is like a deep center where you can stand despite all the challenges. It's like in the middle of a tornado. At the center of the tornado is really not where all the the destruction is happening. It's in the outskirts of that tornado. And I sometimes feel that our listeners, including myself, feel like sometimes we're in the outskirts of that tornado being twisted and turned around and everything else. Now, what practical strategies can you help people maintain, and I want to underline maintain to get to this grounded point, especially in moments of emotional overwhelm. So think of it as here I am in the center of the circle. I'm grounded. Here I am in the whirlwind of the tornado not so grounded, emotionally feeling upset, emotionally feeling distraught, anxious, whatever it might be, all the emotions that we could describe. How do you help them stay grounded?
David Richo
Well, let's take a simple example, and this will be one of the commitments. One of the commitments has to do with no longer retaliating when people offend us. Instead, we keep ourselves grounded by not being triggered into being as mean toward them as they are toward us, and instead, we say ouch. That's our assertive reporting of how we feel hurt by what someone has said or done. So you have to be at least assertive enough to be able to do that part. Let yourself feel the grief that is happening within you. So you're acknowledging your actual feeling of hurt and grief, and you're speaking up and saying Ouch, and then you're attempting to open up some kind of dialog with the one who offended you, so that you could reconcile, and rather than continue back and forth, retaliating. So that would be an example of how you would now be grounded in that moment of her, and you certainly aren't going to permit the herd to go on. That also keeps you grounded. That's an example of how the commitment to non retaliation is the same as no longer being so triggered that you're thrown off, but rather remaining grounded. I
Greg Voisen
think what's important for our Listen, what are important for our listeners to remember is the more you engage with the emotion associated that triggered you to be upset by this, the more it hurts you. Now, that's a hard one sometimes to take because, you know, people, yesterday I saw myself get upset at a doctor's office at the true incompetence. I'm really just bringing this down to a real basic level here. And the woman on the other end of the phone just kept saying, we don't have you in your records. We don't you know, she wouldn't hear anything else that everything else had been taken care of. It was there, and I did. I exploded. I was like, Oh my gosh, you know, how can this doctor's office be so incompetent or put they don't train their people. They're, they're not nice, they're, you know, all these kind of things, all these things went through my head. And then afterwards, I thought, man, was I sucked down the rabbit hole because I allowed myself to go there. And I think we're all human. We all have those emotions, we all have those experiences, but that's one, but one of the biggest ones we all face as a result of this is, and I think it's a driver where people say there's only two really big ones, fear and love. Well, the reality is, I wasn't acting very loving, but I was acting fearful because I wasn't getting my appointment. I was afraid, right? So I came from fear. So you you say fear is often a barrier to our personal growth. How can the commitment to a freedom from the grip of fear. Help somebody really transform their relationship with fear?
David Richo
Well, first of all, the reason I have the title freedom from the grip of fear is because I don't believe we'll ever be fully free of fear, nor do we want to be we want to be afraid when we hear the rattle of a rattlesnake so we won't disturb him and get bitten. So we do need our fear for those kind of situations, but when you're no longer driven by fear to act in us in a certain way, or stopped by fear from acting in certain way. That's the equivalence of being freed from the grip of fear. So you don't want fear to take over and make you do what you don't want to do or not do what you do want to do when it can no longer stop and drive you or drive you, but you let yourself still feel the fear. So it's feel the fear and do it anyway. I'm feeling afraid, but I'm not going to act on the fear by stopping myself or pushing myself into something that I don't really want to do now what, what helped me the most was I put together a list of affirmations that help you free yourself from fear. These are in my book, when love needs fear. But if you go to my website, Dave rico.com, D, A, B, E, R, I, C, H, O, I have on that first page, there's a button for free articles. I'm there. The first one should be
Greg Voisen
affirmations for letting go of fear. It's 12 minutes and 40 seconds. We also have one, the lecture, the Sermon on the Mount. That one goes on for three or four audios. But that is a good place for my listeners to go. Just go. Dave rico.com, forward slash free, hyphen book. That'll take you to the free articles. But in this case, it's audio streaming, so that's awesome. That's a great place. Listen to
David Richo
those. It takes about, I don't know it's maybe like 10 minutes, but if you listen to those every day, you're guaranteed to have less fear, because you know, you start being aware of where your fears lodge inside your body, and you also release the fears that are neurotic and hold you back and shouldn't Be there. We want to have the healthy fears,
Greg Voisen
not the unhealthy ones, which I yeah, I'd like the one that I got yesterday. Like, now you just talked about an incident of being taken advantage of. And I want to go back to the book talks about respectful assertiveness. You said you had to be assertive with I don't know what the incident was. Doesn't matter, but the fact was, is that you had to be assertive. How can someone develop the balance between being assertive while still being compassionate and respectful toward the other person? Because they're not a conundrum in my world, but in many people's worlds, there would kind of be a conundrum between a I'm going to be assertive, I'm going to be compassionate. You're saying you can be I just interviewed an author, Dr David Yazmin. Her book is called graciously, assertive. Okay, so the question is, in business or in personal life. How do we do what you're calling respectfully assertive?
David Richo
I see assertiveness as the middle way. So on one end of the spectrum, we have passivity. Let people walk all over you. At the other end of the spectrum, we have aggression. Aggression walk all over people. And in the middle is assertiveness. So Goldilocks wise, too much assertiveness is aggressive, not enough. Assertiveness is passive, and just right is the healthy assertiveness, which is always respectful, but always does bring up what you're feeling right now. I'm feeling angry, you know, based on what you said. I really feel an ouch with this. And you know, I want to talk about that's what you sound like when you're assertive. Rather than just suck it up. Don't say anything. I don't want to. I don't want to arouse the other person's anger. I don't want to lose him as a friend, so I'll just let it go. That's not assertiveness, that's appeasing, which is on the passive side, we also don't want to blame the other person. What the heck is wrong with you? You're really a jerk. That's the aggression. But when you just speak up and declare what you're feeling in response to what the other person has said or done, that's the assertiveness, and by the way, the retaliation is on the aggression side,
Greg Voisen
very well put. And I think so we're the middle ground, just like the Buddhist middle way. And I like that look. We all know how good it is to give gratitude every day, to give gratitude for what we've got for for our life, and to help people through gratitude. Give gratitude that way, and it plays a significant role in these commitments. How does practicing gratitude, and you say, practicing, I think you can become consciously grateful in every moment, if you choose that, but to regularly shift our mindset, which is really the key, and how can it help us overcome these feelings you call of entitlement? Because the reality is, is that in from my world, I gratitude, even at this late stage in my life, at 70, and having done courses in spiritual psychology and everything, I still don't always see the gratitude. It ebbs and flows. You know, it's like, okay, I'm grateful today. Oh no, I wasn't so grateful yesterday. How would you help people even out that peaks and valleys of gratefulness?
David Richo
What helps me the most is being conscious of what's called what in religion is called grace. In religious terms, grace is a special gift from the Holy Spirit, yep. But you can also think of grace as the gift dimension of life that we've all experienced at one time or another. Now, the accent in the self help movement is, what are the practices and exercises that we can do put effort in to make changes in our lives? But that's, to me, is only half of the story. There's effort and there's grace, somehow you would start becoming aware that that there are certain levels of growth happening in you that you didn't make happen. It just seems to be happening by themselves. I think the best description I've ever seen of the difference between effort and grace and we need both is from st Teresa of Avila. She's a Spanish mystic and she said, when I water my garden, that's effort. When it rains, that's grace. I didn't make it great rain. It just happened, and I'm thankful that it happened. That's the gratitude. So we're we're thankful for the graces. And one of the commitments in in the book everyday commitments, is to to be able to say, I'm thankful for the gifts that have come through me, rather than from the
Greg Voisen
that's a good one. I just completed an interview with John Baldoni. The book is called grace under pressure and and I relate to the fact that when we're under pressure, that's the time we're most challenged to actually consider grace. You know, in other words, it's like, okay, this is a very stressful situation, which kind of leads me to this question for you. One of the commitments is about freedom from stress. Okay, great, great point. I don't know if we're ever going to be free from stress, but maybe, maybe, what are some tangible steps individuals could take to reduce stress while still staying committed to their life's aspiration, their life purpose, their life mission, because this the stress seems to be, if you allow it, almost like a non stop, because we move at such a, you know, I call it thriving in a world of ever increasing complexity. I wrote a book once called wisdom, wellness and redefining work thriving in a world of ever increasing complexity. I wrote another one called Never mind the noise, and it was always the subtitle was always thriving in a world of ever increasing complexity. Now, my perception at the time when I wrote those is that we lived in a world of ever increasing complexity. I'm not certain that my personal perspective has changed, and what I'm asking you is freedom from stress, because that complexity, when we can't manage it, seems to create stress. Dave and so how do you help me? Just heed me great voice and get out of feeling overwhelmed by all the complexity that creates stress.
David Richo
My first response is mindfulness, in which you sit daily for, you know, maybe 1520 minutes, if, if you can, and you just let yourself be in the present moment. And when those stresses come through your mind and body, you are simply letting them go and coming back to your breathing, which is even in regular and even when you kind of take three deep breaths, you notice that you have less stress. So first, it would be first. My first response is, mindful meditation, deep breathing, just letting yourself be in the present moment without getting caught in all the thoughts that gather around the stress like I was wrong. They were wrong. I'm scared. I'm worried about what's going to happen. Those feelings and thoughts will come through your mind, but you're just going to let them go one by one. So that's my first response. My second is, of course, the the prayer that I mentioned before, somewhere in me is the serenity to accept the things that I will have no control over today, which is most things, either from the news or from my own life. Yeah, and I want to have an unconditional Yes. So that's the way it is, and that gives me serenity, instead of stress
Greg Voisen
that, and that's not giving in, as you said. And
David Richo
then I will have some areas where I can make a change. Somewhere in me is the courage to do that. I act as if I had courage. That is the equivalent of courage and the wisdom. I look ask the Holy Spirit or Buddha or the universe, may I have the wisdom to know the difference? So you're putting those two together. Does a lot to help you in stress.
Greg Voisen
I think accepting what is it sounds like such a simple term. It is a simple term. The key is to embed it with inside of you, with inside of your, your your body, to understand that there's this mind body spirit connection, and that in that mind body spirit connection, I'm accepting what is and I'm not resisting, I'm not pushing away from it. And I think many of the things that happened to us, our first reaction is to push from them, push, try and push it away. I didn't really want it. I don't know why it came today. And pardon me for saying people would say, God damn it. You know why did that happen? The other thing is, as you said, to graciously be able to accept it or grace under pressure. So let's talk about this concept that you talk about, which is egoless intimacy. I think many people deal with the issues in a relationship, and I want to know how they can let go of there's egos need or control or validation in the relationships to create deeper, more meaningful connections. And it was interesting the other day. I don't know if you're aware of this, but the the person who used to translate Freud's work, okay, obviously, was German. Writing in German, translated i and it as ego. Right now, I didn't, I didn't really realize this, but the reality is, everybody's been going along talking about the ego, right? And I was really fascinated by the fact that all these years it was a misinterpretation of a translation of what Freud had actually talked about. I honestly I didn't know that, but it was,
David Richo
it's I, and it's not ego, and it which exactly words for that,
Greg Voisen
yeah, yeah. But yet, we've all taken on this egoless ego. We relate to ego a lot as to how it affects us, right? And it's really the I that's affecting us, right? The big guy, yeah. So the question is around relationships and this egoless intimacy, and how that can help, how we can fix that?
David Richo
Well, the the first step, of course, is total dismantling of that big, inflated, entitled ego. There can never be intimacy between two people if one of them is an ego with all its entitlements and demands and need to be in control, so you would have to, and I point this out in my book, How to be an Adult in relationships. You me, anyone would have to do some work on becoming humble before you could ever be intimate with another person. You can't come from that arrogant position of you owe me. You're supposed to fulfill all my needs. It has to be we're going to grant hospitality to each other's needs. And my purpose is not to this is a quote from from the everyday commitments. My purpose is not to gratify my ego, but to free myself from ego so I can gratify the intimate relationship. And you know, it's a very big job, because the ego hides in in our behavior, thoughts and reactions, and we hardly even notice it, but it's not very appealing to other people when you're coming from that selfish position. So when you want real intimacy, both people would need to, you know, take a look at how big an ego they come in with, and see if they can do some ego reduction so that there's room for love. I do want to also add that ego can also be used in another sense, the healthy part of you that you want to build a healthy ego. Ego in psychology does not refer to what I just described. I'm describing the big ego. But the the word ego in psychology means the healthy part of us that knows its goals and fulfills them. That's the ego we want to build. And if your goal in relationship is true, intimacy, healthy exchange, then you're going to let go of the other kind of ego, which is the big, inflated one.
Greg Voisen
Yeah, well, these, these 52 commitments that are in everyday commitments, as we said, was the expansion from this work that you were doing when you were working in naa group. And I think that they're, they're quite valued, valuable, and people could just take one every week. You could hold the book up again, because I have my final question coming up for you. That's the book. Everybody go out and get it. We'll put a link to it, everyday commitments. Now, you know one of the things that is talked about a lot, Brene Brown, you name it, vulnerability and authenticity, right? You You hear it a lot today, and especially around leadership. You know, is the leader vulnerable? And is that leader being authentic? And are they self? Are they honest? What are some of the key insights that we are being in the opposite of authentic or being inauthentic. And how can we bring to work, or how can we work to bring our authentic selves to really all the interactions. Now, if you were to kind of put it in and give, give the listeners, like three tips from the book. This would be a great place to do it, because this is, to me, I think, one of the most important commitments that you talk about.
David Richo
Well, the first would be that you're no longer trying to look good. You're no longer trying to portray yourself with a persona that will impress everybody you have instead made it much more valuable to show yourself as you really are, warts and all, and you love being found out as who you really are, rather than continually making yourself look better than you really are. So that's the first part. Second part is to accept your own shadow, which would be the, shall we say, part of ourselves that we keep hidden, that we don't realize is even in there. I didn't realize how selfish I am, I didn't realize how prejudice I am. I didn't realize how I think of myself first and don't think of others I don't like those qualities and other people, but I know I don't have them in me. So when you get it that if you don't like it in somebody else, it probably is in you, and that's called the shadow work. For that, I recommend my book called Shadow Dance. And then third is the letting go of fear of just letting life unfold exactly as it intends to, rather than trying to be in full control. So I would see those three as helpful.
Greg Voisen
Those are three great points that you make, and accepting what is, and moving out of fear. Those are two big ones, or at least recognizing when you are in fear, taking a deep breath, understanding it, use your breath work, use your mindfulness, and then don't let your emotion take over and react to find yourself in a position where you've said something to somebody that you regret you said. These all may sound really simple, but they're always worth repeating. I'm going to tell all my listeners, go get the book everyday commitments. Because the reality is, the expansion work that you did, anything that has to do with AA work is good work. And the fact that you took this and moved it into a much bigger list, you said in the beginning of this podcast, this is the list. Go to Dave's website. It's Dave rico.com there you can learn more. You also have the affirmations which we said, which was free hyphen book. So Dave Rico, word slash free hyphen book. We'll put a link to that as well. Dave always an honor, a pleasure to have you on, we always get into nice dialog. I appreciate you and all these 20 books you've written, I will tell my listeners too. I'm going to put a link back to longings. If you have any interest in that podcast. We'll put a link in there to the longings podcast because it was excellent and it is really a good book for people to ponder. So thank you. Thank you. Namaste to you. Have a wonderful rest of your day and your morning, and thanks for being on.
David Richo
Thanks a lot. Appreciate it. All
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Inside Personal Growth with Greg Voisen · Podcast 1161: Radical Candor: Be a Kick-Ass Boss Without Losing Your Humanity In this episode of Inside Personal Growth, we are joined by Amy Sandler, a leading expert on mindfulness, radical candor, and executive coaching. Amy, who is also the host of the Radical Candor podcast, shares her journey from corporate leadership roles to teaching mindfulness and emotional intelligence. Today, we dive deep into her experience with radical candor and how it’s transforming leadership in today’s fast-paced, hybrid work environment.
In the evolving landscape of corporate culture, leaders are constantly searching for strategies to build trust, foster transparency, and improve team dynamics. Enter radical candor, a philosophy that balances the act of caring personally while challenging directly. Amy Sandler, a renowned executive coach and lead trainer for Radical Candor, sheds light on this concept, which is not just a communication technique but a mindset that can transform both individuals and organizations.
You can learn more about radical candor by visiting their official website or by checking out the book Radical Candor: Be a Kick-Ass Boss Without Losing Your Humanity here.
The Radical Candor Framework: Care Personally, Challenge DirectlyAt its core, radical candor encourages leaders to be both compassionate and candid. Amy Sandler explains that the balance between care and challenge is crucial. Leaders who focus solely on compassion without challenging their teams run the risk of “ruinous empathy,” while those who challenge without care exhibit “obnoxious aggression.” True radical candor, as Amy outlines, lies in the sweet spot—where feedback is both kind and clear.
Explore more on how to apply radical candor in the workplace by visiting the Radical Candor Instagram page, Facebook page, or follow them on LinkedIn.
The Role of Mindfulness in Radical CandorAmy’s unique journey, from Harvard Business School to teaching mindfulness at Google’s Search Inside Yourself program, has significantly shaped her approach to leadership. She emphasizes the importance of emotional intelligence, self-awareness, and mindfulness in practicing radical candor. “Mindfulness helps leaders stay present, listen actively, and communicate in ways that foster psychological safety within teams,” says Amy.
To hear more insights from Amy, follow Radical Candor on TikTok where they share practical tips on leadership and feedback.
Radical Candor in the Hybrid WorkplaceThe shift to remote and hybrid work models presents new challenges for leaders. Body language and non-verbal cues, often crucial in in-person communication, are harder to interpret virtually. Amy suggests that radical candor is even more important in these environments. Leaders need to be more intentional in building relationships and soliciting feedback.
“Whether through video calls or one-on-one meetings, the key is to create spaces where open communication is encouraged,” Amy advises. This means asking for feedback regularly and ensuring team members feel heard and valued.
How to Implement Radical CandorAmy shares practical tips for leaders looking to integrate radical candor into their daily practice:
- Start by asking for feedback: Build trust by asking your team how you can improve as a leader.
- Deliver feedback in real-time: Avoid waiting for formal reviews. Address issues as they arise with clear, constructive feedback.
- Model vulnerability: Share stories of when you received feedback and how it impacted you. This fosters an environment where feedback is normalized and not feared.
Why Radical Candor Matters in Today’s WorkplacesIn a world where transparency and trust are becoming increasingly important, radical candor offers a blueprint for leaders who want to drive performance while maintaining healthy, human-centered relationships. As Amy concludes, “Radical candor is about caring deeply enough to challenge directly, all while building a culture where every team member feels respected and valued.”
You may also refer to the transcripts below for the full transciption (not edited) of the interview.
Interview Transcipt -Not EditedEmailDownloadNew TabGreg Voisen
Welcome back to Inside personal growth. Another episode Amy, you do a podcast so you realize that every time we come on here, we are just blessed beyond belief. To have guests like you. And joining me from Los Angeles is Amy Sandler. She is a trainer, a lead coach, a podcast host for radical candor, and a mindfulness and breathwork worker as well. And this is the book we're going to be speaking about today. Good morning to you.
Amy Sandler
Good morning. I am excited to be with you and talk about radical candor. And wherever else we go.
Greg Voisen
am as well and I'm gonna let the people know also that Amy used to train she has done a lot of training. She has a lot of background in meditation, mindfulness, breath work, and she worked in Did you work inside Google teaching the Search Inside Yourself? Or were those yeah all over the place?
Amy Sandler
I was one of the first 30 People certified accepted to teach the Search Inside Yourself program, which was developed at Google outside of Google. So they had been training it internally and then in 2014, so it's it's been over 10 years. Where they open it up to start sharing Mindfulness Based emotional intelligence outside outside of Google. Well,
Greg Voisen
that is a wonderful course. And for all my listeners, just type in Search Inside Yourself. A little bit more. She's a professional speaker, corporate mindfulness trainer, executive coach, as we said, currently serving as lead coach and podcast host of radical candor. Go check that out. We will put links in the blog to that as well. She, as I said previously served in roles including Chief Marketing Officer and Chief Content Officer. And I love your statement here. She believes that genuine curiosity and boy do I have a big dose of that and active listening are the gateways to transformation and to be a podcast host and guest I think you have to be curious. You know, you're constantly finding new authors and having them on your show and I mean, Curiosity is like big for me. So we're gonna dive right into this because I want you to do more of the talking than me. But first off, start by telling our listeners a little bit about your background. I did tell them a little bit but such little bit because I know you've done deep work in the meditation and mindfulness arena. And I think that's what makes you so well. suited to actually do the radical candor work. And you know, everybody says, Well, how do all these things kind of fit together? It's like me, I have a degree in spiritual psychology and they go, Well, how do you coach business people with that? And I'm like, because everybody's got spirit and hopefully they bring it to work. Right? And we all have to find that. So how did your journey lead you to become one of the top trainers for radical candor? Well,
Amy Sandler
it always looks easier to explain it from the rearview mirror, I guess or looking looking back. And I really do think that curiosity propelled so much of it I've always been curious and a seeker and my background was really in the workplace was in marketing and communications i i went to Harvard undergrad, and then I went to get my MBA in Harvard. And I think a spoiler alert part of my seeking was like, oh, you know, going to Harvard does not make you feel great about yourself. You need to figure out other ways to kind of fill yourself up from from the inside. after business school, my classmates were going into something called the internet. I don't know if you heard about that. You know, jobs like Yahoo, like fifth employee, but I said, you know, I'm gonna go get another date sheet that dates you. Yeah, it does date me a little bit. And I got my MFA in Screenwriting. So I've kind of been on this income minimizing path. For a while then I became a meditation teacher. I never thought, first of all, that I was going to be a meditation teacher or be that that was actually something that the workplace would really welcome you know, for for decades. There. Were really two streams of my life. There was kind of the work in the job. And then there was the personal growth and the curiosity and the seeking. And so you mentioned that Search Inside Yourself program. That was really where I realized that this was something that companies were starting to see the value in. And there was a way where I could bring kind of all of these parts of myself into work. And as you said, it wasn't just something I was able to do. It was in fact, you know, like a competitive advantage that I had been, you know, spending decades doing this kind of deep dive into, into personal development, leadership, development, spirituality, etc. So for the past 10 years, I started teaching mindfulness and emotional intelligence to CEOs I've worked in that you're familiar with both YPO Young Presidents Organization and Vistage. And so really trying to at the time, there was a lot of need to explain the value of mindfulness. You know, this was 10 years ago, eight years ago, there wasn't as much of an awareness. Now I think one of the really exciting things is that people really do see the value of mindfulness they do see the value of stillness of listening, and how these things can actually deepen emotional intelligence which to go back to your sort of primary point, I would not be teaching radical candor had I not done all of this work. When we think about feedback, I'm very sensitive. In fact, I think it was like my first grade teacher, I had a little note that said, you know, Amy is very sensitive to criticism, she cries, you know, if somebody you know, criticizes her, etc, so I'm very sensitive. Yeah, well, my recovering perfectionist, right. So you know, I teach this stuff because I believe in it and because it holds me accountable to practicing to practicing it. Same reason why I feel that way about mindfulness, about attention training, about listening, and certainly about radical candor, which for me, is really bringing mindfulness and compassion practices in action, in relationship in conversation with the people that we work with, you
Greg Voisen
know, is interesting. I was recently listening to Tim Ferriss with Martha Beck, and I didn't know a lot about Martha Beck story, but she really told her whole story. And I was like, Whoa, talk about radical candor. And that's kind of what she's teaching now. Right to the world is really kind of radical candor. I don't know for anybody out there, I'm not advocating you go listen. To Tim Ferriss podcast, but I will say that interview with Martha Beck was really something. Now you host this podcast show radical candor. How did you get involved in that role? Because, you know, I think okay, a mindfulness meditation teacher might not be wanting to do a podcast show, but you say it's very rewarding and you love doing it. Explain how you got there, because Kim Scott must have said, hey, you know, Amy, you want to do this and you're like, Yeah, I got my hand up for this one. Yeah,
Amy Sandler
yeah. Great. Well, first also say a big fan of Martha Beck. I haven't listened to that conversation, but I will check it out. Radical candor is it means a few different things. So Kim Scott, like you mentioned, she and I went to business school together. We actually didn't know each other in business school. We reconnected years later. And so she gave this talk. before the book came out for the book, radical candor came out that Kim had had worked at Google. She had worked at Apple. And this is really a book dedicated to how can I succeed without being a jerk? This idea that we can care about the people we work with, at the same time, we're willing to challenge them directly. So it being Silicon Valley, she does this talk, it goes viral. And so all of a sudden, there's all this money to kind of create this company. So it's both a book and it's a training company. So what we do at radical candor, is we actually do workshops and and keynotes and that sort of thing. And Kim knew that I had been doing a lot of workshops, and so I started doing workshops. We were such a small company. So I was chief marketing officer and then I was Chief Content Officer looking at our our content in terms of the podcast itself. There had actually been a podcast when the company first started before I before I joined, and a few a few years ago, actually it was before the pandemic, Brandi Neal, who's our director of marketing and content now, she and I were talking about bringing back the podcast and so we started talking to two different firms that might be able to help us and then all of a sudden, the the we sort of got a little stuck COVID pandemic lockdown, and, you know, with all of the pain and all of the challenge of that time, you know, like anything with constraint and challenge sometimes you find opportunity. And so we were like, Let's just restart the podcast. And so it's really time right? Yeah. And so we're sitting in front of our computers and so and so really, you know what it what it is, is I will really host the podcast with with Kim the author of radical candor and co founder of the company and Jason rose off, who's our CEO and co founder. And by the way, I always wanted to be a talk show host just going back to curiosity and listening like to me it's the it seems like the obvious thing like you said, what, what could be better than talking to people and asking them questions and hearing their stories. It's really
Greg Voisen
interesting because I'm reflecting on the word radical. And just last week, Ken Wilber was on here for his new book, radical wholeness. It's a Shambala Press book. And you know, it's interesting when you look at this word radical because it stirs up emotion within people. Right, first off, because you're thinking about, well, you know, when I first grew up, we looked at radical a different way and so, you know, you say radical candor introduces the idea of caring personally while challenging directly. Okay. And I hope that that's the way everybody sees it. How can leaders strike the right balance between these two concepts? And what are some of the common common pitfalls that any leader should try and avoid if they can? Such
Amy Sandler
a great question, you know, with any camera people talk a lot about ways in which the book title plan the way it was intended? I'd say the biggest mistake that people make when they hear the phrase radical candor is that they think that means what we would call obnoxious aggression, or brutal honesty by that that means you can just say an air quotes in the spirit of radical candor, and then that gives you carte blanche to just act like you know, a garden variety jerk and just say whatever it is, and you know that shirts terrible I hate this podcast, you know, like that is not the spirit of radical candor. That is the spirit of what we would call obnoxious aggression or brutal honesty. In fact, there was a I think it was on HBO, a show called Silicon Valley, where they did a bit of a spoof and satire of radical candor and they were not doing radical candor, they were doing brutal honesty. What we say it's
Greg Voisen
interesting when you say that because the Martha Beck interview, it was really more brutal honesty in the sense that she says, most people are going through their lives. telling themselves a lie. Now that I don't disagree with we we frequently do live with those lies because we don't want to tell the other person we're afraid to tell they're the person we don't know how to tell the person. Would you say that that is also common inside the walls of these big companies? I would say it is right. And they just don't know how to express it. But your book helps people learn how to express it in a caring way.
Amy Sandler
Exactly. And one of the things that we like to do is we like to tell stories we like to tell stories, times when we received radical candor, and times when we made mistakes when we were not acting in a way that was both caring and challenging. One way that can help people think about what radical candor is, is compassionate candor. The compassion is the care personally part. And the candor is the challenge directly. Another way to think about challenge directly to by the way is to be a more is my feedback kind and clear. I think about radical candor about applying it in a conversation. Does the person I'm talking to feel like I care about them. And are they also really clear on what we've discussed, like that is my goal. So going back to this idea of, you know, that sort of kind is clear, clear is kind of you know, and Brene Brown talks about this a lot. You know, these are really fundamental ideas of truth and love, like when you really fully abstract them out. It's this idea of, of truth and love. But I think that the important point, Greg is that it's going to land differently for different people. There is not one absolute measure of what radical candor looks like. And so it's really about if you and I are in conversation together, how can I share my perspective in a way that is to be helpful for you that it's being kind in service of your growth? At the same time, it's clear what I'm asking for you. And so one of the reasons why we share stories about what it looks like is it gives me a chance to say hey, this is what care personally looks like for me. This is how this person kind of invested in the relationship like deposits in the relationship bank, so it'd be helpful for me to share a story about when I when I receive radical candor, like what that what that looks like for me or do you want me to pause? Pause here.
Greg Voisen
Where did you like I think it's, I think it would be good for you to share it and I'm gonna preface that with if I remember speaking with Corey Cogan from Franklin Covey, and you know, even though the quadrants which I don't think all the people listening understand the four quadrant Yes, I think to put a context to this. We're looking for the far right hand corner almost like Stephen Covey right, getting things done, you know, within but actually he borrowed that from Eisenhower and they even said that Covey made it so everyone could use it. Eisenhower didn't. But the reality was, is you guys have created a little graph. And I think if you talk about that graph for a second, then tell your story showing people will have a better context, but it's where we're headed. Yeah. 100%
Amy Sandler
Yeah, well, we joke that you know, if you worked in consulting or went to business school, you realize that all of the world's problems can be solved by putting them into like a two by two matrix like what you're talking about. So there's sort of this vertical, you know, y axis there's an X axis. If you imagine like the vertical axis is care personally Right? So there's that, that compassion, part of radical candor, and then the horizontal axis is challenged directly. So what you were saying that kind of top right, is radical candor and being caring and challenging. One of the things that I think is really helpful about the model and about using these kinds of frameworks, is to think about the mistakes that happen when we're not practicing radical candor. Right. So one mistake that we might make that we just did was we're high on challenge. The person knows they're messing up. We're being really clear, but we are not caring about them as a human being. Maybe we're sharing this criticism publicly, right, kind of front stabbing, we would call this obnoxious aggression. Now, I just want to say with this matrix, this framework, the what we call, you know, sort of the two by two framework or the quadrants. This is not a personality test, like we don't want people to start, you know, putting people into boxes like oh my box is a is a real this in my part, this. These are mistakes that we all make in conversation. And so I think the value of this framework is I kind of talked through it is to think about, oh gosh, in any conversation. I feel like I'm really high on the challenge here. Do I need to move up on care personally, so it really can be something to help you guide your conversation. So kind of that bottom right? High challenge, low care, we would call that obnoxious aggression. And again, these are behaviors, not personalities. After you acted like a jerk, rather than moving up on care personally, sometimes the human tendency I know I have it is to move on over to the left, where you end up not caring, not challenging. We call that manipulative insincerity. Now, how does this show up at work? This is the meeting after the meeting. Oh, Greg, great idea. Definitely. Want to do it. And then after this conversation, we ended up talking about all the reasons why it's a terrible idea, right? You say one thing to the person's face. And another thing about them behind their back. This is sort of, by the way, makes for really good television drama, sort of all the office politics. And gossip, etc. But this is really the most toxic of workplaces and, and you know, it can be fun to tell stories when you've acted like a jerk you know, when I sent that really obnoxious email and I wrote to the project owner how they weren't listening to me and they're wasting you know, millions of dollars and I then I included the CEO and had had an you know, that was really obnoxiously aggressive to do that publicly. It's for me when I think about my values. It's it's really hard to look at these times when I'm acting in manipulative insincerity when I'm really thinking about myself much more than the other person and it can, you know, to give ourselves a little like compassion or grace to kind of think about why do we act this way? Maybe we're stressed, maybe we're burnt out. Maybe we feel like we've said this over and over and the person isn't listening. But I'm curious. I kind of want to pause on this one. You know what comes up for you, Greg, when you think about this, this this behavior, where we're not caring, we're not challenging again, in that framework. It's kind of the to buy to the bottom left. What's your own perspective of why we might land in that manipulative insincerity quadrant? Talking about people not to them?
Greg Voisen
I think thanks for the question. It's just like a podcast host to ask another podcast host a question. I hear. So here's what I would say. I'm going to come at this from a Buddhist perspective and I want you to underline the word perspective. I think much of what happens to is a result of the perspective in which we carry around with us. So what I would say is there's frequently pain pain can result from this kind of action. The question is, do I have to carry the suffering with it? And that's a choice that I make as a result. Now, if I'm old enough to accept and understand and I have the I take personal responsibility for whatever it is, I'm 100% responsible. You know, I'm approaching this from a Buddhist perspective right now, but the reality is, it's like hey, really, if you look at that, and applied it to that, right, far right quadrant that you were talking about manipulative? I might not look at it as manipulative, I may re change my perspective, right. So I know that might not be what you were looking for. But what I would say is, you know, that's the way I would try and frame it for people. Don't take anything personally, we'll go back to Don Miguel Ruiz, right. I mean, the Four Agreements, right. So I don't I don't know if that works for you, but the reality is, that is a very important element is like, Oh, I gotta try not to take it personally. Yeah,
Amy Sandler
and that's that's a really interesting phrase, which I'll come back to in just a moment. I so much of of radical candor, the reason there is no absolute measure of radical candor, you know, so often people just tell me what to say, and tell me what will work well, we can't give you a script because you know what I'm going to say to Greg in this moment. I don't know how it will land. And so one of the biggest pieces of radical candor is that it's measured not at the speaker's mouth, but if the listeners ear, so I might client kind and clear, I might think I'm being radically candid with you, but how is it landing for you? Maybe you thought I was acting like a jerk. Maybe the challenge wasn't clear. I don't know. And so that's why these are one on one conversations. We want them to happen real time. So that's kind of thing one thing to what you said about perspective is so important because we are sharing our perspective with each other one of the biggest pieces of guidance when we talk about giving feedback, and I'll also want to make sure I talk about asking for feedback because that's actually where we start in our practice of developing these relationships is when we are sharing, giving feedback. It's sharing our perspective. And so number one is to share this in a way we would say that that's humble, and not humble in the sense to share it humbly that Oh, I am subservient. To you, but rather that curiosity. I am I am looking at this from this perspective. How are you looking at it? That's what we mean by sharing it. Humbly. So we are very aligned on this idea of sharing perspective and I think the piece that I'll get into now and make sure that we talk about the taking things personally because it's another really interesting, interesting part of this. When we go back to that quadrant that you kind of want me to walk people through right so we have top right, high challenge. I like being being clear being being caring is radical candor, the bottom right obnoxious aggression, high challenge, low care, we just talked about the bottom left, low care, low challenge, manipulative insincerity. Now when you say about the world, elective not landing for you, right, so I want to get to that Kim, you know, intentionally chose phrases and did did a lot of work to sort of bring up things that would would be as clear as possible. Now. The reason why and those words if those words don't work for you, you change in fact, Kim was working with a group in Japan and culturally, the idea of radical candor that those words and challenging care didn't work. So what they landed on was polite persistence, right? So the polite was the sort of culturally you know, sort of care personally and the persistence was the challenge directly. So use these words, you know, we all bring a lot of sort of meaning to them, but the reason why on manipulative insincerity versus the top left, which is ruinous empathy, that's high care, low challenge now, we would all agree, empathy is foundational to your practice. of radical candor. But empathy without action can both lead the person themselves to burnout and stress and also have really damaging effects on the other person. And so we share stories. One of the things that we'll often do is share about you know, when we've been in these sort of mistake quadrants, and for me, my tendency towards ruinous empathy is why I teach radical candor because if I really do care about this person, and I almost lost Well, I did really lose a good friend who had worked for me because I was so afraid to tell them what they needed to hear and months passed and months pass and months. Passed. And finally, we got this new boss and this person's job, job was on the line. And I never told them because I was not wanting to hurt their feelings, not wanting to hurt their feelings, and then all of a sudden, realizing that their job had been on the line. I was able to save the job but not the friendship because this person was like you never told me for six months. And so it's really those painful stories where you realize, gosh, it was ruinous because I was so worried about hurting their feelings. And yeah,
Greg Voisen
no, you said you were going to tell a story
Amy Sandler
well, I've shared a couple stories out there. One more was that the story? Well, that the story one share was what radical candor looks like but we also share our stories of the mistakes that we make. And the reason why that is so important is because we want to really normalize for people. We make these mistakes all the time. And we want to show people and especially as leaders, when you start to look at the mistakes you make when you share your stories when you're vulnerable. have either a time when you received radical candor, you know, what was it that made that radical candor for you that can show the people you work? With what sort of caring and challenging looks like for you very helpful, also very helpful to share stories when you have made these mistakes, and just kind of double click on that story that I was sharing, when I you know, really lost an important relationship to me because I was so worried about this person's feelings. And then it was so much worse, right? But if I'm really honest with myself, Greg, what's really interesting about kind of that left side of the framework, ruinous empathy, manipulate, living, we could talk about the word manipulative, but there was a part of me if I'm honest, probably a big part of me. That didn't tell him because I was more worried about myself. I didn't want to deal with his emotional response nine times out of 10 he was jump up and go do everything one time out of 10. He got very angry and yelled a lot. And I wanted to avoid that conflict. I also people pleasing part of me, I wanted everyone to like me, I didn't want to be sort of the bad guy and be the one giving the feedback. So that's what we mean by that manipulative insincerity that I'm more focused on myself, rather than being helpful to that other person. And both of those were happening in that story. And that's why emotional intelligence, self awareness, emotional management, really being willing to look at yourself in the mirror to realize what's what's going on for me here. Why am I not sharing this with this person?
Greg Voisen
Well, so look, when you come into an organization, you have to introduce this concept. People do the course they read the book, they get a foundation for the work, they understand the foundation. And I always wonder because you know, you and I are working remotely right now, which most people do. It's very common. How can leaders practice radical candor, effectively in a virtual environment, where really the body language and the tone are kind of harder to convey. I mean, if I was sitting in a room with you, right now, even doing this interview, it would be completely different because we'd see each other's body language. Certain things. I've seen podcasts where they do them live raid, meaning live, I'm in the same room with you. Yeah. How can people practice this in remote work and do it effectively? It's
Amy Sandler
such a great question. I will say radical candor as a company and we've been growing for me five, you know, nine, etc. Posts. We've got coaches. We we've always been we've always been remote. The guidance that Kim initially wrote in the book was before COVID, before this sort of remote revolution. And so one of the pieces of the guidance was to have these conversations in person. So we adapted we actually adapted doing our workshops from you know, in person to remote and then we shifted our guidance to wanting to do this more like job one would be in a video call so we could have the body language and see what was happening. Now there's actually some interesting research coming up that in some ways, there's almost more noise than signal coming through in video and maybe it's actually better to have a phone call and be able to you know, walk, et cetera. And so I'd say the most important thing is that different mediums are going to work better for different people, whether it's in person versus phone, versus video, the most important thing our recommendation is time that we are able to have a back and forth conversation in other words, like, Please don't break up with people by text. You know, like, we want to be able to have these conversations in real time. I was gonna say text or email
Greg Voisen
should be at the bottom of the list. 100%
Amy Sandler
Yeah, and we don't this is a real this is a real time conversation, not an email. Not a text. No, I'm someone that likes to put my thoughts together in writing, and then deliver it in real time. And so that can be very helpful. I can certainly share with you the model that we like to prepare our feedback and how we like to do this. But just to share one bit more bit about the remote. I do think we need to be a bit more intentional about the relationship building part of it. So whether that's a few minutes, you know, at the top of a meeting, checking in on how someone is doing, whether, you know, we really want to have these conversations in a one on one setting. And the most in building these, what I would call radically candid relationships, Greg, is to actually start by asking for feedback. So we want to do this in a one on one setting. And let's say so, let's say Greg, you and I start working on a project together. We're going to be, you know, working on a new podcast together. I would want to set up whether it's a weekly meeting, bi weekly meeting, where we kind of have this standing meeting where we can check in and see what's working, what's going well, what we could improve on. And I would want to really make sure that in that meeting, I solicited feedback from you and say like, Hey, Greg, like what's your working style like, you know, how can we address issues as they come up? Maybe I would ask, what was a partnership or a boss you had that you really appreciated so I can know kind of what radical candor looks like for you. So I would want to start by asking for feedback from you. Whether it's about communication style, whether it's about how it can be a better partner with you, etc.
Greg Voisen
The other thing I would say and I know you know this, but you know, I, having come from a background in psychology, and I've taught this to so many people. reframe the question saying this is what I heard you say, and then say what you heard them say and let them respond because the reality is, clarity of communication is probably the most important thing where there's no misunderstanding. So the little statement, you know, if I'm right, this is what I heard you say, right, Amy, and you go, Yeah, that's exactly what I heard you say? It helps me so much, to stay on track, stay focused and make certain that everybody is clear with the communication. We do say that that's a good bit of advice.
Amy Sandler
I think the biggest mistake in communication is thinking that it happens. Right? So I love that. Yeah, absolutely. saying, you know, framing what I heard you know, we do a listening exercise in our in our workshops, kind of a mindful listening exercise where we actually don't repeat back. It's sort of at the far end of the listening exercise. And one of the benefits of those exercises is that you get to really notice your patterns in communication, the kind of listening that you're talking about more generous listening or active listening, where you repeat back. I love that because A, it forces you to really be present and hear what that person is saying. Right? So that's important for you. It helps the other person feel feel heard. I think we all you know, that have this fundamental need to be understood. It also allows you as the speaker to clarify your own thinking. It's like, oh, yeah, I did say that. Let me tweak that a little bit. What I was really trying to say here was this, you know, does that help clarify it for you? Right, because any of these conversations, radical candor, communication, it's a two way street. If I'm going to share a challenge with you, then I need to expect a challenge back so yes, I love that. You know, this is what I heard you say. And the other reason why I think that's so important. Going back to even phrases like how the the phrase manipulative insincerity lands for you is because these words we all bring to these words, our own lived experiences and certain words are going to have all of these different meanings for us.
Greg Voisen
Well, I remember in in the course that I took one of the terms that was used with loving kindness. Yeah. And it was used, you know, quite frequently actually. So what you were doing, either a trio or a dyad with somebody and working with them and counseling. Loving kindness was like the umbrella fell over this whole thing. And I think that's partially what you're speaking you don't use the word loving. I get that. I don't know if that would be 100% accepted. In corporate one on one. But I think more and more. Now. You basically there are ways that leaders have to build trust with teams. Okay. And most people today, whether they're building software, they're working in innovation or design. They've got to do it while implementing radical candor, especially if they haven't been practicing any kind of direct feedback before. Where would you or how would you help the people out there in teams today, to learn how to practice direct feedback before so that it can be more effective, especially as a team because I think teams frequently this is what I've noticed. It can be one main communication coming from the supervisor, whoever, and they've got a team on Zoom, or in person, and it's like, Hey, this is what we're doing, guys. But there's so little inclusion, there's so little feedback, right? And I want you to comment on that because obviously doing the work that you've done, you know how important it is to have inclusion? Absolutely.
Amy Sandler
I mean, you're talking about a lot of different ideas here. You know, trust inclusion. I think one of the biggest challenges is where we might have a lot of feedback debt, you know, we might have technical debt, financial debt, often organizations might have feedback, debt and an even bigger idea of, you know, how do you build trust? How do you build psychological safety? Kim Scott and Amy Edmondson who really coined the term psychological safety, she's a professor at Harvard. Business School, talks a lot about how practicing candor goes hand in hand with safety and I think if you want to start building a radically candid culture, i You've got to I think really start small kind of start where you are. So first of all, you know that we may not be able to change the culture of a whole organization or company ways like to start where I am. So whether I'm the CEO, whether I'm, you know, kind of middle manager, whether I'm in an individual contributor, just what's the first thing that I can start to do, how can we almost create like pockets of excellence, you know, around where we are. So for me, I would, you know, start with a few different people that I could start soliciting their feedback in a one on one conversation over the next few weeks. And if I'm a leader, I would share that feedback publicly whether they wanted it to be attributed or not, but just say, you know, I've heard that I'm talking a lot in meetings, and inclusion is a really important value. And so going forward in our meetings, I'm going to assign someone to kind of keep an eye on, you know, timing and space so that you know, people really have a voice. So that's kind of thing one is I would start by soliciting feedback. share publicly and start putting that into place. We talk about sort of our order of operations. So start by asking for feedback, and then have specific insincere public praise with the people I'm working with not just what they did, but the impact they had. So the model that we like to use for both praise and criticism, we adapted from the SBI model from the Center for Creative Leadership. We call it core context, observation result and expected next step. So a piece of public praise can be like, Hey, Greg, when you asked me that question about, you know, how people can start to implement it. So you know, in the podcast when you asked me that question, you know, the observation, what the context was the interest of the podcast, and the observation was the question that you just asked, so I'm looking for work product or behavior. What's the result? Like what is the most meaningful impact of that? There could be a variety of different ways I want to think about it, but for me, the most important result is that it gives me a chance to provide your listeners with meaningful tips they can put into practice right away, like that's the number one tip other different ones. So Right. So on the podcast, you know, when you asked me the question about what people can do, it gave me the chance to give them some more practical tips and then expected next step. So this could be just keep doing it like praise, it can be just keep it up, you know, sort of that that ongoing challenge. It also could be like, you know, share with other podcast hosts, you know, how do you prepare for podcasts so that you can most be effective, right? So we want to share the wealth and when we start focusing on praise, focus on the good stuff, and the why and the impact, not just great job. That's not helpful praise, what's helpful praise is what was it that made it good so that people can start to replicate it?
Greg Voisen
Well, your answer to the question was excellent. And I think if, if all of the podcast listeners get this far in the podcast, this podcast was worth what Amy just said, because my feeling is not only one I heard core, and then I heard also behind what you were saying, this needs to become part of your DNA. This needs to become who you are as a leader. Not like oh, well I'm being told I have to do this because this is what I've got to do. No, this is what you should want to do. Because this is going to make things so much smoother and communication more open. You're going to get honest feedback. That feedback loop is so important. And I want to ask this question. You know, many workplaces they struggle with kind of this passive aggressive behavior or toxic communication, right? How can leaders use radical candor to transform a culture where open communication has really been lacking? And I know, I tell people when I go into a business as an advisor, you know, I could tell them that I could cut the air with a knife, because it felt like that. In other words, it was so heavy, everything was heavy, everybody felt suppressed. I can remember a time when I was 17 and I went over the Berlin wall into a communist area. And it was almost like that same experience, because you felt like everybody was repast. Everybody was doing what they were supposed to be told. But nobody was happy doing what they were doing, right. So I know that's a weird analogy. But when I was young, and I went into into Russia, or I should say, I should say, East Berlin, not Russia. The reality was, I felt so just small. Little
Amy Sandler
Well, I find that a really powerful story, and it shows that, you know, a lot of what we're talking about is kind of invisible, right in the sense of, you know, these one on one conversations and these cultures when we're thinking about, you know, one of my favorite lines that Kim shared in radical candor was this idea that relationships don't scale, but culture does. And this idea that we build culture through these more radically candid relationships. So I would build on what I shared as my initial guidance, which is as leaders starting with ourselves, Am I you know, it's one of my favorite things about working at radical candor is that it's the first time I've actually worked in a place where we are putting these ideas into practice, and thank goodness because we're teaching it but so often will work in organizations and will have certain values and mission statements etc. And yet, there's not that alignment of what we are doing. So if you are a leader, you know, first of all, what are you hearing from your overall listening? Not one on one listening but one to many listening in terms of data like your engagement surveys, your turnover numbers are people, right, you know, sort of quiet, quitting and all of these things. And so, when you think about building this culture, again, starting small modeling it the other thing is when I was talking about sharing your stories, it can be very helpful for leaders to start to look at, here's what radical candor means to me. Here's why I'm implementing it. And when you get criticism to treat it like gold when leaders start sharing criticism that they have received, that is when we are modeling that it is okay to share and that safety. That's not to say that one interesting leaders.
Greg Voisen
I'm sorry, I say that is open communication. Yeah. And the
Amy Sandler
last thing I'll share what leaders can do is that the one time we don't want to encourage listening is when people come to you and you know, Adams complaining to me about Ben and Ben is complaining to me about Adam, that is when we want the two of them talking to each other. That's where we can start to cut down on the side conversations. If you get together, then we would want you to be with your managers have us all together. And Kim talks a lot about in the book, speak truth to power meetings where you can have kind of skip level meetings. In fact, we just recently did those where we were having meetings. Jason was leading meetings talking about Kim Kim was leading meetings talking about Jason. So if we had not felt safe to give the feedback to them individually because of their power in the organization. This is a place to do that. And so acknowledging that it is hard to speak truth to power and creating systems and processes in the organization where people can safely speak up and try to lay that power down.
Greg Voisen
Well, Amy, it's been an honor having you on the show and for all my listeners, the book is radical candor, go out and get a copy, we'll put a link. We'll also put a link to the website radical candor.com You can learn more about this book, you can learn more about their trainings. You can actually see me on the podcast, there's plenty of episodes up there for you to take a listen to. So that you can get a better idea. Now I'm wrapping this up. I always like to have a final question here. We see or what we perceive, and I think much of the world perceives is this ever evolving workplace it's a very it's happening very rapidly. It's things seem to be happening faster. And again, I'll say perception, but I would say too much respect everybody. That's their reality. How would in this hybrid work world in the work world where we're working today? Can radical candor stay relevant? In other words, what is it that you would tell people and what are three takeaways that they could use?
Amy Sandler
Yeah, I mean, in fact, we're, we're kind of busier than ever. I think to your point people are stressed people there's so much in for farmers so much that people have to respond to and have to adapt, and we and we have adapted the content as needed. But that's why we're not so prescriptive. So number one, these are about building more trusting one on one relationships. How do you do that? Start by asking for feedback. I really liked your tip about listening when you asked for the feedback, not just repeat back what you heard, but put it into practice, reward the candor fix what you can fix and if you can't fix it, explain why you have a different perspective on it. But make sure that you follow up so ask for feedback, reward the candor and and share your stories. I mean, the part that AI is not replacing is our human experience our lived experience our stories, and when we share what radical candor looks like for us times when we've received at times when we mess up. And when we hear what other people what that looks like. We're we're gonna build new definitions of what these words mean, based on each of our own experience. So sharing stories,
Greg Voisen
they will great wisdom and I think tonight, we're gonna get a dose of radical candor. For all of you are listening. There's going to be a presidential debate,
Amy Sandler
hopefully compassionate candor. That's that'll be my vote.
Greg Voisen
I'm not certain it's going to all be compassionate. But the reality is, it's going to be interesting and I think millions of my listeners will have either tuned in by now, because they're listening to this Patek podcast later than the actual event itself, but commentary was, we'll get to see your work and progress on the debate stage. So thank you, so much for being on inside personal growth again, and for sharing your wisdom and insights from the years of experience as somebody who taught mindfulness meditation, Search Inside Yourself and comes with just such a great background to be able to speak about this. Namaste to you thank you for your your wonderful interview here today. And I look forward to some in the future.
Amy Sandler
Thanks, Greg. It was wonderful to connect. Thank you for your presence and lovely questions. A lot of fun.
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Inside Personal Growth with Greg Voisen · Podcast 1160: The Consulting and Advisory Guide to SuccessIn an enlightening episode of Inside Personal Growth, host Greg Voisen sat down with Peter Hickey, the president and founder of Institute Advisors, to delve into the transformative world of business advising. With decades of experience and a pioneering role in business consulting, Hickey brings a wealth of knowledge to the table, particularly through his latest publication, The Consultants Consulting and Advisory Guide to Success.
Business advising isn’t just about technical expertise or business acumen; it’s about nurturing and supporting business owners throughout their journey. Hickey emphasizes the holistic approach necessary for effective advising, which includes motivating, encouraging, and walking alongside the business owner through ups and downs.
Certification: More Than Just a CredentialInstitute Advisors offers a certification course that stands apart from traditional academic paths like a Bachelor of Science in Business Management. This course is tailored for practical application, equipping advisors with real-world tools and methodologies rather than just theoretical knowledge. It aims to fast-track the proficiency that typically takes years of on-the-job experience to develop.
Key Skills for Effective Business AdvisorsHickey highlights three critical skills for advisors:
- Personal and Sales Skills: Understanding how to create a good impression and effectively sell services.
- Marketing Skills: Knowing how to market oneself, from building a website to positioning and pricing services.
- Technical Competency: Deep business knowledge and experience are essential to provide credible advice.
The Advisor’s ImpactA significant part of the discussion focused on the impact advisors can have on businesses. By using structured methodologies like the “roadmap” Hickey mentioned, advisors can help business owners set and achieve benchmarks that lead to tangible improvements in business performance.
Conclusion: A Pathway to SuccessFor anyone considering a career shift or aiming to enhance their impact within the business community, becoming a certified business advisor offers a promising avenue. As highlighted by Hickey, this role is not only about business growth but also about personal fulfillment and helping others achieve their dreams.
Learn more about Peter Hickey and his contributions to the field on his LinkedIn profile.
You may also refer to the transcripts below for the full transciption (not edited) of the interview.
Interview Transcipt -Not EditedEmailDownloadNew TabGreg Voisen
Welcome back to Inside personal growth. This is Greg Voisen, the host of inside personal growth. Sitting here in lovely Encinitas, California. And joining us on the other side of the world is Peter Hickey. And Peter and I have known each other for many years and Peter was the prior founder of Ma U S. Software mouse software. He sold that and now he is the president and founder of Institute advisors. And he is joining us from just right outside of Sydney, you kind of have to take a boat across to get to where he is. Good day to you. Good morning to you.
Peter Hickey
Yes, good morning to you, Greg as well. Great to be on the podcast and great to see you again.
Greg Voisen
Likewise, it was always good to see you. And I appreciate you taking this time to really inform our listeners about his new book. We're going to be talking about that. The same time we're going to be talking about the Institute of advisors, which is not a new foundation that he's set up, but it's a program that we're going to discuss and that's Institute advisors.com For any of you that are currently right now, just so anxious that you got to go look, it's Institute advisors.com. The book is called The consultants consulting and advisory Guide to Success. And Peter has been doing this for a very, very long time, from both sides of the aisle, both the software side and now having a certified program for people. So I'm gonna let him know a little about you. He's the president and founder Institute advisors and organization that runs certification courses for business advisors and accountants in 10 countries around the world. Prior to the institute, Peter was the original founder of the global software and education brand mouse, and that he had built a two international consulting and advisory networks across his career. He's a best selling author and creator of a wide range of business tools. And if you actually even go up to Amazon, you'll see some of the other tools there that have been used in over 60,000 businesses around the world. He's a pioneer and SME thought leader, continually innovating and producing simplified management content methodologies and not any more software, but he used to do software as a business owner he founded successfully built his business from a one man business to a multimillion dollar concern and sold it to a multibillion dollar publisher. And he's re acquired the business seven years later and consolidated the methodologies into a SaaS platform. And again, this goes back aways because this is before he so that he's written a number of best selling books and business planning and exit and succession planning. And even in mini MBA program. If you want to look out more about him, you can find him on LinkedIn. We'll have a LinkedIn link for him. So you can find out more about him there. So look, Peter, we're really speaking to an audience today that hopefully it's individuals that are listening to this, that they're interested in furthering their career, or they're looking for something new even maybe this is the thing for them, right. They've always been people who have been involved in business, and they'd like to find some way to new to help people who are in business and help them become much more efficient and effective at running their business. So any of you out there that are listening today this podcast is for you. So let's start with the introduction of book this new book, which is on Amazon that people can get in a Kindle version and they can get in a paperback version. It's called the consulting and advisory Guide to Success. And you mentioned this strong passion for helping others which is why I just said for anybody who wants to help other people. If you're listening, this could be a huge opportunity for you, because we have a certification course you can take which then makes you more qualified to go sit with business owners and advise them how has this passion that you had for so many years, kind of evolved for you? And the outcome being that now the Institute of advisors, can you explain to the audience? Yeah,
Peter Hickey
look, I think there's so many businesses out there, Greg and they're suffering they're struggling there. You've got people that are put their, their, their house on the line, they've got their heart, their energy into a business, and they've, you know, phenomenal, they're brave, they've gone out they've started to build that first part of the business. And then there might be technicians there might just have lost their way and they need help. I need help from someone. And I suppose that passion is being a you know, someone that's gone through that journey myself, someone that's, you know, sort of needed that help and advice and support from someone. There's a whole army of people that we can train to help small to medium sized business. And I think part of what we're trying to do at the institute is we're trying to do a number of things. The first is the existing advisors out in the in the marketplace. We're trying to improve their skill set we're trying to improve their professionalism. The advisory landscape is very much of a cowboy industry. There's no There's no government designated credential or set of standards. And so part of what we're trying to do is to lobby governments to try and build a set of standards. So when we have someone that calls himself, a business advisor, go into a small business that they can, you know, the going through a process, they've got a methodology they've, they're, you know, sort of trained at a level that they can really support and help that small business owner. So the book is all about not so much the the the actual step by step process as you go through, but it's about enabling someone that wants to get into advisory and showing them the sorts of things they could go through. It shows them the sorts of questions they could ask how they can make a difference and how they can win clients and, and really make a positive impact on on those business owners.
Greg Voisen
So Peter, what makes this advisory or this institute of advisors in the certificate different and I know you can explain this then let's say somebody that goes get a Bachelors of Science degree in business management, right? And they come out of college and they go oh, yeah, I can be an advisor but they've really never done it. And you and I both know that it takes sometimes many years of experience to actually get to a point where you're proficient at doing that. How does this expedite that process? And if somebody already has a degree in business or is an accountant, or is a bookkeeper, and they've been doing this, how can this help this group of individuals?
Peter Hickey
Yeah. The I think the very first part is understanding what the role of an advisor is. And when you look at an advisor, an advisor is there to support, nurture and help the business owner grow. But an advisor is also there to hold hands to with the business owner to take them on a journey to be there through the ups and downs to motivate to encourage. These are the sorts of things that you need to really go through and explain to someone that wants to get into an advisory that your role is not just technical competence is not just business experience and imposing that on a business owner. What we have to do is take a holistic approach and we have to sometimes delve into what's going through the mind of you as a business owner, how, how can I like a coach? How can I get the best out of you what what do we need to do? What are your strengths and weaknesses as a business owner, and how can we help you to focus on your strengths? How can we help you to delegate How can we help you to run the business better? And so that comes down to the role of an advisor is more holistic than what most people think?
Greg Voisen
Yeah. Well, what would you say to those coaches that are listening right now that literally are coaching they're called executive coaches, quote, unquote, executive coaches, and there are 1000s of them all across the United States and all across the globe, in many different capacities and they are acting as, again, a determines coach, but there is some psychology to that a big part of it is the psychology that they're utilizing in their practice. I know I've told you this before. I got a master's degree in spiritual psychology, which for me, was the best thing that I ever did when I added this to the consultant write in many listeners right now are going to be saying, well, you know, I'm already a coach. How would this certificate help me? One and two, why should I take the course too? Okay.
Peter Hickey
So the the different types of your coach through a different types of coaching, you talked about executive coaching, so executive coaching is working internally with somebody more on their personal skills, their objectives, helping them to in their capacity in their role to get to the next level. business coaching business advisory is really working on the business through the business owner. So what we're doing is looking more holistically at the organization. We're looking at, probably that first part is what's holding the business back, looking at a strategic sort of planning process, and then looking at some sort of accountability program that can be delegated. So the the certification program we run helps a typical, if you're a coach and coming from that framework, it helps you to be probably a little bit more technical. from the business perspective. If you're a accountant coming into the program, it helps you to focus on non financial metrics and understanding who the business owner is, rather than just financial metrics. So, so the the program that helps and what we talk about is the three steps of advisory, which is that initial engagement, identifying what's holding the business back looking holistically at a roadmap to go forward, and then taking that roadmap segregated into smaller accountability pieces, and then keeping the business owner accountable on an ongoing basis.
Greg Voisen
I think the key is that as a roadmap you're actually providing the people that go through the course or roadmap that they can take to their business clients and follow in a systematic way to actually have a better outcome versus flying off here flying off. They're doing this doing that. Now you also shared seven tips to becoming a great advisor in the book. Could you share those tips with the listeners and what are considered what you call a starting and advisory practice? Right? So as everybody wants to be a great advisor, not everybody is but you have a part in this course that teaches people about becoming a great advisor.
Peter Hickey
Well, if you want to become a great advisor, I think first of all, it's it's looking at what is the business owner want? Says looking you've got to understand the role of the advice and as we talked about before, it's understanding from a personal perspective, what the business owner is going through. So you need to be able to connect with that business owner. You need to be able to identify what's happening. And you do that through asking open questions, finding out what's holding you back, you know, what are the pain points you're experiencing? Then from there, we want to sort of like delve into that to move that to the next level, to connect with you emotionally to help you to afford and then also connect with you technically on what needs to be done. So a good adviser is somebody that's going to go through and connect with a business owner that have a process. And I think what what happens is that a lot of advisors don't have a process they don't have a methodology. We need to have that process that methodology. We need to be strong, we need to be motivational. And we need to I think what really identifies a good advisor is an ongoing accountability program, as well. Well
Greg Voisen
I think the most important thing is when you sell the contract initially, whatever it might be, you need to have milestones for wins. Right? There needs to be wins in there for the owner, that he feels that the money he's spending that he hired you to do, that he is getting or she is getting their money's worth. And you call him refining and developing your skills. You discuss three critical skill sets that divisor needs to master. Which of these do you believe is the most challenging to develop and why? Because there are many well, there's three critical ones, but there's a lot of others that are maybe not so critical.
Peter Hickey
is personal and sales skills that have got to understand how to create a good impression, how to sell their services. The second is marketing skills. They've got to be able to understand how to market themselves, what promotional material how to build a website, how to position themselves how to stand out from the crowd, what documents are going to go through, what's the price point going to look like? And the third is, you can have all of that but if you don't know your stuff, you got to have technical competency. You've got to have business competent business experience. You've got to understand and have been at the coal frat or understand what a business owner is going through.
Greg Voisen
Those are really good ones. And I think that of the ones that you have outlined in the book, like you said, there's 20 The reality is those three are very critical. Now I mentioned a minute ago about the roadmap and I said benchmarks and you got to use this as a basis for improvement. Things have to be improving. When you start becoming an advisor for the client. How can advisors measure their progress in both the improvement in the business and also their own skill set because as their skills get better, it expedites and it they can do it a lot quicker. Yeah, yep.
Peter Hickey
So for the business itself, the you know, we recommend that some sort of a scorecard is identified in the beginning of the program, and is used in a monthly or quarterly meeting with a client. So what we do is and the most important part that we sort of reach in the course and as we go through it, that scorecard can't be just about financial metrics. It can't be just about sales, gross profit growth or whatever. It's got to involve also the non financial metrics. So things like conversion rates, number of product returns anything that's identifying leads coming into the business website visitors. So it's got to be looking both at what we talked about and for you, if you think about management theory, something like a balanced scorecard, Kaplan and Norton 9090 to develop, which had four quadrants, so we're looking at innovation we're looking at customer, we're looking at financial, and we're looking at internally in the organization. So we want to develop that scorecard. And we want to our monthly meetings or quarterly meetings, or running an accountability program on that scorecard.
Greg Voisen
Yeah, and I'd say this part is the, the meat and bones of it, right. It's very critical, critical part of what it is that you're doing, and having this scorecard and measuring your progress and like you said, all these indicators like KPIs, right, key performance indicators, this is the kind of things that would be on those scorecards, correct. Yep. For for that as well. I know you didn't mention it, but I was like, okay, yeah, there's got to be key performance indicators there. So look, why, let's let's kind of go back here a second. In selling ourselves. Yep. We always have to make first good impressions and everybody says you have seven seconds for vital business people to actually connect. And they've already made a judgement about you. I like Peter. I like Greg, I don't, I don't. And what techniques do you recommend for achieving a higher rate of what's called likability, right? One and can you give an example of how a poor first impression might derail a potential client relationship? Because, you know, this happens. Time and time again. I see it. Yeah.
Peter Hickey
I think the first impression, you walk in the door, right? So you've got a client there or prospect and you've just opened the door, you sat down at a desk. The first thing you would do is you've got eye contact. So you got to have eye contact. You got to have a face that looks like you want to be there. Right? Looks like you sort of you've got to have that immediate reaction. You've got to be using this 42 muscles in the face. You got to be using those muscles in the face. As you go through that meeting with the client. You've and then I think it's it's it's the tone of your voice. What you got to understand is that that business owner, that business prospect will not trust you in the beginning. There's this sort of dance that you do. There's got to be a rhythm to the play in those first meetings. And so you start the first impression you have is the smile on your face. It's the I'm pleased to see you it's what you dress the professor's or what you look like. It's the tone of your voice. The tone of your voice is so important. It's not showing and when you're early to advisory, you show fear on your face, your eyebrows go up and you go back and and you just you don't look competent to practicing and what we talk about with advisors is, you know, it's funny when you're talking to sort of 4050 and 60 year olds about or whoever, however old you are about practicing in the mirror before you go into that meeting, about practicing with a partner or an accountability partner, but everything is so important in your face that recognition, you've got to understand that you are the product. You know, you're not selling a product you're selling yourself. And when you sell yourself, this person is going to be paying 2030 50,000 $100,000 to buy you and so they've got to trust you. And then I think the other thing is when you go into that meeting, you've got to have a plan. So when a client says to you, we're so what do you want to talk about? How are we going to do it? You've got to have the right open questions. You got to have the right script. And it's really interesting. The difference in a phrase in that script, the difference in your tone can mean that you either win that client over or you lose that client. And it's like if you ask closed questions, yes or no questions, the conversation is gonna go nowhere. If I ask a question like you called me in, there's obviously a reason that you've got in your mind for why this meeting should take place. Tell me what is it that you're looking for? That's that's an open question. What's holding your business back? If you could compare yourself to your biggest competitor? How would you see how are you stronger? How are you weak? So these are questions that are in fact, defined to delegate do you find you're good at delegating? Do you find you? And so what we want to do is and everything that you say, Greg, I'm gonna have to when you're a rookie advisor, and we talked about going from rookie to experience when you're a rookie advisor, you're going to ask questions you're not going to follow through, you're not going to connect in the conversation as an experience advisor or someone that's getting good at their craft. You're having a conversation like I'm having to in a pub, I'm taking what you're saying, I'm understanding it, I'm feeling it emotionally. And then I'm moving on to the next point and structuring it into a into a structured process. And then if I want to be a clever advisor, if it's going to close that client, I've got to have a funneling process to get down to the point that hits the emotional mark that then sells the return on investment that then sells the assignment.
Greg Voisen
Yeah, I think that you use too good terminology there to kind of like, peel back the onion. You literally have to kind of peel back the layers and layers and layers of this. And that's how you start to make a deeper connection with people. And then after you've asked these questions you need to be able to put the dots together afterwards, which is why I have this next question. You know, the book includes these practical examples and templates for marketing. And you know, where people actually fail quite a bit at this is really in how they market their services. Right. And yes, it's one thing for us to make a good impression but it's another thing to be able to have really good marketing collateral really good language really good way to approach us Can you discuss how advisors can customize uh, you know, you in the book, you've got it. These to fit kind of their unique practice because you have a lot of different template templates.
Peter Hickey
There. So we got we got heat templates in the book. We actually go through which is probably the best reaction we've had to section in the book is the 23 step case study. We do with Fred the adviser. And that sort of goes through exactly that. Fred step setting up a new practice. The first thing he's got to ask himself is who's his target market? Who is he trying to appeal to? I don't think anybody listening to this. The most important tip or fast track for success and a practice is to try and get a distinct target market to try and get someone to focus on. Then there's a lot of things from videos that you can put on your website that we have at the institute when you become a member and do the course there's brochures that are editable that you can automatically, you know, just update with your logo, etc. But you can take them and you can customize them for a target market. So you can be specializing in the dentistry in the industry, in the engineering in production in exporting, but these templates can be crafted. And the I sort of always, always talking about there's three or four words that can increase the effectiveness of any copy. So if I have the 10 step, profit improvement program or five ways to exit your business, I can multiply the effectiveness by 10 by just adding a few words to that, and a few words for the dental industry, for accountants for manufacturers. So by putting your overlaying your specialty onto our templates, you can really build the power of that marketing.
Greg Voisen
Yeah, and I think this book is a great place for the listeners right now that are thinking about this to start. And I want to say that, you know, you've made a little bit of an offer from a standpoint of the number of books so I want to let all the lovely listeners know, you can contact me, and I'd be more than happy to get you a book and here's the caveat, if you're interested in actually looking further into the Institute of advisors course. So this book is really a tool and if you're not, we're gonna have a link to Amazon. You can just go to Amazon and buy the book. But if you have further more in depth kind of interest, definitely contact me and I'll get you a book. Now. Let's talk about business owners, all of them. They have more than two sets of goals, but let's just talk about the two. One is aligning business goals with personal values and lifestyle. When a person exit their business, they're frequently going well. What is my relevance anymore? You familiar with that question that answer? They don't believe they're relevant. They've gotten too old. They're putting out the past year the kids are taking the business over. How do you help somebody no matter what stage business they're in, to think about the long term and really be thinking about also the exit strategy because a lot of times people will start a business and you know, they're really ready. They want to exit in like three years, right? They're saying, okay, great. I'm gonna exit out of this business and do something else. It very seldom happens that way. But that is kind of what a lot of people tell you right. So give us some some of your sage advice on that long term planning for a business all the way to succession and alignment of values.
Peter Hickey
Yep. I think it starts in the beginning. And I think it's an our friend that just passed away Peter Christmas with the three legs of the stool. I think what we're gonna do is and we've got to talk to a business owner and say, look, what are you planning on doing? Where's his business guy you got in it for a dream that you want to make a difference? That all the one inevitable fact is that all business owners will exit the business one day you need to be carried out in the coffin or you will leave of your own free will. So what is your journey? When do you think that will be and then what we want to talk about is getting yourself ready from from first of all the value of the business, you know, how do we drive the business value? Where are the gaps? What are we planning for and if we can plan that in the beginning Greg, we can set a plan well, look, we want to sell to multinational in this area, we could start pitching the business and changing the business to go in that direction. So it's a lot more valuable in the future. The second area is that there's a lot of things you can do in the beginning the way you set up your tax structures the way you set up your personal financial planning. Your insurance isn't that. So there's a couple of reasons for that, that we want to think about that from beginning one is long term tax planning and, and that and the second reason is in case of some sort of disaster that might happen with some sort of sickness or incapacitation. Or death in the business which happens. So you want to make sure that you prepared from that perspective that the exit comes prematurely, not to your own accord. And the third side is and this is as you mentioned, and I can tell you, Greg that I will talk to business owners about this and I've been taught myself where I build a business up, sold it to a multinational and then you sort of feel a bit lost, you don't feel relevant, you haven't got a purpose. And you know, and I've having helped, like hundreds of business owners go through the same journey. It's very common, but they leave and they they find it difficult to find sorts it's it's rare that somebody finds themselves without proper planning. And and I see too many business owners suffer emotionally and the problem here is, and I'll give you one example where there was a friend of mine that wanted to exit and I kept saying to him, just be prepared what you're gonna do after I'll be right I'll be right I kept saying it to him for sort of 12 months file right before he exited. And like literally within a month, he was a wreck of himself. And it was hard to put the finger on exactly what it was because he got more than enough money for the business. It was just he felt he led his staff down by leaving and he felt he had nothing to do and and all that and everything I'll warn him about so the the the warning signs to business owners weaken as an advisor or as somebody that's helping a business owner. Let's talk about the three legs of a stool. As a business owner, the challenge is for you to take the third leg of the stool seriously enough and understand its impact because it has a huge impact on what happens after you exit.
Greg Voisen
And to add to that, I think it's so important that you start that as early as possible. Yeah, there's no time like the present, right? A lot of people go well, I'm just trying to get by here. And I go well, what you're trying to do is grow this business so that someday you can sell it or transferred to your children or whatever. But what is the plan? What is it that we're really going for? I mean that old cliche that people say that you've heard a zillion times and everybody out there has heard you know, people spend more time planning their vacation than they do planning their life goals or their what they want to do in life, right? And you find this is true even for some very successful business owners. You know, it's like, well, where's the next vacation? Or where's this? I just got a text from one of mine and he goes, Oh, I'm headed to Switzerland for the next week. And he's in the middle of trying to do a succession plan, right? And it's like, Well, are you or is Switzerland more important? Are you done right? So I say that in jest because he's not the only one. There's a lot of people that do that. Right. So the other point
Peter Hickey
you raised a Greg is it. You've got this? Yeah. Whether or not you're a manager in a business and you want to transition to retirement. You know, you're you're starting to go into that retirement or you're a business owner, it's retained that there's an army of people out there. There's an army of people out there that has got fantastic business experience. And some of those who have been told Geez, you got a great caring nature about you, you'd be great as an advisor. And so there's an army of people out there that could help small to medium sized business could help others to go through the journey that they've been through in their in that past business experience. And that's the army of people that that we wanted to sort of motivate and we want to train up to so that if they decide they want to help small to medium sized business, they can give us a great support platform.
Greg Voisen
Yeah, and look, when people build their boards, they bring on people of different calendars. And skill sets and your adviser meaning the business advisor is one and I know I've been on many boards. Even as the business advisors, there is no conflict of interest. You're there to help the business grow. You're there to help the business owner. And I think the more boards actually you can sit on, the better off it can be. Because then, you know you've built up the trust, right? Sometimes that's the ultimate when you're actually asked to be on the board because they know the advice you're giving is of high value, right? Whether they're paying you a board of advisors fee or not. The reality is, it's it's a nice accolade to have. So now look, we've covered a lot of ground here in the last 45 minutes. If you were to leave our listeners with three main points to take away from the book. And by the way, folks, this is a new book, this book just came out last month. What would they be and how would you recommend using these these bits of advice for them to succeed?
Peter Hickey
But I think the first is that understand the role of the advisor so just think about why people would engage in advisor and then reverse engineer that into the skills that you would need to have. Right? So thinking about confidence, credibility, building rapport. The other thing is to have a plan to understand if you're going to set up an advisory practice. How much are you going to charge? What are you going to do? What questions are going to ask what's your process going to look like? You know, how do you move into a monthly engagement? How do you build a profitable business so to have a business plan or or some sort of solid step by step program that you're going to go through? I think the last thing is that you've got to really connect with people. You've got to love talking and helping people and talk to as many business owners as you can, you know, and just connect with them ask questions have a natural curiosity and a sense of care for them. And, and, you know, if you practice, practice, practice, you're going to be a better advisor. So I would take on board you know, those sort of three areas is as key to start off with, and then you asked, how can they help or how can we help in that process? I think the course that we've got will take them through that entire process. It will give them the questions to ask. It will give them sample proposals. It will give them sample client discovery, MIDI samples, strategic templates, it'll give them ready made, brochures and marketing gives them a set of standards. It gives them sort of a step by step sort of flow through from start to finish. And and we would love to talk to anybody on the call about becoming certified. There's a whole information pack there. There's guides we've got if you are just on how to be a good advisor that we put out there to educate the market, and we'd be more than happy to share those resources with you Greg through your community.
Greg Voisen
Well, Peter, one thing I can say and this is wholeheartedly you know, we've known each other a long time and for my listeners, I do bring guests on that I believe have something of tremendous value here. And one of the things I want to say is Peter has published methodologies and assessments in exit succession planning, business planning that has been used by over 10,000 advisors, including advisors from the largest banks in the US and he's one that Ernst and Young NSA N SW Entrepreneur of the Year award. And that was a while ago, but the point is, is that he has aggregated the content which an advisor would need to be able to actually be a successful advisors. This is my little bit of a commercial for this at this point. But the reality is, is that you have to know go check it out. Institute advisors.com. There you can learn more. You'll also be able to get in touch with me because we're gonna have information for you to reach out to me as well. Peter, I want to thank you for being on inside personal growth, because this is a journey that not only the advisor takes, but the advisor takes with the business person themselves. And when you start to get all the interpersonal skills that are required, and all the skill sets that are needed. To be a good advisor, you really realize that this is a very small investment number one and two. All the tools that he's developed, are all there. It's all available for you. It's like somebody's already done it for you. And let's face it, we're all trying to find a quicker, more efficient, better way to do this. Thanks for being on inside personal growth and thanks for taking the time to address our listeners and advisors with more knowledge and information. Big
Peter Hickey
Greg and thank you very much for having me on.
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Inside Personal Growth with Greg Voisen · Podcast 1159: Blind Ambition: How to Go from Victim to VisionaryIn this compelling episode of Inside Personal Growth, we sit down with Chad E. Foster, a remarkable individual whose story transcends the boundaries of physical limitations and delves into the heart of human potential. Chad is the author of Blind Ambition: How to Go from Victim to Visionary, a book that chronicles his journey from losing his eyesight to becoming a highly successful corporate leader and sought-after speaker. His message is clear: life’s challenges do not define us—how we respond to them does.
The Journey to Blind AmbitionChad E. Foster was on a typical path toward a bright future when his life took an unexpected turn. Diagnosed with retinitis pigmentosa, a rare genetic condition that causes vision loss, Chad’s world slowly began to darken. By his late teens, he was legally blind. For many, this would be a devastating blow—a perceived end to career ambitions and an independent life. But Chad saw this challenge as an opportunity to redefine his future and take control of his destiny.
In our interview, Chad discusses how losing his sight forced him to cultivate a new kind of vision, one not dependent on sight but on clarity of purpose, mental toughness, and inner strength. He learned to “see” in ways that most people overlook, sharpening his emotional intelligence, resilience, and problem-solving skills. This ability to adapt became his greatest asset, propelling him to heights he never imagined.
The Power of Choice: Victim or Visionary?One of the most profound themes Chad shares in his book Blind Ambition and in our conversation is the power of choice. In the face of hardship, we all have a choice: we can either see ourselves as victims of circumstance or as visionaries, capable of reimagining our future. For Chad, this mindset shift was crucial.
Rather than focusing on what he had lost, Chad chose to focus on what he could gain—new ways of thinking, learning, and leading. He attributes much of his success to embracing this “visionary” mindset, allowing him to build a thriving career in technology, working for industry giants like Red Hat and Salesforce, all while living with blindness.
Blind Ambition: The Philosophy Behind the BookChad’s book, Blind Ambition, encapsulates the core of his philosophy: that ambition, when driven by purpose and resilience, knows no bounds. He encourages readers to pursue their goals with unwavering commitment, regardless of the obstacles they face. In the book, Chad offers actionable strategies for transforming challenges into opportunities, fostering a growth mindset, and achieving success in the face of adversity.
Throughout our discussion, Chad shares several powerful stories and insights from the book, including how he navigated the tech industry as a blind professional, how he built a successful career while facing significant personal challenges, and how he continues to inspire others to live beyond their perceived limitations.
Following Chad’s JourneyChad E. Foster’s story is a testament to the human spirit’s resilience and capacity for growth. His message is clear: we all have the potential to live beyond our limitations, to see opportunities where others see obstacles, and to become visionaries in our own right. You can follow Chad’s ongoing journey of inspiration and leadership on his Instagram and Facebook, where he shares regular insights on how to live a life of purpose and ambition.
You may also refer to the transcripts below for the full transciption (not edited) of the interview.
Interview Transcipt -Not EditedEmailDownloadNew TabGreg Voisen
Welcome back to Inside personal growth. This is Greg voisen, host of inside personal growth. And joining me from Atlanta, Georgia, is Chad e Foster and Chad has a new book out, and I'm going to hold it up here, Chad, and you can all see it on the back of his screen as well blind ambition, and it's how to go from victim to visionary. Chad, Good day to you. How you doing? Doing great.
Chad Foster
Greg, how are you doing this morning?
Greg Voisen
Great. It's a pleasure having you on the show, and I'm so happy that we got this opportunity to spend a few minutes with my listeners, because I think they're really going to get a lot out of your story and how you've lived your life, and I want to give them a little bit of background. Chad is a husband, a father and an avid snow skier, and that's no joke. And for all of you listening, if you haven't already figured out, Chad is blind, and I've seen some of the videos on YouTube of him skiing. He is not just competing with his condition, he's competing with the world's most successful people. Chad wants to make blind look good and believes he is not successful in spite of being blind, but because he's blind, he embraced his problem and turned it into a solution. He works at Red Hat, one of the world's most innovative tech companies and the world's largest open source software company, recently purchased by IBM for 34 billion with determination and ambition, which this guy has mountains of it and drive. He created what Oracle would say would be impossible. He gave millions of people the ability to earn a living by becoming the first to create customer relation, or CRM software for the visually impaired with speaking initiatives from London to Beijing and Atlanta. Opera, I commissioned an opera inspired by his life story. Chad inspires people all over the world, and he wants people to learn from their own blind spots. Well, Chad, that's quite a bio for all my listeners, just go to the website that you're going to want to go to is Chad e Forrester fo I'm sorry, Forrester F, O, S, T, E, R, there. You can learn more about Chad. There's all kinds of great information there, including information about the book. You can inquire about his speaking engagements. You can inquire personally about him as well. Well, I want to just kind of kick this off, because everybody knows at this point who's listening or watching that you literally are blind. And I think it's good to tell the story share kind of the moment when you realize you kind of lost your sight and and then you realize it wasn't the end, but the beginning of a new perspective. And I think that's, you know, for most people listening, that's going to be the most important part. Is when you lose something you gain something else.
Chad Foster
Yeah, the thing is, it happened sort of gradually over time, and there were a few moments, you know, there were moments growing up when I realized I just couldn't see as well as other people in certain situations, maybe it was at dark or at dusk, and that was kind of challenging learning the limitations of my eyesight, although I could still see fine during the day, I played sports, I I drove a car, I did all those things that young kids do. And then when I was in college, that's when my eyesight began to fade, really during the day, to where I couldn't even see to complete my classes, I had to get a medical withdrawal from my from my major, from my classes. I wanted to go into the medical field because I wanted to help other people, and then, as I'm going blind, I'm not even sure if I can help myself, you know. So I switched my major to business. Lost nearly three years of university work because all the work that I've done towards pre med wasn't applicable in the business area, and so had to really do a reset and try and figure out what I wanted to be when I grew up. Because, you know, we ask kids all the time what they want to be, and it sure isn't blind, right? That's not what people dream of being. And so really did have to reset at that point. And this is roughly 21 years old, 23 years old, I went to get my first seeing eye dog, and that really is where things shifted for me. You know, that experience getting my first seeing eye dog and arriving on the campus there and thinking that, you know, life was pretty bad. I was a victim, and all my friends were able to see and they didn't have any real disabilities they were dealing with. And here I was dealing with this, this condition, and I rolled in there with this victim mentality, and I met people there that really inspired me, you know, people who had it far worse off than I did. Some of the people had diabetes, and so they were on dialysis all the time, and some people had multiple disabilities, whether it was mental or hearing and visual disabilities, ie they were deaf and blind, and they were chasing the world and their dreams with such hope and optimism and living courage that it made me ashamed of my pathetic attitude in the way that I'd looked at my situation. And so that's when I really started to to embrace my situation and accept it, because I appreciated what I had been given. And that really is the the foundation for everything is gratitude. And looking at, you know, the 20 something years of eyesight that I'd had, all of my hearing, all my mental faculties, all the things that many of these people whom I've grown close with never had, and here I am living with them for almost a month, you know, 26 days there. It just completely reshaped my perspective on everything, and it showed me that happiness, and even success, for that matter, they're not events. You know, happiness is not a feeling, and it's not an emotion, it's a decision that you make every single day, when you wake up and it's it's linked to your perspective in the way you've attached yourself to circumstances. And so that really was the moment for me, when I started to reevaluate my approach towards everything. I didn't have all the answers at this point, but I certainly had a new attitude and a new outlook on life and the things that I'd been given in the circumstances that I found myself in.
Greg Voisen
Well, mentally, obviously, this is as much a mental game as it is the physical part, where you lost the site, and I think working on yourself psychologically and emotionally is really as difficult of a journey as working on yourself, because now you need a seeing eye dog, right? Yeah. And so I think for our listeners, what would be a really important thing to kind of explain to them is as you gradually went blind and you knew this was ultimately going to be the outcome, and you first triggered this, what we're going to call victim mentality. What are a few of the things that you were able to do or that other people helped you do, to have this visionary mindset, this mindset of, okay, I'm accepting who I am now. I'm blind. I can still do things. Were there a couple of few things that just really triggered for you, that were really embedded within your mind, that that would help people out there today say, Hey, these are ways for me to change my own perspective.
Chad Foster
Think it probably started with, you know, looking at the fact that there there are more options. And so early on, it started to occur to me that I didn't have much of a choice in this situation. So just my logical brain kicked in and said, Look, I don't have I don't have an option here. Nobody asked me if I wanted to go blind. And so this was forced upon me. Certainly wasn't something that I'd hoped or wished for. So I couldn't change it. And so logically speaking, you know, I could sit around and spend all my energy ruminating on why this is unfair and all these things, but that wouldn't change the reality of the situation. So that wasn't going to do me a lot of good. And so instead of focusing on what I could not control, the circumstances that were forced upon me, what I started to notice were things that gave me hope and optimism. And that hope and optimism, you know, created agency. For me, there were things that gave me agency in the situation. And whenever we have or feel like we have, agency that gives us hope and that gives us optimism, and that causes us to really act and to move forward, and then that progress allows us to continue. And for me, it was discovering that there were computers out there, so I went to go get my first seeing eye dog. I mentioned that earlier, and I'm there, and there's a roommate that I've got, you know, one of the guys that I became friends with, and he says he's going down the hall to check his email. And this is back in 99 I guess it was 9899 and it was 99 and I'm like, Yo, dude, you're blind. How are you going to check your email? What are you talking about? He's like, Oh, now they have software down there and talks to you. It's on a computer. It's called screen reading software. I'm going to go check up on my email. And thought, Wow, that's pretty cool. I never even heard of this here. I am 23 years old in college. Never really heard of this tool, and so I was not prepared at all for what was coming. But the fact that there were tools available at that time that sort of gave me that that hope and that optimism and that agency in the situation. So I I came back and started to learn about this technology, started to get really familiar with it, how to use it, and then eventually, as I launched into the professional workforce, I came back to college, ended up making straight A's, made the Dean's List. My mom read all my college books to cassette for me, audio cassettes. For those who don't know what those are, they can look those up, maybe in a museum somewhere,
Greg Voisen
cassette or CD. Yeah, exactly. There's
Chad Foster
somewhere in a Smithsonian Institute somewhere, but those are things we used to use to listen to audio. Back in the day, my mom read all of those cassettes, all those books, the cassette for me. And it turns out I was actually a better blind student than sighted student, you know, because I was forced to not just memorize shortcut my way through class. I was forced to listen to the book, and I read the book twice. I listened to the lectures twice, went over my notes with the note taker that the university had assigned. I ended up making straight A's all throughout my college of Business Administration courses, not because I'm a genius, but because I couldn't shortcut it. I had to really take the time and put in the extra effort. Going blind forced me to really be committed and to be focused and to have that determination. And so do do
Greg Voisen
you think Chad, that you became extremely auditory? You know, people say kinesthetic, auditory, visual. You know, obviously you couldn't be visual anymore, but you certainly became auditory when your mom read your books on cassette, and you were able to learn that way. And you know, you, you said you had to rejigger everything that you'd been studying to be a medical doctor, or at least be in medicine. And so you, you rejiggered. Uh, how do your background in business analytics and finance modeling kind of prepare you for the challenges of navigating a life without sight. And then let's talk a little bit about this CRM that you created that really has changed the world for 1000s of sightless people, to really be able to to have work and to make a contribution in a big way and get paid for it, I
Chad Foster
think Greg, the big thing to take away is I wasn't an expert in modeling and analysis and all those things. As I went blind, that was the path that my career led me down, but it was very fortuitous for me, because it's very analytical and solutions oriented, and when I needed to write code to engineer software without being able to see my computer screen, there was a way to do that. I could do it by listening to what I was hearing. As you mentioned, I had to change my learning style. I was a visual learner, which obviously wasn't all that helpful. After I went blind, had to relearn how to learn. Became more of an auditory learner, that then translated into way that I use a computer, which is, I have these earplugs in, these little earbuds, and they let me hear what's going on with the computer on screen and and the program and so on. And that really is how I learned how to use a computer and then troubleshoot, and then eventually write code, and they get to where I could build financial models, very complex Excel spreadsheet models. I was doing the financial modeling for multi billion dollar commercial outsourcing transactions. We literally had hundreds of individual Excel files with 1015, tabs in each 110s, of 1000s of calculations all over the place. Everything's interlinked and interconnected all the way from the very bottom of the architecture to the the top of the client facing architecture. And just getting familiar with that, and it helped me, because I was used to writing code to write software applications, and when you can do that writing a complex set of formulas isn't all that challenging. I could literally do it with mines closed. So that really helped me, I think, have a solutions orientation towards not only my job, but towards what I needed to do on a day to day basis, just to get to and from my job, just to travel, whether it's down the down the road, or across the globe. You know, I travel all over the world for work I have done so for quite some time, whether it's corporate or speaking or otherwise, and so having that solutions focus has really helped me. And as that relates to the CRM solution that you're talking about, I had a friend of mine who we worked together at Anderson Consulting back in the day when it was called Anderson Consulting. Now it's referred to as Accenture, and he had called me because they had a customer who couldn't do his job because there was a problem between their CRM system and the screen reading software that was used by the blind. And so I did what I normally do, I sat down, I looked at it, I wrote some code, and took me some time, but I built a software solution that talked to the back end of this CRM system. And so the CRM system not to get too technical for your audience, but it was done in a web browser, so what was known as a thin client environment, and in particular, it's called Siebel Hiner activity framework. And the owner of the application at the time was Oracle. Oracle had bought it from Siebel, and Oracle was going around telling people that it was impossible to make this particular deployment accessible, but I had already actually done and I'd made it accessible. And so I had Oracle on the phone, had the manufacturer of the software, the screen reading software on the phone, and they were both saying, Hey, we don't think this is doable. And I had my client on the phone said, yeah, actually it is doable, because we've had an employee doing his job with the software that Chad wrote for the last year. So we know it is possible. And what I had to do, essentially, was reverse engineer all of the HTML source code and connect the dots on that with the on screen ActiveX plugins that were inside the browser. And nobody had really thought to do that at the time, I was the only person in the world who could do it. In fact, unfortunately, I got called to testify in a few court cases. Because of that, I was the only person who knew how to do it. And so it was related to accommodations and things. And so this obviously unlocked job opportunities for millions of blind people, because there was a way for them to do the job related to customer service using this tool, and it was a widely used and widely available tool that was used in commercial aspects as well as well as across government. And so it was great opportunity to really unlock those opportunities and level the playing field for everybody, regardless of their disability or diverse abilities.
Greg Voisen
And what's the name of that tool you had given to me before we did the pre interview, but I can't remember right now.
Chad Foster
Well, the tool is it's just a it was a custom software solution for Siebel high interactivity framework. I didn't really give it a formal name. It was just the code that I'd wrote. Had it translated into multiple languages for various clients. I started getting referral business from Oracle. They started sending people my way because they didn't think it could be done up until then. And so I ended up that actually paid for our first vacation home. Well,
Greg Voisen
I actually, I actually went last time and checked it out, and it is fascinating. So for all my listeners, go, go, take a look at that. Now you you said that you're gonna switch gears her for acceptance a second, but the role of humor, uh, plays an important role in your journey for more self self acceptance. And I think people are way too serious out there today. We're all, you know, just exceptionally serious about pretty much stuff. How can others use humor to kind of overcome these challenges? I mean, look, you were obviously went blind. You had to look at a different way. I don't think people would look at it too humorously. So how did you
Chad Foster
Well, I couldn't change it. You know, if I can't change the situation, why do I want to be miserable, miserable about something that I can't change? You know, sitting around and feeling sorry for myself for the rest of my life didn't sound like a very good proposition. I'm a pretty optimistic person by nature. But even when things don't look positive, how do you look at blindness and go, Well, how do you make light of that? Well, the fact of the matter is, no matter how I approach the condition, it's not going to change whether or not I'm blind. So do I want to be blind bitter and unhappy, or do I want to be blind and happy and at peace. And, you know, having fun with the situation. I just want to make the best of of any situation. Sure, I didn't want to sign up for this, but it's the way that the cards were dealt. And, you know, at the end of the day, you know, I've got what? By the time I went blind, roughly 5060 years left in my life. You know, living the next 50 or 60 years of my life, being blind and bitter, that's a lot of miserable.
Greg Voisen
What I think is kind of, yeah, it's kind of acceptance of what is, I know, in the Buddhist philosophy, we say, you know, there's pain and suffering and then there's the end of pain and suffering. And the end of pain and suffering really is as simple as when you shift your mind to say, hey, I don't want to have that pain and suffering anymore, right? And and so that's the acceptance.
Chad Foster
Well, I think, I think part of that real quick, Greg, I think the pain in life is mandatory. I think it's the suffering that's optional. And the suffering becomes optional when we learn how to attach ourselves differently to the circumstances, the meaning we attach to circumstances. And so I could sit around for the rest of my life telling myself that I went blind because I've got terrible luck, and that would create, I think, more suffering. Instead, I chose to tell myself that I went blind because I'm one of the very few people on the planet who has the strength and the toughness to overcome that, and I could use it to help other people. Now, you see, technically, both of those stories can be true, but one of those stories paints me as a victim, and it creates the suffering. The pain is still there. I still have the loss. I still won't be able to see things. I'll never see my kids. I'll never see my wife, all those things, but the suffering disappears because of the meaning I've attached to my circumstances. Now I went blind because I'm uniquely qualified to navigate that and help other people navigate their own blind spots, which gives new meaning, a new purpose, to the challenges that I face on a day to day basis. So the pain is the same, but the suffering dissipates. So
Greg Voisen
you you speak in the book too about authenticity, and that being blind forced you to live your life authentically. Now we hear this word. We hear the word thrown around a lot. How can people without disabilities cultivate the same level of authenticity in their lives, because probably 99% of the people listening to the show are not blind, right? And so here you are, and I think you could give people a good formula here for like, Okay, what does authenticity mean? Being true to yourself and to your vision, living your life that resonates with you. How would you tell people out there today listening to focus in on being more authentically themselves? I
Chad Foster
think all of us have areas of ourselves that we're not particularly fond of, you know, things that we might try to hide from other people, and maybe even from ourselves. For me, it was blindness. For years, I tried to hide the fact that I was losing my eyesight. I tried to pretend like I could see fine. I tried to not use a cane, not use a dog for some time, and was bumping into people. It was awkward, and what I was really doing was trying to, trying to pretend to be somebody I was not. Instead of embracing the thing that I was trying to hide, I was trying to prevent other people from knowing that I had a visual impairment. And when my eyesight completely faded and I had to get a seeing eye dog to help me get around, it forced me to embrace the thing that I'd been trying to hide. And so I'd recommend everybody really contemplate the value of that, because when you embrace the side of you, the things about you that you're not fond of, and you just own it. I was forced to own my blindness. I walked into university classrooms with 100 pound German Shepherd. You're not hiding a big German Shepherd in a classroom. It's just not happening. And so people knew that I had a vision impairment, and it forced me to own my situation, and that got me really It forced me to be unapologetic and authentic to who I am, not making any excuses, not making any apologies. Look, this is me. This is my situation. I didn't sign up for this, but I'm going to make the best of it. I think, really thinking about parts of us that we're not particularly fond of, and if we can't change it, how do we embrace that? To me, that's really where the rubber meets the road, because it's easy to be authentic about the parts of us that we love. But wow, what if you could take something that you didn't love about yourself, like going blind, learn how to embrace it, learn how to own it, and eventually learn that that flaw, that perceived flaw, is actually an asset. It creates value and it creates something unique to you, and you could use that to help other people. And certainly that happened with me. The blindness that I'd been trying to hide and run from for so long created so much opportunity inside of me, not only to help people, but it gave me certain advantages that I would not have had had I not gone blind.
Greg Voisen
Well, you know, it's this. This is a great story, and obviously it's something that's very important for our listeners to reflect on. I always have this question, you know, here you are out there and you had your seeing eye dog, is it still Romeo? Or is it now? No,
Chad Foster
I've had a few since then. We've had look at Romeo, we've had Sarge, and now we're up to major. So he got a promo case.
Greg Voisen
So you got major. And I curious, how did you meet your wife? You know, it takes a special kind of woman, right, yeah, to really do that. And then you guys decided to have children too as well, yeah, because you have how many children? Two, two. So how did you meet her? How did your being sightless, if it did at all, impact the relationship? And how has the dog that you've built this amazing relationship with impacted your independence, your ability to be independent, yeah.
Chad Foster
So funny story about how I met my wife, I was out with a friend of mine, and the truth is that my buddy that I was out with that weekend was hitting on her. Oh, okay. He was talking to her, and then he stepped away, and then she came up, she started talking to me, and we chit chatted for about an hour, two hours, whatever, and I'm sitting there the whole time. And you have to understand, by this point, I'm 26 years old. I'd had a seeing eye dog for three years. I was a young man. I was, you know, gainfully employed out of college with a good job. I was a pretty confident guy. Women would often use the dog as an icebreaker to hit on me. It happened all the time, and I went for a couple of years. Yeah, I didn't even buy my own drinks. My friends would get mad at me. They're like, Hey, let me borrow the dog. This is, this is garbage. I want to, I want to use your dog and walk around the bar and see if I can get some of my drinks bought for a minute. And I even had one time we're at a bar in San Diego, and these guys came up to talk to us, just so they could talk to the women that were around us. And so that was kind of interesting and novel, but it kind of got old after a little while. And so I'm talking with who is now my wife, Evie, and I'm talking to her for about an hour or two, and she doesn't say one word about the dog, nothing, not, I like your dog, not what's his name, nothing, not a word. And I'm sitting there wondering myself, wait, is she blind too? Like, what's going on? How does she not mention this 100 pound German Shepherd laying down at my feet the whole time? And so it struck me that this girl's different. You know, she's she's unique. She's got something different about her. She didn't take the easy layup going for the icebreaker. And so that really impressed me. And then the other thing that really impressed me is that she had the courage to move to United States from Brazil at a young age, 2526 years old, no family, no friends, didn't really speak the language to build a life here on her own that is better than what she would have in Brazil. And so that really took a lot of courage, and it really hit me that maybe we were kindred spirits in that regard, because I felt like what I needed to do in my life took some courage to move from Knoxville to Atlanta, start all over, not have any support system, any family, any of that, and take on a job where I was traveling all over the United States and beyond without being able to see so I really kind of felt like we had this, this sort of kindred spirit connection between us, and so we hit it off. From there became friends, and here we are, 23 years later.
Greg Voisen
Congratulations. What a great story. I love it. The dog was being used to attract the ladies, so but, but, you know, look, there's been obviously a lot of discomfort in and we, everybody speaks about discomfort. I had an author come here to San Diego. You just mentioned that. Her name is Jen Drummond. She has seven children. She's climbed all the highest Seven Summits, and now she's doing the second set of the next highest mountains in the world. And I always look at the discomfort that people go through for growth. You know, you look at people who have that kind of ambition, who have that drive and desire, just like you can. You elaborate in a time when you stepped way out of your comfort zone that led to some kind of significant personal or professional growth for you, some big impact in your life.
Chad Foster
I think for me, it's speaking,
Greg Voisen
probably speaking.
Chad Foster
I didn't really want to be a speaker. I I was more scared of speaking than I was dying. I'd rather literally be the guy in the box than the guy giving the eulogy. I didn't want to do that at all. And then I was elected. I felt like I was going to be elected as our graduating speaker when I went to Harvard. And so being a type A person who was terrified of speaking, I did what, what seemed reasonable to me at the time, I flew to Texas, met with a professional speaker, spent a lot of money to write a graduation talk for something I'd not even been nominated or elected to do, and was that
Greg Voisen
was that professional speaker? Jim Cathcart,
Chad Foster
no, no, it was not. Garrison. Wynn, actually.
Greg Voisen
Oh, okay, Garrison, yeah, yeah,
Chad Foster
he's in, he's in Houston, and he and I met, and we carved out a short little talk, 1012, minute talk. And, you know, I was elected to give that talk. I gave that talk. I did very well. Was scared doing it, you know, not someone who was fond of the spotlight or being in front of people. But then I saw how powerfully I could help other people simply by sharing my message in an honest, heartfelt, funny and and straightforward way. And that really inspired me to lean into something that was very scary for me at the time speaking. And so that was, was that eight years ago. And so now I'm, I'll do 14 events over the next 30 days on in four four countries and nine domestic cities. I've got a full speaking calendar now. I have a professional speaking business. The book came out, all those things, all that was very uncomfortable for me at first, but now it's become one of my greatest assets. One of my greatest strengths is using a talent that I've got and speaking who knew I had that to to reach people and empower people to not feel like they have to be victims of their circumstances.
Greg Voisen
Well, I'm glad you took that discomfort and took the high road with it, because the reality is, you're able to provide a message that people need to hear, and I hope everybody listening this podcast hears this as well. Now look, there's a lot of people out there that are struggle with self doubt, just like you did about speaking, right? Especially with it faced with adversity. You're right. Most people would rather die than speak. You know, they they say it's that. It's the worst one, yeah. What advice would you give someone who feels overwhelmed by any challenge that they're faced with, obviously you've been faced with blindness, obviously you have a book out now, obviously you're speaking 14 times in the next month. You know, that's quite a calendar for somebody to keep, and especially when you're blind, and you also have to carry, you know, the have your dog kind of go with you everywhere you go, right? So I always look at that and say, look at the coordination that Chad has to go through to get all this to happen right. And so what is it would you tell people about that might be facing a challenge and there's got a ton of self doubt?
Chad Foster
The first step is the hardest one. Take the first step. Make it a small step. The smaller you can make the first step, the less scary and the less consequential it becomes. The stakes are lower. It's like skiing, right? The first time I skied, I didn't get on a double black diamond. The first time I skied, it was just getting comfortable, doing the magic carpet, getting the bindings on all those things. I'm 38 years old, totally blind. May even just getting comfortable with the fact that I was putting on a set of skis and going down a mountain that took some getting used to. And so you have to start with where stakes are low and you want a big goal. You want this bold vision of greatness that inspires you to take action and inspires you to do the hard work that you need to do, but your first few steps outside of your comfort zone should not be bold and should not be scary. Those should be as low stakes as possible, so that you can start to teach yourself that you are capable of more than you've been giving yourself credit for, because every single one of us, every single one of your listeners, Greg, are capable of more than they give themselves credit for. And we have to learn that ourselves. We have to teach our brain that that is the case. And we do that by by by getting it we get a little scared, and that's fine. It's fine to be a little scared. You know, sometimes you just have to do it scared. You just have to lean into it and recognize that if it doesn't feel at all scary, if it feels totally comfortable. For me, comfort is another word for complacency, and growth never happens with complacency. So if you want to grow, you have to get out of your comfort zone. That's where life begins. Is outside of our comfort zone. So take that first step. It's the the hardest one, the most important one, but don't make it the most consequential one. Don't, don't make it the one with the biggest stakes. Take a small step outside of your comfort zone and start teaching your mind that you are capable of more than you've been giving yourself credit for
Greg Voisen
That's great advice. You say, take a low risk item and apply yourself to it, and take some risk and and and see what happens, and just continue to do that and work your way up. It's like anything. It's like training for a triathlon, right? You're just not going to go out there and go run the in swim and bike, and do it all at once, right? You're going to take each of these in little segments. I know, when I trained people to ride 100 mile bike rides, you know, we would start with like, 15 miles, and then we'd go to 26 miles, and then we'd and we'd do that over a 26 week period, and before they knew it, they were able to finish 105 mile ride. Yeah, and, I think that small little steps, and then you get the reward in the end for the completion. And the reward is, hey, I finished doing this event. This was, I didn't think I could ever do it. It's like, wow, I didn't I that. Then most people said, I don't think I can write 100 miles. And said, yeah, you can. Anybody can. So
Chad Foster
had the same fear when I started training in Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, the first time I did my my first tournament in Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, I was terrified. I was terrified the first time I stepped on the mat. I was getting on the mat with people who had decades of experience, all their faculties, could see, could hear, you know, full eight fully abled people, and here I am totally blind. Never trained before. I'm almost 46 years old. What a great idea. I'll get on the mat with these killers and kind of see what happens. I was terrified, but it's that first step that's the hardest step. It's the most important one to take. And
Greg Voisen
I think when you're blind like that, and I don't know this, but I'm going to surmise it, and you can validate if it's true or not, you get a if you got on the jiu jitsu mat, any kind of mat where there was another I used to wrestle in high school, right? You can feel the energy, right? So if you can sense that somebody, you can almost probably sense where they are, because you're blind. I never closed my eyes when I did wrestling, but the reality was, most of the time I could send, I could feel it. You get this feeling like, okay, there's persons over here, and 90% of the time you're probably right, right, that's
Chad Foster
right, yeah, absolutely, yeah. You use again. I think you gotta take advantage of your disadvantages. And so there's a lot of information I get with my body, because it's Jiu Jitsu, and I can't use my eyes, so all the information I get about my opponent is through the contact that I have with my opponent. And so I would argue that, because the learning doesn't have to pass from my eyes to my body, it goes straight to my body, maybe I'm learning a little more quickly. Now, I'm not saying that I could beat everybody out there. That would be foolish, but I do think not being able to see forces me to learn it at the somatic level first, because I can't I can't learn it with my eyes and then translate it to the body. I have to learn it at the somatic level first, and so maybe that's helped me advance a little more quickly than I otherwise would have.
Greg Voisen
I think in life, everything that you do, you've had to learn at semantic level. And that brings me to this power of persistence and resilience that you talk about in the book. It's one thing to get on the jiu jitsu math once, but or get on the slope once and try it. But it's another thing to get out there and keep doing it and doing and I watch videos if you fall in the snow, like several times, right? We Yeah, we used to call it when my kids were out there, we were teaching them to ski. We called it a yard sale, right? Meaning everything went every different direction. The skis went this way. The snowboard went off, whatever happened. Can Can you? Can you explain to people how you stay motivated in tough days, and what strategies you do you use to maintain this kind of drive and ambition and resilience that you've been able to build up, because some people would just give up, right? They'd fall once, twice, three times. They're like, I'm over it. I'm too wet. It's called out here. I'm done, I'm going in and I'm going to have a hot toddy right? Not, not you. You just kept out there.
Chad Foster
Well, in that, in those cases, I wonder how badly they really wanted it. That's what I start to question, is how badly you really want something? Do you want it badly enough to do the hard work that it takes to get your goal Sure? Skiing for me is harder because I can't see, I can't see the terrain coming at me. I can't anticipate. I have to be in a good body position to accommodate whatever terrain we go over, whether that's, you know, these, what are they called? Like rollers. We hit a roller, we hit moguls, we hit whatever. I need to be in the right position to be able to handle all of those things and that that definitely took some trial and error. And I just, I wanted to learn how to ski more than I wanted to avoid having to pick myself up over and over. And you know, the same is true for Jiu Jitsu. Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, having to to go and get beaten over and over and over, because it's very front loaded to losing. If you don't know what you're doing, you get on the mat, you get, you get submitted by upper belts. It's, it's very common, and it a lot of people's ego can't handle that. And for me, I just think it's the difference between walking in and thinking you're going to be great on day one versus putting in the work to be great over a period of time. You know, I think we live in a culture, quite frankly, where there's this need or desire for instant gratification that has permeated a lot of what we do, whether it's overnight shipping from Amazon or it's young college grads who think they want to, you know, they're ready to be a CEO, or All these things people are. They want it now. The next viral video. I want my I want my fame now. And it sort of takes away from the need to put in the commitment, put in the hard work and build greatness over time. You ever got a lot of people in the gym where I trained Jiu Jitsu, and I don't care how talented, athletic or nimble you are when you roll in the first time ever on the map, you're going to get a big dose of humility, because the people in there have been training for years. They've been going 34567, times a week, some of them for decades. And so how could you ever compete with somebody when you've shown up and maybe you've been doing it for six months, and you think, well, maybe I should be good now. Well, you're better. And if you look at where you started versus where you are, you've made progress. But if you compare yourself, and you look at the amount of work that you put in relative to other people who've been doing it for literally 1020, 30 years, you shouldn't be surprised that you get dominated on the map. And it's this culture that I think that we live in, where we look at other people and we see their progress, and we just wish we could make it happen instantly, and that's a shame, because there's not a lot of fulfillment in that either. I found that with my journey, the amount of work that I've had to put in, whether it's learning how to ski blind or learning how to train in jiu jitsu and compete in Jiu Jitsu, not being able to see or learning how to write code, to engineer software, just to be able to use my computer, that made all the things that I've been able to accomplish all the more enjoyable is the hard work that I had to put in. So yes, it wasn't instant gratification. It was delayed gratification. And I think the delay makes it all the more enjoyable. You know, the steeper the mountain that we have to climb, usually, the better the view at the top. No, no, no, no, blind joke intended. There no,
Greg Voisen
no, not at all. And I And I echo what you're saying, because you know, there's always going to be somebody better than you. Doesn't matter in most cases. Okay, so maybe a Michael Phelps nod or Simone Biles, not because they're triple, quadruple gold medal winners, but the point, the point is, is that, for the most part, there will always be people that are better it. Give you an example of I've been doing this podcast show for 17 years, and, uh, yeah, there's the Joe Rogan's of the world. I'm not Joe Rogan. I don't have that many followers, but I've stuck with it for 17 years. I've enjoyed the journey, and I get to meet people like you, and I'm always grateful. And that brings me to this question of gratitude. In the book, you mentioned the importance of gratitude, how is practicing gratitude influenced your outlook on outlook on life and success. Because I think gratitude is one of the most important things that we can have.
Chad Foster
I think it's hugely important. And I think just tying it to what we were just saying about what I think of as comparisonitis, I think we live in a time of comparisonitis as well, and social media propagates a lot of that. People are looking at everybody else's best lives on Instagram, and they're seeing photos of what they think is their real life, and oftentimes it's just images of best clips from their life. Nobody's showing the harder moments, the tougher times. And people tend to look at that and say, Wow, that's not my life. I must be doing something wrong. I have difficulty, I have hardship. I have all these challenges. And that's a shame, because all of us have difficulty, all of us have hardship, all of us have challenges. But the one comparison, the only comparison that I can think that we should be making it's not to other people anywhere. It's not to the Joe rogans of the world. It's not to the social media, the people on Instagram showing their their images of of their best trips and all those things. The only comparison that is valid at all is comparisons to ourselves. What journey have we been on? Are we a better person than we were yesterday. Are we making progress? You know what? What does the road look like for us? And that's to me, is something that that is missing this comparison, itis. And yeah, I'm coming from a position. I like to compete, too, and I compete when I get on the mat in Jiu Jitsu, and I want to win, but I also recognize when I'm competing against somebody. You know what? They may be better. They may have more preparation, they may have more natural ability. They they it just may be their day. Maybe it's not my day to win, and that's okay. I need to, I need to want to win, but I don't need to expect it so much that I'm constantly comparing myself to other people at my own detriment. Am I a better person? Am I training better? Am I learning? Am I moving? Am I checking my ego at the door and having the focus of learning and improving versus just simply focusing on the outcomes and comparing people who are on completely different journeys and had completely different starting points
Greg Voisen
and well and and rightfully so. And I think what we're seeing is it's about the experience we have every day, and you've been able to take these obstacles and turn them into opportunities. And I think that's a key. And to kind of wrap up the the interview, if you know, I'm going to hold up the book here for all my listeners, blind ambition, Chad Foster. Chad foster.com, is where you want to go. You can get learn everything about him there. We're going to have a link to Amazon to the book so you can get the book there. What do you hope readers are going to kind of take away from your book, your story, and how can they apply the lessons from your story in your own life? If you were to give like, three practical things of advice here, Chad that the listeners would take away, what would you want them to know, and how can they apply it into their life?
Chad Foster
Three things. Number one, recognize that you have a choice in how you show up. You don't get to control all your cards in life, but you alone get to control how you play your cards. Point number two, you will become the stories that you tell yourself, so make sure you choose your stories wisely. It's the foundation for resilience. Make sure you're telling yourself the right stories, because you become your stories. Point three, if you want to grow, you have to get comfortable with discomfort. So edge outside of your comfort zone and watch those comfort zones expand. Watch growth take place, watch innovation occur and watch you accomplish more than you ever thought you could.
Greg Voisen
Chad, those are great takeaways from our interview and from your book. I want to thank you for being on inside personal growth and spending a few minutes with our listeners. I know that they're going to take away a lot from this Blessings to you on your travels and all the speeches you have coming up, and I only wish you the best in life as we move forward. Let's stay connected, buddy. Namaste and thanks for being on the show.
Chad Foster
My pleasure. Thanks for having me, Greg,
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Inside Personal Growth with Greg Voisen · Podcast 1158: Modern Achievement: A New Approach to Timeless Lessons for Aspiring LeadersIn the rapidly evolving world of leadership and entrepreneurship, the book Modern Achievement offers timeless lessons designed for aspiring leaders across generations. Co-authored by Asheesh Advani and Marshall Goldsmith, this 400-page book brings a fresh perspective to personal and career success, with actionable lessons that address today’s dynamic landscape.
Fixed, Flexible, and Freestyle: The Key to Success At the heart of Modern Achievement is the framework of “fixed, flexible, and freestyle” principles. Fixed lessons remain constant through time, regardless of external changes. Flexible lessons adapt to circumstances such as time and place, while freestyle lessons are unique to each individual, tailored to personal strengths and preferences.
In a world where technological advancements and global shifts create ever-changing conditions, this framework helps leaders cultivate adaptability. It empowers individuals to navigate diverse challenges, achieve their goals, and contribute meaningfully to their teams and organizations.
A Book for Young and Seasoned Leaders Alike Although the book is aimed at young and aspiring leaders, it has received praise from experienced professionals. One of the key takeaways is the importance of balancing long-term goals with flexible strategies that allow for growth in uncertain environments. Whether you are starting your career or navigating through a leadership role, Modern Achievement offers insights for everyone.
Generational Insights and Global Leadership Asheesh Advani, CEO of Junior Achievement Worldwide, and Marshall Goldsmith, a renowned leadership coach, have masterfully woven lessons from multiple generations into the book. By sharing stories and perspectives from leaders around the world, the book highlights how the nuances of global communication and cultural differences are more important than ever in today’s decentralized workforce.
In a world increasingly dependent on remote teams, Modern Achievement stresses the importance of cultural understanding, adaptability, and constant learning to stay ahead.
For more details and insights about the book, visit the official website at ModernAchievement.com.
You may also refer to the transcripts below for the full transciption (not edited) of the interview.
Interview Transcipt -Not EditedEmailDownloadNew TabWelcome back to Inside personal growth. This is Greg voisen, the host of inside personal growth. And Asheesh Advani us from actually Boston, and he is the head of Junior Achievement worldwide. And I literally met him through Marshall Goldsmith, because I saw Marshall had made a post on LinkedIn about a new book called Modern achievement. And Ashish, do you have a copy there you can hold up for the listeners.
Asheesh Advani
I do. It's right here.
Greg Voisen
There you go. This book. Everybody, hold it up again. I want to make sure that we're going to put a link to Amazon. We're also going to put a link to modern achievement.com seriously, go there. Check that website out. It's a not just a pretty website, but very informative website. He and Marshall wrote this book together, and it's illustrated by a woman by the name of
Asheesh Advani
Aisha burcel. Okay,
Greg Voisen
if you want to see some fantastic illustrations, folks, definitely. Now, I only have the PDF version right now, but the reality is, when you get this book in your hands, you're going to covet this book just because it's wonderfully done. It really, it really is Ashish. So let me let our listeners know a little about you. They do know plenty about Marshall, but he is the CEO of Junior Achievement worldwide, one of the largest NGOs in the world, dedicated to preparing youth for employment and entrepreneurship. During his leadership tenge tenure at ja a worldwide, he's been selected annually as one of the top 10 social good organizations in the world. Has been nominated for the Nobel Nobel Peace Prize. She's is also an accomplished entrepreneur, having led two venture backed businesses from startup to acquisition, he is an in demand speaker and regular contributor at major conferences, having served as a panelist or moderator at the World Economic Forum and the United Nations and The YPO young president's organization and fortune 500 corporate gatherings. For all of you, you probably don't need Marshalls. For the people that listen to my show, they they don't need Marshalls bio, because they know Marshall so well. So Ashish, you know, I think my intention for this is to really let the listeners know, not only just about the book, but really what you and Marshall are teaching people now that's different from a leadership standpoint and and a way to be because, look, this is influencing all the young entrepreneurs and young people that are coming through. Ja as well. You can't write a book and not have this be part of the curriculum, right? So modern achievement, kind of interviews introduces this fixed, flexible, freestyle framework for personal and career success. And I think that's so important in our evolving world with speed of technology the way things are going. You know, you had two startups. Can you explain how this framework is different from traditional approaches to achievement?
Asheesh Advani
Sure, and it's just really great to be here. And you know, Marshall has been such an amazing collaborator. I've learned so much from him. And so I'll try to channel my best Marshall. I'm not wearing a green shirt. So no,
Greg Voisen
you need to channel your best Ashish because we want a sheesh viewpoint here, because you know you're as important. I've co authored many books. The co authoring can be a challenging experience, so I love you for that. Well,
Asheesh Advani
we did it well, we both wrote it as separate eyes, as opposed to a we. Because, you know, Marshall grew up in Kentucky. I was born in India, grew up in Canada, moved to the US. We have totally different life stories. So rather than try to force everything to a we, we decided to write it with two eyes. And that, I think, really made it easier to collaborate. And then we found lots of areas of commonality, including this framework. So to answer your question, fixed, flexible, freestyle is a very simple way, really simple way, to understand how to actually adapt rules and lessons and advice in a world that's changing so quickly. So fixed lessons don't change despite the passage of time, flexible lessons change based on time, place and other variables and freestyle are lessons and rules that are really about you, unique to you based on your personal strengths. And that's a really simple framing. We use it, ja for all sorts of things that has been very empowering and helped us be a dynamic organization, and particularly for young people. If you're about to graduate from, let's say, high school or university, you're on average, going to have many jobs and many careers. People say that on average, at least 20 jobs and as many as seven different careers over the course of your life. So the idea of achievement being something which is about long term goal setting, you know the classic achievement book. So you pick a goal, you write it down, you visualize it, and the universe helps it happen. But if there's this much change in the world, we have to have a different framework to think about how to be adaptable. So that's really the purpose of this framing of the book, and why, I think the framework allows us to include many life lessons which have been helpful for Marshall and for me.
Greg Voisen
I love your Indian approach, because I'm a devotee of self realization fellowship, and I think when you attach yourself to a goal, meaning you think it's going to turn out a certain way, right? So I'm getting a little philosophical here and a little spiritual at the same time. And I don't know if you have any of that philosophy from India, which obviously came forward, but the reality is, it's like as you evolve in life, and you see things happen, you have may set a goal, maybe you reach it, but it doesn't exactly happen the way you think it was going to happen, right? You have to be flexible. I remember interviewing a woman not that long ago, and the book was called Flux, and how to actually stay in flux, and she has actually become a phenom, and eight different languages the book is it's really done really well. And I think it's important for people to be able to pivot right? You gotta be able you being a entrepreneur. You know this. Steve Jobs used to teach the world that's how you get things done. Bill Gates, everybody who's been there, and your intuition, it's important to listen to the connection between the heart and the gut. Now you and Marshall draw from a wealth of experiences in leadership and mentorship. Look at you. You're leading an organization where that's what you're doing all the time, setting an example for younger people, and these are probably Gen Z ers, right? So I was going to ask a question around the what you might see as the generational differences in our society today, but what inspired you both to collaborate this book and how did your different perspectives from somebody who's 70 something to you who's 50, and then if you take somebody down in their 30s and 40s, right? I believe we all work together to make things happen. That's just a personal belief. But how did you these perspectives help you shape the content in the book?
Asheesh Advani
Well, we decided to include the perspectives of a lot of young people. In fact, most of the freestyle section of the book fixed, flexible freestyle. The third section of the book includes the voices of young leaders, Young Achievers, as we call them, who share their own lessons. In fact, some of those lessons are really, you know, they were educational to both Marshall and me. The first part of the book, the fixed part of the book, has the classic lessons, the stuff that really doesn't change, leadership thinkers and the middle part flexible. We included the lessons from people in the coaching profession and leadership profession, some of the world's top leadership coaches, they were kind enough to share their stories. So we tried to do is bring together perspectives of different ages, while the whole book is written for a younger audience, what I found, and this is probably one of the biggest ahas for me, is people who are established leaders, people who are bit later stage in their career, have found much more value from the book because it's not written didactically to them. It's not like, hey, you need to do this. It's more like, Here's what a young aspiring leader should do, which allows somebody who's an established leader to sort of pick and choose the things that resonate with them without feeling like they're being told to do something. So that was an aha moment. At least, I've gotten lots of feedback from people of different ages saying I got so much value out of this part of the book.
Greg Voisen
Well, and rightfully so. I mean, look, we are in an era where things, depending on our perspective, are moving at a much more rapid pace, advent of AI, people using this, people writing books with it, people doing a lot of things, right? It's a wonderful world. I do have nothing negative to say, even somebody who sits here at 70 years old, having said, Oh, well, you know about this or that, and looking at my perspective, but I think this book takes that from an adaptability standpoint in today's rapidly changing world. So how can young leaders who are going to pick up this book balance the need for these fixed principles with the flexibility required to thrive in this incredibly dynamic environment. As a matter of fact, I'd go to say more than dynamic. I would say it's it's actually quite explosive, right? Maybe a wrong term, but I think my listeners will get it, because they understand me, it is pretty explosive. And the opportunities that exist, I know if you can get through uncertainty, you can always find the opportunity, always find the opportunity. Because most people are sitting here going, well, it's such uncertain times. We don't know what's going on. We're really challenged by this. And mentally, this is a struggle. And I say, get through the struggle, because the opportunity on the other side is greater. How do you help the young people who pick this book up see the world that way? Well, let me give you an
Asheesh Advani
example of fixed lesson and an example of a flexible lesson that should answer your question more concrete. So an example of a fixed lesson is to go meta. What go meta means is, and this is, by the way, become part of the way education theory moves into practice. When we went to school, we weren't asked to reflect on what we learned and take five or 10 minutes of every lecture to write down what we learned. That was just not part of school. We just were supposed to, maybe, like, at the end of the year, reflect on what we'd learned. But now what they do in a lot of schools is they actually, as part of the lesson, take a moment to do what's called meta learning, where you actually have to reflect on the learning objectives and what has happened over the last hour of the lesson. That is such an important fixed lesson. It's a way that actually, you can reflect on what you want with this much change in the world. If you don't, if you don't take the moment to just reflect, you move from opportunity to opportunity, and you haven't really improved. So part of this investment in personal development is to take that moment to go meta. That's a fixed us, a flexible lesson. And a lot of young people, I think, forget this, which is why we put it in the book, is to make other people's goals your own. I think we're taught at a young age to be looking for your life purpose and to really be passionate about something and make your career choices based on that passion. But in reality, for most of your early career, your goals are going to be given to you by your university, by your parents, by your first employer, by your boss, and if you don't align your goals to other people's goals, you're going to hit a lot of frustration. So one thing we advise in the book is to and this is a flexible lesson, because it depends on where you are in your career. If you're older, maybe that's not the right or if you have a lot of direction, a lot of purpose already, maybe this is not good advice for you, but making other people's goals your own allows you to align and really advance much quicker in your career trajectory
Greg Voisen
so important that you're taking on an inclusionary part where you're taking on other people's goals, especially as a leader, to see it that way, right? Because we work in teams, in most of these companies, we have team goals. We have individual goals that we are supposed to be reaching for the team. And you know, this brings me to this question, and I, and I love this whole element about the way you've approached this book, but the key concept is finding happiness in the journey, rather than this focusing on the end goal. And you know, most Gen Z ers are going to tell you, Hey, I'm not going to live it the way my parents lived it, because I was a boomer, right? And there's no way I'm living my life that way. I'm just not going from gold to gold to gold to gold. And I'm not going to just go try and find material things, although there is some material out in can you share the practical steps for cultivating? You know, Carol Dweck talks about the growth mindset, or the fixed mindset, right? Well, mindset is a big issue here for cultivating this mindset, which I'm going to just call it, the happiness mindset, the meaningful mindset. What do you guys say about that? Well,
Asheesh Advani
let me give you a couple of examples. I mean, if you're going to have 20 jobs within seven careers, it means that you're going to get some involuntary transitions, which basically means you're going to get fired a few times in your career. Times in your career to have the resilience to get through those very challenging times when you're going to have people who organizations who actually, quote, don't want you, is actually very, very difficult in our generation. It just it was much harder to deal with that change. In fact, the evolution of people having a job for life to having a few jobs to now having many jobs and many careers, has required this mindset shift, this resilient mind shift, asset shift, the concept which which you need to have to get through this is called self efficacy.
Asheesh Advani
so one of the core elements of self efficacy is being able to reframe. So we have a whole chapter in the book that's all about reframing and knowing the power of the word yet. So you can move from being sort of confronted with challenges and saying, I'm not good at math, to I'm not good at math. Yet that reframing changes things in your mind, to be able to be much more focused on being able to get through the challenges that are in front of you. For example, I talk about a personal challenge that I had with stuttering as a kid. So I had a pretty significant speech impediment. You don't hear it now, but when, when I was younger, I really couldn't get a sentence out of my mouth for most of my school age years, and I went through speech therapy. And as I look back upon that, I could think of all the things that I wasn't able to do, right, all the clubs I couldn't join, all the leadership roles I couldn't have, all the girls I didn't date, or whatever it might be, or I could say, Geez, speech therapy taught me to be a really good public speaker, because I had to practice every week doing extemporaneous speaking fluently. So I choose looking back in my own reframing as looking at the positive of the resilience that I built, the obstacle I overcame, as opposed to all the negatives, which will make me actually be less confident for what I can do in the future. And that's a mindset skill that I think will be more important, particularly when young people are going to have this many jobs and this many career transitions, you
Greg Voisen
make a really important point. And I think that somebody who potentially, you know, in your case, who had a stutter, who overcame stuttering, there had to be a huge fear there. And one of the things is you've gotta love yourself and and it's so important today, we can't serve anybody else unless we love ourselves. We've gotta take care of ourselves too. So in your case, you know, look, you went to a speech therapist. You overcame this obstacle. You became a fantastic speaker, speaker. And I think that hard work intelligence obviously has paid off for you in spades. So this goes to your own unique career journey. You know, you've gone from entrepreneur to leading the world's largest NGO, right? Or one of the largest NGOs. How is your personal definition? We call it Junior Achievement. Of achievement evolved over time, and how does that reflect in this book? Because, you know, I read your bio, I get it, but I didn't take your journey. But what I understand is that you've now dedicated yourself to a non profit, right, where you're actually helping young people because you made it in the world already, right? So you could devote time to this and be there for them. How has it kind of changed your definition over time of how you look at being what I want to call an entrepreneur, if somebody is going to help people help and serve, because you're obviously helping and serving in a big way. Let
Asheesh Advani
me start by saying that we have a lot of volunteers who help at ja. So we're one of the world's largest volunteer based organizations as well. So while we have paid staff work on the ground in over 118 countries. Now, believe it or not, paid you know, staff on the ground, we have 10 times as many volunteers who get involved with our organization. So I appreciate your question about my own journey and how I got from being an entrepreneur to here. But I want to just start by saying that many of your listeners are probably already involved in junior achievement on boards and involved as volunteers, and, you know, telling their business stories to young people. What motivated me to make this change is because I'd gone through two very sort of deep entrepreneurship experiences, right? I started a company, built it, raised money and sold it, and the second time around, I was hired by the venture capitalist to run a company, built it and sold it. And they both were, I wouldn't say they were incredible successes, but they both had elements of success and elements of failure in them, in terms of those journeys, and as I look back on what I wanted to do next with my life, I actually did this go meta thing, I stepped back and said, Okay, what am I actually good at? I'm not great at building companies. I really am not. I'm better at being persuasive and and convincing people to be supporters, either financial supporters or joining teams. So how can I use the fundraising skills and the team building skills to, frankly, do more for the world? And ja, at the time, was looking for tech forward CEO with a global perspective, and I went through ja when I was a kid. So for me, the chance to be able to give back in this way was just such a perfect alignment of what I want to do next with my life. This book, in fact, all the proceeds are being donated by Marshall and I to ja, because, you know, obviously we're doing this not to make money. We're doing this to just get the message out there, and to be able to do that at some phase of your life, no matter where you are, whether you're young or old or rich or not rich, or whatever you define, it is so fulfilling to be able to be very, very focused on the next generation. And I think many people get involved with ja just because they see themselves and the lessons they've learned they really want to share with others. And we've created mechanisms to help volunteers do that. So that's, I think, why we attract so many sort of board members, corporate volunteers and entrepreneur volunteers all over the world?
Greg Voisen
Yeah, I know here in San Diego, we have a big kind of ja movement, and many of my friends are in it. I've never been in it, but now that you've spoken with me, I'm going to actually go to one of my best friends, Mark, who's been in it for years, and talk to him about jumping in all right, there you go. Did another you've recruited another person. I've always had many of my own startups, successes, failures, whatever, so I think I would be a good addition to it. So look, you drew you and Marshall drew from this diverse range of leaders and achievers to build this book. What was the most surprising or insightful lesson that you learned from some of these individuals while writing the book? Because you had so many contributors at the end of the book, there's this big, long list that I'm actually looking at right now, and I'm saying, Okay, you guys had to have a couple that stood out. Is there one in there in particular that you would tell our listeners that would kind of exemplify what it was you were looking for in the book?
Asheesh Advani
Well, first, let me say it's like asking a parent who their favorite child is. So this is not about favorite, I know, and we, I will say we were going to do like a proper index in the back, and we decided, rather than do an index, why don't we just list the people who've really contributed substantially, not everyone we've mentioned. So they're people we didn't mention as well. But I will say that, if I had to pick one right now that would resonate with this audience, I would say there's this young man I met. He lives, actually now in Dubai. He moved from the US to Dubai. His name's Amman, and he told me something early in his career, which he used early in his career, which has been so successful for him, even though he's still a young guy, he said he consciously chose to make friends who are five to 10 years older than him as a networking tool. He didn't do it with intentionality, where he's like, Oh, I'm doing it just because I'm gonna get a job one day from he did it because, you know, he was making friends. He got introduced and he he liked hanging out with them. And it ended up being the way that he was able to manage all these transitions in his life. He built a professional network five to 10 years older, and I think so many young people, particularly having young people in college, they are so focused on spending time with their peer group, they don't think of the importance of having these not like, you know, next generation mentors, but people who are just a bit older to guide them in their choices. And I think if you're going to have this much change in your life, 20 jobs, 70 careers, you're going to have to be very, very good at building a network of people who are going to refer opportunities to you so and then, so I wrote this lesson, and then I, of course, shared drafts of the book with many people, and what came back was you need to adapt this lesson issues, because it's such an important lesson. You should also make friends five to 10 years younger than you this. This gets the point where the people who read the book were also people who are kind of at our stage of their careers, and they were so passionate about this. And I said, I have to rewrite this and write it with that angle as well, because it's such an important part of, I think, how we navigate the future.
Greg Voisen
It is it and you that was a great story, because I reflect, as you were talking on chip Connolly, and Chip Connolly speaks about midlife now, but the reality is, he speaks about elders. You know, in the in the in the American Indians, we had elders that people respected now, five or 10 years older, fine, 1520, years older. I don't care if they're older or they're younger. The point is, you are learning from the stories they have, from the context they have, and it expedites your career. In other words, this is going to basically move you forward quicker. And I love it, because that young man actually must have read read him a grass book on putting the dots together, because you have to look for the future. Right? Kind of look forward. And if you can look forward and put the dots together, you're there. So look you. Today's world is global. It's decentralized world. How do you think leaders can maintain a strong sense of purpose and direction. Well, main managing their teams. I just had Dave and Allen on here the book is team right? That are increasingly remote and diverse, and your business especially, I presume it was in the it was in the software industry. I'm making an assumption, but probably so, you know, we're working with teams all over the world. My son is an executive at Adobe. He works with teams all over the world. What do you what would you tell people today working in these remotes, remote and diverse environments?
Asheesh Advani
So I think the world has really changed, and people are so comfortable now with being in teams where they don't even meet in person so many of my colleagues, especially in our organization, it's so global, we couldn't afford, as a nonprofit, to fly people around. So we have to become good at building a team culture, remotely, completely remote. And certainly I had to do that in my previous jobs. But the world was different then. I think the expectations were also different then. Now, I think there's such a feeling of we're going to invest the time in getting to know people on Zoom calls, because we know we're never going to meet in person. So I'll just tell you how we do it, because I think it's essential to building culture. One is to be pretty clear about your team norms, right? We used to do this all the time. In every organization I've ever been part of, we've had a get together where we sit and talk about our norms, how we are actually going to behave with each other, specifically around teamwork. That's one very easy thing to start with. I think another is to really use social media differently. I think some people use social media to either build their personal brand or to communicate with the external world. But in an organization like ours, you know, I need to use social media to communicate with my colleagues, with people who actually are on my team, because I know they're checking the same social that the external audience is checking. So I use social media to actually communicate key messages I'd like the JA network to know, or even the team just to J were wide headquarters, because I want to be able to not have to just send another email. I'd rather tell a story on social media that would be so much more memorable than sending another email. So that's another lesson I would share, I think, another really powerful lesson I'm sure many of your other guests have shared. This is to really focus on appreciation. There's something so powerful about appreciating other people and being highly specific, and then particularly those who like the public recognition focusing on the public side of it too, because then that value, or that element of your culture gets really amplified when you appreciate one person's work very publicly. Some people don't like public appreciation, so you kind of have to ask first. We actually have this thing. We did this a few years ago. We asked everyone the team, do you like to be publicly appreciated, or do you really want private only? And some people just are really uncomfortable with public appreciation. But at least for my career, I found that just really focusing on gratitude and appreciation can be a essential part of your culture, even if you're not naturally suited to be that person who's always thanking people publicly. I think you have to learn that skill. It's just so important
Greg Voisen
and and I think appreciation and gratitude too. I'd add that in there for the fact that you know you have this opportunity like just you and I today, we've never met until this morning. We're on a zoom call. We're educating the world about a brand new book through a thing called Zoom that will now go on social media. And when you really look at all of this, you go, what just it's a wonderment. It's just, it's, it's wonderful that me 17 years doing this, 11 158 podcasts so far, whatever the number is, and I get this opportunity just sit here in my own little office and meet people like you. And I say every day, I'm just so blessed, and I'm grateful. I'm grateful to have met you through Marshall. So here's the thing, given your experience with Junior Achievement worldwide, the book modern achievement addresses the specific challenges faced by us younger generation. So how do you help them rejigger their goals, or look at their goals in a different way, such that through this book, the knowledge and wisdom which was imparted by all of these contributors, right, allows them kind of coalesced all this and go, Wow, I found a new way to look at my goal, or to achieve my goal, because this book is about achievement, right? You wouldn't have titled it modern achievement.
Asheesh Advani
So sure, that's a great question. So I presented, now this book and the concepts in it quite often, and sometimes after I present, a parent comes up to me and says, I really want my my daughter, my son, to embrace their passion, and I want them to develop a sense of purpose. And I fear, I think that's the right word. I fear that we're projecting on young people this need for an organizing principle for our goals. My personal view is we better let young people be young and discover it in their own way, on their own time when we project our need to have this unifying purpose too soon. I think it's actually potentially very problematic for young people. Puts too much pressure on you know, we used to live in a world where the college you got into, or the first job you got was defining in terms of your life trajectory. That is so much less true. Now, might not be completely untrue, but it's much less true. So now it's about the skills you have, the aptitude you have, the mindset you have, because you're going to have this many transitions. So I really think that we, particularly in our generation, we look back on the next generation, we shouldn't be trying to force purpose too soon. There's a wonderful chart you talked about. Aisha bear sells illustrations. She's got this beautiful illustration in the book. I think it's if I recall in the last third of the book, and it shows how you move from ready made purpose to self made purpose. Just a nice little chart showing how that happens. And I think it's so powerful because it happens for different people at different people at different times. If you're like a tunberg, you know, the young woman in Sweden who's so focused on climate change, developed it really early in her life, and that's wonderful, but that is rare. So for me, it happened much later, for the early part of my life. I had so much ready made purpose from other organizations, institutions, parents, educational, sort of communities and other places. So I would say that's probably the most important guidance I would give people listening to this. Particularly, I think most of your listeners are probably not in high school or college, or probably parents or people who are at a different stage of their career. That's what I would want them to take away.
Greg Voisen
You know, you, as you're speaking about this, I was listening to a Tim Ferriss podcast, and he was interviewing Chris, I think it's Chris Sagar, the guy that's made a billion dollars building businesses and selling them and so on. And, you know, he said, I have a list of criteria people, did they work hard when they were young? Did they get their hands dirty? Did they wash dishes? Did they, you know, did they learn another language? Did they and all this whole list had nothing to do with how much education you had from a great university. It had to do with your experiences. And as I was listening to that, I was thinking I was counting off as he was checking the list. How many of those did I personally actually have as as part of my life experience, I say life experience. And I checked almost every box as he was speaking through his list. And I think for a young person today, it's so much more important to have the experience, to show up and be there and just do basically what you need to do, and learn from that, then put that in your arsenal and have an opportunity. Now I hope that's not going against what you believe, but the reality is, I thought it was just a wonderful approach. And it's like, Hey, if you go to UCLA, USC, if you end up going to Harvard, whatever, fantastic. But if you don't, that isn't the hiring criteria. Now, for most organizations, they're looking for, what is your experience, you know? How do you address people? Can you meet people? Can you speak to people you know, whatever? And I relate this because there's a very exclusive hotel chain. And I interviewed the gentleman who was like the head of HR at one point for that, and he said, we're having trouble finding young people who can relate to individuals in the hotel like as Busboys and Bellman and and all of these kind of things, right? He said it's just a real challenge because they they don't, they can't even interact, right? So the book's approach integrates lessons for most established and emerged leaders. How do you think this this? How do you think that this blend of perspectives helps the readers, whether young or older, navigate their personal and or professional lives? Because you've got a lot in this book. I don't know how many pages it was, but when I was going through the PDF. It's how many? 400
Asheesh Advani
Yeah, it's about 400 Yeah. So personal and professional lives, we organize a book into self and career, just to organize it and make it easy. It's, you know, the book is 30 lessons. Each lesson is very digestible. One of the readers said, sheesh, one of the best things about your book is when I'm in the car, because he bought the audible version, it's, you know, each lesson takes, like, just about 10 to 15 minutes, and my kids can listen in the backseat while I drive them to school. Perfect, so but personal and professional. You know, I think this idea of being able to set multiple goals. We have this chapter in the book called start, stop, continue, where the lesson is about start, stop, continue. People make like annual New Year's resolutions, and inevitably, they fail for all sorts of reasons. But start, stop and continue is a framing that's much quicker and easier, that allows you to pick one thing you want to start doing, one thing you want to stop doing, and one thing you want to continue doing. And that is the kind of a way to be able to set iterative goals, because that's going to change like, frankly, it might change every month, every six months, every 12 months, whatever it might be. And so we have a bunch of, I guess, pieces of advice in the book like that, which move you away from long term goal setting and the traditional definitions of achievement to be to allow you, like I think you probably know Marshall's book, triggers right where he's found a way, just by asking the right questions, you can change the framing in your mind for Your role, the behavior change needed to accomplish goals. So I think one of the things we all know is how to set goals, but we sometimes don't know why we don't achieve them. And we put in this book this way of asking active questions. Actually, Marshall's daughter Kelly, who came up with this in her research, it's so powerful. I went through this program with Marshall, where every week I had to ask myself the questions which were getting in the way, which helped me understand was getting in the way of me of my accomplishing goals. So, for example, the goal was to become better at tennis, because it was the summer and rather day. Did
Greg Voisen
you know he used to send those to me on an Excel spreadsheet?
Asheesh Advani
Oh, he did. So you did those questions, all those questions.
Greg Voisen
He's been using those for years.
Asheesh Advani
He has great questions. They're really great. So I had to change the way I thought about playing tennis. I asked myself, have I done my best today to improve a tennis so the phrasing of the question was very much about my personal agency, not like it's raining outside, or the courts. You know, I can't use a court or whatever it might be. It had to be an active questioning, which made personal responsibility core to it, and it was so powerful for me. So the book includes little things like that, which I think will help young people, both personally and professionally,
Greg Voisen
it will, and I would presume, or I don't know if you and Marshall have decided to turn this into a course, but if you haven't, you should, because advice, Lawrence, I'm sure you are right here on track. We got all sorts of stuff going, so
Asheesh Advani
we'll see where's got the AI tool now that he's built. So you can ask Marshall anything. So it's, it's amazing what he's he's been able to do actually, really, really it
Greg Voisen
is. It's an inspiration. And so, you know, you and Marshall have both worked with leaders at really, the highest levels. Let's face it, most people in their career don't even get that opportunity. But you know Alan Mulally and all these kind of people that have that have graced his life with great learnings and him teaching them, what common traits do you see in successful leaders today, and how does modern achievement help cultivate these traits for the readers who pick the book up?
Asheesh Advani
Well, I think the leaders of yesterday, leaders of today, frankly, are somewhat different. So I really do believe like Alan was, like Alan is just an amazing leader. What he accomplished is like legendary right? But leading forward today, or leading forward in 20 years, will require, I think, a very different set of leadership skills. So particularly, I would say, because we're living in a world now that is not just more global, but the unpredictability of the global side of what we're doing has made it much harder to lead global enterprises. And I mean, I live this daily. Even in my 10 years or so in this organization, I've seen the rate of change of what's happening around the world. And my advice for a young leader, particularly one who wants to, you know, lead something globally, is to travel a lot and to learn the nuance of different communication styles, because even learning a new language, for example, 10 years ago, it made a lot of sense to learn a new language. Now there's real time AI translation. You can have a wearable and little you will speak, and it will translate to the other person in their language. But yeah,
Greg Voisen
the new Samsung phone does that. It's on both sides right. You can literally just say something, and then it appears both written and spoken on the other side of the phone.
Asheesh Advani
So I think that the important thing now is actually understanding the cultural differences, to actually really appreciate how the indirect communication style of somebody in China versus the direct communication style of somebody in the Netherlands, for example, are totally different. It's not about knowing that you need to communicate with them and be able to translate and know their language. It's about having the subtlety and the cues of how to convince somebody and persuade somebody to actually understand their goals, listen to them and adapt to what you want to say and what they want to say. That's so much harder, and that takes, I think, real effort. That's just an example of, I think, what needs to happen in the future. Well,
Greg Voisen
understanding the cultures and the cultural differences and the diversity requires you to interact with inside that culture, and that's why you say travel. And I think travel is one way for people to get such a broad education. And you know, you ja is worldwide, so obviously you you said you're traveling, you must go to all these various chapters and get
Asheesh Advani
to meet with us. I mean, we had a massive event just a few weeks ago where we had students from 70 countries come together and meet each other. You know, when you do business together, it changes the way you actually interact. So it's so energizing, obviously, for me to be there and see all these young people from around the world doing deals and getting to know each other and partnering, that's what makes me very happy and energized, frankly.
Greg Voisen
Well, I just want to acknowledge you that ja, whoever is in the board, shows a wonderful CEO. And so thank you, Ashish, for being in because you're a great example. So let's wrap our interview up with this last final question, what do you hope that readers are going to take away from modern achievement, like, look, this is a big book. This is 400 pages. Illustrations are fantastic. I'm going to say that again, by the way. So if you just buy it to see the pictures, actually look for the pictures. And how do you see the book kind of influencing the future of leadership and kind of your role at ja and also people's personal development, right? They're inside personal growth. That's the title of this, this podcast. I because I actually believe this book can can be a seminal work between you and Marshall. Well, first
Asheesh Advani
of all, thank you for saying all those nice things. I'll just say, I would leave your listeners with one, a reflection. This book has 30 lessons. It is not at all to be read cover to cover. It's really written to pop in and pop out, which, by the way, is how all young people read, like all books now, just so you know, pop in, pop out. So my my hope to answer your question for this book is that every single person finds at least five lessons from the book that they actually remember and internalize and actually start to act on. Because I do think those five lessons will change over the course of whenever you pop in and out of the book. For me, this idea of even making friends five to 10 years younger than me, it started to make me think about the importance of reverse mentoring and the importance of my being really thoughtful and intentional. And I learned that from a young person. It wasn't for me, it wasn't for Marshall. So everyone's going to find a different five I know that, and I also know that what we did were We were so careful to curate these lessons, to have pictures and stories, to make them memorable, which is why I think you talked about aisha's beautiful illustrations. So my hope and dream, and I hope you get this too Greg, is to find your five lessons, to remember those five and actually act on them, because I do think it'll make you happier and sort of more adaptable to the new world of achievement that we're all living through.
Greg Voisen
Well, you know, my university is this podcast, and every time I get on and I get to interview someone as bright and as intelligent and as articulate as you, I always take away new lessons. So thank you for the lessons that you've given me this morning, especially a lot about the young man that you told the story where he actually was meeting with a little bit older people, four or five years older than himself. That was a great story. And I think for all my listeners, please go out. Hold the book up again, if you would. I know you've got a great copy there. That's the book you're going to want to go get. It's called Modern achievement with Ashish Vianney and Mark Marshall Goldsmith, we'll put a link to that as well. The website is modern achievement.com. Please go there as well to learn more about both them. And we're going to put a link to Junior Achievement worldwide. So for all of you interested who are listening and would like to be a mentor for young people. Please go to there and sign up to do that. Find your local chapter. There's plenty of them around. They're all over the world, probably pretty easy to do. Thank you so much for being on. Namaste to you. Thanks for you actually gracing our presence here with your wisdom and this book. Thanks so much,
Asheesh Advani
and nice to meet you. Thank you, Greg,
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Inside Personal Growth with Greg Voisen · Podcast 1157: Finding Radical Wholeness with Ken WilberIn the podcast interview, Ken Wilber dives deep into the core themes of Finding Radical Wholeness. He emphasizes that our typical approaches to personal growth, while beneficial, often leave us incomplete. True transformation, according to Wilber, requires us to embrace the totality of our being and the world around us. He elaborates on the importance of the Five Pillars—Waking Up, Growing Up, Opening Up, Cleaning Up, and Showing Up—explaining how each leads us to a deeper understanding of ourselves.
For example, Waking Up is the process of spiritual awakening, which allows us to see beyond the illusions of the ego. Growing Up refers to emotional and psychological maturity, where we integrate and transcend our early stages of development. Wilber further explores the concept of Cleaning Up, which involves shadow work—the practice of confronting and healing the darker, hidden aspects of our psyche. Showing Up is about being fully present in our relationships and responsibilities, while Opening Up expands our capacities for love, compassion, and understanding.
Throughout the podcast, Wilber also touches on the practical applications of Integral Theory in our everyday lives, including how we can use frameworks like the Four Quadrants to view the world from multiple perspectives, thus enhancing our capacity for empathy and connection.
You may also refer to the transcripts below for the full transciption (not edited) of the interview.
Interview Transcipt -Not EditedEmailDownloadNew TabGreg Voisen
Well, welcome back to Inside Personal Growth. This is Greg Voisen, the host of Inside Personal Growth. And that young man on the other side of the screen, for all of you who don't know who he is, is Ken Wilber. And Ken has been on inside personal growth several times before, but the last one was all the way back in 2017 for a book called The Religion of Tomorrow. Which I really love that interview, because it is kind of really stirred me up and got me thinking about, where is all this going? Good day to you, Ken, how are you doing?
Ken Wilber
I'm fine. I sort of knocked the teeth out here. In case you notice a funny look to my smile. But other than that, I'm doing fine.
Greg Voisen
Well, you know what? I people hit their shins on bedpost, people knock their teeth out, people fall down, but I didn't even really notice it. So, there you go. Now everybody's gonna look at your mouth and go, right? Kid, well, we're not gonna do that, but I'm gonna let my listeners know a tad about you. Ken is a visionary thinker of an inspired genius. Is the developer of what's called the integral, or the Theory of Everything, embracing the truths of all the world's great traditions. He is the author of over 20 he just told me, it's more than 20 it's 35 books. And we're going to be speaking about his book calling “Finding Radical Wholeness”. A Brief History of everything. Is one of his other books, grace and grit, sex, ecology, spirituality. And they go on and on and on. And we'll put a link to his website, which is Ken wilber.com in 2000 he founded the integral Institute, a think tank for studying issues of science and society with outreach through local and online communities such as integral education network, integral training and integral spiritual center. And in 2007 Ken co founded integral life, a social media hub dedicated to sharing the integral vision with the worldwide community, as well as documenting and catalyzing the progress of the integral movement. His rise, his writings have been translated into over 20 languages, and he lives in Denver, So Ken, that was a brief introduction. I could have gone on a lot longer than that, but why waste time when we can dive right in through the book finding radical wholeness? And so look, you, you've certainly got a huge collection, and Shambhala has published most of your works as you exception for and I go back to the days it sounds true, putting the cassette CDs of your integral theory into my I remember the guy looked like this on the cover. I listened to those so much with the lines and the levels and making sure where I was so finding radical wholeness, she emphasized the importance of discovering genuine wholeness in our lives. Okay, can you start by defining what wholeness means in the context of your work? Because many our listeners are going to well, they're going to say, well, whole is in half,
Ken Wilber
right? Well, wholeness means inclusive or systemic or all inclusive. And the general idea is that, on the one hand, it's a series of practices that you can do to actually bring wholeness into your life. And on another hand, is sort of a philosophical framework that includes literally all philosophies. And it does this by when I discovered this framework, I was in my late teens, and I had already had a spontaneous, what's then called Satori, or an enlightenment or awakening experience.
Greg Voisen
Was that when you were a dishwasher kid? Yeah, I was a 19 year old kid, right?
Ken Wilber
And so when you have an awakening or an enlightenment experience, you're usually identified with this small ego or small self. It sort of exists behind your face and looks at the world out there and. You're identified with that, and you might have self esteem problems, or you might not, but you're essentially a small egoic self. And when you have an awakening experience, you drop that identity with that small self, and you realize you're literally one with everything. You don't look at the mountain. You are the mountain. You don't look the flock of birds flying overhead. You are the flock of birds. You don't stand on the earth. You are the Earth. You're literally one with everything that's arising in your environment. And so if you translate that into conceptual terms, it means that we all have numerous numbers of philosophical perspectives that we take in the world, and there are a dozen or two dozen major schools of philosophy in the west and around the world. And what I wanted to do was find how they all could be true but partial. And so I wanted to find a framework that would hold all of these different philosophical disciplines together. And so we'd have empiricism and hermeneutics and idealism and systems theory and so on. And I came up with, well, the way I got on to it was I started noticing that there was a branch of psychology called developmental psychology, and there were famous people like Lawrence Kohlberg and Robert Keegan and Jane lovenger And Abraham Maslow. And all of them had actual empirical studies of human beings. And they noticed that all human beings, without exception, goes through major stages of development, right? And each of each of those has a different worldview. So we can use gene gestures names for his major stages. They were archaic, magic, mythic, rational, pluralistic and systemic or integral or integrate. And we all go through as many of those stages as we can manage to grow through as we continue our growing up. And so some people get to rational stage. Some people will make it to pluralistic and a very few will make it to integral stages of waking up. And as I notice that of the several dozen developmental psychologists, they each were drawing on a different multiple intelligence that they were measuring its growth. So multiple intelligences, most people know we have a cognitive intelligence and we have a moral intelligence, but we also have emotional intelligence, spiritual intelligence, esthetic or beauty intelligence and so on. And most psychologists think they're somewhere between eight to 12 multiple intelligences that we have. And so what I started doing is on those big yellow pads, legal pads, I would tear one sheet off, and every time I found a developmental sequence, I would write it down on one yellow sheet of paper, and I had over 100 yellow sheets, and I put them all over my floor in my apartment, and the floor was just covered with yellow sheets of paper and apped
Greg Voisen
it that's mapped it out. You know, as you're as you're saying this, I recall many, many years ago. I don't know exactly how old you are now, but I'm 70 as of July 3. You know, I went to this David Hawking's workshops out in the desert. We were literally in Palm Desert or Palm Springs, and his levels of consciousness, right? Because you really in much of your work, speak about, hey, well, if the Dalai Lama is here and the average person's resonating at this, and it was power versus force, right, right? And, and I always appreciated what Hawking's brought out, right, but I appreciated your stuff more because it was more thorough. Okay, it was, it was, it did add more meaning to it in this work that you're now do. Doing you mentioned that wholeness is not something we naturally perceive, and it's true, because not everybody's had that Sumatra kind of experience like you write it at 19, but something we must actively seek, right? Okay, I get that on the other hand, what are some of the common misconceptions people have about wholeness, because I think some of us might be experiencing it, but maybe not to the degree that you experienced it. I know that I've never microdosed drugs to actually get there, although a lot of people would say, hey, well, let's go microdose some drugs, because then we can have this more out of body experience. What are your thoughts on that about how we actively seek having this connection and wholeness,
Ken Wilber
right? Well, it is a common misconception that wholeness is just lying around and we can see it, yeah, I mean, it's just we look out and we see the whole world, and that's a wholeness, and so we're fine, but that's not really true. So you can, for example, I use a typical example, is like a Zen student, say, 1000 years ago, and he's not yet had what Zen calls a Satori or an enlightenment or awakening experience, although that is the entire purpose of Zen. Buddhism is to have a Satori or a type of holiness with everything. But he could be sitting in the woods one day, and he still he thinks that the sun goes around the Earth, and he thinks that the earth is flat. And when he's sitting in the woods, he doesn't he sees all the trees, but he doesn't see the atoms and molecules or the cells in the tree, so he's not really seeing that side of wholeness and but, and if he has a waking up experience and realizes he's one with all the woods and he's one with the sun and he's one with the earth, and that's Fine, but he still and he will feel that actual oneness, and that's what we call a waking up experience. But he won't read. He'll still think that the sun goes around the Earth. He'll still think the earth is flat, and he still won't see the atoms, molecules or cells in the trees that he's one with So right there we can see that there's very important types of wholeness that are just not available to us unless we know specifically where to look.
Greg Voisen
Well, now look you. You have what you call five pathways to wholeness, right? You just talked about waking up. I think many people get a heightened sense of awareness. The question is, is, how deep do they take that? So you say waking up, growing up, opening up, cleaning up, showing up, right? These are these five. So can you explain how these pathways differ, and why each is essentially for achieving, quote, big wholeness, right? Because I would have never thought those were going to be the paths. But right when I, when I read this, it was like, Okay, this makes sense. Yeah,
Ken Wilber
um, well, you mentioned them, waking up, growing up, opening up, cleaning up and showing up. And the reason that they're all important is I mentioned that I was writing down the developmental sequence of these sheets of yellow paper, and I'd have this all these sheets spread all over the floor of my apartment, and each morning, I'd get up and I'd just walk and look at them. And I think now these have got to divide up in some ways. I mean, they're not all clearly dealing with the same thing, because some of the stages were like archaic to magic to mythic to rational to pluralistic to integral. But other stages were like foraging to horticultural to agrarian to industrial, the informational. Now those aren't at all the same as archaic to magic to mythic to rational to pluralistic, the integral. And so I started trying to figure out how they all sit together. And after several months of just staring at all of them and trying to figure out how they. Would work, how they would sit together? I noticed that at least half of them were dealing with subjective or interior stages of growth and development. So that was things like archaic stage to magic stage to mythic stage to rational stage to pluralistic stage, the integral stage. And those are all worldviews that we formed in our mind as we think about different types of world and when we were evolving as a species, we evolved through those stages. We started from archaic when we were still basically chimpanzees or gorilla like or ape like. And then we went to magic. And magic is like voodoo. If you make a doll that looks like somebody and you want to hurt that person, you just start sticking knives in the doll, and because you're just learning to differentiate inside from outside, we think that this to change the signifier or the word or the doll that represents this thing, that it'll magically actually change the thing itself. So we think if we start stabbing that doll, it's going to actually hurt the real person, magically. And that's what magic is. And a lot of developmental psychologists actually call that stage the magic stage of development. It's very prevalent in two year olds, for example, and they'll think that if they hide under a pillow, and they can't see anybody. Nobody can see them either, because they magically have disappeared. And then when we move up to the mythic stage, which is, for example, the whole Old Testament is a mythic statement, and myths are famous for ancient Greece. We have Apollo, Aphrodite, Zeus Mars and so on. And they all live on Mount Olympus. Well, those are all myths and but the thing is, those supernatural beings, we human beings can no longer produce magic, but these supernatural beings can produce magic. And so in the Old Testament, there's all sorts of supernatural miracles and miraculous events, and all these supernatural beings are engaging in this type of magic. And if we want them to do something for us, then we have to pray to them or commit a sacrifice. And by the way, when we first started doing sacrifices, this is about 50,000 years BCE, it was frequently actual human sacrifice, like everybody's aware of asked sacrifice, where they have these big pyramids, and they'd walk up the pyramids with a sacrificial victim stretching out on a table and cut his heart out, and they'd eat his heart, and then they'd roll him down the stairs, and the townspeople would take his body home and cook it and eat it, and that was all to get stain. Brutal. Yeah,
Greg Voisen
pretty brutal. So, you know, you know, you you use for my listeners, much in the way of vernacular to describe whether it's mythological or it's an allegory or a story told in the Bible or something, because we're all coming from different perspectives. But I think in this finding radical wholeness, you're finding a common ground, and one of the things that you talk about is being spiritual but not religious. So I want to, I want to touch on this. Because the waking up, growing up, opening up, cleaning up and showing up, they all relate here. Because how does this approach of of being spiritual but not religious help individuals connect with wholeness without the constraints of traditional religious beliefs. Now it did use the word beliefs, but you got to realize true Ken, for many people listening, it also could be a big T, a truth, not a belief, right? We know how challenging it is for people to let go of of a truth that they're very, very vigorous about letting the world know that this is my truth. But if they are more re spiritual than religious, they're going to be open to radical. Wholeness, right? Yeah. Okay, yeah. So address that, if you would, because it's really sure
Ken Wilber
the difference between spiritual and religious. I was just sort of introducing those five types of wholeness, the five different aspects of a radical wholeness. And we were talking about waking up as a type of you feel one with everything, one with the universe. And then growing up is we actually grow through different stages of thinking capacity, or cognitive intelligence, and that means we have different world views as we continue to grow up. And as I said, Gene goepzer, who's a developmental genius called these worldviews, the archaic stage, the magic stage, the mythic stage, the rational stage, the pluralistic stage and the integral stage, the archaic stage is when we're just some half a million years ago, where we're just coming out of our gorilla Ness, our chimpanze, and we are just learning to talk and let alone learning to think, and that's the archaic stage. And then we move into the magic stage, which is we start to learn to differentiate ourself from the environment. But because we are not the mind is not fully differentiated from what it thinks about, then it often confuses the word for the thing that the word represents. And so that gives us a magical we think if we change the word, we'll magically change the real thing. And that's the essence of magic. As I say. It's very common in two to three year olds. And then at around age five or six or seven, we move from magic to mythic, and mythic we populate the world with a whole series of supernatural beings, gods, goddesses, nature spirits. And so I mentioned the Greek pantheon of Zeus, Apollo, Mars, Aphrodite Venus and so on. And they all live on Mount Olympus. Well, all of those are myths. Now it's true that when somebody goes through that stage, these supernatural beings are damn important to them, and because they seem very real, and they believe in them with their full force of being, right? And that is the source of almost all of the world's great religious mythologies. And I call them religious mythologies because they are mythologies. Now that's not to say that there isn't a real God or brahman or Tao or godhead, because there is, and that's a direct spiritual experience when I feel one with everything on one with God, one with Jesus Christ, one with Buddha nature. And that's a real spiritual experience. But if I just, if I just think about it in mythic terms, that's a religion.
Greg Voisen
Well, do you can that I, I, I told you at the onset of this that I used to listen to yours cassettes cosmic consciousness. It's now, obviously on Amazon. It would that be a foundation for our listeners? Potentially, I don't I think there were 10 CDs in there, but now you can download the audio from Amazon. Yeah, I would. I would highly recommend, if people want to get into your work, it's a great entry point as well, because it is available. Obviously, nobody has CD players anymore, but so go download the audio files, right? So the point is, is that you know, you one of the central themes in the book is wholeness. And you say it's not tied to any mythic or super unnatural belief. So repeat that it's not tied to any supernatural belief. So how does this perspective kind of align with broader spiritual movements of today? Spiritual movements? I mean, look, right, we've got lots of them out there. People aren't groving. They aren't running to go to sign up and be a Christian or whatever, but they are seeking a way to understand their own spirituality,
Ken Wilber
right, and all of the world's major. Religious movements, there are seven or eight of them are Christianity, Judaism,
Greg Voisen
Jews, Judaism, all of those, yes, Taoism,
Ken Wilber
Buddha, Hinduism, all of them, including Christian mysticism, have a small but core spiritual experience. And so Christian mystics, for example, tend to be called Neoplatonic mystics because they follow a Neoplatonic view. And Plato, of course, invented the view, and according to him, all normal people are sitting in a cave, and the real sun is outside of the cave, but as the sun shines in the cave, it casts shadows of things in the cave against the cave wall, and all Human beings are shackled so that we're facing the cave wall, and so we're just seeing shadows of a real reality. And the real reality is the actual Sun itself that's outside of the cave, shining in sight in the cave and casting in shadows. So all Christian mystics follow that general metaphor, because God is the light outside the cave. And if they escape from the cave and break out, they can actually see the real light. They have a direct experience of a real God, and that is a real sun. It's the real God. It's a real God head and Christian mystics, but Well, St Paul, who a lot of the early Christians were having mystical experiences, especially the 12 disciples, who were in Christ's presence, because this very powerful gurus, or spiritual masters, or teachers generally throw out a lot of this energy of oneness.
Greg Voisen
Well, how would you how would you reference? You know, many of my listeners are going to understand duality, non duality. You're now speaking about the sun coming in through the cave, and the separation between self and this spiritual God or experience, or whatever it might be. And you know, so radical wholeness really is this non duality. Would be true? Yes,
Ken Wilber
um, although we find that non duality itself breaks up into four or five different aspects of it, and as I continue to discuss them, you'll you're your listeners will stand tend to get a sense about what all these five different areas are that together add up to a radical wholeness. And so we talked about waking up, and I'm just introducing growing up. Waking up is just this direct, immediate first person experience. First Person is described as the perspective of the person who's speaking. So that's a pronoun, like I, me, mine. I'm taking a first person perspective now as I'm speaking, second person perspective is the perspective of the person being spoken to. So as you're listening to me, you're a second person, and then the third person is the person or thing being spoken about. So right now, that would be integral theory. That's what we're talking about. And so it's pronouns, like he, she, they, them, it or it's and
Greg Voisen
but that gives us context, yeah, in other words, if, if we're looking at waking up, growing up, opening up, cleaning up, showing up, right? It's kind of contextual in the way in which you're describing it, because we're using the English language, right to frame the framework, because it's the only thing we've got right now, there might be something coming that's different, so, but, but I think that you know, in that previous question about this being spiritual, but not Religious, I think it's a key thing, and the central theme of the wholeness is not pied, as you said, the any mystic or supernatural belief, but really to align with this broader spiritual movements of today. So let me go back to that question. What in your estimation? It is the broader, more spiritual movement of today. If radical wholeness is the pardon me for saying this, listeners, but is the Bible, okay? Then the sense that, hey, if I picked up radical wholeness, I could change my whole perspective about my life in relation to some supernatural being, whatever it might be. Would you say that would be a true statement?
Ken Wilber
Well, basically, when you ask, Where are the spiritual approaches today, as I mentioned, almost all the major religions have two aspects. They're sometimes called an exoteric or an outer approach, and that outer approach is always religion. It's always some form of mythic, literal belief. And developmentalists actually call that mythic stage from archaic to magic to mythic to rational to pluralistic to integral. They call that mythic stage the mythic literal stage, because the myths are all taken to be real. Zeus is really real, Aphrodite is really real. Is a mythic, literal reality. But it's still just a myth. It's still up there with Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy and leprechauns and, you know, whatever agreed. But you can find in almost if you find almost any of the world's great religions, Hinduism, Taoism, Buddhism, Christian mysticism, Jewish mysticism, particularly known as Kabbalah or Sufism, Islamic mysticism. You can find that core of any major religion that is mystical. And mystical means a direct, immediate, first person experience of a unity. And so you can some Pentecostal movements put a great deal of stress on being reborn, which is a direct experiential, experience of being one with Christ or one with God. So St Paul said, Let this consciousness be in you, which was in Christ, Jesus, that we all may be one. Now that's a very mystical statement. Let Christ Consciousness replace your self consciousness. So you're one with Christ, and therefore one with everybody, that we all may be one that's a spiritual, mystical experience. It's real, it's direct, and it's obvious. I mean, when you have a first person experience, it's a parent. If you're sitting in the woods meditating and Lois, and you become one with everything, one with all the galaxies and all the stars and the earth and all the planets, and you feel drenched in love and bliss. You know it. It's a direct, immediate, first person experience growing up, which is these different worldviews that we go through, archaic, magic, mythic, rational, pluralistic or integral. When you're going through those stages of growing up, you have no idea that you're at a particular stage of development, because a stage of development is more like grammar. It's like a third person explanation of a worldview, or a third person explanation of an IT or is, or a magic or mythic or irrational or pluralistic, or an integral worldview. And so
Greg Voisen
Kieran, why do you believe as a species, as the human species? This is an off the wall question, but I think appropriate, because understanding all of this is we journey through life, whatever it might be, and as we contemplate our finitude, right to make a transition off the fiscal plane into a spiritual experience, whatever we believe might happen to us, we're gonna, you know, we're gonna reincarnate where, whatever that might be, if, if most of reaching and finding radical wholeness is to help us grab on to a concept or idea that will allow us to explain the afterlife, okay? Because I think in the end, all religions have been pretty focused. On. Well, here's what will happen to you in your afterlife, right? Whatever that might be. Now that wasn't one of my preset questions, but it is important, I think, for listeners to say, hey, look, I'm studying all this. I'm becoming quite spiritual. I'm understanding. I think I have a better understanding of what might happen to me. How would you put that in the context, if I pick up finding, I don't know if you have a copy of the book there, finding radical holders, but if I find radical wholeness, is that potentially going to make my transition off this physical plane into a spiritual plane that much easier?
Ken Wilber
Uh, yes, it will. And okay, that's because if you look at the component of radical home, it's called waking up. That's where you ditch your small self, your ego self, and not you, but Christ or Godhead is living in you. And notice the overall number of real godheads, of real sons outside the cave is but one, and that means your deepest self and my deepest self are the same thing, because when you realize your oneness, you're one with everything, and there's only one of that. And what I realize my oneness, I'm also one with insane everything you're one with. So the overall number of true selves, or real selves, or big cells, or big mind, as Suzuki road she called it, is one erring, straining, or the founder of modern quantum mechanics, said, consciousness is a singular, the plural of which is unknown. In other words, the number of consciousnesses is just one. There's not two. Your consciousness is not different from my consciousness. We both plug in to the same oneness, the same radical homes, and that's what we actually are, and that's why we feel one with all sentient beings, one with all living animals, one with all people. And that is a oneness that makes us feel literally at home in the real universe, because we're one with everything that's arising.
Greg Voisen
I, you know, I go back to remembering as you're speaking about bone and the work that he did, you know, and I I really, and I know you've read most of his stuff, it really resonates with me. But now here we are in modern life. All of us call it modern life. Call it what you want. And finding radical all this is presenting a vision that integrates spirituality with this modern life. So as a listener on the other side of the screen right now, it's like, okay, these guys are talking about some very complex concepts for me to understand. But how can the readers apply the principles the two waking up and growing up into a daily routine that will help them make this I'm just going to call it integration transition, yeah,
Ken Wilber
okay. Well, let me give a very simple example that will show you exactly what a non dual oneness is life and and this works for about 50% of the people that I explain it to will get it rather immediately, and about 50% will sort of get it. But it's it was invented by Douglas Harding, who's a member of the London Buddhist society. So he's very interested in enlightenment and awakening and a non dual oneness with everything. And he calls it on having no head. And this is where we either get people at
Greg Voisen
Loon, I hear where you're going,
Ken Wilber
but Douglas Harding says, notice you can see every part of your body. You can see your toes, your feet, your legs, your thighs, your waist, your chest, your arms, your hands, your fingers. But there's one part of your body you cannot see. You cannot see your head. If you look for your head, all you'll see are two little Bobby pink blotches, and that's your nose. But you can't see your head. I can see your head, and you can see my head, but I can't see my head and you can't see your head. There's just you. Behind your face, there's just this blankness and but Douglas Hardy points out, if you actually look at that blankness, what you'll see is everything that you're looking at. So right now, if you look at your computer screen, you'll notice that because you don't have a head, your computer screen is appearing right where you thought your head was, and you are it's on this side of your face, and you're one with your computer screen because you don't have a head and the so the computer screen is sitting right where you thought your head was. And the same is true of what's behind your computer screen. You're looking at the wall, but the wall isn't out there. The wall is sitting right where you thought your head was. And if you look at that tree, that tree isn't out there is sitting right where you thought your head was, and that is this. So
Greg Voisen
that explanation is supposed to allow our listeners to understand that it's really integrated
Ken Wilber
awareness and a non tool awareness is one. Subject and object are one, and they're always one. They're always appearing where you thought your ad was. I
Greg Voisen
understand it, and I hope for our listeners, that your explanation and they can actually go look up at what was the person's name. Again, Douglas
Ken Wilber
Harding and that was hard on having no head, on
Greg Voisen
having no head. So if you need to go out and get that to understand that better. Now look, you talk about integral meta theory, right? And to understand the big wholeness, you use this term. Can you break down this concept for listeners who might be new to your work, which there's probably plenty out there that are new to Ken wilber's work, that are listening to this podcast, sure, if
Ken Wilber
we take those five areas that we're slowly going through, waking up, growing up, opening up, cleaning up and showing up. We've talked about waking up, which is finding that everything is actually sitting where your head was and you're one with all of it. And that's waking up and growing up is going through these various and more inclusive types of world views, so archaic, the magic, the mythic, the rational, the pluralistic, the integral, and each one of those world views is more whole or more inclusive. So by the time you get up to integral you have a very large wholeness, because you have a mind that has a worldview that's including everything. That's why it's called an integral worldview, and then opening up. Remember, we talked about somewhere between eight and 12 multiple intelligences. Well, you can actually, when I first found out about multiple intelligences, for example, I didn't know that we had eight to 12 of them. I just thought, oh yeah, I've got an intelligence. I've got a cognitive thinking, logical intelligence, and that was my idea of my intelligence. But we actually have not just cognitive or thinking intelligence, we have emotional intelligence, we have moral intelligence. We have spiritual intelligence. We have beauty or esthetic intelligence. We have spatial intelligence. And when I was first learning about these, I would take one day of the week, say Monday, and I would pick one intelligence, say esthetic or beauty intelligence, and I would just try to use that intelligence all day to just see, how could I get a feel for it? And when I first tried it, not everything looked very beautiful. But the more I kept using beauty and looking for beauty, the more I would see beauty. And an enormous number of things started to look really beautiful to me as an idea.
Greg Voisen
So how do those intelligence play a role in one's personal growth or spiritual development? You've just talked about these intelligences and and of what was the number you have a spiritual intelligence. You have a helpline intelligence, yeah, or. Intelligence, right, right? So how do they play a role for us who are listening in actually our personal growth and our spiritual development?
Ken Wilber
Well, the point is, each of these multiple intelligences are called lines of development, because there, if you draw a graph and you put the levels of development, archaic magic, mythic, rational, pluralistic, integral on going up the scale and drawn out like that, each multiple intelligence is a line that grows through those levels. So we have about eight to 12 lines of development, cognitive, emotional, moral, esthetic, spiritual and so on, and they are each growing through those levels. So in cognitive intelligence, you'll actually have a worldview that goes from archaic when you're six months old to magic when you're two to three years old to mythic when you're five or six years old to rational as you hit adolescence, to pluralistic. As you get older and you continue to grow, you'll go through pluralistic state. And then is as you continue to grow, you'll go through an integral stage. Well, that's where your moral stages also go from archaic to magic to mythic to rational the pluralistic, the integral. And your beauty stages will go through that, and your emotional stages will go through that. And so when you start to find all of your multiple intelligences, and you actually sort of practice using each of them, then they'll start to come together into a wholeness. And that's why that's an aspect, an important aspect, of our radical wholeness. It includes not only our waking up, not only our growing up, but also our opening up, opening up to all of our multiple intelligences. It
Greg Voisen
almost seems like at a vibratory level, we are resonating at different levels at different times in our life on all right scale, right? So if I was to show you even a sound wave from you and I talking right now, you you might see it up, or you would see everything. You know, maybe we reach the highest integral level, or we're at a different level. And I think that emotional intelligence is really an important one. This reason in in our current you know, look, you wrote a book about Trump you, and I did a podcast about it, which is just totally fascinated that we are where we are in this world, and that it had become so fragmented and polarized. But I think finding radical wholeness can actually be a way for us to figure out how to put this together so it isn't confusing. So how can finding this radical illness guide individuals to create, I mean, the Dalai Lama always says the and I have a non profit called compassionate communications. He says, The only thing that's going to solve the world problem is more compassion amongst one another. Now, look, it's pretty simplistic. That's simplistic as it comes but the re the reality is, hey, look, in defined compassion, you have to have forgiveness, you got to be grateful, you got to have a lot of things going on in your life to actually say that I'm compassionate and that it isn't just empathy, it's true compassion, right? So how do we create more unity and connection in the people out here are listening their communities. I know some people took some pretty radical steps. You know, one guy I had on here is like, Okay, I don't believe what these people do that shoot guns out in the fields, but I'm going to go out there and be with all these guys, and I'm going to get a gun, and I'm going to shoot at the target range practice just to see who these people are right, right? And and he found this amazing awakening that they want that different, right? As he spoke with them, and I was like, Wow, that's pretty cool that somebody didn't feel separate. They were willing to take the step into going to a gun range to actually realize who these folks were. Can you speak with us about how we can use this to not be so? Pardon me, fucking polarized.
Ken Wilber
Yeah. Well, what's what you want to do for a big wholeness is take each of its Sections and. Work on it, practice it. So when we look at waking up, then we want to practice having no head, or we want to practice being one with everything we're aware of. And that's an actual practice. You actually have to do it. And you can do it with a simple analogy of having no head, because whenever you remember you have no head, you everything that appears out there will just collapse and be right where you thought your head was. And so you can practice that, and the more you practice that, the more you'll feel a oneness with everything you're aware of because it's sitting right where you thought your hedge was. And the more we practice growing up, we can be like at the rational stage of development, and we want to develop to a higher, pluralistic stage. Well, pluralistic intelligence is simply, well, preface it by saying rational intelligence creates just unified systems. So when you have a rational intelligence, you don't have German chemistry and Buddhist chemistry and Hindu chemistry. There's just chemistry because that it's a rational product, and rationality just speaks out universal systems. Whole universal rational systems. When you get to the pluralistic stage, it looks at all the world's different cultures, and it says, Wait a minute, these different cultures have different types of truth, and which one's right? Well, in a sense, they're all right. I just have to realize they're true, but partial. And so I'll start to take a more multicultural view of the world, and I'll realize that there's all of these multicultural truths, and I have to take all of them into account if I want to have a real view of the whole world. Of course it will be a multicultural view, and so but what multiculturalism can't do is it can't draw all of those views into unified whole that happens at the next stage, the integral stage and integral
Greg Voisen
then when? When do people begin to realize to release their biases at what stage? At what stage would it be that, because a lot of these biases run within people, they don't even realize they're hidden bias? Right At what stage would I have a realization that I'm being biased, and then an opportunity to release or let go of that bias, the engine I'm holding, the integral stage so you actually have to go all the way to the top of these to to remove those biases that we That's
Ken Wilber
right, and that's to get a real homes, and that's why growing up is an important portion of finding a radical homes.
Greg Voisen
So why are people so afraid to release these beliefs, biases, understandings that they carry around to go into what you're explaining seems to too many people are listening, a bit amorphous, right? It's like, oh, wow, I'm gonna be at this integral state, and that's where I'm gonna live. I'm gonna live in an integral state. And it's like, Well, can I really live in that integral state, or am I gonna, like, bounce around in between all these lines and levels to really actually reach that or at least, you know, I heard it said, it was Joel and Michelle Levey, who've been my meditation teachers, for a while, they put a thing out that the Dalai Lama said about mindfulness, but are you really mindful? Or are you really pretending to be mindful of something like that, that he said? And it's like, well, so how do I reach this incorporate this mindful state in daily routine so that I could live at this integral state, so that I really, actually exemplify right Ken. Because I tell people, this is very simple way to do this. If somebody had a video camera of you and why and videoed your whole day and that you played it back at the end of day, would you really like what you saw, right? And if you didn't like it, what would you change? And I think from an awareness standpoint, that creates a heightened awareness for what it is that I need to change to reach the integral state. Would that be a reasonable statement, but in real layman's terms?
Ken Wilber
Yes. Said, no, okay, when you're going through stages of growing up, there's not much choice. When you move from archaic to magic, when you're around two years old, three years old, that's not a choice. You don't come out of the archaic stage and say, Gosh, I gotta get better. I've got to get bigger. I know I'll start thinking, magically, it doesn't work like that. These are actual, determined stages of growing up, and they emerge through a developmental process that's an evolutionary process, and each evolutionary process transcends and includes its predecessor. So as I said, mythic transcends and includes magic. It transcends magic because it goes beyond to a larger mythic sphere, but it also includes magic, because each supernatural being can actually perform magic. And so the same when you move from magic to mythic, from mythic to rational, from rational to pluralistic, and from pluralistic to integral. So you don't you very rarely get to a point where you go, Oh, I'm at this stage, and I don't like it. I want to get bigger. So I'm going to grow to a pluralistic stage. Or if I'm pluralistic, I'm going to grow to an integral stage. That doesn't usually happen as you interact with the world, and you continue to get all this feedback from the world, it'll either fit or it won't fit, and if it doesn't fit, you'll start to feel a little bit of cognitive dissonance, a little bit of uncomfortableness, and not that you'll consciously do this, but you'll sort of want to overcome this tension, that's your feeling, and that will be the push for your evolution, right?
Greg Voisen
So your evolution will occur as a result of it. So you actually have to go through these stages, that's actually ascend that's true this level, and there isn't a choice, is what I heard you said, right? Like, hey, I have to experience that to actually get there, right? You don't get to choose, just, I'm going to go there. But, but when you have that centoria experience you had at 19, doesn't that accelerate the process of actually getting there, because here you are a dishwasher, and all of a sudden, you know, you write your first book, and it's like, oh, well, but that doesn't happen to a lot of people, yeah,
Greg Voisen
hopefully I didn't throw you a zinger.
Ken Wilber
No, no, no. I'm just trying to think the simplest way to explain it, that growth process is a very real evolutionary process, and we see the same process occurring phylogenetically as Human beings arose from apes and into the first magical beings. That when human beings first emerged as human beings, they emerged as magicians because they actually thought that if they changed the word that was signifying a tree, it would actually change the real tree. Or if they had a voodoo doll, they stuck a knife in it, it would actually hurt the person that the Voodoo Doll represents. And so we lived consciously in magic all the time, but magic is clearly not in touch with real reality, and so we would always feel a little bit of blowback from being so magical, and that would create a tension, and that tension would force us to a higher level of evolution, which happened to be mythic, or mythic literal. And so all these gods and goddesses and nature spirits would come into existence. Every stream had a god or goddess. Every mountain had a god or goddess. Every cloud was had a god or goddess, and that's how we saw the world. But clearly there are problems with that, because are there real gods and goddesses in nature like that? Probably not. And we'll give that. We'll give up that notion anyway, when we get the blow back from well, I don't, I can't actually find a god in this mountain, or I can't find a. God is in this tree, so I'm just going to drop that, and we moved from those mythic to a rational stage, and that's why there's since religion comes from a mythic, literal stage of development, when we went to that phylogenetically, starting around 50,000 to 10,000 years BC, we started to develop the exoteric religions all around the world, and all of them have some belief in some sort of supernatural being or beings, some of them are polytheistic, occasionally, some of them became monotheistic. And the monotheistic religions were ones that actually were introducing greater unity into our developmental sequence, and that unity would be increased when we developed to the rational stage. Because the rational stage we find unified universal systems. So there wasn't Protestant chemistry versus Indian chemistry versus Buddhist chemistry. There was just chemistry, and it arose mostly in the modern West with the enlightenment, and we just dropped all of this. Oh, there's chemistry for trees and chemistry for clouds and chemistry for mountains. There's just chemistry, and it's the same, universally. That's a very rational statement. And then we realized that, well, wait a minute, there's more than just one chemistry, because all these different cultures have their own types of multicultural truths, and we have to start incorporating those. And so we would move into this multicultural stage. And then, as we were looking for unity in that, we developed integral stages of development. And that happened phylogenetically. And each time a new stage emerged, it became permanently available to individual humans. And every time a human being is born, they go through the same stages in the same order as we did collectively as a species. So a young child today will go from archaic to magic to mythic to rational to pluralistic to integral stages of development. So we're not really choosing those. They're sure, yeah, no,
Greg Voisen
i that is the kind of the set stage and the person that did all that work, who is that? Again you mentioned their name on a repeat, it actually that came up with that work that wasn't your work, particularly, was it? No,
Ken Wilber
what I did is I took all the developmental psychologists and put all of their work together on those yellow pads
Greg Voisen
and but the developmental psychologist that actually came up with that order you mentioned earlier in the podcast, and I was trying to remember his name, lovenger. There you go. Levenger, yeah. So I think for my listeners too, they ought to go out and look for her book as well. Because, yeah,
Ken Wilber
but Jane, loving her didn't invent the levels. She didn't discover them. She discovered them as they went through the self sense, or the ego sense. So she wrote a book called The stages of ego development. And so ego development is one multiple intelligence that we have, and therefore it's one of those eight to 12 lines of development that all go through those major levels of development. Now the words that I'm using for those levels, archaic, magic, mythic, rational, pluralistic and integral, those were invented by a man named Gene debsu, but every developmental psychologist that studied a multiple line, and Maslow studied the needs line, Kohlberg studied the moral line, Piaget studied the cognitive line, they all found the same levels of development, although they Give them their own names, of course, right, right, right, but they all were going through because all of our multiple lines of development go through these specific levels of development and and so what I did is I was the first one to pull them all together together.
Greg Voisen
And. Okay, yeah, you know, you have worked at such deep, deep levels of trying to help people understand. I think this book, finding radical wholeness, as we mentioned before, coming on the podcast, is a similar work, and it's a work that could help almost anybody enter this space, maybe has not had any exposure to it at all and really understand what we've been talking about for the last hour and five minutes or so. So I want to kind of end this podcast with this. You know, you've got this book that you've created the finding radical wholeness. You we've talked about the stages, right? What do you hope readers are going to take away? And how do you envision the book impacting their spiritual journey? In other words, if they just walk away and they say, Oh, I know the five pass now it's waking up, growing up, opening up, cleaning up, showing up, and I've got that, and that's one way for me to easily understand what Ken is talking about. And here is the getting to this point of integral, right? Would you say that you'd like for them to take that away? But what do you really want them to, like, move away where they can actually start practicing something or diving into that would help them find this wholeness. Sure.
Ken Wilber
Let me explain cleaning up, because it's a very good example of how learning these different five main paths that need to be included in a radical wholeness. It's a very good example of the good stuff that can come from learning each individual stream. So cleaning up. What do we mean by that? Cleaning up his generally ascribe to Sigmund Freud and his inner circle. And Freud was a genius, and because of that, he attracted a whole group of literal geniuses to work with him. And he generally had five of them, and it was called as inner circle. And most people have heard some of these names, Carl, Jung, Otto, rank, Salvador, forensic, and names such as those. And those were the group of people that together came up with the whole understanding of cleaning up. And when Freud was asked, What does this news psychoanalysis of yours do? He famously said, where Id was, their ego shall become. And most people know the terms ID and ego because they got them from Freud. Well, what they don't know, what almost nobody knows, is Freud himself never once used the term ID or ego. He used the German pronouns, the IT and the ah. So he would say the he wouldn't say the ID can cause the ego a lot of trouble. He would actually write that it can cause the I much trouble. And his official translator, James stalking, translated it into Latin, which is it? And he translated i into Latin, which is ego. And he did that because Latin heathelle made Freud sound more scientific. And so he simply changed that in all of Freud's books, except one called the problem of lay analyzes are written with ID, libido and ego. But what Freud actually said when he was asked, What does the psychoanalysis choose do? He said, where it was there, I shall become now that's a very interesting and very accurate statement, because what happens, what Freud discovered, is that people can actually split off aspects of their own mind, judge them negatively, and repress them out of awareness into the unconscious, and when they do that, they almost always refer to what they pushed out of awareness by a third person pronoun like it, right? Let's say the anxiety it overcomes me, or the oppression I can't control it. I. Or my desire to eat, I can't I have no control over it yet, and so on. So what Freud wanted them to do is convert that edit back to part of their eye. And perhaps the best of Freud's followers at doing this was a man named Fritz. Perls and earls, many people have heard of his name because pearls was a superstar at Esalen Institute. And Esalen Institute was founded by Mike Murphy, who wrote litter, yeah, and Mike is very good friend of mine. I just love Mike, but his family left him this gorgeous spot of land in Big Sur California, right on the by the ocean. Now, well, that's excellent Institute. And so pearls would always do workshops there, and he became super famous for doing this. But he would usually at least 100 people would show up for every workshop he did, and he would say, Okay, who wants to work? Come on up front, and he sit them down in a chair, and then in front of them, he put in an empty chair. And then they say, okay, like Gestalt therapy? Almost, yes. And it which fits pearls invented Gestalt therapy, right, right? So, he the person would come up and sit down in the chair, and so pearls would say, Okay, what's your problem? And the person, I say something, well, like I have this anxiety and it's driving me crazy, right? So pearls would say, Okay, I want you to put that anxiety in this empty chair and talk to it as if it were a person, right?
Greg Voisen
And the person were new or move shares. I mean, it also reminds me so much of what you're saying. Is the other days, somebody trying to think of her name was talking about Byron Katie, and Byron's been on the show many times, but you know, if you ask Byron Katie's five questions, it's going to pretty much do almost the same thing, right? I mean, I've gone through Gestalt there, because my listeners know that I got a degree in spiritual psychology. And the reality is, we studied Carl Jung, we started Perlman. Well, all of them, right? All the greats. And I have seen amazing transformation in people's lives by doing Gestalt therapy, just like what you were talking about, you know, put it in the chair, talk to it, understand whether it was my father that I had issues with or my mother. Go in the chair and pretend that, right, that who's in the chair and pearls.
Ken Wilber
Pearls famously said, I can cure any neurosis in 15 minutes. And the joke is even his critics tending who hated him, tended to agree pearls was just a master of neurosis. And so when he's when you put the anxiety in the empty chair. And then he say, Okay, talk to it. So the person would say, Okay, why are you doing this to me? And the person say, Okay, now you sit in the empty chair, and you become the anxiety. And answer, you just ask yourself a question, why are you doing this to me? So answer as the it has the anxiety. So the person would say, well, because you're stupid and you're dumb and you always mess stuff up, and so I just love to sue your ass out. And then you say, Okay, now sit back again and answer as that. And so they go back and forth, and he'd actually get them involved in a conversation? Well, a conversation uses first person as second person, and then what they're talking about third person. Well, the it starts out as a third person. It is a third person pronoun, and so as as the person would play the it and talk to it as their eye. So they're going to say, Well, I'm doing this to you because you're stupid and you're an idiot or so on there. But even everybody in the audience could see in about 10 or 15 minutes that the person's anxiety was dramatically diminishing, and it was diminishing because they were re identifying with that. It identifying it as an eye. And so where it was their eyes shall become, and that was the brilliance of Freud and girls was a genius himself,
Greg Voisen
well, and you've contributed so much to this space that it's it's truly phenomenal the works you've done, 35 books, as you said, look for everybody out there listening. I want you to go get a copy. I don't have a copy yet. I know that Colin or Andrew is going to send me one. But the reality is, is that it's called Finding. Radical wholeness. You can get it now. We'll have a link to it on Amazon. You also can go to Ken wilber.com as well. That's another place where you can learn more about Ken and his works in the integral theory and those kind of things. Ken again, it's been an honor having you back on again to address our listeners and our viewers for both the ones that that participates on YouTube as well, and I think that while we did bounce around a lot, I'm hoping everybody's listened to this podcast really got a flavor and a feel for what finding radical wholeness could do. It is an entry point book. It's an easier book for you to understand. It's a way for you to move to spirituality, potentially, from somebody who's confused by maybe a religious practice. It's an opportunity for you to explore new ways of being whole. Maybe you haven't had that experience of oneness or wholeness yet, but through some of the things you're going to learn, you can get there and again. Ken, thanks for being on. Namaste to you. Appreciate you and your whole staff for setting this up, calling in. Andrea, thanks so much to all of you guys for giving us this opportunity to put you back on inside personal growth.
Ken Wilber
Do you have another 10 minutes? I have another few minutes. But yeah, go, okay, because you asked me, How could somebody use this in daily life, and how's it going to help them find a wholeness. And I said, Let me tell you about cleaning up, because they'll be able to see how, when they start to understand cleaning up, you understand a couple of general things. And again, the way you get to a big radical wholeness is you learn each of the five aspects of that radical wholeness, and then you sort of they'll start to combine when you learn each of them individually and with cleaning up, what the first things you learn is that almost everything in the environment that bothers you is some aspect of yourself that you've sealed off, repressed and projected. And so if you have a boss you think is too over controlling and it just drives you crazy, it's because you yourself have some over controlling tendencies, and you've repressed them and projected them onto your boss. Now he might also be over controlling but now he's got two over controlling drives. He's got his own and he's got all of yours. And so of course, that double whammy is gonna you're gonna hate it, and you're gonna hate your boss. And that's just an example of how everything in your environment that upsets you is a shadow projection. In other words, you take some material, you seal it off his shadow, and you project that shadow onto other people or things or events, and it drives you crazy, because it's it's going to come back at you, because you're at its source,
Greg Voisen
right? So, and people have to awaken to, you know, you talk about opening up, you've got to awaken to really understand that that's what you're doing. So many people are unconscious of that actual act. I mean, you're talking about it. So cleaning up, getting to the stages of cleaning up is like, Hey, I've gone through awareness, I've gone to opening up, I've gone to growing up. I've gone through the stages that you were talking about. So I could really even get to a point of cleaning up. Because the reality is, they're not going to get to cleaning up unless they have those other stages they go through first. So that's right, you know, as you've really articulated it quite well in the book. And again, a pleasure having you on a pleasure to speak with you again and and really get our listeners exposed to this. Go out, get a copy of the book. Explore what's in between the pages. Go to Ken's website. You can look at some of his other books as well. There's many of them. We'll put links to the other podcasts as well on this blog entry. But again, Ken, you, you certainly are somebody that the world needs to listen to more. And hopefully what you take away today is that you're going to go through these stages. Be patient with yourself. Give yourself lots of self love, honor and respect who you are, and also, you know, use some forgiveness in the whole process, forgiveness or what you may have done, forgiveness or what other people did to you, and be conscious of that. Thanks so much, Ken.
Ken Wilber
You bet buddy, thank you.
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Inside Personal Growth with Greg Voisen · Podcast 1156: Reason and Revelation: Scholarly Essays about The Urantia Book with Byron BelitsosIn this insightful episode of Inside Personal Growth, we have the pleasure of hosting Byron Belitsos, a renowned author, editor, and award-winning book publisher, to discuss his latest work, Reason and Revelation: Scholarly Essays about The Urantia Book. Byron is a returning guest, he’s been with us on episodes 117 and 635 for his books The Center Within and Your Evolving Soul.
Byron has dedicated years to exploring the deep teachings of The Urantia Book and, in this episode, he shares the significance of this new anthology. This collection of essays represents a bridge between the profound spiritual insights of The Urantia Book and contemporary scholarly thought in religious studies, philosophy, and theology.
Byron’s expertise in blending the spiritual with the intellectual offers listeners a unique perspective on how The Urantia Book continues to influence modern thought and spirituality. Throughout the episode, we dive into topics such as the academic world’s perception of The Urantia Book, the value of integrating its teachings with mainstream scholarship, and how his new book brings together some of the finest research on this transformative text.
This conversation is not just for readers of The Urantia Book, but for anyone with an interest in spiritual evolution, religious studies, and intellectual inquiry. Byron’s work encourages thoughtful dialogue and opens doors for a greater understanding of the cosmic revelations contained within this extraordinary text.
You may also refer to the transcripts below for the full transciption (not edited) of the interview.
Interview Transcipt -Not EditedEmailDownloadNew TabGreg Voisen
Welcome back to Inside Personal Growth. This is Greg Voisen, the host of Inside Personal Growth. And joining us from you're in New York today. Is that correct?
Byron Belitsos
I'm actually not. I moved to Washington, DC, so I'm in Washington.
Greg Voisen
Washington, DC. So, Byron is a returning guest, and he used to be in San Rafael, but we're going to be speaking with him this morning about one of his many books. But this is the newest one “Reason and Revelation: Scholarly Essays about The Urantia Book, and it's Byron Belitsos, am I saying it right? He was on the show a couple of other times. We were just actually speaking about that. We're gonna put a link to his other book, “Your Evolving Souls”, one of his many books, which he did a podcast with us back in August of 2017 and he always was also on the show for a podcast 117 “The Center Within” and that was in 2009 so he has quite a history with us. We actually reached out to him because we saw that he'd published a new book, and he responded, and we appreciate that. And I think for my listeners, let's just give them a tad bit about you. He was telling me that this bio isn't complete, but it is a bio, and we want all of our listeners to go to Rodan Institute, r-o-d-a-n-i-n-s-t-i-t-u-t-e.org, after you listen to this podcast and you want to learn more, go there and leave your information, put in your name, your email address, and they will get back to you. And this is a new site for him that he's just launched, but I'm going to tell him a little bit about you. Byron. He's a leading expert in the Urantia book with training in psychology and philosophy, history and theology, and he just got his is a master's degree in theology. And where'd you get that from
Byron Belitsos
Union Theological Seminary in New York City.
Greg Voisen
Okay, he is a publisher. He's a real publisher, meaning he publishes his own books and he publishes other books as well. And the coauthor of numerous acclaim and award winning books, including many related to the urantian Revelation, a student of the raja book for many decades, and he's spoken about its teachings at many conferences and innumerable radio and TV shows. And he is also the founder of origin press. That's originpress.org There we actually have a later interview today that's coming up with Ken Wilber, and he has actually worked with Ken. It looks like even published maybe some of his original books at one point.
Byron Belitsos
Yeah, no, I haven't published Ken, but I was part of his Institute as well, the integral Institute, and known him a very long time. Yes, yeah.
Greg Voisen
So, this is, this is my spirituality day. I got all spirituality people on today, so it's a good thing. Well, I appreciate you joining us on Inside personal growth. And I'm sure my listeners do. And you know, as you get into this book, I think I keyed you up a little bit before the origins, kind of of how this came about. Dr Sadler, well known psychiatrist in Chicago with his wife, Lena, in 1955 they compiled these teachings, or claimed to have received it via this. Well, how do you want to call it? It's almost like it came through them, correct? That'd be the best way to say it from celestial beings. And I think it'd be good for you, because you've studied this so much, to actually give the listeners just a little bit of an overview of how this whole series came about, and how did you get involved in it.
Byron Belitsos
Well, it's a big story, but I'll kind of condense it down to a few, a few ideas, a few historical thoughts about what so it's, it's. A it's a kind of a big narration, because there is no channel for the text. It is not actually channeled by Sadler and his wife. It is the case that in the way back in like 19, sorry, 1910 there was a contact that was brought to them. And Sadler was a psychiatrist and a pretty famous guy already, and was an expert in psychology. And he they brought this person who had been speaking through him. And he was, he was, his thing was debunking channeling at that time. So he, he was, he was trained by Freud. He was, he was a man of his time. He was a scientist. He also surgeon. Back then, you could be a surgeon and a psychiatrist, right? So he, so this, he was debunking various channels, because there were all over the place that those in those days, psychic phenomena was a big thing. People don't realize that. So he tried to debunk this, and this being was speaking to him through this guy, and asking him to interact. And so they did, the wife, and it was secret they interacted. So basically what they said was it's time for an update for Western civilization regarding your scripture. And he's like, oh, yeah, sure, you know. So, you know, and so. But the dialog went on for years, and adding a scientist, he tested it, and he he was trying to find out, how is this guy making this up? Because it was like Edgar Cayce, you know, because Edgar Casey's in a kind of sleep, sleeping, right? So, so some people think this is Edgar Casey,
Greg Voisen
kind of like the Course in Miracles too. You know, that was another one that was supposedly channeled, right? I'm not saying that it is or it wasn't, because I'm not here to deny it. I'm just saying that Course in Miracles, same thing, right?
Byron Belitsos
Well, it's compared to the course, but the course is different because we know that Helen Schucman actually wrote it. She acknowledges that, and Bill Thetford was there and saw the whole thing. And so this is different, although it's similar in the sense that it's an amazing text, you know, like, how she
Greg Voisen
and not to get off the subject, but she was in the Bay Area where you live most of your life, right, right? So, did you ever meet her? No,
Byron Belitsos
I never did. But I met the people around her because everybody, you know, they were doing those outreach and everybody, but she was reclusive. I never met her, yeah,
Greg Voisen
but yeah. So the Saddler and his wife, they literally tried to debunk this, and they said, It's time for a new update, right? It's like, what? And that update took how many years?
Byron Belitsos
20 years so, so by 1924 the the being said, Well, we've been talking for a while, and I've answered your questions, and others have come here and answered your questions. These are like Edgar Casey kind of dialogs, right? And now we're going to bring through for you a new epochal revelation to mankind, right? And they're like, Well, what do you mean? They said, well, you'll see. So we don't know exactly how these papers, they call their chapters or papers, but they would, in a sense, materialize. Okay, so the my book, reason of Revelation, tells that story in one of the chapters. How noticed, correct? Yeah. So it's kind of a must read, because this is the definitive history by the guy that was present in Dr Sandler.
Greg Voisen
So what compiled you to take this reasons in Revelation at a scholarly examination of this Urantia Book. Because, you know, look, there's been lots written around it, and you're one of, if not, the key experts, I would say. And I used the term expert, because I really believe that you are, what were you? What are you trying to do for our listeners through this volume that you've written,
Byron Belitsos
it's a kind of like a testimony to love, because if our divine parent is the way I like to say it, or divine parents, Father God, Mother God, if they really love us, right? If your parents love you, right? So your parents want to talk to you, say, once a month, right? It'll give you a call, right? They don't like say, Oh, we're your parents, and we're never going to talk to you again for 2000 years. That's sort of what Christianity is. Like you get I see, let me get this to. X but no updates. That's all over, and we're not going to be updating that. We don't care if you have World War Two. We don't care if you have artificial intelligence. We're not giving you any updates, because all it's all done in the first century. So, you know, take it or leave it.
Greg Voisen
So this is, this is, in your estimation, kind of an update. It's a talk from the parents to the children, right? If we want to refer it, saying, I still love you. I'm here, but you don't have to wait 2000 years in between to hear from me again. Yeah,
Byron Belitsos
but I say hello, you know. But not only that, I'll give you a little update on things. And you know, because back in the first century, they didn't, you know, they didn't have email, they didn't have, you know, fax, they didn't have television. But now you're, you know, electronic age. You're in the post Einstein era of your world. And so you have an update. And you know, plus, you know we love you, because you're our creature. You know We're your parents. And so it's, it's incumbent upon us to give you new revelations. And we have been giving you some revelations through prophets. You know, through you know Martin Luther King, you know, through the great prophets of the Middle Ages, you know, the early years of Christianity. So prophets are one thing. Those are, those are great personal revelations that come through important teachers, and also in eastern you know Buddha and other Lao, Tzu and all the rest. These are prophets of God of spirit. So we're giving you prophets but, but that's more personal. We're also going to give you a collective update to all the planet all at once. And that's a type of Scripture.
Greg Voisen
Well, you kind of describe this the Urantia Book, and for any listeners who have it, fine, if you don't, you can go out and buy it, and you can get it anywhere, and you you, I put this in quote, a futuristic Encyclopedia of theology, Marta, modern cosmology and spirituality. How does this, this inner disciplinarian approach, kind of benefit our readers? There's a lot of people here that come to my show. They're spiritual. They're not they're not religious. Okay? Obviously, we know the main religions in the world, and we see what's happening and going on and the divisions that occur. I think I've always said this on the show religions have done more to divide people than unite people. I would hope that this is a book around love and uniting people, right? So we'll have, let's go there, right? I
Byron Belitsos
mean, so it's, it's always the teaching from above is about unity, love, sharing and taking care of one another. And certainly the golden rule is as like the universal rule of ethics, right? So that's but, you know, so we get the children down here, and the children squabble. So the parents, you know, come, come intervene in a loving way, but they correct them. So what we're also told is that this is a correcting time, a time of correction of the errors of the past, because the children have mismanaged the revelations to humankind, and they're having religious wars. I mean, God's sake, you know, yeah, well, we see them, yeah, right in front of us. And they're really acute. So if indeed, there is a loving parent in heaven, they want to, they want to be in dialog with their children who are squabbling, fighting and killing each other in Gaza, in Ukraine and and so they're on top of the moment. They are not, you know, sort of opted out. And you know, you gotta, you gotta, you know, destroy yourselves. And we're a different now. There no this is their planet. They are the creators.
Greg Voisen
So what I say? I would say I totally agree with that. Now, you know, you obviously, after all the years, it's been over 40 years that you've been studying this material, that about, right? Yeah, yes. So what are the key challenges faced by academics and scholars engaging with the Urantia Book, and how does this reasons and Revelation address these challenges? Because, you know, look, there's going to be people that don't believe a word we say today, and there's going to be certain people, because this show gets to a lot of people. I know it's, it's, it is more than a belief. It's a truth to somebody like yourself who has spent 40 years doing it, I always say it's the big T or the little T, right? And, and, and we know that. Beliefs can change, right? Somebody gets a belief, and then somebody can say something, and it can change. But when you have a truth, you're pretty focused on it. This is, this is very important to you, and I want to get that across. And I think from an academic standpoint and a scholarly standpoint, there's always then, okay, it's almost like science. How are you going to prove it?
Byron Belitsos
Yeah, that's, that's a valid question because, yeah, it's pretentious. Really, the Urantia Book, we call it Urantia revelation, also is pretentious. It's dating. This is an update of humankind from the celestials who oversee the planet. I mean, come on. I mean that, right, so, but the hardest part is to take it to scholars of religion,
Greg Voisen
exactly. Well, that must be fun for you. Those were fun debates that you have.
Byron Belitsos
I waited till I was, like, 68 years old to try it, right? You know, you know, my 20s, really, so I but, you know, it's, it's, it's justifiable, because, look, I mean, scholarship is like a wall. You got to climb right, and you can't go half up, way up the wall. You got to go to the top and over the other side to qualify to get your PhD, for example, right, right? And what does that mean? That means, you know, the literature in your field, you're not just a solo operator out there who thinks they've come up with something without peer review, right? So we got a lot of, you know, sort of crackpots, people that think they've got a revelation, but they, you know, as a publisher, I see them, they send their manuscripts to me, and I asked him, Well, have you what other books do you know of in the field? And they go, Well, I don't know of any other books in the field. And I'm like, Well, you haven't done your homework, because there's 1000 books in your in this field, and you think you're unique, but you don't even know what the other folks are saying. And these are your peers, right? So, but that's all that scholarship is. Scholarship says there's all these other experts, and we come together and we compare notes, and we we can scrutinize, because we're doing it full time. These guys are doing it full time, right? So I want to go to the people doing this full time and say, What do you think of this? So what happened was, in the last 20 years or more, scholars have been coming to the ranch book. So they wrote these essays and I collected them. That's what's already happening, but they do it in secret,
Greg Voisen
so I would assume it's a very challenging community to convince, but because you have all these scholarly papers already written, it's becoming easier to climb that wall, right? I give you, I give my listeners, a little bit of an example here. This is it isn't off the wall, because there is a correlation here. So most of these physicians who are trained at Harvard and especially in orthopedics, oh, people aren't going to use stem cell and they're not going to use it. No, no, it's got to be surgery. You have to do a surgery on the knee. That's the only way you're going to fix it, right? So, get this, there had been so many people denying alternative treatments for so many years from and the way this doctor explained me the East Coast, but he said, if you're on the West Coast, in San Francisco, now, this was his analogy, there's all this alternative practice going on. People are taking adipose out, injecting in people's knees, they're getting fantastic results, yet it was always and I know this may sound weird, oh no, you have to have a shoulder replaced or knee replaced with this done now the whole community. Now listen to this after however many years this has been and so many scholarly papers written about the validity of these other alternative practices has now said they're all shifting. And now, when you go to an orthopedics office, now, this sounds a little weird to be on religion here, but if you go in, they're offering alternative treatments, not just, oh well, we're going to take your knee out. We're going to put a new, you know, knee in. No, we're going to try all these alternative treatments. In a sense, I the reason I related that the correlation is it sounds like it's almost the same, because you have these scholarly people that came out of Harvard or wherever, said, Look, this is the only way you can do it. But after however many years. It's been 30 years, they've now all decided, guess what? There is some proof in what those other people were saying in San Francisco.
Byron Belitsos
I think it's an excellent analogy, because there's many elements in paradigm change, as you know, right? Yeah, so it's not just the. Intellectual, cognitive part of it, it's also that there's a group thing, and so people kind of unite around this is how we do it. And here's the evidence, right? Because in science, you got to show the evidence, right? But the only they only point you to the certain journals they don't want you to the alternative medicine journals of which they're very sophisticated. Now they don't even read that stuff. So why don't they? Well, that's, that's a corruption element. I mean, you're going to have to admit because the entire field has validity, because these are other people with PhDs and MDs that have done their home they're just in a different school of thought. So that's the same, and religion's even worse, right? Oh, so
Greg Voisen
definitely, we've had a lot of people come on here and and it's been a, I hate to say a battle, but kind of an uphill battle. But if you, if you're out there in it long enough you, you you see both sides, and you have to find a middle. And now one of these, you talk about the essays that you've from the rancho book as a compensatory gift to mankind. Could you elaborate on this concept and its relevance today? Because look, if the listeners go out and pick up your book, they're obviously going to if there haven't been exposed to this at all. The good thing about it is this book is for literally anybody who has never been exposed to this content before. I'm just going to say content, this philosophy, this spiritual philosophy, you can pick this book up, right? And if you really want to learn something new, you can learn it all in this pretty much in this book, right? That's what you wrote it for.
Byron Belitsos
Yeah, we I edited it. Of course, I didn't write it because they're a collection of essays, but I edited this because we need an introduction that is fairly advanced, but it's still an introduction. So it's not just like a popular introduction, it's an introduction that has depth of scholarly work, but it's excerpts. It's not like a huge, difficult book. So these, I chose these, and we edited these down so that you anybody could read. And so what we're attempting to do here is to show that the scholars that have looked at this have been, have have been a bridge from the past, right? These are people that you know. For one of the main scholars is a renowned, world renowned scholar on the Bible, but he's really a Urantia guy, so he he knows Paul, right? Apostle Paul as well as anyone in the world. So he wrote an essay on Paul for us that bridges from what Paul said in the Bible to what Paul would have said today. Right? So interesting, right? So there,
Greg Voisen
there is a, yeah, there is Byron, a your ranch, a foundation. For my listeners that are out there, you can obviously go to your website, you can get this book, but there's also your Rancho foundation. Now, this book explores really kind of a variety of spiritual themes, meaning their ranch book, right? Not your book. Your book basically has taken all this scholarly wisdom and taken excerpts from it and literally put those essays in there. But it's, it's really what I'm getting at is it kind of explores the nature of God as a loving, omnipotent being, right? It explores the concept of Trinity, the detailed cosmology explaining the structure of the universe and the role of celestial beings, the purpose of destiny and human life, and an expanded narrative of Jesus Christ's life differing from traditional Christian accounts. That be correct is that basically some of it
Byron Belitsos
differing but bridging, right? So it's not sort of like what a lot of new age is like, we're reinventing all the wheels, all this stuff in the past. It's wrong, it's sexist, it's racist, or whatever it's we're not It's not like that. It's not like pushing off against the past and say there's nothing. There's no wisdom coming down to us. We got to start over again right now. We're we're updating what you know the way Jesus, you know, for example, a sermon on the mount. When Jesus gave this right? It's a very big deal, and it's at the center of the New Testament, is what he said there. Well, the ranch book tell gives you the Sermon on the Mount pretty much the way it's in the Bible, but gives you the context for it, and tells you why he said these things. And it turns out that the Sermon on the Mount was not presented to the masses in the Bible, as it says in the Bible, it was presented to the apostles. It's the instruction for apostles who are direct disciples of Jesus. It is not necessary instruction for the whole world because it's almost impossible to carry out the. Attitudes, you know the teaching, unless you're like a monastic, you almost have a redundant to do it. So there's a confusion that you get in the record of the Bible, still the servant on the mount is good for everybody to read. Don't get me wrong, it's really great. But this, this is, this reshapes your perception of what Jesus was doing. And so we deserve to know that this is instructions to his apostles and disciples. So if you were devoted, this is your, your, your, your, your guide book is the Sermon on the Mount. But
Greg Voisen
so how does, how does the ratchet book reinterpret the life and teachings of Jesus, and what impact does this have on the traditional Christian belief? Because, look, there's a gazillion bazillion Christians out there, right? This isn't an attack of the Bible. This is what you're saying. Is kind of like a reboot, an update, right? Because it's been a long time since we revisited. You know, if it's my mother and father revisit, so it but for all those people that are out there, I mean, you've got quite a following already from the Urantia teachings, so obviously it's resonating, because looks, you know, you think about this as history has evolved. Times change, as times change, everything needs to be updated, right? And, and, I mean, so why? I guess, the question might be is, how did it came come up with the name Urantia? Oh,
Byron Belitsos
yeah, we should fill that in. So that is, you know, part of this revelation to the planet is, here's the name of your planet.
Greg Voisen
Oh, okay, that's
Byron Belitsos
a good ear. Up here the heavenly realms, we have a name. We don't call it Earth. It has a name. And Urantia is the name of the planet, okay? And it's means we identify, just like you have your name, your planets. Well, there, how many planets are there out there, or the universe? Is it just one that's inhabited, right? So, so this is right, so, but we didn't know that. In the 1920s and 30s, when the Urantia Book was coming through. We didn't know that. We didn't even know there were galaxies, barely galaxies, right? So this thing is telling you there are millions of galaxies and billions of inhabited worlds, and each one has a name. And so your ranch is a name on your planet.
Greg Voisen
So in in your view, Byron, how does the Urantia Book portray, the portray the cosmic evolution and the concept of what's called the Grand universe, because you're talking about it right now, the grand universe expand our understanding of spirituality. So how is that going to expand the our understanding like you just said, Hey, we didn't know all these other planets existed. We didn't know if they were inhabited or not inhabited the so and there was nothing going on out there about aliens at that point. Now, there's a, you know, a big focus on, are there aliens, and where are they coming from? And, you know, we got a zillion TV shows now about aliens So, and I don't dispel that they aren't here. They are
Byron Belitsos
they're here. And your edge book is very helpful for that, because the Bible came through in a period when they didn't even know that the Earth goes around the sun, okay, if they thought it was flat, you know, cosmology, you know, to build an advanced planetary civilization, you're going to build it on that. And just think about the other scriptures. They're all archaic. I mean, so the world needs an update on this stuff. Because if religion thinks, oh no, you know, God created the world in, you know, 6000 you know, in six, six days, and, and, and that's at that's the end of the story, then you got all this advanced science that everybody's going to be very confused. And that's why people are giving up on religion, because they know the religion is way out of date. It's, it's, it's, so you need an update in order to correct people's perception of their universe and the
Greg Voisen
right well and and the way that they've been practicing their religious beliefs is so radical in a sense, that it has created all of This much unrest, right? So the differences between but you explore this problem of evil in relation to the Urantia teachings. This is an interesting one, because how does this work address the complexities of sin and equity and spiritual growth? Now one that probably needed updating. Well. Three of those needed up dating, but it but basically explain that to us. Because I think from people listening today, that would be a big one, right? It really would be.
Byron Belitsos
That's really one of the biggest ones. I sent you my brand new book on that, by the way, and so I spent years on this issue of evil. So that's another big problem with the Bible. Okay? So, so Paul right, created a doctrine of sin, that side of Jesus's teaching. Actually, it's Paul's idea, all right, Chad invented an original sin, and it's actually a compelling doctrine, but it's not really quite right. It's our It's ancient and archaic. So they're born in sin. I mean that that is actually not what Jesus was saying, even in if you read the New Testament, New Testament business, Jesus doesn't say you're born in sin and you have to fear God. You know that's not what Jesus that's what Paul is saying, right? So, so we need an update on that, so we need a correction of Paul. So there, so, yeah, there's this problem of sin, but there's, there's a God, a loving God that forgives you and and not only that, God is not this absolute substance that just sits out there in the middle of the universe and judges people. God is evolving, right? It's not something they didn't even know that there was such a thing as evolution until, like, the 15th century.
Greg Voisen
Yeah, but if most people would say that are spiritual, they're listening, are going to say spirit is in everything. Spirit is another word for God, right? So you know, when you look at teachings like people ask me, you know, from an Eastern philosophy, self realization, fellowship, which is where I've kind of landed, right? You could everybody could question the teachings of Eastern philosophy. You can question Christianity, Judaism, any of them. So this one, this book in particular, takes one of the most important books of all these, which is the Bible, right? And the New Testament. And it says, Hey, looks. It needed a reboot. Here's the reboot. So you must be taking arrows from a lot of people, all
Byron Belitsos
right, okay, but it's, but it's a lot, lots at stake, and it's worth it. For example, as I was saying, people didn't know there was evolution. You know, the Catholic Church didn't think there was evolution until, like, No, I
Greg Voisen
know 1950 Right, right, right. How can
Byron Belitsos
you have a world teaching that doesn't believe in evolution in 2024 you just can't do it even like take Hinduism. You know Yogananda is, you know tradition. You know Hinduism didn't believe in evolution until Aurobindo. Sri Aurobindo was the only one really in that tradition who, at the same time as the ranch books. I know deity is evolving. Deity is absolute, but also evolving. That's not hard to get your mind around, but you're not going to be able to get anywhere if you say there is no evolution.
Greg Voisen
So when you're just talking about born in sin. So let's go back to that, you know, and and Paul and I, and I want to finish up with that, because I know, let's first give you to give you the the the the time to finish that explain, if you would, because you're going to reboot. You're going to give everybody a new understanding of sin. What Is that
Byron Belitsos
so? So this will take a minute or two, so let's try to dive in, right? Yeah, the book is also a correction. Again. This is the correcting time. We're correcting the the Miss, the misapprehensions that our civilization has as a whole, and a big part of it is Christianity. It's the world's biggest religion. So thing about sin, so how sin came into the world? So the archaic Bible, you know, has very important truths, but they're mythic in their framing. And this is what Ken Wilber teaches us, right? It's a mythic framing. We're not in the mythic era anymore. It's not the Middle Ages scientific error. So we need a scientific framing for this. So then we need a historical framing, right? So the historical framing, the ranch book has this huge revelation about Lucifer and the Lucifer rebellion, and when, if and when you interview Donna D'Angelo, she's very good on this subject. So the wretched book is giving you your history as well, unknown history that there was a fall of the angels, and that's in the Bible, but it's like a few lines in the Bible. Write your book gives you 100 pages about what happened to our planet. Why does our planet a place where you have. Of Hiroshima being blown up by atomic bomb. Does that happen in all inhabited planets? Do they blow up whole cities? No, it's be we're an exceptional planet, because we are one of these rare planets where the angels went to the dark side.
Greg Voisen
Okay, keep going. That happens
Byron Belitsos
with your angels? That's a very rare and very disastrous condition. So that's right, Paul gets this idea of original sin. Remember that Adam fell into sin, and because of Adam's sin, we are all biologically related to him. We're born in sin. You know, it's a symbolic way to understand why things were so dark and evil during the Roman times. I mean, it was so brutal, they would crucify hundreds of people at the same time, you know, they would and so how do you explain this kind of crime? So it was a pretty good explanation for the time, but now we need modern explanations. So part of the ranch book is to say you have a history where there's darkness, but then there's redemption, through the prophets, through Christ as the supreme teacher, also in Buddha and others in the east. We're here to straighten this out. This is an off planet problem. It was the source from off planet beings. So now is the correcting time, when you're ready. We now have a foundational text. You ranch a book, and we're going to, and we're going to, we're going to explain to you why you had the Holocaust, why you had all these wars that are destructive. That's because at the seat of this is something Paul calls original sin. But we're telling you that it is a kind of a collapse of the angelic host of your planet. That's that's a complicated thing to explain. Okay, yeah, but yeah, more than that. The other part of this is the the theological part, which is that deity is not just this absolute thing that just sits there. Deity is evolving with you. Is walking with us. The mistakes that we make are incorporated into a lot of the heart of deity. That's because of love. It's like your parents. Your parents know your life history better than you well. Dee, dee knows your life history better than you do, so all of these errors and all these the evil things that you do, admittedly, are in the divine heart and absorbed in it, but are part of the evolution. So that's how we can explain evil and sin, is that we're evolving and making mistakes, but we're able to heal and redeem ourselves. That's a different idea than than what the Church teaches. Yeah,
Greg Voisen
that's a good explanation. Actually, it was great. I'm an off the wall question, you know, I think I've, I've I've heard and I haven't Googled this, but there's obviously a decline in, uh, let's just call it people heading toward Christianity or heading toward any of these religions. Mean religion, but people are looking for a spiritual path. Obviously, they're seeking out people like you and Ken Wilber and all kinds of other people to give them a better explanation. Now, there's people that are atheist, right? They have no belief in God at all, right? Agnostic, you know. But the point would be is, Do you believe this might be a text for somebody like that who is literally like saying, Hey, I don't believe anything you guys have, but I would like to know what the scholars potentially because you're saying, Hey, here's some scholarly wisdom as you've climbed up this wall, as you said, to prove this over the last 40 plus years, right? And that's just you. That's not everything else that's been going on with the Urantia foundation. So one of the places that they want to go is to your website, which we're going to put a link. But they also could go to Urantia foundation. We'll put a link to that as well. If they want to really take a deeper dive. Would that be appropriate?
Byron Belitsos
Your redshirt.org is, is making organization? Yeah. And, okay, really, quite, quite amazing stuff, but, yeah, but the you know, so what to the original question, I think was more about,
Greg Voisen
well, we were talking about non religious right, yes, exactly,
Byron Belitsos
yeah, yeah. So, so the way I see it is two. There are two parts to that. One part of the science. Smart people went to college, for example, they studied science, right? So then somebody says, Well, you got to read the Bible. But the Bible has no science. It's completely out of date. Cosmologically. I really were like, kind of crazy, right? Yeah, yeah. And so, you know, a smart person is going to say, look, is he going to build my religion on something like that? That has, that's, has. They didn't even know the earth, one around the sun. They didn't even know there was biological evolution that that can't fly. That's one and two is that the the rigidity of the theology of that period is just from that time and back then, they didn't have the expensive view of of things. So why would they? Why would they embrace something that is so rigid and so narrow, even though it's got some great truths in it? Why would this one intelligent young kid in college, you know, want to do that, unless it was just something forced on them. So that was,
Greg Voisen
like, it's like any religion. I mean, I was speaking with a lady the other day that lives in Utah about Mormonism, you know, and it's just when you when you look at how the teachings go from generation to generation to generation, because that's the way the kids were brought up right now, I have nothing evil to say about Mormonism. I'm basically just saying it's another religion that's out there that can't be explained. Many things can't be explained, and so you're at least trying to explain, right in a scholarly way and prove, and I think that's important, especially in today's age where we do rely a lot on science, versus just, oh, a lot of people say, woo, woo, right. That's like, Where's the proof? So let me ask you this, what do you hope readers will take away from your book, reasons and revelation in terms of their personal spiritual journeys? And that's where I was going with this. You know, we have people out there at the far spectrum who are going to listen to my podcast and they're going to go to it, or you're going to have people that are really deep Christians in the middle of the road, and then you're going to have people that are really into just some very, very far kind of, hey, even the Urantia isn't enough. We need we need more, right? It's and from an explanatory standpoint. So what would you want? How would you want people to take pick up your book and say, hey, if I read this, it's going to give me a new perspective. What new perspective Do you believe they're going to get from your book?
Byron Belitsos
It's a global but it's galactic, really cosmic. It's a cosmic perspective. So for example, we have this thing called Christian nationalism right now. It's a very big movement. It's, you know, everything's about our nation, and we gotta, you know, we gotta be good patriots. And the Bible is connected to that, yeah. And there's a political movement around that, okay, so this is a big error. This is a, you know, very big implications, yeah. And so it really, what we need is global Christianity, global Buddhism, global, you know, rather than national. So what happened in India recently, Craig, they're getting into a nationalist version of Hinduism, right? That's guy took over the country, and they're beginning to to even blow up mosques they're discriminating against because it became nationalist. We can't have that in the modern age. We will dissolve into warfare unless there's a global view. But a better way to get the global view is look at it from the standpoint of the galaxy, looking down on. This is just one planet. It has a lot of problems, but up here in the galaxy, we know you and we love you, and we're trying to reach you. That's why we're sending extraterrestrials. That's why we're sending the Course in Miracles. We're sending all these things to update you and upgrade you from archaic scriptures, which are very good. Don't forget, there's a tradition of Christianity That's brilliant, Full of Wisdom. But it's now time to come into the post modern and as Ken would say, the integral age, whereas is it, cosmology has to be integrated with your spirituality, otherwise, you just fall into these ancient patterns which work. That's why we have this huge war in Gaza between, you know, Jews and Muslims.
Greg Voisen
Well, you know, there's a spiritual leader on this planet right now that is as best for as long as I can remember, and his name is the Dalai Lama, that the only thing that's going to actually resolve all of our conflicts is going to be compassion. You know, I have a nonprofit called compassionate communications, right? That's partially why I do this show and and it is that, you know, you have to. Have compassion for your fellow soul to actually see their point of view. I didn't say empathy, I said compassion. So there's a big difference in my estimation between the two, and I believe his simple statement is really very true, because all this divisiveness that we have is a result of us standing in an ego that says we're right, you're wrong, right, and getting through that now, I mean, you and I could probably have a conversation for an hour, but we don't have that much time about how that all works. But what I would like you to address and kind of wrapping things up for this interview, is your personal advice that you could sim give someone regarding the Urantia Book and your book, reason and revelation, who might be kind of daunted by its complexity, right? We're talking about a lot of complex things here, and how does this your book, reason and Revelation serve as a guide to make it simple for everybody's been listening to us for the last 40 minutes or so. It's like, okay, I get it. This is a whole new reboot. We know where it came from. We get that all these scholars have written papers, and it's now more and more proof that what they're talking about is real and can be more proven. What would you tell them about getting through all of this complexity and challenge?
Byron Belitsos
We give them those kind of the simple gospel as updated in the rancho book, that Jesus was not a Christian. Okay, that's Jesus. Was a universal human sent to us from higher realms, and that Christianity has wisdom, but now we need a global view of this person. He's not a Christian. He's a global teacher, and his teaching is not that I resurrected. I was crucified or resurrected, and my blood redeemed you. That is a human teaching. The real teaching is, God is your Father and Mother loves you, and because he's creator, she's creator of all humans, you are to become unified as one human family. That's what his teaching actually is. It actually is there in the New Testament, but it's covered up by these human doctrines. So we're going to come back to this thing. It's a universal teaching. It's pretty much the same teaching as Buddhism, except that it's a loving father and mother. Buddhism doesn't really have that exactly, but, right? But that if this is true, if there is this omnipresent, all loving Father, Mother, what are the implications for peace on on the planet? Well, you are an agent of peace. Well, how do you become one? It's by opening to this presence. And by the way, I didn't get across that the interior life is changed by the Urantia Book because of its teaching that there's a presence of like a fragment of God in each person. Okay, yeah, but really the teaching of Buddhism, right? The Buddha natures within each person. So, but open to that an egocentric person cannot open to its influence because its influence is very gentle. So this is the God The Gospel is, I'm within you, I'm around you, and I love you, and you're all brethren and sisters and brothers in one big planet. And stop the wars, stop the division, because you're one one humanity, and soon you're being you'll be encountering other planets. I mean, you already are encountering other other worlds and extraterrestrials, and that you will have to learn to be diplomats to the galaxy. And, well, I
Greg Voisen
think, I think many of these wars that you mentioned earlier, the Ukrainian war, the war at Gaza and Israel, the fighting that goes on is again driven around, I'm just going to say, in many cases, it's a retribution for something that somebody believes should happen as a result of something that happened to them. Now, it I see this happen in courtrooms where somebody killed another person. Now we're getting to the essence and the piece, the people where the family, where it happened, they forgave. We haven't even talked about forgiveness, but I'm going to say something here. You know, in reality, for people to actually make this shift, there's got to be a lot of forgiveness that goes on, and that is a really challenging place for people to get. Right? Because they're, I'm just going to say their humanness and their ego gets in the way of them forgiving. They're like, No, it's retribution. I'm going to go tact all those people in Palestine, because they killed our people over here. And we whatever you want to go on, it's, it's always the same story, right? By right?
Byron Belitsos
Paul, it's a story of ego, but, yeah, but, but that's the psychology of but there's another part of that ego also is supported by an incorrect cosmology and by an incorrect idea of history, and by by archaic scriptures, for example, the Old Testament that says these, this particular people should, should own this land in Israel that was given to them by God 4000 years ago. That is archaic, mythic concept that they are basing this thing on. So we need a correction. And you read your book, there's so many pieces it takes on that issue too. What was Judaism and how, how it went off the rails, so to speak.
Greg Voisen
Well, I'm going to encourage the listeners seriously. You gave us the website, and I'm going to repeat it again. It's rodaninstitute.org, for all of you who've been listening, this is where the research education and ministries are fostering the religion of the future. And I think that if somebody has an open mind and really just wants to explore, go there and leave your information right. Get this book. It's not expensive. We're going to put a link to it on Amazon, reason and Revelation, and reach out to Byron. He's available, right? He'll, he'll answer his email, or somebody will, but, but definitely, if you have an interest in this, then definitely make a connection with Byron. We'll put the information there. So you do, when you put the information in at Rodin Institute, it's probably going to go to Byron anyway.
Byron Belitsos
Yeah, it's going to go to me. And this is non-commercial. If you want get a PDF for free, I'll just email it to it's not this, not we're on a mission to correct these things that are causing a collapse of our civilization.
Greg Voisen
Well, the essays are in here. They they just buy this book. You're going to get a big dose. And then, if you want more, and you want to follow it right, reach out to Byron or an institute.org Yeah, reach out to him and and check him out. Check out his other books too, because they're all there. We were speaking about one that you mentioned. That was just one right here, truths about evil, sin and the demonic. There's another one. So you know these two books, your thumbs up. And so, from an Eastern philosophy to a man who's teaching people about how to reboot their own beliefs. Namaste to you, my friend, the guy he says they've gotten you. So you enjoy the rest of your morning, and thanks so much for being on Inside Personal Growth.
Byron Belitsos
Thank you. Thumbs up for you, Greg. You've been doing this a long time, and you found me out of the blue. I very much appreciate.
Greg Voisen
Oh and I appreciate you. We don't talk enough. We should talk a lot more, and I'm going to get into this myself and really take a deep dive. So thank you so much for this.
Byron Belitsos
Thank you, my friend. Be well. God bless you.
Greg Voisen
God bless you.
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Inside Personal Growth with Greg Voisen · Podcast 1155: Exploring Stromer E-Bikes with Matti RajakyläIn our latest podcast episode, we had the privilege of speaking with Matti Rajakylä, who shared his insights on Stromer Bikes and their innovative approach to electric transportation. Stromer, a leading brand in the e-bike industry, is transforming the way we think about urban commuting by blending sleek design, powerful performance, and advanced technology. During our conversation, Matti discussed how Stromer is reshaping modern transportation, offering a more sustainable and efficient alternative to traditional modes of travel.
At the core of Stromer’s vision is the desire to revolutionize urban mobility. With increasing concerns around traffic congestion, air pollution, and environmental sustainability, Stromer bikes have positioned themselves as a solution to these pressing issues. The company is committed to creating an enjoyable and eco-friendly commuting experience, providing a practical alternative to cars and public transportation.
One of the key elements Matti emphasized was the performance of Stromer bikes. These high-speed electric bikes, known as S-Pedelecs, are designed to handle long commutes with ease, offering a top speed of 45 km/h (28 mph) and an impressive range. This makes Stromer bikes an ideal choice for those looking to reduce their reliance on cars without sacrificing the convenience or speed needed for urban travel.
What sets Stromer apart is its integration of cutting-edge technology. The Stromer OMNI app allows riders to connect with their bike in a way that enhances both security and convenience. From tracking the bike’s location to monitoring battery life and performance data, the app puts the control in the rider’s hands. This smart connectivity also adds an extra layer of security, with features like remote locking and unlocking, ensuring peace of mind for riders in busy urban environments.
Matti also spoke about Stromer’s commitment to sustainability, which is reflected in every aspect of their design and manufacturing process. E-bikes are inherently a greener choice, reducing carbon emissions and alleviating traffic congestion. Stromer’s focus on using high-quality, durable materials ensures that their bikes not only perform at a high level but also last longer, minimizing waste and environmental impact.
As Matti discussed, the future of urban transportation is shifting, and e-bikes like those produced by Stromer are at the forefront of this change. With growing interest in greener, faster, and more efficient commuting options, electric bikes are becoming a go-to solution for city dwellers. In cities across Europe, e-bikes are already a common sight, and Matti sees this trend continuing to grow globally as more people embrace the benefits of electric transportation.
Stromer bikes are more than just a tool for getting around—they represent a lifestyle choice for those seeking a more connected, eco-conscious, and efficient way of navigating the city. Whether you’re looking to reduce your carbon footprint, bypass traffic, or simply enjoy a smoother ride to work, Stromer offers a compelling solution that combines sustainability with performance.
Matti’s insights during the podcast provided a deeper understanding of Stromer’s mission and the future of electric transportation. As cities become more crowded and the need for sustainable solutions increases, it’s clear that companies like Stromer will play a crucial role in shaping the future of urban mobility. For those interested in learning more, you can visit Stromer’s website at Stromer Bikes and explore their innovative range of products designed to make commuting smarter and more sustainable.
You may also refer to the transcripts below for the full transciption (not edited) of the interview.
Interview Transcipt -Not EditedEmailDownloadNew TabGreg Voisen
Well, welcome back to another episode of Inside Personal Growth. Matti, I don't really know exactly what episode this is going to be. The last one I looked at was 1050 over 17 years. So, it's a lot of podcasts on a lot of subjects, but all my listeners know that my focus on health, wellness and longevity has been there. We have a whole series on wellness and wellbeing, and today's episode with Matti. And Matti, I don't want to mess up your last name, so you say it because he's from Finland.
Matti Rajakylä
Rajakyla. Rajakyla is the last name. You can think of the j in the middle as the y, so they might be a little bit easier for you to pronounce.
Greg Voisen
Okay Rajakyla, so Matti is the North American General Manager, manager for Stormer Bikes. And as people can see, I'm wearing one of the t-shirts. And you're probably wondering, so what's the connection here? I've found them through doing some searches and found out what a high-quality bicycle, e bike, they were making, and was being made in Switzerland and distributed all throughout Europe and now the United States. And I decided I wanted to get involved in a way that I could help bring this to I'm going to just call it the business, the heartbeat of America, America's business and corporations. And so I helped Matti think through a program for corporate wellness, which we're going to be talking about a little bit today, the bicycle itself, and about Matti's background. So many let's just kind of start this out. People know it's about an E bike. They know that it's that it's a really, really well made e bike. If you look it up, we'll put links on this podcast to their website as well. Tell us a little bit about you, how you got here, and even more importantly, what uh, really made me intrigued about you was some of your personal background in spirituality. Now, so what? So I don't freak out my listeners, we have a segment on spirituality in this show. So this isn't unusual, because we cover four topics. We cover business, personal growth, wellness and spirituality. And Mattie has a really good story, and I'd love for him to incorporate that. And then the second part of that question Matty is, you know, how did you move from where you were to coming to work for this company, which isn't a huge company, but it's a pretty decent sized company in Switzerland, representing e bikes here in the United States.
Matti Rajakylä
Well, Greg, thanks for having me. I'm happy to be here. And so starting probably off with the early 2000s my carrier at that time was in pro sports. I was a professional swimmer, so I attended 2004 2008 Olympics. So that's kind of like my starting point for everything that has come to fruition to these days, I would say that I retired, retired from my from my swimming career after the Beijing Olympics, and at that point I was pretty burned out. Burned out in the sense that I always had these dreams of achieving high goals in my in my sports, and always when achieving them, I was not satisfied with everything that I achieved. So there was, I would say that there was a fearful discontentment about my achievements. I was always wanting for more and more, and to put it simply, I was not happy, and I always have this questioning mind, I would say, a very curious mind that I've always want to figure out what's going on externally and internally. And obviously that led me to all of the places. Basically led me to India. And I found an ashram after my after my swimming, I found an ashram in in South India. And for an athlete, enemy, disciplined life, lifestyle, and then you know, going deeper into life's questions and what is truly important about your life and how to find happiness in this life, no matter what is the circumstances or the exterior circumstances that you. I'd have you might be the richest person in the world, you might be the most successful athlete and you might be the poorest person in the world. At the same time we're all striving for happens. So that thing can
Greg Voisen
Also, it's you say this, but it's kind of what we're longing for, I think, meaning peace, meaning peace and happiness. Now, you know, I can insert in here that no matter how many things you buy, they're never going to fulfill your happiness. So the better house, the better car. Happiness is an inside job. No one does it for you. You learned that in the ashram. And the reason I'm inserting arms is because the whether it's an E bike or a regular bike, it doesn't matter. The thing here is, for our listeners, including the corporate listeners today, is that there is so much a sense of joy and happiness when you get outside, you just get outside. And I wanted to insert this because the more people spend some time outside, the better off they are, right?
Matti Rajakylä
Yeah, exactly. And then. And essentially that that kind of, like, I needed to find this eternal happiness in order to I would not function in the world. But, you know, like to bring that out for the world, and that fast forward to 2022 I was, I was doing, you know, coaching jobs. I had my own business that I was running, and then I was out of really nowhere, asked to do this work for sturmber. So, the CEO asked me that, hey, do you want to join the company? And starting, started running the North America because they had a good experience with experiences hiring ex athletes. And I said, I don't really know anything about the industry but, but I don't really know anything. He's basically said that, okay, I don't care about that. I just need somebody I can trust you learn everything else. So I've been here for two years now, and it's, I'm super excited about, especially, first of all, the product that we have. It's, I want to work for a company that has those core values that we're offering, obviously, you know, making people commute more, being sustainable and improving people's health and wellbeing, and, and, and it's been just a fantastic pride. And as I said, the product is amazing, so it's easy for me to stand behind that.
Greg Voisen
Well, obviously, when values are aligned, people are more I'm going to say enthusiastic number one. Number two, there's much more engagement. And I find that you're super engaged with this process, and it's one of the reasons that I enjoy partnering with you on this, this new endeavor. Now you know, store bikes has gained quite a reputation for high performance and innovative design. Anybody out there looking just go to www, S, T, R, O, M, E, R, bikes.com, or bike you do either or, and you'll get there. And I'd like for you to share those core values that drive Stormers approach to creating this E bike. The gentleman that founded the company was obviously an engineer and had spent toiled hours and hours around designing bikes and figuring out how to do this and how to keep doing it better, and particularly the next part of this question is really the company's core values around promoting health and wellness. I think this is as important as how much the bike is engineered, you know, how well it engineered. So could you comment on that? Because you've been around all the founders, the people, the engineers, the designers, the people in the factory. You get it from the ground floor up. I can't say that I have, but I will one day.
Matti Rajakylä
Well, if you I mean, first, what we need to kind of look into is that, what is tremor everything? Think that's just an E bike, but we always think that Sturmer is a vehicle. We're not even thinking that, okay. We're going against other bike companies. We are not competing with specialized Trek or even though that we might be in the same space, like bike shops and things like that. But what we really want to always, our main message that we want to give is that sturmber is a vehicle. It's a replacement of your car, in some sense, and that's where we that's what we're trying to build. It's obviously, you see, the design is gorgeous. If you look at the bike that's being one of our DNA. So we always talk about this tremor DNA. There's five pillars to it. We have the design we won multiple design awards on, on, on all of our, all of our models, and always keep on learning them. Oh, it's tremor again. And then the the other big part. Artist, connectivity of our bikes. All of our bikes are interconnected. We all. They all have an inbuilt computer in them that has a 4j chip in and that you can do, track the bikes, and you can track the mileage and and see all these things. And you can control everything, what's going on in the bike. And then range being one of them, our bikes go up to 110 120 mile miles range, and then safety being one part of them. Because obviously, now the E bike market these days is, is, is almost like a Wild West, especially in the US. Everybody's flooding into the market. There's all kinds of product, but Sturmer has been around since 2009 we've been building bikes and, and we have a lot of experience, and our core and those five different pillars are kind of like the core values of the company as well. We want to make riding bikes, obviously fun, but that at the same time you have the sustainability goals, you have the wellness goals that you want to also target, and and those are actually in the core of the whole Holstrom or product,
Greg Voisen
very well said. And I think that for again, the listeners, whether you're an individual listener listening to this, or you're in corporate America, or you have a company who would like to impress on you that this program, that we've quoted, this wellness program to help improve employees overall well being. So when you improve well being, you improve productivity, and you also improve higher levels of satisfaction, you reduce turnover. So the investment in the bike is not just an investment in a bike, it's an investment in truly, all these intrinsic things that are going on. Because if you took a balance sheet and if you just said, Well, this was the cost of the bike, we'll know you have other costs in your business. And I want to impress this upon people, because there used to be formulas around the human life value. In other words, what was an employee worth? The employee is worth an investment like this. And call this a bit of a commercial but I think I've been around on the planet long enough that it's really important to make these investments. So how do you see the stronger bikes fitting into a corporate wellness strategy, and what results have you seen from companies that maybe have adopted it in if, if any at this point, that's one and then two. I'd like to point out to some of the naysayers about electric bikes or E bikes, that if you type in almost anywhere you're going to find NIH studies, you're going to find studies all over that they found just increasing the heart rate even marginally on for an over an extended period of time is actually just as good as running. You know, a full on 8080, spread to get your heart rate at, you know, 150 beats a minute, right? So it's been proven that E bikes because there are people out there that don't believe that. They go, Oh, well, people aren't getting enough exercise. If they were commuting to work, they would be getting exercise. So my question to you is, how do you see it fitting in, and what have you seen, if anything? Matti, with relation to companies who are adopting these programs. We know Google has one. We know LinkedIn has one. We know many companies have them. What would you tell our listeners?
Matti Rajakylä
Well, starting from, from, from, basically like, okay, the argument that the E bike doesn't provide you an exercise. It gets you moving and and it's always, it's, it's, it's, it's not like a motorcycle. So you always have to remember, if you've never ridden an E bike, you still get a little bit of an exercise. I would, I would argue that if you do a trip to, let's say, call it five miles, that it's usually an average commute for for Americans, and they usually do that with the car, even if you replace that twice or three times a week and try to do that, there's there's a significant increase for your wellness, any exercise, anything that you do to move your body, get out of your office or get out of your Car. There is so much of data that can prove, even if it's a low heart rate, it doesn't need to be vigorous activity to get you moving and and that the benefits for your physical and mental well being are tremendous. And then answer to your second question is that, do I have any data or experience of other companies doing it. Unfortunately, I don't have exact data. However, in in Europe, we have bike leasing programs of all kinds, and then many of the companies are using that as an employee benefit. And I can do a little bit of name dropping here, Rolex being one of them. So everybody. Knows the prestige Swiss swatch company. Their CEO is a is a huge fan of Sturmer. He's he's writing and commuting to work almost on a daily basis, basis with this termer. And what he ended up, ended up doing is that he they have a parking garage at their main headquarters and office, and he replaced not all of it, but big chunk of the parking garage to only store e bikes into that area. So he's encouraging him his employees, to to ride a bike to work. And there are so many benefits, physical and mental. And now I also know that the practical side of I've talked to some of the companies here in the in the Bay Area where I live, and they are facing a big commuting lady issue now that they have to solve many problems in terms of people commuting, let's say, from San Francisco to Silicon Valley. And they are using, obviously, busses. They are using Lyft and Uber credits for their employees, and then the other situation that they're also going to end up for people who are driving into the place that they have to build extra parking structures. But if you think of those kinds of problems, I have one solution, an E bike people, if they're right to work. And that investment, that the investment they would need to build, to put into building a new parking structure. Why don't they just buy a buy or a lease a fleet of E bikes, and try to encourage their employees to do that? I know that they are actively working to that, but in in the US especially, it has to be a cultured change. But I know that slowly, this change is coming, and people are understanding more and more there's a lot of benefits, not only monetary, but also intangible benefits for people that would write anybody,
Greg Voisen
yeah, we are seeing it, and as you said, it is being adopted slowly, and thus The purpose for this podcast. So for anybody who's listening out there, obviously, who gets linked to this podcast, we're trying to inform you about the benefits. We understand the benefits of it. And another thing I want to talk about, because in many cultures you were talking about in Germany and in Belgium and places where people are replacing their cars, we obviously haven't done that yet, here, yet here, because sometimes, because of the terrain, the distances, the cities aren't laid out the same. All kinds of you could say, all kinds of reasons, but believe me, in most of the cities that we're addressing here, San Diego, Los Angeles, Orange County, San Francisco, all across the United States, there are hubs, and if you're within any area, close to the hub or close to your work, because usually your work is in one of those hubs, and E bike is a great solution. The other thing is, sustainability is becoming more of an increasing focus and important to corporate cultures, right? So everybody's trying to reduce their carbon footprint, right? We have initiatives here in the United States and around around cars. How many electric cars? What's going to happen? How do store bikes contribute to the company's sustainability goals? And how does this align in your estimation? I mean, because it's, to me, it's just perfect with corporate wellness, employee wellness in particular.
Matti Rajakylä
So nice thing about Trevor is that we can, we can track our riders data. As I said, every bike has this indoor computer on them. And up to this point, basically, I think, we started tracking. That was in 2014 we had this new integration of this, of this computer to our bike. And from from 2014 we had, we have now total of 350 million miles, sorry, kilometers written on a Stromer. So a little over 200 basically 200 200 mile, miles. And if and most of the users, and because Strummer is still a pretty small player in the US, but most of the US users that we we collected data from, they are writing from Monday to Friday. So they are clearly commuters, so five times a week, and if they do around, I think the average, average, uh, distance per day that they are writing is around 20
Greg Voisen
miles, yeah, 10 miles.
Matti Rajakylä
We made 10 miles. Yeah, yeah, exactly. So we did. We did a calculation of how much of CO two reduction is that compared to a car. And basically, on an annual basis, if you do that right, five, three to five times a week, you have an. Annual reduction of 1.4 tons of CO two emissions. So that's a clear indication that, obviously, if you ride an E bike instead of a car, there is a clear benefit to your sustainability goals.
Greg Voisen
Yeah, it is. It's a awful good one. And you know, it's an just another reason. So, okay, I So, let me just start all over here. Now, Matti, I understand that the amount of CO two emissions reduced has been pretty substantial since 2009 you started keeping track of this, and it's the there's an omni computer, and I want to repeat for my customers who potentially would be customers, that there's a computer that not only tracks, it, locks, it, GPS, everything. The other factor is, is this whole leasing program you have up with sweet spot. And, you know, because the bikes are exceptionally well made and cost a little bit more, you've created this whole program with sweet spot, which is quite in enticing for somebody to actually a company and or an individual to actually do it. Can you explain the reason why you went down the road with sweet spot and what the success has been so far in the US with actual leasings, or even in Europe at this point, as you see people leasing bikes and then having an option to really turn those bikes in after two years and get a whole new model?
Matti Rajakylä
Well, obviously, how we What was the inspiration for that? I always look at Europe, because Europe, in in this industry, it's, it's, it's ahead of the game. The regulation is better, and whatever they are doing is, is, is, you know, five to 10 years ahead of what's going on in the US. So that's probably 60 like Belgium is our biggest market where people, people are commuting, and around 60% of all of our sales in that market is leasing. There's a lot of corporations that offers subsidies for their employees that they will pay for the lease. There's a lot of government incentives for people to lease, and then they, basically, the regular consumer ends up actually paying, really almost nothing for a bike and and those are, I know that those things are coming to the US, and there are already some companies, so I just wanted to kind of move towards that direction that how do we people always look at the price tag of an E bike, and our business tremor is obviously on the higher end of that, but how do we make it in that it's attractive for people to actually jump on a stremmer? So we partnered with the company called this this sweet spot, and it's one of the first companies in the US that are doing bike leasing. And instead of paying 4000 to 14,000 for a Sturmer, you can get a Sturmer just around 68 or under, just under $70, a month to use it, you can sign up for a one year, two year or three year lease, and that has an insurance included theft, the theft and crash insurance included in that lease. So it's a fantastic option, and we have couple of companies that actually started adopting that as well. We have one little town, actually, in in Georgia that that brought some bikes in just a few months ago, and and they have been very excited. And we have talks with police departments, fire departments and and other, you know, communities that we are talking and some other companies that we're talking right now about that leasing. So it is a fantastic way of having people to not commit to a bike if they don't necessarily want to commit to a bike or pay a pay a bigger price for a bike, and after two years, as I said, you can replace the bike, or you can just buy it out. So I just wanted to bring this into
Greg Voisen
that. I think Matti it. It reduces the barrier to entry for both an individual and for a corporation, because corporation can be seats as well, because at least 10 of them, or 12 of them, or whatever. That's my point. But the the point is, too, is that when you do lease for a business, there are tax incentives. So one of the tax incentives is a lease is a write off. The other thing, it could go under employee benefits. So I want to talk about that because there is this kind of growing trend of. Companies offering incentives, and you're seeing it. You're saying you're working with cities and municipalities as well to bring the bikes in, like you did in Georgia, which is great. I'd love to see that in more and more cities. What advice would you give to businesses out there that are looking to incorporate an E bro e bike program into their employee benefit plan. So in other words, hey, we've got this benefit. You're going to get, obviously, a 401, K, you're going to get medical insurance. You're going to get this, this and this. But the key now is the expansion of those benefits and how we actually help them design it
Matti Rajakylä
well. I mean, the thing is that always you have to look into that. Obviously, everybody's looking into the costs. If you look at your health insurance costs, or if, if your employees are healthier, that's directly going to correlate to the cost that you're actually paying for their health insurance and and then again, wellness, physical wellness or mental wellness. That is something that is not you don't see it in the next quarter. You don't probably see it in the next year, but over a period of time, you start seeing that in your health insurance costs or whatever are the costs that companies are incurring, those are going to be seen after a period of time.
Greg Voisen
Yeah. So we are aware that programs like these and their statistical analysis that proves, not just, you know, hearsay, that literally having a regular E bike program where people are commuting to work, and it is three times a week that literally, that actually reduces the overall claims cost and the claims overall to the company, which could be for anything from diabetes to heart disease to you name it, that really we want to help reduce and so we know these EBO bike programs are available, and we've made them affordable enough through The leasing programs that anyone listening to this, please contact me. I'm your contact for this. I'd be happy to get you more information about not only the leasing, but also the bikes themselves to make some decisions. And if you're an individual thinking about a bicycle, please reach out to me as well any bike, because we do it. Now we're seeing this massive flood of E bikes coming into the United States, many of them from obviously, Taiwan, Korea, China, all over the place. You're not seeing as many come in from Switzerland. Okay, it's just not the case. But looking ahead, what innovations are trends? Because I was at the CES show, and I tell you, I saw more e bikes there than I've seen in my life, which just really surprised me and everybody and their brother trying to get into it. But I look at really, the trends in technology, the trends in design, the trends in actual the materials that they're being made of, right? To make them lighter, because e bikes normally are pretty heavy. Being heavy, they don't get as much range. What do you think will further support the integration of the Stormer e bike into corporate wellness programs? And what are the trends that you are seeing, because you're out there all the time seeing your competitors, models and what's going on.
Matti Rajakylä
Well, in terms of innovation, obviously, cargo bikes are a big thing right now, but I know, like everybody's like, stremmer is always ahead of the game in many sense that we were the first bite to integrate connectivity. So we're for sure that's going to happen in the future. Even more connectivity being being big part of it, like it can have GPS tracking Now we already in the latest model, the SD five that we just released this year is that it has a Sturmer sound, and it was just a test that we would just wanted to see that what can we do with the Sturmer sound? I cannot do any too many reveals right now, but I mean, I'm hoping that we can integrate GPS technology and then that integrate that with the Shermer sound. Maybe you won't see the turn right here, but it would give you a sound when you actually have a map on your on your computer, on the bike, and then you can, you know, have have some sort of a sound that gives you a signal to turn or go right, or then all these things that's that's probably being one thing in terms of the. The heaviness and the bulkiness. I don't know if there's anything that we can do right now, other than the battery technology. Solid State battery being a hot topic in the car industry, and Sturmer, again, was the first one that actually introduced that prototype of that in the last 2023 Eurobike. The technology is coming for sure, and that will make the battery technology even obviously, quicker to charge, and also it makes it a little bit lighter and also a lot more reliable in terms of potential risk of fire, for example. Now, at this point, the technologies are very, pretty expensive, so it doesn't really make sense right now, but I know for sure that it's coming in the next let's call it five years. So those are the innovations that we're working on right now.
Greg Voisen
But also, can I add that it's also a reason for people to consider leasing, because what happens is the bikes get recycled, obviously, but it at at two years, your one year, two year or three year, you can turn this bike over and any new technology, then lease another new bike from us. And I think that's important to remember, there aren't many companies out there that are leasing bicycles. Okay, yeah, and it's not just because of our price. It's because we'd really like to have everybody be able to do this and reduce the barrier to entry. I mean, we have prices as low as just below $3,000 as you said, and moving all the way up to $13,000 but so the point is, is that there's enough models. I want everybody who is listening and is still listening, www.stromerbike or bikes.com. There you can learn more about the bike please reach out to me, because I can actually direct you, and I can help you set up a corporate e Bike Program, wellness e bike program. And Matti, is there anything you'd like to leave the listeners with today that are either business owners that might be listening or wellness officers or individuals that are out there that you'd want them to know about Stormer bikes and the quality of the bike and or the availability of this product here now in the United States, and the ability to access it so much, I would say, easily, having this sweet spot leasing program.
Matti Rajakylä
I would just like to say that it's people, many times, especially in this car country, we are hesitant to make a move out of our comfort zone or out of our habits, but I would just say that, go for it. I'm coming from Europe. I'm from Finland, and I always used to ride bikes anywhere I would go, and that is actually a way of transportation. We know that there's there's around everybody in the US who is driving a car, commuting the work. 80% of those people, the commute is less than five miles. Less than five miles, think of the benefits of riding your bike, not even every single day, but let's call it three times a week. You would ride your bike, you would say set money, you would say time. In most cases, especially if you live in an urban area, you would be healthier, physical and mental. And actually, that investment that you put in the bike, whether it's a lease or buying a bike, it's well, well worth it.
Greg Voisen
And I'll add you'll save the environment to the tune of one point whatever billion the emissions were that you quoted. So I think there's more reasons to do this than to not do it. And so want to encourage everybody again, reach out to me. You can reach out to me through the podcast. You'll definitely know how to reach me. And Matti, I want to thank you for being on the show, taking this time to speak with our audience about the benefits of a corporate e Bike Program, also just the overall benefits of the Stormer brand and the quality that you're bringing to the US for being make made available to people, and thanks for being on the show, and Thanks for spending this time, namaste. To you.
Matti Rajakylä
Absolutely. Namaste. Thank you.
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Inside Personal Growth with Greg Voisen · Podcast 1154: Why Simple Wins: Escape the Complexity Trap and Get to Work That MattersIn this episode of our podcast, we had the pleasure of hosting Lisa Bodell, a globally recognized futurist and an authority on simplification in the corporate world. Lisa is not only the CEO of FutureThink but also an acclaimed author whose latest book, “Why Simple Wins: Escape the Complexity Trap and Get to Work That Matters,” serves as a crucial manual for today’s business leaders. We explored the core message of her book—that simplicity is not just a design principle but a strategic advantage that can lead to more meaningful, impactful work.
Lisa Bodell’s “Why Simple Wins” confronts the pervasive issue of workplace complexity that stifles innovation and productivity. In our discussion, Lisa emphasized how routine tasks such as emails, meetings, and reports consume disproportionate amounts of time, which could instead be directed towards more value-adding activities. Her book introduces practical strategies to eliminate these redundancies, urging leaders to champion simplicity to enhance their company’s culture and operational efficiency.
The principles of simplification Lisa discusses are both actionable and transformative. They encourage a cultural shift towards reducing unnecessary workload, which in turn can boost employee engagement and customer satisfaction. Her approach isn’t about doing less for the sake of minimalism but focusing on what truly adds value to the organization. During the podcast, Lisa shared insights on how making simplification a habit can lead to significant improvements in productivity and innovation.
Lisa Bodell’s expertise extends beyond her writing. As a speaker and consultant, she has influenced major corporations like Bloomberg and Lockheed Martin, advocating for innovative practices that embrace future-ready leadership. Her work has been recognized globally, with her contributions to forums like the World Economic Forum highlighting her impact on modern business practices. Lisa’s approach to simplification as discussed in “Why Simple Wins” is a testament to her commitment to fostering environments where creativity and efficiency thrive.
Conclusion:
For anyone looking to navigate the complexities of modern corporate environments and drive substantial change, Lisa Bodell’s “Why Simple Wins” is an indispensable resource. This book not only explores the “what” and “why” of simplification but also provides the “how,” making it a practical guide for implementing lasting changes that matter. Dive into the book to discover how you can transform everyday corporate challenges into opportunities for growth and innovation.
You may also refer to the transcripts below for the full transciption (not edited) of the interview.
Interview Transcipt -Not EditedEmailDownloadNew TabGreg Voisen
Welcome back to Inside Personal Growth. Now, Lisa, I don't know what episode this is going to be, because the last one was 1150 so the reality is, we might be 1000 who knows 200 but I have funny Lisa Bodell on the line with me, and you're joining me from, if I remember correct only get don't let me get it wrong. Tell me where you are joining me from.
Lisa Bodell
I Westchester, just outside of New York.
Greg Voisen
Okay, Westchester and this book is "Why Simple Wins", that's it and the subtitle is "Escape the Complexity Trap and Get to Work That Matters". More importantly, get to thinking about what matters as well. I think sometimes we gloss over it and just think, all right, let's just go to work. But I'm going to tell the listeners a little bit about you, Lisa, if you don't mind, because I think it sets a context for the book. And by the way, folks, the website is futurethink.com and that's f-u-t-u-r-e-t-h-i-n-k.com, great name. Don't know how you got that. She also has a toolkit for simplification that is on Amazon as well, as well as this book. But Lisa believes in the power of simplification. Obviously, she is the founder and CEO of FutureThink, a company that uses simple techniques to help organizations embrace change and increase their capabilities for innovation. She brings her compelling message to more 100,000 people a year, showing them how to eliminate mundane and unnecessary tasks from their everyday routines. She's transformed teams within organizations like Google, narvis, adventure, Accenture and more, drawing on practical Midwestern upbringing and entrepreneur background. She's used the power of simplification to launch three successful businesses write two books. One of them is called Kill the Company. And why? Simple wins. She travels a lot. She just told me she got back from traveling all over the place, and she's on several advisory councils. And you can learn more about her@futurethink.com Well, let's get to the heart of the manor, which is really, oh, as we say, the the key to this, right? So I think sometimes people don't understand how things get so complex. Yeah, on the other hand, your book why simple wins heightens the danger of complexity in the workplace. Yet we know the workplaces are filled with complexity. What are the most common signs that you see as somebody who travels the world, speaks these companies, consults with these companies, provides them tools to get untrapped from the complexity. And how can leaders recognize these signs before it's really too late? I'm
Lisa Bodell
really glad you brought it up. You know, it's funny, because I always say we create the beast that we become a slave to. We don't realize our role in creating complexity with the best of intentions, and the signs are things like this. First of all, you have a lack of speed, an inability to get to move fast enough and meet deadlines, and usually that has to do with the volume of work. You're starting to see burnout among your team and that, and they're becoming more disengaged because they don't feel the work that they're spending their time on. Matters. The other thing you're seeing is people are organized, but they're not simplified, and so yeah, there's a lot of things that we organize. There's a lot of reliance on apps and processes and spreadsheets, but at some point you cannot spreadsheet your way out of complexity. It's a volume game. And the last thing I'll say is I see an addiction to more versus less. And what I mean by that is I know a company or a leader that's really good at focusing on what matters. When he asks people, not just what's wrong with how they work, but what can they stop doing? That's when we know that there's somebody that's not just about getting more done or urgency, but getting the right things done. So those are the kind of. Signs that we look for? Yeah, those
Greg Voisen
are the signs. You know. I relate to conversation I had with an author who just met me, who came down from Bend Oregon, and his name's Glenn van pesky, and he built an ultra-light backpacking company, which is quite successful, and many other companies. And the book is called, take less, do more. What's interesting is the lessons you find about emptying your backpack when you think about ultra light backpacking is literally the minimalism that you wanted to get as light as possible, as little as possible, right? And his whole thing is about in yours as well. How do I lighten my load? How do I get rid of some of these, this weight that I'm carrying up the mountain, because all of us seems to be carrying so much up the mountain, you know, that's packed. It weighs three times more than it really
Lisa Bodell
well, and what you're getting at, and I think he's getting at too, which is, it's separating the necessary from the unnecessary, right? And that's what we talk about. Because then people will start to say, you know, they they have a fear of letting go. It's a very human thing. They have a fear that less isn't as valuable. And they have a fear they have, like, an emotional attachment of getting rid of things. It's like a loss, and so we really have to have them separate, necessary and unnecessary. And there is necessary complexity, just like there's necessary things in your backpack, right? But what that forces you to do when you go ultralight is really pare down the things that don't add value, don't have meaning, that really are the most important things to reach your goals. And you do the same thing at work. It's the same thing with meetings. It's the same thing with how you spend your time. It's the same thing with reports. It's the same thing with clients. It really focuses on that kind of 8020, rule of what is most important, because really the currency, he's talking about backpack. So I'm talking about time. That's the difference my currency and my my backpack is time, and I want to unpack the things that aren't worth your time
Greg Voisen
well. And I think all of us has to have a checklist before we go somewhere, right? So the reality is
Lisa Bodell
no checklist. Yeah, it's not how it's and it's not about just being organized. It's being simplified, like you can organize an incredible backpack and stuff it with all kinds of stuff, but it's too much. So it's, you know,
Greg Voisen
well, people in the workplace today are dealing with the weight of the complexity, and that's why I use that analogy, because it is breaking their bets. All right, so you describe simplicity as a strategic advantage, which obviously it is. But how can companies shift their mindsets, meaning the people's mindsets inside the company, to see simplicity as not just a cost saving measure, but as a driver of innovation and growth for the company, because I think when people give something up, they actually think they're giving something away, but that's not true.
Lisa Bodell
Not true. Yeah, I like what you're saying, because I think the companies that are successful around innovation are the ones that also are successful at simplicity, because they realize this is not just about being organized, being productive, being efficient. Those are byproducts when you simplify, but if all you're doing this for is just to be more organized or more productive, right to get more done, that's not a very motivating message to people. When you talk about it's about getting meaningful done. That's different. So my positioning around simplification is this is a cultural and ethical issue. It's ethical because it is about how we spend our time and how we we're almost boundaryless with it. We give it away. And it's also it is a cultural thing, because I think we underestimate the importance of getting how we work right. Because if you get the work right, you get the culture right. And it's it drives, it's the compass for how you spend your time. So if, if I say to you, what do you spend your day doing? When you come home at night and you tell me that you spent your day in meetings and emails, that is the culture of your company. That is what they are. You are spending your time on. But if I ask you what you did, and you say, meeting with clients, recording my podcast, doing important things, that is the culture. And so how we work, the work we do every day, matters, and simplification is the key driver of that,
Greg Voisen
yeah. And so let's talk about meaningful work, because every Gen Z, or almost everybody across all age groups, is looking for meaningful work today, everyone is they. Doesn't matter. It isn't it isn't age related. That's right. Would you share a success story where a company embraced simplicity, because stories are always the best, and saw significant improvements in. The employee engagement and productivity. So let's say, okay, it was both. We got the productivity, we got engagement, but also a happier, healthier, you know, David Ally was just on the show, and they were talking about a healthy work environment, right? What? How do we create productive harmony, right? And so my question would be, is, it's not just like we get more done, but how do we have more fun doing what we're doing, and know that there's more meaning in it for us? So we come home at night, we go, hey, guess what? We just invented the rocket ship. They'll go to the moon or whatever, whatever it is, something that I can really say was significant and meaningful.
Lisa Bodell
So, yeah, I love that you bring up David Allen. I'm a huge fan of his work around productivity. And, you know, the thing that I talk about that's a little bit of a shift from that is, you know, again, the culture piece is not just about productivity, but this is about, it's actually a a well being message. It is related to mental health. And that's like, if you get the work right, you get the culture right. And the example I can give you is with, it's interesting. It was with Vancouver city credit union, and I was talking there with their chief simplification officer when she first came on board, and she said we were so stuck in like getting technology to help us serve our customers better, like come up with a process. She said that we missed out on the human element of asking people what the time sucks were like, what bothers or what wastes their time. And so by going through this process of killing rules and asking people what their time sucks were, and putting them through simplicity sprints. What was so interesting was it forced people to define what meaningful work was. It forced them to define and call out what was annoying, not just for the customers, but for themselves. And they reinvented work. And the results were, they got together 18 different groups in a year, and they killed over, let's see, it was over 300 forms, 175 steps out of major customer interactions and processes, and got rid of, I think it was over 300 policies. So just by asking, they were able to eliminate a heap of work. But the result, I said, How did you know it was a success? One was they achieved their highest customer satisfaction ratings ever, because you valued the customer's time, but internally, they brought down turnover. Engagement went up, trust levels went up on the employee service and ability to get things done. So you had all these benefits that were, yeah, they were productive. But people's engagement, and they're willing to not just stay but be engaged, overall in focus, went up dramatically, over 24%
Greg Voisen
that's a very, very good story. Now I'm going to make a comment, hopefully, our governmental bodies will hire you to get rid of the complexity.
Lisa Bodell
Well,
Greg Voisen
we do. I'm sure you do work within certain branches of the government. The question is, is, how do we get it so that it becomes a main focus of theirs, right? Everybody in government. So look, there's some steps organizations have to take to simplify, and you've got, obviously, your toolkit, simplification toolkit, in trying to simplify operations. Because normally it's about operations. It's the paperwork we create to get something done, to make sure something is recorded, to make sure the books, yeah. So what are the common pitfalls that that organizations listening to this? Or the simplifications officer, that's the first time I've actually heard that there's a simplifications officer, yeah, that's good. Are common fit pitfalls that they should avoid during this process of assessing how they become more simplified? Well, I
Lisa Bodell
mean a couple things, which is, you know, being organized isn't being simplified. So don't fall into the trap that just because you create a process that you simplified something you didn't right? This is about just getting if you think about the Marie Kondo analogy, it's not about her organizing all the crap in your closet. It's about getting rid of the crap and then organizing it. Yeah, there's an element to that, right? The other thing is, don't fall into the trap of trying to do things that are too big. And what I mean by that is focus on your sphere of control. And because when you ask people what they spend their day doing, it's not like regulatory. I mean, unless you work in legal or regulatory, it's it's not necessarily organizational. It's meetings and emails. It's daily complexity, it's reports, it's things we put in place and things that we have more more control over than we. Realize the other thing is, it's it's time sucks, it's redundancies, it's decision making, it's cultural norms, it's rules that have outlived their time that nobody told them. So the reason I'm bringing this up is it's not just processes. It can be it's behaviors, right? It's including too many people in a meeting. It's not clarifying what the meeting is for. It's ceasing too many people. It's not asking, not having a clear communication in what you want people to read or give you feedback on. So it's it's lack of decision making, or lack of clarity on who gets to decide what. So there are many different things that you can do beyond processes when you simplify and the key is sticking in your sphere of control to get started.
Greg Voisen
Your spirit of control is that what you said, or spear your sphere? So your sphere. Thank you. I'm glad you clarified the word. You used yours work
Lisa Bodell
you This is now the because you want to have control over your daily work, like your team sets your culture. Yeah, CEO sets the culture. But really, it's your team. It's the team you work with every day. It's their behaviors, it's their norms, it's their rules, it's their approach to work that sucks up most your time. Yes, there are people outside of it, more matrix and all that. But if you start in your sphere of control and you look at what's get rid of, what's wasteful, but then agree on how you're going to change your behaviors, it is amazing how much time you can get back like so for example, at NBC, and we work with them, being uninvited to a meeting is now a badge of honor, right? So they read, let's include the least number of people possible in meetings, because everyone's time is too important, so they cut out the whole FOMO element. And it was almost better to be uninvited to a meeting because your time was too important, rather than sitting in the meeting agreed.
Greg Voisen
I mean, actually, when I did the interview with David recently, they brought up the same thing, that if you didn't get an agenda, they did it a big financial services firm. And if I'm repeating myself, I am, because it's important, and you weren't included, you weren't on the agenda, then you don't show up. So the reality is just lots of people stopped showing up to meetings, which then saved a lot of time and simplified things and reduced the amount of time that people were sitting in meetings. So here's the conundrum. I've been around long enough, I don't know about you, but actually, for the Internet, yeah, we're all these web based tools that exist cloud based software. And the conundrum is that technology plays a role in contributing to help solve the problem, but also creates complexity in organizations as well. Yeah, how can company? I know you're laughing, because this is a big conundrum. It's like, okay, yeah, let's get asana and then, oh, are we using it, or let's get whatever the program is. How can companies leverage technologies to simplify rather than complicate?
Lisa Bodell
Joke, I always say is, when people say, is technology helped simplification or heard it? And I say the answer is yes, because there's so many things in my life that I'm like, Oh, I can't imagine, like, not having the app to do this. It's just so much faster, it's automatic. You know, all those kinds of things, the one click, however, technology without clarity, and just because you can doesn't mean you should. Are things we need to think about. And what I mean by that is, well, just because you can add one more thing, do you need it? And the other thing is, one of the reasons that the how of work, you know, the way we work every day is so complex, is we have too many ways to communicate. So I've got email, I've got slack, right? I've got teams channel, I've got the phone, I've got so it's so easy to set things up that we become lazy about it, and we haven't clarified, for example, like they do at Netflix, meetings are for decisions, emails are for information, phone calls and slack are for urgency. Don't use all three for the same thing. And just as we can get me first use each channel for its you know, fit for purpose, and I think that would cut down a lot of redundancy. We're creating too much noise because we can. It's easy.
Greg Voisen
I agree, and I'm sure everyone listening out there agrees with that statement. I'm sure, yeah, the thing that they need help with is, how do I get people to shift their mindset about how they use the tools? Well, that's going to be my next question here for you. You know, as these organizations grow, obviously, all these tools get inserted in more and more and more slack you were mentioning to some of. Well, what strategies can companies use to help employees shift the mindset about how they utilize these tools to become more simplified and make their life easier? I
Lisa Bodell
think the first thing is, one is communication, like communicating that your expectation is that people simplify, because I don't think we realize the amount of fear people have around it. I mean, they they'll give you tons of ideas, but actually doing it, they're afraid that they aren't going to get rid of the wrong thing, that they want to be valued, that they'll miss out, that they'll get fired. And so communicating that it's an expectation I expect you to challenge work, to kill rules, to get rid of things that aren't working. It's part of your job is important. The second thing is, is that the leaders don't do it. No one else does it. So, for example, we worked with, you know, the head of Pfizer, when Albert was he was not yet CEO. We were working with them on their simplification. And one of the things he said he had tried at first that didn't work, was telling people to say no to meetings. And, I mean, what a great thing. Everyone was complaining about it. So he said, Great, say no to meetings. And a month later, when they looked at, you know, people's logs, so their calendars, and he could see in the hallways how people were still stressed. He was upset because everyone was still going to meetings. And he asked his chief of staff, what's going on? And his chief of staff said to him, Well, they still go to all the meetings, because you still say yes to all the meetings. So until he stopped, no one stopped. So we have to model the behavior. Then on top of that, I think the thing that you need to do is do an exercise with people of what do they spend their day doing? And ask them to circle how much of that is meaningful work. Because you've got to get a comment. You've got to have them see how much of their time is wasted. And then you've got to have them see, well, if you if you weren't doing that work, what would we be doing? And define what meaningful work is,
Greg Voisen
do you do? You have an indicator of what this is actually costing us, businesses, or just any businesses to be have this level of complexity? Because when I say cost, I'm going to say cost in money, time, which can then be equated into money. But in the end, most people relate to dollars. How much is this costing us? But I think it's costing them in so many areas that are being measured. For instance, creativity, right? Innovation, I'm gonna say happiness, meaningful, meaningful things, right? So you look at two sides of this, I can say, well, you know, we used to refer to it as the human value equation. It's like, Really, okay, so you're worth so much to us. And so I know there's dashboards that are actually tracking all this shit, and inside companies, they see the numbers of emails that go out and the slacks that go out, and there's somebody that looks at all of that, and the reality is, that's freaking mind boggling to me, because they're trying to measure a KPI like that, and come up and say, oh, yeah, we were more productive because we sent out, you know, 8 million emails today, or whatever. Come on. Let's Well,
Lisa Bodell
there's a few things, yeah, there's a few things to that. I mean, depending on the study that you look at, right, we're talking about billions and but, you know, and but, you know, hundreds of billions of dollars and millions of dollars. But there are a few things about that, and there are even, you know, there's jokes about how Microsoft and teams wanting to actually, when you schedule a meeting, if you input the amount of time each hourly each person is worth, they can count, calculate the value of the meeting and see how much is being spent, right? So that's an interesting metric. If you could actually do that, when you set the meeting up, I think we would schedule meetings differently. We'd think about the time, we think about the frequency, we think about the invite, so it would force us to have an agenda. So I think that's really important. But you know, you're talking about measurement. They can measure the cost of a meeting and they can measure the cost of an email, but what we have found is until you change the reward system, it's going to be really hard to get people to stop that. So for example, what Pfizer was trying to do was tell people to have less meetings. And so people had got rid of the meetings on their calendars, but they shipped them all to phone calls, so they're not technically meetings, right? So this is what I mean. So people are smart, right? They there's a workaround for everything so they could look good. It the metric that you measure matters, and I think it's going to be really important. We're seeing this like at Sanofi right now, that making part of people's performance review about eliminating things and stopping things is very important. In fact, at Sanofi, they are building into their strategic plans. You're not just going to ask people all the things they're going to do next year, but you're asking them what they are going to commit to stop doing, and they hold them to it. So those are the kinds of things that has to be at a personal level and a team level. It has to be rewarded. And it has to be something where more than just like meetings and emails, it's got to be more tangible things like steps taken out of the system. It's also measuring things, like in your employee engagement survey, ability to get things done, amount of innovations in the pipeline, amount of time dedicated to thinking. There's a lot of other things that are kind of softer, that drive innovation, that people are starting to measure, rather than just productivity,
Greg Voisen
right? Well, take it now, flip side of the coin, and I'm sure you've got an answer, but as you know, basically what happens? Are there any dangers like we've got into with Lean, right? So this whole concept around lean, so we're going to innovate something, but we're going to do a lot quicker, because it's going to save more money, but we're not really having as many meetings around it. And then what happens is we end up having to redo it all over again. So, and this is an honest question, as I just was talking with Stefan about it. When we're talking about innovation, it's like, oh, but we tried to do it too quickly. We tried to simplify it too much. Where would you land in that? I know that sounds like a weird question, but I think a valuable one, because many companies now are trying to go the Lean route. So
Lisa Bodell
one of the things I talk about, and even my earlier book called Kill the Company, is that, you know, I'm I am I see a purpose for six sigma and lean and agile project management, 100% for processes. I think that is project management, product development, etc. But you know, where I'm talking about is the work of work. And what I mean of that is you're not going to spend your time Six Sigma email, Six Sigma meetings. These are more behavioral driven and more micro driven. And I think what people do is they get really into again, they fall in that trap of let's do processes, and I think then they fall into one size fits all, and they optimize things, but they haven't necessarily hacked them properly. And so I guess the thing I'm getting at is, I think Lean and Six Sigma and agile, those are all great, but we're not focusing on the work of work, and that's where most people spend their time. That's where they have we undervalue and underestimate the importance of doing, of getting those things right.
Greg Voisen
I think the work of work is a great statement for people to take away from this podcast, because it's almost like, you know, when you prep to do a speech. They say, Well, I'm just coming to do a speech, but you spent six, 810, hours prepping to go there for the speech, right? To go do the speech. That's the work of work, because then you only gave a 40 minute talk,
Lisa Bodell
right? There's much involved, yes,
Greg Voisen
but it's very relatable to people when they realize, hey, I'm being charged for, not only the work of work, but then the work, the work was, you contracted me to go do a speech. I had to spend six hours to get prepared for that. And I think that's the kind of thing we're talking about, is, is that prep prior to the actual work, that's really at a very expensive part, because you're only speaking for 45 but you're bending six hours preparing for the 45 minute. Doc, is that right?
Lisa Bodell
Well, it is. But I think the thing that you're talking about to me is another key differentiator, which is, you know, when I was talking about asking people what they spend their day doing versus what they want to spend their day doing, what we're talking about here is something very similar. Are you spending your time or are you investing it? And most people will say, Oh, we needed that meeting. And I'm saying, if it's not getting to the the end goal, I spent the time, but I didn't invest the time. And that's the problem with so many people, is they are not intentional about how they spent their time, and they give it away. It's boundaryless within so many organizations. And if we were more intentional by defining meaningful work and being able to know what can I say yes to, what can I say no to, I think we would get out of the the over engineered, leaned, Six Sigma kinds of processes, because being organized isn't being simplified. You're following a task. It feels good, right? We all love it, engineer, scientists, etc, but it's not necessarily getting us to the goal that we want, and then we can better decide where should we spend more time and less time. So the I think you have to have subtraction before you have addition. That's really what I get at yeah,
Greg Voisen
I've I always relate to this, and I may have related this to you before. I do listen to Jordan Peterson somewhat, and while he some people think he's wacky. He said, You know, we all have a contract with the future. And the question is, is, what is the sacrifice in the present for the contract with the future? Now, some people will tell you, I'm not making any sacrifice in the present for my contract with. Future. But when you look at simplification, the reality is, hey, I would like to remove what you may think of as and I'm going to use this term my sacrifice. I don't look at it as a sacrifice. I look at as the work of work, but let's make it so that the work of work is less in the front end than on the back end, right? Because I want to enjoy my contract with the future. Okay? I'm not saying give things to me. I'm saying I will work for them, but I think I'm doing way too much nonsensical work to actually enjoy my contract with the future. Does any of that make sense to you? Makes
Lisa Bodell
a big it makes a lot of sense to me, which is, yeah, because that's the other thing, which is about we're so stuck, kind of on this executing our calendar, that we're not really driving ourselves forward. And what I mean by that is most people think, just because it is same thing over and over again and it's familiar, that's very human, right? And it's organized, that it must be good. They think they're in a group, but I like to say they're not. They're in a rut. And the problem is they look and feel the same. And the difference to no groove versus rut is, are you spending time? Are you investing it? You're investing it if it's getting towards the future, if it will help you. You know, investing your time is getting rid of things too. You're spending time if you're not driving forward towards the future, right? So I would argue that people that are not making any sacrifices, or they're not being mindful or intentional about their time, they're just spending time. They are not driving towards the future. But if you're intentional, you know what you'll say yes to, what you say no to. You are driving towards the future, and that's hard, by the way. It's not it. It sounds like, Oh, it's so easy. Just say yes, just say no. A lot of people aren't empowered to say no. Well, I
Greg Voisen
think where people get people get a lot of freedom from all of this. And I remember doing this interview like over a year ago. I'm trying to remember the author's name, but she wrote a book called Flux, and she became very flaming famous about how you look at life. She she actually was 19 and lost her mother and father in an automobile accident in Europe when she was 19. So they both died. The point was that perspective shift. For her said, How am I going to flux in life? How am I going to be able to pivot? How am I going to be able and I think today, pivoting is one of the most important things that we can have as a value to a company to be able to pivot, be able to pivot this?
Lisa Bodell
Yeah, I would, I would add, though, one of the things I say about simplification is, I think one of the things that happened during covid is everyone's was told to pivot, and everyone was told to be agile, because they were waiting for the next unnecessary or unplanned crisis to come up. Right? They had to be ready for the next thing. And the goal of being a flux, I think, or simplification, is you don't want to be on defense. That's not what it's about. You want to be offense. So the reason you simplify is so you can be, not just be ready for the next thing, but when you see the thing that you really want, you can pivot towards it. You're driving it, versus reacting to it. And I think that's, that's the difference between a company that's simplified, in a company that's complex. They are reacting when they are complex. They can pivot to the next emergency, but they're not driving forward to anything and vacation companies. They create that future. They can
Greg Voisen
drive they can actually focus on something in the future and create it and manifest it. And I get that. So look, we are in a world of information overload. You've even said it data everywhere. Ability to analyze beyond analyze, how can organizations manage the influx of all of this data that's telling them on their dashboards about certain things that are going on inside their company, without falling into the complexity trap. Because I think what happens Lisa is, we, they rely on this data to make decisions and but I don't, but then they should, they should, to a degree. But the question is, is, where is their intuition in the process? Where is their gut feeling around this? Because I think when they use intuition in the workplace, and I'm bringing this up, as a result of intuition at work, yeah, Pat, where can we actually use this data, along with our intuition, to simplify?
Lisa Bodell
So what you're getting at, which I think is important, is thinking. The reason that you want simplification is the you have the space and time to think, because that will allow you to grow come up. Ideas, create a problem, solve, innovate, etc. And I think one of the problems right now is with data, just because you can doesn't mean you should. We rely on it too much versus our gut, but the reason for that is in the absence of time to think, just do what the numbers tell us. So there's a reason why we have so many reports, but we can't take action on them. We don't have time. There's a reason we have so many reports, but even though our gut tells us something different, we don't do it. We don't have time to think. So by getting rid of and having the space, I think it's you should have data, you should have reports, but you need to have time for the deep work of thinking. And so my hope for people in terms of how they use their time, with intention is to start mandating more deep work, more thinking time. Ah, I love it, yep. So you can actually, you can innovate, because it all the data doesn't matter if all you're if all you're doing is staying internal, it doesn't matter. But it's what you do with the data. Right Thinking to take you external, and that's what simplification does. It's free.
Greg Voisen
Well, I can remember stories being told, and Stephen Covey Jr has been on here several times. And at the covey organization, they used to give people signs for their doors that says, I'm thinking, and they used to put it out front. And actually Covey used to encourage that. Used to say, hey, you need to have thinking time, not doing time. So I think this whole being doing conundrum is a big issue. And Barnett bean, the guy who worked with Robin Williams in producing a bunch of movies, wrote a book about the conundrum of being and doing, which I thought was fascinating, yes, because it is like, how do I actually think and then apply what I've thought? And I think many people run from thinking because they've found an easier way out, which is relating to the data that comes through the pipelines, or,
Lisa Bodell
I would say, or one of the things I talk about, I'll never forget, because I sit on a board at Novartis, and I was talking with boss as the CEO, and he asked me a question, because I said, people really value being busy. And one of the things they talk about it. Novartis is being unbossed, right? Meaning you you have control. You're the, you know, you're the you're the lead in your own own play. And being unbossed, he said, is great, because it makes you unbusy. And I said, Yeah, but that's interesting, because when people are unbusy, they are uncomfortable. And what leaders have found is they know they're doing something right when they get time back and they start to feel uncomfortable because they're so used to doing they have to remember how to dedicate unstructured time to thinking. So it's like one of the first signs, I think, when you're doing it right, is you're uncomfortable because
Greg Voisen
you're not busy. That is it is, you know, looking that comes from us, and if it is any one thing I could say is it's your ego saying you're not enough. So no matter where that came from, whether it was childhood or adolescence, and your parents said you should be a doctor, and you didn't become the doctor and you're not enough. You're carrying all this not enoughness around. Now, I'm not saying on that, on the flip side of the coin, that we should be a sloth, but we definitely need time to think and reflect. You know, like on walden's pond. So the point is, is to reflect about our story ourselves and our point for existence, right? Which leads me to our final question here, if there is one big E takeaway that you hope readers will take from why simple win? What would it be, from Lisa's standpoint, and then, how can they immediately start working with it? Whether they're a solopreneur a company working on a big team inside of a company like novitis or something, or they're the CEO of the company, which all three people listen to this show. So I like to give a takeaway for that could be universally across all platforms,
Lisa Bodell
that successful people subtract just as much as they add. And I think that the reason that's important is because they know the importance and the value of time. So the only way that you are going to be successful is if you know what you want, and that's not by doing everything that's doing the most important things. And so being a leader, or even in your personal life. A person that is not afraid to say no or to get rid of things is the person that's going to be happier. They're going to get to their goals. They're going to focus. They're going to have more clarity, because they know what matters if they're doing it for themselves, they're not doing all the things for everybody else. So if you could build in subtraction, I think that you'll realize you have more control to do that than you realize so well said.
Greg Voisen
Lisa, thank you for being on Inside Personal Growth spending this time for all my listeners, let's go to futurethink.com Also, we're gonna have a link to the book. Here it is, “Why Simple Wins” and namaste to you. Thank you so much. I appreciate you being on the show and sharing your wisdom.
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Inside Personal Growth with Greg Voisen · Podcast 1153: The Truth about Stress with Richard FlintIn this podcast, we delve into the intricate world of stress management with insights derived from the seminal book, The Truth about Stress: Understanding It from the Inside. Joining us today is the esteemed Richard Flint, whose expertise in psychology enriches our discussion. Throughout the episode, Richard helps us unpack the multifaceted nature of stress, addressing both its causes and its often-overlooked effects on our daily lives. Richard has been with us as well on our 1067th episode for his books I Need a Life! and Behavior Never Lies.
As we navigate through the conversation, Richard emphasizes the importance of recognizing stress triggers and understanding the body’s natural responses to stress. He sheds light on innovative coping mechanisms that can be tailored to individual needs, drawing examples from real-life scenarios to illustrate how these techniques can be practically applied.
Moreover, the discussion pivots to preventive strategies that aim to build resilience against stress. Richard offers insights into lifestyle adjustments and mindset shifts that can significantly mitigate stress levels. The core message he shares is the empowerment through knowledge—understanding the ‘why’ behind our stress responses can be transformative.
The podcast also touches on the broader implications of stress in the workplace and in personal relationships, suggesting ways to foster environments that reduce stress-inducing situations. Richard’s approachable tone and the relatable anecdotes he brings to the table make this episode not only informative but also highly engaging.
To conclude, Richard reminds us that managing stress is not about eliminating it entirely but learning to adapt and manage it effectively. His expert advice, grounded in decades of research and practice, offers a beacon of hope for anyone looking to lead a healthier, more balanced life in the face of stress.
You may also refer to the transcripts below for the full transciption (not edited) of the interview.
Interview Transcipt -Not EditedEmailDownloadNew TabGreg Voisen
Well, welcome back to Inside Personal Growth. This is Greg Voisen, the host of Inside Personal Growth, and we've had Richard Flint, who's on the other end of the camera there on our show before for podcast number 1067. We're now at 1150 so that was a few podcasts ago. Richard, how are you doing today?
Richard Flint
Let me tell you something. Greg, I am alive and well, healthy and happy and fit.
Greg Voisen
That is the best you can ask for, and blessings to you. And it's a guy give gratitude that you're on the show to talk about a book that you've actually had out for some time, but we figured, hey, the world's dealing with more and more stress. So let's talk about it. Let's dialog about it. "The Truth about Stress: Understanding Your Life from the Inside Out." I'm going to let people know a little bit about your website. You want to learn more about Richard, go to www. richardflint.com r-i-c-h-a-r-d-f-l-i-n-t. You can learn about Richard and his seminars. So he's been on the show before. As I said, we'll put a link to podcast recording. It was regarding two books he had, but it was that podcast number 1067, he's a man on a mission to approve your life. His message are designed to help you understand how you can change your behavior to live a happier, healthier and more peaceful life. And that is one of the secrets to stress. Is how you change your behavior. A lot of it is how you react to it. He has coached and counseled 1000s of people with stressful lives and helped them learn how to achieve calmness. Richard travels the world, speaking about his area of expertise, knowledge and behavior, working together for personal success again. Www, richardflint.com, Well, Richard, without further ado, let's get into this. Because I think my listeners would love to know what your perspective is, because there's been a multitude of books written on stress, stress management, how to get rid of it, how to do it. Your book “The Truth about Stress” tackles this persuasive, pervasive issue of stress in our lives. What inspired you to focus on the topic and how does your approach to understanding stress differ from the conventional perspective that we see?
Richard Flint
You know Greg, this this book was the result of some situations in my life that happened. I have three sisters. My sister that is, was just young, just older than I am. Her name was Rita. She died of a heart attack. And when I sat and talked to the doctor. I asked, asked him, what happened? He said, Richard. He said, I've been telling Rita she needed to do something about the stress in her life, and if she didn't, that stress could kill her. Well, it did, and she and I had talked so much about the stress in her life, and she just felt, well, it's just a part of life. Then a week later, one of my mentoring students died of a heart attack, and her husband told me we couldn't get her to slow down. There was just too much stress in her life, and she felt she had to do everything, and the stress caught up with her. You know, what a lot of people don't understand is that stress is a part of life. It'll be a part of your life from the day you born to the day you die. But when people don't come to the realization about it, stress is a silent killer, and it either controls you or you control it. And as we were talking a couple of minutes ago, I've never seen stress in people's lives at the level that it is today. And it seems like people, ever since covid, people's life has has sped up, and there just seem to be out of sync with their self, and every time that happens, stress is going to become a silent killer in their life. And you know, this is why I wrote the book, the books now, and it's six printing, and it's just something that we. We have to wake people up to you will always have stress, and the secret is not to eliminate stress, because there's no way to eliminate stress, but you can control it. Yeah, I wrote the book.
Greg Voisen
Well, in those two stories are fantastic way for us to start off this interview, because if it doesn't kill you physically, it will deal with your mental psyche, and it will deal with depression. It will create depression, right? And then, who knows, maybe you've died from that as well. But the point is, yes, you cited two examples of people who died from stress as a result of a heart attack, and you always wonder, then, so what's going on with them with relation to their love and their life love for self? Because usually a lot of people who have a lot of stress, they're always going because nothing is ever right. You know, it's like the ego's always constantly talking to them. Now, you mentioned that stress is often misunderstood. What do you believe are the common misconceptions about stress, and how do these misconceptions impact people's lives at home and at work. Well,
Richard Flint
Greg, an hour and a half ago, I was on a conversation with a young lady, and we were talking about her life, and she told me, she said, Richard, my life is out of control. She says, I'm not resting. I'm constantly fatigued. And I told her, I said, You've got to get your life under control. People just have this attitude that, you know, stress is just going to be stress, and you're going to have it in your life and just deal with it. But yet, most people don't deal with it. And you know, I've always found this interesting, Greg, that I think, I think our innerness is smarter than we are, because our mind, our emotions and our physicalness, support is there to protect us. I mean, I don't know about you, but I've been here. You ever had a day that you were so emotionally tired that you had a headache, or a day that your mind was just so overwhelmed emotionally you had no energy, and you didn't listen to either one of those. So you get up one morning and you have a cold, you hadn't been sick, you hadn't been feeling bad. But I think our innerness works to protect us. And I tell people every day of my life, listen to your life. Your life is smarter than you are. Man, yeah, you can, you can learn what stress really is.
Greg Voisen
Well, I believe that a lot of the physical manifestations from stress appear in the body, as you just said, a cold, flu, all kinds of things. I know right now I'm dealing with a meniscus issue in my knee, and you have to say to yourself, well, did that manifest itself? I mean, a lot of people might think I'm totally crazy, but did that actually manifest as a result of stress, and then somebody will say, well, what's holding you back? Because it's a knee or you have a pain in your side. And they'll say, well, who is the pain in your side? Who's the pain in your neck? Right when you have a pain in your neck? And so when you actually start asking that question, Who or what is actually helping to manifest those physically in your body than you see. So in the book, you discuss the idea of stress is not necessarily a bad thing, and I think there are good stressors and there are bad stressors. Can you explain how stress can be harnessed for positive force and what conditions are necessary for this to happen, to just say, okay, you know, we get a block. But one of the things about stress is we can move through these I always say you move through uncertainty into opportunity, but you have to be willing to face the fear, because a lot of the stress is a result of worry and fear that are really unresolved, worry and feel but unnecessary worry and fear. Comment,
Richard Flint
yeah, well, this is something that I try again to help people to understand, to listen to that positive stress is the result of the belief, the trust and the faith that you have in yourself. I believe in me. I trust that I'm doing my life when I'm supposed to be doing and I have the faith that I seem go forward now it doesn't mean I. Going to experience stress, but this form of stress is something that doesn't wear on me. It just shows me how to slow down and how to live. But the bad stress is whenever, all the time we're dealing with doubt, and you use the word worry and uncertainty and doubt, worry and uncertainty come together. What they do is they punish you with the tension, with the pressure, with the stress that they bring to your life. And what I see happening today, Greg, is that more people are living from the outside in than they are the inside out. I think what we're doing is we're allowing the outside world to come at us, at such a force that is just heightening our doubt, our worry on uncertainty. I talk to people all the time, and they talk to me about the uncertainty in their life and what it's doing to their life. And when doubt, worry and uncertainty control you, it brings its whole army of other emotions with
Greg Voisen
you. Yeah, so now just something like one of the things that you we want to get to is managing it. Okay, so you outline several strategies for managing stress in the book. It's one thing to have the stress. It's another to management. What strategies do you find that could be most effective for the listeners, and how can individuals begin to implement those into their daily lives, right? So it's hey, look, do I do meditation? Do I do yoga? Am I mindful? Do I take a walk in the woods? Do I take a hot bath? Do I go to the sauna? Do I whatever these things are, solids? Do I pray, whatever? Meditate, pray. What are some of the things you think could help people apply that when they're dealing with the stress?
Richard Flint
Number one, for me, is slow the pace of your life down. Okay? What I'm seeing today is that people are so busy being busy, being busy, but not knowing what they're busy about, the faster the pace of their life, the more they're living from their emotions up. And when you're living from your emotions up, you're freeing stress to bring that doubt, that worry, that uncertainty into your life, right? And another thing is, I think you have to really know what you want for your life. And I'm finding again, since covid, so many people have just lost the passion in their life. They've lost the direction of their life. So every day where they used to give get up and they have this feeling of purpose, today they get up and it's like they're wandering. Gentleman yesterday he told me, he said, Richard, he said I used to be one of these people that had a purpose for every day of their life. He says, I get up today and my world is different, and I don't really understand this world. And he said, it's just wearing me out.
Greg Voisen
Yeah, there's a sense that, and I get this too, because I speak with not only a lot of authors, but a lot of clients, your perspective and viewpoint on the world and stress is a key. The second thing is, it seems as I think it's a perception, again, that it's almost like, I'm going to use this term. You've heard it. Many of my guests have heard it like suspended animation. It's like there's no traction. I don't know where I'm going. It seems like an animated world I'm caught in this just you remember the Wizard of Oz, when Dorothy got caught up into the whirlwind and then ended up over in Oz land? You know, it's like people are in the whirlwind waiting to land in Oz land and then get the chance to create a new life. Right? So, how can people this book kind of touches on the importance of self awareness in managing stress, and this is what I'm pointing to, perception self awareness. What are some of the practical steps people can take to increase self awareness of what they're doing to themselves, to actually reduce the stress and to be able to live with it positively. Because I think there's two things look because it, it, you have a little chart in the book, right, and it, I'm going to go to it for people, because you actually put it in in many places. She called it event. Event, belief choice. Okay, event, belief choice. Here's the event, here's the belief. And you talk about expectations, and you talk about the self direction or destruction, and that's kind of the that can be the final step, as you can self destruct. But for all my listeners, here it is, the little chart, and it's valuable speak with us about it. Richard,
Richard Flint
well, every day of our life we're handed different events, experiences in our day, at every event you're handed, you create a direction from that, and I'm either going to look at that from my emotions up or my mind down, and the direction that I choose really creates the choice that I make. And everything in life that you do with your life is a choice. One of the things I'm going to understand more and more, every choice that you and I make and your listeners make has a direct pathway back to some experience or invent in our yesterday, and how I view that creates what I feel about that. And I'm going to look at that, and I'm even what I'm either going to go to my yesterday file cabinets that are filled with all my disappointments, frustrations, negative events in my life. I'm going to go to my positive file cabinet that is filled with all my successes, and I'm going to take something from that file cabinet, one of them that's going to direct my choice, and then that choice creates a path that I go forward.
Greg Voisen
Well, the thing is, is, you know, you're alluding to something that I was taught a long time ago. Question is, for people, does it stay? Do you believe your life is an accident, or do you believe it's on purpose? Now, I think when you're on purpose and you have a purpose in life, one of the best things you can do to get out of any stressful situation, Richard is to give of yourself and to have gratitude, right? So when I say, Give of yourself, I'm saying, Well, do you have a cause you'd like to give to? Like, I have a charity I founded for the homeless and Ukrainian refugees. That's what I do, is I help support those people. I get a good feeling from that, not a bad feeling. Now, you ask your listeners, my listeners out there today, what else are they focused on besides the negativity? Why don't you focus on something positive, right, like giving yourself and giving gratitude? Hey, I woke up this morning. I'm breathing. I have my eyesight. I can walk. I have all these things available. I have food, I have a car. Once you start looking at that and you see a lot of the other world, you should be really grateful and less stressful. Would you agree that taking this perspective would actually help people change their self awareness and reduce their stress?
Richard Flint
Yeah, because what you're doing is you're not searching from the outside world everything that's attacking. You're looking at your life from the inside out. You're seeing yourself as a person of gifts, a person of talents. And I'm with you. I think that light is purpose, but I also believe that all behavior has an agenda. And many times what I say my agenda is to you, is not my real agenda, because there's always an agenda behind the agenda, and that agenda behind the agenda is where a lot of the stress comes from. And see if you agree with this. I don't think you do anything in your life without giving yourself permission to do it,
Greg Voisen
of course.
Richard Flint
But how many people do you know that deny that this is not my fault, and every time you have an excuse, you increase the negative stress. Every time you don't deal with yourself honestly, you hype into negative stress. I
Greg Voisen
learned one of the fun one of the fundamental beliefs in one. Call it a belief. It should be a truth that we're 100% responsible for ourselves, no one else, nobody, outside of ourselves. Richard, as you know, you know this so well you've been through so many life experiences. Is responsible for our happiness, is responsible for where we are in life. We are responsible for that when you understand that simple 101, philosophy. Feet, you really can deal with stress a little better now. You might not like how things are going, because, as you said, you had an unmet expectation. You thought you'd be in a different place. Now, and you're not in that place, so you're literally depressed or stressed by the fact that you're not in that place. Life doesn't always move at the pace in which you think it's going to move or reach your goal. That's one of the things I truly know, right? So in this fast paced world, which you've mentioned just five minutes ago, yeah, you've talked to two clients that are just feeling totally overwhelmed. Don't know what to do, the demands of the work demands a life. Here's the question, Richard, how can individuals strike a balance between productivity and maintaining their mental and emotional well being? Because the faster we go, the more behind we get. Yay. It's like we're chasing our behind it. What would you basically tell people today to slow down? Because you just said it a few minutes, slow down. Slow down. The speed of your life. We even see people that are moving to islands with 50 people on them because they want to get away from, you know, the hustle and bustle of the city and so on. You can create that Nirvana right where you are. If you choose to, you don't have to run from this. You don't have to run from where you are right now. You need to change your mental perspective about where you are right now, right, correct. So what would you tell those people to get this balance, Richard, that they're looking for.
Richard Flint
Well, first thing I would tell them, Greg is stop trying to balance your life. You can't balance your life. And balance, to me, is trying to put everything into one box and make it fit. And rather than have balance, what you need to do is find harmony. And harmony is finding an agenda that connects what I think are the four rooms of your life, your business room, your family room, your social room and your Personal Room, and find a purpose that connects all four of those rooms. I learned in doing counseling that if my rooms are out of sync, the stress in my life becomes overwhelming, and life is not one size fits all. It's learning about the different segments of our life. And how do I put my family room in tune with my business room, my business my number one room of mental stress, my family room is my number one room of emotional stress. How do I keep those from being in conflict? And then, how do I find time for myself? I hear this all the time. I wish I could, I wish I could find time for me. Man, I used to love to play tennis. Used to love to work out. You still love to play golf. I just don't have time for it anymore. So what happens when you you shut down your social room? You have an a space in your life where you need the right people to be around, and they can help you by joy, happiness. They can bring a sense of fulfillment. But the most important room that people don't have to date is there personal where you go by yourself? You and I were talking before we came on air about the noise, and there's too much noise in life today, and noise comes at us in every direction. We need some place where we can go by ourself and be alone with ourself. Most people are fearful of that, because most people want honesty, as long as it's not honest, and all by yourself, you can't lie to yourself, but it's behind the harmony in your life, not balance. Balance increases stress.
Greg Voisen
Well, I think you know, people have talked about radical honesty, and these kind of things you know about being honest and truthful with yourself and with others. And as they said, there was one woman, Martha. What's her last name, Beck. She's like a huge coach. She speaks about not having been honest to herself and not having been on me buddy, and her whole life changed when she became honest. And I think when you start telling the truth. Because if you look at your life during the day, in many course, courses, we tell ourselves lies to get through the day. Okay, we we are definitely telling ourselves lies. In many cases, I like this, but no, I. Don't really do, but I told you I liked it, you know, I just just get get it out of the way. So, you know, you in your seminars, you're encountering individuals from all kinds of backgrounds that come to your some seminars or workshops, and they're dealing with all different types of stress. Are there any universal Stress management techniques that you would recommend to anyone or everyone, regardless of their specific circumstances?
Richard Flint
Greg, there are four Ps that I think if we practice, it really helps us control our stress. The first thing we already mentioned, and that's pace. Are you managing your life? Or is your life managing you? And if your life is not at the right pace, then what you're doing is is, is allowing the outside life to control the inside you. The second one is a tough word for a lot of people, patience in our fast paced world and the fact that we want everything now we don't practice patience. And if I don't have patience, my pace is out of control. If my pace is out of control, then I don't have the patience that I need. And then the third P is preparing yourself I get I get up every day, and I give myself a purpose for that day, and that purpose settles me down. It gives me a sense of calmness and clarity and and then the fourth P is, I got to be persistent. I can't live on a roller coaster. One day I'm up, one day I'm down. One day I'm I'm as happy as can be. The next day I'm in the dungeon. And it every life is so different. And you can't just fit one technique into people's lives. You gotta know the person. But beyond the person, you gotta know the personality.
Greg Voisen
Well, those four P's, and if you would repeat them for our listeners, because they are important, and it was pace, right? Well, first patients, pace, prepare. Preparedness, nope. And purpose, preparedness, yeah, and then persistency
Greg Voisen
and persistence. You did mention something about purpose in there, though, too. So you said you started your day with a purpose, yeah, which helped you the rest of the day? Or intention, intention or purpose. Okay, so look this book for all of my listeners, the truth about stress understanding your life from the inside out. It's a real quick read. It's very fast read. It's got all kinds of guides in it. It's like he's got guidelines that you can use for stress management. There are quizzes with a stress from Personality Questionnaire. Again, I highly recommend that you take that and get this little book like you said, it's on its fourth printing or third printing, third or fourth,
Richard Flint
it's on sixth.
Greg Voisen
So we'll have a link to it on Amazon. So finally, Richard, if there was one key takeaway from our little chat today that you hope leaders would gain from the truth about stress your book, what would it be and how can they start applying it from the minute they hang up from listening to this podcast on iTunes, Spotify, YouTube, wherever it is.
Richard Flint
That tip would be this, remember, stress is real, and if you don't deal with it, it's a silent killer. So every day you gotta practice pace, patience. You gotta practice preparedness, you gotta practice persistency. And when you put all of those together, it gives you a way to manage the stress in your life. Please don't ever forget this. You cannot eliminate stress. If you could, you'd be dead in minutes, but you can learn to control it. And my book, The Truth about stress, is all about realizing stress is real. You can management you can manage it, because if you don't manage it, it's going to manage you.
Greg Voisen
I love it. Is a great message. I hear what you said to many, many years ago, I had a workshop called the wayfinding journey. Was about finding purpose, and I coined a term called productive harmony, and I haven't heard it used much since, but you did. Mentioned about harmony, and I think the key is, of those four P's, that's what's going to help you create harmony in your life. That's what's going to you said, Hey, you can't balance, but you said, you can harmonize. I'll go I'll go with that. I'll go with that. The 4p create harmony, thus then creating balance. So, so that's the way I'll broach it. I'll look at it as a seat sequence down there. Okay, tremendous. Thank you for being on inside personal growth and sharing. Sorry. Your thoughts. Blessings to you, Richard and your team there at Richard Flint seminars. Go to www Richard Flint, f-l-i-n-t.com. There, you can learn more about Richard.
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Inside Personal Growth with Greg Voisen · Podcast 1152: Intuition at Work with Jessica Pryce-JonesIn a world where decisions often hinge on data and detailed analyses, relying on intuition might seem old-fashioned—or even risky. However, in her latest book, Intuition at Work: Using Your Gut Feelings to Get Ahead, Jessica Pryce-Jones invites us to rethink the role of intuition in the modern workplace.
The Power of Intuition
Intuition is more than just a hunch; it’s an essential leadership tool that has guided many to the top of their fields. This seemingly mystical ability allows leaders to make quicker decisions, achieve better outcomes, and avoid costly mistakes. Whether it’s choosing the right job, picking team members, or setting strategic directions, intuition plays a pivotal role.
The Science Behind Intuition
Drawing on the latest scientific research and compelling anecdotes from senior leaders, Pryce-Jones demonstrates that intuition is not only real but also a skill that can be honed. Her 25 years of coaching experience provide a deep well of knowledge, showing that intuition is not just about “going with your gut” but involves a blend of hard, soft, and intuitive information.
Practical Applications
The book is structured to guide readers through understanding, developing, and applying their intuitive skills. From exercises designed to tap into intuitive thinking to strategies for fostering an environment that nurtures this skill, Pryce-Jones offers practical advice that can be implemented immediately.
Why Read This Book?
For anyone looking to enhance their leadership abilities or simply make better decisions in a time of uncertainty, Intuition at Work is an invaluable resource. The blend of anecdotal evidence and practical tips makes this book not just informative but also immensely applicable in daily professional scenarios.
Conclusion
As we navigate an era of radical change, the ability to harness and trust our intuition is more valuable than ever. Jessica Pryce-Jones’s book is a compelling invitation to unlock this powerful tool within us and use it to foster personal and professional growth.
You may also refer to the transcripts below for the full transciption (not edited) of the interview.
Interview Transcipt -Not EditedEmailDownloadNew TabGreg Voisen
Welcome back to Inside Personal Growth. Jessica, I don't know what number show this is going to be, but last count, I was at 1150 so it's going to be somewhere about at 1150 and 17 years. It's a pleasure having you join us from the south of France today. And what city are you in?
Jessica Pryce-Jones
I'm just near Bayonne, Southwest.
Greg Voisen
Southwest. Well, this lovely book called Intuition at Work. And the subtitle, because you probably couldn't read it, everybody is "Using Your Gut Feelings to Get Ahead." You know, some of the greatest people in the real world talk about intuition, and at work, you can go out there and get quotes from Steve Jobs and Bill Gates and all kinds of people, and they say some of the guiding things that help them in business was listening to their gut feeling, listening to their intuition, and so today, rejoining us, Jessica had a prior actual appearance on the show, but it was way long ago, and we're going to put a link to that podcast as well. But this show is about the intuition at workbook, and I want to let our listeners know a bit about you. So she's an award winning coach and author who works at CEO and the senior executive level. She runs seminars on harnessing intuition in the decision making process, and I think that's the key is, you know, sometimes we don't have enough information to make the decision, so we've got to go to our gut. She's taught at some of the world's most prestigious business schools, and is an honorary senior visiting fellow at Bay's Business School. She taught and supported over 15,000 executives over her career, and she's a regular speaker and media commentator, and she lives in France, as we said, and there's the book. So everybody go out and get it. Well, you know this thing called intuition, we all have it. The question is, are we tuning into it? You know, it's like, hey, it's there. But am I really listening to that deep voice inside, or am I hearing voices in my head? You know, I used to hear things. I think some people are auditory. Some people are kinesthetic. Different ways they get this. I recently saw that a guy talk about he missed the plane that went down in Brazil or wherever it was right, so the plane didn't make it, and he was happy that his intuition pulled him not to get on the plane, right. So your book emphasizes that intuition is the superpower in the workplace. Can you share some personal story where intuition, I think, significantly impacted one of your professional decisions or an outcome for you, because if you're going to write about it, you got to live it yourself.
Jessica Pryce-Jones
Totally. I was thinking of which one of the ones do I choose, and I think this one is quite a good on it. About 20 years ago, I was at a major turning point in my life, and I was going, oh, you know, do I? Do I take this job? I have never been head hunted in my life. This was the only time I was head hunted, and I was offered a really nice, big, juicy role, and it would have been on an exco I'd have been traveling all over the world, and I just, I got, got the job, and I got the papers in, and for some reason, I just couldn't sign them. I just didn't sign them to send them back in. And by the way, I had negotiated for 12 weeks off a year, never coming in on a Friday. And that was quite unusual then. Anyway, while I was just going, or, you know, I don't know why I'm not sending in newspapers, I went to chat with my old boss, and had a cup of coffee with him, and he said to me, Jess, just stay behind and you might like to meet my next guest, who turned out to be someone called Professor Michael hay, who's teaching at London Business School. And Michael said to me, you know, what are you doing? And I didn't say, Oh, I'm really hesitating about taking this job. He said. I said, I'm setting up a practice as. An independent coach, and he said, Oh, we're looking for someone like you. Could you come in? I've got 10 days work immediately, you know, if you fit, maybe they could be yours. And the rest of this is history. So for me, not signing those papers and listening to my intuition, which was like, you know, I had this misalignment, internal misalignment, about that job, and that's what had stopped me sending, you know, signing the contract, sending it back. But listen to that utterly reshaped my career. So I think that's a biggie.
Greg Voisen
Well, I think a lot of listeners, you know it. It's a big one. But at the same time, you know, I went back to school and got a degree in spiritual psychology, and it was the best thing that I ever did. And the story that I would say is it really got me in touch with my intuition. I'm not certain I was and as in touch with it, but I realized how valuable it was to listen to it at the time, to actually take the course right to go back to school later in life and get a degree in spiritual psychology. So one of the things that you discuss, which I think is important, because there's this thing around discernment and intuition, right? I always said, Well, how discerning Are you? How are you really hearing this is the voice inside or the feeling you're getting, or the gut feeling, or whatever you discuss this concept of intuition bias in the book, right? How can leaders who are out there listening to this today, recognize when they're relying too much on intuition, and how can they balance this with data driven decisions? Because, look, we get data from everywhere now, chat, GBT, you name it. It's all over the place, but still frequently, the data alone can't help us make that decision about who we're going to hire or what we're going to do, because in the end, sometimes it's information overload.
Jessica Pryce-Jones
Yeah, I want to, I mean, I'm not sure that in we haven't got a term intuition bias, and I'm wondering whether it should exist just in the same way, we don't have a term for analysis bias, and I think that that's the real problem inside organizations, which is, let's, Hey guys, let's not listen to our gut, but let's keep pounding our heads on this one, because the data says it should work out. So I actually think, you know, if we had more of an intubation bias, it would be more helpful. But, you know, again, when I started work, I remember one of the very first meetings I went into as a graduate trainee, and the boss, at the end of the meeting said, slightly sneerily, you know, well, what does the graduate think? And I started off, well, I'm feeling. And he cut straight in and he said to me, I'm paying you to think, not to feel. And so Greg, I like said, never had a feeling since you know that part of you know, what are we all feeling about this? Yeah, right, what you what's coming to mind for you when we're considering this decision? We don't, we don't do that. We don't really ask those questions. And the really interesting thing for me is, is that when I'm facilitating workshops amongst other people who know each other really well, or don't know each other at all, what they say is that the quality of the conversations that they have is very different. When you say, right, where do you go? Eating to yourself now, where are you feeling this? What are you feeling? What is it bringing up to mind for you? What are the images, the sounds, the sensations you're getting? That's it's a very different kind of conversation, and and it's quite an exciting conversation. And of course, you can go to your decision tree, and you can drag out your spreadsheets and look at your performance dashboard, but it's not going to give you that qualitative feel, that your intuition will.
Greg Voisen
You know you you mentioned this about he paid you to think, not to feel. And I often wonder, you know, about the sexes, because between a male and a female, it's always been understood that females are more intuitive, or at least that's what people think. I do believe, when you balance the masculine and feminine. If you're a guy like I've really tried to do, you can be extremely intuitive and you can be extremely feeling, meaning having lots of feelings about piggy. And you said that in the introduction, you mentioned that intuition often remains in the brain. Broom closet. I would think for many guys, it's in the broom closet in a professional setting in particular, because they're like saying, well, this isn't a feeling I had. This is a decision I made on data. Why do you think intuition isn't more openly discussed or valued in the workplace? Because it really should be. And if all these great people like Bill Gates and Steve Jobs and Warren Buffett have all said intuition is just like the best thing in the world, why aren't we in the workplace taking hold of that?
Jessica Pryce-Jones
I think you're completely right that may be the, you know, the something, something in, in it not being allowed in inverted commas, because it's, it's felt to be a less than response. It's felt to be maybe slightly lazy, a bit shameful, a bit like you've been called cheating. So, you know, I think that's one reason I do, on the other hand, think that there's a lot of guys who are trying very much to bring it to the fore in their senior executive meetings. And so I interviewed one, one such delicious person, a CEO Hal reisiger, CEO Cosworth, and he talked all the time about how to try and pull up his leadership team's ability to be intuitive, because it just gives you that extra dimension. So if you're only using analysis, it's half a conversation. But for those people who do want to pull it into a conversation, I would say now emphasize rational decision making or problem solving? Yes, of course, we need to keep but we need to add this additional bit because it's so useful. And it's, you know, 100 years since Freud said the intuitive mind is a sacred gift and the rational mind is a faithful servant. We've created a society that honors the servant and has forgotten the gift. And so it is the gift that it's it's helpful. It's useful. We know it works when you, when you there's a one fantastic study that showed that the leaders, managers, when forced in an experiment to use their intuition. Were right 91% of the time when naive investors were in Germany, there were only 16 of them. They were making investment decisions on a fake portfolio, but they were right almost 80% of the nearly 80 decisions that they had to make. Well, that is incredibly much better than chance. So is intuition always right? No, is it better than chance? Absolutely, a ton more, let's but let's be honest. Is analysis always correct? Absolutely not. That depends on what you programmed your spreadsheet with and the assumptions that you're making. So we've got a ton of evidence that it works and it works well, I think it's part of my ambition is to show people this evidence and to show that when they use it is useful. And I think that having conversations about it is a very short, far way for us to help people realize what an incredibly, spectacularly useful tool is. It is a superpower, as you said.
Greg Voisen
Well, you know, there's this whole spiritual element that it comes up in play that, you know, I used to go to spirituality at work conferences. Judy Neal over here in the States, used to put on these spirituality at work and we would get in these philosophical discussions around intuition and so on. And I think when you look at the kind of people that showed up at those conferences who were interested in allowing people to bring spirit to work, right, the Richard Barretts of the world, right? The the people that write about this and say how important it really is. You know, I happen to be sitting next to the man who developed the Cliff bars. And Cliff is worldwide now for their nutritional bars, and he was just saying how important intuition was. So you describe intuition as this process that can be developed and accessed on demand, and this is where I'm going with this. Can you outline the steps that somebody could take to strengthen their intuitive abilities at work. Because what we're talking about here is one thing that's kind of a bit amorphous. For some people, it's like, hey, it's intuition. I get that we have it, but I can't access it, or I don't know how. And I think if you gave them the steps to help them develop it on demand, that would be really valuable. Yeah.
Jessica Pryce-Jones
Uh, the interesting thing for me is that people who say they haven't got an intuitive bone in their body, often the people who do it best because they've got no, no expectation of it working, and then they can, they often could just go, whoops straight there. So I think that that's a fun thing. So I would challenge it if someone who says, I don't have an intuitive burn in my body, I go, hooray. Come on in.
Greg Voisen
You're going to be one of my subjects.
Jessica Pryce-Jones
Tell me about this thing. I think they'll Okay. Step one is to start noticing your reactions to something. So we're always told to actively listen to other people. I see I like to get people to actively listen and notice to themselves, because that's the way that you start going. Okay, this is my response to this. This means good. This means bad. And there's a really nice exercise I do which I could share with you. Now, should I share with you? Now? Go ahead. Okay, so I get people just to identify something that they really love and just shut their eyes and just and it could be a person, a place, a thing, green bond, just something that they really love, mountain dog, whatever, child, and to go into your body and shut your eyes and to rethink about this thing that you love, and you can swell with those feelings of love, to just make them much, much bigger, and to notice where they are in a body, so to notice where they're showing up those feelings, and then to notice the energy that's associated with that feeling of loving this thing. And to try and magnify it a little bit more to see if you can dial it up. And then we stop the exercise. And then people say to me things like, I felt my heart open. I felt all my energy kind of get calm. I felt that I felt joyful. I felt that like I wanted to do something. I felt like if I wanted to be there I felt motivated to do Yeah, so we share all this stuff. I've had one person say they felt their shoulders tingly so and it's really fun to share cues in a room, because that then people go, Oh, I wonder if I could notice that for myself another time. And then then I say, Okay, that's great. So this is these are all the your cues for this is a good thing, um, so notice when, when you're feeling these feelings and somebody else is speaking, that's your physicality telling you this is a good thing, um. And then I say, right now, we're going to do something different. I'd like you to re access the thing that you told yourself you just love and tell yourself now you hate that thing. And I get people to close their eyes and tell themselves you hate that thing you've told yourself you just love. And what's happening in your body. Where are you feeling it? What are you noticing? What's happened to your energy? And then you open your eyes, and Greg, I noticed that you were doing it. So is there any, any response that you had to that, to doing that?
Greg Voisen
Well, in the part about loving it. It was a pet and a pet that I adore, but when you said to hate it, I found like I was very repulsed by it. Like, Oh yeah, no, I don't even want to go there with that particular feeling.
Jessica Pryce-Jones
You didn't want to go there. So, people report things like, you know, my throat closed, you know, I couldn't do it. I wasn't, you know, my mind went blank, yeah, things went dark inside my head. My heart shrank. I felt angry with you. I get lots of people say, Oh, I'm breathing with you, yeah, to do this thing, yeah. Why would you do that to me? Right? Don't do that to me. So I always make that bit last a bit less time then that that is your aversion, that is your physicality and your body and your mind telling you no. So when you feel that, so when your boss says to you, I want you to do eggs, and that's the way you react. That is your no so these are just cues that you can then start to take. So recognizing your own cues and how and where they show up is the most important thing, because sometimes these stuff. The stuff will just come out of nowhere. And if we can't recognize it, we can't, we can't, then use it. So it's this is how we start to go, Okay, I'm recognizing my yes and my No, and now when someone else is speaking, I'm just going to tune into what's this telling me. I also like people to start thinking, okay, what are they connecting within their real space? So, some intuitive stuff, but so for example, let me give you a real one. Here. I was chatting with my friend Julie in Los Angeles, and I said to her, Julie, I'm just going to tell you this. I keep being drawn to my screensaver, and my screensaver is, it was a photograph at that time of a pair of feet in the sand. My husband and I got up early, gone for a walk in the beach, and there was just this one pair of feet in the sand that tracks. We had fun and we couldn't see anybody. But it was, it was Q, and I took a photograph and put it as my screensaver. And I said, I just thought, yeah, they keep being drawn to this. And she went, oh my goodness, I'm having a moment with my partner, and we're going to go for a walk on the beach later to try and sort ourselves out. So you know what's what you what's your tension being drawn to? Because it might be giving you some information in your environment that is useful in the situation that you happen to be in.
Greg Voisen
So I also remember, I always remember, and pardon me for interrupting, but I had a gentleman on here who's quite famous around wrote a books on on signs and symbols. So things we see, a stop sign, a billboard, something written somewhere that a lot of times we'll just kind of walk by it, and we don't really pay much attention to it, or things that are going on in our body that we're not paying attention to as well, which are being, uh, manifested as a result, something potentially deeper, right? Whatever that might be. Now, for some people, they go, Well, that's woo, woo. You know, that's just the way it is. But I think if they're willing to explore, especially this book, intuition at work, and bring this to work, you can find out how wonderful it can be. Now, one of the things is, is intuition in high pressure situations where somebody has to make a quick decisions are needed, right? How can professionals who are out there listening to you and I cultivate the skill to ensure they could rely on the intuition in critical moments, you know, like high pressure moments or whatever. So, you know, you can imagine, there's plenty of them that people are plagued with. The question is, is, how do they discern that what they're feeling is better than the data they're receiving from other sources?
Jessica Pryce-Jones
Well, I think if you constantly go against intuition, and the data they're receiving from other sources is right, and they haven't listened to it. Oh, my God, you know that? I mean, you you experience that pretty fast. And you know, I'm a member of the human race too, and I did that exactly that two weeks ago. I had a very strong intuition not to do something. I did it anyway, and it blew up absolutely in my face. Oh, if pay attention. So I think that the first thing is you can't use your intuition in a high pressure situation if you've never used it in a low one. So I remember ages ago, talking to someone who is a VC investor, and he said, I'm never going to give anyone a million if he hasn't asked me the time of day. So I need to be giving, or my opinion, you know, I need to be giving something something small, before I do something big. And it's the same with intuition. You need to make a relationship with this thing, and if you've never had a relationship with it, you won't trust it in a high pressure situation. So my advice would be other than to get my book, is to use it in lower risk situations where you can then check out. Were you right? Were you correct? And to not really beat yourself up, you know, if you're going, Oh well, you know, it's a I'm going to be tripping over a stool today and you stub your toe on a table. Okay? You know, you're pretty close, so I but for my money, it's better to be more non specific. So go into, go into what's going to go on in this room, and what am I feeling in this room? Okay, there's good mood, there's bad mood. Where's that coming from, you know? And just see. And then you can check it out easily. Um. You can say, you know, Hey, Greg, it seemed to me that you were in really good spirits today, and you, Greg will then verify whether you were or you weren't. You weren't in that meeting. You know what I mean? So you, you get something easy. Go with what's here.
Greg Voisen
Yeah, I think that's a really good, that's great advice. And one of the things that has been written about quite extensively, is this connection between the heart and the gut, right? And we know that there is a very strong connection, right? And you were talking about these physical sensations and the gut feelings we get. The question, I would say, is, is it actually coming from the heart and being guided down to the gut? And can you explain how these concepts really kind of intersect with intuition, and how can they be harnessed in the work environment? You know, I know there are times when our heart races right and then we get a real funny feeling in our gut, right? Because that is a natural sensation, because it's either fear that's doing that, or it's love, but usually it's one of the two. When somebody's madly in love, the heart can race and you're getting these funny sensations all throughout your body. Or if you're afraid of someone or something, the fear can do that as well. Speak how we could use these sensations in the work environment, especially the one around fear, to avoid any things we might want to avoid.
Jessica Pryce-Jones
I think, you know, I was once in a hiring situation, and I was the second interviewer. And this, I was interviewing this woman, and she came in, and I just went, huh, I think she's pregnant, and I think she's just pregnant. And of course, you're not allowed to ask, you know, are you pregnant? Hello, you it's not a question that you could do, and this means you'll be bad for the job, right? I just, it was just, you know, something that was part of the it would impact your role anyway. So I said to her, is there any reason that in a year's time from now you'd want the role to look any different, and which was, you know, a little bit close to the little bit close to the air, to there, and anyway. And she said, What do you mean? I said, don't worry. Forget about it. But it meant that I was right. I was totally right. So she was, we did her, she was pregnant, and I was completely right. I said, she's three weeks pregnant...
Greg Voisen
And she had, she ended up being a good employee.
Jessica Pryce-Jones
She was great. So, you know, that was just, I cannot, you know what, what? How did I get that? I don't know, but it was just this sudden, like in it came, and it felt totally, I felt totally aligned with my thought. So for me, I know that the physical sensations are useful when I feel aligned with a yes, or the sense of it misalignment with a no, with a no. So I think that that's the important thing. Is that the misalignment is the intuition. The alignment is the intuition, and it should, should make you feel so these physical sensations should then make you feel like you say, a sense of relief or calm or joy and just knowing. So I describe intuition as a feeling of knowing. So you have the sensation, sensation part, but you have the cognitive part as well, because it's that it is like this,
Greg Voisen
yeah, the knowing party. You know people, people speak about Jessica, is it a belief, or is it a knowing? You know, I've had this debate so many times. When you have a knowing, it's like it's, I don't want to say it's permanent, but it is kind of like this real strong feeling of permanency around knowing versus a belief. Our beliefs change a lot, right? It's like, hey, they can go out when somebody convinces me of something else, right? And in the book, you discuss the importance of balancing intuition with other forms of thinking, in this case, like logical and analytical thinking, which many people do, especially engineers, especially software engineers and programmers, because that's the way they're programmed. Okay? How can professionals know when to trust the intuition? So even an engineer will get intuition my son. An engineer for Adobe, I know sometimes he will listen and go down a different path over more traditional decision making methods, because it sometimes you get these hunches. When look, everybody thinks, oh, well, we we have this, this thing here, the cell phone. We've gotten so used to these things, and we think, Well, how many iterations do you think it took Apple to come up with that cell phone? Or how many people do you think actually the cell phone itself is there's a 93 or 94 year old man. I'm trying to think of his name because he's he's a friend of a client of mine who actually invented the cell phone, and at the time, I think he was with Motorola, and he still lives in Malibu. And so you think about the iterative process that somebody went through in making decisions to change something or move something, or do something, or design something, or scientifically do this, or put a chip here, or do that, and you're thinking to yourself, my goodness, how many times did they actually use intuition to actually make that process? And many of them will tell you they used intuition a lot,
Jessica Pryce-Jones
absolutely, and science is the same. So the people that you think the least intuitive people are frequently the most. So you know, you'd think it would, it would be an Italian rational process, but it, but it isn't. So I think that what yours are you? Did
Greg Voisen
you ever, pardon me, did you ever follow, and you should have, because your origins are English, right? Yes, a gentleman by the name of Bohm, yes. Okay, so here's somebody who really believed in the strength and power of intuition, right?
Jessica Pryce-Jones
And I think that when things are uncertain and the situation is uncertain, it's absolutely ripe for intuition. So, yeah, when you're creating something new, it's very uncertain. Is it? Uncertainty is inherent in the process, so that so it's absolutely right for intuition, just like your job hiring is strategy. So creating, anything creative is is is wrapped into intuition is wrapped into it. And, you know, architects talk actually about, I interviewed a couple who didn't, I didn't put them in the book because I put someone else in. But they talked, for example, about buildings arriving whole in their brain. And JQ Rowling talks about her whole Harry Potter thing, just arriving whole like that. So the this creative process, which is got this uncertainty built into it, it's fabulous for intuition. So a volatile circumstances, bigger circumstances, complex circumstances. So those that is, bring on, bring in your intuition. Use it.
Greg Voisen
That's a huge download when somebody like that gets it all at once, and you have to think to yourself, there is something mystical, spiritual about those experiences. And you mentioned that intuition often improves our experience, and I would agree with you. What advice would you give to younger professionals? So we're talking about Gen Z, that kind of person who may have the same level that may not have the same level of experience, but they want to tap into these intuitive abilities any because we look it's a multi generational workspace that we all work in today. So what would you what advice would you give those younger people
Jessica Pryce-Jones
go and have a load of conversations with some older folks who have been doing it and find find out what it is that they did, so you could have really interesting conversations about that, and then think about the times when they have had intuitions, and they have been right. Because I think just because they're younger doesn't mean that they've never had any intuitions. The question is, have they learned to trust it? So just to I get people to think about intuitions that they've had in other contexts, they don't need to tell me what the context were, but just how the intuition showed up for them. And so think about it outside work, and then if they want to play with it so to learn to use it more, I think it's, this shouldn't be a effortful thing. It should be a fun thing. And so, you know, go on some dates, do some intuiting around the dates that you're going to go on and find some challenges on Insta or Tiktok, because there are plenty of people that you can hunt out and follow and do their intuitive challenges.
Greg Voisen
Yeah. And so there's it, the advice you're providing is good advice, especially to have them go speak with somebody who's a bit older than them and speak. With them about intuition and how they've utilized it over the years, or in that case, maybe not, but to to go to many people to speak about it, because I'm sure everyone would have a comment. I remember when I was doing the research for my book, I went out to software engineers in particular because I wanted to see how this community actually dealt with intuition, and it's really interesting. Some of them would completely kind of disavow it, say, Oh yeah, I don't believe in it. And many of them would go, Oh yeah, I'm using my intuition every day and the design process or whatever. So your book tackles a toolkit to kind of tackle what we call the common blocks to intuition. What are some of the most significant barriers that people face when trying to access intuition, and how can they overcome them? And I'll make my own comment here, because when you actually are able to, in this case, when you're actually able to, like, get in a spot of mindfulness meditation, contemplation, someplace in silence, you frequently will pick up this vibration, this intuitive vibe, okay? And I always tell people, and this is my own advice, from having written my own book, that when you give yourself that opportunity, it's like you open up a pathway. And I'm gonna say this, my listeners understand me, and it's like coming through your crown chakra, right? So it like it comes through you. It comes through you, just like, JK, Rowling, you said it downloaded, you know, you said it just came through her. And I think you have to be receptive to that. And some people are, and so what would you tell them to remove the barrier?
Jessica Pryce-Jones
Uh, yes. So be be open to being open is, is numero uno. I mean, it's so easy to sit and go, No, you know, I've tried that. It didn't work when people haven't really so numero uno is take yourself to some places and spaces where you have just got time to listen and tune in with yourself, and I know that that's incredibly hard in today's working life, but you can, you I don't believe that you can when you when you've got, you know, 40 emails to try and respond to in two hours time, and a report to write, and something that you need to give to somebody else, etc, that you now have no time for it. So my first place to go to would be, make some time. It doesn't need to be a lot of time. But if you can't ever tune into, okay, I'm standing back here, big breath. What's really going on underneath this? You just won't get there. So one, I think maybe one, one other piece of advice, just to go back to the young folk would be, if I was in an old if I was in position of my boss, what decision would I be making right now, and what might inform that? And then you can just see, you can, you can go to your boss and say, Hey, I was thinking about these things. Tell me about how you made your decision. And I think that's exactly what you can do in this situation. You can kind of quays I play with decisions that you're not having to make, but that other people are making in order to practice, because getting the time to try is a block or just saying that I'm not going to do it now, you know, so trying and maybe do that on the way home. Because when, if you're driving home, you're in the car, your kind of mind is semi occupied anyway, and when your mind is saying semi occupied, it's a great time for intuitions to pop in, just like, you know, when you're in the shower going for Iran or chopping vegetables. And that leads to, kind of the second way of getting unblocked is, you know, we block ourselves by going to come on anyway. Bring it on. Okay, nothing here.
Greg Voisen
Yeah, exactly. You're trying to force it. It isn't something that can be forced. It's something that happens for you, not to you. And so what I say is that, you know, be open, like she's saying, Be open and be receptive to it, and be find places where you can be in places where it allows you to open up to it. You know, whether that's on the beach or it's in a yoga class, or it's meditation or being mindful, or cutting the vegetables or whatever, because it's going to happen and you have to not brush it away. Right? But really give it some thought. What? Whoa, what was that? Right? And I say to people, you know, take time to analyze it, and then, as you said, on least risky things, apply it and see how it works. And you'll, you'll find out that this in here works. You know, try it at work. We call it work, intuition at work. Now in in concluding our interview here, technology has become everybody's partner. We're using it right now with zoo to do this calm and in particular, in the last probably nine months, a huge evolution with AI, and it's becoming more integrated in the workplace. We see it everywhere now. It's on this software, it's on that software. It's on this how do you see this role of the human intuition evolving, and how can it coexist with this AI just driven decision making that a lot of people are becoming dependent on, or one that potentially could ultimately dominate, because, you know, you can go to chat GBT and ask it anything, and it's going to pretty much get you an answer. And the question is, Are you now relying on that as your intuition, or are you I understand that. I understand not.
Jessica Pryce-Jones
Ai uses what is it doesn't use what isn't. So AI will never be able to say to you, take this job, invest in that project. You know, choose this partner, make these life decisions. Ai can't do that for you, because it's only working with what is it's not working with what isn't. And so visible, yes, and so your intuition, for me, it's part of your unique competitive advantage. So, but this is the reason that you should hone it. So AI will always there will always be another tool, another something. And of course, you need to learn to use AI and use it well, and to learn how to engineer your prompts so that you get the best conceivable answers out of the AI that you're using, because lazy prompts are going to give you lazy answers. But intuition. Intuition is the thing you know. 99% of CEOs say they use it. Yeah, that's 99% so if you really want to get yourself to the top, intuition is going to be one of those tools that will help take you there. What else I mean, what? So it's going to help you with your success. It's going to mean speedy decisions, less time wasted, fewer mistakes. And do take people on a journey with you when you.
Greg Voisen
I think, just trust it. Jessica, so go try it. Trust it. You can get this book. We're going to have a link to handles on also, if you want to learn more about Jessica, because she's been doing this for a long time. Folks, this isn't her first book here. It isn't her first rodeo. Go to website, and that's w-e-b-p-s-y-c-h-e-d.com. There, you can learn more about her. We're also going to put a link to that. We'll put a link to Amazon, to the book at amazon, so you can get the book. We're also going to be completing a thing in brain bump for Jessica, so you'll be able to actually access that on our YouTube. And she's also going to be on our wise notes. So please look for those as well, because there'll be two other areas that you can learn more about the book and get, like a summary version of this book. So all of you who are listening right now, check out website, go to our YouTube channel, go to Jessica's website, and obviously there'll be a link to Amazon. Jessica, you have brought out the intuition again in me this morning. Namaste to you. Thank you so much for reminding me to tap into it. It's always good to have someone just be a little bit of a nudge or reminder to take some time to do it. And I think because all of us are think we're so busy, we frequently decide we don't have the time. And really, this doesn't take that long. I mean, you can drop in in a matter of two or three minutes. Should you give yourself that opportunity to do so? Otherwise, you're just going to continue to block it out. Block it out. Block it out. So kudos to you for a wonderful new book. Everybody go out and get it. Any last words you have for our listeners? Jessica,
Jessica Pryce-Jones
yeah, they can also find me on LinkedIn if they want to connect and if they got me questions, you know, please, LinkedIn is the easiest way to get me and it's just to say, been such a pleasure. Thank you so much. So I'm honored to be with you here again,
Greg Voisen
and I'm honored to have you back on and we'll put a link to that LinkedIn for you as well. Take care, Jessica. Have a good rest of your evening in France.
Jessica Pryce-Jones
Thank you.
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Inside Personal Growth with Greg Voisen · Podcast 1151: Thinking at the Speed of Bias with Sara TaylorIn this podcast, Sara Taylor, a renowned Diversity and Inclusion strategist and the President of deepSEE Consulting, delves into the pervasive issue of unconscious bias and how it shapes our interactions and decision-making processes in the workplace and beyond. Drawing on her extensive experience and her upcoming book, “Thinking at the Speed of Bias,” Sara provides a practical roadmap for individuals and organizations keen to foster true equity and inclusion in an increasingly polarized world.
Recognizing Unconscious Bias
Unconscious biases are automatic, mental shortcuts used to quickly assess situations and people. While these biases are a common aspect of human cognition, they can lead to skewed decisions and perpetuate inequality. Sara Taylor encourages us to slow down our thought processes to recognize and scrutinize these biases. By asking ourselves questions like, “Is my reaction based on facts or my assumptions?” we can begin to dismantle these often invisible barriers.
Building Cultural Competence
Cultural competence is not just about understanding diverse backgrounds; it’s about integrating knowledge into everyday actions. Sara outlines a clear set of skills and strategies aimed at developing cultural competence. Through engaging examples, she illustrates how these competencies can lead to more nuanced understandings and interactions with people from different cultures and walks of life.
Scaling Change
The insights provided in Sara’s work extend beyond individual changes. She explains how organizations can amplify their impact by scaling cultural competencies across their structures and systems. This transformative approach ensures that inclusivity becomes embedded within the organizational fabric, promoting long-term equity and effectiveness.
A Vision for the Future
With unwavering optimism, Sara shares how deliberate and informed efforts can create a more equitable world. Her practical guide is an indispensable resource for anyone looking to make meaningful changes in their personal and professional lives.
Sara Taylor’s message is clear: By confronting and controlling our unconscious biases, we can create environments where diversity and inclusion are not just goals but realities.
You may also refer to the transcripts below for the full transciption (not edited) of the interview.
Interview Transcipt -Not EditedEmailDownloadNew TabGreg Voisen
Welcome back to Inside Personal Growth for another exciting episode of our podcast. And look at the title of this book Thinking at the Speed of Bias by Sara Taylor. Sara is joining us from Minneapolis, Minnesota. Good day to you, Sara.
Sara Taylor
Well, fabulous day to you, Greg. Thanks so much for having me glad to be here.
Greg Voisen
Thank you for being on it's always great to speak with authors that are writing about what is pretty cutting edge, both from a business standpoint and yours, actually applies to personal standpoint as well. So, when we come to personal growth and business. This is the book, and for all my LinkedIn listeners, definitely will put a 59-second short up there for you to take a look to so you can do it. Sara has two websites, and I want you, my listeners to know about. One is Sara Taylor, and that's just t-a-y-l-o-r.com, right? That's one place that you can get to her. And the other one is Deep See, and that's s-e-e, not s-e-a, deepseeconsulting.com there you can learn about her book, about her, about how her company works inside of cultures and what they do to help people become more aligned and more effective in what it is that they do. So, I'm going to let our listeners know something about you. She was on a podcast we were just talking about was seven years ago, and that one was called filter shift. And we'll put a link to that podcast as well, so our listeners can, if you want to go check out the book filter shift as well. She's for 20 years now. She's been helping organizations and the individuals, and I'm gonna put highlight that within them to be more effective and inclusive through their engaging diversity inclusion trainings, comprehensive leadership development programs, innovative cultural competence frameworks. For the past 15 years, as the founder and president of deep C, S, E consulting, she has worked with HR managers, chief diversity officers, and high level executives at 3m Company. We just had one on Jay. She's the top at 3am she just did a podcast that we just published, AARP, Cleveland Foundation, Coca Cola, Marriott, General Mills, United Way Worldwide, National Credit Union Ingersoll Rand Seagate, and the list goes on, including Thrivent financial, which is right there in Minneapolis. She's the author of a new book. This new book now not the old book, which is up it as a website, thinking at the speed of bias. She also served three years as Director of Diversity Inclusion for Ramsey County in Minnesota. We were just talking about Tim waltz a second ago. Are going to be our new Vice President? This is my podcast so I can say whatever I want. She established a new department to lead the DNI efforts for 5000 employees and developing leading, long term organizational change strategies. So we'll get into that, because actually, I've learned that about 80% of lead change strategies fail, and she has a way to actually help them not fail. She's an active member of the Society for Human Resource Management, human resource professionals in Minnesota, Minnesota Society of Human management, Twin Cities, resources well, and she earned her master's degree in diversity and organizational development from where else but the University of Minnesota. She and her husband reside in the suburb of St Paul, and they have four children. Well, Sara, an honor to have you back on again after seven years, and thank goodness you wrote another book, because people always need to kind of keep moving in a direction and be curious, and you're the kind of person that is curious. So what inspired you to explore the concept of these unconscious filters, which everybody has. They just don't realize they have them, and they're in impact on our thoughts and behaviors, I'm going to say, both in the workplace and outside the workplace.
Sara Taylor
Yeah, absolutely. Well, a couple of things. First of all, folks might be surprised those. Aren't watching the video. Don't know that I am a white woman. You might be surprised thinking, What the heck is a white woman doing as a diversity, equity and inclusion practitioner, but I have actually been talking about bias and stereotypes. I started actually giving speeches when I was in junior high about stereotypes and discrimination, before dei was even a thing, really, and that, and then all of my career, and it's actually now 35 years that I have been a dei practitioner. So in those 35 years, my work has really been about taking research based information and making it practical and applicable to folks and really through that make transforming organizations and the individuals within them, so over and over again, working with organizations, groups within organizations, executives and so forth, and giving them tools to develop and as My mother would always say, when she was a fabulous cook, and anytime she'd try new recipes, she'd say, well, you're all my guinea pigs. In many ways, my clients have been my guinea pigs for the last 22 years that we have had deep sea and so they're all of the lessons that we have learned through clients and through helping individuals and organizations to develop to be more culturally competent, to reduce the negative impact of bias, and so when we see how much that impacts in the organizations that we're working in. We really wanted to be able to make that, the message and the tools more broadly available. So let's,
Greg Voisen
let's talk about that, because, and not to cut you off, but I have a right questions for you. You know, something comes to mind as you're speaking, and that is that in cultural diversity, whether it's an Asian person or a black person, or somebody from a different nationality or race, they might be Norwegian. The reality is, their upbringing was different than ours, say, as a white woman, and for all of you, you've seen me definitely a white man, too white because I've gotten too much spin cancer. But the reality is, is that because of their cultural how they were brought up, culturally, coming together and working together in a company sometimes can be quite challenging, like, Hey, how is it that we treat certain people. So if you're Asian or if you were black, or if you were this, somebody from Norwegian, Norwegian descent, how do you actually kind of codify all that and help companies wrap their hands around it, especially when you're working in teams with all this inclusion and cultural diversion. What is it your company does?
Sara Taylor
Yeah, absolutely. Well, first is we help folks to understand how our brains are working as we interact across difference, and going back to that competence, we know that we're all at some particular stage of five stages progressively more effective stages. We're all at one stage or another in how effective we are in interacting across difference. And so first is knowing what stage Am I in. Think about it as I frequently use the analogy of if you had five stages of math ability, you know, elementary school, high school, college, masters, PhD as an example, and you're trying to solve a PhD level problem, well, you'd want Folks that have a PhD level of ability, right? Well, in our organizations and even just in our daily interactions, we have PhD level problems and PhD level issues that come up. Even in my one on one interactions, they come up so if I don't have that ability, that fifth stage of ability. I'm not able to be my most effective. I'm not able to make the most effective decisions, and my organization, then is also operating with the majority of folks that are not effective. So that's the first piece is. So
Greg Voisen
why don't you get. You tell the listeners what those five stages are,
Sara Taylor
yeah, just overall, a big overview, yeah, yeah. The first is oblivious to even easy to observe differences. The second is judgmental us, them, good, bad, the stage where conscious stereotypes live. All of X group were smart, all of that y group were lazy. The third stage, which is the last of the ineffective stages, is where the vast majority of folks are, almost 70% and we know this based on the assessment that's been done globally with these particular stages of development. That particular stage, I say that the mindset of that stage is a focus on differences, divides, a focus on similarity unites. And we see that stage socialized everywhere, which is why so many of us are in that stage. Then the last two stages are where we're finally able to observe our own unconscious filters, and we can talk about those in a bit. We're able to actually see how it is actually our filters that are interacting with each other, and we're able to see that in the fourth stage, and in the fifth stage, we're able to actually adjust based on those filters that are interacting.
Greg Voisen
Interesting, you know, you describe the distinction, or if you could describe for the listeners, between filters and frames. Yes, you know. So, how do these concepts interact, and why is it important to differentiate between a filter and a frame?
Sara Taylor
Yep, a number of things, because of how we can understand each other, but also how we can understand our own brain. So I coined those terms back, I don't know, over a decade ago. Frames are the differences that we can easily observe. So as we already mentioned, you know, I'm white. I'm a woman. You can tell I'm middle aged, 57 to be exact. I'm five six. You know, you see my size, you see my body language. But other than that, you don't see a whole lot. Those are my frames, my filters. On the other hand, operate in my unconscious. They're an unconscious mechanism that create all of my preferences, all of my perceptions, even my decisions, my thoughts and therefore my behaviors. So when I'm interacting with someone, I may think and be really aware of, oh, I'm interacting with, for you, I'm interacting with a white man, if that's all I'm really thinking about, and I'm missing the incredible complexity that you bring through your filters. And just to give you a sense of the difference and just how much our filters hold of information, actually, what gets at that with a question, how many pieces of information do you think our brains take in in just one second? Take a guess. You
Greg Voisen
know, I'd forget. I've heard it. What 10,000 11 million? 11 million? Well, I was way off.
Sara Taylor
Well, because it's really hard to imagine. And the reason why it's hard to imagine is because of the second part of that question, how many of those 11 million are we conscious of? It's only 40. So that means every second we have 10,999,960 pieces of information that are input absorbed by our unconscious filters. So you mentioned earlier, cultural differences, and that's one of the types. There are three different types of filters. So as an example, over a lifetime, I've got filters that I have absorbed information that I've taken in that are norms from the groups that I'm a part of, and those are going to dictate for me, not only how I behave, but also how I judge others. So let's say just a different cultural style of communication. I'm a direct communicator. I might be interacting with an indirect communicator if I don't see that as a filter and I'm paying attention to their frame, and their frame is very different from me. I associate my judgments. Of the filter, like, Ooh, that was rude to say that I associate that judgment of the filter to that identity difference. So I'm from a group there, from B group. So instead of saying that behavior was rude, I say B group is rude, and I don't even realize how my filters have decided all of that.
Greg Voisen
So filters, in one sense, to me, as we've been inculcated all of our lives through school and home and whatever. In some cases, it's a protection mechanism. We believe it's a protection mechanism right in in a sense that. And here's where I'm going with this. In your previous book, filter, shift, there's a there is central to the approach, what you call the development of stages of this process and how individuals can progress through them. You just talked about that a bit. But whether I'm at stage three or four or five, as you did, clearly articulate that, I think that we bounce around. We don't actually stay at any one stage again, this is my personal perception of it, because we're human souls on this planet trying to interact and come as a soul to work, hopefully, with all of our skills and talents and abilities and whatever. But at the same time, what we're talking about is unconscious. Yes, it just exists because we are who we are, right? And I'm not saying that we can't learn about who we are, but some people don't really care about learning.
Sara Taylor
Oh, absolutely. Oh my gosh. So many points there that I want to pick apart. I give you a lot of material to why you said we've got five hours, right? So let me start with the last some people don't care to learn, fabulous whatever. They're probably in that second stage, and they're the ones that are limiting their own effectiveness, and they're limiting their own I mean, think of it this way, if I have an opportunity to understand filters that are deciding for me, do I want to do that or not? Or, you know? Yeah, I guess the option is, let those filters keep deciding for you, let them be in control. You know that, and for folks in that stage, you know that definitely is an option. We're really targeting more the folks that are the majority folks, 70% that are in that third stage. And you mentioned the it's actually a common misperception that I can go back and forth between these stages. And I talk about this in thinking at the speed of bias of you know, if you really think about it as developmental, think about other ways that we develop. We're newborns, then we're toddlers, then we're preschoolers. Now certainly there are certain, you know, behaviors, so we might kind of go back and forth in those stages of development, but you don't have a toddler wake up one day and say, I'm going to go back to losing all of my toddler skills, and I'm going to go back to only my skills, of of just going to completely lose everything. Or tomorrow I'm
Greg Voisen
going to wait, not going back into my diapers, right, right? Or,
Sara Taylor
you know, tomorrow I want to be a preschooler, and then the next day I'm going to go back to being a toddler, a toddler, it just doesn't happen. Think math. You know, you got to learn the third grade skills before you move to the fourth grade skills. And once you've learned those fourth grade skills, you've got them. The same is true here, once you have and think of it this way, those latter two stages in particular, understanding, witnessing, first of all, how your unconscious filters decide your thoughts. Once you have that experience and you really are able to witness that, it's difficult to you just it's very, very rare to go back
Greg Voisen
Well, one of one of our political leaders, has certainly gone back. I'm not going to mention any names here, but when you talk about going from toddler to adolescent to whatever, I just sometimes I wonder about the mentality. But again, I say, This is my show. I can say what I want out. The reality is, without mentioning any names, everybody could put a name to that one, if you'd like. Yeah, the you talk about polarized mindsets, and I think what people out there listening might want to know is, what are the strategies that you'd recommend for breaking these polarized mindsets, or polarization, especially in highly divided environments. So they let me just state this, in a highly divided environment. Look, you had a police force in Minneapolis that had some pretty bad people on it, right? So the reality is, is that, and I'm not going to point to all of these things, but what I am going to say is that, how much more polarized could you get? Yeah, right, right? And you're saying, well, these are human souls too, that acted this way, bad behavior, right? And you see this happen in companies as well, right, right? Maybe not that extreme, but the reality is, extremes. What are you gonna How do you come in? Sara Taylor, all bright and smiley, white female at 5857 years old, and you're gonna talk to all these police force like we're gonna change this media bias, right?
Sara Taylor
Right. Well, and actually, we have different public safety folks across the different public safety realms that are clients. So we do exactly that. And I can talk about that. I do want to just say a couple more things about polarization, though. First, that helps us to understand it. Number one, you mentioned one particular leader, but one of the things when I was researching for the book, I really did a large global scan. And this is some stuff that didn't make the book. Some of it did, but we see across the globe, there are leaders that are dialing up polarization. Now, how do we know that they're dialing up polarization? Two? Two ways. Number one, they're using polarization language. Which polarization is that second stage of development us now, even at they're not even at three, they're not even at three, they're not even at one. Yeah, yeah. And so the other thing that we know, one of the things that fuels and is connected to polarization, is the emotion of fear. So when you have a leader that dials up the dial of fear. They are dialing up polarization. Now just think, in what other way would we say we want a leader to dial up ineffectiveness? It's ridiculous, but it's happening across the globe. The other last thing I want to say about leaders before we move to those strategies for polarization is how important, critically, critically important the leader in organizations, in communities, in countries, how important their role is, and that going back to those, those stages of development, in the 1000s of groups, organizations that we have worked with at Deep Sea, we've never seen an organization that is more developed than its leaders. Now that's not because leaders are somehow better, smarter, whatever. It's because leaders set the bar and create the tone in organizations. And so once again, we need to think about we are presented with incredibly challenging
Greg Voisen
problems, issues. Well, you know, could I add something absolutely there's a board of directors that sits in a company, usually if they're of any major size or consequence, and if they're hiring leaders who are supposed to be culturally diverse. But yet, maybe they did, and they didn't get the job done, they go back on their own fears. Yes, as a board of like our stock is falling. This is happening. What's happening? They find a leader that doesn't fit that rule, yeah, who's into the fear that instills that because they're looking for a result that they'd like to see, which would let me call it greater productivity, greater whatever. And they're doing just the opposite. They're actually frightening people. Yeah, and they're not getting anywhere with that particular philosophy, right? It's, it's a it's a slippery slope. It's not going anywhere that on the other hand, though, what? What would you say to. The Board of Directors of a company who you're addressing right now, let's just assume some people on a board are listening about this issue. I mean, look, we all get afraid at times. We're afraid of the economy. And I heard a statement Jonathan field saying, I want to add this. He said, uncertainty is your way to opportunity. If you can't get through uncertainty, you can't get the opportunity. But if you look at uncertainty as fearful, I think the whole world right now seems to be uncertain. It appears that way, but in my estimation, it's an illusion. We've never had more opportunity in our whole life than we have right now. Absolutely right. So to buy into that and then hire somebody that's going to instill additional feel is fear is absolutely crazy. I love what you said. So, yeah, absolutely off on all this. Your turn to talk. Yeah, well, and
Sara Taylor
you know, we know actually, from research, one of the antidotes to fear is hope, and that's essentially what you're talking about opportunity. Let's talk about the opportunities that we have here. So let's even just take the board that says, you know, we really don't want to talk about this dei stuff anymore, because it's just gotten kind of too contentious. So we're just not going to talk about it right to lean into. What are the opportunities there, and what are the opportunities that we're going to miss? The other thing is just the reality to those organizations that are are pulling back and saying, we're not going to talk Dei, we're not going to, you know, look at, literally, can't be a part of. And we can name some of the companies that have publicly come out, Tractor Supply. John Deere, you know, to those organizations, I say what you're doing is doing a fabulous job at preparing your workforce and your workplace for the 1950s
Greg Voisen
Yeah, you're gone longer in the 1950s so that being said, that's a really important point. Look, you work right, not quite smack dab in the middle of this country and not quite smack dab the bread belt. But the reality is, is that today, if, if we're not going to address that, and you can show financially, let's say that Sara Taylor's firm can actually show, after we completed our program, whether it took a year or two years for you to drag these numbers together, that what we did had an impact in these 12 categories, right? So could you speak with us about a great success you've had after C consultings come in and actually worked with the employees to make it a better place to work and a more inclusive place and more culturally diverse? Yeah, I'll
Sara Taylor
talk first to the ones that folks might think are obvious, and then I really want to add a couple that aren't so obvious, because this work touches every aspect of the organization, because it's about how we think so, a couple that were that might be more obvious to folks we had one particular organization who a specific segment of their organization, a call center in particular, that continually had the lowest engagement scores. I mean, we're talking like, you know, 40% kind of a thing, and it, I'm sorry, I don't remember the exact percent, but it was like an exponential jump in their engagement scores, and their executives attributed it all to the work that we did, those are obvious. That's about inclusion. It's about the environment, right? Another that's obvious. Organization that had done kind of, your typical dei work for years and had a regular yearly kind of hiring process where they'd bring in, you know, hundreds of folks. And even though availability of bipoc folks in their population, in their community, was 25% they couldn't get past hiring more than 6% and with our process of actually developing folks that were making those decisions, they were able to increase that to 35% and they've maintained it for a number of years. So those, yeah, as substantial right now, those are the obvious, but I'll give you a couple more that aren't so obvious, but one particular client that the CEO literally stopped one of the training sessions that we were in right in the middle, and he said, I'm sorry. I know this is important, but I just have to stop and say I have completely approached our budgeting process from the wrong perspective. I can tell I've been approaching it from. That third mindset, and right now, because they were in the middle of budget season, he said, right now, I can tell you, we're going to change our budgeting process. You don't think about budgeting process as something that, but it's about how we think, right? Yeah. And then another where I'll just mention it real quickly, an organization that was kind of in the continual M and A cycles, right? And when they were going through the process with us, their executive team, they were also going through a acquisition, and they had the same measures that they would measure with all of their past acquisitions and and mergers, and their scores were significantly higher, significantly sooner. And once again, it was those executives themselves that said it's because of this work that we've been doing to really identify our filters and how we had a filter driven culture that we were asking these folks to move into.
Greg Voisen
Well, it's just goes to, you know, I don't know how long ago is that Rita McGrath was on here. And, you know, look, if you're a visionary and a leader, you have to be able to look forward. You have to be able to see and in the last two cases, you cited the individuals connected the dots. And you know, the reality is this is all one big patchwork quilt, and everything is interconnected, and this is a very key part now for the person who's a leader out there in a position of leadership, how can these individuals use the principles in your book to create more equitable and inclusive workplaces, because, you know, they may be sitting here listening. Is going okay? Great. I understand. I have unconscious filters. I have biases. I have whatever. I've never really addressed these I don't understand it much. What little sound advice could you just give to somebody other than, let's go buy the book, right? You're going to write. But the reality is, what could you tell them? It would be worth it, right now,
Sara Taylor
yeah, two. I'll give two different things. One is, if you think about there's so much that our filters are doing that's all in our unconscious, and the place where we can intervene is when they pop a thought to our conscious mind. Now typically, and the vast majority of us, like 85% of us, and again, this from that assessment, operate in what I call the passive conscious process. So our filters create our conscious thought and then our conscious thought, we don't do anything. We just pass it along to a behavior. So whatever our filters say, that's the behavior we do, conscious thought is really not doing anything. So I talk in the book about the active conscious process, where once that comes up from my filters, I'm able to check and challenge that, and I'm able to sort through, what if that information is biased information? What if that information actually isn't true? What if that information isn't helpful to me, isn't helpful to the person that I'm interacting with that helps me to be more effective in that particular interaction? The other real easy that even if you aren't doing that developmental work, is assume positive intent. So when we have filter fights, that is, I've got very different filters from the other person. We're in a conflict, we're in a misunderstanding. We don't see it as filters. My filters are judging them negatively. They're rude, they're unprofessional, they're this, that or the other. If we stop and assume positive intent, we can get to a bet a different place. Assume positive intent and then assume different filters that helps us to understand where they're coming from. And some folks will say, Well, yeah, but, like, does everybody have positive intent? You know, I have asked, like, literally 10s of 1000s that certainly no scientific survey, but in my presentations, like 10s of 1000s of people, and I've said, Okay, I've got an assumption that the vast majority of us show up every day with positive intent. What do you think? And everybody says, Yeah, I mean seriously, Greg, who shows up and says, I really want to be an ogre in the workplace today, like, I just really want to be a jerk. Oh, we don't know what. Why are there misunderstandings then? Because I don't know how my filters are clouding my perception of others, and also dictating for me how I respond to them,
Greg Voisen
well, and also your decision making process. And I, you know, look, I a lot of my listeners already know this. I work with Hypnotherapist. So you got the unconscious, the subconscious, yeah, the conscious. Yes, and the super conscious, that's super consciousness. So if you go all the way down to the subconscious, which you don't really realize until you, I'm not saying work with a hypnotherapist, but until you really realize how much has been, as in, is been embedded in there that can be released to activate your potential, right? Yes, and, and I think that that is a place where a lot of people miss, because your potential is on in unlocking what's in that subconscious, right? Absolutely, yeah. So I would just say to get to this point of where you say unconscious pilters, that's right, but as soon as you recognize that they were unconscious, they're now conscious. Now you said, Well, they're conscious, but you're not doing anything about them, because you're just conscious. So that brings me to a question that you talk about the danger of tractionless transactions in what you call the DEI effort, what are some of the common pitfalls organizations face in this area? And I'm not laughing at it. I'm just saying, oh boy, do I get this one. And how can they avoid them?
Sara Taylor
Yeah, yeah. Well, think back again. If we're thinking about we're trying to solve a PhD level problem, and we've got a high school level of math ability,
Greg Voisen
yeah.
Sara Taylor
Are you ever going to solve that PhD level problem? You might have some guesses that work. And then what do you do? You look to other organizations that are operating at that high school level as well. Oh, they do this. And they're a great company. We'll do that too. And so we keep churning out activity after activity. Well, they do this particular thing, we'll do that thing. Will they do that particular thing? We'll do that thing without actually developing the ability first, it's when you develop the ability to create greater equity, the ability to create greater inclusion in our spaces. That's what you need to do first. That's where you get the traction. Then even doing the same kinds of activities, if you will, implement an erg. But just think for yourself, implement an erg from that second stage of polarization. And trust me, I've seen a number of organizations that have done it. You think they're going to be successful? Absolutely not. And then what happens? You get it, it tanks, and then the next leader that comes in says, Yeah, you know, we tried that, not going to do it again, right? So it's about approaching those things from that higher stage of development, where you can see the full complexity of what's involved and you can be more effective. That's where you get the transformation and the traction.
Greg Voisen
No, it reminds me of Einstein's definition of insanity that I'm trying to do something the same way and expecting a different result, right? So I didn't say that exactly right, but the reality is, is what it is you've got to try something different, and you have to try it from a different perspective. Then you speak about microaggressions are going to serve as manifest manifestations of unconscious filters. What can be done to reduce this occurrence of everyday interactions like that? So look, those are micro aggressions. I get it. It's not like I'm full on blown crazy here, but I'm partially crazy. I'm crazy over what you do and who you are, right? And I don't like it, but I'm not saying anything about it. That's what's lying underneath me, right? Yeah, so I can see that those can be constant agitators, absolutely not always addressed.
Sara Taylor
Yes. And here's another area where organizations fall into the pitfall. They say, Okay, we're gonna stop microaggression so, you know, you'll see some that'll just say, Okay, so just, you know, stop microaggressing, yeah, or just go be inclusive, kind of a thing, right, without morality that we're right, right with, again, without developing the ability. So the other thing is understanding microaggressions come from. I alluded to this earlier, and I really dig into this. In my book, there are three types of filters and microaggressions come from. The filter that is the most difficult to be conscious of, and the most difficult to shift. So we start with the filters that are easier to be conscious of, easier to shift. Those are individual filters, like my preferences. I have a preference for small talk. I have a I have the personal personality of. Extrovert. I have the preference for purple and polka dots. All of those are individual filters. Those are easy for me to identify and shift once I learn some of these mechanisms. The second is actually where you started around cultural norms. Those are group filters. I have the group filter of direct communicator as an example. It's tied to my group, and it's I'm I think of it as the norm, and so once I learn how to check and challenge my individual filters, then I'm able to move to the little bit more difficult the group and that, and only that am I able to identify the systemic filters that I may have. Over and over again, we see organizations that will just come out and say, Yeah, everybody's got unconscious bias. You need to acknowledge that. And you know, it's just something that we all have, and so just become aware of it,
Greg Voisen
yeah, like that help. It's like, you know, I don't know. It's like getting a cut and deciding to just let it bleed and not put a band aid on it, right? I know that's kind of sounds like a stupid analogy, but in essence, that's what it is, because it's continuing to bleed now, and, and I think a lot of companies are bleeding this way, and you've brought attention to how to find a band aid and how to stop the bleeding. And actually, hey, look, if you need stitches, we can actually do some stitches for you as well. Yeah, and it won't scar. When we're done, you're not going to have a scar, exactly. So, you know, in summing up this interview, what role does self reflection? That's a big password, right? Means a lot of things to a lot of people play in developing the ability to what you call filter ship, and how can individuals and in incorporate this into their daily routines? Because it really starts with me, yep, right? Yep, before I get into a team, before I work inside a company, before I do anything. This is the person that walks their dog up and down the street. And instead of saying hi to the neighbor and trying to find what out what's going on is, you know, not being very nice, or, yeah, or they're going, Oh, well, that person is of a different color, or that person is of a different nationality, I'm not going to talk to them. I'm just going to keep walking my dog. Yeah, yeah, you're
Sara Taylor
spot on that self awareness is actually the first step, right? In fact, we are in the filter shift process. I identified a number of key shifts that we need to make in order to become more effective, and they all roll up into three big buckets. It's first see self, then see others, and then see approach. And so that first stuff step is all, what are my filters? How are they dictating how I see the world, how I show up in the world? And I have to start there, because if I don't, I continue to judge others. They're the ones that are different. They're the ones that are the problem. They're the ones that need to change, even if I don't really consciously think that my filters are telling me that. So I need to start with myself. What does that mean for leaders? You can't delegate this work. You can't just say, Yes, go ahead and just do that. I need to develop. I need to see my own filters before I can fully see the filters of others, and before I can then shift my approach. Now, the
Greg Voisen
also, wouldn't you say that starts with personal self responsibility? Absolutely you're you're responsible for yourself. I mean, if you go start blaming other people for who you are and what you are. That doesn't work. You're the only one responsible for who you've become, regardless of who else you want to blame. Yeah, you want to blame Joe or Sally or whatever. Forget it, because it isn't them, it's you.
Sara Taylor
Yeah, you're also the one that is fully responsible for the stage of development that you're in exactly. And if you think about this work, I think most folks that are resistant think, well, you want me to do this just to help out those folks that are marginalized, and that's not me. So you're actually working against my self interest. Well, in actuality, we're all working against with with your self interest, because this is about your individual effectiveness, regardless of your identity. And I do want to, because I'm cognizant of the fact Greg that we I didn't answer that question about polarization. We gave a tease. I do want to give those strategies. Can I? Can I do that just real quick before we close? Yeah. So. First of all. And again, we know this because it's developmental it's kind of like, okay, you got someone in second grade, what homework do you give them so they can move to third grade? We know this. And the homework for someone that is in polarization is to focus on the commonalities, the similarities. What do we all have in common? What's the goal that we all share? Now? Not only is that the strategy, but I want to talk about a pitfall that almost everybody falls into. We have leaders that are even just in individual conversations. We've got this polarizing kind of a thing, back and forth. You say it's it's a, I say it's B. What do we tend to do? We tend to list a whole bunch more data and information. So Greg, I want you to see it's B, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. What we know from this developmental just like a fifth grader is not, excuse me, a second grader is not going to take in fifth grade homework. The same is true for someone in polarization. They actually resist more information and they resist hearing more about the other perspective, I hear it over and over again, where people say, like with the political divide, okay, if you typically watch Fox, watch CNN. If you typically watch CNN, watch Fox. Guess what? That's going to get you more polarized. Don't do that.
Greg Voisen
No. So important, you know, and in this focus, so much of this is our egos, okay, and the end, they're there, and we haven't talked about it, but I'm sure if people get the book, you're gonna realize that, you know, it's something you have to learn to live with. It's not going away 100% but you can adjust and learn to live with it in a new way, a new perspective. Yeah, by asking important PhD questions when you're ready to make that move. And I think for all my listeners, look thinking at the speed of bias. I hope you can think that fast. But the reality is, is that you need to, in today's work environment and for your companies who are listening, to become more innovative, become more creative, to have higher levels of productivity, to have more inclusion and diversion and all the word is that IQ is descriptors. You really need to go to Sara's website. It's, it's basically deep sea SCE consulting.com to learn more about what she's doing. Sara, it's been a pleasure having you on the show, sharing some just we we got off some of the I had a lot of questions for we got a lot of them, but we didn't get to some of them, but the reality is is we got to the ones that were most important, right?
Sara Taylor
Yes, absolutely. And there's just so much more, but folks can grab the book to learn the more. And thank you, Greg. I very much appreciate the opportunity. And thanks to the listeners also for tuning in.
Greg Voisen
Thank you. Have a wonderful rest of your day.
Sara Taylor
Thank you as well.
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Inside Personal Growth with Greg Voisen · Podcast 1150: Boundary Badass with Jan and Jillian YuhasIn this episode, we had the pleasure of diving deep into the world of relationship dynamics and personal empowerment with Jan and Jillian Yuhas, the masterminds behind the transformative book, Boundary Badass: A Powerful Method for Elevating Your Value and Relationships. This insightful session not only explored the nuances of establishing healthy boundaries but also provided practical tips on enhancing personal and professional relationships.
Understanding “Boundary Badass”
Jan and Jillian Yuhas, both holders of Masters in Marriage and Family Therapy and certified mediators, have penned Boundary Badass to guide individuals through the often challenging journey of boundary setting. The book is designed to empower you to voice your value and reclaim your power within any relationship, be it with family, partners, colleagues, or friends. Throughout our discussion, the Yuhas sisters delved into key concepts from their book, which has been making significant waves in the realms of personal transformation and conflict resolution.
Key Takeaways from the Podcast
Our conversation highlighted several transformative insights:
The Importance of Voicing Value: Jan and Jillian stressed the importance of recognizing and communicating one’s worth in a balanced and assertive manner. They shared strategies from their book on how to articulate needs without guilt or fear, which resonates deeply in both personal and professional settings.
Practical Steps to Establish Boundaries: Listeners were treated to actionable advice on identifying and setting healthy boundaries. The Yuhas’ approach involves clear steps and thoughtful reflection, empowering individuals to establish limits that foster respect and understanding.
Navigating Conflict: With their extensive background in mediation, Jan and Jillian provided expert advice on resolving conflicts by applying principles from their book. They emphasized the role of empathy and active listening in transforming potentially divisive situations into opportunities for growth and connection.
Why “Boundary Badass” Is a Must-Read
For anyone struggling with setting boundaries or feeling undervalued in their relationships, Boundary Badass offers not just theories but practical, tested solutions. The book ranks impressively in categories like Family Conflict Resolution and Personal Transformation Self-Help, underscoring its impact and the high regard readers have for it.
Join the Conversation
This podcast episode is a must-listen for anyone looking to enhance their interpersonal skills and thrive in all aspects of life. Jan and Jillian Yuhas have provided a roadmap to personal empowerment that is both inspiring and practical. Listen to the full episode to gain more profound insights into their strategies and make sure to check out Boundary Badass to start your journey towards stronger, more respectful relationships.
You may also refer to the transcripts below for the full transciption (not edited) of the interview.
Interview Transcipt -Not EditedEmailDownloadNew TabGreg Voisen
Welcome back to Inside Personal Growth. This is Greg Voisen, the host of Inside Personal Growth. And joining me from Dallas, Texas, is Jan and Jillian Yuhas. And here's the book Boundary Badass, and the subtitle is "A Powerful Method for Elevating Your Value and Relationships. Well, good day to you both. How are you?
Jan Yuhas
How are you?
Jillian Yuhas
We're great.
Greg Voisen
Good. It's good to have you on the show. And obviously, as twins, you look like twins.
Jan Yuhas
We are identical twins.
Greg Voisen
Who was born first?
Jillian Yuhas
I was.
Jan Yuhas
Jillian.
Jillian Yuhas
We're three minutes apart.
Greg Voisen
Three minutes, okay. Well, good for you guys and for my listeners, we're going to be both talking about the personal side of this and the business side as it relates. And I want to give our listeners a little bit of information about you. Both of you are MA and MFT marriage and family therapists, and you inspire individuals on a transformative journey to build remarkable relationships, elevate their value and master the art of setting boundaries. I think that setting boundaries, part you guys is the one that most people have the hardest time with, packed with practical advice and techniques individuals can navigate challenging conversations. I just had a lady on with right now, radical candor. How about that? Can we be candid? And I hope we're going to be candid in this podcast, conversations with ease and cultivating more alignment in your relationships with your family, romantic partners, colleagues, friends and more, and their collective wisdom at boundary badass method will create a path toward unlocking success in personal and professional relationships. Again, you can learn more about Jillian and Jan at www, Jan and jillian.com and I think they did that based on the birth order. Is that? How that got who got billing there? No, no,
Jan & Jillian Yuhas
No, no, it's based on alphabetical order.
Greg Voisen
Alphabetical order, okay, well, that is really a great introduction for you guys. And look, the story behind the story is, I always like to get this out for readers and listeners to the YouTube, what really kind of inspired you to go down to this boundary, badass method, and how has your personal journeys, each of yours, kind of influenced the development, not only of the book, but of the business that you run, which is coaching counseling, that people can go to the website and connect with them and hire their services. How'd that all come about? Yeah,
Jan Yuhas
so we have a little bit of a personal background and professional that led us down our journey of helping people set boundaries and consulting with professionals and families in regards to conflict resolution. Our personal story is we grew up in a rural town of 900 people in the middle of nowhere, moved to a metropolitan city of 3 million and that was a huge culture shock from us. We were a little bit naive and a little bit too trusting of everybody that we welcome into our life, and we learned the hard way that we needed to have stronger boundaries. And so that kind of became our personal pain point in life, and we figured out how to powerfully transition into finding and bridging the gap in our personal relationships, whether with friends or romantic partners. From a professional standpoint, we volunteered at a crisis hotline for teens who ran away from home for about three years. That inspired us to into conflict resolution and inspired us to get our masters in marriage and family psychology. That later on, fueled us into developing our boundary badass method, in running our first entrepreneurial business, and later on, we went into helping others learn how to set boundaries by applying our method, and that inspired us to write our book
Greg Voisen
well. So question would be, Do the two of you have, like, an office where people come or do you do most of this off of zoom or, I mean, you said you started with young kids who ran away, right? And I hear that loud and clear. That's a really tough one. Between the relationship with the parents and the child, or a sibling and a child, or whatever really instituted that. And so how do people basically work with the two of you?
Jillian Yuhas
So we work with all of our clientele online, across the board, at all of our three companies that we have, and so we do virtually zoom or calls, and we're able to really help people navigate the disconnects or discord in their relationships with the people that they're coming to us about. And so we've been able to help people globally, around the world, just by able to be virtually online,
Greg Voisen
no cool and YouTube channel. Can my listeners pick up on some of your conversations that you've had, or at least the learnings through a YouTube channel that you guys have?
Jan Yuhas
Well, you actually don't have a YouTube channel. We have lots of different blog. We're more writers. Hence our book wrote. So most of the time people can hear us in terms of when we're on podcasts. We've been doing a podcast tour or through lots of our different writing materials, on our blogs, on all of our websites, good.
Greg Voisen
Well, they'll be able to hear them from our podcast, because we're going to dive right into this. So if you would look I remember this from the guy who wrote, and this is personal relationships, not business right now, but men are for from Mars. Women are from Venus. He was on the show a long, long time ago, and one of the statements he used to say, Would you rather be right, or would you rather be in love? And I think one of the two things that happens in a personal relationship is this brightness, and then people give ultimatums. They don't really set boundaries. They just say, Well, I'm right and you're wrong, right? It's like, okay, so can you elaborate on why boundaries are more effective for maintaining healthy relationships.
Jillian Yuhas
So when it comes to setting healthy boundaries, you're coming from a we mindset, where you're actually trying to bridge the gap between two different perspectives, so each person has a voice in that discussion, where that way, you're trying to figure out, how can we come to a middle agreement, or one that's mutually beneficial for the relationship, that's going to allow both people to chime in and like, Okay, I prefer this perspective. The other person has this perspective, and then finding that middle ground, that's where the negotiation part takes place. But then you end up forming this beautiful agreement that allows both of you to honor the relationship in a way that allows you to move forward.
Jan Yuhas
Yeah, and each person feels heard and understood. Where, if somebody's setting an ultimatum, they're projecting conditional terms onto the relationship. And what happens when we project if you don't do x, then y is going to happen consequences, more than likely, that person is going to feel backed into a corner, and they're not going to feel heard or understood. And so when we set ultimatums or unilateral from a unilateral perspective, it's actually creating distrust and resentment in that connection.
Greg Voisen
Well, it's really our ego frequently saying, I'm right, you're wrong, and perspective, and unfortunately, everyone's got an ego, but you've got to learn how to live with it. Doesn't mean it's going to go away. It just means you need to kind of control it. And I often think that if people, when they were either in an argument or disagreement, would take a deep breath, just breathe in, take a moment before they say that thing that puts the foot in their mouth to somebody else that they care about and respect on a team and business, or your spouse or your lover, or whoever it might be, because those are this comes down to what you talk about is value, and in chapter three, you discuss the importance of becoming invaluable. How does recognizing one's value influence the ability to set effective boundaries? Because frequently, when people think they're so valuable, right, from an egotistical standpoint, like whatever I say is great, whatever you have to say, I don't even hardly acknowledge it. That creates all kinds of problems. Could you speak about that if you would?
Jan Yuhas
You know, often when someone's operating from their ego, they're operating actually from a place of emotion. And what we want to do is shift to our value system, because then we're operating from a place of logic, believe it or not, because that's our heart centered thinking when we operate from a place of value, and values are universally understood by both parties, where emotions are often misunderstood, because it's usually just that person's perspective. So someone who's operating from their ego or feels entitled is actually coming from a place of insecurity and. Not and is not having a demeanor of being high value. It's actually the opposite. And so when we're high value, we're operating from our core value system, and that's our authentic truth, in order to meet our needs, but in a constructive way.
Greg Voisen
So what are some of those emotional triggers, and how do we maintain kind of healthy boundaries, because people can be emotionally triggered by a lot of different things, right? That set us off about the way somebody actually brushes their teeth, combs their hair, does some something at work, performs something, and it gets under people's skin a lot of time because they allow it. What kind of emotional triggers can we actually shift and utilize to maintain healthy boundaries?
Jillian Yuhas
So, I think if someone's feeling like ignored or feeling, you know, feeling like they're not be are being dismissed. They might value communication. So our emotional triggers are the opposite of our value. So we want to identify our top five values when it comes to the workplace and professional relationships, or even in our romantic relationships or friends and family. So trying to identify those top five values can be really helpful. And so when it comes to certain triggers, our triggers are the opposite, but our values meet those emotional needs of those triggers. So if you feel maybe abandoned or betrayed by someone, for instance, you might Value Trust, or you might value connection, so understanding that your value is the opposite the trigger, which is also going to help you meet your needs when communicating from a place of value.
Jan Yuhas
Also, our emotional triggers, a lot of times, may not even be relevant to the situation we're dealing with in the present moment. A lot of times, these emotional triggers we have are unresolved wounds from childhood that are being projected onto our current relationships today, and that's usually because that person hasn't healed that underlying trigger that they went through. And so it's coming out from being suppressed for so long. And so if a parent, for example, ignored you growing up, and you didn't have a voice today in your romantic relationship or in a professional relationship, if you feel that somebody is ignoring you and not letting you have a voice that's going to re bring up that trigger that you went through if it hasn't been healed.
Greg Voisen
So look, adverse childhood experiences are something that you know. It's, I'm not saying it's commonplace knowledge, but obviously, with you guys being marriage, family counselors, you understand this and just therapists and you know, people take that test for Ace, they're going to see things that adversely either they're going to rank on a scale one to 10. Hey, I'm a 10. And the reality is, I had a lot of crap going on, right? And at Kaiser, they did a study with 144,000 people, and they found that a lot of they started to utilize this, just so that you guys realize this, and you probably do. You know, when men or women that would come in that were overweight, right, they were trying to affect healthcare costs with the ACE adverse childhood experience, most women were gaining weight because they wanted to be pushed away because something happened. They were raped early on, they had an adverse childhood experience with somebody so on. So that, that brings me to this, do you guys work with people when it comes to these adverse childhood experiences, and if so, how do you get to the deep, underlying emotional conditions that are causing this, which are really affecting their ability to actually, even, you know, emotional triggers or to set some boundaries.
Jan Yuhas
So we actually, we actually work as coaches and as consultants, not as therapists. So when we are working with people, we will, more or less, are in helping them work through problem solving in order to figure out how they are going to put new habits into place to move forward, and sometimes, if there is adverse patterns or unfavorable habits that they're engaging in, such as maybe procrastination or perfectionism, most of those adverse behaviors come from some sort of childhood wound. So that's when we will get into the deeper context of why maybe that person feels not worthy of having success, and why they are procrastinating, and maybe that's why they're feeling like a failure in that moment. So that's where it comes down to their belief, core belief system. And so then that's where we get into the deeper root cause of what's holding them back from reaching success, romantically or professionally?
Greg Voisen
Okay, that's valid. I've told this story before, but you know, as as a young person, I still today avoid conflict as a result of conflict that happened in my family between my mother and my father. So I got involved in the middle of it once, when I was seven years old, my dad picked me up by my shirt and threw me against the wall and said, Don't you ever come in between your mother and I again. So as a very young person, that's a very impressionable time in your life. And I can tell you that I was really shaking afterwards and didn't really know what to do. And I'm sure that this has happened in 1000s and 1000s of households. But then people don't really realize, well, you know, I avoid conflict as a result of that, honey, you know, they don't make, they don't make the correlation between that, right? It was like, hey, that happened when you were seven years old. You're now x years old, and you're still avoiding conflict, you'll do anything to avoid conflict, right?
Jillian Yuhas
Right. Our adult behaviors and patterns and the way we operate is usually a reflection of some of our childhood and so if we don't work through those childhood wounds that may be unresolved, they are going to show up in our adult life, and they tend to actually will get worse with tying the more we ignore them or suppress them.
Jan Yuhas
Yeah, because most of our belief systems and thoughts are developed from around infancy to age seven. Now, obviously we can go through traumatic events as we age and older, experiences that can still leave an impact on our belief system. But really our core, core fundamental beliefs are usually from embassy up to age seven.
Greg Voisen
Yeah. And I think one of the ways to heal, what for me, was kind of Gestalt therapy. What is it that my father didn't know? And for me, when I took the role in the chair in Gestalt therapy, that playing the role of my father, I really understood, and then it really, it really helped me to heal. It really helped me to get beyond it. Now, you guys explain the concept of we mindset versus me mindset? Well, obviously we see one is as a whole and one is as an I, meaning I when it comes to sounding boundaries and relationships. Can you explain the concept?
Jillian Yuhas
Yeah, so the whole we mindset sort of derived, because as twins in business, we've always had to consider how our decision making process may impact the other one. And so we've always consulted or thought about, you know, what does that look like if we make this decision now, sometimes in our personal lives too, we might also reflect and think, How am I making decision? Is it going to pack impact my, you know, sibling and a lot of times, if we think about making decisions selfishly, we actually may hurt someone or hurt the connection or relationship. So when we're making decisions that involve another party, we actually need to think about how it could impact the other person and what their perspective may be as well, because if we come from a mean mindset and only thinking of ourselves, we could actually damage the connection.
Greg Voisen
Yeah. So question as twins, this is awful wall question in minute, that the two of you ever get tired of one another?
Jan Yuhas
Everyday.
Greg Voisen
Everyday. How do you manage that emotional bridge where you could come back together again and go, oh, okay, I I'm without my twin, right?
Jillian Yuhas
I think, yeah, I think that's just sort of, if you're in business with a twin, that's very common, and I think too a lot of even sisters experience the you know...
Jan Yuhas
Lot of family businesses are going to have family dynamics that also play out in the, you know, functionality of the foundation of how the business operates. Um, yeah. But we, we we have our clearly defined roles. So it's not that we, I mean, we think differently. So that's usually, I think, where we might have clashes. I'm a big picture thinker. She's a more detailed thinker. So sometimes we're like, I don't get your perspective, and she's like, I don't get yours. So then we have to, you know, work through that and communicate to figure out what's the next step in sometimes we're saying the same exact thing, or have we always, usually have the same end goal, but how we get there is a little bit different.
Greg Voisen
So yeah, your personality profiles must be pretty interesting that you took. I'd love, I'd love to see those. So in your experience, what are some of the most common boundary violations that people face in personal and professional relationships, and how can they really address them? So let's, let's use the business relationship as one here to look at a boundary violation. Can you tell us a case or a story where you worked with somebody is working in a team, and there were violations of boundaries, and this affected the relationship, not only of the two individuals, but actually the other people inside the team.
Jillian Yuhas
Yeah, so when it comes to working with teams, if you have a team leader who thinks that they're in charge and in control, sometimes they not. May not be respectful. Example of other members. And so in that moment, whenever you have two team members sort of at their wits end with each other, it can definitely derail productivity and performance amongst other team members, because it's going that conflict itself is going to bleed into other areas of you know, team projects. And so when it comes to working with teams, we need to help understand how come even the team leader thinks, even though they may be the lead, it doesn't mean you treat people below man who or that, yeah, inferior. It doesn't mean you're the superiority person, but the same time you should be leading and showing and setting the more or less example of, how can we all collectively come together and work as you know, collaborate, collaboration and team effort. And so being a leader actually means talking with your team, not talking at your team, or thinking they're below you, and so teaching them how to understand each other better and use discovery questions. It's just key to understanding, getting to the root of that conflict, and then setting boundaries around collaboration and teamwork.
Greg Voisen
Anything you want to add or no?
Jan Yuhas
No.
Greg Voisen
You're the big picture thinker. So look, we, we, we did talk about this, but you talked about the unresolved childhood words, which, which, I was just telling about one of my own on adult boundary setting. So for me, what happened is I set the boundaries that said, Hey, I don't want conflict, right? That was my boundary. How can individuals begin to heal these wounds, to establish kind of healthier boundaries? Because for me, it doesn't always work when I try and avoid conflict.
Jan Yuhas
Well, conflict is inevitable, so trying to avoid it is gonna you're setting your kind of self up for failure in that moment, because we instead, we have to figure out how to effectively resolve the conflict. So even if conflict, yelling or screaming or whatever, makes you feel uncomfortable, we need to figure out in that moment, you might think to yourself, Okay, this does not I don't feel comfortable the situation. What can I do? And so in that moment, you would express like, you know, what, like heightened emotion or yelling and screaming really makes me feel uncomfortable. I need to take a step away from this. And I'm going to, you know, take a break, and then let's revisit this when we've all calmed down, like tomorrow morning or tomorrow night or later that day. So in that moment, you're setting a personal boundary for yourself, because you can't handle the escalated, you know, screaming or yelling, but you still want to revisit it, that conflict, which is the key component, is to go back and resolve the problem when everybody's calmer.
Jillian Yuhas
Also, too, you could set a boundary in that moment and say, you know, it seems like we're not hearing each other, or we're not on the same page. I value constructive communication. How can we talk in a way that shows respect for each of our perspectives as we navigate these differences?
Greg Voisen
Yeah, those are good points. And I think, you know, it one of the things that I learned in getting my degree in psychology was, you know, kind of repeat, this is what I heard you say, Right? Is this what I heard you say, so that the other person is being heard and felt like they're being heard and in and in my case, I I'm using myself as a guinea pig here. But I think it's not an uncommon one. I bet you there's a lot of people like me that literally avoid conflict, or say, hey, let's revisit it at a different time. And frequently it never gets revisited. It Like It ends with just, oh, we were going to revisit that, you know, emotional upset. But people don't traverse the bridge again, to come back together to try and do a we approach to it, right?
Jillian Yuhas
Why? I think it's, yeah, that's why I think it's important to set a time or day of when you're going to revisit, if you're able to have that conversation in that moment, so that way it's you're not shoving the problem under the rug and saying, I'm just going to avoid this. You're saying, you know, this isn't we're not hearing each other right now, so we're not going to able to come to a resolution. How about we revisit this tomorrow at noon, so where we can both have a discussion to each of us bring our three perspectives that we can work through to try to find that mutual middle ground that we both can live with.
Jan Yuhas
Yeah, the key is the follow through, and in terms of establishing a plan of action, that's where I think a lot of people fall short in their boundaries, is they say they're going to do something, but there's no plan of action in place of how that need is going to be met. And so the plan of action is the key component to following through on agreements and having integrity with who we are as individuals, because that's our character showing up.
Greg Voisen
Most certainly. And I think that plan of action is so important when people are trying to resolve conflict or do almost anything, because you know, as you know, when somebody reaches an impasse or they can't make a decision or they can't move forward. Forward, they'll just push it to the side for a while, and it gets put in this in basket that's like literally piling up with stuff that that is still sitting there from six months ago, whatever it might be, just because they didn't want to do it now.
Jan Yuhas
I was just gonna say, and when we stay silent and we don't address these things, it actually shows up in other areas of our life or shows up as physical symptoms within our body. And we can develop autoimmune conditions. We start to develop like, you know, anger gets stored in the liver, fear gets stored in the kidney. So all these emotions don't just, like, go away, they get stored in the body. And then we can start to have physical ailments due to the unresolved emotion.
Greg Voisen
Well, I really appreciate your mind, body, spirit connection. And for my listeners, that's important, because we do know that whatever upset you have shows up in the body in some way, right? So whether it be, you know, it triggered an emotional some, something very emotional triggered a response in your body. So you had a pain in your knee or your leg or your back, or your kidneys, or whatever, we do know, it shows up. So in the book, you talk about the importance of communicating and communication and cultivating connection. Obviously, we all know that. But how can assertive communication transform relationships when setting boundaries?
Jillian Yuhas
So assertive communication is using a medium pitch, tone of voice, and you're coming from a place of constructiveness, so you're trying to, even though you might be very honest and transparent, and you the receiver may not want to hear certain things, but at the same time, you're trying to also be respectful of how you do convey your message. And so assertive communication is the best way to actually address problems, because you're not raising your voice, you're not being manipulative. You're not, you know, throwing stones under you know at them passively. You're not being submissive and just complying to whatever it is that they're saying, but you're really speaking authentically according to your truth and your value, which allows people to actually listen to what it is that you have to say, because you're showing up very competent, and you actually trust and believe in yourself that your message is worthy of being heard, and you're actually trying to resolve the problem by approaching it very respectfully in a sort of manner.
Greg Voisen
So look, your your book says that our voice is our power, right? And and I think that that's true. And I'll add to that, I think when people can learn to convey the message in an effective way, right? So even as a negotiators or even a podcaster, right, like me, it's like, how do you get the most important message across to accentuate that so people understand it, remember it, and know what it was, right? So the book that the yearbook discusses the challenges of maintaining consistency and boundary setting, I would say that's a key. What strategies would each of you recommend for individuals struggle struggling with this to basically maintain consistency. It's like, okay, one a day, I'm this way. The next day, I'm that way. You're unpredictable. You haven't set clear boundaries, right? It's there's, I would say that's probably in 90% of the cases, most people, it's issues is because they waffle from day to day on the boundaries they set.
Jan Yuhas
Yeah, if we're waffling day to day, then we're usually operating from our emotions and not from our values. So one of the exercises in the book is aligning to your value, assisting your top five values on a day to day basis. And you align to them by taking specific actions in your day. And they can be very simple such as, like, you know, I valued communication, so I let my friend know tomorrow night that I was going to be running five minutes late because I had a work meeting that I that was going to run over to meet her for dinner. So you're writing down simple alignments to your values on a day to day basis, because you're creating your authentic truth and aligning your integrity to your value system. So when you do show up in your relationships, it becomes much easier to set boundaries, because you are valuing your truth based on your core values, and communicating that if someone crosses your limits, it's going to go off in your body like an alarm system, and you're going to be like this does not feel good to me, what value do I need to express right now in order to be heard and understood and respected in that situation.
Greg Voisen
And or what value has been, I don't want to say compromised, right?
Jan Yuhas
Correct.
Greg Voisen
Because, you know if, if, usually people say, Well, I set a list of them. Values. And you would say, well, over the years, have those values changed? You're hopefully saying, No, the values haven't changed that much, just like your purpose, your purpose in life that you define, or your vision in life, or your mission in life, or your values that you have, all of that kind of gets lumped together even in the corporate environment, so that the corporations can create alignment of people moving in a singular direction toward a vision that the company has and that people understand that, and actually communicating that becomes a very big part, but not deviating it from it, but communicating it and staying on point with it, right? So this comes down to individuals, whether at home or at work, and it's you talk about it. It's called self worth, right? We all play with this one. How worthy Am I to really be XYZ, right? And when people start to question their worth, they then start to get how do you want to say again? They'll waffle right. So in boundary setting, how can individuals cultivate a stronger sense of self worth to become, as you call it, a true boundary, badass.
Jillian Yuhas
So, and this is living according to your values on a day to day basis, but then also nurturing that like self care and self love. I think it's so easy for people to go to the gym or take a walk outside and really get some of that physical care or create, you know, eat healthy meals, but a lot of people forget the self love component, which is that's where you're, you know, honoring your values, doing your value statements, also doing some deep belly breathing and really managing your emotions. Because when you manage your emotions and have that, like emotional regulation, it's so much easier, easier to effectively communicate and negotiate in your relationships. But that's also going to help you own your worth and not be fearful to speak up when there's discord or disconnects, because you're going to have this alignment with you who you are as a person, because you believe in who you are, and in order to speak up, you have to trust yourself.
Jan Yuhas
Yeah, the relationship with ourselves is the most important, and sometimes we need to do a self self reflection, like check it and go through, you know, what is not working for me in my life? How come this isn't working for me? So if we do some deeper introspection of who we are and our patterns, our own behaviors, of what is not bringing us fulfillment, then we can clarify what shifts we need to make in order to achieve greater fulfillment, whether it's in our career, whether it's with, you know, friends or family or you know,...
Jillian Yuhas
I think the biggest thing too is like our worth is in within us. You cannot find your worth outside of yourself or through other people.
Greg Voisen
Yeah, well, self love, self-compassion, self care, however you want to raise it. It is important. But I think let's go back to this for a second, because that questioning of self worth usually comes from childhood. Okay, so let's face it, hey, your parents tell you you should have been a straight A student. You weren't. You were the one that got C's and B's. You were supposed to become a doctor. So now what happens is you go out into the business world, and you didn't become the doctor. You became this great executive who made tons of money, way more than a doctor, but you're still questioning your self worth, because way back then, your parents wanted you to become a doctor. They wanted you to get straight A's. You didn't do either of those. What would you tell somebody who's sitting out there today, who's like literally looking at themselves, still questioning their self worth as a result of all of these things that they were told they believed they should have been, but they didn't become, but they actually become became more than what they were, but they still question their self worth.
Jan Yuhas
Yeah, when someone's questioning their self worth based on limiting beliefs that they've developed through childhood, then we kind of have to rewire the belief system in order to, you know, create these beliefs within themselves, that they are worthy of the success that they do have, and that they don't need to live out their parents goals or their parents vision. Their life is their own vision, and so finding acceptance with who they have become is a big part of them, learning to release the past and beliefs that no longer work for them today.
Jillian Yuhas
I think sometimes too, yeah, we have to make peace with our past and find forgiveness too, knowing sometimes our parents didn't know any better, and may try projected this expectation onto us as children into our adult life, but then at some point in time, we have to cut the umbilical cord and. Separate ourselves, knowing that our worth is based on who we are as individuals, not based on what someone else thought we should have been or wanted us to be.
Greg Voisen
I'll never forget a podcast I did with Marshall Goldsmith, who coaches some of the most highly acclaimed executives in the world, right? And you know, achievement is huge in every one of these people's lives, right? And we see them. We see them in the news. We see that sometimes they're not always great people, you know, have, you know, like Steve Jobs. Everyone said he was such a badass, right? Meaning, he was, he was not a great guy to work for, but on the other, on the other side, he would say, Hey, I'm coaching these people, and when is enough enough? You have five degrees, you're a doctor, you own two companies, you're making $20 million a year. You got Ferrari sitting in the driveway a house on the hill, and they're still saying it isn't enough, right? And so you kind of think to yourself, really, when does when can you help people make that connection that what's driving them is something that's false, not real.
Jan Yuhas
Sometimes the pain drives us to achieve great success in our lives. I think a lot of people who have reached great success have been driven by these unresolved wounds. But if you are basing your value or your self worth based on conditional terms, whether it be wealth success of reaching XYZ, you're robbing yourself of really finding your true worth and purpose in life, because your true value does not come from these things. Like you could lose all your money tomorrow. You could lose your house, your car, everything, that if you base your value and your worth on these external things, you're gonna feel very empty still on the inside, and so our true value and worth has to come internally.
Greg Voisen
Yeah, and I think we've seen it just recently that, you know, these people that are extremely driven. We just went through the Olympics. So you had Simone Biles, you had Phelps. Was there as well. All of them have had bouts with depression, deep depression, right? Admittedly, like, like, you know, because we swim 5000 miles just to prepare for this particular Olympics, because we've got to be the best that we can be. And they are extremely driven to be the best that they can be, but from a psychological standpoint, what they've found is there's it actually creates some challenges, doesn't?
Jan Yuhas
This is often due to usually, a lot of times is having an unhealthy parent, somebody with personality complexities, where the child didn't receive unconditional love. Their love was based on their achievements, whether it be in academics or extracurricular activities, sports, yeah. So when love is conditional, then they think that their worth is based on conditional terms that they are achieving in life.
Greg Voisen
You have to be the best for me to love you. Yes, that's unfortunate, but you guys have some of the answers in this book, boundary, badass. I want all my listeners to go out and get a copy. You can find more information about them, and it's just Jan and Jillian, j-i-l-l-i-a-n.com, you can go to that website, you can buy the book there. And I want to thank both of you ladies for being on the show and sharing your story, also sharing ideas and tips that my listeners could utilize. So if you're interested in contacting them about coaching, just go to that website, hit the coaching button. Also to speak. There's a speakers button there too, a book and a blog with articles. As they said, they blog more than they're on YouTube, so we'll make sure that they get you get to go to their blog. Thank you both for being on Inside Personal Growth and spending some time with our listeners today.
Jillian Yuhas
Yes, thank you for having us. We've enjoyed it.
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Inside Personal Growth with Greg Voisen · Podcast 1149: Neuroacrobatics Explained: Unlocking Human Potential Through Mind Body TechniquesIn the latest episode of Inside Personal Growth, we are thrilled to welcome the multi-talented Sage Rader, an individual who seamlessly blends creativity, mindfulness, and transformation in his work and life. Sage Rader’s unique approach to life and creativity has inspired countless individuals, and his insights are not just enlightening but truly transformative.
Exploring the Creative Mind
During the conversation, Sage delves deep into his creative journey, sharing how his artistic endeavors have been fueled by a profound sense of mindfulness and an unwavering commitment to personal growth. He explains how creativity isn’t just about producing art but about a holistic approach to life that involves staying present, embracing challenges, and continuously evolving.
Mindfulness as a Catalyst for Change
One of the highlights of the episode is Sage’s exploration of mindfulness as a powerful tool for personal and professional transformation. He shares practical tips and techniques for integrating mindfulness into daily routines, emphasizing how it can enhance creativity, boost productivity, and foster a deeper connection with oneself and others.
Transformation Through Authenticity
Sage Rader’s philosophy centers around the idea of living authentically and embracing one’s true self. In the podcast, he discusses the importance of authenticity in achieving personal growth and how it can lead to a more fulfilling and purpose-driven life. His stories and experiences serve as a reminder that true transformation begins with embracing who we are at our core.
A Conversation Filled with Wisdom
This episode of Inside Personal Growth is packed with wisdom, inspiration, and actionable insights. Whether you’re an artist, a mindfulness practitioner, or someone on a journey of self-discovery, Sage Rader’s words are sure to resonate with you. His approach to life is not only refreshing but also a testament to the power of creativity and mindfulness in fostering growth and transformation.
Join Us for This Inspiring Conversation
We invite you to tune into this episode and join us in welcoming Sage Rader to Inside Personal Growth. His journey is a powerful reminder that creativity, mindfulness, and authenticity are keys to unlocking our true potential. Listen in and discover how you, too, can embark on a journey of transformation.
Conclusion
As we wrap up this enlightening episode, we encourage you to reflect on the insights shared by Sage Rader. Whether it’s through art, mindfulness, or simply being true to yourself, there’s always a path to growth and transformation. Thank you for joining us on this episode of Inside Personal Growth, and stay tuned for more conversations with inspiring individuals like Sage Rader.
You may also refer to the transcripts below for the full transciption (not edited) of the interview.
Interview Transcipt -Not EditedEmailDownloadNew TabGreg Voisen
Welcome back to Inside Personal growth. This is Greg Voisen, the host of Inside Personal Growth. And I have Sage Rader joining me from Tampa, Florida, and we tried to do a podcast a few weeks back, and for some reason, it was my fault, although he has Gremlins in his microphone. The reality was, is that my video editor didn't like that, but Sage is an interesting man, and I'm going to basically tell my listeners a little bit about you. He is a breath artist, a biohacking pioneer, a violinist, poet and creator of breath church, an online community dedicated to self-healing and neuro acrobatics, a system of breath and Brain Games desired to create rapid, dynamic shifts in consciousness that show up in the real world and real time. Over the past two decades, his creative works been featured in W magazine, global wellness Institute's 2021 trend report on Brett work The New York Times, BBC, PBS, ITB and Cirrus XM, where he was in a competition for Grand Jury Prize at The sun dad's Film Festival. So after recovering from a series of near fatal medical conditions and rebuilding his brain and body back from scratch more than once, Sage now has the privilege to share his secrets with super celebrities, doctors, scientists, CEOs, as well as extreme trauma and cancer and chronic patient warriors, neuro, acro, or short, is designed to take the same secrets used by elite performers under most demanding circumstances and make them accessible to anyone, anyone with breath and brain he said his mission is to weave breath and brain games with Music and community to relieve the loneliness and pain epidemics driving the opioid epidemic. Well, good on you for that last one certainly needed. And you know the interesting thing is that Bruce crier, who introduced me to him. For many of you that already know, because Bruce has been on the show several times. He was the president of or CEO of Heart Math, and many of my listeners already know that. So, you know, I told the listeners just a tad bit about you just now, and obviously that's there, but there's always more underneath the hood than is always told that's under the hood. And I kind of like to let the listeners know that from you sage, what is it that's under the hood that you haven't told us that really drives you to not only the mission you have, but the work that you're doing?
