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When I invited Roberto Mayer of São Paulo Brazille to be a guest on Unstoppable Mindset I did not foresee the scope and far-ranging directions our conversation would go. Let me first tell you a bit about him.

Roberto spent his life in São Paulo. Even at an early age he was teaching and tutoring classmates in math and Science. While in College he in the late 70s he learned about Microcomputers and helped bring them to South America. While at São Paulo University he also held a full-time job working at a bank computerizing the organization. For the past twenty years he has owned and operated his own consultant organization. He also volunteers for several organizations and he even finds time to relax playing in-door volleyball.

Roberto, as you will see, is a deep thinker and a philosopher. During our time we discuss computers of course including the future of AI, religion vs spirituality and drugs, alcohol drugs and addiction.

I find Roberto to be a humble and thoughtful person. I trust you will find him to be the same and that you will value our time together.

About the Guest:

Roberto pioneered microcomputers' introduction in South America as a teenager, in the late 70s. After some years as a corporate employee, he started working as an entrepreneur, and has not stopped to this day. In parallel, he developed an academic career in Maths and Computer Science, at São Paulo University, for many years.

During his long career, Roberto always worked as a volunteer, across many organizations. His participation in IT Trade Associations evolved from local to worldwide.

Hence, when life presented challenged related to drug addiction in his family, he entered the world of mutual help groups.

Roberto's writing skills turned into several books over time - covering various aspects of his rich career.

Ways to connect with Roberto:

Website: https://robertocmayer.com.brLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/rocmayerFacebook: https://web.facebook.com/roberto.c.mayer.brInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/roberto.c.mayer.brYouTube: https://www.youtube.com/rocmayer

About the Host:Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.

Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children’s Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association’s 2012 Hero Dog Awards.

https://michaelhingson.comhttps://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/https://twitter.com/mhingsonhttps://www.youtube.com/user/mhingsonhttps://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/

accessiBe Linkshttps://accessibe.com/https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBehttps://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/

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Transcription Notes:

Michael Hingson 00:00Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us. Michael Hingson 01:21Hi, there, I'm your host, Mike hingson. And welcome to another episode of unstoppable mindset. Today, we get to interview Roberto Carlos Mayer, and Roberto lives in Sao Paulo, Brazil, and has a really interesting story to tell I'm sure in a lot of ways, one of the things I learned from reading his bio, is that he brought microcomputers to South America as a teenager in the late 70s. That must be kind of fun. But Roberto has had a long career as an entrepreneur, working with a lot of different kinds of fields. And we'll get to that. He's also a writer, and has been an entrepreneur, as I said most of his life. So Roberto, welcome to unstoppable mindset. We're really glad you're here. Roberto Carlos Mayer 02:08Thanks, Michael. I'm very glad for your invitation, and hope to share a little bit of my long story. Well, Michael Hingson 02:17why don't we start at the beginning of your long story. So why don't you tell us a little bit about you growing up and all that. Roberto Carlos Mayer 02:24Okay, I, I started my involvement with computers, as you mentioned in the early 70s. Now I at that time, I was in college, and the chemistry professor told me that his brother had brought some micro computers from the United States here. And he was gathering people to try to understand what they did, how they could be programmed and so on. In school, I was always a very good student in math and other scientific subjects. So I accepted that invitation. And from that time on, I started working with computers up to this day, I did change my mind Michael Hingson 03:20worked out pretty well. Well. So go back a little bit further. Have you always lived in Sao Paulo? Roberto Carlos Mayer 03:28Yes, in fact, I have lived in San Paulo, all my life. Michael Hingson 03:35So you're your What did your parents do? And how did that shape what you do? Roberto Carlos Mayer 03:44Well, in fact, I have been always independent, I started working very early. I think I was the time 11 or 12 years old when I started lecturing some colleagues in school in hours after school, and I so I developed my independence very, very early in life, and always managed to do many things simultaneously. I think that's my characteristic. And besides my work with computers, I've always managed to bring them together. Studying and social activities and volunteering activities is very, very early. Ah, Michael Hingson 04:40well when you were 11 and 12. And you said you were lecturing to some of your classmates, what did you lecture about? Roberto Carlos Mayer 04:49Well, in fact, I lectured about math about physics, about chemistry, about English. Many, there were some classmates who He had very difficulty in some of the subjects and the teachers always considered these people to be the those that would not be able to learn it. But I managed to teach them and to pass the exams. So there are parents who are very satisfied with my work. And so this was a tie for me a significant income source. It also allowed me to decide to what to do with my money, which normally is even those times was not the standard behavior for teenagers. Michael Hingson 05:44No, I certainly certainly wasn't. So did your parents encourage you to do this? In Roberto Carlos Mayer 05:51fact, my, my father was never very involved with me. But my mother, in fact, encouraged this, because she knew that it, it was the thing I like to do. Michael Hingson 06:07And so she encouraged you to develop your talents. Did she work? Did she work? Roberto Carlos Mayer 06:13Yes. She, she worked as a secretary at the big corporation. Michael Hingson 06:19And what did your father do? Roberto Carlos Mayer 06:21My father was an eternal student, he was involved in some very exotic subjects, which I never got to understand the 100%. But he didn't have a, as far as I know, irregular or working skills for long. Michael Hingson 06:45But you were always interested in math and science and technology, which is, which is kind of cool. And you learn to program these computers that your, your chemistry professor told you about? So What languages did you program in? What did you learn? Roberto Carlos Mayer 07:02Well, the first language I learned to program in was the basic basic Yeah, Michael Hingson 07:10I remember based on Roberto Carlos Mayer 07:11that, but then I, I started studying the organization of the microprocessors, and teach myself to program in assembler also. Ah, yeah. So I learned the assembler for the apple, two chip for ADHD chip, and many others, I don't remember. Michael Hingson 07:38Well, so you, you did that in college. And when you left college, what did you? Well, when you graduate, you graduated? What did you get a degree in? Roberto Carlos Mayer 07:51Well, in fact, the I don't know, this educational system here in Brazil is a little bit different. We get a standard nomination just for completing our studies as teenagers. And then we get into the university main factor, but when I left school, I started working. And due to this involvement with computers, first as a freelancer, and then in a very short time period, I managed to start working for a very huge local bank here in Brazil, where I was responsible for introducing this microcomputer culture. That was at the beginning of the 80s. And so I had the challenge to once again to manage my university studies simultaneously to this professional work, which was obviously was all day Michael Hingson 09:02what were networks like back then, so you talked about using micro computers, but they they had to in one way or another communicate with each other, I would assume, right? Roberto Carlos Mayer 09:13Well, in fact, communication was very, very restricted. Yeah. We had some communication through serial cables. I remember Rs 232. Michael Hingson 09:25I know. Roberto Carlos Mayer 09:30And another experiment I was involved, which is also uncommon. At that time, there were no printers for microcomputers. So we adopted telex machine to be used as a printer for microcomputers. But the don't the Telex machines don't use the ASCII character system. So we had to study how the Telex machines codes the characters they print, and then develop a routine to do the translation from the computer ASCII set character set to the set used by telex machines, which Alex Baldo was invented by a French mathematician called Bobo. Michael Hingson 10:21So, basically, when you printed something the the process was that the microcomputer whatever computer you were using would send the ASCII characters to a translating computer, which would translate and then send it to the printer. Roberto Carlos Mayer 10:43Now, it was all running on the same computer. Okay, okay, we developed a co developed language, which was running behind the this high level programming language. Yeah. And we connected the Telex machine to the serial port. So it was all running on a single micro computer with 8k of RAM memory. Michael Hingson 11:13You didn't even have a parallel cable, huh? Roberto Carlos Mayer 11:15No, yeah, I'm not. Michael Hingson 11:19Well, when I went to college at the University of California at Irvine, one of the things that I didn't have access to was any kind of a braille printer. They didn't really have much of any of those things back then. And one of the people in the computer science department, who I got to know very well Dick Rubinstein found a place that could well that had developed a sort of a way of making a braille printer it was using one of the wasn't an IBM Selectric. It was one of the computers with the little print cylinders, or one of the printers with the little print cylinders. And somebody had developed a routine that and they with a modified version of the cylinder that had some Braille dots on it in certain positions. And in certain rows. The, if I wanted to print something, the printer was actually connected to a PDP eight computer that did the translation. So I could have my print my compute Well, my keyboard and my system connected through a modem 1200 baud, and then this PDP eight would actually do the translation so I could actually get Braille print out. So it was a pretty fascinating sort of thing. And it worked. But, you know, that was back in 1971 1972. And 73 and beyond. But technology has changed a little bit since then, hasn't it? It Roberto Carlos Mayer 13:05hasn't changed by many orders of magnitude. Michael Hingson 13:09Yeah, being sarcastic. Yeah. So you went to work for a bank? And what did you primarily do for them? Roberto Carlos Mayer 13:18Well, in fact, today, he had bought some micro computers and didn't know exactly how to apply them in practice. So my my first job there was to develop the needed application software's in order to make these micro computers useful. And I started when then this was completed in a couple of months. Then they started buying more and more micro computers, and we needed more and more people. So I was at the time 20 something. And I had to manage a huge team. And to develop a group of new programmers which I had to train me I stayed there until 1986. And at the time I left I was 25. It was managing a team of 40 people. Michael Hingson 14:22Now when you were working at the bank, were you also doing work at Sao Paulo University. Roberto Carlos Mayer 14:29Yes, in fact, at that time, I was a student now i i was studying at San Paolo university, because I was my wish to continue to study something related to math and science and computers. But at that time at the public university here in San Paolo the the only course available with lectures at night was a computer A Course, which was intended to build math professors. So that was the only choice I had. I went after it. And I, I decided to take that course. In fact, when I finished that course, that was one year after I left the bank, I had already started working on my own. Thanks to that, then I was able to start doing my course in as a master's in science, in computer science and applied math. And that took me another five years at the university. And after one year, and a couple of months, I was invited to become a professor at the computer science department stayed there for almost 12 years. Michael Hingson 16:00When you were studying and working at the bank, and then after you left the bank, you I think you started your own consulting and went out on your own right? Yep. Okay, how did you do all of that at the same time, because being a student is pretty much a full time job typically. And working at the bank had to be a full time job. That was a lot to do at once. Roberto Carlos Mayer 16:23Yes, I think that's one of the my abilities I developed over all my life. And managing to balance these very different things requires, in first place, a lot of discipline. And on the other the other thing is, as I was studying many things I, which were, for me relatively easy. studying maths for me was never a problem in attending. Classes was enough for me to be able to pass the exams, net exercises, were just the task professors put on us, but they weren't for me learning to. Now I remember when I was in a very young child in six plus years, 10 years old. There was a professor basics Elementary School. Anyway, he didn't want to teach. He wrote a lot of math exercises, for class to solve. And when he, he ended up writing up all his exercises, I had already solved all but the last one. She took my piece of paper and use it to correct the exercises of the others. And I use this time, I had three inside class to do my other homework for the other. So the this was an example of how I was able to manage various things at the same time. So Michael Hingson 18:07you worked at the bank during the day, right? Yeah. Roberto Carlos Mayer 18:11Well, so Brian, in the morning to 6pm. Michael Hingson 18:15So classes were mostly at night for you then because yesterday started Roberto Carlos Mayer 18:19about 7pm and went until 10 3011. In the night, yeah. Wow. Michael Hingson 18:28I should do homework. Roberto Carlos Mayer 18:31Well, I the same way I learned to read in school, inside the class. Michael Hingson 18:37Okay. Can you? Have you ever been able to teach other people to develop those same skills? Have you ever tried to do that? Roberto Carlos Mayer 18:48Well, in fact, that's one of my current projects. I'm involved in its structure in this as a methodology to teach others to be able to do the same and multitask. Michael Hingson 19:03Yeah, and then be efficient. How's that working out? How is it working? Okay, are you getting? Are you having success of teaching other people to do it? Roberto Carlos Mayer 19:15Well, in fact, I am starting in structuring materials I am not ready to as a public to offer this to the public at this moment. I hope to do this over the next 12 or 15 mil. Michael Hingson 19:30Well, it it sounds like it'd be a very fascinating thing to to do. And if you can actually develop a program and a process and teach people to do it. That would certainly be a beneficial thing. At the same time, you know, people do need to take some time to relax. Do you ever take time to relax? Roberto Carlos Mayer 19:50Yes, of course. Michael Hingson 19:51Okay, just checking Roberto Carlos Mayer 19:56about my life the best way I I like to relax is traveling. And and this is also a subject I have developed very uncommon experiences due to many other works. Now another way of relaxing, I always say relaxing doesn't mean doing something relaxing means doing something different from what you are doing that is changing your brain operation to a completely different area. This can involve something like traveling, I like very much to travel by car to plan travels to get to know people in the way they live, and not the way us tourist packages are normally offered. So to know people in fact, and another way of relaxing, let's say I developed also very early when I started with this at the time I was at the bank is in doing voluntary work, which involves promoting a course and provides a way to know a lot of other people which are interested in the same course which have the same goals. But which is different from the working and studying space. So switching from one environment to the other is a very efficient way to relax. Another arena I'm involved now for over 10 years is in sports. So that's another way of relaxing and I take this very seriously. Why is my schedule reserved for that? Doesn't matter how much it rains or whatever happens? What kind of sports? But I'm playing volleyball for 10 years Michael Hingson 22:04volleyball? indoor or outdoor? Roberto Carlos Mayer 22:09Indoor indoor? Yeah, well, then Michael Hingson 22:11you get away from the rain. Okay. That's how you do that. Okay, I understand. Well, but even so, I hear what you're saying. And then you You really said something that I have felt for a long time. The problem with a lot of the guided tours and the tours that people buy is that you, you go somewhere and you're on a very strict schedule, and you don't really get to know people and you don't really get the same flavor of, of the environment that gives you a deeper knowledge and understanding and I'm buying with you I'd rather go somewhere and get a chance to meet people and spend some real time. My wife was a travel agent for a few years. Back when we first got married, and we would take occasional trips, familiarization trips, and again, they were they're well organized. But you didn't get to spend a lot of time it was as you would say today very touristy. And so we found that it was a lot more fun when we took our own trips and and really got to spend more time and get to know things a lot better than just the organized tours did. Roberto Carlos Mayer 23:27Yes, I fully agree with that. I always try to do it that way. Obviously, when you have a very short scheduled, you have some meetings, for work or for some organization where I volunteer and you have to fly out and back in just one or two days, you're obviously cannot involve a lot of time to do that kind of exploration. But when I have at least a week to be at some place, I always like to reserve some time for these kinds of local incursions. Michael Hingson 24:08One of the things that I also do is try to find, of course, for me only knowing English it has to be in English, but local radio stations for example that I can listen to, to really get a little bit more of a flavor. But yeah, I think you're right. And as a as a speaker, oftentimes, I will go somewhere and not be able to spend a lot of time because it's like one or two days, and then I'm off again, or I come home. And so I don't get to know things as well as I would like. But I really enjoy it when I do have the time to spend a few days somewhere to get to know people and to get to know the country. It is so wonderful to be able to have that opportunity. Yes, Roberto Carlos Mayer 24:56uh huh. Radio stations you mentioned are very interest thing strategy I also use during my my travels, I speak obviously, Portuguese, I speak English, I fluent in Spanish in German. So this allows me to, to communicate in many countries, but when I'm in a country where I don't know the language, the first thing I do is if I rented a car is hearing the radio. So accustomed the ear to the local language, and it obviously depends which country you are in, had, in some cases, it will be relatively easy. Let's say for example, when I was hearing the radio in the Netherlands, now understanding Dutch, if you're no English and German is not that difficult, once you will get a through the filter of the accent. On the other sides, you have languages, which are so complicated in their organization, that you can hear radio or even television for hours or days, and not be able to know the difference if you are hearing the news, or the transmission of a sports event. Yes. Chinese. To me, that happened to me in Poland, and Poland. In Poland, yes, the Polish language is very complicated, because it's, it's a language, which has roots in Slavic in Latin, and in the old German languages, like German and English. So you have for each word you have to know from which of these roots is word comes from. So it's very, very difficult. Well, Michael Hingson 26:52then you also have languages like Chinese, which are extremely complex and extremely different. From this, the civil ensign, and all aspects of it are significantly different from what we're all used to. Roberto Carlos Mayer 27:09He has of course, the you know, you have languages like Chinese, or Japanese or Hebrew or languages, like the Armenian which use each have different writing structures and different sentence organization. But in this case, for example, if you look at written polish, they use the Latin alphabet, but it's not. It's not understandable. I spent more than a week in Poland and managed to learn the basics, but it's very, very difficult. Yeah, not least I was able to enter a restaurant and ask for sprinkling water or non sprinkling water correctly. Michael Hingson 27:56Yes, or, or carbonated water or not carbonated water? Roberto Carlos Mayer 28:01That was too much. Yeah, yeah. Michael Hingson 28:04Well, I hear you, and, but it's, it is fun to go to different places. And I've had the joy of traveling to all 50 states in the United States over the years. And you know, there are different customs in different states. And it's fascinating just in this country. And you, you see some of it, of course, being around different countries in South America, and certainly one of the larger ones. And, again, the same thing, different customs, and it's fun and fascinating to to meet people who observe different customs, and we're used to, Roberto Carlos Mayer 28:42yes, like that considered other privilege. I think it's something which I got back from my volunteering. I, when I started as an entrepreneur, I started to volunteer in it trade associations. And due to my ability to speak in various languages, in a couple of years, I was allocated to international relations. So I started to get involved in International Federations in this area. And due to this, I had the opportunity to, to travel a lot, mainly in in the American area, from Canada to Argentina and in Europe. But in all, in almost 50 countries have driven cars and 29 of them. You Michael Hingson 29:39You've certainly had a wonderful golden opportunity to experience a lot I I've been to a few countries, not 50 but I've I've been to a number and really enjoy the people and I think that's part of it is that we have to recognize that not everybody's exactly The same way we are and we shouldn't be disappointed if things aren't just the way we are used to hear or in your case where you are because people and different civilizations are different cultures are are different. And we should respect that. And I sometimes I've seen tourists who don't, which is unfortunate. Roberto Carlos Mayer 30:22But in fact, the more civilizations and different cultures, you know, you'll have a, I think you'll have a better understanding of how human life in works. In fact, I think most humanity problems come from those people who live in a single culture, maybe due to religious beliefs due to some autocratic government, which are restrained into a very single position. But I think most most humans in our in, in fact, good people, even those involved in autocratic regimes. I, I want tell the guy's name. But for example, I had the opportunity to chat for hours and hours with a guy in Kuba, which was part of the official Communist Party. In Kubernetes, every couple of years now, you can have private businesses, but the licenses are only given out to members of the party. And I, it was my second time in Cuba. So I knew that I would be allowed to travel alone through the country, I went to visit a National Park, which is about 300 kilometers north of Nevada. And then I in the evening, I got to a very scenic city on on the shore. And this guy had who had the license to operate, small hotel and restaurant there. So he invited me to obviously pay to have dinner there. And then we started chatting I came in, it was still day, and when I left his place, it was already after midnight, to drive back to LA bhana. Another three hours, wow, come back to the hotel, because the Congress, the conference, I would I was participating got started next day. But it was a very interesting chat, and after some some doses of coupon room, he lost any restrictions on his talk. And then he, he told me about his real life. Michael Hingson 33:06And that's, that's the whole point is to get to know people well enough to really have the opportunity to understand. So it's, it's a lot of fun to do. Well, you so you continue to this day to do math and, and deal obviously with science and so on. But when you left the bank, what what did you start to do from a consulting an entrepreneurial standpoint? Although obviously, you had an entrepreneurial spirit before then, but what did you start to do to earn an income and so on after leaving the bank? Roberto Carlos Mayer 33:42Well, in the first years, I worked as a consultant, I did some programming and I did a lot of teaching other people to learn to program at the time, the C language was on the market. And here in Brazil, there were very few people who were able to teach to other programmers. Yeah. So at that time, I, I started teaching and also writing I published some technical books in the programming arena, the time also was invited to translate some of the of the American authors which were writing about those subjects at that time. So, I, I had a lot of involvement and then when, at the university, I went into the working my thesis then I started to develop a project about the development of user interfaces. Now that was at a time where not even Windows three was on the map. market. And that was the the keystone to set up my my first former business. Yeah. That was 1990. Yeah. Michael Hingson 35:18Yep, Windows was was around. I loved MS DOS. But I also understand the value of windows and graphic interfaces and all the other things that Windows brought. But for a while MS DOS was a much more accessible language or system operating system for me to use then windows that wasn't really something that worked well with screen readers for blind people. And that evolved over time. Roberto Carlos Mayer 35:50Technology always, always evolves. Basically, companies reframe recycling what they do in the you have to reinvent yourself every couple of years to stay on the market. And you have at this time, no, no it product you can buy, which is on the market for more than 10 years. Michael Hingson 36:18If that long, but yeah, and you're right. And and look, there are some things that although the products change, the basic concepts are things that have been around for a while, and it's just that they evolve. I mean, look at integrated circuits, what are they, they're, they're made up in part of a lot of transistors that that came around first, and transistors came from tubes. And although the theory is a little bit different, basically what they do, ultimately is the same thing, but we're getting faster and smaller and more efficient in everything that we do. Roberto Carlos Mayer 36:56Yeah, in fact, that happens on the electronic arena and happens also on the on the math Friday, if you look at the papers written by mathematicians like poster from Neumann in the 30s and 40s the structure of current computers still obeys the basic ideas they put on paper. And the thing the what we are now seeing being developed, which changes this is what is called the quantum computers that right that will change the the theoretical background, but they are still very, very limited and needs to use standard computers as an interface because they have no interface of their own up to this moment. Right. So maybe that in the future, they there will be just add ons with very capable processors to do something with standard computers do not. But there is no no clear way for them to to gain the the main market for us to have these kinds of computers at home or in standard business. Right? Michael Hingson 38:13Not yet. But it will happen, it will happen. No, no doubt that it will happen at some point. Well, so going on that same discussion point. What about artificial intelligence, I actually listened to an interview with someone recently who said that the time is going to definitely come and maybe not in the too distant future. But the time is going to come that computers will be able to truly create on their own and truly have the potential to overwhelming what we do you think that's true? Roberto Carlos Mayer 38:56I don't, I don't either. I don't artificial intelligence is a very old subject. I remember I was still a student at University. We were visited by a Japanese professors, which were coming down here to tell us about what other time was called the fifth generation computer project to develop artificial intelligence that's 40 years ago. So and we had a lot of press coverage during the last 12 months due to this kind of generative AI, which Chad GPG provides. And in fact, the algorithms which are based inside these kinds of plugs are known in the computer science arena for decades. The main point is computing power available at the time wasn't enough to build big enough models so that they can simulate being humans. That is the I think the main difference nowadays. But this doesn't change the basic conceptual fact that they are just reproducing a combination of facts and knowledge which they collected from other humans. And creativity is very different from neural networks are from other AI, so called algorithms, Michael Hingson 40:40so do you. So you don't think that with, let's bring back into a quantum computers and so on, that take processing to a whole new level, you don't think that will give computers the opportunity to become creative in their own right and compete for experiences? Roberto Carlos Mayer 41:05I think we won't see this in our generation, I think the if you look at the human brain, in detail, science has still not explained how it works. how humans are, in fact, able to connect ideas which have been stored in your brain for decades. Like I'm using know my brain in order to answer your question. And what's happening in my brain in order to module the words I'm saying to you, that's not yet explained. So it would be very, very difficult to have something simulating something we don't know how it works. Yeah, that's about the, the number of neurons we have inside the brain of every human is still bigger than any computer ever built. The other point is economical, I think there's another factor which people are not looking after that this very huge AI models need a lot of computing power. So they are restricted to very huge organizations. And, in fact, we are seeing that the capacity of data centers, which are being used for by these kinds of models, is restricted to what's called by the President, the big tech companies. And smaller companies are just reminded to pay them to use their capacity. The other point is, the amount of electric power. And the impact on environment, this will all have could also be a limitation over time for the usage of this kind of computing. The same way. For example, it has been happening with some of these crypto currencies, which was also a church promise for big changes for humanity a couple of decades ago, and it still hasn't happened. In fact, we have obviously, you have a range of people using this kind of stuff. But it has not got mainstream mainstream is still standard money. Banks continue to exist. International trade is still conducted using standard money. Michael Hingson 43:48Well, and cryptocurrency took some big hits over the last year or two as well. And it is not the panacea that everyone said it was going to be. Roberto Carlos Mayer 43:58Yeah, exactly. That's called culminate in it. Right. We frequently have this kind of huge promises, which then do not deliver. Metaverse, for example, is another example that was very huge in hype in marketing a couple of years ago. And it seems also to have been these appearing just days behind AI. Michael Hingson 44:26Yeah, yeah, we are. We're very fickle as a as a race. We just go by the latest thing or the thing that people start to publicize and we forget the other things and that that's a problem. We don't focus very well, especially over the long term. Roberto Carlos Mayer 44:47Yes, the that requires the capacity to at first to remember all what has happened. And most people prefer to do Forget, yes, Michael Hingson 45:00we do not learn from history nearly as well as we ought to. Roberto Carlos Mayer 45:07And so that we are condemned to repeat it. Michael Hingson 45:11Good point. Well, Roberto Carlos Mayer 45:15someone wrote this before me, I'm just repeating it. I don't remember who wrote this. Michael Hingson 45:19No, I know what you're saying though. I, I've heard that too. So what made you decide to, in addition to work, in addition to working and to being in school and being an academic, now, are you still doing things at South Paulo University? Roberto Carlos Mayer 45:35No, I left university at the end of the 90s. So you're just do my involvement in the I trade associations. Plus, at the time, I had little children, two boys to care for. So that was too much to synchronize on to manage all of this even for me, so I had to step down from university. People they didn't want me to live. It was a battle for almost two years to be be able to live better in the end i i left Michael Hingson 46:17children do take time, don't they? Roberto Carlos Mayer 46:19Oh, yes. When they are small, especially. Yeah. Michael Hingson 46:25Well, but as they grow older, you have other challenges. Yeah. Roberto Carlos Mayer 46:31You need less time, but resources, you will will still have too Michael Hingson 46:36many some less time. But it's got to be quality time. Yeah. Now, are you still married? Roberto Carlos Mayer 46:44Yes. But I'm in a second marriage. Marriage went, Michael Hingson 46:52went went a different way. But it's good to have somebody to share with you as of course. Now, have you taught her to multitask and be as organized as you Roberto Carlos Mayer 47:05think? Similar maybe not to the same level, but But I think when we get older we will learn to to see value in these kinds of abilities in other people's. Michael Hingson 47:21Yeah. Which is great. Why did you start volunteering and doing some of that in the first place? Roberto Carlos Mayer 47:31Well, my, I had started volunteering, when I was still at the bank to organize user groups to foster the introduction of microcomputers here. And the time I was involved with the was called the Microsoft User Group, which Michael Hingson 47:56was, I remember that, yeah. Roberto Carlos Mayer 47:58And I even had the opportunity to, to interact in person with Bill Gates when he was just a couple of millions words, not billings, Michael Hingson 48:12you mean that guy who said we never need any more than what was it? 64k of memory? Yeah. Okay. Roberto Carlos Mayer 48:19She traveled here to Brazil for the first time in 1987. And at that time, due to my English, I was in charge to helping him out with the lectures, you was going to provide our meetings. And I also had a long conversation. One evening, in fact, one night, it was the, there was a huge meeting at the house of the guy who at the time was the president of the user group. And this guy had also commercial interests in representing Microsoft in Brazil, and he invited many politicians and other businessman and they were all on Bill Gates. sides the whole evening, and I remember it was always midnight, the owner of the house, called me in to decide and asked me if I was able to have a bit and bite conversation in English. I said, Yeah, of course. And then he said me it is. Bill Gates is already tired of speaking about economics, politics and business. He's asking for someone to talk about technical subjects. So I had the privilege to sit before the on a sofa line in in a room during that big house with Bill Gates. For almost two hours, chatting about technical subjects at that time, Microsoft was developing what was called the Quick family of programming languages, which then became the visual family, which is still on the market today in Visual Basic, and maybe the most normal. So I think the that was a privileged situation. Getting back to what you were calling about the volunteering, and you all to all these experiences, I also started writing as a volunteer for some magazines, some newspapers, regular columns, and due to this publicity, then people were the time leaders for the IT trade associations came after me and invited me to participate. And I, in that arena have a very long, very, very long training in on the person on the state level, then on the national level. And then on the international level. I so much that about eight years ago, I wrote a book about all these experience. Michael Hingson 51:25What's it called? Well, Roberto Carlos Mayer 51:27it's written in Portuguese. Yes, the title translating into English, it will be something like, together, we are more, in fact doing. And you'll gather, a basic idea is when you gather together people which are after the same course, then you have a lot of techniques you can apply in order to influence public opinion, governments and to create relations about the communities you are connecting. Because business is always between people. So when you want to do international trade, for example, you have to develop in first place relations in second place, trust with other people. Otherwise, you can travel a lot, spend a lot of money, but you want to be able to sell anything. Go Michael Hingson 52:25back to Bill Gates for just a quick second, would you? Would you say that Bill Gates is clearly one of the leading visionaries of our time. Roberto Carlos Mayer 52:37I don't think so, at current time, but he was at that time. Here and Steve Jobs said up infrastructure for change in the IT arena, which we are still experiencing. They're the consequences of what they set up. Michael Hingson 52:58What would you say are the leading visionaries today in in all of that? Roberto Carlos Mayer 53:04While I think we don't have some someone we could call a very big visionary, some people, many people are trying to to be this person. But it doesn't matter if you look at Elon Musk or not the guy from Oracle that they are not presenting anything, which in fact will bring in us huge changes. As these two guys we were talking before half. Michael Hingson 53:33My My thought is Elon Musk's should have stayed with with the Tesla vehicles. He's done more to change and bring about and could do more to bring about change regarding vehicles and electric vehicles and so on and going into the technology world. Yeah, I think there are some issues there. Roberto Carlos Mayer 53:57Yes, of course, but I but electric vehicles are not a new invention. In fact, electric vehicles existed before details which are powered on oil. So that is the first experiments done in German at the end of the 90s. In the late 19th century, were electrical vehicles. And then the oil based motors obviously showed much more power, so they replace them and that got into production. I think this is a an evolutionary process. What I think I've seen, yes, what is now called the traditional carmakers like Mr. Ford or Honda or the others. They have the capacity to produce similar products there is no invention and no patents and nothing which To avoid makes the Tesla production unique. Michael Hingson 55:05I guess I guess what I'm saying, though, is that I think he stood and stands a bigger chance of having a greater impact if he had stuck with that than going into to some of the computer stuff where he clearly does not. But, you know, everybody makes their own choices. Roberto Carlos Mayer 55:28Yeah, of course, I think if you look at his his work at Twitter, then exactly. You're back. He's been able to, at least that's the way I see it. Yeah. But there has basically been destroyed by Yeah, he's his policies inside the company. Yeah, I think that's the people who have created the code or have left the company changing the name to make any good? No, Michael Hingson 56:03that makes no sense and doesn't doesn't help anything at all. Well, so you, you've been writing what are some of the more recent books that you've written? Roberto Carlos Mayer 56:15Well, after this, this book for the IT trade association experience, I started working on another book in a very different arena, I I got involved in multiple support groups, for people and families, which are involved with addiction due to a problem in my current family. And due to all this experience, I had previously in in other voluntary movements, I was telling you before, then, I was able to understand the significance of this and also to ask questions, which most participants had never made before. So I was led to get to get in touch with the founders, the leaders and I myself, decided to research subjects which had not been researched before. Maybe you are the audience have heard about the Serenity Prayer which aims in the surface due to Alcoholics Anonymous, which is used in most of mutual support groups are most people just repeat it in a very mechanical way. And don't think about it at all. Think what it really means. Yeah. I had the that was another very interesting coincidence. One of the founders of the movement, I participated at the time, was an American priest, the father issues with Father, which was American, he was born in southern Texas near to the Mexican border and came here to Brazil at the end of the 60s, he lived pulled up 200 years and nine months in age. And during his last, let's say, five or six years of life, in fact, I, I had a lot of interaction with him. And he is has written the foreword to this book I wrote about the Serenity Prayer. He even instigated me to publish this book in the United States, put me in contact with some Jesuits in America. But then the pandemic came in. So this is still on the my to do list. Michael Hingson 59:03I hope it does get published in the United States, I think it would be very beneficial to do it, what got you involved in the whole issue of religion and, you know, in spirituality and so on, Roberto Carlos Mayer 59:17but in fact, it's not. Religion and Spirituality are mixed up with you two interests or by many people, but in fact, they in my vision, they are two very different concepts. I was born in a Jewish family so I, I have this this word view since a child but I've never been orthodox. So I've always been open to to understand other people and even over time, participated in many other cultures. But the main fact is, when you look at religions, they try to explain how you have to behave or what's expected in order for you to get some kind of reward. Maybe in this world, or I suppose the next word, or will be after our, that's us, physically, humans. And Spirituality, in my view is something very different that spirituality is, in fact, a couple of rules, which teach you how to behave, how to act, so that you can benefit from that, and others are not damaged, by the way you are acting. And it's about interaction and action. And this is very different from religion, if you look at human history, doesn't matter. If you look at Western civilization, like the crusades in the middle age, or what's happening over the centuries in India, there are a lot of human wars, which have been fought just for religious differences. So that's a very, very complicated subject, which we could be talking about for hours, hours. Yeah. Well, I have even a whole speech about the subject, telling you this history of religions and how spirituality is different, is a very interesting subject. And it's, it is the subjects I touched in this last book. What Michael Hingson 1:01:53is so unfortunate is God is God, everywhere. But every religion thinks that it's the only way to get to God. And it's, it's, and God just supports that religion. And neither of those is true. Roberto Carlos Mayer 1:02:11In fact, the most religious leaders tried tried to use this as a way of, in some way gaining power. Yeah. That's what history has, has shown us. Michael Hingson 1:02:28Yeah, it's it's not that way at all. Roberto Carlos Mayer 1:02:33Of course, but the I think the this process of people understanding this and acting in a way, which is collectively positive for the whole of humanity, and it is, in fact, something which is still in its beginnings, we still have wars, for religious reasons. Michael Hingson 1:03:01Why Well, or we have wars and people, some of the people try to say it's for religious reasons, but it's not I mean, look at we've experienced over, you know, a little while the whole issue with Israel and Hamas and Israel, and and I'm not gonna say the Muslim world, because I think it isn't. It doesn't need to be that way. If you deal with the fact that in reality, that's the same God. But some people try to use it again for their own purposes, rather than really being very spiritual about it at all. Roberto Carlos Mayer 1:03:39Yeah, the fact that the moment you fire doesn't matter if it's a rifle or a missile, or a bomb, you are damaging another human. So yeah, at that moment, you have stopped having a spiritual behavior, right, because you're out there in one direction you are sending in a nation. Yeah. Michael Hingson 1:04:02You mentioned mutual support groups. Tell me more about that. Roberto Carlos Mayer 1:04:08Well, the this is what I mentioned, who wrote the foreword to my book. He was responsible, his name is was Harold ROM, and he brought to Brazil an American movement called the Townsville app to help families of people involved with addiction. That's got some kind of adaptation here in Brazil. And after a couple of years, this is movement is still active, but I participated there also. But I had some, some problems with it after this. This book came out I At some very difficult problems there. I think this, they were very, very stuck at what they had made up and didn't want to change anything. And I think the main reason behind is this, the contents I set up in this book that we're showing something was really needed. Now over any, any human invention needs to be adapted over time, because we are not, God, now we are not perfect. Makeup up can always be entered. And so now for it's now almost four years, we have set up a new organization called Conscious laughs translating it from Portuguese, which has the same purpose. But we have done a lot of updates to the methodology and having expanded it to cover not only addiction, but also other kinds of very difficult situations people can have in life, like, for example, people who have children with strong disabilities like autism, or, or others, which are really difficult to handle. So, Michael Hingson 1:06:25have you had any addiction issues in your family? Yeah. So that brings a personal and a little bit closer to home? Roberto Carlos Mayer 1:06:35Yes, of course, the the addiction in society is still kind of taboo. And you know, most people don't know what's happening. Most people don't want to learn about it. And it's very, very, at least here in Brazil, most people who are not informed about the subject tend to do some moral judgment, while in fact, it's a disease. Yeah. Michael Hingson 1:07:12I know. And there are a lot of people who drink a lot of alcohol. I've never liked the taste of alcohol, I can drink wine, and I can occasionally have a drink. But I've seen people drunk. And I just don't ever want to be in that position. It doesn't help. I've seen how people behave. And some of the times it's not been from a person who's an alcoholic, they just overindulged once, when I was in college, there was one. One colleague, who just drank to excess one night, he wasn't an alcoholic, he never did it again. But he got really sick from all the drinking. He never did that, again, least in the time that I knew him. But you know, it's, it's a problem. And we, we also try to use some of those things to cover up our own fears. And we don't learn to deal with those either. Roberto Carlos Mayer 1:08:13In fact, for whatever it is, most people are in this situation you are mentioning, they get sequenced, they consider it very, very bad to be in that situation. And don't repeat it. But that's another arena where science is still in depth with humanity. And there is a small group of people, which go into addiction very easily that is the but stay saints after using alcohol or other substances is so important for them that they transform themselves in a kind of slaves. Repeat this experience, again and again and again. And medicine already knows that when you repeat this process, the amount of alcohol or other substances, you need to provoke the same result in in your body gets bigger and bigger. So that's the reason why people who start to drink regularly then drink every time more as the in general, this brings huge health problems for people when they don't stop and it beings from other other kinds of what's called the more heavy drugs. In general, are people's people stop earlier because the consequences come up rapidly and Michael Hingson 1:09:52for the people who don't want to face the consequences, and it's not only a problem for them, but it becomes more of a problem for all of us. Yes, Roberto Carlos Mayer 1:09:58and for people who We live with them. That's the point. Yeah. Every single person who's in addiction provokes problems for at least four other people around them. And that's the reason why these support groups exist, because supporting these people is not as a standard public policy, up to this moment in any country in the world, I know. Yeah, governments are into what's called the drug wars, and not about the process of healing families. Some health organizations around the world, help people who are in addiction, but the families around them have very little support. And Michael Hingson 1:10:51so they don't know what to do about it. And when well Roberto Carlos Mayer 1:10:55not really know what to do, but it's so that the addiction changes people's right, you're very radically, right. This is it, this creates emotion, very strong emotions inside us when you live together with up to the point you think you are the worst person in the world, you're having a church problems that nobody else have passed through this. And this is not true. In fact, everyone who goes through this process has the same kind of behavior, but at this is taboo, you have no access to this information, then you are put into this obviously, the first thing we say in support groups, when you come in as you are not alone. There are a lot of people who have gone through the same process. Michael Hingson 1:11:49And that's the real point. And that's the value of support groups is that there are people who have been there they've been they've done that. And if you let them into your lives, and you learn a lot more about how to deal with it, and how to address it. Well, what kind of activities and initiatives do you have coming up? What's next for you? Roberto Carlos Mayer 1:12:11Well, I, I'm I told you at the beginning of our conversation, I am into transforming my abilities in time management and discipline into a methodology is become probably another book will become, obviously, a lot of teachings. And structuring this kind of thing is very, it's a very, has to be done very carefully. Because you are you are involved directly with people's life. So the idea is helping people to live more significantly to balance all areas of life. It's customary that people say I don't have time to do that, and that, but it's just a matter of choices. No, every day, every moment we can choose what we want to do. Michael Hingson 1:13:14Always a bad choice. Roberto Carlos Mayer 1:13:15Yeah, exactly. And choice. So this has to be done very carefully. And I think this this many experiences I've been telling you about has put me into a situation where I can understand the impact of this is it's very different when you talk about something like this with people like us in American scenario or if you look at people in other cultures. So this has to be in respected, but at the same time, humans are although there are differences, we have also similarities which can be explored if we are carefully to to deliver this, I believe worldwide. But this is a huge pretension and I am doing it carefully. So that it really goes through it. I'm not in a hurry to to produce this publicly. But I'm already developed some speeches with some parts of this. I think people are liking it. Well, Michael Hingson 1:14:35I hope it gets translated into English as it gets done and I can I would love to read it. Roberto Carlos Mayer 1:14:42In fact, we'll do the work we are doing in the cultures of movement. We are already developing many things in various languages. And while you were asking me the previous question, I was remembering a phrase from Elizabeth Gilbert now, he wrote that about their share experience traveling in the Middle East and then to the Far East. He was into the film, maybe you heard about her. And she was also a person which addiction problems. And there's a phrase I remember too, when you were talking about religion and spirituality, and he, she says that religions are the way they promise you to save you from hell. And spirituality is for those who have already been in hell. Michael Hingson 1:15:42That point? Well, I want to thank you for being with us. We, we've done well over an hour. And that's fine. That means we've, we've enjoyed it. And I hope everyone listening has enjoyed it. And I really appreciate you being here. And I hope that you listening, enjoyed this and found it useful and inspiring and helpful as well. Love to hear your thoughts. So how can people reach out to you learn about what you do as a consultant and so on? And if they'd like to reach out how do they do that? Roberto Carlos Mayer 1:16:19Well, the easiest way is, I have a website. That personal my personal website is ROberto C. Meyer, my name.com.br is spelled out that I have a QR code projected here in my background where people can access this directly. Michael Hingson 1:16:38Could you go ahead and spell the website? Yes, Roberto Carlos Mayer 1:16:42it's the domain name is. My name is Roberto our R O B E R, T. O. C, which is the initial of my middle name. Mayer my surname M q y e r.com.br. From Brazil, Brazil, right. Michael Hingson 1:17:06Okay. Well, I hope people will reach out. I very much enjoyed this and also want to keep in touch, we can certainly explore that. But I want to thank you. And I also want to thank you for listening. If you'd like to reach out to me any one you're welcome to do that. I'd love to get your thoughts and comments. Feel free to email me at Michaelhi m i c h a e l h i at accessibe A c c e s s i b e.com. Or go to our website, www dot Michael hingson.com/podcast. And hingson is h i n g s o n So www dot Michael hingson.com/podcast. Wherever you're listening, please give us a five star rating. We love those ratings. And we really value them and appreciate them and all of the comments that you want to make. So please give us a five star rating and review the podcast and hope you'll listen to other episodes if you haven't if you just discovered us. Welcome I hope to see you on more of these. And Roberto one last time I want to thank you for being with us and spending all your time. Roberto Carlos Mayer 1:18:10Thanks to you, Michael for your invitation. Michael Hingson 1:18:23You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com . AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

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Bump in the road? Indeed. Meet Pat Wetzel. Pat is a graduate from the University of Pennsylvania and Wharton Business School. She began her professional life working in the finance industry in New York City. We talk about some of that in this episode of Unstoppable Mindset and we even get Pat’s take on today’s economy. Pat’s life changed dramatically when she was diagnosed with a serious neurological disease myasthenia gravis. She went through a divorce and eventually reassessed her entire life. Talk about being unstoppable, to sum it up, Pat decided to continue living. She is one of the relatively few who was diagnosed but fully survived and moved on from her disease. Along the way she discovered soaring-flying high in motorless airplanes. Soaring she began to do not only in airplanes, but with the rest of her life. I think you will be totally inspired by Pat’s story. Four years ago she began the Bump In The Road podcast and just this year she published her first book called, you guessed it, Bump In The Road. Check out Pat Wetzel’s story on our episode this time and I hope you will pick up her book as well as listening to her podcast, after you listen to this one of course. About the Guest: Pat Wetzel, a graduate from the University of Pennsylvania and Wharton Business School, embarked on her adult journey in the bustling city of New York. Little did she know that her path would take a dramatic turn, when she was diagnosed with a serious neurological disease myasthenia gravis. A divorce and the resulting chaos forced her to reimagine her life.A chance encounter with the sport of soaring-flying high tech motorless airplanes cross country-became the portal to unexpected adventure, leading her to soar to new heights, both metaphorically and literally. Her adventures in the air became the back drop for conquering challenges, finding courage and connecting with a greater natural world.Through her experiences, Pat Wetzel has emerged not only as an individual who is wise, but as a podcaster and author with a profound message to share. In "Bump In the Road: 15 Stories of Courage, Hope, and Resilience," she channels her unique perspective, weaving together tales of human strength and triumph. The stories, based on her weekly podcast Bump In The Road, inspire others to navigate life's bumps with hope and to find courage in the face of uncertainty.In this book, Pat's story and the story of her 15 guests is a testament to the unwavering power of the human spirit and a reminder that even amidst the bumps in the road, our potential for growth knows no bounds. Ways to connect with Pat: Website: BumpInTheRoad.usInstagram: Instagram.com/BumpInTheRoad.usTwitter: Twitter.com/CancerRoadTripFacebook: Facebook.com/BumpInTheRDLinked in: https://www.linkedin.com/in/patwetzel/ About the Host:Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children’s Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association’s 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.comhttps://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/https://twitter.com/mhingsonhttps://www.youtube.com/user/mhingsonhttps://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ accessiBe Linkshttps://accessibe.com/https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBehttps://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can also subscribe in your favorite podcast app. Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts. Transcription Notes:

Michael Hingson 00:00Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us. Michael Hingson 01:21Well, Howdy, and welcome to another episode of unstoppable mindset. I am your host, Michael Hinkson. I really am glad that you're here with us today. And today, we're going to chat with Pat Wetzel. Pat is an interesting person by any standard. She is a graduate of University of Pennsylvania and the Wharton School of Business, I'm jealous, but that's okay. She then started out working in New York. And we'll have to have a discussion about best places to buy bagels in New York. But she had a diagnosis that changed her whole life and her whole career. I'm going to leave it to her to talk more about that. And everything that follows. She is also a podcaster. She has a podcast called a bump in the road. And we'll I'm sure talk about that in the course of the day. And she's an author of a book. And guess what the book is entitled bump in the road. Anyway, Pat, welcome to unstoppable mindset. We're really glad you're here. Thank you. Nice to be here. So tell me a little bit about the early Pat growing up and all that sort of stuff. Pat Wetzel 02:28Oh, early Pat. Let's see, I grew up in northern New Jersey in a town called Upper Saddle River. And it was just beautiful countryside as a kid, or as a teenager, of course, you hated it, because the only thing to do was play sports and go to school. But actually, it was really a very idyllic, my family settled deal is spent a lot of time in Europe, which gave me a rather different perspective on the world. From the time I was very young. I knew it was a big world, there were different people and cultures. And I really loved that. And I think that influence the remainder of my life in that I enjoy going into different places. And I think it also gave me a tolerance not just for differences in people and culture, but for a little bit of adventure and risk. Went to school started off in the bond market in New York back in the 80s, which was a very cool time to be in the bond market. But I received a diagnosis of myasthenia gravis, which is a very rare neurologic disease. And it causes weakness in voluntary muscles, which includes your eyes, your mouth, your tongue, the ability to breathe or walk. So it was pretty devastating. It really took my life in a direction I did not anticipate. Not a lot of upside there. But one of the good things that did come out of it was that it gave me a time to pause and get out of the rat race craze, super competitive business world. And I think I look at who I was, which really ended up more from my perspective, was kind of this from as opposed to the eat what you kill side of the spectrum, which is a little bit more market oriented. Michael Hingson 04:14So well tell me more about that. So what did you do? Pat Wetzel 04:20Really, it was survival, quite honestly. I was up in New Haven, in New Haven area. I had a thymectomy at Yale, which is where they remove your thymus, they think they're not even sure that it somehow influences the course of your disease. And indeed, there are some precancerous lesions there. So it was a it was a good move the whole way around. Initially, you're on all these drugs and you're having to titrate these drugs. And it's a matter of at first just not knowing if you're going to live about a third of the people die about a third of the people remain seriously disabled, and about a third go on in life and I was luckily in the latter group. Ah,So okay, we'll tired and things, but it's nothing major, and I'm no longer on any medication. But it um, it is quite life changing, to say the least. Yeah, I would, I would think that it would be Michael Hingson 05:14pulling, removing your thymus and just all of the various things that go along with that it has to be not a very fun thing, do you still go get checkups on any kind of regular basis? Pat Wetzel 05:26No, interestingly, when I started flying, fast forward a decade or so, when I started flying,I was having full time trading my drugs, and one of the problems is having too much in your system gives you the same symptoms as having too little. So you never know you're ahead or behind. So I decided to start weaning myself off my drugs. I did this without medical supervision, I do not recommend anybody do it, no doctor would have taken the risk. But I decided to do it. And indeed, it worked. I might get a little tired or whatnot, I can manage that. And that was really the end of my interface with the medical establishment for that period of my life. Wow. Well, so. So let's go back. So you started in the bond market in the 1980s. Of course, we had the recession in the 1980s, and all the economic things. So typically, as interest rates, well, so as interest rates go up, does that mean that usually bonds go down or they go up, they go down in terms of value, the thing that was really interesting in the corporate market was that all the previous parameters for risk assessment were no longer viable, because the interest rate environment had changed so drastically. So there were new models being created, the rating rating agencies were just so far behind the curve, they weren't very useful in terms of assessing any risk. And it was a very interesting time in that.If you remember, Michael Milken, he really changed the face of corporate finance, in that he made capital accessible to mid tier companies, they never had access to this type of capital before. So it was a really interesting time period financially, but for the aberrations of these incredibly high interest rates, and for the fact that the access to capital was dramatically changing, for much of corporate America. So fast forward, out of curiosity, just to go off of the, the timeline to today. For the past few years, economists have been talking about how we're going to go through this incredibly high level of inflation and, and it's gonna it's gonna cause unemployment as we raise the interest rates to go up. And the reality is that and I was reading an article by Paul Krugman, this morning from the New York Times, a lot of what people predicted just didn't happen at all. What do you think about all that? I think the economy is proven to be a little more resilient than we thought. But I also think government numbers are pretty useless. Years ago, when the numbers made no sense to me, I found a website called Shadow stats.com, which is by math economist. His numbers made sense. The government has revamped their numbers. So many times there's no continuity in terms of trying to ascertain what's actually going on. I think you are starting to see more layoffs. I think that our economy personally is fairly brittle and fragile. i What's going to be the event that said something's off. But if you look at say, banking, everybody's underwater in their bond portfolio, commercial real estate market is plummeted. There was recently a building in San Francisco that I think assessed for 40 or 50% of its value just five years ago. And it's happening in numerous urban areas. The economy is really slow to react to these large changes. It's been slower than I thought it would be. Look at the housing market, for example, interest rates are at 8%. They weren't 3% A few years ago, that's a 5%. That's a 5% change. Typically, the rule of thumb is you see about a 1% 10% change in valuation for every 1% move in interest rates. Well, that would argue for close to a 50% change in market, the market value of real estate assets, but you're not seeing that in a lot of places. I think that we need to be a little patient. I think there are a few things impacting it. And it varies by locale, of course, the media usually oversimplifies so many things and I think they also tend to miss characterize a lot of things. So we were hearing about all this business of inflation. And people keep being told by a lot of politicians that inflation is really high and all that and the prices are really high. Krugman made an interesting observation this morning and which was just because inflation is going down, up there. Michael Hingson 10:00It's not something that directly and certainly immediately controls prices. So inflation may be going down, but we are paying more. And just because inflation drops, that doesn't mean that suddenly we're going to pay less for things. Pat Wetzel 10:14Well, I would argue that that, first of all, go back to the argument that the government numbers for mission are pretty useless. For example, I went into Trader Joe's the other day, and a chicken breast, that rather turkey breast that I bought a year ago ran about $25. It's $50. Now.And I think that the average person going out and having to pay for just the things that we need to I think we would all argue that interest rates have probably been more in the 15% up range. Rather, if price inflation has been 18 Plus, if not more in certain categories. Yeah. And I would also submit that again, Michael Hingson 10:56the numbers are are all over the place. And that's I'm agreeing with you, I think that we're not really seeing Pat Wetzel 11:02something yet, that's really consistent that that really tells us what is going on. But I also think that too many people are politicizing it, rather than trying to come up with a real solution. Nobody wants to do that. They want to just blame everyone else for it. Yeah, I agree with that. And you know, it always comes down in my mind, you said, you have to live within your means. It's okay to borrow with it. But you can't get over your head and debt. There's no free lunch here. I think even the Fed is now coming out and saying that the spending out of Washington is absolutely out of control. That's by the heart. It's not political. It's just reality. And I think that I think we need to return to a saner way of living in personally, I think this model of perpetual growth may not be sustainable, you can't grow forever. Right. Michael Hingson 11:59Not without something else changing in the process, we had a fair amount of credit card debt over a number of years. And my wife, once we moved down here really decided we need to, to not be so much in credit card debt, and literally over about a four or five year period. And she handled all the bills every day was in QuickBooks and quicken and everything else and looking at everything. But you know what, we now don't owe anything on credit cards, except for whatever is due in a given month. And she passed away this past November. And when I decided to do to make sure we don't get in trouble like that, again, was to set every credit card that we have that we use, and we're not even I'm not even using all the ones that we have available. But what I have done is to set them for automatic payment to pay off the entire balance every month. So it really forces me too. And I don't mind doing it at all stay within means and the main thing we do with credit cards, other than going to Costco and buying food every so often is it's all about business. So it's easy, because we have mechanisms to get reimbursed for a lot of the stuff I do for business. So we get to pay everything back and I agree with you, we need to live within our means. For a while we had some challenges and weren't able to do that. That's been a number of years. And so now we will I just make sure that we don't accrue any credit card debt because it's got to be paid off every month. Pat Wetzel 13:38And with you there isn't any material thing I have to have. I just don't need it. Michael Hingson 13:45If there's something I need to have that I've got to save for it. I have wanted a Sonos subwoofer to get bass on my audio system for years, and the son of subwoofers like 800 bucks. That's a fair amount of money. Yeah, but it does sound good, but I wanted it. But I wasn't going to spend the money for it. Until it suddenly I realized that for my business credit card. I accrue points, and I had like almost 1000 points. And so what it really meant was that the subwoofer, because I just suddenly one day on a whim, decided to look in the catalog of of items sold through this point system, and they had the Sonos subwoofer, and it was like 800 points. So I got my subwoofer and it didn't cost anything, which is great. Hey, that's wonderful. And I needed to use some of those points for something. And now they're they're growing again and probably what I'll do is wait and save up for an iPhone. Because for me like with iPhones, I don't need to have the latest and greatest one. And the reality is that the current iPhone On the iPhone 15 is good and has made some significant advances. But the thing that they publicize the most, of course, is the camera, which I don't really care as much about. So I'll probably wait for the 16 before I go off and make a purchase, no one has given me yet compelling reasons why, for my iPhone experience, it would be great to upgrade to the 15 from the 13. Somebody might come along and convince me and if that happens, great, but, you know, I do think we need to live within our means and being very conscious about it. It is certainly something I want to continue. And I and I know that for some people, it's hard, because they don't have the income. But we do have a lot of open jobs. And I wish we could figure out a way to convince people that maybe we need to take different jobs, and maybe we want to take but we can learn and we can at least earn an income. I think with any job you can always learn. And I think that learning is invaluable. Because you've learned something, you take that knowledge board with you, wherever you go, nobody can ever take it from you. Yeah. Well, so you went through challenges and that obviously had to help shape your, your view of things. So what happened after myasthenia gravis, and so on? And what did you What did you do to move forward? Well, I went through a very difficult and it was an interesting period of time, I call it my life wish death wish period. Pat Wetzel 16:31Obviously, I wanted to live, but I have lost everything that ever mattered to me. My in laws, who I loved dearly, my ex husband, who I loved, everybody was just on. And I really just didn't care about what happened. And the thing that's interesting about that, is I became somewhat fearless. And I started learning to fly sail planes. And I eventually ended up buying a high performance sail plane, which of course, I didn't know how to fly, I would have to figure that out since it was a single seat plane. But it was a very interesting period in my life. And I think that experience of being fairly fearless is something I want to take forward with me. So you went through a divorce and all that was because of the myasthenia gravis or other kinds of forces? You know, I'm not going to speak for my ex. 17:27Yeah. Michael Hingson 17:29It's, it's unfortunate, you know, things, things change. And sometimes we just aren't willing to change with it. But I don't know what what happened in your case. I know, for Karen and me, we live together, we were married for 40 years, she's always been in a wheelchair. And I've always been blind, we have undergone changes in our lives, a lot of economic challenges, job issues for a while. And of course, for me as a as a blind person, in fact, for her, but probably more for me.The difficulty in applying for a job is that so many people say well, you're blind, you can't do the job. And the prejudice is run really deep. And so for a while, the job I had was actually I ran my own company. And all of my employees were paid before I was paid. And so for actually three years, we mostly lived on credit cards. And that's all we could do. Because we had employees that we had to pay. And eventually, we did okay. And we sold the company and I went to work for other companies. And we came out of that. And again, eventually we were really able to pay off bills, but it really tests you. And it's a question of how much you're committed to staying with someone just because change has happened. And I think both Karen and I, at various times, had changes in our lives. But we made a strong commitment to stay with each other. And we did. So Karen got sick and 2014 we moved down here, which we never thought we were going to do. And she almost died. She was in the 40% that didn't pass away from double pneumonia with a 90% occlusion of her lungs. And she survived that. But still it it had a great toll on on both of us. But you make the decision to go forward. And she and I did. We talked about it a lot. And we we came through it. And it's all you can do. Well, I'm clapping for you. I think that's a difficult thing to do. And I think that it's the harder path but probably the path where you learn an awful lot. Well it is. I think you you learn a lot more if you are willing to do it and you go back to basic things. We made a commitment in November of 1982 to live with each other and stay married and in sickness and in health and and in money and not all that wasn't really part of the Vows but it was still there. And so we did. But you know, I can appreciate that there are always challenges that come up. And sometimes you have to deal with things. And in your case you you did lose a lot. But you've obviously worked and gone in other directions, right? Pat Wetzel 20:16Yeah, very interestingly, originally, way back when everybody thought I would write, and I'd love to read, I love to write. But I took the more practical path. Now, fast forward several decades, and I'm doing what I originally really wanted to do. You know, with a podcast, I'd have interesting, meaningful conversations every week. It's fabulous. And I'm working on my second book now bump in the road strong women. And it's, it's wonderful. It's a lot of work sometimes, but I really welcome it. And do you can always write another book called a bumpy road. But that's another story. There are no bumps in any one. Michael Hingson 21:01We need others. We could always talk about the pothole in the road. Just another thought, the pothole in the road instead of the bump in the road. Pat Wetzel 21:12Might zoom background, I have this curving road. And somebody said that I the curving road and the twists and turns just as not sufficient that I should actually blow the bridge up. Because that would give a much better sense of what is really like, well, you could have an automated background so every so often, it blows up. Michael Hingson 21:34That reminds me of the old original Addams Family, remember when Gomez Addams would always run the trains and would blow all up? And so just saying that's another thought. Have an automated background and blow up the bridge every so often. I'll work on that. Yeah, there's something to consider. But you so so you have your own business now or what? Well, the the podcasts the book and I'm starting to do public speaking. Okay. And so does the podcast generate income for you, you must have a way of doing an income or have you done some of those suspicious bank robberies we don't know anything about. Pat Wetzel 22:15I bet they talk about my suspicious bank robberies, if you don't mind. But I'm the podcast is about breaks even. And obviously, the books in new revenue stream, Michael Hingson 22:29say that podcasting and writing books for most people is not a huge income stream, at least not individually. Right. How long have you been doing the podcast now? I'm going on my fourth year. Wow. That's pretty exciting. And yeah, I snuck out what's the average? What's the average failure rate or time to failure? For POCs? I think three or four months? Yeah, I think so. We're now two and a half. Well, almost two and a half years into unstoppable mindset. And we actually went from one episode a week to two episodes a week last year, because we were getting so much attention. And people said we want to be on the podcast. So we actually now do two episodes a day a week. And literally today this will tell people about when we're recording, we just upped uploaded and published episode 177. So we're having a lot of fun with it. And people are very kind and we have been getting great reviews and people say nice things. So I guess I can't complain too much. Pat Wetzel 23:34No, I think podcasting is just fabulous. I really do. I am so grateful for the people I meet, I meet the most interesting people. And because we're talking about their bumps in the road, we have meaningful conversations. And that means a great deal to me. Yeah, well, and with unstoppable mindset, as you know, I asked people to tell me what they want to talk about. And that's what we talk about, which is perfectly sensible. Because you don't want you want to talk about and can talk about a whole heck of a lot more than I do. And I think it's important to have conversations and not just do an interview. So this is a lot of fun to do. And, you know, having been on bump in the road, it's a lot of fun to thanks, I I'm very thankful for bump, it really came out of a bump in the road. And it has been, I think one of the most interesting paths I have taken in my life. Michael Hingson 24:31So why did you do it? What what really prompted you to start doing the podcast? Pat Wetzel 24:37I had lined up about a million dollars for a project I was working on called cancer road trip, where every quarter we would give seven people who've been impacted by cancer and amazing bucket list trip. The first trip was Tanzania. So we were looking at you know, Kilimanjaro, the metaphor of a mountain Safari and the metaphor of survival, Tanzania and the spice of life. that type of thing to tell stories against these iconic backups, but COVID hit. So everything shut down everything. Two years, and all the money I put into it were gone. So after being fairly depressed for about two weeks, I needed to do something, yeah, you can only eat so many potato chips, you know. So I decided I need to do something, and if nothing else, just to keep my social media audience that I had developed in place. So I decided to do a podcast, and the idea of a bump in the road came to me. And I didn't know if it would work. I didn't know if I could get anybody. I had no idea what would happen. I knew nothing about podcasting. But I dove in. And here I am, you know, three plus years later going into my fourth year. You do in addition to this, and the fact that you wrote a book and you're writing a new book, do you do any kind of coaching or consulting? Or do you strictly do the podcast and the book, right now I'm working on keynote, a keynote speech, speech, that can be adapted for a variety of environments, I really want to if I prepare enough, I actually enjoy public speaking. And I'm looking forward to combining some fun travel and some speaking over the next year and a half or so. Yeah, home speaking is starting to pick up again, since Karen passed, I now have the time to do it again as well. And now I don't have to worry about leaving her up. So I've started to work on trying to find more speaking engagements and to be able to inspire people. And the reality is there's a lot that we can inspire people about and we can certainly set a tone and a trend. So I look forward to to doing more public speaking again, and we're working on it, it's coming up. Michael Hingson 26:54I actually had an email correspondence with someone yesterday about possibly speaking at an event for them next year, and it was not a person I knew. But I wrote a letter. And it turns out that she read it almost immediately. And she wrote back and I was was humorous in the letter to a degree because apparently she was in a building for a while that burned down. And I said, a building that your building burned down. What a way to force people to work remotely rather than being in the office. Pretty clever way to do it. And she wrote back actually saw it this morning, she said, your letter came right at the right time. It was a down day yesterday, and you really brighten my day. But you know, I think that that's kind of the part of me. I love humor. Not in a negative way. But I love humor. And I love to try to get people to smile and laugh. Every time I go through a TSA kiosk and meet the TSA people. They always say, Where's your I need your boarding pass and your ID and I'll give him the boarding pass. I say but I need your ID and I said what did you do lose yours? You know, things like that. And they say, Oh, they have they have? Or during COVID When it was at a time when I would be wearing a mask? And I still do. But I would also say What do you mean, you want my ID? I'm wearing a mask? How are you going to be able to tell who I am? Oh, we're going to ask you to take your mask off. And I said, Well, I'm still just going to look like this piece of paper. What does that do for you? Yeah, but it's it's all about making them laugh. And I think it's important. Humor, in a good way has to be part of what we do. Because like with those people, it's such a thankless job, you know? Well, I think humor is important a lot. It gives you a little perspective. And life is short, enjoy it, enjoy the ride. And I think part of enjoying it is having a sense of humor. Otherwise, how do you survive? Yeah, it's important to be able to laugh at things and laugh at yourself, and help other people laugh because it is so hard to do. And we live in such a serious world. Today, with so many things going on. We need to find ways to lighten up and smile. So you know, I think it is really important. Can you tell us anything about what your keynote is, is looking like it will be about Pat Wetzel 29:23your strong women. My next book is a bump in the road strong women. I've interviewed some amazing women. And that's what I'm going to focus on. 29:33Well, Pat Wetzel 29:35I'm really looking forward to it. Do you have a publisher? Or are you self publishing? Or how are you doing the books, self published and I've looked at the publishing options. So the reality is to get a top notch publisher, you have to be famous, essentially, I have about 80,000 people on my social media following and frankly, that doesn't even turn anybody's head anymore. If you go the hybrid route I interviewed and now Pat Wetzel 29:59number of well known publishers for the hybrid route. And reality is I'm doing more than they would do to market my books right now. Michael Hingson 30:11So I don't think that they bring a lot of value to the equation. So for the moment, I think self publishing looks like a way for me to go, Well, yeah, publishing in general, doesn't do the marketing in the stuff that it used to do. And they do want you to be a major contributor to the marketing effort if they publish your book at all. And I think it's possible to get books published, and there's value in using a publisher, if you can get them to read your book. Michael Hingson 30:41But at the same time, not everyone can do that, or wants to put that time into the marketing effort, which, which is part of the challenge. I think there are a lot of great books out there. My belief is everyone has a story to tell. And I wish more people would tell their stories, which is why we have unstoppable mindset. And you have Pat Wetzel 31:00likewise bump in the road? Absolutely. I, I think people's stories are amazing. I think we can learn so much each other. And it can really expedite our own learning curves, if we will just stop and really listen and feel. Because when you feel that wisdom seeps into you, it permeates you in a way that just a superficial story won't. Will Tell me a little bit more about bump in the road, when when did you publish it? And what's it about? Published in us just a September, so it's fairly new, we did hit Amazon Best Selling status, which was great. But I a bump in the road really came about because after about a little over a year, maybe years of doing the podcast, I was so moved, and so taken by the stories of my guests, that this wisdom just had a share. And I had a fairly unique perspective on all these stories. Because I have a 30,000 foot view, I hear everybody's story. And across all these stories, I see all these common elements that permeate them. And I thought, there's just so much to learn here from all these people. So that was the the orig origin of bump in the road, the initial book was twice as long as it is now. I had to cut it down. I probably have material for about 10 books, I just have to find the time to write them at this point. Yeah, well, you know, it's only so much one could do in a day, or you just have to work faster. Pat Wetzel 32:32Well, actually, you were talking about doing publishing twice a week in your podcast. But podcast is bumped through the spring of 2024 At this point, and I'm beginning to feel as though that's rude. I don't want people to wait because their stories are great. And I've been thinking that maybe what I need to do is, if possible, work harder to open up some time actually to write more. 32:54Yeah, Michael Hingson 32:56it is. It's valuable. We we wrote thunder dog and Susie flora and I did thunder dog. And it was published in 2011. And we were very blessed that Thomas Nelson publishing, took it on. They're the largest Michael Hingson 33:11Christian publisher in the world. Now they're part of HarperCollins. Michael Hingson 33:15And that has been a great relationship that has now gone on for 12 years. And I can't complain very much about any of that. They've been very supportive, and it continues to go well. Then we did self published running with Roselle. That was the second book. And that was more for kids, talking about what it's like to be a blind child growing up and a guide dog growing up, and then we meet and we ended up in the World Trade Center. But it wasn't nearly as much about the World Trade Center. But I've experienced both. We're writing a new book about learning to control fear. And we do have a publisher for that. And I expect we'll get some good things out of that. So it's it's pretty cool. Pat Wetzel 33:58That's interesting learning to control fear. What are some of the key factors in that? Michael Hingson 34:05I think the biggest thing is that we need to recognize that most of what we're afraid of is stuff that we can't control. And we just talk ourselves into a being afraid. And we've never learned how to stop fearing things. unexpected things happen are happening in our lives. And yes, there are physiological things that occur. But at the same time, what what we can do Michael Hingson 34:29is learn that fear is a very powerful tool. So I learned all that I could about what to do in the World Trade Center and how to function in the World Trade Center, what the emergency evacuation procedures were, and so on. And the result of all that was when an emergency actually did happen. I knew what to do. And I knew and I didn't even think about the fact that I was creating a mindset for that. As I was studying everything I could have Michael Hingson 34:59At the World Trade Center where things were, I love to tell people you could drug me in the World Trade Center and take me anywhere and drop me off. And when I woke up, I would know where I was within like about five seconds, because I knew the complex, I didn't need to read signs. And I think that's something that everyone needs to do is I create ppreciate eyesight, I value it. Michael Hingson 35:21But I also think that we spend too much time relying just on eyesight, and not our other senses. And the fact of the matter is that fear is something that often comes up because we think that things are unknown, that don't need to be unknown. So we don't really look at why we're afraid of things, we don't tend to be introspective, we don't tend to analyze. And those are all things that we should do, and learn, most important of all, only to worry about the things that we really can control and not worry about the rest, because it's not going to do us any good. That's true. I don't What do you think? How do you feel after you've moved through fear? What do you think some of the lessons are from overcoming fear? Well, I think of course, it depends on exactly what the situation is. But I think the important thing is that when you're afraid of something, or something happens, that causes you to be afraid, there will come a time when you're going to as you just pointed out, move through the fear, right? And what you need to do is to then stop and take the time, even if it's before you go to sleep at night, but take the time to look at why was I afraid? What was really going on? Did I really need to be afraid of this? And yes, there are certainly times where that is an issue when something happens that is is what would would cause a fear reaction. But most of the time, the things that we're afraid are going to happen, never do. But we tend to build up this fear. And we never then go back and look at why was I really afraid of that what what really is the motivator that I need to look at and re address so that I'm not afraid of that in the future. So I think it is an issue that, you know, that we do need to look at. But we we also have grown up so much not learning about how to deal with fear. And we live in a society today where people are learning not to trust each other or anyone. And that's why it's our third book is being called Live like a guide dog. Dogs love unconditionally. But dogs do not trust unconditionally. But the difference between dogs and people are, is that dogs are unless something really horrible has happened to them. Dogs are open to trust. And we should find better ways to be open to trust. If somebody doesn't earn our trust, that's fine, then you don't deal with that. But we we are even open to dealing with trust, and the possibility that we can trust someone because we figure everybody has their own agendas. I think trust is really important. My favorite trust story actually comes from Mary Neal, who's in my book. She's an orthopedic surgeon, she ran the Spine Center at USC. And she and her husband were kayaking and Chile, as she went over a waterfall was well within her ability range, but she got trapped underneath it and she died. Her story is this is a near death experience story. Pat Wetzel 38:27Once she finally made it back to Jackson Hole through a remarkable series of coincidences, she was very badly hurt, she had to heal. And she's studying or trying to convince herself that her near death experience did not happen. Because she was a linear tangible scientist, who could if you see measure it, surely it doesn't exist. And at the end of that, she realized that her spiritual experience was indeed very real. And she as she says, and I just love this, she moved from hope to trust. Pat Wetzel 39:01What an incredible paradigm shift in how you view the world, and how you view your spirituality. Michael Hingson 39:09Yeah. And, and it makes perfect sense that the problem with science, to some degree, is as you said, if you can't measure it, it can't be so even though now we've learned to measure or observe things that we never did before. And we've learned that maybe things aren't quite as we think. But But science also tends to, Michael Hingson 39:36as you said, be very linear and linear. And the reality is the world isn't linear. Now, I think the world is has many mysteries to show us yet. Yeah. And that's what makes it fun. I've always loved the internet, because the internet is such a treasure trove of information. And it's fun to just go exploring and learning about different things in the internet and for me how Michael Hingson 39:59Be not seen my entire life, Michael Hingson 40:03I find the internet a really fun place to go and experience a lot of things that I never otherwise probably would have been able to experience. It is an alternative that makes data available to me. Pat Wetzel 40:17I agree as it was interesting, I was having a conversation earlier with somebody who asked me how I found the guests for my podcast. And I'm very fortunate now that people contact me all the time. And I don't have to look as I did. But I really enjoy the process of looking for guests. Because it takes me off on these explorations, I would never think of Pat Wetzel 40:41people whose paths otherwise I would never crossed. And it can just be from going down a rabbit hole on the internet, you run an interesting person, and they're just somebody you have to meet. I find the web just fascinating in that regard. Yeah, well, and I have found that with LinkedIn, and the Internet and and other things as well. And it's so fun when you get to meet somebody whose experiences are different than you. I tell people all the time, as far as I'm concerned, if I'm not learning as much, from my guess, as anyone else, that I'm not doing my job? Well, I think meeting people is a learning experience. And I think part of the key to learning is learning to listen, I've been on a little bit of a rant about this lately, on my side trips, which are super short podcasts under five minutes. Pat Wetzel 41:32I, I one of the things I would love to convey to people is learn to tell a good story. Pat Wetzel 41:40Telling a story is making it experiential. I mean, if you go on a trip, don't bore me with a litany of I do this, I did that I saw this, I saw that I did like this. Instead, tell me about an experience. Tell me about a fabulous meal, an incredible location. Tell me something experiential. You know, the best salespeople in the world are people who tell stories, and who get you to relate to their product and what they want to talk with you about by telling stories. Now, it still may be that what they have, isn't going to do the best for you. And they should be honest about that as well. But good salespeople tell stories, and that always enhances what they do, and what you learn from it. I think stories are incredibly powerful. And our personal stories are powerful, they're inspiring. I think that they are so full of wisdom, that it it puts all of us to stop and listen to each other because we just might learn something. And we might just find some real empathy for other people's. Michael Hingson 42:50The other thing that I would say is and you're talking about creating a keynote address, put stories in it. I'm sure that's not magic to you. But I think that it's important for people to relate to you. And they'll do that best with stories. I have always believed that I don't talk to an audience. When I go speak, I talk with an audience. And I look to see how they react to different things that I say. And I've learned how things that I talk about when I'm talking about them, affect people. And I've learned how much of relationship and rapport I've been able to establish with audiences by how they react to different things that I say it takes a breath or whatever. And I think that that's so important. I heard a speech once by someone who was talking about one subject relating to September 11. And they just went down this list of people. And they talked for 20 minutes, but there was no story. It was one of the one of the most boring things that I've ever heard. Michael Hingson 44:01And I've heard some people I've attended some speeches, where people are talking about financial things, people in the financial industry, and how boring they are because they're just reciting facts and figures. And don't do anything to relate to the average audience. I think that's very true. I was listening to somebody talk about a financial book they wrote recently. Oh my god, I just had to get the combination. It was so boring. I just Pat Wetzel 44:30and there were no stories just as you're saying. Michael Hingson 44:34So Michael Hingson 44:36what's the the format or what is what is the book bump in the road? Pat Wetzel 44:41The format are it's 15 stories about remarkable people. And each of those people represent a theme there some some of the themes would certainly be courage. Hers take a different path. Pat Wetzel 44:56Oh, they're just a travel is a theme in it 44:59today Pat Wetzel 45:00is a big theme. I think authenticity actually is a theme that shows up in each and every story. I think each person after hitting a bump in the road, really pause to search for what is the right path forward for them. And each person finds a unique way to do that. Authenticity is a really interesting thing. And you have said that quieting your mind is a very important thing to deal with. When you're addressing personal authenticity. Why is that? I think learning to quiet your mind is first a totally learnable skill, found the most profound skills you can ever learn, and you need it in your arsenal. Because until you can learn to quiet your mind, still in peace internally, you can't learn to listen or observe your thoughts. Otherwise, your your mind just runs and runs and runs. And often the thoughts that occur to you may really be thoughts that are planted by you know, your societal surroundings, your parents, your employer, the expectations of life around you. But when you can learn to be still you can learn to observe your, your thoughts, and when ability comes awareness. Now you can consciously choose your thoughts. And that awareness is astonishing, it really gives you choice, at least a reflection. Personally, I'm a big fan of meditation to achieve that. And an hour of meditation is that it's experiential. That's where it really changes your life. And that's where learning occurs. There's joy and magic in endless silence, and there's profound peace. And once you experience that peace, it's not a no, it's not an intellectual thing. It's a heartfelt knowing that there is this piece that is always there, and always accessible. And you bring that all of a sudden into your everyday life, you know, road rage, who needs it, who cares, you have peace with you. It's really life changing. And there's so many different ways to meditate. You can use sound, it might be in sport, it could be in walking, it could be in gardening, it can be in sitting, I really fan, I really urge everybody to explore how meditation might be been might be beneficial for your life. And there, you've answered the question about controlling fear to a very large degree. If you stop and listen to yourself, and really are willing to take that step back, you'll learn so much that you'll never learn any other way. I've been a very great fan the last few months of saying Not that I'm my own worst critic when I think about things, but I'm my own best teacher. Because really, I'm the only one who can teach me other people can offer information. But I'm the only one that can really teach it to me. And I much prefer the positivity of I'm my own best teacher. And if people would really take the time to silence and step back, and listen. It's amazing how much you'll learn. Pat Wetzel 48:04And I think ultimately, the this road trip called Life is ideally a trip towards ever greater authenticity. And that demands that you stop and listen and make conscious choices about how you react, how you see things, and then ultimately be open to a broader world, and open to new experiences that can also help change and mold you. Michael Hingson 48:29Who are some of your favorite guests from a bump in the road. Pat Wetzel 48:35Every single one of them, I really can't pick a favorite. Pat Wetzel 48:39One that I thought was really very powerful was Effie Parks's story. She's a mom, and she was pregnant and happy and excited for the perfect child who's going to grow up and be a star and be an astronaut and whatnot. And our child was born with some very nice genetic defects. It was a tremendously isolating experience for her because as her friend's children grew, her her son, person the same way, and she had a 24/7 responsibility with a very disabled child. And her story really changed when she just found love in her situation. And finding that love just changed everything about her outlook and her perspective. And I love that story. Because I think it's a story for all of us. And I think it's a very profound story about how our perspective really shapes the way we view the world and how we have choice in how we view the world. So Michael Hingson 49:41in thinking about that, she found meaning in what she was doing, why is it really important to find the meaning of life for you? I think everybody needs to have meaning. Otherwise, what is the point Pat Wetzel 49:55are really just floating through through life and then we die. I think that Pat Wetzel 50:00You need meaning to motivate you, to help you get up every morning to rest, to learn to achieve capabilities in different areas, I think meaning is one of the critical pieces of a well lived life, though a bump in the road is all about a bump in the road of life. Michael Hingson 50:21And how do you navigate? What are some of the keys to navigating bumps in the road? Now? That's a great question. Pat Wetzel 50:30I think one of the themes, there are numerous themes. Certainly one is courage, we talked about fear earlier, be willing to face your fear and move through it. I think authenticity is a very an identity are very strong themes. I think these people had to look at their lives, strip away the pieces of them that no longer worked, and find a new person underneath it, find their most authentic person, and move forward with that. And generally, they were committed to really continuing that type of internal dialogue and practice as life went on. Pat Wetzel 51:08I think that one of the reasons I am fascinated by the idea of a bump in the road is What does teach us to navigate this, we all have to figure it out for ourselves. And that's a little crazy, there really are certain things that we can do, such as having courage, such as being willing to strip away these false identities that we all have, as a result of just moving through this side. Pat Wetzel 51:32I think that as we listen to each other stories, we can just learn so much, so much about these bumps. And I think it all comes down to willing to be open to change. A lot of people don't really change, they like the status quo, they like the comfort of being in their comfort zone. But the reality is the magic outside your comfort zone that the magic is. And the magic is in the present moment. Because in that moment, you can make a change. And you can then sculpt that the next moment, and the next. And that means getting out of your mind, getting into your heart getting into the present. And I think that's a lesson about how to blow these bumps. And the reality is, so what does that really do? It widens your comfort zone, and you learn to be more comfortable than you were before with a with a broader perspective, which makes perfect sense. Pat Wetzel 52:29And I think, as you bought in your comfort zone, and as you go through that type of activity again and again, you become more and more open to this amazing world we live in. Michael Hingson 52:40And it really is an amazing world. It's an incredible place where there is so much that we get to explore and so much that we get to do. Michael Hingson 52:50I, I get very frustrated so often because people are so I'm curious. Michael Hingson 52:58After September 11, I thought this was an amazing story. One of the things that I did the next month was I went to British Columbia to speak to a guided group. And they arranged for me to do some different interviews on Canadian Broadcasting Corporation, television. And I was on one show, but before the show, I was in the green room with several people, including somebody from a major Think Tank, who was a past Prime Minister of Canada. Michael Hingson 53:28And this was just after we, in the United States invaded Afghanistan. And so I asked this person, what do you think of George W. Bush? And they paused for a second and then said, Michael Hingson 53:45the real thing about him is he's the most uncurious person that I've ever met and ever knew. He relies on everyone and doesn't ever really explore for himself. I never expected that kind of an answer, but I can appreciate it. And it's so true for so many of us. We just don't explore for ourselves. We just take what people tell us and then we go on. I think that's very true. And I think cultivating curiosity should be high on everyone's list. Because it opens opens doors you would never expect. Oh, absolutely. Michael Hingson 54:23I remember my father when we lived in Chicago was a TV repairman. He and my uncle owned a shop. And he said to me a few times when I was there and they were working on TVs he said no, don't stick your hands inside the TV because you'll get a shock. And I don't think I ever deliberately did it. But I got close enough a couple of times that I did get a shock. Michael Hingson 54:45I only used one hand Michael Hingson 54:48and and he said you know what did I tell you? And I said Well, I I didn't say anything I said yeah. He said let me unplug it and then you can look inside and he unplugged it and made sure things were discharged. I got to look Michael Hingson 55:00inside of a television, which back in those days was all about vacuum tubes and other things. So as before, as they say TV went dark, and it was all transistors, but he encouraged curiosity. And I think that that's so important that we all need to encourage curiosity. And also, I realize it's gotta be a real tough world for kids right now. And parents need to recognize you can't helicopter your kids, you can't shelter your kids, you can watch. But you got to let kids grow up. I read an article a couple of weeks ago, that was talking about what's the most important thing that we can do for children today? And the answer basically, was let kids explore, it doesn't mean that you don't monitor them. But we have to find ways to let children explore and learn more about the world. And I understand there's a lot of terrifying things out there. But if we don't let children explore, they're never going to learn. And this article pointed out that all they do is they grew up being afraid. Pat Wetzel 56:00You know, I think that's true, we're probably close to the same age. And when we were growing up, nobody wore helmets, we rolled in the dirt. You know, we just didn't have this fear, that seems to be bred into a lot of young people today. And I would wish for anybody who's young, to please pursue whatever interests you. And you have so much at your disposal, at this disposable. Everything on the web, my gosh, you can learn almost any these days, it's it's just remarkable. And you as a young person, your mind is so agile and open, quit, pursue whatever it is that spins your wheels. I do think that in reality, things like wearing a helmet that you mentioned, and other things are important. Because if you are in an accident, and they will help protect you, but you shouldn't do it out of fear. You should do it because we've learned how to advance and use tools and technology to help us be better and stay safer. It. It shouldn't be done out of fear, though. And that's the problem. Pat Wetzel 57:12Oh, I agree with but I'll also throw in one other thing. There's nothing like the wind moving through your hair. Yep. As your race down a hill. It's fun. It's exhilarating. It connects you to the world around you. So I think that there's a place for safety. And I think there's a place for risks. Oh, absolutely. No question about that. But But I think that one, they're not mutually exclusive. And one doesn't preclude the other and you just need to, to be wise about what you do. Tell me a little bit more about you and sail planning. That is a lot of fun. Pat Wetzel 57:51I kind of stumbled into it. To tell you the truth. I never expected to fly. But I was on a cross country trip. And I stopped at the Calistoga This was back Oh around 89 or so. And back then we'll country was still. It wasn't as polished as it is now. And Cal Stoeger was kind of a dumpy little town at the north end Valley. And I noticed that there was a runway and airport runway that intersected the Main Street. And I thought this is so strange. And so I went over to check it out. They had glider rides. So I took the ride in really well me that it was okay, but didn't allow me. Went back got back. And I heard about some lawyers of poor flying South Plains on weekends. And I invited myself out for a three day weekend. And I was hooked. And that was just the beginning of the end. I went on to move to another club. That was very competitive. Everybody had these beautiful high tech planes. I got it a plane. And I learned to I really learned to soar. It's a metaphor, and it's a sport. How far have you sort? That is? What's the longest flight you've been able to take? Oh, gosh, I'll say about 500 kilometers. Wow. And what do you do with the end of it? Do you? Do you turn around or do somebody come pick you up? Or what hope you land at the same airport? Oh, all right. So you go in a circle, you're not going in a straight line? Well, you can somebody a lot of people do straight out flights. I mean, there's it's it becomes a sport after a point where you're going for time you're going for distance you might go for altitude. Pat Wetzel 59:35And the other challenges in them I think in general with cross country soaring. Part of the challenge and the risk is getting back to your home airport. Because if you land out when I was flying, I started playing in the 90s before cellphones. So when you landed out, you didn't have GPS, you didn't know exactly where you were. You didn't have a phone. You had to make sure your plane was you know Pat Wetzel 1:00:00saved, then you had a hike out, find a phone somewhere. Hopefully they knew where you were, call back to the airport hope somebody picked up the phone and hope that some people would come and get you and help disassemble the plane and get it out of what field he lived in. Michael Hingson 1:00:19Landed in. So it was really been an adventure on a number of levels. I remember when I was growing up in Palmdale, my father worked at Edwards Air Force Base, we went to the air shows every year. And I don't know what it was one year, there were a large number of gliders that were participating in the airshow. And this one pilot got in his plane. And he fluid not up in the air. But literally, he was able to just get it up on his wheels are on one wheel. And he flew the plane on the ground just in one position, but it didn't tip over. And he did it for like about a half hour, which was kind of fascinating. Wow, that is interesting. No, I think Pat Wetzel 1:01:04I think soaring is just an amazing sport on so many levels. And I think it's most amazing, because you're glitched to be able to do this, you work hard to get the skills. I mean, they're not given they don't come overnight. But the idea of wearing down a mountain lion or being up at over 30,000 feet. And just having this incredible view of the Earth from above. In a craft that is Island. Barron Hilton once wrote, Barron Hilton, founded Hilton Hotels and had a ranch in Nevada. And he sponsored an international soaring competition every year. And he has a book where he wrote, There was a foreword in the book by Baron Hill. The book is called silence in the wind. And he noted that a sail plane was a craft fueled only by the mind of the pilot. Pat Wetzel 1:01:56I can see why. And I think that's a great metaphor again for life. The decisions you make the peace, you find your work with the invisible energy around. And that's how you got your life. Now, do you still sore? No, I still be playing a number of years ago, I think I risk parameters were changing, hanging out 100 miles from the middle of nowhere, hoping somebody would come get you was getting old. Michael Hingson 1:02:22You just needed to turn around sooner. There you go. 1:02:28Well, Pat Wetzel 1:02:30another question about bumps in the road, the book, you have an online companion to it. Tell me about that. Yeah. I, I wanted it to be a multimedia experience and allow people to delve deeper into the stories, I have some very edited excerpts from some of the key parts of the cast each of my guests, but you can listen to the full podcast, which is in some cases only available as a subscriber. It's free for everybody buys the book, there's video, there are pictures so you can get a more comprehensive view of the guest. And I also have a workbook, because I think that the wisdom in all these stories is something we can explore within ourselves. And I give people some prompts and some ideas for how to take this wisdom and how to take these stories and apply them to their own lives for their own benefit. Is there an audio version of bump in the road? Pat Wetzel 1:03:25The audio version is actually being recorded right now as we speak. And I think it should be available in two or three weeks. Oh, good, because then I can buy the book and get the full subscription to the podcast. Absolutely. That's super. Where can people get bumps in the road? Amazon, of course. Michael Hingson 1:03:45Makes sense. Well, that's, that is really cool. Well, I really am grateful that you came on and spend some time with us today, talking about all of the things that we got to talk about. If people want to reach out to you. How do they do that? Pat Wetzel 1:04:00They're the website bump in the road.us. The mail is talk t a l k @thebumpintheroad.us. There's a ton of information on the website interviews, audio visual components, it's a great website quite honestly, please come and explore it. Michael Hingson 1:04:19Well, I hope people will. Michael Hingson 1:04:22You are fascinating. You've got a lot of good stories and you've offered a lot of really great information and wisdom that I think we should all take advantage of and I really value and appreciate you being here and if you hadn't sold your plane I would save that someday I'll be back there we could go soaring. I've never done it. We'd love to but we'll figure something Michael Hingson 1:04:43that sounds good. But thank you for for being here. I want to thank you for listening we value your thoughts so as always, please feel free to send me an email at Michaelhi at accessibe.com That's m i c h a e I h i at accessibe A c c e s s i b e.com, or go visit our podcast page, www dot Michael hingson.com/podcast. So that's www.michaelhingson.com/podcast. And we would love to get your thoughts. Wherever you're listening, please give us a five star rating we value your readings. But most important of all, we really value hearing from you we value your your thoughts, and input. And if you know of somebody who should be a guest on unstoppable mindset, please let us know please introduce us. Same for you pad if you know someone who ought to be a good guest, we would really appreciate it. And sounds like you know a number of people because you've written about them. So hopefully we'll have the chance to meet some of those people and get them on unstoppable mindset as well. But again, I want to thank you for being with us and being a part of unstoppable mindset today. Pat Wetzel 1:05:51Thank you very much that a wonderful conversation. And I'm very grateful to be here. Michael Hingson 1:06:01You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com . AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

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I would like you to meet one of Canada’s top 100 black women to watch, Chenai Kadungure. Chenai and I had a quite engaging conversation this episode. She grew up in Zimbabwe where she went through high school. She then left her homeland and traveled elsewhere. She received her second Master’s degree from the University of North Carolina in 2016. She now resides in Toronto and serves as the executive director of the Ontario Black Physicians Association. She and I discussed topics such as authenticity, diversity and leadership. Chenai has many life observations that are quite interesting and worth your time to hear. About the Guest: Chenai is a passionate, dynamic professional with proven experience building vital relationships and leading impactful programs and projects. Voted one of Canada's Top 100 Black Women to Watch, a Globant Inspiring Leader nominee and an RBC and Global News Hometown Hero, she is an intuitive leader able to build relationships at all levels, in diverse communities. She is an analytical futurist that is highly adaptable, and fearless in solving complex problems. An energetic motivational public speaker and keynote, Chenai pours herself into everything she does. As a proud Rotarian and President of the Global Partners in Peace remains one of "Service Above Self". Ways to connect with Chenai:Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/chenai-kadungureInstagram: @chenkad About the Host:Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children’s Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association’s 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.comhttps://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/https://twitter.com/mhingsonhttps://www.youtube.com/user/mhingsonhttps://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ accessiBe Linkshttps://accessibe.com/https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBehttps://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can also subscribe in your favorite podcast app. Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts. Transcription Notes:

Michael Hingson 00:00Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us. Michael Hingson 01:20Well, hello, and welcome to another episode of unstoppable mindset. And today we get to talk with someone from Toronto, Canada. I'm going to probably well I'm going to do my best to pronounce her name first name is Chenai and her last name is Kadungure, Kadungure, or something close to that. There's a D in it. But people if you're speaking appropriately, you don't pronounce the D but some people do and my screen reader does it actually makes her last name, Kadungure. Her. So there you go figure that out. And I it's technology. But we really are glad to have you here on unstoppable mindset. Chenai is a very passionate individual. She helps to build dynamic and valuable relationships. And she has been voted one of the top 100 Black Women to Watch in Canada. And that's worth doing. So Chenai, welcome to unstoppable mindset. Chenai Kadungure 02:20Yes, I'm so glad. I'm so glad and excited to be here. Thanks, Michael. Michael Hingson 02:26Well, thank you for being here. We're really grateful that you are taking the time to do it. And we're doing something a little bit different today, everyone, we're doing this on a Saturday, we normally do things during the week. And it is 630 in the afternoon in Toronto, so we don't want Chenai to starve. So we'll move right along. But we'll have a lot of fun doing this, I'm sure. And we'll we'll go from there. So why don't we start I love to start this way. Tell me a little bit about kind of the early Chenai growing up and so on. Chenai Kadungure 02:57The early Chenai I was a bit of a troublemaker I was I went to a Dominican convent High School in Harare, Zimbabwe. And I think I've always been someone who just goes their own lane. So I I will say that the early tonight is not too different. And I just a little bit less responsible, maybe. Michael Hingson 03:21So how long were you in Zimbabwe? Chenai Kadungure 03:24all the way till I was 18. Our economy then crashed. We basically had to do what you know, I guess people call it like economic migrants, we all had to sort of study in South Africa and overseas. So I went to South Africa for my undergrad and my first master's. And then after about five years of working I went to North Carolina for a second master's and ended up in Toronto. So I've I've traveled around. Michael Hingson 03:56So when you were in North Carolina, did you drink sweet tea? Chenai Kadungure 04:02Oh, yes. Lori has diabetes in a cup. But I did enjoy it. I mean, we were colonized by the British. So tea is very common for us back home to Well, Michael Hingson 04:17I like tea. I like hot tea. It's people who listen to this regularly or who have read my book thunder dog. No, I love PG Tips tea and it's so it's a hot, vibrant British tea. I've never been a great fan of sweet tea just because it is too sweet for me. But I appreciate it. And I'm glad people like it. I was actually talking with someone from North Carolina yesterday and they were asking me if I liked sweet tea and I said the same thing that I'm not a great sweetie fan. But on the other hand, I love sausage biscuits. So that's that's another one from South from North Carolina. But Chenai Kadungure 04:55we do what we can hmm I still missed the Bojangles though I think Yeah, that is my favorite Carolinian product. Michael Hingson 05:06Well, there you go, Well, you know, it's a fun area. And so what? What took you? Well, let me start this way when you went in got your Bachelor's in your first master's, what were they in? Chenai Kadungure 05:18Okay, my undergrad was media sociology and Gender Studies. And then I got more and more into the sociology side of thing wanting to understand how society works, why society looks the way it is. So my first master's was a master of philosophy and diversity studies. So before diversity studies was hip, I always tell people I cared about diversity. There Michael Hingson 05:43you go. So that was your first master's and what was your second one when you went to North Carolina? Chenai Kadungure 05:48I went to North Carolina on a Rotary Peace Fellowship. It was one of those will be World Peace fellowships. I'm a Rotarian. Well, now I'm a Rotarian. But back then you can't do the fellowship if you're a rotary. So I went to the Duke UNC Peace Center, and we always say peace is possible. If a Tar Heel and a Dookie can get along. Oh, yeah. Michael Hingson 06:14Well, so there, there are three of courses NC, UNC and Duke. And that's a combination to try to make peace between. Chenai Kadungure 06:25Yes, I think the basketball is usually where it all comes to a head. But yes, there are days where it's not safe to wear a certain type of blue. Michael Hingson 06:36Yeah, well, I understand. And basketball is the thing. I was there once, just when I think it was. And UNC and NC State were playing to see who was going to I think have top bragging rights in the conference. Or maybe well, no, it wasn't duke it was UNC and NC State. And all TV was preempted by the game. Needless to say, there's no no surprise. Oh, Chenai Kadungure 07:09yes. Oh, yes. People live, eat and breathe. And I'd say that's the equivalent of I guess a hockey here. Michael Hingson 07:13Yeah. Yeah, you've got hockey up there. You've got the Maple Leafs, and, and, and all of that well, so What took you from North Carolina, then to Toronto? So Chenai Kadungure 07:26I've always had a cousin, who's here, and she always used to say, come to Canada. And I always used to tell her. Sorry, it's too cold. And then, as the years went by, I started hearing some good things about Canada. And I thought, you know, it's worth a shot. Since I was already in North America. I figured this is the next step. So I came here, and I just, I really love being here. I enjoy being here. Michael Hingson 07:51How long have you been there? Chenai Kadungure 07:54So since 2018, I did a one year stint in Malawi with care Canada, and then came back. So give or take, I guess its own five going on six years. Wow. Well, Michael Hingson 08:06you moved around some needless to say, Chenai Kadungure 08:10I am a traveler. I didn't I think that's my, that's my, if people have arrest language minus travel, there's something about being somewhere else that just, it helps me. Michael Hingson 08:22Do you get bored being in one place too long, or you just love to travel and experience new things and still like to have a home base? Chenai Kadungure 08:30I think it's both and I I love encountering a new culture and, you know, trying new foods and, you know, being able to experience a place for myself, because I think we all have a stereotypical idea of what parts of the world look and feel like. But I think when you're there something about it helps you appreciate the otherness, but also appreciate where you're from, or where you live. And so I feel like there's something that always brings me back to myself when I do that. But also, it's the I think it's the cultures right? Work. I think work life balance culture. Around the world is something I enjoy. I feel like we are high on urgency culture here. So sometimes I need to physically be in a different place to get myself to rest. Michael Hingson 09:18Do you think it's different up there than it is here in the US? Chenai Kadungure 09:23I feel like we I think we might be balanced. I hear people say some things that are similar like it I feel like people kind of brag on how productive and how busy they are. In North America, where is it? Mita I'm originally Zimbabwe. And I think that the work life balance is a little bit different than even when I spent some time in the Caribbean same kind of thing. Michael Hingson 09:46Yeah, well, and you said the urgency culture and that it just makes sense. I think that we are so locked into having everything instant urgency and so on and we've got to do it. Now, it is it is unfortunate because it doesn't necessarily go that way. We haven't really learned to pace. And we want a lot of things now that we don't have any control over, and then we get mad when we don't get them. Chenai Kadungure 10:14This is true. But it was like, it's it's also about the external expectation of us, right. But I think if the most productive thing we could do in a day was to rest or to, you know, lose the desire for control or things like that, I think we had a different metric, we might do things differently, but I think the dominant culture is you need to be as busy as everyone else. Michael Hingson 10:38Yeah, that seems to be the way it goes. And, and the, the flow of activity these days. And the problem is we lose some perspectives about that, which is, which is a little unfortunate. But what do you do? So what have you been doing since you got your master's degrees? I'm assuming that while you were doing that you were pretty much busy full time with being a student? Chenai Kadungure 11:03Absolutely. I think I'm working on trying to be the less busy person, I always have so many things going on volunteering here, boards here full time job, really just carrying too many things. But I would say there's always been a sort of like nonprofit and social and community service side to everything, I've ended up doing it. I think, just by design I, I was an interrupter in high school. So they you know, interact, they talk about service above self, and I just stuck. And I think that's, that's what it's always been for me. Michael Hingson 11:45So what do you do now that you're out of school? What's your job? And all that sort of stuff? Chenai Kadungure 11:51Oh, yes. So I am the Executive Director of the black physicians association of Ontario. So we have, I would say we are both in the supporting medical education for black medical learners and the our members, which are existing physicians, residents and existing physicians, but also a large part of that is trying to improve health outcomes for black community on in Ontario. So we have our work cut out there. But I think so many of our members are instrumental to things that are happening now. So as an example, they just announced that breast cancer screening can start as early as 40. In Canada, it used to only be from about 50 onwards, but we started seeing that, okay, there's a lot of like, younger people who are getting it. And so that kind of advocacy comes from work, like from groups like ours, it's pretty exciting. Michael Hingson 12:46Yeah. Now you don't have you're not an MD at all. And you're not going that, that career path, Chenai Kadungure 12:55I gather? Yes, yes, no, I, but I've always said, I've always felt like I was a healer. I'm just too squeamish to have ever gone the medical route. My mother was a nurse. So I've always been closely connected to medicine. In some ways. It's. So Michael Hingson 13:11what do you do as a CEO of the association? Chenai Kadungure 13:16Oh, what do I not do is the question. I think when nonprofits are smaller, you end up being an everything person. So it's like, you know, you're doing business development, you're doing operations, you're talking to accountants, you're on the recruiting side, you're working with volunteers, you're in the meetings with the universities about different things. So, you know, we're all over I think, when we think of public health in Canada, especially for black community, I'm in most of those spaces. Michael Hingson 13:47Why why is there a need for a black physicians Association, as opposed to just a physician's Association? And I'm not saying there isn't I just curious to hear your answer. Chenai Kadungure 13:58Yes. I mean, I think there is when we're looking at equity, there is always a I think the default for most people in most places is to be mainstream, ie, you know, one stroke for everyone. But I think there's something about listening to specific needs of different communities, and making sure they get the support they need. And in that different way, right, I think it's sometimes very hard to be able to be all things to all people and so I feel like sometimes when you have these, like, more identity group, identity related group or like, you know, oppression related groups and things like that, I think there's a bit more weight to the voice, right and people will always be able to coalesce and meet in the general association. So here we have Canadian Medical Association and Ontario Medical Association and everyone's in those and then you have more sort of like niche ones for for specific groups, and also for US and Canada. Blackfish physicians only make up 2.7% of the physician population. So I want you to imagine that in a room, right, it's so pieces people feel very lonely in their craft and sometimes just need to get together and know that there's someone who understands their challenges. Yeah. Michael Hingson 15:15Do you think the association can improve those numbers and get more black physicians into the to the workforce? Chenai Kadungure 15:23We are trying, I won't lie right now we have things like we're doing studies on like the, you know, physician suicides and things like that, because there's a lot of physician burnout, I'd say just around the pandemic and onwards. So we are trying to solve a lot of problems in one go. But I think the mental the mental health and support that comes from networks like ours, has been proven to increase the number of black medical learners. To give you an example, Timur at School of Medicine, which is, I'd say, one of the most popular Ontario med schools, has sent me that some of the people, they reported a tenfold increase in black, sort of like medical learners signups because of different support programs we put into place there. So I think it's not an overnight process, but just being able to say, have we thought about, maybe we need to do this, this is how we can include more people. So I think there's a lot of work that still needs to be done for most racialized physicians, I'd say. Yeah. Do you? Michael Hingson 16:25Do you find that there is a difference in percentage of say, black physician suicides as opposed to physician suicides? Overall? Is, is? Is there that kind of disparity in the numbers, do you think? Chenai Kadungure 16:41I think it's, Canada has the problem that we don't collect a lot of data on these things. So community ends up having to be the ones collecting the data. We are going a lot on US data for a lot of these things for now. But we do hear similar kind of themes around the challenges people face. But I know that since there's still a lot of stigma around mental health in black community, that in itself, I think would make a difference, right to the level of access, we'll see if people actually taking those supports. So I think that's a big thing. The other thing is people being able to actually see that there is a problem, I think, is you know, compassion fatigue, right. And in the healthcare sector in general, there's a sometimes a challenge with boundaries, like how do you know if you've reached your limit? How do you know that you now need to be a patient and not a doctor? Right? And we know that that's a challenge. So I think we'll have to look back and have this conversation five years from now. And I'll have the steps. Michael Hingson 17:38It will be interesting to discover in hearing what what you discover, but it will, it will be interesting to see. And my my immediate thought is that any group that feels marginalized definitely has challenges over other groups. I mean, we find it in I don't know about suicides, and so on. But we do find marginalized marginalization with disabilities. And there are a lot of things that come up. And, you know, even diversity doesn't include disabilities, typically speaking, they talk about race and gender and sexual orientation and other things and don't include disabilities. Don't Chenai Kadungure 18:15get me started on that, honestly, because I think it ends up being an I don't know what it is, because every time I'm sort of, I mean, I have an invisible disability. But I always feel like for people with visible disabilities, it's like, I feel like it's 10 times harder, just to get that like the foot in the door or whatever, because people are trying to spend as little as possible. I mean, this is I'm speaking broadly, and generally, people are trying to spend as little as possible to support staff in general, right. So if you're trying to work and you need accommodations, I just don't see that kind of willingness, you know, across the board, even in sectors like ours that are supposed to be more compassionate. I see a lot of the same problems, because I mean, I also serve on the middle center board. So we hear a lot about like, okay, these are some of the challenges that residents are facing, and I'm telling you, it's, it's unreal, we haven't even scratched the surface of the lack of support that's still required in in disability on us. Yeah, well, Michael Hingson 19:19and and why do you think that is? Chenai Kadungure 19:23I think it's because it's a mixture, part of it is there's always the excuse of, oh, it's a minority. It's a small group of people. So, you know, as far as the overall impact won't be that huge, right, number one. Number two is I think we just have an empathy problem in general in the world. If it's not something happening in my house or in my body, it doesn't matter. And I think that's huge, right? For a lot of the people I work with, even when we're doing things like medicine, a lot of it is always I have a relative there's there's a connection point and yet it's like empathy in general. Just It doesn't really seem to be there. I think with me, it's a mixture of faith and culture, right Africans are communitarians. We even have the idea of goon to I'm not well, unless you're well. And so part of that is like, you know, trying to be a bit more equitable in our approaches, right? Michael Hingson 20:17Well, the the other thing I would say is that when people talk about being a small minority, the statistics show that, in general, roughly about 25% of people have some sort of disability. So it's not really that small of a minority, where it does get to be a problem is that the minority is made up of a number of different kinds of, of ways that the so called Disability manifests. Chris, what I try to do is to level the playing field. And what I tell people is, the reality is everyone in the world has a disability. And for most of you, it's light dependency, you don't do well, if the lights suddenly go out, you have to find a way to get new light in order to be able to function. But the light bulb was invented, to give you light on demand. And so mostly, your disability is covered up, but it doesn't change the fact that it still exists, because it does exist. And I've seen it happen all too many times. But I think also we have such a fear, oh, I could, I could end up tomorrow in a wheelchair, or I could end up being blind or whatever. And so fear, and the fact that we don't include disabilities in the conversation just doesn't seem to help a lot. Chenai Kadungure 21:38I completely agree. And also one that's a little bit more insidious, is if the community doesn't have money, I feel like there's a way of putting pressure on certain topics, and you kind of say, Okay, we're not going to be able to put our dollars into X organization unless they they are seem to care about this issue. And I think there's, there's some of that, like, what's in it for me, money wise, people won't really understand that, because I do feel now that, you know, there's bit there's been performative inclusion, you know, and it's, it's about being able to get money, or being able to receive the kind of quality perception capital or something, right. For the larger organizations, when their funding issues. Yeah. Michael Hingson 22:25Yeah, there are a lot of different factors that go into it. You said you have an invisible disability, and what is that? Chenai Kadungure 22:30Oh, I just have AD ADHD? Uh, huh. Michael Hingson 22:35How has, how has that affected you in terms of going through and getting an education and what you do now on the job and so on? Well, Chenai Kadungure 22:44I think it's, I mean, I came from a time in a culture where we don't, we don't really test for these things. And we were the stigma is still really strong. I think people don't want to think that there are any challenges and having any kind of, you know, like, any kind of like, what I say like, it's dyslexia, ADHD, all these things, I don't think we even like really get the assessments, if I remember, as you know, for us growing growing up, things may have changed in that in that realm now, but I think you just kind of get labeled as Oh, you know, you're dumb, or you're not great in school, or, you know, you just kind of get put in a corner. And when I remember my earliest experiences of like, teachers just kind of acting like, like, yeah, like I say, I'm a black sheep or something. So I recall several, like almost years in my primary schooling of just kind of sitting outside of the classroom for days on end, because you get kicked out for anything. Oh, you know, your book looks messy. Get out. Oh, you know, you're being disruptive get out. And then you spend like most of the afternoon outside. So yeah, I didn't, I didn't really think that that would be so much of this. There's a barrier outside of me just being dumb or something like that, right? Because we didn't have the nuance, or the language for it. So I only more recently found out that's what it was. But I always knew there was something there. I was like, things that look a little bit easier for people. I don't know why I struggle with this. Yeah. Michael Hingson 24:15I'm amazed at the number of people I've talked with on this podcast, unstoppable mindset, who talk about the fact that they have some level of autism, but they didn't even know it, and didn't get it diagnosed until they were in their 30s. Yeah, Chenai Kadungure 24:33pretty much you get to a point where you're just like, I want to figure out what it is. Because for me, I think when I'm most burnt out, that's when you know, it's just even more apparent. So the cope when the coping mechanisms stopped working. You're like I did, like something else is going on here. Michael Hingson 24:49Yeah, yeah, we we. I think we're learning I think that that there's growth, but it certainly isn't at the level Hold on to the level that it really needs to be and disabilities are still the minority that are least talked about, or at least involved at least included. And it shouldn't be that way. But it is. Chenai Kadungure 25:16I absolutely agree. I mean, even when we're doing research, right, and we're looking at past even focus groups, and we're breaking down categories, the number of times I've sent documents back and be like you, you've left out to so many times, it seems like you've left out there. It's, it is, it's unreal. And so I think there's a level of resilience that is in the disability community that, yeah, I can't even begin to imagine because it's, yeah, it's like being invisible. Literally, it is. Michael Hingson 25:53And being ignored is what it's about. To a large degree. One thing I know that you talk about, from time to time, is the whole concept of an authenticity. Why does that matter to you? Chenai Kadungure 26:09I feel like it's a trait of, I think it's about integrity. But I also think personal integrity is so much harder. Like there, I think there's a general sort of understood idea of like, oh, you know, I did what I said I'm going to do, but the older I've gotten, the more I realized that so few people get to just fully be themselves, whether it's in their jobs, in their marriages, in their faith, and like, it's just such a huge thing to be yourself and 100% yourself. And so for me, I think that's something like I gave it a word. And I decided to call it authenticity. And, and honestly, I think if I look at all the leaders I've respected and like the most, that's what it is. And I think it's rare. I think that as a trait is rare. Michael Hingson 26:58I use that. Chenai Kadungure 27:01Well, some of it is what we discussed before, I think there there is a from when you're born, you have people telling you, you have to be a certain way, you have to think a certain way you have to study certain things, you have to do certain jobs, there's always something with it, society culture, weighing in on how you need to show up in the world. And I think more often than not, we want as much as we care about personal control, we really are about controlling other people, too. That's, that's what I can really put it to because there's a lot of performance that happens. And it's like, sometimes it's performance for survival. But a lot of times, I think it's also just performance for approval, like if I show up in this way, then I'll be accepted. Michael Hingson 27:49And it doesn't really matter, what you may truly feel is that people want you to be a certain way. So you become inauthentic, if you will. Chenai Kadungure 28:02Pretty much like oh, it just becomes your life, you know, the things you do ended up becoming like your habits or you know, it's that's what you've invested in. And so that's where you are. And I think there a lot of people who get, you know, 3040 years down the line, they realize they lived other people's lives. And I that's the thing I wouldn't want. I don't want to look back at my life 30 years from now and feel like I live someone else's life. Do Michael Hingson 28:26you think there's any kind of a trend on the part of people to want to be more authentic and to to buck that? That concept? Chenai Kadungure 28:39Definitely, I think when we talk about leaders who do things differently, or even what I see with I guess, Gen Z and sort of like the generations coming over, I feel like their BS radar is a lot stronger. Or they're, maybe it's because there are a lot, I feel like they're a lot more judgmental, because they kind of expect, they expect you to understand that they're human. Whereas I think some of the generations before we were like, You need to be a productive person, you need to, you know, show up in this way. And you know, whether it's your church or you know, there are a lot of different places that had expectations of you. I think a lot of the younger people now are just very, you know, they're not ashamed of showing up as they are, you know, I'm saying, Today I'm in my sweats, because that's what I feel like. And you know, I should show up that way, you know, so I feel like with time, we've opened up a bit. A simple example I could think of, as I know, in the tech sector, there isn't an expectation that people come buttoned up in suits and things like that, right. And yet, there's a time where I think that might have been the most offensive thing a person did when they walked into a meeting. He wore sneakers to an interview, you know, so I feel like those are some of the ways we're slowly now becoming less, I guess judgy about how other people should behave. Michael Hingson 30:01An interesting paradox. I know that when I started selling, and I took sales courses, and I met with any number of people, they would give examples like, so on the East Coast or in a number of places, and important meetings, you show up if you're a man in a suit and tie or women wear dresses and skirts and all that, but I'm going to use men just for a moment, a suit and tie and, and so on. But you don't do that if you go to Texas, you can wear jeans and cowboy boots, and it's totally acceptable. And that was something I heard 30 years ago and 40 years ago, yet, we, we still mostly really do have that that trend, oh, you have to look or do things in a particular way. And I think that also contributes to the whole disability discussion a little bit, because the bottom line is, I don't, although I want to do and have the right to have equal access to doing the things that you do and, and having that opportunity, I won't use the same tools or do them in exactly the same way. And we get too locked in again, to one certain way of doing things and it hasn't totally changed at all. Chenai Kadungure 31:16That's actually very true, I think. Yeah, even when we think of like some of the ideas in business, right? We have now you scale and all of that has its own culture. And it's like it's either you do this or you fail. So it's Yeah, I think yeah, there is always still a bit of a bit more bravery required to, to fully show up as yourself. Michael Hingson 31:38So what do doctors do in Canada? And they all feel they have to be dressed up and all that? Or can they just hide under scrubs and a long white coat? Chenai Kadungure 31:48Well, interestingly enough, I think our membership is 80% family physicians. And so I feel like that's one sort of track where people can still sort of like, you know, have the beat of their own drum. So you will have people where, you know, to give you an example, like we've got this one PDF, PDF constructor, I really enjoy her content, and she has like she had pink hair the other day. And I think it's because she's working in peds, maybe this, this doesn't, maybe she went with her pink hair somewhere else. They might not be as much of an openness. But I do find that where there's a little bit more flexibility. I think in general, there are some professions that stick more to the what I call the monochrome The monochrome or the gray or the you know that they're not really about being colorful, whether it's actually wearing color or being open to too much difference. So I must say, I think because our doctors have had to sort of like be in settings where they can't be themselves, I think when they come to our events and things like that they embrace being fully themselves. So I probably haven't seen them in their buttoned up nests as much. And you'll get certain specialties where I think the buttoned up list is just the way they are. But the minute they're off duty, there's someone else. So there are people living like double lives I feel as well right in certain professions. So for me, those are the things that are interesting that I think 1015 years down the line, it's going to look different. I think we're gonna have people be more authentic most of the time. Oh, you're Peter Michael Hingson 33:23pink hair, she must be a fan of Harry Potter and, and tungsten or something like that. Hmm. Chenai Kadungure 33:30Probably working with children, I'm sure you know, there's a lot of Harry Potter. And Michael Hingson 33:38so how does authenticity, change the world or, or create hope? Do you think? Chenai Kadungure 33:46I honestly think that there is so much labor and performance. So if I think of the way I get to show up as a black woman in so many spaces, because I'm working in my community and things like that, there's a little bit less translation. So you know, people talk about code switching, and having to be someone else at work and someone else with their friends. I feel I'm I'm really lucky in the way I get to show up as myself. I often joke that I'm in formal that when we think of how formalized workplaces are. And yet so many people are performing, right, the minute they leave the office, they feel they can literally lift their head down and be themselves. My hope is that we can get to a point where when we are at work, we can be ourselves in that same way. And I think we saw it even during the pandemic, right a lot of people got to where their trackpants while on calls and they were so relieved that they could now be comfortable in the workplace. And that's that's how I see it if you have to be uncomfortable to do something that I think is a challenge. We I think we've always put it as propriety and I feel like that, that I theory of propriety has always meant that they, you know, there's a lot of discomfort that you have to just accept. And knowing that that doesn't have to be, I think, makes us a little bit more open minded. And the more open minded we are, the more empathetic we can be. I do think we should evolve past thinking that if I haven't experienced that, I can't relate to it. Like, I don't need to go hungry for a night to understand that hunger is not great. You know what I mean? I don't need to be homeless, to know that stressing about where to sleep is a problem. And so by the same token, for me exactly what we're talking about, like, I shouldn't be surprised when I get into an elevator. And this actually like, sounds I'm like, I should expect every elevator to have those sounds, because it means when they built this building, they thought about everyone. Yeah. 35:55Well, and I think that there is a lot to be said for empathy, empathy. And that's kind of what you're talking about I, I oftentimes encounter people who tell me how horrible it is to be blind and what it's like to be blind. And I do say to them, the biggest problem is you've never tried it. Because we don't internalize it, we make assumptions. Rather than understanding and I agree with you, one doesn't need to be homeless to understand it. And one doesn't necessarily need to be hungry to understand it. But it does require us thinking about it. Hmm, Chenai Kadungure 36:32definitely like, yeah, if I, I guess, like, what you with what you're saying, if it is something I have no idea about, I think also just a level of curiosity. Right? Because that made me think that's also what's missing. Like, if I don't understand why am I not curious about it? Why am I not Yeah, trying to figure something out, because it's not, it's not something new, like what we see. But in every phase of your life, you're probably going to be encountering things. And so the small example I could give us, I remember once going to $1 store. And I saw an old lady there. And she was sort of like struggling with the, you know, like with her cart, her cart was really, really full, and the escalator and the elevator and the place was not working. And so I was like, this, this plate like this, in this building the escalator the elevator, wasn't working for two years. And I said to you know, I said to one of my friends, I can't believe it's been almost two years, and they haven't fixed this. And of course, this is $1. I'm in the middle of Toronto downtown, like you are in a Dollarama. This person is probably even economically not in the best position. And you want to give them an extra struggle, of just being able to access the space. And yeah, for me, it really just blew my mind. I really thought about that. And I was like, wow, two years. Like for two years, they've been okay with the fact that like, oh, people can ask access. There's only Dollarama in like three square kilometers, by the way. So yeah, it's yeah, the mind still boggles. I think that's the thing. I wish we could have empathy injections. Michael Hingson 38:08We need something Yeah, it is, it's important that we be more curious. And that's again, something that we don't necessarily see a lot. I've talked a few times about people and the podcast where we we choose not to be curious, or we're taught not to be curious. You know, we talked about the disability issue a while ago. And oftentimes, little kids would want to come over and talk to me or my wife, who was in a wheelchair her whole life she just passed last November. But she, you know, we would we would hear kids or see kids, I want to go ask this lady something or I want to go pet that dog because I have a guide dog and all that. And, and the parents would say, oh, no, you don't want to do that you might offend them. And this and that. The other stuff. And the bottom line is, we discourage curiosity. And the kids are naturally curious. And most of us understand that it would love nothing better than to answer any questions. And sometimes I've actually, when I heard those discussions, I'll go over and I'll say, Wait a minute. You want to pet the dog? I'll take the harness off and explain why I'm taking the harness off. Now you can pet the dog. Do you know what the dog does? Or I've seen my wife Karen go over and say, What do you want to know about the wheelchair? And the parents are being embarrassed? But they don't understand that it's a wonderful teaching moment. Absolutely. Chenai Kadungure 39:33And if anything, I think children actually understand empathy. At such a higher rate than a lot of us. I think a lot of us get a bit more cynical when we get older. Because when I think of a lot of the conversations we've had about identity, I feel like because children don't expect people to show up in a certain way. They just accept everyone. So what did they call it like the cats During thereafter, word is openness. But I think because children are imaginative for them, it's, I don't see why, why they can be different kinds of people, and just have it that way. So yeah, I really had to think about that. And even this thing of like something as small as our friendship circles, you know exactly what you're saying, you're like, do we just stick with people who are exactly like us, and we never, and we close our world even more, Michael Hingson 40:26all too often. Which is really part of the issue. And again, as I said, with children, we're teaching them not to be curious. We're teaching them not to be open, rather than encouraging that curiosity and that openness, which would be a much more wonderful thing and make the world a much better place. Because if they grew up curious, then they would continue to explore. Richard Fineman, who was one of the very famous physicists from the 50s and 60s and well in the 40s. And one of the greatest physicists of the 20th century wrote a book entitled, surely you're joking Mr. Fineman adventures of a curious fellow and even in the first chapter, he says his father pushed him always to be curious. And he grew up, continuing to have a curious mind, which I think is extremely important for all of us to do. Chenai Kadungure 41:23Wow. I love that. Because I think also, it's lately, I've been calling it curiosity over conviction. I think part of what leads us into little boxes is some of these things that are convictions that really should have just been curiosities, right that, like, is this thing really, as important? Will this really change the world or shatter the world? And if we put some of those things where they should be placed, right, it's like, okay, this is just a preference. It's not like something really huge. I feel like, yeah, we'd explore more we'd, we'd be more curious. And I think even when we look at the nature of how they do dialogues, it's always exactly that. It's saying, if you can hold space, and say, my view is my own, but it's not the only view. And just accepting that small thing. It's like, it's amazing how all of a sudden problems became opportunities and possibilities. So I do think there's, there's some power there. Michael Hingson 42:24Yeah. Well, and we all have our own views. But do you think it's also appropriate for us to have a mindset that says, Okay, I've got my own view. I like my idea. But you know, what, I'm willing to listen. And if somebody says something that really makes me change, that's okay. Chenai Kadungure 42:42Absolutely. To me, that's the curiosity, right? If I am saying anything that isn't this answer is wrong. I'm also preventing, I guess, cross learning to happen, right. And so I think that that whole, really thinking about, there's a reason how this, like why this view got built in the first place more often than not, yeah, a mixture of it might have been things we were told, right? So we may not have given it a lot of thought, and we talked to someone else. And then we're like, Huh, that's interesting, and you think of something in a different way. But a large part of it as well is our what we call frame of reference, right? If my frame of references, these 123 experiences are the most important, and it shapes my opinion about this thing. If I talk to someone or the different one, I get to just like, encounter a whole new world, it goes back to what I was saying about why I enjoy traveling, right? That just seeing something done differently, or seeing the same thing I worry about, be perceived as something happy. I'll just give you an example. There's a colleague of mine, and she and she's always posting on LinkedIn about ADHD is her superpower. And I always thought like, Hmm, interesting, interesting, interesting. But now it's like it gave me it gave me a different view of like, oh, we actually overthink some of these things and be like, Oh, this is something that actually makes you different and makes you operate in the world in a different way. And that's a good thing. And that is changing the language of it. And so for me, I think there's that that oh, we can we can open our world so much if we you know, Judge, listen, put things in boxes. Michael Hingson 44:22People often have have asked me over the years, where you're blind, do you want to see or don't you want to see? And, you know, I understand eyesight well enough to recognize that. It offers some things but as I tell people, full probably because it'd be a new adventure. But if I don't, it's not going to be the end of the world. Because in reality, eyesight just offers us another lane on the road to travel that we all do. And we've got to stop thinking that One way is less than another way. That's I think the biggest issue is we've made value judgments as to what is and is not. Which is why I always have. And I've learned this, especially during this podcast to not like the term visually impaired because visually impaired first of all, visually, I'm not different, because I'm blind. But this is the way that professionals have treated it for so long. But the other part is impaired. And that is, I shouldn't be compared to someone based on how much vision I have. If you're a deaf person, your community doesn't like hearing impaired, and you're liable to be shot. If you call a deaf person hearing impaired. It's deaf or hard of hearing. And likewise, with blind people that should be blind or low vision, forget the concept of impaired, it puts a stigma on us. And again, I think that goes back to what we were talking about earlier that helps the bad mistakes that we face. Chenai Kadungure 46:02Absolutely. And I think also with what you were talking about earlier, honestly, it's also that I feel like you have a different kind of site, there's more of an insight that comes in understanding something using a different sense, because you want to be able to say, What's it like to taste this thing? Or do you know, like, I feel like we don't really value? How do I say the exploring of the world in that way? Because there's a whole world that you encounter that I I still need to understand, because I rely so much on this. So I think it's also thinking of that in a different way. Exactly like what you're saying it's not. I think it's that lack of curiosity again. Describe it. So lack of curiosity. 46:47Yeah, well, and it is something that we hopefully over time will learn to counteract, and that we will help children and adults be more curious. And there's nothing or shouldn't be anything wrong with being curious. Chenai Kadungure 47:07Absolutely, so So I think if we so if we do a book together, it's no longer gonna be The Curious Case of Benjamin Button. But we're going to, we're going to create more curious cases. Michael Hingson 47:19Nothing wrong with that. So, you know, something I've talked with a couple of people on unstoppable mindset about is imposter syndrome. And I understand it a little bit. And I talked to one person who realized he had it and was able to deal with it. But how does impostor syndrome shrink or affect authenticity? Because I would, I would think that, since the whole concept of impostor syndrome is becoming more of a topic of discussion, that it affects other things. And one of the things that seems to me that is worth discussing is how it affects authenticity. Absolutely. Chenai Kadungure 48:05I, I think impostor syndrome has to do with that fear of not showing up the way other people want you to show up. So it still gives that power to the external, right. And yet, ironically, I think that there was always that same thing that they say, when your internal validation is low. That is when you want the external validation. And so I think when we're in a space of imposter syndrome, we feel we don't measure up for other people. And that somehow impacts the way we view even ourselves. And yet, honestly, if we just were humble enough to even get over ourselves, and just say, I'm in this space, and I've been given room to speak or do this thing. It's more the happiness of being there should allow you to actually be even more, how do I say, like, more vocal or more like, use the space that's actually been given to you. It's literally giving someone a platform and saying here, your voice is going to mean something in this room, and then you decide to actually, you know, quiet in yourself, and you say, I'd rather not speak because I don't feel like I should be here. And so I think it's a goes back to what you're saying of a value judgment. We use some strange lens to decide that we're an impostor. We're literally pretending to be in this place we shouldn't be in. And yet, I think exactly like what you said most people have gone through stages in their life when they felt that and I think they say a lot of women have it because again, you know, the some of the societal things we're still working out. were made to feel like you should actually, you know, be grateful that you're here so you feel like you don't measure up. But yeah, that's it's hard to be authentic then because you don't even have a good sense of who you are. At that point. Right at that stage. You're not seeing what value you're bringing to the table or to the room. But if you were to hold on to those nuggets that you could bring to that place, see it as an opportunity to have an opportunity to say something or do something or make an impact. If we see that as an opportunity or not, oh my gosh, I'm just going to fail so badly. When I fail so badly and just ruined everything. And yet it's like no, like, do the positive. Yeah. Michael Hingson 50:24Do you think that most people deep down, really know what they feel, but they're just afraid to deal with it. And so things like impostor syndrome or on authentic or inauthentic, things take over, but that they really know. And that that adds to the stress. Chenai Kadungure 50:42So it's like layers of so the the barriers other people can put in front of you, but then they're the worst ones that you then put in front of yourselves. And so I definitely think that if we could like, you know, my one of my, whenever when I had burnout, I remember that someone has like, we all have malware. We all have certain malware and but if we can actually do a virus scan and look and see what are the lies that are like that are that I am carrying in my life? And how are they holding me back? And actually having a conversation with them? Not so much ignoring them? Because I do think we like to go with the distraction, but having a conversation with them, you actually understand that like you'd never say this to someone else. So why would you say to yourself, all right. Yeah, we're our harshest critics. Michael Hingson 51:31Well, I reversed that and say, I really think that we need to get away from that negativity. And we should say, we're our best teachers. And we really need to do that. But that's, of course, the problem is, and I did it for many years, I'm my own worst critic, because I would listen to my presentations, the public speeches that I give, and learn from them. But I always said, I do it. Because I'm my own worst critic. Well, what I really realized was, I'm my own best teacher. And if when I started doing that, it, it changed the whole dynamic of even listening to the recordings that I make. Chenai Kadungure 52:11Oh, that's prophecy. I love that because that is that then is even the failing forward. So even if you did something and thought, that wasn't great. The next day, you've already got some experience to learn from where's this someone who's not even getting the experience because they're so afraid to even fail? That's like, the worst place to be? Michael Hingson 52:30Well, and failure. Again, I agree with some of the motivational people who say failure is really just an opportunity. And it is it's an opportunity to learn and grow. And we should never beat ourselves up over failing, but rather ask ourselves, all right, what happened? That didn't go just quite the way I wanted? How do we deal with it? Chenai Kadungure 52:50Absolutely. And I also love I think it was a Sara Blakely, the the lady who founded Spanx at her dad every time she got home, used to ask her, How did you fail today, and that was something they would celebrate, finding out about something they cared about. And I, I always loved that idea of like, again, there's a language we use. It is I make judgment calls about like, you did this thing, you got the F I mean, everyone knows what that red F feels like, right? And yet, it's exactly that it's like, oh, an opportunity to to learn something or whatever, that will be a different way of viewing the situation. Michael Hingson 53:25Yeah. And I think turning things into a more positive thing, rather than beating yourself up, like using expressions such as I, my own best teacher, changed the whole dynamic in an incredible and swift way. Which is, I think, extremely important for us to do, what you know, with you dealing with physicians and so on, and of course, in our world today, we've gone through a lot of different crises. What do you think that people need the most in a recession or depression? And why do you think it? Well, I Chenai Kadungure 54:01think it is they do need hope. Right? Hope is Hope is an element, but I think it's such a critical thing. But then I also think that it is what was it like? Somewhat like a personal kindness? And I think we need to reinforce how do I say reinforce, I forgot I forgot where my forgot group I think was depression. Michael Hingson 54:29Recession. Yes. Chenai Kadungure 54:31That's what it's like. I think there is so much depression in a well actually we can call it might be a depression, they might call it a depression 10 years from now, I don't know. But I think it's implied in the name right? That it's everything around you is going to want to pull you down. And we need to understand things that help us go in that in that opposite direction. And so for me, I think it's sometimes it's small things like sometimes I'll filter out filter out news So I get actually give myself a news fast. And sometimes I'll even do something if it's behaviorally, complaints fast, I literally, sometimes will say, I'm not going to complain about something for X number of days. Because I remember there was research that said, your brain chemistry even changes when you like, complain consistently. And so exactly what you said, the power, life and death in the power of the tongue. There's, there's so much there, but what we say to a situation. And so I think we always see the soft stuff, the frilly stuff as the things that, you know, don't matter. But that's what keeps societies going. I mean, I'm sure when FDR was weakening people, you know, in 1929, there's something there, there was a hope that he was bringing that gave him what I don't know how many terms ended up having three or four. Michael Hingson 55:49Or, well, he died during the fourth, but yeah, for hope, yeah. And people understood it, I collect old radio shows as a hobby. And I contrast how the media is today, and how programs are and the people as opposed to the way they were in the 30s and 40s, around the war, and all that, and there was a lot more rallying and supportiveness than there is today. And we just look for ways to criticize and can tear everything down, and we don't look and understand. And again, it all goes back also to curiosity and not wanting to be confused with the facts. Chenai Kadungure 56:38And I think also share, shared, trying to experience the shared experience together. If I, if I remember that time when we were so we had one of the longest lock downs, right? One of the longest long downs in the world. But one of the things that was the first time I saw positive messages on the news. So I wondered about that, you know, this whole thing where we always say we want hard news. And we riddle people with these, like things that are just going to make them feel afraid, feel angry, feel like all kinds of negative emotions. And yet there was an intentionality to positivity then because they're like, people are in their homes, and we really need to care about their mental health and things like that. And I'm like, why should that be a lockdown thing? Why can that be a way of being? Why can we have that kind of balance? I mean, if you think about it back then exactly like you said, the radio show is some thread that connected millions of people back then, now we just have our own little echo chambers all over, we're just even more disconnected and isolated than ever before. In the UK, they have a ministry of loneliness. That is how bad it is where you literally have a ministry dedicated to the problem of loneliness. So I think that there is hope unites people in a way that fear and anger and hate and all these things, you know, it's an opposition to that, right. So yeah, I think let's do that. Let's have a new currency of hope. mi 58:04There you go. Well, here's a question. What compensation is the world not having, but we should be having? Chenai Kadungure 58:14There's so many. Michael Hingson 58:17Yes, there are. Chenai Kadungure 58:18There's so many. I think the one is on honesty around nuance. We've touched on it a few times today. But this being of zero sum, we have such a zero sum language nowadays that just kind of cuts conversations off we're killing our curiosity that way and so everything is talked about from an angle from an agenda if it's like, if it's done this way, even the algorithm will push you more to you just need to click on one thing and you're gonna get a slew of other things that are reinforcing that idea and yet I feel we need more just exploration that curiosity and say, oh, you know, what makes this thing bad? What makes this thing good? Let me wait for myself. But there isn't that anymore. It's literally to you. Michael Hingson 59:05And the conversation Why Can't We Be curious is definitely an issue. Chenai Kadungure 59:15So it's interesting if we think of exactly like what you're saying in schools, maybe the curiosity is still there because kids are younger, but what is happening to us later on in life that dance that curiosity altogether? Well, Michael Hingson 59:29the problem is that so many people are growing up, learning not to be curious and being discouraged from being curious and so they pass it on. Chenai Kadungure 59:39Oh, that's a hole you've opened a hole that opens a can of worms. A lack of curiosity. I'm like, oh, that's its own. Wow. Yeah, cuz because if you can give, if you can give trauma and everything else based on experiences, you could give whole world views based on the you know, I'm not curious Why should you be curious? You know, I think that's the conversation that ends up happening. Michael Hingson 1:00:05But if you go back and look at why am I not curious and you go back and study it, it's probably because you were discouraged. I'm sure there are some people who are born. Not curious. But generally, I suspect that it's we're discouraged from being curious. Chenai Kadungure 1:00:20Absolutely. I'd say with one, one thing as well, since we've we've had a lot of new things thrown at us, I would say in the past 15 years, they're just things that did not exist 15 years ago, and we just been riddled with them. I think there is an element of, we just don't even get to process anything. Right? So forget even curiosity. We haven't even begun to look at how something like the pandemic really impacted all of us. Right? We don't even have the time to do that. Because one crisis after the next. And so I think there's also some of that we're just surviving, that it's like, curiosity seems like a luxury. So how do we get out of that, like, just surviving? Michael Hingson 1:01:05It's very good point. We can do it. But we don't. And again, there's a lot of our politicians discourage it. So you know, there's that's another story, but we won't go there. Well, I want to thank you for being with us. This has been fun. Do you know we've been doing this for over an hour. So yeah, see, and you didn't even say you were hungry. Although I know it's late back there. But this has been a lot of fun. If people want to reach out to you maybe learn more about the association or learn more about you? How might they do that? Oh, Chenai Kadungure 1:01:40well, definitely. They can. I mean, they can email me email me. I am ed@bpao.org. Bravo, Papa, alpha. October. I don't know if I still have my phone and expect close. And also, they can go to the website as well. www.bpao.org Or they can search me on LinkedIn. I think you did a good job of trying to say my name, but I'm sure they can. You know, see. Michael Hingson 1:02:12My you said Chenai Kadungure 1:02:13Chenai Kadungure. Michael Hingson 1:02:17There you go. Oh, Chenai Kadungure 1:02:19thank you so much. For the Michael Hingson 1:02:21this has been this has been a lot of fun. I've enjoyed the conversation. I hope all of you listening have enjoyed it. Love to hear your thoughts, please email me and feel free to reach out to shehnai and, and engage her in a discussion as you will. But if you'd like to reach out to me, you're welcome to do so by email. Michaelhi at accessibe.com. That's m i c h a e l h i at A c c e s s i b e.com. Or go to our podcast page www dot Michael hingson.com/podcast. So that's www.m i c h a e l h i n g s o n.com/podcast love to hear from you. And please give us a five star rating wherever you hear this podcast wherever you are. We really appreciate your ratings and your value in your comments, and your input and Chennai for you and you listening if you know anyone who we ought to have as a guest on unstoppable mindset. Really, we want to hear from you. I want to know, and we're always looking for guests, so please don't hesitate to suggest other folks and help us meet them. So one more time tonight. I want to thank you for being here and taking this time with us today. Chenai Kadungure 1:03:36Well, thank you for being a light and dark spaces. I think just even the name unstoppable that excites me because I know exactly what you said so much of our everyday is how do we stop people? How do we stop certain things. So thank you. Michael Hingson 1:03:55You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com . AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

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This time we get to hear from Paige Lewis, a clearly unstoppable leader and executive coach. Paige grew up in the Phoenix area until she went to college at the University of Texas where she learned about advertising and business. After college she spent a year in Japan selling products for Estee Lauder after which she returned to the U.S. Through an introduction from a friend she secured a position at Disney in Home Entertainment. Later she moved to DreamWorks and then to Universal where again she specialized in Home Entertainment. At Universal she rose to the position of Senior Vice President. Paige thought she had reached the “pinnacle of her career”, but over a short time she became seriously ill and was hospitalized for a week. As she describes that time now, she experienced serious burnout. She quit her position at Universal and began an analysis of her life which lead her to realize that she truly enjoyed mentoring people. She became a certified coach and has spent the past six years with her own business coaching and helping mainly senior level women to not “make the same mistakes she made”. I think you are going to hear some good observations from Paige. She has wonderful life advice we all can use. I hope very much you enjoy what she has to say. About the Guest: Paige Lewis is a leadership coach who spent over two decades as a highly regarded leader in marketing, building some of the world’s most iconic entertainment brands for Disney, DreamWorks and Universal Pictures. After being promoted to Senior Vice President of Marketing at Universal Pictures, Paige had reached what she thought was the pinnacle of her career. But she ended up in the hospital with a deadly infection brought on by extreme burnout. Soon after, she left the corporate world to heal her body and figure out why she had reached a breaking point without realizing what was happening along the way. She has turned her experience into her mission: turning executive burnout into career success. With a unique ability to transform complex challenges into actionable insights and the real-world business experience as a former executive, Paige is a trusted guide for leaders seeking to excel without compromising well-being. She is dedicated to helping organizations and people realize their greatest purpose and impact without sacrificing their productivity, health, values and most meaningful relationships. Paige is one of the elite Founding Los Angeles coaches at CHIEF, a network recognized by Fast Company's Most Innovative Companies list, created to drive more women into positions of power and keep them there. She has coached over 200 individuals and groups across Fortune 100 companies, nonprofits, media and marketing agencies, and start ups. She holds an MBA from the Thunderbird School of Global Management and a Bachelor of Science in Advertising from the University of Texas at Austin. Ways to connect with Paige: Website: https://paigeonecoaching.com; PaigeOneCoaching.comLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/paige-lewis/; Paige Lewis Sandford | LinkedIn About the Host:Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children’s Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association’s 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.comhttps://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/https://twitter.com/mhingsonhttps://www.youtube.com/user/mhingsonhttps://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ accessiBe Linkshttps://accessibe.com/https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBehttps://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can also subscribe in your favorite podcast app. Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts. Transcription Notes:

Michael Hingson 00:00Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us. Michael Hingson 01:21Well, hi, and we want to welcome you to unstoppable mindset. This is our latest episode, needless to say, and we're really glad that you're here with us today we get to chat with Paige Lewis Sanford and I'm sure you're all familiar with Paige. Oh, you're not? Well, you will be by the time we're done here. Paige is a fascinating individual. She's worked to help improve and greatly increase the brands of organizations such as Disney and DreamWorks universal and my gosh, I don't know what all and hopefully, her influence will rub off and help unstoppable mindset but we're gonna see about that. So Paige, welcome to unstoppable mindset. And whatever happens, we're glad you're here. Paige Lewis 02:07Thank you for having me. I'm excited to be here. Well, Michael Hingson 02:11it'll be a lot of fun. And we'll, we'll make it useful and fun in some way or another. And as I told you earlier, one of the rules of the podcast is we got to have fun. So that's as good as it gets. Well tell me a little about kind of the early page growing up and all that sort of stuff. Paige Lewis 02:28Well, I am a Phoenician, I grew up in Phoenix, Arizona. So I am a lover of the sun to this day, and had a really a really lovely childhood. I have a younger brother. He's 14 months younger, we were very close. And we spent a lot of our days inventing things and laughing a lot. My parents instilled a lot of curiosity in us. I'm grateful they exposed us to a lot of things. So whatever we wanted to try. We got to try even gymnastics, which I failed at. I was terrible. But thanks to my parents, I have a strong love of music. I have a lot of curiosity. And yeah, I am they made me who I am today. Michael Hingson 03:15So you grew up in in Phoenix in Arizona who have been there a number of times we've spent part of our honeymoon my wife and I a long time ago, at the point Tampa to hotel. Paige Lewis 03:29Oh, yes, I think I had a prom there. Michael Hingson 03:35Well, and our last night of the honeymoon, we went to the restaurant. At the point HEPA to which was up on the top of a mountain. And I think one way you look in there you see Phoenix and the other way, I think a Scottsdale if I recall, Paige Lewis 03:50a Scottsdale or Paradise Valley. Yes. Michael Hingson 03:53And I think it was a restaurant called a different point of view, which was cute. 03:58Yes, yeah, Michael Hingson 04:00I've been there. My wife bought a lobster and she thought it would just kind of be a typical. So it ended up being a three pound lobster. And she didn't know what to do with it all. Paige Lewis 04:10Oh, my goodness. That's a lot of lobster was Michael Hingson 04:12a lot of lobster. But it was our honeymoon. So it was worth it. And the other thing is that that was when they made Caesar salad right at your table and actually created the dressing right at the table using rye eggs and everything's still the best dressing I've ever had. Paige Lewis 04:27Amazing, amazing. Well, I hope you were not there in the summer, because that can be brutal. Michael Hingson 04:33It was no Well, we got married on November 27 1982. So it would have been we'll see that was a Saturday. And so it would have been probably the well the third or the fourth that we went so of December so No it wasn't. It wasn't in the hot part or the hottest part. Paige Lewis 04:57That's good. That's actually a person Big time of year to beat. Yeah. Yeah, it Michael Hingson 05:01was great. We very much enjoyed our time there. So. So did you go to college in Arizona? Or did you go to college or what? I Paige Lewis 05:10did not stay in Arizona. I was 17 when I graduated high school, and I really, really, really wanted to leave Arizona. And I was very interested in getting a degree in advertising. And I'll tell you why. And it sounds silly now. But I was very determined and stubborn at that age. I always know. I know. I know, ask my mother she uses could not change my mind. So I was fascinated with how people described products. So if you looked at a box of cereal or a bottle of suntan lotion, how did they come up with the coffee? I was fascinated by how they would construct that, which seems very simple, but so I was really determined to find a good school and advertising. And one of them was the University of Texas at Austin. I also wanted a very traditional college college experience. I wanted the football I wanted to, you know, big Grecian looking buildings and grassy lawns and never thought I would like Texas, but fell in love fell in love with the campus. And so that is what I what I chose. In retrospect, it was way too big for me was 49,000. undergrad. I knew nobody. This is a this is a theme in my life is I put myself in situations where I don't know any anyone. It's uncomfortable. But I loved it. I did. I did enjoy it. I learned a lot. I had a minor in Japanese at that point, too. And after I graduated, I wanted to become conversationally fluent in Japanese. And surprisingly, in college, we didn't do a lot of speaking Japanese. It was a lot of fun and writing. Yeah. So I had an opportunity to go to Tokyo and work for one of the divisions of Estee Lauder, so cosmetics company. And some of you may remember the line prescriptives. Michael, I would not assume you would know this line. They had just opened in Japan. And so I got a job working in a department store selling makeup in Japanese. My Japanese was not very good. So it was trial by fire. Well, Michael Hingson 07:37my wife loved white linen. And when I worked in the World Trade Center, I discovered that there was an Estee Lauder second store in the tower one on the 46th floor. I think it was so little bit familiar with Estee Lauder and invaded the store often. Okay, Paige Lewis 08:02yes. So. So yeah, so I did that I knew nobody. And this was before the time of cell phones or even relatively affordable international phone plans. So I took two giant duffel bags, and my parents put me on a plane. And I showed up and they arranged for someone to meet me, a friend of a friend of a friend and I spent a year in Japan. Michael Hingson 08:30So why Japanese in the first place? Well, when I was Paige Lewis 08:34think I was a senior in high school, my high school turned into an international magnet program. And they offered what they thought were going to be the emerging important business languages of the world, which were Japanese, and Russian, in addition to what they already had French and Spanish. So I decided to Japanese my brother took Russian, I thought it would be handy no matter what I ended up doing. So that's why I went with it. Michael Hingson 09:03I took a year of Japanese in college as well. I did it was in graduate school. It was one year and we talked some but you're right. It was a lot of reading and writing. And I actually learned Japanese Braille, which was was kind of fun. I don't remember a lot of that now. But still, it was fascinating to you know, to take and people said it was simpler than Chinese and given everything I've learned I think that's probably very true. But I've spent time since in Japan when thunder dog our book was published. I was also published in Japanese. So in 2012 I went and spent two weeks over there and literally with the publisher of the book in Japan we traveled all around Japan took the bullet train from Tokyo to Hiroshima and all sorts of places in between which is a lot of fun. Paige Lewis 09:53Did you use any of your Japanese while you were there? Michael Hingson 09:56No, I didn't remember enough. It had been way too long. So, so I didn't didn't practice up enough to keep it going all that well. Paige Lewis 10:06I understand that 100% Yeah, but that's okay. Michael Hingson 10:11But I understood a lot about the customs and the people. And that was a big help as well. Paige Lewis 10:16Yes, absolutely. Michael Hingson 10:18So what did you do after a year in Japan? Paige Lewis 10:23Well, I came back. Yeah, it was a, it was a great growing experience. But it was challenging. And I missed, I missed America. So I came back. And I worked for a promotions company. And while I was there, the CEO introduced me one to Disney and to to his graduate school, which was an internationally focused MBA program. So I ended up going to Thunderbird. Some of you may have heard of it. It's the International Business School of International Management. It's now part of ASU and finished my International MBA studied more Japanese. And then at the end, when I was interviewing for jobs, there was a job at Disney. And I really thought I was going to do international business and work with Japanese companies. And you know, maybe Toyota or something like that. But this job at Disney came up. And I was fascinated by it. So luckily, I ended up getting it. It was in the home entertainment division of Disney, which was back then it was VHS tapes. You gotta remember those VHS? I do? Yes. The very, very beginning of DVD. So I took the job and I moved to LA and again, didn't didn't know anyone that my brother was there, but really didn't know anyone Michael Hingson 12:01and VHS and not beta. Yeah, that VHS had won Paige Lewis 12:05the war. So beta was gone. Yes. It was VHS. Yes. Thank you for remembering that Michael Hingson 12:11show. Your brother was in LA. He was in LA. Yes, it was he. Paige Lewis 12:18He went to school at Loyola Marymount to study Recording Arts. So he's a composer and he writes music for commercials. Okay. Yeah, he has a very cool job. Very successful. Michael Hingson 12:33So what did you do in home entertainment at Disney. Paige Lewis 12:37I started out in retail marketing, which means I was helping selling movies to the big brick and mortar retailers. So Walmart, Toys R Us, target all of those. And I did that for a few years. And then I moved into brand management, and was actually working on the strategy for selling some of the new releases. And I was there a couple of years and then a few of the Disney people moved over to DreamWorks. Everyone remembers DreamWorks. When DreamWorks started, Jeffrey Katzenberg went over there. And then a couple of people I knew from Disney, and they recruited me to come over to their home entertainment division, which was very small, very entrepreneurial, but a very exciting time to be there. As they were building the business and figuring out I got to work on track and the prince of Egypt and Gladiator Saving Private Ryan, a lot of those really great fun movies. Michael Hingson 13:39So that that kept you busy for a while. Paige Lewis 13:44And then I moved over to universal and spent 16 years at Universal Pictures and home entertainment. et Michael Hingson 13:53phone home. Paige Lewis 13:56Yes, exactly. Exactly. I didn't get to work on that movie. But I mainly worked on the family movies, so a lot of animated movies. Shrek continue with Shrek and Despicable Me. I actually worked on a lot of the Barbie movies, which was which was really fun. And I eventually worked my way up into to senior vice president which was my pinnacle, which was what I really wanted to achieve in my career. But then, as we talked about a little bit, some bad things happened at that point in my career, Michael Hingson 14:34what kinds of things happened that you want to talk about? Well, Paige Lewis 14:40I ended up in a very dangerous burnout situation. So I had been promoted to senior vice president. And soon after that a couple of major things happened in my life. My father died and then a couple of very close friends passed away So that sort of shifted how I approach life and what I thought about my priorities. At the same time, universal was having its biggest year ever. So it was the year of Jurassic World and the latest Fast and Furious movie. I think another Despicable Me It was, it was just a very, very busy year. And I noticed I started having these symptoms, so I was getting sick a lot. I was really irritable and cranky. People actually had to come mention to me that I was acting a little out of character. I was getting strange things like I had this rash on my face for no reason. And then, you know, I just ignored all this and kept, kept working because I was an achiever, and I just wanted to get the job done. So then I started having I had this pain, and I'll just say it on my butt on my right, but and it got so painful that I couldn't sit. And I thought, Okay, well, maybe a spider bit me or something. And then at one point, it got so bad that I couldn't I had to work from home, lying down. And at that point, a kind colleague said, you know, Paige, I think you might want to have that looked at. So I was like, alright, and you know, it was getting bigger and more and more painful. And so I went to my dermatologist, she took a look, she called in her colleagues to get a second opinion. And then they said, Alright, we've called the er, at the hospital next door, we need you to go there right now. So what I learned is that I had contracted Mersa, which is, yeah, an anti bot, antibiotic resistant staph infection. And it's so dangerous that if it gets into your bloodstream, it can kill you. So I was admitted to the hospital for a week, they gave me a very heavy duty antibiotic that works on this. It's so strong that it made my veins collapse. So they had to put in a PICC line. And it really, it was, you know, like they say, it was what it was my wake up call. Michael Hingson 17:20What year was this? That this was 2016. Okay, so that was your wake up call? That was Paige Lewis 17:28my wake up call. And then I went, and I had to take a month off of disability? Well, Michael Hingson 17:34certainly, that's understandable, given the severity of it, and so on. And what did you do her think about during that month, and then going forward? Paige Lewis 17:45Well, I realized, as I you know, wine there in the hospital, that something wasn't working, obviously. And I really, I really didn't understand how this happened. How did I get a staph infection on my butt. And I just, I just figured I really needed to make a change I wanted to live, I did realize that. And I wanted to get healthy. I mean, something was really, really out of whack. So this is what really did it for me. I came back in January. And this was the time when Carrie Fisher and Debbie Reynolds had passed away. And I went into the meeting into a meeting. And this was the first meeting my first day back. And what was brought up was, you know, Debbie Reynolds just died. Do we have any movies we can put out and leverage this. And that just hit me as being so distasteful. And I realized, this is not the business I want to be in anymore. This doesn't fit. So about a week later, I went in, I quit. I quit my job, nothing lined up. No idea what was I was gonna do. But I knew it was the right thing to do. Yeah, Michael Hingson 19:08that, that just certainly seems like a pretty insensitive thing to say. I understand. Some people do that. But gee, when do you draw the line and recognize maybe it's a time to just let people mourn? I mean, look at Debbie Reynolds for such a long time, and I are going to do is try to promote you in the brand. T does that really make sense? Paige Lewis 19:33Yeah, it just it just seems a little gross to me. So I quit and then I realized that I needed to figure things out. So the antibiotics I realized, after doing a lot of research had completely wiped out all the good bacteria in my gut. And I learned that you have to have that good bacteria to stay healthy. So and I also was a diet coke addict, big time diet coke addict. And I learned that one Diet Coke can destroy your gut biome. So I quit. I quit Diet Coke, it was not easy. I will tell you. I don't know if you drink it. It's Michael Hingson 20:18no, I'm more of a water drinker. I got to say, Okay. I've never been that much of a soda drinker. Paige Lewis 20:24That's a lot better for you. Yeah. So I figured out my health. And then I started trying to figure out why this all happens. Michael Hingson 20:33Now, I was just gonna ask you what you decided about why it occurred? Well, Paige Lewis 20:38one, I learned a lot about burnout. And that stress can kill you. And that this staph infection was a literal sign, it was a literal pain in my butt that my work was a pain in my butt. And I needed I needed to find something different and, and after really thinking about things, I realized my values had shifted. So my values were no longer aligned with the work I was doing. And that caused a lot of friction, and disengagement, and stress. And so then I wanted to figure out, okay, all right, I understand that this job. Marketing movies isn't a good fit anymore. But what is, so I let curiosity kind of leaves me and I did some research. I found this great book, I don't know if you've heard of it. It's called What color's your parachute? It's been around forever, I think, in my 20s, forever. And so I picked it up again. And it had me really think about what am I good at doing? How do I use my brain? What really drives me? And I also did some work, figuring out what my new values were. And I realized, I really like the mentoring part of what I do at work. I like solving problems. And I like helping people rise to their full potential. So then I started looking into, well, do I want to become a therapist? I'm not sure I want to go back to school again for that long and spend all that money. So then I started talking to coaches, executive coaches, and I realized, well, they do a lot of what I think I want to do. And they also can give you specific direction, and steps to take. So unlike the therapist model, where it's just a lot of questions, you can actually draw upon your experience and share that to help people. And so So I actually, because every day, what I would do is I would get up and I would read, I would read articles, and I would just sort of follow the breadcrumbs. And I stumbled upon a woman who wrote a really great article, I reached out to her, she was a coach. And she was so motivating in that one conversation, that I ended up writing an article and ended up deciding I wanted to go get my coaching certificate. So this was this was end of 2017 into 2018. So I ended up getting my coaching certificate and started working with women so that they wouldn't end up like, like I was, I really don't don't, there was no reason I needed to hit that level of burnout. Tell Michael Hingson 23:46me? Well, first of all, a little bit about why do you think you actually contracted versus and why do you think that? Or how do you think that happened? Do you really know? Paige Lewis 23:58I think my immune system was so beaten down and compromised. That it happened. I don't know how it got there. I honestly don't know. I promise you I'm a clean person. I take showers. I know like wandering around rubbing myself and dirt. I just I just think, you know, there were there were signs leading up to it other smaller illnesses and my body fine was like, Okay, you're done. But I don't know, I don't know the source. Good question. Well, so Michael Hingson 24:31you went off and you started to study about being a coach and so on. What does it mean to get a coaching certificate? What's the process? Paige Lewis 24:39Oh, that's a good question. Well, there are lots of different coaching programs and the one I chose is based on human needs psychology and behavior. So I had been through a lot of leadership programs through my my days as a marketing executive. So I knew a lot of the traditional Leadership, procedures, methods, whatever you models, whatever you want to call them. So I really wanted to get into almost kind of going back to why I got into marketing, why people do what they do what's driving them. So I learned all about the six core needs and what motivates people and really had to get into their brains and change behaviors and habits. So it was 100 hours of training. I think I did it pretty quickly. I was motivated, I think I did in about four months, and then was and then was certified. And then there are all different types of coaching programs, some people do mindfulness route, some people just do a very traditional corporate route. So I wanted to kind of balance out what I already knew. Michael Hingson 25:47Well, so you went ahead and did that. And you got certified, and have been coaching ever since. I have, I've Paige Lewis 25:56been coaching for about six years, and also doing excuse me marketing consulting, because I like to keep my toe and in that part of the world also. Michael Hingson 26:06So what Tell me a little bit about the the coaching program or what you do, then how do you help people? And where do you where do you help people all over? Or where does that all come from? Paige Lewis 26:21Well, luckily, I do everything virtually. So I can help people no matter where they are. My specialty is helping women executives, I want to help them excel in their careers without impacting their well being. Someone once told me, when you become a coach, your message becomes your message. So clearly, yeah, my my story of burnout is something that really drives me and it's a passion, a passion of mine. So I typically work with women executives, who are director level all the way up to C suite. And they come to me one because they aren't loving their job anymore. They don't know why they want a career change. They're in some sort of toxic work environments and don't know how to manage it, they are experiencing signs of burnout, they don't have the tools or skills to deal with it, I help a lot of people who are wanting just to jump jump a level or two in their career. So helping them with executive presence and managing teams, a lot of your traditional leadership development skills. So I love it tremendously. And it fits really nicely with my values. Michael Hingson 27:44I had a conversation yesterday with two women who also are very heavily involved in leadership and, and coaching. But a lot of corporate leadership training, they have developed a program that they describe basically is, well the company is missing logic. And the program is based on polarity, they talk about the fact that everything is really about polarity, and like breathing is polarity exhaling and inhaling, you got to do them both. And whether you're dealing with work, or life and polarity, again, you've got to really understand that both are part of what your world ought to be. And so many people get stressed out because they don't really look at trying to balance polarity, which is really pretty fascinating. We had a great discussion about it. Paige Lewis 28:42That's an interesting way to think about it. I have stopped saying work life balance, and I call it work life harmony, because it's never equally balanced. Michael Hingson 28:52Right. But at the same time, what what Tracy and Michelle would say is that you need both poles. And it's a matter of finding how to, to have a well, I keep saying balance, but to have some sort of that making both poles work to help each other because one or the other isn't going to work. Paige Lewis 29:19That's that makes a lot of sense. Yeah, I agree with them. Michael Hingson 29:22It's a lot of very fascinating discussion, but in your case. So you do that and you don't necessarily use those terms, but it sounds like you end up getting to the same place. So you've been doing that now. Six years. Yes, Paige Lewis 29:36that is true. Six years. It's gone quickly. Michael Hingson 29:40So you think you have now found a niche that's going to last a while? Paige Lewis 29:46I think so. We still have a long way to go and getting women to an equal playing field as men. Unfortunately it isn't. It is improving. But there are a lot of things that still Need to improve. So, for example, women experienced burnout much more than men 43% of women or executives experienced burnout men only 31%. And I think it just it has to do with the kind of silence responsibilities a lot of women take on, whether that's Child Care caring for elderly parents, it's taking more on at work, that's sort of outside the your job responsibility or your job description. And women also don't think that corporations are quite there yet. And having good strategies and good programs to have gender equity in the in the workplace. I mean, 92% of women don't believe that companies are kind of walking the talk in that area. So yeah, I think there will be a need for a while it would be my dream, if there isn't a need. For this, that means that women women are equal in the workplace in terms of opportunities and roles and pay. Yeah, that's a good piece of news. I have a good piece of news, though, that I just learned, sorry to interrupt you is that there was there were, you know, people would say for a really long time, and there were stats to back it up that women were afraid to negotiate for salary or promotions, it's actually changed. And women are just as likely, if not more, to negotiate for increased salary or promotion, whatever. So. So that's some good news. And a common belief that is now has now changed. And Michael Hingson 31:42should, by any standard, we haven't seen a lot of that yet, in the world of persons with disabilities, where we're still even though we're by any definition, the second largest minority, or maybe the largest minority will be the second because there are more women than men, although people keep saying women are the minority, but in physical sense, there are more women than men. So either way, you look at it disabilities as the second largest minority, but the most excluded from any of the conversations or any of the real involvement in the workforce, which is why we continue to face an unemployment rate in the 60 to 70% range among employable persons with disabilities, like, especially with blind people. And the reality is, it's fear, it's a lack of education. And it's not understanding that, just because we may do things in a different way, it doesn't mean that the technology and the tools that we need shouldn't be part of the cost of doing business. But yet, that's what happens. Those Paige Lewis 32:49are staggering numbers, Michael, but your company is doing a lot to help with that. Well, Michael Hingson 32:54accessiBe is doing a lot to help with that and is being pretty successful. And the number of people using the technology are are growing, or is growing, and excessive. He's working on some programs to really teach more people about Internet access and website development with access and accessibility. So hopefully, that will continue. And we'll be able to make more strides, but it is a thing that we face on a regular basis. Paige Lewis 33:24Yes, it is. So for Michael Hingson 33:27what you're doing and so on. You've talked a little bit about burnout, are there different kinds of burnout? And do you deal with them all the same way? How does that address get addressed? Paige Lewis 33:39Yeah, that's a great question. I think people generalize the term burnout and and the, you know, when someone is just stressed, they'll say I'm burned out that the actual technical definition of it from the World Health Organization is that burnout is chronic stress in the workplace that hasn't been successfully managed, which puts a lot of onus on on the person, right? If you haven't successfully managed it, the company's not really helping you set up any systems to help you with that you person has to have to deal with it. But Michael Hingson 34:15which is also I'd seems to be not totally fair either. Right? Paige Lewis 34:19Right. And there's not a lot of progress in that area. Everyone is going to be burned out at some point in time. Everyone, everyone's going to face it. But there are different types. There's physical burnout, which is you're tired, you're getting sick a lot like I was you're not moving around a lot. You've kind of forgotten to exercise or even stand up from your desk and those those signs can show up like headaches or just different physical things. And then there's emotional, which I also had, that can show up as being you're cranky, you're short tempered, you're impatient. and you're not spending time with the relationships that you know are strong. Yeah, just maybe a little bit of a change in your demeanor. Then there's there's mind, there's mind related burnout, which is, when you're kind of in that fight or flight mode, and you're spending a lot of time putting out fires at work, you're distracted. You can't focus. That's that type. And then the last one is burnout of the Spirit, which often can show up as being bored. So a lot of people get really bored or uninterested in their job or whatever is important to them, and they don't realize that it's burnout. And so that could be you're doing a lot of things at work that just really aren't aligned with what you do. Well, what you like doing. And so you just kind of just kind of check out. Michael Hingson 35:59Do you find, though, that people that are, that are in that situation? Oftentimes haven't really sat down and analyzed what they really want to do or analyzed? Am I really doing the right thing? And that contributes to that? Yeah, yeah. Paige Lewis 36:17100%, like, I didn't know, I had no idea. I just kept a lot of people, you know, they're on the treadmill. They just keep going every day. And it's rare that people stop and they reflect and they reassess. It's only when people get into a state of burnout, sadly, that they need to wake up and realize, okay, something isn't working. But there are always signals, they're always signals. And oftentimes, it's more than one one type of burnout that's hitting at the same time. Michael Hingson 36:50But you just you distinguish between emotional, mind and spiritual, if you will, they're they're all three different even though in one sense, it seems like they're all sort of mental in one way. Paige Lewis 37:03They are sort of mental in one way, but they come out in different ways. And they the route of them is different. So there are two main ways to, to sort of manage burnout, the traditional way that everyone thinks is how you, you manage burnout, unfortunately, this is what companies kind of latch on to is just go take some time off, go to a spa, get a massage, and that'll cure everything. This self care really only works for the body and the emotional burnout. Because that's you're just exhausted, those two are fall under exhaustion. And with that, you actually do need to take a timeout, and take care of yourself. You only need 15 minutes, but it could be you know, take a walk, walk away from your computer, or your phone, don't take your phone with you on your walk. You know, just leave it alone. Don't let anyone interrupt you. Call call a friend, just do something that's enjoyable for you that is, will reboot your system. For the mind in the spirit burnout, which you know, is you're just distracted and you're or you're bored. Or you're in fight or flight mode, you actually are having cynical detachment. So, okay, yeah, it's different. So you so self care actually does not work. Because when you're in this space, you're focused too much inward, and on yourself, and you've lost perspective. So what you do when you have that type of burnout is you need to clarify things. And it could be clarifying your role. So role clarity, write down the three to four most important things in your job. And then ask yourself are you spending time on the high value activities, because you may not be the other. There are three parts of this. The second one is relational clarity. So you may have lost perspective about other people in your life. So a way to break yourself out of this is write a note of thanks to someone, maybe someone on your team, remind yourself that you are not alone and all this. And then the last one is perspective, clarity. So a lot of people just completely lost perspective. So go do something totally different. Go watch a or listen to a comedy video. Call your mom and ask about you know, bring up an old memory just something that reminds you that work isn't everything because these two types mind and spirit burnout, as these are a lot of the workaholics too, and they keep working, working, working and they've just lost complete perspective about everything else in the world. Michael Hingson 39:55One of the things that I realized during In the pandemic is that although, on September 11, I escaped and wasn't afraid. And I knew why I wasn't afraid, which is that I prepared and knew what to do in the case of an emergency. And as I now say, that created a mindset. But what I realized is that, the fact is, we can control fear, and we can control a lot of what we do. But we have to be mindful. And we really need to keep things in perspective. And one of the best ways to do that is to be introspective in our lives. And really practice that, until it gets to the point of being a habit, and you develop that whole introspective and self analytical muscle. And I, so we're writing a book about all of that. And we're going to, I'm going to, it'll be out next year, and we're going to talk about how to control fear and not let it as I would say, blind you or paralyze you or overwhelm you, but how do we get people to start to be more introspective in their lives and in what they do, and recognize that that's an extremely valuable thing to do. Paige Lewis 41:08You make a really, really good point. I think a lot of it like, to your point about habits, a lot of us have, you know, that inner critic, who is just saying, you know, you're not good at this, you shouldn't try to do this. You always done it this way. If you can take yourself out of that, and almost become an observer. And look at your thoughts and what how you talk to yourself as just another person, you can even name it, that kind of helps you take yourself out of it so that you can change your habits. Because a lot of the what we tell ourselves are just habits. They're not even true anymore. They're based on beliefs that you you made up a long, long time ago and had value back then. But they're not even true anymore. So I think we just need to be aware and stop ourselves. And remind ourselves, when we're thinking things, you ask yourself, Is this really true? Or is this just the habit? Michael Hingson 42:14Good point. And I also learned that along the way, I always used to say, and I still do this, but I record presentations that I give, so I can go back and listen to them. And I always say that, I love to do that. Because I'm my own worst critic, I'm nobody's going to be as hard on me as I am. And I learned, that's the wrong thing to say. And that's the wrong way to approach it. Because in reality, even teachers can't teach me they can present me with information. But ultimately, I have to teach myself. And in fact, it's not that I'm my own. I'm my own worst critic. I'm my own best teacher. And if I turn it around and use that terminology, then it becomes more of a positive process, to look at things and think about them and teach yourself even when something doesn't go well. And even when it does go well. What can I better learn to even make it go better next time. I'm my own best teacher is such a more positive thing to say. Paige Lewis 43:19I love how you reframe that, that's a great way to look at it. And, and also, you know, we talked ourselves worse than we would talk to our friends. Yeah. Which is just crazy. Michael Hingson 43:32In reality, we should talk to ourselves and really get better at thinking about things and saying, Okay, well, how do I deal with it? Don't hide from it. And no matter what it is, allow yourself to teach yourself how to deal with it. Paige Lewis 43:50And it's practice it. And then it will become a habit. Yeah. And just like we talked down to ourselves and criticize ourselves. It's just the habit. Yeah. Michael Hingson 44:05And it is a habit that we can break. Paige Lewis 44:08Absolutely. And it's just practice. It's just practice, and it's micro micro steps. You don't have to get it perfect the first time. And we forget, you know, we're not supposed to be perfect beings. We're supposed to be in this world to try new things and learn from them. And we just are so hard on ourselves that we have to be perfect at every single thing we do. And oftentimes, other people aren't even paying attention. And they forget about it Michael Hingson 44:38much more quickly than we do. And yes, there's a lesson there too. Paige Lewis 44:42Yes, and I always I always tell my clients like when they're all worked up about something or ruminating and countless something go, Well, this really matter. In two weeks. Will this matter in three months in a year? No. No one will remember you probably won't ever remember To your point, learn from it, and just let it go. It's hard, it's practice, I get it. But just to put things in perspective, it usually is not as important as we think. Michael Hingson 45:12And if it really affects you, and you're thinking about it a lot, then take a step back, as you said, and think about why is this affecting me so much? It's appropriate to do that. It's appropriate to help to understand you better. Paige Lewis 45:31Yes. And I'll give you a tip that I give my clients that I actually learned from my dad, for people who ruminate a lot of worry a lot. Actually schedule worry time in your day. And don't do it right before bed? No, no, because then you won't sleep well, but schedule it at a time. Have no distractions, sit there for 20 minutes and worry about everything. And you have to sit there even if you've run out of things to worry make it up like, my my sock is starting to unravel, you know, stupid things. My dog is panting more than usual. Whatever it is, Michael Hingson 46:14I can't figure out anything to worry about. I'm worried about that. Right? Exactly. Paige Lewis 46:18I'm worried about that I have to sit here. And Paige said I can't move for 20 minutes. So you do that every day. And what'll end up happening is one, you'll realize you don't really have that much to worry about to you train yourself that you can only worry during a certain period of time. So you're not spending your whole day worrying and ruining your day. And if you start thinking about something out, or you're worried time you say, okay, Paige, no, you're scheduled to worry about that at 10am, from 10am to 1020. And it's remarkable how people improve with the ruminating and the worrying. Michael Hingson 46:56So what mostly do you coach about what what is your specialty, if you will, overall, Paige Lewis 47:01my specialty is helping women leaders excel in their careers without impacting their well being. So a lot of that is what we've talked about today, how to handle burnout, how to manage your thoughts, how to improve your leadership skills. You know, I mainly work with pretty senior women who don't have anyone else to talk to, and this is this is a theme that I've come across a lot, and I felt myself is a lot of women leaders don't think that they have people they can talk to at their companies or within their industries. Michael Hingson 47:44Yeah, that was what I was gonna get to. Is it true that they don't, or they just don't think they do have people to talk to? Paige Lewis 47:54Well, a lot of times, it's difficult to talk to people, I do work with an amazing organization called chief. And they're a private network for women. But what they've done is they have put together peer based groups, they curate these groups of women at similar points in their career, similar levels, so that they have a safe space of peers from whom they can learn, get different perspectives. Because I, when I was first, you know, talking with Chief about coming on, as one of their first coaches, I said, if this had existed when I was at Universal, and burning out, I would not have burned out, because a lot of a lot of the struggle is feeling like you're the only one and not having the tools and the skills to manage through it. Michael Hingson 48:46And a lot of times we don't look for people to talk with, because we just feel that we're an island in the middle. And oh, I don't want to talk to people who work for me because that that wouldn't be good. I mean, there are just so many excuses that we can come up with. Paige Lewis 49:05Yeah, or you're embarrassed and you are you're embarrassed. You know, I'm the only one who's dealing with this, I must be crazy. Imposter Syndrome comes in a lot. So, no, almost everyone is going through the same things. And it's just really reassuring and helpful to know that other people are going through it, and can share some ways that they have managed it. It's these these meetings are so powerful, I can't even tell you they really, really are amazing. Michael Hingson 49:39What do you say to people who are thinking of a career change or who don't know where to start? You know, because I'm sure that comes up and what you do? Paige Lewis 49:48It does and it can be really scary. And I think I think people don't give themselves enough credit. What what helps most of my clients and help me is having a having a mindset of curiosity. Because I know for a fact that people have transferable skills, it's just getting curious and following the breadcrumbs to find out what else is out there that aligns with my values that motivates me. And that uses my skill set I can do. So one, one of the exercises I have people do is to think about sample some activity that they're doing. It doesn't have to be related to work where they are completely what you would say in flow, meaning they lose track of time they forget to eat, they know that they're kicking ass and what they're doing. And they are loving it. So it could be for example, gardening. Who knows it could be gardening. And so then what I asked them to do is, okay, really, really dissect what you're doing. What, like, how are you using your brain? Maybe you are researching the different kinds of plants that work in your soil, maybe you are laying out where they go, maybe you are looking at the different seasons? And what works best and what time of year? And then how are you interacting with people? are you collaborating with the you know, the gardener at the nursery? Are you talking with friends who have who've made great gardens? And then what skills are you using, researching, maybe strategizing, maybe organizing, and then what you'll end up seeing, and it's something totally unrelated to your job is here, all the things? And the way here are all the different ways of thinking parallel the skills I use, and here's what I love doing, and you find this intersection. And then you use your curiosity to find out okay, what industries are interesting, and what are the jobs? You reach out to people, it's curiosity. If you lean into curiosity, you cannot go wrong. And Michael Hingson 52:16all too often, we don't. Paige Lewis 52:21Correct, we kind of block ourselves. And Michael Hingson 52:24many times were discouraged from it. I mentioned earlier, the whole concept of if I've been talking to people this morning about people with disabilities, and then somebody said, What can we better do to improve the world for people with disabilities, and my response was, include us in the conversation and so many times, I can be somewhere and when when I went to my wife was live with her, she was in a wheelchair, and people would come with their children, and we'd be in a store, whatever. And a child would ask a question and say, I want to go meet that person, I want to go look at that wheelchair. And the mother would say no, don't do that. They might not like it, or that dog might bite you. And we we we discourage curiosity, especially in children, who are the most curious people of all? Mm hmm. Paige Lewis 53:12Yes. And wouldn't it be great if we could bottle that curiosity and take it with us? Our whole lives? Yeah. Michael Hingson 53:20It's important to do that. I think I think you use the term superpower, everybody has a superpower? Or how do you how do you teach people to to find their superpower? What does that mean? Paige Lewis 53:34Yes, this is this is an important piece of finding a career that works for you. And so if you think about a Venn diagram, I'm a big fan of Venn diagrams, there are three components. So they're, they're your values, you have to get really clear on what your values are, what you are good at doing and what you love doing. So when what you love doing intersects with your values, you have a passion for what you're doing. So let's say your values are adventure, and learn learning and experiencing new cultures, you may be passionate about traveling. So you can kind of see how those work. Now, when your values connect with what you're good at doing, you're going to be engaged. So if you're really connected and aligned with your values at what you're doing for work, you'll be engaged, you'll be interested, you'll be connected, you'll still be excited to go in every day and do your job. And then what you what you love doing and what you're good at doing intersect. And I've mentioned this a little bit for you're in flow. So that's when you just are just completely happy because you're doing what you love and you know you're doing your best at it. So the superpower comes in when those three things connect, when your values, what you're good at doing and what you love doing connect. And I truly believe everyone can figure this out. Once you know that, you can find a career that meets that 80% of the time, if you have that, you will be happy, you'll be happy in what you're doing. So it's a little bit like the Japanese term of ek guy, which is finding your purpose. I don't know if you're familiar with that. Remember that. And that actually has been attributed to longer life. So this idea of IKI guy or finding your superpower, and living to that will make you happier. But it also helps extend your life because you're getting up every day, and you're doing what you love doing and what you're good at doing. Michael Hingson 55:56And I find that when people are happy, they self motivate themselves. And in general, they have better days. Yes, Paige Lewis 56:06yes. And the bad days can roll off a little easier. Yeah. Michael Hingson 56:11You need to learn to live more like dogs, you know, and live in the moment and forget all the other things. And there are so many things we can't control. And we worry about them. Dogs don't Paige Lewis 56:20write, I would like to come back as a dog. Dogs have the best lives. And I think we we also have this culture of busyness being the new status quo. And we forget that we're human beings and not human doings. And I think that's where people get in trouble. Michael Hingson 56:44We so greatly overanalyze everything and not necessarily in the right way. And again, as we talked about, we don't step back and really look at it, which is part of the problem. 56:55Yes, yes. Michael Hingson 56:58Have you written a book or anything about all of this? Paige Lewis 57:01I've written some articles. I have not written a book. I have not written a book? Well, if Michael Hingson 57:06you do, you'll have to let us know. Paige Lewis 57:08I will, I will do that. Well, if people Michael Hingson 57:11want to reach out and get in touch with you, maybe explore using your services and skills. How do they do that? Paige Lewis 57:19Well, you can reach out via my website, which is page one coaching.com. And it's spelled out I'll spell it. It's P a i g e o n e. c o a c h i n g.com. And you can also find me on LinkedIn at Paige Lewis Sanford, my new married name, yeah, you can. Yeah, you can also email me at page at patreon coaching.com. Michael Hingson 57:44So what is your husband do? Paige Lewis 57:45He is a naturopathic doctor. Oh, so he focuses on root cause? And getting to you know, the bottom of what is causing your symptoms and, and managing that and addressing that versus just throwing things like antibiotics all the time, which, you know, don't always work out. Not very good for you overall, long term. No. Michael Hingson 58:10And ultimately, we have to take a little bit more mental control over ourselves. And that's another whole story. Yes, Paige Lewis 58:20I totally agree with that. Well, gee, Michael Hingson 58:21maybe we should explore getting him to come on and chat sometime. Oh, Paige Lewis 58:25I think he would love it. Michael Hingson 58:26I'll leave that to you to set up. Yeah. I want I want to thank you for being here. And I know, you've given us a lot of really wonderful ideas. And I'm very grateful for you being here. I'm glad we had the opportunity to meet and hopefully we will do more of this anytime you want to come back on. You just need to let us know. Paige Lewis 58:46Right? I would love it. Thank you for having me. It's been great talking with you. Michael Hingson 58:51Well, this has been fun and I hope that you enjoyed it listening out there. Reach out to Paige she I'm sure we'd love to hear from you and if she can help you in any of the decisions that you need to make. That's what coaches do. So reach out to Paige. You are also always welcome to reach out to me, we'd love to get your thoughts on what you heard today. You can email me at Michael M i c h a e l h i at accessibe A c c e s s i b e.com Or go to our podcast page www dot Michael hingson.com/podcast and Michael Hingson is m i c h a e l h i n g s o n.com/podcast. Of course as we asked and I really appreciate y'all doing it, please give us a five star rating wherever you're listening to us. We love your ratings. We appreciate your reviews, and any thoughts that you have and for all of you listening and Paige, as we sort of alluded to just now if you know of anyone else who would be a good guest for unstoppable mindset. love to have you let us know. We're always looking for guests. I believe everyone has a story to tell and this is As a way to get the opportunity to tell your story and help us all learn that we're more unstoppable than we think we are. So again, Paige, I want to just thank you one last time. Really appreciate you being here and hope that you had fun. Paige Lewis 1:00:14I did. Thank you so much. Michael Hingson 1:00:20You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com . AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. 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And what, may you ask, is “polarity intelligence”? That is one of the topics we get to discuss this episode with the co-founders of the company, Missing Logic, Dr. Tracy Christopherson and Michelle Troseth. Their company was formed to help leaders overcome leadership norms that cause suffering and take them out of good work-life balance. Tracy and Michelle come from healthcare backgrounds. Even though they formed their company only in 2017 they have been using the tools they develop more than 20 years ago to train leaders to better understand and balance polarities. The most common example of a polarity we all experience is inhaling and exhaling. You need to do both to survive. As Tracy and Michelle explain, there are many polarities leaders in business face. The more leaders understand how to manage the various polarities in their environment the better their own lives and the lives of those around them will be. The balance between work and non-work is a polarity faced often by leaders especially throughout the business world. Recognizing this polarity and learning to adjust to accommodate both sides of it can greatly improve any leader's outlook and it will greatly reduce stress. Our discussion this time ranges far and wide concerning the concepts of leadership and how people can become better leaders by understanding and using polarity intelligence. I leave it to Michelle and Tracy to explain all of this to us. All I can say is that I found this discussion extremely thought provoking and relevant to our world today. I hope you feel the same. About the Guest: Dr. Tracy Christopherson and Michelle Troseth are co-founders of MissingLogic®. The core of their work is to help leaders to overcome leadership norms that cause suffering, achieve work life balance, create healthy work cultures and environments by leveraging Polarity Intelligence™. Tracy and Michelle are co-authors of the book Polarity Intelligence: The Missing Logic in Leadership and co-hosts of The TRU Leader Podcast (previously known as Healthcare’s MissingLogic Podcast). The dynamic duo is known for helping leaders balance leading and living so they can be TRU leaders—thriving, resilient, and unstoppable.Tracy and Michelle are the creators of the Dynamic Balance Effect® Framework. They use this framework to support leaders in leveraging Polarity Intelligence to create a dynamic balance between their professional and personal lives. Tracy and Michelle frequently speak at national and international leadership conferences on the topics of Polarity Intelligence, Work–Life Balance, and Healthy Work Environments. Ways to connect with Tracy and Michelle: COMPANY WEBSITE LINK:https://www.missinglogic.com/SOCIAL MEDIA LINKS:https://www.linkedin.com/company/missinglogic-llchttps://www.facebook.com/missinglogicLLChttps://twitter.com/MissingLogicLLChttps://www.instagram.com/missinglogic_llc/ https://www.youtube.com/@missinglogic2077 About the Host:Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children’s Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association’s 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.comhttps://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/https://twitter.com/mhingsonhttps://www.youtube.com/user/mhingsonhttps://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ accessiBe Linkshttps://accessibe.com/https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBehttps://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can also subscribe in your favorite podcast app. Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts. Transcription Notes:

Michael Hingson 00:00Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us. Michael Hingson 01:20Welcome to another episode of unstoppable mindset. And today, we get to talk with two people who I've gotten to know a little bit and enjoy very much. We have Michelle Troseth And Tracy Christopherson, who my screen reader says Christopherson, which I think is kind of funny, and I've really learned the King's English, but what can I or, or at least Swedish, but you know, we we cope. But they have, I think an interesting story to tell they are co founders of a company. And I'm sure they're going to tell us about that along with all sorts of other stuff. So we're really glad that you're here listening. And we're glad that Tracy and Michelle are here to talk with us. I want to welcome both of you to unstoppable mindset. Michelle Troseth 02:11Well, thank you, Michael, thank you so much. We're excited to be here. Michael Hingson 02:14Yes, we are. Michael Hingson 02:16Well, cool. I'm excited to have you. So that's as good as it gets. And we can all have fun. As always one of the rules of doing this podcast, I tell people as we do have to have fun. So that is important. Well tell me about your lives a little bit growing up sort of early years of Tracy and Michelle are Michelle and Tracy, whichever one of you wants to talk first. Michelle Troseth 02:38This is Michelle, I'll go first. Oh, there we go. Yes, I'll go first. And we did grow up together. And many ways. We were still growing Michael. So our background is is we're both from the state of Michigan. And we started out our careers in health care. And I'm a nurse. And and actually Tracy and I we we met early in our careers, we cared for patients together. And then we became leaders, we went into leadership roles. And we kind of grew up as leaders learned our leadership skills. And we started working with a phenomenal mentor, who was changing practice environments and hospitals. And we joined that journey with her and did a lot of transformation work in hospitals across North America. We ended up in corporations as executives. And then in 2018, after many, many years of doing a lot of hard work. We we decided to start our own company. And so we did that in 2018. But the other thing I want you to know about Tracy and I is we are also very good friends. We're BFFs and our husbands are best friends as well. And we love to travel together and play cards and golf. And so we have a whole playful side twist as well. Michael Hingson 03:54There you go. Yes, my my mother in law was loved to play cards and we would all play cards with her. And we always said she cheats because she always won. I mean, always won. So we like to say that she cheated, but you know, she didn't but it was so much fun. Tracy Christopherson 04:17We'd like to think she was cheating anyway. Right? Michael Hingson 04:19Yeah, it's kind of more fun. You know, it's an excuse anyway, to, you know, to to say that. But she she she loved to play Liverpool rummy and just all sorts of things and, and had a lot of fun. And we all did when was fun to play with her. Occasionally. She let us win. That's, that's our line anyway. Tracy Christopherson 04:38Yeah, for sure. Wow, were we like Euchre and it's always the girls against the guys and so you know, yeah, sometimes we think they're cheating and sometimes they think we are too. Michael Hingson 04:51I won't tell ya. Okay. Well, Tracy, what do you want to add to you? Oh, go Yeah, yeah, Tracy Christopherson 04:57well, I was just gonna say so I'm a respiratory thing. therapist by profession. And, and actually, you know, I had, you know, this experience that Michelle and I had working with healthcare organizations all across the country really was my learning ground for leadership. And, but I'm a learner. And that's one of my strengths. And so I reached a point where, you know, their real life experience just wasn't quite enough. And I wanted to have, I knew I was missing something in my education. So I went back to school to get my bachelor's and then I was egged on to get my master's. And then, lo and behold, I found myself getting a PhD. So I was on like, a 13 year journey, just going back to school to get a degree, but I got multiple ones. And it was really driven by my passion for interprofessional collaboration, really bringing teams together with diverse experiences to work together and, and deliver services. And, and a lot of that was, you know, kind of Michelle and I and the journey together, right, we were doing interprofessional work and healthcare organizations for it was cool. For anybody really knew what it was. And we partnered on so many projects together. And so it really, you know, led to my passion to get a PhD in interprofessional health care studies, but we actually met in high end hospital orientation. So it was, you know, kind of the stand up and shake the hand of the person behind you. And that was me, and we like to say we've been shaking hands ever since. And, and you know, in our course of our journey as leaders and working with many leaders across North America, we really saw the challenges that they faced, and everybody thinks their challenges are unique, right to us. Yeah, but they're not. And we saw the pattern across multiple leaders, multiple organizations, they were facing the same challenges over and over and over and unable to resolve them. They were unsolvable problems. And we had been had the great fortune to be exposed to polarity thinking, or Barry Johnson, and had leverage that in our work. And so we knew when we left corporate America in 2017, that we were destined to do something really important. And we decided what was really important was to bring this missing logic or this competency to healthcare leaders and to leaders in general, all across the world. So that's what we're doing now. Wow. Michael Hingson 07:31So Michelle Tracy was respiratory therapist. What were Michelle Troseth 07:35you? I was a nurse. Ah, Michael Hingson 07:40I still am. So you guys met at hospital orientations? So you didn't know each other growing up in school? Tracy Christopherson 07:46No, no, no, no, we didn't grow up on the same side of the state. I grew up on the east side who grew up on the west side. So we didn't meet till we were adults, orienting to a new healthcare system. Now, Michael Hingson 08:00where do you guys live now? Michelle Troseth 08:02But I live just outside of Grand Rapids, in a community called Hudsonville, Michigan, so still in West Michigan. Tracy Christopherson 08:10And I live three hours north, and a small resort town called going city near Lake Michigan. And then I'm here in the spring in the summer, early fall, and then I go to California in the winter. I don't like snow. I leave her here and I come to visit though. Why Michael Hingson 08:29don't you come to California to Yeah, one of these days. So Michael Hingson 08:34we're in California. We're in California. Do you go? Tracy Christopherson 08:37I go to Ukiah. Okay. Northern California. Napa. Yeah, right. Michael Hingson 08:44I lived in Novato for 12 years. And so we loved to go to Napa. I've been to Ukiah. But we we love Napa. We were 45 minutes, maybe an hour away from from Napa. went up there and join the Gloria Ferrara wine club, which was great because if you go there as a member, you get four free glasses of I call them champagne. They say sparkling wine because they don't want to tick off the French but you know, say what you want. So I'm still a member, even though my wife has passed. The problem is I'm not drinking it as fast as it comes in because I'm just not that much of a wine drinker. So I'm going to have to find a way to start dealing with that I may have to call on health care to us or what saved me if I do too much of that. Michael Hingson 09:31But still, well, so what? So Trey, so Michelle, you Michael Hingson 09:36didn't say you went to college? Yes, Michelle Troseth 09:38I did. I got my bachelor's at Grand Valley State University here in West Michigan and my master's in nursing there as well. But Michael Hingson 09:46you haven't haven't been persuaded to go off and get a PhD to have equal billing or something like that. No, Michelle Troseth 09:53I was told by my husband and my best friend Tracy. I was not allowed to do that. Michael Hingson 10:00Definitely it. I have a master's degree and I'm fine with that. Yeah. Michelle Troseth 10:09I have to, I have to. And after watching Tracy and her journey, I'm just, I'm a good cheerleader. Tracy Christopherson 10:16A whole nother podcast, Michael. Michael Hingson 10:20There's always student loan debt. Right. So I Tracy Christopherson 10:23didn't have any of that I just had some challenging a challenging journey. But it was all done for me. Yeah, made me who I am today. I'm grateful for valuable thing. Oh, yeah. Michael Hingson 10:33And I understand, we all are a product of our choices, which is pretty cool. When you talk about this new competency that you're teaching leaders. And I'll, before I ask you specifically about that, why did you decide specifically to start a company to deal with addressing issues for leaders and so on? Michelle Troseth 10:55Well, we, because no one was talking about this really, or maybe just small pockets of people. And we knew what a game changer it was. And we had applied it into our own lives both personally. And we had helped organizations and I can tell you, Tracy and I do a lot of speaking. And whenever we would introduce this polarity concept, or having a polarity mindset to an audience, people always got excited, they would say things like, oh my gosh, this makes so much sense. Or I always knew these things were connected, but I never knew how. And it has such implications because we waste so much time, money and resources trying to fix the same problems, when they're not really problems, they really are polarities. And so we just knew this was something that was very needed. And we knew it starts with the leadership, if the leadership doesn't understand it, the staff don't have a chance and the organization's will never be able to sustain a lot of the hard work they put into fixing problems. So that's, that was our thing. We're like, we're gonna go out there and we're gonna bring this to the world. And we named it missing logic, because it's missing. Yeah, Michael Hingson 12:07I hear you, what do you mean by polarities? Tracy Christopherson 12:11So polarities are interdependent pairs of values or points of view or perspectives. And they are, they appear to be contradictory and, or opposing to each other. But they are interdependent, and they need each other over time to reach a greater purpose that neither value would alone. So you know, we have problems, problems, we use either or thinking we get more, you know, a couple different solutions. We pick the one we want to apply, and we're done. But polarities are ongoing, they never ends. And that's why these challenges that leaders were facing, and trying to apply either or thinking to wasn't working, right, because you can't treat a polarity that way, you have to use what we call a both and mindset, because these values are interdependent and need each other. Yeah. Michael Hingson 13:08Well, you've, you've written a book about, about all of this with polarities, too, haven't you? When did you write that? Michelle Troseth 13:16During COVID. Time to do it. Tracy Christopherson 13:21There you go, whatever you're gonna do, right? Yeah, we Michelle Troseth 13:24were locked up. And we said, Okay, this and and the other thing too, Michael, that was really great is we worked with leaders during COVID. We did virtual coaching sessions, virtual mentorship programs. So we were learning a ton. And then we thought, this is the perfect time to write this book. So the name of the book is polarity, intelligence, the missing logic in leadership. And what we're so proud of is we were able to take all the concepts we've been working with having a polarity or both and mindset, the need to have healthy relationships to engage your workforce and your colleagues and your family in a way that you come together with intention, and you have a shared purpose with why you are together and meaningful dialogue. And when you're dealing with polarities, and they cause tension. It's really important to have the communication skills, the dialogue skills, to invite conversation to understand those different perspectives as well. So we put all of those together and call it now polarity intelligence. And it's it's we have the first book coming out with it, so it's pretty exciting. So Michael Hingson 14:33it's polarity intelligence out. Michelle Troseth 14:37It is available for pre order right now. So you can go to your favorite bookstore and buy it and preorder it's going to be released on January 16 2024. And hot off the press. We just found out today we already hit the bestseller lists on Barnes and Noble. Wow. Get out the bubbles get up and go I'm Michael Hingson 15:00gonna go get one of those bottles of champagne here. Yeah. But I don't want to drink in front of you. So that is exciting. Yeah, sorry, that that's happening. Well, so. So tell me, I guess a little bit more about this whole concept of polarity intelligence? And how do you how do you teach it to people? And well, and how is it received? I guess from a book standpoint, it's received well, but in general, when you're dealing with people, how do they how do they receive it or deal with it? 15:33Well, that's a great question, you know, so let's start with a little bit more about it. So people that so your listeners kind of have some context to what we're talking about. And a really easy way to understand a polarity is inhaling and exhaling. Because that is a polarity our body manages for us all day, every day. And we have to inhale to receive oxygen and exhale to remove carbon dioxide. And the greater purpose of that is to sustain life, and it's the only polarity that's leveraged or managed for us. And our body just takes care of that. And, and so we kind of really start there with helping people to understand what a polarity is in and of itself. And then our overall objective is to help them to understand how polarities work because there's some various principles that they operate on. And as an example, you know, when you have a polarity, you have two poles, they're interdependent, and they need each other. So one is not more important than the other. So inhaling is not more important than exhaling, I have to have both if I want to sustain life, and if I don't have both, I'm gonna die, right? That's a negative consequence. The another principle that we teach people is that when you over emphasize one pole and you neglect the other, there's always a negative consequence, you are always going to lose the positive benefits of the pole that you neglect. So there's always a consequence to that. And and then I think the other thing too, is really what we want to do is leverage these healthy relationships and the meaningful dialogue, when we sit in conversation with the if you think about the tensions we've experienced, as people in our countries internationally, you know, people are walking away from conversations because they don't want to engage, right? It's some very high values, people hold dearly, and it can create significant tension. And so to sit in that tension, and to sit in that those contradictory, or opposing perspectives, you really have to have a strong relationship, and you have to know how to have conversation. So we teach them the principles around healthy relationships. And we teach them the principles of dialogue, so that they can really transcend their own personal biases and open up to hear the perspectives of others because both perspectives are right. One is not more right than the other, it's just really understanding how the two work together. So those are a few ways that we kind of set some context for them, and then teach them the principles of how polarities operate. So they can understand it is a universal principle. So it applies to everybody. You can't ignore it, it's like gravity, we like to say, it's always there. They're always working on you, there's 1000s of them. And you really have to be able to recognize them to leverage them. So that's our initial steps is to help them understand them, recognize them, begin to leverage them, and develop the skills of healthy relationships, and meaningful dialogue. So they can do that as easily as possible. Michael Hingson 18:55If you would give me an example of polarities in business or leadership to do some sort of concrete example, if you can. Sure. Michelle Troseth 19:05So again, they're everywhere. But in businesses, does it matter if it's a small business like ours, or a really large business, they all deal with the same polarities, and probably a very common one is margin and mission, right? You have to always be balancing the margin coming into the organization so you can grow and thrive. And you have to be focused on mission of why you exist in order to create a sustainable business. So that's a major one, another one for businesses that we run into all the time and we leverage these in our business, Michael is individual and team. So every person in a business or a company has a role has a purpose. They need to they need to practice or deliver their services, the best they can individually and they're part of a team. So how the team works together is equally important. And, and you need to get that polarity, right size and well balance. So that's another common one. Also process and progress, right? You have to have infrastructures processes to run a business. And you need to be marking progress as you grow as well. And so that's another polarity that we use in our business. And there's, there's a lot more now leadership. I'm glad you said leadership too, because there's also polarities, that you have to leverage as a leader, such as candor, and diplomacy, your communication, again, is really important. In even leading and managing as a polarity, they have different attributes, they're to have different skills. And so we work with leaders on that one as well. Michael Hingson 20:47Too many bosses think they're leaders, I, you're with me, you're you're right there with me. Too many leaders, too many bosses think they're leaders and they may or nine, they may not be leaders at all. And you're right, they are totally different things. I know that. And I've talked about it here before, that, when I hire salespeople, one of the things I've always told them was, look, I hired you, I'm not here to boss you around. And my job, I believe, is to find ways to add value to you to help you be more successful. And you and I have to figure that out together. And that's a lot different than so many bosses would do. They missed the whole point of what would really make them a much more effective leader of the people they work with. 21:38Yes, that. Yeah. And at the same time, you need some of those strengths of the manager, right, the one that's gonna make sure everything gets done and has all the processes and the infrastructures and manages that. So that's why you have to have both, but it's, it's balancing that knowing when the manager needs to step up, and knowing when the leader needs to step up in you, right, and you apply those, you know, you're looking for those outcomes simultaneously. But at different times, you're gonna need to be more of a manager at different times, you need to be more of a of a leader. And so it's really understanding that, but I think Michael Hingson 22:14the real issue is that people that work for you need to understand when you're a manager, why you're a manager, in other words, you you do have to set the boundaries, you do have to set the rules. Yeah. And people who understand that and internalize it will be a lot happier and a lot more successful in the workforce. Right? Yeah, that's true. That's true. Which is, which is kind of really important to be able to do, but it really is a fascinating concept, to you know, to do this. How do you. So you've been doing this now, since you said, What 2017 2018? Is 22:55that business that we've been managing? for over 20 years? Right, Michael Hingson 22:59right. But now you have your own business? You're doing it? 23:03How do you teach it? Well, Michelle Troseth 23:07we teach it in various ways, our most common way these days is virtually. And actually we like to tell the story that Tracy and I got zoom before anyone knew what it was, seems like. So we do we do virtual education, virtual coaching, we have virtual mentorship programs. And it's amazing how much teaching and application and connection you can do over the internet. But we also teach it in keynote speeches, just the concept to leaders. And we teach it in workshops. We have a group of leaders that there are out they love this so much. They're in a mastermind group. We work with them over the year, and they just deepen their understanding they achieve incredible outcomes, we get together face to face twice a year at our retreat. Location. And we do a lot with the whole polarity intelligence with him through those different experiences, and we teach it on our podcast. Yeah, 24:08yeah. Well, go ahead. No, go ahead. Well, I was just gonna say, you know, from a kind of a concrete perspective, you can map a polarity. So we really use blueprints and maps so that people can make the polarity that they are trying to leverage concrete and actionable. So in these in these in person settings, we actually put a big polarity map on the floor and we walk this polarity map with them and, and help them to really dive deep and understand what the polarity really is, which is the outcomes that they want the consequences. They'll experience right the actions they need to take, and the early warning signs that will keep them on track and keep them from over focusing or emphasizing one or the other. So that's really a fun exercise and leaders love to kind have really stepped into it. And that in that real in person way. Michael Hingson 25:05Makes a lot of sense. Have you found people who resist it? Tracy Christopherson 25:08I've not found anybody who resisted it. Michael Hingson 25:11That's great. 25:11I haven't either, I think because they haven't experienced of it, but they didn't know what it was. So we often have people come up to and say, Oh, my gosh, I finally know what it is I've been experiencing, I finally have words to describe it. And that's the benefit. Well, you know, what we're teaching it to say like, they have experienced it, like we experienced gravity. But they didn't have a common language to explain what it was and how it felt. And now they do. So when they read the book, or when we teach it, they'll have that common language and way to describe what it is that they're experiencing, and others will understand it as well. Michael Hingson 25:51That is pretty cool. And I was gonna say earlier. Yeah, I forgot you do have a podcast. Tell us about your podcast. Michelle Troseth 25:59Well, our podcast is in transition right now. Michael Hingson 26:04But from one hole to the other, I 26:08couldn't resist. Michelle Troseth 26:11That was really great. That was really like, Michael Hingson 26:12it's yours. You can have it. Michelle Troseth 26:16Yeah, well, we started a podcast in 2019. The name of it is Healthcare's missing logic podcast, because our audience at that time was primarily healthcare leaders. But as we grew, and as more people listen to us, we got asked, Do you work with other leaders? Do you work with educators? Can you go work with Congress? Michael Hingson 26:37I mean, we've had some Well, there's another story there. Yeah. 26:41That's another podcast episode that Yeah, another whole Michael Hingson 26:43podcast. But yeah. Michelle Troseth 26:46And so and now we have really developed a really robust, thriving, resilient, unstoppable, we call it true leader mentorship program, and we attract leaders that want to have thriving, resilient, unstoppable, which is why we like being on your podcast lives. And so we just, we're gonna change it to be more it's going to be the true leader podcast is really focused on balancing, leaving and living to represent both personal and professional poles as a leader. Michael Hingson 27:18And, and that brings up a very important point, you got to have that life balance between living and working and living and leading on the job and all that. And I'm sure that that must be one of the big issues that all too many people are victims of, if you will, that you find right. 27:41Oh, yes. Oh, yes. Michael Hingson 27:45How do you how do you get them to deal with that, but I got to spend this time at my company, I can't not do that. 27:52Well, the answer really comes in our true leader mentorship program, because it starts with understanding polarities, and that your professional life and your personal life is a polarity that work life balance isn't a problem to solve. It's not an either or, and that you actually have to give attention to both your personal life and professional life to get that highest quality life that you want to really thrive both at work and at home. And so we've developed a framework that's called the dynamic balance effect framework. And it has, has combination of strategies that when you put them together, enables leaders to create a dynamic balance lifestyle, and it becomes a part of who they are. So they leveraged polarities, they learn about that, that polarity, they create a blueprint, their own unique blueprint for how they're going to manage the tension between the two, you know, both the professional life and the personal life. And that's one aspect of it. And then we also help them to understand, one of the other pillars that we have is mindful choices. And we're always making choices, Michael, sometimes we're aware of the choices we're making, sometimes we make them unconsciously. But we're always making choices and living with the results of those choices. And what we want is make choices that are based on our highest values that are aligned with who we are, that we're live, help us to be in integrity. So you know, we want to make sure we're aligned to the values, we're clear on the values and we live by our principles. And so we really help them to get that clarity identify who it is they need to be in this new life that they're designing. And then another pillar really is personal alignment. And this is about harnessing tools and processes and infrastructures that help them to really kind of, you know, experience of peace and joy and the life that they want because they're aligning their actions to the essence of who they really are. They know what their purpose is. They know their streaks, everything. becomes a little bit more easy and effortless when you have that clarity. And so we kind of use these three pillars, combined together to help them get that dynamic balance effect. And it's a lot of reflection and looking at the beliefs that we hold the norms that we operate under, and letting go of some things that don't really just don't serve us. And sometimes those are blind spots. And so we shine a light on the blind spots, help them reveal them, and then work through your processes to overcome them. Michael Hingson 30:28What kind of a process do you go through to analyze any given individual or leader in terms of determining how best to apply the dynamic balance effect framework to them? Or to, to bring them into it? I mean, because obviously, you have to take while you have similarities, each case is different. Michelle Troseth 30:50Yeah, yeah. So there's a couple different things we do we do. We can do polarity assessments. So we actually have a methodology where we can actually assess how well you're managing different polarities, you know, how well are you managing your personal life and your professional life, your activity and rest, caring for yourself and caring for others, and we can show them, and then help them create more effective action steps and coach them around that. And then when it comes to personal alignment, we do spend a lot of time just getting to know their strengths. So we have various assessments that we do for that to really determine how are they wired, really what makes them tick, because everybody is different. And then they are able to apply those results to their blueprints, and their other tools that we provide them so they actually can accelerate and meet the goals that they're going after. And so those are, those are just some ways where we do measurement, and we do we also track progress with their goals over time as well. And they've had an amazing transformation results, it's been so much fun. 31:59Well, they do a life inventory as well. So they look at their life, from a lot of different perspectives, all the components of their life, and they have others also look at their life, and others do the polarity assessment to get a perspective outside of themselves. So we invite them, to have people closest to them, give them some real, you know, candid perspectives about what they see in their life. And, and that's also very helpful for them. When it comes down to it, it's up to them to decide what's the most the highest priority polarity for me, what's the highest priority skill or habit I need to develop? And we just can, you know, provide them with a guidance and coach them along the way to remove any barriers, just keep getting the barriers out of the way, because that's, that's really 90% of it. That's just getting the barriers out of the way we know what we need to do, we just don't do it, right? Michael Hingson 32:54Well, you're right. And also, all too often, people are so resistive to, to change their resistive to really analyzing themselves, because we don't teach people how to do that. I'm a great fan of introspection, spending time at the end of the day, what went well, what didn't go well, even what went well, could I have done it better. And I have grown to not like liking to use the term failure, other than it's an opportunity to look at what I did, and figure out how to do it better. But we become so defeated so often. And like, I hear all the time, people are afraid of public speaking, and it's one of people's greatest fears. And it shouldn't be if we would learn what public speaking is really all about, which is talking with an audience, not to an audience. And again, it's just the kind of thing that people are so resistive to so many of the kinds of concepts I think that you're talking about. And leaders, hopefully are, in general a little bit different because they are leaders and they're open to it or you are able to work with them to get them to that point, but it must be a challenge. 34:13Wow. Yeah, the truth is, aren't we're wired to stay in our comfort zones, right? Our brains are wired to keep us safe. And so we have, you know, we react physically, when we don't when we're uncertain about the future or what experience we're going to have. So any uncertainty can unleash a sense of anxiety and us or we can hear that little little, you know, chatter in our brain on you don't need to do that you just stay right where you're at. It's really nice and comfortable here. You know, it's not easy, but you know what you're dealing with. So this is a lot better than going out there and trying something different. What if you fail in our brains, our subconscious feeds us all this so it's really just increasing awareness of what We're saying to ourselves and how our brain is trying to keep us safe. It's what it's designed to do. But that's only because it doesn't know that it's okay to step out of the comfort zone. And so we really do a lot of coaching around that aspect. Because those are the things mostly that hold us back, is that we just resist, because it's ingrained in us to resist it's a part of our brain. So we have to train our brain. No, you know what, sometimes you just have to say, You know what, I appreciate what you're trying to do. But it's really okay for me to make this chance. It's really okay for me to take this chance to step out and do this. And you have to just kind of work with yourself around that. Michael Hingson 35:41I, I agree, I hear what you're saying. It's the other side of it, though, is that we don't teach people to deal with fear. I know that for me, having been in the World Trade Center and escaping. People always say, Well, you weren't afraid because you couldn't see what was going on. And it's so difficult to get people to understand. Keep in mind that the airplane in our building hit on if I were to average it between 93 and 99. Floor, the 96th floor on the north side of the building, and I was on the south side of the building on the 78th floor. How was I supposed to know what happened the last time I checked X ray vision, and Superman are fiction, right. And the reality is going down the stairs, no one knew no one knew that we had been attacked by terrorists, we figured out that an airplane hit the building, because we were spilling the fumes from burning jet fuel, and I identified that odor. But four floors down from when we entered the stairwell. So is probably about the 74th floor that I figured out that's the fumes from burning jet fuel when we figured that out. But I wasn't afraid going down the stairs. For I think a couple of reasons. One is, I always liked the concept. Don't worry about what you can control, focus on what you can and leave the rest alone because you can't do anything about it anyway, I didn't articulate that for the longest period of time. But I think that is something that's been in my makeup for a long time. The other part about it is, however, that I think that fear is something that is all too often taught and that if you have knowledge, and essentially what you're talking about, with knowledge, you can learn not to be blinded by fear, as I call it, or paralyzed by fear or overwhelmed, whatever you want to call it. But that fear can in fact, become a powerful tool for you, not against you. And so I'm actually working on on a book about that we actually, with a colleague, we've written a book about that. And the idea is that you can learn to control fear. And yeah, you may have some reactions when something doesn't go just the way you think. But you can learn to control your fears, and allow yourself to be able to move forward in a much more organized way that you don't have to let fear overwhelm you. Tracy Christopherson 38:09Right, right. Yeah. And I think it's important to know, where's the fear coming from? Right? What is it that we're afraid of? Right. And I think working through those processes, sometimes, just getting that deeper understanding can help you release that fear and realize, Well, really, there isn't anything, nothing terrible is going to happen, right? In many instances. So it's just kind of really getting to know yourself, and where your fears come from, I think is a very healthy way to look at fear. And Michael Hingson 38:37that's a lot of it. And the reality is that we we don't, we're not encouraged to do that kind of self reflecting and self analysis and internalizing of what's going on. So the result is we react rather than thinking more about it, which is, in a sense, maybe another kind of missing logic. Yeah. 38:59Wow. Right. Right. But and it comes from our past. Yeah, to your point, because we haven't been educated or trained or haven't learned for that self reflection and, and right to do all that from the time we were children. We just respond based on our past programming based on the things that we've experienced in the past. That's what how our brain gets wired. So we don't have that to draw from so you have to build this skill to your brain. Michael Hingson 39:27Yeah, right. And I know for me, having been blind my whole life, I've been in a lot of situations where there have been unpredictable kinds of circumstances. I mean, heck, I lived. Well, anytime I cross the street. There's the potential of a car coming down the street that I missed, or that isn't stopping and I always have to be alert. What am I going to do about that? Or when I lived in in Massachusetts for three years? I live In the state that had the reputation of having had the eye, the highest accident rate per capita in the country, and I'm sitting there crossing the street with all these crazy cars coming down the street. So, for me, I learned that I have to be observant and not be afraid otherwise, why go out at all? And so that doesn't mean that you just go put yourself in danger. But it doesn't mean that you can deal with different things that go on. Michael Hingson 40:31Right? Yep. Yep. Great point. So Michael Hingson 40:35it becomes one of the the issues to deal with well, so we wrote a book about it called Live like a guide dog. And the end. And the point is that I've had a number of Guide Dogs and other dogs in my life. And the idea is that dogs can fear. But more often than not, fear is learned like my fifth guide dog, Roselle was not afraid of thunder at all. Until we moved to New Jersey and live there for almost a year before she started exhibiting fear reactions and shaking and shivering whenever there was a thunderstorm coming. What we also learned is that a lot of that had to do with the fact that as the storm would approach, the static build up on her, gave her this Prickly, uncomfortable feeling. And then you get the thunder that goes with it. It caused kind of a fear reaction. And again, now we know more about dealing with that. And there are ways to teach dogs that they don't need to be afraid of thunder treats always help. But you know, that's a part of it. But but the reality is, again, I think it's it's true for for humans, we need to learn that we can analyze what's going on, as you said earlier, and use that to better analyze ourselves and go Well, why are we reacting to this? Right? So you, you spend a lot of time obviously working with the people who you have the opportunity to work with to get to get them to to analyze all that. How long do you end up after on average working with clients? Or is it kind of almost a lifelong kind of thing? Michelle Troseth 42:18Well, sometimes they might be with us just for a 12 month program. And sometimes we've had leaders with this going on for years. So I just really depends on what their needs are, what their you know, what their goals are. But we do have some that, you know, they just love working with 42:39us. All right, well, you know, they sign unity, right? Yeah, it's a community. It's 42:44a community. Yeah, yeah. They like being a part of that community 42:47and supporting each other and learning from each other. And so that's, that's another aspect of the work that we do, we really are strong believers in the community and the supportive community. And we know leaders are longing for that right now. And especially leaders that find themselves in, in environments that don't feel psychologically safe. They're really looking to connect with others that are experienced some of the same things they're experiencing. And so we do have an ongoing community that people engage in as well. Yeah. Michael Hingson 43:21immunity is a very strong tool that can help a lot too. Which is really, which is really pretty cool. Well, you know, leaders are people. Well, how come leaders often suffer from burnout? How come that happens? Michelle Troseth 43:40Well, what happens with when in leadership roles. Sometimes what happens is you're with other leaders, and there's an expectation of behavior and thoughts that are based on shared beliefs of how you should act as a leader, how things that's just the way things are here. And, and then you become even maybe unaware that you are doing those behaviors, behaviors or having those thoughts. And so what happens is leaders just develop a tracing I call leadership norms. And those norms can actually be harmful over time. So an example of one is servant leadership. You know, servant leadership is a good thing. And it reinforces everybody before me, the leader eats last and over time, that has a negative impact on the leader and they do suffer from exhaustion and burnout. And you know, we have learned a lot from the airline industry, that there's a reason why they have you put your oxygen mask on first so that you can help others. And it's not an it's not a norm for leaders to do that. They always think about even during COVID They thought more about their teams than they did about themselves. And you know just how hard you have to work as As a leader, there's a whole norm around that. Long hours work hard climbing the ladder. And another metaphor that Tracy and I like to use is, you know, marathon runners know, they have to pace themselves. And you don't become a marathon runner, you know, by running 26 miles the day of the race, you have to, you have to practice the polarity of activity, and rest. And, and that's a lot like leadership, we're in it for the long haul, we have to learn how to care for ourselves and care for others. And what leaders are developing is what Tracy and I call the imbalanced leader syndrome. And we we see it all the time, we have leaders every week that say, Yep, I have that, you know, because they got overflowing to do lists of competing priorities. There are financial and people resources are limited, which causes stress. They lack balance between their work and home. And they're basically just exhausted and unfulfilled. And they know, I think the key thing right now is they're really wondering if they can continue. And so they, they don't have a strategy for work life balance, that's the other thing that we really help them with. But that's some of the reasons we see leaders get burned out. Michael Hingson 46:16Yeah, and you know, it, I liked the concept. And I've always liked the concept of servant leadership, but I do understand that it can be carried too far. And we need to understand that the best servants are the ones who really are prepared to do it. And it's okay to be and I think is appropriate to be if you're a leader, a servant, because your job is to help but at the same time, you can't do that if you're not properly prepared either. Tracy Christopherson 46:44Right? Well, when it's, it's good until the point where you start to neglect yourself. And what happens is they prioritize everybody before themselves, and then they start to neglect their needs. Neglect, what you know, what's important to them. And they start to make mistakes, which cause burnout, right, like making themselves available and accessible 24/7 And saying yes, when they return request when they really want to say no, and bringing work home and staying late working on vacation, and sacrificing time with family and friends to work and all of those things add up and build up over time. And that's what you know, can also lead to that imbalance leader syndrome or to burnout and exhaustion because they don't give themselves a rest in the things that they need to thrive and survive. And, and we're not saying don't serve to your point to but take care of yourself so that you can be that incredible leader you want to be because the stronger your personal life is, the more you know resilience you're going to have, the more mental clarity you're going to have, the more stamina you're going to have, the more ability you're going to have to serve the way that you want to serve. Michael Hingson 47:57My most graphic example of that actually relates to one of my guide dogs. My six guide dog Merrill got Merrill in 2007. Roselle had to retire. She had guided for eight years, but she also contracted an immune disease immune mediated thrombocytopenia. So her body was going after her her immune system was going after platelets and so on. Anyway, so marrow came along, and it looked well for a little while. But then we started noticing that Meryl wouldn't play with the other dogs. We had two other dogs in the house, Rosella retired guide dog. And we also were what were called breeder keepers for Guide Dogs for the Blind. The breeding stock would not stay in kennels all the time, but would live in people's homes except when they were doing their puppy things. So Meryl wouldn't play with the other dogs. And it got worse and worse. And as I eventually described it, she had a type A personality, she could not leave work at the office, she wouldn't play with him. She followed me everywhere. And if they tried to play, she actually curled her lip a few times. And eventually, after about 18 months of well, once the bananas about 14 months of guiding. She started becoming very fearful of even guiding and wearing a guide dog harness. And eventually, the people that Guide Dogs for the Blind, observed her and agreed, and we had to retire her because she was just afraid to guide anymore. She just couldn't handle the stress of guiding on top of the stress that she was putting on herself. Oh, yeah. And the result is that, you know, she did, she did retire. And then we got Africa who was my seventh guide dog, whose mother was the breeder dog that we were caring for, which was just sort of a coincidence, but Africa was the total opposite of Maryland Africa did find around people. We have alimony, he does well, but it is interesting because to talk about Meryl, she just got to the point where she could not take the stress. And it was more self imposed, although she never realized that, of course, but it was well, and 50:15that's true for people to write. Some of these norms are self imposed, and we follow them. And we don't have to, but people need permission to let it go. They need to know it's okay to do something different to behave differently. So Michael Hingson 50:31yeah, absolutely. That's, that's really the whole issue. Is that right? You got to learn that. And that was something that we could never teach Merrill, no matter what we tried. And so it just didn't work out that way. But it's just one of those things. But for me, so really graphic example of what you're talking about. And the other you know, if I were to also ask this, I just thought about it. We've been talking about leaders, what is the leader? How's that for a general question? Michelle Troseth 51:01Well, sometimes we say everybody's a leader. You know, I think there's leader roles in pretty much everywhere in organizations and churches and schools and businesses. Certainly, in families, there's leaders, you know, and so it everyone can step into a leadership role, and I think have leadership qualities, you know, I think there's the title, but there's also attributes of leadership that anybody can really exhibit. 51:36So, and I think that's holding the vision, right? Yes, whether it's a family or an organization, it's really, you know, somebody that holds the vision for who we are, where we're headed. They, you know, to your point earlier, right, they're nurturing the people that are doing the work or taking the actions to move closer to the vision. And they're just that, you know, they're kind of that, you know, they're they're just that nurturing, they create a nurturing environment, and a healthy environment that enables people to bring their gifts, they lean into the strengths of others, and they bring people together, they connect people, to move the, you know, the efforts forward to move and strive towards the goals or the vision of who and who you're, who you are and what you're trying to achieve. And they kind of hold that container for people to really step into all they can be and, and guide that, you know, guide those individuals in groups and teams, I think. Yeah, so Michael Hingson 52:45think that, from a leader standpoint, one of the things that I have found is that true people who lead also know, when it's time to let someone else take the lead on some given thing, because they have some gift or tool that will serve the team better than the so called leader. And I think that's again, one of the differences going back to near the beginning of today, between a leader and a boss, because I don't think their bosses necessarily know that unless they truly understand leadership. Michelle Troseth 53:23Yeah, well, there's a there's a polarity and leading and following to sometimes you have to know when to follow, right? And sometimes you need to know when to lead. So yeah. Michael Hingson 53:35For me, again, going back to guide dogs, people mostly don't understand what a guide dog does. The purpose of a guide dog is to make sure that we walk safely, the dog doesn't know where I want to go, or how to get there. And very frankly, I don't want the dog to know where to go and how to get there. Because that's, that's not their job, and how are they going to know. And too many people think, oh, it's amazing how your dog just knows everything. Well, it's not quite the way it works. But it's also true that we in every sense of the word form a team dog has a job to do, I have a job to do. And we need to build up on an extremely high level of trust. And understanding that we both know what our jobs are, and we know what the other individuals jobs is, so that we can be the most successful as we're walking somewhere or going from place to place that we can. And again, it works really well when the dog knows that it can respect me, and that I'm going to respect the job of the dog and give the dog the support it needs. Because the dog in turn will do the same for me. Dogs want somebody to be as Cesar Mallanna would say a pack leader, but at the same time in the case of a guide dog and person, their time When the dog will be able to take the initiative? And should? Michael Hingson 55:05Yeah, that makes so much sense. Michael Hingson 55:09Yeah, it's, it's pretty cool to see it and really understand it when it happens. Well, if people want to reach out to you guys and make contact and so on and maybe explore working with you, how do they do that? Michelle Troseth 55:27Well, the best thing to do is to go to our website, which is missing logic.com. And both of our emails are on the website. So that's really great. And we also have a large LinkedIn following in their in our handle for LinkedIn is missing logic LLC. So that's another great place to find us and kind of follow what we're doing. And then we're also in the process of starting a polarity intelligence website for our book. So there will be information about the book, information about us as authors. And so that's another place where listeners can go Michael Hingson 56:05when the book comes out. Are you looking to make it an audio book as well? One would hope? Yes, yeah. And intent? 56:14Oh, yeah, it takes a little bit. It takes a little bit of time after the book has to be out for a little bit before we can start that process. So but yes, definitely. Michael Hingson 56:23Are you self publishing? Or do you have a publisher? 56:26We have a publisher, Morgan, James Publishing? Michael Hingson 56:29I'm sorry, what company? Tracy Christopherson 56:30Morgan, James Morgan, James. Michael Hingson 56:32Okay. Well, it's exciting that it's coming out and the name of the book again, Michelle Troseth 56:37polarity, intelligence, the missing logic in leadership. Michael Hingson 56:41There you go. Well, I hope people will seek out the book, and they will seek out you I think it's important to do that. And I think that you offer a lot. I certainly have appreciated you being here. Are there any kind of last things that you want to offer to people before we wrap this up? Well, I Michelle Troseth 57:00just want to thank you again, Michael. It's been just a joy to get to know you, and the unstoppable podcasts and the great work that you're doing in the world. And so it just, you know, I we knew it was gonna be a great conversation. It was so just leaving full of gratitude. Michael Hingson 57:15Yes, Tracy Christopherson 57:16thank you so much, Michael. It's really been a pleasure. Well, appreciate the opportunity. Michael Hingson 57:21Hi, as well, this has been absolutely enjoyable. And we should do it again. Sometime after the book comes out. I'm sure you'll have lots more stories to tell. Oh, yes, Michael Hingson 57:29yes, yes, we will do it. Well, thank Michael Hingson 57:33you. Thank you both again, and I want to thank you for listening. We hope you've enjoyed it. And Tracy and Michelle have a lot to offer. So please go seek them out. And I am sure if you are dealing with any kind of leadership issues or whatever, they will help you deal with the polarities and fix it. And they're absolutely right. Both sides of a pole or both polarities and anything have to be there or it doesn't work. I love to talk about magnets, you know, you need a north pole and a south pole. And the reality is that one doesn't really make the process work very well. You do have to have both. So thanks again for listening to us. If you'd like to reach out to me, I'd love to hear from you. Please email me at Michaelhi at accessiBe.com accessiBe spelled A c c e s s i b e and it's Michael m i c h a e l h i at accessibe.com. Or go to our podcast page, www www dot Michael m i c h a e l Hingson. H i n g s o n.com/podcast. And wherever you're listening, please give us a five star rating. We love those and really appreciate that and your reviews. We value your input and your thoughts very highly. And for both of you, as well as all of you listening, if you know anyone else who ought to be a guest on unstoppable mindset, please let us know. We're always looking for more people to bring on and have on his guests and have more fun conversations. So please don't hesitate to make any recommendations that you have. And so, one last time, Tracy and Michelle, I want to thank you both for being here very much. Michelle Troseth 59:14Thank you. Michael Hingson 59:19You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com . AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

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Rachel Serwetz didn’t start off as a career coach. She grew up in New York, went to Binghamton University where, as she says, she had no real idea what she wanted to do. So, her major was a general one which left her with lots of options. After college she went to work for Goldman Sachs for three years. While she felt she was successful there she didn’t really feel that her interests aligned with the work she was doing. After three years at Goldman Sachs, she moved to a job at a hedge fund, Bridgewater Associates. That job put her in a bit more of a role to help with recruitment and training. Still, she felt she wasn’t truly pursuing what she should do. In 2017 she decided to go out on her own to begin career coaching to help people develop better job satisfaction as well as to better understand whether and/or if they were in the right job for them. Today she coaches clients mostly throughout the U.S. and Canada, but she does have international clients from elsewhere in the world. If you want to explore your own career path direction, reach out to Rachel. About the Guest: Rachel Serwetz worked at Goldman Sachs and Bridgewater Associates before pursuing coaching, training and certification. Rachel is the visionary behind WOKEN, a platform designed to enhance job satisfaction and reduce job hopping by facilitating clarity on one’s best fit career path. She later became an ICF-certified PCC-level coach, where she combines her strengths in career coaching with systemized frameworks to successfully guide hundreds of professionals to realize career fulfillment. She has served as an adjunct professor of entrepreneurship at Binghamton University. She has also served as career coach through the Flatiron School, WeWork, Columbia University, Slate, Project Activate, and other organizations. She has also partnered with organizations such as Fishbowl, Power To Fly, NYU, and others, to help spread career clarity to the masses. Ways to connect with Rachel: Our website: https://www.iamwoken.com/My personal linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/rachelserwetz/Free career resource library: www.iamwoken.com/resourcesFree coaching call: calendly.com/woken/demoOur Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/getwoken/Our Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/getWOKENOur TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@getwokenOur LinkedIn: thttps://www.linkedin.com/company/woken/ About the Host:Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children’s Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association’s 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.comhttps://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/https://twitter.com/mhingsonhttps://www.youtube.com/user/mhingsonhttps://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ accessiBe Linkshttps://accessibe.com/https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBehttps://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can also subscribe in your favorite podcast app. Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts. Transcription Notes:

Michael Hingson 00:00Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us. Michael Hingson 01:21Hi, there I am Michael Hingson, your host for unstoppable mindset where inclusion diversity in the unexpected meet, we get to do a bunch of that all the time. It's a lot of fun today, we get to chat with Rachel Serwetz. And Rachel worked for Goldman Sachs for a while she has become a pretty significant person in the world of coaching and has a lot of things to say about that. Talking about employment employees and employee hopping, and other things like that, or employment hopping, I guess is a better term. But we'll get to all that. And I expect that we're going to have a lot of fun. So Rachel, thanks for being here. And welcome to unstoppable mindset. Rachel Serwetz 02:01Yeah. Thanks for having me. Michael Hingson 02:03And we're really glad that you're here. And looking forward to the day. Well, tell us a little bit about you kind of growing up maybe the early Rachel, if you will? Oh, yes, let's say, a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away. Yeah, exactly. Rachel Serwetz 02:20I mean, I grew up on Long Island, New York. And honestly, I just was working hard in school, I didn't know the direction I wanted to go in for my career. I just kind of knew, like, work hard. And you'll probably figure it out later. You know, I don't know if I fully knew exactly where school was gonna lead. But I just figured get good grades, someone will probably pay attention to that eventually. So yeah, and then I needed to figure out college. And my dad always wanted me to be a doctor. And I never really had a reason to question it. And then finally, you know, going to college was the moment where people were finally like, what is it you want to do? And I, you know, started thinking about it and realize that my previous experiences in the health field weren't something that really drew me, you know, to it. And so I ended up going to Binghamton, as an undecided major, which was the best thing I could have done. And I think every student should, you know, it's funny because they are undecided. And yet, they have to somehow pick and so I eventually picked Human Development, which was super broad. It was kind of like psychology, sociology. And that allowed me to just figure out what I really wanted to do. I leaned a lot into like business internships and just explore and did a lot of projects and just got involved with things on campus and tried to figure out what it is. I wanted to do from there. But I will pause, I can keep going through the story. But that's kind of me up until college days. Michael Hingson 03:59So you Well, I know what you're saying. And you. You were undecided. At first, I always wanted to go into the sciences. And so I went to University of California, Irvine. And we actually went down to see the chair of the physics department between my junior and senior years in high school, when I always decided I wanted to major in physics. And that's what I did. What I wasn't as strong about was exactly what I wanted to do with it. But I thought I wanted to teach. And I thought that we can always use good teachers and the more I went to the university and went to a lot of classes, the more I realized we really do need good teachers because a lot of these people may know their subject very well, but teaching it is a different story. But then I had other things that that changed the career along the way, like I got offered an opportunity to work for the National Federation of the Blind and Ray Kurzweil, the futurist to have developed a machine that would read print out loud to blind people. It was his first first adventure in the world of optical character recognition. And he had developed the technology that really provided Omni font, OCR to the world. And he decided his first application would be to make a machine that would read print out loud. And that eventually led to me through circumstances going into sales. So I made sales a teaching kind of thing, because I realized that the best salespeople are really teachers. So even though it wasn't directly physics, I got to teach anyway. Rachel Serwetz 05:30Yeah, I love it. I mean, sometimes we were getting to know ourselves and what we think we want to do and what we think we like doing. But of course, there's opportunities that arise to me, it's a journey of, you know, yes, what comes your way. But you also want to be intentional with getting to know what you think you want to do and going to find those opportunities. But yes, I mean, things do arise. And we got to see like, Is this in line with what I want to be doing more of? And then of course, it's a yes or not, right. But, you know, with my clients, it's, you know, we're not just leaving it up to fully chance it's what do we want? And how do we go get it? But it's great that, you know, you were you were finding opportunities come to you? Of course, that's that's kind of ideal. But it's a combination, right, who finds you and how do you also go after what it is that you want? Yeah. Michael Hingson 06:18Oh, and I also know that if we really look at our lives, we can trace everything that led us to where we are by the choices that we make. And sometimes they're good choices, and sometimes they're not. And the question is, do we learn from the choices that we make all the way down the line? But still, it's about choice. And I understand what you're saying, you went into college sort of undecided? And that was probably unless you had just a definite thought that was probably a good idea. And I think you you said it very well, it makes a lot of sense to be willing to explore and think about what you want to do. Yeah. Rachel Serwetz 06:59Oh, exactly. Yeah, it's, yeah, I mean, any undergrad right there, they're younger, and they may not know yet. And so I like to help people really, how do you properly explore your career path, and hope that people can do that, but even by the time you have to choose a major, it might not be enough time. But using those college years wisely to really clarify your path is the best thing you can do. And, you know, you may or may not use your major, you know, later on in your career, but I think the issue I see is like when somebody chooses a major that's so specific, and so far away from what it is they actually want to do. So that's where like for me, you know, I chose something very broad. And that was great, because I could use it in a lot of ways. So that's the, you know, depending on the person, depending on the student, it's just something to think about, if you're choosing a very niche path, you know, make sure you really understand it. And you know, what it's all about? And what is that going to really look like when you go pursue that path. Michael Hingson 07:59What I didn't do was choose a specific branch of physics as such. But you know, even though I ended up going in a directions that didn't directly use physics, what I also realized, however, as I went through life, if you will, was I learned a lot that helped me, for example, one of the things that good physics teachers teach is you pay attention to the details, like if you're doing a calculation, it isn't enough to get the numbers right, you have to get the units to go with it. So for example, if you're trying to compute acceleration, and you don't come out with feet per second squared, or centimeters, or meters per second squared, even if you come out with the right number, you've done something wrong, it's the whole scenario. Again, it's very important to pay attention to all the details to make sure that you do what you really want to do. And paying attention to details became kind of a life mantra for being especially in and around the World Trade Center events. And what happened afterwards, paying attention to details is a very important message I'd love to talk to people about because that saved my life on September 11. I can trace that back to the desire that was developed in physics. Rachel Serwetz 09:18Yeah, no, I like that. It's true. My partner was chemical engineering. And I feel like he always talks about how it's like a way of thinking and a way of problem solving. And, you know, that is a niche major, but yes, you can definitely gain, you know, ways of thinking basically from that, but at the same time, you know, it is still choosing a pretty specific area. But yes, you can get those unintended benefits to from it. On the other hand, Michael Hingson 09:47later in life, I appreciated the TV show The Big Bang Theory, so I guess it counts for something. Yes, yeah. So when did you graduate from college Rachel Serwetz 09:58in 20 They're seen. Michael Hingson 10:02Okay. And so at that time, had you made some decisions about what you kind of wanted to do in the world? Rachel Serwetz 10:09Yeah, so I was really trying very hard to figure out what it is I wanted to do. I did a consulting internship, I did a lot of just other experiences and internships and projects on campus clubs. I was dabbling in, you know, HR, try, I did a lot of networking with alumni, I was just trying to learn about like, different things that were out there. And, and then, so Goldman came to Binghamton's campus, and they were recruiting for the operations department. And I honestly had never heard of operations. But when I learned about it, I was like, this really aligns with me, because it's all about processes and efficiency and things like that. So I really felt the lines, maybe that was lucky. And then, because I had done so much networking, I learned how to have a professional presence that I think stood out amongst other undergrads. So I ended up interviewing there. And I landed a role there, and I was there for three years. But once I landed there, you know, operations was aligned, but I was still working on essentially, like cash management, Treasury liquidity type functions. And I realized that I liked operational things, but I didn't love so much the financial services, you know, content of it. And so I was still, you know, I did so much effort to just figure out like, Okay, I like this, but I don't like that. And what should I keep doing to learn more about what it is that I like, and actually, at Goldman, I was very lucky to, you know, I got involved with projects really just by choice. So if I noticed an opportunity to, you know, people needed help to develop skills after their performance reviews. So I implemented a skill development program, or we needed help for onboarding globally across our department, or recruiting or, you know, there was just a lot of different people oriented projects that I got involved with, and I was interested in. And so lucky enough, I was able to do so much of that, while there. And that's what really led me to my next role, where I leaned more into like the people HR functions, I went to a hedge fund, and I was more on the recruiting and performance management side. And so yeah, by doing those sort of internal side projects, it helps me figure out like, what role was more aligned with my interests. I also did things outside of my job. So I was actually doing volunteering, career coaching through a nonprofit. Um, I did a lot of things just to try to do research, networking, experiential learning, in order to continue to figure out like, what work I wanted to do, basically. Michael Hingson 12:58Yeah. So you, you say to Goldman, you said for three years, and clearly, my observation would be you learned a lot, which is what it's all about, and maybe it wasn't what you expected? Or maybe it was, but you learned a lot. And you took a lot of knowledge and information and internalize that, that helped you move on from there. Rachel Serwetz 13:25Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mean, it definitely gave me a lot of room to learn and grow, for sure. I also had five months in India, when I was there. So just so many amazing experiences, they had this sort of other competition where you could get together with other analysts and suggest a nonprofit for the firm to support. So we were able to present to senior leaders, there were so many ways to get involved. I was involved with the Women's Network, like I just sort of took advantage of all, you know, not just my day to day job, but just getting involved with so many things that were interesting to me. So it definitely was valuable even in just those three years. Michael Hingson 14:05Yeah. So you left Goldman in 2016. And where did you go from there? Rachel Serwetz 14:10So then I went to Bridgewater, which is a hedge fund fund, right? Yeah. And I was in recruiting and performance management to support the investment associate. So sort of the front office, but now Michael Hingson 14:24you were in a little bit more of a people oriented kind of environment or position. Rachel Serwetz 14:29Yeah, yeah. I mean, you could sort of call it like HR, but we were our team sat within the front office. So there was actually a separate HR team, but we were doing those people functions like recruiting and performance management and training and culture and employee experience. That's kind of what our team was doing to support the investment department, let's say, Michael Hingson 14:51so did the knowledge that you gained even though you weren't a great fan of a lot of the financial aspects of it at Goldman did A lot of the information and knowledge that you gained at Goldman helped you in doing that job, though. Rachel Serwetz 15:08I think so I needed you know, I think when I went to Bridgewater, I felt like I was still having a fresh start. And I learned how they did things. I think the most important thing that I took from Goldman was like a learning about my interest in the people space. And then also, just, you know, the importance of operations. I was in the operations department. So I definitely took that away. But Bridgewater was very different, because they were very oriented on, like, people and feedback, whereas Goldman was very oriented on operations and process. So I sort of took different things from each place. And now I try to combine those very two things, but they operated very differently. So you know, I would like to think that I took one thing from one to the next. But truthfully, I think it was Bridgewater is a very interesting place. I, you know, I think anyone who joins has a little bit of a culture shock. So I would like to bring my skill set me up for success, but it was a very new and different environment. Sure. Michael Hingson 16:14Well, you also did no, of course, from Goldman, sort of, by definition, learn to talk a lot of a language which had to help. And so you knew what people were talking about when you heard a lot of these financial terms, even if you didn't directly use them. But it certainly had to help. And, again, it goes back to what I said earlier that when we make choices, we we learn from everything, or we should learn from everything that we do, and every choice that we make, and hopefully it builds, then it really does sound like it did sort of build for you going from Goldman to Bridgewater in some ways. Rachel Serwetz 16:50Yeah, for sure. Yeah. Different. But every experience sort of builds on the next like, I definitely learned and grew in in different, it stretched me in different ways. For sure. Well, Michael Hingson 17:01being in sales and sales management, which I did for a number of years, then going into public speaking. They're very different. But the reality is, that sales helped me learn to relate to people who I was speaking with, into learning how to read people. And sometimes, as I tell people, I could speak on any given day, to a board of directors down to it, people and so on, and learning to communicate with them. Definitely helped going into public speaking as well. So, again, there are things that you learn that that help you grow. Rachel Serwetz 17:43Definitely, absolutely, yeah, I mean, I think even my coaching and sort of sales element, now you learn so much about different people's personalities, how to talk to different people, just the variety of people. So yeah, the sales and the coaching. I feel like the stuff I do today sort of definitely taught me that to at Michael Hingson 18:02Goldman, or Bridgewater, especially at Goldman, did you ever go visit the trading floor? Rachel Serwetz 18:10Oh, no, that's a great question. Um, honestly, I don't know if I did. I mean, we went to so many different floors for different reasons. You know, there was I honestly have no Michael Hingson 18:29date. Well, the reason I asked is, you want to talk about crazy places, trading floors are as crazy as it gets. Rachel Serwetz 18:37Ya know, no, absolutely. And Michael Hingson 18:38yelling and the screaming and how Rachel Serwetz 18:42you remember from, you know, the movies and how it used to be so so. So hectic things like that. But I've definitely seen it even just from I remember, I was networking with a mentor of mine who was at a different bank, and she brought me to her office. So I've, you know, absolutely been exposed to things like that. But you know, I would say both Goldman and Bridgewater were, you know, in intense and that way that you sort of know, what to expect fast paced. And absolutely, you know, it was that experience Yeah. Michael Hingson 19:12Into intense is probably a good way to describe it. But they, the people who do it, and who do it well have have learned and are successful at doing it. So that's, that's okay, too. And, you know, there's, I don't think that most people are like, Michael Douglas and Wall Street, which is okay. But, but it is an intense environment. And it's, it's a fascinating thing to see. I remember, after September 11, we worked with Morgan Stanley, to get them back up and running and they had to go find a place to create a new trading floor since the one that the World Trade Center went away and they found a place in I think it was in Hoboken where they found a room that was literally the size of what they described as a football field, and within 36 hours, they got equipment from all of the people. They worked with PCs and stuff from IBM tape, magnetic tape systems from us and so on and other companies. And from Friday night till Sunday afternoon, they worked and they literally, were ready to go Monday morning, the 17th when Wall Street opened again, what a monumental task to be able to do that in 36 hours. Yeah, absolutely. Talk about intense. But that's the whole point of having data backed up. They were they were ready to go was just as if Tuesday never happened, because it shell shut down before the well, the World Trade Center attacks happened before Wall Street open. So that was probably a blessing. Oh, yeah. So how long were you at? How long? Were you at Bridgewater? Rachel Serwetz 21:05Oh, about a year? Yeah, it's, again, pretty intense, right? And yeah, I sort of was ready for the next thing. But yet again, didn't know what that next thing should be. So actually, I left and I was receiving career coaching. And I started noticing the gaps in what they were doing, were providing and I and I started having ideas as to how I could provide that. And that's when I said, All right, maybe I should lean into this coaching thing. So I did training through the NYU School of Professional Studies, they had a diploma program. And then I got certified through the International Coach Federation. And that's when I realized coaching is often conversational. So I started building out some tools. So at first, it just started with a career assessment and then more sort of platform like tools. And now we do have a web based platform. But I started to build it build out a essentially a shared workspace between the coach and the client. And just advancing and evolving and innovating tools that felt like it would enhance coaching from what I had experienced and what I felt like kind of was missing. You know, from my experience, and then I offered the same and started coaching individuals through a variety of different career processes. I started out I was doing coaching part time for a few organizations while also building my company. And then I went full time in my own company in the spring of 2021. The other kind of thing that happened in the mix, there was from summer 2018 to 2019. I did a one year full time tech MBA program at NYU Stern. So that's when I was actually starting the business while doing the degree. And that was great, because I leveraged all of this startup programs at NYU to help me understand how to start a business. So yeah, ever since that, it's been now almost six years of building out my coaching company. And Michael Hingson 23:11what's your company called? woken? So Woken is a company? Is it is do you have other people or just you? Rachel Serwetz 23:19Yes, we have a few other coaches right now. So that's kind of been the recent achievement is making sure that I can train and hire and scale and have other folks. So now they run the sales calls and bring new clients in. And I do still coach some individuals, but the goal is to grow and have me hopefully do more of the the innovation. So we always want to advance our digital products and make sure that we have newer advanced tools that really it takes the coaching to the next level. So that's hopefully where I can, you know, focus more of, and just bringing on more clients and coaches as we work out. Sounds Michael Hingson 24:00like a plan. So what is Woken stands for? So Rachel Serwetz 24:05you know, it actually is, I guess, more of just a play on words, I used to always say we are waking up people to take control over their careers. I think you know, people often they do take control over their careers, but sometimes, you know, they may not realize that they can or should find and seek support or coaching or resources or guidance. So we're here to remind people that you can and should find a job you love. And you know, our specialty is helping people to clarify their direction, because that was really where I lacked support. I spent years trying to figure out what I wanted to do. And now we help other people to do that more efficiently. So yeah, that's our specialty is just making it really practical to get confident on your best fit direction. We also help with making decisions around upskilling improving your personal branding, job searching networking interview doing promotions, you name it mindset, accountability, really any kind of career goal or challenge? We sort of copilot you through all of that. So Michael Hingson 25:08what is this? The whole concept of career path exploration? What What exactly does that mean? And how do you move forward with that? Rachel Serwetz 25:17Yes. So I try to define this actually, I mean, that's a phrase that I use. And the definition that I give is, it is a step by step process to learn and reflect, and you're learning about yourself. And you're also learning about career path options, until you can get confident to understand which path or direction makes the most sense for you to pursue. And that could just be more broadly your path. Or it could just mean, what's your next step, you always want to be confident to know where do you want to go? Before you start job searching? And that's the critical component is, ideally, this all happens before you start job searching in an ideal world. So that's yeah, that's kind of how I define what it is. Michael Hingson 26:01Yeah, in ideal world, but as you experienced yourself, you didn't really do probably nearly as much of that as you wish you had. When you were in college, did you? Yeah, Rachel Serwetz 26:14so that's exactly right. Like, I would look back, and I would reverse engineer like, alright, like, what would have been helpful for me to reflect on at each of these moments. And then I started coming up with frameworks. So for example, we have a career assessment is broken down into three parts. So it's something that I call function, content environment. So your function is like, what are you doing day to day your skills, your affinities? What are those sorts of activities you're doing that make up your week, and then the content is really the nature of the work? So what are those problems or topic areas that you find important or interesting. And the third is the environment that you thrive in. So for example, if you're in a role that you're doing sales, or research or data or consulting, or whatever your role is, you can do those things in virtually any single industry. And so I try to separate those two, which is the functional versus the sector of where you're really applying your skills and the ultimate goal and purpose. And then of course, the environment, what should it look and feel like and the people and the culture and the piece and all the bells and whistles, so I try to so that's exactly where I when I looked back at my path that was kind of like, okay, for example, at Goldman. I liked, you know, the functional role, but that industry didn't really align with me. Right. So so, you know, I tried to kind of break it up, like, what were the components of each experience? And how can I help somebody reflect on each of those core pieces? Michael Hingson 27:39So, one of the things that I find really interesting in talking about this whole issue of career path exploration is it certainly seems like it's something that people should do. One of the questions that pops into my head is, how much more of that? Could could colleges do or contribute to making people more successful by doing more of it? Rachel Serwetz 28:02Yeah, I mean, I think colleges can definitely do a lot more, I think, they don't always know how necessarily, right, so we do have some career assessments that are off the shelf. The other element is just getting the college students in the door, right. So we do have career services on campus. But, you know, on average is each student walking in once or twice in their college career, and oftentimes, they're getting resume help or interview help, right? So it's a combination of, we need students to be more engaged. And we need on the flip side, the career services to find ways to engage them or have, you know, for example, our software, we would hope in our future is that a career services office could actually use, you know, the tool that we have to maybe digitally connect a career services counselor with students, just through technology. So you know, of course, you know, Career Services has usually an informational portal or a website, but we want them to be able to really interact even more with their career services counselors, because it's one of the most important things people are questioning the value of college. And really, you know, if you're there to help you figure out your career path, we need to have the tools to make sure that students can do that. Michael Hingson 29:20Did colleges do more to maybe include internships or on the job exploration for people to be able to look at what they might want to do or not do or decide this doesn't work for me? Or is that is that really putting too much of a demand on college? Because of course, they're dealing with all the academic stuff. Well, Rachel Serwetz 29:43I mean, in an ideal world, like I picture College, where it should honestly be 50% internship or work experience and 50% in classroom experience, because you learn so much on the job these days. I also think it would help reduce the cost of college and it would help a student earn more I need from an earlier age, right? We have so many people talking about how some job postings and companies are not even requiring college degrees. So I think sort of an ideal future of college could be work and school all in one. So I agree, you know, definitely internships should be more prominent. But, you know, how many internships can you do? And so what are the odds that you're going to do an internship, and that's the career path you should be in. So the process that we guide people through is a more efficient way of learning more comprehensively and more dynamically. And more efficiently really, is the goal, right? Because you have a lot of options. And you have to learn about yourself really deeply. And you've got to compare the two. So that's what our process does, in average, two to three months, somebody can go through that journey. So internships are great. But it may not be the only way to figure things out. Michael Hingson 30:51I've talked to a few people on the podcast, and one I'm thinking of, that actually had a program where they worked with industry for high school students, and students would, would spend time working. And it was, it's a private school, and instead of paying the students because they were studying as high school students, the money went to the school. And that actually became one of the major sources of funding for the school. And what they found is that it greatly increased the percentage of students who graduated and then went on to college, which I thought was pretty fascinating. Rachel Serwetz 31:34Yeah, I've seen things like that, too. You know, helping high schoolers get that hands on experience getting exposure to certain pads. All of that is amazing. It just depends, like, sometimes I've seen it be industry specific. So if there's high schoolers getting involved to learn about one industry, right, is it you know, what are the odds like that they actually then say that the industry for me, you know, so these programs are great, but, you know, again, what we try to do is make sure it's holistic, and that it's really also self driven, so that each individual can explore as many options as they need, and narrow in on whatever it is. That's, that's right for them. So that's really, the idea is hopefully you start broad, and then you do narrow in, but you have the ability to learn about whatever it is you need to learn about based on you and your strengths and your interest. That's really what we hope to, you know, allow people to do. When Michael Hingson 32:28should people do career path exploration? When do you do it? Rachel Serwetz 32:33Yes. So the earlier the better, right? There's no sooner time, then. Michael Hingson 32:40That's what you'd say, of course. Um, Rachel Serwetz 32:42so, you know, look, I would say, anytime you're ready to make a change, if you're going to a job search, or even if you're looking to get promoted, you want to know where you want to go and feel good about that. And that way, the getting there is so much easier. So I would say anytime you're ready for a change or transition, whether it's your first job, your fifth job, or 10th job, any change, it warrants the time for you to explore and reflect and figure out what it is you want, before you pursue that change. I do think in college or high school, like somebody can pursue these same processes, it's a little harder when you're younger, but you can still absolutely go through it. And the benefit is, what we really want to avoid is just like you're picking something, you know, that's, you know, A to Z, you know, very different from what makes sense for you, we want you to get in the right ballpark, if you're younger. And that way you can more naturally evolve and organically find the next step that's within the realm of what you've already been doing. Right? It doesn't have to be exact or perfect right away. And then, you know, the same goes for later on in your career, you know, really, every time and anytime and in people change jobs, it could be every one or two or three years, that's fine, you can do it as often as you need to. And usually the first time you go through the process specifically, you get so much clarity, but once you do the process like two or three or four times, you actually that's really where you get very deep in terms of like okay, now I really know like my personal mission and that that sense of deep purpose and clarity in a bigger way. But you know, the first few times you do it, it's very practical like what is my next step? What it what makes sense for me in terms of the day to day of this job, right? What is most fitting and then you really get deeper like as you could tell I very much no my mission in life, right? So that's where we want people to get is understanding their true direction and then what capacity you go act on that could look a lot of ways in terms of types of roles or companies that you could go get involved with. But yeah, you should be doing it really, several times. I would say throughout your your career, you find that Michael Hingson 34:51there are more people are just that there are a lot of people who demonstrate dissatisfaction with careers isn't, so they just hop from job to job is happening more now than it used to do you think or because yeah, Rachel Serwetz 35:07job hopping used to be that common phrase. And then in the pandemic, it was the great resignation. And it was the great rethink. And there was all these phrases, to show that people were quitting, they were pivoting, they were ready for a change, they were seeking purpose they were seeking meaning, I think the pandemic really drove all of that a lot. And sort of exacerbated, it gave people opportunities to to upskill, if they were working from home, like there was a lot of change going on a lot of readiness for change. These days, you know, when you see a lot of layoffs, it's it can be a stressful time, and it just depends on the person, right? If you don't have a lot of runway, and you need to find a job quickly, you're gonna go after something that relates to your background, if you're ready for a change, and you have a little time on your side, you know, you see that people are really going through to do the rethink and see what change may make sense for them. But everyone's different. And you know, what chapter of your life are you in? What can you afford to do right now? A change, you know, depending on how big that changes may take time, and sometimes money to upskill. So, you know, everyone's different in terms of like, you know, what they're ready to take on. But yeah, definitely, yeah, I mean, statistically, a majority of professionals are in jobs that are misaligned with their personality, or are they're disengaged at work, according to Gallup's definition. So we see that it's pervasive. And then I think that the macro environment may affect, you know, how, and when somebody, you know, makes that a reality for them and, and what they do about it, no Michael Hingson 36:44matter what we say about the pandemic, it really seems to me that it opened up so many opportunities, if we would but think of it that way. You're, as you're pointing out, there were a lot of people who pivoted or who thought about pivoting and probably really did. And the fact is that, that people started realizing, I don't have to just have a job. There are other things that I'd rather be doing. Or if they really want me to work for them, then what are they going to do to make this a pleasant environment for me? Rachel Serwetz 37:20Oh, yeah, exactly. It's a give and take, and it's kind of an ongoing question of what's reasonable, what should I expect out of an employer? You know, all these all these questions are rising again. And, yeah, it's, it's interesting, because both, you know, you have new sort of desires for something better, but at the same time, people look at layoffs, and they're like, I should be grateful for sort of any job. So you see everything, you know, people want what they want. But at the same time, no company is perfect either. So you just have to be able to gauge is this job, you know, good as it relates to everything else that's out there. And sometimes people don't know how to compare, like, you know, am I in a good spot? Or am I in a toxic environment? So sometimes that's a lot of what I do is like, give perspective, having seen so many situations? And you know, what does that mean for that person? And are they ready to move on? Is there a way of making the situation better? Or, you know, maybe they don't realize how good they have it. So, you know, every single person is, is, is different. And, you know, I would say step one is just DJing. Where do you stand, right? How are things going? And what are the opportunities for you? Michael Hingson 38:30So often, I think we just haven't learned to analyze our environment and learned how to do more introspection, and really look at what's happening in our lives. We, we react more than we think. And, you know, we could pick on politicians, they're all about reacting and they don't see but that's another story. But the the fact is that we don't do nearly as much introspection, as we should, to help us decide what kind of moves we want to make. Because I'm a firm believer in the fact that in reality, if we really listen to what our mind is telling us, all too often, there's a lot of information that's absorbed that can pop out as good decisions. But we go it can't be that easy. Rachel Serwetz 39:19Oh, yeah. Oh, absolutely. I mean, I think at any given time, you know, can you be thoughtful? And can you get support for any one decision, but you know, we can't overthink it and there's any number of things that you only know in hindsight, how did it go and was this the right call or not? So you know, definitely. I always say like, what's the ratio of like, if this is such a big decision, give it due thought if it's something that you can easily undo or find another situation later on, like just go for it, you know, but yeah, get get another pair of eyes and ears so you can think through things but you want to be careful not to be overthinking either. Michael Hingson 39:59Well, But I'll you know, even even the simple decisions, it's good to think about them and analyze what we do and what we what we want to do. We just don't tend to think enough about it we, we react, or we just decide, Oh, this isn't good. And you're right, oftentimes, we don't know how good we really have it. And I think about that with the pandemic, I'm used to doing a lot of work remotely. I've been doing it for many years. So the lockdown didn't bother me. But I also know that there are so many people who were totally paralyzed by fear and are, as I put it, blinded by fear and not able to really move forward during the pandemic, when they were given an opportunity to step back and think about things. It was just oh, this horrible pandemic, I've got to be in front of people, I got to be with people. Zoom is just a horrible thing to use. Because I really need to be in front of people, rather than looking at all the options that became available to us. Rachel Serwetz 41:08Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, absolutely. I mean, it can be overwhelming. There's so many options, so many things available. And that's exactly where a coach can can help. Because part of what I do is just help people make sense of, there's so many options for me, right? How do I think through it? And I think the world gets ever more complex, new jobs, arising jobs going away new technologies, new skills, it's, it's harder and harder to make these decisions. So just getting support through it is really all you can do. Yeah, Michael Hingson 41:35well, and that's a participatory thing. So it isn't just all the coach, the person being coached has to be an integral part of it. And I think that most of us who at least understand coaching, realize that we can mostly only point the way someone has to do the work to to gain something from it. Rachel Serwetz 41:59Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, absolutely. And Michael Hingson 42:02so it gets it gets, it gets to be a real challenge sometimes, because people just get so locked into one way of thinking, but yeah, I love, I love all the opportunities that have come along. And as I said, even with the pandemic, it offers so many different alternatives, if we both think about them, and I think it's been a pretty good eye opener in a lot of ways. And I think it's taught companies that there is value in hybrid work that we don't need to necessarily report five days a week, eight, or nine or 10 hours a day, to the office, people can be very productive and a lot of jobs remotely, at least for part of the time. Personally, I would like to spend some time in a company environment. But that doesn't always happen. And as I said, I'm used to working remotely. And I've done it for a number of companies for a number of years. So I'm quite used to it. So working at home and now working with excessively, where they're eight 9000 miles away in Israel, although there's a sales office in New York, but the accessories Corporation is in Israel. And I'm used to working with them at all hours of the day and night. Thank you very much, depending on whenever they want to have a meeting. Rachel Serwetz 43:19Yeah, no, no, it's it's so true. I think the pandemic actually just created our ability to work remote. And I think that's a blessing because, you know, without it would have taken at least 10 more years, I think, for the workforce to figure it out. Like we can all work remote. So that was definitely the silver lining there. But yeah, I mean, how people operate, how teams operate across time zones, all of that is is changing. And, you know, there was definitely a hot moment where people were, you know, in interviews, how am I going to talk about my ability to work well, remotely, right. So it's definitely an important, but now, I think it's such a sort of almost standard for anyone to have to expect someone to be able to work at least partially remotely. So yeah, for sure. Michael Hingson 44:04Yeah, I know. For me, as a as a public speaker, I like to speak at live events, because there are things that I do miss. As a speaker, when I'm doing something remotely, I don't hear all the audience reactions, I don't get some of the information that I get, if I'm presenting live at the same time. I know mostly by audiences, what I can expect based on what I say and I, I always usually do make some remarks to evoke emotional responses during a talk, and I don't get to do that in virtual presentations as much I can make the remarks but I got to assume how people are behaving because I don't get that information. But I've done it long enough that I'm fairly confident about it. If there's any time doing events virtually also has its value to in terms of how many people can be involved in it. And it's easier for a lot of people to do that. And so I'm glad that we're learning the value of doing virtual work as well. Yeah, Rachel Serwetz 45:16I agree. I agree. It challenges new, new skills, but I think it brings new challenges therefore this, you know, to the in person versus virtual, yeah. Michael Hingson 45:27So it is this more of a hybrid world than it used to be? Well, what's the process for doing career path exploration? In your whole coaching process? What, how do you do it? What do you do? Exactly? Yeah. So Rachel Serwetz 45:40we start out with an assessment, very open ended, very reflective, it's, people say it's hard and all the best way, it takes a few hours. And then we narrow in on roles and industries that are relevant to somebody's affinities and reflections. And then we do a little bit of research. So we teach someone how to efficiently research those roles and industries, I think most people get mired down in the research. So we just want to get your feet wet just a little bit. And then we actually teach somebody how to network. So how do you find the right people? How do you reach out to those people get them to respond? And how do you effectively run an informational chat, so that you can deeply understand those roles and industries, then we sort of go into this like pivot process. So it's sort of like learn, synthesize, reflect and pivot week over week. And that really helps you to compare contrast, prioritize your options, and narrow in eventually on the best fit role in history and environment. Right, it's not to say that, you'll never be able to do the second third choice. But if there's differences between those roles and industries, you want to be able to prioritize, which is the best fit for you, at this moment in your career. And that's gets the goal. That's where we get in the end of the day. Michael Hingson 46:58How do you know when you're done, and you've completed the process? Yes, Rachel Serwetz 47:01um, it's interesting, because I think, you know, we go through life with the example of people around us who most people just don't have clear clarity. So we think it's normal to like, just never have those answers. But the end of the process is when you feel clear, if you're not yet clear, if you have more questions or concerns or hesitations, that means we either need more information or more reflection, or both. So you will get to a point of being informed enough to say, I know enough about this role. And I've related how that role relates to me to know that this makes sense for me right now. Right? So if there's any open questions, keep learning, keep reflecting. And you will get to that point of saying, I feel good and ready, I'm ready to go pursue this path, whatever it entails, right? And having learned what it means to go pursue that path. So yeah, that's kind of when you know that you're done. At least at that moment. Yeah. You Michael Hingson 47:59so you know, what, when, if you're the person being coached, when you feel you can actually take that step and go into whatever career you've been looking at with the coach? Exactly. Rachel Serwetz 48:11Yep. So yeah, I mean, as a coach, I'm listening for somebody to, you know, like, I've listened to see, are you really clear? I'll ask you like one to 10? How do you feel right? Or I'll listen to make sure somebody's like authentically, feeling excited and ready versus sometimes, you know, why are you saying that you want to pursue that, like, I want to make sure that you're really saying it for the right reasons. And that you're really informed and you're really ready, and you feel clear. And then from there, we'll make sure you know, the right upskilling opportunities, we'll update your branding materials, we will do job search all of the next steps from there. But yeah, we first need to make sure like, are you actually clear, right, and make sure you're ready for the next steps? Michael Hingson 48:58Have you had situations where somebody didn't succeed or resisted the process? And why was that? What What makes someone not successfully complete the process? Rachel Serwetz 49:10Yeah, it's a great question. Um, I would say, for the people who see it through to the end, there's always a good end result. Because there's only so many ways it can go there's only so many jobs that exist and you are you and you're limited to your strengths and weaknesses. And of course, you can grow in terms of your strengths as well, but what's your natural affinities? And so when you stick with the process, you know, for enough time and effort, you will always get to that end result. If something doesn't work, it's you know, people may give up. It does take a little effort and accountability and motivation. It does take time. You know, it's you know, people it's tough to do on top of a full time job. Um, that being said, you can try to make it easy like, put in 30 minutes a week. You can try to make it manageable for yourself. If you You feel committed to finding that goal and finding clarity like you absolutely can find it and should stick with it. But I think sometimes it you know, the energy and the time, or people question themselves and their capabilities, people get nervous and fearful and stressful, right? Or they question themselves, things like that your mindset can definitely get in the way. Um, but honestly, if you can stay on track with the efforts, and you have a coach to help you work through those mindsets, and you're open to getting support through it, you absolutely will get to that end result for sure. Michael Hingson 50:32So, overall, if people don't succeed, is it they're just putting blocks in the way they don't know what to do? They're resisting what you urge them to think about as a coach or what? Rachel Serwetz 50:51Yeah, I'm exactly I mean, let's see, like, if there's any sort of mindset blocks, right? It's just a matter of understanding. Where did that arise for you? Like, usually understanding the like, where did this mindset even begin in the first place? And how do we sort of unravel it? How do we overcome it? How do we alleviate that feeling and taking the time to work on your mindset. And really, as a coach, I'm here to listen, just to make sure those limiting beliefs aren't getting in your way. Because right you want your your decisions to be grounded in information, versus, you know, limiting yourself for something that may not need to be the case. So that's really what I'm here to do. But yeah, if you can be open minded, you can work through your own mindsets, get that support, and, you know, put those practical steps in place, you absolutely can successfully, you know, work through the process. Michael Hingson 51:45If you have one, I'd love to hear you without mentioning names. Just a real story of someone that that was a challenge, but ended up being a great success. Rachel Serwetz 51:54Yeah, one of my earliest clients, she was a teacher, and she really just didn't like the path. That was an understatement. And so we went through the process, she figured out, she wanted to be a project manager, we did, or she did the upskilling, you know, PMP certification, we updated all of her branding materials, and went through the job search, she landed a job as a project manager. And since then she has grown to be an agile scrum master. I had a different client who was a speech language pathologist and wanted to move on to something new and different. We went through the process, she realized she wanted to do UX design, did some training around that upskilling updated her materials. And she landed at Google, in a pretty, you know, formal, I think, like two year apprentice program to train you to be a designer. So those are just two examples of probably big career changers. But to be honest, people come to me and sometimes they need a small change. They just want to look at a new industry, or a new size company, or maybe a slight pivot in role. So you know, everyone's different, those are big examples. But you know, really, for anyone who's kind of like, what do I want, right? And we don't know the outcome, we don't know if it's gonna be a big or small change. But if somebody's in need of that clarity, that's really what the process is for, do Michael Hingson 53:16you find there are some people who come to you and they, they think they probably are in the right place already, but they're just not sure. And you, you go through this process, and they go, Oh, I was right, this is the right place for me. And that makes them happier and more satisfied on the job. Rachel Serwetz 53:35It is sometimes the case, there's usually like one of three areas of improvement. So either role, industry or environment, there's usually a reason they're coming to us if they want to seek some sort of growth, maybe they're not getting promoted, right? Or maybe they're not developing their skills, or, you know, it could be something like that. So we do just have to diagnose like, what are you seeking? What do you need more of? What are you craving? What are you missing? And it may not have to do with somebody's role it could have to do with a company in the environment, something like that. Right? So fulfillment, you know, can sort of be had in different ways. It could even be industry, right? Are you in a sector that you align with their mission? So we really just need to look at each component and see, you know, what, what you need help with, Michael Hingson 54:18it's still comes down to, you got to go through a process, you got to analyze it, you've got to think about it and make some decisions. And it's all about guiding people to make the decision that really will be best for them. And as you said, you don't know that at the outset. You You don't even know when you'll have that information. Sometimes it's just a breakthrough that suddenly comes to somebody who comes to you for coaching. Exactly, yeah. Which is kind of cool. So do you coach all over the world or where do you where do you get clients from? Rachel Serwetz 54:56Yeah, we have coached internationally I would say largely, it's the US or in Canada. But yeah, we've definitely helped people, Europe and Asia. It, you know, look, sometimes there's a country specific nuances as to their culture, or how do they job search and unique elements like that. But usually, people are aware of what are those nuances. And then they bring that to the conversation. So if there's something specific about you know, where you live, or how it works, we'll incorporate that into your strategy. But you know, usually it's more about what are you really needing help with and the fundamentals of the process? So for job search, are you meeting the right people? Are you getting your foot in the door? Do you know your strategic direction? Are you setting goals? You know, so we really look at the fundamentals of, you know, what are you? What do you need to be doing right? And where are you at? And how can we help? Michael Hingson 55:48So looking at it from a different point of view, do companies ever come to you and ask you to coach someone or help them with some of the people within their organizations? Yeah, Rachel Serwetz 55:59you know, we partner with organizations to do a lot of like events, trainings, webinars, workshops, things like that. We've even done a group coaching series over the course of a few months with a small group. So it just totally depends on you know, kind of what people need. Ironically, you know, we have people who are currently working, they come to find us on their own. So it's not even like their company came to us, but they wanted a coach and maybe their company wasn't providing it. So we're very much kind of like the direct to consumer model. But, you know, in the future, that is something we're gonna look for more of it's just partnering with organizations and providing help that way. Yeah, Michael Hingson 56:35I figured that mostly, it was a consumer oriented model. But I thought it would be interesting to explore the idea of, what about companies? Do they value what you do? And sounds like you're, you're seeing some of that? Yeah, absolutely. Which is, which is kind of cool. So have you written any books yet about your process? And the things that you do? Yes, Rachel Serwetz 56:55we actually sell that on our website. That was one of the first things I did. So let's see back in, I guess, 2018, one of the first things before I had any software or anything like that, I realized I had so many things I had been saying, for years. So I wrote it all down and 250 pages later. You know, that's, that's what we have. So it is a guide, it also comes with our process. So if you're doing the software, you can follow along with the book chapters and things like that. Well, Michael Hingson 57:27if if you? Because I don't think we got that if you'd send me like a picture of the book cover or something. I'd love to put that up to help promote what you're doing. Oh, yeah, absolutely. I will. Yes. Yeah. Well, I've got to say, this has been a lot of fun. And I, I've learned a lot, I really appreciate your time. If people want to reach out to you, and maybe learn more about what you do and so on. How do they do that? Rachel Serwetz 57:54Yeah, um, our website is I am woken.com. On LinkedIn, I'm Rachel Serwetz. And that's kind of one of my main places that I post a lot of content. Our website has a big Free Library of career resources. You can email us team at I am Oh, good, calm and Michael Hingson 58:12woken. By the way, it's w o k e n for those who want it. Oh, yeah. Rachel Serwetz 58:17Thank you. Yeah. Yeah. Um, so yeah, you can find I mean, we're also on every kind of social media site, so you can find us and, and reach out LinkedIn, DM, email, whatever it may be. And we would, we would love to be in touch. And we always offer a free initial call. So 20 minutes, and just tell us kind of how you're doing. And we will, of course, give you recommendations. So that's a great way to get started to go. Michael Hingson 58:39Cool. Well, Rachel, I really am grateful for you taking the time to to be here today. And we've been doing this now long enough that it's getting close to dinnertime there in New York. So got it got to deal with priorities, right? Rachel Serwetz 58:54Absolutely. Yeah. It's I try to keep that work life balance. Michael Hingson 58:58Yeah, you got to do that. Well, thank you for being here. And I want to thank you for listening out there. I hope you've enjoyed what Rachel had to say. Please reach out to her. And if you are looking to do something with your career, you can go no further than Rachel to find a great knowledgeable, I think very attentive listening person who can help so please reach out to Rachel and do that. I'd appreciate it. If you would let us know what you think about today. Feel free to email me at Michaelhi@accessibe.com. So that's m i c h a e l h i. At accessibe A c c e s s i b e.com Or go to our podcast page www dot Michael hingson.com/podcast. And Michael Hingson is m i c h a e l h i n g s o n.com/podcast. And wherever you're listening, please give us a five star rating. We value those very highly. And we do value your input and your comments. So please don't hesitate to leave them wherever you're listening to us. Sir watching us on YouTube. Love to get those comments. And again, Rachel, one last time. I really appreciate you being here and thank you for giving us a lot of insights today. Rachel Serwetz 1:00:08You are very welcome. We'll talk soon. We Michael Hingson 1:00:11will. So thank you. Michael Hingson 1:00:17You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com . AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

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Gustavo Rodriguez is all the episode title says. His family moved to La Puente California from Guatemala when he was just five years of age. As he tells me, his family wanted a better life especially for children. Gus says he had a normal childhood and eventually enrolled at the University of California at Riverside. He graduated with a business degree in 2019 and immediately went to work.

Today he serves as a team leader and feels he is well suited for the job. While he is young and has lots of experience years ahead of him, our conversation shows that he has knowledge that does go beyond his years. He credits this to the fact that he spent and still spends much time observing people and activities around him. He believes this comes in large part from his parents influence.

Gus and I talk a great deal about his leadership style and how he successfully serves as a team leader. He rightly points out that one of the most important aspects of what he does is to, as he puts it, “shut up and listen” to his team. He takes a personal and supporting interest in everyone on his team. He has been a leader of a team containing people younger than him up to people who he says could be his grandparents. Listening is one of the things that helps him relate to everyone.

I think Gus Rodriguez has good advice and observations for us all. I hope you agree as you listen to our conversation.

About the Guest:

Gus grew up in La Puente CA after his family moved here from Guatemala. Gus enjoys spending time with his dog Shadow whenever he is not at the gym or enjoying a drink with friends. Gus graduated from UCR in 2019 where he was also the president for LBSA ( Latino Business Student Association) for 2 years. His 4 year career so far has been spent in the roles of Operation supervisor, Sort manager, Inventory control manager and 2 Operation manager roles. Throughout his career and life, Gus continues to apply the principles of taking care of his people and trying to make their lives better.

In all his roles Gus has developed his team as he understands that it is not about him but rather it is all about the team. Gus contributes his success and his own development in each of his roles to the team that trusts him to lead them and get them where they need to be as well. A big difference in Gus as a leader than most leaders today is that he finds ways to ensure that his team doesn't feel like a number to him but rather a group of individuals making an impact bigger than themselves. The trust that he creates with his team starts with ensuring they are open about their mental health to him.

Gus knows what it's like to not be ok mentally but still have to work and carry on with his life. Gus is an advocate for mental health as he knows everyone goes through battles they may not speak of. Throughout college and his career he puts himself out there to let others also find their voice and feel more comfortable with not being ok. His goal is to continue to provide that comfortable environment for those around him so that they can also feel supported and be ready to take on whatever else life has for them.

Ways to connect with Gus:

Grodr025@gmail.comhttps://www.linkedin.com/in/gustavo-e-rodriguez-96ab5010a/

About the Host:Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.

Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children’s Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association’s 2012 Hero Dog Awards.

https://michaelhingson.comhttps://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/https://twitter.com/mhingsonhttps://www.youtube.com/user/mhingsonhttps://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/

accessiBe Linkshttps://accessibe.com/https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBehttps://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/

https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/

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Transcription Notes:

Michael Hingson 00:00Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us. Michael Hingson 01:20Welcome to unstoppable mindset. Thanks for being here and listening to us. Today we get to interview and chat with well I shouldn't say interview because I really feel these are conversations but we get to talk with Gustavo or Gus Rodriguez. And Gus has a has a really interesting this I think story to tell. He is not too far out of college. And I especially like the fact that he lives about 45 minutes to an hour south of me down the hill, as we say here in California and Riverside. And we'll we'll get into more of his story and all that sort of stuff later. But Gus, welcome to unstoppable mindset. We're really glad you're here. Gus Rodriguez 02:05Thank you so much for having me. Michael Hingson 02:09So here we are. November 1 is when we're recording this. Did you go out trick or treating last night Gus? Gus Rodriguez 02:15Actually not just stay Oh, Ma. That's not some candy. And then Scotch just enjoyed a drink. Yeah, Michael Hingson 02:21I stayed home too. I, we, there's a person who works with me, Josie and her family came over and trick or treated in our area, but one of the kids doesn't really like to go out. So he and I stayed and watched movies and a popcorn and candy and stuff like that. So we had a good time. Well, yeah, so anyway, I'm really glad you're here. So I know I'm looking at your bio. It said that you grew up in La Fuente. After coming here from Guatemala, when did you move here? How old were you when you moved from Guatemala? Oh, I Gus Rodriguez 02:58want to say I was about five years old when I say you have Michael Hingson 03:01a little bit of a memory of Guatemala. Yeah, Gus Rodriguez 03:04a little vague, but I gotta get him out. Michael Hingson 03:06So what what brought you to the US what brought the family here as opposed to staying down there? Gus Rodriguez 03:13Oh, just like many other parents, they just wanted a better education or thing for their kids. So you know, started off going to school. Last let elementary and middle school and then just kind of went from there. Michael Hingson 03:25Have you been back at all to visit Guatemala since moving up here? Gus Rodriguez 03:30No, not yet. I plan to one day. Take a little vacation over there. But for now, since you're in California. Michael Hingson 03:37Yeah. Well, you have some pretty good weather. You probably have warmer weather than we do up here in Victorville. Gus Rodriguez 03:44Right now it's about like the low 80s. I prefer it during the summer. So one thing I don't like about Riverside is the heat. Michael Hingson 03:52Well, we get that in the summer, too. We right now at 64 outside so yeah, definitely a little colder here. And then then down the hill, as they say, but we are on the high desert as it's called. So we are we're a little bit colder. Well, so tell me about growing up what it was like and that sort of stuff. Gus Rodriguez 04:16I mean, growing up just like many other other kids in there, your loved one thing you know, you're very heavy Latino culture. My parents did a good job of even though they didn't end up together, raising me my sister. So growing up was just kind of seen mature conversations early on and just kind of seeing where I fit in the world so to speak. I always tell people that. I believe I'm a I'm an old soul, my young body just because I've seen a lot of mature conversations and how to do a lot of mature things at early age. Usually because of finances or just seeing some similar things that my friends went through as well. Michael Hingson 05:00So it's a little bit tough from a financial standpoint. A lot of you're growing up. Uh huh. Yeah, just kind of what kind of conversations or what kind of things did you have to deal with? Gus Rodriguez 05:13Oh, go first back to my family and my parents at one point, you know, there are definitely issues such as like eviction possibilities and things like that. So kind of seeing that and, like, come upon it. But finally, on my first job, truly valuing the most simple dollar, the value of money, so to speak, understanding the work, it is so nice to get that. And that's kind of helped shaped a lot of even back in high school, my mindset of, you know, I don't want to go to college, where am I going to get this money from? So I definitely didn't sure I had good grades. I was involved heavily with extracurriculars, sports, anything I could do, organization on campus, that way I could stand out more, and then possibly get more scholarships, so I could go to college. And you know, thankfully, that's exactly how it worked out. Would you go to college? Oh, newly about three minutes more liberal now, at UC Riverside, UC Michael Hingson 06:11Riverside, my wife did her undergraduate work at UC Riverside a long time ago. So I'm sorry, I fell Highlander. Yeah. Yep. She was very involved back in the well, early 1970s and late 1960s in accessibility, and helped bring a lot of wheelchair access to the University of California at Riverside and had some, some challenges. And during the International Year of the disabled, she was involved from a local chapter standpoint. So she, she's very familiar with Riverside, I went to UC Irvine. So I was a little bit further down the road from you. Gus Rodriguez 06:55I guess. That's that. Michael Hingson 06:59Yeah. So when you went to UCR, what did you major in? Or what did you decide to major in? Gus Rodriguez 07:06Oh, so I was like, most people my age, I'm like, I don't know what I want to do exactly yet. But let's play it safe. I was like, I'm gonna go into business. I started his administration, just because businesses everywhere. So did that. And then the concentration was general management, just because I didn't want to limit myself to just marketing to just supply chain or finance, I wanted to be able to dip my feet to everything, so to speak. Michael Hingson 07:35So you just didn't want to be a specialist such pretty Gus Rodriguez 07:38much I like to be in a spot where I have options. Michael Hingson 07:43So how did that work out? Gus Rodriguez 07:46So far, so good, believe it or not, throughout the few jobs, I worked in college, and also, again, the classes I took, I began to realize more of what I wanted to do, so to speak, where, when a when environment I want to be in and a lot of that came from when it comes to customer service, you know, I my patient is good even it's like my direct team, but my patients only go so far. So I remember doing like for example, I've been working in supply chain or logistics after college, and all my teams really don't want to have to deal with for the most part. And when I say that, it's like I only got to worry about developing them, coaching them up making sure they're happy. I don't want to worry about anybody else. So those those jobs really my career and like I said those classes helped me realize that this is exactly more my cup of tea so to speak. Michael Hingson 08:38So you when did you graduate? I think what 2019 Was it? Yes, sir. Uh huh. So what did you do when you graduated? Thank Gus Rodriguez 08:49God I had a job lined up to be an operation supervisor for DHL supply chain pretty much like a week off after I graduated and then just straight into work. Michael Hingson 08:59So DHL the big shipping organization Gus Rodriguez 09:04Yes, it's one DHL supply chain is a third party they deal with a lot of customers. products so to speak. So a lot of people confuse DHL. DHL Express that's different Michael Hingson 09:17organization. Okay. Yeah, Gus Rodriguez 09:19they're not related. They're related to just different branches, Michael Hingson 09:23different Yeah, different branches, but it's all the same sort of large company. So what does it mean DHL supply chain and what you do and what you did. Gus Rodriguez 09:32So DHL, though, it was, I believe is an acronym for the founding brothers. I can't remember the names. I'm being honest. But I know it was. That's where the DHL came from. And then what I did as an operation supervisor was basically you have a team of between 20 Plus team members, getting them to help us get the work done, whether it's receiving, picking, putting away product or loading the product. in an efficient and safe manner. So we worked in a warehouse and we do that the customer Campbell's. So we had to deal with a lot of what Campbell Soup, any smaller companies that they bought like, V eight, Prego sauce and many more. Michael Hingson 10:17So as a as a supervisor in the process, so what did you do? And is it? Is it still what you do? What did what did you do? And do you do? Gus Rodriguez 10:28So my job is to make sure, well, the way I explained my job, because I didn't want to just follow like the standard stuff that I was who I should do, I like to go above and beyond. So my job was first and foremost, at the team was safe, whatever they did, because we worked with heavy, you know, 5000 pieces of equipment, making sure that they're happy. And if not happy, at least content, because as much as I want to make sure everyone's happy. I know, you can't make everybody happy. But they won't get along, they respect each other. I used to look at our performance metrics, whether it was individually by team member or as a team as a whole, and find ways to coach up team members, take away barriers, make sure they need the proper training, they got it, be able to explain the business, you know, top to bottom, so that we were possibly losing money. And at the same time, taking the feedback of team members like Hey, I think this process is better, and doing the deep dive to continuously improve processes. Michael Hingson 11:26So clearly, teamwork is a very important concept to you. Gus Rodriguez 11:29Yes, yeah, without teamwork, a lot of my success from Hobby Lobby here. Michael Hingson 11:35So what do you do specifically to create a team or build the team and keep the team kind of not only focused from a business standpoint, but also motivated to continue to do their work? Well, first Gus Rodriguez 11:51and foremost, at least with me, it starts with getting to know all my team members. Again, the operations manager was my first role right out of college. Since then I've done Inventory Control Manager, Operations Manager, multiple settings, store manager, area manager. And all those rules are fairly similar in the sense of again, making sure there's camaraderie. Big thing for me is as I get to know, team members, it's not just like a checkmark, like, okay, you know, I talk to you, that's it. It's like getting to know, little little things about themselves, whatever they feel comfortable sharing, what drives them, what motivates them, what they don't want to do long term short term, in the most simple thing of how to like to be recognized. And as team members prefer, like a public setting, private setting, just so that way, they're comfortable. And then as I follow up with many possible coaching conversations, or recognizing for achievements, you know, having those little plugins where I want every conversation to feel like they think their number, I want them to feel like they're valued their actual people. The other day, I know, they probably have 1000 plus things going on in life, things could be going wrong, and they still find a way to get together and come up with him. So Michael Hingson 13:02how do you get people to really value opening up and then coalescing, because teamwork is really hard? You know, one of the things that we talked about, at various times, and I talked about on the podcast is the whole concept of trust. And in our world today, we find so many people not overly open to trust, and they're not trusting, but the biggest thing is they're not open to trust. How do you deal with that and get people to to change? Because obviously, if you're going to have a good team, the members have to trust? 13:44Oh, well, a lot of it comes from development conversations where even when I had a team of 150 plus team members, again, I took the time to know every single one. And with those conversations, moreover, again, like it could be a simple follow up, it's like very next morning, instead of you know, saying, hey, you know, can you help me do this? They'll say good morning. I was last night. I know, you said you went to do so and so. And then from there. Other follow up conversation that goes back to again, the development, they're doing all the hard work realistically, in the sense of all the heavy lifting. The least I could do is like, Okay, this guy wants to be a lead supervisor, he was an inventory. I find ways to help develop them, set them up. So that way, they see that I do care, because though at the end of the day, you're part of my team. I care about you, I care for you to an extent so that we understand that I'm here to help you. It's not just oh, you know, there's always more people. There's always going to be report to me or if you're part of my team, I want you to know that I haven't back and then that goes back down to, again, kind of how you mentioned. Sometimes people are less willing to be trust, trusted or don't want to share as much and I picked up on body language over the years. That's a big thing for me. You know, someone could tell me one thing but their body says another I'm just being straight up with them as respectful as I can, of course saying, hey, like, I know you're saying this, but I can tell like you're not comfortable. Tell me what, you can pull out this conversation later. Or at least try this out. What can we hear and if you really don't like it's not for you, we can stop, but at least try it out. And then just overtime to begin to see like, I'm actually there to help or like, interesting to me. The here's the positive outcome that came out of it. So that way, it's not just me saying things to tickle the ears. It's also like, you know, I'm following up, I'm being consistent. If you need something, hey, can you look into this for me? Sure. Because I have so many people asking that I write things down from them. And the other day, I looked at my sticky notes, am I right? Did I do this? Do that? Let me get back to so and so. So that way, they see that they're doing all this? All these things? For me? The least I could do is have this follow up and just be as consistent as I can. Yeah. How did you Michael Hingson 15:51learn all that? I mean, I would say you've not been in the workforce very long. And that's okay. But the bottom line is that you clearly have learned a lot as you have been in the workforce. And probably I would think some of that has come from earlier kinds of things as well. How did you how did you pick up all those concepts and start to put them to use? Oh, that's Gus Rodriguez 16:15a mixture of things. So even going back to, there was a summer I spent with my dad when I was much younger, and he was a supervisor. And I would just pick up on things that you that, you know, he would tell me like, you know, here's what made me successful, or even if he didn't say, I could visually see things again, like the follow ups, checking in with his people, even though it's like, Hey, can you get this done? You know, while on the way he will say hey, by the way, you know how the kids know things like that, that starts to pick up. And even when I used to be a picker, working as a, as a temporary team member in a warehouse when I was in college, talking to fellow team members, you know, what they liked or disliked about their supervisors managers even experienced it firsthand where I had a supervisor that didn't even say good morning, they like, remember my name is point say, Hey, can you do this? And lo things about where I would pick them up? Like, you know what, if I'm ever in that position, that's something I definitely want to do. Or in the most simple thing of when I was back in college, you know, BSA business organization, and I was the president, little things again, where I would assign my fellow board members tasks, but I would follow up, because I want them to feel supported, I wouldn't give someone a task, if I didn't feel confident that I could do it myself or find the resource to get it done. So little things like that over time, and then obviously been in the workforce situations are very similar, but that little details, that little detail that makes a different kind of key mental notes. So that way, it happens again, it's like a trigger and okay, and react to that, so to speak. Michael Hingson 17:51So when you've got a team member who's maybe not necessarily contributing, like they should, or maybe that you think should be contributing, and they're not, what do you do about that? Oh, Gus Rodriguez 18:01well, first and foremost, it starts with simple conversation of what's going on. But at the same time I, I bounced that conversation with, how can I help you, because I like to give the benefit of the doubt, nine times out of 10, where I believe people don't wake up and say, I'm gonna start today work, or I'm not gonna do anything in the benefit of a doubt, like they come in, Hey, I see that you're not being as productive. What barriers are you facing? What can I do to help? Is everything okay? And no, things like that. We're just gonna have that simple conversation. And sometimes they brush it off at first, like, oh, you know, fine, everything's good. Now, I'll pick it up. Later, I'll tell you what, follow up later, just to make sure that you do look at the follow up happens, they're either about the same performance or just a slightly better, again, just that follow up where I've had team members open up in the past that, hey, I got this actually going on in my life, you know, divorce issues, the kids, etc. And just taking the time to get on time, listen, because, as I mentioned before, so much goes on in everyone's lives that people often forget that, you know, other people are going through things too. And I think that's also what contributes to my success early on is recognizing that at the end of day, yes, there's a job to do. But I'm working with people. I'm leaving people hanging, understand that I need to have empathy and sympathy at the same time. So even if I don't have kids at the moment, but if someone tells me that they should have kids, or, again, the list goes on, if I haven't experienced that listing, then I'm saying, Hey, I haven't gone through that. I appreciate you open up and tell me about that. But I think these suits my hope, or I'll tell you what, I'm gonna follow up later. I want to make sure that I'm doing everything in my hands or my power to make sure you're heard that you're valued. And then again, those things usually help pick it up. Or sometimes they're not as receptive and they still you know, they're very closed off with those. I'm gonna start from my open door policy. But I still fall to the part of my job where I go to retraining work instructions, etc, making sure that do an observation so that way they know even if they don't want to open up or they don't want to see what's going on, I'm still there to follow through the process to ensure that at least everything by the standard is being done correctly. Michael Hingson 20:18Yeah. Well, and that's, that's kind of important. It's a matter of understanding all the way around. And as the leader, and I think there is a big difference between being a leader and being a boss. So that's why I put it that way. But as the leader, you are the person who is needing to coalesce the team? Well, how would you define the difference between say, a leader and a boss, a Gus Rodriguez 20:45boss takes credit points, the fingers just tells people what to do and gets mad when results are out there. A leader takes the time to develop this people, listen to his people, lead by example, get his hands dirty, making sure that everyone understands and respects and as well as just overall making sure that when the results are not their leaders, reflecting on what he could have done better to not just be with one person specifically MSW. Okay, what could I have done to help that scenario? Michael Hingson 21:15Yeah, one of the things that I've always felt when I've been tasked with leading teams is I say to my colleagues on the team, I'm not here to boss you around your knee, the assumption is, you know what you're doing. On the other hand, my job is to add value to what you do. So we need to figure out with each individual, how do I add value to you. And I think that's really important. Because if you're able to, to enhance and add value, you're gonna make everyone obviously more successful, which makes you successful as well. But it's about adding value. And I think that's really pretty important to really be able to make that happen. So, you, you, you learn to somewhat connect fairly early on in life, didn't you were doing that by being a good observer. And I think that's probably the best way to describe it, you observe, and all the things that you did, and you chose to put it into practice, didn't you? Which is always a really helpful thing. So what's the really hard part for you in terms of connecting with others? Gus Rodriguez 22:33I think the hard part is, again, as a leader, as a person, I believe people should know, their leadership style, and not just leadership style, but even just what they're like, you know, when I just like, What do I like in terms of my crowd of people. So I, for example, I tell people all the time, I'm an omni vert extrovert introvert, I love my longtime I, you know, my small crowd of friends that I like to spend time with, I really honestly like to spend time with people that I enjoy with, you know, I don't have time for wasting, wasting time, so to speak. So understanding that, and then, when I come across a brand new team member or situation where it's the most to me, like the total opposite of me, well, this person is the opposite of me, and drains my social battery very quickly. And the hard part is, you know, maybe it's a long day for everyone, maybe mentally, I'm just right there, like my borderline. So just trying to bring together you know, to have the interaction so that way, even when those long and tough days, I get being consistent as possible with having a simple interaction. What do you think about it might not be that simple. But again, my interactions taking place. And then, at the end of the day, all my team members can say, even if they don't like my leadership style, or they're like me, specifically, they respected because again, consistency was there. And they see that I was feeling terribly across the board, I tried to help every across the board. And the other thing, too, is not just with necessarily that personality, so to speak. But certain key factors, of course, like when I first started, it was a little harder to connect with the older crowd, so to speak, because I was fresh out of college. Some of my team members could have been my parents could have been my grandparents. And it comes down to finding that in that respect, without demanding it. So I think that's the issue that a lot of younger leaders or new leaders face is they demand respect, but they have shown little too early. So again, taking the time to find common common things to talk about. And even though there's nothing finding ways to still see what they like, and go on from there. Because I guarantee at least there's one thing that can always be discussed that you have that little small connection with that other team member and then you can you get to build that rapport with them. So eventually, they respect you, but it wasn't enforced. It was also very transparent across the board. Michael Hingson 24:59Yeah, bye bosses demand respect rather than commanding respect by what they do, which is I think, again, that's another maybe way to distinguish between the two do you have? You talked about two things I'm gonna ask you about both of those. You talked about it with some people, it's easy to train your social battery. And I can appreciate that. How do you deal with that? What do you do? Gus Rodriguez 25:20Oh, man, work setting, private setting, they're all very different. But we're talking about the work setting it when it comes down to before and after, as I call it, I had just talked with a fella, one of my friends the other day, too, when you're a leader of people, or even in my other roles, leader of leaders, you need time to walk away from the business not talking about like a whole day necessarily, but you know, like 510 15 minutes, whatever it may be to yourself, recharge, do something you enjoy, listen to a song, maybe lunch, maybe get a quick snack, just closed a laptop, step away, and being able to find that little piece in the middle of the day. So being able to do that before and after, especially most when you know, you go into one more that's going to drain you really quickly, being able to recharge because it's not fair, or the way I see it. It's not fair to both parties. It's not fair to myself, that I'm not taking care of myself. But it's also not fair to my other team members, my other people that report to me if I'm not in the best, or in one of the best conditions to take care of them, if that makes sense. Michael Hingson 26:26Yeah, well, and I think that does make a lot of sense. It's all about the fact that you have to be on your game. And no matter what others might say, it's your own internal pressure that requires you to be on your game as much as anything. So the very fact that you address that issue and recognize that issue is pretty important to be able to go into situations that can be very draining, you do prepare, and it's all about preparation, which makes a lot of sense. Yeah, and the other question that comes to mind is you mentioned that you've had situations where you as a young person, almost out of college, and were, were tasked with leading teams that had people who were significantly older, as you said, it could be your parents or your grandparents. Do you have a story of how you turned one of those around and made it work? Gus Rodriguez 27:26Oh, yes, I do, actually. So even going into like previous things we're discussing, a lot of it comes from, which I'm sure we're discussing today is the mental health, mental health portion. So one way that I was able to turn around was, again, very connectivity, and interacting with all my team members on a one on one basis, getting to know them. But this specific respect, I won't say the name, but I don't Michael Hingson 27:46know what I remember, I don't need that domain names. Gus Rodriguez 27:51Having conversation with him. And everyone was always telling me like prior to like, you know, he's always been a hot, he's always been kind of to himself. And I'm just like, to take that time to see why he's like that. So as I was conversations, besides the simple introduction, you know, Hello, my name is Simon. So I'd be your new supervisor, etc, etc. Just finding down and just being as blunt but as respectful as I, because I like it's like a bad way to get out of the way. And just straight up, say, Hey, man, I noticed that you literally, you're in unpleasant mode. And the reason why I'm following up is to make sure that you're okay. If you're comfortable sharing what's going on with you can be a big mental health advocate, it can be the most simple thing that maybe is recent, or some has been around for a while. Here, you're talking about it, you're not inclined to but just know you have the option in case someone has ever offered that to you. And you don't want talk to me, I can provide resources, I can point you in HR, that they can spread resources that maybe they connect to you as well, that will make you feel more comfortable. And it was like a little pause. And he he said some of the you're the first one to actually ask me anything around that realm. And who knows how long. So what what in my office at the time, and you know, told me, everything was going on with him. We spent I guess, almost 3540 minutes. And the whole time, I was actively listening, making mental notes. And to make sure that he was heard. And we were done. I thanked him and said I appreciate that you were comfortable and open up to explain everything going on with you and why you were in an unpleasant mood or why he was been that way. And he ticked him off spec me for you to actually listen. And I would always have my follow ups with him as well. Okay, you know, just one follow up. I was going with this. Some days are good. Some days not so good. But I'm teaching other people my my better workers. If I needed something, the most simple thing I could be like, Hey, can you get this done? When you're done? I'll follow up with us. We'll make sure that everything back home is still doing okay. You said yes sir. Whatever you need You know, as attention will take care of it. And Tuesday No, I don't talk to him anymore because I'm no longer at that facility. But I hope he's doing well. Tom about Michael Hingson 30:08communications, isn't it? Nine Gus Rodriguez 30:11times out said, yeah, yeah, Michael Hingson 30:13people just don't work at communicating. And and it's scary in our world in general today, we, we have gotten to a point where it is so very hard to have any kind of conversations with people, people just don't want to converse. And I realized that there are subjects that can be sensitive, you know, like politics is a perfect example, that we have gotten to the point where no one can have discussions about it. My opinion is right, yours is wrong. And that's all there is to it. And we, we don't, we don't communicate, we have lost the art of conversation. Gus Rodriguez 30:49I agree. How do we fix that? Oh, man, I can't speak for everybody like, but for me, like me and my friends. Because I have some friends that have different, like, for example, political views, religious views. I don't like to put down anybody and say, like, You're wrong, I'm right. To me, it's just like, look, it's your opinion, it's valid, because it's yours. As long as it's not bring anybody down, by all means, you know, listen to it. I might, I won't debate unnecessarily, as long as you don't come from mine either. Or, like if you actually listen and understand why I have my point of view, and I will do my best to do for yours as well. Michael Hingson 31:29And that's really the issue, it shouldn't be debated should be discussed if you're going to do it. And that's that's the big problem that people think you have to debate and my ways the right way and your way isn't the right way. And we don't get anywhere when we do that. The reality is that when we really sit down and listen, and have meaningful discussions, we may or may not change someone else's opinion. But at least we hopefully communicate to the point where they at least have some respect for someone else's opinion other than their own. Which is, of course, the big problem. All too often, that just doesn't really go that way. Gus Rodriguez 32:17So, unfortunately, yeah. Michael Hingson 32:19So you, you clearly look out for others, who are what helped you really get into that mindset. And I think that's a good way of expressing it. That it is a mindset that you look out for others and you help others. Gus Rodriguez 32:31Oh, first of all, most of my parents, like, I'll start with my dad, again, going back to spending that summer with him. Just you know, he took care of his people, they need something he was basically like, Okay, I'll get there as soon as I can. And he would. And then I would just again, observing how, how easily they followed him, because he was their boss. But because of those little things that I could tell his team, I was actually happy to be working for him. Another one is my mother. Growing up with a lot of things we went through, I could tell that some days, my mom would just appreciate somebody besides like a myself heard her out, things that she was going through. And that made me again, put myself in the shoes of, you know, my rabbits team and report to me, if their mothers fathers, whatever the case may be, again, they're going through real life situations. And again, just hearing our providing an ear and possible solutions would go such a long way. But then there was also this went back to when I was a banker as a temp. Finishing my last year of college before I became a supervisor, I started off again, brand new, didn't know anybody. No one really talked to me besides people that worked near me. Supervisor named a good morning just like get to work. But there was this one guy and to get under respect, I won't say his name. But he older gentleman, he was the only one that actually went out of his way to Good Morning. How are you doing? I see you're new here. Give me any help, please let me know. I'll be over here. And it wasn't just that one time again. He continued to follow up. He didn't have to do this. But the fact that you did, it made me feel really good that knowing that you know, somebody noticed, I'm not just getting like another number, just another nobody. And even the days that I missed because you know at classes or things wildlife. The next thing I did show up to work, he's a MC yesterday. Again, the fact that somebody notices, those are the things that really stuck with me and it made me realize like he's not even like the supervisor or the boss, but that's something that would want from my supervisor, boss. So those are things I started to pick up on and he's no longer with us at rest in peace. But the fact that he took the time is what I'm trying to say and that's something that whether it was supervisor me is a one of my many manager roles with game that it's my team members. It's the supervisor reportedly just taking the time to pull him to the side and say, Hey, work aside all all this BS that we can deal with to the side, what's going on? Anything? How's your mental health? And those are the things that just this little simple check in was, that went a long way not just myself, but went a long way for other people that came along for the ride. Michael Hingson 35:25So you did a lot of work in Business and Business Administration so on, do you think that college helped really prepare you for the kinds of things you're doing now, when you're talking about teamwork and all those sorts of things? And not the theory behind what you do? But real preparation and building teams? And, and the kinds of things that we've been talking about for gosh, now over a half hour? did? Did college help really prepare you for that? Or did that really come from other kinds of environmental issues? Gus Rodriguez 35:58It's a mixture, you know, I'm a big fan of the education system if Oh, yeah, absolutely. Yeah. But at the same time, I think it comes down to obviously, whatever your your major your field is, like, for example, you've been in business is not just going to classes, because that's the textbook only teach you so much, right? The textbook might be outdated with math might be there, you're doing finance, that's pretty much gonna always be the same, right. But like, in my case, when I'm dealing with when I'm dealing, but I'm working with people, my people were really helped bring that together was join organizations in college where you have to work together, where you become like an officer, like, for example, again, Latino Business Student Association, there'll be a say, I started as a general member, my freshman year, and throughout the years made my way to be the president, being in that role was so crucial for my leadership development early on, because, again, I was able to apply, as you mentioned, observe and apply previous experiences that I already had, and seeing them how they play out with my peers, so to speak. So people move closer to my age, and then being able to get into the workforce and apply it but then adjust or tweak little portions because now it's no longer people. My age now, it's very different. It's more diverse. It's very different work that has to get done, so to speak. But still, again, the education system that your job when it came down to, since I was general management, I had my head and everything had given me insight to it. But then also getting involved with organizations on campus was the cherry on top, so to speak. Michael Hingson 37:38If you could change something in the whole education system, and when what you learned or what you did learn, what would you change? From a college standpoint, a curriculum standpoint, Gus Rodriguez 37:50oh, probably more like towards the first two years just because like, it wasn't really towards the last two years that I got to focus more on what I wanted to do. So like the first two years was kind of like when I had like, extra electives that I really like, Okay, I've got these classes that I enjoy taking, okay, now I got these other two, you know, what I want to take with like what's left? That's not already like taken up by the the higher up, juniors and seniors so to speak. So being able to just have a little more control in the sense of, this is truly what I want to do. Let me expand my horizons in this area, compared to now it's like, oh, well, I guess I'll take oceanography because I have this free elective that any credits, but it's like everything else I want to do is is taken up? Michael Hingson 38:31Well, how would you change the whole curriculum to make it more practical? Or would you Gus Rodriguez 38:41not the whole critical village has changed in the part, were truly just taking the classes that were going to benefit you the most, because again, you know, full respect to you to UCR, who respect to the professor, everything, oceanography, I went to that's like one example. I only took that because, again, I had an elective, I need the credits to graduate and also, everything else is taken up. But we're kind of forced to take that class. So now, if I could just change that and actually take a class that would have been more beneficial. Again, maybe like people organization skills, or you know, as it became a manager, and now looking back, like a lot more of the debit and credit, the finance portions, things like that, that would actually benefit more in the long term. Michael Hingson 39:25Do you plan on going back to school and doing any more studies going for more advanced degree? Gus Rodriguez 39:31Oh, the NBA is always in the back of my mind, but uh, it's expensive. So with all the companies I've worked for, they all do provide tuition reimbursement to an extent, but it's also trying to find the time right now. As mentioned earlier, on being on time, you know, it's not just the trade off of the money but also the trade off of on my days off, do I really want to be spending more time even though it's an investment in me that we want Spend time taken away from you enjoying the little thing is relaxing. So it's always like a back and forth where maybe maybe who knows? I'll go, I'll go back. But if not, you know, I'm not gonna I like to say my experience for itself speaks so far for getting to those higher positions that I can go for. Michael Hingson 40:17Do you do much reading about different subjects relating to what you do management theory team building and any of that sort of stuff? Do you? Do you still study that in some way? Yeah, I Gus Rodriguez 40:31read a couple books here and there. A lot of my previous jobs, and even though I'm one of them, I provide books on leadership, like, actually, I'm on this on my phone, but it's been balanced by a book right now, the question behind the question. So basically, you know, what, to really ask yourself, to eliminate victim thinking, complaining and procrastination. So little things like that, that I follow up with just so that way. It's not just for myself, but then how can I get that concept and possibly use it on a team member that might need it one day, one of my leads, one of my supervisors, etc. Michael Hingson 41:05You've talked about mental health in various ways, and during our time, and and when we talked before, what prompts your great interest in the whole idea of mental health? Oh, Gus Rodriguez 41:17I mean, like many other, I won't even say meters, this point, people. I've had my fair share of struggles with mental health, stepping back from college, and not necessarily from the stress college, but just life in general, you know, so, you know, things like that, that, you know, there was times when I wasn't in the best headspace didn't want to be closed off, just getting just a lot, a lot of like, 1000s of things going through my head. And just being able to, thankfully, now I'm in a much better, better headspace. But getting the help that I needed. And that goes into kind of what we've been talking about, as I get to know, my, my people, so to speak, letting them know that yes, you know, we got a job to do, we got things to take care of, it's a business, but I want to make sure I'm also taking care of you. If you're in a good mental health space right now. Great, fantastic. And I'm here to discuss it, you know, I know, maybe my had been a little different compared to the mental health issue they're going through, but at least I know what it's like to, to not be okay. And just remember, that's fine, too. But it's a matter of speaking, okay, in the hope, and ensuring that they always have an outlet for it. So Michael Hingson 42:31a lot of your mental health discussions are really arranged around stress. Gus Rodriguez 42:39I mean, stress of the things, it's, it's funny, it's like the things that I can't handle. And then once I do, it's a great, that's gone. But it's also like the things that are out of my control to where, like many people I'm sure, like, you know, involves us, we try to kind of like, forget about it, because like, look, it's out of my hands, how much I can do, it is what it is, but at the same time, it's always lingering there, you know. So being able to, again, you know, make sure I'm still okay, taking the time, I need to make sure I can take care of others as well. But being able to find ways to limit that, that stress that lingers in the back of somebody's mind. Michael Hingson 43:13So what would you advise to someone who's maybe going through some sort of stress or mental health issue? And and that's a such a general question, because there's so many different kinds of mental health issues. But what what kind of advice would you give to someone or maybe someone who's listening who may be having a hard time with something? Gus Rodriguez 43:36Easier said than done, but definitely figuring out two things. First one, maybe what, what triggers the most most of it, or what's the main thing that you're thinking of, and again, divide it to kind of what I said, which control you can control, and the other just gain an outlet. Again, if it's my team at some time, if you're comfortable, romantic at the time, you want to speak to me about it, I can have that conversation you about it, or the most simple thing is I can just shut up and listen, sometimes it's what's the one month just for someone to know what's going on, to let them know that, you know, the world might not come crashing down right away, but at least someone heard him out. And then the other thing is ultimately, when you gain that lesson mentioned, or to gain help is once you figured out what it is, again, whether it's a friend or family member, even just therapy, ensuring that someone is there for you. Because a lot of times I feel we have that mindset of it is what it is which you know, I'm guilty of it too. And we just kind of like let things ride out, things build up and eventually it comes out very nasty, or it continues to get built up and then you know, you're in a much worse state than you would have ever been able to just talk to somebody about it. Michael Hingson 44:48You know, you said something that really is so important. It more often than not makes perfect sense to as you put it shut up and listen. We spent so much time Talking, and not listening and observing. And I love the fact that you are very much an observer. And you're willing to listen, because a lot of times, really not a lot, you can say, it really is going to be best if somebody can just talk something through. I've talked to a lot of people who are coaches and talk to some people who are therapists. And of course, what, what, what most people would say is that it's all about self discovery, or it very well can be that you have to figure out what is really bothering you. And good listeners can ask questions. But we really have to figure out most things for ourselves. And all we can do is be guided down the right path. Yep. Gus Rodriguez 45:48I'm big believer that, again, I don't have all the answers. Even if I tell you, like, you know, let me get the right resources. But sometimes the most simple thing with working with others is just being an active listener, or just like being an active listener, but being able to understand that the situation that someone's providing, or speaking to you about is something that you've never gone through, or you know, God will never go through. But the fact that you can be sympathetic and empathetic, relate as much as possible, at the same time, be as quiet as possible, so that when they just have their moment to be as vulnerable as they can with you. It's such a such a huge thing that not many people I feel, see the value and until they've gone through it, or they see someone else go through it. Michael Hingson 46:38Have you ever had any examples where what you do as a team leader, and and an observer hasn't worked, and that something just didn't work out in terms of dealing with someone. Gus Rodriguez 46:54One of my roles, I would probably say there was like a, because what I observe is not just people's actions by body language, or what they do. But it's also like, Gus Rodriguez 47:06when they say certain things, I think about certain cues that the body does, again, kind of makes your body language too. But there was one time called a teammate with my office. It's okay to let out whatever was going on. They were just, for a moment just quiet, trying to try and get the words because sometimes, and I've gone through this where it's it's hard to put into words, right? And it's a little hard for me to listen or help if they themselves can explain it. So in that situation, that sounds like look, I understand. So I'm not forcing you, I'm not expecting you to be able to put in words, either. It's like that sometimes. And get just a moment of silence where, at least for myself, I don't judge, I don't question it. To me, it's like, you know, maybe this moment of silence, still them just trying to get everything together in there. And then ultimately, I cannot directly right away. But what I was able to do, I was like, Look, I kind of put you on the spot by asking that. So I apologize, that's only, but at the same time, I also don't want you to beat yourself up for not being able to explain how you feel because that's valid. Sometimes you can't, sometimes it's it's a mixture of so many things that we just don't do it justice, right. So I was able to at least partner them with HR and they get to go to therapy. And unfortunately, at least with me, they they stop working after like a month after just because they need to take care of themselves and do what they had to do. But at least for me, it was it was a winning loss. It was a it was one because I would love to keep them on to let them know that you're there. And I would have been nice or to feel that I could have done more. But it's also a loss because again, I didn't I can only do so much. And that goes back to being sympathetic, empathetic. Knowing where your where your life is. Also, don't worry, like, as much as I would love to, here's where I can't. So I haven't heard from them ever again. I hope they're doing well. That's what they do look back on and I'm just like, little guilty, but at the same time, it's like, again, it's only so much I could do you know, because I wish it was it would be more but sometimes it's just out of out of my expertise, so to speak. Michael Hingson 49:15Well, you know, and you can't teach people things and they really have to teach themselves all you can do is guide the way and there's only so much you can do. Yeah. So do you spend much time like at the end of the day or at the beginning of the day doing any kind of self analysis or introspection? What worked yesterday or earlier today? What didn't work? Even something that worked what could I do to improve it or what could I do to have addressed the situation differently? You know, may come pretty natural to you but do you do you do much self analysis? Gus Rodriguez 49:53Oh every day. I love my positions are the ones I worked in. ask the President now just because I know I tell people I know when I won, and I know when I lost, so to speak that day. And when I say that, it's like I can kind of like you mentioned, go back and say, Hey, this didn't work. What could I have done? What? At what point in the day should I have done this or being able to kind of, it's like a, like a, like a football game or basketball? Look at the highlights. Okay, this was good. This is good. Okay, who's where this went wrong? What could I have done there? So being able to replay that in my head, but also what I took the what's on his head in that short term memory, we're like, Okay, once you know, I figured it out. It's done. Days, done, stop linger on it. Because I can change anything we look at tomorrow. Remember what I'm gonna do, or what's gonna be done different. But in terms of the failure, so to speak, now, it's like, forget it, it's a new day, all you can do is get better, right? So, you know, the day I do that, in comparison to a previous state, what I went wrong, what went good. And even the days where everything, let's say, you know, market already went perfectly smooth, can ask more. I still think back and look back. Right? I did this for the team with the this facility, the operation looks good. What could I have done for myself, though? Because at the end of the day, I think that's the balance to where it's not just a servant leader, and I just take care of my team and the business, but it's also making sure that if I'm wanting to repeat that same performance, possibly, am I still in a position to take care of myself to take care of others and go from there? As Michael Hingson 51:30part of your leadership style? Do you regard yourself more of a servant than anything else? Many Gus Rodriguez 51:38times, yes. Because, as mentioned before, you know, a lot of the positions I've worked in, whether it's supervisor or manager, the people that report to me, bless their souls, you know, they they do all the heavy lifting, I'm just blessed to be in a position where they trust my thinking, they trust my direction, the big picture that I want to go towards, and they follow Me, and they see that I want to step and get my hands dirty, too. But ultimately, I'm there to put them in positions to also succeed. Because, you know, a lot of my success, probably 90% of my success, even though I can look back and say no, well, I did this way. So why did this to set people up? Yes. But if no one is there to help steer the ship with me or help help move the ship. It's just me by myself, and I'm gonna get you nowhere. Michael Hingson 52:26Yeah. Yeah, it's still all about the team. And should be about the team. Yeah. So if you could, is there anything that you would change about your journey, your personal journey and your journey as a leader as well? Gus Rodriguez 52:47Oh, looking back. Michael Hingson 52:50Yeah, retrospective, a little here. Yeah. Gus Rodriguez 52:55personal journey, probably, my, it's always weird to say this, because, you know, I'm only 26. I, my career's only been about like, four to five years already, but I'm probably like, in my much younger port, or my mature started my career is looking back in, again, as a man advocate for mental health. Now, being a bigger advocate back then for myself to feel would have spoken up sooner or didn't try and brush it off. So you know, I got this just, it's whenever it is, what it is the other day, but I would have done that sooner, I would have probably avoided a lot more mental health damage or stress to myself. And I would have put myself in position for even earlier success, or just earlier moments of peace, so to speak. But in terms of professional, I would probably keep everything the same, you know, I've learned a lot. failures, pains, losses, it's it's all part of growing, then one thing I probably will change is going back to, again that you know, blessed so that when I was an attempt picker, they looked after me and he checked on me. I wish I had more conversation with them. Because I feel like those are the kind of people that we need in this world. And I feel like as much as he was checking up on me, I could have done better to also you check up on him and make sure he was good. Yeah. Well, Michael Hingson 54:19you'll have I'm sure other opportunities with people to do that very same thing. And you know, more than you did before. Yeah. One of the biggest things that I talk about a lot on the podcast, and you've alluded to it, and I think it's extremely important is we really need to not worry about the things that we don't have control over because as you've pointed out, really stresses us out. And we really should focus on the things we can control because the rest will have to take care of itself and it will take care of itself. But we're not going to be able to do anything to address it directly. And Gus Rodriguez 54:55you know, that's something that even now I still it's an ongoing battle because there's you know, because it's always gonna be a thing. There's always things that come up where it's out of my hands. But it's like, oh, you know, you tend to just think so much about it. And I tell people that's like one of the main killers or joys, just worrying about things that are out of control, which can easier said than done. But taking the time to just find those little things in life. Get your mind off of that, so that we can just enjoy yourself. Yeah, there Michael Hingson 55:24are too many forces that try to make us think about all the things that we don't have control over. And it's a tough discipline to just focus on the things over which we really have control, and to not stress and bother so much about everything else. But it's a it's a tough lesson to learn, but one that hopefully more of us will catch on to as we go forward, what's the biggest thing you would take away from everything that you've done or has happened to you so far? Oh, Gus Rodriguez 55:54let me know. Thanks. Thankfully, I can say I'm applying it. But the biggest thing I could take away, not just for myself, but as I spoken to multiple student orgs and classes without going back being a guest speaker. And even just in telling my leads, and my supervisors that I'm trying to develop, the biggest thing I can always take away is, is a mixture of two things is one, take care of people, and they'll take care of you. I believe that all aspects of life, you know, your family, your friends, your team members, take care of them, make sure they're good, their mental health is good. You're developing them, you're helping them in any way, shape, or form to get better. So that way, they understand the impact that they're doing impact that you're doing in life, and even doing direct impact, because I believe that, you know, I might help this person, they eventually help somebody else the same way I help them. It's a domino effect. And then the other mixture is just the end of the day. You know, life is life, things are gonna happen. Just make sure you're taking care of not just your body physically, but mentally because I feel the mental points overlooked so many times. And that's usually what leads to our, our own demise. So to speak. Michael Hingson 57:07You Yeah, certainly good sage advice to, to give to other people take care of yourself and watch out for others. Yep. Well, this has been fun, enjoyable, and I really appreciate your time. Can people reach out to you and talk with you in any way? How would they do that? Gus Rodriguez 57:29Oh, yeah, by all means, I believe you have my LinkedIn, you also my email, I think you reach out either one. Michael Hingson 57:36Once you go ahead and say why don't you go ahead and say those if he wouldn't and spill, anything that's relevant to spell? Gus Rodriguez 57:43Well, the email is g r o d r 025@gmail.com. I'll say that one more time. Gmail is g r o d r 025@gmail.com. As far as the LinkedIn and so it's very long to say but just look up, Gustavoe. with a period, Rodriguez. And you should be able to find me the title of my position that was operations leader, that was a little easier. Sort of trying to find like operations manager, supervisor, etc. Michael Hingson 58:14And people can call you Gus. I would prefer it Gus Rodriguez 58:17just because it's so cliche becoming unstoppable. It's like it's talking to my dad. There Michael Hingson 58:21you go. And it gets you to the point quicker also. Well, I want to really thank you for being here. And I want to thank you for listening to us. Hopefully you found our conversation useful and relevant in some way. I'd love to hear from you and would really appreciate you emailing me You can reach me at Michaelhi , m i c h a e l h i at accessibe A c c e s s i b e.com. Or go to our podcast page www dot Michael hingson.com/podcast. And Michael Hingson m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. So Michael hingson.com/podcast. And wherever you're listening, please give us a five star rating. We really value those ratings and your reviews. Hopefully, you really liked what you're hearing. And if you you do we want to know it. And if you have any thoughts, suggestions, or ideas of other people who want to come on unstoppable mindset as guests and guests the same for you love to hear any ideas. We are always looking for people to come on unstoppable mindset. So one last time though, Gus, I want to thank you for being here. And we really appreciate your time and value all the things that you said. So thanks very much. Gus Rodriguez 59:35Thank you very much for having me. It was a pleasure. Michael Hingson 59:42 You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com . AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

View Details

Peter Bacon is currently the CEO of Disability Employment Australia – an industry association representing providers of disability employment services. He grew up in the United Kingdom and soon after college was offered an opportunity to join a firm to deal with helping persons with disabilities to gain employment. He quickly realized that he loved the work and wanted to dedicate his life to the efforts of promoting employment and the rights of persons with disabilities.

Our conversation ranges through various aspects of issues about disability employment. He discuss what is currently happening in Australia and how a commission report has just been produced that acknowledges that persons with disabilities are systematically being excluded. Now the real fun begins. As Peter says, the problem has been named.

Our time is well worth your listen. Peter Bacon offers many insights that can be of use to all of us.

About the Guest:

Peter has worked in disability employment for more than 15 years. He started out on the frontline in East London, attracted to the role by a friend who said it was ‘all about drinking cups of tea and helping people’. Pretty soon he discovered that he wanted this to be his life’s work – that the transformative power of building a relationship with someone and helping them achieve their career dreams was unmatchable.

After that he was offered the opportunity to do a variety of business development and strategy roles within disability employment and adjacent spaces, including skills and training, justice and rehabilitation, as well as the opportunity to work in international markets. Throughout, he has always prioritised the ‘voice of the customer’ and impact on the most vulnerable and marginalised communities.

Seven years ago, Peter was offered the opportunity to move to Australia to head up strategy at major non-profit Campbell Page. During his six years there, he took a lead on diversifying the organisation into new markets including social enterprise, through an environmental initiative for young people following the bushfires.

Since February this year, Peter has been CEO of Disability Employment Australia – an industry association representing providers of disability employment services and with the aim of unlocking the potential of people with disability across Australia. Since taking on the role, he has pivoted the organisation to focus on ‘all dimensions’ of disability employment, including the vital role of the ‘demand’ side amid increasing expectations of employer involvement with diversity, equality and inclusion. This is a potentially transformative moment for disability employment in Australia thanks to the Disability Royal Commission Report that details systematic and structural exclusion of people with disability from mainstream Australian life, and as the Disability Employment Service is reformed against this backdrop. Peter is excited to be a part of these debates and to lead a significant, sustained shift in the disability employment rate and as to how people with disability are treated within the workplace.

Ways to connect with Peter:

Email-peter.bacon@disabilityemployment.org.au

About the Host:Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.

Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children’s Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association’s 2012 Hero Dog Awards.

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accessiBe Linkshttps://accessibe.com/https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBehttps://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/

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Transcription Notes:

Michael Hingson 00:00Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us. Michael Hingson 01:21Well, hi, and thank you once again for listening to unstoppable mindset and we're really glad you're here. We're having a lot of fun doing this. It's been going on since August of 2021. I've enjoyed every episode, I've gotten to learn a lot from all of our guests. I value that greatly I hope that you have as well. And we have another one today another exciting guest Peter Bacon down in Australia who is involved very seriously in the whole issue of disability employment and I guess you got started Peter because somebody said it's all about having a having cups of tea and helping people I want to hear about that. But Peter, welcome to unstoppable mindset. Peter Bacon 02:00Thanks, Michael. Great failure. Michael Hingson 02:03So what kind of tea? Peter Bacon 02:07I think it was English breakfast tea. Ah, gosh. Michael Hingson 02:10I love PG Tips. Peter Bacon 02:12Yeah, that's that's that's high quality tea. My great grandfather used to be a salesman for Yorkshire tea. So I should probably give a shout out to Yorkshire. Ah, Michael Hingson 02:22I've heard of Yorkshire tea. I haven't tried it. But people have recommended that I should try that too. But we have a relative, a cousin who teaches at the University of Manchester and she came over to visit us in when we were when I was living. My wife and I were in New Jersey and she brought a British care package and there were biscuits in it and other things and there was a box of PG Tips t and we both fell in love with it. It was hard to get in the US at the time. We found a place where we could mail order at some and then when we moved back to California after September 11 We found a market that had literally what they called a British aisle. And on the British aisle they sold PG Tips T and then we discovered that Amazon carried it so I get PG Tips T pretty inexpensively now and love it so I have it every day. Peter Bacon 03:17Sounds like you're quite the aficionado. I mean, being a Brit living in Australia. There are similar things. So there's, you know where the British Isles are in terms of within supermarkets. Also, there's various Facebook groups which relate to these things. I'm not that bothered about most of those things, but I do quite like milk chocolate digestive, so I always find them if I'd see that. Michael Hingson 03:40There you go. Yeah, well, that that makes sense to well, we yeah, I've just I've always enjoyed PG Tips, tea. It's a lot of fun. When I wrote vendor dog, I don't know whether you've read it the book about me and Roselle in the World Trade Center. I even mentioned it in there so well. I don't mind promoting PG Tips. T it's good to Peter Bacon 04:01get you on payroll, Michael. It Michael Hingson 04:03should. Well, I'm trying to Yeah, by that time, I'm trying to remember I think we had discovered it. I don't know whether we had discovered it through Amazon. But I buy it's like $20 and I get a twin pack. Each pack holds 260 or 280 bags. So it's 560 bags of tea for $20. So that now that Karen has passed away that lasts me, you know, half well a long time. It's 280 days every year so it takes a while to go through it. Because I well it does. It goes faster than that because i i make a pot I put three bat or two bags in a pot. And I drink a whole pot in the course of the morning. And then I don't drink any of it the rest of the day. I drink water the rest of the day. Peter Bacon 04:54Yeah, well I mean we're big on our caffeine here in Australia. Melvin, particularly when I go back home, when I go back home to Britain and drink my coffee, I can't cope at all because the coffee is so good in Melbourne. So yeah, yeah, there's a big bonus about living. Michael Hingson 05:11There you go. The caffeine has never done anything for me. It's really for me all about it being hot. But I like PG Tips over just having hot waters. So that's what I have. But the caffeine has never done anything more for me. I could I could drink a cup at night, and it wouldn't make a difference. Peter Bacon 05:29For me, I've got two young kids. So it's an important part of my life. Well, Michael Hingson 05:32they're see, are they going to grow up to be tea drinkers? Peter Bacon 05:38I don't know. I've already thought my eldest is 10. I've taught her how to use the coffee machine at home. It's like a proper coffee machine. So she's she's at the very least she's a trainee barista, which would be a good job for her to get to sort of 16 or 17. I think, Michael Hingson 05:52well, if it's a good coffee machine, it'll make hot chocolate to you. There you go. See? Well, Tim, tell me a little about the younger Peter, the early Peter growing up and all that if you would. Peter Bacon 06:06Yeah. So I was brought up in high school boy, Tunbridge Wells in Canton, England. And it was, you know, it wasn't necessarily that much of a, I did okay, epidemic, I wouldn't say was that much of a happy child. And a lot of that was down to I was, it was an dyspraxic. And, like, so many things. You know, education wants people to fit nicely into boxes. And nicely into a box. I was, you know, almost report said bright, but disorganized. Reports from my board might say the same thing now. But Michael Hingson 06:50keep you hired still, though. Yeah. Peter Bacon 06:52You know, I have people who helped me. Because I had systems that I do think to my head to, to get over those other things. But I wasn't you know, that that was a struggle for me, because it was it was that thing of well, what is causing this. And obviously, I got a diagnosis when I was 16 1516, that I was just practicing. And then suddenly everything made sense. Well, that's why I'm struggling. That's why I'm finding it hard to organize myself. But also, and there were some important lessons that I learned through through that period, some of which we may touch on later. But also, I was pretty well fired up with a sense of social justice, and where that came from, what was brought up with my family and all those kinds of things. And I went to university to study politics, and did okay, there. And I came out with this idea that I wanted to do a job that made the world a better place. That was really what I was looking for. And I thought, well, I know what I do, I'll go into politics, you know, you've got an opportunity to make the world better if you're if you're in politics. So what I did, I went to work for the Liberal Democrats did jobs and sort of policy campaigns for about a year, 18 months. And after that period, I went well, I don't think I'm gonna make my difference here. I really struggle. I really struggled with it. The because actually was, you know, you had my idealized sort of West Wing idea of what politics is like. But actually, most of the time, it's just about, well, what's going to win us the next election, Michael Hingson 08:30which is so sad that it's that way these days. Yeah. Peter Bacon 08:37And maybe on some level, it's worse than winning the next election, because we have the better ideas that we can implement. And that's going to make the world a better place. But I struggled to find that. Yeah, I also, I also struggled to, I was really struggled with the idea of, you know, you have your party line. And you have to just parrot that, and you have to support your political party. And critically, you know, the same way that you were just sports team. And well, actually, I'm quite critical of my sports teams. But, you know, I struggled with that to the idea that actually, your ideas weren't worth much if they weren't part of the party line. So I searched for something else to do. And I had a friend, and she was working as what they call an employment visor in East London for a company called NGS. And she said, Well, this is a bit different. But there's a job over here where what you do is you sit down with people, you make and drink cups of tea, and you try and help them try and find a job to try and help them in their lives. And I said, Well, I'll give that a go. Because at least I can drink tea. There you go. So I've got half a minute. So that's how I sort of started, you know slightly cluelessly, naively, all those kinds of things. That's how I started by My career in disability employment, and it's with a few variations where I've been set. Michael Hingson 10:08So what what did you start out doing? Or how did how did all of that work for you? So Peter Bacon 10:14I started out on a contract called Pathways to work. So it was a government service that was contracted out to a bunch of different organizations, some for profits or not for profits. And it was essentially about helping people with what they called health conditions. So people were claiming government benefits by virtue of the fact they and disability condition illness. And I was about helping them to find work. And I work for pretty good company colleges. So you've got a decent amount of training, you know, few weeks training, perhaps, which isn't bad by industry standards, and with good follow ups, and but I was pitching I had a caseload of 100 people or more, who were living in some of the poorest parts of East London, we had pretty complex slides. And my job was to find as many as I could have that group jobs, and to be decently respectful to the rest. So that's what I was doing. And obviously, you go into it fairly cluelessly. It just at that time, the company I work for had a pretty good philosophy of just recruiting people with the right values, who are kind of bright and good communicators. And so it was it was quite a, you know, a really good band of people who are similar to me. And yeah, so So you would see people, they, they'd come because they, it's got a job. And you would work with them, you put a plan together, you talk about what their dreams were, what their aspirations were, what their motivations were, but also the things that they were facing in their lives. You put that plan together, need, they try and execute on that plan. And sometimes it would work, sometimes you would go through and they would find a job that was meaningful to them. And they would stay in that job. And it would be a great experience. But oftentimes, it didn't work that way. Because lives don't. And, you know, circumstances from change. And so you have to roll with that too. But certainly, for me, it's like an experience of you know, helping people in those situations experience that sort of thing every politician should ever have. Because actually, you really see the impact of policy. You really see how much things like a little tweak to a Working Tax Credit can make when people are right on the breadline, but is considered a real privilege to be able to help people. And it was in those moments of actually the plan coming together, and helping people to find work that was absolutely transformative to their lives, that I realized that my life's purpose was in this work. You know, I think of a guy called Derrick who came to me and first time he indicated to me, he said, is, you know, is probably in his mid 50s, late 50s, perhaps you had neck problems and back problems. But the real reason why he was off work wasn't to do with his physical shape. It was to do with the fact that he had lost a lot of hope, I think about a better future for himself. And he said, RP, I, you know, was it was it was interesting, we're in an office in Stratford in East London that overlooked at that time, the Olympic size is being built, because not that had the Olympics in 2012. years would have been about 2008 2009 sort of time, so you could literally see outside, you could see the the Olympics are being built. And so people would say, oh, there's no jobs from EP and I'd say, yeah, look out there. The world is coming to Stratford, change the chain. But Derek, you said our Pete was finished outline, which I use on everyone going live? And he said, Yeah, well, I'm not sure about that. Because my factories to be out there. And that was the last time I work and they bulldoze it for the Olympic site, which put me back on my heels a little bit. But anyway, so we talked about it. We said, well, you know, do you want to work? Yeah, I do. I just don't think I ever will again. And I said, Well, why do you want to work? as well. You don't quite like working one but really the answer is I'm ashamed by our four grandkids LM ashamed to even see them because when it comes down to their birthdays or Christmas, I can't afford presents and don't feel like I'm a proper granddad to that. And I can't hold my head high. And that was a tough thing to hear. But then, but then we got to work, you know, so Well, what do you want to do? He said, I love history. I love history too. So, you know, often talking through bits of history and aromas and such, like, we weren't, well, okay, let's try and find your job work in the museum. So we wrote to every museum, and it's sort of reasonable public transport radius of his house. And he eventually ended up getting a job at the Greenwich Maritime Museum, doing sort of like janitorial work, which was fine, this conditioning was alright with that. And he loved it. He absolutely adored it. You know, he loved seeing particularly loved seeing that sort of groups of school kids coming along as part of their tours. And he just thought, yeah, I'm part of that I'm proud to kids learning about history, which is something I'm so passionate about. But at the moment, where it really came through to me was when he sent me a photo of him and his grandkids at Christmas with their presence, just like that. Yeah, if you can, if I do anything in my life, I've done that. Right. I think he had to do that more times over the net. And then you move into other roles, and you like wanting to set the conditions where that can happen more often. But that that kind of moment was a moment, I found my purpose, because I realized that it's just a spectacular privilege of being part of that journey. Michael Hingson 16:32So does he realize today how much not only did you help him, but he helped you? Peter Bacon 16:40Yeah, well, I'd love to one. I don't know. I think certainly, I would talk to him about that. I'd say look, you know, things like this are the reason why, you know, I get out of bed in the morning. Why I try so hard. And, you know, thank you for that. But, uh, but perhaps, yeah, perhaps there isn't a point there actually. It wasn't mutual. a mutual thing? Yeah. Well, Michael Hingson 17:06you know, it's, it's interesting to really specialize in that, and really help people find jobs. What kind of barriers did people throw in your way? As you were trying to find these? These employment opportunities? I'm sure. Employers were oftentimes very skeptical and so on, as is usually the case. Yeah, Peter Bacon 17:31employee employers, frankly. So we're talking about 15 years ago, is when I was on the front line. But yeah, we've not moved that forward that far since or, or at all, really, I've moved across the world and found some of the same issues, which is I think, it is just going to blame employers. And sometimes I do. But I think also, what we need to really do is look at everything that causes that to be the case, certainly, one of the things that you hear from employers is, oh, it's just going to be too hard. You know, this is going to be extra effort for me, I don't need extra effort. I don't need burden. To point out, why do you achieve that? We actually have things that we can do to make this easier. And, you know, in the case of something like that, there'll be a massive asset to your workforce, and you have their documents. But that's even if you get to the point where you can have those make those points to a decision maker. Ultimately, the problem is that institution means so many employers are set up not to make a commitment to disability employment. One of the worst things that we've seen, you know, talking about the last 1520 years, one of the worst things that we've seen is the over professionalization of HR and recruitment. So if you say, right, I'm going to be very specific about the box that the person must fit in order for them to get to an interview, eventually get the job. Well, unfortunately, a lot of the time that specificity, rules out diversity in the two things are inherently diametrically opposed sometimes. So actually, it's a systematic exclusion is the big problem that I see. And obviously, that goes to employees, but it also goes to society, education in general. We've got to be segregated, and we've got to address those systematic issues. So if we're going back to well, what do they hear from employers in that era? What do I hear from employers now? It's really the result of the systematic thing. So you hear I don't have anyone with disability in my workforce. So I don't know that I set out to do it. I'm like, you definitely do. You just don't you just haven't set up a situation where people feel psychologically safe to disclose that. And you've not asked probably, but you will have people in your your workforce who've got disability. And if they think that, then you get to a point where being diverse and being inclusive isn't normalized, it feels weird to people it feels alien. And so therefore, they don't think, Oh, actually, it's relatively simple to employ someone like Derek or someone like Michael some like Peter, because actually, they have a pretty good idea about, about how we can work with them to tailor the job to what they need. It's it's there's almost a mythology that creeps up around it. So you need to do mythologize that you to normalize. So I think there's all sorts of barriers that get thrown in the way the reality is employees aren't doing enough. But perhaps that's also a result of factors that are we as society or as government doing enough also to address those systematic issues. So it's, it's a, it is a complex and thorny one. But I think it's something that we all need to be battling. Michael Hingson 20:56Well, it's interesting to, to talk about this and to hear what you're saying. Michael Hingson 21:05Because it's, it is easy to get very frustrated at employers. But we all know that they're just as much a part of society and we're raised and brought up buying into certain myths that aren't really true. But the other part about it is, however, that CEOs and so on, often start their companies because they have a vision. And the problem is they don't carry that vision over to other things other than just whatever it is that they're creating or doing. So they don't vision, having people who are different becoming part of their workforce, even though the value that is brought by a person with disability is tremendous, such as we know how hard it is to get a job. We know the unemployment rates, and how serious they are. And so if we get a job, we really are pretty grateful overall to wanting to make sure we keep that job. Peter Bacon 22:05Well, that's right. I mean, what's your what's your experience? Obviously, you know, you you're from America today, it's a different, it's a different economy. It's a different culture from Australia, or Britain that I've worked in what's been your experience of employers, and maybe some of the barriers that might have been in your way, Michael Hingson 22:22I think the attitudes are really the same. That is people are overall, not nearly as excited about hiring people with disabilities, because as I describe it, people think that disability means a lack of ability, and we've got to get away from that. Disability is a characteristic and we all exhibit in our own ways, whether we are blind in a wheelchair, or sighted and rely on light to be able to function. Disability is something that we all have, in one way or another. It's a characteristic that everyone on the planet has. And until we get people to recognize that disability does not mean a lack of ability, and that just because some of us are different than others, it doesn't mean that we can't do the job, we are going to continue to have these problems wherever we are in the world. Peter Bacon 23:21I think that's I think that's right. And I think it's only there's a couple of points that are made to that. One is, I think we need to bring up our kids better when it comes when it comes to actually understanding that point. I think you know, I've done it before we've you know, been walking through a shopping center, and, and someone will say, you know, you'll see a kid saying, Oh, look at that, you know anything about wheelchair, I want to go out and ask the person about the wheelchair. And their mom will be like, Oh, no, don't do that. Absolutely don't no, no, no. taboo, taboo. Yeah. Well, actually, that's not unhealthy. Michael Hingson 24:00No, it's not at all. It promotes the fear. It promotes Peter Bacon 24:03the fear and promotes of that person's alien. They're different from us in a way that I think a lot of other ways wouldn't be tolerated. You know, you know, if your employer says, I don't want to employ this person, because they're disabled, would they be allowed to say that? If it was because they're black? No, they wouldn't. Well, they're very well or not presented, but they will be seen immediately as as being racist, but people will say that openly about people with disability. And that's bigotry. But and with all bigotry, I'm afraid. You know, you've got to start with the way that we educate our kids, the way that we talk about society and as a community. So you've got to you've got to start there. And the second one is, and I think it's why the education is so important, because it's something I think a lot about is well, what should government be doing? I, particularly with employers, to put a thumb on the scale, because as far as I concerned, the kind of just let employers gradually engage with their subjects hasn't worked. Like, it's, it's going too slowly, like in Australia, the rate of disability employment, it's maybe shifted a little, but it's not shifted much over a couple of decades of investment. And why is that? It's because we have too little expectation of employee. So I think a lot about what should government be doing to bit of a carrot and stick approach, right, so, but if you go with the stick, what I worry about is, let's say you go, and some countries do, let's put quite as in place that you have to have, you know, in America, you probably call it servitude action, right? You have, you have to engage with this, you have to do it. And my worry is that if we haven't educated society enough, when you do that, is quite counterproductive, because it breeds a certain resentment. And I think, you know, if somebody if you feel I was someone got the leg up into the job only because of a quota, that can be problematic. So I think that well actually have to do if you're gonna do something like that, you have to do the education piece around it. And that also goes to people with disability around actually knowing that it's okay, if you're doing the leveling of the playing field. And I think back to I mentioned that 16 year old me earlier. And so then dyspraxia kick, in meant that, you know, I did exam to the, you know, I'm old enough that when I did exams, it was it was handwritten, exact. That was what was expected in the UK. And my handwriting is absolutely atrocious. I struggled to write legibly, but Michael Hingson 26:45but still you should have been you should have been a doctor. Peter Bacon 26:49Apart from my lack of ability of all things scientific. Sure. But yeah, my team often sort of like, oh, my gosh, yeah, they see me I'll go to the whiteboard to write something on it. And it'll be impenetrable to anyone but me, right? But because of that, if they give me an extra half an hour and exam if I wanted it, so it comes down at the end of every exam, and they'd say, Pete, do you want the extra half an hour? Every single time? I said, No. Why did I say no? One, because I didn't want other people to think that I've got great grades because I had a leg up. And two, I didn't want me to think that I did. I didn't want myself to go well, I only succeeded because I but now I've reflected that and go well at all, they were trying to do them as level the playing field. But you have to acknowledge that in leveling the playing field, you have might have to sit uncomfortably with the fact that to other people, it might look like you're getting an unfair advantage. So these are all all the things I think about when I think about well, how does the government put his thumb on the scale in a way that brings society with it in a way that we at the attitudes move in a positive way? Rather than we just set it up as a kind of zero sob? You know, resentment building kind of protests. Yeah. Michael Hingson 28:15Well, and we really need to understand what equality and leveling the playing field is all about. You're absolutely right. In colleges today, in Well, first of all, in this country, you really probably couldn't get away with saying, Well, I can't hire you because you you're disabled, or you have a disability. Because of the Americans with Disabilities Act. In fact, there's a television show that's been on here for several years called What would you do, and it's, it's hosted by a guy named John King Yonas on ABC television. And the idea behind the show was they would put actors in situations and portray different kinds of scenarios, to see how the people around them behaved. And so my favorite is still there is one where two deaf actresses and it was in part, their idea came into a coffee shop. Well, so they were just deaf students from Rochester Institute for the Deaf, but they came in to this coffee shop and there was an actor who played the barista. And what they did is they came up and they said they wanted a job and his his role was to consistently say, I can't hire you, I'm not going to hire you. And they say, why? Well, because you're deaf. You can't hear what I say. And just, you know, you can imagine all the things that that he would say, you know, I can't hire you and, and finally, and some people looked daggers at at him and a few people really reacted pretty violently about it. But one group of three HR people pulled him aside and said, Look, you're handling this all wrong. You can't say that the person's death well, but the person to put you can't Don't say that they have more rights than we do. What you do is you accept the application then just right, not a fit, and file it. Yeah. You know, and those are HR people. The reality is that so what they're saying is, it's open discrimination that they weren't practicing, as John Ken Jonas pointed out, but the problem is, it does happen all too often. And it does still continue. And we still have any number of cases that are litigated to try to deal with it. But it ultimately comes down to we're not including people with disabilities and the subject. In life conversations, we're still feared, we're not looked at the same way other people are. And so we're not included. And as a result, we continue to see the fear promulgated, like you said, about the mother saying, don't talk to that person in the wheelchair to the child. I've seen that happen a lot. Yeah. And my wife, who was in a wheelchair, her whole life, experience the same thing. Peter Bacon 31:10And I'm sure she'd love to have been asked by small town to start to sort of break down those barriers. Michael Hingson 31:18Yeah, we're not breaking it down nearly as much as we can, or should I mean, look how fast we started dealing with LGBTQ and other things. Although there's and of course, the backlash of the people who hate that. But still, it's at least being talked about, it's at least out in the open. And we're almost to the end of October, which is National Disability Employment Awareness Month. And honestly, I have yet to see on any of the major TV networks in the news, or any of the shows, discussions about it. And that's what happens every single year. Peter Bacon 31:55You're so right. I mean, it's a really in Australia, it's actually I think we're having an important moment, it's still not as prominent as I'd like it to be. But what we just had his we just had what we call a Royal Commission here with and that's sort of the big, well funded commissions. That happened every few years into critical issues. And this one was what we call the shorthand it phrase, the disability Royal Commission, but it was really looking at the whole piece around exclusion, and exploitation and abuse of people with disability in the system. And the reason why it's an important moment, is because that Royal Commission reported down that Australia is systematically excluded excluding people with disability from mainstream life. And that results in some terrible things, it certainly results in the kind of things we've been talking about in terms of, you know, worse economic outcomes. But it also involves things like people be absolutely abused the system. So, and it's harrowing to think about, it's harrowing to read. But it's important, because you've got to name the problem before you start dealing with it. And the problem is that systematic exclusion, so a number of things are going to come out of that report, as they're forming your task force on the back of it, there is some, the headline thing is the desegregation of education, which will sort of happen over the coming decades, because it's not easy to change it. But obviously, that's about getting rid of dual systems of schooling and properly funding, inclusive schooling with a mainstream education. But there's also things there, like the entering ending of sheltered workshops where people with disability are paid to the very, you know, I made to sort of, you know, it's a job, but it's at a rate far less than national minimum wage, to do routine jobs. So there's things like that. But also, there's things that sort of, I think, hit on the world of the immediate world of disability employment, too. So I see this is a moment where everyone Australia can say, actually, we know because they met $600 million review has happened into the way that we treat people with Australia, disability in Australia. And that fundamentally, the way that we treat people disability is a disgrace. And let's start changing that. Let's let this be the moment where we say, Ah, that was the moment where the government pivoted where society got on board and we've really changed things for the better. And those things unfortunately, you can't you can't change the way that society others thinks about people with disability as being alien, or there's going to be can't do it overnight. Right. But the best way to do it is to name it and to start working on it. So to have those points around how do we start doing it? I think actually calling it out for what it is. And then moving on from there is an important moment for Australia. Michael Hingson 35:20I think that is definitely a good start. And one of the things that I think would be very helpful is if the Commission as they're going through and talking about solutions, would make sure that part of what they do is include disability education, in the school system, we've got to start teaching children about it. And we've got to start teaching children, not to fear disabilities, not to fear people with disabilities. And to understand all it really means is they're different. Yeah, Peter Bacon 35:52I think that's that's exactly right. I think the desegregation of schools is part of that. But you're right. But to train kids to do that, you also need to train their teachers to think like that. You need to train the parents to think like that. And I think you're right, it's exactly that it's about going well, actually, we're all different. We all have different things that we bring to the table, we all have different challenges. Don't Don't other people don't go, oh, just because someone's in a wheelchair. That's the fact that's their defining characteristic. It isn't. It isn't it? is their way of getting round. Michael Hingson 36:31Makes it as part of what makes them who they are. But it's just a part, just like yeah, short people aren't going to make great centers in basketball, or probably not unless they can jump real high. But the reality is that, that we all have gifts, and we all need to be able to use the gifts that we have. And it's important to recognize that I've talked several times on this podcast about how I say everyone has a disability. And for most people, your light dependent, if the power goes out, you guys are in a world of hurt until you find a new light source. But that doesn't mean that you don't have a disability says that mostly because we've really concentrated on making light on demand part of our lives, you don't generally have the problem. But I've seen it happen all too often where the power goes out and people don't know what to do. They start screaming, and they may or may not find a flashlight or a smartphone to turn on to get light. But that's the first thing they want to do is to get light. I don't need to do that. Peter Bacon 37:36No, no. And you know, that might might be one of the reasons why, you know, when you know that in the Twin Towers, you actually were able to deal with things currently. Michael Hingson 37:47Not really, because we had power and lighting all the way down. The reason that I was able to deal with it was that I learned what to do in an emergency. And it created I learned it so deeply and so well, that it created a mindset in me. Because I was imagining all sorts of things above us, when we saw people coming down the stairs, past us who were burned and so on. We can only imagine what was going on up above. But, you know, I was on the south side of the building when it was hit on the north side. And the belt building was hit 18 floors above us. So as people you know, people always say, Well, of course you didn't know you couldn't see it, excuse me, nobody could Superman and X ray vision were are not real yet. And the fact is, as we were going down the stairs, nobody knew what was going on. I was the first one with a group near me that figured out, we were smelling something and I figured out it was the fumes from burning jet fuel. But what we still didn't really know. And the reality is it's not a matter of eyesight. But for me getting down was all about having knowledge. I didn't rely on needing to read signs to know what to do. I already knew what to do. Peter Bacon 39:00You and that is an example of how to you had a strength, you're prepared. You know which which I think again, is goes to how different people have different challenges and different strengths, but because of who they are. And that strength, it's a blight. So it's an incredibly powerful and patient example of that. And I think when we think about the workplace and again, it's about understandings of understandings of disability. And it's not just that I speak to employers, and they go, alright, well. I don't have anyone working here with disability because I don't have anyone in the wheelchair. And I say, what well are the 4% of people with disability near the wheel wheelchair, that's just like one element. Yeah. And, and so, you know, they say, Oh, well, I don't want you know, art or they might say, Oh, well, you know on disability accessible, I've put in ramps everywhere. And I like good. I'm glad you've put in ramps everywhere good stuff. However that is that is not it? And then the conversation goes well actually one is one is the most important thing that we can do to be close to people with disability. And I say actually, it's about approach. It's about attitude. It's about well, actually, am I going to do exactly what you said, which is take people as they come and say, Well, what are you good at? And one of the things that we're going to need to think about in terms of the way that we manage you. So you might get somebody you know, I've had this and the job was always had that conversation, I say, How can I help you to thrive in work? What can help you flourish here? And so I might say, Well, I'm basically fine. But I do get quite acute stress, and anxiety. And here's the times when that happens. These are my triggers. So one of them, it might be doing a big presentation. And so and so then you then you get into a real conversation about how to manage someone, it's not really about disability, although you might, if it's significant enough, it might be classed as disability is a base about how to manage somebody within their full self. So so this person might say, well, actually my triggers big presentation. So you said right, okay, so Are we avoiding in presentations, then? No. But what I might need is a day free before that clear to make sure I'm absolutely 100% prepared, is that will mitigate my anxiety? Okay, well, what we'll do is we're going to block out your diary, for a day before we get to those big presentations. That's fine. And I think that, you know, it's, it's that point about actually just managing the whole person. So you can bring your whole self to work. You got some great strengths that we want to maximize, you got some challenges that we need to think about mitigate whatever. And that's the biggest change that most employees can make to actually get the biggest workplace adaptation that you can make. And I think that's one of the main things that I'm saying to employers, and then they go, I can do that. That's fine. I can do that. Well, go ahead. Yeah. Yeah. Michael Hingson 42:12Well, the other thing, it seems to me is if I, if I find a person who was very stressed out, because they were afraid of doing big presentations, and they needed a day to prepare, but then they came in and did the best presentation I ever saw. I would want to start giving that person more big presentations, and more days to prepare, because eventually, they're going to realize they don't need a day to prepare anymore. They're used to doing it, which is another part of the process. People always say one of their biggest fears is public speaking. And I'm sure people say to me, and would say to me, Well, you're not afraid because you can't see the audience. Look, my first presentation, after September 11 was two weeks. And a day later, I had been invited to speak at a church service in central New Jersey. And I asked the pastor, how many people were going to be at this outdoor service 6000. I knew the number. I knew what that meant. Don't tell me about whether I can see them or not. I knew they were there. But it did. It didn't matter. Because I was used to talking to people in a variety of different kind of public situations. But I realized that a lot of people are afraid of public speaking, because that's what they've been taught. That's what they've been told, is one of our greatest fears. And we've got to get away from doing so much to teach people how to be afraid. Peter Bacon 43:40Yeah, I think that's that's exactly right, to teaching people how to be afraid, but also teaching people that difference. Difference is something to be afraid of. I mean, the whole of human history is a litany of being afraid of difference, and then acting in terrible ways because of it. You know, to get to the point about politics, like who are the politicians who are who are least like that we need to get to political? Yeah, it is those who seek to amplify those divisions, or create new divisions where none existed, right? That that is the most awful thing that people can do. And unfortunately, it's still wielded as a weapon like that, to this day. I suspect the next US presidential election, that's going to be a big part of it. And the more that we do that, the harder we're going to be able to get away from this actual where it is get to is just common sense. And we are all people. We're all here trying to live good lives. Doesn't matter whether you've got a disability, what the color of your skin is, any of those things, that we are all different and that's good. It is not bad. And I think getting to that realization runs to the heart of where disability employment is which is Disability Employment is good. Being an employer, we have a diverse staff is good, I can show you the numbers. But really, I want you to believe it in your heart more than I want you to believe it in your mind. Because that's where real change happens. And Michael Hingson 45:13that's where we have to go, we have to recognize that part of the cost of doing business should and is inclusion, whatever that means. I mean, we provide coffee machines for people, we provide monitors for people. The National Federation of the Blind is the largest consumer organization of blind people in the United States. And they pay a hefty electric bill every month at the National Center in Baltimore, Maryland, for the sighted people who work there to be able to have lights. Yeah, those are those of us who are blind. And those who work there who are blind, don't need the lights. But the other people do the light dependent people. So whose disability are we providing an accommodation for the real? Peter Bacon 46:01Nice adaptation? Yeah, good estimate the workplace adaptation for the site? I think. Yeah, it Michael Hingson 46:05is. It is, it's a reasonable accommodation for sighted people who are light dependent. So I love to use light dependent instead of sighted people because that's the disability that we we have to deal with, for all of you. And it is it is still, you know, something that is so rarely really discussed. But speaking of differences, and so on what decided to take you away from London to Australia? Peter Bacon 46:34The short answer is love. Which is the best answer, isn't it? Yeah, my wife's Australia. So Nicola, we met we met in the UK, we both work for a company I work for that it just is an Australian company, both work there and, you know, sort of got together there. And then the Bentley sort of production point of having found in that kind of thing. And it's really well, where do you want to bring up your family. And for us, Australia, it's great, great place to bring up your family, you know, they got good weather, we were walking distance for the beach, it's a great place to bring up kids. And I was also offered the opportunity to move. Yeah, I sort of want to look at the mate said. So. It's always made for me in the stories, isn't it, mate said. Others. There's a job out here with your name on it, Pete, which is sort of heading up strategy for not for profit, we've had significant disability employment services. So that was part of what I was looking at. But also there was other things that I was doing to which I was quite a joy when I was there. Clearly, I said a pub. Obviously, in Australia, we had the terrible bushfires four years ago now, you know, burned a huge amount of land. Yeah, scarred families, economies. And like, you know, the sad part of Southern New South Wales, particularly where, you know, did quite a lot of work for my previous employer. And the trauma that's there from that entire experience is absolutely palpable. And so being part of a nonprofit that had a significant presence in that world, but you know, they're headquartered Campbell pays for company was headquartered in Batemans. Bay, which is right at the heart of when it was buyers here. I was I was trying to do something positive. So what we did is we set up a social enterprise, which was about doing Bush regeneration, giving jobs training, to really disadvantaged people, many young people, but not exclusively in that area. But there was a lot of big bush regeneration to be done a lot of planting a lot of just work to, to make sure that healthy landscape again. And so yeah, that was that was, well, you know, we've got some good funding and to do that, we've pivoted a bit commercial social enterprise to and so and suddenly, I really enjoyed to the idea of becoming more of a job creator as well as just an advocate for disability, Clomid. That's your job creation was was great. And also, you know, we had a very diverse team, they're physically, you know, hard to get people with sort of major physical conditions into Bush regeneration jobs, but certainly people pretty significant disabilities, psychosocial conditions, etc. And there's opportunity for them to learn the craft of how you look after the land around you how you connect to that land and strengthen it. And so that was something which I did when I was there that I really enjoyed. Michael Hingson 49:49So what's the organization that you work for now? 49:51So now I work for an organization called Disability Employment Australia. So I've been co there for eight for nine months now. And our job is to represent was I always think that we have sort of two key sort of stakeholders in this. So the first is, we are the Industry Association for providing the Disability Employment Services in Australia, what that includes those who deliver what we call death, disability employment service, but also other services such as the National Disability Insurance Scheme. And then our call beneficiary, which is, of course, people with disability, making sure that we are holding the government to account when it comes to making sure that it's doing all the right things, in terms of policy settings for people with disability, and importantly, that we're leading the charge when it comes to doing things like getting employees to engage with diversity and inclusion. So, yeah, that's here to work for now. Michael Hingson 50:56Wow. So you, you sound like you really love it? And do you get to influence the government a lot? Because of what you do? 51:05I'd like to think so. You know, it's recently had the year of, of government, of ministers and state departments. So, yes, I think we have a pretty good voice to government. And there's lots of relatively important things where we've been influential. So if you look at say, the Royal Commission report that I was referencing earlier, there's quite a few things in there that we, disability, Australia, have been advocating for, like the institution of a Disability Forum and center for excellence. Like it's there's some technical things around the level of mutual obligation, which is effectively sanctions regimes that people with disability have if they don't engage, which we are in favor of limiting. Also, things like eligibility or support from government, require influential and so so yeah, I think we have the year of government. We're just a small organization, though. So we need to punch above our weight. But but also, we importantly, have very good relationships with our members. So we are able to be quite influential in helping them to collaborate and to work on things that are cross sectoral. So for example, we are currently about to launch a new training module, which is there a micro credential for all disability employment professionals in the field of Australia. So we're doing quite a lot to raise the standards in our industry, too. Michael Hingson 52:50Were you involved in doing any of the work with the Commission? Or how did how did you have input to help that? 52:57Yeah, so they had a series of hearings or consultations, as well as opportunities to pull in submissions. And, you know, da were did testify at those hearings, and provided a lot of submissions around around these issues of employment, obviously, employment is only one relatively small element of what they were, they were looking at it from a whole system's perspective. But yeah, so do a pilot that we're constantly making policy submissions on on other items. So we have something called the National Disability Insurance Scheme here. It's a major thing. Which funds support for people with disability lifelong disability, where they get better chunks of funding that they can administer, and spend on the things they need to live a more independent and happy life. And there's many great things about that scheme. really supportive of it. But it's something that's been implemented over the last decade, and it certainly has some improvements that can be made. And some of those improvements, for example, are in the world of employment and how it actually claimant to participants of the NDIS can receive more support and support when it comes to employment. So that's the kind of thing was we're making policy submissions into a lot. Michael Hingson 54:25What kind of global lessons, 54:30global lessons that we can learn from, what you're doing, or just global lessons in general that you feel that we need to tell the world more about, and encourage the world to adopt. 54:41But I think there's two things I talked about. One is, I think we probably need to get a bit better at sharing. It's funny because, you know, I speak to people I email or colleagues from from other countries of the world. And we're dealing with the same things, you know, especially those kind of Western The veteran style developed economies, right. So I went to the World Association's post employment conference in Vancouver in June of this year. And I was struck by the similarities and the fact that actually workforce participation rates, people with disability are consistently at that sort of mid 50s type rate. I think I'm slightly better at a macro, actually. But that might be sort of the way that you count unemployment. But there's a lot of similarities, then we need to share. So one thing I'm quite excited about is I am on the board of the World Association supported employment. And in four years time, the global conference is coming to Australia. And it's a workout with Sydney, we're going to host a live but it's coming to Australia. So that's a good example of where we collaborate. But in terms of the lessons of what works, and global literature review, and speaking with colleagues and that kind of thing, the big thing I would say, is that you can talk all you like about technology and all sorts of WIZO innovations. But the reality is, there's nothing more powerful than the humans helping humans. That's, that's the reality is, if you've got somebody who needs a bit of support, find a job to overcome their challenges. Having somebody who read he's got a bit of expertise, who really cares, he wants to build a relationship, and they share that journey together. That is a most important thing that you can do. Obviously, there are variables in there like how well trained is that other staff have experienced? Are they? Do you have access and technology that maybe helps that Job Search work better? How are your relationships with employers, all those things count? But most important of all, is have you got a really committed human helping that other human? Because that's where you see transformations. Michael Hingson 56:54We've talked a lot about attitudes, which I think is absolutely appropriate, and probably the biggest thing we face. But at the same time, what's the role of Technology and Disability Employment and making it better? Do you think? 57:09I think it's a really interesting question. And one that I'm grappling with, I think, you look at any of the sorts of papers about the future directions of economies, etc. And you see, our world is higher skilled jobs, AI or that kind of thing. And I think AI certainly is, is it is an opportunity, because the ability to work within those systems is not restricted to geography. So I think that's something which, as it evolves, could be a really great thing for people with disability who are who want work, also can do things like overtime, it will improve things like job matching, all that kind of thing to make to take a bit of friction out of that system. But the biggest development, and one, which I hadn't necessarily foreseen is the flexibility that workplaces are now taking primarily because the pandemic happened. You know, it's funny, you know, you spend years talking to businesses about actually you can change your business model, you can be more flexible, you can use remote working more, and again, and that to heart that if we need to do that it'd be a five year change management project. And then the pandemic happens. Yeah. And they do it within two weeks. Michael Hingson 58:35And I was only asking you about whether you thought that the pandemic made a significant difference in disability employment and just the world in general. And you're talking about that. Go ahead. I Peter Bacon 58:45think so. I think it has, because I think it means that the idea, I mean, it's kind of things Firstly, more people are working at home, I'm calling in, I can see you're you're in your house, I mean by house. Five years ago, at least I would have been in my office, right. So that so the fact that we're now working that hybrid way or the remote way, certainly erodes the importance of geography in a way, which I think is important for people with disability and respect for everyone, frankly. And that's a pretty big change. However, one of the things around that that I think about quite a lot is that firstly, it tends to apply more to people who already have a job. So as you there's a relatively small percentage of jobs that are advertised with flexibility of that, compared to the number of jobs, we've actually done flexibly if you know what I mean. So if you're in a job and you say, right, okay, can I have an extra day a week to work at home? Lots of employers will accommodate that. However, they won't necessarily advertise the fact that they're to do so. The other thing is around the types of jobs so So, obviously people with disabilities at all different types of jobs, but the ones who are unemployed tend to go in at those relatively low levels, not exclusively by any means, but tend to. And then you hope there's an opportunity to build up from there. But again, those jobs, which are at the relatively low levels tend to be the ones with less flexibility. I think it's notable that, you know, we talked a lot around the sort of key personnel, key service workers during COVID. And then all the ones those were people badly paid, but have to be present. And I think there's a reality there, which really to think through a little bit more about how the benefits of flexibility can accrue to people working at all levels of the labor market, and how we can also be upfront advertised flexibility as a component of the role, rather than something that has to be asked for what what somebody's in the room? Yeah, well, Michael Hingson 1:00:58and the problem is, I see both sides of that, because they're all too many people who try to take too much advantage of things. And so it is an issue, but at the same time, we do need to recognize that there is a value and be more flexible than we have. And I think we're seeing more that in reality, it's a good thing to let people have some time to work at home, less stress. So many things happen if you do that, right. 1:01:29Ah, yeah, absolutely. And for all sorts of reasons. In my personal case, it gives me more talent for kids exactly, like more than out to get into the city. You know, that's three hours each day that I get back to spend with my children. But that's, you know, kids aren't young for long. That's massive. So, so there's huge advantages. And that's great for my well being, which makes me a more productive worker be you know, so there's huge advantages to do that. Yeah, maybe people might take advantage sometimes. But it's your good boss, you have an understanding of the output of people working for you. And you understand what acceptable looks like and what not acceptable looks like I think, Michael Hingson 1:02:13well, yes, it's right. If you're a good boss, you, you deal with the people who are taking advantage of it. And hopefully, they they grow to understand. 1:02:25Yeah, that's right. And, you know, and you can, you can always have a look at the, the way that you extend the flexibility. But But overall, I did, and is a, a massively important part of what's happened over the over the past five years. But also, we should not ignore that lesson of how quickly employers can pivot if they need to, if they need to. Yeah, all those businesses like, you know, the ones that make gin, who are making hammers that hand sanitizer, within a week of having to do it, by when they need to, when there's an economic imperative to do so. Businesses can change fast. So what's the implication for Disability Employment one is around flexibility. But the second is, if you really wanted to pivot to being a fantastic inclusive employer, people with disabilities, you can change quickly. Yep, it's not this thing that is a five year change management project as Yeah, Michael Hingson 1:03:23I agree. What are your hopes for the future in terms of disability employment type services, and so on? I am hopeful. 1:03:35And I think we have to be in the kind of work that we do. So from an Australian perspective, and is to that point, which I made earlier around, there was a moment here, where we've admitted what the problem is. And that problem is systematic exclusion. If we start from that premise, and start building from that premise, I think there's a lot of hope. If we go well, actually, what we need to do exactly, as you say, is address education and awareness and attitudes. That's a great start. If we start disaggregating ourselves, that will be these are things that are actually the building blocks to changing the way that disability employment works. Beyond that, I think I have a moment and the kind of people I work with in my movement, to really lobby government are making substantive change that will change the prospects for people with disability when it comes to employment. So this point around, you know, can I get to the government saying, right, you need to put the thumb on you no need to put your thumb on the scale when it comes to employers and how much they're engaging. That conversation is now open. When I go to the, you know, government and say, You need to be better employers of people with disability, your your right to employ people disability or pitiful. Well, they are going to need to change, you know, so I think we are in a moment now. Certainly in Australia, where we've named the problem. We know that it can't be swept under the carpet. And we can start dealing with it. So that makes me very hopeful for the future. globally. It's a classic case of you know, the certain Lucic Martin Luther King quote about the the Ark of moral justice being being long, but it doesn't waver on a straight line. I think that's, I think, I think that's where we're at, like, I think I think we are moving towards degrees of progress, but it's slow. My hope is that we can use moments like the one that we have in Australia at the moment to accelerate that to move down the curve further, faster. And I think there is certainly the opportunity to do that. I don't think people are born wanting to discriminate against others because of their disability or ability. I think that's learned. And we need to unlearn it, and we need to unlearn it fast. So I do have lots of hope. But I also recognize that this is going to be my life's work and the life and so many others work and we need to press on because the task is is large, and it's complex, but it's also incredibly important. Michael Hingson 1:06:10Yeah, well, it is. And I, I would say anyone who listening, I hope appreciates what you say and what you do. And I hope that we all learn something from it. Have you written any books or anything on the subject? Peter Bacon 1:06:24God not written any books that haven't written yet? admittance, ready to write an anthology of my policies and missions will be a bit dry? Maybe I'll write about one day? Michael Hingson 1:06:34Well, I, Michael Hingson 1:06:35I hope you do, because I think it would be well worth having. And it's certainly well worth reading. But I want to thank you for being with us. If people want to reach out to you and engage in some way, how can they do that? Peter Bacon 1:06:49Well, email me. So that's Peter bacon, at Disability employment.org.au. Michael Hingson 1:06:56And as P e t e r B a c o n Peter Bacon 1:07:00like the delicious breakfast food. Right? Michael Hingson 1:07:04So just Peter bacon disability employment.org.au. There you go. Well, I hope people will reach out. And I hope that everyone got a lot out of today I did. I always like to talk about these things. And it helps me always put more things in perspective. And I get to learn what other people are thinking. So I find it very valuable. So thank you for being here with us. And thank you for listening. And I hope all of you out there like this. Please give us a five star rating wherever you're listening. We value your ratings and your reviews. So please do it. If you'd like to reach out to me and have any thoughts or opinions I want to get them from you please email me at Michaelhi M i c h a e l h i at accessibe A c c e s s i b e.com Or go to our podcast page www dot Michael hingson.com/podcast. And Michael Hingson is mi c h a e l h i n g s o n all one word. Again please give us a five star rating we value that. We'd love to hear from you. And I hope that you'll be with us the next time we do unstoppable mindset and Peter one last time. I want to really thank you for being here. This has been wonderful and we really appreciate you coming on and Sheldon from accessiBe finding you for us. Peter Bacon 1:08:26Thanks, Mike. I appreciate that. Michael Hingson 1:08:32You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com . AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