Sage Rader
Wow, that's a great question. Let's start right with that. Shall we what's under the hood that I haven't told you? My joy comes from a place of incredible challenge, and the more challenged I am. Thus, oh, there's the Gremlin. Sorry, just, just for the listeners, I live near a military base. There's nothing we can talk that's Joe Tom and Tina, may or may not show up later, but that's Joe. I love it getting that early. Everybody know, you know, you know what you're in for this episode me and my gremlins. So what's under the hood my joy and it comes from a place of incapacity. So we're supposed to have this image that's very public, and then we talk about authenticity, but then we go back and burnish and polish our mask, our persona, that aspect of self that is most rewarded by society. And chronic pain and chronic quote, unquote illness produce weakness that dispense with that whole idea. And so I'm either authentic. I'm always this way, or very quickly, everyone's gonna see it, smell it, feel it, hear it, it's going to come out. So I want to encourage people from the beginning, if you're not crushing it, that's okay. If you're having a hard time and things are falling off or going sideways, that's okay. That is what gave me the skill set. It that has allowed me to operate in like super world. And so if you've got something that's going on in you that you don't love, that you maybe have some shame around that you'd like to polish up before you maybe bring it out to the dance to show people how You've crushed that old habit with this new one, and you can make money giving it to them, sit in that and ask yourself, what kind of lemonade can I make that the world needs? Who else is in this position right now that I can help? What's happened is because I've approached it that way, the people I've been able to help are cartoonishly successful, orders of magnitude beyond anything I could comprehend right now in my own personal sphere. And there I am helping them, and we'll discuss today where and how we operationalize all of this. But the first thing under the hood every morning, once I dispense with okay with the chronic pain and issues I've got, what's it going to be today? Dispense with that first question of the day with the first breath of the day, and then choose joy. And then, no matter what comes at me, I'm able to process it as a gift with joy, not all day, every day, all the time. But if you lead with, Hey, I'm a joyful guy, and you can have joy too, you're not going to get anywhere. Operationally, that's not Joy's not on the resume in corporate. However, Joy is a requisite for the kind of performance that I lead, that I expect and that I am constantly interacting with, and when I can remind those people who are really crushing it, what's under the hood here comes from a place of not necessarily that I don't know. I kind of giggle a little because it's the inverse, the law of proving out the opposite to be true. And as an artist, I'm sorry I'm a moderate provocateur. I believe that art should be provocative evocative. I'm old school that way, and so I like the idea that art can trickle like water into spaces and joy and love and all this hippie stuff can be operationalized at the highest levels of human performance and existence, and then go home and make a difference with wives and husbands and children. And that's my joy. That's the motivator. That's what I don't tell a lot of people, a lot of hard lines and spaces. You'll hear me speak in military terms or things like devastatingly effective. What people don't realize is what makes you that is what I've got in spades, and that comes from a place of swapping out pain consciously circumstances I don't want consciously for joy. That's rightfully mine. I claim it. Well,
Greg Voisen
Well, that's what your breathing techniques do. I hear another little gremlin that was small one that that was a small one. But, you know, look, we just finished the Olympic Games, and I'm reflecting on Phelps and Simone Biles, both of them having to deal with severe depression, right? And I watched Simone Biles with much anticipation in this last game, and actually watched how she was breathing before, everything, how she was preparing herself, knowing that she'd been through that very painful, challenging with depression, same way, same way with Michael Phelps, you see these extreme athletes who practice day in and day out, the same thing over and over and over and over again to become good or the best. Let's just put it that way, the best. How is it that you can help somebody like that? Because you state you've helped people like this, doesn't matter where the performance is. Maybe they're a singer, maybe they're a dancer, maybe they're a musician, but they have to be at their best. How is it that your work helps people to become their best?
Sage Rader
By allowing them to come into contact with the felt, sensation of their own excellence, I am often able to bypass conscious thought, and I'm able to help them find a metaphor that brings them to. Awareness of their own excellence, and that's where the joy comes in, because once I can experience myself as being as good as I already am, and I can relax into greatness and excellence, there's sort of an almost giggle fit. It's like, this couldn't be that easy. This shouldn't be that easy. There's got to be something in the way. I'm like, No, that's it. So I work with people to get rid of fear, and we could call it anxiety and depression and all of that. But really, at the center of a lot of what I see in corporate and these very unique, solitary islands of overachievement, is a fear that continues to drive and motivate them and that will only take us so far. Now, fear is necessary, and there's a lot of really good literature and study out there and application of the fear response, but my world is about creating a felt sensation of their excellence in their system, using music and metaphor and breath. It's a very quickly we bypass all the thinking mind and we get right to feeling, felt sensation in the body connected to subconscious. And I have carefully decoded the language of experience, connected it and correlated it via first principles with breath, and then correlated all of that to the music. And I present a package that is very powerful, very simple, very elegant. And those people simply fold around into and relax into their greatness, their excellence, which is the sort of foundation I keep doing this. It's like a rock at the center, and the rest of them drapes and folds beautifully around the foundation of their pre existing, innate excellence and corporate will actually foster the fear the companies, the entities, are actually quite sick, some of them really insanely sick, and people come away with this profile of an abused spouse, and these are the incredibly high functioning institutions. And so the culture of these, well, English comes home back
Greg Voisen
in one respect, high functioning. In another respect, maybe not so high functioning. You know you as you are speaking recently, an email came in from a couple of my meditation teachers, Dr Joel and Michelle Levy with a statement from the Dalai Lama they send out these newsletters. And what was interesting was a comment that he made about mindfulness. And it was almost as if, and I don't know how to take this, but I think this is a good place for us to take a deeper dive into it. Mindfulness from a standpoint of, are you truly mindful? Meaning, he was saying, there's this state of mindfulness which is false, making this sense that you're pretending to be mindful versus this truly state, and I'm paraphrasing here, without actually reading the quote, I could bring it up and read it, but the true state of really diving into a mindful space, it kind of reminds me of your work in this here's the correlation that I have. You know, people can say, well, I go into meditation and I do breath work, well, but do you really dive as deep as you really could dive into the breath work to get the optimum benefit from the breath? Now, we see these studios cropping up all over the place where people do breath work, come in and do the breath work in there, what is, what is your stance? 2.1 the comment about the Dalai Lama, about mindfulness. And two, how do the core principles of your somatic breathwork, and how do they contribute to everyone who's listening? Well being, overall, well being,
Sage Rader
so two very detailed, very separate questions. Let me see if I can keep that all together. The compound question, yeah, to the to the point of mindfulness and breathing the same breath with a different thought is a different breath, meaning, as soon as I begin to think differently without changing my breathing patterns, and this is where breath one point. Oh, I think is woefully inadequate. Soon as I start thinking I change the chemistry in my body so I can breathe a certain way. And I'm proving this out with all my wearables that I'm doing. I'm like, I'm less relaxed at the end of the relaxing exercise than I was when I started, because now I'm all concerned I'm ticking boxes. I'm performing this anticipatory reflex. And so true mindfulness actually has to bring change, in my opinion, if my practice isn't bringing progress, then I'm not practicing intelligently, and I might need or want to go back and revisit my entire practice, everything I think I know about myself, God in the universe. And when you look at your life, I look at my life like, wow, I thought I was pretty mindful there. But the evidence, the demonstration would suggest otherwise. So I say, Well, you know what? Look at your life, look at your relationships, look at your world. That's what you know spiritually, there's no such thing as on demonstrated spiritual knowledge. If I actually know it, it's in my life. If I say and know it and it's not in my life, how much do I really know it. So mindfulness needs to bring change, and for me, powerful, sustainable change has been achieved by awareness of my state in my breath, and then a tether to something greater than myself that allows me to do an internal job and actually allow that change to happen, invite that change. Be willing and spacious and full of ease about the change. But I've got to invite it. Got to be ready for it. That's part one. I think.
Greg Voisen
What's this part one, and add to another, making it more complex. Anna, go for it. But the but the work that we do, you know? Look, I went to a dinner Friday night called the India night, at a self-realization fellowship. And I see all my friends there, you know. And as you advance through the ranks, you get a kriya car, Kriya Yoga, right through the practicing of the techniques to actually, and this is at at its best, breath work, right? It's all about meditation, bringing in the right breath work. And those altered states of consciousness which you are helping people attain, some people are now, you know, I should say Stephen Cotler, this is flow Genome Project, right? It's like, okay, he's been on here five or six times talking about that. But at its best, in the corporate world, which you were just mentioning, this is where I'm going to go back to we we are providing a service to an overall, larger community and our talents to hopefully merge together to make something wonderful happened as a result. I don't care if it's a law firm or it's a landscaping company, it doesn't matter what it is. We're coming together as a team. Now, not everybody else on this team has the same perspective viewpoint, right? So in your work, specifically with organizations, how do you address and alleviate the stress related issues amongst employees? Because every employee on a scale of one to 10, as it a different stress level. Say, maybe at 15, okay, some maybe at two, okay. But it's also in, you know this, because of their ability to utilize your techniques and others, I won't just say somatic breathing, but others as well, to get to an altered state, to be able to move forward in that environment, to work in that environment, to be productive in that environment, to be able to communicate in that environment to be honest and trustworthy and open and all the things that people want, because that's the highest level of performance we can give. Yeah. So 100% Tell me. Tell me when you go into work for a law firm that many of them are who. Man, high stress. Talk about high stress organizations, sure, but as high stress as they come, right?
Sage Rader
And that's my favorite. I like high stakes. I like it when people are moving the GDP, yeah, and I enjoy that level of requirement on the system, because that actually is what I learned in my own personal healing. I mean, that's what qualified me. So you put it in an environment now, not everybody wants it, not everybody even thinks that it works. You find the people who are first adopters, early adopters, first followers, and you begin to work there, and you make a tiny clean spot in some of these places. I've been going back year after year after year, and so I'm tracking trends. I'm checking society. Society is changing, and hiring these large institutions to change. So whether they want to individually or not, the mandate is coming from on top, and I get to go in and bump up against every piece of resistance policy that there is. But because everybody's thinking and breathing all of them, like every single human in that organization, there's a single common first principle that everyone can relate to. And what they discovered with navy seals in particular, is you put them in the same room at the same time for the same reason and getting breathing in the same way. Release them out into the wild. You let one loose that later turns his head, and the rest of them turn their head. They begin to share the same thoughts. So my work is actually quite easy, because everyone's breathing and if they're skeptical, it takes me about three minutes to illustrate in the breath what I'm talking about. And they're like, oh, okay, so I keep it operational. Nobody has to go lay down. Nobody's doing breath work. I had to get the words breath work out of what I do because of the association. We've got to lay down burn Paolo Santo. I'm not disrespecting 1000s of years of tradition and history. I'm simply saying in the places I go, in the environments that I find myself, people are not playing down. There are no yoga mats, and nobody's asking for breath work. Nobody's asking for spiritual enlightenment. They've been told there's a program offered to the most elite of them, and they like it. It's got these famous people attached, and this proof of concept and this general idea, and then I design or outline a program, and then we get takers. And so everyone who wants to work with me is working with me. I always get someone who's interested. I don't get often people who are voluntold, which is kind of cool, because I get those people, and then culture changes, because the first thing that happens is they take it home. Tell me one other thing from work that they take it home that makes their life infinitely better, overnight, the kids, spouse, dog, the whole enchilada becomes far more interesting, fun, enjoyable, manageable, very quickly, like after the first or second session. These are corporate, one on ones, so it's not hard work. It's enjoyable work, it's easy. If I had more of me and more opportunity, I would be making far more impact, because the results are like, shocking every time I'm surprised that I'm surprised, but I'm surprised. What
Greg Voisen
if you could? Because I think people that are listening are like, okay, so what does this guy do? Right? Right? And one of the things I know is I referred you a young lady, and you made audio tapes for her, and she had huge success. And I would like to know what is a success story or case study where neuro acrobatics significantly improved the well being of the workforce. Now I understand that you are improving the well being of the workforce. ARE YOU DOING IT group work? You're doing it in individual work. Are you making these tapes or everybody that's there, where you custom design them and give them to everybody so they can listen to them when you're not there. So what does that look like? What does that feel like? Yes.
Sage Rader
So I use music, I use metaphor, and I use breath. And anyone can use those words and say, that's what they do. The demonstration of it is where it gets really interesting and fun, and the roots of where I pulled it all together and tied it up so. Yeah, ask me the question one more time, please,
Greg Voisen
really, what is it that you do, and what is the success story that you have about what you've done and the evidence that might support it? Because there's, there's obviously successful people, and they'll say, Well, what's the scientific, scientific research or evidence that supports what it is you do? And I know the NIH has done all kinds of study on meditation, mindfulness. We could cite zillions of things. I wrote a book with with a gentleman called wisdom, wellness and redefining work thriving in a world of ever increasing complexity, and we put in all kinds of NIH studies, right? We actually asked people to take breather breaks and focus phrases. This has gone way back, right? This is like this is, and this is before anyone was accepting Well, the bottom line is the book was a dismal failure, because nobody really wanted to do breather breaks and focus phrases, and we were trying to do it. And so now here comes this new thing, neuro acrobatics, right? It was pretty close to it. And the guy's name was John Selby, and you actually might know John, very famous in the field, that we wrote this book together. But my question is, as time has evolved, right, I've noticed a greater level of acceptance and rise in willingness to try new things, whereas when we first started at the doors were just kind of shut. It was like, Look, sorry, you're not bringing this into our company. We're not ready for the right
Sage Rader
so the science behind it comes from the soft sciences, psychophysiology, and then there's a huge amount of hard science that's emerging. I'm working with a group of people now that are working with the government. So as soon as something gets declassified, I'm making it into art like that. So the person you sent me will start there the tracks I make, because all the tracks I make are for everybody when I do corporate. And I'll just talk about stomping the landing there. Give you one case study. I go in, I breathe all the new people. I breathe, all the administrative staff. I breathe, the support staff. I breathe all the way up to the C suite, so I get a real picture on what's going on in the company. Then I talk to people who are in well being and HR. And I find pain and pressure points. I find desired outcomes and goals, and I will craft the entire art metaphor and music experience to do exactly that. Why and How am I successful where other people claim and don't have results. Great question. So psychophysiology says the way you think while you breathe is the most important thing. That's a core principle. Breath is a metaphor that's a core principle, Master metaphor for life, the way you breathe, the way you do everything else. You read the breath. I teach everybody. It's blockchain. You can read opposing counsel in their breath. You can make friends with someone in their breath. It's all dual use technology. You can build a relationship. You can wreck a relationship. Do it all with the way you think and breathe in the room and you will own the room. Is the promise, and
Greg Voisen
they're like, is is it about observing the breath, or is it about, as old Tony Robbins used to say, mirroring and matching. Well, of course,
Sage Rader
mirroring and matching is hugely helpful. But where do you mirror and match first? The most subliminally important part of the exchange is in the breath. So whether it's a neuro makeover party, which I've just started doing, I created it for worth Avenue yachts, a global yachting partner that I'm working with, and I did my first one on land. I had people breathing with each other. They left best friends in their breath with a bunch of complete strangers. The artist was weeping. People had written down cards of what her art meant to them. They were breathing while she described it. They were breathing while I let them loose and played my violin to go experience the art. Then they came back. People were hugging and exchanging numbers total strangers. So you take that kind of neuro makeover Tupperware party for the mind, you insert that into corporate where you promise them a desired outcome, and you better be able to deliver it. But then, very quickly, because I've decoded the language of existence, of experience, of the subconscious, everybody has a master metaphor. I watch how they breathe. I notice the blips. Soon as there's a blip, I ask them about it. We bring it up. I get them talking. Pretty soon, they've given me their own metaphor in their own words to solve their own problem, and they've done it in their language, and all I do is give that back to them. Very, very quickly. I'm being reductive, obviously, but psychophysiology says that the way I'm thinking gets wired is going to experience cells are intelligent. You. So like the whole body is an intelligent learning system. So I'm working on that premise, on the entire being, the entire cellular structure and infrastructure, at once, without claiming it or saying it, and then I'm directing it towards exactly who or what they want to feel like when they're done, that will correlate to the state that they need to be in to actually be that. Because learning is state dependent. So breath anchors and changes state like nothing else. Combine that with the right words at the right time and the right music, sound drive sensation. And I started with the most famous pop star in the world, arguably, at the time, first private client. So I've had to be sure that this could work from the very beginning, because you mess up once at that level, you're done. And so I have had to prove it out of myself first, my closest friends and colleagues go get the smartest men and women on the planet to give me the science to reverse engineer what I actually created, and now I'm with them, and they're like, Hey, could you do that? So the person you sent me the science people are thrilled that within three days of the latest science that the public could hear about, I had created a track that I gave to a private client. So to get outside of corporate now, no groups, no one on ones in a corporate setting, I also take, and my real joy is private clients for one to three months, deep dive, deep dive, and all these principles, get to know their breath, get to know everything about themselves and their breath, how to be that as they travel the world and just absolutely stomp the landing on every goal they have, and putting in music with the right metaphor at the right time, sometimes working out, sometimes chilling. And we now know that maximal is not optimal. Intentional sub optimization is my game, and that music and that original thing given back to them comes at a premium price, which is worth it. And they come to my studio and we record. I treat them like an artist, and I can do things when I treat people who don't think of themselves as brilliant world class artists like a brilliant world class artist, and suddenly the work takes over and does them. And so that's what I love, is composing original music right here into this sound bed. And then people are able to anchor in their ideas with their sounds and their felt sense. Walk home, and every time they breathe and listen to that track, that thing, whole thing the state is anchored in. So whether it's pre game, pre game for a big presentation, or just building in baseline all day, every day, I create the tracks and their words with their metaphors and their affirmations and their beats that they want. And I think I'm about to actually launch something with her to the world because it was so powerful we should talk about that she wants to collaborate around creating these types of affirmations for corporate culture that are relatable. You can work out to or dance to, or find moments of peace and respite to, and so or instrumental. I
Greg Voisen
would agree that, you know, and the reason is, it at a point in time when someone hires you, hires anybody to help them get through a stuck spot, right? He's like, I'm stuck. I need help. Um, look, all my life, that's that's what I've done, is help people get unstuck. The question is, how long do they remember what it is that I did, and what did you leave them with so that that became part of their DNA, that was part of it. Now, look, breeding is a natural human thing we do all day long. Do we recognize it? No. Do we recognize our heartbeat? Hardly ever, right? It's like it's we take all of that physiology that you're talking about for granted, so to actually pay attention to the breath and work with it as a tool to our to improve our level of relaxation, to get us more focused, to help us become more creative. I think most of my listeners know it exists, right? They just don't know how to remember how to use it. So the tool you're talking about using to have these audio tapes to do that, I think. And there have been many people that have doing it, as you know, Bruce worked with Gary Malkin, and they created up all series that they. Did, which goes way back for me, back to the time when I was using that with cancer patients, right? So I get that this is something we have to remember. So my question is this, after all of this dialog, how do you help people remember and
Sage Rader
they're already breathing anyway.
Greg Voisen
It's almost like they forget, though.
Sage Rader
And so that's where we start. And if I could give the audience one thing, I would just say, begin to notice when you're holding your breath. Begin to notice start the whole relationship with your breath by noticing when you're not breathing, when are you absent the breath, and ask yourself to whom or what am I giving the power of life and death, because the difference between dead and not dead is breath. Begin to notice, and breath will anchor itself in so I just got a text from a client that something happened and a dog slipped and broke a leg. And while that was happening, they were very, very present. They were able to say, You know what, I never thought I would be able to be this in the breath, but this is just what happened. And so it anchors itself in and I would just say, remember that when you're not breathing, ask yourself, why? Ask yourself, what's going on? Begin to tag that thought and notice and just notice every time you're holding your breath, because there are a lot of people out there who will tell you, you need them. I'm gonna get I'm gonna say, No, you don't need me. You're already breathing. Your body knows how to breathe in a way that's optimal, not maximal. And the more you get out there and begin to intervene without real knowledge, it's dangerous. I am not a fan of breathwork 1.0 to be clear, we have got to evolve the genre so that people don't have to separate themselves from the stimulus that's wrecking their whatever to recover from the stimulus that's wrecking their whatever, we get to integrate, and that's the anchoring you're never asking someone to do something out of context. All of their well being and breath is brought into the context of now, of what's happening, of how I'm feeling and how I want or need to feel to accomplish a different level of a consciousness and execution into the
Greg Voisen
well, you're you're definitely on the cutting edge of this, right? If there's any one person that is, it's you. So my question to kind of sum up this podcast interview would be this one. I heard you what you said about breath 101, and I get it. I know exactly what you're talking about. I think my listeners do too. Whether it's dangerous or not, there's a lot of it going on, right? It's because it's just out there, just
Sage Rader
what,
Greg Voisen
yeah, what is the future look like? Because I get exposed to all kinds of doctors that are advocating certain things, from you know, Peter and Tia to Dr Simon, to all these various people that are working in longevity space, they're looking at working in the breath space. You're seeing all of this now become more at the forefront than it ever has been before, which is great. There's also a lot of confusion for my listeners. I would say there's a lot of like, trepidation to go down this road or that road, or I heard what this guy said or that guy said, and, you know, not putting anything against it. I've been podcasting for 17 years. When I started, there was hardly anybody. Now there's, you know, the half a million podcasters, right? So you can tune in any day and hear anything you want, anywhere, wherever you want to hear it. I always like to bring what I hope is the best. So I'm going to ask you this question, what based on the current evidence, you have scientific backup, scientific studies and the situation with relation to our physiology. You know what is happening, and where do you see this going, and how can this be used most effectively, both personally and professionally?
Sage Rader
That's a great question. The future is decidedly capnography, if we can see what is happening to our breathing behavior in terms of our real time CO two, we can correlate breathing as a phase one of respiration, and we can actually optimize respiration and physiology with our breathing with a full understanding that. Breathing is just the beginning of that process. When I'm done, there's a gas exchange, and then that goes so you take all the science away. I'm just making art based on science. So you don't need to know the science, but you can participate in something that's joyful and fun and easy. I would ask people to remember that when I say it's dangerous, I mean that the unconsidered life is not worth living. The unconsidered breath is dangerous in as much as we can begin to think and breathe in a way that serves our psychology but isn't actually helping our body. Everyone go, please look up Dr Peter Litchfield and the School of Behavioral Health Sciences, the professional school of behavioral health sciences. And Dr Peter Litchfield, he is pioneering this field after 40 something years, maybe 50 something years, of psychology and bridging psychology and physiology and psychophysiology, I've learned from him and a bunch of the first generation OG mind people, mind guys and gals, that literally, physiology has its own. Is psychological. It's fundamentally intelligent, and so when working with respiratory intelligence, every one of you has it. If you're feeling dysregulated, knowing how you're breathing before you intervene is vitally important, so just be careful before you go grab an app or try a thing and you don't actually know what's going on in your body, because it might actually not be helping. And so having a feedback loop with your own breath and allowing a relationship to develop before you jump in and hear what someone else said. Try a trend. A lot of people I know go to those breath work classes have experiences they can't integrate and they're just left sort of out there. So I would say, Be your own remote control. Have your own Gage. Know what you're doing in your breath. Notice how you're breathing on your own. Begin to breathe in a way that actually, I would say, assigns a metaphor to your body that feels good, and if you're able to breathe gently, in and out of your nose, tip of the nose to the bridge of the nose. Nose in, nose out five seconds in five seconds out, or four seconds in six seconds out, I would say, say, start there. Go with very simple, very easy things, and notice how you feel before you jump in and decide that you're going to intervene, like taking a bunch of supplements without blood work. We don't know. Why would I go to the grocery store, pull every supplement off the shelf and just try a different one every day for a week? That's what's happening with breath right now. It's like everybody's getting an Adderall pill. Like, hey, everybody take this Adderall. It'll do the same thing to each of you, and it'll have this spiritual result. And if you don't have it now, keep doing it. You'll get it later. And I'm like, oh, anything else that was being sold like that would have a serious ethical complaint board, and we do not have a reasonable ethical complaint board that's enforcing so every one of the listeners gets to breathe on their own. Notice where it feels stuck, notice if it hurts. Notice if it's tight. Where is it tight? How's it feeling? And start there. Just start there one minute a day before we go get crazy with everything else.
Greg Voisen
I think you give Sage advice. Sage, no pun intended. But I think all my listeners go to neuroacrobatics. It's n-e-u-r-o, making it right. I want to spell it, a-c-r-o-b-a-t-i-c-s.com, and there you're going to find courses. You can shop. You can learn more about what it is that sage does. He actually even has a blog that he writes. There's, there's a lot of information at the website. I was actually just going through your website again. There are lots of testimonials, which is a great place to go if you want to find out about about his work. So I would say that's probably the best place to go. Is there any place else you you would send them? It's
Sage Rader
funny, I just got on LinkedIn. I haven't needed to be on LinkedIn for ever, and I just did this thing with worth Avenue. So I got on LinkedIn, they can go find me there. Okay, I actually got a really nice reference there. I've never actually had a LinkedIn anything. I like to operate quietly behind the scenes, but I'm on LinkedIn, come say hi, and I'll be starting to create new content and put it there.
Greg Voisen
We've also got available the seven day mental law challenge, so you can sign up for that. He is on Insight Timer. Many my listeners know that. Or at least you're using Insight Timer. Is that right? Is that what you're advocating?
Sage Rader
I've actually got some content on Insight Timer as well. I
Greg Voisen
figured you'd I figured you did, yes. And is it the concentrate drink, the Kool Aid, water's edge? Are those ones? That's the one? Yeah,
Sage Rader
some of it's just music for breath and meditation, some of us is actually like, I call them guided medications.
Greg Voisen
Tight guided medications. I like that. So go to the website. They're eager to learn more about sage. Sage been an honor having you on you obviously have brought a whole new level of how people need to look at you know neuro acrobatics. And if you want to, I have Dr Kennedy coming back on an NPN, which is neuroplasticians group that is from Switzerland. And actually we're doing another podcast here, and one just broke today, believe it or not. And I think that as we've looked at it and studied the science of our brain and how it works, the effects that the breath has on our actual neuro network networks is phenomenal, right? And it couldn't be any better to use the two in conjunction to progress your personal and professional growth. I mean, for everybody out there listening, this is the greatest way to do it, however you want to look at growth, your journey, your curiosity, your openness to being finding new things and to explore this is a great way to get there. So thank you for being on thanks for sharing your wisdom with us. And do reach out to him. You have he has a Contact Us button. He does answer his his emails or contact us. So I do take advantage of that if you want to increase your awareness, achieve peak performance and or unlock some extra energy that you think you might not have, but you really do, go check him out. Namaste.
Sage Rader
Thank you, Greg. Namaste.
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Inside Personal Growth with Greg Voisen · Podcast 1148: Take Less. Do More. with Glen Van PeskiIn this exclusive interview, Glen Van Peski, a pioneer in lightweight backpacking and the founder of Gossamer Gear and author of Take Less. Do More.: Surprising Life Lessons in Generosity, Gratitude, and Curiosity from an Ultralight Backpacker, shares his insights on the evolution of outdoor equipment and his personal journey in the industry. Glen delves into the challenges and triumphs of creating some of the most innovative gear that has transformed how we explore the great outdoors.
Early Beginnings
Glen recounts his initial foray into outdoor gear design, driven by his dissatisfaction with the heavy and cumbersome equipment available during his early hiking adventures. His quest to lighten his load led him to experiment with various materials and designs, culminating in the creation of his renowned ultralight backpack.
Design Philosophy
Central to Glen’s design philosophy is the balance between minimalism and functionality. He emphasizes the importance of understanding the users’ needs and the environments in which the gear will be used. This user-centric approach has not only set industry standards but also cultivated a loyal customer base.
Innovations and Impact
Glen highlights key innovations in backpacking gear, including the use of durable, lightweight fabrics and the integration of ergonomic features to enhance comfort and performance. He also discusses the impact of these innovations on the backpacking community, noting the shift towards minimalism and sustainability.
Looking Forward
As for the future, Glen is optimistic about the integration of new technologies and materials, such as advanced synthetics and eco-friendly components. He also expresses his ongoing commitment to education and community engagement as pivotal to advancing outdoor gear design.
Conclusion
Glen Van Peski’s contributions to the outdoor industry reflect a profound understanding of both the technical aspects of gear design and the experiential needs of end-users. His ongoing work continues to inspire and shape the future of outdoor adventures.
You may also refer to the transcripts below for the full transciption (not edited) of the interview.
Interview Transcipt -Not EditedEmailDownloadNew TabGreg Voisen
Well, welcome back to Inside Personal Growth. Glen, I always say that because I've done 11, 141 episodes, so I'm not certain what number of years will be but thank you for joining us from Bend Oregon. Glen van Pesci, he is the author of a brand-new book and let me get it out of my face. I'll do it over here. It will put it here. Take Less. Do More.: Surprising Life Lessons in Generosity, Gratitude and Curiosity from an Ultralight Backpacker. Glen, good day. Thanks for being on the show.
Glen Van Peski
You bet. Great to see you again after all these years.
Greg Voisen
Yeah, he and I go back to a time in Vista California when we were in Toastmasters together, and we knew a lot of the similar people. So for all of those out there who know this area, Glen used to live down here, but he's now up and bend enjoying the beautiful country up there, Mount bachelor and the rest of things. And I'm gonna let him know a little bit about you, Glen, he's known by the trail named legend, where his legendary contributions to the backpacking community, is a native California. Glen grew up in the western outdoors with his oldest son joined when he joined scouts, he led a troops backpacking program. Through those experiences, he became intrigued by lightweight backpacking I did too. The lighter I could get it, the more I enjoyed it. I remember I had an old Kelty pack. I had a trade in. Then there's a company in Temecula that started, and I got one of their packs. Gregor, Gregory. Gregory, yeah, and it went along with my name, too. So yeah. And then he started sewing his own gear, and eventually started his own company and Mac manufacturing ultralight equipment. Glen and his company have been featured in backpacker outside National Geographic adventure magazines in New York's Times, and that is gossamer for all of you are interested, it's on the front of the book that is the name of the company. He's an internationally sought after speaker, known for his inspiring, humorous, informed PAC presentations. He has hiked most of the Pacific, has tail and wandered the back country of Japan and Europe, and bike packed on the Great Divide, and as I said, he lives in his bend organ with his wife, Francine, and for over 40 years, and he's the father of two grown sons. Well, thanks for all of that. Thanks for your contribution. I think that's the key, the contribution that people leave, the footprints that we leave behind. I think it's very important, and I know that as a way, I want to say a backpacker and naturalist, what you take in, you take back out again. So, if you're plaguing it in, you're going to pull it back out again, right?
Glen Van Peski
That's, that's the goal, yes, enjoy it while you're there. But yeah, leave it better than you found it.
Greg Voisen
Well, that's take less, do more, right? I love the title. It's really compelling. Share with the listeners the origin of this philosophy and how it's kind of shaped not only your life on the trail, but your personal life.
Glen Van Peski
Yeah, great. Thanks for having me. It's great to connect after, after all these years when I saw your name pop ups like, Wait, great voice, and I know that day, and it's like it took us a while to put it together for sure. You know, for many years, I was working long hours, and so I had a limited time off, and I like to go backpacking, and so a lighter pack enabled me to do more miles. So, you know, I could go further in a three-day, four-day weekend, I could really make a long trip out of it, instead of just doing a few miles a day. You know, it made getting outside, or getting, I should say, getting outside with less gear, also was less of a barrier to the outside experience. You know, when I'm in the wilderness, I want to enjoy all of it kind of with all my senses. And if I'm zipping myself up in a tent and I can't see or hear anything outside. I'm not really enjoying that, whereas, if I'm traveling with a really light load, I can look around, if I'm sleeping under a tarp, I can enjoy the stars and the breezes and everything going on around me. So for me, it makes for more. Immersive experience, which obviously there's some downsides. If there's a lot of bugs, you don't want that immersive inexperience. So yeah, move to a tent. But you know, off the trail, what it made me realize is, if I can go out for three or four days or a week with all my gear weighing less than five pounds. It made me realize how little I need to be comfortable and happy, and so while I enjoy and I'm grateful for all the conveniences of modern life as we enjoy them in this country, you know, I don't, I don't need those to be happy. I realize that. I mean, they're nice, but I can be happy without them, so that makes me more grateful for having them and less fearful about losing them.
Greg Voisen
Would you consider yourself a minimalist?
Glen Van Peski
You know? I, I always say there's, there's not enough evidence in my house to convict me of being a minimalist. And part of that is my wife of 42 years now, francity, but I can't blame it all on her. You know, part of always wanting to go out with the light of stuff means I have a variety of gear for a variety of seasons, because I wouldn't want to take a heavier jacket, you know, to save the two ounces. So I do have a fair amount of gear, actually,
Greg Voisen
even though there's nothing where I think there's nothing wrong with that. When I say a minimalist, I think from a philosophical standpoint, it's really more about how we touch the earth and how we touch others, right, and how we can do that, and my sense is that you've paid a lot of attention to both of that, and in the book, you discuss this idea of wilderness as a great leveler. I think that's where we're getting to here. And can you elaborate on how this concept has influenced your interactions with others, and especially during any kind of adventurous expedition that you've gone on. Because, as you know, last year, I helped a gentleman write a book called the precipice of life, which is the highest Seven Summits. And recently I had a gal on here, Jen Drummond, a 44 year old woman with seven children, who's climbed all the highest Seven Summits. And you think to yourself, she was in a automobile accident that almost killed her, and that was the thing that changed her mind, meaning, okay, I'm going to go do something now. And she started with one peak, and then it just kept progressing on and on and on. And I always look at this because the wilderness, whether it's Everest or it's a Pacific Coast Trail, you call it the great leveler. It's a great leveler, wherever you are, you never know what's going to happen out there, right? So you have to kind of be prepared. Yet, in your case, you're coming with the least amount of gear possible. That doesn't mean that you're not prepared, but at the same time, you are trying to continue to reduce the weight of the amount of things that you take with you. Yeah. And so how does this apply? How to also, how does this apply with your interactions with others? Because my sense is, and I'm a podcaster, so I have to kind of talk for a living, but I think the more we listen versus the more we talk, the more we understand.
Glen Van Peski
Yeah, I mean, I would agree with that, and I like your before we got into this discussion, your nuanced kind of understanding of minimalism, because to me, if you have a lot of possessions, but they don't have a hold on you, that's part of minimalism. I mean, we, you know, have a very nice Sprinter van, and we'll lend it to friends. And, you know, people are gassed at that saying, well, that's a very expensive, very, you know, vehicle, and you would land us like, what's the worst going to happen? You know, something's going to break, they're going to crash it, or whatever. It's just stuff. And they, you know, when you when you realize how little stuff you need to be happy, it gives you a looser Hold on, no matter how much stuff you have. And then the other part is, when you've had things in life, like the birth of a disabled child or almost being killed in a plane crash, you realize that stuff is not what's important. You know, it's not that is not the important things in
Greg Voisen
life. Well, your son's named after Derek, and he actually is the disabled one, right? Yeah, yeah. And so explain that. How is that affected both you and Francine and just kind of your family. When it comes to your per your perspective about life and living life.
Glen Van Peski
Well for me, so I'm an engineer. I don't work as an engineer anymore, but to me, like, if you're an engineer, you're always an engineer. It's, it's in your DNA. And, you know, I always look at problems like, how could I do it better? How could I do it lighter, more efficiently? You know, I can't help it. I'm always looking like, how could I improve something? You know, I have learned after 42 years of marriage, wives are not a good subject for trying to improve. But, you know, everything else in life, I'm always looking for a way to improve. And you know, Derek. When Derek was born, severely disabled, he was a problem I couldn't solve. I mean, it's, you know, it's not, it's not something you can reason your way through. I wasn't going to be able to fix him, per se. And so it was a process of realizing that he didn't need to be fixed. He was who He was, and even profoundly disabled, he had a purpose in life and the ability to bring joy to others. And so until he, you know, died before his 20th birthday, you know, it was a huge impact on the family in terms of resources and time and energy and and anxiety, and some of those still travel through our lives today. But it, you know, made our other sons, Brian and grant, I think, both more sensitive to others that maybe are different than us. So, yeah, many, many the impacts on our lives for sure. Well,
Greg Voisen
you know, it's, it's, it's a tribute to you to have gone through the things you've gone through and still been able to keep this sense of equanimity, the sense of transparency, of being open. I mean, a lot of people could hold that back, and you have it, and the way you've grown is by being able to express it and put things like that in this book.
Glen Van Peski
Well, what do you you know, one of the benefits of of doing that, of sharing the hard things that have happened in life, is, you know, you realize, when we had a disabled son, we met a lot of other people that you know, had a cousin or someone in the family or a good friend who was severely disabled. And it's not something that generally comes up, you know, but when they see your disabled son, they share a piece of themselves that normally you wouldn't, wouldn't find out about. So, you know, it is a way kind of a leveler, I guess, like, like the wilderness, you know, where it's something that can happen to anybody and how you how you manage that. It's not necessarily something you sign up for, but how you manage that, build that into your life, and how it affects your relationships with others is really what, what leaves the difference well?
Greg Voisen
And you mentioned a plane crash too. You also talk about that, you know, and you survived, right? So, yeah, I did. So the thing is, is that you faced your finitude. And I think when people have a perspective, my eldest son got leukemia at 21 he's now 42 so he still had leukemia all this time, right? But the point is, is that as a family, it united us to look at things in a different perspective. In other words, our lifespan, how long we're here, how we can help and serve, our gratitude for what we have, right. And I think those same imprints happen to most people when they have a sick child or a disabled child or any issue in their life. How did that plane crash change you?
Glen Van Peski
Well, you know, immediately after the crash, I was the first one to come to and you know, as I called out to the others and got no response, I fought for the first minute or two that I was the only survivor of the crash at that point. As it turns out, the pilot died, everyone else was banged up to greater or lesser degrees. But one thing it changed, seeing how the seeing that the pilot had died, he'd been married six months, and you know, seeing his new, now widow at the funeral made me. Not assume that it was going to be back that night when I left in the morning. And so always made sure to tell Francie that I loved her when I left, because, you know, I hoped the pilot did when he left on that trip. You never know when those are going to be your last words. So, you know, it gives you, I think, a, you know, a little perspective on the frailty of life. You know, you don't take it so much for granted, but at same time, it makes you more grateful for every day you have,
Greg Voisen
yeah, it gives you a new perspective. And I think that's good. And you mentioned that you only realize the broader application. And we're talking now about your ultra light philosophy here over time, what are some of the key moments or experience that led to this realization? Because look here, you are an engineer. You said once an engineer, always an engineer. You had to engineer these gossamer gear packs, and that's where this light weight backpacking came from, and that, let's face it, there's been a lot of companies that have attempted to do the same thing, but this company is still successful today, right? And you you have this philosophy. And I realized, as somebody who did backpacking with scouts, and I took him up San Gregorio and Jacinto, and we went into the Sierras, and I did all that kind of stuff, right? It was always, well, how heavy is this? You know, you know, all these kids would be, I'd be taking them along. And it was like, man, your backpack is is too heavy, right? And it wasn't always what the backpack was. It was the stuff they put in it that they thought they needed. Just like what you said, like, oh no. My mom said, I need this extra this. I got this extra that. I mean, you know what I'm talking about. So when you go through the checklist, whether you're a pilot or a backpacker, what is your mental checklist?
Glen Van Peski
So, yeah, I'm a big checklist guy. In fact, you know, we're about to leave in our Sprinter van for a week, and I've got the checklist printed out, you know, of all the stuff I have to do before we leave, and then all the stuff we need to pack. I
Greg Voisen
figured you had a checklist.
Glen Van Peski
Glen, yeah, I have a checklist for every trip I've ever done.
Greg Voisen
And I'm a checklist guy too. And I'm not an engineer, but I am a checklist guy.
Glen Van Peski
Maybe, you know, maybe you are an engineer. I mean, I I always tell people, sometimes I meet people and I say, Hey, I see you. You're an engineer. I don't care what's on your business card. I don't care what you get paid to do. But I know an engineer when I see one.
Greg Voisen
Well, thanks for the compliment. But my son is definitely he's a software engineer, and he used to have checklists for everything so, and I'm sure he still does, because when I go backpacking with him and when I did, he was the one who always knew what food to bring. He had the checklist. I just kind of let him do it.
Glen Van Peski
Well, the great advantage of the checklist is you take advantage of your your previous trips. So, you know, I always start by pulling out the checklist from the last similar trip that I did, and then I think about and research, okay, you know, what are the changed conditions I just got back from a couple weeks in Iceland, you know? So I'm looking at, okay, what's the weather going to be like? What's precipitation going to be like, you know, what are the off trail portions? Am I going to need a blazer or not? You know, do Icelanders dress up at night? You know, are we going to be in remote areas or rural areas? So then I modify the last checklist by like, new information about the trip that we're going to take. And then I also take notes. Like, these are my, these are my notes from from Iceland, you know. And it's, it's, it's things that work, things that didn't work. Like, one of my notes is, bring snacks, you know, this was a guided trip, so they fed us breakfast, and we kind of packed our own lunch from stuff they had, and then they fed us dinner. But what I realized, and failed to realize before the trip, was, you know, I'm used to eating kind of smaller meals, kind of snacks through the day, and I didn't have those because they didn't provide them. And I was thinking all the food was provided. So, you know, that's one of my notes for next time when I do a similar trip, I'll ask some questions, and I'll probably pack a bunch of bars and nuts and stuff like that. Because, you know, now I know, so, you know, before a trip, I'd look at the checklist from previous one, modify that, and then after the trip, I reviewed my notes to see, you know what I learned? What I'm going to do different next
Greg Voisen
time it's it's always good to see the perspective, you know, obviously, having built this company, gossamer gear and and having growing into successful company. But I think, you know, look, a lot of your life has been on the trail. You've been all over and you've learned lessons. And I think what my listeners would really like to know what are, what are one or two of the most surprising and or profound lessons that still resonate with you today, that you learned when you went out on the trail?
Glen Van Peski
Well, I would say the first one that I mentioned is, you know, how little I actually need to be happy. You know, my base pack weights usually under five pounds before food and water, so I can usually address just about any situation that comes up a given trip with that amount of weight. So anything more than that is is gravy. You know, when I get home, I have a newfound appreciation for the things that we take for granted. I mean, we adapt so quickly to our life of incredible luxury in this country. But there's nothing like sleeping in the dirt for a couple weeks to give you a new appreciation for your you know, memory foam, California king mattress at home. Yeah, the ability to, you don't have to treat water, the you get potable water at any temperature in multiple locations of your house. And, you know, you get take hot showers whenever you want. I mean, that's, that's something we take for granted. But after you've been on the trail for a couple weeks, it's like it's magic. It's incredible. You know, not needing to worry about how much power your phone has left because you're in the middle of nowhere, you just plug it in. It's amazing. So that's one thing, and the other thing is,
Greg Voisen
you ever go off totally offline? In other words, have you been out there when you've never had cell service or GPS phone or something like that in case of emergency? Do you actually go that way?
Glen Van Peski
Yeah, that's usually. That's usually my preference. My phone is just the lightest camera I could carry, basically, and that's the only thing I use it for. So I can usually get by four days without recharging it. So if it's a shorter trip, I don't take an extra battery. And then, if the law, it depends on, you know, the longer trip I'm off trail or by myself, maybe I'll take a, you know, three ounce Garmin, so I have some emergency capability. So
Greg Voisen
you have, yeah, yeah. Uh, GPS phone, or whatever they call them. Is
Glen Van Peski
that what it's called? Yeah? Uh, yeah, Garmin, whatever they call it, merch, yeah. They
Greg Voisen
make, they make these phones, yeah. The way you can, I, you know, I think for a lot of people, that is that feeling of being totally unconnected to civilization and in in general, is there's this whole fear associated with that, right? And you know, you you took a variety of people on these trips, from CEOs to artists. And I'm curious, what have these diverse groups taught you about the human experience and really the common ground that we all share, and some of the things that you had to do to help prepare these people to go on these trips, because they're not used to going out in the wilderness like you were, and certainly not with five pound backpack. And even if you put in the food in the water, let's say you took it up to a total of 20 pounds. That's still pretty light.
Glen Van Peski
So usually they do know something about backpacking, because, you know, for the I have, I have what I call the list, and couple times a year, I'll get some permits and send out a blind copy invite to the list. And there's, there's three criterias for being on the list this. The first one is, you have to be good company in the wilderness. And my shorthand for this is people with something to say but nothing to prove. You know, people that are interesting are willing to share, but don't have to be the one always talking. Don't have to be the center of attention. The second criteria is they have to have their gear somewhat organized, be experienced. Because I'm not. I have a few gifts, but teaching is not one of them.
Greg Voisen
And you're an engineer, yeah, exactly. Figure it out. Figure it out on your own, dude. And then third is you're not that patient
Glen Van Peski
says not one of my British No. And the third is that they're in some kind of decent physical shape, because the trips tend to be somewhat rigorous by most people's standards, and it can modify. Kind of the last two, often the first one, the good company is non negotiable. And so you know, people from a wide variety of life end up on my list. You know, friends to friends, or people I come across in podcasts or, you know, when I'm speaking or something, or sometimes just cold emails. You know, someone asked for a pattern on a piece of gear or something. And so it's always a great mix of people from all walks of life. And you know, what I've discovered is that, you know, if you love the outdoors, there's nothing like being outside for a week to strip away. I mean, you could be a hot shot driving a Ferrari, living in La Jolla, but when you're in the middle of slot canyon, it doesn't really matter. None of that very agree, no, it's, it's your door, pooping in a bag. If it's a slot canyon, like everyone else, you're getting water out of a spring. You're lugging everything you decided to bring you don't have staff to take care of it for you. You don't have internet to check on how your stock portfolio is doing. It's just you. And you know that's to me, that's that's the power of wilderness is getting away from the hall, the connectedness of our modern life, and just have time to think, one, you know, time by yourself, to think about things you don't have time to think about because of all that noise going on in our everyday life. And secondly, time to talk and get to know other people, because in our busy lives, it's like you might meet someone for coffee or beer after work, but you really have time to delve into things that are going on with them, or, you know, how they brought up, or what they're thinking about, what they're worried about. But when you're, you know, walking for 810, 12 hours a day, you got plenty of time to have those conversations and really get below the surface with someone
Greg Voisen
so true. I When my son got his leukemia, and I'll relate this story, we decided that we would work together and and we devised a course called Never mind the noise thriving in a world of ever increasing complexity. And we used to go out into corporate America and teach mindfulness and meditation, which you can imagine back then. This is a while ago. It wasn't like, always the highest on the list of somebody who's like, okay, so we get this gig, and I'm going to tell this story really quick logistics. So we go to Atlanta, where I was Atlanta, I think, and it's FedEx, and it's ups, and it's these people that are just rushing around like crazy. And we have this breakout in this room, my son and myself, and we got the gig through a friend. Every session, for four sessions was people waiting in line at the door to get in so that they could meditate for the first time or learn something about mindfulness. It's it just, it's kind of, you know, you can imagine what it's like being in the FedEx business or UPS or Amazon drive or whatever. You're just constantly on the move. So I think good on you. Now. Gossamer gear is still successful business. It was under your leadership. You're now not leading it. Are you that correct?
Glen Van Peski
I'm still you're on the you're on the board, on the board. I'm still doing product design. I mean, the last tent we came out with was something I developed for a trip I was taking. So, yeah, okay, so,
Greg Voisen
so, but you often emphasized humility and service, and I think it says in the subtitle graciousness, gratitude, curiosity, all from the ultra backpacker. How do you maintain these values in the world of entrepreneurship? I think when we're speaking of business people right now, I think one of the things around that divides our world today is not Ali Lama says it. A lot of people say it. The only thing that's really going to help cure us and solve us is more compassion. With compassion comes humility. With compassion comes generosity. With compassion comes understanding and better communications. So what does that mean to Glen van Pesci,
Glen Van Peski
well, I guess for me, I realized it somewhere along the way that it's not about me. You know, no matter how hard you work and how smart you are, everything that you want to accomplish in the world is going to be done through others. And so you. Need to figure out how to relate to other people and how to serve other people. And I'm an introvert, so I've had to work at it. You know, I just as soon be quiet then go up and talk to someone, but
Greg Voisen
you know, they're doing a good job here.
Glen Van Peski
Well, that's where the magic happens. Is, you know, when you go up and talk to someone like we were France and I were sitting on our front porch last night having a little dinner to join the the bend evening, and I see our neighbors cross the street walking up, mother, mother, father, you know, daughter, son, and the the kids, Delilah and Luke, are always over our house, checking things out and running up and down the stairs. And so I went over, you know, down down the stairs, to go chat with them. And parents kind of rolling her eyes, you know, that I'm bugging the neighbors, but I just found out the dad, who's a doctor, is he said, Hey, I need to talk to you, because I'm going to climb Cotopaxi with some friends of mines, and I want to do a light so, you know, we had a great conversation about some of the options and footwear and, you know, base layers and stuff like that. So if I hadn't got over and said hi, I mean, I guess eventually he would have gotten around to talking to me about it. But, you know, going up to people that's, that's where the magic happens. You're
Greg Voisen
so true. I mean, you know, like serendipitous little talks that you have. We go out on nightly walks here in Encinitas, we talked, I talked to the neighbors. My wife's more of an introvert, but the reality is, is that, you know, she says, Well, you'll talk to anybody. And it kind of is really true. But I learn, you know, I learn about the whole human experience, you know, like, what's going on, and if you just ask one question and then shut up and listen, you're good to go. Yeah, it's like, no, never know. We're out waiting to respond to what you just want to hear, what they have to say, right? And I've had people tell me their whole life story, you know, it's like, I'm still listening 45 minutes later. You know,
Glen Van Peski
probably because no one ever asked them, you know, no one ever tried,
Greg Voisen
right? Right. I we used to have this old saying. There was a guy in in an office I used to work in, and we used to say, Hey, Don we asked you what time it was, not how to make the watch, but he would literally go on about all, you know, this is how this works. This is like typical engineer. He was definitely an engineer, but he told us exactly how to make the watch, not what time it was.
Glen Van Peski
So you learn it the only way out of time. You don't ask, Don, you know, you ask somebody else. But if you really want, and I and Don's your man. And
Greg Voisen
I just learned just a week and a half ago that Don passed away. He was 79 and I'm, I'm so kind of taken aback by that, because of he was such a healthy liver and a good guy. So look, in your journey, you faced a lot of challenges and failures, and if you talk to the listeners about one of the significant failures that taught you an invaluable lesson, I think that helps listeners really understand how to reframe, reframe looking at a failure and how you can reshape it in life, to look at life in a different way. Now, obviously, your disabled son is not your failure. Your plane crash isn't your failure. We're talking about other things that happened that you could say, hey, I really learned something, and I reframed my perspective in the way I looked at life.
Glen Van Peski
Well, I guess, you know, one significant thing in our lives was having to close down my engineering company, Pacific Rim engineering, you know, the economy turned south in San Diego. I'm sure you remember this. I think two thirds of the architects in town went to Arizona or somewhere, or did, ended up doing something else. But I had to work. I worked. Ended up working for a year without salary, while I found my employees jobs at other firms, and then finally closed down and went to work for another engineering firm. And I had to, you know, instead of driving over to San Marcus, I was driving down to San Diego.
Greg Voisen
But I think what you just said, Glen is most important point, and I don't want people to miss it while you spent time helping your employees find other jobs. You know that happened at Airbnb, and the young man who owned Airbnb, he had to go through a major layoff, and what he did was he actually had severance pays, and he helped them all find jobs. Now that's. The testament to the character, the individual like yourself, you helped all these other people find jobs
Glen Van Peski
you don't touch with, still in touch with some of those early employees, you know? I mean, yeah, it wasn't Yeah.
Greg Voisen
And I have people that work for me even today that I could say, hey, well, maybe the economy is a little tough, or things aren't going right. I could lay them up, but I don't. I keep them employed, right? And I do that as long as physically or humanly possible for something to change. And I think that's what we're talking about here. Is your your not only your melody, but your humanity, right? And that's really important. Um, any other things that were failures or setbacks that you learned from? Anything out on the trail that happened that was a failure that you learned from?
Glen Van Peski
Yeah, any, any, anytime you're trying to cut things close, you know, get your weight down to a minimum. There's always an experience where you cut it a little too far. And there was one time when Reed Miller and I were hiking on the Pacific Crest Trail, and we're headed north, kind of towards Big Bear. We crossed whitewater Canyon just north of the 10 there, and there's a bunch of water in the creek, and so we still have a little water in our bottles. And so we could have filled up, but we said, well, you know, it looks like the trail kind of parallels the creek. So why would you carry water, which is heavy longer than you need to. So we hike on for, I don't know, another 45 minutes, then we're really out of water. And so we walk over to the edge of where the creek is the gully, and it's bone dry. You know, it's one of these arroyos, these washes, the water comes and goes in the rocks and whatever the underlying geology is so you know, then we have to walk all the way back to where we find water, and by now we're out of water, and it's super hot. There's no shade, yeah, so I think we and dehydrated and dehydrated, we, we,
Greg Voisen
you're lucky you didn't pass out on the way.
Glen Van Peski
Well, yeah, close. We drew straws. And I think Reed may have cheated, because he saw how bad I was off. But anyway, he he took both our water containers and hiked back to fill him up with water, and he's probably gone, I don't know, an hour, I found a little sagebrush that I could at least put my head kind of in the shade,
Greg Voisen
and so then you weren't feeling too good. I
Glen Van Peski
take it wasn't feeling too good. He came back. We drank water, but it still wasn't feeling too good. We hiked on until we actually crossed and there were some oak trees. And by that time, I really didn't feel well as I was shivering, even though it's high 80s out, yeah, and so I crawled in my down sleeping bag and kind of shivered myself to sleep with the what I bought, yeah, let the water kind of work its way back into My body, and then, you know, then we could continue. But, yeah, that was kind of a little close.
Greg Voisen
Yeah, I did a, I did a cycling event. I'm an avid cyclist, and I went from Mexico to San Felipe at 103 degrees, and I got out there and it, it was supposed to 114 miles, and I got to, like, 105 or something, I said, I just can't go on anymore. And somebody came and put my bike in the back of their truck, picked it up, took me back to the hotel, and I shivered for literally, I can't tell you how long I had never felt so cold. My whole life. I was in bed and or, you know, so you you know. You know when this happens. This is not a good, not a good thing that you've dehydrated yourself. You know, in the introduction of this book, you discuss your decision to take a job as a dishwasher after retirement. You're, we're just talking about you helping people get jobs from your Pacific Rim days. What does this choice say about your values, and how do you view success at this stage in your life? You're older, you know, 6666 so you're still young. I'm 70, so got four years on you. I was wondering why your skin looks so good. For somebody who hiked, it must always keep you must always keep sunscreen on. So mine doesn't look so great, but I guess I'm doing all right for 70.
Glen Van Peski
Yeah. Well, the problem is, we both grew up before they knew about sunscreen, you know, right? Yeah, we got sunburned. Probably both of us, way more than there should have, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I've got plenty of scars all over my body from,
Greg Voisen
uh Oh me too. DERMA melanoma. I've had melanoma, basal cell, all of it removed, and I'm like, Oh my gosh. So, any rate, so this dishwasher thing, what do? What is this kind of what would you say that it says about your view in life? Well, I
Glen Van Peski
think I'm a I'm a fan of building margin in life. And you know, going ultralight backpacking creates margin in the wilderness. You have ability to go further, to help other people and in life. You know, when you're intentional, you can create margin of time, energy and money, and then, if you're curious, that you can become aware of opportunities to to help others. You know you you notice things. It's like, you know, Joe doesn't seem to be as upbeat as usual. You know, maybe I should see what's happening and find out that, you know, he just got a diagnosis, or his wife just got a diagnosis. And, you know, they're in hard times, and there's something that, some way you can help. So, you know, the dishwashing is just they were looking for a part time dishwasher. And you know, I kept seeing the notice up there, and you know, the whole story is in the book, but I kept thinking about it. They I asked them about and they said, Oh, we're waiting for the right person.
Greg Voisen
And what say when you took the job? She, she she just said whatever. She just shook her ad like she normally does,
Glen Van Peski
yeah, but you know, when they, when they said, No, we're waiting for the right person, that those words were like, maybe I'm the right person, you know, maybe there's a reason why this job hasn't been filled yet. You know, maybe because I need to be the one to fill it. You know, it's a it's a place, I think, you know, in life, we need to find a place where we can use our talents and resources. And I don't claim to have any particularly talent and wash of dishes, but to me, it's a lesson that any job can be important and useful. I mean, the dishwasher position is the least glamorous, lowest paid. But if the dishes aren't clean, everything else cries to halt. You know, you need a constant supply of of clean dishes and pots and pans for everything else to work. And this is the way it ends in life. I mean, you know that we don't pay attention to the people delivering the paper, taking out, you know, collecting the garbage and things like that. But
Greg Voisen
are they going a week or two people that change the bed in our hotels, or exactly any of that? And I've always been the person that thinks, right? And, you know, I've been that dishwasher as you have, not only as a kid growing up, but also at the scout camp, where I literally, that's how I started, and washing dishes at meditation retreats on the orcas islands. Basically we we build a community, and everybody takes turns. Now, washing dishes is a mindfulness of meditation practice and of itself. So when you talk about all these hours of hiking or cycling or whatever, dishwashing can be another one, that it puts you in a complete meditative kind of state. It puts you in this spot of mindfulness of what you're doing. And I just want people to know there's absolutely nothing wrong washing dishes. As a matter of fact, I had some of the most fun getting to be with other people in a community washing dishes. And it's a lot of fun.
Glen Van Peski
Yeah, I mean, that's some of the things I get out of it. I wouldn't, at least in my experience, hasn't been meditative. I mean, it's fast pace you're running around. I mean, it's, it's all hands on deck, you know, operation. But, you know, it does provide me an opportunity to be part of a team. You know, that adrenaline rush of you're all working towards the common goal and making sure everybody has everything they need. And it's been a way for me to be a resource to others. You know, talk to some of my co workers about they're thinking about starting a business. Want to pick somebody's brain, and I had an opportunity to actually help out the company during covid with some resources. So, you know, you just never know the impact you're going to have no matter what your job title is,
Greg Voisen
you're definitely one of those people who will step in anytime, and you're the renaissance man I call you. So look, we've covered a lot of ground here talking about your book. Again, for all my listeners, we're putting a link up. Uh, to the book here, take less, do more. We'll also put a link to Glen's website. It's Glen van pesci.com Please go there if you want to learn more about Glen the book gossamer. It's a really well done, well built website. So finally, if readers are going to take away one key message from take less, do more. What do you hope it'll be, and how do you envision it hopefully impacting their lives and the lives of others? What would you want to leave listeners with to wrap it up?
Glen Van Peski
You know, I don't know what the key message is going to be for any individual reader. I mean, let's be honest, there's nothing really new in this book. I mean, it's not like I've discovered some magic key to unlock a life of purpose, but I know that people hear things in different ways and at different times in their life when they're ready to hear it. And so my hope is that you know through the stories that I tell for my life and the life of others, and you know the words I've chosen and the timing of the book kind of coincide for some people, and they'll get something out of it that allows them to create a life for themselves. It's that has less stress and striving and more joy and purpose.
Greg Voisen
Well, Glen, you've been an honor. It's been an honor having you on the show. It's been an honor reconnecting. I hope that now that you're going to come down my way, we can hook up, and I get to reconnect with you for at least a cup of tea or coffee. But thank you so much for sharing your stories, your wisdom, your knowledge about this, and again, for all my listeners, the book is, take less, do more. We'll have a link up there, and it's glenvanpeski.com. Thanks so much, Glen.
Glen Van Peski
Thank you, Greg. Always a pleasure to chat with someone about how to make life better you.
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Inside Personal Growth with Greg Voisen · Podcast 1147: The 5 Choices: The Path to Extraordinary ProductivityIn a fast-paced world where change is the only constant, personal growth is not just an option but a necessity. Personal growth, the conscious pursuit of self-improvement in various areas of life, can lead to profound changes in your mindset, relationships, career, and overall well-being. In this blog, we’ll explore the importance of personal growth, how to get started, and practical strategies to help you on your journey to becoming the best version of yourself with Kory Kogon, one of the authors of the book The 5 Choices: The Path to Extraordinary Productivity.
Section 1: Understanding Personal Growth
Personal growth is a lifelong process of developing your skills, knowledge, and emotional intelligence. It’s about pushing beyond your comfort zone, overcoming challenges, and setting goals that lead to a more fulfilling and purposeful life. Personal growth can manifest in various areas, such as improving relationships, enhancing career prospects, or achieving physical and mental well-being.
Section 2: Why Personal Growth Matters
Personal growth is crucial for several reasons:
Self-Awareness: It helps you understand your strengths, weaknesses, and the areas you need to work on.
Resilience: It builds the mental and emotional strength to face life’s challenges.
Success: Personal growth is often linked to success, as it involves continuous learning and adaptation.
Happiness: Engaging in personal development can lead to a greater sense of satisfaction and happiness.
Section 3: How to Get Started on Your Personal Growth Journey
Starting your personal growth journey can be both exciting and daunting. Here are some steps to help you begin:
Set Clear Goals: Identify specific areas of your life where you want to see improvement.
Create a Plan: Develop a step-by-step plan with actionable tasks to achieve your goals.
Embrace a Growth Mindset: Believe that you can grow and improve through effort and learning.
Seek Feedback: Ask for constructive feedback from others to gain insights into areas for improvement.
Be Patient: Personal growth is a gradual process; don’t rush it.
Section 4: Practical Strategies for Personal Development
Effective strategies to foster personal growth:
Continuous Learning: Enroll in courses, read books, and stay curious.
Mindfulness and Meditation: These practices can help increase self-awareness and reduce stress.
Physical Health: Regular exercise and a balanced diet contribute significantly to mental and emotional well-being.
Journaling: Writing down your thoughts and experiences can help you reflect and gain clarity.
Networking: Surround yourself with people who inspire and challenge you.
Section 5: Overcoming Obstacles in Personal Growth
Obstacles are a natural part of any growth journey. Common challenges include fear of failure, procrastination, and self-doubt. To overcome these:
Acknowledge and Accept: Recognize the obstacle and accept it as part of the process.
Break It Down: Divide large challenges into smaller, manageable tasks.
Stay Persistent: Keep pushing forward, even when progress seems slow.
Celebrate Small Wins: Acknowledge and celebrate the milestones along your journey.
Conclusion:
Personal growth is an ongoing journey that requires commitment, effort, and a willingness to embrace change. By understanding its importance and adopting practical strategies, you can unlock your full potential and lead a more purposeful and fulfilling life. Remember, the path to personal growth is unique to each individual, so take your time, stay patient, and enjoy the process of becoming the best version of yourself.
You may also refer to the transcripts below for the full transciption (not edited) of the interview.
Interview Transcipt -Not EditedEmailDownloadNew TabGreg Voisen
Welcome back to Inside Personal Growth. Everybody knows me, but on the other side is Kory Kogon. This is her second appearance on our show. And Kory, good day to you from Tempe, Arizona, where it's nice and toasty warm, probably about 112 degrees.
Kory Kogon
Yeah, it's getting there. It's still early morning, so it's 85 but we're getting there.
Greg Voisen
You'll get there by the time it's one o'clock. You'll be feeling it well. It's good to have you on the show, and it's always good to speak about a path, as you say, to extraordinary productivity. And you are with the Franklin Covey company, and I'll let people know a little bit about you. Kory. She's a Global Practice Leader for productivity, focusing her research and content development around time management, project management and communication skills. In addition to co-authoring this book, Cory is one of the authors of project management for unofficial project managers, which we did a podcast on previously. We'll put a link to that. And prior to Franklin Covey, Kory spent six years as the Executive Vice President of Worldwide operations or alpha Graphics, Inc. So that was a if everybody remembers. I don't know if it's still there, but they used the franchise, yeah, is it?
Kory Kogon
Well, oh yeah, oh yeah.
Greg Voisen
I didn't know of alpha grab. I hadn't seen the name in a while. So, here's a book. Everybody go out and get yourself a copy of “The 5 Choices”. We'll put a link to handle us on for that. And Kory, I think, you know, we're all dealing with the same amount of time, no matter what it is, but we all feel like our time is all jammed up and that we don't have that amount of time. In your productivity paradox, you state that it’s both easier and harder than ever before to achieve extraordinary productivity and feel accomplished in our lives. In other words, the wins. How do we get the wins out of this? Because I'm gonna say 60 to 70% of the population is working behind a computer and a desk. I know we still have agriculture in this country, but it's not as big as it was. Was. Can you explain the concept of productivity paradox and how it really inspired not only you to write this, but Adam Merrill and Leon Ryan as well? I hope I'm pronouncing it well. So there were three of you who wrote this book for Covey, right?
Kory Kogon
hmm, yeah. Adam Merrill and Lena Rinne. Leena
Greg Voisen
Leena Rinne, okay, I got that one really messed up, but Lena Renee and Adam Merrill wrote this with you. And so what inspired the three of you at Covey to kind of come together and decide, okay, we want to create this. This the five choices book the path to extraordinary productivity.
Kory Kogon
Well, you know, it started back when, because if you think about Covey, most people know us for the seven habits of highly effective people and habit three, first things first was sort of the culmination of habits one and two of if I really want to take responsibility and envision, you know, my life, you know, roadmap my life. Then this principle of focus, we need to really focus on what's important and do that and get those things done in the midst of the busyness. And that was so popular that that evolved over time, first things first became what matters most, focus achieving highest priorities, and then a number of years ago, again, as the world changes and our circumstances change, we continue to upgrade our work, and it was time for us to take it to the next level, Based on what was happening with technology and the workplace, etc, and so that was a lot of the motivation. But this idea to the paradox is what started, you know, starts the book and our workshops around, around the five choices, because it really became, we came to the place where it is both easier and harder than ever to achieve extraordinary productivity, even since we came out with that line and that paradox, that paradox, continues to take on more and more meaning as now artificial intelligence. This has become part of the technology and all of that, but the paradise. So the inspiration was this idea of everybody saying, Wow, use the technology. It's going to make things easier. Which it does. I mean, thank goodness for some of the medical technologies and things that saved my own life, let alone others that we didn't have 10 or 15 years ago. But on the other hand, technology just unleashes this incredible flow of information that comes at us and just completely overwhelms us and distracts us, which that's a whole topic in itself about companies have become so good at distracting our brains because it can. So that was the inspiration. That paradox really is foundational. It's not all about technology, but boy, we keep getting told that a lot of these tools gonna make our life easier. Some do, but if we're not careful, it really can completely overwhelm us and speed the world up
Greg Voisen
well. And it's really, I think, when it comes down to it, if we're distracted, then it's really simplicity. So the simpler things, you know, and Stephen McCombie, SR is probably known for his chart. Now, I guess there is some controversy about the urgent, the unimportant. You know, did that actually come from Eisenhower? Right? I don't know if it was or it did. I'm not going to debate it, because I learned it from Stephen Covey. I didn't learn it from Eisenhower, but you in in choice number one, it says, act on important, don't react to the urgent. You state that we make choices based on two factors, importance and urgency. And that's absolutely true, that that that what's built in our DNA is in our DNA. That's who we are as people. What strategies can individuals use to identify and prioritize the most important tasks? And I think anymore, because our task list seems to have gotten bigger and bigger and bigger and longer and longer and longer, we're having much more difficult time trying to figure out how to act on the important
Kory Kogon
now, the so it is a matrix, and let's give Eisenhower credit where credit is due. It was called the Eisenhower, something like that. So he had actually put it out there, and Stephen institutionalized it. So that's and Stephen Covey is the first one to say that his, you know, his work and his principles are not new. It's the way it's packaged that makes it all accessible, uh, for people to really do something with. So closing the knowing, doing gap was really Stephen's strength and how he developed. You know, a lot of that work, the the confluence of the word important, urgent, creates that matrix. And when you say, you know, how do we identify what's most important? What we mean is, what are those things that are really important, but not but not urgent? Quadrant one is important and urgent. Quadrant Two is important and not urgent. Important and urgent might be the IT system broke down. I have a customer that's on fire. I My child is, you know, I've got to do all those things. Those are things that need to be done in the moment, which a lot of us get addicted to. That that's, you know, it's just what we you know, we need to make things happen and all of that. Back to your question. Quadrant two, those things that are important and urgent, somebody needs to just, I can't tell you what's in that quadrant you need to decide based on your life and what you're doing, what are the most important things that you need to do with high quality to fulfill your few key roles in life. So as you know a vice president, Franklin Covey, what are the things that I need to do with quality as a you know, family member and that you know as a Don what are the things that I need to do, and even if it's just work related, what are the most important things? What project, what plans do I have my goals set? Do I have time for planning? What are the important things that I need to do and get that established as really important once you get and this is not Pollyanna, because I've heard Greg, some people say, Oh, that Franklin Cubby, quadrant two. Really nice place to be, but we don't have time for it. You don't have time not to take the time to establish those things that need to be done with quality and on time. Those two factors, if you will. Allow the other quadrants to always get in the way. You are not going to get those things done. So those things that are urgent and important, the crises that are ongoing, if you live for crises, you're not going to get the important things done. If you are working on stuff that is urgent and not important. Other people's minor issues, unproductive meetings, which we all know and love. If you're sort of going there, it's taking your time and attention away from quadrant two. If you are doing stuff that's not important, not urgent, it means you're laying on the couch watching television for eight hours. Nothing wrong with watching television, but there were, you're burnt out two hours. Maybe is, you know, renewal and important, but eight hours, you know, or whatever it might be, not being judgmental, quadrant four is where you go when you're burnt out from the urgencies of one and three. So just an answer to your question, how do you determine what's the most important, whether they're tasks, assignments or goals, sit down, really, lay it out, and then figure out how to mitigate or eliminate some of the things that I might be self imposing accidentally in those other quadrants. So I free up the time and space to make sure I'm putting my best time and attention on those things that are most important. And I go to sleep at night feeling like I accomplish something.
Greg Voisen
You know, the the old, uh, adage, you know, when I go back to my Franklin planners, was it an A, A, B or a C item? Was it at the top priority list? I mean, I go back to the day of carrying an actual paper planner, right? And I used Covey's product for years and years and years. So let's, let's not discount that, because that actually helped me to be extremely productive. But I think we're looking for healthy productivity these days. I recently just had David Allen on, and they were talking about the new book teams, right? And it's not here to promote teams or David, but to make a comment, yeah, that's something that they observe, and I think it's something you've observed at cubby as well, and that is that if there isn't an agenda, and there is no reason for your inclusion in the meeting, so you making a contribution to a meeting. And they instituted this at some companies, and I think this goes along with this. You don't have to go to the meeting, right? So they did this in a big financial services firm, and they realized that a lot of people just stopped going to the meetings. And they were like, wow, this is great, because we have productive time, because we're spending so much time going to these meetings. So if they're so their rule was, if you didn't have an agenda, you were on the agenda, but you weren't making a contribution, then the reality is you didn't need to go to that meeting. And I thought that was a very interesting comment that they made, and that goes along with this, if you would discuss the impact of consistently reacting to urgent tasks. So I know that that creates burnout, and a lot of people probably do. But how do they flip the switch to get away from that, to look more toward long term productivity and well being? In other words, how do I basically make myself feel better and get the winds during the day that I need to get, to get the endorphin releases. We talk about the chemical responses, the oxytocins that come out as a result of me getting some wins, versus me just grinding away at these little tasks all day long that are sitting there and I'm going, Oh my God, I've got to get them done. So let's just get them done, right?
Kory Kogon
So a couple of things. Back to your meetings, just and this is in, this is in in the book, one of many examples, worked with a large sales division of a large company that everybody would know and love, been around for 100 years, and they were figuring out how you know how to make their salespeople more productive, what was, what were the things that they were reacting to all day long that we could scrape out and to free up their time? And I ended up spending time with couple of salespeople in the freezers here in Arizona, of like, you know, the big food stores, observing salespeople at work. I'm telling you that to say that the C level person who was leading this initiative, when we talked about meetings, because sometimes it needs to come from the top. They put their eye, they spend time and put their eyes on meetings, and eliminated six hours of meetings per. Week, you know, in the company. So when you quantify that, I mean, that's sort of, that's sort of amazing to your question, the idea and something that in the media was in my interview, as I was interviewed a lot, you'll find it on LinkedIn. It was one of the most or on, you know, just productivity playbook on a number of different interviews that I had done, the question that got asked was my thoughts on busy versus productive? Because one of the problems, and I'll get to the impact of it out there, is even to this to even to this day, maybe not so much the younger generations, but still prevalent in the older generations, is this idea that busy is a badge of honor, or some, for some, not all. Again, I want to be careful about that, but busy is a badge of honor. Oh, I'm so busy. Oh, I'm busier than you are, kind of thing, and that suggests productivity, when, in fact, it doesn't. And for leaders out there, actually, to the point I was just making is now more detrimental than ever to the younger generations that are coming in that are really concerned with work life balance and work and personal balance. That's because life is work is part of your life and so, so, so we need to be careful with that busy is not a badge of honor, and we are really busy. We don't want to take away from that, but we should be busy. And add to that and say I was crazy busy. Today was the end of a quarter for us, or the end of the year, and I managed to go to my kids soccer game. I managed to get this big project done that I had to get done with quality. I got a couple of things done in the midst of the dizziness. The funny thing Greg is sad or not. Sometimes it's like, ugh. I'm so glad I got that one email out that I along that I needed to do really well. I feel accomplished. Sometimes it's it's down to that one thing about this urgency when you are addicted to urgency, the the chemical to be talked about is cortisol, when you are hitting that urgency button over and over and over, cortisol was helpful back in prehistoric times when the saber tooth tiger was approaching, you know, the hearth and your body needed the your blood pressure to go up. It needed to send oxygen to your limbs to be strong, and it sort of took it out of your mind, and it did a whole thing. And you went and you took care of the saber tooth tiger, and he went back to dinner. Today, people are pressing that. I mean, we're doing, I'm doing. I mean, you check the new whatever you're doing, you're pushing this cortisol button. And that can be an overdose, and that's called cortisol poisoning. I've had friends who have ended up in the hospital because of the levels of stress from this constant urgency. And if you allow what we call quadrant one to get bigger and bigger and bigger, because you like to wait till last minute, I get things done when I'm under pressure, you know, those kinds of things, you really, really taking a bite out of your health and well being. And if you're a leader and setting that model for others, you're not going to keep those people very long. Well,
Greg Voisen
I remember there, it probably still is something at Franklin Covey, but, and I think it was Stephen Covey that said this, you guys used to have signs you'd put on your doors and you could close your door, and it said, I'm thinking, right? And I really love that, because how many people out there can really say that they've distributed science to their employees that they could stick up and say they're thinking, don't bother me, because that's what I'm doing. Because when it really comes down to the creative work, the most important work is done when we're giving time to think, when we're given time to create, given time to be much more innovative. Now that leads me to this question, and I'm skipping around here. There's obviously choices, and you've got five, but three is schedule. The big rocks don't sort gravel that's been used all over the place. We everybody out there knows it from EOS entrepreneur operating systems, and everyone uses it. Can you explain the concept of a big rock and the gravel in the. Context of productivity. Because honestly, I'm sure many of my listeners know about the gravel and the rocks in the sand and the big rocks, but I think it's good for you to give it it, give it some explanation.
Kory Kogon
Stephen did so begin that metaphor and said, yes, many people have picked up on it. The you know, the the gravel really is when you think about and we have a really fun video that actually is on, it's public out there on, we call it buried alive. And it's a fun little minute and a half video that just shows all of the gravel. It's part of the course to all of all of the gravel, you know, just coming at us all day long, all the things that we need to do. And we get overwhelmed, you know, by all the little things. And in this metaphor, you know, Stephen, you you have a bucket filled with this gravel, and you have all these big rocks that represent the important things you need to do. And because the bucket is so full of gravel, you can't get the big rocks in there. It's too full. But if you dump out all the gravel, and you put the big rocks in first, I need to take a vacation. I need to do this big project, all those things, put it in first, and then you you can pour the gravel in, and it goes in around it, and everything fits in. Okay, I'm not a fan to be candid about putting in sand and water and all that kind of stuff, because that, to me, is complete overwhelm. Because the idea is, how do I get all of the big rocks in there, and also take a little the gravel out, you know, get rid of some of the things that are not that important, that maybe I shouldn't be doing. Maybe I should be delegating some things to other people, you know, that kind of thing. But the moral of that story is that the big rocks go in first, and that is a direct connection to how I do my planning. And by the way, Greg the the Franklin planner company, spun off a number of years ago. Now they still do five, six, $7, million a year in paper planners, because people love that. I mean, we get yelled at sometimes, like, Why did you stop selling planners? I mean, it wasn't the business. You know, we're a big company that was, you know, small potatoes, somebody's, you know, it's being run, and it's out there. But no apologies for liking paper. Some people do. And I think there's been a renaissance. There's a lot of companies out there. Michael Porter, I mean, there's people out there that have produced the new, new planners, yeah. Michael
Greg Voisen
Hyatt, Michael Hyatt, there's lots of people. Michael Hyatt, yeah, yeah. The thing is, is Covey was really the first and the biggest, right? And I recognize that the digital world, and that's where we're going next, started eroding it and, and that's okay, you know, I go back to the days of the Palm Pilot, right? And I used to share, yeah, my information with somebody through a palm pilot. And everybody's like, What the heck was a palm pilot when I say that. But the reality is, is, is that is, slowly and surely, those paper planners did get eroded quite a bit, because there was a big business for you guys originally, and now it's a much smaller one, but in Rule four, you say, rule your technology. Don't let it rule you. You state that we should make technology work for us, not against us. Now we see a rise in AI. We see a rise in this tool being able to do things for us that were actually a lot of the gravel, okay, right? And, and I am being impacted positively, yeah, by letting ai do my gravel. Okay, maybe that's a weird way to say this. No, I will tell you that, um, last night, first time, I'm going to let my listeners know, I tried Microsoft copilot, and I had it create a PowerPoint presentation based on a prompt. Now all of us know that there are times we have to do PowerPoint presentations, and we know how long they can take. It literally took less than three minutes for it to create a 12 slide PowerPoint presentation that made my point. Yeah, that, to me, is gravel. The big stuff is, what am I going to say during that presentation that I should be focusing my effort on, not the actual creation of some fancy slide that does it right? So if you would talk with the listeners about that and how has the rise of technology impacted productivity, both positively and negatively.
Kory Kogon
So remember what we said, the paradox, it's both easier and harder than ever to achieve extraordinary productivity. So let's just. The harder part first, and I'll come back to AI, the harder part is, and I think what's really important for your listeners to know is that this was not necessarily about time management. Well, we threw that sort of out a little bit to say because of what you said, We're knowledge workers paid to think, innovate, create and execute. That's so I love what you said about you know, you're right. You need to, you need time to think. And a lot of people will say, Oh, I wish I had time to think. I don't having Having said that though, with with our technology? Are we getting distracted by it? So we are all reaching for my cell phone. We're all attached to our cell phones. That's technology. Are we addicted to watching the news all day long? Are we addicted to social media. I mean, all of those are addicted to video games. None of those are to be judgmental, but the technology can addict us. And when you think about what quadrants we talked about before, what I say is, or what quadrant are you win when you're on social media or playing games or whatever? Are you in quadrant three, quadrant four? Or are you using technology in a quadrant two kind of way? So technology and and the amount of information that comes into us through our email, through slack, through teams is completely overwhelming, overwhelming. That blue Bo, I mean, you're all feeling it as I'm talking about it, the blue notification box, the dings, the pings, everything coming at us is through technology, and it's only getting faster and faster and faster. So it's harder than ever to be productive when you've got all of this that's coming at us.
Greg Voisen
Yeah, it looks so you're you're so absolutely true. You know, I have a client who still works with Marty Cooper. If you don't know who Marty Cooper is, for all of my listeners, he literally is the inventor of the cell phone. Okay? He's 90 something years old. And there's a few quotes that came up for me. He says, Don't you should not be the slave to the phone. Yeah, the optimum cell phone is one that I think someday, he said, will be embedded by your ear. I now I'm not certain where that is. What else is there in life but to accomplish things and do things, he says, and what's the biggest function of a cell phone? Now, that's what you really should think about. The in everybody's case, it's communication, better communication, quicker, communication, more effective communication. But unfortunately, we've allowed ourselves to be on all the time because the cell phone is something we carry with us. It's in our pockets, in our purses, it's in wherever. And that part of it is the negative part. So I would say, you know, learn how to turn the damn thing off during times when you want to think and don't worry about it. If somebody really wants to get in touch with you, with a text message or whatever, they're going to find a way you don't need to worry about it. But it is a real positive, and so is AI. Now, you said you were going to comment about AI. Do you have any comment like the one I just made, where I did a PowerPoint in four and a half minutes that I didn't think was going to happen? Yeah,
Kory Kogon
absolutely, absolutely. And by the way, there's addictive qualities that you know, again, you know, the brain has two organizing principles. It avoids threat and looks for reward in that order. And even when you put your cell phone down and it dings, you're attracted to it, because it's an unknown for your brain, like, who needs me? And the reward, the dopamine hit of, oh, somebody needs me is almost more than we can, you know, deal with and and so being that's, that's the signs, you know, of of addiction. So I just want to say to people out there, easier said than done, putting it down, but the most important part about putting it down is that your brain cannot do two things well at one time, use a book called switch or switching. Your brain can switch and we can multitask. But the research clearly shows that if you want to do something with quality, you need to give somebody full attention, so particularly if you are a leader and you. Of people, if you're trying to work on your cell phone and they're trying to talk to you at the same time that you are demoralizing them without even knowing it. Back to the positives. Lots of positives about technology. Remember what I said earlier? There's medical technology that did not exist 15 years ago, that if they did not have that, I would not be standing here today. AI is revolutionizing everything, and the point that you made, Greg is really important. AI has the ability to take on if you know how to use it, because right now, some people, a lot of people, are still fearful of it like they were with other technologies. It's going to take over my job. It's not going to be helpful. AI has a remarkable capability to do some of the tasks that you were doing that was killing your time. And you should be open minded, because it is both easier and harder than ever to achieve extraordinary productivity. You should be embracing and learning. Take the time. It's a quadrant two item. Take a core. We don't have them without what we do at Franklin Covey, go to one of the libraries and make it an important and not urgent task to learn a little about AI and getting the right prompts so that it can write emails for you. It can create a PowerPoint for you. One of my team members, late last night, created a little video script for me to review this morning, those kinds of things. So technology can be amazing. That's why we say rule your technology. Don't let it rule you. Embrace embrace it and find the ways that it's going to help you achieve q2 but don't use your technology in a q3 or q4 quadrant three, quadrant four. Kind of way it
Greg Voisen
is a tool that also allows you to earn more of what you're worth. So what I mean by that is that the tool can take those mundane things you used to do, make them quicker. And let's say you're a consultant, and you charge by the hour, it now allows you to multiply. It's a multiplying effect the numbers of people you could deal with because you're now getting ready many of the mundane tasks. Now, that doesn't mean you don't have an assistant or whatever to help you, but the reality is, is that it has been, I'm just speaking from myself, and I've talked to a lot of people, highly effective, and allowing us be to be of more value to many clients. So you have this rule number five, which is, this is the last one. The last, I should say, choice, not right, fuel your fire. Don't burn out. Focuses on the crucial aspects of maintaining personal energy. And this is really a very, very key takeaway for people. I've I've had many people on the show talk about our energy, how much energy we have during the day. Where can we do it that we have people now that have phones that you put your finger on the back and you get heart rate variability, right? So what is my HRV? Am I in a Go State? Am I in a pause state? Am I what? What state Am I in? And you were just saying you had friends that completely burned out, like, literally, they were just toast, right? And I do believe there's something to this, and even at an organizational level, to look at teams and see it is the team burning out? Have we put too much on the team? Do we need to adjust what it is that we're doing? What are some of the early warning signs of overload and Miss energy management? And what should individuals really watch out for so they don't let's just call it burnout.
Kory Kogon
Well, I you know, I think everybody could answer, you know that, that that question, I think everybody can answer. They know what it feels like. You're not sleeping well, you are snapping at people. You I think really pops through. One is, you finish work. And then I'm pointing there, because that's outside my door to my family, versus the window to the world out there is, you know, you finish work. Do you have anything left? When your partner, your spouse, or any member of the family is like, Oh, I'm so glad you're off work or your home, and they're like, ready to have a conversation with you, and you just don't have anything to give. I mean, those are signs of those are signs of burnout. You know, your autoimmune system starts to fail you if you if you notice that, you know, you tend to get sick on the weekends instead of. When you when you're working. So, I mean, there's a lot of things that you know constitute burnout, and we're at we're actually working on a module now called optimize or enhance team well being, because we do say that the leaders really need to be very reflective on are they burning out themselves? What are the things that they should be doing to model well being and, you know, and energy and and set the model so that the team will mirror that as well. We talk about in the book The five energy drivers. And this is not going to be rocket science for people, eat, sleep, relax, connect with others and move. Not rocket science. But when you think about that, are we doing? Are we moving enough? You know, when the pandemic started, I, like everybody else, came to back, you know, home and sat, I'm looking down here, sat in a chair for a while. It took me about a year before I sat, because I built in furniture. And some one of my people told me about a standing you know, I know this is old news now, but it was really important a standing desk that can sit on my thing that you know, is hydraulic goes up and down. And for the last two and a half years, I stand most of the day and take sitting breaks because you need to move. We're not built to sit like I said earlier. We got enough sleep. That's killer. You can read all the articles on that Ortiz, I
Greg Voisen
hate to say it. I have I hate to say it, but I have two standing desks, and I I had them up most of the time, and there's one right there that people can't see off screen, and there's one right here, that's the electronic one. And 80% of the time it's not up, and it's my own darn fault. But you know what? You just reminded me that I need to start doing these podcast interviews standing so I'm gonna do that. I like that, and I do know that people probably know when they're burning out. One of them is when their mind just gets completely lost and can't focus. Yep, and they literally, I don't want to say daydreaming is bad, but it's actually different than daydreaming. Daydreaming is fun at this state you're just like questioning the whole world, what's going on. And so those are one of the keys for burnout. This is the book, the five choices. I'm going to say everybody should go get that. So if you were to leave our listeners with three main points from the book, what would they be, and how do you recommending using this to achieve and I'm going to say this, I coined a term a long time ago, and I haven't used it in a while, But I used to call it productive harmony, okay, and and I used to teach it in my workshops. I had my own workshops, and people would always say, Well, what is productive harmony? And to me, it's this balance between both our physical, emotional and spiritual well beings being able to bring that to work and make a contribution to not only the people we work with, but our clients and customers right and now bring that back home when we're done, and be able to actually be at one with the people that we love in our life. And so, you know, productive harmony is is a something that I think people need to work on. It might be kind of a weird word for you, but it's one I coined, and I think it works.
Kory Kogon
Oh, I think I think that is great. And I think the three things that I would feed into that is sort of where we started. You have to get clear. And again, a lot of us sort of know it inside this, this neurology or neurological thing of labeling and reappraising, write things down. I know that sounds again. One day, you've heard it a million times. What are the few most important things that would that really will help you feel most accomplished at the end of the day. What's a cue to, and I will also say, to get to that. And this is about choice. Two really important get to that list through thinking through the few, the few, the few most important roles you play in your life right now. So I'm going to productive harmony here, Greg, because for me to say writing with the most important things is functional. Okay, I'll write it down. Yeah, I'm trying to get to emotional, head and heart on this. I am, you know, like I said, a speaker. I'm a VP of content development for Franklin Covey. I take that really seriously, and I have, you know, what we call a q2, statement around my contribution, that's what you said, my contribution. It's not just a job for me. It's it's a contribution to how I help change people and teams and leaders lines to do something different the next day, to be able to achieve in great, even greater, greater, greater things. So not everybody is in a job they love, but there's a purpose for their job. In that role, in the moment, find the purpose and be the best that you can be. If you're a parent, if you're a dog, Mother, if you're whatever you are, a community service person, what are the few, not 20, roles, but what are the few most important roles that you have in your life, and what is extraordinary look like in those roles? And I don't mean solving world peace, although we certainly could use that right now, but just what is, what does accomplishment at the end of the day look like then when you have that now creates, what are the few most important things I need to get done to make sure I'm achieving that? So I've combined my head and my heart. And the third thing I would say is really work on and I have to. I'm speaking for myself, reducing screen time. I know that my brain is totally wired into this. I could feel it at night when I'm trying to go to sleep like now I can't sleep. Let me start. Let me look at the news. You got to reduce the screen time, both for yourself and the people that you love and care for, because what I said to you before, when you're busy working on a cell phone and they're trying to talk to you, have a conversation personally, professionally. That is a killer of productivity, personally and professionally. So those are the three things your list, your roles to get to that list and watch it on your technology. And four would be, embrace it earlier. Like you said, you know, embrace it to help relieve some of the burden.
Greg Voisen
Those are great tips and and I'd add for people, one that I learned a long time ago, which I really tried to do it's like, even we do these shows on Tuesday, right? For me, it's time blocking, yes, and I haven't found anything that's quite as valuable, I'll be honest with you, as the ability to put a time block in your calendar and say, This is what I do now. It's almost like, okay, that's what I'm doing. You know, right now. That's what I'm supposed to be doing right now, versus, oh, I'm supposed to get distracted over here. No, I do all my podcasts. I got them lined up. Yeah, they're all on Tuesday. That's what I do, you know. And people say, Well, do you do them all week long? And I go, No, I don't. I have other things I have to do, right? So the I think it's really, really important to look at it that way. I know this is sounds really strange, but when people produce a TV show, and a long, long time ago, Kory, I was on a show called The Dating Game, oh my and at the time, it was a gentleman by the name of Lang, trying to remember his first name. But he was Lang, oh, you remember his name?
Kory Kogon
See, I was two years old.
Greg Voisen
Okay, so, I'm on the show. And they, they taped the show, and he puts on a whole new outfit, and he comes back out, yeah, he tapes another show, right? And he put on a whole new outfit, and he taped. And I learned something by that they did two weeks of taping in one day right now it he might have been exhausted at the end from all the changes that he had. But the reality was they didn't have to bring in more production crews, more people, more whatever, to make it more expensive. Chuck Berry had it, right. Let's do them all in two weeks, all month, right? So I learned something from that, and I learned a lot from you this morning, and I want to thank you for being on the show and spending some time with our listeners. For everybody who's out there, again, here's the book. It's not a new book by any means. I'm covering my face, but it's a book that's definitely a classic worth getting, picking up, reading and taking some if you only take one or two points from it that we talked about from the interview today, it's really going to help you be at more be in more harmony and be at more peace with your life. And I think that's the most important thing. Kory, thanks for being on the show. Thanks for spending some time with us. You have a wonderful rest of your day.
Kory Kogon
Thanks for having me. Always great. Greg, take care everybody, and I wish the best on everybody's journey to extraordinary productivity.
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Inside Personal Growth with Greg Voisen · Podcast 1146: Regenerative Medicine in Pain Relief with Dr. Neil SpiegelRegenerative medicine is rapidly gaining recognition for its ability to address pain and chronic conditions by promoting the body’s natural healing processes. One of the innovative approaches within this field is the use of intelliFat® BOD, a technology highly recommended by Dr. Neil Spiegel, a distinguished expert in regenerative medicine.
What is Regenerative Medicine?
Regenerative medicine focuses on repairing or replacing damaged tissues, organs, and cells by leveraging the body’s natural ability to heal. Unlike conventional treatments that often provide temporary relief, regenerative medicine aims to address the underlying causes of pain and chronic conditions, offering the potential for long-term recovery and improved quality of life.
The Role of intelliFat® BOD in Pain Management
intelliFat® BOD is an advanced system designed for fat harvesting and transfer. It utilizes the patient’s own adipose tissue to create a biocompatible solution for regenerative therapies. This technology is particularly effective in treating chronic pain and inflammatory conditions, where traditional methods may not provide sufficient relief.
Why Dr. Neil Spiegel Recommends intelliFat® BOD
Dr. Neil Spiegel, a leading figure in the field, recommends intelliFat® BOD to his patients as part of their regenerative treatment plans. This recommendation is based on the technology’s ability to harness the regenerative properties of fat-derived cells. These cells are rich in stem cells and growth factors that are essential for repairing damaged tissues and reducing inflammation—two critical aspects of pain management.
Benefits of Using intelliFat® BOD for Chronic Conditions
Minimally Invasive Procedure: intelliFat® BOD offers a less invasive alternative to traditional surgeries, with shorter recovery times and fewer risks.
Natural and Biocompatible: By using the patient’s own fat cells, the procedure minimizes the risk of adverse reactions, ensuring a more natural healing process.
Effective for Chronic Pain: The regenerative properties of the harvested fat cells provide long-lasting relief from chronic pain by targeting its root cause.
Dr. Neil Spiegel’s Approach to Chronic Pain Management
Dr. Spiegel’s approach to treating chronic pain involves combining cutting-edge regenerative therapies like intelliFat® BOD with a personalized treatment plan tailored to each patient’s needs. His focus is on promoting healing from within, offering a holistic solution that goes beyond temporary pain relief.
The Future of Regenerative Medicine and Chronic Pain
As regenerative medicine continues to evolve, technologies like intelliFat® BOD are likely to play an increasingly important role in how chronic pain and conditions are treated. Dr. Neil Spiegel’s endorsement of these innovative treatments underscores their potential to revolutionize pain management and improve patient outcomes.
You may also refer to the transcripts below for the full transciption (not edited) of the interview.
Interview Transcipt -Not EditedEmailDownloadNew TabGreg Voisen
Welcome back to Inside Personal Growth. This is Greg Voisen, the host of Inside Personal Growth, and joining me from Rockville, Maryland, on the other side of the country. here is Dr Neil Spiegel. Dr Spiegel, good day to you. How you doing?
Dr. Neil Spiegel
Good.
Greg Voisen
Good to have you on the podcast and to speak not only about your practice, but also about how you're using Intellifat and the Cellmyx products. And just to let my listeners know, the show is being sponsored by both Cellmyx and Intellifat. And Dr Spiegel is somebody who actually uses the Intellifat kits in his practice. So, without further ado, Dr Spiegel, I want to let our listeners know a tad bit about you before we get into doing the actual podcast itself. He's a talented physician leveraging traditional and alternative methods to diagnose and treat people in the Washington DC area, and it's osteopathic center for healing and Rockville, Maryland. He attended medical school at NY Institute of Technology College for osteopathic medicine. He went on to finish his postgraduate and residency training in physician, medicine and rehabilitation at New York University. And in more recent years, Dr Spiegel also completed a fellowship in anti aging and functional and Regenerative Medicine, which is really important for the things we're going to be talking about. As the founder and head of his center, he has a special interest in caring for patients which are challenging or difficult to treat conditions with more than 25 years of professional expertise. He also excels in working with men and women who suffer from acute and chronic musculoskeletal and neurological pain syndromes. Throughout his career, he's dedicated to helping people, and he's earned him numerous professional awards, including top Doctor survey awards in the state of Maryland, Volunteer Service Award he saw also a key contributor in developing and growing the free clinic and treating uninsured in Montgomery County, Maryland. He has multiple certifications and fellowships, and he specializes in regenerative and anti aging. Well, welcome to the show, and thanks for taking this time to kind of fill our listeners in, and you kind of start off Dr speak like explaining what these Intellifat kits, which I've mentioned, have done for your practice, and how are you really using them in your practice?
Dr. Neil Spiegel
So one of the things that we do is we treat patients that have degenerative joint disease. So let's take, for instance, a knee. So patients will come to us and they're faced with surgery, meaning a knee replacement, versus treating them with the more traditional methods of maybe physical therapy or cortisone injections, or sometimes What they use, hyaluronic acid, which is a synthetic derived product to replace the synovial flu with a higher viscosity fluid, right? So there's been nothing kind of like in between those treatments and a knee replacement. The problem with knee replacements in general is that, number one, some of the people are too young, and not everybody that has a knee replacement is happy, absolutely so. So the numbers about one in one in five people have still have pain in their the same type of pain after the surgery and after doing a knee replacement, the rehab after a knee replacement is a good year. And even though people kind of feel like their knee replacement helped them, their knee is not totally normal. So the question is, can we do something in the in the middle to preserve the knee? So at the end of the day, I think it's a pain management strategy. It's like, how do we lessen the pain and prolong the life of the joint without having to do major surgery? I mean, that doesn't mean injection
Greg Voisen
itself with the adipose and actually using the adipose and filtering it and then injecting it into the. Knee or the shoulder or whatever area where you're having pain. What we've found is that that actually lasts quite a long time. I mean, it can it's extremely successful. I can't quote exact rates, but I'll tell you between the 85 and 90% range as far as being successful. Have you noticed this in your practice as well?
Dr. Neil Spiegel
So I think I've noticed that only because I picked the right people right so you you have to select the right case. So if a patient has far advanced arthritis and they've already have limited range of motion, it's sometimes difficult right to get to get a good result, but if you have a patient with more mild to moderate disease and they're suffering with pain, I think that it's an excellent choice to use the to use the intellifat kit, which basically helps us isolate what are called the stroma vascular tissue, which is Rich in mesenchymal stem cell to me, what happens is that the most of the time people are coming to us, they they have, not only did generation, which is, I want to kind of enunciate that term, right versus inflammation, there are a lot of people that have degeneration, that don't have pain, they just have mild stiffness, right? But most of the people are not coming to us with mild stiffness. They're coming to us with the stiffness and pain and they have joint swelling, right? So there's fluid in the joint, which basically means that's already quote, unquote, arthritis, right? Inflammation. So I like to distinguish that, especially when I'm teaching the medical students. It's like, what's the difference? Like, you can have arthritis without degeneration, and you can have degeneration without arthritis. People with arthritis will have pain and sometimes
Greg Voisen
go ahead. Well, the interesting thing that you can do when you're practicing this with this with the intellifact kits, is certainly, as you said, the successes and you choosing the right patient, right the right person that this would work well with. And that brings me to this. You know, regenerative medicine is used all over the place. Today, people talk about it and with they also talk about functional medicine. How have these how the kits that you're using kind of align with the principles of the practices that you have chosen to to do in in your organization there and the osteopathic center for healing. How is that aligned with it? How do these kids so, so functional person?
Dr. Neil Spiegel
So, I guess the best definition of functional medicine is, let's get the root cause of illness. If we find the root cause of illness and we somehow can change it. We change everything. So when you, when you the other thing is the body has an intrinsic ability to heal itself if you give it a chance. All right, so, so if we, if we take the the cells from our tissue, and we we've kind of all we're doing is we're taking it from one place and putting it into another place, right? So we're saying, I'm going to take what God gave you, right, pull it out, and I'm going to put it into the place where you really need it, right, to help heal it. So to me, that's the the the basis of functional medicine is really getting the body to heal itself once you realign it. So functional medicine, well, you know the what I do with my patients is not only the regenerative piece, but it's like, what's driving the inflammation?
Greg Voisen
Well, when you're a do and you're practicing like you're practicing, you're actually dealing with people at a level of spiritual, emotional, mental, and you're looking at their diet and nutrition and exercise. And I would think that you're actually making lots of dietary recommendations as well to help to prevent from the inflammation. That be correct.
Dr. Neil Spiegel
I mean, yes, that is correct. Yeah, yeah, that is correct. I mean, you know, there's the old statement, what you are, what you eat, right? And, you know, I always make fun, the American diet is not really good for certain. And you wonder why we're, you know, why we have, you know, you know, an epidemic of obesity and dementia and diabetes and heart disease. It's like, where does it come from? Oh, you know, everybody's Oh, it's genetic. It's like, well, that's not always fair, right? Because there are a lot of people that have bad genes that don't live their life that way and don't die young. You. Yeah, just because they're just because their father had a heart attack, that doesn't mean you're going to have to have a heart attack, right? I mean, so the question is, well, what does heart disease have to do with a knee? It's like, well, it's still inflammation, right? So it's still inflammation. So and a knee doesn't like it when you're overweight. I mean, any orthopedic surgeon will tell you that, you know, it's a simple mechanical thing. And you know, often it's been often say, does it, you know, with a knee, I say, Does it hurt when you go up and down stairs? I said, Yeah, but it doesn't hurt when I walk. And so, well, that's because stairs is three times body weight, and walking his body weight. So well
Greg Voisen
again, when you use these kits in conjunction with treating somebody and actually getting them to change their diet, change their exercise, move more frequently. And obviously, there's so many other things you can do, but let's talk about the conditions and the injuries that you see, whether it's sports medicine, whether it's an elderly population coming in and saying, Hey, I have a pain in my shoulder or my knee or my back or wherever. What types of injuries can you treat with the intellifact kits? And what makes the kits more particularly effective in these conditions in your estimation?
Dr. Neil Spiegel
So I mean, I will treat rotator cuff. I will treat arthritic change of the shoulder joint. I will treat lateral or medial epicondylitis of the elbow, arthritic changes of the elbow the wrist, triangular fibrocartilage, complex tears of the wrist. I'll treat spine related problems, whether or not it's sacroiliac joint or lumbar facet or a cervical facet I've treated, you know, obviously, knees, ankles, patella tendon, quad tendon.
Greg Voisen
How do you determine, Dr Spiegel, that they're a good candidate for this, versus versus some other treatment that you might have. In other words, somebody comes in, we know that this is obviously not the least expensive way to go the reality. But on the other hand, we know that it's highly effective. So if somebody comes into you and they've been complaining of pain, and they've been treated by maybe another doctor, but more than once for the same thing, does this help for you to determine that they might be a better candidate for something like,
Dr. Neil Spiegel
I mean, or I or or I did myself try it, one, you know, so let's say I tried. I'll give a good example. Had somebody who is a about a 70 year old gentleman who had spine surgery twice, and he was still having significant back and hip pain, where he was on medication and was managed by pain management practice with opiates, With chronic back pain and hip and leg pain, and I tried initially to so what first thing I did was I did a ultrasound guided block to was just with like lidocaine and bupu decane to see if I was even in the right ballpark of where the pain was coming from. So I injected around his his sacroiliac joint and the surrounding ligaments and the lumbar facets, and 90% of his pain was gone for about six hours. So I said, Okay, I know that's the pain generator. Now, let's see if I can make a dent and change. So we first used PRP, which is just from the blood, and I did two and I did two rounds after, you know, I did one, and then I think maybe about eight or 10 weeks later, I did it again. I got some mild overall relief, but he was still on the medicines for pain, and
Greg Voisen
those don't do any good for your digestion or your ability to
Dr. Neil Spiegel
know, there's a whole bunch of other real problems with that, right, which, you know, you, you know, when you go on opiates, it'll affect, it's an endocrine disruptor. So it affects, you know, in man, it affects testosterone levels, it affects gut motility, it affects absorption of vitamins. A whole bunch of bad things happen to you, yeah. So I knew that that wasn't, you know, I wasn't able to kind of, you know, get through there, so I so I convinced him to do the the adipose, with with with the intellifat, and I saw him at three weeks post, and he basically said he barely is taking Any medication. So I'm like, so that was a bigger bang than the PRP was, right, right? So even though the PRP was less expensive, right? The question money, you know, for him, money was, it was not as much of an object as as pain relief was because he, he wasn't at his age. He. Wasn't going to go through another spine surgery. Exactly,
Greg Voisen
exactly. Um, so you found an alternative through these kits that could work. And, you know, like I said, we have people where they're working five, six years later. So longevity wise, I think it's, it's it does have the longevity. I can't unequivocally state that that's going to happen to everybody, because that isn't the case, and it doesn't but in about 90% of the cases, it does. Now, Could you walk us through a typical process for treatment when people come in to do this? Because, you know, I think, look, people can go to our website, and they can see the cannula, and then they can see the fact that we're going to extract the fat, and then you're going to basically filter the fat, and then you're going to take so many cc's and you're going to inject that somewhere. What is that process like? Are you doing it all yourself? Are your nurses involved? How do you do it?
Dr. Neil Spiegel
Yeah. So, yeah. So I haven't, I have a nurse. So what I tell patients is, when they first come in for their initial consult, and we've already decided, we've walked through everything, we've decided this is what we're going to do. So they say, what's going to happen? I said, Well, you're going to, you're going to come in, and then I'm, I'm going to look at an area of your back, and we, kind of, like, I usually use, like, a magic marker, and I kind of, you know, put little lines on your back to tell me, you know, where your hip starts and ends, and, you know, so I know where I don't want to, where I don't want the probe to go. Then I, I drape you, and I clean, I clean the area, right so I sterly prep you, and then I make a little incision, and I numb you. But first I know lidocaine. Use light, I use lidocaine and num a little area. And then I make a little incision with a with a number 11 blade, which a little blade. At that point you should be numb. And then I put the the probe in, and I use a combination of temes and fluid, which essentially is a combination of a numbing agent that kind of separates out the fat, and I spread the fat, you know, I spread it out in this kind of fanning type motion. And will it? Will it be painful? Or you'll, you'll feel me poking you, you'll, you'll feel some pain, but it, you know, the numbing medicine will take effect. And then once, we usually put about, if we're going to do like one joint, we usually put around 60 cc's of that fluid in, and then we let it sit there for maybe about 10 minutes. We'd start the timer. And during that period of time, I kind of just, I just sit there and wait and tell stories,
Greg Voisen
yeah? Well, this is pre filtering it, right, yeah, right, yeah.
Dr. Neil Spiegel
And then once we're done, once that 10 minutes is done, I then take the actual device that is used to kind of take the fat out, and it uses a reverse suction, so you're putting the device in, and it has a little blade to it, so it kind of slices through the fat, and then filters it and pulls it into my device. Then I take that fat and I transfer it to another syringe, and I let that sit there for a while, and then as I'm kind of continuing to take more of the fat out, what happens is a lot of the sediment of maybe this, the tumescent fluid, settles to the bottom, and some of the blood settles to the bottom, and I kind of squeeze that out, and then eventually I'm left with some some fat, and I take that fat and I give it to the nurse, and the nurse goes back, and then she starts filtering it as a whole process that she does by putting it through the different filtrations a number of times until she eventually transfers them into these little, maybe Five CC syringes, right? So she gives me, she gives me a bunch of five CC syringes. The reason I like the five cc syringe is because when you're injecting back in if you use like a 10 CCC or 20 cc syringe, it's more pressure and it hurts more. So if I use a smaller like a five cc syringe, it's not as much pressure on the injections when I'm injecting back in and usually
Greg Voisen
multiple times.
Dr. Neil Spiegel
So usually, the other thing I do when they're when they when the nurse is separating and filtering the fat is this, like, if I'm doing like a shoulder for example, I'll take my ultrasound out now find the suprascapular nerve, and I'll do a nerve block so it blocks the sensation of pain. I don't want the Lidocaine to be anywhere near the fat when I inject it in or the adipose tissue. If I'm doing the knee, I'll do. Either a sapphonous nerve block or geniculate nerve block, which are these little nerves that are go into the meniscus or into the knee joint, so that when I go back with my needle, it's less painful. And then once the protocol
Greg Voisen
you're following is certainly quite appropriate and you're getting good results with this correct so,
Dr. Neil Spiegel
you know, I would say I'm getting more than good results. I would say almost all the patients come back and say they're better. The question becomes, is it totally, do I get them pain free? And the answer to that is, a lot of times I don't get them pain free, but I get them, you know, 7580 90% better, which I think, if you compare that to a knee replacement, that's pretty darn good, because I didn't right, I didn't remove your joint. Yeah,
Greg Voisen
a lot, lot less expensive than any replacement, let's face it. So I mean, the the reality is, they didn't have to go through the months and months and months of rehabilitation. You literally did this process within about an hour. That's about how long it takes you to do right? Because, so
Dr. Neil Spiegel
I, usually what I do is I, I for, I allow two hours. And the reason I do is because I don't like to rush the patient because, let's say, they want to slow down a little bit, right? So I, so I, but the truth of the matter is, Can I do it in an hour and a half? Yes, right? Can I do it now in 15 minutes? Yes, but that's if you know, they're, they're, they're gung ho, and I'm able to go, boom, boom, boom. But, you know, a lot of times patients like to, you know, give me a second, you know, of
Greg Voisen
course. So any notable success stories, Dr Spiegel, that you can relate for people that actually underwent the treatment, either for a shoulder or a knee or something like that, where it just like they came back and it was, it was incredible. We've had some crazy success stories, but we'd love to hear if you have one.
Dr. Neil Spiegel
So, you know, I have a crazy success story where I had an older woman, she was in her middle 70s, and she couldn't lift her arm up, and she had a complete rotator cuff tear and had an advanced arthritis of her shoulder, and she said to me, I'm not doing a shoulder replacement, so she would have to do what's called a reverse shoulder replacement. I don't you know what that is, but she would have to do, how to, how to have done a reverse shoulder replacement. And I said, Well, listen. I said, we can do this procedure. I said, but I can't guarantee, because you have a complete tear of the cuff, that you're going to get full function of that shoulder, but I can guarantee that you'll have at least some pain relief. And she said, Fine, Sign me up. So we treated her. And I always bring this case up because it's, it's we always tell patients, you know, the three weeks, six weeks, three months, right? The first three weeks, I tell them, lay low. Don't do anything. Three weeks, you come back, I start them stretching and moving the shoulder. Six weeks I start strength training. I usually say 80% of what will happen happens by three months. That's pretty much textbook of what we tell patients. But not everybody follows and reads the textbook, right? This particular patient comes back in three months. She goes, Doc, I don't think you help much. And I said, All right, well, maybe it's just going to take you more time. And then I lose her to follow up, and she comes back about eight months later. And I said, you know, why are you here? And she said, I want you to look at my knee. And I said, What happened to your shoulder? She said, Oh, that's fine. And she raised her hand up in the air, with no problem.
Greg Voisen
That's a good story. And now she wants to get an injection in her knee. That's all, I said, right?
Dr. Neil Spiegel
And I said, Well, I thought you told me it didn't help you. She said you told me it was going to take three months, and it took
Greg Voisen
five well, for somebody who couldn't lift their arm and needed rotator cuff, that's a true success story. That's a great success story,
Dr. Neil Spiegel
right? So I don't, and I want, I don't want to let people think that I may, that I heal the rotator cuff. I prob the rotator cuff probably was not any different. But what was different was her pain was not there, and she was able to move the arm,
Greg Voisen
yeah. And I think that's the key. The pain management was highly effective in this case, and how do treatments with these kits compare to other traditional pain management therapies or surgeries that you do?
Dr. Neil Spiegel
I mean, so I don't do I'm not I'm not a surgeon. Okay, so I can't compare it to surgery. I can only compare to what what I do. So if we say, well, you know, if we could stay within the realm of regenerative medicine, we're really comparing it to like bone marrow aspirate, right, right, which would be the comparison, or maybe using what's called placental allograft, which has its issues with the FDA. So, so. So if we compared it to using just our own cells, bone marrow versus adipose tissue, right? I mean, if we, if we go to our regenerative medicine conferences, there are people that say, oh, bone marrow is the gold standard, and then half the other room says, oh, no, adipose is the gold standard. And I'm like, I'm not a researcher here. I'm a clinician. It's like so I I tend to, if I'm going to use bone marrow, I tend to use it in very young people, okay, once you're over older, over a certain age, which you know, I tend to stay with with fat. I think that's probably a good rule of thumb. So if I'm comparing that those two, which is a legitimate comparison, I think they both are very good treatments, but you have to choose the right patient.
Greg Voisen
Well, because you do choose the right patient and you do the right intake with them, I would assume that the long term benefits and the sustainability of pain relief. Like you said, with this woman, it took five months, just using her as an example, improves the patients. And would you say that this is happening in most cases, cases with the patients that you're using the Intel effect kits on?
Dr. Neil Spiegel
So most of the patients probably get better within the first three to, you know, three to six weeks, right where they'll come back and they'll say, I said, Well, how you feel? And they say, Well, I think I'm a little better. And I say, Well, are you having difficulty with sleep anymore? And they say, No, I'm sleeping through the night. I said, you able to turn in bed now? They are my bill to turn in bed, you know. Are you able to walk up and downstairs? Yeah, I can walk up and down stairs, but I still feel a little bit of the selfie, you know, that kind of stuff, right? Where you kind of like, they're, they're, they're kind of focusing on what's still there. And I'm like, Well, you haven't done anything yet. It's only three weeks. That's pretty good. I mean, well, it's
Greg Voisen
interesting. You say that because I've relayed this story, maybe on another podcast, maybe I haven't, but I was in a dog park with my dog, and a really big dog hit me. I'm 70 years old, by the way. The guy knocked me on my butt, and I didn't pay much attention, and I got up, but the knee hurt. He hit me like right in my left knee, and I hadn't done anything for a long time. Then it started getting worse, and the long story short as I started getting these red light laser kind of treatment things to it. So the mitochondria would like move around into the knee. And believe it or not, those laser treatments worked quite a bit to help relieve the pain, but it is back again, right? It's back again. So are you using anything like that, or anything?
Dr. Neil Spiegel
Yeah, I used to have a laser, and I used it a bunch, and one of the problems I had with it was that it wasn't the the I don't participate with any insurance, but patients still use my fees, and I send them into the insurance carrier. The the insurance carriers were not recognizing it at all, so that that was one issue with it, and the
Greg Voisen
frequency at which you have to use it is much higher to get the relief and even to get it long term. So to actually pay for an intellifat, and this is me speaking folks to pay for an intellifat process and to actually get long term sustainable relief, but believe me, would be a lot better than
Dr. Neil Spiegel
not doing so that's definitely I'll tell you a story. I had a patient. It wasn't an intellifat story, but it kind of dovetails what you're saying. She had a condition called plantar fasciitis that we usually use regenerative medicine for, right? And she was suffering. She was a runner, and she was suffering for nine months or more, and she had been to physical therapy probably, like 75 times, I'm not exaggerating. And over this, you know, 810, months period, and she basically didn't get any better. And I did a regenerative medicine procedure on her one injection, and she gets better, like in a few weeks, she was four weeks, six weeks, she was much better. She said, You know, I know this cost me out of my pocket, but if you add up all the copays and all the mileage and all the time and all the anchors, she said this was cheaper, yeah, and
Greg Voisen
she's absolutely right, because I've been there, done that. I didn't do 70 treatments, because I don't think I could stand that. But I do understand what you're saying. Now, one of the things that we want to discuss, and you've done an excellent job, Dr Spiegel, of really talking about intellifat and intellifat kits is to kind of let the listeners know too that there's opportunities in this regenerative medicine field and for healthcare professionals and researchers. Now, in particular, you're located in Rockville, Maryland, and I wanted you to talk a little bit about. But you know, what are the collaborative opportunities that might be available for someone listening to this podcast that might be in your area, to actually come in and speak with you at the osteopathic center for for healing.
Dr. Neil Spiegel
So the people that collaborate the best with me are the physical therapists, because they're the ones that are on the ground treating these patients that aren't getting better. So to kind of and not only that, after they're after we do the procedures they need. They need therapy, so they need some kind of guidance with exercise, so they can be very, very helpful. And some of my best referral sources are either physical therapists or chiropractors. The what's interesting, the orthopedic community has started in this area to kind of buy in a little bit, I would say, about three to five years ago, they thought I was, you know, I'm goofy, I'm crazy. This is nothing. You're wasting your money, and now all of all of them have hired nurse practitioners who are kind of injecting in their offices, right? Yes, which is very interesting, how it changed.
Greg Voisen
And are you currently looking for people to collaborate with outside, like additional, as you said, physical therapists, or you looking for people that might want to come in and work with you inside the practice,
Dr. Neil Spiegel
although, well, I haven't been really looking for somebody to expand my practice at this point in my career, but okay, at some point, I probably will. And I would assume that at some point, if somebody does come along, I'll probably have to train them, because I do so many different things in my practice, right? That it wouldn't, you know, to somebody to kind of take over what I do. It's it, nobody's going to come in with all my training, right? So that's it's something that I would have to have, probably, hopefully have to, you know, train them. So I haven't really thought of it that way.
Greg Voisen
What was your other So the other question is, really about the staffing, people that will assist you with this process. Are you currently in need of finding people that will actually help you in the staffing arena as well? In other words, nurse practitioners, people that understand functional medicine, who are into alternative medicine, that are certified and licensed and you're looking to hire. Or is that one of the things you want to do?
Dr. Neil Spiegel
So I have a PA that works with me, and she's a certified functional medicine doctor, PA, I should say. And then i i have an RN and a basically a front desk person, and that's all we really need. We do a lot of nutritional medicine. So we do a lot of IV nutrition and other things to help people that have other illnesses, that Intel, if that doesn't address people have more systemic illness. So I see a lot of people with complex medical problems that that need to bypass their gut to get nutrition. Yeah, it got well. So that's why we have that's why we have the nurse and we have kind of an IV suite that we that we that we see patients, but we, we're kind of, we're, I think we're well staffed. Okay, so I'm not really looking for anybody yet, but if I did, I probably would be looking more for a physician when I'm ready to exit, which I'm not ready to exit yet.
Greg Voisen
Yeah, you're too young for that. You're still waiting. So question, then, what do you see on the horizon here? Kind of subbing things up with relation to look you keep, as they say, your ear to the ground, listening for what's coming, what's changing in your arena. I know one of the physicians that's on the East Coast that uses our product is Dr Paul tortland, and tortland is pretty well recognized when we go to these shows, as somebody who's, you know, pretty advanced in sports medicine is also advanced in the use of intellifact kits and and all of this. What do you see, kind of on the horizon here? Because there are a lot of new scientific discoveries coming around. We do know the FDA is problematic, in many cases, on being able to get some of this approved and actually be able to use it effectively. But what are you seeing, and what do you think is is going to happen
Dr. Neil Spiegel
with with with adipose, or with anything? Well,
Greg Voisen
with that, I'd say, with rat adipose in general, but in the as you kind of speak with your colleagues, and you talk about the various things that are out there, what do you see any things on the horizon? And as far as adipose is concerned, where do you see that going? The use of adipose? Well, I
Dr. Neil Spiegel
would, I would say that the the consumer is going to be a little bit more wise, right, because the information is out there for them to look at, right? Versus just going to the orthopedic surgeon and getting the eyeballs to roll around in their head, right, which is what they usually get right when they talk regenerative medicine with the orthopedist. The east coast, you're on the West Coast, right? So the West Coast is funny. I always make fun. It's like, you live on the Left Coast and we live on the right coast. And it's kind of funny, because in medicine, basically, if you want to look at something that's kind of like out in front, it's always done in San Francisco before it's done in Washington, right? Which is fun. It's funny, but it's not funny. Well, I'm
Greg Voisen
laughing not at you. I'm laughing with you, because here on I will say there is a physician who wrote a book with with Tony Robbin called life force and Robert, Robert Herrera. Herrera is on the bleeding L with with stem cell, right? And we do know there is a lot of controversy there, right? But the reality is, is that you know, you look at Peter, Atia, you look at Dr Herrera, you look at all these books that I've read that are really about longevity, but they're also talk about, like Peter diametes, the advancements in medicine and scientifically, what's happening. And I thought maybe we could wrap the show up with you, maybe giving us some of your words of wisdom about where you think all of this might be headed.
Dr. Neil Spiegel
So I I'll tell you what, what's interesting. So I met about three to about five before covid. So about five years ago, I was in San Francisco. I was actually in Lake Tahoe, and I, I'm sitting on the beach, and I run into a an orthopedic surgeon, and I can't, I don't want to mention his name or what practice he was in, because I don't think that's fair and but let's say he was at one of the foremost sports medicine places in the country, okay, on the west coast, right? Okay? If I said the name, everybody would say, Oh, they're one of the best, right? And so my wife was sitting with me, and she's a physical therapist, and I said to her, listen to what I'm going to ask it. I said, What do you think of regenerative medicine? And he said to me, my ACL reconstructions have gone from six months to six weeks on the field with stem cells in the or now, an orthopedic surgeon on the East Coast would say he's a fool.
Yeah, with the
Dr. Neil Spiegel
exception, with the exception of case study number one, Adrian Peterson, you remember Adrian Peterson, yes, he was a running back for the Minnesota Vikings. He had an ACL reconstruction done by a famous orthopedist named James Andrews, right at the Andrews clinic in Alabama. You remember that story
Greg Voisen
I do, and I also was just reflecting on as you're speaking last night, I'm watching one of the enough to Sideswipe you here, one of the Olympic athletes had three ACL tears and was back in competing in gymnastics, right? So you must realize that they're getting the best of the best, right? Because they are Olympic gold medalists. And literally that ACL tear. She won a gold and had three ACL tears.
Dr. Neil Spiegel
So anyway, Adrian Peterson had an ACL tear. They did an Andrews clinic, which they do a lot of regenerative medicine, right? They, they did stem cells in the or and he was back the same season, and he and he was and he performed at a very high level. So, and I think you like, look at that situation, and you're like, okay, are the orthopedic surgeons on the East Coast just not with it? And I said to him, and then he said to me, there are some things we just don't operate on. Right? That's what he told Wow. He said, we have people in my practice that are like you. And we said, they are. They don't. They never get to me, right? And I said, Why is it that people on the East Coast are so behind you? And he said, Well, let me tell you something. He said I did my he said I did my training at Harvard on the East Coast. And he said my attending physicians thought arthroscopy was going to be a fad. So what do you you know? So, so there are some people that just don't buy in, don't buy in, don't buy in, and they're just late adopters. He said regenerative medicine is the future of medicine in our field.
Greg Voisen
Yeah, it was interesting, because I was looking for the podcast they did with this. He was a neurosurgeon in Oakland, California, and wrote a new news, Newcomb news, come, I think, is David, and he literally stopped doing back surgeries completely. Doesn't believe in it. Let me bring it up, because I think you probably know this gentleman, and I was blown away, because he's now written three or four books saying, Don't do back surgery, right? He said, It's the he is as saying, as a neurosurgeon, it's one of the worst things that you can do. The book is called back in control. The surgeons road road map out of chronic pain. Second Edition by David Hanscom, H, A, N, S, C, O, M, and I was literally blown away, blown away by his analysis, and very effective. Now I don't think that everybody will get out of having a back surgery, but at the same time, as you know, you've treated people with back pain and you've been able to relieve them without back surgery. Would that be correct? Correct?
Dr. Neil Spiegel
So yes, he's an orthopedic surgeon in Seattle. David he's in,
Greg Voisen
he's in Oakland, California, okay, San Francisco, yeah, I'll send you a link. Okay, so the point is, is you you see where it's going. You were literally relating this story about being in Tahoe, talking to this doctor, and then these ACL tears, and where I'm coming from is you're absolutely right. The number of surgeries that are going to actually happen versus the numbers of injections, whether it's intellifat or it's using adipose or you're using stem cell treatment, is on the rise, right, correct,
Dr. Neil Spiegel
yeah, yeah, and the more that it comes, the more literature that comes out, the more the orthopedic surgeons will not say there's no evidence. They keep saying there's no evidence, there's no evidence, there's no evidence, wasting your money, there's no evidence. And I think that more recent years, it's been harder for them to pull that off, if that makes any sense, so it's because the patient, but the patient will come into the comes into the up the orthopedics office with articles, right? I mean, well, wait a minute. This is a peer reviewed medical journal here. This is an orthopedic This is an orthopedic journal,
Greg Voisen
right? Well, I'm pleased for the fact that doctor Spiegel, we've got physicians out there like you who aren't immediately rushing people down the path to get a back surgery or have a shoulder replaced or a knee replaced because of the not only just the pain, but also the time that it takes to recuperate from those when we do have alternatives, and you're willing to do that, and the patient's willing to do it, they're finding their experiences are really good. And I want to thank you for being on on the show, on behalf of cell mix and intellifat, and on behalf of inside personal growth, which publishes this podcast, thank you. Thank you for being on and thanks for taking the time to give us some insight, your some of your insight about how you use these intellifact kits, and your wisdom around where this is maybe headed. And basically what it sounds like is less and less surgeries and more and more injections.
Dr. Neil Spiegel
Thank you.
Greg Voisen
Thanks so much.
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Inside Personal Growth with Greg Voisen · Podcast 1145: Leadership and Self-Deception, Fourth Edition with Mitch WarnerJoining us this episode to share details about the fourth edition of their upcoming book is one of the authors of Leadership and Self-Deception, Fourth Edition: The Secret to Transforming Relationships and Unleashing Results and part of The Arbinger Institute, Mitch Warner.
At the heart of Leadership and Self-Deception is a simple yet profound concept: self-deception. This refers to the ways in which we blind ourselves to our true motivations, leading to dysfunctional relationships and poor organizational results. The book, written in a compelling narrative style, reveals how leaders unknowingly sabotage their own success by failing to see themselves and others clearly.
The updated edition introduces a broader cast of characters, making the concepts even more relatable to a diverse audience. Through engaging stories and examples, readers can easily see how self-deception plays out in the modern workplace and, more importantly, how to overcome it.
What’s New in the Fourth Edition?
This edition has been completely rewritten to include new content that addresses the evolving challenges of today’s leaders. Here are some of the key updates:
Broader Representation: The book features a more diverse set of characters, ensuring that a wider range of readers can see themselves in the stories and scenarios presented.
Updated Stories and Examples: The examples have been refreshed to better align with the complexities of the current work environment, making the concepts immediately applicable to readers’ professional lives.
Practical Guides: One of the standout features of this edition is the inclusion of guides for individual and group study. These tools help readers and teams apply the book’s concepts in real-world situations, facilitating lasting change.
Why You Should Read This Book
If you’re a leader, team member, or someone looking to improve personal relationships, Leadership and Self-Deception offers invaluable insights. The book helps you identify the lies you might be telling yourself and provides practical steps to break free from these patterns. The result? More authentic relationships, enhanced leadership effectiveness, and, ultimately, better organizational results. The new group discussion guide also makes this book an excellent resource for team development. By working through the material together, teams can align on key concepts and collectively work towards a culture of openness, accountability, and trust.
Final Thoughts
The fourth edition of Leadership and Self-Deception is more than just a book—it’s a blueprint for transforming how you lead and interact with others. Whether you’re revisiting this classic or discovering it for the first time, the updated content and practical tools make it an essential read for anyone serious about personal growth and organizational success.
You may also refer to the transcripts below for the full transciption (not edited) of the interview.
Interview Transcipt -Not EditedEmailDownloadNew TabGreg Voisen
Welcome back to Inside Personal Growth. This is Greg Voisen, the host of Inside Personal Growth, and joining me from Utah, he said, kind of North of Utah is Mitch Warner. And Mitch works at the Arbinger Foundation, or Institute, I should say. And they've had a book out for many years, but it's gone through several different iterations and rewriting, and a new one will come out in spring of this year called Leadership and Self-Deception. Do you have a copy of the book you can hold up or no?
Mitch Warner
Copies are with the publisher, so they'll be printed here in in August and released in the fall of this year.
Greg Voisen
Okay, so Mitch, thank you for being on Inside Personal Growth and spending a few minutes with our listeners to talk about this new edition that's coming out. But Mitch is a bestselling author and Arbinger Managing Partner, background in healthcare and organizational turnaround. He's also the coauthor of Arbor news, latest bestseller, and this was the outward mindset. He writes frequently on practical effects of mindset at the individual and organizational levels, as well as the role of leadership in transforming organizational culture and results. Mitch is an expert on the topics of mindset and the cultural change. Leadership strategy, performance management, organizational turnaround and conflict resolution. He's a sought-after speaker, and as I said, he's a partner. He is a managing partner at the Arbinger Institute. If you want to learn more, we're going to have a link to the blog, and it's going to go to Arbinger, a-r-b-i-n-g-e-r.com, that's arbinger.com there you can learn more about all the programs that the Institute promotes. But today we're going to be talking about their new, revised book, which has been out, as he said, Since when was the original printing of this 2000 2000 Okay, so we're talking 24 years, for a long time. So, it's gone through four different iterations. So if you would tell people a little bit Mitch about the institute, how it works, kind of how it was set up, and what your role is there. I think they'd like to know that. You
Mitch Warner
bet? Yeah, really, the Arbinger Institute is a organization that is dedicated to bringing the self deception issue out in the front for the public, for organizations who are wrestling with it but don't know that they're wrestling with it. I mean, there's massive organizational dysfunction, huge cultural challenges in organizations. And in our research over the last really, 45 years, what we've uncovered is that self deception, this fundamental issue that's beneath behavior, is what's driving that dysfunction. So our work is to work with organizations to help them overcome those challenges, to really bring humanity back into the workplace, and help organizations see what's possible when they do
Greg Voisen
so at the speed of which things are going today, around leadership and all this custom design, and many of These organizations that are custom designing, I know that basically, Marshall Goldsmith speak speaks about this a lot. He's been on the show many times, and as a good friend, you know, we've got to kind of really look at more customization for people in leadership roles. We've got to foster that. Where are, is the Arbinger Institute, with relation to actually kind of progressing that forward, because we are seeing such huge speeds of change, Mitch and people trying to just get a grasp around all the uncertainty.
Mitch Warner
Yeah, you know, it's interesting for me, when I look at what leaders are grappling with, they so often want to find the answers outside of the organization, that there's some, you know, there's some silver bullet, something that they could do behaviorally, that would change what they're accomplishing, and that somebody's innovated around that, and they can bring that in and adopt it. But the problem that I find with that, the problem we find within organizations, is that what's really at the heart of leadership is not some behavior that the leaders put on that's in response to some new challenge. It's actually learning to see the people that are around them, to see the people that they lead as people. People, and to enable those people, to empower them to see those that they're serving as people. All the innovation that needs to happen happens when people see the people that they're serving as people, and they become so curious and alive to their needs, not well, this is what I've been tasked to do from a leader from on high, and so I'm going to do that, and the leaders figured out how everybody's supposed to do all of this stuff. It's that leaders see people as people, and they empower them to see those that they serve as people. And when that happens, those people on the front lines of the work say, you know, there's something we could be doing differently that would be more helpful given all of these changing circumstances of our rapidly evolving environment. What if we did that? And I have the power to do that. That's where the innovation happens that I'm seeing in organizations. It's not because a leader puts on some new behavior that's being directed from some innovation expert. It's that within that organization, they learn how to see people and then become incredibly immediately responsive and feel empowered to do that. That's where we're seeing the most powerful innovation happening.
Greg Voisen
Well, so Laura is, you know, and you're, you're leading to, or talking about, you know, this high level of emotional intelligence, to be empathic, to have a high level of understanding and to communicate better with people, communicate with compassion and understanding, while at the same time making some hard decisions. As a leader, you've got to do both. You know, there's it's a double edged sword. How would you define self deception, and why is it such a pervasive issue in leadership and in organizations today. I mean, obviously you guys wrote this book originally 2020 here we are, 24 years later, and it's still the same problem.
Mitch Warner
Yeah. Well, look, self deception is really just the problem of having a problem and not knowing that I have a problem and resisting that fact. I mean, you can think about the people in your life who have challenges and create challenges for other people, and if that were the only problem, all you'd have to do is tell them, hey, you're creating a problem in this way for others. But that's not how it goes. You know, people are so resistant to the possibility that they are even part of the problem that they're experiencing. And that's really self deception. It's becoming blind to the the reality that exists around me, of which I'm a massive contributor. And so this distortion, this this self deception, is is the problem of having a problem, not knowing I'm that problem, and fundamentally resisting that fact. And you see that showing up also all sorts of places and organizations,
Greg Voisen
almost like they're blinded by it, right? Or they're not in touch with it. They're not seeing it. So, you know, I think for our listeners, it might be good for you to look at the self deception and share kind of a real life example of self deception from the book and how it impacts an organization, because one of the ways everybody learns is by examples and by stories. So the more stories we can tell, the greater that is an opportunity for my listeners to learn. Do you have a good one from the book that you'd like to talk about?
Mitch Warner
Oh sure, well, you know, Greg, we actually wrote the book in a narrative form, a fictional narrative, because we felt like it'd be easier for people to see themselves in the book if we wrote it in the story form. But then within the book, there's lots of different vignettes that we pulled from our clients and a number that we pulled from ourselves. In fact, one of the stories that we included in this last edition was an experience that was happening inside our own organization, and between sales and marketing, we have, you know, these two powerful organizations, sales and marketing, that were in the middle of what was really a pretty a pretty nasty conflict. And the reality was, when you think about self deception, neither group could see fully how they were contributing to the problem. They had all the excuses in the world as to why they couldn't do their work based on the work of the other right? So I can see exactly how marketing is a problem from the sales perspective, and from the sales perspective, I can see exactly how marketing is a problem, but I can't see how I'm actually contributing to that or even provoking it. What we discovered internally is that what was happening was what we call a collusion. A collusion isn't just a conflict where both sides are stuck in self deception and can't see how they're contributing to it. A collusion is actually a dynamic in which both parties are provoking the other party to be blameworthy. Because if I choose to see you as less than a person, I'm actually never okay with that. So I have to provoke you to engage in the very behavior I say I don't. Like because at least then I'm justified in having chosen to see you as less than a person, as a problem. And we saw that internally. And the two leaders of those teams realized that what we talk about all the time, what we help organizations uncover, was happening right here in our organization, between those two teams. And you see that all the time, sales and marketing. See it between sales and finance. You see it all over the place, doctors and nurses, these departmental team by team, collusions. And what was fascinating was that we just applied our own work that we help organizations apply to ourselves. And we said, Okay, well, what's happening here is this the full truth? What we've these narratives that we've been developing about each other now, they're not the full truth. In fact, if, if we really see the other side as people, we could start to get curious about, what are their needs, what are their challenges, what are their objectives? How are we getting in the way of that? How are we making that harder? And when you become curious like that. When you regain a sense of each other's humanity, all of those problems just go away, and the collaboration transforms. And so we actually in the middle of writing that fourth edition, seeing that happening internally, we said, we gotta just be really straightforward about putting that in the book. That's a very clear example that I think people see inside their own organizations all the time.
Greg Voisen
I think the psychology that is really something to kind of investigate, because, you know, as social media has prevailed the, I'm going to just say the divide in this country about what we think about other people and their opinions. I mean, I'm using this example, but this is a great example, even in the workplace, right? It it's like, Okay, I've got a different generation that thinks a little bit differently. I'm coming from a certain spot all of these things, versus seeing people that you've said now, like probably 15 or 20 times, and seeing the person as another person, right? Really having some level of compassion and empathy. And I think it's the Dalai Lama who said this, and he always laughs all the time. He says, The only thing that's going to save this place is compassion and the compassion for the other souls. So what are some of the common ways self deception affects a person's professional and personal relationships, according to the research that you've done at Arbinger Institute, because there is truly a huge impact, not only professionally, but personally.
Mitch Warner
Oh, yeah, it it doesn't matter what, what the context of a relationship is, whether that's happening in your home, whether that's happening in work, the dynamic is the same. It's just the particulars are different and and self deception destroys relationships in every context. You know that dynamic we were just talking about collusion. If I've chosen to see the people around me as less than people, they sense that they'll respond to that apart from any behavior that I might be engaging in on the surface, and and, and I will end up provoking those very behaviors I say I don't like I won't be able to see it. That's the problem of self deception. I will, I will systematically blind myself to all evidence that would refute this caricature of the other person that I've created in my head. And so will they. And I'll go on the lookout for evidence that confirms that this person is not worthy of my regard. This person is not worthy to be seen as a person. And what you said, Greg, is interesting. We'll often use labels as a very quick shorthand to find whole swaths of excuses as to why this person isn't fully in person. Yeah,
Greg Voisen
well, if you would, and this is, wasn't one of our Pat questions, but it always pops up for me when we're talking about personal development, which is what this is. You know, everybody has an ego, and everybody runs around with a set of beliefs, and those particular beliefs frequently get in the way of having a meaningful conversation about the truth. And so when you keep saying self deception, we speak about the truth. What is the truth? So is my truth Your truth. Is their truth, my truth, if you would address that issue because, look, the ego beliefs, whatever you want to refer to, it is, but it is true. Beliefs can change, but when somebody stands very firmly on a belief and won't get off of the pedestal, it has. Has this effect to repulse the other person, right, meaning that they're going to go further away. They're going to have less opportunity to interact with you. They're not going to want to do that. What would you say about that? I know it wasn't one of our Pat questions here, but obviously this material is material. It's real deep and very rich,
Mitch Warner
Greg, would you just indulge me in just playing out a quick hypothetical? Because I think we can talk in the abstract, and that's not as helpful as if we talk about, like, how this really carries out. Sure. Okay, so imagine you and I work together, okay, and, and let's say that I come across a piece of information that I know would be really helpful to you. Well, if I'm seeing you as a person, which is, I think the fundamental truth that matters most is that you are a person who matters as much as I'm at but let's say that I come across a piece of information, and if I'm seeing you as a person, if I'm alive to that truth, then I'll just have a sense. Oh, go share the information with Greg, and I'll go do that, and then I'll continue on my work, and we'll be still focused on results. But let's say I don't, let's say I choose not to share that information with you. What happens all of a sudden, I begin to see you and myself in a totally different way. I might see you as lazy, because, you know, if you were doing your work, you'd come across this information anyway. I might find you as see you as needy. I might see you as a problem that only one of us can get the promotion that's coming up, right? And how would I see myself? Well, I'm hard working, I'm smart, you know, I clearly was doing my work. That's why I came across this information. And I'm a victim in all of this, because now I have to wrestle with whether I give you this information. Notice what just happened to my world. And you talk about this abstract idea of the truth, the reality is the truth that I started with was that you're a person, you matter like I matter. And because I was grounded in that truth, I just had a sense to give you the information, share it with you. The moment I choose not to do that, to betray my own sense of what you as a person deserve for me, then I have to create an entire world that is untrue, that is distorted, and who created that me, you don't even know that is going on, Greg, that's why we call it self deception. It's it. It's a distortion of my own creation. And yet I believe it, and everything in my life tells me that that's true, that distortion, all my feelings, all my emotions, can't be trusted anymore. You know the way I feel about you, the way I see you. Now, you know how I talk to other people about you, and it doesn't end there in my relationship with you, Greg. Now you know being so hard, working, so smart, so capable. You know, a victim in all of this. Do you think I'm just gonna put that view of myself down when I walk into another circumstance? No, I'm gonna that now becomes characteristic of me, and I'll engage with the whole world through the lens of this distorted view of me and everybody else I see in relation to that distorted view of me. I walk into a meeting and I'd say, Yeah, I'm super focused on results. I care about just having the best idea. No, I don't. I now care about making sure that that image of myself, that's a distortion, that's not the truth, is preserved. And if you, if you support that great we're friends. If you threaten that, because you now have a great idea that's not okay. You know what I mean?
Greg Voisen
So Well, the first thing that happened by you withholding the information that you didn't share from me created this false sense of reality for you, but at the same time, it was not a place where you moved into collaboration, you moved into competition. And so the reality is, is it became about you, not about us, right? It's either we or I, right. And I think when you start to remove the i from most of this conversation, you now start to talk about we, and if it is in the best interest of we, it's in the best interest of we as a team, as a company, as whatever it is that we're moving in, because we need to move together. I do know that there's challenges in that, and so I'm going to ask you a question, what strategies do you recommend for leaders today to overcome this self deception and improve their leadership effectiveness? Now you could easily say, Well, you hit the nail on the head. It's about cooperation and not competition. It's about seeing the other points person's point of view. But I think there's something even deeper.
Mitch Warner
Yeah. I mean, look, it doesn't help anyone who's stuck in self deception to say, hey, being. Collaborative that doesn't help. Because all the reason in the world why collaboration is not only hard, it's impossible with someone that I don't see as a person. So in our experience, rather than just say, well, you're behaving in a competitive way, behave in a more collaborative way that doesn't help. You've got to actually remove the blame. And so I'd say, first of all, be on the lookout for blame for excuse making. That's that's a really clear telltale sign that that there's self deception that's going on in an organization. But I'd say, as a leader, the strategy to overcome that is to get really curious. To just get really curious. Who are the people around me? What are their needs, what are their challenges, what are their objectives? What's life like for them? What's it like for them to work with me as their leader? And if I can get curious about that, then it's not a it's not a self improvement project that keeps me focused on myself, that that bolsters this ego that you're talking about. It's, it's about getting outside of myself. That's the key strategy. Is, who are these people around? What are their challenges? What's their reality? And now my leadership is in response to them, rather than just, you know, adopting some behavioral prescription or trying to get other people to adopt some new behavior that they're not engaging. Does that make sense? Yeah.
Greg Voisen
Well, I think curiosity. You know, I have had Steven Kotler on here many times, and we've talked about this whole process of getting from and most people who are in leadership are very curious. And you've said curiosity a few times, but moving from a place of curiosity to a place of a purpose, from a place of purpose to a vision and or a goal, and then from that vision and or goal down to the proximal goals that need to happen with inside of our organization to act to actually achieve the vision. But it all started, interestingly enough, with the curiosity to want to find an initiative that I could help solve a problem, or I could help somebody else, or I could do something else. So when you follow that little train of thought that I just had, how does how can an organization create a culture that minimizes this self deception and promotes genuine and I'm going to underline the word genuine collaboration. We're just talking about competition versus collaboration. And I think some of the companies that have exemplified it true life stories that I would point to that kind of pop out right of the way. And I use this example because they think they have a culture that is inclusive, and Patagonia would be one. Zappos was one when Tony was around, and I'm sure it probably still is the same. But when you get organizations of people together, 1000s of people in organizations, you have differences opinion. You have different communication styles. You've got different ways, but you've got leaders that are supposed to be uniting people to move in one line towards some kind of alignment to get some mission accomplished. How would you say we can do this with greater levels of collaboration and get rid of this self deception?
Mitch Warner
So a great question. Well, first, I think, to have a shared language inside of an organization that enables us to pinpoint what's really going on when there is dysfunction, when there's a breakdown in collaboration, you know, when we only have kind of behavioral constructs through which to see what's really what's happening. That's where we think the problem is. We don't, we don't have language, a shared language, inside of an organization to pinpoint the deeper issue and to diagnose that together. And I think that's step one. But step two, what you were talking about that look, we've got to have people that are aligned, that they see their work and then the various sub pieces of their work, and in a way that is aligned with everybody else. In my mind, what happens in organizations is that people fundamentally misunderstand what it means to have a job and and if you can't, if you don't get that right, nothing that you do will matter. You know, people think that my job is to do a set of tasks, and I might have even some fairly robust objectives around those tasks, but they're not necessarily connected to other people. And the way we measure what it means to have a job and to do a job, well in an organization, reinforces. All of those challenges that we see around self deception. So So you can imagine an organization that fundamentally rethinks what it means to have a job in the organization that my work isn't just to do a set of tasks or achieve a certain set of objectives. It's to do that in a way that enables all of the people impacted by what I do to be more successful in what they do, that fundamental shift changes everything, because now we're not trying to impose collaboration that we're and we're fundamentally fighting against the way people are thinking about their work in imposing collaboration, we're saying no, no, your work in the beginning is to see who's impacted by what you do, and then for you to become really curious about what they're trying to accomplish. It's then on you to find ways to adjust what you're doing to help them be more successful. What what gets measured gets done. But you look at organizations where we're not measuring the impact that people are having on the people around them and their ability to succeed. We're sitting What are your objectives? What are your tasks? Are you getting those done? Are you, you know? Are you on or off target? What are your capability sets? But in terms of the impact, we're not measuring that. So part of what we do inside of organizations to make sure that this actually lives and breathes that real, as you said, real, authentic collaboration happens is we help people fundamentally rethink what it means to have a job by measuring as part of their job the impact that they're having on others. When that shift happens, it unlocks sustainable, real, authentic, organic collaboration.
Greg Voisen
Value. Of those are three, three very powerful words put together in that sentence. So what I want to do is not extract or pick on the sentence, but I think at Arbinger Institute, you guys have years of experience at looking at cultures inside organizations. You also know that there's stakeholders that still have to be satisfied as a result of what it is that I do based on my job. Meaning, okay, yeah, I've got a job, but at the same time, I have stockholders, I have stakeholders, I've got vendors, I've got all these other people, and in big corporations, that is kind of the way it still runs. It's still looked at as we've got to be profitable or we're not going to be in business. We love the fact that we treat our people with empathy and compassion, but we still have to be in business and we still have to make a profit. If you were to comment on some statistics since you've been with Arbinger and what you could relate to my audience. What would you say if they made an investment in this, the return is going to be in the way of engagement, retention, people staying in their jobs, people enjoying their jobs, more people wanting to come to work and share their ideas, people being more innovative and creative and finding solutions to help the greater good.
Mitch Warner
Well, you know, we put out multiple research reports every year that actually tracks those across across organizations as a whole, and then we have a number of case studies that show organizations that engaged in that kind of an investment, and what their return was based on what they were trying to achieve, whether that was greater retention or engagement or profitability. And I would just say this across the board, what we find is in line with what a study that was conducted by McKinsey a couple years ago found they surveyed through a longitudinal study of many, many organizations across industries. What happens in organizational change? So it doesn't matter what you're trying to change. They looked at all sorts of organizational change initiatives, and they found that organizations that identify, there's a direct quote, organizations that identify and address mindset at the outset are four times, four times more likely to succeed in whatever they're trying to change than organizations that bypass mindset change and go directly to behavior change. So when
Greg Voisen
you you wrote a book on mindset. So maybe we'll talk just to tad. You know guy, Kawasaki was just on the show for think remarkable his book. And I love the gentleman because of his background with Apple and Mercedes Benz and Canva and all that. But Carol Dweck, who basically has, obviously somebody you've studied and looked at mindset, and we look at that explain to the listeners who maybe don't know, because you are one of the experts on this, what that really means and how it makes an impactful difference.
Mitch Warner
Great question. Look, when we think about mindset, we think about what is actually driving. Behavior, we know that behavior has an origin. Where is that? It's in how we see, and when you think about mindset, how I see, that's both driving the behaviors that occur to me to engage in, number one, and the influence and effectiveness of those behaviors. Number two, there's lots of different ways that we can look at mindset. You know, for example, Carol Dweck, who you mentioned, she's looking at a fix to the growth mindset, which is really a fundamental belief about me and my inherent, inherent ability to grow or not to grow. There's all sorts of other ways that we might look at mindset. And many different, many different researchers have looked at different ways that we can understand mindset, that the way I see myself in the world, that drives behavior. But what we have found over the 45 years of working with organizations of all kinds and sizes and the research we have done is that the fundamental difference in mindset that matters most to organizational and personal effectiveness is not how I see myself, it's how I see other people, whether I see people as people or fundamentally as objects. You know, whether that's a vehicle in my way or or vehicle I use, or an obstacle in my way, or just irrelevant to me, the way that I see other people changes what I do and the influence of what I do more than any other way to understand mindset. So rather than focusing on, hey, I've got to change my mindset in order to be more effective in an organization, or if I'm the leader, I've got to change everybody's fundamental self view. What we've found is more effective is we've got to help people become alive to the people around them. We've got to help people see each other as people. What's that shift in mindset happens? The behaviors that you want to see change? They happen spontaneously out of that new mindset. That's what we found.
Greg Voisen
I think you're absolutely right. Mitch, I want you to run for president, because we don't have a candidate, at least one of them that sees the world from that kind of mindset. So and and because this is my podcast, I can have some political say. So there, you know it. It is true. You know that that how we see other people as human souls with the same needs and wants and desires that we have to live a good life, to be involved with their family, to be engaged in their workplace, to make a difference in the world in some way, whatever it may be, through their work or outside community work, to be involved in community, to give back all of these things. You're we? The guy that founded TED talk just wrote a book on infectious generosity, and, you know, my program supports a nonprofit that I started. So the reality is, it's like, you know, how are you giving back, and what sense of self worth do you have as an individual with respect to that? And I might be getting a little philosophical here, but on the other hand, I think not so much. I think that what defines your edges is your edge, and the edge that you have is the ability to wake up every morning and make a contribution, no matter where it is or what you're doing, and a contribution in a positive way. And that leads me to you guys talked about here the role of feedback, right? So here we are. I'm somebody, I'm a leader. I've got a team. Let's just define the situation now. What role does feedback play in addressing self deception, and how can leaders effectively give effective feedback? Hang on one second. I'll try and get rid of this. There we go. We'll try that again. That should have been on. So let me ask the question again, because we'll cut that. So what role does feedback play in addressing self deception, and how can leaders effectively give and receive feedback?
Mitch Warner
It's a great question. You know, to overcome self deception, I have to get outside of myself, and sometimes that's really hard to do. Sometimes, getting feedback from someone else about how I'm showing up and the impact that I'm having that I have fundamentally chosen not to see systematically blinded myself to is really, really helpful. And so I rely on that from others who see me as a person, and I would say that that is at the heart of great feedback. It's not so much a formula. People see through that all the time, that's it. And if I give feedback, that's really formulaic in nature, or because I feel like, well, that's what I'm supposed to do, that's what you're going to respond to. But we also all had the. Experience of getting feedback from someone that really sees us where our success, we knew mattered as much to that person giving us the feedback as their success, and even if it was clunky, we just responded. You know, we weren't defensive, because we knew that they cared. And I think that's the core of it, is, if I can see the people around me as people that matter like I matter, I'm going to tell them the truth, and they'll know that I'm telling them that truth because they matter, because I see them as a person. I'm working with the leader right now who is really struggling to give clear and direct and straightforward feedback to someone, and as we looked at that, the person felt the person I was working with, this leader, felt paralyzed because they felt like they didn't know how to do it. But what we got to was actually this person doesn't yet matter to you the way you mattered. And once that shift happened, once that leader started to think about what, what do I really want for this person? What do they want for their own career? What would be most helpful to them, the truth about what was going on, at least the way the leader saw it. They couldn't hold back and from giving them that. And I've seen that in my own life, you know? I I see it as a leader the times where I'm just self focused and it's about me, and I postpone doing the right thing and to having a hard conversation. It's just about me.
Greg Voisen
It's not true human and, you know, many times we give signals in other ways than verbal feedback. You know, there's nonverbal feedback, and a lot of times that's like stuff where you're not available. You tell people to go away and you don't have time. And you know, because we've got so many things in our world today that literally can take us from focusing on being here now, being in the present moment. And one of the best things a leader can do is learn to recognize that staying in the moment, that staying present. There was a book risen about presence and leadership is the most important thing that that somebody can do. Now I realize the words I say are easier to talk about than they are actually to execute in the course of the day. But I've always said that, if you just took a video camera and somebody followed you around during the course of the day and then they played back the video camera, would you like what you saw? And I think if you liked what you saw, then that's your letting, your leading an honorable wife. If you didn't like what you saw, then you need to start changing some of these things, which leads me to organizational it's not only personal change, but so organizational and cultural change. What steps can organizations take to ensure that overcoming self deception leads to long term, sustainable change. Now that's for a lot of my listeners out there today in middle management who are listening to this podcast, they're going to say, great, you know, we've tried these change initiatives, and how many change initiatives fail? You know, 80% of them that we've tried have failed, and they've failed because of resistance. They failed because of the mindset. They failed because of the self deception. They failed because of all of these factors that we haven't addressed. Now I understand that, and this question is a big one, because the key word here is sustainable. If I'm going to go into a project to change, I certainly should want it to be sustainable, because I see that change as being something better than, not less than any comments.
Mitch Warner
Look it takes discipline mindset. Mindset is a fluid thing, and so I don't just change the mindset once in an organization and we're good. Now, if I'm engaging in behavior change alone, I should expect those to fail. Don't be surprised. We work with organizations all the time that have seen those fail, but when you're working on mindset and you're fundamentally helping people see differently, that's fluid, and it takes discipline, and what I said before is critical. We create experiences where people learn to see the reality around them, that people around them more than they ever had before, and that that prompts, it sparks behavior change more than talking about behavior change, but the only way to keep that alive is what we were talking about earlier. It has to be measured. It has to be baked into the way we work. Think about this. There is nothing that any person does in an organization, nothing that is not designed or intended to help someone else be more successful. If there is don't do it. You know you were talking about. Stakeholders before the stakeholders are looking to have a return on their investment. They're looking for an organization to succeed. If an organization is filled with people that say, everything that I do is to help other people, and we're going to measure it. That measurement is the discipline that keeps that mindset focused outwardly, not inwardly, on me, but on the people around me. So I'd say, look, step one, get out of the behavior change only paradigm. Let's move to shifting mindset. And you can it's possible, but then once you do recognize that will be fluid, people can easily fall back into self deception the moment I choose not to see a person as a person. I've got to have excuses for that, and I'm going to build those excuses so I fundamentally have to continue to see my job and have my performance measured in terms of what other people are accomplishing as a result of
Greg Voisen
how I show well, those those KPIs that we're measuring, those things that we're measuring as a company. And I think I remember having an author on here that wrote a book called Flux. It's now been a huge success. And I think in many of these organizations, what we would define as flux is our ability to kind of low, our ability to not resist, our ability to bend, our ability to move and change, versus being so rigid, which is why, when I look at leadership training programs these days, I look for, where is the flux? Where do we design this so that it's better? And looking ahead, what do you see as the biggest challenges and opportunities for leaders in addressing self direction in this increasingly complex world, which it might be perception, but I think to many people today, they're actually feeling that it's not to them, that it's not complex, that it isn't challenging, that it isn't uncertain. What are some of the opportunities that you see for leaders addressing it and working in the kind of environment that we are today, which is hugely complex, very uncertain in many circumstances, and no ability to kind of predict The future per se, and this ability to grab or put our hands around something and feel like we're making a difference at the same time, sometimes I say David Allen used to say, you know, and getting things done, right? This goes down to accountability, getting things done. He used to say that you used to have to have an inbox, and he's going to be on the show next week around a book called team. So I'll plug that for people, you got to have all this amorphous stuff that's floating around out there that we're trying to get our hands around. We've got to have an inbox that captures that and a place to put it. And I always thought that was so brilliant, because much of this stuff floats around, but we allow it to float around in our minds, and then it takes up room, and we can't do the things that we really want to do. So personal self management that way is a key factor. But there are other huge opportunities I'd like for you to address.
Mitch Warner
You know, I have a friend named Warren and had a, what appeared to be a very successful career in mortgage banking, I'd say, in the multi billion dollar organization of which he was a part. He was seen as a leader, in fact, maybe the most productive, in terms of getting things done. He got things done. And then one day, a few years ago, his CEO, who was engaged in this work, sat down with him and said, Hey, Warren, we're not getting what we need from you. And it was shocking to him, especially kind of at the late stage of his career, with all this evidence of his performance behind him and and the CEO cared enough about him and the company to say, actually, Warren, it's not about getting things done that's important, but you're getting things done at the expense of others in this organization and their success and in order for you To stay even though you're the highest producer inside of this multi billion dollar company, or one of the highest producers, you have to now get things done in a way that helps other people be more successful. And that was a fundamental shift, and it changed both Warren his experience in the company and at home, and it changed the ability of the company to succeed in what for them is a highly kinetic environment where they have to adapt all the time. But you've got people internally who say, Yeah, accountability is about getting things done. No, it's not about getting things done. It's about getting things done. You. In a way that takes into account my impact on others. If you can make that shift, you can navigate all of the complexity the world is going to continue to change. It's going to become even more kinetic and and there's challenges in that we're now not actually physically face to face. We don't get to interact with people in the same so many of our interactions are tech mediated, nice, but exactly like this one, but at the end of the day, I've got to see my work differently. And when you have an entire organization of people who see their work that way and hold themselves accountable for their impact, not just what they get done, it changes actually what they prioritize? Right? If I see my customers that way, what are they trying to get done? No, what are we trying to do as an organization? Are we doing that really well and efficiently and all that? No, no. The ones that will last, the companies you're going to be talking about Greg in 10 years, are the ones today who are asking themselves, what's our customer trying to get done? What's life like for them? What could we do differently that would be helpful? Now, all of those things in my inbox, all that stuff that I'm bombarded with I see really clearly, do that and let the other things fall away, because that that's what's important.
Greg Voisen
I like what you're saying, and I think it's absolutely true. And I think that for my listeners, it's about all my relations. You know, when you look at the tapestry of life, and you look at how many people you impact as you walk through this life, from the time you were born to the time that you leave this physical plane on the earth, it's really the tapestry of every relationship that you've had, and those relationships having been left with you, leaving a meaningful impact with those people, while at the same time getting things done and doing it, it like, you know, on a team basis, heading towards some kind of common goal. And I think that's I recently saw profiled, the young man who started that movement. I m a, l, s, and when you look at the at the that challenge that was talked about with the where people were dumping water on their heads, if you remember that, remember everybody was doing that bucket challenge, and he raised millions and millions of dollars and got Congress to change. There was somebody who really, really exemplified, to me, having a cause to bring 1000s of people together to do something good and to get governmental change in the laws on Social Security to actually not have to wait five months for people to start getting benefits when they got als so I thought it was just an impactful way to look at it. I think when people are outside themselves, looking at something greater than themselves, trying to make a contribution to make something better, you always find something that good comes out of that, because people unite around that, they unite around that common good and that common cause. I mean, we could name hundreds of them, and I think that's what you're doing at Arbinger, with this work. You're literally trying to get people to unite together for the common good with inside the organization. Might be my simple way of putting it, but it is the way that you guys are coming across with the message, any last word for our listeners, Mitch, that you'd want to leave?
Mitch Warner
No, I think you're right. Greg, we all want to be part of something bigger. And the amazing thing is, you know, whether your organization is explicitly socially minded in your mission, or you're making screwdrivers. The reality is who we are is who we are together, and that experience at work can be remarkable. No matter what the work is. We can do that together in a way that matters, because who we are together matters and so, yeah, I think that's for me. The invitation is to continue to see the people around me as people, because that changes fundamentally my experience of life.
Greg Voisen
I think that's a key message to this, to the book, to the Arbinger Institute. And I want to let all my listeners know, go to Arbinger, a-r-b-i-n-g-e-r.com. There, you'll find more information about the books. You'll find more information about this book, the courses that they teach, the things that they do around leadership, the resources that are available, the events they're having. Again, you can also request a consultation from them at that website, but it's Arbinger, A, R, B, I N, G, E, r.com, there you can learn more about it. Mitch Werner, pleasure having you on. Thanks for being on inside personal growth and spending a few minutes with my listeners talking about your fourth edition of a book that's 24 years old coming back out again later. Year called Leadership and self deception. And I want to let my listeners know, don't make this we're going to put a link to Amazon if you want to wait for that. Fine. But actually, any of the books that Arbinger has, any of them that Mitch has written, I could put a high recommendation on. Thanks, Mitch.
Mitch Warner
Thank you, Greg, great to be with you.
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Inside Personal Growth with Greg Voisen · Podcast 1144: BreakProof with Jenn DrummondIn the latest episode of Inside Personal Growth, I had the incredible opportunity to sit down with Jenn Drummond, a world-record-holding mountaineer and the inspiring author of BreakProof: 7 Strategies to Build Resilience and Achieve Your Life Goals. Jenn’s story is a powerful testament to the human spirit’s ability to overcome adversity and reach for the stars, even when the odds seem insurmountable.
Jenn’s journey began with a bold and seemingly impossible goal: to conquer the Seven Second Summits, the second-highest peaks on each of the seven continents. What makes Jenn’s story even more remarkable is that she embarked on this challenge with no prior mountain climbing experience. Through grit, determination, and an unyielding belief in her own potential, Jenn not only achieved her goal but also became the first woman in the world to do so.
During our conversation, Jenn shared the seven strategies outlined in her book, BreakProof, which serve as a blueprint for anyone looking to build resilience and achieve their life goals. These strategies are not just about physical endurance but also about mental fortitude, emotional strength, and the power of a positive mindset.
Here are some key takeaways from our discussion:
Resilience in Adversity: Jenn’s journey is a powerful reminder that resilience is not about avoiding challenges but about facing them head-on. She emphasizes the importance of embracing adversity as an opportunity for growth and transformation.
Goal Setting and Balance: Jenn’s approach to goal setting is both practical and inspiring. She talks about the importance of setting meaningful objectives that align with your values and life purpose, while also maintaining a healthy balance between ambition and self-care.
Actionable Strategies for Success: In BreakProof, Jenn provides actionable strategies and exercises that can help anyone take the first steps toward their goals, build resilience, and handle life’s challenges with grace and determination.
Never Giving Up: One of the most powerful lessons Jenn shares is the importance of never giving up, no matter how tough the journey gets. She believes that persistence and a strong belief in oneself are key to overcoming even the most daunting obstacles.
Living Life to the Fullest: Jenn’s story is a celebration of living life to the fullest. She encourages everyone to step out of their comfort zones, pursue their passions, and make the most of every moment.
As we wrapped up our conversation, Jenn left us with a final piece of advice: “Believe in your dreams, set audacious goals, and don’t be afraid to fail. Every step you take, no matter how small, brings you closer to the life you’ve always dreamed of.”
Jenn Drummond’s BreakProof is more than just a book; it’s a call to action for anyone who has ever faced a challenge and wondered if they had the strength to overcome it. Her story is a beacon of hope and inspiration, showing us that with the right mindset and strategies, we can all become “BreakProof.”
Tune in to this inspiring episode of Inside Personal Growth to hear more about Jenn Drummond‘s incredible journey and the valuable lessons she’s learned along the way. Whether you’re looking to achieve a specific life goal or simply want to build more resilience in your everyday life, this conversation is sure to leave you motivated and ready to take on the world.
You may also refer to the transcripts below for the full transciption (not edited) of the interview.
Interview Transcipt -Not EditedEmailDownloadNew TabGreg Voisen
Well, welcome back to Inside Personal Growth. This is Greg Voisen, the host of Inside Personal Growth. And I have joining me from Park City, Utah, Jenn Drummond, and the book is called BreakProof. And the subtitle of the book is "7 Strategies to Build Resilience and Achieve your Life Goals. Good day to you, Jennn, how you doing?
Jennn Drummond
I'm fantastic. Thank you so much for having me here today.
Greg Voisen
Well, I'm finally great to have this happening. It took us a while to get this done, but I know because of your schedule, it's been tough and my schedule. So, thank you. Thank you. And for all my listeners, I'm gonna let them know just a tad bit about you, she says right in her bio, in the back of her book, she has seven children, seven continents and Seven Summits, so that kind of just sums it all up, right? She's a busy lady. She achieved financial success and founding a financial services company in Park City is there where she found her passion for the outdoors and hiking, and more than hiking, biking, skiing, mountain climbing, which really took off. But something happened in 2018 and in 2018 she was knocked off the tracks from a very horrific car accident, and we're going to be talking about some of that, and a brush, a brush with that. And I think when people come that close to their finitude, oftentimes many things change. It's like, okay, so what's important in life? And I think today, where there's so much uncertainty, Jennn that we're all kind of looking for some place to do it, but you know you really have to walk through uncertainty to get to the opportunity. And I know for you, that's all you've been about, is walking through uncertainty, because every time you climb a peak, you never know what's on the other side. You never know what's going to come up. So she confronted this, and with vigor and enthusiasm, she now speaks all over. She's got a podcast out there that you can see from her website, which is Jenn, J-E-N-N, Drummond, D-R-U-M-M-O-N-D.com and the podcast is called Finding your rhythm, or, well, I should say is really seek your Summit. But in there you'll find all kinds of great podcasts, and I'm going to highly recommend that you go listen to Jenn. Most of my listeners know Jenn that we did the precipice of life last year with Bo public Mark Parfitt, who did the highest Seven Summits as well. Great, great book. So you know, let's start off. Tell me a little bit about your own personal story. And obviously I alluded to a little bit of it. But, you know, look, the car accident was one thing, but to actually, you know, say, hey, I've got I got married, I got all these kids. I did a financial services company, I built businesses. I sold the business off. You know, you've constantly been somebody who's always curious. And I think climbers are curious because I interviewed 22 of them, including Eric Wyman. The guy from Colorado is blind, and he summited Everest blind, right? The first guy to ever do it. So what is this curiosity and drive inside of you, Jenn, that just kind of keeps you, like, pumped all the time to get more new adrenaline.
Jennn Drummond
Yeah, you know, I love the experience of life. I think at a young age, I was very much determined to have financial success, because I felt like at that time, the only thing my parents fought about was money. So for somehow, if I could solve that money problem, I wouldn't ever fight obviously, that's not the truth. But, you know, we all start somewhere, and that's where I started. The interesting thing about the car accident is it really gave way of right and wrong, and it gave way from like before, when I would take on task. I always wanted to be number one or at the top or the most extreme. And after that car accident, it was like, who cares if I'm bad at it? Why don't I just try it and see what it is? And I just gave myself so much more flexibility in understanding that life is as much about depth, that is about width.
Greg Voisen
How did you deal with the discomfort of all this? Though, you know a lot of people sitting out there today. Here I'm sitting in my chair talking to you. You're sitting in your chair, but to get up and climb you have to be okay with all kinds of discomfort. For, you know, I know all the situations when you go to Everest, and how Everybody pees and pose in a pot, and, you know, I've seen all of that. And the reality is, you know, you're a woman, there aren't that many women that have done what you've done. So how did you kind of deal with all that discomfort? Because there's plenty of it.
Jennn Drummond
Yeah, um, I think we get we train ourselves in discomfort. You need to have like resilience reps done, and the more resilience reps that are done, the more resilience you have to keep doing different things. And so for me, when I was young, I was in gymnastics, and when you're in gymnastics, loan Biles, yes, not quite, but, you know, maybe in another life, but you you make so many mistakes on so many tricks, but you only get better by continuing to do them. I was a lady that actually struggled with pregnancy. I would every single month have a negative test, have a negative test, have a negative test. Hired fertility doctors. Worked with them for a couple years, and then we came up with a chemical cocktail that worked, right? And it worked so well that I had all these embryos that turned into seven children. But the reality was, if I didn't try to pee on the stick. It would have never had a chance to be positive. So I was already had the worst case scenario. It was negative. The only thing that could get better is that it turned to a positive right at some point. And so when you have those experiences in your background of failure and overcoming, they build this muscle in you that's like, Okay, well, that's just right now. That doesn't mean forever. That doesn't mean not yet. And that changes how you approach a lot of things in life. Well,
Greg Voisen
your perseverance, I think your purpose in life changes, and it probably changed after the accident I'm surmising and you, you start looking, you know, you had this near death experience in 2018 now, you've climbed all the highest Seven Summits. You have seven children. You know, everything is seven, right? That's a great lucky number. But that book is called break proof. I mean, they for the listeners. You know, what is this concept of break proof, and how does it really differ from somebody just being determined and persistent? Yeah,
Jennn Drummond
you know, I think the big difference is, is that we are going to break. Sometimes we take a break proactively. Sometimes things get to a point where they break because we push them to the nth degree. But in that, break is the proof of what's working what's not working. What do you know now that you need to do to be able to get further along your climb, metaphorically or physically? And so when we take the break and we explore it, and we learn ourselves in it, and allow us to use that proof to become break proof in the future, like, hey, this didn't work. Here's a different way to do it. Let's try it that way.
Greg Voisen
Well, that's a great, good definition. And I'm sure you've said that many, many times to podcasters and people on TV shows and places you've been in in and I think for the average person out there, whether they're in a company trying to get through a new invention or create a new product, they've got to continually break it. So the point is, it's like, you know, when Steve Jobs invented the cell phone, it just didn't happen overnight. None of these inventions happen overnight, and none of these new scientific developments happen overnight. It's breaking, proving, breaking, proving and continuing to prove that you're on the right thing. Now, in your first chapter, you discussed casting your vision wider and deeper. And I'd like for you to share the story that really kind of illustrates that concept. Because, you know, people that have big visions, like they're going for it, they're like, in your case, I am going to climb the Seven Summits. You maybe didn't start off with, like, I'm going to go climb the Seven Summits. You started off maybe with, Hey, let's go do Denali, or let's go do this first, right? And then you gradually moved up, and you said, Wow, this is a big vision. Now it's and this happened with most of the mountain climbers I interviewed for the precipice of life. It was progressive talk about this, about that bigger, wider vision. Yeah,
Jennn Drummond
you know, so for me, I survived this horrific car crash, and now I'm reevaluating my life and making this master bucket list of things I want to do and climb a mountain was on that list. And in 2020 I was turning 40, so when I looked at my bucket list that I had been writing out for the last year, I'm like, You know what? I'm going to climb a mountain for my 40th birthday and have that be what's going to launch me into this nine. Decade of life. And so when I asked friends like, what mountain should I climb, the general consensus back to me was a mountain named ama de Blom. I never heard of it, but I'm like, Okay, it's in Nepal. It's the Paramount Pictures, logo, all these different things that sounds fun, but training for AMA dablom and covid happens in the beginning of 2020, so I'm not going to be climbing anywhere anytime soon, based on that situation. And I was homeschooling my kids, and one day, one of my kids was struggling with this homework, and so I did that parent pep talk, we do like we do hard things. You got this this little kid looks at me. He goes, Mom, if we do hard things. Why you climbing a mountain called I'm a dumb blonde instead of a in like Mount Everest? And it took me a minute. I'm like blonde. I'm a dumb honey the mountain. I'm a de Blob, not blonde, but, you know? And so for me, we finished his homework, we looked at the mountain. He went to bed, and I thought, you know, what? If he thinks Everest is the hardest thing in the whole world, I'm going to climb it, and I'm going to show him what our Everest is and that we're capable of climbing it at any point. So for me, it started with climbing a mountain. My son upped it to climbing Mount Everest. And then when I called a coach to train me for Mount Everest, we were talking. He's like, Hey, Jenn, I think you should buy this book about becoming an uphill athlete. And blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So I buy that book, and in the front was a lady who got a Guinness World Record, and I called my coach back. I'm like, I want to Guinness World Record. Like, that's amazing. My kids would think I'm cool. That's how they learned how to read. And so then a few weeks later, my coach called me back. He's like, Jenn, I know where you could get a Guinness World Record. You could be the first woman to climb the second highest peak on each of the seven continents. I'm like, Okay, I don't know anything about that, but tell me more. He's like, Well, listen, the second summits are harder than the first. And you'd be the first woman that did it, the second human ever. And he goes, if you think about it, seven mountains, seven continents, seven children. It's a jackpot. I'm like, it is a jackpot. I am. So you said.
Greg Voisen
So you said, give me k2 right?
Jennn Drummond
I said, Right, right. Oh, I had to use average to train for k2 but I like, listen to this. I had never slept in a tent before when I said yes to this thing, right? It was just one of those whole body yeses, and it felt like so, right, even though there's no reason why it felt right. It just did. And it started with climb a mountain. Then it went to go do Everest. Then it went to set this world record and show people what they're capable of. And for all of us that are on these pursuits, there's little nudges that, if we like the thing, open doors to bigger things and allow us to have a bigger impact.
Greg Voisen
Well, question for you, look, you're a mother of seven children along the way, yeah. And I always, you know, I listen a lot to Jordan Peterson, and he say, we make a contract with the future, but we have to make some sacrifices today. Yeah. And the contract with the future for you, seems to be that my contract was, I'm going to climb these mountains. So my question for you is, do you believe you had to make any sacrifices when it came to your family life or what you were doing, considering the amount of time it takes to prepare to do what you did, which, for my listeners, it's astronomical preparation to be able to do these things. What comment would you give either another man or a woman? Doesn't matter who's out there right now, going, Hey, I realize that I'm going to make some sacrifice along the way, but is it really a sacrifice, or is it really more about what it is that I how I want to live
Jennn Drummond
my life. I think there's an opportunity costs in everything we do. Is when you explore those opportunity costs, you can evaluate if they're worth the expense for yourself. I remember when I was going to train for Mount Everest, at first, I was like, There's no way I can climb Everest. And it wasn't because I was afraid of climbing the mountain. It was like, I don't know how I'm going to be away from my kids for three weeks. I've never been away from them for more than seven days. My biggest fear was being away from the children. And so it was interesting, because most Everest expeditions are six to eight weeks long, yeah, like, I can't do that, that that's an absolute no in my book. And so I with a doctor in Park City, and I told him, like, Hey, what are my options? And he's at a high altitude doctor, and he's like, hey, you know what, Jenn, there's this company called hypoxico, and they. Tents that mimic lack of oxygen environments. You can call them and see what your options are. So I called this company, I bought one of their tents, and I slept in it at night for months before I left. And so I was acclimatized to approximately 22,000 feet before I even got to Mount Everest. So when I got to Mount Everest, my team was on a rotation to get up to camp three, and then after that rotation, then you would wait till the weather's good and go to the top. My first rotation was going to camp three, and then I came down, and then I went up to the top with my team. So I cut out weeks of my expedition. And so there's excuses that show up in our lives, like mine was, I can't be away from my kids. But I think if you dig further and look at options, you're going to find solutions that are going to allow you to make the thing that you want to happen happen. Yeah, and
Greg Voisen
I and I remember, there's a picture of beau, the other gentleman who did the book, the precipice of life in one of those like literally sitting there in deprivation of oxygen. So I get it. So, you know, you you have you stated in chapter seven that understanding the goal was not the goal. And what I'd like you to do is elaborate on the goal. Is not the goal, right? And how does this philosophy impact, really, how you pursue any objective, right? Because I know from a Buddhist philosophy, and you dealt with plenty of people helping you climb in Nepal, the Sherpas would tell stories like, hey, this isn't the right time. And you go, what the hell it's not the right time. And you go, no, do I listen to you to say this is the right time to climb or not? And if you're attached to the outcome, right? This is the goal, not being the goal. The reality is sometimes you become extremely disappointed. You don't always make all those summits that you were going out to make. That's just the reality of climbing. You got to come back and try it again, right? Or in our case, one of Bo's friends died on the way up, and he had to make the decision, well, do I just keep going. Well, he did keep going, and he left his friend there, and the body was never actually recovered. They never took it off. But the point was is you got to make some hard decisions, and where that comes down to here is, where do you Where does this philosophy impact you? In the goal is not the goal,
Jennn Drummond
yeah. So for me, I have goals that drive me forward. They give me a star to aim towards. And so when options come up for me, I can say yes or no, because it's either going to bring me closer to the goal or farther away from the goal. But what was interesting as I chased this pursuit, I realized that it gave me a decision making framework to use, but I realized that it was awesome to stand on top of the mountain, but compared to the whole rest of the journey, that was just one piece of it. I went to go climb in Kenya like my goal was to stand on top of Mount Kenya, the second highest point. And when I was going to arrange the trip. I had learned of a charity, and that charity was giving period products to women so they could stay in school, because otherwise, when their period happened, they would miss a week of school every single month. And I had no idea that even existed, or that was a problem or whatever, but it really hit me passionately, and so when I went to go do that climb, I got to help fund 400 women to stay in school for four years with period products. And it was the climb that brought me to that destination, but it was truly the journey that gave it significance. And so now it changed how I did every climb going forward. Okay, I'm going to go to this place. How do I leave impact? How do I make a difference? It's more than just the climb for me. And so when we start chasing these goals, like whether you get to the top of that goal or not is less significant than how you show up and what you do in that environment, because who we are as people is way more important than anything we'll ever achieve. That's
Greg Voisen
a good point being made, especially the point about a greater cause. You know, I've been doing this show 17 years, and I have a nonprofit called compassionate communication that supports homeless and the Ukrainian refugee children who I buy bicycles for no so when they come out of Ukraine, we buy them bikes. And the point is, is people say, Well, you know, you've been doing the show, and you don't take a salary and don't do anything. I get the benefits from this, from interviewing people like you, and from the donations that come in. Actually support those things, it's the bigger cause. And I think when you have a bigger purpose in life, and that's where you know, I want you to talk about the challenge that the mountain brought, either literally or metaphorically, because everybody out there today has some kind of mountain that they've tried to climb and maybe haven't succeeded. What do you what do you mean by that when you talk about, you know, the challenging mountains that we face, that we're trying to climb, and what we learn from it, not, you know, the against Ness, but even if we don't make it, what we learned from it? Can you speak about what you've learned about mountains you've tried to climb that you just literally haven't conquered?
Jennn Drummond
So k2 right? A, k2 was the first mountain in my pursuit that I didn't get the first time when we were on the mountain, one of my teammates died in an avalanche, and two others got hurt, and so when we were on the mound, we had a choice, do we continue to climb, or do we come back down? And based on the situation of the team, it made more sense to come back down. There was a part of me that really wanted to continue, but I had values lined out before the climb, and one of my values that I live by is people over peaks. And so realize I'm like, You know what? This mountain is always going to be here. I can take care of like, do this mountain another time. I can't support these people in this hard moment, another time. So I chose to go back down. We buried a human, exited the country, did all the things I remember landing in LA and like, staying a couple days
Greg Voisen
because the roller coaster there you were. There's so much stuff
Jennn Drummond
that happened that time that I was like, I am not ready to go home. I need to metabolize this a little bit more before I go face my children and tell them that their mom's going back to a mountain where she just buried a teammate, right? And so I kind of worked through the story. I came home and I was training to go back to k2 I wasn't ecstatic about it by any means, because now you know, right? You've had the experience, you have that memory, you have to overcome it. And about three weeks before I left to climb k2 for the second time, I got a phone call about a person that had been training and didn't quite have the resources to make it happen, and was wondering if, like, I can help out. I'm like, Of course I can help out. And actually was really helpful for me to have that, because it gave me something to focus on outside of myself and the thing that happened the year before. And so on july 22 of 2022. I became the third American female to stand on top of k2 and then 30 minutes later, the first Pakistani female stood on top of our country's prized peak. And that's somebody that I had been introduced to because of my failure that first time. And so I love that story, and I share it, because sometimes we make decisions, and those decisions end up being way more significant than we ever understood because we kept doing the thing that we said we were going to do,
Greg Voisen
yeah, and I think that's really important, you know, I'm sure You're familiar with Allison Levine. She was somebody that I had interviewed for the other book. And you know, she, like you was, I mean, really, when you look at the two of you, you're probably some of the very few people that have really summited all these highest Seven Summits. In her case, even the polar explorer too, right? Because you both are speakers, you're probably out on the same speaking tour because of your great stories. So let me ask you this. You know, if you could, you mentioned one area where you had to pivot, which was k2 it was like, Hey, I have to let go of that. So what goes through your mind as a mountain climber when you've had to let go of this goal and pivot? You lost a person. You had to bury that person. You came back to LA. You then decided to go back again. What I'm understanding. And in the process, two other women summited at the same time, and you were responsible for one of them in the way in which you gave some of your time and resources to is that correct? Correct? Yeah, yeah. And so what did that feel like for you? Because literally, when you're helping other people, just like you said through your thing for periods with women so that they could stay in school. I think there's this whole sense of like, okay, I'm doing this, but I'm not doing it for Jenn. I'm doing it for something else. What is the greater purpose for Jenn for doing all this? This?
Jennn Drummond
Yeah, you know, I have five boys, and then I have twin daughters, and Nothing drives me more bananas, thinking that the gender changes their experience and different things, right? And so all of a sudden you're sitting there thinking like I'm their mom. How do I provide opportunity for them, and how do I make a difference? So that narrative changes. And so for me, when this opportunity came up to help this other woman, like it was great that I summited like, of course, I'm celebrating that. But more significant was knowing that this lady who is Muslim, who looks entirely different than me, that has a whole bunch of little girls like my daughter's age, across the globe, seeing somebody that looks like them in an environment that they've never had that opportunity to see before is so significant. Like, who cares that I climb the mountain? It's that now we have more visual representation of people and environments that maybe at first look don't belong in air quotes, and when we start that I don't belong curiosity, it opens the door to so many more opportunities, because it allows you to look and be like, Why do I think that person doesn't belong? Where else in my life? Am I operating that same way?
Greg Voisen
Yeah, and I think these are the unconscious biases. And we're we're all running around with unconscious biases. There's probably not a person watching this show, maybe not listening to the show that looks as you, looks at you, as you are an extremely attractive woman to say, Oh, she climbed Seven Summits of I, I can't believe that. I, you know, I just, whatever it is. I mean, let's face it, so, you know, rake proof this book, I'm going to just tell everybody, go get a copy. I'm covering my face. We're going to put a link to it on Amazon. Where would you say the principles? Now, I know in mountain climbing, there's all these analogies between preparation and the Sherpas and carrying the packs and climbing up the mountain, and leadership, and who's going to make the calls, and who's going to do what, and making sure that you're actually following a guide, because most people have guides. We were talking about Kenton cool prior to this. I don't know who your guide was, but the reality is is those are the kind of people that lead expeditions that have been to Everest many times and have done it, and that's in the ever, Everest case. So what would you tell people? Because you ran your own business, you built it, sold it off. We have a lot of people that have businesses out there. Where do these principles from break proof actually have an application, both in their courage, their curiosity and their willingness to climb the mountain?
Jennn Drummond
Yeah. I mean, that was what was interesting. I had built a business first, and then got into mountaineering. And when I was climbing these mountains, I'm like, this is the same principle we use a business like, this is the exact same. Like, I didn't realize how much of a parallel it was until I actually did both activities and like, one of the lessons in the book that I have to revisit myself on a regular basis is big mountains. Take big teens. You're not building an amazon.com by yourself, right? That's true. We're living Everest by yourself. You're not done so like, I always remember when I was building the business, and I was like, just getting exhausted and tired and whatever it was, my first thought was, where can I cut back? How do I get more time? Like, you know, like I was like, trying to lower the goal instead of, now I'm like, Okay, who can help me? Who can make this easier, not? How do I do it? Who do I add to this picture? Because the more who's we have, the easier, the how becomes. And it's that concept of the bigger the mountain, the bigger the team. It just gives me a different script to play when I run into a struggle.
Greg Voisen
It's that's a great analogy. And so the next question on that was, why is it that you believe people's egos are so big that they feel they have to do it themselves. And what advice would you give them to let go of what they always think is right so that they could do it from a team approach? Now this can apply in mountain climbing, because I've heard this happen in mountain climbing, where people get in arguments with others that are like, Hey, this is the way we do it. And you're like, No, I think I know how I want to do it. That isn't what you need to do. So it does happen up there on the mountain, doesn't it? Yeah, yeah. So the quick the question, I think you got the question right,
Jennn Drummond
Yeah.
Greg Voisen
The question doesn't go very eager. Because the ego frequently is like, Okay, if a Sherpa told me, No, it isn't the right time to go, and you're going, damn it, it looks great. I'm going to go ahead and do it. We need to do it. Why don't we do it? And you get all angry, that isn't really the thing to do, is it? No,
Jennn Drummond
and the reality is, is that we need to come home alive. Okay? So getting to the top, it's not the wind. It's coming down, you know. And it's also like when you think of you're building a business and you're launching a new product, and that product is costing a lot of money and maybe isn't working the way that you thought or hoped it would, you know, a lot of businesses would be in place today if they thought about how much runway they needed to go out and come all the way back home. Problem is, is they just keep going out, and then they don't have enough runway to make it back home, and the business blows up for a lot of us that are running companies. I know, in the beginning, I had a hard time letting people help me, because it exposed my weakness, right? It exposed where I wasn't doing a good job, and I was embarrassed of that, and I was trying to pretend that I had it all under control. And then when I finally realized you can't be all things to all things, and I allowed myself to just pick one lane and then hire out those other lanes to make a supportive team, that's when everything changed and grew faster, grew better, grew stronger, was more sturdy, and once you have one of those examples that work, it's a lot of lean into that story and repeat it in different ways. And
Greg Voisen
it is wonderful advice for all my business listeners. I hope they're listening and they get this, because the reality is, no matter if you're the mastermind behind the invention or whatever it is, but still takes a team to execute and implement and then get it to market. Doesn't matter what it is, and as you said, you used your example of Amazon. It doesn't matter what size company it is. It's in almost every size company. It's going to require a team to do it. So in kind of wrapping up here, what final piece of advice would you give someone who's out there listening or watching to this, watching this youtube today that wants to become break proof in either one area of their life or most areas of their lives? What are the what are the top tips that you would tell somebody that that really is like, hey, if this woman can do it, I can do it.
Jennn Drummond
Yeah. I think one of the things I really learned on all of my pursuits so far is that being kind to myself makes me stronger. Yeah, life is going to be hard, the obstacles going to be hard. The setbacks are hard. The climb is hard, and you being hard on yourself as well does not help the environment. So you need to figure out, like, how do I keep myself motivated and positive and encouraged, and how do I be my biggest cheerleader, even when everything isn't working out exactly as I wanted, because in that balance of hard and soft, do you are you able to move forward? If two things are hard, something's going to crumble and fall, and if it's you versus nature, it's going to
Greg Voisen
be you so, so self nurturing and care we it. That is an important thing. And I think many entrepreneurs, many mountain climbers, many extreme athletes, they forget that, and that's when they get injured, right? And so the reality is, you know, we, we, we've seen this with Simone Biles, and it's not just injured physically. Sometimes it's through depression and mentally, where we actually go into a funk, right? And there isn't anybody that doesn't get out of this without having some levels of deep funkiness, right? I'm just gonna call it like depression or anxiety or whatever they're dealing with. But you are definitely a resource for people. And again, the website is a resource. It's just Jenn Drummond, jenndrummond.com, you can go there. There is the book again. And now, Jenn, thank you for being on the show. I would like you to give me a 59 second little answer for a YouTube short that we're going to do that we'll cut it into this. And basically the question would be, what are the things that you learn from mountain climbing that apply to life, that you could tell people very quickly that they could apply, and if they do, they're bound to have more successes than failures.
Jennn Drummond
Okay, can I use something we kind of talked about already that? Yeah,
Greg Voisen
yeah. No, this is this just a little part of the video where we're just going to be like, 59 seconds, boom, you're on,
Jennn Drummond
Okay, perfect. You tell me when to go. Go. Okay, all right. So one thing that we could all benefit from is the concept. That big mountains take big teams. So whatever you're trying to achieve, the bigger the goal it is, the more people you need to help you make it happen. So if you can change the mindset from how to who you are, going to be able to go that much further in your pursuit. So anytime you feel like stopping or quitting or checking out, pause and ask you. Ask yourself, who can help you take this goal all the way to the top. I promise you, when you recruit more people into your vision, that summit is going to be much easier to achieve.
Greg Voisen
Thank you. Jenn Drummond, that was perfect. I think all my listeners will get that. I appreciate you being on Inside Personal Growth.
Jennn Drummond
Thank you.
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Inside Personal Growth with Greg Voisen · Podcast 1143: npnHub: Uniting Neuroplasticians with Dr. Justin KennedyJoin our returning guest, Dr. Justin James Kennedy as he reveals the secrets of neuroplasticity and success in this insightful roundtable discussion. Learn how to transform your mind and reach your full potential with the power of neuroscience coaching!
In the ever-evolving world of neuroscience, one platform is making waves by bringing together experts and learners alike to explore the transformative power of neuroplasticity. In our 1027th episode, we had the privilege of hosting Dr. Justin James Kennedy for his book Brain Reboot: A Change of Mind Will Change Your Brain. He is also a leading figure in applied neuroscience and a driving force behind the npnHub—a thriving community dedicated to advancing the discipline of neuroplasticity in coaching, education, and organizational contexts.
What is the npnHub?
The npnHub is more than just a platform; it’s a vibrant community where neuroplasticity practitioners, coaches, educators, and academics unite to share their knowledge, shine in their fields, and learn from one another. Founded with the vision of setting standards in the emerging field of applied neuroscience, the npnHub offers members the opportunity to become certified Neuroplasticians. This certification acknowledges their expertise and commitment to applying neuroscience in practical and impactful ways.
Why Join the npnHub?
Membership in the npnHub comes with a host of benefits designed to elevate your practice and connect you with like-minded professionals. As a member, you’ll gain access to exclusive offers from top-tier training and Continuing Professional Development (CPD) providers. You’ll also have the chance to participate in roundtable discussions and expert panels, where you can contribute to the evolving standards of our discipline.
But perhaps the most valuable aspect of the npnHub is the sense of community it fosters. Whether you’re a coach integrating neuroscience into your sessions, an educator applying these principles in the classroom, or a practitioner using neuroplasticity in an organizational setting, you’ll find your tribe here. The npnHub is a place where you can collaborate with others who share your passion and commitment to making a difference through applied neuroscience.
What to Expect as a Member:
As Dr. Kennedy emphasized during our conversation, the npnHub is committed to recognizing and celebrating expertise in applied neuroscience. Members have the opportunity to be awarded the prestigious Neuroplastician Status, which reflects their experience and training in the field. Additionally, the npnHub partners with vetted training providers to offer members education and CPD programs at reduced rates, ensuring that you can continue to grow and develop your skills without breaking the bank.
Conclusion:
The npnHub is more than just a membership platform; it’s a movement towards a more informed, connected, and empowered community of neuroscience practitioners. By joining, you become part of a collective effort to advance the field of neuroplasticity and apply its principles in ways that truly make a difference. As Dr. Justin James Kennedy shared on Inside Personal Growth, the npnHub is where experts and learners come together to share, shine, and learn—ultimately raising the standards and impact of our work in applied neuroscience.
You may also refer to the transcripts below for the full transciption (not edited) of the interview.
Interview Transcipt -Not EditedEmailDownloadNew TabGreg Voisen
Welcome back to Inside personal growth. This is Greg Voisen, the host of Inside Personal Growth and joining me, actually he's in Croatia right now, but he usually lives in and around near Zurich, Switzerland. Is Dr Justin Kennedy, and he's been on our show before, actually, and we'll make reference to the podcast, because he was speaking about his book on that. But Justin and I have stirred up a friendship here, and he is working with the neuroplasticity in he in is what is called neuroplasticians. And for all of you who are interested, I want to direct you to that website, because this morning, we're going to be talking about the, what we call his certificate, neuroplastician certificate, and how you can get involved in the program. It's npnhub.com and that'll get you there. And then you want to go to the neuroplastician certificate. You can actually look at membership. There's a free trial membership. Well, good day to you. Dr King, how are you doing?
Dr. Justin Kennedy
Greg, it's good to see you, my friend. Thank you for the last podcast. You really brain bumped up my sales of my book. So I'm interested to speak about next steps and what we've been doing at the Institute of organizational neuroscience and building the neuroplastician discipline, and how we growing so franitically, which has been exciting.
Greg Voisen
Well, you have trainings and you have so many people. You've done an online event that you recently just did with many of your members, which you said was just a crazy success. I apologize that it did not get to make that but again, the community keeps growing. Dr Kennedy keeps doing it. Tell us a little bit about this certification, or certification and some of your members that make up the organization. Because I think, for the people that are interested in this look, this word neuroplasticity, gets thrown around around a lot, and I think, you know, you and I talked about this, and nothing against it. But everybody from Joe Dispenza to, you know, who is talking about how our brains are wired and how they fire, but you're really working deeply in this.
Dr. Justin Kennedy
So explain a little bit about it. You know, with anything with a neuro on the front that sticks people who think Latin is a great way to sell your processes, you know, end up muddying the water. So, here is, here is the short story, Greg, so with the Institute of organizational neuroscience, we have a fellowship of a dozen, two dozen PhD candidates who are working on researching into applied neuroscience And what works to improve neuroplasticity, learning, neurodiversity, leadership, psychological safety and very many different topics. So one of the candidates said, you know, we're actually all in the game of improving our clients neuroplasticity and the lights went off. Someone said, Well, that makes us all neuroplasticians. Five months later, Greg, I kid you not, we've trademarked the word neuroplastician. We've launched the neuroplastician discipline. We have an advisory board of some of the most important people in the industry, like Paul Zach, Richard Boyatzis, Michael Platt, Marsha Reynolds, and the list just goes on. So, all the people from coaching and consulting and education who are taking the science of the brain and how we learn, ie neuroplasticity, seriously, we're seeing there's a huge opportunity to position the neuroplastician as a specialist coach who knows what neuroplasticity is and what it does, and how brains are influenced by behavior, and how behavior influences the brain. So we're having a great, lot of fun. We just had our first birthday, as I mentioned, and we've had. So many people like Amanda Blake and some of the other people that I mentioned, and Michael Stone and so many interesting people presented. So tell your audience that can go to npnhub.com and they can watch our first anniversary and all the fun we had. And as a result, the neuroplastician specialist coaching discipline is emerging, not as a training program. We're not trying to sell people the new training programs. We're offering it as an award that shows you have a certificate of expertise in the application of neuroscience. So we want you to come and show us what training you've had. We want you to come and tell us what expertise you have so that we can help you be awarded the neuroplastician certificate so that it shows you evidence of your ward, and we have different categories. And most importantly, out of all of this, Greg, we've just started a huge party where there's round tables and book clubs and brain bump coming soon, and panel interviews and experts sharing their stuff. And we've got different conversations going it is, it is so much fun. So the neuroplastician discipline from the institute fits in this category. But as you can see, there's a lot more fun going on for members in this community. So we're trying to benchmark or build a circle around what is good science so that people who are speaking about neuroscience are taking it seriously, and they are referring to neuroplasticity, not mirror this and mirror that, but with the other walls of serious science, we do have a lot of fun, and we do have a great community who are collaborating and learning and sharing in a peer environment. We've got no professors or princesses. We're all on the same level having fun with the science.
Greg Voisen
Well, you know, you originally were introduced to me by Elizabeth Gould, and I noticed a video there. Elizabeth wrote a book called feeling forward, and that's how you and I got together, and she was on the show quite a while ago. But you know, I think what the listeners would probably want to know is, okay, yeah, they can go to this website. You also have a YouTube channel that I noticed is there that people can go to. So if they want to listen to some of the interviews and things, they can go to YouTube. But what can they expect? In other words, if they're gonna put money down for a membership, what is obviously, it's a community. It's a community of support. How often do you guys meet? What do you do? What can people expect from their membership?
Dr. Justin Kennedy
So the first thing is, this is not a very good sales model. We are a self-funded, not for profit initiative, which is making a place where people who are serious about learning the science of neuroplasticity, but they want to do it in a in a safe place. So we made the first month pre, you can come and check it out. You can come and join the conversations. Every day. We're having a round table or a book club, or we're having panel interviews with Richard boyattis or Amanda Blake or, you know, there's so many serious scientists that are taking the work around being a neuroplastician, seriously, but you don't need to commit to becoming a neuroplastician specialized coach. You can just come hang out and join the conversation. It's a place for lonely brains. Greg, okay. Paul, okay. Want to know more about the science, but don't really know where to go. People
Greg Voisen
now, if they want to go deeper. What if they want to go deeper? You're offering the certification. So there is a way for them to say, Okay, I want to be certified by NPN. Explain a little bit about the certification, because there could be some listeners right now that are saying, hey, this would be a great thing for me to delve into real deeply, because I could, I can utilize this in my business, right? So what's the business model for it?
Dr. Justin Kennedy
My coach is so important that's important to distinguish the language. This is not a certification.
Greg Voisen
Everybody listening. What is this? It's not a certification.
Dr. Justin Kennedy
It is a certificate awarded based on two things, one, your current expertise, and two, your previous training. So we want you to step into the ring as someone who already knows what they know. We do have a lot of training. Products from external institutes and training providers available that we often share that information, but it's not what we do. We're a self funded, not for profit project there. Okay, there's an institute of organizational neuroscience that is governing the neuroplastician discipline by the names that I mentioned, but the NPN hub, npnhub.com is just the place to hang out, to meet fun people, to learn the science and not to get tricked by spin doctors or snail or snake oil merchants, okay to trick people into neuroscience. So it's a very clean environment, Greg, but it's also a very safe place and also a very fun place. So we're trying to do something different, Greg. We're trying to say, Okay, those of you love Latin, great, sit over here. Those of you who love the science, come join the party, because we want to engage with you. And it's working really well, because there's a hunger for people to know what the science is really saying and what can be done to apply practical tools. So this is not a place for academics, Greg.
Greg Voisen
This is a place for, well, that, that is the best part.
Dr. Justin Kennedy
This is a place for pracademics, non academics. So I
Greg Voisen
like that. And you know, I think that. I think look for my listeners right now, if you go to npnhub.com you're going to see, I'm looking at right now four videos that are posted. One is Elizabeth Gould in the left corner, Round Table lying and your brain. Another one is a gentleman. It doesn't say what his name is, but it says, Round Table brain glue, how selling becomes much easier by making
Dr. Justin Kennedy
Jake bond. His name is James Bond. But could you know? Okay, but the point
Greg Voisen
is, like you said, you're having fun with how this works and how it can apply. In his case, he's talking about selling becomes much easier when your ideas are sticky. And I think that's a really important factor, that you separate yourself, as you said, from the people that like Latin and are really into this you're talking about how the everyday person might be applying this and actually making use of it. And so if you would, that's an hour and one minute long talk that James Bond gave, right? And it is something that my listeners, if they join as membership for very nominal price. Here, they're going to be able to get access to this right? And you're putting these in here. How frequently are you actually doing these sessions with these NPN members?
Dr. Justin Kennedy
So, Greg, it's pretty much daily. There's, there's an event happening. So you're really spoiled for choice. That the price is free for the first month. It's a not for profit initiative that's self funded. After that, there is a $29 membership fee. If you come from a, you know, a struggling economy, we're happy to support you. So this really is a community model. We're having great conversations. It is really a place to belong. If you're interested in the science, Greg, when we're having fun with that, we you'll watch some of the the recordings when you get out. I know you're joining us as we speak, so it'll be great to have you speaking around brain bump soon. And we really want to make us an easy place to come and hang out. And we want to make it a serious place where you can become a certified neuroplastician specialist coach. So the word neuroplastician is now trademarked as a specific expert in applying neuroplasticity to do two things. One is to change behavior, and two is to sustain habits so that the brain becomes automated, like we drive a car or a bicycle, we get those habits to stick, and there's a lot of practitioners, as a lot of educators and institutes that are supporting us. So we're onto something, Greg, and being on your show is really helping us spread the word about what it means to be a neuroplastician. Well,
Greg Voisen
when you did this, this first anniversary celebration week, I'm looking at this. You had Sue Stevenson speak about the social neuroscience of community. You had another Dr Richard. How do you pronounce his name?
Dr. Justin Kennedy
He's a very leading scientist around the. Mean and coaching. So Richard Boyatzis is
Greg Voisen
very well, and Amanda Blake and Amanda Blake, who mentioned several times. So these are three videos that the point would be, is that these individuals and doctors were presenters at this event this first week, and you had quite a few during this, what you call one year anniversary celebration that you had. And I'm going to just encourage my listeners, you know, you can watch the replays, and you can do that for free. Go watch those replays, and then sign up for your free trial, and then sign up for your membership for this. Also, we're going to put a link to Justin's interview with me and his book. He's got a book that you can do reboot, is what it's called, and reboot
Dr. Justin Kennedy
by rates. I mean, it's five years old now, so it'll be nice to actually edit some of the science, because so much of this is happening so quickly. Greg, having experts around us is great, but we're not a community for professors or princesses. This is a place where we're all scrumming down together and learning deep in the weeds. We're not in libraries. We're not in laboratories. We are in the real world as practitioners, as coaches, who are taking the science seriously, but having fun while doing it. I don't think it has to be separate.
Greg Voisen
Well, the other thing I wanted to say is it looks like it's available on your iPhone or Android device. So is there an app as well that people can go up and get or is this? Is this just something that's coming off of your
Dr. Justin Kennedy
runs up an app. It runs off an app. It's really seamless. Just go to npnhub.com and just follow the follow the Follow the yellow brick road, and it really okay, see to get it done.
Greg Voisen
Okay, so you're united. You're uniting neuroplasticians, and that's what this is all about. And you're uniting people who have interest in this. And you're saying, hey, look, a certificate will be provided to you based on your knowledge and expertise. So tell our listeners as a if you would, kind of the broad range of people that might be applying coaches, or people that are out there in the field that are listening today, that are working with people every day, helping them become better at what they do by improving their way their brain fires and is wired right? And so suggest to us, if you would, some of the people that would be really, really a good fit to become part of your community.
Dr. Justin Kennedy
So the best fit are the people who are interested in taking the science seriously and have a very big funny bone, because we are all about enjoying each other. We've got a lot of interest in the science of humor, and Karen and Sue are interested in and, you know, leading that front. So maybe it's someone that's a consultant in neurodiversity. Maybe it's someone working in psychological safety or leadership, or maybe they're a coach who was trained in the neuroscience of coaching in some Institute. I mean, it doesn't really matter, Greg, we don't mind if you've just heard the word neuroplasticity for the first time today, we don't really mind if you're a professor who's been tenured around understanding neuroplasticity for the last many decades. We're interested in having a conversation, so our events are intentionally dialog based with experts, with each other, with authors, with practitioners. So the main community tends to gravitate around expert consultants and educators and coaches who want to dig into the brain, not literally. Of course, we're not, I'm in a laboratory environment. We're interested in seeing what are the brain hacks at work. Michael Platt from the University of Pennsylvania, at the Wharton Business School and the medical school is offering a program on brain hacks. So Michael work is really respected, so globally, as the you know, one of the best programs in neuroscience. So when we got people like Michael Platt and Paul Zak and Richard biyatis and I can keep name dropping, pretty much everybody who's interested in the application of tools that improve neuroplasticity via building. Heavier change and building new habits. And that's what we're doing. Oh yes, let me not forget, we're also launching a another app called neurostarter.com Okay, so that is going to be, it's going to be a free tool to neuroplasticians. So if you become a neuroplastician, you get access to this very cool new tool, which is called neurostarter.com and this is a tool to help you match neurotransmission with emotion and behavior change, so that you understand the mechanics of the mind, so that you can train the brain to change the mind, to heal the heart, whenever you want to start. So that's going to be lots of fun. We're launching that next month. So please go to neurostarter.com Please go to npnhub.com and join the revolution. Well,
Greg Voisen
I I think that, look, I'm just going to read a couple of comments the people that have joined, because I think it's always important people hear what others are saying, right? So here's one gentleman, Tom Thomas, a Duda, chief education officer and PhD candidate. He said, I had all the money and success, yet was seeking something deeper. Now I have found a way to expand my education by being a master neuropathician. I think that's great. And then you've got people like Dr Ken Parnell. He's a professor and head of education and neuroscience at CQ University. He says, I endorse the NPN hub, where the cutting edge approach to leveraging neuroscience research to optimize personal and organizational performance. So look, if somebody is listening today, and they are looking for a place to expand their consciousness, to expand their ability to get out there and use this tool with their clients, with their coaching clients, with their corporate clients. This is a place to to come and join and learn and then apply what you will learn on a on a real, practical basis. Dr Kennedy has created that. So go get their free trial. Sign up again. We'll put a link to this website. It's npnhub.com and what's the new one? The starter one. You said,
Dr. Justin Kennedy
neurostarter.com it's really important that you tell the listeners Greg that this is not a place for neuroscientists. What is this place? Not everybody. It's not, it's a lot. A lot of coaches say, Hey, I've learned about the brain, but I'm not a neuroscientist. And I say, Well, I'm not a plumber. How does that help anybody? And I say to them, but are you able to help your clients learn new skills, build that neuroplasticity, change their habits, and they say, Yes, I can. And they say, great, you're a neuroplastician. Let's start the revolution together. And being a neuroplastician is a serious discipline within the institute of organizational neuroscience, but Greg, we know that the brain gets a huge dopamine kick if it's fun. We know that the levels of enjoyment sustain so much higher if there's a social environment where you feel like you can belong where you feel like you want to enjoy and you feel like there's some cool kids that are also part of the community. So now that you've joined Greg, you're part of the team. Thanks so much
Greg Voisen
anyway. So for everybody out there who wants to get a dose of dopamine and oxytocin, and you want to get high, and you want to apply this to everybody in your direct to social environment. It's a place to go. So Dr Justin Kennedy, you basically have created a great thing here. I appreciate you being on inside personal growth, because the reality is, neuroplasticity is an inside job, and everybody knows that. And how you talk to yourself, how you speak to yourself, your subconscious mind, what's going on inside of there, and this is one way to make a connection and learn from some of the best. So as it says, Is it at his website, and we'll leave it at that is uniting with experts and learners in applied neuroscience, share shine and learn in a one of a kind, inclusive hub for professional exchange, intelligent dialog and continuous learning and applied neuroscience. It couldn't be said any better than that doctor.
Dr. Justin Kennedy
You said it better, Greg, you said it much better. You said, Look, you said neuroplasticity is an inside job. And if that's true, the neuroplasticians are the gangsters who get to hack the brain.
Greg Voisen
We get to do it all right? It's been a pleasure having you on Inside Personal Growth and talking to my audience again.
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Inside Personal Growth with Greg Voisen · Podcast 1142: The Heart of Science Engineering Fine Print with Jayshree SethIn this episode, joining us is Jayshree Seth, a leading STEM advocate and Chief Science Advocate at 3M, as she shares her insights on the science of innovation and thought leadership. You’ll learn from one of the top science advocates in the industry about how to lead with purpose and drive meaningful change through science.
In the ever-evolving world of science and technology, thought leadership plays a critical role in shaping the future. One of the most notable figures in this space is Jayshree Seth, Chief Science Advocate at 3M and the author of The Heart of Science: Engineering Fine Print. This book, published by the Society of Women Engineers, dives deep into the intricacies of science, engineering, and the importance of diversity in STEM fields. But beyond the book, Jayshree’s work extends into thought leadership, innovation, and advocacy, making her a unique voice in today’s scientific community.
A Glimpse into The Heart of Science: Engineering Fine Print
The Heart of Science: Engineering Fine Print is more than just a book; it is a manifesto for how science and engineering can be harnessed to make meaningful impacts in society. Jayshree Seth’s experience as a Corporate Scientist at 3M, where she holds 80 patents, provides her with a unique vantage point. Her journey from earning a Ph.D. in Chemical Engineering to becoming the first Chief Science Advocate at 3M is a testament to her expertise and dedication to innovation.
This book offers insights into how engineering and science are not just about solving problems, but about leaving imprints that shape our world. Jayshree emphasizes the importance of diversity in STEM, not just as a moral imperative, but as a critical driver for innovation. Also, before this book was published, the first The Heart of Science book, entitled The Heart of Science: Engineering Footprints, Fingerprints, & Imprints, was created in 2020.
Thought Leadership: A Necessity in Today’s World
Jayshree’s recent work on thought leadership provides a roadmap for aspiring leaders in any industry. Her insights are timely, especially given the increasing importance of thought leadership in driving change and innovation. In a recent article for Authority Magazine, Jayshree shared “5 Things You Should Do To Become a Thought Leader In Your Industry,” emphasizing the need for authenticity, continuous learning, and the courage to challenge the status quo.
Jayshree’s thought leadership is not just theoretical. It’s grounded in her collaborations with top scholars like Prof. Amy Edmondson and Prof. Rita McGrath, where they explore topics such as leadership communication and innovation management. Her frameworks, like “Acing Communications: Do This, Not THAT!” and “Leak-proof Your Leadership,” offer practical advice for leaders looking to make a lasting impact.
The Role of Thought Leadership in STEM
In her role as Chief Science Advocate, Jayshree Seth has been a vocal proponent of increasing diversity and belonging in STEM fields. Her recent paper in Nature on “Purpose reflection benefits minoritized students’ motivation and well-being in STEM” highlights how reflective practices can significantly impact the motivation of underrepresented groups in STEM. This research is a powerful example of how thought leadership can be used to address some of the most pressing challenges in the field.
Jayshree’s work is not just about promoting diversity for diversity’s sake. She argues that diversity in thought and experience is critical for innovation. In her TEDx Talk, “Why I Reframed My ‘Why’ – The Context of Purpose,” she discusses how finding and reframing one’s purpose can lead to greater innovation and fulfillment in science and engineering.
Conclusion: A Call to Action
Jayshree Seth’s work is a powerful reminder of the importance of thought leadership in driving innovation and change. Whether through her books, articles, podcasts, or talks, Jayshree continues to inspire and challenge the next generation of leaders in STEM. The Heart of Science: Engineering Fine Print is not just a book; it’s a call to action for all of us to use science and engineering to make a difference in the world.
You may also refer to the transcripts below for the full transciption (not edited) of the interview.
Interview Transcipt -Not EditedEmailDownloadNew TabGreg Voisen
Welcome back to Inside Personal Growth. This is Greg Voisen, the host of Inside Personal Growth, and joining me on the other side, actually, from the St Paul, Minnesota area, and also an employee with 3m is Jayshree Seth, and we're going to be speaking about her book and her movement and cause, but the book is called The Heart of Science Fine Print. She's got two books out, but we will be showing that book on our website. Good day to you. How are you doing?
Jayshree Seth
Good, good. How are you, Greg, thanks for having me.
Greg Voisen
I'm fine today, and it's a lovely day, and I hope for you that we can help you get your message out about what it is that you're doing. I'm going to let my listeners, Jay Sheree know a little bit about you. She's a corporate scientist at 3m she she leads applied technology development for industrial adhesives and tapes division. She joined 3m in 1993 after an MS and a PhD in Chemical Engineering from Clarkson University New York. And she currently holds 72 patents for a variety of innovations with several additional pending patents. Shree is a distinguished alumni award recipient from her alma mater, and that's R-E-C in India, and N-I-I-T, is it Tricy? Tracy?
Jayshree Seth
Yeah, it's regional engineering college, so rec, but it has a new name now, because I graduated eons ago.
Greg Voisen
Yeah. Well, we all did in 2018 using her scientific knowledge and tech, technical expertise and professional experience to advance science and communicate the importance of the benefits in science and everyday life. She's also a member of Carlton society, which is 3m Science and Engineering Hall of Fame. She is the fourth woman and the first female engineer to be inducted into that she's also the first ever winner of the gold Stevie Award in the new female leaders, a new female thought leaders of the Year category in the 18th annual Stevie awards for women in business, 2021 and we're going to be talking about her work with the Society for women engineer, the STEM program, and all of the work that she's been doing. She serves on the board of science and Museum of Minnesota, and on the Inner Engineering Advisory Council for Clarkson University, and she lives in Saint Paul area with her two children and her husband also a three Emmer. Okay, well, you guys must have a code for that three Ember thing. Last time I was on it, was showing her my sticky notes. Everybody can relate to sticky notes. And she was telling me about the 93-year-old man who is still alive, who actually created the glue for that. What was his name?
Jayshree Seth
Again, he created the actual product. The glue was another gentleman spent silver. But the person who created this application is art fry.
Greg Voisen
Art fry, so innovator, yes, yeah, look up art fry. That would be a great story. I should have him on this podcast, with your help that will happen. So look, we're here to share a little about your own personal journey and the impact that your family and surrounding had, coming from India, coming from, as you said, a family of privilege, but also a family that was really focused on education. Do you mind setting the stage for the podcast by letting our listeners know just a tad bit about that, please. Yeah. So
Jayshree Seth
to me, having an environment of academic achievement and having an environment of focus on education, that is a privilege. So I grew up on the campus of an engineering institution. My dad was a university professor. He was an engineer with a PhD himself. We lived on the campus housing, so on the campus, in the campus housing, so surrounded by STEM professionals, you know, science, technology, engineering and math, and it was pretty much expected of us, all kids on the campus, you know that you're going to study hard, you're going to prepare well, and you're going to get admission to the hometown college. So this is the kind of orientation we we grew up in. It certainly shaped my educational journey. It influenced my path. And despite thinking. I was not the typical science and engineering type, but it was like, literally in the water. We used to joke that we're going to all have to study and get into the hometown institution, because what a great opportunity with an institution right there where we're growing up. And it also shaped my world views. Yeah, you know, these days I often think about how I grew up and the role it played. So Greg, it was a block of six homes right at any given time, we had more than five religions represented, and in this block of six, you could hear six different languages on any given day, including English that was spoken by the American family of a visiting professor. You could smell regional cuisines from all over India. We had all the regions represented. All of us were from different states. There was a kid with physical disability. There was one who was neuro divergent. There were two kids who had been adopted, you know, so religion and language or customs never got in the way we all played together. We spoke that that that universal language that all kids who want to play together develop and understand. So these differences also really enrich to my childhood, and honestly, I thought that's how the world was. So that was, again, another perk of growing up in faculty housing on a college campus. So I like to say that I have a strong foundation highly educated family growing up at a time when a woman was a leader of our country and pretty much every neighboring country, and that is the privilege I have experienced. Not many people can say all these things that I just said, No, I am filled with gratitude for growing up in that family in that time and place, and I recognize that privilege, and that's why I also am really emboldened with the responsibility that it
Greg Voisen
brings. Well, it's a great story, and I can't wait for the US to have a woman leader as our president. So I know that I'm might be ticking off some other people, but too bad it's my podcast. I think we're we're we need some feminine energy in the White House. Would be good to have some feminine energy there. Now look, you were asked to be the first ever Chief Science advocate at 3m What does the role entail, and why did you agree to take on that position?
Jayshree Seth
That's a great question. So we care about science at 3m That's what fuels our innovation and products like the post it notes that you really love and our purpose is to unlock the power of people ideas and science and reimagine what is possible. But we also know that there can be a negative consequence if people don't have a positive perception of science, and that is why I was called upon to be the company's first ever Chief Science advocate. That's a role that doesn't exist anywhere you can Google it, but we wanted to stand up for science. And in 2018 my role was announced, and when they asked me, I was like, I don't know if I can do this. You know, I never thought of myself as a science and engineering type. I was always interested in the human context. I was always interested in the pro social goals, and I couldn't really understand as a child how that linked up with STEM feels, because nobody talked about that. I had my share of struggles through graduate school, I became a scientist and an engineer only because my family said so. But I was glad that I ended up taking this role because I found out that 3m had actually commissioned research to understand the public perception of science. And what did we find? Four out of 10 surveyed globally. This was 14 countries in all 1000 respondents per country, and four out of 10 said, If science didn't exist, their lives would be no different. 32% of the people call themselves science skeptics, and in this population, six out of 10 said, If science didn't exist, their lives would be no different. And guess what? Greg, they were taking the survey on their laptops and mobile phones, so we can see what the problem
Greg Voisen
is. They don't understand.
Jayshree Seth
Yes, science is invisible. It is under appreciated. It is taken for granted. People don't understand that the gadgets and devices they love and they can't live without. These are applications of science and decades of scientific research. So in my role, I got to introduce the results of our survey to the world so we could foster a global conversation. And in the months leading up to it, I had dug deep into the survey data, into other studies that had been done, into social science research on public perception of science, because I was like, I don't get this. How can they think this way? You know. But you have to understand what perception is, how it develops, and how we, all human beings react with our sentimentality, you know, so it helped me really get a deeper understanding the issues and shape what I call the ABCs of my advocacy strategy. So to answer your question, quite literally, what I do is a is the advocacy, raising awareness and appreciation and acknowledgement of science so we can. Move people from the apathy they feel. B is about breaking down biases, boundaries, barriers, beliefs, you know, things like, Oh, I'm not a genius. I can't do science, or I'm a girl. Science is not for me. And these are issues we see the portrayal of science in the media, you know, the image of nerds and loners and mavericks and and evil and all of that isn't going to inspire little girls or little boys for that matter. And finally, see, I say, is for communication, communication, communication, but with a focus on the context, context that people can see and relate to. Because I know from my own journey how important context was to me, and I found out so it was too many others. Context helps to power our purpose. It helps us to understand what is our why. So I write about that a lot, you know. So we have done podcasts to discuss the results. We have created scientists as storyteller guide to help scientists tell compelling stories. We have created a docu series called not the science type to inspire young women. We have created a docu series called skilled to inspire people to join skilled trades, because skilled jobs are STEM jobs. We have a goal of supporting 5 million stem and skilled trade learning experiences for underrepresented students by 2025 we are conducting a lot of workshops. We have also created a science at home series. So a lot to do, a lot to do on this platform that I write a lot, and
Greg Voisen
I think the fact that you've broken it down in that little ABC acronym is really good. You do that a lot in your writing, and you've done that also in your two books. And I think the important thing is, for people out there listening, there's no less money being put into science and technology, as if anything, it's quadrupled the amount of money that now is being vested because we know that this is going to be the advancement of our world. It's going to actually, hopefully be the savior of many of the things that are going on in this world today. Now you have two books out that are available on Amazon, the heart of science, engineering, footprints and fingerprints and imprints, as well as engineering fine print. So you have these two books, and they're right behind you by your head. Over there, people can see, yes, yeah, left corner, we'll put a link to both of those on our blog entry. So what is motivated you to write? In particular, I was going to focus more on engineering fine print to actually write that book, and why? Well,
Jayshree Seth
2020. Was a tough year, right? You mentioned to your listeners that I'm in Saint Paul, Minnesota, and we all remember what happened right in our backyard over Memorial Day weekend. It's the the killing of George Floyd, and it was actually hard. Who am I? What do I stand for? What is my role in this? I'm not black or white, but as I mentioned, I'm a highly privileged, highly educated South Asian immigrant. So I dug deep, and one of the actions I took was to take all the essays that I write into a book, and that was published by the Society of Women Engineers, and that was the first book you mentioned, and All proceeds go to scholarship for underrepresented women in STEM Believe it or not, I get invited to give the Silas ethics lecture at Georgia Tech. And out of all the schools that the scholar could be going, guess where the first scholar funded from the sale proceeds of my book was going, it's Georgia Tech. So I actually got to meet her very emotional experience. And I was like, I can't stop here. So to answer your question, that's why I decided to do the second book. So the first book is a collection of essays on several big picture topics, you know, stem advocacy, convergence of STEM and humanities, leading from your own rung of the ladder, developing a growth context. And what is really at the heart of my second book, engineering fine print, is really an attempt to go deeper into the topic of transitions to thrive and survive amidst change. Because remember what was happening at that time. It was the pandemic, and we were all coming out of that reflections that can provide perspective and then insights into actions we can take. So that's what fine print is. And fine now that you said that you like my acronym, fine is for feelings, identities, needs and experiences. That is what allows us to work through transitions, go into deep reflections and take the actions we can take. And on the topic of action, please buy the books, because, you know, it is very difficult to get the word out. It's for a good cause. And I'm happy to inform the people who will join this cause that enough people have bought the books that we now have four students, four young women, whose stem journey is being supported through the sales proceeds. Of the two books. So thank you very much.
Greg Voisen
Well, thank you. And for all the listeners who want to support this, you can go up to Amazon and buy the book, and 100% of the proceeds will go to these scholarships. Not even the cost of printing is being taken out of this. So look, your scholarships impact the lives of underrepresented minorities in STEM what are some of the biggest challenges that young women in particular are facing in pursuing STEM careers, and how can, in your estimation, this is from your, you know, Jay Sherry's standpoint, can these be addressed?
Jayshree Seth
Well, we've thought about this a lot, and I think it comes down to two things, one is numerical under representation, and two is bias, Flash stereotypes, right? So there are number of barriers, because STEM fields were largely laid out by men, so no surprise, they can seem very male oriented. And it starts from just how we talk about it, how we teach it, how we train, how we track or even typify with a very masculine backdrop. I once heard that it can be like navigating a right handed world while being left handed. So that's the one aspect of it. But there are other challenges. There can be discrimination, there can be more harassment. There can be disparity in pay, there can be social isolation, there can be onlyness, and also women experience greater performance pressure because they are so few, so they're highly visible. So basically, like I said, numerical under representation and negative stereotypes, these can stack the system against women, and then it impacts them disproportionately throughout their careers. So to answer your questions, I want to share some examples of things that you can do that can really address this issue. So if you think about numerical under representation, a great example is women are highly underrepresented when it comes to innovation and it comes to patent filings. So one of the things that can be done is, okay, why is it that women are not filing as many patents? What's stopping them? How can we make this situation better? How can we encourage and support more filing? So actually, there is a diversity and innovation toolkit that was developed by the Intellectual Property Association and three I met a strong role to play, but it is just a free resource, and companies can play a critical role in leading this effort by instituting whatever that toolkit says for you to do to help foster and identify and patent innovations you know, by women. So second example is about sharing stereotypes, about addressing stereotypes. So at 3am we do this survey that I talked about, and one of the results that we got was that 87% said we need to do more to encourage women and girls in science. So we created a docu series that just spotlights women scientists. So the idea here is to share that stereotype, you know, and it's called not the science type, and you can probably put the link in your show notes. It's free to view on YouTube. And with this Docu series, we wanted to communicate that you don't have to be a specific gender or race or ethnicity or nationality to be the science type, and that your paths can be diverse, just as we diverse as we all are, and science will be better off for that diversity. Science needs you, and science needs you to be And another example is to focus in activities that support women, like Society of Women Engineers. 3m also supports project scientists. We support girls start. These are women led organization that deliver high quality stem experiences to girls. So there's a lot of things in here, but I'll give you a simple mental model. There is no denying our world requires innovation. Innovation needs science. Science demands diversity. Diversity warrants equity.
Greg Voisen
Well, you've really been able to succinctly let our listeners understand what the role of science has played, and I couldn't agree with you more, but I just think there hasn't been, if you look at the media, very much media exposure to expose this to the world. I think there are some biases there, right? I'll cite an example just locally here. I actually do some work with the La Jolla Institute of immunology. So on the second floor of that building are all these scientists, and many of them women, working in lab coats, but they are now giving them grants to move forward with an inventions, new things, new innovative areas. And I'm really at all that the numbers of grants get. Seven to women was equal to the number given to men at the Institute of immunology, which, by the way, gets about $60 million from the NIH National Institute of Health. So and another 20 million comes from donations. But the point was is, I've noticed over the years, as I've been going to the meetings, that I'm seeing more and more women getting these actual grants to pursue their idea, to pursue their concept, and so on. So I think again, it never, hardly ever hits the press. But the reality is, it has to be there. So you've established a thought leadership platform, and in a recent article you published on medium for authority magazine, you mentioned five key actions to becoming a thought leader. Can you elaborate on these and how they have shaped your journey and your advocacy work?
Jayshree Seth
Yeah, I'm glad you brought that up. I really believe thought leadership is going to be more critical than ever before, a critical component of leadership, like it always was, and then somewhere along the way, it wasn't. And thought leadership is so important, because if you can't lead with your thoughts, can you really need action, you know. So the way I see it is the steps are fairly straightforward and intuitive in many regards. It's about studying and understanding your area or industry landscape, and you do that to bolster credibility beyond what you've already built, let's say, in your functional role in the area. So you you need understanding that involves more than just surface level knowledge. You know, it's so it requires scanning and scoping out the landscape and studying the industry trends, challenges, opportunities, just like I had to do when I became Chief Science advocate. I've always been a scientist, but I've always been a science advocate, not really. So I need to understand, well, how do you advocate? What does advocacy mean? What does it mean? What is public perception? Why the public has a perception, etc, etc. So the next step would be to develop and provide a unique perspective from your vantage point, which is grounded in authenticity. You know, it is very, very important that your perspective is authentic. It is anchored in your personal experience or your expertise, but it has to be innovative enough to challenge some existing paradigms, if that is warranted. So now you've done that, and that next is, Hey, you gotta amplify your voice to increase your visibility as you get more and more confidence in your insights. Because having insight is half the battle. The other half is ensuring that these insights reach the right audience. So amplification is key. So now you have done all of that, it is important to reach out and build new relationships, and you have to reinforce your existing ones so that you can foster a community that creates a supportive network, and it opens up new opportunities. So if you and I are connected, Greg, now, next time Greg, if you hear somebody needs a speaker on science advocacy or women in STEM or innovation, and you can say, well, I know somebody right. So that is how you build relationships and reinforce your existing one, because it thrives on your connections. And then finally, you have to kindle knowledge and curiosity by consistently sharing information, asking thought provoking provoking questions, because that creates the opportunity for learning and then perpetuates this cycle of thinking. So this ongoing process of knowledge sharing and stimulating curiosity is critical for effective thought leadership. So I have to say it goes beyond merely just sharing information. It involves, you know, some creating some content, presenting new possibilities, inspiring learning, challenging assumptions, encouraging others to contribute. And that's really the road map in my mind. So I call it spark again now that you love my acronyms. Spark stands for how do you spark, thought leadership. S is for scan, scope study. P is for provide perspective. A is amplify an advocate. R is reach out, reinforce relationship, and k is Kindle curiosity. And so I really think by this framework, you can take steps to bolster your credibility, grounded in authenticity, increase your visibility, build community and create opportunity through your thought leadership platform, brick by brick by brick, well
Greg Voisen
and everything you say is actually as you talked about the fine print, it's really about the fine print, because it's one thing to put a lab coat on and get underneath a microscope and study the effects. It's another thing to bring awareness to what it is that you've studied and are trying to get the. World to understand why there's a problem there. And that's the good part. I see when people are doing what I would say, press, you know, having the press come out and say, Hey, La Jolla Institute immunology. Look at these women. Look at that. They've done. The world needs to know some way, because then more grant money comes in, more stem money comes in from stem from people who say, Hey, that's a great thing. And I have some great stories around that, actually, but I'm not, don't have time to talk about them today, so that you've collaborated with all kinds of other scholars. And that's one of the things that happens when you form this community in this network, and the leaders bring many of their, what you call frameworks, to life. Now, a long time ago, Doctor Edmondson and myself, Professor Edmondson, I was in a workshop with her down in Florida, and she and Larry Wilson and myself were in that workshop. And I remember Amy just very much because of her energy. She was just so full of all kinds of energy. You highlighted communication mistakes that people should avoid. I wonder if you could discuss the effective community, the role effective communication plays in really driving innovation. Because, you know, look, it's you. You use that in one of your acronyms, communication, communication, communication, you said five minutes ago. So this is a good point. Bring that highly, yeah,
Jayshree Seth
you know. And it's been amazing to work with people like Professor Amy Edmondson. I still have to pinch myself that that happened. But, you know, she's definitely an expert on leadership and psychological safety and team learning, but executive communications have a very strong impact on generating positive emotions, and that impacts employee morale. And you asked about the role of communication, there is a theory in psychology. It's called broaden and build a theory, and what that suggests is that positive emotions lead to higher creativity, better problem solving, and an increased ability and desire for action towards finding solutions. So positive emotions are also associated with more flexible thinking. You increase your social bonds, well, if you have negative emotions, it hinders both. So you narrow your mindset, you reduce your connections, and you limit your problem solving ability. And so really executive communications impact morale and immoral impacts innovation. And you know this was really important, because in 2023 there were widespread layoffs, employee morale was low. It's likely going on in 2024 and that impacts productivity and creativity and innovation, and this at a time when the world needs science based, scalable, sustainable innovation. In fact, in 2023 our survey results said 90% people said we need companies to accelerate innovation, particularly to address challenges like climate change. So that's why I thought was very important to do a piece on a framework that I developed around impact of leadership, communications on innovation. And Professor Edmondson agreed to partner with me, and the article came out in Fast Company. Well,
Greg Voisen
one of the things, whether it's a movement, and in your case, this is a movement for people to get behind Martin Luther King or a jay Sheree, because you're trying to make a difference. It's really about you being authentic. You said it before you coming out and communicating that authenticity and that sincerity in your voice, in the language and the way in which you actually articulate your message, and people will grab on to that. People will support that. You know, I'm I have a nonprofit called compassionate communications, and we are actually now embarking on a 90 minute documentary, and it's about how compassion will heal the world. The reality, though, is nobody knows anything until you message that right until you can get that across, and they'll go, well, is that's just another documentary. I've seen another one of those. Well, there can't be enough of them, considering what's going on, like you just said a minute ago, global warming, the challenges we're having, the things that need to be fixed. So I love your message. So now looking ahead, what are the goals for the next five years? In terms of your stem advocacy and expanding the impact of this lot thought leadership platform, because you know you've got to now sustain it. You started it so it's up to you to keep running it, keep raising money, keep giving out grants to these young women and. And then tracking their progress, so that you then can highlight that progress before a larger group of people to say, look, here's somebody who had a grant. And I would say that yours is a, you know, it could be a 60 or 80 year program that you're embarked upon.
Jayshree Seth
Yeah. I mean, you know, to me, like, fundamentally, I don't look at things that are isolated to me. It's all connected. It's all connected. So that's the way I look at it, that there's so much to do, because it isn't just about STEM advocacy. Why do we need that? We need that because we need innovation. Why do we need that? Because we need leadership. So it's all connected to me. So I'm not worried about running out of the bricks to put on this wall and keep building the platform right. So keep executing on the ABC strategy, keep sparking thought leadership. We're now also doing research, and are actually our results were published in a nature journal. We're trying to understand how to increase sense of belonging in STEM because you may also know, a lot of people go into STEM do their degrees and never take up STEM jobs, because they just or don't sustain during their STEM education. So we have been looking into that. So it's great. Three, I'm a sponsor to research with Indiana University Brain Sciences Lab, and we are actually finding out some great things, and we're building a repository right now of how STEM Educators can use a purpose reflection in their classroom, and it can have a profound impact on increasing belonging. And all it is is reflecting on your why and why you're doing what you're doing. So it's an amazing experience to have this goal congruity and remind students of that. And so prism is our repository, purpose, reflection, integration and stem modalities. Surprise, it's an acronym, but you know, STEM education often fails to consider the reflection of goals, and that's why you have this incongruity. We're also reaching out to a lot of organizations. Consortiums were part of STEM opportunity Alliance. I recently went to the White House for that, and there's always a lot more people like you said they're there, it just takes a while to connect to them. So thank you for your help and connecting me to others. But bottom line I feel is, can we really advocate for sustainable innovation without talking about diversity and leadership. Can we really advocate for inclusive leadership without talking about innovation and diversity? Can we really advocate for diversity without talking about leadership and innovation? And can we really afford to have a maze of parallel and intersecting roads, or can we all pull this together for a road map and a faster highway? So what I say is it's time for all advocates to band together and dial up your advocacy. Diversity is not about differences. It is a competitive differentiation. Innovation is not optional. It's the only option. Advocacy is not a passive act. It is about authentic passion and leadership is not just a quality, it is an earned qualification. So
Greg Voisen
as you were talking, my mind went to some books that I had previously read from Margaret Wheatley, and I would presume, as a scientist, you've maybe read her book, leadership and the new science, okay? And one of the quotes that I think might be appropriate to end the show on would be actually a Margaret Wheatley quote, and it says, We are I'm sorry. The river never drinks its own water. The tree never tastes its own fruit. The field never consumes its own harvest. They selflessly strive for the well being of all of those around them, and that's actually a proverb that she quoted, but I always loved her analogy about biology and the ecosphere and how we affect it, and we're all interrelated and interconnected. And what I'm really getting out that is about the well being of everyone. And I know this make sound cliche, because people hear me say this, but really, I just mentioned to you before, there are two skills that the lawyer, are compassionate and insight. Compassion is easy. It arises spontaneously from an open heart. Insight, or discernment, requires more skill. We have to choose our battles, and if anybody wants to get a little bit of thought, go read some of Margaret wheatley's quotes. Also read her book called leadership and the new science. I think it'll go a long way. Thank you. Thank you, Cherie, for being on inside personal growth, sharing not only a little bit about your personal story, but really, more importantly, about your. Passion. Your work with STEM your work with young women, the actual grants, I'm saying grants, but you've given out four so far just from the sale of the books. I encourage you to keep on, keeping on, because next year, when I talk to you at this time, it's going to be 12, and then it's going to go to 24 and then it's going to grow exponentially, like things can in science. And before you know it, you're going to be giving out hundreds of grants a year. I hope
Jayshree Seth
so, because I should tell you that I'm working on my third book. It'll be final in this trilogy. It'll be called engineering blueprint, and this book has a lot of my frameworks brought to life in a worksheet fashion. So I'm very excited about that workbook. I'm
Greg Voisen
excited to get that one. So when you do, I'm inviting you to remember to come back on the show and let me know when that book breaks, because that book is actually going to fund the same thing. I assume it's being written to actually fund the STEM program, right? Yeah, same,
Jayshree Seth
same, same. And I and I encourage you all to buy and give the gift of education. It's the best gift you can give.
Greg Voisen
Well, Namaste to you. Thank you for being on inside personal growth. Thanks for sharing your insight, your wisdom, more importantly, about the good work that you're doing, and your two books will put both of those links on our blog entry. So, and we'll also put a link to you, which I've recently just found at Stanford, that gives more about your bio and so on.
Jayshree Seth
So, I'm on LinkedIn every day, so please follow me on LinkedIn.
Greg Voisen
Okay.
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Inside Personal Growth with Greg Voisen · Podcast 1141: A Case for Compassion with Sara SchairerIn a deeply engaging discussion on the transformative power of compassion and mindfulness, Sara Schairer, the founder of Compassion It and author of the book A Case for Compassion: What Happens When We Prioritize People and the Planet, shares her insights and experiences with us. Her organization advocates for social change through fostering compassion in communities and personal practices.
The Journey to Compassion
Sara begins by recounting her personal journey, which led her to establish Compassion It. She explains that her own experiences with hardship and personal growth catalyzed her mission to spread compassion. Sara emphasizes that compassion isn’t merely an emotional response but a daily practice that involves both understanding and action.
Defining Compassion
“Compassion involves recognizing the suffering of others and then taking action to help,” explains Sara. She distinguishes compassion from empathy, noting that while empathy refers to our ability to feel others’ emotions, compassion drives us to alleviate those feelings of suffering.
Compassion in Action
Sara shares several initiatives by Compassion It, including workshops and training sessions that encourage individuals to practice compassion both towards themselves and others. She highlights the ripple effects of such practices, noting how they enhance interpersonal relationships and community well-being.
Mindfulness as a Foundation
Central to compassion, according to Sara, is mindfulness. She describes mindfulness as the awareness that arises through paying attention to the present moment without judgment. “Mindfulness helps us pause before reacting, allowing us to act from a place of compassion rather than impulsivity,” Sara asserts.
The Global Impact
Reflecting on the global impact of her work, Sara shares stories from the field, including how Compassion It’s programs have reached schools, prisons, and corporate environments. These stories illustrate how transformative and far-reaching compassion can be when integrated into various aspects of society.
Conclusion
The interview concludes with Sara urging listeners to incorporate compassion into their daily lives. She believes that even small acts of kindness can lead to significant social changes. Sara’s message is clear: compassion is accessible to everyone, everywhere, and its practice can lead to profound changes in the world.
Learn more about Sara and their company by visiting their website.
You may also refer to the transcripts below for the full transciption (not edited) of the interview.
Interview Transcipt -Not EditedEmailDownloadNew TabGreg Voisen
Well, welcome back to Inside Personal Growth. This is Greg Voisen, the host of Inside Personal Growth, and joining me from not that far away here in San Diego, actually, down in a city called Pacific Beach. Is Sara Schairer, did I say it right?
Sara Schairer
Schairer.
Greg Voisen
Schairer. See, I got it wrong.
Sara Schairer
That's okay.
Greg Voisen
Nothing worse than it, nothing worse than pronouncing somebody's name incorrectly. Shire. It's called a case for compassion. What happens when we prioritize people and the planet? And I was just sharing with Sara that my nonprofit is going to do a 90 minute documentary, and it's on very much of what Sara talks about. So Sara is the founder and executive director of compassionate you can just type in compassionate.com.
Sara Schairer
compassion, it, two words, compassionit.com
Greg Voisen
Yeah, and I'll put that in the link to nonprofit and global social movement whose mission is to inspire daily compassion, actions and attitudes. She's the senior facilitator of compassion cultivation training CCT developed at Stanford University. Sara spent 10 years leading trainings globally for audiences of all walks of life and big tech leaders and in people that incarcerated individuals as well. Sara teaches the course the practices and sciences of mindfulness and compassion at San Diego State University, and she's an adjunct faculty member. She also facilitates compassion courses at UCSD, that's right, Karen San Diego center for mindfulness, and has shared her compassionate message on TEDx. We'll put a link to the TEDx talk as well as we said. She's the author of this book, that's why she's here today. She gives talks, she leads experiential workshops, consults on compassionate systems and self compassion. And boy, do we need it more than ever in this world of burnout. And I don't have the bracelet where I can touch it, but it's right over here someplace. She's got these really cool compassion Do you have one on? Of course, I have the two of them on. That's right, self compassion and compassionate. So well, it's an honor having you on the show and always the litters, the readers, the listeners, they always want to know. So you know why you why now? Why this book? What are their specific moments or experiences they kind of triggered this for you to want to do this. Now, I know the book isn't brand new, but it has been a lifelong mission of yours.
Sara Schairer
Well, not quite. It's been a mission that has been brewing since 2008 and that's a long story about how I got into the field of compassion, but it came from seeing an Ellen episode where she was interviewing Wayne Dyer, and he said compassion is the most important lesson to teach our children, that if we could teach our children compassion, we would solve the social problems of the world. And I couldn't stop thinking about it. And that evening, the word compassionate appeared in my mind as two words compassion. It making compassion a verb like Google it or just do it. And I thought, Hey, that's pretty clever. That maybe that should be a bumper sticker. And I kind of sat on the idea for a few years and began compassioning it in my own life, and I realized that that little phrase was very powerful and was changing my life. And so I thought I need to get this out there. So it started making stickers and T shirts, and that turned into these wristbands that you flip from one side to the other. And these wristbands turned compassionate into a global social movement. So when you compassion it, you flip your wristband. It's like a little reward, little tangible reminder and positive feedback that helps you keep compassioning it. And then we have a self compassion version too. Anyhow. So the wristbands turned it into a global movement. And because of my obsession with compassion, I found out that Stanford University has a center for compassion and altruism, research and education, and that's that's Dr Doughty program, and he it's part of the med school there at Stanford. And they had developed an eight week course to help people cultivate compassion, and they were looking for two. Sure. So I was in the very first cohort to be trained to teach that course through Stanford. So I've been teaching compassion now for over 11 years. And
Greg Voisen
how is the Dalai Lama involved in that? I know he is. Yes, he obviously, it's a great place to go get your education on. He's a pretty compassionate
Sara Schairer
guy. Yeah, he gave the largest grant he'd ever given a non Tibetan organization to Stanford to start this center. So he and Dodi had forged a friendship, and the center was born out of the Dalai Lama's generosity and his principal English trans English translator, theft in Jinpa is the main author of the eight week course compassion cultivation training.
Greg Voisen
He just passed away, right? No, no. Interpreter. That just passed away. I
Sara Schairer
don't know it wasn't Jinpa, unless I'm out of the loop, I think I would have heard that, but I did hear. I
Greg Voisen
did hear through the great mind that his main interpreter had passed away. But that's here, nor there. The point is, is that you guys have this connection, that the comp, the Center for compassion and altruism, there was a donation by the Dalai Lama, Dr Doty, for those who haven't, he was just on the show for his last book, which is phenomenal. Uh, a really, very interesting, deep man. So I'm going to encourage you to go to that. So in the book, you explore the concept of compassion deeply.
Sara Schairer
How I'm going to pause you for a second, Greg, just to share with you why I wrote the book, because that was okay question, because I've been teaching compassion for 10 years to individuals of all walks of life. And when I zoomed out and looked at the progress that our world was making, I realized the compassion needle doesn't seem to be moving. And I thought, well, what do we need to do here in order to really make this stick? And I realized, what we need are compassionate systems. We can't put the onus on every single individual to be compassionate. We need our governments, our schools, our correctional institutions, our healthcare institutions, our workplaces, these larger systems need to be compassionate and allow for compassion to happen within them. So, I began focusing on systems, and that's what the book is about. Is, how do we take our systems from the state they are to compassionate systems, and what will be the outcomes?
Greg Voisen
Well, it'd be nice to flip on a switch or have a magic wand and let people know that the best way they could heal themselves and others would be through more compassion. Unfortunately, that ability to shift consciousness globally takes a movement like yours, even if it's a wristband, to remember that that's what we're supposed to do. I always tell people, if there was a video watching you all day long and you played it back, would you like what you saw? And I think that if you liked what you saw and you were more compassionate, both with your fellow worker, with your wife, with your children, with whomever, you would feel more a deeper sense of compassion for yourself, so you kind of get back what you give, right? So, in the book, you explored this concept of compassion deeply. But how would you meaning, Sara, define compassion, and how does it differ from empathy and sympathy?
Sara Schairer
Compassion is recognizing suffering, feeling this need to help, so being compelled to help, and then having the willingness to take action. Okay, so with empathy, you have that feeling that you're connecting to the suffering of another. You can also connect to someone's joy. That's also empathy, so the you're resonating with their experience. But there's this additional piece of being moved to help, having the willingness to take action that's not part of empathy. Empathy is just feeling with someone, and then sympathy is really feeling for someone. So maybe you're not experiencing the feelings that they have, that you understand that someone is going through a hard time, and you feel for them
Greg Voisen
very good. That's a very good delineation between the three of those things. So, you know, in the book, you speak about this in in a sense of the work environment, you know our personal lives. So can you elaborate and what it what makes a leader like. Dr Doty or Dalai Lama, compassionate, and how this style of leadership can impact the organization. Because it's one thing to say that you go, Oh, well, that's just a cool, really kind of nice guy. But it's, it's a lot more are a nice woman, right? So, I know when people in in ages before we would say, well, Mahatma Gandhi, or a Mother Teresa or somebody put up a picture of all these leaders that were compassionate. So, tell us about these leaders and how it impacts the organization.
Sara Schairer
Well, okay, so I will back up and say the leader, the kind of leaders I'm speaking about are managers at work or a CEO, or, you know, a police chief, someone who's is is running a team or an organization, or maybe an emerging leader. I think each of us can be considered leaders. Actually, it's it would be really hard for someone to think that they could be like the Dalai Lama or Gandhi or Mother Teresa. I don't want to put that on anyone to think that they have to have that level of compassion. But if we have leaders who care about their teams that matters if we have leaders who can model vulnerability so they can show others, Hey, it's okay on our team to make mistakes. I'm human, just like you. So, let's create, you know, I have this is a safe atmosphere where we can we can try things, we can make mistakes. We can own them, and nobody's punished for it. Leaders create connections for teammates so that people feel like they belong and that they're cared for by their fellow teammates. And leaders also look at compassionate leaders also look at their systems and say, Look, how am I running meetings? How do we get things done here? What are HR practices like at this organization? So that people do feel cared for and compassionate leaders listen. That's something that we don't do very well in our society, is actually listen in order to understand, not to respond or to have the answer, but just to hear someone so if you have a leader that can possess all of those skills, you will have employees who are engaged at work, and they are going to want to leave. I know that when I had bosses, if I had a boss who cared for me and went to bat for me and listened to me. I didn't want to leave that organization, because when you don't have a boss that cares boy, life can be pretty miserable. So, it really matters.
Greg Voisen
How do leaders juggle between I'm sorry, but I'm listening to you. How are you juggling between the demands from upstairs. Let's just call it that if they're a middle level manager, because that's what you said you were addressing. Doesn't matter where they are, the demands for a company to because you talk about people, planet profits, right? I know that concept really well, and I think you're a B Corp too.
Sara Schairer
Is that right?
Greg Voisen
Nonprofit, nonprofit. So my question then is, how do I as a leader, juggle between what's been given to me and if the culture of the organization is not how do you want to call it embracing us, to be compassionate? How do I get that message across to say, hey, this is going to make more profits for the company. We're going to have better customers. Customers are going to be happier. The employees are going to be happy. Over Turner, turnover is going to go down. All of the things that people want to hear, but yet sometimes they don't believe it when you tell them, oh, well, it's just compassion that's going to do that.
Sara Schairer
Well, I think like anything, what you do is you model it right. And if you're showing that, boy, I'm compassionate for myself, I'm compassionate for my team, and look at our outcomes. So, I think if you have leaders who are, you know, higher ups who are resistant to compassion. It doesn't mean that you can't practice it within your own team, as long as you understand that just because you're compassionate doesn't mean that you're not meeting goals and you're not accomplishing what you know. You can have compassion and still have high standards. You can be kind and still have high expectations, and, you know, requests from your team, things that need to get done. So I think oftentimes people think compassion means you're a soft you're a soft pushover who doesn't demand high, I don't know, high achieve. Admit or doesn't have high expectations, and those can go hand in hand.
Greg Voisen
Okay? I concur. I concur with you. I hope the listeners out there Concur as well. Now look, my wife was a school teacher for 24 years. Educational Institutions have continued to want to go down this path with integrating compassion into their systems, at least, I see it trying to happen. How do they foster more nurturing and supportive environment where really the students and the educators alike? So, you know, obviously there's certain institutions you could call to that say, well, they're probably doing better at being compassionate. I know we sent our kids early on to Montessori School. Well, did you send them to Montessori school because the education was great or because of the people that were running Montessori? And I'm not saying it still is or isn't. It is a great place to educate kids, and they were compassionate, they understood, they listened. So in education, the question is around educational systems, how can we help, or you help through your nonprofit to get greater awareness for educational institutions to make that change or shift?
Sara Schairer
Yeah, um, when I was doing research for the book, I found out that the University of Virginia developed this program called the compassionate Schools Project, and they were doing, they've been doing a huge study for years to see the outcomes. And what they're finding is that when you are teach, when you teach compassion, these skills of mindfulness, compassion, nutrition, I can't remember what else I think maybe mindful movement as well. And to young people, it helps. Obviously, the students feel better. And it also trickles up to the teachers, the teachers have a better handle on the classroom. But one thing that I when I spoke to the researchers of this project, they told me about a study they had done that found that if you don't have state like multiple levels of people that buy into this so you need parents to care. You need your teachers, your administrators and your students to all be behind an initiative that says, hey, we want this to be a school that focuses on compassion or mindfulness. If you don't have it at every level, it's really not going to be embedded into the culture, and it's not it's not going to go very far, the outcomes aren't going to be as good. So that was a tricky one when I was when I was doing research for the book. I wanted to show like, Hey, here's an example of an educational system that prioritizes compassion. Their teachers are taking care well taken care of administrators, model compassion and self compassion. Students are given the benefit of the doubt if they're acting up, you know, they're treated like humans. I could not find globally. I could not find an example of a school system that really focused on compassion. So that was disheartening, because I also think if we are taught this when we're young, that's just a skill then we'll have throughout our lives. So I do think, though, that the work being done out of the University of Virginia is promising, and that's that is a program that's free for schools to access.
Greg Voisen
I don't advocate that people disengage or somehow disconnect money with being compassionate, because we have a system that relies on monetary forward process, moving programs. It's nice when there's endowments like the Dalai Lama giving it to stand here for university to do the studies and the research and so on. But that's not most people's case, and it's really not the case in law enforcement and incarceration. And I'm going to make this a kind of a compound question, because one, you've done work in and people incarcerated, but also it's the people that are actually running those prisons, and then the people that are putting them into the prisons. Okay, so we're talking about a very complicated system here, between lawyers, judges, law enforcement, law enforcement, and then the prison, uh, parole boards everywhere. I mean, it's like this one huge, gigantic institution. And if people were to look at the amount of money we spend on it, the question now goes back to and I. Again, it's a compound question, what would you do to help that whole system shift? That's a big question. I get it. But more importantly, what would you do to help young kids growing up in society today so they don't end up in those institutions because of the lack of compassion in the household, or the lack of compassion where they worked, because frequently, when they get off track, that's where they end up. Yeah, tough question. I get it, but, yeah, I'm trying. I'm trying to give you something to think about. Sara,
Sara Schairer
oh boy. Okay, well, let's, let's start with law enforcement. I did write a chapter about law enforcement in the book, and you might think that the chapter is focused on asking law enforcement to be compassionate toward offenders. And even though that is a that is a piece of it, what I write a lot about is that our law enforcement aren't healthy, oftentimes mentally and physically, and it's the jobs that they have are demanding. They aren't given the resources or taught the skills to handle the kind of stress that they're under, and I don't think that we're setting them up to be compassionate with the people that they're working with. So I think we need to do a better job making sure that our police officers get enough sleep, that they're eating well, that when they have a call that's really traumatic, which you know, think about, who do you call on your very worst day when something terrible and tragic happens, they come. They're there, and they do that all day, every day. So what do we do for them when they have a tough call like that, or, you know, something that would be earth shattering for most of us? Do we just send them on to the next call, or is there time for them to process it? Are there protocols to help them heal? You know, I don't think we're not again. I don't think we're setting them up to be compassionate. So I would like to take better care of our police officers. For one, would you, would
Greg Voisen
you compliment this in the healthcare arena. I mean looking at emergency care workers, emergency doctors, emergency room nurses, you know, absolutely being responsive. I actually see this is just my humble opinion. I see some of the most unhealthy people actually around hospitals. I've actually gone to hospitals and seen the nurses out front smoking, or the nurses taking a break that way, or they're not looking at what they're eating, and they're becoming overweight as a result of just having so much stress that they deal with all the time. Right? So I would think for healthcare workers, this is as important as law enforcement as well.
Sara Schairer
Yeah, and educators. I mean everybody again. I mean, I think everyone should be, should be supported in a way that they can be physically and mentally healthy. So we can't, especially these folks who are caring for others. We have to allow them the time and the space and the community so that they are also they can take care of themselves, or they have people around them who can help take care of them. So, yes, absolutely. I mean our healthcare system, that's, you know, another question. But we don't, we don't set physicians and healthcare providers up with we don't set them up for success, right? They are given very little time with each patient. They have to sit behind a computer and type the whole time. So are they really engaging and listening and able to be present with you? They have to see you know, so many patients a day, and it's really hard to be compassionate. Well, that those are your parameters.
Greg Voisen
And most of these occupations, they they're understaffed, right? Yeah, so yeah, thing where they're doing the jobs of two, sometimes three people, which becomes extremely important because they don't have the time to be as compassionate or to do what they need to do. So the system overhaul is one thing. I don't think what we're talking about here, honestly, is a utopia, but it is. It is a shift in consciousness at a very high level, in a culture that exists that runs through each city's health care system, each City's law enforcement, educational cities, and it needs to be addressed. But because it's been so bureaucratic and this is just commentary, I think we now need to look to the political leaders that run these cities and municipalities to really help bring this aboard. And I actually. Think you going to those meetings with your compassionate bracelets. What actually is like the start? So look where now we've talked about what the problem and you've encountered many leaders and organizations that you believe exemplify compassion and leadership. What lessons have you learned, and what are some of them that you've actually seen where we could say, Yahoo, these people are doing.
Sara Schairer
I don't know if I personally have seen very many of them, but I will see some. I'm gathering, I'm gathering information and trying to highlight them more, somebody that comes to mind is the CEO of Airbnb, Brian Chesky. I heard him on Adam Grant's podcast somewhat recently, and he was talking about how he handled the massive layoffs that he had to conduct during covid. And it is, I mean, my heart just burst open when I heard him talk about the way he handled it. He wrote this very long, heartfelt email that he sent out to everyone and made sure that employees had resources to help them find another job, and gave them plenty of severance, and he really thought about the humanity of each individual, and that was key, right? He he didn't want them to suffer. So what? What did the company have? Didn't
Greg Voisen
do it like the office. You know that movie the office where the guy walks in across from the table says, you know, almost like Donald Trump, you're fired, right? Yeah, exactly you're you're fired. No, not just fired. I'm going to help you find something new. I'm going to provide you with resources. And I think that sense of compassion and a budget. So look, if people are sitting here today saying, hey, look, there can be shifts, shifting sands, maybe we should have a budget in our HR department that is really set up to help people make these transition and I think more and more organizations are doing that, but it really comes down to, how do I finance it? Right? It's like, okay, he did great, but Airbnb had lots of money and he had the ability. So you've got to find organizations that actually plan ahead, yeah? Or the possible, or possibility of something like that happening, yeah?
Sara Schairer
Well, that leads me to this next question, which is, how do, how would they fund that potentially? And so, something else that I found in in my research was that the, and if you think about it like the average or the maybe the lowest full time employee salary, if you compare that to a CEO salary of a fortune 500 company or S and p5 100 company, the ratio is one to 299 so the CEO, on average, makes 299 times more than the lowest paid full time employee. Now Dr bronners, if you've heard of that company, it's a San Diego based company, and they sell really good different things.
Greg Voisen
Eric Kaufman is their coach, and Bronner's now makes chocolate for all of you who don't know, yeah, yeah, they went from soap to chocolate.
Sara Schairer
They're still selling. So I saw on their Instagram feed that they have in place a rule that they have they can't have this. The CEO cannot make more than five times, right, right? Their lowest paid full time employee, so that still can be a pretty good salary, right? If your lowest paid employee makes $50,000 you're still making, I don't know, 252 50, that's but I would say, Hey, that's pretty great, right? So what I'm asking for is for the greed level. I hate to be so blunt about it, but when I look at these big companies, it feels like we have greedy people at the top who are making more money than they need to. Like, really? How much money do you need? Let's distribute that wealth so that everybody who works for you can have a good life, vacation. They can your HR, can have this fund for people who get laid off. I mean, the distribution of wealth within these companies, I think, is unconscionable, and that is something that I don't know how it can be fixed. I'm sure it's at a level. I mean, it probably should be regulated by the government, frankly, but we don't need CEOs making that much money.
Greg Voisen
Well, the Senate just grilled the president of Boeing, and Boeing, as you know, has had their own problems. And the guy said to him, you know, with all of this, you're supposed to be being transparent about the doors falling off and the planes crashing and all this. And he said, yet, but last year, you took $34 million so what? Why is your salary so much? And why aren't you transparent? And I thought they were good questions to ask. On the other hand, though, in the public arena to be so attacking of someone is not being very compassionate. It would have been better off having that conversation behind closed doors and for somebody to have made a decision, versus somebody getting angry and just frustrated by it, right? So I kind of look at that compassion and say, Well, that wasn't so compassionate either. To make an example of that guy. And I get people like they try to do that. So look you the global initiatives that you and I could talk about are many. There's got to be a lot between the planet and our educational systems and our law systems and our prisons, and you know, we could go on and on and on. And so you're saying, if we can, and I'm not saying we can't, or I should say, when we have people become more compassionate, we can make a significant stride in shifting, not only the consciousness of the individual, but the consciousness that they have, the love and compassion they have for themselves. You have two bracelets, one for me, one for everything else, right? And what have you found statistically through maybe the NIH where studies have been done, or places where you could cite, where you say, hey, it's been proven that if you practice self compassion and you practice compassion for others, I do know of one doctor who constantly comes to the Show, who's been that's all his focus is. His nonprofit is compassion. What do you have anything that statistically could tell me, Hey, if I start doing this, things are going to get better in my company.
Sara Schairer
Well, I wish that I had something off the top of my head that said, Hey, if you're a compassionate company, this is going to be your outcome. I don't have that kind of data. I think it makes sense to know like, hey, when employees are taken care of, employee engagement goes up, and retention rates are much better. So I think, although we don't have. I mean, I don't have, I'm sorry that I don't have those numbers, but I do know that when employees feel taken care of and they are engaged, they're going to stay at an organization. So I don't, I just don't have anything to cite, which is my bad, but that's
Greg Voisen
okay. I do, you know, it's an off the wall question, but the the point is, is that there are people like in the in your case, you got your education and training from the Center for compassion and altruism. I guarantee people, if you want to do enough research on this, you're going to find just go out and search the web, plenty of places that will provide statistics, if that's what you want to if you're in a corporation, you're saying, Look, I gotta measure things, and I'm going great. So go ahead and measure it, and I guarantee you that you will find positive results from all of this work, not negative results. So what in your mind, is a takeaway message you want the listeners to get from your book, in this case, a case for compassion. And how would individuals start incorporating not only more compassion for themselves, but more compassion for others? And how does this now relate to and I'll add that the place where I work, where I go in every day, you know, I remember the in the days when I was going to spirituality and business conferences, we would say, well, you when you come to work, You can't bring your spirituality? Well, the reality is that is who I am. So I have to bring my spiritual being to work. Whether I'm Muslim, Jew, Catholic, Protestant, Christian, it doesn't matter. And I have to be able to let people know that that's who I am and what I am. So how do I now bring because in every one of those faith based religions, those religions, those uh, philosophies, it's all about compassion,
Sara Schairer
right? They all have that in common. They do. It's true, yep, every human. Can agree on compassion, I believe it's, it is a unifying trait, yeah, or principle, um, that's a lot of questions, and I'm going to try to be succinct. I would say,
Greg Voisen
yeah. One question is, how do I leaving this show by Sara actually be more compassionate to myself and the people around me.
Sara Schairer
Well, you already mentioned it, but start with you and tend to your own suffering first. So start tuning into yourself. Be aware of what is your body telling you does? Is it telling you You need rest? Is it telling you to go move outside or to have a snack. Really tune in to your body and your emotions and your thoughts and be aware of what you need, because when you are taking care of yourself, you can take care of others. So take care of yourself and recognize that you are a human being who makes mistakes, and that's okay, because again, when you recognize your own humanity, you're able to then see the humanity of others, and your compassion will unfold naturally. So I would say, begin with yourself, and then just open your eyes to those around you and notice that everyone is just like you. Everybody has something they're worried about. Everybody has hopes and dreams. Everybody wants to be loved and accepted. And when you see that in every human being, again, your compassion will unfold so in today's political climate. And you know, with all of the hard things we're going through right now, it's very easy to not see others as like me, but when I allow my heart to stay open and to realize even this person who is on the other side of the political aisle who maybe sees issues very differently than I do, I can see that they're a human being worthy of compassion, and when I relate to others and myself with compassion, I can tell you from experience, my life has improved vastly, and I feel more connected and happier and more at peace. So that is
Greg Voisen
what you can do. One of the big things is forgiveness. Sara, so, you know, look, one of the things I've seen that have really transformed people's lives is the ability, if an act of some kind of something has been portrayed on someone, for them to forgive the person who committed the act. I don't care if it was some kind of crime or if it was rape or whatever it might have been, or even smaller things than that. But you know, when you hear people who say, you know, I've forgiven the other person for that and that, that takes a lot, okay, because we're kind of programmed as human beings to want to have some kind of restitution or crap like that, right? And I've seen people get angry and then carry that anger the rest of their lives, and it doesn't do any good for them or anyone around them. So compassion would be it, and importantly, self compassion and forgiveness and self forgiveness, I agree. Yeah, I agree. So your book for all of my listeners, the case for compassion. What happens when we prioritize people and the planet? Go out and get a copy. I'll put a link to her website as well. It's been a pleasure having you on the show and speaking about some really important issues, but I think the biggest issue is how we can shift our own consciousness to be more aware of what we're doing, and if this podcast made you at least a little bit aware of how it is you treat yourself and others. We've done our job. So yeah, Namaste to you. Thank you for being on Inside Personal Growth.
Sara Schairer
Thanks, Greg. It's my pleasure. I really appreciate it.
Greg Voisen
Thank you.
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Inside Personal Growth with Greg Voisen · Podcast 1140: The Reset Mindset with Penny ZenkerIn this episode, Penny Zenker, a leading figure in productivity and strategic time management, recently shared invaluable advice on making the most out of every minute, both personally and professionally. She also shares about her upcoming book The Reset Mindset: Get Unstuck, Focus on What Matters Most, and Reach Your Goals Faster. In a riveting discussion, she laid out strategies that can transform mere time management into a fruitful time investment. Here are the insights and practical tips she shared:
Embracing the Time Investment Mindset
Penny introduces the concept of a “time investment mindset,” urging us to view time as a crucial resource. This perspective encourages managing time with the intent to gain substantial returns in terms of personal satisfaction and professional success. By investing time wisely, we not only achieve more but also enhance the quality of our accomplishments.
The Art of Priority Management
Moving beyond traditional time management, Penny emphasizes “priority management.” This approach focuses on engaging in activities that align directly with personal and professional goals. She notes, “True productivity isn’t just about doing things right; it’s about doing the right things.” Through real-life examples, Penny demonstrates how reassessing and realigning daily tasks with long-term objectives leads to significant outcomes.
Tackling Productivity Pitfalls
Penny identifies common pitfalls that undermine productivity, such as multitasking and succumbing to digital distractions. Contrary to popular belief, multitasking dilutes focus and hampers deep, impactful work. Penny advocates for setting clear boundaries around technology use and recommends carving out dedicated time blocks for priority tasks to cultivate a focused work environment.
Overcoming Procrastination
In her latest book, Penny offers strategies to overcome one of the biggest barriers to effective time management: procrastination. The book provides a toolkit that includes techniques for enhancing self-awareness, boosting motivation, and restructuring thought patterns to foster a productivity-oriented mindset.
Conclusion
Penny Zenker’s insights provide a roadmap for anyone eager to enhance their efficiency and effectiveness. By adopting her strategies, individuals can harness their time and energy to not only meet but exceed their personal and professional goals.
You may learn more about Penny and what she does by visiting her website and discount page.
You may also refer to the transcripts below for the full transciption (not edited) of the interview.
Interview Transcipt -Not EditedEmailDownloadNew TabGreg Voisen
Well, welcome back to Inside Personal Growth for another episode. I don't know which episode this will be. But joining me from the other side of the country, you're in Pennsylvania, correct? Correct. Yes, is Penny Zenker. And her book is called the reset mindset. And she was referred to me by Greg Reid, who's been on the show many times and is a friend of pennies. And if you get this easy-to-read book, look, it's only this thick. And it is an easy-to-read book. And it's a smaller book. And I find that Penny most people are so busy to do these are the kinds of books they're looking to read is the small ones that they can read on a plane, right? Absolutely.
Penny Zenker
Yeah, I even wanted to make it smaller. But you know, you need more time to make it even smaller.
Greg Voisen
Yes, you do you do. Well, I thank you for being on the show. And I'm going to let our listeners know a little bit about you because I always start off these shows, giving them a little bit of background Penny. She calls herself aka the focus. ologists is an international speaker, business strategy coach and one of America's leading experts in the psychology of productivity. She had a previous book called The Productivity zone, which was an Amazon instant bestseller. So congratulations on that. And so she decided to write another one. And so here we are. She's a leading expert, as I said and productivity, eliminating distractions, perfectionism and self sabotage to maximize results in every area of one's life and business. By the time she was 31, I found this really interesting. Penny founded, developed and sold her first multimillion dollar business in Zurich, Switzerland, I'm actually dealing with a company now called Stronger, they make bicycles electric bikes, and they're in Switzerland. Later she managed business units, turned around for a large marketing research company, and served as a Tony Robbins business coach. Tony used to be here in San Diego, I now know he's moved to Florida, helping entrepreneurs worldwide, double their businesses. As I said her first book, The Productivity zone, was an Amazon bestseller. And you can find her on TED talks as well. We'll have a link to that. The energy of thought, well, you've been around young lady, and you've got an opportunity to speak to 1000s of people. So people go to your website, which I'm going to mention that website so that they can do it. It is Penny z e n k e R three sixty.com. That's Penny, ze n k er three sixty.com. Go to that website, if you want to know more. Well, look, you wrote one book. First off, it was a great seller, everybody's interested in productivity. What What inspired you to write the reset mindset? And what key experiences in your life really led to you developing the concepts in this book?
Penny Zenker
We'll start with the first question. You know, what's interesting is it started out as a different book. So it started out where I was going to write a book that was called something it was going to be called something about living the 8020 rule. And and then as I started to dig in it and how I use the 8020 rule and what it is to me and looking at how I work with people and what my process has been, I realized that the 8020 rule is a reset practice. It's only one of many different practices that I use to help me to reset or to help a company or a business leader that I'm working with to to create that reset. So I, it like morphed into this, you know, different where it's really about the mindset and having a reset mindset and how we approach these different challenges or changes that we're facing and how do we it became what the reset mindset is today is about how we create more of a dynamic reassessment of mindset that makes us more dynamic. And so I kind of call it the next generation of the growth mindset. Because the growth mindset is about effort and persistence. and learning and growing. And we're we want that as well. But we don't have to put as much effort or persistence in if we dynamically reassess, we can learn faster, we do it real time, and we shorten the learning curve.
Greg Voisen
Well, and one of these is you mentioned in the book that this reset mindset, and I get this because, look, it's it's when people are trying to get focused and become more productive, you know, the whole flow thing is a big deal. You know, how do I get into this state of flow? What are the actual chemical releases in my body, if we really want to get to the mechanisms of it, the endorphins, endorphins in the oxytocin's, and the things that make me feel good. And it's almost like timelessness right. Now, you said that this reset mindset, was this, initially a coping mechanism for personal tragedy? How did this evolve into the broader strategy of your life and work? And what personal strategy, personal tragedy might you be referencing?
Penny Zenker
Right? So when I started to dig into my process, and how long have I been doing this, when was the first time that I can recall, you know, taking these reset moments and living in this way, it was actually when I was 19, and my father died in an accident, when my parents were actually overseas on vacation. And, you know, so yeah, it was a time where my life was totally out of control. And I use these, what I call reset moments to give myself permission, to pull it together to you know, as that coping mechanism went in, where I needed it, so that I could take that purposeful pause, and just ground myself and reconnect to what matters most and, and just, you know, be able to control my emotions and focus, focus forward. So that's, that's how it started out. But the thing is, is like anything is you start to practice it, and it starts to produce benefits for you. It just helped me be calmer and more in control and more focused about, you know, what matters most where, where, who were the people that I want to be with, it was very clear to me right to who were the people who were there for me, and it was also a mechanism to help me let go, right, to feel freer to let go of the things I can't control or to let go of the people in my life that you know, aren't going to be there in the future, right, that there's a statement of reason, season lifetime, some people are in our life for a reason, or a season, or lifetime. And, you know, just getting understanding that not everybody is in our life for a lifetime. And, and then yeah, it was, it's like it started to show up in other areas, you know, outside of my relationships and showed up at work, how do I focus on the things that are going to grow the business that are going to bring my work, you know, to a greater impact? And how do I find ways to do other things, so it just kind of started to see them everywhere. And you know, that's what other people are telling me too, is they they start to because it's a sticky language to language gives us access, more access to the things that we already know to write. It's not like this is brain surgery, but it gives us greater access to it.
Greg Voisen
Well, and I also think, any that what you're seeing is I had a doctor on here, and you speak to this point where your father unexpectedly passed away or was killed in an accident. And it really gets us to kind of think about our finitude. Right. And when you start to reflect on the breaths that we take, and each moment are what are keeping us alive. So when you talk about reset, I just had a gentleman on here, who does breath work, I just did a podcast with him. And I think it's important for people in corporate America because there's so much stress to actually be able to learn how to get this reset mindset and you have three steps. You call it step back, get perspective and realign. If you would, could you walk us through this because this is at the core essence. It's like, hey, if this is all my listeners take away is this little simple practice. It will be worth their morning listening to this podcast.
Penny Zenker
Yeah, totally. And, you know, I kind of wanted to have something that made sense and that was kind of like the stop, drop and roll right is you know If you're in a fire, what do you do? Right, and it's stressful situation around you, you just stop, drop and roll. So what happens in a reset moment when we notice a signal that we're frustrated or upset with something, or we didn't get the result that we wanted? Or, you know, maybe we have a conflict with someone, wherever these types of signals show up, it intuitively, triggers of reset practice these three steps when we see it as a reset moment. So if you think about it, right, you say, you say, oh, you know, I need to reset, then automatically, what does that mean? It means that we have to step back away from the emotion away from the way we've always done it, and be able to be more objective about how we're looking at the situation. And then that in itself, it helps us to get some perspective to ask new questions to be open to new inputs, to, you know, see things from different angles. And, and then two, three, realign around to the best next step, or the bigger picture that we're working towards that our actions are aligning with our goals, our values and our intention. So it's, it's three simple steps, step back, get perspective and realign and we all know them. It's not like, wow, this is, you know, some kind of new thing. But the thing is, do we have access to it in the moments that we need it? Right, that's, that's usually when we're the least objective is when we're emotions are high, our intellect slow. So if we, if we engage in this practice, then it's going to help us to be more emotionally intelligent to make better decisions to, you know, to reduce the intensity so that we can approach it in with our best self and not necessarily, you know, jump after the first emotion that comes up, or the first solution that presents itself. I
Greg Voisen
love the realignment part I'm reflecting on as you're speaking, I co wrote a book many years ago called wisdom, wellness and redefining work. And that book, we used three there breaks and focus phrases for the employee population. So instead of going and taking a cigarette break, because I'm that old, we were telling people to go take a breather break, and then have a focus phrase, right? What is your mantra? What would be your focus phrase? Yeah. And your realignment really is around kind of that focus phrase, what do I tell myself once I get there? So I think that where this could be very helpful for our corporate listeners, is in organizations to foster this reset mindset among employees, because you wrote a book on productivity so that's a key A to enhance the productivity, enhance the innovation, enhance our creativeness enhance our adaptability, how would you then advise people, especially in this fast paced environment, world in which we're living, to actually utilize the content from this little book, right, to actually help them or I should say, remind them to reset, because really, now it becomes down like, oh, man, I'm busy every day, I don't have time to reset.
Penny Zenker
That's true. And that's, that's what everybody says, I don't have time to slow down, I need to push through this. But I think it's exactly that time that you feel like I don't have the time you're making that you're saying these these phrases that are, you know, self sabotage, in a package. Right. They're they're phrases that that we know, we need to and that's why we're telling ourselves that we don't have time. And that's exactly the time that we need to do it. You know, I love that the focus phrases, so reset is a focus phrase, it is right. And so and I've heard people using this and they said, you know, we had a really emotional heated situation where they needed to bring in the CEO because things had escalated so far. And everybody was at ends at this across the table. And someone was just at my event and they said, hey, could we just take a reset moment and step away from this for for three minutes and come back into the room. So let's let's all disperse and then come back. And when they came back in, they were able to see it from a fresh perspective. The escalation wasn't as high the intensity wasn't as high and they could more quickly come up with a solution that didn't require the CEO to be involved. So and it simply was from somebody calling for a reset. I
Greg Voisen
actually think Penny, you should be speaking to all the media companies in this world who keep pushing this stuff out. out into the world and have never taken a reset. Because their whole job is to sell the world based on what it is that they have to say and to get people hyped up. And there couldn't be somebody better to walk into CBS, NBC, ABC, whatever it might be a CNN and have him do some reset mindset without just my commentary to be honest with you. Yes, that is what we're fed every day, all day long. We
Penny Zenker
are and maybe to speak to that point. Because, unfortunately, I'm not sure that we can change because the media is set up to demand to push stuff to get our attention. So with that being said, we have to take back our intention, and attention, right, take back our focus by saying, I'm not going to watch the news, right, I do not watch the news. And if I did, it's at key points, certainly first thing in the morning, that's the worst thing that anybody could do, would be to watch the news, because that's the energy that you're starting the day with. And so we need to be, you know, really owning our focus and owning our energy. And owning our intentions means we have to be more disciplined and structured as to how we want to consume that type of information. And, you know, and how much of a part we allow it to be a part of our lives, right. So these things can be distractions. And so if we want to be intentional in in our life, in our relationships in our businesses, then you know, that's one place to start to, is to say, what do I need less of in my life? You know, and and put some, some structured boundaries around the information that we're allowing into ourselves.
Greg Voisen
Yeah. And I think you know, this, you discuss the importance of adapting to change. And it seems like things seems like things are changing all the time around us. And I will say the speed of change is there. And I say to you, what are some practical strategies for individuals and organizations to kind of embrace change and turn the challenges into opportunities? Because I remember Jonathan field saying that literally, if you go through uncertainty, you get the opportunity. And I think uncertainty is one of the things that we're all dealing with, what would be your comment there?
Penny Zenker
I guess it would be to check in what's our relationship with uncertainty. Because it again, I have this filter, that it's all about focus, if we focus on the things that are uncertain, it might make us anxious, but at the same time, when there are things that are uncertain, there are also things that are certain. So we need to have that balance, what are we certain of, we can ask ourselves that question in times of, of challenge, what are we certain of our you know, and get clear on how we can approach this based on the things that we are certain of so for instance, if if we have a culture, if we're talking about an organization, and we've fostered a culture of community, well, we can work together and collaborate and be a community as we work through this. And that can give you stability, even though everything around you is uncertain. Your your basis is certain, right? So we have to in one way, right? That's what a reset mindset does is it helps you to get, you know, get perspective on that change is not a bad thing. Uncertainty is not a bad thing. And so what's our relationship with it? How could we see this as an opportunity where ask ourselves question, well, how might we use this to create a greater impact to double our business right and create some really incredible goals? Look at what we did through the pandemic, look at the medical field and how much it changed. For the better right we have now have telemedicine that is now more available to to people who maybe can't get to the doctor you know, for some of the things that they look at
Greg Voisen
you love what you and I are doing right now that's a great example of what happened during the during COVID I mean these these shows were not being video they were audio and then zoom came along and if people really just looked at it, okay, yes, we had some services prior but the reality is zoom was one of the companies that brought this to to light to actually be able to do this for the common person right we were you Using other things before, but so, you know, how does the concept of dynamic reassessment, you call it reassessment play a role in maintaining the reset mindset? And why is this crucial for long term success? Because, you know, the reset mindset, we've actually got to learn how to use it. But we also want this to be playing a role in our long term success.
Penny Zenker
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, think of it like this. So dynamic reassessment is just taking advantage of real time feedback. Right. And so if things are changing, and there's more uncertainty, then we need to shorten the periods of time that we choose to, to listen and engage and evaluate and reflect on that feedback. And it goes back to your point of we don't have the time. So there's an important reflection points that just aren't happening when they need to happen. Because they're being pushed off. But those reflection points are what keep us on target. Like if we're going really fast in the wrong direction. That is going to cost us more time, money and energy to to redirect when we've already gotten down far along the path. Right. So so the more often that we can have conversations with our employees to understand what what's working and what's not working, what's engaging them, what's not engaging them? How do we redefine these these roles that might be changing over time, we need to check in more often. And that's the idea of the dynamic reassessment. And it's same thing in the marketplace behaviors are changing. So we don't want to wait and be left behind. We need to be able to stay on top of the different changing behaviors and even ask ourselves new questions to challenge the marketplace, in terms of well, who's not buying today? And why are they not buying for example, right? And there could be a whole marketplace. Just like Uber came up with a who's not who's not buying, you know, taxi service or whatnot that would like to have that type of service? And how do we do this in a different way. So we don't take on as much risk, right? We don't own the vehicles. It's the largest transportation company in the world that doesn't own a single vehicle. Oh, that's, that's brilliant model.
Greg Voisen
And now they're delivering our food.
Penny Zenker
Right? And then and then it this business model then was taken over into a lot of different areas. So but it's from the questions that they asked, and they challenged the marketplace. And, and because of that they came up with new models, and that is how we survive and thrive in the future is to dynamically reassess our marketplace, our processes and our leadership strategies.
Greg Voisen
Well, and I think what goes along with this penny is that look, every one whether it's personally or professional, we have times in our life where we're stuck. Okay, let's just face it, I've been stuck, you've been stuck. Everybody gets stuck. It's almost like it feels like we're stuck in the mud. And it it's like 1000 pounds to move one leg just to get moving. And how does the reset mindset when somebody is struggling with this help them to actually get unstuck? I mean, even in the title here, it says, you know how to get unstuck focus on what focus on what matters most and reach your goals faster. You know, I, we've had Brian Tracy on here recently, he has like V goal guy, right? So the question is, is okay, yeah, we all have goals. But I know one of the things that gets you stuck, is if you're attached to it happening in a certain way. That's an attachment to the goal. Goals don't always happen the way you expect them to happen. It's great to have goals, it's great to set them but where you get disappointed is when you've attached to something so much. And that's how you get stuck is being attached. Any comments?
Penny Zenker
Yeah, for sure attachments and write those expectations of this is the way it should be. Or I have to do it this way. So absolutely. We get stuck in that one way of thinking that it has to be like this. And and that keeps us from being more creative to see other ways to do things and and to get out of that space. You know, there's so many Different strategies to get unstuck. And part of it is what we tell ourselves, right? Those expectations turn into also, you know, I can't do that, you know, that's, you know, whatever, whatever the language is, that's maybe holding somebody back, I'm not good enough. And maybe they don't even know that that's the language. But if you catch yourself, so a real simple strategy is like, if you catch yourself repeating the same types of things, like I hear myself lately, and I'm a professional noticer. That's what I do. And that's where the reset mindset gives you that heightened awareness to be noticing your language, noticing your interactions looking for those signals. And I've noticed that I've been saying a lot, I don't have the time because I've bitten off a little bit more than I can chew with, with my book coming out and engagements and, and and right, we all have a lot of different plates in the air. And so I'm recognizing that and so we can just every time you hear yourself, say it, snap your fingers, right, we want to break that pattern that we're just repeating. So when we break that pattern, eventually just like a CD that would play for those of you who remember CDs, you know, they would if you scratched it over and over again, then it wouldn't play anymore. And so, you know, that's the idea that we can break a pattern and then replace it with something else, right? Wait a minute, I choose, you know, I choose not to do this over that. It's not that I can't do this, it's that I've made this a higher priority. Maybe I need to step back and check on my priorities and what they really are.
Greg Voisen
Well, I also think, you know, you say your notice, or your I think one of the words I would use is I'm an observer. And I think when you take the 50,000 foot view of observing from the top down. I've said this so many times on my shows, and I got this through my degree in spiritual psychology. If you had a camera follow you all day long, and they videoed it. And you watched back the video, would you like what you saw? Right? And, and I think it's important for people in resetting their mindset to say, Hey, I just watched the video. And there was so much about that video that I was not happy with. And the question is, is how do I change it? What do I do to go about changing either that behavior, or that action? Or the thing that I did? Or I got emotional and I spouted off, but all of those things. So how can the reset mindset help individuals reframe? I love it. setbacks and failures to continue progressing toward there. I'm gonna say aspirations. Okay, so how does this reset mindset? Because you said, there's three simple steps Step back, get perspective, realign. Okay, so if I just kept that in my mantra, when this happened, could I just like literally go, Okay, this is my mantra, step back. Take a breath, yet perspective? Realign, is, would that be the secret?
Penny Zenker
I mean, I know it sounds ridiculously oversimplified, but that is the secret. Or that same process could happen with with a lot of different mantras. So let's say you're in a conflict with someone, maybe your mantra that is part of a reset mindset is just to assume positive intent that this person doesn't mean to harm me or upset me, there's a misunderstanding. And I just need to listen and ask questions and and keep the intensity down, right, believe that it's with positive intent. And what happens when I do that is, in that moment, I'm stepping back to create awareness in myself to say, hey, this isn't personal. Right? I'm giving it perspective to say, Okay, let's find out what's really going on here. And then let's realign with the most important thing, which is our relationship and get it back on track. Right. So those steps, you can remember those steps as the mantra or you can remember other mantras or statements or quotes or frameworks that you might use that actually go through those steps because they're more like a mental model. And there's lots of other cues that can happen that trigger that mental model. Does that make sense? Definitely.
Greg Voisen
And I want to point this out at this point, because you've created a course that people can take. I actually went there the other day, and there's video recordings of you. If you would speak about your core Because I really think that for people that are really want to get this, granted, you can get it through the book. But a lot of people are a little more auditory or kinesthetic, and they want to go through a course. Speak with us about that course and how the people can get it and what the cost is for the course.
Penny Zenker
Yeah, well, at the moment, the cost is the cost of the book. So when they buy the book, they'll get the course for free because it's not exactly the same. What's in the book is more of the introduction to what is a reset mindset? Why do we need it and basically understanding how it can be used, but then the course will go in a little bit more depth and supplement the book so that they can put it into practice. There's worksheets and examples and QR
Greg Voisen
codes in the back of this basically take them I know there's a couple of QR codes. Right. Right. Yeah, I'll just show my listeners. There they are. Okay. And so there's bonuses and other offers there. One of them also is the productivity zones. But they literally can get there through that correct? Yes,
Penny Zenker
yes, yeah. And also, when they go to the reset mindset.net, there's a place there where they can record the purchase ID number and then and then it will send them a link to, to the vote bonus. And I'm gonna
Greg Voisen
make a plug here because we all learn through spaced repetition. And we're working with Mark Hirschberg. Now, to get authors to do this, his brain bone Penny, is on brain bump. So if you don't have the brain bump app, and you're into kind of spaced repetition learning, which is like, Okay, I just want small little bite sized pieces, I don't have the ability to take this all at once. I think marks Hirsch Burke's idea is a brilliant idea. And to get actually pennies, quotes, and you can choose when you want to get on, like if you want to get one in the morning, three times a week, or you only want it once a week, you can choose all that, but definitely go to brain bump app.com. There, you can learn more. And you can learn more about pennies because pennies book is in there. The reset mindset is in there. So
Penny Zenker
can I share a quick story? Real quick story? Yeah,
Greg Voisen
we were gonna get to that next. So you're beating? No, go ahead. I want to hear the story. It's
Penny Zenker
it's, it's to your point of how do we reframe things. So I think you know, I talked about it, but not personally, right. So I was I was in a situation where I was working with this market research company, and I was on the executive team. And I was brought in at a time where there was a lot of change, and a lot of really big changes for the organization that was happening and the senior leadership. They didn't really accept me, the CEO brought me in and didn't really invite other senior leaders to be part of that selection process. And so there was a lot of infighting of people wanting to be CEO. So they didn't like somebody knew I was a woman in a male dominated society. I didn't know the the industry. I wasn't from Switzerland and didn't speak the language. So like I had all of these sorts of things against me. And it actually was a very toxic environment in the beginning. And you talked about how can we reframe things. I mean, I was very close to quitting, I was many times brought to tears in the way that I was treated, and the lack of respect and the challenges that we were facing, and I just felt alone. And there was a point when I was sitting in my car one day, and I was you know, I was already in knots. And I was just coming into the office. And I was in tears. And I said to myself, I have a choice to make. And I could quit, or I can be the change agent, because I can stop being the victim. And I can be an agent of change in this situation. And I can drive change, and I can focus on what's going to help me drive change, versus, you know, what's all against me, I had every reason to be upset and right and all of those things too. Fair enough, but that that wasn't going to get me anywhere. And it certainly wasn't gonna get the organization anywhere. So I chose to be a change agent. And with that shift in my mindset, I was able to shift others mindsets. So it you know, that's how we in an organization. It's one person at a time, one reset moment at a time that can help us to shift ourselves and then shift others so that we can work to the greater good.
Greg Voisen
Well, you point out an important point here and It's really around the energy that you carry as an individual, into an organization into a room into an environment. As a public speaker, you realize this, because it's about reading your audience. It's about what your audience needs and wants, right? And a really good speaker like yourself, who's been on TEDx who's done numerous talk to 1000s of people, you understand that the minute you get up on stage, and you read your audience, and the energy that you carry, is so extremely important for people to actually be receptive to your message to be receptive of Penny Zucker. It's just that's the way it is, right? Otherwise, I'm gonna sit here like this and go, No, I don't want to listen to this lady, because she doesn't have anything to say that I want to hear. So if you were to leave our listeners today, with as the reset mindset is kind of evolving, right? We've talked about how this can evolve for people. And what do you see, as far as some of the maybe future trends do you anticipate in the field of personal growth and organizational development, because like, this is your field, this is you're actually giving people through your productivity book. And through the reset mindset book, these two books plush, your course, you're really trying to get people to open up their energy fields to be more receptive. And understand there are other perspectives, right? Get perspective, yours isn't the only perspective. Now, while that may sound super simple, the reality is we have all kinds of biases. Every day, we have blind spots, we have biases, you know, I could think about penny this way. Because, you know, she wears her earrings, the whatever way she wears them, whatever. And so what do you what do you see happening? Where do you see this trending, because you're on the bleeding edge of it?
Penny Zenker
Well, you know, I see distraction, if we allow it, distractions are only going to increase because of the change. And because of all the information that's available to us, I also think, with the growth and exponential change that's going to happen through technology and AI, that we might be looking at. People being more empathetic and more complacent, you know, that will be done, you know, by by AI. And, and it is the way that it is and there's nothing I can do about it. So I see a big risk in those areas. And, and that's exactly where we need to, to have a reset mindset understanding that we have to take back control and of the things that we can control and let go of the things that we can't bring our creativity so that we can maximize the technology that's available, going forward so that we can create new roles that are going to lead to greater impact and, and just be able to deal with, you know, they say that 75% I think was Harvard Business Review 75% of change management efforts fail, right, and that change is becoming exponential. So we need to shift into a reset mindset so that we as individuals, and also leaders can be able to dance with the change as it as it comes about.
Greg Voisen
Well, and that's a really good point you make 75% of change management actually fail. And in my humble opinion, they fail because they get too complex. I think simplicity. You know, we see people I saw CBS Sunday Morning, I was watching just this last Sunday, and this couple moved from the busy city to this island in Maine, and there's only 50 people on the island, right? Only 50 people, right? And the kids are going to a school house where there's only three people in the school in the in the class in the class, right? And so it gives you an idea that that's pretty radical. minimalism and simplicity. I do agree. And they've given up their Starbucks, as they said, for living on this little island in Maine, but they said it is the best thing they ever did for their kids in themselves. And I think we're in a global change at this point where we're all seeking something. Again, that story is maybe a little bit too radical. You aren't going to do that. But here's what I would say and I want to see if you confer concur. take that time to go do some meditation every morning or a walk with the dog. Don't put your headset on or take your iPhone with you. Leave it at home so you can just smell the roses along the way. little simple things. Have gratitude that you even woke up That morning, and had an opportunity to go walk out in the woods or walk with your dogs or walk along the beach. But to me, it's those simple little moments, every one of them every day, like what you're saying, that's the reset mindset. All of those things are actually resets. There. It's Mike, hey, I'm sitting here doing a podcast after you, I want to get up and reset, right? Because I've been doing this all morning already. And I would say to everyone else, go reset right after this podcast empty, listen to it. Right. Any? You want to leave our listeners with any other words? Penny?
Penny Zenker
Yeah, maybe just to build on what you said is those resets are what help us to break down the complexity. Right, they bring us back into the simplicity of the bigger picture and what's really important and how to center ourselves and be present and, and future minded. Right, not just present, but also future minded and intentional. And yeah, so you know, take take those moments take the time to reflect, take the time to be more intentional. I think that is the absolute key for our future, is this reassessment helps us to be more intentional and brings us back in alignment with our goals, our values and our intentions.
Greg Voisen
Well, Penny, I love what your message is all about. I love you. Thank you for being here on Inside personal growth. And for all of my listeners. The book is the reset mindset. My fingers are on it. Penny Ziggler Zikr. Is that how you say it? Am I saying it right? Her Zenker definitely go out, look at her website, we'll put a link to the website. Also, when you buy this book for free, you basically can take this QR code and go and get this great course that she's got. And she's got it broken down. I love how she did it. Because not any one little module is that long. They're all really short little modules. I was in there just the other day going through them. One thing she did do is you can't cheat. You have to go through each one to get to the next one. And I think that's brilliant, because I was trying to push forward.
Penny Zenker
So I might change that because people do want to be flexible. So I'm getting feedback on that about how people how people are engaging with it. Yeah,
Greg Voisen
Well, I thought it was great. And I just want to thank you for doing it. And thank you for inviting me into it. Thanks for being on and say personal growth. Namaste to you to have a wonderful, beautiful day.
Penny Zenker
Thank you.
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Inside Personal Growth with Greg Voisen · Podcast 1139: The Imposter Lies Within with Sheryl AnjanetteJoining us this episode is Sheryl Anjanette, an accomplished entrepreneur and author of The Imposter Lies Within: Silence Your Inner Critic, Tame Your Fear, Unleash Your Badassery. Sheryl’s expertise in business, mindset, and wellness offers a unique perspective on understanding and overcoming imposter syndrome.
Defining Imposter Syndrome
Sheryl Anjanette begins by defining imposter syndrome as a psychological pattern where individuals feel inadequate despite evident accomplishments. This disconnect often leads to feelings of fraudulence, where one might think, “I’ll never be able to do it again,” despite past successes. Understanding this pattern is crucial for addressing the underlying issues.
Sheryl’s Personal Journey
Sheryl shares her personal journey of dealing with imposter syndrome. Despite her extensive experience and certifications in various fields, she struggled with feelings of inadequacy. It was through deep introspection and advanced training in hypnotherapy, cognitive behavioral neuroscience, and other disciplines that she began to understand and address these feelings. Her journey underscores the importance of recognizing and working through imposter syndrome to achieve personal and professional fulfillment.
Myths and Misunderstandings
One major myth Sheryl debunks is the notion that simply feeling the fear and doing it anyway will cure imposter syndrome. While pushing through fear is part of the process, it is not a comprehensive solution. Another damaging myth is the idea that imposter syndrome is normal and something one just has to live with. Sheryl emphasizes that while common, it is not something that should be accepted as a permanent condition.
Archetypes of Imposter Syndrome
Sheryl introduces seven archetypes of imposter syndrome: the Perfectionist, the Lone Ranger, the People Pleaser, the Savior, the Superhero, the Master, and the Prodigy. Understanding which archetype you align with can provide insight into your specific patterns and help you develop strategies to overcome them. For instance, the Perfectionist ties their self-worth to their accomplishments’ quality, while the Lone Ranger feels they must do everything alone to avoid being exposed as inadequate.
Role of the Subconscious Mind
The subconscious mind plays a significant role in perpetuating imposter syndrome. Sheryl explains that many of our beliefs and behaviors are programmed early in life and become ingrained over time. Techniques such as hypnotherapy can help reprogram these subconscious beliefs, allowing individuals to break free from the cycle of self-doubt and inadequacy.
Moving Forward
Sheryl’s insights provide a valuable framework for understanding and overcoming imposter syndrome. By recognizing the patterns and myths associated with it, identifying personal archetypes, and addressing subconscious beliefs, individuals can begin to silence their inner critic and unleash their true potential.
For those looking to delve deeper into this topic, Sheryl’s book, The Imposter Lies Within, offers practical tools and exercises to help readers on their journey to self-acceptance and empowerment. And you may learn more about Sheryl by visiting her website.
You may also refer to the transcripts below for the full transciption (not edited) of the interview.
Interview Transcipt -Not EditedEmailDownloadNew TabGreg Voisen
Welcome back to Inside personal growth. All of my listeners know who I am. But the lovely woman on the other side of the screen is Sheryl Anjanette. Day and she lives in Rancho Santa Fe, California, which is the hop skip and a jump from Encinitas where we record this podcast from. Good day to you Sheryl, how you doing? Good. Hi,
Sheryl Anjanette
Good. Hi, great. Good to be here.
Greg Voisen
It's good to have you on the show. Finally, and for all my listeners. I don't always get to meet my authors in person. But actually, Sheryl and I got to have lunch, which was really nice. And here's the book. You can actually see it on her desk right by her. You can see it there. This book is really The Impostor Lies Within: Silence Your Inner Critic, Tame Your Fear, Unleash Your Badassery. And Sheryl is the person that can speak with you about this. I'm going to let our listeners know Sheryl. A little bit about your background. And for all my listeners, you can go to sherylanjanette.com to learn more about her and more about the book. And she also is quite an entrepreneur too. She has more than 30 years of business experience as an accomplished entrepreneur and senior executive. She's the founder and CO engineered a wellness offering business and mindset programs for individuals and organizations through on site training, speaking and online learning in areas of impostor syndrome burnout and peak performance. She holds certifications across multiple business and mindset disciplines that are essential to individual and organizational health. These advanced trainings include cognitive behavioral neuroscience, integrative hypnotherapy, Neuro Linguistic Programming, clinical stress, anxiety and self regulation, strategy and human performance improvement. As a key thought leader in this area she speaks she shares her message with organizations globally on again for my listeners, here's the book. Well, this is a great place for us to shock start and that is for you. I think many people hear this word the imposter syndrome. They don't always know what it means. Why is it people important for people to recognize this inside of themselves and really the imposter syndrome?
Sheryl Anjanette
Yeah, I think it's always really helpful when we're having behaviors. We're having symptoms and things and we don't know where they're coming from. And when we can understand it, it's like somebody having a diagnosis, right? If you're going around and you're feeling really lousy, you're having trouble getting out of bed or that stomachache that just doesn't go away. If you have a diagnosis, you know what it is, then you can do something about it. And I think a lot of us that I spent most of my decades really of my life, walking around with all of these symptoms and not having a name for it. And not understanding what it really is because, you know, impostor syndrome, there are a lot of misunderstandings about what it is and I get into the myths a lot but you know, just not understanding what it actually is and that throws people off and they start going off in the wrong direction in their healing. And to really get to that healing, you need to be on the right path.
Greg Voisen
So, so you've had your own personal journey, like you're explaining and most authors do when they write books around topics, right? It's like this. I'm passionate about this. I want the world to know what was your personal journey and overcoming impostor syndrome and what are the key turning points for you? And I say overcoming and I'm gonna use that word, kind of lightly. I think it's really more about identifying, right what it is that we're doing, and then working to release that. So because you're grounded in all of these great things like neuro linguistic programming, and hypnotherapy, we know the subconscious mind is a big element to this. So I'd love to have you address that with the listeners.
Sheryl Anjanette
Sure. And if you don't mind, Greg, I'd love to just kind of go back and give impostor syndrome a definition.
Greg Voisen
Yeah, I'd love…
Sheryl Anjanette
to kind of get their heads around. So, imposter syndrome is a psychological pattern. Emphasis on pattern where someone feels like they're not good enough, despite evidence to the contrary. So it's patterned. It's habitual. And we don't always think about it this way. But it's not just our behaviors that become patterned our thoughts become patterns, our beliefs become habit and our self-talk becomes pattern. So there are all these layers going on. It became patterned on autopilot. And it's despite evidence to the contrary. So there's, there's evidence that we have all these accomplishments, and yet we still feel disconnected from them. So you can look at a piece of paper you can see your certifications or degrees. You get up and speak in front of an audience. You make these great movies, whatever your zone of genius says, you do it, you do it, you do it, you do it. And inside you feel it's like I know, I know. I know but I feel you feel like I'm a fraud. I'll never be able to do it again. I'm going to be found out someone's going to tap me on the shoulder at any moment and tell me that's not really you, you you're a fraud. You're a fake. And so it's just a cognitive dissonance. It's a disconnect. And it's really interesting because when we don't understand this, people often will say, it's just doubt. You're just having doubt and, or it's just your inner critic is being really harsh and all those things are part of it. It's like there's a collective of all these little things that happen. But you can have doubt and you can have a harsh inner critic, and still be able to be connected to your accomplishments and say, Yeah, I did it. I'm proud of that. And that's great. When you have that disconnect, when you feel like wildly inside like, Oh God, I'm not good enough. I'm not worthy. I'm not deserving nobody's gonna believe this. I don't care how many times I've done it. I don't care how many degrees I had. Everybody else in the room is better than me. I'll never live up to it. That's imposter syndrome view. And that's where the word comes. You're not actually an imposter. And nobody else thinks you're an impostor. It's that we feel like we are the imposter. Hence the name. The imposter lies within it lies within it's inside of us. And this is a liar. It's not true. You really do have those accomplishments. And so for me, I was in this journey of you know, I've been in the corporate world for decades, and I had done this really deep dive and for the past seven years I've been immersed in, in studying human emotions and behavior and I did a very advanced certification in hypnotherapy. So multiple types of hypnotherapy and cognitive behavioral neuroscience and clinical stress and anxiety and self regulation because I really, really like to help people and I was really doing this there was a deep dive and I was trying to help people get what they want. Which another word for that is manifestation, right? Get when I say I want this, but I'm not getting there. And I was working with groups and individuals and I was they were all saying, I'm doing all the things why isn't it working? And then I discovered Oh, this imposter syndrome. And I started to really look at it closely and I thought you know what, that's an umbrella term. For all the read things that happen. They get us throw us off track to getting what it is we're really well
Greg Voisen
I think that that inner critic is probably one of the biggest ones. I mean, most people that go through life, whether it will say this, they have an adverse childhood experience, or maybe it wasn't even adverse, but it was like, Hey, you were always supposed to be the straight A student. That's what we wanted. You are supposed to be the doctor. You are supposed to become the teacher. And when they did or they didn't, I've spoken with many who actually attained all those degrees, and at the same time, still live with the imposter syndrome. And then I've seen people who haven't attained to any of that and are living with the imposter syndrome as well because they didn't live up to those expectations. But in your book, you debunk debunk several myths about the imposter syndrome. Which myth do you find is the most pervasive and damaging and if so, why?
Sheryl Anjanette
Well, I talked about eight myths. If you don't mind, I'm gonna give you two. It's hard one. It's feel that fear and do it anyway, is the cure for impostor syndrome. Of course, you're afraid but just do the thing. And then you will, you'll be fine. And the imposter goes away, and you're good. Now, something like 85% of the population experiences impostor syndrome, and you're talking about very accomplished people like Albert Einstein, Tina Fey, Sheryl Sandberg, you know, Steve Martin, the list goes on and on and you know, seven or eight out of 10 people around you and depending on what your profession is, maybe more. And so if that were true, if you could just feel the fear and do it anyway. Do you think this people would still be experiencing impostor syndrome? No. They've got the fear. They push through. They've done it anyway. You have these great accomplishments. So that's, that's definitely part of the puzzle. That's part of getting to the point where you can overcome impostor syndrome. You do need to learn how to push through that fear. It's just not the cure, if that makes sense. And that can be damaging because people will say, and I've had people say this to me, Oh, I'm so relieved that you told me that Sheryl because I've felt the fear I did it anyway, I'm still experiencing this and I was told I'm not supposed to be experiencing anymore. And then they suppress that emotion and you know, it happens to suppressed emotions, right? Calm their energy in motion, and they come out in other ways. And I would say the second myth that I think is really important to debunk is it's just normal. Everyone has it, you just have to live with it. And if you really look at what the experience of impostor syndrome is, rumination, feeling less than playing small, you know, anxiety burnout. Why would we want to normalize that? Why would we want to say you just have to live with it. That's where it got really stubborn. And if 85% of people experience imposter syndrome, what does that tell me? It tells me it's very common, but there are 15% of the population that don't. So that means I want to be one of the 15% Why do I have to be part of the 85%? And that's what I sought out, sought out and said, Okay, well, we have to get to the root of this. There's stuff going on. We can't just cope. Because we'll be coping until we're 80 or 90 years old.
Greg Voisen
That's no question for you. You know, I know that many people. There's all this area around self compassion and self care. Yes. And one of the things that I think misses in most people who probably have this impostor syndrome, is this ability to self nurture self care, compassion for themselves, right? Because we're talking about well, I can give compassion to others. Well, are you giving the same compassion to yourself? And so you actually used I liked the fact that you pointed out those two debunked myths. But you also described different archetypes of imposter syndrome in the book. And I was wondering if you could elaborate on the archetypes now identifying with one could really help one of our listeners understand their impostor feelings better and how they might be able to use that archetype description to actually overcome it.
Sheryl Anjanette
Absolutely, Greg, happy to you know, I put together this framework because I think that it's not meant to label anyone. But it's this idea of having better insight into us. We can understand in broad terms, what impostor syndrome is, but if we don't see how it's affecting us in personally, each one of us differently, how do we do something about it? We're each on our own journey. We've had different experiences. We give different meaning to those experiences, those become our beliefs and those become our reality. And so I put this framework together and it's just a way for people to kind of see within themselves the behaviors, and then we can work back and see what the root causes. Now, if anybody's listening to this, there are seven of them. And you say, Oh, my God, I have more than one or I have three or I'm all seven. FYI. I had all seven. I was experiencing ever say I really have I don't have anything I experienced all seven. I say that because experience is so much easier to get over, right than something we have. I was experiencing all seven of these and so many of my clients and people on my panels in my groups have experienced all seven so nothing wrong with you. It's just a way for you to understand. So first, there's the perfectionist and I could go deep on any one of these but I'm going to give you the surface, the perfectionist and there's the self critical perfectionist then there's the other critical perfectionist and there's the cultural perfectionist where it comes from athletics versus but they see their value through their accomplishments and the quality of those accomplishments. Yeah, that's their value. Remember, we're always talking about impostor syndrome. It's you know, am I good enough? Am I worthy? Am I deserving? It's all about that value. Then the second one is the Lone Ranger and the Lone Ranger feels like they need to go it alone. They need to do everything by themselves. And part of that is they feel like if they ask someone for help, They're gonna see that they're not good enough to do it on their own. So there's feeling of I'm just gonna get in there and do it myself. There's more to that story, but that's a big one. There's the people pleaser, the people feel pleaser their feeling of pleasing is really connected to abandonment and rejected they feel like they're worth isn't pleasing everyone and maybe if they're very good and very nice and please everyone, they won't be abandoned or rejected. The fourth is this. and the Savior sees their work through fixing the other people or fixing problems. They need to be needed, which is much like the people pleaser. Again, they need to be needed because they fear abandonment and rejection. There's the superhero. So as superheroes a common archetype, we hear about it. They see their work through superhuman feats, you know, their biggest fear is being vulnerable or perceived as weak. And then the sixth is the Master the Master never feels good enough. They just need one more degree, one more certification to be quote unquote good enough. So their life is always achieving the next thing to be good enough a lot of comparison there. And then there's one that you may not have heard about or thought about, it's the Prodigy. The Prodigy is the archetype that feels like they need to go from zero to hero or beginner to mastery immediately. You know, we all have those zones of genius. There's things that we're able to master very quickly, very easily. And so we we kind of go into this comfort space, because we're, we get really good really fast, and then we get the accolades for that. And for the Prodigy, they want to stick in their comfort zone because that area that's kind of messy where you're on that learning curve, and you're learning something and you fall back and maybe you fail a little bit they're so terrified of being found out as not good enough. Seven.
Greg Voisen
Well, the good thing about you articulating those seven is that I think many of the listeners can relate to like you said, Well if not one or two, maybe all seven, you know, because at certain points in our life, we're going to take on potentially a different archetype, depending on where we are. And so I would say hey, get the book, everybody. Here it is. There's a copy of the book again. Because all of those archetypes are there. Plus she gives you opportunities by asking questions at the end of these chapters to kind of reflect and learn more. Now, you we talked earlier when I first said hey, the subconscious mind how does the subconscious mind play a role in the imposter syndrome? We know people will say, Well, I know the ego. You know, a lot of people use ego as edging God out. And I think sometimes when people become more spiritual in nature, they actually learn to calm these actual impostor syndrome, wherever it is coming from. So I'd like you to address the role of the subconscious mind and what strategies do you recommend for addressing subconscious beliefs? That have been embedded in the subconscious mind? And as you said earlier, they kind of continue to play out, they go over and over and over and over again, and people can't seem to get out of that loop. It's like, What What's that movie The Groundhog's Day? Yes. You know, it's Groundhog's Day again, but here it comes again. Right. So tell us if you would some of the ways you have to actually jolt it and change it. I mean, one of them is hypnosis. I literally had a hypnotherapy session on Sunday. Right. And so the point is, is I recognize that when somebody's professional can go in and make suggestions to reprogram that because the the three types which you talk about are, you know, the subconscious, the conscious and the unconscious. Right. And the superconscious Yeah, right. So it's, you've got this array and I think a lot of people understand it, they just don't know how it works. Yeah.
Sheryl Anjanette
Yeah, you know, this kind of goes into I've done a lot of work with the subconscious mind. Of course, being a Hypnotherapist. And you know, what happens with impostor syndrome is people tend to focus on what they can see what they're conscious that and that becomes about 10% of our consciousness is in the conscious what we call the conscious mind and 90% is in the subconscious and we put it in this Forget it, set it and forget it kind of mode for efficiency. And so what happens is we become programmed you notice like you program your computer, we can become programmed early on through our experiences and our beliefs and thoughts. That we have thoughts that others have, they get reinforced, and they kind of get set into our mind and they're usually triggered or tied to an initiating event. You know, it's kind of we call this a root cause. And so with the subconscious mind what the subconscious mind is, let's say you have an you're, you're a very young child and you have an experience and maybe it's not even an adverse experience. It's just it's not so much the experience that we have, but the meaning we give that to that experience at that age and that stage, we set it in in our mind is programmed to make ourselves right. So now our mind is actively looking and something has happened to we say OGC I'm really not good enough. And we start to layer and layer and layer. Oh, you see, nobody really cares what I have to say and we layer a layer and layer or you see, I don't have value, and I'm not worthy and we layer and layer there. And we hyper focus on those areas. And we tend to minimize the proof that evidence that we aren't good enough as we mature. And so you
Greg Voisen
said as a child and I want to go back to that because we're so impressionable at those ages, right? Of what actually happens in our life and I and I'm gonna use a quick little anecdote story because I think this might help the listeners know when I was around eight years old, I remember being in my kitchen and my father was extremely angry with my mother. And it got into a quite a fight in the sense that he actually pushed her up against the wall. And I did not want to see that happening. So I decided to get in between my father and my mother, because I was just trying to protect my mother. So this is probably a pretty typical thing that I think many young men could relate to. I did. My father got so angry with me. I'll get to the point of this story in a second that he picked me up and he was very strong and he shoved me against the wall. And he said, Don't you ever come in between an argument between myself and mom, and I literally fell to the floor now. moral to the story from that day forward, I decided to avoid conflict. Okay, so whenever conflict was in my life, I moved to a different direction, because I just didn't like it because I thought the consequence of it was so painful because it was extremely painful. So you think, look, I tell that story, not because I want you to just, you know, feel sorry for me or anything. I tell it because it's really truly when you're eight years old and something like that happens. It's really hard to get that out of your subconscious. It's really hard to get that out of your consciousness.
Sheryl Anjanette
He gets really embedded in there. Great. Thank you for sharing. By the way. You know, just this morning, I did a session with somebody and we went back to when he was four years old. He kept saying I want to go back to when I was 1717. But I knew there was a fragment that went further back and I've gone back as far as two years old, but usually it's somewhere between four and six that people's memory goes and these are very, very powerful because when you're very young, you're your nonverbal can't express those emotions. There's deer just all squishy feeling and emotion. And our subconscious is the seat of our emotions and it does drive the bus. It does drive the bus. So when I was looking at imposter syndrome, and I'm seeing all these great people doing this work here, and working with all these amazing coping techniques and what have you, I thought something's still missing here because they're showing people how to cope better, but they're not showing people how to overcome impostor syndrome. I know that's a bold statement, but I thought what we really need is to reprogram and repattern inside out is the reprogramming let's get to those root cause issues. Let's remodel those receptors. And then we need to repattern the mind because yes, this takes a little bit longer than may have to be done in simultaneity. However, the mind the brain does get pattern we do get pattern with our not just our behaviors that our beliefs thought self talk, and so we need to actually do a focus conscious re patterning. It's really a process that is doable. That's the hope I give. And so that's my holistic approach. Inside Out outside in working with the subconscious mind understanding how powerful it is, and that it is your best friend. It wants you to succeed. It wants to give you whatever you want, as long as you can communicate what that is and we just don't communicate clearly.
Greg Voisen
So you give the readers in the book, The you include these exercises to help the reader and maybe exercises is a good word is a good word. And the point is is I think free programming to help the readers overcome the imposter syndrome. I'd like for you to share two of the exercise that you think the listeners listening today could actually apply to reprogram and to practice, right? Yes, they're their exercises, right? So it's like you're trying to build a muscle or the muscle is the brain. We're trying to reprogram the brain. Yes to actually transmute these particular elements of our imposter syndrome.
Sheryl Anjanette
Yeah, yeah. By the way, in the book, it takes you through four distinct phases. So you're gonna go from awareness. We don't know what we don't know even when we think we do to insight that was sort of the archetypes the idea of really understanding how it affects you. And now we're kind of in the alignment phase. And by the end there are exercises throughout so there are 20 exercises through the book and in the alignment piece, which is what you're talking about. It's doing these exercises now doing the reprogramming is always going to be easier when you're working with someone so if you can have a trained hypnotherapist a really good one. You can always I don't recommend other people I do that I do the work but you can probably find people to recommend to you as well. That's always helpful to have a guide. But if not getting into kind of a deep guided meditation is very helpful. And trust yourself. Ask your subconscious mind to take you back. First you want to set the ground rules and that is that you never go into a trauma. I do not believe that you ever need to relive a trauma so you ask your subconscious mind to take you before or after trauma, never in a trauma. And if you see it you're seeing it like a movie. So it's on the screen and you are safe. You are okay. You will be fine and you tell yourself that and if you need a guided meditation for it, that's fine. But if you're going to do this on your own, you don't need to go into that you're past it, you're done with it. Now you're just kind of understanding it with your cognitive mind, not your emotional mind. That's really important. And then you just get really quiet with yourself and trust your subconscious to take yourself back and ask for an early stage as a root cause why do I feel not good enough? back as early as you can, and talk to that child you know, you can have a conversation. Usually children didn't get something they needed like nurturing or kindness, you know, or just a listening generous here. Or they got something they should have got, like abuse or neglect. And so you just give that child what they need it. You're the adult now you get to do that. You talk to them like you their mother or their father or their big brother, big sister or whoever that is that they needed and ask them what they needed. And just listen to them. You know, and that's the reprogramming the that's a very just once.
Greg Voisen
One of the things that I think you don't want to do is I'm just going to make a comment has nothing to do with it is you certainly don't want to carry around regret or anger or frustration for what happens. So you've got to find a way as you're saying, This isn't past life regression. This is just regression back to a point where you can remember these things, not the trauma, as you said, but the actual things before and afterwards and the healing comes. And I think in the acceptance of that versus the resistance to it. Right. So I think for a long time. I know for me personally, I had resistance to it, not acceptance of it. Right. So if there was an event that I didn't like, I was like resisting. Right? And I know that all of those were good for me, right? It's like these are all learning lessons. But you only know these when you as you said become aware you and your steps aware that they're there for a reason. Right? There's a reason for all of these things. There's a reason for me getting in between my mom and my dad and me going through this conflict where I didn't want to get involved with conflict. So I just tell the listeners that are listening now. It's you have to learn how to accept it.
Sheryl Anjanette
Yes, you know what's kind of like the analogy would be you have a dark closet and you're afraid you're afraid there's monsters in the closet and then when you turn on the light or shine a flashlight and you see it's just close, there's nothing else there maybe some toys, you're good. And it's the same thing with our subconscious mind. You didn't feel that fear. You didn't want to turn the other way. You're not gonna want to go there. But when you do and we can not go into into any adverse experiences that be traumatic, but just looking at it and shining the light. You'll see it's not that bad. Right? What happens is you're able to express those heavy emotions and get rid of that. Release them and you'll feel lighter and the awareness starts to grow. Then you heal and you observe
Greg Voisen
What would you say are some of the long term strategies for maintaining an impostor free..
Sheryl Anjanette
Oh, this is the best part..
Greg Voisen
After initially overcoming these feelings? I mean, what I mean, it's one thing to talk about these things. It's another thing for us to embed them in our DNA for it to become part of us, and for us to live it and believe it and I would say that it becomes our truth. Right so this is the truth for me. What is the new big T, as I say, in my life? What are some of these long term strategies?
Sheryl Anjanette
Yeah, so the most important thing I'm going to tell you today is this. There's a term I coined it's chapter five in my book called The healthy self. And I want you to understand what you don't think of a circle here in the middle, right? And outside that the circle is what we're going to call maladaptive territory, and this circle is your healthy zone. And the reason it's a circle and not a dot. A big spot is because we're dynamic beings we're meant to feel and experience and we need some movement and growth. But we need to be able to be adaptive in that. So fear is our friend we need fear keeps us safe. If we had no fear we'd run into the lions den. Not goodly jump off a cliff, right? Not good. without a parachute, let's say. So we need fear. We need to help downside to certain vessel we need comparison. How do we know who we are? We don't know who we're not. Sometimes we are not good enough. We understand that mentally. So I'm not a good enough neurosurgeon to cut into your brain. In fact, I'm not a neurosurgeon at all. So if he asked me to do brain surgery on you, I would say I'm not right. I'm always good enough. I'm not good enough for certain things.
Greg Voisen
Well, you're doing weird surgery on people without using instruments, right? It's not like you're cutting or you're probing. You're probing verbally your program with great questions, but you are a brain surgeon in the degree that you get people to to look at it in a different way. And that is brain surgery. Because most people don't need brain surgery, meaning physical surgery. They need emotional brain surgery. Yeah, and you're the emotional brain surgeon.
Sheryl Anjanette
Yeah. Circuits reconnected. And so what happens is we become familiar and you know, we tend to see familiarity and safety as the same thing. So something is very familiar, even if it's not safe. Our mind has this same it kind of goes back to those caveman days, right? We tried to stay safe. Our mind wants to keep us safe. And so if we're out here in maladaptive territory, it's become so familiar. We tend to want to stick there. And first thing we need to do is understand what is actually healthy with fear and what is it we need to get back into the zone and kind of get a feel for it, and say, This is not good, this kind of this kind of doubt that paralyzes me. That's a maladaptive doubt. But doubt in the health is out and says, Okay, wait, let's just check this guy out. Let's check this woman out. Let's check this opportunity out. I'm pretty sure it sounds really good. But they're saying, but I want to poke some holes and I want to learn some other perspectives. Maybe it's I'm not seeing everything that's helped you doubt, doubt or doubt that I can do something. Let's see. I've never done that thing before. I've never climbed Mount Everest. Maybe I think I can, but I doubt that I'm ready right now. That's healthy doubt. Maybe I need to do some training. So that's what healthy doubt is paralyzing doubt is where I go. I can't do that. If I never do that thing. And you literally are paralyzed. You don't. You don't move forward. You play small you pass up on opportunities. No, maybe you just need to get back into a healthy zone. And if it's something you really want to do, you get the resources you did the training, you get the knowledge, you bind a way to get yourself to that place. So first we have to do is get a sense of that. And then something will happen. You know, great. You'll get that call and somebody you love is ill or something terrible. Have you lost that claim your life that job? And it's like a pendulum you want to swing out to the maladaptive territory, but now you know how to work with your mind. You know how to work with some different coping strategies do you have and you just get it back into is oxygen is now. Now you know, and that's how you overcome impostor syndrome. Yeah, I'm gonna feel like oh, maybe I'm not good enough. But I'm gonna work with my mind. I'm gonna get myself into the healthy self.
Greg Voisen
Well, I think one of the things that you're saying and it's very clear, I was reflecting on a book called The uncertainty by Jonathan fields. And one of the things he said in a podcast was, you have to walk through uncertainty to get the opportunity. And I think, you know, there's lots of opportunity for people to identify what this is, and then walk through and mentally change their perspective and their mindset around this imposter syndrome. You don't have to live with this and Sheryl is the person that you can go to. And again, we'll put a link to the website for her and a link to the book on Amazon. I would encourage you all to get a copy of this because the way it's laid out, is very unique. I like the layout of the book. It's an easy read, it's not taught, and the practices and the exercises that you can get will really help you. So it's been a pleasure having you on inside personal growth. And being able to get some of your wisdom around the imposter that lies within us. And thank you for being a guest on the show. Any last words of wisdom you want to leave with the listeners?
Sheryl Anjanette
Thank you so much. Great. It's been fantastic. You know, I will just tell you by the way you do have that if you go to my website, there is an impostor syndrome. And there is also an audio book out, but I just want to say this and I want you to hear this wherever you are, whether you're in the car, whether you're sitting at your desk, wherever you are in your life right now, you are good enough. You are worthy. You. are deserving, your voice matters. And you matter.
Greg Voisen
That way to end it. Thank you very much. Appreciate that.
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Inside Personal Growth with Greg Voisen · Podcast 1138: Personal Development with Greg ReidJoining us this episode is returning guest Greg Reid, an acclaimed author and motivational speaker, to share his profound insights from his latest book, Personal Development. Greg’s been here in IPG during our 1094th episode for his book The Secret to Happiness.
Known for his contributions to over 150 books translated into 40 languages, Reid’s work has earned him a spot on the Las Vegas Strip Walk of Stars and recognition through the renowned Secret Knock conference.
Reid’s new book distills classic wisdom into bite-sized, easily digestible nuggets, perfectly suited for today’s fast-paced world. Inspired by legendary figures like Napoleon Hill and Earl Nightingale, Reid aims to offer readers the core essence of these influential teachings without the need for extensive reading.
Reid also delves into the importance of having a positive mental attitude (PMA), a concept championed by W. Clement Stone, and how it contrasts yet complements Napoleon Hill’s emphasis on having a definite major purpose. This balance of optimism and purpose is crucial for achieving success.
Moreover, the book addresses the impact of paradigm shifts on personal growth. Drawing inspiration from Wayne Dyer, Reid emphasizes the power of changing one’s perspective and surrounding oneself with diverse viewpoints to foster a broader understanding of the world.
Finally, Reid reflects on the concept of truth and contradiction, highlighting that multiple perspectives can coexist, each offering valuable insights. This understanding encourages an open-minded approach to life’s challenges and opportunities. So for those looking to deepen their personal development journey, Greg Reid’s Personal Development provides timeless wisdom wrapped in contemporary relevance. It’s a must-read for anyone seeking to unlock their potential and navigate the complexities of modern life with clarity and purpose.
Learn more about Greg and his works by visiting his website.
You may also refer to the transcripts below for the full transciption (not edited) of the interview.
Interview Transcipt -Not EditedEmailDownloadNew TabGreg Voisen
Well, this is Greg Voisen, the host of Inside Personal Growth. And everybody who listens to my show knows who I am Greg Reid, but Greg Reid is on the other side of the screen. He's been on before he was recently on and he lives in Carlsbad. And actually, I went to his house on Sunday to pick up the copy of this book. Pardon the little stickies in there. But that's some of the things that I want to ask Greg Gray, how're you doing today?
Greg Reid
So good, even I want to be me. And by the way, I got a brand new computer. So those little cells popping up, I think is my acknowledgments. I'm just too old to know how to turn it off.
Greg Voisen
So, my listeners won't know. We will. For my listeners, look, Greg is been quoted in over 150 books. Over 40 languages translated his work. He has even been awarded a placement on the Las Vegas Strip, Waka stars. Greg Reid is really all over. He's known for Secret Knock, you can see it behind him. There. If you want to learn more about Greg just go to www.gregreid r-e-i-d .com. There, you can learn more about him. And this is the book Personal Development, we're gonna put a link to it on Amazon. Well, Greg, look, you know, this is all the classics are in here. And when I say all the classics, I think you went back to all of the years of history you had as a person being influenced by all these great people that have crossed your life, you're kind of like me in that respect. I've, you know, everybody from Don green at Napoleon Hill Foundation, to Jim Rome to all of them. I've either met them or spent time with them. And they're wonderful people. What inspired you to kind of compile what you call this ultimate collection. And bring these insights to people and do it in a way I'm going to show people the inside of the book. This is not a hard read, folks, you can basically take this on an airplane and between here and Arizona, you would finish it. So why did you want to do this? Because you've written now, how many What is your this is your last one. You said? Yeah,
Greg Reid
I've been publishing 150 books, 45 languages, and all that good stuff. And this was kind of like my swan song. And I'm done doing solo books, I might co author a book in the future, do a multi author. But at the end of the day, this is my last solo one. And then I even left my name off the cover because it was all about the you know the content and not the guy who's bringing it to you. And what we did is we distilled the most classic legendary words of inspiration into modern little sound bites, so people could get that aha Golden Nugget without spending a lot of time. And what does that mean? Well, we're in the Instagram Tik Tok world where we got eight seconds. And I figured man, if we can explain what thinking Grow Rich is or as a man thinketh in one paragraph that will save him 300 pages of reading, but to get the core essence. So perhaps we'll expand it and read the entire book later.
Greg Voisen
The other thing is like we're in cross generational here, and there's so many generations that don't know many of these influencers that have been of our life. I'm not saying you're my age, but I'm saying that, you know, maybe you're close to my age, July 3, I turned 70. And I happen to have been influenced by a lot of the same people that are, by the way in this great book. And I don't mean influenced to the extent I mean, heavily influenced and one of them. I remember this story when I was in the financial services industry. Somebody told me the Russell Conwell story, and the acres of diamonds. And to this day, I still cite the acres of diamonds. Can you just for the people who don't have a clue who Russell Conwell was and acres of diamonds. You're doing about two pages here in this book, but eventually you can do it in about two minutes. Yeah, it was
Greg Reid
interesting. He gave that the talk to suppose it like 6000 people around the globe. And the concept was this there was this person who was sick and tired and sick and tired. He wanted fame and fortune. And he bought this little farm but nothing would grow on it. Every time he planted something nothing would ever come to life. So we tricked someone in the middle of the night to come by this acreage. And sure enough, they do and this young man goes out to find his his place in the world. And sure enough, wherever you go, there you are. Nothing goes his way. So much so that he ends up even committing suicide. It's a real uplifting read. But the guy back home, he's upset because he got tricked. And he bought this property in the middle of the night. And sure enough, same thing for him. Every time he planted something in the fields, nothing would grow because these little white shiny rocks kept popping up, and then finally realized there was acres and acres of diamonds and his own backyard. With the moral being sometimes we're always searching for things outside of ourselves to give us the glory and the, you know, the exposure and the opportunity yet sometimes and majority of the time is right beneath our feet. That's
Greg Voisen
a great allegory because you know, frequently in today's world of always on, always trying to do something new, whatever. If we just look underneath our feet, or really just look over our shoulder frequently, there's something there that actually we've missed, that could actually transform our life. And it's so true in so many ways. We would be remiss if we didn't actually include Napoleon Hill and Don green, both of our, I call him one of my favorite guys in the world, because he's just the sweetest, 80 year old guy or 80 something plus year old man, by the way, from our listeners, he runs the Napoleon Hill Foundation, and you jump in this book on page 16, about thinking Grow Rich, whatever the mind can conceive and believe it can achieve napoleon hill quote, and I know people, a lot of people go, Ah, yeah, I've heard all that shit. That sounds like the secret, right? But the reality is speak with us because Dr. Hill really did know what was going on here in our subconscious mind. Right, and how we programmed it. And then you went on, because you you added a few more pages. And you talked about the guy who founded combined insurance, which trying to remember his name, right? Stone W. Clement Stone, he also came up with Success Magazine. That was his magazine as well, because that was during the day of Earl Nightingale. Right? We all listen to Earl Nightingale tapes. So tell us about the how this has made an impact on you. Even at your ripe old age today, the whole thinking Grow Rich series.
Greg Reid
Yeah, so I'm 16 just for the you know, because we're talking about it. And I gotta tell you, I still skateboard every day, and live a pretty vibrant life, which is crazy, because when I was a kid 60 was out to pasture and now we're just getting going. Again, when it comes to thinking Grow Rich. For those of you who are new to my work, I was very fortunate to write the thinking Grow Rich series through the Napoleon Hill Foundation, Sharon Lechter. And I wrote Three Feet From Gold together, Bob Proctor and I wrote thoughts or things we did, you know, all these amazing things. But this is my favorite PMA. So w Clement Stone was a firm believer of positive mental attitude. And they had a friendly debate between Hill and was stone. And Hill said that the number one chief goal and aim for anyone to have was a definite major purpose. He said, If you got a purpose, you'll have success, you'll find it because you have your due north where Stone said no PMA positive mental attitude is the most important factor. And they kind of had this little squabble. But the concept was is that if you have a positive mental attitude and optimism, you'll constantly be searching for the solution, where pessimists will always be focusing on the negativity and the challenges ahead. And I think at the end of the day, there are both correct right there the day, I think that's why I'm connected because I was very fortunate to work with Don green, some amazing people.
Greg Voisen
You were blessed. And I've been blessed by Dawn and Dawn has been on the show six, maybe 10 times with books that he's written as a result of finding some of the archived materials from Napoleon Hill. And another guy I got the need and still talk with his daughter is Charlie tremendous Jones. They have a publishing business in Pennsylvania. And Charlie tremendous Jones used to come to all the financial services insurance, and he was always hyped up the guy was about as excited as they could be. Run it around the stage. But he reminded me as Zig Ziglar to write, it's just kind of like okay, and I love this quote, We are the same today as we'll be in five years. Besides two things, the people we meet in the books that we read, you don't you dedicated, like just one page to this. So if you would, your shining star of this I mean, the people you met and the books that you read and or the books that you write, speak with the listening audience out there today about how so imperative. You and I have been transformed as a result of this. I'm going to call it quote five from Charlie tremendous Jones.
Greg Reid
Yeah, Tony tremendous was a father figure to me. So you know, he was my greatest mentor. He's the one who opened the doors to the Napoleon Hill Foundation that started a lot of this stuff. So it's, he really was the, you know, the precursor for myself or my career and a lot of other people. It was also interesting is that the guy was very like you said, vibrant, and he said, He always did this one joke. And I tried to repeat it, and I never could do it, and I was so. So he would get on stage. And he would sit there and say my wife, Gloria and I, this month will be 27 years, Mary, and everyone would applaud you go, Wait a minute. Wait a minute. does. It wasn't that good. And so when I got married, my wife and I would go around and I try that same joke. My wife and I've been married two full years where it hasn't been good. And we'll go
Greg Reid
never translated.
Greg Voisen
Because you never had enough years behind your belt there.
Greg Reid
I know. It's great. So you got one Troy tremendous Jones because nobody gets to hear some of this stuff. So here's my one Troy tremendous Jones story. He called me at the end of his days, he was going through cancer, and he lost his voice and he was losing his eyesight. And he called me from Malaysia, and he was doing his final tour. And he goes, Greg, yeah, it goes. Great news. So what's up? Charlie goes, I lost my voice. No, I it's completely gone. I go, how's that great news, right? You're a motivational speaker. And he goes, no candidate. I go, what Charlie? He says, In Malaysia, I went to the microphone, I started whispering in it. And everyone finally stopped talking and listen to what I had to say. He goes, I should have lost my voice years ago.
Greg Voisen
And these are great stories. So for anybody who's listening now, who can relate to Greg and I, about these particular authors and thought leaders? You certainly will, can, you know, you'll relate. Now, we all love less than Wayne Dyer. Things are the way we think they are, because we think they are that way. And this is your little chapter on paradigm shift. And I'd like for you to comment because I didn't know Wayne personally, although I did go to many of his workshops through the Hay House. And we met but we weren't ever personal friends. But he did so much for so many people through his books. I go all the way back to that. What was that first book that he wrote in, he used to do the whole thing around the enchilada on PBS, you know, and get my books and I always bought everything that the guy had. So talk about paradigm shift, why it's so important for listeners out there,
Greg Reid
well keeps going down to that, quote, things are the way you think the art because you think they are that way. And I like to add something called T T E. And that means talk to everyone. Because everyone we meet will know something we don't know. And if you want to change your paradigm, what you believe to be true, surround yourself with people that might have a different perspective. And then all of a sudden, you see things from a different set of lens. And so for myself, I probably am going to be the worst politician in the world. Because I love when people change my mind sitting there saying, you know, the glass is half full, someone come up to me and show that it's half empty, boom, it's pure genius. And so for myself, the paradigm is what you agree and perceive to be your truth. And that is your truth until that paradigm has shifted.
Greg Voisen
Well, and again, we understand the power of the subconscious. And we know that whether you use a hypnotherapist or you use your own meditation, but if you can get rid of the negative self talk, which we've all of us have talked about, you can literally reprogram the mind to create almost anything you want in your life. How about I say not almost anything great, whatever it is that you want in your life, because it's it is the language that we put it in, that actually manifests itself into our life. And we know that you have a chapter here on truth in contradiction, I'm gonna hold up this page so people can kind of see this, just because someone says something doesn't mean it is correct. It simply means it's correct to them. And that at that moment in time, but today, you then put some quotes in here from the Bible from Abraham. Patience is a virtue. We're living in a world where truth is really just bizarre at this point. With with social media, being so influential and influential on people's truths, we know we're living in a divisive time we know we're living in weird times. But this isn't the first time this has ever occurred in this world, right? This is like we're thinking, oh God, we're the only ones ever done this. So go back to the Romans in the Colosseum right. The reality is is that what What would you tell people today who are feeling extremely confused by where they want to find their truth? And what's the best way for them to find it?
Greg Reid
All right, well, I'm not a psychologist. So I may preface with everyone for that one. So one of the guys who invented Chucky Cheese, shared of incredible thing he says, with enough examination, all truths become false. And it stuck with me. And it just just drove me nuts. I go with all self examination altered, and they start looking back again, when when you and I were a kid, Pluto was a planet. When you and I were in our 20s, you could catch AIDS from a toilet seat. Just three years ago, you can catch COVID By standing in line for proved to not be true. But we were taught that that was a fact is just what the general population agrees to be true at a chosen time. So at one time the world was flat. That was That's why Christopher Columbus went to go discover it was round. Everything was one way. So the fact of the matter is if we have an open mind to all that as possible, rather than just what we've been exposed to, you're like an open up the brand new paradigms and never be the same.
Greg Voisen
Yeah. And And again, as you said, Who was the guy from Chucky Cheese? I don't remember his name. I don't know. What was that? That wasn't Nolan Bushnell. Yeah, it was
Greg Reid
named Jean Landrum is the guy who created Chucky Cheese. And he was working at Atari for Nolan, and went in and asked for a million dollars to start the first ever one, no one gave it to him. So we'd go back and focus. And sure enough, it blew up. So Jean was actually the president of the first 100 stores until it blew up and became what it is, but no one's aware, I would financed it. But at the end of day was a genius, amazing idea.
Greg Voisen
I think Chucky, Steve cheese is still around somewhere. I don't know where it is. But the reality is, Atari isn't anymore. But that's only because it's been surpassed by so much other. But that's what people have to realize is like there's a place in time for everything, right. And as we progress through society, whether it's Steve Jobs in the iPhone, or the things that were originally, people were talking about Max the other day that Guy Kawasaki was on here. And he told the story about Vitsin in the board room with with Steve Jobs, and that they remember the ad campaign think different. And I love this story. Because guy says that the ad guy was in the room. And so there were two videos of this campaign with Einstein and all these other people that they were using at the time to buy Macs because they're being competed against by Microsoft. And they thought the company was gonna go down. And they had guy says to Steve, he says to guy, I'm gonna get one copy to get Steve and I get a one copy to guy. And I love the story. Because then he said, Steve turns to guy and he says, returns the guy that says, No, you're gonna get both copies to me. And guy turns to him and says, what's wrong? Steve? Don't you trust me? And Steve says, No, I don't trust you. And they said, Well, that's okay. I don't trust you. Really, he said that back to Steve Jobs. And he says in this story, and that is like, I think this kind of famous story, that that little move because he was just kind of pissed off. cost him a quite a big fortune. So it was it's interesting to see in time, everything has its place in time. And you talk about this part in your book becoming a go giver. And I remember having these guys on the show. So Bob Berg and John David Mann wrote that book and actually man that did a book with his wife as well, if I remember correct, the two of them speak about the whole go giver. thing. It says no one will buy from you because you have a quota. Okay, what what points were you trying to make here with that?
Greg Reid
You just went on a monologue for so long that I want to go back to your first question. So the first question was the idea of a truth and I think contradictory. So I really found that. So so the the concept of that one is that it goes down that paradigm, and I'll give you an example. One person says the glass is half full, another person says the glass half empty. They're both correct. One person says good things come to those who wait. The other one says good things come to those who wait but only the things left behind by those who hustle the head. They're both right. And we realize just because one person says something, there is an opposing point of view. So it's It's just another way of looking things from, like I said, a different set of lens. When you talk about jobs, and again, I got a chance to hang up a lot of time with Steve Wozniak and hear the stories behind the stories of how they embrace their lack and go towards their adversity and find the shortest cleanest path was absolutely phenomenal. It really is a story within the story. And then at the end of the day that go giver here, you know, John, man, as you ghostwrote I don't know if you notice, or not many of the most famous books you've ever read. And I didn't know that. Yeah, he was a ghostwriter. And so trust me, you've read many of his books that with other people's names on it. And what happened is that when Bob went to him to do this book, Johnson, I'd like to put my name on this one and come out myself. And sure enough, they did. And they negotiated a deal where they became co authors. And that put John on the map, even though behind the scenes, the guy's been inspiring us for generations and generations, John man is a great writer around just so you know, so he's absolutely phenomenal. He
Greg Voisen
is, and I had the pleasure of not interviewing him, but interviewing his wife, for the book, The Go Giver. So it was it was really interesting. So you have your own quote in this book. And for my listeners, maybe or people that are watching this on the video, it says, Never give a person never beg a person to give them a compliment, opportunity or money. And you talk about years ago was fortunate enough to mentor in the inner city kid in a local town in San Diego, talking about this, this kid, this very tall kid, as it was, and what did you learn?
Greg Reid
Okay, I love this. And this is what's so cool about this book, no matter what page you open to, there's some golden gem and nugget. And people listening, watching. Trust me get a copy of this personal development, you'll be glad you did put it I call it a bathroom book, put it in the John, every time you're doing your business, open a page or two, you love it. So the idea is never beg a person to give them a compliment opportunity or money. Now, here's this why this is important. How many times have we went to our family friends, though, beg them to give them an opportunity or some type of opportunity? Or some you know, cash or to give them a compliment? If you got them say got your hair looks great today? Ah, no, it doesn't it. So today. Well, I'd like to say you know, it really does look great. I give you a compliment. If you don't want it, I'm not gonna beg you to give you that compliment. It's the same thing with money. It's the same thing with opportunity. So I just have a rule of thumb where I never beg a person to give me a compliment opportunity or money. Pretty simple stuff.
Greg Voisen
Now, tell us the story about this young man that you were mentoring.
Greg Reid
Yeah, I call him David the Goliath he was six foot four at only 14 years old. Yeah, the kid was huge. father passed away didn't have a positive role model got arrested for stealing a bicycle. And you know it was carrying a pocket knife to school. And they met him through a local mentorship program here in San Diego. We built a bond. Every week I'd pick him up and say you want to go to the movies arcade? He goes, Yeah, you start building this thing and I could see a one something special, but he didn't know what to do. So I took them over to Kmart again, the store back in the day, right? But Sears Kmart, always everyone JC Penney's, like Kmart. And I said, Pick out a bike. Any bike you want, you can have it and he goes, I can't do it. I'm just a kid. I got no money. I said, let's leave. He goes, No, wait, how can I do it? I said pick out a bike and he comes over he goes, bam, like a great habit. It says, What can I do? And I says, what can you do? He says I can mow lawns, I get to wash windows, I can mow lawns I go, the easiest way to hit a goal is to have a goal to hit. And that's what you did. And what he did is he put fliers all around the town for these odd jobs. And every week I'd pick him up and say movies arcade, back to Kmart, and he paid down on that bike. And the moral is we can have anything and everything once we set our goal and intention is exactly where we want to go. That's
Greg Voisen
a great story because you were teaching this young man something along the way, one responsibility and to and to have a goal. He wanted the bike. You got the bike for him, and he paid you back for the bike. Right?
Is that how it worked? He did a layaway so that's how it was. Oh, he
Greg Voisen
put it in the layaway. Okay, got it. Got it. Got it.
Greg Reid
That's actually part of the story. Great. I forgot about this. At that time. The bike when he came over. This is a great law. He says okay, I get it. How can I get it and I said well, I got 20 bucks. I'll give it to you. We can go to the movies with this or the arcade or you can put on this bike and pay it off. And he chose to go put it down on layaway and forgot about that little nugget. Thanks.
Greg Voisen
There you go see something good always comes through this. Now. I happen to be driving home from I come back to Irvine. I'd flown in and out of Irvine. And I'm listening to Brene Brown and you have Have her spotlight in the spotlight, right? And now, I'm not saying every one of my listeners knows who she is, but probably most of them do. You say esteemed researchers speaker, groundbreaking ideas around vulnerability, courage, and shame. And the quote was, I now see how owning our story and loving ourselves through that process is the bravest thing that we will ever do. She has a TEDx talk, which has been viewed 2 million, 3 million times, whatever it is, what is it that you think people should know about Brene Brown and being vulnerable? was
Greg Reid
very interesting. I'm glad you brought that one up through the process. A lot of the people that I included in this project are people I've never met in person, and she's one of them, boxes, things, things of this nature, but I realized it'd be remiss to not put somebody who's such a personal development icon into a personal development book. So we do this book is from Aristotle to Ziggler, A to Z, right and kind of as many people as we can, but about embracing our vulnerability, there's a great quote, my former wife came up with that I put in this book, I think I took credit for it, but it was her. And she says the true measure of someone being transparent and authentic, is the ability and with the ability, and the promise to show the uncomfortable parts of ourselves. Think about that one. Most people
Greg Voisen
repeat that one for everybody. Okay?
Greg Reid
It's the ability and willingness to show the uncomfortable parts of ourselves. That's what being transparent is. And I think we've gotten away from that we think being transparent, is to show one side of ourselves on Instagram, you know, we're not at the Maldives. No, but actually, to be really transparent. To be authentic, is the ability and the willingness to show and share the uncomfortable parts of ourselves. And that's such a powerful statement when you sit back and think about it, because that's what it comes down to. And what she's saying is that we need to own our good, bad, indifferent. But here's the challenge. We all have 10 things going on in our lives. Eight of them amazing. One of them, Fe one of them suck. Unfortunately, majority of us focus on the suck. And we don't give ourselves credit. Hey, good job keeping the you know, the phone bill on this month, Hey, good job paying that rent, the things that we take for granted, we're other people do anything to trade our place. We forget how amazing it is. And right now, majority of us in our lifetimes, are exactly in the spot that we hoped and prayed we be at one time. And now that we've arrived, we don't have appreciation and gratitude for where we're at.
Greg Voisen
That is a that is very, very good statement. And I think that gratitude, I was just on with an author prior to you. And you know, gratitude, she called her book graciousness, gracious ly assertive. And we're talking about leadership, and you have a quote in this book, a positive attitude will not get the desired result every time. But a negative one surely will. And you just kind of mentioned this, then is that if we can have an attitude of gratitude, right, versus this focus on you said there Brene Brown, you said one bad one, eight good ones. One maybe so so so yet, our, our thought patterns go to the negative one because it takes all of our energy and all of our attention. Yet there's nine other ones that we should be so grateful for. Right? And so that quote, kind of sums it up, doesn't it?
Greg Reid
Yeah, I've got this tennis coach. And every time we go out on the court, I'd say Here comes my A game, get ready, coach, I'm taking you down this time. And he pulled me into the net and said, Greg, slow down, that positive attitude isn't gonna get you anywhere you get to work on your stroke. Next time I'd meet up here at comes coach, I'm gonna tell you, I've been practicing getting to stretch and I'm gonna take you down today. He pulled me to the net, say the same thing. Eventually, this kept going on till finally pull me to the middle of the net, says Greg. He goes, having that positive attitude is great and all but that's not going to win you games. And I looked at him and I pulled out that quote that I wrote, you write a positive attitude may not get the desired results every time. But a negative one. surely will. And that stuck with me. So I decided to put it in this book. Well,
Greg Voisen
I'm glad it's in there. And like you said, get this book. I will put a link to it. You You haven't this one generation to the next in a talk about Kyle Wilson, who worked hand in hand with one of the greatest voices in modern motivation, compiled a list of his mentors, best quotes and Rome sayings. That's Jim Rohn. And these are the, these are the gyms and you put two pages of quotes by Jim Rome in there. What was your personal interaction with Jim? And what did you think? What do you think our listeners can pull away from some of Jim's experiences and the things that he's written in the books he's written.
Greg Reid
So I never got a chance to meet him while he was living. When he passed away. They had his funeral. And somehow I got on this list to go VIP to be with all the legends behind the scenes during his funeral. And I go backstage with Tony Robbins, and Brian Tripp, you name and all the cast of characters and me and knuckleheads, just the green kid at that time. And I got to tell you, it was so interesting, just watching the way that people spoke about this man. And it just impacted me so much that one person made such a great impact. And then I started watching his stuff and listened to his tapes. And I realized he was a simple guy. So I want to get that and he wasn't this crazy, philosophic, philosophical guy with a long beard on the mountaintop, you know, sitting cross legged, he was a normal dude. But he saw things from a different perspective, kind of like Jerry Seinfeld of positive, right
Greg Voisen
for you.
Greg Reid
You would notice common things and then crafted in a way that we could see ourselves in that messaging. So I love the way of his simplistic tone and mannerisms because it's an active lives of millions. Yeah, so
Greg Voisen
for those who've never listened to or read one of Jim Rome's books, do go out there and check them out that he was famous for what He taught. And a lot of it was around selling. Right, it was, you know, he was big around marketing and sales. Now, you kind of last page of this book, when I say last, the back cover. I want to end up here. Imagine all that is possible the moment we realize that all that is possible. Greg Reid, that's your quote. What would you tell people about imagining what is possible? Because you just said a second ago, hey, I was this little green guy with all these other people yet, your life has been so blessed with meeting some of the greatest people, mentors that have influenced you into shaping who you are today. Right, your success is a result of your willingness to step out, be totally uncomfortable. Go places that you've never gone before, and show up. And I think, really the possible is because one of your things in there was about action when we were talking about Napoleon Hill in action was in the word. What have you What would you say in summing up for our audience was really the most important influencers? And what would you leave with our audience? What would you leave our audience?
Greg Reid
Yeah, I'd say it's the action in the law of attraction that makes our dreams come true. You gotta think it feeling off your backside gotta take action, you got to do it. There's so many I mean, Don green, obviously amazing shirt electro has been amazing to me. Charlie, tremendous Jones all these different people. But I will say also Bob Proctor when we got a chance to write, and thinking Grow Rich thoughts or things was a monumental moment. For me, it was a good shift. And I really, really, truly enjoyed that journey. But my number one person by far as trite as somebody not seeing coming is Brian Tracy. So Brian was the very first person to ever give me a quote, a little blurb on the back of my book. And I felt so proud and honored for him to do that. And recently, a year or so ago, he came out with a new book. And when I went to Barnes and Noble and I turned it over my quote, endorsing his book was on the back of the circle of life. And I'll end with this part is that he taught me one lesson that changed my life. And I'm always in gratitude for this. He said, Greg, the secret is sell your way out of it. So what do you mean it goes everything minus some catastrophic illness is sellable. Now, what do you mean goes well, he goes, most people when they're having a tough time, they focus on cutting back on toothpicks and post it notes and toilet paper because they're saving money, because that's the wrong mindset. He goes, how do you go get a $5,000 sale make enough profit from that, that you don't have to worry about this little stuff and it takes care of itself? He goes, find a way to sell your way through that has changed my life so many times over where I've found myself at, you know, despair, darkest times where it rings I have a little Brian on my shoulder saying sell your way out of it. Because someone out there is waiting to hear what you got to say. And for the people watching this, for the first time understand this, what's common sense to you is genius to somebody else. Somebody else is waiting to hear what you've got to say. My son 12 years old plays this little fortnight game. He's a genius at it. And guess what kids will pay 20 bucks to sit in a chair right next to him to watch him play this video game. Why he's doing anyway. But he knows all the tricks where they can learn from it. And just what you're doing your daily activities that you think is normal, someone out there is waiting to learn from you so they can duplicate it for themselves. That's
Greg Voisen
perfect. And on that note with Brian Tracy. I was invited by Jim. He had a little session down in La Jolla. Cathcart, Jim Cathcart. And Brian was there. And I hadn't seen Brian in a long time, Brian sitting across the room, kept art asked me to tell some stories. And then, and then Brian. And as a result of that, Brian and I connected, we just did a podcast about his most 32 laws of Success book that just came out. And I was in Solana Beach, we spent three hours around the coffee table, and we created a whole new venture together. The reality is, is here's this guy in his 80s. And I really give him credit, still out there super active, like 2.1 million people following him on Facebook, and Instagram and all these places. But he really is an exceptional guy. And when he talks, you listen, you know, because of the way he actually has perfected the way in which he delivers a message. And I'm glad that he was the first person to provide endorsement on the back of your book. And I want to thank you for being on inside personal growth, sharing some of your wisdom and insight and the wisdom and insight from the people you've learned from. in personal development. This is Greg's last book that don't write himself. But it's not going to be his last book, because the reality is it probably find someone to team up with to new another book. But thanks for being on inside personal growth. Great. I
Greg Reid
got to say, Greg, if you're one of my favorite things about you is you're one of the only people in the entire industry that actually consumes this material. A lot of people talk about it, people will scan through, but you're willing to few people, actually a student's mindset where you know, all this stuff, you just were talking everything you just interviewed for me for you already know the answers, but you come across as students mindset to put the guests at ease, which is very special. And more importantly, it's cool to have a little friendly reminder of all the stuff that you already are aware of. And now it's time for us to get off your backside, take action and go do something with it.
Greg Voisen
I love it. Thanks for being on Inside Personal Growth.
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Inside Personal Growth with Greg Voisen · Podcast 1037: Graciously Assertive with Dr. Yasmin DaviddsIn this episode, Dr. Yasmin Davidds, an accomplished entrepreneur and organizational psychologist, delved into her latest book, Graciously Assertive: How Becoming a Better Human Makes You a Better Leader. As the CEO of the Dr. Yasmin Davidds Leadership Institute, she has devoted over two decades to empowering and developing women leaders, particularly focusing on multicultural women.
Dr. Davidds’ journey is deeply personal, shaped by her experiences as a Latina of immigrant parents from Mexico and Ecuador. Her upbringing in a machismo culture, where women often lacked a voice, fueled her passion to create a better world for women. Overcoming childhood trauma and the challenges of being a single mother, she has dedicated her career to advocating for women’s empowerment and leadership.
Dr. Davidds emphasized the importance of inclusivity and self-awareness in leadership. She highlighted three of the eight pillars of her book: self-awareness, social awareness, and self-regulation. According to Dr. Davidds, self-awareness is foundational for personal growth and effective leadership. Social awareness involves understanding how one’s behavior impacts others, while self-regulation is about managing emotions to align intentions with outcomes.
Dr. Davidds shared a compelling story from her book about a woman who struggled to advance in her career due to her belief in keeping personal and professional lives separate. Through Dr. Davidds’ program, the woman learned to build trust and connect with her team on a deeper level, ultimately transforming her career and personal life.
At the core of Dr. Davidds’ philosophy is the idea that being a better human makes one a better leader. Her approach integrates empathy, compassion, and inclusivity, advocating for a leadership style that values both assertiveness and graciousness. Her work continues to inspire and transform the lives of many, proving that leadership rooted in humanity and kindness can drive profound change.
For more insights and practical steps on becoming a graciously assertive leader, explore Dr. Davidds’ book or visit their website.
You may also refer to the transcripts below for the full transciption (not edited) of the interview.
Interview Transcipt -Not EditedEmailDownloadNew TabGreg Voisen
Well, welcome back to Inside Personal Growth. This is Greg Voisen, the host of Inside Personal Growth. And joining us from Los Angeles on the other side with beautiful smile., beautiful face is Dr. Yasmin Davidds and she has a new book out called Graciously Assertive. Can you hold that up for our listeners?
Dr. Yasmin Davidds
Absolutely, yeah.
Greg Voisen
Okay, this is her fifth book, she said, “How Becoming a Better Human”, you want to read that subtitle so that we get that in there?
Dr. Yasmin Davidds
Graciously Assertive: How Becoming a Better Human Makes You a Better Leader?
Greg Voisen
Most definitely. And for my listeners, let me let them know just a tad bit about you. She's an entrepreneur, organizational psychologist, the CEO of Dr. Yasmin Davidds Leadership Institute. And if you want to get more information, you can go to Dr. Yasmin institute.com. There you can learn more about her. And the work that she's done with multiple multicultural women executive leadership Foundation, is one thing that you'll know about. She's also committed to the empowerment and development of all women leaders, and has brought her recognition and claim to US Congress, the California State Senate and the California State Assembly, and has been recognized and highlighted as one of the top leading Latinas of Hispanic magazine, and one of the most influential Latinas and the book of Latina women. As one of the top leading female negotiation experts in the US and Latin America, she's trained and consult in 1000s of corporate leaders, over 200 Blue Chip companies throughout 22 countries in the art of skillful negotiation. She had a prior book. And the fourth book was called your own terms, a woman's guide to taking care of any negotiation. And we will put a link to that as well. She is executive entrepreneur and Millennial programs has impacted and transform the lives and careers of over 5000 professional women went by worldwide, and a graduate of the University of Southern California USC with a degree in business entrepreneurship, and went on to receive a master's in women's studies and her doctorate degree in organizational psychology. Well, it's a pleasure having you on. I think, for my listeners, they get a bit about what you're about. And I think this book is a great way for people kind of, you know, we call the roadmap because you did say that this is a roadmap, offering the best routes for people become better humans and better leaders. And, you know, I could throw this into the question and make it a compound question. Because I know this isn't going to hurt. You know, we see the challenges that the United States is facing today with leaders worldwide. We're seeing it in Mexico and Venezuela, and all kinds of countries where we're having challenges with leaders. And unfortunately, they're not female, and they're not Hispanic. And who knows, we might have been a better world if they were female, and they were Hispanic. How's your personal journey and experience influences the teaching, and when you say graciously assertive? I love it. Because I think if we did some more of our negation know, she negotiations being more graciously and assertive at the same time, we'd get so much further ahead.
Dr. Yasmin Davidds
Absolutely. So, while there's so much that was going through my first of all, thank you so much for having me here. I'm excited to have this conversation with you. There's so much of my life, that that basically has created the career and the books that I have written, because I am a reflection of being a Latina of immigrant parents who came here from Mexico and Ecuador with no education, second, and third grade education, wanting to provide a better life for their future children, you know, began working in factories, my father became an entrepreneur. And, and that's where I learned about entrepreneurship and what it was to, to work hard and strategic in order to build whatever it is that you choose to build in this country. I think that going through also trauma and abuse as a child and have been in a family where women basically we did not have a voice was what we call my cheese culture. It really taught me at the age of five years old that I wanted to change the world and make it better for women because I needed to find hope in my future and I wanted to make it different. So bringing all of that together. Fast forward. I have committed the last 22 years of my career into empowering and developing Women starting with Latinas, I started crossed over to mainstream women, few years after that, and have been committed to multicultural women, women of color, mostly because not too many people do focus on multicultural women and the need is very much there. So I, you know, I believe that becoming a better human makes you better leader becoming a better leader makes you a better human. And I think it's it's very telling, you know, not I don't like to get political in my conversations unless they're about politics. But you know, just what we're going through right now in the country, that divisiveness and one incident of almost a horrible, horrible incident of, of a former president almost being assassinated, has completely changed the dynamics of that person's experience towards now uniting a country where they are, and its inclusivity. It's about inclusivity. It's now from going from division to inclusivity, based on an experience of almost death, right? So I have experienced almost death, I have experienced so much trauma, that I have seen inclusivity as the key to graciousness, and peace and love and leadership. It's all inclusive, I think that we have, it's so divided in this world. And that's what hurts us. But I do believe that we start seeing, we could self-advocate and be inclusive of the other side's perspective as well.
Greg Voisen
Well, I think that's a good comment. And, you know, I have taken on listening to Dr. Peterson, and you made Jordan Peterson. And one of the things you know, as a female, and you're being brought up in this Latina culture without a voice. There's something that he says it's interesting, and I want people to really reflect on this, and that is that, you know, we have a contract with the future. And the question is, is what do we sacrifice today? And it's really apparent to me that you've taken the route to make some sacrifices, so that you look at your future. So you might your contract with the future, to be something better a leader has to do that. And so my question might be to you to all the people who are women leaders, who maybe have families as well, and have this contract with the future. But there's this conundrum with the sacrifices they make with their family. And my question to you would be, how would you help women who are listening today understand the importance of making that sacrifice for the contract they've made with the future?
Dr. Yasmin Davidds
I completely agree that there is a contract with the future. And as far as sacrifices, you know, I like I usually will refrain that because I don't necessarily feel I made sacrifices. Instead, what I did is I chose to be inclusive, bring my family along with my quote, unquote, ride to my future contract, which means that I have as a single mother of a daughter, and she went with me to my speaking engagements, she introduced me, she went on my bush. So I included her in part of me traveling a lot, took my mom with me to take care of her when I found a way of being a single mom, that was very difficult. But I found a way so that I didn't have to leave her all the time. Now, I know that's not conducive to everyone's schedule. But there's always different ways of being a bringing your family on the journey with you. To this future contract, whatever you choose to create. And if you're in an organization that doesn't allow you to do that, maybe it's time to change organizations, then, I mean, we have to really find the right fit for you. And there's always the right fit. You just have to be committed to it. You don't have to do what is told that you have to do things a certain way. There's always someone breaking ground and doing things differently, that could be you.
Greg Voisen
Well, and that's you for certain. In chapter one, you discuss that becoming a better leader. I would call it a transformed leader starts with becoming a better human being. Now, we have seen that many of the leaders in the Senate, the house president, they maybe weren't better human beings. Okay? And I always wonder about because this show is about personal growth, personal transformation. If you can't transmute some of your issues, your ego issues, the ones that tell you you're not enough so that you've got to rise to the top to do something. How can you this graciously assertive book is about transforming to be a good human being Could you share some of the practical steps for transforming to being a good human being not just a good leader, because a good human being can be a good leader?
Dr. Yasmin Davidds
Absolutely. And you know, some people might say that being a good human being is subjective to someone's values and morals. And I disagree. I do believe that being a good human being, there could be elements that could be based on values, but at the core, it just human being, being empathetic to other people being compassionate, that's being a good human being, regardless of your values. And if you don't believe that, that then humanity, I don't know how someone can define humanity without and lacking compassion and empathy for others. And for yourself, you know, being being able to communicate in a way where you show respect for other individuals, even that oppose have opposing views. Everybody has a story of why they believe what they believe. And no one should be dishonouring someone else's story or experience, you may not agree with it. But you need to be able to respect it. Right? So these are basic elements of a good human being. And the number one step and I have in my book, The eight pillars of so what are what are
Greg Voisen
those eight pillars of graciously assertive leadership? And you can just mention them briefly, because we probably won't have time to go into them. But it shows the thought that you put into the book, because the pillars kind of run throughout the book, right? So 00 tolerance for judgment, these kinds of things. Talk with us, if you would about the eight pillars, and maybe, let's, let's highlight two of them that you really think are very important.
Dr. Yasmin Davidds
Absolutely. So the eight pillars are self awareness, social awareness, self regulation, self compassion, gratitude, healthy boundaries, zero tolerance to judgment, and graciously assertive communicator. Now, I'm going to, I'm going to talk about the top three only because I know you said to put the three go together, self awareness is the number one priority for any growth without self awareness, there's nothing you can do, you need to be aware of your your own strengths, your areas, your weaknesses, your moods, you're when you're at your best, you know, not only health wise, emotionally, every element of yourself self awareness is key. And it's the foundational level for personal growth and transformation as a human and as a leader. Second is social awareness. And social awareness is being able to understand your environment. You know, when people say, read the room, read the room and social awareness be understand how the room, you know how people are responding to certain elements. But more than that, is how people are responding to you. Social awareness is by about how your behavior is impacting other people, your energy really determines how other people respond to you. And people have no clue that they're not reading the room. And they're going off and saying things that are being disrespectful, or whatever it may be. And then the third element, third pillar of better human and better leader is self regulation. And some people say, Why don't you call it self management regulation, I don't like that word. And it's like, well, self management can mean manage your time, that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about regulating your emotions. So that you your intention that you have to make on people in your environment aligns with the outcome with your outcome and your intention align, and you can't do it without self regulating. Because if you're in a bad mood, and you don't realize that you're bringing that energy to your team, your team is going to respond to that, and you're not gonna be able to inspire them and get the best out of them if you're barking at them if you're just giving orders. So you need to be able to take a step back and be like, okay, and even tell your team today's a really bad day for me, you know, but I want you to know that I'm here to support you, whatever it may be. But self regulation is key and the fundamental for everything else about being a good human being and leader. Well,
Greg Voisen
I think that goes along with, I have a little sign that's on my desk, and I'm going to show you here now. Yeah, so as So as someone you need to frequently I think we're emotional to the extent of detriment. So the reality is, is if you can take a breath, be here now and really look at it. And before you actually respond to what anyone said to you, because you will go down a wrong path if you allow your emotions to carry you. And I think in some cultures, especially even Latina, it's highly emotional culture. Right?
Dr. Yasmin Davidds
We're very expressive and passionate and emotional. Yes,
Greg Voisen
exactly. And if you looked at somebody for England, you would go well, they're not so emotional because I was just there like literally three days ago. And my point is, is that if you can control that emotion yet still express it, and you're saying, graciously assertive, I think the key here is, and I want to talk about morality and spirituality that play a role in being graciously assertive. You discuss this in chapter three of the book. So what is this because, you know, while you have a master's degree, USC and many, I've got a master's degree in spiritual psychology. And the interesting thing there is I learned so much about compassionate communications, how we communicate back and forth with one another, talk with us about these two, those are big words morality and spirituality, and how they play a role in being graciously assertive.
Dr. Yasmin Davidds
Absolutely. So at the fundamental level level of graciously assertive is the ability to self advocate while holding space for the other side. And that means that you can express your concerns, whatever it is, but at the same time, understand that what you're asking from the other person, you also have to offer. And that is being able to listen, being understanding to their needs and understanding, they have a story and concerns and everything as well. And so that's the fundamental definition of what graciously assertive is. And many people think that it's very hard for it to coexist, because if you're assertive, it's all about the eye and gracious is kindness. And it's it doesn't align with the sort of, but that is fundamental to morality. And to morality, meno moral human being is knowing right from wrong, and really understanding that there are different aspects of people. And there's a very clear, right from wrong, you know, on the bare fundamental level. And so being gracious is really taken in consideration the aspects of human beings on the right and wrong of you know, whether or not you're someone's in need, do you help them, you know, that there's a right and wrong to that, you know, yes, I mean, if they're in need, they're on the floor, or there's somebody in their lane, you help them, that's just a good moral human being to do. And that, that, that equals to graciousness, kindness, you know, holding space for the other side. So it's very much aligned with being a better human being overall. But now it's bringing it to communication, right? Gracious, assertiveness is also communication style, bringing that to leadership, and bringing these elements that are so basic to humanity, that either we forgotten them, or we just never connected them to leadership before. So spirituality to me, has nothing to do with religion, and has more to do with your power. Right. And I'm very spiritual, but not religious. And without my faith and spirituality, I would not be here nor I wouldn't be able to do my work. And I do believe that there there is an element of spirituality, regardless of whether you find it in Buddhism and Catholicism, it doesn't matter. But I think it's fundamental, to live from a place of gratitude and gratitude is key as well to being gracious because you it's a certain energy that is needed. And it's very difficult to live in gratitude without spirituality. Gratitude
Greg Voisen
actually begets, I'm gonna say graciousness. So yes, you know, I agree, people have a practice of gratitude. Every morning, when you wake up, you know, I'm thankful to just get out of bed, I'm thankful for the house I live in and the clothes that I wear and the things that I've got, I think you really begin to put things in perspective, that way about how you have been blessed, right, with some really good things. And you have several stories in the book, including stories from alumni of your leadership program. And I want you to share one of the stories that exempts exemplifies your graciously assertive leadership. Because I think for our listeners, know, people learn from stories, whether it's your story or someone else's story, I think it's important to have a story here to actually say, Okay, how did this work?
Dr. Yasmin Davidds
Absolutely. There's so many great ones. And I'm thinking of one, I would say one that's in the book is of a woman who, who had become very successful in her career. And then she became stuck where she was struggling to go to the next level because she was struggling to build those connections and relationships with team members in a way where they felt cared for and they felt that she was leading them from a place of compassion and not just from a place of work results. And she really did care about them. She just felt that you don't talk about certain personal things at work. You just don't. And because she was taught growing up, that you keep the personal, personal and Businesses business. And that all came from her experience of going through trauma that her mother, she watched her mother be, be physically abused, and then get herself together. And when she dropped her off at school, she said, What happened at home happened at home, what happens at school happens at school, you don't talk about what happened at home at school, and other words, so that's how she grew up, she carried that to the workforce. And that's what she taught her people. And then so she started realizing that she also didn't trust individuals, so And she had always felt very alone in her life, even as successful she had become. And she realized that she had not healed from this belief, of keeping the personal, and the professional separate, and the lack of trust that she didn't trust her team members, and it was all now being played out in her professional career. And even with her family, because she also there was fountain family issues that were going on. And through the process of really what we call understanding your leader, your crucible, like what happened in your life that caused you to create some beliefs and now be may be getting in your way, or may not be hurting you through that process in our program, she realized that she had been holding on she lost all trust of people she had been holding on to these beliefs that no longer serve her. And until she changed that she was not going to be able to move and transform herself to the next level. And when we were in our programs, we do it in community. And that's the power of community because you could do it individually. But the power of community makes just propels you to the next level, because you have 30 other women that are saying we got you, you know wasn't your fault, you can do this and validates they validate one another. And these are women that are at the same level, usually director level or above. So it's like they understand each other. And that validation just completely transformed, transformed her to be able to move up, I mean, not only does she move up in her career, and build more teams, and tripled her salary, and all these results, it all started from her getting out of her own way, and becoming self aware of her limitations, socially aware of how she was coming off self regulation on being able to heal and showing up differently, and all and all the other pillars living in gratitude. So that's why these pillars are so important, because they don't happen all at once. But it's a striving, it's progress, not perfection, right of trying to to practice these practices, these pillars that help you become a better human and better leader.
Greg Voisen
Well, you know, it's a journey. Yeah, Dr. Davidson. And the journey starts with the first step. And one of those is awareness, as you said, but it's awareness of how the subconscious mind can actually program what it is that we believe. And if we can get in touch with that subconscious mind, either through some form of meditation, some type of program, where we can really understand that our mind does have that control over us and our environment, and we can control it, that we can transform ourselves. And, you know, you talk about this six focuses on modeling graciously a certain sort of method, what are some of the key behaviors or practices that leaders need to model for their teams. So you were talking about this woman, and where she came from, and it was a great story, because it she was imposing her beliefs on them, and not actually including them or inclusion, and to hear their side of a story about maybe where they come from, and remodel the whole thing for a transformation for the team. Right? So I see that with your program, you can help people, but how do you build this assertive mindset? How do you help these women see that side of themselves to become more compassionate, more inclusive, more understanding? You know, I've had people say to me, Oh, well, when I said this to somebody the other day, it was like, hey, a leader needs to be compassionate, they need to be inclusive. They need to have understanding. And somebody said to me, Well, maybe where your world is, but not from where I'm from. And I was thinking to myself, Wow, that's, that's pretty silly.
Dr. Yasmin Davidds
Yes, absolutely silly. And I'll tell you many women that come into our program, they, they they also believe like, you know, in my world, in the financial industry, there's no way it's like that it's cutthroat and an investor and whatever it may be, but what helps what has really helped women and women in my programs and people because I've been working with different types of people everywhere, from billionaires to homeless individuals. And it's all consistent. And that is that it's when you hear the stories of other individuals that you begin with stories of whatever it is that they went through we call it crucibles, the crucibles when women start hearing each other's stories and start realizing I'm not alone. I'm not the only every single human being has been through something incredible, something large, something kind of trauma or some more than others in different ways. And it starts humanizing individuals more because we're so hard on ourselves, and then we're hard on others. So when you hear other people's stories, it starts building an empathy, that I honestly believe it's very hard to garner without listening to other people's stories, and doing it quickly, right, because literally in 24 hours, these women go from being, you know, somewhat compassionate to extremely compassionate, but it's through the power of storytelling, that they're they listen to 30 different stories of their them going on, on their crucibles. It can be anything from, you know, I don't know from when that story I told you about the abuse, to molestation to crossing the border, and being arrested at the age of five. I mean, there's so many stories, and understanding Wow, the people that I go to work with my boss, my colleagues, all of them have a story to write, and the people who are acting up that are being passive aggressive at work, they have a story to that they start seeing people from a completely different perspective, and they start building empathy for people, even new people they're going to meet and it completely changes the dynamic of how they see the world. So what I share is, I started practicing that by owning my story. And then creating groups where I shared it with people because I wanted to hear theirs. And once I shared mine, they share it. And it didn't have to be work related individuals, it can just be a group that you bring together, the power of storytelling, sharing and being vulnerable, can transform you to be a more empathetic person.
Greg Voisen
Well, I recently had an author on here and he is the founder of the Socratic cafes, and those Socratic cafes are where people actually meet to tell their stories and to talk about the divisiveness and things that are going on Socratic cafes are all around the country now.
Dr. Yasmin Davidds
Oh, my God,
Greg Voisen
I haven't heard of one. Okay. There's, there's there's also democracy cafe, the same gentleman came up with it, I think what you just said is so important that whether we're men or women, or whatever, we are transactional. The reality is, we all have a story. And our story, as we tell it needs to be not only told, but listen to with empathy and understanding, then we can figure out why you have that story. Right where that came from. And then if you choose to change that story, so you want to change your life, you literally can change your life by changing your story. And that leads me to this nine outlines the challenges to graciously assertive living, what are some of the most significant challenges you've seen leaders face? Let's just call them human beings. And how they can overcome them? Because you know, first, you know, you said this, that you're spiritual, but not religious. I love that. If you can bring spirituality to work, and not leave it at home where you made the division, right? Many people, it's like that woman, you were saying, Oh, well, I have to leave that part of me at home, because I can't bring it to work. No, you have to bring your whole self to work. And if you can't bring your whole self to work and have people understand you as who you are, you're really not working in the right place. So the reality for me, I'm asking this question is, how do we actually get people to bring their stories, share their stories and have leaders that understand those stories? And for them to overcome the stories that they've created? That's defining who they are?
Dr. Yasmin Davidds
Yes, absolutely. And I think there are ways and, you know, I outlined that in my book, we need to systematize inclusion, and systematizing inclusion is creating principles. So in our Institute, in my leadership institute, we have principles, Institute principles that we live by, and kind of rules of engagement, and other words are creating a safe space. And what that is, and we go through them, reread them, and we have the students read them with us and we practice them and we honor them. They're sacred, because it's like there's no judging. You know, if you judge another woman, we we will pull you in sight and have a conversation. And if it continues, we will, we will remove you and we have removed women before, because that just tells us they're not ready, we don't judge them, it just means they're not ready to to be in that space. Because protecting that space will determine whether or not it's successful. So you need to guarded and protected at all costs. And by putting systematizing inclusion and ensuring everybody knows the rules of engagement, just like think about basketball, those rules of engagement, you fail so many times you're out, it's the same style, but it's about honoring them. And, and practicing them. When you do that, then people can come and share their experiences, being able to come and share about their different religions without trying to judge one another about what religion is right. And impose your religion on others. It is possible because I do it in my programs every single day, different religions, women, we have black women, Asian women, Latina, white, every and they honor each other's religions, you know, cultures, and if anything, they want to learn about each other's religions and cultures, because they know that if they say the wrong thing, they're not going to be you know, they're not, they're not going to be punished, because we know that it's coming from a place of contribution and a place of curiosity. And because their intentions are correct. So we establish that energy ahead ahead of time by interviewing everybody that's coming in. And there's different ones again, rules of engagement. I do believe that it's it's possible, there just has to be leaders are people invested, and ensuring that it's practiced and upheld?
Greg Voisen
Well, I know that this book can actually change people's lives. And it this book along with taking a course from you, or being coached by you would actually bring that on as well, meaning we could literally change so many leaders. What impact do you hope that graciously assertive the book itself the courses your organization, will have on the current landscape of leadership, which, right now, I think if you look at leadership across the board, you probably say because we're focused on as, as a as the US society, on some of the current issues of divisiveness. I don't believe this is occurring everywhere. But I think there's more good than there is bad. And if you look at many of these companies that are being led, they're being led very well. And the question now becomes, is, can and can graciously assertive, make the good, even better? For the best? So what is it the top of the heap? And how can you help all women across all genders in all genders help actually make themselves the best.
Dr. Yasmin Davidds
I am a true believer that the greatest gift you can give your yourself and to humanity in the world is to focus on becoming the best version of yourself, meaning personal growth, because the more you focus on self awareness, how you impact other people in wanting to become better. The more you you lead, by example, the more you are modeled, because there's people out there wanting to lead other people and don't even know anything about themselves. I mean, you have to lead yourself first, and you have to model it. And so there are leaders out there. I mean, I know, internally of some leaders that are top leaders of top 10 companies and like the top 10 companies in the world, especially in AI, and they're horrible at how they demean and yell at people at work. But people put up with it, because they make a lot of money. Right there. They've been Made Millionaires because of these companies. So it's being able to understand that, at the end of the day, focusing on becoming a better person by self awareness, healing your trauma, or if not healing it, then managing it in ways that you don't take it out on people and create toxic workplace cultures, because it's very common. That that is how one can, can start, do not start externally start internally, you got to do the inside work. You just have to, because if you're teaching it but you're not living it, then it just becomes a lot of chatter and people don't respect it.
Greg Voisen
Well, I think part of that, and we we didn't touch on this, but the cultures of organizations are actually defined in a lot of respects from the people who are at the top of the company. And if those cultures are allowing that behavior to continue, then it's a challenge. I was just had David Allen on here. It's got a new book called teams. And David wrote the get is the guy that behind the Getting Things Done, right. It's the big movement and organizations we realize have to get things done. But now when you will look like we work with teams, you've got Gotta get this done with gracious assertiveness. And the reality is, is there isn't an organization around, where we are not working with teams of people. I mean, it just is part of being in an organization. And I remember he has been that Margaret Wheatley used to speak about and I don't know if you remember but famous biologist used to speak about the Eco cultures, the you know, in from, from a biological standpoint, if we looked at a stream, or we looked at a pond, and we looked at that culture, right, that, that around that sphere that the frogs grow up in, that the tadpoles grow up into, and you can see you can learn a lot by nature, because nature itself is not how we are as human beings. Right. And, and I always thought it was such a great lesson in business for people to say, what is that eco culture that's out there that we could adopt? That would almost be the same as nature, because they work in harmony, they work in unison. They're they're not, you know, we know the hierarchy and animals and killing other animals, but that is for their survival of, of this species. Right. Exactly. And, and for some of us, I think sometimes we forget that we forget about our, our environment, right?
Dr. Yasmin Davidds
And we think, survival all the time, even though we're not right. Right.
Greg Voisen
And that is the culture, that's what I'm saying is this, this environment is the culture. And that culture, as you've said, has to be unified. It has to be one, it has to be aligned, it has to be looking toward the future, it has to do all these things that a company has to do for the stakeholders, right? Because all these stakeholders are expecting a return on their investment regardless. But that doesn't mean it needs to be done in a caustic environment, one where it's poisoned, one where people are actually falling out from stress. You know, the stress in the workplace today is huge. How does graciously assertive help people that might be dealing with a stressful situation.
Dr. Yasmin Davidds
It helps integrations, be assertive helps individuals reframe their experiences, by finding the gift finding the gift in whatever it is that they may be experiencing, what can I learn from this, and then setting healthy boundaries, right? Because you need both. If you're in a toxic environment, then you need to set healthy boundaries about this is not healthy for me. And maybe I need an exit strategy from here, right? But doing it smart, right? Work, start looking what other culture do I want to work for that, you know, do your homework on that and then investing in understanding that you need to take care of yourself. And that you need to be able to thrive in an environment that creates an ecosystem that supports you wanting to be the human leader that you want to be. So we need to be N equals ecosystems that help us thrive. Research shows that it takes seven to seven to 10 years to heal from a toxic boss. Imagine if you have three toxic bosses, that's 30 years of your life that you're doing. That's and it's horrible. So don't put up with it, find an exit strategy, don't tolerate it, you deserve better. Well,
Greg Voisen
and I think your book is a great way. And I want to let my listeners know, if you want to learn more about the book, we're going to put a link to Amazon, obviously, we'll also have a link to the website, which is Dr. Yasmin institute.com, that'll all be there for you to click on link on to basically get information about the book and her leadership programs. To learn more about that. And I just want to thank you for being on inside personal growth and sharing your story, right your personal story, as well as the story you shared with about one of your actual students write in your program, as well as giving us the eight pillars around this and providing us with such a great way that you're articulated the message, I say Namaste to you to your spiritual side. Thank you so much. And thanks for being on inside personal growth.
Dr. Yasmin Davidds
Thank you for having me, Greg.
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Inside Personal Growth with Greg Voisen · Podcast 1136: A Whack on the Side of the Head with Roger von OechJoining us this episode is renowned creativity consultant and author Roger von Oech, to discuss the latest edition of his book “A Whack on the Side of the Head“. The book, now in its 5th edition, has sold over a million copies and has been translated into more than 20 languages.
From Self-Publishing to Global Impact
Roger von Oech’s journey began in the early 1980s when he self-published the first edition of his book. Despite initial rejections from publishers, his perseverance paid off. He sold the first 2,000 copies in just a week, which eventually caught the attention of Warner Books. This marked the beginning of a global phenomenon that has inspired countless individuals and organizations to embrace creativity.
Key Insights on Creativity
During the interview, von Oech shared several insights on fostering creativity:
1. Don’t Fall in Love with Ideas: One of von Oech’s crucial tips is not to get too attached to any single idea. He emphasized the importance of being open to new ideas and willing to discard old ones that no longer serve their purpose.
2. Look for the Second Right Answer: Often, people stop at the first solution they find. Von Oech encourages looking for multiple right answers to discover more innovative and effective solutions.
3. Use Humor to Spark Creativity: Humor can be a powerful tool to break free from conventional thinking. By making fun of a problem or an organization, individuals can unlock new perspectives and creative solutions.
Creativity in Business
Von Oech has worked with numerous high-profile clients, including Apple, IBM, Procter & Gamble, and NASA. He often conducts workshops that emphasize doing over listening, helping participants engage in exercises that stimulate creative thinking.
Embracing AI in Creativity
The discussion also touched on the role of AI in creativity. Von Oech acknowledged the potential of AI to generate numerous solutions and accelerate problem-solving processes. However, he stressed the enduring value of human creativity and the importance of learning to think independently.
Final Thoughts
Roger von Oech’s insights remind us that creativity is not just about coming up with new ideas but also about letting go of old ones, looking beyond the obvious, and having fun with the process. Whether you are an individual looking to boost your creative thinking or a business aiming to foster innovation, von Oech’s wisdom provides valuable guidance.
For more on Roger von Oech’s work and to explore his creative tools, visit his website and check out the latest edition of “A Whack on the Side of the Head“.
You may also refer to the transcripts below for the full transciption (not edited) of the interview.
Interview Transcipt -Not EditedEmailDownloadNew TabGreg Voisen
Well, welcome back to Inside Personal Growth. This is Greg Voisen, the host of Inside Personal Growth. And we have joining us from, actually you are living the same place that Guy Kawasaki is. Woodside?
Roger von Oech
Yeah, a lot of people not a lot, but maybe 5000 other people. Yeah, it's a town near Palo Alto, California, in the Bay Area.
Greg Voisen
Yeah, pleasure. And we're going to be speaking about this, this new version, this is revised and updated. What version is I mean, how many times have you revised this?
Roger von Oech
Well, that's what you have in your hand is the glorious Final Edition. It came out about six weeks ago. And it's the 5th edition. And so and to all the editions, it's sold over a million copies has been translated into over 20 languages. But it's kind of fascinating history to it. I remember, in the early 80s, I had Apple co founder Steve Jobs. That's a speaker at one of the conferences I produced. And I said, you know, what motivated you to start apple and he said, we make what we want for ourselves. And back in the mid 70s, I wanted to a personal computer, but there wasn't one around that satisfied me. So I put myself in the position of CO founding apple. And well, the rest is history. And similarly, in the early 80s, I had been in business for myself about five...
Greg Voisen
Somebody get that straight. Were you actually a co founder of apple at that?
Roger von Oech
No, no, no. He was a speaker at Oh, it produced an innovation and industry conference, I produced seven of those in the early 80s. He spoke at the first one. But at at one of our meetings before then, you know, I asked him that. And he said, we make what we want for ourselves. And so at that point, I had been in business for about five years as a creativity consultants, consultant, working with companies to stimulate creativity in various departments, r&d marketing. And I developed a lot of creativity ideas. And I thought, I'd love to have a creativity book. That was fun. That was interesting. There was interactive, that jumped out at people it was full of pictures and exercises, and examples. And I couldn't really find one around. And so as jobs that said, you know, we make what we want for ourselves, I created the first edition of a wax on the side of the head. And I did that in 1982. So we're going back 42 years. And I sent it off to publishers in New York. And I got rejection notices from all of them online that I sent it to. So I said, Look, I can do this as an illustrator I worked with, I've got a good distribution network. I'm tied into Silicon Valley. So I self published a wax on the side of the head in November of 82. And I did a first printing of 2000 copies, and those sold out in a week. And then I printed 5000 More, and then 25,000 More, and by March, I'd sold a lot of copies. And so that got the interest of publishers in New York. So I went to New York in the spring of 83 and met with Bill Schenker at Warner books. And Peter Austin's history. Yeah. And so they did that they bought it. Warner books did and as they said, they did a first printing of 100,000 copies. And as I said, it's sold a lot since then. So but through the years, they allowed me to change it and update it and revise it.
Greg Voisen
Well, I want to tell my listeners you are certainly have the ability to help people innovate. And you've done it for many different companies. I think you've said you were at IDEO as well. And I want to show my listeners some of the little toys you've created to help people kind of get in a creative spirit in a creative toy so you can get this book obviously at Amazon. You can go to Roger's website as well, which we'll put a link to as well. The book is like I said this is a revised edition and there's a creative wack pack that he calls it and ball of wax as well. Tell us if you would, because I think the listeners would be really interested, this book is well documented. You've got a great biography in it. You've got great stories, you got opportunities for people to get unstuck. What are some of the things you've found over the years through being at IDEO, and, and being close to Apple and all this stuff? It's Silicon Valley that helps people get unstuck and become more creative.
Roger von Oech
Let me just correct one thing I know a number of or I used to know a number of people at IDEO, but they've never been a client but I've worked with many other companies from Apple, IBM, Procter and Gamble, NASA, the Federal Reserve Bank, and on and on. I guess, if I were to give a couple of my favorite ways to get into a creative frame of mind. One is don't fall in love with ideas. Don't fall in love with ideas. And that's really, really important thing. People that tend to have an idea, fall in love with it, and then use it everywhere, even in places where it's not appropriate. And I'll tell you a quick background story. When I first started in business for myself, you know, 40 plus years ago, I went to a variety of people said, what's it going to take to be successful in business and I went, coaches, ministers, business people, and the best advice I got came from my printer. And what he said was, don't fall in love with type styles. And he said, I've seen it happen with a number of designers where they fall in love with a particular typeface. And then they want to use it everywhere, even where it's inappropriate. Well, I didn't listen to him. But pretty soon I fell in love with Palatino, semi bold in after a while my design was hackneyed, a lack freshness. So I was able to generalize that idea to don't fall in love with ideas in general. And I found that whenever I've been writing, especially in a book, whenever I've been blocked in, in a chapter or in a story, it's because I've been in love with a particular example, or a particular phrase. And as soon as I allowed myself to get rid of that, you know, beloved idea, things started to flow. And I think Mark Twain hit the nail on the head when he said, probably life's most most over valued pleasure is sexual intercourse. And one of life's least appreciated pleasures is dedication. I mean, there's something about letting go that allows new things to happen. So I think that's important. But but it's hard to do. It's, it's, it's, it's hard to let go of your favorite ideas. This ties into another really important point. And that is, there are two sides of the creative process. There's a construct of side and a destructive side. The construct a side is fairly easy. You come up with new ideas, new strategies, new approaches, new ways of doing business. You know, we do that all the time. The hard part is letting go of what worked for you last year, last month, what
Greg Voisen
you're using now, what you're using now. Yeah. And
Roger von Oech
so and it's hard for me as well. I mean, I have my own beloved ideas, and, but it's good to examine those so that that would be one thing I would pass along to your, you know, your your many what 10,000 100,000 You know,
Greg Voisen
listening audience, whoever's listening, whoever's listening today, you never know what the what the number is gonna be. And it's not today, it's when this actually airs. Now, you listed 10, mental locks that hinder creativity. And look, I've been here, I've been stuck many times before Roger, on, you know, trying to rethink something. And, as you said, Don't get in love with an idea. Because, hey, if everybody was buying ideas, and they bought your idea, everyone would be a millionaire. The reality is, you got to implement it, you got to go through the process of the whole creative cycle. Which of these you find out of this 10 mental walks? is what most people struggle with the most, and what advice would you have for kind of overcoming it?
Roger von Oech
Well, some of the mental blocks I, I would say, you know, first of all, we don't need to be creative for most of what we do. I mean, if you got up this morning and started contemplating the bristles on your toothbrush or questioning those, you wouldn't make it to work, you know, you wouldn't get anything done. So you don't need to be creative for 95% of what you do. You know, a second thing that gets in the way of people being more creative is that we become prisoners of familiarity with prisoners of familiarity. And that means, the more often you do something the same way again and again and again, the more difficult it becomes to think about doing it any other way you get into these routine thoughts. And the third is, is that we really have been taught to be creative as you grow up. And I think most of us have grown up with certain attitudes and beliefs that make sense for a lot of what we do but get in the way. And these mental blocks, which is really what the book is about, include things such as there's one right answer, don't be foolish to err is wrong. That's not my area. I think. I think, for me, personally, the creative strategy I use to get out of art to get myself in a creative frame of mind, in addition to not falling in love with ideas is look for the second right answer. Some people get stuck that there's always one right answer, and you just read math problems that interface and in fact the case, but I think it's important to look for the second right answer for the third right answer. For example, here's a pin, you know, what is this? It's a writing device. That's the first right answer. What's the second right answer? It's a hole punch. It's an air cleaner. It's a weapon. If you if somebody is choking, it could be an emergency tracheotomy device. And if you have that attitude on it, looking at the world, or looking at your own problems. You see, this is why I sold that last week or last month. But what's the second right way of doing it? What's the third right way? An easy way to enforce this kind of thinking, or this approach, in your thinking is to change the way you ask questions. A lot of people you may have a boss or friend or spouse who will say, you know, what's the result of this? Or what's the answer? Or what's the point? So you're looking for one answer one point or one result. But if you can train yourself to look for our ask questions to solicit plural answers, like what are the answers to this? You've given me one, give me two more? Give me five? You know, give me six. And when you ask people to go beyond the first right answer, you know, the, they'll typically like give you the stock answer or the stock approach. But if you get to the third and fourth and fifth right answer, then you can get yourself in a place where you can be creative. And you know, maybe a lot of the work, there aren't practical, you know, that's another value. And you've got to be practical. But when you're generating ideas, it's important to look at five and six, and maybe 10, if you can, and that's where creativity really starts to open up. So you asked initially, you know, what are some tips for you know, the listeners here, I would say, again, don't fall in love with ideas. And another one is, you know, look for the second right answer. The 19th 20th century French philosopher Emile Shaikh of Shakti Arian, Simone, someone said, Nothing is more dangerous than an idea, when it's the only one you have, you know, because if you have a problem, you're gonna go right to that that may have solved your that may have solved the problem two years ago, or five years ago, or last week, but maybe conditions have changed. And so it's important to keep looking for additional right answers. You don't always do that. Roger.
Greg Voisen
And I also think in the world in which we live today with AI, and computers. Now, obviously, AI is relatively new to most people, but the ability to have it help you formulate, let's just call them ideas. I mean, look at it, you're looking at a vast array of knowledge that exists inside this machine that our minds just don't experience or have. Well, how do you think AI is going to affect or positively effect? I should say, I think it already has. We're seeing it in medicine. We're seeing it in all kinds of areas where it's actually accelerating processes for us to do. I don't want to exclude the fact that as human beings, we are part of the process. Do you can you outline for me? What do you think the good part will be? And possibly what the downside might be? Well, you've
Roger von Oech
already outlined a couple of the ones like, I have a neighbor who is involved in in medical fields and doing research and he's talking about how he's using AI to think of going beyond the first and 10 and even 20 right answers on a particular approach, you know, looking at some DNA solutions, you know, finding you know, hundreds of 1000s of answers and then sorting them out. So I certainly see that medicine. I think I'm with the vast majority of people who have just been awestruck by how quickly the AI explosion is hit us in the last year and a half, and it seems to be accelerating. And I see a lot of possible positive uses for it. I mean, I can remember 50 years ago, I worked for IBM and it was a great company then and they were, you know, they were getting resistance, we were getting resistance from companies like, we don't want to be taken over by computers and, and we were we, we learned to sell to them saying that it will solve a lot of your problems, financial inventory, invoicing, payroll, and on and on. And then since then, you know, the last, you know, 50 years computers didn't have many things. So I, I don't have any slick answers for you on where what IBM is going to do, I think a lot of it's hyped, but I think there's going to be a lot of good applications. Me personally, I, one thing I feel good about with this recent addition of a whack on the side of the head, and that is, I guess, there we go, is that no AI went into creating a ton, neither the illustrations nor the writing of it. And I think that in a you've got a program or a set of programs, you know, giving you prompts and giving you outlines how to do things, how to deal with telephone solicitors or deal with the IRS or how to file a complaint with the United Airlines, that can be a good thing. But I think there's still going to be a value for people who can write cogent paragraphs and pages of English and to express their ideas and learn how to do their own thinking. There's nothing quite like writing to find out, you know, what your own ideas are. And it's,
Greg Voisen
I think there's also this element of the way our brain works, you know, we've got a subconscious, especially when you're writing a goal or a vision or something for yourself, the connection between the subconscious and the hand on paper is huge. It's really a big element that people need to take a look at, hang on a second. And when I would say is that, you know, that is there, there is nothing like our own human brains, but to have it be augmented with AI is really good opportunity. Now, one of the things I know you've done is, you've said, Hey, used to put on these events used to travel the world, you spoke to all kinds of groups, you were everywhere. And as a result of that you got some pretty high profile clients. What did you do? Or could you advise people listening today, that were some of the common challenges that those companies face in fostering creativity that many of our listeners right now could be facing? And what did you do to help these companies navigate these challenges that they were experiencing?
Roger von Oech
Okay, well, that's, that's, that's a huge question. I'm often I was brought in, say a company might have a six month project that they were working on or a year long project or a reengineering project. And I'd often be brought in to deal with a group at the very beginning of that, to open up people's thinking so that they wouldn't immediately go to past solutions on how to solve you know how to manage a project more effectively, or how to develop, you know, this product. So, typically, I would be brought in early on to open up people's thinking, and I would share my creativity ideas, we'd often do work in a workshop fashion. And the way I would do my workshops is, I think you improve your ability to be creative, not by being lectured at, you do it by doing it. And so I would do a lot of exercises, both individual and group exercises, some dealing with problems way out in the blue, and some very focused in on, you know, what the content companies issues were, and as the day or half day or two days will go on and become more and more focused. If I could share a couple of things here. on that. You mentioned you wanted several tips. And I've mentioned so far, look for the second right answer, and don't fall in love with ideas. One of my favorite ways to get into a creative frame of mind is humor, I found that if you can make fun of a problem, make fun of an organization, make fun of your clients, whatever. It frees your thinking from a lot of deeply embedded assumptions. And I've seen this happen again. And again, we're early on with a client, I'd have them make offbeat and irreverent mottos for their company or for their products or companies as a way of freeing up their thinking. And I'll share just a couple of those with you that because I mean, I mean, I think it's important to you know, go ahead and be wacky you know, get into a crazy frame of mind and ask what's funny about what you're doing and again, a lot of people especially business people can get really serious like you know, we got a lot of money on the line here. We don't want to lose our customers we got competition. But if early on in the creative process, you can use a little humor really does it for example on I'll mention And a few of the companies that where I've done this and some of my favorite models have done a few things with Disney over the years, and they're offbeat and irreverent motto for Disney was the Walt Disney Company, the place where When you wish upon a star, we charge you for it. And
Greg Voisen
that's, yeah, that's certainly true.
Roger von Oech
or Microsoft, we're arrogant. And we should be. or Bank of America worked with well did a lot of work with a Bank of America over the years. And they're offbeat irreverent motto was, where you're not alone until you want a loan. The IRS has been a client. And their motto was, this is again created by their own people, the IRS service is part of our name. Just remember, it's the last part.
Greg Voisen
You know, it's you're getting people to be playful. And I think creativity comes from play. And I had this, you've heard this statistic and saw my listeners, so many times, between the ages of one and five, our levels of creativity, and maybe I was reading it in your book. They're like off the wall. But then we get programmed through the systems. And we lose our ability to create so much more. I don't know, you probably know the exact statistics and numbers. But I will tell you, it is phenomenal. The level of deprogramming that goes on after the age of five, to actually be creative. Do you want to kind of address that, because that's really the problem we're addressing is while we got stuck in a system?
Roger von Oech
Well, you know, again, we don't need to be creative for most of what we do. And you do, do need to learn how to do math and read and have a lot of practical skills. But I remember when I was a sophomore in high school, and my English teacher put a chalk up on the blackboard, you know, about the size of a penny. And as you know, the class of I guess we were all 16 years old. What that was, and we said it's a chalk on the blackboard and nobody said anything else. And then about a minute later, she followed that with the comment. Well, that's interesting. Yesterday, I did that same exercise with a group of kindergarteners. And they thought of 50 different things. It could be an animal's eye, it could be the top of a telephone pole, it could be a squash bug, it could be all these things. So between the ages of six and 16, we learned how to get the right answer, we'd learn how to be logical and practical. But we'd also lost a fair amount of our imaginative power. And the thing that I've noticed about creative people is that I can't say this, but all creative people have been a lot of them have good senses of humor, and they're playful, and they allow themselves to fool around with ideas and manipulate them. And, you know, as I was doing, as I, you know, would do in my seminars. I'll share just a few others at NASA. I've done probably five or six things with NASA over the years they're off BT motto was NASA we get it up? What are a few others? Yeah, Kimberly Clark, which is the paper products company, and theirs was we've got a product where a hole in your body. Computer, if you want to support you should have bought jockey anyway. If you can be irreverent with your own most hallowed ideas and basic beliefs, you know, it's it, it opens your mind up. And if I can continue answering this question for you in a little broader way, what I would do with companies and what I also recommend, I mean, a whack on the side of that gets into that. But over the last, I don't know, nearly half century, I've had a chance to work with a lot of creative people and individuals in a variety of industries and disciplines. And I've noticed a common pattern and how creative people would be able to generate and manage and apply new ideas. The hallmark of creative people is their mental flexibility, they're able to move in and out of different types of thinking depending on the needs of the situation at hand. And so sometimes they'd be open to probing and curious and looking all around. And sometimes they'd be off the wall and playful and you know, irreverent. But when it came time, they were able to be serious and discerning and faultfinding. And then finally, when it was necessary to implement an idea, they would be aggressive and persistent and trying to reach their objective. And so at least four different ways of thinking I gave the names of creative people were able to be an explorer, an artist, a judge, and a warrior. You know, again, explore artists judge and warrior. And so, a lot of what I would do in my seminars is to rekindle with artists of balance. And also this happens in the book, or the books and the various products that are created, you know, to tap into your explore again and be curious to look in place, you haven't looked a long time and you know, you even haven't even considered overlooking and do expect unexpected things. And as the artist to, you know, be off the wall are crazy and be foolish and humorous, and, you know, look for a lot of right answers. And as the judge, you know, to be serious and critical, but also build up off of, you know, some of the odd ideas, and then finally, to be the warrior, and that is, you know, get your idea to action. And I would develop these skills with people have them recognize their own creative ability, or their creative style. And it's important. Some people do,
Greg Voisen
would you call those Rogers kind of the archetypes of people for in that area? Or are these just whatever you call labels that you put on why you
Roger von Oech
call them create a market types, I mean, I've written, I wrote a whole book about that my second book was called a kick in the seat of the pants using your explore artists judging warrior, you know, to be more creative. And the latest edition of wack in the side of the head has, you know, a lot of that material in the back of using the four rules. And, you know, the thing I would tell people is that some people get stuck in one or two roles all the time, especially at work you get stuck is the judge, and someone brings an odd idea to you and say that stinks, it sucks, or suck in a work as opposed to saying, Well, hey, what if we applied a creative node or that what if we try to look for something you know, a little better on that or say, that's an interesting idea, but maybe it's an idea that would have worked better three years ago, and then you know, life was moved on. Or a lot of people, especially salespeople can get into this world, they're always in Warrior mood, you know, like, I gotta get out and do the sale, and that's what they're getting paid to do. But if you can open up their explorers, and their artists, you know, to, you know, consider some alternative closing approaches or ways to find customers, that that would be to their benefit as well. So,
Greg Voisen
well, I, I think that as somebody who's as creative as you've been, and help others be coming creative, I'm sure my listeners would love to hear a couple stories about businesses that you work with, where maybe some irrelevant or odd idea turned out to be some groundbreaking solution. Because, you know, what I find is, what's relatable for me is when an author or a thought leader tells a story of what happened, it actually clicked something in my brain, it's like, there's something that fires because stories are so compelling. So I'd love for you to tell a story or two, about, you know, clients, you work for things that happen, and really an example of how it just became a total breakthrough.
Roger von Oech
Well, I guess one example, a few years ago, working with a pretty large semiconductor company, and it was a group working on a project and they had an eight-month timeline, and you had the engineers there, but also the marketing people. And at the beginning of the project, everybody had their agendas, how they were going to go about doing it, and were able to break down the various issues and eventually got some marketing and engineering, you know, the marketing representing what the customers what the clients wanted, you know, out in the field, and what engineering was capable of doing, getting them to talk to each other, and eventually getting that product, that project manager in significantly less time. Some other examples, sometimes, you can have a successful session where you realize that you've already solved the problem, he hadn't even realized it, or maybe this is what the customer wanted. Or maybe you're spending too much time. You know, in some of the some of the places that I've been talking about, like being the Explorer on the artist. Those would be you know, those will be a few things where I've done that. I've helped some companies come up with offbeat names or names for products I can't really talk about, there's some things I can't talk about. I should say that as well. That's
Greg Voisen
important to know. Well. So you do talk about feedback in this creative process, right? And indeed, and what's the most effective way to use this feedback that we either get from constituents or from the public or from wherever we might be seeking? What I would call this feedback loop. Okay, here's my idea. What do you think here's blah, blah, blah. What do you think, to enhance rather than stifle creative ideas as you said in the book, in other words, this feedback loop can be used quite poorly. positively? How can our listeners use it? And how effective is it been in helping your clients actually achieve success? Well,
Roger von Oech
I mean, you get feedback from a variety of, you know, from your own group, from your customers, say, from upper management. So, I guess a couple of things I would say is, when, if you're getting feedback from your customers, I take great, great, you know, attention to that. And sometimes, you know, is his Jobs used to say about ideas, sometimes we customer doesn't even know what he or she wants. And so we're going to create it. So you may pay less attention there. This was Apple A long time ago. But I think it's important to listen to your customers, when you're working with other people say, in your group, with your bosses or even in your family. One thing, one thing that I stressed with, with individuals is try the creative know, the creative note, that's N O, not K and O W. And the way it works is if you're especially when you're going to partnership, if somebody comes to you have an idea, and you don't like it, you just can't dismiss it, but you you can or you can dismiss it, but it's also your responsibility to come up with a new idea that both people like and I picked this up from a friend from a long time ago, the playwright Jerome Lawrence, he wrote name and the night throw spent in jail, and, and so on. And he worked with his his partner in writing plays with Robert Lee. And they often found themselves in the situation where one person would have an idea and another, you know, wouldn't like it so much. And so their, their deal was that, again, if you had an idea that the other person didn't, like, you couldn't just reject it, you had to keep working and turning it over until you came up with an idea that both people liked it. Another thing to do is, if somebody comes to you with an idea, and it doesn't quite fit in, try to give yourself 60 seconds before saying anything negative about the new idea, you know, again, we people our reaction, you know, we, you know, if someone says something to you, and you react all the time, and you know, if an idea is weird or strange, you often your first reaction will be it doesn't fit in our budget and won't work. But if you wait 60 seconds, you might be able to create a context where the idea makes some sense, or at least part of it, or at least, you know, develop it a little bit. And so that, you know, you haven't killed the person bringing it as well. So those are a couple of things that would think. But again, getting back to your question, you know, we're getting feedback all the time from a lot of different places, but at least close in with your colleagues, your spouse, your family members, and so on. If you can remember the creative know, you know, like, you know, what do we want to do for holidays, you know, we need to build on those ideas. And also to wait 60 seconds of an idea is really bad before dismissing it. It's hard to do, but it's a good practice to get into, especially when you're in the early parts of the creative process.
Greg Voisen
Well, it's sage advice, I think, for people, regardless, your book is filled in the sage advice, anybody like yourself, who's had a book that's been written and sold millions of copies? Obviously, people are buying I hope is
Roger von Oech
in addition to be safe out? Oh, it's fun. You know, I hope it's practical. I mean, that's the key thing, you know, you know, it's stuff that people can use, it's been interesting. When you create a product, or in this case, a book, and you send it out into the world, it's interesting to see what kind of reaction you get. And over the years, probably half the while I used to get mail letters, but you know, in the last 20 years, five years is email and you know, sometimes a text or two but, but the reaction probably half of its been from business people, like you know, we used it with our group, and it solved this problem and so on. But even more enjoyable has been the reaction I've gotten from coaches and ministers and high school students who picked up a whack in the side of the head and said, Oh, yeah, this was good. And I looked helped me look at my problem in different ways. So it's reach not only a business audience, it's also reached a more general audience. And I've had a lot of past clients, you know, maybe some people in their 40s, who would pick up the book, read it used in the group, and then they would give it to their son or daughter in college or high school. And, you know, that's also another thing. WACC has been used in a lot of collegiate courses, you know, in entrepreneurship and design and psychology and so on. So that you
Greg Voisen
have, you have quite a reputation that follows you and it's, it's a good one and I'm so pleased to have you on the show. Now to wrap up our interview. I have a question kind of a final question. You know, you talk about the rule Wise fool. Can you give an example of when you played this role to challenge conventional thinking effectively? So in other words, if somebody out there was going to play the role of the wise fool, what would that be Roger?
Roger von Oech
Oh, I love the wise. I mean, I should say when somebody will hear hear the term pool, they think of the crazy the stupid person. There's two kinds of fools, there's the young fool usually, that's the person who doesn't know any better, you know what to do. And then the wise fool who has been around a while, and whose role generally is to break to get people to walk in the sun ahead to break set, you know, you get in a group situation, everyone's looking at a problem in a particular way. And it's the wise fools role. This is what the role he performed at court to frame an idea in a different way, for example, you know, the, he might say something such as if we see a man backwards on a horse, riding backwards on a horse, why did we say that the man's backwards and not the horse, or, you know, just kind of flip things, you know, on their heads? The why school use humor, I've been talking about this, the why school will use the second right answer the third right answer, we're looking for things, but trying to inject a little humor into it. People can get really, really serious about a lot of stuff. And we've seen this, I don't know, through the pandemic, what we're at, anyway, with the last five years, let's say the last five or eight years, and I think there's, there have been times when there's been a call to conform to certain ways of thinking, and I think the wise fool someone who will challenge that, you know, like, why is this particular administrator or bureaucrat saying this? What if we took a different point of view? What if we challenge that point of view? And I do, I did that a lot. My one of my grandchildren was over this morning, and she's six years old, and we're out walking around and playing. And I said, what are some funny things we can, you know, see about nature or how this leaf is doing or what this banana slug is doing? And you know, if you had just had that humerus, or going beyond the first dried answer approach, I think that's a good way to get into the wise, full frame of mind. I think the wise fool encompasses the three things that I talked about earlier on, not falling in love the way you're already doing things, don't fall in love with ideas, looking for the second right answer. And then using humor, you know, to, to look at things a little differently. So I'll finish that up by saying, I started my business a long time ago, in 1977, I was young, I had gotten my doctorate from Stanford and a field called the history of ideas. 70s were 60s and 70s. Were different time, as you know, and and so I was really interested in ideas. And then I went to work at IBM for a couple years. And the thing that I noticed is that at IBM, all of my clients, my customers were really smart. They knew what they were doing. But their thinking was really narrow. Because of the needs of that technology, they had to do things in a certain way. And, and so I said, I see a need for a service, set of consultancy approaches that would open up people's thinking, you know, in business? Well, most people in business, when they go back to school, they get MBAs and so they get more of the same and most people with degrees in philosophy, you know, we're off driving taxis or teaching at small colleges, what have you. But I had this interesting combination of having a background in the history of ideas and also having some business experience at a pretty high level do you want to with enterprise businesses, so I said, I'm gonna create a business to stimulate creativity in business, I'm going to be a fool, I am going to be a wise fool. And everybody said, I was crazy to do that, and you're not gonna make any money. But I put the business together in a way that I will help companies, you know, solve problems, deal issue, you know, deal with issues. I wasn't selling creativity to business I was selling what creativity did for businesses. In other words, higher productivity meetings, or projects managed in six months, rather than, you know, 10 months or new products, you know, 20 new ideas rather than just five. And so I found a pretty good audience initially with technology companies, but then you know, around the world, so I've tried to live the wise fool or embrace that. With my books, my seminars. I mentioned that I've produced seven conferences and the early 80s had people such as Bob Metcalf, the inventor of Ethernet and Steve Jobs and Nolan Bushnell who founded Atari and Bill gates and Trip Hawkins who founded Electronic Arts, and on and on, but on past that, you know, creating apps and software. And for the last, well, almost 20 years, I've been a toy designer. And you mentioned at the top of the program, that you have a, you had a ball of wax, I mean, this is a product that has been a million seller in it's, it's a creativity tool in a ball, it breaks into 30 different pieces. But I had to learn about how to do that, you know, I've created a variety of others, I guess some of these will show up. But I think that the key thing is, is to put yourself in situations where you can use the wise fool and you to use your creativity, abilities, creative abilities, and to keep challenging things. And I think you'll have a fulfilled life, you know, I'm getting well,
Greg Voisen
I'm actually glad that Roger von Oech took this actual trip down creativity path because not that there are other people, but you're very well known for what you do. And I want to thank you for being on insight, personal growth, I don't want to thank you for sharing not only your stories, but actually giving people advice and some ideas about if they get stuck, this is what you should do and how you might want to think. And I'm going to tell all my listeners, very easy, just go to Amazon, this is the new book, it's the revised and updated version of the book, which is there, we'll put a link to that as well. We'll put a link to Roger’s website. So you can actually go out there you can see some of the toys he's graded, can see some things you can actually buy these on Amazon as well. These are available, so you can get that with it. Well, get A Whack on the Side of the Head. Thank you Roger von Oech for being on the show. Appreciate it. Appreciate you and all that you're doing and all you've done over the years to help people be more creative and more innovative.
Roger von Oech
Thank you so much. Pleasure to be with you, Greg. Thank you for the opportunity.
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Inside Personal Growth with Greg Voisen · Podcast 1135: The “6-Minute” Books with Dr. Jonathan SuIn today’s episode, I had the pleasure of speaking with Dr. Jonathan Su, a renowned physical therapist, yoga therapist, and fitness coach based in the San Francisco Bay Area. Dr. Su shared his invaluable insights on fitness, core strength, and knee pain cure emphasizing the transformative power of strength training and concise, effective workouts.
Dr. Su’s journey from the U.S. Army to becoming a fitness coach for older adults highlighted a significant shift in his patient demographic. Transitioning from working with young, fit soldiers to primarily serving clients over 60, Dr. Su noticed a gap in knowledge regarding the body’s changing needs with age. This inspired him to author books like “6-Minute Fitness at 60+” and “6-Minute Core Strength” and the latest “6-Minute Knee Pain Cure“.
A key takeaway from Dr. Su’s approach is the concept of minimal, impactful exercise. He advocates for just six minutes of targeted exercise daily, which research shows can significantly enhance muscle mass and overall strength. This approach is particularly beneficial for older adults whose primary fitness goals often revolve around maintaining independence, functionality, and preventing falls.
Dr. Su explained that as we age, we naturally lose muscle mass and balance, which can increase the risk of falls. However, this can be mitigated through strength training. He recommends exercises like chair squats and heel lifts, which can be alternated in high-intensity interval training (HIIT) sessions to build strength efficiently.
Additionally, Dr. Su debunked common misconceptions about core training. Contrary to popular belief, exercises like sit-ups and crunches are not necessary and can even be harmful. Instead, he promotes safer, more effective exercises that maintain a straight spine and build core strength without risking injury.
For those who spend long hours sitting, Dr. Su suggested simple yet effective solutions like performing heel lifts to stimulate circulation and mitigate the negative effects of prolonged sitting. He emphasized that movement, no matter how small, is crucial for maintaining health.
In essence, Dr. Su’s insights offer a practical, manageable approach to fitness for older adults. By focusing on short, effective workouts and understanding the body’s needs, anyone can enhance their vitality and enjoy a more active, fulfilling life well into their later years. Learn more about Dr. Su and his works by visiting his website at sixminutefitness.com.
You may also refer to the transcripts below for the full transciption (not edited) of the interview.
Interview Transcipt -Not EditedEmailDownloadNew TabGreg Voisen
Welcome back to Inside Personal Growth. This is Greg Voisen, the host of Inside Personal Growth. And joining me from the San Francisco Bay Area is Dr. Jonathan Su. And he is a physical therapist and a yoga therapist and fitness coach. Good day to you, Jonathan, how you doing?
Dr. Jonathan Su
I'm doing great, Greg, thanks for having me.
Greg Voisen
It's good to have you on the show. Because we have a plethora of things to speak about. And I'm going to show my listeners just he's got three books, but they're all based around the six minutes, right? So 6-Minute Fitness at 60+. And he's got another one called 6-minute Core Strength and he's got another one that interested me because I had a knee injury, the 6-minute Knee Pain Cure. Well, it's a pleasure having you on I'm gonna let our listeners know a little bit about you. As I said, it's physical therapists yoga therapists fitness coach based in the Bay Area. Its clients include entrepreneurs, executives and elite athletes. A former US Army officer. He was officer in charge of injury prevention, rehabilitation and performance optimization for the 25th Infantry Division. Thank you for your service, by the way, appreciate that. He is the co-author of clinical textbook, nutters orthopedic clinical examination and the author of the six minute 50 Sit. Next minute fitness at 60. And the six minute core strength. He serves the fitness panel expert for bottom line, personal and most widely circulated consumer newsletter in the United States. And when he's not busy, said, working with clients, you can find him exploring on the wall restaurants and spending quality time outdoors with his family. Well, pleasure to meet you. Thank you for being on. And thank you. Yeah, thank you for you know, sharing your knowledge and wisdom. I think there there's probably 1000s of listeners that listening to this now that are probably seeing physical therapists. You know, they've had some injury, they've maybe gotten a little older in life, maybe they're not maybe it's just a sports injury for you know, many of people who play soccer on the weekends and they have an injury, and they need it. So what really inspired you to write this six minute fitness? It's 60. We'll focus on that verse. For individuals over 60 years old is that when you were seeing people have more injuries, or less mobility?
Dr. Jonathan Su
So that's a great question. What happened was, my wife and I decided to leave the army about seven years ago. And so all of a sudden, well, what we wanted to do was we wanted to start a family and we didn't want to, you know, be deployed for nine to 12 months at a time we wanted. I wanted to be around for my kids to grow up. So, when I left the army, all of a sudden my patient populations shifted from being young, you know, soldiers who are in shape, super fit to now being mostly 60 plus years. And one of the things I realized was that, you know, no one gave us a user's manual for the human body, as we get older, our bodies change as we get older, and sociate, the way we maintain our bodies, and no one ever told us these things, like, for example, after 60, you lose two to 3% of your muscle mass every year, unless you do strength training. And heck, you know, you can actually still grow muscle, even in your 90s. And I found myself consistently repeating these things to my clients. And I thought, you know, I should just write a book about this, because this is something that people need to know, this should be standard knowledge that we all have.
Greg Voisen
Yeah. And I think, you know, I happen to be listened to a podcast, and I subscribed to it. Dr. Peter Atea, you know, and he gets pretty detailed into things. But he was talking about the older population the other day, just like what you said the same thing, but he had this chart. And he said, for you to sustain a healthy life into your 90s strength training is the most important thing, right? So in other words, lifting weights, even if it's small weights consistent, because the muscle mass after 70. And so maybe I should know this, I'm going to be 70 years old, tomorrow is my birthday. You know, you need to do this. Now I go to the gym three to four times a week, and I lift weights, but not super heavyweights, right, just enough to know that, you know, I can lift the boxes and do the things that I need to do. And I think that's important. So can you explain this concept of six minute fitness? Because most people are like, Oh, good. If I could do it in six minutes, I'll do it. Now. I don't spend six minutes in the gym, I'm in there an hour and a half. But what can people get out of six minutes if they're 60 and older? Yeah,
Dr. Jonathan Su
so, one of the other things I realized was that this population, their goals for fitness is much different than, you know, a 30 or 40 year old, you know, that are trying to, you know, maybe some are, but most of them aren't trying to go to the beach to look good. Most of them are just trying to stay independent and functional and feel good, right. And really to achieve that you don't need a lot of time at the gym, you don't need to exercise a whole lot. And in fact, there's a lot of research showing that six minutes of exercise is enough to change your body.
Greg Voisen
So when you say six minutes, how does the program help improve now one of the things that happens with older people is their gait. And all physical therapists see this because then that's a fall risk. And then for a fall risk, then they could break a hip, or they could break. They could break a leg anything. But the reality is, is that that is the biggest factor for people being hospitalized. So what do you do to help people improve balance, and prevent them being a fall risk, and making sure that their gait stays the same?
Dr. Jonathan Su
Yeah, so there's, there's a lot involved, right, because as we get older, certain things change, for example, we start taking medications that may, you know, affect our blood pressure and you know, may bring on dizziness for some people, which may make them a fall risk and you know, our muscles, we lose muscle mass, our balance starts to you know, wane our nerves, the nerves that come out of our spine that goes to the muscle starts to thin out, so we have less control of our muscles. And a lot of these things we can't change. But the one thing we can change is our muscle mass and our strength. And so for people who are concerned about falls, because of their balance, and you know, gait issues, the foundation of that is to build strength, because that's the one thing you have control of.
Greg Voisen
And so what kind of results if somebody picks up this book, and they read this because you have one on core strength, and then you just have this one, which is about fitness. Now this is the thickest one. So it has more information in it than the other books. But what could they expect to have happen if they follow the advice you have in that book? If someone 60 picks this up and says, Hey, this is fitness over 60 in six minutes? What are some of the things are going to be doing? Like sit ups push ups, jumping jacks? I mean, tell us what what you have in mind.
Dr. Jonathan Su
Yeah, so um, so a lot of the exercises, I noticed that a lot of my older adults perform, they're not really optimal for their age. Personally, I wouldn't recommend situps for older adults, and the reason why is because a lot of that for bending can cause disc herniations lower back injuries. And in fact, a lot of reason Research shows that you actually don't need situps to build core strength anymore. You can have a straight spine and still build abdominal muscles. And so an older adult who hops on to this program, they can expect to improve their strength, their energy, and their balance in about 15 days, if they follow the plan. Now, the reason why that works is because, you know, Japanese researchers for decades now have discovered, you know, the whole the whole Tabata method of fitness, basically high intensity interval training. And high intensity doesn't mean that you're pounding the ground really hard, it doesn't even mean that you're, you know, pushing yourself to the limits, it just means you're, you're training a little harder than you're used to. And the alternate that with, with less intense exercises. So for example, I would have someone do cheer squats for 2030 reps. And then they would do a lower intensity exercise like heel lifts for 2030 reps. And they would alternate back and forth between these two exercises for about six minutes. And that's been shown this type of exercise has been shown to be the most effective and the quickest way to build muscle mass and strength and older adults.
Greg Voisen
So what about it, just giving it somebody's out there today and stretching because you know, one of the biggest injuries that occurs and obviously, as a physical therapist, you see this as somebody doesn't stretch before an exercise. And also, and I know, I bet you 90% of the population doesn't stretch before doing exercise, because that just seems to be Oh, I don't need to stretch, nor do they stretch after the exercise, which I think is recommended as well. And the other thing would be something like yoga, you know, yoga, tai chi, any of these kinds of things where you're giving the body movement, where do you stand as a physical therapist, or having exercises like that, which are low impact, but more stretching exercises, actually be able to obtain the results that you'd want somebody to obtain?
Dr. Jonathan Su
Yeah, those are great exercises, and I love them. Tai Chi yoga, Pilates. The challenge, though, is that many of those routines, they're not pushing the body, they're not pushing the muscles aren't enough through its full range of motion. In order to build the strength most older adults need I would say those are great supplements. But the foundation to fitness is to build muscle mass. And the best way to do that is to take your muscles to a full range of motion, repeatedly with resistance.
Greg Voisen
So when you say resistance, are you saying weight resistance,
Dr. Jonathan Su
you can start with bodyweight resistance. And it depends on what your goal is. If you want to build, you know, I think for most adults, they can, at some point when they can lift their body weight 30 or 40 times repeatedly without any issues, they should put on some resistance, five pounds, 10 pounds something really light, because what you do is you start to build even more muscle and the more muscle you have, of course, to a certain limit, the more buffer you have against, you know falls. And also, if you ever get sick or hospitalized, what happens is your body starts to metabolize your muscle for fuel. And so you start losing a lot of muscle mass, because of you know, being sick or injured or in hospital. And a lot of people come out and you know, with a lot of fatigue and issues, some of them came in and walk after three days in the hospital. So we can build an extra buffer of muscle, then you can prevent all those issues from happening.
Greg Voisen
It's interesting because I have a machine called Total Gym. And it works on its own bodies less leverage. So the way the machine moves up and down, and I'm sure you've probably seen one and pulleys, but it's your own bodyweight. So in essence, what you're doing is by leveraging you're pulling your own body weight, but as the higher you leverage it, the greater it is, the harder it becomes. And it's been a great thing for me, I've actually enjoyed the machine and I stopped using it to go to the gym. But I think I could get just as much of a workout, honestly, on that Total Gym as I'm getting in the gym itself. And this brings me to core strength. You know, when I go to gym, I see people doing a lot of squats. And then I see them doing where they're just they got their arms out and they're building their core strength because this is around core strength where you can see him standing there for or I should say, kind of lying there but with their stomachs up, or what they call that move for about, let's say five minutes, right and What is the core strength? What are some of the misconceptions about core training that you would talk about? And how can you help people? Increase that in the six minutes? Because everything is six minutes, right? I think if I could hold that position for six minutes, I'd be doing pretty good.
Dr. Jonathan Su
Yeah, you know, the one of the biggest misconceptions about core strength is that you have to do sit ups. And what's interesting, if you look at all the exercises in my core strength book, and I think there's over 30 of them, there's not one set up in there. And the reason why is because, you know, the main muscle that's actually working when you're doing situps is your hip flexor muscles, not your abdominals. Yep, that was to get worked, but mostly hip flexor muscles. And additionally, when there's that for bending of the spine, if you do that repeatedly, and I just had a patient recently that I saw, that had, you know, you know, he got a disc herniation as a result, in a lot of pain cat can't do much right now. And, in fact, can't do much for the next few months. His program was essentially doing about 100 Sit ups every day, and then one day boom, sort of caught up with them. So you don't need to do sit ups, or to bend your spine forward in order to build core strength, and crunches. Same thing. In fact, in my opinion, crunches are even worse, because what you're doing with crunches is you're really curving that trunk for it. And every time you do that, if you do that repeatedly, you know, the disk is like a, like a jelly doughnut starts to get squeezed. And I mean, it's okay, if you're, if you're doing that, you know, maybe once or twice a week, but if you're doing that daily, without any rest, there's no time for your discs to heal, and to recover from that compression.
Greg Voisen
So what is this difference between core awareness and core bracing? As you talk about it in your workouts? I don't think any of my listeners have probably heard of that.
Dr. Jonathan Su
Yeah, so, you know, art are the human body's very intelligent. And so what's supposed to happen is that as you go to go pick up something, your your course was automatically tighten, to protect you. But I think what's happened, you know, and I'm not sure exactly why, but I think it's because we sort of live in this modern world where we're sort of, you know, not tune with our bodies anymore, as much as we used to be, because we don't have to use our bodies in the same way. We've sort of forgotten that. So a lot of my patients that I see with low back pain, they just don't have that awareness, or that sort of reaction that we they need to protect the core, which is core bracing, which is basically a stiffening of the core muscles before they go and bend and lift something. And so that's what core bracing is. And what I found was that you can't just tell someone, hey, brace your core, brace your core, because they don't know how to do it's like telling someone to bend a spoon with your mind, you know, and that spoon with your mind, you know, and it's like impossible. So they're trying really hard mentally to do something, but they can't. And that's how it feels to try to brace your core, when you don't have core awareness. And so one of the things I realized was that the first thing we have to develop before developing core bracing is core awareness. allowing the person to understand where their core muscles are, and how do you actually turn them on?
Greg Voisen
Mm hmm. It's very interesting. You know, one of the things I think that older people do, and younger people do way too much on, including myself. And they say the, you know, it's almost like smoking a pack of cigarettes a day. I have a standing desk here. And I have an electric one that goes up and down, right? But the number of times it goes up is far less than the amount that it's actually down. So right now I'm sitting here with you, in a chair, on a cushion that I had I bought this special thing that's supposed to be good for your back. What would you recommend for people? I mean, there's still tons of people in their 60s Plus, that are working, that are sitting at chairs all day long. And I think if there's anything that's probably worse for you, it's just the amount of sitting that we do. What kind of things can they do in between this core strength that can help them you know, be more I always, I always say to myself, Man, I'm not sitting up straight. You know, like, if I was really sitting up straight, I'd be like this during the whole interview, right? But I'm not. I'm like this or I'm like that. So some tips because the reality is, it's a major challenge.
Dr. Jonathan Su
It is it is and you know, what happens when you're sitting for a prolonged period of time, you know, 30 minutes or more is that your metabolism starts to slow down and you're When sugar level increases, your blood cholesterol level increases. There's all these, you know, health effects that happen. And the easiest solution honestly, is to be able to get up and move every 20 or 30 minutes or so. But that's difficult, right? If you're working, and there's deadlines, there's no way you can be going out and walking around for five or 10 minutes every 30 minutes. But what's interesting is that there's there's new research now showing how if you just pump the calf muscles, the deep muscles of your calf, by doing a simple heel lift, while you're sitting, that will actually reverse a lot of the negative effects of sitting.
Greg Voisen
So there's really, that's very interesting. So I just started doing what you're saying on the bar below me on my desk. And you really can feel it on your calves like right away I got to do is four or five of them and you feel it. So is that increasing the circulation in your body? That should be? Because yes, it is. Yeah. Okay. Yeah,
Dr. Jonathan Su
absolutely. So the deep cap calf muscles called the soleus muscle. They are known as the second heart. Every time you walk, that muscle pumps and uh, circulates blood from your legs back to your heart. And we need that because our hearts all the way up here, right. And gravity pulls all that blood and fluid down to our legs, especially if you're you're sitting or standing statically for a prolonged period of time. And so the easiest way to get that fluid and blood back to the heart is to pump that muscle and our bodies designed to do that. I mean, our bodies were designed to move, not to sit for hours and hours. I
Greg Voisen
know I mean, we've the whole Agricultural Age versus this industrial age. And now the digital age is really put people stuck behind desks and computer screens. So you know, I'm, I'm reflecting on what you just said, about moving the calf muscles, right? If you can't get up from the chair, because you're stuck there, you've got to do whatever you've got to do. I think that's, that's wonderful advice. What are some specific core exercise that? Did you kind of include in the book? And how do they benefit kind of the overall health of people? Because these are things that my listeners are wanting to know. So what specific core exercise to have them that you could give our listeners that they could start trying? Yeah,
Dr. Jonathan Su
absolutely. So. So firstly, I'd like to just quickly define the core. And I guess a very general definition of the core, are the deep muscles of our bodies that help support our joints and our spine. So if you think about it, that's really important. Because we have two types of muscles in our body, we have stabilizers and movers. We're more familiar with the movers, these are the big muscles, like our, our thigh muscles in our chest muscles in our muscles, that helps us move our limbs, but deeper to those muscles, they're these tiny muscles that wrap around our joints that actually protect the joints, keep them in line. And so the reason why core strength is so important is because, you know, we need to protect our our joints. And especially, you know, if we look at the number of people with back pain these days as this is the number one chronic pain issue that we have. And I think one of the issues is because we've sort of lost awareness of our core muscles around the trunk. And so in my opinion, two of the most important exercises we can, we can do are just simply doing a core bracing exercise while laying on your back. And then just kind of bringing your legs up into like a tabletop position while keeping the fact flat. Yeah, real simple.
Greg Voisen
And if people want to get more information about this, and I'm going to remind him right now, just go to his website, six minute fitness.com. There, you can learn more about the books. You have access to this. Do you actually have any videos out there showing anybody like on YouTube or anything about that? Or is it just all in the books?
Dr. Jonathan Su
Yeah, so the books will have illustrations, and then there's also links to videos for each of the exercises. That's
Greg Voisen
important for people to know. Now, I know one of the things that happens, Jonathan, and I hear this frequently. amongst people, you know, in my age category is cramps, leg cramps, like calf, in particular. And a lot of times when they're sleeping. Now it doesn't seem to affect me, but it does my wife, but I hear this not only from my wife but from other people. And so what do you tell people to do? That could help prevent that and I know it could be lactic acid induced there could be lots of reasons why Why? And you know more about this than I do. But what would you tell somebody who's regularly getting leg cramps? And some people? It's very debilitating?
Dr. Jonathan Su
Yeah, it can be. And it's very interesting, because when they've done research to determine what is the cause of these type of cramps, Dave, they're inconclusive. They can't pinpoint a specific reason. Right. Some of them will, you know, they looked into like, you know, like, electrolytes and levels, and it just, they can't really pinpoint it. So what I found with my patients with cramps is, you know, sorry, and the other thing is, they also looked at hydration. And that's not consistent either. That's not consistent related.
Greg Voisen
So they can't, they can't tell, because I watched the documentary just the other night. And you may have seen it about Celine Dion, she has this stiff person syndrome. And they actually showed her going through these episodes of what would happen in her whole body would just like stiffen up everything. I mean, like literally, and it was really hard to watch, because she can barely walk now she's having a hard time she's with physical therapists, these people are doing everything they can to try and get her back to where she is. She's lost her voice. Crazy, but there aren't that many people, fortunately, that have stiff person syndrome. Right? Right.
Dr. Jonathan Su
I've actually had one patient recently with stiff person syndrome, and it is debilitating. It's like their whole body, every muscle in their bodies just like in pain. And do they
Greg Voisen
know what causes it? I mean, it doesn't seem like it's there's any diagnosis of it, really. I mean, there's a diagnosis of it, but the treatment of it is they don't know what to do.
Dr. Jonathan Su
Yeah, they don't it's, you know, they know it's a neurological issue. Most likely, you know, when something affects the entire body like that is usually like a central nervous system type issue. But I don't think they've pinpointed exactly what it is and how it happens and how to cure it.
Greg Voisen
But you want to talk about severe leg cramping? Yes, those people have leg cramps that are just, they go on for literally 10 minutes.
Dr. Jonathan Su
Yeah. So, you know, that's, that's a tough one. And I've had patients with that. And the way I think about it is like there can be all these different causes of leg cramps. And if we can make adjustments to one potential cause we can reduce the severity and the duration of the leg cramps. And one thing to try is just some gentle stretching, because what happens is, then now you sort of decrease the neurological tone of the muscle, meaning the rate that the nerves are firing to keep that muscle sort of contracted, you know, the muscles are kind of they have a pulse too. So the nervous system is constantly pinging the muscles to keep them at a certain tone. So even when you're relaxed, there's a tongue. But I think what happens with some people is that that tone is a little too high. And so then it's easier for the muscles to cramp. So I would just do gentle stretching. So instead of the muscles being like this all the time, and all you need is a little bit input to really have them cramp. Now the muscles are like this, and they don't crap this off, and then then I would explode the other issues also like electrolyte levels, hydration levels, and then just start to knock out each of these little things.
Greg Voisen
Well, let's get into this one, because this is you talk about 60 year olds, you don't have to be 60 to get knee pain, or shoulder pain or neck pain, or any of those pains. But this one focuses in on knee pain. And I'm glad you did that. What led you to write it? And why did you post? So focus specifically on knee pain? In particular? And I would think, yes, for 60 year olds, yes. For sports injury people, yes. But for the common person, maybe not dealing with lot of knee pain.
Dr. Jonathan Su
Yeah, so you know, it's interesting knee pain is actually the second most common chronic issue we have in America. And they say, one in four Americans will have knee pain at some point in their life. The reason why I decided to write that book was because I suffered a devastating knee injury when I was 15 years old, and I had a surgeon orthopedic surgeon told me that by the time I was in my 30s, I would need a knee replacement. He told me that I wouldn't be able to, you know, be active in my life. And I'm in my mid 40s now and I have zero knee pain. I still have a very important ligament missing my knees so unstable. And yet I can still run around without any issues. I go running I lift weights. And so, you know, encountering so many people with knee pain as a physical therapist. I saw that they you know a lot of their knee pain could be resolved by I think the challenge is that unless you've been through this type of pain, and you also happen to have training in movement, it's hard to kind of really figure out exactly what you need to do. So I decided to write that book.
Greg Voisen
And so if you can describe the types of exercise and say, here's the most important point in the book that would help us alleviate or even better yet, the exercises we would do, that would be preventative exercises. For us even having the knee pain in the first place. I think part of the issue is we take for granted, just we take so much for granted, but we really take our legs for granted, right? It's like, okay, I get up, I move around, I've been so used to having him walk me around this place for 1000s and 1000s of miles in my lifetime, right. But we don't really do specific exercises for our knees, other than running, walking, right? Maybe going to the gym and lifting some weights that are designed to build the calf muscles. Or I should say, the the what's a large muscle at the top here? I'm just trying to be quadriceps, the quadriceps. Yeah, those those muscles in particular. So your book includes exercises that I would say would be prescriptive, right? Where you could help somebody what are those?
Dr. Jonathan Su
Yeah, so So that's a great question. And you know, you're right, our knees take an impact. And they take the most impact out of any joint in our body, every time we take a step, when we walk it, we put about two to three times our body weight on our knees, every time you run, you put much more than that, like five to 10 times. And so now imagine, right, the average American maybe walks two miles a day, that's about 4000 steps, that's 2000 impacts on one knee every single day. And what happens after years, is that we start to have knee pain is you know, you you'll go to your doctor and they'll Your doctor will say, hey, you need to exercise more Go Go start walking, and two weeks into the walk. Right? People start
Greg Voisen
over how many people is that? osteoarthritis? I don't want to go down the path. But yeah, you know, obviously, you treat a lot of people with osteoarthritis, I'll bet you and they may have it in their hands, they may have their knee, they may have it in his shoulder. So that's inflammatory in nature. So as a PT, I know you're there doing work to move people through it. But aren't you advising them about what they could do to reduce the inflammation?
Dr. Jonathan Su
Well, that's assuming there is inflammation. Because you're right. You know, when there's a postfix of itis, like osteoarthritis, that means there's inflammation but but how do they know there's arthritis? I mean, when you take an x ray of a knee, you can't see arthritis? No, that's true. Right? You can see, like, you know, you know, maybe some development of spurs, you know, thickening of the bone that would indicate, you know, normal wear and tear, but that doesn't really point to what's causing the pain. And what I found was working with so many patients with these really like horrible X rays, right? Like, oh, my gosh, like yes, V or bone on bone arthritis. Once they start doing the types of exercises that, you know, I've been doing weekly on my own body, their their pain starts to reduce. And so, you know, I mean, if you think about it, what's what's what we're really lacking in our culture is this whole idea of having a maintenance program for our bodies. In fact, most of us take better care of our cars than we do our bodies. Right. And so, so we'll say, right, we'll go run, we'll go walk, we'll go lift weights at the gym, but these activities are actually putting mileage on our knees. And what we need to counteract that our tune up exercises, like tune ups for you know, we, we do for our cars, to rebalance our muscles to reduce the stress on our knees. And so the type of exercises that I I've sort of introduced to people are these type of exercises. Let me give you one example of that. So for example, every time you take a step, the key muscles that is contracting, why show
Greg Voisen
people, here's some of the pictures in the book. So this as a guy sitting in a chair, right? And you're showing some exercises here. Roll in a few inches in each direction, move to a different section of the muscle. And in this case, you have a guy that has a roller bar. It's got like a little roller thing behind his the back of his knee. Yeah, yeah, yeah, no This book is extremely well illustrated. I love I just going to show my listeners, they're definitely if you've got knee pain, go out and get this knee pain book because he gives you that. Plus, like you said there are, is there a QR code in here? There's a QR code at the back. So people can see that there's a QR code in the lower left. And you say that that will take them to places you've got that for each of the books, or each one of them. Correct.
Dr. Jonathan Su
And there's QR codes that gives access to videos have all the exercises also,
Greg Voisen
right? There's one here called has this guide helped you. So you have people to leave feedback. But you've got QR codes in here. Plus, you've got exercise, video planners, and more. And I'm going to show this because when we were originally going to do this podcast, we're only going to do this book. So the the scan me, so just scan it with your phone. And then he's got these six minute knee pain, cure exercise planner, okay? And are these downloadable at the same website as well, people like those, I guess they come with book, additional resources. So seriously, folks, if you've got knee pain, go get the six minute knee pain thing. So tell us a couple of them and then tell our listeners how your approach differs from other knee pain treatments, or even preventative treatments? And what kind of results do the list could the listeners expect?
Dr. Jonathan Su
Yeah, sure. So. So what makes this book different is that I suffered knee pain for decades, and I needed to figure out how to solve my own problem. And so that's actually why I became a physical therapist, because everyone else was telling me, hey, there's nothing you can do for your knee, you're gonna have a knee replacement in your 30s. And I was like, No way, I do not want that. And so I essentially spent, you know, the last 20 or so years of my life, trying to figure out knee pain. And, you know, I could say now that in my mid mid 40s, with almost a 30 year injury, that I've successfully resolved my knee pain. And so for most people, what I expect is that if they follow the program, they should notice, honestly, an immediate temporary improvement. That's how I know when we have the right physical therapy exercises for a person, it shouldn't be something that takes weeks to notice a difference. Like we can pinpoint what works, because what works is going to provide an immediate temporary improvement. And over time, as you keep doing the exercises that work, the improvement should be lasts longer and should should be a greater amount of improvement.
Greg Voisen
Are you an advocate of any of these red light laser kind of treatments where the heat of it increases the mitochondria in the area to actually help heal not only the area, but the reduce the inflammation that may have occurred in the pain? Is that something you advocate or? No, I'm just asking off the wall question.
Dr. Jonathan Su
Yeah, I think it can be very helpful. In fact, I've looked into that in the past, and there is some research showing that there are positive, you know, there's benefits of that. What I'm an advocate of is combining those types of treatments with physical therapy, because the body once your body starts to heal, it needs that input to know how to heal. It's kind of like, you know, what happens is if after, you know, you have an injury and you're rehabbing, the reason why we have is so important is because the body doesn't know how to lay down tissues and how much tissue to lay down, unless you have the type of forces that gives that body the input. So I think you need both.
Greg Voisen
So look, there's a lot of orthopedic surgeons that would go in and do orthoscopic surgery, like they're not going to go in and do super invasive, where they're going to replace the knee or, or scrape the knee or whatever. What are you what are your obviously you play a role because you work with patients who've probably coming out after surgery, knee surgery, or a hip surgery. They've had a hip replaced or whatever. And I had Dr. Hanscom from Oakland on here. Really, really fascinating neurosurgeon that did this work for years and years. And, you know, he's a complete turnaround from somebody who was doing back surgeries to advocating zero back surgery and non invasive procedures to do this. I would assume you stand in the same field with Dr. David Hanscom. You might even know him. If you don't know him. I'll be happy to introduce you You to him, but I was fascinated with his whole app and his approach to this. Yeah, yeah,
Dr. Jonathan Su
you're absolutely and you know, because I think it's just in the past, we just didn't have that much research about the body's ability to heal. And now, they're showing that even severely herniated discs, the body can actually heal that this is a process called resorption. And so, you know, sometimes the surgery, you know, does more harm than good, and especially with something like arthroscopic surgery, which is such a simple, you know, surgery. But the challenge is that now you have two traumas to your body, the first trauma from the injury now the second trauma from the surgery, right? And scar tissue and scar tissue. Yes, and yeah, all that adds up over time. Yeah,
Greg Voisen
yeah, no, you're absolutely right. And, you know, I think where you stand is in this field in the middle, obviously, where you understand you, you are treating patients who doctors, orthopedic surgeons have done invasive surgery, or minimally invasive surgery on, because that's your role, that's your job is to help them. And your job is to get them back fully functioning, or as close to fully functioning as possible. And so in kind of wrapping this up between the core strength, and the fitness and the knee fitness, what would you kind of tell our listeners overall, who are 60 Plus, who might be listening to the show, or those who aren't 60 Plus, right? So let's talk about both audiences here that are listening, who are saying, Hey, I would like to do stretches exercises, and be active into my 90s? What kind of things? Would you recommend? You know, like you were mentioning, do some squats behind the chair? You know, some of these things? What would be just some of the basic ones that you would that Jonathan would say, Hey, do these every day or whatever? Or go watch my videos? And you'll see.
Dr. Jonathan Su
Yeah, that's a that's a good question. It's it's difficult to summarize it all, because there's a lot of moving parts, right. But I would say two things. Number one, you got to build muscle strength. That if you're 60 Plus, that's the most important thing. And you could build it, even if you're 90 100 years old, one of my oldest patients is 104 walks without a cane can do push ups can do swell and issues. Yes, anyone can do that. Honestly, anyone can do that, if they work at it. And then the second thing is, then you also have to have in addition to a fitness program, to build strength, a maintenance program. So these are the things that keeps your body aligned, keeps your body in tune. And these are basically muscles that you don't typically think about working like the side of hip muscles. Right.
Greg Voisen
So, so that was a, I'd say, an excellent synopsis. But, and I know that you've got these three books. So for my listeners, you can go get all three and go to his website, you can get one of them at a time, whatever you want to do. But the reality is, in the book are the QR codes opportunity to actually see a video, which I think is extremely important, in this case, also specific instructions in each of these books, like I showed a minute ago as to what to do. And I think that you did an excellent job of summing up all a lot of material in a very short period of time. And I want to thank you, I want to thank you for being on inside personal growth, and taking the time to talk about ni P pain, core strength and fitness after 60. And before 60 Any last parting words you'd like to leave to the listeners?
Dr. Jonathan Su
Thanks for having me, Greg. And what I hope your listeners can walk away with is just a better understanding that physical decline as we age is not something that's inevitable.
Greg Voisen
I love that. Thank you. Thanks so much for being on inside personal growth, and speaking with our listeners, about how not only to prevent these pains, but then once you get them how to actually self treat them through your books. This one is the knee pain book. We'll put them all up on the website. Thanks, Jonathan.
Dr. Jonathan Su
Thanks, Greg.
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Inside Personal Growth with Greg Voisen · Podcast 1134: Fire Up Innovation with Helene CahenFor today’s episode, we are joined by Helene Cahen, a renowned innovator, consultant, and author of Fire Up Innovation: Sparking and Sustaining Innovation Teams. Helene, with over 20 years of experience in helping companies navigate innovation challenges, shared her journey and insights into fostering a culture of innovation within organizations.
A Practitioner’s Perspective
Helene’s approach to innovation is deeply practical. As a practitioner, she emphasizes the importance of not just reading about innovation but actively practicing it. Her book is designed to be interactive, encouraging readers to engage with exercises and tools that can be applied directly to their work environments. This hands-on approach ensures that innovation is not just a theoretical concept but a practical, actionable process.
Innovation Through a New Lens
Helene’s book stands out by focusing not only on the outcomes of innovation but also on the process and thinking necessary to achieve it. She highlights the importance of understanding the problem at hand before jumping to solutions. By deeply understanding the challenge, teams can come up with more relevant and effective solutions. This involves a structured process of diverging to explore multiple ideas and then converging to select the most promising ones.
The Importance of Team Dynamics
Innovation is often a team effort, requiring collaboration across different functions and perspectives. Helene underscores the importance of having a common process, tools, and language to facilitate better teamwork. Understanding individual problem-solving styles and how they contribute to team dynamics is crucial. She introduces tools like Foresight to map these styles and enhance team collaboration.
Sustaining Innovation
Maintaining an innovative environment requires a supportive culture from the top down. Helene advises leaders to appreciate and learn from failures rather than penalizing them. This approach encourages teams to take risks and innovate without fear. A culture that values learning from every project, successful or not, fosters sustained innovation.
Essential Tools for Innovation
Helene highlights practical tools like virtual whiteboards (e.g., Miro) for team collaboration. These tools allow for asynchronous work, where team members can contribute ideas at their convenience, and help in organizing and clustering ideas for better clarity and focus. Simple yet powerful tools like these can significantly enhance the innovation process.
Conclusion
Helene Cahen’s insights provide a valuable framework for companies looking to spark and sustain innovation. By focusing on the process, fostering collaboration, and maintaining a supportive culture, organizations can navigate the challenges of innovation and drive meaningful change. For more insights and practical tools, visit her website at fireupinnovation.com.
You may also refer to the transcripts below for the full transciption (not edited) of the interview.
Interview Transcipt -Not EditedEmailDownloadNew TabGreg Voisen
Well, welcome back to Inside Personal Growth. This is Greg Voisen, the host of Inside Personal Growth. And today joining us in, where are you in the Bay Area exactly. I mean...
Helene Cahen
I am in Berkeley, 10 minutes from campus.
Greg Voisen
Berkeley, okay. Is Helene Cahen, and she has a book out called Fire Up Innovation. I had to put that in front of the camera. And it's "Sparking and Sustaining Innovation Teams. And we know in this world that's fast paced today and corporations always wanting to get more out of their employees that innovation is a big is a big deal. And I'm going to tell them a little bit about you. She's an innovator, consultant, trainer, facilitator and over 20 years experience helping companies navigate innovation challenges. She's the author of Fire Up Innovation, and a TEDx speaker, you can go out and look for that. She is the founder and principal consultant at fire up innovation consulting, previously strategic insights, where she guides fortune 500 companies, small businesses and nonprofits to understand innovation, create innovation, new products, services, build effective teams, and support a user centered culture. She's also a lecturer, coach and facilitator at the University of California, Berkeley, Haas School of Business, and the Haas executive program, teaching innovation principles to those students and executive. She born and raised in Paris, graduated with a business degree with the elite science, po Paris trained in creative problem solving and design thinking. Lean Elaine is also received a master's of science and Creativity and Change Leadership from Buffalo State University of New York. And she is a certified foresight facilitator. You can learn more about her book or speaking engagements and her services by going to fireupinnovation.com. Well, it's a pleasure to have you on Inside Personal Growth, and finally get to do our interview together. And I'm excited for my listeners, because I think you've got some things to tell us not only about the book, but what's inside the book, the way the books laid out, I will tell my people, this is truly not just a book you put on the shelf, this is a book you can use. You can actually write in it you can do the exercises in it you can you really is something don't be afraid to pick this up and write it. I know so many people that they get a book and it's like, oh, I don't want to do it. And I think you did say to me that you do have some handouts people can get is that correct from your website, if they don't want to write in the book.
Helene Cahen
If you get in the book, there's a QR code. And you can get everything downloaded as a journal. So you can take as many notes as possible and scratch it and start again. So, it's definitely about to…
Greg Voisen
There you go. So that's one way. So, what inspired you to write fire up innovation? And how did your personal journey shaped the ideas kind of presented in this book? Because you really do talk about a lot? Yeah,
Helene Cahen
So, I'm defining myself as a practitioner. So I practice innovation. I train I coach, and I facilitated. And I wanted to share my knowledge of experience. And I wanted to do in a way that kind of were present. If you hire me, how do I get myself in a book? And so that was my personal challenge. And so that's why I didn't want it to be a book to read, because you can read innovation as much as possible, he won't change anything unless you do. So that book has a reading part because I wanted to anchored. I don't want to be a toolbar to book because that doesn't help either. I wanted to anchor in the theory and understanding of innovation and creativity. But I wanted to make it super practical so that each chapter has a practice. And there is some tools. So I would really recommend to use it, and by trying new things, and then observe, reflect, learn and keep going. Because that's really how you learn about innovation. So I wanted the book to reflect my philosophy, and the way I work with my clients as well. Well,
Greg Voisen
I think sparking and sustaining innovation teams is the key. And this is, you know, most people are working in teams when they're innovating. So can you elaborate on what you mean by innovation through a new lens, and how this perspective differs, like from traditional views on innovation, because, you know, there's so many books out there that people have written about innovation and creativity, using your intuition, all this kind of stuff to actually become more innovative. And I know that part of it is us reaching a point in our own physical being, you know, where we're having fun, we're at play. We're, we're getting endorphins released in our body, we're getting higher levels of oxytocin toxins in our body, because play is a big part of it. Can you speak about that?
Helene Cahen
Yeah, so play is part of creativity, and no brain works better if we have fun, and enjoy the experience. And the way that maybe my book is different than a lot of book is we talk a lot about the outcome. Of course, that's what we want. But we don't talk so much about the process and the thinking, necessary for innovation. And it is different than working by yourself, because you work by yourself, you have certain way you solve problem, and you can do it. Well, you put a team together. And usually the team is put together based on their background. So we need a finance person, and we need an r&d person, and we need a marketing person, which is great, but then you put them together and then might not have a clear process to use, they might not have a common language, they might not have tools. And they might not even know how they solve problems themselves. And so when you work in a team, and people saw problem differently, which we all do, but we don't know about it, it can create a lot of tensions and issues of miscommunication, which is not due by the fact that we not creative, it just a way that we creative in a different ways. And that's really what I wanted to suggest and emphasize. So whatever the outcome that you want to use this, this book can help, better collaboration more efficient, and then more fun in collaborating, because we can remove some of the friction and tension and Ondra the white together?
Greg Voisen
Well, you know, I think it's when people come up with new ideas, or they innovate, you know, a lot of times people will say, Well, you know, I know this might sound silly to you. But you know, I was in the shower, and I had this great idea, or I was out on a jog and I had a great idea. Or I was in the middle of a meditation, and all of a sudden I got this, wham, you know, like, there are people that look at it that way. It's I know, Roger, Van OSH is up in your area, and it's a whack inside of the head. He's going to be on the show here in the next couple of weeks. And you know, you know, it's that whack sometimes on the side of the head. But people don't usually think of innovation. It's almost like a conundrum is a process. So can you walk us through the core principles of innovation process that you discuss in the book, and how the teams can apply these principles effectively? Because I know one thing is sparking the idea. The next thing is then Well, after you spark the idea, we've got to go through and prove that fundamentally, we've got to walk through how are we going to make this thing come true? Right, how are we going to manifest this? So talk about that process? If you would,
Helene Cahen
I would and I just want to kind of do a general response to what you say is the idea I believe is the easiest thing I do is a very, very small new ideas is a very, very small part of an innovation process. And yet, that's the one that we talked about. So let me go through the steps. And I can tell you how much ice officers that were put on the idea. So the first thing is you have to really understand the problem you're trying to solve and what is the challenge at hand. And often we make assumptions that this is what we want to do. And if we take time to talk to users, observe what's happening, understanding different level of pains and need gap, then you can realize that the problem is now We have a problem. And it's there's a different one that is more important, or more relevant, or more unique, or we define girls. So the first thing is spend time on understanding the problem, then the second part is come up with ideas. And yes, it's important. And in the idea phase, like in every phase of an innovation process is two steps. There is the divert part when we look at a lot of options, and the Convert part when we select. So what we usually think about when storming ideas is only the diverge part of the ideation step, which is step number two. And that one, I would say, if I work with a team for three or four days, I probably spend no more than an hour on that part. So it's really a very small part, it's easy to come up with ideas, like what do we do next. And the next step in the ideation is actually how do we select those that we want to move forward. And then once you selected some ideas, and I would always want to keep more than one, because you don't know what's going to happen next. The next one is developing those ideas, make them into solution, prototype them, test them, get feedback, see, because ideas are often a bunch of words, but what's happening the reality. And that's where that development phase is really critical. And then once you narrow them down, get some feedback, think there is a way to to make it happen, then the last phase, phase four is actually implementing it. and implementing has also a lot of activities, because you have to think about all the ways that you may be part, make it possible, and then decide all of the details, whether it's a product, you want to manufacture it, you want to sell it, you want to get the financial, you want all the elements of the business model to be there. So this is a so as back to your question, this is a whole process. And it's much more than ideas.
Greg Voisen
Yeah, and it is all outlined in the book very specifically. And I want my listeners to know that. And you know, when you work in teams, and to get teams kind of working together, right to solve this problem. It you like you said, you're bringing people in from different departments might be marketing might be sales might be engineering might be all these different people with different ideas that they're sharing around the problem they're trying to solve. We've all identified this, we agree it's the right one. In your experience, what are some of the common challenges that innovation teams face? And how can they overcome these challenges to work more collaboratively? That's the key word here. And effectively, because sometimes those teams don't see eye to eye, but they need to.
Helene Cahen
Yes, so to your point on coming from different functional role, and also experience, previous experience, level of experience, our personal life experience, we all kind of see things a certain way with our own assumptions. And so what's really important for the team is to kind of emerge those different perspective. And that's also the beauty of innovation team is those multiple perspective are important, because the problem solution that you're going to come with the solution coming with also has is multifaceted. So you need all those perspective, as the world is multi perspective. And the solution will have those are the challenges, how do you make them work together? And so that's why the having a common process and tools really helps. Because then instead of being stuck in what do we do next? Or how are we going to facilitate that meeting, or what tool can help, they can really focus on the content, which is really those ideas or steps or those things that really are important. And so the process, having a good process, a good tool, common language, common approach, whatever it is, makes the the outcome and the content much, you have much more time and energy for it, instead of fighting on how are we going to facilitate this meeting, or what needs to happen next, we all know and we all agree, an organization might have different ones. And it doesn't matter as much as having a clear process that everybody is trained is and is on board about that. And then the other part that I feel it's really important, and sometimes we don't talk so much is understanding how we naturally solve problems. And be aware that this is unique to us. And it's different with other people. And so that's why I use a tool. It's called foresight, and I can tell you more if we want later. But we really have smart mapping your own way of solving problem. And then you can map the team way of solving problem and you start emerging some of the team dynamics that can be potentially an issue, and then you can scaffold and teach those skills. So let's say if the team is now really strong in coming up with ideas that's not that strong part. You can be sure you have some tools that are going to force them to not rush after the first 10 ideas but go to 400 not 200 or 500, or whatever it is. So the tool can help facilitate where naturally we might cut corners or not go in that direction.
Greg Voisen
Well, if people want to learn more about foresight, that particular tool, then go to your website. And they obviously, as I'm going to hold up here, again, they can get the book, that's what they want you to do is get a copy of the book, and all the resources are there at the website. And I, from what you said, I understand, you've got different personality, different types of people together, I can imagine that finding what your style is like, and then finding what others and then coming together with some kind of map makes it much easier for us to get to where we need to go. It's almost like going in a car and somebody saying, No, we're going here, we're going there, we're going here. No, we're all going over here. And here's that what we've all decided and how we're going to get there. And that brings me to this. One of the chapters is about sustaining creativity and innovation in a company. And I do get that, hey, once you innovate, or you create something, and you put it to market, and you start to create, generate sales, or whatever it might be, or it solves some problem. You know, sometimes things tail off, people aren't working at it. But the reality is, is companies today, with the speed at which technology is taking us have to stay at the forefront of innovation. This is a critical part. And what are some of the key strategies for maintaining an innovative environment over a long term period of time? What would you tell a CEO who's listening to this, or a top manager who's like, hey, well, we have the budget, but we just haven't implemented it. Because we're too busy doing what we normally do, which is selling what we sell up
Helene Cahen
to this couple of things. The first one is, I think, in this environment, particularly, if we don't innovate, the business is not going to grow or business might go down. And we talk a lot about the risk of innovating. And that's why some companies don't do it or don't take much risk. But we don't talk as much of the risk of not innovating. Like if you're not innovating in a market that is changing and things are changing around you, then you're not going to maintain your market share, you're likely to go down. So innovating innovation is critical. And to your point, it comes from the higher level, you have to have a culture that support innovation, you have to have investment that support innovation, with clear criteria. And I'm not saying you just throw money at it, but you clear about what you want to accomplish. But you want to do it over time, because innovation also tech sometimes. And then the biggest thing is I think is how is the company treating what they consider failure. And if a team is working on a project, and at some point, the project is not going to work because it doesn't meet the criteria, because it's whatever too expensive, take more time, you don't have the technology, what happens. And if the company appreciate that, and learn some lessons and kind of use that to get to the next innovation, that's going to sustain innovation. On the other hand, if there is a judgment, if the team has some potentially bad or negative consequences about this, if we just put the project under the rug, and don't even talk about what we learn, then it's not going to be a cure to that sustained innovation, because the next team is going to say, Well, what happened on Project X, we want to be really careful. So maybe we don't push the idea so much. Maybe we don't talk about this. And then it's kind of a while
Greg Voisen
you're kind of building a culture of fear. And you can't have fear. If you're going to innovate, you have to be bold, you have to be willing to step out. And I get that if management thinks Hey, the the last project didn't go well. And we invested in it. No innovation is what it is. It's in a sense, it's your r&d department. We could talk about that. But it's really your research and development department that's that's working on this and you have to be there. Now one of the things that you cover in this book is you call it the basic toolbox for sustaining innovation. And I think this is kind of the meat and potatoes of the book is the toolbox. Can you highlight a few of the essential tools from the toolbox and explain how they could be used in like real world situations. Okay,
Helene Cahen
and I'll start with a small level because there's a lot of toolbox and they show you 100 book tools, but a tool is only as good as you understand how to build your house, basically the foundation. So I'll start with a simple thing. And I really believe that whiteboards and post it note you know, virtual notes on a whiteboard is a great tool because you can work together. You can work a synchronously it's the new wall worm, you know, you used to have that big wound on big projects that we keep everything. This is where we can do Keep everything What
Greg Voisen
about what? Excuse me, but what about something like Miro? Yeah, exactly where teams can get together and put post it notes and sticky notes and do I saw at your website, all the things you do physically, and I think that's great, but we live in a world where everybody's all over the place now, working from Paris, working from Germany, working from wherever. So miracle is a good place to do that. Okay, virtual
Helene Cahen
whiteboard the best, because they allow you to work a synchronously you have, the team in Germany has an idea at two o'clock in the morning, they can put it there, and it's there for the team the next day. And it keeps everything in one place. And the other thing that is nice with that is the ability to move things. So let's say you come up and you ask the team to come up with ideas, and you give them a couple of days. So you have a bunch of ideas. Now we can say what do we saw as a diverging part of the ideation. Now how are we going to get them together. And that's a tool is clustering. So we would group those notes together and find some themes about it that are bigger than each idea. But now we have some theme, so we can move them. And then we can put a title and then we can rank them and we can vote on it. And all those. So I think having notes, the other thing was notes, which is nice is everybody can work at the same time. It works for introvert and extrovert, because it gives because of the whiteboard can get synchronous, give people time to think about it. So you don't always have to work together. And so I really think that that's a really basic tool, but I think they're underused. And I would say you know, just try it, play with it, me all they have free tests, I would definitely encourage this as a really, really basic tool. But just that can really make a difference.
Greg Voisen
There's also another one that I could encourage people because I've used many of these, it's called explain everything. And it is recently been bought out, I think by paradox or something. But the point is, is that, you know, you're trying to find a tool that you can work across time zones and areas with people to collaborate and innovate together. And there's some really interesting tools out there that have evolved as a result of I mean, pre pandemic, many of these didn't exist post pandemic, you know, if you want to talk what's good, we've really had a change in technology with relation to post pandemic tools that people use for innovation, and communicate, right?
Helene Cahen
Yes, there's a lot and I think they can be used to they can be used more, if you if the other
Greg Voisen
thing is, what does Elene use? What do you use with your clients.
Helene Cahen
So I use whiteboard, I use POST, its, that's a basic, if I if I look at each of the four phases, I mean, give you one key tool for each, in the Oh, and one thing that's also really important, and sometimes we don't talk about it so much, is having clear criteria for decisions upfront in a project. Because otherwise, we get some problem, we get ideas, and then everybody kind of vote on a very subjective way. And you actually miss the point. So that's really simple. But it's really critical.
Greg Voisen
I know that people are not going to believe this, but I keep these around and I buy them see how big these post it notes are. And I have a whole closet full of these because I use these all the time. Now these post it notes are available. I don't think there's a lot of people out there probably know, they make them this size. I don't even know what this is. This is a lemon by 11. So they're great. They're awesome. You know, when you gotta get your point across, so post it notes. Definitely. So look, five week Innovation Challenge. The book includes this five week Innovation Challenge. What is the purpose of this challenge, in your estimation? And how can individuals and teams benefit from undertaking the challenge? I love the fact that you put a challenge in because it's like, okay, if you guys haven't been as innovated, here's a challenge that I've got for you. Tell us about it,
Helene Cahen
thought the ideas is ascending, it's you have to learn by doing it. And by doing it over time, I think they say it takes four weeks to kick some new habits. So I wanted to and what it forces you so is this five part, the first part is just you. So I suggest you do new activities, new things, change your habits, and then reflect, observe what happens and then reflect. And then the second week is you and somebody else. So when you start creating new things with somebody else what happened in the challenge, and I have that same a discussion with a partner. It could be a work partner, it can be a personal partner with me in community. And then the third week is about doing this within a kind of water elements. So the team, if you have a team can be a work team or some other team and same thing, make some change and then discuss what happened and not learn from it. And then the fourth week is maybe doing it in a broader level, whatever you bought a level going to a community, when you think about a project that will impact the world or you know the world around you, and Sally the whole world. And then the fifth week is actually less polluted together, let's take a challenge from this is, I think, my challenge, and move through the four steps to do using the tools and see what happened and see that what I'm hoping to get from this is actually sometimes we say we don't have time for a process, we don't have time to go through the steps and show you that it doesn't take that long. You can do this in an hour or two. But you can actually by having a process that is systematic and clear, it can really help move things along actually much faster than you think.
Greg Voisen
Well, you know, one of the things that speeding things up in our world, which last year, if we'd done this interview wouldn't have been available, which is AI. And I don't think people get tired of talking about it. What they do is they're like, I'm just exploring how good this can be by going to jet GBT and putting in really good primes. With the rise of AI. How do you see its role in kind of evolving the context of innovation and creativity? And what are the potential benefits? One is I think, speed. But the other one is, what are some of the challenges. And obviously, it's going to be an aid for all of us, it's here to stay and isn't going anywhere. And I think from an innovation standpoint, with a team, it can be just so mind boggling, good.
Helene Cahen
It's, I mean, for now, I still think it's a tool. It's changing. So I don't quote me in two years, because I have no idea what's happening with AGI and all of that. But I think it's great for coming up with more options, whether it's different, trying to understand your problem going different angles at the problem getting even some research for you getting some portfolio on it, getting more ideas, because he can generate 100 ideas in a second. So I think to generate options in Oh, quit, even quit prototype, quit visuals for you quit slogan, create something and look at different ways to you know, implement what you have, where I'm still, suspending judgment for this is really the decision making, I think decision making is still for the conversion part. And when you kind of have a bunch of problems, a bunch of idea which one do you pick, I think at this stage, the last decision making should be human. And, and that might change at some point. But for now, I think we know more is with all our experience and wisdom that can be on an LLM that's been using the internet for so long as a nourishments. But it will change us company I've also the own program where they start feeding their own knowledge. So that will get them more refined into those. So that is going to evolve. So I think it's a next I have a friend and colleague who talks about the concept of sandwich studies human having AI in the middle and then end with the human. And I really like that concept. I think that's still the concept for now. As I say things are changing so fast. Well
Greg Voisen
look, there has to be submitted right the prompt, and then the computer has to give you the ideas back. And then the humans have to process what the computer gave back. So the sandwich is really a really wonderful way to look at it. And I would say that it's true, what it's doing is it's taking some of the mind boggling crazy stuff. And it's allowing us to get to a much more vast place than we could in our own human brains to come up with ideas from around the let's just say universe. And that's the good part is we are getting fed ideas and concepts from places we in our universe verse might be smaller, let's put it that way. We have a pretty small universe. But the universe of the AI is vast. It's large. And and we can draw from that to see if there's something we could use. Now, in measuring the success of an innovation project, we talked about if it was a failure, how the culture treats it and how the organization works with people. But how should organizations measure success for innovation efforts? And are there specific metrics or indicators that you would recommend? Because, look, if you go out on a project, and it didn't work, and the company spent three $400,000 on it, and it was like, Whoa, I don't want to look at that as Oh, we failed. I want to look at that as we found one more way not to do something. Right. And I think that's and I think people that have been successes in business. the Steve Jobs of the world to Bill Gates are the World, they've always had failures, but learn from the failures and turn it into success. So the question is, is how would you want to measure that and talk with our audience about that. Um,
Helene Cahen
so I think there's a couple of things. That's why we really believe in that prototyping and early prototyping, which is really good prototyping, prototyping, and get get it to learn as a learning experience now, then evaluation experience, necessarily. And the more you do it upfront, when it doesn't cost you so much time and money are, the better you might be later. And so it's an early investment in, I don't, I wouldn't call it failing. It's just it's an opportunity to learn. I think what's important is for a company, and each organization is different have very clear criteria on when they want, what success is going to look like for them, and be clear up front. So there is not like the team's on a certain path. And then a year later, the management say, Well, you didn't reach that goal. But we didn't know that was a goal for the project. I think, what's, what's important is, I'm lost my train of thoughts. So and talking
Greg Voisen
about what metrics you would you would want to measure for,
Helene Cahen
so some of it is is time, you know, what can we do feasibility, and return on investment? So what are we expecting? When like, we want a project? That's going to be why are we looking for a million dollar project, I will looking for a $10 million project, I looking for something that we can do in six months, or something we can do in three years, are we looking at different level of feasibility, like we want to do projects that within the way that we do business, or we're willing to do business differently, or work with other organizations that can help because this is not how we this is not our core business. So I think those are really important to be clear and define, because they will help us also make the decision. So if we're looking at a $10 million success, for certain company, that means certain level of risk. And if it's 100 million products, it might be a different level of risk. But you might risk more, but you get a bigger return on investment. Or if we need something in six months, probably is not going to be that innovative, because in six months, we can only do so much. But we want something new there because we need the next generation of whatever we're doing, or the markets moving in. Unless we have a new product in six months we'll be left behind. So being clear on what it is for your organization, and define what you success is. And that also will help you make decisions along the line when you like, well, we have those two ideas, which one do we pick? Well, let's go back to what we were looking for this product.
Greg Voisen
Yeah, and I would concur with you that it is kind of an iterative process, right, I would think a company, and I'm not inside the inside of Apple. But if you look at every time they iterate a new iPhone, or a new iPad, or a new computer or a new device with the new chip, you know, this has been probably going on prior to the launch of the product. Who knows, it could be years, it could be a year, it could be a year and a half, it can be two years. But I don't have a privy as to how long it takes them to innovate. But they're always iterating. Because they're always coming up with something newer, faster, sleeker, better, propose better. And that is the world that we live in. And that's what sustains their current stakeholders value. Right? As unfortunate or as fortunate as it is, it is kind of the world that we live in, you know, replace something old and get something new, right? So anything that you would say about, you know, just the length of time people have to innovate something, what
Helene Cahen
it really depends on your business model, and there's different level of innovation to a phone, you know, there is a founder of just one generation up and you don't see the big difference. And then there is suddenly a whole different in step change that might happen. You know, when they start integrating AI that they're only going to do in the new model. That's probably a step change, versus other 12 versus 13 versus the 14. So it is all that or when they come up with actually not only was successful, but you know, those new goggles, anything like that? Yeah,
Greg Voisen
that one was a big that was a big step change, you say? Yeah, so they same thing with the new iPad, even though it was a it is what we're speaking about Apple folks, but the reality is this would be any company that's evolving or coming up with a product, even service based cloud based companies where they change their software go through a long period of time before that launches, or that they launched that. Now you know looking ahead into the future of innovation Sharon, what do you see is the future trends and innovation? And how can organizations kind of prepare to stay ahead in this ever changing landscape because the landscape of not just innovation, but the landscape of business, in general, continues to move very fast. You know, and I think it's something that's worth you addressing. From your perspective,
Helene Cahen
I think, you know, the best is to be open and flexible. Um, because change is happening so fast. So we used to do like the five year plan and the 10 year plan, and there might be great, it's good to have, but we just have to know that the five year plan is going to change the six months because everything is changing. So being flexible, being willing to change with some organization is harder than others, have teams that are willing to, you know, understand that in the world by changing all the time, they need to also be able to do that. And that means more failure, that might mean more new projects. I think having a portfolio of innovation on concept is also important. So we have the small innovation that we need. And then we have the bigger one that we also need to have in the pipeline. And then obviously, see what's happening with AI, because it's going to be keep changing the way we do business, whether you have a product that has AI in it enough for the end users or just build a new system. And so this is going to be and I think a lot of companies are starting to really know that they need to to keep up and try to see what happening but it also sometimes you don't want to over invest a single changing so fast. So it's definitely for everybody is flexibility, curiosity, asking question, be willing to change plan as as things change so fast.
Greg Voisen
Well, your book buyer up and I want to say to my listening audience, Fire Up Innovation: Sparking and Sustaining Innovation Teams is a great place for people to go and a great resource. And as she said, if you go to fireupinnovations, you can download these pages and work with them and scribble on them and do whatever, if you don't want to scribble up into the book itself, I'd encourage you all to go to fire up innovation.com to reach out to Eileen and Kane, and actually speak with her lever note. She has speaking engagements you can do with a talk with her about that as well.
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Inside Personal Growth with Greg Voisen · Podcast 1133: Living a Conscious Life with Donald JohnsonJoining us this episode is Donald Johnson, author of Living a Conscious Life: How to Find Peace, Wholeness, and Freedom in a Chaotic World. He shares his journey from a successful business and sales leader to a transformational coach and leadership consultant. Don’s book, available on Amazon, offers valuable insights into living a life of inner peace and consciousness amidst chaos.
Johnson’s path to self-discovery began with a simple yet profound inscription at his alma mater, Ohio Wesleyan University: “Know the truth, and the truth will set you free.” This quest led him to embrace meditation and inner exploration under the guidance of a young Indian guru. From ages 23 to 33, Johnson lived as a monk, practicing celibacy and obedience, which laid the foundation for his lifelong passion for meditation and inner peace.
A pivotal moment in Johnson’s life was healing his strained relationship with his father. By intentionally addressing and reconciling past conflicts, Johnson found peace and became a better father. He emphasizes the importance of intentional living, self-care, and kindness towards oneself as keys to fostering healthier relationships and personal growth.
Johnson’s experiences underline the significance of inner work. Whether through meditation, journaling, or simply being in nature, he advocates for consistent practices that nurture the inner self. By letting go of limiting beliefs and embracing compassion, individuals can open up to the abundant opportunities life offers and cultivate meaningful connections with others.
For those seeking to transform their lives, Living a Conscious Life provides a roadmap to inner peace and wholeness. Visit bemoreconscious.com to learn more about Don Johnson and his transformative work.
You may also refer to the transcripts below for the full transciption (not edited) of the interview.
Interview Transcipt -Not EditedEmailDownloadNew TabGreg Voisen
Well, welcome back to Inside Personal Growth. This is Greg Voisen, host of Inside Personal Growth. And joining me from Tayport, Scotland is Don Johnson, the author of a new book, can you hold that one up on your phone I thought that was just clever is can be a conscious life. Believe it or not, folks, he found a company that actually put his book on there. Now, the book is also at Amazon. And it's Living a Conscious Life: How to Find Peace, Wholeness, and Freedom in a Chaotic World, just came out June 4. For all the listeners, no matter when, wherever you're getting this. There's a little video there as well. And if you want to learn more about Don, go to bemoreconscious.com. Well, Don, I'm going to let the listeners do you have a copy of the book there or just on your phone?
Donald Johnson
Well, Greg, there was a little problem with the Amazon chain, so Okay, all right. Yeah, let's leave it at that.
Greg Voisen
Okay, we'll just say, look, he's got the copy of the book up on his phone. That is clever enough as it is. So I'm just gonna say go to Amazon. You can order it now. And you can get your copies through Amazon now. So, Don is a former business and sales leader turn it turned writer, transformational coach, and leadership consultant, but that's not the most interesting part of this gentleman. He is a top writer for medium.com, telling life stories and lessons learned on his journey in and out of chaos. He's also the founder of Integra group, a boutique consulting firm offering transformative coaching, conscious leadership and team building solutions. He started his career helping to open the first generation natural food store in the United States.
Donald Johnson
Bitcoin was that, was called Rainbow Grocery up in Boston, Massachusetts.
Greg Voisen
Rainbow Grocery, okay, Whole Foods was the successor.
Donald Johnson
In my dreams, yes.
Greg Voisen
So this was part of his 10 year career with Elon vital and organization that sponsored the teachings of pre bream, Red Rock, our AWS Prem Prem rahua Prem Wow, an Indian guru. Were teaching ancient meditation techniques at elan vital Dawn held positions as community director, meditation instructor and president and a then joined Zinger Miller achievement global, which is an international leadership development organization, which many of you know and was vice president of this $20 million business unit. He's got a very interesting background go look him up on his website. He's got a BA in English literature from Ohio Wesleyan University. I lives in this beautiful spot in Scotland with his wife, and is a competitive tennis player, a songwriter you can see by the guitar in the back of the screen there, releasing three albums in his spare time, you may find him painting, hiking, golfing, and learning to play boogie woogie on the piano. Well, eight, you definitely got it all going on over there. And Scotland's a great place to have it going on. And this book is your first book, is that correct? That is correct. So congratulations to you. And thanks for being on inside personal growth. And he was referred to me by Cathy Sparrow who was my partner and we wrote a book called in combination with Beau Parfit, the precipice of life, the leadership lessons that you learn from mountain climbing. So, in this living a conscious life, you emphasize the quest for inner knowledge. Can you share a pivotal moment in your life that led you to prioritize inner exploration and consciousness versus the focus on doing doing doing versus Bing Bing Bing?
Donald Johnson
Yeah, a couple of things that tie together. One when I was at college at Ohio Wesleyan University, there was a main campus building that I walked past for four years. And then on that cornerstone in that on that building, there was a little inscription called know the truth and the truth will set you free from the Bible. I believe it was a Methodist oriented school. That struck me probably about two years in and I thought what the heck is that? If there's some kind of truth that can help me under know myself? I want to know that. I didn't know how to go about doing that Greg. But one day, one evening I was sitting talking to a fraternity Brother in his room, and we were talking about God and theology and various things and and we said, we're talking about God. And he said, I don't believe in God. He said, But I believe in a life force. And when he said those words life force, something stuck. And I said, I want to know that I want to I want to know that lifeforce. That would be interesting to me. And I'm curious about that. A few months later, I met someone who introduced me to this young Indian guru at the time. And they, they they explained to me that there are some simple techniques that can take one inside, where one can know the life force, know the inner truth. And, and that was my, that was my awakening, if you will. And a few months later, I learned how to meditate go within. And that became a lifelong passion, and 11 years,
Greg Voisen
then how many years down? Did you spend in ashrams and meditating? And not that you still don't? But my point is, we're really immersed deeply. Yeah, when
Donald Johnson
I was immersed from 30, from 23 until 33. And that was, you know, a couple hours a day. And that became a big foundation for my life. And I still practice, not today, today, 50 years later,
Greg Voisen
of course you do, because it gives you the salience you need and the peace in your life. And I think it's really important. So for my listeners, whether you meditate or you do somatic breathing, or if you do yoga, or whatever it is that you do all those practices lead to open up this expansiveness to a resource that's available to everyone, which I think frequently gets shut down. And your book discusses the Power of Healing Broken Relationships. How has your personal experience with reconciliation influenced your approach to living a conscious life? Yeah,
Donald Johnson
I would actually flip the question. I would say it starts with having being intentional, which is one way to describe being conscious, which means being awake, but being intentional. So when I was about 40, I began to be I was interested in healing the relationship with my father, because I had just, I had my son was just conceived. And I said, you know, I want to, I want to make sure that I break some of the generational. More parenting, I guess you could say, that I received as a as a son from my father. And so I became very intentional about, I want to heal the relationship with my father, before he before he goes. And that set me on a path of several things that I did, that enabled my father and I to eventually after exchanging some letters, because we were estranged for about 10 years, or 15 years. And when we eventually we came together and had a very profound conversation about the past and about our contribution to the breakdown in our relationship. So the healing of that relationship, for me, was a huge step in reconciling not just the past, but also helping me learn what I could do to be a better father to my son.
Greg Voisen
You know, in many of Eastern practices, which you were in, and is taught by Buddha, as well, there's pain and suffering, then there's the end of pain and suffering. Well, the pain and suffering as that Buddha's precept talks about is our own doing. It's what we created until we can wake up to a conscious life, we won't remove the pain and suffering, whatever it might be, because there's many ways that we can bring that into our life and then make it part of a belief system and then start to think that that's the way we should be. And I think to come from a point of compassion. You mentioned this concept of Living from the heart. Dalai Lama talks about this as well. He says, This is the only thing that's going to heal this world. And we're not just talking about compassion for others, we're talking about compassion for ourselves. Yeah. Quit beating up on yourself. when is enough enough? That kind of thing? What practical steps can individuals take to align their daily actions with their hearts intentions? Because I think it's one thing to have these intention. It's another thing to get distracted by all of the doing, versus the being. And we have to be both in this world. I get that you can't just you didn't do your consulting practice by just being you had to do a lot of things in that consulting practice. And you of course, you drive and you drove hard. But you learned from driving hard, how you could flip to being the person you are today. And loving yourself more. Yeah. Yeah,
Donald Johnson
yeah, absolutely. No, you're, you're on it. No, I mean, you know, to answer your question. You know, I don't I never in the book, I don't tell people what to do, I simply share, here's what I've learned over the course of my life. And in terms of, you know, Living from the heart or connecting intention with actual practice. I mean, the things that have meant a lot to me, are simple things that, you know, you're familiar with, and I think people in general are familiar with, but it starts, I think, it starts with being reminding oneself of the good things that are happening in one's life. I do that at the end of the day before I close my eyes at night, many times, I just reflect briefly, and I say, what happened today that I feel good about. And I embrace those things. And I say that's, that's great. And I realized that there's things that I could like I could release to things that didn't go so well. When I wake up in the morning, I try to connect with my breath. I try to just feel what's what's there. And I say, I'm looking forward to a great day. And I take and I've learned Greg the hard way over the course of my life with, as you say, with all the doing, doing and pushing, pushing, how hard that is how hard I was in myself, gradually, as I got older, and through midlife, probably not too close till I was 60, that I start to like, consciously embrace the idea of self care, being easier on myself being more forgiving, and practicing that on an everyday basis. And what I what I saw was that the more that I took care of myself, and the more Kinder I was to myself, the Kinder I was to those those around me. So
Greg Voisen
yeah, that's also what happens is there's this element of you being kind to yourself, which leads to a manifestation in so many areas of your life, the opportunities become abundant, I think you pass them up, when you're moving at lightning speed, and you don't see them because the signs and symbols that are being given to you every day, you're kind of ignoring, you know, you're just going so fast. Now you have all people. And I'm not saying that you shouldn't be the person, but you spent a significant period of your time as a monk. And and how did this time in the ashram which we just talked about? Shape your understanding of consciousness and personal growth? Because I think, look, I'm an SRF. DEVOTEE, I get it. I see the monks, I think, frequently, people put them on a pedestal. I think they do that because they're like, well, these people are more godly than I am, or they know more than I do. And I'm beginning to see it different. Right? I'm beginning to see them as a vessel as an expression of who we would like to become. Can you address that?
Donald Johnson
Yeah, I can say what? I'll say this. Yes. So from the time I was 23, to 33, I lived a I lived a celibate life of chastity and obedience. And that was not because I wanted to be a monk that was because at the time to do the work involving with Alon V tall, this organization that supported Prem robots activities, one had to be it was just it was set up as a 501 C three nonprofit. So I became a monk not because I wanted to become a monk, but I became a monk in service of a greater good, which was how can we take this message of these ancient techniques of meditation that I was experiencing are given me great peace? How can we take those to the world? So I became very focused on a couple of hours of meditation each day, nightly meetings, reinforcement, I mean, I lived a very spartan life, Greg, it was very smart. I learned to live with basically nothing, no possessions, nothing. And I was quite happy. I was quite happy. So that found that was my foundation. So when I came out of there, I kept the foundation I let him I let a lot of the other things go because they weren't necessary. There's I think there's a grand illusion of one needs to be austere in order to have an experience of inner peace. It's just not true. At all. I think it's the matter of being consistent in whatever practice one does. A lot of people don't like to meditate, but they do other things. They might do breathing, they might journal, they might be in nature, they might pray, they might do affirmations. But for me, the meditation was always a foundation because it gave me a real experience and that real experience I used today.
Greg Voisen
Well, that's very well put. And you obviously have had these great experiences and are well verse to be able to write a book Living a conscious life because of your own personal story and the other people that you've touched along the way as a result of this In this section on nurturing the inner world, you talk about facing limiting beliefs. Now, I, it's an interesting one, because as a monk, I don't really think of them having very many limiting beliefs, I think they're limited enough by the environment in which they live in, because they've been sequestered in an area where the world is outside of them, right? In other words, it's like, Hey, I live in this area where it's called an ashram. And inside that opera ashram, there's certain practices, which are clearly defined. I'm not exposed to everything on the outside world. So what strategies do you recommend for identifying and or overcoming the limiting beliefs that we impose on ourselves as a result of living in the outside world? Yeah, when I say outside it, just Yeah, I mean, is the world period, I think, I think it's a comment. Just to state this, the world you lived in inside of an ashram should be for a big part, the world in which all of us will have, although it just isn't the case.
Donald Johnson
The many people that I lived with in the ashram had outside jobs and just worked, I happened to work within the organization. But I worked, I worked hard, I worked long hours in that ashram, I wasn't just sitting around, like, you know, with a little halo over my head, just like with a sheet, you know, being quiet, though, it was very active. I mean, we were, so it was doing and being but there was an emphasis on the being part. And while I was in the ashram, I couldn't, I didn't care, one hoot about limiting beliefs or anything like that. I my focus was elsewhere. It was when I got into the real world, right, and I had a family to raise, I had a wife, I had work, that's when the shit hits the fan. And, and you real and you start wondering about these things. So for example, you know, I'll answer your question, which is, you know, strategies and techniques for uncovering limiting beliefs. But, you know, I tell the story in the book about how a transformative part of my life a big transformative part of my life was, when I realized that I had some limiting beliefs that were keeping me in a relationship that was not serving the very well. And what happened was, I started to resist having a conversation with my then second wife, and I bumped into someone literally a serendipitous meeting, a matter of seconds, where we passed each other in, in, in a doctor's office. And he overheard a conversation and that began a relationship that I had with him. And when I he said to me, he said, Why, why are you suffering here with your knee or whatever? And he connected mind body, he said, There's something about the knee, from a mind body perspective, is the inability to move forward, a knee injury. And I said, That's very interesting. He said, So what's keeping you from moving forward? I said, I'm afraid of having this conversation with my wife. Why? And as we pick that apart, I began to I wrote down, what was I afraid of? I'm not good enough. I'm afraid what might happen. I don't deserve everything. And that process. That process freed me, if you will. And I went, and I had that conversation. And he says, His last words, before we split, separate from that meeting, he said, Look, he said, You're going into that conversation, thinking all hell is gonna break loose, it's going to be the worst thing that ever happened to you. Correct? I said, right. He said, that's why you're not doing it. Because you're afraid of what might happen in the future, the unknown future, the worst, imagined future is what we always what we do. He said, think about it like this. He said, tell yourself, that conversation is going to be fun, and easy. And a little voice and freeing and a little voice in my said, that is the big crock of garbage, you know, and they said, say it again this time, say it from your belly and actually mean it. And I said it again, that I went, I went back home and eventually had that conversation now. Between you and me and the listeners, was it fun and easy. I wouldn't classify it as totally fun and easy. But I'll tell you this, it was not as not as nearly as hard as I imagined it to be. And it actually was to your last point, it was free. And that conversation then that was a conversation that transformed my life. And we so we went you know, it's it's, it's a match. It's we imagined stuff that isn't true. And here's the answer. So to your question practically is, for the listeners, if you want to discover your false beliefs, what I would say is pick something where there's friction, pick something that you're afraid of doing or hesitant to do. And ask yourself, why are you not doing those things? That's one way to uncover the limiting beliefs.
Greg Voisen
But well, so here's a section in here, you're talking about finding this importance of finding peace within before cultivating healthy relationship. So did you. So how do you suggest people balanced self care? Which is what you were doing when you had that conversation? With maintaining meaningful connections with others? Yeah,
Donald Johnson
right. You know, yeah, I don't believe that, it's necessary to have inner peace before you have a meaningful relationship. So let me let me just address that. You know, in that particular article, the what I was getting at was, we carry around our own baggage, and we bring it wherever we go. And many people, you know, find themselves in relationships, and we all learn, we're attracted to some something. And many times, there's a lesson in that relationship for us to learn. And until we learn it, it'll keep repeating itself. And we know, for those of us that have been in relationships, if we don't clean up our own mess, we just bring it from one relationship to the next to the next. And inevitably, we have to get to a point where we free ourselves from our own trauma, we free it, we free ourselves up from the baggage recurring. So whether it's meditation, or whatever you might do, you know, I advocate for, do the inner work, you know, whatever it is, even whether you're in a relationship or not. But clearly, a relationship can be a mirror. And I think a good relationship is a good mirror, and it will show us what we need to learn, we get triggered, and we start to explore our triggers. So let's triggers can be like buoys they can be signposts for us to grab onto and say, What do I need to learn here? What do I need to let go of? I think, you know, I think a lot of life is not adding stuff to our, to our whole basket that we have. It's about letting go. It's about releasing things. And finding that beautiful stone within that beautiful sculpture within that raw stone. It's chipping away at the stuff we don't need. That's the way we get free. That's the way we have healthy relationships. Agreed.
Greg Voisen
Agreed. You know, I remember a long time ago going to a workshop. For some reason, I'm not remembering the author's name, but the book was power versus force. And I think you probably remember it. And what as you were talking for some reason that popped into my mind, because it was around the levels of consciousness, you're talking about living a conscious life. And there was this rating scale that said, Well, who's all the way down here at the bottom? And if if you use the Dalai Lama as being vibrating at a level, and we're going to talk about this, because you then talk about this feminine energy and male dominated world, vibrating at even a higher level and a higher level and a higher level. All that is, is our willingness to be aware, the heightened level of awareness, because many of us walk around asleep. We are asleep. But I think in one sense, that that asleep, Enos is a protection, okay? It's the way for us to protect ourselves, it's our ego, potentially protecting ourselves. So if you would talk about this impact of this female energy in a male dominated world, because I've been told by so many people that I have, and I don't know if this is true, but they always say, Well, you have equal amounts of female and male energy and you because you're very good at reading people and understanding and feeling and empathy and, and all of that and I take it as a compliment. How can men and women cultivate and appreciate this energy in their personal and professional lives? Because my, my sense here, Don is is that when you do attempt to balance this, you are you better at understanding both sexes. Okay, you have a heightened awareness about what's going on any comment there for that question?
Donald Johnson
It's a big question. And an important one. I, I you know, I was drawn to to write about that. Because for a couple of reasons, one what I came when I left the ashram I found myself With a young and psychotherapist, and he was a character, he did a quick little assessment of me and he said, Look, he said, here's, here's my analysis of you, you've come out of this, this loving this loving environment, this Ashram, you've got a big lover inflation, you've got a magician leakage, which is your protection to keep you from keep you safe. And you've got a big warrior depletion, as well, a big a big, right? Because you're basically saying you're completely out of balance Don and your shadow, you're a, you're a mess. And, and he was right, you know, so at that time, I had, I was embodying a lot of feminine energy, you know, as a monk, you know, from just focusing on devotional love, such like, so I came out and he said, Look, we need to, to, we need to get you in balance. So we began a process and he had me, he said, Look, I want you to pick a sport, I don't care what the sport is karate, chess, tennis, whatever you want. I said, You know what, I'll pick tennis. And tennis became a metaphor for me of a battleground. And it was a way for me to exercise my male energy about winning, and about strategy and so on. So that was, that was the beginning of me working on how do I integrate and find ways to balance myself. So by the time I got around to writing this article, you know, I, I've done a lot more inner work. And, you know, I was a more I was more aware of the nature of male and female energies, and we're talking, we're not talking about sexual sex here or genetics, we're talking about energy. And you know, that, and, you know, the energy of doing and pushing is very masculine. The energy of listening and being is very feminine. We have all of those energies within us. It's just a matter of where do we put our attention? And, you know, my opinion is, in this male dominated world, we the mod, the role models that we see too often are to one extreme or the other. And it's what what advice I have for people is, find people that appear to you to be more imbalanced, spend time with them, understand what they're doing, how asked how do they find balance, and this is what I continue to work on today, I try to I try to find balance, the being for me is through meditation, or being in nature, or writing poetry or doing art, or using the right side of my brain, the creative side of my brain, it's very, it's more feminine oriented, you know, left side might be more masculine. So I balance that out with sports activities or competition. But I really, I try to keep a balance. And if I get out of balance, someone like my wife, who's very got a lot of female energy, and a lot of masculine energy, she can see it just like you're saying, she can see it. And sometimes she'll call me out and said, there's too much there's too much aggression here, like, chill out, you know, which is language for dial up some more feminine energy. And I do agree it is a compliment when somebody says that to you that they find a balance. So I don't know if that's really all
Greg Voisen
I know, it is. And I'll add to that the epiphany for me, as you were speaking with, you know, people in the workaday world, which is a lot of people that listen to the show, but are seeking answers outside of that are literally trying to manage energy, period, meaning, you know, you're given so much energy during a day, you can do certain things to elevate that energy and improve it. One is through meditation because it gives you more focus gives you more direction. You're you're more even keeled you say balanced? It certainly does. Yesterday, one of the authors that was on the show took me through an hour long somatic breathing exercise, right? And you know, it's interesting how he takes you in the world and out of the world to make that happen. And when I say that, I don't mean people ridiculously think about am I going out in the world? I'm saying, Am I having more of a spiritual experience may having an experience which is like working in a business, right? It at times, it is a spiritual experience, but for the most part, it's more of a doing experience. It's where you're there to get something done. Now. There's one thing that I always learned when I got my degree in spiritual psychology was around the significance of forgiveness, forgiveness of self and forgiveness of others for things We didn't do or things we should have done versus what the other people did to us that we hold some kind of grudge against or whatever was said. What, what would you say? And how can you? How can someone start the process of forgiveness when the hurt is really so fresh and painful? A look, you know, you, you've been through, is it two divorces? You're on? Yes, yes. Okay. So you can't tell me those didn't have some degree of pain. Because one person had to tell the other person. Guess what? It's time. Right? That. That's let's end this. So So what advice would you give for people that are either going through that or contemplating it? Or they're, they're challenged by it? They're upset by it, the prospects of it? Yeah.
Donald Johnson
Yeah. You know, we go through the stages of emotion of emotion, as you know, like of grief or suffering, you know, Lizabeth moss Cantor's work and others talk about the, you know, when you go through shock, anger or resentment, it's typical, I think that we go through these phases of grieving. And it's hard to rush through the phases of it, I found each there's, you know, as human beings, there is a time to, to grieve. And it's really hard in that grieving phase to see anything more than the grieving.
Greg Voisen
What would you tell people that are in denial? Because openness to grieving, I remember doing an interview on a podcast open is to grieving. Some people, you know, you ask them Hey, well, did you grieve your father's or mother's death? Did you grieve your brother? I didn't have time? Yeah, I want to be, right. Yeah, yeah. And there's a lot of emotional hang up, they get stuck in there when we don't, right.
Donald Johnson
I agree. I mean, all that stuff gets stuck in your body, you know, this, and, and, you know, it'll, I think the, the, you know, the journey, the journey of living a more conscious life, is to, for me, my experiences, we go through these events, these life experiences, and they, they have the potential to help us grow and make us stronger, if we're willing to face them. And that's a lot of the, you know, when you talk about denial. You know, look, I'm a big, I'm a big proponent of facing and accepting one's own darkness, and not burying it. Because when you know, when the more that we bury, it does not help, we're not going to find ourselves in a place where we're forgiving. Because we get caught up in the bitterness or the resentment. And anytime I see bitterness or resentment in anyone, what I see is somebody who hasn't taken responsibility to do the work to pull themselves out of that. And it's easy to get trapped. It really, really is. And I I'm a big proponent of prayer. And when I hit rock bottom, was probably the best thing that could have ever happened to me rock bottom, meaning I realized I needed help. I needed to stop being in denial, and and take and be courageous and step forward. Was it easy? No, it was really, really hard. But that is sometimes the path that we find ourselves on. We have to face our inner our inner demons. And when we do, what I my experiences, we can be forgiving. I mean, I'm dealing with something right now that I'm not super happy about. And if you have a minute, I'll tell you about it real fast. If not, we'll we can move on. You tell me Yeah, go ahead. Alright, so here's the deal. So I've spoken out, we've talked about, you know, I lived in this Ashram and, and we have this Indian guru. I spoke out about Prem Rawat, because a lot of his behavior is not what it should be. He's actually done a lot of things that are not not acceptable for a person with his stature. And a lot of his followers have gotten very angry at me for speaking out about the truth, and not keeping it quiet. Because there's a key he's got a carefully orchestrated public image, like many spiritual leaders do. So they've come after me. And they've trashed my book on Amazon, literally. I mean, like, given me fake fake reviews, and just rip me personal attacks on me, disguised as reviews, they've not read the book, they're not ordered the book. They're just attacking me. You'll see them on there. So I'm not happy about that. However, I'm also not angry about it either. I understand. I kicked the hornet's nest. I've got to deal with the with the with the blowback now. And so I understand it. I was also I was one of those people years ago, I would have done anything to protect my beloved teacher. But when I found out about his actual character, I said, I cannot stay quiet. I'm sorry, I'll take the heat, because it needs to be said. So I'm dealing with some of that right now I'm I am doing my best to be forgiving, and to rise above the fray. And all I'm saying it's not easy, but it can be done. Well,
Greg Voisen
I think it's good that you brought it out. And for all my listeners to know that, you know, the comments that might be there before they buy your book, are definitely a result of a retribution from somebody taking action against you for something that you know is true that you spoke up for. And I think the truth will set you free. And so the reality is, is that is it the big T or the little T, right? What is your truth? What is your knowing not? What is your belief, these weren't beliefs that you were acting on? These were like your knowings that you were acting on. And you had to stand up for it. And I remember here just recently, we had Guy Kawasaki on the phone. And he did a podcast with me called Think remarkable. That was his book. And he mentioned a incident, this is this will frame you pretty good. An incident with Steve Jobs in the boardroom, around the first campaign because he was the evangelist for Apple at that time. And there was the campaign that was coming out with with Albert Einstein and Amelia Earhart, you remember it, everybody was supposed to get a Macintosh and Microsoft was going to take over the world and blah, blah, blah. So they had this ad campaign. Right? Well, so he was kind of heading up the ad campaign, the ad guy was in there and said, I have two copies of this. At the time, VHS that was 1997. And I'm going to give one to Steve Steve sitting right there and and get one to you guy. And Steve stands up and this is a great story and says to guy to Guy Kawasaki. No, you're not gonna give one to guy. You're gonna get both to me. And then guy kind of sit there and he goes, Well, what's wrong, Steve? And he Steve says, I don't trust you. And then he thought for a second. And he says it's very pointedly in the interview for anyone's listening. He said, Well, that's okay, Steve. I don't trust you either. And so what ended up happening was, and he makes a joke about it. But he said, well, that little comment or outburst he said, it cost me 10s of millions of dollars. But but the reality was, it wasn't because he got fired. It was just about the way the treatment was. But he had to stand up and say something, you know what I mean. And we've all read books about Steve Jobs. And now he is such a tough guy and a tough leader. We all know that, right? And you're now telling this about your you're the head of your Ashram, and how this leader was a little bit misbehaving or whatever he did, but it again, it's in your truth. And I think that's the most important thing is that I was there I experienced it. I know who this person is. The fact that I'm saying something is important to me, may not be important to you. But it's important to me. Now, with that being said, everybody out there listening to this show, and in your conscious life book, they're exploring these ideas of finding deeper meaning you can't find it because they're saying employee engagement is low. And people aren't feeling being fulfilled at work. They need a sense of purpose. They need a sense of meaning and work in life. What advice would you give to someone feeling disconnected or unfulfilled in their current? I'm gonna say career because I actually believe you should bring spirituality to work, which just didn't work oftentimes doesn't let people bring their spirituality, the workplace.
Donald Johnson
Yeah, I mean, there's some environments where, you know, the company will tout, like, Come as you are, and be who you are at work. And then that turns out to be not true. And then there's other companies that will advertise that. And it is true, I was fortunate in that my career I got very, I was lucky in that I worked for companies where I really felt I couldn't bring my whole self to the table. And I even though the work that I did, was, you know, in it was work that was it was helping people be better leaders that was engaging for me. However, the deeper meaning for me was always that there was always something else for me, and that was my inner work that I took in whatever job I went to. And I also took the fact that I want to be balanced. I worked really, really hard. But I always had something outside of work that I could, that was my passion that I could sink my teeth into. It might have been music, or it might have been tennis, or it might have been my family, it might, whatever it was, I found, I said, I've got to find a way, where I'm not just going to be like a robotic clone. And I'm just going to be like, you know, find myself like one of those characters in office space. I just didn't, I just I was like, No, I'm not going there. I know, I know, I'm going to pay a price for being in corporate America, I'm gonna get dirty. I'm down in the in the weeds and all that. But I'm going to, I'm going to try to do my best to have a life outside of work. And the reality of it is to if I really don't like my job, I have a choice. And this is this is like the same choice that we all have, that we sometimes forget about. We go to a restaurant, that what's the one thing that they never tell us? When you go to a restaurant, you have the option to get up and leave anytime you want, as long as you pay your bill if you ordered food, but you don't have to stay there if you don't like it. Same at a job. I get to choose, do I want to stay here and suffer? Or do I want to find another job and try to do something else? It's my responsibility to make the choice. But within that, I empathize with people who are in really tough jobs. And I say, I wish you the best to find, find love, find peace, find happiness, find something that can help you nurture your own heart, you know, through this through this period of time when you're not having a great time at work. I get it. So
Greg Voisen
well, you know, and I'll echo podcasts we recently did with Chip Conley, you know, there's this whole thing about midlife. Well, midlife is happening later and later for people. And they go, you've talked about midlife crisis where they're, they're actually questioning relationships or christening work, they're questioning a lot of different things. And I'll put a shout out to that podcast people listen to that podcast that chip does, he has a whole institute in Santa Fe, New Mexico and in Mexico, where people gathered together of these age groups and capacities to come together and talk about finding deeper meaning and purpose in both their life and work. So again, as you said, wake up, become more conscious, ask questions. And this brings me to this last question for this podcast. And that is the importance of curiosity and listening and building a better world. I think many people out there who listen to this podcast are extremely curious. And they're seekers. And I said that at the beginning of the show, and I always like to help those kinds of people, because they're looking and it's not that they're looking just to make something different. They're looking to make something better. Okay, I know thinking remarkable, is one of the ways to do that, is to really be a remarkable person to actually step out and do the things that maybe other people want. But how can individuals cultivate these qualities in their everyday interactions to foster more conscious and connected community?
Donald Johnson
Ask, what is it that I don't know? Meaning, I meet someone, and I, you know, we judge people within five to seven seconds upon meeting them, do I like them? Do I not like them? Do I feel safe around them? Do I not feel safe? And that that little moment, there is important to say to yourself, What don't I know, maybe start with that as a way to get to know someone. I did this one time and in a business environment. The first thing I got on the phone with a guy. And I said, Hey, Paul, I know this about you. But let's start with what we don't know about each other. And that was a way for him to speak and be deliberative vice, vice versa. And you know what? It's it I think about that, each day, I asked myself about this situation before I judge it. What don't I know?
Greg Voisen
That is a wonderful piece of wisdom and advice. What don't you know about someone and then train asking them the question? What is it that I don't know about you? I don't think very many people ask that. They make a lot of assumptions of what they might think they know. Only because they heard it third person, right? Oh, you know, Paul, is this or Paul, is that or you know, Don, is this or Greg is that? You know, we hear that all the time. But the reality of having a heart to heart conversation with the person themselves and feeling comfortable. And I think the key you might address is, you know, I'm curious. But I think one way to frame that is you could say Hey, Paul, I'm curious what Isn't that I don't know about you that I should know, that can make this relationship better. And it's all about how you frame the question as to whether or not somebody's going to feel comfortable answering that question or even engaging with you. So you know, with that, let me ask you this question dun dun, out of my sense of curiosity, what is it that I don't know about you that I should know about you? That would make it easier for me to better understand you as a person, and what you would like to contribute to the world?
Donald Johnson
I think, you know, you probably do know a lot about me, because you read my book, my whole life is in the darn book. But you know, honestly, I think I think what you don't know is that I feel I feel like a beginner on this path. I really do. Like, you know, I'm, I've, um, so far from I've come so far, in many ways, I've grown a lot. But boy, there's a lot more, there's a lot more to grow. And I'm, what you don't know is I'm a, I'm a learner, I want to I want to keep I want to keep learning. I'm 72, almost 73 years old. And I'm far from I'm far from being over being curious. You know, I just, I think I think that's what you know, it's just like, I'm just the guy who was driving a big piece of machinery in a stone quarry. When I started my spiritual search, and I've just had average guy, and nobody special, but I've got a thirst. I've got a thirst to know. And, and that helps me be a better person. That curiosity.
Greg Voisen
Well, Don Johnson, thank you from tayport, Scotland, for joining us today and speaking about your book, will you hold up your cell phone again? So people see the book? Yeah, my,
Donald Johnson
my, my pseudo book, because the book, the book doesn't come out in the UK until the end of July. And yeah, I'm still waiting to get my first copy. So here's my little cell phone. There.
Greg Voisen
There's his cell phone book for all my listeners, you can go to the website, we'll put a link to Amazon. It is up on Amazon. It's both in Kindle version and in paperback version. You don't it's not a hardback book, right. It's just paperback. Yeah, so enjoy this book, Don, it's been a pleasure having you on the show, providing us with Your wisdom, telling us a little bit of your life story, and providing us with some advice and expertise that many of us should follow. And if we did take a couple of tidbits from this interview, I hope that you understand that one of it's around forgiveness, the other one's around compassion and understanding, and most importantly, forgiveness of self forgiveness of others, compassion for self and compassion for other others. Thanks for being on inside personal growth.
Donald Johnson
Greg, my pleasure, thank you for having me.
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Inside Personal Growth with Greg Voisen · Podcast 1132: Healing and Cancer with Dr. Wayne JonasFor today’s episode, Dr. Wayne Jonas shared profound insights from his new co-authored book, Healing and Cancer: A Guide to Whole Person Care. Alongside co-author Alyssa McManamon, Dr. Jonas explores a holistic approach to cancer care that integrates traditional medicine with lifestyle and emotional well-being.
Dr. Jonas emphasizes that true healing extends beyond mere curing. While modern medicine excels at treating diseases, it often overlooks the broader aspects of healing, which include physical, social, emotional, and spiritual dimensions. He argues that 80% of health and healing occur outside the doctor’s office, rooted in one’s environment, lifestyle, and personal connections.
A key takeaway from Dr. Jonas’s work is the critical importance of social connections. Research, such as the long-term study from Harvard Medical School, highlights that strong social relationships are the most significant factor in maintaining health and happiness. Dr. Jonas underscores that loneliness and social isolation can have devastating effects on both mental and physical health.
For those battling cancer, Dr. Jonas advocates for an integrative approach that combines cutting-edge medical treatments with holistic care. This includes paying attention to diet, exercise, stress management, and nurturing meaningful relationships. By addressing these broader aspects of health, patients can improve their quality of life and, in some cases, even enhance their chances of recovery.
Dr. Jonas’s book is a valuable resource for both healthcare professionals and patients, offering practical advice and scientific insights into whole person care. It serves as a reminder that healing is not just about eliminating disease, but about fostering overall well-being and finding joy in life. And aside from this new book, he also wrote How Healing Works: Get Well and Stay Well Using Your Hidden Power to Heal few years ago.
For more information on Dr. Wayne Jonas and his approach to holistic cancer care, visit healingandcancerbook.com.
You may also refer to the transcripts below for the full transciption (not edited) of the interview.
Interview Transcipt -Not EditedEmailDownloadNew TabGreg Voisen
Well, welcome back to Inside Personal Growth. This is Greg Voisen, the host of Inside Personal Growth. And joining me from you're in Virginia, right? What city are you in in Virginia?
Dr. Wayne Jonas
Alexandria, Virginia.
Greg Voisen
Alexandria, Virginia, is Dr. Wayne Jonas. And Dr. Jonas today is going to be speaking with all of us about his new book out. And it's a co-authored book and I'll give you the co-authors name in a minute, Healing and Cancer: A Guide to Whole Person Care. And Alyssa McManamon is also his copartner, or I should say, co-author, and you can actually find out more about them. They have a beautiful, beautiful website at healingandcancerbook.com and we'll put a link to that as well. There you can learn about the book, the authors, and there's a whole resource section. And this has been published by healing works foundation and wrote in books. So, the healing works foundation is your foundation. Is that correct? Dr. Jonas?
Dr. Wayne Jonas
Yes.
Greg Voisen
So I'm going to let my listeners know a tad bit about you before we take a deep dive into the book. And I'm going to also say from my listening audience, the predecessor book was how healing works, we're actually going to throw a few questions regarding that book. It's not a prerequisite that you read the first book before the second one. But if you are so inclined, we're going to put links to both of those. So, doctor, join it. Jonas is a widely published investigator practicing family physician and professor of medicine at Georgetown University, and at Uniformed Services University, a Health Sciences. He is also retired lieutenant colonel in the Marine Corps of the United States Army. Dr. Jonas was the director of the Office of alternative medicine at the National Institutes of Health, from 1995 to 1999. And Laura led the World Health Organization's collaborative center for traditional medicine. Prior to that he served as the Director of Medical Research Fellowship at Walter Reed Army Institute of Research, he now advises national and international organizations on ways to implement evidence based healing practices in their medical systems. He serves as the president of healing works Foundation. And this book, we're going to be talking about healing and cancer a guide the whole person, as I said, co authored with Alisa released in April. Well, Dr. John is thanks for being on the show. And spending some time and I think a really important time because not has cancer has been with us for a very, very long time. But there just seems to be this growing amount of it. And I want to talk about, you discuss the importance of the whole person care. And I recognize, you know, there's the pharmacist and there's the doctor, and there's the oncologist. And there's these people in our team and people that help us, but can you elaborate on what whole person care means and why it's crucial, and cancer treatment?
Dr. Wayne Jonas
Happy to do that. And thank you for having me on your show, Greg. And I'm honored to actually add to the tremendous portfolio of information and people that you've had about development. So appreciate that. Yeah, I've had the good fortune, just the luck, if you will, of being able to really get into the depths of basic hardcore science around healing at the NIH. I've had the opportunity when I ran a who center for traditional research, medicine research to go around the world looking at different approaches to healing from cultures all over the world. And then the Samueli foundation that also funded healing works foundation that we've spun off about a year and a half ago. I had the great fortune to work for them for many, many years, just exploring with many partners about the science of healing, how does healing happen? What are the underlying mechanisms of that? And so what I tried to describe in my first book and what No, we are applying and Dr. McMahon and I are playing in the area of cancer is the learnings of that effort about where healing comes from where health comes from. And let me just do a spoiler alert here to your audience. Only about 15 to 20% of it comes from walking in and seeing your doctor a very small amount actually comes from that 80% of health and healing, including the recovery sometimes for many chronic diseases comes from outside the doctor's office, it comes from you your environment where you're at. To accomplish that, however, you have to pay attention to who you are as a person, right, you can't ignore some of you and say, Oh, well, I won't pay attention to the social and emotional, I won't pay attention to the spiritual, I won't pay attention to what I eat or what I do during the day and then expect it to follow you right, you have to pay attention to the to that. And over the years, as we pulled together, some of the examples of what was being done all over the world, we realized it was very easy to capture this in sort of four areas. And if you just pay attention to those four areas, healing will be catalyzed your own inherent healing capacity will be catalyzed. And very often, it can sometimes even lead to cure, although we'll talk about the difference between healing and cure, which are there. And those four dimensions really are paying attention, obviously, to the external environment that you're in. If you're in an environment where you can't get good food, you can't have shelter, the basic Maslow's bottom of the pyramid hierarchy, then you're gonna have challenges and we see this now with a growing area of homelessness, social determinant problems. If your earth is toxic, you know, then you are immersed in pollution and other things that are going to impair your body's ability to heal. And it's going to actually stimulate disease. So you got to pay attention to the external environment that you're in. Obviously, that is getting more and more attention nowadays. The second one, which is about your behavior, got to take care of the body and the mind, right, you just got to do the basics. And there's not it's not all that difficult. Sometimes it's difficult to do on a day to day basis, if you're very, very busy. But the fundamentals are very easy. A healthy diet, which is very clearly been tested and shown. Okay, plant based, Mediterranean like diet with healthy oils and that type of thing. movement and activity doesn't have to be a huge amount of exercise. But getting out and walking, especially in nature, huge health benefits, sleep, absolutely essential for the function of all areas of your body and your mind in those areas. And stress and stress management are key in those areas. Well,
Greg Voisen
you kind of you, you obviously approach this from a functional medicine standpoint. Well, the general medicine
Dr. Wayne Jonas
parts, okay, the medicine parts, but as you'll see in both my first book and this book, those, if you limit yourself just to those, you're missing half the world, okay? You're missing half the world, because the other two dimensions are your social and emotional body. Everybody has a social and emotional body, that connectivity to the relationships, the love that you experience with others. And in fact, the largest longitudinal study of what are the factors that lead to a healthy and long life done, you know, by over three generations at Harvard Medical School, when they looked at all of the risk factors, the number one factor that kept people healthy and happy. Was their social connections. Okay. Yeah. The social I mean, it could be, I'm not advocating smoking, but smoking was not even first, right. Okay. It was the social and emotional connections. And beyond that, it had to be something that gave them joy. So it had to connect to something meaningful for them. And that means the mental and the spiritual components of it. So that's the fourth dimension, the deeper part, what really matters. Why are you here on this earth? And do you get up every day and saying, I'm gonna do something to express joy, happiness and health in the earth that I live in? Well,
Greg Voisen
it's so imperative what you're talking about. Not that long ago, Dan Buettner was on here. And you know, it's the Blue Zones, right. And all the studies that National Geographic I did with him and how people eat Mediterranean diet, which you just mentioned, or eat a diet, basic plant based diet was a big factor. But the bigger factors were what you just said, social connection, meaning, you know, who I'm linked with, and my spirituality, and I thought, what you just said is so important yet, you know, what we're talking about these days, Dr. Jonas, the loneliness epidemic, the numbers of people that are actually dying in their homes and people don't even know that they've passed away. Right until some neighbor calls and says, you know, this and they they're sitting there lonely. Do you have any comment about that because of the you you look at the psychological impact of loneliness. It's just so devastating, both for dementia for all kinds of things when it happens when you age. Right. So, a lot I'd love your comment on this. Because, you know, we haven't had too many authors on here talking specifically about loneliness, but the effects of loneliness. Yeah,
Dr. Wayne Jonas
well, you should get the Surgeon General, the current Surgeon General on your show about it, because he's talking about this all the time. Yeah. And it isn't just the mental effects. It is literally the physical effects and your very mortality, your very survival is dependent upon that I mentioned the Harvard study that showed that social connection, the opposite of loneliness actually was the biggest factor in that. I'll give you an example. My mother died a few months ago at 97. Okay. She had no major health problems, okay. And she died peacefully with her family all around her. She had huge social connections when the COVID pandemic came along. And they started isolating, you know, people and in assisted living homes, which is where she was, she started to decline, absolutely decline. And we said, this is no, this is the end of it, she is going to die. We had to move her to a place where she could get that social connection. You know, the word social isolation they used was the wrong word. It should have been physical isolation and social connection. Okay. And so we moved her to a place where she had companionship, her family could actually come and visit her be part of that. And she just took off, she was losing weight before then she started gaining gaining weight, she got COVID. And she survived it. She got through it at 97 in those areas. And she lived for many years after, you know, a couple of years, several years after that. And And finally, she just decided, Okay, I'm done. And she stopped eating, the family gathered around her, they sang to her, they gave her love, they interacted and then she stopped breathing. She had what's called a good death. And that is the that's the that's, you know, we always talk about having a good life. But we don't talk about having a good death. Right? We should plan for a good death. And it's the social component that allows for that to happen.
Greg Voisen
Yeah, I had a lady on here from New York, a doctor who wrote a book called The Art of dying. Oh, that was fantastic. Because you know, 80% of people, I think that was the number die in a hospital. Yeah. In other words, they're dying someplace where they don't really want to die. Yeah, right. Most people's wish would be to be at home or be someplace peaceful, like your mom. But that was interesting. Now you emphasize the concept of healing over curing. You just mentioned that about five minutes ago. How do you differentiate between healing and curing in the context of cancer care? Because it's, it's one thing to say healing. It's another thing to say, Oh, I'm in 100% remission at this point. Right?
Dr. Wayne Jonas
Yeah, well, we'll talk about cancer specifically in a minute. But let me just correct you here. I don't emphasize healing over curing, I say we need to rebalance healing, and curing together, we need to integrate them there is an intimate relationship between healing and curing. And we have lost the healing part of it. Because we have focused so much on waiting until the disease occurs. And then throwing a lot of technologies and science and treatments at it usually very costly. And we neglect the part of recovery, reintegration. Risk Factor, mitigation, prevention, etc. We pay attention, we don't pay attention to the, the wholeness, that brings the quality of our life back into alignment. So we need to balance this we need to rebalance this and integrate healing and caring, you know, the, the root word of healing actually comes from the same word. That means wholeness being whole mind body spirit, which I just described these dimensions of that, and holy, which fundamentally means connected to everything, right, connected to everything, meaning purpose and transformation, what really matters to you and your life. And so he he emerges out of finding that holiness, that connection, that wholeness Okay, in your relationships, in your work in your other efforts in those areas, and sometimes that and your behavior and your lifestyle, and sometimes that actually leads to a cure. Okay? If you only focus on the cure, sometimes you get better, okay. But I have had many patients that have been cured of their disease, but have not been healed and are suffering tremendously. They're isolated, they're lonely, they're miserable, etc. Even And when their disease goes away, they live in fear. And this happens in cancer all the time. Okay? There's no evidence of a disease we treated you and went away. But now I sit in fear as I go in every month or every six months and get screened and tested and everything, and how am I living my life in between? Okay, I've been given some extra life, but is it life? Or is it actually, you know, a towering under the fear of death. So we need to actually put the healing component of it, the well being cover and the wholeness, the holiness part of it, what matters most to you in your life back into routine health care. And that's the goal of the healing works foundation that I run right now make this routine and standard integrated in with medical treatment, healing and curing. Well,
Greg Voisen
what you've just said, I think most listeners out there can relate to, you know, that we've always heard this fear as the false expectation appearing real, you know, if you're waiting for that test to come back, and you're thinking, Oh, my gosh, you know, it could could come back positive, and you don't live your life in between, it's really a shame that you haven't psychologically looked at that pattern, and tried to shift that pattern that you've created around the fear associated with that. I mean, my wife and I were making a comment, and this is just an off the wall comment. But, you know, we have this great walkway by the beach, where you can walk your dogs, and it's a big long walk path. And we still see people today, and I'm just, this is just a comment, you're out in this beautiful environment, and they're wearing masks and gloves. And I'm like, Really, you're gonna have that kind of fear to move around. And society still today, after COVID Isn't hardly even being mentioned anymore, you know, let alone anything, and still have masks and gloves on. So, you know, just because that probably
Dr. Wayne Jonas
a good chunk of them are looking at their phones to they're not even they're not even present.
Greg Voisen
That's, that's true. So, you know, I'd like to know, and I think our listeners would what inspired you to shift your focus toward this whole person care in oncology. And what personal experience influenced this approach, because I'm gonna make a sub statement here, the La Jolla Institute of immunology, I've actually gone to many of their meetings, and they've asked me to sit on the board. And there used to be this approach, you can cut it out, you can radiate it, or now you can have an infusion therapy. So I asked this question, because I am a little bit well versed on this because I have spoken with the doctors of the LOI Institute of immunology and other places. And it's fascinating the progression that's being made through infusion. It can you comment on this oncology, because, you know, when you think of oncology, what you think about as well, the first thing they're gonna do is radiate me to death, you know it and it's in, it's one of the fears, I think people have just a side note, my son got chronic myelogenous leukemia, and he's 21. He's now 42, Chad at 21 years. And the first thing they want to do at City of Hope was to do the oncology routine. But a drug had come along called Gleevec. And he said, Dad, I'm gonna go ahead and take leave back, right. And I'm not gonna go do the oncology route, which I'm so glad he didn't. Because today, he's still alive and surviving on a drug called Spry cell and doing wonderfully well and have had two kids, which they said he would never have, either. So there's a great example of something that there's so many places we can go these days to find new ways to heal.
Dr. Wayne Jonas
Yeah, that is a great example. And you have alluded to some breakthroughs that are now going on in in cancer and oncology, that have are resulting from our investments in the war on cancer, you know, for so many years, which, you know, has resulted in a huge advance in understanding what cancer is, you know, people used to think cancer is different, right? Okay. You know, it's, it's that rogue tumor, and it starts growing. And the main thing you need to do is cut it or kill it or burn it or something like that. Just get rid of that cell and that you're fine. We now know from extensive research that I described in the book, actually, that actually cancer is not a rogue cell by itself, it actually occurs within a very complex environment, of the immune system of inflammation, even the microbiome, metabolism, etcetera. It's called a tumor microenvironment and there's now 10 or 12 hallmarks of that biology that show how the body is an integral part of the cancer. development, and the macro environment, then surrounding that influences all of those areas. And so really to take care of cancer using good science nowadays, you have to pay attention to the macro environment, not just killing the tumor, yes, gotta get rid of the tumor, it's not behaving the way it's supposed to, but then change the environment around it. So the immune system is paying attention to it instead of ignoring it, so that the inflammatory processes are less so that your microbiome and your health is, is improved. And this is where both the science and the evidence, the clinical evidence showing that behavior, lifestyle, social support, huge issue, people that have high social support, have a 20 with cancer have a 25% greater chance of living five years and no have low social support to get back to our discussion on that. Pay attention to you as a whole person increased your health and well being and integrate that into to the cancer treatment. And that's what this book is about.
Greg Voisen
And you do a great job, because I saw many of the charts and diagrams in here. In particular, what you were talking about were the hallmarks. And I would point out to my listeners, at the end of each chapter is also the summary points. And and he does an excellent job, or both authors do an excellent job of not only outlining this, but allowing you to really understand it easily because this is a book, that's actually as much for the layperson, as it would be for a doctor wanting to learn more about doing this, and I think that's important to state is that healing and cancer, this book is for anybody. It's not just written for physicians, although there's a lot of physicians that should reread this book, because they're not practicing that particular way. Now, let me switch gears for a second, because we said we'd explore both books, but in the how healing works, which is the predecessor of subrack, you explore the science behind healing, could you share some of the key scientific findings that support and the FSK see around the whole person care in cancer treatment, because there actually is, as you said, you've you've done a lot of studies, you used to work in NIH, this is the place where lots of millions of dollars go each year and grants go back out again to other people. Because the government funds this to as matter of fact, Illinois Institute of immunology gets 60 million a year from NIH. So that's a big part of their funding. So it's important that this work is being done, because it's actually advancing new techniques and diagnostics. And in helping to find healing and cures for cancer.
Dr. Wayne Jonas
Now be happy to do that, in the how healing works book, we take a deep dive into sort of the four dimensions of, of healing and the human being and, and have whole sections on on the science of that. And what we did in the cancer book is that we took that and we pulled out the research of both in the basic science and in the clinical research in where it applies specifically to cancer in those areas. And so there's there's a number of examples of that. So if we summarize the science, but then we pull it together in terms of an implementation tool. So the first part is a description of why this is important. The second part of the book is about the science and its application, and how it's done. The third part are practical tools. Okay? What do you do? If you're a patient? What do you do? If you're an oncologist? What do you do if you're in a cancer team that's taking care of people? What do you do if your family members in those areas? And then also what do you do if you are running a cancer center on a system, a hospital, etc? How do you make sure this is part of, of what is embedded into the culture in those areas? And so that third part is the practical tools and we can talk about that. There's some great examples of, of in the cancer area where the evidence is very clear. Okay. We've already mentioned one of those and that's social support. Okay. And the the huge advantage than having high social support, being embedded in love, okay, actually keeps you living better and keeps your living longer. Even if the cancer doesn't get cured. A second one that I think is is equally important and has extensive research is the importance of being active. Okay, physically active exercise. It's amazing if you go into your doctor's office, and they tell you oh, you should rest. Okay. Go to bed and just rest and sleep. Sleep is important. But if you're not active, then you know your body actually can't fight the cancer and there's chemical So now that are secreted by the muscles when you're active, that inhibit cancer progression and growth, they've actually shown that and as little as 30 minutes of walking a day can significantly reduce the likelihood for example of recurrence in breast cancer, you know, after it's been treated, so that's important. The third area is the diet. And, you know, it used to be that all that was quackery, right, you know, cure your cancer with diet and the Gerson diet and all that kind of stuff. They didn't know the science back then. But now it's beginning to emerge. And the way it's emerging is the combination of immuno oncology how the immune system interacts with cancer, and the microbiome, which is in your gut, the bacteria that are in your gut, which are intimately related to how well the immune system functions. And there's now research showing that an individual that was not responding to an immunotherapy drug, okay, and their cancer was advancing, change their microbiome, okay. And now they started to respond to the drug, okay, and actually now worked in those areas. This is a new area, it's it's an expanding area, but it's going to become extremely important that we pay attention to to this, you know, most oncologists, you go, and they just say, well eat whatever you want. And we now know, that's probably not good advice, there's probably good, you know, good dietary advice that not only can help cancer, but it also can help with your moods, can help with your energy can help reduce other risk factors, you know, huge number of cancer patients, most of them will die of something besides their cancer, because we're now able to treat these cancers and people are living longer, right. And so Hey, pay attention to cardiovascular problems, pay attention to diabetes, pay attention to the other risk factors, you know, which which are also can prevent a long and healthy life. And many of those we now know, can be addressed through behavior, social support, lifestyle, sleep, and meaning and purpose in life.
Greg Voisen
I would say you hit it right on because all of those factors, if somebody was to look at the matrix, you know, of, or the tapestry, you know, their life. And if social is a big area, because we recognize that the brain chemistry changes, the more social you are, the more interaction you have, the better that the brain chemistry, the release of the oxytocin's, the release of the serotonin, your psychological health is better, you actually make better decisions for yourself. When you're that way, you're also keeping your brain active and away from deterioration of something like Alzheimer's. They know that when people are socially, having more connection with people, there's less and less Alzheimer's. So all these things you point out are there. Now if somebody is in the middle, and we have listeners, I'm sure of dealing with some diagnosis around cancer. And you're talking about the role of the care team? How can the care teams be trained to integrate the whole person principles into their daily routines? And what would you recommend because, you know, Steve Berman, Dr. Berman recommended me to you. And his is healing beyond pills and potions. And you guys are friends. And I, I personally have dove into this in a big way as a result of Steve and many others. And I think that the way a doctor communicates the way a team communicates to the person who's dealing with this is so extremely important. And I want you to address this as part of how I would find a team, find a team that's whole person centered. Do you have any places where people can go on the internet and search this out? What would you tell folks are listening?
Dr. Wayne Jonas
Yeah, no, I think that is essential to do to do that, and find that kind of a team. We give examples. So a lot of the information in this book emerged out of a two year program, that healing works foundation ran with cancer leaders all over the country. There were 13 different cancer Leaders Summit, major academic centers, some in community oncology centers, others out there, you know, providing primary care support for cancer care, nurses, patients, social workers. We had a whole group of team members, and we had successfully put in concepts, tools, practice transformation components for whole person care into primary care into general medicine and we're still supporting that process. But that's going on that is left the barn it's in the definitions from the National Academy of Medicine, HHS, Health and Human Services of a DA optogenetic cetera, that's moving forward. And we realized that it wasn't happening as effectively in cancer care. And so we needed to do more than that. And that's really where a huge amount of suffering was, was occurring. And so we worked with this leadership group over two years, to develop tools and examples of how to do this in practice, how to create it out of fine teams and develop teams that provide this type of care. And so the book is just one element. But if you go on our website, you will see the results of this leadership groups work. And we do briefly describe some examples from these different centers around the country at the end of the book, but you'll see a case examples of how it's happening. We provide tools for practice improvement. So if you have a team member that says, Hey, I'd like to do more of this, there's a step by step way to do that practice improvement in there and embedded into your practice. If you're a solo practitioner, or even a patient working with a an oncologist or working with a oncology team, there are tools in there that allow them to do that. One of that, for example, is the personal health inventory. It's a simple two page questionnaire that allows the cancer team and the patient to talk to talk together and find out what's important for the patient in their cancer care. incorporate that into the management plan, in the for the treatment of the cancer, enhance their part of that the patient's part of that and then support that process. One of the first questions
Greg Voisen
might I might ask you, Dr. Jonas, I'm sorry to interrupt you. But what's coming up for me is when you work in a team, you've got to define roles, and you got to know what direction you're headed in. And there usually is a champion, who who is the champion for you know, let's say somebody out there listening is like, Okay, I got diagnostic data, I got diagnosed with cancer. They say I have to go to the oncologist. Now, that's where all the questions start coming in. And I think a lot of these people have a lot of fear and anxiety around that diagnosis. And I think frequently, they just take the path that was given to them by somebody without them, not a lot of people will go get second opinions, I get that. But a lot of people are just afraid by the diagnosis itself. So what would you say to get a good team? To what strategies would you recommend that patients engage in in their own care to mitigate not only these feelings? Because I think they need to take control? I don't know if this is what you believe, but I think it is, I think you're your own best advocate. And the reality is, you have to kind of take control of what's going on here. Would that be true?
Dr. Wayne Jonas
Well, it is true, and it's not true. Okay. Yes, you do have to do that. But the way you do that cannot depend on you only as a cancer patient, okay? Because when you get cancer boy, as you say, it's fear. It's like, what do I do? You know, the whole discussion coming from the from the oncologist and the cancer team, you know, makes no sense. What is it, you know, you don't understand the language. So you have to go in to this with an advocate. Okay, this is where the social support comes in. You have to some have someone that's going to be your champion that will accompany you and be part of your journey. In other words, you have to have your own team, okay? Your own team that's paying attention to what you need, even when you can't see it. Okay? And make sure that's brought in. So yes, you do need to have be, you know, your own advocate, okay. But if you don't have a companion advocate, it becomes extremely difficult to do. So make sure you have a champion that comes along with you. One of the one of the senators that we worked with, embrace this so much that they actually created an entire patient champion unit, okay. So that every patient that walked into their cancer center would meet with a navigator someone that would help them in the system, an advocate and a patient appear representative, somebody who had been through the journey before, knew what was going to come because you didn't know what was going to come and could help advise you and support you in that process. That patient champion view visit then was integrated with the oncology team team to provide well person in person centered care. So pay attention to that, find your own team, find your advocate, and make sure you use that and that's the best way to start being empowered. Now as you get more experienced more involved in that. You can take some of those things on yourself and as you get into the, to the cancer journey itself personally. But but that would be my number one recommendation for patients.
Greg Voisen
Good. That's good advice. And, and I, I know in the book, there's, you know, we could probably talk all day on this particular question, but the whole integrative and complementary therapies in cancer care. You know, today, there are a lot of alternatives, there's ways to go. Can you provide some examples of the various therapies and their benefits, and I know, look, we're not talking about a specific cancer, we're just talking about things like Tai Chi, Yoga, meditation, many of the very proven simple techniques that if people started a practice of it, as you said, the bodies moving a practice of yoga would help, a practice of meditation can be extremely spiritual, can help you make a connection to a higher source, whatever it is, is you're going to work through the chakras in the body, all this functional medicine, and integrative medicine is really the role of it, is to integrate this in along with the other practices, correct. That
Dr. Wayne Jonas
is correct. And we actually talk about that extensively in the book, the best way to approach this and to work with your, the oncology teams is to go to the guidelines that are now out, and more to come that have been put together by the American Society of Clinical Oncology, ASCO, and the Society for Integrative oncology jointly, si Oh, so the sandy Wiley Foundation funded five guidelines development healing works is then supported that further. And there's there's three or four of them that are out right now. And they synthesize the science, the research evidence to show what actually works. And these are things that should be implemented in you can ask for, and, and very often are already available in many of these cancer centers. But oftentimes, the oncology team doesn't even know about, okay, they're actually there. So they just need to they need to get connected here within their own environment, okay, within their own hospital. Examples of our of those are for pain, for example, good evidence now showing that acupuncture works for pain, it's very helpful for pain. Okay. It's helpful for different types of cancer related pain, including peripheral neuropathy that some of the chemo therapies will produce. It's useful for joint pain that's produced from what are called AI inhibitors. aromatase inhibitors for their home hormone blockers, often used in breast cancer, people get joint pain for that acupuncture works really well for that. So integrating acupuncture as a modality, when those are implemented are key. A guideline just came out on on a
Greg Voisen
night I mentioned, besides the acupuncture, I'm going to be a big advocate for people because I have a massage therapist that comes to the house here a couple times a month, there's nothing better than a good massage every so often, to move not only the muscles, but also in your Olympic lands. You know, you've got all kinds of things going on. And I think that I would just speak up for the massage therapists they'd
Dr. Wayne Jonas
Well, the massage was actually on their guidelines list, it didn't have the same level of evidence as acupuncture hair was still there. So absolutely. Take a look at the guidelines. There's lots of good information there. A recent guideline just came out on anxiety and depression. All right, the mitigation of the fear and that people often get into in those areas, and very good evidence, a plus evidence for Mind Body practices, meditation, mindfulness, mindfulness based cognitive behavioral therapy, you know, heart rate variability, training, biofeedback, a lot of the stuff that Steve Berman you just mentioned to us hypnosis, etc. Those those types of practices are extremely helpful in helping to mitigate anxiety and depression. You can't you don't have to just throw a drug attack, okay, you can actually build the person's ability to be resilient, and manage that on their own. So take these guidelines, there's a new one out just out on fatigue, for example, that has lots of recommendations of those kinds of complementary and alternative types of practices that now have sufficient evidence that they should be part of routine care.
Greg Voisen
Well, you read this book, and again, I'm going to hold it up for my listeners, healing and cancer is the book that you want to go get, whether you have cancer or not. I think it's also great knowledge to know, to be able to talk with others in an intelligent manner about what's available, because I've had this discussion with friends, right. And people who've been recently diagnosed And this is one of those books that gives you a way to talk about the whole person model. And really, to provide some very practical advice. And I'm going to recommend to my listeners to advise to go to the healing and cancer website, a healing and cancer book.com that Dr. Jonas is put up, he also has his healing works Foundation, dot O R G website, which I can highly recommend that you go to. But Dr. Jonas in the time remaining, looking into the future, what changes would you like to see and oncology practices to ensure that the whole person care becomes a standard approach in cancer treatment versus something that right now is maybe not a standard approach, it's really, you know, you're right now leading the charge, you're, you're the head of the forefront at the tip of the spear, as they say, to make more awareness about what's available. And like you just said, sometimes in their own practices, they don't even know that this, these things exist, because they're not being communicated. So as the great communicator that you are, what would you like to see happen and change for this to be a standard approach. So
Dr. Wayne Jonas
I think there's three main challenges in this area that needs to need to happen in order to make this routine and regular. The first one actually is our mindset. We, we put 80%, or plus of our resources into a disease treatment model, where we study what I learned in medical school pathogenesis, okay, the creation of pathology of disease, and in that we wait till disease occurs, and then we throw a bunch of stuff in it that cost a lot of money that's expensive. That only partially works. And it doesn't really reverse the disease processes. In those areas, it doesn't produce saluto Genesis, the generation of health, which is going on in parallel, so we need to create a salutogenic process, just like the disease treatment process, we haven't put them together, okay, so that's shifting our mindset to saluted Genesis. The second thing is that we need to actually have the tools to do that in practice. And this means we have to teach it in medical school, the University of California, Irvine has an entire program for medical students on this goes through all four years that teaches them how to do this from ground one, many other medical schools are developing that nursing schools have been ahead of the game for a long time in this area, in those arrows. So we need to teach that we have CME courses, and continuing education courses that that have been produced with some of our funding out of Tufts University that are available free to focus on whole person care and pain and primary care and now in cancer. So go get those you can educate yourself in those areas, then we need the tools in practice. So the hope tools are a set of tools you can implement into practice you can do and into your everyday interaction with patients and the electronic medical record. Actually, there's ways to embed that into that. So it becomes something tractable and trackable and manageable. And then the third thing I would say is that we need to support it with resources, we need to pay for it. Okay. The Veterans Administration has built an entire program called Hole health and dumped a ton of resources into building these healing oriented kind of practices and making it available for veterans throughout their system. We need that kind of investment in health care for the whole country. And I
Greg Voisen
think that not to interrupt you, but the reality is that our governmental levels and our insurance company levels, actuaries and statisticians are beginning to correlate to the fact that they understand that if you implement these practices, that the cost to the system reduces tremendously as a result of premiums that are being paid by individuals these days in the area of of Medicare, which we know needs to get under control, because of the amount of use by people these days. Fortunately, we've got a good system like that. But my point is, it all comes down to statistics, you know, so much money in so much money out. How do we reduce the amount of time people are spending at the doctor and or the care they need? We we've heard the statistic and many people out there know that the bulk of Medicare claims come from page I think it's age 75 or something to age 90. So I think it's pretty close to 80% of the medical claims costs are coming in. But imagine what we could do. Like Dr. Jonas said, to your mother or your father, or you live to 97 and just have a peaceful death. That's what we really want without too much cost and drag on the system. And that's really kind of where this is all going. Right? Is what I say that true?
Dr. Wayne Jonas
No, that's absolutely right. If you want to have whole person care, you have to pay for whole person care, right? If you're paying, if you're making money, and you're paying for a pill and a procedure, you're gonna get a lot of pills and procedures, right? Don't you bundle that into something that truly addresses the underlying drivers of health, these inherent things that create health, you save money in that entire package, a lot of money, actually a lot of money, the solution to reducing our health care costs is actually to shift to a whole person payment model.
Greg Voisen
Go get this book, everybody. And Dr. Jonas, it's been a pleasure having you on inside personal growth, you really have provided a wealth of knowledge, wisdom, expertise in this arena. That was really great for my listeners, I appreciate you being on the show. And thank you, thank you so much for taking the time to be with us.
Dr. Wayne Jonas
Well, thank you, Greg, for having me and for all the stuff that you do to help advance healing and personal growth.
Greg Voisen
Thanks again, Dr. Jonas for being on the show.
Dr. Wayne Jonas
Thank you, Greg. My pleasure.
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Inside Personal Growth with Greg Voisen · Podcast 1131: Team with David Allen and Edward Lamont
For today’s episode, we’re excited to share insights from productivity experts David Allen and Edward Lamont. These two have joined forces to wrote Team: Getting Things Done with Others. The book builds on the success of David Allen’s bestseller Getting Things Done, offering fresh perspectives on team productivity.
About the Authors
David Allen is an internationally recognized author and productivity expert. His book Getting Things Done has been hailed as the definitive business self-help book of the decade by Time magazine.
Edward Lamont is the co-founder and senior partner of Next Action Associates, a GTD partner in the UK and Ireland. With over 25 years of experience in executive coaching and training, Edward brings a wealth of knowledge in leadership, productivity, and motivation.
Understanding Team Dynamics
David and Edward emphasize the importance of clear standards and processes within teams. They argue that most teams already have standards, but these are often unarticulated and inconsistent. By defining communication channels, meeting protocols, and team behaviors, teams can achieve greater clarity and cohesion. This clarity helps eliminate confusion and enhances overall productivity.
Addressing Modern Challenges
In today’s global work environment, many teams operate across different time zones and rely on digital tools for collaboration. David and Edward acknowledge the complexity of managing such dispersed teams. They suggest that teams need to establish appropriate standards and protocols, much like rules in a game, to ensure smooth and effective collaboration. This approach minimizes stress and maximizes efficiency.
The Role of Tools and Software
While the authors don’t endorse specific tools, they highlight the need for teams to thoughtfully select and use digital tools. Whether it’s Asana, Monday.com, or a simple spreadsheet, the key is to use these tools to reduce friction and noise within the team. Importantly, each team member should have their own system for managing tasks, while the team collectively tracks progress using agreed-upon methods.
Healthy High Performance
A significant theme in the book is achieving “healthy high performance.” David and Edward challenge the notion that high performance must come at the expense of well-being. They advocate for a balanced approach where team members can perform at their best without sacrificing their health. This balance is achieved by aligning personal values with team goals and fostering an environment that supports both productivity and well-being.
Final Thoughts
David Allen and Edward Lamont’s new book offers invaluable insights for teams striving to enhance productivity and reduce stress. By implementing clear standards, leveraging the right tools, and prioritizing healthy high performance, teams can achieve remarkable results. Whether you’re managing a local team or a global one, these principles can transform how your team works together.
For more detailed insights and practical advice, don’t miss Team: Getting Things Done with Others. You may also visit David’s website at gettingthingsdone.com and Ed’s company website at next-action.co.uk.
You may also refer to the transcripts below for the full transciption (not edited) of the interview.
Interview Transcipt -Not EditedEmailDownloadNew TabGreg Voisen
Well, welcome back to Inside Personal Growth. This is Greg Voisen, host of Inside Personal Growth. And joining us from the Netherlands, you can see is David Allen, many of you already know, David, and he's up there. And in the lower left-hand corner, depending on how this all starts, is Ed Lamont joining us from London, England. Good day to both of you. It's the middle afternoon for you. And good morning to me. How are you guys both doing?
David Allen
Oh, good. Thanks. Great to be here.
Edward Lamont
Great to be here. Yes, good.
Greg Voisen
And we're here to talk about a brand new book that the two of them just wrote, called Team: Getting Things Done with Others. And the subtitle, well, that is the subtitle. But it's the New York Times bestselling author of Getting Things Done of David Allen. And many of you know him. And I'm gonna quote because I was reading all of these quotes from somebody that I really respect a lot. And that's Guy Kawasaki, who was just on the podcast with me. And he said that the two of you tapped into the vast experience to reveal the core principles that make teams not just individuals getting things done. They show you how to cut through the noise, align your group efforts and foster remarkably high performing teams. That he says that with your guidance, you'll transform your team into a focus force poised to achieve its objectives. And I think this is the big one, with less stress, and more success. That was a great quote you guys. And that's the key is drying removes stress from these teams. So a little bit about the two of them. David Allen is an international bestselling author widely recognized as his work leading expert on personal organizational productivity. Time magazine called his flagship book, getting things done the definite business self-help book of the decade. Edie is the co-founder and senior partner of next action associates. It's a GTD partner for the UK and Ireland. He has over 25 years of experience in executive coaching and training, consultant errs leadership, productivity, and motivation. And since 2009, he's founded and grown the most successful G T D franchise worldwide by using the principles in the book, before moving into consulting, he worked. Covering commodities markets as a freelancer for Financial Times a little bit about both of you. Well, my listeners are anxious for us to get into the meat and potatoes as people say, of this book, and how this book can help them. That's the key with inside personal growth. Everybody here is a seeker. I know my audience is well, I've been doing this 17 years, and 11 124 podcasts. And I think I know a little bit about the kind of people that listen to the show. They want to do things more effectively. They want to do things with less stress, and they want to do things. So we're talking about things getting things done, and be happier doing them and having more meaning in their life doing them. So in the book, you guys emphasize the importance of clear standards and processes for teamwork. And I think that that's good it is. But can you elaborate on how these principles can transform a team's productivity and cohesion?
Edward Lamont
Are they I think it's pretty. It's a pretty simple thing, actually. Because all teams have standards. They simply, most of them have not articulated those standards for themselves. How are we going to do this with each other in a reasonably granular way? You know, what communications channels are we using? How are we doing our meetings? What what's okay, what's not okay in the way that we work with each other? Everybody has those. But if they're not articulated, then they're generally going to be just some fudged up mix of what people bought from their last team for what they learned at home or what they learned in college. And so you don't have the clarity and the crispness around communications around accountability around handoffs, that make for a team that is functioning well and enjoying itself. Well,
Greg Voisen
you know, David, I just had Corey Cogan on here from Franklin Covey. Speaking about everybody's a project manager today, right. We've all got a series of tasks to do and projects and timelines and deadlines and whether you're a gig worker, you're working with people across the country, time zones, elaborate a little bit if You would, because that becomes part of the challenge that many of my listeners are faced with today. You know, they may have a team in Slovenia, they may have a team in Ukrainian Ukraine, they may have a team anywhere on the globe and time zones and zoom and getting people together and organizing it. Any comments you have that you might help them feel a little less stressed over that?
David Allen
I'd say, you know, pray meditate, relax? No, it's a great question. And it is, the world has changed in that the channels have increased, the volume has increased and the speed has increased, that everybody needs to deal with. But whether you're dealing with somebody in Colombia, or in Slovenia, or in China, you still need to Ed's point, you still need to make sure make sure you have appropriate standards. It's like trying to play soccer or football, you need boundaries, you need to where's the goal? And where are the boundaries over here, one of the rules of the game. So we're not talking about breeding, you know, super constraining kind of rules, we're talking about what are the freeing kind of kind of parameters, if you will, that we need to build in so that we are more free to focus on the bigger stuff that team needs to get done? See, you know, we make the point, as you may read in the book, that we're not trying to address the big stuff. Here's the big thing, we our team has come together to make sure that happens. We want to make sure that the mechanics of how the team works together, are functioning well. So they don't undermine that energy and undermine that motivation. Because what will undermine the motivation is, if you're allowing people to bring three digital devices to a meeting that aren't have nothing to do with the meeting. That's, that's not exactly high performance. If you have people show up at a meeting, and they don't know exactly why they're in the meeting, what the purpose of the meeting is, and they end the meeting without going so what's the next step, but who's responsible for that? That's, these are not hard things to change. You don't have to transform the people, you don't have to transform the organization, you just need to upgrade the mechanics of the game. And that's a lot of what we tried to address are what are the what are all the optimal mechanics of how you work together with people appropriately? And oftentimes, you don't need to make that that much conscious. You know, you get in the taxi, you know, yeah, the your team with your taxi driver, right? And ideally, here's where we're going and drive safely. Don't go too fast. And whatever it is, so you have a purpose, and you have principles, and you have a you know, all that's going on, do you have any life partner, you and anybody out there, we made that point that team, it's not just, you know, corporate business project team, although it includes that for sure. It's anybody you're trying to get anything done with that you want to get done? Well,
Greg Voisen
I know even in producing this podcast ad, I work with a team and Philippines, and I work with the team in Pakistan. And I know everybody out there listening today has their own digital way. You know, you're using Asana, you're using monday.com, you're using something to remind you of the tasks that have to be completed on an initiative or a project. And there's so many of these tools, even you guys GTD has their own methodology, I wouldn't, I am not certain still about the software, because the whole world has been inundated with so many pieces of software, would you guys like to comment on? So the question is this, Hey, I have to work in different time zones. And I have to use a piece of software. And I'm not asking you to endorse any one piece of software. But if you're going to use one of these, how do you take your methodology and embedded in there to make sure that it runs correctly, and that people are getting things done more effectively and efficiently?
Edward Lamont
So I mean, it's not there's certainly not any endorsement in the book for for particular, right software. We've got clients who are running extremely well on on spreadsheets, frankly, and other ones who are choosing Asana or teams or wherever. A lot of it is that that question is very often settled for the people on the team by what the organization provides, and then you have to work it out. And unfortunately, most people have simply kind of defaulted to a kind of a wild west approach where they just get stuck in it Without enough thought about how they're going to use the piece of software, what what it actually offers to them in terms of what they might need as a team, and then how they're going to use that in a way that reduces the, again, the friction and noise on the team. So what we did was we, we went in a principled approach, if you have a piece of software, and it gives you this, then that equates to what we're talking about here as an inbox. Or this is a place where you can organize things, or this is a communications channel, here's how you might want to think about organizing all that. So it works for you. The, what we don't do is suggest that the entire team use the same system, you could do that. But again, you increase friction, if you move people away from their own system, what you want is them to have their own system. And then you want the team to have some way to track what the team is doing. You don't need to have both of those things in the same piece of software, because very likely, you have a learning curve on which you will lose half of the team. Because they're not comfortable with the team software. So there's there's kind of stuff that you can allow them to do whatever they like. And then there's stuff that is kind of mandated in order for the team to function. And that probably needs to be in either your team software, or just a spreadsheet with a link that everybody can access easily to see what the team is up to.
Greg Voisen
Yeah, there are so many tools today. And I think people do get confused over the plethora of tools that, you know, I know we use a sauna, but not only that, everybody but he's got a G drive right? Or they have OneNote or they've got whatever where they're saving documents. How does the GTD methodology adapt when applied team settings as opposed to individual productivity? I know I go back to the day when David was in Ojai, and there were a lot of us sitting in a room there. And it was individual productivity, like in the 80s. We were doing this through a little workbook that he gave us it's come a long way since then. And so what are the key differences and benefits? Because that's what this book is about? Anybody wants to take field that one?
David Allen
Well, I guess, it wasn't so much a surprise, because I knew that the principles of getting things don't apply to a group as well as to an individual. They don't change. If I walked into you and your team, Philippines, Slovenia, kind of wherever you folks are, I say, Well, what has the team's attention right now? What's not our cruise control? That's a capture process. So just like if I were to sit down with you personally, say what's on your mind? What do you have all I need new tires on my car, I need to hire vice president I need to research this piece of software, I need to see if my daughter should take karate lessons. You know. So it's the same thing in terms of somebody personally trying to get stuff off their mind, the team needs to get stuff off its mind, because on your own on its mind is inversely proportional to the to getting done. So whatever has your team's mind, it's not wrong, it's not a judgment, it's just the truth. If it's on your mind, that means there's decisions about it you haven't made yet, or you haven't organized the results appropriately in some appropriate place. So those of us those are universal principles, essentially, for people personally. And we just had found a way to objectify that and codify that as a way for a team to acknowledge that. So you can use Asana, but believe me, I've worked with several companies that just couldn't get this to work, because they had to decide on the protocols. At what level of detail did people need to input on this? who's accessing it? And if you have somebody who's not accessing what they should be accessing the thing sucks, doesn't work. Right. So you have to have serious rigor about how do we use the tool in that way. And that's, that's not impossible, but tough to come by. I
Greg Voisen
think it's implied. I think frequently, so pardon me for interjecting here. But if a champion takes on something and somebody makes a decision to use a piece of software, I don't think they're asking for the input too much. Often for the other people, it's implied, then that you're going to figure out how to use it and make sure that it works. Would you say that you find this happening frequently because I know even me in my own little operation. I have this implied consent that if I chose Asana, you guys are gonna figure out how to use it. Right. Any comment on that? Because it's, it really is a challenge when the person on the Rand is going, No, I'm a little resistant using this, this isn't the tool that I really, you know what to do, but you're not going to please all the people all the time right?
Edward Lamont
Now, but this is where so to your point earlier, right, you've got all these different pieces of software, many of them now come with a communication, chat function or something like that. And, again, to kind of distinguish how this book is different from what David did earlier. At an individual level, you know, we can teach people how to handle their inboxes, right, and clean them out, make decisions, put the results of their decisions in a place that they trust, all that stuff. That's, that's all individual productivity workflow type stuff. What you can't do at that level is decide that the team is only going to use four or five channels instead of 45 channels. Right? So they've got access to 45 channels. And some of the work that I did in in the research for this book, was to go talk to teams about how many channels do you have available, one team had 23, and various pieces of software, some were being used by some members of the team, others were being used by other members of the team. And they found huge benefit in simply deciding, here's the four we're using, here's what we're using them for. And here's the response times for them. Right, that's a decision that you can only make at a team level, you can't do that as an individual, no matter how good you get as an individual, that doesn't change that you still got 45 places to look to find out what your work is. So it's not it's that kind of thing. That that this book addresses.
Greg Voisen
Yes. And it does a really good job of that. And you know, one of the things that I do want to get to is healthy, high performance. And I don't know if this is for David, or you. But you mentioned it to me when we had our pre interview. And I want you to talk about the concept of healthy high performance. Because I frequently think that the amount of stress the additional digital world has put on people is not helping healthy high performance. It's decreasing healthy, high performance. Can you explain what this means for teams? And how can we achieve without sacrificing well being because like, when I interview people on the show, yesterday, I had a guy by the name of sage radar doing somatic breathing with me, right, and I get from everything from the far end of meditation, I have a doctor coming on next speaking about how to heal your own cancer. So the reality is, you know, I get a full spectrum of this. And I really am interested in healthy, high performance. Because it seems like a conundrum when you take high performance and LV and put it together.
Edward Lamont
Yeah, and that's something that we acknowledge in the book is that, you know, most people I, because of what we've done, over the course of let's say, the last 50 or 70 years, we're holding those things as kind of opposite ends of the spectrum, I can have high performance or I can be healthy. And And when we're saying well, actually, no, that is that is simply a creative tension. You, you can just go for high performance and sacrifice your health. And you know, people are, are trading health, for wealth throughout their careers. This is a choice that people make, I'm going to trade my health for wealth, and then I'm going to use my wealth to try and get my health back. We're simply saying that's, that doesn't make sense to us. And you can have high performance in a sustainable way. If you're willing to think about performance slightly differently, and you're willing to start to look at, at what is meaningful for people, right? Because we're defaulting to measuring and focusing on the performance that we can measure. And we've got lots of important things that are difficult to measure. So they're not being given much of a look at.
Greg Voisen
Right save you. Can you comment on this, either you or David, you bring up something that right now is just like, at the forefront of my mind. Jordan Peterson said to me, you make a contract with the future. Everybody's made a contract with the future, but you're making a sacrifice in the present. So whatever the sacrifices are that we're making today for this contract in the future, whether it's that 401 K plan, or that money that we're chasing, or whatever it might be, we are making these sacrifices, and I would agree with that philosophy. And I think anybody on a team would agree with that philosophy. anybody's still in the everyday workaday world is going to agree with that. And that relates right back to healthy pie performance. As far as I'm concerned, where do you find the balance? And how would you address that? You
David Allen
find the balance based upon the people and the team. What needs to happen? What's my agreement? What do you need? Believe me, I had a long many year friend and client, who ran one of the top foreign policy advisory institutes in the world, frankly. And this guy travelled faster, more around the world than anybody I've ever met, and was engaged with, he was engaged with a lot of people that were behind the 1989 sort of undoing of the Soviet Union. And a lot of those people, if you work for John, you got tied to his hip for two years, you, you, you did not have any other life, than hanging out with him. And going, where he was going, and being his right hand, and doing whatever needed to get done. And he didn't have any problem getting people to do that. Because they knew after those two years, they could write their own ticket in terms of their experience, and credibility, based upon what they could do and what they had done. It was just an agreement. So you could say that was imbalance, or was it was an imbalance or that was exactly the what the balance was. And that's what the agreement was. So I think a lot of it is comes down to and, you know, again, this is one of the sort of new issues these days, the new generation, whatever, Gen X, Gen Z, Gen X, X X, or whatever Gen Xers are, you know, they really care that they have a conscious and then fulfilling lifestyle is full of purpose, right? And they're not willing to, they're not willing to open their veins and give it all to whatever. Unless somebody says, that's what you do here. And because of that, you get x, y, z. So I think there's just a lack of clarity of agreement with people about how they're playing and to what degree they're playing what's necessary for that play. So that's, it's kind of a non answer or non response to what you said. But that's, that's, that's the truth. Really. It's like,
Greg Voisen
you are absolutely correct, David, we have all these different generations working in the workplace today. And I'm sure that your this team book is attempting to address all generations that are in the workforce today. And they do have different viewpoints and perspectives about work and getting things done. And so add that throw that out to you, I guess, you know, wasn't one of my questions on here. But I think that's what's good about a free flow forum like this is how is teams helping multigenerational work in the workforce and achieve getting things done?
Edward Lamont
So it's, it's a great question, and it's one that showed up for us in our, our London book launch. It was one of the I think one of the more powerful questions because we had someone in the audience who was, let's say, you know, more aging Boomer than than Gen Z, trying to manage a multi generational workforce. He was running a theater, and he was finding that, you know, as David says, They younger generations were coming in, they simply were not interested in working in the way that that he thought was right and correct, given what he'd learned and what he'd done all his career. And in fairness to him, he wasn't angry. He wasn't, it wasn't a blame game. He was just like, I'm really confused about this. I think and we believe we're not addressing it directly in the book. But it's implicit in the book that if you're willing to have conversations on the team, about how we're going to do this thing, and make those standards again, which will be different through the generation, but at least make them explicit, so people can choose to be in or be out. And the thing that that I said to him was the kids who are coming through, they're looking at what we've done. They're not impressed. They're not impressed, you know, on a physical level, they're looking what people have done to themselves and they're going we're not we're not impressed. They're looking at what we've done to the environment. And they're really really not
Greg Voisen
impressed. Like in fact course. ng they should be, as they shouldn't be. Yeah.
Edward Lamont
And, and so, you know, my response was like we need to come to this conversation with a certain amount of humility, because it's just highperformance has not produced sustainable results that we can repeat in the future. Right, that now there's there are people who will discuss that. But I think it's pretty clear what's going on. And we need to find a new way to work together.
David Allen
Well, so let me ask you, the flip side of that coin. If you're 2821 through 24, sometimes it's all adrenaline rush, you get bored going home, right? You're just into the game, like, zoo, let's go. And you know, like, so who cares that that's, that's the game you chose. That's the game. That's what's required of the game. But as soon as you then have a kid, or want to play golf instead, or in addition, or want to do something else, oh, well, that then changes the game. So we've seen just in terms of people's personal productivity, kind of hard to convince anybody between the age of 18 and 24, that they actually need any of that, because they just want to zoom. Right?
Greg Voisen
That is true. I, I would concur with that. I remember being 18 to 24. Actually, I had I had one child by the time was 25. I think so things do
David Allen
change that changed your game?
Greg Voisen
Yes, it did. I have a son who's 14, he's having his first baby in December. So I know it's going to change the game. But a way to turn 40. So here's the deal. You know, I've had so many people on here with leadership books lately. And all this kind of starts with a leader, whether it's a leader of a team, or a leader of a business or something. And I've also had many discussions about the dysfunctional illness of leaders. And we're not going to get into the whole concept of international politics here. And issues. I will say, you know, in the United States, here, we're we're dealing with our own issues, as it might be Dallas, how important it is the leader to lead with compassion, understanding and inclusion, to make getting things done work in the workforce, no matter which leader it is a mid level manager, a top leader, what where do you guys kind of fit on that spectrum, because I think today, a leader has to listen, has to be empathetic, has to be compassionate, has to want to collaborate, has to want to understand. And I think all of these key principles add to the effectiveness of GTD.
David Allen
They're not one of the same. What JD is about and what our book is about is the mechanics, that all those things you just mentioned, those are hard to build, those are harder to sustain, those are hard to find people who have all those qualities. And those are great qualities. So we don't want to disparage those qualities, they're fabulous. But if you have meetings that are late starting people with showing up with three digital devices, and not focusing on what the focus of the meeting is, I don't care how compassionate a leader you are, your your system doesn't work. You've got you've got broken mechanics, and the broken mechanics then start to start to drain the energy of motivation and train and train the ability for those great qualities you just mentioned, which are great qualities for sure. But you don't have a way to make sure that those are going to be sustainable. If if the process of the team is dysfunction. We tried to address that.
Greg Voisen
I think it helps the environment, it helps the environment in which the individuals are working to have leaders with those qualities. In other words, I feel more more you are talking about the younger generation. I feel more included, I feel more at ease. I feel like my voice is being heard, especially at the is we were just saying those 18 to 27 year olds or whatever, it doesn't really matter. I'm not even going to try and divide. What I'm going to say is that should happen across all generations to get people inspired and focused.
Edward Lamont
All right. We are not we're not disputing that at all right in our approach to what we decided to do with the leadership because there is so much out there on leadership was to focus on a very, very particular aspect. And that is let's make sure your team works because then you will need a lot less need to resolve conflicts you will need a lot less ability to listen to people who are unhappy if the thing you've paid enough attention to the mechanics that the thing is actually working. And that is a, an almost a full time job to make decisions about how the team works, how its structured, what are our processes, and make sure that people are self policing, because you don't want to be the policemen for all that.
Greg Voisen
You just let's talk about let's talk about delegation. Delegation is a critical aspect to any teamwork. And this is one of the questions that I had come up with that I'm actually on track with right now. What are some common pitfalls in delegation? And how can teams improve their delegation practices to enhance productivity and accountability? Because now we're getting down to the granular part of okay, accountability, delegation and productivity. You're on Ed?
Edward Lamont
Well, I'll be David for a minute. Because David, at this point, will generally say, hey, let's define the rules. So if you have not clearly enough define the rules, then you're going to have a bunch of stuff bouncing around on a team that actually has a home. So if you simply get clear enough about where something belongs, you will start to make better delegations, it'll end up where it's supposed to be faster. Okay. I think the number one thing that's that's going wrong with delegation is, it's probably not happening enough or not fast enough. So people are getting stuff, they're not quite sure what to do with it, they're not sure where it goes, it sits in their inbox for a while. And then, you know, at three minutes to 12, on the day before, the thing is, do they fire it off to somebody in three liner, and hope that they're going to get what they want? So that's the second thing that's going wrong, is that delegations are not handled with enough clarity about what is desired? And what are the resources that are available in order to get that thing done. The other thing, I mean, I can go on, because it's a huge topic, right? The, you know,
Greg Voisen
the thing about you, we talk about scope, creep and business, but what about role creep? And now, I'm going to say what,
David Allen
there is no role creep. There isn't. There's the role. Yeah. And then there's that role. And the role has a purpose, and it has accountabilities. Okay, so So role creep is simply because of the lack of clarity of role. So wow, if you and I are both responsible, nothing's going to happen. Right. Right. So that's what you mean by role creep? Absolutely. What you mean is lack of role clarity?
Greg Voisen
I would say absolutely. Right, David, but it happens a lot, David, of course.
David Allen
If it didn't, we have to find out the job. write another book? I don't know.
Edward Lamont
Yeah, well, there was a lovely, there was a lovely concept that came up during the research for the book. And it was self exploitation. Now live isn't David is an actual hippie he was around and alive and conscious in 1968. I am a kind of, I'm a kind of a wannabe hippie. But I am, I get I get a little bit bent out of shape. When I see that. We've been we've employed people are very often on teams that. So David is not of this opinion. But I'd like I'm really, I think that this does happen. And I don't want to speak for you here, David. That people, they get a job, and they don't know how to defend themselves inside of the system that they're in. And that's where you get role creep, and scope creep. And all of it is that they're simply saying yes to things because they think they have to. And they are allowing themselves to be exploited in service of the team. That's another place where it's only at a team level that those people can get any kind of defense for themselves. If there is some conversation about how are we doing this? Do you have to say yes to everything? Because if you have to say yes to everything, then you're yes means nothing. There's an entire chapter on this in the book, you get to deliver everything. So you have to be able to say no. And some people simply don't have the muscle and they don't feel like they have permission to say no, or to negotiate.
Greg Voisen
So do you either review if I took this book, and I say I'd never known anything about GTD before. I didn't follow David, but it's brand new. I'm just gonna pick this up off the shelf. Does this book stand alone without me ever having done anything with GTD or do I have to have been somebody who's followed the GTD prior to this?
David Allen
Well, maybe let me address that gee. di d is nothing but common sense. Okay? And that people labeled it then created a brand around it, they created a whole cult around it. But it's nothing more than why would you start a meeting without going? What's the purpose of the meeting? Why would you end the meeting without saying, Well, what did we decided? What's the next step? And who's doing it? Why would you? Why would you make an agreement with somebody or have somebody make an agreement with you didn't want to keep track of, so you could follow up on it. So, so doing GTD just means doing good business? Yeah,
Greg Voisen
I agree. I agree with you, David. But I know the brand has been around for a long time, and you help to propel it. So what are what are your top recommendations for making team meetings more effective and impactful, then? Because we know that a structured approach to these team meetings is important? What would the two of you or what have you say, to making team beams more effective and more impactful? Because, look, I I've seen the statistics on meetings alone. And it's, it's heinous, how much time is spent, and wasted in meetings. Okay. So the question is, how do I make these more effective? And how do I get more engagement and productivity? Well,
David Allen
we actually worked with a client, very, very sophisticated financial services company in the northeast of the US. And after we worked with them, they made a policy from the top down, if you get invited to a meeting, that the purpose is not clear, and the role that you were supposed to play in that meeting is not clear. You don't have to go. That just that could change your culture.
Greg Voisen
Like, yeah, so no one shows up for the meeting.
David Allen
Then why the hell did you even set the meeting to begin with?
Greg Voisen
Right? Well, the person who said it thought it was important, because of
David Allen
what because of their role that they needed other people to play. And so there's some lack of communication, something fell through the cracks.
Greg Voisen
I love what that financial services firm did. I think that's, that's beautiful. So how can teams ensure that they're not only performing well in the short term, but also building some sustainable practices that will support long term successes, let's face it, the the focus of the book is if I take the processes that you've outlined in the book, and I was gonna look at the chapter I just had up on control, focus and planning and how you've actually really articulated meaning control and focus the five steps for a team. How do I now correlate what I learned in here and apply it then. And this is for long term success and resilience. That's for you. And
Edward Lamont
I mean, I would say Read, read the book, I mean, that and apply the parts that appeal to you. So they're going to be parts of the book that you read, and you're going to go, Well, we're doing that already. I don't need that. And there'll be parts where you go, Oh, my God, that is like a sinkhole for time and energy. And we need to we need to do something about that. So it's not really an answer to your question, except that everything, everything in the book points at how can you make this more sustainable, and fun, and perform at a high level? Everything is pointed at that.
Greg Voisen
And where do you want people to go? Well get to resources, if you had it would they go to? Because I'm gonna put a link in the blog? Do I want to send them to getting things done? I looked for a book landing site. So tell me where you want our listeners to go. They want to look for well, local bookstore, but if they wanted to get some resources, like maybe a downloadable PDF or anything you guys might have to help them cut through the chase. Just go to get the book. Well, because a lot of them are looking to short circuit Yes,
David Allen
we just say just snack on the book. Okay, Commando snack
Greg Voisen
on it. That's what I want. Yours. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait,
David Allen
do you have a manual for Microsoft Word or for Excel? You could do you know how many things you could be doing in Word or Excel you're not even doing don't even know about? That's okay. Yeah, man was there. So what we did was great, the manual, so you could snack on it and use kind of whatever works for you. And back to back to your question about sustainability. And back to the So the whole concept of health, is the team healthy if it can replicate itself. If you just send five people leave your team and you got the five new people globally from some virtual way, they just came onto your team. Can you replicate what you were doing that work? And that's a lot of what we tended to address or wanting to address in the book. What are the models that makes the team sustainable? Is it sustainable? Can you keep doing what you're doing, no matter how much the team changes, or how much the world changes that the team has to engage with. And that's a lot of understanding the mechanics of how a team works optimally, if you understand those mechanics, doesn't matter who comes who doesn't go, you know, comes and goes, the world changes, got surprised you got a pandemic never only has to work from home, whatever, if you understand the mechanics of this, you'll just figure that out and make it work. If you have no idea what the mechanics are, and you're just fumbling around, just, you know, fumbling, and just dealing with latest and loudest Good luck.
Edward Lamont
And to pick up David's point there, you need to make the decisions about about these things. And then they need to be documented in a way that, you know, for someone like your son who's trying to get teams going, right, he can reduce the setup time, because instead of having people join the team, and either having to explain everything to them, or more likely simply allowing them to work out what the standards are, what the accepted practices are on the team. They're simply given a document, which is this is how we do it. And then thereafter, you know, they can they can choose not to join, but they can't declare they didn't know what they were signing up for. Right, that was one of the things that's really moving very quickly on teams, is the flow of people in and out of a team, you're gonna waste unspeakable amounts of time if you don't document your standards and processes so they can get quickly up to speed.
Greg Voisen
Well, Edie, you did a lot of research for this book. And I think one of the things, the reason I like guys quote is because you're cutting through the note noise. And I think that the issue here, frequently in teams, is the amount of noise that gets created. I actually used to teach a course called Nevermind the noise thriving in a world of ever increasing complexity. And God only knows that hasn't changed that goes back 25 years ago, or whatever it was, is matter of fact, that noise is even louder. So reflecting on both of your extensive experiences in the GTD and teamwork area, what are some of the most surprising insights or lessons you've learned about what makes teams truly successful? So if you were to give me a list, each of you and just said, it's this, it's this, it's this, it's this that make team successful? Or if you want to comment, but I would love to kind of end our interview on what the two of you believe, make teams successful.
David Allen
Pretty much everything, everything that's in the book. Okay,
Greg Voisen
so that can be that can be an answer.
David Allen
That's, it comes down to understanding, clarifying keeping current and keeping alive the purpose of the team. Why are we here? What's on course, what will be off course? And what has the team's attention about any of that? And then how do we resolve that? How do we how do we reduce that friction? So we need to capture what has the attention, we need to clarify what it means we need to organize the results in some appropriate place. So people are not bothered by where do I find the right information? We need to make sure that there's a good reflection to review process so we can stay current with the new world that is happening every week, these days, in terms of technology, in terms of changing the world, etc. So these best practices, any one of those, if they fall out, will prevent the team from being at its high performance level.
Greg Voisen
And any last comment from you? Or do you like what he said?
Edward Lamont
I love everything David says. I mean, for me, I if I was pointing people at something I would I would say you know, to reflect on both the health of the individuals on the team and the health of the team as a lever for achieving sustainable performance and to have those conversations, not not to simply do Fall to well, we can measure measure the money. So let's measure money, but to have conversations about the things that are super important for every individual on the team, but very difficult to measure, like the health of their relationships, the health of the, you know, their their social health, you know, are they getting to see anybody by the time they leave the office? Is there any scope for them to do anything other than go to sleep, and try and repeat it in the morning. So I think having those conversations is, is critical, if you're interested in really sustainable performance.
Greg Voisen
Well, I tell my listeners, if they're looking to beat a section about healthy high performance, which is what you were just talking about, do go out and get a copy of the book. Definitely, it said, all your major sellers will put a link to Amazon and everybody who sells the book, we'll also put a link up there to the Getting Things Done website for all the listeners who are out there today. I want to just acknowledge both of you and you in particular for the research and you put into the book, not the David didn't put in years and years and years of his background and expertise to this book, or you wouldn't be sitting here as partners having done it. But you did a really, really excellent job of giving people a framework in which to work in teams and to be more effective, and to be healthy. And I think that's the big key to this is, I think in today's world, a grog cross generations, we're all looking for that balance and you've provided a tool to help give us some balance in there. So I think that's important. And I want to acknowledge both of you for that. David, thanks for being on Inside Personal Growth again, even though it's been way too long. And Ed, thank you for being on Inside Personal Growth. You guys have a wonderful rest of your evening. Blessings to you. Thanks for being on the show. Thanks for taking this time.
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Inside Personal Growth with Greg Voisen · Podcast 1130: Ask with Jeff WetzlerIn today’s episode, Jeff Wetzler, co-CEO of Transcend and author of Ask: Tap Into the Hidden Wisdom of People Around You for Unexpected Breakthroughs In Leadership and Life shares invaluable insights into leadership and curiosity. Jeff delves into his motivation for writing his book and the importance of addressing unspoken challenges in leadership.
The Unspoken Problem
Jeff highlights a pervasive issue he terms “the unspoken” — critical ideas, insights, and perspectives that remain untapped within teams and organizations. Drawing from his own experience, he recounts a significant event where a major training event was on the brink of failure due to team members withholding critical information out of fear. This scenario underscores the importance of creating a psychologically safe environment where team members feel comfortable sharing their honest perspectives.
Creating Psychological Safety
Jeff also emphasizes that psychological safety is essential for effective leadership. Leaders must actively foster an environment where open communication is encouraged, and team members feel safe to express their concerns without fear of retribution. This involves building genuine connections with team members, understanding their fears, and demonstrating empathy. By doing so, leaders can bridge the gap between hierarchical positions and cultivate a culture of trust and transparency.
Curiosity as a Leadership Tool
Curiosity plays a pivotal role in unlocking human potential and fostering innovation. Jeff introduces the concept of “connective curiosity,” a form of curiosity focused on understanding and learning from others. This type of curiosity is not merely about acquiring knowledge but about caring for and connecting with others on a deeper level. By centering on the question, “What can I learn from this person?” leaders can shift their mindset from one of authority to one of genuine interest and engagement.
Practical Steps for Leaders
To embed curiosity and psychological safety within an organization, leaders should:
1. Build Genuine Connections: Invest time in developing relationships with team members beyond immediate work needs. Understanding their personal and professional backgrounds creates a foundation of trust.
2. Foster Open Dialogue: Encourage team members to share their thoughts and concerns by asking open-ended questions and actively listening to their responses.
3. Model Vulnerability: Leaders should share their own dilemmas and challenges, demonstrating that it’s safe to discuss difficulties and uncertainties.
4. Prioritize Empathy: Show genuine care and concern for team members’ well-being, validating their experiences and perspectives.
Jeff’s insights remind us that effective leadership is not just about making decisions but about creating environments where people feel valued, heard, and empowered to contribute their best ideas. By fostering curiosity and psychological safety, leaders can unlock the full potential of their teams, leading to unexpected breakthroughs in both leadership and life.
For more on Jeff Wetzler’s approach and to explore his book, visit Ask Approach.
You may also refer to the transcripts below for the full transciption (not edited) of the interview.
Interview Transcipt -Not EditedEmailDownloadNew TabGreg Voisen
Well, welcome back to Inside Personal Growth! For another amazing episode of Inside Personal Growth, with Jeff Wetzler and Jeff is joining us from Upstate New York. Is that right, Jeff?
Jeff Wetzler
Hudson Valley, New York. Yes.
Greg Voisen
Hudson Valley. Well, Hudson Valley. I've been watching his show about remodels, I told him, and if you guys get a chance to watch that show, I don't know the name, but just look it up on HGTV these two girls do remodel Hudson Valley is the most beautiful spot that I'd seen in a long time. This is the book though, we're going to ask about Hudson Valley. The book is called Ask, tap into the hidden wisdom of the people around you for unexpected breakthroughs in leadership and life. Well, you've been doing this for a long time, Jeff, and you understand this exceptionally well better than anybody. And I want to let my listeners know that the actual website that you want to go to. To learn more about this is Ask approach.com Ask approach.com. There you can order the book. But we're also going to have a link to Amazon which seems to be the preferred place where most people go to get books these days. And is this also an audit audible book too?
Jeff Wetzler
It is also an audible book and Kindle as well.
Greg Voisen
Okay, so it's an audible book, but I'm gonna let the listeners know a tad bit about you, Jeff. Jeff Wetzler has been in a quarter century quest to transform learning opportunities and unblock human potential, blending a unique set of leadership experiences in the field of business and education. He's pursued this quest as an international management consultant to executives in Fortune 500 corporations, as a chief learning officer at Tech for America and currently, as the CO CEO of transcend a nationally recognized innovation organization, Jeff earned a doctorate in Adult Learning and Leadership from Columbia University and a bachelor's in psychology from Brown University. He is an aspen Global Leadership Fellow, and an Edmund Hillary fellow. And he lives in New York with his wife and two children. And don't forget the most important thing, puppies. So again, go to askapproach.com. It's the little things in life like the puppy, Jeff, that make a difference. Here's the book, folks. And believe me, the puppies do make a difference.
Jeff Wetzler
The copy was my reading companion the entire time when I wrote the book, you know, late nights on the couch early mornings weekend. That's who was sitting side by side with me.
Greg Voisen
Yeah. And you were probably asking the dog questions, and you are getting answers. So, what inspired you to write, ask and how did your own experiences shaped kind of the concepts in the book, Jeff? Yeah.
Jeff Wetzler
So, I would say What inspired me was two things. One is, the problem that the book is dealing with, is a problem that I think is pervasive. And it's a problem that I have faced many times in my own life as a leader, and as a just as a person. And also, I've been very fortunate in my life and career to have a set of mentors and teachers who have shared with me various tools, and ideas for overcoming this problem. And those tools and ideas have been so powerful in my own leadership, and have been the very first thing I go to when I develop the people around me that at a certain point a few years ago, I said, I think it's time to pay it forward. I want to I want to pass this on to more people, so they can benefit from the gifts that I've been given to.
Greg Voisen
Well, you really have and I think the when you say the unexpected breakthroughs and leadership in life, asking questions is an art and a science. And it's also this, as I mentioned to you before we actually came on the air, it's this kind of feeling what your heart feels right as a podcaster. Every day, I kind of have to look through the screen of zoom, and try and feel what the person on the other end is now, in the distance like this. It's not as easy as you and I were sitting in a studio. That's when I could and I could see Jeff, but in your book, you talk about the phenomenon of the unspoken. Yeah. Can you share an example from your career where something unspoken had significant consequences? Because this is one that you know, you try to get from people even on a podcast, what's the unspoken?
Jeff Wetzler
Yeah, and you know, when I was saying my two reasons for writing the book, the first one was the problem that's pervasive and that problem is the unspoken. The problem is that the people around us in our lives, that could be our coworkers or bosses people we manage friends club As investors, or heads, our was our partner, our spouse, our partners, anyone, they have ideas and insights and perspectives and observations that are so valuable. But the problem is that too often we don't find out what they are, or we don't find out some of the most important things that they are thinking and feeling. If we could find them out, we would make better decisions, we would save time, we would avoid mistakes, we innovate better, we'd have closer relationships, but we just don't find it out. And so to your question, in my own an example of my own life and career, when I was early in as a, an operating leader, was managing a few 100 people, we were overseeing major events, major training events, and these were very high cost, high stakes, high visibility, hundreds of people being trained, that would affect you know, 1000s and 1000s, more, and one of them was about to implode, right before it was gonna launch. And we spent a year, you know, preparing each one of these things, and one of them was literally just not not going to work out in a pretty spectacularly, you know, public visible way. And I discovered that, you know, just just as a very last second, almost too late, thankfully, you know, a leader on my team stepped up and did a heroic job to get it back on track. But all throughout the year, I was checking in with a team, I was saying to the team, how's it going? Everything, you know, everything on track what's going on, you know, what can I help with? And all I would get back was, you know, yeah, a few few little bumps, but we got it, you know, and I'm thinking, okay, all right, they got it, you know, and what was really going on is the whole thing was falling apart. They knew it. But they didn't want to tell me. And some of it was I wasn't asking the right questions, like a question, for example, like everything on track is not a good question to be asking your team if you really want to find out what's going on. And some of it was that they didn't feel safe to tell me the answers. I you know, even though I genuinely in my heart, I was curious. And I wanted to know, they were worried that if they told me how bad things were, they would look bad, I would be upset, I might fire them, I might punish them. And really, at the end of the day, it was on me as a leader, because I didn't create the context of psychological safety for them to actually tell me what the target challenges were, which is too bad because I could help them and I want to help them. And I wouldn't have just said, Oh, you're terrible. I would have actually gotten in there, roll up my sleeves and tried to figure out what to do. But I didn't find out until too late.
Greg Voisen
Well, the interesting thing you say there, Jeff, is that, you know, frequently as a as a leader, you have to learn how to reframe questions. You know, it's how you actually paraphrase the question that actually begets the result that you need. Now, you talked about this barriers to sharing, right? It's like, okay, if I'm gonna ask this question, are you going to be willing to share, and you identify several barriers that prevent people from sharing, like, in your case, that was a great example. Which barrier do you find the most challenging to overcome? And why? As a barrier to sharing? Yeah,
Jeff Wetzler
so maybe just to quickly go through some of the barriers that I can say which ones? I mean, one of the biggest barriers is fear. People are afraid just like I shared my story, people are afraid that they're gonna look bad, you're gonna get upset, you're gonna take it out on them? Or maybe it's going to create tension in your relationship. I think that's a prompt, that's my answer probably would be that would be the biggest barrier. I'm happy to share the other ones if you want. But But this barrier of fear, fear of the impact of saying something is, is very, very strong and people. And
Greg Voisen
So, if you're a leader, and you feel that this is the biggest one, I mean, people can read the book and get the others. But let's address this big one, right? Fear. Fear has always been said false expectation appearing real. And it's because they believe there's some kind of retribution as a result of being able to share something that might be negative. What would you tell our management people out there today that are working in teams are working as leaders to remove that, what I want to call aura or umbrella of having fear? I know, you know, I'll share a story with you from an author many moons ago. But the reality is, it was true. In hospitals, nurses didn't want to share doctors didn't used to want to share when bad things happened. So they had a hard time doing improvement. Right? We're talking about process improvement and improving things, because they were afraid from the management of the liability associated with a mistake that might have been made with a patient. Okay. Imagine the barrier to actually being truthful, was huge in that example, because someone's life was on the line. Oh, I forgot to put in the IV tube so the person died, right? It's like, and we know that happened. And hospitals were able to overcome that huge fear. Now I tell that story because it's probably a really, really good example in group settings, where you have doctors, nurses, everybody trying to come together to overcome something, share with us how you might help people actually approach that. Yeah.
Jeff Wetzler
And so this is this is part of the Ask approach that I talked about, called make it safe. And this is really about making it feel more comfortable, easier, safer, more appealing for people to tell you their truth, especially if it's a hard truth. And there's a couple things that leaders can do to make it safe. First is creating connection. And I like to say is the time to create connection with somebody is not right, when you need to learn from them, the time to create connection with them is days, weeks, months, years in advance, you got to dig your well before you're thirsty, but to the extent that people have a real relationship with you, and they see your humanity, and they know that you can see their humanity and you feel a level of connectedness with people, that alone creates a level of safety, because they because a lot of times the people make up stories about a leader in their head, they say, Oh, this leader, you know, only cares about this, they would never care about you or whatever. But if they know you that they know you in your full glory, including all your warts, and all your own struggles, and all the things that are important to share when you're trying to create connection with someone. So that's a piece of it. The other part about creating connection is even just the time and place and space of the connection, if you know, if you're creating trying to try to have a conversation and connect with them, that there's only five minutes to go. Or if it's an event, you know, it's in a public place, and they're not comfortable sort of really opening up in that public place, or if they're just not comfortable is very intimidating place, you're gonna like it's gonna feel less safe for them. So creating, the thing about creating connection is to do it on their turf, and on their terms, not where you want to feel comfortable, but when they're gonna feel more comfortable. So that's all one bundle of things. I say, it's,
Greg Voisen
it's great advice. And I would say, you know, I would ask you this, this is a compound question to the first one while you're still answering it. But I think it's valuable. You know, we live in a society today. And it doesn't matter if it's just the United States or Mexico or its, its European countries, it's Germany, it's the kind of the Great Divide, we have so many leaders that don't want to tell the truth. Okay. Now, I don't expect you to have an answer to this. But you just said connection. If Donald Trump if you're listening, you know, let's, you know, let's open up the connection and tell the truth. I think the truth is so much more. Engaging. In it, it's something that allows you to clear the energy, which is heavy in a room. Right? to actually do that. Now, I know lawyers defend people who don't tell the truth all the time. That's what they get paid to do. Right? It's their job. It's unfortunate, but it is. So, I know, I kind of digressed a bit. But I digress for an important reason. The important reason is we have listeners out there that know this is happening, it's happening inside their companies. It's happening wherever, what from your expertise, would you say to break through to actually be able to get the truth out of people? Yeah,
Jeff Wetzler
I think that you're pointing to a really important phenomenon, which is that the lack of feeling of safety goes in both directions. Oftentimes, you know, we were just talking about how leaders and myself as a manager, can create the feeling of unsafety among their followers. But what doesn't get talked about enough, I think, is that often leaders themselves don't feel safe to say their truth to their teams, to their organizations, to their stakeholders. So if you want a leader to tell the truth, a leader in your life, you need to also ask the question, how do you demonstrate to that leader that it's safe to tell the truth with you? And of course, you know, leaders should tell the truth no matter what, but they're humans too. And so the safer they feel to tell the truth, the more likely they're going to they're going to do that.
Greg Voisen
That's, and I love what you said, because that is probably the most I think that the people that are at the top feel unsafe as well. And they that I mean, I think if people can get that, we can bridge this huge divide that has occurred as a result of it. And on that and a little compassion, even if the truth hurts. I would love to see hash and if the truth hurts,
Jeff Wetzler
exactly, and I would love to see more leaders, whether political leaders or organizational leaders say to their followers, let me tell you the dilemma I'm facing right now. I know you want to hear this from me. If I do this, here's what I'm here's what's going to happen. And if I do this, here's what I'm where it's gonna happen. And here's how I'm caught. And let me tell you how navigating it. And so here's where I'm coming down on this issue. But you need to see the ways in which it's complex for me to, I think those kinds of moves on the part of a leader are ways to tell the truth that generate empathy on the part of followers, and can make it easier for leaders to to navigate those tough situations. Yeah,
Greg Voisen
I, I really know this for truth. No matter if somebody is elevated through the ranks to a leader or not elected as a leader, whatever they did to become a leader, there's a lot of power and trust that goes into that. The way to keep that trust is to inform all the constituents that are around you have the issues, just like you said, and if you can feel safe doing that, you should, simply because it's the way that you will harmonize the rest of the work you're doing. Now you say curiosity, mindset, how would you foster a culture of curiosity in their organizations? And what are tangible benefits of doing so? Because this is one of the areas where asking questions requires curiosity, asking the right questions. If you're not curious, you're basically dead in the water. I totally agree. Yeah, the reason my show is what it is, is because I don't think you could find a more curious person than I am to try and find I wouldn't say find solutions all the time, but get in engaging dialogue and conversations that lead to possible solutions. And
Jeff Wetzler
that's what it comes down to. I mean, I think that the you know, the you mentioned earlier, that if you have the curiosity in your heart, the questions will come naturally. And I think you know, that when I when I learned the Latin root of the word curious, I don't know if you know it or not, but it's care. And so curiosity really is about caring about someone else, and caring for someone else, to which I think, which I think does come from the heart. And I'm talking about a particular kind of curiosity in this book, which is not not necessarily the kind of curiosity of like, I'm curious to know, the history of Russia, or how does AI work or though you know, why the trees grow the way they do? It's called connective curiosity. It's I'm curious to know about you, and what you think and what you feel and what experiences you have and what your stories are, and how you're experiencing our relationship with that. And that kind of curiosity, is a curiosity that connects us to each other as well. I think it's good to kind of carry on. So
Greg Voisen
I think that's a statement, Jeff. Sorry, yeah. People don't care how much you know, unless they know how much you care. But that may sound silly, and we've all heard it. But the reality to that statement is so true in all of life, I don't care if it's the waiter or waitress that's waiting on you at the table, it's how you treat them, that makes a difference. It's whether you recognize their name, and you use their name in a sentence, you know, they say our name is the most, one of the most beautiful things where we'd love to hear. So the point is, is whatever you can do, to shift the energy and move it to a commonality, versus a superior over and inferior. Okay, I don't care if you bag my groceries, you're, I'm not superior over you. I don't care if you sweep my floors. I'm not superior over you. We're human beings, we put our pants on the same way in the morning, we do the same things we've had to do every day. Absolutely.
Jeff Wetzler
And I think that, you know, I believe that there is something important and interesting that we can learn from every single person, no matter who they are, no matter what role they're in, no matter whether we are on the quote, same side of some issue, or not from them. And I think that that's an expression of the care that we have I care enough that I really want to learn from you. So back to your question of how do we cultivate that kind of curiosity? Part of it is we cultivate it in ourselves. And I talked about that this kind of curiosity is a choice we can make. It's not just a trait that some people have and other people don't have. It's not just a state of mind that I happen to be waking up feeling curious or not curious. It is a decision that I believe is always available to us. And when we make the decision to choose curiosity, we're really centering in our minds one question in our hearts. What can I learn from this person? And when we send her that question, what can I learn from this person? I find that it pushes out other questions, it pushes out questions like, What can I tell this person? Or how can I show them on right? Or how can I look smart? Or how can I get them to do what I want them to do? Or how can I get out of here, all that stuff starts to fade away? When we're really centered on the intention of what can I learn from this person? And then all of a sudden other interesting questions start to fill up. Like what do they know what experiences have they had? What's their life been like? What do they see that I don't see? How are they experiencing us? In a relationship with me, and so all kinds of things just start to naturally come to mind. To your point about once you have that question centered, lots and lots of questions sprang forth from it. Now, you also,
Greg Voisen
in essence, this is kind of a think tank, right? You know, this is my think tank over the internet, through zoom calls with Yes. And I think, you know, when a think tank, it's really the quality of the questions. So in your case, could you share some examples of high impact questions that can unlock the hidden wisdom within a team or an organization? Because if this is our think tank, right here, Jeff, you and I, then why not share with every 1000s of listeners that come to this show? What you and I could create in this think tank and the quality questions that we could tell them, or at least impart their wisdom on that might work?
Jeff Wetzler
Absolutely. And you are, I think modeling that right now, because you're eliciting from me, something to offer to your listeners as well. And that's basically the point of asking questions, which is how do we elicit the insights from other people? So I distinguish between quality questions and crummy questions. And my definition of a quality question is simply a question that helps us learn something important from the other person from someone else. And it's deceptively simple. Because a lot of the things that we think are questions I would call crummy questions. Some of them are just clumsy, you know, for example, sometimes people will say, here's what I think blah, blah, blah, isn't that right? Or they just say right at the end? And technically, that's a question. They might even be interested in knowing, does the other person agree, but it's very difficult for the other person to say anything other than nod their head and say, Yeah, that's right. You'd have to kind of be an idiot to say no to something that's, you know, obviously, right. So there's, you know, there's questions like that they're sneaky questions where we're really trying to sort of manipulate people to get to do something people weaponize questions and use them as a tax. So all of those are crummy questions, quality questions, just let us learn something. So I'll give you a couple examples. If you want of quality questions, one of my favorite ones, is just a strategy that I call request reactions. And what that means is, I tell you what I think or I tell you my point of view, or I, you know, give you some feedback or give you some direction. And then I pause for a second and I just simply say, Hey, Greg, what's your reaction to that? How does that strike you? How does that sit with you? How does that land with you? What does that make you think? What might I be overlooking? Any version of that is essentially a question that is inviting you to share with me your reaction, your opinion, your thinking on my own thinking. And I think we often don't ask that question. Because we assume that if somebody has a reaction, they're going to tell us. But for all the reasons we talked about earlier, in terms of the lack of safety, if someone disagrees with us, or just doesn't quite resonate, or they have solid intuition that that plan we just talked about isn't going to work. We stand a far greater chance of hearing that if we actually explicitly pause and invite their reactions. I'll pause for a second. And but your reaction to that? Yeah. Well,
Greg Voisen
again, for someone who asks a lot of questions, and that's my rule, is to facilitate a dialogue with an individual, there are important pauses that allow one to take in the information, and then either transform it or not just waiting to ask the next question that I don't believe is so right. But I do sometimes catch myself there. What I attempt to do is stop when I do realize that I'm there and reframe the question, based upon the data that I think I heard. So frequently, I don't always hear it right. But sometimes in never in a podcast interview, but in other places, I want to say, this is what I heard you say? Yes. Now, I know that. In our case with this interview today, it isn't about me repeating me saying I think this is what I heard you say, although maybe I should start using it more, you brought it up. And it might be a great way to have you reframe it. So my list if I didn't hear it, right. Maybe my listeners didn't hear it right either. Right? So I call that strategy,
Jeff Wetzler
paraphrase and test. And it is, you know, it is one of the most powerful and simple things that we can do. Sometimes people say to me, you know, if someone could take away one thing from this interview, or from your book or whatever, it's just one simple thing. I would say, paraphrase and test, when when someone is talking to you just say to them, let me just check. Here's what I think I heard you say, right, did I get that right? Or what did I miss? And it has so many benefits. I mean, I'll tell you when I say that, when I do write that strategy, at least 50% of the time, someone will come back and say, Oh, you didn't quite get it right. Or you missed this important nuance, or Yeah, you got it right. But now that you're saying it back to me, there's something else I want to tell you You're too. And so it makes sure that we hear what's most important from the other person that we heard it right. But it does two other things that I think have a magical benefit as well. One is it just slows down the conversation. Yeah. And so especially if you're in the heat of the moment, you're ping ponging back and forth as a point counterpoint when they make their next point, instead of just coming back at them, if we go back to them and say, Wait, I just want to check that I get that right. It changes everything about the energy, the tone, the the speed of the conversation. And those are the moments when we do need to slow down, when we do need to actually take a beat. And so it just, it's a very natural way to do that.
Greg Voisen
I concur with you. What I would also say is that, you know, in the design of a podcast, you know, there are people like Joe Rogan, that just riff for two hours, yeah, they'll just riff, it's just like, it's just, that's all you're doing, versus a podcast show like this. And my listeners know, I try to get in in the 45 minutes, pretty good summation of one's book, so that the people could say, well, this is something I could use or not use. So in my case, I'm not making an excuse for why don't riff. But I don't riff a lot on this show, meaning like, hey, just definitely are just gonna go off on some crazy tangents somewhere. Although I will say, in a business environment, sometimes it's really good to just riff. But you never know where that's gonna lead. You never know where that's gonna go. But I think for my listeners, they understand. So look, you've discussed the importance of listening and truly understanding and then reframing the question like I just did, is that what I heard you say? I think that was awesome. I think if people if that's all they took away from this, it'd be great. how can listeners or how can leaders ensure that the insights kind of gained from asking the right questions are effectively turned into actionable strategies? Now, here's Justin as important one, right? It's like, okay, you get all these great questions. But then you don't take any action after you finish this hour long meeting. And I don't know, if you're like me, meetings constitute most of your day, right? It's like, oh, my god, can I do another meeting? And then when you look at what gets transcribed for you, and otter AI, and it says, Well, here's the action steps, and you go, Holy shit, if I did all those action steps. So you get where I'm coming from? Right?
Jeff Wetzler
I totally do it once. Once we've posed once we've posed the question and heard the answer, that doesn't guarantee we're gonna learn or change anything. And this is where the final part of the Ask approach comes in. I call it reflect and reconnect. And reflection is really what allows us to convert experience into insight and insight into actions. That's how we actually squeezed.
Greg Voisen
Kindly repeat that, I want you to repeat it for listeners.
Jeff Wetzler
Yeah, reflection is what allows us to convert experiences into insight and insights into action. Okay, we don't always reflect I think sometimes reflection gets a bad rap. People think I don't have time to reflect, right, I gotta go on some kind of meditation retreat on a mountain to reflect. But reflection can be simple, it can be practical, it can be fast. And so I introduced a method for reflection, that I that I call sifted and turn it so sifted is just to say, alright, you know, there, maybe there were 30 things that got discussed in the meeting. Maybe someone told me 30 things, what are the three most important things? Let me sift out the other things, and just zero in that could be looking over the transcript, that could be looking over our notes that could be just thinking through and sort of saying, really, what was the most important thing that I that I was told in this conversation. Sometimes I encourage people to get a friend or colleague or coach to help them sift it. Because sometimes we don't want to, we don't accidentally sift out the wrong stuff. But if we can get it down to like, here are the three nuggets that I got from somebody three most important things, then we turn it and turn, it just means turning it over in our minds in a structured way, three times. So the first turn, is what I call turning it over for our story or story level reflection. And that's basically saying, what what did i How did what I hear helped me update my story about this person, about this situation about myself, you know, my beliefs about this particular situation or issue or getting to update it. The second one is steps. So based on that revised story, what steps should I take? Maybe I should invest further here. Maybe I should apologize. Maybe I should take a left turn, but really naming what steps we should take. And then the last one is the deepest one. And it's called stuff. It's reflecting on our stuff. What did I hear? That might give me a little insight into a bias that I have, or a way of being that I have or how I show up in the world or a deeply held assumption that is That is a deeper, sometimes more painful kind of insight to get. But that's the most important insight to get because we bring our stuff to every single situation. And so if we can reflect and say, Oh, I learned something here, about about assumption I'm making, that is some of the most enduring learning that we can do. So just to sum it up, it's the sifted and turn it make those three turns stories, step stuff, and then I call this reflect and reconnect, because this is not just about a one way extraction of learning for ourselves. This is mutual, which means this is about closing the loop with the other person, it's about going back to the other person and saying, Thank you for sharing that with me. Thank you for taking a risk, if that felt hard to share. And I want to tell you what I'm learning from you. Here's how, here's how what you have shared with me is changing me, I'm growing from you. And here's how I'm gonna do about it. That's the reconnect part. And I think it is very rare in organizations and in our society. For someone to get that kind of reconnection for someone to actually feel like, wow, I made a difference, such a difference that they really acknowledged before and told me what they learned from me. And you can go further and say, by the way, is there anything more you were hoping I would learn from you, or anything more you think I could be taking away from our conversation. And that gives the other person a chance to also help revise what you're taking away. And it has profound impact on the other person, it lets the other person know they didn't waste their time. It shows them how powerful they are, how much you value them, I think it really also increases the chance that they're going to share in the future as well, because they know how much it meant to you.
Greg Voisen
And what comes up for me is, you know, you've created a dialogue, not a conversation, and I can define the differences. But that's where inclusion has been brought into the picture. Where when people say, Well, we're going to make this decision. Well, we didn't actually include some of the team members in the decision making process. And then we wonder why that project, like you just said, didn't get done. One was because there wasn't trust and to possibly because there wasn't an the kind of inclusion that needed to be in that. For someone to say, Well, I had a say, so no, Jeff just told me this is what we're supposed to do. Well, I don't agree that this is what we're supposed to do. So it's now going to go all the way down on the list of priority of things that need to be accomplished. So you can look at this as a heartfelt inclusion, where people are listening with a heartfelt approach, applying their compassion and understanding to each other, and then blossoming into something that is a line together to move there. I know that's a lot of words. But when you really look at it's pretty simple. It's like I tell people, when they listen to one of my podcasts, when I'm attempting to create is this is if you and I, Jeff, we're sitting in a movie, watching a movie, and I was sitting next to you with a bag of popcorn and you had your favorite drink or whatever. And I turned to you and I said, Jeff, what do you think of the movie. And you and I had a conversation, dialogue, whatever you want to call it a minute calls conversation, but heartfelt about, ah, that's the best movie I ever saw, dude, I've really appreciated it. So I try and create this atmosphere that allows people the freedom, where you're a best friend, where Jeff is the best friend, Jeff is the one in the movie theater that we're asking the questions of. And Jeff is going, Yes, here it is. And I think if I can convey that through one of my podcasts, I have more listeners, I have people that will hang in there.
Jeff Wetzler
It's beautiful, it resonates. And I feel that on my end of it. And I think that that is a good way of looking at the situation that we want to try to create in as many relationships as possible, the more that leaders can create that sense of comfort and safety for the people around them, the more likely are they're gonna have a good conversation. It's gonna be interesting, and both people are going to learn from it. And
Greg Voisen
I would and I would say to leaders who are listening, you know, I know you're all busy. And I know you've got an agenda and a schedule. And I know you have a hard time taking this time because you're living in a linear world, if you'd remove yourself from the linear world and open up to the the possibilities of being here. Now. I have this little thing on my desk. Right? And I actually have a clock that I would show you.
Jeff Wetzler
Yes, be here now. Right?
Greg Voisen
So the key is, is to be present with people. So with that being said, what, Jeff for this organizational superpower, I know that mastering these techniques has had a huge impact on your personal and professional growth, which is how you've grown your business and your consulting business and become a leader in written a book and all the things you run. But what does it look like when an entire organization adopts the Ask approach? And can you provide an example of a company that you either successfully have worked with that's adopted this in? And there's been a shift?
Jeff Wetzler
Yeah. When a company or any kind of organization really builds this as a team and organization level superpower, what happens is the collective genius, in and around that organization emerges. All of a sudden, the ideas, the insights, the feedback come from all directions. It's not just the leaders who are who have the answers and who know what's best. But really, that insight is springing forth from all over the place. And you know, in the book, I talk about various different examples. There's organizations like glossier, which is a cosmetics organization that is, is well known for harnessing the insights of its own customers. And so they do a lot of asking and listening to customers all the way to the point where customers help to co develop new products, and customers or even on their own internal slack and messaging channels, having dialogues about what do we think about this product? I mean, talk about really harnessing that. There's also examples. From the book, I also interviewed people at Google, who are often building products, even for their own employees, and are doing incredibly thoughtful ethnographic kind of listening, observing, researching, asking their own people, what's working, what's not working, and really building that in a very fast like a way back into the products in the transcend the organization that I co lead. We have a thing where we do two by twos, so every few months, people who work with each other, say to each other, what's two things I can do? Well, what's two things I can do better, all of a sudden, incredible ideas of learning come out of that, that if you'd had not asked those questions might just be like building up cobwebs in the closet. But because we clear that out every every few months, where people are contributing to each other's growth and development all over the place.
Greg Voisen
It's very well said, Jeff, and I think we're living in a world right now where the trajectory of our growth as a society, to assimilate information, and assimilate knowledge and create wisdom from that knowledge is a really interesting trajectory. And I'm going to ask you about this because with the rise of AI, and other technologies, not just AI, robotics, AI, whatever. How do you see the role of the human connection and the ask, approach evolving in the future? Because I've been to recent shows where there's a robot there and you ask her a question or him, and you get to hear an answer from Ai from what they did. And it's fascinating. The first one that ever did that, that I saw on the internet on YouTube was Tony Robbins, there was a girl that he did a full on interview with, who had been programmed, right. So where do you think this is headed? And how can AI not be? How can it be our companion? Yes, versus it being any kind of resistance to it. Because to me, I believe it's a huge companion.
Jeff Wetzler
I totally agree. And I think for many skills that human beings are currently being paid for, it's not only a companion, it's a competitor. And it will take away I mean, just take take computer coding, as one example. We used to think that if you know if kids could could learn how to code, they would be on a path to a middle class wage. Well, that is, you know, Chachi Beatty and other AI bots can do most of their coding, right, and they can find bugs faster, and fix those bugs fascinating. Also, it will compete with a lot of things that humans can do. But one thing I think it will never compete with, is our ability to really connect with one another, to really learn from each other to really understand what one another's experiences are. But I have found that it can be an amazing companion for that. And so for example, if you if you put into whatever your favorite AI bot is, if you put in something you feel really worked up about really righteous, maybe it's about a political candidate, you say, why would anyone ever vote for this person and elect them? How could they? And then you finish by saying, what might I be missing? You just put that phrase in at the end. All of a sudden, it can help you become more curious. It can help you see actually here five or six things you might be missing. And here's why the people who vote for that person might actually not be crazy. And here's what that you might not be thinking about. And so it can actually be a companion that helps us to choose curiosity. Similarly, you can then say, you know, I've done this in disputes that I've had with someone at work with my wife, I say, here's the situation. What are six questions I could be asking the other A person, all of a sudden generates a whole set of questions. Maybe not all six are perfect, but via four or five of them are things I never thought of that before. So all of a sudden, it can actually help us to pose better questions, if we put it to work for that. And then sometimes it can help us listen better. So I have fed a transcript of a conversation back into AI. And I've said, you know, what are the most important points you hear this person making? What are the most important emotions you hear them expressing? What are the most important actions you see them taking? And all of a sudden, fascinating things come up?
Greg Voisen
And it's, you know, what's curious about what you just said, is the fact if you think about the prompt that you just asked, meaning Jeff wetzler, you say, you asked the AI to give you the most important points based on its learning, not your learning. Yeah. And it actually helped you to really see something that you may not have seen in this book is going to help people see what they haven't seen the unseen. I call it the tip of the iceberg. Let's go under the iceberg. It's really about asking questions. And it's about getting at the ask approach. Jeff, you've been it's been an honor having you on inside personal growth, and sharing your wisdom and experience from years of not only your background in psychology, but your background in business, how you've applied that and put that together, to help people better work together in teams and leadership, and to become better at what they do. It's really an honor to have you on my show.
Jeff Wetzler
Thank you. Great. I've learned a lot from this conversation. Just really, really fun to be in dialogue with you. So thanks for having me.
Greg Voisen
Jeff Wetzler, thanks so much for being on Inside Personal Growth. Go out and get the book, we'll have a link. It's called Ask and the subtitle is Tap Into the Hidden Wisdom of People Around You for Unexpected Breakthroughs in Leadership and Life.
Jeff Wetzler
Pleasure. Great to be with you Greg.
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Inside Personal Growth with Greg Voisen · Podcast 1129: Intentionality with Finnian KellyIn our latest episode, we have Finnian Kelly rejoining us. The last time he was here was on our 927th episode for his program Intentionality Living Guide and now, he’s back featuring his newly released book Intentionality: A Groundbreaking Guide to Breath, Consciousness, and Radical Self-Transformation.
Finnian is a sought-after speaker, executive coach and known as the “Business Mystic” as he has an extraordinary ability to intertwine consciousness with business, guiding leaders to find deeper meaning and purpose. Finnian’s journey to intentionality began with a high-achieving lifestyle that seemed perfect on the surface. However, despite reaching significant milestones—such as building and selling two multimillion-dollar companies—he found himself unfulfilled. This disillusionment led to a pivotal moment of introspection and transformation.
Hitting Rock Bottom and Rebuilding
At 24, Finnian meticulously planned his life with his partner, achieving many of their dreams. They lived in a mansion at a ski resort, were financially independent, and appeared to have it all. Yet, Finnian realized that reaching these goals did not bring the anticipated feelings of worthiness, safety, or love. This led to a profound sense of loss and a dramatic wake-up call.
Amidst this turmoil, Finnian embraced simplicity. He identified 16 basic activities that brought him joy and stability, such as sitting in the sun, walking, meditating, and breathing exercises. These small, intentional actions helped him rebuild his life and prioritize what truly mattered.
Breathwork: A Path to Presence and Healing
Breathwork became a cornerstone of Finnian’s journey. He emphasizes its importance, stating, “Breath represents life. It’s everything.” By focusing on breath, one can connect the conscious and subconscious mind, creating a pathway to presence and intentional living. Finnian’s breathwork techniques enable individuals to break free from automatic, unhelpful behaviors and recode their subconscious minds for better outcomes.
Finnian’s approach aligns with practices like those taught at HeartMath, which focus on heart-brain coherence and emotional regulation. Through breathwork, individuals can access deep emotional layers, release suppressed energy, and integrate past experiences, leading to profound personal growth.
The Intentionality Framework
Finnian’s intentionality framework guides individuals to align their beliefs, thoughts, and behaviors with their true purpose. By focusing on what is true and present, rather than on losses or future anxieties, people can find stability and joy even in uncertain times. This intentional approach allows for a more meaningful and connected life.
For those looking to delve deeper into breathwork, Finnian has developed an app available on iOS and Android, providing easy access to his techniques and practices.
Final Thoughts
Finnian Kelly’s story is a testament to the power of intentionality. By embracing simplicity, presence, and breathwork, he transformed his life and now helps others do the same. His book “Intentionality“, offers valuable insights and practical tools for anyone seeking to live a more purposeful and fulfilling life. Learn more about Finnian and his works by visiting his websites at finniankelly.com or intentionality.com.
You may also refer to the transcripts below for the full transciption (not edited) of the interview.
Interview Transcipt -Not EditedEmailDownloadNew TabGreg Voisen
Well, welcome back to Inside Personal Growth. This is Greg Voisen, the host of Inside Personal Growth. You may recognize this gentleman, he did a podcast with us many months ago, we'll put a link to it. But his name is Finnian Kelly. Finnian, this is all about you and his new book, Intentionality. Good day to you.
Finnian Kelly
Thanks so much, Greg, I really enjoyed our last conversation. So, I know that this won't be pre scripted, we're going to allow presents to come through you and you actually you send an intention beforehand and I didn't share my intention. My intention was to be connected to the Universal Mind and allow some insights to come through perhaps I haven't shared before.
Greg Voisen
You know, you're being channeled with these great insights all the time, my friends, so it's just a matter of awakening to them and allowing them to flow. So that's what this is going to be a podcast full of flow and, and good energy. So thank you for that. Well, so for all of my listeners, we're going to be talking about this new book called intentionality. I'm gonna let the listeners know something about you. There's lots of people out there that don't know who you are, they obviously hear your accent and they're gonna Where the hell's this guy from. But he's a sought-after speaker, event facilitator, executive coach, fan and has been dubbed the "Business Mystic" because of his unique ability to put consciousness into business and inspired leaders to find new levels of meaning and purpose through their creative endeavors. As a creator and chief visionary officer of intentionality.com, which is where you can go to learn more about him his courses is breathe, breath work. Finnian built and exited to multimillion dollar companies in the financial services industry. Through the four paths of intentionality framework, Finnian, guides people to be purposeful and aligned in their beliefs, thoughts, behaviors, so that they can feel more love in their life. And it's www intentionality. And I'm gonna spell that out. Because sometimes people can slip up on that, i-n-t-e-n-t-i-o-n-a-l-i-t-y.com intentionality.com. It'll be in the blog as well, again, to pick up this great Hay House book. Well, so Finnian, what are the deals that really, you know, I read your background and being in the Australian military and all the cool things that you did. But you've introduced this book with your personal journey and what seemed like a perfect life and then hitting rock bottom, you know, you've been there, everybody listening has been to rock bottom once, twice, three times. Can you elaborate on the pivotal moment when you realize that you needed to change your approach to living your life? And what really happened for you?
Finnian Kelly
Yeah, so what happened was, I was living a very intentional life. And I was very focused on visions, outcomes, goals, had everything mapped out. And I went through basically a life journey of constantly going to the next thing, the next thing, the next thing. And then one time when I was 24 years old, just met my partner who I was fell in love with. And we sat down and went, alright, let's go on a life journey. Let's, let's write all this down, what will make this the most incredible life and we wrote out a vision, and then we went out after it. Now, funnily enough, we actually achieved vision, we even achieved it in a greater way, we, rather than just selling one company, we sold two, we were living in a mansion in a ski resort in America skiing, lots of lots of days, 100 days a year, we were financially independent, we're in love. We're married all these different elements. However, what we thought would happen once we achieve that state didn't actually happen. Now, I don't know if we really knew what we were hoping to achieve at that place. But I've now reflected, what we were wanting was some form of feeling some form of feeling worthy, or enough or safe, or loving. And unfortunately, it didn't come. And in that moment, when it didn't come, the illusion came crashing down. Because I'd always just lived in this state of when, when I have this when I have this, everything will be better. But unfortunately, well, fortunately, or unfortunately, my when came. So now the illusion had to face it for what it really was. And why identified was it didn't give me what I was hoping for. And I don't think I actually knew what I was hoping for. And in that place, it was so confronting, then I didn't pay attention when then we started just doing more things. We started starting new businesses doing the normal path and a series of events happened, which almost the universe, basically I look back now and it was the universe was trying to give us little signs and going this path of the X Journal, the future is never going to fulfill you. But we weren't paying attention. And eventually, it was just so much at once I it was almost like spirit picked up my soul and smashed it on the ground and went wake up, like, this isn't going to work anymore. And then that moment I, I was devastated, I'd lost financial wealth, I'd lost identity and lost my partner and I was sitting all alone. And I was questioning even how do I get through each day. And one day, I remember saying to myself, I was so disgusted with how I felt in that moment. And I said, I never want to feel like this again. And that was when the light bulb came on.
Greg Voisen
I think it is the operative word. And there's a fellow Australian, Elizabeth, who writes a book feeling forward. She's been on the podcast, and you said this many times in the last three minutes feeling, because really, what we're looking for is the feeling, not the reader with, let's say, you were shooting for all these goals, and all this aspiration to do all these wonderful things. But none of it was making you feel the way you want it to feel any better. You were achieving. And then you say when is enough? Because you said, Hey, let's riff on this podcast, and I'm going to ask most listeners is when is enough? And when are you going to actually get to the feeling? So you get to this pivotal point in your life, you wake up one day, right? And all of a sudden, you're saying I never want to feel this way, again. What's shifted for you. So you didn't have to feel that way again? Well,
Finnian Kelly
great, great awareness. So one was, I looked at my options. And suddenly, the options that I'd always used in the past when I was feeling low, they just weren't available to me anymore. Because I couldn't trick myself. I couldn't say, well, if I make this amount of money, it'll all be better. Because I've done that, if I have this recognition, will make it all feel better. Because I've done that, if I fall in love will make it all feel better, because I've done that as well. So suddenly, I went, well, none of those paths work anymore. So then I just started going well, what path could work? And what could and ultimately, what could I do right now to make myself feel a little bit better. That's what it really came down. I wasn't thinking about the future, the future was too confronting for me. And the past was too daunting for me as well. All I could focus on right now, how do I get through to the end of the day, feeling a little bit better to just give myself a little bit of a break? So, then I'm the big journal. And I reflected, I looked back through my journals and what are things that have made me feel a little bit better? And I wrote down, I just started writing a list. It's sometimes you got to get very basic to have the biggest transformation in your life. And I just started writing lists, I went, what are the things make me feel better? Well, I know if I sit in the sun, I like sun, I go for a walk, I like walks, I do something kind for someone, I meditate, I breathe, I do some movement. And I ended up with 16 things. And and these, this list saved me and I just went okay, what is the easiest thing for me to do right now out of those 16. And I went, Well, I have a big window, and it looks sunny outside, I can take five steps and just go sit outside and let the sun flow in. And I'll sit there. And for a little moment, my mind. Yes, it was been going over and over criticizing judging myself going, how could you do this question. But then I just got a little break. There was a there was a split moment, it could have been just a little moment where I forgot who I was. And I was just embracing the sun. And I went well, that felt nice. And then I started going what's the next easiest thing I could do? Well, I've got a phone here, I could call a friend and just have a chat with him. And I started identifying if I did five of these I felt okay, if I did 10 of these a day, I actually felt okay, when I went to bed now then I'd wake up the next morning, I remember who I was, and all my problems. And I'd go through the process again. And eventually, I did start feeling better. Because what I was doing was prioritizing what really mattered to me right now.
Greg Voisen
You created a new pathway for you. In other words, you created a new habit, you know, you just kept doing these 16 things over and over and over again. So they got ingrained in your DNA. What I'd ask you though, because you know, there's a lot of listeners out there today. We're, we're living in interesting times, very interesting times now. Now, from a standpoint of historically, have we experienced stuff like we are today? I don't know, because I didn't live back then. But what I've read, is it some of those times back then were even more daunting than what we're having now as with relation to what people had to deal with. But my sense is, is that people Binion from where I you know, I sit doing podcast after podcast listening to great authors talk about their books. There's like this, if you're standing on a beach and a wave comes in and the sand moves out from underneath your feet. Okay, and you don't feel secure people are like how do I put my hands around? This amorphous thing that's happening me I can't predict my future, I can't just like you were talking about all the challenges that you faced, right? It was like, I lost everything, I lost my love, I lost my life, I lost my business, I lost loss, I think people are feeling this sense of that sand is moving. It's very unsteady and very uncertain. And as human beings, we want to be in that certainty. We want to be in that predictability. How is it that you would advise somebody to say, be okay, knowing that you can't predict it, and be intentional in the moment to love where you are now? How do you do that?
Finnian Kelly
Yeah, so there's a few things. So, when we reflect on our story of our life, when people talk about the hardships, and we, and we say, Would you would you change your life, they would always reflect and go, You know what, even though it was really hard, I would never have given that up. Because that enabled me to grow, I learned these things and put me in this different state. So with that knowledge that generally in the future, you're going to look back and go, Oh, yeah, that actually was one of the best things that happened for me, couldn't we flip the script in the present moment and go, this is happening for me, not to me, like here's the moment of opportunity, doesn't mean it won't be challenging or unpleasant, but experience with it will be very different. So that's, that's one. Another part of it is to focus on what is true, and what do we have rather than what we're losing. So when we come back to the present moment, and we're connected to our breath, one of the great ways we're feeling ourselves rooted to the ground, we're feeling that electromagnetic field with the rod flooding through us, we're feeling the connection to the Universal Mind. We start realizing we're here we're alive, magic is happening. I'm just breathing in it's just automatically happening all of this actually, there's nothing to be feeling that worried about right now. Like it's the mind that takes us out of the present moment and creates his future scenarios or, or regrets over the past. So that's, that's another element.
Greg Voisen
And then you do you do not to intersect and assert here but I have this question around the breath work this mind body spirit connection. I want you to get into explaining the intentionality that breath work in our in our ability to improve our overall well being. But I remember reading somewhere, you know, Bruce Cryer is a really good friend of mine. And I'm doing a course with him right now. And he used to be the CEO of heart mouth. And I remember reading about you and HeartMath. Okay, so what I'm looking at here is to take a deeper dive with my audience on breath work, they've probably heard it, some may have experienced it. I've watched your videos at your website, you are really, really good at leading people through this. There's now studios, people who go to to do breath work and like, you know, 45 minutes, right? So explain why this breath work to you. Because you mentioned five minutes ago that you went outside your door, and you sat there and you closed your eyes and you breathe. Now, prior to that, I would assume in the military, you maybe got some training around breath work as well. So you'd been exposed to this before because if you're a high performing military person, you'd get that. Tell tell us what it's all about. Why are you so intense about wanting to teach people this technique? And what is it going to do for my listeners.
Finnian Kelly
So, breath, breath represents life. Think about it, first baby comes out, takes a breath. It's like, oh, my baby's alive, beautiful. And then if you've witnessed anyone cross, and that breath goes out, it's also another moment where it's like, oh, that's end of this life cycle. And in between, we're expanding, you're attracting. And the one thing that we can't live without, for the shortest amount of time is breadth. So it's everything. It's also everyone has access to it. So I love anything, that we don't have to rely on the external or anything that has to cost money. I want to rely on things that we innately have to us, and I believe this beautiful divine intelligence gave everything we need to so breath is there. We also look at the nature of the breath. It's, it's a really interesting part of our body, the subconscious, or the autonomic system automatically drives it like we don't have to think about the breathing, but the breath just happens. However, unlike other faculties of the body, we can also consciously change it by just through our attention. I can go you know what I want more energy, I'm going to upregulate I want to relax, I'm going to breathe out slower. So there's an interesting connection between the conscious and the subconscious minds. And that's really what we're trying to do in life is getting alignment between the conscious and the subconscious minds, but a lot of the time we're working against each other. So the breath what a does it all matter? puts us in this place, or does it puts us in this place of presence, where we have this opportunity to suspend the automatic behavior from the program. Because some of these programs, some are working really well for us, but often they're not. They're most narrative which is, which are driving undesirable outcomes in our life, and the nature of the subconscious that drives 95% of our daily thoughts and behaviors. So it really determines the quality of our life. So that breath, what it does is when we take a breath, we drop into the present moment, and it creates a little gap, a little bit of suspension, where we get to observe, what is the automatic program about to do with our conscious awareness? And we can decide is that going to service? And is that going to lead to the desired feelings we want? Or do we need to override the program with conscious awareness, and that's becoming conscious, really, that's waking up to go? Ah, I don't actually have to do that just the grid of the programs, like wanting me to do that I have the ability to override it. So what is its liberation, its freedom. Its, its
Greg Voisen
does it does it not also open up just for purposes. So my listeners get this, you know, when you do kind of somatic breathing, and you go in, you can go to some very, very deep levels, and you actually get past life, kind of almost regressions. In other words, you don't really need to take LSD anymore, and microdose. Because the new thing is what you're teaching, this literally does take you on a really good trip. But it also can take you on a trip down a path where a lot of emotion gets released about baggage you're carrying around stuff. Speak about that a little bit, because I'm sure this happens in your classes. Definitely. And I want you to mention also, the application you've created to allow people to have easy access to breath work. It's in iOS and Android. So we'll put a link to that as well for the listeners, but mention that that app as well,
Finnian Kelly
certainly. So what we're focusing on doing becoming more awake is to recode the subconscious. So it's working for us rather than against us. There's two ways to recode the subconscious. One is through repetition, which is the daily behaviors connecting the feelings, which are going to imprint on to the subconscious, and it creates a habit, that's one way and the breath is always the answer the breath is the entry to go, Ah, I'm going to override the old behavior by suspending the breath and act in the new behavior. That's one way it's a bit more mechanical, it requires more will. And it's the repetitive practice. The other way is what I call energy interventions. How is the subconscious program formed in the first place, it was from a strong enough feeling which the subconscious took us to be true. And effectively, energy got suppressed. And then over time, we we keep working that same belief loop and it gets builds over time. So sometimes that energy is so blocked, that we need to use a lot of energy to go down and excavate it and bring it back up. And breath is once again, in a very intentional way, we can use that by bringing a lot of breath into.
Greg Voisen
Unconscious pattern for interrupting, but you said belief loop, some people have never heard that. So what you're doing is you're breaking the cycle of that breed belief loop through the bat breathwork. You know, we talked about people who tap tapping, you know, so the point is, you are trying to go back to the days of Tony Robbins in neuro linguistic programming with rubber bands on the wrist, right? So I mean, I'm old enough to recall going to workshops of his we'd put rubber bands and we'd twing them against our arms. In this case, you're using the breath, which you say is totally free, which it is you don't need an extra device or whatever. And you literally break that belief loop. Is that correct?
Finnian Kelly
That's right. So what is a belief loop beliefs are formed in our subconscious. They get created through a strong emotion, a feeling imprints on a belief and then eventually the subconscious goes, Okay, I'll create a program to protect you or create more of that in your life, then those beliefs, then send up information to the conscious mind through thoughts. And then we act on those thoughts through behaviors, which then results in an outcome which results in a feeling which generally reaffirms the belief cycle to start with. And that's why I believe speed, like gets stronger over time. So what we need to do is we need to go in and first bring awareness what is even down in our subconscious, most people have no idea what their beliefs are, and we go in and then we use the breath to have this experience where we're dislodging the energy and then effectively, we're allowing things to bubble up to the surface. And then we have an opportunity to to integrate the emotions that perhaps we didn't feel safe to in the past or we created a inaccurate representation of past affective bottom in the present moment. And then when we release those feelings, integrate those feelings, then we have an opportunity for the belief loop to loosen, like loosen its charge. And then we can actually recode with new beliefs through positive, strong feelings. So rather than being in a place of a loan sad or anything weeks up driving ourselves with peace, love and joy, and then we create new belief loops. So effectively, we can recode 40 years, for example of one belief in a very intentional 30 minute session. However,
Greg Voisen
we wish you sound like Bruce Lipton,
Finnian Kelly
I love. I referenced Bruce Lipton in the book, then the key is we then have to, we can't just rely on that magically recoding process, because the subconscious is just as impressionable the next day. And we're all over the
Greg Voisen
moon, boot up disk, the boot up disk, right that I put in olden days into the computer, that think of that is kind of the subconscious what was on that disk, you're actually reprogramming it right through what you're doing. And I want to get into this area because your book delves into the energy centers, or chakras in the body as well. All of my listeners have heard about chakras, they understand the crown chakra and all the various shockers, how can balancing these energy centers because these are all centers in our body? contribute to more attentionally and harmonious life? Because, okay, I do yoga, yoga is like I do that, because I'm actually resetting, right? These energy centers, right? But yoga isn't always do you remember George Leonard ITP. So integrative transformative practice was basically if you go back to the whole thing I want to explain just for a second year, he had yoga, meditation, and Tai Chi, all wrapped into one practice for two hours, when you left an ITP practice, you literally felt like you were floating in outer space, it was that good. And so that's the movement. It's the intentionality just like what you're talking, it's the breathing, it's the meditation. So yours, talk with us about aligning these kinds of chakra centers through the techniques that you're using with the breath work. Right?
Finnian Kelly
So when I think of alignment, I think about how do we get all these energy centers working together? And and how are we making sure that we have access to all of them, because I like to think of the lower energy centers, the places from the solar plexus down as the place where it's almost the human experience is the place where the ego loves to hang out. And it's very important for us to have a spiritual experience for us to be super grounded and open. Like, there's a lot of people who claim to be spiritual, but they haven't created a foundation of safety or security, and then your foundations are going to be off then. So we need to make sure that we have, we've opened up these places. And effectively what we're trying to do with the breath, when we think about the diaphragm, the diaphragm is incredibly powerful muscle, which which goes up and down, which enables us to bring more airflow in, a lot of people aren't using their diaphragm very well, they were just breathing up in this shallow area. But we're meant to be opening all of these areas up. What happens is when we, when we use the diaphragm, we're effectively bridging these lower energy centers up into the heart and the heart is the connecting up to the highest self. So we open this up, and we are allow the place of our identity, our personality to connect to our higher self, and we connect in this place. And that's when we can start operating from our higher self. So the diaphragm really is that bridge. And we can also use the breath to bring presence into each energy center and just through our awareness, focusing on it, we can start opening it up and going, Oh, well, I've discovered a blockage here. Something has something has stimulated here where I've gone into scarcity in this area, or I've thought that I need to put a protection barrier over my heart, where the heart doesn't need any protection, the heart is infinite. It's powerful. So effectively, when we have those energy centers opened up and all aligned, that's when we're at our greatest expression where we're both that human element, but we're also the spiritual element as well. And generally, life will just be more easy, more free flowing that place. We're also able to show up better with each other as well. Oh, it's
Greg Voisen
it's funny, and it's like a reboot. And I think many of my listeners understand that, but you do talk about practicing presence. It's really kind of a central theme in the book. And I think for the listeners, you know, I obviously listened to a lot of Eastern philosophical material and I get a lot of people on and, you know, I've been to see the Dalai Lama many times and when you look at him and he laughs He's talking about compassion. And he says you only thing that's gonna kill this world right now. And I think we're looking at ourselves and the other 8 billion people on the planet is going to be compassion. And so how can my listeners cultivate a mindset that prioritizes presence and compassion in this world, which is just full of distractions.
Finnian Kelly
So one of the intentions that I talked about his practice presents over comparison, when we compare, we are putting ourselves into some form of lack, we're comparing against often other people or other situation, but actually where I find that one of the biggest challenges we compare against ourselves, these fantasies of like fantasy versions of ourselves, or visions of who we were in the past. And it doesn't help us with the agency of right now. Like, I go back to my previous story where I was at rock bottom, comparing was killing me comparing me of who I could have been the situation I had, and all it was doing was just making me feel worse, worse and worse. So set out to come back to the present moment and go like, okay, through the breath, connecting what is true, right now I'm alive, I'm healthy. I have opportunity. And in that moment, it gives me a little bit of agency, and it helps me go okay, what can I do right now, which is going to lead me to a better feeling a better direction. So anything that pulls us back into into the present, also, all creation happens in the present, like no creation is ever happened in the future. It's just happening right now. Right? When when we are also the only way to access the universal mind, this infinite intelligence source is in the present moment, because it's just what is happening right now. If I'm focusing on the future, by the nature of that, I'm thinking that means the program is running. So then I'm not able to have any awareness of any insights that come through me. So I'm actually cutting myself off from an incredible intelligence source. So you could either be using a really old computer to process things, or you could be using a quantum computer to process things, you both have access to it. Ai. President, let's use the quite literally, the only presence can use the quantum computer. So question,
Greg Voisen
though, you know, look, we've lived in this, and have been indoctrinated and brainwashed by this linear system, life as a linear, so it's past, present and future. So you say, you know, yesterday's canceled check, tomorrow's a promissory note. So just stay right in the middle, which is present. And you know, Eckhart Tolle obviously talked about that. And Deepak talks about that. And, you know, all of these great writers, in one sense, that's wonderful to speak about it, but the programs are so strong that we're carrying, the only way to break those is to break that belief loop about who we are. And what we're thinking and what we're doing. And you said in this area was, I think this is an important one, because you speak about heart coherence. And it's it's intriguing, explain what it is and how it can be achieved through these intentional practices, and also talk about the universal mind. And its omnipresent nature, because, you know, these go hand in hand really
Finnian Kelly
Yeah, for. So heart coherence is when we actually get our heart and brain working together, then they're both very powerful organs, they're helpful, and so that one is necessarily better than the other, but they need to be working in harmony. We've created this story that our intellect is in our mind, in our brain, that's where everything comes from. But actually, through the Heart Math Institute, they've discovered the heart has a greater awareness, like it actually intuitively knows the question, you're going to ask it for you and ask it like, it just knows its experiences everything. And what it does is at the heart receives the information then sends it up to the brain to process it, and then the brain sends information back to the heart. So what we need to do is make sure they're working together to get to that place. Now. We've also understood that there's a direct link through your psychological state and your physiological state, you can change one by changing the other. So if we're in a very challenged physiological state, like I'm very high tense, high energy, I can just start connecting to the feeling of just lying down under a tree like the psychological thing and I'm actually will feel better. Or if I'm in this mental state, where I'm just looping and I'm criticizing myself, I can just use a downregulated breath, one which activates the parasympathetic nervous system, and longer exhale on the inhale and naturally I'll start calming down certain heart coherence, we actually use both what we do is we start with the physiological we start slowing down our breath, we regulating your breath, a beautiful breath in and out for five seconds. You can even eat elongate the breath out a little bit longer. For us to start doing that, naturally, you'll start feeling a little bit more calm, then we go into a an imaginary state, where we go to a time in our life where we just felt a lot of peace and love and joy. And what's really interesting is, the subconscious can't tell the difference between something happening really, or through your imagination. So when you go to that place, chemicals start getting released, which start relaxing, your oxytocin serotonin start getting released, and you start feeling more relaxed. And in that place, you've now got into a coherent state, when we're in a coherent state. That is the place where we're able to learn the most, we're able to be present the most, it's also where we're able able to allow the intelligence to come through us. So for people who are wanting to study, or who are wanting to be really I use this with, with entrepreneurs and CEOs all the time in a corporate environment, we want to make sure we're in a hot coherent state, before we go into any deal transaction or before, we need to learn something, because that's when we're going to be at our greatest intelligence effectively, because we're not just relying on our intelligence, we have access to the Universal Mind, the nature of the universe of mind, is that it's all knowing or creative in everything, at all times, it's this infinite source of energy could be in the mind of God or the mind of absolute. By the nature of that, that means that it also is in us. And that's where the old saying like you are God, like that's where it comes from. Because if it's in everything, at all times, by nature, and we are manifestations of it means we have to be part of it. So when we connect to that whenever we realize that by criticizing yourself or shaming yourself, that's, that's, that's a lie. Because how can the perfect divine infinite intelligence be anything other than perfect, divine and infinite? So that helps us to connect to our truth, while
Greg Voisen
you're speaking about something that I believe in, and I hope all the listeners out there do. But for years and years in, in religion, not spirituality, there was a division between the two. All right, and while this philosophy has moved forward, what you're speaking for, interestingly, at lightning speed, there are still people out there that have divided this omnipresent essence from who they are. But in essence, we are it I'm gonna let my listeners know I have the same belief. And you have the ability to tap into this. And you know, the heart coherence thing, and Doc children and Bruce Cryer and all that if people want to go to that Heart Math route, they can go down there and look that up but get this book intentionality Most definitely, because this outlines it. The other thing is, is that as we were speaking, I was thinking about flow, because Steven Kotler has been on here 678 times talking about the flow genome. And when you look at these chemicals that are being released, that you just talked about the serotonin and oxytocin and all the rest of things, those are created in this state of flow. It's a great place for lots of creativity to occur and imagination to expand and a good spot where you, you don't recognize any, you know, people that get into the runner's high, they talked about that. So you really, in essence, through intentionality, and through your coursework, you're speaking with our listeners, about how they can tap this and use breath as the central theme point to reprogram, readjust and build a whole new life for themselves, which is more in the present. So look, if you were to leave our listeners with a takeaway from here today, like, Hey, this is the big takeaway. What would that be? Or what would they be? Maybe maybe more than one? And what could you do to assure them that when they do adopt, whatever you're going to tell them? That it works, because I see 1000s of people that have been through your God given you at given through your programs that are giving huge accolades. And I'm here to tell you, I think for my listeners, that finian is the real deal. He's lived it, he's experienced it. He's not just somebody from the outside that's saying, hey, go do this. And we'll do it. He's actually had to figure this out on his own in a lot of rough experiences. And those are the kinds of people that you should be willing to listen to and follow. So what are the takeaways, dude?
Finnian Kelly
All right. So one is that you're born with everything you need to build the life you're searching for, because we all have access to the breadth and the universal mind and they are the two most powerful creative sources. So that's first second is you have contributed, perhaps unconsciously but you have contributed to everything that has happened in your life. Now that can be challenging confronting, because a lot of the time, we're like, wow, that was so, so horrible what happened to me, and we want to be in the victim experience of it. And I definitely was there as well. But it wasn't until I accepted that was the moment that I got liberated, because if I've contributed to everything, it also means that I can change everything. So that was that was a really important part. And then third, what we're searching for when I said you're building the life you're searching for, we're searching for a feeling that's always searching for. So the quicker we start prioritizing those feelings now, the greater our life will be. And I can tell you, it is possible. No one like most people have no idea how incredible life can be. It is magical miracles are being making all the time I spend the last part of the book all about making miracles. And once you start realizing that you actually do have agency and that you can transform yourself. Wow, it's beautiful. It's a beautiful world. So that's what my big thing I leave it for is it's possible. And it's beautiful. And it's available to you.
Greg Voisen
Namaste my friend, very well said for all of my listeners. The book is intentionality, the author is Fini, Cal finian. Kelly. He also has another podcast interview and other books that you can look up as well. But this is an exceptional book, it really takes the years of his work. And it's kind of consolidated into this into this book. So if there's something you wanted to do, and want to do experience with relation to like, leveraging energy, and disciplined and all the things that he's he's actually put it all in this book, then what I'd like you to do is go out and check out his website at finian kelly.com. And look at the people the testimonials, people have their breath, where it's got a fantastic website, and lots of resources. So finian From the standpoint of this podcast, it's over. But I have 59 seconds for you. And what I would like to ask you is a question that we will use on a YouTube short to actually promote this. So this is the part where you this part is still being recorded. But I want you to get somewhat animated, I want to get you somewhat extremely intentional, I want you to set your breath. And I want you to give me something that I just asked you about a takeaway and this case, something that's probably really personal that you remember, that you think could impact the listener in a very short way a story, uh, something that you could say, hey, listeners, this is it. So deep breath. Ah, here we go. Benny, and Kelly on YouTube short.
Finnian Kelly
I didn't want anyone to have to go through what I went through. It was a really challenging time, there was moments where I was questioning everything. And luckily, I had financial resources. I had a community, I had a lot of access to incredible intelligent people that I could learn from. So I got through it. However, it's not the same forever. And so what I've done is distilled seven years of that journey in one book, and it doesn't matter who you are or where you're at in your life, it will apply to you. You can go through the intellect or through the feeling space body. And I promise you that your life can be miraculous and full of love, peace and joy like mine is too.
Greg Voisen
Fantastic! Thank you for tuning in. I appreciate it. And for all of my listeners, here's the book Intentionality, Finnian Kelly, go get a copy of that book.
Finnian Kelly
Thank you for that.
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Inside Personal Growth with Greg Voisen · Podcast 1128: Spheres of Influence with Brad EnglertFor this episode, we have the pleasure of hosting Brad Englert, author of the insightful book Spheres of Influence: How to Create and Nurture Authentic Business Relationships. Brad shares his wisdom on the crucial elements of building meaningful relationships in the business world, drawing from his extensive experience in information technology and advisory roles.
Brad’s career spans over 22 years at Accenture, where he excelled in various leadership roles, and eight years as the Chief Information Officer at the University of Texas at Austin. His journey has been marked by a dedication to mentoring and developing authentic relationships, which he emphasizes as fundamental to professional success.
Key Strategies for Authentic Relationships
Brad identifies three core approaches to fostering authentic business relationships:
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Understanding Goals and Aspirations: Taking the time to learn about the goals and aspirations of colleagues and clients fosters mutual respect and trust. This understanding is the foundation of any strong relationship.
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Setting and Managing Expectations: Clear communication about expectations helps avoid misunderstandings and builds a reliable partnership. Brad highlights the importance of transparency in all interactions.
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Genuinely Caring About Success: Showing genuine concern for the success of others creates a supportive environment where everyone thrives. This approach nurtures loyalty and long-term collaboration.
Managing Relationships as Emerging Leaders
For emerging leaders, managing relationships with direct reports and executive leaders is crucial. Brad advises new leaders to engage in open dialogue, set clear goals, and maintain regular check-ins to ensure alignment and support. By modeling desired behaviors and fostering a culture of open communication, leaders can create a positive and productive work environment.
The Power of External Spheres of Influence
Brad also emphasizes the importance of external relationships with customers and strategic vendor partners. Building strong partnerships with key vendors, as exemplified by his collaboration with the learning management system vendor Canvas, can lead to significant mutual benefits. These relationships require ongoing communication and a shared vision for success.
Fostering Cultural Alignment
Creating a culture that aligns with the organization’s values and goals is essential for achieving common objectives. Brad’s experience at the University of Texas illustrates how intentional efforts to understand and meet the needs of different departments can drive successful large-scale projects.
Conclusion
Brad Englert’s insights in Spheres of Influence provide valuable guidance for anyone looking to enhance their professional relationships. By focusing on understanding, communication, and genuine care, individuals and organizations can build lasting, impactful connections. For more on Brad Englert and his work, visit his website at bradenglert.com.
You may also refer to the transcripts below for the full transciption (not edited) of the interview.
Interview Transcipt -Not EditedEmailDownloadNew TabGreg Voisen
Well, welcome back to Inside Personal Growth. This is Greg Voisen, the host of Inside Personal Growth. And that young man on the other side of the screen for those of you watching on YouTube, for those of you not watching on YouTube, you're missing two middle-aged men talking together. It's Brad Englert. And Brad has a new book out called Spheres of Influence. And the subtitle is How to Create and Nurture Authentic Business Relationships. Good day to you, Brad, you're joining us from Austin, Texas. How are you?
Brad Englert
Great. Thanks for inviting me.
Greg Voisen
Well, it's a pleasure having you on the show. And it's also a pleasure to have you speak with our listeners about how to nurture authentic business relationships. We do get a lot of business listeners, but this applies really to almost anybody. I'll just tell them that. And if you go to Brad's website, it's Brad, Englert, bradenglert.com. There's where you get to the website with Brad and information about him. If you put a slash IPG after it, I'll let my listeners I will put a link that'll take you to the page he built just for us. So thank you, Brad for doing that. Let me let the listeners know a little bit about Yeah, Brad is the founder of Brad Englert Advisory and an author and advisor and technologist. He worked for Accenture for 22 years including 10 years as a partner. He served at the University of Texas at Austin for eight years, including seven years as the Chief Information Officer, the CIO. During Bad's career with Accenture and global management, consulting and Technology Services, he worked in a variety of information technology, leadership and operational roles for large complex institutions of higher education, state governments, Texas, California, Minnesota, Montana, and commercial organizations such as Best Buy Caterpillar, world blue, pool, Bell, South Deutsche Bank, and many more. When bad retired as a senior partner in 2006, he had a proven track record in Information Technology Operations, large scale Information Systems Implementation and strategic planning. At his website, you can look at his services, his book, his blog, resources, vision and inspiration, I encourage you all to go up to his advisory website. There, you can learn more about him. You also can go to LinkedIn, Facebook, and Twitter. And last but not least, Instagram. They're all listed there. Well, Brad, pleasure having you on. And I think that, you know, everybody's always interested in how to build relationship, better relationships, how to communicate better. So what inspired you a guy that was a CIO, and worked in information technology? Because like we said, in our pre interview, a lot of times the people in that field are kind of dull and boring and
Brad Englert
not very communicative.
Greg Voisen
Exactly. And what inspired you to write sphere of influence? And how do you define influence in the context of professional relationships? And then a second part of that question, so twofold. How do would you if somebody out there is listening GET IT guys to wake up and learn that this is probably the most important way they can advance their career?
Brad Englert
Oh, I've been fortunate to have really good mentors over the years and bosses, I only have two clunker bosses and 40 years, so I've been pretty lucky. And part of the culture at the firm. I joined Arthur Andersen, which became Anderson Consulting, which became Accenture. And there's a culture of building and growing people, careers. And so I was expected to be a mentor, as I became a manager and a partner. And I really enjoyed that. And helping people learn how to grow is a lot of fun. At the university, I had a culture I inherited that was kind of a fire drill reactive it culture, they would speak in tongues and hard for customers to understand what we were doing. And I worked very hard over about a year and a half to change it into a customer-oriented culture. And, and that was a lot of fun. And so I think there's I retired the second time, I still mentor two or three people you hear here in Austin, and but I thought that it really doesn't scale and how can I I can't clone myself so how can I get the message out at to a wider group, and that just really was the genesis of the book idea.
Greg Voisen
And really, a really important thing to do. I mean, I think you saw that, like, getting this message out through this book was really just a brilliant idea, because it's so needed. And I want, I want to have time for us for you to share some of the key strategies from the book, and, and really how to build and nurture authentic relationships in business. Because it's not that people are devoid of emotional intelligence, or they don't know, it's really you've outlined in this book, some really key strategies. And I'd like for you to talk with the listening audience about it, because I think they're, they're excellent strategies.
Brad Englert
Now, there are really three approaches that relate to all business relationships. And number one is, you need to understand their goals and aspirations. And who doesn't want to share that with somebody, and you want to set and manage expectations? You always need to know, I'm a customer, I have someone promised me something a week ago, I still haven't seen it. I don't, I don't know when I'll see it. So, you have to set manage expectations. And then third is genuinely caring about their success. So in the internal sphere of influence, those are people you have the most direct impact with your boss, direct reports, executive leaders, and all your staff and then the external input sphere of influence are people you have less direct impact, but opportunities to build relationships, customers, Pearson influencers and strategic vendor partners.
Greg Voisen
You actually do a really good job of I think, most importantly, if you've got, I'm not going to call him a new leader, but emerging leader, somebody who's really trying to work themselves through the company learn more, they're curious, this book is for those people. And you discuss these internal spheres of influence extensively. How can these emerging leaders effectively manage the relationships with and you just said a minute ago, their direct reports, right? So it's like, okay, who are you reporting to? The CEO, the CFO, the, you know, some vice president, whatever it might be, and executive leaders. And I want to emphasize here, you said three things just now. And one of it was understanding their goals. That was the first one you started with? Yeah. And I think when your report that you give to them, helps them achieve their goals, you then become a big influence. Right? Right.
Brad Englert
That's right. Yeah. It's, it's really the power to help change people. You know, that's the secret power. You know, when I take over an organization, it's a perfect opportunity to meet with your direct reports, and just ask, you know, what's going well, what, what's really going well with the organization? And what could we be doing differently? And just go in with a clean slate, you're gonna trust all your direct reports, until proven otherwise? And ask them what are their goals and aspirations they hope to be a chief information officer one day, or they have been in the technical role, or they don't want to manage people. So manage expectations? What are the goals for coming here? And then check in once a week with your direct reports? How are we achieving those goals, and then third, just genuinely caring about them. And a good example would be requiring all your direct reports, they have a training plan, and then follow up on it, make sure that you go to the training, that they're not too busy to skip training, and, and I try to model those behaviors. So when I'm asking someone to do something, I try to be clear on what I'm trying to achieve. I make sure I specify when I need something, and, you know, how the scope of what I'm asking for, and then follow up and make sure you know, met those expectations. And sometimes people skip over that. And they, they don't set those expectations and that just you just get a mismatch.
Greg Voisen
How do you How would you tell the listeners, could you elaborate a little bit more on it? Some of the techniques and or strategies for setting and managing expectations with their upline or their direct reports, because if someone on above me has said, you know, this is the expectation I have of you what happens when I have to renegotiate, renegotiate that expectation? Because it was unrealistic? Because then it becomes disappointing. How do I manage this sphere of influence? Right? Such that the people who I am influencing and who are influencing me actually trust and or I can have a conversation that says that's an unrealistic expectation, I don't believe I can really meet that deadline or that goal. How do you how what advice would you give? You've been there a zillion times, Brad?
Brad Englert
Well, you need to create a safe environment, you need to make it okay for people to have a two way communication. One of my favorite phrases in the book when you're the boss, your people are not mind reader's. So you need to use your words. And then for the direct reports, your boss says in a mind reader, you need to use your words, I have a new director, join me. And there was a project that was supposed to be done in the summer. And, you know, he was new to the organization. But after he looked at the scope of the work, he really didn't see how it could possibly be completed by the summer. And even though it's the second week on the job, he had the courage to ask me, whatever the okay to really look at the schedule, because I'm not sure summer is doable. And I said, You know what, thank you for having the courage to ask me. It took us 40 years to get this way. What's another six months? Of course, you can read look at the schedule. Yeah, that's like, right. I don't even know where summer came up?
Greg Voisen
Well, I think sometimes I have the courage to say it. Yeah. And you know, people get planning, and then their management above them, and look for maybe an unrealistic expectation, they didn't renegotiate with them. And so it kind of trickles down, all the way through until you're saying this is unrealistic, or we can't do that. And this comes down to this thing. mutual accountability, yeah. plays in maintaining strong business relationships. And I'd say mutual accountability. Because when one person falters in the chain of accountability, it affects everybody else in that kind of chain of accountability as well. So what advice would you give, so leaders can foster this within their teams? That, Hey, open, honest communication as quickly as possible, is the best thing that I could always do to maintain my own influence within side of this team with inside of this organization? Sure.
Brad Englert
Well, the first thing I did when I joined the new organization, was to look at the values of the organization. And the value is really articulated very well. So in the first 90 days, I worked with all my direct reports, to say, what are our values? What should they be an open and honest communication was one of those values, and also, collaboration with our customers. We were this kind of standoffish central group, it group that didn't work well with others, but we needed to change that value. And, and they set the expectation that you should be meeting with your customers and asking what they need and seen asking for feedback and how they do so I think our number one value was family first. Now, why is that? Because we live in Austin, Texas. It's a booming market. All the high tech companies are here. I could not compete at the University on salary alone. But when I couldn't compete on was you work a solid eight hours, and then you go home, you go to the gym, you go read a book. If you have a doctor's appointment, you go to the doctor, if you have a school play, you go to school play. And if you're on vacation, you take the vacation, I would model those behaviors and expect my direct reports to do the same and then do the same for their team. So I think articulating the values and then living up to them modeling that behavior, and then rewarding them for modeling that behavior, I think is a way to change the culture.
Greg Voisen
Yeah, and I think obviously, there were people that took you up on the job because you couldn't compete because you did have more of an environment that allowed them to get off of work and do the kinds of things they wanted. And you said family first, I think that's important. But you know, you there comes time and every organization and and I was just on with the Harbinger Institute and author of the book leadership and self deception. And the most important thing that we find is that these change initiatives, so it's inside of organizations, which are frequent, and frequently fail, you know, about 80% of these change initiatives, because there's resistance, because most people were never actually included, in even being asked about what kind of change that they would like to see within the organization. Can you share some exhibition experiences about overcoming leadership challenges like that, during these major transitions that companies are actually involved and in? You've been there you were with Accenture, you work it? You've seen all this? And what advice do you have for leaders facing these similar situations today, so that they can navigate it and be more, I'm going to call it in flux. Because if you can't be in flux, it's going to be pretty difficult if you're going to be in resistance.
Brad Englert
Well, you need to have a strategy. And I was fortunate when I joined the University that the president at the time and just completed a strategy for the entire university, for the next five or 10 years, here are the changes we're going to make. And he had the Biden the campus. So my task was to create an IT strategy that aligned with the overall campus strategy. So I'll give you an example. The academic side of the House wanted to have more discussion in classrooms and less lectures, they wanted a learning management system where the lectures could be recorded easily. And connection to the Internet easy. So that classroom time was devoted to instruction. But the learning management system we had was horrible. It was clunky, it was 15 years old. It was not securely connected to email, you could not commit to securely email. And so we embarked on a project to select a new learning management system. And it was the students and faculty who actually evaluated the products and selected the product. So when we got to the executive leadership team, the president, the provost, CFO, and said, We're recommending moving to this new learning management system, the President said, Well, what are the faculty and students think and I said, we'll serve they unanimously endorsed this recommendation. And we started a two year transition for 52,000 students, 4000 faculty, what can possibly go wrong? It's a massive change. And it impacted everybody. But the good news is the product
Greg Voisen
did you did you wind up with Blackboard or something like that, or
Brad Englert
Canvas can can can replace blackboard with Canvas, which was designed for the cloud. And it was built with industry standards that made it easy to connect email securely, and other tools. And over two years, we moved the entire university to that new platform. And at the end, an email came to me and the Vice Provost to I teamed up with to roll this out across campus. And it was to the President about our project and I just covered my eyes, it's like, I'm gonna get fired. He and I aren't gonna get fired. And it turned out to be the most complimentary email ever, about what they coined. A boring IT project is actually fundamental to changing the university. And the fact that my team teamed up with the provost office to support every department over two years, including asking the vendor to change the product to be more scalable for us. And they said that could not have done better.
Greg Voisen
Well, it just shows you you know, in spheres of influence, the kind of impact you can have to create these relationships when you have inclusion. And I think the most important thing is is that you had inclusion in the decision You got a unanimous vote to move forward this way, in regardless of the rough spots that you would meet along the way, and I'm sure you met plenty of them, it's easier to navigate with the team when they know everybody's aboard, because everybody then pitches in to work towards solving the problems. And so can you discuss the significance of external spheres of influence? Obviously, there were in this case, the example that you just used, and how professionals can build effective relationships with customers and strategic vendor partners, which is what you were with, with Canva. You lit building us a strong strategic vendor partnership. Could you address that this navigating external influences?
Brad Englert
So not all your vendors are strategic? And in at the university, we had about $100 million budget for it? Well, you're not. Not all those vendors are strategic. And you're exactly right, our Learning Management System vendor was strategic. And so I reached out, after we made the selection and built relationship with the senior vice president for sales. And when we had needs, I would go to him and say, this will really help your product, it will help scale at universities are excited because we're very early adopter. And he understood that if he worked in his company to make those changes, it would help him sell them. So there was a goal for both of us, for them to be successful. And
Greg Voisen
beneficial, I think the thing is, is, is when you see the bigger picture, somebody like Canva, who was vice president of sales, saw that assisting you guys to meet your needs actually helped him sell more of what he had as a result of saying, Well, you know, we have the University of Texas at Austin, now implementing a program and we're customizing it to meet their particular needs and solutions, it just turns out to be like a win win win for everybody a win for the students a win for the faculty, a win for this company, Canva. And for your IT department. So in the end, everybody's raising, raising a flag and, you know, toasting to a huge success. So can you discuss the significance of, or I should say, can you talk about the importance of what would be termed cultural alignment. Now, here is an area where you gotta get align a team's culture and the with the organization, the values to ensure that somebody's working toward a common goal, this example you just use, and it's a great example, Brad, is, you know, hey, we have a common goal, we're going to replace blackboard with Canva. We want security emails, we want to make sure that this learning management system allows for people to record these sessions in the classroom, we want to save them in the cloud, all the kinds of things that, you know, based on when you were doing it, were a lot more difficult than it is today. Today. It's like, hey, push button, anybody can do it. Look at us, you and I are on Zoom. It's being recorded. I'm recording it to this desktop, it's never going to end up on the internet, where millions of people can watch it right. So it things have changed. But the reality I'm getting to here is the team's cultural and organization value alignment, to actually make that common goal occur. What is it that I can do in spheres of influence, to make certain that that occurs?
Brad Englert
Well, you need to be intentional. So I met with the associate Dean's in all the colleges and schools, 13 of them, who are responsible for it in their college and school. And often, the IT people are not always telling them the truth. So they could call me and say, Hey, this has been recommended. Do you think it's okay? And sometimes it was okay. And other times, there are better ways to go about it. So every six to eight weeks, I would write the circuit and meet in their offices and just see, okay, what's going well, what have you heard they have any problems? Oh, there's a big project coming in. In six months. We replaced 21,000 phones to boast Voice over IP. So again, we basically irritated everyone once a year was something but you gave them a heads up that you know, here's what's coming. Here's what we're going to do to help with the transition. And then I asked all my direct reports to build a network of their peers across the campus. So they all had seven to 10 people they would meet with. And we just built this network. And it was like a nervous system that we and our weekly staff meetings would say, Well, what have you heard? You know, what's what's, what's going on out there? How are we doing? We wouldn't pick up rumors, there's a rumor that we didn't have enough diesel for the generator, or the generator ran out of natural gas. Good. Remember, that wasn't true. You know, and we're able to step it out, you know, easily. So I think being better being intentional, and it's not hard, all you have to do is put it on your calendar. And every six weeks, you're in their office, and you built that trust. And
Greg Voisen
it's funny how the small things, Brad, Brad make a big difference. In other words, the intentionality of putting on your calendar and setting an appointment with somebody who is a direct relation to you to communicate and just talk and let them understand what's going on. Because there's so much going on in their world, they don't always pray or into your world, yet. They're supposed to understand what's going on in your world. And so you're giving them an overview of the progress you're making in your world, which affects their world, right? I think that's kind of that's what you did. And you were good at it. And as technology continues to evolve, I want to ask you this question, because we're now experiencing it. As you and I are talking right here. What impact do you see it having on building and maintaining business relationships, because today's world is on? It's a lot on the internet. There's a lot of people, millions of people doing meetings like this every day on Zoom and other platforms and meats and teams, and you name it, they're, they're out there. And we're finding it as a way to actually optimize our time. But at the same time, we're not always making this human connection, meaning we're not sitting physically in Brad's office, talking with Brad seeing Brad's body language understanding where Brad's going, we're sitting here over the internet with two screens and video monitors, tracking, you know, what we're doing? What would you tell people today, you have to use this primarily as a way to communicate their messages?
Brad Englert
Well, I think it's a positive development to have tools like zoom and teams. I think you can still build a connection with the technical tools. My first year at the University was h1, and when swine flu, and the President asked, Could we go online? And the answer is no, because we had a Blackboard learning management system in our data center, which was an eight to 10 year old servers setting you couldn't even buy servers. The email system was 18 years old. File Storage was expensive. And over eight years, we moved as much as we could to the cloud. And in March 2020, my successor is able to increase zoom, increase BPM, and 70,000 people are able to teach, learn, research and do their work. And he just could not have done that, you know, in it with the old toolset.
Greg Voisen
No, and, and I think what's important is that the tools or the ideas and the things that you developed, and spheres of influence, work, no matter if it's online or offline. And I think that's the most important thing. And this is like, the human connection, the true human connection that we would that we need to make to understand that everybody on the team as a human being, we have feelings, we're here not to compete against one another, to collaborate with one another, to work toward a common goal, whether that goal is bringing up a new system in two years, or whatever that goal might be for the university or for any organization you're in for whatever it might be. So looking ahead, what do you believe are the emerging trends in professional relationships and how can leaders prepare for these changes? Because there's always going to be changes. The question is, is how adapt that mindset or we go going to be to actually manage those relationships?
Brad Englert
Well, there's a little bit of Back to the Future and going on. There was a Wall Street Journal article this past week talking about how companies are overwhelmed with the amount of resumes flooding in. And even if they have AI, they just can't deal with it. And so they've implemented employee referral programs. Well, that's back to the way things used to be. And there was such a number, like 30% of their new hires are from referrals. People who know the culture, people know the people that they're referring, there's an incentive for both parties. And so in spite of all this
Greg Voisen
automated knowledge, yes, spite of all this social media and US posting everywhere and trying to get on, indeed and LinkedIn and all this, companies saying, hey, how would you like to refer somebody position?
Brad Englert
Haven't I joined Arthur Andersen, I met somebody in graduate school who worked for Arthur Andersen. And he politely asked what my research was in and I said, Oh, it and the government, because, heck, Brad, that's what we do. He got me the interview. And
Greg Voisen
well, I think, look, you made you make this bond of them. You call it spheres of influence, but I would say this bond and connection, whether you did it online, or you did it in person, I don't think that there's that much difference. The key is that you had an impact on somebody's I'm gonna just say, empathy and understanding for you, you took the time to understand them, and they took the time to understand you. And I tell people today, you know, my business and podcasting. 90% of it, or 90 100% of it is referrals. I'm not out looking for people to interview that's for certain. It's coming to me from people that I've treated with respect that I have engaged with in meaningful conversations, that understand when they come on this show that they're going to get a good podcast, right period. The other element is is just like you said, If today, it's around referrals, then what you ought to be doing is looking for those centers of influence, who can influence those people who could give you the referral. And that's not hard to find they're everywhere, right? The centers of influence are all over the place, trying to comment.
Brad Englert
And you can reconnect with someone who you had a good working relationship with. And it's like, you never stopped talking to him. It's like old friends. You know, so I had a woman who was a client of mine, and her son wanted to apply for attorney job at the university, would I talk to him? Well, of course, you know, we work well together. It's like, I'm happy to help. And I referred him to a group of attorneys in higher ed that happened Association, and he was able to study up and all the principles that they're facing. And so he was able to go into the interview, understanding attorney work in how to read and he got the job.
Greg Voisen
Same thing just happened to me, my son is an executive at Adobe, I went to a networking meeting in a local town here, I met a nice man, I really liked him, I said, You should talk to my son, my son and him hooked up on LinkedIn. They talked him and now this young man is interviewing for a job at Adobe. That's great. So I mean, you know, that's, that's kind of, in the, the man who I met at their networking meeting, wrote me back and he said, You've got to be really proud to have a son like that, you know, followed up and actually, you know, took the time to get back with me and now is seeking somebody out in a 9000 person organization to actually help me get a job. I mean, I yeah, I'm very proud. I mean, I'm like, extremely proud. My point is is that, go and watch that video that Brad did at his website because that video literally tells you exactly what this book is about your current book trailer, it's a book trailer but, but more importantly, to dig into it. There's other ways you can get into it. But go out if you would, and get spheres of influence. This is a great book. And this is going to teach you how to create nurture these authentic, not just business relationships, really, it's any relationship but it's, it's how you become as a person and a soul treating other souls walking this planet. And I want to commend you for taking the time to write it. As you said to me on one of the pre interviews, you just hope that enough people read it and it can make an impact and change their lives positively. And Brad, I just want to thank you for being on the show. Any last words?
Brad Englert
Oh, thank you. I've really enjoyed the conversation.
Greg Voisen
Well, thanks so much. And again, for all my listeners, go to bradenglert.com. There you can learn more about his book. And you can also we'll put a link in forward slash inside personal growth but he actually it's just the initials IP G. So that'll be in the blog as well. Thanks so much, Brad.
Brad Englert
Thank you.
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Inside Personal Growth with Greg Voisen · Podcast 1127: Soul of Goodness with Christopher PhillipsIn a recent episode of Inside Personal Growth, I had the pleasure of welcoming back Christopher Phillips, a renowned philosopher and the author of Socrates Cafe and A Child at Heart. Our conversation revolved around the profound impact of Socratic dialogue and its relevance to contemporary society. Christopher, known for his global grassroots movements like Socrates Cafe and Democracy Cafes, sheds light on philosophical pursuits, the transformative power of dialogue, and his latest book, The Soul of Goodness.
The Socratic Method and Its Modern Implications:
Christopher Phillips has been instrumental in reviving the Socratic method of dialogue, creating spaces for thoughtful and reflective discussions across the globe. During our talk, Christopher emphasized the value of questioning and the pursuit of wisdom through open conversation. This approach doesn’t just apply to philosophical debates but extends to handling personal grief and societal issues.
Philosophy as a Tool for Personal and Social Transformation:
Christopher shared personal stories, including the inspiring influence of his Greek heritage and family, particularly his grandmother, on his philosophical outlook. These narratives seamlessly connect his approach to larger social issues, such as democracy and community engagement. He stressed the importance of philosophy in everyday life and its role in fostering a society that values curiosity, empathy, and resilience.
The Role of Philosophy in Addressing Modern Challenges:
Our discussion also touched on how ancient philosophies can be applied to modern challenges. Christopher elaborated on the Greek concepts of arete (virtue) and sophrosyne (moderation), exploring their relevance in today’s fast-paced world. He argued that these ideas could guide our actions and influence societal progress, emphasizing sustainability and ethical governance.
Christopher’s Newest Work: The Soul of Goodness:
In his latest book, The Soul of Goodness, Christopher delves into the themes of hurt, betrayal, and the transformative power of love and compassion. He shared a poignant personal story about the loss of his father and how that experience inspired the book. This work aims to help others navigate their dark times through philosophical insights and Socratic dialogue, offering strategies for turning personal tragedy into opportunities for growth and understanding.
Conclusion:
Our conversation with Christopher Phillips was not only enlightening but also deeply moving, reflecting his commitment to using philosophy as a tool for personal healing and social change. His work encourages us to look inward and engage in meaningful dialogues that can bridge divides and enhance mutual understanding.
Call to Action:
For those interested in delving deeper into Christopher Phillips’ work or joining a Socrates Cafe, visit his websites at christopherphillips.com or socratescafe.com. And if you’re intrigued by the power of philosophy to transform lives, don’t forget to check out The Soul of Goodness, available on Amazon and other major book retailers.
You may also refer to the transcripts below for the full transciption (not edited) of the interview.
Interview Transcipt -Not EditedEmailDownloadNew TabGreg Voisen
Well, welcome back to Inside Personal Growth! From Williamsburg, Virginia, joining me today is Christopher Phillips. Christopher was on Inside Personal Growth for his book called Socrates Cafe, was that the title of the book, did I get that right or not?
Christopher Phillips
Talked about Socrates cafe and my book A Child at Heart.
Greg Voisen
Yeah, so we had an interview years ago for my listeners, and I've always been transformed by Christopher's work. And so I'm going to let the people know I just a tad bit about you. If you want to learn more about Christopher, you can go up to Amazon and there's a bio there. And is there a website for you, Christopher that you would direct people to?
Christopher Phillips
Oh, yes. christopherphillips.com Phillips with two L's or socratescafe.com.
Greg Voisen
So, you can go to his personal website, which is Christopher c-h-r-i-s-t-o-p-h-e-r-p-h-i-l-l-i-p-s.com. And you can learn more about him there. Well, he is they say the greatest living embodiment of the Socratic spirit in our Kratos, Strophic times. His global grassroots movement of the Socratic or cat or Socrates Cafe, and democracy cafes have transformed the lives of millions of people in every continent on the earth. And I would say definitely so his brilliant and wise books have touched the minds and souls of so many of us. And his soulful style and genuine compassion have enriched the lives that are so fortunate to have read his work. When this story isn't right, of the ugly and the beautiful in our turbulent age, the Socratic words work and deeds of my dearest brother, Christopher Phillips should loom large and that's from Dr. Cornel West, professor of philosophy and Christian practice. He travels the world holding dialogues with people of all walks of life. He believes that the process of dialogue and the space of human interaction are good for us and individuals and essential for us as a society. As goals just inspire curiosity and wonderment. It says wonder, but I call it wonderment, transformative sort one of the nature of self discovery, openness, and empathy. And that's what this book talks about. So why don't we dive right in, you know, your journey started on the island of is it Nate gross
Christopher Phillips
Nishimoto screes. It's one of the 12 Dota Kennys islands in the South IG and for my grandparents from emigrated not once, but twice through Ellis Island to the United States. And I brought things full circle by when I became a citizen of Greece, as well as the US and I try to go back at least once a year. I feel so
Greg Voisen
So how has that heritage that Greek upbringing and heritage influenced your philosophical pursuits and writing because you have quite an educational background and acquired a written writing background. And now you're going to be writing a new book about how it relates to the Financial Services kind of industry, which was a new twist to me because I knew nothing about you going down that direction. But how is that influenced is being born, they're being raised by parents, their grandparents really kind of influenced you to write what you've written about.
Christopher Phillips
That's a it's a really good question. You You mentioned my degrees you know, I have all these formal educational degrees. And you know, and I, I but everything about philosophy I really learned at the knees in many ways of my my Greek relatives, especially my Yaya KALLIOPI. Kawasaki, Lee boo.
Christopher Phillips
Yeah, who is you know, they left their little island to this day when it's not tourist season. It's tourist season right now. It's just like, it's the population is less than 1000. Greece has 1000s of islands. And they left nice heroes because Mussolini's minions had taken over the island. She could no longer teach Greek in the schools. And she wants she came to the United States and twice she didn't like and she went back and then her husband went, my namesake, Philip, that's my first name, went and got her and brought her back. But she then opened her own school of Greek language and culture in the Tampa Bay region of Florida through to it so and she taught me so much in a way I would have never learned in formal schooling. In a way it made it almost impossible for me me to ever acclimate myself to academic philosophy. All my degrees, my Bachelor's of women marry my three masters, and my PhD, they're not in philosophy proper. Instead, I took this renaissance approach, just like you take to all the amazing people, you interview with a sort of open curiosity. And so I use that to filter my Socratic thinking through because to my grandmother, these words that are used in academia or retail, you know, it's translated as excellence or virtue to her. They're not just words, they're spirits. They're strong strivings. So we're always trying to become more excellent, more virtuous, more open, more kind, more empathetic, more courageous. So so that's how I learned about these terms. And the more ossified, desiccated way that they're taught, never, never spoke to me, really. And so
Christopher Phillips
They say grandma.
Greg Voisen
And so it's interesting you say that, Christopher, because I have a book by Brian Johnson behind me here called era Tay. And if you know anything about Brian Johnson, you may or may not know him, I don't know. But he's basically taking the Socratic principles and methods and philosophy and put it into it's quite a volume. It's about 400, and something pages long. But it is a wonderful work. But we're here to talk about the soul.
Christopher Phillips
I want to meet this fellow kindred spirit.
Greg Voisen
Oh, he definitely. I'll introduce you to Brian Lee. And I'll put you two guys together. Because you know, he would be somebody for years now I want you to hold up the book, The soul of goodness book, which I know is right behind you. Because we're here to talk about this book in a way that people can understand not only why they'd want to buy a copy, but the reality is so that they can get an idea of what's in it. So you explore transforming hurt and betrayal into love and compassion. And it happens in everybody's life, I'd say hurt betrayal. Can you share a personal experience that in style inspired you to write about that in the book because I am reflecting on he was never on the show. But I'm I'm drawing a blank the hero's journey. Okay. And I'm saying Joseph Campbell, was somebody who, you know, when we go on this journey out in life, like you have, like I have, these things are about bound to happen, things good and bad will happen to us. And you write about being able to transform this and turn it into love and compassion. And I want to know what your take is on that.
Christopher Phillips
Well, you know, there's degrees of law, there's degrees of betrayal, there's degrees of hurt. This was the first book I wrote that I had never planned to write, but that I had to after the death of my father, Alex or Alexion drugs Phillips, his own father died when he was just seven years old. Soon after they emigrated to the US and he became man of the family. He had taught himself to play piano by ear like boogie woogie, music and dance halls and taverns seven, eight years old, delivered groceries, Hawk newspapers on the street corner, he had this Never Say Die spirit. He became he ultimately became this chief executive for the Department of the Navy rose way up, oversaw the construction electrical systems in the nuclear aircraft carrier fleet in Newport News, Virginia. And so it was it was a really painful arduous loss. When those were with my dad at the end. Never even let me know that he had died. By the time I got there, and other honest people got there, most of his belongings had been removed. Careful saver and planner, my dad sold mutual funds, America funds, when he was working as studying to be a ship designer. In his 20s he was always an astute investor saver planner. But everything poof disappeared. And so and then there were so many ugly acts is still unfold to this day.
Greg Voisen
So your book, in essence, this betrayal is a betrayal that was was kind of released, or I should say, brought upon by something that happened with your father and so on. And I and I heard that at the beginning of our discussion as well. And I want to just acknowledge that and say that I'm sorry that happened. But if you can help others heal as a result of this because your experience is not uncommon. I've heard this more than
Christopher Phillips
I mean, look at the World News Today. And so many families are suffering unspeakable loss, their lives shattered forever. So many people die of preventable illness 10s and 10s and 10s of millions are caught in the middle of conflicts not of their creation. They're just want to be able to raise their family, educate their families, protect their families, when you can't do that when you can't protect your loved ones. It's got to be the most tragic sense of hurt, and you feel that you betrayed them. And that's how I sort of feel with my father. The point is, okay, for those of us who are lucky enough to survive the slings and arrows were still standing. If you can withstand, you know, you're being just all these acts or you're being buffeted backpedaling. What can you do my background, says a philosopher, I'm not a psychologist, what kinds of insights can I offer those who are suffering any type of reversal, setback loss? Because there's many types of grieving? What can we do to channel those things from a philosophical standpoint, to move forward and to carry those on our shoulders who we've lost in ways that aren't heavy, but are light that would have them you know, cheering us on and rootedness someone, regardless of our religious beliefs or spiritual beliefs. So my teachings from my yoga, my my vast readings in my 28 years worth of Socrates cafes around the world, sort of, were the cauldron that tested me to see what I had to bring to this, and, and how not only I could survive, all the while trying to keep my family safe. have very young family, a 10 year old and 17 year old I did everything late in life. But But what spirits can we harness that can help us move forward in ways that also can serve as models and guides for other people who are going through other kinds of loss. But nonetheless, we're all now part of that family of survivors of loss, whatever that may happen to be, and so I write about the constellation of Socratic spirits, that, again, these are things that I learned starting when I was around, round five years old. You know, my Yeah, didn't you know, the big famous phrase of Socrates is the examined, unexamined life is not worth living. But given what happened to him, what he was really saying was the examined life is worth dying for, you know, put it all out there, you leave nothing, you just give everything you got. You never know when your mortal moments going to end. And so you just leave it all out there. And so, Yaya taught me that there's this constellation of spirits, they're not these rigid definitions that people talk about, you know, Al demonia, sofr sign, our Damon our inner voice, they're all weave weave together interlaced inner Stice, so that we can achieve a kind of wisdom that always imbued is imbued with empathy. You know, there,
Greg Voisen
how have the I mean, you, you say this is a deep moral exploration, but I want to know, you know, arity, and software sign, you say these ancient Greek philosophies gods have influenced your views. And I want to know how they influenced it in on modern challenges? Because then, I mean, we got we're going back 1000s of years here, right? The reality is, we're living in 2024. Be it in my estimation, I think some of the most exciting times that in my time on this planet that we're being lived in, although challenging to see the degree, but also exciting, because we all have a lot of opportunity from it. How do you take a look at that, what is your philosophical viewpoint on that? And how do we take this as you say it in the soul, good, moral expert exploration.
Christopher Phillips
I mean, I think every action should be imbued with with a moral compass, ethical compass. I tried to take a long view. My actions are not meant to just be one set of pack this generation or even five generations, but I try to think 100 generations hence 500 generations hence, you know, we're on the cusp, as you said, of so many things. So these are times of great darkness in times of extraordinary light. We have choices to make, and we each can set an example I truly believe and that's why I started Socrates cafe in 1996 was it's so easy to point the finger at others of politicians for polarization, or whatever. But we have to look at ourselves and say, what are those of us who are privileged enough to be in a position to do so? What can we do to be some of the change that we can say recognizing that none of us has a cure all that there's many complementary approaches to everything that we do? I mean, I feel like you're a total kindred spirit, for instance. So what there's so many of us fighting the good fight, in the case, since my father's death. I mean, I started a new project called Cafe for Shakespeare. That'll be another book that I'll have. It takes some of the Cornel West, who wrote the foreword to solar goodness said, you know, Chris, you have a Shakespearean soul. And I hadn't shared with him anything that had happened yet about about my father's tragic loss. And so I took some of Shakespeare's key questions from plays, that were posed by his characters, and we're journeying around the world asking those two people who also participate typically in Socrates cafe, I became an investment advisor representative for for Martin capital.com. Because it was just a serendipity. When he became a member of our nonprofit board, we became friends, I told him about what my dad did. And that initially, after graduated from where remarry I was going to get my MBA at the University of Virginia, and also in fall in his footsteps in the investment area. But I, I decided to become a writer instead. And I checked that for $50 a week job in Maine. But so, you know, investing with a social conscience, I specialize in environmental social governance, investing, socially responsible impact investing. And so you and I are kindred in that too.
Greg Voisen
Impact investing, I think is impact investing. And then listeners if they asked yet, and the gentleman resides, I think back east someplace, is a new PBS series. I think it's six part series, called a brief history, a brief, something of a brief look at the future. And I think when you really see this, and the reason I bring this up is because the documentary has done so fantastic. I encourage everyone to go see it. Now, you said you weren't looking to write this book. And I know that you weren't. This came as a result of you're dealing with the grief and loss as a result of your dad's passing. And really, all the other extenuating circumstances which you had have explained a little bit about how has this changed? Or has it your philosophical outlook, and direction, kind of with relation because there's, it sounds like there's a real unique opportunity here, for you to grow, and a unique opportunity for you to relay this lesson to many of my listeners about how to bring more goodness in their life, the soul of goodness, more compassion, more love. Because the first thing that happens that I think happens, and I've had it happen to me, so I'll just say this is when you're hurt and betrayed. There's this whole vengeance thing that comes up, right? Like, I want to get. I want to have vengeance on this person, whoever did this to me. Because it isn't right. It wasn't morally right. It wasn't ethically right. There wasn't anything write about it. Speak about that, if you would.
Christopher Phillips
Yes, that's a beautiful way of putting things because, you know, so much of my guidance, again, comes from my father's example. You know, he never felt sorry for himself when his father died when he was just seven years old. You never know, whoa, was me. He had this Never Say Die spirit. And so that last stone with me and imprinted with me. And so, ultimately, over time and took some, it's still every day, every day is still a challenge. No, Robert, Dr. Robert Coles, who was a dear friend who supported my work, who wrote the Children in Crisis series, you know, he points out that every day, you know, people are suffering so much and you don't even know it. You know, so many people who take their lives you go, I didn't even know he was going through something like that. So people hide it so well. One person who has been through tragedy said to me, just imagine how the person who was with your father just imagine how empty and hollow that person is, you know, to do those things. And it resonated with me because it's like, you know, I have to become more Chris Phillips than ever. This is the real test. And so I did I started channeling these you know, now I recently became A philosopher in residence for the humanity in deep space program that sets humanity in deep space.com. So, you know, again, there's there's many of the conflicts that not good ones in the US and elsewhere around the world are our platforms for getting us to steer our gaze farther afield more quickly than we otherwise might have anticipate? Well,
Greg Voisen
I also think that you know, this whole threat, you talked about democracy cafes, people are perceiving much of what's going on as a threat to democracy. And and I guess this is, you know, look, Socrates Cafe is about talking about things just like what you and I are talking about a year? How is how is this democracy Cafe kind of contributed to the theme of your book? They're the themes of your books, because, yes, that this is a fundamental. I'm going to just call it right, that everybody should have in this world, which is democracy, which doesn't exist. But that's in a perfect, utopian, utopian world. Do you believe in this country speaking with most of our listeners are here in North America? We do have them worldwide. But what what would you like to say about this democracy cafe?
Christopher Phillips
Well, it's been interesting, because in the last two years, there's been a level of polarization that almost makes me nostalgic for the polarization that existed in 96. When I started this, it's, it's, again, it's time for each of us to stand up and be counted more than ever, you know, if we want freedom of expression for ourselves, maybe we want and also for those whose views we find sometimes repugnant. Maybe it behooves us more than ever to become more careful, empathic listeners, you know, if somebody says a comment, political perspective that touches pushes a button, instead of just pushing back and getting a knock down, drag up, find out why they're coming from where they're coming from, you know, why do you think that? What's your story? I mean, to me, everything's about story. And so let's just learn from each other. Just, you know, so many people are used to pushing your buttons, if you actually just say, Well, why do you think that and they see that it's can be transformative for you and that person, because suddenly you're stepped out of the argument in a frame and you're more into the meditative storytelling narrative frame. And I've found again, and again, that people who come quite often to vent and yell and scream as soon as we step back and genuinely ask them a question out of heartfelt curiosity, why do you hold this view? Where'd you get it from?
Greg Voisen
I think I think one of those things is we should seek to understand amasty Understood and be understood. Right. So in other words, I mean, that that's an old statement. But the point is, is that there is a lot to that we're don't seek to understand. Because we've created this divisiveness as a result of a belief that's so strong that runs so strong in us that we exist opposing viewpoint not Oh, okay. I want to speak for the disenfranchised white male in the world, who is feeling that Donald Trump is the Savior and is going to vote for them? As a result, I can say what the hell I want on this show. It's my show. So that's the point. That's what I'm saying is that the my are we seeking to understand, quote, and it's a lot of people, but I'm going to use this, this pair for the disenfranchised white male. And, you know, it is interesting, because there isn't a lot of diversity.
Christopher Phillips
I mean, one of the things that I praised my professors at the College of William and Mary for was that they nudged just out of our comfort zones. You know, they didn't care in the slightest if we agree or disagree with them, what they cared about was that we supported our points of view, well, that we brought a lot of things to the table. And so that, you know, that's why I acknowledged them in my books, because they they modeled what I hope to be, you know, it's one thing to be able to get your point of view across, but it's another thing if you really not just allow somebody to have their say, but really seek to open yourself up to why people come at things from such a different slant and perspective than you. At the end of the day. I mean, democracy can also be about argument. It has to be about debate. You win the day, you lose the day, you dust yourself off and you get back in there, and you don't hate the person who's you know, you're opposed to
Greg Voisen
the I know that Christopher We're in. There is this PBS is doing it again, they're bringing opposing views into a room. And then interviewing, they're letting the two groups talk. Now you wouldn't you could call this the democracy Cafe really if you wanted to. And I forget what the title of this thing is. But it's it is surprising the way people shift and their differences in belief as a result of engaging in this dialogue that's occurring inside these rooms that are actually being videoed, I forgot. It's called the American something or another. You probably know and I'm sure you've run across it. But it this gentleman who started this on PBS, is perpetuating it. Through these almost I'm going to call them democracy cafes, it's like, okay, here we go. You know. And when you watch the videos back, it's really something what happens at the end, when people walk away?
Christopher Phillips
You know, in the kinds of 10s of 1000s of dialogues I've held more much more often than not people who are sure that they're on polar opposites. They discover uncommon common ground,
Greg Voisen
and common common ground. I like that in the
Christopher Phillips
theological pursuit of not just saying what you already know that you think but by giving birth, what we call the my unik, two views that you didn't even know you had that you harbored within. And within there's these wild moments, that's the reason I'm still so jazzed about holding Socrates cafes, constitution, cafes, my newest cafe for Shakespeare, because I learned so much about myself. And I asked, you know, I go into maximum security prisons, you know, I asked myself, you know, just for a move here and a move there might have been me. You know, I leave with greater humility, I leave with a greater sense of courage. You know, I have to sign forms. Sometimes I go into prison saying, If I'm held hostage, they don't have to necessarily negotiate for my release. I'm sure, there's some things but the whole idea to me on a Socratic journey, which is in the shape of a question mark, is, is, is discovering the discovery of the surprise in the novel. So for instance, we might we might talk about whether the United States troops should be in Afghanistan. And so and so people get in as loggerheads knockout drag out, back and forth. And then I'll say, Well, what is the just war, and they step back Whoa. Because then they have to articulate the philosophy of what adjust war is. And though they may have diametrically opposite examples of what constitutes just war, they may have the remarkably similar, if not identical philosophy behind what that is, so that that discovery of uncommon common ground, giving ourselves the time and space to learn the art of frame of artfully framed questions, and listening, listening with all of our being at a time and climb when colleges offer classes on rhetoric, debate, forensics, persuasion, what about a dedicated class just on the art and science and science of listening, because I think what the world needs now is a world of more empathic, careful, listeners. So we're a chance to share our stories. Yeah.
Greg Voisen
Compassionate, listening to you know, it's compassionate aid, you could call it empathic. Yeah, I think certain people can do that. But I think, just listen, to listen, and do it with compassion and an open heart. The other thing is this book that we're speaking about here, that the soul of goodness, now I want to ask, I'm going to put a compound question together, because I seem to be good at that. What do you want the readers to take away after they've read this book? If there was two or three key points that you want to make? And then what is the legacy that you because of, you know, constitutional cafe, Socrates, cafe, democracy cafe, what are you want to leave behind? If I wrote your epitaph tomorrow?
Christopher Phillips
Wow. Well, anybody who is suffering some sort of darkness in their lungs, grief loss, despair, betrayal of any sort, I believe that they can come to my book and discover among otherwise books that this is a very unique approach to harnessing forms of types of spirits that I share with them that I learned at the feet of my my grandmother, my great grandmother that will help them on their journey. I want them to know that as arduous as it is, there is light on the other side of the tunnel. You and one of the ways that you can discover just to take on to discover for yourself, what can I do in my immortal moment? What can I do? That's my way of not just saying I'm here, but that can make a difference with others as well because everybody has a gift to offer. I believe that fervently many people come to Socrates cafes over the years, that's been their Springboard as they ask themselves, who am I and more forward looking? Who can I still be to, to taking on new projects and new initiatives to becoming more immersed in the civic world? And it's because you have to have this hope that you know this, this is just the beginning. Any experience can be the springboard for learning for growing. And I don't mean that in a pollyannish way, there's some we have to struggle through many things. But that to feel that sense of kindred spirits witness with others, including with me, if they go to our my Christopher phillips.com site, there's it or Socrates cafe.com there's a drop down page where they can actually get a guide on what the Socratic spirits are that I'm talking about, that hopefully will also want them to really dive into the pages of soul of goodness, I think he's
Greg Voisen
got on there you pardon me, but you do have a link to the book. So people can buy that at Amazon and so on. You've got booking engagements, which is another place you've got some odd thing 10 Post posts that you've done and features and essays. So I want to encourage my listeners because this book is obviously the newest one. But he's got a child at heart constitution Cafe Socrates and loves six questions for of Socrates, which is the one that you and I we actually did Socrates cafe, a fresh taste of philosophy. And I know are these just for my listeners are your cafes still meeting all over the country, and they there are there,
Christopher Phillips
it they're expanding more than ever, which is so moving, and humbling. There's over 500 groups, if people will just write to us by going to our website and emails, right there, any of these sites, and then we can set them up with the coordinator, and specific parts of the globe. Its burgeoning. Now, in the Middle East, my birth, six of my books just recently came out in Arabic, that come out in Romanian. It's it's burgeoning more than ever, that I just got this beautiful post when my book Socrates cafe was published in in Poland, where there's, there's a mix of democracy, cafes, and Socrates cafes. I want to stress though, that I probably learned more from children than anybody else. So I have 12 children's books, most of them published, at least in English and Spanish, but but a number of them also published in Greek and Japan, and Japanese and Arabic, and other language. But children are my best models for learning how to think in not just in black and white and gray, but to think in the dazzling array of colors. They keep me honest in a way that no one else does. And so I seek out children and youth to engage with look at look at these kids in Montana, who got the judge to issue this ruling about climate change. They wanted to see in the world they are about and shakers, that so my books reflect that, especially probably worlds of difference in philosophers club. And once a spring from that,
Greg Voisen
well, you have a YouTube video out there that I want to direct and we'll put a link in our blog to that it's called A World Without fences. How Socrates cafes connects us. Dr. Christopher Phillips explores how Socrates dialogue can be used as a tool to bridge divide, bridge to tool to bridge divide, and have meaningful discussions. I'm gonna put a link to that in our blog. Christopher, you know, we'll certainly do everything we can to support you. I appreciate you bringing on we'll hold the book up again for
Christopher Phillips
in terms of in terms of legacy, I feel like even if I once I Stelter started my first Socrates Cafe group, it was like, Okay, if I get hit by a truck tomorrow, it's okay because I found my thing, you know, spoke to others and now that they'll, they'll carry the torch. So I just want to feel like you know, if somebody wrote something was, Chris generally TRIED TO BE THE CHANGE personally that he wanted to To reflect in the world at large,
Greg Voisen
well, that would be on your epitaph, which I asked you as part of that question. So you got it in there. And I appreciate you doing that, Christopher. And I appreciate your time today that you gave the listeners and myself to not only learn more about what happened with your father, but how you use that as a learning tool to then write a book, and help so many other people that have dealt with betrayal and hurt. And I think the the examples that you use in the book for all my listeners, is a great way for you to learn how to deal with this better, however you choose to learn with it, it's your choice, but the only way to heal from it is through compassion and understanding. So, kudos to you. I want to thank you again, for another great book, another opportunity for us to speak don't let's not wait so long in between podcasts. Let's do another one. Because I think this could be a good topic to speak about. And thank you for going into those prisons and doing what you're doing as well. I know another gentleman I'm gonna hook you up with, it's doing the same thing. And so Namaste, to you. Kudos to you. Thank you for so much.
Christopher Phillips
It's always an honor to have you on your program. Your curiosity and openness is is a real example for me. I just bought a book because of you called Mind magic.
Greg Voisen
Oh, yeah. Dr. Yachty? I'll introduce you to him. Yes, I'll make an introduction. Yes.
Christopher Phillips
But you You really are a touchstone for me, and I'm very grateful to you. Well,
Greg Voisen
likewise, as well, it was way too long for me to make the connection to get back to you. But I appreciate it. And I all the success in the world to you at Martin financial and doing what you're doing with what I'm gonna call socially responsible investing. That is really, really the key to changing our world. And the more people that invest in into it, the better off we're all going to be and reach out to Christopher, if you want on it through his website, if you're interested in learning more about socially responsible investing, and he certainly could help you with that as well until,
Christopher Phillips
yes, we Martin capital.com is our website and I'm one of the people on that list. You can go to my my direct email right there. I just had another client this week, which was really beautiful. People trust me.
Greg Voisen
Well, they should, they should
Christopher Phillips
Yes, but they know that they're in good hands. And so that ties in with everything, just about what can I do during my immortal moment to leave a bit more wood on the woodpile and make sure that we're all more cognizant of the losses and struggles and challenges of everyone else. And then we are you
Greg Voisen
You are the soul. You are the soul of goodness. So yeah, just you I mean, look, the title of the book, really is who you are. So thank you. Thank you again for being on the show. Thanks a bunch.
Christopher Phillips
It means so much to me.
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Inside Personal Growth with Greg Voisen · Podcast 1126: The 32 Unbreakable Laws of Money and Success with Brian TracyToday, we have the pleasure of hosting Brian Tracy, a renowned speaker, author of 94 books, and the founder of Brian Tracy International. Featured also in this episode is his new book, The 32 Unbreakable Laws of Money and Success: Transform Your Life and Unlock Your Unlimited Potential.
The Power of Time Management
One of the most impactful moments in Tracy’s journey was realizing that time management is not just a peripheral skill but the central determinant of success. By planning his days meticulously and focusing on high-value tasks, Tracy discovered that effective time management is key to achieving extraordinary results. His book, “Eat That Frog,” encapsulates these principles and has resonated with millions globally.
The Importance of Self-Discipline
In today’s distraction-filled world, self-discipline is crucial. Tracy emphasizes the ability to say no to low-value tasks and maintain focus on what truly matters. This practice is the backbone of successful individuals who prioritize and complete their most important tasks without succumbing to distractions.
Embracing the Law of Causality
Tracy explains the Law of Causality, which asserts that everything happens for a reason. By understanding and leveraging the causes of desired outcomes, individuals can replicate and improve upon these factors to achieve success. He advises studying successful people and emulating their habits, such as early rising, hard work, and continuous learning.
Contributing to Success
The law of compensation states that we are rewarded in proportion to our contributions. To increase one’s value in professional life, Tracy recommends focusing on results. By understanding and exceeding the expectations of your superiors and clients, you can significantly enhance your contributions and, consequently, your compensation.
Taking Responsibility
Tracy underscores the importance of taking full responsibility for one’s life. Negative emotions often stem from blaming others, but true happiness and success come from saying, “I am responsible.” By letting go of past grievances and focusing on positive actions, individuals can fill their lives with empowerment and joy.
Achieving Financial Independence
Financial independence is a common goal, and Tracy advocates for disciplined saving and investing. He illustrates that even modest, consistent investments can grow significantly over time due to compound interest. By improving your skills and increasing your earnings, you can accelerate your journey toward financial independence.
In conclusion, Brian Tracy’s insights offer a blueprint for personal and professional success. By mastering time management, practicing self-discipline, understanding causality, increasing your contributions, taking responsibility, and pursuing financial independence, you can unlock your potential and achieve your goals.
You may learn more about Brian and his works by visiting his website.
You may also refer to the transcripts below for the full transciption (not edited) of the interview.
Interview Transcipt -Not EditedEmailDownloadNew TabGreg Voisen
Well, welcome back to Inside Personal Growth. This is Greg Voisen, host of Inside Personal Growth. And joining us from Solana Beach, California, which is literally only about three miles from where I am in Encinitas is Brian Tracy. Brian Tracy is the consummate speaker. He is the founder of Brian Tracy International and the author of how many books did you say, 93?
Brian Tracy
Now, 94.
Greg Voisen
94. So for all of you who are listening out there, you probably don't need an introduction to Brian, but I'm gonna give it to you. Anyway, Brian, good day to you. Thanks for being on the podcast show. And we're going to be talking about a brand new book, The 32 Unbreakable Laws of Money and Success. This is a Berrett Koehler book. And I told him that I found this book on my shelf because he has 92 So I only am 97 away goals which will be covered inside this interview that we're having with Brian today. But Brian, let me let the listeners know a tad about you for those who may not know who you are. He's the chairman and CEO of Brian Tracy international company specializes in training and development of individual organizations. Brian's gold, there we go is to help you achieve your personal and business goals faster and easier than you ever imagined. And that is his purpose as well, I can tell you, Brian has consulted more than 1000 companies and addressed more than 5 million people and 5000 talks and seminars throughout the US Canada and 70 other countries worldwide. As a keynote speaker and seminar leader he addresses more than a quarter million people each year. He's studied research written and spoken for 30 years in the field of economics, history, business, philosophy and psychology. He is a top selling author of over 94 books, which have been translated into dozens of languages. He's written and produced more than 30 audio and video learning programs, including worldwide best selling the psychology of achievement, which has been translated in more than 28 languages. He's traveled and worked over 107 countries and six continents and speaks in four languages. He's happily married, and has four children. And as I said, He resides in Solana Beach, California, one of the most beautiful spots in the world if I do say so myself. And so Brian, because we want to give the listeners as much as we can view and as little as possible of me. Why don't we? Why don't we start off with this change? Transformation is something that people can be very resilient to. And in the introduction, you emphasize the importance of changing the most important thing in one's life is their thinking. Can you share a pivotal moment when changing your thinking led to some consider considerable breakthrough for you, because we're talking about fundamentally changing people's thinking. That's how they get out of where they are, and move to someplace better?
Brian Tracy
Well, I've been studying successful my whole life. And one of the answers to that question is I always learned time management was a peripheral skill, like riding a bicycle or shooting with a bow and arrow was just something you did occasionally. And then I had this epiphany, this will eye opening discovery, that time management is central. It is the central skill of your life, that all of your life is the way you manage time. It's the most important single determinant of your success. So what I did is I began to study time, as a critical ingredient of success. And it changed my life forever. I began to plan my days, I began to use my time better, I began to read everything I could on it. I then I wrote a book called Eat That Frog 21 great ways to stop procrastinating and get more things done faster. The book sold 5 million copies in 55 languages, because it seems that everybody out there wants to learn how to manage their time and to get on with it to do the things that they need to do to be successful. That was my discovery, that without good time management, you have no chance. But with good time management, you could accomplish vastly more than the average person.
Greg Voisen
So what did you do Brian to get focus and not distraction. I mean, in the world in which we live today, you know, we're all we all have technology, we've social media, we've got every different way to kind of actually be with each other and connect with each other. But there's these distractions from us. getting done, what our main purpose and goal in life might be? What would you tell people about moving away from those distractions?
Brian Tracy
Well, the most important quality for success identified for more than 2000 years, is the quality of self discipline, is the amount of self discipline you have is largely going to determine the quality of your life in every area. And I always think of Nancy Reagan's campaign when she was the wife of the president, when there were a lot of problems with drugs in the schools. And she came up with this campaign called just say, no, just saying no, I'm I, I asked my kids about this. And they said, We just say no to drugs. And I laughed at that. And I said, Well, holy smokes, that's the key to self discipline. The key to self discipline is to just say no to low value tasks. If you plan a day, and you make an list of things that you have to do, and you ask the question, if I could only do one thing on this list, before I was called out of town for a month, what would be the most valuable thing that I could do for myself and my business? And that answer will jump out at you off the page, then what you do is you just say no to anything that is not that one thing that will contribute more to your life immediately than anything else. Successful people are people who have a reputation for just saying no to the irrelevant tasks and getting the job done. Someone wants that I love it, is it the best, the best ability and businesses depend ability is had the ability to say no to low value tasks and work single mindedly on your most important task until they're complete and not 95% Complete, which is what most people do if they get that far. And then they just take a break, and they'll finish it tomorrow. And you don't do it next week. It's called task completion. It's one of the things that I write about in the book. So
Greg Voisen
important, it means, you know, look you brought up if people just took that away from this podcast, they're taking away something important. And you know, this, this book is broken down into these 32 laws. And one of the laws is the law of causality. And you describe the law of causality as the foundation of reasoning and success. How can individuals that are out there listening today to this podcast with us, speaking with them, practically, practically apply this law to overcome any setbacks and achieve their goals?
Brian Tracy
Well, the law of causality was first adumbrated, if they say by Aristotle, in 350, BC at his academy outside of Athens, at a time when people believed in the gods on Mount Olympus, and miracles and, and all kinds of things. He said, No, he said, That's not possible. We live in a rule world governed by order. And therefore everything happens for a reason, our job to master our lives and our world is to find out the reasons for the things that we want to have and to accomplish, and then to duplicate those reasons and improve on them. So this is the law of causality we call the law, cause and effect we call the law of sowing and reaping is you get out what you put in and so on. It's the world is full of people, 80% of the population, God bless them, in our thinking that it's possible to put in one thing and get out something else is sort of like planting seeds in the garden. When you plant a seed, nature grows the seed. But you people that are planting weeds are nothing and expecting to get a wonderful crop. So the seeds you planted in your mind, the thoughts, the plants, the goals, the desires, the focus, and so on, I totally determine what happens to you in life. Now, I'm one of the things that I say if you want to be successful, and everybody who's listening to this wants to be financially successful, then what you do is you find financially successful people and you studied them, and you do what they did. And you'll find that successful people get up early, and they work harder, and they stay later. And they use their time well, and they don't make excuses. And they're continually learning. They're basically learning machines are constantly taking in new information. So they can do what they need to do better and faster. If you want to be successful, you just have the formula.
Greg Voisen
That is a good formula. Now, there is something about contribution and compensation. And I want to I want to say that, you know, we all make a contribution. The key is how much of a contribution do we make. So in this law of compensation, you suggest that we're compensated, however that might be intrinsically extrinsically. is in proportion to our contributions meaning what we give, what our value is that we bring to something? What strategies would you recommend for someone looking to increase their value and contributions in their professional life? Now, you said many of them just a second ago, study hard. Read, be curious, work harder, longer hours, those are all big contributions. Is there anything else you want to add to the list of being a better contribution?
Brian Tracy
Well, you have to understand that the number one word in your life is results, results results. People don't care about your talk and your good intentions. As they say, the road to hell is paved with good intentions. They care about your results. So let us imagine that you work for a company. Well, here's a simple strategy that just blows up like a slap in the face to me when I heard it, is write down the things that you think you're expected to do and take them to your boss, and staff, your boss, organize them by priority of these things that I do, which are the most important to you? In what order? And how will you measure that they are done? Well, for you. Please tell me so that I know exactly what to do to make you happy. You and I are in the in the happiness business. I remember Tony Shea who started Zappos and he said, we are in the happiness business. We just happen to sell shoes. Yeah, exactly. We're in the happiness business in that we are successful to the degree to which we make other people happy starting with our bosses. That's how you get promoted you in how do we make your boss happy, you by you getting results that help your boss to do his or her job better, then, when you are starting our own business. And the number one goal in our business is to make our customers and potential customers happy. And I have this idea of writing a book and I may read a quote the earth factor, er, the earth factor as you want. If you want to be successful in a competitive world, you have to make your customers happy, or you have to do you offer your service as fast or you have to do better or cheap, or it's always the earth factor. It's always a comparison between you and your competitor, you're always looking for ways to make people happy, or, and that's really the key.
Greg Voisen
I would agree with you on the earlier part. And the reason is, is because we're going to talk about control here in this next situation. And what I've always said, Brian, and I think you will resonate it, if you're looking for something outside of yourself to make you happy, you're looking in the wrong place. Happiness is an inside job once you fix the inside the outside fixes. So the reality is if you say Well, it's my spouse, or it's a new car, or it's more money, that's really not the thing that makes you happy. What makes you happy is the achievement of obtaining that thing, the journey to actually getting there. So let's talk about control. You mentioned that feelings of control. And I just had an author on from Canada that wrote a book called hardiness. And it's all about control and commitment. And he's a psychologist and the reality is, is it in the world we're living in today, it's crucial for happiness and success. We feel meaning I there's a lot of people out there that I think feel today that they can't predict the future that they're uncertain. And that feeling of not being in control is a bit scary. I would Splinter that to say what are some practical steps individuals can use to take control over their personal and professional lives from Brian Tracy to your lips and mine?
Brian Tracy
Well, the the number one goal again, going back to Aristotle, of all human beings is to be happy. And everything that we do is an attempt to be happy or than we were before nobody ever consciously does something to make them less happy. We always think that if we do this, it'll make us happy. Or and the number one obstacle to happiness is negative emotions. And negative emotions always come and I spent 4000 hours studying this over a period of years. It's that some some of the research on this is absolutely fab as the foundation of all of modern psychology. It's basically this is that negative emotions come from blaming. Negative emotions come from accusing or blaming someone or something else for things that you are unhappy with in your own life. The key is to summarize and get right cut right to the chase. The key to becoming happy is to say the magic words I am responsible, I am responsible. My friend Mark, Victor Hansen says that whenever you have a negative thought he said you should do cancel, cancel, and COVID go with an X, cross it out, and cancel, cancel, cancel, cancel. And the way that you cancel out negative thoughts is by simply saying, I am responsible, I am responsible. Now, the major reason for negative emotions is blame. And blame comes from accusing someone else being responsible for something in your life that you're not happy with. One of the great, one of the great rules of life Greg is never become upset about something you can't change, never become upset about something you can't change. And you cannot change a past event. And 80% of the population and and all the people who visited psychologists and therapists and coaches and counselors and everything else, are people who go there to talk about past events that they still haven't come to terms with, what you need to do is let it go, just let it go. Just say the words, I let it go. And you can have emotion, because there's nothing you can do about it. And once you let it go, that name Nate nature abhors a vacuum, even in emotions. So if you let go of your negative emotions, your mind fills with positive emotions, and you feel happy, and you feel powerful. And you just held up my book on goals. One of the things I another turning point in my life is I thought goals were a peripheral thing. But I found was that your ability to set and achieve goals are the center of your life. Without that you're basically taking orders from other people. So when you set goals, and you work on your goals, step by step, it makes you happy. It gives you a sense of power. It gives you a sense of empowerment, you feel energized. And of course we talked about the psychologist William Glasser, who talked about developing a positive addiction. Every time you make progress toward a goal that's important to you, you feel happy, it releases endorphins, and dopamine is it, it gives you strength that make and motivate you to do even more things. So you'll find that people who are working happily on things that are important to them and getting better and better at doing it or happy all this.
Greg Voisen
Well and the thing that you you emphasized here and not to be a broken record, but once you learn to take 100% responsibility for yourself and quit blaming others you mentioned that early and know that you are the one that is in you then realize you are in control. Right, that's these two go together, happiness in this. Now one of the things a lot of people look for and continue to look for. And for some people, it eludes them all their life. And for others, they have an ability for manifestation and attraction. And that is financial independence. So financial independence is a key goal for many people. Now there be some people that would write their goals, and maybe they're not so concerned about financial independence, or they're already financially independent. What initial steps do you suggest for someone starting the journey toward financial independence? And how would you advise them or help them, see how they can become more financially independent?
Brian Tracy
Well, when I was in my 30s, I still remember I was walking down the street and I'd always dreamed and fantasized about being a millionaire, but wanting to be a millionaire. I wasn't from the time I was a teenager. And here I was 3520 years of experience, and still living from paycheck to paycheck. And I realized, I talked about and thought about being a millionaire, but I had never made a decision to become a millionaire. And there's something about making a decision. It's like pushing down on a dynamite detonator, it goes, boom, in your subconscious and superconscious mind, and things start to happen in my book that you just held up. I have this phrase because things just happen. Things that you cannot predict that happen after you've made the decision. So first thing you do is you say I want to be become a self made millionaire. Well, the simplest of all ways is to save your money and invest it carefully and let it grow and accumulate until you money working is earning more than you are working. That's a that's the standard way of doing it. We now have 38 million Self Made Millionaires in America. Most of them get there by the age of about 50 to 54, according to the Wall Street Journal, and it's a result of somebody working hard, saving their money, invest in it carefully. Warren Buffett was once asked what's his secret to financial success? He said it's simply said I will invest In the American stock market, and depend on compound interest, and that's one of the laws we talk about compound interest. As Albert Einstein said, compound interest is the eighth power of the universe. It's the eighth wonder of the world, because it just causes money to grow and grow and grow. So anybody and I was giving a seminar and one of the young guys came up to me, he was obviously have problems. And he said to me, Mr. Mr. Tracy, Mr. Tracy, he said, he said, I, I'm a Bellman for a hotel, he said, Can I can I become a millionaire, too. And I didn't know what to say. And then he went on speaking, he said, I live in a group home, he said, and they invest $100 a month, from my income in a fund. If I do that, all the time I work well, I become a millionaire. But I just happen to have been working on compound interest tables. And I knew if you invested $100 a month, from the age of 21, to the age of 65, you and this compounded at the normal rate of the stock market, good years and bad years, it'd be worth more than a million dollars, this guy, this young guy, with nothing going for him is going to become a millionaire, because he's got good people advising him, and he's going to end up his life rich, when the great majority of people that retire with an average net worth of $41,000, this guy is going to be worth a million dollars. And why? Because he's dependent upon Steve's working, hard saving, and the miracle of compound interest. So everybody can do it, anybody can do it. Now, if you want to do it even better than what you do, as you become better at your work, so that you're paid more, and then you save more and more, you start off, maybe with 1%, then 2%, then 10%, then 20%. I know people who started off, when they were sat down with their mountain, their new wife, and they said, let's save 20% of our income. And by gum, they did. And in a few years, they started to become more and more financially independent. And by the time they're in their 40s, they're worth more than a million dollars.
Greg Voisen
It's it's it is you know, I love the the other day I happen to be listened to a podcast with Jordan Peterson, you might know who he is famous psychologist. And he was talking about the sacrifices we make with our contract to the future. So our contract with the future is whether it's with our employer, like this young man putting $100 in a 401 K plan or whatever it is, to say that's my contract with the future is to be able to be a millionaire or to have enough money to be financially independent, the sacrifices that I make or the sacrifices I make for that contract with the future, which is to work hard as a Bellman or to work hard and whatever it is that you're doing, because you are giving of your time for that contract in the future. Any comment about that? What do you think of that?
Brian Tracy
I think that's wonderful. One of the laws of success is called the law of futurity. And what it means is that successful people think about the future, most of the time, in my book, and in your review of it, we talk about you become what you think about most of the time, successful people think about the future. They think about what they're doing today, and what effect that will have on the future. But also they think about what other effect it will have, what will be the consequences, what will be the additional consequences, will they be good consequences or bad consequences, but they think about the future most of the time, it is the characteristic of leaders in every part of life is their future oriented. And so as as Jordan Peterson says, it's very, very important because when you're clear about the future, it makes it much easier to make the best decisions in the present. If you have no idea about your future, then you try this and that and you'll try this and you try that and and half the things won't work out. But we have a long, what I've done in my career is I fell in love with strategic planning. And it's a wonderful story. But basically, I did it for a billion dollar corporation. The first strategic plan I did was for a billion dollar multinational corporation, and they loved the program. How did I learn to do it as I bought all the books on strategic planning, and put together a synthesis of all the best ideas and then conducted a three day strategic planning program. And after that, I've done it for 1000 companies over the years, foundations and so on. What I found is that the premises are the same is that if you have a strategic plan at every one My client says, This has been the best three days in the history of this company. Well,
Greg Voisen
and I want to I want to make a point, you know, you have a workbook, I don't know if people can still get it your website, but I know I have it. That whole strategic thing. No, you said a billion dollar company, I don't care if you're $100,000. Company, you need a strategic plan. Part of the work that I do is I help people create strategic plans, just like you did for the big company. But I don't like discriminate against the size, I say, hey, no matter what you do, you need forecasts, you need predictions you need, you need to look at all the elements of your business to put it together. And you do a wonderful job of that. And this leads me to one of the laws and it's called the law of belief. Okay, now, we all run around with a lot of beliefs in our head, Brian, as you know, that doesn't mean that they're all founded, meaning they're proof of their true. Okay, beliefs, beliefs can change, I don't believe knowings change, you either have a knowing, or you have a belief. I know that if I talk to you long enough, you could probably change my belief about something because I trust you. I trust you as an individual, I trust your knowledge, how can individuals overcome, quote, self limiting beliefs that hinder their progress, because those are the ones that they're the beliefs that you need to replace with alternative beliefs. If you're carrying those self limiting beliefs?
Brian Tracy
Well, I'm a fanatic on goals, but especially on written goals. And you and I've had this debate and debated with others, they say, Well, I have my goals in my mind her I have my goals on my computers on what they have found. And this is the great word it's called a psycho neuro motor activity, which is writing your goals down, right? Present tense, and every person on every expert in this field says, Write the goals down by hand in the present tense. And do that over and over. And what happens is, when you write something down, it's accepted by the superconscious mind as an as a command. And at the beginning, it will say now, that's not possible, you can't do that you look at your past, you're coming from a poor background, and so on. But you just keep writing it down. Every day you write down your goals in the present tense, I teach people this 10 goal method is take out a spiral notebook, and write down 10 goals every morning without looking back at the previous day. And do this every day for a month. And every person who they were taught it to tracted has doubled and tripled their income within 30 days. They're just literally astonished at what happens in their whole life, they start to attract into the life people and circumstances and ideas and books. I've heard people say, you know, in the bookstore, then this book from yours, Tracy at the bottom shelf, you know, fell out on my foot. And I read the book, and I became one of the top salespeople in the country within 12 months. And if I hadn't been for that book, and that's what happens is you don't have to worry about what's going to happen. All you have to do is be clear. So that's a word that we teach. Well,
Greg Voisen
and I agree with you on this as well. And now while you're talking about attraction, right? I want to, you know, because there's a few misnomers, I believe that probably still exist about, hey, if I stick this, here, I'm going to attract it. Well, you can't attract anything without action. And as far as I'm concerned, you meaning you have to apply. You can write all these goals you want down on a piece of paper. But the reality is you need to work toward them. You need to take action toward them. Can you share a personal story, and I think you've got many where this law played a significant role in your own personal success. We're now talking about the law of attraction. Well,
Brian Tracy
I remember the first big breakthrough in my life, is I decided to get into real estate development. And I didn't know anything about real estate, you know, but I didn't even know if it had an E after the p or not. And so I went I began to read books. That's the one thing I've always had is a love of reading, and being able to read books on how you find property to develop and whether it's on the right side of the street to go home side, or the go to work side and, and communities that are growing. And I finally found a piece of property but I didn't have any money. And I met with the owners and they had a five acre critter Park, motorhome Park, and the city was growing up around them. And it was a perfect place for a shopping center because I know because I'd read the books. Well what happened was they turned me meet with their Lawyer, I still remember him. And he said, Look, he said, I'll draw up an agreement where you can buy this piece of property. I'll give you 30 days to close on it. And I said, I'll give you a check for $150 and $5 million piece of property.
Greg Voisen
He said, $150, he
Brian Tracy
said, I'll hold the check. I said, Please don't deposit it. Yes. And I remember him. He said, get them out of this, the property is too much for them. So I put together a complete proposal based on all my stuff. And I went around to real estate development companies, I finally found one that said, if everything you say is true, we'll come in with 75 100% of the money. And we'll take 75% of the shopping center, and you'll be responsible for completing it. And so I did, and I put them myself under their control. And I developed the shopping center, I built it, I got the architects and the engineers, and the construction companies, they paid all the bills. We built it, I leased out all the properties to the app. And it was 100%, full on the opening date. And the owner of the company is worth almost a billion dollars came to the opening. And he said afterwards, he said, Would you like to come and work for me. And he hired me as his personal assistant. And I worked for him for almost two years before he sold his business. And it was the greatest experience in my life, I develop 10s of millions of dollars worth of real estate with him. And under his tutelage, I imported $25 million worth of vehicles from Japan and sold them I built office buildings in some subdivision, it was the most incredible thing. And it all happened by just moving forward. Just keep moving forward, and stuff happens. That's the most wonderful well,
Greg Voisen
you you used your creativity and your knowledge. And if you didn't, here's the thing, if you didn't have the knowledge, you basically read a book or looked it up or found an answer, or found someone who knew the answer, but you kept searching. So you are constantly curious. And that leads me to this question. The law of superconscious activity. Now, we talked about our subconscious, we talk about our conscious, we talk about our unconscious, and then we're talking about super consciousness. And I remember you telling me when we I was at your house with this book, and you pointed out this law and how important it is, what techniques do you recommend for tapping into super consciousness to help one manifest their goals and their desires and their dreams?
Brian Tracy
Well, when I've discovered the superconscious, many years ago, 40 years ago, taking a special course in a distant town, near the river with a teacher, and he talked about the superconscious. And I never heard about it before. So I did a full court press on studying the superconscious. And what I found is everyone has this incredible mental power. An analogy that I use is imagine that you bought a house, and you moved into the house. And you didn't realize but Downstairs there was a basement, you found the door entry to the basement. And inside was this supercomputer that was connected to all of it. You turned the lights on, and there was an all you had to do is put in any question, problem, goal desire, activity, and this supercomputer would put everything together with track into your life, everything you needed to make it possible. Well, that's what each person has an every successful person, all original works of art, music, design, literature, all original works are super conscious works there. They came from something outside of themselves. People who are great writers and poets, they find themselves sort of under a trance, they just write it sort of what do they call it free writing or free flowing. But everyone has this superconscious ability and if I could only talk about one thing for the rest of my life, it would be about how you tap into it. And the critical thing is goals. When you have a very clear specific written goal. And what I tell people here's something very simple. Change your life forever guaranteed. Decide, imagine you have a magic wand and you could achieve any one goal in the whole world. Within I'll be insane like you can't fly with your flapping your arms and things like that. You can't be a billionaire in 25 minutes. I mean, don't be ridiculous. The goal has to be something that you believe that you believe is possible for you. So don't set goals that are impossible. Set a goal that you believe is possible, becoming a millionaire, good grief, we've got 40 million millionaires in America today, somebody becomes a millionaire every three minutes. So that obviously is achievable goal, then you say, make a list. And what I call the 20 Answer list is, what could I do to achieve this goal and write down 20? Answers? Now, not 10, and not 12? And not 15? It's got to be 20. Because very often, and I've done this with large classes, very often, it's the 20th answer that explodes your life, it's an answer you've never thought of before. And it changes your life completely. It changes you change your career, you change your relationship, you change your business, you change something. If you do this exercise, one thing, magic one, you can achieve any one goal, and write down 20 ways to achieve the goal. And then pick one of those ways and start working on it. And the one that did you start working on it'll jump out at you, it'll just jump out at you and start working on that. And your life will change forever. If you just did that. There's many everything else you do.
Greg Voisen
I love your analogy about the computer and turning on the lights in the basement, it gives you basically does that because today we live in this world of augmented reality, artificial intelligence and to a certain degree that is happening. And we can today more than ever achieve more in less time than we ever did before. Because of the things that are going on. I want to let my listeners know that the 32 unbreakable laws of money and success is a book you want to pick up. This is a Berrett Koehler book, we're gonna put a link on it to Amazon. So you'll actually have a link to that. I would also recommend to other books of Brian's one, get goals and get Eat That Frog. If there were three books, you wanted to change your life, if you didn't have any other three books do get this one. This is brand new, this is just coming out. And he actually is writing a revised edition of the goals book, which is going to be coming out pretty soon. I think he said September. Is that right? Yes. Yep. So you know, the reality is go to his website, the website for Brian is Brian tracy.com. There you can get you can see Brian Tracy International Contact, Meet the Team testimonials, all kinds of free resources. He's got courses, he's got all kinds of things. And if you sign up for his goals sheet, I know this because he and I were talking about it, you literally will get this 14 traits for setting these goals, Right Action Plan, and it comes to you for free. And I'm going to encourage you to go to those free resources and sign up for that. Because it is really good. And then take that and utilize it. And then he's got a course that goes along with it. And you'll be reminded in the course by the way, I if I remember correct was like $133 value for like $30 or something like that. It's about a third of the cost. If you're really in the position right now, and you want to change your life. And I know we're into may already five months most people say well, I set my goals in January. Well, they change as you go along. And they need to be relooked at and reevaluated all the time. And so I'd recommend Brian's course his book, Brian, it's been a pleasure having you on inside personal growth, any last words of wisdom you would like to leave to our listeners?
Brian Tracy
Well, it's something I've taught my children. And it's probably the most important piece of advice is that you can do it. Anything that you decide upon you can achieve. If it's within reason, you have more possibilities, you have more talent than you could use in 100 lifetimes. There are no limits on what you can accomplish except the limits you place on your own mind. And the way that you break those chains of limits, is you write down what you want clarity on a piece of paper, and then make a list of the things that you could think of to do right now. And then take action just like you said, nothing happens until something moves, nothing happens to take action. But if you will take action, it will trigger more action and more action. it'll activate the law of attraction. it'll activate the law superconscious abilities. And what can happen to you is literally phenomenal. And I know because I've spoken to countless people all over the world. And they say when you start to tap into your own mental powers, the things you can accomplish are beyond your imagination.
Greg Voisen
Well, you certainly not only live what you speak about because you're a testament to it and For all those people, if you just look at the body of work that Brian Tracy has created over the years that he's been on this planet, a huge contribution to helping people find a way to achieve their goals with less effort. And also at the same time, with more success. And, Brian, my hat goes off to you to everything that you've done, the contributions you've made in the world and what you're doing to all the courses you've created, the books you've written, and the millions of people that you've talked to from stages, live to actually inspire them to do this, again, do go out and get this book. This is Brian's got the sometimes these limited time offers. And one of them is on that goal thing when you go to his website. You don't have a long time to do it for the reduced price. So take advantage of that. Brian, thanks for being on inside personal growth. It's always a pleasure speaking with you, and having you back on the show. It was way too long. The last time I had him on the show was podcast number. I think it was 87 If I'm not mistaken. And I'm now at podcast 11 117. So we waited way too long in between it's going to be more frequent that we have Brian back as a guest. So, thanks Brian.
Brian Tracy
Thank you, Greg. You are doing great work in the world, my friend.
Greg Voisen
Thank you.
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Inside Personal Growth with Greg Voisen · Podcast 1125: Hardiness with Dr. Steven SteinToday, I’m thrilled to introduce Dr. Steven Stein, a world-renowned clinical psychologist and co-author of the book “Hardiness: Making Stress Work for You to Achieve Your Life Goals.” Dr. Stein has a rich background, from founding Multi Health Systems to consulting for high-profile clients like the Canadian Forces and reality TV shows. But today, we’re focusing on the concept of hardiness.
Understanding Hardiness
Hardiness is about transforming stress into a tool for achieving life goals. Dr. Stein explains that hardiness is built on the “Three C’s”: Commitment, Challenge, and Control.
- Commitment: Commitment involves having a purpose and direction in life. It’s about engaging with something bigger than yourself, whether it’s a mission, a cause, or a long-term goal. For elite athletes, this might mean sacrificing social life for practice and training, all in pursuit of a championship.
- Challenge: Challenges should be seen as puzzles to solve rather than threats. By shifting your mindset, you can view stressors as opportunities for growth and learning. This reframing helps you tackle problems with a proactive attitude, finding solutions instead of feeling overwhelmed.
- Control: Control is about focusing on what you can change. Instead of blaming external factors, look inward and identify areas where you have influence. Taking charge of these aspects can significantly reduce feelings of helplessness and stress.
Practical Strategies for Hardiness
To cultivate hardiness, Dr. Stein suggests several strategies:
- Daily Goals: Set a small goal each day and take a moment to reflect on your progress. This practice not only boosts productivity but also enhances overall happiness and success.
- Visualization: Like the tennis player Bianca Andreescu, who visualized winning the US Open, use visualization to reinforce your commitment. Picture yourself achieving your goals to stay motivated.
- Seek Guidance: Sometimes, reprogramming your mindset requires help. An understanding coach or therapist can guide you through overcoming obstacles and avoiding repetitive mistakes.
Conclusion
Hardiness isn’t just about enduring stress; it’s about harnessing it to propel yourself towards your goals. By embracing commitment, viewing challenges positively, and focusing on what you can control, you can transform stress into a powerful ally on your path to success.
For more insights from Dr. Steven Stein and to learn about his book, visit stevenstein.com.
You may also refer to the transcripts below for the full transciption (not edited) of the interview.
Interview Transcipt -Not EditedEmailDownloadNew TabGreg Voisen
Well, welcome back to Inside Personal Growth. This is Greg Voisen, the host of Inside Personal Growth. And Dr. Stein, everybody knows me but the reality is they don't know you. But the gentleman with, I'm gonna say, the great haircut and the mustache on the other side here of this video is actually Dr. Steven Stein. And he's joining us from Toronto. Good day to you.
Dr. Steven Stein
Good day to you, it's nice to be with you, Greg.
Greg Voisen
Well, it's a pleasure having you on and we are going to be speaking about a topic that's near and dear to his heart called Hardiness. And the subtitle is always what people buy books off of "Making Stress Work for You to Achieve Your Life Goals. This is a widely book to learn more about Dr. Stein and his work. He also has a co-author on this book is Pau Bartone. Is it bear? Oh, yeah. And the website is Steven, stevenstein.com. There you can learn more about Steven. His books, his media's contact, you can get in touch with him. I'm gonna let the listeners know a tad bit about Steven before we get started into investigating and going deeper into the book. He's a world-renowned clinical psychologist International Best Selling Author and sought after speaker and Founder and Executive Chair of the multi health systems MHS, a publisher of scientifically validated assessments over 40 years, which have been named the three time winner of the profit 100 fastest growing companies in Canada, one of Canada's best managed companies since 2013. And Canada's 10 Most Admired corporate cultures to work for. He's a leading expert on psychology assessment and emotional intelligence and has consulted with the military the government agencies including Canadian Forces, US Air Force, Army, Navy, special units, the Pentagon, FBI, and the list goes on. Dr. Stein consults with numerous reality TV shows, including Big Brother, Canada, The Amazing Race Canada, Master Chef Canada, Bachelor Canada that must be a cool one. Real Housewives of Toronto, I didn't know there was such a thing. Bachelor in Paradise and blown away. So what do they utilize a Dr. Stein's gifts for, they want to find out if they can get the best guests on their shows possible. There's actually a gentleman here in Del Mar, California. Richard, somebody is his name. He's world renowned for actually profiling the people that appear on those shows. That sounds like interesting work. Do you enjoy it?
Dr. Steven Stein
Yes. It's a lot of fun. That's great work.
Greg Voisen
Yeah, I bet it is. I bet it is. Well, look, you know, you've done a lot of studies, you're a psychologist, you spent years studying and then coming up with these assessment? What inspired you to write hardiness, making stress work for you to achieve your goals? And what do you hope that the readers out here are going to take away from it? I made a note to you earlier, when people hear stress, it's almost like they want to run the other direction. But the question is, certain stressors can be good for us.
Dr. Steven Stein
Right? Well, what made me get into this is kind of a long standing mission. I've had, you know, I started my career as a traditional clinical psychologist and transformed into the business world. But early on, you know, a lot of my time was spent looking at people that had serious problems and issues. I worked with kids and families, you know, where there's ADHD, and depression and anxiety. And at some point, I decided, you know, it's time to look at what's right with people, and not just what's wrong with people, instead of fixing people seeing what allows people to succeed in life and make them successful. And that led me into the area of emotional intelligence. And from there, I moved into the area of hardiness. And one of the things that really inspired me to move in this area is my coauthor, Paul Bartone. He was a senior psychologist in the US Army, but also did work research and taught at West Point. And he's a retired colonel, but he had done about 20 years of research in this topic, showing how important it was for everything from leadership to dealing with health issues. And you know, a lot of his research was confined to sort of military journals and research journals. And I said, Paul, we got to get this out into the real world. We got to get this out or the other world into the business world and to everyday people. And that's where we joined on this mission together to write the book and make it more accessible to people.
Greg Voisen
Well, I'm glad you did because you know, this is a topic and I can see why they picked up on it when you sent them your book If they saw this as a good fit for the business world, obviously because widely kind of caters to the business world, that is who they are. Can you explain the concept of hardiness? I know when we people hear the word they're like hardiness, why know what that is I'm, I'm great, I can withstand anything resilient, and how it differs from other approaches to stress management. Sure.
Dr. Steven Stein
So, so hardiness is really based on what we call the three C's. And again, that's based on a lot of years of research looking into this and, and looking at what differentiates people who deal well with stress versus those who don't deal so well with it. So the first C we look at is what we call commitment. And what that means is having a purpose in life, having a direction having some of a bigger picture something outside of yourself that you see as important in your life. So for some people, you know, it could be religion, for others, it could be sort of a political mission. For others, it could be working for the environment, or something that's bigger than yourself. So commitment is really important.
Greg Voisen
Can I ask you throw in a question here, because you're Go ahead, in commitment. You know, for a lot of people, they look at that word, and it brings up like, long term commitment to something right, um, committing to something, a marriage or raising a child or doing whatever it might be. And then in the, on the flip side of that coin, is just how they wanted to solve being thriving, thriving and being alive and being having this freedom to kind of move around. Because sometimes when you hear that word commitment, you're also thinking about well, do am I going to lose some of my own freedoms in the process of this? Am I going to lose other sides of me that I'm giving up? And I remember this statement, because you and I talked about this. Dr. Jordan, who you used to work with, talks about this process in his in one of his podcasts that I was listening to, is our contract with the future. And what we actually give up now for the contract in the future, and that is a big commitment. Right? That's like, Okay, I'm gonna sacrifice something here in the now, for this contract with the future. Can you maybe give us a little bit of, you know, a dialogue about that, because I've actually been thinking a lot about that. And I'm going to be 70 in July. So I look at it and I go, man, what have I actually given up? To get?
Dr. Steven Stein
Yeah, and that's gonna vary, you know, one of the one of the groups we deal with are elite athletes. And for them to reach their goal, their dream of winning a major championship, for example. It involves making certain sacrifices in their life, they may give up parts of their social life, they may do, you know, just other things, they may sacrifice in terms of that big goal. Now, we're not asking everybody to make those huge sacrifices. But I think part of part of the commitment that sort of contract with the future is to is to decide you know, what you really want in life, what's really important for you, and what are you willing to do to get there, right? And, and there may be things that we give up along the way, there may be certain vices or other things that will interfere with that goal. And what we find is that people who are able to sort of stay on that line stay, working towards that commitment, managed to deal better with difficult situations in their lives.
Greg Voisen
Well, what practical strategies can individuals use to develop and strengthen the sense of commitment when facing stressful situations? Well, we
Dr. Steven Stein
usually try and back up and prepare for it before you actually reach a stressful situation. So if you take a look now at your life, and you try and identify what are the things that are really important to you, to your future? What are the things that you really believe in? You know, again, identify Is it is it your religion, your commitment to God? Is it politically you want to make certain changes in the organization or in your community, something that you really want to commit to? And then we get people to outline aspects of their lives, their family, their work, their social life, and to rank order those things into, you know, what is most important and what is sort of less important what
Greg Voisen
what do you do to help people who go to the space of burnout to literally prevent that because in today's society, we're seeing so much of this loneliness, burnout, stress as a result of it And and then I find just a level of kind of complacency that it's almost like they've zoned out. They're just being thrown so much. And now we're talking about a big word, a commitment. It's like, okay, I see the three C's, which we're going to talk about all of them, by the way, folks. But, you know, the reason I'm throwing these questions in is because the listeners out there today, including myself, we find ourselves saying, Oh, wow, this is I'm almost an overload. I am almost to this point of burnout. How much more can I really take? What practical advice would you have? Because that is a stressful situation?
Dr. Steven Stein
Well, there's a couple things in there and involves more than one of the C's. So what is commitment, which is knowing what is my bigger picture in life right now and being overwhelmed with things everybody wants my time, everybody wants me to do things. So the second C that we talked about is challenge. So if I can step back and look at those things, and look at them differently, look at all those stresses as maybe a puzzle or something to solve. If I said to a friend of mine, I'm overwhelmed. I got all these things on my plate, I can't I can't cope with it. What would you do? What would your friend advise you? And usually, your friend would advise you to sort of back off some things, what's your don't do list? What are the things that you don't have to do and you can step away from, and then allow you to focus more on the things that are really important to you, and the things you're excited about or interested in or really want to do. So it's really a matter of a mindset and refocusing your priorities.
Greg Voisen
I get it. And, you know, what we all deal with is, I'm gonna call it this balancing act, balancing work life, right? Balancing the The To Do lists that everybody has the things that they'd like to accomplish, and then having a larger, more vision and a goal to try and reach something greater. And you say control is another key component of hardiness. And when you get burnt out, it's almost like you feel like you're out of control. How does the perception of control influence our response to stress? And what techniques can you help to enhance the sense sense of control? Because when you go to burnout, or you go to this level of just complacency where it's like, you're just like an inertia, you just don't want to do anything, right? It is a state of AI, it's a mental state. In many cases of depression. There's a sense of depression associated with that, because you lose your aim, you lose your goal, you lose your commitment, you lose a lot of things. What can you help people with by giving them some ideas here about keeping this sense of control?
Dr. Steven Stein
Okay, well, the first week, we sort of backed up a bit to commitment. So if you are sort of in that depressed state, what we would do is try and find something that you do care about something that motivates you. And it may have been something you haven't done, since you were a kid, you know, like, I looked back and found music, that I love playing a musical instrument, and that sort of changed my view when it comes to control, then the issue becomes, well, what can I do in this situation? What do I have control over versus what I don't have control over? I don't want to waste my time, sort of doing things or expending it on things I have no control over, you know, you know, I blame other people or I blame the boss, or I blame my workplace for, for getting in my way. That's not helpful. What I'd rather do is focus on what can I do myself to change the situation? What can I do to redirect where I'm going? So stop blaming the environment, stop blaming those people around you, as difficult as they may be? And look inward? And say, what are the levers that I have some control over and then I can manage?
Greg Voisen
That's good advice. Because, you know, when you get into that state, sometimes you don't look for that. You're saying things are out of control, or if they are out of control, I don't know how to get them back in control. And I think once you find one thing you can control, right, that you realize what it is. It's it's the first tee up right on the first hole of the golf course to, you know, make it out and say, Hey, I'm gonna go get the ball in the hole kind of thing. If you understand the analogy there. Can you provide some examples of how individuals can shift their mindset in views stressful situation. So as challenges rather than threats? I think in the prior case, its threats. In the case where I have a goal or an aim or I'm committed. It's really not a threat. It's a challenge. Exactly.
Dr. Steven Stein
So In terms of challenges, again, it's the mindset, it's the way we view things. It's, it's how we approach the situation. So we step back, and instead of getting all emotionally involved in all the stuff that's happening to you, it's kind of looking at it a little bit more objectively and saying, What can I do here? How can I solve this puzzle? And treating it more as a puzzle to be solved? And what are the levers that I can control? To do that maybe I have to avoid certain people, maybe I have to change my daily routine. Maybe I have to find somewhere else to work. But you know, looking at it objectively and taking charge of yourself, and making those changes is really important.
Greg Voisen
And do you have any particular stories that you can relate to us of people that you've either counseled or situations that you've seen, where they've actually been able to shift the mindset, and come from these three C's successfully, where they maybe weren't?
Dr. Steven Stein
Yeah, we have a number of stories in the book. And one of them that I really like is a story of Bianca Andre Sue, who was a tennis player. And when she was around 12, or 13 years old, she really had this image of winning the US Open. Now, that's a pretty big goal for a lot of people. But she visualized it and she got to visualize it so well, she actually imagined herself receiving the winner's cheque, you know, being there. Right in the in the stadium and winning against major tennis players. Well, visualization was was really helpful in terms of getting that commitment to staying on path. Because playing tennis being a professional athlete requires a lot of sacrifices, though, as we said earlier, giving up your social life, to practice every day and to do these routines and to get better. So so that was part of the commitment part that you had a goal and something a dream that you work towards, in terms of the challenge, she had to meet challenges all along the way. For example, not going to parties with her friends, because she had to practice and all sorts of things that she had to go through in order to keep this dream alive. And the final was control. And when you're an athlete, you can control all the elements. And I guess the, the one that, that I sort of talked about in the book, when she ended up at the US Open, and in the finals, she ended up playing Serena Williams. I mean, that's awesome, right. But what happened was, the crowd didn't like her, the New York round, didn't want a Canadian to win the US Open. And they booed so loud, she could hardly hear yourself think. But in that time, she took control. She said, I can't control the bluing of the crowd. But I can control the way I serve at all the practicing. I've done the mental practice, the physical track practice. And she did it she beat Serena Williams to win the US Open by that sense of control that commitment and the use of challenge to overcome obstacles.
Greg Voisen
That is a great story. It really is a great story. And I'm glad you told it because it you know, it puts a context around what somebody can do, especially all that booing, you know, the subconscious mind, which is something that very few people, I think, think about on a regular basis is a lot of places where this gets reprogrammed, right, where we can actually reprogram, what advice do you have for people and wanting to kind of albeit using a hypnotherapist or something else to actually delve into reprogramming the subconscious mind because there's so much there that's making the ability to get this done, hazy, and ineffective. Right. And who knows, it could be things from our past, it could be experiences that we've had. And being a clinical psychologist, I thought this would be a perfect question for you about how to actually take these three C's and utilize them into pro reprogramming the subconscious mind. Yeah,
Dr. Steven Stein
well reprogramming your mind is a challenge, right? It's not an easy thing. So often, we need a guide, coach, someone who can help get in there and find out what's holding us back. Why why do we keep making bad choices in life? Why do we not get away from the people that are toxic to us? So it's often helpful to have a really understanding outside person who knows these things and can help you reprogram yourself, to find purpose and to overcome challenges. And to understand what it is you can control and to stop you from the same circular mistakes that you've been making in the past.
Greg Voisen
Yeah, very good advice. Because I mean, I think many people during the course of their years on this planet, spend a lot of time trying to get clear about the things you're talking about this commitment this control the three C's, but it for some reason It's hazed out, you know, you, you use the example of affirmations of being able to visualize and create the dream for the future. I know sometimes it's almost like when you try and think about it, many listeners out there, and there have been times for me as well, where you just can't come up with anything. You're just like, it's like a block you following what I'm saying? Absolutely. And like you can't access it, because you're so busy doing the day to day stuff that you have to do to just get it. And you say, well take time for this. And they go, Well, where am I going to find the time to really do that, right, because they've gotten into a grind. Where
Dr. Steven Stein
there are small things you do. And we're not talking about huge time commitments with some of this. One exercise that we do with people, which is kind of helpful is to try and then set a goal for each day, something you want to accomplish each day. And at a set time each day, let's say three o'clock or four o'clock, you take five minutes, and you think about, you know, how do I feel about today was I able to make any movement towards completing that goal. And you know, there's some really interesting research finding that people who are able to do that and find something positive each day will be much more productive will be happier with their lives, and ultimately more successful with the goals that they want to achieve.
Greg Voisen
Yeah, you know, you I'm looking behind on your bookshelf there. And you wrote this book on emotional intelligence. And I think that it's the it was the dummies book for emotional intelligence that I have it here. You know, there's been so much said about that in the workplace. And I want to talk to you about the principles of hardiness, being applied in the workplace, to kind of improve performance and well being. And if you would, add in a sprinkle around us being able to use our emotional intelligence more effectively to do that, because the more intelligent emotionally intelligent we are, the more relatable we are and the ability to communicate with others, and others do communicate with us. I mean, Goldman's work on emotional intelligence was really groundbreaking, right? I mean, everybody knows Daniel Goleman, and his work on emotional intelligence. So if you would hardiness in the workplace, how does it work? How can we make it work in comment, if you would, on emotional intelligence tools prove that. So
Dr. Steven Stein
here's the way I like to think of it as kind of strategic and tactical. So the hardiness is the strategic aspect of your life, your commitment, your control your goal, your ability, it's like your personality, or as you were talking about your subconscious, your deep down beliefs of where you want to go. And once you've got that established, that's going to help you set direction, for example, you're going to know that the work you're doing is the work that you really want to be doing, you're not doing some job, just because you need the money or because you couldn't find another job, you're going to know where you want to be in your life where you want to set your path. Emotional Intelligence is kind of the technical part, these are the skills you need to get ahead. These are the skills of being good with people, the interpersonal skills, being able to understand your emotions and manage those emotions. They really are the sort of the topping the icing on the cake that really helps you become more successful at work. And we spent a lot of years researching emotional intelligence. And now, people who are strong and that are more successful in many ways in terms of their career. They're better liked, leaders get more done, their teams are, are more responsive to them. There's so much more we can accomplish if we use these emotional intelligence skills.
Greg Voisen
Yeah. So Dr. Stein, when you get a room of computer programmers together, and you have to teach emotional intelligence, how do you start out? Well, one
Dr. Steven Stein
of the things we like to do is use an assessment, because they're very, they're very logical and rational, and they don't acknowledge emotions. So we developed a tool called the EQI, 2.0, the emotional quotient 2.0. That gives them really hard data on how they compare to 1000s of other people out there. And we can compare them to other computer programmers or to accountants or lawyers, or to salespeople who are much higher in these skills. And once they see that in front of them on paper, then it resonates to them, because that's what they react to right numbers, logic, rationality, and you can say, you know, it shows here, that your empathy is really low. How do you feel about that? What do you think about that? And they may say something, well, what the heck do I need empathy forums in front of a computer all day? Well, then we got to show them how other parts of their lives are important. Their ability to sell ideas to their to their co workers their ability to, to work with their boss, their ability to have a family life and deal with their kids. So we show that these skills are important in all aspects of their lives, and the fact that they can develop them if they really want to.
Greg Voisen
It's really good comment, I appreciate that. Now, we've heard about EQ, IQ IQ. And I've recently come across si spiritual intelligence. Do you believe there's a realm of spiritual intelligence that we have that we carry around and bring to the workplace that can make it a better place for us to work? If we bring that to work? There's actually a woman that I recently had on the podcast, talking about spiritual intelligence. Well,
Dr. Steven Stein
you know, it's a newer concept. And it sounds interesting. I haven't seen the data on it yet, but I'm sure it's something that we should explore that you know, people who are more spiritual, and it gets kind of to the area of commitment that I was talking about, it's a belief in something that you feel can be beneficial to you and take you to the next level. Yeah,
Greg Voisen
it her work is interesting is very deep. It's a Cindy Wadsworth, I think it is I can get you the information. But I spent a lot of time on how spiritual intelligence overall can help us be better at our own emotional intelligence as well, too. So what role does resiliency play in the concept of hardiness? And how can individuals build resilience because it's really psychologically when you look at stress, usually what's being spoken about, and I helped a company who created the wellness app for Mayo Clinic. And the doctor, the doctor, the psychologists, that was work was really there was a whole module on resiliency. And frequently, they're teaching resiliency in corporate America, they're not talking about hardiness, let's face it, there's, they're saying, hey, you need to become more resilient. Here's how you become resilient. This is what you do, whether it's through meditation, whether it's through mindfulness, whether it's through all these various practices that are being accepted. And Mayo Clinic is teaching, you know, meditation in the workplace through the app.
Dr. Steven Stein
I agree. And and, you know, resilience is important, but it's slightly different from hardiness. So resilience is about going through a stressful time or difficult situation, and coming back to where you were before. So it's kind of even in you up to where we started from. Whereas hardiness we see it as getting even stronger than you were before the stress hit you. It's almost like post post traumatic growth, some people talk about, where if you learn these skills in that situation, you become stronger, you learn how to challenge and you learn how to control things, you can control, your increase your commitment, that makes you even stronger, it's like going to the gym and exercising and building your muscles. And that's a big differentiator, you know, a lot of the resilience training, which is really good, but a lot of it is kind of avoiding the stress sort of relaxing and pretending it's not there, or learning how to control your, you know, your your reaction to some degree. Here, we're actually taking facing the stress head on and using it as a challenge and seeing how do I overcome this, I'm not running away from the stress, I'm managing the stress and trying to get stronger as a result of the stress. So that's a bit of the difference.
Greg Voisen
There's another third try, I think, not in defense of mayo clinic, or meditation or any of this, it's like, it's just a fact, I think the tools that were given to become more resilient. It's like I'm building my muscle, right to have to learn how to deal with this. Whatever muscle it's really the mental muscle to deal with this. Versus and when I look at the word resilience, and I look at the word hardiness, I get that what you're trying to do is uplevel people to say, hey, look, it's this is a this is a ability to go up a stair step to go up to go up to go up to become more and more hardy, under this meaning thrive in these environments. versus using techniques that we would do, what would be to the techniques that you would say, can help me become more hardy on these three C's. I know I get it that it's the three C's fundamentally. But what would you tell people to practice in the workplace to thrive, beam hardier, and have much more and I'm just going to throw this in again, emotional intelligence, because if you have good emotional intelligence, really, this, all of this hardiness can come along with it. There's no mistake that you wrote a book on emotional intelligence, and another one on hardiness there. Zero mistake there.
Dr. Steven Stein
Yeah, they're all going in the same direction, no question about it. So what are the techniques you would use right away? Well, one I like to use is visualization. I think that's really important. The ability to see yourself where you want to be to think, maybe 10 years ahead and see where would I want to be? And to break that down into different aspects of your life? Where do I want to be in terms of my working workplace? Where do I want to be in terms of my family? Where do I want to be in terms of my social life? What about in terms of fitness and exercise? Where do I want to be? So we would get people to sort of visualize that future down the road, their ideal life, their ideal self, and then we start working backwards. So then we work back to five years and then to one year, and then we come back into month by month and and then we work our way down to almost a weekly or daily activity, what can lead us towards those goals? How can we get there? So so that would be one sort of a technique that we would use with people to help them
Greg Voisen
so you're, you're forecasting to the future, we talked about this future note that we had with the future, and then you're regressively, kind of going back to the year, the month, the day, and then the hour, right? Like, hey, you know, hey, this is what I need to be doing during the day to actually strive toward this particular outcome that contract with the future or whatever it might be that you want to call it. Yeah. Yes.
Dr. Steven Stein
And when you talk about work life balance earlier, and the fact that we're overwhelmed by all these things, this helps you make those decisions. So it's not so much a matter of work life balance, it's like, how do I do What what goes towards my goal? How do I do the thing that matters most to me? If
Greg Voisen
I were being we're being pardon me for interrupting, but I think because of so just because of technology, we're frequently being derailed, because we don't know how to put that stuff down. And that takes people off track, right? It really does. It takes people out. You ask people well, how much time he is spending on social media, how much time he's spending on just answering emails, or how much time you doing? But then you ask him, well, how much time are you actually spending in contemplation or creativity or the amount of time you spend doing that? And I think you'll find a decrease, which is why these corporations are attempting to provide opportunities for people to become more creative. I know that at my son's work, Adobe, they want creative people. So they say, Hey, work from home, take time off, go surfing, go do what you need to do, do the things that are enjoyable, because you need the release. And they understand the psychology of this, of the endorphins and of the oxytocin's and of the things into your system. I'm getting a little more technical than we were gonna get. But the point is, is that you get these highs, and these highs have to come. And they don't hardly ever come from surfing social media or answering emails.
Dr. Steven Stein
Right, exactly right. And you know, if you look at the research of Jonathan Hite who looks at, you know, the effect of cell phones, on kids in school, it's exactly what you're saying. It's distracting. It's taking us away from where we want to be or what we want to learn. So that's a big part of what we have to do exactly what you're saying, take time away from the technology, and focus on what things are more important for us to be more creative, to be happier in our lives, and to pursue the goals that are really meaningful to us. Yeah,
Greg Voisen
it's it's a detox from one to an infusion in the other meaning detoxing from the social media and the phone and the iPad and whatever else it is, and the infusion of some activity that brings those oxy toxins in there that brings the higher levels of chemical release into our system that usually are related to higher levels of creativity, abilities to take greater risk. Because that is part of it. You have to be willing to kind of do some risk taking here along the way.
Dr. Steven Stein
When we come to the end of our life, I don't think we're any of us are going to say, Gee, I wish I answered more emails when I was younger.
Greg Voisen
Right? No, we're not. You're absolutely right. Because when you start to look at your finitude and I think the older we get, the more we understand, you know, all of us is not getting out we're none of us are getting out of here alive. And the reality is there is a day when we will take our last breath. And this is not being trying to be morbid or anything, but it's true. It's just a fact of life. And if if my listeners can take your three principles of commitment control win challenge. And take those three and insert them in to create a resilient, I'm just going to use the word resilient mindset, but call it a hardy mindset, the hardiness mindset. And to help them get to this longer term goal that contract with the future. There's going to be let's talk about it now. Because all these three that you talked about commitment, control and challenge, how do your studies tell me that the amount of joy and happiness that utilizing those techniques actually brings to me as a result of that and me becoming hardier
Dr. Steven Stein
a lot of the work we've done is, again, comparing different groups of people, right? People who are happier in a certain occupational group versus those who are less happy people are performing better, versus versus those who don't. So it's really been a matter of comparing groups. So the next stage is really putting people through that transformation. And there's some work on that in the coaching world, where people who have been coached, and hardiness was seen as a factor, when when their coach, they're starting off from a higher level of hardiness, they're much more successful in achieving their goals. And they found that that was a more important factor than their relationship. A lot of times in both therapy and coaching, we talk about the importance of the relationship between you and your coach or you and your therapist. But this study that looked at a number, a large sample of people found that being at a proper level of hardiness was more important than even the relationship that you had with your coach. So you can learn these skills and see direct improvements as a result of it. And the studies we have some reported in the book, do look at I know one where we did, someone outside group wasn't us looked at emotional intelligence had two groups, one with coaching and one without, and they used one of my books as part of that, that journey that the people went through, found significant changes, comparing the treatment group with a control group.
Greg Voisen
Well, you've given my listeners a lot to think about today. And I want to thank you for being on inside personal growth. And for all my listeners, we're going to put a link to this book. And it's Steven stein.com ste ve N Ste i n.com. So in wrapping this up, is there anything that you'd like to leave our listeners with Dr. Stein? Regarding this commitment, control and challenge the three C's? Which are the component parts have hardiness inside of your book? And if so, are there places where they can go if they're, they feel lost? You know, it's like, okay, I want to go to Stephens website, I can take an assessment, is there a tool that I can take of yours, that would actually tell me where I fit on the spectrum of these things? Right. Right, there
Dr. Steven Stein
actually is a tool called the hardiness resilient gauge. Now, it's usually administered by someone who's trained or professional in it. But if you come to the website, I'm sure we could refer you to people or if you want to be trained in it, there's an opportunity for you if that's, you know, the area of work that you're involved in. So yeah, there definitely is a way to compare yourself to 1000s of other people who've looked at how they score in those three C's, and what areas are most most important for them to develop as well.
Greg Voisen
Well, I figured you had an assessment. So I wanted to let my listeners know that there was an assessment out there. And it's the hardiness, resilience,
Dr. Steven Stein
gauge, the hardiness, resilience gauge HRV. All right.
Greg Voisen
And so if you're interested listeners, go to his website, contact him. They can put you in touch with somebody who administers those those tests, because they obviously distribute those tests out to people that are using them inside the workplace. Correct. Oh, am
Dr. Steven Stein
I right? Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Well,
Greg Voisen
again, thanks for being on inside personal growth. Thanks for taking the time with us, Dr. Stein. It's always a pleasure having somebody speak about a topic that I believe nobody has really heard about hardiness, they have heard about resilience. They have heard about emotional intelligence from Daniel Goleman. And I would put a plug in go get his book on emotional intelligence. We have that one as well. I think I'm gonna hold it up because it's right here. Is this one, emotional intelligence for dummies? We did speak a little bit about it. But if you're new to emotional intelligence, or you really want what I would call a very comprehensive viewpoint, you're probably better off going to this one then you would be starting off with Daniel Goldman's book so you Nothing against Daniel Goleman at all. But this one here is what I would call the basics of emotional intelligence. Right?
Dr. Steven Stein
Absolutely a lot easier to read.
Greg Voisen
Yeah. Well, thanks so much for being on the show. You have a wonderful afternoon.
Dr. Steven Stein
Thanks so much for having me, Greg, and fun being with you.
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Inside Personal Growth with Greg Voisen · Podcast 1124: Unlocking the Future of Note-Taking with Reflect App with Sam ClaassenIn a recent interview, Sam Claassen, Chief Growth Officer of Reflect App, shared insights on the evolution and philosophy behind this innovative note-taking tool. Reflect, founded by Alex McCaw, aims to provide a minimalistic yet powerful solution for capturing and organizing information seamlessly.
The Core Philosophy
Reflect’s design prioritizes three main values: security, stability, and performance. Claassen emphasized that security is paramount, with end-to-end encryption and regular audits ensuring user data remains protected. Stability follows closely, ensuring users’ notes are always accessible and safe from loss. Lastly, performance focuses on delivering a fast and efficient user experience.
The Unique Approach
Reflect distinguishes itself with a network note-taking model, relying on backlinks instead of traditional folders. This system allows for more flexible and dynamic organization of information. For example, instead of sorting contacts into folders, users can create backlinks that interconnect related notes effortlessly. This method reduces the organizational overhead and makes information retrieval more intuitive and efficient.
The Role of AI
Claassen highlighted the crucial role AI plays in enhancing the Reflect App. Although the current AI tools utilize OpenAI’s GPT-4, future developments aim to incorporate locally hosted AI solutions, providing even more secure and personalized experiences. This advancement will enable users to interact with their notes in unprecedented ways, enhancing productivity and knowledge management.
The Future of Reflect
Looking ahead, Reflect plans to maintain its commitment to minimalism while continuously improving its frictionless note-taking experience. Claassen believes that as AI becomes more integrated into our daily lives, those who have systematically captured and organized their knowledge will have a significant advantage. Reflect aims to be at the forefront of this transformation, helping users harness the full potential of their information.
For those interested in exploring Reflect, the app offers a 14-day free trial, allowing users to experience its unique features and decide if it fits their needs. By prioritizing user-friendly design and robust security, Reflect is poised to redefine how we capture, organize, and utilize information in the digital age. For more insights from Sam Claassen and to try Reflect App, visit Reflect App’s website.
You may also refer to the transcripts below for the full transciption (not edited) of the interview.
Interview Transcipt -Not EditedEmailDownloadNew TabGreg Voisen
Well, welcome back to Inside Personal Growth. This is Greg Voisen, host of Inside Personal Growth. And joining me from the middle of the desert in Nevada is Sam Claassen. He is the Chief Growth Officer for a company called Reflect App. And I came across it is for most of my listeners know, Sam, I'm an extremely curious person. And I am very deeply involved with the second brain concept and what's going on with tako wear day with Cal Newport, with all of those great authors, including Scott Young, who we just did a podcast with. And Sam, how are you doing out in the middle of the desert? There are high desert it looks like.
Samuel Claassen
Yeah, I'm doing great. It was a little cold last night. I forget the desert gets very chilly when the sun goes down. But I'm kind of out warming up now. And I guess I should probably also say my title is technically ahead of growth. I don't want Alex to think I'm trying to inflate my title.
Greg Voisen
Okay. All right. Well, I'm gonna let the people know just a tad bit about you that he's a seasoned growth and product marketing leader. With nearly a decade of experience. His expertise lies in harmonizing product marketing and sales efforts to create customer experiences. And he has done an excellent job of that apt reflect by leveraging marketing analysis, product positioning and narrative. And to fine tune the go to market strategies that he is doing for reflect his work reflect in the personal projects have been deepened this proficiency in AI, a specializes in developing custom GPT models, which had begun to be used for lead generation and sales enablement. And last year, a scaled marketing agents to six figure revenues and currently offers strategic advice through the CEO interviews and multiple Y Combinator startups. So you can find out more about Sam Claassen, and that is spelled c-l-a-a-s-s-e-n on LinkedIn, we'll put a link to that we'll also put a link to reflect notes or I should say, Reflect app so that you guys can do that. And we're going to do a screenshot here in the middle of this podcast interview, where we can actually show you a comparison between the reflector app and other note taking apps because this is quite a wonderful product, especially the voice enabled part of it, which I'm enjoying greatly. So this is my little endorsement of this. But So Sam, there is a gentleman behind this company, he's the CEO, and he happens to have had a success prior to reflect app. And I'd like for you to talk with the listeners and share your thoughts on the philosophy of kind of minimalism and how it relates to organizing one's life through the notetaking application. And really what your CEO was, is and still is creating here what the reflect app.
Samuel Claassen
Yeah, absolutely. So, Reflect was originally started by Alex McCaw. If anyone has heard of clear bit, it's a marketing analysis and analytics company, they have incredible data. So I think most major companies have touched on clear, but at some point. So that was his first company, after clear bit, he, you know, really wanted to focus on a product that was his make more of a taste product in his division. And the thing that kept sticking in his mind was note taking. So he kind of noticed this pattern among note taking apps where they would raise a bunch of venture capital money. And then of course, they'd be expected to produce a return on that investment. And the easiest way to do that, as a note taking app is to add in collaboration, and basically turn it into somewhat of a team tool. And he felt that really took away from the core product of notetaking. And so you see all of these that expand and they add all these features. And you know, you can add your team and whatnot. And suddenly it's no longer a note taking app. And so there's a joke that, you know, people always tend to go back to Apple notes. If you've seen, I think it's called the Midwest meme. Where, you know, people start at Apple notes, and they go through all the tools and they end to Apple notes. Well, there's a really great reason for that. And it's because Apple notes has remained core to note taking so they're extremely fast, extremely frictionless, but because it's part of the Apple ecosystem. They of course, you know, they don't have investors or anything that they have to add additional features. And so they can just focus on creating the best possible note taking app. And that's really what Alex wanted to do. Now. Of course, he has some disagreements with Apple notes. So that's why he's, you know, created reflecting his own vision. And so a couple of those things when it comes to note taking philosophy is network note taking, which means you use backlinks instead of folders. So to give just a really quick example of that, you know, if I used Evernote or something, I might have a folder of all of my contacts, so I would have you know, Contacts folder, and then I'd have you Greg in there. And I say, all of your projects, your podcasts, my relationship, do you all that good stuff, which is fine, but it takes a little bit of organization because you have to decide where things go, reflect and other network note taking tools, instead of creating a folder, I would just create a backlink for your name. And then you have a dedicated note to you with all of that information. But I don't have to organize it. If I am doing this interview with you, today I can backlink to you and my current daily note, I can also have a note for this podcast where I can backlink to you as the host and all of that good stuff. So that's sort of the core difference in reflect. And I think a lot of other note taking apps is that it really relies on this backlinking model instead of a folder based organizational system.
Greg Voisen
Well, it's easier to find that way. Because all you have to do is type in Greg voice and and everything that we've talked about there. I know when in these interviews, we use otter AI, because we're literally using the AI system. But when I go into otter, it's very simple to kind of find all of these interviews and all of the the audio recordings and everything, it's very well designed. What I like about this simplicity of reflect notes in my use is really this audio recording, you know, we're all sitting on keyboards all day long. And the app for the iPhone is really, and it's a recent released folks, by the way, so easy to just pick up and use and put a note in there and then link it to whatever it is that you're doing. And it's so accurate. I would say the accuracy is no, I'm not gonna give it 100%. But it's it's running pretty close at like 95%. And in mind. Now, you emphasize this minimalist design and functionality, can you elaborate on how these benefits that kind of in compared to some of the complex platforms like obsidian or Rome? You know, your is not nearly as robust, but you don't want it to be. And there's a reason for that. So I really want the listeners to hear very carefully. And I'm going to actually, this is probably a good time, I'm going to actually share the screen if you don't mind. Because you made a comparison in September 23. And one of the things you know is Sam is out there on the internet, always trying to improve how reflect is seen. And he's always doing research. And so if you just go to their YouTube channel, you're going to find a lot of Sam talking about how to use this, the functionality of it or so on. So let me just share real quickly with the audience. Okay, I want to make it actually, let's do it this way. I'm going to make it I'm going to share it in a second. And the reason is, there's a reason for that, because I don't want to share the whole screen, I only want to share just the one thing. So we'll get back to that. But if you would comment on this minimalist design functionality, if you would.
Samuel Claassen
Absolutely. Yeah. So I guess what I maybe should have mentioned earlier to is that reflect is intentionally designed to help you think better and mirror your brain. And so that's where this minimalism aspect comes in, is, we really want just kind of a home base for your thinking. And I should say, you know, all of these other note taking apps, this is a very personal thing. So we don't try to pretend that reflect is the note taking app for everyone. And I'm a huge obsidian fan myself. I think it's an incredible product. It's too complicated for the way I take notes, but it's a really excellent product. So I think reflect is a very intentional, it's kind of like a hot take of a note taking app and how minimalist it is. But the the core reason for that is just frictionless. So the more optionality you added, the more friction it adds, I think it was Malcolm Gladwell that originally, maybe not originally, but use the example of tomato sauce in a grocery store, right? It's like going to a grocery store and there's 150 Different tomato sauces. You're just going to spend a ton of time choosing which tomato sauce and you're probably not going to be any happier You might actually even be worse because you just wish you would have just been given the best one. And so reflect doesn't ever want you to, like, drop into your notes with that feeling of like, where should I go? Where should I put something. And so that's kind of where the minimalism comes in is you really shouldn't have to do any thinking about where things go, or what you should be doing. There's nothing to customize, there's, I mean, almost literally nothing that you can customize and reflect. And again, that's very intentional. So that's kind of the first reason is just to reduce friction might.
Greg Voisen
Something might add something to I think our society has an especially with software as we've used more cloud based pieces of software, as users out here, and I'm just going to call myself a user experimenter. We've come become accustomed to a lot of features, because that's what's its built in. So when you go to reflect, you actually have to detox. And what I'm finding about the detox is maybe the right word, actually, because I want to declutter my life. Right. And I think everybody listening would like to declutter their lives. But what they don't really realize is how they become so dependent, that they actually have to detox to actually use something like reflect notes. Now, that isn't a negative, it's a positive. It's a positive. Okay. I hope you take it as a positive. So how does notes kind of declutter our digitalized world in your estimation? You there? Well, I
Samuel Claassen
guess, yeah. I mean, I guess, I kind of like the detox phase, I think I'm gonna steal that from you and do some marketing stuff around, taking detox. So I guess what I see. So I do all of the personal onboarding for reflect and what I see a lot of people going through as they sort of accidentally go through this detox, you know, it's like, maybe they weren't intentionally doing it. But now they're trying reflect. So we kind of forced you into a note taking, detox and reflect. And you see people who want these very, very niche features. And it's basically them kind of coping with the detox, right. So like some examples are, like, we get a ton of asks for block level references, we get a lot of requests for people to, you know, be able to like, highlight text, and then create a unique note with like a description without ever having to leave the original note and like all of these little things that are totally fine functionality. And you can totally see why it would be useful. And they're effectively trying to recreate every workflow that they've ever had in a note taking app. But I think when you're doing a detox like that, you're stripping all of that away. And you're going instead of going from the top down and saying, What's every single functionality I can think of? And how can I recreate that you're starting from zero and saying, what is the core functionality that I must have. And so you're just starting with a blank page. And that's what we tell everyone, just start by writing down, like what you need to do in the day, or if you don't know what you need to do in the day, just start recording what you are doing in the day. And that's a great place to start. You don't have to do any more than that if you don't want to. But then once they kind of do that stuff, then they're like, oh, wow, that felt really nice. And now that I have now I have just like this clean list in my notes. Okay, well, now I'm going to try, you know, backlinking this entity, and then they see the backlink, and they're like, Oh, that's okay. Now that clicks, I have an association between today and this person that I met with or this client that I met with, and then you know, maybe you're like, Okay, well, that feels great. And then you maybe try doing a voice note. And you start to just add things slowly from the ground. But you don't really ever kind of look or even miss those other things that you were trying to recreate. And so I think that's how I would describe the the detoxes, instead of going top down with all the features you can think of, you're starting from the bottom and building up with only the core functionality that you truly need out of notetaking. Well,
Greg Voisen
what I would say is, what's interesting is, especially for the voice function, you know, we have things that flash in our mind, and we want to capture it, right. So I remember in David Allen's getting things done getting things done, you know, he said, find this ubiquitous place where you can dump everything. And what I think is really good is we've got this ubiquitous, kind of inbox, right call it an inbox where I can allow things to do. And then as you said, very easily find with the with the tags, right? So great voice and yep, boom, there it is. The other thing you did that I thought was interesting, and I haven't used much I have to admit, but I did test it. Was this, this link to, you know, Kindle, the Amazon and the books. And, you know, there's so much that people are doing out there. There's other apps that just focus in on, you know, what you're reading? How am I going to capture the news out of it? And so on? What was the philosophy behind you wanting to make that link to Amazon and being able to pick up, you know, my books, because what happened is, when I hit it, it literally pulled all this data over. You know, is this like, yeah, yeah.
Samuel Claassen
So right, right now, there's actually two ways to do it. I think what you're talking about is through the Chrome extension, and that you just sign into your Amazon account, and then it syncs all the books in your library with the notes and the highlights you make, but not the actual books themselves.
Greg Voisen
Yeah, it's just the highlights I made. Yeah. Yeah.
Samuel Claassen
Yeah, exactly. So that will just be added to your notes. So if I, you know, like, if I save, like atomic habits or something, and years later, I'm like, Oh, what was that exact sort of like, trigger action, whatever that loop was, I kind of remember, I can just search my notes and find it. Now, I mentioned the part about it doesn't sink, hold books, because I think we're quickly approaching a day when we you'll just be able to sink your literal entire library in there. And then you can chat with your books. I mean, how magically, how magical is that going to be? It's like, you know, if I just got my paragliding license. So it's like I could download a whole book on paragliding and chat with that book when I have a question. So I think we're just kind of on the cusp of being able to use some of these things. But currently, it will sync all of your library with the highlights and the notes you make. And you can also do that I should mention through read wise. So talking about those apps that really focused just on capturing reading, we are I shouldn't say we, Alex in the team looked at read wise and said, you know, we have no intention of adding in all of that functionality ever. So we're just going to integrate read wise, and then you can pull in anything from your read wise and read wise into reflect tongue twister. So I think it's from reflect standpoint, we want to make sure you're able to capture all of the information that you need to. And so books are a huge part of that links through the Chrome extension are a huge part of that. We had a bunch of people saying how hard it was to save tweets and reflect. So they added like an integration into the Chrome extension where you can save your tweets, one of our next things that we're going to be doing is a lot better file support for things like PDFs and images, where reflect will actually be able to kind of read the PDF, and you can chat with it directly in your notes and all of that good stuff. So that's the ideal world we're going for it is just any piece of information, whether it's a thought or something you read or a video, you can just instantly put it into your notes so that it's saved. And you don't have to have that kind of anxious thought in your head that Oh, I forgot something or like, Oh, what was that amazing book someone told me about and now I forgot. I think
Greg Voisen
it's so it's this. Not everybody's looking for a second brain. But a lot of people who work for a living need a second brain, they at least feel like they need it. And we're talking about tako for your fourth day right now. And he has booked the second brain and the para pa Ra. Now he talks about, hey, I've got all this stuff going around, I want to write a book. So let's just say somebody out there today wants to write a book. But they're trying to collect all these notes from all over these places where I have to put these pieces together that I'd like to combine into a book, or I want to, I want to create a video. But I want to pick up on all the parts that I want to put into the video. I see this here. I see that there. I want to collect it. I want to put it someplace. Now, if you would, for the users out there that want to use this as a second brain to help them organize their thoughts and their tasks. How does reflect integrate this concept? For more? We talked about the minimalist fashion. And you've just talked about some of the other features through Chrome extensions that are now allowing people to pull this data across to to their Is there something you can tell us that would would make it better for us
Samuel Claassen
Yeah, so I love this question because I think this is what makes the whole backlinking thing really come together. So the second brain concept, I like to think of it, I don't know what the right word is. But it's like really, truly mirroring your brain. So it's almost not even a second brain. It's sort of like you're exporting your brain, if that makes sense. And I think the backlinks are best thought of as an association between two thoughts. So that's the way our brain functions, right? It's like, we have all of these thoughts swimming around our head, some of which are people and places, and we try and form associations with them. So tomorrow, I'll be driving through Salt Lake City, and I'm like, Oh, I have friends in Salt Lake City, don't I like Who do I know in Salt Lake City. And in my head, I try and start finding those associations between like, Oh, my friend, John, from college, I think he moved out there a couple of years ago. And I'm kind of like reaching for that association. And if you imagine that in sort of like a world where you have all of these like nodes that are thoughts, and all of those thoughts are connected to certain other thoughts. And then you form this kind of web of ideas. And we actually tried to give a visualization of this and reflect obsidian does it as well, called a we call it a mind map, where you can actually see all of those notes in your notes, but in your head there, of course, thoughts and ideas, and you can see them associated. And you can see a literal representation of your second brain, which I think is very, very cool, because then you start to realize, oh, the value isn't just in the individual thoughts and the ideas, the value is in the associations between them. And so if I create, you know, like a note for you and your contact, but I don't associate it with anything, there's a huge chance, I might never see that again. Like, sure, maybe one day, I'm gonna say like, oh, who, you know, who is what podcast was I on back in 2024? And who is the host? I don't remember. And you're gonna have to like search through everything. The value would be and knowing the associations between those things. So that if I meet someone, later on interested in what we're talking about, I can be like, oh, gosh, yeah, that was the literal podcast recording here, I can see the association link, I'm just gonna send it to that person. And,
Greg Voisen
listeners, I'll let our listeners know that while you're speaking here, we're going to add into this some screenshots, so that you'll actually be able to see what Sam is talking about, because these are like little spider webs. Right, that show up? Yeah, that kind of like little I added when where all of these ideas came from, and it, it isn't something that I'm using very much I will tell you, but the reality is that you mentioned it, I think it's important that listeners know that it's a feature. Right. And, and that's what's important. Now, you know, look, you've got a lot of collaborators and competitors in this environment, I'm just going to call them collaborators, because I don't believe there's competition anywhere but one of the biggest ones, but it's kind of fallen off lately and they put AI end was really Evernote and you know, Evernote stuck in AI, you guys have a AI. But their AI basically is going to search everything in the the the vast array of notes that that I have in Evernote and I haven't gotten rid of Evernote. I still have it. But what I wanted to find out was how is how do you guys see yourself in the middle of this large arena of note taking apps, and in particular was something that was at its peak, probably one of the most used note taking apps, which is Evernote, which I think is trying to find their way again now. Because everybody's banging at their door.
Samuel Claassen
Well, and I mean, let's give Evernote some credit, right, like they are almost single handedly popular popularized digital note taking, and the concept of being able to access your notes across devices. So while I agree with like, kind of larger opinion of Evernotes decline, I mean, they were really the pioneers in the digital notates Oh, yeah. So, so I, you know, we like to give them credit and kind of like you said to we don't really think of them as other apps as competitors much because you just have to figure out what fits the best with your brain. And I think that's sort of how we see ourselves in the landscape with all the competitors is that it's a unlikely. Or let me put it this way, if if Evernote really appeals to someone in the way they think it's highly unlikely that reflect will, because they're just so different and how they function. Now, usually what happens is people come over from Evernote, and on day one, they're like, oh my gosh, I'm missing my folders, how do I do these systems. And then after the first or second week, they're like, oh, my gosh, I can't imagine going back. And that's when they realize the concept of a note taking app fitting with the way you think, now to give kind of an opposite example. So I'm a simple thinker, right. And I want to like that, I guess that sounds like a bad thing. But, you know, like, there's a lot of people out there, like, I have software developer friends, that they love making things as complex and as high functioning as possible. Like that is what they are looking for. That's how their brains work, someone like that they're gonna fit in a lot better with obsidian than with reflect, because they're gonna be highly, you know, into customizing things. They might even be hard coding their own integrations. Whereas like, we have an API, but it's fairly limited compared to what some of the other ones do. And so I think that's kind of how how we see ourselves and how we're fairly unapologetic in a good way about the product is that if someone doesn't like reflect, we're like, that's completely fine. You know, you should definitely choose the note taking app that fits with the way you think. And in that regard, I would love to see a lot more a note taking apps that operate in a similar way to reflect by which I mean, they're not a VC backed high growth company, it is more of a taste made product that is made in someone's vision and someone's taste. And I wish we had, you know, like a dozen of those small ones instead of five major players, because then everyone would have a nice kind of menu and selection to choose from that fits their brain, even though we're in a really competitive landscape. And note taking right now, I don't think we're anywhere close to that, because these products are just built to scale as far as they go. So I would struggle to even call notion a note taking app at this point. Because it just has so much functionality built in. And I still use notion I just don't consider it a note taking app, I use it, you know, for completely other purposes. How do you
Greg Voisen
rate yourself reflect app with relation to if you look at obsidian, which is why all the software engineers use it is the security? You know, we're taking our world and we're dumping it into these cloud based systems. And you're wondering, oh, well, how secure is that? You know, and I'm sure there are people out there who would want to use your application, but maybe want to make certain that there's some level of security regarding everything I'm dumping into this system? Can you give us some reassurance there?
Samuel Claassen
Absolutely. Yeah. So and our value security is like number one, I was talking with Alex the other day, we're working on a big speed improvement. And it's sort of like the priorities for a note taking app should be security as number one. Number two is basically like uptime, performance, stability, making sure like, I guess, like number one security, no one's gonna steal your notes, and no one's gonna see your notes or leak them. Number two, stability, you're not going to lose your notes. But you're not going to like open the app one day and all of your notes are gone. That's like the second most important. And then three behind that is like speed, performance functionality, and you start to get into that stuff. So security is always number one, reflect is has an end to end encryption. We undergo regular security audits, with our AI tools. So people often ask why we haven't more widely implemented AI and reflect where it just has access to your entire notes. And securities. The reason for that it's we don't want to have anyone's notes being sent, you know, back and forth between open AI because we use GPT. For now we use GPG for we just launched that today, actually. And so how we kind of met that balance and reflect is if you use the AI tools know that we are using open AI is GPT. And so anything you send or use that AI tool on, you know, open AI is not going to know that it's like Sam classes know, it's like all anonymized, but they do have access to that data. Now, we're looking forward to a day that I mean, I mean, this could happen any day now where we have a locally hosted AI that doesn't have to have any communication with open AI or any company and then we can give it full access to your notes. You can chat with all of your notes. Hopefully by that point, context. Windows are so large, they're basically irrelevant and you know, you can have unlimited data as being sent to the AI Yeah, But until then, it's a trade off. And so that's how we've met that balance. Some companies have just, you know, accepted that all of the notes are going to be sent. And that's a choice. And some people are like, you know, that's totally fine. Like, there's nothing in my notes that I really care about that with, let's
Greg Voisen
address something like, pretty simple. You know, I noticed that I can drag across a JPEG or PDF or JPEG. I haven't put a PDF in there, but I would assume that I could. So now you're really looking at expanding it even more, right? It's like, oh, yeah, I'm taking and putting a picture over there. I'm putting a PDF over there. I'm putting a P and G over there. I'm doing whatever it is, because of all of the things that you can drag into this. What is this? Where do you maintain kind of this? The balance between the offering the powerfulness of the of the features and keeping the user interface kind of uncluttered? And more intuitive? Right? Because I will say I don't find it. Because, again, how your brain functions, depending on what you've been influenced by whether it's Evernote, or it's Apple notes, or it's any of these others? It isn't initially and I told you this when I first started using it, I think this is where listeners out there need to hear me, you have to hang in because it's not extremely intuitive. Right at the onset. Now, I don't say that that's a bad piece of software that was designed. What I'm saying is, it's because of the minimalism of it, that you don't have all these other features that clouded all up. And you don't feel like someone's guiding you through the process. It's like you got to find it yourself. It's like, Where's Waldo? Right? Like, oh, yeah, he's over here. Oh, no, while those over there. Oh, he's here, you following what I'm saying? It's kind of like it's a Where's Waldo? Yeah, experience. But it's actually fun. If you're inquisitive, and you're curious, that's what you've got to be.
Samuel Claassen
Sure. And this is something that you know, for I handled growth, but really, I'm everything that's non technical, because I should have said, I'm the only non engineer on reflect. So. So like, everything from like customer onboarding, and stuff, that's all me. And that's one of the biggest challenges is, yeah, the interface is so simple. And it's not like you're trying to hide things. But also in a way you kind of are, because like, you don't want all of these buttons in front of your face when you're taking notes. And a great example is like on our mobile app, to keep things clean, the menu can actually slide a bit to the right, and there's more buttons. And like this is one of my continuous struggles is trying to teach people that you can like there's more buttons. So like to add an image, you just scroll the bar, and then I show people and they're like, oh my god, that's amazing. I had no idea that was there. So that's something I'm constantly trying to work on. If you're using reflect and you encounter one of these things, and you're like what the heck, Sam, I had no idea this existed, send me an email at Sam at reflect on app. And I will try and fix that in our onboarding because this is really challenging. To answer your original question, I mean, the, the balance of kind of keeping that minimalism, and the performance is mostly Alex just saying no to 95% of feature requests, or just waiting until he has to get beaten down on them. So I think tasks were like that. It's technically still in beta. But it's pretty much out of beta on the desktop, we still have to add it to mobile. And I mean, people really beat down Alex about tasks. They were like, This is core note taking, like, that is one of the core things, you do it in your notes. And he was like, yep, you're right. Like that's gonna we're gonna add it and he added it. But then other things like I brought up block level references. Can you still just like nope, not doing it, even though we have a bunch of people that say they want block level references. So that's the importance of of a product like this being a taste product. And having someone a founder like Alex, that is willing to say like, this is not a full democracy. Like this is a product built in my vision. If it was cracy, the app would be a nightmare.
Greg Voisen
Well, you'd obviously be making a lot more decisions about what you're going to add in what features you're going to add. Now look, looking ahead at new features, what we can expect from reflect, in your opinion, how will that trend towards keeping it minimal? And the digital organization evolve over the next few years as you see this app evolving? Because it is relatively new. And what role is reflect app going to play in In this overall world, we know it's not for everybody. So anybody listening here today, hey, I say go check it out, they give you a 14 day free trial, you really can't in 14 days, you literally can't figure out whether or not you're like this or not. But it is going to take you some time, you're going to want to spend time with it, you're going to want to feel comfortable with it, you're going to want to use it, you're going to want to integrate it in to your daily life. And I would say it for most people, Sam, the biggest challenge is transformation and change. And so the minute they come up with against something that doesn't go with the grain of how they normally do something, they literally go, well, this isn't any good anymore. You know, my 14 day trial is over. I'm done with you guys. What I really want to encourage my listeners is, don't take that attitude, take the attitude that this is something new to learn. It's something that will really help you abundantly in your organizing your life. But okay, Sam, so we've talked about all these features, or lack thereof, we've talked about reflect notes. And you know, you guys do have a future in this arena, which is vast and expansive, constantly growing, there's more people writing books about this, to go as another book coming out the end of this year, about more on the second brain and where this is going to evolve to. And I think as AI has become more and more accepted in our lives, how we organize. And I love it reflect on our life, and how we want it to be organized. You guys play a role. And as I said earlier, take the position that you need to spend time with this application, it isn't going to be an immediate like, okay, great. It's going to be oh, how do I look at this in a way that it can be more powerful for me more useful for me, and don't put resistance against it, but acceptance to it. And you will find over time that it will become part of your DNA. That's really what you want to become. So where do you see this going with Alex and, you know, things being adopted in the next year or so?
Samuel Claassen
Yeah, so now I'm kind of, I'm talking more for Sam now. Because, like, obviously, I'm not really sure what's going to happen technologically. In the next year. I mean, how fast things are moving, it can be literally anything. And I should also say for the users. If you ever, if anyone ever needs more than two weeks, we are happy to just extend the people's trial, because we totally get that note taking app is a big decision. And we're pretty anti tire kicking. So we want people to know that it's the right app for them before they commit. Now on where are things going, Oh, gosh. So this is one of my favorite questions. Because if I could just make any pitch for for everyone just start note taking and capturing everything day to day on some level, even if it's not with reflect. And the reason I feel so strongly about this is because it seems so obvious that where we are going is going to be having these immense AI assistants so we call reflects AI integration AI assistant, but I'm talking like full advanced assistants that can do effectively any knowledge task on behalf of you. So the people that have effectively exported their brain into some form of information that can be fed into AI are going to be at such an extreme advantage. I mean, it's gonna be nuts, if you can actually give an AI your entire brain of knowledge, they are going to be 100x more powerful for you than for someone that hasn't done that. So that's my first pitch, just even if it's not with reflect, start taking notes immediately if you don't already, because you will be at such a big advantage over anyone else in the very, very near future. Now, we're reflect individually where we're going, we're always going to keep prioritizing those values. So I talked about security, stability and performance, but also just this concept of frictionless and helping you to think better, that is what reflect is always going to make decisions around. So kind of the core thing I tell everyone, if you are just if you are looking for the easiest, most frictionless way to capture information, whether that is something you read an idea you have a thought people you meet anything, then reflect I firmly believe is the most frictionless way to capture that information. And that is our goal will be to remain that and get better and better at just making thought capture thought recall as frictionless as possible. And of course, AI is going to play a huge role in that.
Greg Voisen
That was a great summary. By the way, I appreciate that Sam it it, you know it, it's sometimes in words, which is what we're actually capturing, because that's our language that we're, you know, we're speaking to actually convey a message or idea or pick up a concept. You, you just really summarize that very eloquently. I want to thank you for that. And and the other thing is, is look, unless we were wired to an AI system, no matter what those thoughts were, and I know, we know, it's like put a chip in my brain and like ticket and boy, I could, you know, get it on paper. Right? I don't see it coming to that. But there's still this use a frictionless, you mentioned that like three or four times the friction as frictionless way to do it is to make it in your own pattern, how it can be the easiest to get it done. Right? How you work as an individual, how does your day bear it out to get this stuff done and captured? And I think, then the question becomes, as well, I'm capturing all this, then what do I do with it? Well, when you have those backlinks, and something comes to mind, it becomes so much easier to go back and reference the stuff you captured. And you have to equate a value in capturing to a value and recall to a value in an application that you can use the recall. So in other words, the value and capturing to the value to the recall to the value in what you do with that recall. And if I was one thing that I would tell people, if you link those three things, those are the most important things because everybody's looking to figure out how can they be more valuable? And how can they contribute? Well, if you can't think of something you can't contribute. But if you can think of something, and you became a master at that, you bring much more value to the table for the person who hasn't thought of that. So just think of it that way, reflect, reflect and put it down. And Sam, it's been a pleasure having you on insight personal growth from the desert of Nevada. This is the first time we've ever used a star link to actually have something I just saw a truck go by you in on the side here.
Samuel Claassen
Thanks. It's first human I've seen since I've been here.
Greg Voisen
Wonderful podcast. You're a great growth expert for this company. And collaborator. It's been a pleasure having me on inside personal growth. And for my listeners, we're going to put a link to the reflect app, you get the 14 day free trial. We'll also put a link to the YouTube channel where you can actually see Sam showing you how to use this and if you want to check all that out first before you get your free trial. Fine. If not, go up there and get your free trial and try this out. Sam, thanks for being on Inside Personal Growth.
Samuel Claassen
Thanks, Greg. This is great. Enjoy talking with you.
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Inside Personal Growth with Greg Voisen · Podcast 1123: The Art of Compassionate Business (2nd Edition) with Dr. Bruno CignaccoIn a recent interview, Dr. Bruno Cignacco, author of The Art of Compassionate Business: Main Principles for the Human-Oriented Enterprise, shared his perspectives on integrating compassion into business practices. Here are some key takeaways from his enlightening conversation.
Defining Compassionate Business
Dr. Cignacco emphasizes that compassionate business involves connecting with stakeholders on both mental and emotional levels. It’s about understanding their challenges and providing support, especially during difficult times. For instance, if a supplier is struggling to meet deadlines, a compassionate company would engage in a dialogue to understand their issues and offer help rather than merely imposing penalties.
Balancing Quantitative and Qualitative Aspects
While businesses must focus on traditional metrics like profit, market share, and productivity, Dr. Cignacco argues that they should also prioritize qualitative aspects such as support, care, generosity, and gratitude. By fostering strong relationships with stakeholders, companies can enhance loyalty and cooperation, ultimately contributing to their success. This approach underscores the principle of interdependence, where the success of a business is linked to the well-being of its stakeholders.
The Role of Leadership in Compassionate Business
Leaders play a crucial role in cultivating a compassionate business environment. Dr. Cignacco highlights that leadership is not confined to those at the top but extends to all employees, regardless of their role. He advocates for a business mission that transcends economic goals to include social and environmental impacts. Leaders should adopt a humble, learning-oriented mindset, be open to diverse opinions, and support their teams through coaching and mentoring.
Future Trends in Compassionate Business
Looking ahead, Dr. Cignacco predicts that compassionate business practices will increasingly integrate human touch with technological advancements. Companies will not only focus on financial outcomes but also prioritize social and environmental impact reports. This holistic approach can enhance a company’s reputation, attract socially conscious investors, and improve employee morale and customer loyalty.
Key Lessons from Compassionate Business Practices
One of the most impactful lessons Dr. Cignacco has learned is that the most valuable resource in business is the human being. Employees, customers, suppliers, and other stakeholders continuously add value and drive innovation. Thus, treating them with compassion and support is essential for sustainable business success. He emphasizes that compassionate principles like sustainability, care, and mutual benefit are timeless and can be applied across various business sectors.
In conclusion, Dr. Cignacco’s insights offer a profound shift in how businesses can operate. By embedding compassion into their core practices, companies can build stronger, more resilient relationships with all their stakeholders, paving the way for long-term success and a positive societal impact. You may know more about Dr. Bruno Cignacco by visiting his website here or through their company website.
You may also refer to the transcripts below for the full transciption (not edited) of the interview.
Interview Transcipt -Not EditedEmailDownloadNew TabGreg Voisen
Well, welcome back to Inside Personal Growth. Joining me from London, England is Dr. Bruno and I don't want to mess up your last name so say it for us.
Dr. Bruno Cignacco
Cignacco.
Greg Voisen
Cignacco. And he has this book called The Art of Compassionate Business: Main Principles for the Human-Oriented Enterprise. This is a Rutledge book. But for many of you know, that's more of kind of like, even a textbook, but it's a big book. It's, it's 400 Plus pages. But what we're going to do today is we're going to distill it down. And I'm going to tell the listeners a little that a bit about you, Bruno, he's the CEO, and founder of his own consulting business, called Human-Oriented Enterprise. For more than 30 years of experience supporting companies from different sectors worldwide. He's also been teaching business modules at several universities, both at graduate and postgraduate levels, and he trained companies for around 20 years in the UK and other countries. He is also well known for his TEDx speaker talk. He is a senior fellow of Higher Education Academy and UK. He is the author of several business books published in different language, one of them the fundamentals of international market marketing, which Ben is praised by International Trade Center, Geneva, Switzerland. He's a leading organizational worldwide regarding international trade and international marketing. He is a master life coach and a master in LP practitioner, Neuro Linguistic Programming, at stock that's Bandler. And actually, Bandler is in London. So that's where you can get that course. And his study disciplines related to personal development. For more than 30 years, he's delivered countless talks, seminars and conferences in several countries. He's also the author of a personal development book published, which we're talking about this one, the new book, The Art of Compassionate Business. I'm gonna hold that up for all of you, and we're gonna have a link to Amazon. For all you want to learn more about Bruno go to humanorientedenterprise.com, humanorientedenterprise.com. You can learn more about the workshops, you can learn more about what they do there, and so on. Well, Bruno, I want to know how you define compassionate business, because it's kind of this amorphous thing that floats around. We've had lots of people speak about it. Europe seems to be at the forefront, I think, as much or more than the US, which is probably why you have more, you know, interest there. Richard Barrett was one of the first people I trained through who really taught this concept well, what are the core principles of it?
Dr. Bruno Cignacco
Yes, the core principle of compassionate pieces are to connect to different stakeholders, and understanding on a mental level, how they think, but understanding also on an emotional level, this means how they feel and try to help them when they face challenges. So this means that it's not totally connecting to others from a mental and emotional level, but also try to support them, especially when they face difficulties. An example could be, let's imagine that the company has a supplier that this delivering merchandise late and the supplier have to comply with a contract, we apply the contract the supplied by the penalize, but it will treat the supplier in a compassionate way, the company representative might look to the supplier might have a one to one meeting to see what difficulties this applied face. And also to see how they can support the supplier in the future. In order the supplier is prevented from being late. So this means that we understand what we're treating stakeholders in a compassionate way we understand that people face difficulty have challenges. And when we find this challenging situation, people want to be supported. They don't want to be criticized or penalized because we treat others in a judgmental way. We are more prone to break up this relationship. Why because people become defensive instead when you treat people in a supportive way. They treat you in a reciprocal way it means supporting others, help them support you. So this means that he said is a very positive cycle, you support others and they're more prone to contribute to your company in a positive way. Instead of when you penalize or you judge others very harshly, they're prone to withdraw their pro not to cooperate.
Greg Voisen
Well, it's interesting you say that because you know many of my listeners and myself you know you listen to the Dalai Lama. Ommaney says the only way the world is going to heal is if we're compassionate. Now, sometimes people would say, bro, no compassion, and business don't go hand in hand. In other words, they're saying, Hey, we have to get things done on time within a budget. We've got all these parameters associated with this. And while we would maybe like to be compassionate, it's hard because we have other people leaning on us. So how do you get all the stakeholders that are involved in this together to actually know that we're operating as a compassionate business, so all the stakeholders understand what the outcome needs to be very
Dr. Bruno Cignacco
interesting. But uh, so, in order to be compassionate, we have to focus on two main aspects of business, we have to focus on what we call one TTD does become pieces, which are very important for business survival and success, such as profit market share a productivity quality levels, but also we have to focus on qualitative aspects of business what cannot be measured precisely what cannot be counted. For example, support care, compassion, generosity, gratitude. By focusing also on qualitative aspect of pieces, you forced the restaurant or less in relationship with different stakeholders, that will be so important because no company can succeed without the stakeholder, there is a principle in business called interdependence. This means that companies do succeed need employees, they need suppliers, they need customers, they need community members, they need business partners. So wouldn't it be nice to have all these stakeholders on our side, you cannot force them to be on your side, the only way that they can be on your side contributing to your company's objective is to treat them in a caring way, in a compassionate way supporting them when they face difficulties, being grateful to them. So because when you do so you build strong relationships with stakeholders, and the stakeholders are more prone to support your company, instead of when you treat these stakeholders in a dismissive way, in a non-compassionate way, the stakeholder might tend to withdraw. For example, when you treat customer in a, in a deceptive way on a non-compassionate way. These customers are prone to leave negative reviews, my prone to choose other companies products that are prone to push other potential customers away. Instead, when you treat this customer in a supportive way, when you adopt an attitude of service, they try to serve this customer in high value, these customers are prone to reciprocate, they will leave positive reviews, they might come back, they are prone to become loyal and committed to your company. And they might also bring some more customers and potential customers. So this means that when you are compassionate with this stakeholder, they tend to work in a compassionate way to your company, they tend to contribute to your company's success. And as we mentioned, no company can succeed without the stakeholder because companies are always interdependent with the stakeholders. That's
Greg Voisen
a great way to phrase that. And thank you for that now, inside the organization not working with other stakeholders just through our rank and file and our people. We obviously want to treat them compassionate, we understand that employee engagement is kind of an all time low in this country. And it's at that low because they're the employees aren't being fulfilled. They're not getting what they really need or would like to have. And you see how dynamic things and how fast things are moving in our world with AI and all these other things. What would you say as somebody who teaches this with inside the culture of an organization to maintain this, but also to also have accountability, because we're seeing this falling short of accountability inside these organizations where things aren't getting done, and that's causing more and more agitation, and that agitation is going all the way up the ladder? And I could cite many companies where this has been happening, but how would you kind of address that as a consultant?
Dr. Bruno Cignacco
Very interesting question. So, first, I will address a very important factor that is hidden in most organizations. In most workplaces that I observe as a consultant, there is fear, fear, so I will have to say this very clearly fear for example, employees have fear of being fired, fear of being mistaken fear of sharing resources with other colleagues, fear of being outpaced by other colleagues, they are competing with each other instead of cooperating with each other. When there is fear, there cannot be support that cannot be cooperation. When people are fearful. They tend to be less creative, less productive, why? Because they become reactive. They are trying to become defensive before the threat. Instead, when a workplace is compassionate, this means that people support one another, there is what may psychology will upset us psychological safety. There is a very interesting study on psychological safety that this researcher conducted a very important survey. And they observed that workplace it they are loving these workplaces that they are loving, loving, this is the word that they use. These mean that people support one another, they cared for one another, they're generous, they're grateful with one another. And so this means that they're cooperative in this workplace, there is higher employee satisfaction, higher customer satisfaction, why because employees that are certified tend to serve customers in a more effective way, employees that are happy, make customer happy, but also there is lower absenteeism, lower stress levels, this means that employees lower medical costs, but also there is also more cooperation. And this brings about a positive impact on the bottom line, this means profit. This is quite important because when employees are supported, when they feel that they are taken care of they are appreciated within the company, they tend to be more productive, they tend to go the extra mile. And this is quite important because employee have many types of needs. Most company focus on one type of need, economically, we pay a salary that they allow them to have a livelihood, nice livelihood to pay their bills, but the employees have emotional needs, they need to be appreciated, they need to be supported, they need to be recognized when they contribute to the company. For example, a thank you note writing a thank you note personalized thank you note to this employee, an event to celebrate the employees accomplishment, but also the maintenance. I see companies that have the employee 24/7 How many men male, the employee get bored, they get demotivated, they don't have mentally stimulation, employees happy mental need, they need novelty. For example, what about introducing job rotation employees, one week work in one department another week work in another department so that they have a much more holistic view of the company. And employees have also shown certain needs, I see many employees that are isolated working on their own, they cannot relate to one another, isn't he they kind of have a non business conversation with colleagues. Because I saw a company here in the UK, I won't mention the name of the company that have eight hours a week they have a meetings every day, employees don't have time to talk about their family, their friends, in the break time, they don't have break time. So how you can develop bonds with colleagues, if you only talk about business, talking about business is important. But also employees have a life outside the company. And they need to form some bond with other colleagues. So employees to summarize, have economic needs, social needs, mental needs, and other needs that need to be addressed? Most company focus only on the economic needs of the Signet team.
Greg Voisen
Well, you know, for many years, I I worked in spirit in business spirituality in business. And I think spirituality when you really look at it, if we can't bring our spirituality to business. It's it's a problem, okay? In the sense that, hey, if we leave work, we do things differently than we do at work. No, it has to be one in the same, it has to be connected. And I've been actually recently advised that we make a sacrifice for our time, we're a contract with an employer for something in the future retirement plan, a 401 K plan, whatever it might be, but we've made this contract and we've sacrificed what other because all we have is time, that's all we've got left. So when you get down to the deep psychological part of it, there has to be a very strong driving spiritual, emotional, mental way for me to get engaged in this company to feel like I'm doing something different and especially with the new generations, the new generations of people and that brings me to this research in your research, did you find cultural differences and age differences in how compassion and business is perceived and implemented across different regions? So,
Dr. Bruno Cignacco
yes, yeah, they observe what they observe there are two types of cultures many, especially in cultural studies will observe that there are two main type of culture will be called collectivist cultures, where people celebrate for example, group work group achievement, and we can talk about for example, many countries in the South Asia area, this country have a much more collectivist culture and other cultures are much more what we call individualist cultures. This means that if for example, the you phase one of the example United States. So this means that a what you try to pursue there is individual achievement, you what you're trying to pursue is the personal goals. And this means that relationships are important, but they are not very well celebrated as a way of achieving goals together. So, in this case is in these two types of cultures, the culture that are more collected is in this spectrum, they're more prone to build relationships much more naturally, and people are more length, more naturally compassionate with one another. However, compassion is not only, like a privilege of certain cultures, is a principle and a value that can be observed in any culture. And in some cases, people need to be trained or reminded how they can be compassionate because we're all naturally compassionate. And we're all naturally kind and supportive. There are many studies on this, but it worked. I observed that in this collectivist cultures, the relationship are much more a pre release, and people are much more naturally set up in a way that they will support one another. And the collective achievement will be a celebrated as it was being the leader on a team and in the individualist cultures. I hope that I answered this question. Yeah,
Greg Voisen
you did. You talked about an individualistic culture, which is more the UK or Europe and the United States versus some of the Asian ones. And I get that, but what are some of the common resistances companies face when trying to implement compassionate business practices? And how can they overcome them Bruna? What what would be the way that you would advise them to kind of overcome the resistance? I
Dr. Bruno Cignacco
like this question, I love this question. So, the most important resistance is focusing on quantitative aspects of business company that are only driven by economic aspect, what can be measurable can be counted, such as profit market share, tend to this means this qualitative has got pieces that are very important to build a strong relationship with stakeholders, not only with employees, but with other stakeholders, like customers, suppliers. But also there is another interesting speaking visit that this will be called time scarcity. People don't have time to build the relationship with others. So and you see you have tight deadlines, multitasking, many projects, many simultaneous projects that are to be fulfilled, or the labor in a very short time, and people have no time to engage with one another on a mental and emotional level. I read an article many years ago that was titled The human moment at work that was published in Harvard Business Review. And this was one of the courses that brought about the research on this topic. And this author of several companies should foster a connection with different stakeholders on a mental and emotional level. If you have multitasking, if you have tight deadlines, how you can connect to one another on a mental and emotional level, they still have to observe that to be compassionate with others take only one minute, one minute. And there is a very interesting example that is about a doctor in the medical sector that was about to operate the patient. And this doctor a the patient was very nervous, very anxious, and this doctor had a conversation with this patient before the operation. They tried to count this patient down, try to support this patient. When they went through the operation. This patient needed less anesthesia, that their average patient and also poetry, a process was much quicker. So this means that compassion has very tangible concrete effects, help people feel better, bring about a better if you're in a state of well being. But if you're continually a tie with the deadlines, if you are very busy, how you can connect to others on a mental, mental and emotional level, but also another aspect implicit that impede this compassionate relationship. Compassion based relationship is the use of words such as strategy tactics, they're war mongering words, they're very well, using bases competing, when you're competing, competing means you're beating others to get a bit of the share in the market. That is not a vocabulary that is allowing people to treat each other in a compassionate way. This is the way that
Greg Voisen
when we've we've we when I say we I'm going to say a work force, people that's what it's referred to, you can call it human capital. You can call it want. But we have been programmed since a very young age and there's a conundrum between productivity and compassion because we realize eyes that it takes more time to be compassionate. Or maybe it doesn't maybe you can prove me wrong, versus the time we meaning the workforce that it has to spend to be productive. So if I'm being measured, which most businesses have, you know, project managers, you're on a timeline, you've got a Gantt chart, you got things you're doing, you're being measured by, are you getting it done, and if you are, then you're getting a promotion and you're getting more money. How do you take that whole structure, which is business has been built on and change it to one where the conundrum does not exist between productivity and compassion. Use
Dr. Bruno Cignacco
a well a very simple way, taking into account that there are things that cannot be measured, there is a filmer thinker that observes not everything that counts can be counted and not everything that can be counted counts. So this means that there are things that are not measurable, for example, commitment, loyalty, camaraderie, a good business atmosphere, with clients, with suppliers, with employees, workplace that has a very important emotional tone, a positive emotional tone, this cannot be measured in a precise way as you measure for example, market share or productivity. But this is very important, because we saw that we need relationships, strong relationship to fulfill this objective, there is a very counterintuitive theory that I expose in my book that is that many companies go directly to achieve these key performance indicator, productivity, profitability market share, however, counter intuitively, when you focus on developing strong, long lasting relationship with suppliers, employees, community members, these key performance indicators that are the result of the company interdependence with the stakeholders are achieved naturally, effortlessly. Why because you care for suppliers, you care for customer, you care for employees, you support them, and they care for you. They contribute meaningfully and unconditionally to your company. Instead, when you do not care for them, the employees are likely to leave the company, customers are likely to choose other other companies, the suppliers are likely to replace you. So this means that, as I mentioned, interdependent is key. Many companies are not aware that they cannot succeed on their own, they're not an island, they are connected to others, and all the other stakeholders are contributing with value to the company, we need them on our side. So this is the challenge of paradigm, instead of focusing on our own objectives. When we develop what we call Win Win agreements, these mean agreement that are mutually profitable to our company, but also to other stakeholders, these stakeholders will be content will be happy will be certified, and they're more prone to support our company without forcing them because at the end, you cannot force customer to come to your company, you cannot force employees to stay in your company, because they are free. And they can't decide to leave your company to choose other companies. So but when you support them, they tend to reciprocate in a very, in a very effortless way in a very kind way in a very, obviously positive way.
Greg Voisen
Well, and statistically I know you've proven much of this. And there are probably doomsayers out there. But I would say here in the United States, we've seen companies like Patagonia and Whole Foods, John Mackay, and people like this, that have really built organizations and turned them into Aesop's. So there's an ownership in that so they feel like they have a piece of it. And that's a big factor. So how can leaders cultivate a Compassionate Leadership style one? And what are the first steps for them actually becoming more compassionate and developing a business quote unquote, like Whole Foods or like Patagonia?
Dr. Bruno Cignacco
Pretty interesting question first. So we have to say that everyone in a company is a leader, not only the one at the top of the company, but if you are, for example, cleaning the toilet, you're a janitor. You can also lead others so this means that regardless of your role, you can always leave and also inspire people and allow them to follow with your vision with your passion for sub leader should take into account that business mission shouldn't be only economically based. This means that we shouldn't be focusing on our base Since purpose only on economic aspects such as profit market share, productivity should be seen, as mentioned, the new generation of company hub business mission that have a social impact means impact on the society in different on different stakeholders a positive impact, they want to live a better world, but also they have a positive impact on the environment. I like Patagonia, you mentioned that they say in their on their website, they said that the main shareholder is the planet. I like this metaphor. The main shareholder, metaphorically speaking is the planet. So this means that they're contributing to environmental project, and they have been doing for a long time, and they're very successful. So this is the first point but also leader should be humble. I mentioned in one of the appendices of the book that leaders, most of the leaders are, I know, we told, and they don't want to hear different opinions are not open to diverse opinions. And this is very important to change this view. When you're humble as a leader, you take into account different views, views from different department views from customer view from people that could be a lower in the hierarchy doesn't matter, because you can always learn you adopt what we call a learning mindset, or a growth mindset. And this means that you are prone to adapt your views. And also you are prone to receive when you are wrong, because many leaders are very arrogant, or they don't want to say when they are wrong, but also leader will also accept that are very compassionate also save the hard facts. For example, if the company is not doing well has a lot of negative customer reviews. Well, we have to check what we're doing wrong. Can we learn from this? Challenge, this challenging experience? So can we add more value? How can we adopt a much more Sarab in attitude toward customer and this leader will also are prone to what would be called to call what we call cross departmental meetings. This means meetings that include representatives from different department, the marketing department, the administrative department of finance, to analyze every single topic, why? Because they don't call only the specialist, they want to hear diverse views on the topic, because most of the topics in business are very complex. And they want to have a multi dimensional view of the on the issue and avoid any blind spots. So they're very prone to learn. And these leaders are also very supportive, they try to adopt an empathetic view on different stakeholders a positive view, but also I will say a compassionate view. This means that whenever possible, this leader will try to encourage us, for example, employees to have some coaching or to have some mentoring to jump right into the schemes.
Greg Voisen
Well, you know, look, Bruno, you're teaching in the university. And on top of that, my question for you this is a kind of a sidebar question. You know, as we've watched here, over the last, since the pandemic, changes in leadership in Venezuela, then you've got Putin in Russia, you've got potentially another leader coming into the United States, which could take over as president again, none of these gentlemen have much compassion. Yeah, they're leading one of them the free world, country, right. And it's always intrigued me here. We're talking about compassion and business. And the biggest business we have is government. One of the biggest businesses we have is government. And not very many of them are being run with compassion, and understanding. They're being run on metrics and all the other things that you just talked about, what would be your thoughts around Venezuela, Russia, the US, China, North Korea, where we have now seen a takeover of power in many of these places, which is just power and money, power and money.
Dr. Bruno Cignacco
Yes, what that will say I don't generally don't want to talk about politics, but I will say that different government they will have their own style and discover that you mentioned probably have some leeway for a be much more human oriented this mean that even they have their own objectives inside Casio object that could be military objective or political objectives is not enough because at the end, societies are also interdependent. In a society in a country we need each other and the world is in the interdependent no country can subsist survive on its own, we need each other. The principle in international trade and we specialize in international marketing is the principle of interdependent. You cannot be a specialist in everything. So I feel that some leaders, maybe it's one of the one that you mentioned, and others too. It can be be more aware of the interdependence. And this is you cannot survive on a win lose agreement. If you try to win at the expense of others, this is a short lived victory. But what he says is a much more sustainable approach is a seminal approach means that we want a world not only for ourselves, but for our great, great great great grandchildren maybe 200 years time. So this means that maybe these visions or maybe I don't want it to cover any particular leader, but maybe suddenly they have a very short term vision, we'll call it short termism means that they have a very limited view. And this implies that if they don't think about a sustainable way of developing their economies, the social environment, and what we don't know how this will end up this government that you mentioned
Greg Voisen
instead, but yes, how do you? How do you develop these leaders? Or where did these leaders come from? Who've, as I told them, left their ego at the door when they get into a meeting? Because you know, a lot of times no matter if it's a corporation, or it's a government, as you said, the ego sometimes can be so high. And Ken, I want to code be so divisive, in the way in which they speak to people and so on. So what advice would you give to any business, trying to embed compassion into their business model? From the beginning? Because I think sometimes this has to happen from when I start the business, not after the business is going.
Dr. Bruno Cignacco
But important question. So first, so if you are the leader, and you're starting up this business, give a good example. Because there is a lot of research on this, that leader, more there is the behavior in the workplace, and also in relation to other stakeholders when they leave the research center, when you speak to people, for people to work at this company, and act in a seamless way. Not at all, they will take the role model of the leader. So the leader is very important. But also, I would encourage this company that is starting or developing that ask themselves very important reflection question. How can I be more supportive with different stakeholders? Because we depend on each other? How can I be more generous and grateful? And when I talk about this in different training courses, they told me, Oh, we cannot be generous with a stakeholder because we don't have money. We don't have resources. We don't have a finance, finances. But you can be generous with different stakeholders in a very intangible way. What about a manager that is generous with their subordinates, by giving them advice, giving them an ear when they have some problems, giving them the chance to work flexible time when you have some challenges at home? And what about the colleague that is helping a new colleague, a will, for example, son training, or coaching this colleague or mentoring when possible. So this means that being generous, beget more generosity instead, when you're a stingy when you're self centered, these people that you're relating to think luck in the same way, they tend to be not generous, they tend to be they tend to withdraw in many
Greg Voisen
cases, was like you did a lot of studies for this book and observed a lot. And what would be the future trends in compassionate business practices? And where do you believe that this is headed? Here? We are today. 2024. May we if we look forward another 10 years? Where are the trends headed Bruno? And what do you think we can expect given all of the technology that's going to evolve in the next 10 years, everything from the AI to robots that will actually be some of those things replacing people in the workplace for this machine learning
Dr. Bruno Cignacco
3.3 Point technology technology might replace on workers, but whenever the company used new technology, for example, AI or any other technology, there should be always human touch this mean for example, if you send emails, there should offer the possibility for the customer to contact the company on the phone, if you're using AI, where you can offer also the option to for customer to form this company. So this mean that technology should be used alongside will be called the human contact. Another point that I want to highlight that the trend shows that many companies that are becoming more compassionate will give a lot of importance not only to financial statements, for example, balance sheet income statement, if they get a loss or a profit, but also they have also a lot of priority and given a lot of priority to what we call show Shall a statement or socially impact statement where they show for example, how much money they donated to charities, when they show how they reduce the carbon dioxide emissions. This is quite important. Why because companies know that by showing alongside a financial report showing the social and environmental impact report, their reputation will be enhanced. And a company with a high reputation According to research, a bring about better employees mortality employees. Also this company attracts more interesting investors, investors that are focused not only on the profitability, but focus also on social project. And this company also has a better brand image. And results are recognized by the media in a much more positive way.
Greg Voisen
Well, you're certainly a thought leader in this area. And you have created a book which gives people the foundations and the main principles here of the art of compassionate business. And to wrap up our podcast, I would like to ask you this, you know, throughout your journey, as an educator, consultant, writing books, doing all the things you've done, and the research and advocating for compassionate business, what's been the most surprising or impactful lesson that you've learned personally and professionally, from all this work and all your work of knowledge, you know, your whole library of knowledge for Bruno,
Dr. Bruno Cignacco
thank you very much for the question. The most important piece of information that I can convey here is that the most important resource in thesis is not technology is not artificial intelligence is not finance is not information, but is the human being. Because the human being is a major resource is a resource that help companies generate other resources, the human being, for example, an employee can help company generate business plans, innovative products, innovative services, and so on. So this means that the human being adds value continually. But the human being needs to be treated in a supportive and caring way. And the human being go beyond any business strategy and tactics, formulation, the title, the subtitle of my book is main principle for the human or the entity enterprises mean that these principles are timeless. There are perennial principles such as sustainability, compassion, care, and can be applied by small companies, big companies of any sector, will help companies foster long lasting, mutually beneficial relationship with the stakeholders.
Greg Voisen
Well, you have opened my eyes up to a way that businesses and for everybody listening can actually transform how they're operating their business, and supporting the culture to be more mindful of what you are saying, compassionate, compassion, love, understanding, all of these principles that should be being used at business, I just don't think are being used in business as regular, which is why one, you wrote this book, and two, you've had a TEDx talk, and three, you've got a website where people can reach out to you to learn more about what they can do to change. The key point is, is their willingness to change. And I think if something in your business is not going well, you should really look at what Bruno just had to say. Because the reality is, is what he's teaching is to help your business right site itself, from potentially some of the challenges that you face inside the business, simply because you're not paying attention to the people in the business. And I think that's the most important thing. Any final words on that before we end up the podcast?
Dr. Bruno Cignacco
Thank you very much. If final words could be I want to invite the listener to ask themselves these questions. How can I be more generous and supportive with every single stakeholders? This question should be asked at the beginning of the day. And it's a very easy way to start becoming more compassionate, generated a positive cycle of ripple effects within the company or with the stakeholders.
Greg Voisen
Well, Bruno, I'm going to say Dr. Sick Nago. This is a great book, everybody go out and get a copy of this book. Also, go to the website where you can find out more. And that website is I'm going to give the address here in just one minute is humanorientedenterprise.com And we'll have a link to that as well. There you can find Bruno's bio you can find out more about what they do their approach their experience, consultancy service and tailor made workshops and also workshops that they provide. Bruno, thanks for spending a few minutes with us on Inside personal growth talking about your new book, and everything you have. Namaste to you.
Dr. Bruno Cignacco
Thank you very much, Greg.
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Inside Personal Growth with Greg Voisen · Podcast 1122: Your Passport to a New World Beyond Stress, Struggle, and Useless Pain with Guy FinleyToday, we have a special guest who has been with us multiple times over the years—Guy Finley. Joining us from Merlin, Oregon, Guy is the founder of the Life of Learning Foundation Center for Spiritual Discovery. We’re excited to discuss his upcoming event, “Talks in the Pines 2024,” which promises to be a transformative experience. This year’s theme, “Your Passport to a New World Beyond Stress, Struggle, and Useless Pain,” is particularly relevant in our current times.
The Human Condition and Pain
Guy Finley has dedicated his life to exploring the intricacies of human pain and the potential for transcending it. During our conversation, he pointed out that the human condition is wired to seek out and experience various forms of pain—physical, emotional, and spiritual. However, he emphasizes that pain is not just an unavoidable part of our existence but also a crucial element of our learning journey. As Guy put it, “Our own lives are evident, full of meaning in every moment, even if we don’t always understand it at the time.”
Resistance and Awareness
One of the central themes Guy explores is the nature of resistance. He explains that our psychological pain often stems from resisting our experiences and circumstances. This resistance creates a cycle of suffering that prevents us from understanding the deeper meanings of our experiences. He argues that we cannot learn from any moment we resist. Instead, we should see resistance as an invitation to understand and transform our relationship with pain.
Transforming Pain into a Learning Experience
Guy Finley advocates for a shift in perspective—seeing pain not as something to be avoided but as a gateway to greater self-awareness and growth. He describes this transformation process as “using the moment of resistance as a moment of revelation.” By doing so, we can break free from the endless cycle of pain and suffering and move towards a more liberated existence. At the heart of Guy’s teachings is the idea that our suffering continues because of our unconscious complicity in a cycle of resistance and blame. He encourages us to embrace a new paradigm where we see every challenging moment as an opportunity for inner revelation rather than an external conflict to be resisted. This shift in consciousness allows us to use the energy of our pain constructively, leading to profound personal growth and a more harmonious existence.
Join the Talks in the Pines 2024
The upcoming “Talks in the Pines” event is an opportunity to delve deeper into these insights. Whether you attend in person, participate online, or watch the replay, you’ll gain valuable tools to transform your relationship with pain and discover a new world of peace and understanding.
Guy Finley’s wisdom, honed over decades of study and teaching, offers a path to freedom from the struggles that bind us. His message is clear: by understanding and embracing our pain, we can find a way to live without the constant burden of stress and suffering. Don’t miss this chance to embark on a journey of self-discovery and healing.
For more details and to register for the event, please visit the Life of Learning Foundation website.
You may also refer to the transcripts below for the full transciption (not edited) of the interview.