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This is our first opportunity to hear from someone who has extensive experience in the hotel and tourism industry. Rocco Bova grew up in Italy, but always wanted to see and experience the world. While he left home at the age of 18, he returned, but at the age of 24 began his journey that lead to a 25-year involvement in the hotel industry. From Europe to Middle East, Asia, India, Africa, the Caribbean and Mexico Rocco held many positions in various hotel organizations. Now he is a consultant to various hotel companies to help them grow and cope with all the changes that Covid and other forces has caused. We get to hear about Rocco’s concept about how to reform much of the hotel industry by creating an organization called “Humble House”. He will tell us about it. I can say that from a business point of view, his idea is an interesting and good one to explore. Our conversation not only covers the hotel and tourism industry, but it also talks about relevant and good business processes and concept. I especially love our last five minutes that summarizes our conversation and puts all Rocco’s concepts into a wonderful perspective and good summary. About the Guest: Rocco is an experienced hotelier with over 25 years of international experience having worked for some of the best international brands in 11 countries, from Europe to Middle East, Asia, India, Africa, the Caribbean and Mexico. Educated in Italy, the UK and most recently with Cornell University in Singapore, Rocco is an avid learner and continues his education investigating online to keep up to date with the latest global tourism trends. He started his career in Dubai with Jumeirah Hotels & Resorts, worked with Four Seasons, Hilton, Aman Resorts, IHG, LUX Resorts, Starwood (now Marriott), and other independent companies managing world class, luxury hotels. Rocco contributes actively as an influencer of the hospitality industry through social medias, writing articles in digital blogs, speaker in several conferences and podcasts, visiting lecturer at hotel schools and has been a Board Member of pro bono organizations like Hoteliers Guild, GSN Planet and the World Wellness Weekend. After years of brewing his idea and mastering the art of hospitality, Rocco has decided to put all his experience and knowledge into a revolutionary hospitality concept with a unique business model and begun working on ''My Humble House'' concept. Rocco is still actively working in the industry and he is currently in Mexico, consulting for various developers of boutique hotels and master planned communities. Ways to connect with Rocco: https://www.linkedin.com/in/roccobova/ https://www.linkedin.com/company/my-humble-house/?viewAsMember=true *About the Host:Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children’s Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association’s 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.comhttps://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/https://twitter.com/mhingsonhttps://www.youtube.com/user/mhingsonhttps://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ accessiBe Linkshttps://accessibe.com/https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBehttps://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can also subscribe in your favorite podcast app. Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts. Transcription Notes:**

Michael Hingson 00:00Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us. Michael Hingson 01:21Well, thank you for being with us. Once again. Welcome to unstoppable mindset. We're glad you're here. Today we get to interview someone who's in or who's been involved in an industry. We haven't talked about before Rocco Bova, who was a hotelier for 25 years. He is a consultant in the industry. So we get to talk all about travel, tourism and hotels and all sorts of things like that today with Rocco. I know he's got a lot of thoughts and a lot of things to discuss with us. So looking forward to this a whole lot. Well, Rocco, welcome to unstoppable mindset. We're glad you're here. Mike, Rocco Bova 01:58thank you so much for inviting me. I like this is unstoppable mindset. You know, this is one of the things why it caught my attention. And when we connect on LinkedIn, so I'm glad, I'm glad and honored to be invited on your show today. Michael Hingson 02:15And you are down in Mexico right now, right? Rocco Bova 02:18It's correct. I live in Merida Yucatan. So it's your it's on the southeast peninsula of Mexico, let's say about three hours drive from Cancun, just to give a bit of geography so that everybody is clear on where I where I'm based. Michael Hingson 02:38So in the winter, do you get any kind of snow? Rocco Bova 02:43Normally, by let me tell you that yesterday for the first night, I felt called a nice so we went down probably to about 22 Celsius, which is which is kind of winter for us what temperature 22 Celsius, Michael Hingson 03:01or 22 Celsius is pretty warm. It is pretty Rocco Bova 03:03warm. But it's cold. Because when you're used to sleep with air conditioning because outside the 36 Celsius definitely is cold for us. Yeah. Michael Hingson 03:16Yeah, that's that's a good point. Now just so that people understand. If you're listening to Rocco, that is not a Mexican accent because he's from Italy. Rocco Bova 03:28Absolutely. I was born in Italy, Mike but I left Italy very young. I was only 18 When I left my village in the south of Italy is a little village called Sheila. In fact, I live in the Strait of Sicily. So from my home, hometown, I can see the point that the tip of Sicily on the other side of the of the water is a beautiful place. But when I was growing up, I said to myself, I'm not going to stay here I want to explore the world I want to travel for as far as I can in things God I've been in few places. I'm very happy that you know, I decided to leave my house, my home. Very young. Right? Michael Hingson 04:09What was it like growing up in Italy? And what was it like for you growing up as a child and you went to school and all them have a pretty normal childhood or what Rocco Bova 04:20I am proud to say that probably I had the best childhood that one can have. So you know, I was raised by wonderful parents. I have three are the three brothers sister. We have four of us all together. And you know, we love each other. The family grew obviously with nephews and nieces and solid support. But I think the most important is also the environment where you grew up, is the friends that you grew up with. You know your circle, uh, you know the influence your life and eventually your future you know, so, you know, my, my childhood and you And also my teenage I was, I was growing, you know, the era of you probably the 80s, you know, between 80s and 90s. Those Those years were probably the peak of the, of the century. And, you know, I was lucky to enjoy a certain lifestyle, you know, during this period of time. So, you know, I also was inspired by certain people, you know, that may sound stupid, but even Rocky, you know, you know, we're watching these kind of movies, you know, we're very motivating, very inspiring, you know, that even a normal person can achieve great things. Yeah, through Air Force and hard work. And, you know, that's, that's basically what my life is about. I knew I could do it, it was just a matter of being focused and really work really hard for what I wanted to do. So here I am, after leaving in 11 countries and working for more than 25 companies, you know, some of the best company in the hospitality industry. So what can I say? Michael Hingson 06:07What did your parents think of you wanting to leave and explore the world? Rocco Bova 06:14You know, actually, my dad was very scared, you know, may rest in peace is he was always very worried about me, and it was sticky or rock or you got to do, you still don't you don't have a career you don't have, you know, I didn't study University. I went to university later in life, but I didn't study when I was young, you know, so I went to when I finished my high school, I went straight to work. And my mum was also you know, kind of, you know, stay in Italy don't go away, you know, where are you going? And then suddenly, you know, my life obviously changed. Because, you know, I was so stuck, unstoppable. That, you know, I just felt that everything was achievable, you know, just through effort and an hour. And, and yes, indeed, I achieved what I wanted. And, you know, my mom now she actually she told me, you know, it was good, a good a good choice that you left Italy, and you went to follow your dreams. Michael Hingson 07:10So she, she now feels that you made a pretty good choice. Definitely. Well, that's pretty cool. So she, she supports you and are your, your siblings in Italy still? Or where are they? Rocco Bova 07:26Yeah, yeah, the entire family stayed in Italy. No, but nobody was crazy. As we you know, the first time I left my hometown, I bought a one way ticket, and I only had a few $100 in my pocket. So you know, I'm kind of like the risk. Let's put it this way. So in addition Michael Hingson 07:44to doing all the things that you've done, have you ever have you started a family? Are you married or have any children or anything? Yes, Rocco Bova 07:51I have two beautiful kids, you know, they're now older, you know, they're not children anymore. So my son is 20 and my daughter's 19. And married for about 28 years or with my wife, so very, very happy to have achieved also, my personal life. Michael Hingson 08:10Being married for 28 years is certainly good. There's so many couples that just don't make it that far. So I am really glad to hear you continuing to do that. My Rocco Bova 08:21wife My wife says that, you know, we kind of museums couples, that are not many like us nowadays. Michael Hingson 08:29We were married for two years when my wife passed away last November so we I appreciate it. Definitely Rocco Bova 08:36yeah, sorry to hear that. But you know 40 years of big my milestone definitely. Yeah, a Michael Hingson 08:44lot of memories and definitely enjoy it. Well, I'm I'm really glad that you're you're doing so well. And you have two good kids, what are they going to do with their life where they're going to go off and explore the world too. Rocco Bova 08:53It looks like they are because my son is studying hospitality management. And I can see already are kind of on a right path to travel the world and experience so many things. My daughter she's studying marketing. So for her is still kind of first year study. But yeah, I'm sure they both speak four languages. You know, what, what can stop the nothing really? Michael Hingson 09:20And that's great. What does your wife do? Rocco Bova 09:23My wife she's a personal coach and she's a healer. So she helps people to get better in their life both from a physical spiritual and mental way so she she's she's been studying this both as a self learner but also through many different courses as she did in different country from India to Mauritius, and really more recently, Mexico. Maybe, Michael Hingson 09:54maybe we should explore her coming on the podcast sometime. Rocco Bova 09:58Sure. Why not? Michael Hingson 09:59We'd love to talk to, we'd love to talk to coaches. I will sell it about Well, so what did you do? So you left home? And why did you leave home? Did you have a job that you went to? Or why? Rocco Bova 10:12Believe it or not, I did not have a job when I left when I left to London. I mean, I was still in Italy I was working at at the time, you know, I was 24. And then one one evening, I meet this Brazilian guy, who tells me at the end of the evening work in this restaurant, he tells me Look what you want to do in life. And I was not expecting this question. But when I told him, You know, I want to travel the world. I don't know exactly what I want to do. But one thing I know, I want to travel the world. And he said to me, why don't you come to London? I can help you. You know, so I didn't, I didn't let him finish the sentence because I told me this No joke, I'm coming. And he's now how old? Michael Hingson 10:55How old? Were you then? Rocco Bova 10:5724. Michael Hingson 10:59So what did you do from 18 to 24. Rocco Bova 11:02I went to army, I went one year to university, but I dropped out after after 10 months. And then the other two years, I was working. So I did some work, obviously, you know, I had to earn my life. And you know, I didn't want to be dependent on my, on my parents. So I worked a couple of years. And and so when I came back to Italy, you know, to my hometown for the summer, I met this Brazilian guy. And so when he told me that he was going to help me to get to London, I say what I'm going so I put together the all the money that I had, which was those days, the equivalent to maybe $600. And, and, you know, I bought a one way ticket, and I went to London with a friend, we went there, we didn't speak English, we're talking you know, with what with our hands like most Italian do, but we literally we couldn't talk in any other language or the hands. So it was funny. But then eventually we reach out to the house of this of this friend. And a few days later, he came and he took us to, to Headhunter you know, like a lady that she was placing young young students or young people to go to work in different restaurants and bars in London. And in a matter of hours, we got our first job so we went to work in this Italian restaurant, during which time I was able to go to school learn English, and then met my wife and then the rest of history because you know I then I started to get to get to understand that the hospitality world and how big it was and how many opportunities they were in not just restaurant but hotels and in the real estate and investment company and everything spa wellness, you know, the the the the industry was so big that I said to myself, you know, I need to study now. So I went back to school at the age of 28. I got my diploma. And then my first job was in London in Jumeirah Beach hotel in Dubai. And then from Jumeirah Beach, Dubai, I went to four seasons in Singapore from four seasons Singapore, I went to the Hilton in Kuala Lumpur. And from there I went to a man resort in New Delhi. Then I went to the Intercontinental Bustan palace in Muscat in Oman, and then I went to looks or tells a resort in Mauritius, followed by St. Regis Mauritius. From there I came back to, to the to the Caribbean with Aman resort for the second time. And then finally I landed in Mexico, where I've been living now for the past several years. Very lovely. Michael Hingson 13:48And your family just went with you wherever you went. They Rocco Bova 13:53went with me. They follow me for this 28 years, you know, so my wife, she said to me now that's enough. I know. I want to stop traveling. I'm done with traveling. I'm done with packing and unpacking. Yeah. And so now we've been living in Mexico for the past seven years. And to be honest, actually, I also like Mexico is a beautiful country with nice people. So yeah, why not? is a big country anyway, it will take me maybe another 10 years to explore everything. So I'm sure I'll be busy. So Michael Hingson 14:25you're you're clearly obviously enjoying being in Mexico, but you're not currently in the hotel industry directly. Right. Rocco Bova 14:35Well, what I'm doing Mike now over the past three years I've been when I left the operation as such, if you want to say that, and I started to work as a consultant, so I've been working for different companies in different parts of Mexico, but I also work in Dominican Republic for one hotel group then in Puerto Rico, or another group. I've been doing some My remote work for Saudi Arabia, Bali. And, you know, it seems that something is going to happen maybe in Belize. So I can proudly say that I've been busy, very busy actually, even though I never worked as a consultant, you know, normally I consult for one company, which is my employer. But I've been, I've been doing up to seven clients at the same time. You know, last year, for example, I had 1.7 clients working at the same time, you know, so try to remember everything for each of the, each of them was not so easy, but I managed, it was, it was fun, is a difference from being in operation, of course. And that is as as, as interesting because you learn so much from a different angle, now, not just operation and guests. But also you learn about, you know, development, architecture, design, brand, rebranding some time, you know, construction, concept, development, many other things, which, before I was not involved, and also to finish that I also work directly with owners or investors. So that's also very interesting point. Michael Hingson 16:16So it's a kind of a different environment for you then than it was, but the fact that you have all the hotel knowledge must be something that people look for, and they hire you because they value the expertise that you have. Rocco Bova 16:33In fact, actually, my tagline on my LinkedIn page is actually lockable. Or tell experts. Michael Hingson 16:40There you go hotel. And I can Rocco Bova 16:43say that, yes, I do have quite some expertise, I've been working in this industry for over 30 years, I do educate myself everyday for at least two, two hours a day, every day. And, and I keep up to date with the trends with the evolution of the industry. And, you know, I tried to anticipate what's coming up, because in order for you to be ready for what is happening, you need to, you know, be prepared or, or even know what is coming next. You know, trends are predictable. To be frank, if you are, if you're a good observer, and a good listener to what's happening to other parts of the world, eventually will come to your part of the world so, so I keep an ear open always every single day. That's, that's what is my advantage. So Michael Hingson 17:35what do you do for two hours every day to keep your education up? Rocco Bova 17:38Well, there are, there are so many platforms where you can on a daily basis, you know, I'm talking about digital magazine, newsletters, websites. LinkedIn itself is a great platform where you can actually learn, you know, the news, new hotel, opening new calls to opening a new company, forming new brand. So it's, it's, it's a great platform, and it's all free. You know, those days, you know, to 30 years ago, we had to go to a library and there was no internet, you have to buy books, or you have to buy a magazine to learn, you know, you have to spend money. Now, it's all free. You know, it's all. So they're available. So it's just a matter of 1pm focus in knowing where to go and search for those information. So what do you think Michael Hingson 18:29the hotel industry has? Become? What do you what kinds of changes? Do you think in the hotel or in the travel and tourism industry in general? How has it changed over the years since you started working there? Rocco Bova 18:45Well, nothing has changed until something happened about three years ago, to be honest, everything was well working pretty well to be frank. And in the industry was going through a time of was going through a transformation was a positive transformation. And then the pandemic arrived, Mike and in then everyone thought that, you know, after the pandemic, we all going to be friends and we all going to be closer, we all going to be hugging each other. Then suddenly, I can tell you that it's actually not like this anymore. I am observing more and more actually, that the industry is becoming colder. It's becoming a lot more focus on bottom line is becoming a lot more focused on business, just being a business, hospitality. This is also business, but first is about people are being hospitable. And I think we're losing a little bit about this value of working in our industry. It's actually being hospitable, genuinely But I understand, you know, people lost a lot of money, you know, some people lost their jobs. And, you know, we lost hundreds of 1000s, if not millions of people, great people working in the hospitality industry, during the pandemic, that network will never come back, ever, because what happened was, you know, the most company, they got rid of, you know, something that they thought it was going to be a cost, you know, which is the payroll, call it the payroll, but you know, there are people. So the first call was to reduce the number of people working for the company, because you know, that we can save our, our business, but they didn't think about the, the effects of this decision. So, guess what, you know, now we're struggling to find talent, they're struggling to find committed people, that they actually want to stay with a company for a long, long time. And when I say long term, I know I don't mean to say for 10 years, but give it at least one year, you know, there's a huge turnover at the moment, which is nearly unmanageable. You know, in the old days, we knew that turnover in hospitality industry was big, but now is bigger. And I feel that most companies are not doing much to reduce down to control or to or to influence, you know, in in a positive way. And probably, this was also one of the reasons why I decided to get into consultants, maybe? Michael Hingson 21:29Why do you think that is, though? Why do you think that? We, we have such a turnover? Do you think it's just because of the coldness of the industry? And more important? How do you think we reverse that? Rocco Bova 21:44Well, the biggest reason is actually that if if people don't care anymore, they think they say, you know, if you don't treat me, well, I just go somewhere else. And there are jobs available, there's plenty of jobs available. So companies are desperate for talent, you know, most most of the time, the the, the recruitment process is not the same as it was before they immediately they will take you because they need people, they need legs in the hands to get the job done. And on the other hand, there is also a salary factor, you know, people they say, Oh, well, if I were there, they can pay me 20% more, you know, let me give it a try, maybe it's good, maybe it's not good. And if it's not good, I can change again. So, there is lack of like a commitment. And and there is a focus on earning more basically. So, what do go ahead? No, and I will say, you know, even if most company they have, they have increased the pay, because they did they have to do it, you know, there was no other way, you know, with increase of price for cost, the cost of living and solid support inflation. So, you know, they were obliged to increase salary by 1020, even in some places, even up to 30%. But even with that has more changed. So the commitment has not changed. So that means that people will change again, if they feel that are not properly treated in a place. So, you are asking me, okay, what is the solution to that? I don't know if there is a solution. But I personally am starting to work on a personal project called My humble house. And this happened actually, during the pandemic. So three years ago, I started to work on a on a hotel concept on a business model, that I think it could be the solution to this problem. And it's something very simple, you know, actually is not so complicated. So I said to myself, What if I was part of the business? What if I was responsible for the success of the financial business of my company that employs me. So I started to work in a business model that involves profit sharing with the employees. And then I started to develop this concept, I wrote about 60 pages of the business plan. And I started to share it with a lot of people about 300 plus people around the world. And guess what? I receive the compliment, on compliment and more compliments from more people all over the world. I open I open a LinkedIn page actually where I have 4000 followers already. I was invited to several podcasts like yours, I was invited to write even articles on on business magazine, of focusing on on hospitality. And from that, I gather that there is a need for something like this. I'm not saying that this is the the only solution. But I feel that there is definitely a need for something like this. And, you know, by the comments that I hear from different people, talking about, you know, senior people and Not to give out, you know, the waiter or the or the housekeeper, I'm talking about senior C level executive that they all told me, Rocco, this is a great idea. You know, when can you start one? But now I'm at the point that I'm looking actually for investors and watch this space Mike, you know, you might hear my humble ow soon around your corner. Michael Hingson 25:21So what's the idea how does it work? Rocco Bova 25:25It works very simply is hotel, you know this, this is this concept, I cannot change it, you know, I will tell you hotel, it will always be a hotel. But the point is, is the business model. So, generally, I will tell you know, when he first opens, you know, it takes about two to three years to get to break even point. But the business model for this for my humble life, is actually to join a hotel room with residences. So we all know that Brandon residence is nothing new for season, do it. Ritz Carlton do it Mandarin Oriental do it. So it's a proven business model, which means that if I have 25 room, and I have 15 residences that I can sell, and I invest, let's say $20 million, I have 15 residences, maybe each resident, I can sell it for a million dollar each, by the time I sell the residence, I already gained 15 $15 million, that can help me get to the return on the investment much faster, instead of waiting seven years, I may get into three years, the moment you get a real return on the investment, investors are very happy. But also, you get into the breakeven point faster because you have an inventory that is more efficient. I like to remind you that to manage 25 rooms, or to manager 40 rooms, you actually need the same number of staff, you don't need to double your staff because you're doubling your inventory of rooms. So when you are you become a bit of an efficient business is easier to get to your breakeven point, the more you start making profit, you can share this profit with your employees, what would an employee feel a if I earn more, if my boss earn more, or the company I work for earns more, I can earn more too. And, you know, that generates more commitment, longer term commitment. Honesty, you know, people actually do their job instead of wasting time. Because they know if they're more efficient, they actually become better in in, in, in, in business, you know, people that they're selling the business, for example, salespeople, they actually do sell because they know if if they sell more, they're gonna learn more. So everything becomes so much more organic. In the end, everyone will become part of the success of the business. That's why I'm so convinced that you know, profit sharing is actually the the future of the business model of this industry. Maybe every industry, you know, why? Why only few people need to make lots of money. You know, I think that the cake is big enough, and everyone can benefit. Michael Hingson 28:13So you think that by adding the profit sharing component, that that's the kind of thing that will keep employees and that they won't just jump ship, because they think they can get a better deal somewhere else that profit sharing is a major game changer. Rocco Bova 28:32That's one of the reason why is not just money. Remember that also, you need to have great leadership, you need to have a company that cares for you, you need to have a proper amenities for the team members, you need to have a great product and also for guests so that they want to come back or at least they want to recommend it. So is a number of things that you have to have. But you know, when you when you devise a new business, you devise or sort of the longer term, you don't devise a new business just for the sake of just going over a few years, and then it goes down or sell it to somebody else. Now the idea is to start the business for the long term. So yes, the ingredients are there. Hotels have been around for hundreds of years. So it's not easy to do. And in new brands are needed, because new generation are coming. And this sustainability, let's call it this way is not just about respect of the environment, but it's also respect of the people and also making the business sustainable for the long term. If the business is not sustainable for the long term, there's not sustainability at all. Basically, Michael Hingson 29:45where does the guest fit in all this? So you've talked about the the investors, you've talked about the sea level managers and you've talked about the employees and all that. How do the guests influence all About Rocco Bova 30:00I love this question I think is really spot on whether the guests fit. So imagine I am a guest I'm going to hotel, and I feel team members with a beautiful, genuine smile. The first thought that comes to my mind is a this guy must be very happy here. I'm gonna ask him, Hey, why are you so happy? Guess what, you know the employee can only say Hey, this is a great company, they take care of me. They look after me. They even share the profit. Imagine the guests reaction what the company shares of it with you as an employee. And the employee will say yes, they do actually, you know, every month or every year I at the end of the year, if the company is profitable, we get a share of this profit. So imagine imagine the reaction of the guest. Well, you may say to me, Well, maybe they will avoid tipping the the individual but the employee when the employee is actually so happy they'll provide the best service ever to a guest and the guest when they see the company takes care of their of their employees. They return in they recommend why I'm saying this because I also work for company that they take very good care of their employees I work for full season I work for Jumeirah I work for my resort, I work for Lux hotels, resorts I worked for a company that even the worst situation was scenario they took care of the their team member first. And guess what, they're still there. If they were not so good. Jumeirah will no longer be there. If four seasons not taking care of their team members, they wouldn't be there. So I know for a fact that that taking care of the team members definitely work for the business. And for the guests. Michael Hingson 31:54It seems to me that you know, of course, that's true for for any company. And I don't know whether it's a relatively new concept that you're introducing to the hospitality industry, but in general, certainly, employees, and everything clicks better. When people are happier, they're having fun. I know that I get to observe a lot of airline personnel as I travel. And I mainly use American because I've been using them for 42 years now, although I think that the airline industry has created a lot of challenges, and is not what it was 40 years ago. But I know that when I travel on Southwest Airlines, the employees seem to at least the last time I was on the flight. And the last several times I was on a Southwest flight to having a lot more fun. And they seem more happier than on any other airline that I've experienced. And they liked that. And they that reaction flows down to the passengers on the airplane. Rocco Bova 33:05See, I'm not I'm not I'm not inventing anything here, you know, it transpires to the to the customers, when team members, they're very happy or they feel comfortable being around the workplace. You can see immediately when a when a team members is not happy. Because they're they they drag their feet because they're moody because they say they don't even say good morning to you. Would you stay in a place where people don't care about you as a customer? Of course not? Of course not. So it's a reaction is you know, and a lot of people they say, Well, why do I need to waste money on training? Why do I need to waste money on benefit for the team members? But, you know, why not? If you don't do it, what is going to have? What is the worst case scenario that you close business, you close, you shut down because your business not doing well enough. So, you know, I'm Dave, I'm very careful in choosing to work for certain companies, you know, and I am very, very big, analytic, you know, when it comes to deciding whether I work for a company or not. And sometimes I prefer to step out of a company, if I feel that this is not for me, you know, I have nothing to lose. I actually have a lot to lose, if I stay. I prefer to step out. Well, Michael Hingson 34:27if they're not willing to utilize your expertise, I can understand that and it's unfortunate that we do see so much of all of that happening and the pandemic hasn't helped. Because, as you said, now people want more money and they want a lot of things. But again, is that really it or is it more that they want a really great feeling workplace to be involved with Rocco Bova 34:59You know, when I, when I think Mike is not, you know, they're just new generation, you know, I belong to Generation X, you know, that's, you know, 53 years old now. And I feel like a millennial, but you know, I'm a Generation X by age spoiled this way. And starting already from my generation, I'm starting to be more more more aware of my environment. And it's not just a matter of, oh, I need to work for this brand, because it's the best brand in the world. All right, you know, I need to work for this hotel, because they won so many awards. No, no, no, first and most important thing for me is to work. Who are the, who are the people behind this company? Who do I report to? You know, what is my relationship with these people? What am I going to get? Not just what they're gonna get out of me? What am I gonna get from them in in in the choice becomes smaller because obviously you start to eliminate immediately your if you are, say an expert, let's say you know, in reading, you know, the situation you can understand if this company is for you or not, by reading the people you're going to use, you are interviewed by for example. So definitely is something that is different now. Now talking about the new generation, the new generation, they might be careless, you know, they say, Okay, let's give it a try. There's nothing to lose. Okay, they try one they stay a few months, then they are, you know, what, no, this is not for me, I'm going resigned and go somewhere else, and then they go somewhere else and they go somewhere else. Because as I said, you know, jobs are plenty at the moment. So there is there is there are many opportunities and people you know, even even people that are tech, tech knowledgeable, you know, they can even work from home or you can do something online, they can program something maybe an application and they can earn some money very quickly, you know, they can just work on Uber or something like that. So there are many ways to earn money today. You know, it's not just about having a full time job. Michael Hingson 37:13Right? How do you think Airbnb has affected the hospitality industry? That was an interesting question. I thought I would spring up and just see what you thought. Rocco Bova 37:27I Lloyd Michael, you know, when when Airbnb grew up so quickly, you know, orderlies were scared oh my god, what are we going to do now? You know, these Airbnb guys that they broke everything you know, there was there was no longer hotels only and now that also homes the you know, what, what are we going to do? We're going to lose so much business. Did we hotels keep opening, new brands keep sprouting. The room count around the world keeps growing the population of the world keeps growing too by the way so we are eight plus billion people right now in this planet and the likelihood is that we're going to keep growing even even to more people in that in the next 1015 20 years. So the scare of being affected by Airbnb to me is it was unnecessary. And n is proven by the fact that actually Airbnb pushed hotels to get better. So why do I need to go to an Airbnb and not hotel so it tells the need to start to get the game up because Airbnb was getting the gap very quickly. Airbnb lately started to lose grounds they became too commercial they became they grew too much and there's literally no control so just room rental for one night or two nights or whatever. I'm actually happy that is is some cities like New York Venice you know Rome Berlin and sort of support they're starting to put rules because it is impossible to get a normal rental in city center so that was not good also for normal people like me and you you know if I want to rent an apartment in the center of London or New York or Boston, you know, I don't need to spend $10,000 a month you know, I want to spend the normal a normal rent which is reasonable. And so I'm glad that you know some rules are starting to come into place for Airbnb, because in case you don't know probably you do. Airbnb was was not born to rent a room for one night. Airbnb was, was born to rent a room for students are long term, but not shorter. You know, and when we say short term, it definitely was not one night or two. He was for a month or two months, maybe 45 days but good and Airbnb became another hotel another way to be a hotel without having the permit the licenses, paying taxes and so on and so forth. So, from their point of view, I think that some regulation, they should have come even much earlier. I don't know why it took so long. Michael Hingson 40:15And I think it makes sense to to deal with something like an Airbnb for long term rentals, because that's not what hotels typically are designed for. Rocco Bova 40:27No, no, wait for that. You have service apartment. Yeah. Which is, which is like a hotel, but it's now is for serve for long term rent, you know, you have proper amenities for long term rental. Michael Hingson 40:40Or you have Airbnb, and that's fine. Personally, for me, I certainly wouldn't want to I, I like when I go somewhere to use a hotel room because I don't want to take on the responsibility of preparing food or doing other things like that. But I also know I'm only staying for one or two nights or just a few nights. And I've been in long term rental apartment situations, and that's fine, but that's different, too. So when I when I travel, I just think that it works a whole lot better for me to be in a, in a hotel environment. I know when my wife wife was alive. Since she was in a wheelchair, it also was a lot more relevant for her because most Airbnb type houses that were made available for rental, we're not necessarily overly wheelchair accessible. And there's nothing that makes that happen, or there hasn't been Rocco Bova 41:38That's correct. That's correct. But on the other hand, we also are in a situation where even Airbnb is starting to transform themselves because they reach a point of stabilizing so what is going to be next for Airbnb as well, they cannot remain what Airbnb was 10 years ago, they need to start to innovate as well, I feel that that's why they're losing ground of it. Airbnb, I think that they do not innovate enough. Since the past five, seven years, they have not changed their business model. You know, this, they tried to make this experience so you know, leave like a lot, you know, leave like local stuff. Therefore, this is not for them, because they don't manage this, you know, somebody else does it for them. I mean, I just feel that Airbnb is probably time for them to do to shake the tree a little bit, you know, and get something new. Michael Hingson 42:36We'll see what they do. Rocco Bova 42:39Absolutely. Michael Hingson 42:39So you've talked a lot about the talent pool and that people know they can make a lot more money. Sometimes if they go somewhere else, or they feel they can where it's going to be the end of all that is it? Is it a spiral that's out of control and is never going to change? Or what do you think will happen these are Rocco Bova 43:02the next two years I think is gonna wait is where we're going to see the worst part of our industry I have a feeling that what's happening right now is gonna only gonna get worse for at least another couple of years. During this two years, I hope that the industry is going to do something and and I hope that they understand that that if we don't do anything, it's just going to get worse and worse. So maybe this is also why this battle you know, my personal battle of getting this off the ground you know, this humble house project to the you know, which may never take off but as far as I'm concerned is already off the ground because a lot of people is already asking me for and it's very curious. So the curiosity for me that means that there is a need for for change in the business model of the industry. I also feel that you know that small investors they should be encouraged. Now when I say startups, I don't mean startups only in technology we should also encourage in help young investasi naturally get into independent hotels rather than be part of a big chain. So there is a trend right now for example, you know that more and more people they want to experience an independent hotel and no big brands that's why big brands they keep churning new brands every every month because customers want something new you know but getting out a new brand from Marriott is just gonna be another Marriott I'm sorry to say that I don't think Marietta can really make a new brand you know they just make another Marriott which is called something else. But it still is a marriage so is the ultimate so isn't a continental. So for as long as the we don't help people you know and the young investors for example, young age first getting into business, you know, I think it's gonna be very difficult to create something innovative really? Michael Hingson 45:07Well, when you look at, let's say, Hilton, you've got Hilton Garden Inn, you got Hampton Inn and Suites and you've got Embassy Suites, for example, and they're different but it all comes under the Hilton brand. Every Embassy Suites looks alike. I like Embassy Suites because of some of the amenities but is it really a major innovation I guess that's a subject that people could probably debate although you Rocco Bova 45:35know and all these brands obviously they they they observed there was a segment and it was a niche market I was looking for that kind of product that's why they created it which is fine. But can we can we really make something really unique you know really cool. You know, I think I think the last the last cool brand you know in hospitality was probably 30 years ago you know when the W hotels cave and then one where maybe you know this Ian striker for example, you know, it was kind of innovative in in creating this lifestyle cool vibe, you know, young models and Romanian women you know, going into this bars lively with school, live music, but you know, from there everybody coffee, coffee, coffee based, you know, it was not really innovation Any, any, any longer. So I think, I hope that there will be some some kind of change. So, yeah, the glamping is now coming up as a, you know, one of these hot topics at the moment. So, you know, cabins and tents and whatever, you know, everything that is luxury, you know, their conditioning, and they have all the amenities like a hotel, but they're in the middle of the jungle, this is also kind of new, so it's only five, six years old, this has become kind of very hot topic. But you know, let's see, what's what what else is gonna is gonna happen. That's why I say personally, I didn't want to reinvent the hotel. concept as such, I wanted to reinvent personally, you know, in my humble house, the business model more than the concept, because hotel concept at the end of the day is still the same, you know, no matter what you do is glamping? Or when is the luxury of big box Hotel? Michael Hingson 47:20There's nothing wrong with that. No, Rocco Bova 47:23absolutely. Absolutely. Michael Hingson 47:25It's it's the other parts of the infrastructure, as you're talking about that are an issue almost like the talent pool in general. What do you think the the hotel industry is going to have to do? And maybe the other way to look at it is what do you think that the talent is going to have to do to change to address some of the issues that we're facing now? And you said that you think it'll get worse over the next two years? What do you think has to change or will change that will kind of, hopefully bring things back to a little bit more even keel? Rocco Bova 48:00Well, one, the first we need to get back to school, you know, let's look at the school system. Michael Hingson 48:06I was gonna ask about that. Go ahead. You know, Rocco Bova 48:10if you go to hotel school, what are they going to teach you first? And second? Who are the teachers teaching you? Yeah, you know, most of most teachers, probably the last job was 10 years ago, 15 years ago, then they got into teaching, and then everyone went back to work. So they're teaching you something that they've learned 15 years ago, which is already obsolete, completely obsolete. You know, tell schools normally the same student, every every year, or your two years, they send them to six months internship. If I were in the school system, I will send the teachers every year, at least for one month, back to work to understand the same what really is going on in the industry, firsthand, no, through Google or books or whatever investigation, no, no, to leave exactly what's happening in the industry. The second thing, I think that the programs are also, you know, they don't teach students on how to get into work immediately. I mean, probably some school they do Vietnam, but but they don't tell you the they don't tell you real stuff. They only tell you the fluffy stuff, you know, what is beautiful and what works. So, you know, you can meet a lot of people just so true. But let's talk about the real life story. You know, let's talk about you know, let's teach young students or how to make a choice between a m prime P. And people a MP will be you know, how can you choose the best people to work for, you know, one of the things that you need to look when you join a company, not just the brand, and how many awards and how many stars they have under their belt. But what are the leaders behind, you know, so important nowadays. And last but not the least, we should lower the expectation issue. You know, I think that many schools, they give you expectations of you know, when you come out from here, you become a manager? Well, I mean, it's, you know, I remember I made something public some six months ago on LinkedIn. There was a Swissotel school which, you know, with their tagline, Thomas, a student, leave as a manager. Wait a minute, oh, my God, I obviously made it public. I was, I had, like, 22,000 likes or something like this with this post, I was very popular. And, and I also was approached by the school itself, you know, and they told me, Rocco? No, we mean that we didn't want to say this specifically. But I said, Okay, well, what is that you want to say, you know, be honest with yourself and with the students, you cannot promise you cannot over promise and say, No, of course, you come to us and you become a manager doesn't work like that, you know, you have to be honest, also, you know, with, with young young people, because to become a manager, it takes time to become a manager takes knowledge, you have to learn even more when you get out of school. And you have to go through rough time to understand that you know, how to become a manager. So, you know, I remember 113 years ago, four years ago, before the pandemic, you know, I had this student from a very prestigious Hotel School in Switzerland. And he said to me, I want to be a consultant. And I told him, okay, let's talk about in 25 years, then I can tell you how to be a consultant. And he said to me Why 25 years, I said, because he took me 25 years to become a consultant. Now today, I can say, I can consult anyone because I've got the experience. But 25 years ago, I didn't know how to consult. Google doesn't tell me how to consult chat. GPT doesn't tell me how to consult someone, people, they want to know exactly what to do with their business, you know, as a consultant, and my success depends on what I say to my client. So anyway, didn't you didn't like that, and then talk to me ever since. But that's okay. Well, the other part about Michael Hingson 52:17it is that we live in a world that has been taught to demand instant gratification instant things. And the reality is, it doesn't work that way. And you know that and I know that there are so many people who don't understand that, you know, they come to our school as a student and leave as a manager, what are you teaching them about management? How are you doing it? And, you know, if they're just doing the same old stuff, they're not certainly teaching someone how to truly be a manager, because a manager isn't just someone who knows how to run a hotel. But a manager has to learn the skills of how to deal with employees how to deal with the people who come to the hotel as guests, what what do you do? How do you do it? And how do you make people feel welcome on all sides? Rocco Bova 53:12Absolutely, in, you know, the most difficult part in our industry, or possibly any industry is actually dealing with people, you know, both customers and employees. But in our industry, I say more our industry, because our industry is made of people, you know, we deal with human failing, every single moment, every single is we're dealing with people feelings. So the way you talk to people, the tone of voice, your body language, your attitude, your mood, influence everything and everyone around you. So if you don't know how to control that, how to manage yourself first, how can you manage others? Impossible. Even less consulting? Come on, let's get real. You know, so, Michael Hingson 53:56you've said that we've lost millions of people, because of the pandemic and so on, who will never come back? How do we work to get some of those people back? You Rocco Bova 54:07see, Michael, again, I go back to the title of your or your podcast unstoppable and that not everybody is unstoppable. Not everybody was actually able to have this stamina to continue no matter what. Not everybody was able to come over fear of not knowing what's going to happen to them and to their family and to the to the loved one more. So. Being a stock unstoppable is not for everybody. I think that the people they knew or they became unstoppable because of their strength because of their willingness and because of their stamina. They made it and they will make it again you know, no matter what is going to happen next They will make it again. And, and I've learned that all the time, you know, it's not the first crisis that I go through probably just like you. You know, my first big one was the the team Twin Tower in New York, you know, it wasn't the Middle East at the time. And everyone coming from the Middle East was terrorists, no matter what, you know, we lost business one day to the next, you know, we went from 90% occupancy to zero in a matter of days. You know, when then then, when I was in Singapore, in 2003, we had the first pandemic, which didn't spread as far as right as COVID. But SARS was just as bad for Southeast Asia was terrible, you know, all the hotels in Southeast Asia were empty. And then, and then we have 2008, the financial crisis. In 2007, I was in New Delhi, where they were a terrorist attack, you know, the Taj Mahal is on a surfboard. And then I went, I went, I was in Oman, and we had this Arab Spring. And then, now we are all we also have this, this pandemic, so it's not the first time I go through a crisis. But a crisis also give a lot of opportunities. So if people get into fear, that's where they get lost, that's where they become. They don't know, they don't know what to do. They they get in panic, and then they freeze. Instead, when you get into crisis mode, you need to stay more focused, and understand, how can I make the most of this moment? What can I do now. And, believe it or not, so that you know, also, when I went in, when I went through this particular COVID, you know, it was also it was fearful for me, I cannot lie to you that I was very fearful. For the first time actually, I also came into this freezing position. But then after a few weeks, I start to talk to myself and say, You cannot do that. Now your family depends on you. Your livelihood depends on you. Your mental health depends on you, you got to do something. And then suddenly, I was listening to some podcasts, and then one guy is spying on me so much, I removed my fears immediately. And I and I, I went, I made a decision that actually change my life, change my life and change the life of the wonderful 50 employees that were working at a time in the company in in Chile, Yucatan, you know, when I was employed at the time, and guess what, from the moment, I became so much stronger, so much self confident, in so much secure that again, in, in a situation of of all of a crisis, that is an opportunity. Michael Hingson 57:55And isn't that what it's about? And I think that you realize that there are so many things that you can't control. And as I talk about here, a lot there, excuse me, all the things that you you do have control over. And those are the ones that you have to address and you chose to let your fear be a tool for you. And you chose to not fear and be overwhelmed by stuff. And yeah, COVID is certainly something that affects all of us, and affected all of us. And I don't know when or if that is going to totally go away. I don't know how, you know, I don't know how it's going to progress. They're talking about there being a major upsurge during the winter. And that's very possibly going to happen. And we're going to have to deal with that. But that isn't something that I have control over. That isn't something that you have control over. But we certainly do have control over how we choose to deal with it. And whether we allow fear to overwhelm us or whether we allow fear to strengthen us, which is what you're talking about here. Rocco Bova 59:09Absolutely. And become a stalker. Michael Hingson 59:12And, you know, I, I think everyone can be unstoppable. But many people choose not to learn to grow. And unstoppable in part also really requires that you look at yourself. People don't like to do that. Rocco Bova 59:30Yep. Yeah, absolutely. I can only agree with you with that. Michael Hingson 59:34So it is a challenge. Well, any last things, any last thoughts that you want to add to what we've talked about? We've been doing this for an hour and I've really enjoyed it, especially the last five minutes. I love what you've had to say but any anything that you want to leave his final thoughts for us? Well, Rocco Bova 59:54Michael, I can only say that the hospitality industry is the most one The whole industry in the world, I will not change this for anything, I will do everything all over again for another billion times. I love I keep loving the industry I think is still a wonderful place to be something that you can teach to others. The hospitality industry teaches you a lot, by the way, as is, is an industry that prepares you for so many things, you know, you have situation of fires, bombs, explosion, you name it, you know, everything happens in hotel, you know, you know that. And, and definitely is I mean to say I would recommend it to anyone because he makes you a better person. That's why I was so glad when my son told me that he was going to study hospitality management. So I'm very proud of even and on my daughter as well, because maybe she will get into the industry as well, even though she's studying marketing doesn't say that maybe she's not gonna join the industry, too. So let's see that. Michael Hingson 1:01:03We'll see how that goes. Have you written any books? Rocco Bova 1:01:07You know what? I'm not gonna lie to you. But the last book I read was The the biography of Steve Jobs. Michael Hingson 1:01:16But you've gotten any? Oh, go ahead. Rocco Bova 1:01:19No, I will say that, you know, I don't like I don't like to I don't like Hubble as a branch. I'm not an Apple guy. I'm silly. I have my laptop, my window. And my phone is is Google, Google face Google software. So I'm not an Apple guy. However, I love how Apple was born and grew, they grew up to become what it is. Today's a global brand is one of the most successful brands, you know, ever, ever invented. In I love how Steve Jobs actually made this brand. What are these? Today, if today, Steve Jobs was alive, I think that happened would have been 10 times more successful. Today, I agree at least at least 10 times. So I love the guy, but I don't like apple. Sorry. Sorry, for everybody else, you know, well, I Michael Hingson 1:02:17I like the iPhone, because it's more it's the most accessible smartphone. Now that happened, in part because Apple was going to be sued if they didn't fix it, but they chose to do it. And they did a great job. There about 95% There, there are still things that they should do that they're not but you know, overall, I know what you're saying as far as the hospitality industry. So you haven't written your own book yet. And maybe someday he'll decide to do that. Rocco Bova 1:02:47Let's see. I'm still too young, off. Hopefully, before I retire, I consider that and see I need to I need to find a ghostwriter. And perhaps somebody can help me with that. Michael Hingson 1:03:00They're out there. And yes, so maybe that that's certainly something that's good to do. Well, my first book was published when I was 61. So see, there you go. You got eight years. Exactly. Well, I want to thank you, Rocco, for being with us. This has been a lot of fun. And I think not only inspirational, but I've learned a lot and I love to hear your your discussions about business and so on, which validates so many things. So thank you for doing it and for being here with us. And I want to thank you for listening out there. We really appreciate it. Rocco, if people want to reach out to you how do they do that? Rocco Bova 1:03:39It Michael, I'm I'm very active on LinkedIn. So you can type of my full name Rocco Bova, you can definitely find that I know many people with my name. So can you spell that? Michael Hingson 1:03:49Could you spell it please? Yes, 1:03:50is R O C C O that's my name. And my family name is B O V A. So you can find me very easily on LinkedIn. And then you you can follow me and I'll be very happy to follow back. And, you know, let's learn from each other. You know, I make my profile, open and public so people can actually reach out you can send me a message without being connected as well. So I reply to everyone that sent me a message. So reach out if you want to have an opinion, or if you want, just talk to me. I'll be happy to do so. Michael Hingson 1:04:29There you go. So reach out to Rocco and tell him what you think and have a discussion with him. I enjoyed this and we're going to stay in touch for sure. And I hope that wherever you're listening, you'll give us a five star rating we would really appreciate that. And of course, as always, I really value getting your emails and your comments and if you'd like to email me, please do so at Michaelhi at accessibe.com that's m i c h a e l h i at a c c e s s i b e.com. I'm gonna go to our podcast page, which is www dot Michael hingson.com/podcast. And Michael hingson is m i c h a e l h i n g s o n all one word. But please give us a five star rating. Reach out to Rocco. I think you'd have a fun time discussing this with him and whatever you want to talk about with him. So I think it makes perfect sense to do and I hope that people will reach out to you, Rocco. And once again, I want to just thank you for being here with us and making us be able to be a part of your day Rocco Bova 1:05:34has been a pleasure. Thank you so much for the invitation. Michael Hingson 1:05:41You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com . AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. 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You may or may not be aware of ARC. This is an organization that for many years has championed the lives, rights and welfare of persons with Intellectual and developmental disabilities. One of the main funding sources for ARC is its thrift stores. Not only do these stores provide a revenue source, but they also provide employment for many persons with all kinds of disabilities. Our guest, Lloyd Lewis is the CEO of the ARC Colorado Thrift Stores. For the past 18 years he has grown the Colorado network from approximately $2 million to a large operation employing several hundred persons and greatly helping to financially support the activities of ARC. My conversation with Lloyd is far ranging and quite informative. We talk a lot about the broad subjects of disabilities including the myths and fears promulgated within society. Lloyd offers some keen observations on how we can and should work to make society more inclusive. Lloyd’s education and earlier business and legal background afford him a unique and strong skill set for the job he does today. I think you will find our conversation well worth your time. About the Guest: Lloyd Lewis is the CEO of the Arc Thrift Stores of Colorado, one of Colorado’s largest nonprofits, employers of persons with intellectual and developmental disabilities, and relief organizations. Under Lewis’ tenure, Arc Thrift has funded over $250 million to nonprofit causes and charities since 2005. Lewis is a passionate champion on a crusade to promote a new way to think about inclusion and diversity. Lewis the recipient of a Civil Rights Award and received the World Citizenship Award from the International Civitans, an honor that has included such noted past winners as England’s Prime Minister Winston Churchill and Eunice Shriver, the founder of Special Olympics. Lewis sits on the board of The Arc of the United States Foundation and is treasurer of Inclusion International, a worldwide organization advocating for people with intellectual and developmental disabilities, with members in over 100 countries. Lewis has a 19-year-old son with Down syndrome. He is the author of Why Not Them? a book about how his life was transformed by the birth of his son. In it, Lewis hopes to change the way our communities think about, connect with, and employee people with disabilities. Why Not Them? is about a purpose-driven organization, arc Thrift Stores, whose mission is the success and inclusion of all of its employees, regardless of their abilities. It’s about opening doors, challenging the way we do business, and touching hearts and minds. Written from the perspective of a father and a businessman, it asks us all to join in the fight for inclusion and understanding. It is educational and moving and challenges us – as individuals and as a community – to perhaps look at the world just a little bit differently. Ways to connect with Dr.Jonathan : https://lloydlewis.net/LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lewislloyd/ About the Host:Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children’s Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association’s 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.comhttps://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/https://twitter.com/mhingsonhttps://www.youtube.com/user/mhingsonhttps://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ accessiBe Linkshttps://accessibe.com/https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBehttps://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can also subscribe in your favorite podcast app. Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts. Transcription Notes:

Michael Hingson 00:00Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us. Michael Hingson 01:21Well, hi, everyone, and welcome to another edition of unstoppable mindset where inclusion and diversity in the unexpected meet. And we get to talk today about inclusion and diversity. And if we're not, we may hit the unexpected as well, which is anything except inclusion and diversity. But our guest today is Lloyd Lewis, who is the CEO of the ark, Colorado thrift stores. And we're going to talk about ark and the thrift stores and everything else under the sun and why he's doing it and all that. So I'm not going to talk much, because that's his job. So Lloyd, welcome to unstoppable mindset. We're glad you're here, Michael. Lloyd Lewis 02:00It's great to be with you. And I really appreciate our opportunity to get to know each other and have a conversation. Looking Michael Hingson 02:06forward to it. Now we're in Colorado, are you? Lloyd Lewis 02:10We're actually I have stores across Colorado, from Fort Collins in the North Pole in the south across what we call our front range. And also on our western slope. My company is headquartered in Lakewood, Colorado, which is just a little bit southeast of Denver. Okay, we are all across the state. I Michael Hingson 02:31get to be in Littleton in May for the board meeting of the Colorado Center for the Blind and Littleton. Lloyd Lewis 02:37Oh, nice. Very cool. Yeah, Littleton is isn't as the city very near to us where we have a store and a very successful operation. And it's a wonderful city. Well, Michael Hingson 02:49I'm going to have to make sure that when we're going to be there that maybe we can at least meet in person. That Lloyd Lewis 02:58would be great. Please let me know when you're here. Michael Hingson 03:01I will. I don't remember the date. But I think it's around the ninth of may. But I'll let you know. Lloyd Lewis 03:06Maybe we could meet at my warehouse. We have a lot of wonderful blind call center agents there with adapted software. They do an amazing job for us. And I think they would appreciate getting an opportunity to meet you and and get to know you a little bit. Michael Hingson 03:22I may just stay an extra day or come in a day early to do that. Lloyd Lewis 03:26That'd be very cool. Very well. In any case, why Michael Hingson 03:29don't we start with you if you would tell us maybe about kind of the early Lloyd growing up and all that. Yeah, the Lloyd Lewis 03:36early Lloyd grew up in Tacoma, Washington. And I have a lot of family there. And the early Lloyd moved around a bit. California bit Bakersfield, high point North Carolina and Oklahoma City. And I had a stepfather who was doing transfers as a FAA controller. And I grew up, you know, doing well in school and playing sports. And really appreciate where I grew up, where we can see Mount Rainier from my backyard. And we had covered playgrounds because it rained all the time. Not like the kind of rain you're getting now. But it rained a lot in Washington and I actually like rain if it's the appropriate level. Not the LA rain you got right now but I've always found it refreshing. You had some snow this year. We've had a lot of snow this year. And we had that this past weekend. We were expecting a couple inches we got eight or nine inches. And we're having better weather right now as we're speaking. But this weekend, we could get even more so it's you know, I just wish we weren't getting so much of this because it interferes with my stores. If the roads aren't drivable people aren't likely to be out On the road, visiting my stores. So hopefully it'll be milder than what they're predicting right now. Michael Hingson 05:08Just for a point of reference, we're recording this on February 6 2024. So that's why we're talking about rain and snow and everything else. And typically, a lot of the weather that starts out in California does go East and elsewhere. So it's probably going to be a follow up to the storm that we have here that that you get. But it's a very slow moving storm. And that's why it's been so crazy out here, because we've had so much rain since it's just stayed over us and dumped a lot of moisture. Lloyd Lewis 05:40We see it on the news media, and it's very, you know, concerning. It's a lot of damage there. And power outages. And, you know, we in Colorado, we are, you know, sorry, this is the experience that you are having. Yeah, Michael Hingson 05:56well, and we will we will deal with it, which is cool. But at least we can and the cities and the government is doing their best to try to keep up with it all. Lloyd Lewis 06:06Well, I hope they can. Michael Hingson 06:07I hope. So. You did you go to college in in Colorado, or Lloyd Lewis 06:13I did not I ended up going to undergrad at the University of Oklahoma, in Norman, Oklahoma, and got a degree in political science. Michael Hingson 06:23Now, why did you go there as opposed to sign close? And I was Lloyd Lewis 06:27I was in high school at the time there. My stepfather had transferred Oklahoma City because he was teaching at the FAA Academy which is located. Yes. And then when it came time to do my undergrad. I had some counselors who thought I should attend an IV instead, I followed my friends to Norman, Oklahoma. And that was my undergraduate education. Michael Hingson 06:53Then what did you do? Then Lloyd Lewis 06:55I followed a girlfriend out to Massachusetts. From there, I did a paralegal training program in Atlanta, then hired at the Tennessee Valley Authority in Knoxville, where I spent a few years as a paralegal and applying for a paralegal job with an investment firm in Philadelphia, because I'd never been in the big city in the Northeast. And I ended up prior to grad school, being a municipal investment banker working on municipal financing projects, ultimately with Smith Barney, which Wow, fairly prominent firm at the time. Yes. Michael Hingson 07:33Did girlfriend follow you around or? Lloyd Lewis 07:36No, she that didn't work. He did her own thing. She actually she's done quite well. She went to do a PhD at Princeton and English, and became a professor at the University of Mississippi in a very successful career. Michael Hingson 07:51That's great. So did you ever find another girlfriend that took? Lloyd Lewis 07:57I did? Oh, good. Okay, I found a few. And then from Philadelphia, we thought the 1986 tax bill would disrupt our industry. So I took the Graduate Management Admission Test the GMAT application test for business school, I got admitted to Duke to Michigan to some other schools and Oh, my word and versity of Chicago. Which is, you know, considered, I guess, the best business school in America, per US News rankings. And I did an MBA graduate in 88, with a specialty in finance. It came out to Colorado in Boulder with IBM, as a senior financial analyst in their executive training program, and from there did a series of companies. I was director of finance for publicly traded medical equipment company. I was a CFO for high tech ultimately sold to micron. And then in 2003, my world changed. I had a little boy born with Down syndrome, whose name Michael Hingson 09:07I'm sorry, his name again. Kennedy. Lloyd Lewis 09:11Okay, and I got involved in scientific research advocacy. I met a neuroscientist at the University of Colorado working in that arena. And we partnered up and advocated at CU University Colorado across the country to try to get more funding for Down syndrome research at the time. It really didn't receive much funding and met a philanthropist daughter, whose father had founded stars encore she has a little girl my son's age with Down syndrome. We partnered up and ultimately that family created what's now the largest world's largest Down Syndrome research facility. The Linda cernik Institute named for the neuroscientist that I met and worked with initially on advocacy. My whole world changed with the birth of my son candidate What? Michael Hingson 10:00What caused you to really decide to make that change and go away from being a financial analyst and being very successful in the corporate world to clearly something else, just just because of his birth? Or did things happen that changed your life or when Lloyd Lewis 10:17he was born? You know, a lot of parents if they have a child with Down syndrome, you know, surprise them at birth, they might get anxious or depressed or angry or concerned. For whatever reason, none of that occurred to me, I just thought he was great would always be great. And I immediately thought about trying to help Kennedy, because people with Down Syndrome and intellectual disabilities have a lot of challenges and obstacles. So I went to a personal development seminar. I announced my goal in life was to raise $25 million in Down Syndrome research and Everyone applauded. And when I got down from the podium with that, holy smokes, I don't have money, I don't know anybody with money. And ultimately, the philanthropist daughter that I met, that family created the world's largest Down Syndrome Research Institute gifted with 32 million from that family believer in pointing the bat to centerfield, and, you know, shooting for the moon during the moon shot. And a few years later, unfortunately, the neuroscientist who was my friend and partner passed away from an aneurysm I took was my best friend at the time, I took a hiatus from Down Syndrome research, and was recruited to our by a friend that I had at IBM, and I joined arc, Mio five as CFO. Why? Well, I thought I could take my business skills and help create funding programs that would help people like my son. Michael Hingson 11:56So tell me more about Ark. So where it came from, what it is, and so on, if you would. Ark Lloyd Lewis 12:03thrift stores was created in 1968. To find Ark advocate chapters, who helped people with intellectual disabilities by jobs, housing, medical services, services and schools, affiliated with the Ark United States, the ark in the United States was the first parent organization during the 1940s, to advocate for humane treatment in large institutions where people like my son were being abused. And had my son been born in the 1940s. We would have been told, send him to Tunis, and forget about him, he won't walk or talk, tell people he died, don't tell people about him. But the Ark United States set about trying to create more humane conditions in these large institutions followed by deinstitutionalization advocacy, mainstreaming inclusion, public education, people like my son now live with their families, they participate in their communities. And the arcade United States with chapters all across the country, one of the top 10 charities in America does direct services and advocacy all across the United States, including advocacy in DC, with Congress and people, you know, important departments of the US government. So the art chapters of Colorado, all across Colorado, 15 art chapters, work with 1000s and 1000s of families and kids and adults. And again, try to help them achieve goals that, you know, a lot of us take for granted. How to find this job, how to find a place to live, you know, how to get your medical needs cared for, you know, how to be treated with respect in schools. And in our world, as as much progress has been made. You know, just through inclusion, people like my son have gained, on average 20 IQ points going from severe to mild impairment, moderate impairment to moderate to mild impairment. But still, there are tremendous challenges. 80% of people with intellectual dis 80% of women with intellectual disabilities will be abused. 40% multiple times 40% of men. There's an 80% unemployment rate for people with intellectual disabilities, the highest in the country. There's extreme shortage of housing and supports, there's a higher need for medical care. schools still have segregated classrooms for people with intellectual disabilities. So a lot of progress has been made, but there's a lot of progress yet to be made that the arcs are working. Michael Hingson 14:54Now is arc today an acronym for something. Now Lloyd Lewis 14:57it's no longer an acronym. Back in a Yeah, the word retarded, which is never used was actually an improvement over previous descriptions like Mongoloid ism, etc. It's no longer acceptable, right? It's just our it is just art today legally things are name as did the United States as have all the art chapters across the country, which Michael Hingson 15:19is, which is great and which makes perfect sense. And I kind of always wondered that whether and I sort of thought that that was the case. Well, my experience of being blind going back to when I was born in 1950, doctors told my parents the same thing, send him off to a home because no blind child can ever grow up to be a contributor to society. And he's just going to be a drain on your family. And that was the the tent the tone and the trend at the time, it was even worse than the other countries where they would just dispose of kids with disabilities when they were born. Lloyd Lewis 15:57Right, you know, we have many blind friends in Colorado, and they've all had similar experiences growing up, and challenges and obstacles. And, and, you know, our deep belief is that people with all disabilities, whether it's mental health, blindness, intellectual disabilities, physical disabilities, should be treated equally and afforded the same opportunities through education or employment as anyone else in society. And that's what we endeavored to do. Michael Hingson 16:31Being a little bit of a rabble rouser and troublemaker, of course, my position is, every person in society has a disability. And for most all of you, it's the fact that you're like, dependent. And if the lights go out, and you don't, well, if the lights go out, and you don't have a smartphone, or a flashlight nearby, you're in a world of trouble. Yeah, Lloyd Lewis 16:51I mean, everyone has issues of some type, whether it's, they have, you know, physical, physical issues, or, you know, they have hearing issues, or issues related to aging, or mental health. Or for some people, it's alcohol, some people, it's drugs, sure, Michael Hingson 17:14but I really, but I really do seriously choose to believe that life dependence is a disability, the only thing is that Thomas Edison invented the light bulb, and now light on demand has become so ubiquitous, that your disability is covered up, but it doesn't change the fact that it is one of the things that most people have to contend with in some way or another. Well, Lloyd Lewis 17:36you know, thank you for sharing that, you know, and you are absolutely correct if to do anything in our household, before we go to sleep depended on light. And without light. And without vision, I would be completely immobilized. Michael Hingson 17:57So and and the reality is, of course, you don't have to be but that's the way we're, we mostly are brought up. And the result is that we keep talking about blind people as being visually impaired, which is so wrong on so many levels, because visually, we're not now we look, we don't look different, simply because we're blind, necessarily. And impaired, is what some of the professionals in the field have made it but impaired or not. And it's it's really wrong for people to ever accuse anyone who has a so called traditional disability, physical or intellectual, of being impaired, because that means you're really just comparing us to someone else. And that's so unfortunate. Lloyd Lewis 18:45Well, thank you for sharing that. That's, that's very profound. And that's very meaningful and impactful. So thank you for sharing that. But Michael Hingson 18:54it is, it is something that we, we all deal with, in one way or another, and it's just kind of the way it is. So if we, you know, in looking at a lot of all of this, what about EI and people who are dealing with intellectual disabilities and so on. Lloyd Lewis 19:18But really, I just came to this conversation, from a meeting with my dei director, who happens to be African American, and our senior staff of 10 plus individuals, talking about the importance of Dei, with respect to people who have intellectual disabilities, with respect to broadening the tent as much as possible across the company for people with various various challenges in their own lives. They might be homeless, or they might be, you know, from poor economic or backgrounds, or they might be immigrants or refugees or veterans or formerly incarcerated or black or Latino, female, or we just, you know, every, every part of our society, we like to reach out to as much as we can to offer opportunities to be involved with us. We're very diverse company, which is pervert produced our latest EDI report. And we believe that diversity makes us all stronger, that everyone's different in some way. How Michael Hingson 20:41did we get most people in society, however, to recognize that we're not including disabilities in the diversity discussion, if you talk to most experts about diversity, they'll talk to you about sexual orientation, and race and gender and so on. And they won't deal with disabilities at all physical or intellectual or developmental. I Lloyd Lewis 21:07think it's a matter of awareness. I think it's a matter of reaching out and having these discussions, I presented to a group of two or 300 CEOs last year about the importance of including people with intellectual disabilities in their dei programs. I've spoken to national organizations. I've written a book, I'm at work on a movie with a film producer. And to me, I think it's a matter of, we need to reach out, we need to bring this to people's attention. And we need to advocate for our communities. And make sure we're included in DDI programs and discussions, I mean, that the ones that people talk about are more than deserving they're really deserving. But we are no less or no more deserving than other parts of dei programs, right need to be speaking out on behalf of people with disabilities to make sure that we're included in these conversations and in these programs. Michael Hingson 22:15Well, and we need to teach and help people with disabilities speak out as well, because the reality is that we tend to be ignored. And it's it's so unfortunate, you know, we're talking this month in February, about Black History Month, and so on. In October, it will be in Disability Employment Awareness Month and Disability Awareness Month. But you won't see anywhere near the visibility and the publicity and the talk about it. Even though it's a larger minority than black history, or blacks or African Americans or any of the other minorities who get recognized at one time or another during the year. Lloyd Lewis 22:55I think it's on us, I think it's on us to really speak out. And, you know, make sure we're represented, make sure we're included, make sure we're part of these conversations. And we need to bring this to people's attention and advocate, just like other groups have that advocated. And they're no less deserving of more than us. But it's really on us, it's on you and me and, and others disability leaders and people with disabilities to make sure that we have seats at the table. Michael Hingson 23:33Yeah. And I think that, that is a lot of it. We've we've got to get Congress and the states to do more to stiffen the laws and give us more of the laws that we need to have. Even though it should be a no brainer to do so. We don't find that legislators work nearly as fast as they ought to on some of these things. For example, we're just seeing reasonable movement on a bill that would require medical devices to be accessible. We still have debates regularly in the states and even in Congress about the fact that while the Americans with Disabilities Act should cover the internet, and the Department of Justice finally said, so there's still a lot of argument about it. And the result is a lot of places say well, I don't need to really make my website accessible because the Internet didn't come until long after the the ADEA. So the ADEA can't add in any way involve the internet, which is a ridiculous argument. But yet it is what we encounter. Lloyd Lewis 24:52Well, that is a problem. And you know if we could turn out 50 to 100 people to go talk to our legislators Talk to them session after session, day after day, week after week, we will get their attention. And we will make sure that we get these kinds of issues. You know, I chair five disabilities in Colorado, one of which is a Colorado cross disability coalition representing people with all kinds of disabilities. And the leader of that organization has become very prominent as an advocate, we have a policy aide for the lieutenant governor, who is my co chair for that organization. And we are making big strides in Colorado, getting lots of good legislation, but there's still there's still advocacy to be done. And we're talking about creating a permanent disability office as part of the governor's cabinet. But it again, it's on us to go after these issues. To get the attention of the decision makers, the legislators, the corporation's to make sure that we're not ignored to make sure that we're not back to the bus. Michael Hingson 26:07Yeah, it's it is a process and there's been growth, there's been movement, but there still is so much more that that does need to be done. And we also have to be proud of our own history and, and recognize that we've made a lot of progress. But there is a lot you have to do. Lloyd Lewis 26:28I am chair of something called the Atlanta Community Foundation, which is was a sister organization of Atlanta's community Inc, which was the nation's second created Independent Living Center initially on it, or it's helping people move out of nursing homes and get independent living skills. And we manage 200 affordable apartments for people with cross disabilities. And part of the history of this organization is the formation of an organization called adapt, which you're probably familiar with, which does all kinds of advocacy, nationally, nationally has annual sins and protests. Famously, in the 1980s. A gentleman Wade Blank, would march with Dr. King was in Denver, and he was Associate Director for a nursing home where he tried to create, you know, fuller lives, more enjoyable lives are some of the residents, his reward was getting fired. When he got fired. He started suing, you know, the nursing home, getting people removed from the nursing home and creating this independent living center. And one of the more notable actions he organized was something called the gang of 1919 people in wheelchairs, went out to a Denver bus stop as the bus rolled up, they rolled in front, some roll behind another bus rolled up, they roll behind that one. And that led to the first accessible buses in the country here in Denver, that spread out across the country. But they're you know, Berkeley and Denver are two prominent centers of disability history in America. Michael Hingson 28:41A couple of years ago, I read an article that said that New York City Manhattan specifically made a commitment that they're going to make, I think it was 95%. But it may have been even higher of all subway stations accessible, which meant wheelchair accessible, and so on. And I and I know, having lived in the area and been on a lot of those subway platforms. That is a monumental task, because some of them Michael Hingson 29:20I'll be interested to see how they create the space to put an elevator in to get people down, which is not that it shouldn't be done. But it was a pretty major commitment. And I gather it's moving forward because I'm not hearing anything that saying that people aren't moving forward with it. Lloyd Lewis 29:35Well, that hopefully they fulfill that commitment. Yeah. It's again, as you say, it's very important to listen to our community. And make sure that we are included to make sure that we have accessible means to live just like everybody else. How Michael Hingson 29:54does this whole lack of in some senses regarding disabilities dei I affect the civil liberties of people with disabilities. Lloyd Lewis 30:06Well, you know, if you're discriminated against in employment, you know, that is a financial impact that is unequal and unfair in very disturbing, there's a very high rate of poverty in our community, which is, needs to be addressed. And those are things that we are working on. And people need the ability to have equal opportunities employment. Similarly, in housing, housing needs to be accessible, it needs to be affordable, needs to be available to people with disabilities, medical care, there's higher needs of medical care. Yeah, there needs to be more attention in Medicaid and other insurance programs to make sure that our community get the kind of medical care that that that they deserve, as human beings, as citizens who should be treated equally with everyone else, you shouldn't have to be rich to get medical care. Yeah, you shouldn't have to be without the disability and the way we think of disability to get appropriate medical care, similarly, in schools, there's still segregated classrooms and school. Yeah, in the world of abuse. People with disabilities, extreme experience higher rates of abuse than others, just in every aspect of society. We are we are hurting people with disabilities if they're not treated fairly and equally with equal opportunities. We Michael Hingson 31:52were talking earlier about the whole issue of becoming more involved in the conversation and what you were just talking about reminded me of something. My wife, when she was alive, was in a wheelchair her whole life, we were married for two years, and she passed in November of 2022. One of the things that she loved to do and so she got me to watching it as well was television shows like The Property Brothers on HGTV, or they call Property Brothers. Okay. And it's to get two twins, twins, who will go renovate homes for people and, and so on. And they, they do build some, but the thing about it, and there are so many shows like it, that are all involved on Home and Garden Television, with renovating homes, fixing up homes and so on. I don't even even though it would make sense to do, especially since we have an aging population, what I don't see is any of these people making a part of their vernacular or vocabulary or modus operandi, putting in appropriate things to consider the fact that somebody in the future who may get that home will have a disability. And, and so the result is we don't, you know, they don't do it. I think I saw one Property Brothers show where it was a wheelchair issue, or there was a person in a chair. But they don't do it as a matter of course, and it would make sense to do. And some architects will point out why it's sensible to do. Lloyd Lewis 33:36That's a very important point. Again, we need to be reaching out to the cable show producers, we need to be reaching out to the media, we need to be reaching out the networks, the streamers, Netflix, Amazon, we need to be reaching out to the builders, the builders associations, they can't ignore accessibility. Accessibility needs to be able to be built in everywhere, everywhere. And it's unacceptable to gloss over our community and not really listened to our requests for accessibility and inclusion is just not acceptable. Michael Hingson 34:21I suppose. And I hear what you're saying. And I don't argue with with that at all. But I do suppose on the one hand, where where should people focus most of their attention? I know in the National Federation of the Blind, for example. Well, the whole issue of access in the way we're talking about for people in chairs and other people isn't quite the issue. It really is. But at the same time, how do you decide where to focus your efforts? Lloyd Lewis 34:57Well, you know, I I'm very involved in cross disability advocacy. I'm very involved in affordable housing integrated for people with disabilities. I'm very involved in a state disability funding committee funding innovative disability projects on the ark of us Foundation Board, working in the arena, trying to assist them expand their funding capacity. I'm on an international board with members in 100 countries because as much challenge as we have in America, in some parts of the world, it's even Oh, yeah, extremely challenging, and concerning and troubling. And I'm very involved in my own company, and providing relief to our community and food, food insecure, employment opportunities to marginalized populations. And we've hired hundreds of employees with disabilities to my company. You know, where one focuses, it is really dependent on one's primary concerns. And one's bandwidth. I am fortunate to be blessed with an ability to sort of, you know, do a lot of things all at once. And so I try to do as much as I can as much as many different arenas as I can. But, you know, whatever the primary issues are for the National Federation of the Blind. If that's one's main concern, you know, go for it, you know, start reaching out to as many people as you can, Michael Hingson 36:53yeah. Well, and, and they do. But I, but I think that the, the challenge is, is for all of us so overwhelming, but it doesn't mean that we shouldn't be dealing with it. And one of the reasons that is overwhelming is that there are so many myths and so many poor attitudes and misconceptions about things like employing persons with intellectual and developmental disabilities, or any kind of a disability, you know, what are some of the kind of myths that you encounter every day? And how do you? How do you deal with some of those? Lloyd Lewis 37:30Well, in my company, it's relatively easy to deal with the myths because I'm at the top of the company. So we don't have the same kinds of barriers and challenges that employees face in other companies. We are completely accessible, we are completely responsible, responsive to the needs of people with disabilities who work for us. With other companies, you know, it becomes more difficult because there are miss that it's going to be too costly, or there's going to be too many accommodations, or they're going to be safety issues, or legal issues or what have you. My response to all of that is, you know, we have to be provide accessibility to our employees, well make accommodations for all our employees. Well, so it's no no different than making accommodation for a person with disability than it is for someone who, who needs some time away with their kids or time away with an illness. Or they need a flexible schedule, or they need some kind of medical support. We need to think about providing accessibility and accommodations for everybody, regardless of ability or disability. Well, here's Michael Hingson 38:51another example. And one of the reasons I brought it up is to get to this point. So take the average employee who doesn't supposedly have a disability, right? What does any company provide them with? We provide them and I tell me this in a facetious way, but we provide them with lights so that they can see to walk down the hall and go to the restroom, and so on. We provide them with monitors and computers, and especially the monitors so they can see what it is that they have to do on the computer. We provide them with rooms that have coffee machines, so they can get coffee and other things like that. You know, we provide so many reasonable accommodations to the average employee period, that why should it be difficult to provide specific accommodations for maybe a subgroup of those people? And the answer is, of course, it shouldn't be a problem. If I go to work for a company, I instead have a monitor because I'm not going to use a monitor, although typically, computers come with monitors, but I need a screen reader to verbalize the the information that comes across the screen. But I'll get the argument well, but we didn't budget for that. And my response is, yes, you did. You provide what it is that people need in order to be able to access the information on the computer, just because what I use is a little bit different. We, a part of the conversation needs to be that we're providing lots of accommodations for everyone already. Lloyd Lewis 40:35Yeah, I completely agree. And in my own experience, it's no more costly to provide accommodations to people with disabilities and people who supposedly don't have disabilities. And it's just there's not really an expense differential anyway. And they were even if there were, we need to treat people humanely. People opportunities, well, where are we at as a society with our morality? Yeah, if we don't help everyone who can use our support? What what does that say about our society, even Michael Hingson 41:11if there were significant differences in expenses, which we know there are not. But even if there were, the bottom line is that any company that is doing anything, can figure out ways to offset those costs. But, but the reality is, there aren't significant differences at all. We Lloyd Lewis 41:32now live in this world of artificial intelligence. We now live in this world of the cloud. We now live in this world of extreme technical advances, medical advances. There's really no excuse not to support everyone in society, and give them reasonable accommodations. There's just no excuse. And that's Michael Hingson 41:57one of the reasons is that I object to the concept of being called visually impaired, because impaired is such a negative term, when you start to say anyone is impaired compared to anyone else. Everyone has impairments of one sort or another. And the reality is that we need to get that kind of concept out of our vocabularies, and least out of our mindsets. Well, I Lloyd Lewis 42:23again, I totally agree. Yeah. They totally agree. Michael Hingson 42:27So this is probably a little redundant, but what are some of the, the myths and fears that and this gets back to the whole conversation about disabilities? And I think why we're not so much included, but what are some of the myths and fears that people typically have about all of us, and especially I think, even more so with intellectual and developmental disabilities, Lloyd Lewis 42:49safety cost, legal accommodations, but we experience No, in my company, we have 450 employees with intellectual develop developmental disabilities, 450, Down syndrome, autism, cerebral palsy, all forms of types of developmental disability, my company has never been more successful. I got the company near 37. When we were doing all of 2 million in earnings, we have had 17 of 18 record years only interrupted by the COVID. year, we're now doing 20 million. And I've hired 450 employees with developmental disabilities. Michael Hingson 43:34How old is the company today? Lloyd Lewis 43:36is 55 years old? All right, so Michael Hingson 43:39in 18 years, look what you've done. Yeah, and, Lloyd Lewis 43:42you know, I attribute a lot of that to employ people with disabilities, love to contribute, love to work in teams are very, you know, positive and inspirational to their fellow employees. And they just appreciate being able to be part of the workforce, and do what the rest of us do. And, you know, to me, I would do it in any company. If I were the head of IBM or the head of Facebook or Apple, I would do the same thing. Michael Hingson 44:20I would, I would submit that one of the advantages of hiring a person with any kind of a disability who thinks at all would tell you I'm going to be more loyal to you because I know how hard it was for me to get a job and the very fact that you gave me a job is going to want me to stay there because you made me an offer and in theory, you made me feel welcome. Why would I ever want to Lloyd Lewis 44:50leave boys with with disabilities are extremely low in the hate to miss work? We get to three feet of snow on the road and they want to come into work. I have to order them not to. Yeah, I believe all of our employees with disabilities are our blind agents or employees with intellectual disabilities or wheelchair users. They are extremely loyal, the Colorado's, and they can benefit from employment period that the Colorado Michael Hingson 45:21Center for the Blind in Littleton has actually purchased an apartment complex where all the students reside. And they have to learn independent living skills, learn how to keep up the apartments and so on. But they go every day to the Senator. So it usually means taking a bus, I think it's close enough that you can walk but not during the snow. But again, people do the same thing. They're very committed to being there to learning the skills that that need to be learned. And they do whatever is necessary to make it work out. And that's what it should be. Lloyd Lewis 46:02Yeah, again, total agreement you did acquire, Michael Hingson 46:05I would add one fear that you didn't mention. And I'll, I'll say it and then I'll fall aside a little bit. The fear is, I could become like you, I could get a disability, it could happen to me in a moment's notice. Having said that, the response is, how often when we start to deal with fear, do we just worry about things to death? That will never happen? The reality is most people won't get a dis become a person with a disability in any way. Why are you worrying about it? Lloyd Lewis 46:46Well, in the employment world, I agree with you. But as we age, more often than not, people eventually acquire some kind of disability, physical mental, cancer, Alzheimer's, you know, as we age, more or less well, true herb as well, not everybody. But I think part of it is not realizing that, you know, at, at the end of our lives, most people are dealing with issues that they didn't deal with earlier now. Sure. Michael Hingson 47:25And so they also weren't prepared for that either, which is part of what society really needs to do. Lloyd Lewis 47:32So I think people need a deeper empathy and understanding of, you know, people like my son are born with Down syndrome. And, you know, they have typically cognitive issues, resulting in IQs, less than 76. And, you know, it's not like they chose that live. It's not like, you know, they didn't do things in their life to prevent that happening. My son was born with an extra chromosome 21. But he's, he's a wonderful human being. And he deserves the same kind of opportunities, and treatment as everyone else in society, Michael Hingson 48:19will he have a job somewhere? Lloyd Lewis 48:21He, he's already working part time at one of my stores. And he's finishing his last year of high school transition. Cool. But I think people need to understand that a lot of people don't choose their so called disability. They're born with it. And people don't understand that later in life. Most people will probably have some kind of issue they deal with, and how would they like to be treated later in life? Right? What kind of respect they deserve later in life? What kind of treatment do they deserve later in life. Michael Hingson 49:03One of the wonderful things that happens at the Colorado Center, and that I've talked about before is that if you enroll there, and become a student, if you are low vision, as opposed to blind, that is totally blind. But if you have some eyesight, you will still do most of your work, your travel training and so on, under sleep shades. And you will learn to do that as a totally blind person. And the reason Lloyd Lewis 49:33pardon me but describe sleep shades for me. Sleep shades are Michael Hingson 49:37the things that some people put on at night when their lights so basically, covering your eyes or got it. Yeah, I forget the other terms that people use for them, but that's basically just so that you don't see any light. Okay? And the reason for it is many people who enroll or matriculate into the center with and have who have low vision are people who have retinitis pigmentosa or something else has occurred with them. And they will probably lose the rest of their vision. And the philosophy of the center is. This is the time for you to learn all about blindness. And really what blindness means. And by doing so, when you lose the rest of your eyesight, which is not to say you shouldn't use the ICU half, but when you lose the rest of it, which very well could happen, you'll already know what to do. And you don't have to go through a second psychological trauma, and learn things all over again, which I think is so important, because we teach people that blindness isn't the problem. And I think it's true with other disabilities as well. It's not the problem. It's our attitudes and our perceptions that are the real issue that we face. Lloyd Lewis 50:56Yeah, I very much appreciate that kind of thought process. It's, Michael Hingson 51:01it's pretty cool. One of the things that you have to do if you're going to graduate from the Senator, is you have to cook a lunch yourselves, for staff and all the students, which means you're usually cooking for between 70 and 80 people, and you get to do the whole lunch plan, the menu and everything. It's really excited on graduation day for anyone when that happens, because they've learned Linus has been gonna keep me from doing stuff. Lloyd Lewis 51:32Do you know Brenda Mosby does that name ring a bell? No. She's my co chair for the Colorado processability coalition. And she has low vision, I believe. And that's a person that is you remind me, I will email intro I think you would really enjoy me with Brenda, who has a lot of your experiences and philosophies. And I think she would be an important person for you to get connected with in Colorado. Michael Hingson 51:59Sure. And on top of everything else, we can get her on the podcast. Lloyd Lewis 52:03She would she would be great on the podcast, Michael Hingson 52:08always looking for guests. So anybody who has a person you think we I Lloyd Lewis 52:13guess be at work? Yes. Michael Hingson 52:15We're always looking. So anybody listening, if you've got a thought for a guest, we want to hear from you. But that's great. I'd love to meet her. And, and again, we're going to be in Colorado, we'll we'll work that out. I think it'll be a lot of fun to do. But I think that for the most part, we really do need to recognize that what people think about us and not necessarily the way reality really is. Lloyd Lewis 52:47Here, I mean people's misperceptions that people have intellectual disabilities as an example. If they're not connected to someone, they don't realize the full value and contribution someone like my son can make. What I'd say get to know him, and his personality, and his sense of humor. And you know, the things he enjoys? Yeah, his ability to verbal communication is a little tough for him because of some, you know, physical features. Yeah, sometimes a company down syndrome. But you can miss estimate what his real intelligence level is, because the verbal thing, but Michael Hingson 53:33I will bet he's not shy about voicing his opinion or articulating where he can. Lloyd Lewis 53:37He's not shy at all. In fact, he's kind of like the life of the party. And he loves to give speeches. And he is not embarrassed at all, to be in front of 1000s of people and get the microphone and express his opinions. Michael Hingson 53:55What's the difference between an intellectual and a developmental disability? Lloyd Lewis 54:02Well, they describe two things intellectual is around IQ and developmental as around the various stages of development, you know, crawling, walking, the typical developmental phases of early childhood. Michael Hingson 54:24What are would you say some of the best industries? I'll be interested to hear your answer to this some of the best industries that are suited to support or employ persons with intellectual and developmental disabilities. Lloyd Lewis 54:37I would say every industry there you go. That's what we tend to think of certain industries that Yeah, look, but I'm telling you, every industry can have people with IDD work in that industry and be productive contributing members every year. I don't care whether it's tech aerospace, or the military, or every single and energy, retail groceries, every single industry can have seductive employees who have IDD and productive employees who have any form of so called disability. Michael Hingson 55:24Yeah, I think that's really the right answer. Why should we be limited? Lloyd Lewis 55:32Well, we're limited due to misperception. Yeah, that's my point, he went to lack of understanding, lack of awareness, lack of connection. And it's not always particularly the fault of these industries. Because unless you have a personal connection, you may not have had the opportunity to become aware of who people really are. This is same experience African Americans had back in the day and still have today that women have had and still have today, that gays have had and still have today. That there, there's a lack of understanding of so called, you know, diverse communities, that with understanding and connection, all of that goes away. All of that goes away Michael Hingson 56:16with all of the things that are going on today in society. And I think in so many ways, we are losing the art of conversation, and so on. Do you think that's making the opportunities and the whole potential for having the conversations that we're talking about tougher? Lloyd Lewis 56:40Yeah, these kinds of conversations can be tough, because people aren't familiar with them. And these are new concepts. And one has to set aside some biases, in a lot of cases unconscious biases, that again, with personal connections and awareness and direct contact. A lot of this stuff goes away. Yeah, you get to know who they are, she Michael Hingson 57:03got to know. Yeah. You discovered for Lloyd Lewis 57:08literally being in a room with somebody, or on the phone with somebody and getting to know, Michael Hingson 57:12you discovered that what you thought isn't really the way it is. Lloyd Lewis 57:16That is correct. That's absolutely correct. Well, Michael Hingson 57:19I want to thank you for being here with us and taking the time to chat with us about art about disabilities in general. Of course, needless to say, it's a topic that's near and dear to my heart. If people want to reach out to you and and talk with you more or or learn more about our How do they do that? Lloyd Lewis 57:42They can email me a Lewis l e w i s at ARC thrift.com, A R C thrift.com. On my cell phone 720-206-7047 Just say you heard this on this program. There Michael Hingson 57:55you go. Well, I hope people will do it, I hope people will reach out and the people will be more now stimulated and more knowledgeable about disabilities than they were before they came. I think that it's extremely important, and that they will help promote the conversation. And we'll have to work on getting the Property Brothers to come on to unstoppable mindset. These days. I think that'll be fun as less contact those guys. Yeah, Jonathan and drew Scott. Lloyd Lewis 58:26Wonderful conversation, really enjoyed getting to know you and have this conversation. And I think I learned a hell of a lot more from you than you learn from me. Michael Hingson 58:35Ah, not sure about that. I always love to Lloyd Lewis 58:38add a lot of wisdom in what you said. Michael Hingson 58:41Well, thank you. I appreciate it. I think we both learned a lot, which is the way it should be. I feel that if I'm not learning on these podcasts, and I'm not doing a good job, and I always find ways to learn so Lloyd Lewis 58:52this podcast is gonna be one of my favorite podcasts, you 58:55will definitely get it. Well thank you and I want to thank you all for being here and listening to us. Love to hear your thoughts. Please feel free to email me at Michaelhi M I C H A E L H I at accessiBe A c c e s s i b e.com. Or go to our podcast page at WWW dot Michael hingson.com/podcast. Michael Hingson is m i c h a e l h i n g s o n.com. And I should have said and will now say that we met Lloyd through Sheldon Lewis at accessiBe you know, Sheldon. Lloyd Lewis 59:29Well, thank you. Thank you so much, Michael. I very much enjoyed this. Michael Hingson 59:32Well, thank you for being here. We really appreciate it. And let's do it again. Lloyd Lewis 59:38Please do it again. More to learn. Let's do it again. Michael Hingson 59:45You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com . AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

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Our guest this episode is Jonathan Marion. Dr. Jonathan Marion believes that when we LIVE, CONNECT, & COMMUNICATE authentically, we send out ripples…. which send out ripples…which make the world a more caring and connected place, one ripple at a time. Don’t you just love that belief? Jonathan grew up in the Boston Massachusetts area and then, after doing his undergraduate studies in California began to travel to several countries. He came back to the U.S. and attended UC San Diego where he received his Master’s degree and his PHD. He will tell us about that.

After learning a bit of Jonathan’s history he and I begin talking about his career and, specifically, why he left academia after 20 years to begin a fulltime coaching, consulting and speaking career. He and I discuss much about the kind of coaching he does and we talk about a number of lessons he gives that I think will benefit all of us. I hope you agree.

In addition to his other accomplishments Jonathan is an author. He also has a keen interest in dance. In fact, we found him in Portugal preparing for a dance festival and contest.

Jonathan offers many life thoughts and lessons during our hour together. I think you will find his discussion and thoughts down to Earth and useful. Please let me know your thoughts.

About the Guest:

Dr. Jonathan Marion believes that when we LIVE, CONNECT, & COMMUNICATE authentically, we send out ripples…. which send out ripples…which make the world a more caring and connected place, one ripple at a time. Having seen this dynamic over 20+ years as an award-winning cultural anthropology professor and author, Jonathan feels that how we show up is the key to living deeply meaningful and fulfilling lives – and now works as a transformational life coach, consultant, and speaker to be a catalyst for exactly such transformations.

Jonathan is passionate about supporting clients and audiences in transcending external accomplishments as measures of success to live truly aligned, rewarding, and meaningful lives. As a coach, consultant, and speaker, Jonathan draws on decades of experience teaching classes such as "Culture & Medicine" and "Body & Identity" to diverse audiences, has presented on "Coaching Beyond DEI" for the Fellows at the Institute of Coaching at McLean Hospital, Harvard Medical School, and is trained in Emotional Intelligence, Group Coaching, Positive Psychology Coaching, Clear Beliefs Coaching, and Body-oriented Coaching.

Overlapping his coaching and academic work in powerful and unexpected ways, Jonathan is also passionate about and has worked as a photographer and partnered dance instructor, now primarily focusing on Brazilian zouk.

Ways to connect with Dr.Jonathan :Website: https://stepsalongtheway.globalLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jonathan-s-marion/

About the Host:Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.

Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children’s Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association’s 2012 Hero Dog Awards.

https://michaelhingson.comhttps://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/https://twitter.com/mhingsonhttps://www.youtube.com/user/mhingsonhttps://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/

accessiBe Linkshttps://accessibe.com/https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBehttps://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/

https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/

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Transcription Notes:

Michael Hingson 00:00Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us. Michael Hingson 01:21Hi there, and welcome to another episode of unstoppable mindset. Glad you're with us really appreciate you taking the time to listen, hope you enjoy what you hear. And if you do, please give us a five star rating. And I'd love to hear your thoughts about it. Dr. Jonathan Marion believes that when we live, connect and communicate authentically, we send out ripples, which send out ripples. And that makes the world a better and more caring and connected place one ripple at a time, which is an interesting concept. And I can buy that. I've always believed that we plant seeds, but whether it's seeds or ripples, that amounts to somewhat the same thing. And the idea is you you never know what's going to happen from what you do. But when you're doing it in a caring and connected and authentic way, it's got to be a positive thing. And that helps make the world a better place. And Jonathan was a cultural anthropologist and still is trained as a cultural anthropologist. He's now a life coach. And he's also a guest here on unstoppable mindset. If you haven't guessed. So Jonathan, welcome to unstoppable mindset. We're glad you're here. Dr. Jonathan Marion 02:28Thank you so much, Michael. It's a pleasure to be here. Michael Hingson 02:31Well, lots obviously to think about and talk about, and we'll get to a lot of it. But I'd like to start with what I always think is kind of fun. Tell us about the early Jonathan, you know, growing up in some of those things that kind of led you a little bit to where you are or where you started, or whatever. Dr. Jonathan Marion 02:47You're, I had grown up just outside of Boston, Massachusetts, and sort of had one parent who was religiously observant, one who was more secular. And so I've sort of always lived somewhat in two different worlds. And I think that really set me up to then later on, as I went into academia, always be interested in social sciences. And just what did people think about and do the same and why and what did people think about and do differently and why. And then, after undergrad, I spent some time traveling, overseas, volunteered on a communal farm in Israel, traveled to several other countries. And when I got back to the States, and was starting to apply to different graduate programs, I ended up applying to eight schools. But after the fact, I realized it was an eight different disciplines and decided I needed a big umbrella. And that's where cultural anthropology came in. And it seemed like the biggest umbrella to me. And always having that sort of living in two worlds insider and outsider perspective, really took me down that track of becoming a cultural anthropologist. And so where did you do your undergrad work? My undergrad was at the University of Redlands in California, and I doubled majored in psychology and political philosophy at the time. Michael Hingson 04:14Cool. Well, you were in a place that had pretty decent climate overall. Dr. Jonathan Marion 04:22Absolutely, I'm a sun worshiper and was happy to get out of New England as nice as it is culturally, weather wise Southern California suited me much better Michael Hingson 04:32it is I hear you living here having lived in winter mass for three years and spent a good amount of time in the Massachusetts area. Love it, appreciated the snow and then later I lived in New Jersey of course also but I like the the weather of California course. I'm still convinced that the best weather in the country of San Diego but everybody likes what they like. Dr. Jonathan Marion 04:55I have to agree with you about San Diego and that's actually where I did both My masters and my PhD was at UC San Diego law. They're in La Jolla. Yep, you got it. Yeah. Michael Hingson 05:06Which is a wonderful place to be. So you got your PhD in cultural anthropology when you've settled on your umbrella and discipline, which is pretty cool. And then what did you do? Dr. Jonathan Marion 05:20Yeah, so specifically, the PhD was a subfield of cultural anthropology with psychological anthropology. So that permeable border between personality and culture. And for about six years after that, I was working as contingent faculty teaching part time at multiple campuses in the San Diego area. And then a lot of my work ended up in the field of visual anthropology. So both studying visual phenomena and culture, everything from architecture to performances, but then also the use of visual media to convey understandings that weren't amenable to words alone, and got hired as a visual anthropologist at the University of Arkansas, where I worked for over a decade before resigning from academia at the end of 22. Well, Arkansas Michael Hingson 06:11is quite the distance away from Southern California, different different weather, Dr. Jonathan Marion 06:17different climates and multiple ways. Yeah, Michael Hingson 06:20well, that's true. That is true. Definitely different climates and multiple ways. Well, so you decided in 2022, to leave academia? Why did you decide that? Dr. Jonathan Marion 06:32Yes, so the decision actually started back in 2019, it was the end of 22. When I actually resigned, I was for the first half of 2019, in Brazil, doing research on sabbatical. And one of my best friends who lives in Rio de Janeiro, I was staying at his house, and very generously, my friend Toronto gave me you know, a small bedroom to use while I was there. And I was sitting in his living room one day, and it's not one of the touristy parts of Rio, it's one of the areas where only, you know, local people live. And I realized I was living in a bedroom that was smaller than my closet at home. But I felt more at home. And I started to ask myself, What was that about? And I realized that my very good friends in Brazil knew what I did professionally. And they were proud of me, they were proud for me. But they didn't really care. They loved me as Jonathan. And that was a type of connection and interpersonal warmth, that I was never going to get as long as I was in an arena where it was all about external accomplishments and achievements. And that's what had me realized that I needed to start exploring other options outside of academia. Michael Hingson 07:54What was the significance of the small bedroom? Why did you feel comfortable? There? Are why was that significant? Dr. Jonathan Marion 08:02Yeah, so it was just on its own, it didn't mean anything to me, I've traveled, you know, off and on throughout most of my life. And sometimes you have a big place, sometimes a little place. But it was just recognizing that it wasn't about the external measure, it was, this is a very small, humble bedroom, that smaller than the closet of my master suite at my own house. And yet, I feel more at home in this small space. But because of the quality of the relationships, it wasn't about the space, it was about the place that was made by the relationships that were there. Michael Hingson 08:37Make sense? And then, of course, surrounding yourself, or having the opportunity to be surrounded by people who really care about you, who value you has to be something that's extremely positive and brings a lot of joy and a lot of comfort in a lot of ways. Dr. Jonathan Marion 08:57Absolutely. And it was part of the thinking then of, you know, what are the options, I have to live in a way where that's what's prioritized, and not the you know, sort of publish or perish paradigm? Yeah, in academia in a tenure track position with tenure by that point. And I didn't want to be living in a setting where it was just about what are your latest, you know, publications and presentations, and funding, and just those external measures of worth? Michael Hingson 09:35Yeah. And it's so unfortunate that we put so much emphasis on a lot of those things. It goes beyond just academia and so on. I know many people who talk about companies and talk about the businesses they were in I actually had a chance recently to talk to a man who is was a hotelier for 25 years. And he talks now about the time of the pandemic, and what has happened to hotels and the travel and tourist industry since then. And he said, it's gotten very cold, people don't value things the same way. It's all about how much money are we pulling in. And that's all there is to it, rather than necessarily putting as much emphasis on the guest as we used to, or even more important, putting as much emphasis on the employees as we used to. So he's actually creating a new structure, that he wants to start in the hotel industry, that would create an environment where the employees, assuming a particular hotel, under this umbrella would would profit that the employee should get part of the profits. And so he wants to institute a profit sharing thing, just kind of amazed me that I hadn't ever heard of that in the hotel industry as such before, don't know whether it ever was there. But his point was, people are going to be a lot more fun, people are going to be a lot more joyous and make guests feel more welcome. If they're feeling welcome and a part of what they're doing. Dr. Jonathan Marion 11:12Absolutely, it's the basic idea of you know, if people are proud of what they do happy about what they do invest in what they do. For them, it's employment, but they're the ones who are actually providing the experience directly to the guests. Michael Hingson 11:29Yeah, I mean, it's a job, yes, it's a job. But it can either be a fun job and a job you like, or it's just a job that brings in money, which means that you're not putting the same amount of commitment and, and joy and love into it. Absolutely, which is, you know, something that makes a lot of sense to understand. Well, so you decided to take the plunge and leave academia and do what? Dr. Jonathan Marion 11:57So I thought about it. And at least in the model in the United States, as a tenured faculty member, 40% of your job is research. And it was like, okay, I'm good at academic research and publishing, but I don't love it. So I don't want to do that. 20% is professional service. So professional leadership. And you know, I've been President of national organizations good at it, but I don't love it. And 40% is teaching. Within that, though, so much of it is following the sort of top down assigned learning outcomes and things like that. And the part of teaching that I always loved was the informal parts, the 15 minutes before or after class where students had their own questions about how different ideas we were talking about applied in their lives, or to circumstances they had heard about, or working with my graduate students, my MA and my PhD students, where I don't run a lab, it's not about you're doing a sub project of mine, it's, I'm helping you figure out what are your questions, and how you're going to find answers for yourself to your own questions. And the more I thought about that, that was life coaching. So I've ended up shifting over into the space of transformational life coaching, consulting and speaking as a result. Michael Hingson 13:23You know, I've been in sales. Basically, most all of my adult life, I learned a lot about sales from a Dale Carnegie sales course that I needed to take, because I had been given a choice of leaving a company from doing non sales type stuff, either leaving the company or going into sales, and, as a result, wanting to learn about it. And what I learned is that the best salespeople really are teachers. And what that means is that they love what they do, but they also know that they have to oftentimes teach customers, what they're selling, and why they're selling it. And even analyze, does that product work for you, and also having the courage oftentimes to be honest enough to say, that won't work, or this is, why it will or whatever. And I find that to be the most rewarding thing that I've ever been able to do in sales. And of course, since September 11, now I get to sell life and philosophy. So it still amounts to the same thing, but now selling the concepts from the other side, but I hear exactly what you're saying about teaching and the real important parts of teaching and we, we put so many stringent requirements that don't really add a lot of value, that it makes it a lot more difficult. One of the things that I've learned as a manager is my best job as a manager is not to boss somebody around, but rather how can I add value to make sure that You are being as successful as you can be. And we have to figure out ways to work together. And I found that the salespeople who really got that concept, were very successful because we've had off each other, we worked together, I added value to what they did, the people who didn't get it, and who wouldn't be open to maybe looking at doing some things differently that might have enhanced them didn't succeed nearly as well. And again, it's all about teaching. Dr. Jonathan Marion 15:25Makes total sense to me. So Michael Hingson 15:27it was, it was a lot of fun to do. So you've just been doing coaching for this year, basically, Dr. Jonathan Marion 15:35I had actually started doing it within the last few years of being in academia, it was just that I was also still working as an academic through the end of 22. And so now full time, I'm doing the coaching and consulting and speaking on related topics. Michael Hingson 15:57Where's home for you now? Dr. Jonathan Marion 15:59Actually, since beginning of 21, no beginning of 20. Yeah, beginning of 22. Sorry, I've been a full time nomad. Okay. So I, because I'm now doing the coaching and not the academics, I don't have to be in one location. And so taking advantage of that to get to travel a lot more, especially as I'd mentioned before that in the first half of 22, I'd been down in Brazil, doing research. And also part of my research was on the dance form of Brazilian Zouk. But then, in November of 2019, I'd had a bad spinal injury and nerve damage. And for five weeks, I couldn't even roll over on a side. I mean, I was close to paralyzed. And I was just starting to walk unassisted again when the pandemic hit. And so as someone who used to always travel and used to be very involved in movement, once I had the opportunity to not be tied down to the location of the university, I've really been traveling a lot to get back into dancing and training and just interacting with people in different places. And a way that I wasn't able to when I was linked to a job that was very location based. Michael Hingson 17:21So you don't really have a formal house or anything at this point. Nope, have Dr. Jonathan Marion 17:26nots. In almost two years right now, I will actually be aiming to return to having a home base somewhere, probably in the second quarter of 24. And looking to relocate my home base actually over to Portugal. Michael Hingson 17:47Not Santiago, but that's okay. Yeah, but Dr. Jonathan Marion 17:50if you look at, you know, geographic parallels southern Portugal, the Algarve is basically the San Diego region of the European continent. So that works for me. Michael Hingson 18:03I've not been to Portugal, I've been to Spain, but not to Portugal. But I understand what you're saying. But I love San Diego still so much. I, I was a nomad a little bit for a job back in 1976, because I was hired to work with the National Federation of the Blind and Ray Kurzweil and developing a reading machine for the blind. And literally, I lived out of suitcases in hotels for 18 months to work at various sites. So I'm familiar with the concept. I think that doesn't work for me as much. Now I like to be in one spot. And I think for me, probably a good thing with all the things going on. And the fact that the pandemic is still around, it's good to be able to lock down in a comfortable place. But again, that's me. And that's now a long time later from what I did before. But I uproot, but I appreciate the fun and the value of Dr. Jonathan Marion 18:59it. Yeah, absolutely. And I think there's part of me that again, it's probably linked to the cultural anthropology, like I do, like just encountering people where they live and I don't love doing the travel version, where I just hit tourist sites, I like to actually, you know, sort of situate myself where local people live and spend, you know, a couple of weeks there and just really get the feel of what is life like here and that just I find that very interesting and enriching, rewarding to just start to understand what it's like for people in different locations. And what did people still think about and do in similar ways and what in different ways, and that they all make sense. Michael Hingson 19:45As a public speaker, I have always enjoyed times when I could interact with people, not just who set up an event but really talk with the people in the area where the events taking place. And again, not the tourist as you point out, but the people who live there. And I've learned to value, for example, every part of this country, because I find that if you're friendly to people, again, going back to the ripple concept, if you connect in our friendly, I find that people are in fact, once I spent time in New York over several months, a number of times, and I was it was back when 42nd street and all the area around times square wasn't as nice as it is today. And people would say to me, aren't you worried about being outside? And I go, why? Uh, well, you know, there are some not nice people, I said, Well, only if you don't treat them nicely. And I found that I personally was able to get along with everyone. I never did get up to Harlem and spend time there, although I still would like to do that. But I've been to some pretty rough areas, and I find that people aren't going to bother you and be obnoxious to you, if you don't bother them or not obnoxious to them. And if you treat them well, they're going to treat you well. I've always believe that. Dr. Jonathan Marion 21:12I think you know, in general, that's so true in general. Yeah, no, I mean, obviously, everywhere, there are exceptions, as a way of going about things that makes so much sense to me. And just going back to that ripples idea. So many of us have heard of ROI, as you know, return on investment, the version that I heard that's always resonated for me is ripples of impact. So whatever I'm doing, however, I'm showing up, I'm looking for ripples of impact. And with that idea of, you know, it then impacts other people and who knows what ripples they then send out and how that impacts other people. And that's why I think that's so important for creating a more caring and connected world. Michael Hingson 21:59And it is about caring, and showing that you care. And showing that you care is an enlarged part of how you treat people and how you act and react around people. It isn't something where you got to show great care by giving a Contribution to somebody for $1,000 or something, it really still gets down to basically connection, doesn't it? Absolutely. Yeah. And I think that makes a lot more sense. So what do you do now? In terms of your job as a transformational life coach and consultant? And what do you speak about? Probably all related? Dr. Jonathan Marion 22:36Yep, absolutely. I primarily work with professionals who are accomplished by external measures, but find themselves wanting to live connect and communicate more authentically, in order to live more meaningful and fulfilling lives. And this really goes back to that idea that how we show up matters, and whether as individuals or as groups, communities, organizations, and so now I do my work as a coach, consultant speaker to really be a catalyst for exactly such transformations. Michael Hingson 23:13So where do you speak, Dr. Jonathan Marion 23:17really anywhere that people are interested. So it's been to some nonprofits, it's been in house, to some different organizations, it's been at a couple of retreats. And if people find the topics, or subjects that I am interested in and feel like I can really add some value as compelling for them, then I don't want to just go around and repeat my message, I want to find out, how will it be valuable and most valuable to you and your people or your audiences, and to really try and tailor it accordingly. Michael Hingson 24:03And I think that's the only way to really be a successful speaker. As I tell people when they're talking to me about speaking somewhere, I customize every talk, I really want to know what you're looking for What messages do you want to send, because I think it's extremely important not to get locked into just giving some speech every time. Everyone wants to hear the September LeBrons story. But what I get to do is surround that with content that's specifically relevant and I think that's the only way to do it. Absolutely. And it's more fun. Dr. Jonathan Marion 24:40Absolutely, because I already know my own stories and my own background, and I get bored if I'm just repeating it as if it's, you know, rote memorization, but when it's how can I meet you where you are and share what I have to share in a way that actually matters and has an impact for you. That's why I'm doing it, it's not to hear myself say the same thing again. Yeah. Michael Hingson 25:04And there are going to be parts of it, that will be saying the same thing again. But it's more fun when you can put it in a context that people appreciate. I love to know that I'm drawing an audience in. And I've learned in my speeches, to sometimes use some specific kinds of things that have taught me when I say something, if the audience is really connected, they'll react in a certain way. And when I hear that, then I know I'm really connected. And if I don't hear that, then I need to go figure out what to change as I'm talking with them to draw them in. Because I think we don't talk or we shouldn't view ourselves as talking to an audience. We should be talking with an audience. Absolutely. And it's a different context. But it was always the same way. For me when I was teaching in academic settings. I was never someone who wanted to stand in front of a classroom and just, you know, essentially project Yeah, profess information. It was, you know, how can I meet you where you are, and ignite your passion and figure out where I can add value by helping you understand more than you could on your own? Not just delivering content? It's adding value once again. Absolutely. I had a calculus professor who came in every day, and he just started writing on the board. And he said, From this, we get, and it turned out that what he was really doing was just parroting what was in the book was calculus and analytic, analytic geometry by Thomas. Anyway, he just parroted the book. And he mostly just wrote on the board, and I counted one day, he said, 50 words during the whole class. And every time when he wasn't saying anything, I'd raised my hand. And I kept saying, Would you, please describe more of what you're doing, and it was like pulling teeth to get him to do it. But as the year went on, he got a little bit better. And students in the class that was freshman college, students were mocking him, one guy brought in a helium balloon with a paperclip. So he could put it at a height and he would just push it up in front of the professor. And the professor turns around, and this balloons right in front of him, and he's lecturing to the balloon doesn't even react to it, and other things happen during the class. But I got him finally to do more talking than he did at the beginning. And then at the end of the year, I passed, I got an A in calculus, but he called me into his office, and I'm going, Oh, what happened? Now? I go in, and he said, I gotta tell you, I really appreciate you and what you did, because I could not understand why students were really not interested in what I had to say. And he said, I realized that I wasn't talking. I wasn't engaging with them. And when I started doing that, it made a world of difference. And it does, it's all about connecting again. And so yeah, it's it's again, it's kind of one of those things. So what kind of clients do you get? And kind of? What have you been able to do? I'd love to hear a story about how you've helped change someone in the way they work. Dr. Jonathan Marion 28:16Sure. So again, I primarily work with people who are accomplished by external measures. And so accomplished could mean anything, because it could be anyone from a school teacher to a CEO, I'm just talking about in whatever field they are. If you look at it as an outsider, you say, yeah, they're good at what they do. They're, you know, not someone who's just breaking into the field or switching. And it's sort of what I lived myself, right. I was accomplished in academia. I was award winning, you know, author and lecturer. But it wasn't something where I truly felt like I was leading a meaningful and fulfilling life. And so I think, a lot of coaching, you know, when it's done well, you're speaking from your own experience in your own journey, probably most good speaking as well. And so a great example. Charles Davidson is the founder of a nonprofit, which is now rebranded and that came about through my coaching with him. It had a different name before but it's now innovations and peacebuilding International. And in coaching with him, we really got a lot of clarity about, you know, what he was doing as an academic, what he was doing with his nonprofit, where things were in his personal life and what were the things that really mattered to him. And he just got so much clearer on, you know, where he was, where he wanted to be, how he wanted to get there, what he needed to do to start that we base simply did a six month coaching engagements. And part of my calling myself a transformational life coach is, I'm not looking to be your coach for two or three years. I'm always available to you for support at any point. But I want to equip you to change things to transform, and be able to go forth on your own. And so when I followed up with him three months after we finished our coaching engagement, he told me that they had three times as much in the bank for the nonprofit, as they had when we started. He and I never talked about money strategies. That's not what I coach on. But he got so much clarity about what he was doing that he restructured the board, he renamed the nonprofit. And then when I followed up with him later, a year after we finished, they had 10 times in the bank, we also never spoke about physical fitness. I'm not a coach for that. But when I talked to him, at the end of our engagement, he said he dropped 15 pounds, just because he was so clear on what he was doing the life he wanted to live, what mattered to him, that it just happened. And so those are the types of transformations that I really am always looking to make. And it's not to say that the results will be the same for everyone. But if I can really walk beside you holding a flashlight to help you decide which direction you want to go, then that's what my job is. Yeah. Michael Hingson 31:30And that makes so much sense. And the issue really is that you need to if you're being coached, or if you're looking at yourself, it's important to really look at yourself and to think about what you're doing, and do self analysis. Because even you as a coach, you can't change someone, they have to do it, they have to want to do it. But all you can do is to help show them the way but it all comes down to it seems to me that, that you have to as the individual involved, look at yourself, do some introspection, and make some decisions as to how to move forward. And that's something as you say, you don't always get the same results from people. But I would suspect a lot of times if it doesn't work out? Well. It's because they don't catch on to doing real self introspection and self examination. Dr. Jonathan Marion 32:22Absolutely. And so the parallel I gave earlier to working with, you know, especially say my PhD students, my job is to help you get clarity on what are your questions to help you get clarity on? How are you going to find answers to your own questions. And so it's the same thing as a life coach, I'm helping you figure out what are the things that you really want to figure out for yourself? And how are you going to go about doing that for yourself? If I just give you a paint by numbers? What what do you care about that? Why should you care about that? It's nice, but it's nothing about what matters to you. Michael Hingson 33:01Right? And you won't progress and you won't value it. And even if something sort of accidentally happens, and you're sitting there going, well. Why did that happen? What what accidentally made that happen, and you don't catch on to what really is involved. And what's really important, Dr. Jonathan Marion 33:19is exactly your life isn't transformed, which means I really haven't done that much to support you as a person. And Michael Hingson 33:27that doesn't mean that it's your fault as the coach, if someone isn't really willing to take the time to think and analyze for themselves. And I am such a fan of introspection, I think that people should take time every evening before they fall asleep to think about themselves in their lives and what they did today, how did this go? Why could this have been better? Or could it have been better and all of that? If we really take a hard look, it isn't such a hard look, once you really start to practice it. Dr. Jonathan Marion 34:00That's quite true. And at the same time, I'm not the best coach for every person, right? We all have different styles. And so I want to have a conversation, whether it as a coach, whether I'm a consultant for you, whether I'm a speaker, if your organization is actually a good fit, and let's make sure that you have the best fit for you the same as I want that for myself. Michael Hingson 34:25So, I'm assuming that there are probably times that you felt you weren't the best fit for someone, do you help them find another coach or how does that work? Absolutely. So Dr. Jonathan Marion 34:35if I know someone in my network, who I think might be a better fit, than I absolutely make the direct recommendation, if I don't, but I know someone who might I ask if they want me to inquire and if either they don't or I don't know someone then I explained to them and describe to them what I think it sounds like they're looking for and any leads They have any suggestions for where they might be better suited to find someone who I think will actually support them? Michael Hingson 35:07Again, they have to really want to do it. But you don't have control over that. No. Which is, which is understandable? Well, you know, in, in our world today, we have a lot of social pressure to achieve and be successful. And whatever that may mean, but how do we deal with the reorg? How can we reorganize and change what we do to deal with all of the social pressures? And you talked about that in terms of what you had to do as an academic and the pressures that were there with publisher perish and other things like that? How do we change that? Dr. Jonathan Marion 35:53Yeah, so I think there's two really important pieces to that. And I thank you for the question. So I think the first piece that is really important is to understand that as human beings, we only have one nervous system. And it was one that was evolved to deal with, you know, short term, high stakes, life and death types of threats. And so, you know, fight or flight, or then if you've had in the freeze or fawn responses, you know, those are all evolutionarily developed to deal with major confrontational situations, like, you know, go around the corner, and there's a big barrier there. Well, yeah, that gives you this huge spike of all these stress hormones, so that you can respond and deal with it. But the situation then resolves itself, and then all of those hormones can drain out of your system. Whereas the things that we get stressed about today, are ongoing. They're the traffic, there's the competing pressures between different relationship responsibilities and work responsibilities, and coworkers who may or may not be doing what you think they're part of a project is, and so when do we ever have a chance for that to all sort of dissipate? And we really don't? And I think that that's a large part of the problem. And so then how do we reorient and focus, I think, is about shifting from concentrating on, you know, achieving from the what, from the doing to the how in the being. And so an expression I heard when I was younger, that has always stuck with me, is life is only 10%, how we make it, but it's 90%, how we take it. And I think we can always ask and choose how we want to be whether more generally such as if I take this job, how do I want to be in this job? If I have these people in my social network? How do I want to be with them? Or it can be in a given moment or situation such as, how do I want to be in this given conversation in this given negotiation. And that's something we can always choose? Michael Hingson 38:20Interesting way to put it in that it is a choice. There's so much social pressure to do and achieve and so on. Typically, why does that cost so much stress? And we put ourselves in that position, a lot of the time, why does it cost so much stress? Dr. Jonathan Marion 38:38Yeah, so again, I think that goes back to the fact that there isn't a secondary nervous system for social pressure. And so we don't have a second nervous system. That's different for the ongoing lower stakes social interactions. And as such, we have this constant pressure of doing an achieving that leaves our brains swimming in this stew of stress hormones. And again, it doesn't dissipate, if there's a big bear. Either I get away, I bonk it on the head with a rock, I freeze and it loses interest. And then all of that goes out of my system. And we don't have that. And I also think this is where the issue of social support versus access starts to show up as very narrow models of what counts as achieving get used very indiscriminately. So you've spoken about some of this dynamic before and that you know, what counts is a disability is actually a social issue. So why for instance, is it a disability when someone in a wheelchair can't reach something on a high shelf unassisted? But it's not a disability when it's a young child unable to reach the same item or a sharp person? Sure, absolutely. And the point is that it's really, you know, what are the frameworks because as human beings, we're social organisms, we're social beings. And so do we actually feel like we belong, like there's support, like there's allowances, or not. And so a great example of this from my former career in cultural anthropology comes from an ethnographic film, the bird dancer, and the film showcased is ghostie, you sort of teeny, who's a young Balinese woman with what we in the West would label as Tourette syndrome. And as the film shows, so powerfully, the actual cause of her suffering is not her symptoms, but it's the attitudes of those around her who feel she should be different. And I think that's really the key to this. Anytime you have a should you're fighting with what is. And so I think if anytime, we can catch ourselves saying should weather about, I should work out more, I should eat healthier, my boss should recognize my work, my partner should acknowledge my contributions. If we just replaced that with could, I could eat healthier, I could work out more, my boss could recognize my efforts. I could have my efforts recognized by my partner, then we can say, okay, but am I or am I not? And then I can choose how I want to be coming back to that issue of Michael Hingson 41:33choice. And you can also say, Okay, I can't do that I could do that. How do I do it? And it gets back to analysis and examination again? Dr. Jonathan Marion 41:43Absolutely. And it goes back to that how versus just the what? Michael Hingson 41:47Now, I'm not an expert on bears, but my mindset and my mental attitude also says, gee, is there any chance to become friends with the bear? And I don't know the answer to that. Dr. Jonathan Marion 42:03I don't either. And again, I'm talking at the very general level about what is our nervous system primed for that said, you know, if it's a bear that's grown up around humans who are not a threat to it, then chances are that it's not going to be that dangerous, unless it's provoked. Michael Hingson 42:25Or unless you just exude fear and animal sense that, and then the result is that that has some impact on it, I don't know. But I would presume that it's possible to become friends with a baron. Likewise, what it also means is, when you come across these things that are just overwhelming, you can learn and choose to let it overwhelm you or take a more strategic approach. I'm writing a new book, it's called Live like a guide dog, and it's about my growing up, and being surrounded by dogs. Basically, most all of my life, I started when I'm 14 with my first guide, dog, Squire. And it's about lessons I've learned. Because I realized at the beginning of 2020, I talked a lot about the past about the World Trade Center, and escaping without being afraid, but I've never really taught anyone how to do that. And so this book is going to start to work to teach people how to control fear, and how to use fear as a very powerful tool to assist you rather than allowing yourself to be as I say it blinded by or overwhelmed by fear. Dr. Jonathan Marion 43:46Nice, that sounds super interesting. I look forward to reading it. Michael Hingson 43:49It'll be out next July or August. It's we've got a publisher, and they've been working on it. And we've even gone through the copy editing and all that. And there's another round coming up of that. But it's, it's kind of fun. And every time we get the book back, they either have questions, or we find a few little things to tweak. That's okay. I understand that's part of the publishing process. We did that with underdog when wrote that in 2011. But fear is is a very powerful tool that can be the bear or it can be a nice, friendly puppy dog. That nevertheless, can be something that you have to deal with, but you can which will be kind of fun to you know, to get through. So in general, how would you advise people or what would you advise people about dealing with the overwhelming kinds of conditions and stresses that we face? How do you help people change what they do and become more able to cope with that? Dr. Jonathan Marion 44:56Yeah, so I really sort of break it down in my head to sort of three categories. And so the first one I had mentioned briefly, which is I think it's so important to start with what actually is. So not the stories we tell ourselves not the internalized projections. But so first and the one I already mentioned is could not should, because again, anytime I'm saying something should be a certain way, I'm fighting with what actually is. The second one is recognizing responsibility, and not blame. So for example, if someone's supposed to pick up their kids at school, but there's, you know, an accident and they can't get there, they're not to blame for not picking up their kids. But that doesn't mean they're not responsible. So then they need to make some phone calls and arrange for it to happen. And so I think all too often when we're dealing with, whether it's other people, or even how we talk to ourselves, we always go to blame. And that's not constructive versus responsibility, which then invites. Okay, so now what do I need to do or what needs to happen. And the third part of that, starting with what is framework is interest, not intention. And I'm not talking about for ourselves, it's one thing to have an intention of, here's what I want to do, here's how I want to show up. When we're dealing with other people, if we're dealing with them with an intention of how they're going to respond, that's not fair, because they're going to respond however they do. And if it's, I'm going to show up in the way I want to, I'm going to do what I think is appropriate, or is authentic to me, and I'm interested to see what comes from that I'm interested where that takes us, that's very different from I have an intention for how someone else is going to respond, or how a situation is going to unfold. So those are the three parts for me of starting with what is the next part of the mental, you know, sort of model I use is the strategic level. And I use Bing as an acronym, and happy to go into any of it in more detail. But just to sort of give the umbrella level view, the first part, B of B for being is begin where you are. And I think all too often, people sort of rushed to where do they want to go? Well, you can't navigate on a map, if you don't know where you're starting your GPS can't guide you anywhere, if it doesn't have a signal that it can pinpoint where you are to begin with. E is for explore where you want to go. Because it's one thing to sort of say, oh, yeah, I'm gonna apply for the promotion. But why is it really what's going to suit you, maybe it's gonna give you more money, but does it take more time. So you can't actually spend the money for save the time with family, which is what you really wanted, right? The AI is for investigate your options. Because once you know where you are, and you know where you want to go, there's never just one way to get there. What are the different ways to get there, which ones have served you in the past, which ones appeal to you now, and really investigate that so that you figure out what's the best way for you. And is for now start because I think all too often we get trapped with trying to make sure it's all planned out perfectly. And and think about like the book you were just describing and I've you know, written books as well, if you wait for it to be perfect before you submit it to a publisher, it'll never get published. It's you start it, you get it to a point, you send it out. And then it's an iterative process to, to hone it in to be the best. And so starting is so important. And especially with the pressure to achieve the trap of perfectionism, so often prevents people from even starting. And the g of being is get your best life. And I don't mean that everything's done and it's complete. But all too often we're so busy chasing and trying to achieve that we don't actually recognize the changes we've made. We don't appreciate what we've learned along the way and how we're now equipped to always do that for ourselves going forward. So that's the second one, the strategic level. And the third and final part I use as sort of the tactical one. And it's the simple question, which I mentioned before of how do I want to be as a question because again, I can ask it, you know, bigger Situations, Relationships overall, I can ask it regarding this very conversation. And every once in a while life is so overwhelming or this stakes are so high emotionally, that even that gets challenging. And then I turned to a version of it that I labeled future casting. And so we've all had that situation where whether it's two hours from now, two weeks, two months, I go, Oh, I wish I had said I wish I had done. And so when it's really overwhelming, I asked myself, Okay, what does five year for me, Jonathan, wish I would have said or done right now? When I look back on this in the future, how will I have wanted to respond? And it may not be easy to do. But it's usually pretty simple to figure out. And once I know what that is, then that's what I do. And that's what I coach people. So start with what is strategically use the being model and then tactically, how do I want to be in future cast if necessary? Michael Hingson 50:52You ever get people who say, Gee, that sounds like a lot of work? And it's pretty complicated. Dr. Jonathan Marion 51:00Yes, ish. When you're just talking to people about like, what's involved, then sure I get that. But the whole point is, it's not, I write down a list of these things right handed to you and say, Come talk to me and half a year, it's, here's the model we're going to be following. But again, it's a model, it's a map, it doesn't mean that you're locked into anything. It's a framework. And just like any really expert cook, you know, they do it sort of on the fly, they know all of the strategies, but they can combine things on the spot. It's not No, I have to absolutely, you know, follow the written version through and through every single time. That's not the point. And so it's here's the model, but we're going to spend the time I'm going to be walking beside you shining that flashlight on each piece of this, so that you can just concentrate on figuring it out. I'm the one who has to hold the model in mind, I'm the one who has to make sure that it's working for you. And that we take longer where you need longer to process, and that the parts that you fly through, we don't stay spending time just because it's in the model. Michael Hingson 52:21What do you find, though, for people who follow the model who work with you, and you coach, as you go forward, and the more time you spend with them does adhering to the model or properly utilizing the model becomes easier for them because they're developing the muscle? Dr. Jonathan Marion 52:42Absolutely. And again, it's an acronym to make it easy to remember. And you know, it's up. The being one is up on my website. And you know, it's something we talk about. But again, if that language doesn't work for them, I don't care. It's not about the actual wording. It's just a framework, if they want to call it something else in their head, and that's what works for them. Then in our interactions, I'm going to use their language, I'm going to use sure if a framework works for them. It's just something that was really resonant for me. And the vast majority of people who I work with, they like it, and it has some resonance for them. But again, it's only a model, it's not anything that's cast in stone, it's not the answer to anything, right? Michael Hingson 53:36It's not the model. It's the concept. And it's However, anyone does it, it's it's still finding the way to get to address the issues that the model essentially brings up, whether you call it the model or use the language or whatever, it's still basically dealing with the concepts that you're trying to get people to understand. And, and analyze and do something with, right? Dr. Jonathan Marion 54:07Absolutely. And I think as a general framework, it makes sense to people like you begin where you are, you figure out where you want to go, you figure out how you're gonna get there. Once you have that you actually have to start. And the whole point is to get where you're going. Like, yeah, that's pretty easy. Michael Hingson 54:23Yeah. It's a concept and it makes perfect sense. So however, people want to phrase it and everybody likes to use their own words. So a lot of people do. That's okay. As you said, it's still the basic concept that you're really addressing. Dr. Jonathan Marion 54:37Absolutely. Michael Hingson 54:39So having been in the anthropology, academia world for a long time, how does that work into what you're doing now as a life coach? Dr. Jonathan Marion 54:51Yeah, it's really interesting because it informs it in ways that I didn't even realize it was going to when I was first training you As a coach, the one way that I think it shows up more than any other is, as a cultural anthropologist, when I go to study, you know, different cultural groups. The whole point is, I'm not the expert. I'm there to be a student and learn from them. Why they do things the way they do, how do they think about it? What does that framework do for them? And so that's what I do as a coach at an individual level. That's what I do as a consultant. With organizations, I'm not the expert in you, you're the expert and you, I'm here to learn, what's your framework, what's your model, and then just have the ability as an outsider to reflect that back, so that you can use that however you want to. So that's the biggest way. The next one is the idea of ethnocentrism. And so many people have heard of it. And there's sort of the popular version of taking for granted that your way is the best. Well, that's a problematic version. But it's not the most problematic because it's acknowledging that other people have other ways of thinking about and doing things. The insidious version is taking for granted, that your way of thinking about things or doing things is the only possibility. And so I can the same way as I would teach, you know, students about ethnocentrism, I can do the same thing with different clients, it's, well, maybe the way you think about it isn't the best maybe the way you think about it isn't the only one. I'm not trying to present any other specific version, but just give that framework for maybe there are other ones, which then comes up to that idea of cultural relativism, which is that how different people think about and do things is what makes sense from within their own framework. And I think the underlying idea here is no one on the planet wakes up in the morning, and says, This makes no sense. I'm going to do it that way. They may think the options that they are aware of are all bad ones, but they're still picking the one that they think is least bad. And so it's understanding that there is a logic to what everyone does. And so if rather than coming with an accusatory How could you think that I can do it from genuine curiosity of how can you think that because there's clearly a way to do it, then I can understand different frameworks, and take them as seriously as the ones I'm more familiar with. And I can work with you to help you be able to do that as well. The next one is sort of the holistic perspective, which is nothing is in isolation. Nothing is divorced from everything else. It's not necessarily connected to everything, but it's part of a bigger picture. And so while one thing may be troubling you or there may be one area in your life that you're looking to, you know, adjust or there may be one part of the business that doesn't seem to quite be coming together the way you want. The fact is, it's still linked to other ones, and let's look at where it fits in. So that we're really addressing the whole system and not just a piece in isolation. And the next one would be the idea of generalizations versus stereotypes. And I take this from a medical anthropologist, Marianne Galante, who the human brain recognizes patterns. That's part of what we're good at. But the difference that she's drawing is, a stereotype is saying, I know something about you. And that's the end of what I am thinking, I think I then know everything. A generalization is saying, Oh, I know something, I recognize a pattern. It's the beginning, I asked, might this be applicable to you? So say, someone who's a patient in a hospital setting? And I know their religious background, rather than saying, Oh, you're from this background, therefore, I know what your dietary restrictions are. I say, Oh, I see you're from this background, are these restrictions are actually things that we need to look at for you. And so it's using it as a beginning point, not as an ending point. And the final one would be around different types of isms. And you know, people can have prejudice in every single direction. But the idea is that there's a difference between just having prejudices versus prejudices plus power. And so really recognizing power differentials. And you know, how those show up are things that especially with some of my consulting work, I can really lie you know, rely on my anthropology background to help, you know, point out where those things may be exerting an influence in ways that not everyone is aware of and therefore they can be much more intentional about how they're actually interacting with people and showing up and enter and you know, doing things. Michael Hingson 1:00:10I love being a student. And I feel that if I ever stop learning, then there's something wrong with me. And I love asking questions. And as I tell people in the sales world, I never liked to ask close, close ended questions. It always has to be open ended questions I don't like yes and no answers to things because I want more information. And I think it's important to always look that way. So I, I resonate with the things that you're saying, which are, I believe, really pretty cool. You mentioned disabilities earlier, which prompts something that I'm sure you've heard me talk about on some of the episodes you listen to tell me a little bit about diversity. And you talk about coaching beyond diversity? What do you think about diversity as a cultural anthropologist, and why do you talk about coaching beyond that? Dr. Jonathan Marion 1:01:02Absolutely. So I think we actually share some objectives on this. And so while I'm a cultural anthropologist, it's still under the larger umbrella of anthropology. And so I really want to borrow from some of the Biological anthropologists here. And so I look at human diversity the same way I do biological, the same way I look at biological diversity, it just is, it's a fact it exists. And then the question is, where do we go from there? Do we think and act in ways that appreciate respect and honor diversity? Or do we take it for granted ignore it, or even worse, denigrate or degrade it? So just as you can't grow every plant in the same conditions, not all people thrive in the same conditions, and just as bright direct light on one plant, you know, it needs to thrive with harm and other, so too, with any one size fits all approach to people. And so because of your work in this space, I'm sure you've heard, you know, the different versions of te di D, B be the one that I heard that made the most sense to me, and that I work with, and that I'm sort of referencing when I talk about coaching beyond diversity is JT di, or Jedi? And so growing up when I did, you know, the Jedi were the defenders of what was right in the universe. And the j stands for justice. And it's just what is the right thing to do. And it's about valuing and protecting all. And it's not, you know, PC for the sake of saying it. And one of the things I really, I'm not saying there's no value to it, but I really do get upset by it at the same time, is when I hear people talk about the positive business outcomes of being more aware and sensitive to these issues. Not that that doesn't matter. Not that those things aren't true. But I don't think the reason to take these things seriously is because of business outcomes alone, that should be a byproduct. If it's not about what's the just thing to do in the first place, then I think we have a bigger problem we need to address address as a society. The ie of Chad, I would be for equity, which is really the opposite of a one size fits all approach. So the same way as we don't grow, you know, all plants in the same environment. Rather, we look at what combination of soil type amount of sunlight and water each needs to thrive, we need to do the same thing for people. And all of that is about recognizing that diversity just is and so we need to respect and honor it. And if we do all of those things correctly, that's where we get to inclusion. And so where diversity is about recognizing uniqueness. Inclusion is about belonging. It's about recognizing and showing how each unique piece is equally important in completing a puzzle. Any one piece that's missing, the puzzle is incomplete. No one piece is more important to that than any other. Michael Hingson 1:04:14That gets to be the real issue, of course doesn't mean that's why with things like unstoppable mindset where our tagline is where inclusion, diversity in the unexpected meet, I put inclusion first because typically diversity in our discussions leaves out disabilities, which it shouldn't. So we talk about where inclusion, diversity in the unexpected meet really means that you're going to either be inclusive or you're not an inclusive means you have to include all things you can't kind of go part way well, we're partially inclusive, we deal with race. No, that's not really inclusion very well. It Dr. Jonathan Marion 1:04:51isn't. There's lots of different things. You know, we can add in neuro diversity to that. Well, I know when I was recovering From that spinal injury I mentioned to you, they had added a new glass door to the sort of suite where I had my visual anthropology lab. Well, they put the lock at floor level, because it was a glass door, and they didn't like the look of a lock at the handle level. Well, I was recovering from a spinal injury, I was using a walker, I can't get down to the floor level to unlock it. And it was something they added, which is how many years after, you know, the disability acts that all specify that any new thing needs to take in to account those different types of issues. I'm fortunate I was someone who that's not a permanent issue I have to deal with. But it was still shocking to me that, you know, despite the fact that there were federal laws about it, no blessing, aesthetically appealing to them, they didn't even take it into account. Well, of course, Michael Hingson 1:05:55as I've maintained, everyone has a disability. And for most of you, it's like dependence. And if the power goes out, and you're in a room somewhere, you immediately have major challenges. And, yeah, the light bulb has created light on demand that covers it up. But it doesn't negate the fact that it's still there. But it's amazing how many people just choose to not recognize that we're not nearly as inclusive as we should be. And we don't include enough people in the conversation. And it's something that does need to change. Absolutely. It's one of those things that it's a goal. And we'll we'll just continue to work toward it. Well, Jonathan, this has been a lot of fun if people want to reach out to you and maybe explore working with you or consulting. How do they do that? Dr. Jonathan Marion 1:06:40Absolutely. So the best place to get more information, hop on my schedule, fill out a contact request would be my website, which is stepsalongtheway.global so just one word, no punctuation steps along the way, dot global. I really, that's the name of my business steps along the way. Because I think where we are now is the steps we've taken. And the way to get the life you really want is to have intentionality about the next steps you take and dot global because I'm happy to work with people from anywhere and everywhere. And I travel enough that I might even be there. People are also welcome to reach out to me as far as direct email. And best way to do that would be sa t w again. That's first step along the way satwcoaching@gmail.com. Send me a direct email, and I will be happy to be in touch and figure out whether I'm someone who can add value to you. And if I can't help you figure out who could. Michael Hingson 1:07:53Super. Well thank you again for being here. And thank you for listening. We hope that you've enjoyed this. Please reach out to Jonathan, I think that it's pretty obvious he's got a lot to say that would be valuable and this valuable for all of us. I'm going to listen to this podcast a bunch of times I can tell you that. I'd love to hear your thoughts. And of course, again, we would appreciate a five star rating for unstoppable mindset. But if you'd like to reach out to me, I would love it. You can reach me at Michaelhi m i c h a e l h i at accessiBe A C C E S S I B E.com. Or go to our podcast page www dot Michael hingson.com/podcast. Michael hingson One word m i c h a e l h i n g s o n.com/podcast. So love to hear from you really would appreciate it. And Jonathan, once more. I really appreciate you being here and all the interesting and I think very exciting and profound thoughts you've given us and so thank you for doing it. Dr. Jonathan Marion 1:08:54Absolutely. My pleasure, Michael, thank you so much for having me. Michael Hingson 1:09:01 You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com . AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

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I have had the honor to talk with a number of career coaches, mindfulness advocates and experts as well as others who promote, in one way or another, introspection and self evaluation. Getting the opportunity on this episode to speak with Alicia Ramsdell who had considerable knowledge about all these subjects really puts many concepts into perspective. Alicia thought she wanted to be a veterinarian , but fairly quickly realized that, for her, animals was not a way to earn an income. She was, however, good in math and chose to begin a career in the executive recruiting industry where she worked for fifteen years.

In 2019 she left that field after deciding to take the leap to start her own business helping people to better understand themselves and their career choices. Her last four years of work not only have been personally and financially rewarding, but she found that working for herself in the Covid era worked well.

We talk about a number of topics including meditation, life choices, self analysis and introspection and what success really means. We discuss other things, but I will leave it to you to listen to hear everything. Near the end of our conversation we even learn why Alicia felt it was time to leave the executive career field and how difficult it was for her to really take the step to move on. I hope you enjoy our conversation. Lots of good snippets and lessons in life to hear.

About the Guest:

Alicia Ramsdell, a powerhouse career and mindfulness expert, TEDx speaker, and CEO of Mindful Career Path, LLC. With over 15 years of experience in Corporate America, Alicia has cultivated a life by design in Career Development roles, and is a Certified Career Services Provider, Global Career Development Facilitator, and certified in Mindfulness-Based Stress Reduction and Organizational Mindfulness.

Alicia provides invaluable insight into career development strategies, leveraging stress as a tool to elevate your life's work. She has three main priorities: captivating audiences as a keynote speaker, revolutionizing career development as a corporate partner for employees, and empowering individuals to achieve career fulfillment as a career coach. Her TEDx talk in York Beach, Maine, "Don’t be afraid to fail in the career of your dreams. Be afraid to succeed in the career of your nightmares," is an inspiring reminder to pursue your passions fearlessly.

As a Certified Career Services Provider (CCSP) and Global Career Development Facilitator (GCDF), Alicia provides a unique perspective on career development. Her focus on mindfulness, stress reduction, and career fulfillment sets her apart as an expert in the field.

Join Alicia on her mission to design fulfilling and mindful careers for all. Her experience in Corporate America and as a mindfulness expert gives her a unique perspective on career development. Whether you're an individual looking to achieve career fulfillment or a corporation looking to revolutionize your approach to career development, Alicia has the expertise to help you reach your goals.

Ways to connect with Jann:

TEDx Talk: https://youtu.be/bWCaTE0d2ww?si=EiJ77c2jjZtvwD0ZMindful Career Path’s Website: www.mindfulcareerpath.comAlicia’s LinkedIn Page: https://www.linkedin.com/in/aliciaramsdell/Mindful Career Path’s LinkedIn Page: https://www.linkedin.com/company/mindful-career-path/YouTube Link: https://www.youtube.com/@mindfulcareerpathInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/Mindful.Career.PathTwitter: https://twitter.com/Mindful_CareersFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/Mindful.Career.Path/

About the Host:Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.

Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children’s Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association’s 2012 Hero Dog Awards.

https://michaelhingson.comhttps://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/https://twitter.com/mhingsonhttps://www.youtube.com/user/mhingsonhttps://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/

accessiBe Linkshttps://accessibe.com/https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBehttps://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/

https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/

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Transcription Notes:

Michael Hingson 00:00Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us. Michael Hingson 01:21Welcome once again to an episode of unstoppable mindset. We're really glad you're here with us today. Thanks for joining us, we get to talk with today a mindfulness mindfulness expert. If I could talk I'd be in good shape, a TEDx speaker, and a person who I've really come to enjoy and get to know she also has a company mindfulness career path. We're gonna get to all of that as we go forward. But I'd like you to meet Alicia Ramsdell. Alicia, how are you? Alicia Ramsdell 01:51Mike? I'm doing great. Thanks so much for having me. Well, Michael Hingson 01:54thanks for being here. And Alicia lives in North of Boston. And as we were talking earlier, I lived in Winthrop, Massachusetts, and was there for three years and worked with a company in Cambridge, Massachusetts, Kurzweil Computer Products for a number of years in and around that. But I was in Boston in New York during the big blizzard of 78, which a lot of people don't remember, but it was quite the snowstorm and quite the time. Alicia Ramsdell 02:24I believe in I'm not going to tell you if I was born then or not, but that's okay. parents. My parents tell me about it. Michael Hingson 02:30Well, as I was mentioning, just before we came on, I used to frequent Durgan Park and Quincy Market, and I've heard that it closed down and Durgan Park was a restaurant that was very famous for family style, food and service. And they would not let you sit at one of the tables on the side for four people. Unless there were four of you. They made people sit in family style, and that was fine. But we went in one night there were several of us. Actually, I think there were only three of us. But I had my guide dog with me. At that time. It was Holland, my second guide, who was a wonderful, beautiful male golden retriever. And the hostess said, you know, just to make it easy. We're going to put you at one of the tables for four. And I said, Well, we're gonna get in trouble for that. And she said, No, you won't. Well, sure enough, the waitress came over and they're all trained to be real snots. And she said, You can't sit here. There are only three of you and you can't sit here and I said, well, the hostess said that we could sit here. No, she didn't. Yeah, she did. Because I have a guide dog. Oh, I'm not gonna fall for that. You don't have a dog. I don't see a dog. Well, Holland was well under the table. And the tablecloth came down, so she wouldn't have seen him. And she kept saying, No, you can't be here. And she walked away. And then she came back. She's there, you're gonna have to move. And I said, Look, there is a guide dog under the table. We were told we could sit here. She finally at least lift up the tablecloth. And there are these brown eyes looking out at her from under the table. And she goes, Oh, what a cute dog and she walks away and she comes back with a plate. Now Durgan Park was known for its prime rib and the prime rib was so large that it would hang over the sides of the plate sometimes anyway, she had this and she said a customer didn't finish it. Can I give it to the dog? For customer relations? I would normally say no. But I said Oh sure. So we made a friend for life. It was so funny because the nastiness went away. Alicia Ramsdell 04:23Nobody can be in a foul mood when they see a golden retriever. Yeah, Michael Hingson 04:27staring back at him. And Hollan was quite happy with prime rib. Well, that's our that's our Boston's that our busing story for the woman anyway, but I'm really glad that we have a chance to be here. So tell us a little about you. Maybe growing up in the earlier Alicia and all that stuff. Alicia Ramsdell 04:45Certainly. So as you mentioned, I grew up in and still live north of Boston, Massachusetts. And for a long time as a child I wanted to be a veterinarian, and I realized that myself actually I have a golden retriever. I've had three golden retrievers throughout my lifetime. So I've always really enjoyed having a pet. But as soon as I realized that veterinarians had to, you know, handle the surgery side of things, I knew that I couldn't stomach it. So I had to switch my thinking about where I would go, you know, Beyonds my childhood dreams of being a veterinarian. And as I moved on, I became really good at math. And my future took me to accounting and tax, and not as exciting as being a veterinarian, but there was a lot of job security around there. And the business program that I went through the school that I went to, had an excellent reputation. I made a lot of lifelong friends from there. And my career was 15 plus years in the accounting and tax industry. And although I really never loved what I was doing, I got to meet a lot of wonderful people along the way. And like I said, Before, I have the job security that comes along naturally with the tax and accounting, yes. But fast forward to the present day, I left the accounting and tax, accounting and tax industry in 2019. And I started my business mindful career path. And really what that stemmed from was, I saw a gap in the industry, or I should say, within corporate America, in general, of lacking career development conversations where people could feel that they could be vulnerable without any sort of backlash to it. A lot of people want to talk about developing in their careers, but sometimes with the internal resources, they were shy or hesitant to speak freely about where they were in their career, where they see things weren't working, or what was working. So I wanted to create a career development coaching business, where I would come in as the external consultant and have one on one confidential conversations with employees to help with their career development, allow them to be vulnerable in their conversations, and also add into that understanding their stress levels and helping them through mindfulness based stress reduction techniques. So that started in the beginning of 2020. And now towards the end of 2023. I really haven't looked Michael Hingson 07:34back since. Is your business at home? Alicia Ramsdell 07:38Yeah, remotely. Yeah. So which COVID was not a good thing? Yeah, the world. Yeah. But it worked out that the remote style of professionalism allows me now to work out of the comfort of my home. But at the same time, globally, so I have clients that are, you know, in Europe and the United States, and Asia, and sofa, and there's so much power and benefit to be able to work with people globally and understand the various cultures as well. Michael Hingson 08:12And that's why I ask the question, because you certainly were a lot more easily able to lock down then people since in the sense you are already working, where you live, so it was kind of easier probably to address that issue. Alicia Ramsdell 08:28Absolutely. And beyond COVID. If you think about it, a lot of individuals were experiencing overwhelming stress just because of the change in their regular lifestyle. So the combination of career development coaching, but with that mindfulness based stress reduction approach was extremely beneficial to any individual. And it didn't matter which industry they were in. Michael Hingson 08:56Yeah. Which, which makes a lot of sense. And you were certainly able to do that we locked down my wife had rheumatoid arthritis. So we really were very sensitive to it. But I mostly worked virtually and remotely. So I worked from home and continue to work from home. Except for when I'm traveling, obviously, but it makes a lot of sense. And the reality is, we can make working virtually or working from home as easy or as hard as we want. And it really is a choice. And the fact of the matter is it does work pretty well if we want it to to be able to work from home rather than always having to go into an office somewhere. Alicia Ramsdell 09:38Absolutely. And to add to that point, I certainly see the benefit of building relationships in person and the difference between you know, a virtual setting and an in person setting. But the flexibility like you said, that remote capability really allows us to grow leaps and bounds runs in our businesses as well as professionally when we want to connect with, you know, people halfway across the world. Michael Hingson 10:08You indicated that you're certified in mindfulness based stress reduction and organizational mindfulness. How do you get certified in that? Alicia Ramsdell 10:20Sure. So there, I don't know if you've heard of Jon Kabat Zinn, but he's kind of the godfather of mindfulness. And he started this program out of the UMass Medical School MBSR program, so Mindfulness Based Stress Reduction Program, and I started this program. And I think it was 2019. Now I'm forgetting this specific year, but through a recommendation of a friend of mine, who was going through previously, he had went through his own really overwhelming stressful moments in his world. And I was explaining to him, you know, this business, I was considering creating, and my own stressors in my life. And he recommended this program, and he said, it was life changing. So it was a pretty incredible program that I went through, it was a remote opportunity, but we learned, you know, various forms of meditation and mindfulness and so forth. So body scan meditation, we learned, you know, mindful eating, mindful walking, you know, you know, think it was chair yoga, and so forth. So there were a lot of opportunities there. And then this organizational mindfulness program really stemmed from it was sort of an extension of this MBSR program. And it had more of a focus around professionals in their, you know, corporate settings, and how you could apply these techniques within the corporate setting, or as a leader. Michael Hingson 11:50So what is mindfulness? If you were to define it, Alicia Ramsdell 11:55certainly, so not really my own definition, or something that I've learned through the teachings of Jon Kabat Zinn. But it's really being present in the current moment, non judgmentally. So you're aware of what's happening without judgment. And that's the a pretty basic definition. But it allows you to be in a moment, in a neutral state, if you can think of it that way. So whether there's highs or lows, whatever the environment calls for, you can be in that state, non judgmentally. Be in this neutral state, and be able to better reflect on it moving forward, then getting really high about it, or really low about it, and kind of making as you would call it, like a rash decision in the given moment in the heat of the moment. So that's the way that Jon Kabat Zinn explains it. And that's something that has resonated with me, thinking back to my own stressors. And I'll pause there for a moment. That's okay. Michael Hingson 13:00It, it seems to me that one of the things that is really important for people to think about is, especially in our world today, mindfulness relating to fear. How does mindfulness help one deal with fear and not as I would call it being blinded or overwhelmed by fear when something unexpected happens, or just with everything going on in the world. Alicia Ramsdell 13:23So I've, throughout my journey, if you're if you're thinking about fear, or like failures or setbacks, I developed this consistent mindfulness practice. And it's been instrumental in how I handle situations of fear, it really taught me the importance of being non judgmental, and fully present in those moments of, of setback of fear. And instead of pushing it away, or trying to avoid the emotions altogether, I've learned to sit with the emotions and allow myself to fully experience it. And what this does is it really creates a space for reflection and self awareness. And it enables you to gain some insights into what's the best way to move forward. And that's kind of a general theme. But that wasn't always the way I did things in my previous life, as I like to call it. I didn't have a meditation practice. So I used to rely on this notion that that failures or fear would eventually subside on its own. But as time went on, I realized that this approach only added more pressure to that situation. And it became so overwhelming in my life, that I started experiencing physical manifestations of this stress, you know, to the point where I felt like walls are closing in around me. So that that those points in my life is when I consciously made the decision to integrate mindfulness and meditation into my daily routine. And this shift really allows you a sense, allows you a way To cultivate a sense of calm and resilience, and when you do face these challenges when you do face these fears, and it can help you, throughout those fears, have a greater sense of clarity and not to become overwhelmed by those emotions, Michael Hingson 15:18this being mindful help you or would it help us to address the issue of, we're always trying to control everything. And the reality is we don't have control over everything in the world, and that we really need to focus on the things that we have control over as opposed to all the other stuff that we don't, that we let stress us out. Alicia Ramsdell 15:41Does that make sense? To repeat the question one more time. Michael Hingson 15:45When you talk about being mindful, and one of the things that comes to mind for me is that people are always trying are always stressed out because things are happening. And most of it is stuff they have no control over. Does mindfulness help. One focus on dealing with just the things that you do have control over and lessening the worry or eliminating the worry about all the things you can't control? Alicia Ramsdell 16:11So mindfulness from from that perspective, right, there are things you're right, that we can control. And there are things that we can control? Well, what mindfulness does is it allows you to be aware of what you can control and what you can't control. Because sometimes in life, we think we can control everything. And you exactly, we want to control everything. So it becomes overwhelming to think, why is this situation going this way? And why can't I control it. But what mindfulness lets you do is sit in that moment, and be able to reflect. And then once you get outside of being in the present moment, non judgmentally, you can say, What can I do about this is this out of my control is this in my control, if it's out of my control, then you can move on in a different direction. Or if it's in your control, you can build a strategy around, you know how to make this go differently moving forward. But it just really what it does, it's really doesn't set up for control or lack of control, right just allows you to be aware of where that control lies and where it doesn't, and be able to move forward with that realization. This, Michael Hingson 17:24the fact that you are if you practice mindful techniques regularly, does all of that become easier. Alicia Ramsdell 17:32For me, it personally has some people fear when they start their mindfulness practice or meditation practice that, oh, I can't, I can't shut off my my mind, it's always running. And that's a myth. Meditation is not for shutting your mind off or clearing your mind. Again, it's somebody once said, this example, and it really stuck with me. So I'm going to share it again, knowing that it's not my own. But it's imagine you were sitting on the side of a busy road, and cars are going in every direction, and you try to walk out onto that road. And, you know, stick your hands up and tell everybody to stop, there will be chaos and confusion there. There'll be cars crashing into each other. Why is your personnel in the middle of the road. So that's as if you were trying to control the practice, meditation is more think about yourself staying on that side of the road, having a lounge chair chair sitting down on that lounge chair, and just watching the traffic go by not trying to stop anything, but realize it's happening. Hey, this is a busy road. Yeah. And so as you have that mindset, going into starting a meditation practice, or starting a mindfulness practice, that's where you start to grow, rather than assuming you have to clear your mind, or, or anything like that. Michael Hingson 18:55Yeah, I started doing transcendental meditation in college and have appreciated not only that, but just the whole concept of meditation ever since. And I've maintained for a number of years that we don't do nearly as much introspection and looking at ourselves and what we do and why we do it, and how we can fix it as we should. I used to say all the time, when I listen to speeches I've given I'm my own worst critic, and I realized in the last couple of years, wrong thing to say, I'm not my own worst critic. I read somewhere that, in reality, the only one who can teach me anything is me. Other people can give me all the information, but I have to be the one to teach me to do it. And what I realized is I'm not my own worst critic. I'm my own best teacher, which is also a lot more positive anyway, and we, we don't say nearly enough positive things. So it seems to be that's a very powerful thought to have. Alicia Ramsdell 19:52Certainly, and you've hit on two really great points that the self talk that we give each other our brain doesn't know if it's Reality, or if it's just something we're thinking. So if it can't decipher between reality and just thoughts in your head, why not give positive self talk not to give fake self talk, but positive self talk to say, like you said, I'm my best my own best teacher, and you flipped it and gave it a different perspective. And that's what you suck to believe. And then the other thing I wanted to touch on, you talked about Transcendental Meditation. That's actually where I started as well. And I read a book called strengthen stillness by Bob Roth. And that was the start of my, you know, meditation. In my mindfulness, education really was self taught, talking about being your own best teacher. Michael Hingson 20:43Have you ever read 10%, happier by Dan Abrams, I have not Daniel's from on Good Morning America, and so on. And he wrote this book several years ago. And it's his journey in meditation. And he I don't think primarily does Transcendental Meditation, but he does meditate. And it's made a significant difference in his connection on the air, and just in him in general. And so he describes it as being 10%. Happier. Alicia Ramsdell 21:18Yeah, I love it. I put it on my, my list of books to read. Michael Hingson 21:24It's well worth reading. Well, you have you have been dealing with, obviously, like all of us different habits and so on, what's a habit that you had to change? Or that you decided to change? As you were going down your journey? And why did you change that in order to achieve your goals? Alicia Ramsdell 21:44So let's start when I was younger, I used to believe that there were specific paths that you had to follow in order to be successful in life and wherever that part of your life was, was, was was what it was. So this belief stayed with me as I grew up, and even into my adult years. So when I was younger, I thought that maintaining friendships meant always being agreeable, agreeable, like borderline submissive. However, as I got older, I realized the importance of being confident in who I was, and staying true to myself. And it was through this authenticity, that I started to form deeper friendships, deeper relationships with people who truly accepted and loved me for who I was. And similarly that I use that same mindset. When it came to careers later on in life, I believe that there were a certain set of rules, and a specific formula for achieving a successful career. And in the earlier days of my career, I play by those rules, right, Simon Sinek has the book out, I think it's called the infinite game, he talks about, you know, finite game and infinite game and finite game has, you know, a certain set of rules in the same number of players or certain players within it. But I realized that I was playing by these rules, and I didn't really advocate for myself or trust my own instincts. But as time went on, I learned that the value, I learned the value of trusting my intuition, and also standing up for myself in my career, and I discovered that success really isn't found with a predetermined path. I needed to embrace my unique strengths. And then from there, pursue the opportunities that align with those strengths, right, that made sense in the values that I held in the professional passions that I wanted to pursue. And Michael Hingson 23:38of course, it's important to keep in mind that success is different for each of us. And success. doesn't even necessarily need to be material. But we we're always talking about, we need to be successful. And we really need to define what that means for us, and not how everybody else wants it to find it for us. I Alicia Ramsdell 23:59couldn't agree more. And, like you said, not only is success different for different people, there's also different timelines. I used to think that Okay, once you graduate college, you need to have a job right away, you can't take any time off. Or same with high school. Once you graduate high school, you can take any time off before you go to college, I had these just all these predetermined paths that I had to stay on, for me to be successful. But honestly, some of the most successful people I know, that Uber uber successful, didn't graduate college, or they graduated college, and they never went to grad school, or, you know, they didn't have a family started at the age of 35. Or, you know, whatever, whatever the rules were. There are a lot of successful people and it's different timelines and different setups as well. If Michael Hingson 24:53we talk about success in a materialistic sort of way. It seems to me that If you're really going to look at why are you successful, whoever you are, it really comes down to the choices that you make, and that you made. And can you really go back and look at those choices and see what you learned along the way? Alicia Ramsdell 25:15Absolutely, I created this four quadrant strategy to career fulfillment. And it's a reflection exercise. And we can go through it later. But it's a reflection exercise that really dives into where are your successes? Where are you thriving? Where do you want to learn more? And then on the flip side, kind of where are you successful, don't care to pursue more? And where do you just have responsibilities and don't care to pursue more, but it really allows you that time to bring awareness to what's working, what's not working, again, be non judgmental about it, but then build a strategy moving forward on what to pursue? Yeah, Michael Hingson 25:52it still all comes back to you choosing to be self analytical, and then introspective in order to really look at what you're doing and what works and what isn't working. And I stay away from using the word failure because it has such a negative connotation. But I do believe, as some have said that failure is really just an opportunity to learn. And so I don't regard failure as a negative thing, but rather, is a way to have something that comes along and says, Okay, what are you going to learn from this? Does that make sense? Absolutely. Yeah. And we really need to look at a lot of things in different ways than we do. Do you think that we're changing our attitudes collectively on some of these things, and that we're learning some of the concepts that we're talking about here? Alicia Ramsdell 26:52I think there's, I think since COVID, I think people are really trying to implement the more, you know, taking more time for self reflection, taking more time for our mental health. You know, whether you use, you know, mindfulness as a whole, or specifically meditation. But I think, you know, from a career perspective, organizations are trying to implement this. Not just idea, but you know, actionable items that people can use, to really make sure that we're going in a direction, that's not just beneficial to the organization, but also to us as individuals. And I don't think we're 100% there yet. But I think there's more awareness around everything that we're talking about today. And I'm hopeful, as you know, younger generations who kind of lived through COVID, and maybe high school days, or even their college days. And this is all they've known since they came into the professional world. And as they become the leaders, right, there are future leaders within organizations and so forth. I think that we're only going to get better from here, given the perspective of pursuing professional interests, that really speak to yourself and really benefit an organization's mission, vision values, and then also being aware of our mental health and our, you know, overall well being. Michael Hingson 28:37Well, for me, I know, just in talking about what you're describing here, it seems to me that we really need to learn from history more than in the past, we have and that we need to recognize that history is is history, the end, it can be a valuable tool for us. For me. Somewhere along the line. As I was speaking, I suddenly realized as I went to schools, I'm talking to students who never had any direct personal knowledge of September 11. And that now, it's history to them. And I need to recognize that if I want to really communicate with them, and my job as someone who was there is to draw them in. And so I love to people say, are you really bothered about telling your story? Well, I love to tell the story if I can get people to be drawn in and really see what happened that day, and internalize it so that they make it part of their history as well, rather than it just being something that happened. And I think that's true for most anything that we do. So I think you're right, the more we can talk about it, the more we can make conversations about things like mindfulness, what the significance is, and really tell stories to Help people understand that, the better it will be because as we have people growing up, they're hearing more about it. And by really drawing them in, they'll internalize it more, it seems to me. Alicia Ramsdell 30:13Yeah. And you're right. It's it with the example of September 11. It's a part of the history books. And for those younger individuals who didn't live through, whether you were there or just live through watching it on TV, while it was happening, the stories that people share, really bring it to life. And you know, just a say aloud, I recently read your book, Thunder dog. And it was a side of September 11, that I had never experienced. And of course, I've seen the footage I've heard as many stories as I possibly can. But every time you hear somebody else's account of the day, it brings it all back, like it was happening all over again. So it was an incredible book that you wrote, well, Michael Hingson 31:06my wife is one of the people who said, Remember, for so many people, September 11th, was only as large as their television screen, or the pictures they saw in the newspaper inch. And she absolutely was right about that. But the other, but the other part about it is that even on that day, so after a while, on September 11, I eventually was able to get up toward Midtown Manhattan, and get on to a train to go back over to New Jersey. And people even on that train said, you're all dirty and dusty. Were you there? Well, what happened, you know, even then I Mike began to hear and start to recognize these people were only a couple of miles away. But to them, they didn't see it, it really wasn't the same as being there. And, you know, the only thing I think that I can do to help history and to help people is to, in a sense, and not in a negative way, but make September 11 alive, so that people understand the choices that got us there the choices that got me there the choices that got me out, and why remembering it is so important. Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. And it's, you know, it is one of those things. Well, so, you know, we we talked about you changing beliefs, and so on, if you could go back and talk to a younger Alisha, and give her one piece of advice, what would that be? And and then as she grew up, how would that have impacted her life, which means it would have impacted your life. Alicia Ramsdell 32:52So I'd love to pick just one thing, but I might I know it's hard. You can go ahead. So first of all, I would tell my younger self to start practicing meditation earlier. In my life, it's really amazing how much clarity and peace of mind can come from taking a few moments a day, to focus in on the present moment, non judgmentally, right, I go through anywhere from 20 minutes to 45 minutes a day of meditation. And, and I do it at the very beginning of my day, right after, right after I wake up. So it sets me up for obviously a positive start, but a clearer start, which is nice, too. And then second, I really encourage myself to trust my gut trust my intuition more. I won't say all the time. But most of the time, our gut feelings can really, really guide us in the right direction, even when logic and reason can suggest otherwise. But learning to listen to my inner voice and trusting it, I believe really could have led to some incredible opportunities and personal growth. Now, I don't regret things that I did you know, previously, you know, because it got me to where I am today. But if I could go back, that's when I would share with my younger self. And then one maybe silly thing, but then but I think it could really benefit myself and a lot of other people is I think I would urge myself to practice Brazilian jujitsu. It's a great physical activity, of course, but I've heard the benefits and I haven't done it yet. Right? The mental health benefits. It's consistently challenging yourself in that regard is on a map. But what it's doing, it's improving your mental focus. It's improving your problem solving abilities, right, you're on this mat, and you have this unique opportunity to test out solutions and then receive immediate impact or immediate feedback and say, do this work know, how can I get out of this situation, but you're not allowed to panic on the mat. And I think that we were talking before about fear. A lot of what comes with fear is, is panic, right? That initial moment of panic. And I think Brazilian jujitsu can really help with the problem solving could really help with critical thinking in its physical form. So it's good exercise. But I, I've heard, and I want to put it into practice. And I feel like as I get older, I've become more fearful of starting it. So that's why I would have told my younger self to start early. Michael Hingson 35:43Well, time to jump in and try it. And then you're gonna have to come back and talk with us about it so we can hear how it goes. Alicia Ramsdell 35:51i Well, I'm hoping it goes, well. Michael Hingson 35:54What are you going to start? Alicia Ramsdell 35:57I don't know. I have to set it up. But that's, that's my, that's, that's my goal. I'm not. Michael Hingson 36:04I'm not familiar with Brazilian jujitsu. And I must admit, I don't exercise probably as much as I should. One of the things that I've done, I've started doing a lot more walking. And in the winter, it gets cold here in Victorville. So I discovered that I can still walk around the house, we have a Long Island, it's probably bout a 10 foot long island. And so I've started doing laps around the island, and I'll read a book or sometimes just think while I'm doing it, but I can get well over 10,000 steps just walking around that bar. Now it's level, it's not a hill, or around that island. It's not a it's not hills. But my Apple Watch says great you got in 10,000 steps today. So I can't argue totally with that. So it's a great way to get exercise. And I can do it even in the house. And what I'm really saying is, we can always find ways to accomplish things like that, if we choose to, yeah, Alicia Ramsdell 37:04walking around an island 10,000 steps or walking 10,000 steps outside and your brain doesn't know the difference. It just knows that you're walking. Michael Hingson 37:12Yeah. And it doesn't care. And, and so I can do it. And it goes really well. So my my brain and my Apple watch, like the idea. So I get the information. And it's really kind of cool. So I basically tried to do that every day. And it's a way that I also can, while I'm doing that think and sometimes meditate, although best meditations are when you can sit and relax in it, it is enough, Faker, a hokey thing to do that. But if you're really gonna meditate, then you need to allow yourself to drift and not try to make choices or do anything while you're meditating. But you've got to let your brain relax as well. And look at the day. Alicia Ramsdell 38:00And that's the beauty of meditation, you don't have to do anything. You just sit there in that present moment with your thoughts. And you can have a focus point, right? Whether that be your breath, or anything else. But every time your mind shifts to a thought or a worry or concern, acknowledge it, and then bring it back to that focus point. So like I said, with your breath, think of like a flashlight, leaving the spot that you was originally on just bringing that flashlight back to that spot? Michael Hingson 38:32And looking at why it's there. And what what, if anything, could you really do about it anyway? Right? And it's fair to think about what can you do about it, if anything, anyway, again, it gets back to not trying to control every little thing that comes along. Exactly. So with all the things that you're doing regarding mindset, which I find fascinating and absolutely relevant, how do you handle failure? And when you're dealing with setbacks, how do you handle those? And what strategies have you adopted to deal with that? Alicia Ramsdell 39:07Yeah, so I alluded to this earlier, but really, my mindfulness practice has helped me throughout my life and failures or when I started this process. So it was, in my days of corporate America, I really started my mindfulness practice. So specifically for me, like I mentioned before, it's 20 to 45 minutes every morning when I first wake up. And what this allows me to do is that I know that failures and setbacks are going to happen throughout my days. This gives me a chance to just sit with those feelings, sit with those emotions, in a sense, peacefully. And then I feel like when I do, get out of the meditation practice, I then workout and exercise. I then focus on you know, getting my kids After school, from there, I go outside and I take my dog for a walk. So I'm getting that sunlight. I'm getting that extra exercise with walking outside with a fresh year. And by the time I come back and have a healthy breakfast, whatever failures and setbacks I was worried about from the day before, starting my day, the way I do between a meditation practice and exercise practice, you know, getting a walk in outside getting that sunlight having a healthy breakfast, I feel like almost like Superwoman, I can kind of handle anything, because I've empowered myself physically and mentally, for the day. And I almost accept the fact that I shouldn't even say almost, I do accept the fact that failures and setbacks are going to come along the way. So I think it's a part of being realistic, and not kind of putting your head in the sand like, Oh, I'm not gonna have any failures or setbacks. This is gonna go swimmingly. I prep myself to say, when something does go wrong, this is what I want you to do, Alicia, right, I want you to sit with the emotions of it not going right. Kind of journaling. What happens specifically, without emotion involved? What specifically happened, it's like, oh, I'm really upset because this person didn't call when they were supposed to, or this person didn't show up to a meeting, or I was late because of a traffic situation, or whatever it was, without emotion. It's this happened, this happened. This happened, very matter of fact, and then coming back to it and saying, Okay, moving forward, what if that didn't happen? How would that have set me up for success? And kind of going backwards, working from what did happen? Working our way backwards, and then trying to go back forward? I know that sounds a little convoluted, but I'm trying to figure out what were the specific actions that didn't allow it to happen? And then say, Okay, well, if that didn't happen, what would have been more successful? Or what would have been better about the situation? Have you ever had strategy? You ever Michael Hingson 42:13had any real major setback in your life that just completely threw you off your game? And how did you deal with that? Alicia Ramsdell 42:21Well, being in corporate America for 15 years, I faced a pivotal moment after the end of that when I had to make a decision to leave and start my own business. Now, no, I didn't have to start my own business, I could have stayed in corporate America. But it was a challenging decision for me, because I was I had to let go of job security. For me, that's a significant step, considering my backgrounds in accounting, and tax with an undergraduate degree, a graduate degree and extensive experience that I gained in the industry. But I discovered that in my days in corporate America that like I said, Before, there was a gap in career development landscape within corporate America. There were a lot of internal resources that provided employee support. But I noticed again, like I said, there was a need for confidential one on one conversations, career development conversations. And many individuals were hesitant to openly discuss their career aspirations and their challenges with internal resources. So what I do with mindful career path is I set this framework up, where we combine career development, one on one coaching in a confident confidential setting, think of like, you know, the doctor patient confidentiality, and then while also addressing individual stress levels. So for me, the difficult piece came when, at the end of corporate, my corporate America is I was going through a toxic work situation. And I was trying to handle it internally and stay there internally, because of the fear of leaving job security. I never really imagined myself as someone who would take the risk to be, you know, a business owner, but I had a lot of self dealt in leaving, right, that whole imposter syndrome, can I really do this? Can I really start my own business? But after dealing with some toxic work environment factors, I realized I only have this one life to live. Do I choose to stay in toxicity? For another 15 years, just because I felt there was job security? Or do I take those next 15 years, even five years, even one year and try to make a difference for anybody else not to experience the same thing I was experiencing in that moment. Right offer up this car You're developing conversation offer up stress, mindfulness, stress, mindfulness based stress reduction techniques to individuals. So that was a really difficult decision for me. And I think what I learned, again, I talked about this before, is trusting my intuition trusting my gut. And I'm glad I did. Because as I said, Before, I started this in 2020. And I haven't looked back Michael Hingson 45:22since. Yeah, we often just choose not to listen to that inner voice. And I'm glad that you do it is an important thing. I love to use the example of Trivial Pursuit. How many times does somebody play Trivial Pursuit? And the question comes up whatever it is, and an answer flashes in their mind. But then they go, No, that can't be it. And so that's not the answer they give it invariably was the right answer. Yeah, it's, it's so true. happens all too often. On the other hand, it's a great teaching tool to try to teach us to use our inner voice more. And I know that when I do that, and I listen. More often than not, it is the right answer. And people say, How can you know so much? And you know, how do you tell them, You got to listen to your inner voice, you can tell them that they don't listen. But nevertheless, that's what it is. Because oftentimes, it's about something I've never heard of before, or I just don't know anything about. Yeah. That inner voice picks up on so many things that we don't. Yes, yeah. And Alicia Ramsdell 46:27it's something that I think comes with time, it comes with experience that comes with age to say, remember that time they did listen to my gut, or my intuition and see how it went, why not give it a shot. So I think it's more about building up that confidence level, to trust your gut to trust your intuition. But Michael Hingson 46:46it is something that you have to practice doing and you have to make a conscious decision to do it. And sometimes when it just doesn't seem like you should do it, you still have to decide that's what I've got to do. Because it will give you the better answer whatever that is. Absolutely. Well, so what do you do so so by the way, you got two kids, how old are the children? Alicia Ramsdell 47:1311 and 10. Oh boy, boys, one boy and one girl one Michael Hingson 47:19of each. Like is future bride is there is there a mister in the in the scene and the picture here? Yes. Alicia Ramsdell 47:25Yep. My husband Yeah. Michael Hingson 47:27What does he do? Alicia Ramsdell 47:29He works at in the investment management industry. Does Michael Hingson 47:34he trust his gut? Alicia Ramsdell 47:38Yes, he does. Good thing for the most part. If not If not I help them with that. But yes, for the most part, any trust is good. Well, Michael Hingson 47:46that's a good thing. Well, you've got you know, a cool family. I have a dog and a cat and I haven't mentioned stitch so this is the first time that stitch the cat has been involved in listening and watching a podcast so I've talked about stitch the kitty many times but here she is there a stitch the cat, and we welcome stitch to unstoppable mindset to she's actually she's been very quiet. She hasn't yelled or anything. So she's been very comfy up here on the chair, which is great. Alicia Ramsdell 48:17What do you do? Guest Michael Hingson 48:19Oh, she's she's a great guest. Yeah. And then Alamo. The guide dog is over here. He's here's here. Most of the time. He says I'll just lay down and listen, I don't need to do anything. What do you do when, when outside of work to relax and so on? I know we talked about medication but then since I'm not sure that's totally outside work. What else do you do for playtime? Alicia Ramsdell 48:40Yeah, so, Michael Hingson 48:42this besides thinking about Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, but that's, Alicia Ramsdell 48:47yeah, so one area that there's really two things that I guess kind of like light me up when I'm outside of work. So one area I'm really passionate about is living. And this might not sound fun to other people, but really living an overall healthy lifestyle. So I really like to learn more about how can I optimize my sleep? How can I engage more mindfulness activities, as we've talked about, how can I get regular exercise? How can I, you know, nourish my body with with healthy food choices, but even beyond that, it's become more of like a family affair, where my husband does a lot of research on this. And we've gotten our kids involved in in really understanding the background of this, but things like you know, grounding, right, bare feet on the ground, outside, getting that much needed sunlight, you know, be mindful of the skincare products we put on our skin. And we're as a family, we're really trying to embrace this more like a holistic approach to health and wellness. So that's something that we talk about often. And I think just the excitement of living a healthy lifestyle, the excitement of longevity moving forward, but then another area that really lights me up is working with Youth, right. And that could be in two different dimensions really. But it all relates to building youth confidence. So for me, it's coaching youth sports is getting involved in programs at the high school level, like the business, DECA chapter, which inspires high school students, you know, into their professional or business pursuits. And I teach also at the college level. And again, I do this because I really enjoy seeing the positive impact on on the lives of these of these, whether young individuals as kids or young adults in college, and it fills me with a deep sense of fulfillment, that I could have a positive influence and watch their confidence levels grow, no matter what capacity that's in, right, again, sports, you know, professional pursuits at when they're thinking about it in high school, or even in college classroom. And so those are two different things. But coincidentally, they're very much related kind of to my professional passions. Michael Hingson 51:06What do you teach in college? Alicia Ramsdell 51:09I teach that in Beverly at Endicott College. Okay. Well, Michael Hingson 51:13that's, that is pretty cool and exciting. We haven't talked about the fact that you've written a book. Alicia Ramsdell 51:19Yes, well, a children's book, I wrote a children's book, and it's called The One and Only incredible me. Michael Hingson 51:24Well, tell us about that, if you would, please. Alicia Ramsdell 51:28Sure, it stems from, again, the work that I do professionally. And then I get so excited to talk about it to really anybody. But I even talk about my work to my kids, which I never did before when I was in accounting and tax, as you can imagine, but I would talk to my kids about, hey, you can grow up to be, you know, whatever it is that you would like to be, you know, as long as you put in the effort, and you have the knowledge base, and so forth. And I said a lot of people along the way, are going to make suggestions to you, oh, you should be this. So you should do this, you should do that. And I said, and you don't have to do that, if it doesn't make sense for you. But again, it's kind of reflecting on on what do you want, rather than what does everyone else expect of you. So the book, the one and only incredible me is kind of a fun way to explore, hey, well, when I was younger, my preschool teacher said, Oh, he's going to be an architect one day. And then my high school teacher saw I was good at math. And they said, Oh, he's going to be an engineer one day, and it kind of keeps going on. And it's an interactive book to say, you know, all these wonderful people in my life suggests that I was this, this and this. But I wasn't that in the end, guess what I was, I do this, and I really love what I do. So it's not to, you know, lessen the impact of well intentioned adults in our lives, but it's just to promote our own self awareness, and, you know, excitement to engage in whatever pursuits that we want professionally moving forward. Michael Hingson 53:02Mr. Campbell was my freshman in high school geography teacher. And I don't know why I am, as I am, but I was brought up to value what my teachers tell me. And, and I remember lots of different things and lots of different kinds of concepts that my teachers brought to my attention. And a lot of times, they were not necessarily in the subjects that the teachers were teaching, for example, Mr. Campbell, once said, he did all sorts of tests, when he was younger to decide what he wanted to do. And everything pointed to the fact that he should be a plumber. But yet, he ended up being a geography teacher, and I would still to this day, say, a good one. Alicia Ramsdell 53:53Yeah. And imagine this world without him because of the impact that he had on you if he had went down, you know? Yeah. Michael Hingson 54:02And, you know, I remember things about geography, although I don't remember what exactly to attribute to Him. But I remembered that lesson from him. And I've had others like that from from teachers. And when they're speaking from the heart like that, it it really does tend to stick with you. And I think it is, as you point out really important for us to really recognize that we are our own selves. And it is our choices. And the earlier we can learn about making good choices or making choices and valuing those choices. Even if they don't turn out right, using that information to grow is very important to do. Alicia Ramsdell 54:43And the impact that they have can be profound on you know, future generations. The fact that you're still talking about him today is you know, speaks volumes. And Michael Hingson 54:54the the choice can be good or bad depending on how you decide to deal with it. Whatever it is, right? Yeah. Which is, which is really so cool. Well, let me ask one last question, what's the unique challenge or unique way that you overcome challenges? What's something that you use to overcome challenges and how can others apply it. Alicia Ramsdell 55:18So when it comes to navigating this, the complexities of today's modern world, I believe, like I've mentioned a number of times that intuition, and self reflection are two of the most powerful tools that can guide us, you know, and specifically, when I when I talk about a lot is career fulfillment, but you can talk about life fulfillment in general, we're living in this world that's referred to as the VUCA world. And this is a world characterized or characterized by volatility, uncertainty, complexity, and ambiguity. And because this world is rapidly changing it, it's essential to have a strategy that helps us make sense of our past, write our past experiences, and then use those to chart a course for our future. So this is why I developed and I referenced before, but a framework that I refer to as the four quadrant strategy to career fulfillment, again, you can, you know, change your career life. But what this framework combines is the wisdom of trusting your intuition, and the valuable insights that you've gained from your past experiences. So as I mentioned, the four quadrant strategy, they think of a piece of paper, drawing a line down the middle, and then a line across the center, it's now four quadrants. And in the first top left quadrant, think of things where you have been successful, and where you are thriving and write them down. And the bottom left quadrant, you want to write down areas where you're not yet successful, but you want to learn more about it. So think of those as your learning opportunities. Now switching over to the right side, in the top right corner, you want to write areas where you are successful, but don't really care to pursue more of it. And then in the bottom right quadrant, you want to write down areas where you have responsibilities, you're not necessarily you know, the go to person for them, and you don't care to pursue moving forward. So again, with this overall framework and engaging with it, you don't want to overthink your answers, right? We want to trust our gut instincts, we want to trust our intuition. And this allows our initial thoughts to be exactly as they are no judgment, just writing down our responses. And after we've completed, we take time to reflect on these answers. And then we evaluate, hey, how do these answers align with where I'm currently at, in my career in my life? And how can they be used towards my future aspirations. And then again, you embrace that intuition. You embrace the self reflection process, and you gain clarity, for what you value as well as a professional, what you value is just a human being, and you can use it for areas of growth moving forward. Michael Hingson 58:23And that is a pretty cool set of techniques that I think anyone can use. And clearly, it's a way where you can discover and learn and grow. Right? Exactly. Alicia Ramsdell 58:34And it doesn't, you know, sometimes you might hear a framework and might say, Wow, that sounds pretty simple and easy. But at the same time, sometimes it's so simple and easy things that we need to do that can really propel us and can be have a profound impact on our futures. Yeah. It Michael Hingson 58:55doesn't need to be as I would say, magical to be something that's valuable to do. Well, Alicia, I really want to thank you for being with us on unstoppable mindset. And clearly you demonstrate that kind of a mindset. If people want to reach out to you and maybe talk to you about being a coach or helping them how do they do that? Alicia Ramsdell 59:15Certainly, they can go to my full career path.com And all my social media links are there, or they can find me on LinkedIn. I think I'm the only Alicia Ramsdell on there. So it's going to be hard to find me spell Michael Hingson 59:30that for me though, if you would, Alicia. Alicia Ramsdell 59:33Sure. A l i c i a. Last name R a m s d e l l Michael Hingson 59:43So reach out to Alicia. Clearly lots of good information. And I think she's a very thoughtful individual that can add value to all of us. And one of the things that I love to do and having these conversations is I get to learn. And I figure if I'm not learning as least as much as other people that I'm not doing my job for me and for anyone else well, so I really value the time that you have taken. And I really value the lessons that you've taught me and hopefully others today. So I really appreciate that. So thank you for being here. And I want to thank you all for listening out there. We really appreciate you, commenting on Alicia's conversation with us today. Please give us a five star rating wherever you're listening to unstoppable mindset. Please give us your comments and your thoughts. We'd love them. If you'd like to reach out to me directly. I would invite you to do that please reach out you can email me at Michaelhi m i c h a e l h i at accessibe A C C E S S I B E.com. Or go to our podcast page www dot Michael hingson.com/podcast. And then Michael Hinkgon is m i c h a e l h i n g s o n.com/podcast. So I hope that you enjoyed today that you learned something from it reach out to Alicia and I have to say once again, Alicia, thank you for your review about thunder dog. Absolutely. Alicia Ramsdell 1:01:11Thank you, Michael. And while you're at it, everyone go out on Amazon and pick up the underdog. Michael Hingson 1:01:17Wow. Well thank you again for being here. We really appreciate it. Michael Hingson 1:01:24You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com . AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