Interview Transcipt -Not EditedEmailDownloadNew TabGreg Voisen
Welcome back to Inside Personal Growth. This is Greg Voisen, the host of Inside Personal Growth. I would think that many of our listeners know who you are Guy Finley is joining us from Merlin Oregon. He's been on the show nine times. He and I were reflecting on that. And I was just looking at the past dates and times that guy has been on Inside Personal Growth and it goes all the way back to January 3 2009. Education The soul, then to touch the timeless mind April 7, 2009. being fearless and free, August 18, 2009, the courage to be free with Guy family, November 2010. Being extraordinary, a new model for success with Guy Finley, December 19, 2011. The seeker the search the sacred guy friendly, December 19, 2011, and the April 2, 2015, the secret of your immortal soul. And not last but not least, but close to it relationship magic. Waking up together, that one was October 28, 2018. And the last one we did which was four years ago, the secrets of success without worry, August 24, 2020. For all of our listeners, we're gonna actually put links in the blog entry. So if you want to go back and listen to some of those wonderful interviews that I had with Guy, there you go, and we'll put links to those books as well, so that you can get them. Good day to you, Guy. How you doing?
Guy Finley
I'm stunned. There's anything that you are not it is your endlessly complete with your actions. Thank you, Greg, glad to be with you again.
Greg Voisen
Well, it's good to have you for Merlin, Oregon. For all of you who don't know much about guy, he is the founder of life of Learning Foundation Center for Spiritual discovery, we are going to be giving you a prep for something that's coming up called the talk in the pines. And the reason is, is because this actually occurs underneath the pine trees is his location in Merlin Oregon. But there's other ways you can attend as well. You can attend in person to this program, you can do the replay package, or you can go for free online attendance only. I will have more details about that. And you can see the full itinerary and we'll have a link to the talk in the Pines 2024 Which this talk is about your passport to new world beyond stress struggle and useless pain. And you know, guy, you and I have been on this show so many times talking about this, and you can never talk about it enough. And I think that human condition is so wired, that it likes to find pain. So and what I mean by that is just not physical pain, but emotional pain, spiritual pain, every kind of pain that we can have. But that's our learning lessons. That's why we call it the life of Learning Foundation, because you learn from these pains. So is pain in your estimation, inescapable destiny of all human means and isn't an unavoidable part of the human experience? That's a pretty big question. I don't know who created that question. Probably you? Because I know you could riff on that one just for an hour?
Guy Finley
Look, it's such a broad question. And I think that honestly, I don't know if there is a more important one. Most of us never even come to a point Greg, where we're willing to ask ourselves, you know, I've been in this body I've had these relationships, these loves these losses 10,000 different relationships. And if I'm honest, there's been more pain than pleasure in all of them. The search for security, the wish to discover what it is that I need to know that I don't all these endless, endless dead ends. However, we want to phrase that idea. So what I intend to talk about and will do at great length over the weekend that you described is can we see as human beings, that our own lives are evident? So the fact that there is no moment that we have ever been in no moment, we can see with our eyes, that doesn't have meaning. If we can agree as a as a context, that life is full of meaning. And that our problem is that from time to time, we don't see it or understand it. But that in retrospect, we can go back and see the meaning of a moment and see that so much of the pain we went through was because we didn't understand the meaning of the moment. Can we get on that same base? Greg?
Greg Voisen
Yeah. Yeah, certainly. Because, look, when these moments that you're speaking of arise, depending on our level of awareness, or consciousness at the time, frequently, those moments were acting on emotion. And it's an emotional based reaction that then creates more pain. So like blurting out at somebody what you're feeling without really thinking about it? Yeah, and then ending up, you know, paying the price for Oh, my God, why'd I put my foot in my mouth? I know, that seems real simple. But that's where it starts, right? We're
Guy Finley
certainly all subject to that, to the whim of an unconscious nature, that is moved by the wind and doesn't know it until it's run aground to use the metaphor. So here's the here's the point, setting the stage for our conversation. If every moment, every event, every condition has meaning to it, what in the name of God is the meaning of all this pain that we have as individuals, and that we experience as a collective consciousness as humanity. Because what I want to help the listeners, the people who join the talk for us today and next month, is I want to get to the point where we start to understand in some small way, that way, the way we are now is that the meaning of the pain in the moment for us is described and defined by the reaction we have to that moment. And we take the reaction to this moment, which is always full of resistance. I want to be clear, I cannot be in psychological pain over any moment. Without something in me first summarily resisting that moment. Can we agree on that? Yeah, I agree. So here is here is a pain that is seemingly on the heels of this resistance, this reaction that is pointing to something outside of me, as responsible for this pain. And what I want to help everyone understand is that all of this time, my god millennia, this immense pain, the UNMISS, the misunderstood meaning of it feeds this constant chain of reactions that we now see flooding the world in this bipolar, self punishing condition called our culture. To where can we actually even suspect that bad perhaps, the moment of this reaction, here's what I'm leading to? Here's the reaction. It's full of resistance. The pain seems to be to the condition, when the pain can't be separated from the resistance we have to it. Can we use the energy in that pain, instead of letting the reaction and the pain use us to drive us one more time through a useless cycle of conflict with others, judging ourselves, so that all we do for all of this pain is just reincarnate and reincarnate, the same old consciousness that doesn't know what to do with the pain other than find someone to blame for it. There's a completely different paradigm, Greg, that's what I'm going to cover with you. And in the talks upcoming, where this immense pain in resistance becomes the passport to a revelation of the unconscious nature responsible for the useless reaction. I
Greg Voisen
agree with you wholeheartedly. My question might be is that resistance seems like it comes from fear. So the question is, why can't people except Except the pain so let's use an example because I think context puts it around it. We live in a world today and we've lived in a world in the past but seems to be more accentuated as a result of social media and instant news on and whatever where we see strike. even fighting we see Gaza we see things going on in Ukraine. See, you know what's happening with Israel, we see a rack we see this. Now we aren't removed from those incidences, we are not we are, we do have a choice. And this is what I say is like, in from a highest level of consciousness and looking at these things, how do I contribute within my community in my world to resolve these issues within my own consciousness, such that it's, I can come to some level of understanding and acceptance for why it is, versus me being resistant to it, and saying, God, damn those Israelis, why are they bombing their goddamn Putin? Why is he fighting with the Ukraine's whatever it might be? And this is the this is the context for this question. The context is, that is pain and suffering. People can either choose to understand and recognize the reason why. And resolve it within sign their own consciousness, or they can resist it. Now we're seeing resistance on campuses today where people are protesting this and all kinds of things. But this has gone on since the beginning of time. This isn't just today. So what the hell's wrong with us? Why can't we get along?
Guy Finley
So you suppose the question, you said, you know, the source of this resistance, you said, is this unabated fear? I want to examine that, and then I'll get into what is our responsibility? Once we've started to understand the deeper aspects of this question. There, there cannot be psychological fear. And I'm not talking about instinctual fear. I opened the door one, you know, late evening here, and there's a bear at my sliding glass door. When I see the bear, my instinctual nature is, you know, oh, my God, and then to slam the door shut. That's an instinctual fear, inescapable, it's part of the survival of the species. We're not talking about instinctual fear. psychological fear does not exist without being identified with some condition in our past. So that you cannot fear a moment without recognizing it. And you cannot recognize a moment without having some frame of reference from something in your immediate or distant past. So that this resistance that I have, to any moment that seems to challenge me, is because something in me says, You know what, you shouldn't be like that. It shouldn't go down like this. Now, I can't judge without the resistance. And without the past that it's coming from all judgment is a formulation of an unconscious nature, bringing the present moment into the context of some comparison, and then deciding by default, all quite mechanical, that this thing is wrong. And I must somehow or other, escape it, change it or be swallowed up by it. Here's the rub. And listeners, this is right down to earth. We cannot learn from any moment that we resist. The moment resistance replaces the wish to understand we are dead in the water. Because resistance by its nature is separation. resistance by its nature is something in me separating me from this condition that I don't want to experience. Are we following? Greg? What is the condition? I don't want to experience? Is it what my mind blames? Or is the condition I don't want to experience is the pain I don't want to experience within me in that moment. Yeah, this is where we begin to dig in. Because if I can make this small discovery, even just intellectually, that my resistance to this person, this place, this circumstance, this global, my resistance doesn't exist without something in me, that has separated me from what I am judging. The path to liberation. The passport to a life without struggle, is the discovery that we have this incredibly unique capacity to realize perfect similarity. have tea with everything that we meet. So that Oh, start
Greg Voisen
going oh, so guy. Sorry. But so if it is beer, and if the underlying cause of the fear, I'm just going to use an example what I think it could be, which in a lot of cases is loss, loss of something. A lot of times people can identify what the loss is first, but usually some kind of loss. Would you agree with that? Yeah. And frequently those two are tied together. Yes.
Guy Finley
But the loss of what? That's my
Greg Voisen
question, yeah.
Guy Finley
Who and what I think I am, is threatened by any moment that comes along, and doesn't correspond to how I've imagined it needs to be, so that I can be secure in my identity. So the bottom line of every form of resistance, is that something is challenging my consciousness who I think I am, when I think I own what I deserve, the moment that's challenged, suddenly, no, I don't want that. I blame you, I judge you I want to control you. The problem that we're looking at, is that I have never achieved what I attempt to overcome, because it is the consciousness that is the problem maker. And the solution to the problem making unconscious nature is a new awareness of it. So that instead of letting resistance, point me to some person or problem as the source of my pain, I understand the pain wouldn't exist without something in me insisting that moment not be the way it is, which by the way is insanity, you cannot change what is what is, is end of story. What it reveals is another story. And that's what we're looking at, can we use the moment of resistance as a moment of revelation? That's,
Greg Voisen
I would say that, that it's an awakening, when somebody can have the realization in their consciousness that this is the this pattern that they've created. And you have this, you know, your passport to the new world beyond stress, struggle and useless pain, you use the word useless pain. The question is, what is the difference between useless and useful pain? Right? In other words, it's like, hey, is there useful pain?
Guy Finley
Yes, yes. And it begins with understanding that we have been suffering, for nothing for the sake of a consciousness to use that word for the sake of an unconscious nature that keeps its continuity in place. By being in unending conflict with anything that challenges its conditioning. So that useless pain is what is is, is in our complicity. With the ongoing continuity of this reincarnation of conflict in nature, useful pain is the beginning of laying down all of these demands that are pressed upon me in that moment. So now I can begin to use the resistance as the point of revelation that it's intended, and find the invitation in that moment to let go of that useless suffering. And in that sudden shift in turning around as Christ called it metanoia turned around, that's the meaning of the word repent, in the moment that my consciousness can turn around, and instead of looking outside of itself for something to blame, see that the pain is an unconscious element in its own demands. Now we're on to something. Now we know what it means what Buddha was talking about the Four Noble Truths, all of the teachings come alive, because now we recognize, ah, I've been complicit in this. The suffering is continuous because of my complicity. I have to stop. I don't stop because I want to stop I stopped because I see if I don't, this is just going to go on ad infinitum, as it has for 1000s and 1000s of years.
Greg Voisen
So look, I happened to Google something while you were talking. Because you're a teacher. Really, your teacher was Vernon Howard did a New Life Foundation in Boulder City. Now he's been deceased for a long time. But I'm not certain if this was your first book, but the intimate enemy was really talking about the awakening to a higher awareness to provides the only truth and I know this is taking you back. Truth strength, you need to Walk into fearless future into a fearless future. Okay, now the talk in the Pines is being influenced by all of this prior wisdom knowledge that you have acquired through all of your teachers prior to you at this point. And you stated in the event that we, that you said anything is about, we don't want it is about reason for the suffering. The reason for this suffering, can you expand on it is, you know, it's like, Hey, we're not talking about your event in the pines, we're talking about the vet that triggers the pain or suffering, right. And so we I want to differentiate that from my listeners, this has nothing to do with the event at the pines, because of the event in the pines, you're going to actually release this pain and suffering when you walk away. After hearing these talks, we're going to talk about a triggering event, we're
Guy Finley
going to discover as difficult as it is for us to admit my existing relationship with pain with my God and Father who this and my mom who that my brothers who this and the wars that never end and the world upside down. And this glut group and my relationship with pain has never changed. The only thing that has changed is what I blame for it, period. If we can be honest enough to admit that to ourselves, I have a 10,000 different relationships, I'm 75 years old, 100 bad relationships a year. I mean, every last one of those pains, I have the same relationship with what to immediately resist what I said was causing that conflict. So if we don't awaken to a new relationship with our own pain, nothing will ever change for me as an individual, let alone for the world at large that you and I are a part of what is unfolding around us. That's it.
Greg Voisen
That is really what the talk in the Pines is all about everybody in DC. So not only do you get the opportunity to interface with other people in a community, who have been suffering, and your own suffering, you get to learn from all of guy's teachings, and his years and years of speaking about this, because if you really looked at, I'm just gonna call it that maybe his soapbox. his soapbox is always been about this. There's a common theme and every one of the books. If you go back to Vernon Howard, and you want to look at the teachings from where he this came from, it is he has been influenced drastically by those philosophies and teachings. And for good reason. He's carried them forward from the last generation to this generation. I don't know who cared for him after he's done. But the reality is, somebody will. The point here is is treat yourself to go to your passport to the new world beyond stress, struggle and useless pain. Now, how can pain actually be people right now are saying, Okay, I've heard what you've said, I want to apply this. I'm at least what am I gonna say? I'm at least accepting to hear what the two of you have to say. But how can the pain actually be a gift that helps a free us from pain? So how can the pain be a gift that helps us free us from pain so the pain is helping us free us from the pain
Guy Finley
in every moment that any of us become remotely aware of some kind of pain. The pain that we see as a problem is actually the appearance of an invitation. The invitation in the pain is for us to first recognize like we just discussed, I've had the same relationship with pain for 10,000 years, the world has had the same relationship with pain. Not one of these relationships has released me or the world from this pain. Now you asked something earlier I pick it up now. How does this change not just me, but the world because we will mostly say most of us that we are interested in a better world we would like To see the hatred, God willing, be mitigated. We would like to see men and women be able to have a conversation without being in an argument. Why is that impossible for us now? Because we don't know what to do with our pain in those moments. Here's what I'm suggesting. What if? Big question, I recognize that my whole life every time and Greg got you up advocate, something happens, I'm in pain in my pleasant to be around when I'm in pain.
Greg Voisen
Are you asking me that question?
Guy Finley
Is anybody suddenly they're in pain or pleasant to be around?
Greg Voisen
No, they're usually agitated. Yeah,
Guy Finley
exactly. And when I'm agitated, you know the story. He comes home, he's angry at you at work. He's in pain. His wife says, How's it go? He kind of lets her have a blast of that negativity he's experiencing. She then goes and goes to tuck the kid in the bed. And she's still reeling from this unmitigated, undeserved attack. And she's tense, she passes along that pain to the kid, the kids laying there, the dog is licking itself next to the bed, the kid gets up and kicks the dog. And you can see that this pain is kicked down the road kicked down the road, and the road never changes, because the thing just comes back and back and back. What if Greg, we understood that so thoroughly, we were willing, for the first time in our life, to agree to be present to the pain instead of trying to pass it along. That's the real,
Greg Voisen
that's what you're going to talk about during the pines. Now, I show you how to do you and I have had a lot of discussions about this over the years. And whether you want to call it being unconscious, or I'm not in touch with what I can do by reprogramming my subconscious. The reality is most people guy, I'm gonna say most people, even me, there's something that happens that times where I just totally have a lapse of who I am. Why I'm here, right? Because this, this big thing called the ego takes over and says I got to be right. And so it does something to hurt other people. If we're gonna go back to the psychological issues here, we could say, Okay, well, you talk about ego, call it whatever you want. But the reality is, there is a side of you that you don't fully understand. And people will say, Well, how could somebody commit that kind of crime? How could they do that injustice, I was reflecting with someone yesterday, this is quite appropriate, was on 60 minutes about the guys who put 330 Jews to death in the last days before they were captured at Auschwitz. And I think many people probably saw that. And yet they were drinking champagne and partying and being with the girls and all the rest of them, there's like, how do you take that out of your mind? And be so cruel, right? And and at the same time, then have a party every evening after you've just executed women and children? I mean, it's like, really? Right. So do you think that they're a little bit unconscious?
Guy Finley
Well, what they are, is sleeping human beings, who are fully identified with something that lends them a very strong sense of self. And the only way to keep that sense of self in place, is to remove or otherwise control or destroy anything that challenges it. So that model, that paradigm is really no different than the moment in which I'm cut off on the freeway. And if I had a laser gun, I would obliterate the fool who dared be on the same lane as I was at the same time, so that we we can begin to understand it. And actually, Greg find in our hearts a new way of being in relationship with all of these actions. Critically, not just what other people do. But oh my god, how did I cross that line? What was going on? And the answer is, please. Our reactions Gregg, are binary. They are purely mechanical and purely binary. There's no intelligence in an unconscious reaction, save for instinctual like I described. Now, what is the binary nature of this reaction? I want this. I don't want that. End of story. You can't find a React And that isn't predicated on, oh, I want that. Oh, my God, I don't want that every reaction binary, meaning perfectly mechanical. Now, what is the nature of this constant? Oh, I don't want this. I want this. What is it that blinds me to my actions other than being identified with that desire that is divided up into? I don't want this, I want that. I want to be the one who's seen as the superior officer, I want to be the one who never has anybody spoken to speak to me that way. So I'm simply pointing out that we are asleep. And that we're asleep to a nature that is constantly triggered into a binary reaction of want and not want. And until we have the awareness of this reaction, and what gives birth to it, we cannot use anything that happens to us, because we will always be the machine living out what not what, what not what, that's it for us. You say something to me, I have a reaction. Why does Greg say that to me? The minute that I'm identified with that reaction, am I in the conversation anymore? Or am I in the past trying to figure out how to sort through? What should be the response to what you've said? That's all we're looking at here, Greg, as far as I'm concerned, can I have a relationship with this unconscious resistance with resistance that cannot be escaped? Let's clarify this. Resistance is a crucial element in creation, Yin, Yang, positive, negative, affirm, deny resistance cannot be escaped without resistance, there would be no revelation of any kind whatsoever. So resistance is built into my life. But can I use the resistance that is the product of a mind that doesn't want anything that challenges its egoic? Structure? Can I use that resistance? So that instead of serving the egoic structure, and its continual suffering, and what it places out on everybody else, can I use that to turn around and start to understand, I wonder if I can be the observer of this reaction, instead of the unwitting servant to it, we make that small change, and everything starts to change, because for the first time, we actually start to realize, Oh, my God, I've been unconsciously serving every thought, feeling reaction from my whole life, without ever understanding what I do to myself, let alone everybody else, when I'm just this machine. Yes, I want that. No, I don't know. I don't, yes, I do. We can change that, Greg. And when we do, we change not only our own consciousness, in whatever degree, we're willing to meet the truth of ourselves, that sets us free, we begin to change our relationship with everybody else around us. So that instead of passing the buck of that blasted negativity, now we begin to pass along, not just the wish to understand, but the capacity to do so. One last thought. And when I don't punish somebody, for being who I don't want them to be, they can no longer blame me for the pain they're in. Because I've decided to die to myself to the extent I can, so that new love can live and that they might have an opportunity to see the same unconscious nature operating in them.
Greg Voisen
Well, if I was to word it, I would say where compassion meets resistance, compassion for oneself, love for oneself, self love, to really understand that because the emotion of that is, in my humble opinion, stronger than the emotion of the resistance. The point is, is we do as you say, we will do anything to stay out of pain. Okay? And I think that, whether you were to give a technique or not, if you can meet those moments, with compassion and understanding for yourself and the other person, you can remove the resistance and the pain for yourself and the other person.
Guy Finley
Because you turn the table, yeah, the resistance no longer becomes your identity. It's choices no longer become your actions. Now, your choice and your action is to use the presence of that unconscious nature to become aware of it and it is in that awareness. Love is greater than hatred. There is no such thing. There is no such thing. What does what did Einstein say? Darkness of light is the absence of light. So if I bring myself into the light of that moment to see this nature, by doing so, I've actually changed something of the observer, you know, quantum physics, that you change the observer, you change the observed. Right.
Greg Voisen
And I, my sense is no matter how we deliver this message in the spoken word today on this podcast, there is an energy at work if you allow it to be. And it's most exemplified, in my humble opinion by somebody like the Dalai Lama, you know, there's a vibration that he puts off, that most spiritual leaders of that magnitude put off, that are really just about compassion, like holding compassion for the world, even in these times, because there isn't anything else they can do. They just did the interview with the Pope. And it was all about, hey, the only way to get through this is just like what you're saying, meeting that moment with compassion versus resistance. And I think we've come to a pivotal point in the history of our world, that we all need to understand that the resistance is what creates the problem and the pain, not the compassion for the resistance.
Guy Finley
Exactly. Right. Hmm. 100% Yeah, exactly. So,
Greg Voisen
I mean, if we can all get a board with the same thing, it would be simple. Our job here today is to expose you to actually going someplace or attending online, which is called your passport to a new world beyond stress, struggle and useless pain, you're going to learn a lot. If you go up for the three days. To Marylyn, Oregon, under the pines. It's a beautiful location I've been there. Guy, we're gonna put a link up to the talks in the pine, we'll put links up to the path past podcast, so people really want to. And if you really want to, you can just go to the online wisdom school. He's also got a store. There's hundreds of hours of recordings of guys speaking, you can you can join him on is it Wednesday nights,
Guy Finley
I spent it. I speak for free on Wednesday nights, right? Saturday mornings, and Sunday mornings, nothing to join streamed out to the world. Everyone's welcome.
Greg Voisen
So you can check all that out. And then you can you can basically go go in there, but it's really Guy Finley dot o RG. Also, you can plug it in Google life of learning, Center for Spiritual discovery, you'll get there that way. We'll put links to all that pleasure having you back on the show, again, this time not really talking about a book. But talking about something way more important than a book. And that is three days of immersiveness in a beautiful spot, to actually give your self time to reflect on what you can do to transform yourself and not beat your up self up so badly. I love you, buddy.
Guy Finley
I would say that we talked about the book of life today. Yeah, the light, our discussion is crucial. And we must continue it. We can't just acknowledge these truths, we must act that knowledge. I can't stress that strongly enough. Thank you, Greg, I appreciate the time the opportunity more than I can say, for letting me share these ideas with the people that I know follow you and are interested in your work? Well, look,
Greg Voisen
I say to people, and you've said this before, I think I remember hearing it, there's a lot of pathways up the mountain. And I don't care if you're Muslim, or your Jew or your Christian, or whatever religion you are. I've said to my listeners, many times, I've found that religion has done more to divide us than unite us. And I'll keep saying this for as long as I live. Because the reality is, is you need content, like what guy is bringing to the world to actually really understand that the fundamental truths of all of these lie in these philosophical points that he's making. And religion has is, again, just one big philosophy. The other thing is, is that guy is really committed, so committed to this. I want my listeners to hear this. And he's been doing this for years and years and years and Though he isn't making a living off of this, this isn't like hey, go tied to guy or the, or the life of Learning Foundation. Because he needs your money. He does it because he's 100% committed to. And I'm not going to say the truth, but I'll say the big tea the truth that you find with inside yourself. When you awaken the wisdom with inside yourself, you find these tools are there. They aren't something that you have to go someplace to get. There is something that you have to find within your own heart. You find them within your heart, and they stay there forever.
Guy Finley
So that because you because they stay there forever, because you find out. They were forever. They're just waiting. Yeah, you are
Greg Voisen
born with them. You are born with them. Well, my love and blessings to you and all the folks at the life and Learning Foundation, who I've interacted with for this podcast. Thank you so much for taking the time. Namaste to you. Appreciate you and all that you're doing. We'll see you in the pine.
Guy Finley
Thanks so much, Greg.
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Inside Personal Growth with Greg Voisen · Podcast 1121: Exploring the Healing Powers of Manuka Honey with David Noll, Founder of Pacific Resources InternationalWe’re joined today by David Noll, the founder of Pacific Resources International (PRI), a company dedicated to bringing the unique benefits of Manuka honey from New Zealand to the United States. David’s journey with Manuka honey began during his 13 years in New Zealand, where he discovered the incredible properties of this natural product.
A Sweet Beginning
David’s adventure started not with a business plan, but with a love for surfing. New Zealand’s pristine beaches and surf-friendly waters lured him to stay longer than he initially planned. It was here that he first encountered Manuka honey, a dark, potent honey with a distinct taste and remarkable health benefits. What began as a local delicacy has now become a cornerstone of his business and a staple in health-conscious households worldwide.
Manuka Honey: Not Just Any Honey
Manuka honey stands out due to its unique properties, particularly its high levels of Methylglyoxal (MGO), which gives it powerful antibacterial qualities. Unlike other honeys, Manuka honey retains its potency even at body temperature, making it effective for both digestive health and wound treatment. PRI ensures the quality of its honey through rigorous testing, verified by independent labs, and transparency with consumers via QR codes on product jars.
Building Consumer Awareness
Introducing Manuka honey to the US market was no easy feat. Initially, consumers were skeptical, and awareness was low. David and his team tackled this challenge by educating retailers and consumers through seminars, blogs, and influencer collaborations. Their persistence paid off, and today, Manuka honey is a recognized health product available in major stores like Whole Foods, Sprouts, and on Amazon.
A Philosophy of Wellness
David’s dedication to wellness stems from his own childhood health struggles. Suffering from multiple allergies and asthma, he found relief through natural health remedies his father introduced. This personal history fuels his passion for promoting health through natural products. David’s commitment to quality and authenticity is evident in every jar of PRI Manuka honey, which remains unprocessed and rich in natural nutrients like pollen, propolis, and royal jelly.
Expanding the Product Line
Beyond honey, PRI offers a variety of products infused with Manuka honey, including skin creams and throat lozenges. These products leverage the honey’s therapeutic properties, providing consumers with natural solutions for various health concerns. David’s innovative approach has helped PRI to stand out in a crowded market, offering products that genuinely improve health and wellbeing.
Customer Stories and Testimonials
David shares numerous stories of how Manuka honey has positively impacted lives. From aiding digestive health to improving skin conditions, customers regularly report significant benefits from using PRI products. These testimonials reinforce the value of Manuka honey and motivate David and his team to continue their mission of promoting natural health.
Looking Forward
As PRI continues to grow, David remains committed to maintaining the highest standards of quality and authenticity. By working closely with long-term beekeeping partners in New Zealand, PRI ensures that every jar of Manuka honey is as effective and pure as possible. For those new to Manuka honey, David recommends starting with a lower MGO level to experience its benefits and then adjusting as needed.
In summary, David Noll’s journey from a surf enthusiast to a pioneer of Manuka honey in the US is a testament to the power of natural products and the importance of dedication and education in building consumer trust.
For those interested in exploring the benefits of Manuka Honey, PRI offers a range of products available online and in stores, backed by a commitment to quality and transparency.
GREAT NEWS! Manuka Honey, PRI is also offering a one time 15% discount for their products using “15HONEY” discount and a daily 10% discount for our listeners by using “Greg” as code for a limited time. If you want to sign up for the newsletter, you may also use the code “15HONEY”.
Happy Listening!
You may also refer to the transcripts below for the full transciption (not edited) of the interview.
Interview Transcipt -Not EditedEmailDownloadNew TabGreg Voisen
Welcome back to Inside Personal Growth! This is Greg Voisen, the host of Inside Personal Growth. And joining us from Carpinteria, California is David Noll. And David is the founder of a company called PRI - Pacific Resources International. David, good day to you! Thanks for being on Inside Personal Growth.
David Noll
Thanks, Greg for having me. It's always a blessing to talk about the benefits of manuka honey and of course it New Zealand all their products are great products. They're a breadbasket of the world. And manuka honey is just one of those ones that stands out in the breadbasket.
Greg Voisen
Well, and you started this very young and I'm gonna give my listeners a little bit of background about in a minute hold up one of the products hopefully we can get that so that it's in focus this is one I'm gonna hold up during the course of this interview more products because this the amount of products David has, but I met David's sales manager at the natural products West Expo and most of my listeners know I go there and I try and pick out not very many companies four to five that I want to profile on the podcast, because I'm enthusiastic about what they're doing, how they're doing it, and the actual health benefits of their product and the sustainability at which those products are actually manufactured and brought in his case into the US from New Zealand. And I'm going to tell him a bit Pacific resource International was founded by David is journey began a long time ago when you go to the website, you see a picture of him and some ragged shorts and a T shirt. And, and it was his love for manuka honey and his family. And then in the US after living in New Zealand for 10 years. Dave David, years 13 Okay, on your thing here it says 10 It says David knew the incredible benefits of the honey firsthand. His company became the first company to introduce manuka honey to the US now that's, that's a huge statement. Yeah, writing active test results to ensure quality. Today, PRI remains a family owned business in Carpinteria. And carrying on big as David's legacy is promoting healthy living. And I these products can be found in Whole Foods, sprouts, lessons, mothers, markets, moms, you can get them all over the place, but you can also get them at their website, and they'll ship them to you direct. And they've even got some really creative products, and I'm gonna hold up one for my audience. They've got these, like little great nuggets, and honeys and meant, so just go to the website and learn more about it. Because it really is phenomenal. Now, you know, you said
David Noll
if they want to mention your name, when they place their order, they get an extra 10% off.
Greg Voisen
Okay, we'll do that. So if you mentioned inside personal growth, or we'll have a link, and you can mention Greg voice and they'll give you 10% off of this. So that was nice of you to do. So can you share the story that inspired you to start Pacific resource.
David Noll
I lived in New Zealand for 13 years, mainly because I was a surf bum when I first arrived, and there were just beaches after beaches after beaches, with nobody on them and some of the surf was very incredible. We're probably one of our best days, when we were out just surfing our brains out a bunch of cows came down on a hot day and just sat in the water to cool off. And that was about the only people we saw on some of these beaches was excellent surf. So you know, I was traveling around the world a little bit. But when I got to New Zealand, it was so beautiful. And it was so many nice beaches. I just decided to say the people were great. And of course I met my wife there after a couple of years being in New Zealand so that was a big reason to stay on in New Zealand for so long. your
Greg Voisen
better half. Yeah. Her name is Jamie. Is that correct?
David Noll
No. My wife is Linda, Jamie's our youngest daughter. Okay.
Greg Voisen
Well, Jamie was the one who sent out the product. So, you know, you you faced all kinds of challenges when introducing manuka honey. And again it's it's now gotten to a point where you know it's carried in Costco people see it err, but they don't know much about it. And I've noticed, as I kind of walked through, because most of my listeners, I would assume a lot of them go to Costco. You don't see it jumping off the shelf, right? So yeah, I know you are a purist when it comes to this. And it was relatively an unknown product in the EU us. How did you help to bring up the visibility of this product and make it what it is today? Because you still are one of the frontier leaders in this? Yeah, it
David Noll
was a hard going. It's in some cases, it's still an uphill battle, because we're after probably 20 years now talking about manuka honey. It's taken off in a lot of places around the world much easier than in the US. And of course, you know, we got called all kinds of names in the beginning of making the claims that Dr. Peter Mullan, found in New Zealand, for its effectiveness against digestive issues and wound treatment. And so it was just you had to start the ground ground level, and just start talking about it, going around doing seminars, getting retailers together to educate them. Prior to manuka honey, we were doing all kinds of different types of men, the New Zealand honeybees, and the manuka honey actually was given to us for free originally considered to be a baker's honey. And so we they have so much of it, it was a dark color, and not as sweet as your clovers and some of the other monies that are out there. And so it was never very popular Monico until Dr. Peter Mullan started to discover some of its unique properties. And then that started on the road where it's got so many different varieties.
Greg Voisen
What are David some of those unique properties my listeners are going on? I know a lot of them probably are aware of some of these, but you know, you just I just want to show this to my listeners. Okay. And there's a reason why you see the little emblem that says m geo 300 Plus, yes, to 50 plots. So NGO 500 Plus, explain that and explain some of the, what we're going to call therapeutic medicinal values for utilizing this honey in your tea or in your baking or wherever you're going to use it.
David Noll
Right. Fortunately, when they first started setting there was very little known about except that Dr. Peter Mullan had had very good success with some of his digestive patients. So he dived in and started looking at componentry of manuka honey and found out the unique manuka factor, which he didn't know a name for yet, which is methyl glyoxal, which is NGO. And just recently, in the last two or three years now, the MPI government division in the US, New Zealand made mgL the standard for activity in Manuka Honey, there's a lot of people out there and this is where the skullduggery comes in. There's a lot of people that have different brandings they put different numbers. They don't always put an NGO number but that is the official, active ingredient network glyoxal. It makes it there are three or four other ones that combined with a metal box, although we don't want to. It's a long thing. What
Greg Voisen
is metal guy? What is methylglyoxal? Well simply put,
David Noll
it's a special ingredient that only manuka honey has to a great proportion that when you ingest it like when you ingest most raw honeys, your body temperature 98.6 will even out some of the properties that go in with a regular honey methylglyoxal doesn't get affected by that. So he can go into your system and help build your immune system and at the same time, take care of bad bugs like H Pylori, and stuff in your stomach and things. So that's the big thing is heat tolerant manuka honey. It doesn't have that. The other part of it is that it's very high and it's antibacterial activity. So it's good for a whole lot of things we get why
Greg Voisen
why is its viscosity so dense in comparison to a normal honey my honey, people out there need to know when you get when you get a bottle of this. Okay, it's actually you stick the spoon into it. You can't get it to go like this
David Noll
out right? Yeah, most most raw honeys will go like that we call it a creaming process, just to keep it from getting too hard. So we create Getting the honey to at low temperatures, sometimes in big drums for several weeks until it comes to that consistency. Because most of your clear runny honeys have been filtered, heated, and they're really just a sweetener, there's no benefit to them. Usually after they're just liquid height. And you oftentimes you'll see a liquid honey, it'll start to crystallize get hard rocks in it, because the sugars haven't been blended properly in the honey. So we cream all these honeys at very low temperatures. So that we retain all the pollen, all the propolis all the royal jelly, eat a little bit of beeswax. So you're not just getting a honey, you're getting a complete food all together. That's
Greg Voisen
really important for everybody to understand. Because, you know, all these other honeybees are almost like homogenized. It's almost like modernization process. where yours is a lot more natural, though. How do you ensure that the quality and the authenticity of this manuka honey that PRI imports that comes in from New Zealand is sustained? Do you have your own hives out there in New Zealand? Still? Are you relying on farmers who are growing all this organically and bringing it in? And then the second part of this question and keep it in mind is, you know, I've been told with Australia and New Zealand honeys, because I did pick up some Australian honey was a while I was there as well, that it's the only organic honey. Now, I didn't really know that. But can we make that claim because of how far the bees go and where they get it and what plants they get it from? So explain a little bit about that. Because I don't think too many people understand that. Well, the first thing,
David Noll
which is the hardest hurdle for most manuka producers is the testing process. You have to test every Georgia Tech, if you want to show your listeners, the lid of our jars there, you have to see that it's all sealed. Yeah, just there's a sticker on there has a QR code on the top. Yeah, yeah, that's it. We are the only company that puts a QR code on there that takes you directly to independent labs. And they can look up for that jar exactly how much NGO and all the other component tree Wow, Pacific, we test our product three times. Because this is where the skullduggery creeps in, people will often test one barrel, test one out of five barrels, and then just call it all the same, put a label on it. They did some testing some not because it expensive process to do the testing. It goes to an independent lab, they come back with the report. And we do that three times once when it's harvested once when it's bottle, and then the third time when it's exported to us. We have that report. And that's that's the only way you can really be assured. Six times seven times out of 10 most producers and labels out there you'll see will be pretty close to their label. But a lot of them aren't even anywhere close.
Greg Voisen
So do you actually does PRI have its own bees and hives and Honey Are you getting this from the bee harvesters in New Zealand.
David Noll
We're working with the same tree now for beekeeping families that we've been working with for the last 30 some years. In fact, we're on the second generation with some of them. Their family operated businesses, they take great pride in producing high quality products. And they've been around for generations. So they know all about beekeeping. we shy away from some of the industrial side of the manuka production, just because the temptation is there to blend and to mix. So we keep ours down to three or four and that's only because not all of them can supply everything that we need
Greg Voisen
and what regions what regions of New Zealand is it North Island South Island in Australia, what regions are you actually importing this honey from?
David Noll
Most of our stuff will either come from the Bay of Plenty or a place called I just slipped my mind for a minute. It's further south Hawke's Bay. Okay. It's another place that has great manuka production. You can have places in New Zealand that have manuka and the harvest is never any good because nobody knows. It could be soil conditions, rain conditions, but the Bay of Plenty Hawke's Bay, the Gisborne area and then the South Island, we get some from the South Island. Do you
Greg Voisen
get a from as far south as like queens, Queensland or no? Oh, no
David Noll
more, it would be more towards the west coast. Okay. Okay, Nelson over to the west coast because it gets to Queensland, the the environment gets drier and not as prolific with the Florin bottom.
Greg Voisen
I know Nelson well, so kind of that Christchurch Nelson area now this one says Australia on it. And so were in Australia, because Australia is a very big region. Yes,
David Noll
it is. And most of this comes from the east coast of Australia, where they have plenty of rain and their more tropical conditions. While on the East Coast, they're really good at what you have to remember about Australia is that they have at Manuka trees, different varieties, New Zealand only has one. And Australia also has the same one there. And that's the only one of those 80 varieties that actually produce this high quality manuka honey. And being
Greg Voisen
cute code on the outside really is the thing that people need to look for. And the other thing I wanted to ask you is, you know, you've been doing this a very long time, you've built up a nice business, how is consumer awareness or perception perception of manuka honey change since you first started PRI, because, you know, you said it was tough to get going. I don't believe it's as tough today because you have distribution in all these major markets sprouts and other market moms and all kinds of Whole Foods. But your distribution has really exploded, hasn't it? Oh,
David Noll
yeah. And then of course, you know, our good friend Amazon, because of tremendous the consumer has come miles from when they first saw most people didn't know what it was Howard. But the benefit of a nougat hiney is, is that it sells itself when people use it. And it's a good quality, it actually fixes the conditions that they're trying to address. And that's what's kept going for so long. These years, it just works. And people love that when something works, they bite over again, what's happened recently in the last five or six years, is that people have educated themselves. And they know a lot about the NGO level now, where before they would give them a nuke a honey, I will call it Brand X, Maya had a 16 plus or 12 Plus on it. They tried it no results. Because the people just put manuka honey on there sold it for a high price. And when you test there, honey very low mgL levels. And so people got disillusion for a while. And so the people started educating themselves on the internet, about manuka honey. Of course, we did again, we did seminars, you know, we did all kinds of stuff, blogs and had influencers to get the message out there about, you've got to have that NGO level. And now, you everybody's the same. We started out with a 60 NGO level many years ago. Yeah,
Greg Voisen
this one here says 50 Plus,
David Noll
yeah, that's a blend, right and right, that's a that's a good entry level honey for most people. The 60 Plus is the one we actually started with. And it seemed to take care of eight to 90% of our consumers. But then as they started growing the business and doing more testing, they found out that now we have all the way up mtos up to 1000. Now I'm not telling anybody go out and buy a 500 or 300 or 1000 mg a level honey, because you probably don't need it. And if you want to spend the money, okay, it's your money you spend it. These are for acute symptoms, like Mersa on the skin, some kind of types of cancer, very acute conditions of h pylori digestive problems, then you can get into those higher doses, but for the average person, you can start at 60 NGO or maybe 100 or top out at 200 NGO. Most people don't need the higher strikes, but I got tired of arguing with people. And so we carry everything. That's
Greg Voisen
very smart. Now talk with us about your you've gotten Wroclaw scissors, you have hand creams, okay, but you you've really expanded your product line quite a bit. Yeah. Unlike many other or manufacturers, they haven't done this. And I just want to do acknowledge you on the hand lotion, and how well that actually works. Yeah, yeah, it, I have some issues with skin because I'm fair complected and especially the back of my hands, right. And I've noticed that since I've been using your product, the skin is much smoother, I feels better. The other thing is the healing properties. I want to get into that, because you have a personal philosophy toward well influence our eyes toward wellness, that really influenced you doing this. And so I'd like to know a little bit about your personal philosophy on wellness, and why you chose to kind of go in all these other arenas with these products. Oh, well, I
David Noll
come from a very hard upbringing, I had 13 allergies when I was born. I had all kinds of I had asthma, all kinds of things that my dad turn to health food products at a very early age to try to save me from the antibiotics and all the other drugs that they were trying to pour down the probably in the five to 10 year age group, you know, I might, I was on the road to get thick, thick glasses, hearing aids, because of the antibiotic antibiotics. They were feeding me all the time, my dad decided there's got to be a better way. And so he started doing research started giving me rawmill Vitamin C 100% holy bread. So we got into health stuff very early age. So that and to be honest, that saved me. That saved me from maybe an early death, or even the glasses and the hearing aids, you know, at a very young age.
Greg Voisen
Did you Did you ever hear David, if you follow, you're about the same age, we're in the same age category. I think John Robins talk about Baskin Robbins in his dad, and his dad's health was going down the hill. And he didn't know why his son didn't want to inherit a billion dollar business, Baskin Robbins. And he said, I'm not gonna eat that lousy ice cream, whatever. And then his dad had diabetes, heart condition, whatever. His dad then went on the diet and the lifestyle that John was living. And he got 20 more years he went off all his diabetes medication, he went off all his heart medication, all from lifestyle change. I just story, very similar to what you've you've done with yourself?
David Noll
No, it's amazing when you feed the body what it needs repair itself. Yeah,
Greg Voisen
totally. So now shares, personal stories or customer feedback that might highlight the impact of manuka honey, on people's health. Your website is just a plethora of information you've got you've got people out there that have given testimonials. But if you would share a little bit of that, because I think it'll help my listeners better understand what people are using it for, and what's actually happening once they use it. Yeah, I think
David Noll
there's a lot of, excuse me, people that think it's a cure all. But basically what manuka honey does, it strengthens your immune system. So that you can fight off whatever it is digestive issues, cancers, skin treatment, you know, your your skin problems start in the stomach, you know, your skin is the biggest organ in your body. And so your stomach, if your digestive tract is off, your skin is going to be one of the first things to show you no problems. So it's very important. Digestion is nine tenths of the law. And so manuka honey has helped so many people, especially people in the Asian community that had poor diets and had to get their digestive tract sorted out. It's done wonders, the manuka honey for them. I think one thing that stands out to me as a lady that, I mean, I talk to people all day long. They have different conditions and stuff. But this is several years ago now. She called me she was having trouble with a cancer, very aggressive throat cancer. Nothing could touch it. They kept cutting out and cutting out and cutting out and they couldn't slow it down. couldn't stop it. And I said, Well, you know, if nothing else, try the manuka honey. See how it works? She's showed up at my warehouse. Maybe three years ago now Just did in tears crying and giving me thanks for turning her onto manuka honey because it had saved her life. Wow. People had no idea how to stop this. Now she's still battled with it. But she has slowed it way down to where it's manageable now, but and that was always manuka honey that did that. Now you can get those testimonials all day long. And the problem, again is, is that when you can help your body fight off things, it doesn't cure cancer, but it gives your body the ability to help with digestive issues, sinus issues, all kinds of that's when we make so many different products.
Greg Voisen
Well, it makes it makes the cells in the body much healthier. Yes, you know, the mitochondria, all the various things inside the body. Now you and your organization are aligned with save the bees and I think my listeners are gonna want to know about save the bees. On your website. People go there, they can click on this about the research the habitat restoration, beekeeping, the amount of money that's being raised and to save the bees supporters. Tell them a little bit about the Save the bee American honey, and the what this is all about because PRI is right up there with Mary's crackers and grizzlies in nature. Well, friends and all three sisters and all the partners in this, how'd you guys come about getting this going? Well that
David Noll
everybody probably knows that we can't live without bees, they pollinate. They, we wouldn't have fruit we wouldn't have we wouldn't have all kinds of things. We didn't have bees. And there were certain areas in the world because of various sprays that they used, or the deforestation of certain areas. The bees didn't have the flora and fauna to stay healthy. You gotta remember a bee is just like us. If we have to eat at McDonald's every day, we're not going to be very healthy. Right? And so the bee needs a variety of very diverse flowers and plants to take their bee pollen there be nectar from to be healthy. And so as we saw different areas in the US went through a big one about eight years ago, we were losing bees, they were dropping dead everywhere. Yeah, nobody could figure out where it was. And most of it was they just didn't have enough good food to eat. And so the save the bees does just that. It no way support, it's an international thing. So we try to we don't have much control over it. We pour in so much from every jar that comes in, so they can replant certain areas that they can teach beekeepers on how to keep their bees healthy. Because a lot of beekeepers over the winter months will feed them sugar water, and not save up enough to keep them fed over the winter and that weakens the bees. It also goes into what was a catastrophe in many areas for a while the varroa mite right. There was attacking bees and literally a lot of beekeepers had to burn their hives to get rid of the infestation, because the bees were too weak to fight off of mine, and they were just spreading like wildfire. So it's all those things combined to save the bees because without the bees we can't live. If they disappeared tomorrow or food sources would dry right up. We'd all be eaten beef jerky or something like that.
Greg Voisen
Well, thank God there's people like you out there that are doing what you're doing. And my listeners, you can go to the his website and link directly to the save the bees if you want to support it, and the good work they're doing. Yeah. And and the other thing is, where do you kind of see, you know, the future on the horizon for as you maybe do a succession plan within your business and your business carrying on with other family members and where is this all going in terms of you think the medical conditions the how studies are being done around manuka honey and the dietary uses? Because I think some, you know, studies that have been done that I've read are pretty compelling for the use of Yes, yeah.
David Noll
Yeah. It's it's been a big in probably the last four years, there's been a dramatic shift in the medical community regarding manuka honey. I have have doctors now that are prescribing manuka honey for their patients, which was unheard of before. You know, we did trials in the Mayo Clinic years ago, with bed sores and things like that. And they work and even the Mayo Clinic was very suspect, you know, because you can have a nice thing. But more and more doctors as they get educated in the minutiae realm, we knew that there's no for diabetic ulcers on the skin, you cannot heal them, there is nothing in medicine on the face of this earth that can stop them from getting bigger and worse, you can wrap them, you can clean them, you got to do it several times a day, sometimes, they just keep growing, because the diabetics don't have enough blood flow to heal up the wound. So they put manuka honey on these diabetic ulcers, and was seven, seven days or half the size. Wow, the days are almost gone. Now what the honey does is it it pushes water away from the wound, and enables no bacteria to stop the healing process. Because virtually what happens is you don't have enough blood supply to keep the bacteria at bay. So they just keep the wound open, and virtually eat you alive. But with the honey, you put that on, and it just starts closing up and close enough and close the gap until it's gone. They don't have anything else even comes close to that same with Mersa on the skin very aggressive cancer on the skin. The manuka honey gets supplied and it stops it dead in its tracks when it's uncertain, because if you look at it under a microscope, as the water is being pushed away, the bacteria can't survive anymore. The cells of the body are actually feeding on the honey to replicate themselves and pull themselves together. It's pretty unique process. But you know, it's not unique in the fact that as far back as the Egyptian days, you know, they didn't have a whole lot if you got to stab with a spear or shot with an arrow, your only hope was they were taking a handful of honey and just put it in the wound. And that was what either saved you. You know, and that's where a lot of this stuff came from the fact of manuka has, will speed up the healing process probably by about 10 times because of the cnngo levels. And
Greg Voisen
and while we were talking here, I went to the National Institute of Health, clinical significance of manuka and medical grade honey for antibiotic resistant infections, as review, written by Victoria Nolan, James Harrison, and John E. Right? If you want to do that, just Google it. And you're gonna come up with a recent paper that was written in 2020, where this hottie honey was studied, and it talks about all of the factors that we've just talked about, a little bit. So um, so how do you how does Pacific resource international ensure sustainable practices in sourcing the production of Manuka Honey, what is it that I mean, I know New Zealand, you when you think about it, everybody says, well, that's a sustainable country that says what they do. On the other hand, is there anything that your company is doing to ensure that these are all sustainable practices as we access this resource? Now,
David Noll
I think the keys of that question is the fact that beekeepers, whether they make money or not, they love working with bees. Before manuka was, came on the scene, these guys had beat up trucks could barely make a living doing honey, but they did it because they loved it. Manoukian made it affordable for them to actually raise a family and they did buy a new car and a house. But these people love working with these and I don't know where that affiliation comes from. But like I said, some of the families that we work with, we're on the third generation of people that have fallen in love with just working in bees and they love the outdoors. They live you keep the environment clean. They love with the bees do and how they pollinate the world. And also the great products. You're talking about a beehive that nobody produces honey, but you're talking about propolis, royal jelly, bee pollen, all those things have been in use long before it came out for cancers and immune building and all kinds of stuff. Just a little sidebar with the queen bee. She eats 300 times her weight a day. In eggs, she lay I'm sorry, she lays 300 times her weight in eggs every day. And the only thing that sustains her is royal jelly produced in the hive by the worker bees. And that's it's so full of nutrients. And so that's why it's hard to get these days because it's just not enough in every hive to mass produce it. Bee Pollen is a natural multivitamin that comes out of the beehive and Propolis is been used in cancer research as well. It's a natural antibiotic produced by the bees. And that's what we put it in our lozenges or throat sprays or cough elixirs. Along with the mineral Hi, if you give it a two punch thing, you get the propolis. And you get them in Africa, honey. So that's why a lot of our other products work so well, is the propolis and the manuka honey, and sometimes the the bee pollen, but I used to be born every day, I had a teaspoon every day, to keep my immune system up and use a propolis spray all the time when you feel a sore throat coming. This is excellent stuff. It stops in its tracks. And of course, we have the lip balm. Well, as well. So did
Greg Voisen
your so during the pandemic, did your sales actually rise as a result of everybody getting sick? Where did they know about it? And they were?
David Noll
It's kind of a conundrum there. Because over COVID Yes, sales were strong, but you would think that they would be a lot sharper going up. The problem was nobody was going anywhere. They were staying home. So they weren't sharing the normal flu bugs. And so we did see a little bit of a drop in some of our cough and cold stuff. Even though sales were so strong. Yeah. And it's funny, because after 18 months after everybody to say that the COVID thing was, you know, not that big of a deal. Everybody started sharing bugs, again, our business went way up at the end of pointing lot into 22.
Greg Voisen
Well, I want to let my listeners know that you couldn't get a better product and PR eyes in my estimation, this is my commercial for Pacific Resorts International. And for David, his company at the natural products. Expo was definitely a company I was very interested in. Also, when you look at the caloric intake if you're counting calories, manuka honey has less per tablespoon in other honeys. So you know, and when you look at everything else, because he puts on the puts on the side of the jar, the total carbohydrates. And when you start to compare all this, you can also see the benefits if you're measuring dietarily. What is your consume? So in wrapping up our our podcast here, David, what would you want to leave the listeners with? What should they look for when choosing manuka honey to ensure they're getting the best quality product? And what are some of the tips that you'd want to leave them as far as how they would use it, why they would use it and so on.
David Noll
I think the key component is looking at that NGO level. And if you've got one now and it's not our brand, and you're happy with it, ask them for a lab test. Because that's the proof in the pudding. If you have that lab test, you can see exactly what is in that that char that batch that they're giving to you because it's not so important when you're looking at the lower end of it like the 50 that you've held up earlier. That's a good blend. And you can use that every day and baking and your tea and coffee. And stuff like that. If you don't have any problems just want to have a healthy lifestyle
Greg Voisen
versus the 500. This is the 500 Yeah,
David Noll
the 500 is for unique conditions. And you should not worry if you've got a specific problem. You should probably take 123 teaspoons a day, preferably an empty stomach. A lot of people put in their coffee or their tea. It's not good to put any raw honey in any hot beverage because you lose some of the componentry of any raw honey when you put it into hot water. So if you're addressing a specific condition you should do best. My formula is six to eight ounces of water first thing in the morning, cleanse your system out. Then add a teaspoon of manuka honey of your choice to go in and round up anything that's going on in the stomach. When the bad guys are there, they get out of control. They go in and take care of all those bad guys that are trying to bring things to your body that you don't want. And then the third thing which is most important and digest and I don't sell it is probiotics. Right? You need probiotics probiotics from I, probably nine out of every 10 People need to have probiotics, whether you're six years old or 106 years old, you we have a society that we live in with stress, poor diet, and a lot of antibiotics. And all those three things combined to just wipe out to your probiotics. And so you need to do that the manuka honey, it's like a prebiotic, it goes in, it rounds up all the bad guys. But you need to plant the new probiotics. Because digestive issues are the source. Everything starts in the gut, there's a couple of books out there that talk about that. If your guts not in order, you're going to get things like diabetes, you're going to get things like eczema, you're going to get things like cancer, and stuff like that. You're just going to get all kinds of diseases, especially old age diseases. How many times have you heard people say this, you know, it was great until I got into my 30s You know, everything started falling apart? Well, that's because they've run out of their probiotics or probiotics or not digesting the food properly, and turning it into building materials for your overall health. You know, it's, it's funny to listen to people who would do that, because once we straighten out their gut, they start to feel better, they sort of even doctors that I've dealt with over the years. If they give you five milligrams of something, and it works for a while, and then it starts to stop, they give you can, and then they give you 15 And then he gives you 20 And then you get 20. The problem is, is it your probiotics are gone, they're not pushing it into your bloodstream like they used to. So I've told doctors give them the probiotics and watch the difference. Bam, they can take your mind back down to five milligrams, because it's getting into their system faster. So digestion is nine tenths of the law for a healthy living. And I don't know anybody these days, that doesn't get enough probiotics. I take 50 billion once a day, if you've had antibiotics, you take 50,000,000,003 times a day. And the 50 billion doesn't scare anybody because you're supposed to have 50 billion probiotics per square inch, your esophagus, your stomach and your intestines. And so you got miles of stuff to replant half the time. And that's what causes hiatal hernias, acid reflux, almost, I have a lot of people who take manuka honey and say my acid reflux is gone. I said, Well, what about the probiotics, because it's good for me, the acid reflux will be muted by the manuka honey, but it won't solve the problem, you have to replant your probiotics. Otherwise, wow.
Greg Voisen
And you're such an advocate for wellness and healthy living. And, you know, your your products are certainly the additive that many people need, that they probably not aware, and I hope my show reaches enough people and they take action, where you're gonna go to learn more about this is shop. PRI, that's shop pri.com. And he's got some bundles in there. You can get he's got skincare assault treatments bundles about us, there's a reward program as well. He's done a just a wonderful job with the website, including a little person that pops up, I don't know who that is in the corner. And she talks, she talks to you about the benefits of this as well. So I think can you ask her a question as well, if you have one, you can
David Noll
probably hear the answers, but you can ask her the question. Yeah,
Greg Voisen
well, if you have any questions, as people know, you can go to the website and you can actually go to contact us and it's there and he's gonna give 10% off for any of my listeners today that want to go there and buys some of the manuka honey and any other products. So I'm gonna encourage my listeners if you haven't tried this, please do. And as he said, he just gave some really cool tips. You don't have to dilute this in tea although I have to say that's what I've been doing. You can just take a teaspoon of it with the water in the morning. I think that makes a lot more sense. So thank you for that. Thank you for that tip because I'm not certain that many people understand that so I
David Noll
don't want to put it on there. They want to put on their crackers or bread or they want to mix it with something but it under normal conditions if you just want to get stay healthy, that's okay. But if you have a system thing you're trying to address then take it first thing in the morning on an empty stomach. Okay,
Greg Voisen
David, thanks thanks to PRI international for For all the work that you're doing and your family's doing and they're your kids are doing because they work for you. It's a great organization. I've it's been an honor having you on the show. Also, people go to save the bees if you want to learn more about that program that's being sponsored by PRI as well. Pleasure having Yan nama. Stay tuned. Yeah, Greg,
David Noll
I guess one more thing, if if you have watchers that are have specific questions about specific conditions that they want more information on, just have them call us or email us and we can set up a time to talk and I can walk them through some, you know, different scenarios to help with whatever condition they're trying to address. Very
Greg Voisen
kind of Utah for that I'm sure that you'll get some listeners that will do that. Van, I've actually been telling everybody about it as well. So I'm going to be an Angela evangelist for PRI because I really believe in what you're doing. And I believe in the, in the value of this to my digestive health and my digestive system. I've always had been a bit sensitive. And I noticed since you sent the products and I started taking them. I feel like 1,000% better and I got a lot more energy. So I think this also does something for your energy level to folks. So yeah, we'll we'll definitely that's
David Noll
why those chocolates are so great. ingredients, you know, I'm gonna get honey 99% cocoa and a flavor. Both healthy eating. We made it fun to get healthy.
Greg Voisen
Yeah, and for my listeners, look, I'm gonna hold it up again. Whatever. These are like little nuggets. He's got all kinds of a salted caramel stew. And you can see I've actually been in the bag I've been alright David, thanks so much.
David Noll
Thanks, Greg. Appreciate it. Thank you so much.
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Inside Personal Growth with Greg Voisen · Podcast 1120: Project Management for the Unofficial Project Manager with Kory KogonToday, we are privileged to have Kory Kogon, vice president of content development at Franklin Covey and a senior leadership consultant. Kory is also the co-author of the updated and revised edition of “Project Management for the Unofficial Project Manager.” With over 25 years of business experience and a keen understanding of leadership and productivity, Kory offers a unique perspective on managing projects effectively.
Introduction to Unofficial Project Management
In today’s digital age, project management is a skill that transcends traditional roles. Since the advent of COVID-19, managing time and projects has become more critical, especially for gig workers and those in dynamic work environments. Kory’s extensive background includes co-authoring several bestsellers and contributing to renowned publications like Inc.com, Fast Company, Forbes, and Investor Business Daily. Her insights are grounded in real-world experience, making her an authority on the subject.
The Journey to Franklin Covey
Kory’s journey to Franklin Covey is a testament to her dedication and expertise. She started in the business world, holding various frontline positions and eventually serving as the EVP of worldwide operations for a global franchise organization. This role ingrained in her the importance of project management, as every task, from marketing campaigns to training programs, was treated as a project. At Franklin Covey, Kory has become a thought leader in leadership and productivity. She emphasizes the significance of having the right mindset in project management, focusing on creating value, leading people, and managing processes.
Three Foundational Principles
Kory outlines three foundational principles in her book:
1. Create Value: Ensuring that every project delivers value to the client.
2. Lead People: Engaging and inspiring people to work towards common goals.
3. Manage Processes: Utilizing effective processes to guide projects to successful completion.
These principles align with recent changes in project management standards, such as the Project Management Institute’s emphasis on value and agile methodologies.
Challenges and Solutions for Unofficial Project Managers
Unofficial project managers often face numerous challenges, including unclear objectives, lack of communication, and scope creep. Kory’s book addresses these issues by providing practical solutions tailored for knowledge workers who manage projects without formal training. She emphasizes the importance of clear communication and setting expectations from the outset to mitigate these challenges.
Defining Project Scope
One critical aspect of project management is accurately defining the project scope. Scope creep, where the project’s objectives continuously expand, can derail a project. Kory offers several tips to define project scope clearly:
• Identify All Stakeholders: Engage everyone affected by the project to avoid surprises later.
• Interview Key Stakeholders: Ask thought-provoking questions to gather detailed and specific information.
• Set Boundaries: Clearly define what is excluded from the project to avoid assumptions and miscommunications.
Conclusion
Kory Kogon‘s insights into project management offer valuable guidance for anyone managing projects in today’s fast-paced environment. Her emphasis on mindset, value creation, and effective processes provides a solid foundation for unofficial project managers to navigate their roles successfully. For more information, resources, and workshops related to Kory’s work, visit Franklin Covey’s website.
Thanks and happy listening!
You may also refer to the transcripts below for the full transciption (not edited) of the interview.
Interview Transcipt -Not EditedEmailDownloadNew TabGreg Voisen
Welcome back to Inside Personal Growth. This is Greg Voisen, the host of Inside Personal Growth. Everybody out there knows me. But many of you probably don't know our expert and author who wrote this book Project Management for the Unofficial Project Manager, the updated and revised edition. Good morning to you, Kory. How are you?
Kory Kogon
Good morning. Nice to see you.
Greg Voisen
Well, it's a pleasure having you on the show. And I don't think there's a soul out there, Kory, who literally isn't affected in some way, especially since COVID. And all of us working on computers, about how we manage our time but projects and things we have to do and you know, for the gig worker, this is there and for every other worker, but I'm gonna let my listeners know a little bit about your background so that they know who you are. Kory Kogon is Franklin Covey's vice president of content development, and senior leadership consultant. She's the co-author of the number four Wall Street Journal best seller, the five choices the path to extraordinary productivity, and addition to Project Management Essentials for the Unofficial Project Manager, our book today. And presentation advantage Kory has been featured in inc.com. And in its productivity playbook online series on Fast Company dot coms, forbes.com, and investor Business Daily. She has over 25 years of business experience from the frontline positions it to serving as the executive team member for global franchise organization. This provides her unique perspective on the application of Franklin Covey's world renowned content within organizations. Kory not only understands the strategy and principles necessary to build great leaders systems and winning cultures. But she also understands Franklin Covey's blending blended learning offerings, deliver practical solutions that enable the behavior changes required, or transformational results in organizations. Well, that's quite an intro. So tell us, Kory, how did you end up being at Franklin Covey for as long as you had 25 years? And really diving into a topic which, you know, when you think about it? Yeah, we've all been doing project management since I don't at some point since the industrial air, right. It's like, hey, we've got to get all this stuff done. How did you get into this?
Kory Kogon
Well, first of all, thanks again, Greg, for having me. And thanks for doing that. That intro that was quite the intro. And they've actually been in Franklin Covey for 18 years. So I'm really dating myself, because I have many years of business experience prior to that, as the, as you mentioned, EVP of worldwide operations for a global franchise organization. And so you know, how how I got to doing this was, you know, when you're a franchise organization, the corporate headquarters is really there to support coach and help, you know, businesses become profitable, and meet their mission and vision out there. And so we were always making things everything was a project. And so even at my level reporting to the CEO, we were always coming up with new marketing campaigns and training programs and all of that. So it was part of my DNA early on, and we were Franklin Covey company, so we had a seven habits, culture and productivity culture. And so just all of that mix together, sort of helped me arrive at Franklin Covey working on a lot of you know, becoming a thought leader around leadership productivity, with real world experience from where I had just been out in the field.
Greg Voisen
And so that's coffee, coffee, coffee recruited you away from the company that Covey had all of its content in.
Kory Kogon
No, they didn't. We had there was a new CEO, we parted ways and, and I knocked on Franklin Covey store, and one thing led to another surprise. So, it's a very interesting story, but ended up you know, you think you're gonna do a couple of, you know, a couple of things and some consulting with them. And the next thing you know, I was full time with everything and all like I said, you know, came to bear and what I was doing with Franklin Covey,
Greg Voisen
I mean, you know, Stephen, Mr. Covey, the Son and Stephen Covey. We're definitely just incredible leaders in, in helping businesses transform themselves. And Steven Covey senior came up with so many great foundational ideas that are still being used worldwide today. So it's a franchise that isn't going away, that's for certain. So, you know, your, your, your book outlines three foundational principles. You call it create value lead people manage processes. Can you explain how someone new to project management or anybody can start applying these principals effectively, to better manage a project with inside their organization? Because we have lots of middle line managers listening to this, and they're gonna want to know?
Kory Kogon
Well, it is, you know, one of the things that Franklin Covey is so well known for is that we, we start with a mindset, what is our mindset need to be? So a lot of people when it comes to projects, their mindset is okay, do I have a process? Do I have a game charge? I have something and then how do I tell people what to do. And that doesn't mean that doesn't make people bad. But that's sort of the mindset that they know of our mindset around project management is we go, Aha, wait a minute. It is about, you know, project success equals, making sure there's value in the project, making sure that we've we have a group of engaged people to do the work. And we have a process to pull it all through. So it's sort of that starting place for any project manager, actually, in this day and age. And it's interesting, because only recently as part of why the book was revised, the Project Management Institute, who certifies the official project managers out there, and we take our guidance from them, changed their standard, what they call pin box 17, where value and the agile project management methods really now are front and center. And value is a huge part of it, because so many projects, started out with good intentions, and ended up being something completely different, or didn't meet customer needs after the fact. And so what's the value? How am I checking in to make sure that we are providing value to the client? As we're making the project? How do I inspire people? And then what process Am I using to manage the pieces and tasks of the project to a good finish? That's
Greg Voisen
a great explanation of that. And, you know, any project manager is trying to align people toward a common vision to get it accomplished, right? And carry them through some projects. Like, you know, the sending the Hubble telescope was a 10 year project and billions of dollars in it ran over extensively, I think the government said it was going to be a billion it was 9 billion more, you know, so you always wonder how these projects go awry, that that much arise. So for many of my listeners, they're gonna find themselves in project management roles without any formal training. And that's what this book is about. What are the most common challenges that they would face? And how does the book help address these challenges?
Kory Kogon
Oh, big point that you're making, Greg is this difference between we're not the audience of myself, you and others. We're not building the humble, you know, space thing, or a bridge or anything like that. We are knowledge workers pay to think innovate, create and execute. And so every day we are, you know, like I said earlier, maybe we're making a marketing campaign or a new process for payroll or a training program or something that has a beginning and an end. And we are unofficial project managers. We haven't had the kind of training that the officials sort of had. To answer your question, what that means is us really talented people, you your audience, very talented people sort of intuitively pushing their way through projects. You said this earlier, we've been doing projects for a long time, even at home if you've I mean, if you think about a project, making a dinner is a Thanksgiving dinner, let's say here in the US, it's a project. A wedding is a project. So we've been doing these things at work has become our work. And what has happened is that the failure list has gotten long, and it's become the status quo. So not having clear objectives, lack of communication, having the wrong people in the wrong roles or not the right people in the right roles, scope creep, which is a little bit of trouble but not quite lack of clear expectations, which might have been in hobble as well, those are sort of the top things that come up. Every time I ask the question of a group of people, whether in an organization or, you know, live event, to brainstorm, what are the challenges, and what I just mentioned, are the top ones. And again, it's the status quo every project we do, we're generally going to run into some of them until we get our arms around. Am I doing project management for an as an unofficial project manager, thinking about value the people in the process?
Greg Voisen
Very well said, and I think I want to ask, throw this question in for you. You know, it's only been in the last really six, maybe eight months, that our world has been changed dramatically. So by artificial intelligence, including artificial intelligence is being used in every piece of software imaginable that you can think of, from a sauna to this to that, to whatever, which in itself, is project management. I've actually seen it integrated, in your humble opinion, as you move forward and see these tools being used. How one will the AI help? And to? How do we need to prepare ourselves for that, as project managers?
Kory Kogon
You know, we're doing a lot of work right now on on this integration of AI and people skills, the human capital side of it, because everybody seems to have a little fear that AI is going and we know, I mean, there's some reality where AI is replacing tasks and stuff like that. The best advice I got, and I recommend for others is to not fear AI, but to embrace it. Yeah. And it is once you start using, I mean, everybody can go up to, you know, I'll name one GPT chat for or, you know, I mean, there's Claude, I mean, there's a lot of different ones. I've got one on Microsoft, I just want to be equitable. I'm not a pilot, pilot, copilot, thank you. Yeah, copilot, Gemini. There you go. It's, oh, it's really fun, actually, because what AI will do is relieve you of some of the burden of the tasks that you're doing as a project manager. So I mean, even brainstorming a list of tasks based on a, you know, deliverable that you have, or how it schedules and again, I don't want to get specific, I'm not an expert in AI. But it's amazing when we get over our fear of AI, how we can partner with it to make it another member of the team. So
Greg Voisen
and it really comes down to Kory I humbly I've been using it a lot. And if you can become a good prompt writer, right? Right, meaning it won't work well for you. Unless you feed it good information, then it works very well for you. You can't be in a hurry with it either. I think people, you know, oh, boom, I want to do this, I want to do that I think you need to think through and then really be prepared for that prompt? How are you going to write the prompt? And it will spit out some amazing factual information. Once you do that, you know, so you in in the book, you emphasize the importance of you talked about scope creep, but scoping the project to accurately. And I think for every project manager, if at some point it becomes about scope creep, did we bid this right? We have this included, the clients asking for more is is the salesperson there to say, Hey, this is going to cost more? Could you share some tips on how to define project scope clearly, and why it's critical for project success because scope creep can take up a lot of time.
Kory Kogon
Because it's like my favorite set of words only because it's a provocative, you know, two words. And it really can create such pain and understanding also that sometimes people are not in situations where they can control everything. So those listeners that are thinking, Well, my boss tells me I have to add it, I get it, I get it. I know that I know that feeling, even right before our time together was stealing with a senior stakeholder that we were negotiating, you know a little bit on things but there's a lot in our control that we can do something about so just want to separate that out for a moment so you don't get distracted out there with things you can't control the so first of all, the the scoping part of project management cannot be missed. So even when we do a workshop on this, we probably not probably I know we spend more time in the scope section than we do in a lot of the other sections. Because if you don't set the foundation, right, it sort of messes with every every other part of it. So you really have to identify, first of all, and again, it sounds like it takes a lot of time it doesn't we like to say, faster, slow, slow, is fast, very famous Stephen Covey statement that the better you do front loading, and the more time you put there, the less pain you'll have down the road, the more success you will have, versus going fast and then paying the price later on. So you want to identify all of your stakeholders. And I know it sounds crazy, because people will say, Well, who are you keep pushing? And you mean, my family too? I'm like, Yes, get out everybody that could possibly be touched by this project, in order to not get blindsided in a few weeks by somebody who knocks on your door sends you a text and says, Hey, wait, you forgot about me. We all know that feeling. And it's, you know, the project is slowed down. From there. It'll also help you identify the key stakeholder group, there's a couple of groups that get left out of the we call it the key stakeholder dance, who makes the decisions, who has the authority, who has the need, so dn and C connections and energy, they're not signers, the people with connections are my people out in the field that have a lot of influence, that are, you know, going to, you know, help with those that have a lot of negative energy or whatever. So I got to identify, and we don't think about those people. So I want to make sure I've got the right people at the table as key stakeholders. And I want to make sure that I'm doing a really good interview. So we have templates, but and it's in the book, but whatever you have, you know, this is not a training session, or a talk on how to fill out forms, but you should have a consistent method of what information do I need? And am I asking really good questions, thought provoking questions? And do I know what answers I'm looking for? Which is a really big thing to think about? For a leader to say, or somebody to say, well, we this is really important. That's why we're doing it is not good enough. You need to get into well, what is important really mean to you? Well, it's going to affect how we you know, you know, set up marketing funds for next year. Okay, now I have more of an answer. So we need very clear, very specific information as answers. And the last thing I'll say, in that interview, my favorite line to go back to scope creep, is the question, what will be excluded? What are we not doing in this project? Because it puts guardrails on at least part of the way to know you know what, we're targeting these customers, but not those in this case. So those are a few tips for how do I do this? How do I scope? Stakeholders, key stakeholders have a good set of questions, know what answers do you want? And make sure you're covering? What are we not doing as a question? So we squeezed out assumptions. Well,
Greg Voisen
and I want to encourage the listeners. So if you go to Franklin covey.com. There is a forward slash speaker's bureau and then Kory Kor, why hyphen, Kayo, Gon, you can go there. Then there's a tab that has resources. And there's a resource center. It's also about the books, and what much of what you're talking about the book is up there so they can learn more about the book, you can learn more about the workshops as well. So we'll encourage all of you because as we speak about this, oftentimes you want more information, how do you find out more? So to find out more, just to go to that, we'll put a link in the blog so that you can get to that. Now, you identified that the, you know, interviewing key stakeholders is really very critical early step. And I would agree you have to identify who they are, right? what their role is, what strategies would you recommend for engaging stakeholders who are resistant or are indifferent about actually, you know, being part of the project?
Kory Kogon
So sometimes the so as a VP, myself and at an executive leadership for many years, I can see it from both sides. Because I might be one of those people that somebody is trying to get my attention and I'm really busy. So if somebody is running after me saying, hey, Kory, we're doing a project, we need some, we need some of your time. That's good. I'm not going to really. And don't judge me on this, I'm just being really honest. I, you know what, in the 50 requests that I get a day, that one isn't going to catch, my eye might let that drop to the bottom of the inbox, right? But when somebody comes to me and says, Kory, we are working on a project, that is an event based project that we're shooting for 20% Higher involvement than last year, in order to help generate 30% more leads for our sales effort. Do you mind answering a few questions? Now you have my attention, because you piece the thing together in a very concrete, tangible way. So I know what my role is. And that stuff is really important to me. So, so I'm going to give you my time. So that's, I'm telling you, Greg, that is the major difference, both to both of those that you said resistant and different. In different, you gotta find what floats their boat, or maybe you don't, maybe it's the wrong key stakeholder, right? So why would they be a key stakeholder on this? And once you answer that question for yourself, then connect the dots for them as to why it would be worth their time to talk to you, you may not get 100% of people based on what I just said, but you will raise the percentages dramatically.
Greg Voisen
Well, I think when you're speaking to someone like yourself, you have to communicate the challenge. In other words, for people like you to get your attention, especially if it's somebody who's working on a project, and they parsed it out the way they parsed it out the way you said it, the communication, it became abundantly clear that that was more of a challenge for you. That was something that you could spend your time wisely doing. And I believe when we do give people in upper positions, a challenge, they rise to the order because they're curious, and they want to have their input put in. And that brings me to you talking about? Let's just talk about this way, our teams. So what, how can the unofficial project manager best engage their team, especially when the team members and here's the big part may have some competing priorities are varying levels of commitment? Which is this is always the case because it doesn't matter what company? Most people are wearing many hats. All right. And those hats, because of other people in there, they're trying to spin the plates and keep them all go. So what do you do to kind of get alignment and get people on the team engaged?
Kory Kogon
Oh, keep in mind this whole time is we're talking about project management. In my mind, we're not ever talking about one project. Nobody, most people out there don't have just one product, at least in the in the larger Well, small organizations, large organizations, if you solo entrepreneur, you are juggling a few things. So I don't want to say it's never one project, we have a lot going on. So it could be six, seven and eight projects that are going on at the same time that these people are engaged in and are being pulled in a million directions. The other thing, Greg, that you set and so so they have a lot of priorities. But the other thing that gets thrown into the recipe is that a lot of of your listeners may not have chosen to lead people, they wanted to do a project and at the end of the day end up having to lead people. And that is, you know, that wasn't the expectation. And so to add to it, it's I need to lead people in today's world in a way that inspires them to want to show up to play and win versus you saying, you know, okay, here, just do it. I mean, that's a really, a really big part of, of this is that people who never wanted to lead people are leading people. And it's why we really distill down to just a few behaviors that if leaders or project managers did really well they have a really great chance of inspiring the people on their team. have to really want to do the work. And the other thing that's sort of the companion to that is that in many cases, these people don't functionally report to the project manager. And so that's so now I never wanted to be a leader. They don't even directly report to me, but I need to inspire them. How do I do it? And it's and so that's sort of the cocktail of it all. And it takes these five behaviors, that if we just get those done really well, we have a good chance of inspiring our people. Would you like to? Well,
Greg Voisen
yeah, and you have to keep them inspired? Let's definitely, but you have to keep them engaged. And yes, I do want to hear them. Yeah.
Kory Kogon
So I mean, because I, you know, I said a lot there because this idea of and so I just want to bring this home. And we always say and then Stephen said this years ago, but well before its time, and it became so apparent, particularly after the pandemic, is that in today's world, people it on teams, we need to lead them in a way that they're willing to volunteer their best efforts, volunteer their best efforts, we can't, because they're knowledge workers. So it's not like we can, you know, you know, count widgets, it's what people want to give of themselves. So that's what I mean by engagement and inspiration. And so the five behaviors are as follows. Number one, you know, we need to, and again, it's gonna sound like what your parents taught you, but it's what you need to do these underpressure, I need to demonstrate respect to the team, I need to listen first, I need to clarify expectations for the team. I don't mean on the project, I mean, even how they their work, is not just a bunch of tasks, but how their work is a contribution to the project. And they can see a line of sight to you know why this project even exists. I need to extend trust to them, I can't do it all myself, I need to delegate to them and trust them. And finally, I need to practice accountability. I need to, you know, first of all, model accountability, and I need to hold the team accountability. Because Greg, if you show up three days in a row to our meeting late, then you know Sandy's gonna go well, I, Greg, nothing happens to Greg. So, you know, I'm gonna I'm gonna, you know, take the kids to school today, you know, because what the heck. So those are the five behaviors? Well,
Greg Voisen
I'm glad you outlined the behaviors, because two that stood out for me, and not just because they were the last two. But trust and accountability, I think, on the trust one, a lot of times people who are heads or running the project, they have a challenge with this trust factor, meaning, you know, if I want to get it done, right, I got to do it myself attitude, right. And it's not the way it should be. It should be. If I want to get it done, I have to inspire the team. And I have to trust. And even if they do make a mistake, I have to let them make that mistake. Right. And we have ways or options to correct it. And then I think the account ability is it's really just looking at everybody's ability to be accountable. Right. And and those are really important when you are meeting timelines, deadlines, projects, things you've got to do report to customers and so on. What are some of the best practices for choosing a project? And why is it important to have a formal plan? Or what is it closing? Sorry? Yeah. closing, closing a project to me. I mean, I've closed a lot of projects, but then they come back up and bite me in the butt. Because I thought they were closed, and they weren't really closed. Because the client comes back and says, Oh, yeah, you forgot to do this, or you forgot to do that. And those to me are scope creep, because it wasn't managed during the project. So speak with us about that closing the project? Well,
Kory Kogon
you answered your own question, because, you know, it goes back to the scoping upfront and making sure everybody's on the same page. And you know, I don't know we'll talk a little bit about this, one of the elements is track and adapt. So as we go through just these check ins along the way, that's that's the value part to make sure that and the whole agile thing is instead of waiting until the end, where they call you and say, Hey, Greg, excuse me, you forgot a few things. Not that that would happen, but it was your example, that we are in our planning, really just making sure that we have connection points, checking in making sure we're on target, you know, all all of that the court is when you get to the closing, you know, a lot of times well, you get to the closing everybody's like ready to go on to the other six projects that they will Working on and even I am like closing meeting I will roll my eyes a little bit. But for the client and you it is really important for the reasons that you just gave, let's make sure that we're ticked and tied as of today. So like a balance sheet check in, we're done. And then it sort of gives you a line in the sand when they come back to you. And said, this is important, particularly if you're a really small business, because you don't want this money going out of your pocket. You set that line where Yeah, we got it. So when they call you back, and say, Well, wait a minute, I want this, now you're talking about sort of a new project or an add on. So really important just not to let it just fade away. But you know, you you want to make sure that we have the closing meeting, make sure everything is done as planned. Internally, it's really I say, roll my eyes, the internal one, it is really important for the team to be able to first of all celebrate the good work they did. So go remember what I said about inspiration, engagement, obviously, you're going to hold people accountable in both ways. When they don't, it's going to happen. They didn't meet their commitments. And we have all kinds of tips and tools for how you have those kinds of conversations. The end of the project when it's complete, you even if it wasn't perfect, you want to celebrate the things that went well, and then move into what did we learn? And the Agile world world culture and retrospective? So it's a very key part of it to say, what did we learn? What can we do better next time, and archiving all of those things. So when we do this type of project, again, we're not starting from scratch, I said to you, before I roll my eyes a little bit like oh god, we have a closing meeting, you know, it's going to take time. And you can tell I'm very operational and very black and white. But when we do the meetings are at the end of it, it's it's like a saying, you know, Oh, I'm so glad we went to dinner with Mary and Tom, even though we didn't want to go, we had such a great time. Same thing with this, having a closing meeting, the team is so engaged, and you get a real peek into how inspired they are for the next project. So really important to hold. I'm
Greg Voisen
glad I'm glad you mentioned agile because that word gets thrown around so much in today's world. And you did talk about tracking and adapting throughout a project, what I'd like to know is if you could give a situation or a pivotal case where things didn't go well, and ones where they went exactly as planned. And you felt like the project was a success in a lot of cases, people will finish a project or they think they're finished. And it wasn't a success. Many things went wrong along the way. And you have had so much time to look at so many projects, as somebody who does what you do, I figured you'd have two great examples.
Kory Kogon
Oh, an example well, of a big pivot. And this goes back to the project manager and how they handle the emotions of it as well as the functionality of it. But we have a case study of an organization. So think, you know, the pandemic and all of that a couple years now we're a couple of years out of it, right. And so a lot of organizations are doing live, you know, meetings for their kickoffs, and you know, all of that. So this organization, which is an IT, not a start up, but it's been around for a while, and they were going to have their first live in person meeting outside the United States. So you can get a sense for the scope of putting that together figure about 1000 employees, something like that. And so they went to work on it, and a couple of weeks before, I mean, it's, you know, what goes into the hotels, and the food and the activities and all of that. And about two weeks before the event, the company purchased, it was there was a merger. And the merger had to happen right at the time of the event. And so many of the people that would be in the event would have to work. And so they had to shift the whole project and to another time. And so I give you I give you that example, because just like your reaction, the reaction by everybody was crazy. I mean, everybody was out of their minds and the fear around what about the hotel and the fees, and you know, all of this, and the project manager almost lost her cool with a two inch editor. She lost her pool with her boss, which was okay, right? They were in the privacy of his office, and she was able to let off that steam. And then she got in front of the whole project team, which is a huge group. And you could sense that she almost let it go too far. emotionally because you have to be, you can't be overly optimistic like, Hey, this is great if it doesn't work out. She also couldn't, you know, like, oh my god, this is the worst thing that ever happened, you know, the leader really has to lead out under these kinds of circumstances. So, and they ended up having a great event they managed to mitigate to the CFO was involved in mitigated, you know, some of the additional costs, they, you know, wrote off some of the costs back to the merger, and everybody lives happily ever after. So, you can that's
Greg Voisen
a good, that's a really good example, it really is of someone pivoting. Right. And she had to pivot. Now, can you share an example where you had a project plan? And it went just exceptionally well? You know, it was a, it was like a a plus plus plus, case nn Nn. So doing, what was it that you think made it such a success? Meaning, what were the alignment of the stars that created this project to just go like, it was under budget, it was it completed early, the client was happy, everything went well.
Kory Kogon
You know, those are very few and far between.
Greg Voisen
I was trying to pick back up in the brain to see if I can see if there was one back and I
Kory Kogon
can use. It's probably unfair, but I think that I'm gonna use this but because every project has, has its ups and downs and ins and outs. So so it's hard to say, Well, which one was perfect, I will tell you the project. And this is not fair, the project that went really well was rewriting this book.
Greg Voisen
Okay, there you go.
Kory Kogon
And I say it's unfair, because I have a small team that I work well with, the key stakeholders were completely bought in to what we would do winning. And so, you know, sometimes you do have a couple of people, I'm always careful with saying go to people, because then they end up getting the burden of everything. So that's another leadership moment, conversation. But I have a few go to people that we just work really, really well together and inspire each other. And so it started on time, it went flawlessly ended on time. And, you know, the publisher was thrilled. Well,
Greg Voisen
and they're aligned, you know, this is BenBella book, and I don't know if it was Matt Holt or not. But if it was, then BenBella as being run now by Matt Holt. It's a wonderful book, and it's very well laid out and you guys did a great job. So what tools or resources do you find indispensable for project management? Now, we said, we weren't going to endorse anything. But we realized Gantt charts and all these various tools that are out there, especially for those who are not formally trained in the field. You know, we've got aI now that's actually doing, you know, creating your schedule for you. You know, I see it happening. And I think, you know, I haven't used that software yet. And I think all those who are listening understand which one I'm talking about, but what it what are some of the tools or resources you find indispensable that you speak about in the book. And
Kory Kogon
I know that because I'll say this besides the people, because they're the most indispensable, you can't do this without people. So that's one. The, you mentioned the Gantt chart. So I want to go there for a moment because really, project management revolves around the principles of a Gantt chart. So I know your listeners are shuttering already that I said that word. Here's what I here's what here's what I would say. There's a few things what happens is organizations will say here uses project management software. So I'll name a couple of Microsoft Project or smart sheets on the Google site is Mondego. Asana, there's a few you know, out there that people people work with and a lot of people it's funny when I pull people on what they use, and this is for years now, the number to this day, the number one answer do you want to guess what the number one answer they give me on what they use? Excel? Exactly. Excel number one response because people know how to make columns. They do some formulas and stuff like that. And Microsoft project and name one just like Google is with Google Sheet. is all it is is Excel with some Um, other project management principles embedded in them, for instance, dependencies. So because well, let me go back, what I was saying was that what happens in organizations they might give out and say here, use project, it's gonna make you, you know, very productive, and you open it up and you go not for me, you close it never to be seen again, because you don't really understand it. And what you don't understand beyond what looks like Excel is things like dependencies, this idea of ordering the tasks of the project. But then being crystal clear about Wait a minute, I can't do this task before that task, and hooking them together in the software. And you'll you'll understand that in a moment. So when we're hooking these things together, the software even before AI is doing the work in the background, that's going to help you make your on timeliness based on the way you're scheduling. The second one, and this is demystifying the Gantt chart in three minutes. The second thing that I can't live without is duration, versus work hours. And again, these are time management principles, even if you never open a Gantt chart, because a lot of times what happens is the boss says Kory, can you do? You know, can you pull together that customer list? How fast can you do that? I'm like, Oh, wait, I just need a few hours, I need for three hours. What really, but I need Greg to help me and I need Mary and Greg's out doing his podcast today and Mary's on PTO. And so those three hours, I can't get done for three days. So the duration that I'm building into the schedule is not three hours, it's three days, all of those things, dependencies duration, all get cooked together and calculated together to come out with the critical path, which is the most amazing part of the Gantt chart, because it shows you all of the things that have to be done exactly on time in order to hit a deadline. And it just turns the Gantt chart into a strategic management tool for you. So regardless of what tool it it's named, be open minded to try again sharp because you can do it with a very simple project.
Greg Voisen
That is brilliantly said, now, to throw something in there. You know, when we start something, we have to innovate it, we've got to create it. We were working with something, what are your thoughts around? And I've seen this and there's a company and a gentleman who has been on my podcast, Chris Griffis open genius, the software is a Oh, and I'm not doing this for a plug, I'm doing it because mind mapping can actually turn into a Gantt chart on his software. So in other words, if you were to mind map something, and then you take the mind map, and it actually creates the foundation for the Gantt chart, and then you put in the timelines, it seems like mind mapping to Gantt charting is really a good solution. Do you have any thoughts about that? I
Kory Kogon
think that's amazing, you'll have to tell me, you have to send me the name, I'd like to look that up. Because we do say that brainstorming is an enormous tool. In Project Management, you'll see some mind maps, you know, in the book, as well. Because it's sort of even when you go back to the stakeholders, you want to mindmap you want to brainstorm all of the stakeholders and the key stakeholders. And then you want to brainstorm all of the deliverables and the components that break down under it, you want to, you know, brainstorm all of the tasks. So I love that because that is such a key component. And then of course, not everything that you bring, this is where the human side of AI comes into play. Because not everything you brainstormed shouldn't be included. Right? It was just a brainstorm. So I'm sure there's a mechanism there where a turns goes from the mindmap into the schedule into the Gantt chart, and you're obviously doing some editing to the take out what you don't want, or you're highlighting, which do I think it sounds pretty cool. I'm
Greg Voisen
gonna introduce you to Chris, he's the CEO and founder of open genius, and you guys can take it from there. But my point is, yes, it has AI in it, yes, it does this wonderful thing. But what I'm trying to get to that for people is, you know, when a project starts, all the stakeholders who want to be included in it when you're developing this, mind mapping is a great way to pull in all of those ideas, and then call them out, you know, kind of go through this iterative process to say okay, which is important to this project, and then work from there. So, managing long term projects can be challenging. It's always challenging doesn't matter if it's one month, one year or five years. What advice can you offer to maintain momentum and keep teams motivated throughout the duration? Have a project because, you know, I know that I've managed projects that are long. And sometimes I wake up in the morning and go, Oh, my God, I've got to go back and work on that project again today is that when not done yet? You know, I'm not as motivated anymore. And I know many people when they get long, long duration projects, as I know, we're supposed to see the vision at the end. But sometimes it gets a little hazy.
Kory Kogon
You know, no, no doubt. And myself, too, you know, I work on year long, you know, projects. It's not as I want to speed them up. Again, you can only go as fast as some of the humans, you know, and everything that goes with it. I will say that the first thing and this is a big topic for me, I do think that more should be said around keeping people engaged through the length of a project, because we're going to start with Well, you got to use the five behaviors, you know, so if you demonstrate respect, and you listen, first you do you know, all of that, they'll be inspired all the way through, have so so if you not, if you are not leading that way, you're in for a long haul. And you're going to have remember what I said slow is fast, if you are not leading them in a way that inspires them to want to volunteer the best efforts, six months down the road, you're going to have a hard time finding them, let alone, you know, inspiring them. And so that's that's a baseline, I would you have to be creative, because a few things happen towards the end of a project. First of all, people are tired of it like Greg was talking about. But also some of the more involved stakeholders start to I'm going down a psychological road here, start to get very tense. Because we're coming to the end of the project, we're like in the second half of it, and they get tense. And that is the worst place for scope creep to occur. That's that's the trap. Because what happens when I've seen on every single project that I've worked on, you know, that's even even at dinner, you know, what happens? It's like, well, wait a minute, did I remember the carrots to do Oh, we didn't have enough food? Or we know, maybe we should make some more potatoes, because we knew we had it all measured out, right? And then we start to reach the end, and everybody starts to get a little crazed. Like, oh my god, what if we got it wrong. And so as a leader, you need to be aware of of of those things, I have to keep them inspired, leading them the best way I can add various and having these breaks of milestone check ins, and just stopping and sort of cutting up the project into smaller chunks, gives you a new beginning and ends you have the what we call the primacy, recency effect, where it's almost like, Okay, well, we finish that, let's start again, on this other one. So instead of it just being one long thing, we have these breaks where it's like, okay, that's done. Let's start over. And now that's just the human psyche, and how we think in chunks, rather than long things. And remember what I said, you're gonna have to work at keeping people calm, and not giving into you want to listen to people's feedback, but calming people down as you get towards the end of the project, and they get fear sets in. Did we get that? Right? And so see human response.
Greg Voisen
I think also, in the human responses. We, most people that work on these projects, they're curious, so they're looking for something different, right? And when you when you come every day to the same old thing, you know, and you don't see anything new, anything exciting, anything different. It's like, okay, I'm trying to plod this forward to completion to getting it closed. You you get a bit depressed. It's like, oh my gosh, I'm still here. So in wrapping this interview up, I have two things. One, everybody go out and get project management for the unofficial project manager to I'm going to recite the website again it's Franklin covey.com Ford slash speakers hyphen Bureau, forged last Corey, KR, why hyphen que Ogon. And there you can learn more about that. And I would like to invite you as well, Kory, because I think the predecessor book the five choices, the path to extraordinary productivity. I know we're having David Allen on here in the next couple of weeks. That's and and David and I have been good friends and he's got a new book called teams. And and the thing I want to do is offer that up to you and to any closing words for project managers who are listening right now who you think could you could provide I had a resource with or a tip or an idea, or something you could do that they could immediately apply to the project they're working on today, because they just listened to his podcast. And they're like, Okay, these guys talked about a lot of stuff. But I'm right in the middle of this project, what can Corey, tell me to actually keep me going?
Kory Kogon
Well, I mean, two things. One is a little bit of motivational ones a little more tactical. So, you know, since you, you opened up with this, but since the pandemic, the the level of innovation skyrocketed, because we needed new everything, new systems, and new ways of working, and all of that kind of stuff. So project management is really the in skill set for knowledge workers. So the predictions of how many project managers will be out there in a few years is, you know, really, really amazing. And, again, remember with AI, somebody needs to lead the projects, no matter what. So that human side of that, so you're in a really good place that if you are working on projects continue, because it's the place to be, if you are currently on a project, and you are saying like Greg said, Okay, well, I have everything I heard today, where do I start? I would go back to looking and again, you might be way down the road on it, but it doesn't matter. I would go back and look at your scope, and say, Did I ask the right questions? Do I have all the information? You know, to what I need? And am I do I have a really good foundation here? Or did I leave something out? Or did I lead somebody out that I can catch up with now, that's what I would leave you with?
Greg Voisen
I think that part about something out or someone out is really a good tip. In other words, continually ask yourself questions internally, as you forward the project to progression and closure about who is it that I need? What's the resource I need? Where can I get that? When do I insert it into this project? Because as projects move forward, you don't always you haven't identified all the resources, you have to find resources that can actually add to the value of that project as you move along. And I And that's either people or other resources, or money or software or whatever it might be. But it always seems to happen. And Kory, it's been a pleasure having you on I'd like to have you back on again, for your other book. And thank you for being on inside personal growth and sharing your wisdom, wisdom and expertise. And again, there's the book Project Management for the Unofficial Project Manager, updated and revised edition. Go out and get yourself a copy. We'll have a link on Amazon. Namaste to you. Thank you so much for being on. Have a wonderful rest of your afternoon.
Kory Kogon
Thank you, Greg, you too. Appreciate you having me.
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Inside Personal Growth with Greg Voisen · Podcast Audio – Liza DockenFor today’s episode, I’m thrilled to welcome Liza Docken, the National Educator for Pranarom, an aromatherapy company renowned for its commitment to organic and sustainable practices. Liza brings a wealth of knowledge from her 25 years in the health and wellness industry.
The Genesis of Pranarom
Pranarom’s journey began in Belgium in 1991, founded by Dominique Baudoux, a pharmacist and aromatherapist. Dominique envisioned a holistic approach to health and wellness through the power of essential oils. Unlike traditional pharmaceuticals that isolate specific plant constituents, Pranarom uses whole essential oils to maintain the synergy of all natural compounds, ensuring a more holistic benefit.
Liza’s Encounter with Pranarom
Liza first encountered Pranarom while working in health food stores over a decade ago. She was struck by their 100% certified organic products and their unique approach to blending essential oils based on their constituents rather than just their aroma. This method ensures that each blend offers specific therapeutic benefits, a practice that sets Pranarom apart in the crowded essential oils market.
Addressing Common Misconceptions
One of the biggest misconceptions Liza encounters is the belief that all plant-based products, such as flower essences, herbal tinctures, and essential oils, are the same. Essential oils are highly concentrated and must be used properly, often diluted and in the correct delivery system. Unlike many brands that focus on sales, Pranarom emphasizes education for safe usage.
Therapeutic vs. Aromatic Grade Essential Oils
Liza explained the critical difference between therapeutic and aromatic grade essential oils. Therapeutic grade oils are selected for their active constituents, which provide specific health benefits. In contrast, aromatic oils are blended primarily for their pleasing scents. Pranarom’s focus on the former ensures that their products support health and wellness effectively.
Innovative Products and Blends
Among Pranarom’s innovative offerings are Prana Caps – essential oil capsules designed for internal use. These scientifically formulated capsules support various aspects of health, from respiratory and immune health to digestive wellness and stress management. For those seeking scientific backing, resources like PubMed and Google Scholar offer numerous studies on the efficacy of essential oils.
Ensuring Purity and Quality
Quality and purity are paramount at Pranarom. They offer only certified organic essential oils and provide a Certificate of Analysis for each batch, ensuring transparency and trust. This rigorous testing guarantees that their oils are free from dilution, synthesis, or adulteration.
Incorporating Essential Oils into Daily Life
Liza suggests the most consistent way to use essential oils is through diffusion, which can uplift moods, energize, or calm and relax. During cold and flu season, diffusers can also help purify the air. Pranarom also offers pre-formulated products for various uses, from skincare to body oils, making it easier for users to integrate essential oils into their daily routines.
Essential Oils for Skin Care
For those with sensitive skin or dermatological conditions, Liza recommends using virgin plant oils, also known as carrier oils, and hydrosols. These products nourish the skin gently and can be especially beneficial for individuals like cyclists or those with sun exposure. Hydrosols, the co-product of essential oil distillation, are particularly effective when paired with plant oils, providing a refreshing and moisturizing experience.
Final Thoughts
Integrating essential oils into your daily routine can offer numerous benefits, from enhancing emotional well-being to supporting physical health. Pranarom’s commitment to quality, education, and innovation makes it a standout in the aromatherapy industry. For those eager to explore further, visit pranarom.us and discover the science of essential oils.
Thanks and happy listening!
You may also refer to the transcripts below for the full transciption (not edited) of the interview.
Interview Transcipt -Not EditedEmailDownloadNew TabGreg Voisen
Welcome back to Inside Personal Growth. This is Greg Voisen, the host of Inside Personal Growth. And joining me from Minneapolis, Minnesota, is Liza Docken. And she's the National Educator for pranarom.com, which is an aromatherapy company. And many of my listeners know Liza that I spend at least a full day every year at the natural products West Expo, which is out here on the West Coast, which happens in March. And that's where I met Liza. And I always pick up on oh, about five companies. We're doing one coming up. For a company that makes honey that is all natural that comes in from New Zealand. We picked up a couple of others that are making what I call organic products. And lies really seemed interesting to me. So, Liza, I'm going to tell the listeners a tad bit about you and your background so that they will know more about it. Liza Docken, she's a certified aroma therapist and the National Educator for Pranarom. She has been in the health and wellness industry for 25 years working in the health food stores, with clients as a yoga instructor and meditation guide. Her passion for natural world guides her to plant-based remedies, with a focus on organic and sustainable practices. She brings a lot of enthusiasm. I've already spoken with her once before, on a pre interview and joy and fun to the learning experience with is very inclusive and expansive approach. So for all of you who are interested, please go to pranarom, that's p-r-a-n-a-r-o-m, the science of essential oils. And that's pranarom.us. That's where you can find out more about their products. You can buy their products from there, and so on. So why don't we kick it off Liza with, you know, you know, you're the educational director here for North America. This is an international based company. It's not just here in North America. Give us a really brief history about the company, how it started, how you got involved in it, and why you believe that the products this company have because there's so many people that make products that are essential oils, and Aromatherapy is better than many of the others.
Liza Docken
Yeah, thanks, I. I'll start with the we're founded in Belgium. And our founders name is Dominique Badu, he both a pharmacist and an aroma therapist wanted to start something where he could support people's health and wellness using that constituent model though. So, in pharmaceuticals, obviously, we're often isolating or extracting constituents from plant. We're using that for medicine. He wanted to approach it more holistically, taking all of the essential oil all of those constituents and using those as a way to support health and wellness. So it started in Belgium, it has expanded that was in 1991. It has expanded throughout Europe. And now also here in Canada, United States, Mexico, lots of places. And what I find so wonderful about what he was doing is that he wanted to make aromatherapy more accessible to everyone. He was so passionate about education when he was working. He's retired now but his educational seminars were out of this world. And he really wanted to find ways to further his interest, I will say in the scientific side of aromatherapy. He did that by building relationships with not only the farmers and growers, but also the distillers. So that allowed him conversations with them around things like oh, well what if we tried harvesting at a different time of day or distilling at a different temperature. And what that does is effects the constituents that show up in the essential oils. So, it's a way to find a nice happy medium without having to isolate, extract, synthesize or do anything unnatural, if you will. And so having been in health food stores since the late 90s. I've worked with a lot of essential oils. And when I started working this was probably 10-15 years ago, I was working at a store and that was when I first came across this brand. And I was blown away. I had never seen a brand that was 100% certified organic. I had never seen essential oils that were based on constituents and what I mean by that is choosing essential oils for their constituents and then blending based on those constituents rather than just on the aromatics. And I remember I was working at the display, and I said,
Greg Voisen
It’s almost like a custom blending, isn't it? I mean, when you keep speaking constituents, I get that the products are up there. But that, you know, there are places and I know you don't custom blend, right. It's not this isn't what we're talking about here. But in essence, you've when the people go to the website, and they see the numbers of products that you have for the various things, I think they're just going to be blown away because t's truly amazing. And you know, one of the things I would like to address with you and make want to make sure that we have time. And this was one of my questions. What are the most common misconceptions about essential oils that you kind of encounter as an educator? And how does prana Roma address these through the education that you provide to both retailers to the end user in whatever capacity you're working?
Liza Docken
I think one of the biggest misconceptions around aromatherapy and plant medicine in general is that it is all the same meaning flower essences are the same as herbal tinctures are the same as essential oils. And that is, couldn't be further from the truth. Really, essential oils are incredibly concentrated. And they need to be used safely, properly, most often in dilution. And definitely in the right delivery system. Depending on how we're using those essential oils. There's a lot of misinformation in the market, there's not a there's not a lot of regulation around essential oils, the things that people are able to claim about their essential oils. And there isn't enough oversight on how people are educating in terms of what they're saying is safe use of essential oils. So fortunately, a lot of brands offer education to promote sales more so than where I'm focusing is education for safety. What,
Greg Voisen
what are the differences between this Therapeutic Grade and aromatic grade essential oils? And why is the distinction so important for consumers out there because I don't, there's probably a lot of consumers that are really just not quite aware of the therapeutic grade. So, I think it's, you know, educate us on that as well.
Liza Docken
Let's just talk about what those are briefly to help us understand why constituent-based Aromatherapy is so important. And plants produce essential oils inside of their internal structures. As a way it's called the secondary metabolite as a way to protect themselves. These essential oils act as anti-microbials. Anti past, they work toward off invasive species. There are all kinds of ways in which these essential oils work to promote the life of the plant. Those constituents are the therapeutic function of the essential oil. So every essential oil has a, you know, a list of constituents that exist within it. And those are what you might call the active ingredients. And then we're using our blending techniques by choosing oils based on their constituents because it is the therapeutic function of the essential oil. So when we put a blend together, we're choosing oils based on those therapeutic ingredients. And then using that blend for therapeutic purposes rather than a new aromatic experience, which is a beautiful way to blend. We do that with diffusion blends, choosing oils based on their aroma, putting them together to create a new aroma. That's a wonderful practice. But we're really focusing in that scientific it's also called French medical therapy. And that is different than any other brand you'll find in this market.
Greg Voisen
So, you know your company is very innovative and what are the most innovative products or blends. That prawn aroma has developed recently. And what makes those products so unique because when, again, when my listeners go to your website, they're going to see I'm just going to call it a pro flatiron and comparison to most essential oil places that you would go to like look for essential oils. And these are all around many of them around wellness right? In other words, it's a focus on How can these be used to improve my wellness? And there's all kinds of things that you, I'm not gonna call that you treat, because maybe that's the wrong word. But there are things that these can be used for, to create a huge difference in your life.
Liza Docken
Right? Yeah, I would say one of the most innovative things that we offer are our prana caps. They come in, I have a box here, it's just these internal use essential oil capsules that are in a base of carrier oil. In order to ensure safety, they're safely encapsulated. But what's so fascinating about this is that they're formulated scientifically, with safety in mind, so that you can take essential oils internally in a way to support the respiratory health, your immunity, health, your digestive health, your stress or sleep needs, or memory and focus. And
Greg Voisen
have there been any, pardon me for asking, but I always get this with, especially when we go to alternative treatments, because we get so much of this from doctors. Is there been any NIH studies or things that have been published by the NIH around these essential oils? And the use of those tablets? And if so, where might our listeners go? To learn more about that? If they're looking kind of like, okay, we see your website, or there is a resource guide for them to take a look at? Yes,
Liza Docken
I would say that there are endless number of studies done on essential oils, in as individual oils and as blends. And those can be incredibly helpful when you're looking for something to really help treat something, which obviously, we're not claiming here, but it is where we're headed, right? We we want to think about symptomatic relief. But we also want to think about how can we prevent the situation where symptoms arise? And how do we keep ourselves in our health and wellness imbalance? That's really what aromatherapy does. And so whether that's through the olfactory system and emotions, or through the internal structures of the body by taking them internally, they can absolutely go online and search I love PubMed and Google Scholar, as outlets for you know, typing in essential oil or typing a few essential oils in you'll easily find results on studies that have been done, showing the effectiveness, sometimes it gets into the specifics of those constituents within those essential oils to
Greg Voisen
well, you know, again, your company has taking it taking it to a whole new level, versus somebody who just might go out to Amazon and look for essential oils to dump into an aromatherapy device that kind of spews it out into the room, you guys have gone just lightyears ahead of that. And so I want to talk about the purity of the essential oils, and its its impact on effectiveness. What standards does prawn aroma use to define and ensure kind of the purity of these products? Because, you know, many of these are diluted? They're they're not 100% fear when I say that there are reports out there of this happening through these essential oil distributors, right? Because it's a huge business. It's a gigantic business. So how do you guys ensure the purity of all of this in
Liza Docken
a number of ways so prana room offers only certified organic essential oils. That is one of the only ways you can really ensure the quality of an essential oil, there aren't really any regulatory systems in place for labels like pure natural, and so forth. So having a brand that is 100% certified organic, obviously ensures that it is 100% natural. But on top of that what we offer our customers at any time is a certificate of analysis, which means every single batch of all the oils that we get in, we have run through a number of tests so that we can ensure that those constituent levels are where we want them to be. Based on the study that we understand in terms of how constituents can support our health. They can call anytime and ask for a certificate of analysis on an essential oil or on a number of essential oils if they're working with a blend. And so those are some of the most important ways because when you have organic certification, what that means is that the plants are left to grow naturally organically right and then the That is why they produce the secondary metabolite that creates these wonderful anti microbial, anti pest and so forth essential oils, if we were to spray them, we would be doing their work for them. So when you buy a product that is not certified organic, they have a less robust profile, and aren't as intense in terms of what they can offer us in our house because we've sprayed them and they don't need to do the work. So primer only offers the organic essential oils, and we're never adding diluting, synthesizing or adulterating any of our essential oils. So
Greg Voisen
does prana Rome grow most of these plants themselves? Or you outsourcing this Liza, from other people who are growing it but are growing it organically with the certification? And then in your factories? You're then creating the essential oils and packaging them is that would that be the correct assumption?
Liza Docken
So we have a mix, we have a number of places, particularly Madagascar, where we have sole sourcing on a lot of the farms there. So all of those oils really come only to pronto. That includes some oils that you won't even find other companies offering. But then we do have to work with other growers. So we work with a lot of collectives, Europe is a perfect example. There's a lot of growing collectives in Europe, because that gives them a little bit more power and in the market. But we do have to source from all over the world because we have oils that require much like a varying degree of growing environments. I often get asked if we grow everything in Minnesota, and our growing season is very short. So no, unfortunately, that would not be sustainable or responsible. But some is sole sourcing, yes. And then some were sourcing from other people who have gotten the certification already. Well,
Greg Voisen
look, there's probably a lot of listeners out there who have used aromatherapy and essential oils. And I find that it's one of those things that many people don't stay consistent with, you know, they'll start it, they'll stop it, they'll do those kind of things, with the surge in popularity of integrative medicine and functional medicine physicians, which we have many on the show. What are some of the favorite essential oil blends? And how do you personally incorporate these essential oils kind of your just lies as mainstream wellness routines? Because I think people are looking for, okay, what am I going to do to to do this, I know even myself, I started it, I had a little machine. You know, I used to let it pump out all the stuff in my room here. And I stopped it. And I what I really want to do is start it again, but sustain it. And that is I think a lot of listeners out there. It's like okay, so why should I sustain this? What's this doing for me? How do I make this part of my routine? And you as the educator could be the best person to help us with that. Yeah,
Liza Docken
I would say that the easiest and most consistent method of aromatherapy uses through a diffuser like you're describing. diffusers offer the ability to disperse atmospheric ly essential oils in the space where we are giving us that aromatic experience. But what's happening is that when we breathe in, we're breathing in scent molecules through the olfactory system, which eventually end up in the limbic system of the brain, which is where the hippocampus and the hypothalamus and the amygdala are which, in fact control things like our emotions and memories and hormone balance so
Greg Voisen
well in stress. I think. I think a key is for many people, you know, it's like okay, I go to yoga get the essential oils, like come back. I don't have essential oils running. But it is a great stress reliever, isn't it?
Liza Docken
Absolutely. It's one of the best ways to change the environment, the atmosphere, the mood in a room. And you can do that too. Like I said, uplift a mood Energize. But you can also do it to calm and relax. But then one of the things I love the most about diffusers especially during cold and flu season is that we have certain blends that work to purify the air. So whatever might be floating around wherever you might be if you're bringing things home if you have lots of people at home. It's a really nice way to maintain health that way. But then what's wonderful about prana Rome is that we offer a number of products that are pre formulated so if you want to do hair oil if you want to do facial care if you want to do a body oil, we have options for all of these uses and applications already formulated to make it that much easier for people who are in wanting to go beyond the diffusion and really branch out because one of my favorite uses is skincare. I use essential oils on my face my whole body in the bath. I mean, I'm using them all day every day, you just look
Greg Voisen
like it. You actually You look great. And and I want to ask that question because, you know, there are a lot of listeners out there that have dermatological conditions. Everything from psoriasis, to breakouts to whatever. Can you say that the essential oils could make a difference? I know we can't make any claims or impacts here. But I do know that dermatologists frequently will recommend creams but they're not essential oils, right? They'll say Well, here's this cream, or here's this one or that one. And the reason I say this because like I'm somebody who has pretty sensitive skin, I ride a bike a lot, I've had melanoma removed. I've had screaming cells, and all kinds of other skin cancers like six or seven of them removed from my skin. And I'm I know that I believe that this alternative therapy could make a huge difference in the tonality of my skin and how I feel everything. Yeah,
Liza Docken
yes, absolutely. So one of the products that we offer are what we call virgin plant oils, and other people call them carrier oils. These are the more fatty oils. These are the oils that we use to dilute our essential oils, but they have their own abilities as plant medicine as well. So when it comes to sensitive skin, or easily irritated skin barrage, and calendula and Evening Primrose all of these oils work wonders in terms of really nourishing the skin, but doing so in a very delicate way so that the skin and isn't more reddened and often is less threatened by using these oils. But also hydrosols are a really important component to be aware of when it comes to aromatherapy. So when we distill for an essential oil, the CO product of distillation is hydrosol. It's water that moved through plant material as steam to extract the central oils from the plant material. But the essential oils are hydrophobic, so they float to the top. And then we're left with this vat of botanical water that moves through plant material. It's got the water soluble constituents, but it's not concentrated. And it offers wonderful therapeutics for the skin. So for someone who's regularly out in the sun, every time you get home from a bike ride, I would say get your Helichrysum hydrosol I have some right here and spray that on your face every time you get home. Use an oil on your skin before you head out just as efficient as
Greg Voisen
a moisturizer. Because it's carry is carrying these properties with inside the steam that turns into water, which now has these byproducts in it, which ultimately are going to be a good moisturizer for your skin is that.
Liza Docken
Yeah, on its own, it's very refreshing and will add moisture to the skin. But then in order to maintain that moisture that you've just sprayed onto the skin, you're gonna want to use one of the Virgin plant oils to hold that moisture in. You don't have to use a lot and there are definitely great options if you want, you know more of an oily finish less of an oily finish, it just depends on what you're looking for. But all of these exists. So rose hip is a perfect example of a dry oil so that when you're applying it to the skin, it absorbs and dries really nicely without an oily finish. But that hydrosol piece is important because your skin needs water, not just the oil. But it needs to have that before the oil goes on so that it can get into layers of the skin and then that oil can go on top of it and hold it in place. But then the hydrosol helps draw the oil into the layers of the skin as well. So you have this really great balance for skin because the skin is made up of oil and water. That's the protective barrier.
Greg Voisen
So look, you're in the educational side, and you do a wonderful job. Thank you this morning, you've spoken with my listeners and myself about ways to use it. What are some of the insights that pronoun research and development process does? And how do you decide which new products to really kind of develop?
Liza Docken
We look at a number of factors of course we're going to look at market trends to see what's what's happening for people, what are people looking for, but I would say that again, one of the really wonderful pieces about a company like prana Rome is that we can offer internal use of essential oils in a way that is safe and effective. Too many times I see people taking essential oils in ways that are not safe to be ingesting water is probably my least favorite delivery system for essential oils, and unfortunately seems to be one of the most popular. So it's important to understand why that's not a good delivery system, why a good delivery system is important. But being able to put across
Greg Voisen
what is what is a good delivery system of fat, you
Liza Docken
want to fit into oil, and you want to encapsulate it, ideally, because you want it to get all the way in so that your body then distributes it as needed. When you're taking something like for, well, any of the topics that I mentioned earlier digestive health, immune health, and so forth. Do
Greg Voisen
you have things for do you have things for inflammation and arthritis that our customers might be interested in? Are there? I mean, look, I know a lot of people today will, you know, they'll get an inflammation and they'll use a CBD cream? Well, CBD cream is not the same as your aromatherapy or your essential oils. But are there particular essential oils that my listeners who are hearing this now could use for inflammation and or arthritic conditions,
Liza Docken
we actually have a whole line of products. It's called our Romel genomic line. And these are all indicated for active people, people with stiffness, people with inflammation, people with aches and pains to address those issues as best possible. So we have gel creams, we have sprays, we have roller balls that have an essential oil blend in them. Because in my opinion, yes, you can go at it with a single note, meaning one specific essential oil, but blends tend to do the best. Because essential oils are fascinating in that they have their own function, but when working together, they often then have this umbrella of a greater function on top of those individual functions. So that when you have a situation where you might want save some peppermint for its analgesic effects, but then perhaps also closed for its analgesic effects. You're then also thinking about, Okay, well, now I want to incorporate things that are more specific to supporting the body's inflammatory response. So you're going to put something like lavender or Helichrysum in and those four essential oils make up what we call just plain relief. And this is a very concentrated, very powerful and effective roll on that works great for you know, I've been in the garden too long. My, you know, I get digital arthritis pain at the base of my thumb and my pointer. And that blend is probably the a number one thing to help support that if you're talking about a blend, and in that way, so very,
Greg Voisen
very, very good way to approach and again, I'm going to tell my listeners that they want to go to prana rome.us. And it's P r a n A R o m.us. That's where you want to go. Now, has your company collaborated with other organizations or researchers to advance the study or application of essential oils? And if so, can you share any notable outcomes, or future plans that you might have? So in other words, this is an area which has been around for years and years and years and years, not as recognized as it has become today, it is certainly so much more at the forefront of people's I'm going to call overall lifestyle changes, and health changes and wellness. And obviously, everybody likes to know, well, what really are these doing? Or are they just kind of more? And in your case? We know they're not. But you can't really say it, they're not just benign, they just don't make the air smell good or make your skin smell good. Within the reasonable length. What can you tell us that might be going on with relation of research or advancements in studies?
Liza Docken
Well, our our work in that area is fairly grassroots. And what I mean by that is that, for example, the Madagascar example I gave earlier in terms of our sole sourcing, that's where we'll work with the community there. And we engage with them in ways. I mean, obviously, we have to work with them because they're going on the plants, and then they're distilling the plants, but how are their communities using that plant medicine? And how can we then learn from that as a way to support the health and wellness of people everywhere? So our collaborations really come at that level. And then we bring everything to the research and development, which is all happening in Belgium. And in those areas. Yes, we're working a lot of times with pharmacists and biochemist in that way because what we're trying to understand is more and more about how the constituent and function, what they're doing in terms of supporting us and then how we can then either formulate or at least educate more on those elements. So that is really, I think one of the bedrock tenets of prana. Romans is learning as much as we can about essential oils and then how we can make that most accessible to everyone else. Well,
Greg Voisen
and I want to let my listeners know that at your website, there is a tab there that says your needs and if you do the pull down on the tab, it's going to come up with joints and muscles, baby maternity circulatory system, digestive immunity, wellbeing, memory, focus, outdoor defense bites, respiratory concerns, oral health, skincare haircare, sleep and relaxation. That's just to name a few. And again, I think, for most people, they don't think of essential oils in this way. This is so unique, Liza. And I just want to thank you for sharing your education and knowledge as aroma therapist and with kind of a wrap up question. What advice would you give our listeners who maybe are just now starting to explore the use of essential oils? And where might they kind of, I mean, I know you've got an education tab that people can pull down as well. If you want to learn more on all these, where might they go to learn more?
Liza Docken
My number one favorite place is books. So books on aromatherapy are absolutely the best source of information. Our founder wrote a great one called contemporary French aromatherapy. But I think
Greg Voisen
if we're gonna go into the healing intelligence of essential oils, do you read by Kurt, as it should not spelt pH? Great, then you got another one by Kathy Cavell ke VI, le aromatherapy, a complete guide to the healing kit. Those books are at the website, by the way, folks, and I want them to know that because you've actually listed three great resources. And I'm sure if you went to Amazon, you're going to find a million more. But the reality is, are these these are ones that you guys endorse, yeah, we
Liza Docken
love them. Yep, we use them regularly. We referenced them regularly. But I wanted to say that in terms of that grassroots idea, I really encourage people to let your knowledge of aromatherapy come from use. And so what I mean is, you know, what is great about prana room display that they all have testers. So find a store, if you can nearby, there's a store locator on the website, get to know essential oils by smelling them. And then once you've decided on one, two, or three to start with, take those home and get to know them, let yourself get to know an oil by putting a drop in the palms, rubbing the palms together, breathe that in, notice where you feel it in your body. And that's really going to be one of the best ways to learn about aromatherapy and how it supports you and how it makes you feel. Just starting on that outer layer. And then you can then find books and other ways to dive in and get deeper with your experience and knowledge. Well,
Greg Voisen
and the cool thing is when you go to the where you buy at your website, you can actually zoom in on the map and then zoom out. And I want my listeners to know that it gives you the locations. I happen to reside in San Diego County and North San Diego County. And just by within the last two seconds, it shows me that it's a Jumbos, naturally, that it's at lazy acres that it's at these stores. So you can actually get these at many places, you certainly can't get the full array of all of the products. So if you really want to look deeper, because there just isn't enough shelf space for everything that they've got. You want to go to prom piano room.com. And again, we'll have that in a link to our blog, as well as a link to a few of these pages as well. Liza in wrapping up everything, is there anything you'd like to leave our listeners with as far as how they might start using this where they would go and as far as your product is insecure, as as far as your product is concerned, kind of the purity and organic nature of your product?
Liza Docken
Well, I think when it comes to using essential oil safety is the first step. So you always want to ensure that you're sourcing of high quality essential oil, something that is certified organic is ideal. And then it's about again, it has to be personal so you got to find things that appeal to you and then start with the diffuser. diffusers are really easy. You can get them at a whole range of price. says but a really great way to incorporate that into your every day. And I would say that, you know, when it comes to aromatherapy, remember that the plants made these oils for all of these various reasons, and that we get to use those oils for our own health in the same ways. So researching in that way can be a really great way to understand how essential oils and aromatherapy in general can support you.
Greg Voisen
Well, I want to thank you for being on inside personal growth, taking a moment to talk about the wellness elements associated with essential oils and aromatherapy and being such a great expert added as well. I really appreciate that. And again, for my listeners, go to the website and look under the education look for the books if you really want to dig deeper. Certainly these are available at your local retailers for everybody's listening across the United States. Certainly you can check it out that way. Or you can just go to their website again, I'll repeat P r a n A R O M pronto. rome.us To look for everything from diffusers to the tablets. It's all there. Thanks so much for being on inside personal growth was it was pleasure having you on and giving us some kind of education.
Liza Docken
I appreciate the time, thank you.
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Inside Personal Growth with Greg Voisen · Podcast 1118: Exploring the Cutting Edge of Regenerative Medicine with Dr. Trever WilkinsToday, I’m thrilled to have Dr. Trever Wilkins and Carter Kerber from Optimize You Performance Medicine join us. Both of these professionals bring a wealth of experience in the medical field, and together, they are pioneering innovative approaches in regenerative medicine. Dr. Wilkins, a trained emergency medicine physician, and Carter Kerber, a skilled physician assistant, are here to share their insights on how regenerative medicine can revolutionize pain management and healing.
Dr. Wilkins has always been athletically minded, which led him to pursue a degree in exercise physiology before diving into medicine. His experience in emergency medicine revealed a significant gap in addressing chronic conditions and injuries that didn’t require surgery but weren’t responding to traditional treatments. This gap spurred his interest in regenerative medicine, focusing on using the body’s own healing capabilities to treat various ailments.
On the other hand, Carter’s journey began as an emergency medical technician. His diverse experiences in sports and emergency care, combined with a holistic upbringing, naturally drew him to Optimize U Health. His training and passion for helping patients achieve their physical and mental potential align perfectly with the clinic’s mission.
Regenerative Medicine:
Regenerative medicine has seen tremendous advancements, offering alternatives to invasive procedures. Dr. Wilkins and Carter emphasize a minimally invasive approach, using techniques like platelet-rich plasma (PRP) therapy and adipose (fat) tissue treatments to promote healing. These methods leverage the body’s natural healing processes, providing effective pain relief and tissue regeneration.
Adipose Tissue and PRP Therapy:
Dr. Wilkins and Carter have found remarkable success using adipose tissue in conjunction with PRP therapy. Adipose tissue, rich in mesenchymal stem cells, acts as a scaffold and promotes tissue regeneration. This method has shown promising results in treating conditions like osteoarthritis, tendon injuries, and more. By injecting processed adipose tissue into affected areas, patients experience reduced inflammation, enhanced healing, and significant pain relief.
Case Studies and Success Stories:
The team shared numerous success stories, including patients who avoided surgeries and significantly improved their quality of life. For instance, a patient considering knee replacement surgery found remarkable relief and improved function after receiving adipose tissue treatment. These real-world examples highlight the potential of regenerative medicine to transform patient outcomes.
Challenges and Future Directions:
Integrating regenerative medicine into mainstream practice comes with challenges, including limited insurance coverage. However, the team at Optimize U Health remains committed to educating patients and advocating for broader acceptance of these innovative treatments. By focusing on personalized care and advanced medical techniques, they aim to bridge the gap between conventional medicine and cutting-edge regenerative therapies.
Conclusion:
Dr. Trever Wilkins and Carter Kerber are at the forefront of regenerative medicine, offering hope and healing to patients seeking alternatives to invasive procedures. Their dedication to patient-centered care and innovative treatments positions Optimize U Health as a leader in the field. To learn more about their work and explore treatment options, visit optimizeyouhealth.com.
Thank you and happy listening!
You may also refer to the transcripts below for the full transciption (not edited) of the interview.
Interview Transcipt -Not EditedEmailDownloadNew TabGreg Voisen
Well, welcome back to Inside Personal growth. This is Greg Voisen, the host of Inside Personal Growth. And the two guys on the other side of the screen over there, I got to get a smile out of him because it's Thursday. And the reality is, is that I assist a company called Cell max. And I'm involved in the healthcare field in many different ways, all the way from developing helping develop apps for Mayo Clinic, to speaking with gentleman like themselves, to the right of you on the screen for those of you who are actually watching this on YouTube, is Dr. Trever Wilkins. And to the left of you on the screen is Carter Kerber. And both of them, I have an organization called optimizeyouhealth.com. There, we'll put a link in the blog to that as well. I'm gonna let him know a little bit about you Dr. Wilkins. He's a do director of medicine at optimize U. He's a trained emergency medicine physician with a passion for cutting edge health modalities, and well over a decade of experience in the medical field. He graduated from medical school at Kirksville College of Osteopathic Medicine in 2010. Man during his time he spent in the ER, he developed the notion of providing a regenerative approach using one's own body to assist in the healing of many ailments. If you want to learn more about him, you can go to the website. Again that's optimize your health and that's optimize you health. I'm sorry.com Carter actually works with Dr. Wilkins and he is at optimize health as well as a physician assistant, but he's really more than a physician assistant. He's got amazing credentials. He had a CES certification began his career as an EMT providing critical care in time sensitive situations. After three and a half years of service he moved on to working in the ER where he taught to be was taught to be calm and methodical, even in tough situations. Carter then attended PA school and the rotation train of Midwestern University in Glendale, where he found his passion and helping others reach their full physical and mental potential and performance and medicine. Again, you can find more about him at the website as well. Well, both of you, gentlemen, thank you for joining us, you both have tremendous backgrounds. And, Trevor, I just want to throw this out. You in that little bio, you told the bit about it. Both of you can comment on this, if you would. Regenerative Medicine Today, has expanded so far, and there's been so many advancements in it. And it's doing so much to help people heal pain. Basically, why did you guys get into this? And why have you kind of chosen the alternative route versus more invasive procedures?
Dr. Trever Wilkins
Oh, thank you so much. And thanks for having us. By the way, you know, I like to think that I've always been athletically minded. And so from a young age, always thinking about what I could do to perform better. And, you know, that led to an exercise physiology degree, and then decided to go into medicine, and then really became intrigued with emergency medicine just with the pace and, and, and I still do that, and I love it. But doing emergency medicine. You know, aside from these, these Big Cypress procedures and interventions, there was just this obvious lack of what was what was needed by the community. And over after a few years, and the emergency department that started to weigh on me and I started to look at, you know, these people are coming in and a lot of them aren't getting the answers that they need. And that started me on a journey about learning about what else is there that can really address some of these underlying issues. And that ultimately led to this regenerative approach with an emphasis on lifestyle and really focusing and really embracing that. That part of health which is so crucial. And in in that I was able to discover in conjunction with conventional evidence-based medicine that there's so much more that's out there to offer. There's a huge gap between conservative medicine and surgery. And there were so many people that I was just seen on a regular basis that were in that gap. We weren't surgical candidates, they weren't getting better. And being a dead case,
Greg Voisen
It’s interesting you say that, Trevor, because we've had a couple other physicians on one in particular, Dr. Jeff Larson, who was neurosurgeon and back surgeon, he basically, for a large degree of his patients quit doing it. There's been many doctors who've written books saying, we're not going to do back surgery because it's not working. And I've cited that meaning that it's actually worse after the back surgery not I'm saying in all cases, I don't want to be an advocate for people to say no, don't do back surgery. But on the other hand, you know, when you look at a shoulder pain or a knee pain, or hip pain, I hear the stories about people afterwards. And I realized that not only is it a long healing process, it can be very excruciating pain. Now, Carter for you, you have a similar background in this can you tell us a little bit about why you are so you know, ready and willing to join optimize your health and Trevor to kind of get into this?
Carter Kerber
Yeah, of course. Well, once again, thank you for having us on. Kind of funny yeah, I mean, I have a background in emergency medical technician did that for three and a half years so undergrad, medical biology major minor in chemistry, math. Also work in Sioux Falls severity er as a patient care technician for a good two years so get into PA school, automatically thought I was gonna be doing something emergency I thought about being even like a combat tech technician in the military. However, during my er rotation actually, is when I found optimize, and I actually, you know, reached out set up a kind of a student rotation with them. I, I was interested in that sports, orthopedic side of things just I was kind of I call myself a a jack of all trades, master of none, because I did wrestling, track swimming, tennis, you know, football, basketball, pretty much everything that you could do. And so I love staying active getting outside and, and my mom, for sure, I have to thank her. She's super holistic, you know, fed me, she wouldn't even buy me baby food, she would make her own baby food. So like combined a bunch of vegetables, blend them together. And and so I definitely feel good. And thank her for that pathway as well. But yeah, Trevor took me on, they set up a I did some rotations, and then hired me on to do a short fellowship, specifically training knee and musculoskeletal or ultra sound, you know, these orthopedic procedures for hormone replacement therapy, peptide therapy, bunch of kind of cool, innovative stuff. And that's, that kind of led them out.
Greg Voisen
Well, it's good to have both of you on and I know one of the I told Trevor about this in a pre interview that I was just at Dr. Steve Berman's house of emergency room doctor, he became a hypnotherapist and is now working with Andrew Weil, and the noetic Institute. And you know, he's that's over in Arizona, where you guys are, again, for everybody there in Chandler, Arizona, if you want to check them out, go to the website again, optimize you health.com. That's where you'll find out they're in Chandler. And both of these gentlemen are really cutting edge at what they're doing. And I like the whole area of Noetic. Medicine, the whole idea of the way you communicate with your patient is really the way they can heal. The you know, you tell somebody, they have cancer and you go well, you only got a 10% chance, you know of survival. That's not the story they want to hear. They want to hear something encouraging from the physician. So there's been major studies done and you guys know, and I know both of you treat your patients this way, because I can tell you're really treating them very holistically saying, Hey, look at this, on the bright side, there's a much better way to go about this and a better way to look at it. And I believe there's such a strong connection between the neurosciences going on up here and what's happening down in the body. So with that being said, you guys approach everything with like really minimally invasive stuff, you're not going in to make big cuts and pull things out and do whatever you're saying the body can heal itself. So how were you first introduced in intelli fat beauty kits? And what are your initial impressions of their potential for pain management, and so on. So what's really happened with you guys with that?
Dr. Trever Wilkins
Yeah, with once again, kind of the common theme is we didn't have all the tool sets that we needed in conventional medicine, we can use some of those for for certain situations, you know, in the ER somebody needs It's a bone reduced or cardioversion or something like that. That's great. But we we started with different we've been using, we've been using PRP, platelet rich plasma therapy where you take the blood for a while for for years and have really good results with it. And we went to a conference, very reputable Toby conference. And we were seeing just really good new studies, where you know, a lot of MDS videos, were starting or starting to publish the effects of adipose specifically. And what really caught our attention at that conference was the actual properties of the atopos could be used as scaffolding. And so if you had like a large tear this up a lot of times, historically, when we would require surgery, you could actually go in and with once again, ultrasound is such a huge innovation part of the progression of medicine right now. But you can see those defects and use adipose tissues as not only just a regenerative part of the treatment, where the cells are differentiating and becoming the tenants stronger and better compared to surgery, where oftentimes you're taking away are using a cadaver tendon. But you have that property plus almost a scaffolding, where you backfill it in like potty, it would do it in and they were showing case after case where the you know, a year later, you couldn't tell that there was a defect to begin with. And the MRIs would actually thought that it was a cadaver lab because it replaced the tissue. So well. And so we started thinking about these cases. And, and, you know, the FDA kind of made a little bit more challenging a few years ago to get into this when we thought we need to do this. And we found a way and and, and to do it right, and within the bounds of practicing medicine safely. And and we have been so happy since we've done it because the effects have just have given us even more capability than what we had had been used before PRP, which is still awesome. And we still use. But the when we found out about that utilize it, we've been so pleased with results
Greg Voisen
that the Intel effect kits have worked well. And this isn't really this is not meant to be a commercial. What we're really trying to do is educate people, that there are alternative ways, right? And there are alternative ways. I mean, look, you use other things besides the intelli fat kid as well. I'll be honest with you, I just went down and got a red light laser treatment on a Thor machine for my knee that Dr. Berman did for me. And he doesn't like every other because I got hit by a dog in a dog park and he knocked me off my feet. And I can tell you after six treatments with the red light and the laser on the Thor machine, which is not a cheap machine, to literally put it on there and heat it up and do it. This knee is like almost, it's like literally healed since since I got hit by that dog. And I was in excruciating pain. So I'm not saying hey, you got to go get intelli fat. But if you have cases where you guys believe intelli fat can work, and you pull out the adipose and you filter it, and then after you filter it after you filter it, you literally end up with the fat that you can inject back into either the shoulder, the knee or the hip or wherever you're doing it. So this this question, basically coming up here, Carter, is for you. It's kind of around the mechanism. Can you explain how the intelli fat kit works? What's the scientific principles behind it, their effectiveness in treating the pain because of all of the things you could do? We've heard from doctor after doctor after doctor, and we're glad to have you guys on as well, that it has worked phenomenally well about 85% of the time that we're seeing huge improvements after six weeks now there is some swelling. We understand that. But the reality is, you know, tell us a little bit about it. You're the one that's doing it.
Carter Kerber
Yeah, yeah, I mean, I'm just implementation implementing an idea that Trevor brought but the the intellifax I also want to thank like the Toby in Aom conferences as well. Some cool areas, conferences were innovative physicians meet up and they also were able to elaborate and explain a lot of things to us as well. But the Intel effect kits are pretty neat. We, you know, we started off doing a lot of PRP therapy with a to m trying to decrease arthritis progression. It works great for a lot of soft tissue repairs, tendons, ligaments, but we wanted to do something that hit like osteoarthritis a little bit harder, like almost irreversible degeneration, and there's not a whole lot other than, you know, surgery or steroid injections, which we know don't ever last. And so that the very basics at the very basics, the adipose stem cell procedure just seems to be super advanced to the point where I found out that there was more mesenchymal stem cells actually in your fat tissue than there was mesenchymal stem cells per volume in bone marrow, I'll bet there is more bone marrow stem cells, just different versions of them. But when when we kind of found that out now, we know that when we when we concentrate that and we actually use it with PRP, the the adipose stem cells and those lipid cells will actually create like an extracellular matrix. And then in doing so, a diff does some cell differentiation. And so it can actually increase blood flow, some angiogenesis to the area. Stimulating you know, not only just almost like a patchwork, but Fibro cartilage repair, and most of the cartilage in like a need for say, is Highland cartilage, but replacing that is extremely difficult. And with the adipose stem cells, it almost acts as a filler regenerator vascularisation promoter and it is like a combination of PRP, hyaluronic acid injections on steroids.
Greg Voisen
You know, say this, you say this hate to interrupt you. But I remember speaking with a doctor on this podcast, and he said, not only in an invasive surgery, like a disc surgery on the back, we literally use the Intel effect kit, after in the healing time was cut in less than half as a result of actually doing the injections after doing a disk repair and a surgery, which just is mind blowing when you think about it, because there you are. I mean, it's right on top of something where somebody had invasive yet, they could have gone on for a long time to heal. But the healing was response was just phenomenal. Make sense?
Greg Voisen
Do you have some case studies, Trevor, have people where you both have utilized these intelli fat and the adipose on the patients and their success rate? I mean, you have any stories that our listeners would know, yeah, yeah, I, you know, I had a sore shoulder, but I couldn't play golf, or I couldn't play tennis or I couldn't do the sports I want or I couldn't run because the knee was bad, or whatever it might be. You have any great stories?
Carter Kerber
I'd love to hear that. Yeah, that extracellular matrix can stimulate that a cell signaling pathway, it just it's like, it's like taking us satellite and distributing it multiple times. And that in itself helps, you know, tell the body well, this is what we need to repair. Let's let's go down and do do more than what it already does.
Dr. Trever Wilkins
i Yeah, for sure. And the response from the patients has exceeded expectation, and just what the mechanism once again, like you can't come up with a better drug if you try because it has anti inflammatory properties. It has the actual, you know, kind of putty property to it, where it fills, and then it has the regrowth component to it. And well, we just today, we had a patient that was following up for something else. And we're, you know, just caught him in the hall and how are you doing? He was so happy, his pains improved, he's able to already do more. And this is a month out from from the procedure. And it really makes sense when you think about those properties that has the anti inflammatory, it has some cushioning in there, in addition to the growth, but I mean, that's literally today before we came
Carter Kerber
in, he actually was about to get a knee replacement through mail and was just kind of searching on alternative options. Yeah, it you know, it's nice to hear that people are hearing about this, but a lot of people don't know that they have these options.
Greg Voisen
I mean, is he gonna was he gonna go to the Scottsdale clinic there? And again, the male. Yeah, it's interesting, because I've worked with them. We actually the company that I helped with the app, developed an app for physical therapists. That is the was the 20 for Life app. It's now being used at Mayo, and it has 2000 videos with exercises on it and all that kind of stuff. So really interesting. So what are some of the challenges you face when integrating regenerative medicine technologies like Intel effect kits into your practice? And how do you guys address any of these challenges that you might have? One of the challenges we know, we're from outside is, hey, this is great stuff. But right now, the insurance carriers aren't covering it. Let's talk a little bit about that.
Dr. Trever Wilkins
Thank you. Yeah, once again, you know, one of the kind of the themes that we've that led to the creation of this practice, is the shortcomings in conventional medicine. And along with that, I mean, the hospitals are literally failing, like, and it's a failed system, yet, patients still have that mindset of, I have insurance, you know, take take care of, you know, all my problems. But unfortunately, there's a lot of shortcomings with this medical system that we have that I'm sorry, it's kind of hard to say, but it's, it's failed. The way that it's been set up, even despite amazing Madison is the delivery of it. But patients have this mindset. Understandably, that, hey, I'm paying a ton of money for insurance. Why is insurance not covering this? And you know, what it one of the ways that we approach it is, you know, first of all, like we, we really emphasize and focus on that individualized treatments, there's so many patients that we get story after story where I'm not heard, I'm kind of pushed along, and not heard. And when we have the time to sit down and talk to them, and educate them, and we'll tell them, we do everything that all the conventional medicine will do it, and we do it when it makes sense to do it. But we want to educate you on what's available. And unfortunately, this type of medicine is far more advanced than our failing medical system, unfortunately, which they really should catch on to it because, you know, some of these regenerative treatments I'll be at they are, you know, the there isn't investment, it's, it's less with time and resources compared to surgery.
Greg Voisen
So if you take into consideration Pardon me, but you know, in conventional medicine, a doctor comes in and says, Let's do the knee and you got $50,000 in any versus $5,000 in an injection from here, it's 1/10 the cost and we know from a sustainability standpoint, that these kink things can work for six 810 years. It just depends on the lifestyle people adopt after they do this, eating better exercising, doing all the things properly that they need to do, even in your later years, you know, lifting weights doing stuff like that, that make it better in comments from you guys.
Dr. Trever Wilkins
Well, yeah, absolutely. Not to mention, some of the cases that we've had so far with stem cells are people that have already had surgery. And just because you have surgery doesn't mean that it's going to resolve the problem. We have a lot. A lot of cases like this. Just recently, yeah. Do you
Carter Kerber
do you want do you want lineman big guy, he's 28 to lateral meniscus tear when he was in his final year of college. And they ended up you know, they thought a lot. I'm not sure how complex the tear was prior to the surgery, but they ended up doing a complete lateral meniscectomy. And I mean, now he is great for contemplation on the on that lateral tibial and plateau and condyle. And we trim it that's kind of where that mechanism of action comes into play. Like I thought what can I do to almost create a scaffolding to help support the need because it's grinding where it's not supposed to? And yeah, I mean, we did stem cells combined it with PRP and then did another PRP in a month and you know, that we reached out to him a couple couple of weeks ago about eight months later and he's you know, less knee clicking he said it would pop out of place multiple times a day. He it no more constant aching. He's almost pain free and maybe a one if he exercises a little bit too hard, but then that ended up going away. And so yeah, I mean, we're really pleased with how it's turning.
Greg Voisen
Have you did you guys use intelli fat on him or just the PRP or did you use both telephony?
Dr. Trever Wilkins
With with Intel fat, the processing the way that it's created like we, we believe like we we think that it is the best way to do it. That's it, we want the best results. And that's why we chose Intel fat light and we like it once again. The results have exceeded our expectations. Sorry.
Carter Kerber
Go ahead. You're I might have missed your question. Were you saying did we use it with PRP product
Greg Voisen
Well, it sounds like you, you did PRP and intelli fat? Or did you just use until the fat? You did both? We
Dr. Trever Wilkins
can't Yeah, we often will do a combination. Well,
Greg Voisen
it sounds like he had a really severe case. So I could see where it was probably necessary. And so you started a little bit less strong with the PRP. And then you ended up doing the Intel a fat after you did it. It was one of the later procedures would that be right? Or was it the first year
Carter Kerber
actually combined on same day. And so I, I actually want to give a shout out to Paul Portland, he runs the New England Stem Cell Institute, he we've been communicating back and forth. And we've kind of adopted some of his plans as well, where you use PRP same day. And that actually helps provide an environment for the stem cells to survive, and gives more platelets and growth factors and angiogenesis stimulating factors. So it can it can build those new blood flow pathways. So the tissue actually becomes a live organism. It's not just an injection, it's, it's part of your body at that point. So
Greg Voisen
well, you know, Paul, torque, torque, Lin has done several videos for us. And so I think we got to you as a result of Dr. toward one. So we're very, very familiar with Dr. torlon. Because he uses a lot of our kids every month. So it's it's good. So question for you on, you know, where's this headed? Can you discuss any case or clinical evidence, and I know we've got some, but I thought maybe you guys that support the use of intelli fat kits, obviously, you understand the process, you know how this works? You've been trained and doing it and injecting it into the patients. Anything that you found additionally, that would help somebody who's listening to this, whether they're a physician or a patient, say, hey, there is clinical evidence about this.
Dr. Trever Wilkins
Yeah, the it is in its infancy, and there are so many physicians that are starting to publish them out that will come with and that that continues to increase with time. And, and that's important, and we embrace evidence based medicine. And we continue to see more and more evidence, whether it's imaging, like even even ourselves with the ultrasound that we'll do, we're seeing obvious changes, in addition to the clinical effects. But once again, I think that it's important to also give the experience in the practice of medicine is due respect. Because the evidence is is emerging. But we're seeing on a daily basis, the feedback that we that we get from the patients. And I think that the statistic that you mentioned with 85% success rate, we are certainly seeing at least that, like we're getting good response with with every patient, that we that we've done
Greg Voisen
that adipose treatment, well, we're actually seeing long term results too. So these aren't like okay, I injected you in a year later, nothing, we're actually actually seeing long term healing rate. So it's really a good effect. And it's it's a really a strong vote for the use of fat in injectables or atopos. To actually do this. Now, you guys are using all kinds of other things in your practice to have been to your website, you're kind of leaders in regenerative medicine and the way in which you approach it. Where do you see this headed in the next 510 years, especially with advancements in minimally invasive technologies? That would be one thing. I mean, look, we're, we're growing cells now, right? Now, instead of taking them out of your body, although the FDA says you have to inject those bacteria and for anyone listening within, you got to do it the same day, the process has to be within the same day. So unless that law changes, I don't think growing cells outside is going to be something we might be doing. Do you see any other things?
Dr. Trever Wilkins
I think what, what I see is conventional medicine, having a lot of shortcomings, and even even doing this for a few years. Each year, more and more people are approaching us with with regenerative medicine. And the I mean the the future is now with with what we have. And I think the first task and the reason we're so glad that you are have a mission to spread this message and we want to spread it to is we have so many there's so many regenerative treatments that people just don't under is available or don't know how to get. And I think that we're going to see people continue to look at answers that they're not getting from conventional medicine. And they're getting it. And I think the more people that learn about the options with regenerative medicine, we're gonna continue to see more and more people start to invest in themselves and hopefully, conventional medicine to follow suit.
Carter Kerber
Yeah, I would, I would like to go off of that, too. You said, talking about what we what else we can implement in the body works on the outside as well, it is on the inside, right. And so we're trying to incorporate like, hormone replacement therapy, natural ways to decrease cardiovascular disease, focus on peptides that stimulate
Carter Kerber
tissue repair on their own, or release more levels of your own growth
Carter Kerber
hormone to kind of fight that aging response. I would say I would say the hardest part about all of this is we have an abundance of things that we can do. All righty, the hardest part is integrating it into each individual person as specific as possible. But yeah, no, I mean, absolutely falling in love with the field. And I want to keep progressing
Carter Kerber
it with Trevor.
Greg Voisen
I think one of the things I recently heard guys, and I don't know if you can attest to this, but you know how we get body scans. And if you go to a hospital, because there's the machine there to do it, they're now saying that we're going to get to a point where we could do a full body scan, which I think, you know, looking for osteoarthritis looking for challenges that we're having internally, including heart issues and so on, it seems like it might be moving in a wave toward conventional medicine adopting it, because they can prevent challenges that are going to cost them more money, actually, from an insurance standpoint. So what I'm hoping is that people like you and other doctors who are using our kids are going to be at the forefront there, obviously, are right now at the forefront of it and bring heightened awareness to honestly really the insurance carriers to say, Okay, we're going to start covering this, because you're paying us a heavy premium anyway. And by the way, it's going to save us money actually. And long term, it's going to cost us less money. Because really, that's what we've got to look at is the optimal health, like you guys optimize you health. I mean, we have to look at optimal health. And we have to look at longevity. I mean, people like who are doing podcasts out there every day doctors that have kind of taken like you guys have, they've said no, we're not going to do traditional medicine. And one of them is Dr. Peter Attia has a huge podcast show listened by 1000s of people around longevity, wrote a book on longevity, we're starting to see at the forefront of the spear. People are interested this are really taking a hold and saying, Hey, I'm going to do something about my own health. I'm not going to wait for somebody to tell me. Are you finding that to and your practice?
Dr. Trever Wilkins
You though said so well. And I appreciate that. And we're seeing that. And sometimes the future might be going back to the past and doing the fundamentals. Well, that should have been done right the first time. Right, we quite frankly, need to just look at the failure for what it is. For example, I have a 40 year old patient does CrossFit every day and mindful of what he eats, doing the right things, and his cholesterol was off just a little bit. And so we said you know, like, traditionally it would be Hey, you know, lifestyle modification. We said you know what, let's take this a step. Step further, we did a screening exam exam with a with a coronary calcium score. It turns out that he was moderate high risk for, for for arterial disease. He was a walking time bomb at 40, despite very small changes in his cholesterol that 99% of the time and conventional medicine would would be overlooked. We've been able to intervene, get everything perfect. We use it once again, conventional medicine pharmaceutically. And then once again, really taking seriously the lifestyle modifications, details, not just not just empty words about hey, nutrition doing, you know, these general guidelines that nobody's going to do but meeting with the trainer and nutritionist. And that you think about what would happen if we were caught this 10 years from now when he was completely occluded. And he was in the emergency department for a Widowmaker it was a guy with young with young children and so yeah, the you know, I think I think
Greg Voisen
well you know, you you guys probably know this and I'll probably it's you're speaking to the choir here but over here where I live and by San Diego, there is two machines, one at UCSD and another one in Encinitas, the city that I live in, where collateral arteries are actually being forced to grow as a result of compression. So they're actually compressing the arms and the legs in the body and you go through these treatments, it's about $6,000. But the reality is, is if you look at Dr. Gandhi, who's written, there's been paper and paper written, these people will come in who've had triple bypass, and then they say, now you got another bypass, they go through this process with actually developing greater collateral arteries. Now, I think one of the best ways to develop collateral arteries is obviously exercise, right? And the more you exercise, the more collateral you're going to have. But for people maybe a little bit more sedentary and aren't doing that, this machine compresses you, and actually creates the collateral arteries. And people are up doing what they were doing and lifestyle change and no triple bypass. Right? So I mean, it's pretty, it's pretty amazing where we've gone with this alternative therapy. Again, it is alternative, but it should be conventional, it should be something we're doing instead of going in and cracking someone's chest and opening up and, you know, taking the vein out of their leg and putting in the artery and it should be hey, let's try this first. Right, let's, let's do this. So, go ahead. What not react, let's
Carter Kerber
just be proactive.
Greg Voisen
Yeah, well, what advice? Oh, go ahead. Go ahead, Trevor.
Dr. Trever Wilkins
Oh, I was just commenting on what you were saying. But I think conventional medicine lags so far behind the innovations. And so having, once again, that's what we love about our practices, we can we can stay ahead of the curve and not be limited with with some of those things that you're talking about. Because you're 100%, right, like the thought of cracking open somebody's chest. Instead of doing some compression, you look at the risk versus benefit. There's, there's no question
Greg Voisen
about that. Yeah. Well, look, you guys have been wonderful being on the show and have a final question here. What advice would you give patients who are listening to the show, or other physicians who are regular MDS or whatever, who are considering changing their practice, about the use of regenerative medicine treatments for pain management, for almost many of the things you're treating, I'd love to get you to give us a give our listeners some advice.
Dr. Trever Wilkins
You know, I I am a huge proponent of patients educating themselves as much as possible. And we have so much available to us. And I and I have 100% confidence, and I see it when when, when patients learn about what's available. The it makes the decision, you know, very easy a lot of time with, with making the decision to use some more of these innovative approaches that are, quite frankly, just less invasive. And so sometimes in medicine doctors get get upset that people are consulting Dr. Google, I say, please consult Dr. Google. And then let's have a conversation about let's work together. Because medical degree is on Google. It's all out there.
Greg Voisen
Or it's Dr. Chat GBT now. Because I've never found something that can't even need to check it out. But I'll tell people type in almost any question. And Mr. Chat, GBT is going to come back with some kind of answer. Now, it might be wrong. But the reality is, there's a lot of truth in there as well. So you have to filter through it. But we have more information at hand. Yes, we seem to see, we seem to be a little bit dense about how we could go about doing this. And I think the key here today is we have two professionals that have been on the line with us. One a doctor, the other one a PT, I'm just going to say your PT because that's what's on your deal. But you're more than that. Yeah. And the reality is, is that, you know, with lifestyle changes with using things like the intelli fat kits, where your pain is today, it could certainly be relieved as a result of looking at some alternatives whether it's intelli fat or something else. We're How do you guys keep yourself up dated on all the developments in this field and what new things or methods are you thinking about adopting or have adopted or where do you see it going?
Dr. Trever Wilkins
Yeah, the you know, the, the go back to the advice of other physicians is what we've we found ourselves It's, it is just as always learning there is so much available at our fingertips. There's so many awesome webinars by reputable organizations that are available very conveniently, that we try to take, take advantage of, you know, some of these organizations ALM Toby, there's more that are providing so much information and doing it in a in the validated scientific method that we're used to, with our, with our formal training. And so we we love those conferences we love, we love seeing other providers that are that are doing what we can do it right, as we like to think where they're, they're just using the best medicine, they're open minded, they're there, they're innovative. And so we try to do that. And we really try to embrace what you here's the cliche is the practice of medicine. And it's, it's understanding that we come up with unique problems. And instead of trying to put everybody into a few diagnoses and treatments, it's really understanding that process and taking each taken each of the complaints at face value and not being dismissive with the patients, but it's a continual learning program that we just we just loved, especially getting the results. You know, one of the things that we're really looking at with the with the with next app is, is advanced, expanded laboratory tests with looking at the genetic component in really being able to fine tune these treatments that we're already doing, like once again, using given using a adipose treatment on somebody, we know that if they're if their health and we understand their genetics, we understand, you know, the gut biome, all those things that we can do to create the best healing environment, the more success you're gonna have. And so we're really, really interested in those adjunct treatments and really expanding and taking advantage of these these testing.
Greg Voisen
Yeah, it's important, Carter, any parting words from you, Carter?
Carter Kerber
Yeah, I mean, Trump does a good job of explaining all that. But, but I kind of look at every patient as a as an opportunity for learning. I hate that there's been, you know, I mean, younger provider. And so I kind of liked that aspect of it, because I have so much more to learn. And I've also learned so much just in the field, but like, in my first rotation is outpatient. It was outpatient internal medicine, it's like I would see a patient have have a problem or a symptom, maybe put on a medication, you know, a couple years later, whatever they have, they're developing other symptoms. And the next thing you know, you're prescribing a medication that's never existed in our environment naturally ever, and you're treating symptoms because of medications with more medications. The next thing, you know, they're in 20 Plus medications, I just want to let people know, like, don't be afraid to tackle any problem. Like if you've come across something that you're not sure of, or you're scared to take, take, take a gander at, like, you know, use it as a learning experience. And I try to follow up even patients that I refer out, I want to know, like if there was something else that they they were able to achieve. And there's a lot of patients that have been looking for, you know, years for some sort of relief, and were their last hope. And now they're, you know, lifelong patients. And so I just think every every opportunity that you learn, you have to advance and learn, you know, look it up chat CBT other medical websites, you know, webinars, everything. So,
Greg Voisen
yeah, well, that's a good point. And I was gonna say, because I think that Trevor and I discussed this on our pre interview. You know, Dan Buettner has been on this show, and he's the guy that did the Blue Zones, right. And the important thing about Blue Zones is all about longevity. Where did these blue zones exist, and then what happens in those blue zones, what's actually happening? And the reality is what you guys are doing around lifestyle is really what creates longevity in our life. And the important thing is, is people want longevity, but they also want it without pain. So the additionally you're creating the without pain part of it, because an older person wants to be able to walk three miles a day without having that pain in their hip or their knee or their shoulder or whatever. So my hat's off to both of you for doing what you do. For all of my listeners, you can go to www optimize iu health.com. If you're in the Chandler Arizona area, or any of the surrounding Arizona areas, please check out their clinic. Check out Trevor Wilkins. He certainly is somebody who's very well known in this thing and Carter and give them a call. Actually, you know, go in or text the person at the bottom of their website. They're asking a question it's been a pleasure having you guys both on inside personal growth and I look forward to having you back again someday soon
Dr. Trever Wilkins
Oh thank you so much it's been a pleasure thanks Greg Nice to meet you
Greg Voisen
Nice to meet you.
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Inside Personal Growth with Greg Voisen · Podcast 1117: Leadership Revolution with Lori MazanIn our recent conversation, we had the pleasure of speaking with Lori Mazan, the co-founder, president, and chief coaching officer at Sounding Board. Lori’s extensive experience in executive coaching and her innovative approach to leadership development culminate in her new book, “Leadership Revolution: The Future of Developing Dynamic Leaders.” This book is not just a theoretical guide but a practical toolkit grounded in real-world experiences.
The Changing Landscape of Leadership Development
Lori highlights a significant gap between traditional leadership development practices and the current needs of organizations. The workplace environment has transformed dramatically over the past decade, yet many companies still rely on outdated methodologies rooted in the previous century. A McKinsey survey revealed that only 10% of executives believe their leadership programs are effective, a startling statistic that underscores the urgent need for a new approach.
Moving Beyond Command and Control
The old command-and-control style of leadership, reminiscent of military hierarchies, no longer fits the dynamic and diverse nature of today’s workforce. Lori argues that leadership development must be personalized, context-driven, and accelerated to keep pace with the rapid changes in the business environment. The one-size-fits-all model is obsolete; instead, organizations need tailored strategies that cater to the unique strengths and contexts of their leaders.
The Unique Approach of “Leadership Revolution”
What sets Lori’s book apart is its structure, designed to function like a series of 12 coaching sessions. Each chapter builds on the previous one, providing a cohesive framework for transformative leadership development. This approach mirrors a real coaching engagement, offering practical questions at the end of each chapter to help readers apply the concepts to their own contexts.
Lori emphasizes that coaching should be about making significant, accelerated changes rather than incremental improvements. By identifying and focusing on the “big leap”—the transformational change needed—leaders can achieve substantial growth in a shorter time frame.
Letting Go of Outdated Thinking
A critical aspect of leadership transformation is letting go of outdated thinking and behaviors. This process requires leaders to become aware of their ingrained habits and be willing to embrace new approaches. Lori notes that many leaders struggle with this because it involves stepping out of their comfort zones and risking failure. However, clinging to familiar methods that no longer serve their goals only hinders progress.
Lori’s coaching approach involves helping leaders focus their efforts on what truly matters to them and their organizations. By shifting their mindset and aligning their actions with their core objectives, leaders can achieve greater satisfaction and effectiveness.
The Power of Coaching in Leadership Development
Lori advocates for the widespread adoption of leadership coaching, a practice that has traditionally been reserved for top executives. Companies like Sounding Board are leveraging technology to make coaching accessible to leaders at all levels. Coaching provides a partnership that helps leaders navigate their unique challenges and develop their personal leadership style, ultimately benefiting the entire organization.
Transformative Leadership in Practice
In her book, Lori provides practical tools and questions that guide leaders through the process of transformation. She encourages leaders to reflect on their experiences, challenge their assumptions, and take actionable steps towards their goals. By integrating these practices into their daily routines, leaders can foster a culture of continuous improvement and innovation within their organizations.
Conclusion
“Leadership Revolution” is more than just a book; it’s a comprehensive guide for leaders seeking to adapt and thrive in today’s fast-paced business world. Lori Mazan’s insights and methodologies offer a fresh perspective on leadership development, emphasizing the importance of personalized, context-driven approaches. Whether you’re an emerging leader or a seasoned executive, Lori’s book provides valuable tools to help you navigate the complexities of modern leadership and drive meaningful change in your organization.
For more information on Lori Mazan and Sounding Board, visit soundingboardinc.com. And don’t forget to grab a copy of “Leadership Revolution” to start your journey towards becoming a dynamic and effective leader.
You may also refer to the transcripts below for the full transciption (not edited) of the interview.
Interview Transcipt -Not EditedEmailDownloadNew TabGreg Voisen
Welcome back to Inside Personal Growth. This is Greg Voisen, the host of Inside Personal Growth. And joining us from Orange County, California. What city are you actually in? Lori?
Lori Mazan
I'm actually in Laguna Niguel, California, right near Laguna Beach, Laguna
Greg Voisen
Niguel, which isn't very far from me. And she has a new book out called Leadership revolution. The subtitle is the future of developing dynamic leaders. Laurie is the co-founder of a company called sounding board. And for all of my listeners, it's sounding board inc.com. There, you can learn more about the book under the Resource tab, as well, the top little button there, you'll see it says, leadership revolution, please look for it. And Lori, I'm going to let our listeners know a tad bit about you because they can go to the website and read the history of the company, because you are a co-founder. And we'll speak a little bit in one of my questions about your other co-founder. She is the co-founder president and chief coaching officer at sounding board. That's an organization that offers executive style coaching for most leaders when they need it the most. She has 25 years experience coaching fortune 100 C suite executives at companies like Tapjoy conveyor convexity, is that correct? Chevron, and, and Citibank and many, many more, you can go to the website and see all of the logos of the companies that she's worked with. Again, we'll have a link to Amazon to this book. Everybody, please go out and get a copy of what Lori and I say today entices you moves you inspires you in any way. i Please encourage you to go do that. Well, Laurie, let me start out with this. Obviously, it was great to go to your co-founder. And she wrote the foreword to the book. And Christine Teo states, she is the co founder states that your guidance in the book is not just theoretical, that it's an approach grounded in real world experiences, and that it offers tools and actual insights. And without and Dudley transformed the way the reader will lead. And I agree with it, because it's actually quite an unusually written focus kind of book. And we'll get into that the way you approached it, it is quite unique. And I want to put my hat's off to you. Sometimes companies like Wiley won't do that. They'll look at it. And there's a lot of pushback. But it's almost like for everybody listening 12 coaching sessions to you. What is it in your estimation that needs to fundamentally change for leaders to be able to build sustainable organizations where leadership shifts, and I'm going to repeat that shifts, and leaders are mentored from other leaders. So we're talking about succession now to carry on the real work. And I say the real work underline of a leader because, you know, we're in a very luid market right now. Everything's moving at really, really rapid speeds. And I was in a group yesterday, Lori, with Brian Tracy, Jim Cathcart. We were all meeting in La Jolla, and these are all people that speak about leadership and building your business and do this. And there are all kinds of speakers and authors. The interesting thing, they all said, we had somebody from the four seasons there. And he said, You know, it's very hard for us to find leaders we can't find in this generation. And he didn't mean it negatively. He just said, it's very hard to find the people with the emotional intelligence to do the jobs as mid-level meet leaders. Yeah.
Lori Mazan
And senior leaders. I mean, you're making the point for me, which is the environment at work has changed dramatically over the last five years, 10 years. And yet the way organizations develop leaders is rooted in the last century. So, there's just this big gap between what's needed currently, and what organizations are offering in terms of leader development succession progression. And there is a McKinsey survey maybe about two years ago that discovered that only 10% of executives believe their leadership programs are successful. In other words, when they look down on the organization, they see those leaders not being able to do that. Job 90% of the time. I mean, that is a shocking stat right there. And if that doesn't get you to rethink your leader development program, I'm not really sure what will? Well,
Greg Voisen
You know, you and I are old enough to understand that in the days of the years that we've come through and journey through this arena, that it was a lot more of a command and control kind of environment. And it was, you know, when you look at leadership, we often think of the military. And when you think of the military, you look at this hierarchical structure of leadership, that was totally based on command and control, you do what I say? Or else kind of thing. That doesn't work anymore. That is the old way. How do you see us embracing a new leadership methodology? Because there's hundreds of them out there that actually work with the current gen Zers. X ers warriors, the whole gamut across the line? Yeah,
Lori Mazan
I think that command and control approach really originated in an environment that was a quite a bit more predictable and structured. And so maybe it worked. You know, back in the day, I did a lot of work with MCI, and they were all ex military. But still, even at that point, the employees themselves were revolting against that kind of command and control approach. And that was 30 years ago. So we've been fighting this battle for a bit. I think one of the big differences between last century in this century, is how many generations are in the workforce, and how personalized people want their development to be. So in the last century, the workforce was much more homogenous, you might be able to say, here's five traits a leader should have. And that would be true, and some majority of the cases, now that doesn't work, there isn't a way to be a leader that is successful, if there was we would all be doing it, and all those links would be successful. So now the leader development has to be individually driven, it has to be context driven, it has to be accelerated it you, we used to have 20 years to develop leaders, you know, you the companies hired employees that post education and get them through retirement. Now you got less than five years, maybe 3.5 years to develop your leaders. So it has to be very accelerated. So that kind of simple, like, here's five traits of a leader, even if those five traits are good. You know, it's just not going to work in the current environment, those five traits might work in one context, but don't work at all in another context.
Greg Voisen
That is the you've hit on something that's really important. I know, yesterday, we gotten a just a brief discussion about, you know, Ken Blanchard situational leadership, the people that invented these various models. And I'm not saying we're throwing the baby out with the bathwater, we're saying, take pieces and parts and take pieces and segments of these to actually rebuild something that's customized for your leaders. Now you state that, you know, you want the reader to think of these 12 chapters in the book as 12 coaching session says, and I said a few minutes ago, it's a pretty unique way to approach the book. With each building on the last, you mentioned that it is an untraditional approach for a book which it really is. But you wanted to break the old assumption of what works. And I think you're following your own medicine, about leadership. For one Emerging Leader works for all emerging leaders, meaning, hey, one size doesn't fit all. Everybody's like a different size here. Right? So how would you advise the upper level management of companies today to take the most effective journey down the path with coaching because coaching has become, you know, I think it's a word that's overused to be honest with you. And it is I'm not saying that I'm burnt out on it. But I'm saying is advisors, consulting, coaching, whatever you might say, if there is a new term for what it is that people do, we should figure out what it
Lori Mazan
could have a new name because I actually my neighbor got a paint coach, which was somebody who's going to tell you what color to paint your house I was like, like, I don't think that's a coach, actually, this is what I'm talking about is specifically leadership coaching, it is having a partner, as a leader, who helps you identify your most successful way of the, of leading of, of moving forward, the organizational, and maybe even your personal agenda. Because these days, people really are connected to the mission and the impact of organizations. And that can be very inspirational for folks. So, you know, it's not, you're not a leader if no one's following you. And if you're using force to make people follow you, you're still not really leader there. So having a thinking partner, that can help you really identify your best way of operating in an organization to meet yours and organizational goals is, is key these days. I mean, I think the people at the top of the organization have known this for a while. And then the early days kept it kind of a secret. But now the cats out of the bag, and really every leader of organization should have a coach and companies like sounding board, and there are others have used technology to try to make this available for every leader. Yeah,
Greg Voisen
sounding board does a great job. And for all of my listeners, do sit, seriously go to sounding board inc.com, you'll find out how they do it. And they're using a combination of technology, and the personal elements associated with it. And you know, we could dive into all the things that in the characteristics that we'd like to see in leaders today and say, Oh, well, did you take the disc? Or did you take the, you know, various tests that are out there that kind of give us a clue as to who's going to be a good leader. And it was interesting, this gentleman yesterday was speaking, who is a top top executive at Four Seasons was saying, you know, he has in his office, all this memorabilia around the walls. And he is kind of head of HR. And when somebody comes in, he's looking for a leader. He's got Beatles stuff. And he's got pictures of his kids at Disneyland with himself. And he intentionally does that. And he says, the first time somebody comes in, I asked him, Is there anything on this, these walls? It's relatable to you? And he says the ones that say there's nothing relatable, he says thank you. But I guess our interview is over. Because the reality is, they're in the customer service business, you have to be able to put the dots together. I thought it was a great little story to say, hey, look, his walls, he says it's failed. He's got a guitar. He's got this. He's got things. You know, is there anything up there that you and I could have a conversation about? To write? Yeah, it gives him a lot of stuff. Though, in your chapter on the big leap, you say that it's it is time to stop relying on the leadership paradigms of the past century, which we just talked about? Can you discuss some of the ideas for how to identify, you know, in your case, this big leap of how the leaders that are listening today would use the questions that you pose, and for all of my listeners, I'm going to hold the book up again, because in the back of each one of these chapters, which is I'm not gonna call it genius, because a lot of people use questions. But Lori's questions are really, really dynamic. They get you thinking she's written about it. And then she's giving you questions. So how are these questions that you pose at the end of these chapters to become, you know, more creative about the transformation of leadership within their specific organizations, or
Lori Mazan
even within themselves? So you're, it's, you've kind of picked up on the uniqueness of the book. Some people tried to say this was a self help book, but it actually isn't because I don't ever really tell you what to do. What I do at the end of the chapter is list a set of coaching questions specifically geared towards the topic of that chapter to help you either make the big leap yourself or if you're a learning development leader, to make that big leap for your organization. And at sounding board, we start every coaching, engagement, identifying the big leap, and the reason for this is coaching is not about incremental change slowly over years. Coaching is accelerated adaptive element, which means in three or six months or a year, you're going to be fundamentally different as leader. And for that to happen, it has to be identified very early on, what is the transformational change you need to make. And
Greg Voisen
and you talk about at the beginning of each chapter, you say, In this session, this is what's going to happen in this next session, and they build on one another. In other words, there's like this building block through the 12 sessions, you're actually almost giving somebody in your book, the ability to actually learn to be a coach, by using your book on its own. They wanted to learn to coach themselves if they wanted to.
Lori Mazan
Somebody already told me they made a program for new coaches out of it. So.
Greg Voisen
Right, yeah, yeah, it's really, really good that way, Laurie, I mean, I think the design, people need to understand I get a lot of books, people ask me how many books you have in here, I probably have close to 1500, when you find one that has a great design, and the way that it's actually laid out, and I'm going to put a plug in for you, this is one of those books that has a great design, it isn't filled with charts, it isn't filled with this, but it is filled with powerful words that if you read them, it actually can make a change in you. And if you're gonna use it to coach somebody else, you could use it to coach somebody.
Lori Mazan
And that was actually my intention, like not just read a book and put it on the shelf, like that was nice, but read the book and actually take a different action, do something different. And if people do that, as a result of the book, I'll be like, ooh, now I got my satisfaction.
Greg Voisen
Well, as we say, in this industry, it's not a shelf help book. Now it's a self help book. In other words, you're not gonna, you're not gonna just put it on the shell, right? Yeah.
Lori Mazan
So yes, in fact, a few people told me they have to go slow chapter by chapter, because they would, they said, they read like to the third chapter, and then they realize, oh, my gosh, I have to go back to the first cat chapter. Because they did the third chapter, I have to get clear on the first chapter. So it really is incremental on it. And that idea was to give a flavor of a coaching engagement. So you see, the development happens over time? Yeah,
Greg Voisen
no, it is brilliant. In that respect. Now you have a chapter on letting go of outdated thinking. And, you know, if there was one thing that I could say about personal transformation, personal development, having been in this industry forever, it's always about letting go of things that our ego is so attached to that we just, you know, we don't want to let go of them, because we're identifying with them. And the ego wants you to identify it, whether it's power, or force, or whatever. And I think in leadership, a lot of people might not say this, but there is a lot of power being used over other people, right. But that's not the way to deliver it. Okay, and you speak about getting unattached to the way things have been up till now. And that this takes work. And I'm going to tell you, I've been doing these interviews for a long, long time, over 1100 of them with all kinds of people like yourself, and letting go of what it is does take a lot of work. We can talk about it, we can put it in words, we can talk about on these podcasts. But if you don't want to do the work, that's going to be the challenge. So what advice do you have for leaders that need to reinvent the way they lead? And how can you help them? And I'm going to emphasize this let go of the outdated thinking. Yes, that is the hardest part.
Lori Mazan
Yes. So I mean, that is the biggest challenge people would rather hold on to what worked previously, then try something new and risk it failing. So that fear of failure mentioned before, I think is a big factor than, you know, staying in what is known is way more comfortable than trying new things. But the reality is, if what is known is not getting you what you really want. Then now it's time to think about a new way. New actions, new ways of thinking new behavior that really will get you what you want. And one of the things I noticed over years of coaching is people will make a lot of effort towards things they don't want. And it sometimes takes an outside view to say, wait a minute, you said you wanted a and yet you're making a lot of effort towards B. What if you put that effort towards A, and just shifting the frame of reference over towards what they really want? What is compelling for them? What would create that sense of success and satisfaction and impact for them, and keep readjusting the person to that makes a huge difference. And it's very difficult for people to do that for themselves. That's just ease so easy to slip back into what's comfortable, what's known?
Greg Voisen
Well, one of the things I can say, and he wasn't on the show that long ago, Marshall Goldsmith had a book out, and we did it. And you know, everybody knows, he's probably one of the best known coaches, executive coaches out there. And he said, Greg, you know, I could be coaching people that are in the top C suite that have created billion dollar companies, with homes that are beyond belief, you know, 20 30,000 square foot homes and all kinds of money in the bank. And you ask them, Are you content? And they'll say, no, yeah. And he says they don't know when to stop. When is enough? Enough? It's like there you want to talk about overachievers? It's like a overachievers anonymous intro. Right. In other words,
Lori Mazan
it's sad. It's really sad, I have found that exact same thing, which is, people from the outside that looks successful. If you get into the more intimate conversation with them, you'll find out they're not happy. Right? Yeah. Because they haven't somehow created that sense of satisfaction of completion of impact for themselves. And it's very often something very old and them that keeps pushing them forward. And, and never giving them that sense of happiness.
Greg Voisen
Yeah, you know, I have a degree in psychology and, and, you know, you look at childhood experiences, and when were you enough? And did the parents instill that in you, and you'll talk to a lot of Asian people, I speak to them all the time, and they go, that's kind of an Asian mindset. It's like, hey, we want you to be a doctor, we want you to be an attorney, we want you to be a neurosurgeon. You know, it's like, it's, it's a pressure that from generation to generation was passed down. Now, you just said a second ago that you asked leaders become clear, and that they need to know what they want. Okay, great question, Laurie. Although, I bet you if you ask, most people are nine out of 10 Couldn't tell you what they want. It's like the bigger dream. So can you speak with the listeners about what you refer to as this long shadow of being in the local parenthesis? Is that it parents? Apprentice? Yes, yes. And how organizations can embrace a process, which includes coaching, to facilitate their leaders to change their mindsets, think more independently, thus manifesting a positive impact on the organization in the culture? Now, there's a lot in that question, I get it. Yes, it is huge, but I'd like for you to break it down. Because we're coming from the old embracing the new and telling people, Hey, you can think independently and have autonomy to actually change this culture yourself in the organization. Right. So it breaking the question about that's, that's why I'm gonna say
Lori Mazan
yeah, like, it's funny that you lead right into that from this place of people, you know, being compelled by their childhood and never finding a place of happiness, because it leads right into this, which is like in the 60s 70s 80s. This idea of in local apprentice in place of parents was operating both in the college setting and then in the workplace. So the workplace treating, you know, adults as if their children and I call those folks grownups grown up children, not adults. And then you fast forward and you see all these high tech companies providing haircuts and food and dry clean meaning as if they are the parent of that worker, and that worker cannot take care of themselves. And so a dramatic shift needs to happen there, which then provides the employee with that sense of ownership. If you have employees who have that kind of responsibility, thinking and Ownership mindset for their work, you are not going to have to force them into it, they are going to want to do it because they have that sense of ownership by themselves as interesting and sounding board in our employee handbook, we say you are adults, we treat you like adults. And some people don't like that they actually want to be treated like a kid. It's like easier in a way. But that sense of satisfaction and impact and growth and development doesn't come if you're always operating in the child mindset. So Well,
Greg Voisen
I think accountability and self responsibility, yeah, is a big factor. I mean, you know, once you start taking 100%, responsibility for your own actions, is really when you grow up, when you don't look to the outside world and say that, they did it to me, she did it to me, he did it to me, when you really realize that you're the one that's responsible for whatever the outcome was. Now, I know a lot of people just raise their hands and goes, no, because somebody else hit me with that car, or they caused my accident, or I get that there are accidents, although I also know you're responsible for looking for the red lights. You know, Turman in which direction you're going to take, do you have your directionals on meaning the same thing here? Do I have my directionals? On? Yes,
Lori Mazan
you're responsible for your reaction to that event? Right. Right. Yeah. So it's challenging, I think, for organizations, because look, right now, 50% of adults under age 50, are still dependent on their parents financially. 50% That's like a crazy stat. Right? If you look into what's happening at universities, parents are jumping into influence what's happening at those universities? Because paying the tuition like, this is a hard mindset to beat that anybody you know, who has living parents is not an adult yet, I guess. So for organizations to make this change, I know, it's actually a very big ask, but the positive impact for the organization would be tremendous. That's yeah, oh, much less effort on controlling people, and so much more impact, because people are able to manage themselves and create the desired impact or the organization, that that's possible.
Greg Voisen
So true. So true. You know, I you're talking about the universities, the parents stepping in? And yeah, I saw it in all these interviews with the Palestinians and the, and the things going on with the Israelites. And so you know, you, you, you say, Oh, my goodness, the old Beatles song, can't we all just get along? You know, now, you mentioned that leaders avoid change, because they're afraid of failure. And everybody I think is, they're also afraid of success. I'll flip the coin. Bear in mind. How do you lead a coaching client toward not falling back into old habits embracing this new thinking and new mindset? And how would you remove the mental blocks? Yeah. And can you give listeners an example of a story where you got somebody over time to remove mental blocks that were keeping them from doing the things they needed to do and didn't look as failure as at failure as failure? They looked at it as a learning lesson? Yes,
Lori Mazan
yes. fail and learn is what I call it. Well, so there's kind of two answers in there. So one is, you know, how do you get people to take the risk and really try something new. And one of the chapters is called jumping off the cliff. It's almost like a desensitization process. Like the first time you have to jump off the cliff. It's super scary. You might need someone to push you or jump with you or pull you or something. But by the time you jumped off the cliff a couple more times, that was kind of fun. And by You know, the 10 time you jumped off the cliff, now you're getting the adrenaline rush. And you're, you know, going to be one of those clip parachutist or something. So part of it is just getting used to this process of continually trying new things and, and noticing that you don't die, the company doesn't die. We're actually not talking life or death here, we're just talking about trying something new. And seeing how it works and adjusting to make it more effective. I think it really does require a different way of thinking, and just rote practices, not enough. So what sustainable over time is changing your mindset about something and a good example, simple example is the gym. Right? In January, everyone wants to go back to the gym, and they forced themselves to do it, but they didn't change their thinking. So by March, no one's in the gym anymore, right? Because they couldn't sustain that over time. So you have to actually think differently about why you're going to the gym, to make that sustainable over time. A good example in the workplace has to do with delegation. So for new managers, one of the hardest shifts for them to make is delegating to others. In other words, getting the work done with them through others, versus doing it themselves. And they will have 1000 reasons why they should do it themselves. And they will not change that unless they're understanding about the impact of delegation, and their new role as a manager shifts.
Greg Voisen
Yeah, I know that you're probably surprised we're aware of, you know, Carol Dweck book, The, you know, mindset, but it is so true about the the mindsets, you know, it's like, if you really do if you want to talk about the new psychology of success, it really is around mindsets, right? Yeah. And it's so important to understand what Laurie is saying here. I would tell you to embrace her book at the same time. Guy Kawasaki was just on the show, talking about Carol Dweck, and how important change it made in his own life as well. So yeah, yeah, it was interesting. Now,
Lori Mazan
I like her idea around growth mindset. But it leads to another idea I have in the book, which is binary thinking. So I really have not found people to be only have a growth mindset or not have a growth mindset, I have found people to be wanting to be in a growth mindset, but not necessarily actually being able to do that without the help of a coach or somebody else to really walk them forward or push them forward.
Greg Voisen
Well, I'll tell you, no matter how many books I do interviews with these books are tools. They end the end, you have to find the mentors, the people that you want to be with, who've actually gone through the pains that you're going through, and can help coach you just like you've said, through this pain through this change, because usually, there is a pain attached to it. It's an emotional pain. It's really a hard one to break. And in your chapter on breakthroughs, you speak about vertical and horizontal development, and how it helps us build skills and capacity to deal with the unpredictable. And I think uncertainty and unpredictable is probably a big one for anybody because like I'm going to change. Wow, I that's really uncertain. It's also when predictable. Why is vertical development referred to as the tip of the spear? Yeah,
Lori Mazan
this I mean, this is the basic premise of the book, which is in my round was 1970, OSHA started doing safety training for large organizations. And the result was the safety went up in organizations. In other words, they had less accidents and less injuries. And that model of basic skill training got transferred into leader development. And we call that horizontal development. It's foundational development that is generalized and works really well in a predictable environment. Everyone needs it. But that is not enough to develop exceptional leaders. You need to put those sets of skills together in a unique way for that specific leader in their specific context. In this particular situation, and to would develop that sort of art of leadership where you're able to respond rapidly to changing environment. That is the vertical development. It's a set of capabilities and capacities, capabilities being multiple skills use together, capacity being having the internal sense of self that allows you to respond differently to any situation, I call it being the eye of the storm, you're like in that clear space in the middle, even if everything's blowing all around you, and you can have a pretty good 360 view of what's happening and make, you know, an educated, appropriate decision about how to respond. Now, how do you develop that in like our online training course. And we just know those online training courses, only 10% of those are transferred to people's everyday work environment. In other words, they don't, they maybe think about it, but they don't use that in their job. And yet, without some other kind of development, you're going to have leaders only operating at the most basic level, when the environments very complex, and tip of the spear because nobody's really doing this, it's just barely getting started in the company and said, say work with soundboard or that I worked with that as a coach, they have found this to be immensely helpful. And yet, it's not commonly used because it has been difficult to deploy and measure and that kind of thing. And it's really just now being the cutting edge approach.
Greg Voisen
Well, sounding board is using some cutting edge approaches, in particular, you because you're bringing them to the company as the executive coach or the chief executive coach in the company. So I want to encourage all my listeners, again, go to sounding board inc.com To learn more about a sounding board and and Lori's work. Well, you know, the journey that we all take leadership or not, but as human sentient beings here, it's emotional, it's spiritual, it's mental, it's physical. And all of these are interrelated. And in so doing, I'm going to kind of bring this interview to a conclusion with more of a compound question for you. Okay, because this whole third right answer is the whole thing around the coach and CO G. In the meeting of minds, which we already talked about this thinking partnership, and the point in the relationship where you're both modeling a problem and finding a solution. This is extremely important. But I'd like you to answer that question, meaning, what is that like to have a thinking partner? And then secondly, what in your estimation, is what you refer to in the last chapter as the big beyond? Where have we created accelerated development? And what do you see in the future of leadership, personal development, if the leaders are to thrive in this completely transformative, dynamic, always on moving environment that I don't think is going to change in our lifetime? No,
Lori Mazan
I don't think so either. Well, I your first part of your question, I really see coaching as a thinking partnership. And the coach's job, especially at the highest level is to keep opening the door for the participant for the leader, to new ways of thinking, and it's not the coach's job to tell the leader what to do. And I'll give you an example. I was coaching, you know, the senior person at a very large company. And they called me one time at like four in the morning and said, Oh my gosh, there's a coup in another country where we're operating. And they literally said, What should I do? And, you know, as a coach, I can't tell you what to do. You're the senior leader, you are the person has to make the decision, but I can't say, Okay, what's the options? You know, What's the timeframe? What are the parameters? What is this? What is that I just keep asking the questions until the person kind of puts together mentally the plan that they think is going to work in their context in that environment. And just having that literally sounding board that back and forth. And having a person just say, wait a minute, I don't think you know, here's a little hole we haven't talked about yet. What about this other thing over here that we haven't mentioned, and just getting a really full picture of the situation, so the leader can make an appropriate choice is just amazingly helpful. And you're talking there, in that case, you are talking Life and Death people's lives, employee lives, you know, the leader obviously doesn't want to make a big mistake, they're so having that opportunity to think it through even in a short timeframe, and make a choice and make the calls and just incredibly valuable. So I would say, the future of leader development, way beyond skill development, and has to be around capacity development, what are the ways of being that create the most exceptional leaders, and there's no leader that's going to do that alone, or by themselves, or based on online training, it's going to have to be this much more interpersonal, interactive approach to development?
Greg Voisen
Well, you cover a lot of very valuable coaching. In this book, I'm going to hold it up here so people can see it. The leadership revolution or leadership, not the just leadership revolution, the future of developing dynamic leaders, we're going to have a link to this, this is a wily book, we'll have a link to it on Amazon inside the blog, as well as to the sounding board inc.com. There. Also, when you go to the resource section, again, repeat, you can click on a link that has a link to the book and an overview. Obviously, go to Amazon and read the reviews about the book as well. I'll encourage people to do that. And Lori, it's been an honor having you on because you are a unique coach, and you are approaching coaching at sounding board in a new, what I want to call dynamic and resonating way. In other words, this kind of approach should resonate with everybody that we've spoken with this morning. And if it did resonate with you, I just want to encourage you to reach out to the folks at sounding board. Take a peek under the hood. See if this works for you see what they do there maybe is different than what you're doing now. And Laurie is the CO partner or co founder in this company. So you can reach out to her as well. There's information about her on the website. Lori, thanks so much for being on inside personal goals. Namaste to you. I do
Lori Mazan
It's all mine.
Greg Voisen
Oh, thank you so much. It's been a pleasure.
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Inside Personal Growth with Greg Voisen · Podcast 1116: Reinvent with Faisal HoqueIn a recent interview with Greg Voisen on Inside Personal Growth, Faisal Hoque shared profound insights from his latest book, “Reinvent: Navigating Business Transformation in a Hyperdigital Era.” The conversation covered a wide array of topics, focusing on the critical aspects of business transformation, the impact of AI and robotics, and the leadership challenges in the digital age.
The Core of Business TransformationFaisal emphasizes that true transformation transcends mere technological adoption. It involves a holistic change in business models, organizational culture, and operational processes. One of the significant roadblocks in digital transformation is the lack of clarity in vision from leadership. Leaders often struggle to define what transformation means for their organization, leading to a disconnect between their vision and the workforce’s understanding and buy-in.
Hoque outlines three critical factors for successful transformation:
- Clarity of Vision: Leaders must have a clear and comprehensive vision of what transformation entails.
- Effective Communication: This vision needs to be communicated effectively, ensuring that every team member understands their role and the transformation’s benefits.
- Holistic Management: Transformation should not be viewed merely as a technological upgrade but as a comprehensive change in managing processes, communication, and value generation.
The Role of AI and RoboticsThe integration of AI and robotics is drastically altering the business landscape. Hoque points out that while manufacturing sectors are the most obvious beneficiaries, with robots handling more factory tasks, the impact extends to knowledge workers and various other fields. The rapid advancement in these technologies necessitates a shift in mindsets, attitudes and assumptions about how businesses operate and grow.
Sustaining TransformationOne of the challenges in business transformation is maintaining momentum. Often, transformation efforts are driven by charismatic leaders whose departure can lead to a loss of direction. Hoque argues for creating systems and processes that enable continuous innovation and leadership development, ensuring that transformation efforts are sustained regardless of changes in leadership.
Key Takeaways for LeadersFor leaders looking to reinvent their businesses, Hoque offers sage advice:
- Embrace a culture of learning and curiosity to foster innovation.
- Develop sustainable systems that support ongoing transformation.
- Focus on building processes that enable continuous improvement and adaptability
The insights from Faisal Hoque’s interview provide a comprehensive roadmap for businesses navigating the complexities of digital transformation. By focusing on clarity of vision, effective communication, and sustainable practices, leaders can steer their organizations towards a successful and enduring transformation.
Learn more about Faisal by visiting his website. Thanks and happy listening!
You may also refer to the transcripts below for the full transciption (not edited) of the interview.
Interview Transcipt -Not EditedEmailDownloadNew TabGreg Voisen
Well, welcome back to Inside Personal Growth. This is Greg Voisen, the host of Inside Personal Growth. And joining me, where are you joining me from, Faisal?
Faisal Hoque
I'm in Connecticut. Home-based today.
Greg Voisen
Connecticut. And it's Faisal Hoque and his most recent book, for those of you can see it is Reinvent: Navigating Business Transformation in a Hyperdigital Era. Boy, is it hyperdigital these days. Like I was just saying to him before we came on with the advent of AI and how Google is now integrated Microsoft and all these companies have jumped on the AI bandwagon. There isn't anybody today that isn't talking about it. But that's only one small aspect of what we're going to talk about. What I am going to do is I'm going to give the listeners just a tad bit information about you Faisal. He's an accomplished entrepreneur, noted thought leader, technology innovator advisor to CEO, B ODS, and the US federal government and author of more than 20 have more than 25 years of cross industry success. He's the founder of Cydonia. Next chapter and other companies, they focus on embedding a sustainability and transformational changes. Furthermore, he serves as a strategic partner and innovation leader for C ACI, a $6.7 billion dollar company, whose mission in enterprises technologies and expertise play a vital role in the US national security. You can learn more about Feisal at fa i Sal, H. O qu e.com. There, you can learn more about his books, his insights, his ventures. And I want to mention, and I hope I'm right here. My son has chronic myelogenous leukemia, and you donate the proceeds of this book, to actually the research going on in that arena. Is that blood cancers?
Faisal Hoque
Yeah, it is because, like you, Greg, I have a son, my only son who's now 21, he was diagnosed with multiple myeloma, which is a type of blood cancer when he was 18. He's fine. He's doing okay. But it's a journey, as you know, so I decided to, you know, donate every thing that I can, in terms of the book proceeds to the blood cancer society. Well,
Greg Voisen
and I, I'm a big advocate of leukemia society, I was on team and training, I raised hundreds of 1000s of dollars, my son still has chronic myelogenous leukemia as an executive at Adobe. And he has lived with the disease now and a drug called sprycel. Prior to that, it was a different drug called Gleevec for the last, he's now going to be 42 years old. So he got it when he was 21. He got it at his senior year at UCLA, I never thought it would happen. But there, the survival rate now is just amazing. So kudos to you for doing that. Now, let's dig in, because my listeners may be want to hear that story. But they also want to hear the other story. You know, we just said you are on the inside personal growth in 2015, where we talked about your book survive to thrive. And then you were on the other one that you had called connected. So much happening in our world at an amazing rate since our discussion nine years ago, including the fact that you're now the author of 10 award winning books. So, you're a busy guy. Can you address some of the issues that you see are affecting businesses today, and how business owners can learn to make good, quote, better decisions about how to navigate their business with the advent of all the technology that's now available to them?
Faisal Hoque
Well, a couple of things. Technology is obviously a big thing. And you know, I really, if you just look at last it started. I mean, I was actually flipping through my very first book, which I wrote 25 years ago, arguing that our technology is going to have a huge impact our business models are crafted. I wrote that in 1999, when the internet was just on the cusp of taking off and, um, you know, 25 plus years later, you know, when I written when I wrote, you know, reinvent, I mean, we are in a completely different place from a technological point of view, obviously, because now we have AI and all sorts of other things IoT and blah, blah, blah. But more than that, I mean, you know, if you look at in a global climate, meaning geopolitical climate, if you look at a post pandemic, era next generation of workforce, people's, you know, lifestyle and longevity of life, all that has a huge impact of how we craft businesses and produce, you know, offering for our customer base and how we actually sustain and, and while not destroying our planet altogether, with these technologies that we're creating, right. So there's a whole bunch of complexity that exists now that didn't exist even like two years ago, right. So, so, so if you want to address that, you know, you have to elevate yourself at a higher product first than just how do I build a my next company or next product and services, because along with all that power comes a huge responsibility, you know, and so in reinvent, I explore that quite a bit. And I'm actually working on my next book that particularly focus on the opportunity and the governance challenges with AI, so we can dive into it.
Greg Voisen
Well, I think I mentioned that I watched the 60 minutes special about Nvidia in the in the conversation, and then the funding that occurred to this robotics company, it made a particular impact on me, because, you know, we all know robots are being here. But now we see BMW adapting these robots, robots at a very big level. And the guy said, millions of robots, I knew he might even said billions of robots will now be coming into our world, which is actually going to change the whole makeup. And so you mentioned that businesses will be compelled to change entire mindsets, attitudes, and assumptions about how they operate and grow. I just pointed a couple of things out AI and robots. You state, the book is geared to address this unprecedented journey that businesses will be faced with an adapt and transform. In your opinion, what are some of the issues that businesses need to address to make their transformation successful, and again, because we're human beings, and this neuro pathways system up here has to be reprogrammed. It's really about how we change the mindsets and attitudes and assumptions that is really going to make us successful or not successful. It Correct.
Faisal Hoque
Yeah, absolutely. Look, I mean, but obviously, the growth, you know, the rate of change is lot higher than it ever used to be right. so and so. But if you look at last 20 3040 5060 years, we've gone through many changes, and the jobs are no longer the same, you know, they are very different the way you do marketing, the way you the sales, that way you produce things, etc, etc. It's all change, right? But what have What if you think of in the context of AI and robot, what will happen and it actually it will not only impact, the obvious one that we think about it, okay? Robots are in the factory. So the manufacturing jobs are going to go away, because robots are gonna, you know, put together these, you know, the cars and like, you're talking about the BMW as an example, etcetera, etcetera. But you can look at it even knowledge workers, right? I mean, if you know, somebody who does the research, you can go to a variety of AI engines already, where you can say, Okay, well tell me what's going on in this field and give me with the citation error pulls it together, what that means is that if you have a research team, that used to be consist of 20 people, maybe now you'll have only two who ask the right question, right? So what happens to the other 18 people, right, so So, so that has a individual impact and that has organizational impact? Right? So the individual impact is that you will have to be a very deep domain expert who can ask the right question, not just do repeatable work that they are they are always doing the same thing over and over again. Right? So that's, that's responsible, individual being that highly curious, deep thinker and creative thinker, critical thinker that ask the right question, because you will have engineers to get you the answer, right. But they cannot produce the right answer. That lets you have to deeper question. And you actually have a firm grasp of the subject matter right? On origin at this one point, and then you can ask me on an organizational level, what that means is that you will be you know, it'll be highly competitive, to attract those, you know, the limited amount of critical thinkers and create Your fingers and motivate them to work or to rally behind your cause, or your mission or purpose, because there'll be highly sought after.
Greg Voisen
Well, critical thinking skills are something that we need to actually work on ourselves as individuals. I know when I started with working with Chet GBT, it really was more about how well I was able to craft the prompt based on what I wanted. And you know, there's full courses out there now where people are talking about how to craft these prompts and do this to get the machine to make trillions of calculations and find the data and then bring it back to you, I get that. But it's not just asking the question, it's then what are you going to do with the data once you get it? Because in the end, it's still just data? Right? It isn't? Really? That's your answer. So I think, you know, human beings are not going to go away, our ability to think critically about it. If anything, this is going to make us better thinkers, faster thinkers, more efficient thinkers, in my estimation. And you you mentioned that since the pandemic, that our that our customers are not only who they used to be. And you use an example of this online shopping, which, you know, look, we all know, Amazon, there's all places to go shopping today, online, how big is that market grown? And what are the expectations for the future, because I'm looking at brick and mortar. And I've, I've been seeing it a road now for the last four years, maybe six years, people with shopping centers, people with this and that and the other thing that are going to be converted to condominiums, or whatever is going to happen. But the reality is, where do you see this headed? And what is the level of sustainability of this kind of venture.
Faisal Hoque
So look, I mean, the retail shopping as we know, today, it just you go through a search engine, you browse through it, I mean, your online retail, and then you buy something. And now because you have the ability to instantly return something that you don't like, you can return it right, so that's fine. But the next phase of this growth is going to be augmented reality, whereby you can actually see things in a in a three dimensional way, like a holographic way you can stand in front of a camera, and you can pick his shirt, and it puts on your body to see how it looks like all these augmented reality AR. And decision support, in terms of retail decision is going to happen, it's already happening in manufacture. I mean, there are things that are already in the works, where you look at the pawn, and holographic image of a shoe, whatever is gonna come up, right, it's already happening. But that doesn't mean that gathering places are going to go away. I mean, we're still look if if anything dependent, we can talk taught us that we are still social beings, and we are the products are targeted us as the consumer, and we are social beings. So the social gathering place, it's still going to be there. But I think it's going to say take a whole new form, then as we know, today, today, it's a very, you know, it's one dimensional, it's, you know, it's not, it doesn't, it's not totally integrated, those all are going to change. So but that creates a whole set of new challenges, how the next generation, you know, retailer, or any of these commerce, that are targeted to the consumer, are going to craft and but I mean, you can also see that, I mean, even in my hometown, I mean, the mall is largely empty. There are, you know, office building that got converted into, you know, into into these apartment buildings, because people are working more from home. But we're also learning that working from home, my 100% of the time doesn't work because you still need that social gathering and interaction in order, collaborative etc.
Greg Voisen
Then said that loneliness is one of the biggest things, challenges with now I do see that and it is important to be with like minded people in groups and to share your ideas and do whatever. But I also think that the speed at which things have changed people look for finding ways for solids. And that brings me to this next question. You know, we all talked about this great recognized resignation during the times of COVID. And what do you see regarding the workforce transformation and why is the organization why will the organization needs to address this? If they're to attract and retain high quality, as you just said, critical thinking type individuals because what I see in my own little world and I live in a city in North San Diego County called Encinitas. We're about 4 million people in San Diego County. I've noticed since the pandemic that the like you just said, less people in the shopping centers, less people on the freeways, more people working from home, more people buying online, more Amazon trucks running around the streets. You know, you could line it all up and just look, look, look, look, look, look in DoorDash and getting things delivered. And all these other kinds of things that have evolved, these businesses of all evolve many of them, since this, this pandemic, right? And many of them are thriving like crazy. So how do I in an organization, try and find and attract these kinds of employees? And I know some of the corporations who said, No, you've got to come as my son works for Adobe, you got to be in there two days a week. Or if you're at Salesforce, now, I think it's two days a week, because all of them have kind of changed a little bit. But do you ever see them going back to the normal? Nine to five? I don't think so. Not gonna happen? No,
Faisal Hoque
no, look, it's a question of balance, right? I mean, it's all look, I mean, we used to be 100 personnel at the office, then in during the pandemic, we weren't 100 personnel at home, right. So and, and now, it's kind of, we're trying out this new hybrid model, whereby, sometimes with the Office sometimes that, you know, at home, you know, I have a lot of customers all over the globe, I mean, when I travel, I'm now seeing planes are full, again, people are traveling, you know, so I don't ever see, going back to, you know, like pandemic, where everybody's working from home 100% and 100% of the time, I also don't see that people are are, you know, they're just, you know, one person at the office, and not, doesn't have the flexibility. What is true is that, you know, people does need the freedom, they do need the flexibility. And it, it, it actually enables you to be more creative, and be, you know, under creativity comes from not a lot of intangible things, being able to take care of your family and take care of your health, that actually enhances your creativity, right. But you know, so there's a balance. So how we do this, and I think we're gonna get to a next level of normalization, where we'll fit into this next phase where it will be normal to work maybe two days, a dark days, or three days in the office, a quarterly meeting where people comes together, you know, the service providers, or, you know, the vendors goes in the customer side and spends a lot of time that comes back to their home base, will reach to that next level of normalization, or we'll stop talking about it a hybrid model, it's all or nothing, etc, etc. Because I don't think we'll ever go back to how it was command control, you know, five days a week, you know, like the two weeks of vacation. We were beyond that, right? Leadership and influence and inspiration. And,
Greg Voisen
and just pardon me, Feisal, but if you look at our gross national product, and our productivity levels, and everything that's going on inside these companies, the actual metrics indicate that there wasn't a reduction in this arena, that actually you're now seeing more and more people that are wealthy as a result of the stock market, that are the companies are doing better, they're performing better. And it's a result of them willing to shift the way in which they operated their businesses and break out of those old Piscean models. I'm going to call them Piscean models, because they were they were pretty command and control. And so with that being said, you know, you your company deals with cybersecurity or the lack thereof, and the affected issues with that. And we all hear it all the time about what's going on and to protect yourselves. What's the cost to our businesses associated with breaches, insecurity because you advise the government as well? And how can businesses make themselves less vulnerable? Because the more we use technology, the more we potentially have these threats of cybersecurity from outside countries from people inside our country, whatever it might be. So what would you say people need to be thinking about?
Faisal Hoque
Oh, come in. You know, cybersecurity is one of the many risk among a lot of different things. So whenever you we are investing in this new set of technologies The and if you look at, especially mid to large size organization where there's a lot of technology, cyber security is a critical factor. Security is a critical factor in general, how you make those decisions in terms of what you are, you know, implementing how you're auditing, how you're putting together your barriers, how you're putting together, your, you know, daily audit, etc, etc, if you don't have that part and parcel of your practice, you aren't going to be, you know, in serious trouble, right? So it's like, you know, it's like, if you don't, you know, I mean, because your data can be stolen, your customer data can be stolen, your your critical information can be stolen at any given time, right? Because the more connected you are more exposed you are, so you have to protect yourself. And every decision you make in terms of new technology, you know, risk factor from security is a critical factor. And if we can probably spend like, next two days, just talk about the element of physical security your life to deal with it.
Greg Voisen
I think you're really just saying to the listeners, you know, check your systems, make sure that you have a level or at least a checklist around the security for your operation, no matter what size your business, I think it's an important element. And, and again, they're companies that advise people on what to do and how to do this. And you should get in touch with that. I think that's important. Now you and I started off this quest here when we're talking about Greg just
Faisal Hoque
want one other point on that, right. So often in that what a lot of companies don't do, they invest in technology, but they don't invest in sustainment digital security is part of your sustainment model, right meaning that the constant up keeping and revisiting and that is part of your sustainment. So, if you are when you are making a new technology investment, if you don't consider the sustainable investment, then you're not doing a service to yourself. Sorry,
Greg Voisen
I think it's important point you make I mean, it looks like changing the oil in your car. If you're not driving an electric car, you want to make sure you're maintaining it and an even if you're driving an electric car, you better be maintaining it as well. Again, this is the book reinvent with Feisal Hoke, we're going to ask this question. Because we started or pre the show, we started talking about AI. And we've actually delved in it a little bit. But you stated in the book that opting for digitization, without the added impact of complementary technology is akin to getting electricity in the early 20th century, but choosing to never plug it in. In your expert opinion. How will artificial intelligence affect many of the associated elements of doing business? As we know it? Because it's one thing to say, Well, yeah, I can go on and get Gemini I can go on and get chat, GBT, I can go on and get all these places now to do tasks that I don't need to do anymore. If a machine is going to do it for me, but I have to think it through to the next level, what are these alternative or complementary technologies that you're speaking about here in the book?
Faisal Hoque
Look, so So what happens is that, you know, it depends on the task. Now, there are different types of, you know, I mean, if you look at AI, it's at the very initial stages, we're talking really about generative API, which means that even model, you can fit the model with a lot of knowledge. And as a result, the model being gives you back a pattern, right? So that means if you say, Okay, I want to know about XYZ topic, you go to a particular entity, that x that that focus on that particular knowledge base, and it gives you that right, so that, so it's getting more and more granular. So you will have an engine that maybe do medical research, you may have an engine that does automated image generation, etc. So it's a nascent stage of AI. As time goes by, it's gonna get more and more advanced, where it can develop certain level of critical thinking, but to the skip to the same level of human level of critical thinking, we're probably 10 years 1520 30 years behind that, right. So how do you take advantage of these generative AI models? It depends on what you do, what's the past you're trying to accomplish? So I mean, chat. GPT is a very generic form of AI, or you can go and ask anything and everything. And so what do you get for this all back? It's also very generic, and half the time it's meaningless, right? It sounds good, but it's many years, right? So so it really depends on what you're trying to do. So you have to really start with what is it that you want to do and what is it that you want to automate or augments It will be helpful for you, and then look for that particular tool. So let's take a very simple example, if you send out, I have a large volume of, of, you know, writing that I have, and I want to convert them into PowerPoint presentation, because I do a lot of presentation, as a teacher as the presenter, whatever the case may be, then you look for the correct type of tool. So you're seeing this emergence of very specific task oriented tool, the trick is knowing what would be helpful for the things you do, and then go get that tool, because what will happen with that is that it will allow you to do it faster. But even that example I just gave you, I tried out, I mean, just my personal example, I tried out about five different tools, that does expect more than just said, I a lot of writing that I've done, or to convert them into a slide, let's see what they cover half of the time, they've come up with stuff that are absolutely useless, they submit the content, the content is bastardize, etc, etc. So you still have to go and do the work. But what will happen, you know, fast forward, two years from now, it will get better, and it will generate the right image. And it will summarize your work much better than it was, you know, that used to be the one example.
Greg Voisen
Not pointing to any examples. But I have tried this beautiful AI, which is one that makes PowerPoint presentations. And I agree with you. It's relatively rudimentary, at its current stages right now. But as time goes on, just like you said, these are going to get smarter and better. And my son, who's it, Adobe turned me on to stuff Adobe's done with the image creation. Yeah, granted, some rudimentary right now. But if you do put in a good prompt, you can come up with some pretty damn good images, even for that to like, stick into your PowerPoint. Right? So I absolutely
Faisal Hoque
100% I mean, you know, same with with like, I use a tool called perplexity.ai. It's a paid tool, it's focused on doing a better search, but enabled, it allows it, it allows me to choose different models, whether it's GPT, three GPT, for whatever, you know, and what it does is it puts the citation. So for either, you know, like, sometimes I forgot what I said 10 years ago. So I will go in there. And what did I say about this? Pull me up from this particular set of podcast I talked about and it will summarize and give you my, give me the citation, which is helpful, right? So imagine if you can do that today, what will happen two or three years from now, right, you will get to a totally different level, that will be much more helpful than
Greg Voisen
Well, I think I think the complementary technologies you're talking about are more specialized. And they're out there, and they're coming. There's more all the time. And I think people just pay attention, because it helps to refine the feedback that you're getting out of the AI. Now you address a roster of common digital transformation roadblocks in the book, can you outline for the listeners, with what those roadblocks are, and how we best buy in and commit from a management standpoint to accomplish some level of transformation, even though these roadblocks are in our could be in our way?
Faisal Hoque
I'll just mentioned three I mean, I think overall, we identified about like 12 to 15 of them. But let's let's take three critical one. One is that a clarity of vision by leadership often enough, there is no clear idea of what transformation means. Transformation is not just about technology, it's about your business model. It's about your culture, how you do things, etc, etc. Right? So the clarity of vision by the leadership is a critical one. Second is that clarity, you know, the communication of that clarity and having tangible things that you can point to that the team as a whole needs to produce and more importantly, why they need to produce is how you get them on board behind your your idea, right? Often enough, leadership cannot articulate that. And as a result, the workforce can buy into it, right. So let's say we're going to buy this new system, and we're going to replace the old system, but he's not really explaining why you're doing it, how it benefits them, and how it's going to benefit the overall organization at a level that that's understandable by somebody's like three levels down, who's doing a data entry, another example. Right? So that clarity and that translating that clarity into why and how and how it impacts them is a critical factor. And number three is that don't look at as managing the implementation of technology as, as the critical factor of transformation. Yes, it is a factor. But managing the process and managing the communication, and managing the value that you're going to generate out of it is even more important than actually managing the technology. Right? And the last one, is that the fact that you have to go where the money is meaning, what is the biggest value from a financial point of view, that you're going to gain, short term and long term from the investment, and managing the risk around it is another critical factor, right. So these are like 234, critical factors that we talked about. And it's all related to, by the way, not necessarily technology, it's about leadership, and management, and how you drive innovation and the culture, as much as utilizing what technology that you want to use. Well, I
Greg Voisen
know reinvent focuses on that. And you do focus on moving from management toward leadership. And you outline and you this isn't the first book you put it in. But your five step lifts process, and I think it's valuable for people to understand because this lifts process, it's worth the purchase of the book just for that. And you can actually go back in to some other some of your other books and lifts is in there. Again, it's like a recurring theme. So it must be important enough for you to stick it in more than one book, tell the listeners what the lifts is, and why it would move people out of just managing and into one a leadership and move the company forward.
Faisal Hoque
Lifted either from a poor five steps, right, so and at a fundamental level, you know, the leaders who does well start with and not just dampen learning, but creating a learning organization, if you don't know what's happening outside? And if you don't understand what are the deficiencies that you're creating inside. And where are your gaps are, this is the inner and outer learning, that starts everything. So it has to start with a learning culture, opportunity, as well as your gaps and how you connect your opportunity with the gap. So that's one second thing is investigating the opportunities, you know, where, where, where and how the art of possibilities that you want to take your organization to. Third is that you have to be able to formulate what's happening in terms of that vision, and how that vision impacts your organization and the people and making it happen. Right. So that's, so if you're looking at live learning, investigating, formulating. And then the third thing is that, you know, the fourth thing is that you have to be able to, you know, the case form that that ideation to value creation, right. And the last thing is that you have to be able to sustain that model over and over again. So this learning, investigating, formulating and transforming and sustaining is essentially the five step model. And obviously, in the book, we'll go into like minutiae detail, what it means for each one of those areas, and do it in a repeatable manner. But that has to become the cultural DNA, if it's not part of your culture, because transformation is not a one time thing. It's a journey, you start if you keep repeating doing it, because as we're talking about the same conversation I had 25 years ago, and we're talking about the fundamental remains the same, but technology is completely different.
Greg Voisen
I appreciate you going through that. And I think there's two of those up that acronym lifts, L is learning in essence, sustainability, I would take the first and the last one. And the reality is if you if you encourage a learning organization, if you encourage what I'm going to call curiosity, if you encourage this innovation with inside of it, and you find a way to sustain this key, that's a key one, your last one within the organization, you will have success. And I get that you have three other letters there. But the reality the first one and the last one, to me, probably the most important once you know, in the chapter of the future organization used to speak about sustainability of the in a transforming analyzation How do leaders sustain transformation so that it's always at the leading it's the leading initiative with inside the organization is one thing to make a change. It's another thing to actually sustain that
Faisal Hoque
100% You know, look, often enough, you will see the transformation is very personality driven. A leader comes in a charismatic leader infuses vision and it it, it transform to the next level, then it takes a die, right? The reason it takes a die, because you haven't put together the system that enables others to do the same thing, as the leader, charismatic leader does, did, right. So that system meaning the way you think the way you learn the way you do the way you reinvigorate new technology, it has to become part of the cultural norm. So often enough, you know, when I go to this is very much applicable in especially in a large organization, in a large organization, you know, this this all, saying that leaders are the people who create other leaders, I actually said the leader are the, the new generation leaders create systems and processes, so that the creation of new leaders never ends, right. It's not a one to one thing is the culture of long term. Sustainability comes from creating that systemic thinking and establishing the process that allows the organization to learn, and then ultimately sustain, regardless of whoever the leader is.
Greg Voisen
In it, you know, you're emphasizing important points, that I think, look, if anybody picks up this book, and just takes pieces out of from the lifts process, they're going to actually be able to put a process in their business that literally could help the transformation at business quicker, faster, more efficiently, and most importantly, developing the right leaders to do it, right, finding who they are the ones that are jazzed about it, and really want to take on the initiatives and really are driven around, you know, I don't want to call it transferring, transforming the, the business and I would say you said it earlier, the culture because the culture is so so important. And that means it's the people, you know, you're going to hire a players, not C players, you're going to try and retain those eight players to stay on and get on with the vision, the leader is going to hold that vision and it's going to create great transformation. And you're going to do good for the world. Now, in summing up here. You know, the books, the study of transformation, that's what you're all about almost every element of the business. If you were to leave these listeners today, with some sage advice from Feisal hoch to them on reinventing their business to approach the organization in a way to transform it, what would you inform them of both the good and the challenging? What are they going to be faced with? What would you tell them?
Faisal Hoque
So first thing I would say that become a conscious mindful leader, because be conscious of what's going on within yourself. So that the way you articulate your vision, and the way you communicate and rally your team behind candles in a in an impactful and positive way. And and that's and that's also allows you to understand what's going on outside of the organization, this consciousness of what's going on outside, and what's inside and connecting the dots is what leadership is all about. So that's, that's, that's the first number one criteria of, of transforming anything, that's one of the challenges that often enough, we get very focused on tactical crises of the day, and forget the long term, you know, things that needs to get done in front in order for the organization to survive. So as a leader, it's your job to manage the daily killers, while having a steadfast look on what's going to be important 369 12 months from now. And if you can focus on that, then the euro crisis manager, not a transformative leader, right. So don't be a crisis manager only be a transformative leader. So those are the two things that will leak organism, anybody?
Greg Voisen
Well, I live by listeners with this. I remember an interview I did with Rita McGrath around her book seeing around corners. And I think that what you really have to do is you have to have the ability to put the dots together. And you can't put the dots together. As Steve Jobs said, looking backwards. You can only put the dots together going forward. That was in his famous speech that he did at Stanford. And I think Rita emphasizes that as well. And to be a really good leader. You need to be looking into the future in the front mirror, not the rearview mirror and not spending all your time. And with that data can be then derived to make decisions about what's moving forward for the next 912 1618 months to make you an effective leader. And that's what I would say, because I think that it's valuable, go out and get a copy of this book, reinvent by Faisal Hoch, we're gonna put a link to his website as well. We're gonna put a link to the book and you can get it on Amazon. And Feisal, thanks for making this donation to whether it's leukemia society or wherever you're giving the money from the proceeds of the book, I really, sincerely thank you for doing that. And for my listeners, you know, I have a nonprofit compassionate communications Foundation. We support through that the people, refugees from Ukraine, we buy bicycles for the kids that are being displaced from their homes. And we also do that here in the States. I actually work on the streets with the homeless. So I would encourage you to support me in that endeavor. And we want to thank everybody for listening and inside personal growth. And by so thanks so much for your wisdom and support today. It was really great having you back on again. Let's not wait another nine years in between.
Faisal Hoque
Thank you for having me. It's such an honor and pleasure to be on your show.
Greg Voisen
Right? And Namaste to you my friend. Thanks so much.
Faisal Hoque
Thank you.
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Inside Personal Growth with Greg Voisen · Podcast 1115: The Way Home with Ben KattJoining us this episode is mindfulness and meditation guru, Ben Katt featuring his inspiring book The Way Home: Discovering the Hero’s Journey to Wholeness at Midlife.
Ben has been helping people experience deep transformation and access lives of greater joy, compassion, and purpose for the past twenty years. He is a certified advanced meditation teacher of the 1 Giant Mind technique, holds a Master of Divinity degree, and was an ordained minister for over a decade. He teaches meditation in prisons and serves as a hospice chaplain.
Previously, he led The On Being Project’s work in supporting religious and spiritual leaders in the work of social healing. Ben is a perpetual student of religious, spiritual, and cultural wisdom, and an expert at adapting ancient personal development practices for modern contexts in order to help people wake up to who they are and why they are here.
Ben believes that his purpose in life is to help you live yours. He also writes regularly about identity, purpose, creativity, and belonging in his weekly STILL newsletter. An on February 2024, he published his first book The Way Home: Discovering the Hero’s Journey to Wholeness at Midlife which is a guidebook and memoir about the inner journey we all must embark on in order to clarify our purposes and live our fullest lives. The Way Home is an inspiring book that aims to equip you to step beyond the life you’ve outgrown… and into the wholehearted life you’re meant to live!
You may know more about Ben and his works by visiting his website.
Thanks and happy listening!
You may also refer to the transcripts below for the full transciption (not edited) of the interview.
Interview Transcipt -Not EditedEmailDownloadNew TabGreg Voisen
Welcome back to Inside Personal Growth. Joining us from Wisconsin on the other end of the line, I see he's taking a deep breath, that's because he's a mindfulness and meditation guru. We've got Ben Katt on the phone, and online on video on Zoom. Talking with us today about his new book, The Way Home: Discovering the Hero's Journey to Wholeness at Midlife. Ben, how are you today?
Ben Katt
I'm great, Greg, thanks for having me. We have a sunny day in Wisconsin, it's starting to warm up. I know you're a little you're always ahead of us, because you live, you know, out west in California. But yeah, we're welcoming the beautiful weather right now.
Greg Voisen
Well, this is a brand-new St. Martin's essentials book, and I just wanna let my listeners know, seriously, go out and get a copy of this, this can be life changing for you. He came to me as a contact through Chip Conley. And for those of you know, we recently did an interview with Chip about his book on midlife and his foundation that he has, he has one in Mexico. And I think the other one is in Santa Fe, New Mexico, where he's doing this work. And he knows Ben. And really, the two of them work together. So, I want to say congrats, my friend on your new book. First off, let me let the listeners know a bit about you. He's been helping period, people experience deep transformation and access lives of greater joy, compassion and purpose for the past 20 years. His first book, this is it. The way home that just came out in February is a guidebook and memoir about the inner journey we all must embark on in order to live our fullest life. He writes regularly about identity, purpose, creativity, and belonging in his still newsletter on sub stack. Go check that out, we're gonna give you a link. It's been Benjamin, I'm sorry, benjaminkatt.com. That's where you're gonna want to go. He is a certified advanced meditation teacher with the one giant mind and holds a Master of Divinity degree and was an ordained minister for over a decade previously led the on being projects work in supporting religious and spiritual leaders in the work of social healing. He's a perpetual student of religious, spiritual and cultural wisdom, and an expert on adapting ancient personal development practices for modern contexts in order to help people wake up to who they are, and why they're here. He lives in, as we said, Milwaukee, Wisconsin with his three children, the bunny and his wife, and they like to actually run the trails. They do karaoke and volunteer work for hospice. Well, that's a great bio, it just kind of lets people know who you are, and why you're here. Because, look, your purpose in life is a big thing for you. And I know you're now on embarking on working with prisons and the prisoners. You just mentioned that to me last time. And congrats for that. Because that is can be challenging work. But you open this book with this poignant phrase, wife seems to be moving along just fine when all of a sudden, you receive a summons to another way. And I think you have to be awake to realize that the summons was there. You have to be aware that the summons was there, whether it's a sign or assemble or whatever it is that you do, can you share a personal moment that signified this call to adventure for you?
Ben Katt
Yeah, for sure. So I was living in Seattle at the time where I lived actually for 14 years all my kids were born there. And I one morning I was out for a run in the rain ran across around this little lake called greenlink If anyone's familiar with the area, and I was charging back up the hill towards My House had about 10 blocks to go usually I'd turn the corner at Sprint home and you know, finish with this sort of intense that workout and get going about my day and all the important things I had to do. But there's one particular day I got to the top of the hill and I just stopped dead in my tracks and pulled my earbuds out and it's this voice welled up inside me and the voice said if you don't have your heart, you have nothing if you don't have your heart you have nothing and you know I always like to say like you'll we can we can debate about what's that God or an inner voice or something weird I hit the night before but in reality is like I knew right away that this was a wake up call. So to your point. Yes, you need to be aware I think even just being a little bit aware, then you'll notice, right? So it really, and the more you try to pay attention, the more likely to you're going to hear this invitation or call to adventure. But for me, initially, that meant, you know, I was aware that I was burned out. But as I started to peel back the layers, I realized that really, this was an invitation to move on from my old operating patterns, which was this obsession with achievement, and, you know, perfectionism and trying to please other people, I had started 3d, scrappy, nonprofit org, and my wife and I had three kids like all in very short time, and she was in grad school. So it's a really big season of life, and all on the surface was very good. But as that day revealed, to me, it got my attention was saying, like, hey, you know, you're, you're disconnected from that deeper, truer part of yourself.
Greg Voisen
Well, there is, you know, in this western world, versus the Eastern philosophies and traditions where a lot of meditation practices come from this drive for achievement. And I remember interviewing, not that long ago, Marshall Goldsmith, and he is the coach to some of the highest achievers in the world. And he said, it didn't seem to matter to them when it never turned off. You know, when is enough, when you know, I've built three $2 billion businesses, I have houses all over the country, I've got whatever it might mountain monies, Buccos money in my bank account, it never conceived of them to say, Hey, maybe I could slow down and I could do something differently, you know. And he got them to look at that way. And in your journey, you talk about befriending the darkness as a crucial phase of this. I just recently got a text from a friend. And this is very appropriate, somebody that was doing nonprofit work. And I was working with him. And he went back to Ohio to see his mom and his sister. And this guy was like giving clothes to the homeless out of the back of his truck, and I would bring the sleeping bags or whatever. And he says, I have some bad news, Ken died, Ken died. Ken was that old? Now he went home, he turned his car on in his mom's garage, and he fixated himself. Now you would never see this endless guy. Because he was doing all this nonprofit work. You seem very jovial. And underneath that the darkness, you know, the darkness of this, how did you facing the darkness, change your understanding of personal and collective grief? Because Ken must know going through a lot of grief.
Ben Katt
Yeah, you know, I want to pick up on something there that I think is important to accent. My discovery what you know, I sort of thought that because I was in quote unquote, the helping professions. So as a former pastor, I ran a couple of other nonprofits that were helping people dealing with homelessness, mental illness, were caught up in the sex trade, we're dealing with addiction, all those things. So it's really good, quote, unquote, virtuous work. And the thing I had fooled myself into thinking was that I was sort of immune or outside of our culture's game of, you know, doing better, more faster, stronger, you know, the achievement orientation. But the thing was, I was playing that same game, I was just doing it in my own way, striving. And so that's really something, this isn't a statement about Ken's situation. But it's very common for those of us who are in the helping professions to be striving to be working out of some sense of self deficiency, or loss, or lack of belonging, or, you know, sort of inner groundedness. And that was the case for me. And so, um, you know, or this, this desire to be the savior of everyone else, all these things, right? Or it's all these people
Greg Voisen
Right now, that were leads, we always wonder, well, why are people like because I have my own nonprofit, and I go out and help the homeless. And it's like, so why where did this big thing come in, in my personality that I needed to please people, there are so many people that are so hard and gruff, and I call them reds, their personalities are reds, but mine certainly is not that. And I my own individual, and God speaks to me in different ways. And I think we all express ourselves that way. But I think in understanding our own darkness in our own grief along this journey, is really interesting one, and you have this mythical pattern of living, balling rising is the central narrative to your book. How do you see that this pattern plays out in everyday life for people who aren't necessarily on like, what you call here, this wilderness quest, right? Because it's one thing to go out and, you know, hike and be involved and all that but they're not in this wilderness quest. Yeah,
Ben Katt
you know, you're laughing as you're probably thinking of some of the stories in the book. So I have these encounters with the natural world which were really powerful. And really the big thread in the back half of the book is this wilderness quest or which was modeled after the indigenous practice of a vision quest that included a four day solo fasting experience. But I talked about in the book as a capstone experience to the journey I was already on. And so I'll just say what that means to me for a second one was as like a capstone, you know, like actually the, the, to the megalithic tomb like this thing that was marking my death to a previous version of myself. But the other meaning of Capstone had to do with it was as if I had, I was graduating or completing a course, which then begins again, but I was finishing this life journey course that I was on this quest. So the reason I bring that up is to say, you don't have to go out into the wild to, quote unquote, go find yourself or go on this hero's journey to wholeness. You don't have to Eat, Pray, Love your way around the world. As I think culturally, we love to talk about that, like, you got to go leave everything. For me, the experience was, and this is really a big part of who I'm writing to. It's everyday people who have, again, on the surface of their life so much just it looks great, and they're happy and smiling in their annual holiday card. And work is relatively fulfilling. And you know, they're standing in silence with their kids soccer games, like all these things. That is to say that you just is like, how do you pay attention to the fact that maybe you are being asked to leave this situation, which you're just kind of maintaining, you've outgrown it, it's expired, there's some part of yourself that is not allowed to come forth, as long as you are staying in that, that sort of season or state of your life. So paying attention to the messages that come your way, the invitations, and they do always come to leave the familiar. And then guess what happens not that you find yourself immediately you end up wandering in the wild, or befriending the darkness you you go through that dark night of the soul, it's the falling into the unknown. And it's on the other side of all that which can be a long, and is a long, grueling experience is that rising to wholeness, but for me, I say it's all about finding those small spaces in your life beginning small, but making space to listen to your life practices like journaling, yoga, walking in nature, talking to a spiritual director, or trusted friend, there's a whole host of things that can help us in the middle of our quote, unquote, ordinary lives. Go on what really is this epic inner journey, you don't have to go far, you don't have to go hiking deep into the desert or into the jungle or anything like that?
Greg Voisen
Well, one of the things that I'm very well aware of that are the listeners out there hearing what you just said, appreciate about what you said, on the flip side of the coin is the fear to actually take the step. And the main thing that holds everybody back be is, oh, I've got to change something. And something drastically is going to change. And I'm afraid I might lose something in the process of changing something. And it's something whether I created it, whether it's a marriage, or it's a business, or it's a what a something, right. It's like, okay, I birthed this thing. I've been living this thing. And now I'm being asked or called to give it up. Now, Joseph Campbell's work and the hero's journey is really interesting when you look at it, and the person leaves home base and goes around in the stories that have been told over and over again, through the Disney characters, about the hero's journey, because we all we all understand that. But in the end, there are players out there that we need to realize they're going to help us. And I think that's the thing, this isn't about going alone. And you know, you tell this story in the book about the saguaro cactus in the Arizona desert was both surreal and deeply moving. Could you encounter while this wasn't a person, but can you elaborate on this encounter, and out influence your perspective on the interconnectedness of all beings? Because, you know, one of the things on a spiritual journey is this epiphany, you have at some point, like you're one with all you know, you're not separate from the plant, the deer, the flower, the stream, the whatever, and I think many people go through life Ben. So you had this moving experience with this saguaro cactus in the Arizona desert, it was both surreal and deeply moving. Could you speak with our listeners about how this encounter influenced your perspective on this interconnectedness of all beings? Because many of us have never had that fight and level of experience where we feel interconnected with the trees and the birds and the stream and whatever. But you did have it? Yeah.
Ben Katt
So one of the things that I think it's important for everyone to know is that and Joseph Campbell hits on this when he talks about the hero's journey is that as soon as you say yes, as soon as you answer the call, as you, you take that first step, what inevitably happens is that help will arrive. And so it might, from your current vantage point be like, Well, where am I going to get help? Like, how am I going to know what to do next? The thing is, and this is a quote, I believe, from frozen to speaking of Disney. It's just it's like, do the next right thing. Take the next right step. Like that's what you need to do. And help will be there to company whether it's a spiritual director, or Yes, I as I talked about, I think the wild will come and meet you whether it's in your dreams or actually in nature. And for me, one of the most transformative experiences was this encounter with a Samar Oh, cactus. And I won't get into the whole story, but essentially, let's just say it invited me into this conversation and wanted to share it story with me. And this was like on this unremarkable hill in the middle of
Greg Voisen
nowhere, and I you you weren't doing drugs either.
Ben Katt
No, no, no, no psychedelics involved at all? Yes, that's a great question. I always kind of want to clarify that so nothing about it. Definitely. There's a to speak about kind of engaging nature that way. It's important to to take on sort of playful myths and imagination, meaning and openness. Let aside your rigid kind of ideas on how things do or don't work Am I playfully like to say and hopefully it doesn't offend people from certain religious traditions of which, by the way, as a former ordained minister, but I'm like, Look, there's a story of Moses encountering God in a burning bush. So like, what's too different than, than me kind of having this conversation with a cactus? Why can't we we also see that these mystical experiences are also for us today. So but anyway, what ends up showing me is how it's been, it was literally stabbed, there was a stake through it, and it's probably 100 year old cactus judging by the size. And then it's like telling me to keep looking and actually have these right over my shoulder. I'm sitting in my office here, but having these bullet shells, they directed me to four different bullet shells, I realize this thing has been shot like a ton of times, by different, you know, different get a different caliber bullets, different guns. And I'm thinking, yes, there's this thing called Cactus plugging it is the practice of Ghana, going out in the desert, and maybe drinking beers on like shooting cacti. But this heaviness hit me in this moment. Because here I was, in this dark season on my life, this season of confusion, loss, and this stranger than from myself trying to find my way home, and dealing with all my own grief about my own story. And is in that moment, I'm seeing that, you know, I'll say the grief of this, this cactus. And I felt like I was suddenly swept up into the grief of that cactus, on whom we're on which a whole host of individuals who were dealing with some level of pain or anger, even if it was, quote, unquote, in the name of recreation, we're taking out there on hostility and pain on this cactus. And so it was as if I was, you know, united with the pain and the grief of the universe, that the Christian tradition as in this letter Romans written by Paul, it says something like, the entire creation groans, like with the birthing pains, like it's groaning and eager expectation for something new something whole, something, you know, for the way of love to, to rule on I think that's really what I felt in that moment, I realized, well, my whole journey, you know, I It wasn't just about me, working on my own stuff. And finding myself, in fact, to find my way back home to myself, was to find my fundamental belonging to everyone and everything.
Greg Voisen
Well, like you, you point out an important element, anybody who is aware at all, here's Mother Earth crying out, because of what's going on in our environment with the melting ice caps and the fires and just the raging tornadoes we're having now, you know, just all of this stuff seems to have been very fighted. And very accelerated as a result of, I think, a consciousness level, which we've attained as a world, which is truly vibrating into the core essence of everything around our globe right now. Now, this is a great time for a change. And it's also a time for letting go. And letting go is something that features prominently in your work. And I know many people have talked about this, oh, well just let go of it. You know, and it's not that easy for people to do. But how would you advise somebody who's struggling to release their grip on some outdated version of their life? Let go and be born new again. I don't want people who are, you know, Jewish, or Muslim or whatever, listen to this podcast think, well, I'm this Christian guy, because I'm not I was born into a Jewish family. And I'm a member of self realization fellowship. Parma, Honza Yogananda. So the reality is, is people know that what I'm saying is being born new again, as a new version of yourself. Yeah, right. Yep. You good in the world, versus doing more harm in the world. I mean, the Dalai Lama says the only way we're going to solve this problem is through more compassion, compassion and understanding of everybody and ourselves. Yet
Ben Katt
the rebirth the individual rebirth of the rebirth of all things like you're saying, it doesn't belong to one particular tradition. It's not about just like a certain belief set or anything, it's about awakening to your who you really are, to your full potential to who we really are, and who and why we're here. And, you know, letting go is the is perhaps the most critical practice in order for that, you know, rebirth to happen for that newness to emerge. The difficult thing is when there's something we need to let go of, and now anyone here who's listening, watching can can realize this, like we don't always know what it is. Right? It takes some time, we might not realize that something is outdated that something's expired. You know, we haven't noticed it yet. Part of that is because we're sort of suppressing our awareness. We're not making space we're getting we're, we're like, just going through the motions of life, right? We're not slowing down to here. But what I, what I want to say is, there's kind of a hard answer to that. And then there's the soft one the heart is, look, the longer you hold on and refuse to let go, the harder it's going to get. And I think that's one of the difficult things for us to understand as human beings collectively, right now is we are stubbornly resisting. All the letting go that like the ways that we need to, you know, we need to change our ways, especially thinking of climate and things like that, we're stubbornly refusing to make the changes at the pace that we probably should be. And so what's going to happen is, there's going to be an accelerating realization of like, oh, no, and we're gonna get really desperate, and then the letting go is gonna happen, and some new creativity and possibilities are gonna come out of it, but there'll be a lot of suffering, like, there's be suffering and pain and difficulty. And that's reality for for individuals to, you want to hold on to something or to keep trying to make it work. Keep going back to that one way, eventually, the universe is getting, or God's gonna get your attention. And your because because it's things expired, you know, say, say it's, let's treat it like not this is a poor example, because we're just talking about the environment, but you need an oil change in your car, you continue to refuse the basic maintenance of something you you don't, you know, you keep stubbornly continuing with your own pattern, well, that thing's gonna break down. So the same is true for your expired version of your life. Now, the softer side of it. And this is really important. This is like the, the former the inner pastor and me it is to say, look like be patient with yourself. Be patient, like the fact that you're gonna have a subtle awareness that there's something you need to let go of, that's huge. So just welcome that, celebrate that Be patient. Now, also be curious, lean into it, reflect on it, maybe there's trusted people, you can start to talk about it, right? So where can you find help, so that you have others holding up a mirror to yourself, so you can see the implications of holding on to this particular way, versus the possibilities that might come when you let go. So there's, there's multiple ways to think about letting go, I don't think it's one size fits all. I think initially, we should definitely begin with the the, I do think there's that sort of more, more inviting posture.
Greg Voisen
So that sometimes we need help along the way, and you speak about having a spiritual friend. Now I'm not certain whether or not the friends by not binds us or we find the friend. How does one find such a companion? And what role does this kind of play in our quest for fullness? What I say spiritual friend, you're saying you've had lots of encounters and you write throughout the book with counters with animals like the Jaguar and your dreams and things like that. And I think for everybody, this is different. So we want to do is pull apply what might be going on to those that are listening around? Who is this spiritual friend that you can call into your life? To help you on your quest for wholeness? And how does that play out? How did that play out for you?
Ben Katt
Yeah, you know, it because of the hero's journey is so often misconstrued. Or maybe it's in the Hollywood versions of it, right? That it's this like, independent, self sufficient quest that you need to go on. It's all about like, yeah, this rugged individualism, it is really important always to name that even the pattern as Campbell sees it across myths and religious stories and cultural traditions, is always one in which there's help, right? There's the wise sage or the companion, the friend, the Yoda, the Gandalf these kinds of characters that help us along the way. And so for me, I really had sort of multiple that emerge at a similar time one would have been it was rekindling a dear friendship I had from college many years earlier, my friend Nico, who I talked about a lot in the book because he's, he's on some of my adventures and was in a parallel season of his own life, but some work stuff had brought us together, so I had someone a soul friend. I love that term coming from the Celtic idea of Ankara, or Kalyana Mitra, which is the Buddhist idea, a good kindness. But here's someone I could talk about anything if I could be raw and real. I didn't have to, you know, package everything nicely and say that I had everything together. And so now the great thing about Nico's like there are so many dimensions to our relationship. But I do like to say that a soul friend of this kind of companion is probably going to be different. It could be the same person was probably a bit different than like golf buddy or biking buddy or drinking buddy. I'm sort of speaking specifically prior to like men and midlife. Then hopefully you can do some of the other things have those meaningful activities, but there's going to be an increase depth to it. And when I when I think is. So the other ones by the way, I got a spiritual director that could say more about that. And then also just the wisdom through books, podcasts, I think your podcast, I've no doubt that it actually serves as an important help or guiding voice, or even sulfur and a companion to people who are in the middle of really difficult situation. So grateful for what you do. But I had, yeah, I mean, I mean, I had podcasts, right, that the kind of thing that that's sitting with me, it's stirring something within me, I feel seeing and I feel known. It's calling forth. Greater wholeness. For me, I mean, it's a game changer. So I want to and then there's, there's the animals in the wild. So there's a whole host of things. But when I say to people, if you're saying, well, where's my health going to come from? I think when you open yourself up to this, it's almost as if you're, you're, you're functioning on a different frequency. And so there is a sense that you, did they find you, you find them, I think you find each other, that there's that conversation you have that suddenly goes to a little bit more depth than maybe it used to, or then usually would, because you are becoming more aware of your inner life. And so you're detecting others who are in a similar state, and there's a resonance there. So it might just be for a moment or get like where someone has a word of wisdom, something to say to you that's really critical that you need to hear, or that can be the the seeds of an ongoing relationship that deepens and this person accompanies for months and years on your journey. Now, if you're afraid that you're not going to file niceties, keep putting yourself out those out there in situations. And this might mean showing up in spiritual communities, maybe in a community, some other coaching group, like whatever it might be lots of things. But also, there's this wonderful category of spiritual companion called spirit of spiritual directors. And that was a critical source of support for me, essentially, someone who is trained in the art of being a soul friend. So that's also an option. So really, there's an abundance of people out there, and I have no doubt that you will find each other when the time is right.
Greg Voisen
It's interesting, you talk about this as spiritual, but I'm gonna just call them spiritual friend or director. You know, in matrimony, we're everybody out there who gets married, whether they're gay, or straight. They have this partner in life. And many people, you'll say today, well, I've grown away from my partner because of my spiritual beliefs. My current spiritual beliefs, people will actually admit that they'll say, hey, things aren't the way that they used to be. What advice would you give somebody, look, you're married, you have three kids, hopefully, your wife is your spiritual friend as well. We hope that, but even not if they're not, the partner is helping you grow in ways in leaps and bounds that because they're testing you. So the question is whether or not that test is something you still need? Or if you've outgrown it, would you want to comment on that at all? I know, it's kind of off the wall question. I
Ben Katt
love it. Let's give it a try here. So I've been married for 20 years got married very young, my wife and I are probably on our fifth marriage to each other, something like that. I say that to just signal like, you know, any relationship, it constantly evolves. And so we've been fortunate, fortunate enough, from a young age to kind of develop this sense of spaciousness, that we each are on our own spiritual journey. And yet, there's a trust and safety to bring that back to each other. And that the benefit then is incredible. So we're not static individuals, we're dynamic, and we're changing. And so I'm grateful for that. I also realized that's not the case for everyone or it's not a place you currently are at but maybe you one day we'll we'll get to. But it's really important not whether it's a partner, like spouse or a friend to not like when you go on when you're on this inner journey. When your your spiritual beliefs or practices shift and change. When you make new discoveries about who you are and why you're here. It's important not to write others off just because they haven't gone through that. And I think that's what you're getting at here. Is there still something there's always something they have to offer us? And so this work of integration often like that coming back home, which we're talking about in the Baxter to my book, I really say don't like be very careful not just to throw aside relationships. They might have not have the depth say as some of your soul friend relationships, but these are people who will love you and care for you. And they have at times seen you too and you've been unable to see yourself. They've they've called you out on your bullshit, right? They've, they've been really like a critical presence for you. Now. Then there's also a time and I Think this is what I like to advocate like go on your inner journey at the beginning when you need to let go of something, sometimes, again, this is this is not a one size fits all advice. But sometimes it's really easy to say I know I promise it's the other person. And so we say the thing I need to like, oh, is the other person, I'm sorry, there's likely more internal dynamics that you need to sit with first. So what would it look like for you to go on that inner journey, maybe not be sharing everything with that person, because you don't have that level of trust in your your marriage or relationship. And on the other side, you might discover, wow, the issue is, I've been showing up in this small way. And I need to at least give give this relationship a chance, I need to give it a chance, I need to show up more fully. And guess what we might realize that no, we're not compatible for this next phase of the journey. Okay? But at least like you've done your due diligence, and you haven't just put something on someone else, you've done that inner work. And because if you don't do that in work, and you just like bail right at the beginning, guess what? You're gonna repeat those same pattern habits. So there you go. I took it, I took a stab at it. There's a few different things I said there. But oh, no,
Greg Voisen
I think I think what you said was very meaningful. And, you know, you already mentioned returning home, you know, both literally and metaphorically, it's kind of a significant aspect of, of the book. And Joseph Campbell's Hero's Journey is also true with all the helpers along the way, kind of returning home, you know, you can look at it and, and all of the things from Beauty and the Beast to anything that's been graded by Disney. What does home mean to you now, after all of these experiences that you've had, versus what home may have meant to you, prior to you having had these experiences?
Ben Katt
Yeah. So this is sort of playfully entering that initially, the the initial title that I was playing with for the book was something like way, or the way in the publisher was like, the way home. And I did have a chapter already in the book that was, it's the idea of returning home. So it was there. But really, that it's like, that's what they saw. And I'm like, no that and I already had language speaking to that effect. But yes, this whole thing of like, adventuring towards wholeness or this hero's journey. I think another way of understanding it is the journey back home to yourself. And there's a few things that I do mean by that I think one home is synonymous with wholeness. Now, what is wholeness? wholeness is about the sense of welcoming and integrating all those different parts of who you are and who you've been. So not just casting them off, not just dismissing them. There is a sense of, as I talked about in the book, even welcoming home those parts of ourselves that and saying, Hey, thanks, achiever, Ben perfectionist, Ben people pleaser have been util played an invaluable role in helping me become who I am. And your work is no longer needed. That's, you know, that's this idea of dismissing the loyal soldier, which is something that Bill Plotkin and Richard Rohr and others talk about. So rather than just forcefully saying, forget that I can't believe that's who I was. It's it is this coming to terms with how you showed up in the world, and even the parts of the brokenness, the broken parts of yourself? So wholeness? I think another part is, it is about self belonging, by that I mean is we're not looking to anyone else outside of us, we're not externally reference we're internally referenced, we've tapped into that inner stillness, that spaciousness, that that expanse of consciousness of who we really are, that there's a sense of, even as I'm facing challenges, or there's these opinions and perspectives of others, I'm no longer looking to all those other external forces for validation or confirmation about who I am. Because I know, I've tapped into that, that essence of who I am.
Greg Voisen
Well, you can have and I think that the thing is, sometimes people come to a truth with a big T, not a little T, they have a knowing versus a belief, a an OWI, and G with a big K, meaning that is my knowing meaning. This isn't just a belief. This is a knowing for me, right? Yeah. And I think some sometimes people look at that. And they maybe say, well, that's kind of weird, because doesn't knowing ever change, or does only a belief change, right? And I'm going to refer to this because you have a phrase in the book that I'm going to end this podcast with you say called loud. Lastly, staying weird, is a phrase that you use to describe remaining faithful to one's unique path. Yeah, okay. So let's talk about it as a knowing Yes, it's, I know who I am. I'm going to be faithful to who I am. And I'll set my values around what I believe or I should say what I know that is, so when a word and often pressure kind of comes in from conformity, because outside world says, well, that's not truly who you are been, it's the dot, dot. What advice do you have for those who are seeking to embrace? And this is no cliche word, but our authentic selves. You know, it's spoken about a lot, but at the same time, then people still seem to seek it. And maybe they will seek that authenticity or knowing most of their life, or all of their life.
Ben Katt
Yeah, this is a great question to come to, because also, it's related to that, kind of the last understanding of wholeness I have which is it is this idea of being true to yourself or, and continuing on the journey, this idea of growing so the last chapter book, it is called begin again, because I believe we're always spiraling up into greater wholeness, meaning, we are anchored in our knowing, but how that that is expressed in the world, right in the world of quote, unquote, the unknown around us. Now, we can move forward with courage and it's dynamic, we're both highly adaptable, and by being highly adaptable, we're totally stable, then nothing can faze us. And I see that at the core of this, this knowing that's attained. And so as it relates to this idea of, of staying weird. Without getting into all of its state, be faithful to your weird A, the word Wyrd, which is a word out of like Norse mythology, ma'am, was an initial phrase that Joseph Campbell use before he started saying, you know, follow your bliss. So there's this idea of being true to your path. But but but weird, wy rd what I love about that, and kind of adapting for just to say Stay weird. It's got these three meanings and one was, it's this idea of like that which is otherworldly, it's like otherworldly. So this idea of as you walk on the path, you know, being someone who's attuned to your spiritual life, who's developing your spiritual life, who's in the conversation with the something more who's open to mystical presence, that mystical experience, that's a core aspect, okay? Another meaning of weird would be just that sense of like, odd or different. And to walk on this path, as someone say, who's in tune with your knowing, or you know, someone who is seeking wholeness, it also means there's going to be certain practices that you engage in with spiritual practices or mist, I talked about ritual practices, there's going to be decisions you make, there's going to be things you you turn away from you turned down, it'd be pattern operating patterns that you move, according to that are different from, say that as quote, and how many move around. So that's just weird. And then the last one, I have a weird wy rd is that is actually tied to an image of these three sisters who were spinning the Threads of Fate, okay. And so this idea to walk on this path out of the inner knowing it's like you are, one we see is you're making your own destiny, which I realize I can sign, like some like it really kind of crazy and out there. But what that means is you are living your life with intention. You're not just functioning like a machine, you're not a cog in the wheel, you're very deliberate about law, allowing that inner knowing to guide how you move in, quote, unquote, the outer world. So Stay, stay
Greg Voisen
weird, Stay weird. And your book, as it says on the back, the hero's journey is an adventure in leaving the familiar of falling into the unknown, and rising to wholeness. I think that's a great statement. It's a great way to kind of leave this interview as well. This is a powerful guide for you, if you're on that journey, but most of us we're all on the journey all the time. You know, the question is, are we willing to awaken to the possibilities of this journey, and actually embrace it versus being afraid to what actually might be there lying out there for us? And I think that spiritual friend is a good example you made the spiritual director is you're gonna find people that are going to help you no matter what they're out there. It call it the Akashic Record, you know, it's written into your record. The reality is, is there is going to be cut someone along the way that you you go, Oh, my gosh, when you look back at the story, you go, yeah, that person was there and they really helped me. Oh, that person was there and they really helped it that time. You don't always see it that way. But you will when you actually go back and reflect on it. So I want to thank you for writing the way home a wonderful book, discovering the The hero's journey in wholeness at midlife, actually all of life. And and the reality is, is that, Ben, I wish you well on this journey because I know there's lots of twists and turns for you as you move forward with the new book. As you move forward doing your work with the people who are incarcerated, I'm really commend you for that, and the work that you're going to do there, your nonprofit work, and obviously juggling all these balls with still children, and a family. And it is something and I think the key is, is we we use the word work versus the word immersiveness. You know, we are, we are immersed in this experience. And I think the key to it to living life fully is to be grateful. Grateful for all the stumbles and falls and things that happen, the excitement, everything along the way, and say, this is Ben cat. This is Greg voice it. And I want to thank you for bringing that out in this book. I really do. Well,
Ben Katt
Greg, thanks so much for having me and to everyone who joined us for this. Thanks for being here. And one last little Joseph Campbell thing that I love to remind people of and it's related to the health, it's related to the guidance, all the things that he just said, doors will open, where there were no doors. So Greg, I hope that's true for you and everyone listening that you know, as you take that next step into the unknown, just trust doors will open where there were no doors. If
Greg Voisen
that's the only thing you took away from this podcast. That was a big one. Thanks so much, Ben, for being on namaste to you. Thank you for spending the time with my listeners. I truly appreciate you and the message. From the way home we'll put a link to the podcast if you want to learn more about Ben go to Benjamin B. NJAMINKTT. There you can learn more about his book meditation, coaching, speaking and everything else you need to know. Thanks so much, Ben.
Ben Katt
Thank you, Greg.
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Inside Personal Growth with Greg Voisen · Podcast 1114: The Transformation Company with Chuck KocherIn this episode of Inside Personal Growth, we are joined by Certified Executive Business Strategist, Chuck Kocher to discuss about his company, The Transformation Company, among other things.
Chuck has 31 years of sales, marketing, leadership, team-building and product and business development experience in the Technology and Office Products Industries. He is well-known for his ability to help start-up, early stage and high growth businesses, that want to increase their sales, profits, and cash flow, as well as develop focused strategies and professionally managed organizations.
Chuck’s practice is a dedicated team of strategic planning experts and support staff with extensive high-growth business experience in strategic planning, leadership, culture and people development. With all his expertise, he has received 20 global, regional and state awards for professional excellence. He also has one of the highest client retention rates in the world and his clients have achieved distinction through results in both the local community and within their respective industries.
Chuck runs a company called The Transformation Company. By the name itself, they help businesses transform and scale up. They have four factors they consider as foundations of business transformation which are People, Strategy, Execution, and Cash. They also provide different processes to be able to help their clients and deliver their goals. Their initial processes include Diagnostic/High Level 4 Decisions Assessment, Alignment of Program Goals, Review of Business Model + Financials, Pre-Retreat Intro Calls and Kick-off Retreat. Then, their ongoing processes include Executive Coaching and Quarterly Planning.
You may know more of these and Chuck by visiting their website.
Thanks and happy listening!
You may also refer to the transcripts below for the full transciption (not edited) of the interview.
Interview Transcipt -Not EditedEmailDownloadNew TabGreg Voisen
Welcome back to Inside Personal Growth. This is Greg Voisen, the host of Inside Personal Growth. And I have Chuck Kocher here, and Chuck is the CEO of the “The Transformation Company”. And he's in Colorado Springs, Denver area. And I met him through Carrie Scoggins, who wrote a book on ownership from Durango about a company that she turned into an actually became an ESOP. And we started talking. And somehow Chuck's name came up. And then chuck has worked with Vern Harnish. For everybody that knows scaling. And Vern is going to be on an episode of Inside personal growth coming up here. Good day, Chuck, how you doing?
Chuck Kocher
Greg? I'm doing fantastic. Great to connect again. And looking forward to our discussion.
Greg Voisen
Well, I'm too as well. And I love the statement you have by Marshall Goldsmith.
Chuck Kocher
Yeah.
Greg Voisen
Got you here won't get you there. And that's what we're going to talk about, is usually you hit the glass ceiling when you're in business. And Chuck's gonna share with us some of his experiences and how he's helped people transform their business, and I'm gonna let him know a bit about you. The transformation company, as I said, is based in Colorado, it's committed to helping businesses achieve extraordinary success and sustainable transformation. Chuck's not only a high caliber business coach, but also a renowned speaker and expert in scaling up companies. He has a distinguished track record of working with companies across various industries to propel them to new levels of financial success and operational excellence. With a passion for driving radical change. Chuck employs cutting edge strategies and tools to help leaders and their teams exceed their business goals. And today, we're going to delve into the methods, his experiences and how he's helped transform the landscape for numerous businesses. Well, Chuck, it's a pleasure having you on inside personal growth. And I know that my listeners are going to learn a lot from you. But I'd like for you to share a bit about your background and what inspired you to start that transformation company. How did you get into this gig? And what is it that you like about it? Oh, my. Well,
Chuck Kocher
Back in the day, I worked in corporate for 20 years, it had a couple of tenure runs with several companies. But as I progressed through each of the companies, and the second company, I started getting a bug about half of my own business. And my wife and I both were in corporate jobs. And, you know, we got married later, we started a family later. And you know, you get the you feel like you have the handcuffs on. Once you once you have a nice income, you know, on the corporate side. And at some point late in the 90s. It really it really got to a point my wife said to me, hey, Chuck, you know, you're gonna become unemployable if you don't start your own business. And, and I'll still work for a couple more years, but I want to be home with the kids and she was an executive in HR, when she said that to me, and I'm like, okay, I'm gonna go for it. So timing is everything. Think of the tech crash at 911. That's when I started my coaching practice. Way back in the early 2000s. I looked at starting a business from scratch. I looked at buying a business, acquiring a business, and then I stumbled on business coaching. So I'm not gonna, you know, it was one of those days I got an email business coach. I said, Oh, that looks cool, because everybody coming out of corporate usually goes into business consulting. And once I started looking at the coaching, then I saw the premise of it which is teaching people how to do things and transferring the IP, you know, so they know how to do it, and really coaching them through that process. I like that I played sports coach, my son, and every sport he, he played. And he did scouts, all kinds of cool things. And I was coached, you know, by the executive coach in the 90s, from the center of creative leadership, which is like, renowned for leadership development. So I stumbled on coaching, I bought a franchise model out of Australia called Action coach, which gave me an opportunity to learn what a coach is, how to coach, how to market how to sell within that model. And that model was developed by Brad Sugars, who's now been up based in Vegas. And he's probably got over I think it's over 1200 coaches now, globally. And so I was one of the first US coaches that come in. And what I loved about what Brad had for me at that time, is actually learned how to coach versus hanging a shingle up and saying, I'm a coach, or a consultant. And so that's how I got started. And probably about three or four years in, I realized a couple of things. One, I needed more, I needed more. And one of my coaches said, Chuck read the Rockefeller habits, which was Verne's first book, but he's got a revised edition now that just hit the market 20th Anniversary Edition, I read it and I go, wow, this stuff is going to take me to another level, because I wanted to, I was coaching smaller businesses, then I started graduating the largest small business and mid market, they needed something like that, versus what I had, originally would action, which again, was great stuff loved, love the organization. And so I found Rockefeller habits. And then today, it's called Scaling up, we'll talk a little bit more later about that, and started using it. And then by year four, as a coach, I realized, Greg, that it wasn't just a fluke business, I started or I was going away from corporate, you know, even though I was, but I was it was more I have landed on my life purpose. I know, this is what I was built to do. All the mentors I had in the corporate side, that taught me how to think and build businesses do all kinds of cool things. That's I was being built to be a coach. And I just loved it. I was like, wow, life, purpose, work purpose, you know, business purpose, all unified. So that was 2004.
Greg Voisen
And transformation company that you've developed now is, you know, it's fundamentally around those fundamental, what I want to call them philosophies around building a business, growing a business, transforming a business. And I want to ask you a couple of questions here, because, you know, fundamentally, the philosophy about business transformation, what makes you different from general business, coaching or consulting Now you said coaching, and I get that, that words used all over the place. But oftentimes, our experiential learnings are the best places that we get, even when we have a coach, there's nothing wrong with coaches, we all need to have a coach. But usually, for businesses, whether they're small, medium, or large, it's about the experiences that they have that actually give them that level to break through to the next level. Yeah, yeah. And so your your company is really different. Because you're saying we're going to transform the culture, the people that we're going to transform, we're not just going to coach, we're going to actually help create transformation. And we aren't consultants, we're, we're resultants. So you're, I say, got a guy said, Hey, I'm a result. Yeah, what I do, yeah, yeah.
Chuck Kocher
Yep. Yep. Yeah. So when you think of that, you know, the, the context of transformation. One is, most people don't know, like, they'll say to me, Chuck, I've got a business that's grown beyond me. You know, I was cool when I ran up to 10 million, but now it's 25 million. I don't know what to do. You know, it's kind of grown beyond me. So that's an opportunity for transformation, you know, versus just saying, okay, sell it, get out of it, you know, hire somebody to run it for you, you know, type of approach. So it's really about running into those challenges, or those opportunities, either one, right and going, I don't know how I'm gonna get to that next place. And usually, the best way to get there is to think about think differently. You know, I love that advertising from Apple back in the late 90s. The people that really make a difference, think differently. So as a coach, and which transformation, I'm going to coach my client to think differently. You know, because whatever that whatever got them here isn't gonna get them there like it says right from Marshall Goldsmith and walk them take them through that path of transformation.
Greg Voisen
You know, that's so true. I just had Guy Kawasaki on here. Oh guide guy did an interview just a week before last we published. And you know, in 1997 When you say that Apple was supposed to fall under because of what Windows and Microsoft. And they started that think different campaign. But here's the important thing about that think different campaign. You know, they took Amelia Earhart and Einstein and they said, Hey, if you want to be somebody different, you have to have a Macintosh. Macintosh is what's going to make the difference. And and as only Guy Kawasaki can do. He was sitting in the boardroom with Steve Jobs. This is a great story. And there was the commercial that was created by Apple to start running. And the ad agency guys said to Steve, Hey, Steve, I have two copies of these. I'm going to give one to you. And I'm going to give one to guy guys sitting there. And Steve says to the ad agency guy, no, you're going to give both to me. And guy's not going to get one. And guy turned to Steve and said, Hey, Steve, and you're gonna love this story. What's wrong? Don't you trust me? Steve turned to Guy Kawasaki and said, No, guy. I don't trust you. And guy turned to Steve, and said, That's okay, Steve, I don't trust you. And the reality is he said it cost him 10s of millions of dollars. No, that reality that story was here's the point. Sometimes in our life, no matter what business it is, are life things. We have to stand up for ourselves. And we have to let other people know. And actually Steve, job respected people that actually stood up and spoke for themselves. Okay, yep. And so this is where we come to your strategies. A lot of times when you're in a boardroom, it's strategic? Could you describe one or two key strategies you commonly employ when working with a new client aiming to scale their operations? What are some of the things that you do that other people maybe don't do? Or if they do, do you do it differently? Well,
Chuck Kocher
yeah, we just might do in a different level. And, and again, every company's gonna be a little bit different, because they're going to be in a certain place, if you will. But there's some tenants that you have to work on. People, you know, the people part, and the cultural part are massive. And Colin says, People First well, you can have great people. But if you don't have strategy, it doesn't work. So you got to still work on the people saw it. And I find most organizations like get get that they may, may have an idea of what that is. But we teach that in, we coach that in, and we look to build a winning culture, and identify the culture because a lot of companies just kind of happen, culture happens, right? You that you're gonna have a culture, but is it defined? Does it have the behaviors nailed down? And is the best place to work? What is that with the vision to build that? So culture is everything? It's the foundation? Next thing is people? Do you have the right talent? You know, do you have a players? Or do you have a bunch of friends and buddies that you started with and family and whatever it might be, but they're not necessarily a players. And if you're going to scale, you have to have a predominance of a players at the top of the organization. No matter how big you are, you got to scale that to and Steve Jobs, by the way, talked about the value of an A plus player. That's what he that's how his brain worked. If I have 10, A pluses equals 30 Bees, if you will say the Think about that. What's an A player look like? And a player's, it's the performance side, it's the culture side, they live and breathe it, right? And they do the extras. They think for you, they challenge you, they push you, but that's what you want around you want to surround yourself and then the tenant of leadership was in? Are you the leader? You need to be 10 years from now, five years from now, wherever you want to go? And where are you at? What's your lid or limitation? Like I said earlier, and then we work on a leadership piece, because the owner or the partners have to raise their leadership to lift any company to any level that has to come with the package. You cannot grow and scale without developing and working on your leadership and it's a never ending journey. Okay.
Greg Voisen
So what you could do for our listeners is share a success story because stories always are there, where your intervention or your company the transformation company, help Someone else lead to a significant transformation for the client. What's a what's a story you've got that really peaks to the top of your mind? And you're like, Yeah, this is a great one. What would that be?
Chuck Kocher
Well, I've got got a company in Australia, he had seven years ago, met the CEO in a masterclass, I was teaching for Vern, and we struck it off. And he said, I want to I want to scale my company, and I want to build a bunch of other companies. And, and this client, his name is Jake, came to me said, but I don't know how to lead it. I'm not sure what to do with it. But I know that I've got some big dreams, big vision to do, you know, to do that. And so we kind of got together and, you know, now retro forward, he's got five company. So working on the six, he hasn't been working in the business anymore. He's gotten on top of the business where he's just working on a bigger things at the very top of the company. And he actually exited for a period of time while the company is growing. So but back then Jake didn't have the culture nailed down, he had no idea what it was, he built that in, so it's a best place to work. Second thing he did is surround himself with talent. He's got amazing talent and organization. They've got technology that blows away Amazon, and some of their technologies. That's how good these guys are. But Jake said, I've got to lead, because he was the chief technologist, he was the guy that was the smartest guy in the company. So we had to help him develop his team, his leadership, and then put in the rhythms of scaling up and Rockefeller habits, which are daily, weekly, quarterly, monthly, and annual meetings that get built into the company that keeps the company focused in on the right things. And then we got his vision clear about companies,
Greg Voisen
you the transformation company, and you chuck how people build systems and most businesses that are going through a lot of them, you know, whether it's Michael Gerber, who used to talk about this all the time, you know, if you want to take yourself from a small company, you have to have systems procedures in place that can be operationally performed. Now, what are some of the common challenges businesses face when trying to transform? And how do you overcome help them overcome these hurdles? Because there's two or three really big challenges I'm sure you can point out that most businesses are faced with, and what would you say they are? And what are the ways that our listeners could hear from you how to overcome those hurdles?
Chuck Kocher
Yeah, sure. Well, one of them was the people side is getting the right people in and then, you know, at some point, you have to coach up or coach out some of the core leadership, if they're not going to grow with you. So it's leadership, right is always a challenge, and getting the right people on the bus to scale the organization. Next thing is finance. And accounting, we find and I see this and small, very small mid market and even mid market companies, where an accountant or bookkeeper is doing their finances and their 20 $30 million company. And the CEO either understands financials enough to be dangerous, or abdicates that to whoever's helping him with the financials. So teaching in and getting a hold of all the finance and accounting metrics, because you can't drive cash flow, and gross margin, if you don't understand your numbers, you can build the top part revenue and scale on that. But you could be scaling yourself out of business, we literally have seen it with companies that will come into so financial acuity, and then there's clarity of vision and strategy. I mean, you have to have a destination, I don't care if you call it the Northstar, the B hag the big, hairy, audacious goal, as Jim Collins calls it, but you have to have a destination, whether it's five years or 10 years, what's that big thing that's out there, that's gonna stretch you to greatness. And then once you have that, get real clear what it is literally write a book on it or create a creative visual on what the company looks like in that period when you achieve it. And then it comes down to strategy. What are the right strategies that you need to deploy, to differentiate your company, attract the very best talent, move into different markets, maybe acquire other companies? You know, there's so many elements of strategy, it's going to be different for different companies. But those are some of the things we've done to help companies transform. Those
Greg Voisen
are those are great, those are great. The question, I would say, and maybe the listeners have is, you know, a lot of times people get jolted and they get going on a new track, just like you said about your business in Australia than the guy left. How do you help companies make sure that that whatever you're implementing is sustainable and has a long term benefit for them? Because this is something whether you You're a guy who is the co founder that was there not, it has to run, whether he's there or not. And these systems and procedures have to stay in place to keep it sustainable. Right?
Chuck Kocher
Well, the value of any company goes up a magnitude when the CEOs redundant. You know, that's something I've learned over the years. So how do we do that? It's all about discipline and focus. When you think of sports, the very best athletes in the world, whatever sport, it really doesn't matter, have discipline and focus, they don't just get there, when a tournament win the World Series, or the Super Bowl, there's discipline and focus. And so within scaling up, we have those disciplines and focuses that are proven across the globe, cuts across for profit, for profit, nonprofit, we've got things in government that work, it's all about discipline and focus, we bring the framework framework, we teach it in, and it becomes a rhythm within how they run their organization. And that's how you get sustainability not jumping from this bright, shiny object to another, which some people do. They can't sit there not discipline, but the greatest companies in the world have discipline and focus, because not one that got there by luck, or they won the lottery, they have discipline and focus, even Richard Branson, with all the companies that he's had Branson on the branded companies, and the companies that he's ran over the years at discipline.
Greg Voisen
And, and I would add to that, that it's commitment, grit, determination, yeah. Because with that, that's what that's creating. In other words, you got to have a purpose. So everybody's got a purpose, you got a vision, and then the goals come. And then as long as you have the grit and determination, and you don't give up too early, you're going to be a success. Now, a big part of business transformation is, as you said, leadership, we saw Steve Jobs, we talked about him a bit. Maybe some leaders have different personality styles in the way they lead, we see that all the time. But what qualities do you believe are essential for effective leadership in a rapidly growing company? That is the key, we need to know most of my listeners out there are coming from LinkedIn, all the companies are growing, you know, if if they say if you're ripe, You're rotten, you're not growing at this point. Everyone is trying to grow. The question is, what are the qualities of the leaders? I need? You've already mentioned a plus players, I get that. But where would you chuck, they are the essential qualities that I need to have in leadership in my company?
Chuck Kocher
Well, first of all, we'll commitment that we need to you know, as a leader in the 21st century, you have to be authentic, you have to have emotional intelligence, that's a huge quality for leadership, you have to set the bar, you have to be willing to do whatever it takes to example that back into your company. And you have to be able to build connection with the people you work with, whether it's a remote company, or you know, in a brick, brick and mortar. So those are some big things. And then there's accountability, can you and will you hold not just yourself, but others accountable and doing a way where it's not demotivating? If you will, I don't think you need to be a Tony Robbins, I think you have to build, you know, hire people in that have the self drive, you know, and I also think in leadership, you have to always be willing to work on yourself, you have to be humble, you know, be willing to learn from your mistakes. And because if you've arrived as a leader, you'll never get hired into any organizations we work with. We work with people that are growing learning, know, they're on a journey, if you will. So those are some tenants that I think
Greg Voisen
I also would add, you know, and I know you've heard plenty of great speeches, but the Bill Gates's of the world, in this in the Steve Jobs of the world, and the Warren Buffett's of the world have always said that one of their best things that they developed was their intuition. And they followed their intuition. And I'd like to add that, for all those business leaders out there, if you've got a hunch, and that's where this question is going. And you really feel strong about it. Follow it because based on your experience, Chuck, what trends do you see shaping the future business transformation? Because today we live in a world that's dynamic, always on fast paced, lots of changes happening rapidly. Technology is transforming all of us at such a rapid speed. Here you are sitting at an age pretty close to me. What are you going to recommend to people that are growing a business and we see this massive, massive shift and change in almost everything we do from Ai, to you name it, it's out there?
Chuck Kocher
Yeah, well I think you just named a few, right? The technology convergence that's going on everywhere. And in every way shape and fashion. In every industry, there's not one that's not being affected. AI is at the tip of the iceberg. We don't know, we don't know. But we're learning. And companies are starting to deploy it as we speak. You also have generational things going on, with people that you really have to pay attention to. Because think about it, everybody's talking about Gen Z right now, this moment, right? Because that's the younger Gen, but then the alphas are coming up, which are 14, and under another generation right before it. So you have multiple generations at an unprecedented number of them in the workplace today, that want and need different things. So you're gonna have to really, as you, as you sculpt your company, scale your organization, you're going to be aware of that you have to connect with it. You can't just be a hierarchal leader that we had in the previous century, that was built upon military principles from World War One and World War Two. So as you look at the people side, we have unbelievable dynamics going on, you have the remote work. So can you work, can you build a company, I have virtual companies, nobody's in a brick and mortar, other than their own home or work facility, but they're remotely built. And that's a dynamic now you have to pay attention to. The other thing is economics. Lily, by looking at your phone is moment, you know about the economics, not just here, all over the world, and you're affecting things, competition comes from not just local, it's everywhere, and anybody, if you will, and those are some things that are there at play here. But if you're smart, and you differentiate what you have, and you connect into whatever part of that generational change that I talked about, and have something that actually does what it says it does, and you back it up with a big brand promise, you're gonna be successful, you're gonna be very,
Greg Voisen
what advice vice would you have for young entrepreneurs starting out where, you know, what we've just talked about, sometimes seems hard to grasp. It's like a fire hose. And I have no bandwidth. You know, here I am, with all this coming at me. And they see it as opportunity. Yet sometimes they get bogged down with their dream, because there's all these little things that are affecting them psychologically, emotionally, right. And we know that every entrepreneur goes through this, I've been through it, I've started up five or six or seven companies. And we are not always on an even keel emotionally, as a coach, what do you tell people to get through the toughest times in their lives, which is growing a young startup company into something of substance?
Chuck Kocher
Well, I mean, you know, I coach, that the Jenner the Gen Zers, I've got a company in Singapore, their average age is 24. Okay, and they started something up, and they are now scaling like crazy. So, again, it's it goes back to what I said earlier, right? What's your passion? What's your purpose, and purpose today is different, you know, than it was maybe 30 years ago, purpose is about making a difference in society, in a community, you know, and knowing what that is, is always going to give them that line of sight to do what they want to do. Second thing is you have to stay within a we're gonna call it, you know, the guardrails. Once you decide what your strategy is, you can't keep jumping around. And a new company has to do a lot of, you know, they have to go out and explore and test and measure but at some point, you have to lock in on that and go for it. You cannot just randomly, you know, hope it happens. So we advise always, and I advise this all the time, to my younger, I love coaching younger Gen because they think differently than I ever did when I was their age, and I love it. I love it, because they come up with new ideas. They challenge everything, right? But the big, big thing with that is does that challenge turned into something substantial, and a product or solution that's meaningful towards that market that's targeting and a lot of that a lot of people just want to sell it. One guy said to me, Chuck, I'm gonna sell to 6 billion people. I said, No, no, no, that's not a core customer. So locking in with the products and services and that customer and doing it differently. Not like the competition, separating yourself from the competition, that is always going to win in any market. And the companies that do that, always get massive scale, and then go on to great things. And you can see it with all the cool companies we have out there. Now they started just like you said, you know, in a garage or in the basement, right, fine or in a Starbucks. Well,
Greg Voisen
it's great advice and with term that you have, that you've provided the listeners. And so this is a show on personal growth. And everything that you've mentioned so far, is about our willingness to be curious, investigate, and always learning always on always learning. And you know, what I want to find out in this is our wrap up this interview. How has your journey from where you started in corporate, to then coming on with scaling up and meeting, Vern, and going through all the experiences transformed or impacted your own personal growth?
Chuck Kocher
Oh, wow. Well, I mean, I exist to help people be the very best. And that means I have to be my very best. And to see the success that the companies have had, whether it had been sold, handed on to the sixth generation, or the third generation, or to the employees, if you will, or the owner cells, and now they're often Tahiti, exploit, you know, pursuing a new passion. That's why I exist. So when I started, I wasn't sure how that was all going to happen. But over the years, and my continual learning, my mentors that I've been connected to over the years, and still still am, has helped me see things differently. But just knowing that I've made a difference, and I can look and say, wow, look what that company is doing for their community, look what they're doing for their country, you know, if you will, that's all I care about, you know, to give my best, help them be their best, and net. And the best satisfaction, Greg, that I ever get, is that person saying, Chuck, I couldn't have done it without your coaching. I can't thank you enough, you've changed my life, not just my business. And that's why I exist. And I love it. And I'm gonna do it. As long as God lets me.
Greg Voisen
Well, that's a great testament to who you are and what you do. And I want to thank you for being on inside personal growth, sharing some of your stories, some of your wisdom, talking with my listeners about what it is you do. For my listeners, there'll be a link in the show notes. It's called the transformation. company. There, you can learn more about Chuck. You can learn more about his offerings and what he does, you can learn about his integration. Or he I should say his collaboration with Vern Harnish. Chuck, you've been a fantastic guest on the show. Thank you. Thank you for your time, and your inspiration and your energy and your insights about how to scale up a business, how to transform a business, and most importantly, how people can stay inspired, in spite of some of the challenges they're going to face running their businesses. You've been. It's been a pleasure having you on,
Chuck Kocher
Greg, I can't thank you enough was wonderful just to talk about entrepreneurship and scale and stuff like that. And thank you so much for allowing me to come on your podcast.
Greg Voisen
Namaste, my friend. Have a good rest of your day. Cheers, man.
Chuck Kocher
Take care.
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Inside Personal Growth with Greg Voisen · Podcast 1113: Raging Fire of Love with Kelly James Clark, Ph.DIn a captivating episode of Inside Personal Growth, I had the honor of interviewing Kelly James Clark, PhD, a distinguished professor of philosophy and author of the profound book “Raging Fire of Love: What I’ve Learned from Jesus, the Jews, and the Prophet.” Kelly’s work is a remarkable exploration of interfaith understanding and compassion, focusing on the commonalities among the Abrahamic traditions—Christianity, Judaism, and Islam.
Kelly’s journey into interfaith dialogue began in the wake of 9/11 when he recognized the urgent need for greater understanding and tolerance among different religious communities. His work emphasizes the profound role that love and compassion play in these faith traditions, challenging the misconceptions and biases that often lead to fear and division. Kelly’s book, enriched by his extensive academic background and personal experiences, serves as a beacon of hope and a call to action for fostering interfaith harmony.
During our conversation, Kelly highlighted the critical role of fear in perpetuating intolerance and conflict. He pointed out that fear often creates enemies where there are none, and it is exploited by leaders and media to deepen divisions. Kelly’s insights into the cognitive psychology of religion reveal that overcoming fear is essential for cultivating genuine love and compassion. He shared his experiences of engaging with Muslims, Christians, and Jews around the world, finding that despite cultural and religious differences, most people share common desires for peace, security, and a better future for their children.
One of the most striking aspects of Kelly’s work is his emphasis on the similarities in the teachings of love and compassion across the Abrahamic faiths. Contrary to his initial expectations, Kelly found that Judaism, Christianity, and Islam all demand compassion not only for one’s own community but also for strangers and even enemies. This discovery underscores the universal nature of compassion as a fundamental human value, transcending religious boundaries.
Kelly’s approach to interfaith dialogue is deeply personal and transformative. He advocates for stepping out of one’s comfort zone and engaging directly with people from different backgrounds. By doing so, we can break down barriers and build meaningful relationships based on mutual respect and understanding. Kelly’s advice is simple yet profound: start by inviting a neighbor from a different faith tradition for a cup of coffee and a conversation.
In “Raging Fire of Love,” Kelly James Clark offers practical guidance for fostering interfaith understanding and harmony. His work encourages readers to ignite the flames of compassion in their hearts and to reach out to those who are different from them. By doing so, we can create a more inclusive and compassionate world. And to learn more about Kelly and his extensive body of work, visit his website at Kelly James Clark.
For more enriching conversations and insights, tune in to Inside Personal Growth. Let’s continue to learn from each other and make the world a better place, one conversation at a time. Thanks and happy listening!
You may also refer to the transcripts below for the full transciption (not edited) of the interview.
Interview Transcipt -Not EditedEmailDownloadNew TabGreg Voisen
Well, welcome back to Inside Personal Growth. Joining me from the good state of Michigan. Is that right?
Kelly James Clark
That is correct.
Greg Voisen
Is Kelly James Clark. And we're going to be speaking with Kelly about his new book, which is called Raging Fire. And we'll put a link to that. And he's going to hold up the book, right there, Raging Fire: What I've learned from Jesus, the Jews and the Prophet. And this is an interesting book. And this is for those of you interested in spirituality and your growth in spirituality and expanding your consciousness. Our conversation is going to give you an opportunity to do that. If you want to learn more about Kelly, James Clark, you can go to kellyjamesclark.wixsite.com. That's where you can learn more about him. And this is not his only book. He has many books. How many books do you have to your publishing background?
Kelly James Clark
including books that I've added, edited, probably more than 3030.
Greg Voisen
So, he is not new to writing. And this book is definitely an opportunity for people to take a deep dive. And so I want to let them know a little bit about you. Kelly, James Clark is PhD, University of Notre Dame is distinguished professor of philosophy at Ivan Holden. Hall doon had been holding it see I got it wrong anyway, even though I told me that and diversity of Istanbul Kelly has held previous positions at Grand Valley State University, Calvin University and Gordon College and visiting appointments at Oxford University, the University of St. Andrews, Peking University in the University of Notre Dame, he's an author, editor and co-author of more than 30 books, including this one, we're going to be talking about raging fire of love what I've learned from Jesus, the Jews and the prophets. He's got other books called strangers and neighbors, friends, a Muslim Christian, Jewish reflections on compassion and peace. So look him up on the web. He also won third place in the Christianity, today's book of the year. But he said, which might not sound like much, but the Pope's book was eighth. So he writes broadly, and he speaks widely on compassion, tolerance and peace. And that's what we're going to be speaking with today. I can't remember did your forward on this one was the foreword it was the Dalai Lama or No, it's the Dalai Lama. Yes. Yeah. Well, when you get the Dalai Lama to write the foreword, Darren, that's a good deal. That's a good day, let me know I was not unhappy. No, you shouldn't have been unhappy. So you know, this book delves into a lot of things. And I've come up with some questions. So, my listening audience can get an idea of not only the book, but you as a person and also what they would want to take away at the end of this interview. So I'm really, because you've written so many other books. Kelly, what inspired you to write raging fire? And what do you hope and how it will impact the conversations around love? In all of these various traditions, but Abrahamic traditions, and traditional and traditional,
Kelly James Clark
yeah, I. So I, I, after 911, I became I had written academically about liberty and tolerance. And by that, I mean, I wrote articles that basically nobody read. And then after 911, I, I thought these things that I was exploring academically and abstractly, about liberty and tolerance were issues that were desperately needed in the public around the world. And I knew after 911 Although I don't think I had a Muslim friend, I knew after 911 that Christians would be very likely to blame all Muslims, for the attack on 911. And the Islam would be looked at as a as a religion of violence, and that Arabs would be viewed as kind of subhuman violent, camel jockeys. And I, I thought that that, that I had been working on tools that people could employ to resist that the intolerance that I saw coming. And so I began, I began to put together a book called Abraham's children, and it included essays by five Muslims five Chris Christians, five Jews, and they were prominent Muslims, Christians and Jews. And one was the former President Jimmy Carter. And he wrote a really nice piece, mostly about his reflections on peace in Palestine. And I will say, as he approaches the end, I had a grant and I offered each one of the writers $5,000. And in the end, when I had the money and went to distribute it, Jimmy Carter just said, give it to a charity that works on these issues. Everyone else was an academic, they were only too eager to get their $5,000.
Greg Voisen
Well, that's Jimmy Carter, I'm surprised he's gonna give it to Habitat for Humanity, which is probably where he would have liked to seen it gone. Yeah,
Kelly James Clark
he was very, extremely kind to work with.
Greg Voisen
I'm sure that I'm sure. And I
Kelly James Clark
got the former president of Indonesia, which is the most populous Muslim country in the world, and I and I'll say this, and hopefully this will strike a chord with your readers, I had no idea that Indonesia was the largest, most populous Muslim country in the world. I knew almost nothing about Islam, I'm embarrassed to say now, and I think a lot of us don't know much in the West don't know much about Islam, and we don't know many Muslims. And that I think it's to our detriment. At any rate, they published the book, we did a conference in Washington, DC, we also did a joint evening, in a church in Alexandria, Virginia, which is, I think, the most diverse community in the United States. And that that church wanted to do any event that involved Muslims and Jews. And I said, Well, I'll do it. If you serve them dinner, not just that you have dinner served, but you serve them dinner, then we'll come and we'll do something. And you because I think a lot of good things happen when people are in a position of being a servant and are passing food back and forth to one another. Anyway, they did that. To different Imams or mosques in town came and brought members of their mosque. One of the synagogues came, and they decided at the end of that evening after the program, that they would work together on poverty reduction, but there were values that they shared. But they didn't have to agree on what they thought about God or the afterlife. But that's okay. They agreed a lot about what should happen in this life. And that is people should not starve to death. And so
Greg Voisen
that well, and people, people, as you've said, should be compassionate with one another. Um, yeah. I mean, they, you know, what do you think is fueling your talk? This was a book called raging fire. Yeah. And you're talking about Muslims, but the anti semitism around the Judaism and the Jews is just in an all time high in almost every city. Yeah. What do you think's proliferating that particular kind of anger against I get that we've got Israel, we've got Netanyahu, we've got all of these other extenuating circumstances, but not a reason to go out and bonk people over their head that are trying to worship at their church, or their synagogue, I should say at their synagogue, right? Yeah.
Kelly James Clark
I mean, most synagogues in big cities in the United States have to have round the clock security. Right? By semanas. anti semitism is so bad. And yeah, it's not good. And so my very first chapter is called fear and the failures of love. And I work in cognitive psychology of religion, and I work with cognitive psychologists and social scientists and neuroscientists. And I think the most powerful motivator for most human beings most of the time is fear. I think we want to say love makes the world go round. And it it, it may make the world go round, but it's got to correct for all the fear there is in the world. And fear is a super powerful motivator and every not just politician. Or not. Well, I won't say every politician, many politicians prey on our fears, and make them worse. The media preys on our fears. We like bad news. We don't like good news. First, you know,
Greg Voisen
this old statement, right? Like I've done personal growth interviews here that the show is called Insight, personal growth. Yeah. And it's always been said, and you can put this any way you want psychologically, philosophically, theologically, but fear has always been said the false expectation appearing real. And, you know, it's like, yes, okay, I put it in my head and from a psychological standpoint, I believe that those Jews could be a threat. I believe those muzzle could be a threat. Yeah, what I don't get and here's where you deeply explore this theme of love across different religious traditions. What are some of the most surprising commonalities you found between Jews, Jewish Jesus, Jewish teachings, and Islamic principles? I think this is where the metal hits that pedal hits the metal. It's kind of like, if you picked up the Koran if you picked up the Bible, if you picked up these all of these various tools in your one person I can ask, you're gonna find common themes amongst all
Kelly James Clark
of Yeah, I, I didn't know about love. And each of these traditions I knew Christianity quite well, it's my own tradition. And I knew Judaism well enough, at least through the Hebrew Bible. And but I didn't know much about Islam. And I was asked to write a white paper for the Fetzer Institute on loving the Abrahamic traditions. And honestly, I came with my own biases, I thought, what I would find is that Jews were just tribal and parochial, and that love only extended to their Jewish neighbors. And that Christianity is universal love, and God is love, and all is good. And then in Islam, you would just find an emphasis on justice. And with trying to do good things to get into the afterlife. That's what I thought I would find. Instead, what I found was that all three religions demand compassion. And they demand it at all sorts of levels. And they demand it for the most. The most, I guess, outsider in society, the most oppressed, they they all demand it for the for poor, the widow and the orphan. I was shocked to find out that Islam says that you the aim that releasing slaves, they thought compassion required you to release slaves, you can't treat them like human beings if you if you enslave them. And so I found compassion at every level, not only for yourself, and your family, and for your kin, but also for your tribe and your community. And for strangers, which they call Islam calls them near neighbors, but people near you, but who are different from you and believe different from you and Islam. I grew up in a culture that had both Jews and Christians, and they were all the Prophet said, we all need to live together. We're all followers of God, we need to live together. But also, and this is the thing that shocked me, they all say that we we are required to show love in various ways for our enemy. And we're not supposed to fight and we're supposed to love them. And each of each of the traditions is unequivocal about about loving stranger, neighbor, and even enemy.
Greg Voisen
I think, you know, is is off the wall question but your your father passed away kind of recently, right? I have that correct? No,
Kelly James Clark
my father passed away. Actually, my brother has been in the hospital and nearly died, but my father died young. Okay, next one, he passed away. Okay.
Greg Voisen
Okay. I maybe have gotten that wrong. But you know, when we look at finitude, all religions are trying to allow us to come to grips with what happens afterwards. Yeah. Because we all look at this as the whole, you know, you can say, Well, are you afraid of death? Are you not afraid of that? Talk about the fears? You know, and obviously, these radical groups. And in particularly kind of Muslims, you were talking about the attack at the the 911. If you talked about justice, as well, I heard that mentioned. It's kind of like an eye for an eye at that point. And they didn't care if they died, and they were going to go up. I think everybody that's out there is like, well, how many virgins? Are you going to get afterwards? You'll hear people joke about that. Right? It's it's like, it happens everywhere. What is the what is the misperception that the public has about this? Muslims in this belief that they would go do something so heinous? And we're talking about radical ones not most of them? Because we got to divide this here. This is not all the people that are part of the Muslim religion. What would you say about that? Yeah,
Kelly James Clark
I so I work in religion and violence, as well. I don't talk about in this book. And let me just take the the leader of 911 I think it was Mohammed atta I think it's his name. And he wrote wrote this tribute to ally before he went and killed himself. So he wrote this beautiful tribute. And everyone said, Oh, he attacked because he was a Muslim. But while he was training for in the flight school in Florida, every night, he'd go out to a bar and get drunk, he snorted cocaine. His girlfriend was a stripper. He lived with her when she broke up with them. He snuck into her house, and she had a couple of kittens. And he tore the kittens into little pieces, and distributed his body parts all over the house. And I just can't find my cell thinking that he was really a very good Muslim. And, and but what he did was he wrote a document that tried to show he was, and he was just trying to cover up. In fact, he was yeah, he was trying to show to people that he was better than he was right? Reputation Management. And, of course, he didn't think people would know the secrets of his life. And I think that he, they attacked, mostly because they felt powerless. And they felt an injustice had been done to retribution kind of degree. And it was retribution. Not and it wasn't. It wasn't over religion, primarily, it was primarily over all sorts of things that happened in the Middle East, that that make people really angry, the number one motivator for mostly young men, if they're going to be radicalized is a sense of isolation, a sense of powerlessness, and a sense of injustice that they're going to right. Yeah.
Greg Voisen
And, you know, when you look at whether it's Ukraine, and at this point, Russia, and the war, and you look at the number of young men that are recruited by Russia, to fight in that war, you only have to follow the money, because they've been repressed so long that they can somebody can pay them some money to go fight in a war that they were impoverished before. And now they're getting paid to do something. Yeah, oh, well, who's going to take into account that I'm going to lose my life in the process of this? I mean, it's, it's really just almost totally diabolical. When you look at the scheme of, you know how that war is going in? The there's no reason for it at all. But back to your book, you discuss this destructive power of fear in relation to love. Can you elaborate on how overcoming fear this is a key one can lead to a deeper interpersonal and interfaith relationship, because you've mentioned fear now, five or six times. And I my sense is that, however, people are perceiving fear. It's normally a perception that's distorted. Yeah, normally.
Kelly James Clark
Yeah, I think that's right. Fear creates enemies when they're not there. Right? People, people can exploit our fears. I think most most of our so called enemies aren't really our enemies. I came to learn that 99.999% of Muslims don't want to kill us, and aren't terrorists and are a lot like you and me. So, coming to learn that I'm semi embarrassed to even say it now. But I have found in all my travels around the world, with Muslims, Christian Jews, atheists, agnostics, Buddhists, Hindus, Dallas, Confucianism, it's pretty much everybody is the same as everybody else. They, they want to live in peace, they want a better life for their children. They want their children to get educated, they want to sleep at night, they don't have to worry about being on their head or them dropping bombs on someone else's head. That's the way most people are are like, and so then we, we generate these fears of these people who are just like us, you know, they're not killers. Some of their leaders can move them to kill, by preying on their fears, and our leaders can respond in fear to them, and it's a pretty it's a really deadly historical cycle. There's just no doubt about it.
Greg Voisen
Well, it's it's I think, it's I just doing an interview with a gentleman and his book is called open. And I remember him saying, Look, we become so divisive as a result of our beliefs around things we see on the internet. But, you know, in a hand he used an example where he himself had become completely convinced that anybody associated with the NRA was a bad person. Because of all of the gun, the shootings, but what he decided to do, and here's an interesting thing is he said, I was gonna go learn how to shoot a gun and see who the people were, because he never picked up a gun in his life. And he was surprised as he took on this journey, to go out to the gun range and learn about the people and the reasons as to why they were learning how to shoot guns, that they weren't that much different from him. Right? They did have other fears, but they were human beings with reasons that they had for that. And I think this goes around your narratives that you weave in, in the personal anecdotes and reflections. You have these personal and how your personal experiences meaning those personal experiences I just brought up, actually shaped your understanding of love and faith. Because we all have personal experiences that we carry with us that certainly shape our understanding of what love and faith is. What did you find out?
Kelly James Clark
Yeah, I want to say that just so your audience knows for sure that I'm a philosopher and I love arguments. And I think arguments are nearly totally useless. The what has been most transformative to me was not an argument there was a another person. And they were encounters surprising encounters that I had with people who are different from me. And my very first one that I write about in the book as I I was a conservative Protestant, fundamentalist and, and all the way through college, I was like that and I thought all Catholics were going to hell. I had arguments while Catholics were going to hell and I took them course from the Reformation and I, I had all sorts of reasons and data and history and, and then I went to Notre Dame, which is a mistake for people who think Catholics are going to hell, and I don't recommend it, you know, the premier Catholic University in the United States. And I started to meet a lot of Catholics. And I wasn't argued out of this, I just got to a point where I just couldn't believe they were all going to hell, I just thought these are really good people who are doing the best that they can to try to understand reality, and had similar experiences with Muslims. Getting to know Muslims is as fritton Muslims who friended me. I'd like to say that I was the great friend or here and I was the great lover here, but, but I thought, like intellectually, Muslims, Christians and Jews to try to get along a little better. But I wasn't really persuaded of, I guess the full humanity and sincerity of Muslims, tilts, some of them friended me. And the friendships are transformative. And I, again, I love arguments, but nothing was more important to me than people who friended me. Well,
Greg Voisen
you know, it, it is something that happens, and I don't think we intentionally do it. But many of us are not exposed to huge amounts of diversity. So you say, Well, what community do you live in? Do you have Hispanic? Do you have black people, the Muslims? Do you have Jews? Do you have whatever you do, but you're not really looking for it? You're like, you know, you're kind of going on with your life. And you you don't really realize how biased you become. Yeah, right. And I have a question for you.
Kelly James Clark
Just say one quick thing to that. Yeah. I have a friend who teaches at a seminary in town. And he had his seminary students who are mostly like in their 30s. Now they're not they don't go to seminary right away. Lots of times. Anyway, he asked them to keep track of, for one week, of every single person they met. And he had, I don't know, a dozen students, 16 students, and they came back and all 16 had only met people who are who believed like them had the same color skin. They there's a phone book, that's the Christian phonebook. So they, if your car needed to repair, you go to a Christian prayer repairment if you need bread, you go to the Christian bakery. Their kids go to Christian schools, they go to Christian youth leagues. So for one whole week, they never met anyone who was different from them. And I don't think that's unusual. And what that means is that if you think that compassion for people who are different from you is a good thing for the flourishing of the world. And you need the courage to step out of your comfort zone.
Greg Voisen
And yeah, it's a it's it's really a dichotomy. I know, I do work with the homeless. And frequently when I go out, I have to shift my perspective about, you know, well, who are these people that I'm giving a gift card to when? And how did they get here? And it's interesting how many times when you're paying more attention to who they are, than versus you by asking questions that are open ended around, how did you get out on the street, how immediately, they actually just didn't lie, they become alive, right? And you see them just as souls, walking the planet, who had a different course or direction that hit them, and usually financially or through drugs or whatever it might be. But the reality is the reality, you still have to show the compassion. And so, you know, in the process of writing this book, what I think some of the listeners might want to know where what are some of the theological, theological challenges you faced, especially regarding views that might diverge within the same fate? You know, right? Yes, that's what we're talking about here.
Kelly James Clark
So, so I learned this, there is no such thing as Judaism or like a stereotypical, stereotypical Jew, there is no such thing as Christianity. There are multiple Christianity's we all know this. We all know there's Protestants and Catholics and Eastern Orthodox and Baptists and Baptists that St. Most Baptists are not right enough. And so then there's Second Baptist and third Baptists, and the list could go on and on. And so there's so much theological diversity in every tradition, I had to figure out how to write about what I thought was common to the traditions. And I decided that I was just going to stick with their most sacred texts. So the Hebrew Bible, the New Testament, and the Koran, I use some a few other texts, but it doesn't take long before people start to diverge. And then when people start to diverge, even within a tradition, they start to fear and sometimes even hate one another. So I had to find within two, I had to figure out how within traditions, to cultivate a kind of common language. And I also had let the religion speak for themselves. So I think Islam has a really different view from the, from the Christian tradition, and maybe a better view, honestly, than the Christian tradition on love of enemy. Because what I argue is that love, the highest form of love, and each of these traditions is the raging fire of love that we feel something in our hearts, we don't just do things for people, you could go out to your homeless people and give them a bunch of cards, you could do something good, but you don't love them until you start to care for them. Right. And that takes a lot of work. And, and I could hear in your voice, how you work to create that compassion for them. That's the highest form of love. But it's really hard to have that for enemies.
Greg Voisen
Well, I actually, you know, I, I remind them of the things that they're doing because of my personal growth background. Like when I approach somebody, and the guy round him has six beer cans, and is staggering around and I'm saying, you know, this is not good for your life, nor are you going to get anywhere. And I'm actually preaching to agree, I'm the undercover evangelist. But I think it's important they hear because they don't hear that all the time. They're not being influenced other than the people around them who are other homeless people. Right. And so I think it's good for them to get a little bit of dose of medicine from me, who walks up and says, Hey, I want to help you. And there's no strings attached here. But I am observing something about your behavior, which if you really want to make a difference in your life, you need to change because you're not going to get anywhere the way you're going right now. And that's frequently my message. So what is one key message or insight that you hope readers will take away from the book raging fire, and they literally could, you know, right now just pull into their DNA and really become a better person as a result of reading your book.
Kelly James Clark
So I hope that they're inspired to, to, to fuel the flames of the fire for people who are different from them. So I hope everyone takes that away that and that you're you understand traditions that are different from yours. Better if you're an atheist, and you had really negative views of Muslim As Christians and Jews, I hope that you understand them and their traditions better. This is a book I wrote for everybody, but what can they do? What can they take away? I, I argue in the book that God may so love the world, but we finite creatures love, usually just one person at a time. And, and so I say that people should go out of their houses and walk down the street, because in the United States, it's not uncommon to have a, a Muslim, Jew or a Christian, a black person, a Hispanic, somebody who's really different from you, that you may fear. And I say get out of your house and walk down and knock on the door and invite them for a cup of coffee.
Greg Voisen
That's a best thing you could have said, you know, I, I find that people's outpouring of compassion frequently results as another person has a need. And they help that they hope they can help that person with their need. And I was listening to a story on CBS Sunday Morning, just this last one. And little girl seven years old down in Alabama loses her money, her mother was only 29. And so they were their grandmother. And I say this story for this reason, because this talks about the outpouring of compassion. So she set up a lemonade stand because they had no money for a gravestone. This was anybody wants to go watch this, you'll be crying when you're done. At the end. There was no money for a gravestone they didn't have the money for her mother's gravestone. So she was raising money through selling lemonade to buy the gravestone for a mother. And they didn't say exactly how her mother died. And it doesn't make any difference. What makes a difference is the impact she made on so how many lives she not only in this short period of time, she goes, Well, I actually got $300 for one cup of lemonade. And in she kind of giggles, and she then said, and so at the end of the story, the reporter says she raised $15,000, where her little lemonade stand. Oh, and by the way, all that money is gonna go to support her education. Because the company that makes the gravestones decided to donate the gravestone, so they didn't have to buy the gravestone for Mother's plot, right. And I was thinking to myself, What a great story of compassion when you saw all these people coming, that they videotaped giving $1 $10 $100 Because they really loved the story, which was one of how do I help this little girl who's really hurting inside, they were all hugging her, they were giving her love, they're giving her compassion. And that brings me to this. You know, you have to have over the time of writing this book has been out there a bit. Had some critics, or significant responses to your work that have prompted you to think differently about what I'm gonna say any of the topics in the book? Have you had people dialog interface with you, Kelly, that have shifted your perspective about maybe some of the things you wrote in the book?
Kelly James Clark
Yeah, so I think I've sort of indicated some of the shifts that I've had, since I've been working, you know, for about 10 years on, bring it with projects that bring Muslims, Christians and Jews together. And I've had all sorts of things that have changed because I had so many biases when I came into this. I'll just tell you, I'll just tell you one story i i went to an interfaith dinner at a local mosque, and each table at the dinner at the mosque had some a member of the mosque that was there, and they were supposed to get going in a conversation. So it was the, the Muslim and then the rest of the table were Christians. And he asked is this long? Do you think Islam is more about love or about justice and all the Christians went around? We all said it was about justice, including me like I thought, as long as there's only about getting into the afterlife, the if you get if over 50% of your deeds are good, you get in if they're not, you get out, you're out. So and then he started to say no, I think it's love. And then he tried to explain why and all of us kept interrupting him and tried to tell him why he was wrong. And I think he was right. I didn't think it at the time. But the thing that mainly moved me or began to move me to think differently It was him. He was so patient and kind and he was compassionate. He embodied compassion. That's the thing that made me think, Alright, next time I'm going to do something different when I talk to somebody about their tradition, I'm going to listen. And how
Greg Voisen
novel is that?
Kelly James Clark
I know, I know. Anyway, and I'm just, I'm just not going to interrupt that. Now, when I do interfaith events, you know, with 50, academics. I say, you cannot tell anyone else what they believe that you have to listen and let them tell you what you believe. And anyway, that started me thinking in a whole new way about I began to think that what if Islam really is about love, and not about justice, and it got me to look at the Koran and Islamic tradition in a really different way. And it got me to look at Islam not as a militant, or even a military religion, because there is a lot of there's a lot of bias in the West that Islam built its empire by the sword. And I had to overcome that bias to see what what was the prophet really trying to teach people a long time ago to get out their sword and spread Islam by threat of death. And I just, I came to learn No, he was trying to get people to to be compassionate towards people who are different from them. Well, it's
Greg Voisen
interesting you say this, because you're talking about Christian Christian faiths, Muslim faiths. Yeah. And, and I'm, as you're talking, I'm reflecting on certain little stories, but oh, one, you know, you obviously, you had Gandhi, you had Mother Teresa, you've got the Dalai Lama, you've got all of these leaders and faith, Desmond Tutu. And it goes on and on and on. But I remember a statement made about Mother Teresa. Somebody went to her and said, Hey, will you march against this, whatever it was, and she says, If I can't march for something, I will never march against anything, right. And I and I look at that. And it's like, you know, if we had more people that thought that way, right? And just said, I'm not against, because it's this against SNESs, that puts the wall up between us that we are we're like, I'm against it. No, I can be, I can choose to be for it. But I don't have to be vocal enough to go out or outrageous enough to say, Well, I'm against that. And that brings me to your findings and experiences. I'm glad you had that transformation at that interfaith event, because that was an epiphany for you. What practical advice would you give the individuals as we sum up our interview, looking to foster interfaith understanding and harmony in their own communities? Because this is like, the quintessential question, right? It's like, okay, we've talked a lot about this, but am I gonna go down now to a Muslim mosque, and say, Hey, I'm here. And I love you guys. And do whatever? Probably not, right? No. But we're going to stay in places. And here's the thing, you've said this. we're creatures of safety. And so we stay in zones of state safety. We don't go out of a comfort zone. What? How would you help us ease out of our safety zone, into an uncomfortable zone, to allow us to experience something new in that discomfort that we get joy and pleasure from as a result of doing such thing?
Kelly James Clark
Yeah. So you've, you've put exactly why this is so hard to do. I mean, it's not that natural for us, because we, what's natural is for us to hang around people that look and act just like us, right? That's totally natural, easy to do. I will say, in most communities in any fairly large city. There are interfaith groups that are trying to bring people together. And Grand Rapids is a medium sized city in the United States. And there are there's an Abrahamic dinner once a year there's the mosques do interfaith events where they invite people I went one time to a Sikh Si, que Yes,
Greg Voisen
yeah, they really pronounced a Sikh, I was in Australia and we were waited on by some Sikhs and I It's interesting. They're philosophy. They're so compassionate. I know. There are people, I'm, I don't know many of them. But I did run in the course of my life, my 69 years so far, I handful. And I'm gonna say this I'm probably spouting off here. And I don't really care what other people think so much about what I'm going to say, I've never found a more compassionate, loving, understanding group of people with so much tolerance and love. And I'm like, Whoa, do you know much about the Sikh religion? And I go, No, I don't, I really should learn a lot more about these people.
Kelly James Clark
And one of my so I came to the same conclusion. And probably for the same reason that I knew almost nothing about Sikhism. And these people served as food. They were engineers and doctors, and they were unbelievably highly educated people. And they're serving food. And somebody gave a talk that night, they had some special speaker and I thought he was really boring. But I was really moved by being served dinner by the Sikhs. And then I found out that there are places in India where they serve like half a million meals a day in different Sikh communities. So anyone is welcome. The door is open, they don't ask any questions, anyone can come in and get food, and they do it. So So anyway, these events are all over there. They're all over, they're worth going to. But my my big advice would be just look around your neighborhood, and have everyone over for a coffee in your backyard or something like that. And, and just start to learn about people who are different from you?
Greg Voisen
Well, I think your advice is really we have to embrace the discomfort before we can grow. Yeah. And in that means you getting in your car, whether it's electric or gas, and driving down somewhere to an interfaith group, and introducing yourself and shutting up and listening to the stories, right. And I could not be more pleased than the outcome of this interview. Because if that's all that we encouraged as a result, which was to get a lot of listener to like, hey, these two guys made sense over the last 45 minutes, I think maybe what I'll do is go check out an interfaith thing, or I'll go make a couple of calls, or I'll examine how I could do this a bit more comfortably for myself, whatever it might be, I think we need to break the mold of the kind of people we always hanging around with. Yeah, because they're always the same. If you really look at it through your life, you're pretty much hanging around a lot of the same people most of the time, and you're not going to grow both spiritually, emotionally, mentally, intellectually, until you get to experience it, and you're perfect. I'm going to tell all my listeners, please go to Kelly James Clark's website, and I'm going to give the website again out here for everyone. It's pretty simple. It's just Kelly James Clark, three first names and it's Wix wi x site.com. There you can learn about his blogs, his projects, the books, his publications, everything's there and he's prolific writer. It's been a pleasure having you on inside personal growth and having this dialogue about raging fire and most importantly, you know what we can do to change our behavior to make this world a better place.
Kelly James Clark
Thank you get Greg and I hope everybody flames a little fire in their hearts for people who are different from them. Well,
Greg Voisen
and I always usually at the end of these say Namaste now I know in the end, because I felt follow Self Realization fellowship, all those people get that but this is only I see the God knew that sees the God in me. Thank you for that. Kelly.
Kelly James Clark
My name My pleasure. Thanks, Greg.
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Inside Personal Growth with Greg Voisen · Podcast 1112: Taking Care of Business with the Enneagram with R. Karl Hebenstreit, Ph.DIn a recent episode of Inside Personal Growth, I had the pleasure of interviewing Karl Hebenstreit, PhD, an executive coach, author, and international speaker known for his expertise in human resources and organizational development. We delved into his book, “Taking Care of Business with the Enneagram,” a transformative guide on how the Enneagram can be a powerful tool for improving workplace dynamics and fostering personal growth. You can find more about Karl and his work at his website Perform and Function, and the book is available on Amazon.
The Enneagram, as Karl explains, is a profound system that delves deeper than other personality assessments like Myers-Briggs or DISC. While these tools focus on behaviors, the Enneagram explores core motivations and drivers, offering a more comprehensive understanding of oneself and others. This depth is crucial in enhancing emotional intelligence, as it helps individuals recognize their own motivations and empathize with the diverse perspectives within their teams.
Karl’s journey with the Enneagram began during his PhD program at the California School of Professional Psychology, where he was introduced to the system by Helen Palmer, a pioneer in bringing the Enneagram into the modern psychological framework. Since then, Karl has utilized the Enneagram extensively in his career, particularly in human resources, to create more inclusive and effective organizational cultures.
One of the most compelling aspects of our discussion was how the Enneagram aids in sense-making within teams and organizations. By understanding the nine different Enneagram types, leaders can appreciate the various perspectives each type brings to the table. This holistic view enables better decision-making, enhances communication, and fosters an inclusive environment where every team member feels valued.
Karl emphasized the Enneagram’s role in promoting diversity, equity, and inclusion (DEI). In today’s business landscape, where DEI initiatives are paramount, the Enneagram stands out as a tool that transcends traditional diversity markers such as race, gender, and age. Instead, it focuses on the diversity of thought and perspective, encouraging organizations to value and integrate different worldviews. This approach not only mitigates biases but also enriches the organizational culture by ensuring a more comprehensive and inclusive decision-making process.
For those in human resources or leadership roles, Karl’s book provides practical insights on how to leverage the Enneagram for recruitment, engagement, and retention. Understanding the core motivations of different Enneagram types can significantly enhance these processes, addressing the current challenges of high turnover rates and workplace dissatisfaction. By tailoring communication and motivational strategies to align with the Enneagram types, organizations can create a more harmonious and productive work environment.
In addition to its applications in HR and DEI, the Enneagram is a valuable tool for managing change and fostering innovation. Karl shared how leaders can use the Enneagram to navigate organizational changes by addressing the concerns and motivations of each type. This approach not only facilitates smoother transitions but also empowers employees to embrace change and contribute to the company’s growth and innovation.
Overall, my conversation with Karl Hebenstreit highlighted the Enneagram’s transformative potential in business settings. By fostering a deeper understanding of human motivations and enhancing emotional intelligence, the Enneagram can lead to more effective, inclusive, and innovative organizations. To explore this further, I encourage you to read “Taking Care of Business with the Enneagram” and visit Karl’s website for more resources.
Thanks and happy listening!
You may also refer to the transcripts below for the full transciption (not edited) of the interview.
Interview Transcipt -Not EditedEmailDownloadNew TabGreg Voisen
Welcome back to Inside Personal Growth. This is Greg Voisen, the host of Inside Personal Growth. And joining us from the desert near Palm Springs. For all of you who know this California territory is Karl, he even straight. He's a PhD. And he has a new book out. It's not exactly new, but it's close to new. And he's got another new one coming out that we're going to talk about too. But it's The How and Why: Taking Care of Business with the Enneagram. Karl, good day to you, how you doing?
R. Karl Hebenstreit
I'm doing great, Greg, how are you?
Greg Voisen
I'm awesome. And it's, you know, the Enneagram is one of these mystery things that just say, well, are people in business paying attention or not? Are they using it or not? In some places, it's been well adopted, adapted and adopted. In other places, people aren't so familiar with it. But we're going to date set our intention today, so that with your expertise in this area that we give them at least the information they need to do to consider it. And that's the best we can do. So, I want to let the listeners know something about your background, because this is one of your expertise. He's an executive coach, author, international speaker, human resource and organizational development professional with 25 plus years of global experience in biotech, healthcare, telecommunications, high tech, pharmaceutical and real estate services industries, internationally, motive motivated high energy systems, thinker, efficient, conscientious customer focus, action oriented, all those adjectives that you want to know he's got them all strengths include building relationships at all levels, fostering and integrating collaborative environments, and leading and motivating others to realize their full potential, which is why he's on inside personal growth. Well, it's a pleasure having you on and for those of you who want to learn more about Karl, go to www.perform p-e-r-f-o-r-m and function.com. That's his actual website. And you can also find him on LinkedIn. And we'll put a link to the LinkedIn for everybody as well. Well, you know, this book is interesting. It's got some great grass in it's got some great charts, it's got, it's really loaded, if people really want to know about the anagram. And it introduced it. Like I said, this actually introduces people to this in the business context. So can you explain how you first came across it? And its potential in organizational development? I not certain maybe it was one of your classes in the university?
R. Karl Hebenstreit
Believe it or not, it was yes, yeah, very astute observation or prediction there. So, it definitely I knew nothing about the Enneagram. And I would like to say that I came across the NT and I've been studying it since the last century, because it really was the last century when I started my PhD program at what was then called California School of Professional Psychology, and is now merged and called aligned International University. And they had an organizational psychology program. And up until that point, I was always working full time in human resources. And I was going to school at night. So, my masters and my PhD were at night going to school. And one class, it was just a class, it wasn't even an entire semester was a class that was part of a class that was going for the entire semester. I was very fortunate that the professor had this friend, whose name was Helen Palmer, we didn't know the students and didn't know anything about her. And Helen Palmer, if anyone has been looking at the history of how the Enneagram has really come into popular culture, if you want to look at it that way or into the popular psyche. Helen Palmer is really one of the first people that really started writing down the Enneagram because up until that point, it's an ancient system. It's an ancient model and framework, and people were only relating it to each other. They were only speaking into each other was only taught verbally. And so it was really, I don't want to say taboo but almost a taboo to write it down. And so up until that point, she was the first person to actually write down what people were learning from about from Enneagram teachers about the Enneagram and so she came into our class. And she introduced it. And just I'm sure that you're about an hour and a half long, maybe three hour long class, I think it was there were there were three hour long classes then. So I don't think she was there the full time. And she introduced us to it through one of the books from David Daniels, which was the essential Enneagram. And we had these nine paragraphs that we read, and we were supposed to select which one spoke most to us, which resonated most to us. And all of us were in there reading it and looking at it.
Greg Voisen
And it kind of lit your fire unsure, because it seems like you're the kind of person that would get into it. And I know, we've had a couple of other folks on the show speaking about the Enneagram. And it is a complex system. And it a lot of people are unfamiliar, only with the anagram. How would you describe its basic principles and its applicability to the business world? Because it's like, okay, I look at the anagram. And people might even put it in that area of like, well, are you doing my astrological reading? If you know what I mean, because I think some HR people would, would might say that right. And so kind of clarify it for us. So, people aren't out in left field.
R. Karl Hebenstreit
So most people are familiar with some of the other assessment tools that are out there. They're called personality assessments like Myers Briggs, or disc, or even leadership circle, or Thomas Killman, for conflict and all these different instruments that are out there. And the difference between the Enneagram and those instruments is that those instruments are about behaviors. And the Enneagram actually goes down to the level of motivation or driver. So if we understand ourselves, what it has been our driving force for our entire lives, and will continue to be our driving force for the rest of our lives, and then realize that not everyone else has the same motivation, and all the different situations that we're dealing with, then we start to really increase our emotional intelligence. Because we're doing the self awareness component, we're doing the empathy for how other people are looking at the world and perceiving the world and what's driving them. And then taking it even one more step further. What can we learn from that? How can we integrate that into our own? Well, just overall ability to perceive the world so I can we integrate into our own worldview. So that's the way I would describe it. It's really a framework that helps people identify for motivations, their own core motivations and those of their teams, their direct reports, their leaders, once we know that we now know how to better understand them and work better with them.
Greg Voisen
It is there it is in for my listeners, I'll make a notation because I want you to listen to if you want to go even deeper back in November of 2009. I did a podcast on the essential anagram with David Daniels. And that was a really fascinating interview I actually just looked it up and it it basically saying any as Greek for nine and Graham means that figure have something written. So the nine patterns is based in explicit perpetual filter and associated driving emotional energy. So do definitely you might people want to go familiarize themselves go all the way back to 2009. In my podcasts, he was one of my first guys. I don't know if he's even still alive anymore.
R. Karl Hebenstreit
No...
Greg Voisen
It's okay. Yeah, okay. You know, you mentioned the importance of sensemaking how does the Enneagram contribute to sense making within teams and organizations because that's really where we need it.
R. Karl Hebenstreit
So, first of all, it helps with sense making for yourself. It's understanding where you're coming from and what you're focusing on what your your drivers and areas in your perspective, what's that focus on. And then the reality is that there are eight other perspectives or lenses or worldviews who would help make sense of the situation to make real sense of the situation. Because if you think about it, when we are only looking at the world through our own lens, it's only a 40 degree sliver. And it's an it's a bias, it's the biased way of looking at the world through what's helped us in our past to be successful. And that's, that's what's ingrained our Enneagram type. So, sense making is improved, because now you're looking at the world through these eight other lenses as well, you're, you're taking off the one lens that you normally use, and you're putting on a different lens and a different one, and then the other one, another one. So that was that's what helps you get a better understanding of what's really going on through all these different lenses and perspectives. So when we do that for ourselves, and then we also leverage our team members who may have different perspectives, we are really getting a better view and sense of the world and making better sense of the world because we're understanding it better.
Greg Voisen
And it is, it does give people that ability to look at it from a new perspective, and to see personalities that you're dealing with inside of these organizations in a new way, so that you can adjust the way in which you communicate the way in which you communicate better. Look, you were in HR all those years, the key is communications, highly effective communications, and communications, where you are sensitive to someone else's feelings in the way in which they're coming from. So that's recruitment.
R. Karl Hebenstreit
And that's that it's also about inclusivity. I mean, we're talking a lot about diversity, inclusion, equity justice right now. And this is really a tool to help drive that agreed that because exactly what you're saying, we are acknowledging we are inviting, we are seeing the value of these other perspectives that are equally as valuable as our own and inviting them and bringing them in.
Greg Voisen
Yeah, it's it's really an interesting study. And I think, you know, I had Lawrence Hillman on here, and archetypes at work. And again, for all of my listeners, another great podcast in 2020, done with the Lawrence, he is the son of the famous Hillman psychologist. And, you know, when you really look at archetypes, and you look at the Enneagram, you really get the picture, the picture. And in recruitment, engagement and retention. They're all critical elements of HR that you've worked in. Can you elaborate on how the Enneagram types can enhance the process? Because today, more than ever, we're seeing greater levels of turnover. We're seeing highest levels of dissatisfaction in the workplace. We're seeing all kinds of things we say for generations working in one business here today, generational gap differences, communication differences. So tell us how this Enneagram across all of these areas could help somebody really realize what's going on?
R. Karl Hebenstreit
Yeah, so it's great that you bring up the point about generational differences. And the Enneagram is the great equalizer, because regardless of generations, we'd still see these nine Enneagram types of play. It's it's generation agnostic, it's it's the it's really the human condition, the Enneagram really is there for the human condition, regardless of any diversity, other diversity that you may have generation, ethnic race, whatever. The so when I was first introduced to it, as we talked about in that earlier story, that's what hit me that what hit me was that, wow, we are not using the insights and the knowledge that we can get from the Enneagram to really help attract, retain and motivate, engage every single person. That's an organization. In fact, our traditional processes, programs, incentives, reward systems are really only geared towards our types, three, sevens and eights. And that's where we reward to become leaders in organizations. So when I started seeing that, I was thinking Hold on a second. This is how we can help organizations in becoming better becoming more inclusive becoming able to really pull out these perspectives that are missing him to give them voice rather than just these couples that we just keep focusing on. And so that's where I decided to do my PhD thesis on this.
Greg Voisen
So well you did And I'm going to show this I don't think my listeners can actually see this. But in chapter 11, we just talked about team building, right? You actually took the nine types of the anagram and correlated them to all of these other areas here, like people are talking about disc, the MBTI, all of these things. And I think it's really fascinating how you find, I think I'm an ENFP, or E and F, whatever I am, I don't even remember what it is. But my point is, your
R. Karl Hebenstreit
J for the last one.
Greg Voisen
Yes. So, but my point is, is that if people really want to take a deep dive into this, right, look, I'm gonna hold this book up again, definitely go get Karl's book. Because if you're in HR, or you're somebody who's trying to figure out the personality of people, this is going to help you. The other thing is, it helps in decision making and innovation. So decision making in innovation are really quite challenging. That's a huge area today, if you're not innovating, you're probably dying. Your book suggests that the Enneagram provides a natural inclusive framework for empowerment at all levels. Right? So the key here would be Hey, I got a company that has to innovate. How so? How do I how does that work?
R. Karl Hebenstreit
So a lot of companies struggle with how do we empower employees, and it really comes down to their culture, if their culture is disempowering them, how can we create a culture that really is open to everyone's perspectives, and allowing people to experiment and innovate without any fear that if they fail, that something bad is going to happen to them. And so many times it does, even if it happened many, many years ago to one person, that story is going to be repeated. And that's going to be there as an artifact and continuation for the rest of that cultures, company sales history. So it's really important that the leaders create this culture of openness and, and inclusion. Where what I've found is when I take the nine different Enneagram styles, and I create different questions around them to say, Well, what's going to be most relevant to your company, your organization and its culture, and helping to really empower your employees to take responsibility and not fear that if anything goes wrong, that you're going to have their back. So that's, that's the critical component that if anything does go wrong, and and things will go wrong, that's the whole point of innovation, we're experimenting, we're learning. And if something goes wrong, then we learn from that, and we reapply that into the future and come up with an even better product. So if we can provide this rubric of questions, and if they want to use all nine questions, that's great if they only want to select a couple of them, because that's really supports the culture of the organization, that's wonderful. If they just give carte blanche to the employees to say, as long as you make sure that you're addressing five out of these nine, that's great. But it's if you look at it from the perspective of what's the right thing to do in this situation, according to our values, our organization's values, our mission, our direction that we're going in, and then that the type one right, that's type one the energy around that the type two energy we around, what's the impact on our stakeholders out? Is it helping with connections or relationships? Is it helping to connect? Or is it detracting from that? The type three energy we're at? What about our metrics, our goals? How is this helping us to achieve our metrics and our goals? What about our brand and our reputation? How is that helping to continue that? So that's all the three insights, the type four would be about uniqueness? How do we create this unique maybe it's a niche, maybe it's a, maybe you can get a patent from it, maybe you can make it beautiful, all the force stuff around around that energy, the type five would be all about, let's look at this objectively, what's there? Is there evidence? Is there data? Is there research that's been done on this? Should this succeed? If we go forward with it? Type six then brings in well, what happens if it doesn't succeed? What's our backup plan? What's our contingency plan? How do we make sure that we will succeed? Like taking into those things into account as well? For Type seven? It's, well think about think big. What's the vision? How is this going to help us grow? How is this going to help us expand? How's it gonna help us go into other areas? Like be fun and exciting? The type eight is about your own purview and your scope of authority? Do you have the scope of authority to do this? Should someone else be doing this? Should you be working with someone else to do this? Who can execute this to make this happen? And type nine is how does this fit within the whole ecosystem? How does this all make sense? So if people are considering all nine of those perspectives and questions, and thinking about those in depth, they will definitely make the right decision number one, and number two, that's going to help them be more empowered and to note that they're making the right decision that they thought about things. And then if something still goes wrong, even though they've made, they've thought through this, in this very deliberate way that their leaders will have their backs?
Greg Voisen
Well, what I do know is you've done this all across the United States, and have you done it globally around the world, yeah. And the world. And you've gone into companies and use this Enneagram, to help people actually create better communications become more innovative, build better teams, stronger teams, all of the things that they want to do. And I'm going to, again, perform and function is where you want to go to we'll put a link up to that so that you can reach out and talk with Karl, I mean, I'd be more than happy to speak with you. We want to bring him into your company to do something. So you know, I said about five minutes ago, communications of backbone in your organization, you tie communication styles, to the Intagram type? How does understanding this foster better? You just went through all nine to foster better communications within teams? Because I'm sure there are people, team leaders listening to this podcast or HR executives that listen to this podcast, and they're saying, Hey, I've never used the Enneagram. Yeah.
R. Karl Hebenstreit
So whenever we communicate, people are focusing on different things. In the same communication, someone can be, could read the same paragraph, the same chapter, the same whatever, what people are gonna be focusing on different things in that communication. And then type ones focus is going to be focused on how does this align Is this the right thing to do is is the does it align with my values. So again, you can go through the whole nine different energies, and you can see where the focus is, the type one might be focusing on what's the there's, there's an error here, something doesn't align, right? It's not the there's a grammatical error, there's a, you know, there used the wrong word, they whatever it is, that's going to be something that's going to, that's really going to stick for the type one, and maybe even distract from the message. So if you have a message that is not perfectly communicated with grammar, or with with spelling, or if it's written, then that's going to be a distractor. And it's totally going to be distracted with type one, if it doesn't align with their own thinking or their own values. So if it's shown that there's a value statement to it, the alignment of their values, that's gonna be what's important to them. So each of the types is going to be focused on something else. Yeah. And some of the types are also going to be more geared towards No, I don't want the full details, just give me the high level overview, like our threes or sevens. And our eights are going to want that high level overview. Give me the executive summary. The fives, and the sixes might want more details, the ones might want some more detail too, because they're going to be focused on let's look at the congruence here. How is this going to
Greg Voisen
be you do does in the anagram? Is there labels for those like in archetypes, because they'll call them? The the. So for instance, the problem solver, the you know, there's all kinds of types. So what are the nine types, and what is the label that's associated with the one through the nine, I think people might like to know that because it's like, okay, I got a number in my head. But now if you give me a descriptor, I can really have some power behind this. So
R. Karl Hebenstreit
different schools are giving different names or labels or, or titles to these different types. So the one is usually known as the perfectionist or the reformer, or the strict perfectionist, and they're focused on doing the right thing. The type to the type, by the way, doing the right thing according to their own values, there are really a universal set of values. So if you have two different type ones that are working together, but they're looking at the world through different value structures, they're not going to get along, right, because they're each going to believe that they're doing the right thing according to their own sense of values. The Type Two is looked at as the helper or giver or the compassionate and helper, and they are geared towards the needs of others, helping others so they will achieve their worth by by being helpful to others and feeling loved by the accolades that they receive, and the thanks and appreciation that they receive for that help. The type three is all about goals. So they are the achievers. They are performers, and they're all about making sure that they get the goal and that they be that goal feeds into an image or a brand that they have of being the best at something. So that's the important goal for them the important focus for them. The type fours are romantics are artists. They're very empathic they they feel all the energy they feel other people's feelings, they feel their own feelings, and they are all about being unique, special, different and all authentic. So they're striving to authentic authenticity and being understood. That type. So those are our heart types, if you will look at that were feeling types or types twos or threes, or four or, or helpers givers are performers, achievers and our, our artists. So then we move into the thinking styles, which are five, six and seven are fives are observers or analysts, they're very much about being objective objectively looking to see all the different data that's out there and making it make sense, coming up with sense making models so they can predict what may happen. So they don't look foolish, and they think that they're prepared. Our sixes are our loyal skeptics, and they look at the world or process it through a lens of danger. They're looking at it and saying, what's the possible danger that can happen here? How can I prepare for it? How can I make sure that I will be successful if this dangerous thing happens? So they're looking at it from this this backup plan, contingency plan scenario planning. So that's what they're they're doing. And they want to be safe and secure and comfortable. Always looking for they're trying to they're when they want to basically be part of this tribe for safety. Our sevens are the opposite of the sixes, they're looking at things through a positive spin. What's the best case scenario? What's the vision? What are the connections that we can make? What are the opportunities we can take advantage of. So those are our visionaries, our epicures are adventurers. Then we move into the action styles, the eights, the nines, and the ones. So our type eight really are boss protectors, directors, generals, challengers, you can use that type of archetype archetype for them. And they're all about power control authority, justice, really protective of their people their circle, and really great at execution throughout, especially when brothers are type nines are mediators or peacekeepers, they're really good about seeing the whole picture, seeing how everything fits together, everything has equal value. And they just want to keep the peace. So that's what
Greg Voisen
we're all in one sense, what I understand as you've gone through the great descriptions of these, and actually put labels on them. We're not one of any one of them, we've got all these different personality types within us. That's not to say that we're schizophrenic, it's just to say that, that we have all of these within us, it's just when we call on them and how it shows up. And where it shows us. Right. So okay, so we have
R. Karl Hebenstreit
favorites, we have defaults, we have ones that are easier for us to access than others, right, we will have our core type, which tends to be our default. And that's the style that we're comfortable with, because it has helped us in the past. And I want to go back, we use the term labels, or titles, descriptors feel like oh, no, you're gonna put me in a box by putting in this label. But the reality is, you're already in this box, you've put yourself in this box. Yeah. So by realizing what box you're already in, and the other people already seeing and perceiving you as this, you're actually breaking out of that box. Because just like you're saying, we have all these nine energies accessible to us. And you're making, you're freeing yourself to be able to access the other eight styles that you're not as used to, or as comfortable accessing, because you're not focusing on those. So we do have access to all nine types, some of them are going to be much easier to access for us to access than others. And the learning is how can we access all nine of them in the appropriate situation?
Greg Voisen
So again, get this book, because this is the one that's going to tell you how to use this and reach out to Karl. Well, you know, look, one of the things that goes on inside of organizations, more than anything is change. And change management is often not just resisted by the organization, but obviously the organization is the people. And the people are the ones that resist change the most people don't like it. They rather just say status quo, because this is upsetting my applecart and I don't want to do it. Right. So your book suggests using the Intagram to navigate change? Yeah. Can you give an example of this and where you possibly used it as a way where you had a successful outcome as a result of this story? Yeah.
R. Karl Hebenstreit
So I consult with clients who go through, as you said, Change is the only constant right now it's everywhere. And organizations are constantly changing their structure to better align with client and stakeholder needs and customer needs. So just recently, there was an example where A major change was happening, organizational structural change and name change with the organization, leadership changes were going on. And I reminded the leaders about making sure that in their communications, because communication is talking about communication earlier, but communication is the key to helping people understand the concept of why is this change happening. And let's focus on what's important that you're, you're interested in finding out. So each of the Enneagram types is again, focused on something different, when something when something's happening, something's changing, each type is going to approach it differently, respond to it differently, be interested in different aspects of it, to see how it's going to work for them. So our we talked about our RS type sevens, which are epicures, or adventures, they're going to be interested in like, what you doors is this opening? Right? So they're gonna be a change, like, let's see what else I can do, like, exciting stuff is happening now. So boring thing that, you know, not that it's boring, but it's, it's known. So let's Well, I
Greg Voisen
think, I think look entrepreneurs in general, the founders of these companies, when you say this, it really just lit up a light bulb. You know, I've been a serial entrepreneur. And I'm curious, I'm always curious, I wouldn't do a podcast show like I'm doing right now in the 1100 Plus podcast, if I wasn't curious about what people are writing about, and how it can help other people, right. And I think that is for us, people like us, we say, Yeah, bring it on, you know, we we we want to see the change, we want to see the growth, we we want to embrace it, we want to see what will happen. And we'd like that, right? i And I so many people that I consult with are that way. But then there's these other business people that you wonder how they ever gotten business, because they're not curious at all. They just want to stay the course they don't want to change. You don't see them really growing their business that much. They're just stagnating. But this tool, I will tell everybody out there is very, very powerful, Karl, and I think that it's a great thing. Now, accountability in the workplace is another significant challenge. We are faced with it all the all the time. And you discuss this are a CI matrix and the accountability through the Intagram lens. Could you basically share a practical tip for leaders to enhance accountability using the Enneagram? Yeah,
R. Karl Hebenstreit
so RACI is an old tried and true proven methodology in project management and stands for responsible, accountable, consulted and informed sometimes they also add some extra, some extra letters like omitted, like explicitly know this person does not need to know anything about this at this point, they bring them in later, but there's no reason to get them involved at this point. Or support, maybe an add an s for support, this person is going to support someone, this person may be responsible for it, but the s person the support person will be supporting them in doing that. So it's just a way to be very explicit around the expectations. And by the way, that's probably a foreboding or joking about the explicit expectations book that's also coming out soon. But the wait to actually help people be clear about what's expected of them at each step of the way. Is it's really important for all the types for all the Enneagram types to know what what are the parameters? What are the guardrails? What are the expectations? What can they do? What can't they do? What are they expected to do? What's what's what are their? What is their performance going to be rated on? Right through the in this process flow or in this program, or in this? Whatever it is that you are, you're spelling out in the RACI matrix. So that's a way to make sure that clarity is is created. So that people are all on the same page about what the expectations are for each type, regardless of your time.
Greg Voisen
Yeah, it gets really messy. And you know, being a consultant inside of businesses, I still do it today. You find this, Hey, I've got a job description. Well, there's actually a lot of scope creep and all of our job descriptions, which then turn out to be, well, no, you're really expected to do this and that and this other thing. And then when you add the accountability to top of it, what happens to people is they're like, hey, you've got me stretched so thin and so far, I can hardly be accountable to anybody because you've added all these additional elements to the role that I have. And that's not what I really signed up for. Can we rejigger my job description i so that I can be accountable. And I think it's okay for people to ask HR of that as well. It's like, you know, it, I know it's a sensitive area, because the company believes they're getting more resources out of this person for the same amount of money, but at the same time, it's, it's really not that good. I know, multitasking just doesn't work. You can't be efficient. You know, and if you keep if you keep missing deadlines, it's because you're being distracted by either something that you're supposed to be doing over here that you didn't get done over there. Make sense? Yes.
R. Karl Hebenstreit
And and I'm going to go back to Everything old is new again. When I worked at Genentech, right before I started my own consulting company, it was fascinating to me to see how everyone was so excited about another matrix that we didn't discuss, but it's in the book as well. And it's, it's the one about So Stephen Covey is credited with creating it, because it's all about the importance and urgency of something. So to wrap things into, Is it urgent and important? Is it less urgent and important? Is it not important and urgent are enough so you plotters
Greg Voisen
also that that Eisenhower matrix?
R. Karl Hebenstreit
That's what it was created originally was rather than Eisenhower had this matrix and then Stephen Covey.
Greg Voisen
He borrowed it,
R. Karl Hebenstreit
made it more popular popularized it, how's that
Greg Voisen
is the seven habits of highly effective people it was in that book for all of you that are interested is because Stephen, Mr. Covey has been on the show. So go check out one of those podcasts if you want to listen to it. Exactly.
R. Karl Hebenstreit
So that's made a resurgence. Because it's true. And it's proven. It's you keep having scope creep, as you've mentioned, your job description? Yeah, they can, that's going to change. Things change all the time, organizational expectations change. However, your goals, which are based on your job description, that's what you'd probably have more direct control over than changing your job description. So you can have conversations with your manager, your leader and saying, Yeah, you've asked me to do these, these 30 things are now my top priority. But
Greg Voisen
but everybody seems to always in this is just a perception be caught in the important and urgent, not the, um, the versus the important and non urgent, right, which is really your thinking time, that's your time where you're going to progress. That's the time where you block time out on your calendar. That's a time where you innovate and you create something new. But we seem to all be chasing our acids, most of the time in that quadrant that really, we're supposed to be spending less time.
R. Karl Hebenstreit
Right. And that is one of the things by the way that I have recommended with my coaching clients is how do you create the strategic thinking time that you need to have to make sure that you're focusing on the right things? Right. So how do you block that time off on your calendar? Is it right for your workday? Is it after your workday? Is it on your drive in? Is it on your on your drive that whatever on your commute, whatever that may be? So how do you create that as well?
Greg Voisen
I personally think just from somebody who's had to juggle a calendar all my life like you as well, we all do. So I'm not speaking. But I know this is gonna sound so trite to so many people. But no is probably one of the most powerful words we could say. It's like, No, I don't have time for that today. No, I can't do that. Because otherwise, you're never going to have time for any of this stuff. Yes, you're literally going to be drawn by this person, that person, this person, that person, that person, whatever, and you won't get the things that you have valued as important done. And that brings me to this. Lastly, the book touches on the Intagram as a tool for diversity, equality and inclusion, work inclusion. How can organizations practically implement this for a more I'm going to call it inclusive culture because, you know, that is a important topic these days. And we're talking about diversity. That means every race, every nationality, every age difference gaps in you know, whether I'm a boomer or I'm a Gen XOR, or a Y or Z, you know, all of that's important. So how do we create in use the Intagram to have more inclusion across all of these matrices?
R. Karl Hebenstreit
That's a great question and I I'm gonna go back to earlier when I said this The great equalizer. It's the great equalizer because it's it's the most interesting and comprehensive way of looking at diversity because it's diversity of perspective. So if we, if we have, if we've gone to a certain school, and every single race, sexual orientation, heritage, gender, every every type of diversity was at that school, every single person thinks exactly the same way. Do we have diversity? Nope. Do we have? Do we have diverse ways of thinking because they're all thinking exactly the same way, no groupthink. Right. Now, if we're focusing on hiring, for diversity of perspective, regardless of what the person looks like, or what their heritage is, or anything that we have, that we consider the traditional diversity elements, right, we are automatically eliminating our bias. Because we're looking at thinking styles we're looking at, we're getting this diversity of perspective, it's really, truly going to give us the ability to access every single perspective in the world. And in the process, make sure that we have a diverse background of Heritage's that we're joining in as well. So we're eliminating our biases, we're truly eliminating our biases and trying to make sure that we're well, first of all, identifying what our biases is, because if anything, what our own four type is, and then not really integrating the other eight styles, then we're now we see what our own bias is. So how do we expand and open up our minds, to the diversity of perspective, and then make sure that we have that whole diverse population that we're also bringing in mirroring the diversity of our stakeholders, our clients, our customers. So doing that, and while
Greg Voisen
you're actually using the Enneagram, to look at people, as people, as much as that may sound like stupid instead of, hey, this person is trans or this person is black, or this person is Asian, or this person is that if you took all of those labels away and said, Here's what they are as people, right? Again, now, what I just said, maybe sounds, add, I made it sound easy, it's not. Because I do know that those biases exist, right? But the Enneagram will allow you to look at the person more as a person and take the label away from them, whether they're, you know, bisexual, homosexual, black, whatever, it doesn't matter doesn't, it doesn't matter, you need to remove that label. And I, I want to thank you for bringing that out. Because that's, you know, look, this book, people can go get it. And they literally can work with this, taking care of business with the INIA gram, and they're literally going to see that things are going to shift for them. And you've opened my eyes to ways that can happen. And I want to thank you for being on the show and spending time with me and our listeners, and having an opportunity to explore a new technique that would open up energy with inside of an organization, no, we talk about we want to raise our level of consciousness, the Enneagram is going to allow you to raise your level of consciousness. And also, I'm speaking from a spiritual side, it's going to move this whole vibratory kind of attunement. At what level do you vibrate as a person? You know, what are what are you drawing to you? What are you resisting? When you start to look at energy, energy is a big factor in this, right. And there's nothing mysterious about that. It's true. I've walked into boardrooms or businesses, and the energy of the whole business is just like, wow, it's like a black box. And you're like, how do people even work in this environment? Right? Because it is caustic and negative. And, you know, and then when you start to interview the people, you find out oh, my god, Tom did this and Mary did that. And it's, you know, it's just as big kind of pardon me cesspool of complaints and issues and you know, and you need to come in and be a light this book and Karl could be the light that will actually turn on and transform your company. So go to perform and function.com look Karl up, get his book, and he's got a new book coming out. So I'm gonna give you an operator Do you need a plug? The title of the new book because it doesn't come out till June 17. But we'll have Karl back on inside personal growth June 19. You said his birthday. What's the title of that book, Karl?
R. Karl Hebenstreit
It's called explicit expectations, explicit expectations, explicit expectations, The Essential Guide and toolkit of management fundamentals. So it's everything that you're expected to know as a manager, but no one ever told you. Well,
Greg Voisen
I love it explicit expectations for everyone. We'll have Karl back on inside personal growth to talk about the new book. I can't wait Karl, thanks for spending some time with us today. Just exposing us to the Enneagram again and again for my listeners. We'll put links up to the other Enneagram interviews that we have as well. So if you want to take a really really deep dive and learn more about this, you got Karl you got David, you got all these other people that have been on inside personal growth. Pleasure having you gone namaste to you have a blessed rest of your day.
R. Karl Hebenstreit
You too. Take care.
Greg Voisen
You too.
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Inside Personal Growth with Greg Voisen · Podcast 1111: Beyond Nutrition with Ryan KennedyOn the latest episode of Inside Personal Growth, I had the pleasure of interviewing Ryan Kennedy, a functional medicine practitioner, traditional naturopath, and board-certified clinical nutritionist. With his book “Beyond Nutrition: The Ultimate Cookbook for a Healthier, High-Quality Life” boasting 110 recipes, Ryan is dedicated to educating individuals on achieving optimal health through lifestyle and dietary changes.
Holistic Health: More Than Just Food
Ryan emphasizes that achieving health extends beyond just focusing on nutrition. He advocates for a holistic approach, considering various aspects of our daily lives. According to Ryan, “In addition to your nutrition, the foods that you’re consuming, you have your sleep, which I would argue is even more important than your nutrition.” He highlights the significance of factors such as movement, environment, stress management, and lab testing in maintaining overall health.
Fasting and Its Benefits
One of the major topics we discussed was fasting, a practice that Ryan highly recommends. He explains, “Humans have been doing some type of fasting for millennia, since the dawn of time.” Fasting helps the body in numerous ways, including improving insulin sensitivity and stabilizing blood sugar levels. Ryan advocates for intermittent fasting with a compressed eating window and suggests front-loading the fasting period, emphasizing the benefits of an early dinner.
Continuous Glucose Monitoring
Ryan also sheds light on the importance of continuous glucose monitoring (CGM) for individuals dealing with blood sugar issues. He states, “By having that data and those analytics of seeing what foods are doing to your blood sugar, you can fine-tune your nutrition.” CGM provides real-time feedback, helping individuals make informed dietary choices to manage their blood sugar levels effectively.
Practical Nutritional Advice
For those struggling with maintaining a balanced diet, Ryan offers practical advice. He suggests starting the day with a protein smoothie, which is easy to digest and packed with nutrients. Ryan’s preferred ingredients include frozen organic blueberries, peeled cucumber, baby carrots, a good quality protein powder, and coconut milk. He also emphasizes the importance of hydration and recommends incorporating healthy fats like MCT oil or half an avocado.
Supplements for Better Sleep
Addressing the common issue of sleep deprivation, Ryan recommends lifestyle modifications alongside supplements. He finds GABA and magnesium particularly effective for improving sleep quality. “GABA can really help with calming the mind, reducing racing thoughts, and improving sleep quality,” says Ryan. Magnesium, on the other hand, supports stress regulation and overall recovery.
Detoxification and Environmental Factors
Detoxification is another crucial aspect of Ryan’s holistic health approach. He advises minimizing exposure to toxins by avoiding processed foods, conventional grains, and industrial seed oils. Ryan also highlights the importance of ensuring proper bowel movements, staying hydrated, and maintaining a clean-living environment free from mold and mycotoxins.
Conclusion
Ryan Kennedy’s approach to health is comprehensive and grounded in the belief that true wellness comes from addressing multiple facets of our lives. By focusing on nutrition, sleep, exercise, stress management, and environmental factors, Ryan provides a blueprint for achieving long-term health and well-being. His insights and practical tips are invaluable for anyone looking to improve their health holistically.
For more information, you can visit Ryan Kennedy’s website and explore his health optimization programs and resources. His book, “Beyond Nutrition,” is available at his website and offers a wealth of recipes and nutritional advice to help you on your journey to better health.
Thanks and happy listening!
You may also refer to the transcripts below for the full transciption (not edited) of the interview.
Interview Transcipt -Not EditedEmailDownloadNew TabGreg Voisen
Well, welcome back to Inside Personal Growth. This is Greg Voisen, the host of Inside Personal Growth. And I have an amazing young man on the other side of the screen. And for those you who are just listening, his name is Ryan Kennedy. And Ryan has a book out called. Well, I'm going to try and get it in for the screen “Beyond Nutrition”, subtitle, “The Ultimate Cookbook for a Healthier & Higher Quality Life, 110 recipes. My wife and I have been using this and I highly recommend it. Secondly, he was referred by a gentleman by the name of Beau Parfit that many of you know i co authored a book called the precipice of life with bow is an exceptional person, and an amazing mountain climber. And his coach is Ryan. And Ryan actually lives in Encinitas, which is where I live for all you listening. Ryan, how're you doing today?
Ryan Kennedy
Hello, Greg, thanks for having me on, brother.
Greg Voisen
Well, it's good for you. It's good having you on and it's also good, that we're gonna get this time to talk to my listeners about it, I'm gonna let him know a bit about you. He's a functional medicine practitioner, traditional naturopath and a board-certified clinical nutritionist who helps people improve their health, through lifestyle and dietary changes. He's passionate about educating his patients to make the proper modifications to the lifestyle to avoid Reave, void and reverse obesity, weight gain, depression, fatigue, digestive issues, hormone imbalances and chronic diseases. Unlike conventional medicine, Ryan doesn't address symptoms, but rather uses natural approaches to support and enhance your body's ability to heal. This is a holistic approach. And Ryan, we're gonna get right into it, because I got a lot of questions to ask you. And I'm sure my listeners are eager to understand more about how you approach this. So let's start off there. You say that there's more to achieving health than just focusing on food? And could you share the core philosophy, and how it shapes your approach, really, to wellness, because there isn't a person out there today that hasn't probably had a wellness app or isn't wearing an Apple Watch and counting their steps and their calories, or they've got a Fitbit or they've got something. But a lot of times that's not working in and of itself. So, I'd love your approach.
Ryan Kennedy
I look at health from a broad holistic lens, Greg. So, in addition to your nutrition, you know, the foods that you're consuming, you have your sleep show, I would argue is even more important than your nutrition. If you had a wave both side by side, really the bedrock to our health, you have movement and exercise, you have your environments, meaning like your lighting, the type of water, you're drinking, the type of air that you're breathing, all sorts of other things that impact our biology, you have stress and stress management, which is, you know, responsible stress is responsible for 80% of hospital visits. I mean, it's a huge, huge problem for our society today. And then you have lab testing, you have habits and routines throughout your day, you have mindset practices, I mean, there's health is really multifactorial. So while nutrition is a big pillar, and what you're putting into your body is huge. It's just one of several pillars that really comprise how you feel how you perform and how long you live.
Greg Voisen
Well, it's really a mind body spirit approach is what you're saying, and I liked the holistic approach you're taking. And as a functional medicine practitioner and your work, that's the approach that you take. And and the difference between the conventional thing is, is many people could go out there and say, Oh, well, you know, I'm pre diabetic. So let's go take some ozempic, which a lot of normal physicians might recommend at this time, or I need weight loss. Why don't you go take go low? What is it that you would do? Let's say somebody came to you, and they had a few i What is your process, I should say, for evaluating somebody once they come to you so that you can determine what to prescribe.
Ryan Kennedy
It really comes back to looking at their intake forms, you know, their initial health questionnaire, because that gives me a whole background of what their current diet is like what medications they're taking supplements, they're using a full symptom chart of all the things that they're experiencing as far as health challenges, their goals, their, you know, whole different whole gamut of data that I can utilize to start to paint this picture, Greg. And then I start out with functional medicine lab testing, so getting an idea of where their biomarkers are at and I use blood testing, you know, looking at hormones, lipids, metabolic panel, all these different things to assess They're inflammation and all these different markers. And then I also use a variety of other labs in my practice. So I really enjoy organic acids testing, heavy metal minerals, testing toxin panels, there's so much out there in terms of really great data that we can gather. That's non invasive, it's not terribly expensive. And it really provides us this insight of what's going on under the hood, which helps to guide my decisions of what this person should be focusing on. The reality is part of the art of health, Greg is deductive reasoning, right? It's trying to discern, there's 100 Different things this person could do that would help them, right, but I can't throw 100 things at you they want are gonna be like Ryan, I came to you for stress management. Now I'm more stressed out, man, like you're throwing all this stuff at me. And it's hard to digest. I'm overloaded with information. So part of my job is trying to discern what are the top three things that the person in front of me should focus on? At the beginning? What are the real low hanging fruit, what's really going to move the needle and start to build that momentum and start to create that positive change. So that over the course of time, we could sprinkle in new things week in, week out, month in month out, so that over the course of six months over the course of a year, we've transformed these 100 different changes. But it hasn't felt overwhelming because we're sprinkling a man, we're drip feeding these changes in a way that creates long term sustainable change. It doesn't overwhelm them. And it really translates to lifestyle modification more than just a short term program or diet or exercise program. It's really about how can we change the way that you live and you see health and your daily inputs and decisions to get you from point A to point B?
Greg Voisen
Well, it's actually changing habits and you know, it's a thing. Nutritional information is everywhere, it's rampid. On the internet, it's rampid by all kinds of people claiming to help you lose weight to make you stronger to do whatever. And what are some of the most common myths that you encounter out there? That from your vantage point as a functional medicine practitioner? What are really just misinformation that's out on the internet, and address a few of them for us if you would?
Ryan Kennedy
There's a lot of different things. And part of the challenge, Greg is that there's no one size fits all, when it comes to diet, we all have different goals, we have different body types, we have different genetic backgrounds and profiles. So what diet might work for you may not work for the next guy, and vice versa. And we all have different likes and preferences. So just because I put together the optimal nutrition plan on paper, doesn't mean it's something you're going to be able to sustainably implement to long term and still enjoy your life. Right? You want to have balance, you want to have this kind of delicate balance between enjoying your meals, because eating is one of the great pleasures of the human experience, while also feeling good and not clogging up your system and living a long, healthy, vibrant life. And so I think that some of the pervasive myths is that you got to do it this way, or you're doomed to fail. Because there's a lot of things that work and there's in there's, you know, the human body is very adaptable. The other thing is, a lot of diets are really driving at the same outcome. And there's just different paths to get there. And what I mean by that is there's really a few key pillars, few key fundamentals that are all these diets are trying to accomplish, which is one energy balance, you don't want to over consume calories, because that will create weight gain, whether you're following a vegan diet, a carnivore diet, a keto diet, a Mediterranean diet, if you're over consuming calories chronically, you are going to gain weight. It's just the laws of physics, right? And there's a lot of things that determine energy expenditure energy input. But all diets are really pointing to how can we create energy balance? How can we optimize for protein? No one is going to disagree that getting enough protein is essential for not just building muscle, but also proper metabolic function and brain function and a million other things. And then the last thing is enjoyment, sustainability. How can you eat this way, not for the next three months or the next year, but for the next many decades. And that's what really creates a lot of the strife in these diet cultures is people like different stuff. Some people like meat, some people don't. Some people like high fat some people don't some people like carbs, some people don't. So it's really about finding what's going to work well for you. And that's why this is a very challenging landscape to navigate because there's a lot of different people have a lot of different preferences.
Greg Voisen
Well, one of the things that I'm sure my listeners, everybody out there has seen a plethora of videos on is fasting and the the well intentioned fasting to actually help with weight loss because of the number of the time period in between. And or and let's talk about glucose and conduct in conjunction with this one's ability to kind of Ctrl that a one C because they are heavy to reduce it. And I think you know, even you, you do fasting. And I think it's important for people to realize that this is here, it's here to say it isn't just a fad. And it's something that you would HIGHLY advocate is that true
Ryan Kennedy
is true. I mean, there's a lot of different types of fasting. But humans have been doing some type of fasting for millennia, since the dawn of time. There's never been a culture throughout human evolution that is eaten food from the moment they wake up to the moment they go to sleep 365 days a year. I mean, they just didn't have access. This was not by choice. You know, early hunter gatherers didn't fast because it was a fad, they fast because they didn't have food around. And so we've evolved to really thrive with having periods of a window between meals. And so this concept of what's called intermittent fasting is just compressing your eating window. Again, not eating around the clock, having some time in the morning, when you wake up before your first meal and having some time between your last meal and going to bed. Now, when it comes to intermittent fasting, Greg, I think most people aren't doing it sub optimally. And what I mean by that is they're backloading, they're eating window. So they're skipping breakfast, and they're fasting all day until 12, or one or 2pm. And then what they end up doing is they get home from work, they get, you know, their dinner ready. And then they end up eating dinner at seven, maybe even 8pm. Maybe they snack after dinner, and then they go to sleep shortly thereafter. Now, this is not optimizing the benefits of this compressed eating window. Humans are really designed to eat during the day. And this comes back to our circadian rhythm, our 24 hour biological clock, and all of our hormones and our gut bacteria in our digestive system. It's all primed for food during the day when the sun is out. And so I like to have people frontload, their intermittent fasting, where you focus on eating an early dinner, and having most of that fasting window take place between dinner, and go into sleep. And that way you optimize these benefits of cell rejuvenation and detox and gut repair and all these different things overnight while you're sleeping. Because when you try and do it in the morning, this you know you fast through the morning, this is when our body needs calories. That's when most of us are most people are very metabolically active. And the first half of the day they're exercising, they're working hard with their brain function with their career or their business. They're, they're moving and grooving right. And so that's when you need calories. And if you deprive your body of calories during that time, it tends to jack up your stress hormones, cortisol and norepinephrine. And that's not always a good thing, especially when done chronically. So my preferred eating window personally, is I'll have quote unquote, breakfast, sometime around nine, maybe 10am. And then I'll eat an early dinner at around three or 4pm. That's our price sounds crazy, because for most people, most cultures eating a 3pm dinner, it sounds absurd. But I will tell you what you feel fantastic. You have a nice long window between your last meal go into bed. And what ends up happening, if you eat very close before you go to sleep is your body's consuming all these energy all these calories, right before you have almost no energy expenditure, your frickin sleeping. And so what ends up happening is you store a lot of those calories as body fat, it disrupts your sleep quality, because your body's diverting resources towards breaking down that late night meal, instead of focusing on recovery and rejuvenation and repair. And then it ultimately creates this vicious cycle because then the next morning, you wake up, you don't feel as rested because you didn't sleep as well, because you went to bed with a full stomach, and all these other things. And so what I really like to focus on is the opposite. And by eating early, go into bed for five, even six hours after you've finished your last bite of food. You create the environments actually burn fat while you're sleeping, and your body gets optimal rest. And you feel amazing the next morning, and all these different things work better. And so it's really counterintuitive with how our schedules are, are structured for most people. Most people listening to this may not have the luxury of eating an early dinner like that, because they work till five or 6pm. Or maybe their kids and their their spouse aren't eating till six or 7pm. And they want to eat as a family. And I get that. And I don't encourage anyone to do it. I do encourage people to do what works for them. And so maybe that's eating an hour earlier, and you go take your dinner time from 7:30pm to 6:30pm. And that would be a huge win. And that's what I do with a lot of people I work with and that's what works for them if they aren't able to be much earlier than six o'clock. But the whole premise behind fasting is just having time where you're not ingesting food to allow this body your body to have this repair process take place. Now that's intermittent fasting. The next level to this is multi day fasting. And there's a whole variety of different things, everything from strict water fasting or all you're drinking his water to modified fasting, like Valter Longo is a is a scientist who came up with this whole fasting mimicking diet approach where you're consuming very low calories for four or five days at a time, which mimics a lot of the benefits of water fasting, but it's much safer in terms of keeping your electrolytes balanced. And maybe it's a lot easier to quite frankly, I developed my own modified fasting techniques for this. And there's a plethora of benefits for that as well. And so the whole world of fasting is is very interesting. And people see it as a fad, but it's spot as old as things get, man. So what are you seeing forever?
Greg Voisen
What are your thoughts on how fasting can positively affect? You know, there's this whole school out there about continuous glucose monitoring for a lot of people that are dealing with blood sugar issues, they're trying to control that, and they're trying to control it without medication. The other thing is the insulin. So when you fast, and you basically don't eat past four o'clock, and then not until 9am, again, are you actually able to kind of reset the your system so that you would have better production of the insulin and the glucose uptake?
Ryan Kennedy
I don't know if I use the word reset. But it certainly helps improve insulin sensitivity, because part of the challenge with people that have issues around blood sugar regulation is that they're getting these constant spikes and blood glucose and this constant secretion of insulin from their pancreas. And that desensitizes the cells, and it wears out your pancreas, and it creates this metabolic syndrome. And so by having periods of time you're not eating, it gives your body time to stabilize that blood sugar, not have to release copious amounts of insulin and improve this scenario, big time. And you know, from for the most part, fasting is one tool as part of many to accomplish this. The other thing I like to do with people that have high a one C or high fasting insulin is I like to just improve their nutrition. So eating less refined carbohydrates, less sugar, less starch, less refined grains, as well as less Omega six fats. Everyone looks at sugar as the big villain for this high, a one CD and this metabolic syndrome, and it is certainly fuel for the fire. But the other contributing factors high linoleic acid, which is found in vegetable oils, fried foods, even nuts and seeds, and pork and foods that people wouldn't think, spike your blood sugar, but can actually create that problem for a lot of folks, if they're eating too many Omega sixes, so like to improve their diet. And then there's also some very good herbs and supplements that can help with blood sugar regulation. So Berberine is one that's been shown to outperform Metformin, the diabetes drug in clinical trials, there's also bitter melon extract and email so that stray nutrients like Chromium, all of which help to stabilize your blood sugar. So one of my favorite products for this, Greg is a supplement called Biogen nema. That's a combination of a lot of these herbs and nutrients, I'm referring to that I've seen work wonders in helping people manage their blood sugar and their glycemic variability, support their pancreas, and ultimately reduce a reverse this, you know, pre diabetes or type two diabetes state they've gotten themselves into. Wow,
Greg Voisen
you gave some great suggestions there. And I think for our listeners, it's a good one, especially anybody who is having challenges with it. Where do you sit with relation to continuous glucose monitoring? You think it is great. You think that actually having one on to actually see what's happening during the day to your glucose? is valuable? Is it something that you would wear for a long time? Or is it something that you would say, Hey, I just put it on to get things organized before? Or do you see a lot of people wearing them for a long time?
Ryan Kennedy
Well, the truth is, with anything, what gets measured gets managed. And so by having that data and those analytics of seeing what foods are doing to your blood sugar, and having that real time feedback loop, saying, hey, when I ate this green bean casserole for dinner, my blood sugar went through the roof or when I write rice, my blood sugar spikes, but when I ate potatoes, my blood sugar is totally fine. If I have this particular protein bar, blood sugar is through the roof and it stays elevated for hours, fight this other brain, a protein bar, totally stable blood sugar. That type of feedback loop is fantastic for helping people fine tune their nutrition, see what their body's responding to. Because similarly to what I can describe with the different dietary approaches, Greg, different foods will despite the whole glycemic index, which is kind of set parameters that people can read up online. Different foods will impact your blood sugar differently. The mind a guy named Rob Wolfe wrote about this in his book wired to eat now by a decade ago, where he took two groups and he measured their blood sugar response between eating a banana and eating a chocolate chip cookie. Now most people would think that chocolate chip cookie jacks up everyone's blood sugar, way more than the banana. But that wasn't actually the case. When he found is that depending on the person, some people had some bigger blood sugar spike from the banana, and then the cookie, which is crazy when you mean you think about it. And so what it goes to say is that continuous glucose monitors can be a very useful tool, I don't find people need to wear them indefinitely, they aren't the most convenient thing, you know, because you got to prick your arm and stick it on there and put it somewhere on your body. And then you have to replace it every two weeks. And they're not exactly the cheapest things if you're paying out of pocket for them. And so I think that within a month or two, you can gather enough data in a feedback loops to know what you should be eating versus avoiding and see what impacting your blood sugar, what's not. And that's really useful. Same thing with tracking your sleep, I'm wearing what's called an ordering. This helps me to know what is impacting my REM sleep cycles, my deep sleep cycles, my my latency, my wakeups. So I can manipulate different factors. I could try this form of magnesium before bed or take this type of Lion's Mane mushroom. And rather than just saying, Well, I think it worked, I slept pretty good. I keep using it, I can actually see the data, I can say, hey, when I took this particular amino acid called five HTP, which is great for deep sleep, my deep sleep boost 50% from my normal my normal values. Clearly it's helping or maybe I take something else. And I'm like, Hey, why don't I take this L theanine? My sleep is exactly the same with or without it. I don't think I'm going to keep spending my money on L theanine, you know, so there's a lot of cool ways that we can actually track these biometrics to help guide our decisions of what we should be focusing our time and energy and resources on versus what's not really moving the needle?
Greg Voisen
Well, you're you're much an advocate for the aura ring, you're wearing it obviously, personally, yourself. And I think there are other devices out there as well. But I don't think they do near the job that the or ring does, because you know, it's like, Hey, I have my Apple watch, I can see this the sleep, but I can't see to the degree that you are, and then actually getting the recommended supplements to improve that. Because what happens is, you mentioned it right at the beginning of this podcast, that stress was a major concern, lack of sleep, actually in correlation to that creates that additional stress factor, right. So the two kind of go core they correlate with one another. What are you just mentioned a few supplements that people can take to improve sleep? I know for a long time melatonin was recommended to help people with with sleep. What is the one and I know it's different for everybody. But what are the two or three supplements that you really see being used mostly for sleep helping people with deeper sleep.
Ryan Kennedy
I would say lifestyle modification is the number one thing people should focus on. You know, if you're not getting morning sun upon waking and getting outside, when the sun is at a low solar angle, you're not powering down devices before bed, keeping your room cool, keeping room dark, doing a lot of the basic fundamentals, you could buy all the supplements under the sun, they're only going to help you so much, right? That's more of the icing on the cake. So I encourage people to really focus on eating an early dinner, not viewing screens right before bed and bright whites trying to adopt the lifestyle practices first. And then when they do turn to supplements. A few of my top picks that I've seen work best in clinical practice. One is called GABA to calming amino acid that can really help to quiet down racing mind and racing thoughts help you fall asleep or stay asleep and improve your sleep quality, very inexpensive, get some form of GABA on Amazon. I like a brand called Thorn. And that is something that I see work with a lot of people very well, especially the entrepreneurs and type a driven individuals I work with that have just a lot going on in their heads. They're thinking about business ideas and projects and all sorts of deadlines. And that stuff can keep you up at night can also cause you to wake up at one or 2am and your mind is racing and you can't fall back asleep. So GABA can really help with that. The next on the list would be magnesium, I find magnesium being our body's master mineral really helps with stress regulation. It's hard to get enough of it through our diets alone. And it has a multitude of other benefits beyond helping with sleep. Sure, it's great for recovery. Sure, it's both for sleep quality, but it's also helpful for million other things. And so that's why it's also at the top of my list. I like a brand called Mother Earth labs that makes magnesium that contains all seven bioactive forms. So it has magnesium glycinate, magnesium, malate, magnesium citrate, all these really good different forms of magnesium that work kind of differently from each other. And then it has a couple of cofactors that help with absorption like humic and fulvic acid and zinc and a couple other things. So that's one of my top picks as far as to have great sleep supplements. From there. There's a number of other things that can help and I can rattle off 10 options, but
Greg Voisen
well, they can come and they can go to your website and we're going to put link to your website to get in touch with you for console. You certainly can do that. And I think one of the things that I know I came to your house with Bo, we pushed some weights for a while, we got in the sauna, we took a shower, we got out of a sauna, and we got back in there. And that is the sense of kind of a detox to a degree. In other words, you go in, that's on a detox, a lot of people will, as you call it, they'll actually do detox diets. Where do you said as a functional medicine practitioner on the complete detox diet, and well, let's just talk it. We haven't even gotten into meditation, and yoga and all the other things that would be great for people to do. But speak with us if you would about where you would be with the things that people can detox that are good for them.
Ryan Kennedy
The first thing I'd suggest when it comes to nutrition is looking at not bringing more toxins into your body. Okay, so eating a bunch of glyphosate ridden grains, you know, conventional wheat sprayed with all sorts of pesticide residue, this is just going to create more problems. Same thing with a lot of processed food and industrial seed oils, all these foods that we know we should avoid. Well, you could be having your celery juice in the morning eating a high protein diet, which is really helpful for phase one and phase two, liver detox, doing a lot of the right things as far as what you're consuming, but what most people should be focused on is not adding more, but what is the problem I need to reduce? What are the things that I should eliminate, that are causing me to slow down my progress that are really like making this an uphill battle? You mentioned sauna, which is the most well studied way of detoxification. And that's, you know, really well documented that we preferentially excrete toxins to our skin to our sweat over other pathways of detoxification. Another thing is our bowel movements. A lot of people have mild or moderate constipation, where they're only having a bowel movement every two or three days, that's a big problem. That's how you eliminate a lot of waste. So you need to make sure that your digestive system is working properly, and your gut bacteria and microbiome or are not, you don't have imbalances that are causing your digestive system to clog up. Because that's a huge issue for a lot of folks. And then environments, you know, making sure you don't have any mold or mycotoxin exposure, making sure you're drinking filtered or purified water. Same thing with air right in your home and your environments, you know, live right next to a freeway or have, you know a bunch of building materials from a brand new renovation that are just outgassing from vinyl laminate flooring, and all these different construction materials that contain all these toxins, you know, that are really pernicious to our health. So that's another big component to this. Sleep is very helpful getting adequate sleep because we detoxify a lot as we're sleeping. So and then I can't leave water off the list. You know, hydration is imperative. I really liked the saying that nature solution to pollution is dilution, right? We need to hydrate we needed to drink enough water to flush everything through. And then there's
Greg Voisen
so many people are dehydrated, if you actually did a blood test on him, it would it would be there. Now the the foods that you have in beyond nutrition, these 110 My wife and I have been using your cookbook regularly now. And actually, she's been cooking out of it. And one I want to thank you for that book again. What are some of the, you know, a lot of people that are out there on the go, they gotta make things quick. You have all these companies now that are sending box food to them to go do what they've got to do. As you said they're entrepreneurs, they got tiempo, south, things to do for you. What's a typical day like in the nutrition out of things that's in your cookbook, that are are things that people can make relatively quickly, are very highly high in nutrition, and can actually help them keep maintain a healthy lifestyle and the balance that you talked about?
Ryan Kennedy
Start with breakfast. I think having a smoothie protein smoothie for breakfast is incredible. Because it's very easy on your digestive system. It doesn't bog down your energy and mental focus, you know, you get all these great nutrition in less than five minutes to prepare. So I like to use a base of frozen organic blueberries, you could use other fruits if you'd like. I like to add in some peeled cucumber or some some raw baby carrots or some vegetable sources. I don't I'm not a big fan of bunch of spinach and kale and leafy greens because of the oxalate load and some of the anti nutrients and those foods and then putting a good quality protein powder whether it's a grass fed whey or plant based or collagen protein, lots of options you can incorporate all liquify with little coconut milk. Sometimes I'll add a little cod liver oil or MCT oil if you want some extra fats, maybe half an avocado and that will create an awesome breakfast that you can up In one of those insulated thermoses, those water bottles, Greg, and just sit on it throughout the morning, you know, and you get this slow bleed in nutrition doesn't overwhelm your gut. The reason a lot of people like skipping breakfast is because when they eat normal breakfast foods, which are really just desserts like pancakes and muffins and all this nonsense, they feel like trash an hour or two later. And it makes sense. You're jacking up your blood sugar, and you're putting all this inflammatory crap into your body. So they skip breakfast entirely. They're like, Oh, my gosh, I feel better. You know, I don't have all this, you know, junk food going into my system? What do you know? Well, I would say what would be an even notch up than that is getting a nutritious breakfast that's easy to digest and contains a lot of the micronutrients and amino acids that your brain and body needs.
Greg Voisen
So that's what Ryan does it nine o'clock. Now, let's say nine o'clock because you have a regular exercise routine, which is pretty strenuous to most people. What do you eat lunch at noon? Do you have something at one o'clock? And then do you eat again at four o'clock? And if you do, what are you eating at one o'clock in between your workout?
Ryan Kennedy
Yeah, I really like seafood. I find fishing and it's easier proteins to break down and like a steak or you know, heavy meat source. So I'll either do some mahimahi like it'll make up some CDJ. For the week and a half that sometimes I'll do like a salmon salad or I'll get this wild caught canned salmon, mash it up with a fork and add in some mustards and pickles, but a bit of primal kitchen male, just like you would a tuna salad, but salmon just being lowered and heavy metals and a healthier seafood source than tuna. Sometimes I'll do Canis sardines, sometimes it will skip lunch, especially if I have a busy day. And I'll work all the way through dinner and you don't feel totally fine. So it kind of depends, like you said, Greg on how much activity I'm doing that morning, what my schedule is like, but I would say most days, I do have a lunch. And that would be pretty typical choice for me would be something protein, high protein, seafood, seafood based and pretty low in carbohydrates, again, to keep my blood sugar stable. And then dinner is where I like to carb load. That's where I'll replenish most of my carbohydrates for the day. And this allows you to have good stable blood sugar, good focus, good mental clarity throughout the day. And then with dinner is where I'll have some low inflammatory carbs. That could be some sweet potatoes or regular potatoes. That could be some white rice. That could be some organic corn tortillas, making like some some tacos of some sort, a whole variety of different options that I think are really clean sources of carbs. And that's where I'll also incorporate heavier protein. So I might have some grass fed meat, whether it be bison or ground beef or lamb. I might do some chicken or some poultry, you know, do some turkey, we really depends on the day. But that's kind of what I'm thinking through as far as like the typical flow for what I'm eating.
Greg Voisen
It's a good, it's always good to know from the source itself that, you know, this is how I do it. And I think a lot of people do that. I want to remind my listeners that you can go to Ryan Kennedy health.com Brian Kennedy health.com. And he and I were just talking about sleep, he has his own podcast show. And he recently did podcast 122. With guest Molly Eastman. There you can learn more about the art of mastering the art of sleep. That's one of Ryan's recent podcasts. But he's got a whole plethora of podcasts on longevity and performance and maximizing your health. And do subscribe to it. I'm going to say to all of my listeners, go to the Ryan Kennedy show. There. There's 122 podcasts so far. He's got a long way to catch up with me. But he's getting there. So, Ryan, finally, because they know from a standpoint of time, we're kind of running out of it. But how would you help tell people in general to I don't want to say look at their diet and their nutrition and their lifestyle. And then after they've kind of read your book or gone to your website. What is it that you do this are a form they're out there, they can get lab testing from you, they can get the book, but they really would sign up as a client to use your services, correct. I mean,
Ryan Kennedy
if they want to, you definitely don't need to it just depends on what degree of support people are looking for. So I'd say the majority of students and patients I work with go into my men's program, or my women's program, which is contains 10 comprehensive master classes and protocols and downloads and kind of learn at your own pace situation. And then I have office hours every week. group coaching calls are people come in and ask questions and bring their lab results and get feedback and all sorts of good stuff. And so that's where I work with a lot of people some more of a group community capacity. And then I do see patients one on one, you know and offer private consulting but a lot of people to your point great or can educate themselves with podcast books, all sorts of other free material that org.
Greg Voisen
And that program met men's and our women's health optimization program, give my listeners an idea of what it is to get involved in that program and the cost to them.
Ryan Kennedy
So as far as the programs go, you can read up all the details on the website, you know, and it's, it's like I said, it's 10 masterclasses really the the What the Why and how geared towards simplicity and instant implementation. I have a weekly call office hours where I answer people's questions check in on accountability, I have a community layer for additional accountability and to support relationship building. And it really covers the ADHD of health, you know, dive into fundamental principles and mindset to kick it off, and then go into mastering your routines with your morning and evening practices and sleep and energy optimization. Dive into the fasting and meal timing and optimal hydration stuff we touched on today. Nutrition mastery, movement and exercise diving into fitness protocols and weight training and interval training and all these different workout routines. I do deep dive into hormones, stress management's supplementation, environments and detoxification and then all sorts of stuff on biohacking longevity advanced lifestyle practices, so they can go learn all about it there. And as far as the costs and
Greg Voisen
and are they are they pre recorded and then you do the coaching sessions. Is it like a synchronistic? synchronistic? Is everything a synchronistic? Meaning it's already been pre recorded, and then they come into a class to talk to you or is everything synchronistic
Ryan Kennedy
everything's pre recorded, ready for them to view they can go at their own pace. And then they come every week and you know, get customized coaching and feedback and answer any questions and all that on those live calls. Well,
Greg Voisen
they also you also have lab testing there. So people can check out that I definitely would encourage them to get a copy of this book. Anything you want to leave the listeners with with relation to diet, nutrition exercise, the mind body spirit connection that we are helping them make and your functional medicine practice and how you might be able to assist them if they're having a challenge in one area of their life.
Ryan Kennedy
Appreciate asking Greg and having me on the show today. Man, I think people the main key domino people can focus on is really figuring out what's holding them back. Like you said, it's not access to information ever, you know, we have more information at our fingertips than ever before. Yeah. And, you know, what I've discovered through my work of what holds people back in terms of making effective long term changes, whether it's weight loss, muscle gain, improving their, you know, digestion or sleep, their energy, whatever it is, the real reason is a combination. One is lacking detailed guidance, it's one thing to come on here is a more protein and, you know, reduce your calories and, you know, make these simple changes. But that's very different, Greg than saying, Here's a detailed protocol, here's the exact step by step playbook, of what I'm going to be eating, for breakfast, lunch and dinner, how much of it, what ingredients to buy, what recipes to prepare, how to do this in a time efficient manner, what meal prep services are going to be best for systematizing. And automating this process. Due to it's completely different. So I think the detailed guidance is a big component to that. The accountability is also huge, we lie to ourselves with alarming regularity. And for most people, they say they're going to do something, they don't do it. And then the process repeats, and they lose faith in their own words in themselves. And so by having someone to keep you accountable, external to yourself makes a world of difference when it comes to behavior change. And then last thing is the mindset, the identity. Most people think they struggle with their habits and their routines because they're too busy or too tired or a million other reasons. But the real reason is that they don't identify with a healthy person, they don't identify as someone that makes these choices and does these actions day in and day out. And there's a lot of self sabotage and other things that come into play with the mental and emotional baggage we carry around with us. And so one of the techniques I developed for this is a Holotropic breathwork modality that really helps to flip the script really helps to dive into the subconscious and rework some of these patterns and rewrite some of these narratives that we tell ourselves. That's amazing for behavior change. And so those are really some key components that I think people should explore is not just reading more books, listening to more podcasts all that's great and informing yourself and staying educated, amazing place to start. But if you've been educating yourself for months or years, and you're still in the same place, you're not taking action and actually making material change in your life. I encourage you to explore these other avenues that I think can really help people tap in and make the necessary changes they need. I
Greg Voisen
think you just pointed out in the last three minutes, some of the things that are really preventing people from doing it, and one of the things I would say is getting in touch with that subconscious mind knowing how you've reprogrammed it. And your somatic breathing techniques are really, really positive way for people to do that. Ryan, I think if Bo Parfitt recommends you, somebody who can climb all the highest seven summits in the world, that everybody else out there, including myself, should get a board with Ryan. Ryan, I just want to thank you for being on the show. spending a few minutes with our listeners and giving them some guidance, some tips and go out and get a copy of this book. This is kind of a this could be your intro into it, Beyond nutrition Ryan's cookbook. Thanks so much for being on Inside Personal Growth. Namaste to you. Appreciate it so much.
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Inside Personal Growth with Greg Voisen · Podcast 1110: Exploring Regenerative Medicine: An Inside Look with Dr. James PinkstonIn our latest podcast episode, we had the privilege of speaking with Dr. James Pinkston, a pioneering physician in the realm of regenerative medicine, based in Asheville, North Carolina. Dr. Pinkston’s practice focuses on employing innovative, non-surgical methods to alleviate pain and enhance the body’s natural healing processes.
Throughout the interview, Dr. Pinkston shared valuable insights into his approach, emphasizing the body’s intrinsic ability to heal itself. He discussed various treatments, including the use of Intellifat BOD kits, which utilize adipose tissue to aid in recovery and pain management. His holistic view integrates the osteopathic philosophy, focusing on the whole patient — body, mind, and spirit — to encourage healing.
Key takeaways from our discussion include:
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Patient-Centric Approach: Dr. Pinkston tailors treatments to the individual needs of his patients, ensuring they receive care that aligns with their personal health goals and lifestyle.
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Innovative Treatments: He highlighted the effectiveness of minimally invasive techniques like adipose tissue injections, which have shown remarkable results in improving patient mobility and reducing pain without the need for surgical interventions.
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Education and Prevention: A significant part of Dr. Pinkston’s practice involves educating patients on maintaining and improving their health through lifestyle changes. He advocates for a proactive approach to health, emphasizing prevention and patient education as key components of treatment success.
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Future of Medicine: Dr. Pinkston is optimistic about the future of regenerative medicine. He believes ongoing advancements will continue to improve the efficacy of treatments and broaden the possibilities for non-invasive therapies.
Dr. Pinkston’s dedication to advancing non-invasive medical treatments and his commitment to patient care make him a standout voice in the medical community. His work offers hope to those suffering from chronic pain and inspires healthcare professionals to explore and adopt innovative treatments that align with the body’s natural abilities to heal and regenerate.
For those intrigued by the scientific, compassionate, and forward-thinking approach to medicine, this podcast is a treasure trove of knowledge, encouraging a shift towards more humane and effective healthcare solutions.
Listen to the full interview on our website and discover how regenerative medicine is setting new paradigms in health and wellness.
If you want to know more about Dr. Pinkston, please visit his website or his page on Intellifat’s website.
Happy Listening!
You may also refer to the transcripts below for the full transciption (not edited) of the interview.
Interview Transcipt -Not EditedEmailDownloadNew TabGreg Voisen
Welcome back to Inside Personal Growth. This is Greg Voisen, the host of Inside Personal Growth. And we have Dr. James Pinkston on the other side of the screen joining us and for those of you who are listening on audio, he's in a not in the studio, but he's on zoom with us. Dr. Pinkston, good day to you. How are you?
Dr. James Pinkston
Good morning. I can't complain doing pretty well. How are you today, Greg?
Greg Voisen
Good, good. It's a pleasure having you on inside personal growth, where most of my listeners know we speak about wellness. And they know we've had various physicians on here speaking about regenerative medicine, and Dr. Pinkston, I'm going to tell him a little bit about you, James. He's we got the privilege of welcoming him to the show. It's kind of a Vanguard, I would say in the field of regenerative medicine with roots in athletic training, and premedical studies at the University of North Carolina, Charlotte. James has journey through an impressive academic path graduating from Edward van Virginia College of Osteopathic Medicine. His expertise in muscular skeletal ultrasound has honored him during a residency at lark Community Hospital in Fort Lauderdale, Florida, where his passion for Regenerative Medicine first took hold. Dr. Pinkston brings his deep-seated knowledge back to his home state, which is where he is now. And he leads a pioneering regenerative practice in Asheville, North Carolina. His practice is at the forefront of employing innovative treatments. And we're going to be speaking about some of those treatments during the show here today. And it underscores by his philosophy of the body and the intrinsic ability to heal itself. You can find out more about him, and his practice, which is Asheville, in s o.com. We'll put a link for that. That's Asheville, nso.com, and it stands for Asheville, non-surgical orthopedics. And there, you can learn more about him. Well, thanks for being on the show and taking this time with us today. And I think most people probably are going to be asking this question, you know, we hear regenerative medicine a lot. I'm not certain everybody knows what it is. But what inspired you to pursue a career in this osteopathic medicine? And how does your educational background from the University of North Carolina? How did that kind of influence this approach to patient care?
Dr. James Pinkston
I started my education in athletic training, just treating athletes on the field side with the injuries that they were having. And I was considering taking education farther and maybe some sort of graduate program. And I spoke to some key individuals and they told me some really intriguing stories about their interactions with particularly an osteopathic physician. They were telling me about the hands on skills that they learn. And in one instance physician was able to predict or detect a patient's pregnancy very early before they were showing before they even in fact told anyone about it. And another one, they were able to predict that a child's growth plates are open, and that they would be experiencing a growth spurt soon. And that, that does seem kind of like fantasy kind of magical to me. Yeah, the skills that they can learn. And that was a big push to go to specifically osteopathic med school because I was considering med school in general, just to provide a higher level of care. And so that's what I ended up deciding to do. And while I was there, it was great to learn the hands-on skills. I still practice that today. But another thing that was really key and stood out to me about the osteopathic way of teaching is they they encourage a more holistic view, encourage you to look at the body as a whole have in fact, mind body and spirit. And that just initiated a treatment philosophy. Okay, the body is capable of self-healing, if you can give it what it needs or remove some of the impediments to that. And it really goes hand in hand with what I would later learn to be regenerative medicine.
Greg Voisen
Yeah, and it's interesting, you know, we see, we hear a lot about this, and I'm sure many of my listeners have gone to, through all alternative therapy. And I'm not gonna say chiropractic is alternative treatment. But to an extent, you know, when you look at chiropractic doctors, many of them today are involved in stem cell therapy to they're bringing in other doctors to do that in their practice, primarily, because they're not allowed to do the injections, right? When we say minimally invasive, I actually just went to a workshop that a guy did. But you discussed or gave me some ideas before this show that you kind of had a pivotable experience during your residency at Larkin community hospital that say that really kind of shaped your interest in regenerative medicine. Can you explain that and what it was that kind of was this pivotal experience that you had,
Dr. James Pinkston
rather than residency was where I was first exposed to the even the concept or phrase of regenerative medicine that we can do something that is not using a medication is just natural and helping the body heal itself. I was there to learn more about my specialty neuro musculoskeletal medicine focuses a lot on osteopathic manipulation, the hands on techniques and a lot of your traditional pain management tools like steroid injections, or nerve blocks. But fortunately, I think it is pretty fortuitous, I just happened to be at a residency where my mentor was employing some of the regenerative medicine techniques where I was first exposed to platelet rich plasma. And they were also using musculoskeletal ultrasound, which is another key piece to my practice these days seem to make a massive difference in treatment outcomes, just increasing the precision. So it's not simply touch or palpation guided, it's actually seeing the structure and confirming that the needle and whatever you're injecting is exactly where it needs to be. So seeing those success stories was excellent. And it started shaping the way that I thought that I might practice in the future. And eventually, it did pan out that way that i i started incorporating both of those things, musculoskeletal ultrasound, I'm a heavy user of that, and regenerative medicine for the majority of my patients.
Greg Voisen
Yeah, and it's pretty amazing some of the things that you can do with that. Well, what would be a case example for you Dr. Pinkston that you might state for PRP or muscular skeletal therapy that you've done, where you've seen somebody's body just heal and heal? amazingly well, I think it's always good for our listeners to like hear a story. It's like, okay, here he is. He's talking about these things. But how how does it work most recently with one of your patients.
Dr. James Pinkston
I have a couple of stories. Some of them are very simple. I mean, I have some elderly patients who they don't necessarily want to go run a marathon or, you know, do something incredibly active. They just simply don't want to be restricted in the things that they do. They want to be able to walk and get around. And with current levels of pain. For example, I have someone who was just sad that they, they were having difficulty walking their dog every day, just kind of a a non glamorous task, but it was very important to them. And they they weren't able to have that experience and relationship because of some Achilles pain. But after and injection that healed up and they were able to return to normal lifestyle. I have another patient who was setting higher goals they wanted to hike across Italy and And they currently are unable to because of kind of advanced hip osteoarthritis. And they were looking for alternatives. They didn't want surgery, they had tried steroid injections, and they weren't seeing the relief, they want it. So they stopped into my practice. And for them, we actually did a adipose or fat injection. And they were able to recover and hike, or excuse me go through the trip that they wanted to with their friends. And yeah, they still, that was couple years ago, they're still doing very well. You know, wow, real frictions in their daily activities. On
Greg Voisen
your ongoing treatments, Dr. Pinkston for these inflammatory kind of diseases, what else do you do in your practice to help whether it's elderly patients or even young patients, I actually know a young woman who has early onset arthritis. And they're saying it's due to kind of an auto immune system? Are you guys doing ongoing kind of observations and treatments of these patients? And if so, what are some of the things that you do?
Dr. James Pinkston
We follow up with our patients regularly after treatments, generally, just to see them through the course of healing, because it can take a couple months, sometimes depending on the treatment, and then we'll we'll just check back in with them regularly. Sometimes it's appropriate to repeat a treatment at different intervals. Sometimes I'm really just coaching and counseling, I do a lot of patient education just either on lifestyle, I'm a huge advocate for strength training at every age. And the older you are, I think it's even more important. That's probably, in my opinion, where their self advocacy has the most potential for benefit, and what they can do to prevent further problems down the road. You know, if they had to do one thing, even if it was compared to other healthy lifestyle, eating, right, sleeping, right, I'm a massive proponent of strength training. And I don't mean trying to set world records just being stronger, being more functional being more capable.
Greg Voisen
Well, I think just moving the muscle, I know a lot of my listeners have heard me say this, but in this July, I'm going to be 70. And the thing is, is that, you know, I'm going to the gym regularly now. And I'm really noticing the difference, just by doing even lighter weights, longer repetitions. And I would tell everybody out there, that your whole body feels better. Yeah, maybe the first or second day you feel the aches and pains of it. But once you get past that, you can do that. I also will tell tell them that, you know, I do a 30 minute sauna and then I jump in a cold shower afterwards as well. And we all know the benefits of that. But the key is, you know, when you get these toxins out of your system, it's just pretty amazing. And you know, you talked about this processed lipo aspirate treatments, what are kind of the benefits you've observed? And as well, you know, you're an advocate, or you're using intelli fat and you integrate it into your practice. And what distinct advantages does it offer in compared to traditional methods that you might have been using and or maybe still using along with this treatment with the intelli fat kits?
Dr. James Pinkston
I will sometimes combine different treatments. And if I am approaching a patient, there's usually lots of options. The intellifax kids to do, what the layman would call a stem cell injection, injecting adipose or fatty tissue, which contains mesenchymal stem cells is probably the, one of the most effective musculoskeletal treatments that in a non surgical perspective that there is. So those are, those patients are the ones that are a little more severe, or the ones who are looking to really optimize their outcomes. Usually it's arthritis, but treating a variety of conditions really can be applied all over the body, tendons, ligaments, and those patients they take, there's a bit of a healing period so it's not instant. But that's where I see the best results compared to even other regenerative medicine techniques. Platelet rich plasma is fantastic. It works great. But for more pathological conditions, that's when I start to talk to the patient like, hey, we could do platelet rich plasma, but we might consider and should start thinking about doing something that is a little more intensive, at least from the healing perspective, a little more potent, and then I'll start to educate them on the use of their own fat.
Greg Voisen
Yeah, and you know, it is a little bit more but not extensively. So I mean, because you do have to extract the fat using the cannulas on the individuals. And then you actually filter it and then you reinjected in but you do all this within a very short period of time. The whole procedure is what about 45 minutes for you and relatively painless other than maybe the part where they put the cannulas in? Yeah.
Dr. James Pinkston
Yeah, the procedures are very well tolerated. It might seem a little daunting, a liposuction, but it's, there's very little pain, it's not pain free. But even my pain, my patients who were really having trouble with pain and needles, they do quite well. There. They're not generally watching the procedure. And the pain itself is very well controlled, just with a little bit of numbing.
Greg Voisen
Yeah. And when you're extracting this fat, and let's say you're using this on a shoulder or knee or whatever, about how much fat are you actually pulling out and then filtering and then reinjected back into the patient. And then as you track them along the way, when do you start to see some significant noticeable differences?
Dr. James Pinkston
We it does depend on the area. But generally, we use about 30 milliliters of fat to treat a specific area was just take the example of a shoulder that can 30 milliliters of fat and can process it down to a good amount of injectate. For a single shoulder, we'll have to take a little bit more if it's for multiple areas, or it's a little more complex, and we need to inject multiple targets. So it's, it's not a lot to maybe the disappointment man on some of my patients, they'd like to take a little bit more, but it it's small, it's hardly noticeable. doesn't leave any aesthetic marks back there. No real scarring. Actually, you wouldn't be able to tell that you had anything done, except for the bandages that are there, they heal quite well. And what was the second part of the question? Well,
Greg Voisen
you you track these patients, you said sometimes, these injections maybe take a little bit longer. We have known as different time periods with patients. One of the stories that I heard from Dr. Larson was the gentleman was up playing golf and six weeks, and he actually won the tournament. And this was a result of using the Intel a fat kit, do you have any kind of significant stories where you had a patient who had very large improvement as a result of of your the injections and using the Intel effect kit?
Dr. James Pinkston
Yeah, most of the patients do quite well. I'd say the success rate is probably around 85%. And that, my experience seems to to track with other physicians who I've talked to. And the timeline is roughly four to six weeks for most patients to start noticing something immediately after the procedure, they're a little bit sore. Maybe for a week or so whatever we injected is a little bit sore, where we took the fat from a little bit sore, but that heals quite quickly. And then it will feel very similar to how it did before the injection. But they'll notice as the weeks go by, and they begin to do some strengthening and physical therapy, which is another thing that I'm a big proponent of that about the four to six week mark, they start to say, Hey, I'm actually starting to feel a lot better. I'm not noticing that pain that used to bother me. And that will continue for two, three months down the road just getting better and better and better. And some patients heal a little faster than others they can return to activity A little faster than others, a lot of it depends on them and kind of their health status going into it. But I, I have a similar story about someone wanting to go into a competition, in this case a not for them for their dog a dog jumping competition, but the person who is working with the dog has to throw the toy out into the water. And because of some shoulder arthritis, they couldn't do it, period. And they had a competition coming up in two months. And they were looking for options. So we did use the Intel FAT system. And we injected the shoulder with their own adipose. And about two weeks before the competition around the six week mark, they were noticing great improvements and range of motion, no pain, actually then. And they were able to continue to improve. And they did quite well in their competition.
Greg Voisen
What a great story, it's always good to hear the good stories about people that are improving. And you know, I know a lot of times, physicians like yourself, someone will come in, and they'll say, oh, you know, the doctors recommending a knee replacement, or shoulder replacement. Or I'm supposed to have this or I'm that, but I'm looking for the alternative. Have you been finding that when you incorporate other treatments, including intelli fat, or acupuncture or shockwave therapy are some of the other things that you do in your practice, that you can actually prolong someone having either a shoulder surgery done or knee surgery done or whatever. I mean, you obviously are looking for the alternative to an invasive surgery with some non invasive techniques. And while I would say intelli fat is very minimally invasive, it is, but have you successfully kind of gotten people to be able to say, Hey, I'm not doing that surgery. Now. I'm going to push that off. And I'm going to see how this works. And if so, how long have you seen that it works?
Dr. James Pinkston
That is the main focus of my practice to try and avoid. Not not just surgical techniques, but more invasive interventions. And yes, there is a degree of invasiveness even withdrawing blood for platelet rich plasma or taking some fat, but it is it is truly minimal. And the healing is very quick. And and healing is is pretty effective. I will say that I don't think poorly of surgery or surgeons. And oftentimes it's it's a good option. It's definitely something to consider. And I will typically counsel patients in a why not get an opinion, but I sure think that you should consider your non surgical options. And that's that's where I try to push them. And sometimes with various regenerative medicine techniques, whether it be a shockwave therapy, platelet rich plasma, the cellular injections, like using the fat and the intellia FAT system, they can actually not need surgery, you know that they can sometimes heal completely. Sometimes they are just pushing the date back a little bit, a few years. But it can be on the order of years the degree of improvement that they see. And we'll just take it taken on a case by case basis, but a lot of my patients are able to avoid and others. Despite this being very effective, it doesn't stop the clock for aging. And you know, if we we live long enough, we still might have some some joint problems and they might go on to surgery later. But the majority haven't needed it. You know, time Time will tell what what happens in the future. But so far, so good patients who are having a good response are able to stay away from the surgeries.
Greg Voisen
Well, you said at the onset of this in the interview that your belief is in the body's innate ability to heal itself from you know, the treatment plans and interactions that you might be able to give it give a patient and that philosophy about the body needs to heal itself is really an important element of your whole practice. I mean this is what you do. You list it your website a myriad of things that are available for people to get treatments from you with. And we've talked about, obviously the Intel a fat. What are some of the challenges that you face that you think you face in regenerative medicine, and particularly in terms of patient education and treatment expectations? Because you know, you've got all of these things you can use, right? And you're saying, I believe the body has its ability to heal itself. I know that a lot of this is about the education. And you're wonderful at doing it, because I've looked through the website. And I think the key is, is that, how is it that you go about that process? One? And how do you determine based on your background, which one is the best one to use?
Dr. James Pinkston
Well, the philosophy that the body can heal itself is truly the basis of all my treatments. Pretty much everything that I offer, in my practice revolves around that, whether it be hands on osteopathic manual manipulation, using machine like shockwave therapy, or doing some sort of injection, they're all trying to help you help yourself and help the body heal in some sort of way. One of the challenges when trying to get somebody into that line of thinking is pre established ideas, a lot of times, they will have talked to other providers, and they will have heard, you don't have any options, you you have to go to surgery, or you, you have to do this other traditional intervention. And they, they can get kind of set in their ways. And it can be difficult to re educate. And when, when people come in with with notions like that. But there's also the desire for immediate gratification, you know, wanting to feel better now, and just kind of counseling that, well, if if you injure yourself, if you sprain an ankle, you're not better tomorrow, you're not better necessarily the next week, it, it just takes time. But after spending a fair bit of the appointment, discussing those types of topics and think teaching them to think a little bit differently, and they get on board and decide to give it a shot, they're usually very happy with the results. Determining which treatment to do is also pretty much a matter of education. It's there's not necessarily a one size fits all type of treatment, and not every treatment is necessarily appropriate. But for a given problem, you can try and use and implement multiple treatments. So I think it's best to educate the patient, I really the goal is to have them make an informed decision. So discuss treatment, one, two, and three, and go through the pros and cons so they can kind of analyze for themselves. Okay, does this fit with my timeline? Maybe the schedule? Or is there something about one treatment, maybe I'm kind of averse to needles and I want something non invasive, or maybe finances play a role and need to think about treatments that are more affordable. So there's, there's a lot involved, and I do my best to kind of tease that out. In the initial console. It's pretty thorough, just really trying to see what the patient's looking for the setting expectations, talking about the treatments talking about the post care and the healthy lifestyle component, which we touched on, and then really just not telling them what they should do more guiding them to the right decision. Yeah,
Greg Voisen
and you know, I think you touched on that earlier, but you said you've emphasized this importance of healthy lifestyle in conjunction with these treatments. And I think what's important is you know, somebody comes in and gets a treatment, the after the treatment is as important as the treatment itself. And you know, you integrate Lifestyle coaching in to your overall practice. Yes. And what impact do you see that having on the outcomes of these treatments, let's say a behavior that somebody had prior was not helping this particular condition, such as inflammation, maybe the way they ate the things they ate, versus you coaching them to doing or they had an unhealthy lifestyle like smoking, have you been able to actually have a huge impact on people and changing the behavior as a result of your lifestyle coaching, so that they could become better from your treatments?
Dr. James Pinkston
If they can, or if together, we can identify a barrier and remove it, it's dramatic the differences that it can make. And the patients who do listen and kind of heed that advice, they do a lot better than that is a a, probably the majority of my time was why set so much time aside for new patients is, is talking about things like that identifying barriers, and trying to not only overcome those, but also guide them to make small changes incrementally to a overall healthy lifestyle. So it's not too much all at once. And I see patients, they will have faster recovery, they'll have longer lasting pain relief. And overall, just a improved outcome compared to me, this might seem obvious, but compared to someone who's not really focusing as much on their health, or trying to optimize things, and remove activities are habits that they have, that may be a little counterproductive.
Greg Voisen
Very important point. And I'm glad that he made that point because it's one thing to get an intelli fat injection and four weeks have some kind of great result. It's another thing to sustain that result as a result of a healthy lifestyle, and the things that you can do now, where do you see this kind of future in the field of non surgical orthopedics and Regenerative Medicine adding kind of in the next 10 years, we're seeing all kinds of innovations. We're seeing new companies come out with new things. I'm not gonna say daily, because many of them as you know, the Intel, a fat kid is f a d, a 510 K compliant. And a lot of these procedures have not gone to that degree to actually have those kits have an FDA approval? What innovations or changes are you most excited about that? You see they're coming along Dr. Pinkston
Dr. James Pinkston
rather than a product or a treatment, I think that the thing that is most exciting is learning how we can tailor the things we are currently doing to a specific person with the annual regenerative medicine conferences that I'm attending now. That's a lot of the focus. Okay, well, we do these platelet rich plasma injections. Some people do well, some don't, let's understand why they do well, or why they don't do well and have a more individualized treatment. So it's not just, for example, platelet rich plasma, it's not just a LiPo aspirant using the Intel FAT system, it's one that designed for you tailored towards you, and has a even better chance of success. And they're, they're coming along. We're it's interesting to see the presentations of the factors that we think that are helping to decide who doesn't respond or how well somebody responds. So that's what I'm looking forward to. And even more basic than that, understanding more thoroughly how the treatments work. We do know, generally how and why things work. But even more on like a cellular level or on a a biochemistry level, the more we understand that I think the better outcomes and we'll just continue to have.
Greg Voisen
Well, your non surgical Orthopedic Center in Asheville is truly an awesome place for people for everybody who's listening. Dr. Pinkston is the founder of Asheville, non surgical orthopedics. Again, you can go there through Asheville in s o.com. To learn more, and he and I were talking before the show at the bottom of each one of his website pages you can ask a question, and I would encourage any of the listeners out there that are in the Asheville, beautiful Asheville and surrounding areas. If you'd like to reach out to Dr. Pinkston definitely shoot him a in a email that uh, basically he would get an either he or one of his staff will get back to you, I'm most certain. And I just want to thank Sal max for helping make this show available. Cell Mex is the manufacturer of the intelli fat kits. And again, for all of those who are listening, if you want more information about the Intel effect kits, or if you're a physician, you can go to www.cellmyx c-e-l-l-m-y-x To learn more about that as well. Dr. Pinkston, it's been a pleasure having you on our show to speak about regenerative medicine, wellness, and the care and feeding of the body. The best way to do that, that's the best way I can say it. I appreciate your time, and your knowledge and your wisdom. And some of the things that you're doing that are really very cutting edge that a lot of doctors are not doing. And I think that your journey down this path was quite interesting to learn about how these things were you were exposed to it very early in your residency, and how it really influenced you. And how positively it influenced you. Do you have any final words for our listeners out there who might be interested in looking at alternatives?
Dr. James Pinkston
I would say primarily, is another thing that I encourage often be an advocate for your own health. I would say educate yourself. If you're here listening, you are already doing that you're trying to figure out different ways to approach problems, how to be a healthier, better you. And you know, I applaud you for that. But that extends even into your appointments with your physicians or other medical care providers. Know that that you're in charge and seek out alternatives. And I think that you will, you will be doing yourself a favor, to just try to understand what's being offered, why it's being offered, and in looking into any alternatives that might exist.
Greg Voisen
Very good advice. And again, I want to thank you for being on the show and taking the time with us today. Appreciate you again, is Dr. James Pinkston, his practices Asheville non-surgical orthopedics. We will have a link in the blog to his website. And as well we'll have a link to cell Max who helped us sponsor this show. Thanks so much for being on inside personal growth. I appreciate it so much.
Dr. James Pinkston
Absolutely great. Thanks.
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Inside Personal Growth with Greg Voisen · Podcast 1109: Get Better at Anything with Scott H. YoungWe have a returning guest today and he is Scott Young. He’s been here during our 742nd episode for his book Ultralearning: Master Hard Skills, Outsmart the Competition, and Accelerate Your Career. And now, he’s back to talk about his newly released book Get Better at Anything: 12 Maxims for Mastery.
Scott is a Wall Street Journal bestselling author, podcast host, computer programmer and an avid reader. Since 2006, he has published weekly essays on his website to help people learn and think better. He has written over 1000 articles, and a few free e-books and guides exploring what it means to get more from life. The theme of posts ranges from productivity to learning to the meaning of life.
Scott’s works have been featured in The New York Times, BBC, TEDx, Pocket, Business Insider and more. Then, beyond writing, entrepreneurship and life philosophy, his interests include programming, travel, cooking and teaching myself anything I can.
As for Scott, life revolves around learning—in school, at our jobs, even in the things we do for fun. Yet, learning is often mysterious. Thus, Scott explores why it’s so difficult for people to learn new skills. He explores the science of skill acquisition, illustrating the core principles that can help anyone get better at the things that matter most. In his new book Get Better at Anything, he argues that three factors – See, Do, Feedback, must be met to make advancement possible. Scott also offers 12 maxims to improve the way we learn.
You may learn more about Scott, listen to his podcast’s episodes, and check out his works by visiting his website.
Thanks and happy listening!
You may also refer to the transcripts below for the full transciption (not edited) of the interview.
Interview Transcipt -Not EditedEmailDownloadNew TabGreg Voisen
Okay. Hey, well, welcome back to Inside Personal Growth. This is Greg Voisen, host of Inside Personal Growth. And, you know, Scott, this is Scott Young joining us from Vancouver. Scott, say hi.
Scott Young
Hi. Thank you for having me.
Greg Voisen
I always enjoy having returning author guests. Now Scott reached out to about his new book, which we're going to be talking about here in a second. But I want to mention to my audience, and we'll put in the show notes. Scott was on this podcast for podcast 742, which is about 400 podcasts ago, for a book called Ultralearning: Master Hard Skills, Outsmart the Competition, and Accelerate Your Career with Scott Young, he got lots of good play on that particular one. And I know he helped will on this one as well. So I want my listeners to know about that, Scott. So, we'll put a link to that as well. Do you have a copy of the book there with you today that you can hold up the new book? The new
Scott Young
The new book? No, unfortunately, we're real close. So we're recording this about two weeks or three weeks before the books do and my copies are set to arrive Friday, I would love nothing more than to hold a physical one in my hand and show it okay, I was well, I was chastising the publishers about not having one ready for me, but they will be ready by the time this airs. So okay, just you'll have to you have to use AI to do certain one in my hand.
Greg Voisen
All right, we'll do. Well, that will be there, that's for certain we will have it on the screen for everybody. But I'm gonna let him know a little bit very little bit about you. But most importantly about this book. You are a Wall Street Journal, bestselling author, author, as I said, of a book called Ultralearning. He's got a podcast host, he's a computer programmer, an avid reader. And in 2006, he's published weekly essays to help people learn and think better. His work has been featured in The New York Times, pocket, and also pocket and Business Insider, on the BBC. And at TEDx, among other outlets. He says that he doesn't promise to have all the answers just a place to start. And as I said, he lives in Vancouver. And for all of you're trying to guess at this point, the new book is called Get Better at Anything. That's the book that we're speaking about. And if you go to his website, and that's scotthyoung, there's got to put the H in there y-o-u-n-g.com. There, you can learn more about the book, you can learn more about Scott. And you can learn more about getting better at anything. Also, Scott has teamed up with Cal Newport, who's been on the show, and they did a program, it's a learning course. And we'll put a link to that as well. called Life of focus. It's really fascinating. And I think this whole thing revolves around people, really learning how to focus and how to move distraction out of their life. And that brings me to kind of your introduction concepts and getting better at anything. Scott, in the book, you talk about three factors for getting better at anything, see, do and feedback, can you briefly explain how these factors interact, and why they're critical to mastery? Yeah,
Scott Young
Yeah, so these three factors, I mean, it sounds very simple. But there's sort of a shorthand for this, like immense body of research that I was trying to cover in, in the book, and see is coming from the idea that most of what we know comes from other people, most of the knowledge that we have the skills we have, we acquire from learning and studying from other people. And so really, the amount of creativity and problem solving we have is really the tip of a much larger iceberg of knowledge that we acquire from people that we know. And so the thing that I talked about in the book is that the ease in which we can learn from other people, if the environment that you're in enables you to learn from other people more easily, that can make a huge difference, not just in your ability, but the ability of an entire field to progress. So I start off with this example, a little bit of a fun example of Tetris players were in the beginning of the game, when people were fairly disconnected from each other. The actual proficiency people reached was not that high. Whereas now you have like 12-year-old kids, 13-year-old kids just doing things that are incredible. And it's because the internet has enabled them to learn from each other. Do is the idea that of course, to get better at things we need practice, but not just any kind of practice. You need the right kind of practice. So I cover in the book, a lot of research about what is Practice help with, and what are the ways that sometimes our own brains get in the way that we try to do things for practice that make it easier on ourselves, that actually hinders our own growth. And then finally, feedback, the ability to learn from our mistakes, to learn from corrections to learn from interacting with the environment. And so I cover some of the research and they're showing about how necessary feedback is for getting real mastery or real proficiency in many fields.
Greg Voisen
What's interesting, your personal background is you were going to college I think we're I read somewhere, and then you gave it up because you wanted to pursue this whole area around learning. I think it might be interesting for our listeners to know a little bit about your journey, because you really have an interesting one. It wasn't like this typical guy that graduates from Harvard and says, Hey, you, I'm this, I'm this, this, you know, knowledgeable guy, or from Stanford or something like that. You took an unfamiliar path to getting here. Sure. Can you tell the listeners a bit about that? Yeah,
Scott Young
I'd happy to I mean, anyone who can go back and wants to listen to the show we did about Ultra learning, I certainly talked about it more than So, for me, I went to school, I graduated, I did go through college and graduate with a business degree. And I graduated and like a lot of people, I felt like I studied the wrong subject. I thought that I wanted to study business. But I really felt like technology, the world of programming, this kind of thing was the future. I was doing stuff online already. I wanted to know more about it. But I didn't want to go back to school. So I did a project. This was sort of the first thing that brought me some internet attention. internet fame, was a project I called the MIT challenge, which was learning MIT's four year computer science curriculum, over 12 months. So this was a project that I did now over 10 years ago. So I'm really dating myself. This is something I did in my early 20s. And it was the start of really an obsession about learning. So I did a project after that learning multiple languages. It was a project we called the year without English, a friend and I, we traveled around the world for a year, only speaking the language of the country, we were in and, and learn a bit of Spanish, Portuguese, Mandarin Chinese, and some Korean. And I've since done projects for quantum mechanics and portrait drawing and all sorts of other stuff. And, and really over the last, I would say, maybe five to six years, sort of starting with Ultra learning. And really, since Ultra learning, I've been doing like this intensive, deep dive into the science of learning itself. And so I think that really culminates in this book where, you know, it's not just my personal experiences, but really trying to give the reader a bird's eye view of everything that scientists have discovered, over the last, you know, up to a century really of research on how we learn how we acquire skills, what enables that and what's holding us back. And, you know, it's a complicated area, there's lots of contention and debate still. But I think if you can appreciate the broad strokes of that, it's very helpful for you in trying to get better at what you want to get better at.
Greg Voisen
Most certainly. Now, you know, you're talking about how we learn and how you immersed yourself in learning, based on what you just said, going to a country and only being able to speak in that language. You talked about the MIT project that you did you that you did. You talked about Tetris already, and how kids are, like mastering Tetris. And I think from the outside looking in, sometimes to people, when you talk about it, it's simple. It looks a lot simpler than it really is. Let's put it that way. And you mentioned that most of what we know comes from other people. How can someone effectively discern which influences or mentors to follow when trying to kind of improve in a specific area because there's so many people out there when you look at the millions of YouTube videos where we can learn From right, there's all these various programs now like this reflect note taking one, the second brain guy who's telling you know how to do you know those kinds of things? And it's Yeah, go for two. Yeah, yeah, go right. And you probably know Thiago. Yeah. All right. And all of it's designed to get us to a point where we can be more effective bull at the same time, more creative, more innovative, more ways to think, in unique, and I'm going to say remarkable ways. How do we discerned from these people that we really should be following and mentors? Thiago would be one of them. Right? It's like, okay, I'm gonna get my second brain. I'm going to follow Diego. Right. And the reality is, is how much of that para pa ra Are we really using? Yeah,
Scott Young
I mean, I think so the c component that I talked about that book, I think it's I think it's more fundamental than that. So obviously, there's people like me, and yourself and Thiago, that kind of sit in this ecosystem. And we are kind of advice givers. So we sort of sit above the specific details of your job, your life, your skill, and try to give broad advice, like I'm writing a book that's about learning kind of, in general, it's not about you know, how to become a really good JavaScript programmer, or how to, you know, become a really good portrait painter. But in reality, like what we need when we're actually improving is a lot of fairly specific information. And so I think the advice givers and people like Thiago myself, we have an important role in nudging people in the right direction of offering tools and strategies. But I think what I'm really trying to express in this book of this see idea is the very detailed, specific kind of nitty gritty information for particular skills. That's so important. And so, you know, using this Tetris example, it wasn't just that, you know, people had some broad general ideas about, okay, how to practice it weren't available. It was like super specific techniques, like, how do you hold your finger on the button so that you can make it, you know, move fast enough. So you can move these pieces at these high levels like this is, this is super specific stuff to Tetris. And similarly, you know, even as an author right now, like I'm part of a network of other authors, and people are talking about, like, hyper specific things like about publishing contracts, and like, who to publish with and how you can set up certain deals and stuff. These are not relevant to other fields. But if you don't have that knowledge, if you're sort of, in the outs on the book publishing show, you don't know that you're gonna have a harder time breaking in. And so they see ideas about how you can get immersed in networks of people who have quite detailed knowledge about the thing that you're trying to get good at, whether that's your career, or your hobby, or just a subject you want to do, so that you can acquire that from other people and how, you know, really, if you are in the right environments, the right workplaces, the right places, that's going to be facilitated a lot more, and it's going to affect how you are able to get better at things. Well,
Greg Voisen
let's face it, you and I are living in a world now that's been heavily influenced by artificial intelligence. Matter of fact, my son's master's degree from UC Irvine was in AI, and he now is an executive at Adobe. And as we see companies like Adobe, being able to create images, right online that you know, you just tell it what you want, it pops up some kind of image, or people writing books fully using AI, or doing research. Where do you believe as somebody who's in getting better at anything? I brought this up to my wife, because you know, we were discussing this morning about our human knowledge versus our machine learning. Yeah. And where do you actually see this intersection? Because it's an interesting topic to talk about, are we really headed to the point in business and in our personal lives, where we're gonna go to chat GBT or some other, you know, generative AI situation and start pulling all of our facts and relying on them?
Scott Young
Yeah, I mean, it's, it's wild times I like I've been working on this book for a number of years and chat. GPT and, well, really the GPT that came before it, but also chat GPT I think it just blew people away. I mean, I think if you go back a decade, no one's really predicting this. No one's thinking, Oh, well, you just, you know, give a specific type of machine learning model the entire text of the internet and they can have like, human sounding conversations that you had, do all these sorts of things. So I think this failure of prediction should be humbling for people pundits, like me or but even experts who are you know, you know, eminent in their field about making predictions about like, what's gonna happen 1020 years from now, so I won't say what I think is going to be the case with with chat GPT or large language models or whatever comes next, but what I will says it, if you look at kind of the history of technology, you see this pattern of new technologies coming up that replace some human cognitive labor. And when the technology is first developed, people are very much fixated on the substitution effect, the idea that this new technology can replace things that previously were only done by human minds. But what's often ignored or is really unknown is the complementary effect that by creating that new technology, it opens up new vistas of cognitive potential that wasn't there before. So a really simple example. So when we go back to ancient Greece, Socrates is decrying the invention of a very pernicious technology that was going to rob human ingenuity and effort, which was paper. Because we're before if you know, you weren't writing things down, you had to memorize speeches, you had to memorize this oral transmission, this human knowledge, and now you have paper, you can just write it down, you don't actually have to exercise that faculty of memory. And Socrates is saying, this is a bad thing, we're going to lose our ability to memorize things, which was so important for knowledge transmission back then. And the funny thing is, you can look at that as being kind of quaint, but he was actually right. If you go back to the ancient Greeks, they had these like elaborate mnemonic systems for memorizing huge amounts of information because of this need for an oral transmission. And we don't do that anymore. We, you know, we write things down, and we remember it poorly. And we look it up, and we have to, but what he was focusing on was the substitution that there was this human cognitive ability of memory palaces and pneumonic techniques for memorizing, you know, long speeches, things like the Iliad and the Odyssey, that we're going to be replaced by paper. But what he was ignorant of him wasn't aware of was how well once you're able to write things down, the amount of knowledge that you can have, the amount of knowledge that can be built up in a culture in a society just grows exponentially. So now, you know, the idea that you would memorize all human knowledge is just ridiculous. That's a fantasy, you can't even read all of it, right. And so we are much better off as a society. And the cognitive demands on people are actually much higher because of this new opportunity. And so when I think about things like chat, GPT, I think about, you know, there's been some recent studies that show that, for instance, with programmers who have large language models, it's the weaker programmers that do better because they're able to perform at a higher level, whereas the expert programmers don't really use the LMS that much. But again, this is focusing on the substitute effect, this is focusing on will in the short term, where no one's really familiar with these tools and knows how to use them. And as you know, they haven't really integrated themselves into our lives. It's the people who don't really know that much to get most of the advantage of these large language models. But in the long term, it's hard to say it's hard to say, because who knows what kinds of, you know, feats of intellectual prowess, things with knowledge, creativity, are going to be generated in the wake of, you know, these tools being widely available. And so I'm actually kind of excited because I think far from robbing, you know, human ingenuity and creativity, it's going to be totally new terrain, where there's going to be new skills and professions that didn't exist 10 years ago, as a result, well, you know,
Greg Voisen
I personally believe it can take many mundane tasks that we performed, and open our minds up for much more creative things that we do, like, you know, writing a contract or something like that, or getting an outline for a PowerPoint or something where the true creativity goes into what is now in that PowerPoint, right, and, and how I evolve it and how I make it better. I think it's just going to allow us to keep making things better and better. That's my personal, humble opinion. Now in that, and that brings me to you, you talk about self education, because it's like, okay, we've got this brain that weighs three or four pounds and our skull and, you know, neurotransmitters are firing and wiring and hard wiring and doing, but one of the things is that essence that I see kind of is just problem solving. Okay, so as a human species, we've always been somebody in search of problems, can explore how individuals tackle tackle difficult problems. And what are some of the common pitfalls that people face when trying to solve complex problems on their own? Well, in
Scott Young
writing this book, the first chapter, which I really had to open with, because it's such a fundamental mental model, that I think if you don't see it this way, it's hard to make sense of a lot of the other learning research. But this was a model created by Alan Newell and Herbert Simon in the 1970s, where they published this landmark book called human problem solving. And basically they he redefined what problems only means they sort of took the study of it and said that what it means to solve problems by looking at tons of people solving problems is that we create something they call a problem space. Now a problem space is a bit of an abstract idea. But the idea is that it's essentially all the moves you can do to go from the start to the finish. So I like to analogize it to amaze. When you're in a maze, you know where you are, you know where you'd like to be. But you don't know exactly how to get there. Because there's, you can go left or right, you can't go directly to the endpoint. Now, in a maze, the walls of the maze are kind of physical, it's a very tangible representation of a space. Whereas you can think about problem spaces as being more abstract than that. So if you're trying to solve a Rubik's Cube, for instance, the space is not like the physical space of the cube, but the configurations because every time you rotate it, you switch the problem into a different state. And so his idea or their idea, rather, was that when we're solving problems, we're trying to first construct a space. So we're trying to represent the problem in some way that we can make moves to solve it. And then we're using this sort of library of these are the different moves that I can make to get from A to point B. And what I think is relevant to take away from that is that there's two ways that we solve problems. One is using kind of generic problem solving methods. And these methods appear to be fairly universal, they're not something that we necessarily need to be taught, they're things that we kind of do almost instinctively. And they are things like, hill climbing is one of them, which is where you just basically try to make it better. So if you're writing an essay, you keep making small edits, to make the whole essay better, until you get to a better essay, or you're trying to get from point A to point B, you're just like trying to get closer on the compass direction to that direction. But then, the real way that we solve problems, and I think this is I think the real insight from their approach. And what we've learned from there is that the real advantage we have as a human species is that we have all these things that call strong methods, which are basically tricks that we know for particular situations to move forward in the problem space. So solving a Rubik's Cube just through trial and error is almost impossible. There's so many configurations, there's no way you could do it. But if you've learned the right method, you can solve the Rubik's Cube in under a minute. There's like tons of YouTube tutorials where people can do it. And so the idea here, and this is related to this C factor is that when you are trying to solve a problem, the very first step you should do is how do people solve problems of this type? What are the experts doing that solve problems that are very similar to this, because if you can build your knowledge, your creativity, on top of what is already known about solving problems in this space, you're gonna make much, much faster progress than if you're doing things through trial and error, or through your weak methods that we talked about, you know, these generic processes for solving problems.
Greg Voisen
That's a good explanation. I don't want to thank you for that. Because I think, you know, when we're solving problems, starting the book off that way, was a good way for people to get an idea. I think frequently we get stuck, right? Sometimes in us talk about the how creativity and copying, and you assert that creativity begins with copying. How can learners balance the act of copying as a form of learning without stifling their own creativity?
Scott Young
Right? Well, I mean, this is this is another. So first, we're talking about how when you solve problems, a lot of what you do to solve those problems comes from other people's lives. The first factor, right, you're at it copying. Yeah, in a broad sense. I mean, obviously, it takes understanding it takes thinking so I don't want to just say problem solving is just copying. But the idea of copying this is this is something I think is very powerful is that often we make this tension between true creativity, original originality, and understanding and replicating the works of other people, like, you know, there's someone who's being derivative, and there's someone who's being original. And we put those in opposite poles, when really, I like to think of them as a progressive continuum, that anyone who does anything really original has started off by understanding kind of the work that's already been done. There's very few people that enter a domain having zero experience and create a useful contribution. And part of this is because of what I just talked about. And this is why I had to introduce this problem solving thing is that you know, to solve a Rubik's Cube, for instance, if you know nothing about it, the amount of configurations is huge. Just trying things out by trial and error. You're never gonna get them in the same place. Now, you might with some intelligence, figure out the right way to solve a Rubik's Cube, but it's much easier to learn how someone else doesn't. And in this chapter here, where I talk about creativity comes from sorry, creativity begins with copying thing is yeah, the idea hear is that there's a lot of research showing that learning from worked examples. So this is someone else, demonstrating how to do something is a much faster method of learning than beginning with problem solving. And so in a lot of domains from mathematics tonight, I talk about artistic instruction here as well. This sort of apprenticeship model of seeing someone do it, being able to fully understand being able to do it, the way they do it themselves, is a foundation for doing original work. Like kinda, you have to know the rules before you can break them. But like having that foundation is the recipe for creativity. Because once you're able to do that, creativity is often just making a few small changes to an established body of work. So instead of doing it this way, you do it another way, or you break this convention instead of sticking to it, rather than, you know, a complete reinvention which you throw out all the rules, and you start off with something completely from scratch.
Greg Voisen
Well, getting better at anything, what you're doing is kind of laying the ground rules in this book for getting better at anything. And I think that's what's important. In other words, if we go seek a new hobby of some type, and we want to master it, there are ways we can do that. I've always told my well wife that I'm got a lot of grit and determination. And if I'm going to repair something around the house, first thing I do is go to YouTube to look for a channel where somebody's done it to see what's happening. And I'm I mean, look, there's millions of people that do what I do. But still, they can't repair it. Right. So when they're done, it's like, oh, my gosh, you know, where do I go? Next, what you do is take the knowledge you have from things that you've already experienced, add it to what you saw on the video to actually do that. And that's where kind of the copying like somebody says, well, I'll give you a shortcut to go do something or get better at it. And one of these things was, you talked about in your was feedback utilization. And I think that's where this comes in is because when I go to YouTube, I'm looking for feedback. I'm looking for like, Oh, I was on the right path. You know, I just missed a couple of steps. Maybe I should go do this. So what would you say the some of the strategies you'd recommend for somebody to seek out to utilize feedback effectively, especially in the fields where feedback is not readily available. Now, that's not YouTube. Because you know, YouTube, you can say, I got this plumbing issue, and you're gonna find 800 guys on there that have put something on about how to fix some plumbing issue. Right, you following me? Yeah. So but you're saying this is not where it's readily available? So how do I get feedback loop in those areas? Well, I
Scott Young
mean, I think when we're talking about what your experiences were, like repairing things, and having a YouTube video, I think an important factor, which is, you know, related to feedback, but is, I think, even more fundamental, is that in order to be able to use that example. So you're talking about repairing something, another example I can think of is that, following an online recipe, how many times if you're not a good cook, and someone shows you a recipe online, you try to make it and it's just a disaster, and like why I follow the same steps, right. And part of it is that in order to be able to copy in order to be able to make use of that, you have to come at it with some background knowledge. So you already have background knowledge for repairing tons of other things. And so what you're doing is you're not only following the steps, but you're filling in the sort of implicit assumptions that they make in that thing. So even if they try to spell things out in the most minut detail possible, well, maybe your pipe isn't the same as the pipe that they had, or you don't have quite the same wrench, or, well, this thing actually got a little bit stuck. And should you try to force it open? Or is that going to break something, these kinds of little difficulties, you're filling in with your background knowledge, repairing things. And so I think this is a big part, again, it goes back to our problem solving ability. Whenever we meet a new situation, we're always having kind of the union of our background knowledge and whatever knowledge is supplied by the situation or in this case, you know, from additional instruction or additional advice from the outside. And so building up that background knowledge is huge. And that background knowledge, again, mostly comes from this earlier process of seeing other people and doing practice and getting feedback. And you know, getting feedback. Yeah, sorry, keep going. Well,
Greg Voisen
well, I was gonna say something, you know, because I've had so many people provide me accolades about, you know, like my interview process for a podcast out, and I and I really appreciate that, even though at this point, I have to just accept it and say, Well, I can always be better. i There's something I could do that was better. And you know, you talk about mastery and teach it. Now, one of the things people have asked me to do is like, Okay, can you teach me how you did those 1100 podcasts, right? And what did you learn? But what I really Get out of these podcasts is I get the knowledge and expertise of somebody like Scott H Jung. And where I really do is I apply what I learned from you. Now, most people say, Well, you're doing that, because, you know, Scott wants to sell another book. And I say, Yeah, I like to help authors sell books, but at the same time, I'm very curious. And that's the other thing, Curiosity is a huge element. And so without, you know, detaining any longer, how do you teach to deepen understanding, that leads to, you know, one's greater learning rate, in other words, just their their blossoming of their learning. And there's got to be an element here, Scott, where Curiosity just has to be a huge element of somebody wanting to dig in here and learn and learn and learn and become better and better and better, so that they hone this skill and master the skill, right? Ultra learning.
Scott Young
Yeah, I mean, I think I think you're right. Like, to me, curiosity isn't is an issue of motivation, like what motivates people to learn things, what motivates people to improve? And I actually wrote sort of a research oriented article on my website, because I was very interested in this question of motivation, like, what motivates people, what motivates people to learn what holds people back? Like, why is there some people in the class that are just like, eager to soak up knowledge? And other people are like, this is so boring, you know, it's not boring to some people? Well, why? Why is it boring to some people, right. And so I wrote this complete guide to motivation, it's free on my website, if you Google Scottie Chun, complete guide, no motivation. You don't have to buy anything. It's a some almost book length essay on on the research and motivation. And there's a couple things that come up, and I think they're relevant. So one of them related to curiosity, and I think this is fascinating is that curiosity tends to be a kind of perverse sort of motivation, because most of our motivations are kind of drive like motivations, that you have a drive for something, and then you get something that satiated. So when you're hungry, you eat some food, and then you're less hungry, and then the motivation goes down, or you're thirsty, and then you drink some water and you're less thirsty. And a lot of motivations work that way, right there homeostatic curiosity seems to be almost the opposite, that you're more curious about things you know more about. And that can seem paradoxical, because obviously, you know, if there's 100 facts about something a, you know, zero, you know, less than someone who knows 99. But that's just really not how knowledge works. That the issue is that when you don't know anything about something, it's also impossible for you to formulate good questions about it. When you know more about it, then you can ask good questions. And so one of my real joys has been like diving into the research where researchers can formulate questions that they're just not even articulable to someone who doesn't have a depth of knowledge in the field, because you don't even understand what the question is asking. But once you have that knowledge, you can be like, Oh, that is a really interesting question. Why does that work that way? Or why is it this way, and not that way, and that can drive people for their entire career. So I think the first ingredient to curiosity is kind of somewhat paradoxically, to start learning more. When you read more books, when you have a greater understanding more questions come up that fuels that curiosity. The second,
Greg Voisen
I'll add in there, read more books and listen to more podcasts.
Scott Young
Even better, you get to have these conversations and listen to as well. The second thing that I think is important, I cover it in this book in the in the third wall, Fourth Chapter. The third maxim is this idea of self efficacy. So the psychologist Albert Bandura, pioneered this concept. And it's basically the idea that to be motivated to do something, it doesn't just have to be the case that the outcome is something you find rewarding or valuable. But also, you have to feel like you can successfully take the actions necessary to achieve that outcome. And that's pretty obvious. But it does mean that there is a certain self reflexive quality to motivation that when you are motivated to do something, and you know how to do it, you do it and you get a bit of practice, and you get better at it. And then you feel more motivated to do it. Because you're more confident that you'll achieve the outcome the next time you do it. Whereas if you try it and you fail, or you try it, and you don't know how to do it, you no one's shown you how to do it, then you get stuck, and you've experienced failure and you're you know what that outcome is out of my grasp, I'm not going to be able to understand this book, even if I do try to read it or I'm not going to be able to learn this skill, even if I do practice it for two months. And when you have those beliefs, they become a self fulfilling prophecy. And so I think self efficacy is another huge part. I mean, part of my journey and learning how to learn was really, you know, taking some of these projects happening to get some success with them and those fueling motivation to try new projects and try new projects. If it had been the case that you know, those first early projects I did, were just total disasters, maybe a million Yeah, you know, this whole learning things is devoting my life to maybe I'm going to work on something else, it's a little bit more tractable for me. So I think building success, building that base of knowledge, that background knowledge, all the things that we talked about, they're really self reinforcing cycles. So you get more curious by learning more, and you build this motivation to learn by learning more. So it's really something if you start making that investment in 1020 years down the road, you're going to be you know, like yourself 1100 podcasts in hungry for more,
Greg Voisen
I think you get an insatiable appetite for even if the peripheral, I'm gonna call it peripheral knowledge, right? People can say, Well, I'm a, I'm not a master at anything, right. But I have this broad, broad background through a lot of things. But you can connect the dots, right, and you learn how to connect dots better, the broader and more expansive your education is. Now I'm not saying that you don't become a specialist at something and maybe become a neurosurgeon. And then everything you want to learn about neurosurgery and how it works and what you want to do. But you did say in the book, improvement is not a straight line. And what advice do you have for the learners and listeners who feel discouraged? You just said it a second ago, you get discouraged, and you go, I'm going to kick the can and forget that one, because I'm not going to be able to do anything about it. By plateaus in skills development. I, I've gotten a hook the lately on Peter A TIA. Okay. So Peter does a podcast around he has a new book out outlived longevity. And he's really, you know, all the way down to muscle testing. And, and I mean, you want to get into the the nitty gritty of glucose and how your glucose is doing and what's happening. And I think that, you know, somebody that's that driven, like Dr. Peter, a TIA to want to understand both the physical, emotional, spiritual, psychological elements of how our body works, is is cool. You know, some people would call him crazy, right? On the other hand, he's gotten to plateaus and even emits it. But he had to force himself to dig deeper or find another person who knew more about it than him. Right? Yeah. So my question is, what would you tell somebody right now is maybe hit that plateau, and maybe he's a little discouraged.
Scott Young
I mean, I think plateaus happen for all sorts of reasons. So I think you know, what you're talking about, you know, there's a lot of areas of life where there are diminishing returns to things, you know, if I am trying to get in shape, for instance, and I have, you know, never exercised ever, and I'm like completely out of shape. Even doing something like you know, just keeping a step count and walking a little bit or, you know, doing a little bit of jogging is probably going to have enormous health benefits. Whereas if I'm already, you know, an ultra marathoner, and then you know, to just get that little tiny bit of extra fitness could be quite a bit of work. And I think that's normal. So in that sense, is kind of a plateau just because once you've already gotten to 99%, getting that last 1%, or another point 1% is, you know, maybe as much work as going from 40 to 50%. That's just how progress works in a lot of domains. But in in this book, and what I talk about in particular, is that there is a common pattern for a lot of skills, that when you keep doing them, when you keep practicing them over and over again, what you're doing is you're making the sort of procedures, the sort of mental tools that you have for performing that skill, more and more automatic, you're making them easier and easier to apply. Like you're kind of more deeply and deeply ingraining, those habits of thinking those ways of doing things. And that has two effects. One effect is it makes it easier and easier for you to perform the skill. So if you think about something like driving a car, for instance, it's something that was maybe excruciating ly difficult the first time you're doing it, you're like, Okay, where do I put my hands? And like, how much do I turn the steering wheel and pump the brakes and this kind of thing, to where you can just do it so automatically, that you end up driving somewhere you didn't want to because you got distracted, and you just went on your normal commute, but you had to turn off in a different place. You weren't even thinking about it that hap
Greg Voisen
or you're already just turn the autopilot on your Tesla and let you
Scott Young
know, but I mean, I mean, even if you're listening to this podcast right now, maybe at this point, you're like, Oh, I missed my turn off because I was listening to what he was saying and I wasn't paying it. So this is a common tendency skills, but what it means is that like I am the very automatic drunk driver, I drove here this morning. I wasn't really thinking about driving, but am I a really good driver? Now? Probably not. There's probably a lot better I could be as a driver and part of the diff faculty is that because you find some way to do something, even if it's not the best. And it becomes more and more ingrained, more automatic, that learning that getting better at some point requires a kind of an active effort to, in some ways unlearn to like, take an old habit and resurface it and make it better. And this can be difficult, this can be challenging. I talked about the research of Anders Ericsson, which was all about how, you know, elite performers are constantly doing this, they're constantly finding some aspect of their performance, that's good enough, that's been good enough for years. That's something that an outside person who's not an expert probably wouldn't even care about. And trying to rebuild it, tweak it to make it better, so that they can reach a new level of performance. And so
Greg Voisen
it's interesting, it's interesting, you say that, because I was speaking with my wife, and she's been a piano teacher and a flute teacher, saxophone teacher for many years for kids and adults. And she in somebody asked her, they said, Well, do we have to know anything about playing the piano. And she says, I'd rather that you came to me as a clean slate with nothing. Because the reality is, is learning an instrument like that, when you have to have hand eye coordination, you have to be able to read music, you have to have put foot pedal coordination. You know, there's been many papers written about it. It's it's a very challenging instrument to learn, right? So she said, she really likes to find the the people that were their minds haven't been bent in a different direction.
Scott Young
To exactly right, right, so
Greg Voisen
to learn it? Well, we've given a little bit of time to technology and advice in how AI maybe or the internet is going to affect it. What do you see in the near future or far future, that the role of this is going to play in human learning changing our lives over the next decades, because where we are now is people like you like me, 1000s, we can put up a course and you know, 10 lesson course, and we just push buttons, and we listen to videos. And then there's some worksheets, or we have interactive trainings, or whatever it is we're doing, it seems to be it's getting more and more immersive. Now, I would think with AI, that AI is really going to change the game of learning, especially in learning modules, where, hey, it's Scott and Cowell talking about XYZ. Oh, by the way, here's the AI, you can just ask it a question and it's already going to be able to respond back to us in Kalin. And Scott, don't have to sit there and ask it, you know, respond.
Scott Young
It's very interesting. I have a lot of I have a lot of thoughts about technology and learning. And I think one thing you can say, as a sort of an overall trend of learning research and edtech, maybe over the last few decades is that often there's been like some new technology that is heralded as like this is going to transform education, and it often doesn't. And part of that, I think, is the fact that despite these advances in AI, despite these advances in internet and technology stuff, the for the average person, the average student, learning just remains such an important like human social relationship. So we can definitely make apps these days that would teach kids the basics of how to read, but the app itself is not going to force them to sit down and do the kind of cognitive work of learning the skills and to that they need the peers, they need the teacher, they need the social environment to create that. So in some ways, I think, you know, I talked about this in Ultra learning, that, you know, the future really belongs to people who are able to have the self regulation skills to like teach themselves things to be able to like, Okay, I want to learn this subject. And they're able to use these tools, they're able to use AI, they're able to use these things to get themselves to learn. And I think the kind of I don't know whether it's a tragedy, but the difficulty of that is just that for a lot of people, they're still going to be relying on this social environment. So it remains to be seen what AI is going to be able to add in those environments just because I think so much of human learning is so intrinsically social that not that we're not like cognitively able to learn from the AI tutor, but whether we are going to be motivated to like sit in front of a computer and prompt and texted all day to give us their questions. The second thing that I think is important and I think is also relevant to our question of like this substitution and new vistas of cognitive skill, is that because these large language models are so trained on the text corpus like book knowledge, basically, I think that's going to make an increasing premium on the kind of difficult to write down expert knowledge that tends to be encoded in practices in people's, you know, intuition and wisdom of the field, this kind of like hands on knowledge that is often you know, it's just in the mind of some person who is an expert at this. And so I think in some ways, is going to make us even more reliant on social networks on the kind of facilitation of learning from other people. Because you know, the kind of, you can just type it down and write it down, there's going to be a large language model that's going to learn how to do that at some point, because there's detailed instructions for it. Whereas the, you know, difficult to describe how to knowledge that you learn from observation and practice is going to remain kind of opaque to that kind of machine learning model.
Greg Voisen
It's, it's interesting as with this dialogue has progressed with you and I, we come to this point where I want to wrap up and give the listeners because you call them the 12. Maxim's for mastery, right? And it makes me reflect back on George Leonard's interview with George was one of the founders, with another gentleman of epsilon, which is in Northern California here, and it's a, I don't want to call it experiential learning kind of service. And his book about mastery was was really fascinating. And the many things that he did repeat at that time, because this book is quite old. But yet, it it's, it's one of those things that you say 12, Maxim's for mastery. And it's mastery that he really honed in on of the practice of something on a regular basis, whether it was swimming, cycling, big teacher playing the piano, and I think you'll find a lot of this come back to practice. What are the if you were to leave our listeners with some of these Maxim's that you'd really want to drive home and say, Okay, guys, these are the things that I think would really help you. In accelerating your learning for something very hard mastering a very hard skill. What would be those three things that you would promise some from this book?
Scott Young
Yeah, I mean, I think what I would try to promise people and each of the Maxim's, the way I kind of organize them was that this was a sort of central concept, a central idea that if you understood it, it would give you some keys to unlocking, learning or improvement in your own life. So they're all built on kind of an established body of research around a particular idea and learning. So you know, we've talked about a couple of them. So the first one was problem solving as searches about this, like really fundamental idea of like, how do people solve problems? Why are some problems impossible to solve? Or some problems very difficult? How can we get better at solving problems. And then the creativity begins with copying is about cognitive load theory, but also this idea of, you know, learning from examples and learning from this sort of demonstrations of other people. You know, each of them covers in incense, their own little world, their own little, you know, I could have written an entire book about each of them about these ideas related to learning related to mastery, I think, if I were to give people kind of the, what I think they would get from the book, what I think would be most valuable to them, I think, probably the idea of the see do feedback loop. This is the idea of combining seeing from other people getting practicing around and getting feedback. This is a common element in many, many successful learning systems. And getting that feedback loop right. Getting those three elements, right is a huge part about making progress. The second thing is what I was talking about alluding to before is this idea of finding the right level of difficulty, you know, we talked about, you know, you're able to fix something that maybe other people aren't able to fix by watching a YouTube video because of this merger with your background knowledge, and the knowledge that's present in this situation. And so a lot of learning is about finding that sweet spot where you have enough background knowledge, you have enough skill to be able to make gains to make progress. If it's too hard, you're not going to be able to acquire new knowledge. If it's too easy, you're not going to grow. And then the final thing I think, which is related to the emotions, the motivations of it, we talked a little bit about self efficacy, about how building from Success builds that curiosity creates this sort of flywheel that keeps going and going. And I talked about at the end of the chapter about how fears and anxieties are also related on a similar principle that as we get exposure to things, our own negative emotion surrounding something reduces well. So I think diving deeper into that research, understanding those principles, I think could be helpful for someone in unlocking whether it's a barrier to getting better at something or just to give them the confidence to try something new.
Greg Voisen
Well, Scott, it's all was a pleasure having you on inside personal growth. And this book's gonna be a huge success, I can tell you because, you know, when you look at our work world today, and how diverse people have to be, to maintain and sustain what I could say, any vocation, because they're all expanding, particularly people that are in the programming world, like you have familiar already with authors, entrepreneurs, visionaries of any type, they're being thrown so many things on a regular basis every day. And they're trying to get better at fundamentally coming up with a response or a solution or an idea, or being creative or do something. And it's, it's become, I want to say relatively exponential in a lot of people's lives. Not everybody, of course, but probably for many of the people that would read your book. This is an area where they are going to say, hey, yeah, I got some really great ideas from how to get better at anything, right? And fundamentally, it's coming down to, how quickly can we learn? And how quickly can we draw from the resource pool up here, the resource pool on the computer, and the resource pool through other people, that we can rely on mentors, other folks, folks we can talk to to get feedback, you can take all three of those, put them together, and usually come up with a pretty good understanding of the decision you might want to make about something or the way you might want to go. I know when I go out and seek a new project, I'm usually looking at all those sources to fundamentally get an understanding and groundwork for it. But you've given us a tool, a really good to your book, get better. If anything, I'd also tell for all my listeners, we're going to have a link to altra learning, ultra learning was one of the predecessor books, but you have how many books out now?
Scott Young
Well, these are the two I've published with traditional publishers, but I also have four self published books that predated by a number.
Greg Voisen
So just go to Amazon, we'll put a link to it. Also go to Scott H. Jung there, you'll see articles, challenges, products, podcasts, you've got a plethora of things that you can sign up for, you can also get, you can sign up. I will say for those of you looking at this, and I'm sure it'll be taken down by then. But there was going to be some bonuses for pre ordering the book. But this podcast is going to come out after that. So you won't be able to get those bonuses anymore. But I want to thank you for being on the show and sharing your ideas. Scott, it's always a pleasure having you on and it was wonderful. And again, we'll put a link to life and focus. The actual course that Scott does, which you said is it a year long? Three months last
Scott Young
three months. This is of course we do with Cal Newport. So if you like his work to talking about deep work, digital minimalism, he just really slow productivity. It really builds on a lot of those ideas, which are obviously consonant with things that I talked about and get better at anything.
Greg Voisen
Awesome. Well, thank you for being on Inside Personal Growth and sharing it. Have a wonderful rest of your day in Vancouver. And I appreciate you being on the show.
Scott Young
Oh, yeah, great. Thanks for having me. Take care.
Greg Voisen
All right. Take care.
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Inside Personal Growth with Greg Voisen · Podcast Audio – Dr. James R. DotyIn a captivating episode of Inside Personal Growth, Dr. James Doty, neurosurgeon and author of “Mind Magic: The Neuroscience of Manifestation and How It Changes Everything,” shares profound insights into how our minds can shape our realities. This interview delves deep into the themes of compassion, neuroplasticity, and the power of intention.
Dr. Doty’s journey is both inspiring and enlightening. He describes his challenging upbringing, marked by poverty and family instability, and how these hardships shaped his understanding of the human condition. His experiences underline a central theme of his book: the transformative power of the mind and heart when aligned with compassion and mindfulness.
The discussion opens with Dr. Doty’s reflections on his new book “Mind Magic,” which explores how individuals can harness the principles of neuroscience to manifest change in their lives. He emphasizes the importance of belief and intention in altering our brain’s chemistry and pathways, a concept he illustrates with personal anecdotes and scientific research. One of the most compelling parts of the interview is Dr. Doty’s explanation of the neurological mechanisms behind manifestation. He introduces listeners to concepts such as the “salience network” of the brain, which filters significant data from the insignificant, allowing us to focus on what truly matters to us. This selective attention, he argues, is crucial for manifestation. Dr. Doty also touches on the impact of adverse childhood experiences (ACEs) and the role of dispositional optimism in overcoming negative circumstances.
Furthermore, the interview covers the practical applications of these theories. Dr. Doty discusses the development of apps and programs at The Center for Compassion and Altruism Research and Education at Stanford, which aim to reduce anxiety, stress, and burnout. These tools reflect his commitment to applying scientific understanding in practical, accessible ways to improve people’s lives globally. In addition to scientific discussion, the podcast is peppered with Dr. Doty’s personal reflections on success, happiness, and the journey to find inner peace. He shares poignant thoughts on how external achievements do not guarantee happiness and underscores the importance of inner work and self-compassion.
For our listeners seeking to deepen their understanding of how the mind can influence reality, Dr. Doty’s insights offer a powerful testament to the human capacity for change and healing. His stories and scientific explanations provide not just food for thought but practical guidance for those looking to embrace the path of personal growth and mindfulness. And as the episode concludes, Dr. Doty leaves us with a reminder of the power each person holds to not only transform their own lives but also to make a significant impact on the world through compassion and kindness. His message resonates deeply with the ethos of Inside Personal Growth, where we explore the art and science of personal achievement while striving to live richer, more fulfilling lives. For those intrigued by the intersection of neuroscience and personal development, “Mind Magic” is a must-read, offering enlightening insights and practical exercises that promise to empower and inspire.
You may learn more about Dr. James Doty‘s work and his new book through his website.
Happy listening!
You may also refer to the transcripts below for the full transciption (not edited) of the interview.
Interview Transcipt -Not EditedEmailDownloadNew TabGreg Voisen
Well, welcome back to Inside Personal Growth. Joining me from actually the Bay Area is Dr. James Doty. And he has a new book out which we're a little early here, but he's got what I call a proof copy. And it's called Magic Mind. And if you want to hold that up real quick, maybe our listeners here or on Zoom..
Dr. James R. Doty
It's actually Mind Magic, Mind Magic is that magic is backwards to you when you see it.
Greg Voisen
Mind magic. And if you look it up on Amazon now for all of my listeners, you can pre-order the book. And that would be a good thing to do if you'd like to do that. And I'm going to let you know just a tad about Dr. DoDI. He is the founder and director of the Center for Compassion and Altruism Research and Education at Stanford, of which His Holiness the Dalai Lama, is the founding benefactor. He works with a variety of scientists from a number of disciplines examining the neural basis for compassion and altruism, through care C.A.R.E. Dr. Doty as overseen the development of a variety of techniques, apps and programs to address issues of stress, anxiety and burnout, through the lens of compassion, that are used around the world and positivity changed the lives of hundreds of 1000s. And you do have an app out and I want to let people know that as well. We'll put a link to that app. He's also the adjunct professor at the Department of Neurosurgery at Stanford, is on the board on many boards of nonprofits and former chairman of the Dalai Lama Foundation, and the former Vice Chair of the charter for compassion. And the senior editor of the Oxford Handbook of compassion science and the author of The New York Times best seller into the magic shop, which is a sounds true book. And we do a lot of work with sounds true as authors. And that's now in 14 languages. So, boy, what an introduction I could go on and on, but I think we ought to get to the heart of it, which is really about how people can work with the neuroscience of the brain to actually manifest in their life. Now, Dr. Dirt you state the manifestation is about cultivating a fierce belief in the possibility you then go on to state that as a child, you're acutely aware of the power of negative circumstances. To limit a human life. You grew up in poverty, with an alcoholic father and a chronically depressed and suicidal mother. Could you tell us a little more about your childhood and how the circumstances helped you to mold the person that you become today? And how dispositional optimism played a role in transforming your life?
Dr. James R. Doty
Well, that was quite a summary. Thank you.
Greg Voisen
I tried to get it all in there, because that's what we do here inside personal growth. Yes, yes.
Dr. James R. Doty
Well, as you pointed out, I had a challenging childhood. And like many actually, people have, I think a lot of people are embarrassed or ashamed to talk about their backgrounds. I as you pointed out, my family was on public assistance, essentially, my entire childhood. My father was an alcoholic, my mother had had a stroke when I was a child. And as a result, was partially paralyzed, had a seizure disorder, ultimately became quite depressed and attempted suicide multiple times. We were evicted from a number of residences as a result of inability to pay the rent. And as anyone who has been in that circumstance, that is not the best environment to achieve what would be typically defined as success in our society. And in fact, there's a whole body of literature related to what are called adverse childhood experiences. And those who've grown up in poverty or have had experiences with drug and alcohol abuse and parents, or mental illness. The likelihood for achieving success ends up being very, very low. What happened to me though, was at the age of 12, I walked into a magic shop and I met a woman and she was not the owner of the magic shop. She was the mother. Yes, Ruth. Yes. And, you know, I think all of us have run across people who have this personality style that just is one that embraces you with kindness. And she had this radiant smile. And she knew nothing about the magic in the magic store, which is why we're sitting there. But she didn't know about people and her and I began a conversation. And the important aspect of that was that by the nature of who she was, she created this, what I would call a sense of psychological safety, which allowed me in some ways to be honest about my own background and story. And she asked me some penetrating questions. Long story short, after about 2030 minutes, she said to me, you know, I really like you. And I'm here for another six weeks. And if you show up every day, I can teach you something that I think could really help you. And this was before. Mindfulness was in common use or even talked about it all before people had used the term neuroplasticity. And also, well, I think the term manifestation had been used, at least in the context of woowoo, pseudoscience, certainly in the realm of neuroscience, it was not studied or discussed or understood. And so during the course of the six weeks, she taught me a mindfulness practice, or what would now be called mindfulness practice, and a way to calm my body. Because you know, when you grow up in these types of environments, it's like, in some ways, it's like a battlefield, there's trauma all around you, there's no predictability, you never know what's going to happen. So you're always on pins and needles waiting for something to happen. And as a result, it's very hard to relax and calm down, which is really required to be present. And if you're not present, then it's really hard to learn or process information appropriately. So she taught me a relaxation technique, or what would now be called a body scan. She taught me a technique to be present. In this case, it was looking at a candle. And then she taught me an understanding that the negative dialogue that I had going in my head was actually not truth. And, unfortunately, so often, when we say I'm not good enough, I'm not smart enough, I'm not worthy, I don't deserve the very nature of saying it then makes that becoming a reality impossible. And so she actually taught me a self affirmation technique or technique for self compassion. And then from there, she taught me a manifestation technique. Unfortunately, the problem for me at the age of 12 was one, I had little, if any self awareness, and two, I fell into the same trap that I think many people fall into, in regard to sort of the woowoo pseudo science side of manifestation, or also what society actually has promoted, which is this selfish attitude about I want, I want I want. And so when she taught me this technique, and I was 12, I put things on this list, like, I want to be a millionaire, I want to live in a mansion, I want to have a Rolex watch, I want to have a Porsche. And I did get all of those things. The problem was that it was a false narrative. And what I mean by that is, you know, I would climb these mountains and achieve, yet there was nothing there for me. And the problem was that I was seeking happiness through affirmation from others. And it's not possible. Yeah,
Greg Voisen
you, you are definitely somebody realizes that. Happiness is an internal job. I've always said to my listeners, if you're looking for happiness outside of yourself, you're looking in the wrong direction, whether it's material possessions, or it's through somebody from the opposite sex or whatever it might be. You know, and you have such an interesting story about a wreckage. You speak about this, and you have a chapter in the book out of the wreckage, and you tell the story about your financial collapse, because you went to this peak, and then you went to the bottom of it. And I'd like you to tell the story if you would. And the one of the most important things or one of the good things about that story was, you found yourself going after this collapse, or this cigar box where you found this piece of paper that you'd written these things on that you just talked about. I'm going to have a Rolex watch, I'm going to have the million dollars. And in your case, it was $72 million. But you went through the.com Bust. And you lost all of this and also speak, if you would, because I think this relates to the listeners about the practice you've created for readers. Because in every one of these chapters at the end, there's a practice. And I think that's really important. Because everybody goes through a chapter here, you're gonna realize at the end of the chapter, there's learning lessons, right? And these are coming directly from somebody who's experienced. So the question is really speak about out of the wreckage, what you learned, and what these practices could help our listeners do.
Dr. James R. Doty
Sure. As you alluded to, I ended up being at least, extraordinarily successful by traditional Western capitalist standards. And what I mean by that is, I went to college, I went to medical school, I became a neurosurgeon, I became a successful entrepreneur, CEO of a company that ultimately went public, and accumulated a lot of wealth. And in fact, during that time, which was before the.com, crash, if you had stock in a publicly traded company, even though you have what are called lockout agreements, you could borrow money against that stock. So I had actually ended up borrowing about $15 million, which allowed me to buy a penthouse in San Francisco, a villa in Florence, I had a Porsche, Ferrari, BMW, Mercedes, range, rover, all of those things. I was dating very attractive models and those types of folks, and I was flying around in private jets. And it's interesting, because all of my friends were saying how great my life was. And to be honest with you, I was never more unhappy than I had ever been in my life. And again, as you were talking about, I was looking outside of myself, for people to tell me how great I was, which was going to take care of the insecurity, and the shame that I carried around with me. And of course, it did not happen. So here I have this incredible rags to riches story. And then during the.com crash, I lost everything. And in fact, I was about $3 million in the hole. And I had made some provisions to donate stock to charity. And what I tell people is, when you end up in the position I was sent, you have two people who become your best friends. One is your banker. And in this case, because I owed the bank, $15 million, and the other was my lawyer, because I had a lot of stuff to take care of
Greg Voisen
a lot of things happening, the lawyer had to help you out. Yes.
Dr. James R. Doty
But the interesting thing was that I did go through this period of reflection, and the reflection was what had I missed here. And again, what I missed was that it was all about me. And I want this, I want that, which unfortunately has been a common narrative that's been promoted in our society. The problem is, I want results in the opposite of happiness. And it leads to emptiness, and it leaves to craving and it leads to attachment. And after this period of reflection, I realized this, and in fact, I had an opportunity not to live up to the, to these charitable commitments I had made because the only asset I had was talking to company that had gone public. And the lawyers indicated that the paperwork had actually not been filed, and I did not have to make that donation. But after this period of reflection that I went ahead and did, and ultimately, that stock became worth about $30 million dollars when the company went public. And it actually funded research and set up programs for the poor all over the world health clinics. It allowed me to endow some chairs at one of my medical school when at Stanford, it allowed me to set up a program for teenagers who are affected by AIDS, HIV, as well as for the Pro as well as programs for the disabled. So, I was able to do extraordinarily wonderful things with that. But it also put me on a different path. Because while I was obviously a doctor, and most doctors help people, my motivation, though, was out of ego. And when I switched how I looked at the world, to one which I will be most happy by being of service, then that changed everything for me. And ultimately, it allowed me to create this center at Stanford at which you pointed out studies, the neuroscience of compassion, and the value proposition of compassion. But it also had other profound effects. As you mentioned, the center founding benefactor was the Dalai Lama, which then led me to develop relationships with many of the world's leading spiritual and religious leaders, to the point where not only was a friend, a friend, but in many cases, an advisor or confidant. And that was profound because what you end up realizing is that these types of individuals, these elevated spiritual beings, live above the dogma of their faith tradition, because what they look through the lens of is, is this person kind, is this person compassionate? Do they care? Are they non judgmental? Do they love, and this is really the core of our existence? Yeah,
Greg Voisen
it actually, if you don't mind me, saying, I can see where you made a big shift from being ego driven to being kind and compassionate. And I think that, you know, I had some similar experiences, not near to the magnitude. But when I founded Compassionate communications, it was about giving back initially, the way the charter was to people who were dealing with life threatening illnesses, my son had leukemia, so that that actually kind of pushed the endeavour to move forward. And I have to admit, I was very ego driven initially to and a financial services business. And I went through bankruptcy. And as a result of that, then started looking just like you there's quite a path here of similarities, maybe not to the same magnitude. But it really it's interesting how you rejigger looking at life when these kinds of incidences occur. And that brings me to what people probably want to read your book for, which is manifestation. Now, you have a chart in the book that really tells a story about how we manifest. And I wanted you to speak about the fight flight and freeze versus the rest and digest and the physiology. Can you also speak about the practice that we could utilize, meaning my listeners to make the crucial switch from this fight flight or freeze response to this rest and digest response, which is really what you and I went through? You know, we were always on, I was having anxiety attacks on a daily basis, striving to keep up with what I thought was the Joneses model and really realizing that was something that I made up incredibly depressed, and not feeling good about myself. Yet I fought that's what the world wanted of me. Right? And I think in an even a neurosurgeon, or a doctor, or somebody who's excelling, I find many times as I speak to you, lots of times families from certain regions of this country, whether they're Asian, or they're Indian, or trying to make their children want to go to a career that's going to be looked at, as you know, hey, the world loves you, because you're a doctor or a scientist, or your computer engineer. You got that right. Oh, sure. Yeah. So I'd love for you to speak about this, because that the heart of this book, is really all these exercises people can do at the back of the book after they read the chapter and get these great stories, but really how they can actually use this book, to transform what's going on inside their brain, okay. And work with their subconscious and work with the various parts of the brain. And you really do a great job of explaining and I just want to let my listeners know, it's a wonderful book for that.
Dr. James R. Doty
Well, thank you. Well, first to comment on what you said about a number of situations where family members or a cultural tradition such as India or Asia, in regard to education, is sort of promoted, oftentimes extraordinarily aggressively to children. And this sad part is that this narrative that you have to do this you have to be the best does several bad things. One is everything turns into a competition, it's a zero sum game, I have to win somebody has to lose. Plus, it puts an extraordinary amount of pressure on an individual who, during the formative years should not have anything like that type of pressure. Now, don't get me wrong, there's nothing wrong with sort of a competitive nature and attempt to achieve. But it has to be modulated in the context of the real world and how your actions affect others. And don't get me wrong. I am at Stanford. And obviously, I run across a large number of people from similar types of backgrounds. In addition to the cultural aspects, you will also see this type of behavior commonly among parents of high achievers, individuals went to Harvard or Stanford where again, there's this almost forced tradition that they have to excel otherwise, quote, unquote, they're a loser. And the horribly sad thing is, as an example, my son, who is my youngest, who's a freshman in high school, at a very competitive are probably the most competitive school in this area, terms of private or public schools. There's just an Asian child who committed suicide. And the horrible thing is, you know, this was an event that has occurred multiple times where there's a train track by the school and the kids walk in front of the train, and kill themselves. And you know, the sad thing is, in almost every instance is because the child has translated their value to their parents into a grade point average. The parents are not proud of them for being an honest, kind, thoughtful human being, the only thing that these children have processed because the pressure their parents have put them on is that their only value is if they're a straight A student. And, and unfortunately, not everyone is a straight A student. And as you know, from my background, I've certainly was never a straight A student in any way, shape, or form. And the point is, though, you don't need to be a straight A student, actually, what you need to be is a kind, thoughtful, caring human being, doesn't matter what your grade point averages or what you achieve. In fact, as a physician, I would see a lot of people from Google and Facebook, as a spine surgeon, actually, which was one of the things I have done as a physician who had back pain or neck pain, or whatever. But I cannot tell you the number of stories of these individuals who basically expressed their unhappiness, that they were either forced to be a physician or forced to be a doctor. And that's not what they wanted to do. But they were repeatedly told that, you know, if you don't do this, we're going to disown you, which is also a very horrible thing. Yeah,
Greg Voisen
it's, you know, the whole challenge with that is, you're asking somebody to live a life that is not from a soul based. It's from with the egos of others wanting you to do something else. And I think when we get to our soul, our true soul calling, and we really figure it out, sometimes it takes many of us many years. We literally realize that it's almost like an awakening, that it's such a relief, to let go of all of this burden of what the world was. And you mentioned, this is my one of my questions that much of the time we go through life, feeling things are happening to us, not motivated by us, and certainly not occurring for us. You then stated that this feeling of being a passive participant is this is an experience like being the passenger in a car that someone else is driving, this is what we've been talking about here. Either which non intended destination or toward a place that will inevitably cause us pain. Can you speak with us about what you refer to as incentive salience? And how this creates a pattern of activation in the brain? And also speak with us about building this inner power practice?
Dr. James R. Doty
Well, I haven't answered your first question, which related to the flight or fight or freeze response? Okay,
Greg Voisen
that's okay. I think people realize that all they got to do is buy this book. I'm just gonna tell everybody, go get the book. And if you don't want to buy the book, go to sounds true. Tammy Simon is wonderful. And by the audio book that you did, magic shop, you're literally going to get I think, kind of the same thing that Dr. Doty is speaking About here. But I think this question really went right in line with what you and I were talking about. So I was like, Okay, I'm gonna have to sing this one in there right now.
Dr. James R. Doty
I, you know, I think one of the points are important points is the difference between what people think they want and what they need. And this gets back to you're talking about being a passenger in a car that's not being driven by you, you know, we have a narrative that we think is going to make us happy. But the reality is that, and the way we evolved as a species is that we are one of the species where our offspring don't swim away or run off into the forest or of the jungle, our offspring have to be cared for. And the reason that's important is because that is the basis for how our species interacts with the world. And what I mean by that is that if we did not care for offspring, which requires an immense amount of time and resources, obviously they would die. But why would we do that? And the reason we do that is that we are rewarded when we do that. And we are rewarded by the by neurotransmitters being released in our brain, which stimulate our reward and pleasure centers. And of course, one that many people are aware of is oxytocin, the bonding love, connection hormone. And you see, so when our reward and pleasure centers,
Greg Voisen
what about what about serotonin? Well, you were just speaking about this young Asian person that ran in front of the train. And you know, it's interesting, you're bringing up a point for me, I just want to make a point to my listeners here for a second, sorry for interrupting. That's one of my best friend's daughter hung herself in the garage. When they came home, they opened it up and she was only 14 years old. And they had no record anything about what she was going to do. They didn't really push her. But they took a test of her serotonin levels. And they were so low. That I just want a you know, this is bringing this up, because this happened two years ago. But at the same time, though, serotonin levels were so low that the some of the doctors I don't know if it was the people that did the autopsy on her, but the reality was, it was exceptionally low.
Dr. James R. Doty
Well, this is why oftentimes, people who are depressed are given SSRIs, right, because this actually elevates the serotonin levels. And serotonin, of course, is associated with many mood disorders. And you basically have four of these neurotransmitters, which are prominent in the context of our sense of happiness connection. And those are oxytocin, serotonin, dopamine, and endorphins. But getting back to what I was saying is that as a result of not knowing what we need, many people go off and become very, very unhappy because they find the ultimate truth, which was what we said earlier, was seeking outward affirmation doesn't work. And it's an interesting paradox, because on the one hand, you have to look inward, to essentially, allow yourself to be happy, and understand that happiness is your choice. It doesn't come from outside yourself, it doesn't come from an event. It comes from how you see yourself in the world. And what I mean by that is that this is where the paradox is right? On the one hand, you're looking inward. But it matters because when you look outward, and you realize that people are suffering, and as a human being based on our evolution, which I was saying earlier, when you care for others, when you go out of your way to benefit others when you look at the world through the lens of how can I be of service that changes your physiology, and it switches you from what we had mentioned earlier, which I had an answered which was from this perception of the world as being fear based, where you shut down and you don't connect to a recognition that the world is a wonderful place and through your own choice. Ancient mental attitude, you can change the narrative where you benefit from engagement of our parasympathetic nervous system or this rest and digest system. And you look through the lens of gratitude, you look through their lens of generosity, you look through the lens of how can I be of service. When you do that your physiology changes, you go from this fear based mode, and where you look through the lens of scarcity, scarcity to one of generosity, thoughtfulness, kindness, which affects your peripheral physiology in terms of positive effect on your cardiac function, your blood pressure, boosting your immune system, decreasing stress hormone levels, decrease in the production of inflammatory proteins. And this is the gift of looking into the lens of being of service to others, because that's how we should be. Now getting back to your other question about these cognitive brain networks. There, basically, four. One is the salience network. And a component of that is what we call the attention network. One is the central executive control network. And the other is the default mode network. Now, there's a lot of anatomy and physiology, but in summary, as a species, and we are essentially a species, in some ways, because we have these organ systems that take in an immense amount of data, and up to 10 million bits of information a second. And what happens is most of that information is not at a conscious level. But it's part of how we regulate our body systems or homeostasis. But the reality is that we can actually embed our intention, because we process on a conscious level about 50 to 100 bits of information a second, which is a small, small amount of the total information that comes in. But through practices that I outlined in the book, we can actually embed them into our salience network, which then results in our subconscious attending to what that intention is, which then affects the other networks, which then it and I use the analogy of a bloodhound, if you will, which then puts the bloodhound on the search for us manifesting our attention. And as an example, I'm sure you've been to a party where it's very noisy, but you'll hear your name mentioned. And you immediately turn even though there's all this noise, you are attuned to your name, because it's so deeply embedded with you. So when you're able to embed your attention, as an example, and this happened to me a few weeks ago, there was a project I was working on, I was thinking about how I wanted it to manifest. And I was at a coffee shop and two tables over you know, there's again, a lot of noise going around, I actually hear these two individuals talking about exactly what I'm trying to do, which then led me to end up being in a conversation with them. And now we're working together on this project. And so my point is that there's so much information going around, but we as a species, ignore almost all of it until it becomes salient to us. And this is the power of this program that I outlined to as a neurosurgeon as an example, I'll tell somebody, they have a condition, and they'll go, Oh, my God, I've never heard of that before. And then I'll see them six weeks or two months later go, it's the most amazing thing I've run into six people have the same day. This is the nature because again, fear, in some ways can embed into your subconscious as well, both for negative and for good aspects. But it just shows you that you have to stop and attend and it gets embedded. And it's a powerful tool. It is
Greg Voisen
and I think for my listeners, I'm gonna say this again, this book is a game changer. If you pick it up and read it do the practices. The key is you got to do the work and anything you got to do the work. And as you were talking about that, as recognizing, say, it's like when you buy a car and then you see 80 of those same cars, right, because it's now recognize that, Oh, there's one of those Tesla's or whatever. But the thing I was going to say is that, as caregivers and as physicians, how we actually speak to the patients about a condition really actually seeds, whether or not somebody could succeed from overcoming that condition. I had Dr. Steve Berman on here was a emergency room physician for 24 years at Scripps became a hypnotherapist with subconscious and was talking about, you know, he's now working with Andrew Weil and they're coming up with another program. But the key to that is was this he really brought up with? How does your doctor talk to you about what it is that you have? Do you have a 90% chance of overcoming it? Or do I just talk about the bad part? Which is the 10? Or do I say, oh, but really, you know, 98% of the people overcome that particular kind of cancer. Right. So now you're gonna look more hopeful, instead of more depressed. And I think that's an important point, I only run a brought it up, because I think it is how you see this brain is how we actually manifest what comes out on the other side. You can comment or not, what do you think? No,
Dr. James R. Doty
no, I think you're absolutely correct. I've experienced this many, many times. And let me just also mentioned a few other aspects, if you look at how hypnosis works, and in many ways, it activates many of these systems, to embed things. And also the placebo effect, which, even though you're told that you're receiving a placebo, for a number of people, it still has the exact same effect as the drug itself. And it shows you how bleef can have a profound profound effect on a variety of things. And now, I do want to caution that if you have cancer, or you have some, you know, really profound medical illness. My suggestion is follow good medical advice and use the power if you want to call it positive thinking or embedding your intention. Because, you know, unfortunately, there's a subset of people who think, well, I'll just think it through and it'll all work out. And unfortunately, manifestation doesn't work that way. As an example, let's say I said, Well, I want to be the first person on on Mars, well, you're so outside the limits of what's possible, that it's ridiculous, and that is not going to happen. So your desires have to be constrained in some ways that but that's not to say that there are many, many things that seemingly are impossible that you can accomplish. Now, you did mention something, I think that's important. Your mental attitude can have a huge impact on your immune system, and a variety of other aspects of your health, that can have a profound positive effect against illnesses that are impacting your health. So I think having that component is is very, very critical. I will also tell you that there is an immense amount of data that demonstrate as an example, a physician, if one he doesn't use his goddamn computer while he's talking to a patient. Or he's not even looking at the patient. If the if the physician interacts with the patient, if the physician leans in toward the patient, if the physician touches the patient, if the physician appears to actually be caring and not rushed, yeah, everything, every one of those actions has a positive aspect on decreasing the stress and anxiety or stimulating the flight fight or freeze response, which then actually allows people to go into that situation or understand you know, what, for many people can be an anxiety provoking situation with a calmness about them and a belief that they're going to be okay. And this belief and that you're going to be okay, what does it do? It decreases the release release of stress hormone. Yeah, I increases the stress on your heart, it decreases your blood pressure. Study after study shows that when you do this type of interaction with the patient before a hospital admission or surgery, they stay in the hospital a shorter period of time, they use less anesthesia, they use less pain medication, their readmission rate is lower every one of these things by affirming the positive aspect, and creating a narrative of positivity, or you could even say option, optimal disposition. Then that really, in some ways liberates you and allows you to be your best self.
Greg Voisen
Well, I'm glad we spoke about this regardless of the nature of the book because it's it's it's important and my listeners, like hearing these kinds of things and actually setting up situations with your physician to actually make this happen. And I would say focus more on the positive and well I found the negative focus on the good things that are going on in your life and less than the negative things that are going on. And that brings me to this because in, I just did an interview with another physician and the book is called open. And it's really about the experiences we have and the distractions we have in life. And one of the things was, we know that micro dosing, little small bits of LSD and all these various drugs today are happening more and more and more, and I say, microdose Smalling. And here's my question is going, when you were a kid, you had some out of body experiences. You actually read Carla's case, jnana, and you Edgar Cayce, and a bunch of other people. And the reason I know this is because I'm very close to this kind of work myself. And you mentioned that the experiences that you're having is known as like you say, I don't know, you use pipe agnostic hallucination.
Dr. James R. Doty
hypnogogic. Okay.
Greg Voisen
Sorry, you say that today, you understand this experience is the key to your entire practice of manifesting, because you're working with the mullet, amygdala, region or the brain. I want to know, for people who are going to just do somatic breathing, who can actually obtain the same states of altered consciousness, if you would be somebody who would advise micro dosing or not, or going the somatic breathing route, or going any breathing route to actually alter the states of consciousness? And actually, our brainwaves? Are neuroscience? What's going on? This is a fair question, isn't it? No, of
Dr. James R. Doty
course. But I think in many ways, it all relates as an example. There are many roads to get to Rome, if you will. And what I mean by that is that, as an example, for myself, I can pretty much get to be anywhere I need to be through a mental or meditation type of practice, doesn't necessarily have to be a quote unquote, mindfulness practice. But a deep meditation practice can take you anywhere you need to go, anywhere you choose to go. That being said, there is other Are there are other techniques such as somatic breathing, or Holotropic, breathwork, that can also create that type of a situation. And the use of psychedelics can for many people, be extraordinarily beneficial. The thing is, you have to get out of your ego. And you have to, if you want to call it get into a flow state, or one of the states where you have focused attention, and are not distracted by many of the things that distract all of us, then you can get there. But if you have this constant chatter and and stuff going on in your head, it will, I think, limit that. And some people use the term dissolution of the ego. But whatever terminology, you want to use, many of these techniques, and many of these agents can be profoundly profoundly beneficial to people who are suffering, because one of the causes of suffering for so many is childhood trauma. And of course, I'm sure you know, Gabor Ma Tei. And a variety of other individuals who talk about how these types of traumas in the past are baggage that we carry with us that dictate so many of our actions. But if you don't have an awareness of this, you can't change because you don't know what it is. That's the driver. And many people as we were talking about earlier, being driven in a car, but they don't know who the driver is. And when in fact, they're the driver, they just don't know it. So one of the aspects that's important, and that many of these different types of techniques can do is one allow you to deal with your shadow. That part of you that you hate about yourself that fails and makes you feel as though you're not worthy. And the problem is, so so many people try to push it away, and act like it's not part of them. But the reality is you have to accept it, that in fact, it is an inherent part of you. And the more you push it away, the more likely it is it's going to present itself in a very destructive fashion. Versus if you accept yourself and understand that even with all of that. You deserve love. You deserve kindness, you deserve to be accepted. That is a huge, huge thank you This
Greg Voisen
theme is definitely a theme that carries in a lot of my podcast. You know, Dr. Brian Allman right now who I am helping him develop an app for Ace adverse childhood experiences. And he's using the ACE tool because he and one other doctor, were the ones that actually developed it at Kaiser. So that the interesting thing is, is those adverse childhood experiences that people are unaware of what Kaiser finally found out, especially for overweight people, so I'll bring that up was that this was helping them with the actual costs of caring for people. So they really started pushing the ACE protocol, and they've done 149,000 or 159,000 test on this ACE program. So a lot of my listeners already know that I've had Brian on several times. But I do want you to see that what Dr. Dodi is talking about the correlation is really something that is inside inside your subconscious mind, your until you actually activate it, see it and choose to do something about it, you're really going to be living with it, and you're not even going to realize what's happening. So let me give you this because I'd like to give you an opportunity to comment on this. We'll sum up the interview. The books filled with great stories demands a great stories, folks, and practices that inform us about the neuroscience of manifesting questions at the end of the chapters, ways to get in and practice. And obviously, there are things that you can do, like he was just saying, you can do deep meditation, you can do somatic breathing, you can be mindful, you can do all of these things, to try and access this and and change. But if you were to leave the listeners with three main points or ideas that they could start using immediately, what would you advise them to start doing to manifesting? A, I'm gonna just call it a better life?
Dr. James R. Doty
Sure. Well, I think one of the most important things is not to be fixated on the narrative, you're in your head that your life was horrible. And I know that may sound trivial, but that's very, very important. As an example, as a neurosurgeon, obviously, I see people have had horrible events happen to them. But imagine you have a somebody who's fallen off the roof and is paraplegic. And they're crying and telling you how horrible their future life is going to be. And then you take them into the intensive care unit and see somebody with a broken neck, who who cannot move their arms and legs. And who is on a ventilator. The contrast there is dramatic, where you can sit there and say, Oh, my God, I'm lucky. And so in many ways, part of this has to change how you see the world, from one of every event is negative towards you, to actually the reality that in almost every situation, there are things that you can be thankful for. And I know that may seem strange for many people, but it's actually true. So I think one is changing how you see the world and look through the lens of how other people are suffering. And sometimes you don't even recognize everybody's carrying a burden to I think that we need to have emotion regulation. And what I mean by that is, many of us are very reactive, many of us are judgmental, and unfortunately returned by our amygdala. You know, we have a tendency to grab onto things that we feel are a threat. And then that leads to a whole narrative of how we respond. And in some ways, we have a fast and a slow response system. The Fast Response System is to keep us alive, which was developed over millennia, because there is a lot of threat in our environment, you know, big animals or other things that we can control. So we had to be able to bypass any thought to do an action that would save our lives, runaway climate tree, etc. We have a whole system that reacts very quickly. But the problem is that type of reactivity in the modern world can be very, very negative. So there's something that Viktor Frankl is attributed, although he actually never said it. But that's this quote of his or this quote that's attributed to him. That says between stimulus and response, there's a pause. And I'm paraphrasing but within that pause lies our freedom. And I think this idea of controlling your emotions, but For you react is very, very important. No, yeah. And I think, really, this idea of actually positive affirmations or being kind to yourself, I was just did a podcast with Shauna Shapiro who wrote a book called Good morning, I love you, which is this idea about being kind to yourself. And then I think the other very important aspect is actually doing activities, or practices that give you access to your subconscious to actually implement some of the things that we're talking about. That will then put you in a position where you have the tools to change your life in a positive way. But I have to caution that one, actions that are self only self centered, the likelihood of those manifesting are much less than those unless they're focused on others. But the reality is, when you focus on others, many times, you get all the other things you wanted to that manifestation, as you pointed out earlier, is it simple as God, as some people say, God only helps those who help themselves eat there is work involved. Three, manifestation works on its own timeline, it doesn't work on your timeline. You know, you might think, oh, I need this by this date. But sometimes the, it's just not possible, and you have to not be attached to the outcome. Right? You do the work, and hopefully, it manifests.
Greg Voisen
That's a good Buddhist philosophy. And I've always said that we haven't always said it. Once I got involved in this work, I said it I, I went back and got a master's degree in spiritual psychology, and it changed my life. But I would say that for people that are out listening right now, and I've made it this far through the podcast, please, please go get a copy of this book. This is one of those books. It's called Magic mind the neuron magic minds. It's my magic. I apologize again, I screwed up my magic, the neuroscience of manifestation and how to change everything. Dr. James DoDI, we're going to put a link up to it basically, is website now is there a website for the book? I didn't notice there was?
Dr. James R. Doty
No, there's not. There will be soon. But if you go to the website for my first book, which is into the magic shop.com, actually, the new book is there. And also you can order from that. But there should be a website up in a couple of weeks. And to be honest with you, I haven't picked out what the name is because my magic is already taken, maybe I'll have to change it to the opposite. Like you said, magic
Greg Voisen
twice. So maybe that's what it is mind magic, or magic mind. But it is mind magic folks, and do look for that. We're going to put a link to Amazon because you can preorder the book, the book comes out May 8, and may 7, may 7. Yeah, close enough. People rushed to it to get it on the seventh grade, if not go and get it on the eighth. But the point is, is for all my listeners, truly, it's been an honor and a pleasure having you on the show your wealth of knowledge and wisdom. You I just did a podcast here with Chip Connolly. And I think it what I say about you is you're the what does he call himself the wisdom guy, right. That's, that's the place to be. But thank you for being on the show for taking this time for letting my listeners know about your story a little bit, but also more as much about the neuroscience of this, and how they can actually alter it themselves. Without doing anything drastically in their life. They just need to wake up, pay attention to what they're telling themselves and actually follow a new path of intentions. And don't be in a rush actually slowed down a bit and let life manifest as it will because it's a beautiful journey. Namaste to you. Thank you for your time of being on the show.
Dr. James R. Doty
Well, it's Greg, thank you so much for having me. I appreciate it. And for the audience, please never underestimate the power that you have within yourself to not only change yourself, but to change the world and others around you. So thank you.
Greg Voisen
Well said.
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Inside Personal Growth with Greg Voisen · Podcast 1107: The Business of You with James WilliamsJoining us this episode is Certified High Performance Coach and the founder of coaching and consulting company The Growth Edge, James Williams featuring his coaching program The Business of You.
James specializes in 10X results for your next chapter by conducting detailed audits of behaviors, habits, and priorities, eliminating ‘dead weight’ and fostering high-performance habits. Having grown through many life chapters myself, he believes every chapter in life calls for personal reinvention, development and growth in order to succeed thus he is passionate about supporting those who have a vision for their future, by unlocking the person within them that is capable of realizing that vision.
James classifies his services into three: private coaching, speaking, and collaborations yet all of these have one goal – achieving a harmonious balance between work and personal life, paving the way for unparalleled financial and personal success, at a pace faster than ever imagined.
At the core, James has been taught by the best and most academical researched High Performance coaching strategies in the world. Around which James has created a way to customize each coaching program for the needs of his clients. His foundational approach starts with what he calls – The Business of You Breakthrough. This intensive program unlocks the behaviors, environments and habits that are keeping his clients from reaching their goals. James also has a newsletter entitled An Inner Perspective Shift wherein he publishes articles about perspective shifts, cutting edge tips and strategies towards becoming the best version of yourself.
You may learn more about James and his works by visiting his website here.
Thanks and happy listening!
You may also refer to the transcripts below for the full transciption (not edited) of the interview.
Interview Transcipt -Not EditedEmailDownloadNew TabGreg Voisen
Welcome back to Inside Personal Growth. This is Greg Voisen, host of Inside Personal Growth. And joining us from Austin, Texas, is James Williams. Now, James kind of reached out to me and as many of your listeners know, we've had plenty of high performance kind of coaches on the show. James is one of those, but he's unique and special. And I want to let my listeners know a little bit about you. Good day to you, James, how you doing?
James Williams
Great to be here, Greg. I appreciate it. I'm doing fantastic. I'm very honored to be on your show and get to get to add some value to your to your listeners.
Greg Voisen
Well, I think all my listeners probably want to know where that accent from even though many of them could get
James Williams
it all from Austin, Texas. I'm from London, England. Originally, I've been in the states since 2019. So still a newbie.
Greg Voisen
Yeah, kind of a newbie. You've been here long enough, especially if you're in Austin, Texas to get the lay of the land? Well, let me let my listeners know a little bit about you. James is a certified high performance coach who specializes in helping individuals achieve greater success and harmony in their lives, we all could use that his approach combines a focus on both the internal mental shifts, and practical actionable strategies to enhance overall performance in the personal and professional arenas. And today, you're going to get the benefit of listening to how James does this. Since 2015, he's worked, particularly with driven female business owners alongside his wife. And what's your wife's first name? Again,
James Williams
it's Emily. So Emily, really Emily.
Greg Voisen
So Emily Williams and him do work together. He's also driven, ambitious entrepreneurs. So any entrepreneurs listening today, this podcast is for you, any women listening today, that podcast is you. Together, they've developed a successful training models and strategies that are tailored to the individual needs of their clients. Jamin is known for his compassionate, precise and highly motivational coaching style, which helps individuals to not only identify, but also overcome the barriers to success. And, you know, I'll say this, James, it's, are you afraid of being successful? Right. And I think sometimes there's this real fear of being successful. And that's why people aren't as successful. Can you speak with us about that? Because frequently, it's like, well, if I become successful, what's how? What are people gonna think about me? And what? And then so what they do is they dumb it down. Because it's not a fear of basically, the fact is that fear is very real, is what I'm trying to say. Yeah, it's
James Williams
the first piece, it's the identity piece, right. And, you know, one of the reasons I love working with entrepreneurs, or especially people who are becoming entrepreneurs, is that, you know, you can want the money and the staff and the lifestyle. But there have been people in your life that have known you, or think they know you, and they've known a version of you. Deep down inside, you know that there's another version, or there's a version that is capable of more. But when we identify with a career, or with a certain Act, a certain set of behaviors, it really can threaten success, because to be successful in whatever that means to you. It really means becoming who you need to be. And that's not often change. But it's definitely stripping away parts of your behaviors and environments. And maybe people that up until now, you've thought you've needed to own that identity, but to be successful, quote, unquote, not only do you not need them, but it's actually really important that you let those things go. And that's a scary journey.
Greg Voisen
So what prepared you to become a certified high performance Coast coach and tell our listeners a little bit about you? What was your journey toward doing this? Because, you know, let's say coaching has both a good reputation and a not so good one. There's a lot of people out there that are coaching people that really just don't have any. They don't have any meat underneath them, right to really say, Well, I can be a good coach because I've had this experience. Tell us a little bit about your background, your personal experience. Chances are what led you to this?
James Williams
Well, I mean, my first career, I guess, as an adult out of university was I worked in television. For 12 years, I worked for a big corporation called sky in the UK. And that was a great career, you know, I went to university didn't really know what to study, the idea of coaching wasn't really a thing that I was aware of growing up. And so I aimlessly just went towards what I love, which is people and TV was interesting to me. And even the way I got that job was interesting, because I never actually applied for it. I, I stayed in relationships with people that inspired me, I travelled around Australia for seven months on my own, and I kept in touch with two people, my family, and this person that worked at Sky. When I came home from traveling, I asked this guy to just, you know, could I come in and just meet some people and ultimately talk my way into an unpaid internship for three months, which, at the end of it, they just gave me the job that I'd already started doing. 12 years later, I had this great experience, but I was spending a lot of my time trying to figure out, why am I not happy? I've got this job. That's this really great job, lots of bonuses. You know, it's cool to tell people I work for this company, it's very well known, but I was really unsatisfied. And I guess really six years in identified that, you know, I just need to do something more challenging. So throughout that career, I just kept getting different promotions and pay rises. And, and I thought that those are things I need it to feel a greater sense of purpose and be, quote, unquote, successful. But it just wasn't happening. And then about 10 years in, I met my wife, my then girlfriend, and my wife really was a muse in my life at that point, because she came from an entrepreneurial family. And so she naturally thought differently. And I realized very quickly that I was trying to solve the problem of how do I go to my next level, not only be more successful, but be feel a sense of purpose and happiness. I was trying to solve that problem within a bubble. So I was just trying to get promotions and changes within this industry or within this company. What she made me realize was that, well, if you can think it's possible, and maybe there's something that utilizes all your natural skills, that would feel more purposeful, and maybe you've kind of already been doing it. And so then the work started, I started studying personal development a lot more, I got a coach. And I realized that one of the things that I was doing that I loved was I had a good relationship with my old university professor. And he would invite me back to the university to speak to the students about life after university and help them identify who they are going to be. And you know, what are you need to think about? And I was doing that and not realizing it wasn't a paid thing. I just did it because I loved it. But then I realized there's something in this right. Is there a career is there something in this that I could really find life purpose in. And then my coach at the time introduced me to Brendon Burchard. And I picked up Brendan's books. first book I read was The charge, which really spoke to me because it was about I've always been interested in health and fitness and mindset. And the charge really got me interested into another level of what does it take for a human being, to not only feel energy but feel charge, which was a sense of purpose, a sense of, you know, I'm really doing what I was put here to do. Then the coaching industry started poking its head out in my life, my wife decided she wanted to get into the industry. So I started looking over our shoulder the course that she was doing, and I realized, you know, what this is, this utilizes my skills of and strengths of mentorship, communication, learning, teaching, what I've learned, this utilizes all of those things. So my job at that point was okay, I need to educate myself, I need to learn what I need to learn how to be a coach to understand high performance. And even at the time, yes, a lot of people were like, you know, life coaching, what have you done James, to help people with their life at the time, I was only, like, 30, I'm 44 now. And I said, Well, you know what, at the moment, it's me learning and I'll learn and then there's someone, there's a version of me that maybe is a year behind me that could do with a conversation, and that's the way I thought about it. So I did question nation. Question
Greg Voisen
for you. So yeah, evolved. I see this journey has been kind of ongoing now for probably 20 years, but he is close to 20 years. So when you met your wife because you guys have worked together. What is it like? You know, when you really people, female hires and other female to coach. You guys actually coached together. Right? And I know
James Williams
why it works is we again identified our strengths, right Emily is a great coach, but different to me very different. Emily's more of a leader and a born entrepreneur like she wants, she will run multiple businesses. She realized, you know, where it started before it even certified? Her clients were asking if they could have a conversation with me because they didn't understand why their husbands weren't supporting them in their entrepreneurial endeavors. So why is James supporting you, Emily? So it started with 15 minute calls with me just to ask me questions, James, what's different about you? This is before I even started coaching, we realized quickly, especially after certification that my skill set was helping these women really own who they could be, and take responsibility for their own lives and not need permission, or acceptance from others that those things came as bonuses when they showed up in their own power. And I had a skill for that,
Greg Voisen
is that when this business of us started, so my question quiet, okay, so you, you have this thing called the business of you. And you say, that's usually where you start with a client, you mentioned how this program helps the clients. And this is something people can do, and it's at his website. And again, for all my listeners, it's the growth edge.com, the growth edge, we'll put a link, you can learn about the business of you. But this is kind of the pre coaching programs. And so tell me a little bit about it, how our listeners could learn more about it, get access to it, and to you, because it's not super expensive. It's something almost anybody could afford. So let's, let's see here about the business of you.
James Williams
The business abuse, the I guess, the, the reverse engineer, reverse engineered part of my story of how I mastered the business of me how I mastered myself, so that I could always progress. And I could always audit, manage and gain momentum in that business, the business of me, because I'm ever evolving, we all are. And at no point will I be perfect. And so the business of view was a concept of that, really, I believe is the foundation of any growth journey, and a continuing journey. It was born from one of the sessions. So within the certified high performance research that I was certified to teach. At this point, now I've been certified through about 48 sessions worth of content through research material, one of the sessions was a really interesting session around presence, around the power of being present, not only with the world around you, but with yourself, you know, really understanding yourself and what makes you tick within that was this idea of, well, you know, like a business, I have roles within myself, you know, I have the ability to observe what's going on, I have the ability to direct my own behavior, to take responsibility for my own actions, I have the ability to put up boundaries and barriers and and you know, decide what comes in and what what goes out. I always have the ability to fight for what I want. I have the ability to love myself and others. And I have the ability to lead myself and others. So these became roles, roles in the business of you that when you understand them, you have a conversation with them. You put them all in a boardroom and you sit them down, you say okay, guys, are you all doing what you're here to do? Are you all in communication with each other? And if not, which one of these roles needs to step it up? And how does that spill on effect those other roles. And when we have all that information, what we gain is a huge amount of clarity as to why my life is the way it is currently from that first role. The non judgmental observer, which is really important, right, great. We could talk about just that.
Greg Voisen
Well, let's talk about something that I think most executives or entrepreneurs, whether we're male or female are looking for, and that is in this seeking element. We all want to attain, well, let's face it, we all kinds of look for Nirvana, but we look for flow. And what I'd like to know is from a physical, emotional and spiritual side, how do you coach Are your clients to say, Well, when I wake up in the morning, of just like you were saying, Brendon Burchard, his book, you are charged, right? So when I wake up, I'm charged, that's probably the first initial spot is like my passion, and my purpose in life and my values and my living it. And then how to get over the fear of actually showing up that way. Because the world around you is not seeing you in that same light, because you have to show up differently. And then to be able to show up, and actually stay in and maintain a state of I'm not going to say Nirvana, but at least flow. Life is flowing, what do you do to help people gain this state of consciousness within their own mind and their body and their spirit to say, I can sustain this for a long time? without anybody knocking me down? I think that's what a lot of people want.
James Williams
There's a long, complicated answer, because we all have our own recipes. But here's the simple answer. It's more about what you take away, and what you don't do. Than then what you do. And what you I would agree. Dan Sullivan would call this you know, 20% is easier than that. So 10x is easier than 2x. Right? 80% can go. And my when I left that TV company 80% of my life when and I'm talking about people, behaviors, environments, habits, most of what I'd chosen to incorporate into James, and that business was not going to get me to the next chapter. So I
Greg Voisen
think so what you're saying is, if I had a raw piece of stone gear, and I wanted to carve it into Michelangelo, it's about what I chip away, not to get to what I want to keep. Versus that versus me trying to do everything. Yeah, because I want as well for me. Right? Yeah, me to become that statue. For me to become that essence. And being of Michelangelo, I had to chip away 1000s and 1000s of pounds, but it's in the chipping away of that stone that we become who we are. And what I think is so important is that I think so many people want this fast. This isn't a fast game. This isn't something where I'm going to take a laser beam on it and create the Michelangelo, it's actually going to be chipped away with a chisel and a hammer. Right? And you're gonna, you're gonna do it. And you're gonna keep at it until you get to what you would consider be your perfection.
James Williams
Right? And as I say, Guess what, when you're lighter, because you're not carrying the weight around all the things that don't serve you flow and maintaining that experience is easy.
Greg Voisen
Easier? Well, look, there is this huge need in our world today. Because we see we're all connected on the internet where we have so many things that distract us, they distract our time they distract our energy. But you talk about work, or work life harmony and balance, right. And for these overachievers, I remember having Marshall Goldsmith on here. And he charges he coaches some of the highest performing people. And they don't even recognize the fact. Right, that they already have two MBAs and a PhD and they've started a company that's making millions and millions of dollars, and all they're looking for is more. When do you actually stop and say more? I don't need more. What
James Williams
I need, yeah, mostly just that there's lack. Right?
Greg Voisen
Right. Because somewhere along the line in their childhood, we didn't say adverse childhood experiences. But the question is, what I might ask you, do you think your clients regret?
James Williams
What did my clients regret? Well, if they're
Greg Voisen
trying to be so successful, and they can't just stay with who they are, they potentially have something in their life that they regret. Well, well, because they're saying they didn't become this great, famous whoever they wanted to become.
James Williams
Yeah, well, normally my clients don't come in with regret. They come in with more, right? I want more. Okay. But what you're saying and I hear you is that, you know, if you're saying you want more, are you saying you don't have enough, right, does that mean right? This is where, you know, sometimes if it gets really deep, I'll actually hire a psychiatrist to co coach with me, you know, because it depends how deep that come from. But all of us have have a journey and have varying levels of trauma that have allowed us to put on identities that we think we need to survive. A lot of those identities make us feel like a we need to be obliged to certain things, and be that we're not enough and that we need to be happy and identifying
Greg Voisen
with us. But would you say, James, that we live in a world of making stuff up and we believe what we made up, and then literally, we spend our lifetime unbelieving what we made up to become who we really are. And then the question is, what is the truth? So the big T is the big truth, right? The realization of that comes through the experiences of chipping away at that, that because I'm actually chipping away parts of myself that I don't need. Right? Before or that I learned from, right. And I now have that essence of what I've learned, would you say exactly. So, if I stand up for my truth, how do you help people find their truth and stand up for their truth with inside themselves. So
James Williams
you know, the business of you. That's why that's the start. Because the business of you is our questions to the parts of the deepest parts of you that you may not have been introspective enough to delve into. You know, it starts with clarity, even Brendan's work. The first pillar is clarity. We can't move anywhere until we have conscious competency and even an understanding of where we've previously been unconsciously competent, and unconsciously incompetent, like complete awareness of what has made me who I identify as now. Where is it that I meant to go? And what parts of me am I gratefully saying goodbye to, that's where we start. And part of that is trust. You know, especially in the world we live in now where people want everything quickly. Communication is different. It's not as impersonal as it used to be. Trust is, and always has been one of the most valuable things that we can spend time cultivating. But guess what, you can only really trust the world and others as much as you can trust yourself. And so trust in self. Jana Van Zandt wrote a great book book on this trust, the four essential truths is one of the best books I've ever read on trust. How will my clients trust themselves, is crucial to then planning that next step. Because then they will allow themselves to do what it is that they really want to do that may take some courage is crucial. So I would say trust. So
Greg Voisen
look, when you have a client that comes to you, and they're at the beginning stages of maybe the business of you, and they're confused. And they're, they've kind of lost their true north, as people call it in this business, right? They don't have a purpose, there is no significance in their life. They're just working to make money. Right? They don't have a lot of meaning. How do you put an essence around finding a client when you find a client like this, to actually get them to dig in, and no matter what they want to call it, take this deep introspective journey with you. Because you could say, oh, well, we're going to discover your purpose. We're going to study your values. We're going to discover your vision, we're going to discover all these things. And I get it. And they go, Hey, James, really, I'm so lost. I don't even know if I want to work there. I'm sure you've had them.
James Williams
I've I've had them in the past. So. So I came up with this model. Again, it's available on the website. It's a free video called the three rooms. This is a it's like a visualization I made up for myself because I was really struggling to be present. And I needed a construct that would allow me to visualize what presents looked and felt like and I'll share it with you because that explains the answer to your question. So I believe that in in our in our mind, we have three rooms right we have the past to visual library, which is everything we've ever done, seen, felt and experienced. On the other side, we have the future creative workshop, which is everything we are all the timelines we get to choose from all The easel is full of ideas that are the things we get to create. Now these two rooms are void of time, right? They don't exist. If we spent too much time in the past, it can be stressful and and and rehashing, if you've spent too much time in the future, can be anxious because we can't do anything there. The third room is the present room, the only room that actually exists. By understanding this contract, I would take that client to the past and say, let's, let's open up that door. And let's go on a journey of discovery. You know, what are some of the things you've done, that serve served you that made you happy, that have made you feel, you know, great, give me give an example of a story where you were really productive and effective, and you felt a sense of achievement afterwards. And we'd get some of those stories that would pull those things out of the library, right? And we could ask questions like, what are some of the things you've done, that felt unfulfilling and haven't served you and made you feel drained, and we pull those things out? And we don't make that room? Right? We just use as a library, it's a great source of information. And then we take the useful information, and we take it into the future. And we say, Okay, where can we have more of this. And so really, it starts with feelings and fulfillment. And you know, how much they feel like that most of my clients out now aren't that down that road, they're pretty driven and successful. But, you know, the more lost they are, the deeper into the journey of just what makes you tick, from the past that we can take seeds from unplugging them in the future.
Greg Voisen
How much of your work actually deals in helping people find that level of spirituality?
James Williams
Well, I mean, spirituality is a is a crucial part of, of the journey, it depends on the client's verbiage around that, right? What is it that they believe, so I got to be respectful of understanding where they find their spirituality? Right? Is it? Is it religion? Is it? Is it a more universal spirituality? What is it? But ultimately, especially for entrepreneurs, it's not all about you, you're not an island. And that if you are saying that running a business or being an entrepreneur is lonely, you're doing it wrong?
Greg Voisen
Well, I think that if you listen to Steve Jobs, and all the greats who been around and and Bill Gates, they'll always talk about intuition. Say, you know, my intuition was one of the best things that I followed when I was an entrepreneur, and I listen to a higher voice. And I know in Steve Jobs, a lot of people don't really realize it, but he fell, followed Paramahansa Yogananda and meditated and went to India, and then came back. And that was part of his philosophical belief, right, which was to do that. My question for you is, there's got to be I wrote a book many years ago, called Hacking a gap, a journey from intuition, to innovation and beyond. And I realized that when people get in touch with this higher source, they become a lot more creative, they become a lot more innovative, they become a lot more inspired, they become a lot more, a lot of things. And sometimes it's really just that connection to that entered in tuition, that higher self that allows me a break through to something new, as you were saying, the three rooms I think is awesome. We the way you explained it, you know, because many people used to say, tomorrow's a promissory note. Yesterday's a canceled check. The only thing you really have right now is right now, right? Yeah. And we know that is the presence. And there's been so many books written by presidents. But what I'm asking you is in helping your clients develop presence, and get in touch with intuition. So it emphasizes more creativity, more innovation, more joy, more abundance, less fear. What is it that you actually help them realize? Is, you're just realizing that we're, yeah, you need to stay in the present moment, or do you help me realize something about the other two rooms?
James Williams
Yeah, well, we could go back to what we just said about trust, like trust and faith are very similar things and that speaks to intuition. Right? high performers, and this comes from a great study high performers are typically present, facing the future. And I will help them recognize that that no negative emotions exist in the present room. I challenge you to think Tell me one negative emotion that ever exists in the present, because it doesn't. Any negative emotion that's in the present is either a fear or an anxiety about Something might happen, or I remembering or stress about something did happen. So freedom and peace and connection to creativity and source is ultimate presence. So finding that that's why I came up with the room is because if you can imagine shutting doors, when those emotions come up, you start to gain some agency over those because you recognize that they don't actually exist here.
Greg Voisen
And I and I really hear you very strongly. And I want to echo that, that the concept that you gave today, in this podcast, just with the three rooms was worth the price of admission for everybody. Because the reality is, that's a great way for people to look at things. Look at the past, or the future, stay in the present, right, and you learn from the past, you seek what you can create in the future. But you stay in it and do it one step at a time. Right, knowing that it doesn't always turn out exactly as maybe you envisioned. But it does turn out because you are headed towards some goal, some meaningful something. And that's where I want to ask you this, because in all of this Past, Present Future, everybody is put an n is given decisions to make lots of decisions every day decisions, right? How do you help your clients make, quote, better decisions or even make a decision? Because some people just vacillate, they just never make the decision. And it wastes a lot of time when you don't make the decision. Well,
James Williams
you'll know this, you've interviewed some of the some of the Great's on this podcast. And they will all tell you that the reason why Steve Jobs was more successful than some other guy was he failed more. Which means make a decision. You do your best to use all the things we've talked about to get as much clarity towards the direction and what's required to attain a goal. But at some point, you just make a decision. And you follow it through from the beginning to the end, and then you either win or you learn. And there's I in my last 20 years, I've learned way more a million times more from every failure than I have from any of the successes.
Greg Voisen
I remember a long time ago, James, a gentleman by the name of Larry Wilson, it was Wilson learning, you may not know him at all, or you might, but he had one of the biggest training companies used to hang out with Maslow, Max Omaze be our I'm sorry, Maxi, what's his name, the psychologists that did all the stuff on change. But anyway, this guy used to play a game with the on the would have a timer in the middle to get this. And it'd be a million dollars on the board. And there'd be all these circles on the board, right? And these groups of people would have to get to stop the clock the quickest. All right, now get this for a minute. They're trying to stop the clock as quickly as possible. The ones with fear, who were afraid they were going to basically step on the land mines. Were the ones who always had less money than the ones who found out where all the landmines were, and then stopped the clock. So the point of the exercise was basically don't be afraid to step on the landmine you have to whatever that is the problem, the issue, whatever, you got to find out where it is. Yeah. And then you got to move forward because you need to stop the clock. Because if you can't stop the clock, you're gonna go broke. Yeah, right. And I thought it was such a good game, because it got people to wake up and say, What am I afraid of? Those are just little dots on a board. Why? Why am I afraid? They've truly had dots, right? It was like, hey, metaphor, though. So it is and it's a way for you to be forced to make a decision to actually go step on something that maybe you thought maybe you shouldn't, but then what did you learn? You learned in the end that literally you were able to have more money on your board than that the other teams you're playing against, right? So this brings me to this, if I was to do a customized breakthrough session for you with you, what would that session feel like look like and be like, and what can I expect as they're coming out the other side?
James Williams
Right question? Well, it starts with me gathering as much about you as possible, right? So it starts with they get sent a questionnaire and the idea of that is I want to know, as much about you as possible, not just the obvious stuff like, you know, why did you book this session? What are you trying to achieve? What have you been struggling with all the all the normal questions, but there's some questions actually, some of them taking from the charge around personal agency that based on how they answer them, I learned a lot about your psychology too, because people judge themselves in very interesting ways. And it's not true. It's not that it's true or not true, but it's how people think of themselves as interesting to me. So from that information, we go through those six roles. It's the set questions through those six roles, but the goal is, for both of us, you and I, to gain a huge amount of clarity as to why you are experiencing the world you're experiencing right now. Why you are in your why you are where you are in your life, we need to know everything, but why are you here? And then how, through some of those questions by managing those roles, can you start to progress by stripping stuff away, and refocusing on some of the things that have been helping you. So by the end of it, you have a huge amount of clarity as to how you're going to progress in your life.
Greg Voisen
You know, you you and your wife have been involved in group trainings, masterminds. And I just had Don green on here from Napoleon Hill. Napoleon Hill was one of the first people who had taken all those people he interviewed. And I think it was either Rockefeller or one of them, was the guy with the creative mastermind groups. Right. And you know, it when I first started in this business mastermind groups were just prolific is every day well, let's do a mastermind, three or four friends are going to get together, we're going to help one another. And I think I don't see as much of it anymore. But I do believe that it is extremely valuable when you find the right people to be in a mastermind together. Versus now you see much more individual coaching. How do you use masterminds group trainings in your approach? And what would what might make it a little bit different? For the person coming in, would get coaching from you? Yeah,
James Williams
great question. And just to say, you hear the word mastermind has been felt has been watered down a little bit, because I've seen a lot of masterminds. But if we and I'm so glad you brought up, you know, the the original creation of a mastermind, because really what it's meant to be, is just that masterminding. So a group of people that as a collection can be valuable to each other, being in the same space a bit like networking. And so what we've really enjoyed, and even though my wife does some other stuff, we do less things together, masterminds and events, we will always do together. Because putting amazing people in a room together, they all want to progress. So we as their coaches, or teachers, or the people we bring in to be their teachers will be there to teach them and coach them. But ultimately, they are part of the value as well. They are they are there to add ideas and perspectives to each other. So then it creates, we talked about flow earlier, where we know that should send me high rope that flow state is much easier to create in a group setting than it is individually. So then when you when you get beautiful, powerful people together, that all driven are all ambitious or willing to be vulnerable and honest and inspiring among strangers, and you take them somewhere inspiring. We did a mastermind in Bora Bora last year, you know, we used to live in London, that's where I'm from. So we've done in London, New York, Santa Barbara, California, going to amazing places. That's the environment base, right? Put people in incredible environment with incredible people with joint ideas. But all of them wants to come and learn something, but they're going to be a part of the experience and magic happens. And that's what we really enjoy, because we end up learning as well, from
Greg Voisen
but it's like the wisdom. It's like the wisdom 2.0 events, it's any of those kinds of events. There's lots of them. So, you know, kind of looking ahead for you and your wife. What is it that you're changing, modifying adjusting? That might be if we looked in the room three, which is over here the future? For Jas, what is it that you're doing? What could the clients or prospective listeners that would go to your website, learn about maybe some of the new things that the growth edge is going to do?
James Williams
Right? Well, the gray page website is going to be relaunching in the next month. It's all been completely changed. The coaching will always like the one on one coaching will always exist because foundationally I really enjoy that and I love working with amazing people and But my wife's business is doing lots of other things. But we are going to do another big event coming up soon, that'll be a joint event, probably next year. Her company is called I heart, my life. So it'll be I have my life live, that'll be the second big one. So I'm networking and bringing together amazing people is something I get a lot of joy from doing. And so more. And I don't think I'll call them masterminds, but more events that bring together people and collaborate to create something amazing is something I'm looking to do. That will be less of a client coach scenario and more a influences all being together and collaborating type scenario. That's something that we're looking to do in the future. And you'll see that on the website, when that's ready to go. We're going to be going back to Bora Bora, for one of those just bringing some incredible people together to co create.
Greg Voisen
I think you ought to do the James Williams South by Southwest.
James Williams
here in Austin, and I didn't do that while I was here, but I will be coming back for that. But yeah, why not?
Greg Voisen
Yeah, why not? Why not? You ought to have 1000s of people show up in downtown Austin for the South by Southwest because it is quite an event, isn't it? It's Coronavirus. Yeah. Well, I want to thank you for being on inside personal growth. And again, for all of my listeners, we've been on with James Williams, he is the certified High Performance Coach, you can go to his website at the growth edge.com. James doesn't have a book. But that's not that important. What he does, as you have the expertise and knowledge, and he's actually been through the journey, and I always like to profile people that have taken the journey that haven't always been on the top that haven't always been 100% successful. But if continued with grit determination to get there. Again, his analogy that he used this morning about the three rooms is probably one of the biggest takeaways you can have in staying present. And I just want to thank you for being on the show. Namaste to you. Thanks to all the listeners out there. And thank you, James, for taking the time to impart some of your wisdom around not only coaching, but just life's lessons in generals because that's really what it's about.
James Williams
Yeah, we're all learning forever. It's been a pleasure to be on such an amazing podcast, Greg, you've created something incredible. So thank you very much. And just a reminder that I spend most of my time on LinkedIn. James Rs williams.com. I have a newsletter that's the closest to my book you can read. So feel free to dive into that. And
Greg Voisen
I guarantee the book is coming. He has said that to me. Write a book. He'll write a book. Take care, James!
James Williams
Thank you Greg.
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Inside Personal Growth with Greg Voisen · Podcast 1106: The Seven Gateways of Spiritual Experience with Dr. Jonathan EllerbyMy guest for this episode is a rare talent and deeply experienced senior leader, keynote speaker, healer, and consultant, Dr. Jonathan Ellerby featuring his book The Seven Gateways of Spiritual Experience: Awakening to a Deeper Knowledge of Love, Life Balance, and God.
With more than 35 years of study and 25 years of professional experience, Jonathan is known for his lighthearted style, enthusiastic, infectious energy, and compassionate approach, translating his own extraordinary and wildly diverse experiences of holistic healing, spiritual experience, and peak performance into practical and personally relevant lessons for us all. He is a two-time bestselling author with Hay House Publishing and has spoken at events along with Wayne Dyer PhD, Deepak Chopra MD, Don Miguel Ruiz, and many other international icons.
From his work with Grammy award-winning and Academy award-nominated celebrities and multinational millionaire and billionaire CEOs, to his wellness travel groups in remote villages of southern Africa and more, Jonathan’s work always proves his professional agility and heart-centered commitment to meet and surpass the expectations of his clients and audiences.
Jonathan’s new book The Seven Gateways of Spiritual Experience: Awakening to a Deeper Knowledge of Love, Life Balance, and God is a journey through the seven most common and important spiritual experiences. Jonathan guides us in how to recognize and integrate the spiritual experiences that are already a part of our life and those that we may yet pursue. And this guide prepares us to face life with passion, purpose, and resilience.
You may learn more about Jonathan by visiting his website here.
Thanks and happy listening!
You may also refer to the transcripts below for the full transciption (not edited) of the interview.
Interview Transcipt -Not EditedEmailDownloadNew TabGreg Voisen
Welcome back to Inside Personal Growth. This is Greg Voisen and I'm in Encinitas. And Jonathan, Dr. Jonathan Ellerby is joining us from the British Columbia. And he is on the islands up there. And I've known Jonathan, well, it goes back more than 12 years. But we did a book together. I didn't I actually helped interview him through the book called God Works. And I was just looking on Amazon. So for all my listeners, we'll put a link to God works as well. But we're going to be talking about his new book, would you please hold that up? There you go, "The Seven Gateways of Spiritual Experience: Awakening to a Deeper Knowledge of Love, Life Balance, and God. Thank you for that for holding that up. So, now everyone can see that. I'm know that a lot of my listeners probably know you from some of your previous books, but I'm going to tell them a tad bit about you. And for those of you who want to, you can learn more about Jonathan at Jonathan Ellerby. That's e-l-l-e-r-b-y. There, you can learn about the book, which is now released in it's on Amazon. You actually can learn about his workshops, you can learn about a lot of things, but he is really kind of a rare talent. That's true. And he is a healer, and he's a consultant and extraordinary human being. When it comes to the transformative process. He's a two-time best-selling author with Hay House. Publishing, Jonathan has spoken at events along with Wayne Dyer, Deepak Chopra, Don Miguel Ruiz, Gregg Braden, Perlin Moss, Brian Weiss, Andrew while we were just talking about, and many other international icons from his work with Grammy Award winning and academic award-winning nominees, so celebrities and multinational millionaires and billionaires, CEOs to the wellness levels, groups and remote villages of South Africa. Jonathan is an expert in comparative religion focused on indigenous healing traditions and cultural cross-cultural research. And he has experienced in countless trainings in a wide range of complementary and alternative fields of healing, integrative medicine. He has been featured in film radio print multiple event forums, expert on mastering change, integrative Wellness and Resilience, mindfulness and holistic approaches. He's been featured on CBS, NBC, and better TV. And if you want to learn more, you can read the whole bio, that I was reading from it, his website, it's there. He's a wonderful man, big heart. And so, Hey, Jonathan, you know, what's just kick us off? You know, you've written other books, you've collaborated with so many people, you've really been around the wellness field and how spirituality affects us overall, when we look at mind, body and spirit, and how spirit is a big component? What led you to develop these seven gateways of spiritual experience? And why did you want to do it? And why now? Because of all the people you didn't really need another book?
Dr. Jonathan Ellerby
Yeah. Oh, those are? That's a great question. What like, why the book, not? What is it about? So? Okay, so for people listening, the book takes you through a spectrum of spiritual experiences, seven spiritual experience, types or categories. And they range from the most common to some of the most extraordinary, but what they all have in common is that we find them in all cultures, we find evidence and documentation about them around the world and throughout time. And the reason why I think this book is so important, is because I do believe that for the good of our common future, we need a more expansive model of what it means to be human, a more expansive model of the mind of the heart of our interconnectedness. And I do believe that spiritual experiences are a kind of bridge to that expanded understanding that whether you call it a paradigm shift or a new worldview, I think spiritual experiences have always served to help people to transcend the ordinary and embrace the extraordinary and in practical terms, that means healing. So Self healing, it means adaptation, it means resilience means innovation. But I do want to add a more personal side of the reason behind the book, which is whether you really motivated to evolve yourself or your journey for the common good, and to be a part of this collective evolution or not. I think that spiritual experiences make life worth living, and that they deliver us tools and perspectives that bring us to wholeness in a very, very real way, a very immediate way. In fact, there's a lot of research in the field of psychology and psychiatry that shows that many, many conditions, particularly mental health conditions, addictive conditions, and so on, are are not transformed until a spiritual experience occurs. And yet, here's the catch. People are having these experiences all the time, and they miss them. They, they don't pay attention to them, they don't reflect on them, they don't talk about them, they don't know how to integrate them. So to conclude, these seven categories will help people to see, wow, the mind is so much greater than I knew, the spiritual world is so much greater than I knew, the experiences that I have, are not those that define me as weird or other, those are experiences that connect to me. And here's how better to recognize them, work with them, and, and even integrate their meaning into our lives. So that's, in a nutshell, what the whole thing is about.
Greg Voisen
Well, and it, it brings up for me as you were talking, you know, we've all wanted to elevate consciousness, it's spoken a lot about that, right? consciousness, awareness, awareness of the events that occur in our life that are spiritual, right, and to recognize them. And a thank you, for you talking to my audience, which is in particularly pretty focused on spirituality and improving their wellness and their health and integrative medicine. What are the key characteristics of each of these seven spiritual experiences that you present in the book? And how can they contribute to one of my listeners or all of the listeners growth, and I'm gonna say, transformation. And and I want to add to this, that, you know, there's so much experimentation going on today with iOS, SCA, and various micro dosing, to try and have this experience. But you're the person that would tell somebody, you don't really need that to have the experience. And I and whether you've done that or not, or I have, it doesn't matter, the reality is you're looking at for it in everyday life, not just this one time where I go to iOS, Oscar, I microdose, something to give me this experience, granted that might set you off. But I'm really interested in finding out what are the key characteristics of each of these seven.
Dr. Jonathan Ellerby
All right, so we have time together. So I can walk through all seven, but try to be concise. Yeah, are distinct each of them in terms of what they're like, and then you're also asking, what's the value of each one? So it was that, that little journey together?
Greg Voisen
We can do that? And let's see how it goes. Okay, very good. And
Dr. Jonathan Ellerby
then maybe where we want to go after, you know, after that is, so what, what triggers them? How do we optimize the chance that we'll have them because that's a different sort of review. So we have seven. And you could think of it as a kind of pyramid in terms of what is common, what is normal. So the foundation of this pyramid is a category called truth and beauty experiences of truth and beauty. So this is the broad, everyone's having these, I believe, in some moments in some measures throughout their life. And then as we progress through the seven, you're going to hear descriptions of experiences that are less and less common, although equally as universal, and equally as available to us all. So the first category is experiences of truth and beauty. And these are really brief, aha, or breakthrough moments of wonder and awe in ordinary settings. So great example, I'm driving to the gym this morning. You know, had a very busy day. So I left a little extra early. I was frankly still a little bit disoriented, rushed out of the house. I'm just like anybody else For a full plate, but I get in the car and I hit the highway and as I connect with my breath and slow down and come more into the present moment, I just found that there was this this instance where I turned to the left and I saw the sun rising over the pine trees, filtering through the morning fog, the music on the radio on or that I was playing that just came on randomly on my phone. It all came together. And, and I was just transported for a moment. For a moment I felt expansiveness for a moment, I felt through this sort of evocative music, a sense of connection to the to the magnitude of life and art of people and what we all go through. And and then and this is just actually what happened. And then this really big freighter truck pulled right into the highway, kind of cut me off, I had to slam on the brakes, moment was over. We have those moments, people have been playing golf, they have them making love, they have them, baking bread, they have them gardening. But what happens is, the next thing comes and that brief moment is gone. We don't stop to say what just happened? What did I feel? What did life look like in that moment. And what experiences a truth and beauty reveal, if we pay attention is that no matter how narrow the moments of our life become, no matter how constricted our hearts or minds become because of stress, worry, hurt, wounding. There is always a bigger story, that we are a part of a world in which love and beauty and wisdom are really always a present. They're always present just to step away. So the value of those little aha moments, those little breathtaking moments, is that if we pay attention to them, they remind us we are not our story. We are not only what we're doing, we are not confined to our moments, and that we are a part of something expansive. And, and really, that beauty. That vibrancy.
Greg Voisen
I use an example of yesterday with the lips. Oh, lips. Yeah, right, man. So let's, let's talk about something that really makes you feel very small in a very big world, which was the total eclipse yesterday, then. Now here in Southern California, we didn't get to see much of it. But the reality was, it's like, what an aha moment that people took the time to travel to certain places to see this, you know, 31 million people or whatever the number was, it's what's important is is that got blasted out everywhere for everybody to take a pause and say, Wow, what's my significance in the bigger picture?
Dr. Jonathan Ellerby
Yeah, exactly. That you nailed it. And, and it was, you know, for some people yesterday, I got messages, texts, and they said, Wow, I didn't see it. But look at these NASA photos. And then little comments, like what a world we live in. And the reason why this is so valuable, and we can certainly move on to the next one is that even those these are fleeting moments. If you cultivate present moment awareness and mindfulness, you are more likely to have these possibly every day. And when you have them, savor them, and ask yourself, what is this showing me? And how does this help me face what's next? More often than not, our greatest challenges are made more challenging by the narrowing of attitude and mind and heart. And these little moments of wonder, opened us up. And we remember, there's much more going on.
Greg Voisen
And I really think Jonathan, it's about being aware when they occur. You know, it's one thing like you could have been driving your car and been totally not present. And not been aware of that. Or you can choose to be present. And that leads us to probably the second one because you said there's seven going up. Because we really have to practice certain things in our life, to create that level of awareness. Whether it's bits of solitude, or meditation, or prayer, or energy healing or yoga, or whatever the practices are, we have, we've got to use those practices to become more aware. So I'll let you get on to the next one.
Dr. Jonathan Ellerby
The next one? No, it's great. Next one also occurs in ordinary settings. So it's called ordinary magic. and ordinary magic is when we have an experience that is unexplainable. But it occurs in an ordinary scenario, ordinary meaning we're not in a religious setting. We're not in a spiritual setting. We're not involved in some spiritual practice, but something happens that blows our mind. So some great examples would be extraordinary synchronicities. This is probably the most easily accessible example of ordinary magic, the chance, I often tell the story about this, this old friend that I started thinking about while I was traveling and to frankly, too, he and I don't live in the same place anymore. I was in an airport where he doesn't live and I was traveling to a place that he doesn't live, but it was something about the airport. That reminded me of my past. I was thinking of him. Long story short, I ran into him that day in that airport, and the statistical improbability that is extreme.
Greg Voisen
synchronicities. Yeah, so
Dr. Jonathan Ellerby
synchronicity is a great entry point to ordinary magic. But I include other things like spontaneous remissions, radical healings. You know, these kinds of encounters in which someone, you know, I know a woman, for example, that I've worked with who was given a year long diagnosis, or a diagnosis of a year to live with cancer. And about five years later, same woman was given five months to live. 15 years later, she was good, I'm not kidding. So her journey of having a few months left to live ultimately lasted over 20 years. She's 83 right now. So this point, cheese is gonna die of old age. But good for her. No one understands it. Right. So ordinary magic, but you've got to look for it. Again, don't dismiss it. When someone tells a story. Ask a question. When something is curious, pay attention. And be on the lookout?
Greg Voisen
Where do you put signs and symbols and stop signs and noticing things in our environment that actually trigger something because we were aware, it's one thing to see a stop sign, and go, Oh, it stops. I just went through it or to see a billboard, or to see a bird fly by or to see any of these things. Right. So my question for you is, when do we use that intuition that comes from a higher source to really pay attention to those things? And what are they telling us about what's going on in our life? Well,
Dr. Jonathan Ellerby
Greg, you constantly reveal your your decades of understanding. That is it if people practice what I call symbolic sight, to look for the symbolism, the metaphors, the meaning in those synchronicities those moments, not just wild events, but the moment like you're saying, where, you know, you wish for a sign, and then all of a sudden, an owl flies in front of your car, or, or you're trying to decide if you should stop or go when you pull up to the stop sign, and it's fallen over. But you know, it should be standing, you know, that go sign, right. Like, I would say that that's, that is this category, ordinary magic. And the idea is that we live in a magical world very simply, that there is more interplay between the spiritual, the mysterious, the higher dimensions of reality than we might ever consider and the values of ordinary magic. In other words, like you ask, why is it good for us hope? And guidance? Or meaning, right, hope and Guidance means I think the way the world I think the world works one way. And now that this has happened, I'm reminded, maybe not. Maybe extraordinary things are always possible. They don't always happen. But they are always possible.
Greg Voisen
Well, they don't always happen the way you expect them to happen, but they usually happen. It's the fact that you have an expectation, and it brings me to this off the wall question, but I know it's when you can feel because you said let's go anywhere, anywhere. And you know, I remember this. My dad died many, many, many years ago, but the Native American traditions, as you know, have lots of symbolism, signs, stories. And we as a western world kind of lost a lot of this along the way, right? And you're a guy who studied all of this. So my dad's in the hospital, and there's an owl outside the window. And he knew about Native American tradition and the owl because you just mentioned an owl and he says I'll be here As long as the owl is here, the owl left and he died. Like literally, within hours. I mean, I tell this story because this is true and real and even said it to me. He said, Greg, as soon as that owl leaves, that's when I go. Now, you got to say, Well, maybe he put it in his mind that that's what he was going to do, or what was the symbol? But the reality is, that's a pretty telling kind of thing. And it meant a lot to him. Yes,
Dr. Jonathan Ellerby
absolutely. It's a fabulous story. It's a great example of ordinary magic. Why is it called ordinary magic, because he was in an ordinary place a hospital, he was doing an ordinary thing, which is dying. And an owl is is an organ, it's a bird, that was a real thing. He didn't make it up, it was there, anyone could see it. But there's something genuinely magical about it. And, and so these kinds of experiences connect us to the realization that spirituality is not just about belief, it's not a logical projection, we are in relationship with a world that is much more dynamic, much more intelligent, and, and much further beyond our grasp than we might know. Now, I'm going to tell you a quick personal story. That reminds me of your story. And then we're going to leap into category three, because they're connected. I know
Greg Voisen
we're going to get to three. And then when you're at what I want you to keep this in mind, this isn't a compound question. But what role to the personal beliefs, values and assumptions that we have play in shaping our experiences of this spiritual world? Because, you know, that was my dad's belief. Right, right. And so I'm wondering this, how are these interconnected? Yeah. And I think our listeners would like to know that too, because they're not like sitting here going, Well, I see the seven steps. Well, they don't. There's these these seven gateways, I should say, but you're going up the path to number three right now, because that's where we are. So let's get on with it and see what that is. Alright, so I've, on the edge of my chair,
Dr. Jonathan Ellerby
I've written a note about the belief and the role of belief, which we're going to talk about, after my story and description of category three. So my story is somewhat similar to yours, or I think, related, in a way was that my dad, of quite some time ago was being cared for at home. He was in the final stages of his his experience of cancer. He wasn't expected to live much longer, but he was kind of at that end stage where could have been days could have been weeks could have been months. No one. And my mom and I was at their home sitting out in the backyard. This is this is quite literally, non exaggerated story. We're sitting there in the backyard talking and we look over the part of the house that he's staying in, in a hospital bed. It's a den. One, one room, one story room, nothing above it, just the roof. And my mom says, Well, what is that? And we look over it, and there is a peacock, a peacock on the roof over my dad. Now we didn't live in India, we didn't live in the Costa Rica. There are wild peacocks where we live? Could it have escaped from a zoo? Sure, could have some maniac who collects peacocks had it in the back of his truck. Okay, okay. All that's possible. And at the time, I was, as I have been immersed in indigenous communities. And my mom said, What do you think that means? And I said, well, in the world that I'm a part of, probably something significant is going to happen with dad in the next four days. And four days later, he passed, just like that. You can't make this stuff up. So let's jump from ordinary magic into the third category, which is spirit world experiences. And they're very connected, because ordinary magic seems to point us towards the possibility that there is something out there that is more than us more than imagination, and more than belief, but we'll talk about the role of belief. So spirit world is a category is an experience of any being that doesn't really have a physical body, although maybe shows up in a body once in a while, like that mysterious person at the gas station that saves you you know from you know, the bad people. I mean, I I've had hundreds of stories of that from people, strange people who show up, protect them in a dangerous moment and disappear completely. Even Even people who tell stories about being in hospitals, and strange people coming to the room, turning on a machine that was forgotten, giving them water when they needed it, and then disappearing and no one ever seen them again. It can be physical, but more often than not, this might be in a dream, this might be in a meditation, it might be in a kind of waking visualization. In the spirit world experiences, though what's unique in this sort of approach is it's anything that's a being and that would include Jesus or Krishna, or an Ascended Master or an angel. What defines this category? Is there is a, a being with its own intelligence, its own gifts, its own capacity to interact. And whether you believe it or not, it shows up for you. Now, two quick, well, quick story. And then let's talk about belief. Is belief necessary for an experience of spirit world? Or any of this? And the answer is no. And yes, so let's deal with know, my dad, same guy, same cancer journey. About six weeks before the story I just told maybe maybe two months, he was in a wheelchair, again, being cared for at home. Much better condition, obviously, it feeding himself eating, sitting at the kitchen table with my mom. And he looks up and he's, wait, before I give you the next step. My dad was the most rational, materialistic, non spiritual, didn't believe in that stuff. Religion was a tool and a weapon of politics, not into any of this. Okay. So that's the proper context. And it just so happens that the night before I happened to be at an indigenous ceremony, a sweat lodge, and then went home thinking about my dad a lot. And what I was wondering is like, almost to your point, gosh, you know, indigenous people pray to their ancestors for help, and they show up and help them. How can white folks can't pray to their ancestors. So that night before bed, a little candle, kind of got down on my knees, so to speak. And I made a prayer to my to my dad's dad, my grandpa, and they said, Grandpa, like, I don't know if you can hear this. I don't know if this is going to work. But what's the deal? How come all the Native people have helped from their ancestors, and we don't have any. And all I knew was that my dad, Mr. Rational, was really struggling with the end of his life, and scared of what was next. You know, he was a very competent person, but it was obvious. He was becoming agitated. I went to bed. Next day, get home from my university classes, a phone call from my mom. My mom says, Jonathan, I gotta tell you what happened this morning. I was sitting at the breakfast table with that. He looks over my shoulder and says, Do you see him? She says, What are you talking about? He says, my dad. My dad is standing in the kitchen by the stove. He described him in vivid detail. And my mom said, What is he there? For? What what's he doing? And my dad cynical, says, I think he wants me to know it's going to be okay. That day forward, he was at peace with his journey. He didn't believe in it. But it happened. And I believe that is absolutely real. So, belief potentiate. It's the opportunity for spiritual experience in my PhD. I was working with traditional healers in South Africa and South Dakota. And there's no question that in the indigenous world, they understand that the mind is a mechanism for transformation. It is not the evaluator of reality, right? It's a participant in reality. So if you believe something, it is more likely to happen. Or if you believe in a realm or reality than that reality will utilize your belief as a perceptive vehicle. But as my story about my dad indicates, it's not necessary. And I know that there are 1000s of people that will listen to your show, this show and other of your shows, who never expected something like this to happen, and they have stories too. And what about
Greg Voisen
what is the role of we talked about genuine spiritual experiences. And then I don't really know how to put this but potentially deceptive, or harmful influences. So I look at the term discern. Yeah, well, the discernment to me from a psychological standpoint, sounds like I'm using my physical world reality and my brain to think of it when usually spit virtual experiences. I'm not saying they're not connected. But the question is, are they interrelated? So, my question for you with this is, what would you advise the listeners out there? You know, look, we're on three. So there's four more to go. And I want to get to them. But I also think that some of this is experience, whether we get is important whether we get or not. Right? So the question then becomes, is somebody out there who gets that sign? And they're, they don't pay attention? Or they do pay attention? What does that mean?
Dr. Jonathan Ellerby
Well, I think you've wrapped a few questions in one. So I'll try to I have, I usually do that. That's okay, that's good. I'm going to try to be focused for once and pick through them. So the first thing is, whatever the spiritual experience, your intuition and your heart must be a part of your evaluation. Doesn't feel so if you accept that it's happened. But it doesn't feel right, or you don't feel ready, or it somehow feels compromising or scary. I would say, get help. Talk to someone, ask for advice. Do some research. Just because a sign has been given from the spirit world, or a spirit shows up in a dream. Just like getting advice from a therapist or a doctor or an exercise physiologist, doesn't mean you're fully equipped to put it to work right away. Sometimes you need time. Sometimes you need more perspective, sometimes you need a second opinion. So always vet the spiritual experience, through your integrity through your heart, through your intuition. That's the first piece, the second piece, is it possible to have spiritual experiences that are dangerous, or hurtful or scary? Yeah, I mean, ultimately, if this is real, and there's another world out there, then sure anything that can help that can hurt. But to that, I would say generally speaking more often what we are afraid of is not something scary, but something that scares us. And the difference is scary suggests there's something in it that's wrong or bad or evil. I'd say more often than not, we are just unnerved by spiritual experiences, because they break with Norm. They challenge our identity, they challenge our assumptions about how the world works. That's what makes most of the experiences scary, they threaten the ego. On the other hand, are their dark forces, which to me was somehow hidden question inside what you were asking? Or can we have experiences that might be harmful or are not worth following? I'm very cautious about the way I answer this, because I don't like to feed the belief in evil and those sorts of things. But I will say, it is my experience that there are certainly spiritual forces that seem to amplify our weakness. And I prefer to just leave it at that and say, good example of that power of belief. Don't give it energy, put your energy on goodness, on healing on light. Because there is nothing in spiritual world that's more powerful than you. Because you've been given the gift of a body. And choice and mind and heart, your density makes you powerful, you don't need to will a pen to fly across the room, you could just pick it up and throw it. So even if you feel a spooky force in the room, only your mind gives it power. It has no ultimate power, because you've been given the greatest privilege.
Greg Voisen
And I think that's the most important thing that you've really said is that, you know, you use that example of the lady that's now 85 years old. That was such an insightful example. Because you literally said, hey, look, somebody told her some doctor told her, Well, you have six months, you got three months. Now, you you now you're 20 years later, you're still here. She's a perfect example, who did not allow the way the information was received to influence her ultimate outcome? Now, some people say well, and I don't want to go deep into this. But you know, in the Akashic records, was it written that she wasn't supposed to do that? Right. So, I mean, you know, you're saying that things come across whether they're scientific or not. We have the opportunity, and you mentioned it earlier. spontaneous remission. Right. Does it occur? It certainly does occur. It's written about all the time. So you know, when you get that diagnosis, how you look at it is really probably how it's ultimately going to affect you. Yes,
Dr. Jonathan Ellerby
and I think what you're pointing to words is that the journey of wellness is not a journey of control. It is a journey of optimizing possibility and potential, which means my family has a history of heart conditions, there is a certain genetic predisposition, I cannot change, but I can change 100 other choices that may diminish that impact. And I believe that those choices and changes are not only physical, but their mental, emotional and absolutely spiritual. So, you know, quick, quick other example, I just had a call this morning, coaching call was someone who just has a new cancer diagnosis, and they found a large tumor. And I said, Well, okay, so one thing I want you to commit to is that we are not going to talk about how cancer has you, we're going to talk about you in the future after this. And we're going to utilize the power to overcome and picture you beyond it, you are not your illness, you are not your poverty, you are not your childhood, these things influence you. But to your point, the mind is a powerful element.
Greg Voisen
Yes. And with that, I'll let you move on to four.
Dr. Jonathan Ellerby
All right, so number four, and and we can kind of accelerate the last two because they're they're very similar in categories. Number four, is called the experience of the cosmic self. Now it sounds sounds really grand, but again, universal cross cultures throughout time. And this is the phenomena of experiencing yourself beyond your body. So think out of body experiences, think astral travel, think of lucid dreaming, so you feel that you are you but you are not confined to your body. In that experience, the most prevalent and sort of attention grabbing experiences are near death experiences, virtually all near death. experiencers have a kind of out of body experience in which they describe themselves, but the body's left behind. So this is an experience that allows us to consider our own magic, our own complexity, our own capacity to be more than what's been done to us or what's happened to us. And so whether it's again, astral projection, out of body experience, near death experience, dreamlike experiences of our spiritual nature, these experiences compel us to see that we are so much more than what we've ever been taught. And certainly, than anything that's happened to us. So that's, you know, that's in a nutshell, easy to encapsulate, I don't know if you have a question. Ready to well,
Greg Voisen
you know, I, I believe that we all have experiences in our life as we go along. The older you get a be, the more of them you have, that allow you to have that out of body experience, because you let go of so much of the I'm just gonna call it Maya that exists, you know that the things that we have that every day we deal with, like you said, this morning, I woke up, I rushed down, I want to get to the gym, bla bla bla bla bla bla bla. And the more we give ourselves time for that meditation salience, the more opportunities we bring up to have experiences which are supernatural. Right there
Dr. Jonathan Ellerby
and the useless Yeah, absolutely, and the fabulous mechanism. And you've talked to other experts and professionals about physical wellness, basic ingredients of peak performance, they crossed the lines in all human dimensions. In other words, if you're a whatever, a football player, basketball player, even a concert pianist, you practice and practice and practice, so that when you must perform, everything comes naturally. And if there's a setback, or a challenge or something expected, you automatically know what to do, those behaviors come easily. So in a similar way, if we pray every day, if we meditate every day, if we practice, guided imagery every day, if we do energy work every day, or any or all of these kinds of things. If we practice being mindful every day, then we are more likely to fall into these experiences and have the natural capacity to hold them. And instead of run from them, Fear from them feel threatened by them. Accept them, be curious, invite them in. And that's interesting. Because the next category is experiences of the energy world, and or divine energy is what the chapter is called in the book. Again, on a spectrum, you might take time to study energy, healing, Reiki, even reflexology would count, therapeutic touch, healing, touch, quantum touch all kinds of stuff. And you begin to learn the language of energy medicine, you begin to sense the subtle energies of the body. These are important. These are six, would you
Greg Voisen
put somatic breathing in there as well? My question for you is, there's a big rush right now on, you know, obviously, somatic breathing and conjunction with let's just call it saunas. Right? Let's, let's go take a sauna, then let's jump in a cold ice cubes, then let's go do somatic breathing. And I think somatic breathing. I'm not saying it doesn't get it's just do. But I will say based on the people that I've spoken with recently, like sage, he has neuro acrobatics is what he calls it, Sage rate rater. That, wow, the experiences people are having, just by breathing is out of this world.
Dr. Jonathan Ellerby
So So here's an interesting thing about our culture. Our culture likes nouns, not verbs. So they want to make everything a thing. They want to study ayahuasca, they want to study psilocybin, they want to study breathing, they want to jump into the cold water, they want to get into the hot box. All of those things matter. All of those things can work. But what you're pointing us towards is what are people experiencing that makes them come back to it? Because it's not just the physiological benefits? And breathwork absolutely could bring you to any one of these experiences all some somatic breathwork Holotropic breathwork yogic pranic pranayama, no question. This is probably the most time honored vehicle to access spiritual states. And let's just go one step deeper. The other end of the spectrum of energy is when people actually experience a direct visual of the energy world or even dissolve into it. So in the psychedelic experiences, very often, these plant medicines are catapulting people into a mode of perception in which nothing exists, but energy. And we start to feel or perceive analogies with the quantum realm, or the subtle energy realm in the world of physics. And ultimately, what it helps us to understand is the vast interconnection of life, and the reality that our reality is perceptive. And that there are always deeper and deeper layers that not only humble us and put things in perspective, but empower us to participate and use our energy to interface with the energy of others. If people simply learned energy awareness alone, I do believe their physical, mental and emotional lives would be transformed and spiritual experiences would be frequent. I
Greg Voisen
think the vibration at which we appear to go I mean, look, it's like a vibratory attunement. Are you going to operate at a high vibrational level? And if you do, you're going to be more attuned to that. So number six, and number seven, you said, we're kind of close together and let you finish. And then I have one last question to kind of wrap up our podcast here. But let's let you get in sixth and seventh,
Dr. Jonathan Ellerby
right, right. So six and seven are such vast categories that they're actually easily easily summarized in simple terms. Because it'll begin to pull them apart as a whole, you know, lifetime of study. These are what academics would classically call the mystical experience. Now, some people use that word for all this. But the mystical experience, academically speaking, is the felt sense that you have contacted the ultimate nature of reality. So in the formless spirit experience, category six, we perceive in some way, the consciousness, the energy, the presence, that is behind all things that all things come from. It is often described as an enlightenment experience or experience of God, or, you know, the substance of all things. It's unifying, it's inspiring. It is transcendent, but the experience of pure consciousness, possibly the most unusual, but again, universal, and and timeless. The last of the seven categories is the experience of pure consciousness. This is when We slipped into the very formless energy, that is all things. And in that dissolving of boundaries or identity barriers, we quite literally, as the mystic, say, become one with all things right? defines what defines seven from six in the categories is in the moment of pure consciousness, you don't even have awareness of yourself to say, I am seeing this, when we come out of it, we are able to say, Wow, I was that it was me. And I provide quite a descriptive example of what that's like in the book.
Greg Voisen
Well, and I think, you know, look, it's these seven gateways of spiritual experience that you're writing about. And you did a really great job of explaining it to the listeners. And I'm going to encourage them all to go get the book, we're going to have a link to Amazon, you're also going to go to Jonathan's website at Jonathan ellerby.com. There, you can read an excerpt from the book, you can actually see the book itself, and then go to Amazon, you can read the description there. Also, he's got two things, he's got the Africa experience, which I want you to click on, as well, because he's going to be leading a, I'm not even gonna call it a retreat, but maybe I'll call it a retreat. Yep. And do check out his websites. I'm very serious about this. I've known Jonathan a long time, there are certain people that are truly the heart of this work, and he is one of them, he definitely has a big heart for the work. It's dedicated his whole life to writing about this, having people experience it having people want to heal as a result of it, because he's been really deep into the wellness. And so with that being said, what are your hopes and aspirations for the impact of this particular book? Not all the predecessor books, but let's just say this sat on a shelf by itself on the readers, and really the broader spiritual seekers and spiritual community.
Dr. Jonathan Ellerby
Beautiful question and the perfect question to end on for me, which is, I feel passionately that the well being of individuals, communities, and our world requires, as you have taught, and as so many of your guests have said, it requires a radical reimagining of what it means to be human, what we accept as normal, what our fundamental worldview and paradigm is, and through this book, I hope that people will reclaim the centrality of spirit in that future. And by spirit, I don't mean something flaky or insubstantial, I mean, the significance of intuition in that future, love and kindness in that future, mutually out mutuality and stewardship in that future, creativity and innovation in that future, and the passion to work with the laws of nature, and not perpetuate this relentless fight against them.
Greg Voisen
I think the against SNESs is what is the big challenge that we all listen to Jonathan, and get the seven gateways of spiritual experience. But I want to add something because every time I hear the Dalai Lama, he I have a foundation called compassionate communications foundation. He's always using the word compassion. And he said, If there's anything that's going to heal our world as we know it, it's going to be the ability to people to have empathy and compassion. Now, I just had Judith Orloff on here, who's an empath speaking about that. And I've yet to have the Dalai Lama on but he's gonna come on. It's, I believe it's a matter of time, just a matter of time. But my point is, is that compassion for our fellow human beings and our self, self compassion in this whole process of our personal growth? And our experience is so important.
Dr. Jonathan Ellerby
Greg, I'm going to squeeze in a quick emphasis. How do we get to the depth of compassion necessary for the changes needed? I think we can do healing work. We can do self work. There's all kinds of tools, but there's substantial evidence that nothing catapults us into a lived feeling of interconnection and loving service as spiritual experience. So people want to jumpstart that future for themselves or our world, I do believe it's time to cultivate a deeper connection with self with others, and the world beyond ours.
Greg Voisen
And there's two things that only prohibit one from doing that. One is they say, time, we all have the same amount of time. And the second thing is investment. I'm gonna say an investment in a $12 book, or whatever this book costs is very inexpensive investment for you to go on the road and path and figure it out. So what I would say is investment for most of you listening isn't an obstacle that you're going to be challenged with investment or time. I think everybody needs to allocate the time to practice these experiences to understand what they are, and definitely go to Jonathan's website. This is my big Yahaya Jonathan, because he is certainly the most compassionate loving guy I've met doing this work. So go out and meet him. Jonathan. Thanks, Namaste to you. Thanks for being on onsite personal growth, and sharing your experiences and your wisdom and years of doing this work and health and healing and spirituality. You are a blessing to all of my listeners and myself. Thanks. Wow.
Dr. Jonathan Ellerby
Well, thank you, brother, and much love and blessings back to you. And we'll see you again..
Greg Voisen
And all the listeners out there.
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Inside Personal Growth with Greg Voisen · Podcast 1105: Intelligent Curiosity with Jim CathcartIt is both an honor and pleasure to be joined today by one of the top five most award-winning speakers in the world and a bestselling author, a good friend of mine, Jim Cathcart. He now has 26 amazing books to his name and we’re going to talk one of those, the “Intelligent Curiosity: The Art of Finding More“.
Aside from his books, Jim has also written and created hundreds of articles and video lessons. These and his recorded programs have all drawn millions of students around the world. His Top 1% TEDx video has 2.7 million views, all of his books are translated into multiple languages, including 3 International bestsellers. Also, Jim’s PBS television programs, podcast appearances and radio shows have reached millions of Success Seekers and he is often retained to advise achievers and their companies.
Jim is an Executive MBA Professor at California Lutheran University School of Management and serves as their first Entrepreneur in Residence. He has been inducted into the Sales & Marketing Hall of Fame in London for his pioneering work with his concept of “Relationship Selling.”
Jim’s book “Intelligent Curiosity” is an insightful guide that encourages readers to cultivate curiosity as a powerful tool for personal and professional growth. The book inspires its readers to adopt a curious mindset, ask better questions, and approach life with a sense of wonder. And whether you’re seeking to enhance your creativity, improve problem-solving skills, or simply enrich your daily experiences, “Intelligent Curiosity” offers valuable insights to help you discover more in every aspect of life.
You can learn more about Jim and his works by visiting his website here.
Thanks and happy listening!
You may also refer to the transcripts below for the full transciption (not edited) of the interview.
Interview Transcipt -Not EditedEmailDownloadNew TabGreg Voisen
Welcome back to Inside Personal Growth. This is Greg Voisen, host of Inside Personal Growth. And joining me from Austin, Texas is Jim Cathcart. And Jim and I have known each other for almost goes back to the days when I was in million dollar round table and doing insurance work. Not that I still don't have those licenses I do for all my listeners, but I'm not doing much work in that arena. I'm really I've kind of pulled back from that. Jim, good day to you. How are you doing?
Jim Cathcart
I'm doing wonderful. It's a great day in Austin.
Greg Voisen
It's always a good day in Austin, you got a lot of people that have moved there now because they love what's going on.
Jim Cathcart
I moved into Wimberley, which is just south of Boston on the way to San Antonio.
Greg Voisen
Oh, my goodness. Well, you know, it's, I've been there many times in the university draws a lot of great people. And you guys have a great city there until it gets too hot, then I can't handle it.
Jim Cathcart
Then it's time for San Diego again. Because that's one of the things
Greg Voisen
I could say is I can always just, I'm in Encinitas. So I don't have to go so far. But let our listeners know a little bit about you. There's probably people out there who listen to the show that don't know who you are. And then there's going to be some that aren't. But we're going to be talking about a book that he co-wrote called intelligent curiosity. Would you like to hold that up, please. And Lisa Patrick was the co-author on that book as well. The two of them. He has 26 books now to his name, and I'm going to tell him a little bit about your background, because I think it's really important is one of the top five most award-winning speakers in the world. His top 1% TEDx video has 2.7 million views. His 26 books are translated into multiple languages, including three international bestsellers. He's a certified virtual presenter, and the past a National President of the National Speakers Association. Jim's PBS television programs, podcast appearances, and radio shows have reached millions of success seekers. And he is often retained to advise achievers, and their companies advise their companies I'm sorry. Even his colleagues, some of the top speakers in the world have hired Jim to speak at their own events. He is an executive MBA professional at professor at the California Lutheran University School of Management, and he serves as their first entrepreneur in residence. He's been inducted into the sales and marketing Hall of Fame in London for his pioneering work with his concepts of relationship selling. He's also in the professional speakers Hall of Fame and has received the covenant Award and the golden gavel award. Did I say it Kevin Cabot can have it Robert Cabot,
Jim Cathcart
last name covet. Like Dick Cavett is the first name. There
Greg Voisen
you go. Well, for my listeners, that's that's a long bio, but it's worthy. He's definitely worthy of that bio. And this book that we're talking about, if you want to learn more about Jim, we were going to have a link to his website. But you're just gonna go to Cathcart ca th car t.com. There you can learn about. He's got a podcast, you can learn more about Jim. And he's also got a course so mentioned something about that really quickly. Because I think that's one of the things that we want to put a link to jam is that course that you have for $99 that anybody can get.
Jim Cathcart
There's a company out of Dallas area called corset fi co you are si fyx.com. And if you go to course of phi.com/acorns, plural acorns, then it takes you to the landing page for this video course. And it's a personal coaching course that I do. And it is only $99. So it's a very inexpensive and easily accessible course but it helps you no matter what level you're at in your career, especially at the more advanced levels to get more and more laser focused on the things that will move the needle for you in your career and in in the fields that you're pursuing. So we'll definitely
Greg Voisen
put a link to that in the blog for it. We're going to put a link to my listeners. So they know in the blog, you'll also see the link, a link in our list LinkedIn page where we put the snippets, so that people know we'll have a link to that as well. Well, let's get into intelligent curiosity, not just curiosity, because I think, you know, look, if you're a CEO of a company, or you're, or a creator of any type, you're curious, you have to be curious. I've been a guy who has been curious all my life. And I will say, I'm happy that I was because there's fascinating things that happen when you're curious, and you want to ask questions like I do on this podcast show. So the premise of intelligent curiosity is pretty fascinating. Can you share what sparked you and Lisa, to really write the book, and why you believe intelligent curiosity, and I want to underline intelligent curiosity is crucial in this, what I would call always on fast paced world that we live in today.
Jim Cathcart
Curiosity is basically part of being alive. You know, when you walk into a strange room, you're naturally curious. But are you intelligent about your curiosity, for example, let's say you and I go to a networking event, or one that could be a networking event. And we're just going because we happen to be in town, there's a conference going on in our hotel, we go down to the lobby, and we see it, and it's open. So it's not something we have to pay to attend. And we walk into the room while most people walk into the room, they look around, they look for the refreshments or look for somebody famous, and they gravitate toward that. But a person with it, who's practicing intelligent curiosity, has asked him or herself, why am I here? What matters to me most what possible opportunities could exist? It's like in I've got a friend who is a coaching client of mine, he was a ER doctor trained in emergency techniques for in hospitals. And he said, the first thing we're taught is when you walk into an ER, when there's a patient in there that needs attention. We're taught don't just focus on the patient. Read the room. Notice the whole setting. What
Greg Voisen
sounds like sounds like a good speaker, like yourself, read the room, right? I mean, you've spoken before millions of people. And the reason Yes, well, yeah. But the reason you're so connectable is that you know how to connect to them, I think was one set. I don't remember who said this, Jim, maybe it was you. But I'm going to make a quote,
Jim Cathcart
was probably move. It's a good one. Yeah. It was
Greg Voisen
a speak to the audience, as if you were in a theater, watching a movie, and speaking to your best friend right next to you about what was going on in the movie. And when you can make that kind of connection. It's really quite interesting, because you know, you're watching a movie with a friend. And the reality is, it's that intimacy that you're trying to create, and you are a master at that. And in the book, you talk about converting innate curiosity into a skill. How do you see this transformation happening in a practice? And can you provide an example kind of from your own life, where intelligent curiosity led to some kind of significant personal or professional growth? You
Jim Cathcart
bet. When I went to the First National Speakers Association meeting in Louisville, Kentucky, in 1978, the first one for me, there had been a couple before that. It was a newly formed organization for professional speakers. And I was there as a rosy cheek kid, with very little mileage, but I was big, I had become pretty successful. So I was doing almost 100 speaking engagements a year, but wasn't known widely. And these were all my heroes, the big kids, you know, this was, this was the seniors table and I was a freshman. And I walked into the convention center, and I looked around, I saw all these people. And, of course, my tendency was to go over and stand near them and just pick up a little bit of their essence. You know, catch the vibe, but I didn't do that. I went over to the registration desk, to the man that was checking people in his name was Bill Johnson. And I said, I'm Jim Cathcart. It's my first time here. I don't know anybody or how this works. Is there some way I can be helpful? He said, What do you mean? I said, Well, you need anything done that you don't have somebody to do it? He said, Well, yeah. He said, Could you go put these signs on the meeting room doors down there? And I said, Sure. So I went down and did that. And I came back, got my registration material. And then I went over and I stood near the group that seemed to be the most substantial group in the room, because I just wanted to eavesdrop. And they invited me into the group, you know, they saw me and they opened their circle up and to come in here, who are you? I said, I'm Jim Cathcart. And they said, Well, tell us about yourself. Thank heavens, Greg. I had the presence of mind not to, because I had nothing to say. I was a nobody. I told him very little, you know, where I was from and what kind of work I did. And then immediately asked questions, you know, asked him about them. What were you talking about when I walked up? Or what what seems to be the biggest issue today? You know, the questions that would throw it back to them, because I wasn't there to tell. I was there to learn. And I found that doing that caused me to be immediately embraced and accepted among people. I was definitely not appear of yet.
Greg Voisen
Yeah, well, you know, this. You know, this statement. People don't care how much you know, unless you they know how much you care. That's right. So yeah, well, that's a Zig Ziglar quote, but you know, it's not your aptitude that determines your altitude, it's your attitude. I mean, look, every one of these things that we're talking about here, it's timeless rate, we, I don't care what error you're in, you could be 50 years old, 30 years old, or 80 years old. All of these are applicable. And that's what I love about the content that you put in most of your books, is it? Let
Jim Cathcart
me know what you mentioned, Lisa Patrick, my co author. And the reason she's co author, she said she wanted to do something with me professionally. And I said, Well, Lisa, you're a former private investigator. Why don't we do a book on intelligent curiosity? And she said, that's who she was. Right? Yeah. You know, and
Greg Voisen
she emphasizes this concept of eligible receiver. Yeah, for opportunities. That's, you know, she's contributed to this book a lot. And I know what it's like when you co write a book, it's really a sometimes it's more challenging than when you just write it on your own. But the reality is, it's a kind of opportunity to grow beyond yourself, you know, I just co authored one called the precipice of life. And there were three of us. But can you elaborate on the metaphor and how we can cultivate the mindset and behaviors of an eligible receiver?
Jim Cathcart
You bet I got that idea. In the first place from Earl Nightingale, the Dean of personal motivation, I used to listen to his audio cassettes, which tells you how long ago it was me too. Yeah, every single day, I bought a $560. Earl Nightingale audio library of 36 cassettes in 1974, when they were 73, maybe when my personal income was 525 a month. So today, that would be like $3,500, that I paid for these recordings. And I was fanatical about listening to those every day. And the basic idea I got that kind of encapsulated the whole series was if you will develop the qualities, the traits of the person you want to become, then the things you want to do and have will come along with it. So if you become an eligible receiver, meaning you're downfield in the open, and have the skills to catch and run with the ball, they will throw you the ball, if you're downfield in the middle of a crowd, and not a particularly good catcher anyway, they're not going to throw the ball to you. Right? So yeah, I'm eligible for the opportunities you want. By learning the skills you don't need yet. Yet. By becoming the kind of person other people want to have as a neighbor, the kind of person that other people would love to have on their team, becoming the kind of person that if someone were really in trouble, they would turn to you.
Greg Voisen
Well, look, you're the kind of person and I don't know if I have this absolutely 100% Correct. But you you didn't grow up with a golden spoon in your mouth and you had a job when you were young. Before you became a speaker and hopefully I get this correct. But it was more of like a government job of some type was it was it or wasn't not making much money, but Well, the thing about you is you had grit determination and You wanted to be a speaker. So you listening to Cohn ad, or Norman Vincent Peale, I used to run around in my car with cassette tapes with Norman Vincent Peale playing all the time, right? And I, you know, and Nightingale and and the list goes on. And so I say to you, you know, maybe people can learn from just your determination and your grit, because literally you spoke at every event, you could get to whether it paid or didn't pay. And, and people ask, Well, how did he get to where it is? Because he put in the time, he put in the energy put in the effort. He learned from some of the greatest people around and really when you look at intelligent curiosity, that is the quintessential definition of intelligent curiosity, is you wanted to make the connections with with all the people, right?
Jim Cathcart
Thank you. Yeah, I was born in Little Rock, Arkansas. And my dad was a telephone repairman. And we didn't know anybody with money, and we didn't have any money. And I didn't graduate college, I had two years college, and I got married in 1970. And we had a baby and I was working in 72 as a clerk at a at the Housing Authority in Little Rock that was it, clerk murder all night and get on the radio and got inspired. Now I Greg I had had 44 Zero 40 different jobs, from the time I was a kid. Until that time, wow, 40, I worked at everything for six months, or a year or two years, you know, whatever, but did all kinds of things, everything from working in a warehouse to driving a truck to you name it, you know, sold donuts, door to door, sold mutual funds and life insurance. Man, I mean, I could go on late and play the guitar and sang in nightclubs, which I still do occasionally, all these years later, but when I heard her all night and go on the radio, he became my mentor, the first person to guide me beyond my own limited world view. And I learned that if I would notice more about every situation, I would discover opportunities that never would have occurred to me otherwise. So I had to teach myself how to notice more. And in doing so I was able to not only learn from the people you just mentioned, but became personal friends with Norman Vincent Peale. shared the stage with him a couple of times. W Clement Stone, you know, Zig Ziglar Earl Nightingale, Earl Nightingale. I heard his tapes in 1972, three and four. In 1984. He was selling my recordings. Yeah, well, it just shocked me I didn't call to apply.
Greg Voisen
Well, you know, that was one of the key. One of the key messages of this book intelligent curiosity is about the importance of asking the right questions. And, you know, I'd like you to share a technique or a strategy for crafting questions that leads to deeper insights and breakthroughs because they're, I know, look, I've been doing this podcast now for 17 years, I've done over 1100 podcasts. I just last week, had Guy Kawasaki on here. And guy told this story about being in the room with Steve Jobs, and telling Steve Jobs up when the ad came out about think differently. And there's a greatest story I'd never heard it. They said, the ad agency said listen to this, Jim, we have two copies. I'm gonna give one to you guy. And I'm gonna give another one to Steve. And Steve's steps out and here goes the question. Steve stands up and says, No, you're not you're going to give both copies to me. You're not going to give one to guy and guy is sits there. And he goes, and he says it's in Steve says to guy and it's because I don't trust you. Now he this was a defining moment for Guy Kawasaki. Yeah. He said, Steve. That's okay. I don't trust you either. Right. And he said in that moment, that was a 10s of millions of dollar mistake that he made. Right, right. So the, the point here was this. When you ask a question, and somebody says, Hey, I'm going to give the tape here. I'm going to do this. You really have to know when you're going to ask the question is we said here to get deeper insights and breakthroughs as to why Steve Jobs because he guy could have asked that question a little bit differently, and saying, I don't trust you You, he could have said, Well, why don't you trust me? Right? But instead he just said, No, I don't trust you. Yeah, they ended our relationship.
Jim Cathcart
He could have said, Steve, what do you trust?
Greg Voisen
Right. Right.
Jim Cathcart
What's that based on? See? That's the thing. I'm crafting questions. I want to know, what's that based on? What's that based on what's set based on until I hit solid rock? Right? So it's the why behind the why behind the why. Where's that coming from? Like our, our colleague, Bill Bacharach. He says, What? What's important about blank to you, so when he's doing is trusted advisor, coach training, he says to people, ask your client, what is it you're trying to do? And they say, Well, I'm trying to take care of my kids. What's important about taking care of your kids to you? Well, I want to make sure that they're safe and better than her let her die. And what's important about their safety to you, and you keep drilling down, and they say, Well, I grew up with no safety net. And I want to give them one, right, okay, now we got somewhere. So it's about a safety net. It's not about the kids, it's not about a bunch of other things. It's about the safety net. So let's focus on that. So it's like Vince Lombardi at the start of every training year with the Green Bay Packers, he would have a room full of veteran professional football players in front of him. And he would say, gentlemen, this is a football. And if you're on the offense, your job is to get this football to the opposing teams goalpost as often as possible. And if you're on defense, your job is to assure it never reaches our goalpost. So clear what the what the job was about. And everything else grew from that fundamental truth. Not some piece of it. You know, don't focus on symptoms, focus on causes.
Greg Voisen
Well, look, open ended questions are one thing closed into questions or another thing? But I think that the key is, is it learning how to ask good open ended questions that are allowing the whoever it is that you're trying to get to know better? An opportunity to express themselves so you truly understand their side of it? You know, to say to somebody, well, I don't trust you. That's not an open ended question. That's just literally a statement that I made. You want to try it a different way. And so it would have been a why question. Now. You know, one of the things this book talks about is failures and setbacks. And it says that there are opportunities for learning and growth. Now, I've only learned the most, from those kinds of things as I sit here at almost 70. And I look back at my life, and I go look at the challenges that I've faced, and there have been many, those have been the ones where I literally said, well, to pull myself up by my bootstraps, I gotta do something different. I got to figure it out. Can you share if you would, it's kind of a personal story where a setback propelled you forward because of an intelligent, curious approach.
Jim Cathcart
Yep. I had a business partner, not the one in La Jolla, who's still my dear friend, Tony Alessandra, but another partner along along the way, and I was all in, I had mortgaged my home and invested in this guy's company, and it was a closely held company. So he controlled what happened with it. And about two years into it, I was generating 100% of our revenue, he was generating none. And I went to him and I said, I've been looking at the deal we made initially, and it was based on this being a seminar company. But as it turns out, this is a Assessment Tool Company. And the guy said, Yeah, and I said, well, our original agreement doesn't allow me to build equity in the assessment side of the business, and yet, I'm the only one selling assessments, and I'm selling hundreds of 1000s of dollars worth of that. I get commissions, but I don't build equity. And he said, and what's your problem? I said, Well, I'm all in, you know, I want this to be something I can I can own for the rest of my life. He said, No. I said, What do you mean? No. He said, Jim, you don't get it, do you? He said, I got what I wanted. The fact that you made a bad deal is not my problem. Oh, wow. And I stood there stunned speechless. I've never been so blatantly dis betrayed in my life. And I was just staring at him and I said, he said is not not my problem. I said, Well, it is now. Because your revenue stream just dried up, I will not make another sale. And so we ended up in an attorney's office and my attorney said to me, Jim, you're in the right, and you can win. He said, you've lost, you know, maybe two or $300,000. Here. He said, We can win this lawsuit. But you'll never see your money. And you'll have to pay me a ton to be your attorney. He said, So let it go. I said, Well, I don't know how to let it go. He said, well figure it out. Yeah. I walked away, disappointed. But the more I reflected on it, the more I realized that my anger and resentment and hurt was me inflicting me with more pain. Exactly. And I asked, you know, what's that about? Well, that's a healing process. If you helicopter up, and you get perspective, you realize what you're going through is a very clinical emotional cycle. That's common to all crises, all human tragedy, right? Same thing, loss of a loved one, or any number of other things. And so once I recognized what I was going through for what it was, I was able to start finding a new path. And as I did, I wrote the book, The Acorn principle, which became my best selling book up to that point of all time. And it was number two best selling ebook in the entire world in the year 2000, behind Stephen King and ahead of Robert Ludlum.
Greg Voisen
So you, you've had some amazing successes. And I think when it comes out, if you look at it from a spiritual standpoint, the you know, you learned how to take what you thought was an injustice, and turn it around into an opportunity. And, you know, I think even I'm reflecting at this point on what seems to be kind of an atrocity, but people who are wrongly convicted and put in prison for 30 years, and then let out because, you know, and you think, well, what would their heart how hard would their heart be, as a result of the injustice that was done by a legal system or by a prosecutor by whatever, and I, I know those wounds can heal. And people can get to the other side, as long as there is a deep spiritual belief that there's something greater for their life out here to do. And that's really the point they have to understand that all this intelligent curiosity comes from a higher source. Yeah, no, it's always coming from religions
Jim Cathcart
recognize that everything that exist was created, how it was created, humans, probably not capable of knowing. But we can describe processes like a child being conceived and born. But we can't understand or describe what caused life to be in that one, when other couples are the same couple had tried so many other times and never had a child. So we don't know where life comes from. There's so many things in the world that even science has no answer for. And so it requires science requires faith. Right? Oh, so faith in what? Well, not, not in a particular mode of of worship, but in the understanding that there is a creative source that caused us to exist. And yeah, that source is either a good source or an evil source, you know, an angry judgmental source, or the, the source of life and love, I choose to look at it that way. And that makes my life so much more pleasant.
Greg Voisen
Well, you don't want to carry around the negative emotion of anger. And I think it was yesterday was a great example, with the Eclipse. You're in Texas. So maybe you saw this
Jim Cathcart
whole thing laid on the blanket in the backyard and watch those. But
Greg Voisen
the point of that is, is if you look at most people, they'll say what a spiritual experience that was to actually see something greater than ourselves occur. And it gives you an idea of really how small we all really are in the overall grand scheme of things. And I just thought it was just so pleasant to see that people were having these epiphanies about an eclipse about spiritual epiphany crying and and really getting very emotional about it and I think that's wonderful because it shows that emotion is being released as a result of us figuring out the connection be seek between something that's way greater than ourselves. And we all have that ability to connect with something greater than ourselves. Now, you mentioned in here, that fostering intelligent curiosity, it how important it is to step out of one's comfort comfort zone. Now, you've you and I have stepped out of our comfort zones, and everybody has in some way. And can you give an example of how it's applied in your professional experiences, because every time you do step out of your comfort zone, it's like, oh, it's a huge opportunity for growth emotionally, spiritually, intellectually, a lot of times even physically, because, hey, you're not going to do that double black diamond run down a hill, or do the kite skiing, or do the kinds of things that I've done, like, you know, bungee jumping, and going down to New Zealand and getting in a hang glider and all that kind of stuff. Those kinds of things are things that really push your comfort zone, right, let's face it, well,
Jim Cathcart
there's no growth inside your comfort zone. And it's interesting, I knew the man who coined the phrase comfort zone. His name's James Newman, Jim Newman, and he wrote a book called release your brakes. He's passed away now. But he was a fascinating and wonderful guy, a magician, member of the Magic Castle, and created a company called or training program called PACE, personal and company effectiveness back in the 1970s. Appear of Earl Nightingale and, and Paul. I'm Paul Meyer, of mama hair. Yeah, yesterday, my you know, people from back in the earliest days of the motivation, movement, human potential movement, but comfort zone, it just defines the area within which you don't feel threatened. Right? The more comfortable you are, the less you are growing. And if you get up each morning and say, How can I be comfortable today, then your life is gonna continually get smaller and atrophy until you die. of the people that the woke movement is all about. Nobody make nobody uncomfortable. How absurd is that? I mean, when I send my my little child to school, I want my little child to encounter resistance. I want them to have to learn about things they don't know, I want them to have to figure out how to get along with students that are not like them, how to how to find their way past the bullies and the bad guys, right? How to be safe when they're on their own. When my son was tiny, I kept him comfortable by holding him like this. As we walked across the street. When he got a little older, I held a death grip on his hand as we walked across the street. But he was walking a little bit older. I said, Stay by my side, but I wasn't touching him. So he's getting progressively more freedom. And when he got to an older age, because I trusted his judgment. I'd say Have a nice time. Let me know when you're home. Right. So freedom comes with growth, with ability with with capacity. And that's the thing if we've got to well, I'll give you a recent example, South by Southwest is an enormous gathering in Austin, Austin, Texas. were
Greg Voisen
you speaking there? Yeah, I
Jim Cathcart
was not speaking there. But I was part of the founders house sponsored by Ink Magazine. I was on their list of attendees because I'm a founder of my company. And I went downtown, didn't know a single person in that gathering. And I went downtown, parked my car and walked into the place. By the time I got in, in the door, and I had stood in line for half an hour. I had met probably six other people, one of whom I'm probably going to do business with and that was a woman that was behind me who had a cane. She was walking with a cane. And I said, Hang on a second. And I went to the front of the line and I said excuse me, there's a woman back here with walking with a cane. Do you have a way that disabled people can get to the front? And they said yeah, send her up here. And so I told her to go up there and she got in right away. Remember that later and get back to me by email, and we may end up doing business together. When we got inside when I got inside. The place was packed like a like a mosh pit at a rock concert. And so squeezing my way through the crowd and every time I had Make eye contact with someone I'd smile and greet them. And then I'd look at their name badge if they had one or I'd ask them a question. And it led to conversations that led to business dealings. You know it, but I was there alone outside of my comfort zone for sure. Is there no, Jim you you know all the things you've done 3500 Page speeches, you can me Your, your confidence is through the roof. No, it's not it contextually. It is yeah, in this context, he asked in that context, not so much. And when I show up as a stranger, someone somewhere I'm not who's who? Um, who is he? Right?
Greg Voisen
Yeah, that's good. Yeah, and the story is great, because it gives people an opportunity to see when you go beyond your comfort zone and talk to people in line, or you talk to the person at the checkout counter, or you ask a question of them, where you're more interested in them, than you are interested in telling them about you. Yeah, that's where you really start to get people because, you know, number one thing people like to hear is their name being said one, and two, trying to find out something where you break the ice with a question about them. And, you know, I used to teach the Dale Carnegie sales course here in San Diego, and I go back to Michael Crum. And grant Benning, whose daughter is Annette Benning, who I worked under for many years. And, you know, one of the things that we always learned in that course is, you know, which was asking open ended questions and being able to do it intelligently. Right. And so, you discuss in this book, the concept, which goes right along here, cause effect the context and implications. And in problem solving, because intelligent curiosity can be a big tool in helping you solve problems, most of the time it is right, because it's putting the dots together, we've had read a MoGraph on here before and read a speaks about actually forecasting into the future, what you can actually see, by putting the dots together today, you've got to be able to, you know, do that. And I think it was Steve Jobs had talked in his speech at Stanford, about you can't learn anything. By basically you, you learn most of the stuff you have by what happened to you, right that you can forecast? In other words, what are the things that are happening to me? And you walk us through a real world example, where this approach helped uncover a non obvious solution? Where you know, you, you weren't aware of it, I can think of many where it was like a surprise. I was like, Oh, my gosh, look at our solution that came up right as a result of being curious. Hmm. Well,
Jim Cathcart
my son came to me when he was a teenager, but like 13 years old, and he said, Dad, my friend, John Stan gets a allowance, and I don't I want an allowance. And I said, really? How does John Stan's allowance work? So this is cause effect. Context implications, right? So you know, the cause is he wants money, because he saw that his friend has money. And they said, Well, how does that work? He said, Well, he gets, I don't know what it was $50 a month. This was a long time ago. From his parents, and so he's got the freedom, you know, of having his own money. He said, I want my own money. And I said, okay, and then I started thinking, I, it's easy for me to say yes, and do this. Just give my son money each month. But what's the effect of that? Nothing. It just gives him money. What does he learn? Not a single thing. Right? So how does that you know, how's that a good parenting thing? It may be a nice courtesy, but it's kind of like, Here have some ice cream, you will feel better? Well, yeah, you may feel better for it for a few moments, but the ice cream didn't take you anywhere useful. So I said to my son, I want you to have total freedom to make your own decisions on money for the rest of your life. But first you have to learn the principles of how that works. Otherwise, I can't let go. So yes, I will give you an allowance. But you and I will work together to create it. Wouldn't you know he didn't know what I was talking about. So we sat down and we identified everything in his teenage life that required money, clothes, movie tickets, food, you know everything school registration fees, membership, have student clubs, you know, things like that at Toys, tools. And we listed them all on a bunch of pages. And then we prioritize them. Now this wasn't in one sitting, this was like four or five discussions. And he said, What are we going to get as we'll get there, just trust the process. So we had this long discussion about all the things that require money. And then we ranked them by priority. First off, basic physical needs must happen, not negotiable. And then we got to things that he would like to do, like go into a concert or something, right. So we had everything on the list and in big groupings, according to how important it was to him. And then I said, I will get out. First off, let me we divided all that money into 12 equal payments, so that you've got hundreds or maybe a few $1,000. And it's now divided into monthly increments. And I said, But these things don't happen in monthly increments. Some of them happen. And it's a big one and just the month of June. I said, so this is how budgeting works. So I taught him that. So these are a number of discussions over many weeks. But it resulted in him getting a regular monthly amount from me, for which he had to do certain things, to keep track of the money he had and the money he spent by category. And each year we did that all the way through when he left for college, he learned a new financial principle. So that by the time he took off for college, he had 1000s of dollars in the bank he had saved from the allowance I was giving him, because he always had take 10% off the top and put it in savings that he didn't touch. And he said, How's that Dad, I needed that as a deal? Find a way? And sure enough, he did. So when he went off to college, I could trust him with money decisions, because he had shown over like five years, he knew how to do it. Yeah,
Greg Voisen
it's uh, you know, I've, I've had somebody in with family offices, and you understand that, usually families with lots and lots of money. And they'll say, hey, you know, from one generation to the other, we see now that the family money has dwindled, because of two things. Is it a want? Or is it a need? And the reality is, is that most people are fulfilling a lot of wants, which are actually diminishing the succession of big amounts of wealth and families versus the true need, is this something we truly need. And I think, you know, look, we live in an always on instant society, anybody can go to Amazon, and anytime, and I'm not pointing them out. But it doesn't matter where you went to online shop. But the the example that you just gave about budgeting, I believe is so important for everyone. And it's a great reminder of what we just said, which was cause effect, context, and implications, you know, it all of those kind of go together. And what you taught your son at a very early age, is really quite remarkable, because a lot of parents never do what you just explained. That's
Jim Cathcart
right. And the important part of that whole story is that if I had just given him an allowance, which was easy on me, right, the easy way out for me is just giving him X dollars a month. If I had done that, the implication was, by the time he got, say to college, I would still have to supervise every financial decision he made, because he wouldn't know how to make them on his own. And he wouldn't have any savings because there was no discipline built into the learning process. And I would sit so it would be I would be postponing my work as a teaching parent for five years for current comfort, in exchange for grief at the other end. Right.
Greg Voisen
And, you know, look, we can point to many examples, you know, the Mike Tyson's and the Willie Nelson's of the world where they got themselves in trouble as a result of either overspending or not paying their taxes, right. And so,
Jim Cathcart
the reality is people that they didn't know how to supervise. Yeah,
Greg Voisen
yeah, it happens a lot. We, we see it in the news frequently of somebody you're thinking, wow, they made multi millions of dollars, and now they're completely broke. How could that be? Well, if you buy if you buy enough Ferraris, and Lamborghinis and big houses in Las Vegas, no matter how many people you punch out in a fight, you potentially are not going to have Have anything wept so? But I want to kind of wrap this interview up with this intelligent curiosity, which is so inspiring. Thank you for being on the show today. And what first step would you recommend that people take to start applying the principles that you and Lisa wrote about in this book, outlined in the book so that their lives and careers become better as a result of being more intelligently curious?
Jim Cathcart
Well, the essence of intelligence is making distinctions. Noticing differences and uniqueness, like you look at this bookshelf behind me, or behind you. And you say, Okay, this books, yeah, but what kind of books? And are there categories of those books? And there's something unique about these, you know, what, what's the essence of this? What do I notice? So here's your new mantra, everyone, notice more, notice more than what then you did before than you would normally then other people do. When I go to a meeting as a professional speaker, I show up the day before the event. Assuming I'm traveling to a convention city, and it's in a hotel, and I, when I check into the hotel, I go down to the meeting room, where it's going to be usually downstairs, and I check the room, and the rooms often locked. So I go around and find a side door if I can to get in to physically see the room. And it may be dark, but I can see the nature, the essence of the room structure of it. And what I want to know is where are the emergency exits are there obviously the doors you enter from but also those others that have the little red sign that says exit, and I follow those exits to see where they lead? Well, Greg, many times those exits lead to a circuit where you go completely around the ballroom before you get to a real exit. So their exits into an inner hallway that might be filled with smoke in a fire, or jam with people in a panic, right? So when I'm the speaker, and I'm standing on stage, I know how to evacuate the room if necessary. Because I've done it with 700 people on a Sunday, in the dead of winter in Washington, DC, when we were three levels below the street, and the building caught on fire. Let the people say, Well, how did you know? Because I checked it out in advance. I was curious if it's an emergency? Who's got a mic? Me? Who else? Nobody? Okay, so I'm in charge, at least by default, for the moment. And I would take charge of getting that audience to safety or getting a person who could onto the stage and give them the mic. You know? Well, it's
Greg Voisen
it's also intelligent curiosity, but it's preparedness, you know, I think in many different situations, that's what intelligent curiosity leads to, is that somebody who's done something enough, looks beyond what is normally seen. And, and looks for, I'm gonna actually just call it the opportunities, right, because in your case, you're looking for an opportunity to get people out of a room quit more quickly than they could. And you're able to do that. And gosh, only knows in the crazy times that we've been living in with people with guns and whatever, shooting up rooms, not not a good position, you want to be able to get out as quickly as you can. So, but your book is really designed for people, anybody. And again, I want to tell my listeners go to cathcart.com. Also, we're going to have a link that Jim will give us so that you can get access to his course. He has a podcast called is it wisdom? I want to make sure I get it right. Wisdom parlor. So go to that cathcart.com And check out wisdom parlor. He's got quite a few great podcasts there. You can also go to his speaker page, if you're looking to hire somebody to actually come speak for your event. You couldn't have anybody better than Jim The question is whether or not you can afford. Yes, speaking fee, but if you're looking for somebody to inspire, wow. I call them you call him. Yeah. And by the way, he's got a number listed right there. 805-777-3477. You can basically call him right there and discuss that. And I guarantee you it's a sliding scale. If it's in Austin, you'll probably do it cheaper as it might be someplace out That's right. Have you got an event coming up in Austin and you're listening, Jim Cathcart. Your guy's right there. Well, Jim, pleasure having you on inside personal growth again. It's been way too long. I really, really enjoyed our connection. I really enjoyed what you told us about intelligent curiosity. Blessings to you. Thanks for being on the show. Thanks for spending some time with my listeners.
Jim Cathcart
I appreciate it. You're my friend. Take care of Greg. Bye, everyone. Thank you.
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Inside Personal Growth with Greg Voisen · Podcast 1104: Get Quiet with Elaine GlassJoining us this episode is visionary author and highly experienced Master Life Coach, Elaine Glass featuring her upcoming book Get Quiet: 7 Simple Paths to the Truth of Who You Are. Its release date is on April 30 2024.
Elaine Glass is renowned for her transformative retreats tailored for women navigating intricate midlife transitions. Her path has been marked by significant leaps of faith. Understanding the profound impact of connection and compassion, she realized that true transformation occurs when people feel genuinely acknowledged and understood.
Driven by a profound sense of purpose, Elaine’s mission is helping people live their BEST life. And her deepest commitments serve as more than just inspiration, they serve as a catalyst for action. She inspires and encourages people to dive deep within, acknowledge their truths, and lead a life that is unapologetically authentic.
Elaine has this unique approach, known as “The Get Quiet Way”. It is a roadmap to discovering your inner treasures and bringing them fully up to the surface and out into the world. Relevant to this, Elaine’s upcoming book Get Quiet: 7 Simple Paths to the Truth of Who You Are will empower you to get back to feeling like yourself again. Here, she shares with you the story of her powerful choices to leave a troubled marriage and a fulfilling career that had simply run its course, to embrace a life that’s a match for who she knows herself to be.
Learn more about Elaine by visiting her website here. You may also pre-order the book by clicking this link.
Thanks and happy listening!
You may also refer to the transcripts below for the full transciption (not edited) of the interview.
Interview Transcipt -Not EditedEmailDownloadNew TabGreg Voisen
Well welcome back to Inside Personal Growth. This is Greg Voisen, the host of Inside Personal Growth and joining us from Paradise Valley, which is actually in Arizona. is Elaine Glass and Elaine has a new book out, Hay House book I might say, It’s Get Quiet, not getting, Get Quiet: 7 Simple Paths to the Truth of Who You Are. Good day to you. Elaine, how are you?
Elaine Glass
I'm amazing. Greg, thanks so much for having me. It's an honor.
Greg Voisen
I love your “I'm amazing”. I love when people say that that's the best part. So many of my listeners out there maybe don't know that much about you. So, they can learn more about you very simply by go going to getquiet.com or they can go to elaineglass.net, e-l-a-i-n-e-g-l-a-s-snet. But I'm going to just speak because Elaine has a special book here everybody and we're all in the midst of just so much going around in our world. It seems like it's tough, but I want to tell them a bit about you. She's a visionary author, highly experienced master life coach is renowned for renown for transformational retreats tailored for women navigating intricate midlife transitions. This book, get quiet will empower you to get back to feeling like yourself again. Elaine's path has been marked by significant leaps of faith, understanding the profound impact of connection and compassion. She realized the truth, or the true transformation occurs when people feel genuinely acknowledged and understood. Driven by a profound sense of purpose. Elaine's mission is helping people live their best underscore life. Her unique approach is known as the get quiet way. It's a roadmap for discovering your inner treasures, and bringing them fully up to the surface and out into the world. She encourages you to be who you are truly want to be, feel good again in your own skin, and realize your positive influence on your family in the world. Elaine's deepest commitments or service as most and just an inspiration. She serves as a catalyst for action she inspires encourages people to dive deep within acknowledged your truth and lead a life that's unapologetically authentic. Her journey exemplifies that, and is never too late to pivot, find your voice and make a meaningful impact to the world. Well, that is a great introduction. But more importantly, is what she wrote inside the book. And for all of my listeners, I want you to truly listen to this. Because she does have something meaningful to tell us about getting quiet, or get quiet. But getting quiet is the process. So in your journey towards self discovery, to silence through a place of silence is a place that many people would like to get. But almost feel like sometimes there's a fear to go there. Can you share the moment or experience that inspired you to explore and eventually write about this concept, which has helped you in so many ways, personally and professionally?
Elaine Glass
Well, thank you for that beautiful introduction. And yeah, my life had gotten so loud. And my life had become so fearful. I was a single mom, making very important decisions, and feeling really alone. And the world outside had gotten so noisy, and I felt so bombarded that I was craving to hear my soul's voice, my inner wisdom, the comfort that I just knew it was going to bring me and so that's what led me on a journey to finding that stillness. And that still why's voice inside of me. Now, we all have it and we're born with it, but we lose it as life gets loud and busy and chaotic. What I know for sure, Greg, is that the people that have come to me with either struggles, physical, mental, emotional ailments, all have one thing in common and that is life has gotten too loud. and they cannot hear their souls calling.
Greg Voisen
Why do you believe it is the enticement, it's almost like, God played a joke on us when we were born. Because as we aged, we started heading toward what we think is exciting, which is oftentimes the noise. You know, in many spiritual traditions from the Eastern philosophy, we call it the Maya, right? The Maya is the noise. It's all the stuff that distracts us from being who we are. But it's so hard for us to get out of the mire. And so my question for you is, why do you believe that as souls on this planet, really embodying this, or wanting silence, we move in the opposite direction.
Elaine Glass
You're right, we are souls first having a human experience. And that, to me, is what we have completely disconnected from is knowing this. And so we're more tuned into what the body and the mind have to offer us. And, and look, we live in a great, you know, World of pleasure and entertainment, and ideas and wonderful human beings to connect to. And that's all wonderful and great, because we are here to have a beautiful human experience. The problem is, is we are stuck in the mind and in the body. And solely living from that place. Instead of remembering that we are truly souls here, in order to know why we're here. And what we're meant to do in this lifetime. We need to connect to that souls voice that we have completely disconnected from, and you can only connect to that souls knowing in quiet. And yes, it can be scary. And it can mean that you have to face some very difficult realizations. You know, I believe that we are mainly addicted to one thing, and that is looking away at the truth of our lives. But what if we could have a way so that it's not so scary, so that it is simple, so that we can transform in ways we can't even imagine. And that's what they get quiet way helps you do?
Greg Voisen
Well, you know, it's almost like a little bit like Pavlov's dog, you know, when a bell rings, they go, rah, rah, rah, let's go get that, you know, because we do get distracted so frequently from that. And it's not just meditation to get quiet, although meditation is one key areas that we've all talked about for years. But you outline in the book, the seven simple steps to help readers discover truth self. And what I'd like you to do if he could just briefly describe the steps and entail, how you came to identify them as this kind of crucial way to get to get quiet. Because you know, you use a labyrinth, as your I'm going to call it analogy. But in essence, if anybody out there has walked the labyrinth, I think it's not the first time walking elaborate. It's really, how many times can you walk that and explore something new and something different?
Elaine Glass
That's right, my metaphor is about walking a seventh circuit labyrinth that I found, just by chance, one day, I went to a retreat center when I was desperate as a single mom living paycheck to paycheck to try to find the soul's voice to guide me when my life had gotten so loud. And so just finding this ancient tool that helped me so much connect to my soul was transformational. So the first path is all about nurturing your body. No more, no more beating your body up. The very first thing that people usually will do when they're ready to change when they're ready to transform their lives, you will notice that they all of a sudden buy a new pair of tennis shoes, they sign up for their first yoga class. There's something within us that needs to shake our bodies awake, to be able to tune in to that soul's voice and it starts in a very physical way. So this is about connecting and nurturing our bodies and tuning into that lifeforce. Because so much of us are feeling like zombies these days.
Greg Voisen
Well, 10 years ago, you created this the get quiet way. If you would kind of you birthday yourself, explain how it works?
Elaine Glass
Well, it's all about shifting your energy, when you walk a labyrinth, or if you just read the book get quiet because it's laid out in the same path as you would if you were physically walking, you enter. What I sense is a portal of magic, you enter a place where you can heal. And so the good quiet way is about entering a different dimension. So that you can heal so that you can rediscover who you are. And so it was birthed by me needing to heal, and me to come back and rediscover who I really was. Because I had lost myself, being a single mother and all the things I was carrying heavy on me, I needed to release everything I was carrying. And each path helps you release what you have been carrying for many, many years. And that's why we start with the body because we've got to begin to release the heaviness that we feel in our bodies. And that can look like healing diseases that could feel like you know, you're cleaning and clearing out your, what you're eating. I mean, there's so many, you're finally addressing the bumps and bruises and things that haven't looked normal on your body before. It's no more looking away. At our bodies, it's addressing the health of our bodies. And this is where you start.
Greg Voisen
Well, that is what you call the first step. But I'd like to know in the listeners probably would like to know, this first time you entered the labyrinth, you were in a different frame of mind, let's say you found it, as you said at this retreat, what happened to you, and what were some of the emotions and feelings that you were able to in the short period of time it can take to walk a labyrinth, I'm able to get in touch with and my might say transmute, a lot of people have feelings of lack of self worth. That's a that's a true one that's there. They don't feel like they're worthy. And I think sometimes true, it doesn't matter if it's a man or a woman. That's a real one for everybody.
Elaine Glass
The minute I found the labyrinth, the minute I started walking, and this can happen in a labyrinth or just outside in nature where it's finally quiet. I literally heard my soul's voice, within 10 minutes of being in a quiet area, I was able to hear the words surrender. So clearly as if someone was walking right next to me saying those words. So the that is the immediate thing that happened to me, when I finally got quiet enough to hear my soul's voice, not the clatter and chatter the outside world. But this was truly me. This was me reporting to every cell in my body, what it needed to hear. And so I took from that moment, that wise counsel and I took it throughout my whole entire life. And my emotions, and my feelings around the word surrender triggered a lot. Because what how can I surrender, I mean, my life would fall apart if it did. But I've stayed. So one
Greg Voisen
of the things pardon me for interrupting. But I remember this from the book, you state that the path of movement, getting the tennis shoes, moving the body, walking in the labyrinth is associated with the end energy point located in our abdomen. And you then went on to say it's important for us to work with our digestive systems to find out what is eating at us. And I think that's an interesting one because many people don't give it a thought But truly, you know, digestive system may be disorders are clear look at what's going on inside of ourselves emotionally about what is eating us. Yeah,
Elaine Glass
absolutely. I mean, the emotional eating that we do, the bloating that takes over our bodies and we look away we look away at what we are consuming. And then how do we digest that? And so you're exactly right. When you say that we've got a look at that our abdominal region. That region tells us so much about the health of our bodies, and what we're putting in and digesting will either be easily digested, or literally, our bodies will repel by bloating by pain, by cramping by so many symptoms and signs that this area is out of balance.
Greg Voisen
Yeah, and and I found it interesting because you talk about path two and path three, which is the path to the heart. Now we, you know, we're talking about something that's abdomen at this point. And actually, in Eastern philosophies, if you look at the chakras and the way they move from the head, down to the throat, down to the heart, down to the abdomen, down to your general areas, you know, it's there's quite a bit of similarity in the eastern philosophy that way. But you're saying that the path to the heart, so what ways would you suggest to the listeners to kind of get more in touch because meditation is great for breathing, yoga is great for breathing. It's also great for opening up the chest area in the heart. What is it that you would advocate while these people are walking this labyrinth, in this part of the path to actually get in touch with that?
Elaine Glass
This path is about like you said, the heart. And the only way to get in touch with the heart and break down the walls that we have built up through grief and loss and disappointment is through clearing out our environment, clearing out our homes, clearing out the heaviness of clutter, clearing out old storage units that are off site that we've thrown away the key, but we keep paying every month. This is all dense, stuck energy. And when we clean and clear out our environments, so that we can breathe easily, that it's not so confining and constricting. This is the path where we open up the heart so that we can begin to receive those messages that hit our hearts, not our minds, but our hearts. So this is all about releasing What's weighing us heavy, heavy down in, in our environments?
Greg Voisen
Well, one of the things that you talk about is this discovery of you say it in the subtitle, the path of truth, the truth of who we are the truth. I want to focus in on the word truth. How do you define it? And in the context of self discovery? Why is it so vitally important, because I think that when people say truth, and then self, there's a bit of confusion, and I'm just gonna say this from even a personal standpoint, but even though 1100 interviews I've done with people on spirituality, I don't think that everybody easily connects those two words, right? And so it's really important, I think, for the listeners to know that you've written a book that you're trying to help people really understand that, how would you help better them understand their truth?
Elaine Glass
When our minds are cluttered, when our environments are cluttered, when our bodies aren't healthy, we can't access the truth of who we are, because we're a completely different person. If you're unwell, if your environment is unwell, how are you going to get to know the truth of who you are? I've seen people on medications, who that medication actually changes their personality. How can you know the truth of who you are, when you're on a medication that changes who you are. So there are so many things blocking us so many roadblocks, from feeling our best to know the truth of who we are. That that's how I'm defining the truth. There's too many things in the way to actually know and be able to think right about the truth of our lives. It's the people that we have in our lives that might be toxic, the relationships that are causing a stress, how can you know the truth of who you are and make decisions that are right for you? When you have the heaviness of stress every day?
Greg Voisen
How do you get enough emotional stamina to face those and or face the people that might be causing that in your life? I think for many of the listeners, that that's an important one, you had to do it with your husband. You went through a divorce, you raise two kids on your own, and it frequently takes a lot of courage. And what they need to know is that the fear of doing it is less than what it's costing them now to actually hang on to it.
Elaine Glass
That's right. I mean, our health is our wealth. If you are in a relationship that's not honoring you, that's not respecting you. A lot of times you're not honoring and respecting yourself, because you're going to attract the people that how you feel. And so yes, we have to do difficult things, we have to make courageous acts we have to change. But this path of getting quiet is about being able to move things, move the energy in your body, in your environment, and in your mind, so that you can change if nothing moves, nothing can change.
Greg Voisen
Right? Well, we're we're coming to a topic which people have talked about for a long time, which is self love and compassion. And you embrace this compassion toward oneself, and others. Now, there are certain times in our life when wanting to make amends of a bad situation is really challenging, we have a hard time crossing over that line to say, I'm sorry, or to have someone else hopefully say they're sorry. And I think that creates a big divide in so many people's lives. What would you tell people today that are listening that are saying, hey, I need to be more compassionate with myself, I need to be more empathetic. I need to understand the other person's point of view. How does this step affect one's journey toward really what you call self discovery? And why is it so crucial?
Elaine Glass
Again, that heaviness that we carry around with us, because of the people who haven't said they're sorry, the heaviness that we carry around with us, because we've decided not to take responsibility for what we've caused in our own life. This is what blocks us from that feeling of compassion and self love. When we take ownership of our own lives and begin to lead ourselves in this way, we have so much more self love, we have so much more self compassion. And when we have it for ourselves, we can give it to others.
Greg Voisen
What is it that you would have listeners do, and you know, let's say exercises that they could do is call them exercises, because usually it is an exercise for them to particularly find this power and gain insight into one's true self. I mean, look, we can go from journaling, to Tai Chi, to yoga, to meditation to everything in between, do you have anything in particular, that you would highly recommend to help us meaning those who are listening through the process of discovering oneself.
Elaine Glass
It's all of those things you just mentioned, I journal every day, I meditate every day, I walk every day. And the main thing is connecting back to nature. When we as nature itself, connect outside ourselves with nature, we feel whole again, we feel like we belong again, instead of being isolated or alone. And this practice alone helps people not feel alone and scary and scared when they do get quiet. This is about reconnecting with our natural state, which is nature itself. And so getting quiet, walking a labyrinth, getting out in nature. This all allows you to hear and really listen what matters in your life. Because right now, it's way too loud. It's way too noisy in all of our lives. And we're way too, way too distracted. How do we come back to ourselves? What if we can hear exactly what we need? That will guide our lives in the right direction. This is what that will do. It will guide you so that you can hear your soul's calling. It's so simple. get quiet. And listen. That is the message.
Greg Voisen
Yeah, and it's such a simple one, but yet a challenging one for people and that comes down to this visualizations. You know, the stories we tell ourselves. I ended up getting a psychology degree, a master's in spiritual psychology. We used to say that we live in the world of MSU making stuff up and we frequently do make things up we make up stories that we tell ourselves about how we're not good we're not worthy. We're you know were inexperienced and whatever it might be, how do you suggest rewriting those stories and reframing the stories, so that we can feel, I should say, so that we can get to the truth of who we are.
Elaine Glass
You're right, we make up so many stories, and that, the minute that we hear a story that upsets us, our whole nervous system just goes haywire. And then that story is on repeat. So the very first thing we have to do is actually acknowledge, wait a minute, I think that's a story I'm making up, I don't know that that's true. Get out a pen and paper and write down as if you're a court reporter. Just writing down the simple facts of your story, without the emotion of it all. That is the key, let's take the emotion out of your story. And in that moment, you will find that you're not so triggered, that just stating the facts of any story will help you see from like, 1000 feet up looking down, that is not as big as you think it is. And this alone can change your mindset. And in one of the pads, it's all about cleaning, and clearing out your mind, and getting really, really present, present to everything you do every day. And that includes these stories that we tell ourselves that are mainly a lot of times untrue.
Greg Voisen
Yeah, and, and with that, you know, we we've got to move beyond the story. And one of your paths of these seven has is you talk about the feet, you know, you state they're they're just two paths from the center. What are some ways for us to shift our energy toward the feet, you just said, Hey, you walk every day. So you're out walking. Now, that doesn't mean you're walking on a labyrinth, but you are walking, and you say, getting into nature, which is walking in nature, because that's about the only way you well, there's other ways you can get in. But the reality is, it usually is walking, what is the big point of getting in touch with the feet as a result of this to move the energy associated with a blockage in the body somewhere as a result of moving those feet.
Elaine Glass
The energy of just knowing that you're moving your life forward, when you're walking forward. So that's the image that you're moving your life forward. But more importantly, in the feet region, we're grounding. We're grounding ourselves to a state of being that we may never have felt before we feel focused and grounded. And what I found in this particular energy area, was that we not only ground to the earth, but we also ground to the heavens, because we are very human, and also very divine. And so this grounding is upward and downward. And when you can visualize that, just that image alone, in a quiet place, you will feel more love from the universe than you have ever felt before. So I feel like we've gotten grounding all wrong. I think it's not just down, but it's also upward.
Greg Voisen
Oh, yeah, most definitely. Because it's bringing the energy in many times is the Eastern philosophies through meditation in your crown chakra all the way down, you call it you actually say to the tailbone, and the legs, but in essence is is because you're clearing the energies where the vibrational element of what's now been in there is harmful and you're trying to make it harmonious so that it vibrates at a different level. Because really, this is all about vibration. We you and I sitting here in this and connecting via zoom. It's a vibrational level that's happening across the pathways in the airways. And in essence, if we could do it, which I think some Masters of Wisdom have been able to do, you could walk on water, right? But at this particular point, I think not to keep it within the realm of this book. You're saying just getting quiet itself is going to bring that peace and new vibrational energy Correct.
Elaine Glass
100% This is all about shifting your energy. And then once it shifted, seeing where you land at that point, and after you've shifted the energy centers that I have developed in the body, your next step is to get inspired by what you're Feeling is you're going to feel healthier, you're going to feel brighter, you're going to feel more alert, you're going to feel more awake, because you will have made choices that are healthier for you. I've seen people, you know, fix their marriages, stop drinking, you know, getting right with their with their kids. This is the point where you've shifted so much, that now you're inspired to actually live out what your soul is telling you to do in this lifetime. That's when you get healthy.
Greg Voisen
Right? Well, the soul is calling and listening to your intuition and actually having discernment and following that is a big area actually following it. And I think it is because Go ahead.
Elaine Glass
There's, there's a lot of scary things you will hear. I remember, after a couple of years of walking the labyrinth, I mean, I was hearing things that I thought was crazy talk, Greg, I didn't know if I could trust what I was hearing. Because it's really your soul's voice and God's saying, This is what you were meant to do. I was a single mom, who was I, who was I was just trying to get through everyday life who was I to be a healer, who was I to write a book, who was I to become a master life coach who was I, I didn't feel good enough, I didn't feel smart enough. I didn't feel like I deserved it. But I listened to what I heard, every time I went to the labyrinth. And I trusted it and I had faith in it. And I wanted to go give up so many times reading this book. And I didn't, I didn't and every time I didn't and every time I pushed through, and I got quiet and listen to even more, I would say synchronicities, that would tell me you are on the right path. And that's what helped me get to where I am. I trusted it. I trusted what I heard. And that's what I want for everybody. That's what the quiet will do is it will guide you and comfort you in ways that we all desperately, desperately are needing right now.
Greg Voisen
Well, for all of us listeners who've made it this far in the podcast, taking a deep breath and close your eyes. And breathe out. And actually, when you do that, visualize in your mind's eye, what you really see and want for yourself. And this is a great way for us all to get connected. And it's just that one simple breath. I mean, I only did one. Imagine if you did that for 1015 30 minutes, what might happen. So the reality is you just need to stop, breathe, pay attention, be aware, and draw into the soul. Now you're mentioned your mission with this book is to get people to feel totally connected with their soul, as you've said several times during the podcast, and to feel the energy exchange with the heavens. One of those ways you can do that is obviously through meditation, contemplation, going into nature, doing all kinds of things. But there are other ways to get there. I know many people want to do it, but through microdosing drugs. I'm not saying you can or can't do any of those I can tell you, if that's what you want to experience and go do Ayahuasca go do it. But the point is, is that you're all seeking this connection with the soul because that's at the greatest level. So what advice would you provide our listeners in the practices that would allow them to maintain this freedom of the soul? And I think the key word there, a lane is maintain. It's one thing to make a connection. It's another thing to stay connected. And to realize that that's what you want to do, and to remind yourself when you get off path, that that's where you feel the most freedom and the most connection. What would you advice would you give people for, I'm gonna say maintaining that
Elaine Glass
it's staying awake to your life and not falling asleep at the wheel. It's waking up every morning and setting an intention. And knowing these paths and knowing these energy points, that the intention of the day will be that I will stay on the path that I will stay focused, that I will stay awake and aware to my life that I won't get bound up in routine that I won't go on autopilot. This is about staying awake to our lives. This is about consciousness and waking up. And this is really that simple. Pull and also that hard in a very loud and noisy world. So it just takes one conscious effort, one conscious thought, one breath, to know that I need to stay on the right path that I suffer if I go off of those paths. And I don't want to suffer anymore, and I want to live the second half of my life, much different than I live the first half, I want to live the second half of my life, living out my soul's purpose. And that's the intention every day.
Greg Voisen
You know, it's an interesting how you and I connected. And again, for all my listeners, the book is get quiet. Okay. And you see laying glass, definitely we'll put a link to her website and a link to Amazon. And I was going to tell Elena story. Many, many years ago, my son got chronic myelogenous leukemia. And as a result of that experience, he and I teamed up we started doing a workshop called Nevermind the noise, thriving in a world of ever increasing complexity. And it always amazed me that we would go do these workshops for logistical organizations like FedEx, and UPS and all these people that delivered things that were always crunched for time. And we put our workshop out with that title. Never mind the noise thriving in a world and 1000s of these people came to these events, these are logistic events. And ours was the first to always get booked up. And all these men, and it was men literally walked away, and they'd never meditated before. And we took them through their first meditation in their life. And they literally, were running around the facility, telling everybody, you got to go to that workshop called Never mind the noise, thriving in a world of ever increasing complexity. These guys really they take us through a meditation I've never done and I thought it was a greatest thing. Because it really That's a true story. In a way how you can touch people at a soul level, when they actually quiet down and really take a look at things. So
Elaine Glass
I really appreciate that story. And I'm buying, I assume that your son is well now. And I find, I find that what we're missing. And what those men probably felt was that we're missing ourselves in that moment, and those breaths in those meditations, we come back to ourselves. Because we wonder what we're missing in our lives. We're missing ourselves.
Greg Voisen
Very well put in with that. I will say Namaste to you. Thank you for your time. Thank you for being on inside personal growth, sharing your wisdom around, get quiet. And I'm gonna say getting quiet because it's a process and the seven steps to getting there. I appreciate you being on and sharing with my listeners, go out and get the book. We'll put a link to liens website as well. Thank you. Thank you for being on and you've been wonderful. I really appreciate it.
Elaine Glass
Thank you so much, Greg. Appreciate you.
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Inside Personal Growth with Greg Voisen · Podcast 1103: The Ownership Mindset with Kerry SigginsFrom one podcaster to another, joining us this episode is Kerry Siggins featuring her book The Ownership Mindset: A Handbook for Transforming Your Life and Leadership.
Kerry is an expert speaker and writer on transformational leadership, culture creation and employee ownership. She has the unique ability to inspire others by sharing her journey and thought leadership which one of her ways is through her podcast show Reflect Forward: Conversations on Leadership with Kerry Siggins.
Kerry also is the CEO of StoneAge – the leading global high-pressure industrial cleaning equipment manufacturer. And under her leadership, StoneAge transformed into a powerhouse in the industrial cleaning industry and has transitioned to become 100% employee-owned and even won numerous awards making Kerry a finalist for Colorado’s CEO of the Year.
Kelly is the mind behind of “Ownership Mindset” – a blueprint for empowering yourself, others, and your company to reach your full potential. As the culture creator of “Own It”, she also shares this through her inspiring book The Ownership Mindset: A Handbook for Transforming Your Life and Leadership. Packed with practical advice, compelling research, and unforgettable stories for everyone from a first-time manager to a seasoned CEO, the book is a must-read blueprint for empowering yourself and others to reach your full potential.
You may learn more about Kerry Siggins and her works by visiting her website.
Thanks and happy listening!
You may also refer to the transcripts below for the full transciption (not edited) of the interview.
Interview Transcipt -Not EditedEmailDownloadNew TabGreg Voisen
Well, welcome back to Inside Personal Growth. This is Greg Voisen, I'm the host of Inside Personal Growth. And joining me from Colorado, you're actually in Durango, is that right?
Kerry Siggins
I am.
Greg Voisen
Durango, Colorado. And here's the book, The Ownership Mindset, Kerry Siggins. And I hope I'm saying that right?
Kerry Siggins
Nope, Siggins. Yep, Siggins.
Greg Voisen
And the book is called The Ownership Mindset: A handbook for Transforming Your Life and Leadership. Interesting story that Kerry has, and how she got where she is with a company called StoneAge. But we're gonna get into that. More importantly, if you want to learn more about Kerry, just go to kerrysiggins.com. And there you can learn about her book, her podcast because she does her own podcast as well. And everything else that you need to know about her but I'm gonna let the listening audience know a tad bit about you. Because I always think it's important for people to have a good idea. She's the CEO of Stone Age, which I said leading manufacturer of industrial cleaning equipment and one of outside Magazine's Top 100 Companies to Work For in 2001. She was honored by the industry era magazine is one of the top 10 Most Influential CEOs. And in 2017, she was a finalist for Colorado CEO of the Year, she sits on the board of several companies and as a member of the YPO. She is regularly invited to deliver keynote speeches on several businesses and leadership topics, including how to create employee centric cultures and which it's safe to speak up and show up as your whole self. She's an active blogger and contributor for Forbes entrepreneur, authority magazine, BAC magazine and hosts several podcasts, including our popular one called reflect forward, go there, pick up a copy of this book, everybody will have a link to that. Well, let's just kind of start it off. Because in the jacket of your book, and in the book, you tell the story a bit about your backstory. Now I told the people the good part. There are parts that aren't so good, and why you've succeeded as becoming a leader, despite the personal challenges that you've faced in your life prior to the good stuff that I just told people. Because you did have a little bit I will call it a dark past. But you
Kerry Siggins
Oh yeah. That's a that's a good way to describe it exactly.
Greg Voisen
So tell people what you learned from that?
Kerry Siggins
Yeah, So I developed substance abuse issues in my 20s. And we won't go into a therapy session here. I've done lots of work to understand those reasons. But it was a very dark point in my life. And I was I was quite frankly lost. And I was using substances to cope to numb and it got out of hand and I accidentally overdosed on Labor Day of 2006. And it's the most important day of my life. People ask me what I ever changed that day. And I would say absolutely not, even though it was hitting rock bottom, and it was a horrible place to be, and I hurt myself and I hurt a lot of other people. In that time in my life. It was an inflection point, it was the point that I said, that’s it, I need to figure out how to live the life that I have the potential for. And so that was when I pivoted everything and decided to come home to Colorado back to my roots and figure out how to rebuild my life. So, it was a really dark point in my life, but also one that I have no regrets. But it's taken me a long time to be able to say that.
Greg Voisen
Well, it's a big turning point for most people when they go through what you've gone through. And, you know, everybody learns from different examples in their life, whether it's a loss, whether it's a financial loss, whether it's drug or alcohol, whether it's sex abuse, you know, it comes in many different forms and styles and fashions and all kinds of things. And the key is, is that we grow through it instead of go through it, right? People say, well, why did somebody have a relapse? Well, they had a relapse because they didn't really grow through it. They just went through it and so they relapse back to taking alcohol or drugs or doing whatever. And in your case, I'm proud to say you haven't relapsed. So that's an important thing. Now you state in the introduction or your book that exceptional leaders which you have become, understand the true ownership and this book is about ownership of fully owning everything that happens to them and their life just like you were just talking about, and that that this means one's understanding They're responsible for their attitudes, their actions, the reactions, the teamwork, the communications relationships. At what point in your life did you realize that taking 100% responsibility for your actions was paramount to your success was that the day you overdosed? Now,
Kerry Siggins
I think it was after, I've had an interesting relationship with accountability throughout my life, my mother, like just really hammered accountability home, and in many instances in life made me be accountable to a lot of different things, I tell a story in the book of how she made me go talk to a teacher that I was misbehaving in class with, and handle my own problem. And it was so empowering. But I think like a lot of people in their 20s, and especially back then I think it's easy to get into the blame game. And I had a tumultuous relationship with my father and, and so I acted out in certain ways. And I blamed him. And I blamed a lot of other things for my circumstances. So, you know, I don't want to say that I wasn't always accountable, because I certainly had moments. But I had lots of moments when I wasn't either. But the pivot point came after my overdose. I knew that at that point, I needed to change because I couldn't go to work for three days. So I was a high functioning addict. I always went to work. I very driven ambitious. So success was always something that was important to me. And a lot of people with my personality style, developed substance abuse issues, it's not an uncommon thing. I didn't know that back then. But, but I couldn't go to work for three days after my overdose. And that was rock bottom. For me, it wasn't almost dying, it was the fact that I couldn't go to work. And when I called my mother to ask if I could come home, which was humiliating for me, she said something really interesting to me, she said, you have all of this potential, and you are such a fantastic leader. And you can lead people to great things, or you can lead people right off of a cliff. But if you are ever going to be a leader who is worth following, then you have to learn how to lead yourself first. And that was the first time I had ever been introduced to this concept of self leadership. And I was like, well done. I mean, we're leading ourselves every day, whether we're doing it well or not. And so it was at that point that I started to really explore this idea of self-leadership and, and personal responsibility, and how do I get myself out of this mess? So, you know, I think that it developed over time. I do think that, you know, what caused me to really take the deep look was the overdose. But it wasn't in that moment. I think it was in that, you know, that three to six months afterwards, as I was figuring out, who am I and who do I want to be going forward and what I realized is that I'm the only one who can fix the mess that I've made in my life. So, I better start owning it.
Greg Voisen
Well, and I think this point we're talking about for all of my listeners, and they and most of you probably know this, you know, the first key things as a fundamental foundation is taking responsibility for your own actions. And that's what your mother was trying to drive home. And, you know, you mentioned in this book, you are influenced by Dr. Seuss. And it's interesting because I live in Encinitas and Dr. Seuss lived in Loyola. And as a kid, you were influenced by the book, Oh, the Places will go. And I then actually went out and after I read this and picked the I actually went to Amazon and looked at some of the pages of that book. Why do you believe the book became an analogy, kind of for your life calling? Because it was all about the places we'll go. Not the places we've been.
Kerry Siggins
You know, I love this question for two reasons. One, because I grew up in rural Colorado and a small ranching community. And I spent my whole life trying to figure out how to get out of that town. I never wanted to go back. In fact, I was said I was never coming back to a small rural community. And here I am in Durango. I didn't grow up in Durango. I grew up in a small town called Montrose, which is about two hours north of Durango. But I spent my whole life imagining all the places that I would go. And so that book really resonated with me because I had big dreams for myself. But I didn't understand the true at least the medium the book that I should say the book didn't have the same meaning to me as it did. When I was a kid that did after my overdose, and my mom had it. It was a book that I had growing up and when I got home to move back in with her after my overdose, I read it. And it was really inspiring to me like I can, I can choose these things I can choose to be in these dark places. I can choose to blame other people, or I can choose to focus on where I'm going in and living my dreams and making things happen. And so it brought back that That desire I had as a as a young girl with big dreams and and made me realize like I can still live those dreams even though I've made a mess of my life.
Greg Voisen
Well, you realize you have agency, right? Exactly. And I think that's the most important thing. And people realize that they do have that choice, that element of choice and agency, you go right, you go left, you make some decisions, some are going to be right, some are going to be wrong. And even if they were wrong, those are the ones that you learned from like us. The overdose that was went down the wrong path. But you turned around and you got out. Now let's fast forward here. And let's talk about your landing the position at Stone Age as the General Manager, it was like, Wow, what an epiphany, that email was that you didn't get that you realized you should have gotten? And you can tell that if you want. Yeah. And you felt working with John and Jerry's ink, was really kind of an honor. What was it about Stone Age in particular, that you knew was different, and it would have become an exceptional place for you to work? Because you almost didn't get the job based on the fact that you didn't read the emails, you were in a job somewhere else. Exactly,
Kerry Siggins
exactly. So. So part of my part of my spiral down, it was because I was so miserable at work. I was climbing this corporate ladder, but I was not in the right company. It wasn't the right culture. I didn't like my boss. And it just fed into my ongoing issues that I had with self esteem and body image and all of those things. So after my overdose, I said, That's it, I'm going to make sure that I find a company that fits me and that I'm in a role that aligns with my skills and my talents. Just because I can do things doesn't mean that it brings me joy, for example, I went to engineering school, I have no desire to be an engineer. It does not bring me joy, even though I can do the work. And so when I met with the founders at Stone Age, I could just tell that there was something different. I mean, we were employee owned that and it was not an ESOP at the time, but I could just tell that they really cared about their employees. Everything that we talked about was kind of through this lens of work life balance, and And what about what else are you interested in? It wasn't just about my experience, which quite frankly, I hardly had a knee so. So it, it was a really interesting interview, nothing like I had ever been through before. And, and then I met with the management team. And after I met with the management team, I knew that they wanted to hire me, I think that my inexperience was somehow less intimidating than a person who was going to come in and change everything. And so I was keeping my fingers crossed, and I was waiting and waiting. And I didn't hear anything. And I didn't hear anything. And finally, my mom said, Well, why don't you just call and find out? What's going on? Well, I was too, too afraid to call. So I sent the HR manager at email, and I said, Hey, I'm getting ready to take another job I had had another offer. Can you tell me, you know, Am I still on the running? What's going on? And she said, Well, we've been waiting to hear back from you. We you didn't have a reply to John's email. I was like, Wait, why email? I don't think I got an email. When did he send it? So I crickets for a little bit. And then about an hour later, she calls me and she says, yeah, he actually didn't send it to you. He sent it to me, I just assumed he sent it to you. So we actually never sent it. So we want you to come in. And we'll talk about we want to make an offer for you. So come in and talk about it. And I was blown up like oh my god, what happens if I would not have called and thank goodness you my mother. She is just everything like pushy me, like just pick up the phone and call them. And and so if I wouldn't have, they would have thought I was some flake and wasn't interested in the job. And I would have always wondered, what would have been. And so they did. They called me and they they they ultimately offered the job. But this place is all about creating a great employee experience, so that our customers have a great experience and a great overall experience. And that was what was different about it. And I knew that even though the job was a stretch for me that I was in a place that was going to suit my personality, my style and the things that I cared about.
Greg Voisen
Now you're the CEO, that sounds pretty amazing story. Let me tell you. So if you would speak to the listeners about what you term self leadership, how do you define it and why is it so important to the success of the individual person in the company because it's again, that goes back to this taking 100% responsibility for your own actions right to a large degree, and I don't think we can repeat that enough. You don't try and brush it under the rug. You Come out and you have to be transparent about things, you have to tell the truth. Guy and I were talking about that on the think remarkable podcast is that and I'll relay this story, there was that that think differently ad that Apple was running, right. And then had the picture of Einstein. And there was this video that was taken, this is a really interesting story. And for all my listeners listen to the podcast that I did with guy. And the reason I tell this story is there were two videos being made. And Steve Jobs was in the room with guy. And he said, Oh, don't give one don't give one of the videos to Steve, or don't give one of the videos to guy. He said. And guy said, How come to Steve. And Steve said, because I don't trust you. And guy turned around to Steve. And he said it cost him 10s of millions of dollars. He told Steve Jobs, I don't trust you. Because he stood up for his basically kind of his rights said maybe not the right thing to say at that time. But he said in hindsight, it was the right thing to say. And that's where I'm coming with with self responsibility, self leadership, is it sometimes the hard decisions aren't the easiest to make, but you've got to make them. So what would you say to people about that? Yeah.
Kerry Siggins
There's nothing easy about leading yourself well, and self leadership is simply about it's how you lead yourself. And it's so it's how you show up. It's how you use your words to communicate, it's how you look at your efforts. It's how you take responsibility for your actions or not. And so you're leading yourself well, or you're not to. And so for me, being a great self leader, is how I was able to change my life, because that's when you when the personal responsibility comes in to say, Okay, I'm going to take responsibility of leading myself well, that no matter what's thrown at me, I can handle it, that if I have to give someone feedback, I'm going to do it in a way that's kind and caring and helpful. But it's going to be honest, that I'm going to receive feedback, because I know that I am far from perfect, and that I need feedback to be able to grow. So it's this idea of, of owning everything that happens in your life, and leading yourself. Well, I imagine you're the very best leader that you've ever worked for, how do you start to emulate some of those things? That's how you can imagine what kind of person do you want to be 10 years from now, you have to start practicing those things. Right now. That is what self leadership is. And I think a lot of times we just go through life not thinking about it, we just go through the motions, not understanding that we're not really developing ourselves as self leaders, if we aren't consciously focused on on these things on taking responsibility on communicating well, on owning your mistakes on taking care of yourself.
Greg Voisen
Those are good attributes, you know, in other words, when you point out attributes of self leadership that should be around transparency and vulnerability factor, your ability to take on hard things and work through them. You know, and I know people can they listen to these words, and they go well, but that's what it is. But there are times sometimes when you choose to break, and you don't go the right way. And you those are the times that you make your basic, biggest mistakes, because you have to listen to your intuition. You have to listen to that, inside that soul that's talking to you. And you know, you cited a quote, and this is moving now to this whole concept of an ESOP, employee stock ownership and from Philip Kotler is a professor at Kellogg School of Management, about worker discontent. And that this statement is the reason that you're such an advocate of employee ownership plans or Aesop's ESOP. What is it like to manage a successful ESOP, like the one that you've put in at Stone Age, because I know there's a big story before the story. But the reality is, for all my listeners, this program is owned by the employees, this company is owned by the employees. And it's a big decision for an owner to take. Simply because they have to be of a different mindset to want to do that. It's almost like they're altruistic in nature, right? They're going to take that down the road. Tell us a little bit about the story. And why this whole thing about discontent of employees kind of drove this initiative.
Kerry Siggins
Yeah, absolutely. Well, we have such a huge wealth gap in the United States. I mean, really around the world but the United States is so so dramatic and and there's always going to be discontent when a top few continue to build tremendous wealth off the backs of the people who are are doing the work. And we've seen this we've seen executive pay, get completely out of line with with the average worker, and that is going to cause discontent. Because in reality, it takes every single person on the team to build value in the company. And my opinion, a title, it's just a bunch of letters behind your name, like CEO is just letters behind my name, I am a human being who has a role to play in this company. And my job is to play that role well, and it's a very important job, but it is somehow not worth, you know, 10s of millions of dollars more than an engineer here designing a product or an order fulfillment person making sure that our customer gets a product on time. And so this worker discontent is really happening where people just feel like a number. And they feel like they are working really hard, and not getting ahead. But making the owners of the company, whether that's a publicly traded company on the stock market, which almost 90% of the stocks in the United States are owned by 10% of the population, the US population, or private equity, or, you know, family business or something along those lines. And so, this idea of worker discontent is a really important, it's a really important conversation that we need to have, because it is the root of a lot of our issues in this country. And so, but that was not the reason why the ESOP started to begin with John and Jerry, our founders, they just believed in sharing the success of the company, with the employees, they were two engineers with no business experience. And they relied heavily on the expertise and the hard effort of those early employees. And they said, We want to be able to, to allow you to share in the success. And so that's, that's really what it started, you know, you talked a little bit about altruistic, we're really trying to change the narrative on it being in altruistic decision. A lot of people believe that when you sell a company to an ESOP, that you're going to get less money, you know, less value than what you would on an open market, which in the moment is true, we do a fair market valuation, which is usually less than what you would go out and sell to private equity, or to a strategic buyer. But there's all kinds of mechanisms that you can put into place to be able to get that value out of the company. And so to me, we need to get rid of it as this altruistic feeling this altruistic view, and really be about why does all of the wealth have to be concentrated at the top? Why shouldn't we look at a different model where I can still get get my value out of the company that I've created, still build tremendous wealth, but really set the workers, the people who have built this company up for success to have a better future for themselves, their families, which makes our communities healthier. I don't believe that's altruistic, I believe that's the right thing to do. And so that's why we're really trying to get this message out that you can build a great company, you can create a tremendous amount of wealth, and your employees can to
Greg Voisen
know I would agree with you and altruistic, you're right is maybe not the right word. But there, it really depends on the mindset of the CEO. I mean, Aesop's can be driven for the wrong reasons, because a lot of times Aesop's are a tax advantage for the owners, because the government gives tax advantages. But if you truly at the heart of why you want to do it, which is to share in the wealth, that is the key of being able to share in the wealth. And I think that's important. And I think this comes down to also if you look at the two owners, Jerry and John, their personal purpose in life and your personal purpose in life, and in so doing to make an impact on the employees in the world, right. So what is your personal purpose? And how do you believe you're bringing that value to the world by running this company that makes these little jets that have 40,000 pounds of psi behind them? That could probably blow the paint and anything off of anything? Probably? Everything? Yeah.
Kerry Siggins
kill people. It can kill people. Sure,
Greg Voisen
sure. It can. It's dangerous. I've actually had my hand in front of just the ones where you do the erewash thing and I put it in in it like burns forever after you have something happen. So yours will probably take my fingers off.
Kerry Siggins
It can take your fingers off. Yes, definitely. Well, yeah. So I, I love I love this company. I love this industry. I never imagined myself in the industrial cleaning industry. But I will tell you that we take pride in keeping the supply chain running every major industrial manufacturing facility that produces everything that we use the gas in our car, the rubber in the tires, the glass in our phone, the plastic in our water bottles, all of that comes from an industrial manufacturing facility, that that production equipment has to be cleaned. So our products, which are used worldwide are the leaders and what we do help keep the supply chain running. And so from a, you know, from a perspective of the value that we're bringing to the world, I take an immense amount of pride in that. But that's not my purpose. My purpose is to inspire people to be their very best to see the potential that they have in themselves to be external, excellent, exceptional self leaders or people leaders, I want to help expand consciousness around this idea that businesses can be a force for good and should be a force for good. And we can make significant changes if we start opening our mind to not just about making money, but doing good in the world, too. And so Stone Age gives me this great platform, because we have this really unique product, or the leaders that will have what we do, we have this amazing story, because that's what we all do is connect through stories. And we're employee owns. And so it gives me a platform to be able to talk about impact and change through this through the lens of where wealth creation happens, and how we need to make wealth creation work for everybody, not just the few. So I love it. I mean, I'm an engineer, you know, by education, I'm a business leader, by you know, by passion. And by purpose, I am about really changing the world, and getting people to see the potential and the impact that we can make. If we make if we lead this way.
Greg Voisen
Well, and you have a unique product, now it looks like you're the dominant player in the market with that unique product, which is not everybody can say that. I mean, you know, if you make a widget, and it's great, but there's also 14 other widgets out there. It's one thing but in the fact that stone age is like the dominant player, they almost have like a monopoly in this market. That's that's another thing to say. Now, you mentioned that great leaders can articulate a vision. And I know we've heard this, and my listeners have heard this said on these business podcasts, and a path to achieve the vision more importantly, the path. What is the pathway? What is the plan, your first year as the CEO Stone Age was in 2009. And things were not sparkling sales were down the world was in a funk. The year prior, the stock market did its thing and crashed. And you were saying wow. So how do you pull the company through that crisis? Because this is the real strength of of a leader? Well, yeah,
Kerry Siggins
this was my first real crisis that I've ever lived through. And, you know, honestly, it, it's a combination of things part, it's because of the history of the company. And, and, and our focus on innovation and engineering. We were trusted by our customers long before I ever came on board. But I knew that and so when I had to look our all of our employees in the eye and say, Okay, we don't know what's going to happen. Our goal is to not lay anybody off, but we're all going to have to tighten our belts. And we're going to focus on what makes Stone Age great. And that is our products, we have to continue to invest in engineering, that's our core. That's how we make money. We need to expand outside of the United States, we had been selling internationally, but but it was probably about 35% of our business at that point, our goal is to get 50% of our business outside of the US. So we're going to invest in marketing, and we're gonna go open up dealers outside of our outside of the markets we're in right now. So that way that we can smooth out the effects. We don't know how long this procession is going to last. And then we're going to take care of each other. Even though we all have to tighten our belts, we are going to make sure that our customers don't feel a thing that we're here for them, and that we're here for each other. And we're going to do this together. And I think that really rallied the team. And and you know, I think some of it was some of it was luck. Some of it was was, you know, based on the history that we had had. And some of it was on just getting really, really focused on what made us good. And that is our products and knowing that we wanted to expand globally. And so how are we going to do that? And that's what got us out. And then in 2010 I think we grew like 35 or 40% that next year we exploded because of the investment that we made in product development and global expansion.
Greg Voisen
Well, you gotta focus.
Kerry Siggins
Yeah, laser focus,
Greg Voisen
you had to get laser focused, simply because of the times you were in. Yeah, how much of that care rate was your responsibility? Or did Jerry or John have any input on that? Or were you totally responsible for directing that vision?
Kerry Siggins
I would say I was probably 90%. Responsible. Jerry is Jerry is Oh, I was 100% rate the company at that point, like, I'm the CEO. So I felt like it was 100%. My responsibility. Jerry is a brilliant engineer, he's got Asperger's. And so he's been out of the management of the company, since before I was there, and so he's just like, let me design products, and I will help with that. And so that's where, you know, he was focused on so really, it was my conversations with John, the issue was that John had bought a boat. And he because he had this big dream of doing the loop around the, the East Coast, and then down the Mississippi River. And so he was on that trip, during all that, like, you know, during those like six months, and so he had a little satellite, this is 2009, we did, we literally had a satellite phone, like you need to hold the satellite up, and then be on the phone with me when he is out in the ocean. And we're talking through how to handle some of these things. And so and so, yeah, I, I, I needed him to help validate my ideas, because I said, I think that this is what's right. But I was still so green and relatively new to the industry. And so I wasn't afraid to say, Okay, here's my plan. Here's what we're going to do. You know, what do you think, John? What advice do you have for me, and I used him as a mentor. And so he did that from his boat, on a satellite phone, and we would bounce ideas off of what we should do. And and, you know, he was so supportive of the decisions that I was making. And he gave me great advice on how to handle certain things. And so I really, really appreciated his mentorship through that. But it was scary knowing that, you know, and he's like, Well, I can come home if I need to, I was like, I don't think What are you going to do here? I think it's good, I think I've got it. But all that did was just continue to solidify myself as the leader of the company, if he would have come back in and that hard time right after I was named CEO, and started taking over, you know, decision making. I don't, I don't think I would be the leader I am today. And I don't think that I would have earned the same amount of respect for my employees as I did when we got out of it. And and I was the face of leadership at that time. Well,
Greg Voisen
I think, look, we are no man or no woman is an island, and you have to have mentors. And you know, along the way, we look to certain people obviously had tons of experience in the industry, prior to you coming in. And I think mentorship is so important, it is a huge, huge, important. And along that line. There's this transparency and leadership, the role being transparent Brene Brown talks about vulnerability and transparency, and that this is the cornerstone of business. For all the people out there who are aspiring leaders or our leaders, what advice would you give them about listening and becoming more vulnerable and more transparent with their teams, and the other management people inside their company.
Kerry Siggins
So I believe that the best thing that you can do is tell people the truth, like that is my guiding point post, always do the right thing. Always tell the truth, be transparent. And that can be really uncomfortable. And I know I remember when I told my management team about my past substance abuse issues, and that I had almost died from from overdosing. And it wasn't until a couple years in. But we were doing a team building session. And it just felt like the right time and I was so nervous to to share that part of myself. Because I felt shame. I thought, why are they going to ever follow me? Why would I fire follow some drug addict, you know, CEO, that's the story I told myself. But I knew I was hiding a piece of me I wasn't being transparent about who I wasn't something that was really, really, really important in my life. And so when I told them, it created this unbelievable connection, and other people started to open up and be more vulnerable about the adversity that they had overcome. And we bonded and connected so much as a team. And so I really learned at that point that there's there's so much power and vulnerability. And no, you don't have to go and share your deepest darkest secret like I did, but leaders need to to be real. They need to be able to connect with their people. And you do that by being vulnerable. You do that by sharing the why you aren't you should always be transparent about your decisions and, and, and and bring people along for the journey both personally and professionally. And you build people who will follow you to the end of the earth and back, the people do not want to follow people who they feel, tell them what they want to hear, or don't tell the truth, or who they don't connect with and vulnerability and transparency, you know, does all those things?
Greg Voisen
Well, and I think the bigger part of that is the big tea. Right? That's the truth, right? And the truth is there. And around that particular truth is probably some of the largest spiritual growth that can occur for not only the individual, but truly the other people that are around you that are looking at you and going, wow, you know, that's what I kind of want to emulate. And that's important, because they know there isn't going to be reprimand, action, or being reprimanded for something that maybe went wrong if they told the truth. And we know this from the hospital industry, because in that industry, what has gone on for years, is the nurses didn't really want to tell the truth about how things were going on with a patient. And so the amount of people that expired as a result of, of actually mistakes that were being made inside of hospitals until really kind of recently this came out, right, because they were so afraid of telling the truth. And now it's kind of a hopefully, I'm gonna say hopefully, it's something that's being done. Now, you know, this book is filled with great stories, you told a lot of great stories, and you give a lot of advice about how to be a better leader, right? If you were to leave the listeners with three bits of advice on becoming a better leader, a better person, a better mother, or father, boyfriend, girlfriend, whatever it might be, what would you like to leave our listeners with? Now,
Kerry Siggins
first, self awareness is everything you need to understand yourself. And the more you understand yourself, the better that you can be in any relationship, whether that's a professional one or a personal one. So take the time to understand yourself, your strengths, your weaknesses, how you impact people, the way you show up, that self awareness is key. The second thing is Do not be afraid of feedback, we grow through feedback. So many of us spend so much time trying to avoid getting feedback. And what we don't realize is that there's so much growth in it, every piece of feedback that I have ever received, has helped make me a better person and a better leader, even if it hurts, and and so seek it out. Look for it, find there's always a way to own a piece of the feedback. So don't blame, don't deflect, internalize it and figure out how you can use it to feel you to be a better leader. And then finally, bet on yourself. Always bet on yourself, there's no better bet than yourself. You talk about, you know, a spiritual journey. I am a full believer that, you know, when you know who you are. And you explore that relationship with the universe with God, whatever you believe. And you realize that you can do what you put your mind to that your action, your your thoughts become, you know, if you take if you take your thoughts, and you turn it into action, and and you can make things happen for yourself, and the universe is going to help you do that if you truly bet on yourself. So, go after your dreams. Don't be afraid to have the hard conversation. Do what fills you with joy. Life is way too short. And you should always bet on yourself and live the life that you want to live.
Greg Voisen
Those are great bits of advice. And I'm looking over your head and it says one team owning it. Yes, I would say that your head is kind of blocking out part of it. But I made it out there you go to get actually together it says together. One, one team owning it together. And I think that's important for all of the listeners to understand and that's what you keep a mindset of and it is around the growth mindset. Carol Dweck growth mindset situation. And you know, for individuals out there who are thinking about an ESOP. This would be the book to get to kind of tell the story about the story. And also for those of you who are trying to improve the leadership or grow a team around being people taking more responsibility, people wanting to learn some lessons around leadership. This book is excellent for that. You have wonderful endorsements from this book, David Meltzer who I know personally, Paul Epstein Kelly Thompson. So for everybody out there, go get a copy of this book, actually on the front of it, isn't it? Car gold now?
Kerry Siggins
Yeah, she's amazing founder of Whitewater. Yeah, she's awesome.
Greg Voisen
So, go get a copy of this book and we'll put a link to it in the blog. Carrie, it's been a pleasure having you on insight, personal growth and you're sharing some of the story about how you made your way to CEO of the company, about how your personal life experiences actually helped you in that process. And truly the lessons that you've learned that you passed on to our listeners today about leadership and personal growth. Thanks for being on namaste to you. Thanks for being on Inside Personal Growth. I appreciate it.
Kerry Siggins
Thank you.
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Inside Personal Growth with Greg Voisen · Podcast 1102: Unlocking the Secrets to Remarkable Impact with Guy KawasakiIn a recent riveting conversation on “Inside Personal Growth,” Guy Kawasaki, the prolific author and influential thinker, shared valuable insights from his latest book, “Think Remarkable.” As we explored this guide to living a life of meaning and impact, Kawasaki delved into the essence of making a real difference in the world.
Embracing Growth, Grit, and Grace
Guy structures his wisdom around three transformative concepts: growth, grit, and grace. These elements are essential for personal transformation, enabling individuals to learn continually, overcome challenges, and ultimately, give back to society. His discussions are peppered with anecdotes and lessons from his extensive experience in Silicon Valley, emphasizing the practical application of these concepts.
Learning from the Best
One of the most compelling aspects of Kawasaki’s approach is his use of interviews from his podcast, “Remarkable People.” By distilling over 250 hours of conversations with luminaries like Jane Goodall and Neil deGrasse Tyson, Kawasaki offers a condensed path to wisdom. These narratives not only inspire but also provide clear roadmaps for those looking to enhance their impact on the world.
Making a Difference Through Action
Kawasaki passionately argues that remarkable living doesn’t stem from fame or wealth but from genuine, impactful actions. Whether it’s through innovative problem-solving or heartfelt service, making a difference is within everyone’s reach. This democratization of impact is a central theme, encouraging readers to pursue paths that contribute positively to society.
A Call to Transformative Action
The discussion highlighted the need for individuals to adopt a mindset of continuous improvement and resilience. Kawasaki’s call to action is clear: equip yourself with the knowledge and courage to face life’s challenges head-on and commit to making a meaningful difference.
As Guy Kawasaki continues to inspire through his writings and talks, his latest book serves as a crucial reminder of the power each person holds. By choosing to live a values-driven life, we can all aspire to be truly remarkable—not just in our achievements but in our contribution to the greater good.
We are also going to provide you with an amazing free gift which are the lessons from the book that were created with Canva, please click here to access this wonderful learning program at no cost or obligation, just Think Remarkable!
You may also refer to the transcripts below for the full transciption (not edited) of the interview.
Interview Transcipt -Not EditedEmailDownloadNew TabGreg Voisen
Welcome back to Inside Personal Growth. This is Greg Voisen, host of Inside Personal Growth. And for all of you out there, I'm sure you recognize the guy on the other side of the screen, it's Guy Kawasaki. Guy has been on this planet as long as me, we're both 69 years old. I want to acknowledge him for that.
Guy Kawasaki
Like two old cockroaches...
Greg Voisen
Two old cockroaches, but we're really not old. We're young at heart. So we're still doing this. We're out here doing it. And he has a new book out. And it's called Think Remarkable. And it's foreword by Jane Goodall. I want to know how you got Jane Goodall to look in your hair for your podcast show because she's on everyone. She's like, she was looking in the gorilla. It was really good.
Guy Kawasaki
She wasn't looking in my hair. She was looking for lice, that's what chimpanzees do for each other.
Greg Voisen
I know. And I want to give a shout out to Madison. New summer I'm pronouncing it right or no Did I screw her nice, nice summer. She's the co-author with guy on the book as well. And for all of you please go out. We'll put a link to Amazon we'll put a link to Guy Kawasaki. That's kawasaki.com. There you can learn more about his podcast, His books, His speeches, his classes, his resources, everything. Well, you know, guy.
Guy Kawasaki
It's, it's a good day when I can be on your podcast.
Greg Voisen
Well, it's a good day that you came on the podcast because this is going to be a rock and roll podcast. I already feel it. So, I reflect back I just mentioned to you a few seconds ago for started recording that we did a podcast back in September 2011, for your book, enchantment, the art of changing hearts, minds and actions. And here's what I realized, as I was reflecting, getting ready to do this podcast, that you've been on quite a journey. I mean, when I look at Canva, Apple, and I look at all these places that you've been, but your personal purpose has always been steadfast. I remember watching you speak at events, and I met you first and I can't even remember where the event was. It might have been the CES show or something like that wherever you spoke. I think it when I met you first it was actually Bill Gates was speaking as well. What is your personal purpose? And what do you hope that the readers are going to take away from your new book that will inspire them in here's the important point to live their lives on purpose and make a difference in the world.
Guy Kawasaki
So I have this podcast called remarkable people then it's now five years old, so it's much younger than yours. And I now have about 250 episodes, and that's 250 hours plus 5000 pages of transcripts. And it's with people like Jane Goodall and Margaret Atwood, Stacey Abrams, Carol Dweck, Angela Duckworth, Stephen Wolfram, Stephen Wozniak. And so I figured out there's a ton of inspiration and information in those transcripts and hours of episodes. But it's asking too much for people to read that much, or listen to that much. So Madison and I, we took 5000 pages down to 170. And it's heavily filtered and influenced by my hand to hand combat on the front lines of technology in Silicon Valley. And so this is a book it's not, you know, it's not a guy's story, per se, I'm the editor. I'm the you know, I'm the person who's like, making it all work as opposed to the actual content provider. And so I'm trying to capture the information and inspiration of these 250 people or so so that you can you can profit from the lessons of a Jane Goodall or a Neil deGrasse Tyson that, you know, you may not be able to get to know personally.
Greg Voisen
Well, you did a wonderful job of it. And I love the pictures in the book. And I love the stories because the stories really tell it all the stories of all these people's names, who many of our listeners aren't going to know because they're just not But same thing with your podcasts. You do the same thing. You have people who maybe aren't recognizable names every day out there. but who have made a huge difference in the world. And one of the things I want to let the listeners know, and they may or may not know this about you is that besides this journey with Apple, you're you're still the chief evangelist office for Canva, the creator of remarkable people podcast, you said, your executive Fellow at Haas School of Business at UC Berkeley in a job an adjunct professor at University of South Wales. That's an interesting one. He's also the chief evangelist for apple and a trustee of the Wikimedia Foundation. And he's written so many books go out and check him out. There's 11 of them. And he has his BA from Stanford and an MBA from UCLA and honorary doctorate from Babson College. Well, with that being said, you know, you did something really quite interesting. And you tell the ionic think, different story. Because like, you've been a great marketer, a great marketing guy, as they say, and this advertising campaign that ran you even show Einstein the picture, but you open the book with the ionic story of think, different advertising campaign that you ran in 97. Could you tell the sport story, and I think more importantly, speak with our listeners about the three distinct sections of this book, which it's around growth, grit, and grace, a why these elements are really so important for personal transformation. You know, you've, you've been on your own personal journey. And I know grit has been one of the bigger ones that you've had to meet with all the obstacles along the way. And as my personal growth listeners want to know, they want to know, how do I develop that strong grid?
Guy Kawasaki
Yes. So. So first, you want me to talk about the thing? Different campaign, right? Yeah, yeah. Okay. So think different was the ad campaign that happened in 1997. And to go back in history, at that time, many people thought that Apple would die. And so the same thinking, if you will, was that Apple would die windows would take over the world. And so Apple came up with this campaign called Think Different where it showed like Einstein, Picasso, Amelia Earhart, Richard Branson, people that the message was, if you think different, if you are an innovator, if you're a visionary, if you are a pioneer, then you have to think different. And the, the logic was, well, if you want to use a Macintosh, you need to think different, just like these leaders. And the the ad campaign was unveiled to the marketing department of Apple, I was in that meeting, at the time, I was an apple fellow and chief evangelist. And Steve Jobs was also in the meeting. So at the end of the presentation of this ad campaign, Lee Clow, from the ad agency says to Steve, I have two copies of these videos, I'm going to give one to you and one to guy. And Steve, as only Steve would say, he says, No, just give me both copies. Don't give one to guy. And so at that moment, I spoke up and I said, What's the matter? Steve? Don't you trust me? And then he said, No, guy, I do not trust you. And you know, as I look back, this is one of those man or mouse moments where you know, for the rest of your life, you're gonna say, Why did I not speak up? Why did I not stand up for myself? So I said, Screw it. Let's do it. So when he said that, I said, That's okay, Steve, because I don't trust you either. And that probably cost me a few 10s of millions of dollars in stock. But I'm telling you, it was worth it. So that's the thing different campaign and, you know, why did I tell that story at the beginning of the book, it's because well, as I wanted to hook you, make you read the book, but be my logic is that, you know, back then thinking different was okay, but now it seems like, you know, the world is in a worse place in many ways. So now you have to go beyond thinking different into thinking remarkable. So the next question, of course, is what's remarkable, and for me, remarkable is not that you're rich or famous, but that you have made the world a better place that you have made a difference. And so this book is geared towards how to make a difference, because my logic is if you make a difference, then people will have no choice but to consider you. Remarkable. So this is not a chicken or egg thing. You know, it's not about repositioning or rebranding yourself, this is about step one is you make a difference. Step two is people consider you remarkable, and that's what I'm all about. As you say the book is divided into three pieces, growth, grit and grace and This is because over the course of five years and interviewing all these people in my own career, it's just been so obvious to me that if you want to make a difference, and you want to be remarkable, then you need to grow through three phases. And growth is where you learn to learn that you learned that you can do more things, you can take risks, you can embrace vulnerability. And even if you have a growth mindset, it's still not going to come easy. So you need to have grit. And this is the work of Angela Duckworth. And finally, with growth and grip, you probably achieved some success. But in the last third of your career, I think that remarkable people, they turn from, you know, trying to achieve success to trying to pay back. And so I call this success of bluejay, which may have a bleach success of leisure, in my mind is that when you are successful, it's not just because you have growth and grit, but because some teachers, some coach, some mentors, you know, somebody gave you some breaks. And so because they gave you breaks that enabled you to succeed, you owe the universe, a payback, and a payback is you help other people succeed to
Greg Voisen
you know, it's interesting, you said that story about Steve Jobs and you standing up. And I think one of those things you learn along the way is strong purpose and personal values. I had two authors on here around values. And one of your values is your own integrity, right. And when you carry these kinds of things in, you're vulnerable, and you have high integrity, and you determined your what your values are, you can stand there in that position. And regardless of that customer, you 10s of millions of dollars, you kind of stood up for yourself, you know, and you I recently listened to the podcast you did with Angela Duckworth with quite fervor. It was called the gritty road to growth. And in the podcast, I happened to be driving in the car at the time. And it Angela's speaks about her mother and her father, and how she looked at her mother as a champion, because really, her father was the king pan, she thought, right. But when she reevaluated things after father died, she really figured it out. Would you mind telling the story and what you learned about from Angela during that podcast, because that particular podcast to me, was really fascinating, because of the epiphany that Angela had between her mother or father. Listen,
Guy Kawasaki
when I did that interview, I had no idea that was coming. Okay. I mean, it's, it was not a scripted moment at all. I don't think even Angela intended to talk about that. Well, somehow she got to telling the story of how her father were setting these high high standards for her. And, you know, he wanted her to be a doctor or you know, something like that. And she wanted to be an educator. So, one great story before the great story is she tells her father she wants to be an educator and the father like ruminates about this overnight. And the next day, he comes to her and he says, Okay, you can be an educator, but I want you to be Secretary of Education of the United States, which I mean, I don't want to perpetuate any Asian stereotypes. But yeah, that's, that's a tiger dad. So she tells the story of how her her Tiger dad, you know, set these high standards for her, which, for most of her life, she thought this is the kind of the determining factor that drove her to succeed. But then, she really figured out her mother's about 90 Now she figured out that, you know, her mother was remarkable too. She left either China or Taiwan and came to America by herself to seek a better life. She's not speaking English. She made all these sacrifices. She wanted to be an artist, but she she sacrificed for her two kids. And, and, you know, with hindsight, Angela, realize that she made a lot of sacrifices to it wasn't just her father, who was the primary determinant of her success. So she tells a story that her father passed away. And now her mother has this kind of freedom and she now at 90 wants to realize her dream of being an artist. She's in a assisted living house, and she went to the director of the house and said, You know, I want another room. And he said, Well, what's the matter with the room? You have? Don't you like it? She goes, No, I love it. I just I want another room and I'm gonna make that my studio. That was you know, 90 years old assisted living, you're asking for another room to make an Artists studio. I mean, how cool is that you? You really, you can't get much cooler than that. That
Greg Voisen
was a, I want to just tell all my listeners go to guys podcasts, we'll put a link, and especially that one, because it was so moving for me for to understand the realization of really the contribution and the sacrifices her mother had made. Because her father was so strong, she always thought her father was the strongest one, she really found out her mother was the strongest one. And I think in many of these families, you will find that out. We don't give enough credit from that side. You know, uh, you, you basically with these 200 people, Jane Goodall, Stacey, Abrams, but this Olivia Giuliani Giuliani was an interesting one. And the interview was with all these remarkable people, but her story, which is so compelling, and a great example of someone who was trying to make a difference on abortion rights. Can you just paraphrase that story for our listeners? Because I don't think many people know who Olivia is. But the reality the difference she made with you're talking about wanting to make a difference? Huge difference. Yep.
Guy Kawasaki
So Olivia Giuliana is about a 20 year old political activist from Houston, Texas. And this is a great story. It's It's sad that a story like this even exists in America. So this congressman from Florida named Matt Gaetz, he made a speech at a conservative gathering. And he said it in the speech something to the effect of it. Uh, why is it that the short, fat ugly women who look like thumbs are the ones always trying to get abortion rights when they're the least likely to have sex and get pregnant? I mean, I, you know, you just your head explodes to think that a congressman would lower himself that law. I mean, you can't get much lower than that. Yeah, I
Greg Voisen
agree. I agree.
Guy Kawasaki
So, so when he said that, Olivia tweeted, I'm five foot 11. Without shoes, I'm six, three with shoes. And I like to stand tall so that men like you know you where you stand. Okay. And so then, Matt gates responded with something like dander raised. In other words, I got under your skin, Olivia. And Olivia turn that interaction around into a fundraising effort for abortion rights. And she raised two and a half million dollars off that exchange. And I just think that that is one of the greatest stories I've ever heard. Oh, Jesus. I mean, you know, have we gone so low that a congressman has to pick on a 18 or 19 year old kid from Houston, Texas, I mean, I, one of the things I learned in my book is that people who are remarkable, they do not punch down. Right? See people punch down, that person is not remarkable. Just cross that person off your list.
Greg Voisen
Right? I was going to show the listeners on here, but go just get the book. Because in here, he has some great pictures of all of these remarkable people really, and they are remarkable. And like I said, 200 people, the interviewed for this, and he put as many as he could in the book. And, you know, there's one thing that you said during that interview with Angela, that kind of stuck in my mind, you said, you know, you have a chapter on adopting this growth mindset. And you mentioned that you're not a remarkable hockey player or surfer. And you mentioned that you took up sports at the ages of 44 and 60, respectively, meaning surfing at 60. What do you want our listeners to know about starting something because this goes back to Angela's mother. She held off doing a lot. She's 90 years old now. Right? And you put the two and two together and she says I'm going to have my own art studio. So knowing that it's never too late to begin and adopting this growth mindset, what would you want to let the listeners walk away with because I think a lot of people guy allow things to they're fearful. Yeah, if there's only one thing, the biggest thing is fear that gets in the way of them accomplishing something they'd like to do, right? Whether it's doing a bungee jump, or it's skiing down a double black diamond, or it's any of the Just kind of things that you want to do. Tell us a little bit more about your own fears of surfing. By
Guy Kawasaki
the way, I would not do either of those two things. But that's a side discussion. So yeah, I took up the ice hockey at the age of 44. I'm from Hawaii, so I had literally never skated before. And, you know, in Hawaii, we don't exactly have a lot of pond hockey and we have shaved ice, but we don't have, you know, Pong the ice. And then I took up surfing at 60 because my daughter took up surfing. And I think that that is you know, a true testament to a growth mindset because most people don't take up hockey at 44, much less surfing at 60. And I really learned these lessons from Carol Dweck Carol Dweck, is the mother of the growth mindset. And she's a professor at Stanford. And this this book mindset that she were wrote, is huge influence upon me, you know, not just in terms of sports, but you know, when you are tasting that when an author tells you to read somebody else's book, there is no more sincere form of flattery. So I'm going to tell you two books to read. One is Mindset by Carol Dweck DW e CK. The other book is called if you want to write by Brenda unit, the u e, LA and D. And Brenda humans book basically says if you want to write right now, many of you may not be writers, but just substitute whatever you're interested in their programming, moviemaking, you know, painting, whatever you want. And so I think part of the growth mindset is you got to get past the naysayers and these so called experts. All right, I like to combine a term and two terms, schmuck and experts makes SHM expert experts. So these experts tell you, you know, you can't write you don't have a PhD in English, you've never taken a course in creative writing, you're not a writer, well, that's a shame expert for you. Because that person should not be what's in your head, limiting what you can do. You never let somebody else limit what you can do. And so I think that's a very important lesson about, you know, embracing vulnerability and taking that risk, whether it's surfing or riding or ice hockey. Very, very important that the lessons.
Greg Voisen
Well, those are two great books. And like you said, it's a great honor for you to mention those twos. But the Carolyn DUAC are the Carol Dweck book, I'm sure many of my listeners know. But if you haven't read it, read, go back and reread it because the value that's in that book is truly all the studies she did as a psychologist. It's amazing. It really is. And it's something that you'll walk away with a new mindset, the growth mindset. First,
Guy Kawasaki
let me make it even better for you all. Okay, Carol Dweck had a protege named Mary Murphy and I interviewed Mary Murphy after the book was done. Mary Murphy is also professor of psychology. And she came up with this brilliant idea, insight. Insight, really an insight is that, you know, Carol Dweck talks about the mindset, which is really in your head, right? You're not a writer, or you are a writer. And there's these Shrek spurts, which are external, but they affect your brain and, obviously, or not, obviously, but one of the big factors in coming, overcoming a fixed mindset is overcoming your own self imposed negativity. Okay, anyway, so the growth mindset is about what's in your head. But Mary Murphy has pointed out that you also need to compensate for the environment that you're in. So if you have a growth mindset, but you're in an organization with a fixed mindset, you're gonna have a lot of problems, because the fixed mindset organization doesn't give you the ability to progress and to learn, they think that whatever you are, is what you're going to remain. So a very important aspect of the growth mindset is to also read a book by Mary Murphy that talks about the implications of the environment that you're in, because it needs both to truly succeed.
Greg Voisen
Well, you now have given three great recommendations and I'm gonna give you one you might know this gentleman, and it is I just did an interview with him and his name is Dr. James, Dottie, do t y at Stanford. He's the head of compassion and altruism. But he is a neuroscientist who just wrote a book called Mind magic. And I think he'd be somebody that you should certainly. Okay. And I will, I'm after we get off here, I'll do it. For all my listeners. We'll be posting that pod cast on or about May 5, with Dr. Dottie a, you know, everybody knows Brene Brown. I mean, you've been on the stage with her, I'm sure. And you speak about vulnerability, and everybody talks about vulnerability. But sometimes I will say males have a challenge being as vulnerable as we should. And we face and we all face sale failures and setbacks along the way. Whether we want to admit it or not. What have been some of the setbacks and failures? And what have you learned from your own? And what advice would you provide our listeners so that they can be resilient despite setbacks? And then if you would give us some examples from the books, individuals which I picked out? Andrea Pete and Kristi Yamaguchi. Most people think Kristi Yamaguchi Well, she just ended up with an Olympic gold medal. They don't look at what she had to put into it and a setback she had in the process. And this this other one, Andrea, Pete, is really phenomenal, considering she had ALS, my goodness, gracious, you know. So
Guy Kawasaki
these are two remarkable women. So Kristi Yamaguchi, who we all know is this world champion figure skater Olympic goal. So this is a great story. She told me, which is in her first competition as a little kid, she finished 12th. And she went through her mom and said, Well, how come those other girls got ribbons? And I didn't. And her mom said, it's because you finished 12 Christi. And you know that I mean, I don't know if that was the single moment, but she figured out you got to pay the price. You know, you got to be you've got to show grit. And so Christie started just practicing hours every day and and you know, 10 or 15 years later, she's world champion. And, and I think that is a great story of what you have to do. I mean, if listen if being remarkable and making a difference were as easy as reading my book or Brenda humans book or Carol Dweck school, there wouldn't be a lot more remarkable people in the world, I'm telling ya. So that's the story. Now, I you know, we we need to, I think one of the ways that you overcome vulnerability and you view you know, embrace yourself is you listen to stories like that, and you think, you know, wow, Kristi Yamaguchi finished 12. In her first contest. I finished 12th In my first contest, maybe I can be like that, right? And then Andrea Lydell, Pete, about nine years ago, she was diagnosed with ALS and ALS, for those of you who are not familiar, usually kills the person in two to three years. So she's lived in a seven year on the usual expectancy now, when most people get ALS, or I think when most people would get a diagnosis like that. I don't know about you, but I would go into a deep funk. And I don't know if I'd ever come out of that funk. But Andrea decided that now that she's had this als diagnosis, she's going to complete a marathon in all 50 states. I mean, is that not a remarkable reaction? And she has actually pulled this off. And I'll tell you a great story about Andrea lado Pete that shows you the spirit and the strength of this woman's character. So you know, what better marathon to make your 50th marathon in the Boston Marathon? Right? I mean, that's, that's
Greg Voisen
this app. People can, they can actually see her if you're watching on video, I'm showing the page that she's on, which is 29. So, yeah. So so
Guy Kawasaki
she decides, you know, well, the best place to finish this. This challenge is the Boston Marathon. But she at this point, she rides a tricycle tricycle trike or you know,
Greg Voisen
three wheeled, right, they will buy, right?
Guy Kawasaki
And the Boston Marathon has many categories, but not for three wheeled bikes. So she applies to the Boston Marathon and the Boston Marathon turns her down because they don't have a category for the type of vehicle that she pedals. You know, I just like if you think about that for just 30 seconds, they have other categories for people with disabilities, but not that particular one. So, you know, it's not like, I don't think anybody was gonna say, Oh, my God that, you know, that's an illegal vehicle, throw her out of the race. Why didn't they just let her race like, right? Isn't that the point? But anyway, so she gets rejected from the Boston Marathon. And so what she did instead is she went to with her little team, and ran or bite the course, the day before the official Boston Marathon, so she could say she did that marathon and I gotta tell you, I just love that spirit. I'm very, you know, you're not letting me compete. I'll just do it on my own on a course before the official race. I mean, how great is
Greg Voisen
that? They I remember a story. And you probably remember this. I'm not certain because you've been on hundreds and hundreds of stages, maybe 1000s, speaking to audiences. And when I was at a meeting for the million dollar round team up table, a young man with no legs came out on stage, who was a weightlifter. And they he was competing in competitions, just like her. And they said, We don't have a category for somebody without legs, yet. He lifted more weight than anybody. Do. You know what I'm talking about. I don't remember the guy's name. I don't know this story. This, this was like blew me away. Because he was he doesn't walk across the stage, he uses his hands to move across the stage, obviously, right. And he's saying you can't believe they couldn't find a spot for me. Ultimately, he petitioned he got in, and he won the competition, right. So it just shows you That's remarkable. That is truly remarkable to go to that degree. Now, one of the things that you speak about and making a difference, as I was going through the book, I loved the story. You tell a story about the eucalyptus trees in your backyard, and your removal of these trees to plant oaks. And I just had Jim Cathcart on here this morning. And he said to say hi, by the way, and you know, his is about the Oaks. And he speaks a lot about he uses that analogy of the acorn. And so why is the story or this metaphor of planting acorns perfect for making a difference and being remarkable, because what you also said is you probably won't be here to see those oak trees, which I would probably say you're right. Actually make it to their maturity. Well, left histories, they grow like weeds.
Guy Kawasaki
Okay. This is a great story. So I live in Watsonville, California. And listen, I love a lot of things from Australia, believe it or not, I'm deaf and my cochlear implant is from Australia. I'm Chief Evangelist of a company from Australia. I have an external display from my laptop from Australia, a lot of good things come from Australia, but Eucalyptus is not one of them. Eucalyptus is an invasive species, it takes a lot of water to have weak root structures, so they fall over all the time. And more than anything else, they burn, they have these oils in them, so they burn very well. And so when your house is surrounded by eucalyptus trees, it's it's kind of like you're surrounded by dynamite. I could go off at any moment. I cut down a lot of eucalyptus trees. And now I'm left with this kind of bear Hill and I you know, and I see, I don't want to look over this bear Hill, like, you know, some apocalyptic thing just happened. So let's return this hill to its natural state and the natural native species there are here is Oak. So then I have to do all this research like how do you plant oaks? And I learned that yes, you can put in a sapling or a seedling but it's better to start from an acorn because when you put an acorn in the ground, I guess the tap root is better or something but anyway, an acorn will catch up to a sapling and a seedling so you know. Go get acorn so now I'm on this quest to go get acorns and believe it or not, not every oak tree drops acorns I got drive all over looking for acorns. I finally found I'll give you an inside tip if you if you want to emulate what I did in plant acorns. on University Avenue in Los Gatos, California, there's a lot of oak trees that drop a lot of acorns. I just said a Japanese guy collecting acorns there that was me. Okay, so now you you get your acorns and you bring them and you put them in waters because the ones that are dead float. So you throw out all the dead floaters and you keep the ones that sink and then you put them in your refrigerator for a few months to simulate winter because I don't know if somehow that triggers their growth and then after that you plant them and and you hope that they take root but I'll tell you, I've planted hundreds of acorns and I got about 10 seedlings out of it. And then you got to worry about deer and you got to worry about you know everything else and and after all that in 20 years they'll be oaks that provides shade. And as you pointed out, I'm 69. So best case 89 I might be able to sit under the old that made that shade. But you know, odds are, I'll be gone. So that that is also like a big moment in one's life, when you realize you're doing something that's not for you. This is no way it's going to be for me, this is for my kids and grandkids. But anyway, okay, so now you know more about oaks and acorns, as you'll probably ever wanted. But the point here is that, if you want to make a difference, it's, it's very difficult to specify, you know, this is exactly my path. This is exactly what I should do. This is, you know, this is exactly the piece of software I should write this is exactly the book I should write. My experience is that you have to plant a lot of orcs to get a few old trees. It's a law of big numbers. And so the message there is, if you want to make a difference, you got to plant a lot of seeds.
Greg Voisen
And what comes from that, for me is you can't be afraid to fail. You've just got to go do you know, I was speaking with Jim Cathcart. I said, Jim, you're the guy. He's 78 Now or something. And I said, you just keep showing up. I keep seeing you all over, because you did show up. And I think that is part of it. When you show up. And I want to talk about speaking with the listeners, you have a chapter in the book about doing good shit, and how doing the right thing is needed the simplest nor the most practical option. And maybe that was when you started the beginning of the book, telling Steve Jobs that you didn't trust in me there. But that was maybe not the most radical, but you did. But that making a difference meant there is a light at the end of the tunnel. How though? Did you discern and follow your inner compass, because that's really true. When you get an idea or thought you're like the idea guy, you've had tons of ideas. They haven't all worked out. But I saw the list on your website of all the companies you've been involved in. But there's probably a list three times as long as a company that isn't there, that you that you tried something and it didn't work and you fail, right? Well,
Guy Kawasaki
you know, listen, I started my career. In the jewelry manufacturing business. I'm ending my career as Chief Evangelist of Canva. Now, right after the jewelry business, I went to Apple. And so you know, when I tell people, you know, what's your background I sell I'm Chief Evangelist of Apple Chief Evangelist of Canva. Board, after Sadie's Benz Wikipedia, you know, I only talk about the successes. I'm not stupid, right? I mean, I'll tell you something in Silicon Valley, we throw a lot of shade up against the wall, a very small part of it sticks. And then we go up to what stuck and we point the paint the bullseye around that and we declare victory. We say I hit the bullseye. Well, let me tell you some advice. You can always hit the bull's eye, if you paint the bull's eye after you shoot the arrow. And I think that that's a very important concept. And Steve Jobs addressed this in his commencement speech at Stanford, and he said, Listen, you can only connect the dots looking backwards. It's it's impossible to connect them. We're looking forward. And, you know, like, I quit law school, I quit Moscow after two weeks. It's not like I had a plan, right? I mean, I didn't say Oh, guy, you know, the strategic move right now is to quit law school that's gonna pay in the long run. I quit law school because I was miserable. And yet, I can look back and say, Well, that was a really good thing. I did that. And maybe it's rationalization. But I think that, you know, people should give themselves a break, and especially, especially people who are Gen Z listening to this, you're going to be alive till you're 90 or 95, you got a lot of time and don't be afraid of taking a lot of samples and making a lot of mistakes. And, Gary, you could make the argument that the opposite of success is not failure. The opposite of success is learning. And as long as you learning and you don't make the same failure twice, you're on a path, you're on a path to make a difference.
Greg Voisen
Well, like you obviously could speak with us all day long about writing our goals. But you learned the most from this by GARRETT MCNAMARA the guy used to serve with Yeah, right. Yeah, he says most people do it wrong. And I took this from the book, but could you tell the listeners about a plan, the roadmap and the suggestion way there. Now McNamara tells you to go go to Eureka is whether this chapter is get beyond Eureka my for my listeners. Well,
Guy Kawasaki
it's interesting that here's a great juxtaposition that I bet no one in the history of mankind has made it. So on the one hand, we have GARRETT MCNAMARA. He is the star of the HBO series 100 foot wave. So his idea of a fun time is going out and surfing 100 foot ways in PNAS. Okay. Now, at the other end of the spectrum, we have Julia Cameron, and Julia Cameron wakes up every day and she writes this journal entry longhand. And I'm telling you that multiple times people talk about, you know, yes, you need to have goals, but you need to write them down. There's something about writing things down. That makes you more careful, more knowledgeable, more cogent, more dedicated. Writing your goals down is a very important thing. And and I'll tell you one more lesson from GARRETT MCNAMARA, which is that you know how people talk about faking it until you make it and you know, trying to put on this tough face and all that he didn't say that at all, what he said you need to do is not fake it till you make it, you need to face your fears. So Garrett, McNamara 100 foot wave surfer. He said for a long time, he would not go out in anything that's 10 or 12 feet, he was afraid to do that until his friends forced him to do it to face his fears. So he faced his fears, got past the 10 to 12 Mark, and then kept going. And now he's, you know, the biggest waves in the world. Right. So I know, I'm not advocating that all of you become big wave surfers. But let's take something that many of us share, which is the fear of public speaking. So the way to get past the fear of public speaking, guess what is to face your fears. So you just need to get out there and speak, speak, speak dozens and dozens of times. And I have spoken hundreds of times. And I'm telling you right now that I'm the GARRETT MCNAMARA of public speaking, I don't fear anything about public speaking anymore. And that just comes with repetition. So if you want to make a difference and be remarkable, you need to face your fears.
Greg Voisen
Well, one of those things for Garrett, and for you, and every time you keep facing that fear, it's almost like sitting down at a piano. Once you conquer that piano, you know, it's like, Hey, I've practice this enough. I have practice speaking, so that you feel comfortable. A lot of people will say, well, even after 100 times being on the stage, I still get stage fright. And you're like saying, Well, no, I don't really see why you do that you don't have to have stage fright. Because there's really nothing to be afraid of. I always say, if you speak to an audience, like they're your best friend in the movie theater when you're whispering to them about the movie. That's really what you want to do.
Guy Kawasaki
I think the key to public speaking is telling stories, right? Yes, stories are the key to good public speakers. Now. If you think about it, just think about you're afraid of public speaking. But if you were sitting at a bar, and having beers, or you're sitting at a dinner table with your friends, and you tell the story about how you know you did this, or you did that, or you saw somebody do this or you know, you read Carol Dweck book or something, if you're just talking to your friends telling them story. Are you nervous? Are you scared that they might not applaud? Are you scared of you know, making a miscommunication or misstep? Not at all, you're crying out loud, you're telling stories to your friends. And that should be your mindset. When you make a speak, you're telling stories to your friends. And I think that, you know, people need to get through their head, this the most important fact, which is, the audience wants you to succeed. They don't want you to fail. Because if you think about it, if someone in the audience wants you to fail, it means that they're saying, I want to waste my time. I want to waste my time, I want to see that guy fail, which is ridiculous. Everybody considers their time important. So they want you to succeed, because a good speech means that they learn something they don't want, you have to fail.
Greg Voisen
No, that's true. Whether it's a TEDx talk, or it's speaking at the local high school to somebody, they're all the same. And I think the important thing is you You mentioned it, tell a good story. You know, they always say, tell them what you're going to tell them, tell them and then retell them again, right, or whatever that is. And then in your case, we want to insert great stories. And when you start with stories, it's relatable to people. And I think the key is stories are relatable. And I want you talking about telling stories, I have two questions still left in our podcast. And one of them is there isn't been anybody probably that's been put up on your chapter, sell your dreams to speak to who calls VC, whoever it is to try and raise money and pitch. And you said, the listen for our listeners who maybe are out there saying, hey, I need to get money for my idea. You're the guy. Let me tell you, who's that guy is the guy. How is it that most people get the whole pitch process wrong? You actually specifically mentioned the reason why. And you're you, I want you to tell this because I'm about ready to tell it. But I want you to tell it.
Guy Kawasaki
I'm sitting here with my fingers crossed, thank God, what did I say? Uh, well.
Greg Voisen
What you said was, no, no, don't tell me. Oh, you know, okay, we're
Guy Kawasaki
gonna take, we're gonna wait, I'm on high risk kind of guys. I hope I said that. What many people get wrong about a pitch from the get go, which ruins the whole pitch. If you get this part wrong, you, you, you, you know, you're you're digging yourself out of a hole, which is that the purpose of a pitch is not to get a signature on the bottom line. It's not that they asked you for wiring instructions. It's not that you you shock and awe and overwhelmed them in one hour. So they're just turned to Jelly, and they just all they want to do is give you money. Okay? That's not the purpose of a pitch, the purpose of a pitch is to not get eliminated and get to the next step, which is more discussion and due diligence. Now, if you get this wrong, and you think the purpose of a pitch is to use shock and awe, and get them into a money investing, check writing stage, then the what happens with your brain is now you think, Okay, I gotta get him into shock. And also more is better. So instead of 10 slides, I'm going to use 60. And I'm going to have five people for my team there. So they can see that I have a team and all these five people are going to have a speaking role. And you know, it's like, just it just compounds the crap upon the crap. You just remember, you just don't want to be eliminated, and that You declare victory if you're not eliminated. That's the key.
Greg Voisen
I hope I said, You got exactly right. I've already passed the test, you pass the test. Okay, one last question and the book up again, for my audience. Think remarkable with Guy Kawasaki, the nine paths to transform your life and make a difference. Truly, this is a fantastic book, I want all my listeners to go get this. And I want to ask you this one last question. You know, after people turn the last page of this book, you know, what is the one action or thought you hope sticks with them as they kind of move forward in their in their lives? We've talked about a lot today, from Angela Duckworth to Carol Dweck, too. You name it, and you gave three great books that my listeners can read on top of your book, but what is it that you really simply want people to walk away from here?
Guy Kawasaki
Well, I want people to walk away simply knowing that anybody and I do mean literally anybody can make a difference and can make the world a better place. I don't want people to walk away thinking that oh my god, I have to be Jane Goodall or Steve Jobs to you know, to be remarkable and make a difference. Anybody can make a difference. And if you make a difference, you will be considered remarkable. And so this this book, in my podcast is not called rich people or famous people. It's called remarkable people. And I want people to make a difference. And you know, that's the fundamental message. I want to leave that. Listen, when I die. I want people to say that I helped them make a difference. And that's, that's the most important thing I could say right now.
Greg Voisen
In the world we live in today. We need more people to make a difference when they need to be remarkable because they need to do some of the things that you've done, which is stand up to us others, we live in such a time right now, you and I could talk forever, about the divisiveness and, you know, what social media has done and all the other things we could talk about. But more importantly, is, I'd say, taken action. You know, people asked me, you know, Greg, why do you do this podcast, you've been doing this podcast for 18 years, I say, number one, because it helps people to gain clarity about what it is that they'd like from people like you. Number two, my whole show, I basically, the donations that I receive in go to compassionate communications Foundation, and I'm going to put a plug in right now. Because they come from authors. And they basically are saying, hey, help the homeless and Ukrainian refugees, I buy bicycles for the kids that are coming out of Ukraine, going to Poland, the resource that I have on the second thing I do is I go on the street with $100 gift cards, and I give them away to people who are in need. And so the point of it is compassionate communications Foundation, is the sole reason I do this podcast is so that I can let people get clear about what their purpose is and their dream in life. And then they can go do some of the things. And if somebody like me, you know, I say small little me can make my own little difference every year, year in and year out. Anybody out there can do that. Right? Anybody? So, and
Guy Kawasaki
you know what? It takes all of us doing little things. We cannot wait for this, you know, magic Savior to do this. It's us.
Greg Voisen
Yeah, it is? Well, I want to give you kudos for the book. I also shout out to Madison as well. Great book, you guys. Great compilation of putting things together, you guys gave me 95 questions to ask, there was no way I was gonna be able to get all 95. And actually, if you noticed, I only used one of your questions. And all the others were ones that I came up with. But that's what makes for a good interview.
Guy Kawasaki
Listen, in the chat, I just put you a link for you. So there are some people who you know, they're not readers. So working with Canva. We've created a free lesson online lesson. People can go through this lesson to learn how to be remarkable. So you don't like shooting myself in the foot. You don't need to buy the book. You can also take this course. But if you take the course properly, I would bet that you're going to be even more convinced to buy the book. No
Greg Voisen
Namaste to you, man. appreciate having you on the show.
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Inside Personal Growth with Greg Voisen · Podcast 1101: How We Go On with Dr. Ken DruckIn my latest podcast episode, I had the privilege of engaging in a heartfelt dialogue with Dr. Ken Druck, about his book How We Go On: Self-Compassion, Courage, and Gratitude on the Path Forward delving into the rich tapestry of wisdom woven throughout his book. Through poignant anecdotes, personal reflections, and practical insights, he offers a roadmap for navigating the complexities of grief, loss, and change with grace and resilience.
In my interview with him, he explores the essential qualities that underpin resilience, shedding light on the inner strength and courage that enable individuals to persevere in the face of adversity. We also discuss journey of grief where he talks about compassionate guidance on the process of grief, illuminating the path towards healing and renewal.
Throughout the interview, Dr. Druck provides listeners with actionable strategies for cultivating resilience, managing stress, and finding meaning amidst life’s challenges. From mindfulness practices to self-care techniques, his guidance empowers individuals to navigate life’s ups and downs with greater ease and grace.
My conversation with him was truly inspirational and engaging. He offers a timely and invaluable resource for individuals grappling with life’s challenges. Through his book How We Go On and the insights shared in this conversation, he provides a roadmap for navigating grief, embracing change, and cultivating resilience in the face of adversity.
If you want to know more about Dr. Ken Druck and his books, you may click here to visit his website.
You may also refer to the transcripts below for the full transciption (not edited) of the interview.
Interview Transcipt -Not EditedEmailDownloadNew TabGreg Voisen
Welcome back to Inside Personal Growth. This is Greg Voisen, the host of Inside Personal Growth. And joining me just a little bit south of me, I'm in Encinitas. He's in Del Mar, for all of you who don't know are listening. Those are two little coastal cities, just north of San Diego. But I think we're most of my listeners, they know where that is. Good morning to Ken, how you doing?
Dr. Ken Druck
Morning, Greg, so good to be back with you.
Greg Voisen
Well, it's a pleasure having you on Inside Personal Growth again. And it's always a pleasure. There's speaking about you and learning new things, which is what I want my listeners to do today is really, we're going to be speaking about his book. And I don't know, if you have a copy of there, you can hold up. But how we go on is the title of the book. He does have it. There we go. Self-Compassion, Courage and Gratitude on the Path Forward.
Dr. Ken Druck
And I'm gonna click on the top. I saw that. Yeah. Yeah, it'd be a great endorsement.
Greg Voisen
Well, and on top of that, I know she had she lost her husband. So she from colon cancer. And she certainly has been an advocate. And obviously, you as well, you were saying, Tomorrow is the anniversary of your daughter's death in an accident, which happened on March 27th 1996. But I'm gonna let the listeners know about to you that we're going to dig into this, we're really going to take this down to people learning how to become more compassionate with themselves and learning how to, I'm going to say, Have courage and have gratitude, in spite or some of these things that have gone on. And those are big words for people that are dealing with grief. And if there's anybody that can help them, it's you. So, Ken Druck is one of the world's leading experts on grief and resilience, since losing his own daughter, which we said Tomorrow will be an anniversary in a tragic accident. He's worked with families after 911 Sandy Hook, Columbine. And He's dedicated his life to providing roadmaps for getting through life's most daunting and difficult times and navigating its daily ups and downs. Dr. Ken is a bestselling author of several books, and you can go out there we did a podcast with him. In 2012. June on the post, we'll put a link to that. But this book, how we go on self-compassion, courage and gratitude on the path forward was released in 2023. He is the recipient of the prestigious distinguished contribution to psychology Award, a lecturer at UCSD School of Medicine and a noted speaker, conferences, special gatherings and global organizations. And you can pick him up on his website, but you can also go to www how we go on.com How we go on.com, the title of the book, and the other place you can reach him is just at his website, which is kendruck, d-r-u-c-k.com. There you can see about his books, press, his self-care handbook, which is noted there as well. And I think that'd be a good thing for you guys to like, download. So, Ken, without further ado, what I'd like to do is because you start this book off, and actually maybe even you start before it, you give a dedication to your dad, Charles truck. And you have his picture right at the beginning of the book. Yeah, man. I was just curious because I didn't know your dad's story. But maybe look in the lineage of things as we become, you know, wisdom tellers and storytellers. Storytelling is really important. It'd be good to know why you dedicated this book to your dad.
Dr. Ken Druck
Thank you for First of all, seeing that being the kind of guy that that would recognize that and want to take note of it. Because it was extremely important to me my dad passed in 1986 10 years before my daughter passed, and, and yet my relationship with him has deepened my understanding of him my appreciation and gratitude of everything. He was trying to do everything he was trying to impart to his kids. Everything he was doing in the world has only grown and you know, it's we speak about the love that never dies. Well not only never dies, sometimes it can grow, the richness, the understanding the forgiveness, the appreciation We have for people that have passed, or people that are still with us. aging parents, one of two books ago, my book was called raising an aging parent. And it was about the relationship that so many of us are having right now, or have had in recent years with a parent is getting older, we're saying, Well, wait a minute, you're not gonna be here that much longer. My own four year old grandson asked me a couple of months ago, he's a puppy, Are you old?
Greg Voisen
enough that I'm older? And
Dr. Ken Druck
I said, Well, what do you think, you know, it's always best to answer a kid with asking them what they think let's draw them out, rather than trying to give them the answers that we have, and feeling putting pressure on ourselves to have had come up with an answer for everything. And then he said, you know, are you? Are you going to die soon? When are you going to die? You know, because he's learning at four years old, you're beginning to have a sense that not everything goes on your cat, or you see a bird in the street, are you watching a story about somebody who dies. But the story of my father originates? First of all, it's the growing deep appreciation, gratitude that I have for him, that made me want to dedicate the book there. But it's also what he had to go on from had, you know, coming over, he was the first generation he was the youngest of five brothers, the first generation from his parents who came over from Russia, from Ukraine, and, and whose many and his parents and relatives had died in the Holocaust, trying to make their place and make their way in New York. And my father, kind of not knowing what he was good at, or, you know, the schools didn't tell you, they didn't give you a test to say, Hey, you're brilliant. And this, you should go into this. My father had to scramble at a very young age, he was turning the styles at Yankee Stadium, so he could go see Babe Ruth, and Lou Gehrig play baseball. But he and then he went into the Army, he served this country. And he did a great job in the army and learned that he had some leadership qualities and then went out to the world and started his own company, which he ran right up to the last day of his life. And wow, my dad story is an important one of how we go on when, when we were starting in a moment of lostness, of not knowing who we are or what we do well, but gathering slowly gathering and understanding of who we are, and how we can clear the path forward and move forward on that path, to live out our best possible life, which is what he did.
Greg Voisen
You know, it's interesting, the impressions our parents make on us, you know, as, as kids as young children growing up and then young adults, and I was listening to a podcast by Guy Kawasaki with the gal that writes all the books on positive psychology, shorts, all the book on grit, trying to think of her name is Dwight DUAC, I think it is whatever, she's of Asian descent, and her father was a hard driver, follow them all to go to school. And you know, he would it was all about education, education, and his mother, her mother to kind of the role of, you know, the mom, but she really wanted to be an artist. And she really didn't realize she respected her father. But until her father died, and her mother let her art blossom, and really came out and became an artist, she actually rented a whole other place in this old folks home to actually create the art, that just how strong she really was. In Europe, I'd have that right. And, you know, I think sometimes we get mixed signals. Right? And we really don't realize how strong these other people are. But in spite of that, they're they're supporting the whole family. And mothers are so very important. It's not Mother's Day, but it's coming up. Right.
Dr. Ken Druck
So right, such a great way, Greg, number one, we often our parents didn't know how to go about saying things and doing things that their intention was so good. They really wanted to bring out the best in us. Yeah, yet the way they went about it is what ends up getting critiqued. Yeah, come on. Now in a perfect world, you wouldn't have said that to me, or you would have done that or, you know, and, and often they didn't know how to go about their business. So, you know, way back in the day, I wrote a book called How to Talk to your kids. And it was after Columbine, and it was how to talk to your kids about school violence. We were just having the mass shootings, the awakening of violence in our country, unfortunately, and sadly and and and the the Look, people say how do you talk to your kids? I say you don't talk. You listen. Yeah, every good relationship begins with listening. And asking those open ended questions, not open ended the fake questions that are really laced with a message, like, Hey, you do you're gonna wear that jacket? Again? You know, it's like, that's not that's not a real question. That's a question that's a message disguised as a question. But it's asking your kids those open ended questions that allow them to, to consider their options and to and to voice their, their perspective, their ideas, their imagination, everything. And and then when asked, will pop up, or Dad, what do you think, you know, to be able to say, Well, I'm not sure 100%. But what I've been thinking is that this is this is rap, my, my, my daughter, Jenna, who's the beautiful young woman we spoke of earlier in the podcast, who died at age 21. At age four genic came up to me and said that why do we have to die? Like, okay, you're having your first existential moment of angst. And, and kids do not have to answer those and how we start this life. How we go on when, when death is is a concern, our whole lives? Do we spend our life running and fear and dreading and I think I think you know, the how we go on book is really, really my idea of how how do we face into we're all every single person listening to this. And everybody you know, is having a what now moment in their life? Got them? Going? What now? Or what now? And now that I realized that I'm not gonna live forever, that life is a lease deal. What now? Because my marriage is struggling, what now? Because I'm failing, I'm approaching retirement, how do I do this? What now my mom and dad are getting older or what now? My grandkids are doing something I don't like do I say something to my son or daughter? You know, it's whatever your what now moment? Is it changed to challenge a loss and opportunity, you've met the person to your dreams? What now? You know, how am I going to blow this, or you've gotten the job of your dreams, or something's happening in the world that you want to support? What now? So yeah, whether we face into a void, whether we void and deny, or whether we face into that moment, courageously summon the strength and the clarity to face into them and to do something that's going to lead to not only our best possible future, but the best possible future of our kids, our families, our communities, our nation, our world. That defines the quality of our lives. And it defines our character, and whether we're going to leave a legacy of love, or one of chaos and indifference. Well,
Greg Voisen
you, you know your book, and whether you're contemplating your finitude or not, I think as you I'm going to be 70 in July. So what happens is you start thinking about these things, your legacy, your children, your finances, your everything, there's a lot of things that are questioned, and then you start questioning a lot of times, what is it that I'm doing to make a difference? I know one of those things that you speak about is this book emphasizes the importance of self compassion. Because when you start asking those questions, you can actually also start beating up on yourself, well, why did I do this? Or why didn't I do that? Or what could I do? Exactly. And you talk about courage and gratitude that's in the subtitle of the book. Yep. How can individuals cultivate these qualities in themselves, especially in the face of these societal pressures, and often value toughness, and self criticism? Right. So I think it's important for that event, if people get anything out of this interview, and this is all you get, this is the best thing that you could have. Yeah, exactly.
Dr. Ken Druck
And here's the gym. It's so simple, in some way, and so difficult. It's so challenging, because we've been learning to talk to ourselves as though we have our foot on our throat. Many of us have been doing it. We don't even know we do it. It's like, did I just say that to myself? Did I just do that? Did I just not do anything? It's our foot on her throat. And our foot on her throat is impatience. Harsh self criticism, condemnation, self condemnation, Oh, I'm such an idiot. I'm such a jerk. How could you know? It's it's all those things. It's judgment. It's, it's, it's that harshness, and if we can begin to catch ourselves with our foot on our throat, saying and doing things that come from harsh self criticism, self condemnation, blame, and move our hand down to our heart. With our hand on our heart, it's the hand of self compassion, of kindness, of patience, and understanding that we're all a work in progress that things take time. We don't just, there's no quick fix to certain things, to understanding clarity, to tough love, but with kindness, we need to be tough with ourselves sometimes. But let's do it from kindness, not from here, and not choke our nation. This soft growth, it cuts off air, it cuts off possibility. It's cuts off the ability to be compassionate. Because if we start catching ourselves, I let me let me say that again to my soul. You know, instead of how come you don't know that? It's, How could I not know everything all at once? Yeah,
Greg Voisen
well, you you do some you do some great teaching in this book. And one of them is the really simple little techniques. And one of them is the stops introduce the concepts of stops in the moment of profound change or loss. Okay, we all stop anyway, when that happens. The question is, can you discuss the stop that somebody encounters personally or professionally, whether it's career wise, or it's a loss somewhere, and the process of turning it in to start again, because here's where people, actually, I think fear enters the picture. And worry enters the picture. Another doctor from Del Mar, Dr. Steve Berman, you might actually know him, just wrote a book. And it's actually got the four protocols for stopping worry. And I think this is where we get a lot of this worry from, if something happens, and they go, Oh, my gosh, this is going to change my whole life. Well, it's going to change it for the better if you look at it a different way. Talk about the stops and starting again.
Dr. Ken Druck
Stops are our opportunities, often we we experienced them as a threat or a danger. You know, it's like, Oh, my God, everything I'm lost, I feel empty. And emptiness, by the way, is a natural normal experience that we all have. Sometimes we just feel empty, we haven't filled the cup, we've experienced lostness, or emptiness or unknowingness. Or something happens, something that is an unwelcome change, or an unwelcome loss, or an unwelcome challenge. And these things can stop us in our tracks, we get stuck, we get stalled, we get paralyzed with fear or anxiety. And, and it's an if we have our foot on our throat, it gets worse. If we catch ourselves and say, Wait a minute, how am I talking to myself? How am I approaching this? You know, how can I be talking to you this way, we also got a coaches and counselors and therapists, you know, is because we want somebody to slow us down and help us move that foot off our throat and get our hand on a heart because what is a good therapist and a coach? Do they listen and help us understand that what we're feeling isn't the whole picture, that it's what we're feeling our emotional radar system is working, it's kicking up some understanding about we're having a reaction to something. But that's not where it should stop. Let's talk about that reaction. Let's talk about other ways that we could be reacting. Let's talk about the opportunity side, how might facing into this, give me greater clarity about what I really want, helped me make decisions that are difficult, helped me create the future that I want and then to begin to harvest the future that I already have that I'm not harvesting, that I've learned to take it take for granted. So all those things can be can be the opportunity side of what's coming up of what's bubbling up of what surfacing in our lives in those what now moments, and how do we turn them instead of paralyzing a being paralysis being stuck being stalled and criticizing ourselves and beating ourselves up as though we're in a courtroom with an only a prosecuting attorney and waving admonishing finger producing evidence that we're, you know, we're a terrible person, instead of just acting like we're in a courtroom with a with a prosecutor. We're suddenly in a court and had a The courtroom and in the living room, you know, with a jury, a judge, a defense attorney, we're talking to ourselves with kindness, patience, understanding, and, and producing creative solutions to harvest the opportunity of the moment. And learning to do that takes time, especially when we don't even realize that we've been walking around most of our lives like this.
Greg Voisen
Yeah. And I think what do you stay there about the moment it's important, we really only have the moment me whether you're Buddhist or not, you have to learn to appreciate we all set goals for ourselves in life, but they don't always turn out exactly. So we're attached to particular thing happen in a certain way, you've got to let go. And let be and you the aliveness comes back, and you what I say the awareness brings a lot more aliveness. And when you become super aware of what it is you do to yourself, you become a lot more alive, and also much more valuable to the rest of the world, valuable to yourself and the rest of the world. And, you know, your courageous living code is in there. And you develop the code for courageous living. Which aspect of this code do you find most people probably struggle with? And what particular steps can they take to embrace it more fully? Because it takes, you said it now because you've had your hands on your throat, through a good part of this interview, it takes a lot of courage to let go of your throat. Right? And to open up to ask those important questions versus as as we've seen in therapy, right? Well, I'm gonna brush it under the rug, I've just, I don't want to address this can. I'm gonna lay this over here for now, we're going to flip it and folding power
Dr. Ken Druck
out pattern and or in a closet and think my way out of it. Right? Exactly. None of that works. So let me tell you what I do to start every day. I do a walk, I take the dog, my wife runs, she can still run I've got put a lot of miles on my knees, I do a brisk walk couple of miles. And it's a meditation walk. And I invite people to do this with wherever you do it. You could lay in bed and do it. You could turn on soft music and do it you could go for a walk and do it or anything. But I I asked myself several questions, to have that awakening in every day and to and to be on the path, my code of courageous living. First question I asked myself in the morning, and I invite everybody to consider doing this write down your favorite questions. What's weighing most heavily on my heart today? Not for the rest of my life, not the past. Today, what's weighing most heavily on my heart and spend a few minutes there could be what's happening in the world. how we feel about what's happening in our country, being in the middle of an election year. It could be what could be what's happening as we realize that we're turning 70 like us so profoundly and honestly acknowledged. So whatever it is, let it air out. Let yourself be aware of what's weighing most heavily on your heart. Second question. What's making my heart sing today? Today, what's making my heart sing? You know, I get to be with my grandson. I spent the day yesterday. I have twin grandsons. They're four years old, I got to spend the day with one of them. I get to spend today with the other one. We're going to go on an adventure. And he's going to ask me 1000 questions. Bobby, why do we laser this happened? Why is that? What's that? What's he's in that question asking? And I get to be that grandpa that says, What do you think and draws out? What he's thinking gets to know Him? And then we go from there. So and that's what that's what my heart is singing because I am blessed with that kind of an opportunity. What are you blessed with today? What's the what's making your heart sing today? The third question is the promise I make to myself today. The promise today that I make to myself and it could be to continue eating the food that that's going to allow me to maintain this wonderful weight that I've taken up my post get COVID weight or to to stay healthy, or to stay vibrant, maybe it today, I promised that I'm going to finally render that apology to somebody that I need to apologize to. Or the I Love You to somebody that I need to tell that I love whatever it is And the last question might be something like, like you just said before. Today, there's an opportunity to let go of what a little bit more let go of what a little bit more when you're around, what am I lugging around in this life that I need to let go of? What do I need to let go, and people could formulate a lot of other questions that awaken us, before the day even really starts, it's the entry into the day, that awakens us to the greater possibilities of each day, each day that we're not going to get back each day that represents an opportunity to clear that path forward, and move forward into the life that we want to be more of the life that we want to be living with the patience, and the understanding that we're all work in progress, that sometimes things take a while to unwind, right, while to, to cultivate qualities in ourselves. And so for me, the the code of the first step in the code of Living Courageously is honest self assessment. It's moving on that continuum from denial and avoidance, over to the side of opportunity, honest self assessment, being truthful, telling ourselves the truth. Because moving from the truth, into the into our day, into our week, into our lives, into the our relationships, into what's happening in our communities in our country, moving into the truth of that is where the greatest possibilities are. Well,
Greg Voisen
I appreciate those questions. And I would just add one more thing. And that would be that you add a sense of gratitude that you woke up in the morning, and you had the ability to do the things that you're doing today. So gratefulness is a big life if
Dr. Ken Druck
question.
Greg Voisen
Okay, and then audio that I went out. And I did away
Dr. Ken Druck
with things that I that are the gratitude, that swelling in me today to express and to acknowledge. And that's, that's beautiful. And sometimes it's, you know, there can be so many other great questions, everybody's different. So I invite everybody to create the question that really speaks most directly to you to what's happening in your life, in your heart, in your relationships, the opportunities or the threats, to do that risk assessment that that helps all of us make better decisions.
Greg Voisen
Well, and and I would encourage my listeners to this came up for me on Sunday, actually, you know, we often time get just anxious about to do lists. And I said one small little thing is, don't call it a to do list, call it an opportunity list. I love that. So every one of the things that are is on your to do list that you think you have to do today, looked at every one of those as an opportunity, an opportunity to get something out of the way to move something forward. Right, exactly.
Dr. Ken Druck
Are they here? New? That's another question from here. The pressure. It's like, Come on, get that list done. We'll look at those items from last week. What's your problem? All right. Your week, your failure? Yeah. Well, the admonishing all the criticism, the self condemnation that we spend on today, on those on those to do lists, move the question down here. It's like, what's my opportunity? And what? How can I accept that I'm not going to get everything done today that some things will get done tomorrow, right? Things I need? Or the next week or the next week? Some things it's okay to get it done next week, or next month. Right. greatest question for people who are grieving, who are such high achievers, and are used to getting so much done, they've taken a hit, they've suffered a horror, a life changing loss. And they no longer have the luxury of being impatient and demanding with themselves, or pleasing everybody. There's such tight ease, tight please, every everything to everybody else. And instead, they have to really take care of themselves. Because grief is it is an opportunity to learn greater self compassion in the middle of the deepest sorrows. And it's to take care of ourselves. So stopping and saying, You know what, I need to I'll get back to that person in a couple of months. Well, I'll get around to that I need to put that on hold. Or I need to take a sabbatical from that in my life. Because I'm gonna need time to to process the sorrows. These changes. The adjustments I'm going to need to be making in my life and my children are gonna need to Good, or my family is going to need to be making an error.
Greg Voisen
You're saying you're saying to take time for yourself quality time, and I and I think you know what, this whole self discovering growth on this book, this podcast called inside personal growth, we focus on personal growth and wellness and spirituality and business. There's four kinds of genres. But, you know, in how we go on, there's this strong theme of continuous self discovery and growth that you've been talking about it for the last 2530 minutes. And I get that, and you share a recent moment of self discovery or growth. That surprised you, even after all your years of personal growth and development work. Plus you sharing all these in group counseling sessions and counseling sessions has been a great psychologist, doing all the work you've done, the speaking you've done. What's What's Up for Ken?
Dr. Ken Druck
Oh, I have a I, you know, the opportunities in this life are remarkable. And I'm going to give you two quick ones. Number one is one that you're experiencing the awakening into the seventh decade of life. And, and you're and you're suddenly you are 60 years old, or 50 years old, or 40 or 30. I love that. And when did that happen? Or 70 Or 80 are like some friends that I have that are that are in their mid 80s are turning or turning 90 And they're going when did this happen? Where they are? Or what is what how can I awakened to the opportunity if this what now moment in my life so so though that's in general, it's the it's the opportunity of the things that come to mind. Like one of the things that comes to mind when you turn 75 Or when you turn 80? Is the what if question. What have I left a legacy of chaos of I put my house in order. And you're going oh my god, I haven't put my house in order. What? What happens? All these books and these files in this mess? Is clutter in my given my daughter and my wife and my son in law a year of work to unclutter and to figure out what to do with all this stuff? Or am I going to put my house in order. And when we don't know how much time we have, when we get to a certain age, there is an awakening of it's time to put my house in order. So right and that became hiring somebody who was great at uncluttering and getting them to sit with me and go through files, decades and awards and this and that and figure out in three piles what to do, this goes to the trash, this goes to recycle or to where to get used again. And this gets saved as sacred. But for a specific person or group or whatever. And that's number one. Number two is that my mom passed a number of years ago, and a couple of weeks couple. It's actually a month before she passed. I visited her I would she lived in Encinitas at sea crest village. And I know and I would go visit and we'd have lunch once or twice a week and I was visiting her. And I said, Mom, I gotta I gotta go. And she. And she looked at me and she pulled close, closer than she had ever been to me that I can ever remember. And she said, Do you know how much how grateful I am? For you in my life ever since your father died? You been there? At every step when I needed you most. You call me every morning and you say how's my favorite mother? You know, you always thought you weren't you've been such a beloved son. And we both had tears running and, and it was and I and I had to get to an appointment and I'm going because I'm in this very busy time of life. The mom we're going to need to go in 15 minutes and you know, and so on. And we said our goodbyes and I got in that car to drive away.
Dr. Ken Druck
I turned on the radio, Greg. What the hell was I doing turning on the radio?
Dr. Ken Druck
And I turned off the radio and I said What am I doing? Is my receiver broken? I was unable to receive the love that a mother that any son would be so proud and swelling with gratitude to receive that it's I almost don't have space in here to receive the love that somebody just tried to give me. Other tried to give me how many times in my life have I deflected the love that somebody was trying to give me maybe it wasn't wrapped with a certain bow or didn't ever Note with it or it wasn't said in the way that I best received love. Who knows. But have I done this, maybe my receivers broke. So since my mom's passing, which is now a couple of years, I have been working on fixing my receiver. When I give a speech now I realized when I would give a speech, I would run off the stage, I'd say thank you, everybody, you know, and I'd smile and I, we've stayed. Now, I put my hand on my heart. And that's my way of signaling myself, to take that deep breath and to receive the gratitude because I've just poured my heart out for an audience. And they're trying to say thank you to me. And I want to receive that thank you their gratitude. And I do that, and I'm learning how to, with all that I've learned and all that I've done, I'm learning how to receive graciously, the love, the good deeds, the good faith, the goodwill, all the goodnesses the good things that people are doing in the world. You know, he we watch people right now who are trying to assume noble moral leadership in the world. Well, I've started spending a lot more time supporting them. I had a blessed meeting with a guy named Jamie Raskin. You know, one of our incredible visionary leaders, I met Amy Klobuchar cut three, four weeks ago, I think she's a remarkable woman. You know, I've spent time with a guy named Adam Schiff, who's a senator, brilliant, Senator, I think. So I'm expressing appreciation for those people that I believe are creating our visionary leaders who are creating the kind of world that I want my grandkids to grow up and where there's opportunity. And we're treating each other with kindness, not the judgment. And when people Yep, well,
Greg Voisen
with all the divisiveness that's occurred as a result of, you know, instant on media, on social media and everything we've got it, it's, I get that it's easy for any generation to get caught up in to the challenges associated with dealing with that just on a regular basis, because it's everywhere, it's always on, and you you taking time to put your hand over your heart, the reciprocity, is really, really very important. And I'm probably much like you, it's like, you know, with your mother, you were like, ready to move on to the next. So I've got to go to the next I gotta go to the next. And taking that time to reflection. And I said, I asked you what's up for Ken. And I think the big discovery for you is just slowing down. And being able to receive that and understand that for many, many years, people have been giving it to you, but have you actually taken the time to actually have the wonderment, the wonderment of receiving it. And that brings me to this last, last question, burn to wrap up our podcast. You know, every generation, I look at the children behind my kids behind me. And then the generations that that are to come grandchildren, I have two grandchildren. What message do you hope the readers especially the younger ones, are going to take from how we go on to empower them through their own life challenges and their potential losses in life. What do you want to leave these readers with?
Dr. Ken Druck
I want to I want to leave them with the idea that some parts of being a person are difficult, are really hard. There are some sweet parts to this ride, some miracles and gifts and blessings and opportunities. Here we are flying through space. And we're not just in the universe on a planet. Neil deGrasse Tyson has told us now there are universes out Yeah. So we're flying. We're in the middle of this great mystery. But this amazing miracle. We've been given life. We can be conscious. We can look at ourselves in the mirror we can improve ourselves. We can help support the next generation is going to be standing on our shoulders to become the better version of themselves to become more civil. War understanding more Kinder, and more aware that sometimes we turn the fear that we have into othering people to making them have a different race or racism or anti semitism, or misogyny because they're women, or they're men, there are other, the people who are different, have so much more in common with us than is different. And even those people who disagree with who they should you should vote for, for the next president, they still look want the best for their children for their country, for their community, most of them do. And I think I would leave them with the idea that to please treat yourself, you're growing, you're learning, you don't have everything figured out. And maybe you never will. But allow yourself to grow and to ripen, whether you're ripening into your teens. Whether you're like our grant kids, Greg, you're right to childhood, whether you're ripening into your 20s 30s 40s 50s midlife. The later years, you're in the back nine of life, whatever it is, allow yourself and treat yourself with kindness and patience. And understanding because how you treat yourself is how you're going to treat other people and the world around you.
Greg Voisen
Yeah, and I, and I love that title, how we go on, and the courage and gratitude that it takes. Because there are times in our lives, and we're gonna have to stop and reassess things. And you're sad and new found courage. That's right. And you've given people in this book, the opportunity to look at that, no matter what stage of life you're in, it doesn't matter if you're, you know, you're a teenager reading this book, or you're somebody who's 70 or 80 years old reading this book, there's opportunity, everywhere opportunity to look at things from a different perspective, and a different way to view your world. And I think as soon as you open up to the wonderment of that, you open up into a whole new world of being able to say, oh, there is more that I could do. And there's also more that I can receive, or myself, so I feel loved and honored. And whatever it might be that you need. And I think that reciprocity part is really, really, really important. And Ken, I want to thank you for being on inside personal growth, spending time, sharing your knowledge, your wisdom, and your ability to reach people through your spoken language, you're awesome at staring into the camera and getting people to actually pay attention. So for all of you who are listening still to this podcast, go to Ken DRock att.com, or go to how we go on.com either place, you can learn more about this book, more about Ken's work. He also has a foundation for his daughter, you've created an agenda drakh Foundation, right? Still there.
Dr. Ken Druck
It's the foundation is not the gender drug foundation anymore. I have the years I outsourced it to somebody else to raise a million and a half dollars a year. Okay. I'm writing books and meeting people and speaking and helping with different causes. But Greg, I want to before we stop, thank you. Because you are doing I get your information. Every week, I see what you're doing. You are a visionary leader in our community, and in all the places you reach with the quality of the programming that you are, and have been for so many years, providing to all of us and I want to thank you. You're one of the people I would think today. Thank you.
Greg Voisen
Well, there are so many books we can read, right? And I only touch on a very small portion of them. But I hope the books that I touch on, people take the time because the only difference between who you are today is the people you hang around with and what you read. And so if you really want to become a master at your skill, or even have a better life, read more and hang out with better people. And if you're
Dr. Ken Druck
not a reader, you can listen to this bit
Greg Voisen
of head learned audit. That's right. That's right, either either way you could get this content. And I think the key is continual learners love this. And those are the people that listen to this show. So please, go get the book. Can you hold it up again? We'll do we'll kind of end the podcast with that he's got that book. Go get a copy of how we go on self compassion, courage and gratitude for the past. Forward. Dr. Ken Dirac thank you so much.
Dr. Ken Druck
And then by the way, there's there's me and Jack the bag not just the author but got to have the author's dog. That's
Greg Voisen
right Jack is I got two little dogs myself. I'm not leaping right over there. We all love our paths and Windows paths pass on. Hopefully we'll adopt other paths into our I want to show you something quickly.
Dr. Ken Druck
This is the kindest thing that anybody or other pet ah, that is endless. This is this beautiful.
Greg Voisen
That is cool Bean was his
Dr. Ken Druck
name was our dog, the our other boxer that died and sadly, that says that kind.
Greg Voisen
It is really sweet. It's very sweet. Well, you take care of yourself. And Namaste to you. Thank you for being on my show. It's always an honor.
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Inside Personal Growth with Greg Voisen · Podcast 1100: Napoleon Hill’s Guide to Achieving Your Goals with Don GreenWelcome back to Inside Personal Growth! My good friend, Don Green is my returning guest for this podcast. Don who has been on the show several times is back to promote his latest book entitled: “Napoleon Hill’s Guide to Achieving Your Goals: The Four Proven Principles of Success.”
As the CEO of the Napoleon Hill Foundation, Don Green is no stranger to the world of personal development and success. With decades of experience studying the principles of achievement and success, Don brings forth a wealth of wisdom and insight in his book, offering readers actionable strategies to unlock their full potential and turn their dreams into reality.
At the heart of “Achieving Your Goals” lies a powerful message: the journey to success begins with a clear vision and unwavering determination. In this book, Don emphasizes four cornerstone principles for success that Hill has identified through decades of research. Learn how to incorporate these principles into your own life to unlock your full potential. Throughout the book, Don shares practical techniques and time-tested principles to help readers overcome obstacles, cultivate a success mindset, and stay focused on their goals. From the power of visualization and positive affirmations to the importance of persistence and resilience, “Achieving Your Goals” serves as a comprehensive guidebook for anyone striving to reach new heights of success.
In this interview, we also talked about his other book entitled: ”Napoleon Hill’s Your Millionaire Mindset: A Practical Guide to Increase Your Personal Wealth”
Are you ready to embark on your journey to success? Pick up your copy of “Achieving Your Goals” and Millionaire Mindset today and let Don Green be your guide to unlocking your true potential and achieving your wildest dreams. To know more about The Napoleon Hill Foundation, please visit their website on this link. You may also click on this link for Don Green’s information and books.
Thanks and happy listening!
You may also refer to the transcripts below for the full transciption (not edited) of the interview.
Interview Transcipt -Not EditedEmailDownloadNew TabGreg Voisen
Well, welcome back to Inside Personal Growth, I have what I would consider a very good friend over even though we've only met, I think once or twice in our life, but I feel like he's second father to me is Don Green. He is the executive director of the Napoleon Hill Foundation. And, Don, how're you doing today?
Don Green
I'm great. I'm great, Greg, it's just good to be on your show. I know, you got a tremendous following. And as I helped a judge to do a book one time, I mean, I he wanted a view until it got him to put on Amazon. It was no but we published in and I told him, You gotta go the newspapers, you got to do get reviews, you got to go to the corners, you got the Lions Club, go the church, tell people about your book. And, of course, typical people, I spend all this time writing a book fair lineup bite, but if they don't know you got to book they're not gonna buy it's Amazon. The last check, they got over 8 million books. And if Don and Greg says down does a book, it was the only one Rosie the only cop is gonna get bolts when we buy. But well,
Greg Voisen
I, I love that. I mean, do your what you're saying is if you don't promote your book, it's never gonna get out there. Now we've got two books here. One is called the millionaire mindset with Don green. And the other one which struck my fancy was achieving your goals. We're still at the first part of the year and people out there. Still always wrestling with goals and goal setting. And achieving is always something that people can do. And so we're going to put links to both of these books. But I'm gonna tell them some of my listeners a bit about you, Don, because not everybody knows you. He's the Executive Director and CEO of Napoleon Hill Foundation. He leverages his extensive experience and personal investment banking industry to share his secrets as to why some individuals succeed financially and others remain in debt, live paycheck to paycheck, we're failed to build enough wealth to live comfortably in retirement. Don tells lots of great stories. He's been with Napoleon Hill Foundation. Now for how many years Don? Wandering for 34 years. So, you couldn't have a better person. And he's co-authored. Or I should say, I just had Greg Reid on here on the Secrets of Happiness. He did a book with many of the authors that Sharon Lightner, Greg Reed, and the list goes on and on who don has actually co-authored with or actually, they co-authored with Napoleon Hill Foundation, it's a go to the website, we're gonna put a link to the website, that the Napoleon Hill Foundation website. There, you can learn more about the books, you can learn more about the courses, you can learn more about everything. It's a great website, and I really appreciate you taking the time to be on. Let's talk about goals. Could you share with us why Napoleon Hills teachings continue to resonate with audiences around the world, even decades after they were first introduced? Because here we are in 2024. And Napoleon Hills Think and Grow Rich goes back to what year was it, that it was actually published first time 1937 Though ere we 1937 to 2024. And it still resonates with people and it still is one of the best sellers that Amazon tell us why you think his teachings have continued to sustain the test of time and especially around definite of purpose and achieving one's goals.
Don Green
While say to young, he just hit on it, he was just he was bothered by growing up or some people rich and others not your course. It the Talmud he was doing the books that could gorge and more success was inner depression and so forth. But I think he discovered Now there's other people before young black Orson Swett Marden 1859, wrote a book self helps psychology. I think, to me, I think it's a first self help book, and he read it, or Swett Marden read it, not a book other people with gasoline which set was Samuel smiles, British, but he interviewed people and I can remember some of them he interviewed, they see people It stuck with some alone time. But he didn't do the interviews, he rose stores. But he'll went out and visited those people 101 and and basically as snow, what they did, or some of them did it without taking some bottom. We have sended it more. But he noticed certain traits that they that they seem to run. And I'll say the pressures are kind of like gravity. If you visit your grandpa over the weekend to you about 40 or 50 feet of mirror type jewelry toe ball, you might get hurt. It's called gravity
Greg Voisen
wagon. You know, it's interesting you say this because I was on I now, Vern Harnish hasn't been on here, but he talked about the Rockefeller habits. Now, Napoleon Hill interviewed Rockefeller, right. Yep. And, and I have the book here, actually. And this, I'm going to show it to mastering the Rockefeller habits. It's by Vern Harnish. It's not by what I'm gonna say, by Rockefeller. But you know, Napoleon Hill was great at synthesizing what others knew in to his work. And that was the key to it. And in this achieving your goals guide, he discussed four proven principles of success. And what I'd like you to do if you could give our law audience a brief overview of the principles and why they're so crucial to goal achievement.
Don Green
Well, as just some studying this is what separates people, and one of them is the verb for his personal initiative. I got those sound wallet Business Award one year, and that's the only time tech does I've just did an interview for you. And I was named Mr. Was to Mr. County, about a third of the local paper. I don't know why they warned at an interview, they wanted a picture and told my citizen some a picture when I was in high school, maybe better to paper. But yeah, initiative, I've got a sound Walton had said, we'll all work a lock, well, more good stock. And I got a plaque. I got his book, and, and so forth. And in his book, we talk about personal initiative. He feels since his stores, you know, Sam did, and one of the stores while they're supermarkets, they were some trace your stuff around the cash register. He told the manager said you need to clean that up. And he said, Oh, we got to take our combined knife to loot and that Sam Don't say a word, he goes back to the back, he has one of the he'll refer burn, and it does small sound comes out to her and cleans up what needs to be done, which his initiative, his personal niche to is simply doing what needs to be done without thinking well as hell don't want to obey somebody else, or let them do it. A personal initiative is separate, seeing something that needs to be done. And he'll said that the two type of people never succeeds. wants can only do what you're told and earns, got him do what he's told, neither one of them was going to succeed. And personal initiative just means if you come in a cement for it, he picked up you don't say, well, we got a janitor who got what got his we got that. And it's to me, it's so simple. I mean, if you want to get ahead, a guy interviewed me and he's just tremendous donor, and I'll mention his name could be private person, but he's worth ungodly amount of money. And he hired me not to 75 and I work in Finance business about probably 75 a week, I guess as to that, because I started over 15 an hour. He started by equity, he's 29 years old. Someone gave me about 90, they told him, he just opened a bank, he needs some help people at new the new Atlantic business and so forth. You could just take a deposit if you're gonna loan money. So he called me and I was about her 15 minutes away a major financial offers. And he said, Don, I've started up a new bank and said I need some help and lending. And, and he told me, the bandstand bit recommended him and, and he said, I'm gonna interview if he'd have an interest. I said, Well, she um, I always thought I'd end up in banking, but she never had the opportunity come to me, but I've tried to prepare myself by getting a degree innovative history breweries and studying finance and so for and he said, Come over one day, this week, narrow view. And I said to him, I could come over serve your Sunday. You can't come through the week. I said, no, these people have played my education. I said, I'm going warm places if I stayed with them, and but I'm always looking for opportunity. So we raised our chemo, we're over sorry. Here's what they said he read the same books. Your dad was a coal miner. He said, Don, you do the lakes to one day, it probably won't matter. Do it for a week, it'll matter. But I promise you, I promise you dedicate fuel work hard and all the people around you. One of these days you have your Moby's success, most of we're only dreamed about, and I won't tell you how much but this guy's this guy was I had lunch with him two weeks ago, this guy can rot and be adored chicks. And I remember I remember what he said, it was 49 years ago, it could have been five minutes ago that I took that latest and of course, I was already practicing a voc Bozo was called me home I shot for the, for the attitude and, and in. But
Greg Voisen
I think one of the things don is and that's a great story. By the way, thank you for telling that. That same individual has a definite nearness of purpose. And there's always a purpose, when you look at people that are setting goals. I remember Steven Kotler being on here, most CEOs or entrepreneurs, they're curious. And then after they're curious, they basically have defined a vision and a purpose in their values and their goals. Now the goals come usually after someone has found that purpose, why the people always say, right, this is the statements and been said so many times, the two greatest days in your life are the day you were born in the day you realize why you're here. And I think that goals that are actually achieved, are in alignment with my values. And the reason why I'm here, which is why Napoleon Hill talks about in his book, The Definiteness of Purpose, speak with us with if you would, because that is a driving force behind you behind me. People ask me they say Why do you still do this show? You've done 1100 podcasts, you've been doing this 17 years, and you never take a salary? And I say, because I have a nonprofit that helps the homeless and Ukrainian refugees, and that's why I do it. And they're going well, then that's your purpose. And I said, that's one of my purposes. Yeah. And so to speak about that, if you would,
Don Green
well, the effect could still search even even the Bible. I can't quote diverse, but the Bible says we must find our purpose. And if you will, oh, Rick, what you read were orange book. Last time I looked at sold 45 million copies. It was a purpose driven life. Right. And it was amazing how he sold sold his sold his books, but we have to have something to get up. I said some people talk about purpose and talk better. I talked about the four piece shot over purpose. And then of course, if we ever purpose for you, or do you got to make some plans. They don't have big good plans. You always change the plans. He'll say that the main thing several purpose in getting started, you don't always say to played into it for no good. But the Bible tells us we will build a build, we must first sit down figure a plan. We got to have a plan. And then I add to that patient, night award crock water crosser said nothing great was ever in, done without enthusiasm. I would call it patient. And the last one is persistence. And if you'll follow those four p's and we have a worthwhile purpose, and option plans, I know we have been good plans was to have a passion of what you want to do. And you have persistence. You want to amaze all people with what you can what you can accomplish. And I agree.
Greg Voisen
I would agree with that persistence element the last one, and I love the four P's per purpose plan. Persistence, and what was the other one I missed? Got a shin patch, passion. And you know, they always talk about the bricklayers laying the building the church, right, you've heard that story a zillion times. And it's the it's the bricklayers that say I'm building the cathedral that literally have the purpose behind them. They're not just laying the bricks, right? And I think many of my listeners have heard that story. But yet put three different guys on a job. And if you got a guy who's just laying bricks for an hourly wage, versus someone who can actually see that cathedral being built, and he's actually building ethic, it's the theory draw, then you got somebody has a definite a purpose. I do know though that and I think some of our listeners, including you and me, we've gotten stuck sometimes. And I always like to address this because goal setting is a fundamental aspect of success. But what advice from somebody at three years like yourself who's been through it all would you have for individuals who are struggling Same with setting their goals and achieving their goals effectively. What do you think might be getting in the way? Or do you believe that it's they have such an attachment to how it's supposed to turn out? That they should really just accept? what has actually happened? What would you say?
Don Green
Well, I think he'd be sure to go back to childhood, the poor development purpose. You know, you grow up as a smoking, for example, you love animals, and you start to think what you'd like to do them you love animals, maybe it a vendor, and we'll get into your mind that you want. You want to have Bednarek become a vendor, or a grooming a dog grooming, business or whatever. But I think if you stop and think you can thank sup nurtured joy, do it. I said, so many people hate your job, Greg, hate you know, they look for Friday, and they hate Mondays. Don't do it on your break. You don't like what you're doing. We don't have slaves on board, find somebody or do and quit. Quit complaining. Because when you start complaining by Confucius, you're just writing yourself with ticket to finger. You got to find something you enjoy. And I'll tell you how the purpose of a kick army comes to you by Heaven, peace of mind. In other words, I have no more animosity towards you, I mean, jealousy, hatred, or whatever, all those negative things with the positive things into our mind, we'll get positive results. We have negative things feed in our subconscious, we can expect negative results. And now they can share pretty much pretty much as samples. And if we can, we can do that. It all comes down to Zig Ziglar said how bad you how bad do you want it? Because when we start making excuses, then we're in trouble. Because you always make an excuse you're better to sit and outline you're not competent. Some were for jail protects District Two, they still have opportunities out there to war. Oh, no, no, no, no, no, you know, good. You might as well reframe for Bichette are awkward. Sure, all day, you may be comfortable, but it's all gonna take you over.
Greg Voisen
Well speak about that Zig Ziglar I always remember him because I used to go to his talks, he would say not your attitude that determines your altitude, it's your attitude. And I think attitude is one of those things because when people have a challenging attitude, persistence becomes very challenging for them to hold on to. Because they they'll say oh, somebody else did it to me somebody else is to blame for this whatever we as you and I know nobody else is to blame for anything other than ourselves. And this comes down to your own self study and your ability to learn this important what would you tell somebody right now who's out there and is maybe given up? They they aren't as persistent. That was one of your keys. And there's they're going through the pity party of woe is me. And they need an uplift. They if they came into your office today and sat down right next to you What would you say to somebody like that? Well,
Don Green
I can give them good I'm give them a good example. Oh, I was up in Pennsylvania if you remember. Charlie tremendous Jones and Greg greet was was upset and he asked me to help Burt do a book and get him some recognition and I started story from ru Darby on three facing goal and persistence and goal was Greg and we never really got it to Dottie complete and, and no Sharon Lechter would have been more to work with us so Jeremy we just did this thing together. And I said I don't have time for the interview. So we got started on the thing and it was cautious surfing from gold the man quit in history we go but if we quit and and we don't stick with something and other than we did ever go out close we are hidden by just will a ball in our world overwhelming the people is pretty simple. It's persistent. Is his one said his or her results. You can you can always you can always quit and say Well, Greg told me I shouldn't try did I didn't have the right education. I didn't know nobody or the misspelled spouse told me when ever but Napoleon would say don't tell them show him and in again it comes down to Woodward renewed warning. You can't jump from one thing to another and put a little bit as well. And even more back at and go to somebody else and go somewhere else. It's if you really Steve Jobs his autobiography, MC Galra Walker, aka Senado i pronounced his name, but he wrote two books he considered geniuses are our top. We're not limited to our DaVinci we're not would have been Franklin Warren was Einstein in the poor, who was Steve Jobs. And fact is he says Steve Jobs said, don't you think you ought to do Kubelik only and Walter told him, Well, maybe you're a little older than six months later, he found Steve Jobs. Founder of Apple was headed, patriotic, catered, he called him. But he set up all the qualities he in, the one he put the most emphasis on was persisters. Washington had an ad that he wanted to do he persist that he may have had to get Greg he be able to get all kinds of playful bakers who want him your wants to put something together. But the main thing once you stick with it, and that sarees
Greg Voisen
everything, I think the most important thing is they don't quit, you know, I've been noted by my wife that when something has to get done, just the simple, small example, around the house, you know, I will continue to persist until I figure it out, or if it's a computer problem, or whatever it might be. And I think not giving up and succeeding at overcoming a challenge is really, really important. And I think there's some people out there listening, that may have encountered fear or self doubt, and in their journey towards success. How would you talk to those individuals, to help them overcome the obstacles and to maintain the confidence that they need, and their abilities to succeed? Because, in essence, if there's anything that gets in the way of our success, it's our own stinking thinking. It's our own mental attitude. We can overcome a lot of things as human souls on this planet and with the help of God and with the help of Ayers spirit and understanding that we're being guided along the way but you got to have a belief in something greater than yourself. It isn't all it is no man is an island right down. Or
Don Green
salutely you have to develop a belief in yourself because I tell you what I learned a long time ago when status didn't say appeal when things didn't work out, right. I took him as the lesson Wang tried again on October you wanna I making T shirts he had them all off to show for and I was always interested in art and a live art K draw street lamp and I clicked it art and good some good stuff. I went to the Gaza auction that wrote the book crew today makes me I would have it was pretty good drywall to pick up some of the other dots seated and interested in and whatever. And in sometimes times things didn't turn out right and one in particular. I did. It was a couple of Sony Kenyon's. I had a friend who was in World War Two Honey, what do you got? He was named CIA is he of what to call them? Then? Best if way people work for her Winston, the joar big Jorah New York City and he collected some Russian arts by this guy uj komanoff He did a discreet save for world peace and pretty famous for Russia. I made his steps on to the University of Virginia or a bit overboard 20 some odd years. And he was in he told me baby step four. We've been an artist. And so what's interesting week shades who messes what? Anyway, I started buying his paintings. It reasonable somebody ah he'll grade him up now. So I sold some Kip. Some steel got some warnings into chanters Owens, but below my friendship Eurocom Sal rar once you sin, he's gonna be in Bethesda Maryland coming up a few months and I did and we went up there immediately. It was wine and cheese and social gathering got all this I got about 10 Russian Payton's into catalog I'm sitting are you to make big money out of your day demonic I just love the process. We'll kiss while I agree some of them thanks so listen when I hear the no and don't you thought you're smart. How do you quit do an art when I shut up did I put I should have said fist sidepiece no break 10,000 orders shipped back to me I did put a minimum in the contract because I will now sign a contract to pay up 50% and so forth but but I didn't in you didn't usual ordered as I get but I had so I had sold to south division where the places I never needed doesn't like it because it always done well. And so I didn't quit doing no art. I just made it sure next time I said so rather off. I determined what the least amount I take for it I put down to contract at 444 chip to pain. So you know I just continue to listen learn and just laugh it off. I made notes if you read some don't turn out right you got like I said when Why learn something, man? You don't have slack it. You put, you can learn from yourself you mindless I put my hand on a hot stove and get burned. And I'll go over dude no more. I see Greg put his hand over watch don't get burned. I don't have to repeat it at work. We can learn from our own things. Don't turn it on we learn from others because shit Wow was young Chimo they're rolling or Wei Lian. Yeah. He said, Now he said in the Bible, they got to the story. So you know, I love her until he said notice to behold, he said, they got these stories and look at it this guy did. He said, he said, they got stores are doing like this guy did. And he said, No, I got stores here that are don't do like his cow did and know where two people got in trouble. He said, Now what I'm doing is fair round about you in a booth. Make sure you're the good example. Not too bad example.
Greg Voisen
Right. Right. Right. Right. And and I totally agree with that. And you know, you're someone that along the way, you know, which is why I believe you're so successful, successful as you are, is you're a master at building relationships. And one of the things that hill emphasizes in this book is collaboration in building meaningful relationships that's emphasized. How could the listeners leverage this power of collaboration, to accelerate their progress toward their goals, because I will carry you for Lou. I've been doing this show for 18 years. And like I said, 11 on her podcast, and it's all about relationships. I am someone who builds relationships with, hopefully everybody on me, hopefully they like me as much as I like to have. But the point is, is that you can't get anywhere. Unless the people you like people and people like you. What would you tell our listeners out there who have or are challenged by figuring out how to collaborate because the world today isn't about competition. It's about collaboration. And if you don't learn how to collaborate, you're, you're gonna be broke.
Don Green
Well, Greg did an interview with a newspaper. Just so cute 30 minutes before I started this with you. And I challenged myself a note to the gods first name was Kim. And I made a note before I leave her Damco Bailey two books and also is a my phone contacts in the notes section of people I recall sir, or whatever. I'll put a note in there. So I know what book awesome shall go repeat the thing. But when we have a chase to do somebody a favor don't do it. We the one gets cheated with cheating or sevens. And we never ever know where it would never know where it mounts to. I mean, I could tell you store it for sure at historic food store. I got one I'm looking to go scripture, Burgin awards from the Persian Rajouri. He called me years ago and wanted to talk and I had to, I had someone with me, I told my assistant, me it gave me my cell phone because I'm late if you manage and he gave me he called me, he said, Mr. Mr. Don, you listen to my story. You still owe me Mr. doll. I said, Sure, appalling. And he said he's in Nigeria at 14 years old on the streets, got a hold of $5 Boston new Sandow robbery Soto and didn't spend the money grew so old Bulger Jusco sold and then went to Hong Kong bought me and the suit so someone recognized him now for him sell drugs, and don't we store it as it is, that's depressing reading. And, and he said he read success. So positive mental attitude, Debbie Klymit Solon, the bow video published nought to 60. And I said yes to Mr. Stone wrote a couple of his own books. I didn't know that he said, Misha gone. I said, Yeah, I wrote blade achieves success. This Merivale I said, you've talked to Nate over the phone, send her your email, your address, but a bell to her not go in that out. I'll send you them to books. And I did. I don't know why much me thought will urge I guess Phenix nigiri. at it. Two or three weeks went by. And he called. He said Dawn, Mr. Dog. I've been in every combin has gone through North Vietnam, North Korea sell malaria drugs, it said and I got back to him two books. You said he's gonna send two books to me. He said they was our I said Paulick novel mother told me to tell somebody you won't do something. You'd be sure you do it. I told you. He said I want to warn you so Lonnie, I said folly word nonprofit, but now we will accept your money. He said I'm gonna worry the $100,000 It won't be $100,000 And when I got the money, I sell the phone number and I called him and I said, folly you love Napoleon you're so good Eurocom the United States I said we're not where he's born I got oldest archives in books and so oh yeah he said my daughter Nielsen Merle and I come visit her yes as I said will you go to come visit me but just let me know what your comments I'll be sure to be there. He said I'll we'll it when I come off bring you $150,000 We're gonna make a quarter million dollars. Wow,
Greg Voisen
what a great story. What a great story. It's
Don Green
nothing from it, but they have been. They've been auger is this is also that that the gold table for
Greg Voisen
privacy, your foundation is definitely worthy of the donation that for certain and I want to let my listeners know just go to Napoleon Hill and you can learn more about the foundation and the good work that Don green is doing. Now. One of the concepts that's talked about in this book in almost every book that Napoleon Hill has, is this concept of masterminding it's kind of central to a Napoleon Hill's teachings. And, you know, when I was growing up in in the selling business, it was it was prevalent, everybody was starting masterminds, I don't see as much of it. Today. Unfortunately, I see it in different ways. There's BNI, and all these other kinds of organizations where people might have tried to do what Napoleon did. How can individuals create and benefit from their own mastermind groups to support their personal and professional growth because there couldn't be anything better than masterminding? A great. I agree.
Don Green
He learned that from the last election of our day Carnegie, Andrew Carnegie, Andrew Carnegie, he knows a 12 year old comes over from Scotland is 12 year old he went to work for $1.10 a week in a textile place. But are they currently Edwards he had the boys book story. But but he did, he had this idea of buying up the steel belts and consolidate and of course, they thought he would buy them love but would raise your prices. I think he cut the price about 90% or something. But he didn't steal he did go to England and study it. But he cumulated these other cube right and all these other people, he got what he thought was the best chemists and accountants and lawyers and so forth. And he said his only job was to maintain harmony in a group no worse, in fact is a chemist who was from France. He couldn't get along with other people and he was a high price chemists he let him go he did all this disband his mastermind group got someone to replace him but each one of them contributed and course as I tell people if you use the poor you and he'll is a definition of mash man is not a bunch of guys sit around Turkey Bertie pizza town how great here are a it's a it's a group of working in harmony for a common cause no, originally the US steel or to start a nonprofit to help the homeless like you've done or whatever. And so they certain rules, right if you use his use his thing, but nothing great was ever achieved by one person without him. For example, I like to use Van Gogh because I you know, he died at age 39 up late by suicide. So one painting out a to a brother in law, and he had nobody marketing for him. what he'd done was was paint paint paint. And when he died he's already worth billions of dollars today. But if you'd had a good little guy after light gray cone or marker didn't ship or you know he'd been living in luxury and and what have you, but he never got that he was so concentrated know what he was doing. But there's more to it and pain to dislike it more to six foot book, they just ran it. You got to ask somebody to get marketed and promoted thing, whatever. So
Greg Voisen
it was interesting you say that because I was just talking with a young woman who wrote a book through Wiley and Wiley published it. But at the same time, she said, Well, I'm not getting much support from Wiley and this isn't a down play here. This is just the reality of life when you write a book a lot of times, and she said, you know, process wasn't bad, but I don't understand why it's not selling. And I said because you've got to get out there and promote it. While he's not helping you do it. You got to do it yourself. So you know being on my podcast, that's gonna help but you got to be out a lot of podcasts and talk to a lot of people to sell a lot of books. And that brings me to a point in this interview Don, where I want to talk about the importance of continuous learning. I I think that when you can help somebody, look, I gave her a bunch of tips. And I said, you might want to try this might work. Try that you might want to try this. She was taking notes. Like for a firm viously. She goes, Wow, I wish I had met you before because you're giving me such great ideas to market my book. And I said, Well, I've been doing this 17 years, maybe I know a little bit about getting a book. And I want to talk about this dolphin improvement. What are some practical ways our listeners can invest in their personal development journey? And slash, helping them achieve their goals? What? What would you tell him? You just told me at the beginning of the show, you read four books a week. All right, I told you I was gonna send you but there's somebody really dedicated to their personal growth and development of the written four books a week.
Don Green
Well, a an addition to the writing in my social media girl, when I came back once one day she had hung up on us or excited about sizes, this TV screen, and he said, There are two ways to learn. Looks better browse smarter people don Gary acid mono Why did you put that up? Or said you've told me that 1000 times? I said, well, they face a third way to earn you find out what it is, would you let me know that they do so. And not they get to see it? Because you know what? You read a good book guy and you only get one sadness out of it. You know, what? Then every one of us Yep. Where was at any hour who down? And, and it's it sucks and a seat is not the key to happiness. Happiness is a key says he says
Greg Voisen
yes, there. Yes, sir. That is most definitely true.
Don Green
Self accumulative self nominal. But yeah, happy. No. If you're happy in your circumstances, then you'll be successful.
Greg Voisen
Yes, well, you have a lot of wisdom to give a lot of people in your 83 years of being on this planet, and congratulations for that you just had a birthday March 1. So I want to acknowledge you on that. And as we wrap up this interview, what final words of wisdom or encouragement would you like to share with the audience who's out there listening today? And by the way, we've talked, actually, we've gone back and forth. But we've included some of the content from the millionaire mindset, and some of the content from achieving goals, but you get these books off Amazon, we're gonna have links to both of them. Don green himself is on this one right at the bottom. And this one, well, I guess this is just Napoleon Hill. But Don, what would you want to tell people as we kind of wrap this up about reading studying self development, achieving goals, masterminding Definiteness of Purpose? How would you kind of put a whole read that around that and give them some kind of encouragement as we sum up our podcast? Well,
Don Green
I had a reader use a starting point out that he was coming out of the post office one day and a friend said Dawn you got a new book out? Yeah, I think I might have won a car or send a new chick. I used to curse from the car. A lady was saying Bucha did not know I mean, I'm new to her face by the name and shoot for a conversation she saw a luxury ad and still don't have time. I said you don't have 24 hours a day. I said I don't really mean to you but we'll do what we want to I said I've found it to be and my friend and I'd be awkward to build a cable TV company woman down you know two things so one is one is just saw a at the National stapled watch cable company and older money they stake in was going out to a board might have to bank it to keep buying out to compare them to raise the price above Vader by reposted by our competitors I should hit both with just artist one and we'll put some money and build it with the money profit grow the thigh and grow that gold borrowed money and but I said part must study was average person United States they claim watches TV submersion they don't tell me you don't have time to read. We do what we want to do. We take time to eat down keepsake for sure. And other things basically we do what we want to do but I would say was was to develop a good range and habits. I'll be around I can name a few billion errs who are friends Guess what? There every one every graders and is it and I went in homes when I was in the finance business making $1.15 of our people did not have books. Now were they poured coated in our books. Which one was it? You know, but it may not have a one bite you tell me one time she said almost sugary were so hard if we Bernie got mad money to borrow cigarettes or coffee. Yeah, world bar. We ain't gonna waste no one Are you Oh, no books down there.
Greg Voisen
I liked your words, we're spending more money on cigarettes than we are on books. And it's like you say, it's where you make a choice to do what you do with your time. I remember this saying, if a camera followed you around all day long a video and took the video, would you like what was replayed back again? And if there is no alignment to your values, what do you stand for? What are you out there wanting to do or achieve your goal? And what do you want to change in the world that you don't like about what's going on right now. And there's money out there that all of us have to choose from, from the politics in our country, to the sustainability to our environmental issues, to all the other kinds of things we could get involved in. But the reality is, we have plenty of choices, where we could spend time to make a difference. And I appreciate you because the foundation itself makes a difference just by you as a director, making a connection with people just like the stories you just told. You sent the guy a couple of books, instead he sent you $100,000 Then he said, I'm going to come back, and he brings another $150,000 for you. And I'm sure you have many of those stories. But for everybody out there listening, just listen to what Don did. You see? I'm just gonna show him there's three little labels here that I printed, and I owe people books. When I promised people books, they don't always get them out the same day. I actually put these labels on and I carry them to the post office myself. And people are like, you do that yourself. And I go Yeah, I hear that. That's what I do. I find the books just like Don signed them to me and I take them to the post op That's right, Don it's
Don Green
absolutely my member Mark Twain says people don't read euro but Patri Yeah, that's good. And it is wet and sit is it pretty well because I mean, why would you not take advantage of this millions of people out there what is produced of that survey? You will tubers you know if you know don't matter if you're studying gardening or not daughter became a she's a CPA, but she came up pretty well known interior decorator just from the love of of doing it and is up as a hobby and and started studying the books and and taken of courses and what at any age because when people come home when say Donna who decide you're at your place I did where would you do some for for me and so she picks up records and it's still run by other mothers as to how much you charge should I charge base older material majority of additional time Don is sure interview Gods you don't remember Jacaranda money. She said mom if you don't Georgia Law people think you don't watch her do
Greg Voisen
that. And she's right. She's your daughter's very smart. Well, I will tell you to sitting above you on your left there is a gentleman who started combined insurance W Clement Stone and I see the picture of him because I can recognize him even through this camera that far way. And he was one of one of my kind of mentors and when I was early listening to the recordings. Who were the guys that started fall it wasn't Norman Vincent Peale because I listened to Norman Vincent Peale a ton. But Clement Stone got involved and they did the who is it that I'm thinking of Don all the audio cassette that used to I gotta
Don Green
go corny with old man Dino. Good old man he heard Augmon Dino used to work for him when he grew up
Greg Voisen
I'm trying to think of that the father and then the son took it over and I apologize listeners but if your daughter didn't nine good call now that's what it was. There you go. Yeah. Earl Nightingale
Don Green
Yeah, we probably have 30 or 40 audios with them. I talked to Bill de Goldman. Yeah, good guy. Good. Yeah.
Greg Voisen
Very good guy. As matter of fact you bring something up I need to go check that out night and go cone ad for all of you people who have and I'm sure the websites still up there. And there are some masterpieces from night and gal cone ad dislike there are from Napoleon Hill Foundation. All of this stuff. You may say, Well, this is old, old, old. No, this is timeless. Everything that's written here is timeless. And you'll find whether it's the definiteness of purpose or the mastermind groups or how to achieve goals. Building relationships all of that you couldn't go to a better resource than Napoleon Hill Foundation. So, Don, I appreciate you being back on again and talking about achieving your goals. And also we didn't speak a lot about it but the millionaire mindset but in essence we did, because both of them work together. But you're always an honor and a great person to have on the show. And I'm glad we got this time to talk about these two books. And for my listeners, we'll put links to Napoleon Hill. We'll put links to these books. You can check out all the other books as well. Don, thanks for being on inside personal growth. God bless you.
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Inside Personal Growth with Greg Voisen · Podcast 1099: You Can’t Market Manure at Lunchtime with Maisie GanzlerWelcome to another episode of Inside Personal Growth! We have Maisie Ganzler joining us today for her upcoming book You Can’t Market Manure at Lunchtime: And Other Lessons from the Food Industry for Creating a More Sustainable Company.
Maisie is an expert strategist with deep experience in scaling organizations, branding, cross disciplinary management, forging supply chains, and sustainability. Currently, she is the Chief Strategy and Brand Officer of Bon Appétit Management Company – an on-site restaurant company offering full food-service management to corporations, universities, museums, and specialty venues. Based in Palo Alto, CA, we operate more than 1,000 cafés in 33 states for dozens of marquee clients. Having joined Bon Appétit when revenues were just $94M, Maisie has been involved in all aspects. She currently manages all brand-related support departments — culinary, purchasing, strategic initiatives, nutrition and wellness, Web development, marketing, and communications — that make up the DNA of this food service pioneer.
Maisie has also served in advisory/board positions for exciting for profit and non-profit organizations such as Air Protein, Blendid, Just, the Equitable Food Initiative, FoodWhat?!, JUMA Ventures, and others.
With all her expertise and experiences, Maisie has completed a book which is set to be released on April 2, 2024. The book title is You Can’t Market Manure at Lunchtime: And Other Lessons from the Food Industry for Creating a More Sustainable Company. Through this book, Maisie takes you to pig farms and boardrooms, factories and farmers’ markets, teaching you not only how to operate more sustainably but also how to get the credit you deserve for doing it.
You may learn more about Maisie by visiting their company website through this link.
Thanks and happy listening!
You may also refer to the transcripts below for the full transciption (not edited) of the interview.
Interview Transcipt -Not EditedEmailDownloadNew TabGreg Voisen
Welcome back to Inside Personal Growth. This is Greg Voisen, host of Inside Personal Growth. And on the other end of this camera is Maisie Ganzler and Maisie is joining us from Santa Cruz today. Good day to you, Maisie, how you doing?
Maisie Ganzler
Good morning. I'm very good and happy to be here. Thanks. Great.
Greg Voisen
Well, it's a pleasure having you on the show. And I'm glad that Harvard press put us together as a Harvard Press book. And I'm gonna let our listeners know a little bit about this. The book that we're going to be doing the interview for today is called, you can't market manure at lunchtime, and other lessons from the food industry for creating a more sustainable company. The book will be out April 2, which is right around the corner for all of my listeners, and we'll put a link to Amazon there. Is there a particular website that you'd like the listeners to go to learn more about the book? Macy. I know we talked about that last time, so I don't know if you got a spot you want to send them?
Maisie Ganzler
Yeah, they can go to maisieganzler.com. So that's, that's my full name Maisie Ganzler, or as you say, just go to Amazon, it's a lot easier to spell.
Greg Voisen
We'll definitely put a link to your website, your personal website. But Maisie Gansler is the chief strategy and Brand Officer of Bon Appetit management company. As a matter of fact, when we talk she has since kind of retired from that position. So she was I should say, in that position, she's an award winning for food service company. For the last 30 years, she has been the architect of their groundbreaking approach to responsible purchasing and leading a force behind their pivotal shift towards sustainability. Sustainability is a crucial component in marketing everything from food to clothing, consumers, and critics often think that there is a sustainable switch somewhere that corporate executives slip on, or simply write a check to fix but many companies are in the dark about actually how to do it, and make it better for the planet and people through the power their supply chain, while simultaneously increasing sales and managing costs. And what Macy has become is really a thought leader in this arena. And her new book, as we said, you can't market manure at lunchtime is just out for release. And we're going to be speaking with her about the book, and how she has been able to do this for bon appetit and advise other people as well. Well, Macy, good morning to you. If you would tell the listeners a little bit about yourself the role that you had, and now as a consultant to the company, as a go to expert to help companies make this positive chain in their supply chain. And what you call other entrenched systems that are that are out there. So would this be a good place to start? Absolutely.
Maisie Ganzler
So I had the great fortune of finding a corporate home with bone appetit management company that I was able to stay in and grow for 30 years, it was a fantastic run. And in that time you stick around a company long enough, you can start picking up departments. So as you said, I've recently retired from the role of Chief Strategy and Brand Officer. And in that position, I oversaw marketing, communications, purchasing, wellness, culinary and guest facing technology. What you didn't hear me say was that I oversaw the sustainability department. And that's a very conscious choice that I made at Bon Appetit to never have anybody in a corporate role with the term sustainability in their title. I think when you do that you make sustainability, one person's job or one group's job. And I think to have it truly at the heart of your brand, which is what I'm talking about in you can't market manure at lunchtime. You have to have sustainability as part of everybody's job. So getting back to who I am, I'm somebody who spent 30 years working in a large corporation. We're about $1.7 billion in revenue 20,000 employees and creating a differentiation in the marketplace using sustainability. Yeah,
Greg Voisen
sustainability is one of those words that gets tossed around as you said, and you know, we look at a mini comp is like Patagonia who've been a great example of sustainability, how they access their products. And they're only one of many who actually use it in their marketing. Right? In other words to get it to the public, because that's what the public is demanding. Now they're demanding more and not greenwashing. But truly companies that are acting sustainable. You know, the title for the book, you can't market manure at lunchtime. It's obviously very unusual. Even if you want to hold it up again, I'd love to, so that people can see that the outside of it. And it's intriguing, could you just share the story behind how you came up with that particular title for the book.
Maisie Ganzler
So you can't make it maneuver at lunchtime refers to an experience I had, where our CEO and founder Fidel Bauccio, had been railing against corporate big ag, particularly in pork production. He had spent two years on something called the Pew commission for industrial farm animal production, which was a group of experts that travelled around the country looking at how animals are being raised for food. And he had become outraged about many things, including how manure is managed. Manure is often simply sprayed into the air to cover fields and nearby communities have high rates of asthma and other lung conditions. So he was literally and cancer. Yeah. So he was really fired up. And he was he was speaking out, and our pork supplier, flew to our Palo Alto offices to say, Stop talking about about us stop complaining publicly. And there was this argument going on between the two of them. And in my head, I was cheering on my boss who was taking up the mantle for environmental change. But I was also thinking, you can't market manure at lunchtime. And what I meant by that was if he was able to succeed in getting the manure lagoons emptied and a new manure management system put into place, how were we going to tell that story to our customers? How are we going to get market credit for that, because it was going to raise costs. And so the title has that dual piece of manure, which I think stands in for environmental change, and marketing, which stands in for business interests, and my hope is that you can marry both of them. And, you know, the platitude do do well, by doing good. It's
Greg Voisen
interesting, because I'm not, if I don't remember the state correctly, but there's been a lot of stories lately, I think it's North Carolina, or in that region, where the manure that is produced by the pigs ends up providing such a stench in the community. And these are, oh, what I want to call impoverished areas around this area, so many of the people are not treated equally. And I think it's really important to understand that that problem is polluting the waterways, it's creating cancer in the community, it's creating a lot of problems. So for your boss, standing up for something to change is really a big deal, because that's a huge, huge industry that has made tons of money off the way they've continued to do things. And they need to change. Most definitely. So you know, you state that building a brand known for authentically promoting sustainability. It requires both making meaningful change, like you were talking about with your boss, and get marketing recognition for your efforts. How can businesses integrate sustainability into their marketing efforts? In and I'm gonna underline this in a genuine and impactful way. And I think the key word there really is genuine because I've seen this done really bad. And I've seen it done very well. And right now, you know, it's like this whole controversy over Well, are you going to buy an Eevee? That's a good one. Well, and then while we're all those batteries going, right, so tell us how you would do that because you are the marketing genius.
Maisie Ganzler
Well, in order to integrate sustainability into your marketing in genuine, authentic way, first you have to integrate sustainability into your operations. And I think that's really the key is that marketing doesn't get out ahead of how the business is operating. At Bon appetit. We started our local buying program farm to fork in 1999. We committed to sustainable seafood around the same time I started working on antibiotics and food production in 2002. It wasn't until 2004, that we actually put a brochure together and started talking about these things publicly. So we had many years of operational change before we started telling the story. And I think that's the first piece to authenticity is making sure that you're actually doing the things in your business that these actions have been institutionalized, prior to marketing them. And then the second piece of authenticity is about really being transparent. And I mean, radically transparent. So when things go wrong, you tell your customers, the message should come from you first, don't hope that no one's going to notice, my experience is that if you get the message out there first, in most cases, people don't even listen, it becomes a nothing burger. So it's those two pieces of making sure you're really doing it and being transparent, then you come up with the cute marketing line and the great brochure with the pretty pictures. Well,
Greg Voisen
as you're speaking about this, I'm thinking about Friday of last week, I spent a full day at natural, natural products West Expo. And this is where all of these food companies and all kinds of other companies introduce new lines, new brands, new this new that. And it always surprises me as to the billions and billions and billions of dollars that go into marketing foods, right? Food, food products, food substitutes, whatever they are, yet, they I hate to point this out. But many of them are not sustainable the way they're packaging them or putting them together. You know, like putting water in an aluminum can Well, who thought that one through? That's one of monsters new things monster drink, monster water now, right? What do you think needs to happen to that kind of industry? Because it's, it's really about the sizzle, the sex, the appeal, what the consumer is on the other end to try and get them to convert to some kind of new product or whatever? What What kind of warning would you have for kind of the consumers that don't know it all out there that are sitting there listening to this podcast going? Oh, well, there's that great new XYZ, you know, called The Impossible Burger, the beyond burger, whatever it is? They're trying to do good, but I'm not certain are they always? Yes,
Maisie Ganzler
you raise a lot of really good points. And one thing that comes to mind quickly for me, though, as a marketer, is that water in a can or water in a bottle is convenient for people, they perceive it to be better for them somehow more pure, and easy. And we as people selling and marketing food or any product have to keep in mind, the customers desires. And sometimes in the sustainability world, when we're marketing products, we want customers to do things that they perceive as counter to their own interests, we want them to do something that's harder, or something, eat something that doesn't taste as good, or pay more or go out of their way to get it. So we need to always remember things have to be convenient, and affordable, and pretty, and most importantly, taste really good. One of the other issues that you raised was around understanding the science behind something you'd have but what happens to those evey batteries is a beyond burger and Impossible Burger really better for you or not, or better for the planet. And one of the things that I really struggled with at Bon Appetit was having all of this science and wanting to tell every customer the entire story, I wanted to give a two hour lecture on why antibiotics are used in animal production with lots of big scientific words. And customers don't really have time or interest for the most part in that. So my recommendation to companies that have a sustainability story is that you need to have a two fold story. One is the quick piece of information. That's your headline on your package, your posters, your website, but then you need a click here for more to give the science behind and really be able to prove what that claim is. 80% of people are never going to click more. But those people who have that real curiosity, who really understand the issues, you need to give them the information. I think the Monterey Bay Aquarium Seafood Watch program does a great job with that on their website, you get the quick hint of what the rating is, is the seafood a best choice good alternative, or you should do avoid it. And then you can click further and see a summary of the report. And then you can click and see the entire report that the scientists have written that's gone out for public comment, most people aren't going to read that. But for the few that do that's really critical.
Greg Voisen
It's interesting, because the supply chain is so filled with so much to actually do all your research deep before you put a product out is a big key area. I just use an example. There was these farmers almond farmers at the show from Australia, and the byproduct was organic honey. And they said to me, do you know in the United States, there is no organic honey. And I went, really, and they said because it has to be natural from within a certain distance, just what you're saying, you know, you have to meet these certain requirements for it to be labeled organic. Right. And we, according to them, they said we don't have any organic. And when I went around the show, I did not find organic on the bottles of honey. I only saw it at that one spot. So I found that quite interesting. And I think that's a lesson we all can kind of learn is like we don't know, we just picked something off the shelf, we believe well, because it was a bee it was organic, but it's not. It's not. So in your book, you speak about these five lessons for building business and a brand on sustainability. Could you speak with the listeners about the lessons and how companies can benefit from these lessons that you've learned?
Maisie Ganzler
Lesson number one is about how to pick the issues you take on as a company. And that example that you just gave about the organic honey is a great a great example. So that company has decided the issue they're taking on its organics. Now they're bringing a product from Australia, I think you said Yeah, to the US. And they're raising of product, almonds that are very water intensive. So the issue that they've picked is organics and probably pollinators since they're talking about bees, they have not picked local purchasing, and they have not picked water reduction. And that's okay if that speaks to your customers. So issue number are Lesson number one is to pick the battles that create a narrative that resonates with you and your company and your customers. Lesson number two is maybe you should rewrite your dream. And that comes from at Bon Appetit in 2004. When I said we started talking publicly about sustainability, we actually rewrote the mission statement or what's called at Bon Appetit the dream. And that's the idea that if you truly want sustainability to be at the heart of your brand and needs to be at the heart of your business. Lesson number three is about creating systems alignment and measurement. If you want sustainability to be true and genuine, you need to track it, prove it and report out. And it's probably the least sexy but most important topic of all which is measurement. The true work of sustainability often hits happens sitting behind the computer with a bunch of spreadsheets, looking at individual purchases and adding up what percent were organic or local or that, you know, we like to think of the sustainability professional walking the fields and and you should do that too. Absolutely. But much of the work is around measurement and reporting. Lesson Four is what to do when things go wrong, because things will go wrong. I promise you that especially if you're taking a leadership position, you're going to falter. And I start off by telling the story of Bill Campbell meats, which claimed that all of the meat that they sold online and in their retail shops came from their own farm their own ranch, while an employee went onto Instagram, and kind of crudely refuted that claim. Fast forward. It turned out that they were selling 94% of their products from their own land. Yet the app the accusations of greenwashing and how the issue was mishandled after that led to Is the company going kaput? Del Campo Farms is now a glamping site. And they're not selling the meat under the volcanica label at all. Any of us that have been measuring, as in lesson three, sustainability would be thrilled to be hitting a 94% success rate. So how did 94% lead to the undoing of an entire company? It's because they weren't transparent, and they didn't handle things correctly when things go wrong. So that's what I teach you in lesson four. And then lesson five is how to tell your story. And as I said earlier, in our conversation, it's intentional that you're telling the story at the very end, when you've already gotten through lessons one through four. But I talk about how to literally tell the story how to say the words and deliver the message as well as where to tell the story.
Greg Voisen
You know, as you're speaking here, I'm thinking to myself, I'm gonna be 70 years old in July. And I think about how did we get here? Meaning from this whole measurement of sustainability, because I can go back in time when I was a kid, nobody from what I could see was measuring anything that that planet was headed in the wrong direction, we were doing everything wrong. I know, we're at almost 8 billion people on this planet. And that's got to be one of the biggest reasons why we're so focused, and especially this $350 million 350 million person country. But then when you look at all these other countries, India, China, all the ones you put together, do you believe that they are as involved in the sustainability arena? Or is this just something that's centralized to Europe and the United States? You know, what's going on in the international market? I know, this wasn't one of my questions, but I'm intrigued. I'm intrigued with somebody with your knowledge to really tell me, what how did we get here, and our other company countries playing in this same arena?
Maisie Ganzler
Well, you mentioned India and China. And I think that one of the biggest questions is in the countries that have huge populations, and are growing in the case of India, not China, and have different maybe government oversight or lack thereof of sustainability reaching them as well. And I'll share a few things that give me hope. One is I've been doing a lot of work supporting the Monterey Bay Aquarium seafood watches program in trying to have more sustainable farmed shrimp production in India and Vietnam. And well, perhaps they don't have the same intrinsic desires, as we do as a whole as the government at the government level. They are wanting to sell to the US market. So right now, the majority of Indian farm shrimp is red listed by the Monterey Bay Aquarium. And that means that the vast majority of of us buyers will not buy it. So while they may not be trying to green shrimp in India, for the same reasons that we've been talking about, they do have a market interest in doing so. I see. I also I also got to go to Vietnam with the Seafood Watch team and I had a late night flight. It was flying out at two o'clock in the morning. And our meetings were done at 8am. And so I signed up for a cooking class just I was in Ho Chi Minh City, signed up for a Vietnamese cooking class and met this fantastic young couple, who was through Airbnb experiences, teaching cooking classes. And we started to go to get ready to go to the market to shop for ingredients. And she pulled out Tupperware reusable containers. And if you've ever been to an Asian market, there is no such thing as a reusable container. There's plastic bags everywhere. And she said to me, I'm a minimalist, and I'm an environmentalist. And there was this young woman taking her containers and explaining to the stall keepers that she wanted her things in reusable containers. That is the hope, right? Good
Greg Voisen
story.
Maisie Ganzler
Yeah, change is gonna happen. Well, it
Greg Voisen
happens one person at a time. We know that. And all of us out there listening who are consumers in the end. Be knowledgeable about where you're buying what you're buying what you're doing. Do a little research take a little bit more time to understand where these products are sourced from an X They were there sourcing the content from your thing with the pigs is a great example. Now, you in the book, you suggest the importance of timing and context in marketing. Can you discuss how businesses can effectively navigate what you're calling timing and contacts to maximize the impact of their marketing campaign? So if they're out there, I do realize there's certain timing like, right, like, last night, I watched the special that Oprah did on the medications that she used to lose weight, and brought all these people on, it was very interesting. It was very rushed, unfortunately. But, you know, obesity being such a big problem in every country, especially in England, and the United States, and, and, and in Australia. We've got these issues, and they're saying that it is a defeat, right. So I think to be knowledgeable these campaigns, I can almost see it after Oprah did that. Now you're going to see this blossoming of, because she is so big, like, Okay, is it time for me? Because Oprah did this, that maybe I could do this, right? You're following me where I'm going? Yeah, I
Maisie Ganzler
am. And one of the things that I talk about in the book is about when you launch your campaign and how you do it. And what I found is that you need a disruptive event. We were serving people at lunch, putting out lots of marketing materials. And people just ran by them. They're, they're there for lunch, they're moving fast. It's not the time that they want to sit down and read or learn. So we had to create disruptive events. One was called the Eat Local challenge, where for one day year, we served food that was all from 150 miles of the cafe, we marketed it ahead of time that it was going to happen. We change things around in the cafe. So when you got there, it looked differently. We brought farmers into the cafes, and people made time in their schedule, knowing that when they went to lunch that day, there was going to be an event and they were going to talk to people and learn something. Now, in reality, we were buying locally year round, but people didn't have time to stop and think about it. So that program you're talking about that Oprah did. That's the disruptive event, right? Yeah, I get promoted ahead of time, you're primed, you're gonna sit down for an hour and listen about it. And you're in a place where you're ready to receive the message.
Greg Voisen
Right? Well, that brings me to this question around storytelling. You know, you emphasize this value of storytelling and marketing in a chapter. And it's how to tell your story. So what you just did is set up a great example for to tell the story you brought the farmers in, it was within 150 miles, that was a lot more powerful than putting a bunch of brochures out for people who walked through to think they were going to do it because they weren't, and it was engaging. The reality is you had an audience engage? How can you share some examples, like more examples of successful storytelling techniques that have cotton you've come across in used to engage audiences to make a change in some way?
Maisie Ganzler
Well, using my story that I just told as an example, again, I started off the story by saying we put up information and people walked by it, right. So I started off with setting up a problem and owning a problem. So that is people want or then want to hear well, how did you fix it? And I come off as more authentic because I'm being transparent about not having always done it correctly. And so that's a big part about storytelling, when it comes to sustainability is not trying to put forth a perfect glossy picture. because sustainability is more complicated than that. So you want to be open about your setbacks. And in fact, I think you will be rewarded more by your customers when they understand how hard it was for you. In the intro. You said that, people advocates consumers often think that there's a flip a switch somewhere, you can flip and be more sustainable, if only a company would pay more. And it turns out, it's much much harder than that. Supply chains are complicated. The science is ever changing and not always clear. And so you should be Oh, Then about how difficult it was about how many times you screwed up. And in the end, people will appreciate your act more. So that story should be twisting and turning and have tension. And then you have this great resolution. Yeah, it's,
Greg Voisen
I agree, and especially something like what we said, Oprah was kind of the kickoff point, right, or the, the defining event or something, we've seen an industry, which is grown quite a bit, and I particularly follow it because I'm an avid cyclist, and that's electric bikes. And I know this isn't in the food realm, but I'm gonna use this as an example. It's become, I went to the CES show. And it surprised me the number of people that have jumped into the electric bike business, because it's projected to be a $5 billion industry here upcoming in these months. And what was interesting about it is, it's almost like in many cases, not much thought went into the, the actual production of the bicycle. So it's like, let's just get a bicycle out, right? Because we want to get in the market, we want people to know that it's going to happen. But what I'm saying is, that's not the way to do it. And it is, there is a way to do it. And it needs to be because the consumers out there are getting more and more savvy about the components on those bicycles, right. And it's no different than food than it is with bicycles. You said the beginning of this, this could be clothing, it can be bicycles, it can be electric cars, it can be whatever. It's really about how you're getting the story out. And as readers reach kind of the conclusion of your book, you can't market manure at lunchtime, what overarching message or takeaway do you hope that they're going to glean from reading your book in this message and take away? Whether it be the average consumer who looks up your book and learn something, or the person who's sitting in a big corporation or a mid sized Corporation, who's trying to do something differently? To really help the environment and put a better product in the market? What would you want them to walk away from here?
Maisie Ganzler
The overarching message of you can't market manure at lunchtime, I hope is that if you have a real strategy to your sustainability efforts, you can make meaningful change and get market credit. And when I say have a real strategy, I think that often, sustainability departments and large companies are just trying to meet some metric they're trying to get to net zero. They're trying to do whatever an advocacy group is asking them to do. And it's not integrated into the strategy of their overall business. It's just a one time checkoff box. I think that if you really pick the right issues, you align your systems, you tell your story, in a very intentional way that you can do better for our planet, do better for our communities, and do better for your bottom line, that those things are in concert not in conflict. Yes,
Greg Voisen
they are. And I have an offbeat question for you. Do you believe that our state which many people are running from at this point because of the cost to implement these environmental and sustainability programs, including the introductions of EVs to a large degree and the amount of money the state of California spends to make this happen? Do you believe it's headed in the right track? I know this is a generalized question. But there, we have some people that say, Hey, this is too expensive. We we just can't live here anymore because of the laws and the rules and the things that are being implemented. And you have people running and then you have other people running toward it saying, This is good. We need this because we need to save the world. Right? Does that make sense?
Maisie Ganzler
Yeah, I'll use the example of prop two in California, which was the bill that or the proposition that outlawed the sale or production of of pork raised with the use of gestation crates in the state of California, and it passed with an overwhelming majority. The thing that was really interesting about how the bill was written, it wasn't just pork raised in California, it was pork sold in California. And that's a recognition that California has a huge influence. I think we're what the fifth largest economy in the world something like that. Yeah. And with that comes responsibility I used to all the time, say, with great power comes great responsibility until I realized that I think I'm quoting Spider Man's uncle or something. How did that become my, my mantra, but I do believe it with great power comes great responsibility. And so California has an influence beyond even just our state lines. So the pork industry claimed that if prop two stood and they took it all the way to the Supreme Court that have brought to stood, there would be huge pork shortages, that bacon would double in price overnight, that the world would would end
Greg Voisen
right worked out Fornia.
Maisie Ganzler
Well, not just for California, for also the pork producers in Iowa and in North Carolina, and they're all selling to California. Well, prop two went into effect in January. And thus far, I think you can still get a BLT pretty much anywhere, even at a Denny's and they're still bacon on the burgers at your fast food restaurants. So some of that hype of the disaster that that California has good intentions are going is going to read, you might want to look at where those criticisms are coming from.
Greg Voisen
Well, I would agree with you. And I also, you know, you mentioned about in the market in the Asian markets with the girl bringing her own sustainable Tupperware. And you know, we've been all over the state different cities are banning plastic bags. And I live in a little city Encinitas, where they've been banned for quite some time. And now even banning more of those type of things that are being used, because they tried to change the kind of bag and then they said, No, you're not going to change that bag, we're just not going to have plastic bags at all. And so I don't disagree with that. What I'm saying is we do live in a state where we've taken many of these things to local municipalities to come up with laws and rules to regulate whether or not you can do what I just said was bring, bring your own plastic bag in and then carry it back home again, which I think is the right thing to do. So look, the books filled with stories, real life examples from the food world? What bits of advice do you have for businesses looking to adapt their marketing strategies, and align with the evolving consumer preferences and values? Because this is really the where that pedal hits the metal? Right? It's like, what are those consumers thinking about their their preferences and values? And how is my marketing going to align to that, and I don't think it's a one size fits all. That's what I do know for a fact, because we're made of a planet of all kinds of people, all different nationalities. And not everybody thinks and acts the same way.
Maisie Ganzler
I had the great pleasure interviewing 12 People for the book. So there's lots of stories in addition to my own from, from brands that people would recognize, like Whole Foods Market, Chipotle, Ben and Jerry's, Clif Bar and company. And one of the people I interviewed was Roma, mckegg. And she talked about just what you're getting at, which is that she was at a large food company. And they outlined 14 dimensions, I think of sustainability, and then decided in each area, did they want to be a leader? Or did they want to just keep up with the pack? You never want to be a laggard. But as you say, there's people have different desires, different values, different needs. And as companies, we need to know which part of the market we're serving, and then decide for each dimension of sustainability. Do we want to be a leader? And if so, I wouldn't wait for consumer preference. If you want to be a leader, you're going to have to be out in front of your consumers, leading them taking some risks, you'll probably stumble, as I said, but you need to be out there ahead and saying, Hey, here's an issue you haven't even thought of yet. And here's what we're doing about it. That's where you want to be if you decide to be a leader, if you want to keep up with the pack, then you're watching those consumer market research reports, and you're watching your competitors and you're making sure that you don't fall behind. And that again, goes back to what I'm saying about having a strategy, really thinking through where does sustainability fit into your brand? And where do you need to be in terms of the marketplace relatively to your competitors, and
Greg Voisen
I think it's a cradle to cradle kind of situation. You can't do cradle to grave, right? It's not like Okay, I can in the I have a loamy, right? Oh, that's like, Hey, we're How are you getting rid of your raised? Well, you're turning it in to compost and you're putting it back into the ground again, well, is that the best way because you get to use all the electricity for the Lumbee. Or you just put it in a bag and throw it in the trash can. And I did an interview with a guy from Italy that came up with the most sustainable way because Italy was having such a problem with food waste. And it was interesting to see what the remedies were. And like I say, people that are aware want to have an option to choose how they do that. Right. And I think when you lead your marketing campaign in the right direction, and you do think Cradle to Cradle not cradle to grave, because most people are saying, well, I don't just want the methane gas to be pumped off to serve people that are mining Bitcoin, right? Because that's what's happening now with the the gases that are coming off of trash heaps and disposals. Right. But, you know, there's so many things that are going on out there and you expose so many people to it. Can you hold the book up again, just so our listeners can see the front cover cover of it. It's a great I love the cover. By the way, you can't market manure at launch. Maisie Gansler, we've been on with her speaking about her new book, Maisie, thanks so much for being on inside personal growth and sharing some of your stories and sharing how you when you're worked at Bon appetit. You know, you really had it up what you you call this department with inside the company and the things you've learned and now as an advisor, teaching other people out in the world how to do this, go to her website, which we said is Maisie m a i s i e, g a n g le r.com. There you can get in touch with her if you've got some questions or you want to hire her to be a consultant to your company. I'm sure she'd be happy to do that. Maisie thanks for being on inside personal growth. And thanks for taking the time today. Namaste to you.
Maisie Ganzler
Thank you. I really enjoyed the conversation.
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Inside Personal Growth with Greg Voisen · Podcast 1098: Conversation with the Heart with Dr. Lise JanelleWelcome back to Inside Personal Growth! Joining us this episode is Dr. Lise Janelle featuring one of her books Conversation with the Heart.
Dr. Lise is a well-known Human Potential Expert and Elite Mindset Coach who is transforming lives since 1989. Her background as a holistic chiropractor offered her the gift of working one-on-one with thousands of people using mind/body work, and now, she has also been a transformational coach since 2004. True to Dr. Lise’s life’s mission which is to help as many people as she can experience the joy, love and fulfillment that comes from living connected with their hearts, she has successfully helped her clients achieve fast, deep and long-lasting breakthroughs by combining what she has learned from some of the world’s best teachers and her empirical experience.
On her journey to helping, Dr. Lise discovered a new framework to free ourselves from our past which she calls The Heart Freedom Method. It is a unique and powerful mind-body method that works on the physical, mental, emotional and spiritual levels to get at the core of what is holding you back.
Dr. Lisa has also been inspiring people through her writings. One of those is Conversation with the Heart. In this book, explains how you can finally break free from this cycle to find what you were searching for all along. Also, Conversation with the Heart not only reveals powerful principles and tools which can quickly reconnect you with your heart, but also provides you with proven ways to feel and share more inspiring moments of fulfilment and love.
You may learn more about Dr. Lise by visiting her website here. You may also visit the book website through this link.
Thanks and happy listening!
You may also refer to the transcripts below for the full transciption (not edited) of the interview.
Interview Transcipt -Not EditedEmailDownloadNew TabGreg Voisen
Welcome back to Inside personal growth. This is Greg Voisen, the host of Inside Personal Growth. And joining us from Toronto, Canada is Dr. Lise Janelle, DC. Good day to you. Dr. Lise, how are you doing?
Dr. Lise Janelle
Hello, Greg, nice to be with you. I'm doing great. Thank you.
Greg Voisen
Well, it's good to have you on Inside Personal Growth. Yeah, Dr. Lise and I have talked as well. And I'm actually going to do a session with her on Friday. And I'm looking forward to that. But I'm gonna let the listeners know a bit about you. She's got a new book out called Conversations with the Heart: Reveal Yourself to Yourself. And you can get that on Amazon, we're going to have a link to Amazon. Dr. Lise draws upon her extensive experience as a transformational coach. To help you break free from a cycle of searching for something without finding it. With or guidance, you can unlock your potential and discover what you're seeking. All of the tools provided by Dr. Lise are in that book. Over the course of two decades, she's helped countless people achieve transformative results, regardless of difficult paths, or seemingly impossible challenges. She helps them achieve success and for all transforming their life. And make sure that you go out today and look for the website and we were just talking about this. It's conversation, c-o-n-v-e-r-s-a-t-i-o-n, not s, no s on it. withtheheart.com. There you can learn more about Dr. Lise, her appearances, the book, the audiobook, the eBook, and what others are saying about it. She's got quite an extensive background and comes well verse to be able to speak with us today about this. So Doctor least, can you tell the listeners I know you're a doctor of chiropractic, because that's what DC stands for a little bit about yourself and your background? And what inspired you to write this book Conversation with the Heart. I'm going to keep repeating that to myself, because they asked plural makes a big difference. Conversation with the Heart.
Dr. Lise Janelle
Yes, when I was creating the title, I wanted it to be a continuous conversation. So that's why I didn't put that as, like, I believe the ideal state of being is to be constantly connected with the heart so it can be guiding us. So how did I come about doing this work? I'm in 1988, my father was diagnosed with terminal cancer and given nine months to live. That was three weeks before my sister's wedding. One week after my sister's wedding, my 21-year-old brother died in a car accident, and within a month of all this my eight-year relationship to them and I was gonna marry and it was like, oh, oh, oh. So you know, these things that happens in their life I find that are divinely designed just for us. I was not aware that one day I would be doing what I'm doing. But to survive the pain that I was feeling. I went on a quest to understand how can you live life when these things happen? Because it's not if it's when, when these things happen? How don't you go flat like a pancake? How can you use it to your advantage. So on my quest to understand, you know how to live a great life, I meant I met two great mentors to me. And they've both chiropractors one is Dr. Scott Walker, who teaches a mind body method called ne t neuro emotional technique. And it's amazing as a chiropractor, like I could have 10 patients with same low back condition, eight of them would get better and the two of them were not until I found that tool. And then, like my recovery rate increased even more like sometimes when there's too much tissue damage, I won't but so it was amazing for me. I just love love loved using it. And then I started using with my patients when they were stuck and I thought that was great. And then I met Dr. John Demartini and John teaches the power of gratitude. And so I ended up working with my patients with my clients. And I ended up combining the two because I anything is beautiful. But I wanted to bring a spiritual aspect to it. And for me, the highest form of spirituality is unconditional love. It's for me, God is love, gratitude, all these things are all connected. And then, in 2004, I became a full time coach, I had to leave my cushy life as a chiropractor, which I love being a chiropractor, I was like, my patient loved me, I love my patient, I work 25 hours a week, I took 1213 weeks off per year, I did lots of seminars during that time, I had everything like it was a good life. But in 1989, I hadn't written a mission statement for my life. And the career statements said that I was going to help maximize the life of millions of people through reconnecting them with their heart. Why? Because in 1989, I had this most powerful spiritual experience where, through doing this exercise with Dr. DE martini, I was opening my heart to my father, I had been really angry with my father for a long time. But then when I started to do the work, slowly, but surely, I started to see the big picture of the perfection of having had my father. And then this manual reminded me of my father, I saw him, he got really upset. And he says, Mother, why is it you never loved me. So my heart went, boom, because I understood that was my father's stories. And in that state. Like, if you read about people who had near death experience, you know, they go on the other side, and they come back while I was in that state, because I ended up in this place where only the thing I felt was love. And I was shown without words, I understood that it was told to me that everything, everything that's happening, everything that will ever happen is there for us to grow in love and wisdom.
Greg Voisen
Yeah. And it is in you know, you have told lots of stories in the book. And one of the things you speak about, and I think for the listeners is the differences between how people describe how they feel, when they're not in their hearts, and how they feel when they are in their hearts. And you're explaining your own, right, this is, you know, this epiphany you had, could you speak with us about the differences in the deep awareness and becoming masterful at conversing with our heart? Because I don't think people think daily, okay, today, I'm gonna wake up and I'm gonna talk to my heart. Or they might think, Hey, I'm going to be a little more empathetic with myself, more understanding with myself, because a lot of this is about where our ego goes, and how it beats us up in the process, saying we're not enough because we're constantly living with that old tape. But the only way you can open up the heart is to know you are enough. You're just okay the way you are. And to accept who you are. Yes.
Dr. Lise Janelle
Yes, I like if I asked you is a baby worthy of love?
Greg Voisen
Is what?
Dr. Lise Janelle
a baby worthy of love?
Greg Voisen
Yes.
Dr. Lise Janelle
Is that toddler in the throes of the terrible twos worthy of love? Yes. Is a teenager worthy of love? Yes. Is a 20? At what point did we stop being worthy of love? Never. Exactly. We only stopped being worthy of love when we created a story that we were about to choose is our essence, who we are, is love. I believe that this is for me. I believe that love is not an emotion. It's actually our essence. It's our state of being we all have access to that. And that when people tell me they don't know how to connect with their heart, I know it's because there's not enough gratitude. That's why gratitude is super important. When you're grateful you basically feel like heaven on earth. When we are on grateful we feel like hell on earth. So the key, the only forward state of being that lives in the heart is love, gratitude, inspiration and wisdom, love, gratitude, inspiration and wisdom. And when people tell me I'm not sure what I should be doing in my life, I don't know when I can. I'm not I don't feel guided. I know that that person does not have a connection with their heart through gratitude when people see and I'm going to use my face I have a yin and a yang. I use this all the time. And for me, it's a perfect visual to show that whenever we face a challenge, they can be an equal and opposite benefit. If we look at it, and I tell a corny story, but it's the perfect corny story. One day, a scientist is observing a butterfly coming out of a cocoon, and it's so huge struggle, it takes hours and hours an hour. So to be nice, the butterfly cocoon open. But by doing this, the butterfly has nothing to struggle against. So the wings are weak, can never fly, and it dies like that. So if we can start looking at every single thing that ever happened to us, which is, you know, that spiritual experience I was sharing with you, everything that's ever happened to you, that is happening, that will ever happen to you, is for you to grow in love and wisdom. So when a challenge happens, if you take a deep breath, and then you go, since I'm worthy of love, how am I going to use this to my advantage, and quiet changes your whole life, that's when you really have a conversation with your heart, because I think looking to the outside world to you know, make you feel better? Are you starting to learn to self soothe, and we all have to learn to self soothe?
Greg Voisen
I think the question might be what listeners might want to think about, is it happening to me? Or is it happening for me? And that the difference between two and four, it's happening for you for a reason. Now, the bigger part is how do we accept that and in your chapter titled, The Game of creation, the eight years of the self, you introduce this game of creating a fulfilling life. Now a lot of people might be going on saying, it's happening to me, You did this to me, you're the reason you're the fault, whatever. What we're trying to do is get you to shift the perspective. No one else out there does it to you, you do it all to yourself. Can you speak with our audiences about the game? And what are the challenges in playing the game?
Dr. Lise Janelle
Yes, the biggest challenge we all face, and it comes back to when we were babies, when you were born. When we are born, love has to come from the outside. And if someone is there to respond, when you cry, you feel I'm queen or king in the world. And when there's nobody to respond to, you need to feel what's wrong with me. So we create stories, because you can have two people with the same challenge. And one person takes off from it becomes amazing, and the other person goes down with it. So what happens is like, and I've asked this question to 1000s of people, raise your hand, if you've never had huge challenges. And so far with 1000s of people, only one person who was a young girl, and she said me, and I'm scared because I don't know what's gonna happen, you know, when a challenge happens. So when someone, something happens, when we feel to us, we feel we're a victim. As long as we're a victim, we're going to be stuck. So it's our choice, we have a choice, every single time to go into victim mentality, this is happening to me what's wrong, all these things, which is just going to take your power away. Or if, like, you know, we're human beings. So what I do is when these things happen to me, I go into victimhood for five minutes, I allow myself to feel the pity party poor me, why is this happening? And then, okay, these, that's a lie. Center yourself, how are you going to use this to your advantage. And that is so empowering. And we have a choice, even if what I'm telling you is baloney. If you choose to look at life, from that point of view, I know because I've worked with 1000s of people, your life is just gonna get better and better and better instead of getting more and more scared. Because every time something happens that challenging, most people just end up shutting down their heart more and more and more where their world becomes so small, that it's impossible to be happy. But if you walk towards life, and whenever there's support or challenges, you know, it's all happening for you. Now you create a different world much more an expansion and inspiring world.
Greg Voisen
Can you speak about, though you referenced the submitting points in the book The eight mirrors of self? How can the principles outlined in that eight mirrors of self help these individuals who are listening, navigate and grow from difficult circumstances because like you said, you only had one girl had her hand up because she was very young and hadn't had any, any issues at that point, we're all going to face challenges. And I think it's like, a friend of mine put a post on LinkedIn today about walking around with these 25 pound weights around his neighborhood and everyone Oh, yeah, I would always ask him, Why are you wearing those weights? And he said, well, because it's making me grow stronger. It's kind of like, we all have the weight of the world that we have to deal with, or relationships, or, or whatever it might be financial circumstances. And if you know how to carry that weight, like you're talking about, you literally can become stronger. But most people don't look at it as becoming stronger. They say, are you going to go through it? Or are you going to grow through it? Right? That's an old statement. It's been around forever. But I think the point is, we're trying to say, how do you grow through this with grace, with ease with understanding with understanding your heart? And why did you attract it into your life? In the first place? What did you need to learn? And I want you to comment about the mayor's herself. Okay,
Dr. Lise Janelle
but you remember my story about, you know, my brother dying, and my father cancer, that was a big Ah, so, this is where I've learned what I'm telling you, things are not happening to us that are happening for us. Because when you face your challenges, only two reasons why you feel so challenge number one, it's because you need to master something, because obviously, if you mastered it, it's not a challenge anymore. Number two, it's sending you in a direction that you need to go that you are either aware or you need to go when you're kicking and screaming because it's too comfy like me, when I left my chiropractic life, it was like, Oh,
Greg Voisen
I don't want to go.
Dr. Lise Janelle
You know, that's scary to stop doing what I know so well, and people would love me to become a coach. But I have no choice. In 2003, I was standing behind my patients and I'd be crying. I took my girlfriend out for her birthday and bring them on birthday dinner, I started crying. So I took three months off an NGO Kaylee's, you need to challenge yourself to give your heart what it wants. So this is one example of I knew I shouldn't be moving, but I was not doing it. The other example is like the one with my father dying, cancer, my brother dying. What that one is the most challenging one because when it happens, unless you have already a statement of purpose for your life, it's harder to decipher. How is this guiding you but if you open your heart and you go with love for yourself, you go, alright, God, the universe, whatever word you use for it's like, God wants me to have this experience? How am I going to learn from this? What is this forcing me to do? Like if you look at the different areas of life, like is this, like if it's, let's say you get cancer? So what am I supposed to learn? You know, right now, how am I going to use this to my advantage? For me, you know, with my background as a holistic chiropractor, I look at it like the health triangle, it's structural, biochemical one emotional, so when you remove the blocks, then the healing can happen. So, you know, maybe you need to exercise, maybe you need to get chiropractic care, massage therapy, yoga, like you need movement, you need to do things for your body, you might need surgery, biochemically. You know, everything we eat and drink becomes part of our body, even creams you put on your body like EMF, electromagnetic field, all these things that had an impact on our body. And the other one is our emotions, when we are not grateful. It decreases our health, like I have had many people come in my life who have cancer. And they all told me the ones that I was able to help them turn it around. And they said that cancer had been a great blessing for them because all the sudden these things that they were not doing for themselves before, they were not listening to their heart. Now they feel like I have nothing to lose and they start doing all of these things that were important for them. So sometimes it's about leaving a bad relationship or a bad job or, you know, moving in exactly the place I didn't want to move so you know our health can be a reflection of what's happening and a great place for us to play the game of life. Financial financial is all about self worth. So if you want to increase your self worth gratitude, that's why I love this work because every time you gain credit you you increase your self worth. Yeah, definitely grateful we decrease ourselves
Greg Voisen
well These are principles and things that we're talking about which I think many of the listeners know about the, it isn't about a knowing it's about practicing. And that brings me to this next question. You know, your book suggests a lot of deep level of reflection. I think many of us, me included many times in my life, I don't go to deep levels of reflection, you're moving through life, just trying to get done what you have to get done. And you say to yourself, What I want is reprieve. I don't want to actually dive deep into anything, I want to skip over it, because I might find out something that I don't really want to see. So I'm really just gonna go put in the backseat of the car, the trunk, and let it ride along for a while. So what practices or strategies do you recommend for individuals are starting the journey of we're gonna just gonna call it self awareness? Through heart centered conversations, that time is plural, not conversation, because if we're going to actually speak with this heart, and that is a deep reflection, right? That's a, hey, I want to hear what my heart has to say. I really want to understand it. How often do you think individuals out there are actually having a conversation with their heart? Probably not very often.
Dr. Lise Janelle
I find my clients, the more they do the work, the more they want to do the work. And they tell something that would have taken me a year to get over now takes me a month, something that was taking me a month now takes me a week, something that would have taken me a week takes me a day, something that would have taken me a day it takes me like the more you do it, because it just feels so good. When you are in there, that it's easy, it becomes really easy. Or, like I don't like being out of my heart. It doesn't feel good. So why should ice and we don't have to be afraid of anything like what you saying is so bang on. A lot of people are afraid of doing the cold called deep work. Because what if I discover something that I don't like, the only thing you're going to discover? If you do the deep work is you're worthy of love. You're gonna let go shoot huge Wait, a big illusion that came off and from when you were a little kid, like, I can't tell you the number because I do the mind body work that I do. Like a big grown up man who starts crying when I'm testing it on. I love myself. Why? Because when he was born, he was crying for mom. But Mum was in the room and he was in the nursery and she did not come and he created this false story that something was wrong with him and he wasn't worthy of love. And that worse, he should stop asking for what he wants, which is Mommy because I've asked for her. And if she doesn't come, like often hurts too much. So it's, it's an illusion, because I love it if I'm doing this with a man who's got a baby, and I asked, So do you think there's any time in your baby's life where you didn't respond to your baby when I knew he was crying? Yeah. Is it because you didn't love your baby? No. Is it because your baby is unworthy of love? No. And then like the big aha happens, when you know, they start to, you know, they say you can solve a paradox at the level the paradox was created. That's why I like using that trigger. I asked you know, as a parent looking at your own baby, what do you see? Then I bring them back into that level. It's like it's really beautiful. It's a beautiful thing to do. It's, it's not scary. Like it's for me. It's much scarier not to go deep than to go deep. And now, and especially men often are afraid of doing it. But I love working with men. Because once men get it, they like superpower. They start doing their work as they realize every time I do this actually become more powerful.
Greg Voisen
I always loved the work and you set you remind me and that's what I was looking for here. Not it's been a while ago since Byron Katie's been on the show and many other people know, but she had those four liberating questions because we used we make stuff up. We live in a world of MSU where we make it up, but I'm gonna repeat for the audience the questions and yours. you're alluding to the same thing. Question one, is it true? Can you absolutely know it's true? How do you react what happens when you believe that that thought and the last one who would you be without the thought. So the point here is this, you know, you're advocating this same deep reflection with the heart. And you have to ask the questions of the heart. Right? And so, you, you do all this deep work. And inside the book, you've got great questions for people. Looking ahead, how do you envision readers engaging with your book? And what kind of impact do you hope, conversation with the heart will have in the long run? And you said earlier, it was interesting when you quit your cushy job and came to do this, that you wanted to leave a legacy, or you aim to do this through this work, which was healing millions of people, right? Or if it's not millions, hundreds of 1000s or 10s of 1000s? It doesn't matter. The fact is, is that your work is healing people. What do you envision for people to get engaged with this book, to use this book, the long term results from the book and the legacy that you can leave from the book? So it's a four part question.
Dr. Lise Janelle
Okay, my legacy, yeah, I want to bring happiness in the world. Because that time when I opened up my heart, I was telling you at the beginning, where my hearts are open, it was like being in heaven. And when I came back down from that place, it was like, wow, this is amazing. So every day of my life have been working towards being in that state more all the time. You know, I think that's the path to enlightenment, I'm not enlightened yet. But more and more, I get to live from that place. So my legacy, I know if people, if people read this book, and, and, and do the exercise at the end of each chapters, I know that if people read this book and do the exercise, at the end of each chapter, they're going to have a much better connection with their heart. And they're going to start to feel really that they are worthy of love. This is, this is one part of my work. And the other part is the, my big chunk of work also is working with the subconscious mind, because there's the conscious part that also has to be connected with our heart. But even if you're connected with your heart, you have conditioned responses. And that's my book that's coming out with Jack Canfield, hopefully by the end of the year. So Jack has sold 600 million books. So hopefully, he will sell 1 million. I believe. So
Greg Voisen
it's interesting you say that, because tomorrow, my favorite hypnotherapist is I see him at three o'clock. And the subconscious mind is for those of you who are listening, and you understand this, it's so important to dig in deeply with someone helping you by the suggestions that are being made to understand what's going on the subconscious mind. And the blocks that you have, in that particular area. Are there specific exercises out of your book, because they're there, or practices that you'd recommend for readers to enhance their ability to have a meaningful conversation with their heart? Is there anything that pops up for you that you can, that you can actually tell them, that would be a good thing for them to do?
Dr. Lise Janelle
In my book, the biggest one you can do that will help you have a, you know, a really good conversation with your heart is gratitude for sure. If you can take the time to, to acknowledge what you're hurting from, and then go and ask yourself, how did it build my wings. So then that will really help you have a bigger picture. And the subconscious work like this is what I teach, like, that's part of the next book. And then those two things are actually super important. Because every time you let go of a subconscious belief, the same thing happens, you reconnect with yourself and you understand in your heart, not in your head that you are worthy of love. So the two parts are super important. I also have a tool called the best friend journal and you can download it best friend journal.com. And what you do is you write three to five things you can be really proud of that you've done that day. And then if you have any negative self talk, you write down why would I tell my best friend or my own child if they told me that you know, something negative about yourself about your life? How would you advise them so you write the solution for them, and then you reflect on how you're going to use it for yourself. So when you start coming from that place of trusting that you can always be there for yourself. it nurtures yourself and helps you feel a lot happier. When someone does something to you that you don't like, and you feel like this is done to mean that for me, you ask yourself who in my life right now feels the same way? Who feels the same way, because I've done something that makes them feel the same way I'm feeling. Because what it does is, when we are feeling that somebody is doing something to us, we feel like they are wrong. And we are right. So become self righteous by asking yourself, Where do I do the same thing? Do I do it to my spouse, to my kids, to my employees, to my clients, you know, and then we humble ourselves and we can go, okay, then it makes it even easier to say, All right, so what's the benefit to me that this is happening, there's, there's so many things that we can do to connect with the heart. But gratitude is key, for sure.
Greg Voisen
Well, that's a good point that you make, and nobody and we all can be reminded to have more gratitude more often about what's in our lives and what's manifested so far, regardless of our circumstances, the fact that we're breathing living human beings on this planet, you know, I tell people that are, you know, that are pretty, oh, let's just say average, you know, you got a car, you got gas in your car, you got money in the bank, you got a job, you know, you need to be grateful for that, because there's many parts in this world where people don't have any of that, right. And so all you have to do is compare and contrast a little bit. I love the Dalai Lama, because it's really about being compassionate, and really showing compassionate to the rest of compassion to the rest of the world. So Dr. Lee's, is there anything else you want to share with our audience, as we sum up our interview here, about conversations or conversation with the heart, or the work in generally, I know, you've got workshops, you've got a community, you've got discussion groups, you got people can sign up with you at your website, to take, have a session with you, but so that they could maybe accelerate their progress in this area, you're there to support them. So can you tell them how you they could be supported? And in what ways would be the best ways to reach you?
Dr. Lise Janelle
Yeah, for sure, you can contact my assistant in the office info at Dr. Nugent on that comment. If if I was someone out there right now, that's wondering what you can do to accelerate the results, get the book for sure. But I also have a seminar called extreme freedom. It's a two day retreat, where you get to learn how to open your heart, even to the biggest challenges you've ever had extreme gratitude. And then you spend a whole day creating a statement of purpose for your life. So that takes care of the conscious part of how you want to use your time. And then I have my own leisure dream life where I teach people how to do the subconscious work on themselves in all the different areas of life. So you learn for finance, for career, for health, for cravings, all of those different So by combining these two tools, and if people want more, you know, one on one, they can have one on one coaching with me with my coaches, I have I train I have like eating coaches, I've been trained by me. So there's all kinds of tools available to everybody that you know, and the price this is available, you can I'm sure you can find ways of affording all this.
Greg Voisen
Well, and one of the ways for our listeners to get there is conversation with the heart.com. There, you can learn more about the book, you can actually order the book right there online. Dr. Lee's also has her own website, this is the kind of more of the conversation with the heart. We're gonna put links to these websites so that people can get access to them. So look for it in the blog entry that we've got. Dr. Janelle, thank you so much for being on inside personal growth. It was a very fast 40 minute conversation. But I was really intrigued by what you had to say. I know my listeners were as well. Again, we'll have a link to inside the blogs to the book conversation with the heart. Also, there's an audio book for 995 and ebook for 995. And you get the paperback book for 1995. So you can go on that website and buy it there. And you can go to our personal website, learn more about her other services and so on. Thanks so much, Dr. Jenelle. Appreciate you. Thanks for the good work that you're doing.
Dr. Lise Janelle
Thank you. Thank you for allowing me to bring my message in the world. I really appreciate it.
Greg Voisen
Thanks, Namaste to you.
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Inside Personal Growth with Greg Voisen · Podcast 1097: The Value of Values with Daniel AronsonWelcome back to another episode of Inside Personal Growth! My guest for today is Daniel Aronson featuring his newly released book The Value of Values: How Leaders Can Grow Their Businesses and Enhance Their Careers by Doing the Right Thing.
Daniel is a business/sustainability thought leader, a strategist and a keynote speaker. He is also the Founder & CEO of Valutus – a company of experts in sustainability strategy, valuation, and impact. They use proprietary tools and data to help organizations quantify and capture dramatically more value from their sustainability and responsibility initiatives – in radically less time. They also help consulting firms and agencies offer these capabilities to their own clients.
For 25+ years, Valutus personnel have quantified the value of projects, processes, and impacts that others missed or thought unquantifiable. They have created the first comprehensive standard for plastic impact and plastic neutrality called True Plastic Impact (TPI) which already in use by a billion-dollar corporation. They have also developed unique, proprietary tools for dramatically accelerating processes such as materiality, carbon and water footprint, total impact, and science-based targets.
Relevant to this, Daniel created and published a book just last February 2024 entitled The Value of Values: How Leaders Can Grow Their Businesses and Enhance Their Careers by Doing the Right Thing. Daniel always believes in “acting on your values creates real value – for the business and the world.” Hence, The Value of Values trains leaders to respond smartly and credibly to today’s challenges, transforming how business can and should be done.
You may learn more about Daniel and his company Valutus by visiting their website here.
Thanks and happy listening!
You may also refer to the transcripts below for the full transciption (not edited) of the interview.
Interview Transcipt -Not EditedEmailDownloadNew TabGreg Voisen
Welcome back to Inside Personal Growth. This is Greg Voisen host of Inside Personal Growth. I think that a lot all my listeners know, sometimes podcasters have a faux pas. I recorded this podcast once before Daniel and I are doing it again because of my fault in in the record buttons. But I have Daniel Aronson from New York joining us. And we're going to be speaking about his new book, The Value of Values: How Leaders Can Grow Their Businesses and Enhance Their Careers by Doing the Right Things. Good day, Daniel, how you doing today?
Daniel Aronson
Good to see you again.
Greg Voisen
Yeah, it's good to see you. And sorry for actually having to do this again. But you know what, it's always better to the second time, so make sure that we get it right. This time. I'm gonna let my listeners know a little bit about you, Daniel. He's the founder of Valutus, v-a-l-u-t-u-s, you can actually get to his website at valutus.com. To learn more about the software that he has about how he works with people with values. The company specializes in creating value through sustainable and responsibility. He's the creator of the value values model. And the author of this book, which is an MIT Press 2024 He's helped leading companies identify and qualify or quantify over 2 billion and sustainable driven business value. And I think that's the biggest thing here is how Daniel helps companies identify how value plays such an important role in actually improving profitability of the company as well. He coined the term submerged value, which we're going to be talking about. And as I said, he's the author of he's also the creator of impact science, true plastic impact, materiality, science, and customer science. He's guest lectured at Harvard Business School and MIT Sloan sustainability lab and has written or been featured in over 100 articles and publication. And as an executive in residence at NYU Stern School of Business. He holds an MBA from MIT Sloan business management, and a BA with high honors from UC Berkeley. But he now lives in New York City, not in Berkeley anymore. So, well, that must have been a good time in Berkeley.
Daniel Aronson
It was a good time, every winter. I wonder why I left on occasion when I left the West Coast. Yeah, it was a good time.
Greg Voisen
Well, Berkeley is a city filled with people who want to also make a change. And they're, and they're allowing the world to allow themselves to be seen to do that. So and UC Berkeley is kind of known for its protest in writers and people they don't write, they're usually very peaceful, but at the same time, they have something they want to be heard. So I think it's a great school for that, if you're going to send your kids to UC Berkeley, be assured that they're going to get a phenomenal educational, but they're also going to expand their consciousness gravely. So it's a good thing.
Daniel Aronson
It's a bit of a different experience from MIT. I'll tell you.
Greg Voisen
Yes, that is, that's reserved and well, like, you don't want to start out your book challenges, misconception that acting on values, lowers profits. That's the old school, though, for businesses, because we're talking more about collaboration here, we're talking about identifying this. We're not talking about looking at people as human capital, you know, it's like, yes, that is a term that's used. But can you elaborate on why this belief persist among business leaders? And what inspired you to debunk the myth of what you're calling the value of values?
Daniel Aronson
I think the reason that it mostly persists is because people don't see all the ways that acting on values, creates business value. And that's what I call submerged value, and submerged values, typically four to 10 times as much as what they see. And if you see something lying around, and you think, yeah, that's like a $10. Bill, you're gonna work a lot less hard to pick it up. And if you think it's 100 And that's the problem is that people don't see how much it's really worth. And the reason that I wrote the book is two reasons, right? One is that businesses and the world are both worse off every minute that this misperception of how valuable values are persists. And the second is that people want to make a difference. Companies often want to make a difference, but they believe they can't afford to and you Turns out that's exactly backwards.
Greg Voisen
Well, and I want to echo what you're saying, because there's been a lot of discussion lately in my world around values. And purposely, I just did an interview called the cheap, Chief leadership officer, and the the importance of purpose in a business and values in a business. And I want you to talk a little bit more about submerged value. You know, submerged means that it's taking you don't see it, and like you said, people need to see it, to actually believe that, but your company allows people see it, to see it through measurement through measuring something, I think it's always been said, You can't change something you don't measure, right? Could you explain and this term, maybe a little bit more in depth and how it relates to the hidden benefits of some initiatives like combating climate change, or fostering, or the change or fostering inclusive work environments. I had a lady that was just on yesterday, from Bon Appetit management, wrote a book, you can't serve manure at lunchtime. Now, it sounded pretty interesting. But the reality is, is that most restaurant tears weren't looking at the values of the kinds of foods they were putting out and the sustainability and they weren't buying things locally. And what happened, his bone appetit, the owner got down. And this is a great story on the pig farmers for the manure, and the manure that's caused from that, and what's actually happening in counties in Virginia and other places with relation to the pollution associated with it. We also got into a conversation and this goes along with values, State of California passed Proposition two in January of this year, which was all around the house. And what kind of pork products are being served in restaurants. Now, we're a pretty progressive state. And her comment to me was, after that legislation passed, and I think this is interesting around values, she said, You didn't find any restaurants not being able to put bacon on the hamburgers. Right? It's how that bacon was accessed. Right? How those animals were treated. That's all around values.
Daniel Aronson
Yeah, that's absolutely right. Yes, that's right. And one of the things that people, I think that people realize is that people don't realize scuze me is that values help with the how, the what, of course, they you have to satisfy the customer, you have to operate well, you have to protect yourself against risks, and you have to attract and keep the right employees. But values help in all those were areas with the how we actually call those four areas, core customers operations, risk and employees. And if you if you look at what's available, you get all these questions that seems so clear, like, Who wouldn't want an extra 1530? Or percent more customer preference, right? Who wouldn't want a four times or five times greater chance of being an innovation leader in their operations? Who wouldn't want to better respond to risks and disruptions when they happen? And who wouldn't want 50% better retention and engagement, according to some research from last year for employees? And I mean, who wouldn't want these things? And values are part of that how right like, like, you're saying, you still have to deliver the food that the customer ordered. But how do you deliver it? And how do we make money delivering it? That's where values come in?
Greg Voisen
What do you think? Why do you think that values have taken the backseat of the bus, and are basically just riding along versus CEOs pushing profits productivity in the front seat of the bus? Now I do realize they have stakeholders and stockholders that they've got to report to. And most of these companies and not even big companies, small companies do. We are an entrepreneur. But why is it that the mindset has been so against bringing this to the front of the best to be recognized as an important profit center? Because they haven't know your company helps them measure it. So it should actually now be quite a bit more valuable because they can measure it. So why is it always been shifted to the rear of the bus? You know,
Daniel Aronson
that's a good question. And I have a couple of reasons why I think it's the case, but just put an exclamation point on the point you made. I've been working on this for over 25 years. And in that time, show me the value show me the business case, show me the money has been one of the top problems and barriers that people have. This was true a quarter century ago. And when IBM did their CEO survey a couple of years ago, they found the number one barrier for CEO action was ROI. And when KPMG did their survey just a couple of months ago, he found the number one barrier to sustainability action was a combination of capacity, and ROI. And of course, if you can show ROI, you can get more capacity. That's kind of the history right? The history is that this has been a problem. And the question you're asking is why? I think that's a good question. I got two reasons. One is that people often kind of split the topic of work from the topic of personal. And as a result, they think something that matters to me as a person can also matter to my business. That doesn't make sense. But that's kind of an unspoken assumption. And in particular, with values people think of this as the realm of fables and not finance.
Greg Voisen
Well, have you made it, Daniel, so that a CFO of a company based on your company's value notice I can actually measure the exact financial impact of this? In other words, is that what you do?
Daniel Aronson
Yes, because the short answer, every CEO,
Greg Voisen
that's what they want to do they want to they want to measure the value of values, right? Yeah, that's right. And and that's what you guys do. Now, you said in your research, you calculated that, and you said this a little bit. But the benefits of acting on these values is four to 10 times more than initially believed. Now, if that is true, and I don't disbelieve you, could you share some examples or case studies that illustrate the concept, and demonstrate that since this substantial impact of a values driven initiative, I mean, I go back to the days of Richard Barrett, and he called it liberating the corporate soul. You know, he is to have that it wasn't Maslow's chart, but it was kind of like Maslow's tourney kind of went like this, then out like this, right. And the reality is, when we could get a company aligned when I went through all these things, in values, right, we got alignment, we would always see enhanced profitability, hands productivity, enhanced innovation, enhanced creativity, you take every area there is and it was enhanced, but our people's personal values, frequently, not always aligned with what the company's values are. And if they are on, how do you address it? Yeah,
Daniel Aronson
two things. One is that the values that I'm talking about the ones I've talked about in the book, are values around making the world better, and improving the lives of those who live in it. Right, benefiting the world and those who live in it. That's the values I'm talking about. Because there's plenty of good values, discussion and 1000s of years of books and everything else about personal values. But the thing is that those personal values are not the ones that I talk about, because they tend to be more separated from these controversies about what's good for the business. What's the value of the business? Like, if you do something environmentally, or socially good, is that good or bad? And that it turns out is a different question than, you know, what are people's personal say, religious values or philosophical facts?
Greg Voisen
Well, let me ask you, sorry, I want to hear, interject here and I apologize for this. But I'm thinking of Patagonia and I'm saying, Hey, you had Yvon Chouinard, whose values? Right? Here's the CEO of Patagonia, whose personal values were very clear to everybody that worked in the organization and many people were attracted to work there as a result of him carrying the lamp light. Right, I'm gonna save the world. I'm gonna do this differently. And don't you find it important that that CEO truly Eat a lamp light so that we can carry those values and people can be aligned to take on initiatives. I'm gonna say this in particular, initiatives, like Patagonia has done to source, cotton's and materials from the right places to pay people living wages, didn't matter if it's tea, or it's cotton, or whatever it is, I think these are some of the things we're talking about to say, hey, that brings them value of Patagonia. And that's all they want. Zappos, Patagonia, you name it, there's plenty of them. Right? Yeah.
Daniel Aronson
And those are, in fact, the kinds of values that people do join organizations for, for the benefits of the world. Right? So there are some organizations, you know, religious organizations, philosophical organizations, where people join for the personal values, like, I really liked that this person is Christian, or Buddhist or, or what have you. But the things that you're talking about, about making a difference in the world, really have incredible broad appeal, right? Paying people with living rage, people can see, oh, I understand how that helped me leave a better legacy for the problem. And it turns out that doing things like that, also help the business. And there are a few different ways, but they basically come down to how do you see? How do you feel? And where do you look? And just as an example, what do you see, IBM had a factory that was making semiconductor chips, and they decided to reduce their water use. Now, this factory been in operation for a long time, it's very competitive industry, obviously, they've been working on making it more efficient for decades. But nonetheless, as they looked at the water use, they thought, you know, we could do this, we could do that they cut water, use 29%. But number one that was worth three quarters of a million dollars a year, which is money that they hadn't seen before. Number two, the non water savings, productivity, energy use, treatment costs, and so on, were four times as much. That's what I mean by submerged value. Submerge value is four times as much. And that's why one of the managers there said, When you see the way we see, you don't see water in the pipes, you see dollar signs. That's the connection I'm trying to make with the book.
Greg Voisen
Well, you are and you're doing a great job with it. And I want to state that, you know, not every company listening out there today, some do have chief sustainable officers. And I remember and sustainability, because we're talking about how sustainable is this and I went to a conference not too long ago, where the sustainability officer for Starbucks showed up and spokes. And we heard that Starbucks was going to be requiring more people to come in with their own cups and do things where there wouldn't be this massive amount of pollution or waste as a result of this, right. And there are people inside of companies and you know this because you work with them, that their job is to find a way to improve the environment and lessen the impact on the globe. And at the same time, give better customer experience. I have yet to see that at Starbucks. And I'm not pointing out to them. But the reality is, is that there's an area where the customers that consume their products are probably trying to be pretty environmentally sensitive, you would hope. I wouldn't say that screw all the time. But it is interesting how you're in this conundrum of how do we do this? How do we implement it? And then how do we see this emerge value? Your example about the semiconductors at savings, three quarters of a million dollars in water is a great example. And your book emphasizes the importance of responding smartly and credibly, to today's challenges, plotting championships out there. In your view, what are some of the most pressing challenges facing businesses today? And how can leaders leverage the value of values to address them? It doesn't matter if I'm making tennis shoes at Nike, or I'm selling coffee at Starbucks, there's a lot of challenges at worst that they're still faced with.
Daniel Aronson
Yeah, that's That's very true. And basically, challenges get broken down into a few different areas. One, obviously, is the change in the customer population and expectations. And this is like, Do customers care more about the sustainable responsible choice than they used to? Yes, even when I've talked to you executives to say yeah, they don't care that much, almost universally, they say They're gonna care more three years from now more five years from now and so on. And in fact, we've conducted experiments, half a million data points across four continents showing causally that this is the case. Then there's the question of resources. And this is part of actually, I guess, I should say that we have kind of a three, a three part, framework for this resources, relationships, and routines are all necessary for business to succeed, and they're all under different kinds of pressure. Resources, are things like, are we able to get the coffee beans, we need to use your example of coffee? Or are we able to get our ships through the Panama Canal, for our shipping, this early this year, there was traffic was down over 20% because of low water. Now, even with the things that they've done to sort of reduce water consumption elsewhere, but what they're still going to be down 15 20% of shipping. And then there's also the routines. And this is where, you know, what happens when there's a major disruption. In the world, like things, a ship gets stuck in the Suez Canal, or there's a natural disaster, which is happening more and more often. There's a great article, written in Australia called what is a once in 100 year event, and why do they keep happening so often? When you have values playing a bigger role in the organization, the great places to work organization found that people are more likely to respond better, respond more productively, and to get through that disruption more successfully. The companies that did worst in the recession, the great recession 2007 2009 At lower scores, and the companies that soared over the recession chasm, as they called it, were the ones that did better at supporting different types of employees that connect to those employee wellbeing initiatives that leaders have. That's how businesses can respond is to see the threats to these three different areas, resources, relationships and routines. And to put values initiatives in place to support those
Greg Voisen
were so true, because it recalls in my mind, a social scientist that was on here. And we were talking about many of the same things we're talking about right now. And she is very well known for I think one of her books was the bellwether, the watchtower, whatever it was, but it was about predicting predictive analytics. And that part of it about, hey, you know, are insurance companies still going to insure the buildings in South Florida, as the waters start to rise? Are insurance companies still going to insure houses in California, with the fire risk, we're seeing it being pulled out now, right and left and in our state and people up in arms about it? You're right, it's the ability to, as Rita McGrath said, see around corners, kind of use these predictive analytics to look at this. And in your case, you can look at this based on predicting this also with the values. And you know, I think the two sciences are really intertwined. Most importantly, and I'd like to say you, you discuss the role of ethics, and responsibility in shaping modern business practices. I couldn't agree with you more. The question I always ask this is this personally, sometimes? Where are those personal morals and ethics go? From some leaders, and I don't know if we pointed this out last time, but one example was the situation with Volkswagen versus the situation with Samsung, right, qualifying and blew it. Samsung did a great job had great orators for their, for their phone, even though they were melting afterwards. But I'll tell you, leaders ensure that the ethical considerations are all integrated in every aspect of their organization, because it's, this is really imperative if people aren't transparent, aren't open by operating from an ethical foundation. It can really be a cat catastrophic event for a company.
Daniel Aronson
Yeah, that's absolutely right. And in fact, Volkswagen shows that that quite correctly, because several of their executives went to jail. Their largest dealership in Germany went under because the the, the reduction in the resale value of These vehicles that they lied about was so great that they actually had to declare bankruptcy. Because the assets that they had weren't worth what they said they were worth what they expected them to be worth. And of course, there are hundreds of millions of fines and all that other stuff. That's one of the things that has to happen is, is the bringing in of ethics. And there are two ways. One is, and they're actually both usable by individuals and organizations. The fundamental question is, where do I want to be in the future? And who do I want to be? What am I not willing to do? Now for decades, people have said, you know, write your eulogy, what would you want said at your funeral, but it still works. You can actually see when people project themselves 510 years and future in their career, or into the future for their funeral, you can actually see it change the decisions they make today. The second thing is that someone once said to me, what is it that you're not willing to accept? This is a question for both businesses and people. What are the lines, they're not willing to cross because Volkswagen could not have had that much of a problem? If there hadn't been a bunch of people willing to sign off? There's no way one or two engineers could have done that, without the knowledge or acceptance or turning a blind eye of everybody else. That's the kind of thing that both individuals and companies can do. Where do I want to be? And who do I want to be? Who am I unwilling to be? And what am I unwilling to do in terms of crossing lines?
Greg Voisen
What I probably brings a very important question that wasn't in our last podcast, but might be to this podcast around a current political structure and situation here in the United States on ethics and values. How is it from your standpoint, Daniel, that we could have somebody now, and why that for many people in this country, is totally unethical, and doesn't carry any values and run for president again. And you know, this is my show, I can say this is so the reality is, is no matter what Mr. Trump thinks, I don't see how people can't see that. I guess maybe I'm coming from a different viewpoint. And I'm not asking you to agree or disagree. I'm looking for a statement from you. Do you believe that this country could be run by somebody in an ethical and moral way, having those values and ethics that he cares?
Daniel Aronson
I think that one of the things that's happening here and around the world, is this erosion of trust in institutions and people and in politics, and you have these anti Democratic leaders, these leaders who really are not supportive of democracy, things like saying the press is the enemy of democracy, or the press is the enemy of the people. That's the kind of thing that breaks down the social fabric that we need here. And it's possible for a lot of people to want that kind of candidate. It's always a bit surprising, when you see it elsewhere. When you see, you know, Bolson arrow or you see leaders in other places, it's like, well, how does that happen? The simple fact is that there are people who are attracted to this.
Greg Voisen
Yeah, they say, well, they're saying disenfranchised people are the ones that and that word gets used a ton. But I'm saying there are a lot of people that feel like somebody else did it to them, they're not taking responsibility for their own actions on what happens in their life. And I get that list, you can blame the government, you can blame your employer, you can blame anybody. But until you step up and take 100% responsibility for yourself, which is where you're coming from, with this book. And I'll say that unequivocally because you don't write a book on values, if you're not really gonna look at your own values and the values of the companies that you choose to work for or with. I don't care which one it is. I do want to comment on that or
Daniel Aronson
I think that's right. I think there are two important things. One is that people underestimate the threat to democracy and how important that is and companies need to step up and say, you know, disagreement about tax threads. That's part of the process, disagreement about whether democracy is valuable. That's beyond the pale, right. And, for example, if you do that, you can look back later with pride and what you've done. Here, again, an example is IBM, in the 1950s, they wanted to put a new facility in North Carolina, and at the time, North Carolina allowed segregation, segregation was the law of the land in North Carolina. And they communicated that they weren't gonna put the factory there, unless it was integrated. And, in fact, North Carolina back down, and they had an integrated factory there. In the 100 year anniversary, IBM told their story. And this was one of the things they highlighted. This kind of, you know, we might disagree about this trade policy, or this patent policy or whatever. They didn't highlight small disagreements or technical issues like that. They highlighted that they had a strong value, that this value led them to refuse to accept status in North Carolina. And one of the things that's dangerous is that a lot of companies a don't realize the threat to democracy. And democracy is good for capitalism. Democracy is good for business. Can you imagine if you had the best product, the best service, the best price, but the contract went to the company that had the best political connections? Right? That would not be America. And there was
Greg Voisen
no compromising on this? In other words,
Daniel Aronson
yeah, there's a, there's a need for companies and individuals to be courageous, to be able to look back and say, You know what, we were courageous. And we feel good about it. The way that IBM can look back with pride on its courage in the 50s.
Greg Voisen
Well, an example we all can listen to this podcast here being recorded on March 18th. And look at Mr. Putin being elected for another six years, and his only opponent being killed just weeks prior to the elections. Kind of an ironic, but he talked about a threat to democracy. It was so is he in many of the leaders as we know, who stood up and I'm saying leaders, and attempted to make the change. Many are assassinated, many are no longer with us, as a result of the test of power and money. Lots of people with lots of money, and lots of people and lots of power, do things sometimes they shouldn't do. And a lot of times they shouldn't do. But that was a that was an offshoot from this interview, but an important one, and you know, your company value test, you bring a wealth of experience in the measurement and analytics of this and in in your book, how does the background and the measurement and form an approach or your approach to evaluating the impact of values driven initiatives? So let's just say XYZ company has an initiative to somehow save energy, because they want to make the world a better place. And so they're saying our commitment, I think you could say Amazon has one, they said, We're going to have 50% of our vehicles are going to be EVs. Okay. And that's supposed to happen by 2000. And whatever the date is, well, that's a huge investment. It's a billion, I think, billion dollar commitment to buy all those vehicles, right. So do you think now as somebody who measure values, that Amazon is taking the right direction, and can they measure the return on that investment in so many different ways?
Daniel Aronson
Yeah, I mean, I can't speak to the specifics of Amazon's calculation, but I think that the investment in EVs makes a lot of sense in a lot of ways and when I've seen it evaluated elsewhere, the answer is there's a lot of value because EVs Of course, you're somewhat less exposed to the fluctuations in price of fuel than you are if you're on the market for diesel fuel. In addition to that, EVS tend to have lower cost to operate. Now it depends on the specific Evie and so on, but tends to tends to be lower cost to operate an Eevee And, of course, there are changes in the context. Like in a lot of places. In Europe, for example, a lot of center cities have either passed or are contemplating banning gasoline powered vehicles from the Center City between certain hours to clear the air and for their citizens. So an Eevee protects you against that risk, right? On the one hand, its cost to operate is often lower. On the other hand, it gives you free insurance against these kinds of changes. So you don't have to figure out what to do if these things change, and suddenly your vehicles are worth less than you thought they were. And it's a, it's an example of a tangible commitment that the company makes. The more there's a tangible commitment, the more competitors, customers and employees can say, you know, what, they're not just talking about it, because you know, talk is cheap. Right? Right. Like they're doing something. Now, there's a lot more that could be done, right, the supply chain, the recyclability, the sourcing of the products, a lot of these things are a bigger deal, a much bigger deal in a lot of cases than the last mile delivery. But the idea is not to stop with something visible, but to see what's the most important. And to drive that through the business?
Greg Voisen
Well, you know, you measuring something like that, I think we'd have a huge impact, to create a report for the employees of what the these are actually done to reduce the pollution, to increase our efficiency, to reduce the impact on the environment, all the kinds of things that you could measure, and that you do measure, to actually put that in a report to all the stakeholders inside of a company to really understand that the value of a billion dollar investment was going to have a $10 billion return on investment, because in the end, as CFO was the one who wants to know, hey, if I'm gonna put a billion dollars out, what do we actually see in return? Now, you have a subtitle on your book that makes sense enhance in careers by doing the right thing. How can individuals leverage values based leadership to advance their own professional growth and development? Anyway,
Daniel Aronson
ways, the first way is they can show their own values on resumes, and interviews, and so forth. There's evidence that if you put say volunteering on your resume, you're more likely to get a call back. The second way is they can search for companies that share their values about doing good for the world, and those who live in. Because those companies are better positioned for the future, they're more likely to be successful, they're more likely to stay successful. And you want to be in a good company, one that people really like versus one has more risk, or people don't like as much even if you decide to leave. The third thing is that leadership matters for careers and values matter for leadership. 2000 years ago, Aristotle talked about the three pillars of persuasion, ethos, pathos, and logos. Ethos has the same root as the word ethics. And as a number of people have said, values help attract the best people. And LeVar Burton, the actor, director, and host said he couldn't follow people who didn't have a shared sense of ethics and weren't authentic to them. And that's true of an awful lot of people.
Greg Voisen
Yeah, you know, and I remember you said levar, Burton, right. Yeah, yeah. As you said that I went right back to the roots. So that was a long time ago. And you know, it was interesting, just the night before last, as many of our listeners know, Oprah stepped down from weightwatchers, and came out regarding some drugs that she used to actually advocate for weight loss and weight loss as a disease. And, you know, I was thinking about the controversy. But she did the right thing, she actually took all her shares in weightwatchers, and gifted them to a foundation to a foundation. So it kind of ease the impact. But when you really looked at her values or values worth right on to do what she did and become, I would say clean and transparent about how she lost all of this weight and the fact that there should be no shame or no guilt with that. And I think I hold up people like that, who have strong values that are actually doing things in the public eye and are doing them correctly. So it's very well thought out very well strategically planned. But and also, I would say pretty well executed. Now, your book advices for transformation and how business is conducted. And I think that is a key factor here. That's what I was just saying about Weight Watchers and Oprah how is the business being conducted? What changes do you hope to see in the business landscape as a result of leaders embracing the values and values, because this is all about how we do what we do?
Daniel Aronson
I think two things, number one more visibility inside business, to the importance of values to all the submerged areas that it matters. And number two engagement around so that some of the critical things like climate like society, and like democracy, these are areas where businesses need to engage, because they're incredibly important. And as the, the CEO of this leadership magazine said, some years ago, in the US businesses wanted free speech rights, and they got them through court cases. But with rights come responsibilities, that's the way it always has been. And the responsibility is to take the influence the power, and the capabilities that business have, and to use them to be more successful in a way that's good for the world and those who live in.
Greg Voisen
Very well put. Now to kind of wrap up our podcast today. What message or takeaways, do you believe that the readers of your book are going to gain from the values and values? And how do you envision the book, making a positive impact on the businesses and the leaders, really, not only just in our country, but worldwide, because this book is actually going to be bought by everybody in every country, right? And they have to make some decisions. And I think after reading this book, and seeing how your company value test.com, actually measures values and can measure it. And these submerged values, which they literally aren't paying attention to, you shine light on you hold the lantern up and say, hey, here is something that's very real. It's almost like, you know, Daniel, you are making the invisible visible. Right. And, and you are because you're measuring something. And that's usually what makes the invisible visible.
Daniel Aronson
Yeah, I what I hope that happens is a couple of things. One is that people stop not measuring and not seeing the value. Because, as Professor John Sturman MIT says, if something matters, and you don't measure it, you're giving it the only value it can't possibly have. That is zero. And that's why we offer measurement to clients and to customers. But also, people can do this just from the book, there's a whole section about how you can see things out there. They do this in their own lives. In the book, I retell the story of the boy who cried wolf, to talk about the business value of those ethics. And the second thing is that I hope people will be able to combine the things that matter to them personally, and their business and work lives. Because we spent a lot of time at work. We spent a lot of time thinking about commuting to and from and getting a job and working in it. That work should be something that we can be proud of inside something that is making the world better. And that is benefiting those who live in it.
Greg Voisen
Well, I can tell my listeners and I'm gonna hold off. We're gonna have a link to this. We'll also have a link to the website value, value test, valu T U. S, but that is the website for Daniel, great book. Daniel, you are honored to interview because you get things so clearly articulated across to the public, everybody go out and get a copy of the book. And if you don't buy the book, go to his website. He's got blog entries. It's got all kinds of things that you can read about the importance of this and also how he does what he debts and then pick up the phone call him send him an email. It's right there. Contact us to learn more about what he does because I guarantee you that people that listen to the show the whole concept of your submerged value. Daniel can make that invisible visible for you and you can really see the value and if you do have to report to the CFO. I guarantee you there's a measurement as to how much this is going to benefit you and your customers this thanks for being on inside personal growth sharing your words of wisdom and your ability to bring that invisible to visible illness.
Daniel Aronson
Thanks, Greg! Really appreciate it.
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Inside Personal Growth with Greg Voisen · Podcast 1019: Cleanlogic with Isaac ShapiroMy guest for this episode is the founder of Cleanlogic, Isaac Shapiro.
Cleanlogic is a social enterprise that makes beauty and household cleaning products. Yet more than that, Isaac’s passion in hiring individuals with disabilities is part of Cleanlogic’s rich history. In 2006, they launched their “Brands with Braille” mission which was inspired by Isaac’s mother, Bea, who lost her sight as a child.
Moreover, Cleanlogic is committed to offering the highest quality bath and body accessories. They believe that there is a power in being nice and clean—because when you put “nice” and “clean” together, you have the foundation of a better body, a better world, and a better future.
If you want to know more about Isaac and his company Cleanlogic, you may click here to be directed to their website. You may also see and shop their products in this link.
I hope you enjoy my engaging interview with Isaac Shapiro. Happy listening!
You may also refer to the transcripts below for the full transciption (not edited) of the interview.
Interview Transcipt -Not EditedEmailDownloadNew TabGreg Voisen
Well, welcome back to Inside Personal Growth. This is Greg Voisen, the host of Inside Personal Growth. And many of my listeners know, Isaac that I go to the natural products West Expo every year. And I always find very interesting people and interesting companies there because there's just so many of them, many of them trying to do good for the world like you are. And those are the ones that I try and pick up on. Not somebody that's just trying to shove another product down into the world, but somebody who's wants to do good. We have Isaac Shapiro on the other end of the line, joining us from clean logic, and they're based in New York. Good day to you, Isaac, how are you?
Isaac Shapiro
Well, hello, Greg, nice to see you again. And thank you for having me on your podcast.
Greg Voisen
Well, I'm glad we got you on, we had to kind of keep figuring out our calendars to get something going. But we did get it done. And it's a pleasure having you on. And for all of you who are interested and learning more, we'll put a link up. It's cleanlogic c-l-e-a-n-l-o-g-i-c.com. Very easy to get to very beautiful website, well done, Isaac, and you there you can learn about the creek clean logic lines, the ecofriendly affiliation set and everything that they've got going. But I think it is as important or more important, is you know how this company got going. And so, Isaac, if you would tell us a little about the inspiration behind clean logic, how you got this company started. And kind of you put your mission out on the on the website, very big and bold. And I liked that. So that these individuals who are listening today can understand more, not only about your product, but really what you're doing to help the world.
Isaac Shapiro
Yeah, and I think it all started with my passion to travel the world. And my senior year in college, had an idea to be an export import company. And so we started with products from South America and Hispanic foods, frozen fish, and cleaning products. And so that was, as you started up in college and learning where you fit. You know, that's where we started to get our business acumen. And in 2006, my right before I met my business partner, we wanted to continue to expand our line. And we created clean logic as a solution around solving the rough exfoliation of loofahs that my mom always had in her shower, or a lot of the products are plastic made around the mesh sponges or even the Korean class. So we really wanted to focus on bringing in something unique, that was our stretch fiber technology, and where you can exfoliate on a daily basis. So it's been a little bit of a journey, as we were serial entrepreneurs and trying to figure out or products, but really, in 2014 is where we really started to focus our business more on clean logic and being exfoliating experts.
Greg Voisen
Well, you know, people listening to this show, there's probably many of them out there that don't use a loofah to exfoliate their skin. I was one of them until I ran into you. I tried them before I really had and you gave me a sample to take home. And I have to admit, it's got a little handle. It's unique. It's very great on the skin. In other words, it's not as rough some of them have eyes had before had been rough. Speak with us a little bit if you would, I'd say because obviously your company has done a lot of research in this, about exfoliation about how important it is. I mean, I go to a dermatologist, and I'll tell you I don't know if this does anything for skin cancers. But one of my other doctors has said that I'm the dermatologists cutting board. Because I have had literally basal cell and squamous cell carcinomas that removed many, many times because I'm fair complected and I ride a bike a lot. But tell us a little bit about exfoliation. Tell us about your product. Why should people really do this? I don't think enough of the world is really doing it.