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I want to introduce you to Jann Weeratunga from South Africa who is our guest on this episode. Jann was born and grew up in Lundon. After working as a highway maintenance engineer for 10 years she moved to Sri Lanka where she married and lived for several years. Her husband passed away after they were married for four and a half years, but Jann continued to work and live there until she got the moving urge and ended up living in South Africa. Jann has always had a deep interest in the para-Olympics. In 2012, while watching the closing ceremony of the London Paralympic Games, Jann was deeply moved by Sir Philip Craven's speech which included The tale of a young boy reading a book and recognizing a man with an eye patch, a hook for a hand, a parrot on his shoulder, and a wooden leg as an Olympian. This imagery sparked a transformative idea within her. Anyone recognize the man as a pirate? Jann did and began to write what is now a series of 10 children’s books about Polly the Parrot or Pirate. Jann will tell us Polly’s story and how this bird helped to create the Piralympics. This series is all about pirates, all of whom have disabilities and who compete in the “piralympics”. To date, Jann has written over 40 books for children, some poetry and even books for adults. As she says, writing is a muscle that needs to be developed and exercised daily. This conversation to me is certainly quite inspirational and insightful for all. I hope you enjoy it. About the Guest: Jann Weeratunga is an author who firmly believes in the importance of representation and diversity, particularly for the 15% of the population who are often overlooked— the disabled community.In 2012, while watching the closing ceremony of the London Paralympic Games, Jann was deeply moved by Sir Philip Craven's speech. The tale of a young boy reading a book and recognizing a man with an eye patch, a hook for a hand, a parrot on his shoulder, and a wooden leg as an Olympian sparked a transformative idea within her. This powerful moment gave birth to the unique concept and content of the Polly's Piralympics Series (Paralympics for Pirates). Through these books, Jann tackles important themes like disabilities, bullying, and cheating. However, plagued by self-doubt, Jann's journey faced a roadblock until 2016, when a friend who pushed her to take a leap of faith, reminding her that she would never know unless she published her work. This encouragement marked the beginning of her real journey as an author and Polly’s Piralympics was launched in South Africa. Jann's flagship series, Polly's Piralympics, has garnered tremendous success and continues to thrive, with the tenth book currently in the works. In March 2018, she established the Schools Reading Road Show, a non-profit organization aimed at enhancing literacy among primary school students in South Africa. Alongside her fellow authors, she embarked on a mission to visit schools in various regions, sharing inspiring stories, delivering motivational talks on important topics like "anti-bullying" and "it's okay to be different," and encouraging young learners to explore their own storytelling abilities. Beyond her writing, Jann founded the Schools Reading Road Show, an organization that promotes literacy and encourages young learners to embrace diversity. She has visited schools, delivered motivational talks, and empowered children to tell their own stories. Jann's impactful work extends to addressing conferences, conducting workshops, and participating in panels, all aimed at emphasizing the importance of representation and inclusivity. She continues to write Best Seller stories for children, while exploring different creative avenues for adults under her pen name, JE Gallery. Her works have received several awards and nominations across Africa. Recognized for her invaluable contributions to the literary landscape, Jann has spoken at the prestigious Embrace Head Teachers Conference in 2018 and 2019. She has also conducted workshops on the significance of reading for young adult pupils, participated in panels at esteemed events such as the JBBF (Jozi Books and Blogs Festival), South African Children's Book Fair, and Kingsmead Book Fair. In 2020 on the eve of Lockdown, she organised and ran the Bennies Book Fayre for Children. The largest Children’s Book fair for children in South Africa. To Date in 2023 she has attended the Zintzomi Storytelling Book Fair and The Johannesburg Festival of Women Writers. Even amidst the challenges posed by the Covid-19 pandemic, Jann found solace in her writing during the period of isolation. This time allowed her to focus on her craft, resulting in the release of her latest series, Patch's Pirate Pals. The first two books in the series, "Bluebird's New Ship" and "Redhair's Snot Cannonballs," achieved the remarkable feat of becoming Amazon Best Sellers in June and July 2022. Ways to connect with Jann: https://www.facebook.com/JannWeeratunga www.linkedin.com/in/jann-weeratunga-4aa852137 https://www.amazon.com/stores/Jann-Weeratunga/author/B07RPGCF61 About the Host:Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children’s Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association’s 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.comhttps://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/https://twitter.com/mhingsonhttps://www.youtube.com/user/mhingsonhttps://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ accessiBe Linkshttps://accessibe.com/https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBehttps://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can also subscribe in your favorite podcast app. Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts. Transcription Notes:

Michael Hingson 00:00Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us. Michael Hingson 01:21Well, hi, thanks for listening here on unstoppable mindset. We're inclusion diversity in the unexpected meet. Today, we get to travel to South Africa to talk with Jann Weeratunga. I hope I pronounced that reasonably right. And absolutely perfectly. Oh, great. I like to I like to try. Jann is an author. She's created a series around what she calls the piralympics. And we're going to talk about that. But she has a lot of other things to bring into the discussion as well. So I think we're going to have a lot of fun today. So Jann, welcome to unstoppable mindset. We're really glad you're here with us. Jann Weeratunga 02:05Thank you, Michael. We're really glad to join you. Michael Hingson 02:07Well, why don't we start at I love to do with kind of learning a little bit about the earlier Jann growing up and all that sort of stuff. Jann Weeratunga 02:16Okay. I was born in London. I grew up in London, schooled in London. I eventually got married and moved out to Sri Lanka, hence my very peculiar surname. And I was out there for about 10 years, my husband passed away. And from there, I moved into the Middle East. I taught for a year there and then came over to South Africa, and I've been here for 17 years now. Michael Hingson 02:49Wow. What? What made you decide to go to South Africa? Well, Jann Weeratunga 02:55I was hoping it seemed like a good idea at the time. Yeah, there you go. Yeah, it was after the tsunami I had. I'd spent two years working on the east coast of Sri Lanka, I set up my own NGO. And I met people from all over the world. And on one occasion, we'd actually been down the coast this way and driving back and the army stopped us and sort of said, Did you know that there's a tsunami warning? Why are you driving around and of course, where we had been, it had just been water and monkeys and us and that was about it. And in the car, there was myself, British, a friend who was from South Africa and another friend who was from Australia, and another friend who was from America. And it dawned on us, literally, as we were explaining who we were and where we were from, that we were four ladies from four different countries from four different continents. So yeah, it was it was a very different sort of thing. And from there I I made friends with them. And then one of them sort of said, Look, you know, would you like to come and visit South Africa? You know, I've I'm just finishing off here and my time is in Sri Lanka is finishing would you like to come visit? So I thought, Okay, why not? I've never been South Africa. And that's what brought me here. Michael Hingson 04:28Pretty, pretty interesting scenario all the way around on but you never thought that was going to happen. Did you Jann Weeratunga 04:36know I didn't. But, you know, life has a habit of sort of just taking you where it wants to. So yeah, it Michael Hingson 04:44was good. So we're in South Africa, are you? Jann Weeratunga 04:48I'm actually in Johannesburg. So yeah, so inland about 1000 kilometers from the in gold country as they call it. eaglet and So yeah, I live up in Johannesburg. Michael Hingson 05:03So you, you have definitely moved around in the world. Have you been to America before? Jann Weeratunga 05:10I actually haven't. I sort of came out of Britain and turned left instead of turning right. And I never got to the States or Canada is actually one country I would love to go to. It's on my bucket list, along with Iceland and a few others. But yeah, I sort of got as far as as far east as Sri Lanka and as far as South and South Africa. So you know, all the bits in between there? Michael Hingson 05:39Well, I hope you do get to come to America. It's a it's a large country. fairly large physically, but certainly a lot of different cultures and different kinds of ways of life, depending on what state you're in, and, and so on everything from relatively new in California, which became a state in 1850, compared to some of the other states like Massachusetts, in the other colonies much earlier. And I love to travel around America to see the various different kinds of pupils, the different cultures that have all assimilated into this one really great country, which is, which is a lot of fun to do. And it's really enjoyable to to see the different states and everyone's a little bit different. Jann Weeratunga 06:25Okay, okay. Yeah, no, it's very big. I sort of looked at Washington State and thought that was a place I'd really like to go to, because it looks very green, and lots and lots of trees. So, you know, I'd like to travel around America if I get the opportunity. So you never know, hey, hey, Michael Hingson 06:42you never know. Well, I'm actually going to be in Washington State next month. So it'll be it'll be kind of find I've been there before and love going up to Washington. I love California as well. But I've enjoyed going to all 50 states now and just found a lot of wonderful stuff to see and do in all of those various states. So I can't complain a bit. I find it to be rich and, and exciting. But I've been to a number of countries. I have not been to England, I've been to Ireland, and I've been to New Zealand. And of course, I've been to Canada, and to the Netherlands. And in Japan and Korea, but I haven't really been to South Africa. I'd love to come and speak there some time. If the opportunity ever arises. I think it would be fun to do. And I've been to Israel. I went to Israel in August because I was there to be with accessibly for a week. And so again, I love going to a variety of different countries and experiencing and getting the chance to be a part of other cultures. So it's great. Well, so you went to college in England? Jann Weeratunga 07:57I sort of Yeah, I was a bit of a dropout. Yeah, it some. I passed with straight A's. My first two years and then I just decided, I don't know, I don't know what I decided. But I got a job. And I moved up very, very quickly, and I got paid way too much money. So I just decided that I wasn't going to go back to college. Michael Hingson 08:24What was your job? Jann Weeratunga 08:27I was actually a highway maintenance engineer. I actually built roads. Michael Hingson 08:31Wow. That's an interesting and different job. No, you enjoyed it. Jann Weeratunga 08:39I did actually it was your same thing. Two days on the trot, which was lovely. And I like sort of variation. I don't like sort of being stuck in an office. That's not really me. So yeah, I really I actually did, I really enjoyed it. And I worked with a great bunch of people. All men, I was the only woman I was the first woman into the department. So that was a little challenging to begin with. But they got used to me and yeah, and then eventually I left there to get married and go out to Sri Lanka. Michael Hingson 09:13So how long did you have that job? 10 years. Wow. So you you obviously did enjoy it? Jann Weeratunga 09:20Yeah, no, it was good. Michael Hingson 09:22So what do you do as a highway maintenance engineer? Jann Weeratunga 09:25Well, you basically dig up the road and relay it in in sort of very much layman's terms. I actually was responsible for a section of the a 40 which is the sort of London to Oxford road. I was responsible for a section of that. And yeah, just making sure that everything on it was working well. It was supposed to it was kept clean. The lights were on. The Galley pots were cleaned out, there were no potholes. At one point we even managed to put a new footbridge across it which was They're different. Yeah, Michael Hingson 10:02that's definitely a different thing to do. But certainly I can understand why that would be part of your job. Yeah, yeah. Then what took you to Sri Lanka. Jann Weeratunga 10:14Um, my best friend from school was actually Sri Lankan. And we'd gone there when I was when I literally just finished my A levels. And we went out there for a trip. She came over to Ireland to see what Ireland was like. And I went over to Sri Lanka with her, you know, the parents thought it was good, sort of cultural exchanges for us. And I really liked the country. And then sort of 1010 odd years later, I hadn't taken any holiday, I still run a scout troop. So every weekend that I had free and my suppose it holidays, whereas he spent scouting. And I just I got to the point, I was very, very tired. And I needed a break. And her dad actually said, Well, why don't you go back to Sri Lanka? You know, lots of people out there still. You kept in touch go out there. And I did. And then I met my husband and six months of chewing and froing. And eventually, we he popped the question, and we got married, and I moved out there. Michael Hingson 11:21I'm assuming your parents were okay with that. Jann Weeratunga 11:24The Not really. She was the other side of the world as far as they were. Yeah. And it was way too far away. But he made sure that every year I actually went back to the UK for, you know, I actually chose your Christmas. Because that's a very family orientated time for us. And unfortunately, he passed away after we'd been married about four and a half years. But I continue to stay out there for another six. The tsunami hit during that time. I also worked as the club secretary for what was at the time, the only the third golf course in the country rated in the top 10 in Southeast Asia, which was the Victoria golf club sat on struggling. So for Duncan golf union, which is actually where I was in 911. Yeah, I was actually at a golf meeting. And somebody said, Excuse me, I think you should all come and see the television. And we watched the plane. The second plane hit. So yeah, it's for those ones. We know exactly where you were in what you were doing. Yeah, Michael Hingson 12:41most, most people do. Most people do remember that. And I've heard so many fascinating and interesting stories about where people were or why they ended up not being in the tower that day, although they were scheduled to be and even up on higher floors. It is one of those amazing things and there's so many different stories. And a lot of people have stories to tell about it, which is pretty interesting. Jann Weeratunga 13:08Yeah. So the world stop moments a little bit like, I suppose, the shooting of JFK and, and of course, COVID More recently, you know, I think everybody knows where they were and what they were doing during COVID. Yeah, yeah, Michael Hingson 13:26we stayed home. My wife had rheumatoid arthritis. And so her immune system was suppressed and she took medication for it that helped the pain, but it did keep the immune system down. So we chose without any qualms at all to stay home, and basically locked down. We were blessed. We could could get things brought in through things like GrubHub and other things like that. And I did my shopping or an our shopping through a service called Instacart. That would bring things and it worked out really well. And we live very close to a country club here in Spring Valley lake in Victorville. And we joined a social members of the club. And although they didn't deliver food, they had food available that you could go down and get, but we were friends with the general manager. And he said, anytime you want food, just call him we'll bring it and they were. So we were we were blessed. That Jann Weeratunga 14:21sounds really, really good. It's actually something it changed shopping, and how we shop in South Africa. Prior to COVID, everybody used to just go to the supermarket or go to the shops. And we didn't have any delivery services. It didn't exist in South Africa. And it's actually created a whole industry of young men on motorbikes that deliver and I know in the UK, they had deliveries, but it sort of, after about a year it fizzled out and people got back to going shopping, you know, whereas here It is carried on, and people still get their shopping delivered from the local supermarket with these little guys. It's good dude outside your house. And there they are. Yeah, Michael Hingson 15:11we have their word delivery services prior to prior to COVID. But it certainly did pick up a lot in COVID. And after COVID. And you're right, it's changed a lot of things. And we can view that as a positive thing or not. But I think overall, people are starting to discover, even with working that there's no need to be in the office five days a week, eight or more hours a day that it's healthier, to let people do some work at home, and do some of their work outside of the office. Jann Weeratunga 15:49Absolutely, absolutely. But I must admit, I think I saw more dogs being walked around my blog than I had ever seen. People tend not to take the dogs out too much. Yeah. They were very, very big plots, and the dogs run around on those. But of course, that was the only excuse we had initially to actually be able to leave our properties. So all the dogs had their little walkies on a regular basis every day. So that was quite interesting as well. Michael Hingson 16:18I've been to places in Europe and also talk to to other people who live there. And I guess it was fairly common, even well before COVID, to walk dogs and even see dogs go into stores or restaurants and so on. And it was a common thing. But the difference between there and here and correct me if I'm wrong. But the difference is that most all of those dogs were well behaved and they were controlled by their people. Michael Hingson 16:51Generally, yes, generally. And Michael Hingson 16:54unfortunately, here, people just think they should be able to take their dogs, whether they're well behaved or not. And all too often, we see that dogs are not as well behaved as they should be. That creates a problem for those of us who use dogs like guide, like I use our my guide dog Alamo as a guide dog who's trained. And then they tried to put restrictions and has put some restrictions on us, because of those other people that they wouldn't really just deal with them appropriately. So it is it is a challenge. Yeah, Jann Weeratunga 17:25no, I know, from obviously the UK and Ireland, because my mum's from Ireland, that, you know, taking the dogs out for a walk is commonplace. I mean, dad would always take the dog for a walk around the block at night, just you know, before we went to bed. And it was my brother and my job to sort of walk the dog down to the park and give them a good run during the day. So I think you know, so walking dogs, it was it was it was good, actually, because it's a good form of exercise as well. And, you know, I mean, I would often sort of pop the dog into the car, drive up to the forest and go for a walk for two to three hours, you know, and then come back with a very tired dog. So yeah, well, that's Michael Hingson 18:07that's a good thing. Yeah. And sometimes attire, Jann, but but still, that's probably. Jann Weeratunga 18:14Yeah, I wasn't bad. In those days. It was bit younger. But the Yeah. Well, I Michael Hingson 18:20know one of the things about you is that you, you write you're an author, when did you start writing? Jann Weeratunga 18:25I think I've always had an interest in poetry, and sort of wrote little details here and that sort of thing. But it was more or less when I came to South Africa, we owned a restaurant down in Nisa, which is on the coast, in very beautiful part of the country is just above the sort of Jitsi, karma, forest area. And I actually lived in a wooden cabin in the forest, where I didn't spend much time there because I actually spent sort of like, six and a half days at the restaurant running it. But when I had spare time, I would actually just sort of sit on the deck. And just let my mind wander. And I started with the poetry. And then I started writing in seriously children's stories in 2012, which was the start of the Paralympics. Michael Hingson 19:27So love to hear more about that. What got you started doing that? And well, let me ask first, did you publish any of your poetry? Jann Weeratunga 19:38Would you believe I actually only published my poetry last year? And that was because some friends had basically seen some of the poems and sort of said, Why haven't you published the and I think it's the difference between being judged by your peers and being judged by children. So so most of them My writing is actually for children. But my poetry is obviously for adults. And funnily enough, I actually took a couple of books with me, I went back to the UK in May to see my family. And I took a couple of books, and gave them as gifts to friends. And they actually sort of said, well, would you read a couple of poems for us, and so I read a couple of them, and they were in tears. And I didn't think my poetry would have that much of an effect on people. So it was quite an eye opener for me. The other adult work I've done is I actually write adult short stories, dark stories, unfortunately. I know a couple of other authors that do the same. They write poetry, children's books, and dark, short stories. And I think it's a release from writing children's stuff all the time is to write sort of the dark adult stuff. But I've actually not that I'm not public, I've got two books ready to go. They've been sitting there for a couple of years. And, and yeah, and there's just a block there that the Michael Hingson 21:10public, are they going to be dark? Jann Weeratunga 21:14They are dark, all the short stories are very dark. And yes, but they're there. I mean, one of one of them is actually a monologue, for example of a character who has schizophrenia. And so they're obviously talking to themselves. And they're on a plane. They I say they because it was it's one person is on a plane, and the quieter voice of the two has actually arranged to be euthanized in Switzerland, which is legal. Without the other one, knowing what the other side of the venue knowing. And it's this, this monologue, and that's all it is, is this conversation the whole way through the story. And a few people that have read it have been, I think, quite shocked, because it's not the sort of usual happy clappy stuff that I wrote for kids. Yeah. And they were saying, Okay, well, when is it publishing? Have you got any more? And can we read it? So sorry about that thing? I can't stop that. Michael Hingson 22:26Look at JK Rowling. You know, she wrote the Harry Potter series, and now she's writing the Cormoran Strike series. And I don't know that I would say they're, they're darker, although I think the last Harry Potter book that she wrote was, was darker than the others. But she clearly throughout both series is a mystery writer. Because in one real sense, Harry Potter is all about mystery is being a mystery. Just the various things that go through it. Jann Weeratunga 22:58Yeah, I think the interesting thing with her work is the fact that it sort of it crossed genres. Yeah. And it was the first of all really strong, young adult series that came out really strong. And I think it defined it defined that that genre completely, you know, all those that don't know, young adult is basically stories that don't contain sex, or explicit violence as in blood, guts and gore type of thing. So So, and it's actually turned out to be a very popular genre, because a lot of people, they don't necessarily want that. But they want a good story, they will, you know, they don't want to read children's stories. They want to read adult stories, but they don't want that side of it. So it's quite interesting how it's developed. Michael Hingson 23:58Well, I will say any number of adults like them, too. I would love to, I would love to see more Harry Potter books. But there is a new series that's written by an American about one of his sons, James Potter, and five books have come out in that series, and they're pretty good. And again, there's some good mysteries in them. Well, so what got you started writing children's books and the pirate Olympics and so on. I'd love to hear that story. Jann Weeratunga 24:30Okay, I have always loved watching the Paralympics more than the Olympics. Right from a very young child. I was glued to the TV for the Paralympics. And 12 was the London Olympics, which I personally feel changed people's views towards disabilities in general. I think was a big leap forward for the disabled community at that particular point. But for me personally, it was, so Philip Craven, who's paraplegic himself was giving the closing speech. And he was chatting away and sort of saying, you know, there was this mother with her son, and they were reading a book. And in the book, there was a character and he had a patch over one eye, a hook for a hand, and a wooden leg. And the mother turned around and she said to the boy, my boy, who's this? And he said, Well, he's got one eye, one arm, one leg, he must be a Paralympian. And it was like one of those light bulb moments you get you know, you you don't think they exist. But it but actually it really did exist for me. And I suddenly thought, hang on a minute. Because he was talking about the pirates in Treasure Island. I thought pirates, Paralympics. Hang on a minute. There's something here. So I googled, and I Googled, and there was nothing, nobody had written anything. There was no parallel drawn between pirates and Paralympics. So I started. I spoke to a friend and they and I said, Well, there's nothing out there. Why is nobody written this story, you know? And they said, Well, why don't you write that story? So I did. And then I sat on it. Again, I think fear of failure as much as anything else fear of judgment. Being a bit dyslexic, it's sort of, I got really knocked by my English teacher at school. And so I lacked the confidence to actually pump in a publicize something. So or publish something. So I sat on it until 2016. And of course, the Olympics was round again. And the Paralympics were around again. And I found her and said, Come on your book. Enough now it's got to go out. And so I did I put the first one out and it was very well received and I had a couple of very very young readers that read it me young eight year old turned around to me and said, is Polly real? A Poly is a parrot that was born with one I stolen from her nest in Africa, ends up in Scotland where she's rescued by Captain hiker pirate and she learns to become a pirate. And and so I turned around, and it's a little bit like those sort of questions about you know, is Father Christmas or Santa Claus real. And you never burst a child's bubble. You never ever, in my, that's my rules. You never destroy childhood. You allow a child to be a child for as long as they need to be. And so I chatted to him and I said, How many parents are there in the world? And he said, Ah, auntie, there must be millions. I said yes, because over here they everyday call everybody Auntie's. If you go into a school, they'll call you and your listing they call your auntie, or uncle. And then I said, and do you think any of them are called Polly? He sat down for a moment, he said, I reckon there must be I said, Well, there you go. You've answered your own question, haven't you? So that was how Polly was created. And Polly creates the the Paralympics and they get up to all sorts of things, but they like made me realize Hang on. I mean, I need to actually do a little bit of a backstory here as to the story about Polly is the first one I wrote was just all about the sort of the actual games themselves you know, there's a master chef competition and there's a walk the plank and this time, the rigging gymnastics and what have you. And then I wrote the backstory, which was how they discovered the prosthetics. So my parents have blades and racing wheelchairs and prosthetic hands. And yeah, they they get up to all sorts of antics and lots of fun. So Michael Hingson 29:26you do you publish your own books, or do you have a publisher? Jann Weeratunga 29:33For these this set, I published my own books. I had a publisher for a book I wrote. I actually headed up during lockdown. I had it up nosology called locked down behind the mask. So I had a publisher that because for me, when everybody was wearing masks, it reminded me of when I lived in the Middle East and the burqa, and all you would see is the lady's eyes. So I had a publisher for that one. But otherwise I self published. So they all went up on Amazon. I'm on the 10th. One at the moment. The Halloween Paralympics is finished, but that won't be out until next year. So there'll be two others come out before that one, so, but there's seven on Amazon at the moment. Michael Hingson 30:27So you'll have a ghost pack, you'll have a ghost pirate. Jann Weeratunga 30:31There is a ghost pirates. Yes, they actually meet, they meet Captain Blackbeard and his ghostly crew. And they have to fight their way off his ship with the map, which is the map that takes them to the treasure, which, of course treasure is in the eye of the beholder. And that is their prosthetics. Michael Hingson 30:50That sounds like fun. Have you? Have you made sure that or have you done anything to make sure that the books are accessible? Like for blind people to be able to read? Are they? Are they put out in an accessible form like that at all? Do you know? At Jann Weeratunga 31:09the moment? No. I did have a gentleman that was with the Braille organization in Australia that wanted to actually have them, I suppose you call it translated it into Braille? And unfortunately, he never came back to me. So at the moment, no, I don't I don't have them on audio, audio is very expensive to do. And when I have so many books, because I'm actually up, I think I've been I've got over 40 children's books. So you know, when you're sort of producing a lot of books, it's sort of keeping up with them. And when you don't have a publisher, you have to do everything yourself. So you have to pay for the illustrations, you have to pay for the editing, you have to pay for the proofreading that cover everything that goes into a book, and it's quite costly. So the additional cost of an audiobook is not not something I've yet been able to manage. But I'm still hopeful. So yeah, I'll see what happens with that. Michael Hingson 32:19You might explore something like in this country, there's the National Library Service for Michael Hingson 32:27blinding and well print handicapped, essentially, Vegas, originally National Library Service of the blind, physically handicapped, but it goes beyond that. Anyway, they oftentimes will take books that they think people will read or that are popular, and they will produce them. And the reason they will do that is that they are protected under copyright law. So they are only available for people who have some sort of print disability. But still, that's a pretty good circulation. And what prompted me to ask the question was that I would think that people with disabilities could benefit from what you have to say as much as others do. Jann Weeratunga 33:13Yeah, I mean, for me, it's especially children. I went into a school here, recall, and they have, it's very, it's a mixed school. So they have children with physical disabilities. Unfortunately, not blind children simply because the layout of the school is too dangerous for the kids to be able to navigate. But juggle, there was one young girl, for example, had a prosthetic leg. And I remember going in, and I gave a number of books into the school, and I did a whole day chatting to the kids about disabilities. Because I believe very much about educating young people. And I think, I mean, chatting to you, for me is a real privilege. Because I think very often, by the time we're adults, we're too embarrassed or nervous to ask questions. And because we don't ask questions, we tend to avoid talking to somebody with a disability. And the children don't have that same barrier. You know, that they don't see color. They don't see disability. When I describe it a little bit like you know, being inside the box looking out as opposed to adults who are outside the box looking in. And I very much believe that if we can have young people able bodied as well as disabled reading books were characters have disabilities and I mean, as you my books are a complete flip in in many ways. So the norm because most of my characters have disabilities As Of course, they're pirates. So they've got something missing or they're blind, or they're deaf or whatever. So I've probably got about 80% of my characters that are actually disabled. Whereas most books may be, you might get 10% If you're lucky. So for me, it's important because young people, then able bodied and disabled can can read these books. And this particular young young lady I was talking to you about, I was invited back to the school about six weeks later. And she saw me across the car at the car park, and she came for flying over. And she flow her arms around me. And she said, auntie, auntie, thank you for writing that book for me. And I had this most enormous lump in my throat, that seems to be there for five minutes, I'm sure it was just only there for maybe five or 10 seconds before I could get, you know, regain my composure, because it had meant so much for her to be able to identify with other characters in the book, you know. So I think it's very important that these stories are available to young people, as I say, both able bodied and disabled, because I think it gives an understanding, I think it gives an empathy and an education to both. Michael Hingson 36:29You not only does it I absolutely agree it, it does. And that's again, one of the reasons I asked about audio or more another accessible version, I would, would think that Michael Hingson 36:47some people may shoot me for it. But with AI today, the so called artificial intelligence and the number of voices that are out there, that there ought to be some ways to convert the books relatively easily by comparison to even five years ago to audio, and then publish them. And Jann Weeratunga 37:09I did actually purchase a program that I can't remember the name of it now, because I'm not techie minded, but I was advised that that was the best fit at the time. But it's it sounds so mechanical. Yeah. It still didn't, it didn't flow and the emphasis wasn't on the words. Right, what I felt the emphasis should be if you know what I mean. So I do, I have actually recorded I'm very lucky, I do some work with a local school here, I actually scribe for for some of the boys. And they allow me to use their music rooms, which are all sort of, you know, soundproof. So I've actually recorded some myself, I've got one of the books is actually up on YouTube. That's the first of the poly books, and it's up in four sections. But the whole book is actually actually up there. And that's how Polly became a pirate. So I have actually sort of started this myself. And I've done it sort of through the YouTube roots. But yeah, there have Michael Hingson 38:18been so many great strides in voice technology. And so on that that even in six months, it might be a lot better. I don't know, I've seen some some discussions where I think there might be some some good voice, artificial voice things that are a lot better. But certainly if you can do it, that would make a lot more sense to do by any standard. Jann Weeratunga 38:44Yeah, yeah. Let's say and I quite enjoy reading my own stories as well to two kids. So it's, it's something I enjoy doing as well. Michael Hingson 38:54There are now some programs that can take your voice and create unlimited vocabulary speech. If it has enough of your voice to learn from how do we find your books? While you're one book on YouTube? Let me ask that. Jann Weeratunga 39:14Row. I think basically, you just go January Tonga, YouTube, and it will come up. Okay. How Polycom virus Yeah, I think I Michael Hingson 39:23look for it. I have to go look for it. I want to read about Polly Jann Weeratunga 39:29Okey doke. Good. So Michael Hingson 39:31is writing kind of full time job for you? Or do you have other work that you do to help income or what? Jann Weeratunga 39:38No writing is my full time job. That is what I do. I love writing for kids. It's a real I think it's a passion. You know, you either love it or you just don't go near it. And prior to COVID I used to be in schools two, three times a week. I was always is in a school somewhere up here. I even did a tour down on the Eastern Cape and took a couple of other authors with me. So, yeah, it's, it's become literally full time. And at the moment I'm putting out a book roughly one book a month? Well, I Michael Hingson 40:19think I think it's really important that your books, get out there and get visible. And so since it is your full time job, I'm assuming that you do write every day. Jann Weeratunga 40:33I pretty well write five days a week, I tried to just have a bit of time off at the weekends, sort of family time, but Monday to Friday. The house is quiet by six o'clock, everybody else's. So I actually sit then, and I write usually to that too. And then whatever sort of household bits and pieces need to be sorted out or shopping or whatever, whatever gets done in the afternoon, so but yeah, I put a good six hours in and it's a bit like people that do physical exercise, you know, you build up your muscles, and is a sort of, I believe it's like building up your mental muscles. You know, the more you write. I mean, I picked up, Polly, I haven't written Polly for quite a long time actually. I wrote a younger series, because a lot of people came to me and said, can't Can't you write a pirate series for younger children as well. So I had the patches pirate pals. And for a year, we literally put out a book a month, or 12 books out there on that series No, like on? Yeah. Michael Hingson 41:44Are those books, oh, Jann Weeratunga 41:46they're all short little 32, page eight by 10 inches by 10. But those ones, I've actually left the illustrations to be colored in by the kids because I feel, especially with boys, they tend to be a bit more than sort of reluctant readers and you hear coloring in it sort of attaches them to the book, and they gain a bit more of an interest in the book. And from that you gain an interest in the words and the story, etc, etc. So that whole series was like that. I've just produced one from my niece. She's three in two weeks time. And she actually was my my illustrating editor, he saw the pictures and either like them or didn't, which was quite interesting. So my poor illustrator had to redo a couple. And I'd given her a toy dinosaur Bronwyn, the dinosaur. And my sister said to me at one point, you can't see anything except purple because Bronwyn eating the phone. And that was because I've sent the picture of Bronwyn, for my niece to approve. And so she was actually using the dinosaur to kiss the phone to those he liked it. So yeah. So but that one's a mixture of color, color and drawing. And so there is a color picture. And an opposite is the same picture just as an outline. And the kids can either use the same colors or their own imaginations. And I believe very much in that as well. I think it's very important that young people use their imaginations, you know, things have changed from from when we were children. You know, when we were kids, we would play outside, we would, you know, almost have fights with brothers or sisters or mock fights or, you know, we played cowboys and Indians or whatever it was we were doing, we do it. And we maybe would watch television for an hour in the evening, sort of Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday and Friday. Weekends was always sports. So that was dad's time type of thing. But today, it's changed. And we didn't have computers, we didn't have smart telephones, we didn't have any of those things. You know, we used to sit there and do this huge Jigsaw which was four foot by four foot square, on our dining room table, you know, every evening was in pieces in type of thing. But today, it's changed. And I think young kids are in a way missing out and missing out on the opportunity to expand their imaginations because so much is spoon fed to them. So much as you know, Google is wonderful. I fall down the rabbit hole with Google all the time when I'm researching my books. And some of the stuff I come I find is just absolutely mind blowing. But it gives you everything. And I think with young people, if they're given too much, they don't use their imaginations that so that's one of the reasons why I like to. I've, I've created I've actually created two journals. which a guided journal is for very young children to start journaling, you know, so it sort of helps them guide them through. And that's actually part of the practice part ELS series, which is really aimed at sort of four to seven year olds, they're very young ones, maybe up to nine, depending on, you know, ability levels. But it's getting them to use their imagination, to write their story, their poem, draw their drawing, or coloring with the colors that they want to use. And if they want to give somebody green hair, that's fine. They know what color hair is. But let them use their imagination. Let them be creative. Michael Hingson 45:42We don't do nearly enough of that. And I absolutely agree with you. The the problem with so much television is that everything is just for store, everything is there, there's no imagination. It didn't used to be that way. Even in television, of course, early in televisions era, there was, it was an issue where you had both television and radio. And so people were were used to helping individuals use their imagination. But the longer television has gone on, the more we just put everything out there and there's nothing left for a person's imagination. I collect old radio shows as a hobby, and I love listening to old shows, because they still make you use your imagination. And even now, there are new series. And again, people have to use their imagination and fill in a lot of blanks that are deliberately left and can't be there because there are no pictures to look at. So you've got to do it. And I think television should do more of that. Jann Weeratunga 46:52Yeah. And books as well. I mean, I think books are wonderful. You know, when I go into in schools, and I open the book, and I say to the children, right, what am I doing? And I'm literally I'm standing there and I'm opening a book, okay? And they say you're opening a book? And I say, Yes, but what else am I doing? And they look puzzled. And I said, I'm opening up the pages to your imagination. And then what is imagination? What is it? And I remember one youngster gave a wonderful definition that it's like dreaming, but your eyes are open. But the story is in your head, and you can see it like a film, attitude. And I thought that is exactly it. Because I know, when I write my books, when I'm writing about Polly, especially Polly, Polly has a very she's very special. Polly and my parents are very special. They, that's my comfortable place. Whenever I go back to Holly. And I can see her, I can hear she's almost talking in my ear. When I'm writing her. It's a weird sort of relationship that I think a writer has with their characters. But she's so real for me. It's almost like she's speaking. And I'm just using my hands to write the words if that makes any sense. Yeah. So it's, it's wonderful. From my point of view, because I can just let my imagination go all over the place, you know. And then when you actually are reading the story, and you watch the kids faces, it is so special. Because you can see, they can see it in their heads. They can take their imagination, they can see the pictures, like a little film, you know? Yeah. Michael Hingson 49:05Well and and that's the way imagination should be now, here's a question does skip and where Polly ended up does Polly have a Scottish accent? Sort of Jann Weeratunga 49:17weird actually. And he definitely has a Scottish accent. And all of his crew do. He has a cruiser quite there's nine crews and they each have quite definitive accent so the the Caribbean Jamaican crew has very Caribbean the turbaned Indians very much the cowboy Americans very much with an American lil. So each each crew I've actually given their own voice, which is important because it also brings diversity for the kids to understand the world is quite a big place that we live in. So we've got tattooed Maori And we've got Scandinavians, we've got Scots, we've got Zulus, we've got Greek goddesses, we, you know, we've got the the Japanese ninjas, you know, there's all these different crews that are very different. But they all belong to the fellowship of pirates, right? Michael Hingson 50:21That's really the issue, isn't it? Jann Weeratunga 50:24Yeah. Yeah. You know, what am I realize we're actually all the same, we all want the same things. Michael Hingson 50:31One of the things that I talked about, on the podcast, I'm not going to spend a lot of time on it today, because people hear it enough. But you talked about able bodied and disabled people, I work to try to get people to understand that disability doesn't mean and I know you're saying somewhat the same thing. disability does not mean a lack of ability. Disability is a characteristic. And I would submit that everyone has a disability, everyone in the world. And for most of you, as I tell people, it's like dependents, you know, when the lights go out, and you don't have an iPhone, or a smartphone of any sort, or a flashlight nearby, you're in a world of hurt, because you can't see what you're doing. So I submit that we need to get away from making a distinction between so called Able bodied and persons with disabilities, because everyone has one. And what we really need to do is to recognize that disability is a characteristic, and it manifests itself in different ways. Yeah, Jann Weeratunga 51:32yeah. 100% 100%. I mean, it's even down to one, you might disagree with me on this. But if all you've ever wanted to do is ride a bicycle, and you have no sense of balance, and you cannot ride a bicycle, you are effectively disabled. You are disabled from being able to ride a bicycle. Now, people argument they know that that's not really a proper disability. Sure, Michael Hingson 52:03it is. It's a it's a characteristic. Jann Weeratunga 52:06Exactly. Exactly. And I think that's, I think you and I are very much on the same page for this. And I know we had a little chat for a few months about that back end. Back Michael Hingson 52:17in the day. Yeah, it's been a while. Jann Weeratunga 52:21Yeah, we touched on it. But But But I agree 100% I think we all have a disability. But one of the things I do say is disability does not mean inability, correct. Michael Hingson 52:33It does not mean a lack of ability, it just means you have something. Jann Weeratunga 52:39Yes. And I think each each gift is different. And it makes us see the world in a different way. So for example, because I have dyslexia, I have to work a little bit harder. With my writing. There's nothing wrong with my grammar, there's nothing wrong with the my my word order, or the words I use, until I try and type them and then very often they can come out backwards, or I mean to this day, if I type the word, the, I can guarantee guarantee 90% of the time, it comes out HTTP II. Okay, and that's, and my fingers know what they should be doing. To this date, they know what they should be doing. But Michael Hingson 53:29they know what you want them to do, but they have their mind of their own. Jann Weeratunga 53:33They do return. So bit of what I'm trying to say there is that, you know, disability, if you if you look at the figures as such, they say that between 20 and 25% of the world is disabled. Those are the disabilities that can be measured. The other 75% they also have disabilities, they just don't admit to it. Right, exactly right. And now the stigmas that are attached to disability. And again, that's why inside the box looking out outside the box looking in, which starts for me with children, because if you are a child inside the box with others use you just as I said earlier, kids don't see disability, they're just friends, right? They all get on with each other. And if somebody can't do something, they'll help them or if they won't help them, they'll believe them or whatever. But the kids will learn to stand up for themselves. And they will get through that Michael Hingson 54:30until adults until adults get in the way. Jann Weeratunga 54:33And so the adults get in the way Exactly. But But what I'm saying is when that group of children become adults, and that's where we haven't got that that's why I believe we haven't got to yet. We're getting there but it's not got there yet. When that group of children become adults, because they've grown up with a whole range of people, different races, different colors, different abilities. It's just normal, it's what's around them. Whereas at the moment, we're having to constantly play catch up. And we're having to put into companies and businesses, the the structures for people with disabilities to be able to go to work. Michael Hingson 55:23As long as those, Jann Weeratunga 55:25it will just automatically be there. Because those are going to be the new bosses, Michael Hingson 55:30as long as they don't forget. As long as they don't forget. Jann Weeratunga 55:35But that's if we don't interfere. Right. Michael Hingson 55:41So when is Polly going to be in a movie? Jann Weeratunga 55:46Oh, my goodness, the big question. Yes, I've actually finally sorted out my pitch. And that's taken a long time. And I've actually a gentleman called Steve Longley. He has been my fairy godfather. He produced Hacksaw Ridge, which is a slightly different type of movie to what we're probably going to be. But he's been a real mentor. And that's why I'm giving you a little bit of a shout out to him, because he doesn't have to help me. He doesn't know me from a bar. So I introduced myself on LinkedIn to him one day, which is, of course, how I met met Sheldon and through Sheldon, you. And he, he's given me so much confidence. So my pictures ready. I'm helping a friend launch their book tomorrow, which has taken up most of the last two weeks. And once that's done, I'm actually going to be going out to producers and directors to see if I will hook somebody that will actually produce it. Because to me, it's important. And I think whether it becomes a TV series or a movie, I don't mind, it probably lends itself more to animation, simply because so many of the characters have disabilities. And I think the insurance for that, in real life would would go through the roof on a movie set? I don't know, but I think so. But it leads me on also to something again, that we touched on before. And that was basically when we were talking about actors, disabled actors. And at the moment most most actors sort of literally have a wheel on reel off for a walk on walk off part. There are no real central characters based around disability or very, very few very emerge now. There's one or two sort of characters that are, you know, building up or what have you. But one of the things I've been advocating for is, why can't disabled actors do voiceovers and dubbing there's nothing stopping them to do those doing those things. We need Michael Hingson 57:56to we need to talk offline about some of that because there's an organization called Radio enthusiast of Puget Sound and a whole group of people who are blind. And the president of that organization also is the lead in a radio Well, internet radio stations called yesterday usa.net. And there's a red network in a blue network, like there is on a piece on NBC in the golden days of radio. And there actually is some work being done to try to create some programs to encourage blind people to go into doing more audio type stuff. So we should talk about that offline. Jann Weeratunga 58:39I think so. I think so. Yeah. Michael Hingson 58:43Speaking of Washington, that's what we're going to do next month is go up and do for radio show recreations. And I and some other blind people and non blind people are all going to be parts of the show. Now Jann Weeratunga 58:54that's so cool. It's so cool. I've got a friend here, Lois. And she's just done an art exhibition. And I found it. It was a concept that I found quite difficult to get my mind around, obviously. You know, how can somebody who's blind do an art exhibition, but she's actually working with a group of people down in Cape Town, a group of blind students found in Cape Town, and some have maybe 10% site up to they have just a little bit but not very much, you know, and they're doing amazing, amazing work and I and I think just bringing more of this it needs to be funded, it needs to be supported. I mean, South Africa there's no funding for anything. We don't have electricity most of the time internet sometimes and water when they feel like it. But, but but, you know, in Western countries where there is a little bit more money, I think these things need to be fun. Need more supported a lot more than they are? And I suppose, unless we started up and start shouting, it won't happen. And so that's one of the reasons why I want to see my pirates and poly made into either a film or set of films or a TV series. Again, because it's something that everybody can enjoy. Maybe Michael Hingson 1:00:23well, Todd, what can I do? Sorry? Maybe we also want to explore making it into an audio series. Hmm, Jann Weeratunga 1:00:34I think so. I think so. Yeah, definitely. Michael Hingson 1:00:37How do we increase the conversation around disabilities and get people? I know, you've talked about one way as children grow up, but what else can we do as adults to break through some of those barriers and get the conversation? more a part of the mainstream? Jann Weeratunga 1:00:59Oh, gosh. Well, I think number one, we have to identify the problems. And I think the main problems are and I'm going to talk about disability disabled and able bodied, if you will, just sort of entertain me on that. The more able bodied, shall we say? folk out there feel awkward talking to people with disabilities, they will shun away from speaking to somebody with a disability, they will avoid going to help somebody with a disability. And I think it's just such a stigma. And it's not the disabled person. I don't think it's the individual. It's just the whole sphere of disabilities. And I, I've watched LinkedIn recently, and there's a lot more out there and a lot more stories coming out. And I think I think that's a really good thing. And I think things like I know, the Paralympics does focus on the physical, and the Disabilities is a lot more than that. I mean, people in wheelchairs are only 8% of those with disabilities. Yeah, what is the symbol that we use for the disabled? It's, it's a word character in a wheelchair. Right. Yeah. You know, so. And I know there is a movement towards possibly changing that. I don't know how why is that is, in the sense that I understand why, but at least is recognized as a symbol for disabled. You know, there's pros and cons around everything. Yeah. And I think I think we just have to talk more, I think there needs to be, I think, all right, I think people are frightened. It's like when I first spoke with Lois, because I think she was the first blind person I spoke with. And I said, Louis, can I ask you a question? Should you ask me anything? But I thought I had actually say, may I ask you the question? Because I felt awkward. I didn't want to cause offence. I didn't want to be rude. I didn't want to say something that will upset. And I think that's part of it. With a lot of people. And we have to get over it. We have and I think that's what Sheldon did that for me. Actually, he was wonderful. We had an hour long chit chat. And I was chatting to him about how to use some of the analytics in LinkedIn and stuff as well, you know, stuff he had, and been able to do, and what have you. And it was so nice, because I felt so much more comfortable at the end of the conversation than obviously, I had at the start of the conversation. And I think just the more able bodied people, a person is, they just need to get over it. They just need to start talking to people. But it's our and it's hard. And that's why I go back to kids because I think, you know, to a degree we have to start with young people and educate them and bring them through the system. But then what do we do with all of us old is sitting at the top end. Michael Hingson 1:04:20But the awkwardness is more of a learned behavior than anything else. We we don't like to think that just because someone is different than us. They're necessarily at the same level we are. And we we grow up learning that which is in part why I said I hoped that children today don't forget as they grow up, because it's a learned behavior. And you're right. It's great to start with children, and the more children get to be involved in the conversation and carry on the conversation. and don't have the fear, the better it is, oh, Jann Weeratunga 1:05:03well, I'll give you an example on something. My niece, as I mentioned earlier is going to be three. One of the things my sister did with her, when for about six months on, she taught her how to sign. Now my niece isn't there. But there's a movement in the UK to teach babies to sign. Because they can sign I'm hungry, I'm full. I would like more. And, you know, I mean, there's obviously a lot more signs than those, I've just taken three, the very basic ones, they can do that six to eight months before they can speak up. So they can communicate on a level to express themselves, which also reduces frustration, and anger. And I'm actually trying to learn there's a guy called the Deaf chef on Instagram, and I'm following him. And every day, he comes out with a new sign. And I've been trying to learn some of those number one, so I can keep up with my knees and get better at styling than I am. But also, sign language actually just became 12 official language in South Africa. And I went to a restaurant one day, and there was a lady there. And I asked her a question, and then she sort of put her hand to it yet and said, you know, yeah, basically, you know, was was telling me she was deaf. So I wrote it down, because I couldn't sign. But the only thing I had looked say was, thank you. So at the end of the conversation, I actually just gave the sign of Thank you. And her face just lit up. It was the only thing I knew how to do. But have it made her day. You know? And and I just think that we we need to all make more of an effort, I suppose. And I think things like, Why can't say why can't we have sign language in schools? You know, over here, we have 11 languages, and they're all taught in school. So why can't we have some language taught and useful? The more we communicate, the more we talk to each other. The more I think barriers will come down. And we've got to get over this stigma of disability. And again, it's that word, isn't it? disability? Michael Hingson 1:07:25And only YouTube anytime we need to learn it doesn't mean Yeah, because it's not a lack of ability. Jann Weeratunga 1:07:30Exactly. Michael Hingson 1:07:33If people want to reach out to you and learn more about you, how do they do that? Jann Weeratunga 1:07:38Okay, so they can they can email me. And I've actually, I think I've given you some of my links. Yeah, Michael Hingson 1:07:48we'll go ahead and spell out email if you want to or whatever. Go ahead and say it here as well, please. Okay, Jann Weeratunga 1:07:54what is quite a complicated kind of fortunately, but it's, it's, well, I'll give you my easy one. I've got one which is Jann Weeratunga, which is? No, maybe that's not the easier one. I think they'll probably is. It's J a n S Jans, Pics P i C S. SA for South africa@gmail.com. Jan's pics SA for South Africa, Michael Hingson 1:08:21at Gmail. com. That's pretty easy. Great. Well, I want to thank you for being here. And we will be putting the book covers and all the other things up in the cover notes. And I hope people will reach out this has clearly been fun and fascinating. And I want to continue our discussions later offline. We got to do some of that. And I think it will be a lot of fun to have you back on again when the next poli book comes out and talk about that and other things as well. So we really appreciate you being here. And of course, I want to thank you all for listening out there. We are very grateful that you do we'd love you to please give us a five star rating wherever you're listening to unstoppable mindset Michael Hingson 1:09:03today, please give us a five star rating we appreciate that and we appreciate your comments and reviews. If you'd like to reach out to me you can do it by emailing me at Michaelhi at ccessibe.com Michael is m i c h a e l h i at accessiBe A C C E S S I B E.com. And also you're welcome to go to our podcast page www dot Michael hingson.com/podcast and hingson is h i n g s o n but we want to thank you again for listening. I really appreciate it hope you enjoy this and as I said we want your comments and your five star reviews we value that very highly. And then again chan I want to thank you one last time for being on with us today and and talking to us about so many different things and we clearly we have to continue this on another podcast episode. Jann Weeratunga 1:09:55Absolutely. And thank you so very much for having me. It's been an absolute pleasure. I've really really enjoyed it. Thank you. Michael Hingson 1:10:06You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com . AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

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On this episode I have the pleasure of speaking with Kelly Campbell who is a trauma-informed leadership coach, speaker, facilitator, writer, and author. She also leads Consciousness Leaders—the world’s most diverse and equitable speakers’ agency. Kelly grew up in a home that, as she describes it, was more challenging than most. She tells us that even though she strived to be the perfect daughter by excelling at academics, sports, and other endeavors, she did not feel loved and, in fact, felt that she was “unlovable”. She will take us on her journey of learning how to accept the traumatic issues she faced and eventually learned how not only to articulate what happened to her, but also how she learned to recognize that she could learn to love herself. Today, among other things, Kelly coaches leaders on how to better their lives by recognizing the traumas they face and have faced. As she tells us, most all of us have faced traumas whether we choose to recognize it or not. We learn the value of addressing issues and becoming better leaders and people at home, at work and throughout our entire life. About the Guest: Kelly L. Campbell (they/she) inspires revelation and responsibility in leaders across the globe. As a trauma-informed leadership coach, speaker, facilitator, writer, and author, they empower self-aware visionaries to correlate their past wounds to their leadership style, transforming the way they lead, live, and love. Her debut book, Heal to Lead: Revolutionizing Leadership through Trauma Healing (Wiley) will be released in April 2024. They write for Entrepreneur, have written for Forbes, and offer exclusive content to their Substack community, “The New TLC: Trauma, Leadership, and Consciousness.” Early in their career, Kelly was the founder and CEO of a cause marketing agency and sold it in 2016, which led her to advise Fortune 50 corporations, non-profits, government organizations, and marketing and advertising agencies. They have hosted two top-rated podcasts since 2006—one on holistic health and wellness and the other on conscious leadership for marketing and advertising agency leaders. A long-time conservationist, Kelly was trained by Al Gore as a Climate Reality Leader in 2017. Most recently, they became certified as a Reiki Level III Practitioner. Kelly’s vision is to empower more than half of humanity to heal its childhood trauma so that we may reimagine and rebuild the world together. Ways to connect with Kelly: Book Pre-Order: https://klcampbell.com/heal-to-lead-book/ Website: https://klcampbell.com/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/kelly.l.campbell LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellylcampbell/ Substack: https://kellylcampbell.substack.com/ Leadership Quiz: https://klcampbell.com/leadership/ Healing Resources: https://myhealingmenu.com About the Host:Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children’s Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association’s 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.comhttps://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/https://twitter.com/mhingsonhttps://www.youtube.com/user/mhingsonhttps://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ accessiBe Linkshttps://accessibe.com/https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBehttps://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can also subscribe in your favorite podcast app. Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.

Transcription Note:

Michael Hingson 00:00Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us. Michael Hingson 01:20Well, hi, everyone, welcome to unstoppable mindset wherever you happen to be in the world. We're glad you're here. Today we get to have a conversation with Kelly Campbell. And I got to tell you a little bit about my history with Kelly, there is a history isn't that something anyway, I last year was beginning to seek out speaking opportunities and discovered Kelly's consciousness leaders, speaker's bureau and technology and company that helped speakers find opportunities and wrote to her, and along the way learned from her executive assistant that excessively had sponsored her podcast in 2022. And of course, AccessiBe is the the organization behind what we do here. So there was some great synergy and we well, she agreed to represent us and in the speaking world. And also, of course, I had to say, Kelly, you got to come on the podcast, and it only took six months to get around. But here it is. And Kelly, we're really glad you're on unstoppable mindset after that story. And thanks very much for being here. Kelly Campbell 02:30Michael, it is my absolute pleasure. Yeah, synergy is the word there was so much synergy when we first met. So I'm glad to be working together in lots of different ways. Michael Hingson 02:38Yeah, you gotta keep that going. It'll be a lot of fun. Well, tell us a little bit about kind of the early Kelly growing up and all that sort Michael Hingson 02:45of stuff. Oh, the early Kelly, Michael Hingson 02:48I know it doesn't that make it fun? Kelly Campbell 02:49Well, you know, listen, none of us had perfect childhoods. Mine was just a little more imperfect than most. And so, you know, the way that I grew up, I, I, you know, grew up with a mother who had basically, comorbidity conditions of borderline personality disorder and narcissistic personality disorder. And I didn't know any of those words when I was a kid, right. And my dad ended up leaving, they kind of got an unofficially separated, I guess you call it when I was about nine. And so he was sort of my protector in the house. And so when he left, it was like my heartbeat. hypervigilance went on overdrive. And I think for many, many years, I would say even decades, it took me a long time to figure out how to how to get out of that nervous system dysregulation. And again, I don't have any of these words or any of this understanding for a very long time. So Michael Hingson 03:54that's usually what you know what happens kids know something's going on, but can't really describe it or articulate it. Kelly Campbell 04:03Yeah, yeah. So I knew something was off. I knew I had to protect myself, and in some ways, and I think I did a pretty good job of that. But what I also came to understand was the ways in which I was in the world, meaning, you know, in academics or in my social settings in my athletic career, I was, you know, trying to become this perfect persona, you know, in every single way. And it was really at the heart of it. It was I didn't understand that there was a disconnect between her ability to love me, I thought it was if I just did this thing more perfectly if I just got these straight A's and was captain of all these sports teams and got a full ride to college and she wouldn't be proud and she would she would love me. And she didn't have the tools to do that. But so I took that to mean that I was unlovable. All right. So I know the title of your podcast is unstoppable, unstoppable mindset, but I felt unlovable. And so I didn't feel very unstoppable. And so creating, you know, I tried a little dip of the toe in the water of corporate America right after college and that that didn't work for me. Immediately I created, you know, an organization, I started a digital marketing agency that focused on nonprofits and foundations and social impact initiatives. I was an avid conservationist and really was an advocate for the environment, and you know, all the things that we can do ourselves. And so I took all of that passion and all of that and created this agency. And so I had this digital marketing agency for about 14 years, I ended up selling it in 2016. And, you know, yeah, that was that was about eight years ago. And now I've been a consultant to Facebook and NASA. I have been, essentially a trauma informed leadership coach for the last few years. And I get to work with leaders in all different sectors on really what I did, which was correlating their childhood trauma, with their leadership style, the way that they show up in leadership leadership position today. Michael Hingson 06:33Well, you know, a question that comes to mind is, okay, so you had the situation that you had as a child, and you worked really hard to be loved. And as you pointed out, your mother didn't have the tools? Well, so before I ask the question, I'm really thinking of, did that ever change? Has it ever changed with her? Or is it kind of just No, you know, she, Kelly Campbell 06:57she said, I write about this in the book, which I know will touch upon, she sort of, I'll call it she opted out of my life when I was about four. And so I have not had any contact with her in 20 years. Michael Hingson 07:11Okay, so the question that I really was thinking of is, so all of that happened. But you I gather really did Excel, and you were the captain of teams, you've got great grades and so on. So as you look back on an even though what occurred, did happen? Do you feel that you feel positive? Or do you feel that all that was, in a sense, now worth it now that you can look back on it? Kelly Campbell 07:39I think everything was worth it. I think, you know, I have a very different mindset about what it was, I think I live to be really honest, I lived for many years in the State of victimization or victimhood. And oh, you know, these things happen to me, right were imposed upon me. And I think once the, you know, I started doing the deeper inner work, that mindset started to shift. And it was like, I, I have agency, I didn't just start an agency, I actually have agency to figure out how I want to live the rest of my life. And this is not it. This is not it. Michael Hingson 08:16Yeah. And that's what I was, was getting to is that your mindset shifted? And I'm assuming that you no longer feel that you're unlovable. Oh, Kelly Campbell 08:27not at all. There you go. But I will say the difference is that not it wasn't just about my mother, right? Yeah, it was any external validation or getting that, you know, I am lovable because so and so feels this way about me or cares about me or loves right? It that the need for that has fallen away over all of these years of doing this work. And I understand now that I am lovable because I love me, right? So the only thing that matters, but it takes people and it sounds so simple, Michael, but it takes a very, very long time, most of us until mid life to figure that out. And some of us don't ever figure it out. Yeah. Michael Hingson 09:06Or we figure it out even much later. And it's so unfortunate that that we have, well, we don't have the tools to figure out some of those things a lot earlier. And of course, as a child as a kid. It's it's hard to associate that and so you look to your parents, you look up to your parents, and you talked about what your father did for you and what your mother didn't do for you. But it's taken a long time to really gain the rest of the tools necessary to put a better perspective on all that. You Kelly Campbell 09:41got it. You got it. Yeah. And you know, I do have a close relationship with my father. I would love an even closer relationship with him. You know, he also and I do write about this in the book. He had his own, you know, tumultuous upbringing with physical abuse from his stepfather. Other, and I'm not sure that he ever really has integrated that or addressed that. And so I think that there's a little bit of, you know, I don't know, just a lack of understanding that there is a closeness that could happen, there's a depth to relationship that could happen if he were to go ahead and break through those things. However, as much as I want that, for him, that is not my responsibility as a child. It's, it's really up to him. And that's the thing, it's up to each one of us to determine the way that my life is going, the relate the quality of the relationships that I have, are not everything that I think that they could be, or that I hope that they could be. And so now I have to look inward and say, you know, where is my contribution to that? And how do I want that to change? How, how committed Am I to helping those changes be brought about? Yeah, Michael Hingson 10:58and as I was, was thinking in going to say, the fact is that the journey continues, and so you're going to even learn more as you go forward, which can only help. That's right. It's a matter of looking for it. And most of us don't take a lot of time to be introspective and look at what we do or why we do what we do and how we do it. I'm a strong advocate for people should take time at the end of every day looking at what happened that day. And I never like to view things as a failure. I can view things as well, this didn't work. So what do I learn from that? Because I have to teach me as to how to deal with it. But the bottom line is that we, we should really take time to look at what didn't work and what worked and how can we make it even better? And what does that mean for our lives. And we mostly don't do that, oh, I don't have the time, I've got to get right to sleep, because I gotta get up in the morning. And we miss such golden opportunities to start to think about that. Yeah, Kelly Campbell 11:59yeah. And that could come in a variety of different ways, right? Are the cerebral resources that are available to us through guided meditations and podcasts and books that we might listen to or read, there are so many ways to enter this realm, you know, to just get started to just, I don't know, really get curious and start to understand that there are all of these resources available to us. And all we have to do is just pull the thread or lean into what feels resonant for us. Michael Hingson 12:36Right? Yeah, and, and then follow through on it, Kelly Campbell 12:39and then follow through on it, because it's not just about the cerebral, right, we're talking about integrating trauma, really at the heart of this. And so you can't think your way out of a feeling that is in your body and literally in your you know, stuck in your sort of your nervous system and your fascia and, you know, in your, in your physical body. So the combination of the cerebral, the mindset work, the mindfulness, and the somatic work, you know, the movement, the emotional release, there are lots and lots of healing modalities, trauma integration modalities available to us. Most people think of therapy. And that's it. That therapy is one, one out of literally millions of modalities that are available to us. Well, Michael Hingson 13:27and the other thing about therapy is people think, Oh, I'll go to therapy. And I'll get all the answers because the therapist will give me the answers. And therapists do help give you answers. And coaches help guide you to answers. But still, none of those matter if you don't do something about it once you are given opportunities or discover opportunities. Kelly Campbell 13:49Yeah, yeah. And there are a lot of people who said, Yeah, I'm doing the work, quote, unquote, I've been in therapy for 15 years, like I was, and you know, therapy is wonderful, especially if you haven't talked to anyone before about what is going on in your life and what's on your heart and things that are, you know, maybe behaviors that you're not happy with. That's a wonderful thing. Staying in that relationship, though, and continuously just talking about it, sort of, in in many cases, I won't say all cases, because there are lots of therapists who specialize in different things. But in many cases, a lot of people stay stuck in repetitive patterns. You know, and if if you really to your point, if you want to make the change, it is about committing and doing things different through other types of modalities, and some of those modalities don't rely on another person. Right. Those are things that you're doing yourself. So yeah, there's there's a lot and no healing journey looks the same. It's not linear, you know? Michael Hingson 14:57Yeah, but it isn't for any of us and you may You try something and it doesn't really work or seem to work for you. And so you don't give up, you need to try something else until you find something that works. And you also have to look at what it is you're trying to achieve and what it is that you're trying to accomplish. Kelly Campbell 15:13That's right. That's right. Because just like anything, you have to set a goal or or not even a goal so much as maybe there's some little shift. Maybe the goal is I want to feel less anxious. Maybe the goal is I want to feel more comfortable in my skin in my body. Maybe, you know, so they're not I think goal is maybe not the best word, but they are things that you are interested in changing. Modifying. Michael Hingson 15:43Yeah. Yeah. That makes sense. So what is trauma? We we it's a word we hear all the time, what what really is it, we Kelly Campbell 15:54hear the word trauma every single day. Whether we're talking to a friend or scrolling on Instagram, or something like that, it has become a pretty, I don't know, just like a word of the year, I think it probably will be the word of the year for 2024. Trauma, it is derived from the Greek word for which means wound, right. But what we're talking about here is beyond that, we're not talking necessarily about physical wounds, although that could be trauma, or talking about unintegrated information. So not the events that have happened to you at some point in your life, whether that's in childhood or older, not the events themselves, but what happens inside your body because of that event, or events or prolonged scenario, right. So it could be a one time event that you experience, but what your body and your mind and your psyche are remembering in your tissues. Because it's not memory, it's Think of it like a body sensation, right? A something that is triggered in your nervous system that says this was an unsafe thing, or this was an experience that I do not want to experience again. So now I'm going to be hyper vigilant to make sure that I protect myself from not experiencing that again, right. So I say, I specify that it's not the event, not only because we know that from, you know, experts like Dr. Gabor Ma Tei and Bessel Vander Kolk. But we know that if you and I experienced the same event, it may not have been traumatic for you. And it may have been traumatic for me, right? So there's a subjectivity to this stuff. It's a lot of nuance. But at the end of the day, it's a situation where we have been feeling overwhelmed and unable to cope with a stressor. Right, and that stressor, we don't have to determine whether that is big T trauma, small t trauma, because again, there's subjectivity to it just an overwhelm, and overwhelm, and an inability to integrate the information. Michael Hingson 18:19So how does trauma intersect or become involved in dealing with leadership? What does it mean in the context of leadership? Kelly Campbell 18:28Well, I mean, leaders are humans, right? So we can't pretend that once we stepped into a leadership role, if we put a suit on or, you know, some other expression of leadership, quote, unquote, that all of the trauma and all of those experiences and all of the maladaptive behaviors that we have because of it, that they just fall away, right, we can't pretend that that happens. That doesn't happen. Because we're, we're the same person internally, whether we are showing up at work, or we're with our family, or we are at home. We just wear masks, because we don't think that we will be seen as competent. If we bring our true selves, our authentic selves, our genuine selves, the real us into those scenarios. So, you know, this is this is a huge passion of mine and has become become really my life's work is this integral, this intersection between trauma and leadership? Because no one is talking about these things. And we yet we are very aware of them. They are in our faces all the time, right in our political leaders, in our corporate leaders. We see on the news, the Elon Musk's of the world and all of these other people who clearly we know in some way, shape or form that there's something off quote unquote about them. Really the These are wounded humans, right? Elon Musk has been very vocal about some of the things that he's experienced in childhood, at, you know, really in relationship to his father and some of the abuse that he endured through his peers when he was younger. So there was a feeling of powerlessness. And I just use this example, because there are a lot of people who are familiar with him, and is the innovation in which he leads. But a lot of people are not familiar with how actually terrible he is, as a people leader. And you know, a lot of that is stems from childhood trauma, where he felt powerless, he is now projecting that I will never feel that powerless again, I will be the richest and most powerful man in the world. He said that when he was eight years old, and boy, has that come true. Michael Hingson 20:58Yeah. The other side of it, though, is that if he did take a different tact in terms of how he dealt with people, how much I hate to use the word but more powerful, or more influential, he would really be? Well, Kelly Campbell 21:15I hear that. And I would just build on that to say, how much more positive impact could he make? Yeah, Michael Hingson 21:24that's why I changed it from powerful to influential because, yeah, I think that's more relevant, having a more powerful impact. We'll look at Steve Jobs. And I don't know as much about Steve Jobs. A lot of people were very loyal to him in the company. And he did a lot. And I just keep thinking, if he had lived 10 more years, what would it have been like in the world? Yeah. Kelly Campbell 21:48Yeah. It's a good question. Yeah. Michael Hingson 21:51And it's, it's one of those, well, we're not gonna get that answer. So we'll just have to not worry about it, I guess, or or we can think about it. But how do we all move forward is really the issue. But you know, a question that I love to ask. We've been talking about leadership a little bit. What is a leader? Kelly Campbell 22:10Hmm, that's a great cry. No, it's Michael Hingson 22:13a fun question. I love to get different answers. And you know, there's not necessarily a real right answer, but it's a fair question. Kelly Campbell 22:20Yeah. It is a fair question. I love this question. My favorite definition of a leader, and I'll paraphrase this, it's not mine. It's comes from Brene. Brown, it's really, you know, someone who sees the potential in other people, and has the courage to develop that potential. Yeah. It feels to me like, you know, what we thought about or what we understood as leadership over the last 200 years is not what we actually would like to think of as leadership. Right. It's not an authoritarian, it's not someone who has all the answers and leads us into battle. And you know, all of that. It is someone who is there to create more leaders, not more followers of them. You are not going to get that answer from a lot of people. But that's what I believe. Yeah. Michael Hingson 23:17And I think that the definition is a great one. And would that more people would see it, because bosses are not by any definition, necessarily leaders at all? Not at Kelly Campbell 23:29all. Not at all. They're just wounded children in a way, if you think about it, right. I mean, think about trauma, what its impact is you asked me before, what is its impact on leadership? If we have a traumatic experience, right, we experienced trauma at let's say, nine years old, we are ultimately stunted at nine years old if we don't integrate that experience. So we have a lot of nine year olds, running companies. I was one of them, which is why I can say that, you know, the day they the introduction of the book is this woman had asked me it was consultant that I had hired. And she said, What was the I want you to close your eyes? And what was the first moment that you remember stepping into a leadership role? And the introduction of the book became, you know, or was born out of the answer to that question? And the answer was, I literally thought of the day that my I was nine years old, sitting in the back seat of my family car, a Crown Victoria, I'll never forget it. And my brother, who's about a year younger than me, was sitting next to me and my mother was taking us to the movie theater. But before we went into the movie theater, she turned around and said, Oh, I just want to let your kids know. Your father is not going to be living with us anymore. And this was the moment that I remembered when this woman asked me what was the first moment you you remember stepping into a leadership role? Because I As blown out as I was by this news, and scared and confused and had all these questions and no support, I, in that moment turned to my brother. Right and put my hand on his back. And for me, it was supporting him and comforting him, and sort of letting him know that he was not alone in this. Right. And it's a weird memory to come up for that kind of question. But for a long time prior to me doing any of this healing work and trauma integration work on myself, I was that nine year old kid running that company. So, you know, to me, it's like, do we want more nine year olds running companies? Or do we want centered, fully embodied healing actively healing humans running companies and organizations? Yeah. Michael Hingson 25:55And you, you've evolved from being that nine year old child along the way, which is, of course, a great thing. Yeah. Which is, which is what you needed to do? Yeah. Kelly Campbell 26:07It's taken a lot of work. And that's the thing, this is a lifelong commitment. Right? This isn't a single Ayahuasca retreat, or just therapy for a few years. That's not what this is about. This is a lifelong commitment to, you know, really understanding who you are, what behaviors you would like to change, how you want to show up in the world. How you want to lead in whatever way that means whether that's in your your family system, at work, in your social group, maybe you have a religious affiliation, leadership comes in all different flavors and sizes, right? But it's figuring that out. And then understanding as part of that healing journey in that process. What you are here to contribute in the world, because this isn't about you. You, the more you learn about yourself, the less your ego is online, which is kind of a interesting oxymoron there. But yeah, it's more about what you what is your purpose? What are you here to contribute in the world? Because you understand through the healing journey that this is so much bigger than you so much bigger? Michael Hingson 27:21So following up on that and kind of continuing in since healing is a lifelong commitment. What's in it for leaders? Well, since we always seem to want to do things our way, so what's in it for me? What's in it? For me? Yeah, Kelly Campbell 27:38well, I will answer the question. But my initial reaction as a trauma informed leadership coach is think about, you know, if there's a leader who has that sort of that question, right? They're sort of being provocative. Well, what's in it for me? Why should I do any of this healing stuff? It sounds terrible takes a lifetime. You know, it's it has nothing to do with my legacy? Well, my question to that person would be well think about what your life is like right now. And if we were to fast forward five years from now, and life is exactly the same way you're feeling the level of overwhelm anxiety, you're biting at people that you don't even know, maybe there's like, some anger going on in your body, you tend to micromanage people, your relationships aren't exactly what you would love them to be. If we fast forward five years from now, and life was exactly like that, would you be okay with that? Right. And really, when we're getting real, is this current thing called life working for you? As is? Yeah, that would be my question. But I like to, I like to stoke the fire a little bit. But what's in it for people is some of the things that I alluded to better, closer, deeper, more meaningful relationships, not just that work, not just that home, not just with friends, I'm talking about all of them, because you will show up differently, right. If you own an organization or are in leadership of an organization, a workplace, the bottom line will actually see the impact of this in a positive way. Because the people who you are leading will trust you more, will respect you more will be more loyal. So you'll have less employee attrition, maybe even less client attrition or customer attrition, right? People want to follow and emulate those who have, you know, aligned values. I mean, access to be as a great example of that, right? There's so much in it. And it's not just about the business or just about the personal it's everything. You're also probably going to find that you develop a passion or reignite or rekindle a passion for some of the things that you were really excited about when you were a kid, maybe you love loved nature. Maybe you love to play an instrument, whatever, whatever the thing was, there's more joy and more passion and more fulfillment in your life by doing this work. I don't know, you know, that sounds like no big deal to me, you know, it's just life changing. There's so much available to us. And it's only possible once we do this work, well. Michael Hingson 30:30While I was in college, I did radio and loved it. I was in radio, the campus for six and a half years and had a lot of fun doing it and, and never thought I'd be back doing something is part of my life relating to that. And four years ago, I would never have thought of being the host of a podcast. But in 2021, when I joined excessively, they asked if I would do it, and here we are. And it's really doing very well, a lot of people seem to really like it. And we're having a lot of fun. And for me personally, I get to learn a lot. And I think that's the the most important thing for me is I get to learn a lot. I've, I've changed my mindset on things over the past two and a half years. And as I as I tell people, whenever we do these podcasts, there's only one hard and fast rule. And that is we both have to have fun. Kelly Campbell 31:23Yeah, yeah. And we're doing that. I'm glad that you brought that up. Because this idea of being a lifelong learner and being curious about the world. That's a little throwback to what I was talking about in childhood, right? If you if you look at a two year old, a five year old, a seven year old, a nine year old, they're, you know, everything is, in all everything is one dress, right? There's so much exploration, experimentation, and then we are taught little by little inadvertently, and then sometimes very explicitly, that that is not something that we can continue with, right? We might be able to do it for a few years when we're toddlers. But like, now, you've got to get serious. I there's people who ask, you know, five year old, what do you want to be when you grow up? Right? It's like, I don't have to make that decision. I just want to be a kid right now. So um, yeah, it's just like that, that level of curiosity and being a lifelong learner, being able to change your mindset, as opposed to having a fixed mindset and thinking very narrowly or thinking from a binary perspective. That, to me is one of the greatest gifts of healing as a leader. Michael Hingson 32:35And we really shouldn't be discouraged from being curious. And it happens. So often, I know I've been to museums and other places where I'll reach out and touch something that we're passing, and somebody say, you can't touch that you can't do this, you can't do that. Why not? The reality is, I can appreciate not everyone going to a museum should be allowed to touch art, because too many hands with oil can can have an effect on it. But allowing a blind person who's not going to see it any other way to touch it shouldn't be a problem. And allowing other people to be curious in their own way shouldn't be a problem. But it's all too often something we discourage. And as people grow older, when you get as you point out out of being a toddler, you're starting to be taught not to be curious. I've seen so many examples where I've been somewhere and somebody wants to either pet my dog or ask me a question about being blind, a child and their parents out, don't do that. It's impolite. It's not, you know? I try to well whenever I can. And, and like one of my philosophies, and one of my policies is if a child wants to pet my guide dog, and I hear the child asking the parent is, oh, no, that dog might bite and so on, I will stop, I'll take the harness off, because that's alimos cue that he's no longer working. And I will say, go ahead, you can pet the dog, he's very friendly. I just hope you're not holding an ice cream cone. But I will always do that. And with adults. Mostly the same thing. If an adult wants to pet the dog. If I have time, I will again stop and take the harness off. And I'll say I'm taking the harness off, because now he knows he's not working. And there have been a few times that someone has wanted to pet the dog. And I said, Look, I've got to go, I don't have the time right now I would love to but I just don't have the time. And they pet the dog anyway. And of course I know that because the dog turns and looks and wants to visit more because dogs love that. And I have to give the dog a correction because they shouldn't be responding to the person and the correction is just a slight tug on the leash. And I remember one case where a woman did it and she said, Oh, don't don't punish the dog. I was the one that was petting the dog and I said no, you don't understand. The dog shouldn't have reacted. I'm gonna deal with the dog and then I'll deal with you because I had already said no, I don't have time. Kelly Campbell 34:57Children. Yeah, I was just gonna say she wasn't respecting your boundaries, or the dog's boundaries in that case, right, Michael Hingson 35:02right. With children, Allah, we stopped because I don't want them to be afraid. And I want to give them the opportunity to ask questions. And I realize, well, I have a teaching mentality anyway. And I believe that my job is whenever I can to teach, and I love to do it with adults, too. It's so much fun. Kelly Campbell 35:23Yeah, I want to go back to the boundary thing, oh, man, because it just sparked something in me, you know, part of doing healing work is not taking things so personally, so that when someone does, you know, enact a boundary, you respect it, and you respect it genuinely. Right. And you also on the flip side of that, have the ability to not sort of fall into that people pleasing tendency, and you can more easily, you know, state what your boundaries are, in a very, you know, loving and respectful way. Yeah. And so I think that respecting people's boundaries, and then being able to talk about your own and express your own, that's another benefit. You know, as we're talking, it's like, we could talk, we can have a whole podcast just talking about benefits of healing. Yeah. Michael Hingson 36:15Maybe we should, maybe we should. But yeah, there's, there's a lot to be said, for boundaries. And I, I fear in our society, we're losing the concept of boundaries, that there are so many things that are happening, we talk about politicians and others, and so on, who seem not to have any respect for boundaries, and we're losing the art of conversation, people won't talk or allow themselves to be involved in talking about them and being involved in such discussions. Kelly Campbell 36:46I mean, that's a shame. You know, boundaries are really important, or kind. I love boundaries, boundaries also help with conversations about consent, right? I mean, all of these things are intertwined. And so the more that we heal, the more that we understand what we're comfortable with what we will accept, from the people in our lives, the things that we will not accept, and then we understand we grow and we learn new language around that. It's beautiful. It's actually well, Michael Hingson 37:17now my cat doesn't have any respect for boundaries. Kelly Campbell 37:21Well, we can't help the cats. Michael Hingson 37:24But my dog does. He really clearly respects boundaries. And I would hope that I understand his. But we have a great synergistic relationship, in reality I do with the cat as well. But she's, she's a fun kitty. She's 14 and a rescue cat, and a lot of fun. So it works well. But boundaries are something that we're just losing the art of understanding, you know, people say we shouldn't talk about politics and all that. And I keep thinking, why not? Why don't we have enough boundaries and enough respect for others that we, we can't discuss things where maybe we disagree, there's nothing wrong with disagreement, we should be able to discuss it, good teams learn to disagree. And and the point of have a good relationship in a team is that team members can very well disagree, and they know that their views will be respected by the other members of the team, so they can do it. But in general, we just don't see that. But that Kelly Campbell 38:30comes from the top. Right. So if you know there's discourse, that means that there's trust, trust is not at the top, meaning we're that we are looking up at the leader. If that trust is not there, then we are not going to feel on the team, the ability to trust one another. So it's very much like a modeling, right? And so leaders who are vulnerable leaders who say, I don't have all the answers, I actually need your help to run this organization or finish this project, or whatever it is. And then you mentioned team in the case of maybe personal relationships, you know, a team could be just two partners, a team could be a family, right? And so yeah, it all of this transcends and is so interconnected between all of these types of relationships. But yeah, I think, trust and discourse, right and not avoiding conflict, you can't have any of those things which are beautiful things, you know, to understand someone else's perspective and give them the space to express their perspective and be able to say, You know what, I can hear what you're saying, and I still have my beliefs. We made like the purpose of this discourse is not to necessarily change each other's mind, or to be on the same page. But it's just to understand a little bit more about like, underlying Lee, what are your values? What are my values? And yeah, I think that, you know, part of this is we get so rigid and so tight when we haven't addressed what's underneath all of this, you know? So yeah, I love being able to have conversations about politics or, you know, with the people. And this is where you have to be discerning, it's with the people who can hold that both and thinking, you know, and aren't such on a binary track. So you have to be discerning about that. Because you you want to keep, you know, put yourself in situations where you also feel a sense of safety. Michael Hingson 40:42Yeah. But the other part about team relationships, say within a corporation is the ultimate goal of discussions and controversy. Well, controversy or disagreement, is to eventually come to some sort of consensus and doesn't necessarily mean that one or either of us like, the decision, but we come to a decision that we can live with, until or unless it doesn't work. And then if it doesn't work, then we say, okay, it's nobody's fault. We, we decided we all did it together. Let's figure out where we go from here. And one of my favorite books is The Five Dysfunctions of a Team by Patrick Lencioni. I don't know if you've never read that. It's a great book. I have not, but I Well, it's it's a fairly short book. But it's a great book that talks about teamwork. And the basic premise is, as you point out trust, one of the things that I love to tell people is that I have learned a lot more about teamwork and team development, and trust, from working with eight guide dogs that I've ever learned from all the experts in the world on it, because when I'm working with a guide, dog, and I make no mistake, it is an absolute teaming relationship. When I work with a guide dog, we are truly developing a team, we each have a job to do. And part of my job is supposed to be the team leader, but also as the team leader. And this is something I was going to bring up a leader no needs to know when to give up leadership to somebody else be on the team, because they may be able to handle a particular situation well, and better than you. And you sort of alluded to that. And that's true with a guide dog. If we're walking down a sidewalk and we get to a curb, the dog stops, because the job of the guide dog is to make sure that I walk safely not to know where to go and how to get there. That's my job. And the dog trusts need to know that. And if I convey that, I don't know that the dogs gonna get worried. So it makes me feel more obligated in advance whenever we're going to be somewhere to learn how to go where I need to go, now I can still get lost. But I know that when that happens, and I get confused, I can't panic, because that's going to make the dog uncomfortable. But as I was going to say, when we get to a street corner and the dog stops, and then I say forward, and we start across the street, and suddenly the dog jerks back, I'm not going to question what that dog is doing. I'm gonna follow that dog. Partly it's a survival thing. But also partly, that's the dog's job. And what it usually is as a hybrid vehicles coming that I didn't hear. So the dog will still go back. And I'm going to follow that dog and I'm going to tell that dog what a great job it was doing. Likewise, going down the stairs at the World Trade Center was the same sort of thing. I needed to keep the dog confident and focused. So it was ongoing constant praise, which was also sending a message to the dog. I'm okay. And it didn't matter what I was thinking inside. That's what I needed to do to help my teammate be able to function well. Yeah. Yeah. Kelly Campbell 44:02Thank you for for a sharing that story. I know you've shared it many times, but I just just hearing it and kind of in this, this little conversation. I appreciate it. And it it really speaks to that relationship, that trust and also the fact that as a leader, you will not always have the right answer or know what to do next. Right, right. The there's something since we're on the the theme of dogs and cats and there is something that I put into the prologue of the book related to geese, Canada geese. And the reason why I did that was because my grandmother loved loved the more than anyone I've ever known. Loved Canada geese specifically because they fly in a V formation. And the reason why I the reason behind the flying in a V formation. So many people don't know this. But when they fly into V formation, the leader quote unquote, who is at the top of the V. V, right? That is the most rested goose, right. So the one who has essentially moved all the way to the back, has rested for the longest period of time then flies past every one of the other ones and takes the leadership position. And they do that because they are the most rested. And what I love about that is if we started thinking about trusting the the leader who is the most rested, right, that the relationship between trust and rest. If that was part of the way that we think about leadership, boy, would that be a different? Yeah, we would live in, right. So it speaks to like regenerative leadership and you know, trusting someone who is maybe in a better physical scenario than you, right? Yeah. Yeah, it's, it's fascinating how we've gotten so off course, with what we think of as a leader or a good leader, versus what you know, the definition should really be. I Michael Hingson 46:23wonder how it is that the geese know who the most rested is? Kelly Campbell 46:28Well, just based on where they are in the formation, so the one at the very back has fallen back from the leadership position with that they were in at one point, and they also in time, well, every time a new one comes to the front, they basically take the next position back, right. And so there, by the time they get to the very tail of the V formation, that's the one who has benefited from that aerodynamic, you know, situation, Michael Hingson 46:56and they track it. So they they know. Yeah, and that's, that's the point. So did your grandmother ever get to visit with any of the Canadian geese? Um, Kelly Campbell 47:05my grandmother, she loves Canada geese so much that she actually had had requested that we had a flock of geese in a V formation engraved on her headstone. I mean, that's what she loved them. And for me, it was more about this idea of innate leadership that she really I sort of digested from her or I don't know, maybe it's through osmosis. Because she was, she was like the matriarch of our family. And was not the one that was the most vocal was not the one that didn't ask for help. She led in in a way that really was real and human and vulnerable and just beautiful. She was She She created a lot of trust within our family. For each of the grandchildren, you know, I kind of joke around that she made each and every one of us feel like we were her favorite. So yeah, I just I have such fond memories of that. So that's why I started the book with that. When Michael Hingson 48:12we moved to Northern California back in 2002. There was a flock of ducks. Well, before we moved in our there was a contractor who did work to make the house wheelchair accessible for my wife. And he warned us that there were ducks. And he said, he made the mistake of giving a piece of a donut to one of them. And he said every day, they would come up to the door. And if I didn't have doughnuts for them, they'd go for the throat. So we we got to visit with the ducks. And then one day I was out feeding the ducks. And we brought we bought what I call duck bread. We bought white bread from Costco, and they loved it. And while I was out feeding the ducks one day sitting on our back patio, and this bigger beak came into the mix. And I called Karen, who came on and said it's a goose and it was an American greylag goose who had been living in that community for a while. I don't know whether he thought he was a duck. But he and the ducks got along and he loved to come up and get fed as well. And like to get petted. It was a you know, I knew that goose generally were a little bit touchy about that, but not silver. He loved it. Kelly Campbell 49:22That's great. I love it. I love it. You have so much nature in your life was a lot of fun. Michael Hingson 49:26And eventually he died. He was like 18 when we knew him and oh, wow, we I don't know how much longer he lived but one day he wasn't there anymore. So what are some? What are some self care strategies that leaders can use when you're trying to deal with this long term commitment to heal? Kelly Campbell 49:46Well, I think you're illustrating one really nicely in in some of these stories, which is connection to nature, right getting out in nature. If you have pets, you know, sometimes self care Looks like going for a walk with your dog or petting your cat. Even taking care of your plants, right? I know these things sound really simple, but I think a lot of people think about self care as only, you know, maybe going to the gym or getting a massage or some people think about self care as having a glass of wine after work. Those things, in many ways, sort of, you can think about them like superficial self care. And that's sort of a bifurcation that I make in the book. You know, when we're talking about really integrating trauma, we're doing deep, pretty profound work, where there can be emotions that come up, anger, sadness, grief, rage, you know, things that we didn't maybe express when we were younger, there's a lot to deal with. So real self care strategies is, you know, maybe things like enacting boundaries, if you've got friends that want to go out and you feel like you just don't have the capacity for that. Maybe it's saying, you know, thank you for the invitation, I'm actually going to take care of myself, tonight, I'm going to prioritize my mental well being or my physical well being. So it's resting for sure, it's probably at the top of my list is getting more rest, because so many of us do not get rest. Sure, we might sleep at night for a few hours or even 678 hours. But that sleep, rest is a little different. So rest could be like taking naps or things like that. prioritizing our ourselves in terms of those boundaries. I mean, there are so many different things that you can employ, but they have to feel good for you. Right? And, you know, again, really thinking about this, this distinction between what is superficial, right? And what is actual self care, right? taking time for yourself, maybe if you're, I don't know, doing some project, maybe building in some rest periods, so that you're not just grinding through it. We're in such a hustle culture. And we normalize that. And we think that it's a positive thing, because we're getting rewarded from the by that we get rewarded with promotions and all these other things when we overwork. Well, we get overstimulated. We get Yeah, we get bonuses and promotions for it. But at what cost? Right, taking care of ourselves is more about Yeah, just having an awareness of what do I actually need? What capacity? Do I actually have to get this thing done? Or to say yes to this? Is this something that I should be saying no to. So it's more of that in that realm. And of course, there are, you know, probably dozens of other things that we can kind of put into the real self care bucket. But I think it's in that realm, and I would put rest at the top, where Michael Hingson 53:06should leaders, I think we've touched on this, but actually begin if they want to start down this path of healing. Kelly Campbell 53:16There are a lot of places to start. I mean, again, if you've never spoken with anyone before, I think therapy is a wonderful place to start, it may not be the thing that will get you to trauma integration, but it's a great mental health maintenance protocol. And it's a great entryway into healing. If you want to learn a little bit more about where you're sitting on the spectrum of, you know, being a conscious leader, like high conscious leader, low conscious leader, evolving leader, and what all of that kind of means, I do have a leadership quiz. So it's essentially answering 20 Different if statements and seeing how true those feel to you, though that quiz is on my website, it's free. If you want to get the full report, quote, unquote, or the full assessment, you would just have to put your email address in at the end. But that's at k l campbell.com. Forward slash leadership. Michael Hingson 54:17Cool. Well, we'll have to go go check out the quiz non curious, which is fair. Well, you know, you talked earlier about people pleasing. And I, I realized that can be a real problem and a real challenge. So I thought I'd just do this because I don't want to make anyone unhappy. And that, again, that's not dealing with boundaries very well, including your own. So what are some things that people can do to stop just being a people pleasing leader or a people pleaser? Kelly Campbell 54:48Well, it's not going to come by just stopping it right? Like it's not going to come from a mental shift of I, you know, I'm going to stop doing this. It really you have to understand and start doing to work on the underlying causes and conditions as to why you are in that people pleasing mode, and most of the time that comes from us not feeling like we're worthy, or we're valuable unless we say yes to these things, or, you know, God, God forbid, if we, you know, create conflict. Or if we say no, or we push back on something, this person may not like me, I may not get this promotion, right. So there's all these stories that get created. So I think it's about really going under the hood and figuring out where does that come from, you know, sort of unpacking that for yourself, and then deciding, okay, I want to have more control over my schedule, I want to have more control over my life, I want to do pursue the things that I want to pursue. And in order to do that, I've got to say no, to certain things. So yeah, it's it's really about extending a little bit of self exploration, determining what you want to change in those realms, and then doing some of the work on yourself. And it's through that work, that you get to the point where you're like, you know, what, I am worthy, and valuable. And all of that, simply for who I am, I don't need to prove that by saying yes to all of these things by taking on all of this responsibility that I actually don't have capacity for. So it's a much longer answer than you're looking for. But that's the reality of it. It's not just oh, I'm not going to people, please anymore. So you know, because the reality is, you could give people tools and tactics all day long. But if you're not addressing, or they're not addressing the underlying causes, it's just not going to be effective. Actually, Michael Hingson 56:45more was like the answer I was looking for. Because I know it's not a simple thing to do. There. But you know, at work, there are a lot of people who keep saying, You're not doing enough, you didn't do this, you got to do that. How do you push back on that if you're at work or or in any part of your life, to say, wait a minute, I'm really doing the best that I can and get people to accept that? Well, Kelly Campbell 57:10this is about boundaries, right? is at the end of the day, you cannot control what other people think about you, or how they talk about you or what their perception is, you have to be really comfortable with your own decisions. Yeah, and setting those boundaries from a place I as I said before, of like compassion and kindness and just you know, being loving, but you're, what you're doing is you're being loving to yourself, at the same time that you're actually being loving to them, they may not interpret it that way, they may not receive it that way. But the more you take care of you, the more you can actually give in other realms. So how do you do it and you know, if people are pushing back, you know, there are lots of ways to be able to get them to see, you know, this is what I've done. This is what I'm able to do, right? So for will give a concrete example, you're at work your boss asks you to take on this project that you have absolutely no capacity for. So you could say something like, I'm happy to help with that project, I have this other project that you've given me that I'm fully dedicated to which one takes priority, because I can't do both. So which one would you like me to work on starting today? And potentially push off? You know, so we're gonna have to talk about the timeframe in which those things are completed. Right. So it's more of a conversation. It's more of a collaborative, as opposed to just saying yes, and then not letting anyone know that you're working until one o'clock in the morning, not getting enough sleep, it's impacting your health, etc, etc. You know where this goes? Yeah, I would say the majority of people function like that. And I would say that function is probably not what they're doing. Michael Hingson 59:00Yeah. And they're totally missing the opportunity to be better performers. And if the people they're working with won't develop some respect for that, then they're contributing to a lack of productivity. Got it? Yeah. I remember one of my first jobs was not in sales. But I was called into the office of the VP of Marketing one day and said, We're laying you off. And I said, why? And he said, Well, you've done a great job of things that you were doing, but we've hired too many non revenue producing people. And we have to change that. So we're laying you off. And then he paused, he said, unless you're willing to go into sales. And we don't want you to sell the product that you were working with, which was mainly a reading machine for blind people, but rather the commercial version of it. And my immediate response was, I don't know anything about sales. I've never sold professionally and his response was, we'll make sure you get all the tools you need. We're going to send you to a Dale Carnegie sales course and sell One. And as he talked, I realized, they're asking me to do a really significant thing. And he's giving me an opportunity to stay. Why would I refuse. And I've been in sales ever since, of course, what I realized later is, we're every one of us is always in sales one way or another, but it, I can, I can trace being in the world trade center back to that choice actually being in sales a long time ago. But that, you know, and I think a lot of us if we really think about it, can trace where we are back to choices that we've made. And that's a valuable lesson to give us an opportunity to learn from. Kelly Campbell 1:00:37Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And seeing it for that, you know, seeing it as those those choice points and those opportunities that we could have taken one path, and we took a different path. And just knowing that that was probably what we were meant to do. Michael Hingson 1:00:53So tell us about the book is not it's not that we haven't been talking about it. But tell us about the book, Kelly Campbell 1:00:57I've been talking about it a little bit here and there. So the book is really a wake up call. We as a society, and as leaders can't keep going the way that we're going. And so, you know, between the mental health stigma, and the idea that we cannot talk about our humanity and our trauma, at work, and I don't mean trauma, dumping, I just mean, who we are, and how our past has impacted our present. Men, many people really wouldn't touch this stuff and won't touch the stuff and haven't touch the stuff with a 10 foot pole. Because we're so afraid to face the truth of who we are, or we're afraid of what we might find out. And I think that we're at a choice point, we're at a critical impasse here, where if we don't start waking up, and we don't start taking responsibility for ourselves, our reactions, our behaviors, all of that. remedying our disconnection from this planet that we live on, right, understanding what we're here to contribute in the world. And not thinking that life is some individualistic journey, right? Because that's not what it's about. Really, this book is a wake up call for leaders to say, You know what, there has to be a better way to be in the world. And then I think I have to go inward. And here are the ways in which I'm going to do that. I do share a number of very personable personal vulnerable stories, just to kind of model that vulnerability, and give you a sense of like, what that trauma looked like for me as a leader. Alright, how the impact of trauma impacted me as a leader. And all of it is framed around this idea of, if we are going to move forward in a direction where everyone you know, feels seen, heard, valued, respected, appreciated, et cetera, safe. We want to live in a world that is inclusive and equitable and revered nature for what it is. Then I frame this as the four fundamentals of what we call high conscious leadership. And so trauma integration is the first fundamental. And then we have embodying vulnerability, and then leading with compassion. And the fourth one is lighting the way which is really again, much something I mentioned earlier, leading the way is about creating more leaders, not more followers. So that's a little bit of an encapsulation of what healed to lead us. So it's healed to lead, revolutionising leadership through trauma healing. Michael Hingson 1:03:46And when will the book be out? Kelly Campbell 1:03:48The book will be out April 16th. Cool. Michael Hingson 1:03:52Well, anxious to to get it. Do you know if there'll be an audio version? I Kelly Campbell 1:03:59don't know yet. I have a sneaking suspicion that there will be but not initially. So initially, it'll just be digital. And so Kindle and hardcover, eventually, I'm assuming that there'll be an audible version. And probably a paperback at some point in the future. Michael Hingson 1:04:17Yeah, usually, the hardcover eventually goes to paperback, if it sounds at all, and it will, then that usually does happen. Well, even the Kindle version will have to try to hunt it down. I'm working on a new book that will be out later this year. It's called Live like a guide dog. And it's all about learning to control fear. And what it's not is saying don't be afraid it is saying instead, you can learn that fear doesn't need to overwhelm you. So that's gonna be out in August. That'll Kelly Campbell 1:04:41be I love that. Congratulations on that. And I Michael Hingson 1:04:45just learned last week that it and I kind of insisted on it. Needless to say, since there are a bunch of us who are blind who are going to want to read it, there will be an audio version of it. So we push that with the publishers. That's cool. Kelly Campbell 1:04:57That makes a lot of sense. Yeah. That's wonderful. Well, I'm very excited about that for you. Michael Hingson 1:05:02Well, I want to thank you for for being here. If people want to reach out to you, how do they do that? Kelly Campbell 1:05:08My website is probably the best way you can find the book. You can find more about what I do. It's just k l campbell.com. Cool. Michael Hingson 1:05:16And they can go off and take the leadership quiz as well as your quizzes right there. Yeah. Well, thanks for being here. And I want to thank all of you wherever you are for listening today, please give us a five star rating wherever you're listening. Love those five star ratings, but we also love just getting your opinions and your thoughts. So please, contribute. If you know anyone who want to be a guest on unstoppable mindset. Kelly, you as well please let us know. And we are always looking for more people to have on to give us insights. Me being prejudiced, I get to learn a lot that way. So we love to do it. If you'd like to reach out to me feel free you can reach me at Michael M i c h a e l h i at accessibe A c c e s s i b e.com. Or go to our podcast page www dot Michael hingson.com/podcast. And Michael hingson has m i c h a el h i n g s o n. So go there love to get your thoughts and again, your ratings. We appreciate it. If you're looking for a speaker, I am always available, please reach out to me. Another way you can even do that is to email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. And I would love to chat with you about that. So once more Kelly we really appreciate you taking the time to be here and and now it's getting to be lunchtime for you. Kelly Campbell 1:06:33Thank you so much Michael. The pleasure was all mine. Michael Hingson 1:06:40You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com . AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

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Transcription Notes“Upili program”? Yes and it isn’t even a misspelling. Our guest, Carla Birnberg will tell us all about Upili, where it comes from and what it is. Carla started life in Pittsburg, but nearly thirty years ago she ended up in Austin, TX. Prior to Austin she worked in North Carolina where she owned her own personal trainer business. She sold that company when she moved to Austin which was due to marriage.

Carla has always been quite the storyteller. Her Bachelors degree was in English Literature, but her mom convinced her to go to graduate school where she earned a Master’s degree in Educational Counseling. After her move to Austin she became a successful blogger and internet writer for a number of major brands.

Four years ago she, as she would say, pivoted to working with the Next Step Foundation to help persons with disabilities in East Africa.

We have quite the informative and interesting conversations about disabilities and how they are viewed in Kenya as opposed to the United States. Carla makes a strong case for why in reality the treatment of persons with disabilities between the two countries is not too different although in Kenya possibly the treatment of people with disabilities there is more visibly negative. Carla does say overall the views of us are pretty similar.

While you may hear some things discussed that have come up in other episodes of Unstoppable Mindset I think you will discover in Carla a person with a wealth of knowledge. Among other things, she describes how in Kenya where the Upili program is used, counselors with disabilities are brough into schools and organizations so the people there see good models to enrich and inspire them. This was a fun and wonderful conversation. I hope you enjoy it.

About the Guest:

Carla has dedicated her professional journey to cultivating connections, whether between individuals, places, or concepts. As a passionate advocate for amplifying the voices of marginalized communities, she most recently wove together her gift for ethical storytelling, her passion for uplifting others, and her academic experience/Master's degree in Educational Counseling to create the Upili program.Upili, Kiswahili for secondary as in secondary schools, engages Counselors with Disabilities to provide group therapy for Students with Disabilities in Kenyan “special schools.” (In Kenya, Students with Disabilities are educated at “special schools” according to their disability, e.g., schools for the blind, schools for the deaf, etc.)Youth with Disabilities are 10 times more likely to suffer from depression, especially in East Africa where stigmatization, marginalization and discrimination are still prevalent. The lack of early intervention of essential psychosocial support creates additional barriers that keep Persons with Disabilities from being able to obtain and maintain meaningful employment.Next Step Foundation’s Upili Program addresses this pervasive mental health challenge by providing support for secondary school Students with Disabilities, their families, and communities. By meeting the psychosocial needs of students, training teachers, staff and peers to serve as “psychological first responders,” and offering support to parents and caregivers the Upili Program instills self-confidence, improves academic performance and provides the tools to successfully navigate future discrimination so that Youth with Disabilities can achieve economic independence.

In her recent role as the Chief Culture and Inclusion Officer at Stepwise Inc., Carla played a pivotal role in advancing impact sourcing initiatives. Stepwise, a frontrunner in the impact sourcing movement and the first B Corp certified company in East Africa, benefited from Carla's leadership in leveraging AI technology to empower marginalized groups, particularly individuals with disabilities and young women, enabling their full participation in the digital economy.

Driven by a commitment to fostering a positive organizational culture, Carla has created initiatives aimed at enhancing employee retention amidst Stepwise's rapid growth. Her innovative approaches, including "stay interviews," upskilling opportunities, and mentorship programs, have infused the company's core values into daily operations, cultivating a workplace where employees are not only motivated to come to work but also eager to remain with the organization, even across vast distances.

As a collaborative leader Carla has developed and implemented comprehensive training and support programs for cultural integration within organizations undergoing expansion through acquisitions. Her approach, which includes individual and group coaching as well as fostering cultural sensitivity, has proven instrumental in navigating organizational transitions.

Carla's earlier career in marketing showcased her aptitude for connecting communities, influencers, and brands. With a track record of success in developing innovative branding and marketing campaigns, she has left an indelible mark on the industry. Her pioneering use of omni-channel media, blending lifestyle with product placement alongside esteemed personalities and leading brands such as Venus Williams, FILA, and Walt Disney World, made her a trailblazer in the realm we now simply refer to as 'influencers.

Ways to connect with Carla:

Next Step Foundation website https://nextstepfdn.org/Upili Program website https://www.upili.org/Upil Instagram https://www.instagram.com/upili_program?Upili Twitterhttps://twitter.com/upiliprogram?Carla Birnberg Substack https://carlabirnberg.substack.com/

About the Host:Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.

Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children’s Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association’s 2012 Hero Dog Awards.

https://michaelhingson.comhttps://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/https://twitter.com/mhingsonhttps://www.youtube.com/user/mhingsonhttps://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/

accessiBe Linkshttps://accessibe.com/https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBehttps://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/

https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/

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Transcription Notes:

Michael Hingson 00:00Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us. Michael Hingson 01:20Well, hello, and welcome to another episode of unstoppable mindset. Our guest today, my partner in conversation that is Carla Birnberg. Carla has a really interesting story to tell. She lives in Austin. And I don't know where else in the US she's live. But we'll find out because we'll drill down and, and get it out of her. But she spends her waking hours thinking of and assisting people, especially children with disabilities in Kenya, and helping them to become more accepted, which makes a lot of sense. And of course, needless to say, that's near and dear to my heart. And we will we will get to all that as we go through our discussions. But for now, Carla, I want to welcome you into unstoppable mindset. And thank you very much for being here. Thank Carla Birnberg 02:14you so much for having me. I know it took a beat for us to get the date together. And I'm so glad to be here. Michael Hingson 02:21Well, we made it happen, which is really good. There you go. Tell us about the early Carla growing up and stuff like that. Carla Birnberg 02:29The early Carla Michael Hingson 02:31Yeah, gotta hear about the early Carla. Carla Birnberg 02:34I laughed because I've been thinking a lot. You know, that question that career counselors and coaches ask you What did you dream of being when you were little? And I don't know. This will date me that book Harriet the Spy. You're a man you might not be familiar with more of The Girl type read. But Harriet walked around her neighborhood pretending she was a spy with a notebook writing everything down. And I kind of think that my current career as chief storyteller, I've achieved it. And there were some deviations along the way. But my whole life that's really been it, listening to stories and amplifying what other people are doing. Michael Hingson 03:15Carla the spy no doubt about it. Carla Birnberg 03:17I know maybe they can make it into a movie. Michael Hingson 03:20Well, why not? Now who played Harriet? I'm trying to remember was it? 03:27I can't remember her. Donal, I think she was. I think it was Rosie O'Donnell. Carla Birnberg 03:32I think you're right. I'd forgotten. I don't know where Michael Hingson 03:34she was Harriet, or she was the mother but she was in there with the mom Carla Birnberg 03:38she was. And that was I mean, I can really remember walking down my street. It's a kid with that notebook and the pencil. And I hadn't thought until right now. So thank you about how far I've come and how not far. Michael Hingson 03:54So now no pencils, keyboards. I Carla Birnberg 03:57know keyboards, voice notes and our phone all of it. Michael Hingson 04:01So you, you absorb stories and all that and tell me a little bit more about you and growing up and all that. Carla Birnberg 04:10I was pretty theatrical. I did a lot of television work when I was younger. And I thought for about three minutes that I wanted to be on air talent and I interned at our CBS affiliate and then I quickly realized that wasn't my gift. Again, it goes back to I didn't want to be on the screen like you. I wanted to be more behind the scenes writing the stories ended up in college for English English literature, small liberal arts school in Ohio where there was not much else to do but read. And I kind of stayed on this books and storytelling and marketing path my whole life. Michael Hingson 04:51Now, where are you from? Originally? Carla Birnberg 04:55Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. Shout out to the Steelers. Yes, I'm a Pittsburgh girl at heart, even though I've not lived there and maybe 30 years. Michael Hingson 05:04Oh, that's okay. There are people in New York who say the Dodgers will someday move back to Brooklyn and stinky white. Sure that's going to happen. Of course now with Shohei Otani, I don't think they can afford to move back to Brooklyn. So that's another story. But yeah, but you never know. It isn't gonna happen. They're gonna stay out here. But anyway, that's cool. So you, you, you love to be creative. I interviewed. Well, I keep saying that I shouldn't. I had a conversation with a gentleman yesterday. And his name is Wolf born, he changed his name to wolf born, his middle name was born. In honor of his father, Max Born who was a very famous physicist. He had the name of wolf. He was a nickname, his original name was Randall, Born ready for this? Newton John. He's, he's in Australia. So who do you think so? Who do you think his aunt was? Carla Birnberg 06:11Olivia? This thing now, I loved Olivia Newton John's talk Michael Hingson 06:17about a guy who comes from a really creative family. And he, he's, he's, he calls himself a corporate shaman, because he really wants to help organizations and people, people especially move closer to nature and understand that nature has a lot to it can do to guide us and teach us and, and so he really is heavily involved in that. But that Carla Birnberg 06:43is fascinating. And I'm, I'm with him in terms of, I'm not myself, this is why I don't move back to Pennsylvania. Because of the cold. I need to be immersed in nature every day, preferably barefoot in the grass. It helps me ground myself, so I can show up for other people. He Michael Hingson 07:02would say, though, that there is time to deal with cold as well, because we we race around so much that we're we way too hot. And so the result is that we don't really deal with nature. We don't tune into nature, which goes in cycles. And we ought to do more of that. Carla Birnberg 07:20Oh, I'm such a believer. And I just kind of emerged from wintering with Michael, I thought I invented but clearly I did not. When we fall back to we spring forward, I really tried to get still and plan for what's coming next both at work and personally. Michael Hingson 07:41Yeah, well, I, I learned a long time ago that I'm not going to worry about spring ahead and falling back. Frankly, what I do is go to bed an hour earlier when it is spring. And that way, I come right out adjusted to the time anyway. And as far as falling back, I won't stay up an hour later. I like to get the extra hour asleep. So I'm good. And Carla Birnberg 08:11you know, that is I think the Kenyan my team. That's the biggest that's the most challenging time of year when we fall back. I'm further so when I'm it's 8am. For me, they're done. It's 5pm for them. I like when we spring forward, because I get that extra hour where they're in the office, they have to adjust a lot to my USA schedule. Michael Hingson 08:34Yeah, well, I do a lot of work, of course, with excessive B. And the thing about excessive B is that they just switched yesterday night, I guess to daylight saving time. Oh. So they've so it's been a challenge because some of the scheduling hasn't always been coordinated very well. Microsoft hasn't really done some of the things that it was supposed to do. Carla Birnberg 09:09So I can guess that night before the Sunday before the first Monday after we sprung forward. I was like Carla, you've been doing this for years, but let's focus. Okay, so 8am Do we need to switch this out? Look didn't change the meeting time. Like you said, it's on us. 09:24Yeah, literally cope. We did. Carla Birnberg 09:28That's because we're resilient and we're creative. Michael Hingson 09:30So what did you do once you left college? Well, I'm before you said your degree in college was what in right in writing English English literature. Yeah, Carla Birnberg 09:42you know, it seemed like a really good idea. I have a daughter who's 18 and my liberal arts degree has been great for cocktail conversation, and it's a lovely degree, but I wasn't really ready to do much after with it after graduation. So I as one does work In an outdoor store, I loved climbing and hiking, and I worked there probably for a year. And my mother, God bless her Jewish intellectual parents came into the store one day and said, Guess what? You're going to graduate school. Now, I'm not paying for this, but it's time to get doing something else. And so I got my master's degree in Educational Counseling. Okay, I use it every day. And I don't use it at all. It's one of those, it's been very helpful, but I've not used it in a traditional fashion. Michael Hingson 10:31Fair. I understand and empathize a lot, I got my bachelor's and master's degrees in physics. But wow, circumstances, ended up having me go in different directions. But I would never regret the times. And all that I learned in physics, the details, the kinds of things I learned some of the more basic life lessons like pay attention to details that are so important. And there's some examples of that in terms of why it's important in physics. But for me, I took it more to heart in a general way. And really work to pay attention to details, more of us ought to do that and observe what goes on around us, and learn to recognize what is working, what's not working, do really pay attention to the details to find out if the details are going the way we expect. And if they're not, why not? Because it might very well be that they have something to teach us. That's Carla Birnberg 11:30a really, phenomenally interesting takeaway from a physics degree I wouldn't have thought of. And you're right. That's a skill we all need. Because we need to know when to pivot when to change what we're doing. And if we're going too fast, we don't even notice. Right? Michael Hingson 11:47So you've got a master's in education. Yeah. Carla Birnberg 11:53And then what, and then I moved for a job, I was very excited, I packed up my car, I'm going to Chapel Hill, North Carolina for a job, I get to Chapel Hill, and welcome, but there's no job anymore. So again, if it and this kind of took me, I don't really believe we get off our path because everything comes together. But I ended up becoming and if you knew me in my childhood, this shocks, everybody actually straight up through college, a personal trainer, and not athletic at all. And I ended up opening a personal training studio, but with that using them it was master's in education with an emphasis on counseling. So those counseling skills, yes, I did need the fitness knowledge. But the counseling skills really helped make me successful as a personal trainer. And then I sold my training studio moved to Austin, and became a big online, personal brand all sort of by accident. Michael Hingson 12:56Why personal trainer, what what got you to do that? Carla Birnberg 13:02Back then I probably would have said because I love paying my rent and my bills. And it seemed like something I could do to make some money. But I know myself and what comes easy to me, I'm not a good teacher of I could never have taught the clarinet came very easy to me. I could have taught math because I struggled with it. I'm not naturally someone who's very adept with fitness, terrible hand eye coordination. And yet I knew when I started lifting weights briefly in college, for women, leaving much more than men, it's where we can find our voice. It's where we can discover our power. And so after that happened for me, I kind of wanted to proselytize or evangelize and share that with girls, mostly University of Chapel Hill, undergrads and women in the area. I believe in it's so much teaching us to be strong and take up space and speak up. It's really where I found my voice. Michael Hingson 14:05Why didn't you stay with it, though? You sold it eventually and move to Austin, Carla Birnberg 14:09sold it and move to Austin and no more brick and mortar for me ever. I mean, I Carla Birnberg 14:18it was great. But Carla Birnberg 14:22I knew there was a way and I figured it out sort of with another with group of. We call ourselves the OG bloggers across the United States. How could we give away what we were passionate about what our knowledge was in what our skill set was really for free on the internet. So I was working at the Austin American Statesman by day writing features working in their education department, and a blogger by night until the blogging by night got so big that I left the statesman and made that full time. Michael Hingson 14:55Ended up getting out of the newspaper business. none Carla Birnberg 14:58too soon to my chagrin. I mean, I'm sad that it's kind of dying off. Yeah. Michael Hingson 15:03Yeah, I think it'll be a sad day if we lose newspapers. I Carla Birnberg 15:10absolutely agree. I mean, that's some of my best memories of being a family growing up this Sunday, New York Times the local Pittsburgh paper. Michael Hingson 15:21So, you, you really got into blogging and what were you blogging about? Or what were you doing? Carla Birnberg 15:29It's that master's degree. It was personal development and fitness, but not prescriptive, not go to the gym and lift this weight and do it this way. It was more, what's your language of encouragement? A few iterations back? What's your why? How do we get to the gym? How do we commit to fitness? How do we figure out why this is even important to us so we can achieve the goals that we've set for ourselves. Okay, Michael Hingson 15:55well, going back even a little bit further and deeper. Why Austin? Ah, this Carla Birnberg 16:01marriage came down. Yes. And you know, it is I love the city. It's changed a lot. But I'm still not one of those. And there are many of them now. Just old Austin was better. And as we've grown, it's changed. And I love it just as much. I've been here 24 years. Long time. Hmm. Yes. And I have no plans to leave yet until unless they priced me out, then maybe? Michael Hingson 16:26Well, so. So you got into blogging and all that. And that's a good thing. But as you pointed out, needing incomes and so on, so how did all that work for you? Carla Birnberg 16:44So Well, I mean, I gratitude. There's I read somewhere once and I'm sure someone famous said it, and I should quote them, but I can't remember who if you woke up tomorrow with only what you were grateful for today. What would that look like? And I have such a gratitude practice kind of framed around that. And I was very lucky financially with the blogging got in at the beginning worked with some big big names Phila Birkenstock Wonderful Pistachios, Sears, who I think is no more worked with Venus Williams and really made it into a lucrative and enjoyable and impactful I could help people career until everyone became an influencer. And I read that landscape and thought it might be time to get out. Michael Hingson 17:36So the idea was, they were sort of sponsoring you, or they were paying you to write blogs for them. That's Carla Birnberg 17:42it, you know, they would come I mean, this was back in Paleozoic Era, like 2006. Let's say when I started, they would come with Okay, we have $35,000, what can you do for us? How many videos how many posts? Will you write, and we can put it on our website, Sears Venus Williams Birkenstock? Can you do print advertisement for us, though it was before everyone was an influencer? Where I get it. If I were the brand, I would think I'm going to pay 50 Different UT students $50 Each and see what I get versus these big paychecks to the original influencers? Yeah. Michael Hingson 18:24So you did that. And, and again, at some point, it sounds like you pivoted into what? Carla Birnberg 18:34Wow, let's go back to March 2020. It was before then that I read the landscape. You know, I had some podcasts that I hosted. So I know how hard you work. And I had written a book. And at that point, I was working with Venus. She blurbed, the cover of my book, and I thought, Where do I go from here? I was doing LIVESTRONG with a big website at the time, some content creation for them. And I was just in that moment of what should my next be when the world sort of started looking like it was changing. I had already been in conversations with a startup in Austin and Nairobi about doing some marketing for them, potentially just fractional short term CMO. And I thought I don't know what's happening here. COVID And I'm gonna do this because I don't think it's the time to work the gig economy even though I don't know what's happening. And I mean, again, gratitude said yes, took the leap had never done anything like this. I'd done the marketing I'd never worked globally and just thought, I'm gonna give this a shot. And I mean, it is no understatement to say it is the best Yes, I've ever said second to working with dentists. It's the best death I've ever said. Michael Hingson 19:50Why is that? Carla Birnberg 19:54It has changed my life. I mean, I traveled a lot as a child. My dad was a professor So he would take his sabbatical in. He did it twice in London. So I lived in Oxford and I've been exposed to the world but not, not in this consistent way. And the backdrop of my entire life I'm Jewish, but I'm not religious is Tikun Olam, which means repair the world. And really, it's we can't fix everything. So let's take our little tiny corner and try to fix it up as best we can. And I'd watched my parents do that. And I done some volunteering, but this global experience and given me an opportunity to really take my gifts and use them in a different way and meet so many different people. And it's just shifted my life perspective. And I'm so grateful. Michael Hingson 20:48Well, yeah, so tell me more about kind of what you did and what you're doing. Now. I'm assuming it's all related. Carla Birnberg 20:57It is the short version with the startup as with many startups, our whole goal was to eventually have the entire C suite team moved to Kenya, after about two and a half years. That's what happened. And I can tell you, I could have looked for a totally different job at that point, not gotten up at four in the morning. But gratitude spiritual practice, I just really felt that my work in Africa wasn't done. And I shifted to our foundation and became I was the head of culture and inclusion with the for profit startup, and moved kind of back to marketing on some level and became the chief storyteller, for next step Foundation. Michael Hingson 21:44And the next step foundation. Sounds pretty fascinating. Tell me more about that, if you would, Carla Birnberg 21:49we focus on helping the historically and it gets back to semantics, you and I had a really great pre interview chat about that the historically excluded I now do not love the word marginalized, mostly from my, my project persons with disabilities, but the whole foundation, it's women and youth and persons with disabilities by we recruit them, we assess what they need, we accommodate whatever their needs are. Maybe this is a young woman who has no digital skills, maybe this young man needs a screen reader. And then we train them. And unlike many nonprofits in the Global South, we don't just train, we then transition them into the job and support them in the job, after mentorship, kind of making sure that they have everything they need, so that they can be successful and feel successful. It's not all about the career. It's also about feeling really good about the work that they're doing. Michael Hingson 22:55So where does the next step foundation function primarily? Carla Birnberg 22:59It is mainly in Nairobi. So it's yes, it's been a big shift, when I was with the for profit entity, there are probably 17 of us in the States. Now there to go around noon, it can feel like a ghost town. I love my team, because they'll stay up late for me. But mostly in Nairobi, we have a small office here. Michael Hingson 23:26And so tell me a little bit more about about what you do. And we definitely can have the discussion here that we had ahead of time. And I'll let you kind of lead that as to where you'd like it to go. But tell me a little bit more about what what you actually do now and and kind of how all that works. Carla Birnberg 23:46I'm so it's such perfect timing for us to talk. You know, I started chief storyteller, this is great. I got to help with some marketing language. That was fun. And my favorite aspect of the job, which is not my new project is helping to create the impact narratives of our participants. Because I mean, it's almost like a puzzle where I interview them. And then I get snippets half of the time, it's in Swahili, so I pull in other team members to translate and kind of get that opportunity to weave it into a story. And our focus at the foundation is ethical storytelling. I have nothing to do with the story. My perspective doesn't matter. And in addition to that, and I know that the participants and people with whom I've worked at Next Step sort of chuckle, but we always ask for vigorous and consistent consent. So if I write a fantasy story, and he says, yep, here's my story. Yes, he's my picture. He approves everything. I put it on LinkedIn. And then I want to share it on Twitter. I'm going back to him, because it's really important to us as a foundation and me as chief storage Heller, at any time, a Fontas could say, You know what, I'm kind of over it. I don't want you to share my story anymore of going from x and acquiring my disability and then doing this and getting this job. And we would say, okay, so I love that facet of my job, the storyteller, and yet I had a little gap of time. And that's how this new project was created. The one that you and I have spoken about. And can I transition into that? Yes, you are excited. Okay. It's, I'm so thrilled we just finished our pilot program. It's called oo p li, which means secondary and key Swahili. Michael Hingson 25:39And how do you spell that? Up? Carla Birnberg 25:41i Li. Okay, great. I know I actually had on my appealing necklace. And then I've no idea why I thought I would be a grown up and take it off. Because I'd like to wear it in the community. So people say, hey, Carla, actually, I have a keychain. They'll say, hey, Carla, what is your necklace? What is your pili? And then I whip out my keychain, Michael with the QR code on the back. And I'm like, Thank you for asking, here's the website and how you can give me money. very appealing means secondary. And we thought I thought, wouldn't it be amazing if we went into these special schools in Kenya, which is their way of defining the schools that are created only for persons with disabilities, typically, very segregated schools for the blind schools for the deaf, there are some which are for all disabilities. And there are some which they also call integrated, which means for people who do not have a disability and those with disabilities, the plan was to go into these schools and meet material needs, build perimeter walls, give them new desks, supply hot water heaters, things that are very important and that I thought, this is the answer we went to visit. And I suddenly it dawned on the entire team. This is great, giving physical items. But this is all for something many, many NGOs are already doing. They'll come in, every Oprah gets a new desk, they'll come in, we will paint and build new hospitals, what we would call dormitories. So I met with our team who went to joy town, this is where we did our pilot there all the antics, persons with disabilities and said, Okay, a lot of people are meeting this need for the physical items. What else is in need? That is even more pressing. And this is when the conversation began around what I was aware of, I thought through doing the impact storytelling, I was not aware of the deep degree. And we started talking about the stigma around being a person with a disability and Kenya, the stigma from childhood, the discrimination as they grew older, and the more we talk as a team, the more we realized, it's therapy. It's counselors with disabilities going into these special schools, and doing group therapy with students with disabilities to give them that psychosocial support needed, filling the gaps with what they might already be getting at school. So they build their self confidence. So when they graduate, and finally graduate, I know I'm excited, an equal rate as their non disabled peers, they can thrive, they can get their jobs because they process this past trauma. Michael Hingson 28:50So in general, how our disability is treated in Kenya, as opposed to in the US or in East Africa in general, how are how are they treated differently? Or are they treated differently? Or do you think that there are a lot of similarities? I Carla Birnberg 29:06would be the first to say that I am not. I'm, as not evidenced in this moment. I'm a listener more than a talker. So I've had an interesting conversation about this with friends with disabilities in the States. I would still say that the stigma is tremendous. We've come a little bit further here. I've written the stories of a lot of my team members and the pressure on their parents after they were born to leave the baby at the hospital to euthanize the baby. Because there's still that fear in the villages not so much in Nairobi, that the child has a curse. The family is now curse. They hide the children away frequently. I remember one student was talking about how her mother had tried to To kill her, and the assumption I came from was, Oh, that's very sad, you know, she was a baby, and she was probably 13 or 14, no, this had happened last spring break from school, there's so much shame and fear that I just don't see here. Michael Hingson 30:21Or at least hear, it may be covered up more, but there's still a lot of it. We still hear of, oh, say blind parents who want to who have a child, and the courts want to take them the child away, or their ballot battles around that, or parents who just shelter their children with disabilities and don't let them explore. So I had to write, I think, I think it may be that, that the hiding is more sophisticated in some ways. But I think to a very large degree, it's still there. And I think that it is because of what you said, it's the fear. And what we don't realize collectively, as a society, is that disability shouldn't mean a lack of ability, as, as I tell people, and then they say, well, but disability starts with dis. And I said, Yeah, and so does disciple, and so does discern. So what are you saying? You know, the the fact is that dis isn't the issue. It's the perception, it's the fear. It's the prejudice, that we all need to overcome, and get to the point where we truly recognize that what disability is, is a characteristic that every single person has, except that it manifests itself differently for different people. Carla Birnberg 31:53Yes, I mean, my past four and a half years have been like a PhD, and I don't know what it would be, but I have been so educated by my team. And what you said made me think of a couple of things. One is my go to I couldn't do anything without her. Mariam and degla. She's my up Lee everything campus liaison. She has said repeatedly, you know, my parents she has cerebral palsy hadn't just been her mother and her grandmother, go, you're like any other child? No, we're not going to make accommodations for you, she said always says to me, I would not have come as far as they didn't shelter me. And that she credits that to her success in life. Michael Hingson 32:38Yeah, and actually, there are differences between accommodations. And yes, you're right sheltering. But I know what you're saying. And the reality is that we we make accommodations for sighted people all the time, right? We have lights in our buildings so that people can see where to walk, we have your right, we have a coffee machine so that people can get coffee or tea or hot chocolate or something, even though it's touchscreen nowadays, so it's not even accessible for everyone. We have so many different things that we offer. But we like it to be more one sided. We don't recognize that those are just as much accommodations as providing a screen reader for providing a ramp. Carla Birnberg 33:27And curb cut effect I had not heard of until four years ago. We use them all the time, the captions, all of it. And yet we avail ourselves of things that aren't created for us. Michael Hingson 33:42Right? The reality is that we all have gifts, and we all have things that we don't do as well as other people. And it is it is so unfortunate that we haven't even in this country taken the leap to really understand that. Carla Birnberg 34:04No, and I think I see that much more clearly. Now, I see that much more clearly not doing the work in East Africa. I do. You know, I think and I was thinking about this earlier, and I almost reached out to you by email, and then I thought now you're such a brilliant man, I'm gonna corner you And wouldn't you think that our therapists so we always use counselors with disabilities, first of all, so that the students see the counselor and think that's pretty amazing. I could do that. I had never I didn't dream that was possible. But also they have shared lived experience. If we'd had a counselor, even Kenyan go into his run this group therapy group who didn't have a disability, they would waste two or three sessions trying to explain to him or her, this is what it's like being me in Kenya. So he went in and thought okay, we are going to To practice affirmations using a mirror, this is going to be very interesting, the students might need some help bolstering their self esteem and coming up with the affirmations. I'm on it. She was surprised. And again, woman with a disability, that most of the students in therapy groups were completely unable to look in the mirror, because they had kind of integrated all of the negativity that had come at them from their families from the village. They couldn't even look at themselves in the mirror. And even she was shocked by that. And I'm really curious, your thoughts on is that unique to Kenya and that vast amount of negativity and stigma around having a disability? Or do you think that might be paralleled in the USA? Michael Hingson 35:47Well, I think there is a fair amount of it in the USA. I've not heard of anybody who said that they can't look at themselves in the middle. Except for vampires, but. But I do seriously think that there are a lot of similarities. So I've told the story a few times on unstoppable mindset. But I did a talk a few years ago, it was a hybrid talk. And I talked about disabilities. And I talked about the fact that for blind people. In reality, the term visually impaired is one of the most disgusting things that people can say to describe us, even though it's what the so called experts in the field created years ago, but visually impaired is a problem for a couple of reasons. One, visually, we're not different simply because we're blind to lose your eyesight, it doesn't mean that you're visually different. So that's a problem. But the bigger issue is impaired. Why am I being at all compared with person with eyesight? Why is it that I have to be considered impaired simply because I don't see if you want to talk about vision? I think I got lots of vision, I just don't see good. Like, I'd love to tell people. Don't I talk? Well, anyway. So I think that the term visually impaired is a problem. And I mentioned that in my talk. And I also said, the better terminology is blind and low vision. A lot of people hate blind, but you know what, that's what I am. And I happen to be physically blind. And there are a lot of idiots out there who are mentally blind, and we won't go there. Carla Birnberg 37:30We won't go encountered a lot. Michael Hingson 37:32But But anyway, so the the issue with the talk is I gave this talk. And then I opened it for questions. And people could in the audience, ask questions, or people could call in and this one woman called in, and she said, I am visually impaired. And that's all there is to it. And I said, No, you're not, you're blind. No, I have I just I have some eyesight, then you're low vision. No, I'm visually impaired. See, the problem is all too often we buy into it. And we don't understand how that kind of language continuing to be promulgated around, contributes to the view that people have about us. I love that phrase buy Carla Birnberg 38:18into it. That's it, I Michael Hingson 38:20am not impaired. And if I'm going to talk about being impaired, even though your disability is covered up so much, because you have access to electric lights, just have a power failure and see what you do, you immediately look for a smartphone or a flashlight so that you can get light back, because Thomas Edison invented the electric light bulb for you. You like dependent people. But the bottom line is it still is only covering up your disability. Disability is a characteristic that we all have every single person on the planet. And it only manifests itself differently depending on what your gifts are and what your gifts are not. Carla Birnberg 39:03Okay, super interesting. And well, I'm sure I should have thought about this. But 54 and a half, I hadn't really thought about it much because I've never broken anything. And I'm just getting to this point. But again, Mary and my right hand woman will frequently say, in high school, I advocated for youth students with disabilities and people who had temporary disabilities. And that's a pretty big refrain from her. And the more she said it the more I've thought, oh, yeah, everyone is going to experience some sort of something, whether it's breaking your leg, whether it's becoming low vision, better phrase, Michael Hingson 39:44or, or whether you suddenly lose power and you can't see what you're doing. And that's my point. Yeah, no, that's my point is that the reality is the disability is there anyway. Yeah, but we do work. And right At least so to offset disabilities that limit us like a lack of light, it's okay, I have no problem with the fact that we have light bulbs, we have so many different mechanisms and ways of producing light for people. But be honest with yourself, it still is a disability, because the time can come when you don't have access to it, the time can come that a person who happens to be blind, might be somewhere and not have access to information that we would like to have access to and ought to have access to. Yeah, and only over more time, will society recognize that it has to provide information to us in in ways that work for everyone, I have a favorite example, I'm not gonna really not be able to describe this very well. But I'm going to try. There's a TV commercial that goes on out here. And the commercial starts out with this woman saying, you know, dad had this. And I don't want you to get it either. You have to really take care of yourself and take care of this right now. Because if you don't, it is going to run your life. And I know that you're one of these, you don't really like anyone telling you what to do. Well, that's the end of the commercial. And I don't know what goes on. There is absolutely nothing. And I don't know whether you've seen that commercial earlier. But there is nothing that says what that commercial is about. Now, someone this morning, I talked with someone who told me that it has to do with some sort of medical thing. And but But even she couldn't remember exactly what it was because there is not a single verbal cue in that commercial telling you what it's about. Much less making it accessible to be Yeah, yeah. And the reality is that, as we all know, many times people don't sit in front of their TV during commercials, they look away or they get up and they go to the bathroom or whatever. It is such a poorly designed commercial because of that. And, and it's unfortunate. But somebody figured, well, we don't need to worry about it other than people being able to see it, and they'll see it and they'll get it. No, they won't. Because it's all too often that people don't watch the screen. And as I said this morning, the person I asked who I regard as an extremely observant person couldn't even tell me what company that commercial was about. Carla Birnberg 42:45Oh, interesting. And you're right, the world's not, it's not set up accessively. In many instances, it's Michael Hingson 42:53not set up. Well, accessively or inclusively, we are much less inclusive than we ought to be that commercial could have been created in a much different way to provide information to everyone. But they didn't. And it's so unfortunate. So it shows in some senses, although I think we've made progress in this country. It also shows how far we have not come because that kind of thing still exists. 43:26Yes. Yes. Carla Birnberg 43:29I mean, I've thought so much about this, since we set the date for the podcast and just every day at work that my perspective doesn't matter. It's been interesting to me to see. There's a feels like there's a big differential as far as the trauma, outgrowth of being a person with disability. But other than that, that's really the only major difference. And that's what made us think, okay, we need to focus on mitigating this trauma so that the students can be successful. Michael Hingson 44:00Well, there's a lot of merit to having role models. And when you bring people in, who are true role models, it makes a lot of sense to do that. And I think there's a lot of precedent for that. So having counselors having people who come from the same kind of environment that they come from, is very relevant. I spoke in Japan, back in 2012. Well, it was the publisher of thunder dog. My book in Japanese brought me over for two weeks. And one of the things that I learned there was that if you are a blind person, I don't know if it's changed since then. But if you're a blind person, you are not allowed to sign a contract. Period. You can't see a contract period. How am I asked this Someone who was in the insurance industry why? And his response essentially was was it should be very obvious because you could be cheated. And I said, Oh, so you're telling me that no sighted people in Japan are ever cheated when it comes to signing contracts? Oh, exactly. Even though today, there is technology that allows me to fully read contracts. Right? All right, with that time, the Kurzweil Reading Machine, the mobile KNFB. Reader Mobile, although it hadn't come out in Japanese yet, but it has since. But the reality is, again, it's the prejudice. For many years, the Gallup polling organization and surveying people's fears, said that one of the top five fears that people had was going blind, not even disabilities, but losing eyesight, because that's for her that because that's what we emphasize eyesight. But it's not the way it ought to be. Over time, it will change. And I firmly believe that we will see a day when television commercials like the one I described earlier will be not tolerated. But I think we're not anywhere near there yet. Somebody once said to me, I look forward to the day when we don't have to even use the word accessible, because it's just such an automatic thing, that everything is included for everyone. 46:33That's it. Carla Birnberg 46:34That's it. And I don't know if you know who Judy human is. I've been okay. But we both became really far. In her lifetime. And I don't know, I'm curious, your thoughts? Will we get there? I mean, I know we're trying to in Kenya, where companies hire these, again, like which they are persons with disabilities, they're trained, they're brilliant, they're ready to go, and they just start work and everything they need isn't an accommodation. It's just the way the office is. And I hope we get there here. Michael Hingson 47:15Yeah, I think we will. But I do think that the way the world is now we have to legislate it, because attitude only we're not there. You know, one of the big discussions in the world has been the internet. And many people have not made their websites accessible. Yeah, hence the need for companies like excessive be. Yeah, but but people have said, well, but we we don't need to do it because the internet came along, after the ADA. So the ADA covers physical things, but it doesn't cover the internet, because it's just the way it is. Well, yeah. The reality is is not what the ADEA says it doesn't talk about specifically and only physical places of business. And finally, in 2022, the Department of Justice, II dicted, if you will, that the internet is covered under Title, two of the Americans with Disabilities Act, and website should be made, accessible and inclusive. Yeah, but even so Michael Hingson 48:30a lot of well, most website owners don't pay attention to it, they think it's too expensive. But again, hence companies like accessibility and what access to be brings. But also, the the other aspect of it is that most people just don't even know they don't think about it. It doesn't need to be expensive to make the internet or your website accessible or inclusive. But it's also the right thing to do, because it covers more than just blindness. And the fact is that there's so many different kinds of disabilities that are affected by not having full access to the internet. And it's easy enough to do. And there are procedures and guidelines that describe exactly what needs to be done and how to do it. If people would just do it. That's it Carla Birnberg 49:24and people don't. Five years ago, I was people like and it's no better do better. I sent to a big social media person the other day. I love your I don't know, we're calling them exes, your tweets, but you never use alt text on your picture. And he said, I don't even know what that is. Yeah. And so I thought it's what you said that sometimes people are lazy websites and as people think it'd be too expensive. Sometimes they just don't think Michael Hingson 49:54some people just don't know. Yes, it we don't teach it In computer science schools very much like we should. I'm involved with an organization that is creating its website. And they went out and got bids from two local places to make the website up and running to get it up and running and operational. And I said, as as part of a discussion, and what are they doing regarding accessibility? Oh, they say that they know how to do that. And I said, Tell me more about that. Well, one of the companies said, Well, the fact is that it isn't the website design that has to be addressed. The person with a screen reader has to make the accommodations and make the modifications to work on the website. 50:47Oh, that's not what we want to hear. Well, oh, that is so wrong. Oh, my God, and so neither ms on them. Michael Hingson 50:55Yeah. And so accessible is going to be the the product that they use, rightly so because the company, the website owner doesn't have a lot of money. But it will be possible to make the website accessible. And we found another company that will do the job for the same price or less than any of the other companies. And it will include accessibility. And they will actually use accessibility, because it's such a great product to use for making this kind of thing happen. But the reality is, the the original people who were looking at getting the website quotes, also were clueless. And they were ready to buy into well, it's got to be the sky with the screen reader just got to fix it. Until they learned, we don't teach it yet. We don't teach real inclusion yet, as a part of what we do, and it's something that we really need to look at. We'll get there. You're Carla Birnberg 51:57right, you're right. And it's people like me who I'm not doing any sort of web design. But I launched a substack. I was late to that party, and I wanted to make it accessible. So I always have a voiceover. And a bunch of readers have said to me, that super me that you read it. I'm like, well, it is super neat, but it's for accessibility. And like, oh, I don't even think about that. So I think it's the lay people, we need to start spreading the word. And I don't know how we do that, except for leading by example, practice living Michael Hingson 52:27by example, writing more articles, including disabilities in the conversation. And all too often we don't do that. Carla Birnberg 52:35And that's why one of the biggest reasons why I love where I work, I'm taking the backseat. And when it was the for profit, I had a whole team of persons with disabilities who told me what was what and how things should be and what language to use. And I listened. And now same thing, I will look to marry him or Daniel or Terry or Becky, what do we need here? Why do we need it all make it happen? But you tell me I don't have the lived experience? 53:04Yeah. Well, Michael Hingson 53:07as I said, I think the most important thing we need to do is to really push the conversation to always involve disabilities. When you talk about diversity, you know, what is there? What is diversity to you? Carla Birnberg 53:19And, you know, I think I would have answered differently 10 years ago, but now it's always inclusion. It's well, Michael Hingson 53:27but that's, that's not diversity. Tell me what diversity is. And use your answer from 10 years ago. Okay. Carla Birnberg 53:3410 years ago, I would have thought it's bringing persons of color into the conversation and not having everybody looked the same Michael Hingson 53:43race, gender, sexual orientation, Carla Birnberg 53:46and maybe not even sexual orientation, because I think I would have been 10 years ago. Yeah, would have been, Michael Hingson 53:52but three and four years ago, yeah. But today, race, gender, sexual orientation. Diversity is about difference. And we don't include disabilities. We don't include persons with disabilities or or Carla Birnberg 54:11we do with the foundation. And when you what are your thoughts on that? Well, I think Michael Hingson 54:16the issue is that that's why I gave a speech entitled, moving from diversity to inclusion. You can't be inclusive, if you are not bringing disabilities into it, like as part of the population. But but we're, we're inclusive of color and so on, but you're not inclusive. You can't get away with it if we don't allow it. So we're not going to let inclusion be screwed up, if you will, like we have allowed diversity to be screwed up and not including disabilities. And that's what what we really need to do is to take that step of recognizing that we're all part of the same planet And we all need to recognize that and it's important to do that. Carla Birnberg 55:06And I know I mean, that's kind of where my project fits into the greater umbrella of the foundation is. The youth with disabilities, students with disabilities weren't graduating. And so the office landscapes weren't inclusive or reflecting the true population. And we need to help the students graduate so that the foundation can step in and train them and job place them so that we're inclusive. And the makeup of the officers look like the real makeup of society. Michael Hingson 55:41So what motivates you to get up in those, do those early morning or stay up for those late night phone calls? Carla Birnberg 55:47Oh, my gosh, thank goodness, I think this all the time, even if I didn't get up early. I'm not late night. So thank goodness, I don't work for a foundation in India. You know, I'm passionate, somewhat my Nespresso, which I love. But I've mentioned Mary Ann's name a million times, Beth, what do goo I love my team. And I think when the alarm goes off at four, it's noon, or it's one o'clock, what's going on? I just love it. It's, I don't know, it's my why it's that notion of, I'm not making huge difference in the world, somebody in the middle of Iowa has no idea who I am. But I'm making a tiny little impact, and I'm loving what I'm learning, and I'm loving every minute of it. Michael Hingson 56:37And that's the important thing. You love it. You know, you love it. And you're gonna continue to do it. If people want to reach out and learn more about the next step Foundation, or maybe become involved in some way, how can they do that? Carla Birnberg 56:52I would love it, I am up for a zoom anytime the best way to find me would be going to LinkedIn. And it's U P I L I Upili. message us, I would love to chat. We're always looking for insights for mental health professionals in the United States. Clearly, we're always looking for donors, but just conversations around what we're doing. And I'm always curious what other people are doing as well how they are making an impact. Michael Hingson 57:23So just search for U p i l i on LinkedIn. That's Carla Birnberg 57:28right Upili, we have a website, it's upili.org. But either of those two ways. You can find me. Okay, Michael Hingson 57:35and that's and that's all connected to the next step foundation. Carla Birnberg 57:38Yep, we're a project underneath them. Cool. Michael Hingson 57:41Well, I hope people will reach out. I know that they've heard me say some of these same things before a number of times. But it's great to hear the progress that you're making and the things that you're doing. And I really hope that we're able to contribute to bringing progress, both in East Africa and that we through this conversation, we'll get more people talking about it here in the US as well. Carla Birnberg 58:10Yes, and I always loved listening to you and talking to you. Because it gets me thinking in a different way to Michael Hingson 58:15well, we should do more of it than total, we can both learned to to get different perspectives. Well, I want to thank you for being here. And I want to thank all of you for and I want to thank you all for listening. We really appreciate it or watching if you're on YouTube. But wherever you're experiencing the podcast, we would really appreciate it if you'd give us a five star rating. We love those and we love your reviews. So please do that. If you'd like to reach out to me and have any questions or want to chat further about this, please feel free. You can reach me at Michaelhi at accessibe.com That's m i c h a e l h i at accessiBe A C C E S S I B E.com. Or you can go to our podcast page, which is www dot Michael hingson.com/podcast. And Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n.com/podcasts. So we'd love to hear from you. And if any of you, including you, Carla, have a thought of anyone who else we ought to have on as a guest love to hear from you. We are always looking for people who want to come on and tell stories and talk about interesting things. And even if we talk about some of the same things we've talked about before on the podcast, I don't think it gets boring. And the more we do it, the more people will gain an understanding of it. So we sure look forward to hearing from you with ideas of guests and other people who want to be part of the podcast. So thank you very much and really appreciate your your involvement in that. But again, Carla, I want to thank you for being here and for taking the time to be with us today. Thank you so much for having me. It was so fun Michael Hingson 1:00:07You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com . AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

View Details

In Episode 156 I had the honor to speak with Garett Tomasek, U.S. leader of Best Buddies. Garett was introduced to me and the Unstoppable Mindset by accessiBe’s own Sheldon Lewis, also a past guest on the podcast. Sheldon also introduced me to an incredible woman who is a Best Buddy in Canada. Meet Jessica Rotolo who is a talented and fearless 25-year-old model, artist, self-advocate, actor and dancer, who has a passion for performing on film and stage. Jessica was born with Downs Syndrome. I empathize a great deal as my parents, like Jessica’s, were told that she would be a burden on them. As with my parents, Jessica’s parents, especially her mom, fiercely opposed the idea that their daughter could not grow up to do whatever she wanted with her life. Along the way, Jessica was introduced to Best Buddies Canada where she met one of her pier buddies, Lauren Abela.

Under the Best Buddies program, a Best Buddy like Jessica gets a new “pier buddy” every year. These people are volunteers who choose to become friends and mentors for persons with development or intellectual disabilities. In the case of Lauren and Jessica, their relationship flourished, and they became and still are clearly best friends, and Jessica’s mom, Dorlean is also part of the team. Mom refers to herself as Jessica’s Momager and prefers to work behind the scenes. However, she clearly is a significant part of the conversation you get to experience on this episode.

Clearly these three are an unstoppable force. Lauren is a leader in Best Buddies and Jessica is an international ambassador for the program. Check out this episode and be ready to be inspired and encouraged.

About the Guest:

Jessica RotoloJessica is a talented and fearless 25-year-old model, artist, self-advocate, actor and dancer, who has a passion for performing on film and stage. Jessica was born with Down syndrome and is a role model for her community as well as an Ambassador for DramaWay, Best Buddies Canada and Best Buddies International. As the recipient of several awards, Jessica has also been recognized in the Ontario Legislative Assembly and the Canadian House of Commons for her outstanding international commitment in advocating and fundraising for her Down Syndrome community. She has performed in several musical drama productions throughout her career at DramaWay, a Toronto drama company serving the All-Abilities community. She has been a guest on several Canadian News Stations and Talk Shows. She has appeared in numerous campaigns for the Canadian Down Syndrome Society and a Documentary called “Employable Me Canada” not to mention a number of other fashion shows and photo shoots, including the Fashion Arts Toronto show and with designer 3ndolith.

Dorlean Rotolo

As her “Momager,” Dorlean is committed to supporting her daughter, Jessica, in all aspects of her career of modeling, acting, dancing and her advocacy for Best Buddies Canada, Best Buddies International and the Down syndrome community at large.

Lauren Abela

Lauren is a recent psychology graduate and now Student Recruitment Officer at the University of Guelph-Humber. She was first introduced to Best Buddies in high school at St. Jean de Brebeuf in Vaughan, Canada. Lauren fell in love with the atmosphere and purpose of the organization, and soon took on greater leadership roles including co-founding her own chapter with Jessica and becoming Canada’s first Global Ambassadors for Best Buddies together. Because of Jessica, Lauren chose her thesis research topic to be called, “Down Syndrome Acceptance: Changing Attitudes Through Interventions.” Through her research, she found a positive relationship between disability education and inclusionary attitudes. Lauren is grateful to have attended university on a full scholarship as a Founders’ Academic Merit Scholarship recipient, and made the most of her last 4 years as an active member in the community. Upon graduating, she received her school’s top graduation awards, including Gold Medallion for Leadership Excellence and Michael Nightingale Community Enrichment Award. Presently, Lauren plans to pursue further education to become a Registered Psychologist and continue her research assistantship with her former professor’s non-profit, Teaching & Learning Research (TLR) In Action, studying the accessibility of post-secondary classrooms for the visually impaired. In the meantime, she travels around Ontario promoting her school, encouraging students to apply for scholarships and consider joining Best Buddies. Best Buddies taught her that friendships are not something to be taken for granted, and the power of giving kindness to someone who needs it most holds immeasurable impact.

Ways to connect with Jessica, Dorlean & Lauren:

1. Best Buddies Canada Instagram: https://instagram.com/bestbuddiescanada?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==
2. Best Buddies Canada Website: https://bestbuddies.ca
3. Jessica’s Instagram: https://instagram.com/jessica.rotolo20?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==
4. Jessica’s Linktree Website: https://linktr.ee/Jessica.Rotolo20
5. Shop Jessica’s Cards: https://kidicarus.ca/product-tag/jessica-rotolo/
6. About the Host:Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.

Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children’s Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association’s 2012 Hero Dog Awards.

https://michaelhingson.comhttps://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/https://twitter.com/mhingsonhttps://www.youtube.com/user/mhingsonhttps://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/

accessiBe Linkshttps://accessibe.com/https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBehttps://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/

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Transcription Notes:

Michael Hingson 00:00Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.

Michael Hingson 01:21Well, hello once again and welcome to unstoppable mindset today we get to do something a little bit different, something we haven't done a lot, although when we do it. It's kind of fun. And that is we have more than one guest on the podcast today. Several months ago, we had a guest on Garrett Tomasek, who is involved with best buddies in the United States. And if you listened to that episode, you had a chance to learn about Best Buddies. And he was introduced to us by Sheldon Lewis here at AccessiBe well. Along the way, Sheldon also introduced us introduced us if I could talk I'd be in great shape but introduced us to Jessica Rotolo and Dorlean Rotolo and Lauren Abela. Lauren is a best buddy Jessica is a best buddy of Lauren's. And we also have, as I said, other people involved in this whole thing specifically Darlene, who is Jessica's mom, she prefers to be called her momager. And we're going to talk all about that. But Jessica is involved in a lot of different events. Jessica is a model, she's an actress, she does a variety of different kinds of things. And she was born with Down syndrome. So we're going to talk about all of that. And we're going to talk about best buddies and do whatever it is that we need to do to make this a fun time. So sit back, relax and enjoy the ride. And I think I'm going to start with Jessica and say welcome to unstoppable mindset. How are you?

Jessica Rotolo 03:00Yes, I'm great. I'm great. I go. ahead, go ahead. I am 25 years old, and I live in Toronto, Ontario, Canada, and I was born with Down syndrome. And right here is a buddy of mine, a pure buddy who I love.

Lauren Abela 03:21Lauren. Jessica is hugging me right now. I'm Lauren.

Jessica Rotolo 03:24And my mom who I live with

Michael Hingson 03:29Hug your mom too.

Dorlean Rotolo 03:30And I'm getting hugs right now.

Michael Hingson 03:33Okay, just checking for

Dorlean Rotolo 03:35being just as mom is the amount of hugs we get. Well, that's kind of I once said on a documentary she did that she she would be a professional hugger.

Jessica Rotolo 03:45And that was called employable me. And that was when I was looking for a job and they helped me actually get a job at Navara the costume rental store. And well, so they do and they also helped me get my art and to Christmas cards.

Michael Hingson 04:04Oh, so do you have a job today? Today?

Jessica Rotolo 04:07I do. I actually work at my preschool. Centennial. Jobcentre. Ah, okay, I am a path forward classroom assistant there because I went to Centennial when I was a kid, a baby, a baby, a

Michael Hingson 04:27baby. Well, that's kind of cool. Well, Lauren, let's welcome you also to unstoppable mindset. How are you?

Lauren Abela 04:34I'm doing good. I'm nervous but excited.

Michael Hingson 04:38Don't be nervous. No need to be nervous.

Dorlean Rotolo 04:43You don't bite do you?

Michael Hingson 04:45Never anxious. Just food. And humans are not food. So no. Well, Lauren, tell us a little bit about you kind of growing up. Why don't you start us off with that. We learned already a little bit about Jeff because she's 25, and she was born with Down syndrome, we'll come back to that. But tell us about you, Lauren. Yeah,

Lauren Abela 05:05so I was born, normally developing, I have a twin brother and two older sisters, born and raised here in Ontario, Canada. And I first got involved in high school with best buddies in the 11th grade. So halfway into my career, and I haven't left since. So

Michael Hingson 05:24how did you discover Best Buddies?

Lauren Abela 05:26So I know that the club had a presence around my high school. And they would often host events and have tables set up during club fairs, and they would have big sales. So within those first couple years, I was getting familiar with the organization. And then finally, in the 11th grade, they were recruiting people for to join the Club. And then after that, I was like, you know, why not? What's, what's stopping me from joining and just and making new friends. So that was why I wanted to go and join and was that hope of making new friends and here I am today, so incredibly blessed to have my truly lifetime best friend Jessica?

Jessica Rotolo 06:06Yes. And I started best buddies in grade nine of high school. And I've been in Best Buddies for 10 plus years. And it's been a fun ride through it. Oh,

Michael Hingson 06:24well, how did you discover Best Buddies? We heard how Lauren did. But Jessica, how did you discover Best Buddies?

Jessica Rotolo 06:30I actually heard about it from a teacher in class that Emily Chang was an is her name. And she told everyone about it. And I said, oh, oh, join. And I heard of I joined and I loved it ever since.

Dorlean Rotolo 06:57Now. How to highland park.

Jessica Rotolo 07:00Yeah. To Highland Park High School. Yeah. How

Michael Hingson 07:05close in age are you to learn and Jessica?

Jessica Rotolo 07:08Well, I'm 25 and Lauren is 22 turns.Okay, four months?

Michael Hingson 07:13Yeah. All right. So, so you and how old? How old? Were you, Jessica, when you were in the ninth grade and started voting and best? You were four. Okay. My gosh. Okay. So, you started well, before Lauren, how did you guys meet and become best buddies.

Jessica Rotolo 07:31So we met when I went to Humber College, when I went there. And I, she called Best Buddies, Canada. And she wanted to join, she wanted to start up a Best Buddies group up there. And I called Best Buddies, Canada. And I said that I want to start up as buddies up there as well. So best buddies, Canada basically. put us together. And we met first at Humber, at the Starbucks there, and we decided to start up a Best Buddies chapter.

Lauren Abela 08:14And, Michael, just to add on to that, if you're not, if, you know, just to share some background information that's based Canada is quite a small leadership team. So we had reached out to different people within the organization. And then in office, they're like, Hey, someone from Hungary reached out. Yeah. Someone from the University of Guelph Humber reached out. So it was the team over at the space Canada. Deanna and Vicki who connected Jessica and I together. Yes.

Dorlean Rotolo 08:40And the university and the college are right beside each other. They are Yeah, so.

Jessica Rotolo 08:46So the Humber College actually went to 12. Humber University University.

Michael Hingson 08:50Right. So did you get a college degree, Jessica?

Jessica Rotolo 08:57Well, I was in the sea ice program there. And that is a two year program for people with special needs, like me and other people who have autism and other any

Michael Hingson 09:14special special special needs. Yeah,

Dorlean Rotolo 09:16it's a two year program. Yes,

Jessica Rotolo 09:18a two year program. And I was in person for a little bit and then COVID happened. And I was online, which I did not like. Yeah, yeah. But I also did a documentary in 2018 called employable me. And that's when I got the job and the cards, but they also said that I was eligible to graduate two years before 2015. And that meant that if I graduated, then I would have gone to Humber College in person all throughout

Dorlean Rotolo 09:56Europe, but then I don't think you'll remember Lauren. Yeah. Yeah, I meant to be,

Jessica Rotolo 10:01but it was meant to be. But I went, I deferred it for a year and then an orphan. Yeah. Worked out.

Michael Hingson 10:08Yeah. Sodid you go back to college and finish or?

Jessica Rotolo 10:12Well, I defer it for a year. And they went to Humber what engineering.

Dorlean Rotolo 10:18She got accepted. But then she deferred the acceptance for one year because I had a number of things she was doing. So then she went to college for the two year program. Okay. The second year was COVID. So yeah, she was

Lauren Abela 10:31Jessica. I can't imagine what if you had beat me to starting the chapter? Chapter. Yeah.

Michael Hingson 10:40So after COVID, so you haven't gone back and finished your second year yet? No,

Jessica Rotolo 10:45no, I'm done now. Oh, no,

Dorlean Rotolo 10:47you finished? She finished it online,

Michael Hingson 10:49online. Okay. Okay. And I

Jessica Rotolo 10:51graduated online as well. Cool.

Michael Hingson 10:55So you virtually walked across the stage and got here. So Dorlean, tell us about you a little bit, kind of your life growing up, and then certainly having the opportunity to be with Jessica, and being a mom and all that. This has obviously been different for you than probably what you expected?

Dorlean Rotolo 11:20Oh, absolutely. I grew up in Saskatchewan and rural farming community. My father was a farmer, my mother, a nurse and, you know, had a lovely life in not in Saskatchewan, and then move to the mountains. And then after when I was living in Banff, I decided I wanted to move out to Ontario, so moved here and luckily met my husband. And you know, we had Jessica and it certainly was a shock like most families when you have a surprise that you weren't expecting, and but we wouldn't change Jessica in any any possible way. She is a force to be reckoned with. Yes. And the Down Syndrome has not stopped her from leading an unbelievable life. I

Jessica Rotolo 12:06do anything anyone else can do. Yeah, she's

Dorlean Rotolo 12:09very, very accomplished, young lady. And we're incredibly proud of her. And my first time that actually I went to a hotel to a, an event in Vaughan, which is north of Ontario. And I didn't know it, but it was a Best Buddies event that was being put on. And I remember having a t shirt from it that I eventually just gave away because I'm like, I don't know why I have this t shirt anymore. And then lo and behold, when Jessica, signs up for Best Buddies, I'm like, Oh my gosh, I should have kept that T shirt. Yeah.

Michael Hingson 12:46Yeah. Well, so do you have other children? Yes,

Dorlean Rotolo 12:49we have one daughter. Her name is Bobby. And she's doing her PhD in Waterloo, Ontario, and very proud of her. She started her PhD when she was 22 years old. And that's in public health. And yeah, she's doing very accomplished younger woman as well.

Michael Hingson 13:05Jessica, are you gonna go get a PhD?

Jessica Rotolo 13:08I don't know. Yeah. To a makeup course. So I want to learn everything to know that is about makeup.

Dorlean Rotolo 13:20Well, when you go into her bedroom at Sephora.

Jessica Rotolo 13:26She's got a makeup to

Michael Hingson 13:29what to tell people a little bit about Jessica. Jessica is a model. She's an artist, self advocate, actor, and dancer. And you have performed in a variety of different kinds of things that I do want to get to all that. But the point is that you are definitely doing a lot of stuff. So maybe a PhD isn't in your future, and that's okay. Or you might decide down the line that you want to be more of an academic, but that's probably a whole lot more boring than being an artist and a dancer. And especially, I speak from experience being a self advocate. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, so you

Jessica Rotolo 14:08I am a self advocate for Down syndrome and Best

Dorlean Rotolo 14:12Buddies and alopecia and alopecia because

Jessica Rotolo 14:15in 2014, I was on a pill for sleep disorders and I caused alopecia.

Dorlean Rotolo 14:25Yeah, target all patients.

Michael Hingson 14:28Tell us about that. Tell us what that is. How

Jessica Rotolo 14:31alopecia is hair loss. So I was completely bald from head to toe. Like hair, eyebrows, lashes everywhere.

Dorlean Rotolo 14:42And then so we after nine months from the pill Jessica passed out. So we took the took her off the pill and then within eight months her hair started growing back. Yeah. But then there were still patches that were not coming back. So Jessica was would go to Sandy Brooklyn. hospital. Yes. And every three months is hollow just

Jessica Rotolo 15:03there. We did 50. So it is a 50 steroid injections and my head and eyebrows. And that did not work

Dorlean Rotolo 15:14every three months. And then very luckily Pfizer came out with a trial test pill, which Jessica was accepted to three and a half years ago. And so she's been going to a dermatologist and she's on that. And it's grown her hair to 32 inches long.

Jessica Rotolo 15:30Wow. And growing and growing. And going with the pill. Yeah.

Jessica Rotolo 15:36And now we're doing a documentary on my hair grow hair loss and hair growth journey. And I'll be cutting my hair off shoulder length, and I'll be donating my hair as a wig to someone who has

Dorlean Rotolo 15:58alopecia. So continental hair is where Jessica bought a number of weeks when she had her hair loss. And they are graciously part of the documentary with Sunnybrook Hospital. And they will, Michael Suba. His name is and he will be donate making a way out of justice hair that will be donated to a young woman who is suffering from alopecia.

Michael Hingson 16:22Oh, that's that's pretty cool. Yeah.

Dorlean Rotolo 16:25And she's getting her hair cut when I started taping this weekend.

Jessica Rotolo 16:31We can Yeah.

Michael Hingson 16:32What's the new documentary

Dorlean Rotolo 16:33gonna be about? Well, Jessica's hair loss and regrowth journey. Okay. And

Michael Hingson 16:38when will that be released?

Dorlean Rotolo 16:42For spring, spring? Because we'd like to enter into Tiff and all the film festivals, and then also put it into the educational system. Yes. So it'd be a 12 to 15 minute documentary. Yeah. So we're very excited about it. We have a wonderful director named Scott drecker. Who is, is doing all the filming will

Jessica Rotolo 17:02love him. Yeah. I also did a couple of public service announcements.

Dorlean Rotolo 17:09And that's how we know him. Yeah, that's how we did that was for the Down Syndrome.

Dorlean Rotolo 17:15Society. That's right,

Michael Hingson 17:16so. So Dorlean, what is best buddies meant for you? Clearly, and I know that Jessica and Lauren have thoughts about that, and we can talk about that. But I'm curious, what does it really mean for you?

17:32Well, the biggest thing for me was friendship. When Jessica joined, the friends that she made, and still has connected with is unbelievable. They are women that now our doctors are going to medical school. They are all very accomplished young women, and they still keep in touch with Jessica. So to me, it's friendship, this is what best buddies really is. For our family, and but also it's the, it's to the it's given just so many unbelievable opportunities to become a leader, they they have given her so many different ways where she can just shine and and and be that leader that we knew was in there. Because she hasn't gotten it from other other places, associations, but Best Buddies has just let her shine. I've been to two

Jessica Rotolo 18:29leadership conferences in Toronto, Canada, twice. One was a sleepover and when was a day thing?

Michael Hingson 18:39And what were the leadership conferences about or what did you accomplish there?

Jessica Rotolo 18:44Um, basically how to make new friends and learning how to speak in front of large crowds.

18:54Well, there you go. And be an advocate. Yeah.

Michael Hingson 18:58So Lauren, do you go to on any of these events with Jessica?

Lauren Abela 19:04Yes. So my first one similar to justice story was in high school. So before we had met, but you know, just over the summer, we went to the International Leadership Conference.

Jessica Rotolo 19:13We did and that was our first one in person. Yeah, first, where was that? Indiana?

19:21Oh, it's an Indiana

Jessica Rotolo 19:23in the US.

Michael Hingson 19:24I have. I have close friends. So we live in Bloomington. It's beautiful.

Dorlean Rotolo 19:29Believe how stunning it was just loved every minute because Joe and I went as well. Yeah. And we had a mini vacation while they were off working and getting up at six and

Lauren Abela 19:42made sure I was up on time. Mondays but so memorable.

Michael Hingson 19:48This is where I know Best Buddies is is a miracle organization because there's never a day that just go get up at 6am

Michael Hingson 19:58Well, you know that's how actresses are They like to sleep late. Oh,

Michael Hingson 20:01yeah. Yeah, I like to sleep in and then they party till 1111 30 at night so or later.

Michael Hingson 20:10Sleep. So So Jessica, you are doing a lot of different things with acting and art and so on. Why and how did you start all of that? And how young were you when you started that?

Jessica Rotolo 20:24I believe I started this. My art and everything. When I was like four, I think what,

Dorlean Rotolo 20:34John who taught you how to do so Jessica signature has a heart tell them? Yes.

Jessica Rotolo 20:38My heart is Madras signature. And my my aunt, my aunt, Auntie Bev taught me how to make an M first, and then a V at the bottom and connect it and connect them make a heart like a heart. But now, I do it all myself. Yeah, yeah.

Michael Hingson 20:59So what kind of art do you do? Hearts, our hearts.

Jessica Rotolo 21:04Make hearts and then also people, female and male. And

Michael Hingson 21:11what kind of art is it? Is it just drawing or painting or what?

Jessica Rotolo 21:15Painting Manet? Okay,

Dorlean Rotolo 21:19you're one of Jessica's pieces

Michael Hingson 21:20of art? Well, for those who can see the podcast, because a lot of people are going to be listening to this, but if you want to show one, I don't see a problem.

Dorlean Rotolo 21:30Well, you know, the the unique thing about Jessica is Hearts is that she divides them into little squares and colors. And so they're very, very colorful, and, and very

Jessica Rotolo 21:41intricate. I would say it

Dorlean Rotolo 21:44takes her about 40 to 50 hours to do one of

Michael Hingson 21:46her I was just gonna ask that. Yeah, so 50 hours to do one, huh? Are you do you do oil paint or what?

Jessica Rotolo 21:54No acrylic paint acrylic. Okay. Yes. So like on the canvas. Now,

Dorlean Rotolo 21:58when she first started out, it was crayons. It was like a pencil crayon. Yeah. And then I introduced her to the acrylic paint when she got older. And yeah, they're they're a work of art. And she's Yeah, our prime minister has one dancer and mentioned national has one while we gave 24 away to a World Down Syndrome Day event that we did on March 21st. So many people have just because wonderful heart and

Jessica Rotolo 22:26then when I started acting, I believe it was 15 I think with drama away, or your 14 when you thank you. I was 14. And I loved it ever since that

Dorlean Rotolo 22:48you call them your second family. Yeah. And what do you do with drama? Where

Michael Hingson 22:51does the classes tell us about trauma?

Jessica Rotolo 22:54Our drama, winter or is like a group B? This is Mississauga, West Scarborough east, everywhere. Number of classes for drama. There is songwriting, which I love the most. That one is where you write your own songs. As a group as a group. Yes. And then dance. Dancing. I love dancing and dancing. I started when I was 1616.

Dorlean Rotolo 23:34Yeah. But when with drama when you didn't when you were young boy. But how

Jessica Rotolo 23:39old? Were your little? Oh,

Dorlean Rotolo 23:40yeah, you started like with ballet. You were three years old.

Jessica Rotolo 23:44Three years old. I started dancing. Wow.

Michael Hingson 23:47So you've been doing it a while needless to say, which is certainly cool. And you've been dancing. So drama. What kind of drama do you do today?

Jessica Rotolo 24:00Um, we do a lot of plays. Like, um, the last play that we did was the very first play that drama we ever did. Wizard of Oz such

Dorlean Rotolo 24:12as 22 years ago. Yes. And I was

Jessica Rotolo 24:15the what keepers of the West.

Michael Hingson 24:20And did you say the big line? I'll get you my pretty and your little dog too.

Jessica Rotolo 24:26I did not. Really? I was going to and what

Dorlean Rotolo 24:33did you say instead?

Jessica Rotolo 24:35I don't remember.

Dorlean Rotolo 24:37You don't remember your line.

Michael Hingson 24:42Oh, what what was her line?

Jessica Rotolo 24:44Yeah, for God.

Michael Hingson 24:47Don't talk to her about forgetting lines.

Jessica Rotolo 24:51But that was the past play that we just did.

Michael Hingson 24:56You just did that one, huh? Yeah, we

Jessica Rotolo 24:58just did that one. Now.

Michael Hingson 24:59I I'm curious. Are plays like that recorded? Do this? Anybody make videos on them? Are they available?

Jessica Rotolo 25:07Yeah, yes. They're all recorded and you can get them online.

Dorlean Rotolo 25:11Yeah and drama. Wait, drama way.com Yeah. And there because it's everybody, everybody that is in an actor all everybody has special needs. And

Michael Hingson 25:23I'm just gonna say Yeah. Then from verbal to

Dorlean Rotolo 25:25nonverbal. And Danielle stir nod who is the

Michael Hingson 25:29executive producer, director and co founder.

Dorlean Rotolo 25:33She? She has that everybody has an amazing role. And the costumes the props are very fun. believable. Yeah. Her staff. What do you think about the staff have drawn love

Jessica Rotolo 25:45them? Yeah, I miss a couple of them. Because some of them are to move on how to move. Yeah,

Dorlean Rotolo 25:53but it's an incredible organization. Yeah. Yeah. And so last year for drama. Wait, I

Jessica Rotolo 26:02am yeah, I'm also an ambassador for jumbo i Tell

Michael Hingson 26:05me about that. Please.

Jessica Rotolo 26:08I love being an ambassador for jumbo I just because I have these a car for being an ambassador. And I can just give one out to any any for if Danielle

Dorlean Rotolo 26:25needs a spokesperson, or anybody who wants to be entered interviewing about drama, wait, just because asked to represent drama. Wait.

Michael Hingson 26:36So Lauren, how are you and Best Buddies involved with what Jessica is doing with drama? Where are you? Other than obviously supporting? Yeah,

Lauren Abela 26:48so actually really had an amazing time watching just because played the Wizard of Oz this year. It was spectacular. So I really, really enjoyed just showing up supporting, watching, it was really a really nice time because all the laughs and how serious everyone takes their role. Like it was a honestly professional production. Needless to say, so. That's the reason generally, they don't have a direct connection at the moment. But nothing that we can't start today. There's anything I've learned from Jessica is that, you know, if you want to do something, go ahead and do it.

Jessica Rotolo 27:26We did a lot of other plays. And actually, some of them were copied onto DVD guns, instead of like online,

Dorlean Rotolo 27:36and there are other actors or performers that are part of the best buddies. organization as well. Yes, yes. But Best Buddies has been incredible. Especially, you know, the way you can tell them what were you with you and Lauren, the first Canadian?

Jessica Rotolo 27:52Oh, yes, we actually we are the first Canadian buddy best buddy pair to be a to be the best buddies global ambassadors. And our kids, this is the top

Lauren Abela 28:11are the ambassadors I'm wearing a purple collared shirt that they gave us at the International Conference this year, which

Dorlean Rotolo 28:17says Best Buddies ambassador. Yes. And then Jessica, you're wearing which

Jessica Rotolo 28:21shirt? I'm wearing my best buddies Canada talk.

Lauren Abela 28:25And it has the logo in white, or a solid red t shirt.

Michael Hingson 28:29What is the logo look like? If you would learn Oh,

Jessica Rotolo 28:32it's actually the logo is two people putting their arms like this around each other on each other.

Lauren Abela 28:42Like, like

Michael Hingson 28:43this doesn't work very well just to go because most people aren't going to see this. They're going to hear it

Jessica Rotolo 28:48actually I got this talk at the 20th year Leadership Conference.

Michael Hingson 28:57Cool. So for you, Lauren.

Dorlean Rotolo 29:01Might may say the the gentleman that he his name is Keith Haring and he's a contemporary artist in the world and he create created and donated the best buddies logo for Anthony Kennedy Shriver Wow, they weren't went to university together. Uh huh. Huh. So that's who does that develop the logo? Yes.

Michael Hingson 29:25So Lauren, what is your favorite thing about having Jessica as a as a best buddy and a best friend?