Isaac Shapiro
Yeah, well, if you think about the evolution of exfoliation, you know, with the Turkish bathhouse and the Korean culture where they start at age two. When you look at where we tried to accomplish, we wanted to tie our product to soap and so we know A lot of people use mesh sponges that are the plastic mesh balls that you see in every store. And those create lather. But when you look at what we're doing, we're creating a product that's a unique fabric that we manufactured, to actually gently exfoliate the skin daily. And so what that allows you to do is to use your favorite so, but to remove the dead skin cells, so think about you know, the skin is your largest organ on your body, you think about you know, snakes and how they change out there. So this is how we look at exfoliation, this is a way to continue to rejuvenate your skin, and it's not so abrasive on your skin, we've also created sensitive skin. So it's not as a full ending, it's a bit more silky. So when you look at the Japanese culture, they're very big in bathing, and using more of a silk base product. But we still have our nylon loop fibers that create the exfoliating fabric. And so another thing that is important in thinking about the raw material we're using, we're using, we're a cotton so because we're a fabric, you know, think about it as wearing clothing on your skin, whereas a lot of the stuff that people are using, it's plastic based and so that doesn't really exfoliate rejuvenate the skin.
Greg Voisen
So is that one of the reasons that put you in this category of beaking? Being ecofriendly? Because you are using fabric? You're not? Again, I mean, there are fabrics that are nylon as well. How are you sourcing the actual LUFA itself? And then what are the materials that are going into it? Because my listeners would want to know? And as far as sustainability, how long does one of these last? And then when I discard it, is their ability for it to compost someplace? Or what's the factors there Cradle to Cradle? Yeah, well,
Isaac Shapiro
just to understand our clean logic brand, we have four collections, our bath and body, our detox, which is our charcoal infused line in our sport line, which is more gender neutral, but geared towards, you know, after a workout, more men, so a little bit darker colors, in what we really, really what we're positioning that is the exfoliation, you can continue to reuse your product. But where we are really positioning ourselves in leading the way in terms of sustainability is with our clean logic sustainable line and infusing cotton, then part of what our strategy around the organic cotton is we're using it in terms of being control union certified. So that's where it gives visibility and certification of where our organic cotton and that it is FDA certified. So that's where we've really positioned ourselves in sustainability, for clean logic. And another aspect that we're looking at sustainability is how we are diversifying our supply chain, because we also look at what your impact is on the environment. And so one of the things that we're doing in majority of this category is made in China, we're really leveraging our ability to build factories, so we own the factory in China. But as we make another initiative to be more sustainable, we're making the product here in the US, and actually looking to set a goal where 75% of our workforce be people and individuals with disabilities. So when we look at sustainability, you know, there's more than just like, hey, what ingredients we're looking at, even, you know, the environmental impact, and how we're trying to continue to improve our core line, which I had mentioned, and then our sustainable line where we're trying to really set the so you're
Greg Voisen
moving toward it, you probably aren't ready out there. But bringing the labor a little closer here, even though the product may cost a little more, I understand, but to have a factory either in the state of New York or some state someplace where the labor is probably pretty inexpensive. But at the same time, you know, there's a story behind the story and every product at clean logic has Braille packaging, and you're in you know, your mother is blind. And that inspired you I'm certain to do this. Why is it in then if you hire the blind or visually impaired people to work in your production lines? You're putting people to work. You also are funding nonprofits or do you have your own nonprofit that you have created at this point, Isaac. Yeah, we
Isaac Shapiro
have our own nonprofit called the inspiration foundation. It's a family foundation that my business partner and I founded to help fund technology grants were blind agencies are nonprofits to sort of the blind or visually impaired are providing tech training to use adaptive technology to gain employment. So that's where, where we've been able to work with our foundation and partner with other nonprofits to help them with their technology needs.
Greg Voisen
Interesting. So clean logic, besides being ecologically friendly, using cotton, what I noticed in the use as a product, is when you get it wet your product, it's not like any other LUFA. When you get it wet, yours is more pliable, it feels better on the skin, yet it's still doing the same job. Your brand is known for using these natural and organic products. How do you ensure the quality of these products that are kind of being put in here, you said, you're looking to the source of where all of this is coming from, and that you've now found new sources and new ways of actually making these products to make them more environmentally friendly? When somebody number one, let's just talk about the product for a second itself. Once I've used it up, and I need to throw it away and get a new one because I know it's not doing the job? How many uses? Can I use it? How long can I use it for body washings? And two, how do I know when it's time to actually discard it and get another one? So
Isaac Shapiro
We always love this question, because it is a personal preference. Just like when you use your toothbrush at home, they recommend when it goes away in terms of color, how it feels on your teeth, or a kitchen sponge, it really is a personal preference, but they are products are reusable, since it is a fabric people to wash it. Most people that we see in terms of the average consumer, you know, is changing out their product every two to six months, when you look at our product, you know, really, we try to make sure if you're exfoliating, you know, you get dead skin cells in there. So you really recommend to change it out, you know, every three to six months, depending on the preference, because I do know, you know, reusability is important for other people. And then there's other people that are germaphobes that are changing every 30 days. And you see a lot of the recommendations for the mesh fund is to change every 30 day. But that is an advantage with our product, especially for people that aren't eco conscious is that you can wash the product. So you
Greg Voisen
can actually put it in the washing machine, take it out and reuse it again. And until you feel like maybe it's lost some of its ability to exfoliate your skin. Which is good to know. Now this product fits in. I'm just going to say the beauty industry, right? It's like okay, I would assume people that do like later today I'm having a facial, right. So I would assume the lady that does the facials knows all about exfoliation. I'm making an assumption here, but the industry is evolving. You see it evolving, or using new products or using new things I was just telling you about? Solid soaps, right false solid shampoos, I should say, where is it? Where is it going? Particularly in terms of sustainability and responsibility to the environment? I do know that the solid shampoo market is growing exponentially to get rid of plastics in the environment, right? And it's doing a good job when we were talking about a million plastic bottles a minute that are literally being discarded in the US into some trash somewhere. Right. So tell us a little bit about where you think this industry is going. What do you see on the horizon? Well, what we
Isaac Shapiro
see in this category it was very commoditized and we entered in in 2006 So 90% of the sales came from that mesh plastic sponge then what I think at some point, you know there's going to be an evolution around you know, is it the next plastic straw where you know people want to get away from it. There's other pieces that you could do to you know make it more environmentally friendly which we're working on. But we're really focused on is getting people to respect and use a bath clean logic best skincare tool as part of your everyday beauty regimen. So when you think about the lotions and potions, and you see you're going to get a facial. Well you can go in today and Target or even Walmart and see 50 to $100, you know, silicone vibrating machine. So what we see is the tool market is becoming kind of a next part of the liquid routine, and maybe you're not going to have so many lotions and potions. And, you know, maybe we can come up with a way to track you know, using less product that you're putting in a plastic bottle. But in reality, what we see is people coming to our exfoliating category, making it part of the everyday beauty routine. And then since our product is more reusable, you know, being able to cut back on the amount of plastic mesh sponges that are sold. And that's what we're seeing today, about three years ago, we saw and we did an area where we had 22% of our sales came from our exfoliators. Today, it's over 40% of our sales in 50% come from our mash punches. So we continue to trade off the coast customer and bring them into using our products as part of their everyday beauty routine.
Greg Voisen
I would say that is important. It's like an education process. You know, and I know when I met you at the show, and I'll just say this speaking for probably many of the listeners out there. You can exfoliate, arms, hands, legs, all these areas of your body by using your product, which I do. But when it comes to the face, and actually taking it and scrubbing the face, some of us have some pretty sensitive skin, especially that's been exposed to the sun, as frequent as my hands and you can actually see that about my skin on this camera. I find that challenging. What do you have for individuals that maybe don't want something as rough that they can use on the face? That they can actually get the same benefits from?
Isaac Shapiro
Sorry, I have a barking dog behind me. I'm trying to get that.
Greg Voisen
That's okay. I'm sure you heard the question.
Isaac Shapiro
Yeah, I heard the question. So when you think about sensitive skin, you know, we have created a couple products in terms of facial care. So when you think about sensitive skin, we do have makeup remover cloths, on one side where you can remove the makeup, and then you can gently exfoliate. So it's like I said a much softer, almost like a silk type feeling to our dual texture facial buffers on there. So those are where we, you know, know, it's important because people are using liquid to exfoliate. But this is just another way, especially as we know, the younger generation is moving away from like cotton balls and right using more of a makeup remover cloth that's more sustainable to the environment.
Greg Voisen
Now use sell these kits. And these kids have all kinds of different products in them. And people when you go to the website, where can my listeners get this what major retailers now? Are you in? The website is a great place is it sold on Amazon, I noticed that you're giving a 20% off for the first order, which is pretty common. People do that? Would they be better off to go to your website? Can they get it at a local retailer? Can they get it on Amazon explain the distribution right now of that, because you have a big presence on social media, when people when you go to his website, I'm just gonna say this, it's extremely well done. It's easy to shop at and checkout and have them just send it to you direct. But they might want to know the other places they can go.
Isaac Shapiro
Yeah, and I'm gonna start nationally, there. So Amazon obviously most of us using it today, we do a three pack size there so that that's where we know the customers buying more of like more than single pack. So that's obviously sold nationally and internationally. And then we are in Walmart on there and then we're at Sprouts. So when you take a look at a lot of our sustainable line, you will find us at majority of the national retailers around the United States like mothers and moms in some of those regional areas. So those are really where we you know, see ourselves being true, it's accessible and then we are the majority of like some great you know, regional retailers like heb Publix Meijer. So that's where you'll find a lot of our distribution is at grocery since we know they saw a lot of so.
Greg Voisen
So you're in grocery stores, some limited grocery stores, and if the listeners want to reach the retailer where they can get it. Do you list the wheat retailers at the website?
Isaac Shapiro
We have not done that yet. And That's actually a good point. So we haven't set that up as anything on our website. So most people have called in or called.
Greg Voisen
So they really have two choices. If they don't know, if they don't find it on a shelf someplace, they literally can go to your website, which is clean logic.com. Or they can go to Amazon and buy various products, which are listed on Amazon. But that would be the two best ways to go about it.
Isaac Shapiro
Yes. Okay. Thank you for mentioning my website as well. Oh,
Greg Voisen
no, not a problem. Of course, we would do that. Now. Look, you we talked about the Braille, we talked about the fact that your mom is blind, that you are going to be building a plant that's going to hire and inclusion and it's a really important point. You know, I used to raise funds for a school that had a 12 group homes and a 650 autistic kids. And the reality is, they wanted to put those kids to work at what we call kind of regional centers, right? A lot of them could work on assembly lines, they couldn't function. And in your case, you're we're revisiting this. But I think this is really important, because diversity inclusion, and ensures the value is reflected in kind of your hiring practices to put these individuals to work and to give them a living wage. Currently, right now, what's the makeup? You said? Most of its in China? When do you foresee maybe having something here? And doing more of that? Are you on track to hit something pretty soon? Oh, yeah. So
Isaac Shapiro
we've actually been testing this concept for a little bit over a year and a half. It started during the time when, you know, the supply chain challenges increase in ocean freight. And my business partner and I have always had an idea to do some type of manufacturing in the US. But we got personal is my business partner daughter is no diverse, if physically disabled in one of the things that he's always thought about is creating a place where he could create a workforce where he can send his daughter to work and does not have to worry about it and live in independent life. And so this is what gave, you know, the idea to creating something sustainable, because we knew prices would have come back down. And so this was a great way to finally move forward. And so we are actually going live in September with Walmart stores in doing an assembled USA program, where it's going to be test piloting for all in all their stores, one of our sensitive stretch cloth items. So today, we have 28 employees. And during this journey in about a year and a half, our whole mission around inspiration was around vision loss. But this movement in terms of understanding what we had to do and working with the Department of Labor and other federal and state and nonprofit agencies, we knew we couldn't do this with just a blind or visually impaired workforce. So even though 70% are unemployed, we know some of the challenges are not everybody because of discrimination within the disabled community is so high that Social Security keeps a lot of people from seeking employment. And even some of the challenges we're seeing today is that because Social Security is such a part of the subconscious of people disabilities, that even getting them to work full time. And so it's been a journey, and we're there, we're being able to go live with this project and starting to go September. And then the way we will differentiate packaging between made in China and us as we look to onshore, our program to the US, that's where we'll be differentiating are assembled in USA, and then finally are made in USA facility.
Greg Voisen
Yeah, and I know Isaac, there's a lot of guidelines you have to follow to actually be able to say the product. One was manufactured here, because a certain amount of it needs to be assembled and put together here. All of those requirements. And then if there were any governance, government subsidy programs associated with it, to put these people to work, and I think it's a good thing that you're doing and there needs to be more of it. You guys now employ 27 Did you say people that are 2028 people that are doing this work? Do is the future for clean logic kind of expanding? Do you see other beauty and or household items that you're going to potentially grow into the future? Are you going to kind of keep it as beauty products and beauty Klein? Because right now the skews you've got a lot of skews as it is right now. Um, but have you have you seen a demand for what you're making and other places that you might be using it?
Isaac Shapiro
Yeah, we've seen a lot. And it's been, you know, just a little bit more background on clean logic. About three years ago, we did a rebrand. And it's a special rebrand since the agency we use is one that my wife works with. And she's been in branding for her whole career. And so she's the one that really changed the look and feel giving us the mission, you know, that was clear to the consumer, and what we really did throughout these last 15 years and putting it into this new look. And so what we feel is, we still have a way to continue to go deeper and get more people to use our products. So that's what we're really excited around this April launch around this new packaging and our ribbon cutting where we're going to bring in our Governor and you know, hoping to bring some other attendees that we've been talking to, but where are we see is where can we take our fabric deeper. So we know, babies an area that we could look at, you know, we do have a home kitchen sponge line that we're going to probably convert and over to clean logic, you know, using our technology. So, but right now, we are really focused on being the number one bath and skincare tool brand in the world, because there's never been a brand in this category in the world. It's been a private label, or some importer. So we're also trying to stay focused on, you know, really the body, Caroline and driving it deep. And where else can we sell? So it's that fine balance of, hey, new is great, and you need to be new. But as we've been bringing in more professionals and executive professionals that help us grow the brand, it's about how deep we can go with our customer base before we really try to start looking at what other categories. So that's how we've been viewing it in a in a balancing act of keeping new important, but still knowing we have a lot a lot more to grow with our current business.
Greg Voisen
Well, you do and just for my listeners, so they do know the mission. Clean logics I'm going to read it are committed to offering the highest quality Bath and Body accessories. That's why we act responsibly and sustainably. That's why we treat our customers with respect and care, we believe there is a power in being nice and clean. Because when you put it nice and clean together, you have the foundation of a better body a better world and a better future. So I love it. In 2018, they launched the sustainable line of certified organic cotton exfoliants. So for those listeners who want to know more, you're going to go to clean logic c-l-e-a-n-l-o-g-i-c.com. It's a great brand, it's a great product. And it's something that, you know, when you think about it has more ability, you say nice and clean to keep you clean, right? And that's so important in, in everywhere around the world. I was speaking with the people at clean the world, you probably know that one. So they take all the old soaps out of hotels, they grind them up, they put new perfumes in them or whatever it is exactly they do. And then they distribute them to places in the world where disease is rampant, right, where like people are actually dying because they're not staying clean. And those soaps have made a huge difference. Because they've given them away in certain areas, and they're doing it with the homeless, as well in in all these major cities. I would do you have anything on the horizon? That would take some of these clean logic products, and maybe provide them to communities like that, that are in need of, you know, doing? You obviously are working with people that are visually impaired? There seems to be a need in that area. Is that something you've been thinking about?
Isaac Shapiro
We've actually done some partnerships with nonprime nonprofit, especially in Los Angeles, where they actually provide showers. People homeless, and it's actually been great because, excuse me, we the feedback we received was, most of the time they receive like a bar or so or something and it's nothing that they can really take. But the tool is almost something that they have as like ownership and they can take with them because they're not going to reuse it. So we have, you know, done, done some partnerships, you know, and trying to figure out how to make it sustainable. But that's where we have taken it so far, but really been focusing on our, you know, disabilities mission.
Greg Voisen
Well, you've got a lot of opportunity here, Isaac, and it's a very obvious you've got a great website where people can go to buy these pre bundled solutions, or individual products as well. And again, I want to encourage my listeners, if you're looking for a way to exfoliate your skin, and do it with this ecofriendly, sustainable product sourced, and help the people that are visually impaired in the in the process, clean logic is the company that you want to go to. And that would be my commercial, go to clean logic.com. To do that, and you will and your first order, get 20% off, or just go to Amazon, and go shopping Amazon for clean logic products. Isaac, is there anything that you'd like to leave the listeners with today? Kind of about your company the direction? The reason that they may want to use your product? Or have you basically told him everything? Through all the questions I've asked?
Isaac Shapiro
No, I think I think the one thing that close it and bring the mission to feel really good about supporting clean logic, you know, our whole goal is to inspire all to be independent and successful. And, you know, when you think about that, especially in the community, with individuals with disabilities, you know, really, we're trying to inspire more companies to bring the products back into the US to manufacture. And also to think about, even if you're not in the manufacturing field, because we're looking at places in accounting and marketing. So it's not just in our manufacturing facility, you know, that we're looking, you know, to bring people into work. But I think, what we're really trying to do and what our Why is through the foundation, and through our journey of building this factory, because we're employing people with autism, we have someone with hearing impairment, we're now doing all disabilities. And so what's important for the listeners is to understand is that with every purchase that they're creating job opportunities, and with our inspiring story, we're looking to bring our industry together, where we can increase employment by 10% by 2035. And so this is where our mission is really trying to make a bigger impact outside of just the products we make, we want other companies to be thinking about the same, especially by creating an inclusive workforce, with people with disabilities, since many of these di, you know, statements that you see up there, which are amazing, because it's paving the way for accessibility, and bringing people in with disabilities. But it's really trying to make sure that you really are thinking about people disabilities, since many of them are unemployed.
Greg Voisen
Well, if any of my listeners want to reach out to you about what you're doing, are you open to do that they can reach you through the website, and basically send an email to you, Isaac, if they've got a company, and they're interested in learning more about what clean logic is doing.
Isaac Shapiro
Yes, of course, I'm always I've always remember when I first started my business that you know, you have people that help you along the way. So I still have a, you know, a heart for making sure that we continue in this great country to create more entrepreneurs.
Greg Voisen
Well, thank you so much. Namaste to you, my friend, thanks for being on inside personal growth, spending some time with our listeners. Again, we've been on with Isaac Shapiro from New York. And his company is called Cleanlogic. He and I met at the natural products West Expo a couple of months ago. And it's really wonderful to profile your company, the good that you're doing for the visually impaired and others that are working in the factories, making these goods and putting them out into the world. And also thank you for making something that's ecologically sustainable, and ecologically sourced. So we appreciate all that you're doing. Thanks so much, Isaac, and best of luck to you as clean logic moves forward, and distribution gets bigger.
Isaac Shapiro
And great. Thank you, Greg, for the opportunity to tell our story. And keep up your great work and continue in the future. Companies like ourselves.
Greg Voisen
Appreciate that.
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Inside Personal Growth with Greg Voisen · Podcast 1018: All Across America with Marc LiottiFrom one podcaster to another, joining me today is the host of All Across America, Marc Liotti.
Marc became an FCC licensed radio engineer at the age of 18 and has hosted shows on WHRW – Binghamton, New York; Subcity Radio – Glasgow, Scotland; and made guest appearances at clubs and radio stations such as WKCR – New York, New York. Presently, Marc is also a Senior Managing Director in Planned Giving at Save the Children US.
Marc is a total adventurer. He has hiked all 2,190 miles of the Appalachian Trail and if he could literally go across the United States, he will definitely do it which is probably one of the inspirations of his podcast show. All Across America features different stories from different people. Anything under the sun that has human interest stories and American culture.
If you want to know more about Marc or want to listen to his episodes, you may click here to visit their website.
I hope you enjoy my engaging interview with Marc Liotti. Happy listening!
You may also refer to the transcripts below for the full transciption (not edited) of the interview.
Interview Transcipt -Not EditedEmailDownloadNew TabGreg Voisen
Welcome back to Inside Personal Growth. I think I'm here with two people Marc Liotti and Marc Vigliotti and he's joining us from Connecticut. Marc is a friend of a friend of mine here in Del Mar California, Michael McCafferty. And that's how we came across one another. And I wanted to give a shout out to Mr. McCafferty, because he's the one that said, hey, Greg, you need to meet Marc Liotti, Marc Vigliotti. Good morning to you. Good day to you. I know here it's early in San Diego, but for you, not. So how are things going today?
Marc Liotti
All right, it's a beautiful day here in Ridgefield, Connecticut, about a mile from the New York State Line. And I can't quite call myself a Connecticut Yankee. Still maintaining that New York presence. So, but happy to be here. And thanks for having me.
Greg Voisen
Well, we're, it's a pleasure to have you Marc. And I think the important part for our listeners is that you are an adventurer, he does a podcast show called All Across America. And I'm going to tell the listeners a little bit about you is pretty fascinating guy. And I told him before we came on here, if our if our listeners learn about his show, but at the same time, learn about what it's like to kind of be a little bit more curious in life. I think that's an important element of personal growth. It's probably one of the first because curiosity then leads to a passion, which then leads to a purpose, which then leads to goals, which then leads to something happening positively. And I think focus is always a challenge for people that are curious, because we like to do a lot of different things, right? So, so the focus part is the key and the curiosity is to find something you're really passionate about. And I think Marc is very passionate. He's a fundraiser over the last 15 years, visited one on one with philanthropists across the country with regular visits to California, Florida, New York, Texas. He's met with everyone from Academy Award winners to cat ladies. He calls it all wonderful people, the cat ladies are more generous, he said he was the face of Rutgers University on the West Coast and held similar roles with the National Environmental and humanitarian groups. We'll get into that Marc as a West Point drop out. That's good. He's proud of actually, and a state and a State School grad. He's hiked the 20 190 miles the Appalachian Trail and restored the house that he's living in right now. 1750s homestead where he lives with his family. He's lived in the deep south Appalachian Pacific Northwest New York and New England. So you can see he's gotten around during his short lifespan so far.
Marc Liotti
Right, right. I'll make one interjection Greg, for my folks that are listening, your listeners in Appalachia, it is properly pronounced Appalachia. Okay, great. That's always a great debate. But
Greg Voisen
for our green next here in California, we'd probably say Appalachia, and we probably miss Vinny rounds it but I'm glad that you corrected me. He constantly seeks opportunities to learn from people with expertise, backgrounds, opinions from difference, different from his own, which is across America show does that he works as a fundraiser with his radio DJ background in a conversational flow from forgotten and family corners of the country. Well, he is a very, very interesting man to say the least. And, you know, Marc, tell us, I think, you know, when you do a Charles curl kind of show, which is I'm just going to use his name. I think if you had a motor home, and you can literally go across the United States, or an old pickup truck, you'd probably do that. That's what was the inspiration behind All Across America. And how'd you get started with this podcast show?
Marc Liotti
Okay. Well, you mentioned my career as a fundraiser and I've worked as a you know, what's called a front line or a face to face fundraiser for almost 20 years. And it's a wonderful, wonderful occupation that I'm glad not too many people know about. Because there'd be people clamoring to do the work that I do. In a lot of people think of fundraising as I don't know what bake sale or an auction or events or I don't know, getting a teleMarceting phone Call from your college. But you know, the work that I do is meeting, as you mentioned, Greg, one on one with folks all across the country. And I've literally met with donors from San Diego to Miami, from Boston to San Francisco and had a chance to sit down with people and really hear about their lives. And you know, these are wonderful folks who are charitable, who support causes that are dear to them, whether that's scholarships for first generation college students or giving to support the environment or, you know, humanitarian causes across the world. And the pandemic hit, and I didn't get a chance to do that as much. And I've always enjoyed just meeting people and having that sense of curiosity, and I don't quite know where it comes from. But I missed that. And it also brings me to something called I don't know, if you're familiar with the centenarian clusters, which are folks who have lived over 100 years and there's a few of them one closer to you in Loma Linda, California, 70 adventus group, Okinawa, Japan and then Sardinia, Italy. I spent a lot of time in Sardinia, Italy, it's the second largest island in the Mediterranean outside of Sicily.
Greg Voisen
Funny you say that, because Dan Buettner was just on here, the guy that writes zones he was on a few months ago. And you know that lady in Redlands? Well, actually, it's where the Seventh Day Adventists are, think she's 108. Now? Wow.
Marc Liotti
Okay. All right. And yes, Dan Buettner, you know, that's, that's his research, and it's, you know, longitudinal research over decades. And, you know, there have been empirical studies and mixed messages, let's say around wine consumption, and years ago said, oh, a couple glasses of wine a day is good for you. And, you know, recently some of that studies have shown that it doesn't have any effect. But in looking at the centenarian clusters, it's almost reverse engineering, what a healthy what somebody should do to live long. And one of the things that the centenarian clusters have is a sense of community. So they're close to their family, and they're close to their friends. And on Okinawa, there's a concept called the moralities, which is having a group of five friends who commit to each other for life. And, you know, maintaining those friendships, and those family ties are just so important to me. And quite frankly, it's a lot more fun than eating lots of beans and leafy greens. So that was kind of the impetus behind the show was just that.
Greg Voisen
You're saying your fundraising, because of the pandemic, you weren't able to meet with these people in person. So you started doing the podcast show. I think that's a wonderful impetus to actually start something like this, to be honest with you. And you know, I've done a lot of fundraising myself, I've worked for many different charities over the years as, and they always put me in the fundraising role, oh, we're doing this campaign, we got to raise $2 million to build this building. And I was the guy that always seemed to be in charge of that. And you do meet a lot of interesting people. And you have a lot of interesting discussions. Your Podcast covers a wide range of topics, you know, and related to American culture and history and unusual people. You just made a comment about a guy in Dollywood that has been performing what twice a night or something for
Marc Liotti
six nights a week? Yeah, and Dollywood in Pigeon Forge, Tennessee. So
Greg Voisen
yeah. So how do you decide on what topics to explore? And share with the audience is it is it really just, you know, you get a hunch, and you guys start something and down and you find somebody and you put them on the show?
Marc Liotti
Pretty much. You know, I mean, all of the things that all of the folks that I've had on the show, I have some interests, whether it's you know, Director 10, gently, you know, I when I was 13 years old, I learned how to juggle and you know, I happen to cross Nils and Neil's drinker who is, as I mentioned, a time Guinness World Record Juggler and had him on the show and prior to that, I had a luxury matchmaker in Minneapolis. And prior to that, I had a bison rancher outside of Bozeman, Montana, that as a herd of 170 Bison, and that happened to be a personal friend of mine that I had worked with and previous job, but yeah, he's got a great story. And it's, it's
Greg Voisen
I think the interesting thing is though, Marc, everybody has a story, right? We all do it. And we've all got a history. And are doing or did or are doing are going to do. What is it that, that intrigues you as an individual to profile these different stories in America? It's all across America. Right? You didn't say all across the Europe, you didn't go? You didn't go anywhere else. You pretty much stayed right here. Yes. And I think that, you know, when you, when you look at what you're doing, I mentioned Charles grant. I mean, that's kind of what he used to do for CBS. Right was, oh, yeah, across the country, and at a motor home and find unusual stories, right.
Marc Liotti
Are that runs on the corn cobs, the canoe maker, you know, the Kentucky,
Greg Voisen
they're all human interest stories, and I think that's the most important thing, and it's about this American culture, it's it the deep root underneath, there's this underlying culture that every one of these kinds of communities has where you find somebody like that, where, you know, it's, it's happened? What is it the unique aspects of the culture that you wanted to make the world aware of by interviewing these kinds of people? Yeah,
Marc Liotti
you know, it's, it's such a huge country in terms of population 330 million, and the fourth largest country in the world by size, but also it's the geography and, you know, in traveling throughout Europe, people would, you know, make fun of Americans that only, you know, a small percentage of us had passports. And I would say to folks, you're right, but people need to understand the vastness of the United States, you know, even the vastness of New York State, and people think New York State is only New York City, whereas it's a, it's a huge state that can take eight hours to go from one side of the other. And with that vast country in that hundreds of years of history and millions, hundreds of millions of people, there are so many different subcultures, and there's just so much to learn and to know about. And, you know, it's that soft power that that, you know, it's spoken of in diplomatic terms that we have the United States, whether that's basketball, whether that's, you know, music, popular culture, and there's just so much to explore. It's endless, its boundless.
Greg Voisen
Well, out of the podcast, you've done Marc, which is the one that you would find most intriguing, interesting, and was a compelling story.
Marc Liotti
Um, you know, that's a tough,
Greg Voisen
I hate to make you choose one. But I think we probably don't have time for a bunch of them. But I think it gives our listeners a little idea of the in depth and a thorough nature in which you go when you do the podcast. But was there anybody that stood out to you that was like, wow, this was really cool.
Marc Liotti
I think Suzy Allport was my, I think the third person I interviewed and Susie Alport, wrote sermons in stone, the stone walls of New York, in New England. And, you know, I live in an old Farmstead, and there are a lot of stone walls, and I spent a lot of the pandemic, doing a 3D puzzle, which is putting together a rock walls. So, you know, I met with her and she was the first person that I did in person. So I have, you know, a whole interview kit and sat down and recorded it live at her kitchen table. But not only was she an expert in still given talks to this day on stone walls, but she's also written about omega threes in the health benefits of Omega threes, and they're completely divergent subject.
Greg Voisen
That's absurd. And
Marc Liotti
she said to her, at the start of the interview, I said, you know, it sounds like you write about what interests you. And, and that was exactly it. And for me, it's, you know, we had half of a conversation on stone walls, and the other half of our conversation was on omega threes. And that's,
Greg Voisen
That is pretty interesting. And that's actually quite cool. Because I think that just shows the nature at which you don't know how people actually get where they are until you ask them the question about that. And then they tell you this story about how she got involved with studying omega threes and the interest in omega threes and what it did for you and so on. And I think that's again, around curiosity, when you look at all these people are highly curious about a lot of different things. And with so many different perspective and experiences shared on your podcast, because it really is a rancher that you were just stuff that you were just talking about. And you don't do them all in person. You don't have the opportunity to do that. You've got to probably do most of them via recording. Have you noticed in Common themes or connections between them. So what would you say might be a common theme that runs amongst these people that you've interviewed? Now? I know I've done 1100, almost 1100 interviews now pretty close. That's a lot of interviews, right?
Marc Liotti
That's the Pioneer.
Greg Voisen
And but the, but the point is, is if somebody asked me that question, I would probably say, and I don't want to, I don't want to sway your answer. But when you after you answer, I'm gonna answer.
Marc Liotti
Okay. All right, I thought you'd go first. I went, you know, it's about the passion that people have. And, you know, for me, I was a radio DJ. And that brought that background in the melding of you know, the relationships and being a radio DJ and meeting with donors one on one. But it's about just understanding and so for me, you know, if you're a carpenter, you have to be interested in what you know, if you're, if you're a car mechanic, hopefully you like cars, and it's just great hearing these folks in their passion for what they do. And you know, the sometimes single minded focus, Neil's Dunker performed six nights a week and Dollywood onstage, wrote a book about a juggler, and is now attempting a Guinness Book of World Records. 14 Raise. And when you have to throw these things so high in the air, I learned that there are very few indoor buildings that can accommodate, you know, world record. So, I mean, I was so excited to hear about how, how enthralled he was about the subject of juggling, and it wasn't just a job.
Greg Voisen
Well, so you. So you answered the question. And I'll answer the question after all of these interviews that I've done it this show started with people who had a passion for a topic enough that they would write a book, right, yeah. 98 99% of the people that come on are authors, right. And I have branched out a little bit lately with that kind of theme that I've got. And I also narrowed it down when you talk about focus on spirituality, personal growth, business, and wellness. And people would say, Wow, that's kind of weird genres that you've kind of blended in. Here's what I found out. If you looked at every one of those genres, and that was all by accident Marc. In each one of those, like the lady with the with the Omega threes. That was a thing around her wellness. You talked about that five minutes ago when you talked about the 108 year old woman with the Seventh Day Adventists up in, I call it Redlands area, but it's close. That's a wellness thing. We talked about Dan Buettner that's a wellness thing. Exactly. Other people had the passion around business, but then as you know, as a professional run fundraiser, I'm getting to the answer here, those people were beyond the business to do something good for the world. So those kinds of people, and almost, I'm gonna say 60 to 70% of the people that I interview, they want to take the money they've earned and do good with it. They want to put it out and we're like me, I have a nonprofit, you work for a nonprofit. I'm trying to help the homeless as much as I can. And do Ukrainian refugees from everybody that makes a donation. But the point is, is it's like, Okay, what else is there? What's the bigger purpose here? So what I found out about people that write a book, is that they've got a passion for one or two or three different things. They want the world to know about it. So the writing the book, yeah, the book, as most books are their door openers for people. I mean, there's only a small percentage of books that ever hit the top selling books, right? Yes. So when you write a book, you have to say, well, what are my odds of, you know, being Harry Potter, you know, pretty kind of slimmed in ill. But on the other hand, it's a great way to hand it to somebody as kind of a calling card and say, you know, here, here's how I get I we can talk about the things that I'm passionate about. So the answer to the question is, I found that everybody that in those genres, spirituality in particular, they really had this unique interest in wanting to tell the world like this one, this is a I just bought, I don't have to buy very many of them. But this is Larry Dossey. One Mind, right. And this is an old book. But it's how our individual mind is part of a greater consciousness and why it matters. And this is an MD, writing. And these are the kinds of people that I'm really enthralled with, because these people have gone through medical school. And now they've gone beyond science. Right? They're looking to spirituality, right? So there's so many of them now they're, they're like crawling out of the woodworks wanting to be on the show. Right. So it's very cool. I love it. So my Hopefully I answered the question for you. And for the listeners, I'm intrigued by people who have a focus who want to get their message out and are very passionate about it. And that's how they get on the podcast. Now, how much have you traveled to actually get to some of these guests? And I know, you said you took your kit and went out and met with this lady in her kitchen and did the podcast? Do you do much of that? Or is this really mostly? And if you do, what makes it different for you to actually sit face to face? versus me, which is, I gotta admit, 90% of the people that are on the show. I never meet them face to face first. Yeah, I don't have that opportunity.
Marc Liotti
You know, it's been mostly in the New York, New Jersey, Connecticut area I've met with folks face to face just because it's easier to travel. And, yeah, ideally, one day when I retire, I'll you know, get that RV and you know, travel to the Forgotten corners of the country. But you know, until that I kind of keep it local and, but it's kind of cool to show up to somebody's doorstep. And you know, you've got everything you need and a little backpack and you set it up. And I think folks
Greg Voisen
that are you doing those just audio?
Marc Liotti
Yes. Usually those I do audio I do video with, you know, setting up an iPhone. Certainly done
Greg Voisen
with audio? Well, you know, for people out there that want to start a podcast show. I know you're just now starting your journey, I'd say starting it in the sense that, you know, if I look at the numbers of podcasts is not always quality. But I say people really think that the quality of inside personal growth is there. So I keep doing it. Um, what is it about you this podcasting, in your estimation, that you would tell other people that are maybe on the cusp of wanting to do podcasts? Because it? It isn't? You know, nobody's asked me this question. But the point is, I'm getting it from somebody who's relatively new at it, right, and understands that it isn't as easy as it looks.
Marc Liotti
No. I would say you know, with any with any hobby or pursuit, don't let perfect be the enemy of the good. And you've just got to if it's something that you want to do get it started, get into it, and don't spend too much money at first. And I think a lot of people get into, you know, they pursue something in some sort of passion, they buy all the fancy equipment, and they spend all their time researching and buying equipment, and it may fizzle out or they may decide that it's not, that's not the direction that they were going to take it and they go in in a slightly different direction and need, you know, a different set of equipment. For me, I did everything myself, I designed the website, I played the theme music on slide guitar and recorded it, you know, the logo I created myself and so if you can get some outside help, you know, do that. But if it's something and you've got a topic that you feel that people would be interested in hearing about, pursue it. But it's not as you know, in terms of, you know, conversational approach and meeting with people. I think that's one of the harder parts and you know, there are a lot of different styles of podcasts some are just you know, two people you know, talking to each other making jokes others are more like yours, which is and mine which are more interview and conversational approaches to folks we find of interest but get a better estimation of who you are as a person and do you have that quality of bringing out you know, folks to speak from the heart and well you've got
Greg Voisen
this analysis it and i e l s d u i n k er, pitching for newness. See? That's the world record holder for doing all the juggling, right? Yes, yeah. I encourage people to take a look at that one. He's very young guy. You can see. And you know, you say as your tagline podcasting from Portland, East Portland west from Big Pine Key to Pacific Beach from San Juan to Guam. It is all across America. But you know, as soon as you put this out here, that you have an international Marcet because all they have to do is go across america.net. And that is the that is the site people. It's allacrossamerica.net I'd welcome you to go there. Can see the podcast, you obviously can get it on Spotify and Apple podcasts and Google podcasts and YouTube. But that is his website that you want to go to, to do that. And what are some upcoming podcasts that you have scheduled that our listeners might want to know about with relation to maybe something really unique that you've got scheduled that's on the drawing board?
Marc Liotti
You know, I mentioned the last three that I had, which was the bison rancher matchmaker, the juggler looking to have a mentalist on. So we'll see if that works. And that is the mental magic. Then I also have somebody a little bit closer to home. You know, I did Greg Pittman, who is Mr. Florida has written half a dozen books on the state of Florida. So I said, you know, I should have somebody closer to home. So I've got somebody in a similar vein for the state of Connecticut, my home state, who does pop culture, would love to have the Texas on who writes a monthly column in Texas Monthly, who would be Craig Pitman's. And Mike Allen, who was the Connecticut pop culture person, that would be their counterpart. So those are a few things coming up. But if anybody has suggestions, please, please let
Greg Voisen
me know. Yeah, right. Right, Marc, you can reach out to him through the website. And give him your suggestions. Just it's, it's the contact, you can have the about and the support us. And obviously, he's doing this all on his own nickel. So he could you could use the support to keep it going. The other thing is, is that, you know, much of your time is focused on fund raising. Yeah, speak with our listening audience about who you're working with right now and associated with and the fundraising that you're doing and the cause that you're working for.
Marc Liotti
Okay. Yeah, as I mentioned, I've worked for a couple of universities. NRDC, Natural Resources Defense Council, which is an environmental group based in New York City, which works on policy and advocacy. And I've been in the humanitarian sector for the last few years, and then work specifically with legacy giving. And those are folks that are interested in leaving a cause in their will. So you know, there are a lot of high your net worth people that are capable of making larger outright gifts today. But we talk about The Millionaire Next Door, who could be, you know, one of your listeners that, you know, lives in a home that is really accrued in value over the last couple of decades, you know, may not have children, and in making that ultimate gift, at their end of their life, could be a very large and significant gift to organizations they support, whether that's their local library, or whether that's, you know, humanitarian causes. And so, you know, I've had the pleasure of just meeting with folks who are really The Millionaire Next Door, who are just regular folks like you and I, who, you know, are thrifty and have been careful in how they've spent their money and are charitable and are really considering leaving something to a cause that is dear to them. And
Greg Voisen
If somebody's interested, Marc, and oh, here, and I've done a lot of the same work you're doing, but sometimes people don't know. So obviously, most communities have, we have one called the San Diego Foundation. And so it's this aggregate that basically says we divide the money up, we'll give some to the Red Cross, we'll give somebody will give some money over here. We'll give some money there and there. What is your what is your take on that? Because I think a lot of times, they don't maybe have one particular passion. But if they went to a foundation like that, they could literally talk with somebody and get an insight as to what percentages would go where and where it might go and so on. Are you favorable of that kind of approach? Of course.
Marc Liotti
Of course. Yeah. I'm less familiar with the Community Foundation. shins, but there are, you know, across the country are foundations from, you know, the Coastal Carolina foundation in Charleston, you know, to foundations in the San Diego area to, you know, here in Fairfield County, Connecticut, my recommendation in terms of giving for folks that are charitable is to give locally and to give nationally or internationally. So whether that is to, you know, a local, you know, religious institution or a library or local food pantry, but then also to think more globally and to consider giving to, you know, a global or national humanitarian group or environmental group or wherever your passion lies. And if you're having difficulty, you know, there is that community foundation route, which you had mentioned as well. Yeah, I think
Greg Voisen
Sometimes it sparks in people some interest to try and figure out what to do. Right. And, and they learn from Community Foundation's, what is actually available to them, right, it gives them an education to go and meet with somebody. Well, as far as the podcast is concerned, it sounds like you've got the growth, it's on the run. You've got a lot of different people, you're going to interview this, this gentleman from Florida, and maybe the guy from Texas, you're now trying to secure, but Marc is saying, hey, look, if you have somebody if you're listening to my podcast today, and you have somebody who has a unique interest or profile, please send Marc an email, and let him know about that. Also, for anyone who's listening to this, maybe you yourself have that unique story. And you'd like to reach out to Marc to be on his podcast all across America. Marc, it's been a pleasure having you on the show, spending some time with me to just let the world know about all across America about you as a person, the things that you're doing your unique interests. I really appreciate you taking the time and the interest to do this. And I want to thank our good friend, Mike McCafferty, who always I always look to the connectors because I am one of those people that puts over the years, probably 1000s of people together to do things and you never know what happens. Right? And that is a bit of a unique talent, you know, when you when you use your intuition to think okay, this guy to talk to this guy. And let's see what happens. Right. So an offline here I have a referral for you that I'm going to give you to a guy in upstate New York. All right, well, Blessings to you. Thank you very much. Namaste. Thanks for being on inside personal growth for everybody. Marc, tell me your other last name again. So I don't use the real last name.
Marc Liotti
Yachty Marcley Adi Marcley Yachty well, you're
Greg Voisen
gonna see when you go to his podcast, it's gonna say Marc Vigliotti. But the reality is, it's Marc Lyon. It is what he goes by all across America, it's www all across america.net, all across America, not debt, we'll put the entry in for that, or in other words, into our blog. And so all of you can reach him. Marc, thanks for taking the time today.
Marc Liotti
Thank you, Greg. And if I could leave you all with one thing is that, you know, thank you for making all those connections, Greg, and bringing everybody on board. And you know, for me, just those personal connections in those relationships are so important. And I you know, I hope you reach out to friends and family members that you haven't talked to in a while, and just to check in and just to say, hello, and, you know, we always talk about how difficult it is to make friends. And you know, the easiest friends to make are the ones that you already have. So, I'm sure there's somebody in your life, you know, again, whether it's a brother or sister or cousin or, you know, a friend from college, reach out and make that connection. And, you know, it's, it's, it's so important that we have each other.
Greg Voisen
Thank you, Marc, thanks for saying that, actually. Because it is important during times of pandemic or not, that we keep those relationships fresh and current. And I think over the years, depending on what it is you do for a living, most of us come in contact with a lot of people, a lot of people and we don't really realize it until we put our hat on and start thinking about who we've actually spoken with or had an influence on or whatever. And the other thing is and remember this from my listeners, that the people that show up to your memorial when you pass they've done this a study of this and I don't know where it is exactly, but it's pretty much predicated on the Weather. So if it's a bad weather day, not as many people
Marc Liotti
I know you're gonna have some great insight there.
Greg Voisen
So, the reality is you might want to consider making those friends whether they show up to your memorial or not. Right, right, right. fairweather friend does that. I think it might, I think it might. But if it's real stormy outside and you're having a, they're having your memorial service on a snow day, you may not have as many people
Marc Liotti
all the more reason to show up while we're living so Exactly.
Greg Voisen
That was my point. That's my point show up while you can. So thanks, Marc.
Marc Liotti
Appreciate it, Greg.
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Inside Personal Growth with Greg Voisen · Podcast 1017: The First 100 Miles with Ron Story JrJoining me this episode is the author of The First 100 Miles, Ron Story Jr.
From a struggling insurance salesman, Ron has become a self-made entrepreneur. He has been a full time entrepreneur for over 20
years now and has been instrumental in the creation, development
and leadership of over 30 companies. Ron is also the founder of software company, PitchDB, the world’s largest podcast search engine with nearly 3 million hosts.
Ron’s book The First 100 Miles challenges business owners to recognize the opportunities in front of them and offers practical ways to grow faster. The book is intended for those who have a desire to grow their businesses with an unfair advantage and dominate their market place.
If you’re interested and want to know more about Ron, please click here to visit his website. You may also click this link to download Ron’s book for free.
I hope you enjoy my engaging interview with Ron Story Jr. Happy listening!
You may also refer to the transcripts below for the full transciption (not edited) of the interview.
Interview Transcipt -Not EditedEmailDownloadNew TabGreg Voisen
Hey, welcome back to Inside Personal Growth. This is Greg Voisen, the host of Inside Personal Growth. And Ron Story Jr. is on with us and I look to my listeners, I'm no mystery, but you kind of are. So we're gonna tell our listeners a little bit about Ron. He's joining us from St. Louis, Missouri. My old stomping grounds. I lived there until I was seven years old. Then I moved to Southern California. But I always enjoyed St. Louis in the arches and playing in the snow and all the cool stuff. So Ron, how're you doing today?
Ron Story Jr
I'm doing well. I'm doing well.
Greg Voisen
Good. At least, it's not snowing today.
Ron Story Jr
No, it's not snowing. Actually. I'm originally from St. Louis, but I'm currently in Medellin, Colombia.
Greg Voisen
Oh, okay. So yeah, I think you told me that we did the pre interview. But he is originally from, from St. Louis. But he's in methane. Well, I'm going to let them know that your location is in methane today. And Ron's been a full time entrepreneur for 20 years. And he's been instrumental in the creation development, leadership of over 30 companies, he went from a struggling insurance salesman to became a self-made entrepreneur and now living as he said many in Colombia. He's the founder of software company called Pitch dB, which we're going to talk about on the show, the world's largest podcast search engine with nearly 3 million hosts. He saves hours of digging for podcasts and contact details in just a few clicks if you actually subscribe to this. And obviously, for my listeners out there, broaden their reach. This is a perfectly great podcast for you to listen to, to actually learn how to do that with his software. He's also the author of a book titled The First 100 Miles, which when you go to his website, unique little approach, you'll get it for free. You don't have to go to Amazon to pick it up. Ron will give it to you for free. And it's basically, you'll just go to the website, and then the backslash will be book. And we'll put that in our blog, in which he challenges business owners to recognize the opportunities in front of them, and offers practical ways to grow faster, is a starter and a fixer at heart who's learned many valuable lessons as an entrepreneur over the past few decades. As he said he was born in East St. Louis. He first started his business as a kid collecting recycled aluminum cans, I did that myself. And then he could buy toys that he wanted. He that drive to solve problem continues today, just on a larger scale is defied the odds and created a life that could only dream about as a kid. Well, Ron, thanks for being on the show. Thanks for taking a few minutes to speak to the listeners of inside personal growth, about this crazy spirit that you've got as an entrepreneur. And as somebody who has been out there for years. And in your book. You know, you talk about the first 100 miles. And you say in the subtitle circled in red, how to close more sales by becoming locally famous. And then you tell some stories in the book that I think are really cool. And I think what's important is that people understand this 100 mile concept. So why did you write the book? What do you think people are going to get out of this book? And then we're going to go into the MythBusters.
Ron Story Jr
Okay, yeah, no, I think that's a good question. I think now with social media and everything we can reach out and be in contact with people all over the world, like I'm in Medellin right now. And we're several 1000s of miles away from each other. And we can still have a very intimate conversation. Sometimes we forget the people that we can reach and impact face to face, right in our own cities and in our own towns. So the first 100 Miles wasn't about being internationally famous being a little fish in a huge pond. But it was more about how do I become a big fish in a pond that I can really control and master that would respect me as the hometown guy who's really good at what he does. So instead of having to go to LA to find a guy to talk about this, you could just talk to me locally, I'm the master here in this domain. So that's what the 101st 100 Miles was about was reminding people that don't forget about your local audience that will respect you that you can press the flesh with, you can meet them actually for lunch, and have a great conversation with them and make a great,
Greg Voisen
great story in there about Tim Grover in a basketball coaching in you also talk about Michael Jordan and you talk about Chicago, if you would kind of tell that story, because that's the introduction to this book. And it also, you say that I believe that if you position yourself to be the go to authority to solve one particular problem in your marketplace within 100 mile radius or home, you can double your income within the next 12 months. So that's a pretty compelling statement. the go to guy.
Ron Story Jr
I'll explain to you, because now everybody wants to say that they know everything. But we know that that's not true chat GPT Google, they're smarter than us on everything. But they may not have all the intricate, nuanced details that we have on one thing, right. So there are a lot of people with podcasts, but there aren't a lot of people that have 3 million podcast. So because I have access to so many, my experience with podcasting is totally different than most people. So when we think of someone like Tim Grover, most people don't know who Tim Grover is, right now, if you played in the NBA, and you said the name Tim Grover, especially prior to five years ago, when he started writing books, only NBA players knew who didn't who Tim Grover was, and everybody loved him, because they could say I was coached by the guy who trained Michael Jordan. Right. So he didn't care about being famous to the world, as long as he was famous to Michael Jordan, Kobe Bryant, Dwayne Wade, and the top NBA champions, because that's what he had a he had a reputation for training them and getting shooting guards battle tested. Right. So if you were an NBA shooting guard, and you aspire to be Michael Jordan, you probably want it to grow. Who cares? If the rest of the world knew him the best in the world? At what he did, they knew that he was the best at what he did. So is there a space that you as an individual can occupy, I like to say most people look for a niche market instead of seeing themselves as the niche market? And my niche? Right? If I just focus on me, and what I like to do and share people what I'm learning, and how I do it, people will be attracted to me and my methods. Right? So that's what Tim Grover was doing. He wasn't the first person that was training basketball people.
Greg Voisen
Right? Right. Right, right.
Ron Story Jr
But he became known as the champion maker.
Greg Voisen
Well, that may be coming, that becoming known Ron is really kind of the issue. And that's what you're helping people do with the DB podcast is having them become more known. But let's, let's dig a little bit deeper into this, this book, because, you know, we all have these memes we run around with about ourselves, and we talk about ourselves, and that you were gonna call a miss in this case. And in this case, you talk about five different myths that we run about round. And I guarantee you that everybody out there, at some point, if they don't, right now, has had this mindset about themselves. And the Myth number one is to be an expert, you need to call yourself an expert. That's your Myth number one, write your Myth number two, that you talk about, is basically experts know everything about the topic, you're Myth number three is experts are the very best at what they do. And you cited Richard Simmons, and it takes years to build up credibility. And authority number four, which we know is not true. And then myth number five is I'm not ready to be seen as an authority. So in other words, these are all things that are in the subconscious that we're telling ourselves, which we know are not true about ourselves, yet at the same time, we believe them enough. And so we don't venture out and make a change. How are we going to make that change run?
Ron Story Jr
Well, so when I think about these myths, it's usually not that we don't know the myth is that we don't know the solution to that. That's correct. So a lot of times, we need someone needs to show us the other side of that coin. Right. So the first one, to be an expert, you need to call yourself an expert. It's actually the opposite. The minute you call yourself an expert, I don't trust you. Because I'm like, Dude, come on, man. Of course, you ever, it's in your best interest to call yourself the expert. So I don't even believe that, right? But if I just go out and do what I need to do, and I help my clients, and if I do it well enough, they'll call me the expert at it. Right? And one great example is my mom. My mom has an iPhone, right? She thinks that I am a tech genius, because I know how to use an iPhone. I'm just an expert to her because she's 75 Right? All right, but in reality, I'm not a tech expert at all right. But in her mind, because I was able to solve all of her iPhone problems, she calls me a tech wizard to her friends. So I get all the phone calls. Hey, can you help Deborah fix our iPhone? Hey, Betty had this question. She asked me, I told her, you can text you. iPhone expert. I just did. I just solved the problem. And now I'm the iPhone genius.
Greg Voisen
Yeah. Not the place you really want to be. But I do know, I do know that because people do the same thing with me. And I've worked around technology so long. So when a question pops up around whatever it might be, I don't ever call myself the expert about anything. What I do tell you is that I'm a problem solver. Just like you say, as soon as you become a good problem solver, you basically are good at what you do. And I can't tell you how many YouTube videos I've watched to learn how to solve various different problems. But all those guys up on YouTube, they are not calling themselves experts. They're giving away their information for free to people like me, so I can help other people. Right.
Ron Story Jr
Exactly. Yeah. And I think that takes us into Myth number two, which is experts know everything about their topics. No, no, we know a little we know a lot about a little bit of the topic. Right? So if you go on YouTube, you can type in podcasting or YouTube, you're gonna get 80 million videos, with 18 million different directions. You can go with podcasting, how to monetize all these different things. But the person who's usually talking is giving their personal experience with their method, right? So I'm not a master of everything. But I'm a master of mine. I'm a master of the way that I do things. So I don't try to give out theory, I just show people what I'm already doing and say, hey, I can help you just follow down the same track. Because I've mastered mine. I haven't mastered everything, but I've mastered my method. So you don't need to know everything, to be respected or trusted as a person that can deliver what you
Greg Voisen
promised. And I think it's important to say respected or trusted versus an expert. And like you said you'd veer away. If somebody told you were an expert. You're Myth number three, our experts are very best at what they do. And I would say that that is a myth. We're not the best, right? We've learned how to do something maybe one way or two different ways. We get it. But we don't claim to be the endless bottom of solution. Problem Solver guy, right? You know,
Ron Story Jr
exactly right. When I was a financial advisor, we used to always say, hey, look, your goal isn't to get 100% returns in the market. And to build a best portfolio. The goal is to take the worst thing that a client is doing and replace it with something better. And then you meet with them again in six months, and you take the worst thing that they're doing at that time, and you do something better. And over a 20 year period. You've built a successful client that's minimized their losses, and almost maximized their returns. Yeah, though, they'll never get a perfect portfolio. So you know, if we think of Richard Simmons, right. Richard Simmons is the best example of this. He didn't have owners watch neggers body. Right. But his audience didn't want to be on his watch. His audience was stay at home moms, they were at home into an afternoon that loved all the music and wanted to do the BOP and this naked nice, goofy dance. Yeah, and they didn't want to look at Jane Fonda because Jane Fonda was too perfectly manicured. Like, look, I'm a bit chubby Jane Fonda makes me feel insecure. Let me listen to this flamboyant guy who's out of shape also for man, and I can take instruction from him and be comfortable because he doesn't even have on the he has on a cut off shirt. And he's all he makes me feel good about myself. Yeah, that was his audience. Right. Right. So you know, is he the best overall as far as but not even close? is the best for his audience though he right best person to help your audience. So it's
Greg Voisen
but I think he knew who he was appealing to. And I think that's a big factor here is, you know, when I do pre interviews, I tell people may not be the right show for you. I want it to be a match that you're reaching the kind of people that you would like to reach know who the audience is no, who's right to say no to and who's right to say yes to, right. So don't come off like, hey, I can solve all your problems you go like when you're a financial planner, and somebody may be asked you about a will or a trust. You're not going to be the attorney If you're gonna say I know enough about it, but the reality is for you to get your trust done, you need to go see Joe down the street who's really good. That's what he does is estate tax planning, right? I think it's important to realize your limitations and what your specialty is. And then you say, myth number four is it takes years to build up credibility and authority. While that's a myth, because it doesn't take years to do that. I think people look to physicians to say, well, a physician spent, you know, four years and regular college, then another four years to get his degree. So he must know everything there is to know. And I know I'm finding that true about many physicians, they're advising you, Ill advising you about things, that when you look at the pool of physicians, you could go to talk about it, you're gonna get a different opinion from five different people about how to solve a health problem. Yeah,
Ron Story Jr
yeah. Well, let's look at let's use that as an example. Let's say that your doctor is 68 years old and went to medical school in the 70s. And he's about to retire. Right? And he does this continuing ads, but he, he's competing with the person who just graduated five years ago, and he's on the cutting edge of rejuvenation, like youthful rejuvenation. Who do you want to go talk to?
Greg Voisen
The younger guy?
Ron Story Jr
Yeah, he hasn't been doing it for long enough. He wasn't even born yet. When this guy graduated from medical school, but on this particular thing, he is cutting edge. I think I should go to him.
Greg Voisen
Right? It's a great example. What do you think? I mean, I know we talked about this a little bit before coming on the air. But you know, you did address AI a bit, you know, and we realize that AI is going to revolutionize what we think we know about what some computer is computing that could help us know more. So that same 68 year old physician, if he went into, you know, chat, CBT and type the question about an ailment or something, it's going to give him some response, right. And hopefully, it's giving him a response with this combination of data. Because if people really realize how it works, it's not going out and calming all the net. It's really actually kind of thinking on its own about what's in there. Right. Right. Yeah, that's great. So I mean, it could think about this, this could revolutionize the way in which people see experts. Yes.
Ron Story Jr
Yep. So here's the thing. Here's what I know, if we were to combine number three and number four, together, I would make this statement, you're probably going to be the most available and trusted expert that your audience has access to. That makes sense. So can I call the guy who Sam Altman who runs open AI? No. Right. But I can have access to people on YouTube who know enough about it. And I can be several steps away from him. I don't need to talk to the CEO, but those folks on YouTube or who's created a chat GPT course, they're the closest I'm gonna get to an expert. That's where we are. Right? We just need to be a resource that our audience trust me, we don't have to. And when we don't know somebody, just say, I don't know it. You want to build trust with somebody admit what you don't know.
Greg Voisen
Yeah. And I would say to you know, because the AI is not perfect yet, far from it. It's gathering data. I'll give you a perfect example about you, even you, Ron story, Jr. If you go into AI and say, hey, write 10 questions for Ron story about his book. 100 miles, right, because you can do this. None of the questions really, that the AI came up with our pertinent to what we're talking about radio right now. So the reality is, is that it isn't perfect, yet. It's going to continue to get better. The more data that's fed into it, the more questions it's asked, it'll become ready. You said myth number five, and then we'll finish with the mess is I'm not ready to be seen as an authority. And I think again, that's programming in People's Park. That is a fear associated with they've got to know everything we used to have saying because I was in the financial services business, just like you and I spent many years there. We there was a gentleman in the office and you'll get this. They would say he would you would ask him a question. He would go on and on and on and on and on about annuities or pension plans, or whatever it was whatever it was. And I would say to him, hey, Don, his name was Don, I only asked you what time it was. I didn't ask you how you made the watch. Right? Right, because they think they got to know everything about everything you don't. Because when someone asks you a question, really listen to the question carefully. They don't want to know how you made the watch. They just want to know what time it is. Or ask you what time it was. Right? You get what I'm saying?
Ron Story Jr
Yeah, well, 100%, I think a lot of times, let's think of it this way, right? Before the internet. Our communities were very small. So in the office that you mentioned, there was a go to guy the office for annuities. There was a go to guy in the office for mutual funds, there was a go to guy in the office for how to close the deal, or how to work with corporate clients or whatever. So our communities were small, right? And then as the Internet came out, our communities got bigger and bigger and bigger. So everybody was starting to see, well, I need to know everything. And, you know, and I'm just not ready yet. So this insecurity came, as if we had access to everybody. We don't everybody doesn't know who I am. But for those who know who I am, they know what I'm good at. Right? So let me give you an example. Even if you're not, even if you don't feel like you're ready to be an authority, you already honor somebody. Right? So if they're gonna put you in a box anyway, you may as well tell them which box to put you. Right. So when I was in St. Louis, and I first got in, first got involved with software, everybody in the software world, they know how to code. So I wanted to set myself apart from them, and say, Dude, I can't code but you don't know how to sell. So I became known as the sales guy around the software community in St. Louis, because I never wanted to be the coder guy. I wanted to be known as the guy that can help with sales. So I begin to build clients and things around that, because they were gonna call me something, I didn't want them to call me the stupid coder. Because I was the worst person ever build a goat, I would rather than God be the best salesperson, right? So you're gonna be put in a box, at least tell them which box to put you.
Greg Voisen
So you talk about in the book and your fourth chapter. Everything you say is bullshit. You talk about the Diddy, and the Kardashians and Dr. Phil and oz. But you say the key to authority position is third party validation. So many people rely on that. They're like, hey, well, it was endorsed by Kim Kardashian, or it was endorsed by Dr. Phil, or as endorsed by Dr. Oz. Most people don't care what you know, until they know what other people care about your knowing it. Right. Speak with that if you would, because I think for a lot of people, there's a trepidation they're thinking that, you know, I've got to have that to make it.
Ron Story Jr
Well, so here's the there's two sides of it, right? I think it's like we could think of Oprah Winfrey. Dr. Phil, we know him because of Oprah Winfrey, right? He was actually like, a court witness an expert witness in our beef case 20 years ago. And she realized he had such a great personality. She invited him on the show, when she realized that he was really a psychologist. Right, right. But that endorsement, got exposure that he needed, right? But somebody that the world trusted referred that person to their audience, which is what you're doing with me right now. You're introducing me to your audience, right? Now, imagine if I got on here. And I was just an idiot. And I was just lying. And I was making up things. And you're like, dude, like, what are you doing? First off this episode probably wouldn't come out. Right? You
Greg Voisen
wouldn't dare. Yeah. In the same
Ron Story Jr
thing with Oprah right? Because her audience trusts that. As OPRAH You got to bring people that are credible in front of us, right? So you can have all the endorsements, but if you don't have the goods, that can be the worst thing that ever happened to you. There's a guy out there right now called the liver King. Right liver detox liver, like the
Greg Voisen
liver IV or your liver. Yeah.
Ron Story Jr
And he talks about eating raw animal parts and all of this stuff, and how he follows these and he's everything. I mean, he's he was on everybody's podcast, and then he got exposed that he was doing steroids and he wasn't any of that stuff. Totally is tilt this business that
Greg Voisen
well, you know, you run a been in through this pandemic like everybody else, and I got approached I had to choose who was going to put on the podcast, because of the range of information that we see no disinformation is everywhere. You can get information, but can you rely on it? Is it credible? Is the personnel knowledgeable? And on one far side of it would, you know, would be just these extremists that would say, you know, you're not going to wear a mask you don't need to get. You don't need to have a vaccine? You don't you know, and all you need to do is this, this, and this, and this, and you're going to be thoroughly protected. And I got caught in the middle a couple of times, I'll have to tell you because it was like, well, you know, Robert Kennedy, Jr. was one of those right. And then on the other side, you're thinking, well, he's a big authority, who is the President's, you know, son, right. And you're like thinking to yourself, jeez, Louise, where did these extremist views come from? And I won't go down this path much. But what I will say is, as somebody who's out there, and you're DB cast is a way to get on podcasts. You have to be discerning, don't you?
Ron Story Jr
Yeah, you definitely have to be. And the reason being is the way let's look at crypto, right?
Greg Voisen
Here's another one same goes.
Ron Story Jr
Yeah, like everybody, Tom Brady, Steph Curry, all of these people were endorsing FTX and sandbank been free,
Greg Voisen
right. And McDonough got sued? Yeah, exactly.
Ron Story Jr
A lot of them are still getting sued. A lot of YouTubers are getting sued for pushing this platform, right? So he had the third party credibility, but he didn't have the ethics, or the other real part of it. So third party credibility can be a great thing that can propel those that have the goods into greatness. But it also can destroy the trust with the marketplace and with everyone else. Like nobody would ever endorse anything that that guy ever did again. Right? So I think that it's very important to have ethics. And but then it's also important to podcasters, like you, like you're doing is, hey, do some background checks and some vetting before you embarrass yourself and destroy your platform with the referral.
Greg Voisen
Well, the good thing about you is, I don't I think you guys reached out to us, which is what you do, because this is a great segue to this because opportunity for you to talk about your pitch dB. You know, you've come up with this software behind this engine, there's an engine running this, and it's a huge database. And you basically sell the database for a subscription to people who want to get out there and influence audiences. So to speak a little bit about how it works. Why would help authors, why it would help insurance people Why would help almost anybody, because really, when you look at it, I don't know what the number of podcasts are right now. What are we? Are we in excess of, you know, a couple million shows at this point? I don't I don't have any idea. But there's a lot of podcasts out there. But there's also pardon me friends, there's a lot of shit out there as well. So you got to have a way to like, screen through it, determine where you want to be get focused, and your DB software does that. Tell the listeners a little bit about that? Why they might want to consider it.
Ron Story Jr
Yeah, so if you have a perspective to share, the next thing you need is a platform, right? So if you don't have an audience of your own, or you're not going to buy a Superbowl commercial, or you don't host a syndicated radio show, you need a platform to share that message with. Right. So one of the things that I saw was that podcasting was growing at a rate that was faster than anything else out there was growing during the pandemic. It was fascinating YouTube channels and everything. But there's
Greg Voisen
also realize there's very low barrier to entry now. Yep, exactly. When I first started this 16 years ago, I went there was a barrier to entry. But everything's become and I'm only making this commentary because I'm not against it. I'm not for it. I'm neutral. I'm just saying that. There's a massive number of people in this business, podcasting business as a result of it becoming it no barrier to entry. You got a microphone, you got a camera, you got zoom. You want to reach out to people you can be upon
Ron Story Jr
Gaster 100% this the same way that YouTube made television accessible to everybody, if you have a cell phone, you can create a YouTube channel. And you can compete with ABC, CBS, Mr. Beast has 100, almost 200 million subscribers to his YouTube channel, right? Every video he puts out gets 100 million views within the first week. Right? So if all you need is a phone and you can compete, but there's another side of it, right? So the same way that YouTube, its algorithm doesn't promote every channel. So every YouTube video doesn't have 18 million views, right, the cream rises to the top naturally. Right? So experienced podcasters are gonna be a bit more discerning on who they let on their show, right versus the podcast at the bottom who's just trying to save some time. Because you don't want to spend the three hours doing the research and reading a person's book and hopping on for an hour pre interview to make sure that they have the goods, those are low barrier to entry shows, but they probably have poor audiences also, right. So as you get better, this is the way I think about it as a person starts out, I think they should go on every show that they can just to get the feel of how it feels to be on a podcast. And then you start to work your way up into better shows over time. Me myself, I do three podcasts a week. So over time, I've gotten a lot better if you listen to my first podcast in 2014, I was terrible. Right? I may still be terrible in some people's eyes today. But what I'm trying to do is to constantly get better with more exposure and more practice. So that's what pitch DB allows anyone who has a perspective to hop on and search on 3.1 million podcasts 150,000 local associations for speaking gigs, and about 39,000 media outlet contacts.
Greg Voisen
Well, what can they expect Ron, if they subscribe, this says the plan is free, but very limited DB pitch passive. So click here for pitch DB passive or pitch here, or click here for proactive? Explain that the two. And if you would kind of explain, you know, what is this subscription cost if somebody really wants to get in here and start playing inside of this database that you've developed?
Ron Story Jr
Well, 100%, right. So if someone wants to start using pitch dB, they can sign up for free and look inside and see what we do. And we give you some free pitches so that you could reach out to podcasters media outlets or speaking gigs cost you nothing, right? The limitation comes on the number of people that you can reach out to, right, you can see everything you can use all the features that are inside to understand what we're trying to accomplish. So we call that pitch DB passive. Why? Because you can create a profile and wait on podcasters to reach out to you if you don't want to do the outreach on your own. Right. But what we do know based on our data is that most people are booked by being proactive, Gregg voice and wasn't looking for me. Right? It's correct. I had to go through and I had to find the podcast I thought would be a great fit for. And then we reached out to you saying hey, are you looking for interesting guests? We had a conversation. I'm here today, right? So that's the difference. Passive account is where you're waiting on podcasters to look for you, where you enter your information into the database. A proactive account is where you're saying, I'm not gonna wait on him. I'm gonna go and tell him how great I am. And what's the
Greg Voisen
difference in pricing for those Ron subscription lies. So let's say they want to go in and they want to be proactive. They want to search the database, and then they're going to search out 28 podcasts that they'd like to go, you know, send a pitch to, and the email gets generated, I'm sure through your service, right? And then it shows up, as what does that show up? As? Is it coming through a PR agency? Is it just coming from them? What does it look like?
Ron Story Jr
So the email comes directly from your account, you will connect your account to our database, right. And then when you send an email from inside of the database, after you've created your list, it goes out directly from you. We're just the invisible machine that's running it. We don't put sent from an iPhone at the bottom or sent from pitch dB. We don't do any of that. We want you to be able to be as professional as possible when you do your outreach. Right. So for all
Greg Voisen
of my authors that come on this show, let me just use this as an example because we you know, we have people that write books. We got lots of them, right? So here's one, Dan Same with this eruption, you know, a new approach to navigating a person like Linda, I'm just going to use this as an example, could subscribe to your service, and literally proactively start to send a campaign that would go out to podcast hosts, who would be looking for people in the genre of business. You know, in other words, we want to narrow it down. We don't want to just get anytime dhikr airy as a podcast so as to be on I've got some is that a good example of how can be used and then also for, let's just take them financial services industry? Same situation, there's lots of everybody would love to probably be on? You know, let's just say Tim Ferriss, right, that he does a lot of podcasts on health and, you know, nutrition and wellness, and he gets on all these places, because he's Tim Ferriss, right, four day workweek guy. But the reality of them go into Tim Ferriss and actually getting on this show, is pretty unrealistic, to be honest with you. And it probably isn't going to happen if they want to go to Joe Rogan, it probably isn't going to happen. Right?
Ron Story Jr
Exactly. So to try to get on Tim Ferriss, and Joe Rogan, that's the equivalent of just sending a cold email, but good morning in there, these are the top of the top podcasters, right. But most people don't need to be in front of 100 million people to be effective. Right. So if you need to get on a podcast that has 1000 downloads, that's equivalent to being referred to 1000 people, or giving a speech in front of an audience of 1000 people, if you can't be effective there, you're probably going to blow your opportunity. Because that being of Joe Rogan is once being on Tim Ferriss is probably going to be once right, you're not going to be on there every week. So right you don't want to blow that opportunity. But what you can do is fine. I like to say it this way, in the past, the world was controlled by megaphones, NBC, CBS, FOX, ABC, big news channels that have large audiences, right today, the world is controlled by microphones, I can go into a little sliver of the market that only wants to talk about what I'm good at, and be the best for them. And talk in detail, use their jargon, talk exactly for them. So that disruption book that you just held up, that person can go in and type in disruption in the business category. And it'll take the 3 million podcasts and give him probably 100 podcasts that talk about disruptive, innovative business ideas. Those are the 100 He should go on?
Greg Voisen
Well, I think I think you provide a valuable service. And there's a lot of people that don't know about, obviously, pitch dB. And it is a broad breadth way that it could be used if people are looking to expose themselves to audiences. And that is very minimal cost. In comparison to if you hired, I'll just use an example. We have people that come to us that are pitched by PR firms where they're paying these PR firms. And I could mention many names. Anyone made to $10,000 a month, right? When they're trying to get their book all the way into the stratosphere with Amazon or whatever, which I think I'm in my personal opinion is kind of a ridiculous concept. But the reality is, is that, you know, you think about it, and the minimum contract is for four months. So you're talking about 32,000 to $40,000, that you're going to pay a firm to do I'm not saying it's doing the same thing that pitch DB is because there's one element that's missing, and that's the you inside the DB, you have to be proactive to make the software work. Okay. The reason that the PR companies get paid is because they have relationships with people like me. And they literally when they pitch me, they go, hey, I got another new book, do you want to put this guy on your show? He's a world famous, whatever, whatever it is. And a lot of times I read that and I go, Yeah, this is a great, it fits our lane, right? And many times I say no, I'm passing, I'm not going to do it. Right. The key there is the proactivity of the person behind the software to take the action to make the pitches. Would you say that's true or not?
Ron Story Jr
Yes. As an author, I think the one thing that most authors miss is that once you write a book, your book is a product. If you're if you wrote the book alone, and it's your main product, you're the salesperson of that product, right so the sales activity of an author theater is getting it on shelves or getting it in the ears of potential customers. And so in order to get the platform to get it into the minds of your audience, you have to be willing to deal with some of that rejection, because everybody's not going to love you. So let's say for instance, you bought the $97, a month pitch DB plan, you can reach out to 100, podcasters or 100 local associations, and go give live lunch and learns in your local area, like we talked about, right? You can go and dominate your local market using pitch dB. And then you'll probably make back that $97. Right. But you'll reach out to 100. If it's a podcast, you will probably be booked on 10 to 15 shows. If the average podcast has 600 downloads 7000 people found out about
Greg Voisen
you via referral, and Enron what you're doing is, in one essence, it is very disruptive, because these lists that you've accumulated, while they've been out there on Google, you had to do a lot of work to pull it all together, right? I mean, the $87 or 97, they're paying you is far less than the cost it would be to hire some third person over in Philippines to do all the research and bring back the data and build a database and then put it on HubSpot and send out the emails and whatever Ron does this for you turnkey. So for all of my listeners, no matter what your business is, you really should take a look at this because this is my way of showing you an opportunity that's available. Have I used it? I have not. But the reality is do I know it works. Ron's living proof he got on the show, as a result of using his own software. So there you go. Does it mean that I'm not going to use it? No, I think when I hang up here with Ron and have a conversation about how this could be used. So for all of you who are listening, and you're still listening, thank you, Ron, how would you like to kind of pull this all together between your book The First 100 Miles that you're going to give away? And we'll put a link to that where people can just download the PDF of this book? And then secondly, how this kind of all relates to building influence and, you know, becoming more of an influencer, and wiping away the last part of this, those five myths that we believe about ourselves.
Ron Story Jr
Yep. So the one thing that I know about life is, if you do something for long enough, you can't help to be again up, but to get better at it. Right? So I started playing golf years ago, I keep playing, I get a little better every time I go out. Right. So when you first start off trying to build authority, you're gonna feel nervous, right, but just keep fighting through that nervousness, because you're just nervous because it's unknown. But as you get on more podcasts, you do more speaking gigs, you start promoting your books more, you know, doing, you know, in person signings at Barnes and Nobles, whatever you're doing, you'll get better at it. So that's what we're trying to promote with the first 100 Miles start locally where people appreciate you a little bit more, go on more podcasts where you can do it from the comfort of your own home, instead of from the stranger stage. So if you go to pitch db.com/book, you can get a copy of the book, the first 100 miles, or I'm going to make a special deal for you. If you go to pitch db.com/greg. Right, I'm gonna give you an opportunity to pay once for pitch dB, and you will get access to it for life. We will give you new pitches every month for one low time payment. Okay, one low one time payments, so you don't have to pay monthly. If you go to pitch tv.com/greg I will give you an opportunity to buy a lifetime account that will get you on a minimum of two podcasts a month. Beautiful. I think that's fair.
Greg Voisen
I think it's totally fair. And for all my listeners, we'll put the link up to that so that you can get there and get his lifetime access to pitch TV. A question for you because some of the people out there may be interested in knowing your focus is podcasts. Is there any other media focus in the database like you were just saying? These are mics but NBC CBS ABC News shows are there data's in there with contact or is that still the citizen route? Because that's usually where people go to get information when they want to pitch the morning show producer of the Local, let's say call it met in or St. Louis. And so there's a little local morning show that's done on that called Good Morning, St. Louis. And they want to get this the producer, does this include any of those kinds of contacts are not
Ron Story Jr
100%? It does it dies. Okay. So Pigeonly B is A is for any platform where you want to go talk, whether that's a podcast, alive, speaking gig, local associations, magazines, radio stations, television stations, Ted Talks, blogs, we have over 3 million contacts, in the database with the editors, with the CEOs with the event planners, right? If you want,
Greg Voisen
Are they broken down? Like when you buy this run? Just and then I want to I don't want to belabor this because people just go and download it for free and try it out. But is it? Is it broken down by like say, hey, I want to get an email and a phone number. And I want to send them a book. And do I have an address? And can I rely on this database staying up to date? There's a lot of questions people would ask maybe on the other end of this. Tell us about that real quick. Yep.
Ron Story Jr
So the podcast database is updated live. So the podcast, every podcast that was published today is in there today. Okay, right. So the podcast database is live, the speaking database, and the organization database is updated regularly. Because speaking gigs come and go. Right? So we're always putting new speaking gigs into the system. We actually have a speaking gig update scheduled for this week. But the local associations, those you get the phone number, you get the local address. You can sort by city, state zip code, we give you the phone numbers, email addresses, everything that we have.
Greg Voisen
Is there meeting event planners in there as well? Oh, no. Oh, there is Yeah. Okay. So look, everybody who is out there in Wonderland, you wrote a book, you wrote a white paper, you're a financial planner, you're anybody in the market that's trying to reach a bigger audience, and you're trying to influence and you want to drill this down to a certain zip code, the way I'm hearing it is like, I can put in five zip codes. I'm gonna drill it down, and I'm gonna find people in that zip code, especially if I'm looking to speak in St. Louis, or I'm looking to speak in San Diego. So this is a great opportunity, he's going to give you a lifetime offer for this. Ron, thank you for being on inside personal growth and sharing, not only your invention here, which is this database, but also a little bit about the 100 miles, how you would actually go and become a local expert before you become a national expert. We actually tell all of our authors look, go local before you go national. And that there's truth to that, because you know, when you look at the rings and spheres of influence, say come down here, it's a smaller audience. When you get out here, it's millions and millions and millions of people. But down here, it may only be 10,000 people. Right? So you're the guy. Thank you, Ron. Thanks for joining us and spending time. I appreciate it. I learned a lot from you. And it's always a pleasure having somebody like you on who is allowing people to kind of understand how to expand their platform.
Ron Story Jr
I think that's the most important thing. A voice on heard is probably the world's greatest resource. I think your audience has a great voice. It needs to get out there. They need to share their voice with more people.
Greg Voisen
Well, I appreciate you and I appreciate what you've done to pull all this together and the back end and all the people helping you to put this together. So thank you for pitch TV, and thank you, Ron, for being on the show.
Ron Story Jr
Thank you for having me.
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Inside Personal Growth with Greg Voisen · Podcast 1016: Reawakening the Human Spirit with Lance SecretanMy guest for today’s episode is spiritual thought leader and bestselling author, Lance Secretan. Lance is a no stranger here in Inside Personal Growth. He’s been here several times already and now, he’s back for his latest book entitled Reawakening the Human Spirit: Finding the SPARK, the FLAME, and the TORCH which was just released last April 27.
Dr. Lance Secretan is known as the world’s top authority on inspirational leadership as his bestselling books, inspirational talks, and life-changing retreats have touched the hearts and minds of hundreds of thousands of people worldwide. Lance has received many awards and recognitions including the 12 consecutive years of being ranked among both The Top 30 Most Influential Executive Coaches and The Top 30 Most Influential Leadership Experts globally.
Lance just released a new good-to-read book entitled Reawakening the Human Spirit: Finding the SPARK, the FLAME, and the TORCH. In this book, we will find a life-plan for reorienting your life, your perspectives, and your well-being. Also, it will help us gain a new and deeper insight into our life and the inspiring role you were born to play―as a leader, parent, sibling, offspring, friend, citizen, and human being.
Know more about Dr. Lance and his amazing works by clicking this link to visit his website.
I hope you enjoy my engaging interview with Dr. Lance Secretan. Happy listening!
You may also refer to the transcripts below for the full transciption (not edited) of the interview.
Interview Transcipt -Not EditedEmailDownloadNew TabGreg Voisen
Welcome back to Inside Personal Growth. This is Greg Voisen the host of Inside Personal Growth. And we have Dr. Lance Secretan joining us and he is no stranger to Inside Personal Growth. He's been on the show many times for well, it says he's done 24 books. I think it's actually been more than that. But at least his bio says 24. Good day, Dr. Lance, how are you, my friend?
Lance Secretan
Thank you. Thanks for inviting me.
Greg Voisen
Well, it's good to have you back on again. And speaking about another new, fascinating book. For all of you who are joining us on video, you can actually see on his screen, awakening the human spirit. It's in the upper left hand corner of his video. We do not have a book here in studio. Lance, do you have a book close by that you can go like this with?
Lance Secretan
Yeah,
Greg Voisen
There we go. There's the new book. That's it. You know. So everybody who is interested, we'll put a link to Amazon Lance has just basically shown you a copy of the book. And I would say definitely go out and get it. And we'll let the listeners know. Something about Lance, for all those of you who are in corporate America listening to this show, and you're like, who is this guy? We don't know who he is. And believe it or not, Lance, it's the speed of you and I in our current ages, there might be some people out there that don't know who we are.
Lance Secretan
Well, I've been around. Most of them have been a lot.
Greg Voisen
Exactly. So Dr. land sector. 10 is a spiritual thought leader, the world's top authority on inspirational leadership, a trailblazing teacher, advisor and an expert on corporate culture, whose bestselling books, inspirational talks, and life changing retreats have touched the hearts and minds of hundreds of 1000s of people worldwide. As it says in his bio, he's the author of 24 books about leadership, inspiration, corporate culture and entrepreneurship as well as award winning memoir, a love story. And he is the author of dozens more his latest book, The one we're speaking about today, reawakening the human spirit. Lance is a riveting speaker, I've actually seen him and I was in New Mexico, the first time that I saw him. I've actually been to his house in the outskirts of Toronto doing a retreat. And he's just a fascinating guy. He's a former CEO of fortune 100, company, university professor, award winning calmness, poet, author, outdoor athlete, he teaches coaches and advisors globally. And he's in the top 30 Most Influential executive coaches, and the top 30 Most Influential leadership experts. So and it goes on, but he is a true soul who's interested in helping people. And this shows about personal growth, their own personal growth and transformation. And that's what this latest book is, is about. And all of us know that in corporate America, let's face it, there is issues with today, Lance, what we would say, stress, okay, and the stresses are coming, whether self-induced or not, they're there. And corporate America is trying to deal with him. What would you say in the main theme of this book, would be about helping people deal with and coping with not only their personalized, but working in a very stressful corporate life?
Lance Secretan
Well, it's interesting, you raised the subject of stress, because in the early part of the book, I make the point that stress is a choice. Stress isn't something that happens to us, we choose this. If I'm driving on the highway, somebody cuts me off in the traffic. I can have a choice and get mad and shake my fist and flip the bird and be angry and make sure Yeah, make sure that person knows how stupid I think he is. But all that does is put me in stress. Or I can wait and say Have a nice day. I'm really grateful for the life I have. Move on. That's a choice.
Greg Voisen
I agree that stress is a choice. And the key is to be able to take a deep breath and reframe where you are and you are a great meditator. You are somebody who's into mindfulness but You're saying and I wouldn't say you argue, but that we artificially separate home and work. And lots of other things too. And that this book is about people, human beings, not titles. Okay. in corporate America, we still are using titles people are, you know, it's like is EVP and sales? Is he the CEO? Is she the head of HR? You say you go on to explain that we're simply people in different scenarios and our values, behaviors and spiritual quotes should be consistent all aspects of our lives. I get that. Okay. How do you help people in this world make that transition? And what is meant by the spark, the flame and the torch?
Lance Secretan
Questions? Well, let me just start by saying, Well, there's
Greg Voisen
one question core to it, which I'll say, is this separation between home and work? Um, you made it very clear to me that it should be one. And I go back to the day of going to conferences, which you were at many of those. And it was called spirituality in the workplace. By the Galva. It's now down in what is her name, she started working for the Sam Walton in the Walmart university area down there. And my point was way back, then, and I'm saying 30 years ago, we were talking about spirituality in the workplace. Right, let's talk about this separation between work and home.
Lance Secretan
Well, listen, I mean, the reality is, especially as we're seeing this, with the work from home phenomenon, and so on, what happened during COVID Is that the creation of a separate existence called work is artificial. Yep, no, this. The first time we ever use the word work, was in the 1600s. We didn't have a place to go to work. There was nowhere to go to if you were a blacksmith, it was in the back of your house. So you know, what if you're hungry when I've got to do it, so you didn't go to the supermarket? There's nobody to go to work. So we invented the word when we started building factories. And when we started building offices, and so we've been using work now for, shall we say, 500 years. But then COVID happened. And look what happened, we went back to where we were 500 years ago, working from home, again, this is natural, we should understand that. That's one thing. The second thing is this. We treat business as a separate entity. We have language that's unique to business, we only talk certain jargon and so on in business, we do things in business that we would never do anywhere else. We destroy the competition, you wouldn't do that at home. We have performance appraisals, you wouldn't do that at home, would you have a performance appraisal with your spouse by Monday, it's that time of year we're gonna have a little conversation about your budget and your 360 and KPIs and so on. You get thrown out as part of conversation like that, because it's demeaning, disrespectful, and, frankly, useless. So that's the whole package of things around what we're doing at work and how we're messing it up is one issue, but a bigger issue than that, is that the world is hurting right now. All around so we've got so many things happening. That feels so heavy for so many people Ukraine COVID polarization climate change, inflation, job loss, you name it, I mean, it's just endless and I can't fix these things none of us can fix them. I can't fix you there's nothing I can do about that.
Greg Voisen
You know, your book argues that we artificially separating home and work. And lots of other things you say to that we're separating. This is a very divisive world that we live in now that you were just speaking about. And this book is about people, human beings, not titles. It's a bit goes on to explain that we're simply people in different scenarios, and our values and behaviors and spiritual calls should be consistent. Speak with us about that, because we're not different people at work than we are at home. We're supposed to be the same people. Although we're expected to be different work than we are at home. Yet. How does that work for people? Because you're saying, if today, you asked a population over 80% of them? If they could, they would actually quit their job today, if they had a free choice to do so. And that's pretty alarming statistic, if it's truly 80% that are saying, I don't really want to be here. I'm disengaged. Anyway. That's a tough thing for corporate America.
Lance Secretan
I've asked that question hundreds of times of larger audiences, every single time I've asked it, it's been 80% or more. Yeah, so I think that's a proven fact is, there's a lot of people that if they had a free choice, they would quit. I mean, you don't want to be cleaning toilets all day long. That's not your dream. So you know, lots of people doing things I didn't want to do. Look, I can go down the bottom of my driveway and walk the stranger and hug them and tell them I love them. No problem, they might look at me a little weird, but no problem. If I do that at work, I'm probably going to be taken to the human resource department for a little bit of correction, and behavior training. What's with that I'm a human being, why can I say I love people that I work with their people to what's not with us? Where do we build this? And, frankly, the answer and without going into too much depth. But in an earlier book I wrote called the bellwether effect that you're familiar with, I showed that most of what we do there came from the military, because we didn't know how to run companies. And so we turned to the military and said, what are they doing in leadership? How do they find pilots that die in the war? That was called a performance appraisal? What is a battleship strategy? That's called the mission? Well, you know, we've got those things in business. Now. That's what happened. So now we need to say, wait a minute, it's not war. It's not the military. This is just people in different places. We need to inspire them. That's the other key, not leadership, inspiration.
Greg Voisen
And Lance is speaking about that Bellwether effect, you know, why is it that we have a tendency as a species, to wait to the last minute to change anything, and almost has to get to this? You know, disasters? Space? Space? I've had social scientists on here that talk about it. You mentioned a minute ago, we're concerned about Putin, there isn't anything you could do about it. We're concerned about the changing weather patterns in co2 emissions and global warming, are environmental overall, generally, yet, we have a tendency as a species, to wait till it's almost the last minute to try and do something you're trying to tell corporations or inform them? Why are you waiting so long to change this culture so that you would allow something like this to occur yet? This? This meme is there? It's, it exists, right? It's very strong.
Lance Secretan
Right. And we're going to see the collapse of the contract between employees and employers, because employees as you perceive many of the statistics, now they're in charge, and they're going to call the shots. Jen, Generation Z, for example, wants nothing to do with corporate world. And that's, that's tragic. If you get to that place, capitalism is at risk. So we need to think this through carefully. And let me just make this point, right. Why are we dragging people back to the office? And the answer is not because it's efficient, or it builds teams or it's good for the culture, because frankly, we can do that on the internet, too. That's not I mean, yes, of course, human presence is important. But it's not the only way to do this. The reason we're doing this is because people are saying, I've got a fancy flashy office, I've got a big overhead. I need to fill it up with people get your ass over here. That's the wrong reason. That's the wrong reason. We should be saying, right. This is a job that needs to be done here. My job is to figure out what's the best way for you to do that? What would work for you? Well, so
Greg Voisen
How do you develop it? are people out there listening that are in the corporate world? And they're saying, hey, I really appreciate what Lance is saying, but I don't know how to bridge it. How do you build these heartfelt leadership kind of models this this this from traditional models to heartfelt leadership, right. And I know that the torch, I'm sorry that the spark, the flame and the torch have been something you've been carrying around for many, many, many years. And it also is back on the front cover of this book on a subtitle right underneath human spirit. And I think people need to understand that and they maybe don't understand that about you. You've been teaching in corporations for many years. With this is a big kind of turn for you as well. It is.
Lance Secretan
Absolutely, because we have turned I'm trying to keep pace with what's going on in our society. And I think corporate leaders haven't caught up yet. They will. Because when you run out of people, you're gonna have to figure out what you're gonna do about that. Right. But here's his thing. That's, that's failed. I think leadership has failed. Because we spend $170 billion a year on leadership development. We've got 240,000 books on Amazon about leadership, you've got every university program in the country teaching leadership course. And you can't find solid leadership anywhere. Right? Now in Washington, not in corporate America, not in the police, Roman Catholic Church. Health care doesn't matter where you look, it's a mess. So why wouldn't keep doing that? And the answer is that underpinning all of that leadership theory is motivation. Motivation is a fear based system. Yes. That's what we saw with COVID.
Greg Voisen
Not inspiration, motivation.
Lance Secretan
Correct. And an inspiration is a love based system. So what we're actually needing Greg, everywhere, not just at work everywhere, is inspiration. You inspire me, I'll do anything I want. When I pick up a rose and smell it is because I'm inspired by the rose by going go to an Eric Clapton concert. It's because Eric Clapton inspires me. And if he doesn't inspire me anymore, I'm on I'm gone. We fall in love with people who inspire us, we got to work with companies and inspires. And when they stop inspiring us, it's over. So what do we need to learn, and we are very bad at this. We need to learn how to inspire each other. Well,
Greg Voisen
this whole soulful organization concept has been talked about, I'm not certain that it's been ingrained, so much about I remember going to trainings with Richard Barrett and with you and all kinds of people where we were talking about the soul of a business, right? And can you explain what's kind of meant by that? And describe what it means the benefits to the corporate leaders that are listening to us today, of becoming more of a soulful organization versus them going with command and control, which was, as you just said, oh, I'm, I'm demanding you now come back three days a week. Okay, and you're saying, So what really? Is that good? It's gonna do, it's because I'm paying heavy rent on this building, and I need to fill it up again, right? And you need to be here because I want you to be accountable to us, because you're not accountable if you're sitting at home. Right?
Lance Secretan
I don't trust you. In other words, right, right. Yeah. And accountability is one of those words that I was referring to earlier that we use in the workplace that we wouldn't use elsewhere. Right? I wouldn't, I would never say to my spouse, I'm going to hold you accountable for doing that. Right? She threw me out. Right? Why? Why would I take that risk? And yet, I do it every day at work, why but if we're gonna
Greg Voisen
if we're gonna liberate, pardon me for abusing liberate the corporate soul, which is Richards kind of, quote, unquote, thing. And you look at the model, you know, you look at the hierarchy. You know, when you look at all these models that are built there around, you know, getting our basic needs met? Well, we you and I know this, that there isn't much different in somebody's life, whether they're making 50,000 or 100,000, right? Because it's really meaning and purpose in one's life. That brings more fulfillment, that brings more joy. And you're saying none of these people that are there are getting the meaning and fulfillment that they want in that structure that they're in, which is why 80% of them would walk out the door tomorrow. If they had a choice?
Lance Secretan
Well, I just because it's his words and talk, not actions, right. To pick on one example, and you may disagree with me here but last year, the CEO of Google made $226 million. This one person has a quarter last quarter of a billion dollars in case that sort of thing where you'd buy a fighter plane or something, but something like that, right, right. And the same time 20,000 People lost their jobs. Okay, what signal does this say? And now you talk about the family and the soul of the business, wait a minute, this is not computing, right? This is what's wrong, we've got to behave in a way that sends the same message, the way I describe this as the message, and the messenger need to be the same.
Greg Voisen
I don't know if equanimity is the right term that I could say that but the equal illness, right? We're all human beings together. You know, if you were in a very stressful situation, and you're going to help your fellow man, you wouldn't care if they had a million dollars or $50. Right. And I think that's where you're getting to, is, you know, I saw something last night about the kindness project, you know, go around and be kind, you know, just help people out during the day, just, you know, play it play that role. I think most of us would be kind. Many of us might be selfish, but you would like to think that most people would be kind, right? In your case, if you're going to build a soul, based on conscious capitalism, because you just said something a minute ago about capitalism that it's in. It's basically it. It's in parallel. Yeah, that the way in which we're operating today, I think there'd be many that would disagree with you, but I don't disagree with you. But when you take values and mission and my purpose, and you say, I'm going to be a soulful corporation, what does that feel like? For somebody out there who's listening today in HR or a CEO position? They're saying, well, I love everything you're saying, but I don't really know how to get there.
Lance Secretan
Well, one of the things is that it's going to take time, you asked a very good question, earlier wishes, you know what, what with human beings that we wait to the last minute, you might want to ask the Senate Majority Leader and leader of Congress, why they're about to tank the economy, leaving it to the very, very last minute, you know, that's a good question. We keep doing this? Well, the answer is, as you can see from that example, politics is another example of like climate change. It's about self-interest. It's not about the long term. So if we hook up a CEO and executive team to something like a $226 million payout, if you get the profits, right, then all these other things we're talking about are irrelevant, because the only criteria is how much money we're making. Right? And I'm not, I'm not saying money is a bad thing, because it is the capitalist system. And I'm part of that, and I'm all for it. But I think we need to get this thing a little straighter, because I don't know about you, but I don't want to be fired by a man through email that I don't even hear about one to one who just got himself a $226 million paycheck.
Greg Voisen
Yeah, it. It is a dichotomy that exists in this world today about trying to do that. And you can see this fabric starting to fray. Yes, and so many different places in our world. And you said you suggested who we are impacts others and makes a difference in the world more than what we know. Okay, and you use the metaphor of Dalai Lama sitting silent in the room for 15 minutes and inspiring everyone. I've actually seen the Dalai Lama twice in person. And I have to admit, I've never seen a man so jolly as the Dalai Lama. And I was with I was just at the Richie Davidson, who's doing all the studies in Wisconsin, at the University of Wisconsin on, you know, Dalai Lama told him 30 years ago, you need to study not stress and anxiety, but compassion, and love and understanding, and it changed. Dr. Richie Davidson's whole life. I mean, his whole life now has been dedicated to this work. And you know, when you look at the Dalai Lama, and then sitting in a room for 15 minutes why is it in your estimation, that we feel so much more inspired by that energy than we do? Conversely, the energy on the other side where we actually are afraid Yeah, yeah, we feel more fearful in one We feel more present, and joyous and the other
Lance Secretan
loved is why I feel Yes, we feel frightened in the one situation motivation, and loved in the other inspiration to make this clear for people, motivation I described as lighting a fire under someone. Inspiration is lighting a fire within somebody, there's a big difference. We don't do inspiration. We do motivation, like if you hit your sales targets, I'm sending you one a package to Hawaii, that's motivation. If you buy a Corvette today, a big fancy $100,000 car, they won't let you sell that for six months. If you do, you lose your warranty, and you get penalized if you keep it for six months, they give you a $5,000 bonus. That's motivation. We use motivation everywhere in politics, in marketing, in advertising, in leadership, everywhere. It's fear based COVID. Perfect system. fear based systems. Yeah, we don't know how to inspire. And inspiration is about lifting the hearts of people. And if we can do that, we know how to do that. That'll change the world.
Greg Voisen
Well, you know, we talked about the subtitle of his book, and I've had many of your other books. And always the spark and the flame. Let's talk about the spark. Yes, because this is how you actually helped make these shifts is defining ones as you call it destiny, character and calling. And you call it the why be do right. Many listeners out there don't have a clue about your spark and your flame and any of that. And they certainly don't have anything I remember you gave us a little cards with the YB do. Right? So explain if you would, because this is the start of the process for what you now call and ultimately it gets into the castle. We'll get there the principles of the castle.
Lance Secretan
Right. Well, you know, the visible started when I started to research what great leaders did. I wanted to find out living and past leaders. What made them unique, because people were drawn to them. Look at Martin Luther King, for example, people flooded to him. Same thing for Christ. Same thing for Buddha. Same thing now, Mother Teresa, Nelson Mandela, these are all people that people gravitated towards. So there was a magnet there. People felt the passion. What was that? This is what I wanted to study? Well, I know that they had three things, they had a lot of other things, but three things that I really focused on. They knew why they were here. Now when I say that I don't mean I'm here to get my kids to college, and to retire and get on my pension and have a happy life in retirement. I don't mean that. I mean, in the end, when it's all over? Well, you made a difference. As Steve Jobs said, did you put a dent in the universe? So the question became, what was your impact? Did you make it better? You were here for 100 years? Did you do something that was useful? What do you do to sleepwalk through this? That's important. So Ghandi knew why he was here. Martin Luther King knew why they were here. Mother Teresa knew why they were here. That was that was the North Star that guided everything. You could not ship Gandhi from his belief and nonviolence, or Martin Luther King.
Greg Voisen
But don't you see any of those people that you're referencing, and I love the references to Mother Teresa and Gandhi and all these and Dalai Lama. But it's always an inverse relationship and the way in which leadership has worked for years, almost like Robert Greenleaf, right here to serve them or not to serve us. But if you look at Gandhi, it was always about him serving his constituents and all the people that were around him. When you look at Dalai Lama, it's about what can I do to help and serve? Right? But all along, it hasn't been in corporate America about what can I do to help and serve the people that work in here? It's been about what can they do to help and serve me so that stockholder value can go up?
Lance Secretan
That's the military model. You don't you don't serve people in the military either. You tell them what you need done and get it done. And if they send those stories, autocratic command and control, that's the military system. That's what we import it. And we haven't shaken it off. It's still there. We call it different things more fancy language and so on, but it's the same. That's one thing. I mean, I think the other thing is that we have, we are afraid of what it takes. It's not isolated. Right. I mean, think about Patagonia. Patagonia has got a long history of behaving properly as a company. Yeah. Sometimes you give up profits, because you're on a journey. So these leaders knew why they were here. The second thing they knew was their character, how they wanted to be while they're here. How do you want to be known What's your brand and what do you live for nonviolence was Gandhi's brand? Not enough King? Same thing? And what do you want to do? You have certain gifts and talents, high values, those who serve the world. And you know from the names I've mentioned, what they committed themselves to in terms of practice that didn't, that would, what they weren't consultants, or rock and roll stars or firefighters. They knew what they wanted to do. And they did it the way they wanted to do it. So why am I here? How am I going to be? What am I going to do? Why b do. And by the way, a little fun thing here. There's an app on the Android and Apple Stores. It's called Spirit at work cards. It's a book I wrote in 2002. But it's an app now. And you can shake the app and it shuffles the cards. If you want to be inspired, you'll find this app very inspiring. It's free. But there is an upgraded version in the upgrade version, where you shake a card, and you choose to be card, but to be card is the card you chose today. So if you choose courage, today, your job is to be more courageous. And then if you don't like that card, and you go and try and change it and says you can't change it today, you have to live this today. You're going to new car tomorrow. Well, let's
Greg Voisen
let's talk a little bit Lance about love. You know, in the flame section, a player relates to me to lop right. You read and reawakening the human spirit. You describe the castle. Now you've been using this castle for a long time, this isn't new to this book. But these principles, you point out that love people who embody the castle principle. Do you know anyone who embodies the six Castle principles, and that's what I want you to talk about is those six Castle principles. Because at the heart of it, at the heart of it, that's the essence of what we're talking about here is truly it's I love you, you love me. I remember and I don't know if I said this to you. But there's a brown that corner over there. There's a saying from the Dalai Lama. In the end, the only way you're going to be remembered is by the people you love the people that loved you and how much you let go. Right? And you say, well, that's so simple. But really, none of this has to be that complicated.
Lance Secretan
Well, let me tell you a little story. I was I was on a podcast the other day with Marianne Williamson. You know, it's funny. I was reminding I've known Marian for a long time. We're good friends, and
Greg Voisen
she wins. I hope somebody wins us some sanity.
Lance Secretan
Yeah, really. I reminded her that my wife and I went to visit her when she was living in Detroit. and I were having dinner and we skated a house and we're having dinner that evening. And I said, Marianne, I'm so excited. I got this new idea. It's called the castle principles is an acronym and it stands for just to dismiss, stop. Let me guess. C is the courage as for authenticity, SS for service tears, but truthfulness, ellisville love and ears for energy. And my mouth dropped. Like, I've never shared this with anybody. How did you know that? That's amazing. And she's like, well, you know, I know your work. So I can cheat a little bit better, I wouldn't expect you to talk about bombing or something, you know. But at the same time, what we've come up with is remarkable, because there's nothing to remember. That is crucial. You know, it's interesting that the seven habits of highly effective people is probably the most widely used most popular management book and coarse series ever in history. But who can remember them? Right? Most people can remember two or three, maybe account number seven. But the castle principles are sticky because every single one of those Castle principles we were born with, what we've done is forgotten. So we were always courageous. You know, babies are born courageous. They go swimming in toilets and jumping up to the kitchen counters and leaping off all kinds of things and doing all kinds of dangerous stuff. They don't have any fear. They learn fear. They're not born with it. Love is Love is the same what's more loving when the baby but that goes away? After you've been punished a few times and being banged up a few times you learn don't do that. That's not that doesn't pay off, and so on. We tell the truth. And then we get banged up for that. So we stopped telling the truth and we started lying. So this is how we lose it. So all I'm really asking people here is to remember what you've forgotten.
Greg Voisen
who you truly are. More Marianne Williamson got you right off the bat when she knew what all of those were. You know, I had one called the solace stick so you li Sdic and it was spirit optimism and unity love and you know, goes on but my point and truth. You're right. Those are descriptive words that go back to We are who we are, you know, but COVID did two things. First, you said it triggered us going back 500 years because back then we didn't even have a word for work. But it also did something else. And I want to talk about this because this is really, really, really important. isolation, depression, and loneliness of people, right. And we became divided because nobody wanted to get anyone else's germs. Fortunately, that's over now. But it's almost like, it's kind of hung on Lance. And it's been hard to like, and I don't say that it was ever Utopia anyway. But we've got this issue. Now, we got people that are sad, we got people that are depressed, we have corporations now that are dispensing through the medical facilities that they have their medical insurance with more antidepressants than ever have been used before in society. I'm working with a doctor that uses ace adverse childhood experiences, to try and get to the core level of some of these problems. What would you say? Because your book suggests that serving others is a way to remove depression. And I know I have my own nonprofit, I serve the homeless, and I serve the refugees from that are fleeing your Ukraine going to Poland? And I'm buying bicycles for the kids. Okay. But my and my point is, is that how do you help people really realize that giving service to others is a way to get out of the loneliness, and the sadness and the depression. And probably you'll eliminate taking all of those medications to JIRA.
Lance Secretan
And I, you know, the book opens up with a story like that, which is, your, your girlfriend just broke up with you. You're angry, you're mad, you're depressed. So I have a choice. You go home, you binge watch TV, eat Doritos, and pack package by package. Very claps, do a lot of drugs and towel in the world. That's one way of dealing with it. The other is to go out and paint your friend's bedroom wall. And watch what happens when he is great he or she is gratitude shows their gratitude and love in return for the gift you gave them. And notice how you feel as a result that builds you up. So to get over these things we need to and I don't mean to sound harsh when I say this, but we need to get out of our own heads. It's not about us. Yes, we may feel bad, and all kinds of stuff. We all go through things that don't work for us. I'm 84 years old, I've been through a lot of stuff. Right? Now, it's not hurting me. And I've learned from it, I've grown from it. But I'm not I'm not being I'm not depressed. I've never been depressed. But why? Because I serve all the time, my whole life is about serving as yours is. And so you can't be depressed when you're serving, because that's inspiring for other people. And when they're inspired, they inspire you. And this is a key point to by the way, Greg, because we are actually manipulators of each other's biochemistry. So what I'm actually doing with you what if we're, if I'm trying to be inspiring when I'm with you, I am changing the bio chemicals that flow through your body. If I if I introduce fear and motivation to you, I will produce a different set of cortisol, stress hormones, and so on. So, you know, versus oxy
Greg Voisen
toxin. And yes, I want to actually have released, you know, I mean, and it's interesting because of corporate America is looking for more creativity, more innovation, more flow as Stephen Covey calls it in the flow Genome Project. But yet to get to these levels of flow. We look at people who try and hack it. So now you're saying well, can I hack it with, you know, a little micro dose of LSD? Well, the reality is, you don't need it. As long as you're practicing these principles, as long as you understand these principles. You know, look, we love it. corporations want more innovation, they want more creativity, they want all this stuff. They're trying to get that out of the people that work for them. And, you know, I appreciate people that talk about hacking flow, using micro dosing using Ayahuasca using whatever. But again, if you've been practicing these principles and you embed them within your DNA, you don't need to have some kind of substance to do that. Speak with us about love. Because, you know, I will you and I go back to the days of Herb Kelleher handing out m&ms at Southwest Airlines ins because he truly was trying to create the was Luv, by the way, folks, for those of you don't really remember. But he was quite an inspiring guy. Yeah, absolutely. Right. And I think you say leadership. I don't see that many inspiring leaders anymore. Pardon me, but I don't. What I see is hammering leaders. Yeah. It's like they have two hammers. And they're on like,
Lance Secretan
right. Motivation, motivation.
Greg Voisen
Yeah. But I'm even saying leaders in in our, in our country, right. We're, and I'm not saying Mr. Biden is a bad leader. I'm I don't get me wrong, folks. What I'm saying is, we, as a society in North America, let me just let me preface that because that's where most of my listeners come from. We have seen some really strange changes. And I wouldn't call these leaders that we've had inspiring I call him disruptive. But not inspiring,
Lance Secretan
right? Well, you asked me about love. Let me before I do that slow, go back to the spark for a moment because I talked about the why we do. But there are two other pieces, two other pieces in the spark one is about creating a dream. And that's a problem for most people. We have lost our dream. America. America has lost his dream, right? I agree. Yeah, we had got a dream back. That would change everything. But if you have a dream, in the morning, you get up. Because you have a dream. Starbucks, as a company has a dream, not a mission statement, a dream, and it's to be the third place. That's their dream. Microsoft has a dream, the dream is to empower every individual and every organization to achieve more. That's how they've quadrupled their business since second Adela took over. And he's a soulful man. Now, a dream is really important because we fall in love with a dream. And that's inspiring. And we're looking here for ideas that help us to become more inspired. But if you amble through life with no dream, you have no rodder you have no compass, you don't know where you are going. So now back to love. So love is part of the castle principle, CIS G, L, E. So love is a word that we are afraid of, and don't use in the business setting.
Lance Secretan
But if I say to you, Greg, I love you. And I mean that I'm not just saying that perfect on a podcast. I mean, I love you. How do you feel? I feel comforted. You know, I think
Greg Voisen
love is something that brings warmth. You talk about the flame, you know, we're sitting around a fire. There's something that actually magically happens, you know, around a campfire, I've been around many of them in my day. And what really happens is kind of this openness under the stars,
Lance Secretan
to be vulnerable oneness, to talk to talk
Greg Voisen
to your fellow neighbor about something you might not actually talk about. And I think for us holding all of this may be pain or grief or hurt inside. Love is somebody that you feel comfortable enough to tell them your real story. Right. And so I feel thank you for loving me and likewise return and tenfold. I love you because I love what you're doing. I love the fact that you've written another book, nothing stops you, you're unstoppable. And you also are somebody who's wanting to make an impact. You know, not so much one to one, but one to many. You're saying hey, I want to get out here I've got a big dream. And my break dream is that we, you know, we shift the consciousness of corporations such that they're accepting a Have a new way of being. Right. So talk about if you would, and then we'll sum this up because we're getting close to the end of our interview here. The fourth part is the torch. And you put a methodology for coaching, leadership, mentoring, teaching. And really, it's about creating a legacy. Because that's, you know, what you've got to do. And you always talked about your values centered leadership. Speak a little bit about the torch. What results have you Are you experiencing? And what do you hope people will take away from reading reawakening the human spirit?
Lance Secretan
Now, before I go there, let me just finish a point about love. Okay, if you if you're always someone, Greg, that is challenging or difficult. You don't quite know how to handle them, because they're prickly and complicated. Before you say anything, just say this to yourself quietly without them, hearing it just yourself. I love you. Say it again, I love you. And then start your conversation that will change the tone of everything. simple technique. Alright, so there's a torch? Well, a torch is how we go out into the world. And what we do in the world that makes a difference, right? So yeah, we go out there. And we do we, our character in our legacy is how we will be known nothing else is left, the only thing that people will care about after you leave, is what you did while you were here, or like the Dalai Lama says, putting it another way, what your compassion and kindness and love was all about and whether people loved you and you loved others. Right? So that's the end. So what are we do a lot, we do three things. Mastery, chemistry and delivery, we do what we do, as well as we can now straight, we do things with other people. And with nature, that's chemistry, we have a connection, relationship. And then finally, delivery. With people, we identify the needs of others, and we need them. That's the only thing we do those three things, sum up everything in our lives. So now the question becomes, well, if we want to grow, what do we do? Well, we accelerate all of those, and there are accelerators for all of those. And there's a model in there and a coaching device, and so on in that in that reflection, as I call them. And so there's a whole pattern for how we go out into the world. And there's lots of ways of doing this. But the model I've shared here is a powerful way to do that. And indeed, a very powerful coaching model.
Greg Voisen
At the core essence, the lance for every corporate leader who's listening, or VP or HR person or whatever that's listening to this show. Not that they don't know or are unaware of what's going on, they're very aware. They're very aware. What would you tell them or inform them of that could help them transition quicker to a new or revived and your case or reawakened organization?
Lance Secretan
Thanks. One of the things I did when I was the CEO of manpower Limited was I warned shareholders that we could have some bumpy times, because some of the things we wanted to do would take time. And investing in them in the short term would make poor results on the bottom line, temporarily, because that was the investment in the future, but we need them to be okay with that not start selling the stock your day because it didn't do well. Because that's not our long term approach. The long as we do this 90 day thing where we better get the results on the bottom line every 90 days, we lose sight of everything else. So one of the things I think we have to do is sit down with shoulders and say, We need a new contract. And the contract is that we will have some bumpy times. Look what happened to Amazon. People kept buying Amazon stock when it was growing and never made any money. They lost money for years and years and years in the early days. And yet, you know, that's not a problem. They did well, why can't we do that in other organizations? That's one thing but the more important thing really is how we treat each other because the result of that and I've seen this over and over companies I've mentioned Starbucks, Microsoft, Kaiser Permanente, Humana, all kinds of clients that I've worked with over the years and look at the results. Look what happens when we love each other. The first thing I say to a company when they hire me as a consultant. First thing I say is, look how well you've done up to now. Very successful. Imagine what you could do if everybody was inspired?
Greg Voisen
Yeah, it is. And it's a choice. Yes. Like you said at the beginning of this interview style So was the choice, yes, you have a choice. And I think more importantly, if you're awake and aware and alive, you understand the issues to resolve those issues is all about your personal choice to take action, and your personal choice to be vulnerable and available to the people within your organization to actually create the movement, because that's what it's going to take in most companies is a complete movement to create the transformation. And while these words, just kind of like, dangle out there, believe me, they're very, very important. And reawakening the human spirit is more important to the survival of your company, than the next big sale you're going to make over here to somebody, because you won't have anybody to actually follow through on those sales, if you don't really start putting some attention into this, right. So Lance, an honor having you back in to talk about reawakening the human spirit, to speak about even some of the historic principles you've been teaching all together, but you've ingrained into this book, all into one. So instead of you buying 24 books now, you can just go back and you can get this one book. And I would encourage you to go to his website, right? So you can you know, just go to Lance sacristan.com. That's one
Lance Secretan
right, just sec return.
Greg Voisen
Secretary secretary.com. And we'll have a link to that. There. You can learn about his books, you can learn about his consulting, you can learn about what it is that Lance has been doing, as he said he doesn't look it but he's 83. He's been doing this a long time. And he also has associates and coaches out there. So no matter where you are in the country, Lance can help facilitate a transformation like this within your organization, through the people that have trained through his, through his programs, his leadership training program
Lance Secretan
all over the world, actually. Yep, yep.
Greg Voisen
So I would recommend highly recommend if any of this resonated with you in during our last 40 minutes of talking. Definitely reach out, go to second hand.com and you will learn more and pick up a copy of this book on Amazon. You'll learn more there as well get it in Kindle. You can get it in hardback, you can get it in paperback, right Lance, all three, audio and audio. So it's available in all three, four, including audio. Namaste to you, Lance. Thanks for everything. Thanks for being back on the show again and enlivening man inspiring me.
Lance Secretan
Well, thank you. The same for me and for millions of other people. So, Ross, yes. Okay. Well,
Greg Voisen
I It's been millions over the years. I hope they're all still listening.
Lance Secretan
Thank you. Bye.
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Inside Personal Growth with Greg Voisen · Podcast 1015: The Week with Frederic LalouxJoining me this episode is one of the founders of The Week, Frederic Laloux.
Frederic has also written a book series entitled Reinventing Organizations. In fact, the way these books found a way to inspire so many other people is truly a gift and a privilege for him. He was also a former associate partner at McKinsey and Company and received an MBA and a degree in coaching from New Field network.
Now, he lives a simple life, spending much time with his young children and wife Helene, working from home and taking walks in the silent presence of trees. He is focusing now in their non-profit project called The Week. This project is a rite of passage, deeply informed by ancient practices and recent insights from social sciences, that aims to help in facing the climate and environmental breakdown, and finding in people the commitment and joy to help in healing what is being destroyed.
If you want to know more about Frederic and The Week, please click here to visit their website.
I hope you enjoy my engaging interview with Frederic Laloux. Happy listening!
You may also refer to the transcripts below for the full transciption (not edited) of the interview.
Interview Transcipt -Not EditedEmailDownloadNew TabGreg Voisen
Welcome back to Inside Personal Growth. This is Greg Voisen host of Inside Personal Growth. And I have Frederic Laloux joining me from Ithaca, New York. And Frederic's been on the show before about his book, reinventing organizations. And he is taking a different path now a very interesting one, and a very important one. Welcome, Frederic to inside personal Growth.
Frederic Laloux
So good to be back.
Greg Voisen
It's good to have you back. And it's good for you to be speaking about the week. It's for my listeners, it's www.theweek.000. Okay, I make sure I get that right. Oh. And we're going to be talking with you about it and this experience, because I've actually gone through it. And the fact that I'm now going to actually be taking this out to corporations, I think it's very important. But Frederic and his wife, Helene, and a team of videographers and all kinds of other people actually created a three part miniseries, I'm going to call it and you can access it on the internet, you can go again to that website, the week.0 to get there. We'll put a link to that as well. But I'm going to introduce Frederic is a no noose New Guide to this. He tries to square not always easily the many projects he's passionate about with his inner knowing that is meant to live a simple life spending much of his time this family whenever possible in silent presence of trees, and love that he is celebrated business thinker and social entrepreneur. his seminal book, reinventing organization sold more than a million copies in 20 languages. It's widely considered to have opened up a new field of inquiry and practice into more purposeful, soulful, and productive management paradigm is thinking has inspired countless leaders, from startups to large corporations, from nonprofits, from nonprofits to faith movements, from government agencies, to founders, the most impactful climate movements, Sunrise extinction rebellion, is focused on the weak, powerful new approach to inspire mass mobilization, to comfort, the climate and environmental breakdown. For those of you who haven't heard his accent yet, because he hasn't spoken much yet, but he's going to was raised in Belgium. He currently lives in Ithaca, New York, as I said, with his wife, Helene, and their two children. And prior to this, his past life was really, really different. He was a former associate partner at McKinsey and Company and received an MBA and instead and a degree in coaching from New Field network. Well, greetings to Inside Personal Growth again, but we're talking about a different topic this time. You know, you and Helen have a video that you created right at the beginning, when people go to that week.o. What inspired you guys to do this, you know, you talk about meeting with some friends just shows you a picture of you eating healthy foods with them in their backyard. But how did this environmentalism thing between the two of you really get inspired to get to where it is today, because it's come a long way from you guys sitting at the table with some friends talking about we should be more intentional about the way we live.
Frederic Laloux
Yeah, but it really all started there with these friends. These were friends who have kids the same age as ours, and they were, you know, they had to have the courage to really look at what's happening in terms of climate change in terms of environmental breakdown. And, and it made us realize, Elon me that we were sort of still trying to avoid the topic. That, you know, every time we would read an article in the news that tells us about how bad things look, we would read the first few lines, but then you push it away, because we've felt like, ah, this might be too much this feels overwhelming. And, but these friends had the courage to really find out what would happen to them in their lifetime, you know, to their kids. And, and so, it brought a lot in me to think, you know, why don't we do the same thing, you know, if they have the courage to do it, we should be able to have that courage to and we just decided, okay, let's really find out for ourselves. Let's really read what the scientists say, let's look you know, watch some documentaries to really find out. And really, the goal was not so much to look at whatever, you know, icebergs melting, but like what's going to happen to us? You know, in our lifetime here where we live in the United States or back home, you know, our friends My family in Europe. And sure enough, it was a shock. And it's send us on this this journey, we sometimes describe it as sort of a U shaped journey, right? Like the, you know, firstly, you go down quite a bit, because it's heavy stuff, right? Like, quite a bit of fear and anger and shock. But then luckily, we didn't get stuck there, right, we, we bounced back up. And, you know, we came out of this experience, you know, after a few weeks of just determined that this was now going to be central in our lives, that for our own sake, you know, so we're able to say, in 1020 30 years, that we have no regrets, we wanted to roll up our sleeves, and it just gave us a sense of clarity about what's important, and what's less important, and just lots of energy. And, and since then we've met so many people, you know, been mobilized around these topics made way longer than we have, you know, our own awakening started three, four years ago. Some people have been in this, you know, 1020 30 years, I've been in that much longer than
Greg Voisen
I have. But you know, if you go back to the times of Paul Ehrlich and all the people that I've followed and studied, and interviewed for this podcast around environmentalism, you know, it's one thing to write a book about this, or write a research paper, but it's another to do what you guys have done. You know, there's action that has to be taken as a result of it. And, you know, it reminds me of a Rebecca as her first name, the watchman's route. You know, we almost wait until it's doomsday as a species to want to get anything done. Before we change, because we're just who knows what the hell we're waiting for. But it's built into our biology, okay? It just is it's built into the biology. So what's the mission of the week? And since you started the program, how's it been growing? Because I know, look, yours is truly action oriented, what you're trying to do is not only create awareness, but then create action. And it's like I said, it's, it's great to write a book, but that doesn't always create action. It tells people what the problem is, but it doesn't always tell them how to solve it.
Frederic Laloux
Yep. Yeah, you're absolutely right. I mean, when we came out of this, you know, experience for ourselves. And we really realized, you know, what does it duration is that when we decided we wanted to do something about this, we fit, we figured, hey, what we've just been through, you know, is what so many other people are waiting to go through? I mean, so many of us, you know, know that, you know, something is really concerning around the climate and around the environment. But we don't know how to engage, right? Because it, it feels overwhelming, because we feel like, well, you know, what can I do anyway, you know, I'm going to be too small to really make a change. And so it didn't take very long for us to figure out, the problem is not access to information. Right? No information is out there. It's actually that most of us don't want to engage with the information, because we feel that emotionally, it will be overwhelming. So it was clear for us that we weren't going to write another book, or just do a standard documentary that would provide information and facts, because there's tons of them out there. What we wanted to create is actually a space where it's safe enough to engage with that information. Right. And so that's why we devised this, this thing. And it's in our mind, it's not a documentary, but it's a it's a group experience, right? So maybe I should explain a little bit about the week. So the week is a group experience. So something that you do with your friends, your family, or your colleagues or, you know, fellow worshipers in your church or synagogue or new mosque. Anyway, whatever group of people is important to you. And you meet for three times during the week. And every time you come together, you watch a one hour documentary. And in that, you know, that documentary is, is documented with various care of carefully scripted and written in order to make it possible to face these facts in a way that is both very profound, but it's safe enough to actually go there. Right and not do what we've been doing for years before that, which was to try to push away the bad news. And so every time you come together for an hour to watch this documentary, and then we set up a conversation in your group for the next half hour, and you don't need to have a facilitator new group. So whoever organized this, we set up the conversation for you with a little video. And it's really in that conversation that the magic happens, because the group basically, you know, discusses and shares what shows up for them as they go through the same sort of U shaped journey that we've been through, right that's what the three episodes do. So Episode One is quite brutal, it's shares everything that you might have been true Like to avoid, but in a way that is very simple to understand very much about like, hey, what's going to happen to me to my children? You know, in my lifetime, we ask people to calculate how old will you be in 2050? And you know, how old will a child it's important in your life being 2050. And I remember when I did that for myself, and I realized, hey, 2050, my children who are now nine and 12, will be younger than I am today. And I feel pretty young. You know, I realized, like, wow, you know, suddenly 2050 feels very close. And we talked about, like, what do scientists say, will the world look like at that time, so Episode One is quite hard. But we make it safe enough to go there. And then you have a conversation with the group, which means that you're not alone in facing this, you're suddenly there with your friends, you found that you've all seen this together, and you all process it together, right? And then you can't binge watch, that's one of the things you actually have to sit with it for at least 25, four hours. So you know, you actually really grapple with this. And then your second,
Greg Voisen
You know, I think what you and Helen have done and the way that the I'm going to call them little miniseries, I'll keep saying that, because it's kind of what they are, you know, you made it very personal. Even the way the camera has the two of you at the beginning right next to one another at a desk. It's a very personal, like, upfront conversation with people, right? And then throughout this so that my listeners know, I've been through it. So for personal experience. What happened for me was the first video for segment going down to you, as he's talking about, is all about the challenges we're all facing, right. And it did bring up a lot of emotion for the people that were involved. I at one point, that gal from France, who was speaking, I was crying, okay, I literally was crying by what she was saying that she didn't, couldn't predict her future, just like you said, your children, that's what you're looking for. And I think that that emotional aspect, plus the two of you speaking personally, the way you do in the beginning of this, and then you have a third Narrator who's marvelous, by the way, who speaks through much of it as well. And I'm just going to encourage my listeners, you know, go to the weak dot O, and just set up a group yourself, I don't care if it's one person, three people, 25 people, it really works when it's full, smaller. So I wouldn't say get it more than about 20. To do that, it also should be in business as well. That's what I was taught. That's what I was just telling Frederic, I plan to take this to businesses, because businesses can start being more socially responsible, more concerned about the environment, using more sustainable products and things. We can help co2 emissions, we only have co2 emissions are really the biggest thing and temperature rises and keeps rising and keeps rising. We're gonna have floods, we're gonna have fires, we're gonna have all kinds of things that are going to occur. Tell me a little bit about this, because like, making this documentary miniseries was not cheap. You were fortunate enough, from what I heard to be funded through a donation help you create this three series to make it up and it took a while to make I guarantee you this just didn't occur overnight. This film crew worked tirelessly to get this done to get all these people from these different continents. Right? You have people in Europe, that your that your video, how did that happen? How long did it take you to create and shoot and edit this miniseries?
Frederic Laloux
I'll answer the question. But just before that, I just want to say that, you know, the first day is sort of hard because we face the fact but there's some relief, right? Like finally, I have engaged with this, like I no longer need to push the topic away. The second episode, the bottom of the week, we sort of look how we got into this mess and how we pick it out. But then the third episode, like, builds you up again, right? And it's like, full of inspiration. So people come out of this, like, energized. And I mean, the reality we're already seeing is amazing. Like people are so energized by this, that they tend to say like, hey, I've seen it at home. Now I want to bring it into my organization, like you were saying, or people see it inside the workplace. And then they say like, hey, my wife, or my husband or my friends need to see it. So, you know, it's I don't want people to think that it's only hard. It's just the beginning that it's hard. But actually at the end of it, you come out of it really energized to do your part. So back to your question. Yeah, so we, you know, when we just had this clarity that this is what we needed to do, but we had never done films, Ellen, my wife and I, we've written books, but never done films. I didn't even know where to begin, didn't even know how much it would cost. So you know, we talked to film teams and get some idea of how much of a cost and films indeed are expensive and so we I learned to fundraise, which I had not done before. And I was lucky that you know my book, a previous book has been quite successful. So there were a number of others. have entrepreneurs that trusted me and just, you know, made small, medium or larger checks as donations because they believed in this in this vision. And that allowed us to, you know, to fundraise enough money to make the phones happen. And it took us, it took us three years to happen. We, we prototyped, and tested this quite a lot. We actually had 5000 People go through test versions of this, where we simply read scripts to people on Zoom, just to see what the scripts work, because, you know, once you decide on the scripts, you know that the film is locked, it's very hard to change it. So we had like, five successive rounds of testing, and just had grouped after groups go through this and just see, you know, is this working? Because so many of us come into this, like, not sure, like, God, we really want to do this or not want to do this. And, again, what we, what I've learned, the experience is that people tell us all the time, like, oh, I'm so relieved, I finally engaged with the topic, because I knew it was there. And I wasn't really engaging. And I really do believe like, that our children will ask us in 1020 30 years, like, what did you know? And what did you do? Hey, Daddy, why didn't you know, why weren't you at the forefront of this? And so I want to be able to say, hey, you know, I woke up to this, and I did my part. And more than doing my part. It was it was joyful. Right? I like this is I'm convinced that facing the climate emergency, and environmental breakdown is going to be the defining adventure of the next decades, right for humanity, there's no way around it. And so when there's an adventure, we have a choice, right? Like every generation that gets like a big adventure, you know, thrown at them, you know, people who have to free the world from fascism, you know, or like, you know, do you join? Or do you stay on the sidelines? And, and I'd much rather join, join this. And it's,
Greg Voisen
well, it's a, it's a peaceful movement, let's face it, I mean, we're all in it together. And it's all our individual actions that make up the grand total scheme of what's actually happening. And at its best, you know, it's like, well, do I think about that flight that I'm going to take because of the amount of emissions that the plane is going to do. And I'm going to offset it with carbon footprint, my carbon footprint, I noticed that CBS even just the other night on a documentary 60 minutes, was profiling the collection, the air collection units for co2 in Iceland, right. And now you're seeing oil companies, like one of the big ones involved in building more of these plants all over the place that are collecting air intake, and literally shooting the carbon down into the ground and, you know, making it harden. And basically, I think that that is that is that it's one area, we don't know, Fredrik, if that's going to solve the problem, quick enough, fast enough? And I guarantee you it's not, it's going to be helpful. But I'm hopeful. And you were you have three main issues you address in the program? And what role do you believe technology could play in reducing this carbon footprint? Because, you know, it's, it's, there are things going on that you know about that I know about? And it might be good to share one of these things, and what is it that you believe I know, my son, I was talking to him about, you know, just chat CBT. And he's no, my son's very much an environmentalist and a minimalist, and he works at Adobe. And he said, Look, what you guys don't realize is that all these computers that are running, to run Amazon and to run Google and to run CBT, are increasing our carbon footprint, because they're using more electricity, right? And electricity is being created by fossil fuels. And I don't think anyone ever gives that thought, you know, they're like, hey, we're just gonna keep using this. And we're gonna keep developing that. What do you think technology can do to help us as we move forward?
Frederic Laloux
I mean, specifically on carbon. I think technology can play a huge role, right? In particular, renewable energies, right? There is no doubt about it. Like if you want to get off fossil fuels very quickly, solar and wind and to some degrees, you know, new, much safer, smaller nuclear reactors will be the key to that. So there, there is no decarbonisation without these new technologies. So that's great. And they are all sort of ready to be scaled and the prices are going down dramatically. I mean, you know, wind and solar are now cheaper than certainly coal and cheaper than gas in most places of the world. So you know, it's a no brainer. But carbon is only one of the problems we're facing right now. Right, we're talking about two other problems. One is just the collapse of the living systems. I mean, just the collapse of ecosystems, like, every year, all sorts of plants and animals go down by one or 2% Every year, because humans just take over their habitat. And their technology can't do that much. Right there, it's much more of a question of us being mindful, and like your son, you know, realizing that we can be perfectly happy, you know, by questioning our lifestyles. And the same, the third issue we talk about is sort of this pervasive pollution of most people to know about, like, the plastics we've produced have disintegrated into micro plastic that is now everywhere, including in our bloodstream, including in mom's milk that they give to their babies. I mean, it's everywhere. And we have no easy solution for that, I
Greg Voisen
think one of the points that was made that we're consuming a credit card a month. In other words, what I mean that is, in during this video, they break up these microplastics, which are being consumed through foods that we're eating and things that we're ingesting reality is in the air, we're breathing. And it was a wake up for me, I didn't realize that I was eating a credit card a month,
Frederic Laloux
you know, or actually, the week before or for a month or for a
Greg Voisen
month. I mean, it's mind boggling. So, you know, I think for people, it's a wake up call. And like you did you said you have three main platforms, which you address, and, and food insecurity is one of them. And I want you to address that a bit. Because it's not just the food and how it's produced. But it's also the distribution of that food worldwide globally.
Frederic Laloux
Yeah, I mean, so many people, when we think about, you know, the environmental challenges, think about energy, right? We think about renewable energy and electric cars, and they have a big role to play. But very few people realize that our food systems are a major part of the problem. And, you know, could be a real issue 1020 30 years down the road simply to feed us. So they're part of the problem, because a third of all greenhouse gases come from our food systems, not from fossil fuel plants. So even if we go entirely renewable, will still exceed the warming that scientists tell us we should stay below just by keep producing the food, the way we produce it. The fruit system is a pretty horrible system. Like if you actually look at factory farming. Yeah, most of factory farms, we have, like, you know, there's laws that we're not allowed to film inside them, because what's going on inside them is so horrible that, you know, people aren't, aren't really allowed to know.
Greg Voisen
Well, plus, also, and I'd add to and I think, I don't know if many people know, but between the pesticides, and the nitrogen based fertilizers, nitrogen based fertilizers are actually exacerbating the issues that the farmers are using to get the crops to yield what they need to yield, because they need a higher demand for to supply it. But those nitrogen base products and all the runoff that's actually going into the streams and waters in the earth and the oceans is a real issue. But I don't think the average person out there is really focused on nitrogen based fertilizer.
Frederic Laloux
No, that's why we show these things in the film, but in a very sort of accessible way, like, you know, the food that we eat, it's, it's part of the problem. But it's also sort of in a second episode, there is a much more beautiful food system that is emerging. Something that people generally call regenerative agriculture, yes. And there is a chance for us with regenerative agriculture to actually revive ecosystems, and to make food much more secure. So one of the problems is now as the world gets warmer, and as we're lacking water, is that it's not clear if we can continue, you know, to feed everybody and we can already kind of, you know, feed everybody right now, there's, you know, building people who are lacking food, and we in the rich world are lucky enough that most people, you know, have access to food. But if you look at the bread baskets that we have in the Midwest, United States of the European breadbasket, you know, they're all under threat from heat and drought. And, and when
Greg Voisen
they are aqua, the aquifers have been depleted in California here, we are fortunate enough to have this huge rain, which is kind of filled these aquifers again, but the reality is we're talking about over time for my listeners, and they know that this is not late today. Immediately, it's for us to take action today. And you know, I'd like to know if you could share some of the success stories that you might have that have evolved from the 1000s of people that have viewed your miniseries and participated in these sessions. What have you heard from them either individually or corporately, or what's actually brewing at the week?
Frederic Laloux
Let me start from the small to the bigger scale, at the small scale, just we hear just so many groups that tell us like that the conversations they've had with their friends, their family, their colleagues were just the most beautiful conversations that they've ever had. Not only on this topic, but often on any topic, like, it's just, you know, brings people together to share about something that is fundamental to each and every one of our lives in a very deeply respectful way. We've had, like, you know, many conversation, you know, people telling us, like, in our conversation, like, I got closer to my dad, who never understood me around this topic. Or, you know, we, I could, I could share lots of stories simply of like, you know, the beauty of having people engaged on something respectfully, deeply, over three days. And then we, you know, people make changes in their lives, you know, people tell us, like, hey, you know, I sold my second car, I was like, somebody told us, like, we used to have a second, second home, but we needed a plane to get there and then longer made any sense for us to do that. People saying they, you know, I reinvented with our friends how we holiday together, and it's actually much more joyful. And so people just come up with lots of stuff that we would have never imagined. But knowing
Greg Voisen
your background in, in, you know, businesses and consulting businesses, and in these memes, and also, this economic structure we built around consumerism, okay, and you address it in it a little bit, you don't go super, super deep into this area. But I'd like to get it from the horse's mouth. You know, we have already indoctrinated ourselves as a species around this concept of consumption. And the more consumption we have, the more pollution, the more crap ends up in the landfills, and the plastics and all the rest of the stuff that's there. And I think at the core level, though, and I don't know if you'll agree with me, but as I look at all of this, it is really about how and what we're consuming as individuals, because it consumption has a byproduct, and the byproduct is waste. And I don't care what kind of waste it is, you even talked about the chemicals that are going into the system from consumptions of antidepressants and things that people are taking, it's getting into the waterways, and then it's in the water. And I mean, you know, you take this down to the microscopic levels. But I would like you to just address from your standpoint, because you spent so many years inside corporate America, helping businesses grow. Right? What would you say about this level of consumption? And how would you say we ease back from it?
Frederic Laloux
Yeah. I mean, that's why I'm so excited that people take the week inside their workplace and see it with their colleagues, because it brings about beautiful conversations, and then real questions about like, what is our business model? And should we continue the way we do like, two days ago, we received this email from a fast fashion firm, you know, fast fashion, is one of the main respondents, you know, that they're responsible for so much pollution so much. And as we know, it's not even bringing people happiness, right? It's like this endless race where you have to have the latest, to bring in a new word three times, and then throw it away. And so it was just beautiful to see people inside, you know, the leadership team of this fast fashion firm, going through this, and then saying, you know, what, we're super excited to change our model. And they just wrote a lengthy email with like, 50 different actions that they've decided that they want to take on coming out of this film. And I think,
Greg Voisen
Congrats to you. Yeah. Right. I think that's, that's a great example. That's a great example.
Frederic Laloux
And I think part of the reason is, is that in the whole film, like there is no blame and no shame. Right? It's, it's a sort of, like, Hey, we're all trying to figure this out for ourselves, what can we do so that in 1020 30 years, we're proud of what we've done, so that we can look our children in the eye that we can look ourselves in the mirror, and everyone, depending on what your job is, you know who your friends are, you know, we'll have a different answer. And so we don't blame or shame anybody. And so it makes it easy to bring this into organizations who then look at this and then say, like, Okay, wow, yeah, you know, let's look at our own actions, and what can we change? What can we improve? Another beautiful stories that we've had is one of the wealthiest families in the world, shareholder family, they own businesses that employ over a million people. And, you know, they're like, it's different generations. And there's a group of three people who have watched version of the week and then they So we have to have other family members watch this. And they've had over 100 family members now go through this. And you know, it's behind closed doors, these very wealthy people, you know that. Normally, you know, you don't get access to we don't have access, but the films got in there. And now, suddenly, you have these different generations talking to each other where the young kids say to the older ones who sit on the boards of these companies, hey, we need to change like we want this to change. And coming out of that, not only through what we've done, you know, there was stuff already going on, but I'm sure it played a part, they've decided now that the top 60 presidents and CEOs of the family groups would all spend seven full days learning about the climate and making climate plans for their different organizations.
Greg Voisen
Congratulations, congratulations, that's, that's a big win. It's a very big win, you don't have to mention the companies, we all kind of get it. And I know it's private. But so thank you for that, because I think just that in itself could make a huge impact. But again, it does come down to something that is simple about consumption, I'm not certain you or I can answer this, because they don't know if we have enough background or expertise or knowledge. But when somebody manufactures something for consumption, and people in the world rely on wages, and salaries are the manufacturing and consumption and distribution and everything of that particular product, whether it's apple, or it's Nike, wherever it is, there's an issue here, because we have advertisers every day on TV and the media news, trying to sell us that we're not enough, and you talk about enoughness in this. And it's this whole prevailing issue of enoughness, that really is sustaining that model. Because people are not feeling enough. So they gotta get a new this or a new that or we got to change this, or we're going to do that or, you know, it's endless. It's endless. It's an endless cycle. Talk, if you would a bit about that, as it relates to the week.
Frederic Laloux
Yeah. I mean, we live in a strange world where, you know, a lot of people don't get their basic needs that are met. Right. But then on the other hand, there's many people, middle class and up who are on this constant rat race, because there's this constant injunction from advertising, that, you know, you can't possibly be happy the way you are, right? You're not enough, you know, and then they dangle string in front of us and tell us, you know, if you only own this, then you will finally be being afraid it's real. It's a real race. I mean, if these advertisers spent billions of dollars doing that, it's because it's effective. We talking to film about an inflection point or a particular moment, that happened in United States in the 1920s. There was a moment where businesses realize that there was a new generation growing up, whose basic needs were met. And then they were wondering, hey, if their basic needs are met, you know, what more can we sell them if they're already content, like their basic needs are met. And they found that like, you know, the only way to do that is to, you know, advertise and create false needs, needs that actually don't exist. And then we satisfy them. And as soon as they're satisfied, we create more false needs. And there's an actual report that people did under the Hoover administration that talks about, like how we will use advertising to create national needs that don't exist, so that we keep, you know, selling, keep the
Greg Voisen
economy going. You know, it's interesting, you say that, because the reality is, is that you got, we've gotten to the heart of it, the heart of it is really what you address in the video around enoughness, this feeling of not having enough, and then us consuming more of something that we don't really need, is it a need? Or is it a want? And it's pervasive in this western world? I won't say it's pervasive everywhere. But it is pervasive in the western world where we're consuming, probably 80% of the resources. And I think when you look at happiness, because happiness is what underneath that is one of the psychological issues, that that if I get that new car, I get that new jacket or I get whatever, it's going to make me happier. And the reality is, is the studies have shown and I think, our listening audience, whether you're making 50,000 I think it was or 60,000 or 100, the degree of happiness didn't go up by the amount of money that you actually made. There's a certain point where it didn't matter if it was 50,000 or it was 100,000 You're not any Is likelier to be any happy? And I think that's the key. It's a key part of this. So, you know, moving forward, I'm certainly going to continue to promote this. What are your hopes for the screenings in the week as they continue to grow? What do you hope that can happen regarding awareness of the environmental issues? And how can each of us impact global warming, food insecurity, and sustainable farming?
Frederic Laloux
I mean, our hope is that it reaches as many people because we just need everybody in this right, like, people who deal with, you know, deal with the food system, they need, you know, we need to reinvent the food system and move into regenerative agriculture, everybody who deals with energy, we need to onboard everybody. And so that's, that's basically all of us. And so our hope is that, you know, people will be so touched that they keep sharing it and, you know, keeps going viral. Because people just come out of it and feel like, hey, I'm at some place, I'm, you know,
Greg Voisen
how many people have seen it now proxy. So,
Frederic Laloux
you know, we've had 5000 People do the test version, and then we now just launched and we've had, we've just been 20,000 People who've registered.
Greg Voisen
Fantastic So, and it's going to continue to be a movement and grow, and I'm going to do my damnedest to help it do that.
Frederic Laloux
And then to a question about, like, what people do, what we found is really interesting. Some people, you know, they start with, basically from a blank page, they just say, like, hey, I have this job. And with this job, I can affect that. And that's what I will do. And they just come up with their own stuff. And other people tell us like, oh, just give us a list of things to do. And so, on the website of the week, after you've experienced that, you can just look at this list, and you can basically start crossing things off, sort of, by order of importance. And so you know, some people like to use lists other people, you know, start from a blank,
Greg Voisen
Well, I think you've taken a an issue, which could be daunting. And you've turned it into something very simple. And you've turned it into something where people don't, anyone, I'm saying, like, I don't want to be this to be rude, you don't have to think actually watching this documentary is more emotional based, it stirs inside of you at all, at a very heart level. Because of the way it's done, we understand at the fringes what's going on, we may not understand all the deep technical, scientific data or information, but we do understand the key ever. Yes. And you do that you and Helen do a marvelous job of that. And so in wrapping this up, if our listeners want to become involved in the movement, how can they do that? I know I've made a donation already, I'm gonna make more. And because you are a nonprofit, right? And you exist to serve this movement, and this cause. And so I guess the best way to get involved is to go to www the week done dot o Oh, yeah. Yep. And watch the introductory video with, you know, basically Frederic and Helen talking about it, it's very simple. And then go up there and set your group up, and then send out an email. And then you'll get access to Phil Vimeo. And you're going to have the access to these videos. And I've done this folks. And it is very simple, very simple. You set up a time in a day you send out an email, say we're going to meet on Thursday night at 7pm Be there be square. And so I think the process is really left up to you. But with Zoom, and with, if you've got zoom, you can make this happen.
Frederic Laloux
You can also do it in person, you know, gather people in your home, or you can
Greg Voisen
do this big screen. And so when I go into corporate America, which I haven't done yet, but I'm going to, I'm literally going to just open up the internet, open up their big screen, bring people into a conference room, and let them watch the video and then create a discussion afterwards. Look, this isn't about the money, folks, this is about us making the shift as a society. So everybody who's out there listening, as a consumer, as the way in which you eat and consume products, the way in which you move around with your cars, your trucks, and your SUVs, and all the other things, and it's for you to think about, you know, every time I do this, what can I do to be more aware and environmentally sensitive about what's actually going on? So would that be a good statement?
Frederic Laloux
It's a perfect statement. So I would just encourage you to get a group together, you know, maybe a small group at first and test Yes. And then often people after they've seen it, they feel like okay, now I want everybody in my organization to see it and then they go much bigger scale. One maybe last thing I want to say is we've so much equated the environmental movement with sacrifice, you know, like, in order to save the planet, you know, we'll have to do with less, that always feels like you talked about the environment. And it's like the end of the party, like, you're the party pooper. And, and, and with a week, we really taken the opposite approach. Because I fundamentally believe it, I believe that the next 1020 30 years are going to be an incredible human collective adventure, where we can turn systems that are really messed up a messed up food system, a messed up energy system, a messed up consumption system that doesn't make no one happy. And we can actually create much more beautiful systems, right regenerative agriculture, we can rewild large parts of the world, we can, you know, have much healthier streams and air and we can be much healthier, we can recreate deeper relationships and community instead of mindless consumption. And so, you know, that there, I think the reason this is going viral is that because at the end, people are really inspired to go like, I want to be part of that better world. So if you think that this is sort of a traditional environmental thing that will make you feel bad about yourself, that's not at all what it is, this is not shaming you, it's actually saying like, you know, there's maybe something much more beautiful out there. And let's, let's build that together.
Greg Voisen
Well, and you and your wife, Helen, have just been such great advocates, and you're very much bringing us into the living room. And we're bringing, you're bringing us into your living room, it's real life. And you know, I go back to the days, and I even tell my listeners about Lester Brown, who wrote Plan B four point out mobilization to save civilization. There's all these books, this is not about a doomsday I want to really important, Lee say this, we do have time to shift this and change it. And the only reason that Helen and Frederic are doing this is they realize we do obtain time. And they want their children to have as good or better of an existence on this planet, as we have had. And the reality is it doesn't look like that's the way it's going. Right. And that is trying when I was talking to my son, and I gave him your link to the website. And he's actually going to start one at Adobe. And he basically said, you know, I think about this every day, because he's got a five year old and a four year old. And I have grandchildren five and four. And I think if you don't do this for yourself, do it for the next generation. The reality is I think everybody will be impacted. Again, we're going to have all these links on repeat it one more time, go to that week, dot O, watch the introductory video, set up your group, have zoom available to at any night of the week. I don't care how many people show up. You're making an impact. I don't care if it's one, or it's five, or it's 10 It doesn't really matter. You just got to take the action and this is the action. So thank you for being on inside personal growth. Frederic and talking about the week. It's been a pleasure been an honor, actually.
Frederic Laloux
Thank you so much. Thank you so much. And thank you for you know, doing it and now bringing it out into your world.
Greg Voisen
Not a problem. We'll just keep doing it. That's the way things move. That's why it's called a movement. Whereas I just wear its whole movement. h o l o m mu, the whole movement. So thanks so much. Thanks.
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Inside Personal Growth with Greg Voisen · Podcast 1014: This or Something Better with Elisa Stancil LevineMy guest for today’s episode is author and decorative artist, Elisa Stancil Levine. She’s here to share her memoir released last June 2022 entitled This or Something Better: A Memoir of Resilience.
Elisa is also the founder of Stancil Studios – an award winning, nationwide decorative painting firm specializing in sensitive color work, subtle and dramatic patterning, gilding and glazing in San Francisco. They are dedicated to producing resonant, fine quality finishes.
Elisa had really studied Creative Writing but when she is not writing, traveling or consulting on color and pattern, she and her husband spend hours immersed in nature, running and riding horseback on Sonoma Mountain. With much passion, This or Something Better is already her second book and a third is in the works.
If you want to know more about Elisa, please click here to visit her website.
I hope you enjoy my engaging interview with Elisa Stancil Levine. Happy listening!
You may also refer to the transcripts below for the full transciption (not edited) of the interview.
Interview Transcipt -Not EditedEmailDownloadNew TabGreg Voisen
Well welcome back to Inside Personal Growth. This is Greg Voisen, the host of Inside Personal Growth. And today, we have Elisa Stancil Levine on and the book is This or Something Better, you can actually see it on her screen better than mine by just a little bug. And you're joining us from where this morning at least,
Elisa Stancil Levine
I'm outside of Sonoma in Sonoma County, actually a little town of Glen Ellyn on a mountain, looking at turkeys running through the fields outside my window. There, quiet out
Greg Voisen
here. Very beautiful place. You're in a very rural place. And this memoir, she and I were just speaking is a memoir of resilience. And that's the subtitle on hair this or something better? And it really is about how do we get to something better. And I'm gonna let the listeners know a little bit about you. And Lisa is spent her childhood in a canyon on the American River up street from the site of the California gold rush. She left school at 16 As a single mother in Sacramento I earned a degree in Library Science and studied creative writing. work with partners she remodeled 16 historic homes and was home and gardener editor and feature writer in the Sacramento magazine. At 36. She founded stem cell studios and award winning nationwide decorative finishes company in San Francisco. This memoir shares the story of making a maker and takes place in Northern California Manhattan in Paris. When Elisa is not writing, traveling or consulting on color and patterns, she and her husband Chuck spend hours immersed in nature running and riding horseback in Sonoma mountains. This or something they better is her second book or essays have received appeared in entropy magazines during a literary review, the penmen review and the writers workshop review. And she says her third book is in the works well. Third one is out can always be the best, it could be the best. I know lots of writers, it takes eight or 10 books for them to get to the best one. But you know, it's an inspiring personal memoir. It's also filled with these kind of I'm just gonna call them crazy yet harrowing stories in them. Tell us a little bit about what inspired you to share. So personal and um, front your story, you know, a memoir is always personal. And sometimes people don't want to tell that personal of the story. But you have done so why do you why were you inspired to do this?
Elisa Stancil Levine
Greg, really, from the time I was really little I realized, you know, I felt I had been born wise, you know, and I'm looking around with my panoramic vision. And thinking, hmm, this is not exactly some of these people don't seem to know what I seem to know. So it was really my very first memory that triggered that my desire to finally write about everything that I had collected visually, super visual. So this very first memory was when I felt totally embraced and recognized in nature. And that was really my very first memory. So this imprinting of nature bridge the all the gaps that seemed to be there or seem to bridge all the grounds that were in the my human interactions. So we you know, yeah, I was so happy. I thought I had solved my problem, you know, people not trustworthy nature all for me. Yeah. Done. And I progressed through my life, always intending to write about that, and how, you know, lucky that that made me under the circumstances, which we'll probably talk about a little bit. But in fact, when I went to write it, Okay, finally, I'm retired. Yay, everything's fine. I'm going to write in first 20 years of my life were traumatic, but they were distant by the time I'm writing, right? I'm like, 16 hours. 65. So, yeah. And the last 20 years, we're all great. So no problem. But what about the middle? Okay, that in between periods? What is it what they call the second act? I mean, in everybody's life, things come up, there's, you know, things get messy, okay. And it shows up in, let's say, Shakespeare's plays or anybody else's writing, you find out you know, what, what, actually,
Greg Voisen
What for you? It's certainly the hero's journey, right? You know, you go out and you've had these all these experiences. And you know, you have a picture on the front of this book, as you know, you can see the fire in the bottom. You can see the smoke and then you can see the clouds and I think that that is very symbolic of, of what I You're talking about and you start off the book with this, I'm going to call it harrowing experience. With this raging fire coming toward you, you say you get out of bed, you're completely naked, you're standing there in the window, and you see these flames coming over the hill. And you and Chuck are deciding to leave the ranch. And, you know, it Chuck says to you with a better sense, oh, why don't you be the one that guides this right. And while preparing to try and get your horses off the property, one of them needed to be sedated, but you couldn't find anything to sedate him with. Then you took these markers and you marked on tried to mark on the back of the horse is a phone number, the cell number I guess for check, but you couldn't do that because the markers were dry. You tell the story in your thoughts about leaving, and not warning others. Because this is a key point. It's the last statement in the chapter there that opening chapter. And why this was so important to you?
Elisa Stancil Levine
This has really been an interesting thing. All the people that have read the book have come to my readings and all that. But some of them feel really sympathetic and feel sorry for me and try to explain to me that I don't have to feel bad about I'm telling you, this was a signal to me a huge signal. Listen, you know, I'm not who I think I am. I think I'm this warm person with you know, lots of care. And I'm going to help people and do all these great things. But in fact, no, I zoomed away on my own without even looking to the left or the right, our little mountain road is one way out. And yes, everybody would be running and trying to save themselves. This is understood. But the fact that I didn't even think of it was assigned to me that there were things that have not been resolved from my early childhood. And, you know, this was, you know, I had had 70 or 73. Now, I have 20 years to resolve this I'm giving myself, I need to look deeply at how I, how I relate to others, and whether or not all this woo woo that I have in my life that is so loving, right? Is really being applied? Or if I'm still armored. And the question was, where did this armor come from? That causes me to have this defense. And did this did nature itself inspire me to learn how to melt my own armor through this fire? I mean, it's not like the fire was given to me through God because of and I needed to know this fire just was but what can I do with this fire? It's not any different than what can I do with a grandmother? That's so cruel? What can you know, what can I do with any of these things that seem almost impossible to realize? What
Greg Voisen
what do you think that that defense mechanism in other words, survival itself, obviously, maybe was tied up and many of the things from your prior life and you know, the book explores a number of these different themes and experiences, including one surrendering to kind of universal self-love healing. And you share this personal experience in the book. The story was particularly transformative for you. And you if you could speak about your grandmother. And she called you a murderer, which was because of your Catholic background, right? In other words, in other words, she was saying, hey, for her, it just seemed kind of odd to me that she would call a young girl a murderer. There had to have been something mentally challenging with her to do something like that. And then those crazy when you want to call them cleansing baths that, you know you had to take. I mean, you read this book, and you're kind of like, Are these people crazy?
Elisa Stancil Levine
So bizarre is in the community where she was living, which was another sort of mountain community 10 minutes or so away from my parents’ house. Who were you know, anyway, so grandma was this person, I really, I prefer to spend time at my grandmother's house. Question mark. Why would that be if she's going to be doing these things? Well, she didn't do these things all the time. And she was very definite and adamant and convincing about everything. Her perspective was very strong. And she part of her perspective as a seventh and as she had converted earlier in her life, and so somehow she's just had to accuse me the only one that she accused of being a murderer. I'm the only girl my mother was Catholic. So I married my grandmother I mean, my mother married my grandmother's son. And so this was both of her sons married Catholics, but I don't know what she did to anybody else. It was just me she just had, maybe because I was durable and kind of on the lookout, you know, she just wanted to somehow straighten me out. And, you know, blame me. And like I said, somehow, I knew whatever it was, she was, it was soothing to her. And it wasn't anything I could prevent. I mean, I just couldn't prevent it, she would do it. And I would go upstairs and dress, and then I would pretend like it never happened. And this, you know, I would say probably happened 20 times 30 times from the time I'm two and a half. And maybe she was aware that my grandfather, my step grandfather was sexually sexualizing. All of us little girls, maybe she was secretly aware and subconsciously aware of that. And was, I don't know, I mean, I could go all day on trying to analyze my grandmother.
Greg Voisen
Well actually talk about that, because, you know, I just recently had a woman on here. And it's called under the orange blossoms. And her defense was she and I'm not here to speak about her book. But I found it so compelling, because in the later years, she had to take care of her father. And her father was the molester. He was a pedophile. And he literally not only was molesting her, but he was letting molesting other kids in the neighborhood as well. And, but in the end, if you go to her website, she did interviews with her dad. And he was German. And he still had a strong accent. But he, during the interviews, he could not look at her. She would ask the questions in his eyes would shot and he would go into this banter about you know, she would ask him, why did it any said, because you were blossoming. Right. And it was what I say, you know,
Elisa Stancil Levine
because I was I was molested and a number of other little examples of times, and the thing is that I decided that I had the light of life. And this is why my grandfather was doing this. And he wanted to connect to the light of life, whether it was me or my other two grades.
Greg Voisen
That's the same thing. This guy kind of sad. Yeah.
Elisa Stancil Levine
So he's so I'm like, okay, but it's not my, you know, it's not my fault that I have a light of life. I already know. I'm blessed by God. I was just blessed. So yeah, I just have to keep moving. Right? This was my answer to the solution. You know, yeah. Not gonna make myself different. You know, I mean, well, from what
Greg Voisen
age what age did that actually happen? In her case, she was young. She was from five to 10 years old. He molested her?
Elisa Stancil Levine
Well, as it shows in, I think it's a third chapter or something. From the time I was about a year and a half, until I was started to really talk about almost three, I always the one that he would take to the woodshed that he would take to the garage, you know, we would go together. And it was always when grandma was at the church. Yeah. So there was other kids around, but they were just doing whatever, because kids used to be able to do whatever they wanted. They were out playing. And he and I was with Grandpa, I was special. Right? And so I had no idea. I knew that I felt comforted and safe when he would do this whole kind of Lingus thing with me. Right? But I was just a little child is described in there, sensitively. And I hope I'm not triggering anybody by talking about this so plainly. But I tried to write it, like I felt it at the time, which was just, oh, I'm special. And we're having all this time. And then we come out, and then everything's fine. And that's, and then when he stopped wanting to be with me, and started taking my little cousin, I felt totally abandoned. And I started thinking, okay, that's strange. You know that now they're okay. And he would just walk away. He was pretty desks, and he was always making his mumbly humming sound and stuff. And they would just be walking away to where we used to go. And like, oh, okay, that's done. And, you know, meanwhile, here's grandma with the scrubbing. And so yeah,
Greg Voisen
it's an interesting many of these pedophile column pedophiles, because it looks like your grandfather did the same thing that this man did. To her and other children. It was like more than one different children, some of them, many of them not related. In other words, kids in the neighborhood that he befriended and then, you know, did whatever he did You know, in your case, now your grandfather chooses somebody else you feel kind of rejected because you're so young, you don't really understand these things. But it made it certainly made an indelible imprint. Because while those memories aren't there, in in Cindy's case, she would start to have nightmares about it. Right? Nightmares could she could remember, and you speak about the role of self-discovery and self-exploration have played in your personal journey. If others that are listening right now, knowing that, you know, they've only listened to like, 15 minutes, so far, 20 minutes of this podcast. And here's this woman on the other end with his memoir. And already, we've talked about some pretty strange things that have happened to her. How would you help them deal with the difficult painful experiences the trauma of a loss? How would you tell them to find strength to persevere through these challenges? And then what would you expect, tell them to explore, to learn as a result of it?
Elisa Stancil Levine
I really do believe one of the most important things is tenderness that you would can extend to yourself, as you begin to explore or you know, realize, or even question your early life or other times in your life when you were not in control, and things did not go in a way that was healthy for you. Okay, so if you are grappling with this, and you're and there's anger, pain and resentment, of course, but that's a reaction, the thing, the very thing that is really so required is the tenderness you can extend to yourself, as you face these things, because this is the very thing that was missing. And that, you know, this is parenting yourself, loving yourself. And I'm not saying that this is an answer, it's but it makes it good, the pain different or go away. But it is a little kind of a North Star, better than the concern that people have sometimes if they're going to tumble into a black hole. And as
Greg Voisen
well, you explore forgiveness, and both for oneself and for others. I believe forgiveness is so important. Self-forgiveness is really important, because you didn't actually intentionally put yourself in that situation with your grandfather. So speak with us about that. Because, you know, you, we do see examples of it many times, you know, like, you know, it always kind of strikes me I'm in kind of all when somebody goes into court, and the family of somebody who murdered someone else in their own family says, Okay, we'll give you forgiveness because they know that if they carry around that grudge, the only person that's really hurting is themselves. But that's a very spiritual
Elisa Stancil Levine
thing, isn't it? Or sometimes it's it. I mean, sometimes you can, forgiveness can be sort of like counting coup, like, Haha, I'm better than you, I have forgiven you. I'm not saying that. That's not forgiveness. But there is some process in my experience of having to come to terms with certain things that happened. And then wait. And certainly with my grandmother, no, say my grandfather killed himself. Okay. So there's that. And my grandmother, and this is a step grandfather. So this step grandfather, she married when he was like 65. So he's gone, he's out of the picture. It's fine. And then my grandmother, the reason he killed himself is that my grandmother had a stroke, and she wasn't anything like she was before. She had no confidence. She was totally, you know, heartbroken to be so unable. And she was paralyzed on one side, and she ended up living for 20 plus years in a convalescent home, or not with her children, you know, and this is a long arc that happens in life sometimes. And all I knew was that, you know, she would have value that I would come and visit and why would take her out, we would go to a Chinese restaurant and you know, with a wheelchair and my son who was 12 at the time, you know, and I would give her a massage or a hand that was, you know, paralyzed and give her a manicure and you know, like that. So, there's no reason not to do that, in my opinion, even out it pretty fresh after leaving home. There was every reason to do it, because I could then say, Look, I am not a murderer, right? I didn't have to say it. And it probably was about 15 years into her arc of being paralyzed. And I brought her down to my house here in Sonoma. And we, we know, had a three or four day thing, anyway, in that moment, and finally she said, you know, the world lost, the world lost a good nurse when you became an artist. Now, this phrase is a little sentence to me meant, I know, you're not a murderer. I know, you, you know, I also credit you for being an artist, and I thank you for being so loving to me, is what I took from that. You know, and that's just how I try to work it out. So in terms of how people can find a space for forgiveness, for others, I think it is an it's a process, it's not an instant idea that this will be good, or this will make it less painful.
Greg Voisen
Yeah, you, in this case with your grandmother, obviously, after stroke, you were doing some caring for her. And in the process, the exploration, she was saying things, which I would say probably made a lot more sense than when she was talking to you saying you were a murderer, right? Which I would think that that would leave a pretty indelible implant. And, you know, the book discusses vulnerability and authenticity and relationships. How have you cultivated these qualities in your own life? And, you know, I know Brene Brown is speaks a tremendous amount about vulnerability. And I think what she has to say about it is so important, whether you're in your personal life, or your business life, you know, because we have a lot of business people that listen to the show as well. And you're a businesswoman, you're very astute businesswoman. And you work with some very high end clients. Right? And I think, one having the vulnerability at apt to actually say, or admit you're wrong when you're wrong. That you that you, oh, I see your viewpoint. You know, I see your side of this is really important. And what has it done to help you that and authenticity, and helping you with relationships, both in your personal life, and obviously doing what you do in the art world as well.
Elisa Stancil Levine
I have to say, one thing that I confess is that I have very, I've studied a bunch of different ideas about vulnerability and about authenticity, and intimacy, this idea of intimacy, and with my personal relationship, I mean, I finally told my husband, who's my fourth husband, okay. And I was divorced three times, by the time I was 27. So obviously, I wasn't really doing
Greg Voisen
Well, you started young.
Elisa Stancil Levine
And each relationship got better. So yeah, I can point it out. Here. You know, here, I, we had started dating and I was just trying to lecture him, you know, kindly help him with ideas about intimacy. And finally, I mean, I guess it was, like, 15 years later, I said, you know, I don't know shit about intimacy. I really don't. You know, I know what it's supposed to look like, I know what it sounds like, I know how to make it. You know, cobble it together for a minute. That doesn't mean that I know anything about it. And this was the thing is beginning to understand that it's okay to not know. And it's okay to share. That unknowing is part of what really came from my writing career when I was trying to do articles about things I knew nothing about I was assigned them. And we get all anxious and upset, because I didn't know everything. Well guess what if, of course, I don't know everything. And the same thing with collaborative work within decorating, and working with the client and the decorator, the architect and the builder, this collaborative experience, you're not expected to know everything, but there are things that we can feel intuitively. Yeah. And that's the key. Yeah, yeah. And bring to the party that you know, has value. And it's the same thing for these others. So it's more, the collaboration really helped me a lot. But when it's just one on one, I mean, just sometimes just get really confounded. And I don't know if that's still just old stuff. I mean, believe me, I had therapy and still have a wonderful therapist I can check in with, which I do. You know, and there's a lot that we all can do to help ourselves. But in fact, one of the things that was a little bit of a problem for me is wanting to be right and being okay and being fine and being strong. And that's part of that armor. And it's not part of vulnerability,
Greg Voisen
right? Do you think that in that process of, even though you were very young, what your grandfather did to you, no matter what those memories might have been that, you know, you look at for marriages, you look at intimate relationships, did that really affect your intimacy? Because, you know, I, I'm relating now to Cindy. And you know, and I'll say this again, because this interview was just so recent. You know, it's like, when all the other girls told her, you know, a guy's foot size or hand size was good, you know, she even writes very openly about it. Right? It was like, and, and her having intimate relations with young men, kind of the first time after this thing with her father, right? Do you believe that those old wounds that you carried, that you maybe didn't even realize, because you supplanted them into the subconscious really affected your ability with intimacy and relationships?
Elisa Stancil Levine
Definitely, definitely. I was again, like, from the, I think in the second chapter, I just say, by the time I was three, I was on the lookout for who and what I could trust, sunflowers, raspberries, my cousin Debbie, better, you know, good stuff. And so when with these men, and of course, many people who have been women, I'd say that maybe perhaps also men who've been sexualized at a young age. They are very promiscuous, without any thought of it being promiscuous. It's just like, well, what the hell, you know? And so here I was, and it was the beginning of, you know, no broad, you know, free love. So what am I going to do? I'm just out and about, and like, I've told people, we would I would go have coffee, I would have sex with someone to find out if I wanted to have coffee with them the other way around. Whatever. But this was totally there was no, there was no deep connection, right at all. And it was also not, what do you call it? Productive of sexual fulfillment? Either. It was just an action. Okay. I called it there in the book, counting KU and Ka, U, U, U, whatever. And I wouldn't be walking down the it. College and think, oh, that person looks from I wonder and I can tell they were thinking, I wonder if I had sex with her. I'm thinking I wonder if I already had sex with me. It's just like a lot of sex going on?
Greg Voisen
Yeah, you recount that in the book. Yeah. Yeah.
Elisa Stancil Levine
So this was not the way to get close.
Greg Voisen
So you said this, or something better, maybe it was something better.
Elisa Stancil Levine
Was this for something better finally came when I met my fourth husband, I mean, we dated for 20 years before we got married. Wow, on the opposite coast. So it took, you know, there was a lot to bring us together. And it he's it just I just love him so much. And he's so consistent. And he's so accepting. I mean, it's amazing. So, you know, I just really feel so blessed to have found him. And I did an affirmation and wrote a look at my list, you know, from Shakti Gwaine. And, you know, creative visualization. And from, you can heal your life. Remember the list in a present tense, the man I choose to love is, you know, I just read this every day for like, I don't know, I think it was maybe a month? Well, you, you know,
Greg Voisen
you've been through so much change and uncertainty. I mean, you know, really, when you read this memoir, and you look at, you know, the crazy baths and your grandmother being Seven Day Adventists and calling you a murderer, and you having all these sexual relationships and the fires that you've had, and in this, the things that you've dealt with is it's truly a very full life. But if you're going to talk to the listeners, about the importance of embracing change and uncertainty, share one of the personal experiences or a story that illustrates how you kind of navigated, so we're talking about you navigating, change, and how others may want to look at uncertainty or change, because, you know, most people resist it. They go, I don't want I don't want to change. You know, I mean, a perfect example of that is when you talk to people today about you know just what happened the corner ation with Charles. You know, like, That's old school, right? Put on a crown now and it's so old school, right? And you talk to people today and they'll say, well, I don't even know why we're doing that anymore. Yet it hasn't changed in hundreds of years, you know, they're still playing the same old stupid stuff, right? Pardon me, for all the people that are British that still believe in that that's my own personal commentary. Yeah. How would you tell somebody to embrace change, embrace uncertainty? And actually learn and what story? Would you like to relate with that? Because you've got so many in the book?
Elisa Stancil Levine
I actually, you've sent me some great questions. And I did write something about that, that I could actually read, it would probably be more efficient to tell you answer this question by reading it, if you don't mind. Sure. Okay, so early questioning about the power of adults. And the importance I should place on their dictates helped me escape my family. But it did not guarantee that I would thrive and bloom, but rather simply remove myself from one dynamic to find myself lodged in another. Yet any setback up until the death of my fiancée, I believe myself strong enough to overcome, even including the death of my baby. But then I collapsed like a cheap umbrella. I swear, after that was just too much. That was it. I bet you there's everybody that has had to be greedy, and all that has things that just were just too much. therapy was helpful. And I've had a longtime connection with an amazing behavioral therapist. But my own anger was key. If it mounted to a boiling point, a boiling point, I would realize I needed to make a change. So like in a marriage of something, I would just say, Is this good enough? Is this really what I'm supposed to be doing here? Am I being my best self here? No. Okay, I'm out. Okay, out. Oh, UT out. Okay, so I tend not to blame others, but rather and then my own reality, I find that more efficient and effective. But that doesn't, that's still keeping the same behavior. I'm like, the king's robes, right, I'm still doing the same, same, same thing. I think it looks different, because it's a different setting. So this whole idea that whatever worked before, is really working is a little suspect. And fit. One of the things that is true for me is I just like figuring stuff out, I just like it. I like wandering. So I may be wondering about something 10 years ago, and not applying it today. But however, we're progressing through all this, whether it's the COVID crisis, or anything else, I take things that I used to use or do and try to apply them to the new difficulty, you know,
Greg Voisen
and I think, you know, speaking with a doctor the other day that ended up and this is, this is relatable to what you're talking about, know, he went to India, and all the mushrooms and seeking enlightenment. So this is a true story. He goes there first time, and looks for all these gurus who have enlightenment, goes the second time, goes a third time, finally finds a guru. And he says, you know, I don't really see where there's so many of these people who are just enlightened. And the guy says, what is your definition of enlightenment? And he says, what's supposed to be somebody that's calm and peaceful all the time, and blissful and whatever? And he goes, well, I think you have your definition wrong. Right? He said, enlightenment is really unconditional self-acceptance. And with that, he came back from India. And he realized that it is unconditional self-acceptance, is what actually in his world now creates enlightenment. What would you say about unconditional self-acceptance?
Elisa Stancil Levine
That's something I probably try to practice every day is like a constant like little. I mean, I'm just like picking up the tab of the edge of it so often, and I, you know, and then the times when I feel the most rich truly, in that place, if I'm out running on the mountain, is when I'm, I'm not there. I know, I'm no longer this entity I am. Since of life, you know, and when you have this, you know, this beautiful experience of the essence of life and you are one with it, then this is just heavenly. Anytime there's, you know, the monkey mind, there's all these other things that come into play, or just whatever you promised to do that day that
Greg Voisen
The ego is so strong that you know it wants to say to you Is it Lisa, I can't accept you for what this is. You know, you're not you're not good enough. Right? Right. So when you say unconditional self-acceptance, that's like no matter what happens wherever it happens, however it happens. Whatever memory you're taking from it, we're putting a judgment on it as to whether or not it's good or bad. It seems and that and that is the meme. That is the meme that saying, hey, I call that bad. I call that good. Like with your grandfather, most people say, well, there's, there's a stigma, your grandfather molested you. Now, if you really want to take it to the complete opposite side, maybe that experience was supposed to be for unconditional self-acceptance. And that's what gives you the ability to get out of the pain. You know, I don't know how I look, I've done this show now for 16 years, and I've had all kinds of fascinating people like you on and we get into these deep conversations. But let's talk about this idea of spiritual connection and faith. Because it is this part like, whether Catholicism was the big deal, or Seventh Day Adventist was the big deal, or Judaism was the was whatever it is, that to me is religion. That's not spirituality. Can you speak to us about the role that these have played, the spiritual connection in your faith and your personal journey and how people listening on the other end of this right now can learn about how being having more faith and having a connection to a higher Spieler and getting in touch with their intuition can really transform their lives?
Elisa Stancil Levine
Well, that's a big question, Greg. But I can tell you that if I look at the whole progression of my experience with religion, Catholicism taught me how to edit a religion. There's a lot of things that it yeah, very little. And I'm like, that can't be true. Even Mary couldn't even save her son. And she's standing there looking all glorious, and he's hanging on across. I mean, and okay, he's only hanging on this cross for supposedly 32 hours, and then all of us are supposed to look at that all day, every day and feel bad. No, I'm not doing it. Okay, so then, you know, Seventh Day Adventist, okay, that they had some great ideas, a book called happiness, homemade. It was all about how you're going to, you know, it was really beautifully inculcating the idea of the nurturance of a woman into the whole home life. Okay. And this was my grandmother's thing. I agreed with the book. But you know, how she took it was not what I thought was right. Okay. Judaism later, okay, now I'm ready to really look and hear is a bunch of children at my husband's family at a table. And whenever they ever start to speak, everybody's quiet, like, oh, wait, he's speaking. Yeah, he's a whole person over there is four year old, right? Yeah, let's listen. And then on top of that, editing, anything that I thought was really just not really what I wanted. And then finally, just realizing that the reason I was really attracted to Judaism was because they have this whole thing called ethical values. And basing the religion supposedly bedrock on these ethical values, was I use it as a key to pattern design and all kinds of other things, an organizing principle, for my, for a lot of my work with other people simply doing that. So yes, and a lot of the newer parts of Judaism, I just, I just really don't care about, but I'm gonna edit it to what I care about, which kind of pretty primitive. And I think that's probably the fact is that I'm more primitive than I am. Anything else, so
Greg Voisen
that but I think the basic principles of many faiths, of many, whether it's Catholicism, Judaism, Muslims, whatever, you know, they're all leading toward the same thing. And that's a connection with a higher spirit. In essence, you get there's a lot of things but Judaism because, you know, that's my background. My mother was Jewish. So I'm Jewish. And there are fundamental principles, as you're talking about, which are really, really core rooted things that I think if our whole society actually believed in and worked on, we might have a more just and meaningful America. How's that? You know, as I'm speaking with clients that are all the way across the world rolled in, we talked about, you know, things like shootings and you know, stuff like that. And we talked about homeless, they go, hey, we don't have one home homeless person in Amsterdam, if they are, they're in being taken care of. And in the nine years that this friend of mines lived there, he hasn't known of any one person that had been killed back on. Right. So you know, you look at the fundamentals of, of how those fundamentals you're talking about, could be the basis, the underpinning basis of, of a society and a culture that could operate more justly and I would call sanely. Then I would say you're right now, you share your personal experiences or stories. Many of them in this book, there are what's weaved throughout the whole book in this memoir. What do you hope that the reader who picks up your memoir, and you basically, we're going to put a link to her website as well. And I will tell all my listeners, that it's E, L ISASTANCIL. Out e v i, n a.com. Go to there, and you're going to learn more, you can read our blog, as well. What do you want people to take away from this?
Elisa Stancil Levine
I think it was just trying to share the humor and the interesting perspective that you get over such a long period of time, that ends up tying many of the things that seem totally unrelated together, and that you as you make your way through this life, you know, it's st is there's all these little keys that you pick up as you go almost like an Alice in Wonderland type of story, where you are becoming more and more and more aware, or more and more able to cope, simply because of these innocent tiny ease that you have absorbed, you know, observed and brought with you and find a place for. And it just, it's a it's a process. It's not, you know, you're not doomed, made or made or broken or, or blessed by any one thing. You really, you know, we're just in process.
Greg Voisen
Well, I like your quote on your blog, and it says, this is this. And maybe we kind of sum it up like this, all that has been all that will be is held in the essence of each moment, then and now, dark and light. These contrasts shape how we see. Only by looking deeper, can we discover the ever present suchness of life, these writings are my greeting to you, and the light within you. And I actually think that that's a really good, I mean, that's very deep. It's very philosophical. But at the same point, when you take that little statement, and you break it down the part about Then and Now dark and light, these contrast shapes how we see, only by looking deeper can discover the ever present suchness of life, I think meant as it's always said, the darkness serves the light. Right? You can't have the light without the darkness. Right. And those are the polarities that we have in life. I mean, as an artist, you I just saw something the other day around kindness, and the guy was sketching on the street. And he says, you know, most artists, when they give them a canvas or a piece of paper, that a lot of time they're frightened by it, because it's like confines, it's like this square thing that I've got to do something in to make it but yet when they went out on the street, and they took chalk, and they started doing chalk and, and images and creating out of pieces of gum that were actually on the street and going around it, they were able to create this such this this beauty right? And it was seeing in something that somebody else would step on, or step over the beauty in that or the eyeball. You know, he took two pieces of gum and the GM actually created eyeballs in the piece of the artwork, and I thought that was pretty cool.
Elisa Stancil Levine
And probably to him, like just sitting there looking at him. He knew that that's what he would do. It's like it's these things just tell you what to do. This intuition aspect. I'm sorry, I can't really help people understand it any more than just to try to listen, I mean, you can see I mean, there'll be I don't know a little flower that's just saying hello, hello. Hello. Hello, are you walk out and you know a dog comes up and running to you. And it smells totally of rosemary, because it's been rolling around in this rosemary, and you're thinking, I don't even know I had rosemary, What a lucky thing. I mean, there's just so many things that are beyond. You can be on planning. And that's why planning to be intuitive or something is like, I don't know, no,
Greg Voisen
no, you can't do that. You can't plan to be intuitive. But you can plan to be this or something better. So I would highly recommend people go to Amazon and pick up a copy, we'll have a link there. Go to her website.
Elisa Stancil Levine
There are blog posts, the first chapter on my website, and it's cute, because it shows it pages turn you can hear the pages turning as you're reading it, you know,
Greg Voisen
yeah. But I think, you know, if you're looking to get a kind of a unique perspective, about how to view the world, Elise's book is something that will do that for you. Granted, she used her stories and trials and tribulations to actually guide you and direct you direct to there to get you there. But at the heart of it, it's a way for you to shift your perspective. And for you to be more accepting and more kind to yourself. And for you to be more understanding of others and for you to see the world in a new light. And I appreciate you for bringing not only your story to us, but also your memoir and all the stories that you tell throughout this book, to help the readers understand that. And this is this. Anything, any parting words?
Elisa Stancil Levine
I just want to thank you so much, Greg, I really love this and I love hearing that read out loud about the blog quote, it is true. I mean, I really am joyful to be on the planet. And I love to share my the things that I learned and see and I welcome anybody to check out what is on my website would make me really happy.
Greg Voisen
Oh, it's awesome. It's a koi pond when you get there people there's a koi pond there. And underneath it is the little princess by Antoinette de Saint. How do you say your last name ex spray?
Elisa Stancil Levine
It's Antoine de Saint esprit.
Greg Voisen
I don't know who it is, but it's a great quote. No read The Little Prince. No, it does say it is only with the heart that one can see rightly. What is essential is invisible to the eye. That kind of sums up what we're talking about here. It's great. Thanks so much at least appreciate you being on inside personal growth. And speaking with our listeners today about your new book called this or something better A Memoir of resilience. Definitely resilient woman folks. Thanks Namaste
Elisa Stancil Levine
Namaste.
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Inside Personal Growth with Greg Voisen · Podcast 1013: KAIBAE with Dr. Luc MaesJoining me this episode is one of the founders of KAIBAE, Dr. Luc Maes. He is also the Director of the Maes Center for Natural Health Care clinical practice.
Dr. Luc has 26 years of experience in Naturopathic Medicine and the natural products industry and has an abiding interest and keen insight into understanding health and skincare, real consumer needs, and the best practices in product development. He founded KAIBAE realizing that a harvest for this nutrient-rich yet undervalued wild crop provided an opportunity to preserve biodiversity and promote local economic development in Northern Ghana.
KAIBAE is a B-Corp, supplying the food, beverage, cosmetic, and supplement industry and its mission is to give wild plants a voice as powerful catalysts for improving health and beauty, advancing social good, and preserving biodiversity. One of their best products is Baobab Fruit Powder which is a powerful superfood, organic, rich in prebiotic fiber, vitamin C, polyphenols and minerals including calcium, magnesium and potassium, important for a healthy gut, radiant skin, and a strong immune system and tastes sweet and tangy.
If you want to know more about Dr. Luc and KAIBAE, you can click here to visit their website. You may shop their products as well by clicking here.
I hope you enjoy my engaging interview with Dr. Luc Maes. Happy listening!
You may also refer to the transcripts below for the full transciption (not edited) of the interview.
Interview Transcipt -Not EditedEmailDownloadNew TabGreg Voisen
Well, welcome back to Inside Personal Growth. This is Greg Voisen, host of Inside Personal Growth. And Luc for all my listeners who've literally known me for years and years, they know that I go to the natural products West Expo almost every year. And there I find new and interesting people. And importantly along with those people new and interesting products, and you happen to be one of them, Lisa May, who is a friend of mine, actually made the recommendation to speak with Luc Maes. And it's Dr. Luc Maes. And it's the Maes Center for Natural Healthcare. And they're located in Santa Barbara. And you can get there at gokaibae.com, that's where you're gonna find more information about them. Well look, good day to you. It looks like a beautiful day in Santa Barbara. Always got this.
Dr. Luc Maes
Thank you for having me on your podcast.
Greg Voisen
Oh, you're quite welcome. And this story is one that I want our listeners to understand and learn more about. Also, they do have a book out and we will show our listeners this cooking. And it's with bad
Dr. Luc Maes
Baobab
Greg Voisen
Baobab cooking with Baba. And this is the last crop we're going to be talking about. But I'm gonna let the listeners know a little bit about you, Luc. With 30 years of experience in plant based medicine and natural products industry and director of the Mays center for natural healthcare practice. Luc has an abiding interest in keen insight understanding health and skincare, and real consumer needs and best practice, practices and product development. His private research includes a study of medicinal plants through Africa, Central and South America. His public interest feels a desire to take what he learns and to share it with global view towards solutions for people and the planet. And his partner in this two partners, one, his wife, Barbara, she's the curator, and Tom Cole. He's the botanist and humanitarian that makes up this organization. Well, welcome, welcome to Inside personal growth. And it's really a pleasure having you on and I've actually been taking the powder and notice the difference already in the gut health. So I'm going to be an advocate for this. But the show isn't about selling anything. It's about educating people. So what we want to do is educate you first. So you tell the listeners a little bit about your background. You know, as a doctor, how you became interested in natural health care is a natural path.
Dr. Luc Maes
Well, I studied naturopathic medicine, and been practicing Santa Barbara for the past 30 years. Integrating Functional Medicine and Classical Homeopathy. I've been fortunate to study with some of the foremost leaders in these fields. But in addition, I've also been very passionate about plants and what plants can do for our health. And in addition to seeing patients. I've done extensive research on plant medicine and hadn't been fortunate to travel the globe and learn from traditional healers as to their uses of the plants that grow around them. And about 12 years ago, I became for some reason this three the baobab tree or bail Bob tree that grows in the African savanna called my name, not to be too esoteric, but I was drawn to connect with this tree as a naturopath. As you know, gut health is at the core of our practice, and the gut and our research is increasingly showing that the gods is truly at the core of many of our health care needs. I became totally intrigued by the benefits of the fruit powder of this amazing tree. You mentioned last crop, the baobab tree is considered a lost crop undervalued for its incredible health benefits. The powder benefits the Gup. Its prebiotic and also benefits blood sugar. So my initial intent was to purely learn about the nutritional the biochemical benefits of the fruit. But as my research went deeper and deeper, I became I realized that this harvesting this fruit would potentially make a huge impact not only for our In the environment of the tree, but also for the people that live around the tree. So it took my practice of naturopathic medicine to a much deeper, broader, comprehensive way of looking at things, and opened up a world where I could benefit health but also protect our planet.
Greg Voisen
Well, you certainly did that you and Tom and Barbara. And this bay ABAB is really just such an interesting fruit. And you also involve the people in it. And you then formed K bay by saying it right again,
Dr. Luc Maes
it's kind of another hard word. But you
Greg Voisen
and you and your wife and Tom, who I mentioned just a second ago, is the botanist and humanitarian. Tell me a little bit about Tom and his role in this overall formation in the organization. Because, you know, he was very important as a botanist to you. And obviously, he's humanitarian, because you formed this B Corp. And then you created this miniseries documentary that will direct our listeners to saw the last crop. And you know, you tell in that, in that thing about the last crop. And I want to really be clear here, the sustainable and socially responsible venture that you took on in Ghana and Columbia and Zanzibar to actually harvest the fruit put the people to work. This is a big part of the story, and provide them with a livable wage and a business. So tell us a little bit about the story and how you and Tom came together.
Dr. Luc Maes
So when I was drawn to travel to Africa, I had no relationships. There were connections there. And I had to find a way to meet somebody who knew about working in Africa and happened through Google of all things to connect with Tom Cole, an incredible individual here that lives in Montecito only 10 minutes away from my home. But we connected through Google, I wanted to find somebody who knew about Africa. And Tom Cole is a migratory ecologist. He is experienced humanitarian works in post conflict regions throughout Africa. Ensuring of projects through permit gardens permaculture to promote food security in these regions. And I was lucky to connect with him and his passion for trees for aloes, and the baobab tree of all trees. He knew it very well. We connected and traveled to Northern Ghana, about in 2012 met with elders and through his expertise, were able to develop solid relationships with local communities. His expertise and community development came is a very valuable asset for Kobe. We've been since through his experience and my background in the medical uses of Baobab have been able to create a supply chain that benefits the communities in Northern Ghana as supply chain that wasn't there before have been able to establish a processing center that now makes a an impact on about 1000 community members and 85% women handle the fruits and processing equal pay. So for us, KB KB means hello, how are you by the way Shalom Basu in Kusa, which is the language of local communities. For the first time we drove up in the northern region. The ladies were all lined up and cheering me on Kobe, Kobe was very enthusiastic energy and on my way back as like, I need to call my company KB because it was such a powerful energetic while you still gives me the chills, greeting that will leave me connected to that first, forever to that first day. And so yes, Kobe means hello, how are you? Are you well, and bow Bob is actually called the African tree of life. It's served a very important purpose to communities throughout centuries, not only as a plate for shade, place for shade, but a place to gather a place for food. And it's gutting sort of lost in its appreciation. Because of the delusion that access to plastic packaged foods are a step up in the world. It's an incredible ingredients that we all need to integrate more back into our lives. Yeah,
Greg Voisen
well, you've done a lot of work around this and I use you were telling the years and years you've been working on So and, you know, you also had some challenges you faced along the way you did share those with me to get this not only to a B Corp, because people understand that a b is a betterment Corporation. And when you start the new ventures, how were you able to overcome them? And obviously found Tom helped you work in Africa? And he was a big part of that? I mean, there's no way you could have done it without him. You got to have somebody to navigate the terrain while you're there. But what challenges did you face? And how did you actually overcome some of those challenges? To get where you are today? I mean, you're importing a product, you're, you're processing it in a plant here. I think you have a co packing plant near you there in Los Angeles, you say that? grinds it into the powder. So there's a lot to this. It's not this, you know, what people think it is? There's a lot to it.
Dr. Luc Maes
It was hard to call it, I will say very idealistic in the beginning. And, and we've learned along the way, and we're able to find people with specific expertise to help us along the way. So initially, we had to figure out, can we truly sustainably harvest this tree without stressing the environment in the communities. So we had people in the agroforestry region, I mean, the expertise field in Ghana help us out. And then we had to develop a quality product. So we roughly process the ingredients in Ghana. But then the final processing is done here in the US, where it's milled and processed and tested to ensure we have a quality ingredient for the food and beverage industry and the cosmetic industry. But yes, every step of the way from ensuring that we're that we're supporting the communities and the environment the way we want to, and all the way here to providing high quality ingredients with the proper certifications. So the trees are harvested according to guidelines by equal cert in Ghana and processed according to USDA Organic guidelines. And we're a B Corp. Yeah, a B Corp took me several years to achieve that third party certification. But for me, it was a stamp verifying that what we're saying about supporting the ingredient, as environmental wise and social good wise, that we are truly adhering to our promise that the consumer is going to participate in it with a company that truly high court has true values. And truly is committed to not only providing quality ingredients but also protect our environment. There I as a as a naturopath and as somebody who loves nature. There's an interconnectedness that we have to preserve reestablish for our health and for the planet.
Greg Voisen
Well, I think what you've done really well Luc is it's, it's like a tapestry. You know, when we create a tapestry in life, we look at all the interconnections. And when you've gone to the lengths, you have to harvest the valve of fruit, and then have your company make these products, these various products, which we'll talk about free grad health and your skin health and all this, that again, make you can just go to G O K KIB a.com. That's where you're going to find a sorry, sorry. I'm gonna link A E. Okay. So I think that brings us down to this fundamental personal philosophy when it comes to health and wellness, right, and as a naturopath, there's the allopathic doctors, I just had an allopathic doctor on but you see many of the allopathic kind of approaches now, going different directions, functional medicine, doctors, they're moving different directions, because they believe in the natural way to arrive at health and wellness. That's not to say that drugs and medications should be thrown out the window. It's to say that what we do you want to live your life and what can you do so you've got a philosophy, I'm sure. And the bail bonds is this powerful superfood? And actually it's an ingredient that you're now selling, you got FDA approval, people can you know, eat Of course it's a natural sunlight. I don't think you really needed FDA approval, right? Because it isn't right it's
Dr. Luc Maes
grass certified meaning it's record generally recommended us safe.
Greg Voisen
Yeah. So speak with us because I think what our listeners want to know as much about your venture to actually get this to the marketplace today, but also how as a naturopath you're using these products and to what kind of successes have you seen from people.
Dr. Luc Maes
I mean, as an I mean, as a naturopath, I feel like we've lost his connectedness is interconnectedness with our natural environment. And that is I think at the root of many of our ailments. Today, we look at the rising metabolic syndrome, diabetes, cardiovascular disease, we're learning that our internal environments, our internal mill us, I look at the body as an environment when it's out of balance that's expressed on our mental, emotional, physical levels. So our internal environment very much parallels the outside environment. And what we're learning is that we're losing diversity, biodiversity around us. But we're also losing diversity within us. The gut microbiome as we may get into a bit more in their talk, we're learning that these bacteria that live in the gutter were neglected for a long time. And now research is showing that gut health and the prebiotic fiber that Baobab provides encourages the flourishing the growth of these bacteria that are vital to our immune health. You know, we all think all bacteria are harmful or paint our cause disease, but actually, we live in harmony with many organisms around us, and as a naturopath. But also, as science is showing our modern lifestyle is disconnecting us from the nurturing benefits of the natural environment. So KB is all about bringing nature back reconnecting us with the nature's benefits, we call it rewilding the gut microbiome, because it's pulling us back towards nature. So yeah, as a naturopath, I look at a very, I look at it as a very in a very comprehensive way. And how can we, in the best way, maintain the health of ourselves, but also our environment?
Greg Voisen
So given that, and I totally agree that they're interconnected, and that we've lost that connection to it, like you said earlier? You know, what? Packaged plastic products that people eat? Right? And I think that's good. And in some areas, it's easy to get. There's, there's, you know, lots of fresh food markets, there's natural products, their inner cities, maybe not as much, you know, people stopped relying go to the grocery store, but they should be buying more of the stuff in the vegetable aisles, but maybe not. And in this case, so if somebody is on a probiotic right now, a pill probiotic with balpa actually be a substitute for some kind of probiotic because you were speaking about the gut health? Well, obviously, they're both for the gut health,
Dr. Luc Maes
but not necessarily. So what we're learning is that the American diet is low in fiber, rich and sugar and high in inflammatory fats. And the American diet, our modern lifestyle with pollution around us, is driving us into these metabolic disorder direction. And what we need to look at this one, we look at our diet first, because you need a diet that drives us in the other direction in a healthful direction. A diet rich in fiber Abobe up offers is in addition to a diet that's more rich in plants and vegetables, and actually, you know, maybe some people can grow up themselves in their backyard because we need to eat more plants. And Baobab is a constant super concentrated source of prebiotic fiber and poly phenols. So what we're learning is that these prebiotic fibers, these poly phenols, and these probiotics, so probiotics are the healthy organisms. prebiotics is the fiber that feeds the probiotics. So one improve, move towards a plant based diet and add foods rich in prebiotic fibers such as Baobab as an example. And if you're not familiar with polyphenols, Polyphenols are what plants concentrates in order to survive in their environment. So you may have heard of polyphenols from wine or that why need the chocolate, but plants,
Greg Voisen
Resveratrol right
Dr. Luc Maes
but resveratrol. Well cool. We have theobromine. So when you concentrate these polyphenols these plants in the wild like for example Baobab grows in the savanna, one of the harshest environments in the world. So it's very rich and phenols so the prebiotic fiber the polyphenols and the probiotics work in synergy to help the body produce these metabolites that cross into the bloodstream that are anti-inflammatory in their benefit, benefits the heart, the brain, the nervous system, benefits the guts, local gut, digestive health, and benefits the skin from within. So we're learning that polyphenols and prebiotic fiber are truly essential to good health.
Greg Voisen
Well, and I think for the average person listening to this podcast, while they may not understand all that, there's so many resources they can go to, they obviously can go to your websites, which we're going to have a link to. They can Google any of this to find it out. But you have a center, the Natural Health Center in Santa Barbara there that offers a variety of naturopathic services, you know, if they go check out the website, they can see that if I'm listening out there, and I want to speak with somebody like you, you're a doctor, and I want to do a visit, what's the first thing they can expect? And how do you integrate natural remedies and treatments into this because someone comes to you and says, hey, look, I'm six medicines, I got these problems. I've gone to the regular MD, or I've gone to my cardiologist or have gone whatever, what kind of expectation because I, I don't believe there's a fear about going to a naturopath. I think there's a misunderstanding of what a naturopath can actually supplement and can do. And I want to I want to break that myth around maybe what it is
Dr. Luc Maes
so naturopathic doctors are doctors that are trained as family practitioners, there's licensed naturopathic doctors are licensed as family doctors. But when you visit a doctor such as myself, I look at the whole picture I tried to understand who are you? And how is your health concern limiting you in your life. So when you sit in my office, the way I work is I listen for sometimes an hour and a half, sometimes longer until I truly understand the mental emotional and physical limitations that are that emerge with a specific health concern. As a Classical Homeopathy, which is a doctor that uses minut dilutions of plants and minerals that serve as a spark to help the body's own ability to re reorganize. I, my goal is to truly understand my patient as a whole. And I tend to as part of that, let's say we live in it, let's say let's say we live in a very stressful lifestyle. Well, who doesn't win, we live in a state of anxiety or sleeplessness or greater depression, that states trickles into our chemistry and our cells start to talk a different language. So whereas we may go to a therapist or a psychiatrist, for example, where allopathic medications are prescribed to alleviate depression or anxiety, while those medications sometimes have their place, by understanding a person on a deeper level, and can really help him along further before they have to resort to medications. So
Greg Voisen
it's a whole mind body spirit approach. Right? And I think when people sometimes people hear the word spirit, they don't understand they know mind body, right? But it isn't spiritual. It isn't. Religious, its spirit is what you believe it's your philosophy. It's what you carry as a soul. It's the DNA that's implanted in you. You know, and you said a minute ago, and this is a word that I'd never heard before. And like I've done almost 1100 interviews at this point with authors on books. And you call it rewilding, you said it a few minutes ago. Yeah. And I think you refer to it as rewilding. So how does this rewilding restore the microbiome health? Because we know now because of the studies that have been done? Not in particular, the studies between Heart Math Institute, but there's a connection between the heart and the gut. And actually now they're saying that the gut is more important. I don't want to say more important, but as important as the heart and that the two are interconnected. How would we use this rewiring to restore the microbiome and what is this connection between the gut and art?
Dr. Luc Maes
So it so when our state shifts? It's also reflected in the guts and we're finding that people who are stressed that the gut microbiome shifts. Now what is the gut microbiome? The gut microbiome is a collection of microorganisms that actually is present not only in the guts, actually mostly in the gut, trillions of microorganisms are present in the guts. Who are they are influenced not only, by the way by our stress around us, but actually the diversity the if those if the gut microbiome is balanced, you can actually deal with stress in a much more effective way. So it's a two way street. So what we're learning is that these organisms, the gut microbiome, there's actually a microbiome in the lungs in the skin. But actually, the gut microbiome is truly more important because 70% of our immune system is wrapped around the guts. And these organisms that live in a microbe in the guts continuously monitor the external environment, they assess the diet, they also assess the nutrients that they can extract and provide our bodies with. So the healthier the gut, the healthy the healthy diet, the healthier the gut. So the gut can make messengers that benefit as you mentioned, heart health, and also brain health, also our mood, so that the expression I have a gut feeling wasn't far off. So yes, the gut is crucial to our mental, emotional and physical health.
Greg Voisen
It's important and, and we've all gone through this, this bout this period of time with the pandemic and COVID and around our immune system. So you stress this immune properties associated with a boba. Yeah. And I think this is as, as important or, as most important, you know, especially since everyone is very on top of this, they're like, Okay, immune is a big thing. Can you speak with us about how this helps our immune health as well? And really what we can do to improve our immune health?
Dr. Luc Maes
Correct. I mean, to get back to the world rewilding to explain that a little bit more. rewilding is actually a word that comes from conservation biology, where we are where biologists restore environments to their native or original state, so repopulating an ecosystem, rebalancing an ecosystem. So when I talk about rewilding our back microbiome, that's what we're doing by eating healthier by including ingredients such as Baobab that help the gut flourish and become more of a balanced ecosystem to have a healthy immune system. So yes, immune health 70% of our immune system is wrapped around the guts. And what we're learning like for with COVID, for example, there was some research done in Italy, that show that people with a healthier gut microbiome, people who were eating more fiber, more probiotics had a less severe outcome from COVID, they were able to have be more protected from the damaging effects of COVID. So again, pointing back to the way we fuel our environment, our internal environment, and how we can best protect ourselves in this rapidly changing environment.
Greg Voisen
Yeah, and I think everybody who's listening understands the importance of this in their overall health. So when you do mind body spirit medicine, in this case, as a naturopath as a functional medicine doctor, that interview that first intake that you take in, which can be an hour, hour and a half, is to really start to look at that tapestry of your life, the own DNA, your own web you've created so that you can get in there and dig deeper into somebody's health, both their mental, their emotional, their spiritual, all of it. And I think that's the integrative medicine approach, and always has been for a naturopath. Now, I know we talked about a lot today. But if you were to leave the listeners with some sound advice on gut skin and immune health, what would you inform them that they need to do or might want to consider doing and why these supplements that you produce are so potent, and helping them with this overall healthy lifestyle because, you know, look there, there isn't a be all and end all in any one thing. There are lots of things you need to adjust in how much exercise you get in what you take in your in natural foods that you're taking in, in the supplements that you're taking in. And it all blends in together to kind of make this tapestry, this big tapestry. And so what kind of advice would you give him if you were given him Mind Body Spirit advices and naturopath.
Dr. Luc Maes
I mean, we're in a great time to kind of make inventory it's spring. You know, we try to clean home when it's spring, and maybe we can clean Our internal home was well, and you can look in the fridge look in your cabinets. Look at what foods contain artificial sweeteners and chemicals that you can't read and probably yourselves and know what to do with. Try to add foods as much as you can that are as close to nature. Shop at your local farmers market, get the cleanest foods you can and support people around you with local foods and also integrates once you have cleaned up that diet, which is the ultimate foundation, then you can start refining that with adding more fibers such as Baobab wood more poly phenols. What I like about Baobab is because it's so nutrient rich, you don't have to add too much more. It has calcium, magnesium, potassium, a lot of vitamin C. So you're slowly built, you're built on one a good diet. Secondly, when you address that part, I recommend to sit down every day and breathe, take at least five minutes, take a deep breath because we forget to breathe, we're all in a rush. You're all running around that part of the parasympathetic nervous system, the calm part of us needs nurturing. Sleep, very important exercise. In fact, exercise has been shown to improve my gut microbiome health. A healthy sleep improves gut microbiome health. So as you refer it as being a web, everything is connected. So I would say sit down, take inventory, maybe do a seven day diet history. Look at what you what you feel your body with and maybe what you can replace it with. And, and look at all these different aspects, the breath, your sleep, your exercise your diet, and start there before resorting to a huge complex of supplements, which should be tailored according to your individual
Greg Voisen
needs. important advice, really great advice. And for my listeners. Here's a little cookbook, a little cookbook that
Dr. Luc Maes
We work together with local vegan chefs here in Santa Barbara, who have created plant based recipes adding the benefits of Baba.
Greg Voisen
Yeah. So when you go to the website, look for this. You can go to Amazon, is this book on Amazon? I presume it is?
Dr. Luc Maes
Yes. And I mean, people can also access it for no problems accessing the site.
Greg Voisen
Okay, super. Well, what I can say is I've learned a lot about boba, and about you guys and again, I for my listeners, it's go K ay ay IB a e.com. There, you're going to find out more about Tom and Luc and Barbara, you can shop at their gut health, their skin health and their immune health kind of stores for their products. There's also the link to the last crop film. So if you want to see more about what they were doing, you can learn it down there. So it's pure, it's potent. It's wild. And it's microbiome, micro wellness, microbiome wellness, microbiome wellness, this is the book actually go out and get it. We appreciate having you on Luc, really so much training, all the things that literally make up who we are as individuals, and how you as a physician and a naturopath and a functional medicine doctor approach it. You know, I think the key is how people approach the healing, right? Because when we when people are sick, there's so many ways that you can approach that healing and I love your approach. I think it's fantastic. Namaste to you and the team. Thank you. Thank you for being there. I appreciate you and Barbara and Tom. And again for all the listeners. Go watch the last crop video. I think that you'll learn a lot just from that because it was very well done. And you can see what they're the B Corp is doing. Thanks so much, Luc. It's been a pleasure and an honor.
Dr. Luc Maes
Thank you so much for having me. That was fun.
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Inside Personal Growth with Greg Voisen · Podcast 1012: SAVED! with Craig ThayerJoining me today is bestselling author Craig Thayer featuring his book SAVED!: One Trauma Surgeon’s True Accounts of the Miracles in His Life.
Craig is also a co-host of national radio show Raising Expectations. And through adversity, he has become a well-respected surgeon, head of trauma, community leader, and forever a jokester. Craig’s intent in sharing his stories are to give you hope, inspiration, a sense of belonging. His passion is to inspire and motivate others to live their life to the fullest.
One of the things Craig wanted to share with us is his book released last December entitled SAVED!: One Trauma Surgeon’s True Accounts of the Miracles in His Life. The book is about his reflection in his life and chosen career as a surgeon.
If you want to know more about Craig, kindly click here to visit his website.
I hope you enjoy my engaging interview with Craig Thayer. Happy listening!
You may also refer to the transcripts below for the full transciption (not edited) of the interview.
Interview Transcipt -Not EditedEmailDownloadNew TabGreg Voisen
Well, welcome back to Inside Personal Growth to all my listeners. Joining us from Cohutta, Georgia, but that's spelled C-o-h-u-t-t-a, Georgia, you don't pronounce that CO, is Dr. Craig Thayer. And Craig has written a new book that's just been released. And I think you can all see this it says SAVED!. And One Trauma Surgeons True Accounts of the Miracles in His Life. Excellent book for everybody. I'm going to let my listeners know a tad bit about you, Craig. Craig's life is a study of God in the ordinary, lovingly adopted it nine months, he used his favor, to swim competitively, play waterpolo, to graduate from UC Davis School of Medicine. And as he started a private practice, he has held the noble positions of surgeon review committee chair Chief of Staff, and trauma medical director and created a trauma center. He shares his stories in this book to teach people to see the miracles right in front of them. And always said, it's kind of like the miracles are right in front of you. It's like the old saying, acres of diamonds, you know, people are searching all over the place and try and find something that's right in front of their nose. You know, Greg, Good day to you. Thank you for being on here. Well, I'm honored to have someone like yourself, because it brings a new perspective, I always love getting different perspectives. Whether it's issues of spirituality are tissues of wellness and health. And I think you can address both of those. And issues that we're all dealing with as a human species, right? That we're all confused about. Many times, we're confused, because we haven't found clarity or not listening to that inner voice, that intervention from God, that intervention from a higher spirit. So what inspired you to write saved? And what was the primary goal in writing this book? That again, I'm going to hold back up for my listeners, that's kind of a drawing of Greg, that's excellent. It's, it's very well done. So why did you write at the primary goal of writing it? And what do you want the listeners to get out of it?
Craig Thayer
So you know, my grandmother, who I would call Gigi, because she's a great grandmother to our kids, I'm five. She just told me for 15 years, I'd take her to Sacramento Kings games. And you need to write this book to inspire people to give hope, unify. And it really couldn't have been written that that soon, because one she needed to pass, I think because she left two miracles behind, which are in the dedication of the book. And that was August 7 of 2021. So and then the, the, again, the second reason was in the very last chapter, titled Ralph was a friend of mine. And his death is just profound. If you don't read the book, read that last chapter. Because it will give you hope. I think it will. You know, we all think so we wonder, is there our power? How did we get here? Why are we here? What's two, we have a purpose, all those things. And so, you know, I found faith in Jesus and Christianity. So that was part of the mandate of my being adopted by a Catholic mom. So and she was Irish Catholic as they come born in Ireland and came over when she was 21. So,
Greg Voisen
so Catholicism has played a big role in Yeah,
Craig Thayer
but I would nowadays I would say more evangelic and nondenominational just to be more unifying. There's always Catholic jokes about, you know, which I won't go over but, uh, you know, so it's just, you know, I think, being more into the Bible and reading it, or its content, and again, it's either in Hebrew or Aramaic, in the Old Testament or Greek in the new with some warm air quotes from Jesus. But yeah, to actually study and keep an open mind. That's the way I was brought up. So I was just blessed to have I would always give my dad credit to make me think about the way I was behaving, treating my mom, I'd always argue with her, but really, my mom was the sounding board. And so I would argue 1.1 direction one week and the next day, the opposite and, as I'm sure drove her crazy, but she was doing,
Greg Voisen
being the profession that you've been in and finding God in the ordinary, you say in a circle in the book there. You know, I've had many discussions with people about their finitude lately. Don't ask me why. But I think people since COVID, have been thinking about it more. We obviously saw a lot of people die during the pandemic. Yes. And you've seen a lot of people pass. And in passing, you've seen some go with tremendous, like, don't let me go, they're afraid, and others that I would say, pass peacefully. I've seen both when I say peacefully. And it always seems the ones that I've watched pass peacefully, either the ones that have faith, right, and have an understanding, once they don't have faith, obviously, have a lot of fear. Right? So when you look at faith in fear, opposite ends, jump to juxtaposition. Can you address that? Because you cover this range of topics and spiritual and, and faith? And what do you hope that readers are going to gain from just that understanding itself?
Craig Thayer
I think when they when they read the book, and again, it's about my life story, but really, it's about the miracles and God in my life. So. So when you look back, and you use the words, coincidence, luck, lucky, impossible. Just think about those, those could be the miracles that were in your life. And that were You were intervened by God in that made a big change in your life. So. So you know, God, it also shows clearly that God, God's still there, he's still doing miracles in my life. I mean, the pictures in the very beginning of the dedication, my grandmother died at 1031. At night, she had this clock that was sacred to her that they fixed. And she got to hear the last chime at 1030. Tonight at 1031. Well, two days later, it stopped at 1031. And then there was a stool in the guest bathroom that had a book on it. Next to the sink that had her glasses of bookmark, she clearly had been in the book and was going to come back and read it and the title was gone missing. So no, these are the small things if you don't look, you don't see. And if you don't listen, you don't hear so you know, and I think the other things in the book are hopefully portrayed that, you know, Christianity is about not judging. You know, we're all people, we all bleed the same good artists that a Sacramento actually Mandisa, same with Toby Mac, you know, we all bleed the same. So, and then again, the last chapter with Ralph and to his finally finding faith, you know, in a clear demonstration of, of his behavior, and he was an unbeliever. So it's just, you know, I think it's that they gain that there's hope. And that faith is one of the ways to that. Not all of it, but it's part of it, for sure. Well, we
Greg Voisen
do we have had several authors on here that you were talking about the book open to a certain page and bookmarked and her glasses and call us signs and symbols, you know, for me, it's always been and my people, my listeners understand this, you know, I see 1111 All the time, or 111, right, one, so you go to a numerologist. And so what does that? What does that mean for you? And it's about a rebirth and awakening, right? And I've noticed this in my car on my phones, or my whatever, for longest time, it just seems to be that I see it for some reason. I'm looking over it just like you saw your grandmother with a bookmark to 1031. And the page mark on the book. There are signs if you're awake. God has put them there. Right? You may look up at a sign and see something that says stop. And you're, you say thankful you did because if you had proceeded you may have been in an accident, right? All these things that are working on behalf and you say one of the themes of the book is divine intervention. This is where we're going with this. Can you share a personal experience or story where you felt that God intervened in your life? I mean, you've got many in there, but let's just let's just pick out one of the one of the
Craig Thayer
more I'm already getting chills because it just it was I do medical mission trips, I go to Honduras. We did one trip to a big hospital. Normally it's an outpatient like surgery center or plastic surgeon's office type thing. Bullying is seizure. But this one was at a hospital, the Honduras had just fired half of all their health care givers. And these people, so they volunteered their time to be there for 21 surgeries, that I found out what they were literally the day before. But I have to pack all my suture and all those things. And guess because I didn't have a list of what that was going to be that I did have a list the day before. But then that actually morphed the day we were there to a different list. So you got to be really flexible on these trips. But the very first case was a laparoscopic gallbladder removal and this lady. And I had someone that comes with me on the trip all the time, Jason Guzman, who was an EMT, and he would scrub in when we're doing the small procedures at the surgery center like thing in coupon. But this one was big. And there was a CIRCULATING NURSE. They were trained like all the nurses we have, they were watching us. And I realized he can assist me on these cases. And I don't normally ask, you know who's going to come on the trip? And who's going to be with me that day in the operating room. But there's this lady named Leah, and I look at her. And we walk outside and I say, what do you do? And she says, Well, I'm a cardiovascular Scribners. I almost fell over because I'm like that saved that trip. If we would have gone back in and Jason would have had to set up all the instruments, the sterile fields, we would have gone home, we would have been kicked out of the operating room. She's done this a million times. I looked at her and I said thank you God because I didn't ask for you. You're here. And you know how to do this. And I need you I'm part of a team I can't do I can't be a quarterback without someone catching the ball or blocking for me so it'll get blindsided. She began to cry because she's never been treated that way. She's been treated with you know, it said pre Madonna cardiovascular surgeons that just treat her like no junk. So that's the first thing so then we go in we she sets up. We're going to do a laparoscopic procedure. We'll old school I began my training was half open half, half laparoscopic, so perfect time to be in residency. And, but it was old school. So they have this cotton sock that goes over the cord to the light in the in the in the camera. So it's sterile sock. But the inside is not the suction system was the same appliance that I would use back in America. But it was hooked to a Shopback which was extremely loud. Oh, wow. TV was not a 35 inch HD color TV but a 13 inch color T and then the Connery was similar to what we would use. So all these things had to work. And then you have an insulator that was probably the first generation that showed you had flow, it gave you a pressure of the of the belly that you're you've got to get the flow going into with co2. This was the miracle or the real miracle that procedure. I look at it, I get to a point where I've got all those things working the suction the Katari. But I need 15 millimeters of mercury pressure in the belly, it stops at 12. I look at the insulator and it's saying that we're out of gas. I look at the gigantic co2 tank, and it says zero. And I'm like I literally I just leaned over prayed to myself, I look up it's at 15. And I think okay, I've got a backup plan, I can do an open like I was trained the first half of my residency, if I have to. And so literally, I operated on her for an hour and a half because she had the worst cirrhotic liver from hepatitis virus. And portal hypertension. So every little vein was gigantic, it was three times its normal size. So bleeding was a risk. And there was a surgeon that was there from Honduras who wanted to see how this was done. I didn't know his level of training, he looked really young. I clearly learned that he's never done one because they just didn't know how to set all this up. And so it was a perfect case for me to teach him how to get out of all these critical situations. You get into a vein grabbing colorize it and then getting the momentum which is this kind of fatty apron that hangs off of the colon that just wraps around things that are inflamed. It's kind of our watchdog of the abdomen and I had to suck fluid out I would read something clear because you just go slow so you don't interest things. And somehow I still had co2 and I still had the pressure and literally so at the end of the case, descriptor Just comes over and says, I don't know how you did this. It's an empty tank. And I even asked, Do we have another tank? At the very beginning? They said, No, we do not have another one. So. So I got done after an hour and a half, and I looked around at the clock behind me. And it stopped at there's a number seven o'clock, seven after on the seventh day of the month.
Greg Voisen
There you go. There's divine intervention was with me the whole time. Yeah, that is a great story. And you know, you have so many stories like that in the book. And one of the things you stress, Craig is the importance of community and our relationship to faith, you know, because your journey has really been about I don't want to call calling on this, like you did God, calling on faith, to get you through obstacles, challenges, things in your life. And you speak with the listeners about why it's important for people to connect with others in their spiritual journey. Because, you know, okay, you're, you're a man who believes in God, you're a man that prays to God, you're a man that follows the Bible. You're Christian, right? Not everybody listening is right. But at the same time, we all have many people have some faith. Maybe, maybe they're Muslim, maybe they're Jews. Maybe they're whatever they are. But the point is, he said, we're all interconnected. Right? And you believe that this community of interconnection, because you're not bias toward just this one thing, you're just saying, Have faith don't doubt. Right. So what would you tell people about their spiritual journey and how this can kind of reawaken them? Yeah, I
Craig Thayer
think, you know, you've commented on community, I think COVID was a huge demonstration and risk benefit of not having community of sheltering in right. So women between the ages of 23 to 45, had a sixfold increase in suicide, and depression. You know, mental illness is hugely expanded in America, from sheltering and the kids in school, or at least a year behind in math in a year and a half in English, and their social skills are probably two years behind. So it doesn't help us not to gather. So that said, I mean that, you know, Christian wise iron sharpens iron. So when I have questions, or I'm not behaving, I start to judge people, which is what Christians are not supposed to do. And they do some do. I mean, you see fights amongst Christians now. So but, you know, gathering gives you support, it gives you the ability to pray for each other, that last chapter with Ralph, I mean, my getting out a knee and putting my hand on his leg and praying for him, was profound to him. And it walked him to the door for him to make a choice. You know, and in biblically, you know, it's interesting. So, Bibles is a good book, just to study for an interest if you don't have faith. You know, Jesus talks about us being the body of, of, you know, the church, that he's the head, and we're organs. And so the important point about that, which is that we are all the same, you know, we're equal, but not all, not all, we're all equal. But that's similar sometimes. Because, you know, I mean, we may be a kidney, or an eye for doing the body analogy, that's in the Bible. But, you know, we can't function with without one of those things. So we're each important to each other, like you said, there's a relationship, whether it's spiritually or connected in other ways.
Greg Voisen
Yeah, I mean, I think if you're, we were talking earlier about, you know, what's going on in our world and the battlefields, you know, just you know, in Ukraine, well, we don't know if the person next to us is Christian or whatever. But, you know, if some bomb goes off, and we need to help the follow up guy next to us, we're certainly not going to say what's your religion, right? But what I am going to say is that, in in times of struggle, people go to doubting their faith. And I want to address this because that in it all throughout history, people have gone through these heavy uncertain times and uncertainty about their life and where it's going and all the change. And obviously, we're kind of programmed, most human beings the species is programmed not to want to change. Alright, there's resistance to change. Logic Yeah, it is it is who we are, you know, it's like the watchman's rattle. We almost wait until something catastrophic happens before we're actually going to make the change. So call it global warming, call it whatever you want environmentalism and things, the food famines that we're having in certain parts in Sudan and other areas, right? It's a challenge, right? The war in Ukraine, what would you say to somebody who's out there looking at all of this, and maybe doubting just doubting their faith?
Craig Thayer
I think I think everybody faces down. I mean, I do I do now, I mean, who am I, to be on this platform to be speaking here today? You know, I cheat because I have this title. And my let the read some poll of, you know, just having the MD after your name, or do gives you this pedestal and six to a much higher trust in what we say. So I'm not going to abuse that. So. But yeah, I think I think we all phased out. And they'll, especially in trials, like you said, so what I have found that works for me is that if the fights bigger than I am, that I've got to turn to something I can, I can immediately and quickly and fix the things that I can, but the things that I can't, aren't in my control. So go to someone that you think is right for yourself, pray for, you know, pray for other people, you know, one of the best anxiety, which probably stems from doubt when those people are feeling that thing to do is just pray for somebody, serve somebody do something for somebody else, it takes your mind off yourself. So
Greg Voisen
you know, sometimes I would think, as a surgeon, you know, when you look at triage, and I don't know if you've been in any of those triage situations, but I would think you have been, now you've got to make a decision. Right? And one of the decisions you're making is for many people between life and death, who are the ones that we can save? And who are the ones that we can't save? And I know that's a hard one for people. It's a hard one, because you're I don't think you're doubting God, but you're actually hoping God is we're working through you to make the decision. You know, who's to say it was that person's time and I couldn't spend time trying to fix them to do that, because I had somebody who was less mangled. And I spent time with them, because I thought I could save them. Right? Does that weigh on you as a surgeon? Or do you just go to God and ask for support? Well,
Craig Thayer
here's the way I work. So my prayer for myself is please God give me the wisdom to do. So what I need to do quickly, the fortitude to carry it out, which just it also means not just the personal strength, but the physical strength, because you may be I've operated for 36 hours before, straight with no break. So and then the hands to do it. So I think as a surgeon, there's a point at which you have to disconnect. I think the times I've had to do that the most we're in this one's in the book, six year old, in a motor vehicle collision, and you just have to clear the mechanism and do what you're trained to do. And then, but then when you pull that drape back, and it's no longer just skin protruding through a paper drape, you break down, you know, and I was asked that question, actually, when I was a medical student, by Dr. fry eggs are now in pancreatic surgeon. And he said his first question out of the box, when I said I want to be a general surgeon was, what are you going to do when you lose a patient? And my answer was, Well, no, the best I did the best I could do on that day that I could do. And that's all you can do is just do your best. Yeah. And then, like I said, the parts that are in your hands, you know, pray to God that that's his will and what his goal will be the will so and then take solace in that wasn't you did all you could do, and this is the way it turned out. And so this was bigger than me. Well, in
Greg Voisen
in there's certain beliefs and philosophies about, you know, hey, look, it's been talked about eons when it's your time, it's your time. Who are we to say that that person who came in that's all that came in? It wasn't time for that soul to exit. That they'd come here to do what they were supposed to have done. And they did it in that short six yours or that short? You know, women who have babies that don't live very long at all right? We don't know. And I think if we start, second guessing that's a challenge. And you talk about the role of prayer is something you speak about in the book, and remind listeners who maybe are into different practices. Don't call it contemplation, call it meaningful prayer or contemplation, practice, but to deepen your connection to some higher spirit or God, right? What role has that played for you? And when have you found it the most helpful and meaningful in your own life? Obviously, you pray before you go into surgery, and then you probably pray after you go out of surgery. So what would you tell people who are listening today who don't have a regular practice of prayer, or contemplation or anything, they just believe when you die? You die. That's it. I'm done. You know, the whole day when I was a kid, is you and I can't be that far different from age. It used to be the worms crawl in the worms crawl out. Worms crawl up your Pentacles. Now, it's a little brevity here. Do you remember that old one? Yeah, that's an old one. And I don't believe that, but I do believe there's a lot of people that walk around that do believe that.
Craig Thayer
Right? And that's okay. That's, that's why God gave us you know, free will. Right. So there's no free will in the Bible. It's just that the actions in what's been a lot of the Bible story. So it's like, we have the choice. I remember, man, this is a different subject, but actually goes with prayer. So I was at a small, small group, Bible study. And Dave, I'll call him was raised Jewish. And he had this epiphany that, oh, my gosh, I can I can talk to God through prayer. I mean, he's just the, the Jewish religion doesn't really know that, per se. So that's what's cool about learning other religions. I mean, half of what we read is, maybe not even that, but Old Testament, you know, the first verse books of the of the Bible. So it's good to get outside that stuff and listen to people but and then, for me prayer, or whether you're meditating? No, and I think the science supports this, the whole alpha beta waves of the brain. And first thing in the morning, when you're not distracted by social media, your phone, the kids trying to get you to make lunches for school, or driving or whatever, find the quiet time. And then you can internally you know, examine yourself and pray, and communicate, and then you can listen better and hear better if you get messages back. Right. So people in the Bible, have the Holy Spirit, people of faith have the Holy Spirit. From that Holy Spirit. People have gifts. And so, you know, that's Jesus. When we got to Georgia here, we were looking for a church and we went to a Pentecostal church and okay, I'm not used to that I'm used to, I mean, reading has a big Pentecostal church. And they've kind of come under a lot of scrutiny, right? But it's biblical mean, the gift of tongues, the gift of prophecy, healing, all those things that are in the Bible. So they exist. It's just how do you get to those things, and they're a gift from the Holy Spirit. So
Greg Voisen
I think for the listeners, though, you know, Craig, you pray, but it's not one directional. You're asking for it to be reciprocated to come back. Right. Right. And I think when people don't receive the message, that's when doubt comes in. It's like, Well, is there a God up there? Is he listening? I'm not hearing, I'm not getting a response. I'm not getting whatever you want to call it intuitive hit. I didn't get anything. But you have to move beyond that. You have to keep the practice. Because as I think any Christian would say it's about your faith to continue that until you do hear the words of God. Right. Right, right. Because it's not like he, if it is, let's say, he she, what we're gonna refer to it is this. This I know, you know, when I was a kid, it was Now I lay me down to sleep. You know, that was my prayer on the side of my bed. I was on my knees before I got in bed every night, right? But I'm not certain I always heard anything back. Right? It always seemed one directional at a time you start to question that you're like, Well, geez, why am I saying this prayer every night, you know, as a kid? Right? So what would you do have? What would you tell people out there that are, that are doing that, and, and maybe not getting the message back?
Craig Thayer
Here's what I would say. So faith, faith is a verb, it's an action, right? So and, and if, if you want to feel that spirit, be in line in a car, or line in the in the store, have a Starbucks and buy the coffee for the person behind you. Don't, don't. I mean, it'd be fun to watch them, but you don't have to. But just you get this warmth in your body. So and then just give them a little prayer, Hey, have a great day, please do whatever you want to say something positive, some kind?
Greg Voisen
Well, that's, that's a great, I love what you just said, you know, pay it forward. You know, in other words, like, go pay somebody's toll at the toll road, or, you know, pay for someone for a cup of coffee, or buy them a meal, or whatever it might be. Those are small, insignificant things, but make you feel good because of compassion. And I think compassion, we know, because there's been tons of studies done in all the various universities on the oxytocin that are released as a result of being compassionate. We know when we give, period give, that's important. And that brings me to forgiveness. A lot of people hold grudges. You know, it's like, oh, that person did that to me, I can very, I'm never gonna forgive them. Right. And the only person we know Greg, it's hurting is the person who's holding the grudge. But you and I know that. But how can you help people practice forgiveness in their daily lives? And what are some of the benefits you've gotten as a result of your compassion and forgiveness for others.
Craig Thayer
So here's my analogy of forgiveness, and hurt and pain. So let's just say you have a really big heart. So let's say it's a stone and you're carrying a backpack and you put that stone in your backpack, you're now carrying that weight, it's maybe it was stolen, it's not that bad. You could put the more things you go through life, the more hurt the more stones you carry, the bigger that backpack gets. And eventually, at some point, it's going to be unmanageable. So the key is you need to get that backpack off stone by stone. So pick the smallest, you know, and just forgive whatever that hurt is. And pick that stone out. Even though it's a small, insignificant weight, it may have been the straw that broke the camel's back, and now you can be more functional are going to hate and that was good, I'm gonna do it again, with this stone and that stone, and then get them all out of there. And I think the way to do that is empathy. So my dad would call it the three step rule. So let's say I'm standing in front of you, and I make a very insulting comment, the first thing the person wants to do is just swing at me. Right? So get physical and violent and attack. But let's say that person were to take one step back, though, the first step was just to swing, the second step is to take a step back and go, Okay, why do I, why did I feel that way that I got so angry that I wanted to hurt somebody. And then the third step is to go. Okay, why did that person say that to me to make me so angry? So what are they going through? That they are trying to hurt me? When you can get to that empathic state? Then, you know, you're going to hear something that you didn't know, oh, okay, that makes more sense. And it's going to take away that hurt. Like, I mean, there's a lot of people I remember going to some weekend retreat, or the living was the name of it. And there was an ER group, like five people that all had for 20 years, this misunderstanding about what really went on and when it was discussed in an open forum and for supporting other people, they the confusion and the lack of knowledge was dissipated in the whole thing disappeared, like, Oh, I didn't know that. Oh, that's why that that makes more sense. So, you know, I think being an empath or just trying to put yourself in other people's shoes helps a lot. Yeah. And
Greg Voisen
as the, as you said, that example that she is about the surgical team or whatever created clarity. You know, I think a lot of the misunderstanding comes about what somebody says or doesn't say, and then it becomes implied and then you have this. You have a feeling of regret. No matter what it was, you know, you may have said something wrong yourself. And somebody took it wrong. Like it does happen frequently in our communications as human beings. And the key there is to have an open dialogue and be open to doing that to clear, clear the air. I know when I was getting my degree in spiritual psychology, people we were having challenges with, and I repeat this a lot is that, you know, I would journal and I wouldn't read what I wrote in the journal and I burned the journal. And then what I would do is I keep a picture of the person that I was being challenged by the communication on my desk, and I would send a prayer to them twice a day, once in the morning and once at night. And you'd be surprised how the small act of keeping a picture of somebody who you're being challenged by in front of you and looking at him and sending him a prayer of kindness or whatever, how that healed you. Right? Really simple little step. You know, you talked about living in the present moment. You know, that's very much a Buddhist concept. But I think that's a concept from a lot of faiths to live in the present moment. Eckhart Tolle is probably one of the most prolific writers on that idea. What ideas do you have for helping listeners cultivate mindfulness and living in the present moment? Because as a surgeon, every time you walk into the surgery room, you know, you're literally have to stay present. Right? You can't, you can't let a distraction of a noise or something distract you. You literally have to be totally focused.
Craig Thayer
Totally. Yeah. I mean, it's, it's interesting. A lot of noise to my brain, makes me not able to hear well. So people are talking about when I'm in the or I'm listening to the EKG, the blood, the heart rate, the pulse ox has a tone to it, not only a tone, but a higher pitch. If it's, you know, you becoming less oxygenated. Whether the SEC ologists is moving around what's going on up there? What? So I'm in tune with the whole room, the scrub nurse, what they're doing the circulator. Um, yeah, that's pretty profound. But um,
Greg Voisen
what about the surgery centers where you see them on TV, and they've got the surgeons and they're playing a boombox with music?
Is that really real? Or is that
Craig Thayer
oh, that's real. That's real. Yeah. So but the surgeon doesn't have any choice. I'm scrubbed in so.
So you get to pick the music. So maybe you're gonna listen to Mozart, or maybe,
Craig Thayer
or actually, one patient I did in residency that was under Local, and she was Native American. And so she wanted her cultural music. So it was this bump, bump, bump, bump, bump, bump, bump, bump, the whole time, and I felt like, you know, I'd take the knife and it felt like a tomahawk. And it was, it is it.
Greg Voisen
You know, I have seen so many reenactments or shows where, you know, the surgeons, they'll, they'll, they'll pray. And then they'll turn on the music after they pray. And it always it didn't surprise me because I think most of that music can be quite calming, if you're choosing to write music, and you have the right people in the room with you that are okay with. All right, we're gonna play jazz today, but it's gonna be light jazz, right. But I do believe that is something that can help you get focus if you're okay with it. I know you said, you were ADHD. And I know sometimes when somebody is ADHD, music can either have a really positive effect, or it can have the opposite effect, which is a distraction. And I assume you've learned how to deal with all of that. Yes. Yeah. Well, like your book is filled with great stories. It's filled with advice for the readers. This is the book everybody saved. We're going to have this book up on a link to Amazon. We're also going to have a link to Craig's website. But what do you hope the readers are going to take away from say, and what advice would you have for someone who is I don't want to call beginning their spiritual journey. How about exploring the various ways that they could actually bring more spirituality into their life? Because I think it what happens is it gets inserted Craig, and then maybe it leaves and then it comes back in again. And it leaves it's kind of like Joseph Campbell's the hero's journey. Right. So most of us are living that hero's journey. We're going out on a quest. A bad guy comes along we, we have to learn how to deal with it. And somebody comes along and saves us in the end and you get it. Right. That story has been told many times, but so what would you tell people right now that are on that kind of spiritual quest?
Craig Thayer
Right? So I mean, I would say, I think the books can assure you that life is short. There are there are stories in the book that, you know, one of them's Jason and time. So it's specifically about time, which I think is our, our greatest gift, right? So you can't get time back. So and then just that there are miracles in your life look for them, then then that improves your spirituality because then you know, there's a higher power. And it gives you hope, right? So, the other part of the book, I'm hoping people get his that hope, that we're all you know, people that believe we unity, so that we're not fighting. You know, I think back to my college days of the late nights hanging with a bunch of other students and talking about atom bombs and all sorts of social issues, and no one judging, you know, we just spoke our minds and, and listen to each other. And then and then I think the practicality you know, faith being a verb. So getting out there and serving people, you know, just find your gifts, your God given gifts, or firepower gifts, some talent, that, that you're, you're great at, make that a purpose, or and then a passion and, you know, inspiration and motivation is short passions or longer. And then and then use those to better yourself better mankind, you know, personal growth. So
Greg Voisen
well, I love what you said in our pre interview about your son's been in Boy Scouts. And I'm going to take this as an opportunity to talk just a tad about compassionate communications. And the work that we're doing with the homeless. You know, you were talking about how the boy scouts had a program that went out when your sons went out and you bagged up food. Ziploc bags, yep. And you went out to give food away. And I think the good lessons that young teenagers learn or even preteen, by doing something like that, is it starts to actually get them to understand the good feelings that occur from that kind of activity. It is not all about me, me, me, me, you know, my cell phone, my iPad, my there's my that. It's about we and how we can make a difference. And I see that in everything that you say and everything you do in this book. You know, this is really a book for people that are on the journey from the eye to the week. It's for those people that want to wake up and want to share their gifts and talents with the world. The people like Craig, who have helped and served 1000s of people heal. And in the process, as you can see, Craig has healed as a human being. And what I would invite all my listeners to do is pick up a copy of this book. Go to Craig there, we'll have it.net to learn more about Craig. There’sre's also a couple of QR codes in the front of the book that go to videos. And so I would encourage you to pick this up right on I forget what page they're on crack but they're right in the front of the book. And it's a great opportunity. It's the email address for Craig is Craig at for Thayers thay e r s.com. And you can also one of those links go to goes to his Facebook page as well. So Craig, Blessings to you. Thank you so much for being on inside personal growth and sharing your experiences as a surgeon but also your experiences in your connectivity with spirit God faith to help others realize that there is hope. Right, there is lots of hope. Get down don't get depressed.
Craig Thayer
Yeah. Thank you for having me. It's just a blessing that I'm here to share what I seen know and believe in. People have questions, you know, email me.
Greg Voisen
Yeah, definitely. Get in touch with them. Craig, thank you so much.
Craig Thayer
Thank you. It's been an honor.
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Inside Personal Growth with Greg Voisen · Podcast 1011: Tao Calligraphy with Dr. Master ShaIt is with great honor and pleasure that I am joined today by Dr. Master Sha. We’re going to talk about his two books entitled Tao Calligraphy to Heal and Rejuvenate Your Back and Tao Calligraphy to Heal and Transform Depression and Anxiety.
Master Zhi Gang Sha is a Tao grandmaster, healer, and teacher. He is also an author and has 30 books in his name, 11 of which are New York Times bestsellers. He has also founded the Tao Academy to share Tao wisdom and practices through classes, workshops, retreats, and training programs.
With the creation of Tao Calligraphy, he received the highest honors a Chinese calligrapher can receive, being appointed to the position of National Chinese Calligrapher Master as well as Honorable Researcher Professor by the State Ethnic Academy of Painting in Beijing, China.
Master Sha has also brought his mastery through books. Two of which were published in 2022. These are Tao Calligraphy to Heal and Rejuvenate Your Back and Tao Calligraphy to Heal and Transform Depression and Anxiety. From the titles itself, these two masterpieces of Master Sha were written to bring wisdom and hope to its readers.
If you’re interested and want to learn more about Master Sha, you may click here to visit his website.
I hope you enjoy my engaging interview with Dr. Master Sha. Happy listening!
You may also refer to the transcripts below for the full transciption (not edited) of the interview.
Interview Transcipt -Not EditedEmailDownloadNew TabGreg Voisen
Well, welcome back to Inside Personal Growth. This is Greg Voisen and the host of Inside Personal Growth. And on the other side of almost the country in Toronto, Canada, is Master Sha sitting in his offices there in Toronto. And I as Greg brings me great pleasure because Bill Gladstone was the one that introduced us. And I did an interview with Bill not that long ago. And we're going to be speaking with Master Sha today about two books. One, this one the Tao Calligraphy. And this one, you'll say, well, it says Tao Calligraphy as well. But one of them is Healing and Rejuvenating your Back and the other is To Heal and Transform, Depression and Anxiety. Good day to Dr. Sha.
Dr. Master Sha
Thank you, Greg. I'm delighted.
Greg Voisen
I'm delighted to have you on the show. And I'm delighted to have you speak about how people can kind of move this energy within their bodies. And in particularly using Dow calligraphy. That's pretty interesting. I'm going to let them know just a little bit about you, if you don't mind. And this is from his website, you can go to Dr. Shaw. That's Dr. SH a.com. Go to that website. There you can see videos, you can see the over 30 books that he's written, but he is a grandmaster, medical doctor, teacher and author of 30 books, including 11 New York Times bestsellers, a renowned humanitarian, he founded the love peace, harmony Foundation, and has received widespread recognition for his service to humanity, including the Martin Luther King Jr. Commemorative commission award for promoting world peace. Dr. Shaw has combined the essence of Western medicine with ancient wisdom to create soul, mind body medicine, and the Dow teachings to help humanity now it is website you're going to find that he's been profiled on wired and CBS and thrive globe and many different places. And he is world renowned for this master Shaw. That's not your whole story. That's just a little bit of your story. And you tell our listeners about why you've committed your life work, to serve to make people healthier and happier. Why did you do this work?
Dr. Master Sha
Thank you. Why was a teenager I walked on the street? I saw a woman like 56 years old, more or less. And the summertime, her uncle big swollen Esma so I came to her Greg and everybody. I said, auntie, Auntie, I was a teenager. I said, what happened to you? She said, I have a Samar. I have a heart sickness. Disease. I said have you seen the doctor? Yes, I did. And did you take a medicine? Yes, I did. Also I do but not too much. I'm still like this. That the moment I thought I wish I can have her there's a teenager heart that I saw my relative heart attack and cancer. I did have such a heart as I wish one day I can help these people know exactly happened. I studied modern medicine as MD traditional Chinese medicine as a doctor of acupuncture herbalist, now my main focus are like a Greg said I read the book I used to the art calligraphy to the end. So thank you, Greg, you give opportunity recently I create the Dow calligraphy Dow saw a video 10 minutes for hard for lungs on kidney for lower back for depression, or the whole word response. We have German, da Qi, Italy, French, we have all kinds of language in the Facebook, we can start today. So there are for us sounding to be both touch the button, you will experience the art how art can heal. Definitely. Greg will ask me questions about how this art works. I will also
Greg Voisen
well, you know the great thing master Shaw is that it does work and I know so many people who and we were just talking about David Meltzer and for those of you definitely get on he does a Thursday Show with David Meltzer and he's a very good friend and he was praising the work that you're doing. And you know you have the several we have over 30 books, but this dow calligraphy today we're going to focus on today heal and rejuvenate the back and to heal and transform from depression and anxiety and obviously knows our world is filled with a lot of anxiety and depression based upon people living in these times. Now the question is, are these times any different than times from before? Let's start with the book that addresses back pain. I think there's many people out there that have back pain that's this one. And there it is for all of my listeners. Let me get it right there you go. How does the Tao of calligraphy energy work help to move stuck energy that's in our back that's actually creating this pain
Dr. Master Sha
Yeah, thank you in this book I Greg mission in a chapter one I need to while two minutes explain it's a call universal law of a Shang chi Do you like this? I liked it because the video was wonderful. So the universal law ancient wisdom Shan Chi Chi three words to mean some measure. Chi means energy people understand so many people take Qi, CMC, cheap vital energy, lifeforce. So what is the Shan Shan includes a soul which is Spirit also hard our physical hardest spiritual heart, also mine. Ministry people he I think, definitely Greg interview so many experts thought leaders, man milage people are meditating, meditation, consciousness. Therefore beloved, the classical conscious consciousness science of formula nude Zion relativity. So from an iStan quantum physics now we have Deepak Chopra urban national we got Pat in the source, Greg no Bill Gladstone and he organized we talk about the consciousness and it's a few consciousness. So I teach you Tao as a Dao serving. So what I want everybody to do millions of people here on the consciousness, superficial consciousness, people consciousness and the imaginal consciousness and the logical consciousness huge consciousness sub consciousness that huge you feel people meditate mind over matter mindful knees and positive thinking creatively using positive words as all kinds of techniques. I personally feel this is a great but the next step here are more than that even much more hear it teach is so fullness so over major mine is great and not enough. So, today you will experience that tape I will show you and also the calligraphy I will use this calligraphy to do a hearing very shortly I stand this is a standard relativity we all know that matter energy, but I started relativities have not touched here. So there are 4000s Dr. Ruling and I quantum physics, we have our formula scientific formula here s plus e energy plus m equals one this is our formula S plus E plus m equals our scientific equation. So which means so hard mind plus Energy Plus image equals what is the one nice to feel when people hear love message I love compassion a light heart is a receiver okay? I love this calligraphy. I love this Hossaini. I love the greater wisdom mind the process okay process, that energy IQ move and the blood the flow. This is called information system. shinjin universal law. When people are angry, blood pressure go higher, high big people fall down get a stroke. People start hard bother, tire depress anxiety, suicidal, negative information hard to receive also mind the process, energy is blocked and blood in our flow matters of blood. So there is a negative and information system. So therefore how do we heal? We apply the positive we use a past Say deep go to go this way and to remove the negative How To Remove minutes if people follow Jesus ministry people follow ya in compassion Buddha ministry people follow God ministry people follow all kinds of spiritual teachers but uh for me is I write a calligraphy now we talk about calligraphy, calligraphy here are Calligraphy is the art this is art, and Tao Viator Tao calligraphy Tao is the ultimate source, Tao cannot be seen her the touch, we can see the calligraphy. So therefore why the calligraphy the source, they put the light here, and people just treat him later you see the video tracing. Also people just put it here to here.
Greg Voisen
Master shot, correct. So you say that in the book that the information is the root cause of success or failure. So we're talking about either negative information going into positive information, which is where you left off on the whiteboard there. How do you work with the soul, the heart, the mind the body, to basically take this and create healing energy from the negative you had a lot of minus signs on there, to the positive through the calligraphy, because, you know, you put Einstein's theory of relativity up there. And he used to debate with David Boehm, the quantum physics guy out of London and then came to Cambridge. And they used to debate about quantum physics. Right, the two of them back and forth. And Einstein didn't quite believe Beaumes theory around quantum physics and what's called a whole movement, H O L O mo, mo V m en te hola movement all one on one. And so you do touch on this throughout this book. So how do we get all of those aligned that mind that soul that body that spirit? How do we get that online so we can heal?
Dr. Master Sha
Thank you such a great question. In fact, it's the only one word Tao da o is the source you know everybody know loud? I you know author of dada dada aloud you will also the also without judging people no Bible, Jesus the Bible louds doubt the feelings of people and the Bible. But you know, but the clouds doubted us in other religions is ancient, the doubt laws that give the concept we leave between heaven and earth. Heavens car Chinese a year on theory versus a year we live in is a field by the Heaven Earth our Creator who create a data heaven Earth allows us as a doll doubt can be the source of doubt. So one word to doubt so therefore quiet called Tao calligraphy see behind me see in a book because everybody I Greg, every listeners we can connect with doubt like people connect with God connect with the Buddha, Jesus Mary universe's sound the moon. But basically, Greg such a great question. How do we connect the dots? You call it? I call it C Hello? Like Hi Greg. How are you? Okay Marsha. How's the weather in Toronto? We see Hello. Are you know see theotown Okay. Okay, just I call see hello. It's so easy. A deal God. Do the song. Deal. Greg. Can you help me? Of course I help you. So yeah, when you ask it to your daughters, what do you want? Guys? What do you want it to? Unfortunately, people have spiritual title not open. They cannot hear from an adult of God. And I wish you open spiritual China. We all can open I opened my title. I said da da da da da said what I can help you when I say okay, I need some healing. Okay, relax. It is coming. Right if we didn't tell you you close the light coming. So therefore the same thing. See Hello technique. Ellen, can you find the book? I have earlier book is so mind body medicine. And you know so many people get a benefit because why? I teach. I taught to say hello, of course you're inside here.
Greg Voisen
So Cloud Zoo, Lao Tzu. Dr. Shah said that the ultimate source Tao created one, the oneness Then he called the whoo world which means emptiness. According written in your book, that's not me. That's your book. Can you explain the ultimate source which is Tao? Now I know it's hard to explain, but maybe you'll make it easy associated with emptiness. That's part of the world because I think theoretically, everybody gets emptiness because when people meditate, Dr. Shah, they are trying to get rid of the monkey mind, which is it keeps running around in circles, right? But that emptiness is that pace of peace, harmony, balance, relaxation, the ultimate that we look for through our mind's eye and our crown chakra or wherever we're looking. Tell us more about that with the calligraphy because when you draw the calligraphy you're moving energy.
Dr. Master Sha
Yes, thank you. Great, thank you. Great I admire you I got a so many interviewer your question is really a question for wisdom you ask at all normal creation this is probably your the first time media person asked this wonderful see Tao is allowed to teach in Belgium I shared the other day in teaching Facebook with a bill a host a show for a year TAO automated sauce doll create one and also this very deep wisdom Greg asked what is the one it's a waste of field is everybody know the field our field please, we shouldn't feel like in a physic This is a listen to energy this is a card Kim Chi Chi means energy or Qi chill means a clean. So there are so another energy I use this card this card what she what she what she means a heavier energy these turbid energy. So these two energy was mixed, they were not a separate for how long for billings trillion years this is a whole the source create everything. So here this is a call Tao is all to meet creator or source. So the one this this call one is one is I just you know I you know and they should call work or just not great the world or non-amputees. What do you mean amputees? No human thinking you know monkey mind just know I'm the Greg said Millie's appearance easy people are practicing all kinds of techniques, what they are doing, they try to like a human mind stop thinking that is a very difficult you see, a difficult to do. So, therefore, but the basic human beings are here with So, the talk credits one needs to four years one at a time ready we call chi transformation when a time ready, they said clean cheap, cheap, cheap clean chi Rice's form of the heaven, the city's interpreted G force to form the Mother Earth. So this is this is that we call one creates to two means a heaven and Mother Earth young and the Yin or your Chinese yin yang concept Yom is a fire nature you miss water nature than three two creatures three so many philosopher University professor they explain three Kevin Mother Earth and the human being so I asked aloud I the spiritual communication largely said no my teaching three is now this what I say the white lords who say that hey when Earth what you hear if I put the white line here above this art you know remember just so Greg said it's in my book this is war dog crates why is war I'm putting this word but the form to heaven earth we can see the sound the moon the star EBA you know scientifically even see more clearly but the farm here two three go down series creates one So recruits one oops. One means that 10,000 in Chinese 10,000 represent an infinity. Whoo means saints, saints, Mother Earth is one planet, there are cold Tulisa planets, we live in a solar system meal curry universities there are countries of that. So therefore, one will human beings human beings are here human beings most smart amount all so there are four loud to teach in Sao crease 123 So, therefore, you can see down here heaven mother earth we live here Mother Earth and a human being is the four biggest things what the difference is a here dog creates one is war and from 231 War this area called your why oh you were you weren't you weren't existed great this world a yo word and a war. So here no thinking Tao cannot be seen heard or touched. But here we can saying we can hear we can touch a touch a blackboard so therefore it's a huge difference. The university's Tao creates a word and the U word I'm in a spiritual journey we try to farm here go back to dow
Greg Voisen
So, for the listeners could we refer to the whoo world as the ethereal and the me Are you world as the physical so the physical world versus the ethereal world which everybody is trying to get to they want to understand but talk about the Dow normal creation and the Dow reverse creation to the listeners because I think that's important. You have two theories presented in the book there are concepts called Dow normal creation right Dow reverse creation
Dr. Master Sha
Thank you. So, dow creates one below the condition in physics blurred people know and that is the true energy war mixed not to separate when a time radii clean energy go up forming the heaven disturb the hammers. So now hammers to creates a three this is three just 19 Explain three you know many people see the heaven Earth human being loud told me three is a blurred condition here. One blurred condition plus earth we know mathematics. One plus two equals three. And the blurred amputee needs a flat heaven Earth is a three, three creates a Countess of planets and stars goddess University is a human being here. So also like Dora, dog, cat, horse. So this is Tao normal creation doll creator 1231 Well, this is a deeper philosophy than what we was creation is the one who will go back to three. Okay, three return to return to what one we tend to doubt this is adult rewards creation.
Greg Voisen
So that's the reverse creation and the other is the normal creation. Okay, I get it. I understand. So look in these two books. Okay. You explain this calligraphy and you got a big piece of calligraphy hanging behind you. And I know we're gonna play a little 10 minute clip toward the end of his interview. But can you explain how the Tao calligraphy transformative art and is as it's referred to works to heal many of our misaligned energies and maybe show an example because I know in our last call when I talked with you in Toronto, you were actually moving your hand and you were doing some artwork and you basically do that for people online on a zoom right
Dr. Master Sha
yes yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah. I put on this way I I'm not very short you see a tape today because we are talking about the back I will show a video here the back and everybody can experience so under the hardest work is a calligraphy is art. So why write a calligraphy? Tao put the light on the path and the people just a few because it created the invisible dog can only be seen her and attached. We can see our We can all see the power we see but this creative power I must suggest your servant everybody can do this but uh you know you know the story you really hard to touching and we have a way to some people have the disk select you know sleep days and a bone piece of bone structure chain they just use a clip we see even the doctor chiropractor, they are so surprised the bone structure change with some documentary we did so therefore it's so many stories because why Greg's ask us such intelligent no host asked for such a deep question asker nobody asked me down normal equation tau with crucial until now how many years are you are the first one as I know you all I understand very well you lead people to understand the deep philosophy how does the work so simple do not single complicated,
Greg Voisen
I think. I think Dr. Sharpe because you explained the Dow it helps people look at matter energy, soul and spirit in a different way. And they now can relate to this video and this is probably a good time to play the video because here's what it's going to do. It's going to show you this Tao calligraphy and action to art form. It's going to show you people who have had success from this from both back pain or depression or anxiety that's inside this video as well. And so if you'd like to cue up the video let's go ahead and play that video for our listeners.
Dr. Master Sha
Yeah lower back we do lower back. Welcome, I am bringing you Dow colleague we fee and the Dow song for your lower back Dow is the ultimate a source and a creator this a source of field carries most of the positive information energy and matter I have created a sacred a Dao calligraphy these calligraphy reads you yah hey you this is the sacred dog mantra in the south these sacred the mantra cannot be translated but it carries the source information energy and the matter how do we use this field? We need to connect with it the first step is to trees to follow the paths of oneness right and connect with the source of field do it with me now. Why you? Now follow the animation to continue tracing, now, we will connect deeper with the Dow colleague we feed Dow sound field by chanting you, ya hear you plays the one path over the lower abdomen and the other pom on the lower back. Any area that you have an issue on pain, stiffness, or inflammation. Follow the animation to chat with me.
You can turn the silently you can chant allow you yah hey do you ya Hey yo, you ya ya Oh whoa, you owe me yo you ya Hey, yo, you ya hate me Do you ya hey yo you ya ya Oh you y'all Hey yo you all say your whole you ya hate me hey do you ya hey do you ya bye Oh, you owe me yo you ya hey, y'all home now, we will use a breathing technique. This technique is unique, because we are going to raise the Yin light, positive information energy and the matter. We will bracing very high frequency and vibration because we are bringing the Tao calligraphy Tao sang feel. Inhale deeply through your nose. Visualize the golden light, calm to your lower back. Exhale. We connect with the DAO sang by saying you ya Hey yo, see the animation? Young hell You owe ya hey yo.
Continue follow the animation and a close has to do few time more. Inhale all you owe ya Hey yo, in hell you owe ya hey y'all in here inhale all you owe ya Hey yo, in Hell yeah. Oh yah, hey y'all. I wish this video serves you well. Please listen three times per day for chronic conditions. Listen more, there is no time limit. love you love you love you.
Thank you,
Greg Voisen
Thank you. So I see everything is in threes, threes, everything is in three. Well, that was very instructional and very informative for my listeners. So if you were listening, and not watching the video, you were just on audio, if you can go over to the YouTube channel, because I think you'll actually get to see the calligraphy you'd be a disadvantage not to see the calligraphy and for my listeners if you need to, and you want to do that as well. Just go to Dr. Shah s h a.com. There you can learn more about this as well. Now, you know, if you were to leave our listeners with your wise advice and the about energy blockages no matter where they are, if they're blockages in the heart of their blockages in our back, if they're blockages in our leg to use the DAO source to clear the negative energy, what would you tell them and that they could do or that they could work with you to have this done to guide them through? What would you tell the listeners?
Dr. Master Sha
Yes, I will see Jessica symbolical gatorboard in this book I want calligraphy here. Great Love on pages 6868 a 68 So why holy what you hear shoulder pain. heart, stomach, neck, knee and so therefore green tea dog calligraphies to China is a portable, invisible power, why roadie already there. And now also people can find out in the social media I have 100 soundings her touching result. Yeah. And just try this. And also you know the click the video people love it. And we have a tau sub ice o ng tao Te Ao tau song, Data Data Data calm. So therefore you can access more we have now I'm creating maybe 10 Already liver, heart kidney people have. By the way, Greg and BJU got a grasp of cancer by last two months. BU has a near death experience. And he had the letter I can send it to you privately. You take a look. So dog calligraphy dosa and he said that truly saved him a delicious sweet ham near death experience. Very hard to touching. So I want everybody give a try calligraphies he said transformative art master sharp connect with the source and put the light and in one sentence we take shower, wash the skin but basically we feel like going into a harder kiddie Newbury wash inside. Everybody else stand down like the shower you said to remove the blockage and nobody's here. This is so complicated is so simple. Thank you
Greg Voisen
and for my listeners, in the book on the front pages of the book, you will find a QR code. And I think it's a very compelling story that goes to a story that David Meltzer talks about his personal story and how you helped heal him. It's a really special story. Because David had gone through some very tough financial times. He had lost everything and made millions and millions of dollars. And then he met you. And he tells the story about you. And he's obviously very devoted and dedicated to the work that you're doing. So for my listeners, there's a QR code in both of these books. They go to the David Meltzer story. And I think it's very compelling. If you would, in closing, Master Shaw, what happened with David that you did to help him heal from all the egoistic challenges that he was having? Because he was saying that, that that was part of his probably making all his money and using his ego, to show the world that he'd made a lot of money and then losing all of his money.
Dr. Master Sha
Yeah, about eight years ago, eight years ago, I went to Los Angeles because I couldn't build Gladstone. He introduced me. I was in his office. I said to David, what can I serve you? I consider myself as a servant. And the day we said, I want more money, more money. He lost $100 million than I do the calligraphy I say that put your hand here 10 minutes a day. Are you know, he's a lawyer. He's a pieces of man. Never heard about the user hands and trees and calligraphy. Like I showed you the tape. And he did. And some time he went home, his wife said have you done master shot? 10 minutes? Not yet. Go to cheese 10 minutes before you eat. He said his wife is more believable to me. And now even now every morning get up the first things. He treats my calligraphy hundreds of million dollars. Plus, now his author, his you know, coach, speaker TV show. And no, he gave me a credit is huge. But I said I'm your service. Now I put the audio I put the book I put the power in a calligraphy the key. How much you believe? Do you put the time each day to do the job? And my teaching heaven 50 Serve air for the 50 you do not think okay, sit down here money fly to the table money will not fly to table. You do not think I'm gonna heal right away. You have to do your work. I love you, Greg, thank you for your great interview for your great question. And we still
Greg Voisen
Thank you so much, Dr. Shah for being on the show. And also for those of you who want to do calligraphy with Dr. Shah, he will do it over zoom. And you can connect with him at Dr. shaw.com. And just send it in at you know, get in touch is what it says. So get in touch. There's also the Dow Academy and there's the LP H Foundation. And there's also a shop if you need to get books or other things. There's a list of his events and news and sign up for his newsletter. Dr. Shah Blessings to you Namaste to you. Thank you for being on Inside Personal Growth, sharing about the Tao calligraphy, both for the back and for anxiety and depression. Thank you so much.
Dr. Master Sha
Since Thank you love you all. Thank you.
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Inside Personal Growth with Greg Voisen · Podcast 1010: SolidU Cosmetics with Vaiva ZvirblyteMy guest for this episode is the Founder and CEO of SOLIDU Cosmetics, Vaiva Zvirblyte.
Born in Lithuania, Vaiva lived in Shanghai for a great portion of her adult life and later, before relocating, decided to travel around Asia. Her adventure turned into serious decision-making about what to take and what to leave or gift away which is when the concept of solid shampoos found her. Then after returning home, Vaiva decided to try learning and making solid shampoos herself. Started as a unique gift soon transformed into a small retail business.
This is how SOLIDU slowly but surely grew its client circle, and became the most well-known solid product manufacturer in Lithuania, with a growing presence in the Baltics, Europe, and abroad. SOLIDU was created out of the love for the environment and a need for a simple yet innovative solution. We are a brand that creates a choice for people that want to lead a sustainable lifestyle and have high-quality beauty products available to them.
If you’re interested and want to know more about Vaiva, SOLIDU and their products, please click here to visit their website.
I hope you enjoy my engaging interview with Vaiva Zvirblyte. Happy listening!
You may also refer to the transcripts below for the full transciption (not edited) of the interview.
Interview Transcipt -Not EditedEmailDownloadNew TabGreg Voisen
Welcome back to Inside Personal Growth. This is Greg Voisen and host of Inside Personal Growth. And for all my listeners, they know that I am environmentally conscious and aware. And I think around our consumption habits. As human souls walking the face of this earth, it's one of the most important things we can do, actually to prevent pollution, but also for global warming. And joining us from Lithuania is viva. And I can't pronounce her last name, she's gonna pronounce it for me. She said don't even try. So Vaiva is the CEO of a company called SolidU that I was introduced to by Richard Arnold, who is our head of sales at the natural products West Expo. And we've been profiling a few companies here that I made my way around to see that I think we're making a difference. And Vaiva’s company is one of them. Good day to Vaiva How you doing?
Vaiva Zvirblyte
Hi, hi, happy to be here. I'm Vaiva Zvirblyte. So that's why I said..
Greg Voisen
That she said, she said don't even try to pronounce her name. So I didn't. But Lithuania is on the other side of the world from San Diego. But the reality is, we reach so many people worldwide. And I want to give this platform because as people go for personal growth, they're actually growing for everything spiritually, emotionally, the way they consume everything that they do. They're trying to change their lives and they're seeking for a new way and a different way to do that. Via you know, you have an interesting story about how you got here. And I think the listeners would love to hear that. In other words, how you built a woman owned company, how you actually got to solid shampoos, and I'm going to show my listeners, because I've been using these shampoos, this is one of them. Here's grandma said this is another one. Here's one called Pink. There it is, you can actually go to their website, which is just solid S O L I D u.com. To learn more about the products in Viva and the company. But just so my listeners know, not only is this solid shampoo, but it's also the packaging is 100% compostable. So I think that's really important. So tell your story by then tell the listeners a little bit more about you and how you stumbled on this.
Vaiva Zvirblyte
Yes, so my story I still is starts very far away from this whole concept, right? I'm really not a chemist. I'm not a cosmetics formulator before I found that this brand, and my background is actually in languages. So I studied Chinese I studied Chinese language and culture. And because of that, from the senior, I moved to China, where I spend
Greg Voisen
Shanghai writers. You're right,
Vaiva Zvirblyte
Yes, yes, I spent some time in other cities too, but mainly in Shanghai. So that's why I'm also happy to you know, to talk to you and to talk to people like you across the world, because I do believe that everything is connected. And we have these common things and common goals that we share in common problems, right? So yes, I basically grew up in China because I went as a student and stayed a long time. And I've just started working with different businesses because I was a Lithuanian who could also speak Chinese. So that's a really special skill that I believe is maybe like 20 people right now that have this skill in the world. So I just started helping people who needed help in China, you know, importing, exporting, going to trade shows, helping with branding, helping with selling their products to China, because at that time when I was there, we already started moving towards selling to China and not just buying cheap things from China to import to Europe or USA. So in this I just got into United interested in business, I got interested in products, especially physical products, things that you can see and touch. And, you know, you can help the product end up on the shelf and then you actually go and see a Lithuanian product being sold in China and I felt that's amazing. But I always felt that something is missing things are not right. You know, like us. Sell mineral water in plastic bottles that you ship across the world and these huge containers, then to be wasted and for that trash to be lying around, you know, so that felt like you spent so much of your energy and time doing something that you hope would lead to a better world. And I really wanted to do something like that for myself. But I didn't have any idea or anything that I could start. And the idea came to me when I actually decided to leave China and not to go back to Europe at first, but just take some time off and travel. And that is how I discovered solid shampoos. Up until where did
Greg Voisen
Where did you, where did you discover solid shampoos, you know, I've switched to solid shampoos, pretty recently, like within the last six months, because before going to natural products West Expo and meeting Richard, I was I was using a solid shampoo. There in many of the health food markets, solid shampoos are available now. And growing. Mine was really more and I think the people listening out there, you know, it's very easy to go get a pump bottle of shampoo. And then you are throwing another bottle into a recycling bin that you hope is being recycled, because you hope the plastic is below what's rated here as a five, which means that it's supposedly going to be ground up and used for something else. But we know we know that as much as that's collected in in our bends. The statistics are is only probably about 50% is actually being recycled, the rest of it is being thrown away. It's ending up in a landfill. And as you say at your website. And I won't take this away from you because there's a great video there. compostable products like that, like in this case, those plastics aren't compostable. Those plastics are going to sit there and have a half-life of a couple of 100 years before they would break down. Yours breaks down in 42 days, I watched the video. And I'm just amazed by the way, folks, here it's coming in a totally sanitary box. And this box breaks down including the back of it and 42 days. And you got to watch the video at the website just go to solid u.com to do that. So how did you what I'm interested in is how did you find solid shampoos? How did you formulate those solid shampoos, in other words, what's in them from a standpoint of the actual contents themselves? So that going down the drain even is not polluting our waterways as well.
Vaiva Zvirblyte
Your rights, plastic as much as we would love to see, you know recyclable, recyclable doesn't mean anything if there is no one to recycle, right? So it's recyclable is just a great, you know, vision and hope that we have that, yes, somebody will take care of it. But the reality is that actually 93% of all plastics have never been recycled, and you have no control over what's going to happen. Even you know, having the best intentions, you do sorted, you do put it in the right then. And you still cannot have an effect on the final step of somebody taking and actually recycling it and reusing it. That's why it was very important for me to give back that control to consumer because you can compose in your home, you do not need to look for any facility to go you can just put it in a garden, you can put it in the house plant in your house, so you have full control of the full cycle of the product. But to me, I didn't come to this. From that environmental perspective. I actually came from a different angle from traveling. So like I said, I decided to leave China and to just backpack through Asia. And I wanted to take everything I need with me in one backpack. And I really cannot carry that much. That's very strong. So I took a lot of time to research and I was researching. What do backpackers do? How do they travel? How do they make it I see these videos. I see this blogger is you know traveling with everything they need. And that's how I found out solid shampoo as a tip for travelers. I've never seen that before. It wasn't available in any of the stores around me, like cosmetic stores, supermarkets. I've never seen it and so I had had to specifically order get it shipped to me for this trip. And I was very skeptical. I said this cannot work, I really care about how my shampoo works. And this cannot be real. And I don't believe that this will be as good as normal shampoo.
Greg Voisen
It's interesting. It's interesting you say that because our first introduction to it. My wife in December was in New Zealand and brought it back from New Zealand. And New Zealand is very environmentally conscious. And they have a lot of solid soaps there and they're in they're quite good. Actually. Yours is better, in my estimation, but because it lathers so well. You know, I think people need to understand that you do not have to go get a shampoo bottle of soap in a plastic container to get your hair clean. And to have a lather that you would like to have. What actually makes it lather so well? There must be something in it.
Vaiva Zvirblyte
Yes. So basically, the other question that you asked before was how my journey of making it staggered, right, right. So once I got back, and I started looking more into this, I saw it's not widely available. And I figured, why not try and make it because I didn't have a full time job at that time and was I was a consultant on project based work. So I thought I could just try and make it because that would be very interesting. And when I started looking into it, I started with soap, because I didn't understand the chemistry behind it. And I thought oh look soap is made from all natural materials is made from oils, nice oils like coconut and you know, some almond oil or sunflower oil, I can mix them and get a great product. But then I tried washing my hair with it. And the results were horrible. Because I didn't understand what a pH is, what a balance pH product is, what does it mean for your scalp and how you need to have specific ingredients that are designed for conditioning that are designed for here and are like gentle and pH balance. So I had to go deeper, because I was very interested. And so I just learned what ingredients you can use to make solid shampoo. And basically what you do is you take surfactants that you would normally have in a shampoo, you just take them powdered or otherwise solid because you have liquid and powdered options. And you use the same ingredients. As an illiquid shampoo, it just do not add water. So the challenge with formulating a good product is balancing that foam ladder with enough conditioning with enough natural oils and moisturizing ingredients so that you do not get overly dried out there that you still have quality feeling on your hair, especially without using plastics such as silicones, for example, which are you cannot see it. It's not like a plastic bottle, but it still has a very horrible lasting effects. Once it goes down the drain. You called it
Greg Voisen
surfactant. What is the is that something that you get from you source someplace and put it into the solid. So I know that at the natural products West Expo, I met with a gentleman that's making solid soaps that instead of dish soap, you use a little brush and you put it in and you can wash your hands with it. So it's a solid bar that's in a little container by your sink. And I got one of those. And I think the interesting thing about this whole solid, so part and I want to I want to really emphasize this, you know, we as consumers buy basically what the media has been telling us to buy. And this is about changing a habit. And when you once you change it and you really see that the effects are actually even better. You realize you don't have to put this plastic into the environment. But more importantly, I want to emphasize this. When you ship something like this, it doesn't weigh five pounds, like you know a shampoo could or two and a half pounds. This is ounces. And we spend so many millions of dollars and pollute the environment so much just by shipping products that have water in them on like your laundry detergents. We're talking about soaps here, those laundry detergents that you buy and the big thing and whatever 80% of its water. Okay, the same as the shampoo that you're buying in a plastic container. Probably 80% of its water, right?
Vaiva Zvirblyte
Yes, yes, exactly. 80, 90% is water and you're just shipping water around when you have it in your shower. So, when you think about it, it's really crazy. But I agree it's difficult to change habits. And it's difficult for everyone because you give us the things you are. It's difficult, it is hard, I understand this. And I went through this process myself, and I will notice the change in generations as well. So when we have people that come up to me that are, you know, maybe, you know, older than me, they're like, what is this? Is this soap? And it's so hard to explain. No, this is a shampoo. No, it cannot be a shampoo, it looks like soap. So it's soap, you see, it's a shampoo. It's very confusing. But when I get like teenagers, not even Gen Z, I don't know, what's the them to me, and they're like, oh, what is it? And I just say it's a shampoo. And they're like, Oh, cool. It makes sense to them, you know, they accepted. And they already think that those options have to be there, they do not question it. And they're open to try. They're expecting things to be sustainable. So it's very interesting to see how different generations react to try new products.
Greg Voisen
Well, you know, you're a socially responsible company. Look, you're sourcing everything you're putting in and compostable products. And there is a gentleman who I've yet to meet the founder. But he had a great idea around soaps, it was called Clean the world, you probably know them. He takes old bar soaps that come out of all these major hotels, and he grinds them out and puts a new scent in them. And then he sends them around where all the bacteria in the world is so high that people are actually dying. And so what's happening, and he's giving them to the homeless, I know that many of my listeners already are aware that my Compassionate communications, my foundation, helps the homeless, that's what I do. And the Ukrainian refugees who are coming to apartments in Poland. So we buy bicycles for the kids. So the point is, is that is solid, you now on a track to do anything from a philanthropic standpoint, because these products are so good for that particular population, that you would think that this would be a perfect opportunity for Viva to, you know, jump into that into that area. Do you have anything that's going on that we should know about?
Vaiva Zvirblyte
Well, at this moment, we are not in a profitability position yet to be able to do that as a small startup company. However, whenever we have a chance to do something, even a small step, we always take that chance. So you mentioned Ukraine. And for listeners who don't know, Lithuania is basically next dorms. So there is Ukraine, Poland and Lithuania. So we do have a refugee crisis here, we have a lot of people coming here. And especially when the war started, we had an influx of refugees that we gave care packs, so we contributed to give them care packs with our products for people who arrived here and maybe they do not have things with them for that those first days. And then again, we leave we have some excess stock, like for example products that are a bit damaged so they don't look so beautiful for sale, but they're completely good products. Right normally donate them to organizations like Caritas that's helped the homeless or people in need, you know, people in shelters, and things like that. So we do small things.
Greg Voisen
Well, it's, it's as you grow, and that's why I'm doing this podcast, I want you to grow, I want you to be hugely successful. Because I think what you're doing here is so important for the world. I mean, you know, we're all making an impact in our own little way however we can and doing good and this really is comes from a backpack story with us speaking two languages to having an interest in now you got this product into your backpack to really formulate these products. And you have more than just shampoos. Now these shampoos are formulated for dry hair as well as oily hair. So when you go to the website, look at that. But you know you're a cosmetic you actually put it out as cosmetic. Talk about some of the other products that you've formulated with the same environmental intention in mind and also the being sourcing of the actual materials that go into it.
Vaiva Zvirblyte
So we started with shampoos, conditioners and soap so I mentioned that I also started to make soap and that was one of the products in the line. I And more recently, we added body butters and body washes. So body butter is also very interesting. When you think about it, when you buy a body lotion, again, you have so much water. But not only water, you have all of these things to make that texture to make it spreadable and nice. So you have all these like fillers, that just give you the color and give you the feel that you know it's a nice feeling lotion. However, in a solid product, you do not need all this. So what we do is we take just pure oils and pure butters. And we mount them into the shape of a solid product. So you take just the pure nourishment of these oils, again, without the water not as heavy, but just as good or maybe even better.
Greg Voisen
And so you've got all these other products that are at the website as well. And I see you've put it into a solid. So once somebody gets into the shower, and uses the body butter, or they put it out there sink with their hands, you could use it that way as well. So you know, you've got up a whole line of products, which are, as I've said, I'm not gonna beat this one too crazy. This is for my listeners go look at the video. The products actually compost in your backyard. I know I have a thing called the lomi l o m i and lomi has a composter that sits on my sink top. And literally these boxes can go into the lomi and break down as well. What's in the future? For solid? You? Where do you see yourself? Headed? Viva? Where is this company going? What would you like to see happen? I know there's a lot of people out there that listen to this that could help you with distribution. And I think distribution is one of the biggest things because you've got to get the products. The other thing is they have a facility for all of my US listeners. They've got a distribution point. I think Richard said it's in North Carolina or someplace. Is that where it's leaving from? Yes. Okay. So you've got it in Europe, and you've got it in North Carolina. So these products are being sourced as environmentally sensitive as they can to get them to the area. But we obviously need to get more distribution, we need to get them into more West column chain stores so that people can access them. Anything that's on the horizon anywhere where you see where you and Richard have made in ways to get the product into some of the major chains.
Vaiva Zvirblyte
Yes, actually. So as you said, we already have a lot of traction in Europe. And we've been working in Europe for over five years. So it's been some time, but only recently, we started looking towards the US. So Richard is actually from the US. But he lives in Lithuania now and we are all in Lithuania. But we see so much opportunity there. And we just started. So as you mentioned right now you can find the products online on solid cosmetics.com. But we are looking more into retail, and we are about to actually launch with one of the distributors in the US. So we hope that in a few months, we will be available at some selected retailers. And from there, you know, there are so many places that this product would be perfect. And I really see the product being on the shelves in a physical store online is great. But we have this packaging in a unique shape. We have nice natural scents. And I think when people see it, it's much easier for them to make that sustainable choice than to take all that action, you know, go on the internet, look for the website, look for the product, get it shipped, you know, so I want it to be very convenient and just accessible to everyone. So for growth, we are also looking for more investment into the company to ensure that we can actually do this and we can expand them in this way. So you know, all of this combined, I see so much work ahead and so much opportunity ahead and so many more things that we can do.
Greg Voisen
Well, one step at a time. Viva that's how the companies are grown. I know it seems you've been at this a long time you'd like to see it explode, but you know, you're working on getting people to actually change their habits. And you know, one of the larger things here is to get people to change habits to realize that this is a better choice. I mean everything around us you know I I'm vegan. Well, not I'm not expecting everybody listening to the show to be vegan. But the brand you don't, you know, from a standpoint of the product itself, I don't even know if these are vegan products or not. I think when you're making choices, so important, those choices are really the key it from what you eat, to how you travel, to the ways in which you choose to kind of put environmentally sensitive plants around your house that don't consume so much water. I mean, we in San Diego, all of Southern California is a desert. Why would you actually want to add plants and people think, well, it's such a lush environment, it's a lush environment, because we're using so much water from so many different regions, right? But the reality is, is this still is kind of a desert area. And I only encourage people who are listening right now to this podcast and could help Viva in any way. So if you are out there, and you own a retail store, or you're in distribution, or you're looking for a company that's doing good for the war world, we will put the connection up there on this podcast, to get the Viva and to get the solid you and to speak with Richard. Richard Arnold is literally the person that's in charge of distribution and sales and so on. And he's wonderful. He's a wonderful person to work with. So is there anything else that you would like to add because if people go to your website, they can learn about the various products that you've got, and the body butters and have different soaps and the conditioners. But all of these I mean, I sound like a big commercial right now. And I should, because I'm 100% sold on what Viva has done here. And she really has created an exceptional product. I use this every morning. Okay. And I can tell you, the one of the things is people look at this small little container, they go, Well, how long is that going to last? This last leg? Literally? I bet you could probably use it for a month or more every day and still have it leftover. Would you say that's about right, maybe a month?
Vaiva Zvirblyte
Yes, that is accurate. For sure that here you can make it last even longer. So for me, it's a month or so. But some people sometimes we get messages like oh, I've been using it for half a year. But I think they're pretty special. They really
Greg Voisen
I don't know what they're doing to get a happy half year. But, but it's there, but do for all of my listeners please the reason that natural products West Expo I go we just did a show around. Ted Dennard, who owns Savannah bee, and his company isn't about funny. Even though he sells honey. It's about the preservations of the bees worldwide. And in this case, Viva story isn't as it is as much about the shampoo, the solid shampoo, but it's about how she packages the shampoo. And she sources the materials into things to make it more environmentally conscious. And I think anything where you have a solid product. Again, I'm gonna repeat this where you're not shipping 80% water and you're having to ship this heavy, heavy, heavy content across the globe. Think about that, because it makes so much more sense to do it that way. And viva I want to thank you for being on inside personal growth and spending a little bit of time with us today, talking about the opportunities that my listeners have to change a habit around something as simple as washing their hair, and being environmentally sensitive by doing it. Or body butters instead of going and buying all those creams and all of those plastic containers, which Viva just said about 80% of them aren't getting recycled. You now have a choice to say well, I got a compostable packaging. I've got something that lasts a month. Right? I've got something that is good or better than what I would get if I got it out of those other products and I will say that I mean I'm a big commercial to me this is better than shampoo itself. So anything parting that you would like to say?
Vaiva Zvirblyte
Well, thank you so much for your kind words, and I'm so happy that you're actually using the product and not just, you know, oh, I know this brand and just you actually used it and your hair does look good. I'm happy to see this, that it works for you. And
Greg Voisen
I tell people, I tell people Viva for somebody, that's my age, I still have hair. I think so much of it. Well, it looks that way. It was just cut. But the point is, in July, I'm going to be 69. So that's the other thing people go, I don't believe you're 69. Maybe this shampoo is coming down on my face.
Vaiva Zvirblyte
I'm very happy to be here and to be able to share my story. And if anybody wants to get in touch with me, yes. Feel free to add in the description to add my contact to add the website as well, because I'm sure people do not remember solido. So yes, if anybody wants to follow us on Instagram, Facebook, tick tock, everywhere, please, please still, you can send us a message anytime. We are a small company. So we will read every email we do read every message and we really care about your opinion and your comments. So keep that in mind and very open to hear from anybody who was listening to this podcast
Greg Voisen
Well for all of you who are listening to for somebody to go on a backpacking trip and then try and figure out how they could carry soaps with them and then to build a company from that which is now 20 employees and is thriving. I give you big kudos for that because it takes a lot of initiative. She also is looking for more investment so she can reach this market. So for any of my investors out there who would be interested please reach out to either Richard or Viva and thank you so much. And Namaste, thank you for being who you are and what you guys are doing and to the rest of the staff and to Richard, at solid you for building a great company with a great product.
Vaiva Zvirblyte
Thank you. It was very nice talking to you.
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Inside Personal Growth with Greg Voisen · Podcast 1009: The Savannah Bee Company with Ted DennardJoining me today is the founder of The Savannah Bee Company, Ted Dennard.
Back when Ted was just 12, he was introduced to honey and apiculture. From then, he was captivated. He kept bees in high school and college, taught beekeeping to village farmers in Jamaica through the Peace Corps, and studied native beekeeping practices in New Zealand, Vietnam, Ireland, and France before founding The Savannah Bee Company.
The Savannah Bee’s mission has always been about the bees. Their passion is to continue their sacred work of building hives, pollinating flowers, powering our food supply, and spreading beauty. And as they believe that healthy bees make for a healthy planet, saving the bees remains their highest priority.
The Savannah Bee has several projects supporting their mission statement like The Bee Cause Project. Hence, if you’re interested and want to know more about it, kindly click here to visit their website.
I hope you enjoy my engaging interview with Ted Dennard. Happy listening!
You may also refer to the transcripts below for the full transciption (not edited) of the interview.
Interview Transcipt -Not EditedEmailDownloadNew TabGreg Voisen
Well, welcome back to Inside Personal Growth. This is Greg Voisen, host of Inside Personal Growth. And joining me from Savannah, Georgia is Ted Dennard. Did I say it? Right?
Ted Dennard
You know, we say dinner and then art either way.
Greg Voisen
Oh, okay. Good. So, I met Ted at the natural products West Expo in Anaheim. And many of my listeners know that I go there every year, because a whole segment of this show is on wellness. And it's on making the world a better place for the most part, by whatever all of us can do. And Ted is definitely an example of that. And, Ted, welcome to the show. Thanks for being on. Also, thanks for sending me some of your finest quality, honey. This is, if you're wondering why this isn't a wine bottle. That's because this honey is called a gold reserve honey. And when you go to the website to see how much it cost, you'll see why. So this is this is definitely and he and I will get into talking about that. He also makes a lot of other products. And when you go to the website, it's not all it's got a honey derivative in it. But the honey hot sauce is another one. And this one I thought was interesting, whipped honey with cinnamon. So Ted has found a way to really, you know, what we call spice up, honey. It's really quite unusual for all my listeners are listening. I'm going to say a little bit about you. If you notice, the name of the company is called Savannah bee. And it doesn't have the word honey in it because their mission really is about bees. He's celebrating his 20th year in the business. He's committing to bringing the customers the most delicious honey source from beekeepers around the world, we're going to talk about that, most of whom we know by name and these P keepers share a passion for saving the bees. And each are carefully tending the hives to promote healthy bee population and a better environment. He believes that our greatest impact is in education, we're going to talk about the bee cause project, which is provided 800 grants in schools across the country and beyond introducing children to the science of bees and giving them a hands on connection. And if you really want to watch a cool little video at his website, watch him when he takes the bees out to the school and puts them in his hands. And the teacher does the same thing. Very, very cool. And each jar of the honeybee powdered beauty products and cultivated vibe. We're working to save the bees. And he does have quite a variety of products which we're going to get into speaking about. Now, Ted, you said you're celebrating your 20th year in the business. And since you started the business, what really has changed in the world for beekeeping? And how have you really grown the business in spite of the mites in spite of the issues and the challenges that has been faced? We've all of us have heard about it. But you know what it hits the media and like most people, most people don't really know what's going on now. In other words, it's like, okay, the world was focused on all these bees dying from the mites. And now we're not hearing much of anything, but I know you're still being affected in ways is that correct?
Ted Dennard
That is correct. Yes. beekeepers, and they're and bees and therefore beekeepers are kind of been struggling and under duress for a long time. And I think when it was medium, top of mind, you know, you know, the bees are dying. It just made headlines, but what that's been happening for longer than those headlines, you know, we're celebrating it or lamenting, and I guess there's a better way of putting it. And we're still dealing with it. But But beekeepers have been and will continue to find a way to persevere and keep bees alive. And you know, there's a lot at stake.
Greg Voisen
There is and it's you know, it's I know the biggest challenge you had for a while really was the mites right? Is it yeah,
Ted Dennard
if you asked me what's the worst problem I think the mites are the root cause kind of if there's a pyramid of problems, they're kind of at the base and if you didn't have them I think the bees might could handle a lot of the other ones without collapsing and then but yet these mites are just yeah, they're terrible parasite largest parasite to host relationship in the animal kingdom.
Greg Voisen
Wow. And I think that so many of our listeners probably don't know much about that right they will. At the time, the news broke, they maybe weren't even paying attention to it or not. But you know, you've got an interesting story. I don't want to involve into that. You, your father on a piece of land, and you're involved with the bees since you were 14 years of age. And you did a really cool TED talk to, and you really have a love for the bees. And this older gentleman by the name of Roy Hightower says, hey, I want to put my bees on your property. Right. So it's kind of like you were leasing him space. And I don't even think you did that. You just trade it out to learn about the bees. Can you speak a little bit and talk about what some of the things you talked about that TED talk as well? Because obviously Hightower was the infusion in the start of all this, right?
Ted Dennard
Absolutely, really, I mean, I think if I can put it succinctly, I kind of the beehive is analogous to everything in my world, right? I'm like, all the way down the rabbit hole of honeybees. But the everything they do is just kind of one interaction at a time. They go to the flower, flower benefits, they benefit and they just repeat that. And just but through repetition, there's little x build up to this amazing thing. Like when we have visits over half a billion flowers in a year and basically keeps the flowering plant world healthy and, and therefore feeds the planet and I can keep waxing on forever. But Roy was that first interaction that first dominant, I guess, introduce me to the world of bees. And had he not done that I may never have gone down this this journey. And but I did you know, so he introduced me and I loved honey. And I don't know what made me so enthralled with and captivated with the different types of honey that the bees created from different types, different species of flowers. But I was I was all the way in, not so much in the beekeeping but into the honey and, and then I had a landlord in college that that taught me about the amazing facts. And then I joined the Peace Corps and they sent me to Jamaica to teach beekeeping. And so it just kept, you know, you know, I was my path kept my paving stones and my path kept getting laid before me. I had no idea where
Greg Voisen
no pun intended, but as beekeeping in I don't follow it, but I have a love for it. I don't know why either, I consume lots of honey, I'm always interested. Is it a dying breed?
Ted Dennard
Um, I would have said so 25 years ago, but there's been a huge resurgence in hobby beekeepers. On the one hand, which is great because they're not moving bees, they're just you typically just in their yard. And that's, I think that's really good for the bee population as well with the need for pollination growing so strong. The price that beekeepers get for moving their hive to a farmers orchard or field has gone up so high that it's now very profitable for someone to go into the commercial beekeeping business. So it's there's been a big resurgence in the last 15 years where I don't see it going. I mean, it's not going away, that's for sure.
Greg Voisen
Well, I think you bring up a point that again, many people don't know but I'm aware of like in California here in the mid part of our state is the biggest avocado and avocado, almond almonds, and there are guys who raise bees just to stick them out there in those almond orchards right. And they get paid handsomely, from the almond tree owners to actually bring their hives in and you're saying this is the commercial trade that you're making reference to?
Ted Dennard
Yes, it extends beyond the almonds the almonds are an early crop so basically in most parts of the country that are frozen and you're having to maybe feed your bees so they can stay warm and fed they get to move to California and pollinate the almonds and so they're making money but like you said good money yeah colony when they would only just sort of be doing nothing. And so that's a great start to the beekeeping year and some people they really don't need to do anything else except keep their bees alive for the rest of the year. And they didn't do it again. And I
Greg Voisen
watched a documentary about it. And some of these guys travel with these bees a very long distance to get to the almond trees in California. And it's on come across all the way from Colorado and different parts of this
Ted Dennard
here to East Coast. Yeah. Pretty much nearly every single commercial beehive leaves and goes to California literally. Yeah, every beehive. Well, that's
Greg Voisen
it. I mean, for those of you who aren't aware of this and you're listening as podcasts right now and you're thinking yourself, these guys will pick up and put them in their trucks and move them all the way over here to stick them out in the middle of the almond trees is just mind boggling to me now obviously when they're in these fields, you have pesticides you have climate change, you have all these other factors that are affecting this What's fragile ecosystem of the bees and what have you done to save the bees and manage the hives because all of these are factors climate you know pesticides you name it,
Ted Dennard
We look we all struggle with that I say we we've probably all whether we know it or not, individually are getting the same pesticides in us but the bees are sorted out good canary in the coal mine and they are you know, highly sensitive and affected by it. We, we do everything we can to keep our bees alive and thriving, and yet we still run up against problems. Again, there's mites, you can treat with mites, there's certain medicines, some are natural, some are less so but there's and you can mix it all up and have you know, very diversified means of kind of protecting them from the mites but um but ultimately you still have here and in Georgia, the mosquitoes can be so bad that they spray for mosquitoes with helicopters. You know that's it's just fallen on everybody and all the insects and this common indiscriminate killer. So yeah, we're up against a tremendous amount of obstacles,
Greg Voisen
but also as these as these areas like Savannah, Georgia places where I live even in San Diego you know, we've seen such tremendous growth in housing and we've seen changes in the actual you know, really when you look at the amount of flowering plants there are they've been reduced tremendously because of the industrialization of just these areas right and it kind of saddens me because I don't see as much ability for this pollination it the bird population is also an affected by this but are you mean are you in rural areas with most of these bees trying to find places where they can find flowers and play and nectar?
Ted Dennard
Yes. So a couple of a give two answers to that one is there are times that it is healthier for bees to be in a city let's just take New York for example. Tons of people tons of concrete but there's also a lot of planted you know, ornamental trees and flowers and bushes and, and the bees honestly, they can do better in a city than they like dude near a cornfield in the middle of the you know, no city in the middle of Iowa and I'm not picking on Iowa right but you know, if you have a mono crop, even if even if bees wanted to go to it if it's it only blooms for like so many weeks, right? If nine weeks and then it's done and then if there's nothing else growing they have nothing else to forage and feed and the diversity of flora that's in some of the cities can keep them going because there's a succession of blooms and so they are able to get nectar which is what they make honey from and then they get the pollen as well which is sort of their vitamins protein, or amino acids and everything so that's one answer that sometimes cities can be good. The other thing is yes, we do go to places that are just forest for the type of honey that we want to make. So the big bottle of gold reserve you picked up that spade on the Tupelo trees those are just starting to bloom right now and only in the rivers and swamps between Savannah and West Florida nowhere else in the world can you make the honey and you know if it's been windy and dry so if it's not over 80 degrees, humid days if it's too windy or too hot or too cold or too to anything, you might not make any and so and bees because they need to visit 2 million flowers to make one pound of honey you can't just have a few flowers you need to have literally a forest of that type of species of plant that you're trying to make honey from if you're going to make a single flower type honey and but if you time it right and weather cooperates you know you do have climate change which is major. And but if it can come together, you have strong bees and you know what you're doing you can really you can make some good honey and then then you can move those bees and it's not gonna Hurt him to the next forest that is going to bloom. And it's a different type of honey, but you can make another honey there and then you can move them again, you know, and just you're following so it's
Greg Voisen
diversified.
Ted Dennard
Yeah, you're
Greg Voisen
watching the life of a honeybees. worker bee is pretty short, six weeks, six weeks, and I'm sure many of my listeners know that but just to repeat six weeks isn't very long time the queen bee How long does she last? A lot. I
Ted Dennard
love that story. So, the Queen is born a worker bee. And so she's kind of like Cinderella, she's fed royal jelly, which is this substance the bees create from this gland on the back of their head, feed it to the queen, she can live for years. So 40 times longer, super fertile can lay 1000s of eggs a day, determine whether it's male or female. And it's a fascinating story. But yes, it really is. colony is the super organism, that's the entity. And so it's not the individual bee that propagates a species, it's when a hive splits and the Queen leaves would have the bees kind of like mitosis. And she's she goes and makes a new home and she leaves half the bees with a new queen to take over the whole time. And so that's how one hive becomes too. And that's
Greg Voisen
interesting, because it is, you know, Lucky want to study bees, you could go to his website, but there's plenty of references out on Google too much of this, but the reality it's a fascinating study of nature. And I think what you said a minute ago, is that, you know, at a very micro level, the way our environment has been going, the bees are one of the first to see it and be affected by it. And whether it's been too little water, not enough flowers, pesticides, this fragile ecosystem is so important. And I think that's why it's important for people to understand, kind of more about honeybees. And what is the correlation between that global warming, you know, what's going on here, the challenges that we're having. So that was one of the reasons I wanted to have you on the show, and you really pointed that out quite effectively. And I want to thank you for doing that. Anything more you want to say about that?
Ted Dennard
Um, no, no, I think that's right. I mean, look, the planet will still be here. But if we want to help the planet, the way that we inherited, you know, where you have healthy, healthy plant, we're all producing oxygen, sequestering co2 and producing food for the animals and us, you know, and stopping erosion, all that stuff. You need this, you know, this relationship between pollinators and flowering plants to be healthy. And,
Greg Voisen
You know, that's at the very, very base of what makes up this ecosystem. You know, and so people I know, they understand that, but they need to be reminded. And you know, one of the things your company does, as you said, you don't have honey in the name because it is about the bees. And you've added so many derivative products and I noticed that the website like lip balm, honey hand, so punny cream is a line of products. You have 16 retail, like you said, now 14 retail locations throughout the Southeast, and one all the way as far west as Sedona, Arizona, you tell us about the outgrowth of the business and all these products that you've kind of added to your line of products because it's normally you know, when you see a beekeeper and a guy selling honey, and you're a much bigger business than most all he or she is selling is honey, and in varieties of honey, you know, they don't have lip balm, and they don't have hand creams and they don't have any of this stuff. How did all that kind of happen? And you know, how did you finally end up getting this in the retail side?
Ted Dennard
Okay, that's a lot so initially, right I started out the same way I was. I was a beekeeper and love bees and I didn't really want to sell honey started selling a few jars of honey. And then it's not uncommon for like the beekeeper to make the honey and then the wife is and now you have plenty of women beekeepers, but sort of traditionally it was like the guy who would go out make the honey and then they bought all the honey and the wife would help put labels on and then she gets to beeswax and stir it up with some oils and make some SAVs and some lip balms and they'd sell that on the roadside stand in markets and have a family kind of business like that. And then and that's how I started to make lip balms and crock pots and candles using the beeswax and then that just grew over the years. And I ended up farming out the beekeeping, kind of early on, I guess. And so I was buying the type of honey I wanted from the region of the world really, that I wanted to get that honey from. And I really focused on expanding the business and the products. And so it was, you know, it seems like it happened like that we have 100 and something different skews. But most of it's it was a long, long process to get there on.
Greg Voisen
Well, you even have biscuit man. Well, we show that biscuit mix.
Ted Dennard
Yeah, in our stores we Kelly's hot little biscuits, that's a Charleston company. So we support a lot of different businesses. We have Potter's that make tea mugs for us and coffee cups. And we have, you know, Kelly's biscuits out of Charleston making a biscuit mix that we then resell in our stores. So that's where that comes from. And we love helping other businesses to grow. And, you know,
Greg Voisen
what I like about you is because I could tell that when I met you at natural products that you are kind of connect the dots kind of guy, in other words, you, you, you're a good businessman, but you're doing good with that. And you then said, hey look, I want to do something that I think and you've formed this nonprofit called B cause project. And I want you to tell us a bit about it to educational program for children, United States, Canada, Bahamas and Puerto Rico. And you've done a lot with this. And it's very apparent at the website, when you go to the website, there's many videos up there on the website about it. So tell our listeners about the bee cause project.
Ted Dennard
Um, so one of the ways I feel like you can make lasting change, and I think you kind of insinuated early on is through, you know, education or just raising awareness. So I think if you can expose anybody, kids or adults, to bees, it's this mean, it is like Alice in Wonderland, it's just so fascinating. And so it started by putting one educational glass behind inside of a school in Charleston. And then we and then this woman, Tammy Enright, who's now and has been the director of the because we, she wanted some in her kids school, so we got some more schools to do it. And then some in Savannah, and the kids and the teachers and the parents, and just even the community just got on board with it and learned so much and embraced it. So we so we had this idea, like if we could put us in 1000 schools, we could raise a whole generation that would understand love and protect the honeybee. And so that's what we set out to do. And Tammy get the credit for growing it to as many schools and so there's over 800 schools that have been given these beehive grants. And so it's, it's, it's making a big, big effort, you know, and that's, that will probably be the best legacy. And again, Tammy gets a ton of the credit. We still support it financially, as do some other people. little shout out the whole Kids Foundation for supporting them as well. Which is
Greg Voisen
continues on you know, I mean, I think you're supporting it financially. But the reality is, the impetus of it was kind of you and Tammy and Tammy carried the ball. And that's what good entrepreneurs do. You know, they support the people that can support them. And that's what I love about you. And that's what you're doing. And now you know, the other thing you do that I found interesting that maybe other beekeepers out there and people that manufacture honey would say, but you source it from all these other places. And that's a pretty interesting business model. What's the purpose for sourcing all these other places? Like, you know, you have lots of friends in the business, so you get their money. You get other places for hunting. And then so you now have all these resources to get honey Correct.
Ted Dennard
Oh, yeah. A very vast network of beekeepers. Pretty much around the world. I mean, we don't get honey from everywhere but I know a lot of these beekeepers from Big World beekeeping conventions and just networking and I've sort of been on this, this search for you know, the world's best honey for you. was a kid really? Since 1980. Here it is. Yeah. And honestly, it comes back to be right in my backyard. The tupelo honey and then the sour wood honey from the mountains of North Georgia, Tennessee, North Carolina, that those are really arguably the two best phonies in the world.
Greg Voisen
Well, I will say I haven't opened this yet. See my listeners can see I'm saving this. This is almost like fine wine. You know, you can put it up in your cupboard and source it. But I am such a believer in this that I'm, I'm so thankful to have you on the show and just speak about this. But you know that gold reserve Honey, you've told a little bit about it. And why do you believe those Tupelo trees and now I think it's this one is this one the one that's too sour wood. And this is number 1512 of 3000 bottles. So you enter it even has a signature on it folks on the side it says Ted, you only bottled 3000 bottles of this,
Ted Dennard
We put 3000 on there because we thought we were going to do more this year, what it turned out, we only got three and one half barrels, which is a 55 gallon, you know food grade barrel. And you we would have needed six to make 3000 bottles. So we really are only going to have 1700 of these this year because it just out of 158 barrels a honey, we are only those three and a half made the cut the grade where we could I could feel good about selling it as a gold reserve.
Greg Voisen
And how many people are working in your honey business today that are helping you package on this, put it all together and get it out to the world?
Ted Dennard
Yeah, so it always blows me away. It's like really that many people work here. We have 50 people a little over 50 people that work in this warehouse, where we have our offices where you do all the stuff that our businesses do sales and accounting and marketing and you know, social media, all that stuff, customer service. But we also bottle all of the honey here. So we have guys bottling honey receiving barrels and shipments and sending off testing food safety people, we've got shipping people but yeah, so 50 Something people here are putting it all together. And then there's another 150 people working at those 14 retail stores that are you know, also we're retailing it and educating people as they come in and they get to
Greg Voisen
about 200 people total between units there at the plant. Correct and what's in the 14 stores. So you know, it's quite a bit you know, it's a big business. And I want to thank you for doing that. Because number one, you're helping the economy you're helping people make a living, you're doing it the right way you're giving back through the because project. Now what is in the future before we actually got on the air you were talking about the potential of someone maybe doing some work on Amazon or representing your products on Amazon. But what's the future for the business, the online business look like? And are there any new products that are coming out that you're developing that? I mean, heck, I've never seen anyone develop as many honey based products as you but you know, who knows, you might have some more up your sleeve.
Ted Dennard
Oh, we have a lot man. There's a good attorney around this list. On this board. We're actually working to try and focus in on fewer products so we're not coming out with so many. But ultimately the vision is our vision right as a healthy world where bees don't need saving, right that's the world that we see in the future that we want to try and initiate and our mission is selling these products to help us you know help save the bees help our efforts to save the bees so that's the end goal and there's lots of products and services that will roll up underneath that in the next hopefully decades. But right on right now we're coming there's a honey coffee a honey roasted coffee. Again, we partnered with Charleston coffee roaster and we've he's created this real proprietary way of roasting coffee with honey
Greg Voisen
That sounds good. It is really good coffee and
Ted Dennard
again same story from cooperative farmers that benefit I mean it's all really good high mountain stuff
Greg Voisen
too bad you can infuse matcha tea with honey because that is my favorite and you know it's one of those things where you either put the honey in the tea and I think probably of all the tea drinkers which I am I don't drink coffee. That's probably why my love for tea because I've always ever only sweetened it with that and it is matcha tea and it is always sweetened with honey.
Ted Dennard
Awesome. So we've got Yeah, honey roasted coffee. We have actually a honey barbecue sauce. Three different versions.
Greg Voisen
That's two honey pots are
Ted Dennard
honey pots off. We have a honey hot sauce. We have a hot honey which is this habanero oil infused honey. That's all honey that the hot sauce is half honey with vinegar and Scotsman and pepper mash and all kinds of stuff. Um, but yeah, the main things right now are the honey roasted coffee in this in these honey barbecue sauces that are coming out
Greg Voisen
well you're quite inventive and you're quite creative and I want to say for my listeners, honey hot sauce, I had never seen it until I went by his booth. That was the first time I saw honey hot sauce. Now I haven't tried it yet, but I will. And as I said also this whipped honey was cinnamon, he has found different ways to do that. And he also sells honeycomb. So if you go on the website, you can buy honeycomb. And for those of you who are kind of more purist, you would cut off a piece of that. What I've found from honeycomb is it's a little more waxy especially in how you're using it any tricks there.
Ted Dennard
You know, you don't want to put it in your hot tea because it melts the wax and then the wax kind of
Greg Voisen
it ends up on the top.
Ted Dennard
Yeah. But other than that if you eat it with those hot biscuits and fresh breads, and that's an easy way we eat it with apples Believe it or not, and cheese and charcuterie and stuff so a honeycomb really makes all of that better. It's really and then that cinnamon honey, you if you take some slices of apples and dip in that cinnamon, honey, it is so good. And then I also will get a spoon and just get fill the spoon up with that cinnamon honey and then get almonds and just kind of dredge it through the spoon as I'm eat like eaten these almonds. It's like great, trust me. It's a and it's good. So cinnamon is a superfood honey is too so let's
Greg Voisen
talk about it. I mean, doctors will tell you and this is my last question to kind of wrap this up with you. But you know, you're going to talk about the health benefits of honey, we've all you know, over years people set out the health benefits. Can you tell us why honey is a good anti-inflammatory, anti-toxic anti. I gotta say this right. And antibacterial agent. But the thing is, is honey is and I have nothing against it. Maybe I consume a little bit too much sugar, I think for the diabetics out there. But I guess if you're going to consume any sugar, you'd probably be better off consuming it in the form of honey than you would in brown sugar or white sugar. So speak with our listeners about these benefits.
Ted Dennard
Yeah, I love that. All right, so I'll start with the antibacterial part. Well, part of it is an amethyst or bear biologist or anything but the you know, the sugars will actually kill the bacteria because in the same way that salt might. So bacteria really just can't grow in honey, which is which is makes it antibacterial. There's also peroxides and honey, that when it contacts your skin, these natural peroxides are produced. So it makes a perfect wound healer. And I mean, I'm telling you, it's the only thing that's ever been on my kids band aids and my band aids and honey is honey,
Greg Voisen
right. And I have a friend who actually made band aids with honey and them. And he actually marketed them. And they were I don't remember what they were called. But it was like a honey. And I thought he was absolutely crazy. But I still have some of the band aids here. And I use them. And it's amazing how quickly it healed the wound.
Ted Dennard
Yeah, yeah, you don't scar Eric go on and on. But yeah, so honey is great for antibacterial properties. And then both for the anti-inflammatory and the antioxidant parts is the enzymes in the honey and this like the phenolic acids in it. That will inhibit like the inflammatory response. But it also stimulates these anti these inflammatory mediators. So they're going to help both prevent it. And then also if it happens, if you already have inflammation, it'll help mitigate it so that it's really good for inflammation and antioxidant activity is kind of similar. That though enzymes and phenolic acid are going to help protect the cells from damage due to their environmental damage and oxidative stresses and things like that. That can end up leading to cancer and other diseases. So you know, they beekeepers are supposed to live I've heard you know, they live longer than any other profession. And they attribute that to the raw honey and pollens and stuff that beekeepers consume. A lot of times the beekeepers you know they strike they purify and clean up the honey for their customer but they eat all the other stuff. So they're getting like the honey Coban they're getting their real raw, honey interesting, filled with enzymes. And let me add this other thing is that the bees are so studied, you know, and they're learning stuff all the time. But not that long ago, maybe 10 years ago, they've done some studies and found that in the little honey stomach where bees carry nectar, it's not their digestive stone, pre stomach. There's 14, probiotic bacteria that can live for a while in nectar and fresh honey, they help stop the nectar from fermenting. But they had to come up with names for these new bacteria. But those might be really good for gut health, perhaps, you know, this is something new, but fresh honey could be better for you than honey that's been around for, you know, six months or something. I think after two months, the sugars and stuff even in these back to the sugar resistant bacteria, and the bacteria ended up dying off.
Greg Voisen
You know, it's always interesting to speak with somebody who's has the knowledge that you do as a beekeeper. And I think for all my listeners, you know, go study if you need to, the medicinal effects. So Honey, honey has been around forever and ever and ever. I've watched documentaries about people in various places who were, you know, when all else failed the they at least had honey to sell, I forget the what that video was, and I watched but I remember some older woman up in the area. And the only way she ultimately survived was Burma honeybees. And it was it really is something when you look at eons all the way back to the beginning of time, it seems like people have been harvesting, I wouldn't say it's the oldest crop, but it's gotta be one of the oldest crops. And when I say crop, maybe I'm using the wrong term. But these hives? Well, Ted, it's been an honor actually having you on the show, and you sharing this with our listeners. And again, for my listeners, you know, go to Savannah b.com. That’s where you want to go there, you can access all of the products that we just talked about. And that we showed, including this, the private reserves up there. And all the other products. And Ted anything you want to leave with the listeners before we kind of truncate this interview, I, you know,
Ted Dennard
We wholesale all over the nations in a lot of storage, like your Albertsons has our honeycomb in it in Southern California. It's not, you know, they people don't carry everything but yeah, we have a pretty good little business, wholesale business. So be on the lookout,
Greg Voisen
I'm you're out there, they can get it, they can get at it. I think you told me lazy acres does. Are they carrying it? There's,
Ted Dennard
I don't there's 1000s of them. I'm not sure it's like the acres out. But if I said you
Greg Voisen
know what, if you can't get it, and you know, all you got to do is go to Savannah b.com and order it and they'll ship it to you. Right. And I will say their shipping is very quick. They may have it quite as fast as Amazon but it's quick. Definitely, definitely go to the website. And he said shortly he'll be back again on Amazon through seller. So but for now just go to Savannah b.com And order yourself some and test it out. See what you think because this Learn
Ted Dennard
I will so I believe you with this that through all this business I was a religion major and so I didn't study business come along or anything. And I see business maybe a little differently, but the beat so I see a beehive business model as one where everybody wins, you know, so in the same way that a beehive operates. And so I think if your customer wins, and you as the business win, and your employees win and the environment wins, and then it's going to be sustainable and successful, maybe more so than then some that are that are not like mutually beneficial like a beehive bees of any of our 100 and some million years and so they basically invented sustainability through partner with partnering with the flowering plant. So I would just encourage everybody to try and you know, live like the bees do.
Greg Voisen
Well, you know, that background in studying religion and spirituality, you know, my master's degree is in spiritual psychology and I can tell that about you. You know, being a compassionate person. And being a person that loves what you do, I can tell that. And again, what happens is if you can live in harmony, which is what you're basically doing, you know, the whole bee population, if you really look at how they work, and if you've ever seen documentaries, they really work in harmony to get the honeycomb crew needed, and it is an amazing thing, isn't it?
Ted Dennard
There's a you know, Pliny the Elder, we quote this that sometimes by the nature in her entirety is nowhere more seen than in her smallest creatures. And I feel like these bees are like windows and the whole world of nature. Yeah, for me they
Greg Voisen
They definitely are and Savannah bee is helping keep that alive. Go support Savannah bee go the bee cause and Ted, Blessings to you. Thank you, man for being on your show in spending some time with me. I really appreciate your staff and us sending out the product. And thank you for your donation and compassionate communications as well. I'm going to reciprocate to Savannah B.
Ted Dennard
All right. Hey, you're awesome. Very excited. Great speaking with you and I hope we'll see you again soon.
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Inside Personal Growth with Greg Voisen · Podcast 1008: Reinventing Resilience with Paul ThallnerMy guest for this episode is an organizational development expert, strategic advisor, executive coach, facilitator, and author Paul Thallner. Featured today as well is his book entitled Reinventing Resilience: How Organizations Move Beyond Setbacks to Grow Through Challenges.
Paul has extensive experience working with executive teams to identify and implement strategic change initiatives and has led major culture integrations, transformations, and workplace analysis projects. Currently, he is a Principal at Daggerwing Group, a global organizational change consultancy whose Fortune 500 clients hire the firm to “do change right the first time.”
With all his skills and expertise, Paul also has came up with a book entitled Reinventing Resilience: How Organizations Move Beyond Setbacks to Grow Through Challenges. The book speaks to team leaders, managers, and executives in the corporate, nonprofit, or government sectors who want rethink resilience in order to create stronger organizations. It provides a deep dive into a new resilience model with step-by-step guidance for organizations to build resilience, create great work cultures, and become magnetic employers of choice for all.
If you’re interested and want to learn more, you may click here to visit the book website and/or Paul’s company website.
I hope you enjoy my engaging interview with Paul Thallner. Happy listening!
You may also refer to the transcripts below for the full transciption (not edited) of the interview.
Interview Transcipt -Not EditedEmailDownloadNew TabGreg Voisen
Well, welcome back to Inside Personal Growth. We have joining us from give me the city call Philadelphia, Philadelphia, PA, and Paul Thallner. And he has a brand new book out called Reinventing Resilience and we get it right there. And the subtitle is How Organizations Move Beyond Setback to Grow through Challenges. I think where you're going to learn just as much as the book is by going to his website, reinventingresilience.com, I highly recommend there, you're going to find his blog, him talking about the framework of this book, his ability to speak his bio, and many other things that I think you'll find benefit. So again, it's reinventingresilience.com. And I'm gonna let the listeners know a tad bit about you. Paul is the author of this book. He's the principal at Daggerwing group, a global organization, change consultancy firm, hired by Fortune 500 clients to do change the right first time. Paul Thallner began his career, mobilizing change at scale and public education sector. He has extensive experience working with executive teams to identify and implement strategic change initiatives. toddler has also led major cultural integration transformation and workplace analysis projects. Partner at great place at work and his own consultancy high peaks group. Again, here is the book. And we're going to be talking with him today about this book. And, you know, Paul, thanks for being on because there's such a challenge today in the workplace. I mean, you give some statistics in the book, which are just almost frightening when you think about it. I'm one of them. The you said that this professor at Stanford, Jeff D. Jeffrey, Pfeiffer Pfeffer, yeah, yeah, the workplace stress is the fifth leading cause of death in the US. I just think that's just like, crazy when you go to farming. Yeah, it's alarming it is some of the statistics you give in the book are quite alarming. And so that's a reason for my listeners right now. And you're listening. Definitely take a strong listen to this. If you're running an organization, you've got employees, and they're having a hard time coping. Paul has ways to help you through that. So you start the introduction of the book with a story of you hiking the Grand Canyon, talk about coping, when you find yourself frozen in a panic attack, believe me, I used to get panic attacks regularly myself, so I know how debilitating they can be. To the point where the guy had to kind of take your hand and help you down and say, Paul, it's gonna be alright, you're gonna get through this. Can you convey the story to listeners? And what does this has to do with resilience?
Paul Thallner
Yeah, sure. Yeah, I'm forever indebted to Adam, my guide. So this was 2017. And I was a couple of days into a weeklong hike in the Grand Canyon, it was part of a leadership development program that I was participating in. And at that time, I was still thinking about my brother in law, who had recently died in a paragliding accident. So I was, my mind was very heavy, with thoughts of how unfair and capricious the world was. And it was really just kind of, to say I was not in a great place would be a bit of an understatement. But at the moment of the panic attack, what was going on is I was walking along this very narrow trail, and to my left was 600 foot drop off, like just inches off the trail. And suddenly, it struck me that even though I was in this vast, beautiful, gorgeous landscape, that it suddenly turned really grim in my head about like, actually, this landscape is terrifying and scary and doesn't care whether I fall into this hole or not, it really doesn't, you know, it was overwhelming, to say the least. So what happened, you know, long story short, is that I did not only survive, uh, Adam, my God did help me shuffle through the path and make it through. But I actually grew and evolved as a result of that experience. And later, I made the connection that many businesses are like hikers on this path, too. They get stuck sometimes. And they have to find their way. Find a way not only to survive those challenges but grow and thrive because of them.
Greg Voisen
Yeah, it is. It was a great analogy, actually, the great way to open a book up especially, I've been to the Grand Canyon. And I've been maybe to that same spot. You know, where you're kind of going down the canyon and you're looking off to the side and you're going man this a long way down. Fortunately for, for me, I don't have fear of heights. But other things used to be debilitating as I said to you and I, and I did have a long period about a panic attacks. And I ended up getting biofeedback to actually get that corrected in it. And it worked. Because I can actually see what my brainwaves are doing. But it is interesting for people in the workplace, if you were to put them on these machines that actually look at the brainwaves, you would see probably the amounts of stress that they're under. And you state that resilience is the courage and confidence to grow through challenges. And you speak with us about the internal and external environments that make up this resilience model that you've developed. Sure, yeah.
Paul Thallner
So my hypothesis for the book really was that you know that the great advice we hear for people to build their individual resilience also applies at scale to organizations. So I thought, well, you know, we're getting lots of information out there in the world, especially during COVID, about how to build our own individual resilience, but who's talking about resilient organizations. So I wanted to figure that out. And what I discovered was resilience does scale to the team and organization and to even the country level. So what makes people resilient individual people resilient is their, you know, an awareness of all of the internal and external forces that are impacting them, and, but also the belief that those factors won't stop them. organizations do the same thing. They take an action based on internal aspects like past experience, or resources, talent or intellectual property, things like that. And they also take action based on the external factors that are impacting them, like competition, market dynamics, emerging technology, and so forth. But what makes organizations resilient is that they don't automatically look at all those forces as potentially defeating, they actually believe that they can thrive, despite those challenges.
Greg Voisen
Yeah, it is interesting how, you know, you have these factors that make this up. And, you know, I said a second ago, you know, can this professor be right, that it's the leading cause of death, that the workplace stress, you know, again, resilience is the ability to learn how to cope with that, but that the status quo within an organization is not. It's not sustainable for healthy workplaces, you can't just keep going status quo status quo. What recommendations do you have for upper level management executives, and people in the organization that are dealing with this that are listening to the podcast to change what is called, this call it the disease in the workplace? Because it is really, it's an uneasiness that people have trying to learn how to cope with it, because they're given either so much work to do, or in too little time to get it done. So when you look at the constraining factors that actually make up this stress, there's external and internal factors plus they're having to deal with their own crap at home. That's right. No, it's not just what's going on at work. It's everything, that pandemic really exacerbated it, because now they were dealing with it at home at home at home, because that's where they're working from.
Paul Thallner
No doubt. Yeah, I mean, 100%, right. So I think, regardless of, I mean, Jeffrey Pfeffer statistic is very alarming. And you know, even if it's half true, it's still alarming, right? It's incredible that workplace stress rates among the most, you know, toxic things that we can do to people yet we go to work every day, we've continued to create businesses and companies that sort of contribute to this workplace stress. And we know that workers are just tired, right? There's tired, they're stressed out. And there are, you know, you know, it's so strongly part of our workplace kind of paradigm, that even the World Health Organization, cites workplace stress as a global epidemic, costing billions of dollars in GE GDP in countries all over the place. So also, I make a point in my book, that it's really not a new problem. workplace stress is something that even in the 1800s people were thinking about, you know, but the, the thing to remember is that it can be solved, right? So there's a famous quote by an organizational development legend, recent legendary researcher named Ed Deming, who said, organizations are perfectly designed to get the results they're getting right now. So if you want different results, you need to do a different organizational design. So right now, for example, a dagger one group where I work, you know, we work with executives in this area to help them to be super intentional about how they design their workplaces and their workplace cultures. So that they, that they're just as intentional about that as they are about their products and services. And, you know, so evaluating your org design, and to figure out how it's contributing to workplace stress, which then of course, cascades down to workplace or, you know, lost revenue, productivity and things like that, that's a critical first step is, is really just understanding where the organization, or how the organization is designed to create the kind of stress we want to eliminate?
Greg Voisen
Well, and I think what people forget is our health care costs, you know, the cost of actually dealing with stress, through psychological visits, medications, that people may be taking, to learn to cope, is extremely expensive. And we've actually seen, those numbers go up dramatically, with all these health care providers. And now they're all trying to find ways to help people through apps and other ways so that it can be much more cost effective. But what we find is probably one of the best things that can help for that, as you know, is our own practices and community being in a community because loneliness, I think, what the pandemic did really quite an exacerbated it. Was this world of kind of loneliness, no, look at us all, we all now can get on a zoom call, and you can be across the other end of the world. But that doesn't mean we're making a connection. And you know, you worked with Olivia Rowan. She's a publisher of ski area management magazine, and you cite lots of your clients stories in here. And I really appreciate that because it kind of shows people what's going on and you start a discussion about the feelings of ohm are overwhelmed with people are feeling. And you start an online course, for that industry. Right? What do you learn from your survey? Because you surveyed 1100 people on LinkedIn as well. And what did you learn by setting up this course for the scary management magazine?
Paul Thallner
Yeah, the course was really important. And it actually emerged out of this industry wide dialogue that we started, as you know, in the pandemic, so what was happening was, you know, how, as individuals, we were facing this existential threat, right, so we've got this pandemic, you know, we're working from home, what's really going to happen, you know, there's no future is not guaranteed, that happened at scale in the ski industry. Because if you remember, all the shutdowns started happening right at the beginning of the 2020 ski season, and all of these operators needed to figure out what to do, and they didn't, and what the smart, smartest thing they ever did was like, not assume they could solve it alone. So we brought together all of the industry, general managers from scarers, around the country, you know, hundreds and hundreds of them. But we also opened it up to anyone who worked at those organizations who wanted to listen in. And the result was a couple of learnings. One is that it is certainly possible to bring an entire industry together to reflect on what needs to happen and how to weather a storm, you know, so to speak. But it's also the other lesson is that when that does happen, powerful things emerge, right? So like an online course, where everybody committed to developing their own team and organizational resilience at scale, they, you know, whereas a lot of times, organizational culture was sort of an afterthought in that industry. But it, it kind of flattened out the hierarchy of the industry, so that everybody had a seat at the table, everybody had a voice, everybody could see their leaders, as vulnerable human beings who are thinking about this stuff and worried about this stuff on their behalf. And I think it was a galvanizing moment for the industry, for leaders to really express their confidence in the future, and also their worries and their fears going forward. So I think many resorts, were able to keep a lot of their seasonal workers as a result of that of those industry, huddles, we call them and the course etc., that they're able to offer something concrete and productive to their workers. And it saved a lot of a lot of money for them to try and rehire new people or, you know, maybe close because they couldn't have enough people at the at the resorts.
Greg Voisen
Yeah, it was costly in many areas. Number one, I'm sure we had to dig into cash reserves to just townspeople. Secondly, it was costly because I'm sure they had to let a lot of people go even in spite of it because of the pandemic and people weren't out skiing people weren't moving pretty anywhere much at all. Really. I mean, look at the airline industry, that'd be another one that you could have gone and done this course. And
Paul Thallner
The funny thing was during the pandemic, people retreated to the mountains and so a lot of these resorts were overwhelmed with visitors. And the staff wasn't prepared, they weren't sure what to do they need their limbs. So this, this was one way to help
Greg Voisen
solve that. So they were still skiing, but just with masks on.
Paul Thallner
Right? Right, which is, if you've ever tried it, not easy, no, it
Greg Voisen
wouldn't be that much fun either. So, if you were to become more resilient Paul, and you've identified the qualities that will help us become more resilient, I think this is an important part of the book, tell the listeners, what these qualities war are, and how adopting them can really help us.
Paul Thallner
Absolutely. So there are six, and these apply to individuals as well as organizations, and one is believing in one's own ability, which involves figuring out what that is, and understanding what your abilities are, and believing in them. And trusting yourself. Number two is seeing the context, clearly and unflinchingly. And what that means is really just looking around you and having a an accurate and realistic view of what you're seeing, as opposed to just seeing what you want to see or what you wish to be true. Really seeing the context for what it truly is. Third is understanding one's own fears and triggers. So anyone who has studied emotional intelligence understands this idea that, you know, we have this fight or flight response all the time, or we kind of exist with this feature, that we can be triggered by certain things. And just being aware of what those are for us, for us, as individuals and for our organizations is really important to strengthen resilience. Fourth is accepting the situation for what it is, and this is probably one of the hardest things any individual can do. And what an organization can do as well. Because when things are really terrible, we want to avoid it, or we want to kind of create a different story. But accepting the situation for what it truly is, is really one of the one of the most important steps you can take to really becoming more resilient because it creates that level of awareness and understanding and just kind of like you're grounded in in what's really true. And then lastly, quickly, just you know, the ability to choose from a reasonable set of possibilities is a key feature to, instead of like dreaming up a million things that could never possibly happen as your options really zeroing in on the things that are actually doable, possible, maybe they're a stretch, maybe they're hard, maybe it is a steep, uphill climb, but they are possibilities that you can do. And choosing from those is really important. And then lastly, resources, right understanding that, especially in times of peak challenge, we tend to forget our resources, we tend to forget what we have at our disposal to use. So the ability to access those resources, whether it's me as an individual, or a team or company, is really, really important to sort of see our way through very difficult times.
Greg Voisen
Yeah, and these are good qualities, I mean, what you just pointed out, it's, it's, it's an evolution. In other words, it's a way to find and adapt and adapt to what's going on. And, you know, I think people that are flexible, and can move around, and can kind of connect the dots and think in a different way, whether it's emotionally, physically, whatever it is that you've got to do. That's how you survive. That's how you get through something is through that ability to be flexible. And I'm going to use the term flexible because it is important. And you state that the deficit thinking is limited. And if all we do is close this gap between what's broken and what's normal. There's no forward progress. And I would agree with you, you know, that is just a problem. And I think that has been the status quo, right? And this leads to what's wrong thinking? Right? It is definitely deficit thinking and self-limiting thinking that will lead to wrong thinking. And how do we break the cycle by referring to what you call this gap closing cycle, it's a model that you've created in the book. And again, I'll hold the book up for listeners, we're gonna have a link to Amazon, go get a copy of the book. He's also got some very cool QR codes at the end of each chapter that go to a video. And I want to point that out because some people are audio learners, right? That's why podcasts do so well. Some people like to read, other people like to watch. If you want to watch there's a video, you can go watch the videos that he's got at the back of every one of these chapters along with the recap of the chapter. He calls them chapter summaries, which is very well done, Paul says
Paul Thallner
thanks. Yeah, so gap closing cycles are a really important aspect of resilience. So when we, what they are is gap closing cycles are what we end up with when we apply conventional definition of resilience, right? So we get knocked down, we get back up, and poof, we're resilient, right? Well, that definition doesn't, as you said, take into account this, the fact that growth happens as a result of a challenge. So bouncing back really is just getting back to where you started, not necessarily advancing. So we can break this cycle by building resilience capacity before we need it. So it's kind of too late to build resilience when you're, you know, flat on your face after being knocked down. So I encourage leaders to use my model to help their teams and organizations practice the essential skills like being keenly aware of the business environment or the organizational environment that they operate in, and also building a strong belief that they do have the capacity to overcome challenges.
Greg Voisen
And I think that's a really important point, Mr. Make, Paul and that is the belief that you have a strong belief that you can adjust to this that you can become more resilient. Your model is excellent. And I and I really like the stories that you tell I really liked this one because I'm an avid cyclist. And you there's this great analogy, you speak about the Dutch headwinds, cycling championship race. I had no idea what the hell it was. But we're writers are facing headwinds, which is resilience. I mean, it actually it's resistance, not resilience. I mean, they're being resisted, because I've written many times into headwinds, and it slows you down immensely. And they're all on the single speed bikes. So for all of you guys who have never written a single speed bike, like for you to get on a single speed bike in a windstorm, and see how you do because that's basically almost what he's saying. You tell the story and how this relates becoming more resilient, because you're it's a great story.
Paul Thallner
Yeah, so the Dutch headwind cycling championships are really a unique thing. It happens at the North northern border of Holland along the North Sea. There's a storm barrier that was created to keep the country from flooding. And this race only happens when there's a severe storm predicted. So they don't know when it's going to happen or where you know the date but they have to they, they send out the call to all the interested cyclists. They have a rack crazy people, all the Yeah. All the people. So they have this rack of city commuter bikes, right? It's a single speed. One break city bikes that Dutch people typically use in the in town, to commute. And then they have a time trial. Basically, they start the clock, you go as fast as you can, it's about eight miles. And you, you know, the fastest time across this dorm barrier wins. Now, this race only happens when the headwinds are 40 miles an hour or greater. And it's just like, and people actually sign up for this on purpose and do it. Like for real? Like they want to do it?
Greg Voisen
I think they limited to 60s, which he said, I think so
Paul Thallner
well. Otherwise, it would take all day. Right? So you know, it'd be amazing. So it is it's a fascinating thing and an amazing metaphor for resilience, because in the way this ice, the way I see this race was being related to resilience is that, you know, forward momentum on a bike when it's calm outside means you have wind resistance, right? So you're always going to have, you know, wind in your face. And that's actually a good thing. Because it signals that you're moving forwards, right? So we should actually, you know, appreciate the fact that we have a little bit of wind in our face when it does happen. So honestly, what happens is a lot of organizations is we complain about headwinds a lot, you know, we and we don't recognize it, we've earned the headwinds by actually moving forward. Secondly, sometimes the wind gets really, really strong, you know, and we, and we have to just admit that we cannot control the wind. But we have to keep going anyway. So how do you do that? So in cycling, what you can do, the thing you can do is keep traveling.
Greg Voisen
Yeah, draft or someone to draft off, they're
Paul Thallner
lucky enough to tuck down into a more aerodynamic position. Those are the things you can do. And that's the reality of the situation that I talk about all the time. It's like, you are on the bike, and you're when you're in an organization, you are actually on the bike. So the things you can actually do are to tuck down like, you know, hopping into a car is not part of the race, so that's not an option. And then the third thing is it's really not about just simply getting through it. It's really about what you learn about yourself along the way, you know, because everybody you know, quote, unquote, finished the race, it doesn't matter who finishes first, but everybody talks about the fact that they've done it. And it's important that we celebrate and focus on the learning that we have as a result of these challenges, and not just the outcomes. And I think that's a lesson for individuals and companies along the way.
Greg Voisen
Well, if you ever watched any of those time trials, you know, I guess the whole the old story of the tortoise and the hare might actually pop up. Because, you know, they, if you're in a peloton, and you see how they strategically move around, you get the idea, you understand that, hey, we're gonna put our strong guys out last. And they're going to ride and save their energy, right? And it's all about energy management. And resilience is about energy management, because if you burn yourself out too quick, you're never going to finish that race. And so that isn't a very important factor. And you mentioned resilience can feel lonely, but that we're all experiencing the challenge and struggles that it brings. You've studied resilience at scale. And that's what this book is about. And you speak about some of the common observations that you made about organizations. And what would you tell the listeners about your studies? How an organization can basically get through this? And what are some of your common observations?
Paul Thallner
Yeah, well, first of all, yes, loneliness is definitely a huge problem, you know, for remote workers, for the elderly, for lots of people in our society. Leaders, of course, experience loneliness at work. But it goes back to Design, right? So we've designed systems that create loneliness and the stress that comes along with it. And I think, resilient organizations, that resilient organizations create really good cultures where people feel a strong sense of belonging, even if they're not physically together every day. Right. So they do this by having clearly defined ways of working, a strategy that everybody can contribute to, and well-articulated values. And also very clear accountabilities, these are, these are some very easy things, not easy, but these are very simple things, too, that organizations can work on. And we've been doing a lot of this work at dagger wing as a result of all of this new ways of work that we're experiencing. So many of our clients are really thoughtful about working about creating a great workplace, even though so much of what they're doing is untested at the moment, and somewhat experimental. So the best and most resilient organizations from what I've observed, is the ones that have a mindset where change is done with people and not to people.
Greg Voisen
That is the we instead of the meet me, or the eye. And I think in all of this work, you have to be looking at the Wii and who you're serving, which is the greater good for the organization. You know, you've got this resilience model in the book, and anybody wants to go look at it, but you also can go to his website, you mentioned that the resilience monitor, there's two forces joined together staunch realism and collective efficacy, efficacy, I'm going to say that right? are at the center of organizational resilience. Can you speak with us about the two forces, these two forces in particular, because they're pretty much what make up a lot of the model? are the engines of resilience and outputs of courage? Because those are the two outputs. It's like, okay, and have courage and confidence, right? Speak with our listeners, because those two elements of your model are really the key core points.
Paul Thallner
They are Yeah, they sort of form the where the energy comes from, right. So staunch realism is the ability to be attuned to one's environment as it really is. And we talked a little bit about this already, but not a version of the environment that you wish it to be. Right. And I think this, this happens at scale, like a lot of leadership teams, you know, kind of can convince themselves of a different truth, as opposed to the real, really what's going on sometimes. And it takes a lot of work for an organization to be really, really honest with itself, about how it sees the forces that are acting on it, you know, lots of debate, lots of discussion. And it's not always easy, but it's critical if an organization wants to be prepared for that next gust of headwind. Similarly, organizations have to meet or they have to have an inherent belief that no matter what happens, they have the ability to make it through. Make it through the other side of a challenge. This isn't always easy, either obviously. So I tell a number of stories in my book about companies that really did fail because they couldn't overcome this. These competitive pressures. They sort of relented to this belief that they couldn't make it like Blockbuster, Kodak and many others. You know, they just decided at some point collectively, maybe not. Maybe they didn't have a vote. or say it out loud. But at some point, they believed that they couldn't make it. So they did not have that self-belief that resilient organizations do have. But so when organizations do build strong collective efficacy and staunch realism, as you pointed out, the outputs are courage and confidence. So in with those outputs organizations have, they've reinvented resilience actually, instead of it being something that they only think about when things go bad. They are thinking about it as a source of competitive advantage for the organization.
Greg Voisen
Yeah, it's so important that you, I mean, for all my listeners, go get the book right here, it is easy to get on Amazon, and check out the model and go to the website, check out the model there as well check out what he's speaking about. Because at the core, it is courage and confidence. Right. And when people lose that courage and confidence, that's basically like you said, well, you know, you mentioned some of the companies that that folded blockbuster, you know, Polaroid people like that. And it's so important to know what the forces are that actually create that, right. And, you know, the wisdom advice in the book is wonderful. And it's going to help any organization interested in changing what I'm going to call the organization itself or the culture by helping to change the individuals in the organization to become more resilient. It always starts with the individuals, Paul, and anybody working on culture understands that what three takeaways would you like to leave the listeners with that could help them thrive more during challenging times? Because they're all faced with challenging times, no matter what it's gonna happen. It may not be right now. But you know, I'm trying to remember the author, but when you when you she was on the show here, her book was seeing around the corners, right. And you have to kind of be forecasting, looking for events that potentially could Sideswipe you. Right. And you need to be preparing the organization, the individuals in the organization, and the operations of the organization to meet those potential. Let's just call them Attacks, Threats, come your way. And so what advice would you give people who are maybe aren't, you know, experiencing it right now, but could experience it to become more resilient?
Paul Thallner
Yeah, I would say you will. Eventually, all organizations will experience some form of setback that they're not necessarily anticipating, you know, it's easier, it's much easier to kind of prepare for things you are pretty sure going to happen. But no one no one predicted a pandemic, right. So I think the there's a lot of work to be done, ensuring organizations can build up their resilience for that next gust of headwind, as I call it, that they can't predict. But so in terms of takeaways, I think a couple things come to mind. You know, my surname is Tollner. And I recently found actually, through doing this book, found out that it's an old time occupation in Austria. A Tollner was a guide that actually helped people navigate from one valley over a mountain pass into the next fertile valley. And I was like, well, that's ironic. That's what I do for a living. But what I would tell everybody to do and I think this is the you know, my guidance advice for everyone is to for everybody listening is to be a Tollner yourself, right? So be a guide that helps other people, your team's your organization's really learn whatever lessons they need to learn in those valleys in those dark moments in those challenging times. So that they can climb over that mountain pass into the next fertile valley. That would be so my wish for everyone is that you become a Tollner yourself. But then also, I'd love to invite listeners to kind of join me as I collect stories of organizational resilience. The book is just the starting point, I'd love to continue to create a conversation around what works in organization what's what makes them and keeps them resilient. And also field test some solutions with folks, you know, just to see if there's a group of folks who wanted to, wants to kick the tires on a few ideas that I have to really spark thinking in terms of in in organization. So at reinventing resilience.com If people sign up for the newsletter, I'll certainly reach back out and invite people to contribute their stories and also maybe even test some of these learning materials that I'm that I'm creating for free just to see if we can get them ready for other organizations that need the help.
Greg Voisen
It's a great opportunity for all my listeners. So please take Paul up on that. And you know, I did an interview not that long ago about experiential intelligence. You know, we talk about emotional intelligence a lot. But the reality when these things face you, how you navigate through them, as Paul was just saying, is by learning from the experience, so it's really, you know, experiential intelligence that you're forming, and creating, and continuing to do that, and you find the ones that survive, are the ones that record and document that experience or intelligence and then share it,
Paul Thallner
and remember it when, and remember it when there's a peak challenge, right? So like, accessing it,
Greg Voisen
right? And accessing it, both internally, from intelligence. But a lot of times, people need to be reminded, they need to find a way to actually access this data. And I would say that, you know, Paul has done a wonderful job of giving you tools, right, you've got all these videos that people can watch, you've got this ability to take the book on to look at the model, I encourage you to go sign up for his newsletter, do all of those things. Even now, when you might not be threatened by too much. And you're gonna you're saying hey, look, our workplace stress, there isn't any. It always helps to have some arsenal of what I'm going to call tools to make it available to you. And your model just in itself. If somebody just studies the model is a great tool. So thank you for being on inside personal growth and sharing some of your wisdom. And again, for my listeners, I'll hold this book up one last time reinventing resilience. Paul Tollner is who you want to go, we're going to put a link to Amazon. And you're going to go to reinventing resilience.com. And do use the QR codes in the back of the book because they are great little interviews and snippets. They ran for about two minutes, some of them, some of them a little less. They're all different, but it's a great way for you to learn from the book as well. Paul, thanks for being on Inside Personal Growth and sharing your experiences. We appreciate having you.
Paul Thallner
Thanks so much, Greg. Appreciate it.
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Inside Personal Growth with Greg Voisen · Podcast 1007: Under The Orange Blossoms with Cindy BenezraJoining me this episode is author/speaker Cindy Benezra featuring her book Under The Orange Blossoms: An Inspirational Story of Bravery and Strength.
Cindy is an active philanthropist whose mission is to bring awareness to the effects of sexual abuse. She supports foundations and organizations that locally and globally fight sexual abuse and contribute to our broad community. Aside from this, she is the co-owner, along with her eldest daughter, of Elite Events which is an event planning and design team.
Meanwhile, as an author and speaker, Cindy’s passion, brought by her own experiences, is to remove the stigma and uncomfortableness around the subject of sexual abuse through awareness and discussion. Thus, she wrote Under The Orange Blossoms. It’s a memoir on her childhood sexual abuse to provide hope and inspiration to others.
If you’re interested and want to learn more about Cindy, you may click here to visit her website. You may also visit her Youtube channel and watch her inspiring videos/talks by clicking this link.
I hope you enjoy my engaging interview with Cindy Benezra. Happy listening!
You may also refer to the transcripts below for the full transciption (not edited) of the interview.
Interview Transcipt -Not EditedEmailDownloadNew TabGreg Voisen
Well, welcome back to Inside Personal Growth. This is Greg Voisen, the host of Inside Personal Growth. And joining me from Seattle, Washington. And Cindy, I don't want to get your last name wrong, but I do want to hold up the back. It's under the blossom. And we have Cindy Benezra. Am I saying it right? Cindy? Benezra. So this is the book, this is what we're going to be talking about today. And I would, we'll put a link in the blog. So you can go to Amazon and get a copy of the book that is beautifully written, Sandy, wonderful job that you did writing this book. And I'm going to let the listeners know a tad bit about you. But it's really going to be revealed because the book is a memoir, in, in, in, in, in, in a sense, it really is. But it's also a way to help people that are dealing with trauma and learn ways that they can cope. And in the back, you actually have some techniques that you provide a to the listeners. And, you know, this is around sexual abuse, this program that we're going to be talking about that she incurred when she was very young. She said at times the journey of life is felt unbelievably Rocky. And she found strength, healing and hope admits to some of the darkest corners of life. As I said, there'll be some tools and resources. And for everybody out there go to cindytalks.com. That's cindytalks.com. There, you can actually watch some very, very interesting videos, with the interviews with her family, her husband, and actually with her, her father. And these are, these are very touching, they really are. And Cindy, as I was watching them this morning with your father, I was noticing that during the sessions with the videos, and it's very brave of you. He didn't actually much open up his eyes. And it was almost like he was ashamed because I was watching his body language in the chair even though he's 84. But it was really interesting. And so in the book, you reveal your story. As we said, of survival of an age trying to escape this post traumatic stress you suffered your father's hands. Your story is obviously filled with pain and suffering. But there's also filled with joy as well along the way. What do you want the readers to know about sexual abuse and, and how you learn to cope and overcome such abuse?
Cindy Benezra
Well, I want to start off with that. So I didn't, I didn't grow up in this country I happen to live at the time when I discovered that I had been sexually abused. I was living in Spain and not being able to speak the language or read Spanish, I had to find ways to move past my trauma. And I didn't even know what was going on. So what I learned. So I kind of created found ways to love myself again, I found healing tools that suited myself, I guess you could say, to feel alive again. And in my book, I describe a lot more about what those tools are. And I don't know how much time because I could go on for an entire day. Just thought
Greg Voisen
Well, you know, this happened between the ages of five and 10. Right. So you weren't you were kind of repressed it was I mean, I'm not saying that the memories of all this wasn't there. But you know, we'll talk about it you're dreaming is really quite interesting. You know, the at times you call them nightmares. Right? But, you know, you mentioned in chapter one of the book and people will probably want to know you know why orange blossoms why orange orchards that it helped to trigger happy endorphins and you so we're talking about a way you learned to cope with what was going on with you. And eating an orange was an escape. And I remember this in particular, you know, because you're talking about not only how you appealed it, but kind of how the orange was a little bit sticky in there. And you mentioned that you frequently thought about jumping out of your bedroom window from the fifth floor. What did you Believe kept you from such a fate that really could have ended your life?
Cindy Benezra
Um, I believe for the first part of that I just to go back to answer one part of your question there about the orange blossoms, and why the orange blossoms and when I would run away or I would feel stuck or basically stuck, after my father beat me or I was sexually molested, I would get on my bicycle and ride as hard as I can. Um, I lived in rural Arizona at that time, and right as hard as I could, it was like a physical release and then go into the orange, the orange orchids, and in there, I would be able to find something that was beautiful that was in nature. And in nature, I was able to trust nature more than I did trusted humans. Humans seem to disappoint me, I could never rely on them. And it smelt great, they produce beautiful fruit, the orange blossoms or the orange trees would grow in the mud. And I could look down and think like, Okay, I'm living in the mud. I'm just like this tree. And so it was almost in a sense, like a role model for me, because I couldn't find one around me. And I could also scream into the trees, and no one was going to hit me back. And no one was, it was just myself. So basically, it was a sanctuary. And I was able to find something in that process that was greater than me. And I realized that I was just another human being another soul just searching for a way out when you get stuck. And I just found something greater than me. And I think that was kind of like the beginning of this huge process of being connected to the earth and to something like a higher power. And I think that's what carried me through all the way through, I would be able to learn how to connect back to tasting the bite of the orange smelling the orange blossoms. And that was the thing that I was able just to connect in anywhere I was at any form of trauma that I was going through in life, and we all go through things. But it was something that I was able to recreate in my home, like a sanctuary in my home, my office, wearing citrus, colognes, candles, things like that, that was able, where I was able to reconnect instantly through my sensories. And then through my heart of what kind of saved me it was always kind of like my reminder.
Greg Voisen
I think that you know, for all these interviews have done over 1000 Now and then many about personal growth, and most people that are experiencing some level of trauma. And you have in the back of your book, some techniques are looking for ways and I'm not going to call it an escape, but nature has always been walking in the woods, walking on the beach, finding ways to get out to release, as you said, the endorphins, right, and the Oxy toxins, so the Oxy toxin, so physically to be released, because that's the high that you get from that, that really makes you feel good to help you overcome that pain. You know, when you're in pain, most of the time the hospitals are going to give you morphine to try and DevNet. And in this sense, you're trying to enliven within you through those releases of jogging, mountain climbing, whatever it might be, that you do. And that's why you see these people in extreme sports. I just finished helping write a book, The Precipice of Life. And it was 27 extreme sports people, mostly mountain climbers who had been up Everest and they asked, you know, why do you keep doing that? Why, you know, that's so dangerous. They don't look at it as dangerous. They say, one of the statements that I heard over and over after 27 interviews, is that if you're not facing death, you're not living life. And I thought, wow, how profound meaning they're willing to go all the way to that extreme pain to have this enlivened feeling in their life. You know, and in your case, I hear what you were saying was so poignant about these oranges, orange candles, orange blossoms, all of that, which really kind of took you away from it. And I found that many of those people I interviewed were doing that to prove something to somebody, you know, to go up and conquer a mountain or so on and I'm gonna switch gears here because this is a very sensitive topic, but you were molested by your father from the ages of five to 10. I remember reading a book that the descriptions of him coming over your bed, the situation with your sister, your memories of these events haunted you into nightmares as explained in the book. And you mentioned that you used to daydream and check out again, another way to cope, another coping mechanism. And which you now realize was disassociation, right disassociation from the vent? Does this disassociation allow you to cope with your memories of your father's actions? Or did it I should say, because that seems like what you were doing in the orange blossoms that seems like that the way that you were attempting to cope with the emotional trauma associated with this.
Cindy Benezra
I think in the orange blossoms, I was able to find some kind of sanctuary, some kind of safe place. However, when I recognized that I had because I had forgotten what happened to me as a child. My mind just froze. I just forgot what happened. I forgot I remembered everything. The only thing I forgot was about the sexual abuse. And I knew my dad was a violent person. But I that was about it. I knew that I didn't like him I created space around him. I knew I had some really strange coping techniques, like I always tried to pretend I was the wallpaper. And I had no idea where that expression came from. And when I didn't want to be seen, I would say be the wallpaper, be the wallpaper, be the wallpaper because I didn't want to be seen. I just didn't know where it all came from. And when I was 16, close to 17 I was a while I was thinking about being sexually active and to recognize boys were pretty cute. So and in this process, I realized that I started to have nightmares, which later on I found out was the all of the things that I was going through was forms of PTSD. And I started having these just rific nightmares where I was screaming completely sweaty, I felt like they were just coming out so fast. And they were so different. They felt so real. So I would journal them down, I'd write it down on any piece of paper. And I'd write it down. Because once I took the piece of paper and wrote it down it I just wanted to know that I wasn't crazy. And so when they were on piece of paper, I could dismiss it, it was almost like, okay, that's down. I'm out of it. And I had so many of these things that I decided to kind of keep a journal, and I would look through them again. And I realized there was a pattern to them. And so I think when you're like somebody who has suffered a lot of trauma, and you experience a lot of PTSD, it's and you can't recall all of it, and you're trying to figure out what happened. Because you recognize that most likely this is probably, you know, if you're dreaming this maybe hundreds and hundreds of time you realize like this is probably something you've experienced. And it's like having a broken window and you're trying to put all the pieces of that broken window together. So everything's in shatters, everything is just, it's you're trying to put it all together. So when I was looking through my words, looking through my journals, I recognized I was writing the same thing, but in different formats, or in that kind of go, oh, that was a time period here. This definitely most likely happened. I mean, I would say definitely, definitely most likely because I really didn't know but I it was just too uncanny to go through so much and write in such detail, like the color of the room, you know, the lighting of the room what it smelt like, so
Greg Voisen
All those emotions were locked up with inside of you, you know, I remember you writing about your, your girlfriends at the time when you were a teenager. And you did want to get involved with boys, you know, they were talking about the size of their shoe or the size of their hand or, I mean, you were quite descriptive of that. And then found out that, you know, even somebody with a small shoe didn't it didn't correlate to this size of their instrument. And, you know, I you know, I'm wondering as a woman, blossoming as you were, you know, as kind of your father says in the in the interviews. And for those of you definitely go to cindytalks.com and watch those interviews with her father. You know, how did all that play out for you, you being able to, you obviously ended up getting married, you obviously end up having kids, you obviously, you know, went through or grew through those things, and how did you grow through it? That's basically what I would say, because you know, here you were molested as a child, saying, well, these memories I blocked out, but then really you didn't, because then you wrote them down in a journal, and it was coming out pretty much. And then you have to get involved with another male figure. And this figure, you know, and so and you had a very poignant discussion on the video, I watched with third gentleman kind of interviewing you and your husband, your now husband, because this is your second husband. Right? So right, right. And, you know, you know, when you watch the body language, it's interesting, it is very interesting to see how people are dealing or trying to cope with it. So the question is really, you know, we talked about disassociation, we talked about your journal, and how those germ was bringing that all out. That was one of your coping mechanisms. Was there anything else you were doing to be able to go through those steps that allowed you to have those relationships again, because many women will just totally block it out?
Cindy Benezra
Well, I think, if you go if you have why happened to have complex PTSD. And so it's, it's a little bit more complicated than just your straightforward PTSD. So it's almost like a hiccup. Sometimes I don't know when I'm going to have maybe something occur, I've learned how to control my impulses a little bit, have set up boundaries around me where I tell people that I have this, like, support me through this, don't leave me, you know, like, I'll roll with it. But if I look back at my dissociation, and what I think like, what a miracle dissociation was, that I was able that my brain like just locked things, so that I could develop and be a teenager and go through these things. And then later on in life, when I really wanted to know more of this information, more unlocked, things happen. And I was I had a lot better coping skills to deal with this. And I realized that the only way I could set boundaries was and protect myself later on as an adult, was by talking to people and letting them know, like, a, I have a fear of this or talking to my significant other, my husband, my current husband, saying, Okay, you need Can you help me? Can you support me in this, these are the things that will most likely trigger me. And I think, in that process, I just became very open, almost raw, just telling people what I needed. And I think in that I started to connect more with who I am. And I just started to release my shame. Because the more you talk about things, it's like you're releasing those triggers, even writing something down on paper, just like that. It just charges that connection. You have with that intensity. I mean, yes, you recognize that it happened. Our it discharges when you through storytelling through writing through education through Yeah,
Greg Voisen
it does, I actually got a master's degree in spiritual psychology. And one of the things that we did was we would write journals, and then the instructors who requested that, that we never read them, we just write them and then we burn them. Right. And I remember going through that, and writing a ton because I was having issues with a relationship with a son, and a bunch of issues, right, and then the healing part of what we did to actually heal, you know, like, sticking pictures of them in front of us and sending them messages every day when the pictures were there. Right. So loving messages in healing messages. And it's interesting, how over time, that is kind of a way to forgive. Right? And I think forgiveness is a big thing. And somebody like you with your father, you had to do that. You also have these other techniques. And I loved reading about these because the journaling was great. But you also to get rid of this heavy cloud, you said you'd take long barefoot walks on the beach, which we just said And you'd exercise you do 100 Sit ups every morning. you'd read inspirational books, one of them was Edgar Allan Poe's writing, you said, do you find that these actions, they were obviously comforting. But if you were to tell others listening today that we're trying to heal from some PTSD event, or sexual abuse, or whatever it might have been, what kind of advice would you provide who's already been on the other side of this, and I would say, probably, particularly women who are listening this because it's about 60% of our listeners, who may have suffered this, but are still hiding it. I think
Cindy Benezra
I'm gonna go back to when I was about 17. And I realized that this was true that this was my reality. And this was my family. And I had a hard time coping with it, where I contemplated suicide, and I contemplated it every day, and thought about jumping from my bedroom window. And the reason I thought about it, it wasn't like I was desperately depressed. It was I couldn't handle the pain. And in the feeling of so much pain, I just wanted it to stop. And I didn't know how else to make this pain stop, other than thinking about killing myself. So I would go through the process of, of why I should stay here on this earth, and why I should not. So I had a pros and cons list. And I wrote it down on paper. And I would write everything that I would miss things that I liked, things that I wanted to accomplish from not being here on this earth. And mostly I realized when I looking at the piece of paper, I realized that a lot of it was just stopping my pain. And it was about fear. And when I looked at all the things that were just so beautiful, that I liked even to like things that I like to eat, I thought while I would miss that I would miss this, you know, and it wasn't really so much my family, I just realized that I would miss a lot of part of life. And in that, I think just by going through that process, and again, it's about taking that charge out and going through that process. And then I realized no, I'm I don't, I don't want to, I probably could fix this. I didn't know how but I thought I probably could fix this. So it was like things that I found beautiful. I looked out there, I felt maybe walking in the sand, feeling the sand because I felt nothing, I could hardly even see colors in the world. Because I hated myself, I hated everything about it. So I think it was trying to get back into touch with life and loving myself. And it was trying to find things that I love about myself. And I had very few I remember I liked my front teeth. And I liked my eyebrows. And I like the color blue. And so I would just start focusing on those things. And try to give myself a lot of affirmations I'd write them down, say it again, like I'm, I'm beautiful because of and I would write a mantra, I would say one A times every time I go to the bathroom, it would stuck it on my mirror. And I would say it over and over again until I felt a shift. And then just write another one. And it's almost like self-talking. I didn't know how to find a shift, try to break that cycle. But eventually, through hundreds of mantras are things of saying more positive things. I just started to slowly shift and I don't even know how it happened. But it just started to happen. And I found
Greg Voisen
myself it's self-acceptance, right. In other words, you get to a point where your enlightenment is self-acceptance of self. In other words, it is how you people. You know, I remember talking to Brian yesterday, actually, we were talking about Dr. Brian Ullman and goes to India twice. And it's trying to find these masters who are enlightened. And the guy says you have it all wrong. It lighten meant isn't a space. We're just people because he was always looking for this perfect person who is going to be this most enlightened soul he was going over there to find and Guru said, no, it's about some self-acceptance of what is. And I think, you know, at times you have to go into that and you know, your history here your histogram, your story. You know, you look at your father and your mother. And then you meet Henry, and you're 22 and he's 23 and both of you marry and you get pregnant and you have Hannah, who by the way when you guys want to actually see the family go watch the video. It's Cindy talks to a duck Calm. And you have a second child, Brian, who is diagnosed with a brain tumor and seizures. Okay? So here comes another event, another event, you have to learn how to cope with it and in your life comes tumbling down, including a husband, who's taking money off your credit cards having affairs. So it's like the triple whammy, right? It's like you got even Cecotto beers you marry, this guy is taking your money, it's having affairs, you're having a son that's having seizures. This is obviously a lot to deal with. Great, it obviously is a lot to deal with. How did you cope with these challenges? I know we've talked about some of them. But now you're, you're going into the trauma of a son who's got potentially life threatening illness. And it's not like you can put all these things on a magnitude. But if you were to like rank it and say, well, my father's sexual abuses, or my son's brain seizures, right, and then a husband who's having an affairs? And if you said, well, I was going to rank those kind of one to 10, you know, where would they fit? You had a lot that were probably in the eight, nine and 10 area, right? It could have could have driven anybody to do what you wanted to do. Now, granted, that jumping out of the window was what you were going to do when you were a teenager, but you were you think about suicide, then to
Cindy Benezra
know and I think no, because I think
Cindy Benezra
I think that's kind of and I'm not for me at the time, it was in the mindset of a child, I didn't really have like a lot of skill set. And then when you become older, you realize, I have children that you know, there's there I have responsibilities, it doesn't become about me anymore. It's way bigger there. It's way more complicated. And I mean, I also had at that time, my mom was dying, and I was nursing her. And she was in the final stages of breast cancer. So I would go from one room where my son was just I diagnosed, I didn't know if he was going to make it was every day, I didn't know if he was going to be there. And then I would go to the next room, I would check in my mom, and she was dying from breast cancer and I could see the cancer coming up, you know, up on her neck. And then my husband who was you know, doing drugs and becoming paranoid. And I was like, I don't recognize these people. And I did put them in categories, I have to say I did put them in categories. I thought, okay, my mom's passing, I cannot change this. I cannot fix my husband. He's on his own journey. And he chose us. And I looked at my son and I thought I just gave birth to this kid. And he's only a few months old. And so I did prioritize, I thought, Okay, I'm going to prioritize where my emotional effort is going to be spent. And I thought it an oddly, because of what I experienced in the past all these different forms of trauma and some crazy way it prepared me for that moment. And I kind of looked at it and I know that I've shared this weather with other people. And I said it was almost like a gift, like because it did prepare me how to deal with that. And I share that with my son and he goes, are you telling me a brain tumor was a gift to you? I'm like, no, it wasn't a gift. But I was able to have so many tools like meditation in hand prayer, all these tools that I survived with, that I could use at that time. And I have to say, there was a lot of times where red wine kind of I just couldn't find a solution. But a glass of red wine at the end of the evening was like, Okay, let me chill and let me have a glass of red wine. Try to like process this all because there wasn't a solution. And my recognize that, in that it wasn't about me. It was way beyond way beyond me. And I think that's more what I think is a lot of adult thinking where you recognize, you know, yes, I was suicidal as a kid, but I had nothing else to think about. I was thinking more like, oh, I'm gonna get a secondary infection, and that's why I can't die. But this was just way beyond it. So it was monumental. And it was piece by piece. I think when you're confronted with something that's just horrific. You take it piece by piece and you look at those wins in that victory and you celebrate every single one of them and my son was having 63 seizures a day. And I remember thinking he got a new medication, and maybe a 30 that day and I celebrated that when and if my ex-husband I came home, you know, high and drunk. I would just think like, but we didn't get in an argument. You know, I was just taking basic stuff, just basic. And my mom, you know that she found pain relief that day. And I thought, well, this is not I can only maintain this so long. I don't know how long, but it was just a day by day process. And yeah,
Greg Voisen
well, you did categorize them is what you said. And that's how you learn to cope with them. And I think sometimes, you know, they, I think there's a reference to the pain body, right. And you know, you can only have so much of that. And I think one of your compartmentalizing techniques was really a great technique for you. And you know, you wrote in the book, you carry it around pain from your father's actions for obviously, quite some time. And maybe even still, so today. But when you're remarried to mark, your mother in law insisted that your father come to dinner, and you wrote in the book, this is a chapter dinner with a pedophile. And she obviously didn't know about your father, she didn't have a clue. Because you haven't you hadn't told her I guess, right? You have a chapter, as you said, that's titled dinner with a pedophile, if you would tell the listeners kind of about the dinner. And when you looked into his eyes, what you felt because you guys had kind of been in different parts of the world, right? You weren't seeing him a lot. And you know, you had this opportunity, and there was going to be a dinner. And you know, from the book, you as a child and young adult, you kind of moved around a lot. You know, you were in different places. Yeah. So tell us about that dinner. And what happened? And I mean, I know that Mark, he knows now obviously, you told him, according to your video, like, I think you guys have been dating two months, when you told, right. And he was very accepting of it.
Cindy Benezra
Very accepting, it was kind of interesting dating too. It was an almost like a screening process, I would go through, like, Okay, I'm gonna tell him right away, you know, I'm not gonna leave this one out. And I thought, like, if they didn't have the skills to talk through, or that, that just terrified them, or whatever it is, but I had right away, it was just something like, I need to find somebody who is strong, who communicate with me, who was open, could have deep conversations, and it was sort of a because I had been single for eight years. And it's not because I couldn't have a relationship. It's just I had a serious child with some serious health issues. And he was my priority. And then later on, when I told Mark, I mean, it was, I found it interesting. Out of all the people, he's the one who questioned me, he, he's like, well, how do you know, it's how do you how do you know? You know, if he says it's not and you're saying it does? How do you know like, what side do you take? And I remember kind of being disturbed by that. But I appreciated his honesty and thinking like, yes, it is, you know, his word against your word, and who do you listen to? And what is the reality of the situation? But that was a complicated time. But I really appreciated Mark's questioning and I thought, Okay, this is a person I could have in my life, because I am very complex. And I do have a lot of depth in these areas. So I was searching for somebody like that. Yeah.
Greg Voisen
He seems very logical. I mean, I listen to the interview, I say your, your husband, Mark seems very logical is what I was saying. And in really, I can just tell just by the few seconds that I got to meet him. really caring, really caring, very caring soul. Now, look at the end of this. And on your website, Cindy talks, a.com. You have these interviews, and the interviews, the video interviews, I'm going to tell my listeners, you want more than the book, go to the website and watch these interviews there. They really reveal a lot about this story and a lot about what has happened since the stories but you ended up taking care of your father at the end stages of his life and you start interviewing your dad. And you state that this marks the beginning of the publishing journey that you're talking about. You mentioned that you did a series of tape conversations that spanned six months. So, to this end stages, you're taking care of your father, in this started the publishing and you have this chapter dad's time to talk to reveal the interviews. I found these interviews compelling, so much so that I asked my wife to watch them too. Can you tell the listeners what happened during the interviews? And what happened with relation to Cindy and Cindy's healing? Because this was really about you finding forgiveness, I think he was 84 years old, or is 84 years old. And during those interviews, it's very apparent when you watch him that he doesn't really want to talk about this. And he's that he's very resistant to you. But he does open up. And His answers are sometimes quipped in short, because that's just who I am. I thought that was interesting, because you talked about a little boy that he obviously molested in the neighborhood as well, who was a little retarded. He even says. And it's like, oh, my gosh, your father not only molested you, and he's molesting a little boy, too. And giving him magazines to cut out pictures and things. And I'm like, wow, I was just blown away.
Cindy Benezra
He actually molested quite a few people, friends. And when I was doing the audio portions of this because I wanted to know more of his thinking, I thought, well, I don't know where this book is going. He never really apologized to me in the format that I would like to hear. And, but in his way, he apologized. And I got it on odd on video. It wasn't the apology that I truly wanted to hear. So I was a little in shock. I tried not to react because I didn't want to row in my personal opinions. I really wanted the person watching it to just observe and translate how they feel about the conversation without me suggesting or leading, just asking him questions and seeing where he goes with it. So it was I found every single one of them hard for me physically to listen to I found it. I would try most of the time I would go to the to the side and I cry. I was disgusted by his reality. I also recognize which I never really, really thought about how ill he is mentally ill he was.
Cindy Benezra
I was very disturbed.
Cindy Benezra
But in that when I have truth, and when I have understanding I could get I am a truth seeker. I don't like to hear it. But I can move past I understand it doesn't mean I have to accept it. But I have to. It has to resonate in my body. And with that, I'm able to find forms of healing. It just takes a lot longer. And I did go through a stage of understanding my father a lot more. But it really came until way after his the interview process. And I think it came way after my children reacted when they found out that their grandfather was a pedophile. And in that I think it I found healing and resolution in the process of being able to find grace for him and have compassion and disregard seeing everybody who judged me for taking care of him. And I realized in that process that it was, it's who I who I am. And I think I've always hated myself. In fact, I came to love myself even more, by finding that part of myself where I go, No, I'm going to be true to myself, I'm going to take care of my dad, I don't, if a dog bites me, if I found it on the side of the road, I would pick it up and still take care of that dog. And I thought, that's who I am. And I thought, you know, my dad never changed me, I'm still the same person, that I was meant to be here on this earth, no matter what the circumstances of life brought me, I'm still the same person, and I haven't changed. My soul is mine, he never broke my will. It's mine to keep. And that's what I learned out of that. And so in that I found a lot of love for myself and self-healing, and forgiveness for my father and even forgiveness for the, the way I thought about him and the crazy things I thought about him so
Greg Voisen
well, I think that you, it's very apparent, you're very compassionate individual, and you have compassion for your family and compassion for your father, to there'd be a lot of women that would have designed their father and never seen them again. But then that wound would have been deeper, and you realize that, you know, and the other thing is, it draws me back to memory of, you know, Man's Search for Meaning Viktor Frankl. You know, if you've never read that book, it's about the concentration camps, but it's more about people taking away your dignity, what you didn't allow your father to do was take away your dignity, you know, the people in the concentration camps and the, the military officers who were beating them and giving them, you know, the toughest times, they're really trying to break them down. You know, in, in, in, in, in, in essence, if you can't be broken down, because your mental constitution is so strong, you find other ways. So a lot of people would play instruments, they would do things to escape, you say disassociate, they had to because the conditions were just so horrific, right? And that, you know, that whole concept of your dignity as an individual is so important. If you were to leave the listeners today, with some sound advice on abuse that your father gave you, what would you tell someone who might be going through something similar in a relationship? And in this case, maybe it's just an abuse from a spouse or abuse from a boyfriend, but it's abuse, it's abuse that's affecting them emotionally. It's affecting the mentally, spiritually, and physically, right, the bruises, whatever it might be, what would you say, as somebody who's been through much of this? Um,
Cindy Benezra
it's a technique that I've learned, and it doesn't matter what it is, because I remember my divorce was one of just trying to think if I was going to get a divorce or not get a divorce. And it's this process that I kind of do with now with everything. And if it if there's something that's an obstacle or a horrible obstacle, and you don't know what to do with it, I always look at it, like, how would I tell my best friend, somebody that I adore and love? How would I tell my child? What are the words I would, how would I talk to them, and then give them at least three or four things? constructive advice. And so I do this with myself. And I actually write it down. I just tried to give it a quick short little sentence about kindly out I would help myself as a friend, but I really tried to take my son that assists dissociation works really well in this technique. But I really try to take myself out of the picture. Because when you remove yourself, you take the fear out of that. So if you're referring to a friend, somebody that you love, like your child, it comes completely out of love. And so writing a few suggestions out of love for your best friend, and then offering it and just putting the piece of paper down, coming back and going, Oh, okay. Put your name in front of that or address it, Cindy or whatever, you know, Greg address that and we'll look at that, and then go, Okay, this is the advice that I'll take. There's only three here and I could do it. You don't have to solve all of them, but just give three good solutions. and the rest will follow. I mean, we all have incredible strength and tools all within us. You don't have to find great masters, you have it within your body, within your soul, you have this divine beacon that tells you what is right and what is wrong, and you know what works for you. And you have to tap into that, and listen to that, and only your voice. And those will be the things that guide you through the end. And you don't have to figure out all the little things, you know, most likely,
Greg Voisen
I think you have to have a lot of hope, faith belief. You talk about some of these in your in the last part of the book. And I'll just meant given them a quick mission mentioned, self-healing techniques, I thought the sticky notes was pretty cool. And for all of us go, go and get the book, visionary work, mantras, journaling, okay, and we're talking about a few, obviously, meditation, exercise, self-care, I think Loving yourself is probably one of the most important ones. Deep breathing, breath work. Okay, and the list goes on. Reiki, there's a lot of things you can do that can help you cope, learn how to cope with this. And I would say one of the biggest things is really, to have a belief in something greater than yourself, this would be the side of me from the spiritual side that says, okay, no matter what your belief is, whether you're agnostic or not. The reality is, is that when you can believe in a higher power to help you through many of these things, it really does help a lot. And I'm not saying who or what higher power it is for people. But there is a higher power out there. If you meditate, and you listen, and you get in touch with it, it's there. Okay, not again. So that's really the most important thing. And I think that the book, and the videos that you have created at the website, are just so instructional Cindy, and I want to say, thank you for doing this, because this is a topic that's so close to you. It's so personal. It takes a lot of I'm gonna say courage to do what you've done. And you're helping people out there that need to heal, and you're helping with the book, and I'm gonna hold the book up, do go get a copy of this book, everybody who's out there listening, read the book, it's very well written. It's a great memoir. But in it, there's lessons, lots of lessons about the pain and suffering she went through and how she learned how to cope with it. And that's the best part. Any parting words for our listeners,
Cindy Benezra
I just want to say that without a doubt, whatever you're going through in life, I do know that you will come through if you choose to put a little effort into it. I know you will come through.
Greg Voisen
Well, thank you and Namaste to you. Thank you for being here. And I appreciate you and appreciate what you did. And for all my listeners again, go get the book. It's out there. It'll be on Amazon. We'll have a link here. And we really appreciate you taking the time Cindy to spend a few minutes with our listeners today talking about your new book, under the orange blossom. Please go get a copy of the book. Thanks so much.
Cindy Benezra
Okay, thank you. Thank you, Greg. Pleasure.
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Inside Personal Growth with Greg Voisen · Podcast 1006: Think Bigger: How to Innovate with Sheena IyengarJoining me for this episode is known as a world expert on choice and decision-making, Sheena Iyengar. She is here with us today to share her recently released book entitled Think Bigger: How to Innovate.
Sheena is the inaugural S.T. Lee Professor of Business in the Management Division at Columbia Business School. Her research, which is regularly cited in the New York Times, Wall Street Journal, and in popular books, focuses on the many facets of decision making, including: why people want choice, what affects how and what we choose, and how we can improve our decision making.
Sheena also has TED talks which have collectively received almost four million views. She is also an award-winning author as her first book The Art of Choosing received the Financial Times and Goldman Sachs Business Book of the Year 2010 award, and was ranked #3 on the Amazon.com Best Business and Investing Books of 2010.
And just last April 11, she released her new book Think Bigger: How to Innovate. In this book, Sheena answers a timeless question with enormous implications for problems of all kinds across the world: “How can I get my best ideas?”. It also offers an innovative evidence-backed method for generating big ideas that Sheena and her team developed and refined over the last decade.
If you’re interested and want to know more about Sheena, please click here to visit her website.
I hope you enjoy my engaging interview with Sheena Iyengar. Happy listening!
You may also refer to the transcripts below for the full transciption (not edited) of the interview.
Interview Transcipt -Not EditedEmailDownloadNew TabGreg Voisen
Welcome back to Inside Personal Growth. This is Greg Voisen, the host of Inside Personal Growth. And joining me from New York on the other end of this zoom call and audio call is Sheena Iyengar. Am I pronouncing that right? I want to make certain. And we're going to be talking about Think Bigger: How to Innovate. She is a professor at Columbia Business School. And good day to you, how you doing?
Sheena Iyengar
I'm great. How are you doing? Good, beautiful day here in New York City.
Greg Voisen
Well, I'm glad to hear that it's a beautiful day here in Encinitas, California, as well. And I'm gonna let my listeners know a tad about you. She is the S T li Professor of Business in the management department at Columbia Business School, and the best-selling author of The Art of choosing we were just talking about that before coming on the air. That was a book that she wrote in 2010, that I was very fascinated about. She's a leading expert on the study of innovation, choice, leadership and creativity, and regularly consults with a range of organizations on methods for innovation. That is the quick part about it. You can also actually go to her website, which I had up here a second ago. What's the website for the book again? You know,
Sheena Iyengar
I think bigger.com
Greg Voisen
Bigger think bigger.com. She's also on a podcast. Well, not a podcast, but
Sheena Iyengar
I'm on LinkedIn. Yeah.
Greg Voisen
And you're on Think big. And we'll put all the links in our blog, because I was watching the recording that she did for Think big. So, you know, she, you know, there's a lot of things going on our world deep today. And we need people that think big. And you wrote in, when you wrote your book, The Art of Choosing back in April 2010. We did an interview together. And I remembered it distinctly, I remember you talking about going down the grocery store aisle and looking at peanut butter, if I remember correctly, and there were too many choices. And you mentioned in the preface, that we have big problems that we need ways to create new choices to solve these complex problems. You call this method think bigger. Can you tell us a bit about the think bit bigger method, and how, you know, sometimes having too many choices, if we're going to bring that into this can really make it challenging.
Sheena Iyengar
So in the art of choosing, I really focus my attention on describing for people what I think the challenges are, that confront modern day, choosers are, and the biggest of which is the fact that we have a lot of choice. Most of those are meaningless choices, or illusory choices. We can't tell them apart, sometimes they're just noise. Sometimes they're irrelevant. Sometimes they're fake choices. But we've created a marketplace of choice that's, at times not really empowering, it can often feel more disempowering or paralyzing. Now, what think bigger aims to do is, essentially, help us with two things. One is, how do you do a better job of picking and finding so when I think of choice and the power of choice, what does choice allow you to do? The tool choice enables you to pick and find what I'm looking for, you know, the perfect career, how do I find it. And the second thing it allows you to do is create, there really isn't a career that I really like out there, how do I create one that's really meaningful. And so essentially, what the goal of Think bigger is, is to help you really leverage the power of choice. And this toolkit enables you to do both those things, which is how to become a better picker, and finder, and how to become a better creator. And when I say creator, I mean creator of meaningful choices. So these are not, these are for problems that you genuinely want to solve. You're not just looking for a quick solution that doesn't matter so much.
Greg Voisen
And I remember you saying in the book, sometimes, you know, when we go after something, we go after it to think bigger. It isn't incremental, you know, we'll think of this big problem we'd like to solve like, at this point, let's talk about the environmental warming and on the co2 emissions and it's very, very big problems gonna take a lot, but it needs to kind of be The Divide, how do you want to call the proximal goals? Right? The smaller goals that lead to have
Sheena Iyengar
to start at a level that is doable, right? And yet, if you were to solve it at that doable level, solve it in a way that it's potentially scalable. I mean, we often forget that Amazon actually started with just books. It was it did not start as The Everything Store. Right, Netflix started off by sending you DVDs in the mail. It really scaled from there, but we often forget where things start.
Greg Voisen
I agree with you, we do. And we have a tendency to think, you know, I go back to the day of, you know, when we all look at the cell phones, we're holding, you know, like the palm pilot, and I thought that was a big deal, right? But that's where things start is we were sharing information on an infrared when we would go to meetings, right? And I'm old enough to remember that including the facts now everything is PDF, and Adobe's got a corner on that. But you know, you teach this course Think bigger at Columbia University. How does discourse evolve? And what are your thoughts on the current AI chat CBD technology evolution that's starting to do some of the thinking for us? I mean, we're talking about thinking bigger. There's obviously a big debate out there. The reason I threw that question in, although it's not in the book, is because I'm interested in seeing what professors like yourself. We’re thinking about that.
Sheena Iyengar
The I, I don't I think that church UBT is actually going to be a positive. I know, there's a lot of fear about it. What chat GBT allows you to do so think about what is a new choice. It's a new combination of old, old, existing ideas, right? And what Chet GBT allows you to do is create lots and lots of combinations, and lots and lots of iterations, seamlessly, really quickly, it doesn't get unlike a human being, it doesn't get tired, right? And what enables me to do me the human is, for once, I can actually see all these different combinations and compare and contrast. Which one do I like better? Which one seems to work better? How do I tweak them across in a way that I couldn't do before? So I actually think it's going to make you more creative. Remember, back in the day, we thought that the blue was going to kill chess, particularly when it you know, beat a human opponent. But actually, it turned out if anything, humans that had access to these computerized chess opponents over time have only become better chess players.
Greg Voisen
Yeah, and I would agree with you. I mean, I'm on the side that I think set chat CBT is going to revolutionize many different elements of our life.
Sheena Iyengar
Now, will it become something that is used for a dark side? Sure, everything is right. Like, think of the camera? Did it kill realism in terms of paintings. But guess what? It created Impressionism, cubism, and it even created the new art form called the photographer. Right. So in terms of art, it actually created more, did the camera as a tool ended up being used for other things that we didn't intend or expect it to be used. Sure, but that's how humans are. Well, the
Greg Voisen
technology, whether it's CBT, or it's the camera, or some of the other things we've talked about the cell phone has moved the epilation. Evolve society and people. And I think we have, as you say, more options, more opportunities to solve these problems in different ways. And you know, you wrote about it in your book, which I thought was pretty cool. You do a tandem ride early in the morning along the Hudson River with the destination being Statue of Liberty.
Sheena Iyengar
In fact, I just did it this past Sunday, when the weather was finally getting a little better.
Greg Voisen
Were you back on the bike again? Congratulations. Yes, thank
Sheena Iyengar
you. Sold it out. It was gold up until now.
Greg Voisen
Yeah. So why is the amazing symbol of the Statue of Liberty and liberty and triumph and getting it erected? Because you tell the whole story about how you know is made in France and we had erected put it up these heroic stories that you say there's two key elements of creative genius, and ceaseless effort. And I think we've talked a little bit about ceaseless effort because you got to stay consistent at it. You have to be persistent. Speak with our listeners about those two elements and the story if you would.
Sheena Iyengar
Well, I think whenever we think of the big idea, and whether it's Lady Liberty, whether it's Steve Jobs and the phone, whether it's Mahatma Gandhi, me could take any artist, any innovator, any great sort of thought leader. And you can we often love to tell their story as a hero's journey. And Disney makes almost every movie as a hero's journey and makes a lot of money. And what is the hero's journey, it's, I have an idea. I now have to cross many hurdles. I you know, sometimes there's a bad guy, sometimes it's just I have to climb mountain after mountain to finally get there. And then at the end, the hero either tragically dies or wins against all the odds. We love those stories, because they're inspiring and they're motivating. And Lady Liberty is no different. Right? It's actually a phenomenal story. You know, he is a guy who has to really fight to build this, you know, statue that sits in our harbor. First, he had to crowdsource it from France to get the regular people to fund it. It was supposed to be a way to mobilize the French to really believe in democracy and freedom, resurrect their faith again. It was supposed to be gift to the United States get to the United States, we still need funding to actually, you know, put the statue on to something, some kind of a pedestal. Again, they had to do fundraising. In fact, that guy Pulitzer, you know, who we named the Pulitzer Prize after, he was actually the one who led this sort of called it crowdfunding or Kickstarter campaign long before that existed. And, you know, people to pay by dimes, and nickels, and each person that contributed their name appeared in the paper, and little by little, we formed the statue. And it's a great story, right? And not only did they build it, and that the moment when it's unveiled Emma Lazarus crew, writes this beautiful poem commemorating its purpose and the world has never been the same. It's not just a statue. It's a symbol of New York. It's a symbol of the United States. It's a symbol of freedom, democracy, tolerance, opportunity, the American dream. It just stands for so much. Of course, it's just a statue. And I think in the midst of all these stories, what we forget to think about is, how did the person actually get the idea? Right, yeah, okay. Yeah, I get any, once they had an idea, they had to go through all these trials and tribulations to sort of an machinations to get it there. And they actually probably adapted more than you realize, but that's the less sexy part of the story. But have you got the idea? We never answered that. In the Disney World. Movie, we act as if that part just happens like magic. Maybe you were sitting under a tree, or you know, revelation came into came to you while you were sleeping. And so what I what I the reason why I focused on Lady Liberty's Yeah, she's such an amazing symbol. And it's such a beautiful story. And yet, we never tell you how Bartoletti actually got the idea. And do you want me to walk people through the idea?
Greg Voisen
I think it would be good, you know, because the idea then developed into, like you say, this ceaseless effort, you were talking about what Pulitzer had to do and the rest of it. Yeah, but the idea is really the spark
Sheena Iyengar
the ignition. So how did he get the idea of what Lady Liberty would actually be? And so she's as big as one of the large, colossal sculptures guarding the ancient Egyptian tombs. And that's because Bartoletti spent his youth in Egypt and was inspired by those sculptures. It has the crown of liberty talks, which was a Roman goddess, and that crown was found on a five franc coin at the time that Bartoli would have been making the sculpture. It has the pose in the posture of a very famous painting at the time, love fairy tale, the lady of truth that was painted by love. And it has the face of his mother. If you put all those pieces together, you have laid liberty. And so what we think of the narrative of everything else, you know, his life and what he had to do. But where did he get the idea? And the idea that he got for how he put it together is none other than the same way you get ideas for all kinds of things that you do every single day of your life, you simply take elements that are familiar to you. And you combine them in a way that makes sense that works for you. And that's what he did to
Greg Voisen
put the dots together, right?
Sheena Iyengar
You put the dots together? And yeah, and yes, the whole was greater than the mere sum of the elements, but it's still a combination.
Greg Voisen
Right, that makes the whole. So how he got all these pieces that he was thinking of, to actually create the lady of Liberty is, that's really quite interesting, because that's the, like, you were saying 10 minutes ago, we always seem to forget how we evolved to get where we are today, you know, we just didn't start off with the cell phone, I was using a Palm Pilot, right? These things, they evolved their iterations. And I even speak about that in my book as well, you know, you get an intuition, a thought and idea, and you have to then write the idea down, and then you have to take it through a cycle to kind of innovate it. But you mentioned that think finger offers the reader a set of tools and skills to solve any kind of complex problem. Can you speak with the listeners about the six steps and the roadmap you've created? For better understanding how to solve big problems, because the book, you know, this is the essence of the book, folks, people listening is basically kind of these six steps. And I think that knowing what those steps are, makes it easier for somebody to put it into context. Because when you and but also, when you have such a big idea, you need to break it down and chunk it out and figure out when the first one is, you know, figure out the problem you're going to solve. Right?
Sheena Iyengar
That's right. I This is a very practical book. And that really was my intention. I've made, you know, think the art of choosing was meant to be very descriptive, and tried to be very holistic, think bigger, is really making trying to be very practical, give people a book that's easy to read. And very tactical, like, here's what you do, you need to solve a problem, here's your six steps that you can do, because I'm trying to make it so that we no longer have this myth, that creativity is meant for those who are so called creative types, or the so called geniuses like Bartoletti, or Einstein, or Newton. Anybody can innovate. And in fact, we all do innovate from the moment we're born, we are innovating every single day of our lives, we just don't call it that. And so what I'm doing is being very deliberative about telling you, here's what you do step one, step two, step three, step four, step five, step, step six, so that you can see what not only what our brains would normally do, but how to do it in a deliberative way. So that you don't feel like you have to wait for magic to happen instead. Anytime you need a solution, here's your little go to method to do it. And so would you like me to just briefly walk you through the steps?
Greg Voisen
Yeah, I think that would be good for the listeners to understand what those six steps are.
Sheena Iyengar
So the first question you ask yourself is, what's that problem you're trying to solve? And it can't be too big. You're not solving world hunger. It has to be something that is doable, solvable, but solvable, that if you were to solve it, you could potentially scale it. And all I catalyzed a creative way that people could buy books more conveniently and cheaply and, and seamlessly, beginning of Amazon. So what's the problem I'm trying to solve, find one that that is strategically helpful and solvable. Break it down into its most important parts. So in order to be able for people to be able to buy books easily, what would I have to make easy for them? So I'd have to make it easy for them to pay. I'd have to make it you know, product that doesn't break along the way you know. So you figure out what are those subproblems that you need to solve for, then you ask yourself, if you were to solve and come up with the ideal solution for your problem? How would you want the solution to feel like what are the main characteristics? We often forget to do this. And that makes it hard for us to know how to choose once we have multiple solutions. So I have people do this. And the third step, I call it compare once. And that's where I say, okay, so what are the sort of three attributes? There are three adjectives that have to characterize or describe your soul, your ideal solution. The fourth step, search in and out of the box, and think bigger, we create something called a choice map. And in the choice map, you have the problem, you have the breakdown. And then for every sub problem, you search far and wide. And we will give you techniques for doing that. So that you can identify ways in which this problem has been solved for not just in your industry, but in totally different, different industries, as well as in different points in the past. So you're collecting different strategies for solving the various parts of your problem. Step five is something I called Choice mapping, which is my alternative to brainstorming, which is when you take these strategies, and you combine and recombine, and you can combine in lots of different ways. In a typical choice map, which a prototypical choice map would be what I call a five by five, you can generate 3125, unique solutions, that's definitely a way that you can get many, many solutions. But because you've already identified your wants in the third step, you actually don't have a too much choice problem, you will know how to weed them out, and you have a selection criteria. And then the sixth step is what I call the third eye. Because a lot of times, once we have an idea, we think we're done, but it's in your head, you know, you're not ready to go out into the world and ask people to like it. Instead, you have to first see how others are going to see the idea and how they're going to interpret the idea, do not have an idea until there's an alignment between what you're thinking your idea is and how others are going to receive it. And so I have a series of exercises for people to do that.
Greg Voisen
Would you expect them Shana to actually wait and till the end? Before they share that? Because I know there's this common misconception that, you know, as you share your ideas, you know, I mean, how many have we had that people said, Oh, you're an idiot, or it's not gonna go anywhere, or, you know, because we're talking to all kinds of people at different levels out there, we're talking about individuals that are sitting trying to create a new way to make something better in the world, to big companies like IDEO, who does that? Pretty much as part of their business model, right? So when I get this idea, and I do this needs, and I come down to this last step, which is number six, do you think that that's the best time to start sharing my idea with others?
Sheena Iyengar
Well, I think you're sharing, you're asking a lot of questions up until that like, in order for you to do a breakdown, you have to talk to a lot of people so that you fully understand what are the main reasons why this problem exists. Like, you know, why is there a lot of fake news? For example, or, you know, how do people think about how to find a career, you're definitely out there talking to people to better understand the problem. And when you get to the point where you think you have an idea, the temptation for anybody is going to be to tell you how they feel. They can't help that is the what's important for you. The idea creator, is to smile and get past that and really just ask people. So what about this works? What about this doesn't work? If it were you, how would you improve it? Or if it were you, how would you present the idea if you were presenting it? And that's how you learn.
Greg Voisen
Right? The manifestation of your ideas into materialistic form is one thing and the steps you're talking about. These six steps are so important to go through Um, to distill your idea down and then to know that it's viable solution. And I think that's it. And I know, in the book, you said that this is this system that you've got, and your, your mapping is different than brainstorming. And you mentioned in 1938, that Osborn was the guy who kind of invented brainstorming, and that there were five rules for brainstorming, and the controversy about the, what's called Creation biased, was embedded in the group brainstorming process. Speak with the listeners about that, because you also spoke about, you know, Roger Sperry, the Nobel Prize guy, and his ties with left brain light, right brain because that's a kind of, I think people have read this, you know, well, who's more creative? And then Oh, am I going to use brainstorming? And why wouldn't I use brainstorming? And this creation bias that's embedded in it is one of the reasons not to use it, correct?
Sheena Iyengar
Yeah, I mean, Alex Osborn, to be fair, wasn't trying to come up with a new method for creativity. He was just trying to solve a very simple problem, which he did solve. And that was how do I get more people to chat? We have a real hierarchy in the office, I do all the talking. He was the leader. How do I get more people at the table to talk and his five rules, solve that problem? defer judgment, build on the ideas of others, encourage wild ideas, go for quantity. Stay focused. So those are the rules that are still used by IDEO. And for the intentions of Alex Osborn, he created a set of rules that brilliantly enable you to have a wonderful dinner conversation. I mean, those are great rules for having a great dinner conversation. It's they're also great rules for you to sort of share your thoughts, your you know, who you are piece of yourself, learn about each other, learn what each other knows, least a little bit. But it's not how you're going to get a great idea. It's not how you're going to get a solution to a complex problem. It could be a way to create coordination, like, you know a little bit about this part of the business. And I know a little bit about this other part of the business. And so the person knows a little bit about this other part of the business, we all share the information, we might be able to coordinate Natanz, it's great. But we're not going to solve the problem of Oh, my God, we're about to have a shortfall of, you know, half a billion dollars. What's the solution? We're not going to get that in a 20 minute brainstorm. What about
Greg Voisen
in just the ideation part of it? So in other words, I did an interview with a gentleman who wrote a kind of a whole book about this. Ideation salons. So when you're actually evolving the idea itself, with many people, now, maybe you're not calling it brainstorming. But in essence, it kind of would be referred to as brainstorming. what's your what's your sense of that? You know?
Sheena Iyengar
Well, my feeling is we throw out the word brainstorming a lot, too. We do. I know. Yeah, for pretty, pretty much any kind of conversation or thinking. So let me be clear, when I say brainstorming is problematic, I mean, the traditional brainstorming of, hey, we've got a really big problem. Let's huddle together for 30 minutes and come up with a solution. I'll tell you the problem. Everybody throw out ideas. That's what I that's the one I'm saying isn't gonna work. Okay. Now, ideation itself. Sure. I mean, think bigger. Absolutely. It's it just what think bigger does is it guides you on when you reflect by yourself. When you collect information by yourself, when you share with others, talk to others learn with others, combined with others in terms of information bits. And it or and how do you organize the information so that you can now generate real solutions as opposed to just sort of wild ideas from thin air? Mm hmm.
Greg Voisen
I think it's a I think it's true. I think there's this part of the human species that has likes this collaboration, let's just call it collaboration. And it helps us spawn ideas that maybe we have up because we weren't eight, we got stuck. I think people get stuck frequently. And there's ways to get unstuck. Does the choice map help people and making these decisions, get unstuck, and then distill it down to the single best idea.
Sheena Iyengar
So here's how others can really help you with a choice map, I gave you three things that exists in the world as a potential things you could use to solve a problem. You're going to see how to combine them in one way, and I'm going to see how to combine them in another. And that's how we can really help each other. That's,
Greg Voisen
that's extremely valuable, I guarantee you, yes. So in the book, is that choice map, and I'm going to hold up the copy of the book again, think bigger, how to innovate, we're gonna have a link to that as well. Also, she's got a website, it's SHENAIYENG ar.com. And there, you can go look for resources and look more about the book. Now, I remember you, you put this statement in the book from Albert Einstein, it's been quoted many times. And he said, If I had an hour to solve a problem, I'd spend 55 minutes thinking about the problem and five minutes, thinking about the solutions, speak with our listeners about the iterative process of writing the problem, then reframing the problem, from different perspectives in order to find the most meaningful and feasible way to solve the problem, because in essence, that's what Einstein is saying, right?
Sheena Iyengar
Yes, you have to really we have, we all have a tendency of defining our problem as either too broad and vague or so narrow as to make it sort of meaning us. And so you've got to take that problem and really talk about it to multiple people keep framing and reframing and reframing and you look at it by stepping it up, as I call it, stepping it down, stepping it sideways, left and right. And little by little, you start to see which way to frame it so that it works.
Greg Voisen
Yeah, and it's all those iterations that do that. And you know, you had a great story in the book. Throughout the book, you speak about so many different problems, and you tell so many great stories, but there was one about the COVID crisis and the ventilator shortages, and you spoke beautiful,
Sheena Iyengar
yeah, 37 days, and they built a ventilator, even though they didn't have expertise.
Greg Voisen
Right? You said she had to read, wing her whole factory, and, you know, knew everything. But he also said, and one of my questions here is, because Steven Kotler has been on here so many times, we talked about the role of passion, that passion plays in the process of solving the problems. Can you speak about
Sheena Iyengar
that? See, I think it has to be a problem that you care about. It's a problem that you're willing to go out and search for information to try to help solve it. But I don't think that I think we often overuse the word passion, I would say that. I can't just ask you, hey, Greg, what are you passionate about? You might know, you might not know, my way of actually getting people to understand if they're passionate about something. And this is what I do with my students. Let's say you have a problem you think you're interested in? I have you pitch that problem, in the span of two hours, about 40 times. Let me tell you something, in two hours, if you have to keep pitching something over and over and over again, one minute a pop, and you're pitching in, and then you're watching other people's reactions, by the end of those two hours, a good chunk of them, rethink if that's something they're passionate about. They may start off saying I'm really passionate. But in two hours, a good chunk of them are ready to switch to something else. So I think that you want something you care about passion unto itself isn't going to give you the solution, what gives you the solution is finding the right bits to combine. But yes, you're going to spend a lot of time on it. So it's something you got to be willing to say got to be the kind of problem you're willing to dedicate a lot of time to. And so you want to do a little test for yourself. You're not gonna just be able to ask your god like, hey, is this something I'm really passionate about? No, you gotta go out there into the world and actually test it out. See, you know, did I pass this Passion Test?
Greg Voisen
Mm hmm. I believe though, and I've interviewed people that speak about this, you know, you, you've got curiosity, you know, if you're going to go solve a problem, you pretty much have to be pretty curious. You also have to be focused no on the say, okay, so, focus is kind of for free. But if you can get that focus, and then you have to have a passion, and then you have to set goals, and then you have to have, you know, interim goals. And I think that, you know, if you look at the evolution of how somebody comes about up, comes to a new idea, and then evolves a new idea into something, they obviously started that point of curiosity, would you agree with that, and then they distilled curiosity down into defining what the problem was, in your case, your six steps, and then moving, be it moving it all the way through?
Sheena Iyengar
Curiosity is very big predictor. So let's put it this way. If you look at creative outcomes, and you look at the research, passion, plays very little predictive power. Even when you look at like Kickstarter ventures, when you look at venture capital invest ventures, despite all the rhetoric around passion, that's not a big predictor. It's a very small predictor, much bigger predictors are how prepared was the Ideator. Now, you could say preparation is, in a sense, a real proxy for passion, right? If you're gonna win, I'll make sure you prepare that shows me look you care. Yeah. I guess it depends on how you're going to define passion. Curiosity, is in a sense, a proxy for, you know, are you going to spend the time really searching for what are different ways to think about how you're going to gather information. So maybe that's another proxy for passion.
Greg Voisen
And in a sense, I've personally defined a passion this way, because my purpose statement is I exist to serve to inspire passion, that's moving people from a point of not having much clarity to moving to a point where they've got real clarity with inside themselves. And I think, to have to work on an idea, you have to be very clear. Now it's going to go through its iterative processes over time, but it, you have to be pretty clear about what you're trying to solve, as you said, in the first one number, what are you trying to solve? And you do this great exercise call called Draw a dog with pence? And you mentioned that people emerge from the exercise was so many combinations of dogs with pants? Can you speak with that was a great, I'm really good, because I have two little dogs. So just thinking these dogs with pants on him? Can you speak about it?
Sheena Iyengar
Great, that's a great exercise. An example of the Third Eye, which is that I think I can be really clear in my instructions, which is just, you know, draw me a picture of a dog wearing pants, and I think it should be self-evident. And yet it's not. There's so many different ways in which people could end up doing it.
Greg Voisen
Yeah, yeah. I mean, you know,
Sheena Iyengar
This is a fun example. But take anything in the news, right? I mean, we think this is true, we were putting out a fact and yet to have people see it so differently, right.
Greg Voisen
Obviously, we've seen that happen with the evolution on the internet with, you know, our, our biases, that are being put out there and now with social media, through social media, and then causing great division amongst people as well as Is it true? It's true for me? It doesn't mean it's true for everybody. Or is it? Where is the truth? The big T, right? That's right. I mean,
Sheena Iyengar
I mean, that's the reason why I tell people like once you've got an idea, you've got to go out there. Right? And really just see how people see it. So like, I'll tell you another exercise they do that sort of like the dog and pants that's wonderful exercise that I do in class. I have everybody come up with a word. Take three minutes, just come up with a new word, and have to come up with a word and the definition of the word. And then, so they have their word and they have their definition. Now, each person has to go up to 10 other people and just say their word and then the other person tells you how they would define it. You know, like, spell Lilla. For example, the other person would say, you know, that means blah, blah, the next person would say that means blah, blah, blah. And let's say now you, Greg, collect up 11 different ways now of defining your word, your definition plus 10. Others. It turns out that after that, if I asked you, how would you define like, what's your word? And how would you define it? About 50%? We'll revise based on what they heard. Right? And by the way, the ones who are more likely to revise their words are more likely to win the word tournament.
Greg Voisen
I can see that happening. I'm visualizing that in my mind's eye to your ability to
Sheena Iyengar
revise having that open mind. I mean, it's getting back to your notion of are you curious to see how other people will see it? Are you going to have an open mind? Other ways, that ability to really pay attention and revise is what predicts success moreso than saying, hey, I've got this idea, and I'm going to stick to it no matter what.
Greg Voisen
Well, it's, you know, when I was getting my master's degree in spiritual psychology, we used to say, you don't have to believe everything you think. And the reality is, is that we have, we all have a lot of beliefs about things. Right. But the
Sheena Iyengar
question is willingness to question yourself, and rethink is always a healthy thing. Right? And
Greg Voisen
then, when, you know, I think some people will say, when does a belief become a knowing? When does a belief become a truth? And I'm not gonna we don't have time in this podcast to answer that question. Because I've seen the evolution of that. But, you know, we use descriptive words for things like belief and opinion, and unknowing and a truth. And all of these things, as you said, pick a word. And if I went up to somebody today and walked around your classroom and said, My Word is truth, and this is what I believe truth means there's going to be 50 other opinions about what truth means as well. And your ability to adjust to that, right? That's right. Yeah. And that's, that's, you know, what it's, that's awareness at its best level, really, that's a very strong ability to create awareness around your belief, having an Oracle ad add on thinking additional elements to it. Now, like your book, Think bigger. And I'm going to hold it up for the listeners so they can see this on the screen. How to innovate. It's, you know, it's got so many bits of advice, and so much, so many stories in it. Great stories, by the way.
Sheena Iyengar
Thank you so much. Yeah,
Greg Voisen
You took a long time to figure out which stories you were gonna put were in that one, I could tell. But what three bits of advice, I always like to leave listeners with advice that you would give them that could leave them about solving any size problem, but in this case, yours is a bigger problem, but
Sheena Iyengar
what would you tell them? I would say first you have to be choosy about choosing, not every problem is worth solving. Not every choice is worth making, figure out which choices are the most important. The second I would say is when you're stuck, the first thing you really want to do as stupid and obvious as it might sound is really ask yourself. So wait, what's the problem I'm really trying to solve? What is it exactly? Just that in itself gives you focus. And the third thing I would say is, once you've defined that problem for yourself, you want to ask yourself, Okay, so who do I know? Or who in the world would have had to have solved a problem like this? Let me go look it up. So that you're not just coming up with ideas in thin air, learn the best practices that exist, it'll make you a much better innovator.
Greg Voisen
That last one is really powerful Shana. So I want to thank you for that. I want to thank you for being on the show with us today and giving your words of practical advice around solving problems as well as your wisdom around it, because you've been doing it when you go back to the art of choosing. I think much of this is wrapped in that first book as well. And for my listeners, we've been on with Sheena Iyengar and the book is called Think bigger I will put a link to check that you can go to our website@shenaiyenjr.com to learn more about her. Sheena, thanks so much for being on inside personal growth and sharing about your new book, The stories in your new book. And I think most importantly, the six steps to thinking to thinking bigger. Thanks so much.
Sheena Iyengar
Thank you
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Inside Personal Growth with Greg Voisen · Podcast 1005: Meditation and Beyond with Elliot Dacher, MDIt’s a returning guest again for today as joining me today is Elliott Dacher. He already has several books in his name but featuring in this episode is his latest one entitled Meditation and Beyond: Peace That Surpasses Understanding Happiness without a Cause Freedom from the Known.
Elliott studies and teaches the principles and practices of health and healing with a special focus on inner development and human flourishing. His work emphasizes the traditional goals of medicine: the end of distress and suffering and the promotion of each individual’s fullest potential. He began his medical practice in 1975 but left in 1996 to begin an in-depth study of the principles and practices of consciousness and health.
These studies were put into writings as his books. His latest one Meditation and Beyond: Peace That Surpasses Understanding Happiness without a Cause Freedom from the Known, released last March, offers a profound, natural meditation appropriate for the beginner as well as the advanced learner. In this book, Elliott shares the traditional, noble tradition of meditation that takes you beyond the limitations of the ordinary mind, an approach that is smarter rather than harder.
If you’re interested and want to know more about Elliott, you may click here to visit his website.
I hope you enjoy my engaging interview with Elliott Dacher. Happy listening!
You may also refer to the transcripts below for the full transciption (not edited) of the interview.
Interview Transcipt -Not EditedEmailDownloadNew TabGreg Voisen
Welcome back to Inside Personal Growth. This is Greg Voisen, the host of Inside Personal Growth. And we have a returning guest. Elliott Dacher, MD is joining us from Martha's Vineyard. Good day to you, Elliott. How are ya?
Elliott Dacher
I'm doing just fine. Good day. How are you?
Greg Voisen
I'm wonderful. I'm here in the it's not sunny this morning, but Encinitas. It's a foggy morning. We were used to that here. How about you things? Good.
Elliott Dacher
Nice, sunny here and I spent my winters in Encinitas.
Greg Voisen
Oh, you do? Well, then you and I are gonna have to get together when you're when you're out here. So Elliott's been on the show before he's written many books, and I'm gonna let my listeners know a little bit about you. Dr. Dacher studies and teaches the principles and practices of health and healing, with a special focus on inner development, human flourishing. His work emphasizes the traditional goals of medicine, the end of distress and suffering and the promotion of each individual's fullest potential. I was born and raised in New York, he received his bachelor's degree from Queens College, see you in why and attended medical school at LSU. And why buffalo his postgraduate training was completed at Michael Reese Hospital in Chicago. And on the Harvard Medical Service at Peter Bent Brigham Hospital in Boston. He's board certified internal medicine. In 1996, he left medical practice to begin his in depth study of the principles and practices of consciousness, and health and the ongoing studies of the mind body medicine, integral health and human flourishing, which is pursued, pursued amongst the wisdom traditions of Asia is unique education and inner aspects of health inherited led him to his most recent book, which is this is the one of the first ones was aware, awake, alive. And if you would, Elliott, hold up the book that we're going to be speaking about, which is called meditation and beyond, there you go. Peace that suppresses understanding happiness, without a cause freedom from the noun, okay? So, you know, you have several books, people will put a link to your website, so people can go look at the books that you've written, but this book, in particular, meditation and beyond. And I always like the beyond part, because, you know, you speak about that extensively. And I think it's important for people to know that meditation to just actually, how do you want to say it relieves stress and have better relationships and is one thing and you state that it's evolving to better fit our modern world? You speak about what you refer to as the awareness based meditation? Can you speak with the listeners about this type of meditation, and where you're trying to go with this?
Elliott Dacher
Yes, small, most mass meditations in western world have to do with suppressing the active overactive mind, thoughts, feelings, images, and flowing through the mind, to quiet the mind and calm the mind outweighs the focus is really on thoughts, feelings, images, as somehow rather distracting was suppressing them. But that's really a very entry level way of dealing with the mind. Most foundational part of the mind, is our awareness. We're born into awareness, we are there as infants, we can experience our senses, we can experience in time, our mind. So awareness, just pure, simple knowing, knowing that I'm alive knowing that I have sight, I have sound your thoughts, test, not basic consciousness, and to begin to learn how to rest in that natural self and that essential self. And that basic part of us would read last, because he spends our time in the mind dealing with metal objects, mental experiences, stress, etc. But we don't actually rest the foundational elements of the mind, which is a simple, pure being this presence and awareness.
Greg Voisen
Well, what about the, you know, many times meditation, they talk about the monkey mind. And you know, really a lot of people ruminate. I'm going to use the word ruminate. They ruminate on things over and over and over and over and over again. Right. And one of the techniques it's taught is really about how to quiet the monkey mind. On the other hand, you'll hear a lot of meditation teachers speak about, no, just let that stuff come in and let it be there and accept it for what it is. What would you say about that because I heard it. I hear it both ways. Well, sensory
Elliott Dacher
experiences, thoughts, feelings, images are things that are never going to stop coming. That's the nature of the day to day would narrow mind. It's not a question of that sturdiness, in, there's nothing innate or inherent in a thought or a feeling, or sensory experience that's going to distract us, is how we relate to it. And the relationship we normally have to it is we like it or we don't like it. So we immediately have a preference, we pull it towards us, if we like it, we push it away, we add a drama or a story to it. So we get involved with what goes through the mind. And the natural way of experiencing the mind, there's something to be aware of to be observed the mind you may be observing stillness. Awareness itself, may be observing a thought feeling or image. But if you feed it with interest, you feed it with the story. If you feed it with I like that I don't like it gets bigger, bigger, it stays there in time. So the whole idea is simply to note the way the mind actually works. And be let it be let it just go. It'll stop by itself. Because
Greg Voisen
you give it some time. I know I went to an Easter Sunday service at SRF. I'm a devotee, and it was cold outside and it was drizzling a bit and are all these people in parkas? And you know, the Nan was up there saying, well, now let's meditate. And you're thinking, Man, it's cold. And you know, I'm used to sitting in my house and doing it was kind of funny, because my mind was playing lots of tricks on me. You know, you mentioned something in the book. And you say that in the 70s. And I would say now as well, I don't think it's just the 70s. But you mentioned in the 70s, that meditation is being touted to relieve stress, increase rate relaxation, improve sleep, and our relationships. While meditation does bring temporary relief from those conditions. That this is you say this is the lesser of the aim of meditation. Okay, I get that. Can you speak to the listeners about the deeper benefits of what you call human flourishing and beyond? Because that's really the where we're going with the beyond?
Elliott Dacher
Yeah, well, one begins to access this natural awareness, and begins to rest and begins to watch the world from this. That natural awareness, which is there from the beginning is not contaminated by thoughts, feelings, past history, or anything that's gone before. So it's very simple and has a built in sort of like a perfume, serenity to it, what the Bible calls the peace, that surpasses understanding, that's not to calm this in the ordinary mind, that you get when you work with a variety of techniques. This is a stillness, far more profound, isn't intuitive wisdom, there. There is a deep profound selfless compassion and love there. There is a freedom from the known from all previous experience, trauma, etc. So there are qualities of openness, wholeness, and possibility at rest in his natural self, which have been reduced down when we've taken on this name that we've been given, and filled it with our past experiences, and focus our time on that.
Greg Voisen
You know, between the Zen Teachings and all the various teachings of meditation, there's so many different techniques, there's, there's grief meditation, there's Tang land, there's, you know, and I know many of my listeners know these, right? So it's, no, you're breathing in the heaviness, you're breathing out the release of, of that heaviness to heal the world. From your perspective, because you've been doing meditation for so long, and you've been exposed to so many different meditation techniques. Don't all of these techniques that are being taught, have a similar path to reaching this full union with a higher source? So I think,
Elliott Dacher
I think they both all have two aspects to them. One is the improvement of the day to day human life. They all have that. And the other is going beyond that. Most techniques, most methods will focus on improving the quality of day to day life, they will not go beyond that, because a technique or method can't take you to a place that has no techniques or methods, that's non cognitive. And so to really learn how to drop into awareness, presence, our natural self, without a technique, without a method is to learn how to rest and that more and more during the day as well as during the formal practice session. So in a sense, you can say the old lead to the same place, but they really don't. If you purchase Made them most of them are we satisfied with the commerce, so mind, and that's it.
Greg Voisen
So you'll get the relaxation, and you'll get the relief from stress and maybe improve your, your sleep. But you may not get to the very deep point. And we're gonna let our listeners go on a very brief little meditation with you. And I'm going to tell them to, there'll be a link to Amazon to the book into your website. But the reality is, is that you also have in this book, a QR code, and we'll get to that we'll talk about it. So you've got some of these meditations recorded. Now, you cite a great poem from France and Francis Thomas, called the Hound of Heaven. I thought it was great. You've cited actually several poems within the in your book. Can you tell the listeners a bit about Thompson and the significant meaning of the poem, and this that, you know, this irrepressible urge that quickens what you call the soul and spirit toward recognized recognition and reunion of the true self or the divine essence.
Elliott Dacher
While Thompson was a young British man, went to medical school, much like I did, gave that a very early in life, to write poetry and literature, how to go on that life ended up on the streets, addicted to opioids, I had a very difficult life. And eventually it was taken in by someone who recognizes poetry as being of great value. And in his recovery from opiates, spent many years at an English Catholic priory. And it was yeah, they wrote the Hound of Heaven.
Greg Voisen
He died at 47, right, and 47, correct,
Elliott Dacher
have tuberculosis. He wrote that wonderful walk about this urge that we all feel, it may take different forms, because the sense that we know there's nothing more there's something more, there's something chasing us is something yet we haven't touched in life is same office enough, we really can't put it in words. And so this poem speaks about, in his sense, God, but it could be our basic self, our deeper nature, our essence, is constantly trying to pull us back home, to the source to the richness and depth of human life and will let us go because no Hound is quiet. And it is talked for a long period of time, it's patient, and it keeps on coming. And many of us feel that, but we turn to the wrong place, we turn to outside things, which cannot give us that heaven. And we often turn to meditation techniques or other techniques, which get it was quiet, but we're gonna lose the heaviness there.
Greg Voisen
Do you think Thompson and you know, I've, I haven't had Michael POLIN on the show, but I've read many of his books. And, you know, there's a lot of people today that doing ayahuasca and the opioids that the Thompson took, obviously give you an altered state of consciousness as a result of and you're a doctor, so you get this, I don't need to talk about it too much. But there are people that are trying to get into different states or levels of consciousness as a result of micro dosing, various plant based substances that will alter the mind. Alright, so the question I would have for you, do you believe that Thompson, from his opioid use, got himself to a different space? I would like to really know that from an MD standpoint.
Elliott Dacher
Well, the book that I liked the most on this is William James, the writer of Varieties of Religious Experience in the 1890s. And he looked at all kinds of different ways in which people had this, what he called the religious mind, this sense of wholeness, completeness, fullness, flow, serenity, joy, whether that was drugs or whether that was a religious experience, or any other form, and he found certain characteristics. The first one is the most essential one, he found in every single experience of the natural self or the Divine Self, with a sacred self. It was first a loss of personal identity, there was a loss of ego is loss of the sense of I was no control, no history, when that dissolves away and all of those experience, what remains is our natural self. We try to achieve the same way with a natural meditation, and that has all the same qualities no matter how you come at it. Its whole is authentically believed to be truth and is generally transient. Almost one really practices and works with it. But the key is the dissolution or the lack of investment, or rumination on the personal self. That personal self dissipates. What remains is their largest self. You know,
Greg Voisen
there's a doctor here in Del Mar, Steve Berman, and I think I introduced you to him I'm not certain of I did or not, but he wrote healing beyond pills and potions. And he like you, he was an emergency room doctor. You weren't exactly that. But he did that for 25 plus years. He's in his mid-70s now, and he's, he is my hypnotist. Interestingly, back then he was hypnotizing his patients before they would go under surgery, he would do hypnosis, the ones that would accept it. And what I found interesting about his technique was the ability to really get into this altered state of consciousness pretty rapidly as a result of hypnosis. Any thoughts about that before we go on to the five minute meditation?
Elliott Dacher
Well, I think it's really quite easy to drop into one's natural self. That's the ministerial thing. I've been teaching meditation for 30 or more years. And I found now last number years, as I just without techniques, just type people into the natural self. It's very simple. It's not complicated. Why is it not complicated, because it's already always there, it's not creating something, it's moving away. The obscurations, the veils, which is basically the personal self and his thoughts, feelings, images, problems, concerns, habits, and so on. So it's quite easy to actually introduce people to this much easier than struggling with the technique, because most techniques are trying to deal with mental noise ends up creating a struggle. Well, if you
Greg Voisen
want to be in this state, and I remember what the nuns said, Sunday was to move from the ego consciousness to the soul consciousnesses, which is what we actually seek. It really is about your practice of meditation, because the ego consciousness is always there, you're never gonna get rid of it. The reality is how do you live with it? Right. And I think that's a big one. I think a great way for people that are on the other end of this call to actually get an experience might be just like right now, a five minute brief meditation if you'd be willing to take us down that path, or maybe not even five minutes. But
Elliott Dacher
as long as you think we would
Greg Voisen
be to kind of drop in, because you know, there's nothing like the true experience. Here we are on Zoom 1000s of listeners, this is your great opportunity, everybody to actually have Elliott, talk us through and get us to an altered state of consciousness.
Elliott Dacher
Well, I think we can do in every few minutes said two things, I want to show two very natural experiences. The first one will be calming the mind with breathing. We took two sides, every minute those that built into ventilators a size, the deep breath in, out. And a Resting, resting in no breath at all, just a sensation of the breath. That resting in the breath. There cannot be cognition there. Because it turns off, suppresses restless has aspects of the brain called neural default mode. So a very quick, natural way of quieting the mind. So we're going to do that first. Deep breath in. Just hold and rest in the cessation of breath at the end of the exploration. Experience the stillness that's naturally there. No technique. Yeah. Deep breath in. Stillness is naturally there. The presence of beingness. There cannot be any restless mind when the breathing is ceased. And the breathing cessation at the end of an inspiration and exploration is normally there. To go a little further, we're gonna go back to the normal breath. Now you could do that practice longer. And it's preliminary, that'll quiet the course noise of the mind. We now can just go to a normal breath on that slow, harmonious easy, which kind of simulates his breath hold. And then you come into the very present moment. Just come into the here and now. Sense of observing sense of awareness. Just being, nothing to do. No place to go. No one to be. Just like oh, hold sense of your personal self. Thoughts, feelings, judgments, ideas, beliefs. Put them aside for the moment. Just be aware of when what remains simple awareness simple presence, thoughts, feelings, images arises a will have a Teflon awareness, let them be let them go through natural background if you don't pay attention or feed them with attention or interest they'll dissipate on their own. And what's left? Is this awareness. So there's no fighting with our pencil commentary. There's just been with
Elliott Dacher
us, okay? Who cares? It's not about me. It's not who I am. Awareness, presence beings whose muscles should also be activated right restless aspects of the mind. Hearing the now experience that nothing is she has everything that's here right now. Already, always.
Greg Voisen
Thank you for that. That was, you know, when you do a podcast show like this, and you go into something like that I've done this before. And from my listeners, you get it. But you can already tell that the way Elliott approaches this meditation beyond is certainly unique. And for all those who've never meditated, who actually took a few minutes with us just then. Thank you for that. And for all of you who are regular meditators, I hope you receive something different, you will definitely from reading his book, I know I did, you can get it in Kindle version as well. And so the book is, is out there, it's on Amazon. So please go pick up a copy of meditation and beyond. You know, Elliott, you mentioned in the book that the second aim of man, meditation is transcendence, or transcendent. That is going beyond our acquired personal identity, which you just mentioned in the meditation, to the foundational essence of our being. How can our listeners take the leap in their meditation practice to go deeper? Or maybe it isn't a leap? But in my estimation, I think for many, it is a leap. What would you say about that? Because everybody seeks This? This? I don't think this isn't something that if you're alive and living and aware that you don't seek as a matter of fact, you wish you could sustain this state all day long, right? I noticed and I've actually gotten to see the Dalai Lama speak many times in person, and I was just dumbfounded by how happy and how often he laughs You know, you're just like, this guy's laughing all the time. It's like every other third sentence he's going you know, and I, I respect him for that. Because I think that happiness is so apparent, and somebody who obviously seems so calm, okay, so speak with transit.
Elliott Dacher
Well, the pope transcending what we're going beyond is our belief, our belief that we are our personal identity, his personal identity was not there at birth, they gave us a name you name is Mary, Mary, Mary, Mary. And then a lifetime of this Mary becomes a container for all of the life experiences that we've had, that are all that we then call ourself. That's what we believe we are. So we're transcending is the belief that the tenacious belief that we are this personal self? Now once we can move beyond that, through understanding through meditation, we open up the self-revealing presence, the self-revealing essence of self and its qualities of human flourishing, because it's your Ready there. So what we do is simply move away, we move away, we lose faith in his personal self, we have this more desire to have this place inside. Now then we have to let go of the seeker and the seeking, because the seeking and seeking are also an ego event, they're an ego structure. So they help us in the beginning. But then we have to go into the kind of meditation we went into without any expectation, desires, attachment, hope, control, because all of that is ego. As long as that's there, the veil is all part. So we learned to just let all of that go. And just simply, easily, naturally, carefree. Just be set simple.
Greg Voisen
It is. It is a practice now. And I and that's why they call it the practice of meditation. Maybe practice isn't the right word. But I think that it still is in when you awaken to your true self, by practicing what you call awareness based meditation. And that's the ultimate aim. Is this awareness? Right? I think that's all we really have to be is to be aware. And if we are aware of what we're doing to ourselves and others around us, we can change something, because it's really about how do we alter? How do we change? What ways can our listeners reduce this sub conscious egoic nature that separates themselves from soul and spirit? I know this is a pretty deep question. But the reality is, is that I had to get it in because I thought, hey, how it because it's always separating us from the source.
Elliott Dacher
Whereas there is a level of disillusionment and frustration that comes about our culture tells us that this home that we lost, when we left, our youth is natural self, that will get it back by going out there, by through name through faith, through achievement recognition, through money through sexuality through intimacy, that we will get some permanent replacement for the home, we lost, we lost our infancy. So we will eventually develop the recognition, wait a minute, all these things out there and not giving it to me. I see very wealthy people, not happening for them either. I see very famous people not happening for them, either. We begin to have a disillusionment that this self and it's seeking in the outside world for can only be found inside, we went through that disillusionment, begin to chip away a little bit. And they will begin to have these experiences, these moments of nature, intimacy, beauty, art, where all of a sudden, with thrust into a state of flow. And that flow that we receive in any of those kinds of circumstances, is momentary and transient. But if we look, we'll see our egos are not there. So we have moments. So we're touching this place, naturally, where we get to orient ourselves more towards that experience, without having the bend be dependent on circumstance to create it. So slowly become more familiar with the joy of a natural self. And at the same time, increasingly disillusioned with our efforts in the outside world, which are what our culture has taught us to do, because we stopped teaching, searching outside was not inside our own economy will collapse.
Greg Voisen
Yeah, I think that the people that want to use some kind of plant based medicine, they're trying to hasten it, it's almost like well, I've never had the experience I want. And I want to speed it up. I want to make this happen quicker, I want to make it happen better, I want to do whatever. But the reality is, is that you have everything within you to get there without using some mind altering medicine. And in your book on chapter and the mind body, you talk about the limitations of the medical model that reduces health and disease to solely biological factors. And I think, you know, the we live in a society that's spending an excess of a trillion dollars on health care today. And it doesn't seem to be getting any better. And you were a doctor for so long internal medicine. And if there's anybody that had an opportunity to not only see patients, but probably operate on patients and see what's going on inside the body and how we create this disease, it would be somebody like you and it always fascinates me about how many consciously aware individuals physicians who've gone through all of this training, like you and Steve and many others who've been on the show, end up doing like functional medicine or ended up doing medicine. Haitian programs are ended up doing all these alternative practices, which are not conventional and fundamentally the medicine that you were taught, how can we reach a whole healing by understanding the power of the mind and the healing process? Because there are a lot of people that would like to heal.
Elliott Dacher
Yeah, I think the first thing we have to do, of course, there are many approaches that are could be helpful. Biofeedback, acupuncture, and so on. But I think ultimately, when you look at the Dalai Lama, as you were saying, you see joy on his face had a piece, that's what I saw the first time I saw him, that's what took it into you over 12 years, yearly, three to six months a year to study with them, because there's something of well-being that is there. And even to the extent that the mind and the spirit want to actualize can lessen that and help remedy disease. More than that, it provides wellbeing, well-being is not related to the presence or absence of disease. Well, being is a state of health. You and I have seen people die in great despair. We've also seen people die, and Greg, Craig, grace and peace, what is the difference, the death is the same in both the differences that is held a different ways held in the soul, and in the spirit, and here's well-being there to the very end. So it's important to separate the issue of wellbeing, happiness and health from the issue of disease, you can be quite well, and your soul and your spirit and that piece, and still have physical disease. So we get to for one, we get access to a permanent and unchanging source of well-being. And we begin to lessen the factor of an abnormal mental state in the presence of particularly chronic disease.
Greg Voisen
How much do you believe, Elliott, that it's how one relates to their finitude from a standpoint of understanding their finitude to actually be at peace with the fact that we're only given a certain number of years here, we never know when, right. COVID was a great example of that and taught people I think a lot about how precious life is. What would you say about the relationship to understanding, just death, many of the people think of that as permanent, I think I'm not, obviously I do spirituality program on spirituality or as well. So I have my own opinions about it. But 1000s of my listeners, I'm sure don't believe the same thing that I believe about reincarnation, or any of that. I probably even have some atheists that are listened to the show. So what would you say just from, I wouldn't say a scientific standpoint, but just from the educational standpoint of how one is able to remove the fears associated with finitude. Because, you know, you see some people that go into there I have a father who was in his 90s. He's so afraid of dying. Right. And, and I guess there's got to be a connection between that fear and the willingness to let go.
Elliott Dacher
Yes, I mean, I would say who is it that's fearing? Is it the deeper natural self that's fearing? Where's the ego self-fearing is Lois? Well, I'm sure it's the ego self. Right. So the problem again, is, to the extent that we are entire focus is preserving our ego, our I, of which our attachment to the body is a big part of it. To the extent that that's there, we're going to suffer that loss. But when people are in this natural state of being, if you ask them whether there's any time, they'll say, no, you ask them zestoretic, do you have a beginning and an end? They'll say no, is an entirely different experience, how outside the ego, in terms of life and death. And so, again, is the ego that's afraid, so long as we're living in that ego structure, I have no other alternative, deeper I are going to suffer. That is
Greg Voisen
that is very simply put and very true. To me. It's true to me. You know, you have a chapter called homecoming. And you ask the question, why is it so difficult to see through the core truth of our life to the essence of who we are, and have always been? You state we've forgotten who we are and deeply believe in who we are not. Again, much of what we've been talking about in this podcast so far. Up till now What advice do you have to awaken to the true self, and realize what we are capable of becoming? Because to me, human flourishing, is really about what our potential is about what we can become. I've had Steven Kotler on here many times, he's the head of the flow Genome Project. He's written six books, he's prolific about the study of hacking flow, right? I'm not 100% Certain you can hack flow. But there are people out there who are certainly attempting to hack flow, what would you say about getting to this, this true, who we are not who we believe we are?
Elliott Dacher
Well, to begin with the text, the devotion, that is the devotion that comes from having tasted, we all have a foreknowledge of what that places what that sacred, divine places, we've all had that experience, maybe in Charleston, other moments in life, as I mentioned, before, we all have a taste of that. And that taste has to become strong enough. And the frustration or disillusionment with the ego seeking has become strong enough that you kind of cross a point, a pivotal point, in which you say, you know, there's no more while worthwhile effort, in terms of investing in trying to take extract from the world, Joe harvest from the world, a permanent happiness or serenity or peace. It's not there that way, through the ego. And at the same time, I've touched the place where it, which is golden, the, it's live that way every day would be heaven on earth. And I want that. And then, you know, when I started really into this journey, it was when I saw the Tibetans in Dharamsala, the first time, I looked on their faces that Oh, my God, they've got what I want, like that movie, you know, I want which, which he just that. And I went back for three to six months a year for 12 years to study with him. I'm not saying that's what everybody has to do. We can reach it easily, more quickly, with the right kind of help. But it has that double threat. That sense, you know, one more relationship, one more title, one more degree, is not going to give me sustained peace and happiness. I don't want to die without it. And yeah, I
Greg Voisen
think that's I think you hit the nail on the head, sustained peace and happiness. You know, the Dalai Lama, which you said you studied under, it's almost like he's got a sustained peace and happiness, I think, at the center of a tornado at the core. It's really that is, you know, could you just stand there, right? And the essence, yes, you could, if you were at the center, everything else is chaos, you know, the velocity, the winds and everything. But I think that's a good example of being able to stand in the midst of all that's going on today, and still be able to keep our peace and happiness is something that's really quite profound. Because most of us are drawn into the Maya, of all of this stuff. Right. And it's, it's, it's an allure, but it's so temporary. All of it's so temporary, the only thing that is permanent is peace and happiness. And, you know, you share in your book 10 session audio practices through a QR code that people can access for 15 minute practices, and all they got to do is put their phone up to the QR code and download it or it'll take them to the page, can you speak about the audio recordings of what the listeners can expect?
Elliott Dacher
These are 10 recordings, which progressively take the individual, there's a few minutes of teaching on each one. And then meditation mostly through the kind of meditation we did before. But in a more progressive way, a little bit more detailed, kind of graded depth. So it's a way of taking somebody through that process. So they have somebody with them meaning in this case, and so they come to a place where they're learning the whole time about their personal self, doubt the true self, and so on. So this meditation is 10 session progression of what we did today.
Greg Voisen
Well, it's a great opportunity, folks. And inside the book, you'll see it there. There's a QR code, when you get the book, whether it's a Kindle version, or if you want to hold the book up again, that would be great whether you buy the physical copy of the book or not. You literally have that QR code in there to get to these and I haven't been through them yet, but I'm going to so Eliana, I would say, great for you for putting those in. Because that's very experiential. It's not just reading words on the page. It's really listening to something and being able to do something with it. Now, to kind of wrap up our interview, meditation is a great opportunity for people to heal so much of their lives, so many elements of their lives, and most importantly, to connect, as you've been talking about, throughout this interview our true self, which requires a deeper dive into the practice, in other words, meditation and beyond not just to get relief from stress temporarily, or to build a relationship, what three things would you inform our listeners about to help them find their true self, Elliott?
Elliott Dacher
Well, first of all, the begin to recognize that you are not and we're not born, your personal self, and you are not your personal self, and the personal self cannot, cannot achieve what is only there within sight. To realize it's only inside, that we can achieve this sustained peace, happiness, joy, and delight that we're all aiming for. And to self-remember, during the day and only practice during day, remember, just stop for a moment, maybe take one of those deep breaths and halls and just say who am I? Who am I? I Am, I exist, I'm aware. That's why was the very beginning. So visited, momentarily during the day, multiple times, visited during practice. And if we can self-remember, these little islands of transcendent experience, our deeper self will become larger landmasses. And slowly, it will underlie the foundation of our day to day life. So instead of our day to day experiences, dropping into the ego structure, with Oles reactivity, interpretation, judgment and so on, our day to day activity drops into stillness, peace, joy, ease, and it makes everything different on the outside, or different on the inside. So those are the things I would do, to really be aware of the personal self, the self that goes beyond that. Practice, remembering who we are and what we truly are.
Greg Voisen
And for my listeners, we balance that out with Elliott Dacher, he's got a book out called Meditation and Beyond, we'll put links to that we'll put links to his website, please go visit the website, please go use that QR code as that's there. Elliott's been an honor and pleasure to have you back on inside personal growth, to speak about your new book, and to give some greater level of awareness about what meditation can do, and what people are capable of doing as a result of these practices. And I want to say Namaste, to Eliot and all my listeners that are out there. See the God within yourself, but Namaste, it's there and use these practices, to better your life, and to better the lives of people around you because of the way that because of who you've become as a result of doing these practices, Namaste to Eliot, thanks for your time today. So appreciate you and all that you're doing to help heal the world.
Elliott Dacher
Thank you. My pleasure. And thank you for this work to brings to other people these new approaches and ideas.
Greg Voisen
My pleasure.
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Inside Personal Growth with Greg Voisen · Podcast 1004: Leadership Breakdown with Eric KaufmannMy guest for this episode is my good friend Eric Kaufmann. He is actually a return guest but his prior guesting here was way back 2014 for my 484th episode. He is now back to share his latest book Leadership Breakdown: How Conscious Leaders Generate Breakthroughs that Enrich Business and the World.
Eric is the President and Founder of Sagatica LLC which is an executive development consultancy and has served Sony, T-Mobile, and hundreds of leaders of Fortune 1,000 companies. Their goal is to guide leaders and coaches in making better decisions and achieving better results. Eric also has a range of skills and perspectives in keynote speaking and management consulting.
Aside from his company, Eric uses the world of publishing to share his skills and thoughts. His latest one, Leadership Breakdown: How Conscious Leaders Generate Breakthroughs that Enrich Business and the World, is for leaders that want to claim their power, activate their potential, and switch on their teams. This book is an entertaining and enlightening journey to uncover the three aspects of conscious leadership: wisdom, love, and power.
If you’re interested and want to know more about Eric and what he does, you may click here to visit their website.
I hope you enjoy my engaging interview with Eric Kaufmann. Happy listening!
You may also refer to the transcripts below for the full transciption (not edited) of the interview.
Interview Transcipt -Not EditedEmailDownloadNew TabGreg Voisen
Welcome back to Inside Personal Growth. This is Greg Voisen the host of Inside Personal Growth. And joining us from San Diego is Eric Kaufmann. And Eric has a new book out called Leadership Breakdown. And the subtitle is How Conscious Leaders Generate Breakthroughs that Enrich Business and the World. Good day Eric, how are you doing?
Eric Kaufmann
I am great. Greg, wonderful to be here with you and to see you again.
Greg Voisen
Well, it's a pleasure seeing you he and I got to meet just prior to actually doing this podcast. And we had a nice talk about the book and a bunch of other things. And it was a lot of fun. And one of my listeners know, we'll put a link Eric has several books. But the book that we did an interview for it was podcast 484 leadership as a hero's journey. And I was telling Eric, that was back in 2014. I can't believe that it's been nine years since we've actually done a podcast together. But that is been nine years ago. That's a very interesting podcast because I was listening to pieces of it. I'm gonna let our audience know a little bit about you, Eric, before we get dive into this juicy book that every conscious leader should read, understand and gain the wisdom from his work as a coach, author and speaker is shaped by a journey which includes two decades of leadership coaching and consulting management roles at Fortune 100 firms, degrees in business in psychology, 30 years of Zen practice living in Israel and South Africa, teaching as master scuba diver diving instructor working as a certified hypnotherapist and meditating in a year long retreat in an isolated Caveny built in the mountains of New Mexico. If you want to know more about Eric and his team and his company that does coaching, you can go to Sagatica s-a-g-a-t-i-c-a.com. That's got a .com. There you can learn about their services and the books that he's written in his newsletter. I encourage everybody to do that. Well, Eric, again, we're back to talking to you. Oops, stropped it, about this book. And the journey through this book, as I was reviewing it was really, really interesting. And we talked when we met in Del Mar, about David Bronner, the CEO of Bronner's all one magic soap company. Most of our listeners out there probably know about it, you've seen it at Costco, it's around. He writes that your work has helped him to understand early on that a cosmic leader he called himself. I thought that's interesting that his ideas push the envelope of what people believe is possible. How have you helped David become more of a conscious leader? And can you define what a conscious leader is? For our listeners?
Eric Kaufmann
The first thing that I'm going to say is, you know, David is a remarkable leader right then in both business and way beyond the business and so the larger community so when you ask, how did I work with him and how do I define conscious leadership? There were three features. I think there are three things that I can think of that make him remarkable. One is his to your point that he calls himself the CEO, the chief? No, the cosmic engagement cosmic officer, right? You know, the first thing about him is he's genuinely committed to this idea of all one, the oneness of all things. And the second thing that's remarkable about him is he's deeply curious. And the third is that he's really fond of paradox, and where things don't quite make sense of how to make sense of them. And those are actually three really salient features of a conscious leader, right? Understanding the interconnectedness of all of life, how everything depends on everything else, and everything is affected by everything else. And there's cause and effect all around us, and being really deeply curious about, you know, yourself, other people the world around you, and not shying away from paradox and the and the sort of, you know, hard to fathom, but embracing it, you know, that's kind of, you know, paradox is, is an opening to mystery, you know, because we are at the edge of our logic and reason, and we're faced with paradox, how could this and this happened at the same time. And when we face into that, we are actually growing in consciousness. And so in our time together, he came to realize one of the things that I think I've really worked with David and with other leaders is that there is no organizational transformation without personal fascination, if you're the CEO, you're the leader, the company doesn't change without you making some changes, right. And so I think I've been really helpful for David in the ongoing coaching and application of this sort of professional and personal development, that, by his own account, has supported his vision of being more influential with his executive team while still cultivating collaboration and trust. So I think the net result has been more distributed power, more distributed responsibility, and then his team more accountability and more empowerment. So
Greg Voisen
well, it's a, as you know, for most people like David, and there are other leaders out there like them, lots of them. It's really more about we than me, it's really more about connection, verse and cooperation, versus competition. They know all of those elements, and they leave them all the way down to who they are, as people. And I've met leaders like that, that are really that committed. And it is interesting to find them and you state that business leaders of today are the de factores de facto shapers of society, you then go on to mention that our capitalistic system has trained them to beat the competition, to ensure the winners take all speak with us about the stewardship responsibility and the share and shareholder capitalism. Because if these two elements are embedded inside of an organization, you do see so much more cooperation than competition. And this is the way that the world needs to evolve. Because if we're going to solve any of our problems, as the Dalai Lama says, we all need to be more compassionate with one
Eric Kaufmann
another. We all need to be more compassionate with one another. That's one aspect that, you know, you asked me before the definition of a conscious leader, and we're getting into it, right? What is this stewardship component that's part of that, I would define in the simplest way that the conscious leader is a leader who leads with wisdom, love and power. Right, and we'll get more into it. I know we'll go forward. But, you know, this said, you know, the shareholder capitalism that we're familiar with is an invention that basically came along somewhere around 250 or so years ago, right around the time of the Industrial Revolution, right? So we've had 250 years of this kind of capitalist model that is based on competition, eliminating the competition. I mean, I remember when I came out of college, and I went into my first sales job, my sales manager, my colleagues, everyone around us was like, win at all costs. Right? Destroy the competition.
Greg Voisen
Weren't you selling copiers selling copiers? Yeah. Wasn’t it Xerox?
Eric Kaufmann
It was it was 3am actually then it was a near so we were selling the copiers and it was yeah, it was a grind of a job man. You know, this was we had to carry back hauling around and try and close these scorch marks in the you know, the travel agent didn't even want to see a sales guy coming in hauling Your copier. And so, you know, it was it was competitive, which was intense was,
Greg Voisen
You were your best friend was a rolling cart. It was,
Eric Kaufmann
It was a gurney that had a frickin car.
Greg Voisen
That's wonderful man, those are great stories.
Eric Kaufmann
So, you know, it was, and that's how we were trained. And that's how, you know, our bosses were trained. And you know, that's the sort of the implicit nature of this kind of highly competitive space. And that's fine. By the way, this is one of the beautiful, the beautiful, sort of notions of a paradox is you can have competition. And you can have collaboration. Yes. So there's there isn't, there isn't a discussion here, Greg. And conscious leadership as in don't want to be competitive, because who the hell is gonna listen to that, and that makes no sense. When we want to compete against our own Malays. We want to compete on our own against our own, you know, my daughters when they were swimming, competing in swimming, and water polo, it was all about, you know, what was called PRs, right? The personal records, you want to beat your personal records up, or you want to beat the competition and this collaboration, it's not just collaboration, right? It's the fact that to your point about leaders have become the de facto shapers of society. That's the real issue here, right? Tick tock, Facebook, Fox News, MSNBC, Apple, Google, these juggernauts of business, they are defining what beauty means, what comfort means, what information we uptake, what we believe in what we believe to be true, right? how we feel about the environment, how do we feel about our neighbors. That's why it's so critical that these de facto shapers of society began to realize that they are not just, you know, gaining from the commercial value, they are shaping. And so now the corporations, by the way, corporations are run by humans, right? Executives, they have this responsibility to be stewards, because they have so much power, because they have so much authority, because they have so much influence they have now landed in the place with they are the stewards, you either take care of this sort of total ecosystem of humanity, or you screw it up. And we're seeing evidence of both right now.
Greg Voisen
While they're playing such an important role in the psyche of individuals. I mean, it's one thing to speak about our environment. But when you really look at the minds of individuals being shaped by what they consume, exactly, I will say that, that the reality that is what defines our future. Because you know, as they believe so they create, so if you're going to create this world, and I, you know, you and I were talking about the Aztecs and Yukon, before we got on because we both live here in San Diego, and we would have liked to have seen them to win, but it's not about a win. It's about the journey toward that that the team played, and how far they actually made it and the congratulations that should be given to everybody there for even making it that far. Because they learned so much, you know, you learned so much whether you win or you lose, you learn. It's what you take away from the situation. And you had an epiphany, on your journey to conscious leadership. And I think if you could tell the listeners a bit about your seclusion, I mentioned it in the introduction, by living alone in the cabin in the mountains and giving away all your material possessions. And that's certainly a Zen thing. There's going to be some people that are listening that will certainly relate to that. And it's not that all people who join Zen Buddhism do that. But there is something about releasing all of our worldly possessions to really get closer and make a connection to realize the oneness with the universe. And what did you realize about yourself and the world that you were living in?
Eric Kaufmann
Greg, that is a huge question. I should clarify. Because a lot of people asked me this. I was not married at the time.
Greg Voisen
Yeah, no, you clarified that point. You wouldn't have gotten away with it. If you were married.
Eric Kaufmann
Everyone as well. How did your wife put up you began for a year? I'm like, no, I didn't have a wife at the time. That's how I could be gone for a year. But I mean, what did I realize, you know, one of the I'll cut to the chase, interestingly, one of the most profound realizations I had and there were there were many, but actually, I was going to your point. I had been really intensely involved in my spiritual and meditation and Zen practices, and I was working in corporate and I came to a point When I felt like I was at a crossroads, right, turn right and go down the familiar path of my corporate journey and get promoted, become an authority, more authority, more responsibility, become GM CEO, or turn left, follow my heart, follow my spirit, explore this kind of oneness of all life and the spiritual life and the meaning of life and live in sort, sort of solitary way to really go deep. And be connected with spirit. And I decided to go right, and to know which one I say, left, and leaves a familiar, go way beyond my comfort zone. And drop off the grid and you know, give my stuff away, shave my head, build a cabin, and so forth. There's so much I can talk about. But you know, one of the most profound realizations I had in the midst of sort of minding my own business, they're getting really quiet. You know, and it was interesting, because I had, you know, getting quiet wasn't a given, you know, I had to really work at it. I mean, I've been, I was meditating eight, 910 hours a day, I met my shadow, and I almost lost my mind, I had to come face to face with my inner critic, and learn to befriend it, and to even love it, and ultimately have a fall silent. And when I got to the quietest, most sort of unified, transcended state of, of my being, I had this revelation. The revelation was, you're going the wrong way. The revelation was the deeper spiritual evolution for you, which is with wife and children and service to community. That blew my socks off, you know, because I was that was done, I was very, I was gone from the world, right. And suddenly, in this quiet moment, to recognize that relationship service, you know, being generative, making a contribution is a spiritual path. That is profoundly instructive. And evolutionary, was a great learning. And I found that you know, what, what brought me through this intense experience of that seclusion was these three elements of wisdom, love and power. And that's really became sort of like, okay, so bring that into the world, right? How do you bring that as a husband, as a father, as a community man, as a leader, as a coach, as a friend? And that's been the last 20 plus years of play for me?
Greg Voisen
Well, it's, it's great that you let our listeners know about that and know what the realization was. And I think many of us and I'm going to make a comment even to myself, think about, hey, no, I want to go off to India and go to an ashram or live in a, you know, in a cave for a while and meditate for however many months or more a year. And I know, I study under people who've done silent meditations, haven't spoken for like a full year, in a silent meditation. In other words, a husband and wife, they couldn't sleep together. They literally were apart. These are the people that had been teaching me meditation for years, I'll put a shout out to Dr. And Joel, Michelle Levy, that the interesting thing is, is that the realization is that we all feel better internally, like you said, when we're making a contribution, some kind of contribution, the contribution, contribution to our family a contribution to the world, but making a contribution. And that appears in so many different ways. And in your way, it's actually working with people, getting them to understand that that's what they need to do. And I won't just say make a contribution or be say, hey, what can I do to change the world for the better? You know, that's a big statement. You know, Dr. Bronner's soap, environmentally friendly, sustainable, you know, a company that does those kinds of things. And there's many of them, you know, and you write in the book that the number one barrier to executive effectiveness is ego myopia. Why is that so? And what are the three functions that you write about in the book of the ego? Egos talked about a lot, but
Eric Kaufmann
yeah, you guys talked about a lot, you know, I was on my own spiritual journey, and my own personal journey, and certainly, I talked, you know, we talked just a moment ago about living in the cabin there for a year and that was a silent year for me as well. Right. So living in that way I really came face to face with His ego construct, right this this notion of the ego. And, you know, if we're going to grow and be more conscious, we fundamentally have to take into account how do we become less self-centered, you talk about contribution, my contribution is about tending to, and giving to, and caring for and attending to others, whether that's one other many others the entire world, but it is extending beyond our ego, some of that motivation is still isn't, you know, ego based, I want to feel good, I want to look good, I want to be recognized. Fine, that's part of it. And part of it is really, about, it's more than just me. And the term ego myopia is the term that I came up with, as I looked around and said, What is the sort of what is getting in the way of leaders being effective of relationships being, you know, satisfying of life being meaningful, and it comes to this ego myopia the inability to see and manage our ego, this sort of narrow view of self but small, contained and separate? Now, for the record, before we go any further, there is no way to sort of be rid of the ego, that's not my objective, my recommendation, my invitation, the ego has, you know, it's a thing with the thing we need, it's it, it has a function and a purpose. But being caught in it being myopic, being narrow, is the sort of the I don't know, it's the ground of being it's the baseline of where we get all these problems. And a conscious leader, by definition, is somebody who is going to extend their consciousness beyond this ego myopic state. So
Greg Voisen
I think that's a great definition. And it, you know, I think one of the things that some traditions use is, you know, they may call it the Maya, and people get caught into the Maya. It's the ego that assists you in getting caught into the Maya. Now that is, that is where some people land, but as long as they have awareness, I think the most important thing is awareness. And I want to write I want to talk about when you clear away ego myopia, you say, it also clears away the drivers of leadership breakdowns. And you if you would talk with us about how the ego creates leadership breakdowns? Because it does. And you've actually identified key words about what those breakdowns are. And I think those three words that you used in the book are really key elements of that. And I actually talking about prejudice, anger, anger and denial. Oh,
Eric Kaufmann
there's a lot of keywords in the book. So
Greg Voisen
but that's, but that's the three blocks to wisdom, I think, to get to a place where you understand that the ego is driving you, you have to release the prejudices and the anger and the denial.
Eric Kaufmann
Yeah. So I love that you pull that out, you know that the ego myopia gets in the way and creates these breakdowns of sort of, you can think of it in three levels, right? And then I'll get into the how to how to correct the ego myopia. But at the organizational level, right, we have ego, we have breakdowns, if you think about you know, way back in the day, Polaroid was like, Polaroid was like, the word was the brand for photography, right? And then Polaroid ignored the changing landscape around them to digital photography, and so forth. And that what was that that was known as a myopic view, that was a bunch of executives sitting around being unwise, right, not really looking below the surface and beyond the obvious, they were too caught in their own arrogance. And they thought we were unbeatable, and there came iPhone and sort of changed their world dramatically. Right? Then you have breakdowns that are interpersonal you know, Frank and an ER, you know, the CEO and the CFO are arguing because they disagree about how to implement a certain KPI. Right and, and now their teams are arguing and now there's discontent between the teams and now you have wasted time you have work arounds, people are frustrated and morale is down. Then you have the personal breakdowns, right? If you've ever felt like I'm an imposter. I just don't belong here. If you've ever felt like I shouldn't speak up at a meeting. Those are internal, sort of ego myopic elements that lead to breakdown break down because you're not going to be as efficient or you're going to be micromanaging whatever the case might be. So, you know, the ego is wrapped around these three needs the need to be right. Right, I want to be right, I want to be competent, I want to be known for how smart I am and what contributions we have the need to be liked. I want to be included connected in community seen known, and I want to have might want to have power control authority, autonomy, some ability to influence my environment. And those three needs the need to be liked and need to be right. They need to have might, that's where we start getting really unskillful and either too passive when we pull away or to active when we are aggressive. And that's where all these breakdowns really begin. It's not about strategy. It's not about ops, it's about people. And it's about these ego needs that are unmet.
Greg Voisen
Yeah, it's so true what you say and mean, it's, you know, they, I think there's one thing that we could say, and that's before you make a comment you talked about to people deciding about their KPI and having an argument or whatever. The key would be to take a deep breath, and really think about what you're going to say, there's one thing that I could tell people has saved me so many times, and I'm sure you probably as well, is this whole aspect of coming back to ourselves through breathing? And just taking a deep breath taking it in? And realizing, you know, what am I saying and understanding or finding a different way to say it? And you write about the triad for conscious leadership, and you just talked about wisdom, love power? Can you speak with us about this triad? Why it's so important when leading an organization into the future? And why this allows leaders to pursue profits while tending to people's needs. Also, if you would define wisdom, love and power from the perspective of a conscious leader.
Eric Kaufmann
Cool. So I might need to take a couple of minutes to run through these. So
Greg Voisen
it's okay. wisdom, love and power are, by the way, folks, I can tell you what page they're defined in the book.
Eric Kaufmann
Right, so I don't have the book in front of me, but I'll roll with it. And okay, getting to the heart of it. Right. So hi,
Greg Voisen
Do you want me to look it up for you?
Eric Kaufmann
I've been thinking about this for a long time.
Greg Voisen
I'm sure you have I'm just kidding.
Eric Kaufmann
Wisdom, essentially, is the capacity to perceive sort of a two levels. One is things that are really nuanced. Therefore, you have insight, right? And on the other hand, is seeing things in a big picture. And that's perspective. And so I defined wisdom as seeing below the surface. That's the insight. And beyond the obvious. That's perspective. No, leadership has just become much more challenging over the years, he talked about going into the future, right? But if we just looked at the presence, it was once kind of a simple set of problems, like how do we get more sales? How do we compensate people for the problems and go from simple problems to complicated problems? How do we collaborate with competitors? How do we structure meaningful HR rules, right, as the business grew in the business environment changed? Now we're in a world of complexity. How do we navigate multiple territories with multiple tax laws in different countries, right, I don't know, how do we manage a supply chain that's global? How do we deal with multicultural workforces? So it's not enough to be smart to manage complexity requires wisdom, which as I mentioned, at the beginning of our conversation, is the ticket for navigating paradox. So wisdom is a requisite element of leading into the future as it's becoming increasingly more complex to lead not less complex. So then, wisdom, let's talk about love, right? Again, in this case, it's twofold. One, it's demonstrating care for people. And it's also listening to your own heart, for your callings, your passion, right. That's what that's what the heart does, right? It both tends to people. And it also has the big dreams for our own life. So from a conscious leadership perspective, I refer to love as giving without expectations. And that really highlights the part of caring for people. You can care for people in an active way, by giving them attention by being compassionate by encouraging their passions and visions. Or you can even sort of hold the space for love in a passive way. Right? By just helping a safe space that people aren't demeaned or isn't, aren't feeling threatened, right. And you probably know this, Greg, but you know, the number one predictor for maintaining good talent, what we call engagement, right? Is a positive relationship with your boss. It has nothing to do with pay, ergonomics free lunches, it has to do with having a leader who cares, who helps their people grow and learn, and doesn't make him feel bad. So that's love. And by the way, going into the future where the talent market is becoming ever more competitive theme, feeling cared for and wanting to be engaged, is a competitive advantage. And then the third one, you asked about his power. And I got, I really hope I'm going along with what I wrote the book, but I seem to be recalling this. Power is, in this compensation, doesn't have anything to do with overpowering or controlling or manipulating other people. Unfortunately, most of us, I wouldn't say all of us, but I don't know that it's true. But almost every person I've ever met, has got some wound about power, because we've been abused or misused by power in our family of origin, at school and our professional journey. So the power that I'm referencing is our ability to really show up to express our skills, our talents, to confidently speak up and share what we have what we have to say, from a conscious leadership perspective. Power is the ability to affect change. And I want to add this, and it might be a little bit controversial, but I'm going to say this that power isn't granted, power is claimed. Now, before we go too far, right, you have to show some power, you have to show some ability to affect change, be confident, express yourself before other people will give you more power. Right, just think about the last person you promoted to an important role. Somebody that you gave more power to right, because you gave them a scope of control, that's greater, you did it because you saw that they already had some power, so you gave them more power. And that's that it's a little controversial, because we talked about being empowered and empowering environments. But you know, power isn't granted, power is clean, you clean power, and then more power comes to you. Now, there are environments that are systematically disempowering, folks, and I'm not defending that in any way, shape, or form. But I want people to consider if you want more power, you know, draw on your innate power to begin to have some and more will come to you.
Greg Voisen
Yeah, and I always remember David Hawking, you know, it's power versus force. Now, that came to me, and it's not, it is power, you do claim power, by your service to others, by your ability to how do you want to say connect the dots, helping people understand and making their work more efficient, more effective. And so that's how you really claim power. You know, obviously use it, these companies are for profit companies, the ones we've been talking about, and the company has to make a profit. So what they need to do to claim the power, if they're a middle line manager, or an upper manager, or whatever it is, is to claim the power by providing tools which are helping everyone else make their job, I don't want to call it always easier, I want to call it more efficient. And that is an important element of power.
Eric Kaufmann
It's a huge element of power. And I know you have real experience of this. And the way to empower others is to claim your own power. Because once you claim your power, you are less likely to feel small or misused, right? And then what happens with people who are empowered is that they empower other people around them. The challenge is that folks who are not empowered can't empower others. And so we have this kind of vicious cycle we're stuck on. So
Greg Voisen
what's the difference between an eight power as a primary source of empowerment versus what you're talking about, which is power can you speak with the people about an eight what an eight power is and what it isn't?
Eric Kaufmann
Great, okay. Yeah, I love that question. So in a power by definition is inherent right? It is, it is our natural energy, our inherent sense of value and from a conscious leadership perspective. It's, it's critical, right? It's not a superpower. It's not a power based on title. It's not a power based in, you know, expertise. It's within you innate power isn't within you, because you're human, I am firmly convinced that we are born with access to our innate inherent natural power. Unfortunately, we are systematically separated from it, right? As a baby, I gotta do what mom wants, and Dad wants, right? I don't really get to do what I want. I, you know, grew up and go to school, and I have to abide by rules and regulations to fit in. In fact, I don't know if they still do, and I think they still do it right. Schools will give citizenship grades, what is the citizenship grade? It says, how effectively are you complying? How effective are you, you know, going along with a system around you? And so what we have is our innate power is our uniqueness. It's our voice. It's our skills, it's our gifts, our energy. And from that comes our confidence and our sense of value. And so I'm not proposing that we kind of throw off the mantle and disrupt everything, I'm proposing that we step forward and be unabashedly unashamed, and persistent in putting on display this beauty this uniqueness is talent of who we are. And if
Greg Voisen
you claim a claim your power, clean your power
Eric Kaufmann
by showing up.
Yeah, what we've
Eric Kaufmann
what we've been trained to do is we've been trained to exchange power for comfort, comfort and fitting in, but when you get comfortable, your power dims, right, and if you want to claim some of your power, you're going to have to play with being uncomfortable, because that's the physical sense of breaking from the status quo.
Greg Voisen
We’ll be the bright light that you were meant to come into this world and become, see what's you know, it's like, hey, if we're talking about power, it's, it takes recharge, to get a Tesla going. And the reality is, it's like a recharge. Everybody can use recharge this book, by the way, I would call it for many leaders, leadership break down, is a recharge, it's a way for you to plug back in, look at things differently. Change your perspective, not be so myopic, as he was saying, Eric, and this is the way to do it. Now. I love this. You speak about that. Presents, plugs, presents meaning right here, and now plugs the power leak of anxiousness. Okay, I get it. Because if I'm present, I'm not going to be anxious. And that inner integrity plugs, the power lead of blaming. Got it? If I have high integrity, I'm not going to be blaming other people. You stated in your training for conscious leadership, you focus on being blameless, and not being deceptive, especially self-professed, deceptive. Can you speak about the power leaks, and any prescriptions that you would have to help our listeners stay in a state of presence and inner integrity?
Eric Kaufmann
Politics, you know, I'm coming from the premise that we are innately powerful, right? The power is innate to us. And so we don't have to necessarily accumulate it. But what happens is we leak it, we leak the power and to your point and you pulled it out and it's in the book anxiousness the leaks I see most commonly for leaders or anxiousness. Were you focusing on the future and you're literally blowing out your energy, people pleasing, right? Where you are so focused on doing things for other people that you're giving your power to them, and blame it, which literally says, I don't have control here, right. Something else is in charge, something else has the power. And so, as you mentioned, presence, authenticity and integrity are to me the way you plug these leaks and presence to your point and you talked about your meditation teachers, I can't speak enough about the value of learning to meditate. I've been doing this for 37 years now. And I'm still a student, right? I'm still learning to do it. But the capacity to actually be here now. And there's a million apps, teachers schools, online forums, I mean, you can learn to meditate anywhere, but it's not a religious thing. It's really a capacity to plug the leak so that your power rebuilds recharges to your point I advise everybody to learn to meditate I put on to them meditation retreats a year. And, you know, I, I can't speak enough about how empowering literally empowering it is.
Greg Voisen
It is. And I want to add Eric, you know, I just signed up, like, literally five days ago for meditation retreat six days in the orcas islands. And I will be three days in silence. And it's interesting when you come away from it and how you feel, you know, you're like, you go back into the world, meaning our world, but I don't even call that the real world, when I've been in meditation retreat feels like I'm coming back to someplace they don't even recognize, right. And I encourage everyone listening, if you haven't been to a meditation retreat, Eric, somebody else's, there's plenty of them out there. It's time for you. Maybe I'm using the wrong term, but it is kind of a way for you to unplug from what you believe, and plugged back into something that gives you a closer connection to who you really are. You know, and you know, it's one thing you don't have to believe everything you think, but I think we go around frequently, thinking and believing that's what it is. And then our biases and everything else that we've talked about come into play. But you hit the nail on the head. Did you want to add more to that?
Eric Kaufmann
Well, I just think that, you know, the meditation is such a central key piece. And then, you know, again, in my book, I write a lot more about plugging these power leaks. But I will just say with blaming and integrity. We are we kid ourselves and fool ourselves and deceive ourselves all the time. We're irresponsible with ourselves to ourselves. I mean, I give an example in the book, but you know, I'll say, today, I'm not going to eat any chocolate because I just want to flush out my system and stop the sugar just for days so I can get her breasts. And then I go downstairs because I work at home now like, you know, so many other people. And in the kitchen, there's a KitKat and I'm like, oh, just to bite the kid. Can I pop it in? Because I frickin love KitKat I gotta be honest with you. And so, you know, did I sin? Is God gonna punish me? No, but there's an inner auditor. Right? I said, I'm going to refrain from chocolate for the day so I can clean myself act of service and kindness and self-love. And then I just broke down and ate that piece of chocolate. I deceive myself, right? It's such a small example. But there are dozens if not hundreds of ins,
Greg Voisen
but you're aware of it. See. But I want to make a point here because my wife's a music teacher and about 15 feet from me on the other side of this wall is a baby grand piano and she teaches kids. And she always gives them she has a candy bowl full. Right? But that means that candy bowl is only 15 feet from me. And when you talk about kid gets I was about racial lab, because it's filled with KitKats. And it's filled with it's filled with Easter chocolate eggs and Reese's Peanut Butter Cups. Right? And I'm thinking to myself, boy, I said that yesterday, and I did the same thing Eric did I ate a KitKat. And I said no, I wasn't gonna go over that bowl and get some. Yeah, it's
Eric Kaufmann
so funny. First of all, your wife obviously has good taste and chocolate. But the KitKat is one thing. But what about I promised that I'm going to sit in a meeting and I'm going to not belittle anyone, I'm going to go and I'm going to sit in the strategy meeting. And I'm going to really speak my mind. And then I don't write all these times when we when we commit to doing something and then we shy away from it or we don't or we break our commitment. We are out of integrity with ourselves. And every time we do that, this ego myopia the sense that I am not trust worthy, because that's what's happening, right? We have an inner critic, and then we have an inner auditor, the critic barista, so the auditor is measuring us. And when we're out of integrity with ourselves, our inner auditor is continuously, you know, grading us as not trustworthy. And so by being not trustworthy with ourselves, we are not given the full power, right? We are, by definition, limiting our own power and become less empowered. Why? Because this auditor, like a parent, is not going to give responsibility to somebody who doesn't deserve responsibility. I'm not going to give my kids the car keys if they demonstrate that they drive poorly. I want to see responsibility in them and then I give them authority and autonomy and power. Right? Equally so within so this idea of integrity, being honest with ourselves, being self-aware to begin with, to your point, being self, you know, consistent is huge. And until and unless we fix that leak of blaming others for the stuff that we have committed and didn't do, we will remain disempowered.
Greg Voisen
Yeah, you know this, the inner critic is there right? The inner critic hit you on the head. It's hit me on the head. It hits all the listeners on the head. When you promised to do something, and you set an intention, and then you break your intention, you don't do it, right? So it's really something when you break it, and then what happens is, it even gets worse. It's worse because the dialogue goes, I wasn't supposed to eat the cat, or I promised I was going to lose 10 pounds, but I didn't lose the 10 pounds because I ate too many KitKats. But we get it. I think everybody gets it. Awareness, meditation, right? Turning off the inner critic, doing what you say you'll do. Okay? And sticking with it. Those are things we're all here to learn. Okay. And I'm not certain for how many other people but I know for me, it's been a challenge. I had a discussion this morning, Eric, my wife was saying, you know, so many people that want to learn piano, but then, you know, they don't commit. And the word commit is really one of the strongest words around if you're going to commit to a Zen practice. Well, you're going to commit to do it if you're going to commit to meditation you're going to commit, but this whole concept around commitment, and then persistence to do it, want to have a dab the drive to do it is there. And that brings me to our last question here about your book, which is in summary, you mentioned that we were all disconnected from our soulfulness that we are also and we also disconnect from our purpose. So when we're disconnected from our soulfulness, I like the word soulfulness. I thought it was just soul but soulfulness purpose. And then we're disconnected from our purposes, well, how our listeners take actions necessary or how would they take actions necessary to make a connection with the soul and find greater meaningful purpose in their life and business because like this book is for leaders, and it applies both places, you're a leader at home, and you're also a leader at business. And you set examples for your kids, by the way in which you act, everything that we've talked about here, applies just as much at home as it does in the boardroom. Because I really don't believe there's any separation between the two, personally.
Eric Kaufmann
So the first thing I'm going to say is that my premise for writing this book is to cultivate conscious leadership. To your point, yes, you can be a conscious leader, because you're a conscious human. And so let's transcend the leadership. Right? This is a conscious being and, and my proposal is that in this correcting of the ego, myopia, I mean, the ultimate trick of the ego is the sense of separation. I, me mine, right, you know, I'm smart. I'm funny. This is my strengths. This is my musical talent, right? That this is, or the sort of one of the great ones, because I'm the reason for all my success, which proves to be utter and complete bullshit, right? Were successfully as a result of a network and an eat an ecosystem of activities, not the least of which is luck, right? But I, so this kind of IMEI me, the sense of separate, you know, self is the sort of fundamental ego myopic state and cultivating wisdom and love and power, and then aligning them and integrating them is how that ego softens. And I have, we talked about this, it's not about not having an ego, but it's having that the ego be a little more porous, right, so that it's not so fixed, and more specious and more can come in, in terms of concepts and ideas and relationships. And then when you get a little more porous and specious in the ego, you actually have this sense of connectedness and interconnectedness. And the result is this greater sense of soulfulness. Right, this greatest sense of connection. And the invitation here is, you know, don't take my word for it, do this work and do it in a committed way. But I'm going to your point about committed. Sometimes commitment is very difficult. It's hard, it's disciplined. It's driving it's and then we add more self criticism and more punishing ourselves because we didn't meet the commitment that we fell short. I had a huge revelation years ago, that was a real game changer for me because I spent decades in this very intense committed disciplined life. And I struggled, continued even though I lived in a community with the teacher and did all this work. Yeah. It dawned on me one day and this is part of the soulful thing right that rather than come coming from a place of commitment to my whatever meditation wife, job clients, that I'm coming from a place of specifically in the work for myself, a place of respect, self-respect, this is where love becomes such a big deal. Because when I respect something I treated in a particular way, when I really learned self-love and self-respect, which was already soulfulness coming online, but it brings more soulfulness to bear right when I started approaching my meditation practice, less as a discipline or commitment, and more as a way to demonstrate self-love and self-respect. That became a whole lot easier because the things that I love and respect they treat in a way that demonstrates the love and respect. So, you know, being more connected doesn't have to be more of an effort. It can also be an act of love, and wisdom and power, right but certainly love is inherited in there. So my invitation is how to be more soulful is to learn understand, apply and cultivate wisdom, love and power soften that you myopia, and the soulfulness that connection is inevitable. It's inevitable because we are already in a state of interconnection we are one with the universe, and life and people. And the reason we don't experience it is because we think we're alone and separate. And so when we soften that separation, that soulfulness is inherently the soup within which we're floating.
Greg Voisen
Yeah, and I think that when you respect yourself and you respect others, self-respect, self-love, you're also doing things meaning taking actions, with the focus on the fact that whatever you're doing to improve yourself, is going to improve others as well. In other words, you're, you're out there doing what's necessary. That's the doing versus the being conundrum that people drive into. And I think that like you came to your epiphany with you're going to the mountains and living in seclusion for a year, it was about getting married and having a family and contributing. And, you know, that and I and I want to say one thing about I know that as our bodies because we're body mind soul. Frequently the body wants to get to this pace of homeostasis, right? Like, okay, I'm gonna constantly go back and try and find this place. You use the word effort, I use the word commitment. I think those words are powerful, but I think whatever word you're going to substitute for those two words. There's actually nothing wrong with that, because you came to that kind of realization. It's gonna take me some commitment to go out and get married, find a wife, get committed, commit to somebody that's right, and stay married. That's right. So up for all of my listeners, look, leadership. I gotta get this right. Gonna move it break down is the book. Eric Kaufman is the wisdom behind this book. He has many other books, we'll put a link to the last podcast. But this is how conscious leaders generate breakthroughs that enrich business and the world. excellent book, Eric, excellent teachings that I think everybody needs to learn. Go out and get a copy of this. We'll put a link to Amazon. We'll put a link to the website to like I said, sagatica.com. And no mistake to err thank you for your presence this morning, for hanging in there with me, and for providing our listeners with a great podcast to listen to. Please listen to this podcast with Eric Kaufman on leadership breakdown. Thanks, Eric.
Eric Kaufmann
Thank you, Greg. It's been a real pleasure.
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Inside Personal Growth with Greg Voisen · Podcast 1003: Napoleon Hill’s Secret with Don GreenReturning for this podcast is my good friend Don Green. Don has already been on the show several times and now, he’s back to share his latest book entitled Napoleon Hill’s Secret.
Don brings nearly 45 years of banking, finance, and entrepreneurship experience to his role as Executive Director of the Napoleon Hill Foundation which is a nonprofit educational institution dedicated to making the world a better place in which to live. Don specializes in discussing his personal experiences in leadership and providing audiences with proven methods of applying Dr. Hill’s success philosophy to business.
With that, his latest book entitled Napoleon Hill’s Secret is a user’s guide to applying Dr. Hill’s success principles. This book will lead you to discover what you define as success, develop a plan for creating that success, and then follow through on your plan. For Don, if you can master this concept, you truly can achieve the success in your life that you envision.
If you’re interested and want to know more about Don and his amazing works, you may click here to visit his website.
I hope you enjoy my engaging interview with Don Green. Happy listening!
You may also refer to the transcripts below for the full transciption (not edited) of the interview.
Interview Transcipt -Not EditedEmailDownloadNew TabGreg Voisen
Welcome back to Inside Personal Growth. This is Greg Voisen, the host of Inside Personal Growth. And joining me from what is Virginia? What's the city again, Don, it's wise. That's what I thought I just wanted to make sure I had you in the right spot is Don green and Don doesn't probably need a lot of introduction, because he's been on the show many times and you have 39 books to your personal authorship, is that correct, Don? Well, that's what it says out there on the big Google internet is 39. So whatever that number is, it's a lot and he is the executive director of the Napoleon Hill Foundation. And for my listeners, if you've never been to the website, go to naphill.org. That's where you can learn about the courses. You can learn more about the books you can learn about the foundation, and Don is a consummate learner. And I'm gonna let the listeners know a little bit about you, Don. He's an American business entrepreneur, having built successful Savings Bank, a real estate enterprise and a host of other small and successful businesses in southwest Virginia, prior to late his career with Napoleon Hill Foundation, which has been for quite some time. As the CEO of Napoleon Hill, Don has energized the works, and flamed the authors and hosts new books and noted authors demonstrating how the principles of the late Mr. Hill worked to advance the individual and network and other areas around the globe. He's demonstrated unique determination to expand the knowledge of Napoleon Hills work, motivational work, and moreover, Don is a new global social entrepreneur. He's become one of the leading evangelists for entrepreneur self-help through and propel utilization of Napoleon Hill's key keys to success and thinking grow rich. I could go on and on and on about Don, we were gonna learn more about him here myself, but he has been a mentor to me, and somebody that I honestly respect and I with tremendous admiration. And I think every author out there, many of the people that are in the personal growth and self-help arena, know Don Green. And so don, that kind of leads me to this. And in the introduction of the book, you briefly explain the history of Napoleon Hill. Can you tell us a bit about the history and how you became involved as the executive director, just prior to popping on here, you were telling me a little bit about the story in W Clement Stone. And I thought that was interesting, because I didn't know that connection myself. So tell the listeners a little bit about it. Yeah, Gregor,
Don Green
My dad was an underground coal miner. And we didn't have a lot. We didn't have running water and a house since I was in high school. We didn't have a bathroom. And I also was in high school. So it, but I had a good work ethic I got from my family, but I love to read my mom. But she said, if you don't quit reading so much, you're gonna go blind. And I laid the book down a little wall. But you don't just read everything. I read biographies. And I got inspired. We didn't we didn't have books in our home by the Bible. But we had a tremendous library and effect is a supportive, and we have not offices local, really, really good for a rural area, in fact, is our top nine books by and the little lazy, just retired from the library, and of those nine branches, retired. She was in my class when I taught it back in 1990s. So I should have been retired to that guess. But I'm just loved to read. And of course, I read he'll and he was from this area, and of course, those of even more. And not only did I read these books and read his books, I tried to read everything that he ever said read just like your now your that book, you mentioned how to write it down, I got part of it. Because where you send me the book or not, I'm gonna order that book. If someone I respect matches a book, I'm gonna read that book. They can cause I'm still learning. And I might pick something out of it. I'm sure I will, that I can use some time. But anyway, I read those books and read those books. And I've just I was inspired. I was, I think I was making 75 cents or maybe $1. One summer. Mom didn't know what we was doing. Me and my two brothers, but this man hardest to pull steel out of mines in West Virginia. And it's about a three hour drive from here and he gives us his truck. He gives us riches and We took the rails apart into mines, which a rusted mine shut down. And he bought the mines out steel was very valuable. I think it was about $300 a ton. And so we had a ranches WD 40. And when he couldn't that would work. We had a hacksaw, we sold the bolts off, that connected over big rails. But one day in particular, I remember Gosh, this is hard work is about 40 inches, which means you couldn't stand up. It's what my dad did. And it just something said, you know, they guys do this kind of work and make a living. But damn guys you read about in books are using their mind, they don't want to get rich. And I will just read and just guess dreamed or whatever it might go some of them, which was outlandish crazy. But
Greg Voisen
having W Clement Stone play into the picture. You were telling me, you wrote a letter and you got invited to go to Chicago. And I think this is a fascinating story for the listeners.
Don Green
Yeah. And if you come here to show you some time, I'll show you the letter he sent me he sent me and I framed it. But I spoke to historical society in town, Virginia, which is within five miles of where he was born. And what I thought of two things that stands out one, they didn't pay me and they paid me. But they're about 20 people and they didn't know who basically didn't know who Napoleon Hill was. So it's about a 15 minute drive. So when I got back home at night, I took a pan off my kids not staying and I wrote a letter to the to the foundation. They weren't Northbrook, Illinois, a suburb of Chicago, I think. And I told him what I was doing. And now I have to tell him I was a bank president I didn't really know. But I was chairman, the board of the local nonprofit hospital, President Chamber of Commerce, on the border, the banks are doing all kinds of I had plenty of things to do. But they answered my letter and invited me to a board meeting. And this is where I say is and we got a quote from Napoleon says, if your shields don't come in, maybe you didn't send one out? Yeah. Well, I'll say is it an art at all? All they went out and said You want him? It's for each frameable. But they invited me and I went and I was anxious to meet Mr. Stone. The fact is, we don't have a lot of flats. So I probably got at least a couple of hours or so. Or maybe more. But I knew who I was meeting. And I would watch it for him and he traveled usually with two people. I think it was a helper and a nurse. But they are even back then. But he had that little mustache. Yeah. And members, gold cufflinks. And I'm so anxious to meet him that I wait till he sat down before I did it because I want to sit next to him to make sure I heard
Greg Voisen
for my listeners, if they don't know and they can look him up. He was the founder of a combined insurance company. And they used to have a sales force people that went out across the United States selling supplemental policies. It first started because I've read the story about him when there was a car accident and it was an and his mother was involved as well in the whole thing. But you know, this book, Napoleon Hills secret is really a combination. You know, Don Green has been the executive director for how many years now done 43rd Year 23 years. And he's been so ingrained in all of this content, that this particular book that I'm holding up here, and I want all my listeners to see it is the book that if you're going to get any book, get this book, really I mean, this is my plug for this. And the reason is, is because as I was going through it, I was really realizing that Dawn has put in the entire teachings if you've never written if you've never read Think and Grow Rich, obviously that's one of the books you should get. You can get it from the foundation as well. But there's so many books about Napoleon Hill's teachings. Why did you write this book and why do you believe that the secret is so important for people to understand or I shouldn't say that secrets? This says a secret but there there's probably more than one.
Don Green
Well, yeah, I guess I guess there really are. What I thought is important because you know going back when I did the 37th edition of thinking Grow Rich a lot of copies that they can reach out to her and I told her attorney I will go into thick and rich I would take his personal copy, not t 37 First Edition and say print this exactly. I don't want it edited and warranty added to it. I won't if you look up his first edition Oh page 111, you look up my new book on 111 that we're gonna print, it'll be exactly the same. And I even had him redesigned to cover. When the book comes out initially, it had up at the top for men and women who resent poverty. So we get so many questions of why he wrote the book. And people and people says, It's not about money. Well, it is about money because it's during the Depression. He said, he wrote the book, for the May is a men and women who are living in poverty and in fear of poverty. Which is, which is which is tough situation to be in, but a lot of people will never, never escape it. So that's what he was trying to do was to get them to do it. So we went back and printed a saying book, the cover looks as much like as good. But we added that statement that was on original copies for men and women who resent zip poverty. But in his book that Greg in his book Thinking Grow Rich, the word action effect is as my work and title use an action to achieve success. And then we played around with the human X, who owned Kate Newsmax cable, and Uzbeks magazine, they the printer, and they said it was it they um, that was so excited about it. They thought what I was talking about was Napoleon Hill sacred, which is action. You know, usually people will say that the best ideas in world but ideas in himself were absolutely worthless. If you wouldn't take the action, do it, you know, you can think Oh, you want to, but they can do it either. It says thinker, rich. But there's also there's also it's stamps to riches. You know what he says? What do you want? Next one is What do you plan to give to entitle, you'd watch a wall, that seems people want to skip that they know they won't a lot of money, they want this or they won't that. But you know, no matter what it is you want to accomplish it. For example, if you're a little boy comes along, and he's 10 or 1214 years or longer, and he wants to be a doctor, he's got to start making plans for it. He can't just keep thinking about a doctor. He's got to finish school, he’s got to make decent grades. He's got to take biology in the sciences, whatever you want. That's the plan. Again, you see execution or the action. And, and so many people and what I know what holds them back is fear. Basically, it's fear of criticism, said, Greg, what do you think you mean, you have your mind? Are you crazy, you don't know about putting a magazine together, just forget it. Your people are gonna make fun of you, you're gonna fail, and then you're gonna look like an idiot. And so you listen to those people and you you're kind of looking behind your seat who's watching you, you know,
Greg Voisen
it's a lot on about a PMA positive mental attitude. And it's also a lot in your chapter called dreaming big and small. You speak about the power of imagination. And you know, they're probably and I think I've told you this before, when I was seven years old, I got to meet Walt Disney. And to me that was like, there was a person who, honestly, you know, I didn't get to spend much time with him is very short. I got to shake his hand and say hi. But I was so taken by what he had created the world he had created through this imagination. You said Imagination is a skill. A lot of people don't think that. It's like driving a car and learning multiplication. You said in the book, what is the secret to developing both our synthetic and creative imaginations? If you as you said it in the book?
Don Green
Well, we did a did an interview last night on imagination. And of course, most, all of the most all of the things come about as synthetic imagination No, we're simply taking something and improving on it, making it better, making it more accessible making it cheaper or making it last longer or deputation to it and of course the creative is taking something other of all innocence envisions the photographs the only one that could be actually labeled as creative because nothing like it ever exists. And he had this imagination of and it can be done and he drew the plans out on enveloped and told to God you do this you do this you do this it worked the first time I tried it and it was but he even like synthetic because he already knew that electricity put to a wire heat would go trouble I was gonna just go and didn't last. So here's only any and he understood that if you put something in a vacuum we removed it, it was already a vacuum to remove them oxygen practically 100% that it would slow down to the burning rate
Greg Voisen
that fell on that what the filament wouldn't burn out.
Don Green
He tried string she tried bamboo he tried to ever kind of metal you can think of before he come up with a filament that would burn for hours and costs basically lit up the world with that one thing with that with that one thing, it basically lit up the world. And well, I
Greg Voisen
think Nikola Tesla as well, you know, I mean, you look at Edison, you look at Tesla, you look at all these, these great inventors that we can point out. And in the end, you know, Tesla died penniless, and in a hotel somewhere. And I think it was mainly because of the competition. Now you've got a car called a Tesla. Who would have ever thought and now you know, the actually we this thing that we carry around that everybody carries around, it probably wouldn't be if it hadn't been for Tesla. And I think some of those imaginations and you say fire up imagination and envision this everywhere that you go you meet people who respond to you with enthusiasm. And I think this is a key, you said just a second ago, go do this, go do that. All these people that come into your life. They're important. And it's important to treat them right? And then what can our listeners do to create what Hill termed a pleasing personality? Speak with us about how we've inhibited ourselves so that we can be like, have this great pleasing personality so that people around us would be magnetized to us?
Don Green
Yeah. So Greg, it is extremely important that we develop that. And I think it's starts off with of course, with a positive mental attitude. And, and, and with a desire to help others and follow up at the same time. You can't have imagination. If you have negative feelings, no words, you need to be at peace with yourself. You can't sit here and despise your competitors. espouse you're, and then but then says, Yeah, I want to be great. I think you've got to have you got to have an open mind. Kind of like a kind of like a small child. And of course at what then happens if we had the imagination of a child is it will be unbelievable. Yeah, it would be financed parents, they tend to over protect. The kid comes up to you says toil very rules. I've been reading this book about so and so went to Harvard. I like to go to Harvard. Are you gonna tell the kid are you crazy? You know how much it goes to Harvard? We don't have that kind of money in the dream basically dials in the kid and said, we should say to the kid was you really want to go to heart? Yeah, I want to go to the heart rest of our soul. And so when I want to go to Harvard, and he said that now a job is how can we get you to Harvard, and start? Well, and
Greg Voisen
I think you mentioned something earlier, Don, I think frequently that is because of the fear that the parents might hold. In other words, the fear that they might not be able to afford it, whatever fears they're talking about. And I was listening to a story last night that was so compelling. NASA had a contest for fourth graders, in this fourth grader in our town, just adjacent to me, have this whole thing drawn out. And there was a guy from NASA sitting on the floor with him. And whoever wins the competition gets to go to NASA, they get to actually go and take a tour. And this young man is in contention. But you should have heard him done. You should have heard him talking about how you would make the spacecraft and it would drill a hole in this ice thing. And they literally could get out and he's going to explore a new planet. And I was sitting there and just in awe of a fourth grader, right? Who had all these drawings, they were all laid out on the floor. Talk about imagination, right?
Don Green
Greg as I've used an example, in fact is it kind of goes back to banking buddy involvement, you can take an elementary, and I helped a young lady to school and a related couple of divorces and I have to get through college, she could kindergarten she loves small kids. Now you can be a real creative as a teacher, you can get a bunch of Play Doh, and you can you can make apples and fruits and bananas and low dogs and cat animals and so forth name kids, you can hold her attention. But if you really want to get them involved, you go round each one of them today is to give them a hand and flow do let them work on it and let your imagination form and that's how they do it they got to happen they got to have an involvement. They will get bored listen to for a while, but if you involve them in that thing, and ask them if they can come up with they will. They will surprise you. And they will some of the lesson like learning but in banking. We had to do a budget and banking and So Greg would be my loan officer. And I'd say, I'd tell Greg, Greg, I expect you to increase our standing by $5 million. By the end of this this quarter. Greg's probably having 10 said, yeah, he's guys getting a big salary. Let Go ahead, go ahead and do it. But if I asked Greg, Greg, you're in charge of the loan house standing alone now. And we're doing well, how much do you think we could increase the loan outstanding? Nine times out of 10, Greg will give me a better number than happy now Greg is a part of it. He's, I'm not dictating to him, Greg is part of it. And he wants to be a part of the team and he wants to get results. I don't know why that's hard to teach or whatever. But you're not much of a leader. If you go around, say you're gonna do this or do this, you're gonna do this. You're what it is. You can't stand over and watch them. They're gonna You can be walking. But yeah, he's making a big shout out and go ahead, you thinking do it. Go ahead. But
Greg Voisen
I think I think Don Robert Greenleaf, who would talk the Greenleaf methods of leadership goes way back, you, I'm certainly you know, him. But you know, most leaders, and it still happens today, I see it, they believe everybody works for them. The reality is you inverse the model. And you're working for them, just what you're saying, you're basically saying, hey, what can I do to help and serve you? Meaning Greg, in this example, that you were using right there. And, you know, you speak about in the book, who's in charge of your life, and this is a great example, what we were just talking about, you state that until we can make sure we're choosing what must be done and when to do it, that we are going to have a hard time reaching our goals. Now, a much of what he'll talked about was aims and goals and how to reach them, and so on, speak with the listeners about what he'll call the power of personal initiative. Because this is a very important element. I mean, when you say the secret or secret. The if, if you are 100%, responsible for where you are today, nobody else, just like you, you wrote a letter to W Clement Stone, and you took the action. Write it, you had the initiative, you said, this is my personal initiative, I'm gonna write this letter. And nothing happens unless you take that initiative. So talk about that.
Don Green
It's very important. And I could I'll use will I'll use one out loud, but it simply means seeing something that needs to be done and to go and do it. That would be untold that I've received the Sam Walton award one year. And that's the only award I ever question. Well, he did it because they're an Oregon, so we're in a little town. And so I actually got to touch with him. I got to Sam Walton, business ward. And it was for community service. I got to Sam Walton book, I got a Sam Walton Walmart cap. And, of course, being a Walmart stockholder, but they hadn't moved me get new ward. So I asked him and say it was do the work that I did the nominations I got coming in. But Sam told us stories, he liked to visit all of his stores, and he visit one of his stores and he's with the manager, and there was some junk or something other trash around where you go out to checkout and he told the manager, he said, that needs to be cleaned up. And he said, all we gotta got does that he'll come by for a while and clean it up. Say I'm just turned around and walked towards the back and asked him for a broom and employ for a broom and a little for and Sam goes and does it itself. Now do you think he talked that guy listening personal initiative, if that guy's IQ was as high as 40, he should have known that way when something needs to be done, I don't need to wait till somebody comes to mind, it needs to go ahead and be done be done. It separates of people that are average. And those people that rank way above average is seeing something you know that that needs to be done and go ahead and go in and do it and without being told. And of course, the old says was they stupid kind of people that will never make it. One of them won't do what you're told me. And the other group won't mail for much as can only do what they are told. And so we have to separate ourselves from that. And it's not it's not
Greg Voisen
I think, I think Don it's also seeing what needs to be done. In other words, being aware that that pile of dirt or whatever it was, was there and making sure that it was cleaned up every day ahead of time, whatever it is, but again, I have seen many times in various establishments, and I'm not gonna mention any names. But you know, it's like the workforce misses the most apparent things. And then sometimes I do bring it to their attention, right? I say, hey, you need to, there's something wrong over here. Um, you guys should get it fixed, or you should do something about it. But I don't know, when you instill this behavior, let's call it a behavior, let's call it something that I stand for a value, which would be cleanliness, right, in this case with the, with Walmart to actually have that, and, and that's the personal initiative we're talking about with it that people need to get right.
Don Green
Absolutely. It will, it will get you promoted. Think of the theory of compensation. Ralph Waldo Emerson, who was one of the people that he'll read. And he said, that if you do, if you do that, if you're a decent person, hey, Steve, you're doing more than what you was actually required of you, that your employer will recognize you. And if not, some other employer will recognize I've only applied for one job and my love one job. And it was in finance, it was in the finance industry. $1.50 an hour, but they call me hotshot, I worked my butt off. And they furnished us with books and courses in economics and marketing for which we didn't have to pay for which I thought was absolutely wonderful. And I just knew good as anything. And I have a letter somewhere another one time from with a finance company, that I was our youngest manager district. And as they call me hotshot, because it because it basically I wasn't smartest person on the planet. But I had initiative and could see things that need to be done. And they call it creativity, or whatever. But just seeing with your vision of what can be done, what's possible, and make an application of it and it will play rewatch it may take a while, may not.
Greg Voisen
But well. I mean, one thing I know about you from the time that I've known you is that there isn't anybody that could read as many books as you do and do all the work that you've done without being curious. And I think there's something to be said for having a curious mind and turning that curiosity into a purpose, and then adding goals to that purpose, to achieve something because it's okay to be curious, it's okay to have many different interests. But then if you if your purpose is around something, and you define it, and you come up with these goals, and then you come up with the interim goals, meaning the proximal goals, that's important. And I want to ask you this question about the analogy of physical fitness. And you talked about in the book, all the magazines that promise that will improve our physical fitness, right? Well, there isn't, there isn't one magazine that's going to improve my physical fitness is going to be me that's going to take action. To do that, I know that you then ask the reader to question their mental fitness. And I think that's where I'm going with this question of like, who's in charge, speak with the listeners about mental fitness and the principle of concentration. Because, you know, focus, focus is free. And you know, that when you concentrate, and you get focused, and you get laser focused, that's when you accomplish something. But oftentimes, you have to explore the curiosity of what's out there to find the thing you love. Right? In other words, what is this one thing I love? We often know, and I don't know about your situation, but, you know, I have two children that are now in their 40s. And they've tried many of them many different things. And then when they found that one thing, boy did I see huge acceleration, right? They got extremely focused and did really well at it. And I don't think there's anything wrong with that. What do you think?
Don Green
No, I don't either. I mean, we learn by doing well, sometimes I know I have I learned more sometimes when things didn't work. Then when they when they did, we learn lessons? And the I think the trouble Greg is when people so called fail at some no they quit, but you have to learn to life IT failures as lessons, it doesn't mean that you've been defeated, it means this didn't work. We've got to try no different approach. Now if you and I was gonna leave Virginia and go to Florida, we would know that we go we're gonna be traveling south. But if we've gone down Interstate 26, and we get down going through Tennessee or North Carolina, during snowstorm, sometimes that roads blocked, and I can remember when it used to be a long time it would be for days it where they could clear it so my baby slides and, and whatever, but we were not going to clear it. We simply turn around and go and take an alternate route. And I think so many times people have said, you’ve not you've not failed until you quit. And you have to look at it. I wish I could take some lessons you don't have time to listen to. Do I mean I remember when one will sell an art? I got really good up, oh, and sell Norte and I went to this big auction. And I got about 10 or 12 Russian paintings which it was a guy that did a movie set for war and peace. And I've done really well with money later money. I just don't think it was the theater Merlin's the only Kenyans they serve you wine cheese, people dress fancy and so forth. No, my name is Anna booth and got them pictures now. And then things start sell some of them so for less than what I paid for. And I said, Don, are you stupid or what all I had done was put a minimum price. And if it didn't sell, I'd say my pay it back. But it was a process. But I didn't quit. The next time I shipped some off, I had to determine what I wanted for the minimum price or didn't sale. But, you know, I didn't quit it never come up before. Things always bought more than what I imagined. And I said to him, he sold himself through Sotheby's. And I just loved the process because I was giving the money away. It wasn't a money thing. It just a process of doing it but didn't have one I did that one is and I said, Why don't you look stupid, but I didn't let it bother me. I thought it's kind of funny. I didn't lose my shirt or nothing. But I didn't get the money that I thought I would just pay to get an old, some old but but anyway, it was lesson learned.
Greg Voisen
But it's experience. You know, I think a lot of these things you have to do to get as what's termed many times, there's emotional intelligence, it's actually experiential intelligence. And you know, you're somebody at like, me, I'm going to be 69 and a few months. You you learn from experience and wisdom comes when you get older, and you've had these experiences. And you know, you have this chapter on creating harmony. And I think this is a great segue to this, and you speak about the importance of cooperation. You know, I think early in our lives, a lot of times ego takes over. But as we age, we realize how important cooperation is, and a cooperating attitude. You mentioned that it's not something that can be turned off and on, it's something that we must maintain, has to be maintained. And I agree with you on that. 100%. How would you invite the listeners to inspire personality and a mindset of cooperation? Because, you know, you you said it earlier, 10 minutes ago, I can't look bad at the competition. You can't, you know, look at these people and say, Oh, well, they're doing better. And I'm going to do something to you know, get back at them or whatever it might be. That's not the way the world works. It never was and never well, right.
Don Green
No, absolutely. I have a I have a young gentleman who set this thing up this program for for us and he's 26 years old. He's been here 12 years, I hardier many eighth grade. I started at $10 an hour, 20 hours a week, eighth grade. Now, mind you, because I knew his mother taught computer science and his sister had worked with me for six years three in high school during college was a pharmacist. And both of them were kids of an underground coal miner. And he would tell him on pot can I work for Don CeCe work for Don Whatcom I work for? I said, I said, I can't work until these 14 week he turns 14, get a work permit? And and so they told me so would you give Zane some lessons on finance? What do you have time and said he don't really have any don't really have anybody. And so I told him, I remember the first day, I said Zane cooperation is one of the things we work with. We got all these foreign publishers, they keep development. And they want to last in the books most time for as little amount of advance and we get advance on everybody. Because we don't know where they're going for him or not. We can't run over and check all the books and so forth. So we demand a advance on every book that we sell. And I said they of course I want to pay as little as they can. We want as much as we can. But what I want you to know is we have to cooperate and consider where they're coming from, what country what our economy is, and so forth. And now said, just remember 50% of something is better than all of nothing.
Greg Voisen
That's that's, there's a statement you made because part of the pie is better than the whole pie if that's what you're gonna give as what we used to say. And if you have enough of those, let's just call them deals going like you do with various publishers and things. That all adds up in the end. And that's what you have to look at is you know, we have to cooperate to get anything done in this world. I wish that some of our governments today we're doing a better job at co While operating, that would be a really nice thing to see. But you know, to switch the gear a little bit, you have this part in the book that Napoleon Hill said, time and money are precious resources, but few people striving for success, ever believe they possess either one and access time or money. And I know one thing that's extremely precious to guys like you and I, is we start to as you age, look at time. We know our finitude at some point is coming, we're not going to be on this in this physical earth forever. And we try and do as much as we can to optimize that amount of time that we're spending and do it in the right way. I know I have a nonprofit that gives money to Ukraine and gives money to it was out this weekend handing out gift cards to the homeless. You know, that nonprofit of mine is the whole reason I do this show. I literally and my listeners know that. I walk around and I find homeless people and I ask them their story and interview him and I put them on a video. And I think that time is very time well spent. And you speak with the listeners if you would about managing resources. And you say there's three styles of approach to managing resources you call it in the book, you said, engineers, improvisers, and theorists. And I thought that that's a really great way to categorize people that are trying to manage resources. And when I say resources, we're talking about time and money, because those are probably the most important resources you have. So talk with our listeners about that if you have done well,
Don Green
all of them are important. And we can, we can call it creating a legacy in different manners. I don't I don't have Bill Gates's money, or Elon Musk is money. But I do have some things that I can offer the lessons that I've learned a lot. Today I'm having lunch with one of the students and a professor, one of the students wanted to meet me, she had took an art course. And she wanted to be able to go make presentations to the, to the local high school classes and so forth, about the importance of the material that she had learned. And she wanted to meet with me and have conversations. So there's a lot of ways we could contribute. And you mentioned you craning and when you get through, you could send me up send me a link or something or takes away it is I love what Ukraine effect is. We have lost the book in Ukraine just recently.
Greg Voisen
Do you? Do you have books in you in Ukraine?
Don Green
Oh, yeah. I've just lost them now. Witness? We've done sir. Oh,
Greg Voisen
God. Thank God, I praise you. Thank you for doing that. How many do you have over there now?
Don Green
I could I'd have to look at the LF look and see how many how many. We get one for new cars. We've got about 500 publishers. But we Lawson's in Belarus. Estonia am like Macedonia, you aren't so much like Macedonia, country, but it's the old Greg it's the oldest country in the world. And I'm not thought not not gonna teach the Bible. But in Corinthians, Paul, after crosses crucified, he had a call to go to Macedonia, and and to evangelize, and probably no doubt spread Christianity to I don't think we'd have Christianity exists today without Paul. But people come and visit me. Now, I'm not going to make a lot of money from Macedonia. But I think I'm doing a service. And when that when that book comes in, and that's what you see on the shelves, there are all foreign books, we got a sampling of different countries, because we asked for to, I still get a thrill out of getting a book from Macedonia or Ukraine or somewhere. And the only thing I can tell I open it up. And it's got our copyright name, and I'm sure it should have. And our attorney asked for our copyright to be shown in front of the book. And he Oh, we got chicken if it got copyrighted. And you don't pull me away I just get boxes get for i
Greg Voisen
It's interesting. You say that because I'm working on an initiative and I'll talk to you about it later. But real quickly, we know that all of Ukraine is going to have to be rebuilt afterwards. And all these small business people who are really want to start working to do that. And I'm working with a man in Poland. Now. That's how my money gets filtered. I'm buying bicycles for the kids that literally are displaced from Ukraine. And they ended up in apartments in Poland, and but they come with nothing. And so I've made a great contact in Poland. I've known this man from very long, and he's buying bicycles and things for the kids. And the important thing is is that you know, They were trying to do something to impact someone else's life. And I want to go back to this because people out there have time and they have money. And you can, you know, I just gave money to the Mercy Ships, because I think they're doing good work. There's a lot of charities we can give money to, but we also can give time. And I think the most important thing, one of the precious resources was, you know, because you've been a executive director of your own found of the Napoleon Hill Foundation. But you've also done other charitable work is, you know, they call it time, talent and treasure, right. We always say that, and I think it is time is one of the most precious resources you have, but it's also one of the most precious resources you can give. Right?
Don Green
Absolutely, absolutely. I mean, for example, my mother lived to be in her nannies grew up during the Depression. And, and they we ate well, but she lived alone for about 15 years. My dad was an underground coal miner and crippled up, she lived alone. But she didn't just hop up. She finished her nursing homes, and that she was always helping someone. They had a sewing club, that they made quilts and things they raised money to send for foreign missions. And she was a lot of he had a schedule of visiting a nursing home and she was still driving, which is 90 or 90 years old. Wow. But she had the she had to she had to Tom and for example, I know. She had a neighbor that worked in the mines and he got injured, he got on opiates. Then he sold them and they got him. He served I believe 80 months. The neighbors mom thought was shun him cause the gun he's passed away. He's gone. But But Charlotte, what did she do? she bakes a cake and texted him she know what kind of cake she is. She took her cheek took a cake. And and of course mama did 6am And he said Miss greets and now we can I could do make it without you. And she said in she told him she told him never if you won't see me again said you're gonna have to get on your knees and ask forgiveness. And she and she talked to him just like she would want her children. And she did she did those things in and one time she was probably 85 My younger brother was in business a Winchester and he came in we went out in summertime we sat on the porch and she said well I got till you boys together said I've been thinking about getting a new car and my younger brother said wow Bob said Blomstedt at one you got what he said last year and I said Mom You got domains I said what do you want get a new car will want I gots kind of little and I thought if I got a station wagon I can take more people to church.
Greg Voisen
Now you go that's a wonderful
Don Green
vehicle and
Greg Voisen
and we should get her a van you need to get her a man right? She could
Don Green
she could take a few more before she can get her get her get her record forget.
Greg Voisen
We do live in a world where there is this need for compassion right now and understanding and you know, I was listening to the story about the devastation that tornado tornadoes and Mississippi here all these people's houses are ripped up and yet there's a lady walking through the piles and it says on her shirt because they this was on national news last night. Something barbecue BBQ. And so literally she fed 400 people the first night 400 people the next morning, 600 people the following afternoon and she was out. Actually talking to the people in the piles of the rubble saying barbecue, we're gonna we're gonna have a big barbecue over here, we're gonna feed you right. So here this person is from, I think she was part of a church or an organization they didn't actually say but the shirt was a big red shirt and said something about barbecue and I was like, this is just fantastic to see people come together in time of need and help other people out just like you see going on and Ukraine and so on. And on you know, your book here, this book, everybody go out and get this and you know what, get more than one copy because you can give this away. This is a book that you really should give away as a as a gift to somebody to read. And I'm sure if you go to the Polian Hill website and I can't sit make for certain, but Don autograph this copy, and I'm certain that my listeners he wouldn't be opposed to autographing a copy for him and getting it out to you if you bought it through the found nation the book is filled with sage advice obviously wisdom for anyone wanting to live a fulfilled life. That's what this is about but there but I always ask my authors at the end with three bits of advice we do believe listeners with that they could apply to their life today that would change something for them or an improve something for them one on to their personal success and to on a mental level of them feeling more fulfilled and more purposeful in their life about what's going on. Because that's the bottom line all this right.
Don Green
Yeah Greg Yandina book with Jim so Wallach off the hook. It was leaving a legacy and I think they got that wrong and you're you're a perfect example that we always said well he left a legacy he left a legacy What's the matter you can't live one I want to see some good if it's happening while I'm here. Send the kids to school and a different things are gonna do I don't want to put down leave the money and say well let's go so the history schools that walking while I'm still here, we're gonna we always equated to you talked about heaven. But to the degree that you do is you know, those stories a little boy stolen starfishes back and and water on the bed? Did Sunday's millions of them said you can't save them all. He said it matters when one's out throw back. So no, we can't we can't help all those people in Chrome and Ukraine. But the little kid gets a bicycle. You made a difference in his life. So yeah, one time one time one time one and we all look at that thing is not thinking, you know, the poem says we should plant trees, under whose shade we'll never enjoy, where to do things today that for those that follow us, and I had a I had a wise mentor lived to be 96. He was chasseur to college. And he was on my bike board. And we had offices up in Harrisonburg, Pennsylvania places and one of the trustees had a plane and he plowed the guys. Dock I call him. He didn't he didn't like to fly. So that time was with me was just so valuable. Of course, my wife always said a shared recording. Well, it's kind of hard to record some of your driving. But remember, in one of the things he said, Don, he said, I like to add it what you're giving money to for the kids. He said a lot of people want to remain put on a building. But he said you know how the college are now he's Chancellor, he's got to charge. He said, they'll put your name on a building. And if you're dead, somebody else comes along, they'll take your name off, and for some money, they'll put somebody else's name on it. But he said that what you give to those kids, it goes into their minds, and they can pass it along to ones that follow them. It makes all the difference in the world. So I've don't crave to have my name splashed around over to I have enough regulations while I've been here, but I don't crave something like that. But to know that I feel hundreds and hundreds of kids go to school. And then a guy did a book on me he interviewed 101 people. And Zane my sister said to her what were students. And it was not a book to be sold. It's just a book he composed. And it was a it was a wonderful book of advice from 101 different people. I never told him who to interviewed you almost say done for you as
Greg Voisen
well, you know what I do? I think I'll put this up at the blog, you'll download, I got a magazine article that came out about Don. And this isn't just about the accolades for Don's folks. But this is about the man that we're speaking with here on the Zoom call and all for all of you listening on audio, the recognition that the university and the Napoleon Hill Foundation a gave to the University of Virginia, and then mount of proceeds that you've given for scholarships is just amazing. And I just want to commend you, Don, for the work that you've done at Napoleon Hill. And also the gifts you've given to the university in the way so that you can educate more kids. And I love what you said, because you know, you can you can lead a man to water but you can't make him drink, right. And but you want to teach somebody how to fish. And so the point is, is that you're a great teacher, and this book is got all the lessons in it that people really need to know they don't need to go much further and you can get it both from the Knaphill website. You can also get it from Amazon obviously. Whatever you do, get it get yourself more than one copy here but it's a buy a copy for you and buy one for your best friend and give it to your best friend. Don it's been an honor and a pleasure having you on inside personal growth again, it always is. And this time we're doing it with the video. So this will be up on YouTube for all my listeners, they know where the channel is. And any parting words?
Don Green
Mr. Hill? Yeah, we will, we will put it out. But you know, I absolutely love what I'm doing. And we don't discuss my age, but I've had my 82nd birthday. So I absolutely love what I'm doing. I was murdered 54 years of my wife's advice to my only child, my daughter said, Don't let your daddy quit work, he wouldn't live 15 minutes. And I said, I'll come make it a week, probably.
Greg Voisen
You're like me? I mean, people have asked me when I'm gonna retire. And I'm like, I'm not because I don't have intentions of that. As long as I can be of service and continue to do what I do. That's what I do. And I think that's important. And I, you know, money isn't everything. But it is important for you while you're growing yourself and raising your family to make certain and Donald say this, he was a banker. And I look at, you know, Silicon Valley Bank and these banks that have faltered, there's nothing wrong with our banking system. There's nothing wrong with our monetary system. The only thing that's wrong is that people don't save enough. Okay, in other words, put enough away so that they can have a comfortable retirement, and this is me speaking, but at the same time, do good with that money. Do do something positive with that money. Open up your own foundation, like I haven't had it since the 90s. But actually do something where you can make an impact in the world and Don, Don Green is a perfect example that somebody who's doing good every day. He's got the kindest heart. And, again, go get this book one of 39 Okay, so, Don Greene, thank you so much for being on inside personal growth.
Don Green
Thank you, Greg. Good. Sometime another we'll discuss it. I wrote a book, not just promoted called millionaire mindset. There was 100,000 book, it's only for uses of money, only for uses of money. And people just don't get it. They just don't get it. Why is that and this reporting, so people will plan their vacation, he'll say, I'm targeted Beach, let's call them out. I thought you liked the beach. They'll plan from 111 vacations and Nixon before decide where they're gonna go and where they're gonna rent a condo or where they're gonna stay at Hilton or whatever. And, and Elon even proposed all this stuff is, but why don't they prepare for their love? Right? Real good. 120 years ago, I think he said, it's not that people were planning to fail. They simply failed to plan,
Greg Voisen
right. And now that we're all living longer, you actually can run out of money. So you might want to start putting way more earlier than ever before. But this isn't a show on finance, but it kind of is on finance because Napoleon Hills spoke a lot about all of these things that we're discussing. And the foundation if you go to the foundation, Knaphill dot o RG, you're going to find courses, you're going to find content, you're gonna find books, you're going to find all these things that would definitely make an impact on your life for the positive and make you make your life more rewarding and fulfilling. Thank you Don green for being on inside personal growth
Don Green
Was my pleasure. I just love doing it and maybe again for too long.
Greg Voisen
We will.
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Inside Personal Growth with Greg Voisen · Podcast 1002: Write Books That Change the World with Kathy SparrowMy guest for this episode is my good friend Kathy Sparrow. She wants to share and invite everyone to join her online course called Write Books That Change the World beginning this April.
Kathy is an award-winning author and a leadership and empowerment expert and with over three decades of experience in the publishing world, she definitely knows the ins and outs of writing, launching, and marketing your books. Kathy also mentors and collaborates with aspiring authors and thought leaders to get their books written.
Kathy believes that when an idea comes to us, the Universe is calling us to bring that message into the world. For her, it’s our responsibility to create the impact and influence in transforming the lives of the people who need to hear our message.
That is what her new program is for. “Write Books That Change the World” is Kathy’s premier program beginning this April that aims to position you as an expert and raise the visibility of your message and your business.
If you’re interested about Kathy, you may click here to visit her website. Also, you may learn more about her online program and more by clicking here.
I hope you enjoy my engaging interview with Kathy Sparrow. Happy listening!
You may also refer to the transcripts below for the full transciption (not edited) of the interview.
Interview Transcipt -Not EditedEmailDownloadNew TabGreg Voisen
Welcome back to Inside Personal Growth. This is Greg Voisen, the host of Inside Personal Growth. And on the other side of the camera or for those of you who are listening via audio only, I'm on with Kathy Sparrow, and Kathy and I have been friends for quite some time. And she is about ready to launch a course that I think everybody needs to learn about who's thinking about, or has ever thought about writing a book. And we're going to be talking about that Kathy is joining us from Los Angeles. Good day to you, Kathy.
Kathy Sparrow
Good morning or good day. Yes. Yeah. Listening later in the day.
Greg Voisen
Yeah. Well, Kathy and I have just finished working on a book and for those of you listening on YouTube, or you can see it. It's called the precipice of life, leadership and personal growth insights from a mountaineers edge by Beau Parfit and a big contribution from Kathy and myself. So, Kathy has been doing this with me for some time. Many of my listening audience know that I've been involved in helping people get books done. And if it hadn't been for the help of Kathy probably wouldn't happen. So Kathy, I'm gonna let the listeners know more about you. She calls herself a literary midwife. She's an award winning author ghostwriter, publisher consultant, who's been mentoring aspiring writers of nonfiction fiction and poetry for over two decades. Many have been pen bestselling books because of her book coaching services, known as behind the scenes secret weapon. To thought leaders Cathy specializes in areas of self-development, leadership, and people who are writing memoirs. Kathy has coauthored and Project Lead books such as ignite your leadership, proven tools of leaders to energize teams, fuel momentum and accelerate results. Her novel The whispered teachings of the grandmother trout is touted as the feminine version of a river runs through it. She's also the author of children's books such as Stankey, and CC, break the rules 2022 And Stankey, and CC out of control 2023. She is completing. It's all in the cast a fly fishers guide to president's power and performance 2023. And she has ghostwritten books and blogs on topics of banking, personal growth, development, memoir and leadership, including the book that I just held up for you who are watching on YouTube, the precipice of life leadership and personal growth insights from the Mountaineers yet edge. Now to find out more about Kathy, you can just go to kathysparrow.com, that's k-a-t-h-y-s-p-a-r-r-o-w.com, or www.awritablelife.com, we'll put links in there as well. We're also going to put a link for all the listeners to the place where you can sign up for this course if after our interview here, we've done anything to inspire you to want to actually sign up for the course. There'll be a special link in the blog. There will also be a link for those of you watching on YouTube, right underneath the YouTube channel so that you can sign up from there. So we are going to kick this off with Kathy this morning. And Kathy noise, talk to authors. They've written books. We you and I aren't particularly talking about any one book at this point. Because you have been involved in the development of so many books. Where did you come up with this literary midwife come from? Because I think that's interesting. You're giving birth obviously. So you're giving birth to a book. So tell us more about that.
Kathy Sparrow
I actually somebody said, Oh, your literary midwife after I told them what I was doing, it was actually in a retreat center in Costa Rica. And we were just sitting around chatting and one of the people there, asked me what I did and I said, well, I help people you know, take their the ideas of their books and bring them into the world. They said, Oh, you're a literary midwife. So it stuck it because it very much is birth process. We, you know, there's a conception and then there's the development and then font, you know, we the birth is when we get to hold the book in her hands and show it off. So it's and there are times when it's really exciting and There are times when there's a bit of a transition, or anybody's given birth, it gets a little a little dicey. So
Greg Voisen
well, I have a question for you, because I was just re listening to a podcast that I did not that long ago with a really interesting man, Michael Sandler. And Michael, helps people as well, kind of like you. And he calls it Aw, e automatic writing experience. And, you know, he says, the book comes through you. And I believe that as well, I believe that frequently. It's not something, you know, people think about it, okay, write every morning for two hours. Well, what you're really trying to do is get yourself set up in the proper mindset and frame and with meditation to be able to allow these words to come through, you know, I know for some of my listeners that are listening, they're like, well, that's crazy. But you don't really force a book, do you? You kind of have to, you have to get in this spiritual state. And I love what Michael talked about, because really, that's what you help your you, when you guide people through birthing their book, just like birthing a baby, you really have to get in a new mindset, don't you?
Kathy Sparrow
Yeah, I really believe that, when we get that idea, it's really a tap on the shoulder from the universe that says, hey, I've got a mission for you. And, you know, we would probably move the idea around for a while. But really, it's about surrender. And also, I believe, we can tap into the consciousness of the project. So before I sit down to write or even work with my clients, I actually tap me take a moment to tap into the consciousness of that project and ask what wants to be brought through me as I guide my clients through the process. And sometimes we I consciously do that, you know, at the beginning of a session with a client, we, we sit, and we meditate briefly, and then it's amazing to watch the magic, you know, as they sometimes I do
Greg Voisen
kind of techniques do you have to help people I know, we're gonna get into your program here. But this is the program, right? It, you know, when I think about meditation, or listening to music, when I was speaking with Michael, and you and I have talked about this, I know when I wrote my first book, I literally would put headphones on and put on very inviting music, but at the same time I was in this meditative state. It wasn't me writing. And I know, for a lot of listeners out there they go, Oh, cool. I've written a book. And I realized that right, man, I think, for the people that want to write a book, they have to realize that much of this is about letting go, isn't it? It is,
Kathy Sparrow
it is, I think, in a lot of ways, you know, our heads get in the way or mindset gets in the way, like a woman to write this book. And, you know, what do I know, there's books written on this subject? You know, before, how can I add anything new, but if we can just trust it, that idea has come to us and just surrender and just listen to what wants to come through? Right. It's about listening, and trusting that we're going to be given, you know, most of the main ideas, I think, to, you know, there is some technical practical skill that's brought in, but the biggest, or the most important action is that act of surrender and trust.
Greg Voisen
Yeah, and, you know, regardless of the amount of research one of your clients may want to do, it's interesting how when the research part, whether it's through Google, or you're gonna go read another book, or you're gonna pull something from here, you're gonna pull it from there. It's interesting that if you're in that space, you're given hits on all the research as well. Right? Yeah. And I think that's what I noticed some of the people listening is my Tom funny. But you don't force the research either. Right? It's kind of like, oh, you get a hit. And it's like, I should go over here. And I should go over there. And I should go here and I go here, right?
Kathy Sparrow
Yeah, that too, or something comes across your email inbox. It's like, wow, look at that. Right. It does happen it Yeah. I, I trust that. Sometimes we're given life experiences to go through as well, that end up in the book in some way, shape or form. But yeah,
Greg Voisen
it's really, fundamentally a spiritual process. And I know, okay, let's not have that be off putting to people. But the reality is writing a book is a spiritual process. And when you're done, you feel like you've birthed a part of you, right? You Do you want to go run around and tell the world look at, you know, I finally got this thing done, right? So tell us more about write books that change the world because, you know, many people out there listening, you're gonna say, Yeah, I've got a great idea, I want to get it out, I want to put it in a book. I do want to change the world. And while there's many, many, many books out there, how do you help people write a book that will actually change the world because there's probably not that many that have actually changed the world, meaning change the world,
Kathy Sparrow
change the world, right? But we change one little part of the world, right? If we've gone through some experiences, and come out the other side, and have wisdom that we can impart on others. I think that's the way we affect change. In my academic study, I looked at how the power of story heals. So it's not only active healing, as we're writing, but it's anybody who reads our journey, and sees what we've gone through, you know, in our journey, it doesn't have to be in the book doesn't have to be memoir to bring out the wisdom that we experienced in our lives that can be snippets, right of, and interwoven with some teachings. So I truly believe that if one person gets something out of a book that can impact their lives in a positive way, and that has a ripple effect around everybody around them. So we are essentially changing the world, one reader at a time.
Greg Voisen
I like how you put that because frequently, you know, me doing this podcast show, and I tell people, you know, I've probably got close to 1200 books hanging around because these books have accumulated. And they're almost like, I feel very connected to them. And many of them I've only taken one or two ideas from. But as you add to all those ideas that continue, it's your way to stay a continual learner, about the world and the evolution of the world, and where things are going and how you want to play a role in all that. And I think that's important. Now, this program that we're talking about, write books that change the world, it's a yearlong program. First, some people I hear people write books in three months. For other people, it takes five years. I mean, I've heard the gamut here, why a yearlong program.
Kathy Sparrow
From my experience, it takes about a year, anybody who's really serious and wants to get a book done, it's about a year long process, because it's not just the writing that we're going to look at, we're going to look at building the author platform, building visibility about the book and the author during that program during that year. And also, I really want to teach people about good cover design, and how to get on podcast to jurors. And, you know, use that book as a business building tool. So I've got guest experts that are coming in as well. So in order to get it all in, we need a year, plus, it's about nine months of the writing, and then about three months of production. So we're gonna look at cover design, interior design, go through that production process, learn the ins and outs of, you know, making sure everything's in its place and building a launch, you know, choosing the right time to launch the book that may coincide with another part of most people who are writing it to build their businesses and elevate themselves in some way, even in I shouldn't say even but you know, when if they want to go out speaking that's this is one way to do it as well.
Greg Voisen
Well look at your program differs from other programs. But I think you know, a lot of people today have chosen just because of the length of time it takes to get a book completed. They're going to self-publish, let's just talk about self-publishing, or actually writing a treatment to actually pitch it to a publisher. Are you going to have ways where people can go both directions? Or is this primarily for self-published people?
Kathy Sparrow
So we are part of the program is writing, creating a book marketing plan that sells because whether you're self-publishing or going traditionally, you need that book marketing plan. And I would say that anybody who wants to traditional publishing wants to go that route needs at least 10,000 followers and a large mailing list so that's that's a stumbling block. So we actually this program is a way to start building that following start getting more exposure so that one day they might be able to get that traditional publishing.
Greg Voisen
Well, what are the options Kathy for I mean, I think just fundamentally men And my listeners out there not written a book, but they're thinking about it, they maybe haven't had time to research it, you now have this course. They're self-publishing, there's going to a publisher, there's other kinds of presses as well. Can you tell them about the gamut of how they can actually get their book to market?
Kathy Sparrow
Yes. So self-publishing, it's actually a faster track, you get to choose, you have more control over your product that way, through KDP, Ingram Spark or book baby, and set up an account and, and upload the files. And it's easy as that there are some costs KDP is free to publish. And then there are fees with Ingram Spark or Book Baby. And that just depends on the size of the book and whatnot. And whether you're doing paperback, hardback, or eBook. And then what if,
Greg Voisen
what if you go to an agent like Bill Gladstone? I mean, I know. He's out there trying. And for many of my listeners, they might know waterside productions, they might not they certainly know Simon and Schuster, they certainly know Wiley, they certainly have seen these names and imprints on books. What does that track like?
Kathy Sparrow
That track is a test of patience, the first part and takes a lot longer. Most of those publishing houses unit, you need an agent. So it's the first the first pitch is to an agent, and that takes writing a pitch letter. And if they're interested, then they they'll ask for the proposal and then sample chapters. So takes longer, it could be even after getting accepted, couldn't be another 18 months before you get a contract, and then it then it's another 18 months to get the book published. So it's a lot. So
Greg Voisen
it's your course designed to help people that may want to go that route? Or is it primarily designed for people that are really considering self-publishing,
Kathy Sparrow
it's primarily designed for people who are considering self-publishing. And if someone comes along that has the large enough following, and have salable idea, I will definitely help them go in that direction. In fact, I had an email from an agent who I collaborate with looking for a certain type of genre. So I put on the radar for things and vice versa. So super possible you and
Greg Voisen
I go back to the days of Jack Canfield and Mark Victor Hansen. And they used to do a program around writing your book. And I remember, I would go to those events, and they would bring on all these experts. Now we're in a world today, where you can do this all via zoom, and people can come in online and do that. But we actually ended up in Newport Beach. And with a big binder, and all these people would, you know, pitch their services and so on, speak with us about these experts that you that we'll be joining over the course of the year, or at least just some of them, that the people listening today would at least realize, hey, look, there's quite a bit of value here. I'm gonna get Kathy and I'm gonna get all these other experts as well.
Kathy Sparrow
So, first person that comes to mind is Laurie Seymour of the Buck Institute. She's going to talk about that mindset that's necessary to surrender and be in flow for the creative process, which eventually also helps us with our abundance. Then there's Aaron Whalen, who's actually Jack Canfield copywriter, she's going to be sharing on how to create the story around the story as you're writing your book so that we can start you know, building that visibility during the writing process. There is a Laura Ballerini, who's going to come in and talk about good cover design. And Alex San, Filippo. Okay, got his name, right. He's got a pod matching system. It's called pod Matt 10. And so it helps people find the right ways to, or the right places to pitch for podcasts. And he's going to talk about how to pitch podcasts and how to research the podcasts that you want to pitch. Jackie Lampe and of speaker tunity she has an awesome another database that quite an extensive one to help people find speaking engagements.
Greg Voisen
you've collaborated with all these people and during the course of the year, the listeners can I expect to hear from these people through your course. Now this course is it on? I think it's on Kajabi is it? Is it prerecorded Does it live? What is the actual line modality so it's live,
Kathy Sparrow
it's live, we're gonna meet Thursday afternoons from one to 3pm. Pacific. And then we're also gonna have writing circles on Tuesday mornings, we're actually open up zoom. And I hold space for people to write. So it's making a commitment to yourself to show up and write. But Thursday's are the teachings and some implementation and group work. What I like about having the group come together is that there's some synergy. There's peer feedback already built in. So it's not every Thursday, we there are some breaks. But in the beginning, we start off with three meetings just to kind of get the momentum building, and then we end
Greg Voisen
and this all starts in April. Right. Okay, what's the kickoff date for this?
Kathy Sparrow
April 20?
Greg Voisen
So April 20, is the kickoff date? How many participants will you be accepting into the program? Because I think listeners out there might be going well, I don't know. I don't just want to be with a ton of people. But so how many are you limiting this to
Kathy Sparrow
limiting it to 16? We're gonna have a very small group. And then the
Greg Voisen
next natural question that most people are going to ask is, what is their investment? In other words, they, they need to look at this as an investment. And I need to kind of preface this because, you know, if you went out and got to go straight here, and you went out and found somebody to help you find people to interview because you wanted to put other sections in the book, it can be a costly experience. But this course is a bargain at an investment of what
Kathy Sparrow
$15,997 And there's an early bird discount of $1,500 off by March 20.
Greg Voisen
March 28. Okay, and if you guys don't get that even at 15,997, did you say they get that right? Yeah. You're, you're virtually getting one year of somebody directing you and guiding you to get this book done. And I will tell you, your investment, if you did it another way, could be as much as three times that, depending on where you are in life. But that's not only good for this first book. But imagine if you choose to do a second or third book, all of the lessons learned, are there now Are you recording this where people can come back? Again and again and again and pick back up on some of this? Is that part of the offer for the 15,000?
Kathy Sparrow
Yeah, everything's going to be recorded that and in addition to that, I'll be reading every word and guiding the people in their writing process. So they're getting a lot of high touch,
Greg Voisen
how much coaching time do they actually get with you personally? So if you know they're in with a group, I get that, but are you providing them coaching time as well, individually? Or is this all meant to be kind of a group experience?
Kathy Sparrow
No, there's also five, what I call deep dive sessions, where I'm working with them for an hour and a half, to talk about their process to talk about next steps and, and overcome any challenges and make a plan make a really good plan. So we started the beginning with a disk, you know, deep dive discovery. So I get to know them personally, and what their project is about. And then during the process, we'll be looking at their marketing plan, really diving deep into that and making sure they're thinking about all the possibilities of people that can partner with them to at launch time. And then we'll do the launch. And probably even I think there's one in that. Yeah, there was one there, too, about in the design process. So lots of time, lots of tide Touch Time.
Greg Voisen
Well, I know you've been a literary midwife for quite some time. And, you know, obviously, the way the world has evolved is allowing you to offer this at a much less of a price because you're now aggregating more and more people. Why did you kind of want to do this now? Why this way? And what can they expect in the end? In other words, if once they leave, so let's say April, April, April 2024, they exit your course. What what's the vision look like for them?
Kathy Sparrow
Well, they'll have a book in hand. But they're also going to have a lot of knowledge about what it takes to be a better writer. Most of my people that I've worked with sort of became a much better writer. I found my voice. They're more confident and sharing their information. And it's I'll have a the process, they'll know that, you know, most of my clients are not one book wonders, there's another book in the wings, you know, waiting in the wings, they know they've got to get this first one done, because there's more. So they'll know what they're getting into for the second. And I really believe that it would, it will shorten that process for them, because they'll, they'll have a good working knowledge of needing to be committed to the project. And, you know, knowing how to build the buzz as they're going along. So there's a lot of takeaways, a lot of personal growth for
Greg Voisen
somebody who's out there, and they're listening to us, and they're going, Wow, $16,000, that's a lot of money. Is it all due upfront? Can it be made in payments? What are the ways that you're accepting the payment for this?
Kathy Sparrow
There's actually three different payment plans a three, six, and actually a 12 month payment plan? Because I do know, it's, it's an investment. And so
Greg Voisen
for those listening, that are apprehensive, you can break this down into 12 payments. So it's a little more than 1000 a month. But the reality is, is it's when you look at what you're getting every week, that's a great opportunity for you. And I think, you know, us discussing this is real important, because it's about being transparent about what is it really takes to get this done. Now, could you do this on your own for everyone listening out there, possibly. But the reality is, if you ask any author who's probably authored a book, they'll say it's a team process. And so what Kathy has done is she's put together the team, you have access to this team, you have access to her, you have access to the fellow participants who are in the plan where you can collaborate with as a community. So she's really taken, write a book that changes the world, and given you an opportunity to collaborate with other people that are going through the same journey, as well as bringing these experts in to help you and doing it at an extremely reasonable price. So what do you think makes you stand apart from other writing coaches? In other words, why? Kathy Sparrow? Why write books that change the world course? Why do this online? Why wouldn't I just go hire you as my ghost writer?
Kathy Sparrow
Well, first of all, what makes me stand apart is I come out of the traditional publishing world. I've been in publishing for 30 years, I started as a magazine journalist in upstate New York, and just graduated into the books, you know, starting as a proofreader for IDG books, the for Dummies, people, and then ghost writing and being on the production team for a number of different publishers. And to take it a step further. One, I do have a deep spiritual practice that helps me trust this process. And I did do an academic study and the power of story to heal. And I believe that that's why we were giving these messages to bring out to make a big impact on the world. And why not? Why not hire me to ghost? Right? Well, it would be three times for me to go right. In, I'm open to that. But for, and I also believe there's something about that ownership of having that satisfaction of really seeing what they what you've created at the end of the year. And I just I just love teaching people and seeing that progress, progress that they make, as they're, you know, tending to their baby.
Greg Voisen
Well, and I think one of the things that is a prerequisite for anybody considering this right now, this listening and gets this message is you hidden, I'd say you need to have a big dose of curiosity, you need to be curious about something. So whether you're going to write about, you know, global peace, or you're going to write about, you know, the environment, or you're going to write about personal growth, or what it's ever it's going to be, I think you have to have the passion. You have to have, you have to be curious. You have a really strong purpose. And this needs to be a goal that you have created. And if you have created a goal for yourself to write a book, because I hear so many people say I'm gonna write a book kind of flippantly, right? It's like, oh, yeah, I'm gonna write a book and someday you're gonna write a book. The question is, when is Sunday, and Sunday will never come if you keep talking about it that way. So what I'm going to encourage you to do is to reach out to Kathy, it's Kathy at Kathy sparrow.com. That's one way, you can actually go to her websites. It's Kathy sparrow.com, or a writable life.com. If you want to learn out more about her, and then in this blog, you're basically going to be able to be connected to write books that change the world enroll, which there'll be a special link for that for you to enroll in this. And that's where you can learn more about this as well. Kathy, is there anything you want to say additionally, about the course or what people can expect? Or how they can get enrolled that you want them to know about? Before we part?
Kathy Sparrow
Well, I just, you know, this is an exciting time for me to offer this, I really, really eager to get started actually, it's like I want to bring all these people together and really make an impact on the world. But this is, this is my purpose. And this is my mission to it's like, I know that I've been charged so to speak with helping people get their books out. And nothing brings more joy to me than then working with words and working with people wanting to make an important impact and influence in the world. So and just go to the link and or email me if you have any questions.
Greg Voisen
And I would say in parting, that there's probably no better way to do it. If this podcast that you're listening to inspires you, even if you go out and do it on your own, and you don't sign up for the course more power to you. But if you want to take a journey with some very special people, and actually be with them at the same time and write a book that changes the world, you're going to be inspired, because you're going to go all the way from the ideation to the manifestation, you're going to actually implement this and in the process, one of the things that Kathy is really good at doing is you have a tendency to say, Okay, I'm gonna do it. And then you could put the pen down, but you've got to manage your energy. And I say pen, because it could be writing on your MacBook or whatever. But the point is, you get it. If you don't manage your energy through this process, you can actually end up with half written books, or quarter written books, or three quarter written books, because something distracts you and you can't see it to the end. And I think most importantly, with any goal, it's about seeing it to the end. It's about it's about the manifestation, the birth of the midwifing of this book. And I think that's the point I really would like to get across is that it is usually Writing a book is not a salience process. It's with, there's people helping you, you get there. And it takes quite a little team to actually make this happen. It isn't just one person. So Kathy, thanks for being on inside personal growth, sharing your wisdom about being a literary midwife, and about your new course called write books that change the world. For all of my listeners, check out the blog, check out Kathy's website, and we will go from there. Namaste to you, Kathy.
Kathy Sparrow
Thank you, Greg. It's always a pleasure chatting with you.
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Inside Personal Growth with Greg Voisen · Podcast 1001: Love Your Team with Helen FanucciMy guest for this podcast is Helen Fanucci. She is a team builder, a business leader, an advisor to technology growth companies, a podcaster, and sought-after keynote speaker. And today, we’re gonna discuss her bestselling book released last November 2022 entitled Love Your Team: A Survival Guide for Sales Managers in a Hybrid World.
Helen is an MIT-trained engineer who has built her reputation and career managing teams responsible for billions of dollars of quota. She developed the Love Your Team system of sales management over a 25-year career on the front lines at top tech companies including Apple, Sun Microsystems, IBM, and Microsoft. Helen also hosts the Love Your Team podcast, which focuses on building strong high-performing team cultures.
And last November 2022, she released Love Your Team: A Survival Guide for Sales Managers in a Hybrid World which became bestselling. The book is a conversation-by-conversation survival guide for sales managers who want to thrive in a world where their top talent can walk out the door without taking a single step. Detailed instructions on how to shift focus from merely hitting sales goals to putting sellers first were also included in the book.
If you want to know more about Helen and her works, and/or listen to her podcasts, you may click here to visit her website.
I hope you enjoy my engaging interview with Helen Fanucci. Happy listening!
You may also refer to the transcripts below for the full transciption (not edited) of the interview.
Interview Transcipt -Not EditedEmailDownloadNew TabGreg Voisen
Welcome back to Inside Personal Growth. This is Greg Voisen, the host of Inside Personal Growth and joining from Tucson, Arizona is Helen. How do you say your last name, I don't want to mispronounce it. Fa-nu-cci, a good Italian girl. So we got Helen on Love Your Team: A Survival Guide for Sales Managers in a Hybrid World. And I would say this is not just only just for sales managers, anybody in sales, listening should be listening to Helen and understanding what's going on. But Helen, I'm gonna let them know a little bit about you. She's an international keynote speaker. She's podcast, podcast host, we were just talking about a transformational leader. She was with Microsoft. She's now not. She's passionate about building strong cultures, has a track record of leading sales and marketing teams, for the last 25 years deliver exceptional business results. The foundation of our success stems from focusing on our teams first. And the results second, understanding team members motivations, aspirations and supporting their success drives business performance. None of that would be possible without the underpinnings of a strong collaboration and communication platform. As I said, she recently has retired from Microsoft. But she also was the General Manager at ito device in Accenture sales and general manager for solution sales and complete team before joining Microsoft. And she held numerous sales and marketing roles at IBM Apple Computer, Sun Microsystems and Silicon Valley in London, England. And she earned her bachelor's degree in mechanical engineering from MIT. So go figure, someone with a degree from MIT and mechanical engineering went into sales. That's kind of unusual Hallett. Yeah,
Helen Fanucci
well, you know, I was in Silicon Valley as an engineer, and I wanted to be where the action is. And that's out with customers, helping them use technology, not in the back room making the technology so I transition to sales when I was with IBM.
Greg Voisen
Well tell our listeners a little bit about that. Because you this your background is fascinating. We don't always find people that have gotten degrees in MIT in engineering, kind of going, well, I'm gonna go into sales. You just said a little bit about it. But really about that, and why you wrote this book. Because this book, in essence, didn't take the engineers approach. But in one sense, it did. It broke everything down into a process, which is the way that an engineer thinks that's not always the way a salesperson thinks. But that is the way an engineer thinks and you did break it down into a process.
Helen Fanucci
Yeah. So when I set out to write the book, and we can, you know, talk about why and how for sure, um, but when I set out to write the book, I reflected on what I do as a sales leader. And I realized I have conversations with my team. That might seem obvious, but I got curious and like, what kind of conversations Am I having that have led to my success and capability to empower my team and help them achieve, you know, big results, I've carried multi-billion dollar quotas. I've supported my team with big deals to big customers. And so I did a little research on myself and I broke down over a two month period, the conversations I had with my team and distilled it into 17 core conversations, which is really the guts of the book, I decided to make it a how to book. So my intent was that you're, you know, have a performance management issue, you can go to the performance management chapter. And I break it down consistently. This is how, you know, traditional sales manager would handle performance management. This is how a lot of your team manager does it, how to spot the need for the conversation, how to conduct the conversation, how to assess if it worked. So in that sense, I can see how it's kind of a engineers approach because it's logical and laid out. But first and foremost, it's intended to be helpful to the reader who might be struggling with managing remote teams, accustomed to having people in the office, or just wants to learn maybe some new strategies for empowering their team and delivering high performance and outstanding results
Greg Voisen
in it Does that and I love the way you approached it except especially the process part because for sales managers, they, they need to have that, right. It's, it's a structure. And they're always looking for ways if they're dynamic and curious, as you said, to find better ways to work with their teams. Now, you back in July of 2021, your topic for a talk was sales leadership in a hybrid world. Speak with us about loving your team and the importance of keeping and retaining talented salespeople. In a world where attracting and retaining top talent can be challenging today, whether it's sales or management or whatever it is, and your trepidation at the time, you had a tremendous trepidation about using the term love your team. But it worked out really well. Because the gentleman who wrote the introduction to your book only had huge praise. He was skeptical when you use the term love your team. But then when he saw the results, he flipped over didn't mean?
Helen Fanucci
Yeah, so this was in the midst, if you recall, of the great resignation, where 4 million people were leaving their companies every month. And so it was the end of July 21. And the topic was basically retaining top talent. So when I got to the slide talking about that, I thought, gosh, you know, where do I put care for your team support your team. And what was authentic for me was love your team. And I was nervous. And I told the audience, look, I'm kind of nervous about this, using the love word in a business context in a business conference. But that was what was authentic to me. And so I unpacked it and talked about, you know, the sentiment, but also love as an action. So understanding your team members personally, and what they care about, and figuring out how to help support them achieving what they care about on their terms. And so building trust, and building a relationship with them, because you'll find some team members, they want, you know, flexibility of when and where they work, maybe they have to drop kids off at eight in the morning for school. And so I don't schedule team meetings during that time. Or perhaps, you know, they have other ambitions, like being a manager, and so that I will support that and do some things to help them achieve that goal. So it is honestly it's no different than what I would expect the sellers to do with their customers, because they've got to understand what customers care about on customer's terms, and how are we going to make that happen, and deliver the results that customers are looking for? So it's kind of our harmonious, you know, approach. But at the time, yes, I was nervous. But I got such great response from the audience. And I actually got questions about well, how do I actually go about doing that? And do you have any more information about how you've done it? So that really was a catalyst for me writing the book, because I thought, oh, there's something here that makes sense. And that is resonating. And so that led me in, I guess, September of 21, to hire a book coach to help me organize and structure writing a book because I knew I didn't know what to do.
Greg Voisen
You got it done. And it's an excellent book you did. And, you know, being influenced by being at Microsoft, which now you're not there anymore, but is it Satya Nadella, I don't want to miss produce his name, but he really was somebody who worked on culture and still is. I mean, he even wrote a book about it. I haven't had him on the show yet, but I'm going to just keep pounding at him on the show. But you know, that shift with inside the culture at Microsoft was a huge reason why he was hired. Three that I don't think things were quite the way they are now at Microsoft. And I don't want to just say softer, I want to say more compassionate, more understanding, which somebody like him would be now you speak about the new experiment that he tried which was the power of empathy being practiced in a culture? How, what impact did that have? on you while you were working there with salespeople? Because it had to have actually influence the book as well. And the writing of the book and everything, I'm sure that he's had some impact on you.
Helen Fanucci
Yeah, well, I'm a big fan of his, and I experienced some Microsoft culture before Satya, and it was more a culture of fear, and being the smartest person in the room, and people would as Brene, Brown would say, armor up, you know, before the presentation and like, you know, have a persona about them where, you know, don't ask me questions, I know, a lot. You know, I'm the smartest person in the room. And that was, the thing about that, if you is, it doesn't allow for a conversation about what's really going on. If there's that fear culture. And I think Satya, you know, he had been at Microsoft 20 plus years before he became CEO. And I think he recognize that without a culture, where there's trust, and authentic conversations and transparency, you actually can't get people, you know, to move and adapt when there is a change in the market as there is. So if you're gonna have your troops, if you will follow you or your employees follow you, there's got to be a level of trust and transparency to be able to move more quickly as conditions change. And so that's a pragmatic business approach. And goodness, during COVID, you know, everybody went home. And, you know, we had already or he and his leadership team had already implemented expectations for managers of manage, coach and care for your team. And so that, you know, that kind of approach was really he credits with making it so seamless, if you will, for people to go and work from home, as well as continue on with the needs of the business and needs of customers. So it has become a, I would say, more compassionate and gentler company, in many respects, for example, there is an expectation, at least in the group, I just laughed and managed by, you know, incredible leaders, that we don't send emails at night or after business hours or on weekends. And we get, you know, when we're sending an email, we would get something Well, this is outside the recipients business hours, are you sure you want to send it? Or do you want to do a delay, so it pops into their inbox the next morning, and it was never that way? Previously? Yeah. And it's just again, respecting people's boundaries and work schedules. And then when we work, we work and it's all you know, we have strong financial metrics. And so it's not, you're expected to hit your metrics, of course, whether you're in an engineering organization, or in a sales work organization. So that part hasn't changed. But I think it definitely creates a culture of where people are happier in general, or if there's issues and I mean, gosh, mental health and anxiety particularly during COVID You know, there's space for people to take time off. And I think it's really important, important because work is just human beings getting the job done. And if we can't be human with each other, then I think we miss the opportunity to really have a an amazing work environment and also deliver amazing results.
Greg Voisen
Well, look, loving your team, no matter who you are out there, and what you're selling can only improve the efficiency and the desire for somebody to want to perform for you. Right? Because there's so much of it missing from the world period. When I mean that I mean love, compassion, understanding. And you know, we live in a world which is, you know, moving at high, high speeds. We have other things in our lives besides work. And just keeping kids in a relationship together and keeping things going is challenging for everybody at best. I understand that. And, you know, you mentioned the key to extinction is adaptation. And sales managers are the missing link to optimizing the adaptation to maximize fitness in the what you call the new hybrid world. And I'm not saying that the sales managers are the mothers or the fathers of the, of the operation, but in essence they are, it's, you know, people used to say, Oh, I go to HR, because I could at least get 90% of the time, the person in HR was a woman, it was like having a mother to talk to, it was somebody that I could speak with. And I, you know, I've worked in businesses. So I know, and having a sales manager didn't used to be that way. It wasn't like, oh, well, this sales manager, because they've given me a quota, or they've given me this metrics that I've got to meet is somebody that I want to go talk to what are the attributes of a loved your team sales manager? And why has it shifted so much?
Helen Fanucci
Yeah, great questions. So the attributes have a lot, you know, kind of the principles are building trust with your team, and having some transparency as a way to build trust and like caring for the team members. And one of the things I do when I meet a new team, because often I'll take over as a leader of an existing team, is I tell them a little bit about myself, I have like three slides, PowerPoint slides, I tell them about myself, my family, etc, where I live, what I like to do. And then the second slide is kind of my leadership principles. And one of the principles is, you know, transparency, and, you know, no surprises. And the thing that where I've heard from so many people after reading the book is that there are situations where the seller is in fear of telling their manager that a deal is going to fall out of the pipeline, for fear of getting fired. And it really robs the manager of the opportunity to help that seller get the deal on track. And so that kind of adversarial relationship and a fear relationship. And, you know, you've got to get the deal at all costs, well, are you sacrificing a relationship with a customer to cram something down their throat are you, you know, trying to, you know, it's just, it creates a bad situation at work. And that's the opposite of love your team approach, and I don't think it's effective anymore, particularly because your top talent won't put up with it, they have choice, they can walk out the door without taking a single step and go work for somebody else remotely. And a sales manager literally cannot make their quota without keeping their top talent. If you do the math, it's like three quarters of an annual quota that they're risking, if a top talent walks out the door, because it takes time to hire, and then for that individual to be at full strength, and if the replacement individual even works out. So
Greg Voisen
one of your podcasts, pardon me, Helen, you talk about that. I was watching the podcast. And you were explaining to these other two gentlemen, who were sales leaders that, you know, assume x, which is the factor that the person produces, in a quarter, say, a quarter million dollars, that it literally costs you a quarter million dollars to actually ramp back up again. Because you have to go hire, train, recruit, find somebody, you know, put them in the position. So you know, you need to think twice about losing somebody in a top position, who is producing millions of dollars for your company and sales. Right.
Helen Fanucci
Right. Exactly. Right. Yeah. And, you know, my the metrics for my team, of course, we all have quota and revenue expectations. But I have non-revenue expectations as well, that they're building stronger relationships with their customers, higher, you know, executives, higher level executives, or more broadly in other parts of the business. So there's a lot of things that I look at and I have conversations with my team to make sure their performance is on track. And equally, you've got to address underperformers otherwise you also can't keep your top talent, they won't stick around. So there's a lot on the manager in terms of enabling facilitate in supporting the team, as well as making sure that people are performing, and if not stepping up and addressing that as well, and being open minded enough to give that person the ability and coaching so that they can step up and perform. And I know that not everyone wants to do that managers sometimes don't address performance, until they're so frustrated, there's kind of no capacity for them to tolerate that individual anymore. And that's also a shame.
Greg Voisen
Well, you know, this comes down to coaching. And, you know, I know that you read coaching habits, Michael has been on the show several times about his books, and where he recommends that you stay curious a bit longer. And I think curiosity is a really big element here. Because as Steven Kotler says, focus is for free. Curiosity is something that we need to have. And then we develop it into a purpose after we're curious about something. And then after that purpose, we can develop our mission vision values and goals and set steps to try and reach that. But the curiosity is something that's really important, how would you help sales leaders learn this important skill of staying curious? Just a little bit longer? Because, you know, look at I've done over 1000 podcasts now, I'm an extremely curious person. I'm always interested in learning more about a topic, right? Or I probably wouldn't do this show. But I see if there's one thing about me, which is an extreme positive, and sometimes they you lose a little bit of focus when you're super curious. But how would you tell leaders to be more curious?
Helen Fanucci
Okay, so I think it goes hand in glove with a value that also sought to introduced called having a growth mindset. If you're familiar with Carol Dweck, and her mindset book, yeah. So when you think about it, you know, having a growth mindset is okay, I'm not, I'm open to learning. I'm not a fixed individual, and neither is my team. And so if someone's doing something, you go, Hey, what, you know, you know, how's that going for you, you might realize you might have a have an assessment, that they're not being as effective as they could be in a conversation and ask them how it's going for them? Are they delivering? Are they getting the outcome they hoped for? Is there any, you know, what kind of support can I give you right now? And asking a few questions. Because I know that when folks from my team bring me issues, or blockers, or things are struggling with that, I don't have all the background information that they have. And so I'm trying to understand and uncover and also help them uncover a step forward. So for example, it might be one of my sales managers had, you know, an executive that just got hired that wanted to come into her account? Well, she's like, wait a minute, he doesn't have any relationships with anybody, he wants me to give him access. I don't feel so good about that. So it's like we kind of talked that through. And she ended up realizing or coming to the conclusion that she needed to have more time with that individual to really understand and dive into what they could offer and be more open to, this is what she decided be more open to the value that an individual could provide. So for sales managers, I think it's really a decision that they're going to how they interact and approach it, are they going to empower their team to come up with their own solutions? Or are they in the mode of telling or you know, if someone brings a problem with this is what you should do? Well, then you actually aren't using collective thinking. It's an approach but I don't think it's as effective. And I also want to grow my team. I can't be all over the place where they are they need to do their job and I expect them to stand on their own two feet. So there's things I do like, if they're doing an important customer presentation. I'm in the back ground, you know, off camera, you know, after the introductions, I take notes and action items for them. So we can debrief and they can be present in the customer presentation.
Greg Voisen
Yeah, I think that's why you were speaking, that old statement came up for me, people or salespeople don't care how much you know, until they know how much you care. Meaning that, you know, that statement has been around forever. But it's so important as a sales manager. Because you're talking about loving your team, it means you're talking about coaching and caring for them, you know, and you said, you were apprehensive, you didn't weren't apprehensive about using the word caring when you did that first speech, because you said when I could use caring, but in essence, you know, hey, a sales manager may have some solutions. But I think the solutions for the most part are co-created, because they're co created out of that the sales manager being a sounding board, understanding where I'm finding challenges and either moving the prospect toward a conclusion and solution of some type. And also, knowing that I don't have to be in fear, you said that of whether I made that sale, or I didn't make that sale, we'd love for you to, but you don't win them. All. Right. So you know, it's a big world out there, there's a lot of competition, and you have to be at the top of your game. And on top of it, your pricing has to be good as well. So it's all in it's a combination of so many different things. And you have three love your team principles that help make the love your team system that you've created, work in every conversation. What are those? And then you also mentioned the five categories of conversations that build trust. Can you mention those for the listeners as well?
Helen Fanucci
Yeah, so the three principles are trust, transparency, and caring, and I break those down in the book. But those are foundational. And then the 17 conversations are broken into five categories. So the first five, conversation chapters are around conversations of connection. And so that's again, foundational to building trust and relationship. And then conversations of performance, conversations of strategies. So customer strategy, business strategy, conversation, conversations of customer engagement, and then conversations on of internal alignment. Because in a big corporation, like Microsoft sellers have to mobilize extended teams and resources on behalf of the customer. And there's a lot of stakeholders. So getting an alignment across the organization is a foundational skill. And I felt like that was worthy of a couple chapters, because it is such a big topic, and so much time is spent in large organizations.
Greg Voisen
Well keep in mind, too, you are probably selling some pretty high ticket items, right? It wasn't like, Hey, here's the $50,000 sale, it's more like, here's the million dollar sale or something, is that correct?
Helen Fanucci
Hundreds of millions of dollars, yes, some of these contracts, right.
Greg Voisen
And it takes time to evolve the relationship to get there with the client. And then on the client side, if they're going to be buying hundreds of millions of dollars of support from Microsoft, you can imagine the teams they work inside their company. So it's the collaboration from both sides to actually accomplish a very large sale like this. So those conversations of connections are really important to build the transparency to build the knowledge and understanding that's going on. And you mail you mentioned that selling in a world today is a team sport. It's a team sport. In many businesses, I think still I see today. Where it isn't is still a team sport. There's many industries where it's still, hey, if you're going to buy blinds for your house, it's probably someone knocking at your door with the blinds trying to convince you to buy it. And that we must work collaboratively. So anybody out there who's in a team that is collaborative, speak about the importance of conversations of internal alignment and how important they are to these large sales. You did speak about it a bit just now. But there is something much more deep because when I'm managing with inside Microsoft, maybe Do two or three teams to get this thing done? And then I've got the buyer who's doing the same thing, the complexity of that, you know, I know for a fact that many of these sales can take over a year. Sometimes they take two years, you're working on him for a long time. And for the people who are measuring your metrics, they're concerned is when is it going to close? When are we going to get the jack?
Helen Fanucci
Well, you know, I actually think transactions are kind of an outdated concept. Well, in large b2b sales. So we might, you know, we also get paid for the consumption of, for example, our cloud service. So the deal closes. But then the customer success team is helping the customer use that technology. So one of the conversations of connection, one of the examples I give in the book is where, you know, customer success is implementing a project and there's problems. And then my seller comes to me and says, a customer's really upset. But we've closed the deal. And customer success isn't doing their job or what have you. And I see emails go back and forth. So I call a timeout, because email does not equal communication. Let's get on the phone, let's have a team's video call. So I get the, you know, the customer success team, my team engineering happens to be involved because it's an early adopter customers well, and it turns out that while we sold a deal to the customer, they the way that they've implemented, they were running out of storage capacity. So we had to present a choice to the customer, either optimize your storage or buy more. And so customer success was running into that challenge. So that's an example of getting everyone on the same page coming up with a strategy. And, you know, I know that there's a common term of, you know, swim lanes, we're in our swim lane, that's an outdated term to, I think it's more of like a freeway, you move back and forth across lanes, and maybe the whole team needs to lean in on with a customer success person, because we've got to problem solve together for the sake of the customer. And so not all internal alignment is pre sales, of course, there's a lot that is because of the complexity, even get in alignment, on pricing, and deal discounts or investments we might make. There's many layers to that as well, as you might expect.
Greg Voisen
It is it's very complicated. It can get very complicated. But I can imagine, like you said, swim lanes versus freeways, you know that the, the situation for many teams in team selling is really flexibility. You know, it's like you just said, it's not, we can't just box it up and put hard corners on the box, right? And then say, this is what it is. There's a lot of moving parts and pieces that somebody's trying to manage to keep customer satisfaction have high at the same time to when a new element of a contract, maybe it's not a whole new contract, maybe it's an addition to something right that you've got going on that you're working on. And I can only imagine the complexities of all that. Now the book is, in my estimation, a guide for sales managers, right. In it is it's a guide book, this is a great guide book, in your opinion, what are the most important actions that a sales manager could take to build the culture of alignment and understanding? And what three bits of advice would you want to leave our listeners with about that?
Helen Fanucci
Well, first of all, get to know your team. Members, find out what matters to them on their terms, figure out how, how you can help support them what you can do, to make sure that they achieve the goals that they're after. And then also make sure that you have a system for checkpointing with them periodically. So I do a half hour every two weeks, with my team that's outside of the normal forecasting process to check in with them and make sure that, you know, I'm understanding how they're doing personally, but also that they're on track. So finding out what matters to them, figuring out what you can do to support that. And having a process for regular check points and conversation with your team.
Greg Voisen
That's awesome. And I think, most importantly, every day, take a deep breath before you take an action. Because you don't want to regret some of the things you might write in an email or some of the things that you might say to somebody. And I think if you do just take a pause, right, I know, for my listeners, everybody out there, we do enough shows on meditation and mindfulness. But really being a good sales manager is also about being a very mindful sales manager, and somebody who would implement things that they would want to have happened to them if they were in the position as a seller, right. So want to thank you for being on the show. And spending time with us. It was a pleasure having you on. And would you want to leave the listeners with anything else at this point?
Helen Fanucci
I think that that's good. Um, people can reach me on LinkedIn.
Greg Voisen
Yep. And you're going to, we're going to direct them as well, her to the website, which is loveyourteam.com. We're going to direct you to a link to Amazon to buy the book. So you can go there. But you can find everything there. Information about Helen, the book, contacting her, the podcasts, like she was saying earlier, not as current as she would like to be with those podcasts. But we'll see if we can get her going back and doing those again. But at this point, thank you so much, Helen. Namaste to you for being on the show. Spending some time with our listeners to talk about your new book. Love your team, a survival guide for sales managers in a hybrid world. Helen, pleasure having you on.
Helen Fanucci
Thank you so much, Greg.
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Inside Personal Growth with Greg Voisen · Podcast 1000: Conscious Creation: 5 Steps to Embracing the Life of Your Dreams with TJ WoodwardIt is with pride and honor to celebrate a milestone of 1000 podcasts. And joining us in this special episode is TJ Woodward featuring one of his books from August 2021 entitled Conscious Creation: 5 Steps to Embracing the Life of Your Dreams.
TJ is a bestselling author, inspirational speaker, and revolutionary recovery expert who has helped countless people through his simple, yet powerful teachings. Utilizing his captivating and authentic style, he assists people in literally changing the way they exist through his informative and dynamic talks and trainings.
TJ also is the creator of The Conscious Recovery Method, which is a ground breaking and effective approach to viewing and treating addiction. This method has been translated into writings through his bestselling books. One of those is Conscious Creation: 5 Steps to Embracing the Life of Your Dreams. This book enables you to embrace the life of your dreams, that even if you’ve been searching for years, you can still uncover more of what seems to be blocking you and more fully embody your deepest vision.
Know more about TJ, Conscious Creation and his other amazing works by clicking here to visit his website.
I hope you enjoy my engaging interview with TJ Woodward. And again, thank you for being with me in this milestone. Happy listening!
You may also refer to the transcripts below for the full transciption (not edited) of the interview.
Interview Transcipt -Not EditedEmailDownloadNew TabGreg Voisen
Well, welcome back to Inside personal growth. This is Greg Voisen, the host of Inside Personal Growth. And TJ, everybody knows me. I've been doing this 16 years over 1000 podcasts. It's really about you today. On the other end line, joining us from Los Angeles, California is TJ Woodward. Good day to you. TJ, how you doing?
TJ Woodward
I'm great. Greg, I'm excited about this conversation. I know we have a lot in common. So I'm really excited to be here with you.
Greg Voisen
Well, likewise, I mean, you are a fascinating individual. For my listeners. To learn more about TJ, start this off, right, we're going to be talking about his book called conscious creation. He has three books, to his credit, but conscious creation. He's got conscious recovery. We'll talk a little bit about that. And the conscious recovery methods, but you can reach him at T J. woodward.com. What's TJ stand for? John
TJ Woodward
bat is a very long story. I was never anything but TJ. So everything's been legally changed at TJ at this point. So okay. All sorts of things. I can tell you what the kids called me at the different ages, they came up with a lot of creative things that it stood for. Let's leave it at that.
Greg Voisen
Okay. So we won't ask you what's on your birth certificate. So the reality is, your parents did name you some first name and some metal name. But that's great. I love it. So for my listeners, before we get into conscious creation, because creativity is a conscious process, you got to really be intuitive to TJ might know this. My listeners definitely know this. I wrote a book called hacking the gap, a journey from intuition to innovation and beyond. And what you realize about conscious creativity is it comes through you, right? And you have to be listening and you got to be aware. So we're going to be talking about that. Which is why I'm excited to talk to GJ TJ, I'm gonna let people know about you. He's helped countless people through his simple yet powerful teachings. Again, go to TJ woodward.com. And he's also got an amazing YouTube channel. Anybody wants to see YouTube videos on the three books on the teachings go up to his all you gotta do is type in when you're at YouTube. TJ Woodward is going to come up. He's got 1000s of listeners to and viewers. He's an inspirational speaker educator, He enlightens entertains audiences around the world. As an addiction treatment specialists, TJ assists treatment programs and achieving brilliant results. Through program development, curriculum designed and clinical trainings. He was given a distinct honor of being selected as a thought leader on wholehearted dot O R G. Check that out. Along with Marianne Williamson, we were just talking about her before we got on she's running for president Brene Brown, and Mark Lundholm. He's also the founder of Ministry of the Agape Bay Area in Oakland, which is where he used to live, which was the first satellite community of the Agape international spiritual center, which is Michael Beckwith. We all know, in 2018, he also hosted and does host conscious being radio show on Unity online radio, and awakening living TV show in San Francisco. He published the books which we said, the first one was conscious being awakening to your true nature. 2015. The second book was conscious recovery, a fresh perspective on addiction was released December 2017. And his third book, which we're going to be talking about today, mainly, is conscious creation, five steps to embrace the life of your dreams. And we'll put a link to Amazon to that book. But obviously, if you just type in TJ Woodward, you're going to come up with all three books. He TJ graduated from spiritual development program 2011 and graduated from leadership program, both at Unity Institute. Well, TJ, fascinating background. Obviously, spirituality has been one of the things that's been your calling. You know, people could say, well, they used to tell me I was the undercover evangelist when I would go into businesses and teach what I thought. And the reality is, there is a truth to that. I think there's many I told people that I used to drive around when I was very young, back when there were cassette players in cars, and I would listen to Norman Vincent Peale. Day in and day out and day in and day out. And I will tell you the days I was extremely depressed, he was my inspiration to keep me going. And I think you need someone like that you need somebody like TJ, go watch those videos. Now, TJ, in one of your videos at your YouTube site, you have a whole section dedicated to this conscious creation book. And in the beginning, one, you know, you speak about abundance, you know, where there's, the secret came out, right? And everybody was all around the secret and you're gonna pull abundance into your life. And abundance is one way to get creation, right to create it in your life to manifest something in your life. What did you find out about meditation and creating things in your life that really made this journey different and that you really believe people that are going to read your book are going to have an aha moment to?
TJ Woodward
Well, it starts with what you are already saying, right? The law of attraction, the secret came out, and there's a big focus on manifestation. What do we manifest and when we talk about that, we generally hear what we're attracting to us, right? Maybe we talk about changing our thinking so that we can attract a different type of partner or more money in our life and more fulfilling work situation. Maybe we talk about attracting more love into our life, what I'm talking about is something really different, which I'm sure we'll dive into, but we're really talking about tapping into deep inner wisdom and radiating a frequency radiating into the world. So a shift from the law of attraction to the law of radiance. And in my own journey, as
Greg Voisen
you said, now not to interrupt you, and I apologize, because I gotta get this thought out the rate at which we vibrate. So it's our consciousness, you know, when you actually showed a picture on the video of outline of a body with a vibration, right? And I believe there's a lot to that, because there's so many people that are dense, the vibration level is not super high. And you know, when you feel you can feel that if your tune, how did you become so attune to actually ascertaining this vibration level?
TJ Woodward
Well, it came through me trying to change my thinking and spending many, many years, you know, I came into new thought in 1988. And I really grabbed on to this idea of changing your thinking change in your life. So I became aware of that I did the vision boards, I did all the things, right, the things about manifestation. And Greg, to tell you the truth, I manifested everything that I put on the vision board, all the thoughts that I had. And I realized that it didn't really change the way I felt. And I had this sort of existential crisis of now what, and I realized that it really isn't about our thinking, it's really about our vibration. And that vibration going out into the world naturally matches. And so there's a paradox here. As soon as I realized that all the stuff that I was trying to manifest wasn't going to make me happy that this really was about tapping into deep inner wisdom and the vibration of that, then I radiated that into the world. And then of course, the greatest paradox is now I have a life that's deeply fulfilling, more abundant than, than it's ever been a life more on purpose. So it really is about frequency much more than it is about just our thoughts.
Greg Voisen
You know, how do you sustain that? You know, it's one thing for us to sit here and talk about it. And it's another to say, what are the practices that one uses to sustain it now I know, we can talk about mindfulness, we can talk about meditation, contemplation, silence, you know, in the whisk, walking in the woods, going to the beach, all those things, but sometimes, you know, I'm surprised by what authors are doing. And the listeners always want to know, you know, it's like, okay, I get what you're saying. But I need to stay in this vibration level, and I can't be dragged down by all the negativity around me, the news, the media, the whatever. I can only take parts of that in that I that I think I need. So what would you advise people today because the world is moving so fast. We're at lightning speed, in my estimation, from where we used to be. We can't hardly even pay attention because our cell phones are dinging banging, doing whatever. We've got now videos used to be eight, nine minutes long. Now they're saying well, can you say it in 37 seconds? Right. And so that whole attention deficit disorder that I believe almost everybody has, what do you do to fix that? Well,
TJ Woodward
I think it is interesting because now we call a six minute video long form that used to be a short video, I think I'm in my conscious creation process, there's a very simple premise. And that is we're always creating our life, either unconsciously or consciously. And so you named a lot of the practices that help us slow down and tap into inner wisdom. But in my process, in my five step process, I start with making peace with the past and overcoming core false beliefs. Right? I assure you, this is answering your question, because if I haven't done that deeper work of releasing or living beyond the stories, the ideas and the beliefs that keep me limited, I am then being bounced around by the world, the news will throw me off center, the phone call will throw me off center. So it really is about awareness, awareness, awareness, it is about those spiritual practices that you mentioned. I think an important piece though, is what needs to be released or overcome, in order for us to actually be in this vibration, because a lot of times we hear raise your vibration, but actually it's about what needs to be released so that we can tap into really the core vibration that we are, which is an infinite being.
Greg Voisen
Yeah, I love that in the video. Now, one of the things we did you and I before we got on this call, was we set an intention for our listeners, and for ourselves. And one of your five is making peace with the past overcoming false overcoming core false beliefs, visioning intention setting, underline, and embodying your vision. If you would talk about the steps, the change that will happen to the listeners if they follow these steps, and going from being an unconscious being to being a conscious being vibrating at a completely different level.
TJ Woodward
Yeah, so I promised myself some years ago, I would never be that person who had the three steps to success are the eight steps. And then I created this five steps to embracing the life of your dreams, of course, and I use the acronym movie. So you already talked about the first two steps making peace with the past and overcoming core false beliefs. In my experience, most people start with the intention setting or the goal setting. January one, we set our goals, we set our intentions, and then we strive toward them. And what I'm offering is the importance of the clearing steps, what needs to be addressed, what do we need to be aware of? What are those things from our past that we're carrying around with this that are coloring our present? And therefore our future? And what are the core false beliefs that we're walking around with that are keeping us stuck and limited, or at least we believe they are. So those clearing steps are really important, because once we get to the V visioning, which I'm sure we're going to talk more about, it really is about listening very intently to inner wisdom, as I mentioned, and I know you and I know that that's a very different way of creating, it's not what do I want to manifest? And how do I make it happen? It's let me be a blank canvas here or an empty vessel and listen intently. And those messages that come from vision are way more powerful than anything I could create, in my mind.
Greg Voisen
It is, and I think sometimes people are stuck around that one. So when I want to get there with you, because even you and I get stuck in a we're not beyond like, okay, we're supposed to manifest this vision. And sometimes people don't see it in their mind's eye. Right. And, you know, I think it was Napoleon Hill. He talked about mastermind groups and having people have support around you and being able to actually reach your goals and attain your goals. What is it that you do to embody and hold the vision? And I know, you said you had the vision boards, right. And I know some people take the time to do them. On the other hand, what would be the hackers way to get there?
TJ Woodward
Well, I mean, I think the concept right, because we are living in a culture where what's the hack and in some ways there is there are hacks because the vision board is really visualization. And I want to draw a distinction between visualization and visioning. With visualization. We get the vision board, we do the cutouts, you know, the magazine, the pictures of what we want to manifest, we hold that picture and then we attract it with visioning, where with the best of intentions, we release any preconceived ideas, and we listened to inner wisdom. So in some ways we can say the hack is releasing any idea of what I think I know I want and really spending dedicated time in the silence of course that can be also considered a much longer practice. But we can have spontaneous insight that is really different than just trying to figure out what we want. So visualization is we figure out what we want, we hold that picture in our mind, and we attract it into our lives. That's kind of that paradigm. visioning is something really different. The vision board is blank. And we listen to inner wisdom, and we listen to those subtle, and then sometimes not so subtle inner messages that can take our life in a really different direction.
Greg Voisen
Yeah, and I want to address something because you said it earlier. And there's a great author out there. Elizabeth Gould, wrote a book called feeling forwards. And she's been on the show. And she speaks about your emotions, you were talking about our emotions to put ourselves in that position. So it's like, can you feel yourself being there? Can you carry the essence, the vibration, the emotion of being there? What would you comment about, because I think that's just as important as doing the vision board. And having the vision is to actually feel yourself there.
TJ Woodward
That's right. And that's the E embodying the vision and my five step process, it's really holding, because that is that frequency. And that frequency shows up physically, intellectually, emotionally, and spiritually. So it is true that thoughts have a frequency and what you're speaking to is also very important, and that is the feeling tone, as Michael Beckwith calls it, or the emotion and you know, that might be different, or it might be the same. But what would it actually feel like to be fully in this vision? And that is such an important thing, because then what happens is, we do actually tune into that vibration and emotions are a big part of it. What would it feel like to have this manifest? I remember when I was opening my first business in the late 90s, I would imagine myself on a daily basis, being in that business running that business, what would it feel like? What would be the emotions? And I spent dedicated time really feeling into that? And then of course, we know frequencies align, and it does feel like magic, because suddenly doors open where there were only walls before.
Greg Voisen
It's so true. And what was that business? TJ?
TJ Woodward
It was a furniture, well, it was a gift store, a furniture store. And, you know, that was the that really was a time in my life, when I thought, Oh, if I just get this, I'm going to be happy. There's a whole story there. But essentially, about seven years into having that business, I had a deeper for me, it's a deeper calling into doing spiritual work. And at some point, everything fell apart. And I realized, wow, this is time to shift from visualization to visioning. That was a profound moment in my life.
Greg Voisen
Yeah, you know, as you speak about that, store it I reflect on, I've gotten hooked on these two guys in New York, Jeremiah, and whatever their designers, and do you know them, they're two gay men. And they're in New York, and they go to all these antique stores to try and find this stuff, and then repurpose it and put it back. But it's fascinating. That, you know, you talk about four levels of consciousness, that state and they simply provide a framework for something that is actually as fluid and intricate. Do you talk to the listeners about these four levels of consciousness? Because, you know, I've heard so many, you know, it's like, okay, I'm rising up in my level of consciousness. I know at Self Realization fellowship, we typically talk about the chakras, the crown chakra, all the way down through and the five chakras, right? But we're trying to get connection with a higher spirit, at the highest level of consciousness during meditation to make that connection, so that you can hold that within you, as you go throughout your day. Speak with the listeners about these levels of consciousness and this forward progression from level one to level four, as you call it. Yeah. And
TJ Woodward
so I've given them different names that I'll start with him, because my mind works that way. And I'm going to tell an interesting story. The very first talk I ever gave it a new thought center, and I don't even know what year somewhere in the mid-2000s. I called the talk beyond metaphysics. And I laid out this framework that came to me in a meditation with these four levels. And my friend came up to me afterward and said, Have you ever heard Michael Beckwith speak about these? They're almost identical. And that's the way consciousness works. So you know, I'm now friends with him. And we've talked about that and we pick up in consciousness, that which is something that exists and we can talk more about that but these four more levels, martyr consciousness, magical thinking consciousness, metaphysical consciousness and mystical consciousness. And very simply said, martyr consciousness is the world's happening to me thing. Yeah. And to me. And then this, this magical thinking is I make things happen, I'm the creator. And that's where a lot of the visualization, we're focusing on the mind, how to change the mind. Metaphysical is things happen through me, this is where we hear people say, I'm a channel for spirit. You hear the term through me, it's more emotion focused, you know, we might say, Spirit lives in my heart. And then the mystical level is things happen as me and we realize there's no separation, that we are actually source energy, that we are not different than any human on the planet. And when we're living in that vibration, we're no longer buying into the paradigm of good and bad and right and wrong s&m And all the divisiveness that seems to be so seductive in our culture right now.
Greg Voisen
Yeah, you know, I remember going to Palm Springs and seeing I want I forget his first name Hawking, and its power versus force, right, as that was the book, I think, if I remember correct, but we've talked about the vibratory level that the average person, and he put frequencies and said, you know, was somewhere in that range of two to 500, but that Jesus Christ, and people like the Dalai Lama, and whatever they're at, like 1000, plus, or 2000, or whatever it was. So the levels, it really gave you a perspective about how much focus work it takes to get to those levels of consciousness, you know, those beings, there's all kinds of mystics that have come to this planet, to help the world, you're another one of them, right. And when I say that kind of, you know, you say mystics, we're all mystics in one way or another, right? Helping, teaching serving. You know, I do it through this podcast, you do it through your videos, through your sermons, through your coaching through your training. But speak with us a little bit about that. Because when Hawking talked about the vibration, and you talk about the vibration, and somebody listening right now is going well, you know, I may be at that martyr level, and I want to go to that mystic level, right? What is it that they can do to start on the path?
TJ Woodward
Well, I think it's important, and maybe this is the most important point to today's show, it's already within you, this isn't something that we're attaining outward. In other words, we're not trying to reach some sort of destination, or this upward movement of I need to raise my vibration. The deeper recognition is, as you said, we're all mystics, and that may sound very esoteric, all it means is we came into this world deeply connected with Source energy, you know, we're a particle of this source energy and then we get all this programming to believe all the conditions of the world the love, why do
Greg Voisen
we Why do we T J, why do we block it? Well, how does it get blocked? I mean, you know, look, it's one thing to be at utter peace, and know that you're walking in the will of God, let's call it that, and know that you are vibrating at another level. And it's another thing to be attacked by the let's call it the darkness of the world. I'm not gonna say devil, I'm just gonna say darkness. But, you know, there is a lot of things that lured people in to doing things they wouldn't normally do. Out of and we can get talking about ego in a minute, but the reality is, how would you ask people to tap into this more frequently? Or how can they?
TJ Woodward
Well, I think it's the process, I think it's for me, it's a twofold process. It's dedicated time in this silence, really getting in touch with cultivating, cultivating a relationship with the essential self, be feeling that frequency, kind of all the things that we've talked about. And then the second piece of it, we also already talked about net is what needs to be unlearned. Right? What are those programs we were taught based on our age, our race, our socio economic status, our sexual orientation, all the things that were taught from the world. So it's the awareness of who and what we truly are spending dedicated time in a spiritual practice reconnecting, and that's only the mind because we're never disconnected from it. And then it's also looking at all those beliefs, all those ideas, unplugging From the world tapping into our true essence, and from there, then we can witness or observe what's happening in the world without being pulled. In other words, the greatest freedom we can ever experience is freedom from the reactive impulse.
Greg Voisen
Yeah, and it's about taking off the veil. Now, it we, we all put on protective veils, a lot of times, you know, being vulnerable is what it requires. Being bear, it's kind of to bear witness. And you mentioned there's five keys and making peace with the past. And I think this is a really important one that actually, people use it as an excuse. You know, my parents did it to me, my ex-wife did it to me, you know, that's kind of the martyr one you were talking about. But they're not taking responsibility for their own being in life. In other words, who they've become, they're saying, I'm gonna go blame somebody that government did it, this person took my money, whatever. What are the five keys to unlock the power of step one, and why is important to the practice the keys?
TJ Woodward
Well, I'm going to, I'm going to have a true confession with you right now. And I'm going to say I have the book in front of me, and I want to make sure I get the steps, right, it's okay. In each of the steps, what I've done is I've given them five keys. And the reason that I do this is, if someone who's listening or watching right now is like me, I want to have like, sort of some steps in my mind. So I'm gonna read the keys, and then we can good happen to them. So the first key is practicing mindfulness and gratitude, and I put them together for a reason, embracing self-love, living beyond your stories, feeling your feelings, and living in the question. So we talked about dedicated time in the silence, we talked about what it means to practice meditation or mindfulness. But there's also a frequency of gratitude. And I think one of the keys to gratitude is we often hear what am I grateful for? And I'm exploring a different possibility here. And that is, what if gratitude is actually a frequency that doesn't need to be attached to something? In other words, can I be the energy or the frequency of gratitude. And when I'm in that frequency of gratitude, I can look at my past through a very different lens. And we talked about things happen to me, and how many of us live in this idea of forgiveness, right? Because, you know, the five steps to embracing the life of your dreams is not forgiveness. First of all, foofy is not a great acronym, but I call it making peace with the past because I think forgiveness is a very loaded word, because it's deeply entrenched in good and bad and right and wrong. And we can dive in into any of these five keys. But I think that's an important first one to really talk about that gratitude piece.
Greg Voisen
Well, you know, hey, look, the five pieces, let me just say this. What would you say about living as someone with a ton of self-love, and compassion, compassion for oneself, because the outside world as we take it in, has a tendency to want to beat us up for what we're not. And we can always say, we're not enough. And if you really look at many of the problems that exist in our own being, it's from us trying to do something to prove something for someone else. Not always for yourself. Yeah, I mean, I think that's probably the first biggest one to address because subconsciously, we go through much of our life doing that, you know, I know I had a little Jewish mother and she used to say, Well, what did you do today? It was never Who were you today? It was what did you do today? It wasn't about my being it was about my doing. And I think many of us are caught in the doing cycle which is about doing something not always for ourself, but most of the time for somebody else so we can look good and someone else's eyes address that
TJ Woodward
that's right well conscious being leads to conscious doing and had been taught it's the opposite you know, Do we become worse right? I like that. It's like doo doo but anyway, exactly. Self-Love is an interesting topic found
Greg Voisen
your new book, do
TJ Woodward
the three steps to do exactly when we are in that doing and it does tie into self-love because I think a lot of times when people hear the term self-love, we naturally go to I must love everything that I've ever done. And that's not what we're talking about. Here. We're talking about being the frequency of love. It's not Loving, very similar to gratitude. It's not that I'm loving all parts of me, although it is that, but really, it's about that frequency of love. And when I realized, if I look at a small baby, I'm not going to say that person, that little person's unlovable. That person literally is love, right, their brains haven't even developed to have all these stories about who they are. They're just in this essence, right. And so self-love really is about getting in touch with that and realizing that love is who and what we are. The great poet Rumi says, We're not here to seek for love, but only look at the barriers we've put, I think he might have said on top of that, or to block that. And that really is a very different way. So it's not only loving ourselves, but it's realizing that love is who and what we are. And that's really different way of living in the world.
Greg Voisen
I totally agree with you. And I want to go back to this element, because in many practices, it comes back to mindfulness meditation, silence, solitude, whatever it might be, and you consider meditation as important tool in all the five steps of conscious creation. Talk about if you would, like you did in the video, for all my listeners, go to his YouTube channel, go down to the one on conscious creation, the first video, and let's speak about the monkey mind a minute, and how when we go to sit in meditation, how we can be distracted. But in your case, just love the distractions. Love what's been coming through you. Most people, as you said in the video was when I got to shun that, because my mind's got to get to total emptiness. I'm not certain that anybody's mind other than maybe someone who's in a cave in India gets to total empty emptiness, not in the world in which we live. I just want to be a realist here. And if I'm wrong, and all my listeners, you can write me and say, hey, have you ever been to that? When you get to that point of nirvana? Where you're completely empty? And you're one with all? That doesn't always happen every day? Yeah, and
TJ Woodward
I, you know, many of us have had those peak experiences. And you know, in my experience, they come and they go, yeah, what we're really speaking to here is, how many times have you heard someone say, Oh, I can't meditate. And if we explore why they're saying that they'll say something like, Well, I can't get my mind to be quiet. So I would say to them, what if meditation, the goal of meditation, or the intention isn't to quiet the mind, it's to observe it. Now, that sounds maybe like semantics, but it's a fundamentally different way of relating to the mind. And because when I was learning, and I'm using air quotes, if someone's listening, just know, I'm using air quotes, when I was learning to meditate, I was like, I was very much in a pretty violent relationship with my mind, stop thinking stop, you know, inner chatter, Be quiet, be quiet, shut up, shut up. And I realized at one point, that I could actually observe those thoughts, and there would be a lot of information there. So yes, sometimes a meditation is very blissful. Sometimes we tap into a place where it feels like our mind is empty. And I might judge that as a good meditation. And then I might sit down, and it's brutal, you know, five minutes, 10 minutes, 20 minutes of just so much inner criticism, or so much judgment of the world judge that is a bad or a negative meditation. What if that's not true? What if that observation of that is actually a really powerful place to be because we get to experience or see the mind for what it is. That to me is a very different way of meditating. It's
Greg Voisen
interesting, I you know, I have several meditation cushions to several means to and oftentimes, you know, I go to sit, and I notice myself twitching or want to move with foot or I can't get comfortable Ra. And I recognize it. When I'm uncomfortable like that. There's a message, right? And I And oftentimes, I'll truncate the meditation just because I'm so antsy, and I'm like, I'm never even going to get there. So I'm going to even try because you My mind is so filled with stuff that I have to do. We just talked about it. But if you can come in and I'm almost like it's prep, before the meditation, right? It's what are you doing that set yourself up for a good meditation? And I want to talk about you state that the most rewarding result from conscious creation processes Living in awakened life, can you share with the listeners that awakening living and living is in its simplest form and how to create it?
TJ Woodward
Yeah, in its simplest form, it's waking up to the truth of who and what we are, and waking up to the truth of who and what we are, is realizing that we're not those thoughts of limitation and lack, that we're not our ego itself, our personality itself that we are actually infinite beings. And that we can tap into this not only in our spiritual practice of meditation, or mindfulness, but actually in the world. I woke up one day, and I heard spiritual practice. And I always thought the intention of meditation was to have a wonderful meditation. And then I realized, it's really a practice for how we can be in the world. So an awakened life in its simplest form is knowing who and what we are. It's that conscious being rather than that doing that we talked about. And that can be a very, very simple thing, you know, and a wise person once said, it can take a lifetime, and it can happen in an instant.
Greg Voisen
Yeah, yeah. So well said and I, and I would say that is what people need to awaken to, is that this process doesn't have to take you years and years. And when I say this process, I'm just going to call it the awakening process that caught the evolution of consciousness, like Hawking was talking about, I'm not saying you're ever going to be a Dalai Lama or you're ever going to be a mother Teresa, are you ever going to be anybody like that? It doesn't matter. What matters is how you outwardly express yourself to the world. And how the world perceives you as a source of light, a source of love, a source of consciousness, a source of someone who gives and is interested in giving back. And with that in mind, I know, you provide a lot of wisdom in this book. And by ending each step, and you give what helpful keys, if you were to choose three keys, from any step in the book? What would you leave the audience with? And what would you like to, to lend them to embracing in their life so that they can fulfill their dreams, right? Everybody out there has dreams. And they're attempting to manifest those dreams and you say dreams, okay? It's my vision. It's my dream. It's, it's however you want to reference it. But I believe we're in to dream states weren't a dream state during the day awakened dream straight. And at night, we were in another dream state. But the reality is, we're constantly in a dream. Because, you know, if you look at quantum physics, and parallel worlds, this is all a current, we could get pretty deep here. I'm sure we're not we don't have time for that. But the reality is, is that, okay, I knock on this desk, you know, could I put my hand through the desk? Can I vibrate at a level where I could literally walk through the wall, I know for somebody, that sort of voice and you've gone off the big deep end here, but speak with our listeners, because you're really trying to embrace this concept of realizing this isn't being done to you. It's being given to you? Yes.
TJ Woodward
Well, and that's, you know, the entire premise of the book is that we're holding the projector. That's why I use the metaphor movie, and that we're literally projecting onto a blank screen. And so it's not so much what's happening in the world. It's how we're perceiving what's happening. And as you said, quantum mechanics is now showing us that the observer has a profound effect, simply said, I see, I will see what I expect to see. So if I say the world is brutal, and hostile, I walk out into the world, and I will see it everywhere. And I can actually argue that it's true, because look, there it is, that's horrible. I can say the world is kind and loving, and I can find evidence to support that everywhere too. Neither one is any more true than the other. It's really what we focus on. And that's what grows. And so if I think about a couple of keys that come to mind, I don't know if I have three, but I definitely have two that came to mind. One is living beyond our stories and living in the question. And I think I want to focus on living in the question because, you know, our mind we've been programmed to believe that this is about finding answers. What's the answer? What's the fact what's the truth, our whole educational system? What we call intelligence is actually simply memorization. Right? Living in the question allows us to expand our awareness rather than keeping us stuck. So you ask an open ended question. and simply meaning that it can be answered with yes or no, that's empowering and allows us to start to expand our awareness because a great teacher, once you she used to use the analogy of like space, and you look at all the different stars, and she said, consciousness is like a circle that you put where you can only see eight or nine stars, when you expand, you start to see more, they were always there. But we couldn't see them because of the barrier we put on it. So living in the question allows us to expand rather than contract judgment restricts. Curiosity expands very simple. So some of the questions I use are, how does it get even better than this? You know, you go through a difficult day and say, how does it get even better than this? Or you have something that's really wonderful. And you ask that question, what else is possible? is a great question, who have I come here to be is a great question, we start to live in these questions, and we start to see our consciousness expand, not so that we can create or manifest but that we can become aware of that which we couldn't see before because of our lens.
Greg Voisen
You know, it, you definitely have hit on some main important points. And I would say the last one that you just said, is living in the question versus always trying to find the answer. You know, it can't be a yes or no, it isn't black or white. It's something to contemplate, and an open ended question like that allows you this wonderment to explore, you know, and it doesn't really matter if you find the answer. The answer, it isn't about the answer. It's about living, the embodiment of what it is that you'd like to express to the world. And I think you are a conscious creation of that. Mr. TJ Woodward, thank you for being on inside personal growth, and sharing some of your insights it was it was really quite enlightening. And you can see the wisdom that resides within you. And for my listeners, go up to today's YouTube channel, I think all you have to do is cm, because one of the things you know, so you're gonna watch this on video, many of you are going to listen to this iTunes or Spotify, you're going to listen. But once you see the embodiment of who TJ Woodward is and what he really wants to bring to the world, you really get it by just watching a couple of his videos. So take the time to go to YouTube. Check it out. Go get the book. We're gonna have a link to the books on Amazon. And TJ blessings to my friend. It's been a pleasure having him on inside personal growth. Any final thoughts?
TJ Woodward
My final thoughts are Thank you. Gratitude. I always like to close out with gratitude grateful for the amazing work you're doing for this show all these years bringing consciousness to the world and to someone who's watching or listening. Now, very simply, if no one's told you today, you are a whole imperfect infinite being.
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Inside Personal Growth with Greg Voisen · Podcast 999: Gnar Country: Growing Old, Staying Rad with Steven KotlerReturning for this podcast is New York Times bestselling author, award-winning journalist, and the Executive Director of the Flow Research Collective, Steven Kotler. I am so happy and honored to have him back here and discuss his new book entitled Gnar Country: Growing Old, Staying Rad, among other things.
Steven is one of the world’s leading experts on human performance. He is the author of 11 bestsellers (out of fourteen books), including The Art of Impossible, The Future is Faster Than You Think, Stealing Fire, and others. His works have been translated into over 50 languages, and has appeared in over 100 publications including the New York Times Magazine and the Harvard Business Review.
Steven’s new book, just released last February 28, entitled Gnar Country: Growing Old, Staying Rad, is the chronicle of his experience pushing his own aging body past preconceived limits. It’s a book about goals and grit and progression. Moreover, it is about growing old and staying rad and an antidote for weariness that is inspiring, practical, and, often hilarious.
If you’re interested and want to know more about Steven, please click here to visit his website. You may also click here to visit the book website.
I hope you enjoy my engaging interview with Steven Kotler. Happy listening!
You may also refer to the transcripts below for the full transciption (not edited) of the interview.
Interview Transcipt -Not EditedEmailDownloadNew TabGreg Voisen
Hey, well, welcome back to Inside Personal Growth. This is Greg Voisen. And joining me on the other end of the line, he probably doesn't need much introduction. He's been on the show many times, but it's Steven Kotler joining us from you're in North Lake Tahoe, right?
Steven Kotler
Actually in the East.
Greg Voisen
east. Yes, sir. Northeast, Northeast. Okay. Well, and he said today as we were talking it's actually raining out not snowing. They were expecting snow snowing at the higher elevations. So for all of you, who are Southern California listeners, and go up to Tahoe that is where he is. We're going to be talking about his new book called NAR country. Growing old staying rad. I don't know I always wonder what is the new old anymore. I mean, I'm going to be 69 in July now feel 69 So you got to have some statistics on that you're 53 I'm sure you don't feel 53. So, but let me let the listeners know a little bit about you. For those who haven't seen you before on my podcast, or don't know who you are. He's a New York Times bestselling author, award winning journalist and one of the world's leading experts in high performance. He's the author of eight bestsellers including stealing fire the rise of Superman Tomorrowland, bold abundance, west of Jesus, a small fury prayer and the angles quickest for flight and his writing has been translated in 40 languages and peering over 100 publications including the New York Times and Atlantic Monthly Wall Street Journal, Forbes, wired and time. Steve's also the co-founder of creating equilibrium, a conference concert innovation accelerator focusing on solving critical environmental challenges long side his wife, joy, Nicholson, Steve's a co-founder and as your ranch still going at the Rancho chinchilla. Okay, so it's a hospice care for Special Needs dogs. And it's a sanctuary in the mountains of northern New Mexico. And I got to commend him on that, because I'm a big dog lover. I have two chihuahuas, myself. And I rescued both of them. He's got a BA from the University of Wisconsin Madison, of which, just Steven for your edification, I was just there, seeing Richie Davidson, who's done all the work with the Dalai Lama. And most people don't connect Madison, Wisconsin, with work in meditation, mindfulness, compassion, and healing. But it's kind of the biggest center for that. John Hopkins University, whatever possibly found hurling himself down mountains at high speeds, may be now riding in ski parks, which is not about hurling yourself down the mountains at high speeds. So, Stephen, you chronicle this book, it was great, was almost like a journal at the began. I remember in the webinar you did last Friday, you said, you know, this is one of the hardest books you wrote. While from the outside, it maybe doesn't look like it maybe, you know, the rise of Superman, to me seems like it had a lot more research in it. And whatever. This had a lot more of you in it, you became the experiment of our country book, at your age 53. And you wanted to master a park skiing, you state that if you want to rock until you drop, we must train the brain that actually came from last Friday's little workshop that you did. What does the research tell us about sustaining peak performance much later in life than we really think possible?
Steven Kotler
It's a good place to start. So you want to begin with the older idea, the traditional idea about aging, which most of us grew up with, believe or still partially believe, and it's what I like to call the long slow route theory. It's the idea that all of our mental skills, all our physical skills, they decline over time, and there's nothing we can really do to stop the slide. And it turns out that true and false and both at the same time, all of our mental and physical skills do decline over time, but it turns out, none of it's inevitable. Every skill you can think of, is a use it or lose it skill. So if you never stop training these skills, you get to hang on to them, even advanced them far later in life than anybody thought possible.
Greg Voisen
Yeah, and it is something that for anybody, we're gonna get into it. You know, kind of the neural pathways of the brain are a big element to this when they look at Alzheimer's. Research now they're finding so many different ways to help somebody kind of retard the process. And you mentioned that if we want to attain peak performance in any age, we must deal with personal forgiveness and traumas of the past. Now, that's kind of an interesting one, because that's really more of a whole psychological element. Why is this such an important element and reaching and reaching peak performance, because most of the listeners out there, Steven, we're not going to correlate me giving forgiveness to whether or not I'm going to be a peak performer.
Steven Kotler
It's, um, anywhere you go inside the field of peak performance aging, you find really astounding, like sort of shocking evidence of the mind body connection at work. And this is one of those places. So this is really neat. And maybe a little troubling, but really neat. So as we have to our 50s, there are profound changes in the brain. Some of this is genetics, that certain genes only activate with experience. Some of this is that the brain, you know, late 40s, early 50s, it starts to recruit underutilized regions. And in our 50s, the two halves of the brain start working together like never before most of our life, they're not quite in opposition, but they're a little bit in opposition. And they really started to come together in our 50s. And this process peaks in our 80s. And as a result, we gain access to whole new levels of intelligence, wisdom, empathy, and creativity, we can go much deeper into that topic in a minute if you want. But these are real, cognitive superpowers. But, but like a lot of things in psychology, this is adult development, this is a natural thing that happens in the field of adult development. But adult development is not automatic. So childhood development is kind of automatic kid is going to go through the terrible twos, when they're too you know, in that window span, it happens automatically. adult development, we have to pass through gateways there are moderators is, which is a psychological word for if then conditions. So there are certain things you need to accomplish, at certain at every decade, basically, to unlock the superpowers, which is why I always say, peak performance, aging starts young. And some of the reasons that start young are the psychological reasons we're talking about. So if you want to thrive in our later years, and you want access to the superpowers that I talked about, you have to fight age 30-ish solve the crisis of identity, got to know who you are in the world, right? What are your values? What are your strengths? What do you stand for? What are your goals? What are your passions? What's your purpose, some you don't have to have it locked down, because obviously, that's an evolving, changing growing thing. But you got to you got to have enough, because by 40, you have to solve what economists call match fit, you need a tight alignment between your vocation, and your identity, or your avocation. And how you spend your time has to be aligned with passion, purpose has to give you regular access to flow. It's got to draw on your strengths. It's got to align with your values. Otherwise, you have problems and then at 50, you have to forgive yourself, you have to forgive those who have done you harm. And this seems weird, right? Like, why would why would that matter for peak performance aging, like you can see from a psychological perspective, oh, I don't want to grow into a bitter old man or better all the woman right. Okay, that makes some sense. But like, why does it matter? Elsewhere? Some of it has to do with, we get access to new levels of creativity, intelligence, some of the intelligence that comes on, for example, is multi perspectival thinking, we learn to see things from other people's perspectives, but we can't forgive ourselves. We can't forgive other people that doesn't start to come online. Empathy is blocked if we can't forgive ourselves and forgive other people. So that whole superpower that really deepens in our 50s 60s and 70s. And really helps us do incredible things goes away and wisdom is blocked. So you have to it's this weird developmental challenge. But most interesting thing is, let's tie it all the way back. You started with my alma mater, go Badgers, Wisconsin, work of Richard Davidson. Richard's work has been on predominantly compassion, meditation, loving kindness.
Greg Voisen
Exactly. We're working on best
Steven Kotler
tool in the world. This is how you do this. How do you forgive yourself? How do you forgive others? You can that I did some funky things in the book. And there's the big NARS style quest to like solve some of the big stuff. But on a day to day basis, loving kindness, meditation, truly matters. And even better, like he's got all the benefits. We could go. We could spend the next hour on the benefits of loving kindness meditation, but it's got distinct amps. Aging properties. Yes, the craziest one. So this is work that Barbara Fredrickson did in the University of North Carolina, she was looking at telomere attrition, telomeres are the caps on chromosomes, yes, you duplicate, they get shorter than they stop working. This is one of the reasons we age, right. And it turns out, loving kindness meditation actually enhances our telomeres and the they decline it at a slower rate. They tested loving kindness meditation against focus, meditation and a positive a bunch of different systems. And it turns out, not only does loving kindness meditation help us get through some of the gateways of adult development. It also helps us fight aging at a really like core biological level. So that's kind of neat, too.
Greg Voisen
We know what's really neat about you, I remember first meeting you at La at a conference, and then we went and had dinner together. And I talked with you about meditation way back then this goes, I think it was whatever that conference was. And you now are a super advocate of meditation back then you had your concerns, you weren't quite there yet. Because I remember having a distinct conversation with you at dinner, when I brought it up. And I didn't get pushback, but I also didn't get that you were totally engaged with it. But so see, now you have Well,
Steven Kotler
Greg, you have to I've been meditating. I mean, on a on not daily dailies overstating it, but on a regular basis for how long did since the early 90s. Okay, I'll actually probably 1987 when I dropped out of college and moved to Santa Fe is when I really started meditating on a regular basis, and who got you into it. I got myself into it through just interest in philosophy and consciousness. And, you know, III, both Eastern and Western approaches and things like that I wasn't closed off, what I think is that meditation on its own, for most of us is weak sauce. I think meditation is a great complement to all bunch of stuff. I am a big believer, there's data going back to the early 1980s. And work done by Michael Posner up in Oregon, showing that focus meditation and has access to flow. So I've always been a proponent of using I think flow is equally powerful, if not more powerful tool. But meditation used in concert with flow and like I wrote and in stealing fire, different altered state altered states are tools and ways of altering our consciousness tools. And they their best can bind, you know what I mean? You can use them together. That's the it's combinatorial therapies that are the most interesting to me. And I've always been, and this work is starting to really get done. Right. This is, for example, what we were just talking about is an example of comparative, you know, altered states of consciousness research uncovered. So what has happened is, meditation has gotten firm enough that I'm really calm, I'm much more comfortable talking about it as a tool because I the science has caught up. And all of the I didn't like the What the I wanted to put flow research on a fat on a strong neurobiological footing, that's always their mission one. And when the New Age was controlling the dialogue on meditation, I wanted nothing to do with it. Because it's not like that's not a dialogue. There's a very closed minded approach to meditation as far as I'm concerned. And I want something that bridges the gap between science and spirituality, which is what Richie Davidson what my mentor Andy Newberg, what like a lot of the pioneers in my field, did they went into the spiritual community, they found great people, Dalai Lama, young, a Mingo Rinpoche, a couple others, and they say, yeah, what are you experiencing? What, you know what this is what our research can tell us. And they started building those bridges. So I love that love having conversations. I didn't like it back then. Because I felt the spiritual community was so closed minded towards the science community. It wasn't it didn't strike into the science community, they were closed minded to the spiritual community in like the 80s. But around like, around the time, you and I had that conversation, the bias had switched, and it was in the spiritual community. And I felt that very unhelpful for what I was trying to do. Right. You
Greg Voisen
know, Richie Davidson has taken it a long way. He's, I think he's written more papers for NIH than anybody about the neuroscience of this and what it actually does. And you know, I spent the full day with him and nine other people and I was just amazed with the with the amount of research I mean, if you want to look at science, he is the de facto in Mayas. Demacian as far as science regarding meditation and the benefits of meditation, but in particularly, because the Dalai Lama told him 30 years ago, why are you working on depression? And why don't you switch and go to compassion? And that was the biggest flip in his life, right was to study the effects of compassion.
Steven Kotler
I mean, I, you know, I'm inside, there are a ton of people, Richie was great. And Dan Goleman. And I think they paved the way, but there's a lot of unsung hero, I'm sure. Will it be Britain and brown? Was there really early or at Brown? Was there really early same time, there are a lot of other people who sort of were working on this because it was. And the reason I'm mentioning this, it's not that Richard didn't work incredibly hard. It's that this was a huge fight. Like this was the 90s for hundreds of people, myself included, right? How do we take these altered states of consciousness, these things that science has spent 100 years saying are not real? How do we how do we validate them? Or that they're real? Nobody remembers us anymore. But so a lot of on peak performance, aging, one of the things that's really important is a robust social life. And when you look under the hood of what is that mean? There's categories that are belonging. So we find people with strong religious affiliations, do better. And people with real, like robust social connections and active sources, all that, yeah. And you have to sort of look at that belonging, and there were the religious connections and say, Well, what is this, and nobody remembers this, but we had to spend the 90s, proving that like, if you went to church, or you had a regular meditation practice, or any, this was good for you, and then we started to decode it and figure out, okay, the altruistic activity that you get from religious belonging, plus the social connections, plus the gratitude, regular gratitude practices are the things that make that special. And we understand the neurobiology of all of that now, but it has to start with like, hey, this stuff is good for you. Right? Like,
Greg Voisen
yeah, I don't know if anyone's done any studies, you know, but it came about a meditation through Joel and Michelle Levy, I think first, and then I ended up getting involved with self-realization fellowship. And here's the point, I'm going to make real quick the next question, because it's a real important one is, I don't find a lot of camaraderie and SRF, what I do find is the energy that's being held, to get into some very deep meditations that I may not be able to get into on my own, because I actually like the energy that the temple holds, or the meditation grounds hold. But what I will say is, you're not find a lot of people glad handling afterwards saying, Hey, let's go do coffee, let's go do this, or let's go do that. It isn't that kind of place. But look, you are the foam foremost thought leader on flow, the flow Reese research initiative that you're working on and have been working on. Yeah, sorry, collective, you've been working on forever. And I'm going to direct our listeners to that as well. While I believe the listeners might know what flow is, I think coming from you, it'd be nice to have a definition as we speak about flow and aging, and how they go hand in hand. You know, it's one thing to talk about flow and say, hey, look, I'm trying to get into flow state, I want to have flow, I want to, you know, I'm gonna do an A micro dose, something to get into flow. And whatever it might be. My point is, is how do the two go hand in hand with aging?
Steven Kotler
Yeah, so this is really, this is really super interesting. But let's start with a definition, flow is scientifically, right. It's defined as an optimal state of consciousness, we feel our best and we perform our best and more specifically, it's any of those moments of rapt attention. total absorption is so focused, I want you to do it on the task at hand rug, everything else just starts to disappear, right? Since the self, not just as the voice in your head, get really quiet. Time passes. Strangely, usually, you just get so sucked into what you're doing that like five hours go by and what feels like five minutes and throughout all aspects of performance, both mental and physical, go through the roof. So there's a huge amplification in about a dozen different mental and physical skills, maybe more that happened and flow is how humans do peak performance. It's a built in function. anybody listening can get into flow, right? It's kind of baked into all you most mammals can get into flow actually, but it turns out for heavily different reasons, flow is deeply tied to adult development and successful aging. In fact, the godfather of psychology magic sent me hi spent, I would almost be willing to say the bulk of his career literally working on this issue on flow as one of the major drivers of adult development. Quick version of this is flows It's F triggers preconditions that lead to more flow. And a short version of one of them is that when we're using our skills to the utmost, right when we're pushing on our skills, and we're stretching beyond our normal capabilities, that drives us into flow as a result, and flow that amplifies performance, so we're trying to onboard new skills are pushing really hard. And then flow amplifies our performance we do on board those skills spell on the other side of a flow state work more complex, one more adaptable, we're more capable. And for the exact same reason that loving kindness meditation works on forgiveness. So flow works on the same part of the brain, the temporal parietal junction. And as a result of being in flow, we become more empathetic and we become wiser. So flow is an engine of how we grow up. It is also incredibly, incredibly, incredibly neuro protective against cognitive decline, and physically protective against general decline. Let me go into greater detail here. So changes in the brain happened as we move into flow. First thing that happens is stress hormones get pushed out of our system, there are nine known causes of aging, all of them linked to stress and inflammation. That's the commonality among all of them. So anytime, you can push stress hormones out of your system, that's essentially an anti-aging technology. Additionally, when you experience incredibly powerful positive emotions, and at the top of the list, our favorite thing lists always at the top. But if you look inside that like why is flow always at the top, it's two elements in flow that really drive that one, we get a sense of control and flow, oh, I can control things, I can't normally control my sentences or doing great things, or that basketball is just falling through the hoop again, and again and again. And we get the sense of mastery, right? We're growing, we're stretching, when we encounter really positive emotions, besides the like broad and Bill Barbara Fredrickson, like we get more resilient, we get all that all those benefits. But on top of that, at a neuroimmunological level, those feelings produce amplify the production of T cells, which are key fight disease and natural killer cells, which targets sick cells and tumors and other diseases of aging. So flow at sort of every level is an anti-aging medicine. And finally, the neuro chemicals that show up and underpin the flow experience, are huge immune system boosters. So you're resetting the nervous system, you're boosting the immune system, and you're boosting very specific properties in the immune system that have anti-aging benefits, and you are becoming more complex, more adaptable. And finally, most importantly, perhaps, flow gives us both expertise, learning and wisdom. So the difference, think of expertise, as you know, this is the intellectual side of learning, or the skill side of learning and wisdom is emotional intelligence. But the point is this, you said at the beginning of the program, that there are ways to fight off Alzheimer's, one of the most important is lifelong learning. And the reason this matters so much is Alzheimer's, dementia, cognitive decline, they target the prefrontal cortex. So if you want to protect the prefrontal cortex, what you need is neurogenesis, the birth of new neurons, and synaptic plasticity, the creation of new neural networks. And to really backup the prefrontal cortex, you want redundancy in those neural networks. That's exactly what you get from expertise and wisdom. They create these used of use networks and prefrontal cortex, which is why you like you can lifelong learning is the most important way to stave off cognitive decline, dementia, Alzheimer's. In fact, you know, the, it's interesting, a lot of this work came out of studies where they would find they were autopsy and brains of people who had no signs of dementia or Alzheimer's. And they get they find that autopsy the brands that they find tangles and plaques in the brains were a mess, they've had dementia, they had Alzheimer's, if they showed none of the symptoms. So what the hell was going on. And the commonality was wisdom and expertise. And here's another place that peak performance starts young. The more of these neural networks you build up, the more things you learn, the more skills you learn more abilities you have over time, more times you cement these things into place with flow, the better off you're going to be. Now, the final thing I have to add in it's not flow related, but I need to say this is there's a bunch of cool ways to train the parts of your brain that you don't can't protect at this point. Adam Ghazali has done really cool work at neuro scape on all the different video games that sort of can target different aspects of cognitive decline that maybe didn't get cemented by expertise and wisdom. So we're getting very good at sort of like the whole picture, which is really cool flows a big part of it, but there's other things going on and I it's worth pointing that out, too.
Greg Voisen
We know as you're speaking I'm reflecting, and I'm reflecting on resistance and resilience, you know, the more you let go, because of this optimal state, whether you get it through attaining flow or meditation, which is an optimal way to get to these states, you resume, you reduce resistance to what comes at you, and you build resist resilience. And I'm just curious, because it was kind of like, it was just like, those two words are floating in my brain as you were talking, and I'm gonna like, hey, to me, that's it. And you know, you're, you speak with the listeners, if you would, about what, you know, I've kind of been working with lately is this peripheral vision activities, the parasympathetic nervous system, and the importance it is in overcoming fear. Because fear, as you know, that's going to release cortisol. Cortisol is bad. Fear is what you kind of want to stay away from, I'm going to say I want to hear what you say. I know in certain cases, fear protects us. But especially when it came to park skiing, snowboarding, etc. Speak with us about the peripheral vision, that connection, overcoming fear, and how this worked for you and all the other participants in park schemes.
Steven Kotler
So at the heart of it, so the background is not only do we have all these user loses skills, right, that we keep trying to get to hang on to them. There's this old this traditional idea. Old Dogs can't learn new tricks, right? And we know yet we know the importance of lifelong learning to performance aging, we just talked about it right. Yeah. And I was looking at a bunch of stuff and flow science in network neuroscience, neural dynamics, embodied cognition, a couple other places. And if these things are true on paper, I should be able to onboard really difficult new motor skills, even in my 50s, right, that was the three that was what I decided to test. But part of what I was doing was I was going one inch at a time it was start with an established something you could do 100% time was zero fear, no conscious interference and build on it one inch at a time in a creative, playful manner. Right. And that was the whole there's, we can talk about all the reasons why, but that was at the heart of it. But fear creates tremendous amounts of problems with performance. Right? It. First of all, it doesn't let you know where that one inch at a time is. Right? It secures it. It's harder to figure out what's where you're going. It hampers performance, too much fear can block the blocks power, our ability to access 100% of our strength. It blocks fast twitch muscle response. It makes us less creative, more conservative, more blocks learning, there's a big detriment. So you always have to be monitored in any kind of sort of difficult challenge for your levels matter, right? You want daily practices dramatic to monitor your nervous system gratitude, practice mindfulness practice, exercise being the three best. But then what do you do in situations where you're redlined? Right? How do you so you need some tools for that most of us know enough to do deep breathing, and they know, if you want to activate your parasympathetic nervous system, it's very useful to make your exhales double what your inhale czar. And if your exhales are longer than seven seconds bonus, because at about seven seconds, your brain goes, oh, shit look long exhales you must be calm. We don't have to produce so many stress hormones and fear hormones and fear chemicals, etc.
Greg Voisen
Can I ask you a question in the middle of this? Sorry to interrupt, but I mean, I know a lot of people out there are. And this is a big field now heart rate variability, right? It's like, okay, I want peak performance. I want to look at my heart rate variability, is this a push day? Is this a maintained day is this so I get that, you know, this science may not be perfect, but it's been around for a long time.
Steven Kotler
And now there's good stuff with there's good stuff with HRV. And I think HRV is very useful. For example, for overtraining and for recovery, I believe that an over reliance on measurements and metrics ends up hindering as much as it helps. And I think it's better to be able to sort of get internal signals of overtraining those things, but if you're trying to learn how to steer your sleep, your training, I think HRV is a really good tool. There's all kinds of really interesting work on HRV and longevity So there's direct correlations to high heart rate variability, and longevity, and health. So there's a lot of benefit there, not what we're talking about here at all, no heart rate variability is not in the moment thing. In fact, every single heart rate variability app out there anyway, you can track it with the exception of first beat, and they have proprietary software. So you have to actually be working with them. And it's a big machine that you're wearing. Nobody can track heart rate variability in acute situations. So I was used, the technique we're talking about with peripheral vision is how do you know, ski something that's scary, right? Do something that scares you heart rate variability, it'll tell you whether or not you want to put yourself in that situation in the first place. But it's not going to help you in the moment. Breathing can help you in the moment, the other way to get that same parasympathetic response even quicker. And this is work that comes out of Andrew humans Lab at Stanford, he was going to first figure this out. If you look at the world through your corners, your eyes, your brain goes, Oh, shit, all his chill. I can relax, I don't have to produce those stress hormones. When we're super focused laser focus on what's directly in front of us. It's like fight or flight. That's very acute focused vision. So the opposite I got is parasympathetic reaction, focus, vigor triggers a sympathetic reaction. So I this was the experiment. In the middle of my ski season, I had a ski partner Ryan wicks. And we were running a lot of different experiments, but throughout his rise a slightly faster skier than I am. And we're similar size, similar levels of aggression. We skis like a couldn't figure it out what's going on? Why is he always a little faster than me? And I asked him about it. He said, you know, I don't know why. But I tried to keep my vision really far down the hill. And I know there's a very tight link in the body between we go where we look. So I already knew that in performance literature. So but when I was listening to him talk about where he was keeping his focus, it sounded like what I had had heard Andrew humor and talk about this peripheral vision ideas. And I put it together and I said, okay, let's see if this is the same thing. And if it's true, and I started applying scale, but keeping my vision farther down the hill and trying to widen it out, keep it as wide as possible. I found that a calm way down, it slowed everything down. And it actually was a really good in the moment is part of my adventure, you know, trying to learn to park ski. It means doing stuff that scares you on a daily basis. And you don't, in my experience, courage, always like having to take that step to fear always feels bad. Doesn't matter how many times you do it, it always feels bad that maybe there are people out there and get over that bad feeling. I've learned to like train it like I can, I can now look at it in certain Writing Situations and be like, Okay, I know what that is. I don't even have to feel it. But in athletic situations, I still feel it. And what
Greg Voisen
actually happens to you when you say you feel bad, like I know certain people biologically their systems produce chemicals and they end up getting a headache, they get a stomachache, they get you know, there's a lot of things that can happen. I'm just curious what happens to you well,
Steven Kotler
there's your I get stomach aches, I can get headaches, I get all of that, right. But in the actual if it's physical danger, or you know, big I get butterflies. When the danger signals for me, what I look for is spiraling thoughts. Because once my thoughts start to spiral, there you go. Fear is going to impact muscle performance. That's the thing that really like if my thoughts are spiraling if I'm spinning, if I can't get new thoughts in then I you know, there's a bunch of tools I want to reach for peripheral vision is one breathing is another curiosity is fantastic. Curiosity may be the very single best way to fight fear in the moment because your brain has a very hard time being anxious and curious at the same time. They're opposites, you're distracted. It's not even that you're distracted that they have the same that the same neural chemicals they're saying nor they're underpinned by the same neural chemicals. So this is this is not my work originally, this is work that came out of work with animals, but you have heard animals and they're scared. You can get them curious. You can put things into like their environment that they're curious about as your yard it will totally block anxiety. So this is like something Yeah, it's something that comes out of animal welfare. I think the very first time I heard about it was Temple Grandin is were you Yeah How's she worked with the cat version of it used it with we use it with dogs all the time and in hospice care work and the dog sanctuary also, I just started applying it more and more talk a lot about it in our were in our country as well about you know these tactics but you want to fears gonna block performance
Greg Voisen
I do like the idea that you put your vision or he did all the way down the ski slope, right. I even remember personally getting to the top of Spooner over in Tahoe. It's called Spooner, and I had to come down the other side of the mountain on the bicycle. And you know how steep the downgrade is. And then there's those greats. And when I took my vision and put it out in front of me, because you get moving very fast, and you realize that if you wiped out on your bicycle, you're pretty, it's going to be pretty bad, right? So that did calm me. Because those skills would always scare me and I throw the brakes on, right? It's like, okay, I'm gonna pull the brakes back and pull the brakes back and pull the brakes back. And I actually let go with the brakes. The time when you said, Put the vision down. It's absolutely right, because I wasn't looking at the asphalt I was
Steven Kotler
in versus the other side of this. So this is a truism. In action sports, you go where you look. So in mountain biking, right, you're trained to look 30 to 60 yards down the Tres, right in surfing, you cannot physically surf a tube. If you try to pull into a tube and do everything you need to do to serve a tube, your body can't move that fast. We steer our muscles with our eyes, we go where we look. And that's how we steer them. So with it to writing, the secret to writing a tube is you have to put your eyes on the end of it. In Park skiing, when you're sliding a rail, you have to keep your eyes at the very end of the rail, otherwise you come off.
Greg Voisen
Yeah, no. And, and I love that. Because even if my listeners just take this away and say, Look, I had some fears associated with this. And now I can overcome the fear by changing where my line of sight is, right? I mean it right? We
Steven Kotler
do the same thing in human development, we just call them goals. Right? Week, right? Like, you know, and we know humans have worked performed best with three tiers of goals and like, but like literally, the brain doesn't really differentiate between, I'm looking at a point and I have a goal. Because that's how the brain works. It's the same parts of the brain that every everything's working together. So this is sort of why these systems work so well, in performance. Goals work as well. There's a goal. And that's why they tell you to be able to visualize your goal and see all aspects of it. And we go where we look.
Greg Voisen
Yeah, it is really, really powerful. What you're saying. Now, you know, let me ask you a question. You know, you wrote in the book, you know, you're a skinny little kid, you're a klutz. Kids made fun of you, they picked on you, you lost a lot of fight, when you knew you needed to overcome the stigma from childhood. So what did you do to transmute the psychological barriers that were holding you from being the peak performance person that you wanted to become? Because there's 1000s of listeners who were in your shoes, go listening to this show today. And this is a really important point, because many of them are retarded, become pardon me, I mean, use the word retarded, but they are from becoming peak performers, because they're allowing that bullying that psychic psychological element that got in their way. And I know we talked a little bit about it before, but this is you personally.
Steven Kotler
So you gotta so first of all, there it's a three part Effort, Right? Four part effort, maybe. But yeah, I did not. A lot like a lot of people. I don't think there was anything unique about that experience is way too common. And the other thing I should say, up front, is the very best thing that ever happened to me was, it was scary at school, it was scary at home and having to deal with that and learn from that was the best thing ever. Like that. Like, cuz that's how you everything I am, in a sense was a reaction against that. So I don't write and it was a reaction against I wants to hurt calm. Do you say? Like when I discovered like who I was, and I realized I wasn't a very courageous person. I couldn't live with that. So I had to change it. Right. And that was sort of my experience. I wasn't a very courageous person. I was You know, bullied for a long time and scared for a long time. But it forced me to, you know, change and help me become who I am. So there's first, like, I wouldn't change anything because I like I like where I am now. And I don't get to be here without starting there. So like, Thank you, you know, first and foremost, that's a reframing technique. But I think,
Greg Voisen
Oh, I always think when we thank our parents, a lot of people think oh, I grew up in this horrible environment, whatever and look at what you learned from being you got
Steven Kotler
to be you. And first of all, you have to take back that locus of control if you're a victim. This happened to me I've outright you've given up performances play the possible because of the burn, you've just, like, totally destroyed your ability to happen. And yes, that's a be loving kindness meditation, right? Like, there's your here's your tool, right? So, but see, what do you do with the shit the loving kindness meditation can't touch? That was the question I brought into our country. And I had some lingering anger, over sort of, I had unfinished business inside of athletics. So I created an AR style quest for me, it was parks game, because I had unfinished business and skiing, and I love skiing. But we all have that unfinished business somewhere. And I could designed a quest that literally would it was a jock quest, like, I got vites with the jocks, like I turned myself into a jock, I create an incredibly difficult physical quest. And, you know, miles, I literally went out and created a quiz that would force me to walk a mile in their moccasins kind of thing. So I didn't know that it was gonna work, Greg, I just knew that adult development told me that forgiveness matters, you got to sit down and the shame, the embarrassment, and also that shame, that embarrassment that self-consciousness was going to block learning was going to block the creativity and tell it all this stuff that I needed. So designed a quest for a lot of different reasons. Peak Performance aging experiment, but also because it closed a loop, it helped me try to transmute a some unfinished business. And, um, you know, I had milestones for progress. And I had ways to get feedback and see if I was actually reaching these goals and was working, and whatnot. But like, don't think there was like, in the beginning, there was no method to my madness, right? There was just like, these are the facts. Yeah, I'm screwed. So let's create a crazy ass experiment that tries to fix this and see if it works. And then if it works a little bit, let's study the neurobiology of it and like, make it more rigorous. And, like, that was a lot of that stuff. And but, you know, a lot of it wasn't hard to piece it together. Also, back to Richard Davidson's work, a lot of that compassion, meditation science, went in these directions, right, and the emotional intelligence stuff to like, we had to learn why this is hard, holds us back, and all that stuff. And
Greg Voisen
so yeah, but it did work for you. It worked.
Steven Kotler
The funny, you know, it's you sort of see that by the end of the book, and the proof that it will really work so I, my entire life had been blocked from group flow, when I was skiing with other people, I get into it alone, or maybe with one other person. But I was so self-conscious, when there were a group of people around. And the proof is that now I can, like regularly drop into group low with a big group like that was, that was the signal that oh, you've really actually gotten over this. And you can, now you know you're our participant, not on the outside feeling bad, or any of those other insecure self-conscious, all that other stuff.
Greg Voisen
So that resentment and anger that you may have had pinned up inside of you about these other athletes, you basically came to peace with that during this experiment.
Steven Kotler
Well, the other thing, so the book is, you know, the book opens literally with the definition of punk rock. Right? And in what people have asked about that, why is that? What is that because one of the things that punk was, was a cultural reaction, trauma at powerlessness, right? And one of the things that the punk movement really taught us was turn anger, resentment, hostility, whatever you got, take that and turn it into creativity. That is the that's the path forward. So do something with that anger is great as an energy is just bad if you hang on to it, right? It's good. It's better than depression because there's energy there, right? But you got to do something with it. And I, um, over the years, has been anger is a very powerful emotion as a performance emotion, but you have to know how to work with it. So even in raw Is or in our country I used to you can, when you shout, right when you yell that produces testosterone. This is why in martial art tradition, certain ones, especially the Japanese ones, they keep up, right, they shout before attacking. And it's, it releases testosterone. So I run into vertigo, I'm afraid of heights, and I have inner ear problems because of Lyme disease, and you lose muscle control, and things start spinning. And that's a bad quality in a skier because I'm in wildly exposed terrain all the time. And I would fight vertigo, by shouting, I can roar, and it would bring testosterone into my system, and bring muscle control online and stop the spinning and I could get myself out of the dangerous situation. So there's lots of different ways to work with anger. One was these big NARS Dahlquist, but even in like, in moments, when you need courage, there's some neuro chemistry underneath courage, and there's a way that you can you can use a little bit of that to your benefit.
Greg Voisen
Yeah, it's that is fascinating, the fact that you could yell and release testosterone, and it would affect this problem you're having in your inner ear, because that's just like, that's, I had no idea there was a connection between that. But that's cool. And I remember a stain a statement, I'm gonna hopefully I'm gonna get this right. It's not going to be exact. But as you were speaking, again, this little thing pops in about something Mother Teresa said, they said, Well, will you march against something? They wanted her to march in a some March. And she says, No, the only kind of Marches I ever want to do are for something. And you know, that's the whole concept of compassion being for something, and you talking about this meditation, about how we can bring something positive into our life from this, versus when these bullies bullied you way back when and you carrying all this psychological garbage with you and using this experiment to overcome and I think it's awesome. Now. Look, you're 53? My listeners, oh, I'm going to be 69. How can we do the impossible, at 50 or above? I've actually thought this. I know, just myself, Steven, that my fears and apprehensions about going down big declines on my bicycle at 40 miles an hour, kind of like, whoa, maybe I don't want to do that that much anymore. You know, I want to, like I just said, Maybe I want to put the brakes on. And sometimes I don't a lot of times, I don't let it fly anymore. But there are times where I do want to. But the fear keeps me from doing it. How can I
Steven Kotler
conquer that. So peak performance aging in a sentence. And we can unpack it afterwards. But in a single sentence. If you want to rock to draw, right to go back to the metaphor you started with, right? Yeah. You want to engage in challenging social and creative activities that demand dynamic, deliberate play, and take place a novel outdoor environments, challenging social and creative activities. Creativity is another one of these moderators, if you want the superpowers of aging, creative thinking is based is what actually starts to unlock all the new things that we get in our 50s. So you, it's really important, challenging, for the other reasons about pushing on our skills, that's a flow trigger, right. So that's why that's their social activities. We could spend the next hour talking about the benefits of social connection, especially as we age, but we all know what that is. Dynamic is the word that literally means the five categories of functional fitness. So we need to try and strength, stamina, balance, agility, and dexterity over time. So that's what dynamic stands for deliberate play. We've heard about deliberate practice repetition with incremental advancement. It's good for learning. But it's not the best deliberate play, which is repetition without repetition, or repetition with like little improvisation, much better for learning much better for lifelong learning. So dynamic, deliberate play is just a system of incorporating a bunch of physical stuff with a robust learning platform in the novel outdoor environments, outdoor environments, lower stress levels, and they also novel outdoor environments, amplify access to flow. They also improve neurogenesis, the birth of new neurons and new neural networks. So that's it in a sentence.
Greg Voisen
That's, that's what people need to hear. Hey, I was listening to Huberman last night on a podcast on the way home from Anaheim and I want to get your opinion on this. And you know, here's I'm, like I said a little older. But he said like, upper body stuff, here. Rate, lower body stuff, legs, thighs, calves, muscles, doing leg doing lifts with
Steven Kotler
Andrew, Andrew Ross to read my book.
Greg Voisen
So I’m asking you this question, this is a question. You know, I've cycled all my life, my calves, my thighs, all that stuff is like, it's kind of rock hard in comparison to my upper body, which is not, but he's saying, that part isn't as important as you age. Because to keep your agility to keep your balance to keep it, you know, you want to be working as much as you can on your lower body. And I sitting here going, well, I've just been told I need to work on my upper body. So I'm just curious. Yeah, so
Steven Kotler
he's right. leg strength is the single most important correlate, okay, we're healthy longevity. But he's, there's a bunch of reasons. One, because social connection is so important for peak performance aging, that if we lose our mobility, that goes away, falls are a big killer of older adults, right? They, they lose their balance. And right. So also really important is bone density. So there's a lot of bone brain connection, most people don't realize that your bones store minerals, which the brain runs on. So if without a lot of bone density, some of the decline we see in the brain is actually a bone related decline. So you have to work on bone density, one of the reasons leg strength is emphasize the bones. But that's also upper body strength still matters, right? It's use it or lose it across the boards. And now, do you want to prioritize legs and lower body? Absolutely, you did? Yeah. You really, you really want you really do. But you don't want to you want to prioritize the entire kinetic chain. Right. And it's well, you
Greg Voisen
use you use weighted vests. And I know he was talking last night on the podcast with Tim Ferriss about how he goes out on a Sunday with weights in a pack, and literally will just do five hours, you know, like five hours on a Sunday of hiking with like, water in the backpack or whatever the hell he puts in there. Or weighted vests? What problems does that overcome? How did that help you? Yeah. So which muscles are is fine motor performance, the stamina? All of
Steven Kotler
it? Yeah. So yeah, it's, again, how you with a weight vest. You know, you have to who is clear The World Health Organization, if you want peak performance aging, you need 150 to 300 minutes of stamina training a week, to strength training days, three, balance, agility, and flexibility days, like, that's what you need for peak performance aging. So you, unless you want to train a couple hours a day, five days a week, you got to find multiple solutions, a single tool that solves multiple problems at once, skiing hits all of those, right. But I had to train for the skiing that I was doing. So I started with a heightening of the weight vest because it hits all the categories. And as you pointed it out, you get my motor performance, you get fast twitch muscle response, best twitch muscle response I got because I would go up with the weighted vests. And then I would come down fast, wasn't running, but I was moving faster than normal. So does that. And what about rowing? Rowing is great to a better outdoors than on a machine. Yeah, the outdoor, you know, Novolin outdoor environments better to exercising in nature is really important. The other thing is you want to dynamic motion. Rowing is not as powerful as a lot of stuff is a little bit dynamic, but it doesn't have you not there's not a ton of coordination. Once you get the patterns in. See there's cycling, road cycling versus mountain biking. So dynamic movements. When there's balanced coordination, strength all at once it actually improves. Not only does it all the physical stuff, it amplifies neurogenesis, angiogenesis, birth of new neurons, and the birth of new vasculature so there's new neurons get blood and oxygen, food so all that there's these compounding effects. That's what you're aiming for. We're in the final thing about weight vests is a there's data that it's slow but you can improve bone density with weight vests there are better ways to do it. We do some work with the company osteo strong that is phenomenal and you want like bone density problems or you're getting on in yours you haven't addressed boned as the osteo strong frickin amazing what they figured out. They've just got a way to load the bones very evenly and massively amplify a But bone basically, um astrocytes, ASTRA blasts astrocytes build up bone. And it's a pretty good place to start on that, you know what I mean? If you're looking if you're like I got, I don't necessarily know if I'm in the shape, like with a weight vest yet, start with a movement professional can start like working out what's like sort of like, can watch you walk and say, oh, you broke your ankle when you were 12. And you, you overcompensate here and under compensate here. And you know, one of the things that we have to be really careful of as we age is even with guys like you really strong legs, but do you favor your prime mover muscles over your stabilizer muscles, over time, the body will learn how to do that, right. And you want to train all of that stuff. So we don't get injured as we age
Greg Voisen
Well, you know, that the issue here is, Is this Steven is I know the listeners now have a pretty good idea of your experiment, how it worked out for you, I want him to go get a copy of this book. And there's a website called NAR country where you can buy multiple copies I have, I was on his webinar last Friday, he's got another one coming up. And we're gonna put a link to that as well. But yours two places that you can go and you can actually buy multiple copies of this book, I actually am going to be handing it out to my son and friends, my son who's a big snowboarder, anybody you know, please, you know, go do it. Just go to Nar country G and AR see you and see you and try.com. And there, you're going to see videos order now. And you can actually buy a multiple copies of this book. And then what you're going to get, which I've already been into and listened to and seen is what's called bonuses, he's got all these great bonuses that you guys can benefit from. And it's actually over $1,750 in bonuses and performance tools training available for a limited time. So, you know, the commercial here would be this. I've known Stephen for a long time, anything that he puts out is high quality, you're not going to have to worry about this, you're only going to pay $28 for this book. But if you get the book, and then you buy a few more copies of the book, you get more bonuses. So just go check it out seriously. Um, with that being said, you know, because I ended the show a little bit with praise for you. And I really, really honor you and all the work that you've done. This book chronicles that, and getting to this critical point in your life where you wanted to overcome these issues. What advice last bit of advice would you leave our listeners about with the path of peak performance? If there were three or four things I know we've talked about so much, you know, the psychology of it, the community element of it, the fear associated with the release chemicals in the last hour, we've talked about a ton. But if there were three things that I could go apply to my life today, what would that be?
Steven Kotler
So I'm gonna give you one thing and three ways to apply it, okay? You invert it, because peak performance ageing, starts with mindset. And so the mindset of old, which is that voice in your head, the one that says don't go down the hill at full speed, right, like, the mindset of the brakes on right, that now that shows up early, there's a bunch of like, sucking start to show up in our 20s It is the point you need to change it. And so that when the boy says you're too old for that shit, you got to fight it back. Why? Because a positive mindset towards aging. I am thrilled with the days that are in front of me the second half of my life, and think that with today's information filled with exciting possibility, you know, those kinds of thoughts. It translates literally to an extra seven and a half years of healthy longevity. We talked in the beginning about the mind body connection, use another example. And there's so much data on this and so people hear that and they go, Okay, I gotta shift my mindset around aging. How the hell do I do that? Here's my three things to do. So the first two, I'm actually gonna give you four. The first two are come out of Ellen Langers work she was she helped pioneer she's a Harvard psychologist. She often talked about the God Mother of positive psychology, the godmother of mindfulness movement. She was definitely there first. And she worked a lot on kind of the mindset of Aging and how do you fix it place to start is, with mindfulness of the present get curious about the present moment. And her advice is noticed because the brain likes to sort of pretend everything's the same. I'm the same person I was 10 years ago. It's it likes stability, but the truth of the world is changed. Everything is constantly changing. Every time you breathe, you're changing the internal chemistry, like everything's always changing her advice. You want to change your mindset around aging, start by noticing that change is foundational to life. And that's the constant, one to watch your language, limiting language, how you talk to yourself, how you talk to others don't sleep on how you talk to others. ageism is the most socially acceptable stereotype in the world. And it's deadly. People who grow up around a negative around negative stereotypes around aging, by the time they reach 60, they show a 30% greater decline in memory than people who grew up with positive ideas about aging. It's huge. And we are making we are inflicting penalties on people for you know, these negative mindsets around aging. So three,
Greg Voisen
creating our stock, would that be distilled down in what you think about you become,
Steven Kotler
in a sense, and I don't think I think it's important to create an AR style quest, because there's going to be stuff that you hang on to there's going to be residuals, right, and an AR style questions like find something that's impossible for you. So you sort of want to get done. And there's unfinished business as you want a lot of motivation to go in. And but it's something that if you were to prove it to yourself, if it were to if you were impossible, whatever you believed about the second half of your life has to go away. My narc 100 class was exactly what I did. That was what the biggest lesson and this is the biggest lesson of running this experiment with hundreds of other people at this point is when you create an experiment, and you go up against your own personal impossible, it just destroys these traditional mindsets and for put down your goddamn smartphone, put it away. Smartphones create it make it dumb. Well, they create a mobile mindset, which is like they emphasize solipsistic, narcissistic behavior, and it actually will block the very mindset you need. Right? And the other thing is peak performance aging. There's a lot to do this, you will there's you gotta get busy. Most Americans spend four to six hours a day on the frickin phone, on their phones. So, you know, where do you get the time put down the phone, it's bad for your brain. It's bad for your mindset, bad for and I mean, we could go on I could, I could literally talk for the next hour basically about all the detriments of smartphones to have on the brain and especially the aging brain, smartphones train down exactly the skills that we need to be training up over time.
Greg Voisen
Totally. I agree with you. I mean, I mentioned my wife the other day as we walk the dogs, you know, we walk the dogs probably 20 hours a week or more. The people with Down Hand Syndrome, you know, that walk right into you. They're so busy looking at the damn phone, they're not out enjoying the fresh air and, and whatever. They're like literally, we never take our phones with us anytime we walk the dogs right and but the reality is, is this, this is what you get. You get a lot of it. I mean, it's a lot. It's not just a little.
Steven Kotler
It's also Yeah, it's, I could go on. I know where I gotta go. I'm running out of time.
Greg Voisen
Hey, well, I appreciate you. Thank you. For all my listeners. We're gonna put a link to it and our country.com Gnarcountry.com. You can also go to the flow research collective, we're gonna put it there. Thank you so much. Namaste to you. Thanks for spending time with me today. It's always a pleasure having you on, Steven.
Steven Kotler
Greg, lovely to see you. As always. Thanks so much again for your interest.
Greg Voisen
I hope you get, I hope you get snow.
Steven Kotler
You too.
Greg Voisen
All right, bye.
Steven Kotler
Bye.
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Inside Personal Growth with Greg Voisen · Podcast 998: Be The Dawn In The Darkness with John Henry ParkerMy guest for this podcast is writer, narrator and one of the team communication consultants of Harvesting Wisdom, John Henry Parker. His new book entitled Be The Dawn In The Darkness: The Relentless Pursuit of Becoming Who We Are Meant To Be is set to be released on March 23, 2023.
John has been in the field of personal, professional, transformational, and leadership development for over 25 years and have worked with and for many authors and thought leaders such as Anthony Robbins, Tom Hopkins, Jim Rohn, Richard Miller, and many others. As a behavioral assessment analyst and communication consultant, he focuses on individual and team performance analysis, conflict resolution, and organizational and cultural development.
In his new book Be The Dawn In The Darkness, John invites us on his journey from heartbreak to happiness, fear to resolution in this inspirational account of a boy and his harbinger. He demonstrates how to turn struggles into hope, no matter what you’ve been through. This is such a good-to-read as it is a one man’s story and everyone could surely relate.
If you want to know more about John Henry, you may click here to visit his website.
I hope you enjoy my engaging interview with John Henry Parker. Thanks and happy listening!
You may also refer to the transcripts below for the full transciption (not edited) of the interview.
Interview Transcipt -Not EditedEmailDownloadNew TabGreg Voisen
Well, welcome back to Inside Personal Growth. This is Greg Voisen, host of Inside Personal Growth. And I have joining me, John Henry Parker. John and I have known for many, many years. And our paths crossed again because of his new book that he's got called Be the Dawn In The Darkness. Good day to you, John Henry, how you doing?
John Henry Parker
Good. Great. Great to see you, Greg.
Greg Voisen
It's great to have you on the show. And as we were talking pre the show for all of my listeners, this book is a very raw hero's journey. Very, very open. And he's very, I don't say authentic. During this, and the stories that are told, are really captivating, extremely captivating. It's very well written book. So kudos to you for writing such a great book. And it's a book that anybody can relate to. That's what I want people to know. All of these difficulties and traumas that we go through during our life a lot of times get put under the rug, and we don't address them. And John Henry is here to help you listen, and be open to you addressing these and I want to tell him a little bit about you. He's an American writer, narrator, team communication consultant. He says my condition, my credentials are my life experiences. And when you start to hear what we're going to talk about here, you'll say, Oh, my goodness, I realized now that your life experiences, there's a thing called experiential intelligence. It's like spiritual intelligence. It's like EQ, but there's experiential intelligence. And if there's anyone that has it, it's John Hendry. He considers himself a subject matter expert and researchers in the areas of trauma, depression, anxiety and shame. He speaks to humans, I believe humans race is running dangerously low on humanity says, the qualities that make us human are what I'm referring to. The ability to love have compassion and empathy for one another, and then permission that we give ourselves to share and create genius pen up inside. He really works a lot with veterans, transitioning veterans and their families. And in the memory of his son, Jan, Danny facto, was killed in excessive speed related motorcycle accident after completing his military service, also received a Purple Heart. For those of you who want to know more about John Henry, go to harvesting wisdom.com That's harvesting wisdom.com we'll actually put a link to that in this blog entry of our so just remember, you can learn more about the book the audiobook, by the way, for all those listeners, this book breaks on March 23. And John Henry, thanks for joining this morning. And, you know, like many families, some relationships are tumultuous, some are challenging, whether it's mom or its dad, or it's a sister, or a brother, or siblings. There are all kinds of challenges because one of the most challenging things we have to navigate during our life, most of us are relationships. You and your brother and sister had a very what's called tumultuous and abusive relationship with an alcoholic father. If you would help set the stage for the book by telling us a little about your dad. Because the way you talk about him in the book is just so descriptive, that I can see a picture of him almost it's like, Man, I can actually see the man because and I'll tell you why. Now, here's where my listeners can kind of relate. He was writing this about his dad, big guy, lots of muscles. That was my dad. My dad was a lot like John Henry's dad, although he didn't use alcohol. He just was angry. He was angry a lot. And you had to watch out when he pulled out his belt, because he had a little whip belt that he would pull out. And we all at times maybe have had this or something similar. So why did you write the book? Why now at this stage in your life later stage in your life? Explore all this and what do you want people to know?
John Henry Parker
Well, there's a lot in that question. I can tell you I started writing the book as a therapeutic writing project. Because I just started writing about certain painful things in my life. And I thought, if I just write about them, and I can get them outside of myself, I can look at them, you know, that might help. And it did. And the more I wrote, the more I came up with all these pieces of work that I started noticing that there was patterns. And there were times in my life where this was really present and real. But then I grew and evolved, and something else would happen. So I started reading about that. So it really began as just a way to kind of deal with unresolved trauma, you know, unprocessed trauma. And the more I got this outside of myself, the more I realized how therapeutic it was. It, it came to me one day looking at my desk full of papers in my folders on my computer, that there was something here and I'm a big fan of Joseph Campbell's work that he was journey. And so I started looking at graphics that represent the ARC of this hero's journey. And I pulled out a graphic, and I put it in PowerPoint, and I started creating little, teeny text squares. And I started writing all these little experiences chronologically, to follow the arc of the hero's journey. And then I come through it more and more and more, the more I looked at it, the more I saw my table of contents, you know, and, and so I created my table of contents, and I took the chapters that I already written. And I've plugged them right in. And it gave me just like a structure to think from and then I started with all the easiest ones first, and I saved the most painful to the very, very last. And I spent most of COVID writing this, it was my COVID project. And it took me about full two to three years now looking full circle. And so I read, I really wanted to write it because I needed to get it out of me and I needed to look at it.
Greg Voisen
Well, you can tell that it was very cathartic for you. I mean, ality when you when you look at how well you express yourself, and you follow the hero's journey, it truly was, and is, I should say, a tremendous work of love, you know, you could see that self-compassion was a big deal for you, you know, this relationship with your dad didn't have a ton of compassion in it, right? There was actually, as you mentioned in the book, a lot of hate. And there were things that he did, but it came full circle. You know, it went all the way around full circle. And I want to acknowledge you for that. Because a lot of people never take it full circle. They don't ever come back and we use it a term you use determine their and I haven't. And one of the questions that was so appropriate that you were extremely tolerant of this man at the end, right? I mean, where you could have just stayed angry the rest of your life.
John Henry Parker
Right? Well, growing up. I mean, he was a violent Korean War, a Marine Corps combat veteran, and it was terrible for him. And he would never talk about it. If there was ever anything, any kind of war movie on TV, he would just immediately stand up and walk out of the room. He was incredibly traumatized. And then he went to Vietnam. And got as a as a reconnaissance photographer. He joined the Air Force out of them after the Marine Corps became a reconnaissance photographer, and he got shot down with his pilot over Vietnam, and, and he had to evade capture. And that live in the water in the swamps, whatever. So that was even more traumatizing. So that's about when I came along, and my sisters and brothers and my sister and brother and I came along and he was just, he was really abused physically as a child, you know, and so he, he didn't really have the tools. But I gotta tell you, I'm not letting him off the hook because it's what he did was criminal and he should have gone to prison. There's so much worse far beyond getting spanked and getting abused once in a while. It was just relentless. It was continuous. And, you know, I
Greg Voisen
had PTSD, you know that and, and, you know, when I when I saw your description of him, I could relate to my dad, my dad grew up in an orphanage. He didn't have anything. He was in the Korean War as well. And I remember him when he you know, he would bring out these little artifact from where he was similar to your dad, right? And, but he was very angry. And I asked him I said, Hey, Dad, I remember once did you ever kill anybody? He goes, Yeah, and that wasn't the end of it. It was like I did. And then I said, how? And he said, Well, I was the mechanic for the jeeps and all the halftracks and stuff that was over there. And I was working on a guy tried to steal one and I actually knives tip, I stuck my bayonet knife through on her his knife. And I was like, wow, you know, and I'm only saying, you know, this is just one little incident, you can imagine what these guys deal with that are on the front line. You know, I mean, my dad wasn't on the front line even. And he was dealing with the trauma of what he had done, right. And you know, in this hero's journey, you right away, go from that very descriptive chapter to this chapter where you talk about your great aunt clad. Now this woman really was the pinnacle of giving you hope, and your life. And you referenced her, and you always receive three books from her at Christmas, you said, and you speak about a special note that she tucked away in this book about Michelangelo, that really had an impact on you. What I'd like you to do is tell the listeners the story, and the important message your aunt was telling you as a young man, about you know, Michelangelo, because you put a quote in the book, actually, that was there. And I it was about chiseling away. Right? Um, and, you know, this aunt was really very, very special. And I can relate because I had an aunt that was pretty much the same way.
John Henry Parker
Right? Well, the book is about, for me, it's there's, there's, it's about a lot of things. But one of the main things that I love the most about it is really paying attention to the matriarchs and patriarchs of families, and healthy adults. It just takes one healthy adult to care and to listen and to tell you, you're going to do extraordinary things with your life as a young child. And my whole thing is I believed her because she said it, she was that much of a wise matriarch of our family. And so every year, she would send these books and even before I could read, I would just look at the pictures. And it was my way of escaping. My mom and I would escape through movies and books and adventures and that sort of thing. Kind of could time travel in my mind, because I was so stuck in my environment, that I had a vivid imagination. So looking at the statue of David and talking to glad about it, she's, she's just really, really clear. You know that, you know, matter of fact, I'll just read the quote that was in this little, yeah, be great. Remember the story of the sculpting of David, through your most challenging experiences, you must chip away all that is not you to discover your true self and your life's purpose. You know, this is five years old. Yeah. And then I come across it again, when I'm 12 and 13. And I call her you know, and she's like, it's just so funny this how this whole thing works. Because she had a choice. She was she lived up in Ottawa, she worked for the French Embassy. And what after she retired, she would come live with us in Phoenix to get out of the winter cold for two months a year. And she couldn't live with my grandparents, a few hours away, down in Nogales, but she decided to come to Phoenix once a year, and embed herself in our house. And I now know and I knew later on that she did that. So she could give us some safety for a period of time away from my father because he would not dare, like offend her in any way. He was just a consummate gentle gentleman. And, you know, but before she would arrive, he would put us against the wall in the hallway and poke us in the chest and tell us we don't talk about what happens here in our home. If I hear anything from glad you will pay and he's punctuating while he's thumping us in the chest. You know, that's the kind of scariness that we grew up with. And so Gladys is just an incredible person in our life. She was awarded the French Legion Medal of Honor by the French government after the war, after the war. And she was the only Canadian journalist during the Nazi invasion of France and in Paris. And so up into the building up to the war, she was there as a Canadian journalist and she would go into Germany as a tourist and go to all the all the big marches and meet with people and talk to people and bring those stories back in her head. So she was really a pretty heroic woman. And so
Greg Voisen
she was also kind of a savior. She wasn't savior for you, like your grandparents. You know you had this tumultuous relationship with your father, but your mother was very loving, and kind and supportive. But you have this angry kind of beast of a father. Right? And but all around you, John Henry, you had a support structure, like what the hero's journey is about, right? It's like, okay, good endeavor out on the journey. You know, I certainly wasn't having a great relationship with my dad. But I had a good relationship with my grandparents, I had a good relationship with my aunt. I had all these other people in my life that were supporting you along the way. And if you would you tell great story about the upbringing in the book and special relationship you had with your grandparents. Can you tell the listeners about the time you were staying with your grandparents, and I thought this story was particularly poignant. And you ran into the street, and I can't remember what age you were at that time. And you said right out in the middle of the traffic, I'm all powerful. That's what you said, I'm all powerful. How did that make you feel? Now the repercussions afterwards from your grandparents weren't? Like the best your grandmother was like, Hey, what the hell are you doing kid go a run out in the street? What do you believe you were seeking by your actions? In other words, what was this? What were you trying to gain at that point in your life that you didn't have any of was it recognition? Was it the fact that you are all powerful? What, what was it that you needed a dose of,
John Henry Parker
I needed to find some kind of power because at that time, I was sitting at my grandparents’ house, and I was watching TV with my grandfather, like I always did, tucked into this big old chair that he had. And there was a show on TV where there was a bank robbery or something. And this policeman just walked right out in traffic and put his hands up, and everybody just screech to a halt. And I thought, Man, that's power. Like, I want to be a policeman. I remember telling my grandfather, I want to be a policeman, right? I want to be powerful like that. Because I thought, I knew I had no power whatsoever. And if I became a policeman, my father would never mess with our family again. So I just wired it up. So I'm like, I gotta figure this out. So I crawled off the couch, the up the chair, and I went to the kitchen, and I looked and wait, if my grandmother turned away, and I snuck out in the garage, and I ran down to the street, I had to know what it feels like. So I walked right out on the street in a car whizzed by, and I kept walking out and I put my hands up, you know, and all the cars stopped in both directions started honking. Right? And so just like the policeman, I was all powerful, right? And I'm, I'm just totally, like, amped up. And then I get snatched up and ran back to the house. And what are you doing? Are you crazy? And so they scold me, they didn't spank me, they scolded me and sent me to my room. But then, within about five minutes, I'm like, I gotta know if that was for real. And I wouldn't did it again. And some guy walking by snatch me up, and my grandmother grabbed him, and they hurt them more than hurt me. But compared to my dad, my grandfather picked me up by the belt loops of my little pants, and my grandmother hit me with a flyswatter. And I, I screamed convincingly, right?
Greg Voisen
Well, I can tell you this. For my listeners, right now, the book is filled with great stories, but there's lessons from all these stories, you know, and the lessons are what you're kind of dealing with psychologically and love the way you kind of blend it in as you tell the story. And you felt as if something was wrong with you, because of the result of your dad. And you felt numb because of all of the abuse. And I can imagine, you know, I can only imagine, what message do you have for the listeners that might be in a relationship like this? And how do they go about making either an escape if necessary, or healing the relationship if possible? Hmm.
John Henry Parker
Wow. I just speak of fear speaking for myself. I had a prevailing belief that there must be something wrong with me. And so it caused me to be distant and numb and not really fully available to friendships or relationships, because there's definitely something wrong with me is what I was raised with, you know, and I thought that way until I was in my 20s and 30s. And I was just doing everything I could to look and walk and talk couldn't be like everybody else, like successful people. And I was crafting this really important persona. But I lacked, I call it an internal cohesion. Like the, the projection that I put out to everybody certainly did not match myself. You know, I saw worth and my, you know, who I who I was inside and that that was really
Greg Voisen
good. How did you How'd you know that? I think the term that's been used before it's like there's a cognitive dissonance. Right? And, and, you know, it's like, what matches up with who I am and who I really want to be is two different things, you know, but obviously, this abusive relationship was the impetus for this, you reaching this point in your life, right, of not feeling worthy of not just feeling numb inside? Right? I could assume that you probably felt somewhat worthless.
John Henry Parker
Well, yeah, it was lower than then shame. You know, and I just had a father who used to, you know, just call me bad names, you know, that were just like, really disempowering. And, and my mother wouldn't, my mother wouldn't divorce them. So we were just forced to be in this relationship. And I say in the book, but thank goodness, my, my great aunt, she, I'll just call her Glad, glad provision to me really well, she said, Watch out for the people you least expect that you're going to bump into, because there's most of the time, they are here to teach you the most. So pay attention to the messengers that are constantly coming into your life. If you get broken down on a flat tire, guess what, there's somebody special, it's coming your way, pay attention. So these little nuggets, she just dripped on me as a little boy. And, and then for and one of those messengers, I happen to meet two weeks before I got out of the Marine Corps. And it changed the trajectory of my life completely. It's five minute conversation. So
Greg Voisen
well, there's always, you know, the hero's journey, as Joseph Campbell says, you know, out there all the time, you know, there are people there to help you, near what your aunt was saying is, you know, you, you just had to be aware of where they were, and listen, you know, and I think that's really important. And you reach this young adulthood, where you're carrying around lots of anger, let's face it, as a young adult, you weren't a really good kid. Okay? To say the least, at least, what's depicted in the book, speak with the listeners about what anger and resentment does to one soul, and why these emotions are so dangerous. Well, I,
John Henry Parker
I got so used to it that I didn't think I was being bullied or terrorized in the neighborhood, I got so used to it that I just didn't have a lot of self-worth. You know, when I left my house, my mom would ask me to go to the store. And there were there were groups of predators, like groups of guys gangs are guys that would constantly be chasing me down and, you know, just constantly getting beat up by groups of guys, you know, so I wouldn't say if in the home, I wasn't safe outside the home. And it can, it conditioned us a feeling of helplessness, like I was so thoroughly stuck, that I really didn't have any options and that that has a compounding effect. Over time, on your psyche, living. The adverse childhood experiences, the ACE scale, you know, if somebody has suffered from childhood abuse, that's a really good thing to take in on a scale of one to 10 on a 10. You know, if you're above a four, there are all kinds of predispositions that one has for alcohol, alcoholism, drug addiction, you get above four to six, and they're statistically you're gonna lose 20 years off your life. And I think mostly because of unresolved trauma, unresolved issues that you just can't get out of your system.
Greg Voisen
Well, the stress that causes in your life and it's, it's a chronic stress, you know, it's not one that ever goes away. There are all kinds of stressors we have in our lives, but they're not all chronic. Great. And so when you take that ace test, and I'll put a shout out to Dr. Brian Allman, for any of you looking to get more information about ace, he we have a podcast with him. But we have several with him. But you're right. I mean, you know, look, you felt hopeless and at the same time, you know, you had to fight back. You had to find a way to fight back So you were you were doing all kinds of things. And, and I didn't put this in my questions, but I'm bringing it up. Now, you know, you, your brother Russ was killed tragically, and had been doing drugs. And as a result, when they finally did the autopsy at the time of, you know him in his motorcycle accident, you literally, you know, he had been, I guess you've been taking cocaine and all kinds of things, right. But you had a special relationship with him. And I felt really sad at that point. And that in the book, and now it was. So speak about that, because where I'm going with this is, you know, this is about relationships. This is about healing. And that's one that I'm not certain that you ever got a chance to heal.
John Henry Parker
Yeah, it's tough. I lost my only brother to a high motorcycle accident. And then I lost my only son to a high speed motor motorcycle accident. Exactly. So this has been a, it's this book has been as much about grief and loss, like I say, in the book, grief and loss of my two greatest teachers in trauma as a close third. You know, so we had a special relationship. And, but it was, it was on the verge of abuse of it at times, because he was like, six foot five, with a full beard size. 13 and a half shoe was like 16 He was like a huge guy, you know, and I'm a skinny little kid, you know? So we were we were close because we lived in trauma together. Right? We bonded in trauma, a big time. And he was my brother, and nobody can mess with them. But we had a close relationship, but he really got something from my dad, that's level, I think we all did this level of volatility. And you know, and when I want to go to the Marine Corps, I came home one day, he tried to pull that on me and, and I just beat him up, you know, and so it shifted our relationship, but we but we needed that like, like, he needed to look me in the eye and just talk to me and not be his little brother anymore. And so when he passed away, it was, it was the strangest thing, seeing him on the table identifying, you know, like, he's there. But he's not here, like, where did he go? I was just astonished with this whole thing. And I never, I never really felt the pain, I just go numb. And I just I just check out, you know, and so I buried all my feelings with us and just moved on. But that's just a symptom of trauma. It's like, you don't have the capacity to cope. So you just go numb, and I'm fine. I'll get through it.
Greg Voisen
I think that's important for the listeners because you know, grieving. I lost two brothers this last three years, not from COVID, one from Parkinson's, the other from a heart condition. And, you know, I found it even challenging to kind of grieve through that process, you know, being very personal. And, and I don't think it has anything to do with them being a brother, it has to do with the relationship you've built along the way. Were you very close? Did you spend a lot of time together? Were you sharing similar likes and things that you'd like to do? And I have to say, you know, there were four of us. And I have to say with those two brothers in particular, there wasn't a lot of that going on. It was kind of like you grew up and they went their way you want your way kind of thing, right? And so it's in a lot of families. This is true. I know. I'm speaking the truth. Because you're a lot of times you're closer to your best friend than you are to your brother or your sister. Right? So it is it is interesting because you find people that are closer in relationship to you because of the things that you're bonded by. Right. And you were bonded by something kind of negative, actually, which was your father's abuse to the two of you. And you tell a story about your father. It he used to work as a bouncer in a nightclub in Arizona and I just thought this was just like, I read this and I was like, I was I was almost in tears. The following morning, he would tell you about the fights that he had with patrons and they broke up you said sometimes he came on with a black guy or a knife mark or whatever he had on him. And one morning he was acting out with you and said that if you were ever in a fight with a Mexican which in Arizona, there are a lot in California, there are a lot to break their fingers because they all have knives and they know how to use them. Okay. I couldn't even believe that statement, to be honest with you that that actually could come out of somebody's mouth, but I guess it did it was your dad. This incident must have had an indelible imprint on your mind. And what do you take away from this encounter with your father? That is much deeper than just the statement? Because what he told you in that statement? Was he, I guarantee your father had plenty of prejudices? Okay. It just is, there was one of them. But there was only one small one. I can really guarantee you it. He had plenty of prejudices along the way.
John Henry Parker
Probably. I took it as kind of strange, that's for sure. And he didn't say fingers is that if you're going to fight with a Mexican and break their hands, because they don't carry knives? And I'm like, No, what I thought about I'm like, you know, I live in I live in southwest Phoenix, like, all my friends are Mexicans. And they all they all had knives. And I'm like, okay with that make sense. And they didn't know how to use them. And so it's like, it was a bad neighborhood. You know, what was really what was really shocking, is he told me to pick up a knife off the table. And to come at him and try to stab him. Yeah. And he took out his Billy club. And I'm like, I'm not going to stab you. And he totally thumped me on the arm. He came at me and tried to stab me. And eventually he coaxed me into and I came at him, I tried to stab him. And he knocked my wrist with this stick so hard that the knife flew across the room, you know, and it really hurt. And he's, and I, you know, didn't, he didn't care that I was in pain, he's like, go get the knife. Come at me another way. You know, and so I start swishing the knife out, and back and forth, coming towards him. And he, he clocks me in the elbow, and the knife flies away. You know, he's like, don't fight the knife. You know? And, I mean, he wouldn't, he wouldn't let me take karate to defend myself, but it'll teach me how to fight with knives. I mean, it just like that, you know, this is the kind of warped fathering relationship I had with him.
Greg Voisen
Yeah, it was a it was a very compelling story. I mean, you know, I, I don't think I've ever read a book that has had that kind of compelling of a story. But I think this leads us to this point that you want the readers to kind of get from this. And you have a chapter entitled finding your inner compass. Okay? And what advice would you have for our listeners about finding this inner compass, because it is really a key thing, right? It's like, we're all trying to find it. And with somebody who's been through as much abuse, and as much trauma, you know, all your military career, everything aside, all my listeners, when you get this book, you're gonna get to read about all of that. How did you ultimately and your estimation, or are you still looking for it, find your inner compass?
John Henry Parker
Well, glad would always talk to me about you know, you're going to find your purpose, you're going to find what you're here to do in the world. And she just kept talking to me about what is your purpose, you know, and, and, quite frankly, it is not in the book, but survive the neighborhood. Okay, and then you have to go to school, go in the military, but get out of here. That was our strategy. You know, she, she used to say, you're going to be an adult a lot longer than you are a child, this will end sooner than you think it's going to take a few years. So she was provisioning me for the hero's journey on a constant and regular basis. Like some, this is a big one, someday, someday, you're going to have kids and I want you to make a promise with me that you will never ever break. And then when that you're granted, your son has children, he'll pass it on to them. And she said that your father has been incredibly abusive to you, but you're different. And you're going to be an adult a lot longer than you're going to be a child. And when your son is old enough, I want them I want you to make when you're when your children are old enough, I want you to make this same promise. And that promise is that you will never raise a hand you never hit your children in anger than you'll never have them live in fear of you. This is how we break the generational cycle because you will have a family Sunday. It's just really bad right now bad things are happening. So these little nuggets and then sure enough when I had what had my son when he was old enough, eight years old. I said I want to I want to make a promise with you. You know, and then when he was 24 in the military, he thanked me for making that promise that we never hit each other So my whole thing was, I gotta break this generational cycle, this hereditary violence of the men in my family is just, it's just too prevalent, it's going to repeat itself. So she was provisioning me once again, for how to be a healthy person, because I'm going to have more choices when I'm an adult. And this little promise is just one example of, you know, I never I'm not a violent person, I have, you know, I had a rage problem. But I wasn't really violent. I was triggered by authority figures and people trying to control me. And it was bad recipe. And then if you throw in a bunch of beer in, then it really gets pretty violent. Yeah.
Greg Voisen
Well, you know, you the opportunity you had from the hero and the hero's journey with this case was glad, you know, was the reminder of who you could be. And your inner compass was really realizing that, that you didn't have to do this through anger and violence, right? That you could raise children in your life, as she said, you're going to be an adult a lot longer than you're going to be a child, you'll get through this. And I would agree with that. I mean, and when you look at this thing called a histogram, many of my listeners know, it's like the history of your family, right? It's like your grandfather, your great grandfather, and you see patterns that start to occur in a histogram. Right? And I'll never forget this author that I was interviewing John Henry, not that long ago, talking about something very similar to what you just said. And I think this is very poignant. So his, he was in the kitchen, and he and his brother decided to play with knives and there was a babysitter. And they had a set of knives and they're swinging these knives around. And this babysitter, which was a male babysitter, grab to get them to stop doing it. And in the process, he cut the babysitter's finger off. Okay? Right. So now think about this, cut the babysitter's finger off, like they call they get the emergency. Take him down. Fortunately, they sewed his finger back on again. But here's the moral to that story. He thought his dad was going to beat the living shit out of him when he got home for the knife fight. But he didn't. He said, Oh, that's okay. He was very complacent about the whole thing. You know, I know you guys are just kind of acting out. And he didn't reprimand him. He didn't hit him. He didn't. He didn't do anything. But what he did tell him was, you know, my father was part of the Jewish mafia. And I had to live up with a father that beat the holy shit out of me. My leg, literally, so you're talking about breaking a pattern. He said, I got beat for everything by my dad, because he was just an angry man. So this Skye's grandfather, right? So they broke the pattern with his father, and his father, this it made him look at his children, like you're doing and become a loving, compassionate, understanding individual. And that leads me to John Henry, in the chapter, the dude from Philly, you came to an understanding with your father, that, that you knew you no longer needed to hurt him? What happened to you? And how did you let go of all the anger you had within over the years? And what should the listeners know about one, self-compassion and compassion for others? Because look, you beat yourself up for a long time. John Henry beat himself out based on what I could tell in the book for a long time.
John Henry Parker
Right? Well, I went in the Army briefly. And then I went in the Marine Corps. And I did it because I wanted him to be proud of me. So it's really kind of a twisted sense of, I need no it's
Greg Voisen
not. No, it's, it's, you're trying to get recognition. It's very normal. Yeah, very normal for you know, the pattern you're talking about, is you're looking for somebody who was never proud of you to be proud of you. So you did something that you thought would make him proud of you.
John Henry Parker
Which made me very angry. Like when I say twisted, I was twisted up inside because of all the abuse and here I am joining the Marine Corps and crowded me. So that was a form of magma. You know, that really, so I went in because I was just tired of being messed with and I was just not going to, I was gonna I wasn't going to have it anymore. You know? On so I gained 2030 pounds. And, you know, I just became a military athlete like all of us were. And, you know, when I come back, I, I took him for a drive one day. And he was, he was nervous. I'm like, I gotta go across town to run an errand, you want to come with me, and I need to talk to you. So you lay reluctantly got in the car with me. And then I went up the freeway, and I pulled off on a pull behind an old abandoned gas station. Now I can see him visit visibly, like, like, ready to fight. Like, and, and I just, I just looked over at him, and he was getting older. And, and I just, I just, I just thought about glad. And I thought about like, I'm not you. I'm not you. You know, there's a sense of gratitude for glad that just came over me. And I was and it was, it was like, you know, I need to have a conversation with you. And I just started talking to you about what some of the frustrations are, that I've been experiencing in my life, you know, didn't attack him. I just said, this is what I'm doing. And I couldn't believe it. He started crying. And he said, you know, he started telling me that he had the same problems. And we, in a weird way, we kind of struck a chord.
Greg Voisen
And horse,
John Henry Parker
I was still I was, man. I later in life, I let him have it. Like, I didn't physically let him have it. But I later in life, because this was the first time I ever saw him, you know, in a way that he was relatable that he was actually talking with me. He
Greg Voisen
emote? It was the first time he really emoted. Right, yeah, so emotions show. And I remember reading that, and I was so happy that that actually occurred. For both.
John Henry Parker
Well, you're bringing up a good point, about 50%. The first 50 to 60% of the book is about the relentless pursuit of becoming who we are meant to be. It's like the stacking on experiences and just surviving and then learning and then growing. And then then it takes on the trajectory is interrupted. And a state takes on more of an aspirational trajectory. Okay, because it has to go through the pain, like it was really difficult to write this. But right up front, the very first chapter is about this little kid sitting with his aunt glad, because we had a secret, like every day, which for those two months, my sister and brother never figured it out. She'd get up at 430. And I'd hear her get up and start cooking bacon, Canadian bacon, cheddar cheese toast, and she made coffee cream and maple syrup. So I'd sneak out of the room. And I go hang out with her for like two to three hours every single morning and sit at her feet and talk with her. You know, and so, you know, these little things,
Greg Voisen
relating to and I think for all of my listeners is, you know, your father had this history, too. You didn't probably understand that history that got him to where he was. And many of us don't, you know, we may hear the story, but we don't know what it's like. And we don't have the tolerance or understanding for someone's behavior who's been that has been affected by how they were brought up. You know, so if you looked at your dad and said, Well, what was your dad? What was your grandfather? Like? You know, what was his grandfather like, right? And you go back in time, and you'll find that there's patterns, there are patterns. Alcoholism is a pattern usually, you know, sometimes it skips a generation. But the reality is, alcohol and drugs are patterns. Anger and abuse are patterns. And those patterns are there. And I'm so happy you wrote this book, because you show how you can break that pattern. You actually said, You came home, and you termed this the tumultuous relationship had turned into one of tolerable neutrality is what you say. What lesson did you learn and what do you what could you tell any military listener to know about reentry into civilian life, whether they've had this experience or just because you have tons of experience in this area, right. It's like this is you counsel veterans? And I think for all the veterans out there listening. John Henry is a is a great resource for you go to harvesting. wisdom.com he's got another website that we're gonna put a link to as well, which is more around the veterans. What's the name of that website?
John Henry Parker
transitioning veterans book.com
Greg Voisen
transitioning veterans book.com So we're gonna put a link there, if you would address in particular we have so many right now. I mean, you got all these people that are in various locations, and we have this stupid ass war in Ukraine that continues on. I mean, and yes, there are some of our guys going there to help fight with the Ukrainians. War is never, you can never say at the end of a war than anything great happens other than it ended. You know, they, you know, it does more to divide and separate people. I always said that religions frequently did more to divide people. But it's almost intolerable every time you kind of think about what's going on the inhumanity. That's, that's being located in Ukraine. It's nuts. It is it is. And people have to reenter. You know, I'm not saying that we have people in Ukraine that are reentering. But we have people from Afghan and the Afghan war went on for 12 years. Was that right? Yeah. And so you reenter, yeah, you reenter with a, you know, PTSD or something which you deal with this a lot. What advice would you have for military listeners that are coming back trying to reenter and get back with their families? And
John Henry Parker
well, I, I wrote this audio book and narrated the audio book called transitioning veterans, how we get in our own way, and what to do about it. And because I've been working for 25 years, with veterans and veterans organizations, and I was just collecting all these common dilemmas, and, you know, it comes down to a fundamentally a few things. Identity, mission, meaning and purpose, you get that when you go in the military, okay, and you're it's galvanized into you, no matter what the branch, you have a sense of identity, you know, who you are, you're wearing this uniform, your training, you have people that you work with, like in the Marine Corps, unit corps, God and country, that's the ethos, you know, the people serving next to you first, you know, then the Marine Corps, then your God, then your country. And I just saw for so many, so many years, people coming back, and they get out of the military, and if they're wounded and they get separated, or they come home, then they separate from military service after they've the career. They don't, they're not told during the transition program out of the military, hey, you're gonna go through an identity crisis, you need to reinvent yourself. So we get out and we can't fill up the void with drugs or alcohol or sex or, you know, workaholism or adrenaline, okay. But when I found the most interesting conversation with veterans is, you know, when they realized that they need to reinvent themselves specifically around creating a new identity. And I think with my son when he came back from Afghanistan and separated from the military, who are you? Like, who are you now? Who are you becoming? And his case, we decided that he needed to have an identity of being a college student. Right? Like, you're no longer in the military, you don't have a degree, your job options are limited. So what do you want to do you want to use your military benefits? So great. So then what's your new identity? I guess, to be a student? Well, then what's your first mission? And then after a lot of conversation, okay, your first mission is to go get in possession of all the educational materials, who the veterans counselors are in your area for the school, you know, and then what's what, what are you gonna do with all this? What gives you meaning and purpose? What are you thinking about? Well, he wanted to be a counselor for veterans, because so many of the people that he spoke with were non veterans weren't as relatable. So he's like, I could do a much better job. So okay, so now you have something with a future vision, what gives you meaning and purpose. So instantaneously, he was galvanized into he needs goals, like military personnel are there, they thrive on objectives. And then when you don't have one, if you don't stand for something, you'll fall for anything? Right? I found most of the work, and also found out a lot about substance abuse. Like I really got clear that I'm not an alcoholic. I'm certainly not an addict. But I have abused alcohol and little in drugs at times when I'm talking. Mostly just binge drinking with the wrong people in the wrong situations. Because I was numbing out. You know, so taking a look at you know, how you're reconstructing your life, like who are you becoming? It's a big part of this book, the relentless pursuit of becoming who we are meant to be. So with veterans, it starts with like getting real, you know, identity, mission, meaning and purpose. If they had that when they got out cuz most people most veterans, I think we just turn our life into a mission. And like when I came home I was really just too cocky, because, you know, I had my identity as in the Marine Corps. And I was only in for a small, I didn't do a career, I was only in for one term. But it's so ingrained into you that you're once you're a Marine, you're always a Marine. There's no question, no doubt whatsoever. So it is just instilled into every single one. And so it's really tough to kick when you get out. And, you know, fortunately, I'll tell you what the biggest nugget to your question would be. Fortunately, two weeks after I got out, before I was getting out of the military, I ran into a warrant officer in a USO in Okinawa, Japan. And I was drinking with my buddies and getting really loud about what we're going to do when we get out. And when I went to get your beer, he tapped me on the shoulder and asked me to give me some advice. And long story short, he said, I go to the closest bookstore, I go to the Self Help section. And I'd find anything that jumps off the shelf at me and I start reading about who I'm becoming. Because I was I didn't want to go to counseling. But I certainly I could certainly start getting into personal development. And that's how I met you 20 some odd years ago. Yeah. I got into professional personal transformational development because of that one five minute conversation?
Greg Voisen
Well, you know, you, you've had a very interesting journey, and that this book about the hero's journey is, is wonderful. I can just tell for my listeners, this is extremely well written. If you're wanting to read something that you personally can relate to. Good chances are there's parts of his book you're going to relate to. And the novel, as I said, these compelling stories, and you call it the Where's wisdom, you know, what three bits of advice would you have for our listeners about personal growth? Finding out who they really are, and their purpose in life, if you are going to leave our listeners with are kind of a, this is the last question. Here's some bits of advice I could give you. What would you tell him?
John Henry Parker
was the first question because? Well,
Greg Voisen
the there's three parts to the question. But then the first part is about personal growth. What is it that you would tell them, you just actually told me in the last one, you said, go to a bookstore and find a book and start to explore yourself? The second one is finding out who you really are, and their purpose in life so that I know when you find out who you are you find your purpose. You know, Curiosity is basically something that I think people need to have, if they're going to find a purpose, right? Focus, as you said, You're determined you're on a mission. I've done many interviews with Steven Kotler who talks about hacking flow, right? So you talk about how do I get into the flow while you focus is for free? Having curiosity is important. Having a purpose is important, and then turning that purpose into goals. And those goals and proximal goals, right? So if you were to say, well, what is the personal growth cycle? It's not that difficult. It's like you have to be curious, you have to have a purpose, right? You need to be on purpose more than you're off purpose. You need to have a set of goals or aims. You can't be attached to those aims. Because they don't always work out the way you think they're going to work out. So if in your mind's eye you go, Hey, this is the way I'm going to build this empire, do whatever doesn't always work out that way. So as long as you don't get too attached to it and you're flexible, I think you're in pretty good space. Right? But what would you say about purpose and, and I say finding out who you are.
John Henry Parker
Well, Viktor Frankl you need go no further than looking at Maastricht. For me.
Greg Voisen
Yeah, definitely Frankl
John Henry Parker
Viktor Frankl was a mental health professional who was taken to the concentration camps, his family was taken away. As soon as they were dead, and they stripped them all was closed and then they told him to take off his wedding ring. And in that moment, he discovered that the only thing he had control of was how he responded to his captor right. And so He then wrote Man's Search for Meaning and carried the manuscript I guess, in the in his jacket, okay. And it became a worldwide phenomenon for from meaning and purpose therapy logotherapy and I was adopted by the whole VA system. You know, what, what meaning and purpose can you draw from your or city, like, there must be some reason why you survived. That is to, you know, that's going to somehow give you meaning and purpose and create something extraordinary with your life and it's up to us to find it. You know, and so
Greg Voisen
when he was in those concentration camps, another thing he said, and this could relate very much to your father, you know, he, your dad did everything he could. I don't think intentionally, it was more of subconscious, but to strip you of, of your dignity, you know, your identity, your a dignity, whatever. And Frankl said that at some point in the book, that these concentration camp officers would attempt to break you down to where you, your where identity less than you didn't, your dignity was gone, right, just the way that they treated you with the slop they gave you everything. And he said, If you can always overcome that you can overcome almost anything. Right? Yeah. You know, how about the guy who spent what it was 363 days in a in a concentration camp, I forget. And then he, I remember watching him to do a speech. And he loved playing golf. So he played golf in his mind over and over and over again, for 365 days, right? And he got out and they said, what do you want to do? And he says, I want to play golf. And he went to a golf course. And he shot an actual par. It was like as he played it in his mind's eye, no matter what they did to him. You know, they weren't going to strip him of one thing that he really loved doing right, which was I thought that was an amazing story. Right? It's like he hadn't had a golf club in his hand for like, three years.
John Henry Parker
Wow. Yeah, that's impressive. Yeah,
Greg Voisen
exactly. Exactly. So I think when you're when you're in that situation, like you were with your father or anybody is they've got to, like, start putting images in their mind's eye that are completely different than the situation they're in. Right?
John Henry Parker
Right. Well, I would, yeah, I would time travel, I would check out and I would find ways for me to not be present. So I learned how to numb out unfortunately. And that carried with me for a long time. And then I also have hid out a lot. Yeah, you're asking me earlier. And then like, what's the key? For me, I found out that I was so good at hiding out that I could watch others and in competitions, and the military was really easy to hide out. And I could watch how people crumbled and how their body posture didn't quite work. And I got to see massive amounts of failure. And I would intentionally hold back. So when I when I would get a really pretty good idea of what it's going to take to do something and I would probably nail it on the first try. Or, or I would just how I would show up and look and communicate would be so much more congruent that I was able to get through things. And what I learned when I went to this program that warriors wisdom years later is go first, go first. That was a big deal for me, because I was so conditioned to hiding out not wanting to be embarrassed not wanting to look bad, you know that I was just literally hiding out. And I was really good at mimicking and modeling and matching, like what's going on in my surroundings. From a survival point of view, I was really good at that. And then I learned I started learning. Like when I got to the Marine Corps, I had very limited vocabulary and a very limited range of emotions. And I had a rage problem. I got in a lot of trouble in military because of rage, you know, and alcohol related rage incidents, you know, and so, you know, being able to really kind of focus on who I'm becoming personal development for me, was my just the biggest ticket and everybody I've ever talked to, like that warrant officer that met me where I was and told me to go to the Self Help section of the bookstore. I've been paying that five minute conversation forward 10s of 1000s of times since that moment, and I never saw that guy again. You know, and so that your life can transform in a blink. You know, if you're it's not even if you're ready for it, but if you're open,
Greg Voisen
you know, yeah. And I think it's also being aware of the messages, right. In other words, if you're going through life with a heightened sense of mindfulness and awareness, you can pick up on these subtle messages that are coming from everywhere. And you get an opportunity to redirect the course of your life as a result of GLAAD as a result of your grandparents, as a result of all the good people in your life that we're instilling great behavior and learnings into teachings right, that you then could carry forward to your kids. And it's been an honor having me on inside personal growth and talking about your book. For everybody who is listening. We'll have a link to the book comes out March 23. Be the dawn in the darkness. John Henry Parker, John Henry, Namaste to you. Thank you for being on the show. Thanks for spending some time with my listeners. A great opportunity to hear about your personal story but as important the lessons that you learned and the lessons that my listeners can take away.
John Henry Parker
Thanks for having me. It's been wonderful. Appreciate it.
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Inside Personal Growth with Greg Voisen · Podcast 997: Humanist Manufacturing with Dr. Joe SprangelJoining me in this episode is the founder and principal consultant of Emmanuel Strategic Sustainability, Dr. Joe Sprangel. He also just released his book last January entitled Humanist Manufacturing: A Humanitarian Approach to Excellence in High-Impact Plant Operations.
Emmanuel Strategic Sustainability’s (ESS) approach accelerates solutions to today’s manufacturing challenges. They help organizations define its purpose by asking the types of questions that enable everyone within the organization to examine, clarify, and consciously evolve their desired purpose and commitment to both themselves and the organization.
Relevant to their vision, Dr. Joe Sprangel also created a book entitled Humanist Manufacturing: A Humanitarian Approach to Excellence in High-Impact Plant Operations. This is a step-by-step guide for reinventing business blueprints to foster planet-friendly, person-first commerce. If you like comprehensive systems, progressive success stories, and thinking outside the box, then you should grab a copy of this book!
If you’re interested and want to know more about Dr. Joe and ESS, you may click here to visit their website.
I hope you enjoy my engaging interview with Dr. Joe Sprangel. Happy listening!
https://youtu.be/T5ewq4rbRoY
You may also refer to the transcripts below for the full transciption (not edited) of the interview.
Interview Transcipt -Not EditedEmailDownloadNew TabGreg Voisen
Well, welcome back to Inside Personal Growth. This is Greg Voisen and the host of Inside Personal Growth. And I have Joe Sprangel joining us. And Joe has a book out called Humanist Manufacturing: A Humanitarian Approach to Excellence in High Impact Plant Operations. And what we want to say to all our listeners is not just for that it's really across the board, being humanist and a better humanist leader. Okay. And, Joe, Good day to you.
Dr. Joe Sprangel
Thank you, good day to you as well, my appreciate.
Greg Voisen
Well, and you are joining us from where,
Dr. Joe Sprangel
in Stanton, Virginia, and part of the Shenandoah Valley in Virginia,
Greg Voisen
beautiful part of the country, thanks for taking this time to impart some of your wisdom on our listeners about this. And I'm really looking forward to this. So let me let our listeners know a little bit about you, Joe, it's Dr. Joseph rango. dB A is an Associate Professor of Business at Mary Baldwin University. He's also the founder and principal consultant of Emanuel Strategic Sustainability. That's the website we're gonna have a link to. So all of you can go there to learn more about Joe and his teaching. He blends his academic and industrial background to redefine the role of manufacturing to an industry and effectively and efficiently balances environmental, financial and social success that leads to more inclusive and sustainable local economies, for all community members. He's a fascinating individual. And he's earned his Doctor of Business Administration degree from Lawrence Technical University. He also holds a Master of Business Administration degrees from Spring armor, university, spring Arbor, and a Bachelor of Business Administration from Eastern Michigan University, and an associate degree in mechanical engineering technology. So you're speaking with someone that knows what he's talking about here. Joe, you know, to kind of kick this off, you wrote this book to bring more of a humanistic approach to manufacturing. And I want to say to everybody listening, don't let the word manufacturing discourage you from listening to this podcast, because this is really more about being more humanistic. In the whole organization. Can you tell our listeners a bit about your background, and why you believe shifting the focus to being more humanistic will result in greater productivity in the workplace.
Dr. Joe Sprangel
So I spent nearly 30 years in manufacturing shortly after I got to high school. And I began at the Labor level. And eventually I worked up to various maintenance, engineering and supervisory positions. And ultimately, I was in a role of a plant manager for FY different operations. It simultaneously I was also attending college in evenings and weekends, and earn dead bats, I'm sorry, business in engineering degrees from an associate to a doctorate, like you mentioned, while working full time. So the great thing is that allowed me to apply what I was learning right away. And I really enjoyed that aspect of going that way. And then I tell people, jokingly that I had a midlife crisis, I decided to become an academic. I didn't really have one. But it always makes for a better story, right? So but I transitioned to higher ed for the last 15 years, of which five and a half years I was a dean, and the balance of that I've been teaching, undergraduate and graduate courses. And as I studied, and both in the university settings, and just reading trade publications, and so forth, I really had a focus on what I call organizational excellence. I was into change management, leadership, principles, management, strategy, and so forth. Throughout my career. I was honored to be part of one of those best plants, that industry weeks does, or the Shingo prize or something like that. And while I didn't accomplish that, I feel like now I'm trying to help other organizations achieve maybe my dream, so working vicariously through them.
Greg Voisen
Well, you're still teaching. Yeah, you're still you're still teaching. And I think it's, you know, this, I think, Pete, our listeners have heard about the humanistic approach. There's the, you know, when you look at corporations, you can look at the balance sheet, what is the human capital balance sheet of a business and we look at human capital, we don't often realize business owners how important that element is, you know, because when you list your assets on the balance sheet, it's like hard plant equipment and all this stuff that you own, right. But when you realize If you have turnover, high turnover in a business, and especially in manufacturing, which it does seem to occur, more likely there may be at a place like Amazon where people are being pushed to get packages to get things in boxes and so on and go down assembly lines, you have that you gave a list of manufacturing companies that have been exempted zyk exemplars and have laid the foundation for others. Can you comment on some of these leaders and what they did differently to be focused on this human element at work? I think sometimes, always real examples are more important than anything.
Dr. Joe Sprangel
Yeah. So commonality between all these leaders with they embrace the power of business to create a better world. And as a result, they gave their workforces kind of a unifying purpose, or what Simon Sinek is called the why. And it really helps to develop a deeper level of employee engagement. And his TED talk on why he has been viewed over 61 million times. So it's certainly you know, the concept resonates for people. And..
Greg Voisen
But just an insight, just on my little show, he's at over 250,000 downloads about the interview I did with him on why. So you can see why he's had would you say 9 million is what you said? No, I
Dr. Joe Sprangel
said it's been viewed 61 million times
Greg Voisen
61 million times. So I added to that. So go ahead. I'm sorry that I interrupted you. But I want to let my listeners know there is a podcast with Simon Sinek on Inside Personal Growth, so..
Dr. Joe Sprangel
Good to know. And but each of them has also been a trailblazer, kind of following a path less traveled, I would say. So Ray Anderson was the founder and CEO of interphase. Unfortunately, he's passed away since but he had a spear in the chest epiphany after reading the ecology of commerce declaration of sustainability by Paul Hawken. And that led him on a path to take an interface to becoming an initially a zero impact company. And right now they're working on becoming a regenerative manufacturing operation. And then Mary Barra is one that I profiled and just been amazed with the work that she's done at General Motors in what they're doing right now to help create a safer, greener and better world. And
Greg Voisen
then what about your Elon canard at Patagonia? What would you say about him? I've seen him? Yeah, he doesn't. He doesn't speak a lot before a lot of groups. But I've read his book, let them play or whatever it's called. But he he's a fascinating man who started this a long, long time ago. Yeah.
Dr. Joe Sprangel
Well, he was a mountain climber that I think he described himself as becoming an accidental business owner, that wasn't his plan when he started out. Right, one of the things that he found is that by making these decisions that were best for the planet, ultimately, they also positively impacted the bottom line. And that wasn't ultimately of the importance to him, obviously, he wanted to have a viable organization. But his first focus was what can we do as an outdoor apparel company and equipment supplier, to make sure that we're not harming the environment, which we enjoy so much. And so he created this, you know, purpose for his organization that, that gets people to buy from sorry to want to work for the organization. People feel good about buying their product, because they know hey, it's going to work well being it's, it's coming from a company that has values that that align with them as well. So, you know,
Greg Voisen
you know, and from a manufacturing standpoint, he also used to put out ads and he still does, you know, if you know, if you have a jacket and you don't need this don't buy my jacket. Right. Right. And, and I really don't think that was a ploy to get people to buy his jacket. I really believe he sincerely believe that. You know, some people say it's greenwashing. You know, just, he just did it. But the point is, is that he was saying that the energy that it takes to manufacture a jacket and get the supplies and all the rest of stuff when you look Cradle to Cradle, right? If you look at your closet, like I've looked at mine, and I'm using this as an example, I probably got 10 or 12 jackets in here, right? Do I really need another Patagonia jacket? Right? And then the question is, do I trade mine? No, because he's got a program where you can actually go and kind of recycle these. These jackets. I believe that's extremely smart. Yeah,
Dr. Joe Sprangel
well for him, it's not greenwashing because of the man just put the entire company into a trust to protect the environment moving forward, right? So he's not worried about money, right? Yvonne Shannara is not going to be having problems with that. But he's used business in a manner that is now going to be perpetually helping to create profits that will then also benefit the environment,
Greg Voisen
well, socially responsible. And I think when you talk about manufacturing, and people, there's, there's a guy called, it's a nonprofit called Clean the world. Now his great manufacturing story for you, we manufacture all these bars of soap that go into these hotels. And people only use them once, exactly. And then they throw them in the boxes, and this guy takes 2500 pounds a day. And he recycles them and makes them into soap that can be used by the homeless, and he sent them all around the world, right. And I kept thinking to myself, it's like, there's this whole process to grind them and put them on the manufacturing line, and then resend them and, and you know, and they come in these every day, they get 1000s and 1000s of pounds of these soaps from Marriott and all these places, and you look at it, you go, that is socially responsible at its very core, right. And I loved it. In your book, you outline six phases of humanistic manufacturing. I'd like for you to briefly mention the six phases, because we don't have time in a 40 minute podcast to cover everything, but we're gonna get, let my listeners will, we'll get to them and then give the 10 humanistic commitments of living humanistic values. And I think if we did that, and then I've got more questions that lead in and follow into that.
Dr. Joe Sprangel
Alrighty, well starts out with phase one, where we look at the humanist commitments that are listed in the book that you mentioned. And looking at them from a perspective of better understanding them, adopting them, and then integrating those into the organization. And, you know, are these something that that can align with what a business owner or leader is trying to accomplish? And then move into the second phase where I recommend an owner, a leader actually, kind of does a self-assessment of their leadership approach? And what is their current vision, mission and values? And how do they align with the commitments and, you know, is there an as we go through different phases of our life or career, you know, something that might have been important when someone who started a company might be different now, and, and just kind of having this moment of reflection to say, okay, you know, here's where I am today, here's what's going to be important for me moving ahead. And then to repeat that process with the executive team so that ultimately, you end up with this really highly cohesive and effective leadership group, I'm going to put a lot of focus on robust internal operations in phase three. And really, what that is, is that we want our employees to be successful on the essential work that they carry out organizational wide, and make sure our customers are cared for that we care for each other, that both internal and external stakeholders as well. And then phase four is to develop what you know, is an employee centric workforce, where each member of the team, the organization as a whole can move towards reaching their full human potential. I have been at so many organizations where we just use a fraction of what people can bring to the table. And I've seen so many examples where when, when organization leadership starts to utilize employees in this manner, they find out that they have so much more capability than ever dream that they would have. And then five is, is going in and in determining what's going to be our place and in our community, what what's the impact that we can have to create a positive opportunity to help create a thriving community ecosystem for us. And so examples of that could be maybe we hire people on the autism spectrum that 80 85% are unemployed, but yet they have tremendous talent that could be utilized in different things like that, that, you know, instead of using up resources and leaving an abandoned factory behind, we're actually somebody that's committed to creating thriving with those that are part of the community in which we live. And then six is taking all this knowledge and then working through developing a strategy and then working through the tactical plans and then all of the change management plans that are required to that. And it's been kind of my experience, a lot of people can't, or I shouldn't say can they just, they don't walk through that in a really Strong logical process that, you know, you have books on leadership, you have books on change management and so forth. But part of why I wrote this book was to say, Okay, here's where you are today, status quo, here's where you might want to be five years from now. And this is what I see is the steps or the phases to help accomplish that role.
Greg Voisen
Well, it's a great, it gives people a great opportunity to kind of think of this as a model, and all those phases. And you can see how they all interplay with one another the way you explained them. So thank you for doing that. You know, in phase two, because we're gonna get into a little bit deeper here. You focus on leadership development, and how do leaders embrace I'm going to hopefully I don't mispronounces the Ubuntu philosophy, which is, and the why is it so important to shifting the entire culture to this? First explain the word and the origin of the word if I mispronounced it, read pronounce it. And then how do you get this entire cultural shift?
Dr. Joe Sprangel
Yeah, well, and I may pronounce it wrong, as well. But I'm going to philosophy. It's an African belief that we are selfhood to others didn't, you know, no one man or woman is an island and kind of, you know, right now we have kind of this new generation. And, you know, it just kind of goes counter to what I think is a good organizational culture. And wammy flippin Jr, was an advocate for justice, that communism and grassroots organization, where he saw it as a deeply personal philosophy that calls on us to mirror humanity to each other. And ultimately means that we're treating each other with openness, personal dignity, unquestioning cooperation, warmth, and with a participation and win, we all want to work in that sort of environment, right. And so bob chapman is one of the people that I profiled in the book and he moved his organization, Barry Wehmiller, from what they called a we centric organization into a I'm sorry, me centric organization into a we centric one where they treat everybody like family, they, they realize that the better they treat their employees and more productive they are, the employees are also going to have a better life, when they leave that place, because they're not going to go home angry, frustrated, and tired, you know, feeling like they've been abused all day. And so it really is just shifting to, you know, we're all in this together, we should be doing this in a manner that helps one another that lifts everybody up. And, you know, it's kind of organization I'd like to work in. And I know, I've worked at my best when I have that sort of situation going?
Greg Voisen
Well, it's refreshing to see that organizations, whether manufacturing or not, are embracing these shifts in consciousness associated to have a better work environment, because they realize that the people that are working in him, as we've evolved as a species in society, aren't willing to accept the old ways we used to work, which was command and control. And, you know, I've I know, Daniel Goldman has not been on our show, but everybody knows emotional intelligence from Daniel Goleman. And, you know, you talk about it in the book, and you say that, that leaders with greater ei emotional intelligence, and are that they're, they're better at leading, right? They're better at leading, what are some of the other benefits that we get from people that are more emotionally intelligent leaders? Other than just the fact that, Hey, there, I know, I just did one on experiential intelligence. Right. And it was a podcast that was done. And it was fascinating, because you just said two minutes ago, you don't even know the people you're working with and what they bring to the workplace. And they bring all these series of experiences in life that can really help the organization evolve. And certain elements of it evolve. And I want to talk about emotional intelligence. But I think that whole experiential intelligence thing, it's another whole factor that's important. Yeah.
Dr. Joe Sprangel
So you know, a lot of the benefits that come out of being more emotionally intelligent is that we can be more empathetic during difficult conversations that are inevitable when you're when you're going through a change process that helps us to manage our emotions and those of our coworkers in particular during stressful and overwhelming situation. People always wondered how I could stay so calm while I probably wasn't completely calm and you inside, but I realized that you know that it's a leader of the organization runs around like a chicken with his head cut off, everybody's going to start doing that that's not going to get anybody anywhere. It's also helpful in resolving conflict resolution, because if people understand that we are empathetic, they might be more willing to open up to us and helps us to motivate and coach our workforce increases employee collaboration, potential, and psychological safety. And it's so important if you want to make the kind of change we're talking about becomes more likely, in this type of environment. And ultimately, if we understand the emotions that precede thought, it's critical to help ourselves and others to improve themselves. And we're more likely to do achieve more tremendous success in our personal and professional lives, if we are led and can develop stronger emotional intelligence crossed organization.
Greg Voisen
Yeah, I really love that. That terminology and the work that Goleman did around emotional intelligence, and I always look at it. I know if we're going to heal this world and heal our businesses and heal society. In general, that's gonna happen as a result of people becoming more compassionate with one another. If we all could learn and people are gonna say, well, you're talking about the Dalai Lama. Yeah, the Dalai Lama talks about being more compassionate overall. Right. But the reality is, that's the truth. I mean, you and I, on a previous call, talked about Herb Kelleher and Southwest Airlines, and his whole love thing, right. And well, most businesses don't want to mention the word love in it. So if you're not going to work, mention the word love and it because you think it's too woo woo, then you better be thinking about how emotionally intelligent your leaders are, and how compassionate those leaders can be to listen and understand the needs of the people are working for you. So you don't have turnover, as a result of, you know, having somebody who doesn't understand those things. And you we've all heard of this, you and I were just speaking about Simon Sinek before we got on the call. And it's the whole why thing the mission, vision values purpose, the why of our business, why do we exist? Why does this business do what it does? Can you give some examples of manufacturing and manufacturing businesses that have successfully shifted their culture by focusing on the why the why they have existed? Now, we did talk a little bit about your Vancian are just a minute ago, but there are others besides Yvon Chouinard. I remember Zappos shoes. He's no longer with us. He died in a fire in a home. But Tony was really big on the why of why Zappos existed, which is why, who the hell whatever thought we would have bought a pair of shoes off the internet, right? Yeah. But that's a good example. Tell us some others though, Joe.
Dr. Joe Sprangel
Okay. Yeah, one of one of the wonderful gifts that I had while I was writing this book was a man named Fred Keller, who's the founder and chairman of Cascade engineering in Grand Rapids, Michigan. You know, he said he was a child of the 60s looking to live up to the principles of having a business that work for everyone. And so, is, as I went through this process, I would, you know, I ran the phases by him, I ran the initial draft of the book and so forth. And what really resonated well for me is that he said, hey, you know, yeah, I mean, you, you got this is what I was doing as I was developing my organization. And so, some of the things that they have done is that, you know, anti-racism was important to them. They, they implemented Diversity, Equity and Inclusion long before it became a recent emphasis to be Colette, you know, a politically correct standard practice. You know, they, they're one of the largest speakers in the world. They had a program called Be nice. I think they still do, I should say, and they're committed to mental health assistance to their employees and families through four step action plan. They hire people that are what they call returning citizens, somebody that's done previous time for being incarcerated for you know, some sort of mistake that they made. I don't know about you, but you know, I've made mistakes in my life where probably I could have ended up in prison. Thankfully, it didn't. But imagine only you know, being judged on the miss the one maybe the one significant mistake you made that you can't find work after that. They found that hey, we get great employees by allowing this opportunity. They're definitely veteran friendly. They've committed to helping People transition out of their military career into manufacturing industry. And then they have a program called welfare to career where they look at what can they do to help move people out of, you know, a poverty situation into a meaningful career. We often in our society, we give people enough to get by. And then if boy, if they want to make a difference in their lives, then we cut them off and they can't bridge that gap between, okay, I want to get off assistance, but I can't afford to get to work because I don't have a car and so forth. Well, they put programs in place to help people to be able to get to that job and to eventually get to a point where, okay, now, I'm, I'm okay, I'm over the other side of that bridge, and I can move forward.
Greg Voisen
Great company, for women
Dr. Joe Sprangel
and so forth.
Greg Voisen
Yeah, it looks like they looked at everything, right. They, he really did a good job of it. It reminds me of an interview that occurred quite some time ago. But if you've not heard of this company, and in Michigan, called Zingerman's Deli, Ari, Ari Weinzweig, right, Weinzweig, and I'm gonna let all of my listeners know, because I think it's a perfect example in one of our podcasts because I did too with him, that I learned so much about how he shifted the culture of what would normally be just a normal deli, right. But it turned it into a multimillion dollar operation, and then books about his management style and philosophy. That's another great example of how you have good emotional intelligence, how you use your why and your purpose, to get your people behind you so that things coalesce into something wonderful, right? So you know, you say in phase three of your six phases, you talked about building overall operations? And I don't want to miss out on this because operations are operations on an assembly line and their operations inside. Anywhere in a company. What does it mean? And how do companies build an effective business operating system? You call it a bo s? I remember the guy that's, he's got the EOS entrepreneur operating system. But what is the bo S?
Dr. Joe Sprangel
Well, I don't think I've coined a new term there. But for me, it kind of brings to mind Dr. W. Edwards, Deming and his 14 points of management, in a particular quote that resonated with me is that a bad system will beat a good person every time. And I've experienced that I, you know, I've been in places where, you know, it seemed like the proverbial three ring circus where you'll be the next person, the owner fires because you couldn't turn water into wine or turn a sow's ear into a silk purse. And, you know, what, what happens is that they don't put a really strong robust system in place, like in the Toyota Production System, some known as lean manufacturing, where they don't attribute failures to breakdowns and individuals or the fault of an individual, they attributed to a breakdown in the process. And if you don't have strong robust processes, then you can't do the things that ultimately delight your customers and allow you to carry out what is important for you as an organization. And so for me, it's kind of a combination of the B impact assessment by B Lab, the UN Sustainable Development Goals, Demings principles and the Toyota Production System. And it's gonna be a little different for every organization. But to me, it's kind of bringing those different elements together in a way that allows us as an organization to carry out our business in the most efficient and effective manner.
Greg Voisen
Yeah, the Toyota, I was sent a couple of books by a gentleman who their company was chosen by Toyota to actually win an award for the processing. And I had the pleasure of meeting him he was in Denver, and as a huge window manufacturing company. And Toyota chose to work with them, which I thought was kind of interesting, because I didn't even know they did that. But, you know, my listeners, probably of all listeners are, if they are there, they're familiar with the betterment Corporation, the B Corp. And in manufacturing, what impact would you say this B impact assessment would have on overall labor operations? And what shifts are you seeing in organizations focused on social and environmental impact that they have on the world because, you know, to get a betterment corporation, you just can't go out and get the designation you first have to start off it. I think you have to be in this in this a year, at least two years to actually get that certification or to actually apply as a betterment company, but there are a lot of Betterment companies out there, what do you see happening on the manufacturing side and the non-manufacturing side?
Dr. Joe Sprangel
Yeah. So cascade engineering is the largest B Corp in the world are one of them, I shouldn't say not the largest but and a lot of what I see in that movement is led me to one really critical conclusion. And when you combine this, for profit and nonprofit, the best of each together, you end up with it with a, some are calling the for benefit sector, that it's really an attractive employment option for Gen Z, and our younger millennial groups, and even old guys like me, you know, which company still wants to make a profit, but they're doing it with an environmental or social purpose. And so Shannara, they were one of the first people to lined up to be a certified B Corp. And, you know, they, they, in essence, what we're trying to do is do well while doing good, and so you know, somebody who works for a company, you making industry wages, as opposed to what sometimes are lesser in the nonprofit world. But it really excites people, because they're doing something that for whatever purpose that they have, they're, they're helping someone, you know, every day and the work that they do, each day that they're employed. And an example of this is I had a great opportunity to spend some time in a company called Impact makers. And Michael Braun states that, you know, they're kind of the IT and management consulting business, that's b2b version of Newman's Own, where they put all their profits towards charitable organizations. And while they're not manufacturing, what it found in the recurring theme of the interviews with these people that were the various stakeholders, so employees management team, their, their customers, their board members, and so forth, was just this great pride in the work that they were doing, because they knew they were helping the community. And so they had this really defined why, and it allowed them to, to be able to say, okay, you know, we're not just saying we're doing this, we actually have verification that we are the type of company that's making a difference in the community where we operate.
Greg Voisen
And I see more and more people, even smaller businesses headed that way, Joe, they're, they're really realizing I don't, you know, you can't blame this on COVID. But a lot of people said COVID was kind of a, this jolt that many people and many organizations needed to really understand this. And I would agree, it was one of the jolts, but I think it had been leading up to it, there had been so many changes in our world that created it, and it just an optimal opportunity to embrace it. And, you know, you talk about Cradle to Cradle design, and the specific impacts that this innovation has on manufacturing. Also, could you give the listeners, some examples of organizations that are really doing a good job in Cradle to Cradle design, that's having a reduced impact on the environment. I know for a fact that, you know, I look at Apple and I say, okay, apples got a great return policy, where does all that go. So you know, I turn in a computer does an end over in Taiwan, and somebody rips out all the chips and the component parts to re manufacture another iPad or iPhone or something. But, you know, this whole Cradle to Cradle design thing is so important. When you look at packaging, when you look at everything, and everybody's focused on packaging. And I'm like, well, yeah, you're focused on packaging. But what about the frickin product that comes in the package? Where's that go afterwards?
Dr. Joe Sprangel
Yeah. Yeah, this cradle to cradle design is the shift from linear consumption where we just use something and then we trash it. You know, I think in six months, we would suppose of most everything we purchase very, there's very few things that lasts, you know, beyond that six months cycle, and Cradle to Cradle design. They're looking at things like a biological cycle or a technological cycle. The biological designs are things that are naturally biodegradable like the I don't know if you remember the Sun Chips bag for many years ago, it was compostable. They thought it was gonna be a great idea. It wasn't well received because it made a lot of noise, but technical designs reutilize chemical was metals and oil based materials that are reused and recycled in a closed system until an example of this is interface, who's again, one of the companies that I profiled, they actually receive all of their US carpet back that people are willing to send.
Greg Voisen
Anderson was a leader in that he Oh, yeah, he's,
Dr. Joe Sprangel
he's kind of became my, I don't know how many heroes but Ray Anderson is one of them.
Greg Voisen
Ray Anderson really was to so many people. I mean, he was phenomenal. And when I worked with Larry, Larry Wilson at Wilson learning, we always use the Randerson story around how he recycled the backs of carpeting and the fibers in the carpeting, right. And, you know, for that time, because I'm going back 1520 years, that was really monumental, kind of thing to do. You just end up in the dump, right and bury it in the ground.
Dr. Joe Sprangel
A lot of this started in the mid-90s, when most people didn't even know what sustainability was. Right. Definitely a pioneer. Yeah. But they're now a third party carbon neutral enterprise. So you know, that they're neutralized their carbon impact across their operations across all avenues of their business, and even throughout their value chain. And now they're working on being regenerative organization where they, you know, their factory will positively contribute to a forest, for example, using biomimicry design, and h2 green steel is another example. And Bowden, which is in northern Sweden. They're a company that's working to produce screen steel that reduce the co2 emissions by up to 95%. But when compared to traditional steelmaking, so water and heat become their primary missions by replacing coal with green hydrogen, for example, instead of fossil fuel, electricity, so they're just a couple of many examples of companies,
Greg Voisen
how many? How many? Would you say, Joe, because you're you got your finger on the pulse here. You know, usually, when you get in government involved in this to create legislation that forces somebody to do something, it's taken them a long time to actually change their ways. Do you see many of these people now willing to shift their ways without compliance to some rule from the EPA or some other governmental body organization that saying, hey, you've got to go here, or they finally realize that they're losing consumers, because they're manufacturing a certain way? And we have more people that are environmentally sensitive and want to buy products like that? I mean, what would you say overall is going on? Because it just seems so challenging to get your head around?
Dr. Joe Sprangel
Yeah, sadly, it's still not the norm. You know, there are these leading exemplars that have started to implement this into their manufacturing operations. Part of it, you know, in the book, I talk about a lot of different challenges that companies face. And, you know, I've been in so many companies where, I mean, they just were doing everything they could to survive from one day that an X, maybe they don't have good cash flow, and so on and so forth. But smart companies start to figure out, well, what can I do to save a little money here and then put some of that aside, and then you know, it's talked about in the book about eating that elephant, right? You got to eat it one bite at a time. You can't go from where I'm at today to being holy, sustainable overnight. It's gonna take time takes money takes effort, and, but it's certainly possible. These are all companies that that are examples that show that yeah, you can you can accomplish this if you want to. And is there I
Greg Voisen
mean, without investing billions into retooling the whole manufacturing plant. I mean, an example you just said was reutilizing. Let's just say the cutting oil from a machines an actual machine that's uh, uh, see, what do they call them CDC machines he CNC. So out here in California, I worked with a lot of people that were at CNC machines, and you'd see all that cutting oil going back through there, and they're making bolts and they're making things for aircraft and they're making, you know, whatever it is that they're making, right. But is that an example just let's take that one little example of things that people can actually use and recycle pretty effectively before they dump it down the drain or they have some environmental agencies come and pick it up and a 55 gallon drum and haul it off somewhere because none of us really knows where hospital waste goes. None of us really knows where CDC machine ink stuff goes. The average person listening out there doesn't have a clue. And I would probably be one of them because I know that there are huge companies, Joe, that make huge sums of money, just picking up hospital waste, right? Well, where the hell does all that go? You got all these parts you've cut out of people and stuff and skin and blood and all this stuff? And it's like, are you guys just incinerating that? I don't know.
Dr. Joe Sprangel
Yeah, so you touched on definitely an example of something that could be a small initiative, right, you can figure out ways to filter that, that coolant, so that you can reuse it cutting oil. Or you just figure out ways to reduce the amount of water that you consume, or you figure out a way to recycle the water so that you're buying less from the system. It can be as simple as changing out light bulbs, I mean, many companies that I go into these days, they still have old light bulbs in them that are very energy consuming. And generally, in a very short period of time, a few lights here and there, it starts to add up to some pretty good savings.
Greg Voisen
Well, I love to see Walmart, when they came in, started putting solar panels on the roofs, and then opening up their stores with more lighting. And, you know, I've seen plenty of these examples. That just doesn't seem fast enough, soon enough, you know, but I get it, that it's very expensive to do. But it seems like most of them made a creed or a motto, or I should say, agree that they are going to start down this path. And you're starting to see some shifts in the way in which they operate. And I think, you know, I commend people like Amazon, for instance, saying, Hey, we're gonna replace our whole fleet with electric vehicles. Well, I mean, there's, there's some doomsayers out there that will say, Well, hey, you still gotta generate that power somehow? Is it being generated from coal burning plants? I mean, you can, it's, it's whoever is looking at the Cradle to Cradle design that says, hey, really, how much more energy efficient? Is this going to be? Is it going to save? How much in gasoline and resources versus what it's going to consume in electricity? And I'm all for all of that. But I don't think sometimes I think the decisions are made a little bit hastily, because it does get a little greenwashed. It's like, electric vehicles, right? You know, well, is that really better or not? And I'm not saying I'm disagreeing with electric vehicles, I'm just saying, it's a great thing. But I don't think they really look at everything.
Dr. Joe Sprangel
It kind of reminds me everybody was up in arms in New York City, because the horse manure was piling up. So you know, the solution was the automobile. The automobile brought some other problems. Were there, right. And I feel like we're gonna have some of the same impact with electric vehicles, because all of a sudden, now we need all this battery production. What are we going to do all these use batteries? Where are
Greg Voisen
we getting all this lithium? You know, there's, there's kind of a theory about Putin's war that Ukraine has a ton of lithium, and that's what he was. Hands on. So, you know, I just, I don't know what to think anymore. I just kind of let my listeners know, this is kind of some of the stuff you should be talking about. Right? So to wrap this show up, you got a great website, I want to let the listeners know it's a manual, strategic sustainability.com. That's Emmanuel, STR, A T E, G, I see sustainability, as US ti n a big ol it why.com. There's some free resources there. Can you mention the resources? And what would you like to leave the listeners with relative developing a more humanistic way to lead, develop and foster associates and teams within organizations that are being led? More humanistically? Okay.
Dr. Joe Sprangel
So yeah, on the website, there's various podcasts, and others that have done and a couple of TED talks that I did on kind of reinventing industrial, manufacturing, industrial complex and, and one on humanist manufacturing. There's, you can also find a graphic of the six phases, more detail. We actually didn't touch on the humanist commitments. But you can find more detail about what the 10 humanist commitments are that I based the book on. And then, if compelled, I encourage people to look at the webpage that talks about my book and I've looked at people buy a copy, see what they can do to implement any or all of it that is not an all or nothing sort of fingers. There's lots of different good suggestions in the book. And ultimately, I'd be happy to help organizations if they want to make this transition.
Greg Voisen
Well, I think importantly, they can just reach out to you there's an email and their contact form at your website to they can reach out and contact You, here's the book, it's not expensive. go to Amazon pick up a copy of this book. Joe is available to you to speak about some of the things we've talked about or even more, I think the challenge that we face today is a lot of people like, where do you start. And what I would say is Joe would be a great place to start to have a discussion, he, he's not going to charge you for the first discussion, to just talk with him, and say, These are my concerns, these are my current values, this is what I'm trying to do, this is what I want to do. And he's going to be able to guide you and give you some more resources. And who knows, maybe you're going to hire him to consult you to do what you need to do. But Joe, it's been a pleasure having you and I inside personal growth. I think this journey for managers and leaders is about the personal growth of being more humanistic. That whole personal growth thing means you have to embrace emotional intelligence, you have to embrace more compassion with your employees, you have to look at ways to have the values and mission and purpose of the business align with the values and missions of the individuals, they have to feel proud of what they're producing at the end what comes off the assembly line, and know that what they're doing is good, and they're contributing something good to society. All of these things lead up and culminate into an organization which is humanistic. And Joe, thanks for being on inside personal growth and sharing some of that, thanks to my listeners for hanging in and hearing the podcast any last words?
Dr. Joe Sprangel
Just, I don't care how technological we get, we're always going to need the human element. And the better we treat humans, the more we tap into that enormous pool of wasted potential, the better off we're all going to be. And that's the key thing I hope people take from this.
Greg Voisen
Inspiring Joe, thanks for your time. Thanks for talking about humanistic manufacturing and associated topics.
Dr. Joe Sprangel
Thank you, Greg. It was a pleasure.
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Inside Personal Growth with Greg Voisen · Podcast 996: STFU with Dan LyonsMy guest for this episode is New York Times bestselling author, Dan Lyons. Dan is the man behind Disrupted, Lab Rats, and the newly released STFU: The Power of Keeping Your Mouth Shut in an Endlessly Noisy World.
Aside from being an author, Dan spent two seasons writing for HBO’s hit comedy series, Silicon Valley. He also worked as a journalist, writing about technology at Forbes, Fortune and Newsweek, and contributing articles to the New York Times, Wired, and other publications.
As mentioned, Dan just released an addition to his masterpieces entitled STFU: The Power of Keeping Your Mouth Shut in an Endlessly Noisy World. This book will take us on a sharp, funny, fascinating deep dive through our incessant noise-making and will make us understand the science and culture behind why we can’t stop talking, and how ultimately we can learn to speak less – and with more intention – to improve our lives.
If you’re interested and want to know more about Dan, you may click here to visit his website.
I hope you enjoy my engaging interview with Dan Lyons. Happy listening!
You may also refer to the transcripts below for the full transciption (not edited) of the interview.
Interview Transcipt -Not EditedEmailDownloadNew TabGreg Voisen
Well, welcome back to Inside Personal Growth. This is Greg Voisen, the host of Inside Personal Growth. And Dan, my listeners know me but they don't know you. And I always like to let them know a little bit about you. Good day to you. Where are you joining us from?
Dan Lyons
I'm, I'm in Boston.
Greg Voisen
Boston. Okay. So is Sudbury, like a little suburb of Boston?
Dan Lyons
Yeah, we're about 40 minutes west of the city, almost directly straight West from Boston.
Greg Voisen
Okay, well, cool. I'm gonna let my listeners know a little bit about you. Dan Lyons is a New York Times bestselling author as well as the screenwriter and journalist. His latest book, Shut the Blank Up. We can say it because we're on a podcast Shut the Fuck Up: The Power of Keeping Your Mouth Shut in an Endlessly Noisy World. Dan's memoir disrupted by misadventure in a startup bubble tells the story of two years he spent working in a cult like software startup and became an instant hit. That was a previous book. Dan followed it up with another book called Lab Rats: How Silicon Valley Made Work Miserable For the Rest of Us, a critique of Silicon Valley corporate culture. Dan's a writer on HBO was writer on HBO has had commie comedy Silicon Valley, and has worked as a technology journalist at Forbes, fortune and Newsweek. He has contributed articles in New York time, wired and other publications. He has been featured in New York Times, Wall Street Journal, The Economist, The Guardian, NPR, and BBC. So quite the track record in history pleasure having you on and honored to have you on to speak about your book, shut the fuck up the power of keeping your mouth shut, and then individually not noisy world. So Dan, I gave the littered the listeners really a background about, you know, your ability as a writer and somebody who's got a history. But there's more to this book than just that. There's a lot more to it than that. Can you tell the listeners why you wrote the book? And what were you going through personally, that you learned that S T Fu? I'm just gonna say it that way. It transformed your life. Yeah. Because this is a this is another kind of memoir actually do a certain
Dan Lyons
kind of is there's a thread of memoir through the book. And then there's a lot of research is kind of Yes. doing two things at once. And yeah, it began in a way, it's a very personal story of me realizing, right, in the early days of the COVID, lockdown, so and they would that have been the early months of well,
Greg Voisen
march, march two, or I'm sorry, 2020 20, March 2020. Yeah.
Dan Lyons
And a few months before that my marriage had encountered some problems. And we had separated, I was living in a rented house near my family. And I had had some sort of setbacks, professionally. And I was having a conversation with a friend of mine on text and complaining about one thing, and I can't remember what it was, but something that had, I was angry at how things had worked out, and then had to admit that, well, if I hadn't said that one thing, then none of the rest could have happened. And I think I texted, you know, I need to learn how to SDSU. And the other person said, well, that's, you know, that might be a good topic for a book. And I said, Yeah, you know, it's kind of a funny title. Right, you know, SDSU. And I think at first I was thinking it might be kind of a funny book more than anything else. And then. But then I realized, like, no, no, no, I, in a way, everything I'm going through right now, was caused by lack of impulse control on my part, and boy, I wonder if I could if I can make my life better by doing this. And then I started out with two questions. One is Why do some people talk more than others? Why are some people compulsive talkers? And the other is how can you fix it? And the first question was easy enough to find some research and get through that. The second one was funny because we have you know, this 1000s of books that will teach you how to be a public speaker and this coaches is classes you can take, but nobody ever teaches a class and how to not talk and how to shut up. And so I kind of thought, wow, I have to figure this out for myself. And yeah, then it became kind of a journey of do A lot of research and interviewing experts, and end up learning way more about speech than I ever thought I would ever know. And finding out that it wasn't just a way to avoid calamities, which is what I originally set out to do. And found out that in many ways, and not just for over talkers, but for anyone, knowing how to talk less, at least strategically or tactically, can enable you to gain advantages in pretty much like pretty much every aspect of your life. It's amazing, but the research is out there
Greg Voisen
it is in your book shows up does a good job of giving the facts and the research, an excellent job. I mean, I was blown away by some of the things that I read. So you know, you mentioned that learning to STF, you will change your life. And obviously, as for yourself, you stated it'll make you smarter, or likeable, more creative and more powerful. What do you believe happened to your own psyche, when you learn to listen more and only speak, when you had something to say that was meaningful, you had cited at a couple of points in here, we'll talk about him in a minute. But people like Tim Cook, and Jack Dorsey and Richard Branson. And, you know, Steve Jobs, there's a bunch of them that really were and are a lot more silence. And people are a little bit uncomfortable with silence.
Dan Lyons
Yeah, silence is very hard for people to tolerate. There's a study that gets cited a lot that says, it only takes about four seconds of silence in a conversation for people to start feeling a little bit of discomfort. So it doesn't take much. And yet, it's also very, very powerful, both in terms of in many different ways. That the one can be that you're just showing respect to the other person, they said something and you're sitting and really, you're thinking about not just firing back. But there's also a lot of material out there about how silence is really great in negotiations, it can actually give you a leg up if you can learn to sit with that discomfort, it can actually help you prevail in a negotiation or do better in a negotiation. But I would say yeah, it this really did change my life. So for example, by the time Well, before I finished the book, I was my wife and I had got back together, my relationship with my daughter was much, much stronger. Those were the biggest things to me were Yes, it can help you in your career and negotiation to buy a car but, but to me, it was wow, that it can make you a better parent, a better partner, and maybe just a better person. And then the really, really big revelation was, it's not just about what you get out of it, it's that you can also make the lives of the people around you better. So it has this very powerful effect, you know, on everyone around you, which that that's what I find amazing. And I know, your podcast is about personal transformation or Yeah,
Greg Voisen
right. Yes, personal transformation, wellness. This actually, this actually can heal you. You know, I read it as something that, you know, you mentioned you were an endless talker before and you'd go to meetings, and you just talk to talk and try and meet all these people and everything. And you know, I kind of was that way too. And also at the same time uncomfortable with it. I had to force myself to kind of do it right. And I think from what I read between the lines, it seemed like it might have even been that way for you. But here's where I got a statistic which just blew my mind you put in the book, you mentioned that annually, Americans sit through over a billion meetings, that only 11% of them are productive. Okay, you cite some of the most successful people like Tim Cook, Jack Dorsey, Richard Branson, take painfully long pauses when they speak, and that their words are carefully chosen. I have been with a lot of people like that and it is much more interesting to be with them. How do our listeners become more aware of how much they're speaking versus listening? And what are the five ways that you mentioned in the book to STF you?
Dan Lyons
Great. The five ways that I came up with and I don't know if this is the big On end all this, but it's five that work for me, are as follows that number one is called when possible, say nothing. When it's almost like a game, I'll play with myself. And you know, strictly speaking, it's always possible to say nothing. But I mean, in situations where I'm at the checkout counter, and I might sort of tend to go like, so how are they going to strike up a conversation, I just don't just, you know, have the transaction. Thank you. Bye. And, and I've tried to practice that, and especially in low pressure situations like that. So you can develop the habit. The next one I have is called Master the power of the pause, which was sort of talked about, but using pauses in conversation can be very powerful. Another really, very slow talker and deliberate thinker was Ruth Bader Ginsburg, she famously took long pauses. The third one I have is to quit social media. And I don't know if anybody can really quit completely, but to dial it way back. And I have a lot of strategies for ways to use social media without being exposed as much to the harm of it, or at least, I hope minimizing it. And my fourth thing was to seek out silence. One thing that really helped me as I was doing this, was to go find ways to spend time without a screen. Without doing anything, just doing nothing and being in silence. And one my favorite thing was I took up forest bathing, which is a really interesting practice. And the last, my last of the five is to become an active listener. When that you can actually do a whole book about listening. In fact, I've thought maybe I should do that next. It's so hard to be a good listener. And I spent time with listening coaches and people who are really good listeners. And I learned how to do it. I'm better than I used to be. But I still I still don't think I'm, I'm all the way there. Yeah,
Greg Voisen
you know, that, that, that forest bathing is interesting, because like, meditation or anything, the solitude, you know, frequently can get somebody of almost any age to think about their own finitude. So when they think about their finitude, they're actually able to kind of reflect on their life currently, as well. You know, what have I lived? What have I done? Good, what am I grateful for? And you start to kind of reflect on the positive, right? You're, you're doing that because, you know, there's a there's a finality to all of us, we just don't know when. And so the question becomes is, what are you doing every day? And I think that solitude, and that bathing in the trees is really an awesome thing that you did, I want to commend you on that. Now, if you would speak to listeners about talk a Holic scale, you found this scale somewhere, you didn't make it up that researchers created on how you scored on a talk a Holic scale. And I'm sure you rated when you first started off the wall. And how you tried to talk less, you found it challenging on speak with the listeners about some of the internal things you went through. And a bit about this, by the way, for my listeners, you can buy his book, which we're going to have a link on Amazon, and you can get to him at danlyons.io. That's lyons.io. But this, this is in the book for you to be able to take the test. How'd you score Dan, and how did you work through those challenges? It was
Dan Lyons
It was, it was, it was pretty disheartening. So the taco Holic scale I found because I thought I wonder if there's such a thing as a chocoholic early on, and I googled the word and sure enough, up came this this research that had been done in the 1990s by a husband and wife team of communication researchers at West Virginia University and Virginia Richmond and James McCroskey. McCroskey was this huge legend in in that field, and he had passed away but Virginia, Richmond was retired and living in West Virginia and I found her anyway, they decided they believe that there were some people who not just talk too much, but for whom talking was a problem like akin to an addiction and They created this test that is a self-scoring test that can determine whether you are taka Holic how extreme it is. So it's 16 questions, you self-score it, you can find it by the way, it's in the book. But it's also on the Time Magazine site with the article with the excerpt of my books that they ran, and I created a website, it's just a URL you can find, or you can go to my website and find a link to it. There's many paths to this, but it's very easy, it takes a couple minutes. And the lowest score you can get as 10 and the highest is 50. And I got a 50. And the fun thing is you can have someone else score you to just, you know, see if you're roughly accurate, and my wife gave me a 50 and said she wish he could give me a 60. I was very, very much an introvert and very quiet person. So imagine it's very annoying. So yeah, it's some I don't think it's rigorously scientific. But it's pretty good. A lot of people I know, have taken it and
Greg Voisen
felt this accurate, where they are. Yeah, it's accurate. Yeah, it, you know, look for my listeners, please do you know, we'll put a link to that Times magazine article. What we're speaking about today, and hopefully, we're having a dialogue about not just talking to one another is how you can listen more and talk less. And you state that talkers over talkers are universally hated. Each language has different words to describe these talkers. And you had you put a whole list of different things you use, and they're using to describe. Sometimes I remember diarrhea mouth used to be one that we used here in the United States. Can you speak about the six categories of over talkers? And how anxiety has exacerbated the over talking situation in our society today? Yeah.
Dan Lyons
First of all, I did find it really fun to look up all the words, I didn't look at I called friends of mine, who are from different countries and ask them what do they call, you know, someone who's annoying, who talks too much in your country. And we have some great ones from a friend of mine in Italy, and then all over the world. And it turns it right. And all over the world, there are terms and they're always really kind of, you know, you wouldn't want to be called it. And yeah, I sort of, again, this is not any kind of scientific definition of over talkers. But I identified several one or I would like all ego talkers, who are people generally men, often well to do, who really just have big egos and believe that their thoughts are more important than everybody else. And so they know more than, than everybody, so they should just eat up all the oxygen. Yeah, you know, we've all met that guy, you know, and they're nervous talkers, who, you know, they're just nervous people, when they get nervous, it is more situational, as blurs who tend to be, I think, very, very bright, and very quick witted, you'd be made great comedy writers, and, but they don't have a filter. And they don't read the room sometimes and blurt something out because it's just funny to them. And there are blabbers who just keep going, he's just like what you call a motor mouth, they tell the same stories over and over, you know, the and they know that they've told it before, and they still tell it anyway. There are people I call room inators, who are more, they just like to think out loud, they may be kind of talking to you, but they're not really talking to you. They just are trying to process something out loud and you happen to be there, you're like a foil for them. And then talk a holics who are sort of defined by easiest way to think of it is people who will say something, even when they know that what they're about to say will hurt them. And they still say it or know that if they said nothing, it would be very much in their interest. And they still say it, they can't resist that impulse.
Greg Voisen
They kind of have to let you know what they know. I remember many years ago, I had a manager who was not only a Dale Carnegie's sales instructor and taught the course, but we I used to work in an office where there was one gentleman in particular, and he would say, Don, I asked you for the time I didn't ask you how to make the watch. Because what would happen is the guy would go into like literally this all day ahead about what It is, it's like, dude, no, all I asked for was the time, I didn't want to know how you made the watch, that's a very good way of putting it, it was it was an excellent way of putting it because there are a lot of people will tell you how to make a watch. And you know, all you want to know is the time. So look, you speak about the media pollution. And we're gonna get into this and the incredible amounts of noise. And I paraphrase this because really, in the book, you go into this in quite a depth that we're subjected to through our digital devices. And interestingly enough, Dan, my son, and I created a course called Nevermind the noise thriving in a world of ever increasing complexity. Oh, wow, we taught that course, to people in the logistics field, and all over the United States. And part of our course was to get people to meditate, because most of them never had for like 15 minutes. And I remember going to these conferences, and we were like a breakout session. And to make a long story short, we ended up people were talking about us. And for three days, our room was full. It was jammed full of people wanting the silence wanting the salience wanting time to be with themselves and think about their own thoughts. So in this media, this this these digital devices, you state, we need to s ITF Oh, shut it the blank off. I would agree with you. And in your estimation, what do you believe all this noise and distraction is doing to us emotionally, mentally and spiritually?
Dan Lyons
Spiritually is an interesting aspect. But we'll hold off on that, I think there's, we're in an age of agitation, that a lot of the things that we deal with everyday that also are very useful. So we're using our laptops now. And they're terrific, right, and we're using Zoom is terrific. But also can cause us to be very agitated and to be overwhelmed. I think there's just so much information coming at us from so many places, that our and our brains aren't really ready to handle that if you think even, even 20 years ago, the internet, there wasn't that much on the internet. And there's no streaming, there's a lot of things that exist today. So you think in 20 years, quite a lot has changed in terms of how much information is accessible to us. And it's accessible all the time, because we carry that phone with us everywhere we go.
Greg Voisen
And now we are now Dan, we've got chat CBT. So literally, we've got an AI device. So they were talking to the CEO of Microsoft last night, on 60 minutes about the mistakes that surely made when it first came out because it was saying things and trying to do things right. And you know, you think about this, we've you and I have lived through an air of you know, I go back to the day when there was no cell phone, I assure you do we use faxes. And there was a palm pilot was the first thing we used to like trade names back and forth on a palm pilot. But it was very rudimentary in nature, right? And now we've accelerated to these devices, which literally within, you know, they are more powerful than, you know, even our computers, many of our computers, right? So I get that we're a polluted this is it's a pollution. But it's almost a necessity to operate in the world we're operating in. But at the same time, how do people kind of turn it off, shut it off. And I guess the most important thing is, you know, I see people walking down the street running into me, because they got their head down. And I call it down head syndrome. And I'm gonna say this. Yeah, I'm gonna say this, because there's waiting for something to happen through this device, that is never gonna happen. It's like anticipation. Like, God, the next email is gonna, you know, free me from whatever it is that I was thinking. And it's like, the addiction is crazy.
Dan Lyons
And that, yeah, there are numbers. And there, you see different numbers out there. I can't remember which ones I use in the book, but the number of times a day that you pick up your phone and look. Yeah, and there, you know, hundreds, right? And how many times you check an app, cetera, et cetera. And you're right though, the tricky thing is that we, we do need these things and they are really good. It's the same with social media. There are aspects of it that are great. It's you can't just say the whole thing is bad, right? That also makes it more difficult to use them in moderation. It'd be easier if you could just say He's not ever gonna have a phone anymore, right? In a way that discipline, but it's hard to use it. But in moderation, but you, you're doing the same thing. Right? So you I'm sure you? Um, well, I'd be interested to know, what do you do? Do you have? Do you force yourself to spend part of the day with no phone? Or away from a screen? How do you do it?
Greg Voisen
Well, I intentionally get away from this, what you and I are doing right now. The reason is, is because if I really wanted to, I could be on this probably every 30 minutes. Right now I'm talking to somebody else about something or whatever. And I think the proliferation of zoom or any of this stuff is, is challenging. But I think one is, when you set your intentions, that my day is going to be you know, whether you time block, or whatever you do is going to be 30 minutes of this and 45 minutes of that, and however you schedule it, and I'm going to get exercise, and I'm going to get outside and I will tell you, your tree merging, tree hugging whatever you want to call it. Nature. Nature is, to me the biggest solids I can have. Right? And so just to get outside, just go outside and enjoy whatever kind of weather you're having. I intentionally do try and do that. As much as possible every day. Do you really? Oh, yeah. Ever you
Dan Lyons
live someplace warm, don't
Greg Voisen
you? Yeah, but even if I didn't, I'm in. I'm in Southern California. But I think even people in Boston right now where maybe it's cold, but cold, to take 10 minutes and put your boots on and go walk outside and just walk around in snow and come back in. It's refreshing. You know, you feel like oh man, I breathe in the fresh air I'm you know, your whole mind shifts and the endorphins that are released through even let's say you've got to stay inside. So you're gonna go exercise and you get on your peloton bike or whatever it whatever it is, walk around the house, those kinds of things relieve you of the distraction of the devices. And you really start to realize that they're not that important. Yeah, you do. I mean, you asked me a question. I'm sorry.
Dan Lyons
I know that I find it. I find it difficult. I think if I lived in Southern California, I might be more inclined to go out honestly, I think. And I think you I think a big difference you have is sunshine. And I'm looking out my window now. And it's gray. And it's not particularly close in the 40s that we have snow on the ground. But yeah, I don't really want to go out and I feel like something about being a I spent time in in around Los Angeles and I, I like it. I like the weather. I like the sun. And even if I can go for a few days in the wintertime and come back, I feel like recharged. It's I think it's really important. But yeah, I agree that, you know, one, one blessing is we got a dog. He's 10 months old now. But we have to get him out every day. So it's a good thing because he forces you to go out and
Greg Voisen
this and I and I do that too. We do two walks a day. And when I asked my wife I said I wonder how much time we have I asked this morning actually on our take on how many hours a week do you think we spend just walking our dogs. And we both agreed that we're probably close to 15 hours a week. So just walking the dog around the neighborhood or taking them on a long walk. But now you said this a second ago and I want to repeat it because you mentioned to angry You said you comment in the book that that the internet is making us not just dumb but angry. You state that anger posts get shared more than happy ones. Why do you believe that people are angrier than in the past? And also if you would speak about the cortisol crisis because here comes the chemical releases in the brain by going outside. Cortisol versus oxy TOC toxin. What is it doing to us physically? And importantly, this Robert Lustig, the hacking of the American mind the science behind the corporate takeover of our bodies and our brains. So when you mentioned them, I went looked him up. And I went to Amazon and I read the whole preface about the book. And again, he is an MD speaking about what's actually going on with our bodies.
Dan Lyons
Yeah, right. Isn't that amazing? Like it well, that I think it's a chain reaction. So the social media companies, it's in their interest to make you angry because that makes you engaged. And so they do that by design. And then the anger you feel which and the longer you spend on social media, the more you get there, there's a study that shows over time, people's posts get more and more angry. Partly because you're conditioned by the machines to know Oh, that post got a lot of likes or shares or attention or comments, it just got engagement. I want to do that again. So then you have all this anger, and that, that causes cortisol. And then cortisol has these terrible physical effects. I think it's related to inflammatory diseases like heart disease, or car. So yeah, it's really physically bad. And again, I'm nothing close to an MD. But yeah, I cited Lustig and I think there's another doctor who's done some work in that space. And it also it actually impairs your, your ability to think your cognitive abilities. That's why this one guy says it makes you stupid. But it really, so you're really, actually impeding your ability to think clearly to think well, and your physical health. And you think about you know, what you're,
Greg Voisen
you gotta have the ability, because, you know, when you hack flow, like Steven Kotler says, You've got to get into an altered state of consciousness. And, yes, there's many ways to do that, you know, go jump on a trampoline, go, take a long hike, go get on your surfboard, go ride your bike, do whatever it might be. But all of those are releasing oxy toxins versus releasing cortisol. Cortisol is bad for your heart. It's bad for your overall system. But oxy toxin makes you more creative. It's, there are ways now that it really is kind of like, I want to say, the love hormone, it's really that release of that chemical in you, that is just the opposite of cortisol. And you want to have as much of that released as possible in your system. And you know, you're an interesting man, because you speak about your addiction to social media, and how you wean yourself off Tik Tok and Facebook. And, um, many of our my listeners out there probably have or have tried, that you began rolling your anxiety wheelbarrow backwards, you said, yeah, you state that the effects of stepping away from social media was not subtle. It was profound. I think that everybody out here would like to hear this. What did stepping away from all this social media affect you? Or how did it affect you? And what advice would you have to our, our listeners to help them claw back from the use of social media? And in the context of, hey, you say, shut the EFF up. That's, you know, when you let me preface this, because every time you get on your keyboard and your type, whether it's an angry comment, or unpleasant one or whatever, you're speaking, yeah, right, right. You're talking, it's your head thinking it up. And so in lieu of using words, that way, you're writing it out. So what would you what would you advise them?
Dan Lyons
Well, I would advise doing it in phases, you can go cold turkey, if you want. But for me, I sort of did a calculation and said, which websites Am I using? How much am I using each one? And then there's this, this trade off? How much am I getting from this, that's really good, how much benefit is it versus the cost of using it, and also, which one would be the most difficult to quit? The ones that I'm really, really attached to the most. So in my mind, I figured out Facebook for whatever reason was one that I had been on a long time, I did use quite a bit. And I thought, I'm really getting less and less out of this. And I'm just going to stop. And so the way I did it was first I removed the app from my phone. So if I wanted to go on Facebook, I had to go to my laptop and go to our browser, which is adds just a tiny bit of friction enough to make it a little harder. And then I would try to go for a day week. And once you've gone for about two weeks without looking at Facebook, you really don't miss it at all. Like it's just gone. And I don't even look at Facebook for a long time. I would look at it once a month. I didn't stop my account. But I would look at it once a month check in to see if anybody had written to me say an old friend from high school didn't know how to reach me any other way. Lately I started posting because the book is coming out and I wanted to kind of promote the book. But yeah, I really have no Oh, tug toward Facebook anymore. When my wife does, my wife uses it quite a bit. Tick tock was one where it's very addictive, super addictive. And it's from, from my perspective are all empty calories. I know there are people who actually get, you know, decent benefit from it, but I was just looking at junk. So one by one by one, I just went through them all. And then I also, I stayed on Twitter, although I now use it even less, but I created like, I thought I could think of it as read only mode. So yeah, never right.
Greg Voisen
Once you got over, you got over the FOMO. Right. And I hang out right. Yeah. And I think, you know, you come in the book fear. Right. And I think that is a big thing. People are so afraid that whatever is coming across these transits, the phones, the iPad, the computer, the whatever, that they're going to miss something. It always surprises me that they're going to miss something that they think is so important. Yeah. Myself included. I mean, I'm I fall into this game as well. But I do know, I think when you're aware of what it how you're being manipulated, you have a much better ability to understand that even though you answered all these emails, it isn't that important.
Dan Lyons
Yeah, that it didn't, didn't really matter. I mean, I tried to stay up with email, but I just find, yeah, with Twitter, I get less and less value from it. I think it was already in my from my perspective as a user becoming less valuable. And then since Elon Musk bought it, I don't know if it's, I think that the same I helped a lot of people leave, right, because I just find even more and more junk, and, and angry stuff, I find it I think used to be possible to have or to follow an interesting conversation with someone who's a subject matter expert, and you could watch a dialogue in the thread unfold and learn something and now everything becomes immediate name calling and I think I don't know if it's trolls or why it's become like that. But it actually makes me depressed that someone there might be something that could be an interesting conversation, but somebody's immune, I want to put for example, I wanted to understand cryptocurrency and or is NF Ts, I think. And I said, Look, I'm really not trying to be provocative. I'm not trolling here, but I really don't get these. I don't understand it. And so example like I saw something where you could use an NF T to get a ticket to something and I said, well, why don't I just use my credit card? To buy a ticket? Why would I buy the NF T and then use the NF T to buy the other thing? And I meant it. I didn't mean it as a wise guy, right? Is there something I'm missing? You know, there must be and the first response was like, Oh, you're not trolling. Oh, Robert, like these? And I deleted the question because I was like, it's like sticking your face into a buzzsaw, you know, yeah.
Greg Voisen
Well, you know, I, I heard it once said that the only way we're going to heal this divisiveness because this is, you know, there's a lot of divisiveness that we know has been going on in social media, let's face doesn't matter which platform I'm going to just pick on any platform. And it agitates and angers people, but the only way we're going to heal this world is through compassion. And if we can't learn to be more compassionate with one another, good chances of our of us evolving as a species to something that's more conscious, and living and more of I don't think we'll ever get to a utopia, but at least some level of, you know, increased ability where we're not having wars, and we're not killing people, and we're not gunning people down in their churches, and we're not having, you know, riots and these kinds of things is to try and understand the other side. You know, take the time. And that brings me back to your book. Your book, really at its essence is about understanding the other side and shutting up and listening. Because in your wife's case, it was like, Hey, Dan, I'm invisible. You're not listening to me. Right? Understand my side right. So if your book filled with these stories about the power of keeping our mouths shut. What advice would you leave our listeners with about how to have a happier, more fulfilling? And I'm going to add to it more compassionate life by not talking so much.
Dan Lyons
I think you just stuck on it. I think it's listening. The biggest, biggest thing that happened for me was okay, first stop talking. So you don't step on a landmine great. But then it's like, well, if you're not attacking, you can listen. And it's amazing to me, because it's, it feels like you're not doing anything. But you actually, you know, if you're listening actively you are there. I have a story in the book about my daughter is having a meltdown to the junior in high school was about a paper. And I just sat with her. I really didn't say anything. I listened, and she kind of self soothe and brought herself down. And we ended up having this remarkable moment. And I think we've had enough of those. It's really brought us closer together. And yeah, I think the power of listening is, is beyond anything I ever realized. And it's been the best thing for me. Shut up and just listened to people ask my wife. It's amazing. So that's the thing you think, Well, I've changed, right? Okay. Yes. My wife has changed. She's happier. So it's wow, I really helped her.
Greg Voisen
Yeah, I can relate because my wife is very introverted as well. And I remember a time longtime that we're going to be celebrating our 45th wedding anniversary in June.
Dan Lyons
Really? Congratulations. Yeah.
Greg Voisen
And I said, I remember we look, marriage is not without ups and downs, as we all know. And I remember someone saying to me, you know, would you rather be right? Or would you rather be in love. And, you know, there's frequently a lot of time spend standing on a position to be right, just like people are on the internet. They want to be right. Right, and they want to be heard, and they can't give it up. They won't give it up to hear the other side. Because there's their ego is so invested in being right. And in marriages, when your ego is so invested in being right, you drive the other person from you. Literally do that, right? I mean, I was standing at the washing machine, what are the washer, when this epiphany occurred, I can still remember it like it's like yesterday, because the argument was so heated and she was leaving, she said, I'm gonna leave. And I didn't wake up until I really realized that I just have to shut up and quit trying to be right all the time. Just hear the other side, hear what someone else has to say. And for my listeners. This book is about that. When you really read this book, you know, go to Dan Lyons, l y o n s.io. We'll have a link to that article that appeared in time as well get a copy of this book comes out. Today is the sixth of March, it actually comes out tomorrow. Whenever you're listening this podcast, please, please go get it. Because when you read between the lines of this book, you're going to read a lot more about what's going on and about what everybody needs. Everybody needs this. So Dan, Namaste to you. Thank you for understanding inside personal growth. Thank you for just giving us so much wisdom about this. And I can't wait. I don't have a book right now folks who otherwise would have held one up but Dan has one there. I have one. Yeah. Can you hold the book up very bright.
Dan Lyons
Power Miss big
Greg Voisen
valve shut. I really love it. I love this interview. I can see the growth in you as a soul. Thank you for bearing and being vulnerable to because it takes a lot of vulnerability to do this as Brene Brown would say. So thank you for that.
Dan Lyons
Oh, thank you for taking an interest in I really enjoyed this conversation. How
Greg Voisen
will we want to have you back on again, maybe we should have you on for some of your other books that you wrote previously.
Dan Lyons
Or if I right yeah,
Greg Voisen
Yeah. Okay, all right. Well, you take care of yourself.
Dan Lyons
Thank you
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Inside Personal Growth with Greg Voisen · Podcast 995: VisuaLeadership with Todd CherchesMy guest for today’s podcast is all-in-one consultant, trainer, executive coach, TEDx speaker, professor and author, Todd Cherches featuring one of his books entitled VisuaLeadership: Leveraging the Power of Visual Thinking in Leadership and in Life.
Todd is also the CEO and co-founder of BigBlueGumball LLC, an innovative management and leadership consulting, training, and executive coaching firm. They’ve patented VisuaLeadership® methodology which leverages the power of visual thinking and visual communication to equip, enable, and empower business professionals of all levels to maximize their performance, their productivity, and their potential.
This VisuaLeadership methodology was also published as a book in 2020 entitled VisuaLeadership: Leveraging the Power of Visual Thinking in Leadership and in Life. This book’s vision is to forever change the way you think and communicate by showing how you can quickly and easily leverage the power of visual imagery and storytelling to help you take your game to a whole new level.
If you want to know more about Todd, you may click here to visit his personal website. You may also access his company site by clicking this link.
I hope you enjoy my engaging interview with Todd Cherches. Happy listening!
You may also refer to the transcripts below for the full transciption (not edited) of the interview.
Interview Transcipt -Not EditedEmailDownloadNew TabGreg Voisen
Well, to all my audience out there, welcome back to Inside Personal Growth again. And thank you, we are closing in on 1000 podcasts, which is a big milestone for me, Todd. And joining me from Connecticut is Todd Cherches. Good day to you, Todd, how you doing?
Todd Cherches
Thank you, Greg. I was just saying, I have to head into New York shortly to teach my NYU class. But I'm doing good today and well, psyched for our conversation looking forward to it.
Greg Voisen
Well, I am as well. And it for all of you who haven't seen the book we're gonna talk about, if you're on video, you can see right behind Todd, there's a whole shelf of them and a big one right in the corner there. And I'm gonna hold the book up Visual leadership, leveraging the power of visual thinking and leadership and in life, Todd Cherches, and if you want to, there's two places, you can go to toddcherches.com. That's t-o-d-d-c-h-e-r-c-h-e-s.com. And the other one is www.bigbluegumball.com. We'll put links to both of those in our blog, and in the podcast. And Todd, I just want to make a big go out to you that anybody who buys his book off Amazon, which we'll have a link too. It is a super high quality book, it's very well done visually, and the way that the text is written and the learning experiences that you'll get out of it, based on the questions that are outlined at the end of each of the chapters, and visual leadership. You know, David Winckelmann, was the one that introduced me to Todd and I want to make a shout out about that, because I always appreciate the people that make all these connections for me to get all these interviews done. And this is a very interesting topic. You know, I've done all things on podcasts about graphic facilitation, and creating visual elements associated with either creating new ideas and businesses. And Todd's book has an a degree of that, but it goes one step further. And I want to tell our listeners a little bit about you. He's the CEO and co-founder of Big Blue Gumball, an innovative New York City based management, and leadership consulting, training, and executive coaching firm. He's also a TEDx speaker. And we'll put a link in our blog to the TEDx talk called The Power of visual thinking. And a two time award winning adjunct professor of leadership at NYU School of Professional Studies, Division of programs in business, as well as lecture on leadership at Columbia University. So Todd has the credibility. He's done this, again, I'll put a shout out a wonderful book. So Todd, let's kind of just kick this off. Because I know, this book has so much in it. I mean, the chapters, some of them are short, some of them are a little longer. But the reality is, there is so much in this book for somebody to kind of take in, and you tell an interesting story about growing up and wanting to be Batman or Superman, you say or working in television. And, you know, it was like, Well, I'm gonna be Batman, or I'm gonna be Superman. I can't be there. But I could work in television. You said you were obsessed with television? It sounded like as a kid, you watched a lot of TV. Can you speak about the beginnings and your trip to China that led to this power of visual to communicate?
Todd Cherches
Sure. Well, the introduction chapter. My book is basically very similar to the script of my TED Talk. So if people want to hear it, they watched my TED talk on the power of visual thinking. But yeah, people would say to you say to me, Ty, what do you want to be when you grow up as a kid? I would say I want to be Superman. I was obsessed with Superman. In fact, this is one of my mugs. I keep on my desk for those watching the video. So he's always close, close at hand. And they will say, Well, if you can't be Superman, what would your backup plan be? And I said, All right, Batman. So like as a kid, those are my two visions of possibilities. So but then I realized that if I couldn't be Superman, or Batman I, the next best thing would be to work in the TV industry in some capacity. In fact, I keep I keep this on my desk as a constant reminder of my Superman Batman heritage. But in a way it sounds once said to me, you don't have X ray vision, but you have visual thinking as a superpower. As Batman, you don't have the bat utility belt, but you have your coaching toolkit, so I rescue people I help to make people have better lives. So in some way is I get to channel Superman and Batman in my everyday work. So I'm working in the TV industry. I worked in advertising in New York for a year. And then I moved out to LA. Having grown up in New York. It was a big move to go out to Hollywood, and I got a series of part time jobs in the entertainment industry. I work from Michael Nesmith of the Monkees. That was my first job and most my baby my millennials, students have no idea and Gen Xers have no idea what Michael Nesmith told them.
Greg Voisen
That's true. I think he's deceased now isn't enough.
Todd Cherches
He just recently passed away. Yeah, baby boomers appreciate that. And I worked for Aaron Spelling on dynasty, I worked in casting at Columbia Pictures comedy at Disney and drama at CBS. So during all those years working in the TV industry, the big thing was storytelling and character development. And there's a lot of parallels to that and to coaching. We could talk about lay there. But then I got to the theme park business as a project manager. So I was sent by my company we made robotic figures for theme parks, so they sent me I've never been outside the United States before I didn't have a passport, but they shifted ship shipped me off to China Shenzhen, China, just over the boy from Hong Kong to oversee this installation of these seven life size robotic figures, elephants, sheep and cows for this call. And
Greg Voisen
I remember you saying that you decided to wear a suit the first day and it was like 109 outside. That suit didn't last very long.
Todd Cherches
So with my briefcase, meeting in Manhattan, it was middle of like, this jungle was 110 degrees. I literally took a shower and I went outside human does almost like I took a shower in my suit. Like that's literally next day, I learned that I could dress a little more casually.
Greg Voisen
Yeah, yeah. So what did you learn by doing that installation in China and this whole concept around visuals to communicate,
Todd Cherches
I showed up with two of my colleagues, a mechanical guy, engineering electrical guy. And then all the Chinese counterparts showed up and none of them spoke English, including the translator who spoke almost no English. And we spoke no Chinese. But we had to get this done. So what I started doing is picking up a pad or pen and pen and start sketching things out different tools and different and we use a lot of body language and facial expressions to communicate. So I realized that's not just through our words that we communicate, but through body language, facial expression and visual images. So that was my first lightbulb moment. And at the time, you don't realize it. But looking back, I realized that was a key point where I was using visual communication. And I said sometimes felt like I was playing Pictionary and charades. You know, two words sounds like tape measure, you know, to try and communicate. But it's like how you would communicate with a tape measure is with your hands or with a drawing. And even though I couldn't draw that, well, I suffer from ICD, which is I can't draw syndrome, I was able to draw well enough I say if you can pay Pictionary with your friends and family and your kids, you could draw well enough to do a stick figure, or just sketch something out. And that was the like the origin story of when I first started realizing you
Greg Voisen
didn't, you didn't have Google translate back then. So you can basically take you know, play it as a, okay, now translate this to Chinese. But I do believe that that element of connecting with a piece of paper and a pen, whether it's a pencil or a pen, or a yellow marker, or whatever it is, there's really something to be said about that. And I remember you talking about drawing on the back of a napkin as well, right, you know, developing that. Um, and so, obviously, you use these visuals to communicate with these gentlemen. And that's where this power kind of came from. Plus all the exposure you had in Hollywood about developing storylines, right, coming up with storylines, and, and doing that. And you have a formula in the book for success and visual leadership. You call it? And I think it's so true, because it's always been said, my listeners will say, Well, I've heard this, a lot picture's worth 1000 words, but it really is probably worth more than that today. Um, can you speak with our listeners about the formula and how the formula can help us create results in our personal and in our business lives, because I know that I've been caught sometimes not as much lately, but I used to be. And I used to be a yellow pad kind of salesman, you know, I would always pull out the yellow pad and I would draw it now we have all these electronic devices and it takes longer to pull out the pen and turn it on and get it you know, get it going. And by that time you've lost the idea.
Todd Cherches
That's why I tell my students to leave your laptops at home and just bring like a sketch pad or just a D pad and pens. I do a lot of drawing exercises. In my I teach leadership at NYU and Columbia. As you mentioned, I incorporate a lot of drawing exercises. So instead of just my sketching out a model, I have my students if it's a four box matrix, if it's a five level staircase I actually have them draw it out. And the research has shown that when we draw, we activate a different part of our brain. It's kinesthetic activity, and it's a visual activity. And if you reconstruct it yourself, as opposed to just be shown it, or even more, or than just being told it, you actually remember I was talking about attention, comprehension and retention, I mentioned that my book and Ted talk to that when use visual imagery or visual language, it gets people's two people to focus it captures their attention increases their understanding, it helps them to remember so
Greg Voisen
why are people in my estimation, this is just a personal observation. They seem to be afraid or uptight about drawing in front of people. You know, I have behind me here, this, this wall is basically a big 55 inch white screen that you it's, it's a vision whiteboard, is what it is. And even me, after all the stuff I've been through, there are times when I get up on that thing, and I start drawing and I think to myself, oh, boy, I don't want anyone else to see this. And I want my listeners to know that it's okay. And I wonder what you would tell people today about that? Yeah, well, I recently
Todd Cherches
did a visual leadership workshop for a group of 20 CEOs, and the guy who brought me and said, You're not gonna actually make them draw, are you? And I'm like, Yes, that's a part of the experience. feel to them, like little kindergarten, they? And I said maybe at first, but next thing you know, is they're asking for more time and more colors, you know, it's just like, because what I always say is, if you ask a group of kids, how many of you could draw how many raise their hand? All of them? Right? But you asked me a group of businesspeople, and none of them raise their hand, self-conscious about looking stupid or looking bad. So I actually take people through a very simple exercise, if you could draw a line, a square, a circle and a triangle, you could sketch out an idea, right? So it's not, it's not an assessment of your drawing abilities. It's an assessment of your ability to communicate something visually. And I actually wrote an article for Ink Magazine called Can you draw what your company does? So I could send you the link or people could just Google can you draw what your company does Ink Magazine to read the article, but it tells a story of an exercise I did with a group of clients, salespeople? And how do that 115 minute exercise, it completely changed the way they went about their sales process. So just had they not gone through the drawing exercise, they may never have reached that point. So it was a real life case study and how drawing helps us to access your right brain left brain logical, right brain rhythm. That's why I always remember left brain, right brain, but we incorporate both sides of the brain, the logical and the creative, were more powerful than either on their own.
Greg Voisen
It was interesting, because I was recently watching a documentary that was done on Netflix about a psychologist actually, he's in think he's in New York, actually, I can't remember his name Stubbs, and he draws, but he draw even has Parkinson's. So when he draws these images out, and they used him in the video, right, they showed them, they look like scratches on paper, you know, they were kind of tough, but Phil Stutz. That's it, Phil Stutz. But
Todd Cherches
he's Jonah Hill's therapist, and I was, but I actually wrote a blog post about how he uses those note cards and has his patients and he, yeah, to communicate ideas.
Greg Voisen
He was fantastic. I actually am going to write him to be on the show. But he is wonderful. But go back to my second question, I wanted to make sure you got the formula and because I interrupted you, but tell the formula, and then we'll move forward with some other really great stuff. Sure.
Todd Cherches
I'm not a mathematical guy. But for the mathematical people out there, you know, the formula is VL equals Vt plus V c, times n plus L. And that stands for visual leadership is visual thinking, plus visual communication times or apply to management and leadership. So that's like in a mathematical formula, that's the foundation of everything really do.
Greg Voisen
Yeah. And it really makes sense. And when you get the book, look at the formula, you don't need to memorize it. What you need to do is just look at it, you will figure out what he's talking about. Speak with the listeners about visual leadership. You know, I've heard about visual thinking I've heard about all these other elements that are visual in nature. And the grandfather of kind of this art form that started is in San Francisco, right. And you and I talked about, talked about him and his name is blanking out on me right now what David civets and David's been on the show, like three times and there couldn't be you know, look, when all of you kind of start out in this graphic facilitation arena. Not everybody's perfect. Right. But you start and you keep practicing, you get better and better. Speaking of listeners about visual leadership and how our mindset can make something good or bad, but that the bottom line of the perception of what is good or bad is the bottom line. And then, and then how we have purpose and passion about working at what we're doing. Because in our own minds, we create something good or bad. Right?
Todd Cherches
Shakespeare said, and Hamlet, nothing is good or bad, but thinking makes itself, right. Yeah. Visual Thinking makes it makes it. So that's my own spin on Shakespeare. But yeah, day seven is the grandfather of this industry, his company called Grove in Northern California. What he does is teaches people to use drawing and graphic recording and things like that. I'm like the anti-Dave Sibbett, because I represent the people who can draw. Or we could use visual imagery and props and metaphors and stories and mental models to help people think visually, because so many executives say, oh, I can't draw. So this doesn't apply to me, or I'm not in the creative field. So this doesn't apply to me. I was doing that workshop with the CEOs I mentioned before two guys were sitting next to each other to CEOs who had known each other for 15 years. And I actually had them do that exercise, can you draw what your company does, so they actually either explained to a drawing either a metaphor or sketching out their supply chain, however, they wanted to do it. And one guy said to the other, I've known you for 15 years, I never really understand your business or your business issues, until you sketched it out for me. And now it's like the light bulb went off. It was my light bulb that went off, I was keep my light bulb pansy. That's a great example of how to these two guys that were friends knew each other business associates for years. But until the guy sketched it out, the other one didn't really realize that he understood these issues, and there's challenges and I was able to help him. So that's the main point. So Visual leadership, and just see that some people don't realize that I spell it as one word with a shared capital L. And the idea behind the word visual leadership, when I got the patents on it, the first two times the US Patent Office rejected it, the third time was a charm, and they approved it. But visual leadership represents the fact that who you are, and how you lead is inseparable from the lens through which you see the world, right? Our background, our culture, our education, our life experiences, our values, all shape, what we see, but also what we miss what we don't see. One of the concepts of visual leadership is to open up your eyes and open up your mind to seeing the world through a new lens through a different lens and also through the lens of other people. And the other aspect of this is when you mentioned the word leadership, and I've done this poll hundreds of times one of the first three words that comes to mind, and the number one is vision. Right. So I mean, to talk about having a leadership vision, what does it mean to call someone, a visionary leader? When you think of visionary leaders who comes to mind Martin Luther King, Steve Jobs, right, Jeff Bezos, they're all people who had a picture of the future. And the key word is picture in their mind's eye, which is a term also coined by Shakespeare and how much they have a picture in their mind of a future that's different from and better than the current reality. So their challenge as a leader is how do I turn that picture in my head into a real life transformation? And how do I get other people to see what I'm saying? So that's kind of my mantra, my catchphrase, if I was gonna put them on a t shirt, that bumper sticker, it would be asking the question, how do you get other people to see what you're saying? So I'll stop right there. But that's the foundation of what visual leadership is all about?
Greg Voisen
Yeah, no, it's important for listeners to understand and I and I remember, being in the audience wants a National Geographic photographer, his last name was de Wit. I don't know if you ever heard him speak or not. But, you know, when you talk about visual, there couldn't be anything more than trying to capture you taking 1000s of pictures for National Geographic to actually pick one right out of the scene. And he used to say that intuitively now here's where I want to bring in this whole intuitive element. Even though you didn't write about it extensively. His he would get an intuitive hit, they would say turn around a wet, turn around, lay down to wit lay down take the camera and shoot from a different angle shoot from a different perspective. And it were it was those pictures where he got that kit that literally made it into the magazine because they weren't standard, hey, I'm standing here and I shoot an elephant or I shoot a giraffe or a tiger whatever. He would literally take a whole new perspective and angle at the way in which he shot a picture and I thought that was really significant. When you're want to get something like that turn around audience and look at it a different way. Right.
Todd Cherches
Because I have my TED talk with as the from Marcel Proust who said, the real voyage of discovery consists not in see Can new lands but then seeing with new eyes, so the example you just gave is a great example of just change your point of view, right. And so what would be the leadership equivalent of that I was thinking about, remember the show Undercover Boss with a boss in disguise, and pose, you know, get out of your ivory tower, get out of your office, go down to the shop floor, go out into the field and see the world through the lens of your people and to your customers. And you're gonna get a whole different vantage point than you would get from just looking at spreadsheets and looking at your cash flow statements.
Greg Voisen
And ask questions. I mean, you know, what you want to do is you want to find out how people feel about what's going on whether you're on the assembly line, or you're out in a construction site, right? You want to know what they feel, which is why Undercover Boss was so good, because they were asking those questions of the people. Now you speak about four ways that one can manage and lead visually. What are they? And why are they so important to manifesting our ideas into reality?
Todd Cherches
Show I break it down into four categories. And they're not mutually exclusive silos. But when using combination, they're even more effective. But just for the sake of our conversation, this is kind of how my book is structured. Category One is using visual imagery. So using pictures using props, using photographs, anything that you any information you could take into your to your physical eye, right, so using imagery, or you can use visual language, right, you could describe something almost painting a movie with words, those are all use of imagery, right? You like to get someone to have a picture in their head. So that's category one, visual images, Category Two. In fact, if you think about the word images is closely related to imagination, right, they share the same route, right, so in order to imagine the future, you need to have a picture of it in your head. Category Two is using mental models and frameworks. So this could be like Maslow's hierarchy of needs. It could be a four box matrix, like the time management matrix or SWOT analysis, it's basically about creating, we don't want to put people in boxes, and the saying, thinking outside the box is become a cliche. But if we put things in a box, or a framework or a structure, we can take the complexity and messiness of life and work and put them into categories. So we could see things more clearly. And then find solutions and opportunities that we might not otherwise see. So that's category two, mental models and frameworks. Category three is using metaphor and analogy. And this is where I get to bring in my, even though I have a formula for visual leadership, I was actually an English literature major with a concentration in Shakespeare and poetry thing I like, well did Shakespeare a couple of times here. So using metaphors, analogies, a lot of times, we just think of metaphors as the, you know, a tool of songwriters and poets, but we use metaphorical language in our everyday life. So we'll talk more about some real life examples of that. But metaphors are using visual language to explain something and bring it to live. And quality. category four, which is one of the hottest topics out there is using visual storytelling or leadership storytelling, to convey an idea and to motivate and inspire people. So those are my four buckets, basically,
Greg Voisen
well, those buckets are so important, Todd, I mean, really, when you think about it, you know, pictures, and then metaphors, and the diagrams, they all are so visual, and helping us understand something, you know, and I would tell people, you know, if you're going to be doing presentations, you know, start to develop an asset library, pull over piece pieces that you like, that you're going to use frequently, and you're going to put together into a PowerPoint or something, but I use visual and they've proven and I think you'll agree with this, that when you do these PowerPoints, don't fill them with words, because people don't remember a bullet pointed thing that goes down the page. They don't even want to see it. And number one, and number two, they won't remember it. So the bigger the words, the more visuals. If it was like a big word, think outside the box, with a box underneath, it would be better than taking a list of what it would be like to think out of the box Correct.
Todd Cherches
Slide filled with words is basically called your teleprompter. Right? It's basically if you're gonna read something while you're speaking, if you're reading, as soon as you put up a slide with 10 bullet points, what is your audience doing? They're reading the slides and not even listening to you at this point. So you said to them and say read it on your own, if you can say, all right, well, point number two. So yeah, just as you said, capture, yeah, Steve Jobs was a master of that if you watch any of his presentations for the announcement of any of the iPod, or iBook, and it'll be the iPhone, any of those product announcements, you can see how I use visuals with almost no or very few words on the screen. So they
Greg Voisen
were mad Apple was masters at it, just to say the least. And thus, I think for much of their success, and I'll attribute it to that. Now, I want to switch gears a little bit. You used to go on these long rides with your parents, your mom and dad in the car, and that your father loved to make everyone laugh. He was a big jokester. Can you tell the story and why this is a good example of visual thinking and visual communications, because there's actually a picture of, I think it is really your dad and the dashboard in the book. And I remember taking long rides with my dad, but I remember my dad being so funny. Although he would point things out along the way, you know,
Todd Cherches
my father used to think to Sinatra and Tony Bennett in the car and entertain us. And but yeah, it said the same corny dad jokes all the time in the same spot. So yeah, we'd be driving to my grandmother's house from Long Island and to Brooklyn. And we inevitably pass a certain point in the trip, my father say, hurry, I've taught Steve due to my mother, you know. So give me a piece of paper and a pen. And my mother would say, why are we Why do you need a piece of paper in the pen? He said, well look at the sign and the sign would say, punch line. drawbridge. So we got about to go for a drawbridge. And but if you think about that, and that's, that's a visual storytelling example, right? And I hope that for our listeners, anytime you go see a drawbridge side for the rest of your life, you'll think of my father and maybe give a little chuckle or even a groan, and maybe I'll even start saying it, as my wife does. Now. But if you think about the words drawbridge, right, the idea is the dried bridge goes up. And that's why you need to be aware of it. But just the two words draw drawing, which we just talked about, and bridge, well, there's a bridge to it's about connection, right? A bridge connects two sides of land to go across the water, like a bridge over troubled water, right. So when you see a sign, they call draw bridge that says draw a bridge that always makes me think of visual thinking of visual communication and making connections between people. Almost as if you draw, you know, creating a bridge between you and the other person, right? Whether it's our customer, or our employees, or whomever,
Greg Voisen
it was a good symbolism, you have a picture of a drawbridge. Unfortunately, out here in California, we don't see many drop bridges. But I think in the East Coast, you definitely see more, I have a funny little story, a friend of mine, where he's now deceased, he used to, we would push the button to go across the street. And as you know, in some of the lamps, or the ISA posts, there's a voice that comes out that says, wait, wait, wait, wait in it, you know, you don't have the ability to walk across any would always yell out to me, why don't they want to know my weight? And I know, it was stupid. It sounded so stupid, but actually was so corny. It was funny, you know, he would say that almost every time we were at one of those crosswalks?
Greg Voisen
Well, you know, this napkin sketching thing that I mentioned a few seconds ago, tell us a story about Southwest Airlines was founded, and the use of this napkin sketching. Now again, I don't I have plenty on napkins. I don't always have a white pad. Can you speak about the visual thinking tool and others that our listeners might use to develop an idea? I mean, I'd probably go back to the I mean, you can probably realize this, that the Native American Indians used to use a stick and draw on the sand, right? And a lot of
Todd Cherches
play football as a kid like touch football and draw the play out with a stick number on the grass, or in the palm of your hand, right? I remember that you run here, you do a post pattern, you do a hook pattern or whatever. Right. So yeah,
Greg Voisen
yeah. So talk about that story about Southwest Airlines. I think that the listeners get a kick out of it.
Todd Cherches
Sure. Well, napkin sketching is just as it says, like you're sitting in a bar, you grab a napkin, sketch something out, it can also be a back of the envelope. It could be any scrap of paper, right? That's the idea behind it is it's always there. But the classic story, the classic napkin sketching story is about Southwest Airline about South Southwest Airlines. How was born guy was sitting on the bar. I'm drawing a blank and there's a rollin King was sitting at a bar and he said to Herb Kelleher, what if we created a small commuter airline that just connected the three cities and who were trying all of San Antonio, Dallas and Houston and Herb Kelleher said love the idea, let's do it, and that became Southwest Airlines. So just by drawing that triangle with those three cities, he painted a mental map and herb Keller has a mind's eye where he can actually visualize it right. So he pictured the map of Texas he pictured this triangle and said yes, and now south, southwest airlines are having other problems right now these days, but they are one of the top national airlines now. And they were all the idea that was born on the triangle and napkin sketch. That's just one example of how you can take ship something down to its basic bare bones to communicate it so someone can understand it. And then from there, you can add meat to the bones and add those other layers on Until but that's a one of the classic napkin sketching stories.
Greg Voisen
Well, I remember working in companies and playing the video about Herb Kelleher and the whole story around love Luv, right and the heart on the back of the wing of the plane. or I shouldn't say the wing but the on the back of the plane. But at the same time, you know, he was big on culture, right? Like, let's pass out m&ms. He'd walk around and give m&ms to the people. He tried to give some autonomy to a certain degree. So people could make their own decisions about what's going on if there was a canceled flight or whatever. But he was one of the first to kind of really get into like, developing the culture around Bob, there was like love and people were like, love. Are you kidding me? And he's like, we're not gonna do love. But for all of those you don't know much about Herb Kelleher. It's a great story. And there's some great videos out there that you could learn inside your companies about how you shift the culture.
Todd Cherches
One of the top CEOs he just passed away a few years ago, but he's one of the top CEOs in the 20th century. So definitely worth studying how he built culture, as you just said, Yeah,
Greg Voisen
phenomenal. Unfortunately, like you said, they've had a few hiccups here lately. I'm sure they'll come back because they're a strong company. But, you know, you tell another cute story about your dog, Coco. And there's a picture in the book is that Coco?
Todd Cherches
That's not actually her because her name wasn't Coco, because I wanted to preserve her anonymity. Plus, with password, a lot of times they asked her what was your childhood stored? I wouldn't put that out into the world. That's why I changed her name to keep her anonymous.
Greg Voisen
Okay, well, that's good. Well, whoever this dogs real name was, you always retrieved the yellow ball. Now look, I have to mix mutt dogs myself. And we take them to the park like three times a week and throw balls, right? What you refer to, is when you would throw these balls, she'd always pick up the yellow ball, no matter what you could have a black one, you could have a blue one you could have whatever was yellow, you speak about visual thinking tools. And others, to our listeners might develop as an idea. I think this, the point of the story was doing the best at what we like to do. So in other words, is the dog like to go get the yellow ball, so it went and fetch the wallet.
Todd Cherches
I keep these on my desk to remind me of the for those watching the video version, I would throw a red ball, a yellow ball and an eye, blue ball, I throw them all the way across the backyard, I impress people, I'd say Koko, go get the yellow ball. And people would be amazed she would bring back the yellow ball. But even if I say get the red ball or the blue ball, she always brought back the yellow one. So what I did was tell her that bring back the yellow ball. So there's the same by Frederick Taylor, the original management consultant back in 1911. He said that people do best what they like best to do. So if we can just like my dog, what bringing back that yellow ball for whatever reason, and we find out about our people what they love to do, we could set them up for success. Now, we can always do that. But if we find out what they what their passions are, what their sense of purpose is what they're good at, then we could set them up for success by giving them whatever that yellow ball is to do, and they will shine bright, they will always succeed. So that's the yellow ball leadership principle.
Greg Voisen
I like that. And you know, I know dogs are pretty colorblind, right, they don't see all the spectrums that we do. And I noticed the manufacturers of these balls. And this is a side note, everybody, they're either orange or blue. Because I think those must be the colors that they can see and what they'll go after. But it is interesting, this whole concept that you're telling that, you know, they'll go fetch something they like to fetch, right. And your point here is do something you'd like to do, because you're always going to keep getting better at it right?
Todd Cherches
You want to find out if you don't know what people like to do, what their passions are, what they're good at what they'd like to learn, then you may be giving them you know, Jim Collins said, get them get the right people on the bus and the wrong people off and get the people in the right seat on the bus. Similarly with the yellow ball, you wouldn't know what the yellow ball is or what the right seat on the bus is for each person on your team and then together you can take it somewhere great. So a lot of times people underperform because they're in the wrong seat on the bus or you're asking them to do something that they're not equipped to do or they don't have a passion for. So the whole idea of the metaphor here is find out learn from your people what it is that they like to do and what they want to be better at and then helped to develop those skills help to nurture them towards their Yeah.
Greg Voisen
And you know, you still travel a lot but used to travel a lot more. It seems like doing speaking and You were talking about going in your sock drawer, and you would have these different colored socks, right? And then you told the story about shit. This is just too complicated. I'm just gonna go down and one day you went down to New York and you bought 16 pairs of black socks? Would you comment on making a conscious decision not to have to stop and think. And I think that's really the point here is, you know, we have a lot of choices in life today. Right? There's just tons of choices out there for us more than I think we've ever had in our life. If you work into a in a developing country, like we do, you might not have all those choices, if you're in a different part of the world. But we have tons of choices about what we eat, what we put on the kind of car we drive, all of that kind of stuff. How do we make it simple? Because it does seem complicated at times?
Todd Cherches
Yeah, one way to simplify is what I call again, I use a lot of colors as metaphor. So this is called Black sock decision making. And the idea was just that, instead of spending a half hour picking out which socks Should I wear, if you had nothing but black to choose from, there's no choice involved, right? So the metaphor there is to simplify complexity by eliminating as many decisions as you can, and Systemizing and commoditizing certain things to free your time and your mental bandwidth up for making the decisions of things that really matter. Barry Schwartz has a great TED Talk and book called The Paradox of Choice. And he talks about when you give people too many choices, and you know, this is a salesperson, they get paralyzed by indecision and don't choose anything, right? That's why the small, medium or large, that's why with a bottle of wine, they have the cheap one, the middle one and the expensive one, most people buy the middle one, right. So how do you frame pricing how you frame you choose between vendors, you choose between iPhones, whatever products you're buying or services you're offering, you want to simplify that for your customers and for your team so that they can sell better or make better decisions. So that's the idea behind BLINDSIGHT decision making is simplifying the things that you can. And you know, who does this as Marshall Goldsmith, the number one executive coach in the world, if you look at pictures of him, he wears a green golf shirt and khakis all the time. And the story behind it just like my black sock decision making is when he's packing, when he's traveling. He doesn't have to say what am I gonna wear today who bring if I'm gone for 10 days, I bring 10 Green golf shirts, and I'm packed right and hopefully, whereas black socks too, and just back to the black socks, right? But that's the idea behind that was just to simplify and you know, does anyone really care what you wear? what color socks you wear? No. Right? So those are the types of things that leave those things? Are what kind of to what if you have five toothpaste to choose from in the morning? You know, take your half out and brush your teeth. Right, as opposed to just reaching for that.
Greg Voisen
Oh, yeah, it's so true. You know, I just had Marshall on not that long ago, new book. And when he says to regret to fulfilment, and he works with a lot of high achievers, right. And he was, I remember this distinctly what he was saying, because I've never in all the years that I've been reading his books, Todd, heard him outwardly speak about the his theories around Buddhist teachings. But I did this time in this in this last book, and it was almost like, Hey, I'm 72 years old, now I can talk what I want to talk about. So I'm gonna do it. And I think he made an important point about non attachment to the outcome. He said, you know, all these people have these attachments to an outcome. You know, they, especially if you're a high achiever, it's got to be done a particular way. And he said, No, you've got to let go of that. Right. And that's pretty simple. When you're talking about this sock decision to it's like, I'm not attached to which pair of socks, it's a green shirt, and a khaki pair of pants, and black socks, and black shoes, or brown shoes, or whatever they all go or you're gonna put on, but it was it
Todd Cherches
was a black turtleneck in the blue jeans, right? It's kind of like Zuckerberg in his hoodie, right? But it becomes it's part of your brand. It's also just about simplifying your life. And
Greg Voisen
it is and my wife, even kids, me, she said, You know, when you do these podcasts, usually always have just a black shirt on and I do. And today it's a little cooler. So I'm wearing a little vest, but my point is, is like it's my uniform. And she says, Well, you have like five black shirts. And I go like, yeah, because it's easy. I just went on black shirts, a pair of jeans and pants. And, you know, I don't want to complicate things, right? So I like that.
Todd Cherches
We're doing martial The book is called The urban life and it's amazing and it's great. It's actually a member of Marshall Goldsmith mg 100 coaches, which is so I guess, I'm so honored that I've been Monday, every other Monday morning, we have like an hour with Marshall just where he talks about his philosophies and everything. It's such an amazing honor and privilege to be in that group because his book like guy, I have that on the shelf. But also what got you here won't get you there, right behind me on my, my coaching Bible, I teach you that my classes, and I really follow it in my practice. And he's well,
Greg Voisen
he's been a good friend of mine, he used to live like three and a half miles from me here I used to take, I used to take walks with him from his house that we would do a walk every Saturday, not every Saturday morning, but one Saturday morning a month, and we would all gather in his house, and we'd walk and just talk and it was a great it. And then we'd have tea or coffee when he came back. So it was a lot of fun. But he definitely has a lot of wisdom, as you're saying,
Todd Cherches
sharing, and he's giving back. And that's the whole point of 100 coaches is to give away everything he's learned and everything. He knows what the promise that those of us in the 100 coaches that we do the same when we reached that point of our lives. So
Greg Voisen
you are a living example of that as well, you know, and I think one of the comments he made when we were interviewing because I was watching the video again, was hey, don't you wish you were 32? Again? It goes well, no, not really. So speak with our listeners about the little pink spoon, the concept that Baskin Robbins uses and what suggestions would you give our listeners about giving their prospects? This free taste? And what are their you know, what are the three show ones that you talk about in the book? And by the way, John Robbins has been on the show before. And ocean Robbins has not been on the show. But if you look at who's carrying on the legacy, it's ocean Robbins right now.
Todd Cherches
That's great. Yeah. So yeah, for those of us who know and love Baskin Robbins, right, you go in, I always get rocky road anyway, so But meanwhile, you want to taste a few other flavors. So they have those little things, spoons, although I think they've switched over to one ones because the more environmentally sound, so they'll may not use the plastic that they used to. But the whole idea is that the little pink spoon, you get to taste a few different flavors to make a decision before you decide what kind of cone you want to buy. Similarly, in your business, what is the equivalent of the little pink spoon? How can you give your customers or employees a, quote, free sample of what you are offering so that they will want to buy the whole cone or a gallon or come back for more? Right? So that's the idea is like, how do you give people a taste of what you do. And that's the metaphor, it's that simple. So if you're a job seeker and you're going on an interview, you may tell the story about, you know, this is where I worked on my resume. But what you also want to do is give your employer or prospective employer a, quote, free sample of your wisdom of your skills of your passions, right? So you want to illustrate to a story, tell them, here's something I once did, that will reflect on that we'll create a vision in their mind's eye, they can actually picture you in that job doing that job, right. So that's the whole idea. If you want a customer to buy your product or service, it might be offering a free sample of your workshop or giving them a 10 minute sampler or something. So that's the key idea there. So how can you give people a taste of what it is that you do?
Greg Voisen
Well, I've often heard this next one. And I like that we're getting out all these little examples, Todd, because they're great. They're little chapters in your book, they might only be three pages long, some of them but they're shortened to the point. And it's something everybody here listening today can use. And I just want to remind you that the book is filled with this kind of wisdom. So it's great. And you had this recent visit with your cardiologist and amaz, like you say, gave you a heart attack. Can you tell me the story and the important element of how people in this case your doctor, relate numbers can either shock you or be pleasantly surprising and encouraging. And I think this is an important one because it's how you frame the picture. Yeah, yeah, we
Todd Cherches
all know businesses or businesses. Numbers are essential in the business world, right? We're always communicating numbers, stock prices, whatever, right? So the story is I went to my cardiologist for a checkup as those of us over 50 have to do. And I went through the EKG and this test and that test and my cardiologist, not my regular one who had gone to a couple times before, but the new guy filling in, came in, takes out my numbers and my results. And he says, based on your test results, you have a 5% chance of having a heart attack within the next 10 years and I started getting weak in the knees and shaky. I thought I was gonna pass out. I was like, a depth. I said, Wait, wait a minute. Does that mean that there's a 95% chance that I won't have a heart attack? Yeah, yes. He said, Yeah, these results are amazing. Great. You're imperfect. shape and you have nothing to worry about. And your results are exactly normal forgot a mountain no age now your age, and this whole thing like, that would have been like the way to start off the conversation. Right? So what he did and this was the highlight what the light bulb moment for me the numbers he gave were not inaccurate. They were correct. But was that the message he intended to convey? Not at all right. So often in the business world, whether you're presenting quarterly results, or speaking to the media or stock report, whatever, we give numbers, but without context, and without the story, the digits are basically meaningless, right? Like if I said you ever to 50 average, is that good or bad? Well, it depends. If it's bowling, it's great. If it's baseball, or softball, it's not that great, right? So the number 250. Without the context in the story doesn't tell you anything. But so often, we bore just like before we turn a boring people to death with PowerPoint slides that are filled with bullet points and texts, we bore people to death with numbers, right? It doesn't matter if it was 20.1234 or five, it's about 20%. Right. So round things off, use the graph, use a visual image, you start with what's the message I want to convey and the story I want to tell to bring. And then you can always provide the numbers as a backup later on. If you present Excel spreadsheets to people for a living, it'd be I think, you've just boring people. And I'd be like example of this as a former client, who was a CFO, he was always known as being the most boring part of the company, town hall. And then he went through presentation, skills training, got rid of the numbers and started being a better storyteller, the people were captivated by a story and they got the message, he got the message across in a meaningful and memorable way that the numbers just didn't convey. But as a numbers guy, he didn't see that before until people brought that to life. So he needed to see the numbers through the lens of his audience, and then tell a story that would resonate. So that's the that's my cardiologist story.
Greg Voisen
Well, it's cardiology, doesn't matter any doctor, I have a good friend, Dr. Steve Berman, here locally, who's hypnotherapist, but also was an emergency room doctor for 20 some odd years. And, and he wrote a book called Healing beyond pills and potions. And he, when I would come in to see him, he would always say, you know, the bedside manner of most doctors has not been about giving you the positive news first. But the reality is, is that just in your case, if that doctor had learned how to reframe how he put that across to you, you would have received the positive, you know, you have a 95% chance of not having a heart attack versus a 5% chance of having a heart attack. And you know, it is because that also affects your body's kind of went on a call response mechanism as well. Right? You can go into shock, you said you were shaky at the knees, because he told you, you had a chance. And the other way you could walk out encouraged and enthusiastic about what you can do. And Steve was really good at that. I mean, he's really good at doing that. And he says, he's trying to teach other doctors how to convey messages to their patients, so that they understand and get it better. Now, like we've talked about a lot of things we've done your dad's story, we've done the drawbridge, your formula, the pink spoons, we've had a lot of content here, speak with their listeners, if you would about the journey. And your reference to what you look, calling in the rearview mirror versus the dashboard versus the windshield. And what advice would you give our listeners about pulling over two reflect on what they need to do to realize their leadership vision? You know, it's like this is this is kind of our final question. But the reality is, hopefully you can pull all this together.
Todd Cherches
Yeah, yeah, the metaphor, the leadership journey is central to my classes, my coaching and my workshop. So picture, you're in a car, right? There are three things to look at. There's more than that. But let's say three, you have the windshield, the rearview mirror and your dashboard, right? The windshield represents the future. It's about the road ahead. It's about you may see blue skies, up to the horizon, but you don't know what's over the hill, right. So just as a leader, you have a vision of the future, you have a destination in mind, but you don't know what's beyond what the eye can see. But part of being a leader is to prepare for that and have a vision that's inspiring and compelling. So that's the windshield metaphor. The rearview mirror is about the past. It's about who we are, where we came from how we got here, but also reminds us metaphorically that we need to look in the mirror and reflect on who we are and how we are as leaders, right? So often, we're so busy, that we don't get feedback, we will look at ourselves in the mirror and say how did I do in that meeting in that presentation? How am I being seen by my employees, etc. So that mirror represents both where we came from and who we are today. And the dashboard is about metrics, right? How do you measure success? Right, and it's not so having a balanced scorecard kind of approach is not just about having your fun Annual numbers, but it's about employee engagement and retention. It's about whatever metrics you use in your business and in your life to gauge how well you're doing. That is your dashboard. So here's the key, we want to be focused on the road ahead and the windshield and the future. Because we know if you drive looking in the rearview mirror, you're going to do what, drive off the road or had an oncoming car, right. So if you're dwelling on the past, while you're heading into the future, it's not going to get you there safely. And similarly, you want the numbers to help you reflect Peter Drucker said, if you can't measure it, you can't manage it, right. So you need to have some metrics by which to gauge your success and your performance. But again, if you're driving, while just looking at the numbers, you're gonna go off the road. So you want to focus on the road ahead and your vision, but you want to also glance at your metrics and pull over some times and take some time for reflection. So that's the short version, then you can talk about, do you have air in your tires? And are you on the right road at all, and that's the whole expanded version. But in a nutshell, which is another four, by the way, that is the past, present, future version of the leadership journey,
Greg Voisen
that's a metaphor is fantastic for everything in life, right. I used to have a friend that would say, stay in the now right, and I have it here on my desk, because rom Das was on the show, before he passed away, and you know, I think that's an important element you're talking about. Because yesterday is a canceled check. Tomorrow is a promissory note, right? We don't know whether we're going to have either of those, right. So when you're driving your car, it's good to look at the measurements in the gauge and look forward into the mirror and see what was behind you as well. But you've got to do it and pull it over. And the most important point I think, is kind of pulling over to kind of realize where you are, right. And like you said, there could be a whole other story here about having the right GPS or the map or where we're going to direct
Todd Cherches
you in the driver's seat or you're in the passenger seat. Sometimes as a leader, the best thing you could do is let someone else drive right, move on, obligate and let them step on the gas. And that's how you develop the next generation of leaders, right. And anyone who's ever taught anyone else to drive can knows that metaphor firsthand how scary that could be, and how you have to give up some of your own power to empower someone else. But that driving metaphor is a good one. And sometimes you let someone else navigate and drive and you sit in the backseat, right? So where you are just within that car is situational. Right? So that's another aspect of the leadership journey metaphor,
Greg Voisen
driver training one on one. Thank you for taking us on a driver training here about visual leadership for all my listeners. Here's the book, Todd Cherches, you can just go to Todd Cherches that’s c-h-e-r-c-h-e-s.com, or the big blue gumball we'll put that in the link as well. We've also put a link to the book on Amazon. Todd, it's been a pleasure having you on inside personal growth and you sharing some of your wisdom today with my listeners about visual leadership, and so much more. It was really informative and thank you for your time. I really appreciate it. Namaste to you.
Todd Cherches
Thank you.
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Inside Personal Growth with Greg Voisen · Podcast 994: From Chaos to Coherence (The Power to Change Performance) with Bruce CryerJoining me for this podcast is Bruce Cryer. He is known as a renaissance man because of a four-decade career as a Singer, Actor, Dancer, Publisher, Author, Marketing Executive, CEO, Board member, Consultant, Mentor and Coach for Leaders in diverse fields. Today, we’re going to talk about about a book he co-authored with Doc Lew Childre back in 2000 entitled From Chaos to Coherence (The Power to Change Performance).
Bruce also is one of the original directors of HeartMath – one of the world’s foremost authorities on emotional physiology, workplace stress and optimal employee performance. He has been involved in creating programs, products and services that can change the world by transforming health and well-being and fostering healthy sustainable workplaces.
As mentioned, Bruce is also an author/publisher. One of his good-to-read books is From Chaos to Coherence (The Power to Change Performance) co-authored by Doc Lew Childre. The book includes well-documented examples, biomedical research and organizational case studies show how to become more effective and reduce stress. It also introduces Inner Quality Management(r) (IQM) which has four dynamics: Internal Self-Management, Coherent Communication, Boosting Organizational Climate and Strategic Processes of Renewal.
If you want to learn more about Bruce and his works, you may click here to visit his website.
I hope you enjoy my engaging interview with Bruce Cryer. Happy listening!
You may also refer to the transcripts below for the full transciption (not edited) of the interview.
Interview Transcipt -Not EditedEmailDownloadNew TabGreg Voisen
Well welcome back to Inside Personal Growth. This is Greg Voisen and the host of Inside Personal Growth. And all of you out there in podcast land know me, but you don't know the other gentleman either on the other side of the screen, or he's going to speak to you on the audio side, if you're listening audio only, and his name is Bruce Cryer. Good at Inverness, how you doing?
Bruce Cryer
Good to see you, Greg. I'm doing really good today.
Greg Voisen
Well, it's good to see you. And we're playing formality here. But I've known Bruce for at least 15 years, introduced to me through Gary Malkin, for many of you who know him, and I'm gonna let you know a bit about Bruce. He's been called the renaissance man because of his four decade career as a singer, actor, dancer, publisher, author, marketing executive CEO, board member, consultant, mentor and coach for leaders in diverse fields. He now brings his expertise and passionate for Renaissance living and working to a select group of clients each year. He is diverse and fascinating background leading successful companies and performing for large audiences blends beautifully to create powerful, creatively rich and results driven approach with all those that he chooses to work with. Music, Dance, meditation, and fun will definitely be involved. So if you want to know more about Bruce, because he's got a very, very long bio, I'm gonna say, go to bruce cryer, cryer.com, to learn more about him. And in the process, he said he was an author, we're going to be speaking about a book that he wrote back in 2000, but then got reprinted a couple of times, one in 2008. And the book is as timely today, as it was in 2008. So for all of you, Bruce was the former CEO of Heart Math, Inc, we will put a link to that on the blog, so that you know who HeartMath is, many of you who are listening already know who Heart Math is. But he was the CEO of the company. So Bruce, if you would tell the listeners a bit about your history with Heart Math, which they think is important, and why you and Doc children wrote, from chaos to coherence. And again, for my listeners, we'll put a link to the book. You can get it on Amazon for 1799. And we'll have a link to the book up there.
Bruce Cryer
Great, Greg? Well, HeartMath began in 1991. As a nonprofit research institute, the founder is a man named doc children who I met in 1980. So 11 years before HeartMath, officially began as an organization. I met him in California where I was living at the time, I was very intrigued with his ideas of humanity and the heart and whatnot. But didn't know there was an organization he was thinking of establishing at some point. I lost track of him as you did back in those days when there was no email, no cell phones, no text messages, no nothing. It's hard to believe that Bureau existed. So he was just gone for like six years. And I had to take care
Greg Voisen
of our own GPS system. We knew how to find them again, you know what, you know what I mean? It was kind of like, I know where this person would hang out. He'll be over here, this coffee shop.
Bruce Cryer
All I knew is somewhere in North Carolina is where he lived. So that wasn't up to me. I was not I was not your North Carolina. But anyway, he had been working for years, on himself and then with a small group of people developing ideas about the heart and had had had an intention at a certain point to establish an institute all around the study of the heart, and Fort fortunately for me, the town I was living in, in the bay area of Northern California was the town he wanted to start the organization. And so I already lived there. Yay on me. And there were a number of others of us in the original starting found that Santa Cruz, Santa Cruz Mountains there's a little town where HeartMath still based called Boulder Creek, California. Yep, yep, I
Greg Voisen
know. Well, yeah. And gorgeous
Bruce Cryer
paradise kind of place in Redwood Forest and meandering rivers and only 30 minutes from the Pacific Ocean. So it's a unique and wonderful place to live, as I did for a long time. But the vision of HeartMath back then was that we wanted to use mainstream science to validate theories about human the human condition that had been known for centuries, millennia by religious systems, Chinese medicine, Ayurveda, spiritual systems that revered the heart and every ancient system. It was only the last 150 years, that the MC the mechanist the industrialists, the Reductionists of the of Europe decided everything's just a machine a fantastic machine in the hearts nothing more than a pump, a fantastical pump at that. But that was it. And so we felt there was this huge disconnect humanity. Knowing intuitively the heart was essential, not just because it was a pump. And yet science coming along and saying it's just a pump, don't get don't the ancients were cute. They were we can, we can revere some of what they said. But they clearly did. They clearly got it wrong when it came to the heart. So that was sort of the attitude and science and we knew that was wrong. We just knew, you know, you, when you when you're when you're not putting your heart and your job you don't do well, when you're not putting your heart into a relationship. You're not you don't do well, when you're as a kid, your parents say, hey, Bruce, go back out there and just sing with your heart this time. They didn't mean sing with your pump, as opposed to my kneecap. You know, they meant the essence of me that the courage of me the strength, the beauty of me, you know, so we knew there was something really off. But we also knew if we didn't take a mainstream scientific approach to this, we would have no more credibility than every other self-help system coming out of California, which like the world needed another one, right? So mainstream science was the route. And that was not easy. But we were getting quite successful through the decade of the 90s. So the intention was to be able to use mainstream science to validate kind of ancient spiritual principles, but at the same time, develop very simple techniques that weren't about spirituality, but could help a single mother, who's dealing with how do you do rent and working two jobs and caring for the two kids? And what how can you help that person deal with the stress of their life and live from the heart with that, that sending just idealistic or poetic and so simple, practical tools that anyone could use and apply in their in their world without a conflicting with whatever their beliefs about spirituality, or religion or non-religion they may have. So this was just a doctor, I loosely love the phrase HeartMath is a friendly facilitator. If you're an atheist, you tried
Greg Voisen
to take more of the Hayward pay neutral approach, even though you know it, there is a lot of spirituality in this, there's a lot of science in it. There's a lot of, as you call it, mind, body, or mind, gut and heart. Right. And, you know, in this book, you're bringing about coherence out of what increasingly seems what I'm gonna say, it seems crazy chaotic times right now, you know, it's like this world since 2008, where you and I and everybody else in it has changed, and it will continue to change. And it will be about our ability to thrive during this constant change. And we know that all can affect our heart. It affects our heart and affects our gut exir. Mind that affects our emotions. But it doesn't seem like as I said, a lot has changed. You wrote this book, and they look at it, and the things you were writing about are things that are still happening today. So what in your mind has changed or in your estimation, about the way we view healthy, high performing individuals? Now, for anybody out there listening? You could say, oh, well, that's only for an executive. Now, that's for everybody. We want everybody to be a healthy, high performing individual. And we want the organizations in which you work to be healthy in high performing organizations. And what is the new research because Bruce didn't just stay stagnant. He evolved to since 2008, may not have been 100% with Heart Math, but you really have evolved a lot. What would you want to tell the listeners about from chaos? decoherence?
Bruce Cryer
Wow, that's a great question. That's a that's also a big question. Well, the book was written at a time when and as you as you say, things were highly stressful, partly because the internet was still relatively new, tremendous disruption was happening. Do is only about a year or so after the book was first published that the.com meltdown happened, which, which meant for those of you really young listening, you know, there'd been this explosion of all everybody going online web companies galore being built, and we didn't really know what the business was gonna be like. It was kind of a crazy period. But things were exploding, exploding and expanding in ways you couldn't have predicted. Suddenly, email was a regular thing, let alone having a website. What do you mean, you don't have a website? What are you talking about there? You've Of course, you have to have a website 10 years earlier, you never even heard of the term website. And so things were rapidly changing. And it was around that same time that The World Health Organization declared that stress had become a global epidemic. And that was in 1991. A global epidemic it was so out of control and that we started learning words like corrosion, which meant death by overwork. And stories of, of Japanese middle level managers or workers literally dying at their desk, they couldn't quit, they couldn't go home until the boss went home with Boston, go home to midnight, some were actually dying at their, at their desk, it was just like horrific sounding stuff. And, and then, of course, we went through the 2008, the subprime home meltdown, that was a whole nother huge inflection point for business. But I think what we see today, which is so interesting is we now have an entire generation Gen Z's who grew up knowing the world of a smartphone, and grew up with apps grew up with social media as the way that they did business. And I think one of the biggest changes now not just about Gen Z, but about our how our how our lifestyle has changed. Now, of course, I'm on meetings on Zoom, way, way, way more often than I am meeting in person, the number of times I've seen people keep their screen off the screen, they keep their camera off the entire time. So in that meeting, they can be multitasking. And that wasn't nearly as easy. In the old days, when you were always in person, you would you'd get called out like, Greg, can you please put your computer down? You know, we need to stay focused here in the meeting. Well, now, we're multitasking all the time. And the attention spans are shorter and shorter and shorter. And so now 12 second video is considered that's great content, what can you give to me in 12 seconds, you know, and I used to do to date and that book was published, we're doing two day retreats on a regular basis. And it's kind of crazy. And I think the level of very high speed superficial, dealing with things is at an all-time high. And that's incredibly unsatisfying. When you're only at this level, you know, all the time, would you say,
Greg Voisen
would you say this feels more like, you know, when the internet came along, these are Greg's voices words, but we had a lot of breath. Because we could reach a lot of people through our website and our emails, everything else. But we kind of seem to have lost depth, meaning those personal relationships, so you know, talk about isolation. And you one of the biggest challenges as we went through COVID, you hadn't even mentioned COVID yet, but I'm going to bring it up was the fact that, you know, we've all spent like our two and a half year period here, hibernating behind these screens, this zoom in really didn't even exist very big until, you know, like the credit pandemic came along. And then it just escalated, so incredible. You know, it is a different world in that respect. And so I'd like for you to address as it relates to the heart, because there are lots of studies, what isolation is doing. And the fact that people aren't making as many deep meaningful connections?
Bruce Cryer
Well, I think one of the most profound markers of how that our attitudes have shifted, and it's and it's good is that the term mental health has lost a lot of its stigma. It's like all of a sudden, you're taking a mental health day, that's a sign that you're smart. All of a sudden, organizations, hospitals, corporations are dealing with mental health, not for the people that are extreme, or extremely, like almost suicidal, but for the average person, who thanks to COVID Thanks to the recession in high inflation, thanks to all the climate change the severity of storms, thanks to wars, thanks to having every day. Now let's shoot down something from the sky. Some Chinese are sending every day we're shooting them down now. Like what's going on?
Greg Voisen
Those aren't UFOs
Bruce Cryer
whatever they are shooting them down. I'm not sure which is worse than a UFO or Chinese spy. Yeah, even the pyramid Chinese spy balloon, it sounds kind of like a cartoon. Yes.
Greg Voisen
Yeah, that sounds that way. But at the essence of all this, because it does seem chaotic to so many people who maybe the coping mechanisms with inside them have not developed, you know, it's not like they read they intentionally retarded, but they had no way to really kind of figure it out and navigate. And so you know, we talk about this, these gaps between the classes, the uneducated or less educated, very well educated. What in your framework, do you believe could be done to close that? gap. And to close this divisive gap that exists not only politically, but racially, you know, I didn't really think or so I'm sitting out here in California and kind of a bubble sometimes that this racial division was so massive. And it still seems to be a real challenge.
Bruce Cryer
That's for sure. And I think with every new case of on, too often, it's of innocence, or an unarmed black man being mowed down by police. And that type of thing has happened so many times arrested for being black, you know, that that expression which every black child has heard, because they know that is absolutely possible that you could be walking down the street, you could be driving your car with nothing going on and arrested while being for being black. And, and so I think in all these cases, have reminded us just how deep seated so much of these habits and attitudes really aren't. I mean, I feel like I grew up in a very progressive home we were my father was a liberal Republican that at times such a thing actually existed. Yeah, he was socially, very socially, very progressive, but economically conservative. So he's all for government restrain fiscal restraint, but he was about all people, we're all we're all family here, not just not just whites. So I grew up in believing that and aspiring to be an example of that in my life. And yet, from time to time, I still find myself you know, if I see a young black guy in a hood, you're kind of walking a certain way, like, a little bit scared, like automatically assuming he's out to get me instead of he may have he may have lost his grandmother and his hers up because he's, he's, he's grieving me, you don't know, you have no idea. So I think we all even those of us raised believing we were not like all the other racists, we have, we have habits, we have underlying beliefs that can kind of rear their head from time to time, too. So I think it's a big issue at the core of the HeartMath work and something that, as you mentioned, I did leave as CEO back in 2011, and have always stayed connected. And I teach about it all the time. And I'm interviewed about it all the time, as I am again today. But at the core of Heart Math is this belief that love is the most important force in the universe. And we just wanted to try to prove that out scientifically. So we didn't just sound the sound like somebody on their on their little soapbox in in Central Park here, you know, we're no, no, this there's this grounded knowledge about why this is true,
Greg Voisen
I think is I think love is a great word. But I also believe compassion is, is maybe more encompassing word too, because, you know, if we're going to heal the challenges and ills of the world, it's going to require that people learn how to develop more compassion. And I think HeartMath actually gives us a way to do that. And, you know, you mentioned that our knowledge of human intelligence continues to deepen the fact that intelligence is distributed throughout the human system. Now, here's where this kind of shifts for my listeners. And at the heart, is the intelligent system profoundly affecting the brain processes now? Okay. You're saying it reversed what many people believe many people believe that it's the brain that's affecting the heart, not the heart, it's affecting the brain. Speak with the listeners about this connection? And what the studies of Heart Math revealed about the mind the gut, and the heart, the interconnectedness?
Bruce Cryer
Yeah, absolutely. Well, first of all, just to acknowledge, I appreciate you making the distinction of compassion, not just love. And I was about to say that actually, because love is the is the ultimate forcement. To me there. There are hues of love and compassion is extremely important and, and is absolutely at the core of the Heart Math system. And
Greg Voisen
as we do this podcast on Valentine's Day. Exactly, exactly. So you're doing this podcast on the right day.
Bruce Cryer
We are the so yeah, the whole notion of the heart centrality to the system is as I mentioned earlier, it's revered as the core of us, in every major culture of the world, every spiritual system, religious system, but especially in the West, especially in the last 100 years or so. The premise, the primacy of the brain has become the thing right? And we're all completely enamored with the brain because it is an incredible computer to see even to call it a computer is dissing it. Because it's so much more advanced than any possible computer that humans could ever build. As much as we want to romanticize about how amazing AI is, it's still not at any bringing close to what the human brain is capable of. But yeah, it's the old model we had of intelligence was smart computer, like the brain was the mainframe. And the rest of the body was kind of dumb. Just following commands the body, just like 40 years ago, smart, the mainframe computer was the only thing smart about an IT system and that lived in the basement of the company. And then on your desk, you just had terminals that could access certain bits of information from that mainframe, but it was the mainframe That was smart, the terminals were just TV screens. Gradually intelligent the research into intelligence revealed a gigantic nervous system called the gut brain in the gut 100 million or so neurons in constant dialogue between the gut intestinal tract and the brain upstairs. And then in the early 90s, another nervous system was discovered in the heart, having 10s of 1000s of what are called sensory neurites neurons, cardiac neurons in the heart, processing information locally for the heart, a little brain, it qualifies as a little brain, managing the affairs of the heart. And I don't mean that a romantic says, in a biological sense. And then when it was when the pathways of inflammation were looked at carefully, it was discovered that the heart is sending four times more information north to the brain than the brain is sending down to the heart. Because the heart is doing all kinds of things, is processing information. It's producing electrical signal, it's a sensory system, responding to sensory information from the environment that could be smells, temperature, light, all kinds of things getting registered in the heart, hearts, also hormonal gland. We've heard a lot over the last decade or so about oxytocin, also known as the love hormone to the mothering hormone, guess where that's produced, not only the brain produced in the heart. So suddenly, over the last 30 years, the heart sort of began to come out of its shell, in our awareness, like, oh my god, this is an incredible Oregon This is not just a pump, those doctors that wanted to dumb everything down to a just a machine, like the humans being it's just a machine. Sorry, that analogy isn't this not working. And then, of course, it was discovered that the intelligence of all kinds exists all through the body. And even memories aren't just storing memories doesn't happen just in the in the brain. Like, we want to neatly believe, Oh, that's the section of the brain where you store memories. And that's, you know, when heart transplant started happening, and doctors started reporting more and more and more and more, and these are all well documented examples in many, many books and articles, that when you get a transplanted heart, for a period of time, could even be years, some of the memories of the donor come into the recipient. So wild stories of that have emerged where the actual memories have come over. And suddenly that person who loved Big Macs and Slurpee as their favorite food has a craving for wine and, and oysters and like what you want what honey?
Greg Voisen
Yeah, no, no, no, no,
Bruce Cryer
I feel like white wine and fulfill me. And they jack it down, and the donor loved that and they want all this juice, some classical music, classical music. What about Johnny Cash? That's
Greg Voisen
What rockin’? Yeah, what? Well, you know, it all makes sense, because this web of cells and intelligence that are part of our body are all interrelated. And you refer to Heart Math, as the inner quality management, you know, I wanted to kind of make sure we speak about that. And it always it comes down to this inner quality they would have, what would you or can you address these four interdependent and integrated dynamic? What you were referred at HeartMath to IQ M. And why it's the cornerstone for this what's what you referred to in the book again, as internal self-management, right? Because, look, we, we perceive things through our eyes and our retina, we feel things we taste things. We take these in through all these various senses. And the sensory can be an overload when we're when we get stressed, right. And we don't know how to like, maybe deal with it. I know that there are days that I get there, like I'm like, oh my god, one day One thing, I don't really need one more thing. So I encourage you to share with our listeners is Air Quality Management and afford dynamics?
Bruce Cryer
Yeah, sure. Well, it's something that we've used a lot for, for many years now as in working with organizations who are intent to become more profitable, and intent to give two new tools to their employees to work more efficiently and work more effectively. And more and more, that is also meant you got to you can't ignore the health of the of the individual employee. This is where COVID has done us a big favor. Like I said earlier, mental health has come out of the dungeon. It's not just a term for the people who can't hack it. This is now everybody. This is now major Olympic athletes saying I can't compete in the Olympics. And I'm stepping down from my mental health world champion tennis players saying the same actors saying the same, acknowledging I'm overloaded, I can't, I can't go on like this, I have to stop and take care of myself. And luckily, that has seeped into corporations and realizing well, we all went through COVID together all a billion of us. So it's no wonder that a lot of us would be feeling pretty frickin’ overwhelmed. And some of us are excited to be going back from the office, and not all and others are not, you know, that's overwhelming. And now I gotta go back. And I gotta commute every day, on top of everything else. So there's overwhelming significance. So we've always believed that, for any organization to get healthier long term, you have to focus on the individual health of the individual. And the individual coherence, the term Heart Math has loved and is used for almost 30 years now, the coherence of the individual, the degree to which that person feels aligned between their mind their emotions, why they're even at work, why they're even doing the job they have the reader, which you feel aligned, is a lot about dispersed dynamic we call internal self-management. So we're saying, to get to be effective in your job to, for a leader to say for my team to be effective for my company to be effective, my hospital to be effective, we've got to make sure my team, our front, our front, people have the tools to manage themselves in these crazy and challenging times. So that's a set of techniques and scientific research, comprising that module we call an internal self-management. In every dynamic of any of life today, communication is more challenging than ever. I haven't any number of friends who prefer to do only texting. They don't even they say I don't speak on the phone, I don't use the phone. You don't speak on the phone, like ever. Oh, no, no, I don't I prefer texting, I prefer to feeling the depth that of a text and think wow, that is like upside down world compared to me to me gotta be on fours or is like at Texas just feels so inadequate. But the point is, it is more challenging than ever for communication to be coherent. And so we were our view is that just as an individual needs to feel aligned, in order to be authentic and be the most effective version that can be at themselves, you've got to bring that to every conversation as well. So skills to be in a coherent enough state, you can truly listen, which is why the constant multitasking that every button and not everybody that so many people are doing these days is so inefficient. I was in a meeting that long ago, where I was talking about a decision that was made in a meeting with myself and two other people. And it was it was a maybe 15 minute conversation, that meeting and one person denied we'd even never talked about that, let alone have we come to a decision. I thought oh my god. I mean, I remember at the time thinking I wasn't sure she was really in the conversation, she would she seemed to be typing and looking kind of away from her camera most of the time. But sure enough, she hadn't been present at all, she completely missed 15 minutes of a conversation while seemingly being there. So that's super incoherent communication that had just that gap. And her had significant consequences for the organization that she had no memory of that even happening. That's just one tiny example of the incoherence that goes on. And it's more challenging than ever, because we're in a world of 12 second videos now. And so if it can't be said, super quick in chat shorthand, yeah, I don't have time for it is the attitude. And so that leads to mistakes, that leads to misunderstandings that leads to hard feelings. And so coherent communication is a whole module of kind of retraining ourselves to these relationships at work, let alone at home are meaningful to different degrees.
Greg Voisen
Well, when you look at you look, Bruce kind of on that if somebody is working in the corporate world, or they're working for themselves, it doesn't matter, but they're working and then they have their personal life. And they look at the, quote, demands they put on themselves because they're an achiever. You know, what I find is, you know, between balancing aiming for everything from balancing the checkbook to balancing the kids to balancing the work the reason I use three balanced things and that is because the body itself this this Mind, Body Spirit wants to seek more homeostasis I Four I find and more people who are out of balance. You know, we used to call it work life balance right? wasn't that long ago. Now it's not really being referred to as much as work life balance. There's, there's a new term today it's like getting in touch with your, your emotions, what would you say because you state putting the emphasis on learning how to deal effectively with workplace and personal problems will create more coherence in the individual. Okay? You state that coherence is efficiency in action. I agree. If you would speak to listeners about the importance of coherence, and how this affects us mentally, emotionally, spiritually, because you know, you, you are saying, hey, if this imbalance happens to be chaos, and um, for many people listening, they have plenty of days of chaos, right. And when they come home at night, they're hoping for this refuge of some way to balance to bring back some peace and harmony and, and whatever, and then to sleep so that they can, so they can wake up the next day and do it all over again, right. So address a coherence thing as it relates to that.
Bruce Cryer
Well, first of all, just to give a little bit of a definition. coherence in physics, is a word that describes how a laser can take a light source and turn it into a beam that is incredibly tiny and incredibly precise enough to repair a retina of your eye. So that's coherent light, so that the light that emits from a laser, the particles and waves are completely coherent, they're completely lined up, there's nothing distracted, there's nothing disrupted or disordered about that light source. So it's incredibly focused. A regular light, like there's a light illuminating me and in the room, all of these are considered incoherent light. So a physicist would look at the light itself comes out, and it's kind of bouncing into each other. It's not focused, it does exactly what it's supposed to do, which is not to try to repair retinas just illuminate the room, that's, that's fine. That's your job, just like the room to be to be a retina repair. That's a whole another qualification. That's it a lot of extra years and a lot of extra ability to focus. So we started looking at human physiology and emotional states, and hormonal and immune system, all these fun systems. And realize that coherence analogy was an excellent one to apply to us as people that we are capable of being in a coherent state. And psychologists like to call that flow, where you're in this beautiful flow state, everything is just kind of in a flow, and it feels super efficient. Time seems to stretch out like, great, that was three hours. That's crazy. It seemed like 20 minutes. And but you're also very effective and efficient. And athletes when they're in the zone. I'm Barry guy, a huge fan of Steph Curry, that guy, you know, he's just like, how was he able to do this, but he is so in a coherent state, that he pulls off the most miraculous moves and shots. And just like this, like effortless, it's not doesn't look like it's the hard work for him. Like, how is this humanly possible. But that's high level of coherence try analogy is that most of us are walking around, not like that. We're not operating like lasers, we're lighting a room. That's okay, that's better than nothing. We're not completely all the lights are turned out. But we're not even close to what we could be. And we've all had those moments. When we were in the zone, we were in a flow state. And so the work of hard math was to say that's a physiologically possible state to achieve. It's not that it takes practice, and it takes routine. And it's not just
Greg Voisen
not to interrupt you, but I've had Steven Kotler on here so many times the guy that founded flow Genome Project, and he's written all kinds of books on below and wonderful guy, but you know, I remember what he said while you're speaking right now, it always pops up. You know, he talks about the elements associated around getting into a state of flow because people are trying to hack flow. So he calls it hacking flow, but how can you really hack well? So people use Was I Alaska to hack flow is all kinds of things to try and get to this flow state. But one of the things he said that I think is important here is he said, focus is for free. Purpose, right. And so he has a whole list of things that really help your goals, your mission, all the things that you're trying to achieve. But when you have those in line, the focus literally comes in. And I think many people out there and this is also to relate to Heart Math. The reason that they feel like they're so chaotic, and me included, is if you're really curious, which I am, and then you start all these projects, and you get five or six different projects going because you're very curious and you're in it. It's good to be curious. The downfall of curiosity is the loss of focus. Okay. But until you find something you're curious about the generic passionate about the job and purpose aligned with that, you know, where you're headed that you've defined some goals in, it's very challenging. So if you would maybe address that, because I think at the heart of much of this is probably got a lot of people out there listening today, they're super curious. They might have five or six things going. And they're like juggling plates. And to get to that focus, they can't get to that focus, because they've got to spread too much energy in between four or five different things. Any comment on that?
Bruce Cryer
I'm sorry, I wasn't really paying attention. I My mind was drifting a lot of places. What was the point? Again? I'm joking.
Greg Voisen
It's okay. Sometimes my questions, sometimes my questions or comments, but the statement from Stephen again. You
Bruce Cryer
know, I was joking, Greg, I was joking, Greg, play on me talking about how I can't keep talking, but that was a joke. I got Yeah. Yeah, no, it's a great, great questions when I deal with all the time, too. And one, one quick story to illustrate. I was told several years ago, about 667 years ago, I had my human design chart done, which I won't go. Well, that means but it sounds like you're somewhat familiar. I'm very familiar with this gentleman. And he was telling me about my chart. And he said, and he's showing me this this chart, which was meaningless to me and all these numbers and symbols and all that stuff. They didn't know what any of it. They said, just look at it here. You're the most open person I've ever seen. I said, Okay, what is what is that? Is that good? Is that bad? And he's pointing out all these places where most people would have a certain way they would have to handle something. He said, You're wide open there. Look at this one right here. Most people would have been blah, blah, blah. He said, you are so open. And I said, okay, that that makes sense. To me. I do feel like I'm extremely open. I'm very curious. And I'm not afraid to be curious. I'm not afraid to explore something that has some level of interest for me. And if you look at my career, it's all over the place. I started out as a musical theater guy in New York City. And now for the last 25 years, I've been teaching on stress and performance and creativity at Stanford doesn't sound that linked, you know, wrote an article on executive health and stress for Harvard Business Review, is after the sound that connected, you know, so themes kind of all, it seems to others is kind of all over the place. And to me, there is a thread of all of it, I was all of it was related to the human the human condition, and how we can improve ourselves as humans. And I got a chance to explore that side of myself as an actor. But I think a challenge today for people who are genuinely curious, is to not just let that turn into mind fascination with as my friend get, as our friend Gary used often refers to as the next shiny object, you're only having interest long enough with something until the next shiny object comes along. Oh, let's check this one out over here. So it can what you refer, the downside of what you're talking about is a dilettante ism that just can't ever land on one thing. But I think I think there's, it's very important as I've grown spiritually, as I've just gone through more and more life, the importance of being open. That doesn't mean just buying everything either but it means receiving information from all kinds of sources, including weird ones that you can explain, like, where did that thought come from? And being open to maybe there's truth in that maybe that voice I don't, I don't hear voices, maybe that voice that I heard, had something I really need to pay attention to. And but guided with that is because of the nature of our society of kind of tossing us around, you know, and we get lost in scrolling on Instagram or lost on Tik Tok. I don't use tick, tick, or lost doing whatever that is. We don't have a core of some kind of daily practices, rituals that are anchoring us back to just us without trying to do anything. But just us, the being that is trying to grow and evolve, I am a curious person, I will always be that way that's going to help keep me humble always going to be that way that's gonna keep me young. But if I don't meditate in the morning, if I don't do practices to quieten that part of me that can get pulled into this and pull it into that and thinking, man for your age, you're awfully cool with today's culture, I say, Yeah, cuz I'm curious. And there's a lot of good stuff out there. There's a lot of BS, too, of course, but I stay curious. So but, but the curiosity and all that energy without a core to help sort it out and help get the guidance of well, what of all these possibilities makes the most sense for me, at this stage of my life? Well, and that's what I take,
Greg Voisen
I think meditation, yoga, gratefulness, practice, all there's a lot of things you can do. But all of those are grounding practices to keep Bruce and Greg where they need to be, you know, I find a lot of similarities and, and, and who we are as individuals. Exactly. And, you know, part of the book addresses this freeze frame technique, and it was developed while at Heart Math, tell the listeners, what it is, and give us an example of how it can be used daily to help us control stressful issues in our life. Because, you know, the listeners right now have been hearing us talk, they're still dealing with their shit. And they're saying, Well, if you have something for me to ground, give me something that will ground me. And I guess reframe would be it, right?
Bruce Cryer
Yeah. Yeah, freeze frame, as the name implies, is a stopping of the action. So part of the idea we realized in trying to help people deal with stress is, the problem was stress is the reaction you're having to it, the stress or is could stress you out, might not stress somebody else out the issue is yours is your reaction to it. So with the idea of spraying, our belief was if you can stop yourself enough to recognize what you're feeling right now, like, I'm pissed off right now. I'm super freaked out right now, I'm really worried, right? acknowledged the stress and recognize the stressful feeling. And then take some action, like imagine you could stop and just pause it. And then step back. And then you take some breaths it with a Heart Math Practice, it's always breathing as though you could breathe through your heart. And we'd found out through our research that around a 10 second rhythm around five seconds as you breathe in, and around five seconds, as you breathe out, is an optimal rhythm for your body, your body loves that rhythm, it's a really comfortable, if you're older, that may be a little too slow, four and four is fine, three and three is fine. But the idea is to regulate your breath. So you're drawing it in through the heart and then letting it go out through the heart. And this action of just stopping and starting to breathe is starting to already sort of neutralize what the reaction that you just had. And then. So our view is you got to kind of stop, you got to take some action, or you got to have enough awareness in the moment. Or even if it's after the fact, to stop, stop the reaction, pause, breathe through the heart, and then try to find any positive feeling. Gratitude, compassion, fun, joy, peacefulness, any, anyone which can shift your state even more so out of the reaction. And then from that standpoint, this all happens pretty quickly as you as you practice this, this is not a drawn out five minute process, right? Then then you allow your mind to kind of scan or what are some options here? Oh, I need to talk to this person. We need to have an actual conversation, not because we're just screaming at each other right now. Or, you know what, wow, I'm doing something that's that keeps irritating this other person. I need to look at myself right now. I need to you know, so the process of First of all, recognizing the stressful feeling you're having, and being honest about what are you feeling right now? I'm feeling this is very unfair, feeling very irritated. Then saying, okay, breathe right now. Right now. Breathe. Oh, and by the way, part of that HeartMath research is in that moment, that you're feeling a stress reaction, a research study in the early 90s that somebody else did not even Heart Math, showed that that reaction by his biochemically produces a chain reaction of 1400 biochemical events, just from that initial moment of I'm pissed off and worried I'm freaked whatever it is. So that's what you're stopping. You're saying well, I
Greg Voisen
guess I don't know that you know, as a result of us getting in that state of anger, frustration rage. You know, we do stupid things, right, we can do stupid things, we'll say things we may act inappropriately, we may do all kinds of things, which could have some long term lasting effects on us as individuals. And I think the freeze frame technique, and for all of you, definitely look it up, just type it in Google, you're gonna find it, you can also reference it in this book, The technique is outlined, Bruce just outlined it really well. It's more than just taking a deep breath, as Bruce is explaining, because it's also repositioning yourself as to what how you could respond or take some action, right. And that's one of the keys here. But again, from chaos to coke coherence, the coherence is really going to be brought about by you taking these actions with freeze frame, and other tools you can use, whether it's meditation, or yoga, or freeze frame or, or, or heart rate variability, it's looking at it on your phone, whatever it says you can actually measure what's going on and really determine what you're doing here. So I remember going way back, I was having anxiety attacks that were very debilitating. And I ended up going to Scripps Clinic, and we're way out. And they put electrodes on my head. And I always thought it was something outside myself it was causing it until I actually saw the brainwaves being measured about what I was doing to myself. And I think what this allows you to do is take a deep look at what you're doing to yourself, nobody outside of you did this the person who made the created the angry remark, it was your reaction to that angry remark that got you upset, you know, you have to let go of that. And that being said, I want to talk about two more things before we wrap up this interview. What is this thing called perception and out people in life that have learned how to successfully manage their emotions RIA reactiveness can neutralize and transform the negative emotions because that's exactly what we're talking about negative emotions, and this perception? How do we rewire our brains to better manage stress? Well, one of the key or humbles
Bruce Cryer
question? Yeah, how do we rewire our brainstem? Yes, that's a small question, I can answer that in five words.
Greg Voisen
Freeze Frame.
Bruce Cryer
With a lot of practice, that was six words. The one important thing for you to understand. So while we said earlier that heart is sending way more inflammation north to the brain than the other way around. That's not to say the brain isn't still managing a massive amount of the of the body. That's its job. And one of the key ways it does that is through the autonomic nervous system, also called ans, autonomic meaning automatic. And so the brain has the system that can regulate heart rate, it can control respiration, it can control secretions in your GI tract, it can control basically 90% of the processes in your body. That's where the autonomic system does, and you never have to consciously think about it. So the autonomic system, autonomic nervous system is literally your subconscious mind. Right? So when we have any kind of trauma, I had no abuse as a child, I had a few things happen to me as a child, but not abuse by a human those things stored and they get stored in the memory associated with the subconscious, the autonomic system, which is which is designed to prevent death from happening, you know, the fight flight response is, is to protect you. However, every time we are traumatized by anything, even a fear with no justification whatsoever, it's still stored unless it somehow gets released, that chemical reaction that was so intense in our body does get stored doesn't just evaporate, unfortunately. And so that's why trauma is so hard to get through. And but when we start to realize, wait a minute, this is actually our subconscious mind. So that's still the mind. And so we have to build new circuitry. This is the work of Heart Math, but also people like Dr. Joe Dispenza, that we have to build kind of the positive neural circuitry of enough positive experiences of gratitude of appreciation of joy to help counteract the negative loop that perception loop that it's easy to get stuck in. Because if we just have something that vaguely reminds us of that trauma that happened five or 10, or 15 years ago, there we go getting triggered again, there's the 1400 biochemical responses again, our body is being flooded in the biochemistry of fight flight, this is a danger to my existence, even though it was an email, only write the word then living with the consequences of that. And that colors, our reaction to the next event that happens, and we bring that, that into the next meeting that we're about to have. And then something happens in the meeting. And we're extra angry, because we never dealt with the thing that happened in the phone call before the meeting. And so it becomes this loop, where we stay stuck feeling victimized by that guy, and that guy, and her, and oh, and my Oh, and my father, oh my god, you know, so all these things keep keeping us locked over there. In that negative cycle, when it escalates. In order to get out of that you need to you need to have a way of stopping that that picture. That's what freeze frame is designed to do. So we can start to build the new habits and new circuitry, of hopefulness of being grateful for all the good things you do have in your life, in spite of that one awful person who, who is the bane of your existence?
Greg Voisen
Yeah, you, you have a tendency, and I know I've done this, everybody out there listening has done it, you start to focus on one small little thing that can escalate into something very large, because it now is dominating your whole system, because you have a belief that it's not right or something is you can't justify it, because your systems don't know how to justify it, it's kind of in the best way, I would say that, then you allow that to manifest itself into a chaos, not coherence chaos. Because if you address it, and you address it correctly, through coherence, with focus, and get it resolved, and get it out of the way, it doesn't dominate the mind for more and more stress. And I think that's what you need to look at this book, this is what you do. Look, let's wrap up the interview, leave the listeners with some words and tips of wisdom and advice for you from chaos to coherence, what can they immediately apply to their lives to make this journey that you and I had been talking about, from chaos to coherence. I don't want to use the word simpler, but make it a learning experience that can be repeated over and over and over again, so that they don't have to go down that what I want to call the challenging path. We've already got them challenges in their life. So don't what would you what three tips would you give our listeners as we wrap up this interview?
Bruce Cryer
Sure. Thank you for that question. Well, first of all, I would come back to that brief technique that we did earlier that the simple practice of bringing one's attention to the area of your heart, and just breathing that can happen during the phone call that can happen in the five minutes before you're about to start your next meeting. That can be happen that can happen when you step outside, oh my god feel that sunshine. And instead of just sitting there, breathe in and out for five seconds each way. Science determined research determined that that rhythm scald respiratory sinus arrhythmia is optimal for the human system. It's not just something Heart, heart math, arbitrarily said, Oh, want to try five seconds in five seconds out kind of works. For us. This is based on human physiology. So that practice of bringing the attention to the heart and then breathing gently in and out through the heart is very calming. And it can dissipate those 1400 mile chemicals quite a lot. If people just do that, and walk back inside like Wow, I feel a whole lot better. That hasn't solved the fact that you're still a reactive person reacting maybe too much. But it's starting to build new circuitry. I can take charge of this, I don't have to be victimized by the events of my day. So that's number one, the Heart Math calls at heart focus breathing, just bring the attention. They're trying to hold the attention there. And then we know that that does things biochemically into the heart to draw attention to it as drawing attention to any part of your body would also do. So that's number one. Secondly, I would say I have a line that I that I use called there can never be too much peace and love in a world starving for both. And it's my opinion in life and my mission in life, to be putting out as much peace and be loving as much as I possibly can. that sometimes that means compassion. So somebody was fired today at the University where I work. And it was somebody that was not a friend to me. I don't feel joy today, I'm relieved that I don't have that in my in my way anymore. But I wonder what she's going through. I wonder what her life is going to be like, no one wants to be terminated, no one wants that to have happen. So I instead of feeling joy, that that happened, I felt like compassion for what's good. What does this now mean? For her and her family, etc. And so think the ability to say I want to try to put love out even though it's hard, I want to feel compassion, even though I've I felt unjustly affected by that person for X reason or for X period of time. We all have our reasons for not being the highest version of ourselves. But if we try to do the good, act, be kind when it's not easy to be loving, when it's hard to be compassionate when you feel like well, no one's being compassionate for me. Well, try it anyhow. And who knows if that won't start to bring more back to you at the same time?
Greg Voisen
Yeah, I echo that, you know, an angry heart is not a good thing to have, and to have. And to have any kind of addiction towards somebody because of what may have come between the two of you or whatever, is not a good spot. I mean, to actually heal that. So that she's released, from the position with the opportunity to progress and send those kinds of thoughts and feelings to her is really important for you. Because then, you know, you haven't released her with malice.
Bruce Cryer
Right, exactly. Right. Exactly.
Greg Voisen
Yeah, I think if everybody did that, I know, it probably doesn't happen enough. But because people get into people's crawls, and they just don't know how to deal with it that way. Yeah. But I always echo back to I always echo back, very simply to, there's a banner on my wall over here. And the Dalai Lama says, In the end, you'll be remembered by how much you loved. How many people loved you, and how much you let go. And I look at that simple little statement, and I maybe got it wrong. I didn’t maybe get it exactly right. But my point is, you talk you started this podcast with love. I said, compassion. You said, it's the overarching part of compassion. And if we are going to heal as individuals and heal the world, it is about how much we love on this great Valentine's Day that we've got here. 2023 it's about how much others love us. And it's a how much we're able to let go as you just said, there's three, the malice that you might have, or the unforgiving attitude that you may carry about somebody into your own DNA that it affects your heart rhythms. Right.
Bruce Cryer
Yeah, all of that.
Greg Voisen
Anything to add on that? Or?
Bruce Cryer
Well, I'll just I love everything you just said thank you for the recap and how you essence that the only thing I would add is that the spirit of playfulness, I feel for us as individuals, let alone us as a species is essential that if we line up all the existential threats we have right now, it's pretty damn daunting. Just what any one of them. You know, it's like how we are going to get through that when and then we got all these others, and then we're shooting down Chinese spy balloons. You shouldn't be we're probably
Greg Voisen
Chinese.
Bruce Cryer
Doesn't sound like an idiot cartoon. It means Chinese spy.