Lauren Abela 29:31Do I have to pick just one Michael like really? Possible to

Lauren Abela 29:42certainly the key one that like stood out as soon as we met the first day, it was just your confidence. Yeah. And how you approach life and it's definitely learned a lot from you. Still learning each day is a how you can just Jessica how you can just take on challenges and be like You know what, I deserve to be here and I'm gonna own it, whatever you're doing. If you're standing in front of 100,000 people, you're gonna own it. I believe that. So definitely just Well,

Jessica Rotolo 30:10I actually did something called motion ball. I know I for Special Olympics, Canada, I auditioned with a really. I did an audition tape, which I technically really didn't need to, because I was in already. But I auditioned, like, my little skit, and then I won. And I'm much I didn't plan on. And I got to perform at the guard and find out how many people 2500 2500 People

Michael Hingson 30:55did you start? Yeah.

Jessica Rotolo 30:58And I loved it. I don't get nervous whatsoever.

Dorlean Rotolo 31:04And a very interesting fact. Is that, so Anthony Kennedy Shriver started special started. Best Buddies. Yeah. In like 1989. And his aunt and mother started Special Olympics. Right? So he comes from a fabulous lineage of people that just give to the world. And especially people with special needs. So they're extra special. They have an extra special place in our heart, don't they? Yeah, they really do.

Michael Hingson 31:37Well, I think Lauren, you've probably kind of answered this, but I'm going to ask it anyway. What has Jessica taught you that you can take away as a life lesson? Yes,

Lauren Abela 31:46so something I've been sharing with different high schools I've visited for my school. As that's my new job. After graduating from university, I now go around to different high schools in Ontario, recruiting people for the University of Guelph Humber, and include this part of my speech, because I really want others to have a similar friendship story if they can, if they can join best buddies or start their own chapter. And that's that, you know, how to be accepted for who you are. Because Jessica accepts me for who I am. And how to love with all of your heart. So I really, really appreciate Jessica for those two very big. Well,

Michael Hingson 32:29Ken, I think that's extremely important.

Dorlean Rotolo 32:32What do you say they're a very big hug right now.

Michael Hingson 32:34What do you think? What? What do all of you think that best buddies can teach the world? And how can we get more people to pay attention to the lesson?

Dorlean Rotolo 32:46Well, from a parent's perspective, sure that my child can do anything like anybody else, it may take her a little bit longer, but she can do anything. And she just needs to be given the chance from a job to being a friend. Just give them the opportunity because they deserve it. They're part of our planet. And, and they're, you know, we were made by all made by our you know, who we believe in, if you're, if it's God, it's whoever you believe in, we are all made together to live on this planet, and we each deserve. You know, that opportunity just to live a wonderful, wonderful life and Best Buddies. Absolutely. Does that. It does. Yes.

Michael Hingson 33:31Well, well, Jessica and Lauren, in their various ways are ambassadors. It sounds like so are you do you go out and give speeches and talk to the public? No,

Dorlean Rotolo 33:39no, I don't. I don't

Jessica Rotolo 33:42know. She goes on the documentary. Unbelievable. Me with me. Yeah,

Dorlean Rotolo 33:45yeah. So but no, I don't I just I'm behind the scenes making sure that when just because they're, everything's done for her or we work together to do it. Yeah. You know, I'm, I'm her taxi. I'm her.

Jessica Rotolo 34:00With us now for us. Yeah. Yeah, it was awesome. For us. That's the

Jessica Rotolo 34:04same for worldwide Down Syndrome Day. 2023

Dorlean Rotolo 34:08was yeah, just it was, you know, helped me don't do it for me, help me. Let me let me show you that. I can do it too. I may need help. But just and that's, you know, his World Down Syndrome days. Again, their theme. Yeah, it was wonderful. And

Jessica Rotolo 34:22I was also bullied in the past like, as a little baby and as a little kid and now Best Buddies really helped me make new friends. Yeah. And

Michael Hingson 34:38that's real accepted. That is clearly great and a good thing. And and having a good friend like Lauren is always a valuable thing I think for for anyone, Lauren, you got your degree in psychology. You're going to continue on and go further with that. Yes,

Lauren Abela 34:57I do want to pursue further Education, hopefully become a psychotherapist and and maybe a psychologist down the road. But you know I haven't shared yet but just to come and our friendship influenced my thesis topic thesis research paper. For my fourth year I just wrote it. And that was on Down Syndrome acceptance, changing attitudes through interventions. So it was measuring, quantitatively whether a short video, just sharing more about people with Down syndrome of all different ages, genders in jobs and careers, and how capable they are. And it did find a positive relationship between education and acceptance attitudes. So if there is any advice that I can give people, it's to be open to learning, and to ask questions, and approach people with a positive and open heart. You know, there's enough hate in this world don't spread more from yourself.

Michael Hingson 36:03There's too much hate in this world, actually. But yeah, well, you know, so we've, we've heard a lot about Jessica's leadership and so on, and mom in the background, but you've taken on leadership roles and Best Buddies and elsewhere. Why did you do that? And what what was the inspiration to make that happen?

Lauren Abela 36:22Yeah. Well, I know, I mentioned to you how I joined the student union with my university Ignite. And that was wanting to make clubs more accessible for students to join, seeing the positive impact of Best Buddies on the school. And I just wanted to give back in that way, and like Jessica, Tommy take action, you know, don't wait for someone else to do it. If there's something you want change, and then be that difference you want to see in the world. So that's how I approach these leadership opportunities. And it's certainly, you know, really definitely a credit, Jessica to many of my accomplishments, including the the award that my school gave me. Yes, yeah. Because we were.

Michael Hingson 37:11Now when when you're a best buddy with someone, so Jessica is your best buddy. And and probably more relevant to ask it this way. Do you have more than one best buddy? Or do you stick with one person and devote all your time to that?

Jessica Rotolo 37:27I have lots of money. I have like eight buddies now, since high school.

Michael Hingson 37:39But how many do you have at one time?

Jessica Rotolo 37:42I'm one at a time, one at a time.

Michael Hingson 37:45So Lauren, same for you.

Lauren Abela 37:47Yes. So the beauty of the organization is that for each year or semester, depending on how the chapter organizes it, you are matched with just one person typically hoping, hoping that the numbers do line up. And the goal is to during that one year of commitment, foster friendship to last a lifetime. So that's what happened to Jessica. So

Jessica Rotolo 38:10the mean, yes, but when I was in high school, yes. It was like I had four buddies. From that chapter one

Michael Hingson 38:22each year. Yeah, yes. Yes. Or what?

Dorlean Rotolo 38:27years because you were there for seven years. Yeah.

Jessica Rotolo 38:30Yeah. So I actually know the names as well. Tiffany so Ha, Chloe, Grace, Lauren, Mary Louise from Tmu. And Lisa, and now Priyanka from the Tim you, so?

Michael Hingson 38:49So if you and so the two of you, Lauren and Jessica, are not in the organization's definition. Best Buddies, your best buddies for life anyway. But you have you have different Best Buddies says Best Buddies in the organization. Yes. Yeah.

Lauren Abela 39:07So how it is organized is that students with intellectual or developmental disability are classified as a best buddy. Yeah, and those without an IDD is a pure body. Yes. So those one pure buddy is matched with one best buddy each year. And you know, you can request to be with a person sometimes it really it differs Chapter Two chapter. Yeah, we actually

Jessica Rotolo 39:33requested I requested her to be the the first by developer chapter

Dorlean Rotolo 39:40and the unique thing is Humber is that you have to be a student to be in the in the organization, the chapter, but it Tmu

Jessica Rotolo 39:50Tim, you the buddies don't have to be a student. Yeah. And the pair bonding is have to be a student.

Dorlean Rotolo 39:57Yeah, yeah. And community To be living has come where they are us t Fs okay?

Jessica Rotolo 40:03Yes FST has come in helped us find the bodies and bodies. So

Lauren Abela 40:11different Best Buddies chapters, especially at the university slash college level will partner with the community organization to recruit the best buddies from whereas we at Humber, we're very lucky to have students in the CIC program that we could recruit directly from,

Jessica Rotolo 40:27which I helped with because I was in that program,

Dorlean Rotolo 40:31which has helped you became the largest club and yeah, at the school, didn't you? I

Lauren Abela 40:36want to believe so.

Dorlean Rotolo 40:40You have amazing amount of people come is wonderful. Yes, yeah. Yeah, there's so many great events.

Michael Hingson 40:49So what kind of events? I think we've heard some of the things that the Jessica has done well, but, and obviously, Darlene, but Lauren, what kind of events have you done with this buddies? Or is it sort of similar to what Jessica has already told us?

Lauren Abela 41:04I think the events I just mentioned here are just all of her personal accomplishments. I can't top that, Michael ask someone else.

Michael Hingson 41:15Trying to top it, it's

Dorlean Rotolo 41:17been very shy here, because without Lauren, it was it was a group that, you know, an effort between the two of them, there are partnerships so without each other, that clubs certainly would not have been successful, no as it was, but also the support that best buddies Canada gave them was really wonderful. Deanna is just

Lauren Abela 41:40amazing. And some of the events that Deanna allowed us to participate in include the Ascot, yes. Which was an annual fundraiser so just Can I volunteered with that event? We've gone to the Blue Jays game. Free tickets from Best Buddies, Canada. Yeah, PJs

Dorlean Rotolo 41:56Care Foundation went into the box and sat in the box.

Lauren Abela 41:59Yeah, we're also we've got watch the champions movie and in the feeder in Toronto. Yeah.

Dorlean Rotolo 42:04And that's you've also could, you've had dance evenings at the at the school you've had friendship walks, right? Yeah. Yeah,

Jessica Rotolo 42:16we did. You guys did.

Dorlean Rotolo 42:19Talk to your Yes. That was best, buddy. Yes.

Jessica Rotolo 42:22We also did the friendship dance. But that was my high school. Yeah. And I came in second in a dance off.

Michael Hingson 42:34So Jessica, do you do social media at all? Yes.

Jessica Rotolo 42:40Well, we both do, actually. And what do you do for a zoo?

Michael Hingson 42:43Tell us about that. Hi, sorry, sad again.

Jessica Rotolo 42:48We do Instagram lives together. Tell us about that. It's really fun.

Lauren Abela 42:53Yes, maybe I can share how it started, which came about because of COVID. It was hard to connect with people. And I'm not sure it was a service. But it's Canada that reached out to me. They reached out to us. And they suggested that we go live on their Instagram just sharing a skill. And it became almost a weekly thing for us.

Jessica Rotolo 43:14I believe our first we did a makeup tutorial we

Lauren Abela 43:18do. Yeah. So we've done anywhere from makeup to baking. Cooking. walks outside. Yeah. Fashion. Yeah. And

Jessica Rotolo 43:27also the conference. Yeah,

Lauren Abela 43:31we went live at the conference too. For those that couldn't make it as it was quite far. We wanted to have Sharon in our experience so highly, highly recommend every person to go to a leadership conference at least once in their life. Yeah,

Jessica Rotolo 43:44well, I did three

Dorlean Rotolo 43:46who were some of the people throughout the conference in Indiana. Famous people that you got to meet

Jessica Rotolo 43:52Miss T Miss USA Miss Teen USA, Garin

Jessica Rotolo 43:57flowers? Yes. Getting flowers

Jessica Rotolo 44:01in the Champions cast, the movie of champions, the cast there, but a couple of them our best Windows ambassadors as well. So

Dorlean Rotolo 44:13yeah, yeah, it was one. That was wonderful. You guys had perfect weather.

Jessica Rotolo 44:17Yes. Perfect weather. It was so nice. It was so hot out there. It was.

Michael Hingson 44:25So I'm Darlene, are you strictly behind the scenes? Are you an ambassador for Best Buddies? Or do you take on any kind of roles

Dorlean Rotolo 44:33on behind the scenes Michael?

Michael Hingson 44:36be out in the open at all? Huh?

Michael Hingson 44:38No, I'm behind the scenes. I'm the momager. And yeah, I just make sure that, you know, whatever Jessica needs, you know, from whatever, you know, helping her with what she's going to wear for any event to getting her there safely, making sure she has, you know, nourishment and drinks. Yeah, Let's, I'm just Yeah, strictly behind the scenes which I is for me. One

Jessica Rotolo 45:06time. Enjoyable me. Yeah, why not? That's

Dorlean Rotolo 45:08what we're best buddies. Studies. I'm just when Jessica, when Jessica

Jessica Rotolo 45:15except for my Hayden Park chapter for that she was a part of it as well.

Dorlean Rotolo 45:25Yeah. So what I did with when Jessica was at Hayden Park Secondary School with GE, all girls school in the public, the Toronto District Public School Board.

Jessica Rotolo 45:36Yeah. And we had an attacker with another school UTS UTS. Yeah.

Dorlean Rotolo 45:40And so they were a distance away. So I would drive with our van and I would take two trips for the girls to load into the van and drive them over. So they didn't, because it was too far for them to walk. So it was really nice that they got to go to the other school instead of always having an event at their school or school. Yeah,

Lauren Abela 45:59yeah. Yeah, one thing to jump in, that parents can do, in terms of supporting Best Buddies is actually to advocate to the staff at their school if there isn't a chapter to ask for them to be started one. Yeah. So that's one thing that we want to encourage family members and supporters. So if you know, of a friend or your child who has a disability, and there isn't a best buddy chapter to reach out to the President, the principal, the vice principal, and to see if one can be started. Yeah.

Dorlean Rotolo 46:33And then they just need one of the teachers would be, you know, be the contact with with the school, but it depends if it's at a high school versus a university level. Yeah. Because if it's a university level, did you need a teacher University? No, yeah. No.

Lauren Abela 46:51Students just ourselves. Students.

Jessica Rotolo 46:57In high school, it

Lauren Abela 46:58was an elementary level. So we do our best buddy chapters in elementary as well. Same

Michael Hingson 47:04process in the US and Canada.

Lauren Abela 47:09Well, similar, so you just reach out to your state's supervisor in terms of the States or in Canada, reach out to Best Buddies Canada office, and they will be able to provide support on next steps and how to move forward.

Michael Hingson 47:23So since it's come up, we might as well deal with it if people want to reach out how do they figure out where their local Best Buddies offices are reaching out to their state or whatever? How do they do that?

Jessica Rotolo 47:37You can go online at best buddies.com. Yes, yes.

Lauren Abela 47:43And then there you can find contacts, and what chapters are currently available to be joined. based on your geographic location? Yes.

Lauren Abela 47:56Your work there. Very

Dorlean Rotolo 47:57good. So what is it

Jessica Rotolo 47:59best buy this for? us.org.org?

Michael Hingson 48:02Yeah, that makes sense. This would be a nonprofit. Yeah, yes. Yeah. And do all Best Buddies chapters, pretty much do the same thing with the same kinds of people. So you deal primarily with intellectual disabilities, not all physical disabilities.

Lauren Abela 48:17So there are intersecting disabilities. However, the best buddies main audience are those with intellectual and developmental disabilities. It doesn't exclude anyone, everyone is welcome to join. It just depends on on the the matching system, but there's also the Associate Member position where you don't have to be matched. You can just attend events as you please, to enjoy and the fun and make people meet people across the whole chapters. And that's what

Jessica Rotolo 48:44we are right now.

Michael Hingson 48:48How large is best buddies in Canada now?

Jessica Rotolo 48:55A shop there was in 1993. And that was the York University campus.

Dorlean Rotolo 49:05Yeah, Cam doctor, but how many there are in the in Canada? I really don't know that number.

Jessica Rotolo 49:11Me neither.

Dorlean Rotolo 49:12But it's there's a lot of chapters lots.

Michael Hingson 49:16And you say a started in 1993? Yes. Your,

Jessica Rotolo 49:20your character University was the first ever chapter. It's

Dorlean Rotolo 49:23just north of Toronto. Uh huh.

Lauren Abela 49:25So I can give overall statistics. Best Buddies programs now engage participants in each of the 50. United States. And we're in Canada as well and in over 47 countries impacting over 1.3 million people worldwide. Yeah.

Michael Hingson 49:41So it is pretty substantive, although I don't generally hear much about it, but I'm glad that we've been able to do this, but I haven't really heard a lot about Best Buddies outside of being introduced to Best Buddies, people by Sheldon, which I really am grateful to We'll be able to do, because I like the message you clearly send the message that I think I and other people with disabilities, sin, which is we're as capable as anyone else stop limiting us with your own attitudes and beliefs.

Dorlean Rotolo 50:19And one very interesting fact about what is happening right now with Best Buddies International, it is. They have its National Disability Employment Awareness Month, right. N D. A. M, in India, and is basically to have people you know, just trying to get everybody employed. It's a very big part of the best buddies in the US is to they have wonderful programs. Do

Michael Hingson 50:49you know what the unemployment rate among people with Down syndrome is? No, I don't have that statistic either. Yeah.

Dorlean Rotolo 50:57We have. We have many families whose children or young adults are at home and do not have employment. Like when, as Jessica mentioned, when she was in the last documentary, they helped her get a job at a place called Malabar the costume rental store. And she absolutely loved, loved, loved it. But then COVID happened, it was close down. And then yeah, it was closed for good after that. So she lost her job. He loved it.

Michael Hingson 51:24When he just wanted to go try on costumes.

Jessica Rotolo 51:29Oh, I also I also got to meet a celebrity that came in. He was an actor. From the show victorious. He played back on the show.

Lauren Abela 51:54On the topic of employment, just wanted to quickly mention, I was an ambassador for the Discover ability network. So any viewers listening in from Ontario, this is a free service paid for by the government, for employees with disabilities to connect them to employers looking to hire inclusively. So discoverability network, feel free to check that out later.

Dorlean Rotolo 52:14And Jessica with fcb, Canada, she did a public service announcement. And they one of the things they helped create was a What would you guys create on? Oh,

Jessica Rotolo 52:29we pretty wanted to be employable.

Dorlean Rotolo 52:38employable? Yeah. Yes. And employable. And so they created the first LinkedIn, LinkedIn network for people with Down syndrome.

Michael Hingson 52:46Yes. Ah, now what organization is, again?

52:50FCB. Canada. What

Michael Hingson 52:51is FCB?

52:52It's just one of the advertising agencies in I'm not sure what FCB stands for. I was wondering, yeah, I'll look that up. And then with the Canadian Down Syndrome Society, so it doesn't say FCB it just says FCB. Canada. Yeah. Wonderful, wonderful people. And, yeah, so the employable. So anybody who has Down Syndrome who would like to connect to it, it is a LinkedIn page, specifically for people with Down syndrome. Yes. What does it stand for? Long name? Yeah. Oh, yeah.

Lauren Abela 53:30Full service, integrated marketing and communications agency with offices in Toronto and Montreal? Yeah.

Michael Hingson 53:36Well, there you go. Yeah. Well, that is cool. Well, let me ask, Jessica, what are your long term plans? I mean, so you do art, you do modeling and a number of different things. Do you just want to continue that? Do you have any kind of long term goals in life?

Jessica Rotolo 53:55I do have one

54:03guy in this house. Yeah. That's the problem. You know, Michael is yes, Jessica wants to move out of her house. But you know, it's financially she would never be able to that's the unfortunate thing because she doesn't have the income to be able to move out of her home or home. So she is forced to live with us until, you know, maybe we could while we're trying to get a business going with for Jessica with her with her heart design. And, and her cards are soft. I

Jessica Rotolo 54:33am till five. Yeah. I wouldn't move out. Yeah, I don't live on my own.

Lauren Abela 54:39You know, some people would blame the economy, so I can't really blame the economy.

Dorlean Rotolo 54:44Yeah, it's very expensive to live in Toronto. So champion champions.

Jessica Rotolo 54:49Want to move closer to my work, and your My vigor score for my drama classes around that area. Well,

Michael Hingson 55:00you might, you may find as time goes on, you'll be able to make more of a career out of some of the things you're doing, which would really be exciting. No boys in your life I gather, huh? No,

Lauren Abela 55:11not Yeah, that

Michael Hingson 55:12was a pretty definitive answer.

Jessica Rotolo 55:14I don't want to I don't want any. No, no. No, boy.

Lauren Abela 55:24Are we gonna dance at each other's wedding?

Dorlean Rotolo 55:29They're gonna dance at each other's weddings, but she's got to find a guy first.

Michael Hingson 55:35Seems like a reasonable thing to do. And, you know, I'm, I'm one of those people who's of the opinion there is somebody for everyone. So you just never know, Jessica.

55:44Yeah. You'll never know.

Michael Hingson 55:48We have Well, we've already got Dorlean addressed. I mean, she's got a guy. So that works. Yeah. So Lauren, what about you? What are your sort of long term goals and guys, and all that?

Lauren Abela 55:58Definitely looking into buying a house in a few years, hopefully. Definitely working because I just started working after just graduating this year. So I want to find a salary position. Some pretty good. And again, yeah, do a master's, become a psychotherapist, maybe do some more research. You know, start a family, get married first. Goals and happy and healthy and make a difference in the world?

Michael Hingson 56:28Have you found the right person to get married to yet? Um,

Lauren Abela 56:32I hope so. I think so.

Dorlean Rotolo 56:36He's our favorite.

Michael Hingson 56:37He's a keeper. No, mom, mom blesses. So that's a good start.

Dorlean Rotolo 56:42He's an extraordinary young man. Very nice.

Michael Hingson 56:45So for each of you question, what advice do you want to give to the world? And we've talked a lot about different things. And I know, we've probably addressed some of the issues. But as we kind of bring this to a close, this has been going for a while it's almost an hour, can you believe it? But

Dorlean Rotolo 57:04what kind of what kind of interviewer? What kind

Michael Hingson 57:07of advice and suggestions? Would you like to leave people with what kinds of thoughts? Let's start with Dorlean?

Dorlean Rotolo 57:15Well, My Messages to Young families, when Jessica was in my arms in the hospital, the doctor that came into the room to assess Jessica basically told me that I would grow to love her, which just absolutely broke my heart. Yeah. And so to all the young families, you know, yes, it's a shock at the beginning when you when you're holding your, your child, and you know, the diagnosis, but life will be incredible. We could not ever imagine our life without Jessica, but also the people she has brought to our lives has been a true blessing. It's been a blessing for us, you know, meeting people like Lauren, Peter, and just all of Jessica's friends in the mothers that I've met and fathers, they're just beautiful people. So it'll be okay. That's, that's my message. It'll be okay.

Michael Hingson 58:09Have you ever had the opportunity to go back and see that doctor who said that?

Dorlean Rotolo 58:15No, no, I don't know what I'd say to him. And especially days later, when we went to back to the hospital, and then he used Jessica as a specimen for a fellow doctor to show the fellow Doctor all the signs of that it's a baby with Down syndrome. Basically, I had a break down for a couple of days, because, you know, that's Is this the way my daughter was going to be perceived by the world? And, you know, we certainly have shown that No, she's not. She's a perfect person in our eyes and everybody's eyes that No, sir, yeah, yes, surely so.

Michael Hingson 58:52So I don't, I don't want to do a lot of preaching myself this week. But I will make the comment that we've got to get beyond this idea that disability means lack of ability, because it doesn't mean lack of ability at all. It's a characteristic and everyone has it. But you know, I hear what you're saying. My parents were told that they should send me away when it was discovered that I was blind and the same thing and they rejected that. And I wish more parents would, would take that step to not just go by what science says just because somebody is different. Yeah. 100%. So Jessica, what kind of advice do you have for the world? How do you want to leave people thinking about you this week?

Jessica Rotolo 59:38So I would say be yourself and just don't be afraid to leave your friends.

Michael Hingson 59:47Yeah, yeah. And it's all about, as you said, being yourself and having the courage to be yourself and don't let people talk you into something that isn't true. Yeah, yeah, it is. and

Jessica Rotolo 1:00:00don't let anyone tell you different.

Michael Hingson 1:00:03Oh, yeah. That's the real key, isn't it?

Dorlean Rotolo 1:00:06Yes. You know? Yeah.

Michael Hingson 1:00:10And if you don't know what you want, figure it out and use your best buddies and your friends but figure it out. Because you can certainly want things just like anyone else. Yes.

Dorlean Rotolo 1:00:22And you know, people don't have to be alone. And if you are alone, contact Best Buddies.

Dorlean Rotolo 1:00:27They will help you. You don't have to be alone. It really is an amazing organization. Yeah, right.

Michael Hingson 1:00:33And Lauren, and Lauren, you what kind of thoughts do you want to leave everyone with?

Lauren Abela 1:00:37Yeah. If you can choose to be anything, be kind. That's it and everything that you do. And if you are unsure how to be kind, research, ask questions, you know, and if you're thinking that you want to learn more about Best Buddies, then go to the website, reach out to us on Instagram, we are very happy to share more and and consider things that you can do in your everyday life that are simple, simple things that to spread that kindness and to make that best buddies impact of friendship and inclusion and whatever workplace you're in. Yeah,

Michael Hingson 1:01:15speaking of Instagram, do you guys still do the live Instagram? Yes.

Lauren Abela 1:01:20It's been a few months, maybe a year, but we will do more we promise

Dorlean Rotolo 1:01:25crazier with you guys put on the love means event, World Down Syndrome Day event. Now the documentary him really has been advocating in different areas. Yes, very, very busy. Which is wonderful. So wonderful life.

Michael Hingson 1:01:39Yeah, I want to just go do it. Yeah,

Dorlean Rotolo 1:01:45exactly. Just make that phone call. Well, I

Michael Hingson 1:01:48want to thank all of you for being with us today. On unstoppable mindset. Clearly, you're unstoppable. All three of you, especially as a team, but individually as well. And I want to thank you all for being here. And if you know other people who we ought to bring on as a guest on unstoppable mindset, please let us know. And for all of you listening out there and watching, we would love to hear your thoughts about any other guests that you'd like to have as well as we'd like your thoughts. And I know Jessica, Lauren. And Dorlean would like your thoughts also about this podcast? And actually, let me ask that question. If people want to reach out to you all directly, can they do that? And how would they do that?

Dorlean Rotolo 1:02:28By email, or your Instagram or so

Jessica Rotolo 1:02:31then what

Michael Hingson 1:02:32what is your Instagram address or handle or how do people find you? Mine

Jessica Rotolo 1:02:39is Jessica dot Rotolo 20 and rotala

Michael Hingson 1:02:43was R O T O L O yes. So Jessica dot Rotolo 20.

Lauren Abela 1:02:48Yes. And mine is L A U R E N A B E L A Three.

Michael Hingson 1:02:58So you're the third Loren Abela. Jessica is the 20th Rotolo so

Dorlean Rotolo 1:03:10on Instagram, so everybody have to reach me through Jessica. Yes.

Jessica Rotolo 1:03:15Well, sorry, my email. No,

Dorlean Rotolo 1:03:21I just like it too many emails. No, yeah, they can reach out to Jessica's Instagram. Do

Michael Hingson 1:03:26it on Instagram. That's fine. Well, I hope people will reach out to you guys. We really appreciate it. And I want to thank everyone again for listening. We really appreciate you being here and listening with us. It's been a fun hour. And that's one of the main goals on a stoppable mindset. It's not just for us to have fun, but I hope that all of you listening had fun as well. I'd love to hear your thoughts, please email me at Michael m i c h a e l h i at accessibe A C C E S S I B E.com. Or go to our podcast page www dot Michael hingson H i n g s o n.com/podcast. And wherever you're listening, please give us a five star rating. We value greatly your reviews and we love those five star ratings and really appreciate you giving those to us. So please do so and reach out. We'd love to hear from you. And for Jessica Lauren. And Dorlean. Once again. I want to thank you all for being here with us today.

Lauren Abela 1:04:28Thank you so much. Such a pleasure. Yeah, it

Dorlean Rotolo 1:04:31was truly an honor to be interviewed by you and we really appreciate your time to to let us tell you about readiness buddies. Best organization ever. Yeah. And drop.

Michael Hingson 1:04:45You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com . AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

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In August, 2023 I had the opportunity to meet through LinkedIn Iris Yuning Ye. Iris spent the first 20 years of her life growing up in Northern China. She came to the U.S. to spend her junior college year at the University of California at Berkley. She also spent her senior year here and interned to help make that happen. After returning to China for a bit she came back to the States to work toward her Master’s degree at the University of Michigan. This episode was especially fun for me and I hope it will be the same for you because of Iris’ fervent attitude about being curious and always wanting to learn. Her reoccurring theme through our time on this episode is that people should work to be more curious and understanding of others. Iris will tell you about how she became involved with the Prisoners Literature Project and how that has opened her mind to so many things she never thought about before. Iris is quite engaging, and her words are very thought provoking. I hope you enjoy this episode. Please let me know what you think. Also, feel free to reach out to Iris. About the Guest: Iris Yuning Ye advocates for education inequity for marginalized communities. She had been actively led and involved in marginalized communities education, ranging from post-release inmates data science bootcamp instructor to adaptive and inclusive strength training.

Born and raised in the northern part of China, she experienced the life-changing impact education brought to her. With a pure passion and curiosity of exploring different education systems, she moved from Beijing to Berkeley in college, where she started to be involved in Prisoners Literature Project and Defy Ventures. It was through those years Iris was affirmed with the passion in helping others to achieve more through education. She is now pursuing her Master degree at University of Michigan, focusing on Human-Computer Interaction and pursuing Graduate Teaching Certificate.

As a Project Leader at Prisoners Literature Project and Community Instructor at Defy Ventures, she was fortunate and privileged to have worked with amazing inmates who had much passion in learning new knowledge. She founded data bootcamp that focuses on equipping post-release inmates with data skills that can secure rewarding and recognizing jobs for them. In 2020, she also developed a family education program for Child & Family Services of Northwestern Michigan that engaged 50+ families during Covid. She expanded education horizon to college during graduate school, and she is now a Graduate Student Instructor at University of Michigan. In the Enriching Scholarship 2023 Conference, she was invited as a speaker talking about “bridging the gap between college and career”.

Iris also believes in the power of physical education. She is an NSCA (National Strength and Conditioning Association) Certified Personal Trainer. AdaptX-Certified Inclusive and Adaptive coach. Ways to connect with Iris: LinkedIn profile: https://www.linkedin.com/in/irisyn-ye/ About the Host:Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children’s Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association’s 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.comhttps://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/https://twitter.com/mhingsonhttps://www.youtube.com/user/mhingsonhttps://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ accessiBe Linkshttps://accessibe.com/https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBehttps://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can also subscribe in your favorite podcast app. Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts. Transcription Notes:

Michael Hingson 00:00Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us. Michael Hingson 01:20Time once again for unstoppable mindset where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. What a great way to start a podcast. I'd like to thank you all for listening. I'm Michael Hingson, your host. Today our guest is Iris Yuning Ye who started out life in China and then came to the United States went to Berkeley, which which we can't complain about since I live in California. But now she's at the University of Michigan. So we can have a great discussion about football teams, I suppose. But we'll see. Yeah, but Iris, I want to welcome you to unstoppable mindset. Thank you for taking the time to be here with us. Iris Yuning Ye 02:01Thank you so much. Well, Ohio State and we'll be super happy if you discuss football with us. Right? Michael Hingson 02:07Well, that's fine. Let them suffer. That's okay. My wife was did her master's work at USC. So oh, we have all sorts of different diverging challenges with football, don't we? Right. Iris Yuning Ye 02:22Yeah. We had all of the his enemies are coming together. Yeah. Michael Hingson 02:28makes life fun. Well, yeah. USC has been doing pretty well this year. So far. And Michigan has been doing pretty well. Iris Yuning Ye 02:36We we now know that you're following up on a news. Happy to hear that. Michael Hingson 02:43Well, that is great. Well, tell us a little bit about you growing up and, and all of that and how you ended up over in the US and such love to hear about your growing up in China and all that. Iris Yuning Ye 02:56Sure. Well, I spent 20 years of my life in China. So basically all of my education previously, I started my I live I'm from the northern part of China, which is a city next to Beijing is called tanjun. So I grew up there and I did all of my education there from kindergarten all the way to college. And then in junior year, I got the chance to come to UC Berkeley to study abroad. So I take that I took that I came to UC Berkeley during my junior year. And then after one year in Berkeley, I was fortunate I found a internship which I wanted to figure out if I was the one to stay in my finance major, which is what I did when I was a college. So I stayed at one more year after that study abroad year for a year of internship in the area. And then several, I went back to my home country, I worked there for two years. And then now here I am, I'm currently a graduate student at U mish so this is the whole journey of me in a nutshell. And Michael Hingson 04:05what was your major on your undergraduate major? Iris Yuning Ye 04:08In undergrad I did a pure business pure finance now I'm currently in information science, so user research and software related. Michael Hingson 04:19Ah, that's quite a quite a change, it seems to be going from from one to the other. Iris Yuning Ye 04:29That was and in last a whole story of how the changes came. The finance major was was popular, you know, back into that and 17 and everybody thinks, Oh, if you go to Finance if you go business, you will make a lot of money you will have a well up life. So that was why I chose it. And then from sophomore year, I tried to figure out is that the right thing for me? It turned out to be not really I'm not too happy doing the financial analysis work I did. So I got involved in a startup system in Berkeley utilize that. And then I pivoted to the product software field. And there was what I felt more comfortable than previously. So that was the journey in Oslo in a really short form, you're Michael Hingson 05:22sure you have a really good command of English? Did you learn that in China? Do they emphasize that at all? Or how does that work? Well, Iris Yuning Ye 05:32yeah, I, I would say, I'm personally pretty lucky that I grew up in a city and grew up in a system that is not too demanding of the study the amount of homework you have to do, it was still pretty demanding. But it was a great combination of you explore your interest versus what you have to do to complete in school. So the English classes I took, I took all of the local education system, so I did not go to international school, I did not go to any international such as bootcamp, the local classes of English is basically teacher teaching you what is from textbook, but I try to learn by myself more outside of class. So I try to listen to some materials, ABC News, CNN news, that helped me a lot in getting a foundation of speaking, or just communication, English and mindset in English. I think this is part partially helpful for me, to me, the other part has been beneficial for me is definitely coming to us and to talk to people here and to pick up the dragons or pick up the colloquial expressions, right? Michael Hingson 06:53Well, clearly, overall, you value education very highly. How would you describe your opinion of education? And why do you value it so highly? Iris Yuning Ye 07:05Well, I'm really thankful that you asked this question. I think education as I already introduced my experience a little bit. That means opportunity to me, because of the education and because of the choices I had from a local education system, in where I grew up in China, all the way to Berkeley, and I came back and then come back. So the back and forth is opening a lot of doors for me to explore such as, is finance a great thing for me, is product a great thing for me, and how can I navigate through each of the education stage. And also, I started as a student, and I got the chance to kind of do a graduate student instructor position right now in my school. So from the two aspects coming, it's both is a lifelong learning experience, because it's all stoppable that was what we're discussing right now. And on the other hand, as an instructor, I feel opportunity is asked the unstoppable for those who are benefiting from the education that we can give to them. Michael Hingson 08:19So unstoppable is definitely a term that you would use to describe education and the need for education. Well, Iris Yuning Ye 08:29I totally feel that, and especially when I saw your podcast, the theme as the unstoppable I was like, this is the this is the key word for education, therefore opportunity for students and instructors. Yeah. Michael Hingson 08:50Well, I, I think that the person who stops learning was just not going to go anywhere, we should always try to learn and continue to learn and explore new things and be adventurous. Life's adventure. And all too often, we don't ever view it that way. And we should. It Iris Yuning Ye 09:10is, and education if we, if I personally will think about it really broadly. It's not only about what I learned from class, but what I learned from my graduate school. It's from all aspects of life, such as I'm learning by listening to your podcasts or by talking with you and learning how you can figure it out, such as text reading screen, and I learned by talking to my parents of some life tricks, how you can do your luggage in a faster way. All of those are learnings to me. Michael Hingson 09:48Oh my god, it's an adventure. How? How do you? Well see how do I want to ask this? How would you view education in China as opposed to and the beliefs about education And then China as opposed to what we see in the United States, does that something that's easy to compare or talk about? Iris Yuning Ye 10:09Yeah, I think I can probably talk about it for the whole day. But just pick several pointers currently on the top of my mind. Because I took the first 20 years, almost 20 years of my education in China, I felt I had a wonderful foundation of science and also logical thinking, both from school and both from my family. What probably what we heard from the media and what what we heard from the publication The the education system in Asia is quite demanding, that has a lot of assignments, homework, you have to finish. But on the other side, when I'm looking back to the education on the math methodology, it helped me to building up the repetitive matters and practice a lot. So I still have clear and crystal clear memory of such as what is how to calculate the area of a square. Though all of those math foundation, I can still do it really well. So I think this is really helpful for me, for me in the long term of my, my career or for my science field. And for the American education. I definitely cannot summarize in one or two sentences, but encouraged more in asking questions. This is the first observation I had when it came. asking question is everywhere in the class, when you're sitting there, the teacher will instructor will encourage you to ask questions, they will always check back with the students. Do you have any questions? And what are the what are your thoughts right now? So the encouragement of asking question is also stimulating a sense of discussion in class, which is also unique in the American education system, which I definitely did not try any other countries. But just comparing these two, I think this is unique. Michael Hingson 12:17Interesting, do you think that the educational system in general is more demanding in China than in the US in terms of learning and the work that needs to be done, or that is done? Iris Yuning Ye 12:29It is demanding in different ways. The American education system is also really demanding. I think the China education system is demanding in the repetitive this, you have to work on assignments and is pretty long hours work is after you get back from school such as 5pm you get from school, back from school, you have three to four hours of assignments, you probably need to spend the time on it, because it's due tomorrow. So that is the demanding aspect of the China's education system, versus the US education system is also really demanding. I did have Depression period when I was in junior year, when I was at UC Berkeley, because I was not able to deal well of my classes and the credits. It was demanding because it was hard, it was progressing fast. And it was more independent, you have to figure out all of the questions by yourself, even though the instructor is their office hours there. You need to find your own way to study and to make it through. So it's also super easy to do Monday. Michael Hingson 13:46So it's more structured in a sense in China. But here, what I'm hearing you say is that the demand was that you had to to figure out more things rather than it being in a structured way given to you. Iris Yuning Ye 14:02I agree, this is a great summary and a great, a great summary of the differences. If we take a step back, when I what I what we what I see what I observe in Asia or in China in general, is there's always a expectation on you. After you graduate from college, you have to have a white collar job. This is the expectation that is already a default setting versus in the US is more freestyle. If you go to some career tracks that is not perceived as white collar or just high end is okay. Nobody will judge you. So I think if we take a step back is to is true for the different system and societal expectations. Michael Hingson 14:58Yeah, and I'm not at all saying If one is better or worse than the other, they're different. Same, Iris Yuning Ye 15:02they're just different in different and a society. Michael Hingson 15:07And that's okay. Michael Hingson 15:10Ultimately, the final thing that we need to do is to learn and hopefully people do that. Iris Yuning Ye 15:17Yeah. And what I tried to do and what I realized during my college was that instead of being a student, I can probably be a teacher to some extent. So that was a, that was a moment, a silver lining shining on me that I realized that instead of being a being in the education system, on the side of students, I can also be on the side of teacher. So in junior year, I decided to volunteer in the local community to be an instructor of a inmates reentry bootcamp. That was also a different aspect that I was able to learn from my experience. Michael Hingson 16:06Tell me more about that. That's fascinating. And inmates boot camp, our introductory boot camp. Tell me more about that, if you would, Iris Yuning Ye 16:15for sure. Oh, in my junior year, when I was at Berkeley, I heard there was a organization that was called prisoners literature project, where they in that project, the volunteers tried to gather the books and send back to the balloon mates in the prison based on what they're requesting, so such as some inmates will write letters to us say, I would love to read some fiction books, I will love to read novels. And we will pick the book from our database and from our donation and mail it back to them. So that was how I started to get involved in this community. I also saw several prisoners after they get get out of prison, they came back to our PLP prisoners literature project to help us to do the volunteer. So at that moment, I was thinking, okay, what are the ways can I get involved in this, and I, at that moment, I only need data analysis. So I started a data analysis class for them. And there were about 11 Ma's coming in and learn it, it was super rewarding at the end, because at the beginning, I did not realize the minimum wage issue in the whole image system, the because of the lack of skill sets, and because of the societal pressure on reentry inmates. In 2020, I remember the data, about 60% of them don't even have a job where the employment or in employment rate of us was about 15%. So that was a huge contrast. And because of the program, we started for the re entry and for the data analysis, education, eight out of them were able to get the job in a really decent environment run really decent job setting. So that was when I started in the instructor row on the other side of education. That was the very beginning of my journey. Michael Hingson 18:29Why is the unemployment rates so high? And what do we do to bring it down? Iris Yuning Ye 18:35That's such a great question. I hope that I can be a precedent sometime which is have their problem. Lost Long story short, just several several things I personally observed is first of all, the school says, after prison happened that after the prisoners and inmates have been in prison for some of them 15 years, some of them five years, the world is changing too fast for people to catch up. Even though I'm not in the prison. I'm currently in outside I'm able to access to information, I still feel lagging behind, left behind 1000s of times a day, people talking about how have you used check GPT people talk about have you used any other AI tool before, it's just changing too fast for people to catch up. So the skill sets that are in demand right now are not caught up by the image. So this is the first reason and the second reason is still the stigma and a stereotype on inmates who the employer is my thing. They're not safe to employ or feel they're not a reliable to employ. So they're filtered out from a lot of opportunities. And lastly, is as soon as they're out of the prison or as As they're out of and facing with reentry, it's so overwhelming. Just imagine that you're out, you need to deal with your utilities you need to deal with your family needs to deal with your housing. Everything comes together, a job seeking is not even the priority at the moment. And they need the help to review their lives. So these are the three reasons I personally can see from the data. Michael Hingson 20:26And there aren't really a culturalization classes in the prisons to help it and great people back into society or there just is too much to learn that they just don't have time to do at all. Iris Yuning Ye 20:41What I see in, in California, when I was volunteering in the five ventures and volunteering in the PLP, first of all, is prison in, in a sense of preserving their safety and security. They're still trying to cut down a lot of connections, prisoners through what the outside world, such as they are only when I was mailing back the books, there were certain books not not allowed. So certain genres are not allowed by certain prisons depends on the region and depends on the city, the prison or facility is in. And also they are not allowed to have such as pens in certain prisons, because it's considered as a Yeah, sharp instrument, a weapon potential weapon. Well, that was only a small fraction of all of the restrictions from their life there. So we can only imagine how many other restrictions they have, that is limiting the connections with the world. And also, just as the defy ventures I volunteer for or the PLP, there were nonprofits working on that. It's not scalable, just imagining that we only have six volunteers there. And we can just cover as much as 30 reentry people. Imagine how many people are coming out every single day. The scalability requires more, a second thought or just a reimagining of the current system. How can you Michael Hingson 22:30teach those of us on the outside about all of this and help us become more sensitized to trying to help? Iris Yuning Ye 22:40This is what I've been thinking a lot about these days. So several things I can do right now. So first of all, is there was another nonprofit I got involved with these days, or in the last year it was called impartial, so impartial what we did was, we collected the art work from the previous prison prisoners or inmates, and we sell it to others. So we try to utilize this way to help them to make money. And a lot of the inmates post release inmates, they lie dry, they like writing, they have a lot of creativity, that is not known by others. So utilize this and also it transform their labor or transform their creativity into something profitable is a great way, as far as I see a great way to give them back for their labor for their devotion into the society and also into this world. And the other way I think can be helpful is just voice out as, as for me, I have been an instructor there, I have been an activist there, I can talk with you and that the more audience listening to this podcast will know this issue. And the whenever they see people from the background, they're willing to help are willing to get involved in more instructions, and a more education program that will be wonderful. Michael Hingson 24:18We get so locked into prejudices and so locked into specific ideas that we really don't take it further. I've said for a long time, for example, about people with disabilities that we're not brought into or involved in the conversation, but I can see where what you're talking about with people in the prisons and so on is very much the same way. We we don't really involve them or we don't really choose to have conversations about all that, which limits our knowledge all the more. Iris Yuning Ye 24:53Yeah, I'm also curious about in your community. So what kind of limitations Did you see in the disabled community are able in different ways community that the limitations of how you can voice out and the conversations that you were not able to participate in? Well, Michael Hingson 25:13first of all, I would would reject the concept of Abel in different ways. Ability is ability, we may use different tools or different techniques to accomplish the task. But our abilities are the same, our knowledge is the same. So it's, it's when people talk about different abilities, or differently abled, I think that's such a misnomer and an inappropriate, inappropriate thing, because it isn't true. As I said, it's different techniques, perhaps in different tools than you use. And for you, your disability has been covered up pretty well. That is to say, your light dependent, which I love to talk to people about, every person on this planet has a disability and the disability for most people is that they're light dependent, you don't do well, if suddenly, the power goes out, and you're left in the dark. But with Thomas Edison invented the electric light bulb, and we spending so much time to make sure that people have access to light, pretty much all the time your disability is covered up. But make no mistake, that disability is still there. Does that make you differently abled than than I am? Who is light independent? I think the answer is no. It says that you have different techniques that you use to have access to information like monitors, and light that allows you to see what's going on where I get the information in other ways. But we don't tend to have conversations about a lot of these things. And the prisons and prisoners are in the same situation. Because we fear and we we get very uncomfortable about things that are different than people who are different than we are. And sometimes we build up images that aren't true. And sometimes we just create these fears that we we can't deal with them, because they're not the same as us. And we are better than they are. Iris Yuning Ye 27:13Well, this is the new education I just had today, right? That concept of disabled versus able and with different abilities. This is these are the two ways I heard about people describing this community before. But now it makes totally sense about how we are disability disabled in different ways. I last week, when I was walking in dark, I was not able even able to get my key and my door lock. I was there for five minutes cannot touch it cannot be alone. How can I hit survivor like this? Michael Hingson 27:51Exactly. And the reality is that it's a matter of learning the techniques. And it's a matter of learning how to do it. So you could learn how to find the appropriate place to put your key in the lock. And you could learn to do that by touch. But it's a it's a process. And since that's not normally the way you do it, it becomes a little bit different situation for you. Iris Yuning Ye 28:20Do you feel that we are just educated we just we are just educated or we require different learnings in our life. So such as the prisoners, they might learn a rig require a type of learning every entry, which is currently what I don't need to our what you don't need to such as you need to learn about how to navigate through dark environments from way earlier than I do. So we are just navigating through different learnings and education. And we're Riley moments of our lives. Michael Hingson 28:55I think our learning is something that comes based on our experiences and our environments. So as a blind person, I don't tend to learn how to do things, using light as the main vehicle to give me access to information. I do it in other ways. Now, at the same time, I think it's important that I understand what eyesight is to you and why it's important. And I have no problem with that. Where I think the breakdown comes is when most people have eyesight and they believe that unless you can see, you're less than we are. That's where I think the problem comes. Because most people think that eyesight is the only game in town and if you don't have eyesight, you can't possibly be as good as we are. And And likewise, if you're a person who There's been a prisoner, then clearly there's something wrong with you otherwise, you'd never have been a prisoner. And it, it doesn't make sense to it necessarily have to be that way. Iris Yuning Ye 30:11It connects back to the questions we talked about earlier, that how can we? How can we encourage more people to get involved in this initiative, such as reentry for inmates, helping them to learn the life skills coming back to society? The everybody has a blind spot in their life, such as my blind spot is probably I if I don't talk with you before, I have never got a chance to talk with you, I will never learn that. What is the difference visibility's and the learnings versus people with eyesight versus not. So that was I don't have the empathy for that. And it's the same idea for an education and a prisoners scenario, because people don't try to understand what is the life scenario of the inmates who are currently in the reentry process. So they don't have the empathy and they don't have the ability to comprehend their situation? Michael Hingson 31:15Well, you're right. I would say, though, that the difference is, say between you and any number of other people is, you're open to learning and gaining that empathy. And although you may start out with a particular belief, you are willing to explore alternatives. Whereas there are so many people who aren't. And that's where the challenge comes. I have I've been in situations where someone where a child has come up to me and wanting to talk to me, and the parents have just grabbed the child and take and said, No, don't talk to them. And he might not like it, or, you know, they come up with all sorts of excuses. Or, I'm walking with my guide dog, I remember one time I was in a hotel, and I was walking from the desk, I had to turn down a long corridor, and then go up a little ways and then make another left turn to get to my room. And there were people who are behind me and and they kept saying, how does that dog know where he wants to go? Because the presumption is, I can't possibly know it, since I can't see it. The reality is, the last thing I want is the dog to know, I have to give the dog commands, the dogs job is to make sure that we walk safely. And you know, they said well, how does the dog know when to turn. And here I am giving hand signals and saying left, left Left. And they don't even acknowledge that error. They ignore it. Because that doesn't fit their image of what a blind person is. So the answer is, it's all about more education. It's more discussions, which is why I chose 22 years ago after September 11. To travel around and speak and talk about blindness and talk about lessons we should learn about September 11, and other such things. So that people will learn that we are all on the same planet. And we need to all learn to be a little bit more accepting of those who are different than we are. Iris Yuning Ye 33:21Right, and education. The key one of the keys for education I see is curiosity. As we talked about EuroCity comes in, when there's some contradictory information coming in, how can you piece together? And when there's something against you what you're believing in? Can you be open minded? The Curiosity is taking people a long way. Learning learning is not only about what we are taught right now in class, but also such as I learned that from you that you get your guide dog, a hen hen sign up at turning labs are turning right, well and verbal commands as well. Right, yeah, so all of the commands coming together. Michael Hingson 34:09But the but the issue is that a lot of people don't notice that. They just think it's amazing what this dog does to lead this blind man around. Dogs don't leave a guide. Because it's not the dog's job. The dog's job is to make sure that we walk safe. It's my job to give direction. And there are so many different kinds of situations like that, where we just lock ourselves into one point of view. And don't argue with the facts or don't don't confuse me with the facts. That's not what what I'm used to. And so I'm not going to accept that. And it's it's so unfortunate when that happens, because there's so many people who operate in so many different ways that we just tend not to want to pay attention to that. And that's where getting back into the conversation. So things like this podcast, hopefully people learn something from it in so many different things that you do and so on up, I think we're all teachers. And I know you said earlier, you never thought of yourself being really a teacher, but clearly you are. And you're very much involved in the education field in so many ways. The fact is, I think all of us can and ought to, in some ways, view ourselves as teachers, and that's a good thing. Iris Yuning Ye 35:32I can relate a lot to your September 11th. So after that, you decided to the realization that we are on the same planet, and that we need to learn from each other more. I think that was the same point for me the moment of my life, that because of prisoners literature project, and because of the first ever instructional experience I had, I decided to get involved more of the education field, because I see the opportunity. And I see the unstoppable side from the students learning and also from the teachers aspect. The this will be a much better place if we share the knowledge and the other side is willing to take in. Michael Hingson 36:22How do you think Michael Hingson 36:25most people in the United States would view the educational system and the whole world of China? Iris Yuning Ye 36:35I cannot speak to anyone else. But last time I watched a YouTube video, I saw the comments. I read through the comments there. The comments were i There is pathetic. It's they are losing their childhood, they will be a robot after they get off school. I think everything is depends on how you take it and how you utilize it. So yes, it is pathetic in some way. Because we have to put in longer hours in the study in this single item of life. But on the other hand, the perseverance comes up. And the foundation of science and the foundation of math knowledge comes up. So highly depends on how we take it. So I would say based on what I see from the YouTube comments is more empathetic? Is that the right word to put a from American society? Michael Hingson 37:36very empathetic. Yeah. And that's the point is that, once again, I think there is a lot of evidence to show that maybe things aren't quite that way. But it gets back to we've got to somehow deal with the politics and the government situations because the government's cause a whole lot more problems for all of us on all sides then, than anything else. And the way it really is, as opposed to the way the government says it is or wants it to be or not the same at all. Iris Yuning Ye 38:13And if we bring the whole US education system in into any developing country, it will totally not work. I'm not saying any education system is great, but it's just not gonna work. If you bring this whole free style and also free choice education system to a rural place in a developing country, the student don't know what to choose, they need a foundation of education, of how to survive in life, because their parents are gone. Their parents are in big city. They're living by themselves since very young, they're living with their grandparents, and they're living on the minimum wage such as a year, they only earn several $50 a year. This is their whole income the whole year. How can you just say you should think about your life in a better way, rather than studying only they don't have the privilege to think about that. This is also some some minor factors. I would encourage people to look into the system before creating critiquing them. Yeah. Michael Hingson 39:25I had a conversation some time ago on this podcast with someone who came out of the era of communism in in your well in Eastern Europe and so on. And one of the things that they said was that the the difficulty for most people when communism ended in their country, was that they didn't know how to move forward the communism, the communist regime made all your decisions for you. And in a sense, that's that's kind of what I hear you saying, in some senses about education in China, but not necessarily in the same negative way. But what they said is that the communist regime made all decisions for you. And now, the communist regime has gone. And people have to learn to make decisions for themselves. And it's a whole new experience, and they didn't know how to do it. This Iris Yuning Ye 40:27is really true or in, in the culture, and both in the culture and both in the regime, because it has been there for hundreds of years, is hard to overturn it overnight. If you're asking the students from their cultural background to ask questions in class right now, they're so uncomfortable doing it, and they feel they're doing something wrong, for asking questions or challenging authority is nothing wrong or nothing right is just not fit in the system cannot fit in the system right now. It might take several years, several decades to do it. So this is what I see the difference, and also, why certain system can offer it and you can or you can not always use the Western American way to try to put into the other system work. Michael Hingson 41:23Right? It isn't the same. I am sure that there are parts of the American system that would be of benefit in other environments. But I'm sure also that there are probably parts of other environments that would be invaluable in the American system. Iris Yuning Ye 41:43Yeah, it's all a as our critical thinking process, there's no right or wrong Aza is not black and white is a spectrum that all of us when we gather more information, such as if I have the privilege of knowing that both of the system, I can compare them and see the difference, and you have the knowledge to compare them. And you can also tell the difference. And we exchanged information, which can be a more unbiased and probably a more well, well put way, rather than you only look into one side of opinions rather than the other. Michael Hingson 42:24You could advise young students in any country or in any environment, about education, and so on, what would you what would you advise them to do? Iris Yuning Ye 42:39Curiosity is so important to say that, which Michael Hingson 42:44is why asked. Iris Yuning Ye 42:46Yeah, we already touched base on that. Just several questions ago. I'm always thinking about that these days. Well, one thing I personally really enjoy, is it just one side note outside the question that we were talking about? I what I enjoy, is I reflecting on what I had so far, what I don't have what I enjoy what I don't enjoy. So curiosity has been so important for me that because of curiosity, I want to learn other places, even though I have no correlation or connection with them. I want to know what is happening in your life. If you're from from Bangladesh, what is the culture there? I never been there. I want to learn from you. Because of curiosity, I got to talk to such as students from business school, what is your job? Why do you come? The curiosity leads to inflammation, and inflammation leads to a more well rounded opinion, because you have more unbiased and abundant information. Only abandoned information can lead to unbiased opinion, this is just my take on education. So curiosity is so important is the key. And the second is self reflection. Then what do you enjoy? What do you don't enjoy? The one thing I struggle a lot when I was a student in college was I failed, I did not fail, but I did so bad in my statistics class, and I thought my life was going to end here. I'm losing my GPA, and I'm losing my ranking in the major. But then I realized why do I need to stay in the stat field? If I'm not good at it? I can work on the aspects Am I good at I am good at says it is logical thinking such as strategy. So if I'm able, I ever get a chance to talk about the skill sets and talk about education. I would say curiosity and self reflection are in two key points that I have in mind. Michael Hingson 44:55And I think that goes beyond education. I think that it's Something that we all should do. I, I think one of the greatest things that I've experienced in my life, especially since sometime in the 1990s was the internet because it gave me such access to information as a as a blind person that I didn't have access to before because everything was in print, and print. Although the technology had begun to be available to reprint through things like the original Kurzweil Reading Machine that evolved to better Omni font, Character Recognition over the years, it still was a relatively small way to get access to information, whereas the Internet has just opened so many doors. And since I've always viewed life as an adventure anyway, it just seems to me the internet really helps to allow us to explore things and we need to do it. And we need to keep an open mind. But in our country today, we're just seeing so many people who are locked into opinions. Like with the whole political situation, there's no discussing. There's no room for conversation, which is so scary. Iris Yuning Ye 46:18Right. And technology, as you said, internet started booming in 1990s. And then all the way here. Every single one of us almost in the world is on it. And there are new technologies coming up. One thing I one discussion I heard a lot, both in the media and also in the school is is technology good for education? I think they highly depends on how users still there's no right or wrong, wrong answer is Chad GPT. Great for education. If you use it just for copy pasting, you never learn is a bad education. But if you use it to help you understand difficult concepts, and you have a personalized interpretation of the answer it gives to you is such a great way to study, you don't need too much access to a instructor all the time, you still need the instructor to explain ideas to you. But you can do a lot of self learning through that. So when I heard you talking about Internet that, though, was I resonated a lot in the sense of internet is also connecting us. But if you don't use it right, is wasting your time. Sure. Sure, Michael Hingson 47:36well, and take chat GPT and other large language models and so on that that are now coming out in the hole, what we've been calling artificial intelligence. Not sure it's totally artificial, but but the fact is that, that in reality, it creates challenges somewhat. But I do believe that technology is good for education, I think the chat GPT if used correctly, and I agree with you. But if used correctly can be extremely helpful. I've used it to help write articles. And blog posts what I've done with it, though, I love to to do this with Chet GPT, I'll ask it a question or I'll tell it I want an article about one thing or another. And it provides an answer and I'm not sure I like that one, give it to me again, I've I've done like eight or nine different runs at something. And then I'll take them all. And I will take whatever and choose whatever elements from each one that I want to go in the article, and then add my own spin to it because I know that it has to be my article. And you're right. They don't they don't teach you. They give you things that you can use, but we still have to be the ones to put it together. Iris Yuning Ye 49:01Right and the way I interact with chat, TBD. That was also one way I interact. And the other way is sometimes my writing is really broken. It's not my native language. So there are certain words that I'm not sure what is the better one to the alternative choices. So I ask it, can you please rephrase it for me? A lot. Michael Hingson 49:24And there's nothing wrong with that. Right? Still? Still you do. Right? Iris Yuning Ye 49:31It's still you doing it and you still have to be the one to do it. Somebody was telling me, I think it was actually near Christmas time last year about chat GPT and how students were using it to just write papers and do exams and so on. And one of the things that I said is what's going to happen with all of this or in part what's going to happen is that yes, possibly, you can develop ways for teachers to detect that something was written by chat GPT as opposed to a student, but ultimately isn't really about seeing if people truly have gained the knowledge and what's going to have to happen is that teachers are going to have to start asking more questions of students directly. Or even if they turn a paper in with chat GPT and that that did the work. Make the student defend the paper orally, without reading it without looking at it, defend the paper, you can find out in so many ways whether a student is just cheated and not really done the work or not. Michael Hingson 50:40And we're because of the technology and the education or the whole higher education system and our the college education is revert revolutionising the way they define plagiarism and cheating. And define how to define how to comprehend how the students can comprehend. Instead of just submitting the paper or submitting the assignment, there is hope a whole bunch of the back end changes. I I'm excited about it, and also, I think is super helpful in the higher education system. Michael Hingson 51:20Yeah. And, Michael Hingson 51:23like with anything, we're only at the beginning. Right? Iris Yuning Ye 51:28Just imagine that when the Industrial Revolution was to two centuries ago, we already back then British thought it was the end of the labor efficiency improvement. But that was just the beginning. fastball, were 200 years ago, here we are in zoom. Michael Hingson 51:50One of my favorite examples about people thoughts limiting their imagination, is the story of a gentleman named Roger Bannister. Have you heard of him? Not really. So Roger Bannister always wanted to be the person who would run a mile in less than four minutes. And he was told by everyone, it couldn't be done physically, it couldn't be done, you would die if you went over or ran a mile in under four minutes. And everyone in the in the athletic world just said, this is not something that can be done. Then one day he did it. And I think 1956 56 or 5756 I think he's, he's from from Britain. And he did it. And then what happened? Everyone started to be running the mile. In less than four minutes. We we we talk ourselves into things. Course, I love to tell people that you still haven't convinced me that the world isn't flat, you know? They say, Well, you can look at it from space. And you can say, well, that doesn't help me a bit. So how do you I know that the world isn't? There's an organization called the Flat Earth Society that has many arguments to prove that the world is still flat? Well, you know, fine. All I know is that gravity is keeping me here. And that's a good thing. Iris Yuning Ye 53:18Flat Earther. And there was a funny video, it was flat earther and scientist having a conversation of if Earth is flat, it was really funny. So they say arguing with each other and Flat Earthers failed, scientists are stupid. As scientists were so offended by the stupid word falling on them. We published hundreds of papers, and you say we were stupid. Michael Hingson 53:50Well, publishing doesn't, doesn't solve anything by itself. 53:57Right? So I don't know. I Michael Hingson 54:00don't know all the arguments from the Flat Earthers as to why they say that the world is flat. I really should spend more time researching that just to see what they say. But whatever. I think I think generally we accept that the earth is spherical. It isn't really rounded, spherical, but that's okay. Iris Yuning Ye 54:21Yeah, it has is the curb there. Michael Hingson 54:23Well, that's what they say. That's, that's what some of you say. Anyway. Iris Yuning Ye 54:30Well, gosh, so much. Yeah. Michael Hingson 54:32Oh, it's fun. People, people come up with all sorts of arguments to do everything. So clearly, you value education. And I would say that you would say it changes your life and it's changed your life. Right? Iris Yuning Ye 54:49Definitely. Just my my my life because of the education because of the curiosity and because it was how I came to the other side and part of spending in education, a change and the direction has been never been predictable up to now, which is exciting and which is also exhilarating. Michael Hingson 55:15So what do you want for you to be a great educator? Iris Yuning Ye 55:21Good question. What I see I'm lacking right now, the empathy of, well, I'm biased because the way I learned I tried to use it to teach others. And I think this is the common problem for a lot of people. So the way I am always reminding myself that I try to learn how other people learn. And instead of just using my way to teach the students teach my target audience. So the other one I have in mind is, I always believe the foundation of education. So such as kindergarten and elementary school, the teacher there is actually doing a much harder job than college students college educator, because in kindergarten, just imagine how can you explain one plus one equals two, it is not an easy job. So what I see a better education a better educator, if I can be at some point is I can explain the foundation of the knowledge in a more articulated way. Rather than just take it as a default setting and take it as a for granted that people already know. Michael Hingson 56:40I find it interesting that you talk about the fact that what would make you a great educator is to deal with the things that you lack still, that you're only going to be a great educator when you when you learn more, which is an interesting, and absolutely, it seems to me very appropriate philosophy. Iris Yuning Ye 57:02Right? The more we, the more I learned, the more I realize how much I don't know that that is the the encouragement for me to keep in this field and learn as much as I can. And I think it applies to most of the settings in life that the more you know, you realize, I only know a fraction of this world. What Michael Hingson 57:29do you where do you? Where do you think you will be in five years? What do you see yourself doing? Or how do you see yourself progressing? And and of course, that also leads to more of a discussion about the whole issue of education inequity, to which I know we've talked a lot about in one way or another. But so where do you see yourself in five years, Iris Yuning Ye 57:53I still want to stay in the software product view, which I have been most comfortable with, since I graduated from college. And I think I can I can devote a lot more in the such as education, product ad tech, and I want to be a lecturer of our time, I still haven't figured that out. But this is something I want to do so such as teach a class in college or teach a class in the local community. And also want to keep up with a volunteer in the prisoners community and see what I can still help. Not only help, but also spread the word to 58:29others. I Michael Hingson 58:30gather from what you're saying you see yourself continuing to do that here in the US. Iris Yuning Ye 58:37Yeah, heard of hands on opportunity. So such as how much i i get paid, right? So how how well, the product fits in my personal interest. Michael Hingson 58:50Well, maybe you can take a rocket to Mars and start teaching people up there. Iris Yuning Ye 58:55We can definitely do it. Michael Hingson 58:58You have to learn Martian. Iris Yuning Ye 59:01And I have to learn how to do math, how to teach and how to talk through them. Michael Hingson 59:09Well see another adventure. But you know, I think that that all that you're saying is so great, because it's it still comes back to curiosity and it still comes back to learning. And it's something that we always all should be doing. We should find ways to learn and not just reject things out of hand. Just because we don't believe it. Iris Yuning Ye 59:34This is the theme for today's podcast is curiosity is learn from others. Get rid of what you have so far. Michael Hingson 59:43Yeah. It's the only way to do it. Well, I want to thank you for being here with us. This has been fun. Can people reach out to you and interact with you in any way? How would they do that? They're Iris Yuning Ye 59:56my I'm pretty active on LinkedIn. If you're you think a user, you can find my search my name, you'll find me. Michael Hingson 1:00:04Why don't you spell that for me? Iris Yuning Ye 1:00:08I r i s space? Y u n i n g space Y e. I'm probably the only one you can find. So, yes, you use the search. Um, the other way is I my, my email is iye@umich.edu. So i ye at U M. I C H.edu. Michael Hingson 1:00:31Yeah, better better Michigan than Ohio State you would say right. Go Iris Yuning Ye 1:00:36Go Michigan and go Walgreens. Iris Yuning Ye 1:00:43I have a friend colored there. I Michael Hingson 1:00:45have a friend who just retired from the government a couple of years ago, but he got his advanced degrees in economics from the University of Michigan. We both were at UC Irvine at the same time. But then he went to University of Michigan, he loved to talk about the ongoing rivalry between Michigan and Ohio State during football season, which is always a series of fun stories to hear. This Iris Yuning Ye 1:01:09is what I picked up from the American culture, you should be proud of your football team that if not, you're kicked out. Michael Hingson 1:01:18And I like college football a lot more than professional football. Even though there's more and more money getting into college football, college football is still the sport that people can talk about. And you can can have fun with it from all sides and, and college kids still have a lot of fun with it. Right. Iris Yuning Ye 1:01:38And we are still we're still here. staying strong. You mentioned staying strong. That's it. Michael Hingson 1:01:45Or as we say a UFC fight on. But you know, it's a it's an important thing. Well, Iris young and III, I want to thank you for being here with us. This has been fun. We met on LinkedIn and and I'm glad that we did. And you're going to have to come back in the future and tell us how things are going with you and talk about things you've learned and so on. So let's not let this be the only time you are on unstoppable mindset. Iris Yuning Ye 1:02:12And I wait for it. And I'm so thankful for LinkedIn to connect us together and talk through this podcast and talk through what our value is and talk through the experience for both of us. So thank you so much, Michael. Well, Michael Hingson 1:02:27thank you. This has been fun. And now you get to go have dinner and I want to thank you for listening to us out there. Would love to hear your thoughts. And I'm sure Iris would as well. So we'd love to hear from you. You can email me at Michael m i c h a e l h i at accessiBe A c c e s s i b e.com. You can also go to our podcast page www dot Michael hingson.com and hingson is h i n g s o n so Michael hingson.com/podcast. Wherever you're listening, please give us a five star rating. We value it very highly. I hope people are enjoying all these conversations in these discussions. I know I am and I'm learning a lot. And I can't complain about that one bit because I think Iris just told us it's all about being curious. And it's all about desiring to learn and gain more knowledge. And so I think it's important to do that. Please give us a five star rating. Wherever you're listening to us, we value that. And once more Iris, I want to thank you for being here. And this has been fun and don't be a stranger. Iris Yuning Ye 1:03:32 Thank you Michael. Michael Hingson 1:03:38 You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com . AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

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Driving force indeed. Let me introduce you to Mayme Doumbia, our guest on this episode. I met Mayme through LinkedIn and was fascinated to hear her story. She is an immigrant from Africa. She and her family moved to America when Mayme was 13 years of age. She attended college and then wanted to “give back” and so she joined the military. After serving for four years, she went back to college and, under the guidance of a counselor, pursued a degree in Industrial Organization. Currently, among other things, she is seeking a doctorate in in Industrial and Organizational Psychology.

Mayme is a full-time coach with her own business, Xcelsior Coaching and Consulting. She has clients throughout the world.

She and I have a great and far-ranging conversation talking about everything from what coaches do to how she has been able to successfully coach leaders, teams and others to improve their lives and become better communicators.

About the Guest:

Mayme is the President of Coaches of Color and Culture and the driving force behind Xcelsior Coaching and Consulting. Her mission? To help leaders cultivate sustainable legacies, champion positive workplace cultures, and foster psychological safety—all underpinned by effective organizational practices.

What sets Mayme apart is her distinctive ability to connect with her clients and her rich and diverse cultural background, which provides her with a unique perspective when approaching professional and personal coaching. She's been a soldier, a leader in non-profit organizations, and a seasoned corporate professional. This wealth of experience has given her a unique insight into the many layers of a person's identity and what makes each of us unique.

Mayme's coaching style is all about embracing every facet of who you are, and she firmly believes that every leader has the power to influence change when they discover their "raison d'être" (their reason of being/ purpose). She creates a space for leaders to grow exponentially and achieve truly meaningful results.

On a personal note, Mayme is currently pursuing her Ph.D. in Industrial and Organizational Psychology, specializing in International Business. Her academic foundation in industrial and organizational psychology uniquely positions her to emphasize the development of strong teams, cultivating thriving workplace cultures, and increasing psychological safety.

Beyond her coaching endeavors, Mayme actively contributes to her community through volunteerism on various boards.

Ways to connect with Mayme:

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/maymedoumbia/Instagram & Facebook - @maymedoumbia /@coachesofcolorandcultureWebsites - www.xcelsiorcoaching.com /www.coachesofcolorandculture.comEmail - team@xcelsiorcoaching.com /

About the Host:Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.

Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children’s Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association’s 2012 Hero Dog Awards.

https://michaelhingson.comhttps://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/https://twitter.com/mhingsonhttps://www.youtube.com/user/mhingsonhttps://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/

accessiBe Linkshttps://accessibe.com/https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBehttps://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/

https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/

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Transcription Notes:

Michael Hingson 00:00Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us. Michael Hingson 01:20Well, welcome to another unstoppable mindset podcast episode. Glad you're with us. Today we are going to have a chance to talk to Mayme Doumbia who is a person I find really interesting. She is the president of coaches of color. And she's the main driving force behind the Xcelsior coaching. And we're gonna learn all about that as we go forward. So I'm not going to give anything away. I've read her bio, but I won't cheat and tell you I want her to tell you all about that. Anyway, Mayme, welcome to unstoppable mindset. It's really a great pleasure to have you here. Mayme Doumbia 02:05Thank you, Michael. It's good to be here. Well, Michael Hingson 02:08why don't we start, I'd love to start this way, by you telling us a little bit about kind of the early Mamye growing up and all that sort of stuff that got you to where you are, Mayme Doumbia 02:19oh, the early Mamye. How long do well, whatever Michael Hingson 02:23you choose. So as long as I have computer memory, we're good. Mayme Doumbia 02:31Well, that's good to know. So early Mayme I have, well, I grew up as a child of an immigrant. I came here when I was 13 years old, my parents and I and my sister and siblings we came here do towards back in Africa. So I grew up in a home where it was always loving, it was always active. And what brought me to the Mayme today was actively just paying attention to my surroundings and learning from everyone around me, especially my father and my my brothers, I was always the girl who followed the leaders in the House, or at least that's who who I saw as leaders. So it was always fascinating to me to understand why they made some other decisions. And why was that acceptable in certain circumstances? So as the person who I am today, I think I learn the daring aspects of my father, my brothers, and just learning over time from them about what does it mean to be authentically you and how to show up? Michael Hingson 03:50So you are the only girl? No, Mayme Doumbia 03:52I was not actually the youngest of seven at the time. Michael Hingson 03:59Seven severely siblings all together. Yeah, Mayme Doumbia 04:02that that was that that that beginning stage. We're about 11 now. And I am not the youngest, as much as I love my younger sister. I lost some of those benefits. Michael Hingson 04:20Well, you know, but you have the memories and you can pass it on to her so that seems fair. Mayme Doumbia 04:27Yeah, it's definitely a She's lovely. But Michael Hingson 04:31you moved to the US when you were 13 I did. So you have memories of what it was like in Africa. I guess. I did. Mayme Doumbia 04:39I still do. Michael Hingson 04:41So what what cause the family to move what was kind of the final straw that made you all decide to move or made your parents decide to move you all to America? Mayme Doumbia 04:53So my parents came here, because there was a war. We migrated out from like the I initially to the avocados do tour and where we got to the Abacos. They had a civil war. And that's when our parents had the opportunity to move here as refugees. at a younger age to, I didn't really remember as much the importance of that step until now as an adult, I was just excited for an adventure and just something different. But over time, the realization really dawned on me that they were trying to find a better space and opportunity for their children and for them to be in a safe space. Michael Hingson 05:39So when they came over here, what kind of work did they take up? Mayme Doumbia 05:43My parents really worked into the health care field, it was always a passion of my mother especially. And so she worked in a caregiving homes and taking care of other elders. For me, I wanted to become a doctor at one point, I wanted to become a cardiovascular surgeon, when I initially started this journey, but as an immigrant, a lot of times you probably hear the story. This is something my parents thought I should do, because of course, we want the kids to succeed. So we always look for things that mean success to us. So it was either become a lawyer, because I used to talk and very, I was very challenging in my speech. I always like a good conversation. And it was either that or become a lawyer, do doctor or lawyer. So those were my two options. Michael Hingson 06:43And you went off in different directions, though, didn't you? Mayme Doumbia 06:46Completely, actually started in doing pre med when I went to Portland State University, I thought that was the path for me. I always had a fascination for the psych field, however. So even though I did the pre med, I was always attracted to learning about human behavior. It was something that I couldn't shake up. But I also want it to do business. And I was just in between as a college student, I was just wanting to change my major to this and this and that I just wanted to do everything at once. Because for me, I'm, I'm going to change the world. That was the mindset I had. And so just limiting myself to just being a doctor or a lawyer was very high for me, because then it means doing one thing, at least for how I saw it for the rest of my life, which was something I wasn't ready to do. Michael Hingson 07:42So what did you end up majoring in? I Mayme Doumbia 07:45majored in business. First, I went for Business and Management for my Bachelor's later on, when I went back to school after I left the military, for my masters I wanted to do, I want it to do psychology, but then I spoke to my academic advisor, and she was like, you know, you can eat there's the opportunity for you to do something, you know, take all these things that you like and enjoy and really put it into one field. And she introduced me to the I O field, and industrial organizational psychology. That's how I discovered that view. Michael Hingson 08:26Good counselor, huh? Mayme Doumbia 08:29Actually, it's not. It's not clinical. So it's, um, I Michael Hingson 08:33mean, the counselor. Good advice. Yes, she Mayme Doumbia 08:36did. She was really wonderful. And she was also a coach, and definitely coached me through a lot of those nitty gritty challenges I had trying to figure out what to do next. Michael Hingson 08:48So did you go into the military out of college? Mayme Doumbia 08:52I did, I started my program. So here's the kick back, I went into my associate degree I did in criminal justice. So I joined the military. I wanted to go that route initially. So then I was open to so many opportunities and so many things that could be done. Because the army a lot of times we think the only thing at least from the people I've encounter that wanted to once they were out, they were like, I'm going to the police force, I'm gonna go into law, I'm gonna go into these different things. Because I left the pre med program. The next thing was all right, might just be the lawyer that you know, my parents wanted me to do. So I went into getting an associate in Criminal Justice at that time, but I went back and got my business degree after that. And that's the trajectory that brought me that far. But yes, I did. Do the program for a little bit left. And then came back to complete arrest. Michael Hingson 10:02So how long were you in the military? Mayme Doumbia 10:05I was in my I was there for like four years. Okay. Michael Hingson 10:09And you did that? Because you just thought that would give you a better inroad to go to where you, you wanted to go in terms of a career once you've graduated, once you left it? Oh, Mayme Doumbia 10:21no. So I was a big fan of the army when I was a kid. And I know it's contradictory to what my parents wanted me to do, because I always found that they were the ones that protected me when I need it that protection. It was, you know, the army that help evacuate some of the people that were during the war. So I always wanted to give back, I wanted to do something in return. And that was why I joined the military. It didn't have any motivation towards career anything. Michael Hingson 10:56So what did you do in the military? Mayme Doumbia 10:58I went into logistics. So I was a logistics specialist. And then I was the armor for a couple of years before I left. But I ended up doing so much that sometimes I always ask myself if it if I may have been like one thing. And I think that's that was one thing that I really enjoyed about it. Because there were so many opportunities to do so many things. I was attached to a engineering unit. So I learned a lot about engineering as well. Michael Hingson 11:29So did you travel a great deal in the military? Or were you mainly based in the States? Or what? Mayme Doumbia 11:35I did travel a little bit, but yeah, mainly based in the state. I was stationed in Fort Knox. So I protect a gold. Make sure nobody comes and steal it. Michael Hingson 11:48While I was still there, anyway. Yeah. But then you left and you went back then I guess, into college? Yes. Left. Mayme Doumbia 11:59When I left army, I came back into the corporate world, I started back in the logistic field, because that was what was familiar. After four years of doing that, it, it was good to go back into that. But there was always something telling me there's more that I could do, there's something more that I I aim to do. So I went back to school to see how I can develop myself even more as a leader and as a thought leader, actually, Michael Hingson 12:30pen. So that got you into industrial organization. Mayme Doumbia 12:33It did. Michael Hingson 12:36So you eventually went got through school and did all of that. And then what did you do? Mayme Doumbia 12:44Why was in the program, I want it again, there is a bug in a lot of military folks, they will tell you is to do things to give back. I switch and pivoted into the nonprofit sector while I was in school. And during that I also observe leadership, right? It's always been that thing that I always looked at to see the trajectory. I always told myself, I don't really mind what I do, as long as I have a good leader guiding me. And that was something that I hold held strongly to. So while I was in school, I really looked around, and I thought the nonprofit sector would be that place where I can help and, you know, grow and make a difference in the world. And while I was doing that, again, my counselor also shared with me coaching, I think she I mentioned she coached me, and she was telling me there are opportunities to become a coach and to really help some of these leaders in the spaces that I was in. So that's how I kind of transitioned to that a little bit. Okay, Michael Hingson 14:00so, you, you started going into coaching fairly early in the world then compared to some Mayme Doumbia 14:08I would say and, and often actually, now when I sit back and consider my journey in coaching, I realized that it started very, very early and I didn't have a word for it or I didn't have a very short description for it initially, because I always saw it as you know, I'm just helping somebody out. And I didn't see it as something that is valuable in that I'm actually making an impact in someone's life. It was really brought to my attention because I had soldiers and we had coaching and it definitely organizational culture and professional coaching are different. But I did have that experience where I was coaching and mentoring some of my soldiers so coming out and and doing it professionally. I was really excited about that up tunity. Michael Hingson 15:01So how long ago did you start? professional coaching. Mayme Doumbia 15:06So I officially got certified through the ICF. So I started at least three years prior, but then I got certified in 2017, with CF. And I started learning their coaching model and approaches to coaching. So tell Michael Hingson 15:23me, what is a coach? From your perspective? I love to ask that question, because I think there are a lot of different views as to what a coach is, but you have become certified and so on. So what is a coach, I see Mayme Doumbia 15:38a coach as this ground guide. And I'm not sure if you're familiar with, you know, when you're in the, in the plane, there's this ground guy that is like directing, and showing which way the plane could just pivot or tilt or turn. So I see a coach as that person that is there and carrying that journey with you, and supporting you through that journey, without inserting themselves into it, and not making it about themselves, but making it about you and your growth and your development. Really, it's someone that is really caring about your success without having any stake in it. Michael Hingson 16:27And so, the idea is you're you're essentially, as you said, a guide. Yeah. Which, which certainly makes some sense. So, among other things, as I mentioned earlier, you are the president of coaches of color, is that an organization that was already in existence? Or did you help form that or what Mayme Doumbia 16:51actually helped form that it was a space that was created for coaches like myself, who wanted to connect, and who shared similar backgrounds and challenges. We were looking for some group of people that share those same similar experiences, of course, and it started in 2019, when we were just talking amongst ourselves looking for, you know, mentorships, especially in the coaching field, looking for people that are having these challenges, then really talking it through. And it really changed in 2020, because it became something else. We didn't expect it to be what it was, which was a safe space. coaches were supporting clients, especially during the pandemic, and when Georgia was murdered. And there was nowhere for them to really be taken care of, because they were taking care of everybody else. So while it started, just as a place to learn, it became a place for support, and mindfulness. And we share so much so many experiences, and talked about how we feel and how this experience is impacting us to as individuals, over time it grew into something where we can get trainings and we meet, and we still carry out the initial goal, which was to have a space to support each other, and to create together and really embrace the differences that we have in a in a, in a really impactful way. Michael Hingson 18:31You have a pretty broad experience of everything from being in the military to being a student, a college student and migrant who spent almost 13 years or 13 years in a lot more challenging situations, how is all of that effected your approach to coaching and what you do. Mayme Doumbia 18:54So it definitely taught me the importance of embracing the unique experiences that we all have. It created this holistic approach that I always see people as by embracing their diversity, and just fostering a place where they can feel included. It created something that I didn't even expect well, because I think the common thing that we see is that some people work in this in one place, and they have this vast of experience. And they come in from the workplace. And that was the culture that we were used to. But my experiences have shaped who I am today and I won't trade it for anything. And I create a philosophy which is holistic growth, right? We can be a part of so many things and be the same at the same time. And I think about how, you know I always describe it as a spirit animal like a panther. It's the only animal that is not at least from one family. It comes from different families. But you can only identify by spots, but it's very unique. So a lot of what I've experienced have shift shift my perspective in the world, it created this person who is open minded, who can really see people different from different angle and still see that uniqueness about them. Michael Hingson 20:35Is that something that is taught or projected in the whole certification process through the ICF? Do you think that your experiences are a little bit different? or augment that? How do your experiences just gel with the standard certification process and what the Federation expects out of coaches? Mayme Doumbia 21:00So I think there is a blanket approach to what you know, a coach is, and I probably did not have the description, right. In that regard. I won't know what there is SPECT exactly in terms of my experiences, or if even people share that, because I always see the My experiences are unique to me and everybody else's experiences are unique to them, I'll definitely say that it creates a lens that is different, and it brings about conversations that may not have been discussed, or addressed. Because we always see similar people in the coaching industry or in a coaching bill. But now because we're having these conversations, and really embracing these differences, we're seeing that there are more conversation around the inclusion of everybody, right? It's not just coaching for just one person, or executives, you know, or we're not just coaching for bad behaviors, we're coaching to help people grow and develop. And that in itself is a shift in how people view coaching in general. Michael Hingson 22:23And that, that really makes sense. Because every one is unique, every one is different. Although we we there are a lot of things that we share, and there are a lot of similarities. But I think it is important. And for what I'm hearing you say that it is important to recognize and understand people where they are, and that you oftentimes have to adjust exactly what you do to address the specific needs or the issues of a particular individual. Absolutely. Michael Hingson 22:57So you have had a fair amount of coaching experience. Now. I'd love to hear a few stories about coaching and how you've made a difference in people's lives. Because I think that's obviously ultimately why people seek a coach because they want to be guided and maybe do things in a different way or become better than they are they believe they're going to become better than they are. So what kinds of stories can you tell us. Mayme Doumbia 23:30So I can share maybe two stories about two different leaders that I've coached. One of them was a team leader, and one of them was just organization leader, individual contributor, the individual contributor was someone that was trying to influence and manage up, especially when you don't have direct reports, you are mostly relying on yourself, and be resourceful and having the ability to really move things. And in, especially if you have projects, you have to really work on that. So the individual contributor I helped really see their resources that they had before even get into that position, because I think a lot of leaders found themselves in these places and they feel like they're helpless. They're not able to change minds or really move certain projects the way they should go. So by working and coaching with me, we started identify some of the resources that they already had. And some of the influence that they had that they didn't even realize that it did the connections and networks that they created. So during that was really eye opening for them. They realized that they could actually speak and communicate with different people easier without feeling like they were being Boston or maybe ignored or felt like nothing was moving on the needle. The other one was a team leader who was really working towards creating a space for his team to be a very effective team. Well, while working with them, the team dynamic was really wonky a little bit. There was not much communication, a lot of backstabbing. And we were working around why that was and always try to find a root causes when it comes to coaching leaders, like what's happening. And we realized that it was a lot of lack of clarity, and expectations and goals. So once we start creating things like that, in our coaching, it starts seeing that the team was working together more, they shifted their perspective, because they were trying to work towards something instead of working against each other. And over time, they built like collaboration, it became more productive. And they felt more satisfied, at least from the survey that they shared, there was more transformations happening in that. Michael Hingson 26:08So how do you judge or determine that you had success in both of those two situations? Mayme Doumbia 26:19Based on my client perception, because success is based on what they see success as. So I always ask them, and make sure that we have a clear goal. In the beginning, we have clear expectations. And we have a clear understanding of what success looks like, for the sessions and the arrangement. Once we do we already when we work towards it, we start to gauge are we getting closer? Are we getting farther away? Are we working towards anything? So based on those metrics that we established in the beginning of our coaching agreement, we can determine that we've achieved what we came to do. Michael Hingson 27:07So you, you believe that you've been pretty successful, being able to guide people and help them make a difference? Needless to say? Mayme Doumbia 27:17Absolutely. Michael Hingson 27:19So I know from everything that you're describing the you take a pretty holistic approach to coaching in terms of dealing with the individual, their identity, and all of their specific attributes, and so on. So what I'm curious about is, how does this perspective deal with and benefit the leaders in the people that you do, coach? And how do you actually create a nurturing environment to make the successes happen that you do. Mayme Doumbia 27:56So I see a holistic, my holistic approach is just really seeing the person in every aspect of who they are, right. So a lot of people often separate themselves from the personal and the professional, because they have this, I guess, concept of dual personality where somebody else that work and I'm somebody else at home, which is true to some degree. But in a lot of ways you are the same person going into those spaces. And when you're addressing someone in those spaces is understanding that you can wear different hats, but you cannot be different people. And when you understand so for example, if someone is tired at work, or really short with others, because they're tired from home, they're trickling down into each other. When you in a remote work, you're working from home now. So there's like lack of separations to even talk about now, when you're seeing working from home and working maybe six to 12 hours a day, depending on the organization. There's the barrier has his lesson, there's less and less barrier between who you are at work and who you are at home. And we try to really implement how to work around that how to really find your identity, your values, the influences and life experiences in that and really shaped the person you want to be. So you're consistently consistent across the board and it brings us to the authentic You're right. You can be authentic at work and authentic at home. But if you're not really able to show up in those two spaces, you're always going to be switching which can be very exhausting, at least for a lot of leaders. And how we help you is really to understand and you have the ability to be authentically you. Of course at work, it will be a professional you, that's your professional hat. And at home is the personal you, and that's your personal hat. But you are the same person that is showing up in those spaces. How Michael Hingson 30:18do you? Well, let me do it this way? Have you ever had any situations where as you're trying to establish a relationship and work with someone, and doing the things that you do that it hasn't worked out that somebody just couldn't relate to the coaching techniques and so on that you're using? Mayme Doumbia 30:38Yes, it's rare, because I always look at the person from what their values are, and not really impose on things. But I had a few members and who did not identify with it, I also find that there are people that are not ready to really tap into some of the experiences or goals that they have in that way. And that could be that maybe they're just not willing to, or maybe I'm just not the right coach for them. And I can totally accept that. I do not have the answer for it at all. In fact, I'm not the answer for it all. I am just there as a guide and supporting the growth and not trying to tell people what to do or how to do it. So I do agree that I would not be for everybody. What Michael Hingson 31:37do you do when you discover that you're just not right for some person? Mayme Doumbia 31:41We have a conversation around that. We have a conversation around what they really want? And how do they want to see success right, in back to establishing what success look like? So is it something that we're doing differently? That does not resonate? Or is it that we're not getting to the success that you're wanting? So clarity definitely is important. In this case, if the client is that clear, sometimes it's kind of hard to guide them for anything. And overtime, sometimes we discover that clarity that they're looking for through coaching. But sometimes everyone is not patient enough to get to that point. So when your spec result before putting the work in sometimes it's very difficult to help Michael Hingson 32:33people, it seems to me oftentimes have a lot of difficulty in doing introspection and really looking at themselves. And they don't want to take the time to do that. And it's difficult sometimes I would think to get people to really look at themselves in a in a friendly way, because you obviously aren't trying to threaten people. And people shouldn't take self analysis as as a threat but but a thing that is valuable and very helpful to do. When you find people who are resistive to doing that, how do you get them to think about? Well, I really should maybe look at what I do, maybe there are things I can learn from what I've done in the past and improve it. Mayme Doumbia 33:27I always talk I actually really enjoy taking the positive intelligence assessment, right. And it's called the nine ways we sabotage ourselves. And it's a very fascinating awareness type of assessment. I encourage most of my clients to take it before we have a conversation and we talk about their view of strengths. A lot of times, starting a conversation that way always bring us to heart this is surprising, or this is not true, or this is really accurate. But it's helpful to see it. We can have a conversations around those things. And there's I think, in terms of self awareness is really important to also know when to really have those conversations. Not everyone is open to having a conversation around that, especially if they don't feel like it's relevant to them. So I usually I have a group of coaches on again, coaches of color and culture is a is a group of amazing coaches that I can refer to and always go back to and if the client feel comfortable to work with another coach, definitely refer them to that coach and be open to have that conversation. Because again, it's not about me, it's about their growth and their development and whatever that's gonna help them definitely be open to like hearing what they think and how they feel. And like pushing them or directing them to the right sources. Michael Hingson 35:14Have you had some people in your life that you regard as really great mentors who help you shape what you do and why you do it the way you do? Mayme Doumbia 35:27Yes, so my first mentor was my father. He just sitting down and listening, my dad was one of those people that will be less to talk because he listens to every, like, side of the story to really understand what he's going to say. And sometimes it's just him listening, that was really helpful. The second mentor that I discovered was Myles Munroe. And he's been a very instrumental person in my life, he's of late, but I absolutely learned so many things from him in terms of just leadership, being a change agent, and just being a person in the world, really, his approach to leadership was very insightful, because he sees that we, at least from his doctrine was like a lot of, we can all be leaders in the places that we are in, it's just a matter of our mindset around it. And in recent years, since I moved to Texas, here, I've had some really amazing people that have been, you know, guiding me, someone like Lisa Aang, she's a diversity coach. And she's been a really, really instrumental person to my move here and helping me navigate the land of Texas, moving from Portland, and Dylan, as a whole has also been very, very instrumental in my growth as a coach. So those are the people that I really admire, I see the work and the fruits of the hard work that they put into this industry and how they are shaping it in their own way. Michael Hingson 37:15So you've I think, like most of us, definitely had a lot of what you do shave by other people. And that's, that's good. We, we should be open to that. When you're coaching people, you talk a lot about psychological safety and creating a safe environment. How do you do that? And how do you know that you're having some success at making that happen in any given case, Mayme Doumbia 37:43I always tend to be more of a listener than the speaker, even if I don't speak a lot. And I think a lot of times, it's viewed as you have no opinion. But most people are not wanting you to have a solution at all times, they just want you to have an empathetic year, and to just listen. So in my coaching, always, always take time to really create that space. By listening by offering my you know, my space as like, this is your space, right? This is where you you, I want you to feel safe. So whatever you choose to share and discuss here will be here and is not going to go anywhere. And I want you to know that I'm listening and that I will be empathetic. But I'll also be direct with you if you want that directness. So it's an ongoing process, because it's never perfect yet, right? It's something that I just got to keep working on, and hope that the people that come into that space feel that way. Because that's the environment that I am trying to create is to really make them know that this is where they are. And Michael Hingson 39:01so what happens in Xcelsior coaching stays, and Xcelsior coaching, yes. To say the least. Typically, how long do you coach someone for? Do you have people you've been coaching for years that they just continue to want to come in and have that interaction with you and that they value it? Or does it usually end up being only for a few weeks or a few months or what? Mayme Doumbia 39:30So I've had coaching clients that I've worked with for six to month to a year. And I have members that will always come back I actually have another member that I'm about to work with again who I've coached a few years back and you're like, Hey, I'm in another position. We work towards that one before and now I'm trying to go to the next one and I need your support on this. So I will Want us to start our payment again. So it varies, it's not always a straight path. Because most of the people I work with are always in contact with me always send me messages about some of the changes that they are going through and how they want to work with me again, in how to really create a clear path forward. And I have people that just stay in touch with me and became my referral. And they would tell me, like, Hey, I know someone who would really benefit from your coaching, I think that it was so impactful, it changed my life. And I really believe that this is useful for them as well. So it varies a lot in depending on the individual and their space in life and what they see as beneficial. Michael Hingson 40:50Do you typically do coaching in person? Or do you do a lot of it virtually? Mayme Doumbia 40:56A lot of my coaching has been virtual. Yes. So before the pandemic, it was in person, I did a lot of facilitation around mindfulness. And then the pandemic started. And everything, it felt like a pause for at least a year there because a lot of in person was not happening. So we all had to like adjust to the virtual world and talk to people in different spaces, like go Google needs and teams and zoom, like you're not talking right now. Michael Hingson 41:34Do you find that it's worked out pretty well to do virtual stuff? I mean, you're right, the pandemic made a big difference in a lot of the ways we do stuff. And so do you find that doing a lot of coaching virtually, still continues? And the people accept that? Do they want to get back to the way it was before? Is hybrid really working? Mayme Doumbia 42:02I definitely believe that depends on who you ask, right? There is still that space of we're all figuring it out. We're all trying to see what works better, was more effective and more efficient. I have a lot more clients virtual than I have in person, because most of my clients at least, about 80% are overseas or in Europe or something. Well, yeah. So there's not, there's no opportunity to really meet them in person unless I traveled to them or they traveled to me, the clients that are here will prefer maybe once or twice in person meetup. But again, Texas is such a big space that when you talk about commute time, and you consider all that driving to just meet for an hour is very valuable to some members. But others are like, I think I just saved that commute time. So I can prepare for my next meeting, since we're still figuring out what that hybrid work place look like for them. So it varies and depends on the client, I always try to accommodate especially if my clients want to meet in person because I also know the importance of in person contact and really having someone right there in front of you to talk to Michael Hingson 43:31how did you get so many clients overseas? That's intriguing. Um, Mayme Doumbia 43:37so social media. And also working. So I started working for different platforms like you know, better up at first, and started saying that a lot of the clients were really just phenomenal people that were for various companies that are not located in state. And I also started getting in touch with people that knew people that were not here. And when you have a network, especially places like LinkedIn, that connects everyone from around the world, it becomes a norm to really have someone that maybe worked here for like two years and then got transferred overseas, and now they have a team that they're mentoring and they're bringing you along to help their team. So it is such a global world that we live in that is becoming a norm for coaching at least to have clients all over the place. Michael Hingson 44:42Yeah, the world is definitely becoming smaller and everyone is closer together in a lot of ways in the whole electronic media process, the internet and so on has made it a lot easier to be more deeply involved with people in other countries or parts of the World hesitant. Mayme Doumbia 45:01Absolutely, and definitely became smaller in that regard. Michael Hingson 45:07Well, so, you've been doing Xcelsior coaching for a while. What other kinds of activities are you involved in? In addition to coaching? Mayme Doumbia 45:20I am a big learner. So I'm studying, I went back again to school I have been asked by my family is this the last time? I think this be the last time. But I'm going back, I went back for my doctor in industrial organizational psychology. And I also been serving on community boards supporting, you know, again, coaching in the ICF. I'm on the committee for DNI. I am on a community board for African supporting Africans. I'm on a lot of boards, just trying to give back. I think, going back to what I said earlier about veterans and military folks, always wanting to give back always in the heart of service and wanting to support and help as much as we can. So that's always been my passion and just changing the world that way. That's, that's what I hope to do. Michael Hingson 46:22Is the board word take a lot of time. Mayme Doumbia 46:26It does. It does. But I think it's time worth it. At least for me, it brings me joy. I think one of the things that I always look for to do is some I look for things that brings me energy, and service definitely brings me energy, it gives me joy to see that I've impacted in some way. Michael Hingson 46:53Well, you can't really kind of argue with that. So how do which is fair, so you're serving on a lot of boards and doing the things you do? How does that affect or shape your coaching practice? Mayme Doumbia 47:08I think in in Back to the holistic aspect, I am that same person, right? I am that person I love to give. So in my coaching, I am creating that space for people to really grow. But I'm also surveying and leading the way I expect the leaders to do. So in my projects, how I view leadership is someone that is leading by example. And not expecting people to do something like do as a say, and not as I do type of leadership. So I often take that space and that step to go out of my way, sometimes now always. Because I think there needs to be a healthy boundary in how you're serving, and how much you're giving. So you're not draining yourself. But I always see my approach to leading as doing the work and being in front of it, and showing that it can be done, and not just expecting others to do it. So in how it impact that I think it just bring it full circle as who I am as a person as an individual. And what I love to do. Michael Hingson 48:25Well, you said that you like to be a learner, and you are always valuing learning. So being on a lot of boards and associating with people in a lot of different environments, and also through your own coaching experiences. Do you? Do you find you learn a lot? Do you learn a lot from your clients? Do you learn a lot from the different kinds of board things that positions that you hold that, that down the line to help to shape what you do in terms of coaching and how you deal with people? Mayme Doumbia 48:57Absolutely, I'm always learning from everyone around me, I'm learning from, you know, from these experiences, because I can see, I take the knowledge that I've learned previously to bring to these spaces and then learn from it, to take the other spaces that would need that learning opportunity. So for like the board, for example. And being in those spaces, I try to keep an open mind because that's the only way you can learn. And in coaching, I have to you know, keep an open mind because that's the only way I can learn from my clients. The only way you just have to come up with a curious with curiosity. And I'm always curious, which is why I found that, you know, coaching has been such a good calling for me, because I'm always curious and clarify the values and the goals. And when those things align. I definitely think that there is so much opposite can add for everyone, not just me to grow and learn. Because the end goal for me is that we come out of there knowing something about each other, knowing something about the purpose that we brought there, and knowing something about the people we serve. Michael Hingson 50:17And are you with that? So tell me a little bit more about coaches of color. As an organization, what, what kinds of things do you think that it is affecting, and just just tell us more about that? It's a fascinating, I've never heard of it, I would love to learn more. Mayme Doumbia 50:37Okay, so coaches of color has, you know, again, I said that we working towards connecting, we want people to come in, you know, coaches and organizations to come in connecting and learning, again, back to the learning aspect, because the coaching field has been hasn't been dominated with a lot of people of color. And now you're seeing this more and more, but we want the workplace to reflect some of the people that you know, we have, so if your workplace is reflecting diverse and inclusive group, you want coaches that reflect that you want people that have those backgrounds and experiences to really help your employees, you want them to be there to really give you that perspective that maybe you may not have or did not understand. So it's creating that, like closing that gap, I would say, where, you know, culture and and I guess, inclusion just meet in a way, because we have organization culture, and you have, you know, the coaching culture. But what if you could merge those two to create a more impactful organization and a more impactful coaching or landscape. So that's what we're hoping to do. We offer trainings, quarterly for our coaches. And we also part try to partner with organizations that are looking for opportunities to connect with coaches of color and culture to support their employees. So it's twofold. And actually October 20, we have our first virtual conference. And we're going to talk about the integration of diversity in coaching to really create more awareness around just bringing those two things together and really shaping the world that we're trying to create together. So Michael Hingson 52:43so how large Do you think that conference will be? I'm sorry, how large Do you think that conference will be? How many people will be coming to that? Mayme Doumbia 52:52I am not sure. So I try not to look at the numbers. And we're looking for, like quality over quantity. To be honest, we don't want people showing up just because it feels like this would be great for whatever reason, we want you to show up because you're open to learn, you're open to contribute, and you're open to really becoming a change agent. So I've actually not looked at the numbers, what we project is to have at least, you know, 100 people there. It's our first conference, and we really hope to see more people show up. But people that are really interested in seeing the landscape change, and those that are change agents, and coaches of color and culture is not an exclusive group. We welcome everyone and allies. But we want to make sure that people know that we want to support the underrepresented groups, the underdogs in the field, if you will. Michael Hingson 53:54You think that that will involve not only people of color and coaches of color and culture, but do you anticipate trying to involve other groups like persons with disabilities and those sorts of things? Mayme Doumbia 54:09Absolutely. So the reason we call it coaches of color and culture is the culture poor aspect of it brings everyone right it's it's creating what what is it your culture because I have a disability is one that is invisible. But I consider that even though I'm a person of color, I am also a person of culture, not just because I am not, you know, I have a different background, but because I have different experiences that I bring to the table so it is inclusive to everybody in that culture aspect. Michael Hingson 54:46What kind of advice would you give to someone who is interested in coaching and wants to learn more about it and and become successful? What would you advise them? Mayme Doumbia 54:58I'll say In order to do that, you want to start by clarifying your values and your goals. A lot of times, we don't take the time to really see what our real values are, and what are we trying to accomplish. And I think when you can create that you can create a plan that aligns with your action that can connect that action to your vision. And lastly, like, just really find a support group, find a network, be persistent, find mentors, and find I call them Destiny activators, right. Those are people that are just there to support your dream, and that are there to really increase, you know, whatever you're lacking in terms of capacity. So they're there to support you. So be persistent in pursuing your aspiration. There's no one size fits all, I think, in terms of just the world we're living in, is so diverse and always shifting that there is nothing that I will do that maybe easily replicate it, or someone else would do it that you can just replicate, it is good to learn from others. But it's also important to really find what makes you unique, and really push for it and make a difference, the way you can often fit authentically, if you're looking me quickly, without really trying to be somebody else. Michael Hingson 56:26Somebody wants to become a certified coach, how do they do that? At Mayme Doumbia 56:29the pens, I seen coaches that are not certified in the ICF, but have other certifications. So I have two certifications. I have the certification with ICF. And I also have a certification with the emcc global, which is the European supervision mentorship program, and I am a team coach. I'm a certified team coach through the emcc global, but I have my professional certificate certified coach certificate from the ICF. So I will say talk to other coaches first, talk to people that already have the certification you're interested in, ask them about the passive take in there's so many different coaching schools and see if this is something you really want to do, or is it something that you feel called to do? And like ask them for their advice or mentorship? A lot of times I think, we get information or we just run with it. Sometimes it's good to ask for guidance. And if you can get that you might have a better idea and be more prepared going into the coaching industry. Because unfortunately, one thing you don't learn in those spaces it how is how to run a business. So unless you're trying to be an internal coach, you might want to start asking more questions around how people start it as a business and see if this is something you want to do before jumping into it. And I'll say started looking into the ICF the MCC global and talking to people that are already in the field. And ICF stands for the International coaching Federation. Okay. Michael Hingson 58:12If people want to reach out to you and learn more about what you do, and maybe explore working with you as their coach, how do they do that? Mayme Doumbia 58:22You can definitely find me on LinkedIn, Mayme Doumbia.com on LinkedIn and I have my website Xcelsior coaching.com. Could you spell that please? Xcelsior. So, play on word there. I took out the e so is X C E L S I O R, so Excelsior without the E. Michael Hingson 58:51So and then Xcelsior coaching. Mayme Doumbia 58:55And the best way, the fastest way at least is to email me at teams at Xcelsior X C E L S I O R coaching.com Michael Hingson 59:10team at Xcelsior coaching.com. Well, great, well, I hope people will reach out you clearly have been very successful, you are doing good work. And I think that it's important that that be recognized. And I hope that that people will find ways to to explore working with you if they need to coach. So you all know how to do that now and I hope that you will I want to thank you for being here with us, me me and I also want to thank you for listening out there. Wherever you are. I'd love to hear from you love your thoughts about today's podcast. Of course, as I asked people regularly and will continue to do so please give us a five star rating wherever you are listening to unstoppable mindset. We appreciate it. If you'd like to reach out to me I'd love to hear your thoughts about Today and just in general about our podcasts, please feel free to email me at Michaelhi m i c h a e l h i had accessiBe A c c e s s i b e.com Or go to our website www dot Michael hingson.com/podcast. Michael Hingson is m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. So www dot Michael hingson.com/podcast. But again, please give us a five star rating. We appreciate it. And one last time, Mayme, I want to really thank you for being here. This has been most informative, and I think very instructive all the way around. I hope that that people learned a lot from what we discussed today and that it will be good for them going forward. So Mayme Doumbia 1:00:46much for having me. I really appreciate it and I enjoyed our conversation as well. Michael Hingson 1:00:57You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com . AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

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Scrum, you ask. Are we talking here about Rugby? Not at all. My guest on this episode is Rodrigo Quezada. Rod says he grew up with a pretty normal childhood until, during college, he was in a serious automobile accident that effected his ability to easily draw on childhood memories. I leave it to Rod to tell you about this.

He went to college and graduated after which he entered the workforce. In 2015 Rod discovered a book entitled “Scrum, The Art of Doing Twice the Work in Half the Time” by Jeff Sutherland. I will not attempt here to describe what “Scrum” is. Rod is much more articulate about it than I. What I will say is that the art of Scrum takes creating and enabling teamwork to a new level. Scrum is all about teams working as cohesive units. I personally can see why one can say that using the Scrum model well may be a cause for more efficiency.

This episode is to me quite engaging and worth the hearing. I think you will learn more about teamwork and perhaps you will discover a way to enhance how you work on projects.

About the Guest:

My name is Rodrigo Quezada from Mexico and I currently work as Principal Project Management at AT&T.

During high school had a near-death experience at a car accident that compressed most of my childhood memories. They are there and can be retrieved by external triggers yet not by myself. Overall have awareness that had a childhood and within normal parameters as far as I can remember.

Started my career path at the century start in procurement and was having a good time yet by 2015 a pivotal event happened when I ran across a book by Jeff Sutherland called Scrum, The Art of Doing Twice the Work in Half the Time.

As failing at implementing traveled to the USA for training by Scrum.org and a new career path emerged. Implemented in the most empiric and lean way possible which aligns with the pillar of the Scrum system. Began a new undergraduate as computer engineering which was followed by a masters in data science and now a Phd in progress along with several professional certifications and a lot of learning.

At this point in time would like to share this out as find it very beneficial to both individuals and organizations as, per the Scrum guide definition, it aims at “adaptive solutions for complex problems”.

Ways to connect with Rodrigo:

Linkedin:www.linkedin.com/in/rodrigoquezadareyes

About the Host:Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.

Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children’s Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association’s 2012 Hero Dog Awards.

https://michaelhingson.comhttps://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/https://twitter.com/mhingsonhttps://www.youtube.com/user/mhingsonhttps://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/

accessiBe Linkshttps://accessibe.com/https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBehttps://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/

https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/

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Transcription Notes

Michael Hingson 00:00Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us. Michael Hingson 01:21Welcome to another episode of unstoppable mindset. Thanks for being here. And for listening. We really appreciate it. Today, we get to introduce and interview Rodrigo Quezada. But we're gonna call him Rod and he said, That's okay. He asked me if I preferred Mike or Michael. And I said absolutely. So he's going to call me Mike. And I'm going to call him Rod. And I guess that works out pretty well. Rod has an interesting story to tell both about life in in his childhood and what he's doing now. And he's going to talk to us a lot about Scrum. And I'm not talking about rugby, necessarily. But we'll get to that. Anyway. Rod, I want to welcome you to and thank you for joining us here on unstoppable mindset. Rodrigo Quezada 02:05Thank you so much for inviting me, Mike. I'm very excited to be here, I think this opportunity to be able to share this out with with the team at large. I'm super excited about it. So then again, thank you. Well, absolutely. Michael Hingson 02:19And you're You're most welcome. And we're really glad that you're here. Rod, by the way, is in Mexico City. So I get to learn new things and refine old things every day. So Mexico City is an hour ahead of us. So it is about 1134 in the morning where I am and it's 12:34pm where he is so he's he's doing this during lunch. So I don't know whether you had lunch? Or we'll have to get through this. So you can go eat lunch, but we'll get there. Sure. Well, let's start by kind of going back and talking like I love to do about you growing up the early rod. So tell us about childhood and kind of what your experiences were like and and a little bit about you growing up? Rodrigo Quezada 03:09Absolutely. I think of myself as a fairly normal childhood. I however, during college, I had a car accident where most of my memories were, I'm not gonna say wipe out because they're there. They're just word kind of compressed somewhere in my mind. So I'm able to access memories of my childhood as long as somebody else triggers them. And happens a similar situation with music, I'm able to pretty much sing a song as long as the music starts. But as soon as the music ends, I cannot go ahead and play it again. And I cannot sing it. But if the music starts again, I can see it again completely. So it's very similar with my memories from my childhood. So as far as I know, it was a normal, happy childhood childhood. And that's as far as I can go. Michael Hingson 03:58Yeah. Did you so were you always in Mexico City? Is that where you grew up? Or where did you grow up? Yes, Rodrigo Quezada 04:04I was born. Yes, I was born and I live in Mexico City. Most of my life. There have been a few projects for work where I have been in the in the US for a couple of it was a couple of weeks and every now and then a couple of months. But but basically that and coming back. Yes. remote work for a long time. But but you based basically in Mexico City. Yes. Michael Hingson 04:27So you're pretty used to doing remote work already? Rodrigo Quezada 04:31Yes, actually, I was long before the pandemic that we had the COVID in the year. I believe that was 2020. Right? Before that as communications start to become more accessible. It was becoming much much more easier to talk around people around the globe at a fairly unexpensive way. So because of that it was fairly easy to work from pretty much anywhere. So I had the I guess I was lucky He enough to consider myself a knowledge worker and start doing that since probably say about year 2020 10 When I was working in the automotive industry, Michael Hingson 05:10what did you do in the automotive industry, Rodrigo Quezada 05:12I used to be a buyer, which later turned into a global responsibility bility becoming a Category Manager, specifically for rubber, later on adding plastics and gaskets. So I was in charge of global supply in order to make sure our facilities in Mexico in the US had the materials they needed in order for us to assemble the products for for commercial vehicles. Right. Michael Hingson 05:42Okay. And that kept you busy. What, when you were in college, what was your degree? And what were you studying? Well, Rodrigo Quezada 05:49my original major was in international business. Back then, by the time that I was just about to select my major, the we start getting some of these agreements like NAFTA, where we were able to start sending goods back and forth, because before that, there was not a lot of trading among at least not along among Mexican other countries. After that, it opened what it is wide open. And now we have globalization is a whole different landscape right now. But back then, there were not as many commercial agreements, and it was pretty trendy. And I thought that was interesting. And it started out in that route. Michael Hingson 06:29So did you end up getting your bachelor's degree in that? Rodrigo Quezada 06:32Originally? Yes. And once we unfold the story on Scrum, then everything changed. And I see a very different career path. Yes, Michael Hingson 06:42I gather and we'll we'll definitely get to that. But so when did you graduate? What year did you graduate from college? Rodrigo Quezada 06:48That was me in year 2000. Michael Hingson 06:54That was around the time you had your auto accident? Rodrigo Quezada 06:57Yeah, like, before I graduated, like it's probably happened somewhere along the lines of 9697. Michael Hingson 07:04All right, so it was a little bit before you graduated anyway. But yes, that was certainly a major change in your life. Where you were you laid up for a while, or our, how did it affect you other than suppressing memories? Well, Rodrigo Quezada 07:22I think on the bright side, it allowed me to have a visitor give life a much broader meaning I was I was super grateful that I was able to make it. The heat came in my on my side, I was driving, it was my fault. I started moving forward in order to cross and then a car was coming, and there was no way that he can be avoided. And it was interesting, because I look into this person, that driver, it was I look at her eyes. And it was almost like communication, that it's I think of it out of this world. It was like talking through through without talking if you know what I mean, there was like a moment where I was pretty much saying please, please, I want to I want to still be here a little longer. And I start watching a movie. Before that I start watching a movie of my life, like a lot of kind of pictures in a super fast space. And and that's when I realized that I was just about to no longer be here in this world. And that's when I was like, oh, no, please, I read a Ruby. And that's when I make these super quick communication and eat work and and she seared the wheels. And it still hit me for sure. But not not in my door. If he had been in my door, I would not be fortunate enough to be talking to a and sharing all of this. So once once they helped me realize what happened, I realized how fortunate I am to having a second chance in this life to make the best out of it and and validate and savor as much as possible. Of course, it's not always easy, but but definitely worth attempting to to enjoy it. Michael Hingson 08:58Well, and it's interesting, I've talked to a number of people who have had major crises in their lives, and have had to, to deal with that. And so many people have said, sort of the same thing, that having a second chance and really having the opportunity to go back and think about it. They realize that the second chance gives them the opportunity to try to do more meaningful things and to be hopefully better people but certainly gives them the opportunity to go off and better value life and what it brings. Rodrigo Quezada 09:39Yes, fully agree. Michael Hingson 09:41Yeah. And you know, I'm, of course, I had my own experience with that, needless to say, surviving being in the World Trade Center on September 11. And, and we had discussions about it my wife and I, especially when the press started getting our story and the decision that that I'm made and my wife agreed was that if we could help people move on from September 11, by me doing interviews and, and also, eventually also starting a speaking career. And if we could teach people a little bit more about blindness and disabilities and guide dogs and other things, and it was worthwhile. And I love to tell people now being in large part of keynote speaker traveling the world to speak. It's much more fun to sell philosophy of life than it is to sell computer hardware. So Rodrigo Quezada 10:36yes, it's Michael Hingson 10:37a whole lot more fun to do that. So I will always do that if I can. It's much more fun to do computer stuff. So I can't complain a bit. Well, so I'm, well, I'm very much glad that you're here. So we could do this podcast. So I really appreciate it, though, that you have learned to value life more. And that's a good thing to do. But you went into the to the automotive world, and how long were you doing that? I Rodrigo Quezada 11:07was in that industry for 13 years. Wow. And then what happened? Okay, he gets interesting, I was into project management handling these different kinds of prod projects. And I was looking for ways to be a little bit more productive. So I was doing that. And then I spotted a name, a title of a book that was called doing twice the work in half the time by the author, Jeff Sutherland. And I was like, Oh, this sounds like a book that I need to get into. Right. So I started reading it. And I was a pivotal moment in my life, or at least, yeah, no, it was in many different ways. So I start reading the book. And I was I have, I had almost, I have to try it at least. So I tried to implement it. And I wasn't not being lucky enough to say that I was successful. So I realized I needed additional understanding of it, and then I seek out for training back then, right now is certain it's a bit more accessible to have training online. But back then it was not in like late year 2015. But I was able to find a place called scrum.org that had this workshop. And that was lovely. That sounds about perfect. And so So I did, I traveled to the US got this training. And it was it was amazing that the environment was very energizing. And I was like, oh, gosh, this is so definitely it. And I was able to connect the dots that I was missing prior to just reading the book. And I came back super excited. And I told my boss, I know this is gonna sound really, really weird, but I want to go ahead and implement it even I still not an expert on this, but I want to give it a try. And if you don't mind, we're gonna play roles. And we can make it happen if you're willing to allow me to. And that's the way I started pioneering on using Scrum. So where were you working at the time? Yeah, I was working for Bendix, commercial vehicle systems. Bendix, I was based on Mexico City would enough is here. But eventually, I also got an office in our corporate facility. Back then it was located in Elyria, Ohio, very close to the Cleveland airport, about 30 minutes from there. And now they move over to Avon the corporate move over. So back then I was like, why don't, why don't we don't have a kind of like a team like the scrum team that I can refer to, but I was like, let me make you the product owner. And I'm going to be a little bit of a mix of a developer and a scrum master. Because our organization, I don't know if has changed ever since. But it used to be kind of like a matrix. So the the way the teams were set up, were very dynamic. So it was not a this is a specific team that we can call scrum team. But even then, that was enough raw material where to get started. And it was the most empirical way to do it. I was back then I was even using Excel as a way to visually track the work that was meant to be done. Michael Hingson 14:10Well, so far, first of all, what did your boss say when you said I want to try to put this into effect and so on? What was your boss's position? Rodrigo Quezada 14:23He was one of the directors for purchasing and aside of the fact of thinking that I was kind of crazy of doing something so something and nobody else seemed to be doing around us. I think he was more of why not? You already went through this training. So let's let's give it a shot. And interesting enough later on. I don't think I don't know if it was because of me or pretty disconnected. But the company has eventually moved over to using Scrum, which I was super happy when I heard they were about you about then I was at that point in time. I was no longer with the company but but it was I was super excited to hear that they weren't going to do that. Michael Hingson 14:59So, why Scrum? That is? Why, why that word. Give us a little bit of the origins and kind of maybe start to fill us in a little bit about what this is all about. Rodrigo Quezada 15:14Absolutely. A scrum comms. Scrum is the framework right? grandslam to atheris, with our Kench, whoever and Jeff Sutherland. So they together created this framework, and they have refine it and make it better and better over time. Were these idea of giving these a specific name, they describe it as referring to the game of rugby, rugby, where the team is very cross functional in that like, you go like here and I go here and we stay in an each position is more alpha, we transition into whatever needs to happen in order to make this work. So that's what they thought this is almost like, like, like doing Scrum when you when you're playing rugby. And that's the reason why they gave his name off a scrum to the framework. And what it happens is that within this framework, you set up yourself in small teams, but each team has everything it needs in order to accomplish its goals. So basically, is a small unit of people 10 or less, usually, that set up a scope and, and become or are allowed to become self organized in order to make everything work. Michael Hingson 16:29So does that team then work on a specific job a specific function? Or is it more general, kind of trying to understand a little bit about what the framework is and the whole process? Absolutely, Rodrigo Quezada 16:44the team is meant to be cross functional, because it has to handle the order or has to have all the resources needed to accomplish the goals that are set for for that specific team. Now, there will be times where a project is extremely complex, and one single team is not going to be able to do everything. So that's where you're able to what is called as scale or scaling, which basically means different teams are working on a small portion of a larger goal. But the outputs of the different teams combined allow for these one big thing for a company to be able to go happen. Maybe Maybe if I go ahead and describe how the framework breaks down into its components, that could be helpful to share. Let's do that. Okay, sounds good. So So basically, there's three roles, three artifacts, and five, it has changed names over time, sometimes we call them events, we call them ceremonies, or commitments, I think the most recent way to to frame them. And basically, within a team, you're going to have three roles. And there's going to be a product owner, who is the person in charge of maximizing value for the team. And that is a person that is a bridge between the customers or stakeholders and the team that is actually doing the work. So So that's more related to what we usually think of as a project manager. But this position in the scrum team becomes quite complex. And that's why there's a second role that is created that is called the scrum master. The scrum master accountability is efficiency of the team. So it's more geared towards the inside of the team, which is the communication with the product owner and the auditor role, which is the developer. So when we think of developer, it can pretty much be any function. Because scrum can be used in any industry, although it has a natural, a natural fit with anything related to technology and software and all of that, however, it can be expanded to pretty much any industry. So that will change the scope and therefore the composition of of a team. So for instance, let's say in a non tech kind of team, you could have somebody from marketing and somebody from accounting and somebody from I don't know, some sort of operations and that team combined is going to go and reach a given amount of goals. And and then that's kind of like the three roles of the team. The product owner, the scrum master and developer and the developer are the the people that actually make the work happen. The the go getters, let's think of it that way. And the team works as a cohesive unit, which means there's got to be a clear direction of what needs to be done. The supporting coaching by the scrum master and the team actually making that work happen. Once we transition from the roles to the artifacts, that's where pretty much how the work gets managed. You create what we call a backlog of work or product backlog items within this product backlog which is everything you can build or create or accomplish. Basically your list of goals are Wish List. And so far, I'm not going to find that you want me to elaborate on any of the points that already talked about? Michael Hingson 20:07No, I think you're, you're doing fine. Let me let me ask you a question though. Typically, in a team environment, there's a team leader, is that the scrum master in this case? Rodrigo Quezada 20:18Ah, that's a? That's a great question. It's a complicated question, by the way, that's fair, as us as a scrum master and product owner sharing that leadership accountability. But if you think of, if a stakeholder or a customer has a question, Who were they gonna direct their question to, that's gonna be the product owner. So in that classic regard, I think I'm gonna have to lean more towards the product owner would be that lead. However, from a team standpoint, kind of like the leadership tends to gravitate more towards the scrum master, because the scrum master is is willing and able to help the team, figure out or solve, actually understand which which impediments you might have, and find a way to solve them. Now, in a great scenario, when you're coaching as a Scrum Master, you're not trying to solve the problem for the team, you're just trying to help the team being able to solve it by themselves. So it's more of a facilitator. But it's also a leadership role. Okay, Michael Hingson 21:22so if the scrum master is more of a coach and a facilitator, in sort of the typical language of teams, and so on, then what is the product corner person, Rodrigo Quezada 21:38it's also a leader. But the broker will be more centered around the product itself than than the team or the team efficiency, because that's where the support from the scrum master comes from. So the product owner will be more more related to to figuring out the requirements and needs from the customers slash stakeholders, and translate that into a team in order for the team to work on that value maximizing goal. Okay. Michael Hingson 22:08All right, well, go ahead and continue sort of the explanation of how the whole the whole process works, then? Rodrigo Quezada 22:14Absolutely. So from the goals, we go to what are called the artifacts, and there are three, one of them is the product backlog, which is basically your inventory of everything that that we can go ahead and build related to a given product. From there, what you're going to do is that you're going to break him down in a small in a smaller chunk, which is where from everything that we could do, where are we actually going to commit to do and that's when you go into what we call the sprint backlog, which is basically a smaller one, wait a given timeframe in order to be accomplished. And once it is that will usually refer in in traditional project management as deliverable. We call it an increment in Scrum, which is the outcome of work from the team within a given timeframe. Now, that will take us over to the ceremonies because that timeframe happens to be one of those. But before I move over to the events or ceremonies, any any questions you might have regarding the in the artifacts, or the rolls? Michael Hingson 23:20I don't think so at this point. I'll keep thinking about it. But I'm just fascinated to hear this explanation. Rodrigo Quezada 23:28Thank you so much. So moving into the ceremonies, there's there's the container for the word, it's called a sprint. And it comes from from racing, right like like a short race called Sprint. So what you're going to do is that you're going to work on something, and it's going to be a month or less, usually in increments of weeks. So usually you're going to use the sprint stuff one week, two weeks, three weeks, or up to four weeks. But no more than four reason being you want to keep it a as a scope of work that is no longer than that. In order for you to make sure you collect feedback, which is one of the I think biggest benefits of using Scrum. You're not working on something for a long time. And then in the end, come back and say a marketplace live, what I got is more of I work in a little something and I collect feedback. And based on that feedback, I'm able to inspect and adapt. So the team is always working on the highest customer priority or value, value or valuable item. So that being said, you set up a cadence of your sprint, which can go from one week up until four. And that's it. Once you have the spring. You start your spring with a sprint planning meeting, which basically do us collectively as a team commit to a given amount of work and therefore an increment or increments by the end of the sprint. Once that happens, you have a daily meeting which too it's wondering it's worth it happens On a daily basis, and it's a meeting where you're going to synchronize with a team, you want to make sure that everybody is working towards the goal, and basically keeping the eyes on the ball. And then by the end, the close to the end of the sprint, you're going to have what is called a sprint review, which is where you showcase the work that has been completed to the customers largest stakeholders. And it's a great place for interaction and collaboration, because basically, you're promising something, then you are showing what you have committed to what you promise, and then you get understanding of the path moving forward. Sometimes the customer know exactly what they want. And sometimes they think they want something but then once they start to seeing that as something they can actually inspect, they might want something different. And that's great timing, because this chrome allows for rapid changes or ongoing changes. So I might go one a given route, but I want to change route. Absolutely, let's do it. And that's what these sessions are for is kind of like a working session where collaborate the team or the scrum team and the people that are going to be using the outcome of the work, meet to review and, and provide feedback to each other. And the last event, once that happens is a what is called a retrospective or retro where basically just the scrum team gathers and understand what are the what is the team doing right? What is the team, that what the team can improve, and basically include those small improvements. And that's where the continuous improvement portion comes in. Because every single sprint, if the team is working properly, the team is growing better and better over time. Michael Hingson 26:44Well, okay, so this is clearly a very structured organizational process, which I can appreciate. But you said a lot earlier that that what you really got intrigued about and what intrigued you with the the whole idea of Scrum, even before you necessarily knew the name was do twice the work in half the time. So why does this process really increase workflow? Rodrigo Quezada 27:13Great question. One, one of the answers is because of the communication flow, the fact that you are keeping keeping teams small enough allows every team member to be able to understand each other, if the team is too weak, like when you go to a party, right? If there's too many people in the table, you can talk to a few that are close to you, but you cannot understand what is happening by the end of the table. So it's very similar, because the team is small enough communication flows properly. And therefore you avoid misunderstandings. And you're able to communicate faster and better. Therefore, you become far more productive. The other thing that I think is a part of the answer is the level of autonomy of a scrum team is fairly large. So that allows the team to organize to better suit their own needs, which allows each of the team members to bring in the best of them, and then combine them into the pool of resources. So the fact that everybody is able to work in such a pace, and the team either failing or succeeding as one. I think that's part of the reason why it makes a team so productive. And last but not least, you you every spring, you work towards the goal. So there's no misunderstanding of Yeah, everybody's doing a little something. Now, by the end of the sprint, we're going to show the work that we have completed. So so we keep focused, and we make sure it happens. Michael Hingson 28:46So it sounds like in any company, where you have a fairly decent number of people, you're going to have a number of different Scrum teams. And each one is is working on a project or maybe a few teams are working on different parts of the same project. But who coordinates all of that. So it sounds like there could be essentially a scrum within a scrum then that you've got somebody who is overseeing what the various teams are doing. Rodrigo Quezada 29:21Yeah, interesting question that's probably gonna change from from company to company or industry to industry. Think probably should explain that. A Scrum is a framework is meant to work as a whole. I mean, you don't escape roles or escape ceremonies or increments, you use all of those elements. But once you have that basic foundation, which is basically the framework, pretty much the rest of the field is very flexible. It allows for us I was explaining like scaling for instance, if I have a larger project, one team is not going to be able to accomplish everything then we can Scale to two teams or three teams or four teams. Now, if we are to go that route, then yes, your point, we're probably going to need to use as an organization, some additional tools for managing that complexity across different teams. But as long as the teams are not working on the exact same thing, potentially, you're pretty much just setting goals, and letting them go work towards those goals. So so the self organization of the teams allows a lot of flexibility for the organizations as well, they just need to set the goals. And then the teams go work to make those goals happen. Michael Hingson 30:34Well, let me maybe phrased the question slightly differently, who sets the goals? Rodrigo Quezada 30:41Well, that's what we usually refer to as the stakeholders, but stakeholder can be pretty much usually is going to be like senior leadership levels, that are saying this is what we need. So depending on the size of the company, that's kind of like which level is setting which goals, but I think is gonna probably cascade down, it's going to be most likely many of these pros is going to be top down. Eventually, if there are some mature Scrum teams, you can actually let them run wild with Can you set up your own goals of what you can actually accomplish and make that kind of proposals bottoms up? That's definitely something that can be done as well. Michael Hingson 31:17Sure that and I can appreciate that. But in general, what you're saying is that there, there is someone or there is some part of the organization, as you said that the top leadership that essentially stakeholders sets the goals. And that's where the process begins, and then assigns or works with the people below them to decide what team is responsible for what goals? Rodrigo Quezada 31:49Yes, and that's where the communication takes place between these stakeholders and the product owner, in order to break it down for the team to work in that. Right. Michael Hingson 32:00Okay. And so, once the goals are assigned, then is it also true that someone keeps the the leadership informed as to how the team is going? Or is the idea you have to trust the team and let them do their job for a month, and not interfere with the dynamic of the team? Rodrigo Quezada 32:25What I'm saying? Absolutely, yes, I guess potentially, that sometimes that can actually happen, in my experience is more of less ongoing communication between the product owner and the stakeholders, even though we're working on a given set goal for each sprint, yeah, is usually potentially having these communication helps towards the same point in time, good practice to have a roadmap of what you're doing. And eventually the roadmap can as I said, it can change because of what we think of discoveries, right, or validated learning and, and kind of think of, there's an amazing book about that by Eric, oh, gosh, he's like, I almost could swear it's Reyes, it's called the lean startup. And there's something concept that brings that comes from this book called validated learning, which is sometimes and the reason why the scope of this team says is small, is because there's a lot of unknowns when you start a project. So there's things and assumptions that that kind of like could hold true over time. But the more the larger the project, the less likely they are. So you have a certain degree of assumptions, and you want to go try to test them as fast and early as you can. Which leads to a concept that we refer to in this Agile world as your fail fast, which doesn't mean you're trying to intentionally fail. But if you are going to fail, it's better to do it as fast as you can and get your lesson learn and move forward. Because that allows you to experiment a little bit, which pairs well with the empirical nature of this process. And it also helps on the Lean thinking, because you don't want to waste resources. So if a project is going to be canceled six months from now, I rather know what would not let leave that padding to that project and cancel six months from now and cancel it, let's say two weeks after getting started, right. And I'm thinking worst case scenario, right with a project canceled, more often than not, your project is gonna change paths in order to arrive to one that is actually your successful path. So you go from something good to I guess I'm learning this from a title of a book, right? But what kind of going from good to great, right? Because you are understanding your product better as you are building it. And that takes me over to a concept which I think is in the core of everything we're talking, which is the iterative and incremental nature of Scrum. So what you're doing is building a little something, you do an iteration, and then you stop. You inspect and adapt and based on your findings, and Next time around your next iteration is going to build on top of that. So that's what we call the incremental nature because you're always delivering something. And it's always better than the, the version you delivered before. Can Michael Hingson 35:15you give us an example and tell maybe a story of, of a project and how Scrum, really enhanced getting the project done? Can you actually, is it easy enough to tell an actual story and talk about your experiences with it? Rodrigo Quezada 35:35Yeah, absolutely. I'm kind of thinking across I know, I'd see for an example is like, oh, gosh, it's been a couple of years. So I mean, I've collecting experiences. Sure. And, yeah, plus the NDAs. Right, what I can and can't share about Sure. Michael Hingson 35:54When you just sort of in general. Rodrigo Quezada 35:58Okay, got it. Yeah, well, let me share this example. It happened in one team, where we had these cross functional setup of the team members. So each of them having a speciality or kind of like being a specialist with one thing. And what happened, eventually, when we started doing the work, there were a couple of team members that were doing a lot of work. And there were some of them that we, we see working every now and then. And that makes it kind of complex, because as long as every, you have like two options, right? If you're going to be cross functional allele, everybody, there's a little bit of everything now, that for sure, nobody's going to be as proficient as the specialist. But the whole idea is that we can rely on each other. So for example, if our our programmer gets a stock, and he can get some help from the tester, then the tester gets the program a little bit with some shadowing are helped by the programmer, and then they can both program a little bit. And that's an example of clean Croc cross function. But if you're not able to do that kind of thing, because of whatever risk management policies or even willingness by the team members to go outside of their usual line of work. And that was the case here. There were team members that said, this is what I do, this is what I want to keep doing. So what we end up doing is if if these team members are don't have some tech skills that we need, but there's this other activities that they can do, as long as they don't have to mess up with the complexity, complexity of programming, or managing certain technology tools, what we did was simplify that and create a web application for for low to no code, tech team members to be able to produce work in that application. And that helped because now they can do work in an ongoing basis, as opposed to having to wait until there was some no tech work for them. And that helped the team increases the throughput dramatically, because now different team members could actually be producing work in parallel, kind of like everybody working on something at the same time, and the output was increased significantly. So Michael Hingson 38:14with those team members that really were not very technically inclined in the process, it sounds like they may not have really embraced the whole scrum idea at the beginning. But what did they think by the end of the project? Rodrigo Quezada 38:30Well, I think by providing them tools and make their life easier, and they can actually contribute to the whole, I think that that was a pretty amazing experience for us all because it is great if everybody can like go ahead and do different functions, but it's not always possible. So if it is not, how can we think outside of the box and seal provide a solution that allows the team to be more productive? And that's what we did. And it was an amazing experience. Michael Hingson 38:55And I think that's really the issue here isn't that what you're really promoting is people thinking and innovative in different ways, collectively, so that you are able to fashion and create a solution may be where you didn't think there was one. But by working together by functioning as a team, and by valuing the team, you figured out? Well, we've got to do these additional kinds of tasks to make it possible for everybody to be productive. But that's what it's really all about, isn't it is everybody needs to be involved in the team and be be productive? And the team has to be concerned about that and really work to make that happen. Rodrigo Quezada 39:39Yes, I'm glad you mentioned that. It's almost like as simple as saving the best for last. The definition of a scrum includes the fact that it is creating adaptive solutions to complex problems. And where it connects very well. What you just mentioned is that it is more of a mindset. It works within a framework. Yes. But but all the pieces working together, it is really about a mindset of problem solving in a way that that, let's say sets up the field in order for you to be very successful. So it is a tool that embraces change and innovation and problem solving, I think to a whole new level, and that's what I think we need in this day and age. Because as we have evolved as a human species, we have also been facing challenges that we didn't have before, like, like, like global warming, and are things that that are like, gosh, how are we going to solve that, right? But we gotta find a solution. Because if we don't, our our, our future is compromised. So how do we manage and handle all these projects, and I think this might not be the only way to do it. But it's definitely one way to do it. And that's the reason what I consider myself such an advocate for Scrum. I think once you do it and understand what it's coming from, you cannot stop using it, I can't. Michael Hingson 41:05So you use it in, in work and everything that you do, what do you do now? Or are you working for a company now? Or, or what's your current job environment like? Rodrigo Quezada 41:15Yes, eventually, as I started gravitating towards technology related words and phrasing and things like that, I start exploring into a new career path. And by year 2018, I started a new undergraduate program for computer engineering. And I finished that when in 2020. And then I got into a master's in data science. And about that same timeframe, I was lucky enough to join at&t, where I currently work as a principal project manager working with Scrum teams. And And most recently, I also getting engaged pursuing a PhD in computer science as well. So once I started gravitating towards technology, I realized my passion for it. And that process Grom. And it started ignited me into a very different career path, which is what I currently do. Michael Hingson 42:12So did you bring scrum to a TNT or was AT and T already embracing that as a concept? Rodrigo Quezada 42:18Because fine, I think they're really for this specific project is something that was about to get started. So pretty much. There were a few people getting started with it with a project. And then eventually, there was a significant amount of additional of team members that were hired. When I started with them, I started actually as a scrum master. And eventually, by doing the work, I transition over to product owner. So I'm fairly familiar with with with all the roles as I was leaving doing development when I got started on a very empirical way since early 2015. Yes, Michael Hingson 42:56so as a product owner or as a scrum master. When I mean that, that isn't a full time job as such, that is, you don't just sit in monitor other people, you're directly involved in doing a lot of the work yourself, right? Rodrigo Quezada 43:14Yes, absolutely. Regardless of the role, yes. Right. And Michael Hingson 43:18so you are just as much a part of the working team as anyone else. Even though you have the additional responsibilities of being the product owner, the scrum master, which is understandable when a project is done. This is a question I've always found interesting with different kinds of teams, because a lot of times when there is a team effort to do something, when it's all over and it comes time to recognize the teams, the team leader gets recognition and the rest of the team doesn't necessarily get the same amount of visibility. How does that work in a scrum environment? Is it just the project owner, product owner or the scrum master that gets recognized or is is the company or the process such that it's understood that it's really the whole team that needs to get recognized not just one or one or two people, Rodrigo Quezada 44:12it has to be the whole team if you ask me, because everybody is pushing towards this successful outcome that is a team outcome. So So collaboration and teamwork is is kind of like the glue that binds everything together. So even though the product owner is representing the team and helping the requirements and understanding and communicating with stakeholders, interestingly enough, as we are used to traditional management positions, item kind of think of off meter or scrum master or product owner as we can think of them as managers, however, from my view is almost like not giving yourself that managerial title. In some words, maybe you're doing it but you are so part of a team that is hard to tell apart. I'm kind of like, am I am I like, like overseeing? Or am I actually kind of like silly and bold, but I feel that I'm part of the team. If the scrum team is working properly, you are part of the team. So so it's not like different layers of people managing and people doing even though Yeah, true developers are doing. But you're so close to them that that that line gets kind of blurry, if you know what I mean. It's like, there's no way I could accomplish this by myself, I needed the team to backup whatever I'm supporting as a product owner. And similar thing with with the scrum master, if I'm helping a team become more efficient over time, the team is better than better. And that serves a higher purpose for both the team and the whole organization. Maybe Michael Hingson 45:44more like viewing yourself as if you will, a senior member of the team in terms of experience or knowledge level subject matter expert that you're bringing to it. But that doesn't make you better, or a a person who is separate from the team. And I think that's a wonderful concept that you're still really part of the team. And it's all about how you best add value to the team. Yes, Rodrigo Quezada 46:06it's all about maximizing value as a team. Yes. Michael Hingson 46:12Yeah, that's, that's extremely important. Because in so many teams, in so many job situations, the boss regards themselves as the boss and everybody works for them. The team leaders, the team leader, everybody works for them. But they're not in a sense, as much a part of the team is they really ought to be Rodrigo Quezada 46:33Yes, true indeed. And actually, that remember that, when they, when they created this framework, they they took away titles, they didn't want to say you're the senior de surgir, the junior dad, because that's more related to a hierarchical kind of structure. They wanted to make it as if you're a developer, you're helping with creating and crafting and adding value to the product. So you are a developer. And that's it, you don't need to have a specific title as you are a QA or you are a software engineer, or you are a site reliability engineer, SRE is like you're part of the team. And that's it, you might have a speciality. And there's something that I almost forgot to mention. Within this world, we're very used to I do one thing, and I do that one thing very well. But there's this concept of a T and are m shaped professional, which basically means you're extremely good at more than one thing. So So you have a broad understanding of several things, but you're good at at one or more things. So in that regard, there's no limit also to your potential as somebody doing the work. So kind of, is kind of like a path to mastery and fulfillment. So if you're doing these just like well, then then eventually that takes you to higher levels. And that in turn, moves over to your personal life. And then suddenly you have a virtuous, virtuous, virtuous cycle. I believe there's a right way to say it, Mike. Yeah, so so it's kind of like, like, it's fun. And then work doesn't feel as well, kind of like the way we think of work, right? Because work becomes far more fun, and you enjoy it. And then you do what you like. And then you happen to do even better, because now you aren't kind of like, completely nursing what you're doing. But aren't Michael Hingson 48:24scrum master and product owner titles in of themselves? Or how, how is that in the scheme of things different than then having some other kind of title? Rodrigo Quezada 48:37No, no, that's fair enough. That's where I think Trump is making an exception. We have these two, these two positions that are having kind of like extremely specific accountabilities within the team, because, for example, right, we only want one point of contact with the team to talk to stakeholders, because otherwise it could be 10 people sense from a stakeholder standpoint, right? You want to talk with one person from the team? And that's why it's specific to the scrum I'm sorry, to the product owner. Right. Michael Hingson 49:08Okay. And, again, I think that gets back to what I said before, which is really, although they are titles, it's really talking more about your level of experience and some of the expertise that you bring to the team. Rodrigo Quezada 49:24Yes, absolutely. It's a cohesive, cohesive unit of professionals working together, which breaks down silos, right, because you're trying to collectively achieve something opposed to this is my part of the word. And that's the only part I care for. And this is more of approach of this is what we are working towards building together. Michael Hingson 49:43Right. And that's what teamwork is really all about, or should be really all about. And so often we we tend to really miss the whole point of what the value of the team is, and we pay more lip service to teamwork. then actually doing things to embody it and make it really a part of what we do. I know that when I hired salespeople and worked with salespeople, one of the things that I always said is my job is not to boss you around, because I hired you expecting that you already know what to do and how to do it. But my job is to add value to make you more successful. And it sounds like that is what you're really seeking in the whole scrum process as well. And why you have a scrum master and product owner. Rodrigo Quezada 50:33Yes, indeed. And previously, you mentioned something about when the project ends. And I think that comes to a different concept that I found extremely interesting, which is, with your teams being kind of like a group of people working together, and the longer they can work together better, they can read each other's mind and, and, and talk to each other without even talking. If you happen to have a team like that, that is happy working together. The other thing that happens is, your cost and time is pretty much fixed. So so the team from a company standpoint has the keeping costs, right. And time is pretty much going going in a pretty linear way. What I'm trying to explain is, the scope is what's changing over time with the team. So you can you can start adding new or different things to the teams. And if one project ends, a new one can begin. As long as you have a problem to solve. You can leverage on on on a scrum team or several Scrum teams in order to make sure you keep addressing the problems that you want to tackle as a as an organization or as a group, right. It doesn't have to be a company always. But we can certainly use companies as a quick reference point for Scrum teams. Michael Hingson 51:47You mentioned to me in the past that Scrum teams don't in Scrum and doesn't embrace as much some of the traditional tools like Gantt charts and so on, why is that? Rodrigo Quezada 52:00Correct. The Gantt charts are mainly used within traditional project management when you are considering that all your assumptions are gonna are going to hold true through the whole lifecycle of your project. And therefore your planning is perfect at the beginning. But as soon as US bottlenecks that were not foreseen in time, or, or potentially, let's say technical difficulties that you find along the way. And those were not accounted for in the original Gantt chart. So usually what ends up happening is that the Gantt chart starts to deviate along from the actual planning or actual action in place. So eventually you depart from somewhere very different from where you intended to arrive. So what what is scrum does, there's there's some metrics that are used, usually referred to as velocity, which is very subjective, because it means something different to different teams. So one team have a 50 story points velocity, and our team can have a 500 story points velocity, which might seem that 501 is much faster than the team which 50 points but it's so subjective that from a working standpoint, that one was 50 points can be actually delivering more work to the to the to the organization. But anyway, you can have these kind of like burn downs, or burn up charts that you can use to track sort of metrics of how the team is doing against the planning. But remember, that is based on short spans of time, so no more than four weeks. So even if you're meeting or missing your targets, it just meant to be contained within a small or short timeframe for you to understand, learn, adjust, and do it again. But do it better. Michael Hingson 53:36If you don't get a project done in the four week time that you originally set based on the scrum rules. Rodrigo Quezada 53:44That would be a problem. Most of the time, what you do is you break down into small chunks that are achievable within a sprint, we we can think of and then again, this might come back to if I remember correctly, this Eric Ries and the Lean Startup, there's something called an MVP or minimum viable product, which is basically from everything we can do, what is the minimum we can achieve. So if you plan yourself to at least achieve a little something, and then everything you can add on top of that before the sprint is over, I think there's a safe path to always have something to show for you as a team accomplishing something because if you if you kind of lean towards the all or nothing approach, either I believe or everything or I don't have nothing to show, there could be points in time where the risk is high. And you're going to show up to the review saying I didn't complete it my work, right? There's nothing to show. So what I'll probably suggest is, is take the MVP path, always have a little something that is something you can guarantee as a team that you can deliver. And then if you happen to have extra time within your sprint, go build on top of that and add more things to here's what we have completed by the sprint review. Michael Hingson 54:53So if something doesn't get done in the appropriate time, you really We have two potential reasons for that, that I can think of one is, you made the goal too large, or too, the team isn't functioning nearly as well as it should be. And that's an in both cases, that's something for someone to go back and reevaluate. Rodrigo Quezada 55:20And that's where the rhetoric comes in. Because every by the end of every sprint, you need to collectively as a team say, Okay, where do we miss? Where do we waste? And what do we knew earlier? What do we need to do a little bit different to fix that in the future? So you're always looking for ways to becoming better and better as a team, which is one of the things that I definitely love about this framework. Michael Hingson 55:41Yeah. And that was why I asked the question, because, again, it's all about the team making a collective decision or creating a collective understanding. And again, is all about the team. Yes, it is, which then can communicate with the stakeholders and so on. In case it's the stakeholder that screwed up. And the stakeholder hopefully understands what the scrum team is all about. And we'll accept the observations when that happens as well. Yes. Rodrigo Quezada 56:18And there was something else that you mentioned that it triggered. Yeah, at one point in time, you mentioned about the team recognition. The sprint review is not only between this, the product owner and the stakeholders for the sprint review, you have to have the whole team. So the product owner can be presenting. Yes. But the team is there. So there's kind of like very specific questions about things on the, of how the product was built, or how the product is working, or any What if coming from the either end users, customers or stakeholders. That's where the team can bring in their expertise, because they build it together. Right? So the team has a voice as well within the Sprint Review isn't is not necessarily only a steal your point like like just who is managing the team, it's more off. Here's the whole team that builds together. And any questions, here's a whole team in order to be able to answer as a team. Michael Hingson 57:10And that's what really makes this such an exciting concept, because it's all about the team. And and hopefully, when the team completes a project, if they really work together, then no one tries to separate the team and put different people from one team on to another team. They allow the team to continue to operate and be a cohesive unit. Yes. Rodrigo Quezada 57:35And there's one more thing that also Bond's things together, which is one of the pillars of Scrum, which is called transparency. The process is extremely visible to everybody in the organization. So what the team is working on what progress are having, everybody can actually go see. So whether the team is working these working items, which you should refer to, or at least I'm used to referring to them as PBIS, or product backlog items. Everybody can go see what the team is working on and how they're communicating and their evidences of work completed and everything else. So stakeholders don't always have to rely on whatever the product owner says. They can actually go and see what the team is doing. Because the process is extremely transparent to everybody. And for sure, the team as well. So So usually the work is not a sign that work is is kind of taken, right? How can I help? How can I contribute? So I go to the to the sprint backlog, and I grab a working item. And let's say me as a developer, I go work on that. And every now and then it's not, it's not. It's not recommended that it's done. But every now and then even other roles such as a scrum master can go ahead and take a little bit of work, even though it's not recommended can be done. So. Yeah. Michael Hingson 58:49Why should more people embrace the scrum concept of doing work? Rodrigo Quezada 58:55God, gosh, first and foremost, because, aside from the fact that it, it's fosters teamwork, and increases happiness levels on and promotes mastery from team members, which makes it ever more exciting, it helps you deal with that the solutions to complex problems borrowing from the definition of Scrum. So as long as you have complex problems to solve it, what you want to solve is pretty repetitive and fairly and linear and straightforward. Yearning, you're probably not going to need Scrum. But as long as it starts to deviate from something that is that predictable. You can rely on group of professionals working together as a unit in order to tackle together those those problems and come out with adaptive solutions. Cool. Michael Hingson 59:46If people want to learn more about Scrum and the process, how can they do that? Rodrigo Quezada 59:54I'll probably say start out with information that is already provided. it on the scrum guide. You look at it as that the scrum guide. It was created by Ken Ken Shriver and Jeff Sutherland, the creators of Scrum. It's out there on the internet. So so I'll probably say start there, because that's the guideline for the whole framework. And Michael Hingson 1:00:16what is it called Rodrigo Quezada 1:00:18the scrum guideline, okay. It's even trademarked. But it is open to the public, you don't have to even pay to in order to be able to read or things like that. And it's been translated to different languages as well. So I'll probably say start there, because that's, that's pretty much the epicenter from for the whole framework. However, if you want to learn a little more, there's different books out there and different organizations that can help in the process, including certifications and everything else. Guess one of them, for sure, is this book that started me with Scrum, which is called doing twice the work and half the time by Jeff Sutherland is definitely one of my top recommendations for Scrum. There's also two websites that I think of that are that are scrum.org. And there's other ways to that is called Scrum Alliance. Dot I believe that.com. But if I'm incorrect that.org Both both promote a lot of conversations and best practices on Scrum. So a lot, those are great resources. There's a lot more out there. But those are the ones that come top of mind. Michael Hingson 1:01:23And is there a way if people want to talk to you and kind of get more thoughts from you about all this or just get to meet you? Is there a way for them to do that? Rodrigo Quezada 1:01:32Yeah, we could probably use LinkedIn for that. I haven't had a lot of civility. But I don't mind if I do because the whole purpose of this podcast was sharing this out loud with more people. I know what I know what up what I want that to be spread out, because I'm definitely a scrum enthusiast. So if there's way that I can help somebody else I'll I'll be happy to. So Michael Hingson 1:01:59how can they reach you on LinkedIn? What? What do they look for? Rodrigo Quezada 1:02:06Let me go seek my gosh, would it be okay if I sent it to you, I don't have it handy. Kind of like but but you can look for my name, Rodrigo. Queszada Queszada with a Z and Reyes with a Y in the end. And it's I think it's fairly accessible. Once you're into Lincoln system. Go ahead and spell all that for me. So sure, no problem. Rodrigo says spelled R o d r i g o, my first life name. Last name is Queszada. Which is Q u e z as in Zebra a d as in Daddy a. My other last name it which is Reyes R e y e s Michael Hingson 1:02:51There we go. So we can search for you on LinkedIn with that. So what are you doing? You're not working? Rodrigo Quezada 1:03:00Guys, I would rather work I'm usually doing some training. And aside of that, for sure. It's spending time with friends and family. It's a mix of of those. I have these reckless pursuit of understanding and training and eventually I'll find my purpose in life. I'm still in debt that I cannot say I have it. What I always feel I'm getting a little bit closer. So I hope I get there before. Before my end of Michael Hingson 1:03:24life. There you go. Do you do you have a family? Are you married or anything like that? Yes. Rodrigo Quezada 1:03:28I'm married. Two kids. Almost 10. Actually, they're just about to be 10. And, yeah, and also two bucks. So So yeah, I think. Michael Hingson 1:03:41Yeah, so So that's six in the family. If you get four more, you can have a scrum team. Rodrigo Quezada 1:03:48Yeah, getting close. Yeah, keep Michael Hingson 1:03:50keep working on that. Well, Rod, this has really been very much fun and enjoyable. And I really appreciate you coming on and talking about Scrum. It's a concept I have not been familiar with. But I'm going to go learn more about it. I think it's fascinating. I think there are parts of it that as I listen to you tell it that I have used in the course of my life, although I never understood it and call it Scrum. But I appreciate it. And I think it's an extremely valuable thing. Anything to promote teamwork is always a good thing. So I want to thank you once again for being here. And I want to thank you for listening to us. I hope you found rod's explanations and comments worthwhile and useful. Love to hear your thoughts please feel free to reach out to Rod and on LinkedIn and I want to hear from you please email me at Michael m i c h a e l h i at accessiBe A C C E S S I B E.com. Also, you can go to our podcast page www dot Michael hingson.com/podcast hingson is h i n g s o n? You can obviously as you've already discovered, find us wherever podcasts are available and I would love I have to ask you please to give us a five star rating. Wherever you're listening to us, give us a five star rating we we appreciate those. But we do want to hear your thoughts and your comments and anything we can do to make this better and rod for you and for all of you listening. If you know of anyone else, who you think we ought to bring on as a guest on unstoppable mindset, please let us know. We're always looking for more people who have stories to tell and things to talk about. And we want to hear from you. So one last time again, Rod, I want to thank you for being here and talking with us today. Rodrigo Quezada 1:05:33It was quite an honor for me to be invited. So thank you so much, Mike. Michael Hingson 1:05:40You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com . AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

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If you think you know all there is to know about being hospitable listen to our guest, Quentin McElveen and then decide. Quentin grew up in South Carolina and has studied the idea of Southern Hospitality for most of his life. He was serious enough about it that he went to college to study and earn a degree in Hospitality Management.

Quentin then worked in the hotel industry securing a variety of jobs in both the front of the house where he interacted with the public and the back of the house where he spent more time dealing with staff, processes and working with the behind-the-scenes system. He feels his time in the hotel and hospitality industry has made him a better person and a much better leader. He discuss with me at length various issues and concepts of what it means to be a leader. I am sure some of you will value much what Quentin has to say on this score.

During Covid Quentin transitioned out of the hotel industry and now works in the healthcare field as a “customer experience manager”. His ultimate goal is to get back into the hotel world and eventually own and operate his own hotel.

About the Guest:

Quentin, a native of South Carolina, has been immersed in the values of southern hospitality since childhood. This philosophy has been reflected in his personal and professional life, driving his interests as a business professional and shaping his character. He holds a Bachelor of Science in Hospitality Management from the University of South Carolina, where he chartered the National Society of Minorities in Society USC chapter and held leadership roles in other organizations.With over a decade of experience in the hospitality industry, Quentin has served in different capacities, including Assistant General Manager, Director of Operations, and Front Office Manager for diverse hotel brands. He has a proven track record of improving guest satisfaction scores, turning around underperforming hotel operations, and exceeding quality and performance management objectives.As he advances in his career, Quentin is passionate about professional development, coaching others, and leading successful teams. He is committed to leveraging his leadership and training skills to make a significant impact in the hospitality industry. Through his diverse professional background, he has gained valuable insights and knowledge from various industries, which he has effectively utilized to strengthen and improve his leadership abilities. This multifaceted approach has allowed him to develop a unique perspective and skillset, ultimately making him a more well-rounded and effective leader.Despite the challenges that come with pursuing dreams, Quentin always encourages others to think big and embrace their aspirations. His ultimate goal is to become an owner of hotels, a dream that motivates him to learn more about hotel operations continually. If you would like to connect with Quentin, he would be delighted to receive an invitation on LinkedIn.

Ways to connect with Quintin:

Linkedin:https://www.linkedin.com/in/quentinmcelveen/

About the Host:Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.

Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children’s Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association’s 2012 Hero Dog Awards.