Greg Voisen
Does. Well, Bruce anyways, tines day and every day I love you. Namaste to you. Thank you for being on inside personal growth. Thank you for sharing about a book which is timeless from a chaos to coherence. It's Bruce Cryer and Doc children, we'll put a link you can still get this book even though he said it's kind of out of print but at Amazon it's still up there. An excellent book for you to get also just go to Bruce Cryer cry er.com. To learn more about Bruce and what he's doing, Bruce, always an honor to speak Have you and a pleasure to have you on the show and have you share some of your many years of experiences at Heart Math and things that you've learned and the wisdom you've imparted upon our audience? And namaste to you, my friend.
Bruce Cryer
Namaste, Greg, I appreciate seeing you again. It's been great to reconnect lately and thanks so much. This is a great conversation.
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Inside Personal Growth with Greg Voisen · Podcast 993: Experiential Intelligence with Soren KaplanMy guest for this episode is award-winning author, Soren Kaplan. He just released another good-to-read book last January 24 entitled Experiential Intelligence: Harness the Power of Experience for Personal and Business Breakthroughs.
Soren is also an international keynote speaker and has led professional development programs for thousands of leaders around the world, including Disney, NBCUniversal, Visa, PayPal, among others. He has been recognized as one of the world’s top management thought leaders and consultants.
Soren’s debut book Leapfrogging was named “Best Leadership Book” and The Invisible Advantage received the “Best General Business Book” distinction by the International Book Awards. And just recently, he released another award-winning potential book entitled Experiential Intelligence: Harness the Power of Experience for Personal and Business Breakthroughs. This book reveals the psychological, sociological, and neurological forces that make us tick. It’s a guide to help us learn how to uncover our hidden assets, remove invisible barriers, and amplify our strengths.
If you’re interested and want to know more about Soren and his works, you may click here to visit his website.
I hope you enjoy my engaging interview with Soren Kaplan. Happy listening!
You may also refer to the transcripts below for the full transciption (not edited) of the interview.
Interview Transcipt -Not EditedEmailDownloadNew TabGreg Voisen
Hey, well welcome back to Inside Personal Growth. This is Greg Voisen, the host of Inside Personal Growth. And joining me from the Seattle Washington area is Soren Kaplan. And Soren was a guest on our podcast 11 years ago. And I will put a link to that one as well. So listeners know, but today it is Arne, how're you doing?
Soren Kaplan
I'm doing well. Nice to be here. Greg.
Greg Voisen
A, it's good to be with you. It's good to have you on the show. And for my listeners, it was leapfrogging Is that correct?
Soren Kaplan
That's right,
Greg Voisen
the prior book so we will put a link to that. Also, it's pretty easy to get to him. Just go to Soren s o r e n k p l a n.com. You can learn more about him His books, His speaking his media. I'm gonna let the listeners know a tad bit about you. Soren is an award winning author, former corporate executive founder of praxis.com, a columnist for Inc Magazine Psychology Today, an affiliate at the center of effective organizations the University of Southern California. He is an international keynote speaker and has professional development programs for 1000s of leaders around the world including Disney, NBC Universal, Visa, PayPal, Colgate Palmolive, Kimberly Clark, Medtronic, Roche, Hershey's Red Bull and many others. Business Insider and the thinker 50 have recognized Dr. Kaplan as one of the world's top management thought leaders and consultants. His works appeared at Harvard Business Review, Forbes Fast Company, CNBC and PR, strategy and leadership and the International handbook and innovation, and many other academic and popular business media. So we're gonna be talking with him today about his new book, and I'm gonna hold that book up, because I have it right here for my audience called experiential intelligence. Let's get a shot of that. And with my face, and the subtitle is harness the power of experience for personal and business breakthroughs. We'll put a link to Amazon, we'll put a link to his website as well. The cool thing about this book, too, is there's QR codes with little videos of him. And they're done very well. And I would encourage you, because you're not only going to be able to read the book, but then you're going to be able to get a little overview from Sauron himself. And those are there. They're well done. Soren. So thank you for that. I think that's an awesome way to go. So look, this book is a little bit of business, it's a little bit of personal growth, it's a little bit of psychology. It's a little bit of everything. But when you really roll it up, in the end, it's about how do we achieve or attain the successes that we want. And in the introduction, your book, you tell a personal story about your family life and how it impacted you. I'd love for you to relate your story for our listeners and the influence your childhood experience had on your adult behaviors, and why this story is so important to the topic of experiential intelligence. Because, look, you're saying all your experience, the sum totals of your experience are who you become and who you are. And some of them you may not like they're not serving. And some of them you may love. But so talk about your story and what our listeners can expect.
Soren Kaplan
Well, I grew up in the San Francisco Bay Area. And when I was three, my mother developed a mental illness. I was in a family that was very spiritual. And my parents had dropped out of Harvard, we had lived with rom Das, and who's also known as Richard Alpert for a little while, and then we bounced around the country and my father was working multiple jobs and rarely home. And by the time I was 15 years old, we had moved 16 times. So I had a lot of uncertainty in my life. And I think you could call it trauma. And I had to navigate a very difficult childhood. So that required later on down the line in my life for me to just do a lot of work on myself and kind of understand what was driving me some kind of subconsciously. And as I went through my own work, healing and development, I realized that a lot of the same things that traumatized me all So actually instilled some strengths and gifts at the same time. And things like being able to make decisions with very little data or be very flexible and pivot in new directions as things change and live with uncertainty in a way that allowed me to do some startups and help leaders change organizational culture, because I can see patterns and a lot of ambiguous data. And so my personal experiences gave me in my own development work gave me some insight, that then I was able to kind of marry on to a lot of the work experiences that I've had over time with the leaders from around the world. And I got some insights about how our experiences shape us, and how we can use them to learn, heal, grow, develop and achieve our goals.
Greg Voisen
Very well put, and, you know, it's not like people don't understand it, but frequently, they're not aware. So awareness, you know, Hey, your parents having lived with rom Das, and be here now, right? I actually interviewed him, and he's one of my podcasts. So I recognize that whole movement around Buddhism, and being here now, and not attaching to the outcome, and all of the kinds of things that were really kind of being taught in ashrams. And honestly, every one of them is good. It's I don't really see it as bad because a lot of it is really about how do I grow and develop? How do I be the best person I can be in this world? And you mentioned in the video, introduction to your first chapter, that in your opinion, experiential intelligence, is the missing key that we need to tap into to transform our lives. Can you define in the book, you give a definition of experiential intelligence, define what it is, and how this impacts our personal success in life.
Soren Kaplan
So experiential intelligence is really the combination of your mindsets, your abilities, and what you know how to do your know how your knowledge and skills and I think a simple example, I gave my personal story about kind of the things that I gained from difficult experiences. But I think that we all had experiences. It's just kind of our street smarts that we get over time, just through living life. A simple, easy example is, you know, if I asked you, Greg, what, how did you learn how to ride a bike? Was it your intellect? How much of your intellect was responsible for you learning how to ride a bike?
Greg Voisen
Probably very little. It was more my acuity my physical acuity. Yeah, like, I mean, because, you know, I ride a bike excessively now anyway. But when I was a kid, I remember the training wheels. I remember when my dad took off the training wheels as well, and how many times I fell. And so yeah, I do remember that experience.
Soren Kaplan
And so you learn to ride a bike, probably not by reading about it. But by trying it and doing it and having the training wheels and maybe taking off one of the training wheels being a little wobbly, and maybe falling over. And so eventually, you learned how to ride a bike, and you probably could get off that bike and get back on a year later and still know how to ride it. So it became part of who you are essentially, now. Yeah, and let's decipher that, because it's more than just knowing how to turn handlebars or brake. It's also higher order abilities around riding down the road and seeing a pothole and anticipating bumps and how to navigate or learning how to ride defensively in traffic. But it goes even beyond that, because what is a bike? Is it transportation, you can think about it like that. But it can also be a vehicle for social engagement and friendships and riding together or adventure, I ride a mountain bike. And so how your mindset around how you use it, or shapes how you might use it or think about using it. And so you've got multiple dimensions of what it means to ride a bike, as you hold it inside of you, your mindsets, abilities and your know how and so whatever those experiences are that we have in life, it they shape those three things. And I think the opportunity is to understand ourselves better in relation to what's important to us in relation to those three things that tie to the experiences that we've had.
Greg Voisen
Agreed. I mean, it's riding a bike much after you learn the initial step. It's very intuitive, right there. is, there's a lot of intuition in that, just like you were saying, the judgment calls you make about the potholes or riding in traffic or those kinds of things. And it becomes it starts to become like, you know, the mountain bike kind of second nature, right? So like, if there is, you just get on it, right it, you understand how to write it. And you don't always think about what the steps are, as a matter of fact, you hardly ever think about it, it's just there. So you mentioned that XQ provides a new lens from which to view what makes us who we are, and what makes our team in our organization, because your book is a business book is, as well. But it does talk about the individual having to find their way. Can you speak with the listeners about the three elements of experiential intelligence, because most of the listeners know Daniel Goleman. And they know the work of emotional intelligence. And then I had a lady on here talking about spiritual intelligence, that's another one. So there are a lot of these intelligences floating around there. And in your book, you actually take the Olympic rings and put them together rate of these intelligences but speak with the listeners about the three elements of x Q.
Soren Kaplan
We've known for a while or believed in our society, that our intellect is responsible for success in business. And I think in life to a certain extent, people have assumed that. And then we heard from Dan Goleman, about emotional intelligence in the 1990s, and recognize that our emotions, being in touch with them, and also being empathetic and understanding others’ emotions, and connecting to those is also a suspect success factor in relationships and leadership. And the world in the last 2025 years has become so disruptive, there's so much change, those two things really aren't enough to help us understand ourselves, nor what makes our teams tick. And our organizations work effectively. And so when I, when you think about what is it that can complement IQ and EQ, it's really your experiences that are those street smarts that we all have, that can complement those maybe innate gifts and to empathize. So that those three things come together and allow us to understand ourselves better, but then look at our teams and figure out if you're in an organization, what are the assets that everybody brings beyond just their brains and their empathy, but their life experience? Because maybe there's things that are untapped about just their life experience that we can learn from and leverage and use to achieve our goals.
Greg Voisen
Again, you know, well put it is true, that these experiences that we have, can shape who we are and can shape us for the better. Once you realize that, I think much is going on in the subconscious. You mentioned that earlier. And as long as somebody's working on that, and I know I introduced you to Dr. Brian Ullman, that ace things, adverse childhood experiences, you were talking about the fact that it was tough childhood to a certain degree for you in the introduction video to chapter two, and again, for my listeners, get the book and put your phone over the QR code. Go ahead and watch Soren. You speak about EQ, IQ and how this has been touted as the predictive indicator of our success? Yes, it has. You state that this is partially true, but that our x q is probably the biggest indicator of our success in life. If you would talk to the listeners about the three complementary intelligences, and how they work together, like the three intersecting rings of a circle.
Soren Kaplan
Yeah, the so those three dimensions, IQ, EQ and execute, I look at XQ as an experiential intelligence. I look at the as all three very complementary and intersecting. And so with that, though, I would say that you know, my example of riding the bike it you know, how much empathy do you need to learn how to ride a bike? How much intellect do you need to learn how to ride a bike, it's a lot about experience. And you can read books also, I mean, read books about it or technology or other books about how to do things. It's usually the experience of doing it. That embeds that way of being in use. So you really embrace it, this experiential learning, really. So when you look at your experiences and your experiences that you've had, you can look at what are the experiences that had the greatest impact on you, and how that shaped your mindsets, in your abilities in your know how. And when you look at those things, income concert with your IQ and your EQ, it gives you just a more holistic picture of what's making you tick. And maybe what you have to really access to achieve your goals or maybe what's making you tick and what might be able to work on as well to kind of take yourself to the next level.
Greg Voisen
You know, when it when you explore self, we all know that that's one of the largest areas where we can look as long as we're aware, in other words, so I come back to this thing of awareness. If you're not aware that what you're actually doing is not serving you, or it's not serving you for the highest and best good, you need to have this high level of awareness. So however you get there, whether it's meditation, or walks in the park, or, or you're going out on a jog or you're riding your bike, or you're contemplating any of those things are going to create a heightened sense of awareness, to give you time to think about your thinking. I remember saying this before, and there is a term for that. Thinking about your thinking. But the other thing is, I remember in spiritual psychology course, we used to say, you don't have to believe everything you think. Now, you know, because the reality is sometimes we have a thought, we think it again, it starts to become a belief. And everybody said, Oh, well those beliefs are permanent, think the beliefs are not permanent. In my humble opinion. It's something you carry with you to either protect yourself, because that's what you think you're doing in this hole is so true when working with teams, and working in business. So in chapter three, you speak about the psychology of experience and how these elements have influenced us. Can you speak with our listeners about creating greater awareness underline of our experiences and how to use our knowledge to make a significant shift in what we believe about our life. And also speak about how not being aware of these experiences affects our personal mental and physical health.
Soren Kaplan
Big question, let me give it a shot. You know how to go deep and I appreciate that.
Greg Voisen
It's okay, you can have a one sentence answer.
Soren Kaplan
Number 42 is the answer.
Greg Voisen
no, but it is a big question. I get it. And sometimes I compound them. But the reason I do that is I'm trying to get you to relate to my listeners that way. So I think it'll be a good one. I can't wait for the answer.
Soren Kaplan
It's, it's, you know, I've spent a lot of time trying to sort through all of that in my own personal life, and then try to articulate this as an approach or a model or a way to help others understand this, let me give it a shot. The things that happen in our lives, that we remember as our experiences, and we can remember them in our minds, but we can remember them in our bodies, there's a great book called The Body Keeps the Score, which is all about how trauma, wires us. I mean, it's based in neuroscience, how wired is us to have these physical reactions to things that happen in our lives that bring us back to that moment that that traumatic thing happened PTSD is that. And so these are big impacts that are kind of you could call them negative, they happen to us and they're traumatic. Now, you can also look at little impacts. Also that might be smaller things that add up over time. I know that with my mother's mental illness, I was embarrassed a lot to have friends over and to be in public with her. And I developed this fear of judgment. And so it wasn't like this one thing that happened, but it was a number of things over time. And that fear of judgment then got in my way of receiving feedback, has you know, I still work on it or getting feedback from my wife or even in a business context. That fear of judgment creates this. I call it a visceral memory because it's not a trauma. It's a small little thing. That gives me a memory of how it felt way back when and it gets it gets in my way of taking feedback that can be helpful to me. So that's my own personal example. So you've got these big impacts that are traumas you have these little impacts. And some of them can be positive and negative too. I mean, not it's not all negative, I have a big impact I traveled to India, when I was right out of college, I traveled alone for a couple of weeks, it totally blew my mind in a positive way. And I got in touch with the relativity of culture with spirituality and meditation. And that's a very positive, big impact. And it totally changed how I think just like the traumas impacted me and constricted how I thought or I had some self-limiting beliefs around it. So those are, you know, you have the positives and the negatives, the big and the little impacts. And those are all in are playing together to shape our mindsets. And then our also our abilities and our know how, based on what we decide to do with those things kind of more practically.
Greg Voisen
So, interestingly, you mentioned India, and I also remember you writing that that your parents followed was it Baba Ji,
Soren Kaplan
it made her Baba,
Greg Voisen
we made her Baba. Yeah, yeah. So did you go there with the intention of trying to kind of learn a little bit more about that culture that teaching? In those two weeks you were there? Whatever hour long you were there? What was the intention of that? Because it almost seems to me that I just made the connection because I remember reading about, you know, the guru.
Soren Kaplan
Well, let's, let's continue to go deep, Greg. So I did mention my parents were seekers. My mother was the daughter of a Methodist. My grandfather was a Methodist minister. And they were they were in India as missionaries. And she grew up in the Himalayas meditating with the monks. She met my dad who was let grew up in New York, they went, they both went to Harvard and then dropped out. That's when we went and lived with rom das for six months. And then that's where they met a guy named Danny, who was Daniel Goleman, who gave them a book from Mayor Baba, which then inspired them to travel around and eventually moved to California to be part of a group in Walnut Creek, California, where they have a community there. So I grew up in what was called the Sufi community, it was in the East Bay of the San Francisco Bay Area, and I got exposed to a lot of Eastern mysticism, spirituality. My father was a professor in the first accredited cut human consciousness program in the United States at John F. Kennedy University, where he was a dean. And so I grew up in an environment, which I resisted for a long time. And my gift from my father, for my college graduation was a trip to India. And so I get it, I ran with it. And I visited a lot of the sites that were important to Mayor Bob, His followers, and just also just absorbed the culture and I traveled it to various cities, but it was really a special experience for me, because I could connect to what had given my parents a lot of purpose for many years, and experiences a culture at the same time and a level of spirituality that I hadn't really been in touch with for myself, as well.
Greg Voisen
Now, as all this pans out, where do you stand spiritually? In other words, have you Have you followed Eastern traditions? Or have you shun them as a result of some of the pain associated with it? No,
Soren Kaplan
I don't Shun. I see common threads in many religions. Okay. in a positive light. I truly believe there's, you know, there's more than just me as a self, I don't really believe that I'm, you know, I'm kind of alone in the world and myself and not connected anything. I think there's a bigger picture out there. Yeah. And that a lot of what I'm writing about in experiential intelligence, is all about the experiences that we have that connect us that can maybe separate us but have opportunities for reconnecting us and that it's all kind of connected in some way that is hard to articulate. But if you're into meditation, and you are into active meditation and kind of mindfulness, I think that you can start to get in touch with that broader view that we're not just individual selves, but connected to something a little greater honor. Yeah, yeah.
Greg Voisen
I mean, whether you believe in reincarnation or not, whether you will leaving any of that or not the point is, if you give yourself the opportunity to explore whatever it is, I call it spirituality, some level of spirituality that there's something greater out there then you, I think that it's an opportunity for you to transform how you see the world, right. And you state that in the chapter on discovering x q, that our past is in our past, and we cannot change it. Agreed. But we can change how we view our personal history. How do we develop this experiential intelligence? On the three levels you discuss in this chapter? Because there's like, three levels mindsets, you know, you can go through it? Yeah.
Soren Kaplan
I don't think the experiential intelligence is rocket science. It's been around this concept, I didn't invent it. It was invented by a guy named Robert Sternberg, who was the past president of the American Psychological Association. So all that whole idea that our experiences give us intelligence, in some form, has been out there, it just hasn't really taken hold. And so when I think about how you develop it, it's pretty simple. Think about the experiences that have the greatest impact on you your most poignant experiences, especially maybe ones that bring up some kind of an emotional response. And as you do that, look at those experiences in terms of the messages that you might have taken away from them. What did I take away from that experience that is now a belief or an attitude that I have about myself, about other people or about the world, and understand that that's the really the simplest starting point, in terms of understanding your mindsets. What you can also do, though, is you can then say, based on those experiences, and the mindsets, perhaps, that I embraced, what have I done because of that? And that done means What did I How did I cope with it? What did I decide to do with my life? What How have I, you know, what hobbies did I decide to get into whatever it is, and look at the skills that you've got, and the knowledge that you've gained from it. But then extrapolate that that's your know how, and then extrapolate that into your abilities. So what are your the kind of competencies that you have, that you bring to the world. So you've got how you think your mindsets, you got your know how your knowledge and skills, and then you have your abilities, but those all stem from experiences. And really what we're talking about is like a little chart for columns, experiences, mindsets, abilities, and know how, and you just kind of fill it out. It doesn't have to be really complex.
Greg Voisen
No, and it isn't. And you give a graph or a chart in the book. And, you know, look, you're living an example of your experiences, look at what you're teaching people at a corporate level, individual level, whatever level and the experiences you had as a young adult, right. And it's truly is exceptional what you're doing, you're taking what may have been some trauma, and a lot of good times as well. And you're bringing it forward, and you're teaching people and I just want to acknowledge you for that, you know, it's like you're being vulnerable, as well. And in the process. Now that you have a chapter on identifying impacts, and you tell a bit about unpredictability of your mother's actions and behaviors. You mentioned it earlier. You mentioned her behavior, made you hyper alert. And I thought that was an interesting term. You speak if you would speak with the lizard about forecasting the past and finding the direct link between our past and how they influence us today. And if you would also talk about the impact chart template that's in the book. And just for my listeners, when you get the book, whether it's an e book or real book, it's on page 81.
Soren Kaplan
Sir Greg, my kind of pithy term that anyone can forecast your past basically means how do you look backwards so you can look forwards at what you want to have guide you into the future. So that's forecasting your past. And so my example that you mentioned around my hyper alertness. I didn't always know what my mother was thinking are going to do or if my father was going to even be home because he was just very focused on a lot of external pursuits. And so I was constantly trying to Understand and scan my environment, look at facial expressions with my mom and try to decipher what's going on. And when we were out in public, my mother at times would look like she was homeless, really. And I would be embarrassed. And I would be scanning other people to see if we were getting noticed on the street. What that allowed me to do was to, and I'm going to focus on the positive side of this, I'm really good at reading the room, when I'm facilitating a group of 100 leaders in a working work session, I'm good at bought looking at body language I, I have developed the ability to scan my environment and understand what's happening out there very quickly. So those coping mechanisms are triggers that I had because of practicing it so much. It's like the Malcolm Gladwell 10,000 Hour Rule. I did that a lot. And so those became assets for me. And those assets are tied to trauma. And they're the flip side of, you know, I had to really my mother passed away and I had to really get in touch with, what were those experiences that I had that were hard and get through those, but also what gifts did I get from the fact that she was my mother? And those are the things that I identified? And I've used and I also realize that I've been using them without really knowing it. And so how do I use them more? How do I articulate how they got developed to help other people?
Greg Voisen
Well, it's apparent that you're using them because you've written a book about it. And you explained it, you explain it very well in the book about how anybody that's the point, could either read this book, or just get in touch with their feelings a little bit more, and determine how those have been affecting them and the beliefs that they have around that as well. And in your chapter on decoding mindsets, you state that negative experiences are often the most influential. When it comes to instilling attitudes and beliefs that don't serve us well. The listeners would like to know where mindsets come from, and how to decode them. You talk about four types of identified, you know, identifiers on the mindset map in the book page like 97, again, for my listeners, but
Soren Kaplan
yeah, so the mindsets are kind of a hot topic these days, you look at what's coming out of Stanford University, Carol Dweck, and some of her work on growth mindsets. I think that and we've heard about concepts like self-limiting beliefs as well, those experiences that we have, and then what they communicate to us, I look at them as either communicating something that works for us, in terms of, you know, having a very positive experience, I went to India, and I got communicated to in a sense that in terms of how I internalized it, that there's relativity and how people go about life. And there's more than one way to look at something or do something that that was one thing I pulled took away from that. I look at that as a positive self-expanding belief. There's also though some of those self-limiting beliefs that can happen as well. So those are really two types of kind of positive and negative beliefs we might derive out of our experiences, which influences our mindsets. And so when I think about them, I have this tool, the mindset map. And so you can either look at your positive experiences, and the ones you're aware of. And, and then what that gave to you and I talked talking about positive affirmations is the things that you feel good about yourself, they're things that you think you're going to propel you forward and you know about them. And then you have the things that you might be unaware of that I look at as positive that you're unaware, and it's yourself expanding beliefs that just are under the surface, but they're really propelling you forward. Then you got the negative stuff. And you might be you're aware of it, it's your negative self-talk. It's like what you said, I have thoughts, but I don't have to believe them. Right. That's negative self-talk. And then the unaware stuff or under subconscious I would talked about as a self-limiting belief that is might be driving you or constraining you that that you're not necessarily aware of. And so it's really those four types of kind of aware unaware negative, positive little matrix, if you will.
Greg Voisen
Yeah, and I think underlying kind of underbed of all of this is, and I know my listeners have heard me say this, and they've heard other authors say it, but whatever you had this experience from, if it has eroded your belief in your enoughness, am I enough? You know, because many people are coming from, if the balance sheet had positive and negative on it, the balance sheet probably has more negative than it does positive about the beliefs that they have around being enough. Right. So, just from your standpoint, I mean, if you kind of distilled all this down and said, Well, is it really just about being enough? Well, in essence, many of the things that affect us, whether it's our father saying, Hey, you didn't get A's in college, and you know what you could have done better son? Or, Hey, you took that job, but really, you should have gone over here, whatever comment was said to you, that affected your psychology and your mental mindset around who you are. That's kind of what we're talking about. With emotional intelligence, right? I should say, not emotional intelligence. Sorry about that. With experiential intelligence, but emotional intelligence is in there, too. It's in there, too. All three of them. Right. All Connected? Yeah, for sure. Comment on this overall concept of enoughness?
Soren Kaplan
Well, I think that there's, I see that I've had that and see it in myself to certain extent, I think there's other things too, like, not just enoughness, but worthiness, yeah, my worthy of this attention, Am I worthy of the accomplishments that, you know, that I might be able to create, and if we don't believe in those things, they can hold us back. So we do things that reinforce the beliefs we hold, versus flipping those around to say, Oh, I am worthy, and I'm gonna go do this thing. And I'm gonna make it happen, or I am enough. And you look at this big trend, like an imposter syndrome, that that term has kind of come up, in a way, like, it's good to have a label for it. But it's also a little daunting that so many of us have that same experience. Like so many of us feel like imposters, I know I have many times in my life and often still do. And what are where is that coming from? It's coming from that deeper place. And so is that, you know, what is that and how do we get our arms around it, it came from somewhere, it came from our experiences typically, and how we internalize some things. It's psychology, it's neurology, it's sociology, it's our experiences, let's understand that deeper and then work with it.
Greg Voisen
And it is another thing too, for you to get anybody out there to be aware, and go to a level of discomfort that it takes to actually address it. Because frequently, there has to be some level flick, you're in pain, you're trying to get rid of the pain. And frequently, it means you doing something different than what you're doing now. To address it. And you know, the book is filled with opportunities for the readers to reevaluate their beliefs, their behaviors, their patterns, that most likely have been influenced them in their life experiences. What three takeaways would you want to leave with the listeners with that could influence their life positively, and are actionable immediately? In other words, hey, right now walking away from this podcast after 40 minutes. With Soren, what can I use?
Soren Kaplan
Well, I think first recognize we all have experiential intelligence. And it's simple to get started. And it doesn't have to be a difficult process or a painful process or an emotional one, we you can get started by just listing off here are the experiences that I've had. Here's what I took away from them in terms of my mindsets, my abilities, and my know how, and that gives you a snapshot of sort of what makes you. So that's step one, step two would be you can do that with and get feedback from other people. So that you can get some mirroring back to the accuracy of what you're seeing. And it can be the positive stuff or the negative stuff. But if you do that, you also start creating a dialogue with your partner, your team, whoever it is, that's meaningful to you, and oftentimes, they'll share too. And that cycle of vulnerability and insight and reflection will help everyone grow. Those are things you don't even need the book for it, you can just like have the conversation that you can get started super easy with that. The other thing is, if you are looking at if you're in business that sort of is a business book, even though it applies to education, and it applies to parenting, and it applies to like personal development. Let's say you're wanting to hire people, or you're in a team and you want to develop people, don't just look at what's listed on their resumes, try to understand their life experience that they're willing to share that demonstrate the assets that exist within your teams and organizations. So that you can really leverage all of that. And it can be positive stuff, you know, what life experiences have you had that shaped you in some positive way, you get all that on the table, you realize those are the competencies that your team has. And then you leverage those to achieve your goals. It again, doesn't have to be rocket science, it's very simple stuff. But it's those, it's a framework that's just been flying under the radar, and anyone can tap into it.
Greg Voisen
Well, there's value in it, especially for teams and accompany. And I think if somebody is evaluating somebody for employment, having questions on their questionnaire, or when they do the interviews, about hiring, about, you know, their experiential intelligence would be important. I mean, most companies are going to ask, what kind of experiences have you had? The question is, are you listening, and then reflecting on where those experiences can best be utilized with inside the organization, to either lift up a team, change the dynamic of a team, there's a lot of things that can happen when you do that. And that's the thing that you talked about a bit we didn't get too deep into. But you know, you said from your spiritual experience, and the way I'm gonna walk away from this is, it's like a tapestry. We're all interconnected. Right. So you did say that, and I think, especially when you're in a business, there's this big culture. And then there's subsets with teams inside that culture, doing things, we're accomplishing goals and our objectives. And as long as there's alignment, and it doesn't mean there can't be resistance, but that those experiences come together to create and or manifest something positive with inside the business, they're doing well. It's been a pleasure having you on inside personal growth. And again, for my listeners, go out and get a copy of this book, we'll have a link to Amazon again, the website is Soren, s-o-r-e-n-k-a-p-l-a-n.com. There, you can learn more about him. Also, you can download high resolution picture of him if you want, take it with you. You also can do this. You can look, you can contact him, and you can sign up for the newsletter. And I think what's really cool about this book that I don't find happening in many books, and I want to mention this is all the little videos that are about two minutes long in front of each chapter. You know, if all you did was get the book and snapshot it and go to those QR codes, and listen to those, you'd get the essence of the book. So Soren, thanks so much for being on. Thanks for being on Inside Personal Growth, sharing some of your wisdom and experiences with my listeners.
Soren Kaplan
Real pleasure, Greg. Thank you.
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Inside Personal Growth with Greg Voisen · Podcast 992: Lessons I Learned From the Tortoise with Donna DahlJoining me in this podcast is author, speaker, workshop developer and empowerment coach, Donna Dahl. Featured in our engaging discussion is one of her good-to-read books entitled Lessons I Learned From the Tortoise.
Donna has been coaching business owners, decision-makers and persons ready to take giant steps for more than ten years. She is an award-winning Empowerment Coach having won the Woman of Inspiration Award for Lifetime Achievement, the Queen Elizabeth II Diamond Jubilee Medal and the 100th Anniversary International Women’s Day Award for Outstanding Service to Business.
Donna, also, is a successful self-publisher, editor and published author. She has written empowerment books targeting entrepreneurs and those who are looking at reinventing themselves. One of her masterpieces is Lessons I Learned From the Tortoise – a delightful, motivational book uses a beloved, well-known story to help you cast reflections on your inner qualities.
If you want to know more about Donna and her works, you may click here to visit her website.
I hope you enjoy my engaging interview with Donna Dahl. Happy listening!
You may also refer to the transcripts below for the full transciption (not edited) of the interview.
Interview Transcipt -Not EditedEmailDownloadNew TabGreg Voisen
Well welcome back to Inside Personal Growth. And on the line with me is Donna Dahl. And we're going to be speaking with Donna about a book that she wrote a while back but an interesting little book called Lessons I Learned from the Tortoise. Donna, Good day to you. How are you?
Donna Dahl
I'm well thank you. Thank you for inviting me.
Greg Voisen
Well, Don is joining us from porta Viar toe Mexico where she's spending three months but the rest of the time she spends her time in cold Canada where exactly in Canada are you from Donna? I'm from Calgary. Calgary, okay, hot in the summertime called in the wintertime. So she enjoys those Calgary stampedes. Now I'm going to let our listeners know a tad bit about you Donna, before we get into talking about your books and the lessons you've learned. Donnie is an award winning empowerment coach having won women of inspiration Award for Lifetime Achievement, the Queen Elizabeth the Second Diamond Jubilee medal and the 100th anniversary International Women's Day Award for outstanding services to business. Donald Donna is humbled by the numerous testimonials and recommendations posted online, online both by our clients and our peers. And you can find them on Amazon and on public social media networking sites, like LinkedIn and Alignable. Donna's a pretty well versed person, you can go to her website at Donna P doll dhl.com. That's Donna P doll. To learn more about her business, her books, how she helps people actually create and write books. But this little book is quite interesting, actually, I think probably done. Many people have known the story of the tortoise and the hare. But we always learned something from it, if you would tell our listeners a little about yourself. And what really compelled you to write this book lessons I learned from the tortoise.
Donna Dahl
Thanks for asking, alright. Aesop's fable about the tortoise and the hare is a story that appealed to me way, way back in time. I, I always found myself identifying with the tortoise. And that that might have had something to do with the fact that I stopped growing when I was 13. And others were passing me by. You know, it's interesting that when illustrators create pictures depicting the tortoise and the hare, they always have the tortoise, black down on all fours almost hitting the ground. And the hair is upright on his two hind legs all and ready for action. It's whether that's an appropriate way to think about the tortoise and the hare or not. I'm not sure. But the moral of the story in the final analysis to me said, you know, it's possible for the underdog, even. And I think that that's that that's what makes this story so memorable to me. As a coach, I'm working with individuals who are wanting to develop leadership skills, who are working in the realms of team building and wanting to develop confidence, whether it's in their team or in themselves. And so I see lessons I'm learning from a mentor, and a sort of a manual that could that could help leaders support them, not only themselves but their teams as well.
Greg Voisen
Yeah, it's really interesting. You're saying this because I just did a an interview with comedian Samuel called wealth coaching. And she actually works with coaches, you know, as it relates to your story, you know, people go, Oh, I'm going to be a coach and I'm going to end up earning six figure income right away. And it is really about the tortoise and the hare here. It takes time and patience to really develop a good coaching business and reach the levels that you would like to reach and if you're not committed and determined to do that, chances of you getting there are pretty slim to nil there are you know, I know we see these great famous coaches out there from all over who, you know, maybe they did make money quickly. But statistically, she proved to me otherwise, as we talked about it. And I think you'd agree with that. Now, you say in the book that we pattern, a lot of our pain, our behavior, around guidance that stems from our past, I agree with you, you know, it's, we get comfortable in what we know. So we don't try and kind of push for the discomfort. And I recognize that that's a challenge. How do you recommend changing patterns that are not serving us to our highest and best potential? In other words, you're a coach, you're working with people all day long? And you see these patterns that they get stuck in? And how do you get them to identify the pattern? And how do you get them to release that pattern, and become a little bit more risky?
Donna Dahl
One of the first things that, that I like to point out is that I've, I've done some work on myself. So I had to, I had to confront some of the things that were in my present life. And where did they come from? And how did they get there. So one of the things that has happened is that my closet has expanded over the years, partly because I haven't necessarily changed by size. But there was a something that was instilled in me when I was very, very young. And that was that I needed to be gentle with my clothes. There were people that were described as being hard on their heart on their clothes, and I was asked to be gentle on my clothes so that I can pass it down to younger members of my family. What? What, in order for me to get a grip on this business of my wardrobe, I needed to be able to do a wardrobe inventory analysis, how did my clothing get to stay there? And what was I going to what was I going to do about it,
Greg Voisen
so I mean, purging your closet. But awesome. But you should see my closet, I must have been trying to be gentle on mine as well, because my wife always says to me, you need to get rid of half of that stuff you have.
Donna Dahl
But until unless and until we're prepared to face, the behaviors that we have, the actions that we take, the beliefs that we operate on, nothing is ever going to change. And so sometimes it really helps to work with a coach to help identify those underlying pieces that may be having an influence on your life that you that may be no longer serving.
Greg Voisen
Well, that's a perfect example. I mean, it's actually It may sound funny to some, but, you know, look, I grew up with a little Jewish mother, who always told me to save everything. And she grew up during the Depression. So I got to be the benefactor. And I think sometimes what you have to do is on some of these things, you get their gifts, you have to say I love what my parents gave to me. And you have to accept it versus fighting it, you know. And in my case, it was it's about like saving stuff because my mom used to send me to school. So here's a perfect example. Like you, you had to be gentle with your clothes. This is another great behavior. She had me bringing home the paper bag that she put my lunch in, and I would literally have five lunches that would go to school in the same paper bag that she put my name on. Now, some people might just say that that's just absolutely ridiculous. But to this day, when I get a bag, I fold it up, and I put it away. That just shows you a pattern, that and a belief that you have they can hang on for I'm going to be 69 years old. So that's a long time to be hanging around paper bags. But you know you utilize this Aesop Fable about the tortoise and the hare and you state that speed may matter but slow and steady wins the race. And we just used an example about coaching. That's a great I think because you're a coach, you're not going to make probably six figure income in your first year. So, you know, get ready for that. I know we've all heard the quote. But how many of us have really heard the message? Can you tell the story that you did in the book about Alexander Graham Bell's patent filing, I never knew that I was just like, wow, that's a that's a great little story, because it exemplifies, you know, the speed, right? We're talking about speed. And I won't ruin it. So go ahead and tell it because I didn't know it.
Donna Dahl
Well, Alexander Graham Bell illustrates not only speed, but also commitment, commitment on a number of fronts. To begin with, Alexander was all about solving a problem. And that problem had to do with his mother, who had challenges with her hearing. So she always needed to use a horn that Alexander would speak into, in order to help her to hear what he was saying. Alexander wasn't satisfied with that solution. And so began working on something that at that time was called an acoustic telegraph. another fancy word for what we speak about today as a phone. But with an acoustic telegraph, what he wanted to do was he wanted to be able to transmit sound waves across a skinny surface like a wire, in order to be able to communicate that sound into another space when the person was visible. On the day of filing for the patent, apparently, Elisha Gray, was also working on experimenting with an acoustic telegraph. And in fact, she and others challenged Alexander in the court, subsequent to his inspiring, and that years, years of resolution, and finally, Alexander was granted the big cottoned on the telephone. And in Canada, we still have the Bell System, in in, in effect today, as a result of having been declared the fastest person to the patent office in 1876.
Greg Voisen
Yeah, it's a fascinating story. And it really does. Just bring up the whole story of the tortoise and the hare, you know, just hanging out, are you going to hang out? And that brings me to kind of my next question. The second chapter of your Burke book, you speak about the fact that it's okay to be second. We've seen people who've invented things or they waited for somebody else to do something, and then they made whatever it was better, right? In other words, it's like proving it. I remember, you know, like I can I go back to the days when we used to use palm pilots, and I'm much many of my listeners will remember that device. And we used to exchange business cards with infrared, right? Was boom, it would send it and, you know, you think about it, Palm Pilot pebble, which is the first digital watch kind of company as well. And you look back at these, and so many people wrote on the back of all these kinds of inventions. And you said it's okay to be second, you tell the great story about the first producers of automobiles. And note that Henry Ford was not first. What are the advantages near estimation of not being first other than I've just pointed out a few. You can take the technology that somebody comes out with and then you can make it better and better and better and better.
Donna Dahl
Yes, yes. I love the question. There's there are some, you know, who would never entered the race to begin with, if someone had already arrived at the finish line. But that didn't. That didn't stop and record and while Ransome Eli OLS may have had the first assembly line with respect to producing vehicles back at the beginning of the 20th century. It was Henry Ford, who was first use a conveyor belt in the manufacture of automobiles. And so he did, he is a great example of making it better. If we don't forward to the 1950s, it was actually Russia that had the first equipment, the first satellite, and the United States followed a year later with putting theirs into space. So sometimes the big first can be the motivation to others coming behind, I think that that coming second says that you didn't give up. In, I talked in the book about horse racing, where you know, where to place your show, twice is still a pretty important space to be in, because it's still in the money. So it's okay to being second. That doesn't mean it doesn't mean that your last position, in fact, as in Henry Ford's case, it helped him to become the largest producer of automobiles in the world.
Greg Voisen
Yeah, I think people can just perfect it. Sometimes they have the vision for in his case, it was mass assembly, assembly lines. I remember this from the days of technology, it's, you know, Bill Gates way back when I was going to all the shows in Las Vegas that they would do around computers. And the story is, and I'm sure it's totally true that IBM was way before Bill Gates, and IBM also created dos. And Bill Gates bought dos from IBM. And it wasn't him that actually created the foundation of I mean, when you look at initially when we were doing computers, it was all dos stuff, right? Obviously, it's progressed way beyond that at this point. But like you say, when you look at the first people, when you look at the university that first said, hey, they created the internet, they say that internet, or the government that was involved in it, I mean, you look at how it's just piggyback. And if you would speak with our listeners about celebrating their success, I think this comes down to an individual level. No matter what place they finish, you mentioned just being in the game, the race, we're talking about the tortoise and the hare here is as important as winning whether or not the tortoise won it or the hare one it the reality is they were both in the race.
Donna Dahl
They were both in the race. Sometimes it's a question of what do we value? Do we validate participation? Do we value a clause or some combination of both? To me, it's all about endorphins. So if we're getting exercise, if we're getting mentally challenged, if we're getting recognition, coming first, second, third, it's endorphins sort of send us to our happy place that that that improves our mood, it improves our, our appetite improved on our mental health. Thank you. So stepping forward, and joining the race is very good practice to have. And I would, I would say to leaders, come on, let's, let's improve the spaces where we can practice positive, positive engagement with the culture that we're attempting to develop in the workplace.
Greg Voisen
Yeah, and I think, you know, when businesses, you know, when they start up, there's all this smaller businesses that turn into be very big businesses. And then when they get to be very big, sometimes they lose some of that entrepreneur spirit. And, you know, there's the old cliche in business consulting, you know, storming, forming norming, right. And so as you climb up into those various levels, you find that there is a level of complacency and bureaucracy and a challenge, but you've got to challenge every individual within the organization to bring their creativity and innovation. That's what most businesses are looking for. And you talk about a really important thing. If my goal is aligned with the goal of the company that I work
Donna Dahl
For, that's great.
Greg Voisen
That's where you're going to get the most engagement from me. And you speak about multitasking, and how it gets in our way of making progress. And I would agree with you, I think it was actually Microsoft that did the study. And they said, how many things? Can you actually pay attention to it once? I think optimally? I know I'm going to say one, but I think it came down to two or three, was it you know, but people have so much on their plate. Speak to the listeners about the power of focus, and the distractions of multitasking? And how it takes them off of? Let's just call it their mark.
Donna Dahl
Thank you. Great, great question. A university professor of mine once asked the question of how many conversations can you live them too, at one time? I thought interesting question is his answer was, we can only focus on one conversation at a time, what happens is that we can focus on the conversation over here, by focusing our veer in that direction, by shutting off this year, and then fluctuating back and forth, will help us to focus on one or the other, but only one at a time, we can't hear two conversations at the same time. So thinking about what is the definition of a distraction. And my take on that is that a distraction is, first of all, anything that causes us not to be present in the present tense in the present moment. And the other is that a distraction acts as a beach word. So what is going on in our universe, and in 2023, is that we are being pummeled with pings on our cell phone. We're, they're finding that individuals, for instance, working in an office space, might be checking email inboxes, as many as 30 times in an hour. If you added all that time up over the course of a day or a week, that's that there are some who might consider that to be time lost, in terms of in terms of work. So the part here that bothers me about multitasking is that it is reducing our attention span, off to stay committed to a particular task or goal for any length of time. And those people who work in a multitasking environment tend to find that the end of the day, they will, they will comment will be that they've accomplished nothing. Because all they were doing all day long with being over. Yeah, and when you have
Greg Voisen
the short attention span on something and you go back and forth, it's like, you know, people wanting to get your attention, if you're middle line manager and your door is open, and you said you always had an open door policy. And I get that, I think you need to hear the people that work for you and with you. But it prevents you from getting the stuff done that you need to get done. So it's almost like I think it's better to time block and have office hours and say if we really want to talk, you can get me at this particular time. And that seems to be a challenge for a lot of people because as you said, the digital devices are also taking from their time because they're a distraction. They're normally a distraction, they're an addiction, they become highly addictive. And I guarantee you that the companies that have those wants you to be addicted to them. That's their point. You talk about a really interesting story you tell about the art of quilting, and what are known as UFOs. I always thought those were, you know, unidentified flying objects, but it's not in your book. Speak with us about finishing what we start and our unfinished projects because this actually goes right along with what we were just talking about multitasking, allowing and figuring out what the priority is. You know, I think there's a goal and then there's proximal goals that are the goals prior to those that help you do it a step at a time because in reality, this is about taking the baby steps to get The bigger step no matter how long it takes, yeah.
Donna Dahl
Partly, partly, Greg, but one of the things that influences the, the choice, whether it's finished or not. Why? Why started in the first place? Was it intended to be a gift? Was it intended to be a challenge project? was? Was it? Did it end up being too complex? Was it taking up too much time? Come up with a well first,
Greg Voisen
first tell the audience what the UFO is that you're saying? Oh,
Donna Dahl
it's an unfinished object. In other words, a quilt project. Right, started and remains unfinished. Got it? Okay. Are those people in business who advertise themselves as being persons who finished those UFOs for the quilter? Oh, the project doesn't have to remain unfinished. But anything that's unfinished, doesn't necessarily do us any good. And so um, come up with an acronym that might help those unfinished projects, whether they're quilts or whether they're tasks of another nature. Initiative, alternate, done delegate it, or donate it. Bad dentists should alter it, delegate it, or donate it.
Greg Voisen
I like that. I like that. You know, that's, I know, many of my listeners, I don't know if this show gets into Canada. But I wouldn't say I'm addicted, but I love American Pickers. And so when they go out, and they see these old barns filled with old cars, or, or chest of drawers, it doesn't matter what it is. It's just been sitting there for 2530 years. And the pickers will say, Well, I had it. It was I was definitely wanted to finish it, but I got it done. And it's not just a little bit of stuff. It's barn after barn after buying and keep thinking here. So is that stuff just distracting me? Or what? Because there's no way possible that anybody's going to finish doing half of what the stuff is that I see. It's just that it's like an addiction. I call it an addiction. So I get the UFOs. Now, we all know the tortoise won the race, through focus and physical stamina and determination. What is it that you want our listeners to know about tenacity and determination? Because that's a big one. And I'm sure when you're when you are coaching people. You know, one of the things that I'm noted for, I would say, is my tenacity and my determination. This is my 16th year of the show. And most people say, how did you get to almost 1000 podcasts? It's like, they can't even believe that I've stayed around. But, you know, I love what I do. And I think that's part of it, you've got to love it. And you then you really have to stick with it. It's not always Wine and Roses, it isn't always great. But you get through those and then you keep improving how you do it your process, then it becomes easier, you know, so speak to them about tenacity and determination.
Donna Dahl
tenacity and determination are based in commitment. You know, you when I was I had applied for acceptance into matcher studies. And at the time, I was a single parent mom. Holding down a full time paying job and wanting to improve my credentials. got accepted. And I'm approaching five years in the program when I get called into the office of the of the department head telling me that I was running out of time. Wouldn't I just rather accept a diploma instead of a master's? And call it a day? I said no, it's my intention to finish my master's and all I need is one more year. I still had some coursework to do And I still needed to write the thesis. But I was given the extension, and I completed the Master's. In fact, my thesis was 169 pages long and my family committee had been changed recently. That is commitment. That's,
Greg Voisen
that is commitment. I think it's it and true and everything that you that you go out to complete, right. And maybe, and I think this is the most important thing is, for my listeners, this would be important. The attachment to the outcome is not what we're talking about. It's the journey toward the outcome. That's the most important, it doesn't always turn out exactly like you thought. But what creates disappointment in your life, is this huge disappointment, if you've set this stretch goal or whatever in your life, and you don't get there, and then you start beating yourself up for it. And you said that earlier in this interview, it's okay to be second, right even okay to be third, the point is, you were still in the game. And I think that's an important point of this whole book, you know, of our interview. And there's a takeaway there. And I'm going to ask you about that he has a lot of great stories and examples in the book. And if you were to leave our listeners with three sound bits of advice regarding speed, tenacity, determination, commitment, what would you like to leave them with? And how could they apply it to their lives, like really, immediately as a result of listening to this podcast?
Donna Dahl
Well, thank you for the question. The I think one of the things that that is really important to reflect on strategy, and what influences strategy. We've talked about strategy being entering the game. The strategy could be based on a time element. strategy could be based on simply attempting to respond to circumstances in our environment. So what let's get in touch with what is our what is our strategy for moving forward? The second point that I'd like to make help you with bias, and that is that there are elements in the book where I address things that we value, are we are we more prepared to value speed? Are we more prepared to value tenacity? Are we more prepared to value finishing? Or are we more prepared to value getting engaged, we need to the front or bias in order that we can perhaps create a different realm of influence when it comes to diversity and inclusion. Last point I'd like to make has to do with challenge. And in the afterword, in my book I write that challengers inspire us to take time, long before we might ever become giant. Oh, I would like to challenge all those who are listening today to consider the possibility of reaching, stretching, accepting a challenge, accept my challenge to pick lessons I learned from the tortoise, my book to be your Manu, as you proceed with your leadership. That's a
Greg Voisen
that's very sound advice. For my listeners, many of them might already know or maybe they don't know. But I have a co-authored book coming out called Life on the precipice that was co-written with Beau Parfitt and Cathy Sparrow. And it's all about the expedition climbers and extreme athletes, and how they stay committed and determined to reach their goals. It's those ones like we say, I have one gentleman I interviewed he climbed Everest 17 times. So if you can imagine the determination it takes To do that that many times, it's pretty amazing. And most of the people, I would say, after having interviewed all these advanced climbers, it's tenacity, determination, and commitment. And those are three great words. Because that's the only way you're ever going to achieve those lofty goals that they had. So Donna, it's been a pleasure having you on inside personal growth. And for my listeners, again, go to Donna P doll. dhl.com. You can learn more about her there. You can learn about her services as a coach, her business book development workshops and talks. spotlights on Donna. There's a blog as well, please visit that website. And we'll put a link to Amazon to this book, which is only available in Kindle format. It's $4.99. us so it's very inexpensive, something you can download and probably read within an hour or hour and a half, something like that. Very easy book to read and a good book to have to pull some of these tidbits out of so Donna, thanks for being on the show. Thanks for sharing your wisdom and background with us and as a coach if you're looking for a good coach. Go to Donna's website contact her there's a contact on a right in the left hand corner. Donna namaste to you. Thank you so much for your time today.
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Inside Personal Growth with Greg Voisen · Podcast 991: Wealth Creation for Coaches with Kamin SamuelMy guest today is business and wealth consciousness coach, Kamin Samuel. She is also one of the authors of new book Wealth Creation for Coaches: A Workbook to Create a Prosperous Coaching Practice One Small Step at a Time, along with Steve Chandler.
Kamin started her professional career as the U.S. Navy’s first female African-American helicopter pilot. She transitioned to having several small businesses and then to corporate as a web developer at a computer electronics company. She is now an International Business and Executive Life Coach, and an IMPAQ B STATE® Coach, helping professionals increase their wealth mindset, improve performance, develop Breakthrough leadership skills, and create strategies to expand their opportunities.
Kamin also is a passionate writer. She has several bestselling books and just last December 2022, she, along with Steve Chandler, released a good to read book entitled Wealth Creation for Coaches: A Workbook to Create a Prosperous Coaching Practice One Small Step at a Time. This book provides a clear and proven step-by-step process for transforming potential clients into paying clients. It’s a practical workbook filled with exercises and action-steps for coaches that lead to building a thriving coaching practice and wealth that exceeds expectations.
If you want to know more about Kamin, you may click here to visit her website.
I hope you enjoy my engaging interview with Kamin Samuel. Happy listening!
You may also refer to the transcripts below for the full transciption (not edited) of the interview.
Interview Transcipt -Not EditedEmailDownloadNew TabGreg Voisen
Well, welcome back to Inside Personal Growth. This is Greg Voisen, the host of Inside Personal Growth. And I have Kamin Samuel joining us from San Clemente, California. And for my listeners, we both got master's degree in spiritual psychology at the same time at University of Santa Monica. Kamin, good morning to you.
Kamin Samuel
Good morning, Greg, it's wonderful to be here. Thank you so much for this opportunity.
Greg Voisen
Well, it's a pleasure having you on. And we were just saying, here we are. And we're, we were in a cohort group, and she only lives like, not that far from me. But we've got to go have lunch after this. So we're gonna do it. But it's a pleasure having you on and I know you've authored quite a few books. But the book we're going to be speaking about today, and I want to let my listeners know is wealth creation, for coaches, that she co-wrote with Steve Chandler. And for those of you who don't know, Steve, you can look him up. He has authored many books as well, and is really an expert on this topic. And we'll be mentioning that during the podcast, one of the other things I want to mention, is because Gay Hendricks has been on before is another book called The conscious lock workbook. Both of these books are workbooks, really. And, you know, and I gotta tell people, you know, you got to do the work to get there. That's the key. And if there's anybody who knows it, it's can mean and so, coming in, let me tell the listeners a bit about you before we get in to the actual podcast about you. But she's a rapid transformational business and wealth mindset coach, who is passionate about assisting our clients and identifying and clearing their inner blocks to achieve greater success in all areas of their lives. She holds a PhD in positive neural psychology and Master's in Science in Information System, a Master of Arts, in spiritual psychology, and a Master of Science in spiritual science. She's the author of multiple bestselling books, including the conscious luck workbook we just mentioned a second ago, co-written with New York Times bestselling author, Gay Hendricks, and Carol Klein, his wife, and his wife is his Oh, she's not as right. Okay, well, all this time, I didn't know. Katie is his wife. Her and her newest book, which we just talked about is this wealth creation for coaches, co-written with Steve Chandler. This is an extraordinary workbook. With tools, really, that's what we're gonna get into actionable tools to take steps to change your life and to change the lives of other people as well. Well, can mean, you know, there's always an inspiration behind building a book, you know, and it's not like, Oh, I just have to punch out another book. Fortunately, because of our background, hopefully, there was some intuition that came into the process saying, Hey, I've got to try and figure out how to write to people who want to be coaches. Tell us a bit about your background and history as an ex-Navy, helicopter pilot and coach, because I think that's important. Also, with both you and Steve, you both you both struggled early on in your career financially. You even right after, you know, being a Navy helicopter pilot, so I think that kind of sets the framework for, hey, look, you can't, you're not an overnight success. But, but at the same time, you have an opportunity to take little stair steps. And you actually mentioned that one of your chapters is about stair stepping. So tell us a little bit about you, and why you wrote this book, and what you think you can do for my listeners out there who want to be a coach.
Kamin Samuel
Oh, God, thank you, thank you again for having me. And, and I am very proud of this book. I'm proud of all of my books for this one in particular, because it really it really shows the arc. I'm really working with, you know, people on the arc of their career and, you know, starting off as a Navy helicopter pilot, you know, I struggled to become that, you know, I and then I and I did and I did well and was a flight instructor and, and I loved helping people learn. So most of my come from a long line of educators and so this idea of helping coaches or business owners or pilots or whatever learn has always been a part of, of kind of my DNA and so that's why I love workbooks, because as you said, it takes more work and, and I want people to be in the middle of it. And so when I went through the military, I always I didn't want to be a Navy helicopter, pilot I really just wanted to go into business. And through a course of action, I went in that direction. And then when I got out, I went into business for myself and I failed miserably. I ended up in bankruptcy and foreclosure of two homes and had to rebuild myself. I went into something that I love, which is technology and grew my corporate career there and all along, you know, people would come to me and ask me for help. And I wasn't, you know, I was just good at helping people. And I knew, at one point, and in one of our projects at school, we were watching our energy a lot in the second year and, and I knew that I was going to have a great day when someone came to me and said, Hey, can you can we go in the conference room? And we close the door? And they start crying? And I'm like, yes, with, there's somebody I can help today. So this idea of really, poaching has been with me a long time. And, and this book was actually born, Greg out of me working with Steve for I've been working with him for over nine years now.
Wow. Well, oh, falling is not failing.
Greg Voisen
As long as you get back up, and I've had my own setbacks, and then think you know, about some of them as well, you know, I had to declare bankruptcy. I had several failed companies. I put millions of dollars into things that I wish I had those millions of dollars from. But you know, that's the journey. It's like, when you get in a helicopter, and you go up in the air, and I heard this reference just the other day, you don't ever know if it's going to be a smooth flight or not. It can be bumps along the way, right? There can be lots of bumps or can be turbulence. And life is like that. Sometimes you fly across the country, you never hit any pockets of crazy air. Other times, you know, you're gonna hit some spots. It's crazy air. And if there's anybody knows that, that's you. So you state this workbook is not about getting rich quickly. And I would agree with that. Because, you know, I was saying to the last guy that I was just talking to, you know, I'm going to be 69 in July. And I'm like, looking at going, wow, where did the time go? How do you address the common misconception that coaches sit should not focus on making money, but be more focused on becoming the best coaches that they can. And I think when you're a new coach, whether you're coaching a business, or in group coaching, or individual coaching, you have this thing like, oh, boy, I'm gonna be a coach, and I'm gonna make millions of dollars right away, right? And that rarely ever happens.
Kamin Samuel
Rarely. And coaches really, you know, a lot of what I hear is, you know, I want to be a six figure coach. And I'm like, well, well, how much did you make last year? Yeah. $12,000. So let's talk about
Greg Voisen
catapult you into half a million dollars from $12,000.
Kamin Samuel
Yeah. And this also goes, Greg, for those people who are at 250,000, who want to make 500,000 Next year, or 750, or a million dollars the following year, right? It's really this opportunity for us to realize that coaching is really the only profession in Steve's lives. That requires personal and professional development all the time. And so we have to work on ourselves, we have to be the ability for us to develop our own good habits, how do we talk to people our skills, what's bothering us, our own mental blocks, the ability for us to clear those and move forward in our lives will then dictate, you know, how we help others, because we're really many times as coaches, we're just a, just a few steps ahead of somebody else. So true.
Kamin Samuel
And so,
Greg Voisen
you know, and you're learning from your clients, right? And, and all the time, all the time. And as you continue to take in this wisdom, the wealth of information, and you turn that information into positive advice, you can actually is, you know, you can take case studies in and protect them with by not using the name and actually start to relate those things to other people. Right.
Kamin Samuel
Can I think here? Yeah, because one of the things about me moving their careers forward is, especially when it comes to money. There are two aspects. One aspect is, again, are you coaching and helping people, we can't be in our head thinking about coaching, to get better at coaching, you actually have to be, you know, in the game of coaching and helping people to help them transform, and get coached at the same time that's in whether it's you're doing with peers, or you hire a coach, whatever. But that upgrading that wisdom is so important to the development. And then being able to set a first value, check it out, test it with somebody on what your fees are. So that get some money for your, for your, for your skills, and abilities. It has nothing to do with your worth, it has everything to do with your skills and what you believe. And
Greg Voisen
I kind of go by this axiom. You can't be a coach, if you're not coachable, you know, meaning? Does the coach have a coach? Right? In your case? I'm sure it was Steve. And that's how you got down this path going down this path? And on that front? Because you both struggled early on, and many people do. And you're not going to go from 12,000 to probably a quarter million, it's probably not going to happen. Not that it couldn't, but probably not. What advice do you have for coaches about embracing their own worth and worthiness? You have a great quote in the book from Nathaniel Braden, we must become what we wish to teach. And so comment on that, because I think if you're going to be a coach, and I don't, I'm gonna just gonna say this. You have to feel like you're enough. Yeah. Right. And so many people have problems with feeling enough.
Kamin Samuel
Well, that's actually, you know, I also am a certified actually a Clinical Hypnotherapist. And so this ability, that's what a lot of the work that I do in that room with my clients, I only do that hypnotherapy with my clients in kind of a program because I need to, to work with them on first, where did they come to believe that they're not enough? Right? What did they hear what that set at a very usually at a very young age, sometimes older, but that usually sources back to a young age, and that ability for us to heal and upgrade Am I enough so that, as I said a moment ago, where they're not paying you for what you're worth, they're paying you for your skills and abilities and the transformation that's on offer. And so coaches, that's what I meant about personal development, we have to keep upgrading who we are and what we're about. So that the worth question isn't on the table and my worth $100,000 Am I worth whatever, you're priceless? Or is the program that you're offering worth? $100 $3,000 $10,000 Whatever. So this ability for us to upgrade and the book well, it's designed for coaches I've also had business owners really love this book, because we're talking about we go through this process of chapter three is about clearing the limiting beliefs. What did you hear? Did you hear that you're too old, too fat too skinny, too young, to something not enough? And how do we check change those messages and then be able to design what it is that we'd like to create and move forward?
Greg Voisen
Yeah, and you know, you were talking about hypnosis and I'm going to introduce you to Dr. Steve bourbon here in Del Mar. He is my hypnosis guy that I go to my default guy. And you know, the subconscious talk about that for a second because, you know, hey, look, when you're really helping somebody, it's what's going on in the subconscious mind. And that frequently is the underworld that we don't give that much thought to. Okay, but when you get hypnotized if that's the way you want to refer this to or kind of put in a trance. It's interesting, the power of suggestion that that a hypnotist can have on you by just saying certain things as you're laying there. Right. And I think that I want to go to this part about the subconscious because that's where we've programmed all these limiting beliefs
Kamin Samuel
are in there. And part of the reason I became a hypnotist hypnotherapist was because I had worked with clients, they were getting a lot of progress. And then suddenly they stopped. And I thought I knew all of their stories. And then and I like to think of the way I do hypnotherapist very just relax, I'm not going to, you're not going to cluck like a chicken. Just going to relax. And the subconscious will tell us what's going on where did these ideas come from. And under hypnosis, I was surprised at how, how many stories of people I had known for years that came forward that I didn't know was running underneath. And here's the key, Greg that we don't understand. If a sum of a belief, like I'm not enough, which is the core belief, as you said to everyone that set 345 years old. 50 6070 That belief still thinks you're five years old, and is still why we act out we have temper tantrums, we get sad, we get whatever that is, that feels the same to what happened to us when we were five. And so I love working with the with the subconscious mind and rewiring first identifying root cause beliefs that are in there, and then rewiring it because you can set a new pathway
Greg Voisen
and speak about the neuro neuroplasticity because, you know, we may have some people that doubt what we're talking about a bit. I probably doubted if they're listening to this show. But the reality is there.
There is this
Greg Voisen
thing you need to do with your subconscious mind. And the more you do it, the more you reprogram it, the neuroplasticity plasticity, about these limiting beliefs can shift. Yes. And so what do you do with clients? When you're doing hypnotherapy? I know this talk wasn't about hypnotherapy. It was about your coaching book. But that's probably it's probably part of it. Yeah, yeah. So what could you explain to someone listening right now, that may be saying something's holding me back? But I don't know what's holding me back.
Kamin Samuel
Yeah, and the other way that looks in terms in addition to something's holding me back, and I don't know what it is, is I can't change it. Right. I'm just this way. This is the way I'm wired. And what scientists is found, this is why I wouldn't got a PhD and positive neuro psychology was to find all the woo words that I knew about how to change people, and change behaviors. To find the science behind it was they've studied up to an only up to the age 97 that our brains can rewire themselves, they can learn. And so that is that is something that is actually happening in our brains that it can learn and can fire off new patterns. And so what we in as far as in the book, and I'm talking about as well. And in my practice, we're talking about, what's the new belief? If I'm not enough, then what's, what's the positive to that? Well, I am enough. And that's foundational. You can write it on a mirror and lipstick or whiteboard marker, you can put it I have it three by five cards, I have it on my watch at 11am. Every day, it tells me I am enough, and I look at it and I take that in like nourishment to my body. And so the ability for us to rewire and set new neural pathways by they're not affirmations. They're not like I am wealthy, because the ego is going to knock you over your head and say no, you're not that's not possible. You look at your debt. Well, you can rewire it for just the feeling of wealth. What would it feel like to have an extra $100? What would it feel like to have a client say yes, what would it feel like to have a new contract sign? Those kinds of things, and the more we rehearse them, it takes anywhere from you. We all have heard 21 days I've heard 32 days 66 and 365 days. So it takes time. We didn't get that belief overnight. We rehearse it there's a lot in the book about what you what you rehearse, you become. And so what we want to do is choose what we rehearse and move into that.
Greg Voisen
Yeah, I remember interviewing Elizabeth gold. She's a friend of David Meltzer. And her book is called feeling forward. Right? Great title because when you think about it, it's like, I want to get this feeling. I want to immerse myself in what it would be like to be worth X dollars or have this great outcome. I know there's To term and I can't remember right now about thinking about our thinking, you know, we use, what was the term we used it USM? You don't have to believe everything you think. Right? And I think that's an important element here. Because absolutely, you know, what happens is we have a thought, and the thought, then we have it again. And then it turns into a belief. And then it becomes a permanent part of that subconscious, which then continues to kind of play itself out and we go, well, I can never have that I'm not worthy of that I can do whatever. So how do you identify that? And how do you get rid of those patterns, and beliefs?
Kamin Samuel
Most people at least know the first couple of beliefs that they have, actually, they just have to listen to them. So there's some exercises in the book. And that's why I love giving people, you know, exercises to actually write down what is it that they're hearing, there's a checklist of beliefs in the book that they can check off first, and then find out how it plays out. I'm not enough, might show up as I'm not worth that kind of money, nobody will pay me that kind of money. Well, we can flip that to a new belief that says, I'm open to somebody paying me that money, I'm open to sharing my gifts and abilities in a way that it would be a service to someone. And so the ability for us to start to shift and then write them down and then read them. I have people put them on three by five cards, set timers, whatever to reset. Because there are no really permanent beliefs. It's only that we hold on to them. I have a couple of other tools, I have this thing called the inactive box that I got from Esther Hicks and Abraham Hicks, which is basically, if you've got a belief that says something, just write it down, put it in the box, just deactivate it. I also tell my clients and you know, like I'm belief goes in like just see it go into the trash. You don't it doesn't have to pause, you don't have to give it any credibility. Don't get back to work.
Greg Voisen
Yeah, yeah, that's so important. So you work in conjunction with Steve, and there's this coaches prosperity school. And you're a teacher there, or a coach there. Tell the listeners a bit about Steve, the coaches, prosperity school, and your involvement as a coach through the school so that they know that hey, they can come to you, they can go over there. You're part of a big community of people that are part of Steve's team. But I would assume that's part of where you're getting your clients.
Kamin Samuel
Yes. And I love Steve's program because he ran several programs that were live over the years. And that was caught one way that I took five times was the advanced client systems, all about creating clients. And so he has put a lot of interviews with coaches myself included on the online prosperity school and, and so for all listeners, it doesn't matter whether you choose me or someone else, it's really about finding resonance, and finding someone who you can learn and grow from and expand. And there are lots of there's a ton of videos on there to help both understand from different coaching styles of prosperous coaches who have learned from Steve and worked with him. But then there are also some teaching elements that Steve has, that really will help somebody on a daily weekly monthly basis begin to grow their careers.
Greg Voisen
Well on wealth creation coaching.com That's well creation for coaches coaches.com. And we'll put a link to that in the blog. Well, creation for coaches.com. You have some free giveaways for the listening audience. So they can go there put in their name and their email address. And you've got some videos, you got some downloadable PDFs, you give away a lot is what you said to me. And I think for the listeners, you ought to take advantage for that. So wealth creation coaching.com
Kamin Samuel
Yes, wealth, wealth creation for coaches.com book site and you know, I didn't tell you this, but there's another site where they can get a ton of resources from me. And that's the wealth flight school.com Well, flight school.com Yeah, and that's the free that's all the free stuff, the wealth creation for coaches. is, is if you buy the book there are I taken many of the worksheets that are in the book and made PDFs out of them. There are a bunch of videos on the front page that you get access to just for me and Steve. And then there's some videos, one of my favorite chapters in the book actually turned out to be a bonus chapter, which is the anatomy of an enrollment call. And many people are always asking me, you know, tell me what, what do you do on an enrollment call. And so I wrote that out, there are videos on in the bonus areas from the book, but on wealth flight school.com, there is like a, there's several PDFs of my other books, anything that you want, and they can always reach out to me directly. If they want something else, I'm complete,
Greg Voisen
you can also get her at comedian Samuel S A M uel.com. And that's k m i n, so you can reach her there. So we'll put all these links for everybody. Sorry, I
Kamin Samuel
want to give as much cuz I really want my I'm really on a mission to help people, especially coaches and business owners create a sustainable and thriving business. They feel good. This is their calling they chosen whatever their career is, and to move into them.
Greg Voisen
Well, along that line, I want you to speak about this stair stepping approach. I mentioned it earlier, and setting stretch goals and the implications that this can have if we don't reach those goals. I know, I used to be somebody that set stretch goals, and I hardly ever made them. And I always thought to myself, Why am I doing that to myself, I feel like I'm beating myself up. If you would speak about the negativity biases, and that you referred to in the book by Jonathan is at Hyatt I called the happiness hypothesis. Because you know, that cognitive dissonance, I'm gonna call it between this is what I said. And the reality is, and it's a challenge. It's a challenge.
Kamin Samuel
It is and we are more than negativity bias is that we are more negative than positive. Exactly. We are naturally. So if anybody is listening, and they're like, you know, they think that they're the only ones who are negative, no, we're inherently negative, it's part of our survival mechanism, right? To keep us alive, we have to be on alert back in the day. And so, for me, I love to set stretch goals, but then I have to really bring it down to what's doable. And so a lot of the work I do is, what's the next step? What's the next step, because what happens in that negativity bias, if we create if we set a goal that's too high, in between this one, and this one, all the limiting beliefs, I can do this, nobody's gonna pay me I'm not good enough that all of that, and we literally just fall off a cliff. And so the ability for us to then look at, okay, this, we're here, we're here, little, very little negativity can get in. And so let's take an example of a client who says they say made 35,000 last year, and they want to make, you know, six figures. Well, the first thing is to bring it into, okay, well, 35, what's, what's a doable goal for next year? Initially, you can have the stretch goal, but it might be 50,000. And who would you need to be to get to 50,000? What would you be doing? What are the new actions and habits that you will be putting into place? And so this ability to stair step doesn't mean you might find that within six months, you hit 50,000. If we slow ourselves down, and take the step by step approach, versus this leap, where I have to like be, you know, Tony Robbins to believe that I can make $100,000 this year. Now let's, let's make sure Oh, that's just one or two more clients in this year. Okay, that's doable. Let's go work on that. And then And then, you know, this plot of, you know, lines that then get you to that, I will say, the getting these images, the artists who designed it was the stepping stones, the stepping stones, I love this, this, the artwork that was done for and there were there were iterations because some of the stones were too far apart and some of the stones were, you know, were too sharp. And so this ability, it was very conscious and literal for me, that people be able to take a step pause. See where they are. The other issue, if you go too big is the upper limit, you can trigger and this comes from Gay Hendricks work is you could trigger an upper limit if you reach that number, and I've had clients exceed their goals, and then ratchet themselves and self-sabotage, because they hadn't hadn't grown inside of themselves to own that they are at that next level. And so they pull themselves back. Well, one of the things
Greg Voisen
that you had it, you have had an advantage, and, and I don't think that a lot of people have that advantage. I mean, it's like, training to climb Mount Everest, right? You just don't get up one day and say, I'm gonna go up Everest. And the reason I say that, as I just finished a book called the precipice of life, which I interviewed 22 people, one guy climbed Everest 17 times. And it's just not, it's just not doesn't work that way. And as a pilot, you know, you are in a simulator, right? I think mountain climbers are in simulators, they have to go to certain areas where they can acclimate, you know, they learn how to do that. And they keep doing step by step by step by step, so that they can get to the 26,000 feet, right. But you speak with our listeners about what you refer to as the wealth exercise is a simulator and how replaying our vision of wealth can help us manifest it into reality. Because it's like, we need a simulator.
Kamin Samuel
Do you need a simulator? And I love the wealth simulator, because this idea of, you know, learning like there were so many steps. People say, Well, how did you become a pilot? Well, they had it nailed on, on the process to become a pilot. So it's not like you just walk out there one day and so for us as coaches and the well simulators, really something I picked up from the power of your subconscious mind by Joseph Murphy. Annie has a passage in there on wealth consciousness and, and it just stood out. And it was really just repeating the word wealth, not I am wealthy, as I said before, but wealth, what would it feel like? And so this ability for coaches or business owners, also to get an idea, whatever that next step is that next doable, believable step for them is in their business is full. Just take a few minutes in the morning, and as you go to sleep, what would it feel like to have that next client? What would it feel like to see $100 $5,000? Whatever the number come in, what you're listening for, when you're saying it's like, what would that feel like? I'm always listening for? Well, who would I be at that? What would I be doing? It might, I might get an idea, reach out to this person action items will come in, when we're feeling from that place of what we're doing that say, okay, reach out to him reach out to her send an email, oh, you need to do this. Those things begin to clear a path. And then all of a sudden, there's like this magic that happens, where you reach out to somebody, they're like, I was just thinking of you. Let's have a call. And there's just a synchronicity and flow to what you're there creating.
Greg Voisen
Yeah, I think you call it the power of attraction, you start to bring that in as you. I mean, affirmations have always been a big thing in the world. Right. And creating affirmations and I and I believe in them, they're important, because it helps to reprogram the subconscious, no matter how you're doing it. And, and you state, that it took you a long time from thinking about being a coach to becoming a working prosperous coach. That's the same thing with a businessperson. I think you're talking about six figure income. But you know, and I don't want to get into this so crazy at this point. But you know, you can gross six figures, but that doesn't mean you're netting because of your expenses, and that's all about budgeting and looking at what you're spending money on and everything else and then people go well, and it grows this much money, but what did you really earn? Roger? That's right. So speak with us about listeners about what you refer to as solving the procrastination puzzle that you referred to and what's his doctor's name? Dr. P yc. A.
Kamin Samuel
Cycle I think,
Greg Voisen
psycho and I know that for a fact Pardon me, but procrastination is a big part of this. And you have to look at why are you procrastinating? And you and I know this because what is it that you don't believe you deserve in your life? Great.
Kamin Samuel
I'd like to look at it as you know, if someone I actually love when someone says they've been procrastinating, that, to me is the most fun. Because what I want to know is between the time you said you were going to do something, and the time you didn't do it, what was the story? What did you tell yourself? About your abilities? Who, you know, what do you know? Can you do this? Whatever, because that's gold for a coach. Right? And for us, as coaches like me, for me, I procrastinate. I know exactly. I know, you know, I tell people, I'm running a group and I had them write down, what does it look like when you are hiding from work? Like, if you're not successful, what will you have been doing? And for me, it's actually cleaning in the middle of the day. If I'm cleaning in the middle of the day, I know that I am, I am absolutely procrastinating. And I need to and I just need to bring my awareness to it. Maybe jot a finish maybe what I was doing, quickly, put a time limit on it, and then write down. What is it that I'm worried about? What is it I'm afraid of? Is it that I is it that the steps that I have are too big and I need to break and chunk them down into you know, as we talked, we've learned three foot tosses. Because many times, it's just the story, it means nothing that we procrastinate. It's just the story. Let's get in and get at
Greg Voisen
it. Yeah, well, you know, put down the Mr. Clean bottle and the rag and go back to work. I actually think sometimes it's there at all say this about bike riding, hiking, taking a walk on the beach, there's a level of solitude. So in your case, it might just be the cleaning, if you are trying to get away from I think the complexity. Yeah, there's so much complexity involved in owning a business today. And, and I don't want to make that a statement to scare people. I want to make it a statement to tell people that you can master that complexity. But we have to deal with it,
Kamin Samuel
and break it down to something that's doable for them. Yeah,
Greg Voisen
yeah, exactly. You know, because some people time block, some people don't. Some people set their calendars up some people don't. You, you really have to find where you resonate really well with this. And there are people that are making very good money at doing coaching and running businesses. I got clients, they don't time block, they just you know, they're add their ADHD, they're all over the place. Yet. They have people skills, they've got great people skills, so they find other people to do that. Right. So, you know, you kind of look at but you speak about a very important element you call client creation time. You mentioned it about five minutes ago. Can you tell the listeners what it is and how to go about creating clients? Because look, that's the acquisition phase of this business. And I love that chapter because you gave lots of tips and lots of things that people could do. If there was one chapter you roughed out, you wanted to rip out of the book, it was probably the client creation one. Right?
Kamin Samuel
Right. And that actually, we did make into a checklist and I have people like print it out and put it on their screen, so that they come in. Because with that, it's like it's more prescriptive, Greg, that I wanted to be. But I also it was a literal answer to a client in one of my groups. It was like, I don't know what to do now. And I'm like, oh, here, I don't want you to think about it. Just go to this list and choose something today that that would be of service to somebody. And when
Greg Voisen
you pardon me for interrupting. When I saw that chapter, I remember an interview with Pamela Slim. Do you know who she is now? Okay, Senator, he you shed and she was telling a story in the book about, oh, these people that are running their businesses and how they procrastinated. And she just like you gave a checklist to this woman whose business had gone down the other side and she was so depressed. And she said, what are what did you stop doing that you were doing? Because that's what happens you Oh, I'm gonna go clean, I'm getting Mr. Clean out, go do this, because I'm avoiding doing that other stuff. Because I think there's too much rejection. But whatever it is she, she did it. And she literally escalated the business three times greater than what it was from the checklist. So you give a checklist in that thing. And I'm telling listeners right now, go buy this book, and just go to that section about the creation,
you will have quadrupled your money, just from that one chapter.
Kamin Samuel
Because many people come in and they and they're like, I don't I don't know what to do. I've talked to everybody. Have you really talked to everybody? And so there's a list of like, you know, you can email you could do client astonishment, meaning, like, I've called Client in the middle of the day, and they're like, what's wrong, like? And I'm like, No, I just wondered that you came to mind, I just wanted to see how you're doing. You're working on this project. And they were like, Oh, my gosh, this is amazing. And so
Greg Voisen
class honors, man, I love it.
Kamin Samuel
You can send a book, you can email, you can create a video, but we want to make sure that we're using it, not just not just again, again, procrastinating by we're working on our website, I have people like, no, you work on your website, at TV time, at night, or after working hours. But be in motion, share your life, share what you're doing. If you're going to write something, write it and send it to one person then posted on your website or posted in social media. But the core is really to come back and get centered and ask themselves who could I serve, and just listen, and take action, and then do it again, over and over again. And there's a whole host of things that they can choose from?
Greg Voisen
Yeah, it's a wonderful world out there, we have so many tools, you know, somebody told me about chat GPT, which I know almost everybody, it's da, I need it. But I have not, I don't know what it's all my gosh, I got involved in it. And it's writing all my emails for me and doing it's, it's crazy. But the point is, is that your book is filled with really great advice for like bidding coaches, as well as well, seasons, coaches, as well as business entrepreneurs. This book really kind of fits that whole spectrum. If you were to give our listeners today, three bits of actionable advice that they could leave with today from this podcast, and literally Institute within the hour, right? I'm gonna go do what can mean set and you think it would make a change or a shift and help them transform one element of their life? What would that be?
Kamin Samuel
So I think that's such a great question. And it's like, okay, what would the first one would be first was look at your beliefs. Look at look at what you want to create, and what is the belief that has been holding you back from actually taking action, and then rewrite it right away, put it on, I have three by five cards all the time, three by five cards, that it's just the way I work, is to write it and put it in front of you that new belief, oh, I am enough. That's another thing. Write it on your mirror. I am enough. Put it everywhere. Because the more we can see that and own that the more we can be move forward in our life, then it's number two would be then what's that first step? Where are you? And what's that next doable? Maybe a teeny bit of stretch, but not this big? What's that next step? And what are what are some action items and go do those. And then the last one really is just the third one is move into action, move into action be of service to somebody today. There are so many we know that there are so many people who are suffering right now. And the coaches and business owners who are really coming from their gifts and they're calling to do their thing in the world. Go do that be of service share yourself, help somebody today whether you get paid or not use the testimonial but allow it to nourish you we get nourished when we're giving and serving. So the ability for that exchange and allow them to pay you if that's you know, I come from the prosperous coach world from the Steve Chandler and rich livin the ability for us to give and receive is so much a part of this coaching practice. Yeah,
Greg Voisen
I echo everything you said and I'll add one additional thing To create action in your life, you have to be have a high level of awareness of what it is that you're doing, or not doing. So whether it's mindfulness practices or meditation, or whatever you're going to be doing. from a spiritual standpoint, it's very important to get into that connection and listen to that higher spirit that higher power. And we've been on with communion Samuel, this is one of the books wealth creation for coaches, we'll have links to all other websites. The other one that she co-wrote with Gay Hendricks and Carol Klein is this one though, the conscious luck workbook. This one is equally as good by the way, folks. So you know, go out and get it, go out and get a copy actually get a copy of both of these right? I'll put them both up. There you go. And, but coming, thank you so much. Namaste to you. Thank you for being on inside personal growth and spending some time with the listeners, providing them with some wisdom and some coaching on how to become a good coach, and also how to become a good businessperson just generally overall, and running your business. So thank you.
Kamin Samuel
Thank you.
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Inside Personal Growth with Greg Voisen · Podcast 990: Build Your Village with Florence Ann RomanoJoining me for my 990th episode is village and childcare advocate and philanthropist, Florence Ann Romano. She has a new book entitled Build Your Village: A Guide to Finding Joy and Community in Every Stage of Life to be released on February 21.
Being a former nanny of 15 years, Florence has always have a special place in her heart for children. She has the authority on childcare and family support in this new millennium and has more than five hundred media appearances discussing these topics and has been featured on ABC/CBS/ NBC and FOX TV affiliates, Home & Family, The Jenny McCarthy Show, SiriusXM, and more. Now, Florence serves on the Executive Board of the Children’s Research Fund (CRF) at Lurie’s Children Hospital and is a founding member of Sesame Streets Leadership Council.
With her advocacies, Florence is set to release a book on February 21 entitled Build Your Village: A Guide to Finding Joy and Community in Every Stage of Life. In this book Florence answers these questions and more, helping you to build lasting relationships with those in your life, dispel isolation, and improve your overall happiness and health. Each chapter helps you to foster the villager qualities within yourself and to find others who display these qualities.
If you want to know more about Florence, you may click here to visit her website.
I hope you enjoy my engaging interview with Florence Ann Romano. Happy listening!
You may also refer to the transcripts below for the full transciption (not edited) of the interview.
Interview Transcipt -Not EditedEmailDownloadNew TabGreg Voisen
Welcome back Inside Personal Growth. This is Greg Voisen, the host of Inside Personal Growth. And joining us from the Windy City in Chicago is Florence Ann Romano. And we were just talking about how cold it is there. Good day to you. How are you?
Greg Voisen
Good day to you. It's bitterly cold, but it's a nice warm feeling here with you. So all good.
Greg Voisen
Thank you for that, and before we get going, because we're going to be talking about a new book that releases very shortly called Build your village. And this book is going to be out on the 21st of February. But you can pre order now on Amazon. So no problems there. Go ahead and get your pre order a guide to finding joy and community in every stage of life. Let me tell the listeners a little bit about you. I'm Florence and Romano is a personal growth strategist, philanthropist and an author. In this new book we're going to be speaking about, you'll get to learn more. It's beyond words book, which is a great publisher, so great place to go. She's always had a special place in her heart for family and community. She worked as a childcare provider for 15 years, and believes the key to family success lies in focusing on what she calls the trifecta, parent, child and caretaker, working in unison toward common family goals. She's been featured all over the place. If you go to our website at Florence and.com. You will see she's been on 500 National local outlets. Across the country, ABC, CBS, NBC, Fox, home and family, the Jenny McCarthy show series examine more. As we said she resides in Chicago. She earned her degree in performance theater at Bradley University in Peoria, Illinois, and is served as the president and founder of a nonprofit board dedicated to autism awareness, and now serves on the executive board of children Research Fund at Lori's Children's Hospital, and is a founding member of Sesame Street Leadership Council. Well, you have been a busy woman. And I can appreciate that because I know when you do charitable work, it takes a lot of your time. And you're really dedicated to that. And I really appreciate that because you're doing good. And that is its own community, the charities that you work with, but tell our listeners a little bit about what inspired you to write this book. Build your village and your background, you were known as the Windy City nanny for over 10 years. So when you see a lot of her interview, she'll see people talking to her about, you know, her being a nanny and how to take care of things. But when you think about it, there's a direct correlation there between that and actually building community
Greg Voisen
Well, thank you for that beautiful introduction, and I am going and reflecting all that back to you. You have such a beautiful way of showing your heart through throughout the philanthropy and I know myself and your listeners all are very inspired by that. So thank you for having me today. So as the Windy City nanny, I was in childcare for over 15 years, I feels like I'll totally different life now. And I think back on it, but it was the best time of my life. And not only was I a nanny for over 15 years, but I grew up in a multi-generational house. I'm an old fashioned Italian girl. My grandparents lived with us growing up, there was a point where my grandmother and I shared a bed for several years and, and then you know, they got older and we ended up becoming their caretakers. I also have a special needs brother. He's 35 and has autism. And he's always gonna have the mind of a child and that's always comes with its challenges too, but also beautiful in so many ways. So I feel like in my life, Greg, I've really been surrounded with a lot of opportunities to learn compassion, to learn caretaking to learn responsibility. And so it was a natural fit, I think for me to become a nanny in my life. And I did absolutely love it. I wrote my first children's book actually several years ago called nanny and need to help children learn about the transition of being cared for by their parents or a caretaker to being cared for by a nanny. And was always being cared care taken care of by their parents to them being taken care of by a nanny or caretaker. Because the truth is the statistic is over 65% of families in America today have a nanny or childcare of some kind. So it's not something that's trendy. It's really a part of our life today. And so I started really honing in and focusing in on what community looked like from a young age from the eyes of the nanny, but then also in my personal life. And so once I retired from being a nanny and started talking about childcare in the new millennium and how we build families in the dynamic of families, it started to give me a very different point of view about what it actually means to have village whether or not you have children.
Greg Voisen
Well, it's interesting you say that because you know you I'm sure for my listeners, they can see that correlation and I know I'm Even my son, I have a son that's 40 years old. And they have a full time nanny. They've got two kids, they live in the Bay Area. And it's a pretty common thing. For families. Sure, have nannies. And not only, not just part time nannies, we're talking like full time nannies.
Greg Voisen
Right? These are pairs the whole thing? Yeah.
Greg Voisen
Well, and they because today, it's a two income earnings situation, you know, and let's talk about that, because you mentioned the introduction in your book, that we obviously COVID helped this, it kind of thrusted forward, but we have a loneliness epidemic that plagues our country. And this social isolation increases a person's risk for death. Now, I totally understand that correlation from a psychological and a mental standpoint as well. And that turning into physical ailments that actually beget themselves from that, how do you recommend building the support structure and community and a village that we need to survive and thrive in these kinds of challenging times? Because, you know, it, I echo, I was telling you about Cormac in the community building, and we started talking about, you know, well, these people are isolated, and nobody's talking to one another as much anymore. We're not getting together in these groups. And, you know, we know that COVID had a lot to do with that. But it seems like we're in a really busy world these days. And everybody's busy, busy, busy, right? They don't have time. So how do you want to help people get these communities built? The intelligence,
Greg Voisen
both words work, you know, try whatever you say, you know, everyone has a lot of words for it. It comes down to first accepting that you're not happy with how things are going. And that's usually what leads us to looking for community are looking for more friendships, looking for more arms around us in some sort of way. But just like anything in life, what I have found to be the most challenging thing is I can sit here and tell you that I'm upset about a way my life is going, perhaps. But it's, it's beyond that, because I can say that this is something I don't like, but how am I going to actually fix it? Am I going to try and fix it? It sounds like such a fundamental question. And so simple, but it's not. That's right. Especially with COVID. You know, we all got used to the yoga pants and the Netflix and that was always just so much easier than actually having to socialize with people. And then, you know, to your point of, we're just very busy. Yes, we are very busy. But Shall I also maybe dare to say we've gotten a bit lazy, too, I think when it comes to wanting to make these relationships. And so to answer your original question, what do we actually need to do to build these support systems? We need to find out what it is that's missing. What it is that's making you feel like there is a void or you are feeling that loneliness, you're feeling that isolation? Well, where is it coming from? Why do you feel that way? So it's almost like a doctor diagnosing the issue. You have to start there.
Greg Voisen
I would agree. You know, in the challenge that everybody is faced with, and I did an interview recently with his last name is sax and he said, the future is analog. And he not only talks about how the computer look at us, we're able to do these interviews. Now. It's a pretty common thing. Pardon me, we'll make sure that that gets knocked out. We have these interviews, we have this ability with this technology. We've got it always on, we've got our cell phones as well. And it kind of in one sense, yeah, we are connected, but we're not connected. Personally, we're like, hey, how many people are still going to movie theaters, they're actually being closed down. Right? In our town. Here. We're seeing that how many people are just sitting and having popcorn together? How many people are just instead of using Uber Eats are actually going out to eat and saying, Hey, we're going to get a bunch of people together and go out to eat together, right? We're just now seeing that kind of come back a little bit more now. But throughout the book, you provide exercises and help the reader develop deeper relationships. And that's where I'm going with what are some of those exercises? And you spend much of the book talking about the qualities for six essential villagers which are accepting dependable cheerleader, communicator, healer and organizer. Those are basically the terms that you're using to define those eight If you would, what are some of those exercises and talk a little bit about those six elements or characteristics?
Greg Voisen
Well, the reason I wanted to develop the six care the six villagers was because I wanted to be able to relate to something that was tangible. I want it to be able to look within myself and others look within themselves and think, okay, how do I use something as a measuring stick to help me figure out how to make that first step? So these six villagers I identify with? And this is how I would hope you use the book to you listeners, do you think to yourself, Okay, out of these six, who am I? Do I possess all the qualities of these six villagers? Am I maybe three out of the six to whatever it might be? There's no right answer to that. But then also looking outside of it. I'm these people, but who are the people that I need to cast in these roles in my village? And then who am I being cast in these roles in someone else's village? Again, we're looking at two different lenses here two different camps. It's, who am I and who do I need and who am I to other people. And so to use the accepting villager, for example, and you mentioned the quizzes and the exercises, I wanted the book to read as interactive, I didn't want it to just be here's all this, you know, just me talking at you and not actually giving you something that's something you can execute on easily. Because nothing is worse than reading a book where you feel like this is a huge lift, this is overwhelming, there's no way I'm going to do this. So I wanted at the end of each chapter to have action steps and gut checks. So the gut checks are things that you're going to think about, I just read this chapter, what's resonating with me, and then the action steps, things that you can do today that are easy for you to make that step. And so you work at kind of like a workbook that interactive, like I said, that also that you can repeat in your life, too. Depending on how your life changes the season of your life, you can keep working these steps, and it's all going to depend on your environment. So using that accepting villager, for example, who's the first one I talked about in the book? One of the questions I asked in the exercises is when was the last time someone confessed a problem? Or a secret to you? And I know that might be like, gosh, it's a little invasive. I don't know if I want to really answer that question. I'm not asking you to tell anyone publicly. But the second question to that is, what was your reaction to that news? What was your initial reflex to it? That says a lot about kind of who you are as a person and what aligns with your values. And what does it when someone confesses something or someone wants to talk to you about something, get something off your chest, it's very difficult, I think, for human beings to really tap into what empathy truly is. And that's what we're starting to go with this too is okay, I may not have this exact experience, I may not even agree with what this person is necessarily doing. But I'm here to support in some way, what this person is revealing to me and maybe not even support, work through something give advice. If that's what they're asking for. It's about how am I able to meet someone where they are instead of where I want them to be?
Greg Voisen
Well, let's talk about it. Because you're saying there's you and are you identifying in one of those roles? These other five roles? In other words, which one? And maybe this was great for you, Florence? Which one? Do you relate to?
Greg Voisen
All things
Greg Voisen
because I know you talk toward the end of the book about a compassionate communicator, right. And I know when I got my master's degree in spiritual psychology, one of the things you had to learn to do and probably why you do podcasts, you have to be a good listener. And but you also have to listen with empathy and understanding. And it is take a lot of practice, right? It's like, most people want to tell you their story. And it's like they just dump on you, you know, bla bla bla bla bla bla bomb, right? And, okay, you have to be very patient to listen to all of that right? But of these things where you have a cheerleader and a healer I was interested in the healer part too, because these actually the, the terms that you're using to define it are really very important. Pardon me.
Greg Voisen
Well, what's interesting about that to Greg is I feel like without me giving any sort of definition attached to the have six listeners right now, let's say I never told you what I define those six to be. I guarantee you as soon as you and I were saying those words, you're sitting there thinking in your mind, oh, you know what my best friend is definitely the healer, I think I'm probably more dependable. Yeah, that cousin of mine is the communicator for our family, you're starting to cast people into those roles subconsciously, right away. And that's the point of this. That's what I want everyone to do is start doing that exercise intentionally. And also, reflexively, because that's human nature, I want people to understand that what is being asked here of you is not something that is such a far fetched concept, you do a lot of this work yourself without already maybe realizing it, it's just now actually making it intentional. So
Greg Voisen
putting up I think the label is, I know, a lot of times people don't want to put a label. But I will say in this case, it's important because the mix is so important to this, it's almost like baking a cake, right? Yeah, you gotta get it right. And these are all the elements that you have to put in it to have the right cake. And then you talk about values, values that people bring to the village. And you ask the reader to answer three important questions to evaluate their values. And anytime we do purpose work in life, we're going to actually be thinking about what are our values? What are those questions? And how can knowing our own values and the values of another meaning does other people make for building a better, more cohesive, cohesive village?
Greg Voisen
I think the word values oftentimes, Greg can scare people, because they think that's when you're going to start imposing your value system on them, or it's going to have some religious connotation to it. And so I don't know why. But I found there's some hesitation there. When people say that word, there's always a defense mechanism for some reason. So that's why I want to kind of strip that away and say, when we're talking about values, we're just talking about what makes you tick. What do you believe in what it you know? What, what is the what makes up the fiber of who you are? How do you live your life? How do you raise your children? How do you surround yourself with people that are aligned with you in that way not to say that you shouldn't align yourself with people that also challenge you in the right ways. And that that's something we can get into in a minute. These questions you ask yourself about values, though. Number one, what does the ideal community look like to you? Why does it look this way? And how do your values influence that village? And lastly, how do you deal with someone whose values conflict with your own gosh, there could be a whole course done on just that, because look at the world, the world we live in today, it's so difficult for people to you know, this agree to disagree sort of thing. And you're now we're so extreme on opposite sides of everything. And the pendulum swings so swiftly, and there's no black and everything's black and white, there's no gray area. So you know, this is a big component of how we build relationships in our life. And if we're surrounded by people that are only like us, cookie cutter versions of all of us, we're never going to learn anything, you know, that's, that's never going to make it help us evolve. But there's a big difference between finding people that are like minded in a way that are going to support your value system. As you raise your children as you figure out who you are as a person, how you want to live your life, versus surrounding yourself with people that are not accepting of you that are going to make you feel bad about yourself, condemn you, or whatever it might be. There, again, there's big, big differences there when it comes to values and how you surround yourself with people. But starting with what does my community look like? That's the most fundamental question you can ask yourself is, what am I really looking for? Is it a lot of people, a small group of people? Is it people that may be subscribed to the same type of religion or maybe also have, have also have or this can be another whole separate category, believe in philanthropy a similar way than I do? Similar way that I do, and that may be that's how I would join an organization. So I'd meet more people that have that same type of heart. Again, it's about figuring out how it looks to you and then building from there.
Greg Voisen
Well, in any of these, there's going to be a symbiotic kind of relationship. In other words, that's it seems to happen. people gravitate, and build these communities around like minded people, you know. Now that doesn't mean that you can't have conflict. Sometimes conflict is good, it helps to resolve issues. We're going to have it but I know when I've gotten involved doing this kind of work, that literally you find people that have values that are on the same air, they're in the same area, right. And, you know, you speak about drawing up a map to a village, right. And I think that's a really good turn a road map to kind of creating a village, speak with the listeners about creating the map and the questions that they need to ask before embarking on creating a village. Because your advocacy here is really about, go out and create villages, right? Get involved, right. And I get that you're trying to get people out of their chair, that are moving again, to actually have, whether it's a Zoom meeting, like we're having or physical meetings, we're just trying to get people to connect again, connect, right makes the connection, whatever it is. And so what would you say about that map?
Greg Voisen
Well, the reason I liked the visual of the map is because I hear so many people say to me all the time. So everyone talks about this village, it takes a village, it takes a village, well, where's the map? Where's the phone number to call? You know, what is going on here? So I like the idea of okay, well, yeah, there is a map like, look, that's what this book is about, it's giving a map to that village. But to me, it's, it's, you know, someone's got to drive there, if you're going to, you know, go to this village, you know, and that's you, you have to be a part of this solution. And so let's look at it from different categories, perhaps let's say you're a college student, or you're a new parent, as a college student, sometimes that can be a jarring transition for kids, you know, you've never been on your own before that way. And now you are going to be at a new school, maybe in a new state, maybe in a new country, who knows. And you're going to have to meet new people and put yourself out there. So maybe you're going to join Greek Life sorority fraternity, or a club, that something that you're interested in is a passion of yours is a hobby of yours, okay, you're going to start meeting people, that's a really great way to put yourself out there and maybe make those friends. As a new parent, you're going to join those Mommy and Me or daddy and mommy groups, or you're going to get involved in your local community house that you have, or a church that has, you know, a group of people that meets on a weekly basis or a carpool group or things like that, I could go into so many details about things that exist that way. But beyond that, though, it's asking yourself questions to in order to develop that roadmap, how long do I need this village? How many villagers? Am I looking for? How much time do I have to give? And how can I remove myself from a village if need be, I know you don't want to think already about removing yourself from a village when you're trying to build it. But sometimes you do get involved and people places things like that, and it's not the right fit for you. And you may not want to offend anyone. But you're going to have a hard time extracting yourself from the relationship or a situation that does not serve you.
Greg Voisen
Yeah, one of the things I think when you get involved in especially if it's philanthropy work, and you've, you've said, hey, I'll do this, you don't want to let other people down, right. And so, you know, they're always looking for people that are going to do something to, to help raise money or to help put on an event or to do whatever, and you have the best intentions. And then you really realize sometimes how much time it's going to take, or you don't have the right connection with the bank loan. And so it does become a challenge. And that's brings me to the qualities of these six essential villages, and which you said was to be a communicator, one of them is, in each one of those chapters, takes those six and talks about it. But you speak about the signs of a consciously compassionate communicator. There's a there's a big difference between somebody who communicates and somebody who communicates consciously and compassionately. What are the signs and how do you know what type of communicator we are? Or they are, who they are.
Greg Voisen
It's looking at people's skill set to understand that everyone brings something different to the table. And the difference between being a communicator and a consciously compassionate communicator. When you are conscious of something again, hopefully, you're being more intentional. And also mean you're saying things that you mean that you're not saying? I mean, perhaps you know, it's all about the delivery and life and I think that's also part of being consciously compassionate as a communicator, because we could say, being consciously compassionate is something that you could apply to your life outside of being a communicator, but as a communicator, we could drill it down into some subcategories. And these again, are skill sets people have You are a writer, you know, the writer of the group, the speaker, the listener, the peacemaker, or the leader, these are different ways you can be a communicator, and let me give a little bit of color to that, as the writer, maybe you're the one in the community that is always sending out the emails about who needs, what's the people, or what's happening in the community, some of these people are suffering, you know, how can we gather people to support such and such, that's a great opportunity for someone who has a skill set of as the writer, and then there's, you know, the leader, I know, in my own community, oh, my gosh, there was always this one woman, she was at the forefront of everything, if anyone needed anything, she was the one making it happen, you know, whether or not it was someone passed away, and she was organizing the music for the funeral mass, or the funeral celebration, or whatever it might be, to being the person that was there showing up at someone's door when their house flooded, you know, to help them, you know, mop it up, I mean, and she was really the leader. And so I have found this in my life in so many different ways. But as we look at the communicator, these are all qualities a communicator can have, there can be others, of course, but it's about again, finding what people do well, not just you identifying it, identifying it in yourself and saying, This is how I can be helpful. This is how I can do something to make someone else feel seen, heard and understood.
Florence Ann Romano
Well look,
Greg Voisen
a compassionate communicator to as you said, she was the leader. But also, when I asked you the question, which one are you said, I'm all of them? And what I am, what I do know is that for a good community, there's a bit of all of those identifiers in all of us. It's the question is, which one of the strongest stat that we could come to this village with, and really add tremendous value to it. And one of the you mentioned the importance of a healer. And for my listeners, she means somebody who can compassionately listen, understand and help someone keel, what would be part of that and what makes a good healer in your relationship, and the estimation of their role to the village. In other words, here's this healer, hey, we've looked about look at Think about this. In every Native American and the South African tribes. There are always healers. There's the shaman. Right, right. And the shaman and there's people out there today, who are going down to do ayahuasca and saying, okay, I'm going to do as well, it's good. I have to have the shaman, right? Because I trust this person with my body, right? They're gonna they're gonna do right. What is it? What do you think in these villages inside the kind of villages I think you're trying to create. You're obviously not trying to create the ones where the healers come and do Ayahuasca but
Greg Voisen
that's one that could absolutely be one, too. I don't discriminate anytime. Good.
Greg Voisen
So talk with us about the healer, what role am I? Are you going to play as a healer?
Greg Voisen
Well, to go back for one quick second to talking about those six and how I do identify with all six. It doesn't mean I'm that person all the time to everybody. Right? That's an important thing to recognize is that there are different times in my life that I'm going to be more than maybe all of them or less, but also to looking at it and saying, Why do I choose the friends that I do you maybe you're going to need those certain types of villagers in your life during a certain period of your life, and you may not always need them. Let's talk about the healer, for example, you may not always need the healer in your life at a given time. But for me, it's not that this person is fixing you. It's not that they're there to even fix the problem. They are walking next to you in it. And my best friend and I always say to each other, you know, I can't fix it. I can't make it go away. I wish I could take away your pain or your hurt or whatever it is. But I do promise you that you're not alone that I am next to you. I'm with you. That's one of the things I always say on Instagram to whenever I talk or DM with anyone at the end. I always say with you that's kind of my way of kind of signing off a conversation, because that's what this is about. And the healer is that it's just someone that makes you feel like you're not alone in it. And to use an example of this was my best friend when her sister unfortunately passed away from thyroid cancer. Very young. She's only in her early 40s left behind two young daughters and I felt completely helpless on how to be there for her how Do you help, you know, your best friend go through this move through this grief. And at one time I was sitting, I was at her house and her mom was there on the kids and her children and her nieces, everyone was playing. And she and I were sitting on the couch together. And she just grabbed my hand. And we just kind of held hands watching the kids playing. Her mom took me aside later. And I said, I don't know what to do for her. I don't know what to do for you guys. And she said, I watched you too on the couch. And that moment, she was just sitting next to you holding your hand. And I could see that there was just a little bit of relief that kind of came over her in that moment she was that's all I need you to do. Just continue just to sit next to her be next to her. It didn't even take any words, it didn't take me trying to fix the situation, telling her it will be better. All of those things. I've often told her, it's not okay that it happened. It doesn't ever have to be okay, that it happened. And grief is whatever it's going to be however long it takes you to get through it. But in in my life with her in that moment. For those various months or even couple of years, I played the role of healer in that specific way in her life. And she has done the same for me in my life to when I've gone through different versions of grief that maybe we're not related to actually losing a person, a person who's died, but grief in all its forms.
Greg Voisen
Well, you bring up an important point. And I heard this once said, this is a compliment to your book. And the way you wrote it there. It's been said to me by a wise sage, that when you write a book, write a book as if you're speaking to your best friend, and you're in the movie theater whispering in their ear, I think. And I think what's important is that you're not telling people. Now you're just hey, we saw something really cool on the screen and you go, Hey, flights, and wasn't that really neat, right? You know, you're trying to share your excitement for your topic, right. And that's what I get throughout this book is your excitement for the topic of creating villages. And with that, let's ask a question about how we can actively practice compassion in the village, you tell a story about a boy that you observed near a local coffee shop. Now, knowing that you have a 35 year old brother who's autistic, I get it. And I used to raise money for a nonprofit called Terry, we had 625 autistic kids, and Down Syndrome kids. And I used to go in those doors every day. And the autistic kids and the Down Syndrome, kids would always come up to me and like pull on my pant leg. And they want to say hi or they'd want to give me a hug. And they're just so vulnerable, right? They're just always kind of open. And some of the artistic kids are quite a challenge. And I will say a lot a big challenge, right? But I saw you telling this story, as almost if I was sitting in that movie theater, and you're whispering in my ear, can you tell the story at what point you wanted to emphasize by the example of your actions. As a result of that story?
Greg Voisen
I was outside of coffee shop and I saw this boy, that, you know, when you grow up with a special needs brother, I think you're more sensitive to seeing around you perhaps people that are differently abled, whatever it might be. And so he was nervous about going into the coffee shop, I could see him talking to himself and trying to kind of pump himself up to go inside, if it's something was making him nervous. And so I noticed that there was a dog right by the door. And I was like, ah, that that's it. That's why he doesn't want to go in. He's scared of the dog. And he was trying to kind of self soothe and get himself up to the challenge of doing something that you know, had to be a little bit brave. And I was worried though, because he was agitated how he was going to be able to conduct himself when he got into that crowded Starbucks. And so I got nervous and got out of my car I was I actually just gotten into my car to leave. But I said okay, I just don't want him to be alone in there. He eventually saw that there was a side door and went inside, was able to avoid the dog but so I went in and I stood in line behind him and I could tell that he was kind of calming down he ordered his drink and you know, I ended up getting I think just a bottle of water because I forgot why I was even in there. I was like, oh, I'll just take water. I'm fine. You know, thank you. And I'm you know, waiting, you know, just kind of near him and he was he did just fine and nothing ended up happening. And he left And I love to but it the reason why this was an important moment for me was I thought to myself, gosh, if it were my brother, or it was someone I loved and someone was witnessing that this may be a challenging situation this may be interpreted incorrectly by people, I've seen people be cruel. I've seen people be unkind and not compassionate and, and have a hard time understanding why someone is behaving the way they are thinking that that person is just a rude person, or mean or whatever it might be. And so in that moment, I was ready to be the advocate for that boy, I was ready to be that mini village, maybe if he needed it. And I just not that I, I did the right thing in that moment, I don't know that I did. All I know is I hope that in life, we can observe around us a little bit more sensitively with a bit more empathy with a bit more compassion. And with a bit more gumption, perhaps to know that, you know, we don't have to do anything that is, you know, draws any attention, or is this big hero moment. It's those small things, those small moments of kindness or recognition, or selflessness that lead us to just creating that empathy effect, that ripple effect. And that boy taught me a lot in that moment about just being more aware of what's going on around me and how I can be helpful.
Greg Voisen
It was a great story. And it is heroic in nature, I mean, you must admit for you to get out of your car, take the extra time, go into the start bucks, you had compassion for this individual you saw through the scene, the picture, and you wanted to make certain they were safe. So in one small way, it was like, you know, I'm going to take this extra step to help somebody be safe. And we can't discount that, because there's an opportunity for everybody listening to help somebody feel safe every day, right, where they may be feeling uncomfortable about a certain circumstance or event or are something that happened in their life. And so that opportunity arises. And the only way you can take it Vantage meaning because it's a two way street of it is to be aware, right, you have to have a high level of awareness about what's going on around you. And we believe me, the person who's providing the compassion to the other person gets his bigger gift as the person who's in need of the compassion. And I think that's a really important thing to remember. And Florence, the book that you have written, it's failed. And let me hold it back up for everybody. Again, they're built your village, there it is. It's filled with wonderful instruction on creating a village, and the importance of doing so what are three actionable items that you'd like to leave listeners with, and they can utilize in forming their own villages.
Greg Voisen
I'm going to do a kind of a smorgasbord of things. One of my favorite sayings is my Angelou people forget what you said what you did, but they'll never forget how you made them feel. And I think that's really the essence of this book. It is talking about putting yourself and your feelings in the spotlight. And then also how can you put other people's needs and their wants and desires? And how can you be helpful in the spotlight as well. Number two, give yourself a lot of grace with this process. It is not easy, what I'm asking you to do. A lot of it sounds simple. But maybe you're going to take your time and really work on one specific chapter, maybe what you really want to concentrate on. And what you're interested in learning more about is how you can hone your skills of being a healer more, and that's where you're going to put your time and attention. And number three, understanding that this is a book that you can go back to time and time again, as you go through different areas, situations transitions in your life, you can continue to whip out this book and say, Alright, I'm feeling a little lost. I'm feeling a little lonely, I'm feeling a little misunderstood. I'm feeling a little whatever that fill in the blank is. And you can continue to work this book in that way to help you figure out all those different milestones that you want to reach or as you get older and it becomes more and more difficult for you to create those relationships. You have a place you have a NorthStar you have somewhere to be able to go that you know you can work the steps and you can actually find the
Florence Ann Romano
solutions. Well, for all my listeners,
Greg Voisen
Lauren San Romano has written a great book, build your village and then encourage you to go out there, go to our website at Florence and.com. Reach out to her send her an email, you can do it through the website, let her know you're there and you're building a village. And that you might need her help, you might need some advice. But this is a great book for anybody really nonprofit people. This would be a big, big book for them, right? Because there's so many great tips in it that you give people and I think, your prior experience as a nanny for 10 plus years, and really understanding that world and what it takes an understanding, you know, when you think about you wrote about isolation, you know, it's the parents feeling and I think you wrote someplace in the book was right in the beginning about sometimes the mother is feeling so bad because she's leaving the child with you, right? And how upset they are because they've got to go to work. And they're missing this part of the child's life. Right, then being a toddler, and not being able to be there for those moments that you 10 years had with so many other people's children. What a blessing that was for you. Because I know it was you know, you had some problems with the kind of conceiving that kind of thing. So I really want to honor you for this. I want to thank you for writing a great book for all of our listeners to go out again. Go to Florence and.com. Go to Amazon and buy a copy of the book. Thank you for being on compassionate, loving, kind soul that you are not mistake to you. Thanks so much.
Greg Voisen
Reflecting that right back. Thank you
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Inside Personal Growth with Greg Voisen · Podcast 989: Miracle Soul Healer: Documenting a Legend with William GladstoneMy guest for this podcast is prolific author, literary agent, publisher, film maker and my good friend William Gladstone. He is the owner of Waterside Productions and the author of the new book Miracle Soul Healer: Documenting a Legend released last October 2022.
William is known for his philanthropic activities and commitment to helping authors publish books that contribute to the well-being of others and to our planet. His company Waterside Productions is among the oldest and largest literary agencies on the West Coast and has sold more than 3,000 books to the trade since it began operations in 1982. His personal clients in addition to Dr. and Master Sha include Eckhart Tolle, Neale Donald Walsch, Thom Hartmann, Jean Houston, and many others.
Adding to his amazing works is his new book entitled Miracle Soul Healer: Documenting a Legend. This book explores the ultimate mystery of how faith, science, and healing can change your life. As William spent weeks with Dr. Sha watching him at work, talking to his students, and observing his healings, this book also explores the results and methodology of Dr. Sha’s unique life journey and his stated life mission to serve humanity and the Divine and create a healthier and happier world.
If you want to know more about William and his works, you may click here to visit his website. You may also visit his company website by clicking this link.
I hope you enjoy my engaging interview with William Gladstone. Happy listening!
You may also refer to the transcripts below for the full transciption (not edited) of the interview.
Interview Transcipt -Not EditedEmailDownloadNew TabGreg Voisen
Welcome back to Inside Personal Growth. This is Greg Voisen, the host of Inside Personal Growth. And for many of you, you don't know our guests. He's joining us from Cardiff, California. And his name is William Gladstone. And he owns Waterside Productions. And I've known Bill for many, many years. And it's a pleasure to have him on the show. I actually think this is the first time he's actually been a guest on Inside Personal Growth. So Bill, good day to you. How are you doing?
William Gladstone
I'm doing great. It is the first time I've been on your show. I think I've sent at least a dozen authors who have been on your show in the past. I and that's because I'm better known as a literary agent and publisher. But I'm also an author, though in the past, you know, my books have been novels like the 12 and books that wouldn't necessarily have fit for your show. But today, I'm delighted this book that I just rereleased doctrine, Master Sha, Miracle Soul Healer: Documenting a Legend is a perfect fit for your show. So that's why today's the first time you're going to have me on your show.
Greg Voisen
Well, and you have quite a history with Dr. Shay. It's Dr. and Dr. Shay Shaw, Shaw. I want to make sure I say it. Right. Yeah. And you know, the book was fascinating. As I was doing the review, I was reading some of the stories. And you know, you go back to being introduced to Dr. Shah. It's actually Dr. and Master Shaw is how it's referred through a friend of yours, Rick, freshman. You You met him in 2013? What kind of has your journey been like? Because, you know, it was like, Okay, let's publish this book. This guy had already been published and other places. He's got another book coming out. And you decided to take this project on. And it it seems like it was a real epiphany for you to work. Well.
William Gladstone
It was fun from the beginning. I have to say so, you know, back this is 10 years ago. Now. You know, we've been very successful. We represented the for Dummies series, made a ton of money. And then got into people like Neale Donald Walsch for special projects, Deepak Chopra, Marianne Williamson, so you know, and then we had a big success, of course with Eckhart Tolle. So you know, as an agency, we're kind of a big name. And Rick was a big time publicist in the book business, so he had, you know, represented the Chicken Soup for the Soul authors and some other very successful book authors. And he called me up out of the blue and said, Bill, I've got this author, and he's a New York Times bestselling author, and he wants an agent, well, as an agent who's gonna say no, you know, oh, sure. Let me talk to him. And so we set up the call. And for some reason, the call wasn't set up until like nine o'clock on a Friday night. And I'm in California. And I'm assuming that he's in California. Well, he was actually on the east coast. So this call went on for a couple of hours. And I'm thinking oh, so 11 o'clock, it's getting late, you know, you've been on the call a long time. And I find out it's two in the morning. And he's, he was as coherent. And as fun I have to say, Dr. Master shot is a unique individual, he has very high energy, obviously, he has an incredible task of training as both a medical doctor at China's best western medicine university, but then he also from the age of six, was motivated to learn tai chi, chi, Gong, herbal medicine, acupuncture, all the traditional Chinese modalities for healing. And on top of all that, he's a very intelligent individual who understands business. So the first two hours that I spent with him on the phone, we were talking about his contracts. I was, you know, we don't take people on. I mean, I'm not we've made enough money that, yes, you know, we don't ignore it. But it's not our primary motivation. Our primary motivation is helping authors and publishers because we represent publishers as well create and distribute books that are going to create a better world. So Dr. Shah fit that. But at the same time, if I don't think I can add value, I'm not going to take someone on. And I was very hesitant because it was a master shot. I looked at the contract had Rick had sent it over that he had with Simon and Schuster said, You have a great contract, you have great success. Why do you even need an agent? I you know, you already have great deals, and you said, Well, I did some research, and you did the dummies series. And that's really what I want. I want a series of books. And I want to sell hundreds of millions of books like you did with the dummies not just hundreds of 1000s of books and said well, I can't guarantee that level of success. But you know, I can actually get you better deal there's there's new things happening in publishing, we can do a profit share deal with someone. You're doing all of the marketing anyway. So yeah, I'll take you on. And that started the relationship. And I had already done and the first deal for him on his first book, which, to my amazement, he wrote from start to finish in less than a month, and it was a big book, Miracle soul healer. And I ended up selling it to BenBella, which was an up and coming publisher, and we got a great deal. And then he was giving a healing conference of some kind in Solimar, California, which is not too far from Cardiff, I can't remember exactly, it's up the coast. But I have other clients. So I always, you know, make a trip every few months up the coast. So I said, okay, let's meet. So I drive up. And I'm with my wife, Gail. And I'm in Salem, Oregon, I'm looking around, and I see this Chinese man in a suit, and sitting on a bench. And I said, I bet that's Dr shot. But anyway, so we have to go to our hotel and check in and all like that. And then he was the the person. And we had arranged to meet at the Chinese restaurant nearby in the town near there. And we went to dinner. And we had about an hour and a half before this event that he wanted to have us participated mainly, you know, just observe what he was doing. And I was struck by the fact that he's such a humble guy. I mean, well, this was not a fancy Chinese restaurant, you know, as normal sort of every day, kind of, and he was just a normal everyday guy. And this is interesting. So then we go to the event. And now it's, you know, nine o'clock at night, at least maybe even 10. And this room is full, it's probably close to 1000 people, I don't know, 600, at least, I don't know the size of it, but it's full. And they're all there. And they're like, totally riveted to every word he's saying. And he takes up this blackboard and he starts teaching. He's teaching about the nature of energy, and the nature of healing. And there's all diagrams and it's like, I'm, I'm back at college, I mean, this is teaching. And then about an hour into it after the teaching, he brings out an individual who they have identified as having had very severe cancer. And they've been able to reduce the cancer from, you know, significant size to a very small size. And they haven't they're to continue to do the work. So they actually master shot does his at this time he was using mostly chanting, it was he never touched the individual. And he actually was having the people who were all student healers, which I didn't understand when I first went there. And they, he was teaching them how to do what he does. And that's what really got me interested, because I've done books about John of God, and I've done books about other miracle. So one that sold miracle healers, but I'd never met anyone who not only was able to heal, but was able to teach others how to heal. So this really intrigued me. And I should share with your audience. I have a background as a scientist, I had an article published as an undergraduate in the Yale scientific when I was a student at Yale. And then I went to Harvard University where I studied medical anthropology. So I had a background in this, which is one of the reasons I was so intrigued. And I know about the placebo. And that is, you know, always a factor in healing. In fact, the strongest correlate cross culturally in all studies and of anthropology is that the leading indicator of success is belief in the practitioner, no matter what modality even with Western medicine, if you don't believe you have a much less chance of success of he'll appeal. So I thought maybe this is just that and but then, you know, we after the success of the first book, master shot was not totally satisfied with the results. We sold three 400,000 copies I was satisfied for that was great. But you know, we still hadn't gotten to our million copy book, and it was actually the publisher of BenBella. Glen. Yes, he's a good friend of mine who said, well, you know, you should do something like your dummies books you should do like Dr. and Master shot for dummies. And of course, we couldn't do that because Wiley owns the for dummies. trademark. They said, okay, well, I could do it, you know, because i Right very quickly. And you know, I enjoy writing. So I said, I'll write I'll write a book about Dr. Master Sham. That's that was the first edition of miracle soul healer. And my goal in this book, is really to introduce people who have no background in healing, no background in spirituality, no background in Chinese
Greg Voisen
techniques. Yeah,
William Gladstone
medicine. Who is this doctrine master shot? How has he achieved what he's achieved? What has he achieved? Is there true scientific evidence that these are real? Are they replicable? And then, after I had written the first draft of the manuscript and did share it with Dr. Master shove, be sure I had everything correct, because there's a lot of individual information about his family. And I wanted to be sure I had everything correct. He said, I liked your book, but it's missing a whole part. So what's that, you have to talk about my master teachers and students that are also healing. So we added another section to the book. And you know, there's about a dozen of his top teachers who I also profile, including their successes, and that's where I really, at that time was completely dumbfounded. Because how can you possibly teach someone to do this kind of healings, because as far as I had been able to determine, it really was based on Dr. Sean's own connection to what he calls the source for the Dow. Right, his ability to sort of bring in and this may sound
Greg Voisen
strange just named Bill doesn't he call it the dung Yi Gong. Unbelievable power I, you know, speak with the listeners about that. He used this process to heal people. Yes. I may be saying this wrong.
William Gladstone
No, no, but yeah. And just so you know, I'm going to talk in plain English, I don't use any of his Chinese language, because
William Gladstone
the book has all the Chinese words, and it has even the pronunciation. I don't know why I'm not dyslexic. But even when I see oh, you pronounced like this, I pronounced it incorrectly. So same things that any Chinese listener would say these guys are idiots. I just use English equivalents. So what I've learned about that, I mean, it's, I mean, it's, I do want and can't pronounce, apparently, Chi is energy. Yeah, she in the Chinese system, is responsible for everything, the movement of energy, everything related to health. And Dr. Schatz system, she is controlled by the, by the heart, that heart can send energy to the cheetah, which is the body, and that can heal, but you have to go to what he calls the soul. So I don't know what the word is being used in Chinese. But I mean, I do know the word but it can't pronounce it properly, but it's the soul. So you go to the soul, the soul moves the heart, the heart moves, the Chi, the matter. Because it is you have to get down to the level of matter. We're all matter. We live at the level of matter, right. But then what I've learned, and I didn't know this, at the time, I wrote the first edition, this is one of the reasons I rewrote the book, and added a lot of material, I have a much better understanding now of the methods, because each one of us has what he calls soul energy. But then there's the ultimate soul energy, which is the soul energy with the Dow. And so that's why if I had rewritten this book today, and didn't want to use, you know, I would have had to totally, totally rewrite it, I would have changed the title. And I may do a third edition five years from now I want to understand even more, and I would have I would call it Dow miracle soul healer, because it's really about accessing the Dow. And I now understand from Master shops that when he's accessing the Dow, the Dow is, I mean, I now co-host an entire show an hour every week, just going through the what they call the Dao De Jing, which is the original explanation of the DAO, written by Lao Tzu more than 2600 years ago. And and the very first chapter that Lao Tzu says the DAO cannot be seen, cannot be heard, cannot be touched, and cannot be understood by human beings. But, and it's not even called the Dow. But we're going to use the word Dow. And we're going to give as much information as we can. So human beings can benefit from understanding the source, the source of all and it's an eternal source that always has existed
Greg Voisen
before he calls it universal law and universal science, right? Yes, that's what that's what you refer to it. You know, he had this divine encounter and your interview with him about the divine encounter and what you learned about what he refers to as universal law universal service.
William Gladstone
Yes. Well, that that is actually underneath the Dow because the Dow created heaven and earth, the Dow created the gods, actually. So when he's talking to God, he's talking to let me just finish that and then we'll get back into this. But before there was the big bang, there was the dowel after the contraction because many sciences thinks the entire universe you know, expands and then contraction and we'll come back to you know, can't even describe it. It will be so small, and you know, virtually from our experience at the level of reality, we live, disappear, and then the whole thing will start over again. But the Dow itself is immune to all of that the Dow is before creation before the Big Bang after the Big Bang. It's truly eternal. And everything that we can imagine sense or possibly experience is derived from the source from the GAO itself. So it's a fairly common flex concept. Science cannot prove it, because it's at a level and in a dimension ality that is beyond science. But there's nothing in our science, including, you know, many new findings about non local quantum entanglement, everything that's been discovered in the last 50 years that supports this type of theory, and many of my other authors, including Deepak Chopra, who has written extensively on the subject that we don't really exist. Now, of course, we exist. But we exist almost in the way that a video game exists, where we are not really the creators of our hologram.
William Gladstone
Anyway, so it can I think the word The
Greg Voisen
Dow is a way for people to look at. I'm gonna say this, because I think you and I have been in this community for a long time. And I've done I'm just about close to 1000 interviews now with people on spirituality, and these kinds of things. And sometimes it's a bit amorphous. So you have to kind of put your hands around a word or something to try and explain this and I get what you're trying to explain is challenging you do a great job in the book it in and that's I'm going to encourage my listeners, go get a copy of the book, it's up on Amazon, check out waterside productions as well, if you've got an interest in learning more about Bailey puts out a weekly or monthly newsletter as well about all of his new authors. But you know, this is soul healing. You've said this a couple of times so I want to go back to this soul healing.
William Gladstone
And now we're ready for that. I just wanted to get the broader Okay, next what you know at the time I wrote the book, but you're absolutely right. It
Greg Voisen
comes down to he comes down to in the book are you did? Yeah. From all these practices, chi gong, tai chi, acupressure, acupuncture, yoga, all these healing practices are considered energy medicine, right? Yes. Everybody out there listening in my audience is they get energy medicine. We've all done it. Speak with us about what you and Dr. Shaw or in more importantly, what Dr. Shaw says energy medicine is to heal the soul.
William Gladstone
Okay, so you start in masters Shas system of belief. Everything has a soul. Every individual molecule has a soul, every individual human being has, you know, I don't know if there's a trillion atoms, whatever he is in each of us, but each one of those atoms has a soul. And the soul of that atom controls the destiny of that atom. So what Dr. Shah focuses on is connecting to the soul of the area that is symptomatic. So if you're suffering from I mean, his most recent book was just dealing with back pain. So if you're suffering from back pain, he now and this is we'll get into this the
Greg Voisen
the colon polyp that you're dealing with, well,
William Gladstone
I'm working, I'm working with master shot on that, okay, special calligraphy I could even go get. And I trace it now he's put all of his energy and he didn't do this when I first met him. This is something he's evolved over the last 10 years, he has found a way to take his healing energy and put it he goes into what I would call a semi trance where he's connecting with a different dimension of realities. And that dimension of reality brings in the healing energy, and he puts it into the calligraphy and then he has the individual patient, trace the calligraphy you can either do it with your hand, you can actually the most effective ways. It's almost like you do a dance where you're coming from your core and you're tracing the calligraphy if you're unable to move because you're in a severe medical situation. You can just also do it with your eyes you can trace it with your eyes. And by doing this, you are recreating the energetic connection that he is able to create with the dowel within Okay, so I That is the basis now of the majority of his healings. Now he has other modalities. Also, he has doubts on so in addition to giving me this wonderful calligraphy, he created a seven minute chat. And he says, just play the chat, play it, you know, even when you're sleeping, it's going to be working. So and he doesn't ever promise, you know, because every individual in his belief system has a fate that is linked to that individual's karma. He believes all of us.
Greg Voisen
So the karma cleansing is the, you know, go to that, you know, how does it work? Well, because we're looking at karma is all of the things that happened to us through the course of all the various reincarnations are bringing, well,
William Gladstone
it's even more complicated than that, because it's not just your karma. It's the karma of your ancestors of your family, because you have the same DNA, so that DNA has responsibility at the cosmic level. So you may have had impeccable past lives. You. And you know, frankly, in the beginning, I not a believer in reincarnation. So I was a little skeptical, but everybody's got their own sort of way. And as long as it works, you know, maybe this is correct, I'm now leaning more, there probably is something to this, but I think it's even more complex. And Dr. Shah is stating, because there is a level on which there's sort of the Divine Law of Balance, you can call it a Karma law. And I do believe in that I've seen it, you know, in small ways, but I think, you know, what he's referring to is, there's a much larger way, sort of the yin and the yang, there, everything's going to be balanced in the end. And so maybe it is true that you've led an impeccable life, and you've led a good life, in your past lives, but you come from a family that's taken advantage of others done some terrible things, you're gonna have to pay for the sins of the father, we can call it. So no one is immune to having negative things happen to them, no matter how good a human being you may be. So when that happens, Dr. Shah believes you have to clean up the karma, whether it's your own personal karma, or the karma of your ancestors. So that's his first point of attack. And he has ways of helping you do that. And one thing Dr. Shah will always say is, you know, I am just a servant, and I am not in charge, you have the ability to heal yourself. I give you these tools, use them. And I hope they're going to work for you. But Dr. Shah and I have discussed there are situations where he has, because he does have a connection to the divine. And you know, he just goes in, and if somebody comes to him with a illness that he doesn't feel he can he'll tell them, No, I can't, I can't help you. So it's not 100%. In my observations and studies of him, he rarely says no, it's less than one to 2% of the time that he'll say, this is something I can't help with. But when he says he can help, he doesn't guarantee says, it's really going to be dependent upon the karma of the individual. I can give them the tools. And if, you know, they're open to it, in most cases, and I've recorded personally investigated hundreds of cases, and I've seen 1000s of cases of miraculous healings. I mean, people with severe cancers, people with spontaneous
Greg Voisen
remission is it's been around for some time. This thick written on spontaneous remission occurs, but
William Gladstone
yeah, but spontaneous remission. does not explain how you can have 1000s of spontaneous remissions.
Greg Voisen
No, no, I get that. What I'm saying though, is, you know, also to, to get to this, you know, when you were kind of kicking the tires around this, because you're not saying you have skeptic skepticism. I was skeptical. No, but I was skeptical, you know, and then you went to this ruling Zhu Zi, Xiu, I don't know how to pronounce the last name. Yes. Is that introduced me to this ruling? Zoo? Yeah. Okay. Speak with us about the meeting with her and what you learned about Seoul? Because she evidently, was another resource for you to actually back up. What?
William Gladstone
Well, that's what I was saying about the science and she, she's from China, but she was educated at Berkeley, which is one of the best universities in the United States. And she's a PhD candidate, and then got her PhD. With the hope of uncovering the unified field theory, that is sort of the ultimate goal of a physicist, and you know, you've had 1000s of physicists over the last. Ever since Einstein presented the unified field as a concept. Try I'd like to derive the underlying reality of the unified field and explain it, and no one's been successful. So Ruhlin was so frustrated for a time she gave up. And then she met Master Sha, unrelated to her core interest in science, and was trained and became a healer herself. And then she realized that what Master Shah was doing, explained the true nature of the unified field, and went back and worked with master shot to develop what she calls the science. And so there are now other scientists who are looking at the formulations that Ruhlin and master Shah have created together, they even came up with an equation to explain it all. And it's fascinating, and it does support from a scientific perspective. This is why people like Deepak Chopra, have jumped on the bandwagon and attended special events that we've held with both Dr. Ruhlin and master Shah, trying to understand how this healing really works. Because for me, there has it's wonderful. And it isn't enough if you're in need just to go without understanding the science of it. But my father was a chemist, he studied with Yuri, who won the Nobel Prize in Chemistry. So I was raised, where you really had to have a scientific method if you're going to accept something. And so I've been pushing for that. And I think there's a lot of people who feel similarly, the results are great, but how does it work? Why do I
Greg Voisen
think many listeners like you have the background? They say, evidence based, right? You know, I just did a big project with Mayo Clinic. I'm now working with Dr. Richie Davidson, the guy that's worked with Dalai Lama for the last 30 years, who has now an app out, right, so Dalai Lama says to don't study anxiety, and depression, study compassion, and whatever. he dedicates his whole life to this now he's back in Wisconsin two weeks ago, with the whole team. The point was, is it you know, he puts all the electrodes on the head, and they do the studies, and they say, you know, neurologically, this is exactly what's happening under stress. This is what's going on. Right. So, you know, he is saying he has the biggest evidence based pool of data that actually warrants mindfulness meditation practices, right, which we're doing so is that oh, no, but and then I have someone else on the other end of the spectrum bill that says, hey, but what's what your, your, that's this, there's a symptom that's causing that stress? Are you treating that? Or are you just take doing the meditation and mindfulness practices? And that would be like, hey, adverse childhood experiences, the ACE studies that many doctors here at Kaiser have been working on with people and so on. And you know, you say you look at this community around you your science, science and evidence base. And I think for a lot of people, it's, it's very important, whether they're on my show, or they're not, or they're, or they're just out there listening to this podcast, they kind of want proof.
William Gladstone
Well, that's exactly where I'm headed as well. So master shot in addition to working with, he attracts very bright, intelligent, dedicated people. So one of his master teachers is a man, Dr. Peter Doba, who is a neuroscientist, very highly regarded. And forget which university in Canada, but one of the best. And anyway, he has teamed up with Dr. Master shop, and they've done studies and medical studies that with hundreds of patients, evidence based studies showing the effectiveness. So that was part of my research. And, and this has been ongoing. Is
Greg Voisen
that in the is, is that kind of something that's coming up in the next series of the book? Yes,
William Gladstone
absolutely. Yeah. Because you're I'm waiting for the final because as you know, with science, Oh, okay. Now we have this study, now you have to replicate it. I mean, you know, they're doing as thorough research as was done well, more thorough, frankly, in my opinion, you know, for the COVID vaccines where
Greg Voisen
everybody was, yeah, no, I know that. You mean, I got the whole controversial stuff around that. But here, look, your daughter had cancer.
William Gladstone
Yeah, my stepdaughter. But yeah, and this is totally, totally documented, and we could get her on the show as well. So she was diagnosed with breast cancer with stage which is pretty serious. They said, You're gonna have to have an operation, we're gonna have to remove the breast. And, you know, there's no guarantee we'd get there in time. You know, you could still have cancer after that happens and many women die from this. So this was all scheduled. We found out this was when Master Shah was just starting to use the calligraphies. I, probably about eight years ago, it was after I'd written the first edition, but of the book, but so you know, we called and because of our relationship, he sent her a calligraphy. And he sent her a chance. And she played it religiously, and she traced. And I think she died all of that about a month before her operation. And when they went into operate on her, they said, this is kind of strange, we can't find the cancer, but we know it was there a month ago. And we're gonna still go ahead with the operation, because we don't want to take the chance that we're just not finding it. So they did operate on her anyway. But the good news is, the cancer has never returned. There is no cancer right now. And this is eight years. So this is this was quite, I mean, miraculous. I had some small things that had given me sort of eye opener, maybe this really does work when I was skeptical. I play a lot of golf. And I had a big tournament coming up. And I had golfer's elbow, Greg, I think is a golfer, your and other golfers will know, you can't really play when your elbow was inflamed. And I was, you know, thinking I wasn't going to play in the tournament, I casually mentioned to master Shah, you know, I had this little condition because I had a meeting with him just like two days before the tournament. And so that's nothing here. And he immediately drew a little diagram calligraphy, actually on the in a book that we didn't even have paper with us. And he drew it in a book. And he said here, you just, you know, at that time, it wasn't he didn't even have the technique, Trey said, you just hold this book, this image that I just created on your on the arm, you know, five minutes tonight, five minutes in the morning, in two days, you'll have no problem. And he was right. And I played in the tournament, I actually won the tournament. So that was like, okay, this is just good luck. I mean, I mean, doesn't prove anything was very important to me. But you know, we intact,
Greg Voisen
like you said something earlier, right at the beginning of this. And I think for my listeners, you had this amazing trust in what Dr. Shaw said, well, in other words, we know that and MIT and all the places that have studied, you know, healing. Look, it's I'm trying to think of the book, it wasn't that long ago, but where people come back again and again for things that they basically don't take care of in their life. Right. They're not good patients. In your case, you had this amazing belief in him. And I think that's a, you know, you're talking about Norman Vincent Peale. I used to ride around and listen to cassette tapes that he did for years in the car, right. And he was so inspiring to me, I say that many times. He helped me he's out of depression 1000s of times.
William Gladstone
Right, I agree with you. And that is a strong component. And obviously, if you have trust, and you have belief, that's going to increase significantly the success you're gonna have, but let me give you another story. That kind of shows. You don't even need that. In the case of Dr. Master shots. My biological daughter, Tara was getting married. And we really made a big deal out of it. We rented an island off of Cata case in Spain, you know, hundreds of 1000s of dollars being spent. And two weeks before the wedding. She had fallen or hurt her ankle foot area. And she was in a boot. She couldn't walk. She went to the medical doctors, they said, Oh, we're so sorry. But there's no way you're going to be able to walk down the aisle. You know, this is going to take months to heal. It's not going to heal in two weeks. So well, I've got so much on the line I call up Dr. Nestor shy said, Is there anything you can do to help us at all I'll do a calligraphy I can't guarantee results, but I'll send it and we'll see what happens. So she gets the calligraphy three days before the wedding starts tracing and she is totally skeptical, but she's desperate. It's like she's got nothing else, you know, available, so she does it. Miraculously she's able to walk and this is not a normal aisle. This is like a quarter of a mile because we're on that island. It's a dirt path. And she loves to dance. Not only was she able to walk down the aisle she danced to four in the morning wedding went on quite a while. She did several weeks later have to have some more treatment to because there was a break or fracture and it didn't totally heal it but it heals it enough, even without her believing, necessarily in doctrine master shots and so that got my attention. Because well,
Greg Voisen
you know, obviously you are a believer in your shop. And I think my listeners understand by now that if they're looking for alternatives, you know, this is a good book to look to, it's a good introduction book, it's a good way to get exposed to this, it's a good way for you to explore alternatives to healing in your whole life right now. And that's what I was going to ask here and kind of wrapping up things. You know, you fill this book with stories about Dr. Master Shaw. So healings, what would you like the listeners to know about how they can access because, you know, he's about teaching other people how to use what he knows he
William Gladstone
has a wonderful group of people that are now you know, implementing his techniques. Okay, it's very hard at this time to have a one on one session with Dr. Master shot, he does blessings. He's evolved. He's now blessing water. So he has data water. And once a week, you can go online, and you know, have a session. It's a group session, of course, and He blesses water. And there's hundreds of reports of people just from this water blessing than drinking the water. And there's a technique, he's very much about gratitude, in everything that he does. He's always giving gratitude, to the doubt to the source to what others might call their god or whatever their, you know, sense of creation is. And Dr. Shah explains is, I can heal myself, you can heal yourself together, we can heal the world. And he really feels that everyone's obligation is to heal themselves, whenever possible, because when you heal yourself, you're raising the vibration of not only yourself, but of the planet. And we're all connected, interconnected. And this is what quantum physics is showing us. And it's by raising the health and the vibration of the planet, that we are really able to heal ourselves. And healing ourselves is the first step. And then you can learn to heal others, you can use these techniques. And if you want to follow this, and some people, you know, can create a career out of it or a sideline, He'll teach you how to do that. There's many, many classes and all this is available, where would
Greg Voisen
our listeners go to know what's in your book?
William Gladstone
Yeah, I think it's just WW. Dr. sean.com. I'm not good. With all the technical
Greg Voisen
info, here's what I'll do, I will put a link in the blog for my listeners, they can go to Dr. Shaw's website, I will also put a link to the waterside production so people can go
William Gladstone
one of the things that actually I'm going to recommend right here on the show is I'll connect you with Dr. Masters, I'm sure he would love to be on your show. And what he does, when he's on shows, in addition to answering your questions, they'll do a blessing for all of your listeners, he'll actually do a blessing that can have significant healing impact. And one of the things about Master shots is he doesn't limit it just to physical, mental, emotional, and even things related to career finances, marriage relationships, his techniques work with all areas of life. So you know, it's really a blessing to have,
Greg Voisen
I'm sure he said impacts on millions of lives, whether he knows it or not. The reality is, is that, you know, there's pain, I want to say it, these people that have come on the planet to do this kind of work as sages and healers. And there's many of them. Obviously, we have many on the show. But I wanted to expose his work one because of you. I really respect you and the kind of authors that you've actually brought to the forefront over the years, and the things that you've done. And I really think that this is great for our listeners. So for everybody out there listening, we're going to put a link to Dr. Shaw's website. And we're also going to put a link to waterslides website. And Bill if the listeners want to get the book. I know it's on Amazon. So we'll put a link to Amazon as well to pick up the book there. And if anybody has any questions about this, say probably go to the Dr. Shah website and type in email in and do a contact and we will get Dr. Shah on the show to actually speak with our listeners and do a blessing and a healing that bill is speaking about here. That would be wonderful. And Bill seriously. Thank you for taking this time to talk with our listeners. about the book is called Dr. and Master Shaw miracle soul healer by William Gladstone. There you go. Pick up a copy. Do that today. And if you have any other questions or contacts contest to contact us here at inside personal grow namaste to you, Bill.
William Gladstone
Thank you so much really enjoyed the interview look forward to talking with you again and getting some more of our wonderful authors on your show.
Greg Voisen
All right take care. Thank you.
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Inside Personal Growth with Greg Voisen · Podcast 988: The Automatic Writing Experience (AWE) with Michael SandlerThis podcast’s guest is podcast giant, visionary coach, spiritual mentor, life strategist and inspirational speaker Michael Sandler. He is also a best-selling author and one of his works which we’ll talk about is The Automatic Writing Experience (AWE): How to Turn Your Journaling into Channeling to Get Unstuck, Find Direction, and Live Your Greatest Life!.
Michael is also known as the cohost, along with his wife, of the popular show Inspire Nation – a transformational, self-help, spiritually focused podcast. True to his mission of elevating consciousness and helping the world to shine bright, he also cocreated the Automatic Writing Experience online course where in he has taught thousands of people worldwide already.
Aside from online course, The Automatic Writing Experience (AWE) has its book version released on February 2021. From then, it has gotten good reviews. As per Unity Magazine on its January/February 2022 issue, “Automatic writing can do more than merely help you tap into inner guidance. The practice can boost creativity, ignite intuition, and even trigger mystical experiences.” Well, it is true to its purpose as AWE is a revolutionary process to enter a meditative state, put pen to paper, and watch the words flow, you’ll have access to this incredible wisdom anytime you want.
If you want to know more about Michael and his works, you may click here to visit their website. You may also click here to visit their book website.
I hope you enjoy my engaging interview with Michael Sandler. Thanks and happy listening!
You may also refer to the transcripts below for the full transciption (not edited) of the interview.
Interview Transcipt -Not EditedEmailDownloadNew TabGreg Voisen
Welcome back to Inside Personal Growth. This is Greg Voisen, the host of the podcast and joining me from New Jersey is Michael Sandler. And we're going to be speaking about his book called (AWE) The Automatic Writing Experience. Good day to you, Michael, how you doing?
Michael Sandler
Good day you Greg and I gotta call that off. Because we're gonna be talking about that sense of awe today, aren't we?
Greg Voisen
We are and we just saw rube which is his rooster.
Michael Sandler
Yeah, absolutely. Which drops jaws and has you?
Greg Voisen
Definitely. Well, I'm gonna let my listeners know a tad bit about you. Michael Sandler, he has an MBA, which is a master's in business administration and Mi s, what is MIS?
Michael Sandler
It's a Master of Information Systems. So a computer degree as well as a business because one wouldn't be enough.
Greg Voisen
All right, yeah, to have a second one. He's the host of Inspire Nation show. And you can actually go to inspirenationshow.com To learn more about him. You can also go to automaticwriting.com. That's another website. It's a top rated self-help and spiritual YouTube show and podcast. He's a bestselling author, speaker, visionary coach and creator of Inspire nation University, and all online course, for over 25 years, he's transformed 1000s of lives and businesses through the open hearted Warrior Program. Michael is on a mission to help the world shine bright. And again, I said two websites probably automatic writing.com would be a great place for my listeners. Here's the book. And what's what we're going to be talking about today. Well, Michael, thanks for taking the time. I know you've been at this a long time. And there's some things in your life personally, that happened that kind of got you here to where you are today. And I'm not talking about educational experiences I'm talking about oh, they are educational. Indie ease and for everybody who knows a near death experiences, how that influenced you and change your life for the better.
Michael Sandler
I like that you say change your life for the better because it certainly did. Well, you could say that that's more of your master's or graduate or PA Doctoral Program, or degree on life is the nd ease. They shifted me from for the most part because your wiring is still your wiring, we can get into that. But they shifted me from a what I'm going to call a small mind understanding of the world. The more egoic or fear based or day to day mind, call it small and they shifted me to the big mind more of a big picture unity consciousness, we are all one what's the big picture? Why are we hear what's the meaning of this existence, what is what is behind the veil, what's on the other side. And, and from that place, it doesn't mean that you reside there all the time, as my wife will tell you, you don't. However, you interact with the world completely differently. You see things differently, your heart is expanded and more open. It's why we have the open hearted warrior program, it's now transitioned into what we call the school of mystics because what you are when you have one of these mystical experiences, you don't need a near death experience to have one is you're someone who can live on both sides of the veil at the same time, meaning, let's put it in common everyday vernacular. You can escape from the matrix or you're not locked to the lower level vibration of fears and worries, and anxiousness and even depression, that is a global phenomenon or challenge today, instead, you can see or be above it at a higher vibration still working here on Earth, but not attached to all of the drudgery.
Greg Voisen
Totally agree, many authors and lots of people have talked about that as the non-duality. You know, the me, you mentioned a second the ego, you know, and then the soul. And you we have to kind of coexist with that don't mean, Michael, and what does it mean to live? As you just talked about on both sides of the veil? You know, I kind of look at it as that non dual universe. And, but the egos ever present it, it's there to protect us in some respect, right? It's there for us. How do you help people navigate those two worlds?
Michael Sandler
Let's, let's kick it real old school, Greg, let's go with depending on your take, it can either be Pac Man or miss Pac Man. So on the other side, I'm calling it quote unquote, other side of the veil, because actually, we're this holographic image within the veil, everything is within us, we are within everything. But just for lack of confusion or clarity sake, we'll say the other side of the veil. Most of you exist, your Higher Self, your soul, your spirit, on the other side of the veil, cheering on this little version of you that's locked into this PacMan universe is locked into this world. In this world, you have amnesia, you forget who you are, you forget where you come from, you forget your attachment, so that you can play out this program or this game. And you can learn and grow from it and take that information back home to the larger version of yourself. The egoic mind, in a small sense, helps you stay safe here, look both ways before you cross the road. There are some rules that came from the tribe that are very meaningful look at the world from a fear based perspective. So you don't get eaten by a tiger. Whenever we came here to actually learn how to let that go, in a sense, because I like to think of this world. And this, this duality is a cosmic pulse of AC DC if you want or negative, positive, negative positive, the current that you have alternating current that runs your computer right here is this flux and current back and forth, and back and forth, and back and forth. And you came here to have amnesia, and forget and learn how to transcend that and bring that home and come here again and forget and learn how to transcend that and bring that home. And it's this pulse ever spiraling you upward in your existence of eternity, because you're an infinite divine being having a divine experience in human form. Now, your ego while you're here, until you wake up, and that's what I call escaping from the matrix is waking up to the greater existence, your ego. He's very scared. And my ego is still very big, it hasn't gone anywhere, just because I've had a taste of the other side. It is wiring. And the wiring is I want to stay small, I don't want to be seen. I don't want to reach for greatness. And it will give me a litany of reasons why I should never do or change anything and I should just hide under the couch. What I get to do with that, though, is make peace with it. Greg is to love it up is to listen to it as to take it in as a wounded little child and say it's okay. It's okay. It's okay. And then and in hand, stepping forwards and knee way. Right not about eradicating the ego eradicating fear, you might be able to do that. I haven't heard of many, many success, but it's about healing those wounds and then stepping forward with your ego
Greg Voisen
coexisting with it. You know, that's a an important element and I think that is where everybody is there is no way out of it. It is what it is. And the key is what you've mentioned as a nurturing it, supporting it, understanding it and then you growing with it. You know in the special message of your book. Urban Ervin is Laszlo I know I've actually I don't want to screw up his name because he Laszlo. Laszlo says that you have the ability to connect to the source. How do you help people hear or feel this source and know how to rely on what the source is telling them? Because you know it's discernment. We get you know, some people are Clara audience, some are Clara sent A summer, you know, clairvoyant, there's a lot of Claire's. The question is, is, when we hear that or intuitive, we have that hit? How do you help people really realize that and then channel that in, because you're really about automatic writing. Okay,
Michael Sandler
so a couple of key words in there. So channel is one of those words. And tune in is, is an important concept here as well, which is to say, we all get these hits, Greg, we all get these moments of clarity turn now. And all of a sudden, thank God, that child had run out that bus that came there, we turned to just the right moment, we had a moment of clarity, or we have an intuitive hit, to make a certain decision to go for something that makes no sense. And we actually go for it, the universe source God, the love, that is everything, whatever we want to call it is always speaking to us. However, if we don't have a practice, where we can learn to trust this voice, learn to trust this wisdom. And as you say, you're an important word, learn to discern, then we're kind of clueless as to, is this my mind? Is this my ego? Or is this coming from someplace greater? Now, right? Automatic writing is a very simple process, where you go into kind of this meditative state, you don't have to be able to meditate, you get your pen on the paper, and the pen starts flowing to gives you answers to some of the biggest questions of the universe, and about yourself, which is where it becomes a mind blower. And it's an energetic transmission when you start to feel better and feel better. And this cloak of darkness and heaviness starts to slough away from you, the more time that you spend in ah, what I call the automatic writing experience, the easier it is to discern, the easier it is to feel, the easier it is to have knowings of where the information is coming from, to the point where the writing is no longer about the writing, Greg, right, you can go out you can go down the street, you can have a conversation with Greg, which is woohoo, thank you for having me here. And you're able to get a real true sense of what's coming from that small mind and what's coming from the bigger mind because of the time you spent practicing in it.
Greg Voisen
Well, I I've written a couple of books, and they just helped finish another one. And I know what it's like gratulations. Now this doesn't it. This isn't just writing to write a book, let's make that real clear. This is writing to heal, no matter what the writing is. Much of this writing is, I'm going to say being channeled through you to be expressed on a piece of paper. And the important part is you hearing the message and learning from that message. And William Sears MD says that Aw, he belongs in the mental wellness toolbox of every reader who is inspired to take charge of their brain health. That was the quote, why is the automatic writing experience so powerful? What can it do for our brain health?
Michael Sandler
It's interesting that he mentions that because if you go back into the 1800s, I believe was 1846 might have been a little later than that. There was a beautiful book, aptly named automatic writing that talked about it as a tool, it was written by a psychologist, as a tool to connect with your subconscious, and learn about your deep inner wiring or programming that's commanding everything that you may not even be aware of. So it has been an incredibly powerful tool for that purpose for a very long time. Now, when it comes to brain health, our brains are like the laptop or the computer you have in front of you. Too many programs open too many apps, too many windows, too many things dragging you down at best and having a really warped bias at worst. What if we could get clarity of what we're really thinking of who we really are of what's really going on? Let's say that you are talking with your spouse and you snap, excuse me, get really upset. And your unsettledness is not commensurate to the energy that your spouse is giving you. You can go into automatic writing. And you can say let's use a technical term what the flip hack and you will actually get the answer well, because you were wounded it might even go so far to say is because you were wounded in fourth grade when teachers something shut you down and this happened and that happened. This is why you've created this Hartwall this barrier where if somebody touches that wall, they get an electric shock. This is why you start to flip out in this circumstance. And here's what we can do to help you to heal
Greg Voisen
Yeah, it's, you know, in my psychology training, he used to do these Gestalt therapies, right, where you would sit in two different chairs and be the same person, right, talking, like asking a question, then moving over and answering that question from that position. And I found most of those that I would do with people, or even someone doing it to me, were some of the most instrumental ways to actually express a challenge I was having in my life about something, you know, a relationship that I was having an issue with, with somebody. You know, you mentioned that the automatic writing has been used by sages and authors for years. And I would agree with you many of the people that have been on this show, use this technique to write their books, not just one book, you know, 20 books later, we have all heard the statement that the book came through me, okay. And people said to me what I wrote the second book, how did you do it? And I keep saying, you know, I would just make time to sit and be, and I'd allow it to come through me. And I would write for two or three hours, and then I would stop, and I do that, three or four times a week before long, I had all this stuff. And then I said, well, but he didn't read it back. And then why aren't you reading it back and correcting it? And I said, because probably the worst thing you could do would be making all those corrections from a mental standpoint about what you just wrote, I didn't sit and correct it. So what prompts you? What prompts do you send out to the universe to get started with the automatic writing experience?
Michael Sandler
I do. I do a couple prayers. I do a prayer that kind of puts me in this bubble of love and light. And then I do a second prayer where I call in assistance, we can call an Angels or guides loved ones on the other side of the veil. My daughter who passed away in utero is one of my two twins, the other ones playing upstairs. Her name is Mira COO, which stands for miracle and miracle comes through pretty much every day and says Daddy, I'll feel this question kind of wild. But but you can go then and call in assistance or As Napoleon Hill author of thinking Grow Rich calls it you can call in your boardroom. And then you ask questions, questions to your questions that are on your mind questions of what is most important for you? And then you begin to get answers in that sacred space.
Greg Voisen
Yeah, yeah, it's so important to set the space up. Right? I know a lot of people they like to put headphones on listen to music,
Michael Sandler
or I'll put on I have people listen to it's a great point you make theta brain entrainment music, right. And I interviewed Dr. Andrew Newberg for the book author of enlightenment in the brain. And he took a look at longtime or Yeah, longtime automatic writing practitioners, and saw changes neuros neurological changes that took place in the brain, at least during automatic writing. And they would enter this state of brainwave state where the frontal lobe, the part of the brain responsible for where am I going, what do I need to get done what we call our executive functions, and writing that part of the brain powers down the parietal lobe, the part of the brain up here responsible for last song of the Beatles by George Harrison. I mean, my I mean, my I mean, my, the egoic center of the brain, it powers down. We've got the IMMI offline, we've got the Writing Center offline. We've got you vibrating in this state of brainwave state, which is a more creative space more connected to something greater than ourselves. And it is in that space with those headphones on that the words really begin to flow as you're in this sacred place. There's one thing I want to touch on, Greg, you You did some amazing writing. And that writing has an energy to it a frequency to it. I know your books have it that goes beyond you, because it didn't come from you. It's a co creation grounded, but it didn't come from you. So what I challenge everyone to do in their automatic writing is make their day in automatic writing sandwich, which is if you write it in the morning, that's one of your pieces of bread, then you have your good vegan meat throughout the day, that essay, then read it again in the evening. You get in a unique, beautiful, vibratory state when you're writing. And you know this because when you're done, you're kind of cooked but it's been good. You get in this beautiful vibratory state, you're attuned to a higher frequency. That attunement carries you through the most of the day. And then you want that pick me up that attunement at the end of the day by rereading what you wrote, you don't have to edit it, but you can put yourself back in that sacred space, which then helps you to process to learn and to grow overnight, or a lot of people do the writing late at night, that's when they get their creative ideas or pop, pop pop. If so you write it in the evening. And then in that attuned you for your dream world, which your dream world really is your waking world for the other side of the veil. And then when you come to in the morning, reread it again, and be attuned, it's a vibratory change here for you vibrate at a higher frequency for the day ahead.
Greg Voisen
Yeah, you know, that brings me to this environment in which people write in an environment, they set up the meditation that they might do before, you know, you talked about meditation, the monkey mind, how do we Quiet? This monkey mind? You know, it's pretty active most of the time for most people. I know most good meditators will talk about that. They'll say, Okay, well, you just let it be and then let it you know, move out, right. It's not something that's not be against it. Let's just let it say what it's going to say and then let it move on. Right? What advice would you have for the listeners about quieting that monkey mind?
Michael Sandler
I'm gonna go the reverse direction. And it's actually you were saying it. Let's hear what the monkey mind has to say. I have an exercise I call an ego dump. I used to call it Better out than in, you grab a notebook, a journal, cheap composition book, if you want, preferably a nice recycled one. And if the ego mind is going nuts, set a timer. You don't have to do this all day. 510 minutes, whatever you'd like. And without censorship, allow the egoic monkey mind to barf all over you. Yep. All out. Do not censor it. Because Okay, between you and me, almost all of us, maybe not all of us. But almost all of us would go to jail if these writings were ever found, but still get them on paper Better out than in, then shred them, burn them, danced a margarita on them and be done with them. Because your subconscious or your egoic mind doesn't know the difference between the written word and the actual emotion or event. putting it down on paper is inflammatory. Unless you do something with it. It becomes a healing process. Once you shred that thing. It's may take time, but you'll find yourself getting lighter and lighter to where there's no longer the bite the croissants the energy behind it. It's not about squashing quelling that mind. It's about getting to that peaceful state where it no longer has to scream at you to be hurt.
Greg Voisen
Yeah, I love the way you say that, you know, and I go back to these memories. I did an audio cassette tape series, I noticed he was on your show. With David Allen. I've known David for ever and ever. GTD getting things done, and the master of GTD David Allen. And we used to in the audio cassette tape series, you know, we reference back to the mind dump. Right? That was the term that was coined by David. And I, I remember that so distinctly because he had a brain on a piece of paper. And then he would have the people come in. And in many of the workshops I did, I did the same thing. We'd say, hey, get everything out that you're thinking before this workshop kind of begins, this is the brain dump. This is the time What are you thinking about? And it was amazing how many people would give him like 15 minutes? And they'd go, no, no, I need more time. You know, there was that much stuff on the paper. They just write and write and write. Now you refer to your source as your angels. And you mentioned that we can all call the source whatever we like, that's true. But the key is to listen and the ritual that we establish, to do the automatic writing. What advice do you have to help people initiate this ritual? And I know some people are gonna say, Well, I'd rather write with a pen and paper and I go yeah, just write with a pen and paper, or you want to write on your MacBook and then write on your MacBook. So talk to us about that ritual.
Michael Sandler
So it's a matter of, and it's not just angels that I go to I go to angels and guides, loved ones and higher dimensional beings and I don't even care what you call this stuff. It's the energy that is everything that is appearing to be in one form or another just like you're appearing to be Greg right now I'm appearing to be Michael doesn't matter what we call this stuff. It's the energy that is everything. We can call it the field. wouldn't call it our inner wisdom. If you don't believe in any of that. You don't have to You've got an inner wisdom, it's saying you to listen to this right now, right? So we can write to this and call it in. In essence, it's almost as simple as writing and saying, angels guides, Lightworkers whomever. Good morning, I'd like to speak to you. You call them in, you invoke them. And then whether it is your pen, on paper, or your fingers on a keyboard, and for myself, I'm dyslexic. I started with pen on paper, but the word started going so much and so fast that I started flipping, lettering every other word, and it became a mess, to where now I sit back on my keyboard, eyes almost closed, and I clickety clackety along in fact, the good old days, when I had my wife's old college chair, I would kick my head back lean into Melton to the chair, and I'd almost have my eyes closed and be like Stevie Wonder I LOVE STEVIE. And I'd be just grooving to this information laying on the chair almost eyes closed, as the words begin to flow getting into that space, sacred space. Key Point, we call them in, that's something Napoleon Hill is dead as well, right. And then we get the heck out of the way. That's why we call it channeling. Allow the channel to open. And then don't think allow whatever comes out on the page to come out. You don't have to listen, you don't have to discern, you don't have to try to translate, just get it down over time with practice. And I have a whole program automatic writing.com or the book, there's a whole practice where as you get better at it, what I call this cosmic handshake. As you develop this connection that goes from kind of smoke signal to a what do we call it dial up to fiber optic to a fiber optic tunnel as this connection grows stronger. Now you can start to have two way conversations, not just listening to whatever is on the other side, not just listening. And always key point. When you go into prayer, and you call in whomever calling in at the highest level. Don't play Wii G board. Weegee board is like getting a butterfly net and scooping up anything above you or below you. And I've got prayers in here so that you don't do that. Because you don't just want Billy Bob, unless Billy Bob was a loved one who crossed over. You don't just want Billy Bob speaking to you. You want the highest level you can get
Greg Voisen
very important point. And you know, I was going to ask you again because you mentioned this. The gentleman that did the brain science study Dr. Andrew Newberg Yeah, right now, are you actually listening to music when you're doing this as well or listening to his audio recordings that he's created? Or just music?
Michael Sandler
I'm listening to theta brain entrainment music, I made a whole series of it myself. Okay, so people can get that from get that bonus? Yeah, okay. Free, okay. Okay, and just downloadable from the website, downloadable. If you go to automatic writing.com, you get the book, you put in your receipt there, your little transaction number, and you get that or you can take our automatic writing program, where I have live classes once a month, and there's a whole video based program, and you get a whole library of music there as well, because I want to make it as easy for you as possible. I initially, I can tap in any time now. But I still like each morning when I go into automatic writing. I'm still going to do it with theta brain entrainment music, it just makes it so much simpler and faster. Now, if people are listening if they're diving into automatic writing, and there's a whole process but if you're listening and diving into automatic writing, as long as it's legit go get some theta brain entrainment musical for YouTube as well. It exists out there. How do I know if it's legit? Well, if the music's just kind of warm and fuzzy, that's not theta brain and drain music. Do you find yourself getting into a different brainwave state? I low? Because there's a lot of it out there.
Greg Voisen
Okay. That's good to know. Now, you provide a list of what the automatic writing experience is not. Can you tell the listeners what it is not? And what actually automatic writing experience is.
Michael Sandler
So the simplest way to put that is not a first person. I me my journaling writing experience. It's not I Michael or I, Greg am having a rough time. My day is not going well. I need to know what to do about this. That can be a very cathartic healing experience. There's no doubt about it. It's worked as a journaling tool for helping people heal for 1000s and 1000s of years. That's coming from the eye. We're coming from you. We want to go Supra up above the thinking mind above the eye. So you end up getting into a second person process. What does that mean? It means it's okay, dear one, you are loved. You're okay. Breathe deep. Relax into everything. We've got you. We'll take care of you. Let's talk about what's going on in your life. Now you're in the automatic writing process, your automatic reading experience. And you can hear the difference in my day is not going well. Breathe deep. All is good. We are here. There's a very different energetic field and shifts to it. That's why it's an attunement. It's in this place that we want to write. It's in this place where our problems don't turn us into kind of frothy, big problem is because we're focused on it. But we're stead got something big picture mind could be you on the other side of the veil just cheering you on taking a higher level perspective and speaking to you from there.
Greg Voisen
The best that I can explain it because I've been there is the I don't want to say it. There's a sense of peace. It's like when you've gone into a deep meditation, and you've experienced one of the most magical meditations you've had with, you know, the purple at the top of your crown chakra coming, pulsating. And you walk out of that. And other day I was at a, I was with a friend and I went to a self-realization Fellowship, which is right here in Encinitas. Yes, I know. And I And I'm, I'm a devotee. So we do the meditation. And I gotta tell people, this because I think this is, this is pretty important. You know, walk out, your pace slows, your mind slows, you observe the people, the birds, whatever it is. So I get in my car. And I'm driving, but I know I'm driving at a slower speed, I get that I get that I've slowed down. And people are honking at me. Like, ah. And I said to my friend, I said, I just got out of a meditation and look at these people. And the sense that I get is peace, you know that this space that we're talking about this experience we're talking about, is this amazing space, of just peace and tranquility. And that's where you reach this. Whatever source you want to call it, your angels, your other people. That's where you're going to access it when I wrote the book.
Michael Sandler
That's where I was. And the cool thing to me too, is that it doesn't mean that you're not going to get powerful messages, right? They may peacefully say, Turn the car, you're going the wrong direction. But they're going to do so even if it's turn car now. Do so out
Greg Voisen
of love. Yes, yes. I think that's important out of love. That is so important, Michael. So, you know, you're, we've talked about the environment, people set up what's optimal, I think that's great. Wherever you do it the morning, the evening, you do it in a bedroom, you do it out on your porch, it just go to the place you need to go. Your book, certainly the de facto for anyone wanting to explore the world of automatic writing, let's face it, what advice would you like to leave our listeners with so that their experience with automatic writing is meaningful, and a memorable one? In other words, I think that I think you can start this process off. And if you start off on the wrong foot, and you don't have that good experience, right away, you may like postpone. And I don't think people listening to this podcast should postpone because they have one or two, not optimal experiences.
Michael Sandler
So first, I'm going to be biased, and I'm going to say get the book, get the program. Heck, you can go on to Amazon and probably find a used copy for dollar 50 or something, right? Learn the whole process. Don't skip steps in the beginning. So critically important. And then kind of like your meditation experience, let go of the outcome. There's no such thing really as a bad meditation. Let's the fire alarm goes off and you sit there like that. There's no such thing as a bad automatic writing experience, because it's an energetic attunement. So we go in there without attachment to the outcome without needing anything from it Part A Part B. There is a trust that develops over time. I have a relationship that develops between you and whatever it is that you're speaking to. When I first started automatic writing, I was in a class where we connected with the Akashic masters, the librarians of the universe. How cool is that. And it wasn't the automatic writing experience, but it was their process of getting into the state and communicating with a masters. And I was told, you're going to be a leader, you're going to be a teacher, you're going to be speak before 1000s and 1000s of people up on a mountain top up on high. And I had to read that back to the class. And I was aghast. And I thought it was my ego and my ego take it over, and maybe out to be this blah, blah, blah. And I was horrified. And I that was my first experience. I didn't do it again, Greg for at least another year and a half, maybe two years. Then I did it again. Same answers. On my third time, same answer. Finally, after life was flipped upside down and backwards to where I needed something to shift my existence. I went into automatic writing and said, Alright, whatever you're saying, I'm going to suspend disbelief. And just play with it. And over time, it became clear of what was coming for me what was not fast forward. A few years later, I had our inspire nation show. It's on YouTube, it's everywhere. I had been invited to the Nobel Peace Prize conference in Mexico. I was a leader. I was a teacher. And I broadcast from our home up on a mountain top on Colorado. To 1000s and 1000s of people from up on high.
Greg Voisen
Yeah. That's perfect. That's perfect way to kind of wrap this up for our listeners. Now. For the listeners, like you said, go out and get a copy of the book. It's not a new book, when did you first publish it?
Michael Sandler
I believe now, a year and a half, two years ago, it took four tries to get it right with the guides. I'm so proud of it. As recently as probably the last month that became the number one again, angels and spirit guides and channeling book on Amazon, it bounces around the top a bunch. I do a channeled teaching everyday to raise your vibration at daily woohoo, that's W O H O daily woohoo.com. That comes right out of my automatic writing. So you can get a taste of it, you can get that energetic sense, because I want to do an energetic like an espresso pick you up every day. But it's something everyone should have access to. When I went to that Nobel Peace Prize summit, I wanted to like go to all the leaders who are already doing great things and give them each a copy. Because Can you imagine in this world, if everybody was plugged in at the highest level and taking action from there, how much the world would change?
Greg Voisen
Oh, tremendously. So we'd see so many great transformational shifts worldwide. You know, so our listeners just so they know you can get to Michael's work by inspiration. It's inspire nation show, inspire nation show.com www automatic writing.com is another way to get there. It's on the back of the book as well. And you can get go to the YouTube channel, which he's got just type in Michael Sandler, and you'll get a lot of his messages. He's got a lots of video up there. Michael, it's been a pleasure having you on thank you for sharing something that is so important. And I'm going to just say this blankly for really everybody to know, it doesn't matter if you're writing a book, or you're just getting out some emotional energy. This is a great way to heal, and continue to heal. In other words, something you can do for a lifetime. It isn't just something you do once you just stay with this. You just keep doing it and doing it and doing it. And I think once you start it and you get the feel for it. You'll be pleasantly addicted to this. This isn't a bad addiction. It's a good one. So namaste to you. Thank you for the great energy that you brought across these airwaves. To all of my listeners, and thank you for doing the work that you're doing, Michael,
Michael Sandler
Thank you so much, Greg, for me having me here. How does it get any better than this? get any better than that the
Greg Voisen
Next time we do it, we'll make it better. How's that?
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Inside Personal Growth with Greg Voisen · Podcast 987: The Power Persona Project with Rocky BuckleyJoining me today is Rocky Buckley. He is an entrepreneur, a coach and a consultant. He is also the creator of Platinum Path Mastermind and of The Power Persona Project.
Rocky has consulted on over 3000 projects for clients that range from billion-dollar brands to experts, authors, Thought Leaders, Influencers and entrepreneurs in 9 countries and over 100 different markets. He helps solopreneurs experts thought leaders and influences reinvent, reinvent their expertise and shift into high priced life, friends lifestyle friendly business model.
In The Power Persona Project, Rocky gets to work with business owners from all around the world and have conversations with superstars, legendary authors and speakers, and marketing gurus. Its vision is to break through to the next level and become the leaders and impact makers of the future. Moreover, it gives access to first-class tools, strategies, and techniques to master both the “Inner Game” and “Outer Game” of success, all within the warm, friendly environment of a true community of passionate members on the same journey together.
If you want to know more about Rocky, you may click here to visit his website.
I hope you enjoy my engaging interview with Rocky Buckley. Thank you!
You may also refer to the transcripts below for the full transciption (not edited) of the interview.
Interview Transcipt -Not EditedEmailDownloadNew TabGreg Voisen
Welcome back to Inside Personal Growth. This is Greg Voisen, the host of Inside Personal Growth and Rocky, everybody knows me but they don't know you. But Rocky Buckley is joining us from Charlottesville or Charlotte, Charlottesville, Charlottesville, Virginia. And he came way of me to buy one of his people that reaches out. And I always am intrigued by individuals who are doing branding for many of you who know, we've had Dorie Clark on here and all kinds of people like that, that talk about personal brands. We just had Connie Steele on who actually is somebody in your neck of the woods. She's in Maryland, about personal branding, and it's always interested me is like, Hey, how are we helping people in personal brands, especially in today's Internet age, right? Because it's a big deal. But I'm gonna tell the listeners a little bit about you. If you want to know more about Rocky, just go to Rocky Buckley r-o-c-k-y-b-u-c-k-l-e-y.com. There, you can learn more about him. But he is an entrepreneur, a coach, consultant, and the creator of platinum path mastermind, where he helps solopreneurs experts thought leaders and influences reinvent, reinvent their expertise and shift into high priced life, friends lifestyle friendly business model. And I like that because you know, for a lot of us, we are solopreneurs that's what we're doing out here. And it is a lifestyle business, podcasting is kind of a lifestyle business. He's also the creator of power persona framework, a unique Inside Out strategy for personal branding and positioning as a public figure. Over the last 23 years, Rocky has helped his clients bring over $100 million in training programs, curriculum, and information products to the market. He's consulted on over 3000 projects for clients ranging from billion dollar brands like Parsons, Wiley McMillan, to expert authors and entrepreneurs in nine countries, and over 100 different markets. He's worked behind the scenes of numerous seven and eight figure product launches, and most recently partnered with Tony Robbins, and Dean grazioso. On their time to thrive challenge. Well, you have a great background for this. And you're somebody that anybody who's out there listening today who's either started a business or is running a business on the side, or whatever it might be, we'd need to hear from you about what it is you can do to help them right. And that's what we like to do on inside personal growth. That's it people that are seeking and want to help. So Rocky, speak with us a little about how you became this personal brand expert you told me on our pre interview? And why in the digital age that we're living in and so important to have this unique personal brand. You know,
Rocky Buckley
I'm sure well, thanks for having me on, Greg. Well, I guess the first thing I would say is I don't necessarily position myself as an expert. In this space, I think I'm kind of somewhere between an expert and a fellow traveler on that journey, because it's only really been in the last few years that I've become more of a public figure. I think for me, it really started way back when I was a kid, I was a high potential kid, I was a gifted high IQ kid who always had this mantle of like potential put on me, because I was, you know, a smart kid and so on. But I was always told from the time I was young, you know, you can become anything that you want to become and, you know, become somebody make a real difference in the world. And so I kind of always had that sense of something like that, in my future ever since I was a kid. And all the way growing up, you know, I was interested in things like sports and acting, and film. And in all of those interests and passions that I had, I always looked at it through the lens of, you know, fame and having a platform and being able to be a role model to impact other people's lives. You know, so whether I wanted to be a professional baseball player or make movies, I always looked at it through the lens of I can use this to make a difference in people's lives. And then you know, over the years as it took me into the business world, I found myself working with a lot of authors and experts and entrepreneurs, on their books and their intellectual property on their websites. And in the process of working with these people, I always found that I would come to a point where I was trying to extract out of them, you know, who is this really for? Why is this important? What are you trying, really trying to communicate in this logo or in this website, what are you trying to do and so on. So I started to kind of enter this space of, you know, positioning and communication and messaging. And at the same time, I was also very involved in ministry leadership. So I was, you know, standing on stages, I was speaking a lot, I was trying to impact people, and the thought of leadership and communication and how you frame, you know, topics and so on, and how you move people, all of these things were always rolling around in my head. But it wasn't really until a few years ago, where, you know, I had been in business for about 20 years. But I wasn't more of a behind the scenes guy, I wasn't a public figure. And so when it came time where I made that decision, I'm going to actually step out from behind the shadows and become, you know, a public person. What do I do now with myself? Like, how do all these things that I've worked with other people on all these years? How do I actually now use that stuff? to position myself? How do I articulate the best version of me for public consumption. And so that's sort of the origin of that journey. And so I had to kind of go through and extract stuff out of my own head and articulate it and put it into a process that you refer to earlier as my power persona framework. So I think that, you know, personal branding, as you mentioned, we're living in a digital age or a social age. And, you know, if you're in business where you're trying to make an impact, there's really no choice you have to be online, you have to be a public persona. And so the question isn't whether to do it, it's just how do you do it? And how do you do it? Well, so your personal brand is something that is going to carry with you, through the years, you know, we're, we're in a time where there's rapid change, we're in a very rapidly changing world, we're most likely going to have to reinvent ourselves many times over the course of our career. But the one constant thing is us is the person inside of that. And so I think being able to get in touch with that being strategic about it. And, you know, being an expert in how to how to reinvent yourself, how do you reframe your messaging, the target audience that you're looking at, and so on. And all of that, like, that makes that best version of you, that breaks through the noise and stands out in a crowd? So I think that skill is just becoming more and more important, as we go into the future.
Greg Voisen
Well, it's, it's so apparent, Rocky, that, you know, it's not a one size fits all, you know, when you start to work with people like Tony Robbins, and I go back to the day, you know, the Zig Ziglar is of the world and the people that would really inspire and motivate salespeople, right? Or the religious leaders that I would listen to, like Dr. Schuler, who's now passed, or those kinds of people and you would say, you know, charisma, you know, you would look at so many of them, and especially the spiritual leaders with the kind of charisma Norman Vincent Peale. Used to be a guy with listen to it, I go back to the day and I had cassette tapes, and I would pull it up, put them in the car. And for hours, I would listen to Norman Vincent Peale. And, you know, some people, you say, Well, are they born with it? You know, it's like, oh, you know, did you? Did these guys get born with it? So that, you know, they just turn into these natural, charismatic, you know, personalities that do it. But speak with us about this, what you refer to his conscious identity design? I'm not certain that people like Zig Ziglar and Norman Vincent Peale. Even would know what conscious identity design would be. I think they just went out there and just did it? And how would one approach creating a conscious design for them?
Rocky Buckley
Yeah, I think actually, if you go back to that literature, in that time, probably, what I'm talking about with conscious identity design would invoke something like Maxwell Maltz, in Psycho Cybernetics. And it's something like that, where there's this self-image that you're looking to actually design and build from the inside out. So when I talk about conscious identity design, it's really in the context of being a public persona. So that it's not just in general terms, although you can do that. But identity itself, if you really look into who we are, and who we believe that we are, inside of that is a whole web of different roles, that we have context, and so on. So when I talk about conscious identity design, it's in the context of that role as a public figure, entrepreneur, leader, sort of person. And so, you know, a lot of us when we get into this space of becoming a public figure, we jump right into the tactical aspects of it, we might start putting out a lot of content, putting out messaging, marketing products, and so on. But invariably, unless you are a natural, you hit it immediately. A lot of people find that they struggle that they struggle to resonate with an audience. And so there's a lot to unpack inside of that. Right. So when I talk about conscious identity design, it's not like I'm going to create a false in authentic person. It's really how do I get a clear vision on who I want to become Oh, I'm hearing some music is there? Okay? So when I talked about conscious identity design, it's about who do I want to become? What's that vision for myself as a public figure? And how do I end up achieving that? Right? So a lot of people look at, you know, this from the standpoint of discovering themselves or finding themselves. And I find that that can be a lot of navel gazing, it can be a black hole that can eventually lead to nowhere, I look at it really from the standpoint of creating that version of yourself, right? Instead of trying to determine in mind, Oh, who am I? What was I created to be? What's my purpose? And all of this stuff? I look at it from the standpoint of, what do I want? And how do I create that? And so, you know, there's a whole process of going through that, looking at your life vision, what's your vision for, ultimately, a big picture in life? Who do you want to become in 510 20 years? How does that inform your business vision? And then inside of that, what is that role that you play as a public figure inside of that, then when you actually go to execute it, you know, it's a combination of aspects like Maxwell, multiple talk about in psycho cybernetics, it's visualization, it's imagining that version of yourself, right conditioning your mind to believe that's who you are, and that's who you're becoming. But it's also actions, you know, it's different activities that you can put yourself in proximity to that start to shift your identity. So for example, it might be let's say, you've had a struggle over the years, you know, connecting with the idea of becoming wealthy. Well, if you want to change your identity, as somebody who is a wealthy person who attracts wealth, and so on, consciously putting yourself in situations where maybe you're looking at big, beautiful homes, or you're going to see, you know, expensive supercars and things like that you're putting yourself in proximity of these things that eventually in the future you would be experiencing. So I think it's a combination of a number of different factors together, but ultimately, at the end of the day, it's about bringing forth that best version of yourself, for the public. Right? So that's in designing them becoming very conscious of that process, rather than just allowing it to happen.
Greg Voisen
Well, it does. And to add to that, and there's a question here is, you know, I think, as a species, as individuals, we evolve, we have life experiences, life experiences, than the sum total of those experiences help us to actually identify with who we are, because some of them are really hard experiences. Some of them are great experiences. But the reality is, you know, there's been a state of Maine, you're, you're kind of the sum total of the experiences that you've had in your life. But to have those experiences, you also need to have a huge bit of curiosity, a curiosity to want to go out and seek and find new things and do new things and explore and understand what they are. And this helps to develop this personal persona. This is what makes you who you are, you know, when you're born, you can say, well, I had an identity. But the reality is you were just a baby, and you evolved into who you are because of the sum total of your experiences. Now, that doesn't, like I said a minute ago, that also comes from the experiences that you had either positive or negative when you put yourself out there, when you were doing a public presentation. I remember a guy that was on here. And he and he was going to do a magic app in his sixth grade. And they laughed at him because he went blank with his little talk and his magic or whatever. Many people who are listening right now can relate to that, like, hey, I had this horrible experience when I went to go do public speaking in fifth grade, right? And that sticks with him. Until at some point, the pain is so great. They just take a huge risk, and they go for it and they become a wonderful speaker. Right? So speak with us about the levels of charisma, some of us have more than others. How would you help someone naturally discover the DNA charisma that they use that enhance their message to prospective clients and customers? And again, when I say this, to find it, when they find it, they also find their niche, their market? Right?
Rocky Buckley
I think really do that. Yeah. I'm sorry. Yeah, I think charisma is really directly related to how you how tapped into your sense of purpose. You are, because we've all experienced I look at charisma as a state. Really, I think that all of us have experienced charismatic states very much the way that we've experienced peak states in our lives, right? There's been times where we've been sitting around a table with friends and telling a story. And you know, everybody's locked in and everybody's riveted to that story. And we've been magnetic. We've experienced those moments of resonating with people very deeply, so it can happen. And the normal way that it happens is when we're talking about something we're enthusiastic about. We're truly passionate, we're truly caring. And so there's this what Olivia Fox kabbani talks about in her book, The Charisma Myth is this combination of power, presence and warmth. And that essentially captures what charisma really is. So I believe that when you're really tapped into a sense of purpose, you have a real clear idea of who is it that I'm really here to serve in the world? What is that problem that I'm here to solve? And you're really tapped into the pains of that problem, right? What are the what are the people that I want to serve, feeling on a daily basis when they're struggling? When they're hurting, you know, they want some kind of a solution, they're dreaming of some better future, right? Whatever that might be. Tapping into those emotional elements of it, is what allows us to really experience this charismatic state, it comes forth in us, we begin speaking and communicating with a lot more passion, energy, and so on. And that becomes contagious to other people. So I believe that, like Marilyn Monroe talked about this, she would just flip into a state at will and say, I'm going to suddenly change from Norma Jean to Marilyn Monroe, watch me do it. And she would go into some kind of a state and transform herself, magically into Marilyn Monroe. And I think that for us, we may not do it at that level. But the same idea is there when we can connect into those emotional drivers related to our purpose, it changes our state. And when we can notice our state, we can notice what do I how do I sound? What's the tone of my voice? What's the pace? Do I speak faster? Do my hands start to move like mine do right? am I breathing faster? What is what happens in my posture, when we can start to notice how our state changes, when we're charismatic, we can replicate that state at will. So that's what I'd like to talk about with charisma is essentially, it's capturing that state as a recipe. And at will being able to replicate it when we want to. So when we're going on camera or on stage, we can be our most charismatic, but it all ties back to that sense of purpose. That's our highest level, that's our highest driver. And that's where all of our emotion and passion pours through. And other people feel that and it's an X factor. But people get that. And so I love to help people kind of tap into that and, and use it as much as they can.
Greg Voisen
And I can see how you do that. And one thing I would say though, it's interesting, Rocky, that they always said, if you wanted to write a good book, write the book where you were in a movie theater with a friend, and you would whisper messages in their ear. In other words, somebody who writes good copy or writes good book, or is able to market to somebody or they read. It isn't always about charisma, always. It's about how you relay the message where the person feels warm, comforted, and understands what you're attempting to advise them of, or tell them or whatever. And I and I remember that from somebody saying when you write a book, make sure you're writing it as if somebody was sitting in the theater with you, and you were whispering messages in their ear, right?
Rocky Buckley
Well, that's where charisma, it's, you know, it's just one piece of the puzzle, right? Resume is really the animating factor. But there's a lot of other factors that come into this strategy. And one of those is, in fact, market research. And it's knowing who that ideal person is in depth, and feeling everything that they feel and knowing their dreams and aspirations and the things that keep them up at night and all of that. So when you can combine the strategic with the emotional, I think that's really where that that most powerful version of you can really come out.
Greg Voisen
I agree. And with that being said, there are people that are selling things or marketing things that they almost seem similar, you know, it's like, red ocean blue ocean. We'll talk about that here. Now. You know, everyone said, well, the blue ocean is where the sharks don't swim. But the red ocean is where there's a lot of bloodbath. And that's where you see it. So when you look at personal to do lists, programs, there's Todoist. And there's Asana, and there's click up. And there's this one, and there's that one, and there's lots it's a very blurred space. Right. It's very blurred. Very challenging, challenging to determine what would be the best but most of my listeners know about the book that chan Kim wrote and Rene wrote, regarding the blue ocean, speak with us about creating a blue ocean strategy, and if you would, this is Ken Blanchard term 100% of raving fans. So how would you help somebody do that?
Rocky Buckley
Yeah, I think it does come down to those unique factors that only you can bring to the table. And I think this is where a lot of people fall short, because they don't do the deep inner work to understand what those factors are. So like if we're in a space, and we're seeing, you know, for example, in the marketing space, and there's a lot of online gurus, the markets flooded with copycats, because everybody starts to think this is how I have to sound like this is what's selling today. So I have to act like this sort of brash, personality, or whatever it might be the bro market, or whatever it might be. But I think, you know, for most of us, we have to figure out our own unique voice be our most authentic, because that's where we're going to, we're going to obviously make the deepest impact on people, and being strategic and being able to step back and really look into what those elements are, that make us unique. And so there's a whole palette of those and some of those come from our life story, what are those aspects in our in our history, that are kind of different than anybody else? So for example, in my space right now, you know, I went to film school I was I went to New York University film school, I think I don't I'm not sure that there's anybody else in my space, who went to film school or was in ministry leadership, or was a commodity trader, like things. So there's, there's aspects in my past, that I can bring forward into the way that I talk about my subject that's different than anybody else. There's likes and dislikes that I have. It might be sports teams, it might be, you know, music, films, anything that we can pull into this orbit of who we're presenting ourselves to be, give us a different flavor. And so it really requires a stepping back and looking into ourselves and saying, you know, what, are those elements? What are these talents that maybe I have, that I don't use in my business at all? Maybe I am very musical, or maybe I do impressions, like I do a lot of voices. But I never bring that into my business? Well, what if I actually said, hey, let me have some fun, and start bringing that into my business. And I'll start imitating people, right, as part of my video content, and it'll be funny, and it'll be engaging for people, right. So there's so many untapped resources that we have within us that we could bring into what we talk about that would greatly differentiate us from anybody else. Now, strategically big picture. I like to think about, you know, Al Ries and Jack trout in their book positioning, talking about finding that what they call a crunchy they use a French word, but it means a whole a cavity, in the market where no one else is, where you can be the first and you can be the only. And so when I talk about strategy, I always talk about it from the standpoint of being a category creator, can you just create your own space for yourself, design it that way. And then you can proceed when you execute your business vision, moving more into that blue ocean, you know, first and only sort of positioning. So to me, it's like you got to start with that vision. And then you've got to design how to get there. But I think getting a clear vision and a big picture of where you want to go and who you want to be right? And do you want to be funny? Do you want to be warm? Do you want people to love you? Do you want to be polarizing, you have to figure a lot of that stuff out. And that's what our framework really helps people to do?
Greg Voisen
Well, in the process of that, I mean, I've been doing personal growth interviews, personal growth. For now, we're 16 years down the air. And you know, when you look at the numbers of people that speak about identity, kind of like, who is the alter ego? What is my persona that you were talking about? How was that defined? How did I defined it? How does the world see it? How do I see it? All those are important questions. But in the end, what's really probably most important is what's going to make you as an individual. How would I want to say this happy content, and having achieved what you would like to achieve in the world? So you call it purpose? That's right. I agree. But then you have those goals that you set around that purpose. So for that, you've got something that you talk about, which is called you're going platinum as a high priced expert, because everybody here you said, Well, just when I first started off, I called you an expert. And he said, Well, no, don't refer to me as an expert. But that I think it's do you see yourself as a thought leader? In a particular area, that's another term that could be used versus an expert? What must happen in the mindset of one of the clients that you're that they need to embrace? And what are the characteristics of becoming a platinum? Let's call them thought leaders in their field, and what needs to shift mentally and emotionally rocky for somebody to actually claim that? It's one thing to say, Well, I'm a thought leader, it's another thing to actually claim that You're a thought leader, and you have a knowing that you're a thought leader, not just a belief.
Rocky Buckley
Yeah, yeah. And it's not only claiming it, but then it's actually putting a price tag on it, charging for it. And that's really where the, you know, where the mindset issues come in. And whenever you talk to people about sort of raising your price, raising your profile, positioning yourself, as like a top expert in your space, all this stuff comes up. And I find that the three main areas that this occurs, and first of all, is just a belief level, people may have a belief, a false belief that you know, only the affluent can afford to pay high prices, right. So unless I'm really willing to just go for like the rich and target the rich, I can't charge high prices. And maybe they have baggage around doing that, right. And I think so that level, the sense of okay, only the affluent can afford high prices, that belief has to be debunked. It's sort of like, well look around, people are paying high prices for all sorts of solutions all day long. And they're not necessarily affluent. It's like, it's a belief that you have to cultivate to realize that when a person reaches a point in their life, in their business, in their relationship in their health, where there's a big enough problem, there's a big enough why there's a sense of urgency, and they've tried a lot of things. And, you know, and they're really kind of at the end of all of these half measures, they're ready to go all in, they've decided to burn the bridge and say, I have to fix this, people will are resourceful, and people will find the money to pay that. And of course, you know, you want to provide a true solution that actually solve the problem that helps people, but getting over that hurdle and saying, you know, I can charge high prices and kind of the average person in this situation can afford it or configure out the resources to be able to get the money to pay for it. I think that's a hurdle that a lot of people have to get over. The second one, of course, is a self-doubt issue, no one will pay me, I see other people getting paid, but not me, right, I'm not worthy. And that's where you get into a lot of the self-issues. And that's a lot of debugging as well. But why are you not worth it, you've gotten all of these results with certain kinds of people, and so on, and you are worth it. Now, what I will say is a lot of people in the high ticket expert space, simply talking about raising your price, just from a mindset standpoint, just kind of deciding like, you're worth it. So start charging. And I think that's where a lot of people find there's a there's a disconnect, because at some point, you realize, well, I'm really not worth it, I'm this kind of stuff that I'm providing, isn't really worth, you know, a $10,000 fee. So it may require strategic shifts. So for example, let's say you're a personal trainer, and you typically work with people and you're helping them you know, drop 10 pounds, get in that bikini for the summer, whatever it might be. But you're not solving like a high level problem. Being able to shift the way that you position your solution, it goes up exponentially when there's urgency around it. So for example, it might be a person that needs to lose 100 pounds, instead of losing 10, there's 100 pounds, and there's massive health implications involved. Or it could be you're trying to train an actor get an actor ready in six weeks for a film, and they've got to take their shirt off in the movie, suddenly, your skill to help people transform their body has become a lot more valuable because there's urgency around it, right? So sometimes you have to simply reposition yourself figure out how can I become more valuable? Do I need to serve people differently? Do I solve a different problem a higher level problem, right? So there's a lot of that involved as well. And then the final mindset issue that I see a lot is, am I going to be judged? Right? You start to feel if I start saying like I'm this top expert, and I'm charging all this money? What are people going to think of me? What are the people that I love? Are they going to start to see me differently, like now I'm trying to rip people off and so on. And I think that that has to be reframed, it has to be looked at as like, Okay, well, some people may actually feel that way incorrectly. But for the most part, when I charge higher prices, I'm actually getting people better results. Because they have more skin in the game, instead of paying $1,000 And they're paying 10,000 Now they're really involved, they're gonna treat me with much more respect and authority, and they're gonna actually do what I tell them to do, right? So you actually get better results at higher price points than you do at lower price points, in many cases, providing again, that what you're doing is ethically viable and valuable for people. So I think those are really the three big mindset shifts around going platinum.
Greg Voisen
And they are and you know, the interesting thing is in since all dawn of time, there's been a variance in prices of products and quality and product doesn't matter if it's Gucci versus Tesla versus whatever it might be and I'm willing to pay, because the company in a lot of cases has done a really good job of branding their products. Now there are people carrying Gucci purchase purses, that probably shouldn't be, right. In other words, they bought it because of the image associated with it. And I think when you're doing consulting, and you're putting a price on something you said high priced, I think is that a fair price where the value that the person receives is equal or greater than the remuneration, the money that they're willing to give up for that. I know, attorneys that charge 1800 an hour. And I know attorneys to charge $300 an hour. And so you know, you're always going to have this spectrum. And the question is really comes down. And when you buy this, do you believe that you're getting fair value, right, fair value. And that's what it really kind of boils down to? And you speak about this, you have this personal persona project. And you're working with a dean Grazi OC, and Tony Robbins, could you talk with the listeners about what you're doing and your personal persona project? And what's actually happening, I watched an interview with you and Dean and it was really fascinating.
Rocky Buckley
Yeah, well, the power persona project community is really a membership. That is for experts, thought leaders, influencers, entrepreneurs, and anyone who is looking to build a personal brand. So inside power persona, this is where I teach the power persona framework that I had alluded to earlier. And we bring people together in an environment where, you know, they're on the journey together, they're receiving great training content, they're looking at guest expert interviews, they're in a community together, having great conversations, there's a marketplace, podcast, exchange, all sorts of things inside of that community. Because I really believe that in a, in a rapidly changing world, being in a real time environment with other peers who are on that same journey, and are all learning from each other in a collegial setting. You know, there's nothing better for personal growth than doing it with other people. So the power persona project is a community that I've created to kind of facilitate people's growth and reinvent their businesses, their personal brands, and so on, again, using the framework that I mentioned. Now, in terms of my work with, you know, Tony Robbins, and Dean Graziosi, that's something that came out of the blue, I was actually approached to partner with them on their most recent time to thrive challenge, which was really all about the knowledge industry, which was, you know, Tony and Dean had a goal to bring a whole new generation of people into the knowledge industry, the expert space, being able to teach what they know, be enthusiast, you know, share their passion, interview others, et cetera. It's a booming industry with a with a very bright future. And I think Tony and Dean essentially see the same things that I see, there's a tremendous opportunity that it's only going to get better going into the future. But there's also a lot of dangers in terms of, you know, making it work, you've got to stand out in a crowded marketplace, the more people come online, the more businesses come online, the more people are entering all of these different spaces, it becomes more important than ever to be able to stand out. And, you know, position yourself in that place as somebody that other people will follow and resonate with. So it was a great experience, I had the privilege of being able to interview Dean and chat with him. As they were launching this, I believe the numbers will show this was the biggest launch in internet marketing history. So they did fantastic with it. And they brought all these new experts into the market. And some of those people are going to be, you know, the stars of the future that you'll see in the next couple of years. So it's very exciting.
Greg Voisen
There will always be a ratio of individuals that make it and individuals that are not going to make it or at least it depends on what you define making it is right. The reality of just being able to put one step in front of the other and actually try it and take the risk and not have the fear is really a key element of it, no matter where it takes you. It's the experience again, of what actually happened along the way on what you learned to improve as an individual your own personal growth, your own mastery of something, your own ability to do that. In your case. That's what you're helping people do. Even with your program. You're saying hey, look, I'm here, I'm here to help you you're going to make an investment in me you're going to make an investment in what we're doing. And you know, going in that not everybody here is going to be a huge success. But your it's what you define as success. What is your definition of that? What is it going for? What is your why and your K? As you know, you have what is the multiplier model shift that one could make you that could make to expand their brand. And to leave a legacy? What is this multiplier model shift? And how would somebody listening today who's out on the internet, like myself, you know, engaging the multiplier model effect in how could that help us exponentially change the number of people that see us hear us and engage with us?
Rocky Buckley
Sure what I talked about the multiplier effect, it's really mainly aimed at entrepreneurs who are focused in on a one to one model, so they're working with one client at a time. So they may be a coach or a consultant or somebody of that nature. And they're basically serving each client on a time for money basis, maybe they're charging by the hour or by the package, and so on. The multiplier is really when you can move from a one to one business model to a one to many business model. That's what allows you to have impact through time and space, right? All around the world at the same time, and all of that. Now, the question is, how do you actually do that? So the central piece of that is first being able to extract the knowledge out of your head, understanding what you are an expert in? How do you work? What are all those processes that you use and being able to successfully pull it out of yourself and understand how you work put it into a linear format that other people can follow, turn it into a system that you can brand and framework that other people can, can absorb easily, right. So you have to be able to teach it well, as well. So that's the first step is really extracting your own IP extracting your value and putting it into a format that other people can consume and find valuable. So that may be something like an online course, it could be a book, it could certainly be a podcast as well. But when you're essentially distilling what you know, and putting it into a new format that other people can consume rapidly. And the second is also in your delivery model, right. So you can get leverage, when you're, let's say, serving multiple people at the same time. That's where you may move from a one to one to like a group coaching program, or a workshop or a retreat, where you're all in the same environment, but your time is being leveraged because you're serving 1250 100 people all at the same time. So the two steps are really extracting your IP, putting it into a format that other people can consume. And then moving into these models where you're serving many people at the same time. And that can greatly multiply your business because you know, in a one to one sort of model, you just can't serve that many people, right, you can only serve one client at a time. And you're often finding yourself repeating the same things over and over, you're teaching the same things again and again to people. And when you can put that material into like a digital format that they can consume. And essentially liberate yourself from having to do those mundane tasks over and over again, and really focus mainly on giving people feedback advice, based on the videos that they watched, essentially, that you created one time, and now that can be accessed anytime around the world. Right? So that's what I'm talking about with multiplier specific to an expert, extract your knowledge and then move into a different one to many model.
Greg Voisen
So you know, it's interesting, that multiplier effect, you know, you did speak about what in that. But at the same time, what's really, really imperative is kind of like the design of how that content is developed, learning content is developed. And I know you're an expert at that. And I want to let my listeners know that this is one of Rocky's real expertise is kind of the design of how you do it. When you design learning, because that's what people are learning to do. You need somebody like Rocky because you can't just slap it together and put it in, you know, think ethic or something like that, that somebody's going to come to think of it and want to consume your product because it just doesn't happen that way. It's got to have a unique model and design to it. And it has to be engaging, and it has to keep people's attention. And you've got a lot of things to think about when you're doing that. Now. What advice would you want the listeners to know about building their personal brand and how do you help people through this process and you know, you've got this, you know, they can go to Rocky buckley.com which we just said which is one and you have some new stuff coming out. You were telling me about before we started this? Would you like to let the listeners know a little bit about that and where you're headed? And what you're going to do and how they can be obviously, can we reach you through here? But you're gonna have a new website coming up? Yeah,
Rocky Buckley
yeah, sure. I mean, when you're talking about, you know, the path to kind of develop this strategy in his public persona strategy, the thing I think that I do differently than anyone else's, I look at it kind of from an inside out inner game, personal development sort of lens, where I really start with the foundation with one's life vision, that's the very first piece is going through understanding what it is that you want in life, not only now, but in the next five years, 10 years, 20 years into the future, and who do you want to become. And it's only when you can get really clear on the life vision that you can then get clear on the business vision, because your business vision will shift, depending on how you see your life and how you see who you want to become. And so aligning those things and making them congruent with each other, is really the first step. And then the question is, Who are you inside of that business vision? And what is that role that you're going to play? What is that public persona that you need to, you know, to be to be able to execute this vision and be successful that and then it becomes taking all these assets and resources that you have inside of yourself? Looking at those drawing those out? We talked about that a little bit earlier with things like your life story, or your talents, or your gifts, your likes and dislikes, how do you package all that together, and then articulate that into a brand and a strategy that sets you apart as first and only in your market, right, so there's all that strategic piece, and then from there, that's when you can go wild executing, we're putting out a lot of content and so on. But I find a lot of people miss the whole foundational piece. And they're putting out content, they're putting themselves out there. And they're just drawing crickets, like nothing's happening. And it's really because there's this whole tip of the iceberg phenomena where most of the iceberg under the water has never been addressed. And it's all those factors that make the tip of the iceberg work. That's why your marketing starts to work. Because you know yourself really well, you know, your market really well your customer, and you can talk in their language, right and bring the best version of yourself into that, you have to figure all of that stuff out strategically, before you start putting out a ton of content, or you can be experimenting with it, you know, at the same time. So if I were to give advice to people, that is really the place to start, in terms of working with me, you know, people can find me at Rocky buckley.com. I believe that by the time that this episode is going to air, we're a little bit before what's coming in the fall. And that's going to be the launch of my paid power persona projects community that's going to be hosted over at mighty networks. So people I can find the power persona project.com that will take them to my currently free Facebook group. And then eventually, in the fall again, this is going to turn into my paid community. And people can access that again at Rocky buckley.com.
Greg Voisen
Well, I can see you've worked behind the scenes with so many people. And now what you're doing is you're leveraging yourself. So Good on you for that. The other thing is, is that, you know, for any individual out there listening today, who has an idea, who wants to clearly define their vision, wants to work with somebody who could help you turn that vision into a product or a service or a book or a course, or whatever it might be. Rocky would be your guy, I'm gonna give you a personal endorsement, because I really believe that's true based on what I know about you. And what I've heard. The other thing would be that, you know, when you first start out in all of this, Rocky, what I've found is you find so many people trying to get breadth instead of depth. And what I mean by that is the internet is a great place to get breath, you know, but the question is, is the light bulb gone on for 10 seconds versus the light bulb being on for an hour and a half. And when you go deep, what happens is you're really lighting up a group of true advocates. And those are the advocates that are going to kind of spread your message if you do that correctly. out so the breath becomes greater. You know, it's, it's like me with the podcast show. Great. You reach a lot of people, but how many truly watch and listen over and over and over again. And those are the people that you have to really think about because those are the ones that believe in you. And you need to believe in them. And I would say for everybody listening today. Rocky's got a great program, please go to Rocky buckley.com. We'll have a link in there. You can sign up for his course you can send him an email. You can learn more about him out on the internet. He's got videos on YouTube as well. But we will have that link rocking it's been a pleasure having you want to incite personal growth been able to speak with you today about the services that you offer, the advice you provide and the wisdom that you're actually giving to all the people out there who are trying to lift themselves up into something new in their life, something that they want to change. I really appreciate you. Oh, thank
Rocky Buckley
Thank you so much, Greg for having me. It's been a pleasure.
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Inside Personal Growth with Greg Voisen · Podcast 986: How to Be Love(d) with Humble The PoetReturning for this podcast is Canadian-born rapper, spoken-word artist, poet and internationally bestselling author, Kanwer Singh or more known as Humble the Poet. Humble has a new book entitled How to Be Love(d): Simple Truths for Going Easier on Yourself, Embracing Imperfection & Loving Your Way to a Better Life.
Prior to becoming an author, hip-hop artist, speaker, designer, filmmaker, and creative consultant, Humble the Poet was a school teacher. Now, he writes/directs/edits his own music videos, performs regularly as a spoken word artist, works as an influencer with some great brands and speaks to public audience in universities, colleges and organizations about leadership and self development.
Some of Humble’s bestsellers are Unlearn: 101 Simple Truths for a Better Life; and Things No One Else Can Teach Us. And just last December 27, 2022, he released another good to read book entitled How to Be Love(d): Simple Truths for Going Easier on Yourself, Embracing Imperfection & Loving Your Way to a Better Life. This book is a guide to self-love that helps clarify our path inward toward the inherent love and value that is within each of us. This makes us explore simple truths for going easier on ourselves, embracing imperfections and loving our way to a better life.
If you want to know more about Humble and his amazing works, you may click here to visit his website.
I hope you enjoy my engaging interview with Humble the Poet. Happy listening!
THE BOOK
Explore simple truths for going easier on yourself, embracing imperfections and loving your way to a better life through insightful stories and down-to-earth advice from artist and international best-selling author, Humble The Poet. With short chapters filled with insight, advice, and personal anecdotes from Humble’s own journey, this book is a guide to self-love that helps clarify your path inward toward the inherent love and value that is within each of us. Throw away old ideas that prevent you from realizing the love you’ve always had within you. Instead of earning more, achieving more, and gaining more attention, clear pathways for love to enter and flourish.
THE AUTHOR
Humble The Poet (Kanwer Singh), is a Canadian-born rapper, spoken-word artist, poet, internationally bestselling author, and former elementary school teacher with a wildly popular blog with over 100,000 monthly readers. He has more than1 Million social-media followers, and his first two releases UNLEARN & THINGS NOBODY CAN TEACH US have become international bestsellers. He has performed at concerts and festivals around the world including Lollapalooza, NH7, and literary festivals in Europe, Asia and North America. Visit him at HumbleThePoet.com.
You may also refer to the transcripts below for the full transciption (not edited) of the interview.
Interview Transcipt -Not EditedEmailDownloadNew TabGreg Voisen
Welcome back to Inside Personal Growth. This is Greg Voisen, the host of Inside Personal Growth. And joining me from Los Angeles is Humble the Poet and for my listeners who listen to me regularly, uh, you can go back in my archives, and Humble has done a couple of other podcasts with us. He has many books, this book that we're going to be talking about today is called How to be Love(d). And the subtitle is Simple Truths for Going Easy on Yourself Embracing Imperfection, and Loving Your Way to a Better Life. It's a Hay House book, by the way. So big shout out to Hay House, love them. They're great to us and, and I know that humble was telling me, we spoke and had a wonderful experience getting this author through them humble. I'm gonna let my listeners know a tad bit about you. Before we dive into this interview, is a former school teacher turned creative. What began as resigning spoken word poetry and coffee shops to impress girls evolved into creative adventure that has now spanned 10 years crossing genres mediums and oceans. Now and an author and he's an author of way more than one book, go look for him on Amazon, we'll put a link there, hip hop artists, speaker, designer, filmmaker and creative consultant. He admits he's made a lot of mistakes along the way, like we all do. This is about being vulnerable. Actually being loved is about being vulnerable. And humble is very vulnerable. In this book expresses, you know what's happened in his life and things that he did and things that learn life lessons, since that's how we learn from one another. And I'm happy to share that. so humble, you know, we might as well start out in Oak for my listeners, if you want to learn more about him a home page is shopping shop, he's got a shop, speaking music, his new book, all of his books is community. Just go humblethepoet.com that's h-u-m-b-l-e-t-h-e-p-o-e-t .com. There, you can learn more about Humble. Well, good morning to you Humble.
Humble the Poet
Good morning.
Greg Voisen
Blessings to you. Thank you for being on the show. And I'm gonna dive right in. Because if you tell our listeners a little bit about yourself, I just told them a little bit and but really, why you wrote how to be loved. You've had many predecessor books that weren't exactly on love, right? But they've all been on personal growth. In my estimation, you mentioned that this book wasn't a labor of love. But a reminder that it's a labor to love. I thought that was an interesting way to put it. So what is the labor to love?
Humble the Poet
Um, I think a lot of popular ideas around love is that love is this prize that we have to win and gain from other people. Or earn or be worthy enough of and it's just a reminder that love is the verb. You know, love to service. Love is sacrifice. And love is the work, the work that we do, you know, can be inspired through love. And I remember doing that
Greg Voisen
podcast with rom das on love and devotion. And I guess my question for you would be around the word devotion because I, during that podcast with him. It was quite enlightening, like the ones I've had with you. But those two words are used frequently together. love and devotion. What would you have to say about devotion?
Humble the Poet
I think when it comes to devotion, you know, you know, the first word that springs to my mind is commitment. And, you know, a friend of mine in which I included in the book said, you know, honor your commitments, not your feelings. And I think the repetitious element, the ritual element of honoring a commitment, you know, and understanding that we are only entitled to the labor, not the outcome of the labor. I think so often we think we're destination oriented, when we should really be focused on the journey. So for me, love is that journey. And it's a committed journey. And that, to me is devotion. And understanding that, you know, our relationship is not only with other individuals with ourselves and with the world around us, but it's also with love and having an unconditional love towards the idea of love. And staying committed. You know, irrespective of how, you know, Rocky the seas are as we sell them.
Greg Voisen
Well, you know, humble but one of the things As the chair I was listening to podcast just a few days ago with James Timon, Simon. And you know, he talks about universal non duality. And for a lot of listeners, they understand they've heard duality before. But you speak with our listeners about the dualistic nature of thinking, you state that loves the experience, beyond duality, totally agree with you. But how can we move to this non dualistic thinking that is unified as pure love?
Humble the Poet
I think when we're younger, and our brains are still developing, it's very easy to fall into the trap of dualistic thinking things are right things are wrong, things are black things are white. And as we're young, it's, you know, as I said, our brains haven't fully developed to kind of see the complexities of life. And the challenge with that is we make a lot of really important decisions of who we're going to be and establish certain habits, what directions we're going to go to when we're young, without updating our software without updating those policies, as we get older, as our brains develop some more and as we're able to see a lot of the gray in between the black and the white. So for me, getting out of dualistic thinking is revisiting some of our old patterns, revisiting some of our old policies when it comes to how we handle life. And also approaching life with much more curiosity than judgment. You know, instead of looking at life, as this is, oh, it rained outside, this is good, or this is bad. Understanding that there's everything else in between as well. And opening up our mind to seeing the complexities of life and understanding that our judgments are what are denying us love from any moment or any situation. And so either reserve those judgments or surrender those judgments to allow things to be as they are. As I'm taking a deeper dive into surrender, it's recognizing that things are happening, irrespective of us, and they're not happening to us, you know, they're either happening for us, or they're just happening. And we need to learn to realize that these things are as inconsequential to us as they've always been. The analogy I heard was, you know, we don't have an opinion on Saturn having rings. So let's not have an opinion on anything else. Life is happening. Things are things are developing. And oftentimes the reason we have these opinions and get into dualistic thinking is that it goes back and connects with some previous trauma that we've experienced in our life.
Greg Voisen
Yeah, and you know, one of the things that we you talk about, but at the same time, we know it's ego, and that's what splits people is just this ego speak, if you would a minute about the actual ego when you're younger, and it says, Would you rather be in love? Or would you rather be right? I heard that said many times. And what happens is, I'm not just saying younger people, older people, too, unless they've reprogrammed, right? They're going to have this issue associated with the ego. And I kind of say, hey, the ego isn't going away. But you have to learn how to live with it. You have to learn how to I'm not gonna even say control it because that's not the right word. You have to coexist with this because it isn't going away. Yeah, I view. Yeah, I
Humble the Poet
view ego as a force of nature the same way I view gravity. And, you know, it's only until we understand gravity, can we learn to fly. And I think it's the same thing where our egos can serve as both fortresses to protect us, but also prisons to keep us trapped in. And I think what's really important is Love is the phenomenon, you know, that we've all experienced, that melts the ego, when you have love for someone else, you know, where you begin, and they end, you know, starts to blur. And I think that's really important. And especially when we make choices, what we have to realize is when we're feeding our ego, we're taking ourselves almost in the exact opposite direction of love. So that earlier comment you brought up so do you want to be in love? Or do you want to be right, proving that we're right, in an argument, establishing our autonomy, establishing our power, establishing our control, you know, these are all languages of the ego. And the thing is the ego, ego and love will hold hands. You know, love is forgiveness, love is service. Love is kindness, love is sacrifice, and all of these are going to melt the ego. So it's really a question of what direction we want to head and what experiences we want to have.
Greg Voisen
So true, so true. And you know, you stated that love is a path and not a destination that frequently we're looking for love as if it was a secret in a secret hiding place someplace. You know, we're looking for love people say that all the time. I mean, look for web, speak with the listeners about Robert Holden, the PhD term destination addiction and how It applies to love. I thought that was pretty fascinating. You pull this term, destination addiction. And how does this apply to love in your estimation.
Humble the Poet
So I think, especially in Western society, we think very linearly. So we think in terms of life having this beginning, middle and end, and we have to get to something, there's got to be a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. And I think destination addiction is just that this thinking that there's a prize at the end of some sort of journey, not realizing that the journey is the prize, you know, the pot of the rainbow is the pot of gold. And I come from Eastern philosophy, which is much more cyclical. So it's less about trying to get to any specific destination, and instead, just understanding where you are in a constantly repeating cycle. And I think that's really important. Because if we always focus on the end goal, then we lack appreciation for where we are. And it's really important to understand that, again, we're only entitled to the labor, we're only entitled to the journey where the journey takes us is not as important as what the journey does to us, and who we become through going through this journey. So again, we watch movies, movies, have, you know, endings are happily ever after a lot of this contributes to our addiction to having this ending this happy ending this moment, but that's not what life is, you know, you graduate high school, yeah, you finished high school, but you immediately go back to the bottom of the barrel, and start a whole new experience in college or at your job. And now you're at the bottom and you climb your way up to the top. And then you're gonna start at the bottom somewhere else. And I think is really important that we start to abandon this idea of these linear journeys that have endings and destinations. And instead, realize that, you know, we're in cycles, we have our, we have seasons, we have our winter, fall, spring and summer. And when we look at life in that cyclical manner, we'll be able to be less judgmental of the things that are happening. And as well embrace it, embrace the presence as it is.
Greg Voisen
Well, you know, as I was watching a Netflix documentary, by I think it was Jonah Hill, with Phil Stutz. And one of the things that they talked about in that documentary was this, this concept of pain, uncertainty and work. Three things that they spoke about, and what you're talking about on the journey is really the work we're doing the uncertainty there is that pain that there is right? The Buddha said, there's pain, and then there's the end or there's suffering, and then there's the end of suffering, the end of suffering, is that state of our mind that we shift to really recognize that as the fact, would you want to comment about the part about uncertainty, about pain and about work along the way, you were talking about this as the journey, right? Not the destination. It's always about the journey, personal growth is about the journey.
Humble the Poet
Yeah, completely. And I think as well as, as a society, you know, we are constantly sold more and more conveniences, and more and more pleasures. And they are addicting. They're, you know, they're addicting to have someone bring your groceries to your front door, cook your meals, deliver your booze or whatever it may be. And you know, everything at the, in the palm of your hand. Now, the challenge with that is it impacts our resilience, and when it impacts our resilience, that puts us into a certain world of Malic melancholy in itself. And I think what we have to do is reestablish our relationship with discomfort, you know, we, if you look at the emotion, we'll have the types of emotions, humans can feel, you know, over 70% of them would be deemed negative, but that is how we survived. That's how we thrive. You know, you don't learn much when you're happy, you know, you learn to the unpleasant emotions. You don't have, it's not a good day at the gym, if it was easy. You know, you need a challenge, you need resistance. And I think what we need to realize is leaning into and going voluntarily into the unfamiliar, the uncomfortable, even the painful, is the recipe of growth and the recipe of progress and progress is really important for us to establish a stronger relationship with ourselves. And so often what we don't realize is the goal here isn't comfort, the goal should be peace, and peace isn't having everything pieces, not wanting anything. And I think that's a really important idea that we have to understand. And the big challenge is we we've grown up in a society which is like buy stuff, be happy, buy all this stuff, and that's gonna make you happy, the more you have, the better you are. And it certainly tells us that we are not enough as is, you know, as if there's well that's
Greg Voisen
that's what the merchandisers are all appealing to right you know, when they're selling all their goods, and we live in a western society, not an Eastern society. And in that Western society, it's been propagated by an economy that says you have to have more. And that economy is being driven. And people are buying into that where I agree with you. Really less is more. It's, it's like, unpack your bags, right? lighten the load. You know, I remember reading one time, and I'm sure you can relate to this, that the average American, you know, when you saw these, what do you call them? The temporary places where people store their shit, I'm just gonna say that, right? That that we have 1000s and 1000s of that people have taken their shit out of their garage and moved into one of those storage units because they didn't have enough room in their garage to store the shit. And then they never go look at it. They never do anything with it. It just sits there storage. And so you keep thinking to yourself, it's like, wow, kind of lighten the load. It's it seems like it's a lot to carry around. And it's heavy. And, and so on this theme of love. You know, you speak with us about Aubrey Marcus, he actually is my son's coach. So I know him well. And how he differentiates big l love and small l love. He states that small love gives us pleasure. And B big l love gives us peace, just like you just said a second ago. How do you recommend or recognize the differences between the two? For our listeners?
Humble the Poet
I think it's important for us to, you know, create an anchor of peace. I think, you know, the first thing we have to do is you know, go back and remember what it feels like to have peace. I think so often. Pleasure gets so overwhelming that we don't realize that we're not even enhancing our lives with pleasure anymore. We're medicating our lack of peace. So I think the important thing is to understand what brings you peace, or what are some of these nutritious experiences that you've had or relationships that you had. And for those who have had healthy family dynamics, I think that's a great place to start. When you think for big for big l love. Thinking about activities that you do that you don't care if anybody's watching that brings you joy, and peace. I think those are important. And also we're doing it gives you a level of satisfaction versus when you do the small l love stuff chasing pleasure. Pleasure is extremely temporary, it's delicious. But there's no nutritional value to it. And as you chase more. And I kind of think about healthy eating versus fast food. And I think when no one is a lot more convenient and quick and cheap. But at the end of the day you do it long enough, is going to eventually bite you in the ass. So I think it's really important think of it from that standpoint. And I think as well as going back to the ego, you know, the small l stuff is what scratches and the itch of the ego, even though it's an insatiable edge. Yeah, versus, you know, the big l love. There's another quote in the book that says, you know, small l love, you know, makes you feel smaller and small worlds big l love makes you feel bigger in a big world. Does your world feel bigger? Do you feel bigger in that big world, I think does a really good measurement right there for the types of activities. And people we should be around.
Greg Voisen
Yeah, it happened yesterday, I actually, this is the time of year where I actually distributed a lot of my gift cards to the homeless. So I'm out on the streets with the homeless, giving them the gift cards and doing my little interviews with them and so on. And, you know, you leave an incident like that, knowing that you're helping somebody to actually maybe get a meal and get something to eat, do something, it has so much more significance than chasing down. Pardon me for saying this. But you know, another Christmas present somewhere, right? Because you're now reverse the gift. You know, you got this gift of giving this gift of giving and the receipt is to see the faces of the people and understand what's going on and emotionally understand how somebody actually gets there, you know, actually ends up out on the street. And, you know, just that is what I call the Big L That's the way to be at peace because I left there with so much peace. You know, in your chapter on love attracts love. You speak about anxiety, worry and uncertainty about love. And we've all been there. You know, it's like people that get jealous. They, you know, it's a pretty common thing. I think more among younger people than it is older people but certainly younger people. How do we get rid of the unwanted emotions and realize the love in our life regardless of whether or not somebody accepts us or not? In other words, hey, you got rejected. I've seen people do some pretty crazy things when they get rejected. And what you got to realize is that you're the only one responsible nobody out there or is responsible for giving you love. Nobody outside of you is responsible for giving. But that's a hard one. Because people look at love as togetherness there saying, oh, well, I'm supposed to be together with this person, you know, that was the love of my life that I lost or whatever. And I get there's tons of emotional pain and pain at breakup. But how do you help people get rid of these unwanted emotions, I'm gonna call them emotions. Because then they're just sad, and they're lonely, and they're depressed, and they're angry. And, you know, you can name every emotion that comes up. But that's what happens.
Humble the Poet
I think the important thing is to, you know, not label them as unwanted, you know, emotions are all essential and necessary. And as I said, the vast majority of emotions a human can feel, or would lean on negative side. So I think other than happiness, and surprise and surprise in itself can go both ways. All the other emotions on a human emotion, we all would lean negative, because that is what allows us to survive. And I would also, caution, listeners understand this, most of the things that we chase, thinking is Love isn't love. You know, rejection just means it's, you know, that's the opposite of acceptance and validation, acceptance, and validation, on love. That's acceptance, and validation, these are facsimiles of love, power control, attraction, attention, status, success, you know, desire, all of these things have been related to love, but they're not love, you know, love loves what is existing, when all these emotions are gone, all the experiences are gone. Now, you know, in these situations, you know, you always have a relationship with yourself and a relationship with somebody else, if I reach out to somebody, and I want to connect with them, and I'm rejected, you know, I can view their rejection, as you know, and I can take it extremely personal. Or I can, you know, view this as well as a moment of self-respect, where, you know, I put myself out there and I took a risk. You know, nobody is promised to be accepted by everybody. You know, even we don't accept everybody or love, or like everybody in that capacity. And I think it's really important to understand that that these emotions aren't. You know, things that we need to avoid. If you work in sales, the first thing they're going to get you to do is learn to have a healthier relationship with rejection. Understanding that rejection isn't about you. It's the other person's story. You know, somebody, somebody tries to sell me a dishwasher, and I don't need a dishwasher. There's no reflection on them or their dishwasher. That's not where I am in my life. And
Greg Voisen
but in a non-dualistic world. Let's go back and visit that for a second. We're talking about these dualities now again, but in that non dualistic world, humble, what is supposed to happen. Okay, is this purity of unconditional love? We are all one, we're together. So when you look at them out over the masses, you know, I was just, I was just flying an air, I am in airport terminals, and I'm in waiting in queues, and I'm all over. I mean, you look out at the people. And you really look at it with unconditional love that were, hey, we're all in this together trying to get on this plane. There's no reason to get upset. There's no reason to be in a hurry. There's no reason to do any of that. Yet. There's this something inside of you frequently, that spins up and says, and I gotta go to the front of the line now and you get what I'm talking about. Right? Yeah. Yeah. Because there is no peace in that. No, no, there is no peace in that just period there isn't. There's anxiety in it. There's worry, there's frustration. How do you tell people or at least inform them or because you know, you're looking right now as you know, in your philosophy, to find a world of peace. I see your sign behind you freedom as having nothing to lose, you know, but everybody thinks they're gonna lose something if they don't get in line at front of somebody. Okay, because we're gonna run out of something. And it's this scarcity mentality. There aren't enough people, there isn't enough of this. There's not enough of anything. So if I don't hurry up and get my enough, then I'm gonna run out.
Humble the Poet
And I think it's about acknowledging these apparatuses and systems that have been developed for that. You know, I think it's important to understand that a lot of causes of our disease is believing that we live in a universe of one. And I don't mean that in a positive sense. I mean, the sense that we are the center of the unit First and nothing else matters. And then you go to the airport. And not only, you know, do you have this urge to be at the front of the line, they'll also say, well, if you're in a certain socio economic standpoint, you can afford to get to the front of the line. You know, it doesn't it's not a meritocracy, who got there first, it's about who can pay the most. And, you know, in that decides, if you get to have a meal on your flight that gets set aside, if you're, if your chair has a little bit more cushioning that decides how many people you have to coexist with. And I think it's a really interesting standpoint, because it goes back to how the society is being developed, and how unnatural that is, you know, because what that does is that encourages us to become almost robotic, in the sense of our productivity, we got to be on like, we're computers, all of a sudden, when no other animal on earth, you know, operates in that capacity, they feed themselves and Sprint's build feed themselves in endless productivity. And I think it's really important that we recognize that and a lot of these things that we're talking about are going to feed the ego, you know, this, who are these people? Why are they encroaching in my space, and not just helping us understand that listen, we are made of the exact from a scientific standpoint, we are made up of the exact same atoms, as the stars in the sun, and everything else on Earth, we are, we are no different, we are no more special. And you know, there's a beauty in that, because that makes us nothing. And everything, our egos are what separates the drop that we are from the rest of the ocean. And these rare moments where we can experience that that membrane melting, that separation, melting, that border melting between us and others, is some of the most beautiful feelings we've ever had. And I'm not saying it's easy. I'm not saying I haven't been in a hectic, crowded airport. And you know, had my emotions get the best to me. Yeah, exactly. And also, if you want, you know, get perspective there, there isn't an airport in the United States, that is more hectic than an airport and a third world country, you know, or anywhere else where the population is 10x. You know, and there's no such thing as a lie. You know, lines don't exist in queues don't exist and all of that stuff. And it becomes a perspective really, oh, I miss the fact that at least, you know, at the terminal here, they have separated the lines for group 1234. Over there. It's just a crowd, and it's just elbows. And I think I think it's important in that context, but also remembering that, you know, peace is internal. Yeah,
Greg Voisen
it is an inside job, you know, it's an inside. And the thing is, I recognize that if we just breathe. And we take in, you know, there I, I go to meditation retreats in the orcas islands. And there's a, there's a, there's one called Tong Lin meditation, which is breathing in the pain and suffering that you sense people are having, we'll call it Ukraine, call it Russia, call it wherever. And then you breathe out the love and compassion, right. And it's almost like, I'm not recommending that people go do that meditation. What I'm saying is when you think about the process of what you're putting your mind into, even if you were at an airport, and you just took a moment, to close your eyes, I mean, a minute, and breathe and put yourself into a new state of I'm not rushed, there is enough, my seat will be there. I'm going to be okay. It does shift you it really does speak with the listeners about being enough we just talked about and not having to become someone else to be loved. Right? So here, somebody here, this is important. It's like, oh, I gotta do something different than who I am so that I can be loved by that other person outside of myself, right? How do we just love ourselves unconditionally? So we can be love, be loved by another?
Humble the Poet
Yeah, I think as I said, I think there's this idea of enoughness is just should not apply. You know, I think we need to abandon this idea of telling people there enough to just it's not a measurement that should apply to people. Enough as measuring recipes and your gas tank, as measuring, you can't be enough of a person, you can't be enough of a tree, you can't be enough of a flower, you can't be enough of a puppy. There's none of this enough and if you know needs to be abandoned, and anything that that comes from consumeristic culture as well. Were you meant to feel like you are inadequate as you are and you need to have some more shit to feel like you're something else. So I think that's really important. And you know,
Greg Voisen
that excuse me, doesn't it also come from other people who've said you're not enough? I mean, hey, you didn't get straight A's. Why didn't you get straight A's? You know, you're going to school, college, whatever. In other words, the psychologically, emotionally, spiritually, the people can actually lay gone to other people, that they're not enough. You didn't do a good job? Yeah, but yeah, all right.
Humble the Poet
But I think what that is, is that's the prisoners graduating to the guards. You know. So what they're doing is they're still taking these concepts. And you know, and again, outcomes could be enough, you know that I get the grades to get into Harvard, you know, that I, you know, the outcomes can be enough. But again, those aren't a reflection of an individual.
Greg Voisen
But you also said earlier about reprogramming ourselves. I mean, what we've been, look if, if my hardware, I'm sorry, if my software that I put into the computer doesn't care, and it's like, my software says, I'm not enough, I'm not enough, you've got to reprogram that. Right, it has to be new software that says, You're enough, you're now here. Now, the way you are,
Humble the Poet
I'm gonna go a step further and say, we may also have to make peace with the fact that some of this software is not going anywhere. Despite our efforts, I know, it's like, you buy a phone, it already comes preloaded with software, and there's nothing you can do to get it off, you can't delete the calculator app on your phone, you can't do any of these things. And I think a lot of these a lot of this software served vital purposes in our survival, the need for acceptance mattered a lot when we were in small village communities. Paranoia meant mattered a lot when we were susceptible to different predators. And none of these have any relevance or value in these large societies that we live in. And I think oftentimes, that's where a lot of these challenges come from, where you know, your enoughness didn't matter as much outside of what your community thought of you in terms of you contributing to the community when you were in a village of 100 people. And if you weren't carrying your weight or following the rules, you might have been shunned and ostracized, and that shunning and ostracism could have led to, you know, your actual death. Now, I feel like those fears remain. And I think the step number one, and I think this is this is where, you know, this is my belief on it. Step number one is acknowledging, okay, I have these limiting beliefs. They may be etched, or tattooed into my DNA, the same way software is built into a phone. Step one is to be aware of it. And step one is not to instantly believe it. And understand that for 1000s and 1000s of years and hundreds of generations, this served us, but now in modern society, it's actually not, you know, it's a, it's not serving us. And I think this first step to the reprogramming and again, I don't know if it can be completely a reprogram, or at least I haven't witnessed an individual with a complete reprogram of it, is to acknowledge it, and then be like, Okay, I can feel these things. I can think these things, but I want to believe these things, you know, I am, I am the soul within, you know, witnessing this, and I'm witnessing the world around me, I am experiencing emotions, and I'm experiencing thoughts. But none of these are me. And I think that's a really important thing to take knowledge from that standpoint, especially when it comes to this enoughness. And also just a reminder of the people you love, genuinely that you love that fill your heart, when you think of them, you could probably write a list of all their imperfections or their flaws. And none of those flaws or imperfections disqualify them from your love. And there's also true, yeah, it's true. Also, little babies that you've held for the first time that have filled you up with love, you've had no interactions with this child, you have no idea what their personality is. And it doesn't matter. It doesn't require you don't, you don't need five years with them, to establish a relationship to love them. love, the love has always existed, you know, the pathways are being created between us. It's just the older we get in the way our society is framed for its own economic gain. We feel like we have to be or do or accomplish something, to gain this love, when really that's just giving us a whole bunch of ego stuff that's really going taking us further away from love. Whereas I said, Love is how do you love yourself, go easy on yourself, you know, embrace what is considered imperfect, you know, you're able to do that with everybody else. I mentioned Beyonce video on YouTube where she falls off stage and like, watch that and see if it gives you a negative impression of her it won't. That the only way to connect with people is to be vulnerable. The only way to be vulnerable is to not be perfect. If somebody was perfect, they will be incapable of vulnerability because they have nothing to be vulnerable about. So let's embrace our imperfections. Be vulnerable, because that is the only way to establish meaningful connection with other people and cut through this membrane of ego and allows you to become more than
Greg Voisen
it does when you are aware that you are not perfect. Allow you to open up to receive more love. Because if you are playing I am Mr. Perfect or Mrs. Perfect your expectations of what should be because you know you've got a lot of attachment to that perfection. And I know when people play that perfection game, it often makes them miserable. completely miserable. Okay, I've seen it too many times. Now, humbly, you grew up in the shake faith? How's this influenced you? And how can you coexist with the ego so that we have peace? And that we kind of want to say I'm not gonna say serve the ego. But it's an interesting place. I've met many people from your philosophy, your religion, and you are very peaceful people. You mentioned in the book that it's one of the largest religions. And I thought Muslim was the largest one.
Humble the Poet
Well, I mean, it's top five. So I think you know, I think I think Hinduism is probably number one, Islam is number two, Christianity is probably number three, I'm not sure what number four is, but I think we're number five. I know there's, there's more people of Sikh heritage and there are of Jewish heritage. So there's more of us in Jewish folks, just to put a perspective in terms of numbers. But at the same time, we represent 2% of India. So you know, as many 10s of millions of us exist, you know, we're still only a drop is a drop in the pond of India, because their population is so large. Yes. I think the beauty of Sikh philosophy and I love referring to it as a philosophy more than a religion, because I like it and not sounding indoctrination, like indoctrination. But it talks about your calm called Low Mohan calm, which is your lust, your greed, your anger, your attachment, and your ego. And it views them as five warriors that can't be defeated, but you can that you can work with. And another great analogy with the ego is, you know, the, the door, you know, we've heard the mustard seed analogy of the mustard seed size door to heaven, the ego would be the elephant that you're sitting on. And you know, the only way to get through the door is to get off the elephant. And recognizing that look, this is if I want peace, my lust, my greed, my anger, my attachments, in my ego are the five things that I'm probably experiencing when I'm not at peace. And I think that awareness. Yeah. And I think that awareness is just really important to start off, because I think so often, right now we're like, Oh, I'm not at peace, maybe I need a drink, maybe I need a bigger house, maybe I need more followers, maybe I need a blue checkmark on my social media, we think we have to attain, attain, attain, and I think for me, I was very fortunate to grow up in a heritage that was like, No, you have to let go, here thinking is to let go, you have to let go of these desires. It's, it's not the, the unfulfilled desire is to desire that is the issue, right? And let's address the desire. And also, let's channel back to moments of your life when you didn't have these desires. So you already knew what that piece was. And so I think for me, it's really important from that standpoint, and also in the writings and the hymns. You know, it's very universal in the context of human nature. And one of my favorite lines is, if you want to play the game of love, come with your head in your palm. And it's a very it's a very poignant image, because in our history, you know, the 10s Guru asked for physical heads at one point of his followers, you will then need heads and knees and your Give me your head. And he took, he took five gentlemen into a tent and gave the impression that he beheaded them, he came out, he called for one, he got a volunteer, went into a tent, came back out with blood on the sword, and said, I needed another one. And another volunteer came in, he did this for five, five volunteers. And people started thinking that he was just going to cut off everybody's head. And then when he opened the tent, all five of them were dressed in new clothes, nobody had been beheaded. But you know, and they became his beloved ones. And the analogy is the sacrifice, love, the sacrifice. It doesn't feel like sacrifice when you're when it's authentic love, but love is to give up everything you know, freedom was having nothing to lose. You're free, when there is nothing left you can everything give everything away and not acquiring things. And that quote, and so actually have it tattooed on my neck. That was a gift from somebody who saw the tattoo on my neck. And I heard that from a survivor of the Holocaust. And she said, Listen, you're free, the moment you decide to be free, you don't have to achieve a freedom from anything. The moment you
Greg Voisen
lose. Well, you bring up an important point. I've had this discussion most recently, you know, I think it was Dr. Larry Dossey, spoken, speaking before a group. And he said the way the most important thing you have to remember is you have agency over yourself or free choice. Yes, and, and whether it's your health, or your spirituality, it's all about your choice. It's the choices you're going to make. And you have freewill. You have agency to lose weight, you have agency, to be a good person, you have agency to do almost anything that you want to do. And I think that's really important. And that's what you're really saying. And I want to remind our listeners, how to be loved as the book we're going to put a link to Amazon for this. This is Humble the Poet were speaking with you can go to humble the poet.com. In our wrap up question here humble. This book is filled with great wisdom advice. It's got stories, stories about you your own personal life. You've compiled over 62 short, concise chapters regarding love. What advice would you like to leave the listeners with about how to cultivate self-love, and then love others unconditionally.
Humble the Poet
I would say prioritize your self-respect over your self-esteem. self-respect is how you view yourself Self Esteem is how other people view you. So often we deny ourselves love and self-respect, in the name of being likeable and accepted by others. Self-love is saying no self-love is showing your teeth self-love is standing up for yourself. Self-love is establishing boundaries. All of these things can be scary because they can make you appear unlikable. It is more important for you to like yourself and love yourself than it is for you to gain acceptance from other people. Self-love is also going easy on yourself, you have never met a critic more harsh than yourself. Don't fight that critic. Embrace that critic with love. And as a quote in the book, don't beat yourself up for beating yourself up. And I think when we have this healthier relationship with those inner voices that we have that are critical, and instead of being combative towards them, that is a great definition of going easy on ourselves. And when we go easy on ourselves, we can go easier on other people. And when we go easier on other people, we will encourage them to be more vulnerable with us because they won't feel as afraid of being judged by us. How we judge ourselves is the measurement of how we judge other people, what we don't like in ourselves as often what we don't like and other people. So this all begins with ourselves. Embrace yourself. Accept yourself as you are. If anything goes the other way. Ask yourself what is my favorite part of my body? What is my favorite part of my personality? Celebrate yourself as is you can have progress. You can set intentions in directions to improve your quality of life, improve your health. But don't tell yourself that you're not enough as you are, you are enough. There's no enoughness again, as you are, there is no enoughness. But again, you want progress, you want to eat healthier, and you want to lose some weight, by all means do all of that stuff. And then celebrate the progress but also celebrate where you are and who you are. And honor who you are. Because I think that's really important. And to help your relationship you have with yourself that healthier relationship you can have with everybody else around you.
Greg Voisen
Well, thank you for that. I mean, it's it doesn't matter what time of the year that message is valid, but in particularly this time of the year, because I think people get a little amped up and ramped up. And you know, it's the holiday times and they've got to make things perfect, and they got to get everybody a gift and they got to go crazy. All you do is go out on the streets and you can see. And again, that's part of this Western culture, which is commercialized something called Christmas, you know? And, and I want to say Namaste to you. Thank you for being on this podcast, and embracing our listeners with some great advice and wisdom. You did a great job and I'm going to encourage my listeners again. Here's the book. It's a Hay House book, How To be loved. Subtitle simple truths for going easier on yourself, which he just said, embracing imperfection and loving your way to a better life. Six due to short little chapters that provide just wonderful advice and stories about that, humble Blessings to you this holiday and season, enjoy it. And I look forward to meeting up with you in Los Angeles when I'm up there.
Humble the Poet
Thank you so much. I appreciate you sharing me with your audience and I appreciate the important work that you're doing.
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Inside Personal Growth with Greg Voisen · Podcast 985: Influential Leadership Blueprint: Upside Thinking with Lisa Marie PlatskeMy guest for this podcast is an award-winning leadership expert in human behavior, business coach, and the founder of Upside Thinking, Lisa Marie Platske.
Her company’s mission is to transform lives through leadership and since its opening in 2005, Lisa has taught and mentored over 100,000 leaders using my 7 Pillars of Leadership through one-on-one coaching, workshops, live events, online classes, blog posts, and media interviews.
In all that she does, Lisa’s commitment is excellence. She customizes her approach in coaching, mentoring, and consulting leaders in:
★ Leadership: How to be a courageous leader worth following – without changing who you are
★ Positioning: How to recognize what to say, whom to say it to, and why to say it to increase your influence and income
★ Connection: How to build powerful partnerships that open doors to bigger opportunities with ease
★ Speaking: How to confidently get your message when you’re on stage and off so you are recognized and rewarded for what you’re called to do
★ Branding: How to package your talents, gifts, and abilities in a way that allows you to be seen as an expert
★ Marketing: How to crystallize what you’re meant to do – with the exact steps on how to do it
If you’re interested and want to know more about Lisa and her amazing works, you may click here to visit her company website.
I hope you enjoy my engaging interview with Lisa Marie Platske. Happy listening!
You may also refer to the transcripts below for the full transciption (not edited) of the interview.
Interview Transcipt -Not EditedEmailDownloadNew TabGreg Voisen
Welcome back to Inside Personal Growth. This is Greg Voisen, host of Inside Personal Growth. And on the other end of the camera is Lisa Marie Platske. And Lisa Marie is joining us from Kentucky. She was telling me she had her big heavy sweater on because it's like 28 degrees today. How are you, Lisa?
Lisa Marie Platske
I'm, well I'm well, I'm warm in my sweater, which is a good thing.
Greg Voisen
Yeah, yeah, it is a good thing. It's just like having a down comforter at night on you. It's really nice. Those are the best. What I'm going to do is I'm going to tell my listeners a little bit about you. She's an award winning leadership expert. She's received accolades from the United States Small Business Administration and the International Lions for women recognized as one of the top 100 women making a difference in the world. She left the federal law enforcement career to be a CEO of this international leadership development company upside thinking. she delivers presentations worldwide sharing research on leadership, and how vulnerability and forgiveness are critical to exceptional leadership, a member of the Forbes coaching Council, international bestselling author of seven books and regular contributor to forbes.com, she coaches leaders around the globe to make a bigger and more positive impact on the planet. And when she's not travel, traveling, she's taking walks in the woods, maybe not this time of the year with her husband, Jim, on their farm in central Kentucky. Well, again, a pleasure having you on and we're going to be speaking about your influential leadership blueprint which I needed, let my listeners now it will be downloadable for no cost, it's got a value of almost $200. So I'm going to encourage everybody to go to the link that we're going to provide. Because that's what we're going to be speaking about as much as she's authored many books, and you can type her into Amazon, and you can look up all those books, she really believes in this. It's a kind of a very quick kind of tool people can do to kind of a self-diagnosis. And find, as we were saying, before coming on the air, some silence and some peace with inside themselves, because that's what you do. So Lisa, I think it'd be good if you told the listeners a little about yourself, your journey and finding purpose and meaning in your own life and then becoming a leadership coach, that's really helping. And it's not only women, but it's a big percentage of women finding meaning and purpose in their life as well.
Lisa Marie Platske
Thank you, thanks so much, Greg, and I, I you know, I, I appreciate you using those words, you know, the, the solace, and I feel like that's part of the journey for me I grew up in, in Allentown, Pennsylvania was the by single mom, who I, you know, I, my sister and I, just the three were, you know, we're like three months to tears and spent time together. And, you know, it was a, a journey where there was not a lot of expectation, I guess you could say, you know, the only time that you know, coaching was talked about or leadership was talking talked about, was in in terms of my one of my sister sports programs, so not something that I had a background on, and came to the coaching world, from federal law enforcement, and not also at a non-typical, a non-typical journey, and loved you know, loved that, that experience that actually brought me to where I to where I am, and because of my mom and wanting, you know, watching her trade in so many pieces of her dream to be able to take care of us. There is this desire for me and why the influential leadership blueprint so important, is because everyone has the ability to have influence somebody to make a difference, to have something that's theirs to do. And that's what I'm hoping that this this actually provides.
Greg Voisen
Well, I'm sure it will. And again, we're going to mention it several times, but the blueprint is no cost to anybody. And you know, you mentioned in the upside leadership journey that you encourage your clients to be brave, brave enough to go for who they have been and brave enough to transform themselves. Have you as you said, we're a federal law enforcement officer and appears in Newark, New Jersey, the five boroughs in New York City, what happened in your life to transform you and improve your skills and emotional intelligence to become what I would consider more of a compassionate leader. I know law enforcement is can be very rough, sometimes it can be very rigid it can be, you know, and you look at a female in this, especially to it's even quite unusual. And you know, you carry these biases. And these biases are really tough to get rid of, and they become ingrained. And part of it. I know you I know, right now, you're probably busy as can be. And if you're aren't be surprised, working in the law enforcement arena, because it needs more and more reform today than ever before. You know, if we look at all the things that have happened, you know, the guy that was just convicted for shooting, the lady coming in her house in Texas, you know, there's story after story after story after story about law enforcement people. And I don't I've never been, but I must think that much of this is brought on either by fear, right? Because in certain circumstances, you know, they literally are put up against their own fears. What would you say to the average person listening today is not even in law enforcement, but at the same time, you know, to have more vulnerability, more authenticity? You know, Brene Brown, I'm a big listener of hers, I'm sure you are as well. But you know, to be a good leader, you need to be that. But in law enforcement, we don't always see that.
Lisa Marie Platske
Yeah, you know, it's really, really interesting, because law enforcement was not I didn't expect what was what happened in law enforcement to happen for me, and the guys at one point did not want to work with me, they were not, you know, they weren't thrilled to have me there. And so, you know, when you talk about what I did to be able to transform, I went into leadership assessments, I went into looking at, what is it for me to be able to transform myself into a leader that would be worth following. And when I took these assessments, Greg, the results were not like, it was, you know, I thought, oh, you know, they're going to, I'm going to not pass these, but I'm going to excel at this. And what ended up happening was I scored a zero, I scored a zero at an interpersonal skills assessment, and then that assessment, it had me really reflect on. Okay, so Lisa, you might be smart and tough, you might be strong and right, but you're going to be alone in debt, if you don't figure out how to connect with people, if you don't figure out how to transform yourself into something else. Because the guys didn't want to work with me, they didn't see me as somebody who was a contribution, they didn't see me as somebody who had the ability to make a difference. And so it didn't really matter what I thought about me, to be able to, to be the kind of leader that was going to make a difference there. I had to, to learn how to connect, I had to learn how to operate in that culture. And when you ask about, you know, this idea of vulnerability is an applied scientist. That's what I say, you know, applied scientist who likes etymology, I love the history of words. And what I learned about myself is that I'm very committed to Mercy. And then if Mercy comes before Justice, then it works out really well for me. And that's how I got involved in the forgiveness work. Because in the beginning, I wasn't a compassionate leader. You know, it was very, very black and white, it was very much. You know, this is the way to do things. This is the right way to do things. And as you speak about, you know, law enforcement, what happened as I recognize that, that created more walls, and didn't allow me to be able to make a difference. I had to learn more about me and get more vulnerable with me first, in order and forgive the things in me in order for me to then transform and be able to see what was good in others. And so, you know, for all the things that you share, you know, you're right, there's an element that's almost unreasonable. In law enforcement and that act, asking officers that are human to be superhuman, or to not give them tools and techniques to be able to better understand human behavior to better be in the grips of vulnerability and connection, because it's just seen as something that is, is, is not necessary, you know, in, in confrontation. And quite frankly, it's the thing that actually made a huge difference for me when I made that transformation for myself in opening doors, in law enforcement and in the business community.
Greg Voisen
Well, one of the things is self-compassion, you know, and I'm not certain that if people, if you looked at the trajectory of somebody going in law enforcement, that self-compassion is really what they were brought up with. You know, I don't know all the profiles, you do better than I. And it doesn't matter if it's a woman or a man. But you know, anybody kind of going into law enforcement or going into the military or more, their profile, their kind of profiled, right, it's like, they gotta be tough, they gotta be resilient. They've got to have this arena. Well, you know, this time of year, though, what you see happening is philanthropist throughout the country. And you can see stories more than one where the law enforcement officers are handed $100 bills to go out and just give them to anybody that they know, on their beat. Right? And it really always surprises me, because, you know, they'll take these video cameras and video, the people. And they're just so surprised that a law enforcement person is going to come up and give them a gift. Because they're always thinking, Oh, my God, I'm in trouble. Right? The first is, oh, you know, and the surprises on their faces. When you see that is, is amazing. What you I said that you're a compassionate leader, and that your emotional intelligence is extremely high. And I know we know all the studies that have done, what advice would you give about vulnerability, being a compassionate to yourself, being a compassionate leader with others, having a high degree of understanding and listening skills, because it requires a lot of listening, if you're going to be a good leader, and then nurturing the relationships necessary in that nurturing element, because it's, it's a lot of times, you know, that's about how you gain trust. And I'm really interested in knowing how do you approach getting a high degree of trust,
utilizing these elements? You are,
Lisa Marie Platske
you are so spot on trust is trust is that key component, once somebody trusts you, they're willing to share just about anything with you. And if they don't, there's very, there's very little that you're going to be able to open to do to be able to open a door that needs to be opened. And I feel that that served me really well. And it goes back to me to the realization that every single person wants to be valued, appreciated and loved. Everybody wants the same three things. And nobody wakes up in the morning and says, I hope today's the day I get it wrong, I hope today's the day that it doesn't work out for me, I hope today's the day that I fail, like that just doesn't happen. And so when you speak about compassion and, and emotional intelligence and trust, I see it as you have to first see each person for their humanity. And when you talk about the surprise in somebody's getting that, that $100 bill or that that gift card from an officer, it's because what they see is only one faceted, they see the uniform or the disciplinarian and they don't see the humanity they don't see the individual with the family or the or the hopes and dreams that they had that that may have been exactly the same as theirs. And when you speak about trust, to actually open the door to trust, so that you can have those components. You know, trust is not something starts with an with other it starts with it starts with self and it starts with even the smallest decisions, which is are you in integrity with yourself? Do you do you say what it is? Do you actually do what you say you're going to do. And if you make a mistake, and don't do that, do you go back and apologize, also to yourself?
That is, that is the
Lisa Marie Platske
simplest and the tiniest and the most practical way to be able to build trust, trust with self before you can open the doors with others. And so I see it as without personal integrity. How can somebody possibly trust you? How can they believe that you're going to do what you say you're going to do? And so when you talk about that, whether it be in communities, or whether it be in businesses, that is the groundwork the foundational components for someone to be a compassionate leader with emotional intelligence, now, that may calm you takes a degree of self-awareness in order to be able to understand that and ask oneself those questions. Without personal integrity, you you'll never get to,
to trust?
Greg Voisen
Well, you, you've also got another element around our emotions. And that's this interplay with ego, I think you have to really respect ego. In other words, you have to learn to live alongside of it, it's never going away. Many officers and just not just officers, but many people in places of leadership, they get there because they've had a strong ego. On the other hand, they know how to control that ego, to create a better relationship. And they're open to listening. And they don't always have to be right. Although the ego will say, hey, you know, you're, you're trying to be right. And the first way to build that trust with people is not always thinking you're right. That is a great way to allow people inclusion. And this brings me to this the upside, the upside thinking download that we're going to provide to the listeners. And you ask them to answer three important questions. Can you speak about the questions? And why in your estimation, and we'll get to the principles. But these are the questions. Why, in your estimation? Are those questions so important? And they're right up front? I'll just tell everybody right now, in this downloadable blueprint that you're going to be able to get? And so let's talk about those three questions. Sure.
Lisa Marie Platske
So those three questions are all about the why and why something matters. Because if you're not clear why something is math matters to you, you can't actually take action on it. And so those questions are designed to tap into first off what it is that you want your vision, your vision for where you want to go, you know, influence in looking at influential leadership influences simply having people follow you. It's having in being able to understand why is that important to you? What is it that you actually want? Who are you? That's really what the those questions are all about to provide a framework before you actually get into the three principles?
So
Greg Voisen
then, let's, let's talk about it. That's the wise, right, that's the part of the wise. Then there's these three principles that are part of this download as well. And let's talk about the first one. Stop doing what you have been taught. How does this principle, help the listeners or anybody get closer to our goals that are in alignment with our values and our purpose?
Well, Greg, you've met
Lisa Marie Platske
lots of people in your life. And I would say that, from the people that I've met, most people operate life on autopilot, just walking out every day and going out and see and wandering around going to the bank driving someplace. There are so many people who are whether they're in their car or whether they're at home, doing something on a routine, not a routine because they've created it because they're saying I put this in my calendar to do it at this time. But rather than just operating life on autopilot, without truly understanding, this is the reason why I take this action and to be able to do that To be intentional and to understand this is what it is that I want. Well, that's, that takes energy, it takes effort, being intentional is oftentimes thrown around as a word, this idea of actually really having non negotiables in your life and saying, No, these are the agreements that I've made, this is the code that I have for my life, this is how it is that I operate. So stop doing what you're taught. What that does is it has you question everything that you're doing, and understand why do you do it? I remember, this is gonna sound like something's just so simple.
Greg Voisen
Can I ask you a question? Sorry, for interrupting, you know, frequently, exercises like these, like, it's a blueprint, you're gonna go and answer questions. And, you know, I can't tell you how many books have had questions at the end of them and answer these questions. And it's going to do, and I would say, you know, based on being in this business, as long as I have done almost 1000 interviews on personal growth and business and wellness and spirituality, that takes effort, it takes effort to want to do what we're talking about. The effort normally occurs when somebody has something troubling them pain that they want to get out of, because the pain is greater than the effort that it's going to take to relieve the pain. Okay. In your estimation, you know, you're saying stop doing what you've been taught, because you're on autopilot. And you're just kind of moving around. There's a sense that I think we ought to let everybody know that requires a big step. I mean, it's like a big step, it really is to make that and the changes you're going to make are going to be significant by just doing the work, right, they say, show up, do the work, you're going to have to do the work. And I know I may be going on a bit about this. But I really do understand how much we resist it. It is something that's resistant, because the body is kind of built to go back to homeostasis. It says, Oh, great, you know, I want to be comfortable. Well, the reality is, if you're not in some discomfort, you're probably never going to do this.
Lisa Marie Platske
Right. I could reach out over the screen and just give you a big hug for that. Because Greg, you're so right. Like, that's, that's it, like, one of the one of the pieces I speak about a lot is comfort doesn't change the world. It just it doesn't. And so me to get to this didn't come because, you know, I was sitting someplace and went, oh, just stop doing what I'm taught. It's like, no, I started to question everything. Because I was in such discomfort and such pain in where I was that it was like, what's the answer to get me out of this? And so if, you know if I hear people speak about leadership, and yeah, yeah, I want to be a better leader. I want to have influence. Yeah, I want to be and the reality is, it means that where you're at right now isn't going to be what's going to get you and take you to where you want to go. So that requires change. And when I feel when I'm getting too comfortable with something, I'm like, oh, this is not good. You know, because it means that that things are stagnant means that I'm not there's not evolution, there's no growth, there's not change. And from things as simple as you know, why do I drink water? Why? Who said that? I'm supposed to drink that much water? How much water do I really need? What does it do? When do I? I mean, as silly as that sounds like every little action to go, what's the contribution to my greater good, rather than just going somebody said to do this at some point and me not having context as to what it does. By the way I am now in this kicker not kick but I've been over the last two years. It's like one gallon of water a day based on my Wait, why not at meals, you know, at room temperature, all these things that I've learned from
Greg Voisen
right? Yeah, I in the water is a great it's a very small example. And it's a very small step. But it's a step in the right direction based on you know what you want to accomplish, right? I say everybody's an individual, not everybody's going to follow the same blueprint, but they're going to listen, ask them soften elicit questions around the why, why is it that you're doing when you start thinking about your own thinking is when you can actually make a shift? I mean, you don't have to believe everything you think. So all of a sudden, you know, you've made a thought, and then you go, hey, you know, I believe that thought, or if you really think about your thinking, right, and they call this metacognition, that's the term for it. That is what gets you to make better decisions. And that's what we're talking about here. Now, the second principle is to move three things a mile, you mentioned that doing one thing, well, can produce exponential adult results? How do we get out of the trap of having so much of our so much on our plates? And focusing on the most important elements in our life? Because you were single mom, you know? No, my mom, oh, your mom, your mom was a single mom. But so look at all this stuff she had to do, raising your kids. She was working. She was trying to get all this put together. And I see single mothers a lot, whether it's being profiled somewhere, you know, actually, last night, they were being profiled on Lisa Ling. This is life. It's, it's tough. Right? But for them to get out of the pain and suffering that's required, it requires them to take these steps. So what I'm gonna ask you is the, how do we move these three things a mile?
Lisa Marie Platske
Moving three things. Now, first, you have to know what those three things are first, before you actually can move anything. And the second thing is a what I see as a personal agreement. You hear you mentioned the ego earlier. And so and you mentioned, you know, the voices that actually help somebody propel. And so the mind can be is incredibly powerful. And you don't have to believe every thought or act on every feeling. And yet there are there are so much time spent looking at what has happened in the past, and what potentially will happen tomorrow. And spending time living right here and right now means I have to value the here. And now I have to see the here and now. You know, no distractions you and me, Greg and listeners, and that's it like no phone on a lap, no side conversation going on no typing anything, no, just being present here. And in order for me to be present here for you, I had to value me being here. And I had to set myself up prior to this to physically be present and be here. And so I learned that when I was in the government when I would, I had a I was a I was a supervisor and I was in a small office. And there were six people outside. And when somebody would come in, I would be on my computer. And I would look my head up, and I would lift my head and just look over a little bit. And they would be asking me something. And I would be talking and one of my employees said to me. You don't pay attention to me when we're having a conversation. And I was like, sure I am like I heard everything you said and I can. And what I got in that moment that I went back to the examination, which goes back to principle number one, was this idea that multitasking was a thing and it was effective. And I had to go to the research and go actually it's not. And the percentages go down tremendously and how effective you are. And number two was, it's what message am I sending by also trying to be in two places at once when it comes to another person and it sends the message that you're not valuable, your time is not valuable, what you have to say isn't valuable. And so the first thing is committing to living in the here and now and understanding that right here. All you've got is this moment you don't have any other moments you only have this moment there's not there is nothing else other than
Greg Voisen
that have to do with the value you place. I mean think about this for a minute. I've done exactly what you've done a zillion times. I've run companies with employees people come through the door. You know you're supposed to be in the olden days. They used to say the shell answer man you were supposed to be able to give got all the answers, right. And like you working on a computer or working on something, or on a phone or trying to concentrate on something. So the distraction number one is, is an important, if you're going to set yourself up as the leader in your in you have an open door policy, then you need to realize that, that you have to let people come in, you have to let them come in. And you have to say, or you have to say, hey, look, I'm busy right now. But I would like to talk with you, can you come back at two o'clock, and we'll meet. And we'll do that, right? Because I give you my full attention. And I want to give you my full attention. And so this comes to value. That's where I was going, when you have these competing values, about, you know, Lisa, walking through the door, but I'm on the computer sending an email to Bob. And Bob is more important, because Bob is going to be the next deal for the company where Lisa is working for the company. And she can wait, right? It's, it's these competing values that you have going on all the time. What? Because you've, you know, you've been there, what advice would you give to people today that are, and I know the whole statistics on multitasking. It just doesn't work. We know that you can't do or anything effectively more. And I think that statistic is like two things at a time. But really, whatever the number is Microsoft's done studies, everybody's done studies, we know that it's like, it doesn't work. What advice would you have for him?
Lisa Marie Platske
Go you are you mentioned the word and that is core values? What are your core values? What are the things that are your greatest drivers, and being really clear what those are, and being willing to communicate that in my organization is excellence, accountability, personal responsibility and service. And so if something has to, you know, there are times when even people on my own team with me, as the CEO, say, You know what, here's what's gone going on, and I'm going to take care of this client, and I'm going to get back to you on this, the communication is still happening, just like what you what you had had shared about, okay, giving the example with Bob, or this is the person who's the employee. And so I think you've got to really be clear on what your values are. And then you have to be willing to be in communication, in order to live out those values. Here's the reason why I made this choice. Is one choice better than the other? And the answer is not necessarily. It's being able to communicate and articulate what that is, in your scenario, in going back to Bob and saying, you know what, Bob, I know that this is really urgent. And I've got, you know, Lisa, sitting here in my office and give me 10 minutes, and it comes back and says no, this is the reason why I did this, because our company values are, you know, putting the putting the making people feel valued making people feel important. And that's what I did. And that's the reason why I made that decision. It's Bob's responsibility, then to come back and go, no, that actually didn't work, you should have done this. But what I find is that sometimes people struggle to make a decision. And when you understand what the priority is the number one priority. And you've been asking that in an organization, you make choices based on whatever that whatever is the greatest value in the organization. And for some organizations, it's people and for other organizations, it's not it's bottom line. And individual teams, it's the same thing. There's a certain culture and value. And when you understand what their number one driver is, you can make choices accordingly. You know, that's, that, for me is, you know, how you can ensure that you're not trying to do three different things. At the same time. You're not trying to multitask and make everybody happy, you actually have some sort of order, but you're also communicating why you're making these decisions.
Greg Voisen
Well, we do recognize that routine is valuable. And I want to make a statement, then we'll go on to the last principle here. That if you are mindful, and if you I'm not saying you have to practice meditation, but meditation has an opportunity to bring the awareness a greater awareness about what's going on and you're setting your day up. So if your practice if you wake up in the morning and you jump out of bed and you don't do your gratitude journal and you don't do it Certain things that you've set up that are actually part of a routine that actually set your day up to finish with the intention that you had. Right? You will find so much more peace, so much more calm. If you do that. I can only say from experience that it just works. And it because there is a higher power working with you, this is my spiritual side speaking, that's literally helping you set that day up. Okay, and it does turn out a lot better. So let's talk about your third principle. Courage is often more important than expertise. I agree. Courage is very important, speak with our listeners about your experience. And you talked about camping with your sisters and your mom, and what you learned about how important courage was despite your fear?
Lisa Marie Platske
Well, I used to think that knowledge was more important than anything else. And when I look back at life, you know, starting with, with some of those experiences with my mom, I recognize that that's not necessarily true. And so now my mom was, you know, a single mom, that would pack us up in the car, and we'd go on these camping adventures, and we did it because it was a low budget activity. And yet, my mom would send my sister and I off into the woods, and going off into the woods when you're, I mean, gosh, my sister and I sometimes were eight and nine years old, and there'd be noises in the background, and there would be this, this certain amount of fear that would, you know, bubble up for me because it's Yeah, who knows, it could be a squirrel, but it could be a bear, you know, and you can't tell the difference in your eight year old mind. And, and so, it, it gave me a certain amount of what I would say, you know, resilience to, to, to having the courage to still be out there and still be willing to be challenged to do what was what was not always the easiest when we were on those adventures. And it led to me getting involved in Adventure camps, through the Girl Scouts and taking travels to places that I had no idea, I wouldn't know any of the people and I wouldn't know what I would be getting myself into. And, you know, I remember one time, you know, going on one where I thought, I still remember what I say to you, I thought it like I remember thinking the thought outside, you know, no tent, trying to strike these matches, you know, they had given me to build a fire with these couple of sticks that I had gathered, and it just not working me thinking like, what are you doing, like, what, in the what, what in the world and, and then saying to myself, you can do this, like you, you know, if nothing else, you know, and you wake and you never start this fire, like you can do this, you can sleep out here, because the other thought this, there's this part of my brain that's going you know, run back to the, you know, you know, find somebody find somebody you know, you'll find, find a camp counselor, and you know, somebody's gotta be hiding around somewhere, and, and get yourself out of this mess, you know, and then there's the other part of me that's going, you know, you have the ability to do this, you know, you may not, you may not have all the tools, you may not have all the all the knowledge, but you're you are wise and you are courageous and you are brave, and you are able to do this. And, you know, I look back in my life at the number of times where that was the case where it was like, wasn't the smartest person on the team or I wasn't the person that had the greatest amount of expertise. And yet, I had the internal desire to take action and taking that leap of faith, which truly was a leap of faith allowed me to move forward with so many things. I wouldn’t have written a book, I wouldn't open a business, I wouldn't have done any of those things. And yet I have conversations with people that are waiting for the next certification or the next class or the next. Something to do before they're going to take their leap. It's like it's not a leap of faith. Then if you actually wait until all your you know your i's are dotted and your T's are crossed. Sometimes you just do it and you go this is crazy. You know, this is nuts. You know, I have no idea how this is going to work out but I can't wait to see and perhaps it goes back to what you said. About Your into the morning routine, which is, you know, I start off with getting on my knees and saying to God, like, here's my contribution today, you know what's yours gonna be because it's I don't know what the day is going to bring, and I don't know what life is going to bring. And I, I see that courage is so much more important than the expertise because it's the willingness to put yourself out there into the uncomfortable situations so that you can affect change, you know, these three principles go back in a circle, you know, you transform you focus, and then you use courage, and then you go back and you transform again. And that's really what the leadership journey is all about. I'm happy to describe.
Greg Voisen
Oh, it's good, you know, and we haven't talked much about love. But, you know, self-love, is really where all this starts. And you know, it, people say, Oh, well, somebody had poor self-esteem. So they ended up this particular way, or whatever. But you've got to love you, before you can love anybody else. And if you can love you, what can end up happening is, you'll find that you have a lot more risk tolerance, right? You were talking about, oh, not taking the risk, you'll also find out that you're much more curious. You might not be radically curious, but you're going to be curious. And like you said, if you're waiting for everything to line up perfectly before you take the next step, you're probably never going to take the next step. You know, I'm just finished a book called the precipice of life with mountain climbers that some of them have been up Everest 17 times. And they'll say, you know, when I was doing all these interviews, and I thought this was interesting, some of the listeners may have already heard this, but they said if you're not living unless you've faced death. So the interesting element there is, I don't think we all need to go phased out. Don't get me wrong by saying that. But I think that part of that statement is basically saying, you have to risk facing something, right? And that's what's going to make you alive. Right? I'm alive when I reached that top of Everest is what they're all saying, or I'm alive when I climb the highest seven summits or, and they really do get addicted to it. By the way, it's an addicting kind of thing. But the point is, is that you become alive, and whatever that is for you. And I'm not certain that that liveness is, and I'm rambling on here. But that aliveness doesn't have to be found, through you saying, take a psycho celibate in or, you know, go take ayahuasca, or whatever, so that you can do that in certain cases, that's fine. I'm okay with that. But for the most part, it's about you getting out there, you taking an action, and you doing something completely different than you've never done before. That's really that simple, something that's simple. So with that, the influential leadership blueprint provides people with the foundation to get started on their journey. What are three takeaways that you want to leave the listeners with, that they can implement into their lives today, because this is the action part, this is all about action.
Lisa Marie Platske
So for me, number one is ensuring that you've got room you create room for stillness in space. You can’t actually hear what it is you want. Unless there's stillness in space for me, I happen to like taking God walks in the morning, yes, even in the cold like I like to be out in nature and being outside and you know, that's, that's an important most important thing to take away, you know, you spoke about so many things and when I think about you know, what this blueprint is all about, in terms of, of you touching on you know, self-love is that you've got to value you as the number one as the most important in order to be able to take this journey and leading others requires you to lead your start with you and lead yourself first, which is the reason why these questions are asked in the blueprint. And so creating space for yourself so that you actually can hear number two, ensuring that you make yourself the number one priority to really love you. And number three is to understand it so and to recognize why you would take this journey is because the world needs you and your brilliance you have something to offer that nobody else has, that nobody else can offer that nobody else I can provide in the manner in which you provide it. Now, I mentioned I'm more of an applied scientist, I don't have the pedigree, I don't have the, you know, I try things out, I'm curious, you know, that is what the risk has done. But I wasn't always like that, you know, I was actually quite afraid of life. And quite, you know, you grew up in a family where there's domestic violence, you know, you hear a noise, and you, you jump, and you're scared. And, and so these are things that had to learn over time. They're there things that started with the simple and then became greater over time. So to remember that the world needs you, wherever you are. And whatever you're doing, because you have something, you know, that's, that's, that's an important one to remember.
Greg Voisen
Well, for my listeners, you're going to, we're going to have a link. But if you want to learn more about Lisa and her team and what they're doing, just go to upside thinking.com, we'll put a link to that. There'll be a link to this free download blueprint that we've been talking about here for the last 40 minutes. And you can use that you then can reach out to Lisa and her team, just by going to the website and go into their contact form reaching out to them. You'll also have information on the blueprint itself to be able to do that. Lisa, it's been a pleasure having you on inside personal growth, talking about the principles, talking about your own personal journey. And also, most importantly, giving people tools that again, we said it takes effort. I mean, there's tools in the tool shed, you might want to clean your yard. But if you don't pick up the rake and start raking the yard, you're never gonna get those leaves raked up, right. So I know a silly analogy, but it's true. There's that the tools are there. So this blueprint is a tool in your tool chest. And I just want to say that if you take the time to pick it up, you have an opportunity to you know, make a change in your life. Right? So thank you, namaste to you. And thank you to all your team for the link on the website that we're going to put up again for everybody upside thinking. We've been talking with Lisa Marie, about the influential leadership blueprint. Thank you, Lisa.
Lisa Marie Platske
Pleasure. Thank you
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Inside Personal Growth with Greg Voisen · Podcast 984: Open Boundaries: Creating Business Innovation Through Complexity with Ron SchultzJoining me for this podcast is a good friend of mine, Ron Schultz. We’re gonna talk about a milestone which is the 25th anniversary edition of one of his books co-authored by Howard Sherman entitled Open Boundaries: Creating Business Innovation through Complexity.
Ron Schultz has written, co-written and edited 25 published books on social innovation, meditation, emergence, science, and entrepreneurship. In 2014, he received the Social Innovation Leadership Award from the World CSR Congress. In addition to his book publishing credentials, Ron has written hundreds of nationally published magazine articles, and has had an extensive career in television and film.
Going back to one of Ron’s masterpieces, co-authored by the late Howard Sherman, Open Boundaries emerged out of years of seminars which attracted businesses and enterprises from around the world grappling with rapid change. Since it was first published 25 years ago, the book has been recognized as a seminal work in leading Enterprise Complexity. The process of interaction and emergence introduced in this book, exposes the myth that enterprise complexity can be managed.
If you want to know more about Ron, you may click here to visit their company website; and if you want to purchase the 25th anniversary edition of Open Boundaries, you may click here to order their hardcover format; or paperback edition. You may also buy this good to read book through this link.
I hope you enjoy my engaging interview with Ron Schultz. Thanks and happy listening!
THE BOOK
Leading the way to these adjacent opportunities is why the ideas in Open Boundaries continue to create a new future. They are as needed today as they were when they first shattered enterprise thinking. There is a good reason it, as well as the other books in the Re-Emerge collection, are classics. They are not about control and order, but a means of understanding and meeting the complexity encountered and leading it to a new and vital future.
THE AUTHOR
Ron Schultz has written, co-written and edited 25 published books on social innovation, meditation, emergence, science, and entrepreneurship. In 2014, he received the Social Innovation Leadership Award from the World CSR Congress. Among his books are: Creating Good Work – The World’s Leading Social Entrepreneurs Show How to Build a Healthy Economy (Palgrave Macmillan, 2013); The Complex Buddhist – Doing Good in a Challenging World, (Emergent Publications 2015); Open Boundaries: Creating Business Innovation through Complexity, (Perseus Books, 1998) and Unconventional Wisdom – Twelve Remarkable Innovators Tell How Intuition Can Revolutionize
Decision Making (HarperCollins, 1994).
You may also refer to the transcripts below for the full transciption (not edited) of the interview.
Interview Transcipt -Not EditedEmailDownloadNew TabGreg Voisen
Well, welcome back to Inside Personal Growth. This is Greg Voisen, the host of Inside Personal Growth. I have a very good friend joining me from Eugene, Oregon. His name is Ron Schultz. And Ron and I have known each other so long that his hair has fallen out. But anyway, this is his is Review, I'm gonna say the 25th anniversary of a book called Open boundaries that we're going to be talking about today. And this is creating business innovation through complexity. He co-authored this book with Howard Sherman. So a shout out to Howard Sherman as well. The first real
Ron Schultz
Howard is still dead.
Greg Voisen
Okay, so he's still dead? Well, we put a shout out to him wherever he is. But the book is a new addition with the revisions is excellent. This is actually this is 25 years, it's actually been 27 years. I think it was 1995. But the reality is, is that the content of the book is still applicable as much applicable today, as it was 25 years ago, but has been updated. So again, the book is open boundaries. Look for it. We'll put a link on Amazon. Ron, I want to tell our listeners a little bit about you. Ron's written and coauthored and edited 25 published books on social innovation, meditation, emergent science and entrepreneurship. In 2014, he received the social innovation leadership award from the world CSR Congress. Among his books are creating good work, the world's leading social entrepreneurs show how to build a healthy economy. That was in 2013, the complex Buddhist doing good in a challenging world. Again, same publishers this one and open boundaries, which that's this book that we're talking about the 25th anniversary edition. In addition to his book publishing credentials, Ron has written hundreds of nationally publicized magazine articles and had an extensive career in television and film. Ron has spoken and lectured at the Skoll World Forum and the world CSR Congress, the social enterprise World Forum, the Oxford jam and numerous social enterprise Alliance summits. I did his undergraduate work at the California State University, Northridge, which is recently accepted his archives for his collection. He's also on the board of directors for the Tom and for Bradley Foundation and the Institute for study of coherence, and emergence. And as I said, he lives in Eugene, Oregon, he transplanted himself up there a few years back. So, Ron, you know, you and I have known each other so long, but you co-authored this book with Howard. And at this point, it's like 27 years ago, if you would tell the listeners, how complexity played a role in innovation 27 years ago, and what has changed relative to our current complex business environments, as it relates to this because this, if anything's happened, our worlds have just sped up even more, and they've become more complex.
Ron Schultz
Well, what has to be understood is that complexity didn't start 25 years ago, 27 years ago, it started. It was, since the beginning of time, and probably before the beginning of time, it was this as a definition of complexity, very quickly, you and I interact, something emerges out of that interaction that is greater than the sum of our two parts, and not wholly contained by either. And when we start including more people than us, in that, in that interactive process, things get very complex. In fact, those people who are in relationships with another person who have discovered the relationship to become very complex and very quick. And so the impact on business has always been operating out of this complex environment. What's happened is we really haven't we haven't focused on it. We haven't recognized. We've been trapped in old ways of thinking, in this case, we're coming out of a mechanistic universe, that it wants everything to fall into certain predictable patterns. And the part of that's interesting, most interesting about complexity is that that predictability is not possible, because things are constantly emerging, emerging in constant change.
Greg Voisen
Yeah, the complexity part of it. It it's seems and I'm sure it's like you said, complexity has been here since the dawn of time. But it seems in the world in which we live, especially with the amount of technology that we have to deal with, and how much we rely on all of this, you and I hear making a call, that's a great example of how this world has become even more complex. You state that the process of forming and informing has always played a major role in this book. What is the paradox is by the very nature of complexity, that cannot be fully formulated, because it's is continually emerging, speak with the listeners about the slippery nature of complexity thinking, because it is very slippery, let's face it, you know, it's pretty hard to put boundaries around it, you say, open boundaries. That's why the book is open boundaries, because it's, it's tough.
Ron Schultz
Yeah, well, the use of the word slippery is very interesting and very apt. What we're really looking at too, is the notion that the, because of the emergence, because of our sense of things, interacting and emerging all the time, we can't hold on. And that slippery nature is about our grasping, trying to hold on. And it's one of the issues that has caused so many problems in this in, in and around our world is our need to grasp and hold on to things and keep them as they are, as opposed to allowing them to emerge to change. And the same thing is certainly true within our, our business. Foundations and, and institutions, we want them to be solid. And in this case, they're not there. In fact, they're, they're constantly changing. And so that emerging blog, and is, in fact slippery, because you can't hold on, there is no grasping. And, and that's an important quality in this whole process is to understand that within our the work that we're doing, if we're trying to hold on to something, it's just going to slip out of our head, we'll speak about
Greg Voisen
that, because uncertainty seems to be the word that's used. As a matter of fact, in business, there's an acronym, and I'm, I can't recall it right now, you probably can. And there's four letters, and one of them is uncertainty, right? It's like dealing with uncertainty, there seems to be in this emerging evolution of the times in which we're living today, much more uncertainty, I can remember what seemed to me. And again, this is perception only, that the world was a lot more stable. And, and again, I think that's biased thinking, I would agree that it's biased thinking. But at the same time, as a human being in the way we're made up and the way our brain works, and neurologically, how we fire, and our amygdala and how we hold things in this little brain up here, it has a very difficult time, wanting to make that change it fights, it definitely fights moving to this, as you call it, let go. You know, it's like, there is people I mean, you look, you're the one with all the background and training in Buddhism. And, you know, I have a quote on my wall over here, you know, the Dalai Lama says, you'll be remembered for how many people you loved, who loved you, and how much you let go, right? I'm paraphrasing, and it's that let go apart, then I have a feeling that everybody listening to this show has the most difficult time with?
Ron Schultz
Well, it is it's hard, letting go is in notion of letting go is hard. But what I what I've often said, especially when I'm teaching people meditation, is that it's not so much about letting go. It's about holding on. And if we're not holding on to something, we've got nothing to let go. And it's in in that context. I can understand letting go easier. It's I get there easier, because I'm not holding on. Stopping to let go up. And that's the whole practice. That's the whole idea of is it within a complex adaptive system. And that's what we're talking about here are systems that are able to adapt that in that change process. If we try to hold on to it. All we're doing is killing it or not allowing it to change and emerge as it wants to do and the whole notion of the systems you and I are complex adaptive systems. The whole notion of us It is constantly moving and changing that whole process of in the Buddhist, Buddhist area, it's called impermanence in the business area, it's called that damn change. Another yet another change operation, the thing is, is that it's always changing. Everything that we're doing that is adaptive system is changing the old. And that's why people were so low, let go of the mechanical unit set system that is very predictable, that when you build a widget, you build the same widget over and over and over again. And the system doesn't change, if you feel comfortable, think that they feel comfortable. But what actually happens is that stops them from really moving into something new about Lean, which is the root of innovation. Yeah.
Greg Voisen
And along with that, which is another Buddhist term, which is used, it's the acceptance of what is right, it's like we, we sometimes have a preconceived notion, as we're inventing something, making something doing something that we think it should turn out a certain way. And when we resist, we're not accepting what is or what's trying to show up for us, which is the emergence of the development of this product service, whatever it might be. Because we think it's got to happen this particular way. And in your comments, on the myths of the closed system, you state that in stark contrast to the Newtonian closed system, open systems are not mechanical, but emergent, I think that's important to note here, speak with the listeners about open systems and their emergent properties, because that's really, what the essence is,
Ron Schultz
yeah, well, we have this delusion, illusion that we can close our systems, especially systems that involve people that in systems that are, that are adaptive, that we, we, we think that if we can close them, we can predict them, we can protect them. And what we understand, of course, is that it's kind of why we build fortifications, we think that these fortifications are somehow going to protect us, when in fact, they don't only protect, they may protect us, but they also lock us in. So we can't go beyond those bounds. And we get stuck in those places. And in business, we're constantly having to adapt to what the world is shout out to where we're showing up. And so we have to view our systems, we have to recognize that our systems are open by their very nature, and that the closed system is the unnatural system. And so we can, we can recognize that our systems are open, we can be willing to follow that emergent process that will invariably app because, you know, we cannot do that, you know, any, any biological system, any living system is going to interact with something else. And out of that something new will emerge.
Greg Voisen
And at least find it fascinating. Ron, how over the years, you know, I've had so many people on the show, we're almost at 1000. And as you're speaking, I'm thinking of interviews I've had with Ken Wilber, who got involved in actually codifying what he thought the systems were inside of companies as well, right? So, and he used color codes, red meant that it was a very caustic all the way down to a color system, right. And the reason I brought that up is because Frederick Ledoux, who wrote a book who's over in France, I was talking with somebody about yesterday. And it's really about what we're talking about here that open boundaries, right? The open boundaries, this emergence, this being able to not think we've got to have a closed system, but innovation is the key. So you state that businesses know they must innovate to survive. And this is true, I don't think you can force innovation. And unfortunately, that's kind of what a lot of these companies who attempted to do, but then innovation are incompatible with the company's principles. You state that businesses know that they must innovate to survive, but that innovation, that they are incompatible with the company's principles are often produced confusion rather than growth. I'm speaking with us if you would about the principles, models, rules and behaviors that interfere with true innovation, because, you know,
Ron Schultz
I think that that's, that's a bit of a misunderstanding around there, okay? That they can't they can't interfere, if we're not addressing principles, models, rules and behavior is really how things happen, how things change and why they don't change. So the notion here is the principle of an organization, our environment, we don't change our principles, we go in with a certain way, we want to create the best product, the best products in this market, we want to become the number one. So the comms are, what we're trying to attain what our organization wants to accomplish, and that doesn't change, those stay pretty much the same. But in order to meet that principle, we create models that are constantly changing, we're trying to model what it takes to accomplish that principle. So we create a model or a representation of that it's not, the model is always changing, it's never complete. And in order to make that model happen, we have to have certain rules that govern the behaviors that will build that model that will create that model. And so what ends up happening is that when our model changes, which it will, it always, we also have to go back and change the rules that govern that, and the behaviors that were governed by those rules. And so if we don't do that, if we're if we if we have a new model, and our old rules are still in place, we're not getting we're not getting the behaviors necessary to create that new model, it's pretty safe. So it's a kind of a continual process of updating, and in our rules and our behaviors, to meet the new model to build the new model. And when we refuse to do that, or we don't do, we don't recognize that we have to do, we don't get what we want. And the change that we would like to happen doesn't. But if we do, if we maintain that what can emerge is often inconceivable, as I remember,
Greg Voisen
it being referred by Margaret Wheatley, as this these ecosystems, right inside companies, I'm sure you're familiar with Margaret Wheatley, his work well. And it and she would state things like you know, you can't have that innovation, again, like you guys are saying unless you have this opportunity for people to create another it's creating
Ron Schultz
a culture that
Greg Voisen
is consistent with that. Now, we know many companies have done a very amazing job, Apple being one to allow this to happen, Patagonia, you know, let my people serve all of those things. You want to comment about the creating the ecosystems that are necessary for innovation,
Ron Schultz
the ecosystems exist, what we have to do is just recognize that we are part of that ecosystem, we were part of a great, you know, it, we speak thinking that we're somehow separate from our ecosystem, that's probably part of our problems, in terms of addressing that, because we are very much a part of all of those different process. And to define one, you know, to define the environment of a business, as a separate ecosystem, oftentimes, immediately sets it up for a form of failure, we have to recognize that what we're doing is really connecting is connected to an entire ecosystem of our universe. And that each process of this that we that we're involved in, there's a there's an emergent process that builds it and builds it builds it so that it is all part of one system. But at the same time, that system is interactive. And that when we try to define it, by an ecosystem here and ecosystem there, what happens is we shut we start closing down those what we call open boundaries. Now it's you know, there was a thing called of yours. There is a thing called self-organization, which has been very big in this process and people have misunderstood Heliot says, businesses Aelia Okay, anyway, the fellas, we've defined this notion of self-organization Previous areas dealing in India triggers, you know, though businesses. What he said is that there is the self-organization, but it requires boundaries. It doesn't just happen in and of itself, it needs to be bound. It needs to have that that area around it. And this is the whole notion of promoter does is it provides that container that will allow for self-organization to take place. So that new thing can emerge, but at the same time it has that permeate permeable quality that allows it to open up into the world, the bar.
Greg Voisen
Agreed, agreed, you know, I think it's I don't know if this is the right term, but use it, it's having trust that the system will actually self-emerge itself evolve, right?
Ron Schultz
But you can certainly, you can absolutely have trust in that. Because it's, you know, as we say, it's one of the few things that it's guaranteed about business, that is going to change.
Greg Voisen
Yeah, yeah, it is true. And I think it's around the resistance of understanding about these, how this works. Right? That really is the thing that, you know, cogs up, it creates a lot of messes, a lot of messes. So, you know, you mentioned in the book that if Einstein was still living, that he had the inclination and capitalize on his theories and discoveries, that he'd be the CEO of the largest company on the face of the earth. I thought that was great statement. And I agree. But he didn't commercialize all those things that he thought about. And many people sense has commercialized what he thought about and made lots of money off of it. Yeah, him and Tesla and a bunch of others. What is business? And how can it thrive and embrace new ways of thinking?
Ron Schultz
Well, as we know, it needs, it needs to embrace new ways of thinking, in order to survive. And you know, business is a is a complex set of, of interactions, to produce something that that is something that you want to produce, there's something that you want to accomplish. And that's in business is about the process of doing for profit. And it can be for naught nonprofit, as well, those organizations are also equally as complex. But it is an organization process. And the notion of being able to maintain and evolve to a new way of thinking is merely being open to the process of that emergent, that emergent process of things, change of things interacting and new things coming out of it. Because the whole notion of that is that it's what can emerge out of an interaction is both new and now, which is what innovation is about. But it's also important to understand complexity is agnostic. You know, good things can emerge, bad things can emerge, non-neutral things can emerge, it's that interaction is not necessarily going to produce a positive emergence. So we have to have some discretion, some way of looking at things are discerning what is good and what isn't good. And that's what characterizes the business that stays in business, from a business that goes out of business, is that ability to discern what works and what doesn't. But it's also been open to that new way because we can find, we can find that path. It's like creating new neural net.
Greg Voisen
Well, it is because, you know, we have to adapt and adopt, we have to cope, you know, complexity thrown at me or uncertainty thrown at me or whatever it might be. It starts with the individual inside these organizations to be able to understand how to work with it, how to how to be a partner with it.
Ron Schultz
Yeah, we tried to, we tried to sanitize out the unsanded the uncertainty, that's a real that's a real mistake. Because it's uncut. We're uncomfortable with that uncertainty with not knowing that's what things to be predictable.
Greg Voisen
And well I'm part of that run is the system you were talking about. The systems inside the principles inside the company, the beliefs inside the company. You know, if you have a top line manager, let's just talk about that, you know, and I work under him or her whatever and they are pushing Need to get something done? I don't have the time maybe to wallow, which actually, if I could wallow, right, I probably make a better decision. They're literally looking for decisions to be made, because they believe that it's driving profit, the longer it takes to innovate something, the more money it costs us, you know, you can the list is a mile long, right. And it does require that everybody in the company, understand these principles, more clear
Ron Schultz
rules of behavior and the relationship with those. Yeah. But what we also need to understand is that complexity, and this is the place where we fall down and what blex complexity can't be managed, right? Because it was predictive nature, it can't really be met as it can be led. And so that's why leaders have to recognize the complex nature of their organization and lead them and not just try to manage them, because managing them is a continual system of posing the system, so we can get a better handle. Right? That's what judgment is about. And this is not in the paradox is, is the harder you hold on. Quicker, it slips away.
Greg Voisen
Now that's so true, you know. And in that, I want to talk about chaos for a second, you provided a definition, according to Mike McMaster in the book, can you speak with us about the difference between chaos and complexity as it relates to innovation in business, because
Ron Schultz
I think the best way to do that, Greg, is to use what we call a phase transition, which is actually very simple. So if we think of a block of bikes, as being assault, and as the sun beats on that block of ice, it goes through a phase transition and melts and turns into a puddle of water. And that puddle of water is the complexity out of which things can move, because a puddle of water can mix and it can feel other places within that water can find new avenues, and new interactions and new places to happen. And then what happens in that system, it goes through another phase where it evaporates, and it turns into a gas, and it evaporates up into the universe. And that is, and that's where chaos is that that dissipation of the water into that gas form becomes chaotic. And what you end up having is you have these little islands floating about, and so that there's real no real coherence within them. And so the complexity, the watery area, that in that phase transition, is really where we have the greatest ability to affect change, because the it is bounded, there is a membrane around that pedal that allows it to interact with other parts within that. And the this whole process is gets oftentimes gets old, that's too chaotic. When in fact, what we're saying is we're we don't we, the whole notion of the complexity scares us too much. And we don't even get to it. So when we kind of extend it out beyond the boundaries of what is really complexity into this area. Have little pockets that can't be understood.
Greg Voisen
Yeah, and again, is this as simple as this might be, to understand, it's difficult for our brains and us to, to actually implement, it's a lot easier to talk about than it is to really implement it on a regular basis, especially in a working company with hundreds of employees who are all interacting with one another and have to deal with this. And if you would define there's adjacent possibilities. You state in the book that the businesses that succeed are those that are first within an industry to see an adjacent possibility and to act upon it. Okay. And you and I have talked about adjacent possibilities before. And I hear the term being used. I'm not certain there's a clear definition for the listeners. So I'd love to give them a clear definition. And then how you think adjacent opportunities come about for somebody to capitalize on
Ron Schultz
the adjacent opportunities. So those adjacent possibilities also, what I call the case of communities are those possibilities that are one step away from where we are right now. They surround us, they every time we make, we make a choice, every time we make a decision, something new emerges. And none of that emergence, there is also emerged as a new set of, of these adjacent possibilities. And what it is about in our, from a human perspective is recognizing what they could be what they are there, they're right there. And it's a matter of seeing, again, they're agnostic. So some of those possibilities suck. And they, they are not going to deliver what we want others, others of those possibilities are going to be the next step in the whole process of innovative process of our business. And so it's a matter of really being open to those, and being aware of what they might be and what they could be. And as I said, an adjacency is the closest we can have to where we are right now. So it's just one step away from where we are, but we're surrounded by those adjacent possibilities. And the second part of your question is, how do you act upon it? You know, it's about the about right, first of all, it's about recognize about being able to see it in about seeing it that it is it is something that that makes sense for the organization. And that is that is part of it, that falls under the principles of it. Because it's within that system of principles model of rules and behavior that we can make that change to that new JSON possibility. And but without that, without recognizing to relationships, that pick a possibility that isn't appropriate for the organization, and just go down, rappel into something that really pull the whole company down.
Greg Voisen
I think Rita McGrath I had her on here. And one of the things that she speaks about is seeing around corners. Those adjacent possibilities, opportunities, as you might say, are a result of being aware. And you're actually aware, and you're looking for ways to kind of almost, I don't want to say this, but I'm just gonna say it predict what's going to happen, right? In other words, to have this little crystal ball and say, Okay, I, I, you know, we take data in from all kinds of places, we assimilate this data. And we rely on data, many of us are making decisions based on a lot of data that's being fed to us, whether it's through the Internet, whether it's through our employees, whether it's through other vendors, it's people on the outside, we hear from, and we hear things and then we go, ah, an opportunity. You know, this is something that I could seize. And I love the fact that if you are aware, you can almost find an adjacent opportunity somewhere, frequently. I mean, there's all kinds of examples of people finding them. Let me
Ron Schultz
let me define a little bit. So that there are we, the environment gives us cues as to what is about to emerge. If we don't see it, exactly. We don't know exactly precisely what's going to happen. But there are cues within the environment that says this is about to happen. And it's those people who can recognize those few who are the ones who can open up to those adjacent opportunities, possibilities it is in it is to a certain degree intuitive. It takes a level of ability to be open to, to what you're what's around you. And if you're if you're looking, if you're used to looking at this kind of narrow world, this narrow focus that that is, as a way of kind of filtering out all this stuff and all that we can miss the cues. And what we often talk about is how do you create huge spotters within an organization who can see what's happened. The Marines had a great example of this, they call them creative contributors. And because when they went to smaller units, they each unit needed to have this creative contributor who could kind of stick his head up metaphorically stick his head up above the hole and kind of sniff the air and get a sense of what was going on around them. Because of that very nature of exposing themselves in that fashion. They're easily killed, because the Marines will tell you and so that they become somebody that needs to be protected within the organization. And so they're the ones who can who have that ability to see not necessarily predict but at least be able to read the cues. Yeah. and be able to, to bring that back as a as a means of to operate the organization more effectively.
Greg Voisen
And I always like to use example, you know, I happened to hear this story about a woman and accompany back east Made in America. And some of the great examples of how people are innovative in that space. And one is that they, she decided to make customized books. So we know that the world today, the way it's evolved, you know, you can order a book off Amazon, and literally, it's almost produced the same day and it comes out. So she gets these presses and she customized books for people, anytime of the year for birthday holiday, with Ron's picture in it with picture of his dog with whatever produces his book. And last year produced 500,000 books that were customized the people were off the internet, right. And you because people love customize things, they like things that they can hand to Ron and say, hey, Ron, here's the you know, the picture of your family, and I put it in his book. And they built the story too, and the cartoons around it, right. In other words, the whole character thing. And it's fascinating how somebody is quickly able to take an opportunity, and push those books out, literally within days, to people who are putting them up the pictures up on the net, using the net to get them organized and put into a book printed in color, send it back out and use it for Christmas or holiday, a birthday, a bar mitzvah, whatever it might be, but literally has made a very, very successful business. And I love stories like that, because it's just, it's just fascinating as somebody sees an opportunity, an adjacent opportunity, and seizes it right. They didn't go oh, well, Simon and Schuster has to make all those books, because they're the ones that do it. No, I can make those books on my own. Those presses are cheap. Now. I can either rent one, I can buy one I can do whatever it was. It's just great. It's great to see.
Ron Schultz
Well, it's having that courage, if you will, to, to act on. Because what happens is, there's always this plethora of new opportunities that are coming at us. And it's the notion is to see what happens with a company like that is that they're able to pick up the cues as and move toward that, as opposed to having to look behind them to try and find what has emerged. Right. And that's the real key is that, how do you how do we train our workforce to be able to see what's coming toward them? Rather than having to look behind us? Because as soon as you look back, somebody has a competitive edge on? Yeah.
Greg Voisen
Well, you if we use what you call champions, language, businesses are made of ideas, ideas, expressed his words, then the critical barrier to innovation is stuckness. You said, and in adequate ideas and formulations? What are some of the questions that we can ask to determine if our ideas are viable, and discard the ones that are no longer useful? And this is very appropriate this time? Because we were just talking about it. You have a list of questions in the book. Yeah.
Ron Schultz
They're newly invent investigations, allowing people to invest to really look at what their organization have different pieces in? And the answer to that question, Greg, it's really in the question, that the ones that are no longer useful. How do we how do we recognize what's no longer useful and what's getting in the way of our process? Now? What happens? You know, I'll give you an example. That is that everyone had to go into your refrigerator. And they're invariably Well, at least in our urine, invariably, invariably, things in the back of the refrigerator they've been got that haven't been cleared out. And after a while, they begin to stink. And you recognize that this, this process is there. And so the notion is, it's not those things are no longer useful. And they're causing an impediment within the within the system itself. And it's causing an impediment up in the room themselves. So you get rid of those things. And those are, those are pretty obvious things that have to go. But we have to really look at is this something that it's useful? Is this something that is producing the cities adding to our model that is helping us produce adequately produce what we're trying to accomplish? And if it's not, then we have to let go of, and again, it's part of that process of trying to figure out what, what to hold on to and whatnot, hold on. It's a really a discriminating awareness and understanding that discernment of what it is that it is working what it is, and being blind
Greg Voisen
And now it's true. I mean in. And when you ask that question of anybody, any business, right, what you're trying to see is kind of, I'm gonna call it the delta between, okay, I do these things, this doesn't work. How come you haven't let go of what's not working? You're still doing it, you know, it's the old shit still back in the refrigerator. Right, right.
Ron Schultz
You and I work at, you know, I've worked in the nonprofit sector a lot. Yeah. And in the nonprofit sector, there's an awful expression about trying to get something done. Sometimes you have to kill the puppy. And the issue is nobody wants to kill the puppy. But the thing is, is that it does, there are times when that doesn't work, that's gonna upset all the people for PETA. But the notion is, is that sometimes that's not to do it's time. And that's metaphor, please. Right? Sometimes it's, it's, you know, we have to get rid of what we love, we are clinging artists to, we really want this, this is good, it's gotta work. And we try it and we try it and runs us, and we run them into the ground. So we have to recognize when is something not working, be willing to have that discernment to recognize when something is not working? And recognize it also understand that we're surrounded by other possibilities?
Greg Voisen
Yeah, yeah, it you know, it kind of closes you get pretty myopic when a lot of that stuff gets stuck in the back of the refrigerator. And once you clear it out, and you have the willingness to clear it out, you realize you've made room for either more, or you've made room to see what you have better, and say, Hey, these are the things that I use, why did I buy that other stuff? I didn't really need it anyway. Right? So that's a great example. Well,
Ron Schultz
innovation is also a notion of, of not only what is missing, but what can we put in that place of something that's missing? Yes. But it's not necessarily that there's a part missing, when something new might go into that place? Well, let's, let's wrap
Greg Voisen
our interview up with this question. You know, the book is got a lot of great stories in it. It's an opportunity for people. And we'll put a link to Amazon to this.
Ron Schultz
Yeah, also emergent for that emergent publications.com, because that link
Greg Voisen
to them as well, we'll do both. So go and get a copy of opening boundaries, it's going to give you an opportunity to have some insights, the open your mind, about new possibilities about way of thinking, new ways of thinking, Iran, all the stories, the ideas, the wisdom about complexity, what are three takeaways that you would like to leave our listeners with? That would help them thrive? In a world of complexity? What three takeaways from this? You know, we've been almost on for 50 minutes. Now. What? What would you like to tell the listeners?
Ron Schultz
Well, first of all, you have to things change, you're gonna have to be willing to be open to that change process. And understand that any, any kind of adaptive system that you're involved in is going to change. And if you do that, then it's, it's crucial to be able to look at your models, rules and behaviors, and understand that there they are in constant relationship to each other. And then when the model changes, which is which are trying to produce according to your own principles of the organization, when your model changes, you also have to change the rules that govern the behaviors that are put in place to create them. And if you don't, that's the greatest downfall. And that's, that's one of the most important aspects of this process, because of what we were talking about in terms of a formulation and inform what happens when we formulate our ideas, and we solidify that we locked into that solidification, all the potential and all the limitations of that of that process. And if we formulate and solidify a too much, those limitations can overtake the possibilities. And then we arrived at on a ride. So it's really important to be able to open to the, to the processes that are around us to be open to the to change our, our culture, our models are constantly changing, be willing to change the rules, that we cover our behaviors, and so that we can get one of those if we can do that, we can do that. Well, I think,
Greg Voisen
again, it's exposure for remind listeners to find In alternative ways of approaching, whether it's a problem, or it's an opportunity to look at open boundaries as a way to creating business innovation, through this complexity that they're probably dealing with. And the book does a very good job ah, undoubtedly dealing with. Yeah, undoubtedly everybody is. But the book gives us this great opportunity where people will look at systems the way they might be thinking, stories that other people have. So Ron, thanks for being on insight, personal growth. Thanks for spending this time with us. Here's the book. We'll put a link. We'll have a link to our Merchant publications as well. We'll have one to Amazon, and Namaste to you. Thanks for being on. Thanks for taking the time. Appreciate it. My pleasure.
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Inside Personal Growth with Greg Voisen · Podcast 983: The Connected Community with Cormac RussellMy guest for this episode is one of the authors of recently released book The Connected Community: Discovering the Health, Wealth, and Power of Neighborhoods, Cormac Russell. The book is co-authored by John McKnight.
Cormac is a faculty member of the Asset-Based Community Development (ABCD) Institute at Northwestern University, Chicago. He has trained communities, agencies, NGOs and governments in ABCD and other strengths based approaches in Kenya, Rwanda, Southern Sudan, South Africa, the UK, Ireland, Sweden, the Netherlands, Canada and Australia. Cormac wants us to revisit the role of public services and explains how an assets approach can improve community health, safety, and economic and environmental well being.
Cormac has also came up with several books inline with his vision. Just last September, he, along with John McKnight, released their book entitled The Connected Community: Discovering the Health, Wealth, and Power of Neighborhoods. This book is made to guide its audience in finding out how to uncover the hidden talents, assets, and abilities in your neighborhood and bring them together to create a vibrant and joyful community.
If you’re interested and want to know more about Cormac, you may click here to visit their company website.
I hope you enjoy my engaging interview with Cormac Russell. Happy listening!
THE BOOK
We may be living longer, but people are more socially isolated than ever before. As a result, we are hindered both mentally and physically, and many of us are looking for something concrete we can do to address problems like poverty, racism, and climate change. What if solutions could be found on your very doorstep or just two door knocks away?
Find out how to uncover the hidden talents, assets, and abilities in your neighborhood and bring them together to create a vibrant and joyful community. It takes a village!
THE AUTHOR
Cormac Russell is a veteran practitioner of asset-based community development (ABCD), which focuses on uncovering and leveraging the hidden resources, skills, and experience in our neighborhoods. He and John McKnight, the cooriginator of ABCD, show how anyone can discover this untapped potential and connect with his or her neighbors to create healthier, safer, greener, more prosperous, and welcoming communities. They offer a wealth of illustrative examples from around the world that will inspire you to explore your own community and discover its hidden treasures.
You may also refer to the transcripts below for the full transciption (not edited) of the interview.
Interview Transcipt -Not EditedEmailDownloadNew TabGreg Voisen
Welcome back to Inside Personal Growth. This is Greg Voisen, the host of Inside Personal Growth. And I have Cormac Russell, joining us from Dublin, Ireland. Good evening to you, Cormac. How are you doing?
Cormac Russell
Good evening, Greg. Very well, and very happy to be with you.
Greg Voisen
Well, we're happy to have you. And we're going to be speaking today about his book. Also his website, which is a huge resource, we were just talking about The Connected Community, subtitle Discovering the Health, Wealth and Power of Neighborhoods. This is also co-authored with John McKnight. And I want to give a shout out to John because John is kind of when you go to his website, he is a foundation in this particular arena. So both of them have done a great job writing this book. And I want to let my listeners don't know just a little bit about you. Cormac is a Social Explorer and author, and a much sought after speaker. He is the founding director of nurture development, which that is the website, nurture development dot o RG, and a member of the assets based Community Development Institute at St. Paul University in Chicago. Over the last 25 years, core MCs work has demonstrated an enduring impact in 35 countries around the world. He has trained communities, agencies, NGOs, and governments in the A, B, C, D, and other community based approaches in Africa, Asia, Australia, Europe and North America. This is his most recent book, he has another book that was released prior to this, called rekindling democracy, a professional guide to working in citizen space, you can go to his website, and you can also see a link to his TED Talk. So, you know, you had Parker, Palmer, write the introduction to your book. And it struck me with what he said, he wrote, many of us are hard pressed to provide color commentaries on our own neighborhoods. And for that, we're going to pay a price or we are paying a price. Our disconnection from people and place diminishes our quality of life. And its root cause is a range of personal and political pathologies. I agree. One, including loneliness, you know, just people separation and loneliness. And that's a big issue since COVID. Another big issue that people are faced with, what are some of those pathologies and that we're really faced with, in your estimation, Cormack,
Cormac Russell
Greg. It's a very powerful quote. And it's exactly what we would expect from a wisdom holder like Parker, and he's on the money on this one. I think like you say, loneliness is on the rise. We're looking at a deepening sense of social disconnection. But not just, I think we're paying for this level of disconnection with our health as well. So when we look, even though we're living longer, in many cases, people are living longer, but a lot more dissatisfied over time. So we're disconnected. I think from each other. We're disconnected. But we're also disconnected often from our own power sources. In terms of democracy, we're often outsourcing a lot of our agency which we could heart, you know, harness collectively, at the local level, a lot of people thinking democracy is about voting, or just expressing an opinion. It's about a lot more. It's about active citizenship. We're seeing at the moment, very strong examples of what happens when you outsource the production of the energy you consume to distance nonrenewable price gouging monopolies. We're paying a very high price for that right now. And we will continue over the winter. We see this in Europe, and we see this in North America and other places. So I think both in terms of our health and in terms of our citizenship, what he's really calling our attention to here is if we farm out our power and our strength to distant institutions, we shouldn't be surprised when we feel diminished, and we feel polarized from each other. And that's exactly what we're seeing.
Greg Voisen
Yeah, and I think it takes more effort to find things locally. So I mean, that being let's just say even farmers markets, right and buying your goods from a local farmer, that's very small example. But I know in your country, you know, you're using wind power to write and, and we're using some here, but not to the degree that Ireland has really pushed the wind power. And I think having those resources and understanding how we are getting our assets is really, really important our resources, our assets, and if you would speak with the listeners about good life, which is about collective effort and cooperation, not individualism and competition, how do we go about creating good life in our communities? Because, you know, I love the term that you're using to kind of identify what this is, which is about cooperation, and the collective. And what is it at the essence that we need to do to have more of that, versus this mindset, which this western culture that we've all been brought up in? has always, and I'll say, even in corporations, it's command and control. And it's been about competition, we are seeing a shift. It's a gradual shift. But I'd love to know what it is about the good life or how we would go about
Cormac Russell
that good life. Absolutely. That's really what we're trying to call attention to in the book. So for me, the good life is about Ubuntu, which is a South African expression, which means I am because we are, so it shifts my focus away from, you know, the Frank Sinatra, I did it my way, the rugged individual story, and says, We're not self-reliance, were actually other reliant. We're interdependent in all kinds of ways with each other, even if we don't like to admit it, it just is, as it is, we're social beings. And so the good life is not something you go off on your own and experience, we need each other, we need connection with place, with people, with culture, with environment. And I suppose in many respects, the good life is about coming home to the fact that a lot of what we need to have a decent life for ourselves and our families is much closer at hand than we think. But we've outsourced an awful lot of that power to institutions and professions who are very good and well intentioned. But for me, an example of this is what happened a year ago in Shreveport, Louisiana, where a school arrested 23 kids. So here you have a school where the kids go to school, and essentially the first people they're greeted by our security guards, and they're going through a scanning machine. And they're being patted down for guns and for weapons. And not surprisingly, if you if you have that kind of environment, very quickly, you get a culture that is competitive and aggressive, then saw 23 Kids are arrested, what happens? Well, here you have an example of where the story is about how the system hits its limit. So you've got a good principal, good teachers, good counselors, well intended security guards, etc. But none of them can keep the kids safe. What's going on? Few days after this happens 40 dads who live in the local neighborhood, say you know something, this is our business. We got good professionals, they're doing their best, but this isn't okay. So they go to the principal may say, well, we'd like to do something to contribute here. How can we help. And they set up what they call dads on duty. And they go into the school into the hallways, and without any force without any threat of violence or intimidation. With dad jokes and high fives. They start loving these kids back to peace. These aren't vigilantes, they're vigilant elders, who are showing up because they take seriously the idea that it takes a village to raise a child. And by the way, Greg, everybody believes this. There's nobody I've ever met. Who doesn't say Yes, that makes sense to me. But hardly anybody is doing anything about it. So if it takes a village to raise a child, what does it take to raise a village? Well, these dads reckon it takes the dads showing up. And so I think this is a really important insight about what it means to have a good life. The Good Life is contingent on the connectivity of the village. It's not something that we can do through personal growth on our own. And it's not even something that a family on its own can do. Even the best and intended schools can't do it on their own. It really does require the connections across the village. And that's the work to be done. I think.
Greg Voisen
What do you think that? I mean, we see grassroots kind of advocates and people that are much more motivated than others to create a movement, like the dads got together and did this small movement as you want it was a movement for good, the good life as you refer to it as how is it that we inspire people to want to take that action because it is really around an action, positive action to make something different, to change something for the better. And I, my sense is because of how we've been conditioned, there's a lot of complacency around us. And I would just love to know what you think, can be done to kind of inspire that and at what level and where do we start? I mean, I think he needs to start people at younger levels. Junior High School,
Cormac Russell
for sure, for sure. I think, what's really important is you often hear people say, well, folks are very apathetic these days. So they're not showing up in the way that they might have in the past. We have wonderful books like bowling alone, that tells us, you know, there's a retreat in the level of engagement at volunteer level and civic level. And I think that's all true, but it to be positive, I think, we know that everybody cares about something enough to act upon it. We just often don't know what that is. So I think the first step is to find out what people care about. And instead of trying to convert them to what we think they should do, it's really about deeply listening to what gets them going, what lights their fire. A lot of people, you know, it's really striking. They're more like clients, crouched over kindling, waiting for other people to light their fire as against lightning their own, you know, but there, it's important to not moralize, I think people get quite frightened sometimes by the scale. So I think when we can say to people, that however you show up is good enough. So during COVID, I was saying to neighbors of mine, get to know your neighbors before you need them. And it might be that all you do during lockdown is commit to call three members of your golf club, or if you're a member of, you know, a church link in with those three people every single day over the fall. If that's a threshold, if that's something you know, you can do, and you can do it daily. That's enough, if everybody did that, oh, yeah, locked down phenomenally more tolerable, right. So it's about seeing whatever it is you do, if it's about contributing to the wellbeing of the neighborhood, that's great. So I liked the idea that we're distributing the responsibility. And therefore small acts can make a big difference.
Greg Voisen
I like the small acts part. And I think that that's something everybody can do. You know, like I said, if you can just see three people, you know, my, my wife hosted a cookie exchange here at the house. And it's interesting, you get I, as the man wasn't supposed to be here, but I was anyway, you know, and you get to know the people a lot better. And you get an opportunity to, to commiserate and talk about things and what's going on in the neighborhood. And you state that, at the root of many of the world's problems is our disconnection from one another and from our natural surroundings. And I want to underscore natural surroundings. What are some of the side effects of this disconnection? And what can we do about it? I mean, I know when I know, for me a very important element. I'm just speaking personally, my listeners know me is my connection to nature. It's like I have to get out. And I have to be in nature. Because if I'm not, it's like, my whole creativity goes down the drain. And, and I don't have that sense of spirituality and connection to the greater, you know. I know I'd call it nature, right of things. So what are some of the side effects of these disconnections? Well,
Cormac Russell
what starts to happen is we start to numb out not just from our own instincts as human beings, but we start to numb out to all kinds of possibilities, the possibility of you know, if you could imagine standing at the corner of your block and you've got the these X ray glasses on, that allow you to see things that you typically don't notice, like the gifts of your neighbors, the possibilities of the network's the clubs, the groups, the generosity of the mom and pop a store that watches out for people who don't turn up To get their newspaper and we'll go and knock on the door. So all of these invisible but really vital things, these acids as we call them in the neighborhood, if we could see those, and we were connected to those, we could then tap into those as well as contributing, we could benefit from them. Now the issue is when you're disconnected, you can be in a in a place but not have a place. And when we're connected just to be affirmative when we're connected, we're in a reciprocal relationship. So we're nourishing and being nourished, and our nature Natura nature, we are soil beings as well as human beings. So human comes from the same root as humus. So we are soil beings, we must have a sense of being connected to soil being connected to nature, it gives us a rooted sense of who we are. And it makes it much easier for us to be in flow, to be in our citizenship and to be in our power. And it makes problem solving much easier. It also reduces polarization. This connection is similar to polarization, you know, where you're stuck at the cerebral level, where all you're talking about is opinions. When you're rooted with people in place, what you start to do is move beyond opinions towards contribution towards commitment. And when you're committed in action in nature in soil, hey, guess what happens? You start acting in a much more common sense way, you become a commoner. And it is healthy for everybody at all species, there's 8 million species on the planet, we're one. And just, you know, I think we just get to a place where we can be better at being human together with each other and with Mother Earth. And that matters, I think, a huge amount.
Greg Voisen
Yeah, yes, especially during these times, as we've seen environmental changes across the globe. Everything from wildfires here in California, to diminishing rains in many areas, it is very apparent that there is an imbalance going on the co2 emissions increasing. And you know, as you said, you know, the name of your nonprofit is nurture development. Org, it is about us making that connection again, you know, if you would speak with the listeners about your co-author in his book, building communities from the inside out, which became known as the Green Book. Also, tell us about the asset based Community Development Institute, if you would,
Cormac Russell
sure. Happy to Greg. So John McKnight, John has, I would describe him as a luminary in the community development community organizing world, particularly in North America over the last 60 years, is really, he's defined, I think, a huge amount of how we think about building community from the inside out, rather than from outside in which I think was very much the way things might have been thought about before he's his contribution became well known. So across is 91, this year of 91, in November, last month, so across the last six decades, you know, from journey and very deeply in the civil rights movement, working alongside Reverend Martin Luther King, and other key leaders, into the Kennedy administration, where he worked on affirmative action into being a lecturer, teacher at Northwestern University, and lots of high points. And I suppose in that journey, he trained Barack Obama and Michelle Obama, and asset based community development and community organizing in the late 80s. And then one of the things that might be worth mentioning for your listeners as well, Greg is in in the late 80s. Also, John and a close colleague of us, God Kretzmann. And about 70. And others, started to do something that I think really grounded and defined what we understand to be John's primary contribution around acid based community development. And this explains a little bit around where the ABCDE Institute comes out of. So in the late 80s, they visited 20 cities, and 300 neighborhoods across North America. And these were neighborhoods which had been defined by the some of their problems. So they were very much seen as backwaters of pathology. And John and Jody wanted to go in to Do those neighborhoods and deeply listened to people, not as problems to be solved, but as incredibly gifted individuals with experience knowledge, ideas and creativity, and wanted to try to understand from them what it was that they were doing to make life better. And as they listened to people, you know, share stories about times that their neighbors had joined together to make things better. What they began to realize, and this is where the green book emerged from that you mentioned, was the stories you know, as they listen to the stories about how people got together to be effective, they started to realize that the dominant narrative in North America, which kind of said, you know, things get better if you've got better schools, if you've got better hospitals, if you've got better institutions, was actually missing a trick. Because what those folks were telling them in their neighborhoods is things get better, sustainably better. When people who live in the neighborhood sleep in the neighborhoods trade, and the neighborhoods get together and see themselves as primary actors. And they take on the steering wheel. And they're the primary drivers of change. And particularly, when they use local assets, and they discover connected mobilize those assets. So in many respects, the green book was a compendium of those stories. So they gathered 3000 stories, which we're calling our attention to change that happens from inside out, rather than outside in. And that was community led in place based. And that book, The Green Book, should have a copy of here was written 30 years ago, give or take 1993. And it became very significant. So in our world, you know, if a book like that sells maybe 20,000 copies, that's, that's a best seller. So over the course of time, they have sold something in the region 140,000 Sorry, 120,000 have been sold and 20,000 have been gifted. So it's a very, very significant measure of John's and Jodi's and others contribution, they set up the ABCD Institute to proliferate the learning, and to encourage that alternative story, the inside out, citizen led story. And in many respects, that's the heritage that I tap into the ABCDE Institute, which is now hosted by DePaul University in Chicago City, is essentially, I would think about it as a movement. It's a social movement of folks who worked very closely through this perspective through this lens with communities.
Greg Voisen
Yeah, it's, I think, a great example, I was on with another gentleman, Dan Bittner, the gentleman who wrote the blue zones, and in a in a story, you know, he goes into cities. We were talking about exactly what you're talking about this asset based community. He, he said, Hey, look, you need to change the environment, to change the result. So he has a team that goes into the cities. And I think this is a great example. And they work on changing the walking paths and the bike paths and the ways in which people get exercise because his whole goal is to change BMI, the body mass index, so that people are more active, and successful. He's done this in many cities, and saved in the US, literally, in this one city, San Antonio, that he used an example $750 million dollars in health care costs reduced as a result of just making these minor changes, because people will utilize that when it becomes part of the environment. And when they're part of it. You know, so that was a great story. And you tell a great story about community and vorstand and neighborhood. And is it Devon care, and the Netherlands, where I'm Dave and Deb and care, and two individuals named Patrick and lender, tell our listeners what they did and the impact it had on the community. And it's just it was a great story that you put in the book.
Cormac Russell
It is a lovely story, and I'm honored to share it on their behalf and with their permission. So Patrick and Leonard are two gentlemen and I suppose to get the listeners in the in the spirit of the story. I want you to imagine sitting with them as they're sitting outside their front door so they're their neighbors and really good buddies. And what they do still to this day do is they take out their pictures and they sit up front, and they chat with each other. So they're good buddies, they chat with each other. And one day, as they were having a chat, they started commenting on how harsh the built environment was. So lots and lots of bricks with very, very little in the way of plants or, you know, softening foliage. And that conversation because they're both active men lead to let's do something. And so if you knew both of them, you'd see you'd see that if this conversation was only going to go in one direction, and it was slightly illegal. So they stood up, they got back into their houses, took out some pickaxes and some shovels and started digging up the pavement, bricks just under their windowsills, and under witches, some sand and soil and put planters in essentially creating a flower box. So each of them did this under their respective windows. And we're terribly proud of what they called their little street garden in in vorst, which is the name of the neighborhood and Dave winter, which is a city in the Netherlands. So, these two Dutch men, you know, very proud and they come out the next day. So they're sitting beside their two little street gardens, and their neighbors start commenting and say, No, that's very pretty, that looks nice. How did you do that? And, of course, being proactive, they told him, but they also then offered to do it for them. And before very long, you get this ripple effect where these little Street Gardens start popping up, compliments of Patrick and Leonard. And eventually, the word spreads from the street there onto other streets and other people say, hey, we'd quite like to do that. But is there a particular way you do that? Are we allowed to do that? Is that against regulation, and Patrick and Leonard just said, you know, don't ask permission, just ask forgiveness if you need to. But we need to have a nice environment here. So eventually, these things started popping up all over, they started mentoring other people on other streets. And so hundreds of these little Street Gardens popped up. And this is significant, I think, just to contrast it with the story that you told a few minutes ago around the green zones, because here you have local neighbors who are changing their environment, as opposed to people coming from outside to change the environment. And I would commend the Inside Out contrast here, wherever possible. And I'm sure you know, in terms of green zones, that's a really critical insight that wherever the green zones are the Blue Zones, excuse me, I think of green zones now because I'm thinking of Patrick and Lennar, but the Blue Zones are really powerfully also about how people feel they can shape their own environments. So that that's a little bit of what happened here. Because as Patrick and leathered started going to other streets, and essentially mentoring other neighbors on how to create their own street gardens. They started meeting other people, other neighbors who had various passions. So for example, they met a lady who was also sitting outside her front porch, and she was knitting. And Patrick setter, you know that I've been in hundreds of houses now, talking with people and I've met many people who enjoy knitting like you do. And in fact, we've got our own knit and natter group in the neighborhood. And these are people who just get together knit together, would you like me to introduce you to them, and she thought that was a lovely idea. And so what you see with Patrick and Leonard's as well as that they're connectors, so they're connecting people together like this lady. And a beautiful ripple effect of that was that group, that knit and natter group, knitted, a wonderful scarf that was three kilometers long to the colors of the local football club that's community owned. And they actually set a Guinness Book of Records in doing this the longest scarf ever knitted in the world. So these kind of motherhood and apple pie moments, but in all kinds of ways, the ripples stories, they're like the parents who found an allotment with the help of Patrick and Lennar for their kids to play and really was powerful. The most powerful story that comes out of that is the story about the family that came as guests, you know, fleeing Syria, and were allocated a house in that neighborhood. And the neighbors decided to come together to try to welcome that family at a time when in a lot of neighborhoods, there's quite a lot of hostility to asylum seekers and refugees and migrants coming in. So it doesn't always work out like this. But I think because of the connectivity And that had been created through the various ripple effects stories that I was I was sharing with you there, the people decided that they would wrap the house that the folks from Syria were coming to, in the scarf of their local neighborhood, and explained to the family, that what they wanted to do was given an outward expression of welcome and warmth, and explain to that family that even though they were fleeing from quite a traumatic environment, that they would be held in the warmth of that community and that they were safe. Now, I nearly choked up as I think about this. But this idea of a community, finding a way of welcoming the stranger at the edge is really powerful. And just it starts out with two guys saying, let's do something, and then slowly connecting people together, and building that collective power that collective agency. Well, it's
Greg Voisen
a, it's a tremendous amount of compassion on the part of the individuals to do something like that. And I think, as a species, if we're wanting to involve someplace, it should be to connectivity and compassion for one another, which is a very, very spiritual element. But at the same time, it's, it's a way for us to enrich our own life as much as it is to enrich somebody else's life. But that gift of giving, you know, finding them a place to live, wrapping it in the scarf, what Patrick and Leonard did, helping people build their gardens, you know, and you speak about what is required to create the connected community, the book is broken down into three specific processes of change. You call it discover, connect and mobilize? Can you speak with us about these processes for change in our local communities, and going from consumerism to localism? Because, you know, I think, look, it's we know the prevalence of big business today, we've I'll point to companies, it doesn't matter what it is, but let's just use Amazon, you know, that is consumerism. At its best probably. And then you have these other companies like Etsy, trying to kind of disrupt that a little bit by all the smaller homemakers where you can buy this. But localism is really more than that. So if you would, how would somebody listening today who might be in some small city next to me listening, or a larger city saying, hey, we need to have more localism, less consumerism?
Cormac Russell
Yeah, absolutely. So a lot of this is about imagination. But what helps imagination is the discovery phase. So I'll just take you through the discovery connection and mobilization phases really briefly, because it gives us it's not a map, but it gives us a compass and orientation point, in terms of how we might do something that makes visible what's often invisible. So that discovery phase starts with, what is it we have locally, which we may not necessarily either see? Or if we do see, we may not necessarily value what are those things? So there's an intentional process of let's map our assets. Let's discover what we have. And we can't discover unless we go and actually have conversations, go out and find out. So that's a really critical piece in the whole process. Let's start by looking under our own noses. Let's go outside, let's connect with our neighbors. And let's find out what are the acids that we have locally, in terms of what kind of resources what knowledge base what skills and gifts to our neighbors have? What do the clubs in the groups do? And it's really
Greg Voisen
cool usually drives those initiatives, Cormac? Because, you know, there was, again, it takes the drive and ambition and will to want to find these assets, it's to me, it'd be like building a big map. Okay, now, in a sense, it's like, hey, oh, great. I live here near the ocean, we've got the ocean, or we've got natural resources all around us, or we've got people that are doing things locally, that nobody knows anything about. Right. So who drives that initiative? And, and can they find all these resources on your website?
Cormac Russell
Yeah, they can. But let's just go back to that very important question of who initiates or who precipitates this? Right. I think the answer is that largely, if you look at how communities naturally organized themselves, what you'll find is that somebody in the local neighborhood has a concern or has a passion or as a care, you know, And so they can go one of two ways often. So one way they can go, as they say, you know, we tell a story about a mum, who's worried that her daughter is getting pulled in a direction she's not too happy about. And she wants to try to discover a way of connecting her daughter over the summer period with productive adults and productive activity, right. So here's a woman who could say, well, I'm going to refer my daughter to a program, and, you know, get her organized in some kind of activity for the summer, she could sort the problem out separate from her neighbors. But what she decides to do is to try to discover in the local neighborhood with her daughter, what are the possibilities here, and with her daughter, and she starts out really small, Greg, she starts out with a couple of other moms who also have a concern. They're working moms, they care for the kids on their own, they got to work summers coming up. So a lot of free time. There girls are, you know, 1314 years of age? And you can understand is the app parents yourself? There's a lot of concern about that, right? So do we go to the marketplace and pay for some kind of a youth program or whatever, or if we can't afford it? Do we try to get, you know, some voluntary organization to work with our kids? Well, she didn't, she decided she was going to try and tap in to the local assets in the community. And she discovered, even in this very low income neighborhood that there were hundreds and hundreds of neighbors who do all kinds of interesting things. voluntary activities, go out care for homeless people. She discovered hairdressers, she discovered police officers. And she went with three or four of her neighbors, they knocked on their neighbor's doors, and they said, You like us have young kids, we'd like to self-organize this summer, that every one of our kids can have a number of weeks where they can go and experience a work placement with you for a day, would you sign up to bring one of the kids from the neighborhood to work with you for a day, get your boss to agree to that. So we can change the story about our neighborhood that says nobody in our neighborhood amounts to anything worthwhile. And we can get our kids to recognize there's lots of amazing people doing lots of amazing things in our neighborhood. And we got really productive adults that they can look up to. So across the course of that summer, they tapped into the acids of their neighbor, their neighbors, and you know, their neighbors workplace, they couldn't have done that unless they went through a discovery phase, they had to go knock on doors, they had to have conversations, they could have been, they could have been consumers, right, they could have gone and outsourced the problem. But and this is a choice, I guess, that they decided to make, some of which was just they didn't have the purchase power to go to the marketplace. So if you don't have money power, you better have neighbor power. And if you want the neighbor power, you've got to go out and uncovers it's under the stones, but you got to lift the stones up to find it. So that's what they did they do or not, they talked to their local barbers and hairdressers, they went to look to the local assets. That's the first thing. But it's not enough to just discover and map, you also then got to connect those things together. So you might find that there's seven girls who really want to learn about hair braiding. And you might have, you know, somebody who knows how to do that as a local artist, but then they need somewhere to meet. And it needs to be bigger than the house. So then you got to tap into a local meeting place, maybe it's a local school or a local gym or a church. And you've got to go and you've got to make the connection. So that's why we go from Discover the assets that are disconnected. So you got kids to something, you've got maybe a skill local artist that's willing to teach, you've got a place that they can meet. But you've got to connect those things together. And you've got to build the relationships, the moms can just go see, you know, thank you for looking after my kids, they've got to do the relationship building and the trust. And all of this goes at the Speed of Trust, you know, but What's lovely about it is then you get to the mobilizing. Because at the end of that summer, everybody feels more confident, more buoyed up kids have aspirations that they didn't have previously. And what does everybody say at the end? What are we going to do next summer? How do we mobilize, get this going involve the men how about we get the boys involved? And now what you're creating is a new gang, a positive gang, where people belong, they feel productive, and they get to do things that contribute to the welfare of the community. That's what gangs offer in a negative sense. What this story is a story about discovering, connecting and mobilizing in a positive way and it's about localism, not consumerism. That's a great
Greg Voisen
story by the way, because it gives people an example that they can relate to almost anybody could relate to that. And you said the Speed of Trust. And it reminded me of a recent interview with Stephen Mr. Covey, who wrote the book, The Speed of Trust. And then his sister who was on for a book that had been in the works for 10 years since their father had died. Call life in crescendo. And it was really about, you know, when you think about it, as we age, we get the opportunity to continue to contribute. And I think that's what this is really all about, you know, is, what kind of contribution can we make? And probably, in this space, you speak about the gentle power of connectors, I've always been known by my community as a connector. What are the characteristics? And why are they so important to building a community of support and connectivity? Because, you know, those connectors seem to be the spark most of the time like that, for some reason, they end up looking and seeing connecting the dots, right? And it's not just connecting people, it's really connecting the dots around, how do we solve the problem? So tell us a little bit about those characteristics as you outline them in the book.
Cormac Russell
Yeah, so there, there are many, but there's six that we really zero in on and often, you know, try to invite people to see if they can find folks that might fit some or all of those. So the six characteristics, and it's important to say that we think about connectors as distinct from leaders. So one of the things that you'll see, the first characteristic is that they invest their energy in associational activities. So they're very focused on the Wii rather than the me. So you'll not hear them talk a lot about personal growth or me time, they're talking very much about how do we get folks connected to do things that they might be interested in doing together. So they're more focused on the choir than they are the elite solo singer. And they're really thinking that's, that's their nature, I don't, that you can train somebody to be a connector, they came into the world made this way, they very much enjoy belonging, and involvement and reciprocity, so that that's the first thing, their whole orientation is Association. The second characteristic is the achieve their ends, because they're trusted by the community. So they're not seen as being nosy as interfering in people's business. And their influence, which is important is it has nothing to do with the title with position or claim to authority. So I think in that sense, they're not in that second characteristic. They're not coming from a place of influencing by status. They're influencing their true relational welfare, and loss, right? A third characteristic is, they're really happy about giving credit away to people. So you'll regularly hear them, lift people up and feature people. So they're not trying to be more equal than eager. They're really trying to use their ability to shine a light on other people's gifts, and then to orientate the gifts of one person. So they'll say, Greg, you're a wonderful public speaker. And I know a group that could really benefit from your gift, could I introduce you to somebody who I think will really appreciate your capacities. So they don't ask, Will you volunteer for an activity, they will call you forth by your gift, they will know you and sometimes they'll see your gift before you do. And they will also know somebody that you will get on with like a house on fire. And they have the audacity to say, Would you allow me to introduce you to this person, because I think the two of you have just been waiting all your lives to meet each other. And so you really find it very hard to say no to a connection. But I think that's a critical piece. So they're very personal and how they talk. That's a fourth piece. They're talking to Greg, the gifted person who is and they'll, they'll speak in those terms. A fifth characteristic is they're not apologetic, so they're not doing this out of charity. They're not doing this because you know, oh, poor Cormac. He has no friends. Let's try and be nice to him. They're doing this because they genuinely believe that they can't be fully a community until comics gifts have been have been welcomed. in Psychology. They say that a mother's never happier than her most unhappy child. Well, a connected His mindset is to say that a community is never fully a community until the person most of the march and has brought their gifts into the center. So they're very much defining community, not by the strength of leadership in the community, but by the depth of associational life and are welcome for the stranger at the edge. So I think that's their nature. And of course, they're very sociable creatures as well. So, you know, they, they tend, they tend to, I would say, not be at the front of the room, with a microphone chairing the meeting, I think we're in the middle of the room congealing and bringing together maybe handing out cake and, you know, so that, that, that that's the best I think I can do in the short time to give people a feel for the characteristics as much well,
Greg Voisen
you know, it's a, it's certainly it was great in a, you gave almost all of the characteristics, and I think, in defining someone who is a connector, I think there's two words that are used, frequently used, one is connector and a Maven. You know, and, and in me being Jewish, you know, either one works, but the reality is, is that it is something that I am known for people almost interestingly kind of expect it, they're like, oh, Greg is going to introduce me to somebody again today. And you know, who's that going to be? And, and if I look at the number of emails that I send, for introductions, it's a lot. I spend a lot of time carefully thinking about, can this person make a connection? Could something spark what might happen as a result of that? And so my mind is always putting those dots together. And whether it's in your community, or it's through what you do, I think it's an important element, because you never know what's going to happen as a result of the willingness to make that introduction. And you know,
Cormac Russell
I can I can, I just had one thing that might be helpful for folks as well. What we noticed too, is that connectors are willing to step back. So after the connection is made, they don't have a need to possess that contract. And that's the distinction, I think, between a connector. And I don't want to over egg this, but perhaps a connector and a networker. networkers often talk about, you know, my network, connectors Don't talk about my connections. That's important.
Greg Voisen
Well, it's again, it's for the good life, it's for the greater good. They're, they're not in it for a personal gain. There's never a thought of a personal gain. It's about the we, not the me. And so that's how you make those connections. And if something good happens, and you hear back from somebody, great, you know, and you hope that it, that it did something, you know, in, in wrapping up our interview, that the book is filled with wonderful stories, we only got to talk about a few of those stories. But there's a lot of examples and advice on moving toward the connected community. If you would speak to the listeners with the tips that you provide to hold a discussion, which is the initial step that needs to be taken to discover, connect and mobilize the gifts of our neighborhoods. So basically, what I'm saying is the impetus, the starting point, right at the tip. You know, those discussions that need to be hold you, you spoke about it a little bit going out and you know, going door to door and talking to people and looking at assets and seeing what's available. What is this element at this tipping point?
Cormac Russell
Yeah, the tipping point. And I can give you a really, really quick story that because I think the question might be how do we do it on our street at very small scale? And the answer is learning conversations. You know, you can draw an arc you can go to where people are naturally connecting anyway, the bumping places and the gathering spaces, and just begin the process of finding out what people care about enough to act upon what they'd be willing to do for their neighbors help them. So in that sense, listening campaign, where you're going out, and you're listening. And an example of this, I have one of my favorite examples happened in Hodge Hill in Birmingham, where a Church of England Minister a pastor said, hey, I want to do I want to work this way. So I don't want to just set up projects I want to really connect the community and he found seven local people in his neighborhood who were really just good at connecting their community are good sociable people. And what he did was he said Well let's over 12, maybe 13 weeks let's just go without any agenda and give our community a good listening to and will be opportunistic, let's not make it hardship, duty or burdensome you guys already know lots of people. So just talk to the people you know, would be a little bit more intentional. Find out What's kind of moving this community? What are the priorities? What do people care about. And of course, if you got seven connectors that are already connected, I mean, most of them no 2030 people anywhere in the neighborhood, you got a lot of reach there already. And what they began to do also was, and this is the key tip, they began to be very, very thoughtful and very attuned to who are the other connectors in the neighborhood, who represent the diversity of that community represent, you know, reach into parts of the community, from an ethnicity point of view or agenda point of view that I don't in each point of view. And they found 93 other people, Greg, who are connectors as we've been talking about, so now they go from one pasture to eight people, seven on the pasture, to 100 people. And you know what they did, they went to those folks, and they sat with them, and they said, hey, you know that your neighbors are talking about you. And they're saying really positive things. So they told the stories back to the connectors that their neighbors had told about them. And then they said to those connectors, we'd like to have a party to celebrate you, to appreciate you to appreciate what you're doing. The local church is very kindly, they're not trying to convert you. So don't worry about that. But they want to offer the gift of their space to come and have a party with no agenda. So people have faith and have no faith just coming together as neighbors. And the ask of each of those connectors was would they bring four people from their block that they felt cared deeply about the kinds of conversations that were going on conversations that were about? What have we got? How can we use it to make a good life to make a decent life for everybody, but also the collectivize our voice to talk to outside agencies and make sure they're trustworthy, they're useful, and they're serving us? Well? Well, they had 500 People now in a room having a party sharing stories, good, traumatic, the whole mix. But stories that were really about that neighborhood about the tapestry of that neighborhood. And over the last seven years, they've done that every year. And they have built a really, really powerful, connected community that can do a lot of stuff locally, itself, but also is working much more collaboratively with outside agencies, police force, etc. And I really liked this idea, because what they're doing over a very, very steady course of time, is they're bringing the gifts of every single neighbor to the table. But they're also working much more effectively with outside providers and saying, Hey, we're not on our knees, we're partners here, there's things we can do ourselves. So remove the barriers, those things we need a little help with. So be collaborative, be on top, don't be on top. And then there's things you need to do to serve us. And you need to do that transparently and in an accountable way.
Greg Voisen
Well, you've given a great story about how to start that. And I think the book is also a great opportunity, the connected community to get a copy of the book. If anything this morning, during this podcast, or whatever time you're listening this to this podcast resonated with you definitely go to the website, because the resources at Carmacks website is nurture development dot o RG. There, you'll find lots of resources, there's downloads, you can basically a watch the TEDx talk, which I would recommend, but inside this book, there's a lot of resources as well. That's the great thing. So if you like reading, you know, get the book, go. And check out the website to learn more about what Cormac is advocating. And if you feel like your community is disconnected, not connected, which I think many people out there listening could relate to. Why don't you become the Maven who's listening to this podcast or the connector? Who could change that and find out what the resources are? And what are the assets and start your own? How do you want to call it start your own discussion groups and find out more? It'll grow from there. I think if you put the effort in it will grow from there. Cormac, you've been a pleasure having on the inside personal growth and speaking about your new book. And thanks for spreading the word about helping to make a good life really just a good life for everybody. That's what we're that's what we're attempting to do with all this work that we're doing. Thank you so much.
Cormac Russell
Thanks, Greg.
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Inside Personal Growth with Greg Voisen · Podcast 982: The Future Is Analog: How to Create a More Human World with David SaxJoining me for this podcast is bestselling culture writer David Sax. He recently released his latest book entitled The Future Is Analog: How to Create a More Human World.
Being an award winning writer, journalist, and keynote speaker, David has been at the forefront of reporting and dissecting the intersection of business and culture for nearly two decades, including four internationally bestselling books, articles and appearances in nearly every major global news outlet, and dozens of keynote speeches to audiences around the world.
David’s latest one is The Future Is Analog: How to Create a More Human World where he lays out the case against a false digital utopia—and for a more human future. Moreover, David points out that the onset of the pandemic instantly gave us the digital universe we’d spent so long anticipating. Instant communication, online shopping, virtual everything.
Additionally, this book is a manifesto for a different kind of change; that we can spend our creativity and money on building new gadgets—or we can spend them on new ways to be together and experience the world, to bake bread, and climb mountains. All we need is the clarity to choose which future we want.
If you want to know more about David and his works, you may click here to visit his website.
I hope you enjoy my engaging interview with David Sax. Happy listening!
THE BOOK
Bestselling culture writer David Sax lays out the case against a false digital utopia—and for a more human future
In The Future Is Analog, David Sax points out that the onset of the pandemic instantly gave us the digital universe we’d spent so long anticipating. Instant communication, online shopping, virtual everything.
It didn’t take long to realize how awful it was to live in this promised future. We craved real experiences, relationships, and spaces and got back to real life as quickly and often as we could.
THE AUTHOR
David is from Toronto, Canada but has also lived in New York, Buenos Aires, Rio de Janeiro, and Montreal in the past. The first article he wrote was for the Camp Walden newspaper at 16 years old. His parents used to send him Newsweek magazine to camp. He has always been a freelancer writer then he also started selling articles and books, then more articles and books, and then talks. Today, he mostly write books and give talks about those books.
You may also refer to the transcripts below for the full transciption (not edited) of the interview.
Interview Transcipt -Not EditedEmailDownloadNew TabGreg Voisen
Hey, well, welcome back to Inside Personal Growth. This is Greg Voisen, the host of Inside Personal Growth. And we have David Sax joining us. And David has a new book out. He's joining us from Toronto, Canada. The Future is Analog: How to Create a More Human World? Well, we definitely need to do that. David. The big question is, probably most of my listeners is how, right so you know, but it's good to have you on the show. And then I'm going to tell my listeners a little bit about you, your writer, reporter speaker who specializes in business and cultures. His he's has other books out, but one is the revenge of analog was the number one post best seller. He's also been translated into six languages. He's author of three other books, save the deli, which is why a James Beard Award, the soul of an entrepreneur, and the tastemakers and as I said, he lives in Toronto. And he's a wonderful writer. That's the key. This book is easy to read a lot of great stories, opportunity for people to explore themselves, what it would be to be more analog versus more digital. Now, you know, you in the introduction is but you tell a great story about being invited to speak at a conference in Korea, about your prior book, The revenge of analog, and you were greeted by a reporter Hey, David. Hey, David, you know, they ran up to you. I remember reading that part in the but what do you think about the fourth industrial revolution, the reporter said, and you being a prior reporter, you had a little snide remark. But can you tell the story and why your passion for returning to more of a community and humanistic kind of lifestyle? I mean, it almost seems like we're ensconced in this is a world you know, and there is a way to be more human. And I'd love to know what you think.
David Sax
Yeah. So the story is kind of this random one, I was invited to speak in Seoul at this big fancy business conference. So it's like, Great, awesome, and everybody degree before you're paying me a lot of money. Great. You know, business class ticket, I'll take it awesome. Get off the flight, you know, 13 hours in the air. I'm just like, exhaust Laster to the side of my head. And my mouth smells like death. And all of a sudden, there's this TV crew running off of David tax saver. Tax. I was like, yes. You know, like, I just got out of luggage. When you're like, what do you think about the I think it was the fifth industrial revolution or fourth industrial revolution? I thought what you think about the fourth industrial revolution, I was like, what is like the convergence of AI and super sentient beings, the digital future, I was like, Oh, I don't know, I'm more interested in the analog feature, which was the reason I was brought there is to sort of talk about this. And my book was actually a big hit in Korea, which I found out the next day randomly. But it that kind of triggered this thought process that that I had, which eventually led to this book in some way. Plus the pandemic. And it was this assumption that that reporter had had really summed up that when we talk about the future, we're talking about digital. When we talk about the future, we're talking about computers, we're talking about technology, we're talking about hardware, we're talking about software, we're talking about AI, you know, this is the framework with which we have to approach the future, whether we're in business, whether we're in government, whether we're in culture, whether it's in our individual lives, the future is digital. How many times that people said, well, we live in a digital world, or we're gonna live in a digital world, right? How many times you hear that? Greg? All the time, all the time, right? And no one ever questioned that notion. No one ever says Hold on. What do you mean by that? What do you mean digital world? We're humans, right? We live on a planet that has real consequences. You know, it's a planet that we're warming very quickly. And we, we the most important thing right now is not like what our phone looks like. But it's like, how hot the water is off the coast of San Diego, where you are? And what effect is that going to have on I don't know drinking water and forest fires and our livability as a species. And yet, we've been so incredibly focused these past 25 or so years, on digital because of what it's brought us because of the changes made that the idea of a digital future was just this accepted form of reality. And then what happened was the pandemic right Back got sick somewhere in China three years ago. And, you know, chain reaction just went away the butterfly effect The Black Swan, and suddenly, you know, it's March 2020, we're all inside, living that digital future, right, we're going to school and working and socializing and doing everything in our lives, online, all of our Congress, everything, everything, all of our socializing all of our commerce, all of our culture, all of our religion, all of our everything is being done through digital devices through hardware and software. And in many ways, we're living the predicted future that has been promised to us and sold to us by Silicon Valley. For many years, you know, this was it all, you know, in the future, you're gonna be able to work from wherever and schools won't even be buildings, people learn from the best teachers everywhere on Earth. And if you want something, you'll just say it to a speaker to a thing, it'll pick it up and it'll be dropped at your door. Isn't that going to be wonderful? And then we lived through it. Right? And very quickly, we realized, this is not the future we bargained for. Or if it was like, it actually stinks. A large part of it. And so this book is really asking that question of really, okay, well, what, what did we learn about not just the limits of digital, but the values of analog of the real physical face to face spaces, relationships, interactions that we have as humans in this world? And, and what kind of a future we want to build that elevates those where they matter? Right? Yeah, and wow,
Greg Voisen
the technology has advanced us in almost every area of our life, and much of it to the positive.
David Sax
Here we are. Video call...
Greg Voisen
zoom. But the social interaction part, I get the isolation part, I understand, we're going to talk about that. Because, you know, it has done more to our psyche, as far as I'm concerned with relation to like, you and I here right now, you know, it's like, hey, we can talk to anybody across the world, I get an interview tomorrow in Dublin, Ireland, with the guy, another author, you know, it's like, it is pretty amazing to be able to capture this media, and then reshare it, give it to the world and all that. But I also understand that I missed that physical connection to sit with David and have a cup of coffee. Right? And, and really, you know, see David's reactions and, you know, listen to his emotions, and so on. And we also Well, remember this outbreak, a COVID-19. I know exactly where it was, at the time when it happened in 2018, that changes that thrust upon us. And here we are three years later, still dealing with the issues of it, you know, it isn't gone. That's for certain. But in your estimation,
David Sax
I just had it three weeks ago.
Greg Voisen
Yeah. You know, and I didn't get it. But I had a bad flu. And it was, you know, it felt like I had it. But my point, in your estimation, what is the significant impact to the digital versus analog world? And what do you mean by kind of an analog future? How do these coexist? In other words, we have kind of much of us displaced one for the other. And I think we're coming back to this balance between the two, it's almost like a homeostasis, right. It's like, okay, our body wants this homeostasis. But how do we kind of get there, David, we, we kind of feel like, okay, we're, we're, you know, let's go get Uber and have Uber Eats, and let's go, you know, instead of going to the theater, we're going to turn on Netflix, and we're going to watch a great thing on Netflix, and it's just so ingrained in us now. And I do miss that other side. And I have to admit, I'm probably one of them who's not doing as much socializing, but I should be.
David Sax
Yeah, I think the term you use their balances the great one, right? Because the promise of the digital future, and, and, and the sort of philosophical underpinning of the people who are creating it and selling it, and I say, the term Silicon Valley, I don't mean people just working in the Bay Area. You know, we're talking about anyone who's involved in sort of designing, promoting, and selling, marketing this technology as the future. And it's really based on this idea of exponential growth, right? It's Moore's law. It's like the, every 18 months, the microprocessors are going to shrink in size and doubling power and having speed and, and that's why your phone keeps getting better and better and a computer does too, but it kind of cost the same dollar amount as it did in 1980. And that allows for constant new innovations. so on, and that just keeps going up and up. And that I think was this notion of inevitability, that if this year we're doing 10% of our transactions online through online shopping, the next year, it'll be 12%. And after that, it'll be 15. After that'd be 20. And, and until we won't need stores, we won't need these things. Because this, inevitably, everything's going to sort of move in that direction. But it wasn't there yet. There was this balance, right, even people were people were doing remote work, people were using zoom, people were working remotely, but it was a smaller percentage of people, right. And that would happen was with COVID-19, we were all kind of like, dunked into this immersion in in a fully digital existence, or an almost fully digital existence in almost every aspect of our lives. And it was, in a way this test drive, if you want to call it of that digital future. But we very quickly tip that balance, where digital became the dominant force. And so we instantly saw within days, what was working for us and what wasn't with that bounce, right. And I think each individual, each company, each organization felt that differently. So work is a great example, right? Because it's really the one that's still being figured out. And for some people, it's like, this is great, I never want to go back to an office again, this works great for me, maybe the company's like, This is fabulous for us, you know, this is it, we're done with offices, terminate the leases, you know, sell off the chairs, close the boardroom, you know, send the plans home, we're good with this, and others where it was like, Well, hold on, I really missed that I want to get back to that office, like I missed my routine, I miss I miss the commute, I missed all the aspects, I missed the people, I miss the space, I missed being able to manage people and see them, whatever it is. And now what's happening, especially in work, is figuring out that homeostasis, right, is figuring out what that balance is based on our current needs. And our previous experience of the past couple of years, where, you know, that fully digital experiment was conducted. And, you know, the feeling of it was unmistakable. Like people. It was very visceral. And I think that was that was the interesting part of it.
Greg Voisen
Yeah, and I do. I know, I have a son that works at Adobe. And I've watched this gradual comeback to work three days a week kind of thing. Yeah, I've seen this happen in many of these digital economy kind of businesses, right? Obviously, the brick and mortar businesses, they've kind of always been there restaurants, hospitals, places where people have to serve others. 24/7. Right. Yeah, that's been there. But we have seen that shift back again, and it is working. It is working. He's telling me, hey, Dad, you know, it's working. We're finding this balance, again, to be able to work remotely, and also come back in and have great meetings and talk to one another and have that interaction. And it's good. So I think we're seeing that you speak about the major shift in working over 30% of American workers working from home. I'm surprised it was.
David Sax
Yeah, that was that was I think, at the height of the pandemic. Yeah. But
Greg Voisen
you know, to me, it seems like it was even more because that's, you even said in your book, you look, you only gone into an office once and it was to do some publishing something or another. You've always worked from home. I haven't always worked from home. I used to have a business with employees, and they used to come in just like you were talking about, but that's shifted has impacted our mental health. I think this is a key here. And our job level satisfaction, then the measurement that we use, at least if you're kind of like me is what are the winds? What are the winds I had today, right? And it's so difficult to measure in a digital world because it just keeps coming up on the screen. And there's always more to do your to do list keeps getting longer and bigger and more exasperated to try and finish it. So job level satisfaction went down mental health problems went up and you quoted on an Arnold, I'm sorry, Aaron Dinham, a business coach and author is saying it revealed that we do not have a good grasp on what makes work. In your estimation, what does the future of work look like? I wrote a book called wisdom, wellness and redefining work about I don't know 2012. And I remember as I was writing that book, I was investigating all of these elements. And what does the future of work life.
David Sax
I mean, I think long term, the future work probably holds a lot in common with the past work, right? Because the things that we think of his work. And we thought of his work prior to the pandemic, were very much the sort of deliverable and measurable and quantifiable tasks that we did in order to get paid or create a product or a service or sell it. Right. And so we were able to take those very quickly and easily, like we're talking days, every company did it small companies, small businesses, large corporations, nobody went bankrupt was like, I don't know, we can figure out how to move this whole business online. You know, if it was a business that Delton information and services, everyone was able to sort of do it really quickly. And yet, that sense of dissatisfaction, that sense of depression, that sense of losing ideas, of some sort of magic coming off of it, I think that's a pretty pervasive thing that's happened. And what Aaron Dignam was saying about we don't know what makes work is we, we looked at the whole some of work, like you talked about your company that you had in an office, and we're like, Okay, we have these individuals sitting in these desks in this configuration of an office, and they're doing this stuff. And this stuff is the this stuff is the GDP, it's the economic engine, it's the it's the where the money comes from. It's the it's the it's the activity, activity, the cogs that make the machine turn, right, right. And all this other stuff around them. The water cooler, the bathrooms, the building the architecture, the coffee shop downstairs, the sad office lunch, you know, cake for Susan, whose birthday it is the retirement party, the 10 minutes of chat between meetings, this is this is all superfluous wasted stuff. It's just like, extra trappings that come along with it. And now we can actually just the, you know, the promise of remote work, the promise of virtual offices, which has been around for, you know, talking 4050 years, right, yeah, paperless office, notion came out. And remote work. And telecommuting, like this is all from like, late 70s, early 80s, this sort of vision of this is like, if we cut out all that stuff, we're going to be so much more productive, people have much more time, they'll be happier, will be more focused on the task at hand. And all that other BS commuting, chit chat, office politics, blah, blah, blah, that's going to be a done by so it's gonna be it's gonna be this revolution in working. And I think in many ways that that has occurred at some organizations or people have noticed, yeah, you know, I don't have to deal with the rest of the stuff. It's much more efficient. And yet, there's a lot of that stuff that I think people actually didn't realize the value of until it was gone. Right, the value of seeing other humans outside your house, who you work with, in person on a daily basis, is actually tremendously valuable. Because what happens in those interactions, it's not like now we're having a work interaction. Now we're having a personal interaction, things bleed into one another, those relationships, build trust and confidence. And those confidence and trust is what allows ideas and thoughts and honesty to sort of flow and germinate. And that allows for new ideas for you know, shifts in strategy, whatever, that doesn't come as easily when everybody's separated online. So your son works for Adobe, it's a fabulous company. I've been there before, when I was researching one of my other books, to their offices in San Francisco. And, you know, they're very focused on getting individuals to talk and interact with each other. And do it in all sorts of different ways. Because it is a company that's based upon software for creative individuals, and they need creative ideas. And it's very hard to create that when everybody is off in their own world. And it's like, okay, I need a creative idea from you, Greg, go, right. Yeah, it doesn't happen that way, where maybe we're banging our heads against our desk, because we're trying to figure out a new, I don't know, Photoshop, application thing or whatever. And it's like, sudo, get a coffee and we go downstairs and get a coffee, we go for a walk around the block. In San Francisco, we see something, that thing gives us an idea we're having conversation, and it turns into the next great feature, or whatever it is. Right. And I think, again, you know, the future of work, I think is going to be that mix. It's going to be I really identifying the parts of work. That doesn't really matter whether you do them online or here, you know, expense reports, right. You know, skin You will linger calendars or, or something like, you know, the process oriented emails or programming, right? Like, if someone's sitting there programming and an office is, you know, doing it, like at home, maybe that like specific type of program or your code writing or whatever is, is, you know, accounting, I don't know, like all these, you know, very sort of process oriented things. But then what are the elements of it that actually aren't as quantifiable that you can't pay? Well, this contributes to the bottom line. And you know, we studied it, and this is how many hours people are working in, therefore, doesn't it? It's like that coffee break that walk the, the relationships even you know, what, what one gentleman interviewed for the book, Andres Hoff Brower called embodied cognition, which is like the awareness around ideas, and understanding of group ideas that an individual employee or worker will get simply by walking through the office every day, so that you walk by, and I see Greg's desk, and there's a sketch of something and that sketch evolves. And I see it out of the corner of my eye every day when I walk to the elevator. And all of a sudden, you go and give your presentation. And I already have an idea of it. Because I've seen it, I've seen the things you've been pinning up, I hear snippets of you talking about it when we meet up at the watercooler or whatever, right? Those things actually have a value. And sometimes it's hard to put $1 sign on them. But that's something that we have to accept, right? Because not everything is this notion of efficiency. And then
Greg Voisen
this and there is a difference, David to between the way the generations work, there's been lots of studies, right? You got the Gen Z years, Gen X, you've got, you know, all these generations in the workplace today. And, you know, the pandemic, I think, had maybe less than an impact on the younger generation, like, say Gen Z, because that's what they really like. But
David Sax
see, I'm very, very skeptical about that. Anytime someone makes a generational a sweeping generation, generational generalization, I, my ears, my, my ears go up. And I'll tell you why. Right? Because those things, maybe survey a tremendous number of people and say, Well, we did a survey of 1000 people, and this is what we found. Right? All right, we've observed this behavior. You're talking about a sweeping generalization about, I don't know, hundreds of millions of people across the globe. Right.
Greg Voisen
But I think they're talking about their values. What did what each generation values? I'm not saying we don't have common values? Sure. We do. We look, I'm 68 years old. So look, I, I've been around awhile. And I recognize that my generation has we I can see it happening. And sometimes customer service is a great example. So when I was growing up, it was like paramount. Today, you're lucky if you get any customer service kind of almost anywhere. Other than maybe Apple, I'll just put a big thing out for Apple. So yeah, exactly. My point is, is that I do believe there are some value differences. And there's been a shift in the way in which people work, we're talking about work, how we work. Look, you can look to your father even and go, he probably woke up every morning to go do something can't come home to you know, take care of the kids, your mom did the same thing. We're still seeing that. But we're seeing it done in a different way. I do believe the stressors today are actually they seem to be greater the actual stressors of living in the world today. And that brings me to a question which I don't want to skip this one, which is you have kids, and you even wrote the book about how it was to kind of tear your hair out while they were trying to learn over the internet. Right? Yeah. So we've seen the fallout of the pandemic. My wife was a school teacher for 25 years, how our digital system and the attempts to digitize learning. You state in your chapter on school, that nowhere did the utopian idea of the digital future crash harder on the rocks of analog reality than with school? I would agree with you. Can you tell us the story of Larry Cuban and what he told you about the education he said what the education really was, and what you believe the future of education should be? I think this is a big one. This is a really big one actually.
David Sax
Yeah. So you know, the promise of digital education even as an idea as an ideology predates computers, right? Thomas Edison, late 19th century, early 20th century is coming up with all sorts of inventions, among them, you know, early forms of radio, you know, the first kind of photographs and recorded Sound and film, right? And he's saying, Look, this is transformative, we are not going to need schools in the future. Because why would you have a bunch of people sitting in a room that you have to pay for and staff and shoveling snow for and do whatever, when the best minds can deliver lectures to students anywhere, at any time, students shouldn't be trapped in this sort of specific space. And that grew, you know, as digital computers evolved, especially going into the sort of 1980s and 90s, CD ROMs and the Internet and, you know, streaming video into all sorts of promises around this, right. And, you know, the One Laptop per Child initiative from Nicholas Negroponte and folks at MIT, the MOOC movement from Sebastian Thrun at Google and, and lots of brilliant folks in Silicon Valley and Stanford, were saying, Look, we're going to videotape the best lectures of the best university, they're gonna be open to everyone in this in the future, we're not gonna have university campuses, and, and giving laptops to kids giving tablets to every student in the LA school district as they did about 10 years ago. Every one of these things was a dismal failure, not like a weird, like, total, complete failure, right? The MOOC movement, the best, brightest minds, and tons of money behind it, when they rolled it out to universities, the universities, California college system, in a couple of sort of pilot projects was like 10% of people finished the course 10%, could you imagine a university course where 10% of people finished it, that professor would be fired immediately, and the department would be shut down, right? So, you know, still 10s if not hundreds of billion dollars be invested in ed tech, a lot of it, not all of it, but a lot of it with the promise of like, schools are at an institution that's obsolete and need to be disrupted. This is ridiculous that we put all these people sitting in this chair, staring at this person online. This isn't how we should learn, right? And then along comes the pandemic and every single student in the world, except for some in New Zealand, kindergarten all the way to grad school are doing this for their school in right platforms, you know, best most, you know, highly funded private schools, Harvard, MIT, Oxford, the Tsar bone, the fanciest private high school and elementary school and the richest parts of the richest countries of the world. And, of course, all the public schools, right, you know, with their varying levels of, of lower funding everywhere, and everywhere was a feeling. Right? Like students, students, you know, comprehension went down, their marks weren't down, their learning went down, their antisocial behaviors went up, rise of depression, Rise of, of a lack of motivation, and I saw it with my own kids who were in kindergarten and second grade. I mean, it was just dismal to watch. Yeah, how unmotivated, how bored how they learn specific things. They learned facts my son learned to read in that time, mostly by reading books at here, but you know, his teachers did their best, but it was, it was clearly not a success. And so, to get to Larry Cuban, Larry Cuban is a professor at Stanford who studies the history of education technology. And he began as a booster of ad tech in the early 80s, but quickly saw.
David Sax
So Larry Cuban is a professor at Stanford University who studies digital technology in education and the history and sort of reality of it. He began in the 80s, being a booster of ad tech, but very quickly saw the limitations of that, when it put was put into practice. And he explained to me in in the most wonderfully clear way, what what's going on, he said that digital technology just like film, and sound as Edison didn't even print is it is a tremendous vehicle for the delivery of information, right? Information, which we think is the core of education, learning, one plus one, learning how to read learning, comprehension, learning, science, learning all these different things. It's the information. But he said an education isn't information, right? Education is fundamentally a human relationship between the teacher and their students, between students each other, between the students in the school and the community surrounding it, whether we're talking about an elementary school in your neighborhood or university campus, and in the city, in the state where it's in, and its alumni network, you know, go beavers, or whatever. And, and he said, and that human relationship is actually what allows for learning. Because when you think back to the best teachers you've ever had, and I'm challenging to name one right now, who's one of the best teachers you ever had Greg,
Greg Voisen
a guy in high school, Dr. Or no doctor. He taught me environmental sciences. I can't remember his name, but I was really fascinated by the subject.
David Sax
Right. But was it the facts he taught you? Or was it how he taught?
Greg Voisen
No, it was, I think it was my curiosity about the topic, I was extremely curious and still happen to this day. I mean, we're talking High School to 68 years old, just like you were speaking about earlier, the aggregation of, you know, co2 emissions and water and everything. And I've been a big advocate of that. So I think it was the fact that he was teaching something that I went into a course and I was like, wow, I just wanted to just, I have this insatiable curiosity about.
David Sax
But that's it, right? People remember who the teacher is they remember the sub Mr. Alexander, but you may not remember the specific facts that Mr. Alexander, right. And those facts are available to you. But I'm sure the way he taught and the relationship he built with his class, or at least with you was, you know, the core of what that was. And what Larry Cuban says is, this is a tremendous medium, for transmitting information, you want to learn about climate change, and the planetary sciences and Environmental Sciences, you know, go to Google, go to YouTube, go look online, you can find un papers, animations for kids, you know, everything you want, interactive, things are whatever. But in order to remake, you truly care about that, and turn that information into knowledge requires that relationship. And that is cut off when you do this, right. When you remove students from the class, when you remove teachers from that personal relationship, and they're just delivery, delivery mechanisms for information. That's the difference. And that's why it failed. And so when you think about the future of education, it's not more tech in the classroom, it's less tech in the classroom, or if there's tech, the tech is either there to learn specifically about the technology like computer science, for example, or for coding or any sort of STEM type subject that will use computers as a tool, or it's in the background. Right. It's they're working with the administration, it's helping the future plan their lesson, but it doesn't get in the way. And some of the most interesting school and most successful school systems in the world, like the Finnish education system, they have very little tech, they have very little standardized testing, right? It's actually more about engaging as much as possible with the student on a human level, to get them curious and interested in learning that makes those systems successful, where the American system is almost entirely based on sort of a quantifiable measure of information retention and success, which is you know, the
Greg Voisen
the take the LSAT, or take the various Yeah, crazy
David Sax
focus on standardized testing, which is delivered like mediocre results, America ranks in the middle of worlds, you know, global measures of, of how well it educates its population.
Greg Voisen
Well, I think the studies that have substantiated what you're talking about Larry Cuban, you know, as I was speaking with Dan Bitner the guy that wrote the Blue Zones book, right, so Dan was on here about a week ago and got any of these demographers went around, studied where people lived over 100 years old. We just got into this discussion. about apps, changing behavior, and an app on the phone, right changing a behavior, billions of dollars put into apps. And he said, you know, what we found is the rate of retention there is so low that after seven months of years, no one's using those apps anymore to actually track their weight or track the food they're eating or make a substantial change there, right? This is about education, right? One on One education one on one, he said, but when you change the environment, in which the people live, that's when you can have a change. So they go into a city, they change the laws, they say, Hey, look, we're going to serve better food, we're going to have bicycle paths, we're going to do whatever we need. And he's actually been able to lower the BMI from three to 4%, and a whole city, full cities, right? I loved his approach, because what he's saying is, look, when you change our options in the environment, right, it's like a school, right? Being in a school, the school, the environment of the school, to me when I was going to school was as big a part of anything, versus being stuck in my bedroom in front of a screen, right? That isn't the most appropriate environment. Okay. So I loved in college, going from classroom to classroom learning from Professor to professor, interacting with kids over lunch and doing whatever I mean, let's face it, that's
David Sax
college. That's not the stuff you learn, right? Like wearing their Yale sweater, because they're like, well, actually, I learned these facts that, like, these are the people I met. These are the relationships I built, right. This is why I paid, you know, fought to get in and paid so much money to build these relationships and immerse myself in this physical analog environment in order to learn in this place, right. So I could wear this sweater while I'm jogging, Central Park, or whatever.
Greg Voisen
Well, I want to be sensitive to your time, and I have lots more questions. But I do want to let my listeners know that this book touches every day is Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday. And I think one of the most important ones that you speak about, really is Sunday. And I'll tell you why. Because you're speaking about something that's this integration of the soul and some spirituality. And you start your Sunday thing off, I thought it was quite funny about you putting on your wetsuit to go surfing, who the hell goes surfing in Toronto, and the freezing cold but I guess you do have to be really like, quite ridiculous to want to go out. But me. Maybe you're learning cold baths. I love that because it maybe you're going to extend your lifespan? Can you tell the listeners a story and getting out in nature as to how nurturing that is for our souls, regardless of the weather conditions or any other excuses we might make up to deter our adventure into the wilderness because to me, that is really, for me, that's my reconnection everything is going into riding my bike or going down to the beach or walking in the woods or doing anything. And I think that's part of what this world needs more.
David Sax
Yeah, there's a wonderful gentleman that I talked to for the book, Richard loove, who is a San Diegan I know, wrote, you know, Last Child in the Woods is really a figurehead in American life for reconnecting ourselves with nature. Yeah, and I think this is something that everyone during the course of the pandemic suddenly discovered, right? Because you are now you know, kind of like a child free to sit inside and eat all the crap you want all the candy, you want all the bread, all the pastry, you know, go drink and you know, take all the weed gummies you want and you can watch as much Netflix as you want. There's nowhere to go anymore, like just sit inside and like binge whatever show you wanted. And I think within a few days or weeks, most people like our attic, I gotta I gotta get out of here. And people would walk like you would go in cities towns everywhere. People were just walking you go on hiking trails and they were packed bike sales went through the roof. They you know, they sold out bikes they sold out of bikes worldwide. Yeah. I've two friends who own bike stores. It's the only reason why children on bicycles. You know, everything was just anything that was outdoors was in such high demand. Even here in Toronto, where people surf the worst possible waves in the worst possible weather. You no subzero temperatures, wind wave slop, dirty water, like the surf store was selling out of waves in wetsuits.
Greg Voisen
Said you surf for any at a condom float Wow, that was
David Sax
that was Yeah. I had that happened in California to thank you for at least having safe sex. But you know, it, it showed that yearning for something beyond our screens that this isn't sufficient for the body and for the soul. And you know, I had a wonderful week last week, I was on book tour in the West Coast of the US. So, you know, I found myself on the first day in San Francisco, and it really had nothing to do till my event that night. And I love San Francisco, and it was a beautiful, like blue, blue sky day. And I like when I rented an E bike, you know, and went along the water and then hiked all these paths all along, pass the Golden Gate Bridge all the way to Sunset Beach. Like the cliffs above looking at the ocean, it was just, it was so wonderful. It was like, all I needed. And I was so content, and so happy. And then the next day in Portland, and I came in from Seattle, Seattle was pouring, pouring rain, miserable, pouring rain. But Seattle, the rain had just ended. And I walked through the forest there in Washington Park, and like, just covered in pine needles and feeling so alive and the smell of all of that. And then the last day I was in LA, and in LA, it was raining for the first time in six months. But my friend and I went on a hike in in, you know, just outside Malibu, in a canyon, and we were covered in mud. And it was like, it was great. It was amazing. It was such a wonderful thing. And why it's like, this is something we need. And I think we've realized that right? This is like a fundamental human need that we can't replace with a peloton bike and like a simulation of morality through the world. Right. And I think this is that that soul aspect where it's like, you know, church services, synagogue services, mosque services, you know, Buddhist meditations, transcendental California and yoga, like all of that went online, you could zoom, you could you could sign up, you can stream every class, audio, video, virtual reality, whatever. It's just, it's insufficient. People wanted to go back to those places, and sit in uncomfortable positions in order to be connected to something bigger than themselves. And that's connected with the people with them, and connected to the person who's delivering the sermon or talk or service or experience. And that sense that you're part of something bigger, right?
Greg Voisen
Yeah, no, it is important. The community, you talk about it in the book, and those everything. That's everything. Yes. Like, I was like you I was brought up Jewish, but I didn't like, keep that. I'm a member of self-realization fellowship here in Encinitas, right. And that temple was shut down for two years, literally two years, including the meditation grounds, which are beautiful right on the beach in Encinitas. And I was like, wow, these guys are so conservative. Why don't they let us go outdoors, because these are outside meditation gardens. And, and yet, they were still closed, you couldn't get into him? That was like, to me, it was like, just ridiculous. So I started on my own meditation gardens, right. So we find ways to make up for it. I'm gonna make this last question. Because you know, timing. Your book is a place for our readers and our listeners to question how they're living their lives, and provides new perspectives about an analog approach to living. What reflection would you like to leave listeners with about the future is analog? If you were to leave them with one or two things? What would you advise them? What might you encourage them to think about or to do?
David Sax
That's a great question. I would, you know, went through a very traumatic time, the past couple of years pandemic. And certainly, you know, nobody's yearning to go back there. And so there's this desire to kind of move on, right. But I think we actually went through something really valuable, which is that we all got to live this experiment in this promise digital future that is still being sold to us and pitched to us by people like Mark Zuckerberg, and his metaverse. Virtual Reality sort of fantasyland. And businesses are still trying to sell us on this. And, and, and I think, whenever someone tells you something about the future, we now have this gauge that we can sort of look back and say, Hey, was my What was that part of my life better when it was all digital? And what did I realize about the things that are analog, that are physical, that are tactile, that are human, that are sort of paternal? Right? Like going for a hike or going surfing or meditating? Or you know that I actually really value? And so if we're able to realize the parts that humanize us, the mouse and make those a core value of what we do. Then when any new technology comes along, we can we can judge that technology against it. And we could say, Is this going to elevate my human experience? Is it going to make me more connected to others to myself, to my coworkers to the world around me? Or is this actually competing with it? Is this trying to disrupt it and take it away? And I think we'll know, in our own lives, where we fall with that, and we can make conscious decisions about which technology to adapt, and which technology to, you know, say, No, thanks, Mark. I'm good. I'm good with reality.
Greg Voisen
Well, David, it's been a pleasure having you on Inside Personal Growth. And I think and to conclude this, from my perspective, after having read the book, and I want to all the readers to go out and get a copy, the future is analog. The other thing is go to David Sax, s-a-x.com. You can learn more about David there that book, his other books. One thing that I think that I took away from it, is, if you look at all the days, Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, say that you kind of used as a stepping off point to write about commerce, and to write about education, and to write about these various things was when you kind of pull it all together. The humanistic side of being much more compassionate, loving to ourselves and to others is, is truly at the essence of, you know, we need to be more kind to others and ourselves. Right? The digital world sometimes doesn't look at kindness and compassion, it looks at productivity, and how do you generate the next thing so that you can make some more money, right or monetization, right? And our world, meaning this Western world has embraced it so heavily. And it's such a bias, that breaking that bias that we have is tough, I get that for all my listeners out there who are on the path, like I said, try and find some balance, we're not going to get rid of the digital world altogether. But we could bring in more of this humanistic side, which you said, there's more of this community support side this more support. I know my nonprofit that the author support, I go out and give away $100 gift cards to people that are out on the streets that are homeless. Right. And, and I think the most important thing here is this. You can have you can coexist in both of these worlds. And you can do it with more peace, compassion and harmony for yourself and for others. And that if that's all you take away from this book, that's the greatest thing you could take away from
David Sax
a man. That's fabulous. Yes, yeah. I'm gonna namaste to that.
Greg Voisen
Okay, well, no, I'm gonna say to you, my friend, have a good next podcast. I appreciate you. Sorry for a few technical difficulties, but thanks for being on the show
David Sax
at the analog reality that is thank you crack this. Pleasure. All right. Take care!
Greg Voisen
Thanks, David. Bye
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Inside Personal Growth with Greg Voisen · Podcast 981: Unleash Your Complexity Genius with Jennifer Garvey BergerMy guest for this podcast is Cultivating Leadership‘s CEO and founding partner Jennifer Garvey Berger. She recently released her new book co-authored by Carolyn Coughlin entitled Unleash Your Complexity Genius: Growing Your Inner Capacity to Lead (The Stanford Briefs).
Jennifer believes that leadership is one of the most vital renewable resources in the world. Hence, she designs and teaches leadership programs, coaches senior teams, and supports new ways of thinking about strategy and people with clients facing these dramatic shifts in complexity, volatility, and change in their workplaces and markets. Her clients include Google, Microsoft, Novartis, Wikipedia, and Oxfam International.
With much skills and experiences, Jennifer also has written several books about leadership and just last August, she, along with co-author Carolyn Coughlin, released her latest one entitled Unleash Your Complexity Genius: Growing Your Inner Capacity to Lead (The Stanford Briefs). This book offers a set of practices that help you not only understand complexity but actually hack into your own nervous system to bring your natural capacities back online. By paying close attention to your body, redefining your emotional experiences, and connecting more deeply to others, you can transform the anxiety, exhaustion, and overwhelm that complexity creates.
If you’re interested and want to know more about Jennifer, you may click here to visit her company website.
I hope you enjoy my engaging interview with Jennifer Garvey Berger. Happy listening!
THE BOOK
There is a complexity paradox that we all need to understand. We humans have a natural inclination towards connection, engagement, and creativity – all necessary skills to thrive in complexity. The problem is that the stress caused by uncertainty and ambiguity makes it difficult to tap into this inclination when we need it the most. Unleash Your Complexity Genius offers a set of practices that help you not only understand complexity but actually hack into your own nervous system to bring your natural capacities back online. By paying close attention to your body, redefining your emotional experiences, and connecting more deeply to others, you can transform the anxiety, exhaustion, and overwhelm that complexity creates. Better still, as you unleash your natural complexity genius, you create the conditions for those around you to flourish in an uncertain world.
THE AUTHOR
Jennifer believes that leadership is one of the most vital renewable resources in the world. In this topsy-turvy time, when uncertainty, complexity, and ambiguity are raging, we need a new form of leadership for a new era. She designs and teaches leadership programs, coaches senior teams, and supports new ways of thinking about strategy and people. Jennifer also supports executives one-on-one as a leadership coach. She supports clients to find their current growing edge and then make choices about how they want to develop. She teaches coaches around the world transformational and developmental coaching approaches in her Growth Edge Coaching certification series.
You may also refer to the transcripts below for the full transciption (not edited) of the interview.
Interview Transcipt -Not EditedEmailDownloadNew TabGreg Voisen
Well welcome back to Inside Personal Growth. This is Greg Voisen, the host, and Jennifer Garvey Berger is on the other end of the line all the way in France. And we're going to be talking about a book that she has authored. She's authored many. Unleash Your Complexity Genius: Growing Your Inner Capacity to Lead. And Carolyn Coghlan was her co-author on this as well, I want to make sure that she gets a shout out from us as well. Good evening to you, I'll say because for you it is in here. It's bright in the morning. How are you doing juniper?
Jennifer Garvey Berger
Doing great. Thanks for having me.
Greg Voisen
Well, it's a pleasure to have you on the show, it's always good to have authors that are talking about something that's very current. And this one is definitely something that's very current and that people, you know, need to know more about. And I'm gonna let them know a little bit about you, Jennifer. She believes that leadership is one of the most vital renewable resources in the world. In this topsy turvy time, when uncertainty, complexity and ambiguity are raging, we need a new form of leadership for new air. While it might be in the natural to experience the swirling currents of change, as threatening force to be survived and inconvenience, to be managed, those who lead us into the future see complexity as the natural state of the world. And that's what Jennifer does a good job of speaking about. She designs and teaches Leadership Program coaches, senior teams, support news ways of thinking, you as I said, we're going to be speaking about this book. And we also have another book that I'm gonna mention is Well, Jennifer supports executives, one on one leadership coaching over the decades, she's developed growth edge coaching approach supports clients to find their current growing edge and make choices about how they want to develop, well, you have a wonderful background. And for those of you who want to learn more, just go to cultivating leadership.com, that's cultivating leadership.com, we'll put a link to that in the blog as well. So Jennifer, let's just kind of start this off, you know, at the website. So for my listeners, please go to the website, because there's a huge team of people that are consulting and coaching leaders. And you state that you help organizations thrive and complexity and your kind of bag has been to steady complexity, you know, and how it works. This obviously comes down to the individual within the culture of the organization, knowing what to do to make things better during complex times for themselves and for the culture of the organization. You stated in the introduction of the book, that complexity tends to trigger us and makes us anxious and afraid. And that's the, for me right now kind of the key in the world is this anxiousness. The prevalence of fear that normally doesn't lead us anyplace good. Now, let's face it, given the complex times we live in now, and how did you help individuals better cope and respond to challenging times like we're living in, especially leaders inside of companies?
Jennifer Garvey Berger
Yeah, I mean, this, this point, you're making that fear doesn't tend to lead us to very helpful places are super important, right? Yeah. And, and very often, people don't even notice that they're afraid, right? They noticed they have to do things, they noticed that they're kind of maybe stressed that they're talking faster or moving faster than they usually do, or whatever. But this kind of low level of fear that comes from our nervous system, they don't so much pay attention to right as fear or even discomfort, they just feel it as busyness. And so the first thing we have leaders do is notice, because you can't really change anything until you begin to notice where you are. And so the first way we help leaders is to get a handle on what's going on for me right now. What's going on for us right now, what is the challenge that we're facing? What is our habit about handling a challenge like that? And what new tools might we have that might be more useful? Give them given where we are,
Greg Voisen
yeah, and the tools, we're gonna get into them, the gyms that you have created in this book, but you know, it's the makeup of our bodies, you know, the way the brain works, the amygdala, the way that we're connected and wires wired. For centuries and centuries, you know, I've talked to social biologists about this, it's almost like, we wait to the last minute, before we actually do something about something, right? It has to get to this point, of almost catastrophic, and sometimes it's as individuals and companies, right? companies realize that, okay, we're losing money every month in and month out, month in and month out, but we haven't cut the team. So just like what, you know, the Facebook guy did pardon me, I can't remember his name right now. But, you know, he lays off 11,000 people, all of a sudden, like, boom, here's 11,000 People go, we see moves like that happening, you know, inside corporations, and you're wondering, well, you knew this was rubbing up to this, you know, it's like, all of a sudden, you're gonna make a move like that. And those decisions, so that's really about making better decisions. We don't have a tendency to have that DNA kind of wired into us or doing.
Jennifer Garvey Berger
Know, we are, in the last couple of books I've written, I've been exploring the ways our, our neurobiology handles complexity. And the thing that I've found in, in studies from, you know, just across neurology, neuroscience, psychology, behavioral economics, in an all these different fields, what you see is that the human system was designed has evolved to basically ignore or fight against or be completely stressed out by complexity, right? And you can see that from most of our history, that was probably a good idea. Does that tendency help us make complex business decisions? It does not. It is not, it is not a gift to us, it is incredible. If what we need to do is run or fight our way out of a challenge. Boom, we are deciding whether to lay off people when we are deciding what new strategy to take on when we are trying to come to terms with something we've done that has been problematic in some powerful way. When we're wrestling with social issues, you know, all these things actually activate our anxious nervous system, our sympathetic nervous system, our activation system, and that doesn't do a great job at making the kinds of complex decisions you're talking about.
Greg Voisen
Yeah, your, you know, your research, the research, you've read and studied, I'd say every time it follows that course. In other words, it's that's the outcome is that it's not that great. And I and I was just recently on with Dan Bittner, the guy that wrote the blue zones, and he has a new book out the American Blue Zones cookbook, and you know, we got to talking about applications to change behavior. And he said, he said, I don't want this to be a buzzkill. But the research shows that no matter what app you put on your phone to meditate with or to, or to change your diet or to whatever. We see a precipitous decline at seven months, meaning around seven months, is the time when people drop off these things, yet their phones are loaded with them. And I said, Well, that's really interesting, Dan, and he said, Yeah, but the flip side is, if you change the environment, in which people, so like you, you went to France look at it, things are a little slower. People have bike paths. They're eating healthier. They're eating organic. No, he said, so we lower the BMI in a city by 3% by coming in and changing the environment, not by filling their funds with apps that you've got to do this, or you're gonna get 10,000 steps or you're gonna do whatever you're going to do. And I thought the approach was in it was kind of an eye opener for me, you know, to say, we've got to do this at a much higher level at a governmental level. We've got to change these things in the world. Before we as Human beings are going to kind of follow the path. You know what I mean? Any comment on that? Because that's, you know, inside of a corporation, it's almost the same thing. It's its own biosphere, right? It's its own culture. And I guess if you're not changing the environment, maybe a lot of times what you're doing is you're wasting a lot of time.
Jennifer Garvey Berger
Yeah, I think this, this question about at what level does change happen? People have these different theories, you know, like people have a theory that changes all individual or changes about willpower, or changes about intelligence, or changes about motivation or changes about you know, like, there are all these theories, if we can just provide willpower, intelligence, motivation, apps, whatever it might be, people will change. But as you say, Change is a complex and interactive process, that has something to do with culture that has something to do with environment that has something to do with identity that has something to do with psychology that has something to do with biology. And I just don't think we're ever going to find the one size fits all way to make change happen. So
Greg Voisen
well, in his case, it was demographers that studied regions to find out where people lived over 100 years old, right? Everybody knows that. But the point of it is, is that they found commonalities, obviously, in this community, strong sense of community, a different diet, and 90%, plant based, mostly organic, you know, so if you follow the list down, you sit there and you go, wow, that's, that's really supporting me, because that's all I can get. Right? So that's, that's what I'm going to eat, I'm going to walk I'm going to do these things. You know, you've authored so many books, such as unlocking leadership, mind traps, changing on the job, simple habits for complex times. And most of the books are about thriving in complexity or making life simpler. Now, you've chosen to have a simpler life by moving where you've moved, you're living in the southern part of France. A much simpler lifestyle, not everybody has. Well, I wouldn't say they don't have the choice. They haven't made that choice. What is it about the way complex systems work? That is so counterintuitive for us to comprehend, because you're steady your body of work as an individual, and I don't know how you got here. But you're really interested in how we can figure out how to work with complexity, you know, and how it can be our friend versus being our foe?
Jennifer Garvey Berger
Yeah, that's exactly right. This is exactly right. So when you talk about context, I have moved to the southwest of France. But I bought a house with 10 friends, and we live in community here. So I'm not sure that I simplified that much to be honest. When you have to make a, you know, a decision by committee for everything, it's not necessarily a simpler life, but it is a very interesting and, and, you know, a life filled with growth and laughter. Yeah. And I think that the, I think the thing is, our body automatically tells us that complexity is kind of wrong or bad or scary. Then our organizations reinforced this by saying your job as a manager is to control things, and to predict the future and to deliver on the future that you predicted. Right? And it reinforces that trend, that complexity is our enemy in some way. Actually, complexity is just it’s a life force. You know, it is a piece of what it is to be alive and mortal, and interdependent with the land and the other humans and the atmosphere. You know, this is just. And I think we can think about it as, you know, a force that's threatening and dangerous and we need to kind of segmented as much as we can get it out of here as much as we can. But I think this is always a losing battle, and particularly as the complexity of the world just advances and advances and advances. I think if we looked at complexity as off force that we could understand harness play with I surrender to make use of, I think we would have a really different relationship to what it means to be human and alive right now. And it, I think it would be a more helpful relationship. And I think we would potentially be able to solve bigger problems.
Greg Voisen
Agreed. And I'm not saying that everybody is running from complexity, but what I would say is they need and we're going to talk about it better ways to be in relationship with it. You know, there's a, I think, this is my humble opinion, opinion, you're kind of going through life, and you don't feel like you want to have more complexity, just like you said, moved in with all these people. And it hasn't been really more simple. But you've had this wonderful experience of community, right? So there's some tradeoffs there, maybe it did get a little more complex, but the whole support structure, and that's something that I think your research probably ferrets out that, you know, if I do get in a complex situation, and I have a lot of community of support, people around me, the other managers, the, you know, the upper line people to help me through it. It's so much easier. And you speak in the book about the difference between complicated versus complex challenges. And I thought this was really interesting part, can you speak with the listeners about the differences and why complex challenges are much more difficult to solve? or predict?
Jennifer Garvey Berger
Yeah. So this distinction comes from a variety of places, the teacher I study most, this distinction is Dave Snowden, who's a complexity theorist. And the, this isn't a distinction between two kinds of systems that are predictable, that run the same way every time. And systems that are not predictable. In complicated challenges, you have something that's tricky, it's hard. And yet, with the right expertise, the right experience, the right education, you can figure it out complex, complicated challenge is, you know something as daily as having a car that works to get you to where you need to be something as innovative as creating a rocket to the moon, or SpaceX or whatever it might be. But all of these are kind of engineering problems, you can break the problem apart into segments, you can hand the segments to different experts, and then you can kind of reassemble something that ought to work well, in this case and across contexts. Complexity is not like that. Complexity is a kind of entangled mass, where things actually change what's going on right now in such a way that you can't imagine what's going to happen next. You know, traffic is a complex system, it seems like everybody should be driving, kind of at the same speed and in the same place. But suddenly, traffic snarls in reasons that you can't really understand, you can't really predict, you can't necessarily know that they're going to snarl that way. Again, we're finding that who gets COVID is a complex challenge how COVID operates in our body is a complex challenge. There are patterns, some people get very sick, many people don't get sick. If you're immunized, it has one feature or another. But it's not predictable. You can't know if you're one of the ones that's going to be in this category or that one or that one. And that's because there are so many features at play. Where did you get it? How were you exposed? What time of day? Was it? How rundown was your body? How strong is your immune system? When were you last exposed? All these questions. And these questions kind of interact with each other to mean that while you can study patterns across a population, you can never predict any one particular thing. And, as you say, solving a complicated challenge. We know how to do that humans have gotten incredibly great at doing this. Getting the right kind of studies the right kind of understanding, though, right humans to or computers to parse apart the information and then put it back together into some excellent solution. complexity will always be unpredictable, but it's definitionally unpredictable. And we will always need another path to addressing complex challenges than we have to Addressing complicated ones.
Greg Voisen
Yeah, just the whole complexity theory. And, you know, you talked about Snowden, he mentioned the book, you actually mentioned his book in your book. You know, I have friends that actually do this, this is, you know, this is their fun is study complexity, you know, a gentleman wrote a book called Open boundaries, where, when we're in these systems, like working at a big corporation, which has all these moving parts and pieces, and no matter where you are in that, in, in that big matrix, right, it does get daunting. And so you stay, that uncertainty wreaks havoc on our systems, financial, political, social, but the first stress system that a leader must deal with is their own nervous system. And I would agree, because, you know, being able to keep our composure, during challenging times and stress, I happened to be, you know, an advocate of the Eastern theory and meditation, and most of my listeners are, and they understand, and mindfulness practices and, you know, all kinds of things. What does complexity do to us inside? And how can we better understand how to cope with it better? I think that's the key, you know, I'm, I'm headed back to go meet Richie Davidson, the guy who did all the studies with the monks and studying how their brains work under meditation at the University of Wisconsin, and I feel so honored to actually go do that. But the reality is, that's not everybody. You know, as a matter of fact, it's a very small segment that's able to actually take this thing called meditation, and actually make it a regular practice that makes them better able to cope with life. Yeah,
Jennifer Garvey Berger
so this question about how is it we can engage notice and engage with our own nervous systems? This is what meditation is all about, right? How do I engage with my own nervous system, my whole thought system as a system that I can kind of look into I am it and I can also see it. This is one of the keys to being able to handle complexity gracefully, I think and to be able to use it as a, as a force to play with is that we have to see what it does to us. And then we have to have a relationship to that. That means we can say, well, I'd like to change this like to I'd like to change something about this in this moment. I wonder what I could do to make that possible. Otherwise, we are very often traveling through our lives as passengers on the river have complexity, and not actually steering very much.
Greg Voisen
That's so true. And you know, I think what happens is, if people can learn mindfulness meditation practices, it makes it so much easier. You stated that one of the core paradoxes of complex system is that a lot of effort can have little or no impact. I think that's worth repeating. Because most people think a lot of effort will have huge impact. And that's a conundrum for most people, because they're used to efforting a lot to get something done with their, whatever the goal is, right? Speak with the listeners, if you're worried about slow, going slow to go fast, a concept that April Rennie talks about to in her book called Flux, who was just on here and some of the benefits of this strategy.
Jennifer Garvey Berger
You This is one of the I mean, it's one of the incredibly frustrating things about complexity, right as anybody who's tried to, you know, do a culture change initiative or launch a new product that you were sure was going to be spectacular. That's not actually spectacular in the marketplace, or whatever it is, whenever we want, or build trust in a team, and is put a lot of effort into building trust in a team. All of these are emergent phenomena of complex systems. And the bad news is it's not a put one unit in get one unit out kind of an exchange in complexity. The good news is it's not a put one unit in get one unit out kind of exchange in complexity, right. So this thing gives as it takes away. So the question is, I think, for certainly for me is what are the many small experiments we can try, that might have this incredibly outsized impact? While you know, not costing that much, instead of doing as you say, efforting, to try and force a system to do a particular thing, which, in a complex system often has a kind of perverse fighting back effect. And so this, this
Greg Voisen
was about, pardon me for interrupting you. But what about you, you just mentioned 15 minutes earlier that, you know, your managers are expecting you to get something done. So you have this pressure, let's just call it and it's, it's real pressure. There, the managers or the upper management is not saying, Well, you can go ahead and wallow with this problem. Which if you did wallow, you probably make a better decision. Okay. They're saying we want you to get something done. Right. In other words, we need something to happen a lot of times, they don't even know what it is that they think should happen. But they have this expectation of you. Right? It's like the expectation of the outcome, you talked about it in the book, that is one of the challenges at any level in an organization, be it that it's there. You know, if you look at the blue Buddhist philosophy, it's like, don't get attached to the expectation of the outcome. Right. But that seems to be a hard one for corporations to kind of like uptake, put it into their pipe and smoke it and say, this is the way we're running today. So what advice would you have for the people that are in the ranks and files that are listening to this, or they're at the upper management level, and they're the ones directing the people in the rank and file to do things that maybe actually wallowing would be a better option?
Jennifer Garvey Berger
Well, I think anybody who's, you know, who, who faces a lot of responsibilities and a really busy job, and then they go away on vacation, and they actually don't look at their email. And then they come back to whatever, 20 million emails, right. And as they go through them, they see problems arise and fall, arise and fall, they see problems come and, and somehow fade away, like over the course of their work kind of study of their inbox. I've had so many leaders come to me and say, you know, Jennifer, when I am away, my people solve things that when I'm there, I think they absolutely need me for. And so this is a piece of the of the challenge is our action urge to do something often injects us in a way that expands our energy without actually adding very much value. And so this idea of going too slow to go fast. First, has us pause and see what's actually going on? How much am I motivated by my own anxiety? How much am I motivated by my reflexes? And how much am I actually able to put my hands around this challenge? And then, you know, the, the approach we tend to teach is about experimentation. How can you make small experiments and learn. And we have leaders and organizations all over the world who are trying to take this more experimental approach where they try multiple small things, and then learn from what the system does with those multiple small things. We hadn't. We had one organization we worked with that were was trying to have a culture change, where the organization was quite siloed, as many organizations are, and they were trying to break down some of those silos. Excuse me, and did in order to do it, they were having programs and they were having, you know, all kinds of initiatives, all kinds of all kinds of stuff was going on, there was quite a lot of a lot of push in the organization. And they were now learning about experiments and complexity. And so they were playing around with this fundamental question, what kind of stories are people telling right now? And what kinds of stories would I like them to tell more of and what kinds of stories that I liked to tell fewer of, and then we're hearing that a lot of the stories people were telling were about how those people over there were idiots. Annoying, money grubbing, self-centered, what, uh, what you know that whatever negative stories we imagine about people who are in a different silo from us, and they had these stories mutually going back and forth. And one of the experiments was, okay, I'll give you 100 bucks to go out to dinner. With one of those folks, I'll pay for dinner for both of you, or lunch, you choose the meal, I'll pay for it, you go out to dinner, I don't care what happens, just try that. And they invested like, whatever, four months and three grand in this experiment. And most people didn't take them up on it. Most people are like, I want to have dinner with him, even if you're gonna give me a nice meal. But some people did. And those some people started to like each other better started to collaborate more started to talk about work more started to tell each other Oh, no, you, I think you've got that wrong about those folks. I'm, I've been out to dinner with a bunch of those folks, I spend time with them. I, you know, I saw problems with them. And suddenly this, the culture started to shift in this $3,000 experiment of take some somebody you don't like out to dinner? And didn't have to work that way? No, they were trying other things too, at the same time. And those other things probably had some kind of an impact, too. The question is, can you find these small, relatively low investment attempts, and then learn from them and see how the system changes?
Greg Voisen
Yeah, it's almost like a, I don't wanna say you, you bring the light, where there's darkness in there, right? Because of the way somebody may think about someone, but then you start the light starts to shine brighter and brighter and brighter. You know, the darkness says serve the light. So what is interesting, and I remember this comment, and it kind of goes along with it. The people of diversity that you're asking them to interact with, the other people are saying, well, I don't like them or whatever, because they're different. I remember Steven Kotler has been on the show about six times talking about hacking flow, and the creativity inside of organizations and creativity and innovation in general. He said, Well, if you want to be innovative, his comment to me was, once you read something different. And I was like, well, he says, Well, you know, I read Architectural Digest, people wouldn't think that I would read Architectural Digest, he said, but the reality is the fact that you've stimulated your brain by pushing it to read something that you, you know, you're normally commonly understand, it's almost like going to dinner with someone different, right? You're saying, wow, this person is a magician, musician. I don't like musicians. I'm like, whatever, you know, but I'm gonna go anyway, because I'm gonna go with an open mind and learn this. The same thing with reading Architectural Digest, he said, what happens is it breaks the code and your creativity emerges, your innovation emerges, you become more engaged. And I thought, it's a great way for people to do that. So just like you said, you know, go spend 100 bucks and go to dinner with somebody that you don't maybe care pick that's in some other silo inside the company, or read something different or force yourself to do something different. Because it is going to have you help you solve problems differently as well. And you know, you introduce something called, these are the gyms, genius engagement moves, which allows us to become aware of what is happening in our nervous system and begin to make intentional shifts. Can you speak with the listeners about the gyms there's a lot of them in the book. So I will, I will say, we'll apply some of them maybe the most important ones here that you would like to talk about. You have many so what Just pick that the most successfully used with an impact on our nervous system and dealing with complexity. So one of them, I would think, humbly, is just before you're taking action, take a breath. You know, just take a big deep breath in. And wait, don't just react, you know, because that's, we have a tendency to do that, we want to find a solution quickly. So we're just boom, we're gonna say something, put our foot in our mouth. Any others that you want to give us that we that the listeners could apply and apply immediately? Let's say they're working in a corporation today, and they're going, Wow, I could really use what you guys are talking about.
Jennifer Garvey Berger
Yeah, so one of my favorite is to see whether there can be more laughter in your life. So one of the complexity geniuses, one of the things that makes us great at complexity is laughter. It's great for our body, it's great for our connections, it's actually a socially generated phenomenon that comes from and enables trust, and bonding. And, and lots of people have this idea. Oh, yeah, there's no laughing at my work because I am in a serious business, or there's no laughing at my work, because my colleagues are not funny. And it turns out that laughter is really rarely about what's funny. It's about the sense we make of it. And it's about what we're trying to signal to one another. And so the a couple of gems in that space, that have really changed my life are, first of all, offer your laughter as a gift to others. Right. So think about your laughter as a kind of social glue, that makes things cohere, that makes groups feel more together, and see whether you can feel more free and open with this gift of laughter. So this is one of them. And then even if you
Greg Voisen
can't Wow, could even if you can't laugh, how about smiling? Yeah, for sure. Just changes our neurology. Yeah, there was a guy that just did a TED talk about smiling. And it's like, it makes so much difference. I mean, you're not gonna laugh, at least.
Jennifer Garvey Berger
I mean, this is it, you're actually changing not only what happens in your blood, when you smile, or when you're there, but also what's happening in the bodies of the people you're with. I mean, that's extraordinary to be able to have that effect on people. That's amazing. And the other one and the other Geminus laughter space, is how can you find ways to take what was heavy and hard and laugh at it? We call it an irony practice. And I used to, I have a several coaching clients who use this irony practice, and we spend the first few minutes of our session together, just going over things that in the moment, felt awful, heavy, serious, difficult the board meeting, in this terrible presentation where I screwed up the slides, you know, all these difficult, hard, grueling things. And then we, we laugh at it, you know, we say, Oh, can you believe that? This happened to me, and we find that actually laughter emerges from those times, like laughter is the reconceptualization of difficulty in just something that's hilarious. And often the hardest things become hilarious. Not all the hardest things. But many of the hardest things become hilarious if we just treat them that way. And then as we face other hardship, it's easier for us to face into it without this kind of heavy, serious, somber thing. Complexity responds very well to play, to lightness, to exploration to co creation laughters like that.
Greg Voisen
Those are great bits of advice, because I think, you know, people, we've talked many times incorporation about being more playful, you'll be more creative, you know? Yeah, for some reason. You know, the words oftentimes bounce off the wall, because the culture has been so ingrained there when somebody new comes in and says, you can do this now, people are hesitant to do that. Because before they were reprimanded for it, right? And it's now you have to break through Oh, man, they're allowing me to have more autonomy. They're allowing me to be more playful. They're allowing me to do you know, I remember reading Yvonne Shannara Woods book, the guy who does Patagonia, he knew, as always, for him about having a culture where people had this autonomy, he would tell the guys who were working in Santa Barbara will go surfing in the middle of the day, do whatever you're gonna do, and then come back and go back to work. It's not like, I have you chained to this desk for eight hours, they don't want you to change to this desk for eight hours. But many of these organizations, they have been in comp ensconced with this kind of thing, it's like, you're gonna be here eight to five, you're gonna grind it out. And that's the way it is. And it's hard for them to make the move. But some of the things in your book, and I'm going to point that out, these gems will certainly make dealing with it a lot easier. So please get the book. Now your gems help in creating conditions for new solutions to emerge? You mentioned that one of the beautiful things about complexity is that we cannot make things happen. We just talked about that a minute ago. What advice would you give a leader about learning to let go of their biases and beliefs and become a receptacle for new creative solutions. And please speak about the idea of you would have non attachment to the outcome. I think a big part of this is the attachment to the outcome. And if you're really going to let go of biases and beliefs and really let go, which I don't know, how many people know how to do that.
Jennifer Garvey Berger
I don't think I think it's a practice, you know, like all of these things that we're talking about, I'm not sure we arrive. But this this question of, can we release our preconception or preconception comes automatically from an assumption whether we notice it or not, that the future is going to be kind of like the past, if we even have a preconception it comes from our past, right? It comes from what we know, it comes from how it's been before. That's what preconception is, we are, we are noticing it before it happens. And I mean, you just imagine all the things that are eliminated, if the thing that we want is something that's happened before. This is a this is a world so quickly changing. We can count on what's happened before. And maybe we don't want to maybe we want a new thing to happen. Maybe this is the point. And so I think when we begin to practice, something like non attachment to outcomes, right, where we say I want to go that away, I want to help people in these ways, I want to create a business in this direction, I want to help make knowledge more available or help make the world more sustainable in its use of energy or whatever your goal might be. If, if you leave, if you leave, I want to go that way without thinking in exactly this way. Or at exactly the speed or with exactly these milestones, then you allow space for margins, and for happenstance and serendipity to arrive. And you allow space for the creativity of others to influence the direction that you actually take. And so I think it's this
Greg Voisen
you also give more room for presents.
Jennifer Garvey Berger
You do you learn from what's going on right now?
Greg Voisen
Exactly. You know, I had this thing told me a long time ago you live in you live in the dead pasture. Imagine future but you have a hard time staying in the now. Call it Eckart Tolle, whoever you want to call it. But the reality is, is that that presents that we need to get to is how we really solve these complex issues. We don't solve them by going Well, yesterday was a real day. I'm gonna drag it all in and tomorrow's got this and I'm worried about what's gonna go in there. You really solve these by staying in the Now that may sound trite to a lot of people but please, from my humble opinion and experience in the 980 authors I've interviewed, it does have a huge impact on if you can stay there. You know, one of your gyms is to lead into humility, right? And then hubris you state that we should think of the smallest moves, that might shift the conditions that are creating our version of our reality. There's underlying our version of our reality. What's the best way to move the ego out of the way? There's a lot of this is attached to ego, I have a job on vice president this division. And remind us that solutions are co-created with the universe, when we are open and receptive to listening.
Jennifer Garvey Berger
Again, first, we have to notice that the ego is in the way, right, which is why this work about self-awareness and what's going on for me is so important because otherwise it doesn't feel like ego. It feels like something else, right? Because the ego is always back there, like pulling the strings, right? And so noticing that our ego might be getting in the way and asking ourselves a question, like, in this moment, how is it getting in the way, as opposed to like, Am I one of those people whose ego gets in the way? Yes, you are? Yes, you are a human person, your heartbeats, right? Your ego gets in the way sometimes. And so paying attention, noticing, and then finding ways, you know, laughing at yourself. And the things that looked so bad earlier in the week is an ego bashing way, right? It's it frees us listening well to others, is another way that we free ourselves up to co create and to be with one another. And this other thing that you're mentioning is getting out of the heavy stories of what has been what should have been what should be next. Anything with a showed in it? And noticing what is what, what is now what is now what are the patterns right now? And how can you start to mess around with the patterns of right now? And amplify the ones you like, and dampen down the ones you don't like, what everything we have is right now.
Greg Voisen
Yeah, it is. And it's a hard thing for people to grasp because we have time. So when you wear a watch, and you look at it, it's on your clock, you know, it's you're reminded everywhere you go of time. It has a difficult time staying present. And I will say that the biggest thing that I've seen in modern world has just been the distraction of the cell phone. There isn't any one device in my humble opinion, that's distracted people more than the cell phone. You know, we've had we've had people fall off cliffs taking pictures themselves. And, you know, I'm not certain that would have happened if you had a Brownie camera or not. Right. So you know, you recounted Jennifer, reading Robert Keegan's book it the life changing book, you called it in your book, in over our heads. Your epiphany was that our emotions were constructed by us, and that we can control and construct emotions. I couldn't agree more. But on the other hand, I think there might be people listening and going, Yeah, okay, I get it. But I don't know how to speak with our listeners about the importance of this book for you. And how knowing we have control our emotions can be one of the biggest game changers in our lives. Yeah,
Jennifer Garvey Berger
I think I've come to believe that we have control over the stories we tell ourselves about our emotions. And so this this question of, I feel angry. I feel angry you I feel angry at you for these reasons, right? This is almost entirely story, a little bit of sensation, I have a feeling that happens in my body there is you know, a different cocktail of chemicals coursing through my veins, different cocktail of neuro hormones coursing through my veins. Relatively briefly, right like that. That actual physical sensation is quite short. Everything that makes an emotion last is the amplification of our stories. And understanding that our emotions are really about the stories I'm telling myself. I've been writing this week, a blog about the phrase the story I make up about this is because actually, I'm not sure there's a more helpful phrase to put at the beginning of a sentence than that, when you're dealing with them with an emotion, like I'm super hurt, that my friends did this thing without me, right? You get it. And then when you talk to them about it, the story I make up about this is you didn't care about my feelings or the story make up about this is that you didn't consider me or the story make up whatever the story is that 98% of its value to rile me up if I can put the phrase the story and make up about it is, and this I think helps us understand our emotions are the result of our stories, as opposed to our emotions are the result of the actions of others. Our emotions are the result of the stories we tell ourselves about the actions of others. And understanding that little hook, and being able to tell myself, oh, I'm making up story about this. And this is why I'm enraged, making up a story about this, this is why I'm hurt. Liberating, totally, in a way, almost nothing in my life has been liberating.
Greg Voisen
More liberating than that, yes. You know, I got a degree in spiritual psychology. And then I came to the realization about MSU, making stuff up. You know, we just have a saying in the university, you don't have to believe everything you think. And the reality was, is that there was a bumper sticker actually made, I think I still have it here. Because we make these stories up. And then we believe the stories we made up, and then they become a belief about it, and then some believe against that other person or whatever. And it can be so insidious, because there's no foundation for it. It's something that I made up, it's maybe a comment, we took wrong from somebody and took it to heart. And it really, they really didn't mean it that way. Right? Because we never checked back in. So I think that's one thing. And I think it's so valuable, what you said, to understand that the stories you make up can have such a huge impact on your life. I remember Byron Katie being on the show, wonderful woman, and she is to put people up in front of the audience. And she'd asked him two questions. And I don't know if you remember her or not, do you remember Byron, Katie? Their name is super familiar. So very famous. She got very famous on asking these questions. The first question was,
Jennifer Garvey Berger
Is it true? Oh, yes.
Greg Voisen
Then she says, Is it really true, right? Because people would make up the story about their mate, Oh, he's so bad, or she's so bad, or they're horrible, or whatever. And she'd sit in the audience chair to chair like this. And she just say, Oh, is it true? And they go, Well, maybe, well, maybe it's maybe it's not really no one I started thinking about, maybe it's not so bad as I made it up to be. And then she'd say, it's really is it really, really true? Go? Well, no, not at all. You know, it was it's just this really interesting way to say, I asked people, you know, you might want to ask yourself, Is it really true? Because the reality is most of the stories you make up are made up? They're not true. Right? There's something you made up. So in conclusion here, your books filled with great stories, research, practical experience for dealing with complexity. What are the few ideas that you would like to leave listeners with that they could navigate complexities in their life with if you were, leave them two or three things that you think from a combination of our 48 minutes here on the Zoom call that you could actually make that happen?
Jennifer Garvey Berger
Oh, two things. Okay. The first thing, the research I did for this book helped convince me that we have a lot more agency to effect the conditions of our lives than we think we do. And that making moves to live more peacefully and complexity is actually delightful. And is filled with things that don't feel like difficulties but feel like joy. And I think the second thing I want to say is one of the most joyful is how we connect with other people, and how we could be more intentional and thoughtful about solving for that love and connection with other folks, and how much that makes complexity bearable.
Greg Voisen
I'd say that second one is really important. Because we're at a point in our history where if you look at the divisiveness that's occurred worldwide, because of the stories we made up about somebody else, that we've This is self-imposed, and divisiveness. It doesn't need to be that way. I'm not saying we need a Haight Ashbury love fest, and let's all go smoke pot and you know, have a great time. What I'm saying is, if just little by little you'd make if anybody out there listening would make one small step toward making a connection with another person, I think it would make a huge difference in the world to try and bridge, whatever it is, you're attempting to bridge, just like you said, go take them to lunch, go do whatever. I mean, I know my nonprofit compassionate communications foundation, I go out and give $100 gift cards to people on the streets that are homeless. And I make my attempt to bridge that I have to do that with every individual that I hand a card to, I don't know who they are, many of them have mental illness I've got to overcome. But I've also got to learn how to work with that subset of the population to help find more love and compassion for them, no matter who they are. And I think that's true inside of a business, if you would think about that individual out there, and that they have emotions and feelings and concerns and upsets. And all they want to do is be heard, you said listened to, but I'd say heard. Same thing. And with that, I want to let all our listeners go to Jennifer's website, and we'll put a link to that. And that website is cultivating leadership.com. We're also going to have her back on the shelf next month for this book, simple habits for complex times. So Jennifer, thank you so much. Have a wonderful holiday season enjoy France and the countryside and drinking wine and being with all her great friends there and the community that you build. Sounds like a wonderful life. Namaste to you in everything that you're doing to help the world heal and heal these companies and the people inside of them. Bring more light.
Jennifer Garvey Berger
Thank you so much. Thank you for this great conversation. I hope you have a wonderful day.
Greg Voisen
All right, thanks.
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