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accessiBe Linkshttps://accessibe.com/https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBehttps://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/

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Transcription Notes

Michael Hingson 00:00Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us. Michael Hingson 01:21Hi, there I am your host, Mike Hingson. Or Michael Hingson, if you prefer and I'd like to welcome you to unstoppable mindset where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. And I bet our guest today Quenton McElveen can talk all about the unexpected. He talks a lot about hospitality, southern hospitality. And of course, the South is supposed to be known for southern hospitality. So we want to get into that, needless to say and learn about it. But that will come as we go forward. But for now, Quentin, I'd like to thank you for being here. And welcome to unstoppable mindset was Quenton McElveen 01:56a pleasure to be here. Thank you for having me. I really appreciate this opportunity. Well, Michael Hingson 02:00this will be fun. I'm looking forward to it. Tell me a little bit about kind of the younger Quentin growing up and what what life was like as a kid and all that sort of stuff. It's always great to start at the beginning. Quenton McElveen 02:14So I grew up in South Carolina in a two parent household. I was at a strong Christian background. I was one of the kids that couldn't listen to anything but but gospel music I got in trouble if I tried to listen to something else. I grew up around a lot of a lot of family oriented activities and outings and a lot of my childhood we did a lot of traveling. So I believe that's why I became so interested in hotels. We stayed at hotels, I live on the east coast. I spent a lot of time with Florida. The beaches of South Carolina like Myrtle Beach, had a good childhood, very good childhood. Michael Hingson 02:57So you went to school in high school and so on. Did you go on to college? Quenton McElveen 03:01Yes. I went to the University of South Carolina in Columbia, and had a wonderful college tenure while I was there at a very good time. They're majoring in Hospitality Management course. I'm telling you, man, Michael Hingson 03:21of course. So with all the traveling that you've done, what's your favorite hotel? Quenton McElveen 03:28When I was younger? My favorite hotel was Embassy Suites. I love to go there. Yeah, I love there. How large the rooms were being looted kid. I like to jump across the bed from one to the other. And the breakfast buffet. I always loved that like the um, so as an adult, I like the Hilton brand building brand hotels. Yeah. I have a credit card. Michael Hingson 03:59I don't have a Hilton credit card. But I love when I can to stay at Hilton Hotels. And I still love Embassy Suites. I've always been welcomed pretty well there. And it's good to still follow the Hilton. Yeah. Well, it's all part of Hilton. And but so I enjoyed it and I still enjoy the breakfast. They they do a good job with that. And I've even I've even spent time at the manager's reception not being a big drinker. But the snacks are good and occasionally but a drink but I love just the hospitality Embassy Suites. I agree with you. It's it's a great hotel and a great brand. Alright. So you worked at the well at the university and you you charted an organization there, didn't you if I recall? Yeah, Quenton McElveen 04:52the organization that I reached out there is called the National Society of Minorities. in hospitality. And so that organization was something that we really needed on campus at the time. And it it started a lot of engagement with different students on campus. And it allowed us to travel to Atlanta, to the National Conference twice. While I was there, we traveled to Indianapolis to a national conference got us a lot of exposure with different professionals and students across the parts of the US that had the same issues we had. Well, and I went on further than it. I'm sorry, go ahead. I went on further than that, and joined the National Board of the entire organization. So I went from chapter president to the national program. So right there there. I have got a lot of exposure, do a lot of networking, with industry professionals. Michael Hingson 05:54So are you still in the hospitality industry today? Quenton McElveen 05:58Well, I'm not not officially in the hotel industry. But right now, I am a guest services Coach and Trainer, which sounds like hospitality. But it truly is hospitality. But it's not an end to hotel. Industry. Is it your own company? Is not my own company. I work for healthcare company. Okay. Michael Hingson 06:19Well, we will, we will get to that. Yeah, I know that. That's a little bit of a switch, though, although you can certainly justify it under hospitality, I suppose. And that brings up the question, what is hospitality? Hospitality Quenton McElveen 06:33is really a feeling that you give to someone else is really a feeling that someone's feels warm and comfortable. And they feel welcomed. Hospitality is a feeling so I'm satisfied. Yeah. Michael Hingson 06:50Well, if you don't have it, you, you should I think it's a fair thing to say being hospitable and, and making people feel welcome is something that I, I enjoy. And I've had the opportunity to do it for lots of podcast episodes now. But I've always enjoyed it. And it's, it seems to me that, collectively in this country, we're losing some of the art of hospitality because we can't talk to people. We can't have discussions. We're so fractured. Do you? Do you find that to be the case? Quenton McElveen 07:26Yeah, I agree. As great as social media and technology we have today is it really it took away the personal interaction that we have we once had before, the advancement that we have with cell phones and the internet. Because we don't have to talk to one another in person anymore. We can do it on the screen. Michael Hingson 07:48I have heard people say many times that they've been on trips with their kids and their kids are in the back of the car. And they're texting back and forth. And I've never understood why. And I asked somebody once, and they said, because they want to talk about things that they don't want their parents to know. And I'm sitting there going, that is so scary. You know, Quenton McElveen 08:10it seems like it shouldn't be the other way around. It seemed like texting would have came first. And then eventually when it came out later, oh, you can actually talk to someone now. But it was backwards. Yeah. Wow. Okay. Michael Hingson 08:22Yeah. And, but and you lose some of the art and some of the nuances of personal context that it would be really important, it seems to me to have That's right. So how, in your way, you went to college, you got a degree? Did you get a bachelor's? Did you go on and get a masters or just a bachelor's? Quenton McElveen 08:45I got a bachelor's degree, and okay, great to work after that Michael Hingson 08:48trying to work? How do you teach people hospitality? I'm assuming that when you hire people in a hotel environment, you want to try to get people who are going to be able to be welcoming and so on. But at the same time, isn't it something that sometimes you have to teach the art or help people improve in their hospitality efforts? Quenton McElveen 09:10When any hiring role that I've had as a full time manager in whatever capacity I was in at the time, I hired for personality, so they had to be already hospitable and coachable in the interview, and what what they were taught was the skills to complete the job, because you can have you can teach someone skill, but it's very difficult to teach hospitality. Yeah. Michael Hingson 09:37It is a it's a real challenge to do that. Because as you said, it's a feeling. It's an attitude. It's a mindset, and it's something that people have to develop. I love going to airports. Speaking of hospitality, and whenever I get to a TSA agent, you know when we get to the kiosk or to the counter or not well, though The desk and all that. The first thing they say is, can I have your boarding pass and your ID and I give them my boarding pass? And well, can I have your ID? And of course, what I say is, what's wrong? Did you lose yours? And they mostly do laugh. Or I say, Why do you need my ID? Don't I look like me? You know, I just, it is it is a thankless job. And even at hotels and so on, I love to try to get people to laugh. I think it's one of the things that I've learned to do over the years from probably doing radio, in college and other things. But I think it's so important that we try to make people feel at ease. And of course, there are a lot of people who are uncomfortable around a blind person. And there are people who are uncomfortable about people of other races. And so anything we can do to deal with, that is always worth doing, it seems to me, Quenton McElveen 10:54that's good to hear how you, you find a way to connect with someone by using humor. I do that quite often, almost every day on the job. And with strangers that I meet. I think there's humor and everything. And it bridges the gap between, like you said different different races. And it's an easy way for me to input hospitality, but humor by using humor, because oftentimes we go to businesses and restaurants, retail stores are just places where you feel like a transaction, like you walk in, they just want to give you what you want and get you out of there. You don't feel like they really care. You know, that number was like a robotic transaction. And I don't like that. So anytime I interact with someone or my current job or anywhere, I want to make sure they feel valued. How do you do Michael Hingson 11:48that? Can you tell me a story of where you had to do that once or where you decided to do it once? Quenton McElveen 11:55Sure, I do it quite easily. The easy target for me being in the south is football. I live in. I live in South Carolina. So the two top teams of discussion are University of South Carolina and Clemson. So usually when you talk to someone, you ask them, okay, Which team do you like? And if it's the Carolina person, I just sparked up friendship. If it's a Clemson person, it's a friendly rivalry that we can joke with back and forth. Yes, that's what I do very often. And being here to south. Well, yeah, go ahead. If they're not a college fan, we can quickly move to the NFL, you know, a sports fan. like to talk about their, you know, what they have on or their name. I find different clever ways to, to interact with people. Michael Hingson 12:43Let's get real serious here, though. So that works great for South Carolina. But what do you do when you get somebody from UNC North Carolina State or Duke? Who comes to visit? Quenton McElveen 12:55Just checking. We just, we just shift the basketball? Yeah, that's something I've done. Yeah, if you shoot the basketball, and if you're a UNC fan, and you may be casual, you don't really know what's going on. We could talk about the older the older days with Michael Jordan, or move forward. Vince Carter, and we can talk about those days. So Michael Hingson 13:15yeah, no, I understand. I remember going to a speaking event. Quenton McElveen 13:22At Oh, well, Michael Hingson 13:25I, it was somewhere right around Raleigh Durham. And I landed, got to the hotel, and I was gonna just order room service and eat in my room and watch a little bit of TV, which seems innocent enough. It was March, which gives you a clue. I hadn't even thought about it. And I was going to actually watch a TV show that used to be on CBS called without a trace. And I turned the TV on was his getting ready to order. And suddenly the announcer comes out and says the television shows normally broadcast at this time without a trace and whatever, are not going to be shown today because we're going to bring you the UNC North Carolina State basketball game that decides who goes to the championship. And you can watch without a trace at 1:02pm on Sunday morning. Yeah, who's gonna be up there watching that? But, you know, they, they really did take it seriously. It was it was fun. And so I I've watched enough to learn to get into the discussions, but I've been in several situations where sports is ruled what you do. I've had a couple of speaking engagements where I was told you have to end by a certain time so that we can end this event by a certain time, like once in Kentucky, because it was the final two for March Madness and the Wildcats were one of the two teams and they said this all ends at 630 Because by 630 One, this gym, it was in a gymnasium totally full, this gym will be totally empty by 631. And you know what it was? It was I'd never seen people get out so fast. Wow. But you know what? We know what their priority. That's right. We know what their priorities are. It was kind of fun. But I agree, I think humor is, is is an important thing. And it doesn't need to be humor that puts anyone down or anything, right? There's so many ways to make people feel more welcome. And I wish we could really all learn more of that. And even with serious discussions, like nowadays, you can't really talk to anybody about politics. And you can't because everyone takes it so seriously, we become so fractured, you know. But as I put, as I love to tell people, we don't do that on top of mindset, we don't talk about politics. But if we were to I would point out that I'm an equal opportunity abuser. So it doesn't really matter. It doesn't matter. I'm an equal opportunity abuser. I'm with Mark Twain Congress was that Grandal benevolent asylum for the helpless? Quenton McElveen 16:13So okay. Michael Hingson 16:17So everybody fits in the same mold. What do you want, but you know, politics is, it's just something that is, is so serious, and we're so steeped in some of that stuff today that we just can't converse about it. And we talk about humor, but the whole art of conversation. And so I'm sure that you were to spend a lot of time just having conversations with people, which helps make them feel more welcome. Quenton McElveen 16:44Right, and I was trying to meet people where they are, you can kind of have a dessert for people, I fill them out. So you know what they're comfortable with talking about. And that's just it. So I have different conversations with different people depending on the when you're going through at a time when they're already talking about. And so it's never a disrespectful conversation and never insulting. It's always uplifting. And something that builds you up. Have you ever had a Michael Hingson 17:15situation that where you just could not break through and talk to someone or they were just really obnoxious? Quenton McElveen 17:20Yeah, I've had quite a few of those. That's what I know just to if they wanted to be transactional. Okay, I'll do that for you. I'm not going to ask you how your day was or anything like that. I'm just going to complete this transaction. I'm going to provide the service that you want me to provide. And I got to be out your way. I'm not going to hold you up at all. Yeah, few and far between. But they happen though. Yeah, that's Michael Hingson 17:48unfortunate. And you know, you don't know what caused them to be that way. And maybe they're not always that way. But whatever. There's nothing that you can really do about that other than your best guess Quenton McElveen 17:59right? There. In the hotel industry, there's a difference between hotel leisure and hotel business. So these guests come in with two different needs. against us, they're on vacation, or they're there, they have all the time in the world to spend. So they're going to ask you a lot of questions like what's the best place to eat? And what should I visit while I'm here, they're gonna ask you engage in questions. But the business guests their their own business, they just want to run with a nice, big enough outlet to plug in their laptop and their cell phone and tablet. They don't need to know what a pool is. So why am I spending my time telling them about a pool? They don't need that. They don't want to know, the newest exciting thing in town. They're not here for that. So you got to know what's compensation the half? Yeah. Michael Hingson 18:52I must admit that even if I'm somewhere for leisure, I do want to know where those outlets are. Yeah. To be able to plug things in and especially where the USB ports are these days, which is, which is getting to be more and more important, and probably rightly so. Quenton McElveen 19:12Yeah, and I believe hotel so far, some of them have done a great job of adapting to the, the new that new target market, because 20 years ago, we didn't need extra outlets, and of course, but now it's almost mandatory. Yeah. Michael Hingson 19:29And you got to have enough outlets to make it worthwhile this because people are bringing things that require them and they want them and it's all about convenience. That's right. Quenton McElveen 19:41Every note is that um, um, we talked about cell phones earlier. Now there are there are apps that you can connect with the desk before you even arrive. There are right before you had to pick up the phone or call now. They don't want you to call it as much now because sometimes you have to talk to a call center versus talking to the front desk. Yeah, well, that wasn't as big as it is now. So things are changing. And there Michael Hingson 20:12is a huge difference between talking to someone in a call center and talking to someone at the front desk. And I still prefer to call personally and speak to someone. And usually, I can figure out how to get around calling the call center, like if they want if you want to talk about reservations, and they can say, if you want to speak to somebody about reservations, push one, I pretty much am certain that's gonna go to a call center. And not interested in that. So secret, everybody, I just dial zero and go from there. But mostly, I have my act together before I go and have enough information is sent to me via email, or I can look at like the Hilton honors app, and get a lot of information right off the bat. So I get a lot of the data that I need, which is which is important. Quenton McElveen 21:09I want to I want to answer that. I'm glad you mentioned about that out. I think it's important for those who don't travel often or you're really not that into travel, you may or may not have out it whether you go to Hilton Marriott high Wyndham doesn't matter which brand you go to, I highly encourage you to download the app and do check in on the app, I would not wait to check in when you get there. But download the app and you can use it as a room key in some hotels, you don't have to have physical key. And if you check in on the hell, you don't have to stop by the front desk, unless you absolutely just want to, you can walk right past the front desk, you don't have to check in there and go straight to your room. That's so convenient. And there are times when hotels sell out. If you check it out, you put in much I guarantee your room, no matter what time you arrive, whether you get that midnight or after, if you've already checked in, they're not going to remove you from that room, right? Michael Hingson 22:14My challenge with some of that though, is in checking in and picking a room. Especially if there are different styles rooms that all fall into the category that I can choose. Not being able to see them and and then giving you the information through pictures. That's a problem for me. Okay, so I have a challenge with that. But I don't mind checking in, but I also still go to the front desk. And the reason I do is it being different enough. very frankly, I want people to know who I am. So they're they'll understand later if I ask questions or call and have a question or just come down or or whatever. So I don't mind speaking to the desk, but that's a personal thing. And it doesn't matter to me if it's business or personal or pleasure. It is still to me. Probably extremely helpful to speak to somebody at the desk. Quenton McElveen 23:14Right? I agree. It was good to get that personal interaction as well. Just connected with people. Yeah. Michael Hingson 23:22Where I see challenges for me a lot is going to a hotel. And they have a lot of hotels have these breakfasts in the morning, the free breakfast or whatever, and you go into this room and they can you can make a waffle or they've got pre made omelets and all that stuff. Sometimes they're not necessarily very good, but they're there. The problem is getting help to find out what's where and actually getting assistance to get things because, you know, unless I just go around with a fork and taste everything in each each container, you know, that's not gonna work very well. Quenton McElveen 24:05Well, normally, there are representatives that Michael Hingson 24:08well, there are tenants, but sometimes they're in the kitchen in the back washing dishes or whatever, or they step away. So it's just, they're not always there. And more often than not, it takes a while. But the other problem is, here's what usually happens when I find a breakfast attendant. i I'll go in and I'll stand for a second and usually I can find an attendant fairly quickly. So most of the time, they don't wander off, but then they say, Well, what do you want for breakfast? I don't know. I just got here. What do you have? You know, they always want to know and a lot of times that's why I hate it when people want to read me menus in restaurants and so on. If I go in and they don't have a Braille menu. I say to them, you know, I'd like to know what's on the menu. And then the question is what do you want? Well, you know, the the temptation, when that happens is to say something like, I want to roast duck dinner with stuffing, and other things like that, that I'm sure they're not going to have. Why are you asking me what I want? When I want to know, first of all, what's on the menu? How am I going to figure that out? It's kind of an interesting world we live in. Quenton McElveen 25:22Yeah. And that's a common question that I get to when I go to restaurants that I have not been to before. Let me see the menu first. And I'll be able to answer that question. Right. But I'll tell you what your hell first, you know, Michael Hingson 25:33yeah, because seeing the menu doesn't do good for me. Right. And it is a challenge to get people to recognize, well, I got to know what there is. First. There are some interesting apps, and they don't do as much as I would like. But there's a an app, for example, called menus for all. And it has some almost 800,000 different restaurant menus. And what you can do is you can just activate it when you're where you want to be. And it will tell you, starting from the closest going out what the menus are that they have. Unfortunately, I've been doing really well lately in the menus that I've wanted, or for the restaurants that I'm I know I'm at, they don't have. And so I still only get them the menu. There are other ways to get it. And there are a number of ways there's a program called Blind square that I can access. And when I do that, Quenton McElveen 26:29then Michael Hingson 26:32it'll see where I am. And blind square also is great at pulling up local menus, it actually goes into the website on its own, and finds it and discovers the menu and then it can read it out loud or whatever. But yeah, menus can be a challenge and restaurants. On the other hand, go to Embassy Suites, the chicken case, ideas are always good. Yes, so I can I can be in a rut pretty easily. In case the Diaz, Quenton McElveen 27:05if all else fails, go to Embassy Suites. That's a good place to eat. Michael Hingson 27:10And stay Yeah, it is. pricey. But but you know, there are there are always challenges. And mostly, I do find that people want to do the right thing. But of course, they want to do the right thing a lot more, when you make it joyful for them to want to do the right thing. So I think that's really important to address to Quenton McElveen 27:34you talking about just employees in general. I'm talking Michael Hingson 27:37about employees in general, and interacting with with the public employees are going to be more prone to interact with me, if I make it pretty clear that I value them and want to talk with them. And you know that we can have a good conversation as opposed to just being a jerk. That's right. That's right. I agree. So what do you love about the hospitality industry since you were in it for such a long time, and you're still sort of in it, if you will, Quenton McElveen 28:09it's come natural, to me, is something I've been doing my entire life. And just just being a part of having a job where you hospitality is something that you have to do. It's not hard at all, it comes natural. Even if I wasn't working, I will be doing something with hospitality. Even when I'm not working right now. Like if I go to a mall or something, something as simple as holding the door for the next person. Or something as simple down south, we say Yes, ma'am. Yes, sir. I know that's not accepted everywhere. But it shows respect. Just making sure if if there was an accident that happened with someone, someone slips and falls, making sure they Okay, versus pulling your phone out for YouTube and Facebook, you know, just the old school stuff that it's not as valued as much today. So working in the hospitality, industry or working in hospitality, it gives you the opportunity to do that, to get paid for doing something that you love doing. Michael Hingson 29:17And that's really the issue, isn't it? It's all about making it a fun job and paying for what you love doing and getting paid for what you love doing. Quenton McElveen 29:25If there's my personality, we have a front of the house, or there is in front of the house and the back of the house for a reason. Not everyone wants to be up front talking to guests, and that's fine. This was the back of the house for and so and then in front of the house person, they don't necessarily want to be in the back. So it's a room for you. You don't have to be customer or guest facing to be in the hospitality industry. But Michael Hingson 29:52even so, there are going to be times when people in the back of the house are going to have to interact with customers and so they should I understand enough the value of doing it even though it may not be what they do regularly. Quenton McElveen 30:03That's true. Michael Hingson 30:07That's right. So it's kind of important. What's your most memorable moment? What's the thing that stands out to you the most about being in the hospitality industry or that happened to you? Quenton McElveen 30:18When I graduated in 2011, and I love this question. I moved to New Orleans never been there before. Don't have any family there. I moved there, because I have a great opportunity. And it's a culture shock. Coming from South Carolina to New Orleans, they don't even speak the same type of English. So I had to learn English again. When I first touched down in the in the airport, the lady said, she asked me how I was doing but she said, how you doing baby? And I thought she liked me something because she called me baby. But no, that's and then as I continue to go along, that's just how they greet one another there by saying, baby. That's it. Oh, okay. So it's a whole lot different. So my most memorable moment in the hotel industry was opening or reopening the Hyatt Regency New Orleans. Hotel was destroyed by a bit of real bad by Hurricane Katrina. Katrina, right. And I was part of that team that reopened it. So I when it comes to mattresses and pillows, sofas, I was part of that team just restocking the rooms, getting them prepared, ready to open. I even had a hand and the 10 replacement in the bathrooms. So that was a big part of my idea. If you're still like that today, how wasn't that when I was there? Notice something I could have credit for. Many years later, Michael Hingson 32:04I stayed at that hotel. I remember it. It's been a while, but I've been there. And we're attended a couple of conventions in New Orleans as well. Quenton McElveen 32:12Around what year? It Michael Hingson 32:15was, it was pre Katrina. Okay. I'm trying to think if I'd been if I've been there since I may have been there once since. But I know I did pre Katrina, and I think I was in New Orleans once and did stay there. And it was after Katrina, but it was several years after I Katrina hit. And then I was also Hurricane Rita, in Texas. And I was in Texas, when all of that happened. And so I got to see a lot of what was going on like in Beaumont, Texas, and around and around there and how people were having to deal with it. It was definitely a sad situation. Yeah. And people were homeless because of what happened. And sometimes I remember it was very difficult to break through to people and get people to smile. And, and I worked at it pretty hard. Course, in one sense, it's easier for me having a guide dog because most everyone loves to pet a Labrador golden retriever. And right, especially when the dog comes up and pushes his or her nose right under your hand and says I'm here. Time to talk to me. And people love that. Yeah. Quenton McElveen 33:34Now I'm actually working at a property of my Michael Hingson 33:37current dog would say let me jump in your lap. But that's another story. You're gonna say. Quenton McElveen 33:43I once worked at a property where we had a adopted dog program. Uh huh. So there was a dog in the hotel lobby by the front desk 24/7 until someone came to adopt that pet and then when that pet got adopted, they brought a new dog in and that was that was interesting and people love to come in and like you said pet pet the dog that we had in at the time. Michael Hingson 34:12Yeah. Quite she had to have a dog that would tolerate being loved by lots of people but that's fine. Yes. Quenton McElveen 34:20The only we have many problems so one dog that we had to we had to send back because didn't like the pit Michael Hingson 34:32only dogs oh no cats, huh? No kiss. Yeah, there's there are differences there and cats would be a different situation all the way around anyway. But still, that's neat that they did that. Where was that? What was what hotel was that? Where was that? Quenton McElveen 34:50This is actually in Greenville, Greenville, South Carolina. Michael Hingson 34:56Do they still have that program? Do you think Quenton McElveen 34:59I'm gonna Sure, I would imagine that they do. But I'm not 100% Sure. That's cool. Yeah. Michael Hingson 35:07Now I have been to the Peabody Hotel in Tennessee, where, you know, they have the ducks that go over the bridge every day. And we watched the ducks and my dog was very interested in those ducks. The thing is with with her, she liked ducks. We actually had ducks. That came up on our patio, in Northern California, in Novato, California, we were lived on a lagoon and the ducks would come up because we fed them bread. And if my dog just laid down, they would surround her need to quack at her and so on. And as long as she didn't make any sudden moves, they were they were fine course what she loved to do was suckered them all to getting close by and then she would jump up, and they would all fly away. She loved to watch them. flyweight did not do. But but she she was absolutely very, very sociable and loved them. That was her visit version of hospitality, right? Because she really did she loved the ducks. And, and, and actually, they all got along really well. So it was kind of cool. Nice. Nice. Yeah, it is. Quenton McElveen 36:25Well, so Michael Hingson 36:29what? So what is the the hospitality industry taught you what have you learned from being in it for such a long time. Quenton McElveen 36:37So working in the industry, you meet people from all walks of life, it teaches you diversity. So coming from a small city in South Carolina, where you run the same atmosphere all the time, and that's all you see, once you move out, like for example, when I moved to New Orleans, or, or moved back to South Carolina, and worked in a few different cities in South Carolina, you meet people that fly in from all over the world, really. So it expands a broaden your horizons, you get to interact with a lot of different ethnicities. So it definitely teaches you diversity, teaches you patience, because not everyone has an enjoy, they have time. Let me say it another way. Some people run into some issues, like maybe some accident happened at room was a cleaner web, whatever the case, was it tissue patients because you want to sit down and listen to them completely, and then solve their problem, you don't want to just cut them off. And then to solve the problem, you want to listen to them first. Because that's one way that they're going to feel value. They think that it matter if you listen to them first. So it teaches you that patience, and it teaches you really be a better person. It really does. So because if you didn't have the opportunity to know that, just because you think something is a good idea your co worker is from another country or from another city, another background, they have a completely different idea. And there isn't wrong, yours isn't wrong either. Is is different, you got to figure out a way to come together for the greater good of the assignment that you're on or the greater good of the property and work it out. And it's good to see some from another lens. You've only you only can speak on your life experiences. If you've never experienced something different How can you give a valid input on your coworker has and vice versa. And so that's another way of just broadening horizons. And having a problem solving skills is transferable to any industry that you transfer to your personal life, being able to problem solve, because it's not gonna be perfect every day. There's no two days of like something something's always going to need attention done to it. And if you've done so many times, just being just being a human being, you're gonna have to put those things into practice at some point outside of your job. Yeah. And one thing that I'm not sure if people know it or not, but I won't point they didn't work in in the hotel industry has a lot of transferable skills. Like as we stated before, I currently work in the healthcare industry, but a lot of stuff that I use, I learned from working in hotel talking to a guest with a patient but I call them guests that maybe were frustrated with them. Well, let me tell you the story. Listen, this happened last week. Last week, I got a call that we had a guest that was actually blind guests. And he struggled with getting around in our facility, he, he was able to get dropped off there by the transportation company. And he was able to get picked up. But why he was there. He didn't. He didn't receive the help that he needed. So he told, he told him, the person, his caregiver. And he told me because I worked with guests, the guests experience department. And we met at work. So the next time you come, give us a call, we ensure that you get around to your destination while you're in the building. And when you leave, make sure you get back to the front door. And I got a I got feedback on this week that he saw the difference that he really enjoyed us taking the time to make sure that he was taking care of it. So that looked that's come from the hotel industry. And that was something I love to do. I love to take care of someone. Michael Hingson 41:02So you think you probably wouldn't have necessarily learned that if it hadn't been for being in the hotel and hospitality industry for so long. Quenton McElveen 41:09I wouldn't have been exposed to it the way that I have been so would have reacted, maybe not the same. But just my upbringing, I'd love to help people in a way, but going about it in such a way to get it done as quick as seamless as possible. The hotel industry has taught me how to do that. Michael Hingson 41:29How would you describe your leadership style? Because clearly, you've progressed in the hospitality industry, and you must have been in managerial and leadership positions. And obviously, in college, you did some things that that would mark you as a leader. So what's your style? Quenton McElveen 41:47Yeah, so yes, I have had some, several manager positions in front of the house, and back of the house with rooms and food and beverage, and my leadership style is charismatic. And hands on down in the trenches with them. We're going to get our work done, but we want to have fun doing it as well. If you're going to laugh joke, you're going to go to see some humor, I want you to feel comfortable, I want you to feel like you matter. It's not a dictatorship, it's not a strong on ruler, ship. Your opinion is needed and is necessary. And as leader, I'm going to frontline not going to ask you to do something that I would not do. So charismatic would be the answer to that. Michael Hingson 42:35Have you had Oh, go ahead. Quenton McElveen 42:38Let me give you a housekeeping story. Many times in a hotel industry you have to you're gonna have to pitch in and help housekeeping which is understood, very common. So it doesn't matter that you got a brand new suit on that you bought rolled sleeves up and get in there, make them beds and help clean, that's what managers do. You don't just tell somebody else to do it. And so there have been times where I'm helping house he was in a room to know when to quit, we got it, you go back up to the front, we'll take care of it for you. So that respect level they have they know that I'm willing to help. But in that particular case, they wanted me to they didn't want me to do it that they want me to help it in other ways. Michael Hingson 43:27But you said a message by what you did that you're willing to help and assist them. Because they they also have a lot they're dealing with so you kind of have their back. Quenton McElveen 43:39Right? At a town of a family this is is actually international housekeeping. We I'm not in the industry anymore. But this week is special. It's a it's a time where you use your resources and use the time to celebrate housekeepers. And I absolutely love this week. And just scrolling through my feed. There's a lot of different things that are being done this week. There's one hotel, they're getting all the housekeepers a pedicure, but a spa day a lot of celebrations, a lot of food, a lot of acknowledgments. And just think of the hotel industry without housekeeping. You know, hotel would last because they are the heart of the hotel. You Michael Hingson 44:33in dealing with a lot of different people and all that. Have you had any employee situations that you've inherited, for example, where, again, somebody just didn't respond and you had to take some action because they were not being hospitable? Quenton McElveen 44:52Yes, yes. There's two I can think of right now. One case it was Is that like, you come in, and you're working, you're working with the public. Like I say, you want to be hospitable, if you just want to come in and just be transactional. I don't want to tell about the exact the exact things that happened. But if you just slipped, somehow slipped through the cracks through the interview, like you played the safe in the interview, and you act it well, but you get the job, and you're totally different person. That's not going to last, well, this isn't going to last long, I should say. Yeah. Michael Hingson 45:32And cuz you can't hide it forever. Right? After Quenton McElveen 45:37about three months is usually a time. Yeah. Michael Hingson 45:44It is something that people are going to pick up on. Again, it's so much easier to have fun and enjoy life and encourage others to do the same thing anyway. Quenton McElveen 45:57Well, one thing that I really enjoy about another thing about working in hotel industry, as I got older, Quenton McElveen 46:05my focus really wasn't so much. Me, of course, I know I'm going to do a good job. But I want to see how can I develop a team, I kind of lead others to be successful, I kind of build up others to match their dreams and goals, because not everyone wants to be a manager and hold change. Not everyone wants your job. Some people are they're working through school, some people have a spouse that's working, and they just want a second job. Find out what motivates everyone. And that'll help you be a better manager to them. And if you align with your people's needs, they're definitely going to align with yours as well. And, for example, let's say you have your short staffed one day, if you're not a good manager, if you don't treat your team with respect, you can make the phone calls or call people in your phone, you might not get the answer. But then they see, okay, this manager respects me. Let me answer the phones, if they want it, yeah, come in, even even to come in. That makes a big difference in how you treat people. And being a leader, not just a manager, a boss, you get a chance to really change people's lives for the better. And that brings more joy than just by anything. Because I always treat my employees as they were just about treatment, I guess, then I don't, there's no doubt in my mind, they're going to treat the guests. Well, because they see that manager do. Michael Hingson 47:33You just said something really interesting, you talked about a leader or a manager, or just the boss, what's the difference between a boss and say, a manager or a leader? Quenton McElveen 47:45Well put boss, a manager in the same category. So a manager, they have a certain task and incomplete goal that they need to reach, they're gonna just reach that goal, and they're going to tell you to go do it. They're part of that airplane is delegation. That's the main part of what they do. Leader, yes, they're gonna delegate as well. But they're going to do it with you, they're going to make sure that you have all the tools that you need to complete the task, the delegation, they're gonna do some of that some of them with you on the front lines. So they while they're on the front lines, now we get to know each other, we've moved on from small talk. Now, I might know something about your family. Now I know about your interest was your favorite ice cream. So when your birthday your birthday gets here, I can give you that? A manager, they don't really care about all those details that much. Just come in, do your job, and and keep it moving. So there's a there's a big difference between a manager and a leader. And I always want to be the leader that I want my layout that I want to have. Yeah, Michael Hingson 49:03I think it's important to be a leader in the really good managers learn to assess who has what leadership qualities and know when to give up leadership to somebody else on the team to deal with something that they need to deal with. Quenton McElveen 49:20Yes, I 100% agree with that. Yeah, Michael Hingson 49:24we experienced a lot of that in the World Trade Center, going down in escaping on September 11. There were different people that had different skills that that worked at different times. And and even working with my guide dog, there were times that the dog was able to guide because we could walk side by side and there were times that the dog couldn't be next to me and had to walk behind me just at heel on leash. But, you know, the bottom line is that for the team of me and a guide dog, we both respected each other and I think that's The biggest issue with teams and team building overall, is to develop a true respect among all the team members and that the leader of the team knows, and learns to understand the qualities and abilities of everybody on the team to know exactly that when to allow someone else to take the lead to accomplish something. Quenton McElveen 50:23Yes, there are several times in department meetings, that was something that we had to accomplish or go over. There are times I would open up the floor until tell the team okay, this is what we need to accomplish. Does anybody have any ideas, I mean, it might be an acid that I have. But reverence is given all the answers, empower somebody else to join in, and give them a chance to lead. And you start to see what you have a lot of stress on your team, if you just allow them to contribute, that have made them that have made them better employees and make them better leaders. I've seen where I've seen housekeepers turn into housekeeping managers. I've had a Front Desk Agent turn into a general manager made throughout progression of the Maya leadership. Yeah. So empowering employee empowerment shoes, for me is a big part of my own. What I do as a leader, Michael Hingson 51:26well, and as you, let's go back to your discussion, you're having a discussion with people and you say, what, what are your ideas, please contribute? And somebody said something, and you assess, and then maybe make the decision to say, Okay, would you be willing to coordinate starting and working this project, which is, of course, part of what you're saying, it's very important to be able to do that. And I think that that's extremely important. And it shows that people value the people that they work with. And I also believe that good leaders are also servants and Rita understand that, Oh, Quenton McElveen 52:08yeah. That that goes into employee engagement as well. Once you get your employee engaged, then you don't necessarily have to worry as much about what they're doing whenever you're not around. Because they have an assignment, like you just mentioned, and the deadline, they're going to be working on getting that assignment done. And if somebody is engaged, they're more likely to stay because you want to be somewhere where you feel like you have some type of value. I'm thinking everyone just wants to come in to a place where they know no one wants him to be there. So that employee engagement is another thing as well, that's a big part of my leadership style. Michael Hingson 52:50I work when I'm dealing with my teams, whenever it is, to get people to understand that I don't want you to just feel that this is a job, I want you to have fun, I want you to come because you want to. And I think that I have to have fun, and I have to set that example. But I want people not to think that a job is just a job, but it is what we're doing. And we're working together. And we're making a difference. And part of my job is to show people when they make a difference and how they make a difference and why that's so important. Quenton McElveen 53:29In today's world, you know the the generations change from Baby Boomers to Generation X, Generation Y, Generation Z, the 10 years of the length of time someone stays at a company, it changes. You used to see those that stay at a job for 20 plus years. You don't see that as often now, usually the generation now or Millennials or generation after us because I'm a millennial, my standard job for three years or so? No, maybe less than that. Maybe more now, but I would say three years is probably a good average. And the some of the reasons why they would take a position at another job because they don't feel as value. Another job might offer them something that they can't get at their current position. That's one of the reasons. And as I think that we need to kind of as, as leaders of businesses and companies just kind of evaluate how can we get our employees to stay longer? What can we do? Will it help our bottom line and we figure out a way to keep the longer or I think that's a discussion that needs to be had. Michael Hingson 54:52You think companies are doing that at all and are catching on to the fact that that probably is a sensible thing or do you think that People just still are viewing workers as commodities without really looking at the person. Because my impression is that there's a lot of that that goes on today, Quenton McElveen 55:12I think is a topic of discussion. Um, I honestly don't know, what's, what's being done. The the gig economy has played a big part in that. Because so the generation now they can just go quit. And okay, I'll drive Uber for a few months until I can find something else, or am I stupid, permanently, that this was not an option 2030 years ago, that you couldn't take a job like that. Or somebody might say, I'm going to be a content creator. So I'm gonna make my money online. So there are more options now than ever before. And because of those options, it should be some action taken within corporate America. Something that we got to learn? Michael Hingson 56:08Well, you talked about the lessons that you learn in the hospitality industry that you take to life. How about the other way? What have you learned outside of the hospitality industry that you brought into your work in the hotel industry, Quenton McElveen 56:20there's something that feels right now it's called Emotional Intelligence. I've never heard of that before. Maybe I'm late to the late to it. Or maybe I think I'm just rattling time. But I've never heard of emotional intelligence before. And the industry that I'm in now, as you teach it as a coach, is understanding how your emotions affects others around you, and how it affects your actions as well. And the fact I've been studying this and teaching it to others, like I've improved my performance as far as having conversations with others, because I understand now, how my actions, even though I might not be trying to do something negative, or I might not be trying to act a certain way, it might come off as a certain way. Emotional Intelligence has taught me that. So that's something I've implemented. And I'm going to use this forever. So pretty cool. So Michael Hingson 57:24in the world, you we all tend to be inspired by people who's the person who's most inspired you. Quenton McElveen 57:31Person that as far as me right now is my wife. But she's she's given gives me the motivation that I need to go to go in and move our family forward every day. So my wife is my biggest motivation right now. Michael Hingson 57:51I had a conversation actually with someone earlier today, and we were talking about that very thing. And he asked who inspired me and I mentioned, my geometry teacher from high school did herbal Shimer, but certainly another person and the person who, if I also were to really talk about inspiration would be my wife, Karen, who was married to me for 40 years until she passed, but 40 years, a lot of memories. But in so many ways, and I even in the book I wrote about the World Trade Center in my life, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man has guide dog on the triumph of trust, to talk about that, and talk about some of the things that she did that. I think only she would think of that I certainly didn't, until she brought it up. It just really helped me make some very wise choices. I always thought she was brighter than I anyway. So you switch from directly being in the hospitality industry, the health care industry? What what caused that? And what do you do now? I think you've told us some of that, but that's a pretty big change going from one to the other in a sense that would seem Quenton McElveen 59:05Yeah. Really well cause is it 2020 During the the height of the pandemic, the situation that I was in in the hotel at the time, it became a hazardous situation because the room rates went down, a lot of the staffing went down. And the environment wasn't a good environment at time. So just so I can be safer and be closer to my family. I accepted a position outside of the hotel industry, hard decision to make because it's an issue that I love that I'm passionate about. But then I found something called a guest experience coach. So wait a minute, is this a hotel job or something? What's the guest experience coaches doing in healthcare? A job so I looked it up. And it was really, if teaching people and instilling in them what I've learned so many years as a manager in the hotel industry, but teaching it to healthcare workers. And so as a guest experience Coach, what I do is I travel around different campuses of my of my company that train on different subjects like the emotional intelligence, training on telephone etiquette, and how to handle difficult guests, and many other topics as well. So that's what I do now, very similar to what I've done in the past. Do Michael Hingson 1:00:39you think that you would go back into the hotel industry directly in the future? Are you really happy where you are now? Quenton McElveen 1:00:47Yeah, so I'd love the opportunity to re enter in a role similar to what I'm doing now where you can use your experience and coaching build others up, like a learning and development manager, or even in a role supporting operations. Like, like, I told you, my biggest, my biggest memory or not remember, you asked him what was my biggest something? I did? And I told you that was New Orleans. My most memorable, memorable moment. Yeah, yes. Opening up a property? I absolutely. That was a great experience. There are there are positions that are that you do just that you go around and you open property. So I would love to re enter the industry will give you an opportunity. Well, hopefully that will happen. Yeah, I believe it will. Well, I Michael Hingson 1:01:45want to thank you for being with us. We've had a lot of fun over this last hour. And I think you've said a lot of very interesting and important things that we can all take to heart I love your view of leadership and, and a lot of the things that you've said, and I've spent enough time around the hospitality industry, I think to understand it, like I said, I I enjoy dealing with people to and helping to have people feel welcome. And and I know that for me being different because of being blind. It's very helpful to do that. So I I love getting the validation of your philosophy and I appreciate that. Quenton McElveen 1:02:25Listen Michael, Michael, thank you again, it's a great opportunity to be here with you. And I'm honored that you will allow me to be on your platform. So I appreciate what you do here. And I thank you. Michael Hingson 1:02:35Do you do any coaching privately? Or do you just do it for the healthcare industry? You don't have your own sort of side hustle business? Quenton McElveen 1:02:42I currently I don't have that, but that's something I've been looking into thinking about. Michael Hingson 1:02:47Well, yeah, if you do, let us know, because we'll let people know. But if people want to reach out to you, is there a way they can do that? Or do you have any contact information that you want to tell people? Quenton McElveen 1:02:58Sure. You can find me on LinkedIn, you can just type in Quentin McElveen. Can you spell the active on there? Sure. Q u e n t i n says Quentin and McElveen is M c E l v as a Victor e e n. So Quentin McElveen. easiest to find on there and I'm on there pretty often. So that's that's the best place to end to interact with me. That's how we found you. Yes, that's right. Michael Hingson 1:03:35I'm very glad that we did. Well. Thanks for being here. Thanks for listening. We really appreciate it. I hope that you enjoyed what Quentin had to say today and that some of it resonates. Reach out to Quentin, establish a connection and make a new friend all the way around. For my part, I'd love to hear from you hear what you think about today. Give us up an email at Michaelhi at accessibe.com That's m i c h a e l h i at accessibe A C C E S S I B E.com. Or visit our podcast page WW dot Michael Hingson H i n g s o n.com/podcast. And wherever you're listening, please give us a five star rating. We really value those ratings and would very much appreciate you saying that you liked us. And if you've had some things that you want to say about it, let us know. Email me I would love to hear from you. Get your thoughts again. It's Michaelhi at accessibe.com. I know Quentin would like to hear from you as well. And when we all get the chance maybe we'll have to do this again, Quentin, when you go back into the hotel industry, we'll have to just hear what new adventures come up. But I want to one more time. Tell you thank you very much for being here and giving us the opportunity to chat with you. Quenton McElveen 1:04:53Well, I'm looking forward to that I want that to happen as well. I look forward to Michael Hingson 1:05:03You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com . AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

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“True prosperity lies beyond material wealth.” This statement begins the biography of our guest this time, Djuradj Caranovic. Djuradj is from Belgrade so we caught him fairly late one evening his time. He is a wealth therapist and a business coach. While you may ponder what the two have in common, Djuradj explains and shows why the two work well to offer him a way to help many wealthy people to discover how to be happier persons. Djuradj Caranovic studied business and also later he began to learn about Psychotherapy. He melds the two interests in his successful business which works to help many of the world’s wealthiest people become better human beings. Our discussion covers many topics such as Trust, Introspection, the true meaning of success and so many other relevant topics related to living a better life. This episode is well worth checking out. I hope you like it. About the Guest: True prosperity lies beyond material wealth. In my role as a Wealth Therapist and Business Coach, I guide clients to uncover their unique inner abundance. This distinctive approach marries business acumen with a profound understanding of human behavior and psychology, offering insightful and transformative guidance.

My 11-year professional journey reflects an evolving interest in human decision-making. Starting in finance, I was drawn to behavioral economics, seeking to unravel the psychological factors influencing financial decisions. This exploration led me to change management, where I facilitated in-house training and executive coaching, helping corporate clients implement effective change strategies and navigate organizational transformations.

These experiences naturally progressed to my current roles as a business coach and psychotherapist. Here, I blend my knowledge in finance, business strategies, change management, and behavioral insights to provide a holistic approach to personal and professional development.

In my practice, I assist clients in understanding the multifaceted aspects of their lives, focusing on both emotional well-being and life abundance. I guide them through the complex interplay between thoughts, emotions, and life decisions, teaching them to embrace their authenticity and navigate life's challenges with resilience and insight.

My upcoming book, "The Book That Changed Me," is a testament to my professional journey and the wisdom I've gathered. More than just a collection of words, it's a narrative of introspection and discovery, shedding light on how to find and nurture one's inner richness. It embodies my philosophy of integrating diverse knowledge areas to enhance the lives of individuals and their dynamic environments. Ways to connect with Barbara: Linkedin:https://www.linkedin.com/in/djuradj/ About the Host:Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children’s Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association’s 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.comhttps://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/https://twitter.com/mhingsonhttps://www.youtube.com/user/mhingsonhttps://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ accessiBe Linkshttps://accessibe.com/https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBehttps://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can also subscribe in your favorite podcast app. Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts. Transcription Notes

Michael Hingson 00:00Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us. Michael Hingson 01:20Well, Hi, and welcome to unstoppable mindset. Welcome wherever you happen to be. I hope you're having a good day. And that all is going well. Today, we get to chat with Djuradj Caranovic, and Djuradj is in actually Belgrade. And I love one of the things that he said to me in his bio. He said true prosperity lies beyond material wealth. And I'm really anxious to talk about that some. But I really appreciate the opportunity to have someone that gives that kind of thinking to what, what they're doing. He's a wealth therapist and business coach. And we're going to learn all about that as well. So Djuradj I want to welcome to unstoppable mindset. And thank you very much for taking part of your evening and being here with us. Thank Djuradj Caranovic 02:12you, thank you. Thank you for invitation. And thank you for having me. It's really honored to be part of such excitement projects you're dealing with. Well, Michael Hingson 02:21thank you. And we're glad you're here with us. So let's start, as I always like to do by kind of going back a little bit, tell me if you would sum about the early jurists show, you know, growing up, and so on, let's start there. From Djuradj Caranovic 02:36the childhood I was very amazed about human nature, and how should they perceive the social awareness of it. And I was always dealing in trying more to understand why someone is doing something good or bad. And as well to see how I can relate to it. And in early days, I was a lot of learning through play, and how to get more creative with my brands, and, and my surroundings. And basically, that was dealt with, I don't know, high school. And then after high school, I was totally amazed and to be totally transparent about the material things of the life, and started with the economy and the behavioral economist, actually, I became the behavioral economist. It is something which combined the psychology and the economy, which means I'm analyzing the behavior of the consumers, and then basically time creating marketing and sales strategies. And after some time, in my corporate career, I became more and more close to the people and please, and I was more and more passionate about the way they're making their decisions and how they're actually trying to bring their life experience to the work and as well to their lives. And this is actually my second life. Because this is the for me the breakthrough that I really want to more deal with the people than the corporates and processes and everything else. And yes, no, go ahead. And for me, it was very, you know, when you everybody's telling you that you need to love what you are working and to have that added value. And then you will have the feeling that you're not actually working but that you are producing some value which you can share and bring to others. And actually the first time I found that field is when I started my journey as a psychotherapist, and actually learning how to help people, and how more to understand the functional part of their lives. And now today, I'm dealing with very by accident actually is I was wealth therapist is very niche of everything, because it's a niche that is focused on the ultra high net worth people and their specific way of thinking and their specific lives. And it's very niche not because everyone else think of their wealth, it's very specific, because they are combining the time management very well. And they have a lot of regret regrets regarding how the they are prioritizing their time. So it's very difficult, different way and difficult way of the therapy, because they can argument by success, everything they are doing doing currently, but as well, they are not so happy with their life. So it's very, by by logic, it's very difficult to understand. And then you need to bring these, let's say, feelings and, and a way of thinking that you need to understand why they are living that way. So basically, this is the short version. Yeah, Michael Hingson 06:40I understand. So why is it that you think a lot of the people who are very wealthy and who so many people would say, well, they're successful, because they're wealthy? But why do you think they're not happy? And do you think that they view themselves as being successful? Um, Djuradj Caranovic 06:57yes, they are very aware of their success. And actually, they are utilizing the success very successful in their lives. And this is the biggest challenge for them, because they can get with some things through their influence or through their status. And then actually, they want to deal with as some kind of personal development. For from them the business part of their lives and the private part of their lives. It's very complicated, and it's very difficult to separate it. So they're actually not perceiving themselves as I don't know, too much successful. They are more perceiving those cells as they can manage time and value time and better way than others. And basically, this is the biggest difference. What is specifical for them, is that they're doing that in private life as well. So they can prioritize their responsibilities, let's say, regarding their families, regarding their child, regarding their wives regarding their friends, so they are practicing their free time with everyone. And this is when it comes to the challenge. Did I did it well, and sometimes I need to make a decision, which is not beneficial for others. Michael Hingson 08:37So you had mentioned that a lot of times they they know, they're wealthy and so on, but they're not necessarily happy? How do you how do you? How do they deal with that? Or how to how do you help them deal with that? Djuradj Caranovic 08:50The best way of dealing is to understanding what they can control and what they cannot control. And then what they cannot control to leave it as is and then focus on what they can control. Usually, the things are that they are closely involved in their everyday life with business stuff, and then it's very challenging to organize personal life and not to reflect on their business part of the life. So, in practice, we are trying now to utilize all the resources they have, and is it delegating? Is it now AI is the technology is it finding some other ways and trying to combine as much as possible personal time for them, so they can control their personal time in a way they can schedule more with their families and they can focus more or the children or something, what they want to do with their time. And it's very long term agenda from one part and they are not so patient. So we need to create micro motivations with them, which means we need to utilize, it's not like days or hours is basically minutes. And it's very special to them that you need to utilize every minute in your day, how to focus on what actually want to do in that particular time. So it's very challenging to understand their way of thinking and what is suitable for them, and not as a traditional therapy, to have some tools or to have some known structure and then put it on that path. So you need to customize the path and you need to customize the way of doing things with them. And you need to fully understand that they are not leaving challenging life and not leaving. They're having a feeling of abundance all the time. But they need abundance of the time for their loving ones. And this is the focus we what we are now creating is feeling of abundance with their Lovings. Michael Hingson 11:22So a lot of happiness issue comes when they're able to recognize Yeah, I'm very good at earning money, I make a lot of money. And that's wonderful. But there's more to life than that, and working with family, and spending more time with family and taking control of personal time and recognizing the value that that brings. That's, that's a lot of what will make them better people, I would would think you're saying yes. Djuradj Caranovic 11:55And additional on top of it. Many of the decisions for them are difficult decisions. Let's say that, I need to prioritize my work beside of my children, which means I will see less my children, and I will be more on the work, which is not so usual, and it's not. So let's say in the real world, you will have a lot of judgments to dealing with that. But not everybody understand the amount of responsibility they have towards the world. They're living, let's say, some of them are hiring, like 20,000 people. So they're responsible for the 20,000 people. And it's not easy decision to privatize 20,000 employees in one way, or to privatize, I don't know, spending half an hour with my child. How do they deal with that? badly? Badly. And actually, they're trying somehow to steal the time, you know, they're pushing to have 25th hour in a day. And they're trying to combine things and they're trying to be as close as possible to the families physically at least. And then they will pick a time for their children or wives or family matters, not just the work related stuff. Because their day is planned not like today, usually some of them they have planned like two years ahead. So so it's not like I can relate my schedule in one or two months is just BS, you know, it's upfront one or two years. So you need to schedule a lot upfront and to understand that their way of living and responsibilities are long term, not the short term one. Michael Hingson 13:56Can they deal with things like hiring 20,000 people? Can they deal with that better if they do a better job of delegating responsibility and find people they can trust to do a lot of it so that they can really devote time to the other things that are going to make them happy as well? Exactly. Djuradj Caranovic 14:17Trust is a big part of them. Trust is a big part of them, and they need to be there. It's very difficult to gain the trust from that kind of people because you're used to Michael Hingson 14:30it. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. They're not used to trust. And I like something else that you said, which is all about learning to focus on the things that you can control also, and not worrying about the things that you can't. I know having survived the World Trade Center and afterward, I'm beginning to talk about it. That was one of the common things that I began to discuss a lot because we are so afraid of some Any things and most of the time, we have absolutely no control over them. And we really ought to learn not to worry about those things because we don't have control over them, we're not going to have an effect on them. And, and it's time that we learn to let those things go and focus on the things that we can, because it will make us a lot happier, and will really be able to deal with the control. Djuradj Caranovic 15:23Yes, exactly. And what actually I'm dealing with is, today, the average point of view is from some sort of perfection. So either it's good or bad. And to get to that point that you are aware of what you can or cannot control. And that's transition from putting some things that okay, I'm fine with that I cannot control and putting some things fine, I can control this. It's a long journey. And it's very difficult one. And there is many attempting challenges regarding every individual that I have on my sessions, and they need a lot of time to find their own authentic path, how to deal with it. So basically, they are having gone that path, a lot of mistakes as well. And they have a lot of trains, how to do it. And my job actually is to support them that they endure during that process. Michael Hingson 16:27How do you teach people to be more open to trusting and creating trusting relationships? Actually, Djuradj Caranovic 16:36it's a practical way to teach people for that. So I currently, the best way how to do it, is to have this micro macro a micro motivation, which is some kind of homework. And then to start with the things that it's not so dependable or not, so have high value impact in your life, let's say in the store, to gain the recommendation from unknown people, or you are asking advice for someone you need online from some expert or something like that. And then you're trying to prove that he is right, or actually that his advice or her advice is beneficial for you. And this kind of small steps, steps actually building trust with you and your system to recognize what is trustworthy for you and what is not. So I'm actually pointing out that this calibration and the system is if something trustworthy or not, it's with you or not with them, basically, because first people want to see and somehow are 14 the trust with outsiders and not with themselves, and then putting that system back on them. The best thing or the most responsible thing for that is to have the ownership of your mistakes and your decisions. And this is the difficult part so you can own your mistakes first, then you can gain trust from others, at least in your Michael Hingson 18:19life. Yeah, I know, I talk a lot about working with dogs. I've had eight guide dogs in my life starting back in 1964. So it's a long time ago. But one of the things that I learned a lot of people talk about dogs saying that dogs love unconditionally. And I think that there's a lot of truth to that I think that dogs do. But what dogs don't do is trust unconditionally. But the difference between people and dogs, I believe, is that dogs are unless something incredibly horrible traumatizes them, dogs tend to be a whole lot more open to trust, then people do people are always going well, what's the agenda, you've got a hidden agenda or whatever, and they are very suspicious. Dogs are more open to trust. And I think there's a lot that we could learn from them about that. Because if they're if they if they convey the message to you, they're hoping to trust which they do. And you're wise enough to experience that and see that, that you can establish an incredible bond, which is what I and other blind people do with with guide dogs when we really understand the whole idea of trust. But it starts with the dogs being open to trust, which is something that's very hard for us to do, especially nowadays where there's so many crazy things happening in the world and we've got to get over that. Djuradj Caranovic 19:45Yes, actually, the dogs are a very good example because the dogs are teaching us how to love by actions and not by words because I have a dog as well as Second of all, the dogs are teaching us how to cherish the now moment. So not the past, not the future, I will do it later, it doesn't function well with the dogs. And as well, they are teaching us because most of the dogs we will outlive, then it's teaching us how to cherish the time we have with them and to have these rich experiences during the day with them. So it's, it's similar with people. If you have the awareness of your time, and that it's not given it, you need to experience the gain experience through your day as long as possible. Because through them, you'll be learning a lot. And this is what people currently use forgiving, or forgetting that they have very little amount of time freely. Most of them are on the work, then we have eight hours asleep, then we have some agenda regarding if you have family, surround the kids, and then you have one or two hour basically for yourself. And we are so easily giving away that watching TV or having some passive things to do, and not actually starting to building that control part of our lives, which we can control at least couple of hours or half an hour at least. Michael Hingson 21:42Yeah, and I, I hear exactly what you're saying. And they're the dogs are great teachers, even though they may or may not think so. And one of the things that I think dogs are great at teaching us if we choose to understand them, and observe them and work with them is they're great at teaching us how to build teams. Because like with with me and my guide dogs, the dog has a job to do and I have a job to do the dogs job is to make sure that I walk safely. And of course, that means the dog has to walk safely. But it's not the dog's job to know where to go and how to get there. And I don't want the dog to know that it's really important that we each respect each other's job. And dogs. Dogs teach us that which is so wonderful. Djuradj Caranovic 22:33Yes, yes, yes. Well, I think if we allow people or animals around us, we can learn a lot. But we are so focused on on some what's next, and not on now. And this is the issue. Michael Hingson 22:54I had the pleasure of interviewing someone fairly recently. And we were talking about this whole idea of personal time, work time, and so on. And what she said was that she is very specific and volitional about making sure that she deals with her personal time she deals with her children and her husband, and she has made that a priority. And I think that's part of the issue is that she has worked so hard at it, that it has become a habit to to do the things that allow her to spend time with children with husband, her personal time, and at the same time still be able to do the things that she might have to do and so far as work is concerned. But she has made that decision to make that happen. Djuradj Caranovic 23:48Yes, exactly. We need to be a little brave to make the decision because for every decision, there is a price. And we just need to have the awareness what the price and what will impact on us. And that's it. Right. Michael Hingson 24:14Well, you went to college, right? Yeah, yeah. Right. And when you got out of college, what did you do? Djuradj Caranovic 24:22I started as in the financial department, and I was financial controller. And that allowed me to learn everything about budgeting, PNL and financial side of the business. After that, I was project and Product Manager. And for that, that allowed me how to understand the business actually is building the market side of the business and how they are building the products and how they're organizing the processes regarding the products. And after that I was a change manager, which means I was dealing more on the people side regarding the cultural change and organizational change. And that bring me closer to the people to understand how they are gaining, or pushing the resilience, taller the innovation and some new processes, some change, because the natural way of the people is too afraid to be afraid of the change. And to be a little bit more aware what will happen because we are creatures of the routines. And that's actually corporate part of my life allowed me to be a business coach, because I fully understand the business side and fully understand what is what the what are the needs and components to have a successful business. However, I believed as well that not so many people organizations are dealing enough with the people side, so I trust myself and focus more on the people side. And then my psychotherapy education was actually encasing me how to understand their thinking and how to actually create the tools that better help those in place. And after that, I was starting to have these in house trainings, and to deal more with the corporations. But I was understanding that it's, I'm sharing my knowledge or impacting only them. And then after a while, then I was starting to deal with CEOs and with higher management, because then through one session, you can influence a lot of other direct people. And you can influence the way of thinking on the top. And it was very faster way in the corporate environment to have the influence immediately of some changes. Well, Michael Hingson 27:09you have, you have a lot of background in finance, and as you say, behavioral economics, which is an interesting blend of skills and knowledge. Yes, Djuradj Caranovic 27:20yes. Because I was always thinking to myself, and I know that when I was searching for my therapist, I was searching someone who will understand that I want to work and I like my job. However, I need to a little bit help to balance it, not to be more focused on the job and not to be focused on my personal life and emotional life, however, to be realistic about it, so it not to be in a way that you know, it's you should be working less and more focused on your emotional life because you will be happier. Because in that point of time, I didn't know how and I wasn't aware how exactly it will influence my life. And then because of that fear, I was not fully, let's say, motivated to go that path. And that's one of the things why I started to go in some different direction, because I'm starting with feeling and I'm starting with understanding that the in the real life, we need to work, the financial freedom is very challenging to help as well. We have a lot of decisions in the past that influence influence that our now as well. We have currently some decisions we cannot do immediately, we need a little bit to build ourselves, to change the job to change the environment. To focus more on ourselves, we need to create this space for that. And my way of therapy actually is more realistic one, I want to say it more pro practice one, which means I'm more focusing on functional way of living than how it should be in some perfect environment. Michael Hingson 29:27Well, you you make it very clear that it is important for us to find ways no matter who we are, no matter how wealthy we are, we need to find ways to have time for ourselves or for the things that are important to us or should be important to us outside of work. Work is great, but that's not all there is in the world and and I know that there are so many people that think that well, I'll work and I'll deal with things later on and it doesn't it does. That's not the way to do it. It doesn't work that What Djuradj Caranovic 30:00exactly? Yeah, exactly. But as well, we need to understand them why they are thinking that way? Because there is there is reasonable arguments why, who is focusing more on the work, because he has a loan to pay, he has installments for the easy because the family, he wants to provide the best for his family. So it's not like just to judge them because of their decisions or to say, Yes, you are currently more focused on your work, you should be more focused on your emotional side or the family side. And then let's do it right away. No, you need to understand what is in real life possible to do it, and then create an environment or the frame, which he will not lose himself in that transition. Michael Hingson 30:52It's a balance, and it will, it will always be a balance, but we need to balance it is a unique balance. Yes. It's the unique balance for everyone. You said something a little while ago, I want to go back to I love to talk about it. You said that. We in life, the natural thing is to resist change. And we need to learn about that. Is that do you think a natural thing that we're that is hardwired into us? Or is that something that we learned? Because everybody keeps talking about? I hate to change? Is it a learned behavior? Or is it really natural to the point of view that what we have to do is to rewire our brains from a natural thing of resisting change. Djuradj Caranovic 31:37Actually, it's called cough, because our cells are built that way to preserve energy. And every change every creating some other neuro parts in our brain actually are using more energy than it should be. And then our body resist it, because the body is built to save the energy. This is the biology biological part. And regarding the learning the change, of course, it's not just the learning is our past experience regarding how we communicate with ourselves. So if we was consistent with ourselves, in the past experience, it's easier for us to change. If you weren't not, it's difficult for us because our mind knows that, let's say if he said, I will now walk a dog. And I don't do it. My brain is registering that, that I thought to myself that I will do something and I didn't do. So this past micro experiences are a little bit blocking us how to do it and and how to change and to be willing to change as fast as we want. Michael Hingson 32:55Yeah, it is something that we can learn to do. Yes. So. So given your expertise in finance, and the other things that you do behavioral economics, for example. So how is all of that affected? How you work? And how does that make you function better as a wealth therapist, and I want to really talk about the whole concept of wealth therapy. And what is that? Exactly? Yeah. Djuradj Caranovic 33:33First thing, how it goes. Most of those ultra wealth, people are sharing this many of their stuff. And then you cannot immediately talk with them. You have a couple of people first to talk with. And then they're like filtering, are you suitable for them or not? And basically, the first thing is you need to understand their business side, you need to understand what they're doing, why they're doing that. And from let's say, from which way their wealth is coming from, is it generational wealth, is it something they build their ourselves? Is there something that is family wise? So you need first to understand that the second thing you need to understand is their schedule, why their schedule is such a busy schedule and why they're not having so free time for something they would want to and not to perceive them as successful people not perceive them as people who has wealth, but to perceive and understand why their schedule and why they routines are the way they are. And from that point, you need a little bit more understanding on the business side on the base. His processes of the how actually the company is functioning in why they are the crucial part of it. This is the first part. The second part is when you are dealing with them, you are having, let's say, one hour in one month. So you need to utilize that one hour fully. It's not like every week, we will have a session and then he will talk. No, you need to be very practical with them. And to understand this fixation of the now they have, you need to understand every part surrounding them and their environment. So that's why you need to have this understanding of behavior of the consumers and the customers, you need to understand the business processes, you need to do understand the decision of the human making. And then you need as well to understand what they want to accomplish. And they're usually not so patient people. So you need to have like, step by step guidance, exactly what you're expecting for them. So they can behave and put in their schedule, and all of it to combine into one, you don't have to learn just as a psychotherapist, and you don't have to learn you're just the behavioral economist, you need actually to have the experience intense parts of the puzzles. So you can be most effective. You Michael Hingson 36:38have to relate to them, and they have to recognize that you really relate to them. Yes, Djuradj Caranovic 36:43you need, they need to trust you that you exactly know why they are doing something. Michael Hingson 36:50Yeah. Well, the it does get back to trust and in every sense of the word. Well, so how long have you been out of the corporate world as such, and and, and running and operating your own business as well therapist and business coach. Djuradj Caranovic 37:09Regarding business coach, I'm I having like 11 years of experience and and I'm, I'm probably combine that with my corporate work. Regarding therapist, I'm not so experienced in it, I have two years of experience. And I'm trying now to comprehensive it with additional learnings and additional knowledge that I can conquer through some, let's say supervisions. And through some modalities, they are more focused on wealth therapist and that part of the world, let's say. But however, I don't believe that they don't need just another one therapist, they are not searching for that they're searching for the person who can somehow walk along them. So they call it they have a saying they want high level partner. This is the same game in their environment. And they want someone who will walk alongside them and understand the business side, the private side, the family side, and their personal personal deep personal site, like a character site. And for that, you need a lot of focus. And you need a lot to researches because it's not common. When they ask a question you need to find the solution and not to offer them some generalization or explanation. They don't want that they want the solution. So you need to customize the solution especially for them. And then you need to utilize all the resources you have, like one professional one, emotional one. Learning from other clients, learning from my colleagues, I'm utilizing it all reading the books, whatever I can combine, and they actually want to debt that you stamp cow, build yourself enough that you can influence and they can trust you of your influence to their everyday life. Michael Hingson 39:31It you have an interesting road that you have to walk because as a coach, typically, your job isn't to give them the answers but to guide them to discovering the answers for themselves. But as a therapist, you're more involved in in helping them with answers. So it is an interesting challenge to balance those two. Djuradj Caranovic 39:53Exactly. So they don't want the therapist to ask them questions and then they think of it because they don't have free time in their mind from that. They want a quick solutions. And he wants how what I can do now to be a little bit better. This is it. So they don't want some perfect solutions. They don't want some Yes, you can narratives. They don't want some emotional support to guide them through the process. They want a quick solutions. But Michael Hingson 40:25it doesn't work that way. Djuradj Caranovic 40:29Yes and no, you okay have a quick fixes. And you can ensure to feel better, and you can in short, or fix some things. But you are not fixing the core issues, and you are not fixing the big picture, actually. However, you need to be a little bit tricky with them. And you need a little bit to have ability to manipulate them. So you're offering a short term solutions, but actually what you're doing, you're building a big picture. So after a while, they understand why they did it in that way. So you need to be a little bit to outsmart them and still be in every quarter be before them. So they can be very trustful regarding the final outcome. Michael Hingson 41:20Yeah. That's an interesting and probably probably a really good way to put it. Well, how about for you, you? You're you're doing a lot of work? Is there a story you can tell us or some pivotal moment that really cause you to operate the way you do today? I mean, something probably was happened that that gave you the inspiration to do what you do. Djuradj Caranovic 41:47Yeah, actually, in my life, I was first not so satisfied with myself. And I try the first step is to be better through learning and then I went to NLP, then I went for the coaching then for the psychotherapist. And only in second year of my training regarding the psychotherapist with personal development, which is a little bit different from the therapy because you're focusing on the issues more they can really reflect others, then you combine to understand that some part of me cannot be changed. And I need to learn how to live with it. And some part of me can be changed. And this is actually the first thing of me that I understood that I will not be as a perfect imagination that you will be better better and better. No, you will be better better and better than yourself yesterday, but not in this general public view as it is advertised. This is the first thing the second thing I really I am as a man, very practical. And I really wanted to find for me, the therapist who is practically and who can help me with my self and my personal development, how to gain it more step by step and not to ask my myself only the questions, and then to wait for the answer. This is the part of it I was waiting for. And I had a difficulty to find one. And I found a woman could help me a lot. And actually what I was striving in that point of time is when you are thinking like small percentage people really change and you're listening that only, I don't know, 1% of the people who are going to therapy really changed. And you have the talk like that. And I was some sort of narcissistic way to be that part of the people. However, I learned that I don't need to be that part of items, no 1% I can be very general just to be aware of what I can do and what I cannot. And what I'm not feeling that it's good for the others to be aware of it and to control it. And basically that point of view I was very cherished about because I think it's very realistic. Because now in the days you have too many judgment is it not cystic? Is it like this? So is it toxic? Is it I don't know what they're using on the social networks now, and it's not so simple that you are good or bad, actually is the space between what you should deal with and every day is day four for itself and you can choose in that day. Should you be good or bad for You, how do you feel about it? Because many of the people now understand through many clients are not feeling good because of their bad decisions. They're feeling bad of it, but they did it anyway. So I am learning them, how to be aware that in the next situation that they're feeling eager to do something bad and to have the bad decision, to be aware of it and to stop it. And it's not that he can change or she can change not to have this feeling to go that way. Or everybody's perfect. So actually, the therapy is lowering or hiring the probability of doing something good or bad. Michael Hingson 45:41So I hear what you're saying. And there has to be a lot that went into you getting to the point where you are able to articulate that do you do a lot of and do you currently encourage people to do introspection that is taking time every day to think about what they did that day? And what they could have done better? Or even in the successful things? Could they have done some of those things better? Do you do really encourage people to no matter what is going on take some time at some point it during the day to think about what they're doing and why it works or doesn't work? Djuradj Caranovic 46:24Exactly. So basically, the first step, at least the clients who are coming to me, is they're having the feeling that they're not drinking enough. So my day is not so let's say interesting, I know she has so much enjoyable experiences, I'm wake up going to work then coming home than I thought or watching TV or doing something going to gym at least. And they have these routines, and they are not happy about it. And actually, the first thing is to first step for them is to accept that it's okay not to feel you know, everyday that should be like Disneyland, this is the first step. The second step is that you understand why it is like that, what is the behind it, and how you can introduce some interesting things and to be more brave about searching what what is interesting for them. And on that journey, they will make a lot of bad decisions, they will make bad plans. But at least in a bad plan, you can focus on mistakes, and not focus on yourself. And basically, this is the shortcut. And then after a while, three or six months, it depends on the issues. They are then willing to accept now I'm satisfied how I organize my day. And now I need to enhance myself to have more richer experience in my life. And this is the general path. Yeah. Michael Hingson 48:04Well, it's it's interesting. Do you do you find that people resist introspection, especially the more wealthy they are, the more money they have, and and all that the harder it is to get them to recognize that there's a need to do that introspection? Yes, Djuradj Caranovic 48:24because they have a really good arguments that they're right. So basically, I had the client and he said, I'm such a good people. And actually, he was manipulating people with money, because they understand the needs of those people. And then he buy the solution. Is it the new house? Is it helping with their shelter needs? Is it helping with their families or something like that, but they're buying the solution to that people? And they didn't recognize that as a manipulation. They recognize that as good man. And it took a really bold, you need to be very brave and bold to to push an influence that kind of people to understand that that kind of manipulation may be outside is perceived as a good man, but because they're not feeling it for for them. It's not being a good man. And this is what it comes. When Michael Hingson 49:31are you able to go ahead? Djuradj Caranovic 49:33Yes. Okay. So they need to understand first to listen their inner self, and to understand what for them is a good man and not for others. And because of their status and influences. They are taught from young years how to be good in the public, but not so much taught how to stay good with themselves. Were Michael Hingson 49:59you successful in getting him to recognize that and getting him to step back. And then Djuradj Caranovic 50:05it was very funny story because it took us four months for that. And after four months, he finally didn't do something. And he was feeling awful. And he was feeling like, but why I didn't do that. And I said, because he was honest to yourself. And in from that point of time, actually, we gain trust. Until now he was testing me a lot. And he was arguing that he his way of doing things is better for himself. But after a while, we gain back to helping others, but to be honest about it. So I'm helping others because I can, and not because I'm a good man, I'm this is totally different things. Michael Hingson 50:57I'm curious, he, you said he was testing you a lot, and so on, why did he even consider working with you as a therapist, and as a coach, if he was that way, because Djuradj Caranovic 51:08my modality of therapy is very direct. And I am not allowing anyone to talk something in which he doesn't believe. And I don't allow my clients on session to talk something which I don't see relevant for the issue they come came from. So I'm really narrowing the frame, and putting them in the corner, as they said. So they cannot get out with arguments and as much intellectual people is he can combine Vegas, why he's doing this as the way he's doing. So this is what he liked. This is the first thing. And the second thing is because I was understanding his business way of life, let's say, and business part of how the business is influencing influencing Kim, and what will be without the business part. And he really, he told me that not everybody understood in that rough way roadway of things. And he likes it because usually are trying to because of his status, I'm trying to be a little bit more softer and polite and a little bit more understanding of their behavior. And I'm trying not to be I'm trying to mirror indeed, and to be raw as possible. What Michael Hingson 52:45was it that made him decide to even talk to you in the first place? Djuradj Caranovic 52:52Actually, it was quite a coincidence, because some of their staff Googled me on the LinkedIn. And they found me on the LinkedIn. And then first interview was with him. And he really liked that I wasn't selling humanity, I was actually talking to him like, he is the client, not his boss. And I was very affirmed what I can offer and what they cannot. And he really liked this practical and simple way of doing things. This is the first thing then the second thing was, he was really amazed about my understanding exactly. Of his organization of the lives and his priorities. And then after I had the first interview with him, I was very direct with him. And I said, Look, you this is the questions what you're asking me is wrong. You should ask these questions if you want the answers. But again, I don't know. Do you want the answer or you want to listen what you expected me to say. And, and he was very honored about my directness, and at the same time. And he was actually shutting me off because we talked over the phone. And he was I cannot talk with you now I'm very angry by and I was actually feeling that I lost the client because of it. But one week later, he called me and he said nobody talked to me like this. I want to cry. Michael Hingson 54:34So he finally decided to take a step back and think about it and probably there might be a little bit of he was really looking for what you offered all along. He just wasn't ready to admit it. Yes, Djuradj Caranovic 54:47exactly. So that's why you need to be very transparent about what you can offer and you can you must be very direct and it's very difficult because even I have this are fighting me? Because I'm aware of his rage. And Michael Hingson 55:06tell me about your book. You're you're writing a book, it's about to be published. Yes, they'll tell me all about that. And what is it going to be about? And what do you want people to take away from it? Djuradj Caranovic 55:16Actually the book, everybody around me, my friends and family. And when I was talking with people, they said, You should write a book with your experiences in life, it's very interesting. And I was not so sure that I'm able to write the book that I will be good at it. And I wrote, I think now, it took me three years to write it almost three years. And for me, it was very rare, some sort of retrospective of my life. However, I as well input, how should be done and not how I did it. So they have like a cheat sheet regarding some situations in my life. The book is called the book that changed me. And actually, it should be like personal development, guidance, with not my experience and thoughts, but my awareness that there is something that that is bigger than me. And this is the sharing the knowledge. And with sharing my experience, with my professional combining with my professional knowledge, I was able to combine the both, you know, like their biography from one side, and then some solutions and some behavior from the professional side. And after the three years, I went to some publishers, and I was rejected, and to be totally transparent, I was feeling really hurt and vulnerable because of it. And then after a while, I talked with my supervision, and the institution, when I finished my education, and they said, Come on, it can be too bad to me to read it. And I said to them, and after two weeks, or three of them say, Look, this is perfect. This is so original, we really liked it, we would like to publish it. And they said, Okay, let's go with that. And what I really liked about it, the way how they review it, they send it to the sticks. outers have some similar topics. And then they got the feedback. And they said, if the four of them said, this is a good one we will publish. And if not, then you need to change something. And actually, they I put it in my book as well, the all six videos, four of them was very, let's say, I really cherish the words they put it. And it was very beneficial for me. And two of them was no throw, because it was my first book. And they told me that maybe I should first start with ebook or something less than a fully book. But again, I said, Look, I have this in front of me. Yeah, so basically, it will be published first week of February, something like that. It will be on Amazon. It will be mostly there will be audio and digital copy as well. Oh, good. And I Michael Hingson 58:45sorry, I say good. It'll be audio as well. I'm looking Djuradj Caranovic 58:49forward to Yeah. And And actually, what I'm trying now to feel what will be the reaction from the public. So I'm eager to have the second edition which will be incorporated with the feedback because I think the books will be something live and so be a little bit non biased. Damaged by outer but as well influenced by others who read it. So this is my way of thinking. Michael Hingson 59:20It's interesting. It's an interesting title of the book that changed me. What did you learn? What did you learn and discover it by yourself while writing it? Djuradj Caranovic 59:29I discovered that I was very lucky to go through some experiences which are very hard, like changing my relationship with my parents, like changing and gaining awareness of myself. Like understanding for me, what is love? What is emotion? In which way I like our bond to love in betray, I want to be loved this is totally different. I as well understand in which way I can influence people, but not because of my ego. But because I want to share myself, and not to be the guy who helped. But to share myself. This is totally different. And as well in somehow structured my experiences, so I can now pull it and use it as resources for my sessions and with my clients. Michael Hingson 1:00:33Well, it's a testimony to self examination and introspection by any standard since you, you wrote the book. And obviously, you had to give a lot of thought to it. So that's pretty, that's pretty good. Yes, Djuradj Caranovic 1:00:47yes, I hope everybody will like it, because there is a practical examples of everyday life and everyday situations we all have, especially in conflict wise, especially in what questions to ask myself, especially how to support myself. So there is a tricky question of understanding and not judging. And as well, it's a practical way of understanding not to have like a perfect model, you shouldn't be like this. And you should be gaining your parts over that. No, you should be as you want. And you should have your own paths. Because I, I want us to gain awareness that actually in your life, you are not going on your path, you're actually building your path, and that you have this ability to build your path. Michael Hingson 1:01:47What do you see, as far as trends in the future for wealth therapy and personal development? Djuradj Caranovic 1:01:54I see many help from the technology part, especially artificial intelligence, because you can automate it some questions, and you can automate it in a way that you immediately have some correspondence regarding, usually the that kind of people are wanting the solution now. So after the sessions, or between the sessions, they like to call you or to send you a text message, or something. And then artificial intelligence helped me to prioritize their needs, because I cannot be available all the time. This is the first thing. The second thing is actually many of them are now understanding that their role model of their children's, and they're asking questions about how can it cause the secession? How can the the success proceed and stressor to the children not the same way they deal with it. So they are now more aware and focused about the parenting, they're now more of a and focused about how to perceive their own emotions. And what I really like is they are now more focused about the same kinds of spiritual development, or I call it spiritual intelligence means something greater than them, which is very crucial for them. And Michael Hingson 1:03:29it's important for them to recognize that and for all of us to recognize that that spiritual intelligence and spiritual growth is definitely a part of our lives. Yeah, so So very quickly, tell me a little bit more about this idea of artificial intelligence and how it's helping you. Djuradj Caranovic 1:03:46Currently, I'm recording or the sessions, and I'm creating, like summary of the average bullet points. And it helped them because he can relate to them as the notes. And then if he doesn't remember something, or he can, he can recall, I don't know, some set sessions before, let's say three months ago, so it's faster to them to gain that. The second thing is, I'm now starting to develop a little bit of behavior analysis, which means when you have a session, I'm focusing more how it's nonverbal communication he's doing or she's doing, and then focusing to show them through the video and to argument them with the notes. What is influencing that and how it's perceiving their way of doing things or their nonverbal communication? Because most of them are not aware of nonverbal communication. Usually they're only aware of the verbal one. Michael Hingson 1:04:50And AI is helping you create the notes and create a Djuradj Caranovic 1:04:53friendly blink automatically and I'm a human, and I cannot perceive everything thing, but AI can receive, like 60 points. 64 points in a second. Yes. Which means it's, I don't know, triple me Michael Hingson 1:05:14allows you to spread yourself around a little more. Yeah, yeah. Well, well, George, I want to thank you for taking the time with this if people want to reach out to you and and talk with you maybe learn more about you as a coach or a therapist, and so on. How do they do that? Then Djuradj Caranovic 1:05:30find me on LinkedIn, this is the best and the fastest way to find me on LinkedIn. I have other social networks, but I'm not so frequent on them. Michael Hingson 1:05:40So what is your LinkedIn name? How do they find you on LinkedIn? Djuradj Caranovic 1:05:44Djuradj Caranovic, he calls basically they can dress type, wealth therapist time, there is only a couple of guys with that title so they can find me very easily. Michael Hingson 1:05:57Can you spell that for me? Well, therapist, therapist, okay. I was thinking Djuradj Caranovic Djuradj Caranovic 1:06:04Djuradj is D j u r a d j C a r a n o v i c Michael Hingson 1:06:13Okay. Well, I hope people will reach out. And I really appreciate all of your time, and the insights that you've given us. So thank you very much for being here. And also to you listening, wherever you are. Thanks for listening as well. I think that Djuradj has given us a lot. Djuradj Caranovic 1:06:33I'm very honored to be part of this. Michael Hingson 1:06:36Well, if any of you would like to reach out, please do so to church. And if you'd like to reach out to me, I'd love to hear from you. You can reach me at Michaelhi , m i c h a e l h i at accessibe A C C E S I B E.com. Or go to our podcast page www dot Michael hingson.com/podcast. Michael Hingson is m i c h a e l h i n g s o n love to hear from you and Djuradj for you. And for you listening. If any of you know of anyone else who you think ought to be a guest on unstoppable mindset, I would really appreciate you letting us know. And we will, we will get them on. So that would be great. And wherever you're listening, please give us a five star rating. We appreciate that a great deal. Thank you very much for doing Djuradj Caranovic 1:07:26something for your audience as well. Whoever contact me from your audience and say that he learned from it from the podcast. I he will have first session free. Michael Hingson 1:07:40There you go. So if you'd like a session, just say you heard about Djuradj from unstoppable mindset. Super, I appreciate you doing that and I hope people will reach out. Well, Djuradj thank you once more for being here and for taking all the time to be with us today. Djuradj Caranovic 1:07:58Thank you very much. Michael Hingson 1:08:06You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com . AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

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I would like to introduce you to Barbara Anne Gardenhire-Mills. She had a decent childhood, for the most part. She was raped and also gang raped, but as she learned to be unstoppable and gained strength from these experiences, she grew into a fierce advocate for women and then later for other marginalized groups. Her story is quite amazing. To me, the most amazing thing is that she is quite willing to share her story if it will help others. She will tell us all about her philosophy on the subject. For a time she worked in the insurance arena and then went into other endeavors. Over the past 20 years she has been a coach, trainer and consultant to over 2,000 companies and, as she says, she has assisted countless more in various ways. Barbara’s story and life lessons demonstrate how someone can make the choice to be unstoppable. She lives in Mount Loral, NJ with her family. If you ever meet her, don’t mess with her as she is quite proficient in various martial arts styles as you can read in her bio. I hope you gain wisdom and knowledge from our conversation. Barbara Anne is a gem and a wonderful person to talk with. I hope you feel the same. About the Guest: Barbara Anne is a “Solutions Navigator” and servant leader who has directly assisted over 2,000 businesses in the past two decades and provided training, coaching, and technical assistance to countless more companies, teams, entrepreneurs, and individuals throughout her career. She is the founder and owner of Purpose-Filled Solutions and Evolutions LLC, a business consulting and leadership coaching company that partners with people, leaders, companies, and agencies to find their "why" (core purpose), identify resources, navigate challenges, change mindsets, and develop and implement plans to achieve their visions of success, with an emphasis on civility, inclusion, equity, and diversity (CIED), her unique alternative to current DEI approaches.Barbara Anne also serves as Director of Compliance & Engagement for Cooperative Business Assistance Corporation (CBAC) in Camden, NJ, and hosts “What The Why?!? with Barbara Anne,” a weekly talk show on RVN Television, Roku, and more. Before her current roles, she served as the Management Analyst and Community Liaison for the U.S. White House Promise Zone Initiative in Camden, NJ, stationed at the U.S. Department of Housing & Urban Development (HUD), and as Supervisor of Lender Relations and Economic Development/Women's Business Ownership Representative for the U.S. Small Business Administration (SBA) New Jersey District Office, and in other leadership roles in the corporate, non-profit, and municipal government arenas.Barbara Anne holds an M.S. in Executive Leadership, a B.A. in Political Science/ Honors with concentrations in Pre-Law and Women's Studies, and an A.A. in Liberal Arts with a concentration in Business Communications. She has completed multiple professional designations and adult continuing education certificates, including her Professional Certified Coach (PCC) certification with the International Coaching Federation (ICF), Certified Professional Coach in Executive Coaching from RCSJ, and certifications in talent optimization and implementing Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion (DEI) in the workplace.Barbara Anne serves in volunteer leadership capacities with ICF’s NJ Charter Chapter and Braven, and she is a member of ICF Global, the Association of Talent Development (ATD), CDFI Women’s Network, and other professional and civic organizations. The National Association of Women's Business Owners (NAWBO) – South Jersey Chapter honored her with their 2016 “Women's Advocate of the Year” award. She is also a Second-Degree Black Belt and member of the Okinawa Goju-Ryu Kenshi-Kai Karate-Jutsu Kobu-Jutsu Association and trains in multiple other martial arts styles. Ways to connect with Barbara: Email: info@Purposefilledsolutionsandevolutions.comPhone: 856-313-0609Website: https://www.purposefilledsolutionsandevolutions.com/ Personal LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/bgardenhiremills/Purpose-Filled Solutions & Evolutions’ Social Media Links Through LinkTree: https://linktr.ee/purposefilledcoach"What The Why?!? with Barbara Anne" On-Demand: https://rvntelevision.com/tv-show/what-the-why/ About the Host:Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children’s Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association’s 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.comhttps://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/https://twitter.com/mhingsonhttps://www.youtube.com/user/mhingsonhttps://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ accessiBe Linkshttps://accessibe.com/https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBehttps://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can also subscribe in your favorite podcast app. Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts. Transcription Notes

Michael Hingson 00:00Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us. Michael Hingson 01:21Well, and hello, once again. Welcome to unstoppable mindset. I'm your host, Michael Hingson. Or you can call me Mike, it's okay. Just Oh, I hate to do the joke, just not late for dinner. But anyway, here we are. And today we get to talk with Barbara Anne Gardenhire-Mills. Barbara Ann is in New Jersey has an interesting story and things that she's doing as a coach and other work that she is doing. And also, I'm going to give it away and she'll talk about it anyway. Barbara has had a couple of bouts with COVID. And actually just got through with one but she has a lot of wisdom about long COVID And actually already and just talking with her before we started this I learned some things I didn't know. And knowledge is always useful thing to have. So Barbara Anne welcome to unstoppable mindset. Barbara Anne Gardenhire-Mills 02:12Thank you so much. I am super happy and honored to be asked to be your guest today. I'm really looking forward to our conversation. Michael Hingson 02:23Well, then we ought to have one right. So tell me about maybe the the younger barber and growing up and all that let's start there. It's always good as they say to start at the beginning somewhere. Barbara Anne Gardenhire-Mills 02:34Yes. Start at the beginning. So younger Pribram was born in the late 60s to Maryland and Joseph, a biracial couple. So when my parents got married, still wasn't even legal in some states. And I was born right here in New Jersey, Jersey girl my whole life. And my my five foot three Caucasian mom and my six foot three. Black dad, African American reef. Yeah, they met when they were in college. And while my mother's family was very, very not in any way any color in the family tree has recently improved by one to three me my father's family was always very integrated. And I was the first of four children. My mother and dad had me and my sister exactly 16 months apart on purpose. I think that's insane. I can't even imagine doing that these days. And, and then there was three other siblings that would come along the way. One of whom died shortly after birth because of complications. And it was interesting. I grew up in an apartment complex that wasn't then but is now officially designated as what you would call affordable housing. And a small little, I never thought of it as rural growing up, but they call it rural. It was Vineland, New Jersey. Ah, and it actually is the biggest city in the state of New Jersey in terms of land size, all 69 square miles of it. And but definitely in southern New Jersey. And this is at a time when a lot of the highways and systems that exist now didn't even exist in its parts of South Jersey. And it was like its own whole other world. Anybody who has any familiarity with North and South Jersey knows how vastly different the two are the right down to the accents. And you know, we you know, had a good upbringing, the Things were going well, when it's time for me to go to school, because of the time that it was was you talking about early 70s, I was bussed as part of a program to make sure that they were, you know, equally distributing children aka schools. Which was really interesting. When back in the days before there was cell phones, in fact, my parents had a party line. They accidentally put me on the wrong bus. That was fun when you're in kindergarten. Yeah. But probably one of the earliest tragic things that would happen to me what happened when I was seven. And it's interesting, because I, my mom said, I've always been a forward planner, I've always been very rational, but also very even tempered. And she likes to tell stories about how you know, at a time when I was 14 months, I spilled a bowl of popcorn and I sat there at 14 months old, individually picking up each piece of kernel of corn and putting it back in the bowl. And when I was when I started walking it at nine months, and around 1112 months, we were out walking, and I saw a dandy line and I bent over and I pulled it up, I had no idea that would kill it. I picked it up and I sniffed it, and proceeded to put it right back in its exact place where it was. And so all these years later, she still loves to tell that story because I was very methodical and particular and had my routines and my processes. And then 10 days before Christmas, just after my seventh birthday, my father was killed in a car accident. And here was my mother, at the age of 28, widowed with four biracial children, the oldest of whom was seven and the youngest of whom was only had just been born on October 27. And that would be one of many pivots, in terms of that would define my future going forward. Okay, how Michael Hingson 07:09did you how did your parents, your, your grandparents deal with you? Maybe at the beginning, you said that they on your mom's side, we're not really oriented toward having biracial or any color in the family did that mollify at all especially towards you as you grow older, Barbara Anne Gardenhire-Mills 07:30not till I was much older. In fact, when my dad died, my grandfather, who was an Episcopal priest, refused to let my grandmother even can be with my mother, her grieving daughter, because as far as he was concerned, she was dead to him. Michael Hingson 07:51I have just never comprehended, of course, I've been blind my whole life, baby. And I regard it as a blessing. But I've just never understood this whole issue of color, and skin color having any significance to anything. It's just crazy. But Barbara Anne Gardenhire-Mills 08:09for the most part, it wasn't even a thing until the mid 1800s. In terms of, you know, I can't think of his name right now, because I'm coming off of my long COVID relapse, but a British scientist, was the one who kind of artificially constructed and classified race. Yeah. And there were a number of people, including Alexander Graham Bell, who bought into some of those theories. Yeah. And but before that, it really was just more of a familial designation, in terms of what country you are from and royalty was royalty. So they intermixed all the time. You know, there was how we understand things now really, are an artificial construct, which is one of the foundational pieces of what I do in my work as it relates to civility, inclusion and equity and diversity. But in that time, my grandmother didn't come my aunt didn't come they were in Florida. My dad's family. My dad was the youngest of six and he was a sports person he had played for the Eagles, arm team and he played basketball and everybody knew who he was. And his family stepped up and stepped in by her family was non existent. I would finally meet her sister a few years after that, and we have a good relationship. I only ever met my one uncle on her side once and I have a necklace that's handed down to my mother was. Her maiden name was aptly As in former Prime Minister Attlee of England, and so they were very particular, he was very much. Interestingly, it was almost bad that he married my grandmother. He was very much a white Anglo Saxon Protestant male, who married my mother's mother, my grandmother, credibly beautiful woman, her name was Ruth Fogarty. And like, parents off the boat Irish, her dad was an Irish house in New Orleans. And, and they had three children, and my mother was the oldest of them. And so dad wasn't so thrilled and dad ruled the household. And I finally met my grandmother right before I turned 12, because there's a family necklace that's handed down through the Fogarty family line to the to the oldest female on their 12th birthday. And so she was permitted to come see us and, and transfer that to me. And then right around the time I turned 16, my grandfather decided to have a change of heart, and that he was wrong. And I would meet him a couple of times between 16 and 19. And then when I was 19, he passed us was very awkward, I agreed to go to the funeral for my mother. But that was probably actually one of the biggest fights we ever had to because I had very strong feelings about being forced to go and mourn someone that had done, what I now understood had been the things that he had done over the course of her life in mind. But I, you know, she she said, incredible person. So my mother, who I'm I've ever been, I don't know who it is, but I don't like she tends to be much more private. She watches everything I do. But I don't usually name her for her own privacy reasons. You know, she would raise all four of us on her own, she never remarried, she went back to school, because she dropped out when she married my dad, and then had me, you know, urina. She got married in February of 67. They had me in mid November of 68. So she decided to go back to school, she completed her associate's then her Bachelor's than her Master's. And she went on to teach at the college where she got her nursing degree. And all of that joined the military before age 40, to become a nurse. And for the US Army, reserve corps, so she did a lot of really amazing things on her own, with me, helping out along the way, as the oldest child. So I learned to do a lot of things very young, that I probably wouldn't really be able to do now, in terms of watching siblings, cooking and cleaning, and things like that, but things that were otherwise really common at the time. And another big part of our lives was the church that we raised in. And because the whole family, my dad's family, was involved on both sides, my family were involved in the clergy, but the brother and cousins that we were most close to, went to the church where we went to and so they became a huge support system for my mom. And in a very interesting indoctrination process for me, that I would spend the better part of my teens and early 20s trying to undo. So that's the very early I, you know, we went to a private Christian school on scholarship. And when my mom graduated, they said no more scholarships. So I went to public high school, and did really well. You know, but I felt like I had been kind of thrown into this weird alternative universe where I had been used to being one of the only children of color in an entire school. And now I was in a school that was pseudo integrated. Different kids tended to be tracked based on their intelligence, but also, in part based on their socioeconomic status and, and race. And on my very first day, when I went to go in with the few kids that I didn't know, into the school cafeteria, I was stopped at the door and I was told that only the white kids ate in there, I had to go to the other cafeteria with the black and Spanish kids. And I was like, what, what are you talking about? And they were like, You eaten here. And that that was not something that my high school fixed for almost another 15 years when they finally decided to assign cafeterias, and eliminate a lot of staff. But other than that, I did choir, I did drama, I did all the things that I loved to learn, had its really great friends. And then couldn't afford to go to college. Now that my mom was working, I didn't get enough aid, and I wanted to be a doctor. And so I ended up getting just enough grants to go to community college. And then I went to work full time, and we went to school full time at nights. I went to work for Prudential insurance company, and they paid 90% tuition reimbursement. And I worked there in policyholder services, answering questions for agents for 10 states. Here I was, you know, the ages of 1819 20 ensiling complex insurance questions back when everything was in these little books, we would have to pull the pages out. And to replace them to update them. We covered all of New England and most of the East Coast with the exception of New Jersey and Massachusetts along scope Michael Hingson 16:36guard. So this was like 1987 88. Yes, exactly. Barbara Anne Gardenhire-Mills 16:408788 89. And, and then one of the next major pivotal things in my life happens. Having been raised in a very fundamentalist religion, I had never been involved in any kind of a sexual relationship. And I got raped. And what was interesting about it, other than the fact that it was pretty bad and it was somebody I knew, I got angry. And that's, that pivoted me into advocacy. And I became a speaker. I spoke on college campuses, I spoke at my high school. I was like, oh, no, no, no, this is never going to happen to another woman. Right? Yeah. This is just not okay. And, and then I had this whole world of advocacy opened up for me. And it's funny, I'll never forget, I ended up changing my major. Because my political science class and my sophomore year of college, the professor has put a list of all of these different characteristics. He said, Well, what describes a typical politician and he was what in New Jersey, we now call commissioners, but back then we called them freeholders freeholders held land. And we put all these characteristics on a board of what a typical politician is. And he said, Georgia class, he said, Okay, everybody, if you aren't, at least, almost all of them, if not all of these, you never, ever, ever have a chance of holding any kind of high office or elected office in government. And I looked at him in my stereotypical, defiant way, when somebody says I can't do something, and said, Oh, really. And I changed my major to political science that week. And I would later tell him after I graduated from political science honors from what is now Rowan University, with concentrations in pre law and Women's Studies. I would eventually tell him go back and tell him that he was the reason why I changed my major. And he was just so blown away. He's like, Oh, wow, I'm so odd. Really told him why. And guess what, like many politicians, he ended up having an affair with a staffer and losing his his seat and his wife in the process. So I guess he was so much more like, far too many prostitutions back then, than what was listed on the board. Michael Hingson 19:31Do as I say, not as I do. Barbara Anne Gardenhire-Mills 19:35When I go ahead, no, go ahead. I was gonna say when I finished college, though, my first job right out of college. As I had left Prudential to go back full time to finish, which was good because by the time I got done Prudential no longer existed. They had moved their job offices to Jacksonville and have the office that I would have worked at had I stayed there like so many people said I should. Of course they He told me he really shouldn't leave this great job. And I said, Okay, really well watch me. And so again, I answered an ad in the newspaper. And I ended up going to work for the city of Bridgeton, in my field, actually working for the city in a new role for called the Community Development Block Grant sub recipient monitor. And my job was to create the infrastructure for monitoring funds from a community development block grants that were distributed to organizations in the community as a whole host of other things. And that was the beginning in 1992, of my 31 year career, other than one, brief six year return to insurance after having my son, my otherwise 31 year career in community and economic development. Michael Hingson 20:59So you got married along the way? Barbara Anne Gardenhire-Mills 21:02I did, but not yet. I stayed for a while. Yeah. Which is a really great question. I, I just wasn't ready. Yeah, I, I was in this I was in this weird world of, I was too white for most black boys. I was too dark for most white boys. I was not Latina. But that was what I was most often mistaken for, because of my skin tone and where I grew up. And, and I was often just a novelty, somebody wanted to be able to say that they had tried being with a black girl. And in 2012, when I was 23 years old, that culminated actually, in a second, much more serious rape scenario with a guy that I had been seeing. Who knew about the first one, we'd had conversations about the fact that his sister had been through something similar. And then myself and a friend went to a party at his house, and they, I didn't even drink, because I didn't want to be in that situation. And yet, I felt like I was drunk. And it didn't. We didn't talk about things like being date rape drugs, and things like that. But yeah, it was, it was bad. And I remember bits and pieces, and they were just kind of joking that they all wanted to know what it was like to be with a black girl. And, um, so I was very protective of myself in many ways for many years. And when I met my husband, I was in a, I was long distance seeing someone he was seeing somebody else, we could care less. And then we would be reintroduced a couple years later. And I was at a point where I was like, I just not I can't get involved with. I've had all these bad experiences with white guys and black guys. I just know, I was seeing a guy from Puerto Rico at the time. And as my husband likes to say, he just had to convince me that he was the only thing missing from my life. So he did what every other guy who wants to be with somebody does, he became a really good friend. And then we would end up finally getting married three years after our first date, which was a disaster, by the way, because our first date was literally the day of the very first Million Man March. Oh, and I said to him, What were you thinking we had ended up getting into a political conversation and realized we were about as diametrically opposed as one could be. And that's what he thought about. What was he thinking when he asked out a young black urban professional, he said he didn't know because he didn't realize I was black. He thought I was lucky not then. And then one of the jokes of that evening that still gets repeated to this day, I said, oh, and I suppose you haven't marched? And I suppose you've marched in a militia too. And he says, well, not lately. Now he was he had been on the north on a Civil War reenactment militia militia, but my husband would really appreciate your sense of humor. So no, in spite of that disastrous first date, next month, we will have been married for 25 years and together for 28. Any he was so everything I was not looking for at the time, which is probably exactly why it worked because I after all of those other experiences I had decided to find out. And we did, we got married. And, in fact, I was executive director of a nonprofit housing organization at the time, and it was selling, it's celebrating its 25th anniversary. So we postponed our talk about understanding guy, he's always supported me and said, You go be you. We actually postponed our honeymoon, so that we could get the anniversary banquet and celebration out of the way, and then go on our honeymoon without having that hanging over our heads. So he knew what kind of person he was getting together with. And he was he was fine with that. And so yeah, and we would go on, and I would have, we would have one son. And that was another pivot. This year, I was, at this point, I'm now running an organization that the nonprofit that I was with helped start, I'm used to like going around the country, and conducting training classes in housing counseling, and homeownership education for housing counselor is for the federal government on going all these great places. And then along comes this son, who God purposefully gave me to prove I have absolutely no control over anything. I remember Oh, my gosh, it was it was something else. And remember, and of course, you know, being a slightly older mom, at this point, I'm 33. Having a geriatric pregnancy just didn't sound right. At all, I'm like, Oh, my God, I've I've tested I'm sitting there in tears one day, like, how is it that I could testify and in front of the state legislature and congressional hearings that I can't get this kid to go to sleep? What is wrong? Barbara Anne Gardenhire-Mills 27:10got through it. I went back to the insurance industry. took a pause. 911 happened. I remember you. I remember seeing interviews with you on Larry King. And you know, one of the reasons why we chose our son's name, Colin, which is, the original Greek word for courage was after that happened, because we had, as you probably I know, you can relate based on having heard your story. I worked in Trenton and so there were people, a lot of people would commute by train. So someone I grew up with was lost. Very, very close friend of ours, his cousin was lost. But then there were other people that were actually supposed to be there that I was friends with, for various reasons that, like interviews were cancelled. A friend of mine who worked in Jersey City was supposed to cross over to work for Wall Street Journal, he was supposed to be there that morning, it got postponed to that afternoon. So many people that had so many close brushes. And so Colin seemed like a really good name. And, but it also drastically affected our funding as a nonprofit, because all the organizations where we were basically redirected already committed funds to World Trade Center efforts. And which is why to this day, I'm still firmly believe in cash accounting, and not the cruel accounting. And I went back into the insurance industry for six years. And it was fun. And I was underwriting manager for a company here in New Jersey. And and then, we unmerged with our parent company merged with another company and a whole bunch of changes started happening. And I ended up going through my next major pivot. I decided to leave a role where I was having a lot of difficulty with someone who was actively sabotaging my work. And so I decided to take a lateral move left a team of 19, several of whom were in extreme tears to help go create another department. And that behavior continued constant, what we would now call bullying but there was no such thing as bullying in the workplace. Right? And that would culminate in him. physically assaulting me on the job in a conference room full of leaders in front of witnesses. And he herniated all the discs in my neck. And what was really interesting about that is all of the other things that I had been through. They were emotional, and it was easy to recover. But the physical injury that I went in for a while I, my neck got everything swelled up so much I couldn't walk, I couldn't feel my feet. I couldn't function it was was incredibly painful. All of my C spine discs, were either damaged or bulged. And you would think, with so many people having witnessed it, it would be a no brainer, he would get fired. That's not what happened. Yeah, I was gonna ask. Yeah. That's not what happened at all. I would later find out through notes that he was giving a an a one time final warning, but this person had had a history of inappropriate behavior. And everybody would just chalk it up as to being that person. And so he had been there 20 years I had been there, three, and they decided that I was the one that needed to go. And they did what we used to call an insurance terms and other corporate terms called circle the wagons, protect their jobs. And that got ugly, very, very ugly. And Lisa Halloran was my hero. She was my, she taking the job was supposed to be a director was downgraded to a manager, which then downgraded me from management to consultant. And so she had only been there six months when this happened, she had transferred from another office. And in full integrity, she stood by me. Even when she personally was threatened, she stood by me. One point, she was told by the Vice President, I'm trying to save our jobs, you need to get in line. And she said, I would rather lose my job and be able to sleep at night, and do what you're asking me to do. And fortunately, for me, even though that left knee permanently partially disabled, I was able to find specialists, they did pay for one disc to be replaced. I did, New Jersey has binding arbitration, and the company pays for it. So there's not really much of an incentive for a binding arbitrator to actually rule in the favor of an employee. And they had argued in court that assaults were not not considered eligible for arbitration, but then tried to argue, in arbitration, that assaults belonged in court and the judge saw right through it and sent them all and joined everybody together, inviting arbitration and what was interesting is they lost. Wow, they lost and what what the ruling basically was was that the assault aside the way I was treated, including having ignored blatantly and openly admitted to ignoring their own grievance procedures process, that they had made a bad situation worse. And the funny thing is, then they then filed an appeal. At which point the arbitrator scathingly said, what part of binding arbitration Didn't you understand when you asked for binding arbitration? And they would eventually shut down all New Jersey operations. I, there's lots of rumors, I won't speculate. But yeah, almost everybody lost their jobs, all the way up to the top, including the New Jersey president. And I went back into government nonprofit work, and that's where I've been ever since. Michael Hingson 34:26You know, it's the insurance industry is a fascinating place. The reason I said early on that you joined in the insurance world in 1987 1988. Something like seven years before around 1980, maybe 1979. Probably 1980. Somebody in the National Federation of the Blind, which is the largest consumer organization of blind people, was at a meeting of insurance people Sitting next to a person from Prudential and said to this person, I think it also had to do with the National Association of Insurance Commissioners, but anyway said, you know, insurance companies won't provide life insurance for people who are blind. And this guy said, Yeah. And the person who I knew said, Well, why don't you do everything that you do based on evidence to actuarial statistics and evidentiary data? And you have mathematical models for everything? And the guy said, Well, absolutely. That's how we make all of our decisions. And my friends said, Well, can we see the evidence that says that blind people are a higher risk? And the guy said, Sure, no problem. Six months went by, without any indication that there was anything. And finally my friend said, so where's the evidence? And the guy from Prudential said, Well, we were working on it. We haven't found it yet, but it's there. And my friend said, you don't have any do you? You have been discriminating against blind people and other persons with disabilities is it eventually expanded. But you've been doing that simply based on prejudice, and a mistaken belief that we're a higher risk without any evidence to show for it. And on the other end, we as blind people know, we're not a higher risk. Well, what that eventually led to was a campaign in every State of the Union at the time, I was living in Massachusetts. So I ran the effort for the state of Massachusetts for the National Federation of blind in Massachusetts. But to get every state to pass a law that said, you can't discriminate against blind or other persons with physical disabilities, unless you can provide actuarial statistics or or evidentiary data. And to this day, of course, no one's been able to because it doesn't exist. Yeah. It wasn't scientific at all. It was prejudice. Yep. Barbara Anne Gardenhire-Mills 37:00Absolutely. Absolutely. And my husband had worked in that industry for a while. And yeah, and it both in the life insurance, but also in health and also in property and casualty. To be honest, at one point from in 95, and 96, I had gone back to insurance company, because I was recruited from a nonprofit specifically to help with a pilot program where they were reentering the urban environment to because they had stopped insuring in most cities, urban environments, because of flat roofs, and the fire risk that they support that they had. And my boss, an amazing person, his name was, Andre Howell had conceived of this idea that if we worked with people to help mitigate risk, we think that they'll actually perform well. And he was right. And we worked in a very specific target targeted neighborhood of Philadelphia, and offered like free inspections, and all kinds of things. And, and part of my job was to track the performance of that. Now, this was for all state at the time, and I will name them because at that time, they had lost more money in Hurricane Andrew than they had made in the history of the company. Yeah. And this is a program that they would eventually roll out across all the states. And I had been serving on the National Insurance Task Force which dealt with access, availability, and affordability, affordability of insurance and regional or in a metropolitan as well as rural areas, because there's a big issue with rural areas too. But interestingly, a division of theirs decided not long after I got there that they were going to start mass canceling and a non renewing policies in the state of New Jersey. And the actuarial logic behind it was they looked at all of the people who had had not an accident, apparently you get an accident every five years, they looked at all the people who had not had an accident within a five year period determined that they were due and decided that they were going to use a loophole in a tooth what was called the two for one law. For every two g non renewed you could take one new customer and they just started, guess what group hasn't had a car accident within a five year timeframe. Disabled people, seniors and those who only use vehicles for pleasure use. So here I was in the government relations divisions of a company whose state subsidiary was mass, non renewing disabled and non working individuals. We had agents that were losing clients like 90 a week, and of course, those individuals were taking other business with them, I've never. And this is on the heels of them having gotten in trouble because somebody had made a very inappropriate comment about why they wouldn't cover repairs to a property for a same sex couple. So it was a rough period for them that they would eventually overcome. But really just, that was some of the eye opening for me in terms of why my advocacy needed to be so much broader than just around women. So Michael Hingson 40:28is that what sort of really led you into dealing with the whole issue of inclusion and equity and so on? Barbara Anne Gardenhire-Mills 40:36Yes, because I had now at this point, I had worked. in Bridgeton, I had worked in Cherry Hill Township, I had worked in Camden, I had worked in Philadelphia, looking at all of this, I'm seeing all this happening, I'm looking at people use numbers in ways that they should never have to use them because they had their own proprietary insurance score. And I had to know that model. So I had to know what went into it, so I could teach it. And I realized that the problem was so much bigger than even the different things that I had in my life that were intersectional in terms of being a female being a woman of color, you know, I wasn't even dealing with the disability yet at that point. And, but just other things, and, and hearing the way people would talk about people, as groups and status as individual human beings. Michael Hingson 41:34You know, it's, oh, go ahead. Barbara Anne Gardenhire-Mills 41:36No, go ahead. Michael Hingson 41:37It's amazing, just how, as I said, Before, people do as I say, not as I do, how people behave, you know, and most people don't think about their own disabilities, all of you who have eyesight, and I've said it several times on this podcast, have a disability as well, your light dependent, just wait till the power goes out in the building, and you got to go off and try to scrounge for a flashlight or a smartphone. The thing is that, because so many people think that eyesight is really the only game in town, our society collectively, has worked really hard to make light on demand, a fact of life everywhere. And so we've spent basically 145 years developing this technology to make light on demand available, pretty much in a ubiquitous sort of way. So most of the time, you have light on demand until you don't like when I was in a hotel in March. And I've seen it other times since then, before being a building and settling, the power goes out and people start to scream and they don't know what to do. And the fear comes in, and I'm sitting there going so what's the problem? The the issue is, you guys are light dependent. And the reality is disability should not mean a lack of ability, because it's not. Disability is a characteristic that every single person on the planet has. And what we need to truly understand and do is to recognize that the characteristic manifests itself in different ways for different people. It doesn't mean it's not there. So let light cover up your disability, but you still have it. And you can say all day long, you don't. But you do. But but we're too arrogant sometimes to really address that and deal with it. And it's so unfortunate, when that happens so much in our world today. But but the fact is, that's that's the way it is. And so I talk about it, probably more than some people would like on the podcast, because I want the message to be heard by everyone. That disability does not mean lack of ability, and everyone has that characteristic in one way or another. For my part. Barbara Anne Gardenhire-Mills 43:51Yeah, go ahead. Go ahead. No, no, no, I was gonna say AB so lute Li and I loved hearing you talk about it, on the podcast that I listened to in the speeches that I listened to. Because disability disabled individuals are among some of the most discriminated individuals in this country. And that's planet. And, you know, when you were talking about what happened to you as a child in terms of what the doctors told your parents, you know, a lot of people don't realize that in this country in this country, till as recently as 1979. They were sterilizing women to keep certain women from being able to reproduce, because it will pollute the gene pool with disabled disability character, and Michael Hingson 44:37there were courts who backed that up. Yes. And supported eugenics like that. Yes, exactly. Barbara Anne Gardenhire-Mills 44:43And so, you know, I mean, depending on it had I didn't born in a different state, God knows what would have happened. Yeah. But you know, in California was one of the biggest ones. And, you know, a lot of people don't know that because we don't talk About those parts of our history, but whether I was paying attention, I'm really good at listening. And I realized that it's naturally human beings tend to want to group things. They all want to be seen as individuals, but they want to put everybody else in groups. And you could say, you know, people talk about, you know, different immigrants being stupid. I'm sorry, How many languages do you speak? Because they may be struggling in English. But most, most people I know, who have immigrated here know at least one if not five, or six. My Spanish is terrible got Mexico, to for my honeymoon. I mean, people who have all these diverse people, we are all wonderfully and perfectly made, depending on whether or not you believe in God, we've written to flee imperfectly made in God's image. Yeah. And if the Bible says God makes no mistakes, who are we to think that any one else is any less? More superior, less, less superior? Or that we're more superior than anyone else? Michael Hingson 46:19Well, except that in Oh God, George Burns said that he made a mistake, because he made avocado pits too large. Yeah. Oh, my God to sneak that one in. Barbara Anne Gardenhire-Mills 46:34Which is funny, though, only. But Michael Hingson 46:37I hear exactly what you're saying. The fact of the matter is, and kids especially I was talking with someone earlier today. And we were we were doing another interview, and we were talking about children and growing up and how kids are, are fun loving, they are full of adventure. And they don't have all of these agendas. And it's so unfortunate that we teach this in so many ways to children, and they grow up with these these horrible attitudes to a large degree, and there's no need for it. Children aren't evil. But we make them that way. Barbara Anne Gardenhire-Mills 47:17Well, we could say that about a lot of things, right? I mean, a thing is a thing. It's, it's how we use it. Now, children are born a blank slate, it's what we write on it. Right. And the younger, we can undo that the better. And which is a huge part of you know, you know, like I said, my third pivot was was my most recent pivot after going to grad school. Because I was determined, I was going to get that master's degree before I turned 50. And then getting long COVID. I was like, Okay, you're still here. What are you going to do with this? And I said, well, since grad school, I've been talking about it, because here I am this black female who's been, you know, the first list the first you know, first black female here at first black female there because I was lighter skin, I was palpable, which gets into a whole other issue. And I didn't say quote, unquote, sound black or growing up, the black kids would say your family talks white. Half of my family is white, all my cousins are all interracial. That was my way my dad's family was three possible shade. So it was just normal to me. But then in the post Obama era, it was a little bit more normalized. For a while, oh, if I had $1 for every time somebody said, Oh, she speaks so well. I'd be very, very rich. Well, Michael Hingson 48:45if I had $1, for every time somebody said, you're amazing. And of course, what they're really saying is, especially for a blind person, you know. Barbara Anne Gardenhire-Mills 48:53And so after getting COVID, and realizing I was still here, and seeing the spotlight shine on all things that were broken with our health care system, and then some, for anybody who was a person of color, who had an existing disability. Some of the things that I experienced. I actually had to I was like, Mom, you deal with the hospital, you're a nursing professor, you're Caucasian. They're not listening to me. You just deal with it, because they're not listening to me. Because there's so many of us continue to have to deal with ongoing symptoms before anybody would acknowledge that that was a real thing. The and so many people who are in the disability community, we're right in there with us. We're all in there together finding each other and social media and Facebook groups, because no one would listen to us. Mm. That's when I was like, Okay, it's, you're still here, you're here for a reason, it's time to get vocal about everything that's broken in this country about how we treat each other in general. And as the person of color in many organizations back when it was still called affirmative action. And having been part of integrating teams and corporate and government agencies, and seeing the narrative shift. Over the years, I was already getting concerned. And then when everybody was exposed to what so many of us knew, in the death of George Floyd and others, while everybody else said, Okay, stand up, this is a time for celebration, people are finally going to live, learn, change is going to happen, companies are issuing pledges everywhere, we're finally going to get the change that's been coming. And me, I'm on a webinar, still in very deep throes of long COVID with massive cognitive issues. And I said, here's my concern. And I meant to say backlash. I said, the black lashes coming. And that stuck. I see, I see, give it time. People know, when things aren't authentic. People know, when change is being shoved down their throat, people don't like being told that they're responsible for things that they didn't have happen. And saying, Now, you know, how it feels to be me is not the right response for that. And people started reading books about anti racism and all these things I said, I'm telling you, and then I repeat it, I said, I'm gonna keep using the word the black lashes coming since 2021, on record in a webinar. And now we have what we're seeing in Florida, and other states, and book burnings, and Supreme Court decisions. And all of these things as the pendulum swings back from one side to the other. And companies are eliminating diversity, equity inclusion programs, and people are leaving this fairly new kind of practice, for lack of better words. I mean, they've been, it's been slowly been evolving from diversity, diversity, inclusion, diversity, equity. And, and I've been saying for eight years, we're doing it all wrong. doing it all wrong. At no point, in over 20 years, if I ever brought a new hire into a situation without first addressing what needed to be addressed in house to create the environment that would make it possible for them to succeed, we should be doing it differently. And then, of course, after my assault, I was like, we have a serious civility issue. Just in terms of me, you can only legislate how people treat each other so much. But we have serious civility issues going on in workplaces that aren't being addressed, for all of the wrong reasons, across different groups. And it's time that we get our houses in order in terms of civility, then focus on creating the inclusive environment that it should be, then look at the equity issues within that environment, then you bring in the diversity hires that you want to bring in to help your company capitalize on the 30% return on investment that most companies that are diverse actually experience when they are run properly. In a truly, you know, culture add way, and then everybody can succeed. Otherwise, they're just hiring somebody that person comes in, they can't function, they quit. Everybody throws up their hands and says, Oh, well, we tried it didn't work, move on. Michael Hingson 53:46Tell me about purpose, build solutions and evolutions, if you would. Barbara Anne Gardenhire-Mills 53:49Sure. It's a purpose built solutions and evolutions while I was in grad school, and I've been doing coaching internally and externally, since 1997. And I was asked, in grad schools, what as part of one of my classes to come up with a two or three word way to describe what I am from a professional standpoint. And I described myself as a Resource Navigator. And because so many of my roles involved, either giving the answers or putting people into the direction where they could find the answers. And so I had been doing everything that you're not supposed to do as a business as a side hustle. And Maryam with long COVID I go ahead, I finally get my international coaching Federation certification that I've been putting off for 12 years. And my coach says, When you get to start a business, you've helped like 1000s of others when you can actually do it yourself. And I figured, okay, so put was filled solutions and evolutions was originally going to be purpose filled solutions and evolutions navigators. But I've refiled the service mark to drop the the navigators, even though I still use it. Solutions navigator was already taken. So I was like, well, everything I do is coaching around the purpose. Once your why what is your core purpose? I know mine, mine is helping others figure out theirs, and then achieve it. And after about three weeks of analysis, paralysis, and finally settled on purpose built solutions, and evolutions, a company that would offer the coaching that I had been doing, but also capitalize on my years of experience in various leadership roles, from supervisor up to Executive Director, as well as my Masters of Science and executive leadership and all that I had learned in grad school with a big focus on fixing what I felt was broken with what I call civility, inclusion, equity and diversity. And my company's turned to in June. And I have a team of consultants that support me, and a young woman that I hired from a program that I served as a leadership coach in breathe and shout out to Braven, which is a fellowship program for college students. I brought her in as an intern, and then hired her as my team. And she was a young woman who came here at the age of three, as part of her parents trying to escape Mexico. And she's DACA. And she's going through the citizenship process. And she couldn't find a job in the DEI space. And so we after a number of things, I asked her apologize for the parking. After a number of meetings, I asked her, Okay, we've had all these conversations about what I feel is wrong with the tape all of the information that I gave you, and then I want you to go and I want you to research and I want you to come back and tell me how you would redo my inclusion, equity and diversity program. And she came back. And she said, I think we need to start with mental health and physical disabilities. So this young woman who herself was an immigrant, who had was given carte blanche to look at everything that we should be looking at as part of a program that focuses on inclusion, equity and diversity, had every reason to throughout her life to come back with any number of options. And that's what she came back with. And I said, Okay, would you like a job as consultant? And how would you like to help me take take the lead and developing this program, and that's how paving the way to civility, inclusion, equity and diversity was born. Wow. Michael Hingson 58:09Well, that is pretty cool. And, and you're even making enough to pay her and everything, huh? Barbara Anne Gardenhire-Mills 58:14I am. That's a blessing. Unfortunately, it works out she's she's part time consultant. She just had her and her husband just had their second baby. And she's on maternity leave right now. But we did our first official full public offering of the program in June, it was very well received, people were blown away. They learned things, of course, that they were never taught and about everything from how the messages are even being manipulated to you know, you know why it's so important to see every person as an individual being and someone who I love Louis Brandeis Griggs was the one who I stole the spelling of it from because I would always say people want to be human beings. And he would always capitalize the B E. In being and so paving the way to civility, inclusion, equity and diversity, a new way of be in, in workplace and in life is our our most comprehensive flagship training program, who Michael Hingson 59:24have been some of the people who had the most influence on you as you're going through life. Barbara Anne Gardenhire-Mills 59:31My mom obviously has been one. I mentioned a couple of Lisa Halloran who stood by me when she had everything to risk. I have to ride or die. Best Friend's one. Unfortunately. Kathy Jagger passed actually. It'll be here next week. She was also a rape survivor and we met when I was 19. She was a little bit older too. She was 32. And we bonded and she was my best friend and mentor in so many different ways. She was the reason I went to work at Prudential. We went through all kinds of things together. And you know, she will she I referred to her as one of the greatest loves of my life. And the other one, her name is Maria Callahan, Cassidy, who she relocated to an amazing new position at Richmond University only weeks before Kathy passed. So I lost I fortunately didn't lose Maria, it's, it's hard because she's not here. But these are both people that I've known since my teens and have definitely shaped who I am. My son, actually, I've learned so much from him. My son is neurodiverse. He likes to say he's not on the spectrum. He broke the spectrum. Well, that's can and and, and he is hysterical and funny and incredibly talented and incredibly brilliant. And helping navigate the public schools where we live. And watching him continue to still get back up even when he was pushed down. Because in our school district, if you are not in the box, you're basically out of luck. So we had to get an attorney for our son when he was only in third grade, to fight for his rights, and the he knows himself. And really, his biggest challenge is he has something called dysgraphia. He can recite things verbatim, but you could give him that same thing to copy, and he struggles to copy it. And that was a very difficult educational experience for him. But now he's a mechanic, he's training to be a mechanic, he wants to own his own mechanic shop, he has a lovely girlfriend, Collins girlfriend is Ariel, they've been together since they were 14 and 16. And now they are 19 and 21. Going on 20 and 22. And she is the daughter I would have chosen. I call her the daughter I got to choose. And I've learned so much because of her a lot of her upbringing is very similar to mine, they say we've we're very careful to make sure it doesn't get weird. But they say you end up with somebody very similar to your parent. Ariel and I have definitely have a lot in common and and then I would be remiss if I didn't say my husband because even though we have a definitely have our different political beliefs. He has really just unleashed me. He, one thing he stands very firm on is equal pay for women after watching some of the experiences that I go through and he is constantly up, go do it. You got to do this, you got to speak up up, you've been offered a show. I should mention Joe Cole, Antonio, my coach, she is the one who did push me off the cliff to get my show by saying I'm booking you on a local talk show. So that you have two weeks, you have a couple of weeks to get ready to go announced your business is finally open. That's the other reason why purpose filled solutions and evolutions came in. But these are some really all unique but very interesting teachers in my life. So Michael Hingson 1:03:36tell me really quickly if you would about your talk show. Barbara Anne Gardenhire-Mills 1:03:39My talk show was an offshoot of Joe pushing me off the cliff, ironically, and we joke because Joe is my husband. But Joe is my coach and also probably one of my closest friends at this point. To Joe to Joe's once God wants J O. And Jo booked me on this talk show called Morning Coffee and gave me a couple of weeks. She said I know you can incorporate a business within 72 hours. I've seen you do it. You're going to do it. And so sure enough, on July 2 of 2021, I went in there. My business was two weeks old. And I announced and introduced myself and my one intern to the world. Somebody else who my son's girlfriend and told them about what I was looking to do and how I was going to change the world and the narrative and be a coach and offer services that I couldn't offer in my day job. And they came back to me and said the response to your episode was so amazing. Do you want to do a show? I was like, I was like I've always been the person on answering the questions or writing for government officials who are answering the questions. I've never been on that side of the mic. They said, Well, what do you think I said, Let me think about it. And I was originally going to call my blog, what the why? Kind of like instead of WTF, WT w. And I said, I have an idea. If you give me full control over who my guests are, would you be interested in doing a show called What the Why, and it would be conversations with diverse leaders from all walks of life, all races, genders, disabilities, ages, and I would interview them about what their purpose in life was and how they figured it out. And the station manager said, huh, yeah, let's do it. And so right now I'm on a brief hiatus because the station is in the middle of a move, but I'm in my second season. Of what the why with barber and and I have, I'm hoping to have you on in like, third season because you are so friggin awesome. And not because you're blind. You're just freaking awesome. Period. You just amazing. I'm completely and utterly amazing. But I have interviewed the smallest of businesses. My oldest guests had been in their 80s. My youngest recently was eight. He is a he's a math genius who video of him doing complex math at the age of three went viral. He was invited to join MENSA fours. Mom submitted it and he was accepted at age five. He and She both have long COVID Cynthia, shout out to Cynthia ad Nagin her brilliant son, Aiden. They're both brilliant. And she founded a health equity agency. And he is officially the paediatric spokesperson. He does not know he does not know his IQ. So cute. He had literally just turned eight a couple of weeks before I interviewed him in August. And one second, he's telling me what I need to understand about quantum singularities. And then the next second is holding up pieces of clay saying look at the ribbon I made. And he's what's funny about the interview we did is all three of us were having a level of a COVID flare up. So all three of us were having cognitive challenges. So Michael Hingson 1:07:24it was like a fun show. Barbara Anne Gardenhire-Mills 1:07:25It was fun. But you know, when you're with an eight year old, you roll with it. Yep. And we just kind of laugh with but he's, he's amazing. He is training to be a chess champion, because COVID has affected his ability to do outdoor sports. And he's homeschooled with a pod of other little young geniuses like Kim. And but I got to talk with the Sunni meet. One of the people I got to interview was the biker from the village people, ah, and the first woman to be the president of the National Association of government guaranteed lenders and, you know, some local elected officials. But then like, I found out a whole side to my hairdresser. And, and his story as a small business owner who's getting ready to hand it off to his daughter, now that he's in his 60s and I know what his journey was like and how his grandparents stood behind him as a black straight male wanting to do hair. Michael Hingson 1:08:28There you go. So you have lots of lots of people. I have one more question for you. This is a very crucial question. How tall are you? Barbara Anne Gardenhire-Mills 1:08:38five foot six. Michael Hingson 1:08:40And how tall is your husband? Barbara Anne Gardenhire-Mills 1:08:42five foot eight. Michael Hingson 1:08:44Ha we did not follow in our parents footsteps. Okay, I just wanted to check that out. Barbara Anne Gardenhire-Mills 1:08:49But here's the flip side to that though. Yeah, they were both named Joe. My dad was a Joseph. My husband is a Joseph. Michael Hingson 1:08:57There you go. And what's your son's name? Barbara Anne Gardenhire-Mills 1:09:00Colin Michael Hingson 1:09:01Cartwright. You said that Yeah. Well Colin Joseph. Okay. So there's a Joseph in Barbara Anne Gardenhire-Mills 1:09:05all of them in my dad was was rather dark for a mixed race man. All three of them are avid outdoorsman. In my husband's not into the same kind of football basketball. My dad was but all three of them were hunters. Okay. married to former vegetarian. Yeah, Michael Hingson 1:09:24there you are. If people want to reach out to you maybe learn about your coaching and and get in touch. How do they do that? Barbara Anne Gardenhire-Mills 1:09:31They can find me on LinkedIn. BGardenhiremills. And you spell it sure it's B G A R D E N H I R E. Mills. I'm on all forms of social media. And honestly, if they can get Barbara Anne garden Hire Mills if you Google that and What the Why it pops up the show airs on RVN R V N television.com as well as roku. And then I believe I forwarded you some some other links to the website. I'm not going to spell out our whole ridiculously long website because I'm actually I actually bought the URLs to shorten it. So Michael Hingson 1:10:26how do I find it on Roku? Barbara Anne Gardenhire-Mills 1:10:28I believe rvn because I don't have Roku that's why it's there. Yeah. But if you go on Roku you should be able to find the channel for RV and television is supposed to be on the Roku channels are and I'll check out under the Roku channels otherwise, RV and television or there's access to it directly from my website, which is my entire name spelled out a moment of weakness. It when I was having COVID Happy hypoxia which is really not happy. But I thought somebody said to me, Oh, let it you just name your website, your company and I thought, Oh, sure. Yeah, well, yeah, well, as if my name isn't long enough purpose built solutions and evolutions because you can't have an ampersand and a website. Michael Hingson 1:11:08No, that's okay. I'm gonna go hunted down on Roku though. That'll be kind of fun. Awesome. Well, I want to thank you for being here. And I want to thank you for listening. I love to hear your thoughts about today. This has been a lot of fun and firebrands, life and lessons are definitely worth paying attention to and I really value the time that we got to spend. I'd love to hear your thoughts, please feel free to email me Michaelhi m i c h a e l h i at accessibe A C C E S S I B E.com. Or go to www dot Michael Hingson H i n g s o n.com/podcast. To listen to more podcasts. But you can also find us wherever Podcasts can be found. And wherever you listen, please give us a five star rating. We appreciate it. We appreciate your insights and your comments and value them greatly. Now, of course, both Barbara Anne for you and for you listening. If you know of anyone who want to be a guest on our podcast, please let us know. We're always looking for more people to come on our podcast. I'm sure that Barbara Anne could talk to you about talk shows and in finding guests. So whatever. We'd love to hear from you and we really value your time and that you took the time to be with us today. And Barbara Anne one last time. Thank you very much for being here with us. Barbara Anne Gardenhire-Mills 1:12:33That an honor thank you so much for inviting me on. Michael Hingson 1:12:40You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com . AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

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I am not sure the term “unstoppable” is good enough for our guest Denise Meridith. Denise was born in Brooklyn NY and, in part, attributes her “get things done” attitude to her upbringing in New York. As a child she wanted to be a veterinarian, but such was not to be. Denise explains that colleges back then didn’t consider women capable of assuming veterinarian positions. So, Denise got a BS degree in Wildlife Biology. She then joined the U.S. Bureau of Land Management where, for 29 years, assumed a number of position including serving as the deputy director. We get to hear stories of her time with the bureau and how she moved around, something that was fairly common for government employees for awhile. After serving with the bureau for more than 20 years Denise was offered “early retirement” due to the long time she served there. After retiring she became the CEO of Denise Meridith Consultants Inc (DMCI), a public and community relations firm. In 2019 she also became the CEO of The World's Best Connectors LLC, a virtual community for C-suite executives that helps other executives enhance their connections with family, employees, clients, government & the media. If running two companies weren’t enough Denise also has formed a 501C3 nonprofit organization, Read to Kids US Inc to promote literacy and family bonding. See what I mean about being unstoppable? Denise is quite engaging and I am sure you will discover that the time listening to our conversation goes by quickly and you may even wish to give this episode a second listen. About the Guest: Denise Meridith is a highly accomplished senior executive, entrepreneur and thought leader, with more than 40 years of success in government, technology, sports, and entertainment. When sexism denied her access to her childhood dream of becoming a veterinarian, she earned a BS in Wildlife Biology from Cornell University and became the first professional woman hired by the Federal Bureau of Land Management. During her 29 years with the Bureau, Meridith served in multiple states and, while Deputy Director in Washington, DC, she oversaw 200 offices, 10,000 employees and a $1.1 billion budget. After early retirement from the Federal government and for the past 20 years, she has been CEO of Denise Meridith Consultants Inc (DMCI), a public and community relations firm. Since 2019, Meridith has also been CEO of The World's Best Connectors LLC, a virtual community for C-suite executives that helps other executives enhance their connections with family, employees, clients, government & the media. Recently she created a 501(c)3 non-profit Read to Kids US Inc to promote literacy and family bonding. During the past 25 years in Arizona, Denise founded the Phoenix Black Chamber of Commerce, Linking Sports & Communities (a youth sports non-profit for 14 years), and was a Governor-appointed member of the original Arizona Sports & Tourism Board. She helped win approval for State Farm Stadium for the Arizona Cardinals. In academia, she taught sports marketing for undergraduates at Arizona State University and business operations for executives at eCornell. As a freelance reporter, she has even written 1000 articles about small businesses. Denise Meridith has won many awards for business and community development in Arizona. Ways to connect with Denise: FREE OFFERS: JOIN DENISE MERIDITH’S MAILING LIST http://tinyurl.com/3ttt5rsu Make your first New Year’s Resolution Now: Schedule a 15-min call to see if Denise Meridith’s Gen X & Baby Boomer Executives Regaining Your Mojo counseling or masterminds starting in January are right for you https://calendly.com/dmci2021/mastering-the-metaverse LEARN MORE ABOUT Denise Meridith: By reading her self-biographies published on Amazon:o Thoughts While Chillin’ https://www.amazon.com/dp/1791662323o The Day a Roof Rat Ate My Dishwasher https://www.amazon.com/dp/1729211127 Social Media: Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/denise.meridith.7LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/denisemeridtihTwitter: @MeridithDP2023 About the Host:Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children’s Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association’s 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.comhttps://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/https://twitter.com/mhingsonhttps://www.youtube.com/user/mhingsonhttps://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ accessiBe Linkshttps://accessibe.com/https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBehttps://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can also subscribe in your favorite podcast app. Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts. Transcription Notes:

Michael Hingson 00:00Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us. Michael Hingson 01:21Well, a pleasant hello to you wherever you happen to be. I am your host, Michael Hingson. And you are listening to unstoppable mindset. We're really glad you're with us. And today we get to talk to Denise Meridith, who has a really interesting story, a few factoids, and then we will just go from there. She as a child wanted to be a veterinarian, but had some sexist issues. And they wouldn't let her do it. I want to know about that. I think the world has changed in that regard. Some but nevertheless, when she was wanting to do it, it was different. She is the first female professional hired by the Bureau of Land Management. And that's fascinating. And she's got a lot of other things to talk about. So I don't think we're going to have any problem filling up an hour Denise. So I want to welcome you to unstoppable mindset. And thanks for being here. Denise Meridith 02:13Well, thank you, Michael. I appreciate being invited. Looking forward to it. Well, Michael Hingson 02:18why don't we start then, with you talking a little bit about the the early Denise the child and all that, you know, what, where you grew up and some of that kind of stuff. And what made you interested in being a veterinarian and you know, we can take it from there? Sure. Denise Meridith 02:34Well, I am born in Brooklyn, like so many people in New York City, a lot of people born in Brooklyn, and then they migrate different boroughs. Michael Hingson 02:43Where are the best bagels in Brooklyn? Well, I Denise Meridith 02:47didn't stay there long enough to find okay. Yeah. Michael Hingson 02:53Well, okay, we're the best bagels and Queens. Denise Meridith 02:55We had so many people grew up in New York City. Every block will have a good bagel. So yeah, Michael Hingson 03:03I know. That's why I asked the question, trying to be cute. It's just like I lived in Chicago for five years. I was born in Chicago moved out when I was five. And so I don't know when things like Garrett Popcorn started. But I know that whenever I go through Chicago, I do need to go to get popcorn in O'Hare. Or if I'm in the city that I'll go to one of the places downtown. We do. We do tend to do some of the things in the world buy our food. What can I say? Denise Meridith 03:29Yes. All right. If that's hotdogs, yeah, that would be asking you where to get their best hotdog in Chicago. Sure. Michael Hingson 03:34When they're in Chicago pizza, which is different than New York pizza, but that's okay, too. Yeah, they're both great. Ah, what a world anyway. Denise Meridith 03:44Yeah, so I sort of grew up in knots, whatever I did grew up in Queens, and I had what I call a Norman Rockwell childhood. If you seen his paintings and pictures, that's pretty much my childhood, but some Boxster ovaries, three houses, that type of thing. My dad had grown up on a ranch in Texas. So that's why he moved to Queens. You want more land around his house there. And so we had a big lot in our house became the center of attention in the neighborhood. We had the barbecues parties. We had a finished basement with a pool table and ping pong table and all that stuff. So we were at the center of things. My dad was a renaissance man, he believe it I didn't ride horses when he grew up. He thought horses would work. He couldn't understand why people rode horses for fun once he became an adult, so instead, he hears the musician. Big bands, he played in big bands, Michael Hingson 04:41what did he play Denise Meridith 04:43any horn and also the drums and also the guitar. Anything he can get his hands on? He was an Army and Army veteran. So I played an Army band as well. He was Avature tennis player, a poet, professional photographer, you name it. You did it. And then my mom was a community organizer. So church, PTA, anything that needed somebody in charge she was it. So when you merge those two together, you get me. So I liked a lot of pay for things. My mom, she belonged to the animal association or now Humane Society. So I had all kinds of pets growing up. So it's logical that I would want to be a vet. Because there's not too many professions in New York. It could be go to Broadway and I did take dancing lessons most of my life. But you could go to Broadway, you could be a doctor, you gotta be a lawyer or bid. That was pretty much it. So I picked the vet, because Cornell was in New York one. Yeah. Got vet schools and world. Yes. When I got up there, I found out that they weren't too keen on women being vets, they were just letting like one woman a year and into vet school. And pretty much to be that woman. I knew it was gonna be me, because there'll be somebody who pretty much grew up on a farm or something, or whose parent wasn't? Preferably who went to Cornell. Michael Hingson 06:08What was what was their logic? I mean, of course, I'm looking at it from today's standpoint, and today's point of view, but what was there was Denise Meridith 06:19physical physical, that went on weren't capable being that's the women, the few that I let them know, you had to be a small animal that they work with horses or anything like that. So which I thought was pretty ironic. Could you pick up all the women, cow girls and stuff? Yeah. Why? Why they would think women in fact, why went to Cornell, I had a lot of offers when I went to Cornell, was because I had the best equine contract program in the country. And I do like horses. So anyway, I got to do a lot of horse stuff there without being a vet, my roommate, actually was from a town, she just wanted to live in a dorm. So no breaks, all the kids go, you know, I guess what I do now biking, or vaping, or something. We would go horseback riding during breaks. So during lunch, or any kind of break, after school, we would go horseback riding. So it was pretty ideal setting for me growing up. And going to that point, the ideal part of it, of course, was what a lot of people don't know about the North. isn't that different from the south in a lot of ways and that I integrated junior high school, all white, you're in high school, I integrate it in a whole white high school. Cornell there were, like 75 African Americans in my entering class of 3000. So I had a lot of experience, being in the first study only our breaking glass ceilings. So that was my growing up. And my bed story how I got not to be a bit of what happened with that was, which was fortuitous, or actually more beneficial was that I wound up majoring in wildlife biology. Have any women but they didn't say they didn't want any women. So it was a lot different atmosphere there. So three women, three women graduated with degrees in wildlife biology. Michael Hingson 08:23What did you do with it? Then when you got that degree? My Denise Meridith 08:27first job was as a wildlife biologist, believe it or not? The Bureau of Land Management. So that was I got to be the first woman in that agency. Michael Hingson 08:37Were there a lot of challenges in getting that job? Or were you pretty well accepted? Right from the outset? Or what? Denise Meridith 08:44There was always going to be challenges. Yeah. Dave, and but essentially, and that was I interviewed earlier today. And it reminded me when you're a senior in college, now, you don't just go online, put in entries, but you would have to write write letters. So people remember that you had to write letters to them and agency companies asking to be considered. And I as a wildlife biologist, there are not a lot of options are state government. Maybe that's not likely because people die in place and the state government openings there. Michael Hingson 09:21So what was what year was it that you graduated? Denise Meridith 09:25I was graduated 73. Michael Hingson 09:27Okay. All right. All right. Yeah. Because I'm thinking of of things like it was much later than that was like 23 years later. Well, it was actually more than that. It was like 26 years. It was like 1999 my fourth guy Doug Linney became ill with glomerular nephritis and the, the emergency vet or actually the specialists that we took her to was a woman in in a veterinarian facility that was mostly women. So, clearly there was a lot of change. But anyway, that Denise Meridith 10:03Yeah, well, it's I would say it's all women. Now you've made pretty Michael Hingson 10:07hard, but very much a lot. It is. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it's Denise Meridith 10:11timing is everything. Yeah, that's hardly very few men anymore. I don't sure exactly why. But there are very few men anymore in that field. So I wrote my letters to places that would harm wildlife people. So Fish and Wildlife Service in a Forest Service and the Bureau of Land Management. The Park Service and Forest Service both told me they didn't hire women. That was pretty plain. And what's interesting now and I talked to younger people, sort of horrified. People could say that then it wasn't. It wasn't uncommon. It wasn't thought to be different, or rude or discriminatory or anything. They. And so now, you know, I wish I kept the letters. You didn't keep going wasn't anything different. Before, right, and forest service offered me a job as a secretary, they liked my degree from Cornell. They thought I'd make a pretty good secretary. So the Bureau of Land Management is the only one that said, okay, and probably I said, it's a perfect storm. Why I got that particular job. That job had been vacant for two years. They couldn't find anybody Michael Hingson 11:21to take it. So they figured what the heck, we'll give her a try. Denise Meridith 11:24Yeah, all right. Gotta have somebody in here sooner or later. So I took that job and which was in Las Vegas, of all things of all places. And it was turned out great with an office, small office 25 people or so in office, the average age was 27. Because nobody wanted to live in Vegas at that time. We had a if you can imagine. People that age in Vegas, we had a great time. We had a great time to that office. And it's a lot of fun. I was one of six wildlife biologists in the state. Because now people have seen all the movies and the shows and everything. But at that time, while kingdom was it, the only show it mentioned, you know, that wildlife Marlon Perkins. Yep. So he was an inspiration to me and everybody who went into the field and at that time, but there weren't many of us. So I had 10 million acres to play with by myself. Michael Hingson 12:26With a lot of fun and what was it you were to do with those 10 million acres? Denise Meridith 12:30Wildlife Biology it pretty much studying patterns and populations, identifying ingredient species, we need to do the preserve them. What the big change for me was I went to school in upstate New York. And my first job was in the desert of Nevada. Yes. Completely different wildlife. So I got to learn a lot about a lot of different wildlife. In fact, the main wildlife there was desert tortoises, and my favorite, yeah, they're nice. And pup fish and the old era. That's about it. Michael Hingson 13:09That's about it. Well, I had desert tortoises as pets growing up. And then we lived in Mission Viejo and California in 1982 through 1989. And my in laws lived, but 2025 miles away in San Clemente. And one day they were outside and a tortoise came walking up their driveway. And they advertise because they wanted to find it. They figured it was so Taurus that belonged to someone and nobody ever claimed it. And I said I would love it. So we named him et turtle because his face was like ET. And he lived with us for for a number of years. And then the gardener left the gate open and he got out but it was fun. He loved cantaloupe. He loved rose petals. Denise Meridith 14:02Yeah, yeah, they're interested in pets. I had one one time that also got out. And it's something you don't think about, you know, think about you know, you think of dogs running away. You don't think your Taurus is gonna run away but Michael Hingson 14:17curious. Yeah. Well, it happens Mukunda What do you do, but by the same token, it was fun when he was around with us. And he figured out that we had a screen door in the backyard that went into the house and wouldn't latch but he figured out he could use his front feet and open the door and come in. That's great. And what he liked to do is go live right in front of the refrigerator because the refrigerator was nice and warm and and that caused great consternation with our cat who couldn't figure out what he was so Denise Meridith 14:55that's good. Well, they're smarter than we think. They are. Yeah, Well, people are asking me today Well, earlier as if you will have a master's degree in public administration, and I said, Yeah, I have a people degree and an animal degree. Yeah. And believe me, the people agree as a lot harder. Oh, yeah. Animals wildlife would do fine on its own. Okay. The reason why we have wildlife biologists is to actually figure out what to do with about the people, much Michael Hingson 15:28more than the animals. You're right. Exactly. So you became a wildlife biologist? And how long did she do that? Denise Meridith 15:36I did that for a couple of years there in Vegas. And then what I figured out was that while being from New York, you know, I'm very decisive, or aggressive or assertive, is that biologists don't make decisions. They make recommendations, I figured that out. It was like, I could do a lot more for wildlife being in more decision making capacity. So I switched from wildlife biology to environmental science, because the environmental scientists are the ones that wrote the environmental assessments, and the rules and regs and all of that type of thing. And so I was able to do a lot more for wildlife, from that position than I did from being a bog biologist. Michael Hingson 16:25Was that also in Las Vegas? Yeah, Denise Meridith 16:27so I did that for two years. And then after that I was on the road I moved at that time, which is different now. Because I assumed government can't afford it. They wanted you to move every three or four years, just like the military. So you did. So that was four years time ago. Again, because still a bit. Some people think the good old days or the bad old days, depending on what side you're on. couldn't really get another job as a first woman. And most of the western areas, they're back east where I was hired in and our job was in Silver Spring, Maryland. So I hopped back after that, I hopped back and forth across the country. Guess where the best opportunities? Michael Hingson 17:18Were you've been in a number of positions where you're kind of the first or first woman to do it. What were what were some of the others? Yeah, Denise Meridith 17:28every job in the bureau after that pretty much was the first. No, I was the first the somebody but I was deputy for resources and New Mexico, Santa Fe, New Mexico. I was associate state director lesson number two person in California. That was great. I was the head person and eastern region, which covered 31 states, West that bordered on that nice for the Mississippi. And then I was the first in only woman. Personnel call a deputy director in the United States, for the Bureau of Land Management. And Washington, DC during the Clinton Administration. That's pretty much in charge. It's a political visit the directors political position. So the deputy is sort of the one that sort of runs things as us almost a CEO type of Ryan. Oh, and that I had 10,000 employees and billion dollar budget and 200 offices. So that was very exciting. Michael Hingson 18:34A little bit more expensive to live in DC than in Vegas. And but but I don't know, today, Vegas is getting pretty expensive. Denise Meridith 18:41Yeah, I guess it's funny because Vegas even then was relatively expensive to other parts of the Southwest. Luckily, I moved to DC, you know, so long ago, and then I kept my house and move away and don't move back. I was in DC a couple of times, luckily kept my house. So it was that the thing with the government. The other reason that government doesn't move you all over the place now is that they will buy your house. And I'm sure they can't afford to do that type of thing anymore. Yeah. If you? Yeah, if you didn't want to sell it, or you couldn't sell it, the government would buy it Michael Hingson 19:16and move you. Do you still have your house in DC now. Now? Yeah, Denise Meridith 19:20I kept it I'd be very well off. But oh, yeah, I left it. So I moved to LA. Well, it's interesting selling my house in DC I could afford two houses. In Phoenix. I didn't buy two houses. Probably should have done that too. But I how low the price of the housing was here. Yeah. And now since pass COVID Since everybody knows that figured out. It's a wonderful place to live. I think it had the highest rise in prices in the country. Well, Phoenix. This past year Michael Hingson 19:54gets pretty hot in the summer. Now I live in Victorville. So we're on the high desert weekend. had over 100 in the summer, but you get a lot more hot for longer periods of time than we do. We'll be in the high 90s Low hundreds or so. But Phoenix tends to get hotter. Denise Meridith 20:12Yeah. Why about saves that has no humidity whatsoever. Michael Hingson 20:15Right? Most cases where I am pretty much the same thing. Yeah. Denise Meridith 20:20So here are the ideal temperature is probably 100 100. And Summertime is fine. Yeah. Michael Hingson 20:27That's when it gets to 110 115. It's a little bit a little bit different. Denise Meridith 20:32And we haven't been having much of that. So I guess climate change. We haven't been having as much of that. lately. Michael Hingson 20:38You did this summer, though, right? This past summer. Denise Meridith 20:41This summer. Yeah. But it was like one stretch. Yeah. Michael Hingson 20:47It did make national news. You're right. But still, Denise Meridith 20:49it was just like, a week or two. And I will trade that for 11 months and perfect. Navi Michael Hingson 20:56I hear you. Denise Meridith 20:59So but yeah, Victorville that was in my my area, you know, and I was I had a California here. So high desert was pretty interesting. It's like two different countries. In Northern California and Southern California. Michael Hingson 21:15Well, in Southern California, the high desert is different than the Inland Empire somewhat and both different than right on the coast. So So what do you do? It's, it's, it's the way it is, but it was 26 this morning when I woke up. Yeah. Oh, not too bad. And it was high was 59. I was pretty impressed with it. It went up by 33 degrees. So that's pretty cool. Oh, Denise Meridith 21:43neat sense of the word. Yeah. And we were having a fit here. Because it was a high was like 59 or 68. We're ready to jump out windows here. It was. I don't know. And nothing is here. We complain about it being cold. But we don't have jackets. You know what I mean? We don't have Cokes? We don't have anything that would make it not fairly that bad, right. Michael Hingson 22:12For a while I lived in the Bay Area. And there were times up in Novato where we could get over 100. But typically, it wasn't too bad. So we didn't have an air conditioner in the summer. Denise Meridith 22:22Oh, wow. Okay. Yeah, I lived in Sacramento. The class difference. Yeah. Yeah, that was hot. But I would tell people, you know, they come visit. And of course, you have to take them to San Francisco. They're coming to visit you. They're really not coming to visit you. So I need to always forewarn them. Okay, San Francisco, it's got to be cool. The same? And still, everybody's surprised and they get the air for Cisco. And freeze. Michael Hingson 22:48Yeah. Yeah. Well, yeah. Like Mark Twain said, he said this. I spent a what a winter there one week in the summer or something like that. But yeah, well, so how long did you stay with the Bureau of Land Management in Denise Meridith 23:0229 years, I was with them. Oh, my gosh, yeah. And I left. After I left the DC current administration, when I was had the 200 offices. And even a 200 officers didn't bother me as much as the issue is in DC. I'm a very, like I said, sort of decisive kind of person, I like results. And DC is not designed for that. You know, it's not nobody's fault. It's just not designed to make decisions. So I wanted to go back where you could actually do things, have projects that are finished, etc. So after a couple of years, I moved to Arizona, where I am now. So I've been here for 28 years. And it was great when I moved back here as the state director, and I wound up designating for national monuments. So helping get the Arizona Trail doesn't made it I upgraded all the RV parks, a lot of campgrounds, etc, etc, etc. So I was able to do things. And I love that. Michael Hingson 24:14And then what did you do? And Denise Meridith 24:16so when I left Oh, they had an early out, which they don't do that anymore, you but they used to say, Okay, have they like every so many years they would say okay, you can leave if you have based on yours, not your age. So guess what, since I started two weeks out of college, I had a lot of years and no age, so I got to retire super super early in life. And what I did is Denise married a consultant Incorporated, which is a public and community relations firm. It's actually wound up doing a lot of the same things, tourism recreation. Thanks for the outdoors I helped. Also well thanks like I Have the get the stadium built the NFL stadium built here. Several other spring training stadiums designated not just a lot of parks and star help get them designated a lot of things like that. So I did, yeah, pretty similar types of work. Except I'm from the private industry president. Michael Hingson 25:22So what made you leave BLM and start your own company? Just because of the out the years? Yeah, Denise Meridith 25:30yeah. Hard to pass that up. Or retire at that age. So yeah, got that. And and you know, it's can make up what I used to preach to people, they didn't believe me, because people go, Oh, government, so boring, and bla bla bla bla bla bla, well, it ceases to be boring when you have a pension and health care. Right. So well, Michael Hingson 25:55I can make it as fun as you want at all. It's all about mental attitude to Denise Meridith 26:00Yeah. And I was less than working for the Bureau of Land Management, because what you had, it's all scientists. Right? So this geologists, it's science, people doing science, happiest people in the world, you know, so I really enjoyed. I enjoyed them, they were enjoying their work, I enjoyed them. It was just, to me a wonderful opportunity to work with people for that long, who enjoy their work. And it's not too many people who can say that anymore. But it was unusual that why in government with our agency. Michael Hingson 26:38So you what, what made you start the company, you just wanted to continue doing the same sorts of things. And that was the easiest way to do it. Or, yeah, Denise Meridith 26:47I probably should have stayed retired now. Now, I've enjoyed what I've done. But essentially, two weeks after retirement, the story was, well, two weeks after retirement. And I'm thinking boy, gee, I can do anything. How does this you know, it's sort of a shock when you're working all the time. And like, when I was in DC, I was on the road 75% of the time, so And Arizona, I travel a lot. Oh, I could do anything. So a friend of mine called and said, Well, why don't we go to the movies, and it was like the middle of the day. And I thought, oh my god, this is good. Go to the movies. So we went to see a movie very bad. Well, I know I shouldn't but and I came back and water was coming out my front door. I've sunburst blah, blah, blah. I spent the next five weeks in a hotel. And so the only thing I can think is that I was lost my mind. Because it had happy hour every night. When I invited somebody else to join, join me and happy hour, and they go, Oh, nice. What is great opening job opened up and I think I had too much wine. This great opening open up but heading up this nonprofit. You should take a look at that. And so I did. Some I retirement didn't last very long. So I ended up that nonprofit. And I've been doing something ever since. Michael Hingson 28:15Just what was that nonprofit? Denise Meridith 28:19It was the Arizona Trail Association. You know, they were one of the longest trails in the United States. And it goes from border to border from the northern border, Arizona, New Mexico. And spectacular trail. Because Arizona is beautiful. So it's a very beautiful trail. But they were having problems getting it designated. Because yes, politics and I understand politics. I help them. Actually it was me and John McCain got together and helped get that trail designated. But I'm sort of a restless person. Sorry, I was only there for a year with them. I had my own Disney spirit consultants started anyway. So then I just did a variety of things. I like projects start finished start finish. Until about, you know pretty much on my own. until five years ago, I decided, well, why don't you get a whole group of people who like to do that. And that's when world's best connectors was started. So the current organization that I manage, and what it just made up of a bunch of folks like myself, they all have their own businesses. But we get together and people throw out ideas and we jump on them or not. We're consulting firm. If n were CEO, the CEO, we're not B to B or C it'd be all those things. We're CEO, the CEO, that what we do is help other executives what problems they come in, they need a tech person, they need a HR person, they need whatever come to us. We either have a person like that, or we can get them a person like that. So that's what we've done in the past five years Michael Hingson 30:03is disease murders consultants still functioning? So you have two companies? Yeah. Denise Meridith 30:10Well, I actually three, but we want if it gets too complicated, but no, I have a nonprofit to read to kids, us. I'm trying to get parents to read to the kids again, like they did in the old days. But the days for consultants where that comes in is, and really the reason that I met you really, at do a lot of conferencing and whatever. But I do coaching, professional coaching, or people, and particularly for Baby Boomers and Gen X, what I do is help them rediscover their mojo. That's what I call it. And so I think both of those groups pretty much had it made in the beginning of 2020. Yeah, they had figured it out. They were doing well, economy's doing well, it's all kinds of opportunities going. Everything looks fantastic. I as an example, was that in Miami for Super Bowl week with my group, a group from world's best connectors, and we were networking and going to a lot of special events, thinking of future partnerships, future contracts. And two weeks later, I come back COVID Close everything down. So and that happened to a lot of what happened, everybody but baby, I think Baby Boomers and Gen X is crooked, because it was more of a disappointment. He thought you had it figured out you could actually had everything made. And then when President says COVID stuff and pandemics over those people ran back to work. And guess what? Nobody only wants to came back. Nobody else was in the office. Yeah. Nobody else wanted to be in the office Michael Hingson 31:57and a bunch of them got COVID. Denise Meridith 31:58Yeah, so it was just, to me devastating for a lot of people in my age group. So what I do is, work with them. You can't go backwards, it's not going to change. It's not going to go back to what it was. What can we do to find your happiness? Again? A place in a position and a life that can make you happy again? Yeah, a lot of people don't notice that. Really? COVID gave them a second chance. Yes. Okay, you're gonna have another opportunity. Maybe they didn't even like that job. You know that they're complaining about low job anyway. So what can we do? They get you something that you do like or no job at all. That's delicate, and people have a hard time transitioning sometimes to retirement. And so I help people over those humps. That's what I tried to help you. So Michael Hingson 32:55you do a lot of coaching and helping people and so when I should explain to the folks listening out there that Denise and I met through PATA Palooza that people know what PATA Palooza is, we've talked about it a number of times on on unstoppable mindset. And for those who don't know PATA Palooza is a program that meets four times a year and the people who come are either podcasters interested in being podcasters, or want to be interviewed by podcasters. Pretty much. Those are the people that usually come. And Denise and I met there. And here we are. Denise Meridith 33:29Yeah, we had a, you know, I think a lot in common as far as the way we look at the world, and achieving things and being happy. So I yeah, I was very impressed with what you do what you've overcome. I do a lot of speeches. Well, now it's coming up on Black History Month. So for that Women's History Month back, but I get request, obviously. Because people want to know how, yeah, obviously, all these all these things could have been obstacles, not being a vet, that not, you know, getting certain jobs, they not getting promotions, all of that. You can look at that as an obstacle that it is, or you can figure out a way to overcome that. But Michael Hingson 34:20you But you made a choice, somewhere in your psyche, that you weren't going to let those kinds of things stop you and that you were going to continue to Denise Meridith 34:28move on. Exactly. And that's that's the only way to do it. Thanks for not gonna be equal, you know, and that's one thing that's sort of hard to take those true. Baby bonus. Well, what we see is what we see, what we see is what we get. So I if you think about I was a kid when Civil Rights Act was passed, and everybody thought everything was going to change. And it hasn't been something strange, but women can be better Now, you know, overall, they're still allowed to obstacle. So I worked with people, well, I not work with people, I hope to be a role model for people, and how not to give up. And, and I say, essentially, wonder closes, God opens another one to take it. Michael Hingson 35:20What's hot? What's ironic is so the same thing in a sense with the Americans with Disabilities Act, everybody thought everything was going to change, and it hasn't. Unemployment rates have dropped a little bit. But they're still incredibly high. Internet websites aren't accessible, for the most part. And we're not included in a lot of the conversations when you talk about diversity that doesn't generally include disabilities. So some of us like, like I and I've talked about it on the podcast here talk about inclusion, you either are inclusive, or you're not, there's no middle ground, you either are gonna be or you're not. But at the same time, the thing that we have, and continue to face is not included in a lot of the conversations. So I don't hear anybody talking about a disability history Awareness Month or anything like that, although there is a month dealing with disabilities, but it is not nearly as well discussed and mentioned and talked about, or included as other minorities, even though we're a larger minority than all of them. Denise Meridith 36:24Wow. And everybody has the potential to be in that group. And Michael Hingson 36:29everybody has the potential to be in that group. Every well. Well, of course, actually, in, in a technical sense, everybody is a member of that group, I believe that we've misinterpreted the definition of disability, and that disability is a characteristic that everyone has, it manifests in different ways like you can see, and your disability, at least one of your disabilities, is your light dependent, you know, the power goes out, what are you going to do, you gotta go off and try to find a light source. Thomas Edison fixed it mostly, but not totally. And so it still creeps in. So the bottom line is, everybody has a disability. You know, it's something that we, we we really should think more about, but there's a lot of fear. And people know that they can become a person with a physical disability or whatever. And so the fear keeps us from being really included, like we ought to be. Denise Meridith 37:21And I've always had empathy along those lines, whatever reason why parents whatever reason was, but I, when I became the director, the deputy director of the Bureau, Ada, just pretty much passed. Right. And so I hired a person to, you know, interpret that legislation for us and help people with that legislation. Or did that set off a firestorm? How couldn't you be wasting a position on that? Nobody cares about that, and nobody needs to know that. Anyway, so but I do what I do. Right. So So I went ahead. And in this case, she was a hearing impaired, but as soon as she got there, things changed people. Oh, I have a question. Oh, I don't understand this, oh, how can I do this better? And Michael Hingson 38:19of course, today, and of course, today, most people rightfully so would not be caught dead saying hearing impaired because people who are deaf or hard of hearing recognize impaired is, is a negative thing. And we're not even cared, you know, the, and that hasn't really translated into blindness, because so many people continue to say visually impaired, and it shouldn't be blind or low vision. Because why are we Why do you equate how much sight you have with whether you're impaired or not? And that's the issue that we're Why do you equate, whether you how much you hear is to whether you're impaired or not. That's the whole thing we have to change and it's just so hard to do, because it's so ingrained in society. Denise Meridith 39:01Yeah, that'll be GQ. T I A plus. As an example, you know, the it's just the getting across what we need to get credit. It's getting harder, not easier to talk to people about anything. All right. Unfortunately, it's getting harder. So but she went on to be pretty popular pretty, pretty much in demand. But I I'm doing right now, one of the projects that we're working on, and world's best connectors is business education for college athletes. So again, it sort of comes up. Most people when they think about the NCAA is ruling on name image and likeness, nio that kid's gonna get paid for playing. Like a football, man and men and footballs. That's the whole thing. And if you look at this statistic, that's where the money is. That's where it nio money is going, blah, blah, blah, man and football and so my group, we're looking at students overall. And our program is open to any student in any sport in any school. And I want people that want to go to the Olympics, I want Paralympic people, I want LGBTQ T people, I want any athlete. But again, that's different. People aren't saying that they're not thinking that at all. So we're going to be a little different that way. But I always have been different. But I think if anything, those other groups all need it more. Because right now 2% of NCAA athletes in college, become professional athletes. 2% Okay, 98% What are they gonna do afterwards? And, you know, college is not really prepared for them for that. It's no, but just they have different goals. Okay. And I don't begrudge them that they have different goals, different objectives. But what we're doing is teaching them how to create a business run a business. So they have something when they leave college, they leave our program with a business license. So they have something when they leave college, what they do with it after that, we up to them, but at least it gives them a chance and opportunity to be I say something besides a pitcher in a yearbook? Yeah. Michael Hingson 41:25Which is something that certainly makes sense to do. Denise Meridith 41:30So where it's called Project Nylo. And so I encourage people to look into it. It's pretty simple. It's www dot project. Nylo. And I l.com Pretty simple, but the O is for ownership. And what we do is want to put ownership in the NFL, on the side of the good. Oh, that's just something different. Okay, now, I was gonna say, but you know, the things why I like liked you when I met you. And why I like your program, is there's such a need for educating the public about things. And it's getting harder and harder to do that. On paper. You know, to me, that's the anti intellectual approach that's being taken to so many things. It makes it more difficult. So I appreciate what you're doing. Michael Hingson 42:27You have you have in your life I'm sure had. Well, you talk a lot about mentoring, and you've been mentored a number of people who are some of the people who have been your mentors? Denise Meridith 42:40Um, yeah, it's interesting. Obviously, I didn't have many women. I didn't have any women mentors in Bureau, I was it so I became the permanent woman, mentor, and the Bureau of Land Management. But I did have a lot of male mentors. And that's one thing I try to get across to people know not to make stereotypes of people judgments about people you never know. My first mentor and Bureau of Land Management was older Anglo guy, and I say older, we thought he was really old, because he was 55. He's like, 2020 to 21, and whatever. So and he was a sagebrush specialist, right? That was his site. So you wouldn't think, and it was Republican conservative, you could go down the line. And we hit it off perfectly, which you wouldn't think so you can't make judgments about people. And he really helped me in the beginning, because like I said, I dealt with wildlife in New York. And we were in Nevada, though, he taught me a lot of desert, survival skills that I needed the half, and really helped me understand the bureau and it's what it did and how it did. It sounds like that. So Jim Bruner was my first mentor there. But then I had others while I'm away at hasty was the director of California for like, 30 years. He was the bureau director in California. He was awesome. Oh, God said and he would say, I like women better they work harder. Here's a big guy, Marine veteran, you know, tough guy and buzz cut until he died, you know? And so to have someone like that, except you Yeah, you know, promote you as like Kevin a year on pet Pitbull. Right. But it was very helpful. So I've had people like that. JOHN MCCAIN, ARIZONA. So I had mainly just because of the nature of the work I was said, mainly male mentors, mainly Anglo male mentors. So I do Estelle people keep an open mind about things you can learn from everyone. And I've had great support. Michael Hingson 45:05Was your mom, a mentor to you? Yeah, Denise Meridith 45:09yeah, I talked about that your parents if you're lucky. I'd be the first mentor. So I described my dad and everything that he did. And my mom was community organizer, a very strong, liberated woman, so to speak. And so for both of them, I got a little bit from both of them that helped shape me. And I, and really, they're the ones said, you could do anything? Honestly, you bet. They didn't say that, you know, they were very supportive. The track the track to get to Cornell is no easy track. In New York, it starts my mother figured it out. It pretty much started when I graduated from elementary school. I was valedictorian there. And she knew you had to get into the right Junior High School to get into the right high school to get to Cornell. Okay, she was that far ahead. So I'm thinking, so that's why I integrated the junior high school. And it was all white. I think there was 20 people of color in that whole school. And then I integrated the high school that I went to as well. And yeah, that was no easy thing. But I keep your eye on the prize and what you want out of it, what you got, and then that high school was sort of a feeder type of high school for for now. Michael Hingson 46:40Here's an off the wall question. Going back to mentors for a second. You mentioned John McCain. How about Cindy McCain? Denise Meridith 46:46Cindy is wonderful. Yeah, people I don't know, maybe most people outside of Arizona don't realize or the southwest. It was a it was a couple. Yeah. He was very important. And his decision making. And just being an I love them both. There was such a strong couple. And she's carried on she's so she has Michael Hingson 47:17you know, he was the visible one. Pretty much in the news and all that but she is clearly continue to move. Move forward in is a vibrant force in her own right, which is great. Denise Meridith 47:30Yeah, and she has I'm gonna approach her about my program, too. But hey, you know, it's Yeah, yeah. And politics in general. You know, I just don't have many I care right now, are Republican and Democrat. I've been independent all my life. So it hasn't mattered, obviously. But, but the just, we need people that have conviction, you know, and make honest decisions, not based on, you know, contributions or anything like that. Michael Hingson 48:05Yeah, that's really the issue is having true convictions. And we just don't see that much of it. In the world in general, like we should know. Denise Meridith 48:13And, you know, who knows when we'll get there again. But it's very price people. He people never really knew what he was gonna vote, you know, how he's gonna vote, even though he was a conservative Republican. So you could guess some of it. But he did a lot of environmental work this Yeah, I know, as I was working with him on it, right. So that would shock people. They would not think that would happen. But there were Michael Hingson 48:37a few decisions he made. I thought were a little bit strange, but you know, but that's okay. You You do what you can, but clearly, he was a man of convictions and, and was was one of the good ones. Yeah, Denise Meridith 48:53he was also effective. And that's one thing. There you go. You know, well, I don't know if we have to leave effective politicians anymore. But he brought a lot of money to the state. He was very obviously supportive of the military. So veterans, he did a lot to help veterans. He did a lot of, to me. Very important things that involve getting money, you have to get money to do good things. And he did. had, you know, did a good job of doing that. But, you know, so a lot of politicians now you don't see them getting money for anyone but themselves in a lot of cases. Yeah. It's pretty sad. Michael Hingson 49:32Yeah, we don't have the role models that we used to have them true models that you can look up to in terms of ethics and everything else. Yeah. Denise Meridith 49:42Sandra Day O'Connor, another person we lost. I said another wonderful person. I met her obviously through my stuff with the Bureau of Land Management. But again, you know, people couldn't predict. Yeah, she voted accordingly, you could not predict or assume, you know that she was going to do this or do that. He evaluated every issue that came up and, and, you know, stuck to her guns with it. She was very important. She also what I liked about her is that she rarely promoted education. Right now, Arizona, I don't know, I didn't look this past year are pretty much been number 49 out of 50. States and education. And she was did a lot to try to rectify that by really pushing education. She thought that people choose, right. Don't know enough about government. Yeah, it's not taught anymore. People don't know how government works. How, what is public service? Now that is, I know, Bureau and other federal agencies have a hard time getting anyone anymore. And believe me, we need civil servants. We need public servants. So who are honest, and they're just to do a good job. We need Michael Hingson 51:09to get leaders and it isn't just civil servants. They need to, to understand and other civil servants we need to grow leaders to write. Denise Meridith 51:21And I just really, a lot of people been discouraged. Like, even aside, even the science, they can't do science anymore. Right. So scientists are not happy campers as there used to be. Yeah, it's gotten very politicized. Yeah, exactly. So I don't know. But I, my, what I've decided from here on I have a few years left, maybe just a few. But anyway, is to legacy, my legacy, hopefully, would be developing future leaders. So that's what I'm doing. That's why I'm doing like this education program. We're gonna create a whole new generation of business leaders, which will be nice people that in the past, or qualities have been overlooked athletes, people don't think about them, except how fast I can run or how high they can jump. Yeah. And when you think about it, that discipline there that they had to go through to be to where they are charismatic, a lot of them are charismatic leader type people. And, you know, we're missing all of that, by just, you know, throwing them out if they can't run out in the field anymore. Yeah. I'm hoping to give them some alternatives. In turn, they can take that business degree, go back home, hire people in their area, and their community back home with a business degree and have a family business. You know, it's it's multiple, as the effects multiply dramatically, I hope, what they were doing with this program, Michael Hingson 53:00you mentioned earlier, read to kids tell me a little bit more about that. Denise Meridith 53:04Yeah, that's, that's my fun project. But I feel one I've been writing since I was 10 years. Well, probably before, but since I wrote my first book when I was 10 years old, right, dreading it, too. I was pretty good artists. But I'm concerned that people aren't. I think reading is the crux of a lot of things. Decision making, you know, rationality, everything, but my angle on it is in the past, parents rented our kids, it was one moment, you know, bedtime stories. One moment, bedtime alone, if your child quietly do something together. Now, it's pretty much an ima ComiCon fan, so not knocking marvel in particular, but now it's, you know, syndicated on another TV, watch Marvel until this time because parents are very busy. I got a lot of different jobs. It's just, to me, that's something that's been lost. And when I read the kids, us the mascot is my dog, my miniature poodle, airy, and he has five books on Amazon. And the adventures of airy are about what he's doing as he grows up so to speak. So Michael Hingson 54:30every right Harry writes his own books. Yeah, Denise Meridith 54:33he does a good job. This book sell more than my Yes. So his first haircut our first target went to the doctor right those types of issues, though he helps kids overcome those fears that they might have. But to be the key is there. I'm what I might our model is to read to a kid three to six years old 15 minutes a day. So you take that 15 minutes read in 15 Min. So we have a lot of authors in our group, you can read those books, 15 minutes. And that's just 15 minutes, which doesn't seem long, but it's, you know, face to face. Total attention, working on something together, and it just doesn't happen much anymore. Know what to say. And when we go to book shows or whatever, and type of thing, and so all the people that go to these giant, you know, now they still have a few, I was glad to find out a few giant book fairs going on. And one in Tucson, I guess. 100,000 people go to that one. It's pretty incredible. But everybody that will come up to our booth say, oh, yeah, my mom used to read to me. It's passed along. Yeah, passed along. And these people that are coming up to you are very educated, erudite people, right. So that's what I hope to do. And luckily, I had a RT O'Hagan and I'll give a shout out to him. He, during pandemic, he bought Aires books, and distributed them to nurses and hospitals. So that they could go home and read to their kids. And so you get nice letters. Oh, it's first time. My kid read out loud. Or it's the first time that ghost I hope that nice books that people would get some lessons from them dedicate my talk about? Oh, you didn't know that your kid was afraid of such and such? Yeah. You didn't know the kid was being bullied at school? Or you didn't know these things? It? Yeah. So it could open up a lot of discussions. So it's the region kids got us is that site. And it's just a little thing I do on the side. But I'm hoping it has some impact on parents, grandparents in particular, I thought grandparents were really sort of left out during COVID. You know, they couldn't even see anybody and got separated from their grandkids. My books are various books, obviously, you can get them on Kindle. You can get them on online. And so it's something that you can do now what technology you can do over what we're doing zoom, right. You can read to hear grant kid on the other side of the country through zoom. So that's what I'm hoping. Right now. I appreciate your asking about it. So the little thing I do on the side but reallocates us that's as my heart. It's something that I really like to see happen. Michael Hingson 57:36So how does the program work? What do you do? Denise Meridith 57:39What we do is just write books there online. And what we had breach over it, or we'll have starting again this year, is go to schools, you know, go to school, go to libraries. You know, Eric goes, I take Gary. And he goes, and we have, you know, the books there. And parents. Yeah, by the books we read. We have readings for our office from our, you know, our group COMM And I read some of the kids there, and whatever. So it's just getting kids excited about reading again. And parents like it too. Michael Hingson 58:16Alright, so I get to that is that is really cool. What books have you written? Denise Meridith 58:20I just have to have my own. But anyway, so he has five, but I have Michael Hingson 58:26He's got four paws though. So he's got a porter, right? 58:30That's true thoughts, while chillin and a C h i l l i n what no G is really covers my career from being born in Brooklyn, I guess, up into my career through the Bureau of Land Management. So it's funny when you write something like that, and you call it an autobiography, because when you're young, you don't think you're gonna live that long. And then it was like, Gee, wow, I guess I had some more living to do I should write something else. So the other book is the sequel to that and it's called the year roof rat ate my dishwasher. Which people go I'd say what Okay. Roof rats are I don't know that their I guess their data. Arizona. I don't know. Anyway, we have roof rats here. A lot of people have different kinds of pests than their areas but we have roof rats, and they eat there. They have big teeth. And not like normal rats. They have big teeth. They climb trees and they eat through pipes. They eat through all kinds of things. So literally, the story opens so that book the first story is about the My dishwasher stopped working. And I had the guy come to repair it and he opened stuff up but he like jumps back and scrapes I go whoa. And he goes look at a pipe. So the rat should eaten through the PCV pipe. And that's why my dishwasher what's not working. And so what I wanted to do with this book is it's very much about Arizona. So it's an Arizona Survival Guide is what I call it. Arizona is a very particular place with very unique problems like roof rats. And so I talk about as a business person, how to survive here in Arizona, what kinds of things to consider and look out for. And I tried to tell people, it's a great place to live. People know that already. But there are some things that are different here that you have to look out for Scorpio, roof rats, rattle steaks, black nose, yeah, 115 degree temperatures now one ban. But I tried to keep it very upbeat. And I also tried to acknowledge people here in Arizona that are doing very positive things like McCain, I mentioned in there, people who, because Arizona doesn't get any recognition really has a very strange reputation outside of Arizona. And I wanted to get across that is very normal place. With it's a purple state that much into that, but it's we have people all kinds and all religions and all people think there are people of color hair for some reason, because it sort of looks that way if you walk through parts of Scottsdale, but it's gonna be majority minority state a couple of years. So there are plenty of people of color here. And it's just a wonderful place to live. So my second book while it's out, it's about me and people. I never hear what they've accomplished. It's also i My love you but who? Arizona. Michael Hingson 1:01:51So do you see desert tortoises these days? 1:01:56I hear are Phoenix not anymore? Because it's so built up? Yeah. But the thing is, Phoenix is also spread out, believe it or not, it's the biggest city now geographically in the country. surpassed LA. So now it's the biggest Yeah. And so around the edges, people live around the edges. So they see tortoises, but they also see coyotes and rattlesnakes. So I, you know, I had my years as a wildlife biologist, I don't need that anymore. Michael Hingson 1:02:29Well, if people want to reach out and contact you, how do they do that? Okay. 1:02:34Pretty simple. You could get my website that's about me is Denise. Meridith. Michael Hingson 1:02:41Can you spell that, please? Yeah, I Denise Meridith 1:02:43was about to do that. Oh, great. Yeah, that's people fill it in correctly. So thats D e n i s e m e r i d i t h.com. Meridith is normally spelt with two E's, so I don't get much junk mail. But it's denisemeridith.com is my website. And you can sort of go from there links you to all things, world's best connectors is the wbcs.com. Again, and my ComiCon routine, but we're the WBCs that's what we pretend to be. But it's t h e w b c s.com. And that's the other site they can go to. And I really welcome people to go in and read to kids.us if you want to see airy, and hear about airy, and get some kids books, but I really want to encourage people to read to their children and read to their grandchildren. It's like a lot of stars, Michael. It's getting to be a lost art. And if Michael Hingson 1:03:43people go to our our show notes, and so on. You have some gifts that you're giving away. Yes, Denise Meridith 1:03:49yes, I have. It's called the we're talking about mentors, right. So it's called a mentors almanac. One of the gifts that I'm giving away in which you can, and what it is is 365 tips on how to be a great leader. And so I have a sort of a mantra every day that you can use, that you can use in helping you mentor other people, and also hopefully help yourself at the same time. And then people can call me and when they go to my site, they can get the phone number there too. And set up a call with me about coaching. Again, I have masterminds. I'm starting a mastermind here, probably the end of the month, so call me about that. And I also do personal coaching private coaching. And while I emphasize Gen X and baby boomers I you know, really executive coach for anyone. It's just those groups are pretty in need. Right now of that. I get it kids through my events, like world's best connectors through my events with the educational program. So I'm going to be helping kids. I'm not discriminating against younger people. I'm going to be helping them. But I coach, Baby Boomers and Gen X primarily. Cool. Michael Hingson 1:05:10Well, again, I want to thank you for being here. This has been a lot of fun. Can you believe it? We've been doing it over an hour now, which Denise Meridith 1:05:18I appreciate it. It's, well, I went I'm once I met you, I know this is gonna be great. I think we're gonna stay in touch and do a Michael Hingson 1:05:26lot of good things. Well, I sincerely hope so and definitely want to do that. So I want to thank you again. And thanks for listening wherever you are, we really appreciate it. Whether you're listening or watching on YouTube or some other podcast source would really appreciate it. If you give us a five star rating we value your ratings very highly. And of course, needless to say, Love five star rating. So please do that. Love your opinions, any thoughts that you have about what we did today and we appreciate your opinions. If you know of anyone who ought to be a guest on unstoppable mindset. Denise, you as well. Please let us know we're always looking for additional guests, people who we can have on to tell their stories and talk about what they'd like to talk about. If you wish to reach out to me you can do so by emailing me at Michael m i c h a e l h i, at accessiBe A C C E S S I B e.com. You can also go to our podcast webpage, www dot Michael hingson.com/podcast. And Michael Hingson is m i c h a e l h i n g s o n So www dot Michael hingson.com/podcasts. And again, love those ratings really appreciate it. And we definitely want to hear from you and get your thoughts. So, one last time, Denise, I want to thank you for being here and taking so much time to be with us. Denise Meridith 1:06:57Thank you, Michael and I wish you continued success. Michael Hingson 1:07:03You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com . AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

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I first met Rob through his podcast, the Unstuck Movement. As I tend to do when being interviewed by podcasters I asked if he would be willing to come on Unstoppable Mindset to talk about his life, his podcast and the lessons he might wish to impart. Boy did I feel like I was a winner as we talked.

As Rob tells us, he felt somewhat out of place as he was growing up. He couldn’t decide for some time what he wanted to do with his life. As he will tell you, he was stuck and unwilling to explore change to improve himself and his circumstances.

Eventually, he did come to realize that he needed to change, and change he did as you will hear. I love having discussions with people like Rob because in some ways you never know where discussions may lead. For example, Rob credits good teachers and coaches with his progress at living life. His discussions lead to a pretty deep conversation between us about teaching, teachers and how in fact we all are teachers whether employed in the profession or not.

Rob’s life journey is typical of someone who had to find his way in the world, but when he did, he ran with his discoveries. There are lots of life-lessons Rob offers us and I am sure you will find some good concepts in my conversation with Rob.

About the Guest:

Rob Z Wentz is an Executive Leadership Coach.𝗥𝗼𝗯 𝗛𝗲𝗹𝗽𝘀 𝗗𝗿𝗶𝘃𝗲𝗻 𝗕𝘂𝘀𝗶𝗻𝗲𝘀𝘀 𝗢𝘄𝗻𝗲𝗿𝘀 𝗚𝗿𝗼𝘄 𝗕𝗶𝗴𝗴𝗲𝗿, 𝗕𝗲𝘁𝘁𝗲𝗿, 𝗔𝗻𝗱 𝗙𝗮𝘀𝘁𝗲𝗿 𝗕𝘆 𝗨𝘀𝗶𝗻𝗴 𝗧𝗵𝗲 𝗩𝗜𝗧𝗔𝗟𝗦 𝗦𝘆𝘀𝘁𝗲𝗺.

Rob is also the founder of 𝗧𝗵𝗲 𝗔𝗰𝗮𝗱𝗲𝗺𝘆 𝗼𝗳 𝗘𝘅𝗰𝗲𝗹𝗹𝗲𝗻𝗰𝗲. The 𝗔𝟰𝗘 is for business owners who are serious about increasing their 𝗶𝗻𝗰𝗼𝗺𝗲, 𝗶𝗺𝗽𝗮𝗰𝘁, 𝗮𝗻𝗱 𝗶𝗻𝗳𝗹𝘂𝗲𝗻𝗰𝗲. We build life-changing relationships, learn from master-level experts, network and connect with leaders, and create strategies to increase revenue and profits.

Rob is also an entrepreneur, best selling author, podcast host (The Unstuck Movement), social media marketer and strategist, award-winning radio personality, speaker, and influencer. For over 20 years Rob has been connecting and engaging with people in various forms of broadcasting.

Ways to connect with Rob:

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/robzwentzLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/robzcoach

About the Host:Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.

Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children’s Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association’s 2012 Hero Dog Awards.

https://michaelhingson.comhttps://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/https://twitter.com/mhingsonhttps://www.youtube.com/user/mhingsonhttps://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/

accessiBe Linkshttps://accessibe.com/https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBehttps://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/

https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/

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Transcript Notes:

Michael Hingson 00:00Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us. Michael Hingson 01:21Hi there and welcome once again to unstoppable mindset. Yep, unstoppable. That's what we are. It's actually early in the morning for me out here in California where we're recording this particular episode. Our guest is Rob Wentz. I was interviewed on Rob's podcast, and he can tell us more about that. But of course, I told him the cost for being interviewed was that he had to come on unstoppable mindset. Let me chat with him a little bit. And he so graciously did it. So here we are talking all the way from California to Pennsylvania and back again, Rob, thanks very much for being on unstoppable mindset. And welcome. Of Rob Wentz 01:56course, Michael, it's an honor to be here. I love it. I love the idea of the platform. And I love the fact that you got up super early to do this with me. So thank you. Well, Michael Hingson 02:05fortunately for me, I guess I'm usually up about 530 in the morning. So it worked out, okay. And for those listening, Rob, and I share a love and interest of radio, I did radio in college, and not too much after that. But after September 11, I was interviewed a lot. So I've been associated with the media for quite a long time, Rob has been in radio for more than 20 years, he has his own podcast and, and has been very successful at it and continues to grow. He's a successful executive leadership coach, and among other things, and I think, has a lot to talk about. So let's do that. Why don't we start? Why don't you tell me a little about the earlier Rob, you know, growing up and all that sort of stuff. Or Rob Wentz 02:50earlier me, you know, earlier you my parents got divorced. And I was really young, probably like one year old, maybe maybe it was one. So I've two families, two siblings on each side grew up mostly with my mom, with my dad, like every other weekend growing up. Man growing up, I was kind of a I was a weird kid. You know, I think that I just started chapter in this book called The Spiritual Fitness survivor. And the chapter was going to get it out here real quick and give myself a cheap plug there. Fourth Edition spiritual fitness survivor by Amelia Ramana. He puts together these anthology books and my chapters a lot about what my early life was like, because the title of the chapter is the bold Art of Being yourself the six essential rules for unleashing the real you and I felt growing up like I never was able to, like, get who I actually was on the inside out. So I always felt like I didn't know who I was. And there was a version of me that was kind of like stuck on the inside. I didn't know how to express myself or how to communicate well. So I think on the outside people probably wouldn't have noticed cuz I've heard this from people they say, I never noticed that you felt that way or I never thought you felt these ways, you know, those sorts of things. But it's I was like, I didn't know how to be myself like I was it was a disconnect. Right. And I think a lot of people can resonate with that there was this disconnect that happened inside of me through you know, by having divorced parents and not having an outlet good communication skills, not having room to be emotionally stable. Let maybe low emotional intelligence is the right word there. And it led to this, this journey for me of figuring out how to be myself. And what does that look like for me to be myself and be confident to build my confidence build my self esteem, so I'd say my young life was I just felt out of place and I didn't feel like I fit in anywhere else. I guess it's a good way to explain it like I never felt like I really fit in. And for some reason, I gravitated towards radio looking back on it now it was, I think God, God guides us in directions, whether we knowingly know why we're heading there or not right. And I think for me radio was this outlet because this was before the internet was, right. Maybe maybe the early days of the Internet, this would been like maybe 1999 is when I started in radio. So the internet existed, but not in the form it does today. Right. And I really believe I went into radio to find my voice. Because what radio does is like, you get to you can either fake it and be a fake version of yourself, right? That you're, you're putting on this character. But as the years go on, and radio turned out, I went from like this, this character I created on the air to like, being more of me, and the more of me, I became on the air, the better I got, as a person, the more of me actually came out in real life. And those two, those two things like worked together in tandem, to help me kind of come out of my shell, I guess you could say. So my early life, that's, that was a, you know, that was a big part of my life. 10 years old, I started really loving radio and doing pretend radio shows in my bedroom. And I love professional wrestling when I was a kid, that was another kind of like, fantasy outlet, I guess, like put on like a character. And then when I was 15 years old, I got a job in radio, and my career kind of started from there. Michael Hingson 06:32Do you think that most kids go through this kind of stage of really not knowing themselves? And is it or is it the more the exception than the rule? Rob Wentz 06:43I think for sure, right? Yeah, I think a lot of kids well, especially in your teenage years, you're struggling with your identity. And that's that's why I think that the whole issue right now with teenagers and why the trans movement and and seems to be hitting so hard with that age range is because you are in like a transition of figuring out who you are, right? But I think before the age of maybe 12, or 13, you have a better sense of who you are. Instinctively, I love to ask people the question, What did you want to be when you were 10 years old, because I think it's a great place like you're old enough to tend to know what you love, just just because you love it, you don't need a reason to love it. If nobody told you to like it, you just you just like it, right. But then also at 10, you're not quite influenced by the outside world yet, or you still have your own internal desire for what you naturally gravitate towards. But I feel like I had more of that than most kids. I feel like I had more of an unsureness of who I was than most kids. And it was more of like a lack of confidence in like, how I felt on the inside. I didn't feel like was accepted on the outside. And that could have been, I don't have many memories of growing up. Right. So that could have been me thinking that. Or it could have been influenced by people in my life. I'm not totally sure. But that's just how I felt. Be i To answer your question. I think most kids do feel that way, to a certain extent. But I think I felt it more than most. Michael Hingson 08:21I think for me, growing up, I always wanted to be a teacher. I don't know why. But I always wanted to be a teacher. I liked teachers. I liked school. But I also, and I don't know why I thought this. I also thought, you know, who knows how life will really make me go. And what I've realized through the years having spent most of my life in professional sales. And then after September 11th, being a public speaker is in reality, I still got to be a teacher. It's just that I didn't become a teacher in the same way that teachers do in school that is with a professional job just going into a classroom every day. But I did get a secondary teaching credential. So I understand teaching professionally. And I think I still ended up being a professional teacher. Now I get to teach and as I tell people sell life and philosophy rather than selling computer hardware. Rob Wentz 09:23I love that because, boy, there's so many teachers out there that are actually teachers, right, that worked for schools that have not tapped into their full potential. But I mean, those teachers also are helping to shape the youth of America. So my hat's off to them because it's a hard job to do an important job and an under appreciated job. Absolutely. I think we all should strive to be teachers, right? Teaching ourselves and then teaching others I feel like that's a that's a role we all should have as you learn and grow through life and you make your message your message and you should be out there. Teaching people helping them Yeah, learn the things that you've already learned. Yeah, Michael Hingson 10:03in one way or another. And it may not be in the way that you think I never thought that I would end up being a public speaker and traveling the world and speaking and also even doing a podcast, I had originally thought I wanted to be a teacher in a classroom. Well, that was what I grew up with, from a standpoint of the outside world was saying, this is what a teacher is. But I've grown to realize that it's so much more and teachers, professionals are so underappreciated and so undervalued. And they, they do their best, or most of them do. I mean, there are always some that are a problem, but they do their best, and are just so under appreciated, and so not recognized for all the good that they do and the things that they bring into the world. Rob Wentz 10:50Yeah, I've often thought, you know, when it comes to teachers, my son's in fourth grade right now, and he goes to a really good public school, I am really happy that central Pennsylvania, we have some really good public schools here. And I think, man, to be a teacher in that, what an opportunity, an opportunity to like, work in elementary schools and to work with, you know, 10 year old kids, I, I still feel so much like a kid myself, a lot of the times. I like I love being around kids, because they're just fun. And they love what they love. They love life, they're in a good mood, they, they just like, they light things up. And I feel like oftentimes, as parents, or as adults, we kind of push the kids to the side, like go do your own. That's how I felt growing up, kind of, you know, go do your own thing. The adults are hanging out, I love to bring the kids in, I want to I'd rather hang out with the kids at the kids table, and sit at the adults table. They're just, they're fun. And they they're excited about life, and they're full of energy. So yeah, I my hat's off to teachers out there who are super passionate about what they do. I love seeing like really passionate male teachers who are intentional, because you don't have many male teachers that are very intentional with trying to, you know, help kids grow, and not just like learn what they're supposed to learn in school. But also, like, if you can be a public school teacher and slip in leadership principles and faith principles and things like that, under the radar, right? I think that's the most amazing thing. And my son's school, actually, this year, just started a leadership class, they're gonna start it in the second marking period, I was like, how cool is that they are instituting a leadership class in elementary schools. So that's amazing. And Michael Hingson 12:39it's too bad that all too often. It has to be slipped in under the radar. I mean, we, you know, we, it isn't dealing with any particular religion or anything. It's basic philosophical concepts. And we really should do our best to teach kids that the problem is the parents, as you point out, kids are fun loving, they're full of life. They don't have hidden agendas. That comes so much later on. And then parents or adults are always trying to warp the world to oh, this is what it really should be based on just their individual beliefs rather than themselves taking the time to learn and study anymore. Yeah, very true. Or as you would say, they get stuck. Rob Wentz 13:29Right, we get stuck in our own nonsense. And then we get triggered by anything that challenges us getting unstuck, right? It's kind of hilarious. Yeah. When you think about it, said, Oh, Michael Hingson 13:40I hear you. Why is it that people have so much struggle with change, and just really hate it? Even though change is always all around us? Rob Wentz 13:53Well, yeah, to talk about the ego, I guess, if your ego doesn't like change, or like, just survival, it's, I think, I think of it in a survival sense. You know, in order to survive, you'd like things to remain the same, because they're natural. And they're, that that's the way that you're used to it, the more you're used to things, the more you can predict the future, the more you can predict the future, the more safe you can be, and you can protect yourself, right? So I get, like, avoiding change is like, Okay, if I stay the same, at least, I mean, I feel like I have some sense of control of what's happening in my life, so I have a better chance of surviving, which is actually not true. And it's counterintuitive to think of it the other way, right? Because the other way of thinking of it is like, the unknown is super scary. And if I go out into the unknown, I don't know what's gonna happen next was a good chance I could die. But it's like a like the base level, I think of it, but really, that's the only way you're going to grow. And I think the whole change thing, I mean, I think part of its instinct, like survival instinct, a part of it is, you know, it's just, nobody ever teaches us So that changes good. Unless you come up with a family where they embrace change, then changes like this foreign scary concept that, oh my gosh is like terrifying because change means that like, I'm going to have to think differently. I can remember years ago, my ex wife, she was, she would tell me, you need to change these things about yourself. And I was she was trying to change me in a good way I, because I was miserable, I was so miserable with myself. And just going back to that chapter in that book, and spiritual fitness survivor, I was not able to be my authentic self. And it was like, torture, I was it was like torture for me, because I was so stuck in this version of me that I didn't want to be. And I didn't know how to get the real version out, right. So I would tell her, you want me to change, I can't change this is the way that I think this is the way that I am. This is how I am. And you're gonna have to just deal with me. That's the kind of that's what I thought. And that's what I said. And I think for a lot of people, that is the truth, right? They, and this was, I can speak directly to it. Because this was me, I did not know that I could change, I did not know that I could think differently. And that was probably in my mid 20s. That's probably around 25 Whenever I was thinking this, right, so I did not know that I could change because I did not ever have anybody in my life. Who spoke that way about change. Who's who said, you don't have to think this way. Things aren't black and white. So I think a big part of it is people and changes. They've never been around anybody that is constantly embracing change and trying to change because change is really painful, right? So you start to go to try to change and it's super painful. It's really hard, especially positive change, it's seems to be easier to change in a negative way. That seems to be an easy one. I don't know why. But like that's just like, gravitating towards all the vices in your life, you just keep diving into those meal change into a horrible person. But the change positively it's really fighting against a resistance is constantly coming against you and my mentor, his name's Ray, over door phrase and amazing man. He's been my mentor for a number of years, he's in his mid 80s. He's been a coach as long as I've been alive. And Ray always said this, to me, he's like, you're gonna feel this resistance when you're trying to change until a certain breakthrough point. And all that energy that that's resisting you is coming around behind you. And then it propels you forward and gives you momentum. But you've got to persist in the desire to change until that momentum gets behind you and starts to push you. And there's so much truth to that. And it can be so hard to see on a daily basis. I think for you know, a lot of people it's like I want to change and they really do want to change. But it's like the New Year's resolution thing, right? They put a month in, they put a couple months and they don't see it. They don't feel it. So they just stop. And then you start again later on. And you stop. And you start again later on. And you stop and that's that can be really disheartening. Yeah, don't move forward. Michael Hingson 18:21Well, what happened to you that you finally did change? Because clearly you have? I don't, Rob Wentz 18:29I had my son Max, he's nine. Right. So that was like the beginning of change. For me. That was like I knew I couldn't be I was I was I had some addictions. I had negative thinking, limiting beliefs. I was just unaware also. And I was not where I wanted to be in life, I was not who I wanted to be who that version inside of me hadn't come out, right. So that was the big, big one. I knew when Max was going to be born, I really started to work on changing. When I found out my ex wife was pregnant with him. So it's been close to 10 years. And then over that, it was like I couldn't turn it off. I think for me, and I don't know how other people feel about this. But for me, it's not an option. Like I don't have an option to not continue to grow and change because I wouldn't be able to live with myself. If I didn't. It's it's almost it's not even something that I think about. It's like, No, I have to do this. Because if I'm not pushing myself to get better, and to be a better person. And then on top of talking about success, and money and stuff, of course those are things that are on my goals list of certain levels of those things. But more it's about internally, how do I feel about myself? How am I showing up in the world? For people around me? How am I being more of service and being a Christian? It's like how am I being more like Jesus? How could I be more like Jesus on a day They bases, how can I be more loving to other people in my life? How could I be paying attention to what God's will is for my life? And what what am I supposed to be doing? How am I supposed to be acting? And that's kind of that momentum for us. So that was resistance. And it still can be sometimes. But now I feel more momentum of like, it's, for me, it's not even an option. It's like I have to continue to get better. Because if I didn't, what, what else? I look at like the purpose of life, what more of a purpose is there to life and to keep breaking through different levels of yourself, right? Finding more of your potential, finding more of who God created you to be. So for me, that's, that's my motivation for it. Michael Hingson 20:47So now, are you married now? Rob Wentz 20:51I'm engaged. I'm getting married in two months will be November 25 2023. Or I'm getting remarried. Yeah. So Michael Hingson 21:01you said earlier, your fiance your fiance's birthday is the sixth of December. So that's cool. Well, so what if it's not too nosy? So the way you you dealt with your ex wife? And that you're the way you are? You don't change? That's changed? Do you have conversations ever with her about that anymore? How does all that work out? With my Rob Wentz 21:28ex wife? Uh, huh. Wow, our relationship still rebuilding. So we haven't had. And she she's acknowledged in the in the past that I had changed. Right. But it's interesting. I'm still working through this. So I still I still don't have like a clear a clearer view of it. But it seems like, you know, when you want somebody to change, and they do change, they might they might not change the way you want them to? Yeah. Like, it doesn't work. And this is true for everyone. Because I I also tried to change her right. And I think that's that was if you talk about the there's the downfall of our relationship, we both were trying to change each other, instead of just letting each other be who we are. And that's that can be really hard. So that control factor, right. But between me and her, I, she's recognized it. But as you change I think that causes you to grow apart in certain ways. Yeah. Michael Hingson 22:32Especially when you're both trying to make each other change. We, my wife and I were married for 40 years, she passed this past November. But we, I think when we got married, we weren't trying to change each other, we, we actually had very dramatic differences. I'm blind, she's in a wheelchair. We came from different backgrounds. But in a sense, we have some very similar backgrounds. We both love teaching, she was a teacher for 10 years. And I went in different directions insofar as teaching. But I think even over that time of 40 years of marriage, we did change, we both did change, and grew closer together in a lot of ways. And one of the things that we really didn't want to have are walls. And that's one of the things that you've got to deal with in a marriage is not letting walls build up and not communicating. So we love to talk to each other. We did a lot of things together. I would get audio books, and we would read them together. I taught her how to listen to books, which, which was fun. And so we a lot of times instead of watching TV while we were doing different things we'd have a book on so that yeah, we we really worked at it. Rob Wentz 23:49That's what a great relationship that sounds like that's that's, that sounds so healthy. Michael Hingson 23:57We had our challenges, of course, but by the same token, it did work out well. And so we we communicated and men had a lot of fun. And I think that's really it. It's all about also having fun. That's important to do Rob Wentz 24:10too. Yeah, absolutely. You know, and I think when I was younger, my ex wife and I are married, you you meet people where you're at. And I noticed this, the more as life goes on, you meet people where you're at. So the kinds of people that come into your life at certain stages in your life, reflect the things that you're trying to work on, right. So I was still trying to figure out who the heck I was, and and had so much turmoil within me around that. That it brought turmoil into my relationships. So now that I'm older, I just turned 40 in June. I feel much more at peace with myself and so I seem to just I'm more peaceful with people in My life, at least I'd like to think so. You could ask other people my life, they feel the same way, but I think I am. And so I bring, it seems like I bring more peaceful people into my life and more peaceful situations. But I'm so grateful for every everybody in my life and everything that's happened in my life, I really tried to my mentor, Ray, once again to bring him up. He says, everything's a blessing, depending on how you look at it, you know? So there's a blessing in everything, if you look at it the right way. And there's so much truth in that. It's so amazing. God works everything for good for you to grow, right? So there's a blessing and everything, every curse can be a gift, depending on how you look at it. And you mentioned something about walls there. My fiance said this to me. A couple of weeks ago, it was really good. She said, There's dream builders, and there's wall builders. Because I was I was I was moaning and complaining about something, I don't know what it was. And she said, sometimes, Rob, you put up a wall, and then you'll sit there and you'll yell at it. Yeah, and I was like, That's so good. That's exactly what he wasn't mean about it. She was very loving about it. But she was just very factual. Like, you've put this wall up, and you're just yelling at the wall, just walk around it and make the dream happen. I thought that was it was profound. For me, it made it made a lot of sense to me. So Michael Hingson 26:25it does make a lot of sense. I think that's pretty cool. I love that expression. You build dreams, or you build walls. And it's, it's cool to build and then work at living the dream. And you know, the other side of it is that you can build a wall around a dream so that the dream doesn't evolve to. So the bottom line is that we decide, well, we're living our dream. And maybe we're not really living our dream, we've locked ourselves into something. And again, it gets back to the whole idea of change. We don't allow ourselves to evolve and change. Like we probably should. Rob Wentz 27:02Yeah, very true. Yeah. That's my, my personal. major purpose in life is to know, to learn and know breakthrough strategies, and then to experience breakthrough and help others experience breakthrough, right, that personal freedom that comes from breakthrough, and comes from finding more of your potential. There's nothing more invigorating and freeing than that right to break down those walls. Man, it feels so good. Which is why my podcast which you were on the unstuck movement, that's the point it's like getting unstuck, what does it take to make to have those breakthroughs and to get unstuck? I just love that. And Michael Hingson 27:46what's really fun about that is, as you are able to help other people do that, and and succeed, it is an ego to say, it helps you to Rob Wentz 28:00Yeah, it's beneficial for everybody involved. That's, I always think of Jim Collins Good to Great, right. The good news, great, the best businesses were win wins, right? So they created as many wins as possible. And that's how you win in life because you you benefit from it. And so does everybody else. Like that's the that's the goal. And I can remember being when I first started getting into personal development, I was watching a lot of Tony Robbins, and he was just talking a lot about being of service to people. And I honest to God was like being of service to people like what the heck, why would I need to be of service to other people, if I'm trying to make money or whatever it is, and I was so my perspective was so a 180 of what it is now. And I remember thinking those thoughts of like, service, like how do I be of service? What the heck, how does that even work? Like that's, that's where my head was at. So I was very stuck, to say the least. Yeah. And Michael Hingson 29:01obviously, you you've at least started, I won't say you figured it out, because figuring it out is a lifetime process. But you've certainly made significant progress at figuring it out. Rob Wentz 29:10Yes, I've, every day is another chance to do that every day when you wake up. It's another opportunity to get unstuck, because I don't know how you are when you wake up, Michael, but when I wake up, I'm like, Ah, I don't want to get up. I'm not ready to get up. I don't want to do this. Every morning. It's like every morning starts the thing over again. Like, I gotta get to bed. It's so comfy in my bed. I just want to lay here and sleep and I used to sleep a lot. I mean, I would I used to you know, I was a partier. So we'd stay up till 6am and sleep till 2pm and work seven to midnight and do it all over again and build some bad habits in my life. And the morning thing for me is like a reminder every morning. That's right. It's maybe that's why it's It's difficult every morning cuz it needs to be, I need that reminder to like, get my butt going. Michael Hingson 30:06For me, I know that if I have, if I, when I wake up in the morning, if I really just oh, I don't want to get up, I probably didn't get enough sleep or I'm still tired. I've learned that because a lot of times when I wake up like this morning, I usually get up about 530. And I get up because of a couple of things, one that might very well be that I wake up. The other is I have a cat who likes to get petted while she eats. And one time during the night show, come and walk on me until I get up and go pet her while she's eating. And she loves it. And I've always told her, You don't get to double dip. You can't do that more than once. A couple of times she's tried. But at 530. If I start to move, she comes up and says hello again. So I usually get up. And mostly don't mind a bit. But occasionally I just really am tired, which tells me probably I didn't get enough sleep, although I try to go to bed early. So for me, I'm used to getting up in the morning, I'm used to being up and doing things because a lot of my jobs during my sales career, were selling from the West Coast to the East Coast. And the result was that I would be up early and fat for six months when I first started one job, Karen drove me 45 miles to go to work every day. And I had to be there by six to open the office to do that. And then later on. We moved down to the Carlsbad Vista area in California. So she didn't have to do that. She wasn't such a morning person. But at the same time, she could get up to ended. But for me, personally, I didn't mind getting up. But if I started to object I went oh, why am I doing that? So I guess that's some sort of self analysis. Rob Wentz 32:01It's interesting. Yeah, if I if I had to get up, man, I'll get up and I'm good. Right. I did morning radio for over half a decade. You know, morning radio, I had to be there at 5am to do the morning. Good point. And I loved it. It was awesome. So I can do it. But it's almost if I have a I have to do something then I'll get up if I don't have to. And I don't wake up. I get up at seven o'clock in the morning. It's not like I sleep in or anything. It seems to me and this is maybe still something I need to work on for myself is like that motivation to pop out of bed and like be excited. Like I am excited about I love what I do. Put me in the bed so comfy in the morning. Yeah, cozy. Yeah. Well, and I don't know if that changes. I don't Michael Hingson 32:52pop out of bed. But I I get up. And I know what what's coming up because I've thought about it the night before. And so I'm sort of programmed to be thinking about it when I wake up, and I get up and I enjoy it. But I also have a routine in the morning, on the weekends, different story, I will sleep late on the weekends, that's the time I get to sleep and I will do that. And even the cat mostly sleeps with me and leaves me alone my guide dog alamode is very easy. He doesn't get up at all until I get up and then he's all excited and wants to play and wants to eat wants to go outside and all that. So it works out pretty well. But, you know, it is a matter of recognizing what we have to do. And most mornings I do have to get up, although not necessarily right at 530 but it's easier to do. So. That's what I do. Rob Wentz 33:47I often think of there's a there's a Bible verse. I'm trying to think of it right now about sleep I'm not going to be able to think of it anyways, go ahead. I was going to try to recite it but it's not coming to me. Yeah, well I know from I know for me, like there's sleep is so is so fundamental and important, right but it's something along the lines about not loving sleep. I do not love sleep because it's a thief, right? It can be Yeah, it steals your time. Still it can steal your life away. So get and get what you need. But don't be overindulge don't Michael Hingson 34:23over indulge. Yeah. And that can be and I can see how that could be easy to do. That generally hasn't been the way I am. Like I said weekends I'll sleep especially now since it's just me in the house. So there's nothing unless there's a specific event there's nothing that requires me to get up so I'll sleep a little bit longer, but then that helps during the week when I don't sleep as much so it's okay. Well, you know, where do where do we get our vision for life from? How do we really slim that overall and how do we Do you lean into that? Or Rob Wentz 35:02they question? Do I go back to that question of I go back to the question of what did you want to do when you were 10 years old? I love that question so much. It speaks to me all the time I ask people that question. Actually, I want to ask you that question. What did you want to be when you were 10? Michael Hingson 35:18Well, as I said, I wanted to teach. I've always liked being around people. And so I figured I wanted to be a teacher. But I also, at the same time, I think I was pretty used to the concept of my life might change over time, and we'll see how it goes. But teaching I thought would always be part of what I did. Rob Wentz 35:42And so, for me, I wanted to be a radio DJ, I wanted to be a professional wrestler, right? So those two things. And I was a professional wrestler when I was 18 for six months, and I was not for me. So I when I think about vision, I think like there's life leaves clues behind, right? So there are clues throughout your life, that lead towards the vision in your life. So I spend, I spent a lot of time before I was a Christian meditating, I spent a lot of time praying and meditating, and just trying to like, let myself figure out like, what is this vision for my life. And I think a lot of it comes from, and this can be different for different people. But I love the idea of making your mess your message. And I think that's the part of the vision, we get things we are dealt bad hands, in our lives in certain areas of our lives. We get through those bad things in our life. And we can use those things to help other people. But getting through those things propels us forward. So our vision is kind of dictated around how we get past those things, and what those difficult things were in our life. In a general sense, this is how I often look at it, like a vision for what I want my life to be. I've made it through these difficult areas of my life, I've experienced these breakthroughs. What's the furthest I can go outside of that? So let me go one year, let me go five years, let me go 10 years, let me go to my funeral. Let me see myself in the casket. And and this is a difficult practice. But it's really helpful if I am in my casket. You know, it's kind of like, what is your tombstone? Say? Who's at your funeral? And what are they saying about you when they're at your funeral? For me, that's my vision of what if I'm gonna form the rest of like, my successes out of that form? Everything, everything would come out of like, okay, I'm in my casket, and people are standing over me. And they're saying things about me? What are they saying about me? How have I impacted the people in that room? How many people are there? Why are they there? And then reverse engineer, I love the concept of reverse engineering, right? So reverse engineer, here I am, I passed away I lived a full life I did amazing things. Here's what they're saying about me to how do I reverse engineer? And what does that look like? And that can go in a million different directions for a million different people. But in general, that's, I think if you're going to create a real vision, not just a financial vision, or not just you know, success, climbing the success, ladder vision, but a the spiritual vision for who you want to be whenever you pass away to the rest of the world. Then all the success in the material things will come along with that. And you can put those pieces together, once you figure out what you want people to say about you? Well, Michael Hingson 38:47it does. The interesting part about that is, let's say you're going through that exercise and you're going what are people saying about me when I'm in my casket? If you start to think well, they're not saying very nice things about me. I think introspection is a very important thing. And when you when you're doing it if you get that kind of a message about what people are saying, that's also something to reverse engineer and say why. And now we get back to our change issue. How do we deal with that? Exactly. Rob Wentz 39:20If you're if you're doing and you're honest with yourself, right? You're not blinding yourself to your to your flaws, and you're seeing what people were saying about you, man, that's there you go. There's the things I need to change right there. Yeah, they're saying like, well, maybe your kids I didn't see him enough. Or your friends said, Well, he, you know, he was always so wrapped up in his work or, you know, whatever it might be. Whenever things could be. It's like, oh, that's if your conscience tells you that and you're listening to your conscience. It'll reveal what those things are. So yeah, it can be really powerful, but it's also really difficult and it can be super painful to Do right, especially if you aren't doing some things the way you want to do them? Michael Hingson 40:03Well, and maybe the way you want to do them isn't necessarily the best way. And that's, or it might be the best way. And that's what you have to learn. You know, for me, I a couple of lessons that I've really come to embrace. One deals with being in the World Trade Center and getting out. And as I was running literally away from tower to, I heard a voice in my head while I started by saying, God, I can't believe you got us out of a building, just have one fall on us. And I heard a voice as clearly as you and I are talking now that said, don't worry about what you can't control. Focus on what you can and the rest will take care of itself. And it said, in my case, focus on running with Roselle, and you guys will be okay. Or you'll be okay. But I heard that voice. And the part that I think is the most significant is don't worry about the things you can't control. And so like with the World Trade Center, could we have as a country figured it out and predicted it and stopped it? I still haven't seen the evidence that we really could. Maybe we could have, which is another learning experience. But I'm not convinced of that. But even so, I didn't have control over that. And so the World Trade Center happened. And a lot of people say well, don't you have survivor's guilt? Or don't you feel bad about the people who died? And yes, I feel very sad about the people who died. Do I have survivor's guilt? No, I don't. Because I didn't have control over surviving. Unless I decided I was just going to stay in the building and see what happened. But clearly, that wasn't a choice that I was going to make. So the issue is, I didn't have control over the World Trade Center happening. But what I have have and had absolute control over was how I chose to deal with the World Trade Center happening. And when the opportunity, for example, came along, to travel somewhere because somebody said we'd like to hire you to come and speak and tell us what we should learn and all that. It just resonated. And I went that seemed like the right thing to do. Chris, what I, what I tell people, when I describe it is I, I was sitting in my office thinking about the fact that people want to hire me to come and speak. selling computers can be a real challenge for a lot of reasons in terms of selling to a committee and doing all sorts of stuff. So why do I want to sell computers when people want to hire me just to come and talk to them? So but it really is a whole lot more complicated than that. And the reality is that it was worth doing. I felt at the time and still absolutely feel. Because if it helps people move on and helps people deal with their own issues, then it's worth doing. Rob Wentz 42:42Absolutely, man, I mean that there's the blessing that was that came out of a bad situation. You know, what a blessing that came out of that. And what, how cool, that was not how cool because people passed away. But what an interesting way and cool way for your life to transform from such a tragic event. That's, I love hearing that kind of stuff. Because, man, what a terrible day, what a terrible moment in American history. But at the same time, how many people have you helped, because of that event happening and you surviving it? Well, and Michael Hingson 43:18the issue is that, of course, dealing with the World Trade Center or anything like that, where an unexpected change happens. If you really stop and look at it, you can trace what you do to the choices that you made along the way. I mean, I can, I can go back and look at a lot of choices in my life that I've made. That got me to exactly where I am. A couple of the choices weren't necessarily the best. But like with the World Trade Center happening. And then I had the choice to I continue to sell computers, it's the safe thing to do. I have a good income, it should continue. But then this incredible opportunity came along. And how could I resist? That was kind of the way I looked at it. Yeah. And that's actually what what Karen felt as well. We both agreed that if it would help other people move on from September 11, for me to speak, if I could teach people a little bit more about blindness and guide dogs and other things like that and have an impact it was worth doing. And there's so many stories I've heard since about why it was worth doing. Rob Wentz 44:27Absolutely. And to go off of what you were saying they're the voice that you heard right as clearly as as we're talking now when you were in the World Trade Center you don't worry about what you can control. Was that some what what did it say Michael Hingson 44:44was it don't worry about what you can control and in this case, it was focused on running with Roselle, but it's the same thing focus on what you can and the rest will take care of itself. Rob Wentz 44:53So I had a dream back in. I think it was December of 2020 My ex wife and I had separated we set we were had a two year separation. And that was just it was just a real big question mark transition period of my life and for the world, right, we were still in the midst of the pandemic and stuff like that. And I had this dream. I was with my grandma. So my grandma passed away. And she, we were always close. And her and I were driving in a car and this dream over this bridge in my in my town that I live in. And she was driving, which she never drove anywhere. We're not she did, she never drove me anywhere. I bet I can recall, Michael Hingson 45:34except crazy. Rob Wentz 45:38She never drove me crazy. Okay, very sweet. But she was holding my hand. But I looked down at my hand, and it was a little kid's hand. So I was like a little kid, I was probably four or five years old. And while we're driving, going over this bridge, she leans over and gives me a big hug. And I started freaking out saying, Graham, you're gonna wreck the car, you got to look at where we're going. And she said to me, don't worry about where I'm going, just love me. And she said, Don't worry about where you're going, just love people. And obviously, that was God in the dream speaking through my grandma. And that message has stuck with me, it was such a real, I've never had a more real dream in my life. Like it hit me. I woke up crying, and I cried for days, on and off after that, so I kept reliving it. And it was it had such a visceral, like, ah, you know, I can feel right now. And I talked about it, it's just, it was so real. The truth in it, and it was so simple. So I've spent my life worrying about where I'm going to go trying to control things, right. And not spending as much time just loving the process and loving people. And so I think about that often in your what God said to you inside of the World Trade Center has made me think of that, which is kind of the same message, right? Stop worrying about how it's going to turn out how you're gonna get there, where it's gonna go, just love people while you're going through it. And that's the best that you can do. Michael Hingson 47:06And be open to getting messages be open to change and be open to moving forward. Yeah. Which, which brings up something and I think I know the answer to this, but tell me about the significance of the acorn and the oak tree. Rob Wentz 47:20Oh, man, that's going back to Ray, my mentor. That's one of his favorite stories, right? Yeah. So the entire potential of the oak tree is inside of the acorn, right? So that that giant, hundreds of foot feet tall oak tree is inside of every acorn, but if that acorns thrown in the shale, right, it's not going to do anything, if it's sitting in on your porch, it's not going to do anything. You know that acorn has to be planted in the nutrients that it needs in the ground. Right. So there's the potential in everybody to become a massive oak tree, which is, you know, just everything you'd ever want all of the potential you could ever have, is there. But if you're not planted in fertile soil, which for us would be rooted in truth, right? Having the right people in your life, having been paying attention, listening, thinking the right things, putting yourself in the right in the right situations, following following truth. I love it so much. Because the It's crazy to think like you see that acorn. And inside of that, if you plant it in the soil with all the nutrients that it needs, it is going to grow into a massive oak tree and it's not going to happen overnight. It's going to take a long time for it to get there. But all of that potential is inside of there. It's really really, I think about that is it's a fascinating concept, because it shows that we all have that potential we all have that God given potential. It might. It's not might it will look different for everyone as we grow. That's okay. We keep feeding ourselves those correct nutrients, we will we will prosper into that potential. Yeah, Michael Hingson 49:15exactly. And that potential is available for every single one of us. It's really a matter of dealing with getting the right nutrients and getting into the right soil. And I think instinctively most of us know how to do that. Or we allow ourselves to be guided to it. And again, all too often, we let the walls get in the way and we don't get there which is a problem. Rob Wentz 49:42Yeah, and for I think for most people to one of the things we're really struggling with right now in society, we need more nature in our life. You need more peace and nature, the more I get out, away from the computer, right, which of course we're on right now. But I've been spending so much more time not on my computer not on my phone. Funny thing I live in a rural area. Well, it's a smaller town. But there's a lot of rural around me. And I have some ex Mennonite friends who invent Mennonites are like, close to the Amish. They're like, they're like immediate. They're like the in between, they can't decide if their kids decide if they're Amish, they can't decide if they're civilians, right, regular civilian. So it's like this middle ground, but their ex Mennonites, and they have a landscaping and hardscaping company. And this summer, I felt so compelled to just be outside my office that I'm in right now I have two big windows in front of me. So I'm getting good. I get good sunlight. But it's like I can see how beautiful it is outside. And I'm in here on this computer all day long. So I actually went to him and said, Hey, can I do? I just wanted to do like, you know, 10 hours, maybe 15 hours a week, part time, just digging in the dirt, building stuff and being outside. And it has been so helpful. And so I've I've had so many breakthroughs, and my coaching business has grown more in the past two and a half months than it did in the past eight months, or nine months from I personally believe this from me getting away from technology, not thinking about it, not obsessing over it and doing things that are totally Honestly these things are foreign to me like I don't know how to build patios, that we're building patios, and I'm out there sweating. And I'm focusing on pounding a nail in or focusing on power washing something off, or whatever it might be. And I noticed that my life is getting better and more peaceful. A lot of my aches and pains are going away, there's shoulder pain that I often have the hip pain that I often have, these pains are not as prevalent. It's been like really eye opening. For me, it's been very, very helpful. And I feel like for a lot of people, the thing we're stressing and struggling with the most is, we're constantly going, going going. And we're not out in nature just just being and just doing. Michael Hingson 52:17For me, one of the things that I don't like to do, when I fly to travel somewhere to speak, I don't like to work on airplanes. And I know there are a lot of people who are doing it, I like to sit and read. It's one of the times, not the only time by any standard, but it's the time I prepare before going somewhere and unwind after being somewhere, I sit and I read and I enjoy it. I just played relax. And I find that I do much better as a speaker, when I take those hours of time to relax, because I know that when I land somewhere to speak, I need to be on from the time I land until I leave. And that's draining in a lot of ways. And so taking that time is important. And you know, I know what you're saying about being on the computer all the time. And yeah, that's something that that we don't need to do. I use my computer as a communications device and a lot of other things that that require me to use it. But I recognize that it's a tool. And I also know that if need be I can move away from it and not have a problem doing that. I'm not locked into having to be on the computer and running the computer all day every day. Rob Wentz 53:34Michael that thing about the airplanes so good. I love airplanes and road trips, because it's like it's it's total freedom, like an airplane, you're not responsible for anything on a road trip, unless you're driving then your response. But even on a road trip when you are driving. It's like I don't have to worry about anything else right now. All I have to do is drive this car on an airplane. It's a total it's a it's an opportunity just to fully disconnect. You have no responsibilities, and you're kind of this for me it goes back to this whole kid concept. You're kind of like a kid again. Yeah. Just Just do whatever the heck you want to do and enjoy it. I love Italy. So what's the secret for people to get unstuck? Well, the secret to get unstuck is to get some butter. You got to lather yourself up really well. There you go WIGGLE yourself out of maybe get some cooking oil or something. Get yourself out of that spot. You're trapped in every every sitcom where a kid got his head stuck between the railings of the stairs going upstairs and they butter his head up the poles head out. Yeah. But the I think the trick to getting stuck is all the things we've been talking about. One of the biggest things that's been working for me. I'm going to try to say a couple of things here and not me mix them all up together. I think getting unstuck is you need the vision, right? So in the in that book I was talking about, it's called the vital system that I created that it when I'm coaching people, I take them through the vitals, the V is for vision, the eye is for impact. The T is for transformation, or technology, depending on the conversation we're having. The A is for action, the L is for leadership, and the S is for service. So if we're going to get unstuck, we need to have a vision for our life. So you need a vision of where you're going and what does that look like. And like we talked about the funeral test, reverse engineering, the eye is for impact like we should. If you think of anybody if you can, if you can think of someone So Michael, think of somebody right now just named somebody. Michael Hingson 55:46Um, my favorite teacher, declarable Shimer? Rob Wentz 55:50Okay, declarable Shriver had an impact on your life. Oh, yeah. Like you wouldn't say his name unless he made an impact on your life. And still does. And still, right still does. So you need to make an impact. If you want to get unstuck, you have to gravitate towards impact and gravitate towards people who have made a positive impact in your life. The T. One is transformation, right? Because I think breakthrough transformation, those are things we need to experience. That's what if we want to be if we want to get unstuck, we need to transform into something new, we need to transform into a new version of ourselves or find a higher potential. But that T is also for technology, when I'm working with businesses and things like that. Oftentimes, it is using new technology, not letting technology use you. So right now we're in this whole AI space. And it seems scary, and we I don't even know it, none of us really know where this is going. But I'm going to use it to my advantage to help me move forward. So I think for a lot of businesses, using the right technology to get unstuck is very important, not sticking your head and head in the sand, being open to change the A for action. So you have to take action, I have an acronym that I always use, which is w m NNMW. We move now, no matter what. So no matter what is going on, keep moving forward. It might not be the perfect decision, but make a decision to move. The L is for leadership. We, you have to we have to be personal leaders, whether you desire to be a leader or not too bad. Like you're, you're some form of leader somewhere in your life. And if you're not leading your own life, somebody else's. And then the S is for service. How can you be of service to others? How can you show up for other people? What are you doing that is of service that gets you outside of yourself. So you're not thinking about you and your problem so much if you focus you're it's so true. And this is when I heard Tony Robbins talk about service years ago, I didn't get it. And I was so wrapped up in my own crap, that I couldn't be of service to anybody, because I couldn't get past me and my own problems. But the more I spend time helping others and being of service to others, the less I think about me, and the better I get. It's really an interesting, it's so counterintuitive, but I in a simple form. That's what I would say to get unstuck are those acronym, that acronym of the vital system. And the reason I do my podcast, the unstuck movement is because we need stories of perseverance. So we need examples. So I think it's, you know, in the beginning, you need the examples, oh, somebody else got unstuck from a situation similar to mine. So I know that I can do it too. So it's good to know. But then the vital system is like the propulsion to like, get you through that stuck period. And we're going to keep getting stuck, I feel like I you plateau, you can call it getting stuck, or you can call it plateauing. But like we all plateau at certain places in our lives. And you need to have a breakthrough to get through that next plateau, and then another one will come. And it's good to know that in life, it's really good to know and acknowledge I'm going to plateau, I'm going to get stuck stuck somewhere down the road here. And as long as I know that's going to happen now, it's not going to be this catastrophic thing when it happens. I remember thinking like, when I was younger, oh, if I just get this benchmark done for school, then I don't have to worry about anything. So I get the project done. And I'm like, Oh, I can just screw off now. But then there's always something right around the corner that's coming again. There's always something new coming right around the corner. So acknowledging life is about progress. Life is about breakthrough in you're supposed to get stuck so you can get the breakthrough to reach more of your potential. Michael Hingson 59:52And it all starts with making the choice to do it. Sometimes we we think we're not making the choice and we're just led to it There were pushed into it. But ultimately, it's our choice. Yeah. Rob Wentz 1:00:03Which is an important look at it like, well, what's there's an opportunity here, there's an opportunity to grow and everything that is bad in your life. And I know that's easy to say, because I haven't gone through some of the really difficult things other people have gone through. But I just know for myself personally, and hearing it from other people, that those things, every difficult thing is an opportunity for you to have that breakthrough. Michael Hingson 1:00:29And we need to really make that our mindset that it is an opportunity, life's an adventure, full of opportunity, and we just need to learn to take it when the opportunities come along. Yes, absolutely. Well, if people want, because I Rob Wentz 1:00:47just want to say, you know, things can happen to you in life. But if you're not in the, like, people say, like luck, there's no such thing as luck. It's whenever opportunity meets experience, right. So if you're, if you an opportunity can arise, that's an amazing opportunity. But you're not prepared by you if you've not prepared to be ready for that opportunity. So if it comes to you at the wrong time, when you're not prepared. That's not luck, right? But when you're prepared, and you've your experience, and you're ready for it, that opportunity arises. Now all the sudden, you're lucky, right? So I look at ways to be more prepared is like to constantly be working on yourself to be growing to become a better version of yourself. Because every day all day long, there's opportunities all over the place for you in your life, opportunities to help other people, opportunities for you to grow for you to serve. If you look at life, from that perspective, you will see opportunities all day long. Michael Hingson 1:01:56And the reality is that when you prepare, the opportunity come and when you don't prepare, the opportunities may very well have been there, but you weren't prepared enough to recognize them. And so you let them pass you by Rob Wentz 1:02:10you got your blinders on. So you can see them really interesting. Michael Hingson 1:02:14Well, if people want to reach out to you, maybe talk to you about being their coach or learn more about the unstuck movement and so on. How do they do that? Rob Wentz 1:02:23The best way is to get a hold of me. My website is lead impact transform.com lit coaching that stands for lead Impact Transform. So lead impact transform.com Facebook, if you want to reach out probably the easiest way to get a hold of me Rob Z Wentz. On Facebook, just send me a friend request. I'll accept the friend request. And we can chat from there. Those are the two easiest ways to get ahold and whence is spelled W E N. T Z. Michael Hingson 1:02:52There you go. So Rob, see whence? Well, I want to thank you for being here. And this has been an absolutely insightful and fun conversation. I've had fun. I hope you have Rob Wentz 1:03:04certainly had Michael say the least getting to know you too. Man. I I just want to say and honor you, I love what you do. I love your enthusiasm and your passion, the fact that you've helped so many people going back to 911. And even before that, what an incredible story you have. I'm just honored to to know you and get a chance to like, share with you and have you share with me. It means a lot to me. So thank you. Michael Hingson 1:03:30Well, the honor is mine. And I really appreciate all the time that you've taken with us today in the fact that we got to be on your podcast as well. So people if they want to listen to your podcast, how do they do that? What's it called again? Rob Wentz 1:03:41It's called the unstuck movement. And right now, the best way is to find it any podcast app, right. So podcast, Apple, Spotify, you know, every podcast app you can think of it's on there and then I put the videos right now you can see all the videos on Facebook on my Rob Z Wentz Facebook page. eventually there'll be up on YouTube and going a bunch of different places, but right now they're all on Facebook. Cool. Michael Hingson 1:04:07Well, thanks again for doing this and being here and I want to thank you for listening to us today. Reach out to Rob I know he'd love to hear from you. I'd love to hear from you and I'm easy to reach. You can get me by email Michael h i mi ch AE l h i addicts SV ACCE ssip.com Or go to our podcast page. Got to have those WWW dot Michael Hinkson H ing s o n.com/podcast. But wherever you're listening and as Rob said, it is true for us as well. You can hear us and probably are on all sorts of different platforms and so on. Please give us a five star rating we appreciate it we love it. Love to hear your thoughts love to hear your feedback and any thing that you want to say to us and for you, Robin you listening, if you know of anyone else who we ought to have as a guest on unstoppable mindset Please let us know introduce us, we are always looking for more people to come on and chat with about whatever they want to chat about, because as Rob will tell you, this is really talking about what you want to talk about, not what I want to talk about. And that's one of the things that we really love. So Rob once more, I want to thank you for being here and taking the time with us today. Rob Wentz 1:05:19Thank you so much, it was an honor. Michael Hingson 1:05:26You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com . AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

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So what does the term “HR” mean to you? What is the HR industry? How has it changed over the past several years? These are questions that our guest, Matthew Burr, answers at the beginning of our conversation. Matthew has been an HR consultant for nearly seventeen years. While we do talk about the state of HR, Matthew discusses many aspects of leadership, being a coach and consultant and how all of us in the work-a-day world can learn and grow both in our working and personal lives. One of the most interesting topics Matthew and I discuss deals with the first two books he published which are all about successfully paying off student loans in a fraction of the usual time. He will explain that while discipline is important, there really are strategies that may very well help you to get out from under student loans or any debt sooner rather than later. Listen in and see what lessons and thoughts you can take away from this episode of Unstoppable Mindset. About the Guest: Matthew Burr has over 16-years of experience working in the human resources field, starting his career as an Industrial Relations Intern at Kennedy Valve Manufacturing to most recently founding and managing a human resource consulting company; Burr Consulting, LLC, Talentscape, LLC and Co-Owner of Labor Love, a Labor, and Employment Law poster printing company. Prior to founding the consulting firm, the majority of his career was heavy industry manufacturing and healthcare. He specializes in compliance auditing, training labor and employment law, conflict resolution, performance management, labor, and employment relations. Matthew has a generalist background in HR and operations, while providing strategic HR and operational solutions to his clients, focusing on small and medium sized organizations. He works as an Adjunct at Alfred State University, Tompkins Cortland Community College, and The College of St. Rose. He successfully designed an HR Concentration in the business management major that aligned with both SHRM and HRCI certifications, providing opportunities for students to sit for both the SHRM-CP and aPHR certifications upon completion of the degree, concentration, and internship hours as an Assistant Professor of Management at Elmira College (Retired January 2022). Matthew is also the SHRM Certification Exam Instructor, with a current pass rate of 92% on the SHRM-SCP and 83% pass rate on the SHRM-CP and a combined 88% on both exams over a 7-year period of instructing the course (Elmira College, Collin College & The College of St. Rose). Matthew works as a trainer Tompkins Cortland Community College, Corning Community College, Broome Community College, and HR Instructor for Certification Preparation for the Human Resource Certification Institute (HRCI). He also acts as an On-Call Mediator and Factfinder through the Public Employment Relations Board in New York State, working with public sector employers and labor unions. Ways to connect with Matthew:https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0CC4L6ZQH?ref_=cm_sw_r_apan_dp_Y6A40806CGYDQDJFVR09_1Burr Consulting, LLCBlog: What’s New in HRiTunes: The Upstate HR PodcastFacebook: Burr Consulting, LLCLinkedIn: Burr Consulting, LLCTwitter: @Burrconsulting About the Host:Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children’s Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association’s 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.comhttps://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/https://twitter.com/mhingsonhttps://www.youtube.com/user/mhingsonhttps://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ accessiBe Linkshttps://accessibe.com/https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBehttps://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can also subscribe in your favorite podcast app. Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts. Transcription Notes

Michael Hingson 00:00Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us. Michael Hingson 01:21Well, hi, once again, this is Mike Hingson and I want to welcome you to another edition of unstoppable mindset where inclusion diversity in the unexpected meet. And our guests. Matthew Burr certainly has lots of experience with the unexpected. He has been in the HR profession for 16 years, he's done a lot of teaching, he's done a lot of consulting, has amassed a great amount of expertise. And I'm gonna let him talk more about that than then. Me doing it because he's the guy who should know. So Matthew, welcome to unstoppable mindset. We're really glad you're here. Matthew Burr 01:56Yeah, Michael, again, appreciate you having me on here, your podcast and always happy to, to join and answer any questions and tell any any crazy stories I've dealt with over the last 16, almost 17 years, it'd be 17 years in December, I started my consulting company eight years ago in October, so October of 2015. And really like to support any organization small, you know, small organization up to medium size on the HR front and help, you know, business does really align HR strategy to the needs of their organization and watch leaders grow and evolve and become very, very well versed in the Employee Relations and making sure we're doing everything compliant as well. Michael Hingson 02:40Works for me, needless to say, Well, why don't we start maybe going back a little further and tell us kind of about the early Matthew, getting stuck, you know, growing up and why you ended up where you were and that kind of thing, because something had to start that process. But you you started out as a kid like the rest of us and tell me about that. Matthew Burr 03:02Yeah, you know, again, started out really came from Logan, Utah, right around right north of Logan, Utah. I grew up there for 14 years and then made the decision to leave home when I was 14 years old and move across the country and realized it really going down I think a bad path in life not making the best decisions. My parents separated early on in life and didn't have a great relationship with either them and was able to make the decision and come back to upstate New York and live with family when I was 15 and finish out high school and from there went on to college and I think struggle in the beginning. Right. I didn't do great in college. And ironically now i They let me teach at these schools after having a few, a few bad semesters. I'll just put it that way. But yeah, I mean, again, just kind of finding my footing, you know, early on in life and in the you know, early 2000s 2001 2002 didn't really know what I was going to do. I decided to relocate to Phoenix for a little while and move back to Utah, worked in a call center for I don't know six or seven months and realize that the academic path was probably the right place for me to be I realized there was more. I think there was a calling to get back in and finish the academic side and decided to return to New York and finished my associates degree at a community college went on to get my bachelor's degree and while I was an undergraduate decided to pursue an HR internship and I've stayed in the career field ever since and then really been able to grow into a professional I mean, and again, my education really hasn't stopped. I'm recently completing a Lean Six Sigma black belt as well. Just that actually tonight's the last class on that. So I've really been in college, buy in in certifications on and off probably for the past 22 years is trying to upskill myself and do what I can do to make a difference in the market. Damak world and also in the consulting world, so I do teach part time as well. You know, the number of schools as an adjunct professor truly enjoy that I was a full time professor for five years, retired from that field and was able to continue to do some teaching part time online. I do a lot of travel now and live out of state in Texas at times from New York. So teaching in a classroom gets incredibly complicated when you travel like that. So yeah, I mean, again, you know, spend played football golf when I was younger baseball as well, it's been a lot of time in the weight room and trying to just keep myself you know, mentally sane, dealing with some of the craziness, you know, that I deal with on the HR front, but, ya know, it's, it's been it's been a great a great life, I wouldn't ask for anything different challenges and really blessed I got to live a blessed life, which I'm appreciate elbow. So Michael Hingson 05:53Well, that certainly is cool by any standard, what got you from college then to go into HR? I know you started out in as an intern in a valve manufacturing company and so on. Was that HR or what got you into that? Matthew Burr 06:10Yeah, so when I was a senior in Elmira College, the there was a requirement to, to complete an internship and I was lucky enough, you know, in really interviewed well, to get that internship in the industrial relations department, which is your your HR department, it's an old school word for HR. My grandfather actually worked there for 35 years as an electrician. So being able to work in the same facility with some of the same people he worked with was a very unique experience. And during that internship, I had taken a Myers Briggs test personality test in one of my classes, and HR, attorney, marketing manager and financial advisor all came up with my personality aligned, the personality that align with the career and I was already doing the internship and HR looked at the other fields and really stuck with this when I did apply to law school in 2014 2015, was wait listed a number of schools and was unsuccessful in getting admitted, but I've had a good ride in the HR field. So really, the internship and then the personality test, kind of set me on the path to success in the HR field at this point. Michael Hingson 07:25Well, and looking at your bio, though, you clearly have and it makes perfect sense to have a knowledge or some knowledge of HR law and, and being able to be conversant in that whether you're actually a certified real degreed or whatever, lawyer, you still have a lot of knowledge that you've gained over the years about that, and I assume that that has helped a lot. Yeah, Matthew Burr 07:50and I did i my i do have three master's degrees. And the last one was a master's degree in jurisprudence, Labor Employment Law through two lane it's not a JD, but it is a master's degree in specific HR law, which, which has been helpful. I mean, it's an area that I've specialized in really, throughout my career and understanding it in detail. The laws change across the country, even state and local white on the HR front, I would say insurance takes daily, so it's an area you've got to be well versed in, but yeah, absolutely. And I work closely with a lot of attorneys in the work that I do. And I've always been interested in the law, labor law, employment law, so it was really a natural fit, happy to have that knowledge. And it's continuous education as things evolve, for sure. So Michael Hingson 08:37well, how do you define HR in the in the HR world? You know, I suppose there are probably a lot of different ways to describe it, but how would you describe HR? Um, you know, I Matthew Burr 08:51see it as an evolving area, I in many organizations where I think it was seen as much more administrative, you know, benefit enrollment, hire people, fire people, your new hire paperwork, the employee handbook, maybe some training too much more strategic, where we're helping align, really HR departments, with the needs of the organization, looking at business, HR, business partners, strategic partners, and helping drive business solutions through the human resources department. That's where I see it going. I think we have a long way to go. As a profession. I think that HR, the profession in general needs to understand, you know, finances and operations, customer service and the internal workings of an organization as you evolve into a more seasoned strategic professional. But yeah, you know, it's gotten from much more transactional type of work to much more strategic So, but that's where I see it going. And again, there's always I think, areas of opportunity improvement for any HR professional or any department to look at based on the needs of the organization. So Michael Hingson 09:59Yeah, well, obviously that can even be a moving target depending on what the organization is doing or how it's evolving as well. Sure, Matthew Burr 10:10absolutely. Yeah. No, absolutely. I mean, definitely. And again, I think one of the key focuses, recently has obviously been on the great resignation people, you know, the turnover rates across around the world has been astronomical, and how do we continue to maintain? You know, you know, internal growth, succession planning, when people are changing jobs every 12 to 24 months or less at this point? Right. And I, you know, again, I think mental health has become a big deal as well, I think we've had a lot of challenges with that in the workplace, the culture, the communication, all those areas, I think HR plays an intricate role in helping drive strategy on and helping evolving based on the needs of, you know, the business, the workforce, and the and really the consumer as well. So Michael Hingson 10:56you can think about this whole concept and phenomena that we're experiencing now where people change jobs every 12 to 24 months, it didn't used to be that way. Why is it shifted to doing that? And is that necessarily a good thing? Or how valuable would it be if we got back to more of a mindset where people stayed at one place longer? Matthew Burr 11:23You know, and I was talking about this yesterday with another another person. And I mentioned a study, I'd read that the study out of Europe said Gen Z is going to change jobs or change careers potentially 30 times throughout their career lifespan, right. I mean, that's, that's a, that's a huge number at this point. You're changing jobs every 12 to 15 months. There's, I think there's value in in turn, and organizations in turnover related to, you know, bringing in fresh ideas fresh, you know, fresh blood, not looking at the way we've always operated. I think that it does, it is harmful to organizations, if we're having 80 90% of turnover, every club and there's problems in an organization, right. But I think if we can show the value in in growing succession planning and developing internal talent and get that communication out to the workforce, you are going to have opportunities to recruit and retain. Look from a longevity standpoint, I think if you can retain talent, you can bring the right people in and grow talent, you're ahead of the competition, because I think that's an area that most businesses struggle with right now. And so how do we do that? How do we make sure people are empowered? Engaged? It's discussions I think most organizations around the world are having at this point. Michael Hingson 12:45Why do you think we've migrated toward this kind of a situation as opposed to people staying at companies a whole lot longer? Matthew Burr 12:54Well, I mean, you got, you know, pension, pension plans are pretty much gone at this point. I think those were big. I mean, you know, the I think the retiree benefits and things like that, that used to be offered at major corporations are non existent anymore. I think that plays a role in it. I think the loyalty factor to an extent, is gone. But I also think people are looking for promotional opportunities and growth. And I think we've got to be able to sell that internal in organizations to show there is a path to growth, a path to success, if you're willing to take on the challenge. And, you know, and do the hard work to get there. You know, again, I think that that is one area. I also think that organizations at times struggle with disengagement I think people become bored in roles. I think we have communication issues, decision making inconsistencies, the psychological workplace contract, I think is evolved at this point. You know, again, do people want hybrid remote work jobs? are we offering that as an organization? Those are all questions, I think that every organization has to look at and figure out what works best for them, and how do we recruit and retain talent? I think, you know, a lot of times what it comes down to in what I do as a consultant, at the end of the day is workplace communication. It seems like we're lacking their leadership. I think conflict management, leadership decision making is another one consistent accountabilities and other things as well. The accountability factor is another area to think about there too. You know, again, I think the equity of processes and policies internal is another thing to take a look at. I mean, all those things I think play a role in the churn and dissatisfaction at times in the workplace. I think if you can get your hands around those as as an organization you're going to be in much better position you know, to be competitive and recruit retain people. Michael Hingson 14:53Yeah, um, this year, maybe I miss assess Same, but it seems to be that we're finding more groups striking than I've seen in quite a while. Is it just kind of coincidence that we've had like the writers and the actors and the I guess, United Auto Workers? I don't know, what are they still planning a strike? Or did they come to an agreement and then hotel workers and there are others, seeing a lot more people in essentially unionizing kind of environments are striking more than I think we've had in the past. Does that really hold true? Or am I miss assessing that? Matthew Burr 15:38Yeah, I mean, again, I think that, you know, one thing I will say about it is labor does have the advantage to an extent for sure. I mean, I think there is absolute, the labor and union or non union, I think people know, they have the advantage, because there is so many there are so many job openings. There. There is a need for workers. And frankly, I mean, again, some of the settlements, some of these other unions have gotten pilots, I think, you know, the railroad workers have really set the bar pretty high and the UAW coming in wanting like a 50%. pay increase. Yeah, 30 hour week. So yeah, UPS also made sure I don't I don't want to forget the Teamsters and ups, that was another major settlement for labor at this point. So you've seen some significant settlements related to, you know, related to this. And and so, you know, again, I think that yeah, I mean, you see, strike Starbucks is another one at this point. Yeah. I've seen it. But ya know, I think that labor has the advantage across the across the world. And people know that it's not just strikes in this country. There's strikes globally, globally at this point as well. So Michael Hingson 16:51yeah, well, and again, I'm not saying that they're bad men in any way, shape, or form. But I just noticed that there seems to be an increase. Well, look what's going on in France, they're, they're irate over changing the retirement age from 62. To 64. Matthew Burr 17:11Yeah, exactly. I mean, I some of those, I mean, some of those strikes, and we haven't seen I mean, you know, there's been some strikes, but the UAW has not struck yet, you know, Teamsters. Pilots didn't, pilots did some, you know, I think some I'd call some work slowdowns and things like that there was some picketing, but you some of that stuff. Now, globally, it really has gotten pretty violent. I, ya know, I mean, it's, it is it is a complicated time between labor and management, and obviously, labor and government as well. So Michael Hingson 17:45well, how do HR departments and in leaders in HR, and I think leadership is something relatively well, well worth talking about? But how do they help influence or shape policies in companies? Or how can they? And do? Do company leaders really listen to HR? Matthew Burr 18:09I mean, again, it comes down to do you get have you? Have you earned a seat at the table within your organization, whether it's a non for profit, or government agency, or even a major Fortune? 500? Right. I mean, do you? Do you have the credibility to walk in and make those decisions and help guide that policy? Yeah, I mean, I think that every HR professional should strive to do that, I think people need to be well versed, again, on the business side, on the people side, number one, people side number two business side, and then a close number three is obviously the the Labor and Employment Law side as well. So all those things play a role in helping drive and dictate policy and strategy. But you've got to understand it in detail. I mean, you really do have to be a business centric HR person to help drive those in. And as well have the people in soft skill, the human side of it is critically important as well, the psychological side. But I mean, again, a lot of those policies and procedures, and decisions and processes are going to be dictated on on the legal side as well. So you've got to be well versed in that component as well, a lot of times, you see. And again, I've done work with labor unions for years at this point. A lot of times what happens is, you see the labor relations and the contract negotiations farmed out to attorneys. I mean, I've never even thought about doing that as a as an HR professional that does labor. I mean, but most places have gotten away from having HR people manage labor negotiations, labor contracts, which I think is not a great sign. I think that HR people need to be versed in those things to be effective in their careers. So Well, Michael Hingson 19:49it seems to me that good HR people have a gift or a strength of being able to relate to people, the people that they serve, which is a Of course, a lot of different aspects of a company. But if you farm things out, you're losing or giving up that whole ability to establish and maintain the relationships that you really need to have. Matthew Burr 20:11Yeah, no, absolutely. And again, it comes down to relationships, and really maneuvering to get things done. You have to have the relationships with the employees, you have to have the relationships with the management team as well. No. And with the unit, I mean, if we're talking, you know, labor at that point, you've got to have the third party relationship at this point, too, so definitely, but Michael Hingson 20:34I know you talked about strategic leadership. What does that exactly? Matthew Burr 20:39You know, I mean, again, I think it's again, driving really driving organization. It's driving strategy, right? It's looking at, you know, looking at the three to five year process for the organization, helping understand making business decisions, based on the needs of the organization in the workforce, I think it's looking at saying, Okay, where do we need to innovate? Where do we need to change mission vision values, really understanding that understanding the financial components helping budget, and then relating it back to HR? I mean, and again, I think there is, you know, strong alignment with HR strategy and the needs of the organization, if you're able to turn the HR department into more of a strategic, I would say, strategic partner at this point in organizations, which I think the the career field is, is still evolving. So, yeah. Michael Hingson 21:35And it is, it's a process needless to say, well, you know, one of the things I've thought about, and I know and some of our discussions, I think we've touched on it, maybe even before today, but anyone who's a professional at a company, would you view them? Or would you think that the best mindset that they could really adopt would be to be to consider themselves a consultant to be able to advise and to help and whatever else is implied by being a consultant? Yeah, Matthew Burr 22:08yeah. I mean, and I think that's the book I wrote about HR consulting unboxer HR career, really, you know, it's driven in the book itself is prefaced on how to build an HR consulting company like bootstrap it from scratch at this point. But one of the messages I talked to HR professionals about in some of the speaking engagements that I do on this topic is you've got to look at yourself as an internal consultant, right? What's the return on investment for from an HR department standpoint for the organization? What value are you adding to the organization? How are you effective? Are you measuring your effectiveness? Are you seeking feedback? Can you can you show us some wins and losses, and that's the type of thing you got to look at, I think if you look at your job, as an internal consultant, or even at you know, looking at it as an external consultant, you know, those are things you can do to truly, truly I think, evolve your HR career, your HR department and and really make a major difference at the end of the day for any organization. And eventually, you might become a consultant after that, where you're like, Okay, I can do this. And I can do it for many organizations. And I think that if people look at that, really, as a strategic partner, a consultant, like a decision maker, or you know, trying to establish that relationship, within the relationships within the organization, I think the sky's the limit, I think, again, you're going to understand the needs of not only the workforce, the needs of the business, but also the needs of that consumer or patron or customer, whatever that might be community as well. So Michael Hingson 23:43well, the other aspect of that, it seems to me is, it goes beyond HR, I think that anyone who really is involved in a company, no matter what their job, could view their position, or maybe ought to view their, their, their job and position as being a consultant. And that implies in part that you have expertise that you can share and should share. And if you're doing it well then other people appreciate you sharing and providing your knowledge. Matthew Burr 24:14Yep. Yeah, absolutely. And and again, I think that with that apps, you know, if you're looking at it from that lens, and you're saying, Okay, what's the return on investment for my services? How am I making a difference? You know, in the, in the organization, the community in the world, I think you're going to look at things a lot differently. And again, I think part of that goes back to it and at some of the coaching that I do with with executive coaching I do on the side with managers is looking at like an internal SWOT analysis yourself, what are your strengths? What are your weaknesses, where your opportunities and or your threats, both personally and professionally, and I think as you piecemeal that together, kind of map that out on a on a SWOT analysis type diagram, you're going to see again And what you're where your subject matter expert in and where you might need to improve. And I think that as you evolve your skill set your emotional intelligence, you're going to see a major difference not only in your, in your professional life, but also your personal life as well. So Michael Hingson 25:15yeah, I think that's really it, it it, it does filter into both. And the bottom line is if you really look at it that way, and you analyze what you're doing and how it's being received, then you have questions you can answer if you feel it's not being received, well, why? If it is being received? Well, that's great, and how could you maybe even do it better, and so on, but those are the kinds of things that especially if you discover that you're truly being successful, might going back to what we discussed earlier, help lead you towards staying somewhere where you're successful. Yeah, Matthew Burr 25:50and look, I mean, with anything in life, I think you've got to recognize we're going to make mistakes, you know, fail forward is a term that I like to use, finding opportunities, looking at ways to evolve your own skill set, looking at ways that you need to change personally and professionally. And as I think you get into that mindset of continuous growth, kind of being obsessed with, with doing things better, getting yourself in a better position. Again, I think it just spills over into everything. discipline and consistency are two terms I use, in everything that I do. If you're disciplined and consistent, I think that's going to take you a lot farther than talent. Well, at this point. I mean, if you're that structured, you're doing the right thing, trying to try and improve yourself, and helping other people get better. I think, again, the sky's the limit, both personally and professionally, to really live the life that you want and achieve the goals that you have at that point. So Michael Hingson 26:43Well, yeah. I'm a firm believer in that we tend as people not to do nearly as much internal analysis or, or looking at ourselves daily, as we should we don't we just let things go on. We don't really look at things and going, Well, what worked today, what didn't work, and why didn't it work? And we've got to get away from this idea. And I know, that's not what you're saying, but of failure, you know, if you fail, did you really fail? Or is it it's the better way to view it a learning experience that helps you move forward. And we just don't do that we don't do enough self analysis of a lot of things that we do. Yeah. Matthew Burr 27:28And I look at that I look at any failure as an opportunity. Right mistakes, I call them opportunities. I say when my organizations when we're doing change management. Yeah, I mean, you know, we have a mess, but it's an opportunity to get things better and to get things put in place or improve. And it's the same thing with personal growth. It's like, Yeah, I mean, you made a mistake. You learn something, what did you learn? And how do you improve from it improved from and I think if you're looking at that, through through that lens, again, I mean, I think that, yes, you are going to continue to improve and get better throughout life. And it's just one of those things. We all have life lessons. And sometimes they're hard to learn. But at the same time it is there's always opportunity to do things differently to tweak, to modify, and to improve from any of those lessons, I completely agree with you, Michael, Michael Hingson 28:16one of the things that I've learned is to stop saying to myself, I'm my own worst critic, I listened to every speech that I give. And I do that because I want to see how I'm doing. And if I can't listen to myself and learn, then no one else is going to be able to help. And I've learned that rather than saying I'm my own worst critic, I really should say and do say I'm my own best teacher, because really, I'm going to be my best teacher and the only person who really deep down can teach me. Other people can impart information, but I need to be the one to be taught and learn being. So I've learned that one of the things that I need to view myself as doing when I am listening to speeches, and so on that I give is it's a learning experience. And that is because I'm my own best teacher, which I think is a whole lot more positive anyway. Matthew Burr 29:08Yeah, yeah. And I do a lot of self reflection, a lot of meditation, looking at different scenarios and say, Okay, how could have handled this, this? Pull the emotion out of most of the things I do now, I don't make decisions based on emotion. I mean, you know, those are things you've learned through life experience, and just continuing to look at ways to get better. And I think yeah, I mean, again, I like what you're saying about that and listening to your yourself speak. I can't say never listen to myself speak, I should probably start doing that. And that's a good piece of advice. So Michael Hingson 29:40I remember when I was program director at our campus radio station at UC Irvine. I wanted people to hear themselves because I wanted people to improve and some of the DJs were really not very good. There were a few who were but even so most could use improvement. Had I heard them, but they never heard themselves. And I asked them to record their own shows and they wouldn't. So we did it for them, essentially, without their knowledge. And all we needed to record was them talking, we didn't need to record the music. But at the end of every week, we gave them a cassette and said, You need to listen to this. Because you have to hear what you sound like, you're going to be able to figure that out. And you know, what, people really dramatically improved, who listened? Matthew Burr 30:27Yeah, working in the call center, I mean, with the quality assurance when when they say that the calls may be recorded, they actually do record those calls and will pull you into a room, and you'll listen to calls and they're going to dissect it and tell you where you need to get better. So we have very similar process. And I've been through that when I was a call center rep back in 2020 years ago, this point, so yeah, no, I Yeah, absolutely. And I can appreciate that whole dynamic, because that is how you get and again, I think you have to accept that's another thing except criticism, be open to feedback in order to evolve at that point. So sure, Michael Hingson 31:02it makes perfect sense to do that. So you just published your unbox the or HR, professional career. MIT just got published in July, right? Yeah, Matthew Burr 31:15yes, sir. We published it in July. I wrote it last November, we've kind of been tweaking it and putting the the finite details on it. And we just published it, I think it was like July 18, July 2011, we launched that book on Amazon. And so very happy about it, happy to have it was it's a third book I published which is fantastic. It really kind of dissects my, not only my journey through HR consulting, and building a consulting firm, but also kind of gives you a little bit of backstory on on why I do what I do, how I got involved in it, and, and just kind of looking for opportunities outside of just HR consulting, say it's kind of a well rounded book, I think, the feedback I've gotten from people, you know, as they've read it and want to get an HR consulting, there's things they never thought about. So there, you know, it's a great read, there's resources in there to kind of give you places to write things out and take notes and kind of put your own goals and objectives down and kind of what like action item type lists that are throughout the book. But yeah, no, it's great. I didn't think I'd ever get this third one out and was able to write it in three weeks. And then we published it in July. And I'm happy that the team got it out and work with me and kind of stuck through to the bitter end at this point. So Michael Hingson 32:29So what's the next one gonna be? No, yet? Matthew Burr 32:34Yeah, haven't even thought that far ahead. The first two are about student loan repayment. The third one was consulting, probably something about, you know, who knows, now do a bio on myself. I don't know. I mean, maybe the next one will be about some of the scenarios in HR craziness that I deal with. I mean, you get a little bit of that in the consulting book, but there's probably some some case study type of role playing events, and just different scenarios I can run through just from my own personal 20 year career, that would probably be a great training resource for people that want to get into HR. So Michael Hingson 33:09do you have a story you could tell about some of the craziness of HR? Or would that be giving something away? You don't want to do? Matthew Burr 33:15Yeah, you know, I mean, you know, a lot of it, you know, it's in, you probably could probably get on a roll and talk about certain things. I don't want to say you don't want to really do too much with the confidentiality, but no, I understand. And so, you know, in a lot of it, you know, again, it's opportunities to evolve processes, it's opportunity to watch organizations be successful, pinpoint weaknesses, and really kind of show the process of getting better. And, you know, in really, in my career Early on, I had the opportunity to work with some really strong consultants that came in, we had a $20 million loss company, we're able to turn around and work very closely with them, as the new HR professional had the opportunity to work in a bankrupt paper mill bait Paper Company at one point. So I've worked in very challenging and tough environments, I think they've prepared me for the challenges and opportunities that I deal with every day. Because I've seen some of it. I mean, not all of it, I say I learned something new probably every day in this field. But, you know, again, I think that it is change management is difficult, whether it's operations or HR or finance, there's always room for improvement, but you got to be real, I think you've got to have thick skin to get in there and kind of exploit weaknesses and really evolve organization does not easy. So Michael Hingson 34:34good point about having a thick skin. Definitely. More people need to have a little bit more of that. But I'm assuming you have had situations where you had a particular individual who was a problem in one way or another that you were able to turn around and help them become in as a result their company become more successful. Yeah, Matthew Burr 34:55no, I mean, I you know, I think one of the stories I wrote about endings IKEA director and a nonprofit and really when I started, you know, started with them I happened to be it was a an organization in New York, I happen to be down in Texas at the time, or really got into it. And I was in Texas for a month. And the place was really struggling. And, you know, I, you know, get up early in the morning and swim, I was thinking about how am I going to fix this thing every night. And, and, and again, I had a couple of scenarios. I mean, it was like, Okay, I coach, the executive director manage to put the individual to success, I terminate and replace, or I go in and run the facility myself until we replace. And again, when I came back to New York, I had a very, I think, a very direct conversation and just said, Look, you got to step up, or you got to go, I mean, and I and again, I had a conversation with the board of directors as board president as well, like, this isn't going to work, we're going to have to look at replacing at this point, if the person does not buy into this process. And really over the past, I would say 1218 months 100% turnaround person is in a much better place as a leader. And I mean, drastic improvement on an organization, I can say, that's probably one of my success stories that that comes up off the top of my head, you know, great retention of employees, and you still have turnover, obviously, you're gonna get completely different. And I, I gotta give the person all the credit for buying in and working with me, and really going through some challenges and again, really leveling up in their career and their, their professional life as well. So, Michael Hingson 36:35yeah, it does get to be a situation where sometimes things have to get really bad before somebody recognizes it, and improves. And I guess that's part of human nature that sometimes it just has to really go far downhill before it can start going back up. Yeah, Matthew Burr 36:53and I, when I when I talk to clients, first thing I say, when they bring me in, and look, a lot of times my client brought in at times to replace HR professionals or fix HR departments. And I said, Look, we're gonna have I call them wins and losses, right? We're going to have good days, and we're going to have bad days, and we're going to have good weeks, we're gonna have bad, we're gonna have bad months. I mean, so. So I mean, again, like, you're gonna have ups and downs, it's a kind of a roller coaster at this point. And so you've got to be prepared to take that punches and organization and just rebound from and recover. I mean, so those are things that I see all the time. And and how do we continue to, you know, to reinforce that, and I said that to a new client, if we're bringing a new HR person on, we recruited, we were able to fill the job very quickly, but I gotta look, we're still gonna have ups and downs, it's not fixed. It's it. There's things that have to get done, this person is going to come in and help me fix these things. But give it time the process. It didn't break overnight. It's not going to be fixed overnight, either. Michael Hingson 37:54So it's all about setting expectations, isn't it? Absolutely. Yes. Yeah. Well, you written two books about student loans. So that must be a subject near and dear to your heart. Do you want to would you tell us a little bit about all of that stuff? Yeah, Matthew Burr 38:09you know, again, having a number of degrees, I could talk about student loans for probably 1520 hours that people want. So really started out to get the journey started, you know, finished my bachelor's degree in 2007, private school in New York had about $15,000 in student loans, when I left, decided to go back and get a master's degree at the University of Illinois. So upon graduation in December of 2011, roughly had seven E's for $75,000 in student loans, and so the goal, you know, as of January 2012, I took a job in northern Michigan, the goal was to get it paid off in under two years, I mean, the 75,000, I think most people thought I was crazy, it was impossible to able to pay that debt off in 23 months. Fast forward to 2016 decided to go back and get an MBA at Syracuse University. finish that degree in December of 2017. Graduated with $117,000. in student loan debt, obviously, MBAs are super expensive from private schools. I paid that debt off in 33 months, and then I finished a third master's degree roughly 40,000, borrowed there, and I was able to pay that off about four months after I had finished that degree. So so really, you know, overall, both books, talk about my strategies, discipline and consistency is on making payments and just being as proactive as I can to reduce my debt. And I've continued that with more of my mortgage, continue that with car payments, but again, it's just looking at debt and how to reduce it as quickly as possible. And I know not everyone's in the same situation me you know, you could have health care costs, you could have kids. I mean, I get all that you live in a bigger city. I understand all that. I still think there's ways to To reduce costs and reduce debt astronomically, and again, student loans impact what 50 million people in this country, you're gonna have to deal with eventually. So what Michael Hingson 40:11are some of the things and suggestions that you might have for people as far as getting their student debt down and relieved? Matthew Burr 40:18Yeah, you know, and again, I think consolidation is always an option, you have to be careful that you don't want to spend money on a consolidation company, making sure the interest rates are as low as possible. It really comes down to me need versus one right in in life? And again, do you need it or just wanted? And again, I think you've got to look at that. Do you really need Netflix? Probably not. Do you need an iPhone every year? No, probably not. Do you need a brand new car? You're probably not right. I mean, so, you know, do you need Starbucks or dunkin donuts every day? Can you brew your own coffee and save yourself? 345 $6 a day, those things add up. And I've had people on Fox Business argue those things, but okay, well multiply a $6 cup of coffee by seven by 52. That's a bunch of money you can put towards your student loans right there. I mean, at all, I never thought of it like that. Well, I do. I mean, so again, it's like, you know, those are things that absolutely can impact long term. And the other thing I always tell people is always make more than a minimum payment. I don't care if it's $10, or $20, or $5. Keep that interest absolutely as low as possible from accruing and you're hitting principal, absolutely. Every time. I mean, and I've carried that over to my mortgage, to 30 year loan. And I, you know, again, with the mortgage, I think I paid roughly 65,000 off in two years, it was about a $220,000 mortgage on maybe 250. I don't remember exactly what it was. But I'm to the point now, where it's, the majority of the money is now on my payments, the big payment is going towards principal, I mean, so I've completely destroyed that interest model with my mortgage payment as well, because I've just taken it, and I make additional payments every month to offset the interest at that point. And so if you look at it like that, I think you're gonna look at it differently. The other thing I did with student loans originally, other really upset me actually is watch the interest accrue every week. And so when I was at my max, back in 2012, I think it was $100 a week accruing an interest and I mean, I'm like, the only people making money or banks in the government. Like that was it like I saw that I'm like, game over man, like, you know, I'm gonna make is I'm gonna pay this off as quick as I can. Because I didn't want other people making money off my money at that point. And so I've taken that competitive Stan with any debt I've gotten at that point. So Michael Hingson 42:47and it's, it's worked really well. So it's all about making more payments or making higher payments and not just certainly paying minimums. Yeah, reduce, Matthew Burr 42:56I mean, you know, look at your highest interest rate, knock it down, and you continue to do that. And I think again, people will get out of debt set goals, reward yourself, discipline yourself and be consistent and you absolutely will be successful with with debt, you know, debt reduction, and really anything in life as well, like I've talked about. So yeah, Michael Hingson 43:16we went through, we went through some periods of that and we had a fair amount of credit card debt just because of different things like buying wheelchairs for my wife, she was in a chair her whole life. So buying power chairs that she needed, that insurance didn't cover. And so we had some pretty hefty credit card bills. But she worked really hard at we both did, but she did most of the financial management, she worked really hard to make higher than minimum payments by far to the extent that she was able to pay everything completely down. So now the only credit card we have credit card debt we have is what we have in any given month. And I have she has passed away so it's now just me and the next step that I took was that every month the entire bill from the previous month is automatically paid so I've set it so that that will automatically happen so we don't have any credit card debt which I'm really happy about course the banks are always sending me nice, lovely invitations to open a new credit card or do other things with our credit cards and even our mortgage company wants us to take out an equity loan. Very nice and generous of them. Yeah, Matthew Burr 44:35I got an ad I got an ad like that the other day from you know from my mortgage company as well. I'm like, Oh, this must be the annuity I get I get it. Well, what I get now with my credit card companies is, you know, rollover a balance you get at 0% interest for 12 or 24. Yeah, so I see I get those I mean constantly an email and in the mail but yeah, I did see the home equity first time I've seen the whole manually email like that ever. I'm like, Okay, this is a new one I guess I'm gonna get so yeah, not I don't need it right, I try to pay for everything in cash obviously put as much towards retirement when I can. And just again, just keep costs as low as I possibly can and live a, I would say an economically, I don't want to say frugal, but just, you know, I guess a balanced life, the best way to put it so? Michael Hingson 45:24Well, yeah. And I know for, for me, we've worked. And when Karen was alive, we both worked really hard at it, but we work to, as I said, keep all the payments down and don't spend a lot of money that I need to, I do use the credit card for some expenses, again, but they get paid off at the end of the month, which is the big important part. It's just easier to use the credit card because I'm not going to write checks. And so using the credit card and the other part about it is there isn't an interest charge. There is a financial charge, they still get they get some money, but it is not what it would be otherwise if the credit card amounts the balance is increased a great deal. Matthew Burr 46:11Yep. Yeah, no, same thing. I use it I get the airline miles and do some traveling. So it works out well for me. Same Same Same exact thing with me with American Express. So yeah, absolutely. What I Michael Hingson 46:20love is listening to the flight attendants on airlines, we use American a lot, and they're always talking about get the new American Airlines, whatever. Credit card MasterCard or Visa card, and you'll get 70,000 bonus miles and all that what they don't tell you in all these lovely presentations is the interest rate on the card. Yeah. And, Matthew Burr 46:48like 25% Yeah, Michael Hingson 46:49I'm sitting there going, I would want to do that. Why now? I suppose the the argument could be made? Well, if you're paying it off every month, then you don't worry about that. But still, it's it's a lot of money. They they definitely get it from you Matthew Burr 47:06know, yeah, in one way or the other. I mean, and then you've got the annual fee stuff that they'll hammer you on certain cards, too. Yeah. And Michael Hingson 47:13the American Airlines cards are one of those where there's, after the first year, there's always a fee. So you know, it's good not to have to do that. Well, so you wrote two books on student loans. Why to? What did what did one not have that the second one needed to have? Yeah, Matthew Burr 47:28you know, I mean, the first one, the first one, how I paid off 74,024 months really focused on that first master's degree. And then I went back to school, I met the second one's really focused on the NBA the 117 and 33 months. And really, we kind of evolved the slaying the student loan dragon as a title for the second one, all three are on Amazon, you know, if anyone's interested, but, you know, it really goes into more detail more specifics about the process, I undertook to pay off that, you know, huge amount of money in really under in under three years. And I think it's a modified version of the first one. But it goes into much more specifics about the discipline about the process and about, I mean, and also some background on looking at student loans. You know, when you're, you know, high school students, so there is there is some information on there, what to look for the fine print, the interest rates, you know, it definitely covers a little bit more ground, I think, than the first one did. So, isn't this Michael Hingson 48:28all really about fiscal discipline discipline, though, and it can be tough, but isn't that what it's really about? You've got to be disciplined enough to do it. Yeah. 100% Matthew Burr 48:38Yeah. And I mean, it's discipline and consistency. I mean, every, every day or every week, I was making payments, I mean, so you know, again, it's it's that process of just being consistent and really kind of, again, managing your money so you're able to make those payments every week and not in keeping that interest rate down. I mean, that's absolutely what it comes down to is flexibility and discipline. Yes, we Michael Hingson 49:03have a car loan my wife had a wheelchair accessible van, we sold it back to the company that we bought it from, so that it would go to somebody else in a chair who could use it but I needed a vehicle that I could be driven around in rather than relying on other people. And so one of the things that we did with this new car loan is I make payments that are larger than then the payment that is due every month on it. So it's interesting to see them get to the to each month see that there's this extra like 75 or $100 on the on the loan. And I wonder sometimes if they really know what to do with that, or they must think I'm crazy. Matthew Burr 49:46Yeah, and it's funny you say that because the last vehicle I purchased us vehicle I think and when I turned mine and I had a $25,000 loan on the vehicle, you know and by I was able to pay that off in about six or seven months. And I was again, I calculated, I ended up paying about $193 In the interest and maybe 12 cents. So it was it was one of those things where I just continue to hit it, obviously, monthly payment, and then hit it with smaller payments throughout the month to reduce the accrual of interest at that point, it's the same thing I've done with my mortgage, if you hit it with smaller payments, it's not calculated much interest at the end of the day. So yeah. Michael Hingson 50:27And that's a really good piece of advice to make those additional small payments. Matthew Burr 50:33That's what they call the snowflake method when it comes to debt repayment. So Well, Michael Hingson 50:39you mentioned failing forward. What does that mean? Matthew Burr 50:43Yeah, I mean, basically, you know, I think it we came back to what we're talking about looking at, you know, looking at mistakes as opportunities, learning lessons, I think it's that emotional intelligence component of, you know, getting through kind of getting through the storm, recognize you made a mistake, recognizing that there, there was something that you might need to do differently and reevaluating. And I think learning from it and moving forward and being better growing from those experiences. That's exactly what failing forward is. And I think that if you take that approach, nobody's perfect. I think that there's always opportunity to evolve in anything we do, whether personally, professionally, financially, spiritually, health, wise, wellness, whatever it is, you know, a, again, looking at for those opportunities and becoming disciplined enough and consistent enough to learn from that. Michael Hingson 51:33It gets back to playing out now, self analysis, and being willing to look at yourself and what you're doing. And we, for some reason, that is just so hard for people to do, I think it's a behavior that we learned, and we've been taught. And we don't necessarily learn introspection nearly as much as we should. And it's such a valuable thing. And it doesn't take a lot of time on any given day to do it. Although if you meditate and spend more time on it, that's okay. But the whole idea is to really be introspective and think about what you're doing in the course of the day. And the more of it you do, the tougher and the more developed, if you will, the mental muscle becomes, which is I think, a very important thing. Yeah, Matthew Burr 52:19and again, and I related back to one of the things I related back to when I talked to leadership, and they're like, you know, these employees don't want to work. They you know, they're lazy, there's turnover and and and one thing I say to people is, have you looked in the mirror and and asked yourself what you're not doing. I mean, it's that exact component, not everyone is lazy. Most people want to come to work and do a good job and they want a fair day's wage and things like that. That's that psychological contract. But what are you not doing to disengage people or to engage? I mean, it's, it's, it's that simple, like, look in the mirror and say, What can I do better? As a leader? Where can I improve? That's going to help this this organization and asking some of those questions to employees? Where do you see what do I need to do? I mean, you know, again, it's look in the mirror, I guess what it comes down to is, you know, take a take a deep dive into yourself and say, What can I do to get better today? I mean, and really, that's what if you improve? One percentage day 200 365%, at the end of the year, that's, that's a hell of an improvement, in my opinion. So yeah, Michael Hingson 53:24by any by any standard, and it makes sense to do it. And we all want to try to improve and learn. I wish more would do it. We're, we're a country today. And and I know it's not just the US, but of course, this is where we are. So it's most visible. But we're in such a fractured world, and nobody wants to listen to anyone and nobody wants to do anything except criticize everyone else but themselves. Yeah, Matthew Burr 53:50no, I agree. And I think it's self accountability. I mean, and again, I've made mistakes and consulting. And I'll own that. I mean, I take ownership of everything in my life, I'll look at every situation, I'll own it. And, you know, and and recognize that, maybe, you know, maybe, I mean, and I do need to get better. I mean, and I'll tell people look, I need, you know, there are things that I still need to look to work on and reflect on. And I'll share that with people during training and say, I'm absolutely not perfect. There's things I'm continuing to work on myself. And it takes, you know, it's an emotional intelligence that it's that next level, look at life to recognize that and once you can get into that mindset of continuous evolution, I again, I think that society would be a whole lot better off I think the workplace would absolutely evolve and people would be much I think, much happier and in the things they're doing in life as well. So much more peace. So Michael Hingson 54:39so how do you overcome challenges? I mean, you face them. Needless to say, you sound like everything is perfect, but I know that you like any of us have challenges. Matthew Burr 54:47Yeah, I mean, again, I mean, I think that it's, you know, one thing I've done is it's like you're putting in places and you're put in storms to make you stronger, right? I mean, if you can't handle pressure you don't want Success. And so, you know, it's one of those things where I look at every situation it puts me under pressure and stress is a growth opportunity, and what can I learn from it? How can I be effective? And how can I make a difference? And so, no, I mean, you know, my life definitely is not perfect, you know, again, and there's always things to look at and do differently. And I think it's just one of those things that you do some self reflection, you do some meditation, you're thankful for what you have the blessings to you you've been given and just continuing to move forward. Take it one day at a time. Michael Hingson 55:32Yeah. Well, what do you think the biggest mistakes in life that people make are? That was grammatically not a very good sentence? But what do you think the biggest mistakes people have? Are Making human life? Matthew Burr 55:45I think they think you're listening to people's opinions. I think people get caught up in that drama, that gossip and kind of like, let them direct your life. It's your world, you shape it the way you want it. You know, I again, I think that they, they get caught up potentially, you know, it, that's a big component. My opinion is definitely listening to people and taking advice from people that maybe haven't walked in your shoes. I think they're not learning from mistakes, either. I think they continue to make the same mistakes. It's kind of the definition of insanity. Right? Doing the same thing over and over. So, you know, and again, I think that emotional intelligence a lot of times with is another component of of just not doing that self reflection and taking ownership. I think if more people took ownership of their own life and their own mistakes, their own responsibility, you'd see a world of difference. I mean, again, you have a failing business, you're not you can't blame the government. You can't blame Congress, you can't blame the president. What are you doing to make that business successful? I mean, why do you have turnover? I mean, and again, there are questions that you need to ask yourself as an individual as a leader. I mean, I'm relating it back to the workplace, but it works personally as well, in a bad relationship. What do you need to change at that point? I mean, those are all things, people have to take a deep dive and look at and see what things can be different. So yeah, I mean, accountability. And I think just not learning from mistakes and not growing when they need to grow. So. Michael Hingson 57:16So what advice would you give to people who are listening to this going forward? Matthew Burr 57:22You know, again, I think you've got to take risks in life that no risk, no story, you know, I think that there's always there's always pain and growth, I mean, you have to expect it, whenever you try something new whenever there's a challenge, you're going to feel pain, I mean, I'm just accustomed to pain at this point. And and it's just one of those things that it is what it is. And again, I think that if you start taking personal accountability and ownership of the path you're on the sky's the limit set challenging goals and and try to achieve those goals. And if you make mistakes and fail, fail forward, learn from it and move on and get better, I mean, just continue to look for those 1% improvements, you know, be thankful for what you've got and just focus on what you can control one day at a time. Michael Hingson 58:06And I don't think there's any better advice than anybody could take from this or any of the podcasts that we do I really appreciate you taking the time to be here with us and going through all of this and giving us some some good thoughts and good ideas on I know I'm taking away some some things from this I haven't made little payments during the month on loans but I by may do more of that with the car and that'll be kind of fun. So I'll have to look at that. Matthew Burr 58:34I get that definitely not that's always a good thing. Michael Hingson 58:37Yeah, well that's that's a logistics issue to to do too. But I will work on it and that'll be kind of fun. Well, I want to thank you again for being here. I really appreciate it. I hope that all of you listening out there enjoyed it. Matthew if people want to reach out to you since you do coaching consultant, among other things, and so on. How do they do that? Yeah, Matthew Burr 58:56Burr consulting. llc.com is the website you're able to put in a request from my website? Matthew m a t t h e w at Burr consulting llc.com? Is my Michael Hingson 59:06email and Burr is B u r r Matthew Burr 59:07are Yep, Burr B u r r correct. Yep. LinkedIn, Matthew W Burr, Twitter at Burr consulting. And then I have a Facebook page as well. So contact information is pretty easy to find and always happy to answer questions related to coaching or HR I was happy to support anyone so Michael Hingson 59:24super well. Thanks for being here with us. Thank you all for listening. I love to hear your thoughts about today's episode. Love to hear what you think about Matthew and and everything that we're doing. And of course, if there's anything you'd like to see me do differently or other guests that you'd like to see us have on. We always appreciate introductions and your support and your help with that. Wherever you're listening, please give us a five star rating we value that very highly and would really be very grateful if you would give us a five star rating. You can reach me easily enough at Michael m i c h a e l h i at accessibe A c c e s s i b e.com Or go to our podcast page, www dot Michael hingson h i n g s o n.com/podcast. And listen to our podcasts there and or wherever you want to listen to podcasts, or watch us on Youtube. But please give us those ratings. We appreciate it. And again, one last time, Matthew, I really appreciate your time and value, all the insights and information that you've given us today. So thank you very much. Matthew Burr 1:00:27Absolutely man, thank you for appreciate you having me on and always, always a pleasure to be on a podcast. So thank you as well thank you to your listeners. Michael Hingson 1:00:40You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com . AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

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I must say at the outset that my time with Glenn Gow on this episode was incredibly enjoyable and I hope you find it the same. I love to learn as I have said to you many times and today I learned a lot.

Glenn hails from Florida. He obtained colleges degrees in business and then spent much time in marketing and even some in sales. He worked with many large companies and especially with their CEOs.

A few years ago he decided to help C suite level people by becoming a CEO coach where he could impart the many of years of experience he gained in the technology world.

Glenn is absolutely a visionary in many ways. He and I talk a great deal about AI. I love Glenn’s observations as he explains that AI is a tool, not a threat. Listen in and hear his reasoning.

About the Guest:

Glenn Gow is a CEO Coach, a Keynote Speaker on AI, and a Board Member

The implications of AI for every single business are shocking. We’re all rethinking how we work, and how we can transform our offerings with the power of AI. It’s incredibly exciting, and a little terrifying on how to keep up.

Glenn Gow is a CEO Coach, a Keynote Speaker on AI, and a Board Member. Glenn understands exactly what we, as leaders, need to harness this technology. Glenn will be helping us understand the implications for business, and how to harness this technology. You will walk away with an arsenal of information.

Glenn is a sought-after speaker on AI and has spoken at The Wall Street Journal AI Conference, the National Association of Corporate Directors, MIT/Stanford Venture Lab, Harvard Business School, The Private Directors Association, Silicon Valley Directors Exchange, Financial Executives Networking Group, The Entrepreneur’s Organization, and the Northern California Venture Capital Association.

He writes an AI column for Forbes and has been published in Directors & Boards, Directorship (NACD), CIO Magazine, Inc. Magazine, and InfoWorld. As a CEO for 25 years, he advised numerous leading tech companies including Apple, Google, Facebook, Microsoft, and many more.

Speaker Reel: https://bit.ly/SpeakerGlenn

Ways to connect with Glenn:

LinksWebsite: https://www.glenngow.comLinkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/glenngow

About the Host:Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.

Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children’s Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association’s 2012 Hero Dog Awards.

https://michaelhingson.comhttps://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/https://twitter.com/mhingsonhttps://www.youtube.com/user/mhingsonhttps://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/

accessiBe Linkshttps://accessibe.com/https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBehttps://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/

https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/

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Transcription Notes

Michael Hingson 00:00Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us. Michael Hingson 01:21Well, hi there and welcome to another episode of unstoppable mindset. I am your host, Mike Hingson. And our guest today is Glenn Gow. And Glenn is a very knowledgeable soul regarding artificial intelligence. He is a board member he speaks on AI he is a coach. And I don't know what else and when he first joined this afternoon, I pulled an old joke that maybe a lot of you wouldn't know. We used to on television, watch commercials for Memorex tape, which was really good stuff. And when he came on, I said, the question we got to ask is, are we live? Or are we Memorex? Because that's a, a thing that Memorex did. And their point was, you couldn't tell the difference. I never bought that, though, because I could tell the difference. But the Max was pretty good, wasn't Glenn Gow 02:11it? It was, it was pretty good. Michael Hingson 02:14I actually still have some blank Memorex cassettes. So Oh, there you go. You're a collector. So Glenn, welcome to unstoppable mindset. We're really glad you're here. Really happy Glenn Gow 02:25to be here, Michael. And thank you for the introduction. And I'm looking forward to the conversation. Michael Hingson 02:30And also Glenn is a board member will have to find out about that along the way as well. And that's board is in being on a board not being board. But you know what? So tell us a little about the the early Glenn growing up and all that sort of stuff? Glenn Gow 02:45Well, I grew up in a wonderful family that supported learning, Michael. And so everything we did was about becoming a little bit better than the way we were, whether it was being happier in life or being more productive or making better friends. And we were always thinking about how can we just be a little bit better. And the wonderful thing about that, is that turns you into a learning machine on any topic. So whether I'm coaching my CEOs, or I'm studying AI, I'm very, very interested in learning and becoming better. And so it's something that I learned at a very early age and it's become part of who I am. Michael Hingson 03:31Did you grow up in California? I grew up in Florida and Florida. Okay. Laura Glenn Gow 03:39eventually went to business school at Harvard. And then came out to California. Ah, Michael Hingson 03:46yeah, as we were talking about earlier, can't beat the weather. No, no. I think the absolute best weather is San Diego but you know, California in general has great weather. Glenn Gow 04:01I feel very spoiled, spoiled where I am in Northern California right now. So I have no complaints. We Michael Hingson 04:06lived in Novato for several for 12 years and in an area called Bell marine keys which was a community that was developed in the early 1970s They wanted to make it look like Venice, Italy. So every house is on a lagoon or a channel in between lagoons and either they have docks or their dock ready and it was so nice to be there. That sounds really nice. Yeah, we're far enough away from like highway 101 that you could hear it if you really worked at it at night and it were quiet no wind, but mostly it was just a nice wonderful community and we loved it a lot. Fantastic. So you you grew up in Florida and all that and really devoted your your life to learning so you got a business degree and then where did you go from from Harvard and getting I assume about Bachelor's in business? Glenn Gow 05:02A master's in business? Okay, yeah. And then the most important part of my history was I worked for a startup immediately after business school, which quickly failed, happens. And then well, that's an important very important learning process. And then lucky enough to work at Oracle when it was a relatively small company. And I worked, I was the first person in the marketing function within sales. In other words, I was doing both sales and marketing. And that was an incredible experience, as the company grew from fairly small to a billion dollars in revenue, which is tiny by, by today's standards, yeah. And then I stepped out to start my own company, where we focused on helping technology companies on marketing strategy. And so we had the opportunity to work with Apple, to work with Facebook, and Google, and Microsoft, and Oracle, and IBM and every large technology company. I did that for 25 years as a CEO. Now, importantly, Michael, during that time, I had a coach for 17 years. This was my co coach. And I knew a lot about business. And my co coach, interestingly enough, didn't really know all that much about business. But she did know something that I didn't know, which was the mind of the CEO, and the mental game, and how to become an even better CEO. So I take all of that experience, having run a company, and having been coach for so long. And I use that every day now. So I was lucky enough to be recruited into venture capital, after I ran the marketing consultancy. And that's when I started coaching CEOs, the CEOs of our portfolio companies, and having been through a startup that had failed before I could truly empathize with the life of CEOs. And then I took all of that coaching and business knowledge. And I found that CEOs really got value out of our conversations. So much so that I fell in love with that. And I've been doing that full time now for three years. Because a lot Michael Hingson 07:28of them, although they were CEOs, got into it, for whatever reason, but weren't necessarily as knowledgeable as they needed to be about being a CEO. Glenn Gow 07:39Exactly right. And as long as Michael, as long as they have that mindset, this is how I described it, the mindset is that every great athlete has a coach, and some of them have many coaches. And you ask yourself, Why does someone who's at the top of their game, have a coach, it's because it coach helps them become even better. And if you have that mentality, as a CEO, you are going to improve every day, if you put your mind into that process of improvement, and that's what I'm here to do with my CEOs? Michael Hingson 08:14And do you still have a coach, Glenn Gow 08:18I do not currently have a coach, I am looking for a coach. I have advisors. But here's something that's interesting, that you made me think about Michael, is that I coached 20 CEOs. That's about as many as I want to coach. And I learned something from them every time I coach them. Mm hmm. And so I want to share those best practices with my other CEOs. So I feel like even though I don't have a coach working directly with me, not right now. I'm learning every day through my interactions with my CEOs. And I'm able to share that information with all of them on what best practices I just heard about. Michael Hingson 09:03Yeah. And I would think that the best CEOs are people who, at least in part, adopt a learning mindset, because if you think you know it all, you'll sometime and maybe sometime soon, discover it isn't really that way. Glenn Gow 09:20Let me give you a statistic that I discovered when I was in venture capital. roughly 60% of CEOs get fired within a five year period in the venture backed world, and you ask yourself, why did they get fired? The simple answer is they're not growing the company fast enough. But then you say, why is the CEO not growing the company fast enough? It's because they are not growing themselves fast enough. In other words, when they became the CEO and the venture capitalists put money into them, they were probably the perfect person for that company at that time at that size. But as the company negros takes on new employees, new customers, new investors, it requires that the CEO have new skill sets, and improve skill sets in order to succeed with this company that's transforming. I call it scaling the CEO. Right? And that's what I do. I help the CEO become even better. Michael Hingson 10:24And that's an important thing to occur if you're dealing with people who are supposed to be the leaders of companies and the people who are either the visionaries for the company, or somehow promote and create whatever is necessary to create the visioning for the company. Glenn Gow 10:46That's right. Exactly. Right. Yeah. Michael Hingson 10:49Yeah. And, you know, I, I have said several times on this podcast that if I'm not learning at least as much as anybody else, listening to this podcast on any given episode, that I'm not doing my job, well, and I have been so value in my mindset of being able to learn from everyone who's been on board, it's in who's come on as guests. It's great. It's a lot of fun. And I get to learn a lot. And I can't complain about that a bit. Well, it's Glenn Gow 11:18a win win win. Michael Hingson 11:19It is, as far as I'm concerned, and I enjoy doing it. It's, it's so much fun. Well, so you've you've been doing the coaching process for at least a few years, have you become certified as a coach? Or do you just do it or what? Glenn Gow 11:35I am not certified, nor am I ever going to get certified. I look at my 17 years of training from my personal coach. As as as the as the experience of learning through that I don't, I don't, gosh, I just feel lucky to have had that experience. And don't feel like there's any value. For me personally, writing certification isn't good. But for me personally, it just doesn't make any sense. Well, Michael Hingson 12:03and I agree, I've, I've thought about that. Some people have suggested that I should explore doing more in the coaching world. And one of the ways I think that I could add value in the coaching world today is that is we have an aging population and a younger population dealing with an aging population. We don't have any really substantive all around coaches dealing with blindness and low vision, who can guide people so it is it is something that I've been looking at and seriously thinking about happening. I think it would be a fun thing. And I think it would be a valuable thing if we can give good suggestions to people and help them deal with something that we shouldn't have to deal with. But we but we do in the shouldn't have to is that society rose up and learns that blindness is a big, severe, serious problem. And the reality is, it's not blindness, it's people's attitudes about blindness, because people who happen to be blind or low vision, can do the same things other people just we may not do it the same way. And we also tend to make our world because there are a whole lot more sighted people than blind people, we make our world side oriented. But that still doesn't mean that blindness is the problem. Glenn Gow 13:26That's right. That's right. And that made me think, Michael for a moment about AI and and the current some of the current interfaces with AI. And I think there's an incredible opportunity for people to interact with AI purely on a voice basis. Yeah. Michael Hingson 13:46Well, and that's true, although we type as well. But the the issue is really the, the having the input that AI gets from wherever it gets and guide it to provide good output and good ways to help. Exactly. Yeah, which is what AI is all about. What got you started in really thinking about and becoming more of a mentor and proponent of AI? Glenn Gow 14:18Well, first of all, I described myself this way, I'm a I'm an expert in AI at a niche, which is the sea level. So I'm an expert in talking about AI to to CEOs and the board. So I'm not going to talk about the technology. I'm gonna talk about the implications of the technology, right? Started, Michael was one of the great things about working in venture capital is that you can predict the future. You can predict the future because it's walking in the door every day in the guise of entrepreneurs who are telling you all the trends that are coming together and how they're going to take advantage of those trends. And when you see that 20th person walking In the door and talk to you about AI before it's being used anywhere, you can say I see something coming in our direction. And that's when I dove in. And that's when I said, I need to deeply understand the implications of what's happening here. And so I got very, very excited about it. Because, look, we all live through technology innovations. But AI is different from every other technology innovation. And the reason it's different is that it learns. And sometimes it learns all by itself. What does that mean? What does that mean is it means that it creates a flywheel effect. If it starts learning about your customers and your market and your products. And you feed it more data, it gets smarter all by itself. And that flywheel gets spinning and you progress, you gain market share, you gain revenue, you gain more insights. And if your competitors aren't doing that, they're using some other kind of technology. You're gonna leave them in the dust, they will not be able to catch up to you because of that flywheel because it's learning and getting better. Constantly. Michael Hingson 16:16Yeah, my first exposure to AI goes back to well, it's more learning, but it is still ai 1975 1976 with Dr. Ray Kurzweil, oh, well, and Ray's first development, his first invention was the Kurzweil Reading Machine for the blind. Well, first was Omni font, optical character recognition. And he chose as his first application to make a machine that would be able to scan any, and recognize any type or print or combination, I'm typing print fonts, but one of the things that Ray put into that machine was a learning feature. So the more that the machines scan, when I was reading a book, or anyone was reading a book, or anything that that was in print, the better the recognition was. And it did that all by itself. Amazing. And it was absolutely easy to see that happen over a few pages in a book. So I've been using and accepting the whole concept of machine learning, ever since that day, but of course, in the past several years, we've now seen AI go to incredibly whole new levels. And it's interesting, the the people who who are negative about it, and so on, I'm sitting here thinking, Alright, what, 30 years ago, or maybe 35, now we had the internet, or 30 years ago, we had the internet come along. And along with the internet, of course, there are the people who misuse it, and we have the dark web. And I think somebody should check out more of the dark web and see if it's accessible. And if not, we should sue some of those people. That'd be fun. But we have the dark web, and we don't get anywhere near although some people recognize the the problems with it. We don't get anywhere near the route from any of that, that we're getting from artificial intelligence today, which tells me people are starting to you know, they, they see the significance of it, but you know, we're dealing with a, with a world where people really aren't visiting it properly or visiting it enough? Glenn Gow 18:34Well, it's hard to predict what we're gonna see. And AI is just a tool, Michael, it didn't was that with any tool. It's going to be used for good and it could be used for bad. And so they're, they're bad people. And if they get hold of a tool, they're going to use that tool. And so we do need to be aware of that we do need to be concerned about that we need to ensure we have protections against that. Yep. Just like any tool. Yep. But the key thing is it's happening way faster than the experts ever predicted. And so what does that mean? That means that we as humans, need to move fast to keep up. Michael Hingson 19:17And we're dealing with, with a lot of change, and many people aren't used to changing or change happening that quickly. But it's the way it is. Glenn Gow 19:26Well, not only that, Michael, but most people don't like change. Michael Hingson 19:30No. Glenn Gow 19:33And if you don't like change, and change is happening and being part of the change requires you or enables you to be successful, then you're going to be left behind. So my favorite saying is AI is not going to take your job. A person who is using AI is going to take your job. Michael Hingson 19:53Yeah. And that's and that's something that makes perfect sense. And that's the way it will be but AI is ain't gonna do it. I don't see no matter how much AI learns, and can learn, there are things that people can do or have within them that are makeup that will allow them to continue to function and AI is not going to take over the world. It is not a Colossus The Forbin Project. Right? Right. And that was a good movie and a good book. But Glenn Gow 20:27the key is for us to ask ourselves, how do we get the most out of this tool. And so I want to share with you a story one of my CEOs shared with me Remember, I talked about sharing best practices from what I learned. So I'm a big proponent of AI, in that it holds tremendous value for companies of all kinds in all industries of all sizes. And so I'm encouraging my CEOs to do more in this area, so that they get a competitive advantage. One of my CEOs stood up at an all hands meeting in the company and said, I'm going to create an AI mandate, starting today. And for the next month, every single employee needs to use AI every day for a month. Now, I don't care what you do with AI, I don't care if what you do doesn't work. What I want is all of us to learn about AI. And so after a month, what I want each of you to do is report to your manager, what did you learn, because we're going to learn about the things that it doesn't do very well. We're going to learn about the things it does extraordinarily well. And then we're going to figure out how to leverage this tool so that we all can be more productive. I thought that was a brilliant way to introduce, because it's okay to fail is what the CEO was saying, and figure out your own experiments. And what came out of that was a whole slew of opportunities that no one imagined that AI could do. So the accounting department figured out, hey, I can write macros in my spreadsheet. Well, that's not what we knew when we when we began this experiment. And yet now we know we can do that. Michael Hingson 22:21And we can use it and speed up the process. Glenn Gow 22:25Exactly, exactly. And so many learnings, like that. And now this company is a highly innovative way of thinking about everything, and is going to do extremely well compared to their competitors, because they're embracing this amazing tool. Michael Hingson 22:40I've used chat GPT to help write some articles. Although I, I generate like five or six versions, and then I put them together, and then I add my own stuff to it. Because AI doesn't guess the saralee get everything well. But, of course, that's the case. But still, it has sped the process up so much. But it goes back to me giving it the right parameters to work with. Glenn Gow 23:11Exactly. And Michael give you a little tip. So when you think about interacting with a large language model, you want to you want to think about being in a dialogue with it. Not that you give it a prompt and hope for a good result. Right? You You work hard on the prompt, and it comes back with a result and it's okay to say that wasn't very good. Yeah, I think you missed a few major points. And you completely missed that I wanted this to have a perspective on the following. Yeah. It'll say, Gee, Michael, I'm sorry about that. I'm gonna go do another version of it. And so then we're just talking about writing a blog post here, let's say so let's, let's say it comes back with a one. That's it's pretty good now. All right, we'll say hey, that's pretty good. Now, what you can do is you can give it a prompt that lays out Michael Hanson's writing style. Michael likes to write in the following kind of prose, and he likes to use adjectives and active verbs, and he likes to use bullets, and he likes to use speak at a college level, and you can give it your style, so it'll take the output it created for you, and then it'll sound a lot more like Michael. Mm hmm. And then that's a good time to sit back and edit it, because you've already done a lot of the work through the prompting. Michael Hingson 24:39And it's all happened a lot faster than I would ever do it on my own. Absolutely. Glenn Gow 24:44Oh, I'll give you one more tip. So I created my style prompt. Right when I want to tell a large language model I want you to write like Glenn Gao. You know how I created this style prompt? Oh, I asked chit chat GPT Ready to do it for me? Here's all my writing. Now go evaluate my writing and tell me how you would describe my style. Michael Hingson 25:12How do you get bought on whether that's a good question for here, but I'll ask anyway, how do you show it your writing? There, there are aspects of, of the, of Chet GPT. And so on that I have to figure out how to do yet because it's not as accessible as it really could be. So I don't know how, Glenn Gow 25:32yeah, and so I won't, I won't spend a lot of time on it, because it's fairly complex. But you have to choose your best writing, you have to put it into a document and you probably are going to give it to a large language model that isn't Chachi btw that can read large documents, got it and then get the output from there. Okay, it's not easy to get there. But once you get there, now you have your style guideline. Michael Hingson 25:55And you can save that. Yeah, yeah. I presume you can save that and then tell it to use it again. When you next you Right, Glenn Gow 26:02exactly. Right. Yeah. So anyway, a little tips there. But that's just one small drop in this bucket of this amazing tool that is available to us. Michael Hingson 26:11Yeah. And it and it's only gonna get better. And it is so cool that it's there and does the things that it does. What is we're starting to hear more about this whole thing, this whole concept of generative AI, what does that? Glenn Gow 26:25Well, that's what we've been talking about generative AI, and that's where it generates. It fits within the world of large language models, and, and other models. And so let me back up a second and define it this way. So for almost seven years, we had what I'll call traditional AI. That still exists. And that's still actually even more important than generative AI, it's gonna have a bigger impact on the economy than generative AI. But generative AI is very, very new, we'll call it roughly two years old. And it creates content of various types. And I think the most impactful well, okay, the traditionally AI is much more about predicting outcomes, whereas generative actually creates outcomes for you. I think the greatest impact in the generative AI side is not going to be in language, it's not going to be in pictures, it's going to be in code, somewhere development code. And the reason I think the greatest impact is going to happen here is, Michael, if you get really good at writing articles, or blog posts, using a large language model, you might get, I don't know a few 1000 people to read what you've written. But if your team or if your team writes code, and it goes into a product, you might have millions of people. Now using something that was created using generative AI is going to be an enormous impact on the software development world, it's already starting. Michael Hingson 28:05And that makes sense. Well, and look, I think a lot of people don't know it. But the whole concept of AI was very actively used in developing as I understand that the mRNA vaccines for COVID. I believe that's true. I've heard I can't remember where I heard that. But I heard it from what I regard as a reliable source, as I recall. Glenn Gow 28:28No, it's very true, because that's more in the traditional AI realm. Yeah, where you feed the AI a lot of data and AI can see patterns in data that humans simply can't see. There's too much data, our brains aren't wired to see patterns in data. And AI can see patterns. And it could suggest particular experiments you might run based on the patterns it sees. Yeah, and that's one of the great things it's for. So in drug discovery, Michael, there's, there's a product. It's created by a division of Google called Deep Mind. And this product is called Alpha fold two. And what it does is something that I don't fully understand, because I'm not a scientist or a biologist. It does something called protein folding. So what is protein folding going to do for us? It's going to help cure diseases is what it's going to do. And this is a scientific problem that has existed for forever. Until within the last year or so. Google solved the problem using AI of protein folding. And what it does is it just opens up the ability for people, for scientists to develop new drugs and new protocols and new ways of looking at our DNA to cure diseases. And so we haven't we don't hear much about this yet, because we don't interact with something called Alpha. Fold two, we can't it's too complex. It's not an area we understand. But when it starts curing diseases, we're going to start paying attention to what's happening in the pharma world, in the healthcare world in the scientific world. Michael Hingson 30:14And, you know, the reality is, no matter what the downsides, in terms of bad actors who do things with AI, there are so many more people who will do good things with it. And it is still very well, and it probably always will be, but it's it is very much an evolutionary process. And we're new to the whole process. That's right. Glenn Gow 30:38That's right. And we have to think of it too. There are a lot of races happening here. Michael, I talked one about one race being the flywheel effect race, where I'm, I'm in on a business and I'm competing with other individual companies to be successful. So I need to take advantage of what AI can offer to me so that I can get into that flywheel improvement, continual improvement cycle and beat my competitors. That's one race we have. We have another race against at the at the at the national level, we have a race against China. China, has committed to becoming a world leader in AI. I don't know that we've actually stated that in the United States. And yet we are today the world leader in AI. And the question is, who is going to come out ahead? Yeah. So there's a race. And we have to, we have to be aware of that race and understand that race, there's a third race, which is against hackers. So one of the interesting things about the large language model world here is that we have tools like chat GPT, the most popular one and the most advanced one, which is called closed source software. But Mehta, the company formerly known as Facebook, Facebook, has released open source software models, when you release open source software, that means anybody in the world so North Korea can use it, around can use it, a hacker in their basement in New Jersey can use it to do things that we wish they weren't doing. And so given that this is the world we live in, if you're running a company, you need to ensure that the vendors you hire in the world of cybersecurity are on the cutting edge of AI and using the latest AI technologies to help prevent what the bad guys are trying to do with the latest AI technologies. Michael Hingson 32:47It's very much like anything in the in the hacking world, we need to make sure that we have bright people and people who are not only bright enough, but are forward looking enough to anticipate and figure out what the hackers might do to be able to make sure that we put safeguards into the system as best as we can, as best as we can. And when somebody isn't totally successful at that, because somebody on the other side comes out with something more clever. We learn from it, which is also part of the process. Exactly right. And then we use AI to figure out how to fix it. Glenn Gow 33:30We are definitely going to do more and more than agree with that. Michael Hingson 33:34Yeah. You know, it's it's always interesting and pertinent to ask questions like, what do we do about AI producing inaccurate information? But you know, I think that really ultimately comes from it depends on the information we give it, doesn't it? Well, let Glenn Gow 33:56me answer your question. slightly differently. Okay. So there is this thing, as you know, called hallucination where AI might give us the wrong answer. This happens, by the way, only in generative AI does not happen in traditional AI. Because we're not asking traditional AI to, to make anything up. In generative AI, we are actually asking it to make something up. We're asking it to write something or build something that hadn't existed before. And so it has a hallucination problem. So there are two ways around this. Well, I'll say three ways around this. There are certain things where we don't really care if AI makes something up. Let's say Spotify, is using AI to predict the next song that I want to hear. I don't care if Spotify makes a mistake, right? I just happen to hear a song that maybe isn't my favorite as a result. There's no risk factor here. But the minute I step into the world of making Have something that has some risk to it, we need a human in the loop. A human must be involved in making the ultimate decision about what we're going to publish or what code we're going to write or what we're going to what strategy we're going to take on. So you have a human in the loop, sometimes you have you human deeply in the loop. Because there's, there's there's a lot of potential danger associated with this. Like, should we fire a missile or something? Or we have a little bit of a human in the loop? Like, should I publish this blog post said, Shut up Tejas wrote the answers usually no, don't do that. But, but, and there's one other factor. So if you're using a large language model, and you're asking it to do some research, you ask it, or you tell it, you say, and I want you to point me to the source of the information. Now, this is important, because it'll make up sources. Sometimes Michael, it'll say, Oh, here's the source, ha, ha, ha, it's not really a source, it doesn't really say, this is the source of information, they just made it up or the LLM made it up. So instead, by taking a combination of having the human in the loop, and having the source, then the human can go to the source and validate. Yeah, that the large language module model actually did the research and came back with an answer for you that is valid. And now you can make a decision based on that. And Michael Hingson 36:30the other thing that, again, comes to mind is that hopefully, interacting with the LLM, and dealing with correcting sources and so on, it learns along the way, and over time, maybe you won't make as many mistakes. Glenn Gow 36:47I think that's true. It is happening now with the models because there is human feedback involved. So it's, it's getting better and better. But it may be the case that we never get to perfection here. Yeah. But you know what? Humans aren't perfect either. And so well, we just needed to get to be a little bit better than humans. Michael Hingson 37:11Yeah, no, we've got a, we've got to continue to grow. Glenn Gow 37:17Precisely, yeah. How Michael Hingson 37:19do we deal with the biases and all the negative things that people say about AI and things that are clearly not true? And very frankly, to me, some of it comes from the political side of things, because people promote fear way too much. But how do we deal with that? Well, Glenn Gow 37:42so I heard the word bias in your question, and I have I have an answer, maybe about that. But tell me what can you give me an example of what you're you're asking about so I can be more precise? Michael Hingson 37:51Oh, I'm just thinking of we, we hear so many people saying how bad AI is and we should really not only have better governor's on him, we shouldn't allow it. Kids use it to cheat. It's bad. We shouldn't have it. Well, and it comes from? Yeah, some kids do. There's a challenge there. But anyway, go ahead. Glenn Gow 38:16Well, let's just use that example, Mike. Okay. So it has to do with being creative about how do you manage change. So I'm going to use an example of a Wharton professor, his name is Ethan Moloch. He's a wonderful person to follow if you want to look him up. He's a leader in thinking about AI and how it applies both in the academic world and the business world. So he, like I said, he teaches a business course at Wharton. And so one day he gets up in front of the class. And he says, Okay, we're all going to write a paper. I don't know what the paper was about. Not important. No, I'm going to ask all of you to write a paper. And I'm going to insist that all of you use chat GPT. And the class is like standing up and clapping and like, oh my god, this is amazing. Because what used to take me four hours is gonna take me 30 minutes now. But he wasn't done. Yeah. And I'm going to ask you to defend every line in the paper. Yep. And so they are suddenly realized that they needed to understand what this tool was telling them and they needed to believe it and validate it. So they are actually learning more than they would learn without ChaCha btw because it's providing all this information that they need to go it's almost like they're it's pointing to here are the important things you need to go learn. It's not about writing the paper. It's about the learning. Yeah. And I thought that was incredibly brilliant to embrace AI so that his students become better at what he said. asking them to do it, which is to think about business problems in a certain way. Yeah, Michael Hingson 40:04well, and I, the first time I was talking with someone about chat GPT, and they were talking about how kids cheat, and so on. And cheese, well, with some people true. And some people, it's probably too strong a term, but how kids are using it and not doing it on their own. I immediately said, This is an incredible teaching opportunity. What the teachers need to start to do is to not fear, the artificial intelligence, but rather uses as an opportunity to say to the students, okay, and the way we're going to grade your papers is that you're going to have to defend it. And you're going to have to tell me, what is in the paper? And why you say what you say? Yeah. And I think that makes perfect sense. It's in and I don't know whether that's more work for teachers, it can be time consuming. But it's an opportunity to really change a lot of our teaching models, which is great. Glenn Gow 41:06Exactly. Right. Exactly. Right. And if teachers are smart, they should use AI to help them build their curriculum, and build what it is they're going to teach and how they're going to teach it. Because AI is a fantastic tool for that. And Michael Hingson 41:23if school administrators were smart, they would encourage it. That's right. Which is another story entirely. By but you know, it's a process. But I but I really think that it offers so much of an incredible opportunity to vastly improve teaching that, how can you argue with that? But Glenn Gow 41:46well, let's, let's take what you just said, Michael Fullan. And apply that statement vastly improved teaching to the work world? Yeah. So if I'm running a company, I have people who know some things and people who don't know some things in my company. And I want everyone to know as much as they possibly can, so they can make better decisions. AI is one of the mechanisms to help me get there very quickly. So when one of my favorite phrases, is the head of HR is talking to the CEO, and the head of HR says, gosh, you know, I don't know if we should train all these people. What if we train them and they leave the company? And the CEO says, What if we don't train them, and they stay at the company? So this is a tool for training for teaching for learning for every employee. And every CEO is going to benefit if he if that CEO can get the employees learning by using this incredible tool. Yeah. Michael Hingson 43:02Isn't that cool? Yeah, very cool. And it makes perfect sense. Well, you know, so again, in general, I asked the question before about bias. But is the bias really against AI? Or is it against change? Glenn Gow 43:22It's a bit of a complicated question. So yeah. So think of it this way. If you build a large language model, and there are only a small number of companies in the world who can build large language models, because it's very, very, very expensive to do. So. What you do if you're open AI, let's say or your anthropic is another company. X is another company, pi is another company, or if you're going to build a large language model, you do something, which is you put guard rails on that. Because you don't want bias inside of those guardrails. And yeah, when you lay down the guardrails, the human who's laying down the guardrails has some bias, Michael, why because they're human. So you might have one large language model that leans a little bit to the left and another one that leans a little bit to the right, and that's based on the people who designed it. And so you could argue that every large language model has some bias built into it purely because humans built in. Hmm. And then you get to choose though, which largely language model do you want to work with whether it's chat CBT, or Claude from anthropic or many others. Michael Hingson 44:44But a lot of the bias at least that I'm that I'm thinking of, and a lot of people probably think of when they hear this discussion is people are just prejudiced against the whole concept of AI. And I think that yeah, Glenn Gow 44:56I don't I don't hear that very much. Okay. hear people hungry, I hear people who are hungry to learn more. That's great. So maybe you're hearing by us that I don't hear well, I, you know, Michael Hingson 45:10probably from different sources. And I've watched enough TV to to observe things, and I've heard negative things. But I'm not hearing nearly as much fear about AI, as I did a year ago. Glenn Gow 45:25Oh, interesting. Michael Hingson 45:28And maybe it's just people aren't talking about it. But you know, go ahead. Well, maybe people are Glenn Gow 45:34beginning to understand it better. That's usually why you might see reduction in fears people begin to understand that. This is why humans are not good at change. Typically, they fear the future, they fear, they're not going to fit into the future. They fear that I can understand that future. But once you start to step into the future, you realize, oh, no, it wasn't as bad as I thought it was going to be. Maybe it's even good. Yeah. And so that's probably why you're seeing that reduction in fear. Michael Hingson 46:03We as a society, and as a race, tend to fear a lot more than we ought to. Because we've we decided that we're afraid of one thing or another. And most of the things that we're afraid of never really happen anyway. Glenn Gow 46:20Exactly. So that's a skill all unto itself. Yes. Why am I focused on something that hasn't happened? isn't likely to happen. And I probably be okay. If it did happen, I'm probably going to be fine. And yet we do tend, we can tend to go there. It's your training of the mind, Michael, this comes back to I'm glad you brought it up. This comes back to one of the concepts I have, in my my coaching of CEOs is, how do you look at the world? Do you look at the world from a fear perspective? Or do you look at the world from an opportunity perspective, we can look at the exact same thing. And come up with a different outcome or a different way of thinking about I'll give you a funny example. A funny example. A shoe company sends a shoe salesman to a country in the desert, to go sell shoes. And the shoe salesman shows up. And he immediately emails back to headquarters and says I'm never going to be successful here. No one wear shoes here. And so he has a failure mindset. So they bring it back. They send another salesman to the exact same location, immediately sends an email back to headquarters and says, Send me ship fulls of shoes. No one wear shoes here. Yeah. And about how are we choosing to perceive what's in front of us? Yeah. Michael Hingson 48:06I, for a while ever since escaping from the World Trade Center, I've been talking about escaping and what I what I did, how I prepared for it. But never thought about the fact that with all the things that I learned about emergency preparedness, talking to fire people learning how to travel around the complex, not by reading science, of course, but by truly learning it. It created a mindset that said, You know what to do in an emergency, although at the time, I didn't think about it, but much later, I realized it. And I went oh, that is that's a good point. And then during the pandemic, I realized that while I've talked about not being afraid, I've not ever taught anyone how they can learn to control fear. And it's not to not be afraid, but rather to use fear as a powerful tool to help you. And so we've now written a book, it's called Live like a guide dogs stories from a blind man and his dogs about overcoming adversity, being brave, and walking in faith. And it's all about using information that I've observed and learned from a guy dogs and my wife service dog about different aspects of fear and learning to control fear and making it an add a positive attribute to have not an adversary. Well, Glenn Gow 49:32Michael, that sounds amazing is your How long is your book been out? Michael Hingson 49:35It isn't. This one is going to come out later in the year. I'll send you an email there. Oh, already been a couple of announcements about it. And it's available for pre order. So I will I will make sure that we put that also in the show notes again, but it's not out yet. But it's coming it'll be fun. I'd love to get your thoughts on it. And maybe when we start looking for people to review it I'll have to see if you'll look at it and Give us a review. Glenn Gow 50:00Fantastic. I'd love to be part of that. Michael Hingson 50:02So when we talk about AI, and just all the things that are going on, of course, some people talk about job loss or afraid of job loss, what do you think about that? Glenn Gow 50:13So I'm going to answer your question in a second. And I just want to suggest maybe this will be our last topic. Is that okay? Michael Hingson 50:22Only if it's an AI solution? Yeah, well, yeah. Well, so in resist, Glenn Gow 50:30look, job loss is a real thing. But I want to really frame how we think about this issue. So I want us to think about our jobs as being made up of tasks. Some people have lots and lots and lots of tasks. And some people have a smaller number of tasks that make up their job. AI is going to replace tasks. So if I have 100 tasks that I do every day, and AI can replace 30 of them, I'm going to be pretty happy about that. Because I'm going to be a lot more productive, and I can focus on the ones that I'm best at, and I'm gonna let ai do the things, it's best that but if my job is made up of a tiny number of tasks, let's say, I'm a long haul truck driver. And my task is to get the truck into the into the right lane and go for the next 1000 miles. My job's in danger, because the bulk of my work is associated with a small number of tasks that AI can take on. And so we want to ask ourselves, what what is our day look like? And how many things can be taken over by AI? And how can we embrace them. So there will, there will be three things that happen, there will be new jobs created by AI, the bulk of people will be impacted in a positive way, where they will use AI to be more effective, more efficient in their day, and they'll be able to get more done in a shorter period of time. And then there are some jobs that are going to go away, they're going to disappear. Because of this nature of they're made up of a small number of tasks. Yeah. And so you're running a company, you want to ask yourself, what do we do with that information? Do I think about the employees that I might not need in the future? Do I help them get training right now on this so that they recognize that their job may go away, Michael Hingson 52:26or you find other things for them to do or find other things Glenn Gow 52:29for them to do exactly. But in all cases, the market will cert will determine whether or not these jobs stick around or not, yeah, they'll be individual decision makers. Because if you're a competitor suddenly eliminates a bunch of jobs. Let's I'll use an example. Let's say you run a warehouse, and you have 100 people in your warehouse. And your competitor says, I only need 10 People in my warehouse, and I need 90 robots in my warehouse. And that's going to be cheaper and more efficient. Well, I can't be that employee that are an employer that says I'm going to keep all my employees paid, I'm gonna have to understand the nature of how jobs are going to change. And I need to act quickly. This is why we want to embrace AI as quickly as possible to make those decisions. Well, Michael Hingson 53:21so So two things, one, going back to the truck driver, okay, so AI can take over the actual driving of the truck, at some point, to the point where we don't have to fear that. That doesn't mean we can't find other things for that truck driver to do while he is in the truck. And the truck is being driven by AI. So that Glenn Gow 53:45is true. That is absolutely true. And so let us use this as our last example, a perfect example would be that that truck drivers overseeing six trucks, right? All at once happens to be sitting in one. But one of those six trucks gets stuck somewhere because you have a flat tire. And it needs a human intervention. But the human in the truck can tell it. Hey, that truck over there was five miles away, pull over and wait for a tow truck to come and get you. Yeah, yeah. Well, Michael Hingson 54:18very, very quickly. One last thing. I worked with a company called access to be I don't know if you're familiar with accessibility and what it does to help make the internet more accessible. No, please. So accessibility is a product that began several years ago when three guys in Israel developed sought wealth. They first had an internet company that made websites and then in 2017, Israel came along and said God and make all websites accessible. They had so many that they had to figure out a way to do that. And they used AI and they created a widget that sits in the cloud. And the widget can analyze any website of any subscriber. And when it analyzes, it creates what's called an overlay and creates all The code that it feels that it can put in to the site to make it accessible, and it doesn't reprogram the website. But when I go to a site that subscribes to access a B, I hear a message that says, Put your browser in a screen reader mode and I push the button, the widget up in the cloud transmits all the Accessibility Code down to my browser, which has already got the rest of the website, my browser doesn't care where the information comes from, right, as long as it's there. Now, it's not perfect, it doesn't do graphics, it doesn't do necessarily the most sophisticated tables and all bar charts. It doesn't describe all pictures. But it does a lot to make websites a lot more usable. And they have other profiles for other kinds of disabilities. But there's a cadre of people who just are so totally against it, hey, I could never do this overlays will never work. And I'm and they're vehement. And, you know, I continuously think of when I in 1985, started a company because I couldn't get a job to sell products, I started a company selling some of the early PC based CAD systems. And I had an I had architects who came in and they said, Well, we like your product, it's great. But if we use it, since we charge for our time, we can't make nearly the money that we otherwise would have. And I said, you're looking at it the wrong way. You don't deal with it in terms of how much your time is charged. Now, you look at it in terms of your expertise, and you're charging for your expertise. You don't change your prices, you get more customers. And you can do so much more with each customer by using a PC based CAD system and bring the architect or bring the client in and do walkthroughs and fly throughs and other stuff. But it's the same thing. And now CAD is commonplace. The reality is the overlay does so much and accessory is so creative at what it does. And they've also brought in additional services to do the things that the widget can't do. But it's amazing to see some people who were so vehemently against AI and overlays. When in reality, every website designer should include it. Because at least it'll do some of the heavy lifting and in what may not do everything, but it will do a lot and save them time and they don't have to change what they charge. Glenn Gow 57:20That's great. Sounds like you're a good salesman. Michael Hingson 57:23Well, we'll we'll keep going with it. It's it's a lot of fun. Well, I really want to thank you for being here. If people want to reach out to you. How do they do Glenn Gow 57:30that? It's very simple, Michael, Michael Hingson 57:32there you go. They can just go to AI and say find. Yeah, go ahead. 57:37Well, my website is My name is Glenn Gow .com. So Glen with two Ns, G L, E, N, N G. O W.com. That's Michael Hingson 57:47easy. Well, I hope people will reach out. And this has been a lot of fun. And I want to 57:53one thing I forgot to mention, absolutely. Okay. On my website, I have a tool that's free to use. It's available 24/7 You don't even need to fill out a form to use it. It's called AI CEO coach. So if you're a CEO, you can go to my website, Glen Gow.com and use this tool as often as you want absolutely for free. And ask it questions that a CEO would ask and see if you like the answers, and please give me some feedback on it. People love it so far. Cool. Michael Hingson 58:32Okay. And it's called again, AI 58:35CEO, Coach coach. Michael Hingson 58:37Cool. Well, people go reach out and check it out and reach out to Glenn. I want to thank you again for being here. And I want to thank you all for listening. Love to hear your thoughts. Email me at Michaelhi m i c h a el h i at accessiBe A c c e s s i b e.com. Or go to our podcast page www dot Michael hingson.com/podcast. And that's m i c h a e l h i n g s o n.com/podcast. Love to hear your thoughts and please give us a five star rating wherever you are listening to our podcast or watching our podcast today. We value your insights and Glenn for you and you listening. If you know of anyone else who want to be a guest on unstoppable mindset. Please introduce us always looking for more people to come on and be a part of unstoppable mindset. So again, Glenn, I want to thank you for being here and really appreciate your time today. My Glenn Gow 59:29pleasure, Michael, it was a pleasure. I really enjoyed that. Michael Hingson 59:36You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com . AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

View Details

Our guest this time is Danielle Cobo. Danielle began her first entrepreneurial endeavor at the age of seven years of age and never really looked back. Born and raised in Orange County California, Danielle attended college obtaining a BA degree in communication with a minor in psychology.

After college she began a career in sales where she proved highly successful. Along the way she managed a low performing team she turned into a highly successful one which earned her the title of “Regional Manager of the Year”. She also has won four Sales Excellence awards. Danielle knows how to work and excel even in highly stressful situations.

In 2020 Danielle made the decision to leave her corporate career as she felt it was best for her life as well as the lives of her husband and twin boys. She will tell us about that and discuss her values of how she feels she, and probably in fact many of us, aught to better make use of our time. As you will hear, she has strong family and personal values.

At the beginning of 2021 Danielle began to write posts on LinkedIn that soon lead her into a teaching and counselling career she promotes today. She is a coach and a highly knowledgeable leadership and team expert. Danielle is also the author of a book as well as a podcast, Unstoppable Grit. Be sure to check out her podcast and I hope you will purchase her book. It was just released and, even before its release, it has become an Amazon bestseller.

The business acumen Danielle projects is well worth your time to explore in this episode. I hope you like what Danielle has to say.

About the Guest:

Danielle Cobo a former Fortune 500 Senior Sales Manager, is renowned for empowering individuals with the grit, resilience, and courage to thrive professionally and personally.

With over 15 years of corporate experience, she knows how to build high-performing teams that increase sales, productivity, and employee retention. She propelled her team to the number one national ranking, even amid the upheaval of downsizing, restructuring, and acquisitions. Her commendable leadership earned her Region Manager of the Year. Her resiliency motivated her to earn four consecutive national Sales Excellence Awards.

Danielle is the best-selling author of Unstoppable Grit and hosts the globally top-rated podcast, Unstoppable Grit Podcast with Danielle Cobo.

When her husband, a Blackhawk pilot in the Army, was deployed in Iraq for a year, Danielle learned to balance a demanding job while keeping up with her dynamic duo of thrill seeking 1.5-year-old twin boys.

From a 7-year-old entrepreneur to a two-time 3-day 60-mile walker—she defines relentless ambition.

Danielle has a bachelor’s in communication with a minor in psychology from the California State University of Fullerton, Certification in Inclusive and Ethical Leadership from the University of South Florida Muma College of Business, and accreditation in DiSC Human Behavior from Personality Insights. Inc., and Leadership from Boston Breakthrough Academy.

Ways to connect with Danielle:

Unstoppable Grit Book: https://amzn.to/3tqhr4t

Connect with Danielle Cobo https://linktr.ee/DanielleCobo

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/daniellecobo/

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/thedaniellecobo/?hl=en

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/TheDanielleCobo/

Twitter: https://twitter.com/DanielleCobo

Website: www.DanielleCobo.com

TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@daniellecobo

Unstoppable Grit YouTube: https://youtube.com/@UnstoppableGritPodcast?si=EeZHgq4cyZ3PbT9Q

Unstoppable Grit Podcast with Danielle Cobo on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/0ROM7ru95TF06XzKhTcO5V?si=M1eyb3ZvS8C_sjlz2EGbGg

Unstoppable Grit Podcast with Danielle Cobo on Apple Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/unstoppable-grit-podcast-with-danielle-cobo/id1571797640

About the Host:Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.

Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children’s Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association’s 2012 Hero Dog Awards.

https://michaelhingson.comhttps://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/https://twitter.com/mhingsonhttps://www.youtube.com/user/mhingsonhttps://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/

accessiBe Linkshttps://accessibe.com/https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBehttps://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/

https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/

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Transcription Notes:

Michael Hingson 00:00Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us. Michael Hingson 01:21Well, Hi, and welcome to unstoppable mindset from wherever you may be. I am your host, Mike Hingson. Our guest today is Danielle Cobo, who has been a very top ranked sales professional has won a number of awards. Now she helps people transform lives in a lot of different ways. And I think we're going to learn all about that. I don't want to give it away. So Danielle, welcome to unstoppable mindset. We're really glad you're here. Danielle Cobo 01:48Well, thank you for having me on the podcast. I'm excited to be here. You Michael Hingson 01:52have your own podcast. Danielle Cobo 01:53I do very similar to unstoppable grit podcast with Danielle KOBO. Michael Hingson 01:58Well, we're not sure I have to come on that someday. 02:01Yes. Michael Hingson 02:02Well, that would be fun. Well, now that I've done my invitation to be on your podcast anyway, so let's go ahead and and move on. Why don't we start if you would, by you telling us a little bit about the early Danielle growing up and all that sort of thing? Oh, Danielle Cobo 02:16well, I grew up. I currently live in Tampa, Florida. But I grew up near you in Orange County, California. So I grew up in the beautiful area of Dana Point right near the beach, which is absolutely beautiful. But my childhood was quite unique in the sense of I was, like many people that was raised by a single mother. However, my upbringing kind of really shaped me into who I am today. So when I was two years old, my mom actually kidnapped me from my father. And I didn't know I didn't eventually really meet my father again until I was 15 years old. So in a lot of ways, my upbringing has helped me develop grit, because I saw this role model of my mom, who was a single mom going back to school who climbed the corporate ladder, working in a fortune 500 pharmaceutical company and being a manager in the early 1990s. And I saw her determination and motivation and her grit and tenacity. And she became such a role model to me to show me what is possible. But in a lot of ways, I also eventually found out that she took me from my father, and it didn't create a lot of resentment. So in anger inside as well. So I would say my upbringing, there was a lot of good aspects, there was a lot of negative aspects of it. But ultimately, it did shape me into who I am today. And it's a part of my story and a part of my life and who I am. Michael Hingson 03:53Well, I don't know whether it's relevant, but how come she could death you? That Danielle Cobo 03:57is the question of the hour, I would love to know that reason. Fortunately, unfortunately, for the, my mom passed away March 8 of 2020, and we had a 13 year estranged relationship, and I ended up losing my mom to suicide. So it's always going to be a question that I will always wonder and eventually, I hope that I get to have that conversation with her one day in heaven. But until then, I am just going to kind of assume that it may have been related to her own mental health and maybe some disagreements with my father. Gratefully, I do have a really good relationship with my dad now and he's remarried and have a stepmom and they're amazing support system for me. So Michael Hingson 04:46enjoy that relationship. He and He offers no insights into all of that. Danielle Cobo 04:51You know, I believe that the pain of him, the pain of me being taken from him is so deep rooted inside that I believe it's hard for him even to have the conversation. I think there's a lot of guilt associated with it as much as I've tried to reassure him that it's just a part of who I am. But he's not very open about it. Most of the information I've kind of heard is through other family members. The only thing that I do know is that one day he showed up at my house, and I was gone, the whole house was empty. And my mom had moved us to another area about an hour and a half away. My earliest childhood memories, though, my my one childhood memory that I have was when I was two years old, and my dad came to pick me up. And I just remember wanting to go to this baseball game with him. And I remember trying to reach for him, but my mom was holding me back. And so I was crying. And I was, I had my arms wrapped around the trunk of her leg. And I was falling this two year old little girl. And she wouldn't let me see him. I never understood the reason why. And so I'm sure that that played a part in whatever was taking place at that time, but I don't know the answer to it. Michael Hingson 06:15Yeah, people do things, and not a lot you can do about it at this point now, except move forward. And at least you have a good relationship with your dad and his she said, Someday you'll get to talk to your mom about it. And hopefully that will be a better relationship now. But you know, it got so you, you went to school and all that and you went to college? And what did you get a degree in? Danielle Cobo 06:42I got a degree in marketing and average communications, a bachelor's degree in communications with an emphasis in advertising and a minor in psychology. So I actually changed my major, probably five different times in college because I was very ambitious and wanted to study a bunch of different subjects, but eventually ended up with a communications degree. Why Michael Hingson 07:05works, that's okay. And why communication. So I Danielle Cobo 07:10always knew that I wanted to be in sales, like I had mentioned, my mom was such a role model for me. And I saw her rise through this corporate ladder and the success that she had, and I had such a passion for sales. My first business that I started with when I was seven years old, and I would go with my mom and my stepdad and go cut down mistletoe down from the trees, near Saddleback Church in California, we'd cut the mistletoe down, and I would stand outside the grocery store. And I would sell bundles, and mistletoe. And that's how I would afford the finances to be able to provide gifts for my family members. So I always had that kind of entrepreneurial sales spirit deep inside me. And I loved medicine, and I loved psychology. And so I pursued medical sales. Michael Hingson 07:58Cool. So you, again, sort of followed in your mom's footsteps by going into medical sales and pharmaceuticals and all that? Absolutely. Danielle Cobo 08:07Shoot her career was in pharmaceutical sales. Yeah. And my career was in medical equipment and medical device related. Very related. Yep. Same same industry, but different approaches to business. Yeah. Michael Hingson 08:21But at the same time sales is, is sales. And the trick is to learn and adapt and figure out how best to be successful at it and whatever you choose to do. Absolutely. So did you start out right after college going into sales, or did you do other things first? Danielle Cobo 08:42Yeah, so I actually started working full time when I was 16 years old. So I started in retail sales. Then I worked in the restaurant industry and hospitality industry. And then I had a fun stunt doing the working in the mortgage industry doing home loans before getting my foot in the door for outside sales, which I started in copier sales, which carpet copier sales is very difficult. Yes, a lot of cold calling a lot of door to door knocking was not my favorite. I only did it for six months before the doors opened up for me to transition into dental sales. And that's where I spent five and a half years before transitioning into medical esthetics. Yeah, the Michael Hingson 09:26the copier industry is is a fascinating one. And I don't know what it looks like today. But of course, back years ago was Xerox versus IBM, and then some other people got into it and so on, but that it was a fascinating world. And I guess he got into it. So several people got into it. But yeah, it was definitely an interesting and very commodity ish sort of sale, even though sometimes the machines were extremely expensive. It seems that way from looking at it from the outside, I worked with a company that's was the developer of Omni font optical character recognition, technology. And then eventually Xerox bought the company. And what they wanted was the technology and not the people, which was unfortunate. I've never been a fan of companies that do that, because they lose so much tribal knowledge, if you will, but companies still do it. So, you, you deal with it, and you go on? Well, so, so that makes it kind of fun. Well, so you've been in a number of different kinds of sales, I'm assuming that medical equipment sales is what you liked the best. Danielle Cobo 10:42I really enjoyed my role, my most recent role, where I was a senior sales manager in the medical and aesthetic industry. So I did do majority of my career, the first half of my career was in capital equipment, sales and dental and medical esthetics. And then I transitioned into the medical esthetics, where I was leading a team for Fortune 500 company throughout the southeast. And I would say that that was probably my favorite role. And the reason being is because the sales approach was very different than other roles that you might find in medical sales. We were helping medical practices in the aesthetic industry, build their business. So we were looking at ways that they could, we would teach them how to market their practice, we would teach them how to recruit new patients, how to retain their patients, how to get one patients from doing one service to another service. And I really believe the principles and the foundations that I learned has helped me in owning my own business, because I used to teach businesses how to be successful. So I really believe that that helped me have the principles and the strategies and tactics when I decided to go out on my own. Michael Hingson 11:54Did you always think of yourself, even when you were selling as kind of a teacher, Danielle Cobo 11:59I've always thoroughly enjoyed mentoring. And being able to see something unique in somebody and seeing it flourish, pouring into them and seeing them flourish and grow, whether it was working with a business or whether it was working with an individual when I was a manager. So I always feel like mentoring and teaching has always been something that I've enjoyed. Yeah. Michael Hingson 12:22And I think personally, the best salespeople are really mentors and teachers, I mean, you can try to force people to buy stuff, but if they don't want to buy it, you're not going to get anywhere and the ultimate sales experience is one where you can teach and counsel and guide. And then if you do it right, and you have the product that they need, that'll be pretty obvious all the way around. Danielle Cobo 12:51I agree with you sales is definitely not about selling a particular widget, it's how can you best understand the challenges and the pain points of what the customer is having provide a solution and deliver value. And that's whether you're mentoring someone teaching somebody or you're in sales and you're working with a customer is how can you find a way to bring value to that particular person? Michael Hingson 13:14Yeah, and a lot of it does have to do with pain or lack of better getting rid of it, but it is all about value. And you need to find out what value a particular individual has or needs, in order to see how you can make what you have fit into that if it's possible. So it makes perfect sense. So you, you did that for a while, and you kind of progress through if you will the the success ladder, you eventually ended up being a very successful sales manager. Yes. Danielle Cobo 13:49So I was very fortunate when I was in dental sales, the first five years of my career, I earned four consecutive awards for president's clubs. So what that means is when you're a top performer, you get awarded President's Club, which means you get a paid vacation on the company, which I always thoroughly enjoyed. It's what helped me travel some of the world some of my favorite places I've gone to is through the President's Club. And that was when I was an individual contributor. Eventually, when I went into leadership, I was very blessed to have taken a team who was historically one of the poorest performing teams, we were going through a hostile takeover. And I believed through my approach of heart centered leadership and really understanding the values of what my team want was like, what their values were and how it aligned with the company in the organization's value and building a team. We were able to take it to the number one region in our organization. So we were I was awarded region Manager of the Year which I believe is not just much about me being the manager of the year but it was more about our team achieving that number one goal Yeah, Michael Hingson 14:58and usually is about the team, not an individual. And that's what's always so frustrating with companies that have a successful team. And they reward the manager, but it's not the manager, it's the team. Danielle Cobo 15:13I think it's combination of the team and great leadership, because you can have a phenomenal team, but a poor manager, and you have a great manager and a phenomenal team. And that's the sweet spot of where success lies. Michael Hingson 15:26Yeah, and the really high end, very successful team often comes about because a leader knows how to guide people, I've always told people when I was managing them, that the most important thing that I can do is to figure out with you individually, how I can add value to what you do and make you successful. And that's what I should do as a manager, trying to make a team work well. Yeah, yeah. So it's always about adding value. So So how long were you in sales professionally, working for companies and so on all along? Danielle Cobo 16:03So I was in medical sales for about 15 years. So I left in August of 2020. Michael Hingson 16:10Okay, now, why did you leave Danielle Cobo 16:142020, like many of us experienced a year of a lot of transitions. And for me, I felt like transitions was happening professionally. And personally, for me, I started the year off January, early January, my husband was serving a deployment in Iraq. And while he was in Iraq, I remember this distinct moment of being on the phone with him. And over the phone, I hear Incoming, incoming, take cover, take cover, take accountability, take accountability. And for any of our listeners who have served in the military, you probably know that that means that your base is about to be attacked. And early January, while it's at our national sales meeting, my husband's base got attacked by 13 missiles. And by the grace of God, he was able to come home a few weeks later, and be able to come home and be in a position where he was safe. And we were grateful for that. And as we were trying to come together that I would say that it was difficult for him while it was difficult for us while he was deployed, because obviously put, he was in a whole nother country and I was I had my job. But I was also being the primary caretaker to our twin boys, which were two at the time. So it was a very demanding time period. But that transition home was very unique. I didn't really anticipate how different we were when we came back. I was a different person from him being gone. And he was a different person after serving at war. And so we really had put some effort and intention into reconnecting as a family. And right as we started to find our rhythm. March eighth is when I lost my mom and I lost my mom to suicide. And I was devastated. And I could you as you can imagine, probably got brought up at an another array of questions that I have from my mom when that conversation does happen on day. But I didn't get the time or space to really cope and heal with the loss of my mom, because just a week later, the pandemic hit Yeah. And I wasn't able to go back to California and sort through her things and maybe get some answers to some of my questions. In fact, if anything, the time period that that happened just right after that was a lot of uncertainty with the pandemic and and everything had been shut down. And looking at what is this? Is this going to be our new normal. This is what a lot of us I believe were asking ourselves. And just a couple months after the pandemic and shut the world down. The company that I had been with for seven years, had gone through an acquisition, and it was acquired by another company. And it became a very toxic work culture for where I was at. And so a company that I loved and it thoroughly enjoyed the people that I had worked with, had become so toxic that I in the series of events that had just taken place in my life professionally. And personally. I realized that I wasn't happy, and that I needed to leave. And I didn't know what the next step in my life was going to be. But I knew it was time to say goodbye. And that's why I ended up leaving the company that I was with. Michael Hingson 19:34And so what did you do? Did you take any time off to figure it out? Or what did you What did you end up doing once you left? Because that's a big step. Needless to say, of course to really decide to leave a company. I Danielle Cobo 19:48didn't have that next job lined up. So for the first time in over two decades, I was unemployed. And at first I was saying I'm going to get a job right away but Then I realized that it was going to be really difficult for me to show up as the best version of myself in my interviews if I wasn't happy, and I was still having anxiety and anxiousness over some of the events that had just taken place, I needed to not only heal from losing my mom, I needed to heal from that toxic work environment. So I decided to give myself to some time off. So I left in August of 2020. And I gave myself until January 1, to really dedicate some time off and I found myself getting into a healing, a healing technique that I get into, in my book, unstoppable grit is talking about getting into the creative flow. And I love the holidays, obviously, I started my entrepreneurial journey when I was when I was selling mistletoe. So during my time off, I spent a lot of my time, you know, spending time with my husband and my kids. But I hand painted all of the Christmas decorations that are outside of my house, that I still use today. And just that process of having something that I'm passionate about without being tied to a particular outcome helped me process my emotions helped me heal from the inside out, and helped me gain clarity on what this next step of my life was going to look like and whether I was going to go back to corporate or not. So I did end up taking some time off. Well, Michael Hingson 21:32not makes, you know, that makes a lot of sense. It's important to decompress. And it's important to really assess where you are and think about where you want to go. What was your husband doing? What When did he come back from the war. Danielle Cobo 21:45So he came back in late January, and he was able to take a few months off. So he's now a reservist. So he works the one weekend, a month, two weeks a year, but he's also a Blackhawk pilot. So he does still work quite a bit during the week for as to maintain his aviation hours as flight hours. But right when I right before I left the company, he had been extended a job offer to work as a project manager for an asphalt paving company. So he started to work. So we were very fortunate that we had one income that we were on. With that said, though, I in our relationship, I was the primary breadwinner. So there was a sense of I had tied so much of my identity to my career, and my job title and my paycheck and 401 K and stock options that when all of that was gone. I felt lost and confused. And I believe that that's another reason why I really needed to take some time to identify what success means to me and define my own version of success versus tying it to the outside of what society thinks that success should be. Michael Hingson 22:56So did your husband still work in asphalt? He Danielle Cobo 23:00does work in the asphalt industry. However, he does work for a new company. He's a VP of Operations for a milling company. And Michael Hingson 23:06he also does his black hawk. Yeah, probably not going to use a black hawk to carry asphalt somewhere, though I bet. Danielle Cobo 23:15No. Michael Hingson 23:18Well, so let's talk about this idea of success. Because we always hear people talking about what makes them successful, or they want to be successful. And it's such a nebulous term. And people have so many different views of buy, make a bunch of money that makes me successful. And I don't subscribe to that. I don't mind making money, I would like to make more money. But by the same token, I think there's a lot more to success. So what did you end up deciding that success really meant to you? Danielle Cobo 23:52To me, I so one of the exercises that I did, and I take people in my book, unstoppable grit, I take people through a series of exercises to help them to define to get clear on what their life's goals are, what their professional and life goals are, as well as getting defining what success means for them. So when I thought about how I may not know myself at this point, when I was going through all of those changes, I didn't know who I was, I remember I tied my identity to my career. So one of the activities I did is I went on Facebook, and I went on LinkedIn. And I said if there was three words to describe me, what would it be? And I was flooded with comments of driven, determined motivated, tenacious, gritty, empowering and Stier inspiring. And I said, so interesting because sometimes we don't see the strengths and us that other people see and us and I sort of that's how people are perceiving me. And this is such a strength of mine. How can I lean into this? Yeah, what are some ways that I could utilize this strength that I have where people feel like I'm inspiring and empowering them? And then I looked at, okay, I took all of these words. And the next step that I did was I wrote my own obituary. And I wrote my own obituary from the perspective of a colleague, and the perspective of my kids and my family. And I started to think of thinking about the words of way people were describing me, at the end of the day, when I when it comes time for me to pass, what do I want people to say, at my celebration of life? What? And it's about what type of impact do I want to make? And that in itself is how I started to really define what success means to me. It's not so much about the title, but I think about the impact of how do I get to make positive change in this world? How are people going to feel when I'm in the room? And when I'm out of the room? What impact is it going to make on their emotional and physical well being. So that's kind of what inspired me to pursue. And then the next step was, when I was working on rebuilding my brand, and I went on LinkedIn, and I started to work on rebuilding my brand, I started to share, okay, I'm going to start sharing inspirational quotes. This is something that people feel like I'm inspiring, well, then I'm going to just share my messages on LinkedIn. And eventually, I started to post quite frequently, and people started to reach out to me, and they started to say, You know what, I really enjoy your posts. I was feeling down today. And your post just lifted me up, or, Hey, I noticed that you have experienced as a hiring manager, will you please provide some perspective on how I can show up in the interview because I started to talk about leadership as well. Eventually, it rolled into people asking me to mentor them. And so I started to mentor people. And the continuous feedback that I started to hear from people was, you really should focus on career development. And instead of looking for a job, I believe that you should start speaking, and you should start career consulting. And that's what transpired into what I'm doing today. I had no intentions of starting a job. I mean, starting a business. In fact, I thought that I was going to be going on LinkedIn so that I could be looking for a job. But I ended up transpiring into two and a half years later, I now do speaking full time, I have a podcast, unstoppable grit podcast, and I have a best selling book, unstoppable grit, and I more fulfilled than I ever have been before, because I get to see the transformation in people's lives. And that is fulfilling. Michael Hingson 27:49What is your business called? Danielle Cobo 27:52My business is ironically, its first and lasting impressions. It's when I first started the business when I was doing a lot of career coaching, but I never use it. It's just what it says. Most of my focus in is my tagline is ignite transformation lead with grit and resilience. Wow. Michael Hingson 28:08That's a pretty good mouthful. Well, so you have been doing it and I gather pretty successful. Are you getting a lot of clients? Are they from all over? I assume you mostly from a business standpoint, do virtual work? Danielle Cobo 28:24From a business standpoint, I actually do a lot of in person speaking. So either company speaking Yeah. Yeah, speaking, I'll come in and I'll, I'll facilitate and lead leadership programs. So I've got a peak performance leadership program that I'll lead, or they'll have me come in and do speaking. And then from the coaching and consulting aspect, most of that is virtual. Michael Hingson 28:44Yeah, that's what I was thinking all over the world. Cool. And you work with people all over the world. Danielle Cobo 28:50Yeah, right. That's one of the benefits of technology these days is just like you and I are having a conversation on two different coasts of the US zoom and some of the other technologies that are available out there have really been able to expand our reach of the people that we get to serve. Michael Hingson 29:06We you have had to balance a lot of things, you know, you lost your mother, your husband came back you you left your job and so on. And you are also being the caregiver for for two twin boys. How did you balance all of that? It Danielle Cobo 29:24was not easy. So I I believe that that is you know, what we see on Instagram and social media, people have this perception of this is my life and it's I'm smiling in every picture. I'm very transparent and saying that year that he was deployed was very difficult. There were many times that I was exhausted and I felt overwhelmed. But I knew going into that year that I needed to be very intentional about what was important to me. So I knew that the year that he was deployed, there was a couple focuses that I wanted to enjoy sure if I was able to uphold when it came to prioritizing my family, and I knew that even though I needed to travel every single week, I knew that I either wanted to be there to put my kids to bed, or I wanted to be there when they woke up. And sometimes that meant red eye flights. And sometimes that meant getting really creative with my travel schedule. But if there were times where I was going to be doing an overnight, I always at least wanted to be there. For one of those. I was also very intentional. There'll be times where I knew that I had a manager's meeting, I would be gone for one week. So I'd fly my parents out so that they get to spend quality time with their grandkids. And if I was going to be gone for an extended period of time for work, I knew that I intentionally wanted to ensure that the next couple of days that I got home, was one on one quality time with my kids. So I think if anything, when it comes to creating balance in our lives, and I'm not saying balance is an equal share of time of work, and family, because we do spend more time at work than we do with our own family. When I say balances, how is your soul balanced? Where are you balanced in, in, in your energy, and it all comes down to being intentional about how we're spending our time and who we're spending our time with? Michael Hingson 31:19You know, you've, you've said a whole lot of interesting things to talk about here. In our world today, we have so many people who are so tied up and work and so on, they say well, I really don't have a lot of time to be home with my kids, my wife when she was still alive, talked about being a teacher, and was a teacher for 10 years. And, and a lot of times, she felt that kids were really not paying attention to her. And what she realized eventually is as she described them, they were latchkey kids, they really took care of themselves. The parents were off, she taught it at Irvine High School. And so the kids really took care of themselves, they took care of each other at home, they even did a lot of the cooking and so on. How do you help people to understand that there's really a need to do a little bit more of a balance to spend more time with your kids. Danielle Cobo 32:19I live by the philosophy, take care of yourself, take care of your family, and then take care of your customers. So in order for us to show up as the best versions of ourselves, whether it be a spouse, a friend, a colleague or parent, we've got to take care of ourselves first. Yeah. And that means mental, emotional, and physical well being. And then it's taking care of our families. I actually just got off a conversation with somebody recently. And they were asking me to be on a board of directors for a particular organization. And I am very intentional that between the hours of five and 730 are my hours with my kids. That is where my phone is often in another room. I am cooking dinner with my kids, my kids do everything with me. So they don't just sit on the couch and play with their tablets. No, they're with me. And they're cooking, and they're learning and that is our quality time together. And, you know, there's going to be times where I may be saying No, and it's not a no, it's uh, not right now, not right now for this phase of life that I'm in. And that's okay. Because eventually there's going to be a phase in life, where my kids are going to want to spend more time with their friends than it is with me. But for right now, I am going to enjoy every moment while they still want to be little latchkey kids to me, and spend that quality time with them and be intentional about it. So I think that's important for us to remember that these you know, as a parent you often hear the days are long, but the years are short. And they do go by quickly. And you know if I do balance a lot running a business and travel and kids and family, but I always look at ensuring that when I'm looking at my calendar ahead, where's my family time first, and then I work everything around that. Michael Hingson 34:11I had an interesting discussion just this morning with someone about scheduling time and dealing with time and she said that she spends Well, she does a lot of over committing and she's got to learn and she's working on learning how not to be quite so overzealous and accepting so many things. And I talked about my experience a little bit, especially in the last four years. I've been using my Outlook calendar as a way to really define what I do. So I have meetings, as you know, where we talk about doing a podcast and they're a half hour and I have the actual podcast interviews which are roughly an hour and all of that gets scheduled on the calendar. And I've also blocked off certain times that we don't schedule, or can't schedule, or at least Calendly can schedule and I can schedule something in or I use that time to do things like catch up or eat breakfast or visit or whatever. But if I need to, I can schedule a particular appointment. The other part about the Calendly is that when somebody schedules an interview, and this is I think what gelled with and resonated with her this morning, when I schedule an interview, let's say not an interview, but an additional an initial introductory meeting, let's say it's it noon, my time at 1230, roughly speaking, because it could go a little longer, but roughly 1230, the meeting is over. But nothing can be scheduled on the calendar for the next half hour, which also means that that gives me time to reflect catch up, or whatever. And I really think that doing something to make sure that I scheduled time appropriately. And I learn to manage time is such an important thing to do. And I think so many of us don't do that. Danielle Cobo 36:15I agree the I love the fact that you are looking at your calendar and managing your time so well by our calendar, because we can put parameters in our calendar that are going to help us create a better be intentional about spending time for ourselves as well as our family. I remember when my kids were in VPK, so they were four years old, and they're going to VPK, they would get home at 1215. So I always blocked out time around 1215, it was always blocked out a half hour, so that I would always be the one my nanny would go pick up my kids. But I would always be the one to open the door and open, like with wide arms ready to hug them so that they walked in the door and that I was the first person that they saw. That only takes 15 minutes. But I imagine that that's probably so impactful that they feel like I'm always there for them. Yeah. And then only was just a few minutes throughout the day, just that I blocked off and having those parameters to do that. It's the little things that make the biggest difference. It's not always about the the quantity of time sometimes because they are kids like her own independence, but it's about the quality of time that we're there for our family. Michael Hingson 37:25Well, in the other part about his Yeah, kids like their own independence, and so on. But at the same time, if you're all communicating, and you learn to understand each other, then not only can you have meaningful conversations, if something needs to change, or a kid wants to change something, and it may not be the right time, but you can talk about it. Because you've learned to really know each other, which is so important. I want to get back to this success thing a little bit. I assume that when you were in the corporate world success was defined in one way, and you would probably define it differently today. How do you define it now as opposed to how you defined it then? And? And how do you how do you deal with that in the corporate world, when success probably isn't necessarily just what the corporate world thinks it is. But it's what it wants you to think it is? Danielle Cobo 38:18That's a great question. I believe that success is when our core values are aligned with what we do. And so when you talked about money, for example, and you say there's a lot of people will view success as making a lot of money. Well, to me, I'm driven to make money. But what's the why behind it? The more money I make, the more money I get to give and donate and make a positive impact in this world. So to me, my somewhat my somewhat of my success is making money so that I can make a positive impact. And that's part of my core values is impact. So when you think about what does success mean to you? It's how does your core values align with what you do? And do you feel when it is aligned? Do you feel fulfilled? Because that to me is what when you've have found success? Well, Michael Hingson 39:12I am curious, also, if we could you wrote your own obituary, what did you say? Danielle Cobo 39:24Oh, I said, from my kids perspective, from a from my kids perspective, is that I was always there for them, that they felt safe to be themselves and that they can come to me for anything, and then I would support them and believe in them. I think that it's so important as a parent and even as an employer that we create a psychologically safe environment for people to show up authentically as themselves and to be vulnerable and to share their challenges and to have open In discussions and whether it's with your kids, whether it's with your employees, but my hope is that when I show up in this world, people feel like they are seen that they're heard that they're supported, that they're acknowledged, and that they believe in themselves. And that's part of the impact and legacy that I want to leave. Michael Hingson 40:24When you started your business, I mean, clearly, it kind of snuck up on you a little bit, needless to say, but it it was, in a sense, as you discovered your passion, but how did you make sure that what you chose to do, because of your passion really became and would remain a sustainable business? How do you or do you even separate the two? I Danielle Cobo 40:50always, when I kind of look at where is my business going? And where am I spending time, I look at kind of where what brings me joy. So I thoroughly enjoy coaching. So I still keep that a part of my business, because I enjoy the intimacy of seeing the transformation, and working with somebody for a six month, year, year timeframe and seeing the transformation over time. But I also like to see the reach that I get to make when I'm doing a speaking engagement. And so when I'm thinking about different programs, where I'm thinking about different aspects of my business that I want to focus my time in, I always kind of gut check it with myself and say, Well, how is this aligning with my core values? Michael Hingson 41:38When you started your business, what kind of challenges did you have to overcome? Or what were some of the challenges? And how did you overcome them? Danielle Cobo 41:47I believe that one of the biggest challenges that I had, was this self doubt this inner critic, can you be successful? A lot of times it right, right. In the beginning, people started to ask me for career coaching. And I said, Well, who am I to be a career coach? Yeah. And now I laugh about it. Because I said, Where did that even come from? Because I was a hiring manager for seven years, I look at some of the career coaches that are out there. And they don't have the first hand experience of interviewing people of building high performing teams, they don't have that experience you. And so when I think that anytime that you are experiencing self doubt, look back at some of the challenges that you've experienced, what were the steps that you took to overcome them? How has it shaped me shaped you into the person that you have that you are today? What experience have you gained? And are you continuing to uplevel your competencies and skill sets because even though I do have experience as a hiring manager and building high performing teams, I'm constantly reinvesting in myself, so that I can continue to stay on the competitive and cutting edge of where business is today to ensure that I'm aligning value and where we are today, because the world is always changing. How Michael Hingson 43:09do you keep up with all that? What do you do to keep up with business and new trends? I Danielle Cobo 43:15focus a lot of time I dedicate time to listening to podcasts, to reading books to reading articles. I spend time on LinkedIn kind of seeing what the market trends are what people are saying, I have a level of awareness of being able to see trends on different platforms, and kind of hearing some of the pain points that are out in the industry. But I think that it's important that to stay to stay relevant. You've got to dedicate a part of your time in your business and in doing research. Michael Hingson 43:49Otherwise, you're not able to connect with people because they've evolved right or wrong. And if you don't keep up you haven't. When did you write unstoppable grit. Danielle Cobo 44:03I started writing the book in May of 2022. No 2022. So it took me about a little over a year to write the book. But then of course, it took some time to go through several rounds of copy editing and content editing and oh yeah, cover design. Michael Hingson 44:21There is all of that. But but it is out there. What kind of lessons did you learn about perseverance from writing the book that you might want to pass on? There Danielle Cobo 44:31were many times that I wanted to give up because it was exhausting trying to run a business while being a present mom and spouse and writing a book and I was dedicating 20 hours a week to writing the book in addition to everything that I was doing so I was getting up before my family was getting up and writing and then you know after they'd go to bed I would write and throughout the day would write and I believe that any when it comes to perseverance It is really envisioning what you want the end game to look like, and ensuring that you are consistently checking in with yourself and saying, envisioning, how's it going to feel when you achieve your goal? Because that's going to keep the motivation to keep going. So when I think about what is it going to feel like to hold the book in my hands? How was I going to feel when I start to receive those messages of people who have read the book and say, Hey, Chapter Three really resonated with me, I love the exercises that you walk me through. So I started to envision what people were going to respond with. And that's what helped keep the perseverance and motivation going when I would hit those roadblocks when I would want to give up Michael Hingson 45:43what made you decide initially to write the book? What got you started down that road? Yeah, I Danielle Cobo 45:49initially, I felt like, I wanted to have a voice. And when I towards the tail end of me working with the organization, and it was a toxic work environment, I didn't feel like I had a voice, I felt like I was very much so kind of pushed down. And I had done so much work, to help me move past some of those challenges that I had throughout my life. And I was like, if I have experienced some of these challenges, and I've found tools that have helped me, I wonder if there's other people out there that it will help them. And that's really what inspired the book. And when I always kind of there was times where I would always gut check myself and say if I can, if I can, if the book can change one person's life, at the end of the day, that will be worth it. And if anything, it was a very healing process to go through. There's a lot that you discover about yourself and the why you do the things that you do when you write a book. Yeah. Well, Michael Hingson 46:52a lot to be said for that, then writing a book isn't easy. I can say that with experience, but at the same time, it is fun. And especially then once it comes out has sales been good? Has the book been pretty successful? Yeah, the book Danielle Cobo 47:09hit best seller within its first week. So it hit best seller for job hunting, best seller for women in business, and then top new release for motivational self help. That's on Amazon. That's on Amazon. So and it doesn't actually fit ship until February 21. So we're still in pre launch. Wow, Michael Hingson 47:30that's pretty exciting. So did the publisher do it? Or did you self publish? Danielle Cobo 47:36We self published. Okay. Hybrid publishing. Michael Hingson 47:38Hybrid publishing? Well, that's fair. That's cool. Well, going back to what you did, you left the corporate world, you started your own business that has to have occurred, in part because you've had to probably you had to change some of your your mindsets. What's kind of a big mindset that you shifted, when you went from corporate to being your own entrepreneur, Danielle Cobo 48:04I believe the biggest mindset shift that took place was refocusing. And seeing seeing the impact do you get to make on like, focusing on the team level, but then how can you create transformation in a shorter period of time, because when you're working with a team, you get to work so closely with them. And however, but when you're doing like a keynote speech, you may get them for you may get to work with them for an hour, so you may get to, and then also, you can continue on with doing workshops. So it's these kind of micro moments within people's lives, and how can you make the biggest impact in those short periods of time? Now, that was a shift for me. Yeah. Michael Hingson 48:52Because you were working with teams, and you could either delegate or you all work together, but it became more of just you, as opposed to having the same kind of team. But on the other hand, one of the things that I found and being a public speaker is that learning about the audience as much ahead of time, and doing the things that I did, I also discovered that, in reality, when I'm giving a speech, I'm talking with the audience, they're really part of the team. Danielle Cobo 49:26Great perspective, they really are, Michael Hingson 49:29they really are part of the team and, and I value that, that they really need to be so I never believe that I talked to an audience, I need to be able to talk with an audience and I will find ways to interact and give them the opportunity to interact when I speak as well because they are a team. We are a team. Yeah, Danielle Cobo 49:48no one wants to be talked to right they want to be involved in the conversation. I think those those days of standing on stage and just talking to the audience is probably surpass People want to be, we know from research that when people are in are involved in the process, the learning process, whether they're repeating the information, they're writing it down, they're getting up, they're standing up when they're involved in the process. And they're going to retain that information at a higher level than if they're just sitting and listening and trying to digest it. So I believe I'm in agreeance, with you that getting them involved and having them be part of the team is, is where, where the industry is going at this point, and what is going to best serve the audience. I've Michael Hingson 50:34also found that, like a lot of times when I'm doing meetings, or when I'm doing a keynote speech, and then when I've observed other people doing speeches, they'll have a bunch of slides, or they may even have material to hand out. And the problem with that, that I see is, slides actually separate you from the team and handout separate you from the team, because people are focusing on the slides on the handouts. And they're not focusing on what you have to say, and there needs to be a better way. Or we really need to be a little bit smarter about finding a way to make sure that when we're speaking with that were really speaking and they're listening, and let the handouts and slides serve a different purpose. Perhaps later. Danielle Cobo 51:22Yeah, that's an interesting perspective. Because I believe that people learn in various ways. Yeah, I'm one of those people that loves handouts, because I love to take notes. In fact, sometimes when there isn't time where I can't take notes, I get frustrated. So I enjoy handouts. I like to take notes, I like visual presentations. Now I'm in agreeance, with you if a visual presentation is, is if the speaker is relying on the visual presentation to give this speech, then they're not using it for the right way. Yeah, that's what I'm saying. Yep, exactly. So the presentation is a complement to the keynote to provide a visual representation of the principles that they're teaching. But it is not the speech. So I believe it's important that as speakers, we really understand, like you said, understand your audience, and tailor your approach to the desires that they have and what they're used to. I've worked with some organizations where that's an expectation that there's a PowerPoint presentation to go along with it. And then I've worked with some organizations where they've said, No, we prefer not to have a PowerPoint presentation. So seeking to understand what your audience's needs and wants and desires are is important. As a speaker, I Michael Hingson 52:31have done a number of PowerPoint presentations, although in a lot of the speaking I've done lately, I haven't. But I like sometimes to do PowerPoint presentations for a different reason, actually. And that is nobody expects a blind person to do a PowerPoint presentation and being able to point to the screen. And what I love to do is when I'm doing a PowerPoint presentation, I will actually in my script, have all the information about where different things show up on the screen, and literally can point over my shoulder to whatever it is that I want to draw people's attention to. But my my best example of how successful that is, for me as a strategy is that I gave a speech once or a presentation once and was doing a PowerPoint show. And somebody came up afterwards and said, We're mad at you. And I said why? And he said, well, because usually when people do the kinds of presentations that you're doing, they're first of all, very boring. Second of all, they focus more on looking at the screen, and they're either reading just from the screen, or they're they're trying to see where they're pointing, and so on. And they're not paying attention to us. And so we fall asleep. You never looked away. We didn't dare fall asleep. We forgot you were blind. Oh, Danielle Cobo 53:44that's a good compliment. Well, I Michael Hingson 53:46was. But I also said, well, even if you had it doesn't matter, my dogs down here taking notes. So we would have Gotcha. But but you know, it's it's true. And all too often we rely on visual aids and miss the value of having that greater interaction with audiences. Yeah, which I think is important. Danielle Cobo 54:06Yeah. I'm glad that the that the way that the industry is moving now, is that more interactive presentations? Yeah. Michael Hingson 54:15What would you advise someone? Or how would you advise someone who's kind of at a career crossroads, and they want to move toward their passion or doing something different kind of advice do you give them one Danielle Cobo 54:26of the advice that I give them, because I continue to hear through the pandemic, we went through the great resignation. And one of the barrier that I keep continuing to hear from people is I want clarity, I want clarity. So one of the exercises that I take people through in my book is take your resume, and then take a piece of paper and on your resume and look at your resume and write down three aspects of each job that you've had. What did you love about that job, and what did you dislike about that job? And as you're going through each of the roles that you've had throughout your career, you may see a theme that comes out, I really enjoy these aspects. And there's a theme throughout each of the roles that you've had. That might be one way of getting some clarity on understanding what your passions are. Think about when you're at work. When are the times where you enjoy the most like you get energized when doing a particular role, wrap, task or responsibility. That's another way of seeing where your passions lie. Look at where your hobbies are. And then how could you turn those passions, those hobbies, the role, the particular aspects that you currently do in your current job? And what you like about it? How could you possibly find a job that aligns with it? Or start a business that aligns with it? Michael Hingson 55:49What's next for you? What is your future going to look like? What do you want to do for the next part of your life? Do you want to learn to fly? Or do you want to fly a Blackhawk? But anyway, Danielle Cobo 55:59I have no desire. Michael Hingson 56:02Has he ever taken you for a ride? Danielle Cobo 56:05No, he has not require him in me that would meet require me joining the military and I have no desire. I have the utmost respect for the military. But I I've served enough as a spouse, I do not want to join. Okay, okay. What's next for me is I do see the possibility of writing another book. So I'm working on a workbook that complements the book, I do see that and I just continue to be flexible and seeing what resonates with the readers. And that's going to be the direction of where my business goes. Michael Hingson 56:36You're going to continue being an entrepreneur doing what you're doing, and you're enjoying it way too much not to. Yes, Danielle Cobo 56:44I mean, I owe that the thought process does go through my mind of what would it look like to go back to corporate, there's an aspect of missing the steady paycheck and the Commission earnings and 401k and company current stock options. I was very blessed. I had a very lucrative career when I was in corporate. But every time I think about that, I go, am I willing to take that and trade it for something that every single morning even though sometimes it feels like I work more now than I did when I was in corporate, it doesn't feel like work because it feels like I'm just doing my hobby because I'm so passionate about what I do. And and I'm not willing to give that up at this point. And the freedom that I have with my family. You know, now because I'm not tied to a particular company, I get to travel with my kids, I could go to California and my parents could take them for a day while we're out there for a week. And I work that day and I take the rest of the time off during the week. In fact, every time I go to a National Speakers Association Conference The following week, I take my kids out to California for a week and we get quality time as a family. That flexibility I really enjoy at this phase in my life right now. That's cool. Michael Hingson 57:59Well, if people want to learn more about you, maybe explore letting you or having you coach them and so on. How do they do that? Danielle Cobo 58:05The best place to find me is to go to my website, Danielle cobo.com. And you can also find me on LinkedIn and then of course pick up the book unstoppable grit on Amazon. Michael Hingson 58:15And Cobo is C o b o Yeah, think Danielle Cobo 58:18of the Cobos are going to Cabo. Oh, Michael Hingson 58:22there you go. Oh, an A and when are you going? Danielle Cobo 58:25No, I wish, you know, think about the military that continues to put some restraints on where he can go. Well, Michael Hingson 58:34and when Yeah, so that's fair. Well, I want to thank you again for being here. And I want to thank all of you for listening to us. I hope you've enjoyed this. I would really appreciate it if you give us a five star rating wherever you have heard our podcasts wherever you're listening to us. We appreciate your five star ratings and we appreciate your reviews and any comments that you have so please pass them on. If you'd like to reach out to me an email I'd love it. You can reach me at Michaelhi M i c h a e l h i at accessiBe A c c e s s i b e.com. You can also go to our podcast page www dot Michael hingson. That's m i c h l h i n g s o n.com/podcast. But either way, we'd love to hear from you love your thoughts. And Danielle for you and everyone. If you know anyone who might be in ought to be a guest on unstoppable mindset. We'd really love to hear from you. We value your your input and your thoughts and appreciate your introductions. So please do it. And again, Daniel, I want to thank you for being here and spending so much time with us. We appreciate it a great deal. Danielle Cobo 59:39Thank you so much. It was an honor to be on the podcast. Michael Hingson 59:46You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com . AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week

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Yes, a long title but absolutely appropriate and worth it for this guest. Meet Joe Sherman. Joe grew up in a family being the youngest of seven siblings. His parents who had not gone to college wanted their children to do better than they in part by getting a college education. Joe pretty much always wanted to go into medicine, but first obtained a bachelor’s degree in Engineering. As he said, in case what he really wanted to do didn’t pan out he had something to fall back on.

Joe, however, did go on and obtain his MD and chose Pediatrics. Wait until you hear his reasoning of why he wanted to help child patients over adults.

Much of my time with Joe revolves around discussing the current status and future of medicine. Spoiler alert! I already invited Joe back for a second episode. He had a lot of good and interesting material to share and there was simply no way to get it all into one episode. I hope you will find my discussion with Joe Sherman beneficial, productive and helpful to you, especially if you are a doctor.

About the Guest:

Dr. Joe Sherman helps health professionals transform their relationship with the unrelenting demands of their jobs and discover a path toward meaning, professional fulfillment, and career longevity. He believes the key to personal and professional success lies in bringing “soul to role” in your medical practice.

Dr. Sherman is a paediatrician, coach and consultant to physicians and healthcare organizations in the areas of cross-cultural medicine, leadership, and provider well-being. He is a facilitator with the Center for Courage & Renewal and a Master Certified Physician Development Coach with the Physician Coaching Institute.

Dr. Sherman has been in pediatric practice for over 35 years concentrating on healthcare delivery to underserved and medically complex children in the District of Columbia, Tacoma, Seattle, Uganda, and Bolivia. He has held numerous faculty positions and is currently Clinical Associate Professor of Pediatrics at the University of Washington.Learn more at skyeteam.com

Ways to connect with Dr.Joe:

My website is:https://joeshermanmd.com/

LinkedIn:www.linkedin.com/in/joeshermanmd

Direct email connection:joe@joeshermanmd.com

About the Host:Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.

Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children’s Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association’s 2012 Hero Dog Awards.

https://michaelhingson.comhttps://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/https://twitter.com/mhingsonhttps://www.youtube.com/user/mhingsonhttps://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/

accessiBe Linkshttps://accessibe.com/https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBehttps://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/

https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/

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Transcription Notes:

Michael Hingson 00:00Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us. Michael Hingson 01:21Well, hi, everyone. Thanks for being here with us. We're glad that you're here. Wherever you happen to be in the world. I am your host, Michael Hingson. And you are now listening to or watching unstoppable mindset. We're inclusion, diversity in the unexpected meet. And unexpected is what we do most of the time. Anyway. So that's what we're going to do today, we get to chat with Dr. Joe Sherman, who is a board certified pediatrician. And he is also a certified master coach. And specifically, he is a master certified physician development coach, which is even more impressive sounding. We're gonna learn about that as we go forward. But I want to again, thank you all for being here. And Joe, welcome to unstoppable mindset. Thanks for being here with us. Dr. Joe Sherman 02:13Thanks for having me, Michael. I really appreciate the invitation. Michael Hingson 02:17Now you're up in the Washington area, right? Dr. Joe Sherman 02:20I am. I'm in Seattle, Washington, the land of cold freezing rain and clouds right now. Michael Hingson 02:27Ie up well, it got up to 64 today here where I am down in Victorville. And so I have little space heaters that are keeping the house warm enough that I don't have to turn on the gas furnace. And so that saves a bunch of money since everything here is in this new house is solar. We like that. Dr. Joe Sherman 02:48That sounds very cozy compared to the rest of the country. Well, Michael Hingson 02:53at least it's it's cozy here. My cat likes it and Alamo, my guide dog like it so I can't, can't complain too much. Good for you. Well, why don't we start? Why don't you tell us a little bit about the earlier Joe Sherman growing up and some of that stuff? Dr. Joe Sherman 03:11Sure, I'd love to. So I am originally from the east coast, from Washington, DC, and I'm the youngest of seven kids. And when I grew up in my family, it was all about get the education get the most education you can and achieve as much as you can academically to go as far as you can. Neither of my parents went to college. And so it was a big deal, especially for my father to make sure we we all went to college and and it really I think the message I got was find a profession and a job that you actually want to go into work every day to do. Michael Hingson 03:54How many of you were there? How many sores seven of us, oh my god and Dr. Joe Sherman 04:00and he worked for the post office and he had tough work tougher out there. But he was able to put five of seven of us through college and through our work and his work. But there definitely was a message that I went into college with which was at being the youngest of seven, wanting to do something different from the rest wanting to be better than the rest often because competition was big. And no one was in healthcare. And I really enjoyed this idea of trying to be of service to people. I enjoyed coaching sports, I enjoyed tutoring and, and being doing community service things. And I thought since I did well academically, Madison was a great route to go. So that's the route I took. studied engineering in college because my parents, and I decided you always want to have a backup in case you don't make it into medical school and engineering was a good, good way to get a job. And most of this stuff really is a preface to how much we follow the messages we were given by other people and the messages which have been kind of, programmed into us for better or for worse by people who really wanted the best for us. And for me, that was to go to medical school. And I thought that that would be a great profession, social status, income, helping people and giving me a certain amount of autonomy as far as where I would work and, and kind of what I would do. If those were the reasons I went in that direction. Michael Hingson 06:00It's interesting. I've heard so many times on unstoppable mindset and just other times in my life about how parents didn't go to college, and they wanted their children to go to college, and they were really committed to doing it. But I love the other part, which parents sometimes did, and sometimes didn't necessarily do, which in your case was find a job that you like and that you want. And I think that's really great. They were not only really committed to helping you go to college, but they wanted you to do what you found enjoyable to do, which is cool. Dr. Joe Sherman 06:38Exactly. And they were very supportive. I have to say, since I was the youngest of seven, by the time I made it into college and was making my way through, they were getting older, and they were getting sick with different ailments to the point that my senior year of college, they both died. What year was separate incidences that was in 1980 1880, and 1981. So Michael Hingson 07:12did they're getting older and having illnesses in any way influenced you to being interested in medicine. Dr. Joe Sherman 07:20My experience, I would say, with interacting with their doctors and the medical system, as they became ill and eventually died, definitely influenced the kind of doctor I became. And my approach to medicine. Michael Hingson 07:40Will Tell me more about that, if you would what? Dr. Joe Sherman 07:42Well is almost a contrast of two extremes. My mother died of heart disease, and she was diagnosed with heart disease after I was born, and was in the hospital for months. And then the rest of her life, she struggled with congestive heart failure. She had a cardiologist to doctor who was actually a friend of the families. He was there with her every step of the way. The night before she died, I was in the hospital there, having then called back from school to be there because she was so sick. And he brought his wife to the hospital that night, to say goodbye to be with her, and, and to be able to talk to the family. And so shot was an example of a very supportive, compassionate physician accompanying someone at a tough time, Michael Hingson 08:44that had to have an impact on you. That was Dr. Joe Sherman 08:47a big impact. The other extreme was a couple of months after my mother died, my father had gone in for a procedure for finding blood in his urine. And eventually, he didn't know what was going on. And what the reason was. His doctor never told him but instead told me a 21 year old kid that he had metastatic bladder cancer and was going to die. There was no treatment for that. Michael Hingson 09:22I didn't why didn't he tell his patient? Dr. Joe Sherman 09:25Well, I asked him that question. And I said, Well, I don't think my father knows the diagnosis, or that there's no treatment. Is there are you going to tell him? And he said, Well, I was a little worried that he might get too depressed since his wife just died. And I was not in medicine. I didn't know what I was listening to. But that doctor after two follow up visits after his procedure and diagnosis and Ever Told him and my oldest brother eventually had to tell him. And that was a very, very difficult time in my life when I was home over Christmas break, and I knew my father was going to die. And he didn't know. That really was the negative example for the kind of doctor I wanted to be. I want did not want to be someone that was dishonest with my patients that wasn't supportive of my patients that wasn't there to answer their questions and to accompany them at any point in time. Yeah. Michael Hingson 10:45In 2014, my wife became ill started with bronchitis and it kept getting worse. And we both had colds. And mine didn't last long. But she had been in a wheelchair her whole life, and tended to when she got when she got a cold or the flu or anything, she really got it. And so she ended up going into the hospital on a Saturday and the next day, they had to put her on a ventilator because it went into double pneumonia and acute respiratory distress syndrome. And her lungs. And they told me it happened, like literally just in a few hours because they thought she had the flu. And she kept saying she didn't. And I knew she didn't. But anyway, her note lungs were more than 90% occluded. By the time they got her on a ventilator, and they put her in an induced coma. And the ventilator to start to try to clear out the lungs. They had to use a peeps level of 39 just to get air into her lungs. Yeah. You understand that? Because I guess normally peeps is the I forget what peep stands for. But it's basically the pressure that it takes to put air into your lungs. And it's normally between two and five. Dr. Joe Sherman 12:04Exactly. Positive and inspiratory pressure. Michael Hingson 12:09Yeah. And she had 39 Everybody from around the hospital came just to see the gauges because no one believed it. But she survived. Wow. And the so the doctors were honest with me. And when they finally brought her out of the coma they had, they had given her propofol. So this was now with night it was 2014. So as long after Michael Jackson, but when she did come out of it, I asked her if she remembered singing thriller, or any of those kinds of things says she had propofol. But she, they also were very forthright with her. They knew that she understood her body. And we were very pleased at the fact that people were direct with her in a good way. But they they did not try to keep things from her. Dr. Joe Sherman 13:08I think that's very important I, in my situation, it was as I started to go through medical school, especially in my clinical years, I used to go back as a medical student and sit with my patients and talk to them get to know them better. It was not just a matter of carrying out all of the duties that a medical student was supposed to do. But it was truly getting to know my patients as people. Yeah, not just diagnoses. And that was influenced a lot by what I experienced with my parents. Michael Hingson 13:50When I was going down the stairs getting out of the World Trade Senator, we had firefighters passing us and so on. And we asked what was going on. And they didn't tell us. And there were a couple of other times along the way that I asked people what was happening. And they said, there's just no time to really tell you, this is what you got to do. I also know that they probably did that with me and others because they didn't want to cause panic by saying terrorists and attack the towers. On the other hand for me, and they didn't know b Of course, I love information. And it would have been invaluable for me to know, because it would have actually made a difference in the decisions that we made and where we walked, which ended up putting us in more danger because we were very close to tower to when it collapsed rather than going a different way. And but you know, they didn't know me and I appreciate people not doing that. But I also think that we as a people can learn to accept information. But it is a problem that we have often that we we let unexpected things overwhelm us and Fear blindness as I describe it, as opposed to learning to control it, and it is, it is a problem. So, I would think that the doctors really should have understood or your doctor should have understood about your father, and it would have been appropriate and honest. But sometimes they're afraid to I guess. Exactly, Dr. Joe Sherman 15:20exactly. I think that was the situation that was, you know, as physicians, we are given a lot of power we are. And we are built up during our medical training to believe that we have the answers to always expect to have the answers. And when we don't have an answer, when we don't have a treatment or cure, then sometimes we feel like we failed in some way. And so being present to patients in that moment, can be very difficult for some physicians. For me, it's just a change in plan. It's a plan that doesn't involve an operation or chemotherapy, or whatever the treatments that would be futile otherwise, might be. But instead, the plan going ahead is to comfort patients and to be present to family members and answer as many questions as possible. And I think that that also is delivering medical care and to be compassionate to patients and families. I Michael Hingson 16:46have heard so many times when someone who has eye problems goes to see their ophthalmologist, and the ophthalmologist after doing whatever work they do, knows that this person is going to lose their eyesight. And they just say, I'm sorry, there's nothing I can do. And they leave the room. And they're taught, I'm told oftentimes in the schools where they go, that if they can't save a person's eyesight, then it's really a failure. And we've got to somehow get away from those kinds of attitudes and ideas. Dr. Joe Sherman 17:29Yes, I think this is something that everybody is different, you know, every physician is different. And I think a lot. I think something that's forgotten is that we all come into medical training, already with our demeanors our personalities, our belief systems, as well as our values. And we're taught to fit in a certain way, and behave a certain way in order to get to our destination, which is graduating from medical school, finishing a residency and getting a specialty. And during that process, many of us lose sight of who we are, what our values are. Because we've been given things to take on such as death as a failure, or you should always know the correct treatment. Otherwise, you failed certain amount of perfectionism a certain amount of European never, you're never going to know it at all. So you always are have to keep working, working, working and striving. It's Yes, it's a recipe for burnout easily. Yeah. Michael Hingson 18:48And nowadays, of course, in our sort of fractured chaotic society, on so many things in the medical environment in the medical world have become politicized, which has to really make it even harder for doctors. Dr. Joe Sherman 19:06Yes, I would say I think for most physicians that I encounter, the the politics that that they wrestle with more than anything is the business of health care. How they can fit into the increasing corporatization of health care. Yeah. Coming from coming from a profession that is really meant to be human centered, and relationship based. But functioning within an environment of business and corporate gain is a cultural collision that many physicians are wrestling with now. Michael Hingson 19:56Yeah, I'm the in the insurance industry in the corporate business industry just seems to want to dominate and forget what medicine and the philosophy of medicine and being a doctor is really all about. Dr. Joe Sherman 20:16Yes, I think it's, you know, it's it's a challenge, because in our country and the United States, healthcare is really a commodity that we purchase, just like everything else. It's not, it's not considered to be a right like a social, like a social benefit that government is responsible for. There are only select groups of the population that that is considered to be a responsibility of government. And even that is extremely politicized and charged. But because it is a commodity, to be bought and sold, right now we have medical groups, hospitals, health systems that are being bought and sold by corporations, venture capitalists, private equity firms, every kind of businesses that you can imagine. How Michael Hingson 21:18do you deal with the issue, though, and I've heard people argue this that, yeah, the whole idea of socialized medicine, and as in other countries, and so on, but we're more advanced, we've done more to contribute to medical progress here than anywhere else. And that has happened in part, because of the capitalistic way we do things and the business and competitive way we do things. Dr. Joe Sherman 21:44Yes, I would say, for our situation in United States, as far as medical technology, advances in research, for the most technical specialized care, we have made amazing strides. Even since I finished medical school, I can't keep up with the amount of medical information that there is, and, and everything that's been discovered, and, and, and all the technology available in hospitals. However, if you look at primary care, and access to quality care, across the board for the entire population, we really have not made such great progress. And as far as developing countries around the world, we are decreasing in our progress as far as access and quality primary care for everyone. Michael Hingson 22:48Yeah, it is really strange. To see what's happened in the world of medicine, and so on, and I go every year for a physical and the physical is no more than a half hour, and then you're you're pushed out because the next person has to come in. And I know that it's not nearly as thorough as it used to be. But that's kind of the way it is. So I've had to spend time learning a little bit more about my own body and bringing any questions and so on to the doctor during the examination, or I do have email access. But still, we you're right, we were not. We're not progressing in that arena, like we really ought to, given the kind of country that we are. Dr. Joe Sherman 23:45Yes, I think that's true. And I think because the technology of medicine has advanced so much and because communication as advanced so much has become so instantaneous. That that demands on all health professionals, not only doctors but nurses and, and technicians and, and everyone that encounters patients. The pressure and the amount of work that's now on our laps, has increased dramatically, especially in the last 20 to 30 years. And I think with the advent of the electronic health record, which is a wonderful resource as far as sharing information, but it's really designed for coding and billing and being able to document whatever you need to document in order to build correctly. It is not really designed to convey information about what you have found medically with a patient from one person to another. And this amount of information that is now coming to each physician, through the computer or through The patient portal, through messages through phone calls through referral demands through prior authorizations for medications and treatments, all of that comes to one place. And it's really hard for each physician to be able to attend to patients that are coming through the office, or the hospital throughout the course of the day, and also take care of all of this other administrative burden that's heaped upon them right now. Michael Hingson 25:30Yeah, and, and the other, of course, challenges as we have a society that is getting older with baby boomers and so on, the number of patients that doctors are going to have see is just going to increase. Dr. Joe Sherman 25:43Yes, so there is there has been a movement in our country for what's called population based health management, which is not so much being paid fee for service meaning doctors traditionally have seen a patient of a certain complexity or a certain time, and is billed a certain amount of money for that visit, we started to move toward trying to keep people healthy, and not so much trying to get people in the office to see them again and again and again and again and Bill each time, but instead to get their overall health in line. So trying to look at the whole patient and try to prevent illness and also manage chronic illness well, whether they come into the doctor's office or not. And that's really what we've been trying to move toward. But again, like you mentioned, the politics of trying to get there has been a challenge. So we find ourselves stuck in between two different systems of healthcare. Michael Hingson 26:55What do you think about this evolving concept of telemedicine? Dr. Joe Sherman 27:00I think telemedicine is amazing. I think that it has improved access tremendously. I think there are limitations to telemedicine. And I think that those things are, again, when you look at trying to get through the course of a day one medical provider, whether it be a physician, a physio, physician's assistant, nurse practitioner, trying to get all the work done for the course of a day. If you have to be attentive to who comes in the office, who then appears on the computer and then go back and forth and do all of these different things. It's just one more thing to be concerned about and worry about. However, I do know several physicians who have increased their flexibility, their amount of time they can spend with patients and are very pleased with the way telemedicine has opened those gates. So again, I think technology used appropriately and constant vigilance about how many people and what talents of people and skills are needed to handle all the information and work is that's something that we really need to keep an eye on and do a better job at managing Michael Hingson 28:27and a physician get as much information from a telemedicine visit or a tele visit as you can from having a person actually coming into the office? Dr. Joe Sherman 28:42Well, it depends on what you're looking for. But I would say my experience being a doctor of going to doctors. I've been amazed at how little of a physical exam has actually done the course of visit. So I would say short of the physical exam. I think that a lot of information for certain complaints can be handled through telehealth. So I do think that that it's made tremendous strides. Mental Health, I would say has been revolutionized by telehealth. My wife is a psychologist, clinical psychologist therapist. And ever since the pandemic and the lockdown she does predominantly teletherapy now it's challenging. It's challenging to look at a computer should I much prefer the old fashioned way of adding a three dimensional being in front of me. But But still I do think that it has improved access for several people. Michael Hingson 29:51I guess I'm a little bit of an oddity compared to some because I'm I'm so used to working some in a virtual world but also not looking at people that talking to people on a computer never bothers me. Now I do a lot of traveling and speaking today. Or I'm, I have been, and we're ramping it up again after my wife passed in 2022. But I like in person visits for doing speeches because I can actually hear more of the audience reactions, as I'm speaking, which helps me fine tune a talk as I go along. And I don't get any of that, with being able to communicate on Zoom, because I don't get to hear audience reactions. What's fascinating in from the reason I said it, in part is, I've actually talked to a couple people this week, who can see, and who said the same thing, we really don't get to see the same level of interaction from doing speeches on Zoom, as we do from actually doing in person presentations. But I can see where the whole idea of telehealth and interacting over a computer can make life in some senses, perhaps a little bit better for physicians and certainly transmit the same or more information in the same period of time. Dr. Joe Sherman 31:17Yeah, I think I'm all for improving access for patients, no matter what the modality is, again, as long as you have the correct and appropriate amount of people on the other end the handling the information and handling all of the requests that are being made. Michael Hingson 31:41Well, we've been kind of deviating from some of the stuff that I know we you and I had originally talked about. So I like to get back to you a little bit you went through and you got your degrees? And then what got you into pediatrics? Or what did you go from there? Well, Dr. Joe Sherman 31:56I think when I entered medical school, I was really drawn to a few different professions. One was medicine, one was teaching. And the other was counseling. I really enjoyed all of those types of interactions and relationship based professions. And as I went through medical school, I always loved kids, I always loved working with kids. And so I had my eyes on pediatrics the whole time. And I remember going through medical school looking for role models, looking for somebody who was a teacher and attending physician, someone who's in practice in the community, where I could look at that person and say, I can see myself doing what they're doing. I can see myself in them. And that happened finally with pediatrics. And I realized that I could do counseling, teaching medicine, all through pediatrics, I can counsel parents, I can teach students and residents. And I can use the knowledge and skills that I've learned in order to care for patients. And so that's what drew me toward pediatrics. That and that I can be funny, and I don't have to be serious all the time. When I see patients throughout the course of the day, that always helps. Michael Hingson 33:27Yeah, I mean, it is just no fun to have to be serious all the time. People don't always get that about me. But I think there's a lot to be said for having a sense of humor in a positive way. And as I tell people when we talk about them coming on the podcast, the only rule is we got to both have fun. So if you're not having fun, you got to say so so we can fix it. But we have to have fun otherwise what good is life? Absolutely. Dr. Joe Sherman 33:56And what other medical specialty allows you to dress up on Halloween with whatever else you want to dress out and and go in and take care of patients. And so as a resident in pediatrics, we always came into the hospital dressed in costumes. And so that's that was always good time. Michael Hingson 34:17What was your favorite costume? Dr. Joe Sherman 34:19Oh, I think one of my favorite costumes was one of the residents dress as a baby and complete with just a sheet on as the diaper as in the baby bottle and baby bonnet and the whole deal. So that was one of my favorites. Michael Hingson 34:38Did he talk baby or she talked baby? Just checking. Dr. Joe Sherman 34:44Yeah, a little bit of everything. But it was just it's nice to be able to accommodate kids and parents at the same time. Parents reacted well to that too. They usually do because they want the bad As for their kids, yeah. And I think that anything that makes their child feel more comfortable, then they're in favor of, Michael Hingson 35:09will you have, you've traveled to various places, and practice still all over the world? Have you ever gotten tired or had real burnout from doing a lot of the medicine stuff or just dealing with people all day? Dr. Joe Sherman 35:27You know, I have to say that I've been fortunate in my career to have had a variety of activities through the course of my jobs. Each job that I have had, I've been able to see patients teach residents and medical students participate in community activities and child advocacy activities. So that having that type of variety of activities has really sustained me in my career. And part of that has been experiences internationally. I was fortunate enough during my residency to spend a month in Bally's. This was in 1988, on the border of Guatemala, and Belize. And that's when I started to realize that medicine, healthcare in other countries is just not the same. And it's just fascinating to see how culture culture influences health care, and, and trying to learn from living in another country, especially a low to middle income country that were, you have to use more of your creativity, and more of your people skills to try to, to try to help as many people as you can. So ever since that first trip to Belize, I was hooked on international health. And so throughout my career here in the United States, mostly combining teaching residents in pediatrics with bringing them to the community and seeing where their patients and families live. I've always combined my work in the US with trips abroad, whether they be short term, one month at a time, or long term, we, my wife and I moved to Uganda for two years and work there doing HIV prevention from mothers to infants. And later, after we had our own children, we moved to Bolivia. And we lived there for four years, working with a mission organization, and getting to do a variety of activities, as well as living within the community that we were serving. So that's always been a major part of my medical career. Michael Hingson 38:10Have you ever experienced any kind of burnout or just being overwhelmed? Dr. Joe Sherman 38:14Absolutely, absolutely. I would say I changed jobs, as some people would say fairly frequently, I never had one job the same job more than five years. Some of those moves, most of them were for other opportunities, or because of a plan that our family decided to, to move to another country, something like that. But I have to say that I have also had jobs, where the amount of work and the amount of responsibility I took on for myself became overwhelming. And I have the kind of personality that wants to fix everything for everybody, and try to make everything right for everybody. And that is a prescription for burnout. We don't learn in medical school or medical training, how to take care of ourselves, we learn how to take care of other people. And so when we don't do that, and we don't do it, well, then we lose the ability to take care of other people because we have no fuel in our own engines. So I learned the hard way I burned out, became very anxious ventually depressed, had to step away completely from medicine for a while until I was able to rediscover all of those values, all those things that brought me to healthcare and and really drew me in which was predominantly the relationships and we're Working with other people on a medical team and sharing the load. And I discovered that for myself, and now, I try to help other physicians to discover where they are really passionate in healthcare, where it is that they can bring who they are to what they do bring their soul to their role as physicians, is that kind of why you're most of my time to do now? Michael Hingson 40:26Is that kind of why you went into the whole idea of coaching? Absolutely, Dr. Joe Sherman 40:29absolutely. Facilitating retreats for physicians so that they can get away and spend the time reflecting on why they even went into medicine to begin with, as well as working one on one with career discernment. And trying to decide if where you are is the best place for you. And if it's not, then what you need to change externally and internally, in the way that you approach your job and your work. Michael Hingson 41:03Of course, that also has to be something that's done in a non judgmental way, because so often, we just always like to try to fix blame or blame someone or something for something. And that just doesn't help. Dr. Joe Sherman 41:19No, I think that one of the greatest challenges for me, shifting from being the physician and treating patients, to being a coach is to let go of having all the answers to let go of having that prescription that of knowing exactly what's needed in the situation. Instead, I spend more time, inquiring, questioning, challenging, but realizing that the true creativity and wisdom comes from within the client I'm working with. So that is a challenge for me. And I work on it and continue to grow myself in that ability to attend to people without wanting to have the magic answer all the time. Michael Hingson 42:10Yeah. Well, and you're right. And my understanding of coaching has always been that you're asking questions, and you're trying to guide the client to discover the answers, because it's not your job to have the answers but to help people find the answers for themselves. Dr. Joe Sherman 42:31Exactly, exactly. And I think this is a challenge when I coach physicians, because many of them come to me wanting answers. And the temptation is to say, just do what I did. But I know that when it comes to medicine and a career in healthcare, I was the exception. I was the strange, odd ball. I so I don't expect anybody to follow in my footsteps, I think that would be a wrong choice. I think. Instead, it's important for me to help people discover their own path. And to do that, in a humble and open minded way, way that is open to self awareness and personal growth. Michael Hingson 43:23How has COVID changed all of this and how you deal with people, what physicians are facing and so on. I mean, I'm I know, it's been very stressful. And during the height of COVID, thusfar. Physicians had to be incredibly overwhelmed. And the ones who especially were the caring, most caring ones, it had to hurt a lot. But I also suspect that it just numbed a lot of people who cared. And they just kind of had to go through the motions and do what they could. Dr. Joe Sherman 43:58I think our experience of the COVID pandemic is very complex. And I think in some ways, all of the ills that our healthcare system was suffering. were revealed the curtain was pulled back, and people could see wow, you know, we weren't prepared for this. We already have a a staff of health professionals that were already burned out, we're already kind of operating on fumes and we push them even farther. And, for me, I still hold out hope that we're still examining that experience and realizing that we need to change things that we need to attend to the health and well being of our health care providers as much as we do our general population of patients. But I feel like so many people are traumatized that they feel like, let me just get back to something I called normal before. But what we're really looking for as a new normal, what we're looking for is post traumatic growth, not post traumatic stress, or just returning to the same old ways, really need to learn from our experiences, on a micro level, on a personal level, and on the systemic level. Michael Hingson 45:32I know, after September 11, I kept hearing people say we got to get back to normal. And I never liked that. And I realized and then started including it in speeches, normal will never be the same again, we can't get back to the same normal or the same thing will happen again. Normal will never be the same again. And it's just as true with COVID. You can't go back to normal, what's normal? Dr. Joe Sherman 46:01Yeah, I mean, that's, I think, I think forever, people want to forget, they want to put that out of their minds and out of their out of their thoughts. But it's there, that experience is there. We were traumatized. I know, my kids were in school, throughout that entire time. They were traumatized. They, they had to change their entire way of going to school. And it was it was challenging as parents is for kids and for everyone involved. Yeah. Michael Hingson 46:38And the reality is change is something that happens all the time. We we, we don't like change. But we keep saying it's all around us, but we still don't like it. And the reality is, it's I think that the COVID offered us a lot of opportunities if we learned how to take them. Dr. Joe Sherman 47:02Yes, they did. And I think I think we advanced in a lot of areas. But I feel like there are still several areas that we really, really need to take a hard look, I think right now, what's happened as a result of COVID is the acceleration of fuzziness, physicians and other health care providers leaving their professions. And we're going to go through and have are currently going through a severe health care provider shortage. And I know that people are starting to realize more and more when they try to call their doctor's offices and there's no one picking up the phone. It's because there's nobody home people have left. And it's hard to find people to replace physician, the nurse practitioner, Pa who has built up a practice and really has become skilled at what they do. It's better to try to provide the support they need to sustain them to keep them there. So that patients do have somebody to call somebody to see them when they're sick. Michael Hingson 48:17What do you see is what we should do to better help and deal with the health of physicians? And I'm, I guess, as part of that, I would also ask, What can we as patients do to help that process? Dr. Joe Sherman 48:34I think that this is a great question, because my belief is now that until there's a patient uprising, and that patients, including those in government, start to realize that their own health care is being compromised, that we're not really going to make significant changes. I would say that there's changes that need to be made on a systemic structural level, organizational level, as well as personal changes that need to be made with each physician with each health care professional. I think personally, we need to take better care of ourselves. We need to be able to advocate for ourselves and to really be self compassionate, to let ourselves be less than perfect to let ourselves walk away from situations when we are exhausted and not try to overdo it. And to come up with methods of balance of choice for ourselves, set boundaries that we haven't set before structurally and organizationally. There is too much work to be handled by one person or the few people that do it. If you are in an in a corporation in technology, and you had developed and invented some new technology then You would have a whole crew of people around to try to take care of all aspects of that new product. Because now you do things a different way you've invented something different. So you need people who are specialized in those areas. Instead, in healthcare, we have the same kind of people handling so much more work. And it cannot all be done. For each physician seeing patients throughout the course of the day, there needs to be a person completely dedicated to handling all messages that come in all requests for referrals, for consultations, for prescription refills, and all of that, because the physician needs to be attending to patients that are there during the day. We also need people that are able to be experts and billing and coding and all of the things that the electronic health record is calling us to do. And we need to have flexibility and the amount of time that we have to spend with patients, it can't be this cookie cutter schedule, that gives the same amount of time for somebody with multiple complex illnesses, as we do with someone that has a very straightforward respiratory infection. So these are some of the changes that I feel we really need to make to catch up to where we are in the business of healthcare right now. Michael Hingson 51:26Are we making those changes? Are we making progress? You Dr. Joe Sherman 51:31know, very, very slowly and in small ways. When it comes to health care, now the business of health care, it's still the bottom line. It's still how much are you taking in compared to how much you're spending. And I would say, when you think about programs that make the experience for physicians and other health care providers, more tolerable, or even fulfilling, it ends up being last on the list. So I feel like there needs to be more pressure in this area. And that's where patients can help they can become advocates for their physicians for their providers, and try to ask, on a personal level, when next time you go in for health care, how are you doing? How are you holding up? How are you dealing with all the pressures that are on physicians these days, just inquiring, and knowing somebody cares about us is helpful. So I think that that's one small step people can do. Michael Hingson 52:42And I think it makes sense. You know, the personal relationship is a two way one. And so we need to care about our doctors, as much as we want them to care about us. It has to be a two way street. And again, hopefully we can do things to help make life more fun for them. I know for me, I have the advantage. When I do go visit my doctor even heard the fiscal physical every year, I take a guide dog with me, so he gets a dog fixing anybody in the office gets a dog fix. So we're, we're very popular when we go in. Dr. Joe Sherman 53:19That's great. That's great. Michael Hingson 53:20We're gonna have Dr. Joe Sherman 53:23little dog fixes in every office. Michael Hingson 53:25Well, and and the director of medicine, where we go discover this and so there's a mandate that we need to let him know whenever we're going to come in so that he can can also come in and he'll stand in the doorway and won't let us out until he has enough of a dog fix. So it's really kind of fun. You know, and who can complain about that? I'm certainly not going to sites that's the dog loves it. Dr. Joe Sherman 53:56That's fantastic. Personal Touch. That's great. Yeah, Michael Hingson 54:00I think it's it's something that you know, we need to do more of their people to and it I'm I'm of the opinion that there are so many people who do thankless jobs, I love to tease TSA people when I go through airports, and work to make them smile, because they don't get nearly enough of that. And mostly, I'm pretty successful. There are a few people who take themselves too seriously. But mostly we can do pretty well at it. And I can make people laugh like they'll they'll ask me for my ID and I say things like Well, why do you need mine? Did you lose yours? Or might have if I were a kid, I'll wear a mask usually and they'll say I need to see your ID and I said What good is that gonna be I got a mask on. You know? We have fun with it. Dr. Joe Sherman 54:46That's good. It's good. It's always good to keep up the spirits. Yeah, Michael Hingson 54:51well, I got I love to laugh at it too. So it works out well. You know, in in this New Post COVID world I guess there are a lot of things are changing, I guess it's really fair to say maybe the real, really maybe the question to ask is, do we have a post COVID world? Is there ever going to be a post COVID world, Dr. Joe Sherman 55:15I think, in talking to my physician clients who are in hospitals, right now, they say that, across the United States, the wards are packed with COVID patients. And it's back, it's here, it's never left. There are different variants of COVID that are present. Immunization helps decrease the complications tremendously. The hope is that COVID will become another respiratory virus, like RSV, valenza, that we just deal with each year. As long as we keep vaccinated and keep up with those boosters, then I believe that that will decrease the amount of death and serious illness that we see from COVID. Michael Hingson 56:09Do you think that we're at some point, going to have a, I don't know, I guess it would be a live vaccine or a more traditional type vaccine that may help to do more to actually cure it, as opposed to just cutting down symptoms? And I'm man, I will say right off, I make sure I get vaccinated every chance I get. Dr. Joe Sherman 56:32Yeah, I think each, each bacteria or virus that we have immunizations for are different. And so these respiratory viruses, such as influenza, COVID, they change so much, and they, they have so many variants, so many different mutations, variants, whatever you want to call it. So unfortunately, there's not one shot fits all certain bacteria that's different, or with other viruses like varicella, or herpes, or other things, other viruses that don't tend to have as many variances of a wide variety. But as we are right now with, with COVID changes so much that we're most likely going to have to have a different vaccine every year. Well, Michael Hingson 57:34I think it is absolutely amazing that we got the mRNA vaccine so quickly. And I know artificial intelligence, as they call it had something to do with helping with that. But it does say something about what we can do that we did get some backs on the vaccine so quickly. And I really wish some people who keep spreading conspiracies about oh, it's not really a vaccine, they're putting little radio monitoring devices in us, you know, and things like that would just stop that. It's it's doing such a disservice to everyone. Dr. Joe Sherman 58:12Yeah, I agree. I think, unfortunately, there's a lot of mistrust within the healthcare system. And people have reasons to not trust. But I do think that that people who do spread false information that can be very dangerous. Michael Hingson 58:31Talk about having fun every time I go in for a vaccine. As soon as they give me the vaccine, I'll reach over if I have it in my right arm, I'll reach over with my left arm and slap my hand over the bandit and said, Oh, wait a minute, there's one that's trying to get away. Let me get it. And, you know, again, they think they get it in they laugh. Actually, one person wasn't sure what I meant and said there is no conspiracy. I said no, you missed the point. But, you know, I have had and my wife had no problems in dealing with the lockdown. She had rheumatoid arthritis. So it was an autoimmune thing that also made her more susceptible to such things and we were blessed at not getting COVID and and very glad to keep it that way. And you know, she passed just because she was in a wheelchair her whole life and her body just slow down and we lost her in 2022 so it's me and a dog and a cat. And none of us get COVID and we we don't mind being in the house so we're good. But I do I do get to travel now when I can find speaking engagements and I'm we're doing more of that. And I also travel on airplanes with masks. I don't see a problem with it. Dr. Joe Sherman 59:46Yeah, I think seeing more and more people doing that routine. Michael Hingson 59:49Yeah. Yeah, I mean, it works. Yeah, so it makes perfect sense to do. Well, how do you see Um, the whole evaluation process of what's happening in medicine, you know, going forward, what what are the major improvements that you think we will be seeing that will help mental health and everything else? Dr. Joe Sherman 1:00:16Well, wow, mental health, you just opened up a whole nother? Yeah, I know. But I would say, you know, we destigmatize mental illness as a huge goal that we need to do. And it the way life presents itself now is extremely stressful, and we all need support and help. Our brains were not, were not created to deal with such a flood of information constantly, and trying to sort all that out and it can become overwhelming. So I'm hoping that we can approach things from a compassionate, open minded point of view, to try to take care of everyone, both the health care providers, as well as the people that need treatment, and across the board the entire population. And that's really the direction that I'm hoping we all move toward. Michael Hingson 1:01:23I think we have to, we have to do something. And you know, because the flow of information isn't going to slow down. Exactly. You know, we have been doing this for more than an hour. And we could go forever. But I would like to ask if we went ahead and stopped. But could we do another one and continue this discussion? Would you want to do that? I'd be willing to do that. Sure. Yeah, Dr. Joe Sherman 1:01:51I'd be happy to, Michael Hingson 1:01:52then I suggest let's go ahead. And I want to thank you for being on unstoppable mindset, I think it will be absolutely fun to do more of this. And I'm always fascinated to, to be involved in these discussions. And, and I think it's, it's great to learn, I learned a lot and want to continue to do that. So I think it'd be fun to have another one. And I believe that people listening will agree. So I want to thank you for coming on. And I want to also just thank everyone for listening. If people want to reach out to you, how can they do that? 1:02:24Yes, they can check out my website, which is Joe Sherman md.com. That's my name, Joe Sherman, m d.com. And if you want to reach me directly, you can email me at Joe J o e at Joe Sherman md.com. And you can also schedule if you are a physician health professional, seeking help or support through coaching. You can schedule a consultation with me for free directly from my website. So I welcome any inquiries, or anyone out there that believes that they are struggling as a health care provider and needs support. I Michael Hingson 1:03:13don't know whether my cat would acknowledge that she could probably use some help in doing one thing or another. But she she thinks she's the boss. So I guess we have to contend herself with that. Dr. Joe Sherman 1:03:24One, too. Yeah. Well, boss got Michael Hingson 1:03:26Yep. Oh, yeah. Oh, this one's acuity. She yells at me when she's hungry, and I have to go pet her while she eats. So she's pretty funny. But I do want to thank you for being here. And I want to thank you all for listening. Reach out to Joe. I'm sure that he has a lot of other kinds of things he can talk with you about. And if you are a physician or related in any way to that business, I have no doubt that Joe is a person who can assist a lot in dealing with questions and issues and everything else under the sun regarding all of this. So thanks for for doing it. I want to say again, thank you all for monitoring us and listening to us today. I'd like to hear from you. If you would be willing to feel free to email me with any thoughts or questions or comments, you can email me at Michaelhi, m i c h a e I h i at accessiBe A C C E S S I B E.com. Or go to our website www dot Michael hingson.com/podcast. And Michael hingson is m i c h a e l h i n g s o n.com/podcast. Most of all, we'd love it and really appreciate it if you give us a five star rating here on unstoppable mindset. So give us a rating and we'd love your reviews. And I've mentioned it a few times and I'll say it now at the end. I do travel and speak talking about teamwork and trust and inclusion and diversity and of course telling my story of escaping from the World Trade Center on September 11. And if you're looking for a speaker, please reach out love to hear from you. But once again, Joe, I want to thank you for being here and we will definitely set this up and do another one. Dr. Joe Sherman 1:05:06Thank you so much, my god enjoy Michael Hingson 1:05:13You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com . AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

View Details

Our guest this week, Shawn Smith, is a 20-year veteran in the financial services industry. In 2015 he founded and still is the chairman and CEO of Dedicated Financial GBC. As he will tell us, he founded the company on a new and innovative model that is designed to do a much better job of connecting with those who are in financial trouble. While many people say they have a new and different widget or model, Shawn proves his worth and will show all of us his successes and he gladly discusses his leadership strategies.

Shawn never went to college and took a career path somewhat different than that of his parents and grandparents. However, as you will see, he made life and career choices that built him and his life philosophy to where he is today.

I found my time with Shawn not only informative, but I found his philosophy and thoughts worth listening to more than once. I hope you will agree.

About the Guest:

Shawn Smith is chairman and CEO of Dedicated Financial GBC. When Shawn founded the company in 2015, his vision was to create a new kind of commercial loan portfolio management company, combining both a new model of connecting on a personal level with those in financial trouble and a new corporate philanthropy model.

Shawn created a model of philanthropy that leverages the resources of Dedicated Financial GBC to improve communities around the world, donating both money and time to help nonprofits achieve their missions. Shawn and his wife, Stephanie, have focused their personal philanthropy on children's health and well-being, education, hunger, and other social issues.

Shawn believes that businesses have the greatest opportunity to change the world and Dedicated is taking steps to prove that. He has embraced a multi-stakeholder approach to leadership, serving all stakeholders including clients, team members, business partners, and communities-to make the world a better place. Shawn also inspires fellow business leaders to do the same by sponsoring client service trips to underdeveloped countries and ensuring that, at Dedicated Financial GBC, men and women are paid equally for comparable work.

Shawn is a 20-year veteran of the financial services industry. Prior to launching Dedicated Financial GBC, he worked at various companies where team members were devalued and unappreciated, thus fueling his passion for justice and equality in business as well as in life.

Ways to connect with Shawn:www.DedicatedGBC.comhttps://www.linkedin.com/in/shawn-r-smith-a2439241/https://www.linkedin.com/company/6383546/admin/feed/posts/https://www.facebook.com/dedicatedgbcwww.Twitter/DedicatedGBC.com

About the Host:Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.

Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children’s Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association’s 2012 Hero Dog Awards.

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Transcription Notes:

Michael Hingson 00:00Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visitwww.accessibe.comto learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.

Michael Hingson 01:21You are listening to unstoppable mindset, the podcast where inclusion diversity and the unexpected me love to say that Anyway, welcome to another episode today we get to chat with Shawn Smith. Shawn is the Co well is the founder of financial dedicated financial GBC. He's the CEO and he founded it back in 2015 going to be interested to hear about that and get thoughts about how the world has changed in the last eight years with finances and all that money is still money though. But anyway. We'll we'll worry about that right now. But Shawn, I want to welcome you to unstoppable mindset. And I really appreciate you being here.

Shawn Smith 02:05Thank you, Mike, I appreciate you having me on the podcast. Well,

Michael Hingson 02:10I hope it will be fun. And I think we'll we'll see what we can accomplish and what we can learn. Tell me a little bit about you kind of the early Shawn's you know, back when you when you started as a person and all that sort of stuff.

Shawn Smith 02:24Yeah, I would have what I think the world would typically consider be the exact opposite of your typical track to, you know, running a successful small business. So I grew up in the welfare system and high school educated, pretty rough upbringing. And really, it wasn't till I was 22 when I was able to get some good mentors in my life and kind of turn things in a more positive direction. And even that now has been basically a 20 year, you know, process of learning and growing from that. So I was raised, born and raised in Minnesota spent a little time in Southern California and Oregon, but mostly all in Minnesota, and currently married with four children. And yeah.

Michael Hingson 03:21So Minnesota you like the snow.

Shawn Smith 03:24I love the winter. I don't love how long it is in Minnesota. But I'm blessed to have to travel for business pretty regularly. So, you know, I get out enough to where it doesn't bug me so much.

Michael Hingson 03:36Yeah, I hear you. We live in Victorville California. So we get a lot of a call. We're up at about 20 150 feet above sea level. So it gets cold in the winter. It's the high desert, but below all the mountains where the ski resorts are and so on. So we get all the cold but we don't get the snow. So I'm not sure where the fun is that and this past year with all the snow that everyone had here in California and in the wonderful skiing that it was. We had two inches of snow one Saturday afternoon so the kids didn't even get a snow day from school.

Shawn Smith 04:13Yeah, I actually got trapped out in in a snowstorm in Park City, this last year in Park City, Utah, and spent three days trapped that Park City and snowboarding and waist deep powder. It was one of the most epic times I've ever if that was the most epic time I've ever read writing my snowboard and 30 years of riding a snowboard. So it was it was pretty amazing. It was it started right as I was driving over the past to get into Park City. And it literally stopped snowing right as we were driving to the airport. So it was a pretty incredible time.

Michael Hingson 04:47Wow. So they did it just for you.

Shawn Smith 04:52I'll take an hour right get it but it was it was truly amazing. It was one that me and my friends will never forget that's for sure.

Michael Hingson 04:59So Did you go off to college along the way,

Shawn Smith 05:03did not graduated high school from St. Louis Park High School and really was trying to find I was supposed to go to college either to be a mechanic or I was supposed to go into the Marines, that was kind of the two options that were in front of me out of high school. And my dad is a marine, my uncle is a Marine, and several family member members were Marines or army. And at the time, I just didn't feel led to do that. And I was really into cars. So I was gonna go to UTI to be an auto mechanic. And after interviewing auto mechanics, and understanding their lifestyle, what they did for work and how much they enjoyed it, or lack thereof, I decided I wanted to keep that as a hobby in my life versus, you know, career, which I thought was great advice to go interview people before you go in a direction, and make sure that their life has kind of bearing the fruit that you want to have. And so I ended up kind of trying a different jobs. And so I landed in some sales roles, because I had friends that were making more money doing that figured out, I was okay at that. And then at 22, I started really focusing on my own small business and built between 22 and 32, I built two separate marketing companies, both into the black. And then for various reasons, I ended up walking away from that went back into corporate America, into the financial services community, and ultimately found that to be toxic as well. And really think corporate America has broken here, at least in the United States, because I can only speak from that experience, I haven't worked in, you know, Europe, or Asia or anything like that. But kind of hit me across the head that the only way I was going to be able to do this was to do it differently was to be an owner. And so I've been asking this, you know, had people for the last five years asked me to start dedicated. And so if I said, All right, I'm open to it. And then one thing led to another and next thing, you know, dedicated was born.

Michael Hingson 07:13Tell me a little bit more about your thoughts regarding the the corporate America system being broken? I think that's true. I don't know whether it's for the same reasons as you but what do you mean bias broken, meaning think about?

Shawn Smith 07:27Well, the two big points I typically touch on that from from a high macro level is one, I think that corporations, you know, really do treat people as a number, and they put profit before people, and they put their own success before being significant to others. And what happens in that, then is that you have a jaded management structure, with maybe a couple of good eggs in there who are fighting a losing battle of doing the right thing over the bottom line and making money. And when the shareholders and the owners profit become more, more important, then people being able to do well, not just financially, but between benefits and flexibility and the way they're treated and etc. So there's a whole equation there that's kind of broken. And so I think, you know, that's been my focus is the chase, change what I'm chasing focus on being significant to my team, here and then to my clients into into local and global community and then putting people before profit, which means you're dedicated any business has to be profitable to remain in business, right? By the system of greed, here, at least again, in the United States. And you see this play out in so many things like the Wells Fargo stuff, where they're coming up with fake things, or, you know, you've got I my last company I worked for, I was a senior manager. And I remember being told I had to cut people's bonus checks, you know, three days before the end of the month in their commission positions. And meanwhile, they got the owner walking around in the new vehicles, he's driving to the new this, I'll study by this stuff, and it's like that people are so fried on that. That environment, and you know, it's leading to such a lack of purpose and purpose, a purpose driven life and our culture today, and I think that's leading to a lot of mental health issues and relationship issues and health issues. And when you spend this much time at work, you know, if it's not healthy, it's toxic. And I I believe that so that's, that's kind of my thoughts on that.

Michael Hingson 09:59Well, and that's kind of really what I'm thinking as well. So it turns out, we align a lot. I had a chance some time ago to talk with someone, he was the owner of a company. And we were talking about compensation, and specifically, what salespeople at the company made, as opposed to what the president of the company may. And I made the observation that when really good salespeople who outperform, if you will, may very well make more than the president of a company on any given year. And that should be okay. And he absolutely disagreed with that he could not see how anyone should make more money than the president of the company. And I, it wasn't a large company, but I was, was amazed at that. Because you would want your salespeople to be incented. To sell. And if they happen to make more than you Why should that be a problem. But nevertheless, that was the attitude that he portrayed. Yeah,

Shawn Smith 11:05you know, I definitely know individuals that would share his perspective. And again, I feel like those people are the same folks that are complaining how hard it is to recruit new members to their team to retain people have HR issues, and things like that. And, you know, I, every single one of our commission folks, and we have several different platforms within our verticals within dedicated that there's commissionable team members, and every one of those is uncapped. I've had team members make multiple six figures on our team that are high school educated, but they're hard working and doing a great job. And so I absolutely aligned with what you're saying. You know, I, and trust me that that has been discussed that on the on the director level and above. You know, when we get into compensation and someone feels well, how's that person making more than me? Well, you, you wanted to be in management, you wanted to serve others, but for our size company and where we're at and how well they're doing. I'm not going to rob from Peter to pay Paul, you're you're in a market range for your salary. I just happen to choose to do no cap commissions on these people. So when they knock it out of the park, right, they get paid for doing that. And so yeah, I'm aligned with you on that.

Michael Hingson 12:39Well, the other side of that is that, when you have that kind of a situation where you'd have an uncapped commission, and somebody really just blows everything away. In the long run, it's going to be a lot better for the company overall. And I would think in the long run people in management, while they may not necessarily make as much on any given year, in the long run, they're going to be viewed as performing better because they help their teams perform better. And I think that's the other part about the the whole team approach. What we also often don't do is recognize team performance nearly as well as we should. I know, there have been companies where when a team really succeeded at doing something who gets the recognition, the head of the team, even though the work may very well have mostly been done by other people on the team. And the the person who was the director of the team really wasn't the one that brought the team together, but they're still the director and they get a lot of recognition. It's just we do things in a very backward way sometimes. Yeah,

Shawn Smith 13:53I was 100% agree with you that that is consistently off, I think, again, through all of corporate America, and hence why our youth, right, that sub 40 Group especially, is just flat out tired of it and getting jaded towards corporations Corporation's. So you know, they're not wanting to put in the extra time or extra effort or lift an extra finger to help their neighbor or anything like that, because why when the corporation is setting such a poor example of caring about them, right, why should they care? And then I hear all this dedicated as not having a recruitment issue. We in an industry, our industry averages of 50 to 100% turnover rate. It's a very tough job. we've averaged 22% year over year now for eight years. Why? So we're have less than half of the lower side average for our industry. So we're not struggling with those things. Right. So you know, that's that just becomes a competitive advantage. I believe just like purpose driven businesses against other businesses in your space. So let the people who don't want to figure that out, continue to struggle, and hopefully more businesses will, will grow and continue to dominate the landscape that actually put their team members first.

Michael Hingson 15:16How do we get corporate America to change some of those things? I guess maybe another way to put it would be, in your view, what? What are the key things that one needs to have for success? In whatever they do when? How do we then also want you to answer that deal with getting corporate America to address it? In the context

Shawn Smith 15:40of that question, I think I would kind of go in a couple of different directions. But the first thing I'd say is, your question reminds me of there was a there's a story about a gentleman who went out and sat and decided I'm gonna change the world. So when I'm trying to change the world and got disenfranchised, because he couldn't change anything. So he said, Well, I'm going to change my country, and try to change his country to go and change. Okay, well, I'm going to change my state, try to change his state couldn't change anything, since I would change my city can change things, okay, I'm gonna change my family, at least couldn't change his family. So then he finally decided to change work on changing himself. And when he could change himself, then all sudden, he started to be able to influence his family for the better. And once he could influence his family, he learned how to influence the city and state and his country, eventually he changed the world. But so that starts with is changing yourself. People I think, especially in a corporation, a large corporation, stronger with leading from within is what am I going to be able to do here? And the question isn't what you can do there? It's a question is Who can you become there, because the better leader you become the more compassionate leader, the more effective leader, the more lovingly and they're more graceful leader, the more patient leader, the better servant leader you can become, the more your ability to influence John Maxwell says, leadership is influence nothing more, nothing less. So if you want to influence corporations, if you want to influence corporate, corporate America, your first focus, focus on yourself, and how that's played on and dedicated as I spent 20 years of doing things in my industry, radically different and personal growth, and leading with love and servant leadership. And what that's led to now is, literally two days ago, I got back from the Dominican taking a week to serve the poor down there. And one of the people on the team that I brought down there was actually the CEO of one of my competitors, who now donates on metric giving to Feed My Starving Children and has joined me down in some of the impoverished areas of around the capital of the Dominican to serve the poor down there. Well, how did that happen? It didn't start by me going to him first, it started in me and working on me. And my approach to changing corporate America is I'm just going to keep doing what I'm doing. And I'm going to keep donating, I'm gonna keep doing metric giving, I'm going to keep increasing team member benefits, I'm going to keep shining that light. And I still believe that business is a competitive sport, right? So it has become our competitive advantage. Because when, when you're doing things in the right way, you're going to not only retain clients or retain team members, but you're going to attract the right clients, you're going to attract the right business, you're going to retain it much longer. So you're spending less of your time trying to refill that funnel, you're just adding to and that's why I dedicated on average has grown by over 50% year over year with some years in the 100 to 200% growth range. And that so that became a competitive advantage. So I think the first part of changing America's foes focuses on the leaders changing themselves to the point where they can start influencing those around them, because people see something in them and the way they lead in their team and, and what they do in their work product that they can respect and admire and want to duplicate. I that's that's my thoughts. Yeah.

Michael Hingson 19:22I know that when I hired salespeople, and I learned this a little bit over time, but what I learned was that when I hired salespeople, the best thing that I could tell them is, I hired you, I hired you because I believe that you could do the job you sold me on the fact that you could do the job. So my job isn't to boss you around. Rather, you and I need to learn to work together to see how I can add value to you to make you more successful. In other words, how do we build a team together? In the end, the reality is, it was different with every single person based on what their talents were and what they A new and what they could do and what they wanted it when some people really got it, and we meld it well together in the synergy was wonderful. But the people who didn't get it and who weren't really willing to look beyond themselves to grow, didn't get it didn't succeed.

Shawn Smith 20:22And the people that care more about the title over the ability to help others, I really, I think we have too much positional leadership and not enough servant leadership. And that's really deteriorating the teams within our corporations. That's when people aren't being taught that the stuff that I've been taught by Dementors I mean, I tell people all the time, the, the cornerstones of my success are God's plan in my life, great mentors, and a great work ethic and the ability to work on myself and become better, right? So, but we're not taught that we're not teaching them. We're not teaching them to be a servant leader, or to have mentorship that helps you with your blind spots, or significant work ethic or overcoming challenges, things like that, right? We're so you, unless you have a great mentor or family member or friend, you know, you start to listen to what the world tells you, which is, get a better title, get more pay, or whatever, and you'll be successful. And then people find themselves miserable in that position, and then thus make those around them miserable as well.

Michael Hingson 21:39So you mentioned him, Where does God fit into all this? I mean,

Shawn Smith 21:43that's the cornerstone of everything for me. I mean, I was someone who was very much a non believer my entire life, I really, quite frankly, to stained people of any form of religion, in particular, disdained Christians. So, I was definitely saw on the road to Damascus moment when I became one at 22. And, you know, someone who comes from that position of really feeling like they're such a loving God, why would he allow so much bad stuff to happen to me and those I love and things like that, to all sudden running a faith based company and having that be the cornerstone of my family and everything that I do. There's a lot of seeking, and I think finding comes to the seeker if, if your mind isn't open, and you're not willing to seek answers, you'll never find them. And if you're going into the information, with with a bias of looking for what you want to hear, to just affirm what you want to believe, you'll stay stuck in that way of thinking forever. And, you know, there was there was, it's a process, but ultimately, the foundational verse for my life is Ephesians 320, which I translate that versus it says, purpose, it's his plan, it says power working with me, and I'm gonna give him the credit for all of it and anything that I do. And in doing that, I've been able to make business decisions, I've been able to treat people with love, and grace, I've been able to give in a way that is very uncommon. And I think the world needs more uncommon men in leadership and uncommon women to to stand up and really serve and love others. In an in an uncommon way, in a world that's really challenging. So it's, he kind of fits into everything for me, there's nothing he doesn't fit in into for me, and there's anyone that knows me knows that I'm going to talk about, I'm gonna talk about him, and I'm gonna talk about helping those who are hurting. In every conversation I have no matter whether it's a barista at Starbucks, or the CEO at a conference or podcasts with you, Mike, I'm gonna be talking about the same time repeat the same drum everywhere I go.

Michael Hingson 24:01And I absolutely endorse it. And I, I believe that, that doesn't really matter what religion and since because it's the same God. And we all if we go back and look at a lot of bases and basics from different religions, we see the same basic teachings. And again, it gets back to one of those things that we try to take ownership of something that we shouldn't.

Shawn Smith 24:28Well, we also try to assert that we know for sure, something that none of us get to know until we get there. Right. And so, you know, I'm very passionate about what you're saying. I don't I have no idea whether there's several paths or one path. I just know a path that has worked has been an amazingly positive thing in my life. That has been the greatest gift anyone has ever given me up. And if you have a free gift that you can give away, I'm at least open to discussing when someone else is open minded enough to discuss it. And, you know, to, I was just talking to Dr. And had this conversation I brought several about an atheist, I brought two other people that believe they're agnostic. And I said, look at you look at Jesus, he let the murderer in heaven on the cross after living an entirely, you know a lot of his life in the wrong way. But he believed, scientists believe that we're not going to know till we get there, but I would rather one put my hope in something positive that there is a there that there is a heaven. And if I'm wrong, well, I was there's gonna be nothing anyway. So I'd rather live my life with hope one. And two, clearly, God has demonstrated that he is willing to expose you to the full truth, even if it's at the end, and allow you to make that decision where you want to be. So whether you're Buddhist or Muslim, or Christian or Jewish, I believe that when you when you get to a point when you're transitioning the full truth, which I kind of believe, in some ways, like, everybody's gonna kind of be wrong in some ways. And everybody's kind of guilty, right? In some ways, you know, I mean, who knows, right? But you get full truth and in that you can choose where to go. And that's where I choose to put my hope. And it really allows me to see the world in that way of which I have nothing but love for all people from any form of faith, or people don't like fate, but it gives me hope. It makes me feel loved. I feel like I have a real relationship with God. I feel like I try to glorify God that loves me and blesses me and my family and those around me and allows me to go and be a blessing to the world where there's some really challenging stuff. And that's like what I just came from last week in the Dr. So definitely, definitely a proponent of supporting people in any form of faith that they want. And that will be a positive thing for them, provided it's grounded in love and respect for others.

Michael Hingson 27:03Just a couple of days ago, someone asked me, having known that I worked in the World Trade Center on September 11, and escaped with my guide dog was ill. They said, Well, do you feel guilty at all that you survived and other people didn't? Which goes back to the whole survivor's guilt thing? And my response was, No, I don't feel guilty. I don't know what the plan was, I don't know all the details of everyone who didn't survive. Did they get told don't go to the building that day? Did they not? Who knows? I know, for me, I never did feel that I got any message, not to go into work that day. We did have a thunderstorm that morning. And we usually have thunderstorms. That came right over our house at 1230 at night. And so I suppose one could say, well, that was an omen for you our message? Well, I didn't get the impression that it was. And frankly, I looked for those kinds of things. But But the bottom line is that I only know that I did survive. And the issue was and is what do I do with them. And I think that's the more important issue, which goes to what you're saying. The fact of the matter is that we all have some things we can control and a lot of things that we can't. And so I didn't have a lot of control over what was happening on September 11, a wife could have decided not to evacuate as soon. But I felt this is the time to start down the stairs and did and made it out. But the other part of it is, okay, so I made some choices, and then did survive. But, you know, ultimately, most of that day, I didn't have necessarily a lot of control over had no control over those airplanes sitting in the building, and any number of other things. And all I can do is worry about the things that I can worry about. And then I can actually have some control over. We spend so much time worrying about so many things that we don't necessarily have control of right. And you know, people are always going well. And you you mentioned that meeting we talked about you with Why does God let so many bad things happen? Now you if you look back on what did you learn from all those bad things? Maybe they weren't quite so bad, but also we maybe you'll learn better to listen. And you won't make those same kinds of judgments in the future. So it's all a question of where you go and how you deal with

Shawn Smith 29:48it. I think. Yeah, maybe outside bias to how you look at stuff and that Yeah, sure. Mine is still crazy for me to have met another person who was there as my car Follow was there, as we discussed. So I think that's one thing where I think it'd be very interested, if you two did one together on your podcast from the standpoint of the timeframe and the two different perspectives and where you were at, I think that'd be really interesting to see, you know, between the two of you, but he's got to he has a wild story, just the same as you do. For that day, and, you know, just anyone in my age bracket remembers exactly where they were that day. And what's crazy about it is, I made the decision to not go into the Marines. And because of that, I literally would, I graduated in. So when did change 2000? So right, so I graduated out of high school, in June of 2008, after boot had just come out of boot basically, better my, you know, first year and a half a service in the Marines. When that happened, and I went through a little bit of a form of guilt and not serving my country, I had several friends who did and you know, in that in that fashion, and I decided to believe that God had a plan for me. And we'll go from there. Apologize if there's any background noise, we were wherever big tournament the office, I think they just celebrated the, the winner of the tournament. So what's,

Michael Hingson 31:26what's the tournament?

Shawn Smith 31:27Let's take a bags tournament, you're throwing the bags in the hole. We did a whole bracket tournament through the whole day, once a year and do some prizes, and everything. So I was out in the second round. So I was happy maybe the second or last year I was out in the first round. So I was like, hey, all these I made for the

Michael Hingson 31:50second round, but improvement see next year, and next year will be better.

Shawn Smith 31:55Or third round? Yeah.

Michael Hingson 31:58I actually, maybe I missed it. But I didn't hear anything. So I think we're good. But, you know, I think that it all comes down to choices. So after September 11, and I'd love to meet your CFO, and it'd be fun to have a discussion. So if you want to set that up, I think it would be great for us to, to actually do something like that. But for me, I've always believed in it become clear since September 11. That, of course, we are the product of our choices, and I can trace my life back really far. And I can certainly trace how I got to the World Trade Center. And the things that that brought me there. And very frankly, I can say that I don't regret any of the choices I've made, some were tough. But I learned from them and was able to move on. And all of them eventually brought me to the World Trade Center. And after September 11. The very next day, actually my wife Karen, said, You know, you want to call Guide Dogs for the Blind, the the organization are always getting a guide on spring. And I said, Okay, why do you think I should? And she pointed out that there had been people from the school out here in California, who had visited us in the World Trade Center, and they're eventually going to remember that you were there. So I did call in among other people, I spoke with the director of public information. And Joanne Ritter, and she said, Gee, do you mind if I write a little story about you? And I wasn't really thinking, so I said, Sure. Go ahead. And then she said, you know, I'll bet it's gonna be pretty visible. What TV show do you want to be on first, and I wasn't anywhere near where she was in terms of this mindset. So I just, oh, Larry King Live. And two days later, on the 13th, I was invited to appear on Larry King Live the next day. And that led to a lot of visibility that led to a lot of people wanting to interview less about, it'll be about the World Trade Center. But a lot of people that started calling and saying, We want you to come and talk to us and tell us what we should learn about September 11, and so on. And there I was confronted with a choice. And in reality, it ended up not being a hard choice, because the company wasn't necessarily approaching what happened in the World Trade Center very well, they they were just taking the mindset and taking the position. You got to get back to selling you can't, you can't wait you got to get back to selling. People weren't buying. They were attending five, six and seven funerals a day. But the pressure from management was you got to get back to selling and that just didn't sit right. So as I tell people, I made the choice along the way to start selling life and philosophy rather than selling computer hardware. Because I also knew it would be a very rewarding thing to do. And then all the interviews with the media, as anybody in psychology will tell you, when you have an issue regarding yourself talking about it always helps answering all the questions that people have some of the most inane questions to the most sophisticated, thought provoking questions really helped me move on from September 11, which will spring move on, psychologically from you know what happened. I never did feel guilty. But still, you got to move on from something where your life was literally threatened,

Shawn Smith 35:31forced you to process it and work through it. Right.

Michael Hingson 35:36And so, again, it's all choices. And God was was for me, certainly a part of

Shawn Smith 35:44that with you on that. Yeah, I felt so out of the back. And, you know, it felt like those steps were directed for sure. And at the time, they shouldn't feel that way sometimes, but I am with you, I don't, I don't regret it. And actually, the pain that I've been through and the trauma that had been through my life has become, in my opinion, my superpower. And it drives my love for others, my empathy, my compassion, and my desire to help those who are in challenging circumstances like I was when I was younger, so that without that, I don't know where I'd be without have that, right. So it's interesting when you become older and wiser in a place where you literally start being thankful for your pain. Sure, doesn't feel that way in the moment. But as you get past and high inside, you see the fruit that it ends up bearing in your life. That's weird. I wouldn't wish it upon anyone. But I feel like I'd used it for the that which was meant to kill and destroy me use that for the good to help others. And sidenote, regret that little bit worse,

Michael Hingson 36:53what you need to do is to have a conversation with God to see if you can get around three minutes to

Shawn Smith 36:59get your own butt.

Michael Hingson 37:00Get you to round three next year in the tournament. Yeah, how am I gonna have the serious discussions here?

Shawn Smith 37:07I'm probably more likely to play him pray over my golf game getting better at me shaving off a few strokes than I am. begs tournament.

Michael Hingson 37:15Well, there you go. Yeah, you gotta gotta do what works? Well, you know. But I, but I do think that a lot of it is all about choice. And a lot of self analysis. And, you know, going back to corporate America, when we talked about the whole issue of profit, and making money, and so on, I wonder how many people who are just so fixated on the amount of money they earn in selling, that the company just has to be the end, all from a profit standpoint. I wonder how many of those people really take time every day and think about what they're doing, think about their lives? Just go back then, to self examinations, and see what's really going on with them. You know, people are always saying, I want to be happier, and I'm not happy when and you know, the question always comes back down to what's happening, right. And I think that becomes an issue that we also don't deal with very well, and understanding what happiness really is. But when we were talking about this making money, and so on, I wonder how much self analysis and real introspection a lot of people do.

Shawn Smith 38:29I think next to none, I think the world is teaching them to just continue to stay busy so that they're actually thinking about those things. And that's how I think time and prayer and meditation daily is in to really look at your life and what's going on in it and reflect on it and is critical. And instead we fill it with as much noise as possible drowns out that inner voice, let alone the voice of God in your life. So that's unfortunately with social media and, and just technology these days, especially it's, it's become really hard to get quiet and grow in that way. And that's a lost art for sure. Yeah,

Michael Hingson 39:15we don't listen to ourselves. We don't listen to our heart. And that's a serious problem, because we don't learn that our instincts and our subconscious mind which is, which is really part of and talking with God can communicate so much to us. My favorite example of that is playing Trivial Pursuit. How often when you're playing Trivial Pursuit, do you get a question? And an answer immediately pops into your head and you go, No, that can't be the answer. And you think about it, and you give a different answer. But it turns out that the first initial thought it was the right answer. And it is just something we don't we don't listen to ourselves very well, not nearly as much collectively as we should do. Also making me realize I haven't played trivial pursuits haven't either. Expanded, grew up playing that game. And yeah, it's a fun game. I still love Trivial Pursuit. And I love watching Jeopardy, it's as close as I get to it. But still Trivial Pursuit is a fun game.

Shawn Smith 40:20I kept trying to get I kept trying to sign my father in law. He's a very, very wise man and the key mentor in my life. And just the guy who knows every fun fact about everything. So I signed him up several times over the years trying to get him on Jeopardy, because I thought he crushed it. He never, never made it. But wicked smart guy is a professor at University of Minnesota for 40 years and had a law and finance degree from the EU and from Purdue. So that's a prime example. I didn't grow up with that, you know, my dad was a postal worker, and, and marine. And my stepmom was a postal worker, and my mother grew up on government assistance and child support. And so that was what I had mentored me on how to be successful in any area of my life, not just financially, but emotionally, mentally, spiritually relationally, right. And unfortunately, there was a big deficit in all those areas for the mentors I had growing up. So it really, really helpful and you change, who you're listening to, and who you surround yourself with, when it comes to taking advice. You

Michael Hingson 41:33strike me as someone who values mentors and having mentors in your life very much, how do you find good mentors? And what kind of a difference to they make? Or do you think that they make them could make for other people in their lives? Outside

Shawn Smith 41:47of God, I honestly believe that mentorship and who you surround yourself will be the number one reason for being successful in anything. I actually started a story recently where it was a couple of talking, and they were deciding whether they're going to get married. And they said say we get in a fight and you want and you want to invent the suit the man male asking the female, what you know, who are your three friends, you would call, she listed three friends. So who are you three friends and he listed three friends. He said, here's the difference. Your three friends, two of them are divorce one is single and living going to the club lifestyle. And that's where you're going to call for advice when your marriage isn't going right. All three of of the people I said I would call our people are, we've been married for over 15 years and show fruit in the tree when it comes to their marriage. And so, you know, what do you think is more likely to give you advice because in that situation, my friends are actually going to defend you to whereas in your friends are going to defend you and pay me to be the bad guy, right? So I think it's that way with mentorship is that you have to find the right mentors. And that takes a lot of work over a long period of time. Now I said that the most wealthiest man in the world was with Solomon and not because he had money and riches handed to me because he had wisdom, right. And someone who's in their 50s or 60s or 70s, who has fruit on the tree fruitful marriage relationships, fruitful career, fruitful finances is going to be able to give you much better advice and be a much more positive sounding board for your ideas than your friend who is not in any shape form way in the position of life you want to be at. And so you know how I my mentors are so key mentors, my father in law, that was lucky before that I had other business mentors that I went to, I had to seek them out a to see their time. Mentors are not going to chase you down for mentors chasing you down. That's probably because they have something to gain by working with you they have some angle right? But a true mentor does not. There's there's no benefit for them whether you succeed or fail, and they have fruit on the tree in the area in which you're asking advice for them or sounding your ideas to them. And another mentor minds a spiritual mentor is a grandmother who I went on my first trip to Haiti to serve the poor there a decade ago. And over the last 10 years I've cultivated a relationship where she's become like a bond to the introduction, one of the first people in this room have ever felt unconditional love. And that took years to cultivate that relationship. You know, I'm really big on therapy, dedicated pays for all co pays, any mental health co pays so that there's zero barrier to entry. So not only covers 75% of our medical dental vision, but we cover any codebase and we're trying To move the company to 100%, Mental, medical, dental and vision here, either this next cycle or the one after No, I think that would put a kink in that as we're doubling the size of the office again, so we got to factor that in as well. But yeah, so you know, hit that's like my head coach. Right. So now I've got a woman who is spiritually and relationally, with her husband. As an amazing coach there. I've got a great business coach, my father has also been married to my wife's mother for a long time, and it's a great coach there. I've got business coaching, I've got financial coaches, right. And so those were all called to be over the years, and I had to pursue those relationships, not think they're gonna come to me, and I never took them for granted, I held them with great respect. And I've never the other thing I see is when people get great mentorship, at some point, they reach a certain level of success, they also start to think they've made it. And that was easy. For me with my background, I think it's a little harder for some people, is to realize that I always put myself at last, I always put myself to realize I can always grow and become better than that. Man, I'm okay. I'm like a couple of things. The rest of it, I got a lot of work to do. And to think that my temporal worldly success is all on me is absolutely lunacy to me. Yeah, so surround yourself with great people, great friends. And I would go as far as to say is great family. You know, I attack toxic parts of my family that are not part of my life, and I love my family. And if that can ever change, I'm very open to mending that. But I I'm very, very cautious with who I allow in my inner circle and with my time, and are the people who are building me up and or tearing tearing me down? And are the people who are bearing the fruit in this world in their life that I'm looking for are the people who are doing the exact opposite.

Michael Hingson 47:13Tell me a little about your company, how it got named the way it did and exactly what you all do.

Shawn Smith 47:22So dedicated service, dedicated commercial recovery. So it was basically a commercial loan portfolio management company so that we would do collections repossessions, remarking we do that as a faith based company with a focus on treating people well both internally on our team and then externally, at some point, we decided to change the name to better reflect both an expanded scope of services in the in the commercial world, really commercial, any formal commercial, that commercial portfolio management, things like that, but also that we changed to being a general benefit corporation and the state of Minnesota that basically, that your mission statement on down in every charter within your organization is set up for the benefit of others, in essence, putting others before the corporation's success. And so we changed suggested dedicated financial GVC really to signify that we have an expanded offering as far as services go. So we do commercial loan portfolio management of working capital, FinTech, a lot of FinTech in the route in the commercial realm of, of revenue based finance. And we literally handle all the customer service and internal workout challenges. And then we transition that into a third party, commercial Collection model and then repossession remarketing nationwide legal services, and then we can prep portfolios for debt sale. So kind of cradle to grave servicing of that back end, again, with a focus on having an amazing culture within our team where people are put first and taken care of, and then really protecting our clients brand. And we've been able to do what no no one in our industry in the world has ever done. And I can say that with complete authority. We have over 1000 Extra over 11 105 Star Google reviews that are all from small business that we serve, that have given us a five star rating and we hold a five star rating overall average as well. And all of those are organic. All of those are ones that we've asked for from small business and serving them in such a way that they felt compelled enough to give us a five star review. And what the reward that is bad is that we continue to see larger and larger clients who care a lot more than anything about protecting their brand and the small businesses they've served that they're being treated right and no one out In our industry, they're all talking about how they're the hammer, they're going to do this, or they're going to do that and their work, you know, we work in a very dark industry. So we're really trying to bring some light to that and prove to the world that it can be done in a very positive way.

Michael Hingson 50:15Do you get attacked and picked on from some of the other folks in the industry?

Shawn Smith 50:23You know, I definitely think there's times when people try to slide some, some fake things in about us that get get deleted off the internet, because they're absolutely not true. And I think that, because we're a faith based company that that and we're not pushing that on anyone, you know, we have everyone under the sun, we're gonna dedicate it cannot be more proud of the folks on our team that are from the LGBTQ community, that are Muslim that are atheists, they are everyone has a seat at the table dedicated their love their care about their important, they're highly valued. And I would never tolerate anything less than that. But I would say that the other angle that people take are dedicated is that we're too soft on small businesses that have borrowed funds that are having a problem repaying back. Because a lot of the funding sources in the world and the people running that take it as a personal frontman, someone doesn't pay them back. And they want to crush that person, that business owner or something like that. I just had this conversation about three weeks ago with an owner of a funding company, I said, Hey, do you want to be rich? Or do you want to be right? Because yes, the person took out the money. Yes, they do owe you, but they're in a challenging circumstance, they're willing to work with us and do the right thing. Simply going and moving it to legal and suing them is only make you feel better. And the likelihood of you making any additional money is lower. In fact, you're gonna have to give me more money for doing that. Right. So I think sometimes that's another shot that you all were there a faith based company, there are two soft on people, we're going to be the hammer, we're going to be aggressive. And anyone in my industry that's holding that they're aggressive. First of all, those days are long gone. Second of all, you should care much more about being effective than aggressive because effective gets your money back and treats people and a human in a good humane way. Aggressive, just makes you a jerk makes people block your number and not deal with you anyways. So you know, it's an outdated, antiquated practice. So, you know, we take a little bit of heat for different things, but the proof is in the pudding. We're the we're the largest in our space. And we've done that. And in eight years, we have a 41 year old owner, with with, you know, I mean, with no college education, but a heart for helping people in Hartford doing business the right way. And I look at God's bless the business that way. You know, and I have competitors that we've flown past because of that, right? So clearly, we're doing something right. And we're doing it in a way that feels good about the way we've succeeded. So yeah, it's that how that answers that question. It does.

Michael Hingson 53:21I, a lot of thoughts come when I'm listening to your talks about all this. I remember years ago, I had a business that we were going through a really tough time. And we had put a lot of things in credit card bills in one day, I get a call from this guy at a bank. And he said, you know, you're way past due, I called you last week, and I said, we're working on it, we're gonna get it, but we're working on it. And then he comes out with this thing. He said, You know, you really ought to be sensitive to those handicap people who really have a problem and you need our services, rather than just being a guy that sits down there. And it's just talking your money and not paying us back when you can. And I just laughed at him. And I said, Why don't you come down here and sit with me and my guide dog? And then tell me that same story. You know, it's just crazy. People.

Shawn Smith 54:10Crazy. And I think the industry needs to be regulated more. I think it's absolutely atrocious. I actually would go as far to say that it's evil, the way I mean, it's just using a small business owner as an example. This really extends that role. But I want you and you know this when when you're in a small business, and you're struggling financially, that bleeds into every other aspect of your life. Yep. into your marriage. It bleeds into your interaction with your kids your energy level, maybe how much you're giving to your church or to nonprofits or except for right and bleeds into every Sunday. And you're down and you're struggling and you're fighting to call somebody up and basically start kicking them while they're down threatening them being overly aggressive. is evil to me. Thank you You would never do that if you came across someone on a side issue or just tripped and fell and broken their arm, hopefully be the Good Samaritan that would help them out to help them get to the ambulance or get help or call 911. Right. And yet, we have an entire industry that is allowed to just call people up and berate them and talk down to them and treat them as they are somehow less than us because they're going through a tough patch. I absolutely despise the way the industry is allowed to treat people. People often say, you know, we pay for Dave Ramsey's Financial Peace University for anyone on our team that would like it was a stepping stone when I was younger. I'm a big advocate, but Dave Ramsey hates any form of collector talks very doubt about the industry do it. Well, how have you do that and why this guy vehemently hates everything that you do. So now he didn't really hates my industry, and what they do not need, because if he knew, and he knew the way to do it, he would he would hold us up as someone who's the industry shining alive. And I've actually I've messaged him several times on their show trying to get on their show to kind of be a contrarian for our industry, and also be willing to completely agree with them. So yeah, it's it's unfortunate, and it's sad. The beautiful thing, and that Michael is that AI is going to change everything you're gonna watch. Over the next five years, I wouldn't even say 10, I was over the next five years 80% of consumer collections is gone and done by AI. And over the next 10 years, it'll be all but gone except for, you know, your handfuls of specialty reps for a very specialized situation. But it's on the horizon. And that will, that will eliminate a lot of that over aggressive, unfortunate human behavior. And it will be part of it will be technology a part of the vehicle, the industry will be reading what it's selling for the last 50 years, 60 years, seven years. So that's,

Michael Hingson 57:06I do hope it will make make for improvements. That certainly is part of what needs to happen. How do you mix God with business in a way that you can still deal with people who may have different beliefs than you?

Shawn Smith 57:21So I love that. I love that question. Because I believe that is being done so poorly in the world today. And you see the Chick Fil A's and hobby lobbies and these companies that hear that God has blessed them with a big business. And then you hear like the founder of Hobby Lobby saying that the number one thing that he learned is to never compromise. And like we live in a world with an extremely diverse way of thinking and believing a while I don't believe in compromising on my values. I know that 100% of my team, not one of us are going to agree on every single issue. So how can I? How can I run a business where there isn't a seat at the table for everyone? Right? And that everyone that the firt and here's why I'll just speak for a Christian standpoint is the hardest part about being a Christian, quite frankly, is other Christians in my opinion. Here you have it, and God grew up massive group of people that follow of faith as a system of faith in which when their Savior was asked what is the most important thing, he said, to love God with all your heart and to love others, you know, really simple message. And yet, I would go out on a limb and say eight out of 10 Christians that I know when I look at their life and I look at their interactions, I look at the way they do business or look at the way they go corporate America, whatever. And I would look for that being one of the most evident things in their life. I can't tell you that's what I would see. Right? I may see a hard worker, I may see someone who cares about being a good dad, they see someone as you know, very respectable career are nice things are great travel. But when people know me and around me, I want them to know that first and foremost, I love God with every square inch of me and I love them the same. And that's and that's when you have a foundation of that, that kind of love. And that's the most important thing not pushing a religion on anyone not pushing a belief system on anyone. Because not everyone can get down with, you know, God or Jesus or Mohammed or whatever it is right. But every face that kind of your point earlier in our conversation, it has a strong rooting in love for others. And when you create a corporation where that and you truly equip People before profit, then everyone's welcome at the table, then a diverse group. When you talk about these things we talk about all the time I talk to my team all the time, we do a monthly Scrum. And I just say, Listen, we all know we don't agree on everything. Right? But the one thing we can all agree is that we want to feel like we're loved. We're cared about were important. We're respected. We're treated with respect. So that's the foundation of dedicated the foundation isn't Christianity, the foundation is the actual doing of Christianity without having to stuff the actual title down folks through us. Right. And it just it works. I mean, I'm, is it perfect? No, you're from a Christian perspective, we're all broken in some way, right? People are people, we all come in with our baggage and our challenges, and, and we all have to go through this human experiences, then. And often they're extremely hard. That's why as a corporation, I love to lean into those things that truly put people first and you I think that it's more about less talking and more doing of what you profess to do your faith. And living that out in a in a in a corporate way, by actually exemplifying the values that you allegedly hold so dear in the book that you read? Yeah,

Michael Hingson 1:01:31the proof is really in the pudding of what you do, not what you say. I think it was Tolstoy who once said that the biggest problem with Christianity is that most people don't practice it. Most Christians don't practice it, which is so very true.

Shawn Smith 1:01:46Yeah, I mean, I was I was watching a debate between two well known media figures, and they were talking about how when this person had created a converted for Christianity being a Muslim and how, when they went to a Muslim country, they actually felt God and they felt a presence there. Where is it? When they're in America, they did and the other person? Well, I don't think America is really a Christian nation anymore. And I hate to say it, but when you look at who's running the country, and you look at what the media is propping up and who Hollywood's propping up and who we're being told you to make role models for our kids these days. It sure makes a strong case. And that's why again, it comes back to if we're going to change your world. It starts with us. It starts with less talking and more daily and loving others, especially when you disagree with them, especially when you know and I'll say one other thing in regards to your question is that I tell people look, is what you're doing bearing fruit in your life because anyone can profess that their way of doing things is great. Or this way you should be doing or this is the way it should be great. Show me the fruit. Surely strong relationships show me hope and faith show me joy show me peace. Contentment, right, show me strong finances right? If it's not bearing fruit, then I would challenge that maybe you got a little bit of insanity go on where we're doing the same thing over and over again expecting someday it's going to provide a different result. Right? And maybe you should check the fruit. A lot of wisdom that's not taught these days.

Michael Hingson 1:03:31Definitely. So what are your plans for the future? That's an interesting question.

Shawn Smith 1:03:36Because we all want to make plans right? We all want to have goals and things we want to accomplish and I find so much that we're always to be tackle What's your five year plan? You know, and what are the what are the next five moves you're gonna do? And there's like a million Instagram, Facebook, they know all this stuff out there. And meanwhile, it's such again, coming back to as a Christian, you know, be told don't worry about tomorrow for tomorrow will have its own troubles Don't worry about yesterday, because yesterday is already gone, right? My plans for the future are really to continue to stay focused on what God wants you to do in my life. Right now. What I'm trying to do is hone in my focus on dedicated and both the company that we're building, the AI that we're building, the team that we're building, and the amount of giving that we're doing, and simplify my life. I heard the best quote just out on this trip was down the Dr. Were in every person that you interact with. Make it a goal imagine that they have written on their forehead. Make me feel important. And I don't know what you've met like, I love it when someone makes me feel like I'm actually important to them like a matter. Sure. And what a life to live where you can live in a way where every person you came in contact with. You made them feel loved and important. Then like they mattered. And that's my plans for the future is Continue to weave that into business, continue to weave that into actually building an AI that takes all the data from dedicated, and how we interact with people and how we treat people and puts it into a computer that actually leads with empathy and sympathy for people who are going through challenges. And watch my kids go off to coach baseball games and see, you know, gymnastic meets, then we'll go to golf matches, and to go and serve locally, you know, and nationally, and globally to those that are hurting, those are in need. And just to live to shine my light, and whatever I do, and whatever God chooses to deal with that, I'm gonna let him figure that out, you know, I am honored, they asked me to be on the podcast, I didn't see the salad I did, you know, and it's just like, I'm on the board of a college even though a D two college, even though I've never went to college, it at the end of my four year term will be honored with being given an honorary degree, right, I didn't seek any of it out, that came to me. Not because I want that, or that was a goal. I mean, it wasn't even on my radar to be a goal or something I want, you know, right. So, you know, I want to create the best for my kids, I want to create the best for my team and dedicated and I want to glorify God doing it, but I, you know, I feel led to move in this direction, and allow God to kind of fill in what happens next, and to be thankful to have joy in the sun and to have joy in the rain. And that's, that's really brought me a lot of peace, being focused on being internally joyful, and peaceful, peaceful, rather than just trying to fight failed temporary happiness, and then to get to the next thing to get to the next thing to get to the next thing. So that would be my focus, and you never know where things will lead from there. But I know if I'm going to be able to change the world, it's going to start with me. So that's why I'm gonna stay focused is on me.

Michael Hingson 1:07:12And Let life be an adventure. And there's nothing wrong.

Shawn Smith 1:07:15I love the adventure. I see this with so many business owners where they're so far their destination disease, right? When I get there, that I'm going to be happy. When I get there, I'm gonna give back to others. When I get there, I'm gonna spend more time with my wife and kids. And man, I just try my hardest to say, you got to put yourself in a position to enjoy the journey. Enjoy the adventure. And if you're not, you need to change what you're chasing, start chasing being significant others start chasing, putting people first and watch that joy bucket, just Fill and Fill and Fill. And you'll experience a totally different level of peace and contentment, that the world and it's things and your next goal and your next notoriety or war will never satisfied. Like that level of joy, peace, you know, when you can do something for someone else, that they can never repay you for a level of joy that comes from that trumps anything you'll ever do in business or any any award or anything. So, Amanda, that

Michael Hingson 1:08:24I'm with you. I want to really thank you for all your time with being here today. If people want to reach out and maybe meet you or get to know you better, or seek out any of the services from the company, how do they do?

Shawn Smith 1:08:36You can email me at Shawn at dedicated GBC.com You can go on our website, dedicatedgbc.com. And you can follow me I'm very active on LinkedIn especially, again, my calling my passion. I believe business has the greatest opportunity to change the world we're taking steps to prove it. That's actually the mission statement of the company. And so I do public speaking events. I'm I do mentorship. I don't necessarily charge for and then if I can serve anyone in any way, as long as I'm being led to do that, I'm happy to do that. So I'm sure you put a link in the description below. You can check us out on Facebook, LinkedIn, Twitter, website, or reach out to me directly or look up dedicated financial GBC check out our website reach out. Me and my team are happy to serve you in any way we can.

Michael Hingson 1:08:36And that's as good as it ever can get. I certainly appreciate your time and your wisdom today and I hope that the people who are listening to us do as well. So I want to thank you and thank you all for listening. Love to hear your thoughts about our podcast today. And pump out all of our podcasts feel free to email me at Michael m i c h a e l h i at accessiBe A c c e s s i b e .com, or go to our website www dot Michael hingson Hingson is h i n g s o n.com/podcast. But wherever you're listening, I would really appreciate it. If you give us a five star review, we value that. But I do want to hear from you. We value your thoughts and your opinions and your comments. And for all of you and Shawn, of course, you if you know anyone else who you think ought to be a guest, I'd love to meet your CFO. Please let us know we're always looking for people who want to come on unstoppable mindset and show us all that we couldn't be more unstoppable than we thought. So just once again, Shawn, I want to thank you for being here and thanking you for spending the time with us today.

Shawn Smith 1:10:45Thank you, Mike honored that you asked me to and I look forward to connecting with Scott and thank you and God blesses you as well.

Michael Hingson 1:11:00You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visitwww.accessibe.com. AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

View Details

Morag Barrett was born and grew up in England where she had what she would say is a “normal childhood”. She climbed trees, rode her bike and did all those things kids do. After high school., she went into the workforce at a bank. Although she did advance in her jobs, she grew more interested in professional development and human resources issues.

She received a Master’s degree in human resources and changed careers from banking and finance to a more human resource arena. In 2005 she, her husband moved from England to Colorado, both for job opportunities. In 2007 Morag founded SkyeTeam where, at last count, she and her team have supported the development of more than 10,000 leaders from 20 countries and on 6 continents. She focuses on professional development and relationships.

Morag is the author of three books as you will learn. As you will see elsewhere in these notes, Morag offers free books to the first 50 people who request them.

I found the many lessons and observations Morag offers during our conversation to be sensible and practical tidbits we all can use. I hope you find them to be the same.

About the Guest:

Morag Barrett is a sought-out executive coach and leadership expert who helps leaders achieve outstanding results through the power of their professional relationships. At last count Morag and her company SkyeTeam have supported the development of more than 10,000 leaders from 20 countries and on 6 continents.She’s the award-winning author of three books: Cultivate: The Power of Winning Relationships; The Future-Proof Workplace; and her latest book You, Me, We: Why we all need a friend at work (and how to show up as one!). She’s been recognized by Thinkers360 and PeopleHum as an HR Thought Leader to Watch.Learn more at skyeteam.com

Ways to connect with Morag:LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/moragbarrett/Website: SkyeTeam.comAlly Mindset Profile: skyeteam.cloud/youmewe

About the Host:Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.

Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children’s Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association’s 2012 Hero Dog Awards.

https://michaelhingson.comhttps://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/https://twitter.com/mhingsonhttps://www.youtube.com/user/mhingsonhttps://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/

accessiBe Linkshttps://accessibe.com/https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBehttps://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/

https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/

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Transcription Notes

Michael Hingson 00:00Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us. Michael Hingson 01:20Welcome to another episode of unstoppable mindset, where inclusion diversity in the unexpected meet and we'll find ways to involve a lot of that stuff. today. Our guest is Morag Barrett. And she is a sought out executive coach. And she is also an expert on leadership and more important being prejudiced about such things. She is an author of three books and I know we're going to hear about those as we go through it. But I'm gonna let her talk about that rather than me spending all of our time doing it. It's kind of more fun to hear it some more anyway, so Morag welcome to unstoppable mindset. Glad you're here. Morag Barrett 02:03Michael meet who I know we're gonna have a fun conversation. Michael Hingson 02:08Well, that's the plan anyway, that's what we got to work on. Well, I'm really glad that you're here. Morag is in Colorado we're in Colorado. Where are you? Morag Barrett 02:18I live in a town called Broomfield so I'm down in the burbs just north of Denver and on the way to Boulder so I can see the Rocky Mountains when I leave my house, but not from the room I'm sitting in right now. But it's a beautiful part of the country. Michael Hingson 02:32It is I've been to Littleton I'm vice president on the board of the Colorado Center for the Blind which is a little tin so know the area pretty well. Huh? Well, why don't we start by maybe you telling us a little about sort of the earlier more ag growing up and all that stuff and where you came from and anything else that you think is relevant for us to know. Morag Barrett 02:57So what when I was a wee last? Well, you are the eagle IED listeners they will have gathered I have a bit of a an accent for those who are reading the transcript. It may not yet come through. But I am told that I have the hint of an accent. I was born in the UK grew just the hint just a weekend. But I was born in the UK and grew up in and around East Anglia, which is about 50 miles northeast of London. And I learnt childhood I remember climbing trees falling out into nettle patches getting into mischief. But halcyon days of just go out on your bike and don't come back until dusk. So that was that was the early days anyway, the first season of Morag Barret or Morag McLeod as I was then Michael Hingson 03:52Garrett came later. The asset It did indeed. Well, so you you grew up like it sounds like kind of a normal kid. And any any challenges or relevant things to think about growing up that kind of helped shaped where you are today? Or does all that come later as well? Yeah, I Morag Barrett 04:11think? Well, no, I think it all blends in. I think the reality is, though, when we tell it when we're asked about our own story, I know it is easy for me to dismiss it of that's boring. You don't want to hear it. Nothing. Nothing exciting happened to me. But in reality, I think more happens to us then we may recognize in the moment. And so I think the biggest impact as I look back on my life now is a woman of a certain age with my own sons who are now all six foot tall. So you can imagine where I am in my life cycle and a career that is 30 years old. Just to date myself. The biggest thing growing up that I didn't appreciate the time was my mom and what had happened to her because in the early 70s She had a brain tumor and was told that she wasn't going to live. And then the diagnosis changed to where you're going to live, but you may not be able to see you may not be able to walk, you may not be able to it was a full list of may not be able to use. And she did live. She did see she did walk a little unsteadily. But the the hindsight as an adult is that we never talked about it as a family, not once. And that whole stereotype British sweep it under the carpet, nothing to see here, maintain appearances in the house and outside the house. In fact, let's remember this, let's allow others to assume my mother might have a drinking problem, versus her speech and balance was impacted because of a brain tumor problem. The fact that we might allow the former over the latter just blew blows my mind now as I look back at it, but it also I can see how it shaped my somewhat risk adverse, maintain the professional image, keep everything buttoned up early in my career, whether that was in banking, or when I moved into leadership and executive development. Michael Hingson 06:18So do you think that's different in Britain, you then hear in terms of sweeping it under the carpet and, and not wanting to talk about it? Morag Barrett 06:28So it depends on what the it is. And I don't know that it's any different I think the reality is we all have, it's things that we sweep under the carpet or don't acknowledge, for fear of how others might react, maybe even for healthier of how I might react. I know it was very emotional. When I started to process this. Back 10 years or so ago, my mom passed away 23 years ago, from a brain tumor. But all of this, we have this inbuilt we're conditioned we're raised to Don't rock the boat fit into societal norms. Don't be different, don't mention uncomfortable things, because you'll make other people feel uncomfortable. And so that it varies whether you're in the US or in the in the UK varies from person to person. But what I've learned in the last decade is those fears of what others may think or how they may judge us are invariably inflated. And in some cases, in my case, imaginary. And I wish I just dealt with them sooner. Well, Michael Hingson 07:39and I would say the other part about that is an inflated or not. Maybe people often do feel really uncomfortable. I know there are any number of people, even some who are blind, but yeah, a number of people who are uncomfortable and very fearful about blindness, because they're afraid Well, I could become blind right on somebody who's blind. They don't do well. When whether it's blindness or or any other thing we have learned to fear the things we don't know a lot about. And that's so unfortunate that we don't learn that maybe we are looking at things a different way. Morag Barrett 08:20I couldn't agree more. I mean, it's that not seeking to understand that the curiosity that keeps us all trapped or separate. Because should I lose my sight? How do I learn to adapt? The fact that I think we know by now that blindness is not contagious, it's not something you're going to catch by hanging out with and socializing with people who may have. And that goes with many of the challenges that people bring. I mean, Eric shares my business partner in our book, you may worry about his struggle with depression throughout his life and mental health. And he is now way more open with us as to when he needs assistance when he's having a tough day or an up day. And as a result, we have grown stronger as a team because we and we understand we may not experience his lived life, but we have a better perspective from which to ask, and for us all to be better together. Michael Hingson 09:22And I would change something that you said a little bit. I think curiosity is great if we would only but be curious. Yes, rather than treating us as curiosities, whoever we are. Curious, be open. And the other side of that is that I'll use me as a blind person. We need to be open and be prepared to be teachers and it's easy for a lot of people. I just don't want to do that. I'm tired of doing that. But that's what we are and who we are. And we can shut down which doesn't help or or we can choose to be open and answer questions and help people better understand, which hopefully will help people move on and not fear things so much. Morag Barrett 10:11I think that ultimately is a two way street, you can't do all of the education. From your perspective, it'd be exhausting, it's unfair. It's just unmanageable. But so I have to step in and come closer to you, in the same way as you have to then be willing to accept maybe my inelegant questions or my, at this point, I didn't know better questions. But I will know after you've responded and clarified for me a different approach or a different perspective. Michael Hingson 10:43One of the things that I have the honor and pleasure of doing as I work with a company, our company called Accessibility in Israel, and excessively makes products that helped make the internet more accessible and more usable for a lot of different kinds of disabilities and persons with different disabilities. And I spent a week over there my first time in Israel, we were there two weeks ago. And there were a lot of questions about dealing with disabilities. And what to do well, not so much what to do and what not to do, but how do we approach different issues and so on. And ultimately, if I were to summarize, the week, it is, how great it was that people were willing to ask questions and even acknowledged that maybe they were making assumptions that weren't true. We were able to move through a lot of that. And it was so wonderful to experience that and have the opportunity. And I knew going in that I was there in part to do that very thing. So I chose to and I agree, we can't always be teachers, and we shouldn't necessarily try to go force ourselves into a teaching role. But when it comes along, we do need to recognize and deal with it. Hmm. That's kind of more of what I'm thinking. That's the that's the only way we're going to address the issue. Morag Barrett 12:10Yeah, one conversation, one interaction at a time. Yeah. It's Michael Hingson 12:15like you do you eat an elephant one bite at a time? Why don't want me to. Okay. But I hear you it is one conversation, one interaction at a time. So you went, you grew up, you rode a bike, you climbed trees, and did all those things that people do and probably spied on the neighbors and all that sort of stuff. Did you? Did you go to college in England? Or what did you do? Actually, I Morag Barrett 12:41chose not too. That was a pivot point. For me, when I graduated high school, I actually chose to go straight into work. And originally I was going to be an engineer. I did applied mathematics, physics and economics at high school. So in preparation for going I was the only girl in the class, you know, that sort of thing. And then the class was five people. I mean, it was tiny, but we would hang out. And I was going to be an engineer, I like puzzles. I used to do jigsaw puzzles upside down, Michael, you know, with the image, the wrong side, just because of the spatial awareness, which I don't know, don't necessarily have carried forward. But in economics, there was a chapter on how banks create money. And I thought this is fascinating. And I decided to go straight into banking. And I worked in the branch in might the town I grew up, and I did my degree at night school, because I decided by the time I graduated, I would have a have the work experience and the degree, or I could go to university and have a fun time and an OK degree, but I would lose the work experience. And so that was the decision I made and it worked out. And then subsequently, I went back to school and did a master's degree in HR and move from numbers into the leadership and executive development executive coaching that I do now. Michael Hingson 13:59Why did you go back to school and get a degree in HR? So you got one new stop? You got a bachelor's degree, but you never did get a bachelor's degree? Morag Barrett 14:07Well, no. Yes. I got the associate's degree got the associates to finance? Yes, yeah. And I again, at the time, I was not really paying attention to the difference between an associate's degree and a bachelor's degree. And to be honest, 35 years later, nobody asks anyway, other than today, which is lovely. So why did I do that? Well, because I thought I was going to be on that career path of the numbers side of what makes for successful organizations. And certainly, I can find my way around a cash flow forecast, analyze a balance sheet profit loss, or I used to be able to until the cows come home, but in the work that I was doing with businesses, the ones who'd come and say, Well, we're all going to be rich. We have this product or service lend me a million pounds. The ones that were successful and could pay us back were the ones I realized that didn't just have that great idea. They also invested as much cart time and attention in how business gets done, the people side, whether that's the people working in the company, the vendor relationships, or the customer relationships. But in the 90s, that was still the soft, fluffy stuff, it was still only just starting to emerge really as, as important as the numbers. And I went back to do my master's degree, knowing I was going to make that pivot into the people side, all while being a bank manager. So I had the pragmatic experience of running a business, whilst also now getting the book smarts around what does it take to to be a successful leader in what is now the 21st century? Michael Hingson 15:45So you decided volitionally, if you will, what you wanted to migrate some of the number side to the people side? Yes. What fascinates you about the people side, what made you really want to do that? Morag Barrett 16:01That despite however many billions of us there are on this planet, and how different people may assume we are from the get go, we're actually very much the same. And certainly in the NOW 20 plus years that I've been doing leadership and executive development with leaders around the world, it doesn't matter where on the planet you are, whether you're north slope, Alaska, working on an oil and gas drilling site, maybe down in Peru, working with a gold mining company, or working across Europe, with health care, clients, etc. It's the people issues, our the ability to push each other's buttons, the misunderstandings and miscommunications that get in the way of success, whether that's for me as a person or team or our company, every single day. And that's what I love is that the variety but the consistency of the problems that I'm helping others to solve, Michael Hingson 17:00no. And I would think certainly, it's a field and a world that by any standard is not as fixed as dealing with numbers, because with numbers you calculate, you can interpret. But then, when you start to go look at different economic trends, you get back to the whole people issue again, which is really what's the adventure? Morag Barrett 17:28Yeah, there's poetry in numbers, because there is, in theory, a right answer, or there is a style of algebra, you know, when you're doing resolving all of the equations, I love chemistry for the same reason and, and all of that. So I do love that. However, when it comes to the people piece, there is no one right answer. And everybody has to find a way that suits their, we use the word authentic too much, but their authentic self, their style, and bring it to bear in the context in which they're leading. So again, if I think about the leadership in North Slope, Alaska, where it literally is life or death, if I fall, it is a flight out to get to the nearest hospital. And of course, if the weather's closed in, it could be days, it could be weeks before that flight can happen. So there, it is very strict, you know, three points of contact to feet on the ground one hand on the handrail, amongst other rules that are designed to keep not just me safe, but the people who would have to take care of me if I have an accident. So it's much more directive much more strict. And this is how you will show up. But leadership and management pay in Littleton, maybe, for accessory or any other organization that you might be part of, it may be a little bit more hands off a bit more relaxed, or hey, you'll work it out. And it's just finding that right balance and knowing when to turn the dial up or turn the dial down, that differentiates the leaders we want to work for. And the ones where we just grown every time we see their name or email come in. The Michael Hingson 19:10other part about that I would say though, is take North Slope Alaska, most people would say, well, a person who's blind can't really work there. And that's the other part though, about people. We tend to lock ourselves into mindsets to ways of thinking without recognizing maybe there are other alternatives that may totally change or affect what we always start with so Oh, absolutely. Morag Barrett 19:40I mean, there's two sides to that. Michael, there's the I might typecast you as the finance person who happens to be blind, maybe we'll have seeing issues whatever. But it's only because I know you now and I don't know your backstory and your past career, etc. So being typecast by others, and therefore limited is frustrating. It's wrong. We need to break that model. But I think we also do it to ourselves. And I know only recently as I've started to regain my fitness, I went back on the treadmill telling myself, I'm only a power Walker. And now it turns out, I'm a jogger. And as of yesterday, I couldn't run on the treadmill. And I texted a girlfriend, I said, I ran at 7.3 miles an hour. And she came back going, Oh, my goodness, that's amazing. And I said, Well, yes, except it's context, I ran at 7.3 miles an hour, 30 seconds. So there is these limiting beliefs that are AI couldn't run. Now I am believing I can only run for 30 seconds at a time. So we'll see how I work on that. But then there are the beliefs that hold us back that others know you're no good with numbers. You can't be an engineer or you can't because you're a woman or you can't because you don't have full sight. And sometimes that's true, but more often it is. It's not true. There's a workaround, there's an adaption that we can do. That gives everybody an opportunity to thrive and flourish. Michael Hingson 21:16Worse. The other part of that is that sometimes it may be true because of the technology or the tools that we have developed today. I mean, for so far, yes. So far. So Roger Bannister, Roger Bannister broke the mold when he ran a mile in less than four minutes. And people said up until he did it, that it was a physical impossibility to run a mile in less than four minutes. And if anyone did, they would die. And then what 1966 I believe it was, he did. Morag Barrett 21:54And then about eight people followed, it's like when trains were first invented, and women couldn't possibly ride on a train because they would pass out. And if we go over 25 miles an hour, there won't be enough oxygen. So every time we push the envelope, I mean, you look at what's happening with AI and technology right now, it is both exhilarating and exciting, and terrifying. I was reading an article recently where electrodes had been implanted in a woman's brain who is paralyzed, and she was able to communicate, I think it turned out 70 words a minute, if you read that one, she could articulate words by thinking them at 70 words a minute, versus the eye flickering approach that she'd had to use, which was much, much slower. So the quality of life for I assume for her because the article didn't go into that must be better, because she can interact with those around her in a different way. And who knows how that will evolve. In the next few months, years, decades. Michael Hingson 23:00By recall, it's the first time that her husband heard her voice and it was her voice, which is the other part about it. And 18 years, I actually saw a news report, so I did hear her speak. And, and, and hear her complete sentences. And and of course, 20 years ago, 10 years ago, maybe even five years ago, we wouldn't have been able to see that happen. So there's no Rathod technology brings a lot to bear to make improvements. I mean, I love to talk about Thomas Edison invented the electric light bulb in 1878. Right? So what was the electric light bulb is its is I use it in terms of the Americans with Disabilities Act, it's a reasonable accommodation for light dependent people who need to be able to see in the dark. But now, some 145 years later, what we have is technology that makes light on demand available, basically whenever we want. Now, it doesn't mean although people would deny it, it doesn't mean that the disability of light dependents isn't still there. Because we can still have situations where there's a power failure and suddenly you you lose light until you go find a smartphone or a flashlight or a candle Morag Barrett 24:21to bring with the oil lamp or the oil Michael Hingson 24:25lamp. Right. But but the reality is that it still is something that's there. So I love to point out that everyone has some sort of disability and we need to recognize that and stop limiting some just because what they need is different than what we need. Yes, but we make assumptions and it's unfortunate that we do so often. It is something that we we need to deal with and grow beyond and you know, how do we do that? I it's it's so difficult and frustrating because so many people don't seem to want to change from whatever their particular belief system is. They've never learned to really think about maybe we need to grow and look at things in a different way. How do we change that? Well, it Morag Barrett 25:13goes back to what we said earlier on one conversation and one interaction at a time. And I think it's easy to find the naysayers. And the blockers. I mean, just this week, a friend of mine shared, there was an event here in Colorado, and our whole group of people turned up with the opposing view t shirt and stood up and disrupted the whole event. And it's just, we're gonna find those people. They're easy to find they're right, you just step out your front door. However, there are also the hidden gems and the people who are ready and willing to listen and do different and let's start there. Yeah. But also, I wish for many of these conversations that we could move more quickly from conversation to action. And start getting that momentum Michael Hingson 26:01is one of my favorite things to talk about in speeches that I give. And you may know, I'm a keynote speaker, in addition to doing this, and I love to travel and speak, and a lot of people want to hear my September 11 story. But I also do a talk called moving from diversity to inclusion. And I titled it that, because when we talk about diversity and ask people to define it, what invariably they talk about is, well, diversity means something to do with race or sexual orientation or gender. They never talked about disabilities. And so some of us take the position. Well, all right. So diversity is left out disabilities. But if you're going to talk about being inclusive, and you say, but we include people with different races, but you don't include disability, so you're not inclusive, you know, you can't have it both ways. But one of the things that I love to do when I'm giving those talks is to start out, but I'm gonna ask you tell me what you think a blind person can't do. And that's not a trick question. It's not a trick. Morag Barrett 27:07It's not a trick question. Because I thought, Well, okay, maybe not a brain surgeon. But then again, with robotics, you know, you're actually listened to it being there actually, is what he's blind. Michael Hingson 27:21He's out, there you go. It's out. But that wouldn't be the number one answer that you get. Morag Barrett 27:26Oh, tell me a joke that you can't do. Oh, they're not do like, Family Fortunes or whatever. We have to pick the of our survey 100 People said, I don't know. Tell me Michael then. So what are they go to because I'm still have the well, you drive a car. And most things if you can do that now, because most cars can drive themselves Michael Hingson 27:47well, but that's different than driving a car. autonomous vehicle. So that's true for everyone. But the reality is that there is a video of a blind person driving a car, with technology that was put on the car to transmit to him the information of whatever is in front of him and around him or her. So that literally a blind person can learn to drive a car, literally, like you do. And there's a video it's up, you can go to a website, it's www dot Blind Driver Challenge dot Ford. And you can actually see a gentleman driving a car around the Daytona Speedway, right before the 2011 Rolex 24 race in January of 2011. And again, the the technology was was there. So it's not ready for primetime. But the point is that people make assumptions. And I love to ask that question, because invariably, the first answer, and if not the first, it's got to be one of the first few but typically, the first answer is can't drive a car. And then you go to all sorts of other things from there. And the fact of the matter is that nowadays, technology has advanced to the point where there is a way to do some of those things that we didn't think we could do before and you talked about it with the woman who had the brain implant that allows her to speak, which is pretty cool. Yes, it is, indeed. So you know, we we really need to find ways to deal with getting over our limiting thoughts. And we do limit ourselves all too often. And I think we're taught to do that. And it's to unfortunate that that's the case. Morag Barrett 29:36I have a section in my first book cultivate where I talk about the trash talk roller coaster, which I think is symptomatic of this self limiting belief. And I know I still ride what I call the trash talk roller coaster regularly, and it starts like this. This is awesome. And then something will happen to the project or the job or the relationship or the something that kind of moves it off the rails a bit which point we go to, oh, this is harder than I thought. And then we get to the, if it keeps on that route of this sucks, and then very quickly it goes from this sucks to, I suck, I must suck, because why can I do this? Why can I get this person to whatever? Why can't I get this project back on track? And then maybe the hopeful is that you come around the other side to well, it's not as bad as I thought it was. And you're fat. This is okay to back to this is awesome. And for me, it's the catching myself in the oh, this is harder of God, this sucks and trying to break my precondition patterns before it gets to the I suck, to differentiate the two to differentiate from the system that might be sucky. Or the yes, I'm bits because I'm new. I'm the beginner, I haven't learned how to do it yet, as opposed to I will never learn to do it. It Michael Hingson 30:56may very well be that your gift set is such that it whatever it might be isn't something that you specifically might do well. But you might be the person who can find someone who can help you do it well, which gets back to creativity. Morag Barrett 31:17Yes, definitely better together again, why keep going after if it's not something you enjoy doing? It's not something you aspire to, you've put in a few of the 10,000 hours and you know, you're not going to really be a what ready and willing to invest the time to get further then delegate subcontracted out find somebody else. I love that suggestion. Michael Hingson 31:38So you went off and you got your master's degree? And what was the degree in human resource management, human resource management? So it's your Yeah, you do that in England? Morag Barrett 31:49Yes, I did. And that was also coincide with the birth of my twins and moving into leadership development properly within the bank. And within a couple of years of that actually leaving the bank the safety of what would have been a career for life, if I had continued on the path of head down, work hard, and it will be okay. And taking a risk and joining an American company that ultimately ended up bringing us to Colorado. And there I went from a very UK England centric career in life and life experience, to now working with leaders around the world and living in a foreign country with a very similar but different language. And it was the first of the baby steps that really accelerated my transformation. Michael Hingson 32:44Well, talking about human resource management, too, with with twins, there's good human resource management there too. Morag Barrett 32:54A lot of refereeing. And so there's three of them now, because we had an another one as well. All boys. So the usual wrestling and hiking that goes on. Michael Hingson 33:04Yeah. And how old are all of them today? Morag Barrett 33:08Oh, 25 and 21. So dependent young men now who are off making their own pads and their own decisions. And Michael Hingson 33:17Mom has to be smarter about human resource management to get them to do things that she might want them to do because they've learned to think for themselves I bet Morag Barrett 33:27Oh, it's smarter in that I have to do it myself. Now Michael or out, outsource it. So now as an empty nester, I'm on my own. It's down to me if I want it to happen, I'd better get the YouTube video out and work it out. You Michael Hingson 33:41can't outsource it to them. Or news not as easy. Morag Barrett 33:45Not as easily. And to be honest, they can learn their own journey. Yeah, Michael Hingson 33:52but I bet they they still love mom. I bet. Morag Barrett 33:58I hope so. You'd have to ask them. I'm gonna go with Yes. Okay, ultimately, yes. Michael Hingson 34:04We'll buy that. Yeah. Yeah. So you moved. So why did you leave the bank and join a different company? Morag Barrett 34:14Because I saw an opportunity to, to learn and it goes back it's curiosity, to see what might happen if and I knew I wanted to be in leadership development. And if I stayed in the bank, it was always waiting for the next opportunity and time will get you there. But when you choose to take control of your own career and make those deliberate choices to move, you can accelerate that transition and so the opportunity to learn and work globally. Even that decision to move to the states was a big one. My mum had just passed away. We've moved house to be closer to family because family is important. And now we were being asked to move 5000 miles away to a different and country. And we thought about it long and hard. We talked with the family and we decided it was an adventure that was too good to miss. And even if it only lasted a couple of years, we should do that. In the end, it's now lasted. Where are we at? 2023 years to 2005 we came. So, you know, it's lasted a lifetime and actually, is now our home of choice. Yeah. Well, it's time flower and you're having fun. Hard Michael Hingson 35:26to Be Colorado. Now, is there anger? Yes, it is. Is there a husband in the picture? 35:34Yes, there is. Yeah. So Michael Hingson 35:36he moved as well without too much muss or fuss, or? Morag Barrett 35:40Yeah, it was all as a combined unit. And then, as ever, life changes and moves on. So Colorado is definitely home with the boys being here. And I'm going back to visit my brother back in the UK in November. So I'm looking forward to that trip and seeing some of the old buildings and history. But also remembering why I like the blue sky and mountains of Colorado. Michael Hingson 36:04Yeah, needless to say, Well, you've so So do you still work for that company? Are you now totally on your own? Or what? Morag Barrett 36:12No, I'm totally on my own. So sky team is my company. I formed that in 2007. So for 16 years, we've been working in three ways with our clients, either one on one as executive coaches, with a intact teams on how do we ensure that this group of people is aligned around what does it take to be successful in their roles on the team through to broader leadership and executive development programs and had the opportunity now to work with leaders from 20 countries on six continents? All looking to? How do we solve the business challenges together, especially now in a 21st century in an in a hybrid environment where some people may be on site, some are working from home, and that additional complexity that may be factored in? Michael Hingson 37:06What do you think about the whole idea today of a hybrid environment, it's clearly the pandemic was one of the main causes for us to shift our thinking from just being in the office all day every day. Morag Barrett 37:20So I wish it hadn't been a global pandemic, with so many desks that was the catalyst for change. But my second book, The Future Proof workplace, really preempted the fact that many of our working processes and attitudes to career and work and office were rooted back in the 18th century in the industrial revolution, they had not morphed to keep up with the reality of what was now a knowledge work base in many cases versus a manufacturing work base. And the fact that as the pandemic showed, and work from home, work can be done from almost anywhere with the right tools and equipment. The challenge we saw Michael, though, was that people grab their bags and emergency evacuated the offices, assuming it was going to be two weeks, maybe a month, maybe three months, not expecting two years. And so the old leadership and management habits from in person, were force fitted, to working through the camera, and even now have not flexed to meet the needs of a hybrid workforce. And I think that's the biggest opportunity for us as individuals. And as teams and organizations continue to adapt and look forward. Michael Hingson 38:43Well, and we, we all need to grow. And, of course, my experience goes back to September 11, when something happened that we didn't expect, that affected a lot of the world. But I think the pandemic even more was an event that affects the world. And it forced more people to be directly involved in needing to change because what happened on September 11, affected a lot of us in a lot of different ways going through airport security is different and so on. But the pandemic really made major changes for all of us, including this whole hybrid idea. And I hear from so many people that in reality, it's probably a good thing overall because we we learned that that there is value in letting people work from home. And a lot of the times when people are opposed to it, it tends to be a trust issue rather than really an issue that is a true Yes. Morag Barrett 39:48Now, it is a trust issue. And I also agree that there is value in coming together in three dimensions. But it has to have a purpose and needs to be seen. Trucks should it needs to be thoughtful and deliberate. And why again, as I remember commuting into London, why would I want to spend an hour and a half going into the office to then spend the day there spend an hour and a half going home is 6am to 7pm. Schedule again, when I don't get to see the family unconditionally tired. Surely it's better to have those options to use technology. Like you and I are talking right now. We're having a powerful conversation, but we don't need to be in the same room. And yet, I know that if you and I were in the same room, depending on the nature of the discussion, and the decisions that had to be made, or the problem we're solving, it would be an even richer experience. So I think that's part of what we need to do individually and collectively is start making deliberate choices about how and when work happens. How and when team at work happens, how and when collaboration happens. Yeah. Michael Hingson 40:57And we need to recognize that there are a number of ways to make that happen. You know, for me, I'm used to talking with people, how do I say this, and not seeing them even being in the same room. So for me, one of the things I learned early when I started selling major accounting products, and doing it by phone, was that I use the same techniques to sell on the telephone that I would use if I were selling to a person sitting across the desk from them. Because Because the reality is that I communicate in the same way, which also means that I have to describe in the same way, now the value is changed, because we have things like zoom. So I can bring up a picture. Or I can show people things that I might not have been able to do in the past. So I can create a pretty rich experience. I think that all too often, when we talk about virtual as opposed to in person experiences, we do tend to limit ourselves a little bit with virtual experiences, we can make them richer than we think we can. Morag Barrett 42:18Hmm, yeah. So it's funny before the pandemic, my team and I were all leadership development, but it was if you want to be a better human, you need to do it in a room with other humans. And we rarely use Zoom or any sort of virtual facilitation, like everybody else, we had to learn quick, and I will I've eaten my words, because done well, this virtual environment can deliver many things. And I think about some of the friends that I've made during the pandemic never met them in three dimensions only met them through the camera. And yet, I would describe them as some of my trusted colleagues and life friends. In spite of that, or because of that, maybe, but again, it's being forced, and it's being thoughtful and deliberate versus just coming on the call hanging up at the end, getting on the next call, hanging up the end, we miss the subtleties and the cues of when we're in person. For example, your spidey sense might go off and say something about more eggs, voice sounds different words. And you may then follow me into the break room say hey, Maura, you okay, what's going on? And I might go with a British, nothing, Michael, it's fine. And then you're gonna know there's something and you'd keep going by and we don't get that, that you're not buying it. But we don't get those as easily as the thing to see through the camera. Again, unless as leaders and managers we are being thoughtful and deliberate in creating space for Scott to schedule spontaneity, creating space for small talk, creating space for just how are you doing, Michael? Versus the Okay, it's two o'clock, what are you doing, Michael, get on the Zoom call, show me a project plan. Michael Hingson 44:06Right. And I think that so using your example, if I detected that, from you during a zoom presentation, as soon as it was done, I would be halfway through dialing you on the phone to say what's going on. And Morag Barrett 44:23that, to me is an ally behavior. That's what being a friend at work is is I may be imagining it but are you okay? And I'm just checking in and the more we do that, the more we build trust, the more I build trust, the more I'm going to be willing to ask for an offer help or give you the tough feedback you need to hear. And ultimately then we are all better together. Michael Hingson 44:45Why should we care about our professional relationships? What's what's the value and really doing that? I think I know how you're going to answer that but me ready. Morag Barrett 44:56Maybe I should ask you and then we'll compare. So here's Just go ahead. No, no. All right. So why should we care because all of the research shows that it has a direct impact on our happiness, our health, and our success, whether that's measured in productivity by the corporate overlords, or in terms of success for our own career aspirations. Everything that we do, is impacted by the health and quality of the relationships that we build, whether it's on our team, across the industry, and so on, it matters. Michael Hingson 45:33And to me, it goes back to trust. Because we value our relationships, and we cultivate our relationships, we create more of a trusting relationship, which I think is so crucial. That's why I love talking about dogs, dogs don't trust unconditionally, they love unconditionally, but they don't trust unconditionally, but what dogs do is be open to trust, which is where we tend to. And so I very much value the relationship I have with my guide dogs. And I know that in reality, the trust is truly earned on both sides when we do. It is all about making that trusting relationship happen. And Morag Barrett 46:21also, it's the how you both respond to each other when the inevitable mistakes will happen. Yep. And how do you come back from that? And I've seen too many leaders who will either say, Well, Michael, welcome to my team, you know, and subtext is two years prove prove that you're worthy of my trust? Well, at the pace of change, right now, two years, you don't have two years, you have six months at best, maybe three. So why don't we talk through? What does success look like? What am I hot buttons? What do you need from me? What do I expect from you. And then we can accelerate that whole process. Michael Hingson 46:58As a sales leader, whenever I hired people. I've talked about it before on this podcast, one of the first discussions I have with people is I'm not here to boss you around, I hired you because I believe you can sell, but I have gifts, you have gifts. What I need to do, as your leader is to work with you to find out how I can add value to what you do to make you more successful. And the people who get that word, the people who didn't did the last one. Yeah, but but it's so true. I think any good leader needs to see how they can add value to the work, and the work ethic and the work experience of the people who work for them, and how they can enhance those people. And that's what it's really about. That's not easy to do for a lot of people, but it's what we really need to do. Morag Barrett 47:54Well, the challenge is we get promoted for doing something I mean, I think about banking, and you get promoted for processing your in Tray really well. Well, now I've got this unconscious bias, maybe that success is equivalent to how many widgets I made by Morag. But once you start moving through the organization, to your point, it's not about how many widgets can I make is how many widgets can I inspire and engage the team to make is getting results through others. And if we aren't amongst all of the other changes, and transitions, if we aren't aware of it, then we become that micromanager that's trying to control instead of somebody who coaches feedback delegation. And that's where we start to stifle ourselves and others and then maybe coming back full circle, it triggers those limiting beliefs of will maybe I'm not a good boss, or a leader, because look, my team isn't delivering. And we get into that trash talk cycle again, all for the sake of a little perspective and unlearning the habits that made us successful at this leadership level, and relearning or learning the new habits in a different way that will help us in that new environment or new context, Michael Hingson 49:03we will biggest mistakes or what are the common mistakes that people make in nurturing their professional relationships. Morag Barrett 49:11So I'm gonna go with it's a dichotomy. One is assuming that it's going to take a lot of time. And the reality is not necessarily. So if I ask listeners now to think about a best boss, best colleague, somebody who jumped at the chance to work with again, and what makes them special. So Michael, for you, who comes to mind, somebody you would love to work with, again, if you had the opportunity. Sure. Michael Hingson 49:37And there are a few. One is a guy I've talked about on the podcast before Kevin, who I hired and who really got the whole sales presentation, the whole sales pitch that I gave about how we add value. And yeah, I have some wonderful stories about that. But I think we all have that and, you know, I thought about My comment that I made earlier about trust, I think more of us want to have trust in your relationships than then have them. But we've not learned or we've forgotten how to develop those relationships. Morag Barrett 50:12Yeah, well, we talked about it in you, me, we, we talked about the fact that if you want trust, if you want more relationships, strong, powerful relationships in your network, then you have to go first and show up as that person for others and for you. So if I close the loop on this, and it not taking long, everybody's now thinking about their equivalent of Kevin. So my challenge my double dog dare challenge to everybody is to the extent you can send your Kevin, your best boss or colleague a message after this podcast that says, Hey, I was listening to Michael. And they asked about best colleagues and I thought of you and here's why. And in that nanosecond, whether it's a LinkedIn message, an email, a text message to the universe, you have made a deposit into that relationship bank account, and it took you two minutes less than that. That's how easy it is. But we think it's going to be complicated. So it's, it's making it a choice, making it a habit, I have a Friday 30 minute slot that comes up on my calendar that reminds me to send text messages and messages to people who are important to me, that says, hey, thinking of you, I even had one on a Saturday to text my sons. And it's not cheating. And it's not, because I'm a bad mother that I need the reminder. But it is the prompt, that make sure that I follow through more often than not, that means that we are more connected. And so do that. Find your 30 minutes, spend 15 minutes at the beginning of your next staff meeting, asking how people are what they did for fun over the holiday weekend, and start bringing the human to work, not just the work? Michael Hingson 51:54Well, there's nothing wrong with that prompt, we all tend to get diverted no matter how seriously or how firmly we have something in mind. So I have Trump's I, you know, when we have on our calendars and like, I use Outlook, there's a Birthday Calendar, there are so many different calendars. And I put notes just to make sure that I remember different things throughout the year. I think it's a very useful thing to do. Morag Barrett 52:24We do it with our passwords. Now most of us have a password manager, why not have a human and a relationship manager to that can help us and for those who see every day, it's easy for those who might be living in the next state or you only see once a quarter, then again, it's just about repetition and making those choices, but the benefits, health, happiness and success. Are you the team and the organization. Michael Hingson 52:53So what are the four? Yes? Is that you identifying having building relationships? Oh, wow. So Morag Barrett 53:01the four yeses are four questions that we are asking ourselves consciously or subconsciously in every interaction. You and I were asking about each other, your listeners are asking, or we're asking it about me and this conversation. And question number one is, Can I count on you? Can I count on Michael and Morag to have an engaging conversation and get it done within you know, the 30 minutes to 45 minutes? That's as advertised? it's table stakes is do your job. Question two is can I depend on them? Can I depend on them not just to go wow, are each other and fill the time? But can you turn depend on us to go the extra mile to make it fun and engaging to make you stop and listen and go? Hmm, that was interesting. So at work that might be can you depend on me to go the extra miles spot the typo in a document to fix the formula in the spreadsheet? But either way, these are my finance career people these two questions Can I count on you? Can I depend on you? Transactional, you do your stuff? I'll do mine will be fine. questions three and four, however, move from transactional to transformational. Question number three is do I care about you? Do I care about you as a human being? Do I understand your backstory? Do I understand a little about your lived experience and what's happening in your world right now? And then ultimately, question number four. We've touched on it when we talked about your dog when we talked about working relationships. Do I trust you? And if we don't get to a heck yes on all four of these, if we don't make the implicit explicit on those, then you're never going to get to what I call an ally relationship, your friend at work the person who has your back, or the person that you can go to in the time of need, Michael Hingson 54:49and we don't emphasize that nearly as much as we should. In our in our world with all the things going on in our in our world today. All the sound bites on The news and all the different political things and everything else. We we don't get to that. Which is so unfortunate. And Morag Barrett 55:08it is. And then we worry why wonder why people don't want to stay the extra hour to help you out of a pickle, that when you find yourself on the job market looking for the next opportunity, people aren't returning your calls. So the time to invest in your relationships is now before you need other people. And the time to be abundant and generous with your own time and expertise is now when others need you. So it's a balance. And it's two sides of the same coin. Michael Hingson 55:39Yeah, exactly. So you have written three books, when did you write your first one? And what are each of them about? Morag Barrett 55:47So there is a theme. So the first book is cultivate the Power of Winning Relationships. And that was published in 2014. And it introduces the relationship dynamics that we experience in the workplace from allies, our best friends at work, unconditional have my back, give me the tough love, and the kick in the pants when I need it. Supporters, more like fairweather friends, you know, when it goes and gets tough and you ask for help, it's crickets. They'll give me the feedback, they want to hear, Oh, you're fine, but not the feedback I need to hear. Then we have rivals a little bit more elbow jockeying one day, they might be all for me. And the next day, they're against me and uncertainty. So like Jekyll and Hyde, and then adversaries, the continually tense relationships that just fill me with dread. And so cultivate introduced that ecosystem and was very powerful, and still is in helping to transform team and organizational cultures. But we were consistently asked, Yeah, but how do I show up as an ally? What does that mean? And that was the genesis, I was just pointing Michael to the third book on behind me as a picture of the cover, which is called you, me we, why we all need a friend at work and how to show up as one, which is how do we show up as an ally for others, but also for ourselves and not become a doormat? And that was published last year. And in between the two, I have a book called The Future Proof workplace, which I mentioned earlier in our conversation. Michael Hingson 57:22So do you think everyone should have allies? You should have at least one otherwise? Morag Barrett 57:26Oh, my goodness, what a lonely place the world of work. Yeah. So it's, it's not like Facebook, this is not about converting every relationship. It's quality, not quantity. But yes, having at least one person on your team or in your organization that you can go to when you are having a good day and celebrate your wins, but also go to and say oh my goodness, I just messed up that podcast interview with Michael and they'll listen, but then they'll coach me through it. Or they'll perhaps come to me and say, Hey, I listened to that conversation with Michael. And here's what you did well, and here's what you could do differently next time. That's the power of an ally, they help us to be better, and reduce the fear of failure. Michael Hingson 58:12And they do it out of love. They don't do it out of spite. And they do it because they truly want to be supportive. And they trust yes, that you're going to accept that they're doing it for the right reasons. Morag Barrett 58:27Indeed, so doing it out of love, which, again, in an HR appropriate way in the workplace. And it may mean that we are best friends that work for this project. But when I leave, if I move back to the UK, we may lose touch, that's fine. It isn't necessarily that we are going to be best buddies forever or that I need to take you home to meet my mother and we're going to hang out after work. But definitely when we talk about psychological safety building a high trust team, than having an Ally Mindset and the ally behaviors, that mean we are working together and not against each other. That is the secret to success. Michael Hingson 59:07What's one thing that anyone can do to become a better ally? Morag Barrett 59:12Well, the first thing I'm going to suggest is to complete our Ally Mindset Profile because then you'll get your personal insights as to the five practices and where you might want to invest some care and attention. So you can do that at Skye team S k y e, Team dot cloud, forward slash youmewe, and all by the book and bounce the first thing and there is that but in the book we talk about the first step in becoming an ally is to look up to assess the relationship health around you. So simply by asking, How do I want others to feel in my presence? How do I feel in my presence? And the answer to that question will help to inform how you may need to show up, and what behaviors you may need to step up and do differently in order to shift your leadership influence and reputation. Michael Hingson 1:00:12And I think one of the important things about how to become a better ally is to also start by deciding that you want to be Morag Barrett 1:00:23yes. Now, if you want to be seen as the brilliant jerk at work, the pain at the end of the misunderstood genius, fine, go wild. Thankfully, there aren't many people most of us are getting up because we want to do a good job to feel like our voice and our opinion matters. And to feel like we belong, we started in the green room earlier talking about diversity and inclusion. Those are the three things and having being an ally. And having an Ally Mindset. Being an ally means that maybe that feeling of belonging is just between you and I to start with. But then it's you and I and to others, and then it's the four of us and another team. And before you know it, you've got a culture within your organization that truly does tap into the talents Michael Hingson 1:01:09of everybody. And that's what you really want is to build that kind of a real close team. Yes. Well, this has been fun. And I guess I would ask if people want to reach out to you and learn more about you maybe engaged some of your services or whatever, and also buy your books. How do they do that? Well, first Morag Barrett 1:01:36of all, please do connect with me on LinkedIn, and you'll get to see some of the newsletters and showcase some of our work there. Feel free to message me via LinkedIn, it's me the answers, not a bot. And then you can also check out some of our work at Skye team S k y e Team at.com, our comm corporate website and the books. They're available from all retailers and currently in Paperback or hardback, Kindle, and audio with the audio of cultivate being available next spring. Michael Hingson 1:02:09So Did did you self publish or did the publishing company publish? Morag Barrett 1:02:16I've done all versions of publishing but we chose to self published you may we it gave us more creative license over what we wanted to do. And the three of us my best friends at work are expensive and Ruby Vasily. Not only did we write the book together, but we also recorded the audio book together. So now that you've heard the accent, if you wish to continue that theme, then you will hear more of it on the audio version of Umi. We Michael Hingson 1:02:42will There you go. That's enough to have to work on that. And I really very much not work on the accent work on getting the books. Oh, yeah, I Morag Barrett 1:02:53understood. But I Michael Hingson 1:02:55really have enjoyed this. Well, what's your, your name on LinkedIn? How do people find you on LinkedIn, 1:03:01Morag, M o r a g. It's a Scottish name means great. So Morag Barrett B a, double r e double T. And you will see my picture there and find me. Michael Hingson 1:03:12There you go. So I hope people will do that. I hope people will reach out I hope people will buy the books. I think you gave us information about a free book also. Morag Barrett 1:03:22I did. Yes. So I think we have a code for you don't we that too, or download an audiobook. So I'll leave that with Michael to put into the show notes. But we have a number of copies available. For the first come first served folks who choose to sign up. So please do and you can get a free copy. In fact, now I'm rereading my notes if they message me through LinkedIn. So we'll redo that. If you message me through LinkedIn saying that you heard our conversation, then let me know whether you would like an audio version or an ebook version. I have 25 copies of each available to those first up to 50 folks who messaged me that I would happily share. Michael Hingson 1:04:11Well, that is so cool. I appreciate you doing that. And I hope people will take advantage of that. And thank you, you lots of lots of things from people will Morag Thank you very much for being here. And I want to thank you for listening to us today. We appreciate it. And for all of you who couldn't be more actress, you know of anyone else who want to be a guest on unstoppable mindset, please let me know. You can reach me in a number of different ways. We're on LinkedIn and so on and it's Michael Hingson and sign double, both to reach out to and to explore me coming in being a speaker for you wherever you need someone to come and speak and talk about anything from September 11 to whatever makes sense to discuss inclusion and diversity and so on. But also We'd love to hear your thoughts you can email me Michael hingson and you can email Michaelhi at accessibe A c c e s s i b e.com. Or go to our podcast page www dot Michael hingson h i n g s o n.com/podcast. And wherever you're listening, please give us a five star rating. We value those, we appreciate it. But most of all, I really want to get your thoughts, your comments we really want to hear and I know Morag will agree that we want to hear whatever you think and whatever you'd have to say about us today. So reach out to any of us and we will all make sure that everyone gets the message. So thank you for doing that. And giving us a five star rating as I said, and just thank you for being here with us, and they will be back with us again next week. And Morag I want to thank you one last time for being here with us as well. Morag Barrett 1:05:52Thank you Michael and good luck. Michael Hingson 1:05:59You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com . AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

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Welcome to the first time we continue an interview with a second episode. You met Brian in August of 2023. He had so much to say and so many of you expressed an interest in hearing more that I invited him back for a second go around.

Brian offered us so many life lessons in our first episode together that it was hard to end so abruptly. This time we will delve more into how his talk went viral as well as some of the physical and mental challenges he has faced during his life’s journey. We get to learn more about Brian the person and why he is the way he is.

This time he discusses in depth his speech that went“viral”in 2018. He tells us much more about his journey including more about why he left the supply chain world to go out on his own.

Once again Brian offers us many lessons about being unstoppable and how to live life. I love listening to him possibly because he, like me, tells stories to illustrate points. I hope you love this second episode with Brian as much as everyone seemed to like his first time on Unstoppable Mindset.

About the Guest:

Brian Drury is a trilingual (English, Spanish, Portuguese) international speaker and presentation coach who helps his clients to master the skills of public speaking and effective communication to improve their:speeches, interviewing, networking, presentations, sales pitches, and more!

Working with executives, entrepreneurs, and organizations around the world, Brian provides proven frameworks and strategies that help his clients know they can confidently present in any scenario, even on short notice.

One of Brian’s speeches went viral with over 20 million views on Facebook alone.

Additionally, he is a best-selling author, podcaster, content creator, and former Fortune 300 internal consultant.

He offers 1-on-1 coaching, group coaching, workshops and keynote speeches for entrepreneurs, executives, and working professionals alike.

Ways to connect with Brian:

Craft Your Keynote event,https://thebriandrury.com/craft-your-keynote/

Website:https://thebriandrury.com/

LinkedIn:https://www.linkedin.com/in/briancdrury/

Instagram:https://www.instagram.com/thebriandrury/

Free Facebook Group:https://www.facebook.com/groups/powerfulpublicspeaker

Book Link:https://www.amazon.com/First-Step-Brian-C-Drury/dp/151921538X/ref=tmm_pap_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=1689899768&sr=8-1

About the Host:Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.

Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children’s Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association’s 2012 Hero Dog Awards.

https://michaelhingson.comhttps://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/https://twitter.com/mhingsonhttps://www.youtube.com/user/mhingsonhttps://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/

accessiBe Linkshttps://accessibe.com/https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBehttps://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/

https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/

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Transcription Notes:

Michael Hingson 00:00Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us. Michael Hingson 01:21Well, hi there and welcome to another episode of unstoppable mindset. Today, we get to do something in the unexpected part of where inclusion diversity and the unexpected me. Least I didn't expect it until it suddenly happened. And that is that we get to interview Brian Drury and this is our second interview with Brian. We met him a few months ago. He did a podcast it has gone live. And he and I have talked and we agreed he ought to come back again and chat with us some more. And so here we are, to talk about what's happened since what's been going on that we didn't get to talk about in the first podcast, and anything else that seems relevant to do So Brian, welcome to unstoppable mindset again. Brian Drury 02:05Thanks for having me back. Michael. stoked to be here, man. Well, Michael Hingson 02:08we're really glad you're here and looking forward to having a lot of fun. And if you remember Brian's bio from before, he is a trilingual, English, Spanish and Portuguese speaker. He does a lot of things dealing with public speaking, effective communications, and other stuff. I'm sure he is perfectly willing to talk about much more relevant than I. So Brian, what's happened since we chatted last time? I know you had a big event coming up. How did that go? Tell us about it. Brian Drury 02:42Well, the event went great. And and for anybody, I'll plug it right here at the front. So for anyone who wants to connect last time, so it's the Brian Drewery on social media. So at the Brian Drewery th e b r i a n d ru ry. And then if you want to email me directly, questions, comments, concerns, whatever, it's br i n. So Brian at Guide to speaking.com. So that is G yd, the number two. And then SP EA que i ng.com. So Brian, a guide to speaking feel like I'm doing a spelling bee. So, Michael, you had asked about the events. So yes, so I had a big event coming up. And as I have found almost every time with self hosted events is when you expect things to go to plan you are planning to fail. So essentially, every time I have self hosted an event, there have been unpredictable unexpected events and things that transpire that you throw off the promotion, throw off the preparation for and so you rarely have as much time as you expect. So what I would say for people who want to be speakers or trainers or want to get into this world, and they want to do events where they're talking to larger groups of people be ready to not have that week to 10 days before the event go as planned. So many people will say like, oh, yeah, that's what I'm going to do my most prep or that's what I'm really going to rehearse. But the thing that you and I know, Michael, that the real pros are prepped and ready well before that, so that when the event actually comes up, if they can't rehearse as much in the week leading up, it's not a big deal. So all of that to say I was coming up on this event. And this kind of ties into one of the other topics I had sent over to talk about was my first year, full full year as a full time entrepreneur. So I worked in a corporate supply chain career for a little over a decade. And during that time, I was building my own coaching and speaking and consulting business outside of it. So for seven and a half years, I was building this company while working full time. So then in April of last year, and we can dive into this if you want but it's how I came to the decision is a whole nother story but Ultimately, I hit the point where I said, my day job had gotten so terrible that I finally hit a breaking point and just said, it's time. And it did not go as I planned, it did not go as I anticipated. In fact, I had been in a corporate job, I'd always gotten good or great performance reviews, I always considered myself a top performer and work to deliver more than I was asked of me. And I had work to do that every step of my career, and then working in supply chain in the 2020. And beyond was a whole different other kind of nightmare. And I found that more and more of my time was going towards what I didn't want. And I was spending more time on the thing that paid the bills, not the thing that I really wanted to do. And I had all the typical excuses, you know, it's not time, it's not sustainable, yet, I want to build it up more, I want more consistent revenue in the business, I had all those things. And I said, One day, when I'm making x, you know, $1,000 a month consistently, then I'll just gently take this nice little cute leap and move on to full time entrepreneurship. But ultimately, with, again, we can dive into this if you'd like. But the details, it's, it's like, it's a very common entrepreneurial thing, things got so bad at the job that ultimately, I get called into my weekly meeting with my manager, and supposed to be just touch base, talk about how things are going. And my director, and HR are there as well. And I'm like, this is probably not a surprise promotion. And they say you've got 30 days to improve in these areas. And they were the things that were brought up were things that were either false, very small, or just kind of things where they hadn't talked or communicated to me for over a year. And now we're bringing these things up as issues. And it was basically them saying we kind of want you out, you know, there were for a variety of reasons. And a part of me fought this and was like, oh, no, like, I've always worked to give more this compromising my identity. But then I really thought about it. And I was like, Well, what your director is telling you is you're not right for this job. And you've known that in your heart for four years doing this. So instead of just continuing to sit in that I said, alright, you know what, it's time to take a shot. It had to get that bad. I mean, it was there's much, much more to that story of how bad things were, in order to get that bad for me to finally have the courage to take the leap. So were some of them go full time with entrepreneur? Oh, yes, go ahead. Michael Hingson 07:27Were some of the things they've got bad things that you did. I mean, what what do you mean, when you say things got bad? Or was it just your head wasn't in it anymore? What? Brian Drury 07:40It was a combination of things. So the kind of shorter version was in 2020. You know, working in supply chain was one of the most tumultuous times ever, they said it literally, our director told us it was the greatest supply chain disruption since World War Two. It's unprecedented ground, and everything came to a standstill for a period of time, and then everything tried to pick up twice as fast. So essentially, at first, everyone's all Kumbaya, and we're gonna hold hands, these are unprecedented times, it's all the cute corporate speak. And because of that, they tell us, Oh, you know what, it's all okay, we're gonna make mistakes, these times are crazy. And up to that point, they had been, all my feedback had been good, I'd been grading great performance reviews, I was building things I, you know, they were talking about getting me on a management track and all these other things. And then towards the tail end of 2020, I made one big mistake. Now, it was a big mistake. And I didn't buy several, like 12,000 units, which in the major, I won't specify the brand, just for the sake of it. But I worked in a major retail footwear, apparel brand that everyone knows, I wear to the corporate headquarters, and I missed a big buy. So there's a lot of reasons for that were crazy things that I won't go into just in terms of how the supply chain disruptions were managed. But ultimately, I found I'd made a mistake. And it was irreversible. Like, I would have had to order this stuff three months ago for it to get there on time. So these big important units weren't going to get there. I tell my boss, I find the air I let them know as soon as I find it, he has to go to the director and the director actually had to tell the president of the company because these were like big marketed styles. And so it was a huge mistake. And I felt terrible. I never like one of my biggest fears is letting people down. And the director came and had this like, Come to Jesus call with me and essentially essentially told me that this had discredited everything I had ever done that, you know, the week before when he said he wanted me on a management track. My years of going above and beyond were discredited and devalued. Now I had a target on my back I was his the direct quote was, Brian, there's a dart I said, have you lost faith in me? And he said, Brian, there's a dog Aren't cloud over your head, and it's going to follow you for a while. But if you can be consistent for a year, you can earn my trust back, essentially. And he also in that same conversation said, don't try to improve things just execute on the job. And one of the biggest challenges in that job was all of the terrible processes. So for the next year, I tried to do that, to my best of my ability, we had a team of five people that lost three people in the space of six weeks, we were going through a system implementation, we had a 20 year sourcing office close to all of these crazy challenges all during the pandemic, me and one other person kept that entire portion of the business going for a year, they're telling me everything's fine. And then in the beginning of 2022, I come into the meeting, and they had been collecting all the mistakes I had made perceived or otherwise for the course of a year, while telling me everything was fine. They just took hearsay as truth. So even things that were later disproven, or claims that were made or, you know, I sent this already, like just this kind of like He Said, She Said stuff. They just took the other person's side every time. And essentially, it was like you're making headaches for me. So we don't want you. And so basically, I come into this meeting, and they tell me things like, here's the the systemic issues that we've seen in your performance over the past year, sometimes sends an email in place of a phone call, sometimes sends overly long emails, sometimes this and this and this, and most of them were 60%, I'd never heard most several were untrue, like factually incorrect. And when I said, is the point of this meeting for me to share my side of this or and then my director cuts me off and goes, I think it is best best to focus on the path forward. So essentially, it was we don't care what you have to say, we don't trust you. We don't want you. And I honestly, Michael, I believe that even if I'd done everything they said they would have still fired me after the 30 days, because it was they were just like he doesn't fit because I would ask questions. When I would try to keep our customers, I'd have them adhere to deadlines that say, unfortunately, you missed the deadline. So you have to submit on the next by well, then they just go escalated up. And now I'm creating a headache by trying to get them to adhere to the agreed upon deadlines. So there's a lot of different things that went into it. But I'll pause there for a sec, because it was so bad. It just got to the point where I was like this is never going to change. And I'm not going to change this. So I'd rather get into a situation where even if it's scarier, I'm in control a path forward, right. Michael Hingson 12:39And so what did you do? Brian Drury 12:43So the next steps, because the big thing was I realized this, and I think you'll find many of your listeners have a similar experience is I realized they were never going to value me for me. They actually, in fact, you know, I'm running a communication and speaking and effective communication business. And in that call, they said, Hey, Brian, we've got some great interpersonal communication trainings we could recommend and like, they're all these things that I was just like, they don't see my value. They don't appreciate me, they don't celebrate me. And I can either stay here and just accept that or try and figure this game out on my own. So April 1 was my last week at that job. April 8, I left and I went out on my own. Michael Hingson 13:27Now that's 2022 Brian Drury 13:30is 2022. Right? So last year. And so I go out on my own, and I have found this, you know, I fought so hard for years, I invested 10s of 1000s of dollars in like, into my education and personal development events I had been working in modifying and tweaking my business, so I knew what I wanted to do. And when I left, I had three months worth of expenses covered like in terms of cash. So it was not like I had this big runway or I have a year to figure things out. I'm like I got three months and we'll see what happens. And simultaneously in that time, I started to develop what I thought was sciatica or like, you know, nerve pain kind of in the glute and shooting pain down the leg. And so as I was working to figure out my business, I started to have increasingly bad symptoms I tried every modality of treatment I could think of to try and make it better, none of which worked. And then got to a point where I went to the emergency room September of last year. They said it's a disc issue in the back. So I spent the next probably six months trying to treat it in every way. I got an epidural spinal injection, I tried to do PT, I was doing one to two hours of PT type work every day and still couldn't beat this thing. So in my whole first 14 months as a full time entrepreneur, I was battling chronic pain, chronic sleep deprivation, and so many other challenges as a result of that, that I never could have predicted as As my, the challenges I would face as a full time entrepreneur, and that ultimately led to spinal surgery, so I had to get a major spinal surgery, about three and a half months ago, got a diskectomy and a laminectomy got the problem fixed. And now three and a half months later, I'm in recovery. And I'm working through things so that managing that issues with medication issues with treatment, pain, all this, my whole first year and a half of entrepreneurship has been either chronic pain surgery recovery, and I'm just kind of getting to the first times of being pain free since then. So it's one of those things where everyone says you're gonna face challenges, as you know, when you go full time, and now it's all on you. And the first year was exceptionally hard. And I just tried to focus on the goals and step forward, I remember seeing my bank account, go to $16. And wondering how I was going to pay rent the next month. And then December, I started to get some momentum, I put together some programs, January was a little better, February's little better March was my best month yet. And then I had my best quarter ever in my best businesses history. And at that point, I was averaging, I would say one to two hours a day of work because of the pain. And since then, since getting the surgery, now this month in August, I'm having my best month ever, and it's better than that entire quarter. So I'm very optimistic about the path forward because with a healthy body and not chronic pain of being able to sleep again, it's a whole different world. So that's kind of the summary of my some of the highlights or lowlights of my first year as a full time entrepreneur. And I'll pause there because I know there's tons of places we can go. But yeah, Michael Hingson 16:43well. So what exactly did you go off? And do you left the job in April of 2022? And being an entrepreneur, what did you go off and entrepreneur and do? Brian Drury 16:57Well, that's a great question as well. So for several years, I started my business back in 2015. So at first I just said coaching, because I didn't really know what type of coaching I was doing. I just said, I'm a coach, and I can help you get great results and achieve goals and dreams. So the whole thing for me was in order to, if I'm going to try and motivate and inspire people to do those things, live their dreams, I've got to do that myself. So I started just working to achieve all of these goals and dreams, launched a business published a book that became an Amazon Best Seller launched a podcast, you know, moved to a new dream place got a dream job where I got paid to travel. So I started doing all this through personal development, and then teaching those skills. And I remember for anybody that's scared about getting started, or how do you charge for your first client, my first client was just a friend of mine who said, Hey, Brian, I love the results you're getting. And I want those two, I want you to coach me. I said, Okay, well, I'm trying to start a business. So the cool if I charge you, he said, Sure. They said how much I was like 300 a month, we'll do one call a week. So like 75 an hour. He's like, sounds great. Sounds great. And that was the beginning. So after that, I did that for a couple years. But I said I need to be more clear. I need a better niche any more clarity. So I realized, Okay, well, achieving any goal is the product of habits and how you live day to day. So now I'm going to become a habit coach. So I help people effectively set goals, and establish the habits to achieve those goals. So lots of study in human psychology and human behavior, and trying to help people optimize their habits, get rid of the bad ones, implement the good ones, get the mental blocks out of the way, and get to work and create results quickly. Because both in my corporate job and in my entrepreneurial pursuits. My thing is about results and momentum and change. I I don't think it's enough, just as a speaker, just to motivate, I think we should be giving insights and changes and help prompt people to take action. So I did that for about three and a half years. And then that was when my speech went viral. So 2014 was the first time I met Shawn, I believe I shared the story on the first one. So I speaker and mentor Sean Stephenson, one of the most prolific speakers on the planet before he passed from 2014 to 2018. He went from this untouchable hero to one of my best friends and he was introducing me to speak on stage. At that event, that speech that recording went on to go viral and we see has been seen over 20 million times up to this point. So when that went live, a lot of people assume that like how much money did you make off that because people think views or big social presence equals money. And that's really not the case. So I wasn't set up for it. So my facebook page for that old business grew. But I didn't have any offerings. I didn't have ways to engage people. I wasn't as consistent with content. So I didn't know the things I know now. So what it did do is give me incredible credibility though in the ability to deliver great talks, so I could share that I could use that motion. And I started getting more and more questions about speaking and presentation skills and being confident on stage and messaging and craft Hang in storytelling. So what I realized over time was I kept fighting for this habit change coaching, and I wasn't feeling it as much, and I wasn't getting the response. But then when I finally stopped and paid attention, I was like, everyone is asking me about speaking. And storytelling is one of my favorite things to talk about. And I can help people, I can solve some people's biggest problems in 30 minutes, and then we can go even deeper. So why not just, you know, meet the supply and demand together? Where match those two? Because it's often the entrepreneurial ideas, the intersection of, you know, what can we do? Well, what do people want? What can we get paid for. And now, after years of all these different iterations, and trying things, and making information products, and all these different tests, I finally found that intersection of the thing I loved that I'd worked with some of the best in the world at what they do, and I could give exceptional value, I could get paid for it. And I absolutely loved it. So I shifted gears there. And I didn't change my original business was called overcoming graduation, because it was about teaching young adults, everything I wished I'd known about life to help them live the life of their dreams. And I didn't change the brand, I didn't change the business, I just started focusing on speaking. So I started to grow and was doing that while I was working full time. So ultimately, when I got to the point of it's time to leave, I said, You know what, I'm going doubling down on speaking, I'm going full tilt into this. So I gotta create a new brand. So the first, honestly, Michael, like first two months, I really was like, I needed to decompress, I kind of had some, like, by the end of my career, I had originally said, my supply chain career, had originally said, Art, I'm gonna get paid to move out to California, buy this company, I'll spend like two years getting settled getting established. And then after two years, I'm gonna go full time into my entrepreneurial stuff, I'll build it up. That two year mark was 2020. So you know, as we like, we tend to make plans, and life has great curveballs to throw our way. So 2020 hits, I'm like, wow, it's not be rash here, right. And it's that convenient excuse not to take the big leap. So then, two more years, two years, and two months later, is when I ultimately got the, you know, the 30 day notice. And so now that by the end of it, I was so drained, you know, I was working 1012 hour days, I was working on weekends, and I was pouring so much time fighting for a job that I hated and not spending time on the thing that I love that I really wanted to fight for. And when things got that bad, my dad said to me, he's like, you know, Brian, it's probably time to stop fighting for what you don't want and fight for what you do. And the way that I left the company, too, I wanted to make sure that I didn't compromise my values. So I said, Hey, listen, I'll give you guys a month. So I can properly train people, even though you know, I don't think I was treated well, I don't think this was handled well. I'm not gonna let that dictate my behaviors. Because I had let my standards slip. While I was there, I had started to just make excuses and get lazier and justify these things and play the victim. And so I said, I'm gonna raise my standard backup to my standard, I spent a month training everybody, they didn't offer any severance, they didn't offer anything. And I was like, You know what, good, this is gonna make the story better to tell. And during the leaving corporate, so the first time not having a full time job, since college, and all of these things that was one of my big messages. That was one of the things I carried was Shawn, my mentor told us if things go wrong in your life, but don't go as planned as a speaker, you should be thrilled because it makes great content for the stage. So the whole time when things were crazy and chaotic. I would just say this is going to make the story better to tell. This is a great one I love to share with people. So I said, You know what, two months I'm just kind of decompressing. I'm taking breaks. I went to San Diego and took a trip with a girl I was dating at the time and was like, oh my god, okay, I'm finally doing it. So now let's figure this game out. I said, You know what I need to rebrand. Spend some time figuring out a new brand. So you know what guide to speaking, I really like that that fits. So I make a new website, I announced the new brand, I go through all this work, finally launch it and then all of my mentors go, Hey, man, everyone is moving towards personal branding. Now, it's far better and it's more flexible. So you know, your business changes in six months, you still have to say, you know, Brian drew.com or the Brian drew.com, which I have now. So then I go through an entire nother revamp while I'm promoting and trying to get clients. And I started to just, I when I was going to personal development events, I would offer a free hour of coaching people you know, it's a hey, we're all at this event, we all came. So I'm just gonna give a free hour. And that was great to build my chops and get my skills up even tighter but I wasn't getting any clients. So then I'm like, I talked to some of my speaking mentors. Some of the coaches I've worked with in the past they said you need a package or an offering. And so I started to dive deeper into that I created a 12 week group coaching program and one on one coaching program. And that was where I started to get some momentum and some results is towards the end of the year. did a big launch event, I got five people into it both with giveaways and with paid joining like so people paying to join. And that kind of was the spark for everything else. And so that was all up until like December of last year was kind of figuring out one big thing that I've, I've said to people that was contrary to what I expected. And I'd be curious to hear if this happened. And your speaking career as well was, I thought for speaking, and for coaching, people would want a custom experience. Everyone wants, you know, a custom perfect for you experience that's just tailored to you in every specific way. But then I realized, here's the challenge, when you have conference coordinators and booking agents and people that are busy trying to find someone to pick, instead of a custom menu, they want like the McDonald's menu, they want to number one or number two, and number three, they want to be able to point to it and then say, no pickles are extra sauce. And so in that way, they get their customer experience, but they have a proven thing. They know what a Big Mac tastes like everywhere. And so that was what I started to do both in product and in speaking was I created standard off offering signature talk signature coaching programs, and started to build on those. So that was kind of the first that like 2022. And then as I gotten to 2023, I made some more adjustments and things. But those are the initial steps into it and how I started to get my feet under me and get some momentum. So Michael Hingson 26:27I would, I would say pretty similar experiences. I have a number of standard talks. But I also tell everyone that talks to me about becoming well coming to their event, I customize every talk that I give. So what is it that you need specifically in your presentation from the what kind of messaging? Or now that you know about what I do? What would you like me to include or add or whatever. And I find that oftentimes, especially if I go to an event and get to hear some people who speak before I do, I may be customizing a little bit off of the basic talk right up to and including beginning to talk myself, because what I'm looking for is what is going to have the greatest impact for the audience. What does the audience want to react to? What do they want to hear. And I think people who are organizing events who are good at it, do understand that and do understand what it is that audiences want to hear. But even then the audience can tell you more, right up to the time that you begin to talk because every event is different, even a little bit different than what the planners talked about. So I've learned to judge that when I'm speaking to an audience or with an audience. And I love to say I don't speak to but I like to speak with because I want them engaged. And I want them to be part of the speech. So I do make sure that I'm interacting in a way that gets reactions from the audience. So I know that they're with me as we go sort of presentation. So I do like to customize, but from the basic talk, which is basically what you're saying. Brian Drury 28:14Right, exactly. And it's, that's why and doesn't surprise me at all, because I like I know how experienced you are. And that the best speakers I know put the audience first. And it's obvious like anybody who watches your speeches See that you do that because you make it entertaining, you make it fun, they laugh, they cry, like you take them on an emotional journey. And the way I like my phrasing for it is I don't want to lecture in an audience, I want to co create an adventure, right? So especially when I'm coaching people and speaking, one of the big things is a lot of people think and I'm really getting some powerful lessons on the balance of like content versus activity and engagement. Because my mentor always always harped on the criticality of activities, how that's a keep people engaged for the long term, they get more a better experience, they have more fun, they make connections. But what I'm realizing more and more is oftentimes in an effort to over deliver value, we take out some of the room for magic. So when I'm coaching speakers, I'm like, if you're doing an hour keynote, it's great to prep for 45. And then you also have a section you can pull out if you know, inevitably the time changes, someone went too long, etcetera. So you're prepared for that stuff. So you don't throw the event off. But you also gotta leave room for your magic, because each of us has something that we do specially or engagement. And if you bring somebody on stage or have somebody stand up in the audience, and one of the things I'll do is like live keynote crafting, I'll say okay, give me your premise, give me this and then I can give them an idea of how I would craft this is the less I leave room for that. There's less room for that magic and like you and I we can give the same speech over and over and over and that can get boring because when you know a lot of people go oh, I want this like homerun speech but at some point if you give it 50 times in a row When you know when people laugh, and this, you can lose the connection if you don't focus on the audience, right, and you can lose like the energy in the spark. So that's why I love to leave in the room for audience engagement and live activities, because that creates the variability. But also, like you said, come to the event, talk to people. And then we then those things and use callbacks to other speakers. And that's where you add the novelty so that this place gets a customer experience and that killer signature talk that you always deliver. Michael Hingson 30:29Well, exactly right. And so even though it may be the very same talk, the the lack of boredom, or the excitement for you, as the speaker comes from all the interactions that you do, and the fact that you recognize every audience is different. And so you treat it that way. Even though, essentially the same speech may come out of your mouth, it's still going to be different. Yeah, exactly. So how did your original speech go viral? Brian Drury 30:58That is, it's one of my favorite stories that and I don't know if you experienced this, Michael, but I'm very quick to kind of downplay or minimize the things I've done, you know, like mentally, like, I'm very self critical. And I'm quick to go like, Oh, yeah, you did that, like things that were lifelong dreams that I achieved. Once I did, though, my brain was gay, but it's just, you know, it's my imposter syndrome. My negative voice is trying to minimize these things. And when people ask me about the stories, and I think back, you know, right now, it's like, Hey, I'm focused on growth, I'm focusing on the new direction, the new product, the new thing. And I appreciate this question, because getting to reflect is so important to see both the hard work, but the magic that it took for this to come together. So essentially, the way that it all went down was in 20. So for 2014 was my first ever Sean Stephenson training event. And at that event, I was it was three months after I lost my mom to pancreatic cancer. So I was 24 years old, I was feeling broken and lost, I was more existing than living like I was just kind of, I kind of shut off. Essentially, I said, and this is all looking back in the moment, I was just trying to survive. I found myself shutting off my emotions, because my brain and again, didn't realize this at the time, but my brain went, you love your mom more than anybody else in the world, like your mom, your dad, your brother, the closest people in your life, losing her hurt worse than anything you've ever felt. You're experiencing more pain, sadness, fear than you've ever experienced. So, love equals pain, emotions, equal pain, just shut off your emotions. And I'm a highly emotional dude, I'm a very, I feel things very intensely. So essentially, for a time, I just closed off this entire piece of meat because I couldn't I, I didn't know I didn't have the tools that I do now to be able to process and work through that in a healthier way. Now, I'd gotten into personal development, thank God because things didn't go too far astray. So you know, I said, if I'm, you know, if I want to cake for dinner, I'll have cake for dinner, if I want to have two beers for dinner, or I'll have two beers, but I'm not going to become an alcoholic, I'm not going to, you know, just binge eat all day. So I had some controls on it. So I didn't get too far lost, or I didn't like go start taking drugs to just try and numb the pain. But I gave myself some grace, which typically, I wouldn't do that. And I go to Shawn's event. And it was unlike anything I've ever experienced was my first personal development event. And at the end of the event, there's a testimonial, like I shared on one of the mics at one of the sessions that you know, I was crying and I was like, I just lost my mom, I don't know where to begin. And then there's a testimonial video at the end of that event where I said, this is the first time I've been happy since my mom passed. And this is what I want to do. Like, this is what I want to my life to be about. Because you don't even ask me he's like, What do you want to do is I want to be speaker and a coach. And it's moments like this where I tell the story. And I'm like, I'm doing that now. And I have to remind myself, like, someone said to me, even when things were really hard in that, you know, 2022 and I like almost no money in the bank. They're like, Brian, you are living your dream, though. Like you are a full time coach and speaker you're doing it doesn't mean it's always gonna be easy, but you're doing it and those reminders were powerful. So after that event in 2014, I said, you know, that at that point, I think I paid $1,000 for the ticket. And then I had to fly to Arizona to be there from North Carolina. That was insane for me, you know, I graduated with $80,000 in student loan debt, and I had a good salary, but I wasn't making like tons and tons of money extra. And I was paying bills paying loans. And so paying 1000 bucks for ticket was crazy because I had this huge debt and why should I pay that down? But that's when I started to invest in development in the way many people invest in stocks or a home etc. Because to me, I was like those skills that I developed can have not just a multiplying effect, but they can have an exponential effect on my ability to create impact and wealth. Because I was like I don't just want to do something for money. I've done that in the corporate job. I want This to be about my mission, purpose, passion, those words that are really big and scary, but I was like the things that I know my heart I'm meant to do. So for the next three years, I went to every shot event I could go to, I just found a way, sometimes I was taking a little extra debt, and I had to get a client to pay it off. And sometimes I grow my business, sometimes I took out a loan, but I found a way. And then every year, at the end of his events, he had his big year long coaching program. And it was a huge investment. Every year it got bigger, but you would get all this time with Shawn. And it was like a dream. And every year I'd see the people standing on stage that ultimately bought in and I'd say one day that's going to be would be me one day, it's going to be me. So in 2017, I'm at Sean's annual events called 10k speeches. And I have that feeling in my heart. I know I've been to all of his events, I know when the offers come in, I know what it's going to be like, but this year, he goes big, and he offers more than he's ever offered. And that group is going to take a trip to Hawaii together and you're going to get a one on one day with Shawn at his house, and you're gonna get events at these different areas and venues in person with Shawn you're gonna get all this time and monthly calls. And so I just found myself going, Oh, my God, this is the best offer yet. And he gets to the offer and says it's $20,000 to pay up front. Or it's $2,000 a month for 12 months. So 24 grand total. And my logical brain goes that there's no way I do that's just way too much. You know, like you have four grand and your business bank account right now and maybe like six in your personal so you don't even have the money to cover it. Now, and your business isn't consistent, like so just logically, I'm going through all this. But then lying in bed at night, I'm thinking about it. And the next day I come back. And it's the last day of the event. And I'm just sitting there going, Oh, my heart is calling me to do this. And so Shawn used to say your intuition can't give you all the answers because it operates off faith. And you know, for all your listeners, whether it's God or a higher power, or the universe or whatever you believe. And there was something in me calling saying it's like that call to greatness, that moment where something and you see something beyond what you're currently living, but it can't give you all the answers. Because you need to take a step you need to take action and operate on faith. So I'm sitting there and I'm freaking out. And then we come to a break. And now Shawn is one of my best friends. And he's up on stage and you're not supposed to go up in Iraq, but I go to his wife and like Mindy, I got to talk to Sean. I'm like, I just I just need a minute. I need to talk to him. Because it's coming up on the end of the event. I'm like, I think it's time but I'm so scared. And so she goes by you're not supposed to. And I was just like two minutes. And she goes, Okay, just real quick. And so I run out to Shawn on stage. He looks at me and he had this way of just seeing into you, you know, not just looking at you. And I'm crying like I'm losing it right? Because Shawn it changed my life. I want this so bad. This is amazing. I want to and so much, Shawn. And I don't know if cursing is allowed on your show or not. So I'll refrain but I said, Shawn, I'm f and terrified. I was like, I want this but I'm so scared. And I have tears running down my face. And he looks at me and goes, Brian, have I ever let you down? I was like, No. And he goes, so I got you. I said okay, he's like, so what are you gonna do? I was like, I'm gonna go sign up, you know, he's like sobbing and snot coming out. And he's like, okay, man, I'm excited for you. And so I went and did it that year, he gave everyone a cape. So he got this silk cape. Because the program is called Master heart. You are the master for our heroes. His whole thing was if I want to teach you to be a world class speaker, I've got to teach you first to be a world class human being. So the next year so I sign up and figured it out. Right. And it was messy and you know, building up credit card debt and my brother's like you have way too much debt. So I had to take out a loan to make it more manageable. And then my business grows a little and it was this all this stuff of just figuring it out. And we went to Hawaii together my first trip to Hawaii, we had group calls together on a one on one with Shawn and so the big thing at the end of the program was a speaker contest. And if you won the speaker contest, and Sean said you were ready, you will get the opportunity to speak on stage he does next event. So every year I'd seen his students that were always amazing. I was the youngest guy in the program. Three months before the event, he announces the challenge. We start preparing, we start rehearsing and I was doing the thing so many people do. I was going on. I've got it in my head. I'm rehearsing in my head, but I wasn't practicing. I'd written it out. I've never really practiced it. I got to my dress rehearsal three weeks before the event. And the whole thing was it was a 10 minute talk. You come in you give the speech and Shan Shan says okay, we're gonna get started and set the time when you hear the timer. I'm gonna give you three minutes of feedback. And that's it. So it's been an hour. It's real quick. I come in. I'm all confident I thought I had things under control and bombed I gave one are the worst speeches I've ever given. And it timer goes off. I didn't even finish I was it was just terrible. And Shawn would lovingly give you harsh feedback. So he would tell you the truth. And he goes, Okay, Brian, that was terrible. And I was like, I know, I know. And he goes, but I want you to know, everyone's dress rehearsal sucks. And it's okay. You know, it's like, it felt a little better. But I still I was like, I just blew and he goes, I'm gonna give you a challenge three weeks before the contest. Because I'm gonna give you a challenge. I want you to scrap this entirely what you've been working on for three months, start fresh and do something different. Brian Drury 40:38And I was like, I got it. I was like, Shawn, how could you ask me to do that the events coming up. This is my best story, my best speech and I was telling a story about my mom's battle with cancer. And he goes, Brian, you're becoming without even realizing it. Your identity is becoming the guy who lost his mom, when you talk about all the time. It's your main story. It's your main thing. And you lead with that, because it's a way to get to a deeper conversation quickly. But there's so much more to you than this. He goes, your mom saw it, I know it. And I want you to show yourself that you are so much more than this one story in this one experience. And I think there's an even more powerful story you could tell that will help you realize that you're more than this identity. And so the next week, I had my one on one day with him at his house. So now it's two weeks till the event. He takes me through an activity I remembered a story that I hadn't thought of in years. So I just decided Alright, it's time because he used to say this thing. Don't pad the fall. So so often, you know, when we have something coming up, we pad the fall, we give ourselves an outright like, Oh, I didn't sleep well. I didn't practice enough. If I had really rehearsed I would have done better, he said so don't give yourself the out of the excuse playful out fail spectacularly but go forward, fill out and surprise yourself. So for the next two weeks, I worked as hard as I possibly could add ever worked on any speech ever. I practiced every single day I wrote the speech. I rehearsed it, I did it for friends. I revamped it. I was doing it every night as much as I could because I'm still working full time. Then I fly to Arizona for the event. The night before the event. My Uber driver asked me why I'm there I say speaker contest, he goes want to give me the speech. So I did it for my Uber driver. I did it for every person I could that was willing to listen. And then we have the speaker contest at Sean's house the next day. I was the youngest guy in the program. And I ended up winning the contest. And they said we'll text you tonight and let you know when you're going on. So typically, in the years prior, it's I'd been every event they would have the speaker like in the middle or the last day around when they were going to make the offer the pitch. I got a text around 10pm That night, the event is the next day. And they said we're gonna have you go on first after Sean. So he's gonna start the event. And then you're the first speaker they see. And he brings on all these world class speakers and people in marketing and sales. And I'm like, oh my god, I'm the leadoff and he's saying he has that much confidence in me that he's willing to put me right after him. You know, this is his showcase students. So pressure goes out. But at that point, I'd done the prep, I'd done the work, I knew I was ready. And I even set my goal not to win the contest. My goal was to give the best speech I've ever given because that was something I could control couldn't control if I won or not. But I could control given the best speech. So when I knew I was going on the next day, I just said that's my goal again. Now I'll give the best speech again I've ever given. So I got on stage, I do it. It's my first standing ovation. It was one of the most validating experiences in my life. And Tony Robbins says proximity is power. You know, we often hear you become like the five people you spend the most time with your circle matters, all these different phrases. Two days later, the founders of a company called goal cast were speaking at Sean's event as well. Now gold cast is like an internet motivation company. And they make motivational videos and they do clips and find like speakers and bring them up to like, they have all these incredible speeches. And I've been watching their stuff for years. I love their stuff. So after they talked and they came down off the stage, I wanted to talk to them and thank them because I was Listen, your work has impacted me so much. It's helped me through so many tough days. So I'm thanking Salim is one of the co founders. And he goes, Brian, I really appreciate it. So tell me why are you here? I said, I spoke at the event. I was one of the speakers in here. So I'd love to see your speech. And I, I lost I was like, oh, like and he goes, No, no, he is I'm not saying we're gonna use it. I'm just saying I'd love to see it. And I said, Hey, just the fact that you want to see it. After the event, I sent him the speech. And you know, even the editor for Shawn's programs had to like work, pull some strings to get it done faster. It sounds like there's this huge opportunity. Didn't hear first from Celine for like two months. And then all of a sudden, I get an email it says your video goes live on Monday. And I still didn't even believe it. At that point. I was like, I don't want to assume you know not until it's out there live. And then a week later it goes live and it gets out to the world. It his million views in the first day. Then it hits 10 million in the first week. I'm having people from all All over the world reaching out to me, I'm having friends I haven't talked to in years go, Oh my God, I know this guy. And it was just surreal. It was my first experience with virtuality. And it was incredible and overwhelming in many ways. But it was also just proof of what Shawn had talked about. When you play full out, you don't pad the fall, you give it your all, you have no idea where your story can go, and how much reach it can have. And there was so much magic that took place in so many little things about being in the room and knowing who goal cast was, and just going up to thank them not asking anything, and that turning all into this incredible thing that really changed the course of my career and my life, was that speech going viral? Because that's a large part of why I'm doing what I am today. Michael Hingson 45:42So what exactly do you do as a coach? What do you coach about? Brian Drury 45:47So my coaching is primarily, I think, to give the broadest stroke is effective communication. Because I help people with this in a variety of ways, and what I've seen in my career, but also this is true of every coach I know that continues to iterate and find what works and change their niche to better fit was, it's an amalgamation of everything that I've done. So I spent years studying psychology and human behavior and habit change, and storytelling, and all of these different elements. So I have an ability to help people craft their stories in the most effective way to take people on a journey. So what that's led to is, Keynote crafting is one of the areas where I help people craft keynote speeches, or TED Talk type speeches, and help them actually go through and step by step craft a world class speech. But then I also have presentation skills. So when I'm doing corporate trainings, recently, I've done an event called elevate your elevator pitch, excuse me, where, and helping them create a redefined, reimagined elevator pitch, because I don't like the original one or the way people typically do it. I do events on non cringy networking is another one that I do. Sales, like effective sales, pitch and presentation skills, public speaking skills. So as you said, I go to the clients with kind of my list, I have a PDF of my programming guide, which is standard offerings, here's, you know, three of my development trainings, here's three of my business development trainings. And then here's five keynotes they can choose from, and then that prompts, the conversation gets them started, I understand very clearly what they need and go from there. So with coaching, I have done group coaching, I've done one on one. And then also, I have the corporate training side. So what's been great about My business is building it in a way and again, it's taken, it took years and years of testing and iteration to figure out what I wanted to do and where I could bring the most value. But for the right audience and market, if they're an author, and they're about to go on a book tour, having a signature talk that they know really hits and is going to help them sell books and get more exposure and press is huge. I've done media training, I've helped C suite executives prep for big sales pitches and offerings. I've helped people with I've worked with these soldiers medal winner. So it's the third highest commendation, someone can win in the US military. I'm helping right now a former Navy Special Ops rescue swimmer, I've helped people in training development. So I'm getting to touch in all these different worlds and help people with all these different elements. Because essentially, at the core of everything I do is I'm going to help you have confidence and clarity in your messaging. So whether that's helping you craft a more effective one liner, and you know, digital presentation, or having a speech or a short form talk, what I help people do is understand how to more effectively present what they do to not just like look confident, which is one thing, but it's to feel confident, and to do so in their authentic voice. Because a lot of what I help people do is shed the nonsense that we think we have to put on to be taken seriously or to be credible, I help them get rid of that. So they can focus on creating something that is authentic to them, and helps them grow their business, increase their impact, etc. So those are really the primary areas is my group in one on one coaching. And then I do have like individual consulting I do on a more ad hoc basis. And then the corporate trainings where I'm doing, you know, two to four hour trainings on a specific topic related to that audience. Michael Hingson 49:18Yeah, certainly exciting. And you certainly have come a long way since April of 2022, haven't you? Well, you, you prepared for it. So it's not like you've come a long way since April 2022. You'd been preparing a long time before April 2022. But you finally made the leap and decided to put it together and actually do it. Right. Brian Drury 49:38And that's the big thing. You know, you hear all the time we were like, Oh, it took 10 years to become an overnight success and blah, blah, blah. And, and that was one thing I learned very early on early on is there's no shortcuts. And so the thing for me is there are no shortcuts but there's better strategies and so through mentorship, you can find the strategies that work and then it just takes you putting in the work to get the results and And what I found here, and oh, now it's August of 2023. It's crazy, because it's August 31, I can't believe it's already September. But what I have found for me has been the best thing for building business is person to person connection and referral based business. Because so many people go, I need to build a big social, I don't have any impressive social following, I don't have a big email list. I mean, my email list is, I think, less than 200 people right now. But what I have found is by really focusing on over delivering for each client you meet, really understanding their needs, and then building good relationships. It's one of the best ways to do this, because people often forget, especially in entrepreneurship, you're the brand, you're the business, you know, when you're the face of it as a speaker or a coach. But the big thing is, people aren't just booking you for your expertise, your credentials, or what you've done. They're booking you for you. So I remind clients of this all the time, like, if you just connect and really genuinely care about the people you're working with, you're going to build stronger relationships and make real connections. So you have friends and clients, it's not just all business all the time. And if you're some diva speaker, who, you know, has a writer that says only read skills in the bowl, when I get there and you're hard to work with, and you're difficult to communicate with, even if you're exceptional, people are less inclined to book you. So what I love is meeting new people and building relationships. And that's what I do. And it's not this, you know, of course, as business grows, I'm working to hone the processes and create client acquisition funnels, there's all these things that I am working on. But for anybody that's afraid to get started it start with your network, look for areas to bring value, and then look for opportunities to get in front of people. And that's why I tell people it's if you have a high value clear, like high value and clear value proposition offer that you can come in and train somebody's company on where you can get in front of 20 or 30 or 40 people to talk about something give value first and then make an offer to connect after so that's a big thing for me is whatever it is, is get started and get rolling because he learned so much more by getting in and implementing and trying and all of this versus you know, the theorizing or drowning in the you know, I'm just going to post on social media and hopefully people will come get come to me it's like for me it's far better to create direct real meaningful relationships and build from there and at you know, as a result of that, like you said, there have been a lot of things in motion for a long time and for me you know my dad is a great sales person he spent 30 years in sales and you know good authentic real sales not like used cars Carmen used car salesman type of straight like authentic genuine relationship based sales and so he's taught me things throughout my life my mentors have taught me and so for me it's not pushing it's not forcing it's not trying to you know, not everyone's a prospect if they're not not everyone is so treat people like people get to know people and then where mutual value exchanges become possible then explore those and so I've been able to build my business and I've had again my best month ever in August better than my best quarter prior and there are a couple of things that if any, like I'm there's lots of things out there like lines in the water so I'm playing the long game in multiple areas but I'd say the biggest thing for anyone considering this route don't count on any of them because I have had things that seem like a sure shot that fell through I've had yes is that at this point of payment fell through so don't expect it Don't count on it. But play the long game, build relationships, ask for referrals make it clear what you do, and it's incredible what can come Michael Hingson 53:33and that is what it's all about. Well, I want to thank you for being here with us again, this has been every bit as fun and inspiring as I thought it would be. I hope it was for you. Last question. Have you paid off your student loan yet? Brian Drury 53:50No, but I have paid I think I'm down to like 20,024 22,000 80,000 from 80,000 so you know that's the thing is I have I looked at it was like yeah, I really love to pay those off. But as I've been playing the game you know it's like figuring out how to so I have never missed a payment I'll say that so even in my dark times and I'm still paying the loans because I'm like I want to find a way to do this while paying them off. And ideally if I hit some of my bigger goals this year I could almost completely or completely wipe those out so working towards that for sure but it was something where find a way to create manageable debt and then continually pay it off but not quite there yet but my brother's a financial advisors reminded me several times and said like Brian to have paid off in almost three quarters of that by 33 years old which I am now is huge. So instead of going I still got 20 grand I gotta go hey I've come a huge way with all the ups and downs so yeah, so I hope by the end of this year to be like a Michael I did it all gone. You know push that and click that final Pay button and just wipe it out. Michael Hingson 54:58Let us know when that has happens. Well, I want to thank you. Cool. Well, I want to thank you again for being here. This has been a lot of fun. We'll have to figure out what to do for a third one, but this has really been enjoyable. Absolutely. Tell us again, if people want to reach out and maybe take some opportunities to get coached by you or look for you as a speaker or whatever. How do they do that? Brian Drury 55:20So best way, the Brian Drury on all social media. So t h e b r i a n and then d r u r y. So D as in David r u r y. So at the Brian Drury on our social media, I'm most active on LinkedIn right now. So you can just search me you'll find me very easily on LinkedIn. And then if you want to email me directly, oh, sorry. Also my website thebriandrury.com. So everything social is the Brian Drury, or the Brian Drury.com. And then my email again, I'll do my spelling bee here. So Brian at Guide 2 speaking.com. And that's the number two. So B r i a n at G u i d e, the number two, S p e a k i n g.com. So I feel I really feel like I'm at the National Spelling Bee. So this is the best way to reach out if you want to book me for an event or coaching, or connect or just share some feedback, Michael, and I love feedback. And we do Piper show. So he has like an insight you want to share? You can send it to me, I'll let Michael know. So we'd love to hear from everyone listening. Michael Hingson 56:22And that goes the other way as well. If you want to share with me, I will let Brian know we would love to hear from you. You can reach me in a couple of different ways. We're on LinkedIn especially and Facebook, at M Hingson and LinkedIn is Michael Hingson and but you can reach me at Michael m i c h a e l h i at accessibe A c c e s s i b e.com. Or go to our podcast page www dot Michael Hingson H i n g s o n.com/podcast. Love to hear from you. We'd love to hear any referrals that you might have that might want to be guests on podcast, unstoppable mindset. And in general, any thoughts that you have, we all want to know them. So please reach out and let us know what you're thinking, please give us a five star rating. Wherever you're listening to us. We appreciate that as well. And I just want to thank you all for the time that you have put to listening to us today and for being here. And Brian, once again, thank you for making this possible and being here and for giving us so many insights again today. Brian Drury 57:23Thanks for having me, Michael. I look forward to it again. I'm looking forward to getting to know you better and better and hopefully meeting up sometime soon because we're both in Southern California. So thank you for having me. It's always fun man. It's great to see Michael Hingson 57:39 You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com . AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

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I think I am safe in saying that my conversation with our guest, Aaron Waldron is one of the most unique and stimulating one I have had the honor to have. Aaron has, through their life, had a number of run-ins with parts of organized religion which, as they says, left them quite traumatized. Even so, they firmly believes in God and knows that God is in and all around us as they will tell us.

In their life, they spent five years in the military. They also have spent much time searching for what they feel is their life’s direction. As you will learn, they currently are pursuing a Doctorate of Ministry degree.

One of the fascinating things about Aaron is that they have determined that they need to refer to themselves in the third person which they feels God is leading them to do in order that they remove more of the “I” out of their world. They will talk about their dissertation and their creation of the concept of Public Space Communities. I leave it to Aaron to explain this.

I hope you find our session today as fascinating and thought provoking, as do I. It is always wonderful to learn about different points of view and how we should explore integrating them into our own thought processes.

About the Guest:

My name is Aaron Waldron; we are a 36-year-old religiously traumatized Theopoet: a Shaman in Journey. Our pronouns are they, their and them. We do not identify in the singular first-person pronoun (I), but instead, we identify as a collective third person pronoun (we). As a we continue to develop into a Path-Maker trekking unfollowable paths that take us on a Journey towards Self; we are currently in a doctoral process at the New York Theological Seminary seeking to develop spaces between larger spaces that offers community for religiously traumatized people and study a complicated form of suffering called, "religious trauma." It’s my own religious trauma that inspires me to empathize and study religious trauma among humans in the 21st century. We seek to understand our Self through suffering entangled in religious trauma.

We were born and raised under a Full Balsamic Moon (Often relied upon as a source for inspiration and energy) in Brooklyn, New York on March 15th (My Zodiac is Pisces) in the year 1987 C.E.; surviving the NYC shelter systems since we could walk with our Mother and younger brother. We have experienced religious trauma all our life. My Mother, a primal relationship embodying the Mother archetype, was colonized by a hateful religion (colonized Christianity) that forced her to be an extension of an invisible oppressor. We grew up hearing things like: "Aaron, I am your Mother and God commands you to obey me." We typically were punished by reading the Bible in my underwear while kneeling on rice with my face in a corner. Barriers of religious hatred prevented me from being my natural Self. Living under this imprisonment and oppression caused me to develop suicidal thoughts while attending the High School of Art & Design. After attempting and failing twice, we settled to venture into college with the support and encouragement of our Nana.

During my first year at college, my girlfriend at the time was pregnant; we decided to drop out of college and joined the Army to provide for my beautiful daughter Serenity. During the time the "9/11 Attacks" made joining the military very enticing and patriotic. After serving about five years (2007-2012) and deploying to Iraq in 2010 for a year; we closed that chapter of our life and transitioned back into civilian life in 2012. We were homeless for a while, living in our car and going to school. It was an interesting time in my life, the friends we made got us through some dark times and we are eternally grateful. Ended up in Atlanta, GA helping homeless veterans get housing and employment as a "case manager and recruiter." We loved helping people who were in situations we have been in- we were able to empathize in ways others couldn't at the time. One day we experienced a Theophany (encounter with God in Dream) and we felt that God wanted us to know more about what God is or can be. So, we travelled back to NYC and enrolled in The New York Theological Seminary.

We started with their certificate program and found our Self boldly stepping forward to enroll in the Master of Divinity program (M.Div.-a 4-year degree at the time) with a few college credits but no degree yet. During my spiritual and religious journey to find meaning in God and my Self, we married our Life Partner, Yesenia Fernandez, met my kindred spirit, Rev. Lopez-Joel Dautruche and started to understand what love is and how to love my Self. The idea of God transformed in indescribable ways; we felt called or pulled to study in NYTS's Multi-Faith D.Min. program. My dissertation is a large part of my life, it’s an expression of what we are feeling and thinking, as well as what we have experienced. We wept uncontrollably in the first semester after realizing we must authentically commit our Self to this Journey. It was the first time in my life that we didn’t feel scared anymore to be our Self. By boldly stepping forward and developing this "unstoppable mindset" we call: "a Path-Maker." All of our life's suffering and trauma to include religious trauma has brought us to this moment in existence and we feel deeply humbled- If not for God emerging within me, we wouldn’t have stepped off-path to pave our own unfollowable path.

Ways to connect with Aaron:

Website: https://www.ashamaninjourney.com/Email: ashamaninjourney@gmail.comInvite to Public|Space Community: https://public-space.mn.co/share/otOyc_jjtbH0DOyYYouTube Channel: https://youtube.com/@ashamaninjourney https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCKROus_PpjszPrz2lT9iGDgInstagram: @ashaman_injourneyFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/aaron.waldron.5454Linkedin: @AaronWaldrona Carrier Raven Newsletter: https://mailchi.mp/24ab73d6b1c1/a-carrier-raven?fbclid=IwAR35lB07oc1rwmsBUVG1fR4oYJDqrnLFfMw6H5wQ83JPw2rwDc8yA6LCxuY_aem_ASoQiPP_BGFeKopkir_8gAr4pD4RuOAp6bW6s7z9Q4zjrUWL1ic-6yYLUGJij1dlUjs

About the Host:Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.

Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children’s Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association’s 2012 Hero Dog Awards.

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Transcription Notes

Michael Hingson 00:00Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visitwww.accessibe.comto learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.

Michael Hingson 01:20Well, hi, I am Mike Hingson. And, I want to welcome you to unstoppable mindset. You know, on unstoppable mindset, we get to talk to all sorts of people who have many, many different kinds of life journeys. And as I tell people, my most important goal on unstoppable mindset is to show every one of us who is listening and participating that we can be more unstoppable than we think we can. And unStopability is something that is different for everyone in the world. It's not the same necessarily for you or for me, or for our guest, Aaron Waldron today who comes to us, he describes himself as a shaman in Journey, religiously traumatized, I'm interested to hear about those things. And from talking with him a little bit before I know he's got a really interesting story to tell. And I want to get to it, I'm anxious to to hear it and to have a good conversation with with with him. So Aaron, welcome to unstoppable mindset. How are you?

Aaron Waldron 02:20Thank you for having me, Michael, really appreciate it.

Michael Hingson 02:23Well, why don't we if we could, at least a little bit. Why don't we start out with you talking maybe a little about the the early era and you know, growing up or some of those things and give us a little bit of idea of things that maybe helped shape the way you are today and so on? Definitely.

Aaron Waldron 02:41Well, we started, we were raised in New York, New York City.

Michael Hingson 02:46Let me let me interrupt if there's one thing I want you all to understand. Aaron speaks in the third person. I should have said that. I apologize. And he'll probably explain more about that. But I just want you to understand that that is what he's doing. So I'm sorry, Aaron. So you so born in New York City?

Aaron Waldron 03:04Yes. We were born in New York City, Brooklyn, New York. And we were pretty much poor, our childhood, living along shelter systems, living off public assistance and whatnot. So it wasn't until after high school that, you know, my life started to expand outside of New York. And I joined, we joined the military. We joined the army specifically. And when did you get out of just that was in 2007. Okay. And that was out of, you know, trying to provide a better life for my child at the time, my daughter, and just climb out of the hole that we were in, you know. So yeah, we did have military service five years one tour to Iraq. And that was in 2010. And then we left the military in 2012. March, and started trying to acclimate back into the civilian world since 2013, really, but we found ourselves drawn to the nonprofit, you know, just trying to help people. And so we ended up helping homeless vets find employment and housing down in Atlanta. And that was a really interesting experience for me. It really helped me deal with my own PTSD and my own mental health issues, you know, struggling with memories, loss of people, things ideas, lack of money, support, you know, just really in a bad place mentally Lean, but, you know, this inner perseverance, you know, just push this through to become a different, better person.

Michael Hingson 05:11What was it like coming back from the military coming back from Iraq and the military in general and then integrating in? I've never really had many discussions with people about that. But I I'm sure that it must have been an is a challenge for anyone, because you're going from one kind of a culture that you became engrossed in when you join the military to now a culture that maybe you were used to before, but it's, I would think, sort of totally foreign, because it's not what you did for a number of years. Your case fives.

Aaron Waldron 05:49Yeah, you're right. It was a completely it was like acclimating to a language that you have forgotten. You know, in the civilian world, there's a language, a way of understanding things, a way of operating and living and existing. But in the military, you know, it's centered around these three concepts, right place, right time, right, uniform. And so it really makes life different, it makes it simpler from a soldiers perspective. You know, if you focus on those three things, you'll exceed and be successful, you know, mission accomplished. But when you come to the civilian world, it becomes so much complex, more complex, because you know, you can wear the right uniform be at the right place at the right time. But you're still not enough.

Michael Hingson 06:41And a lot of people, and a lot of other people aren't necessarily in the same place that you are.

Aaron Waldron 06:49Right? Exactly. Statistically, most people, veterans don't really do well, when they have to acclimate back into society, because it's just, we're not accepted, there's no space. For us, there's no bridge in between what you did to serve your country as a skill as a job. And then crossing it over to something you can do in the civilian world that's not so focused on violence or bringing about violence. You know, there's a lot of great organizational skills that we develop leadership skills. This is something that most civilians lack the ability to work well with others, you know, and then it becomes a strong suit, when you come through the military, even at the basic training. So

Michael Hingson 07:40it's a lot to get used to, needless to say, yeah, yeah. Like, what, how to? I'm sure you've thought about this? What can we do societally to change that so that people who are here become more accepting or more understanding? Or? Or maybe it's that there needs to be done more than the military? But how do we deal with that? Because it certainly shouldn't be that way. It's got to be pretty traumatic, all the way around. And

Aaron Waldron 08:13definitely, you know, that's, that's, that's tough, because, from my opinion, these initiatives to help bridge veterans into society should come from the same population. You know, it shouldn't be led by veterans. You know, we have programs or initiatives that are spearheaded by civilians with no experience, then it comes off a little insensitive, and it doesn't consider the many complexities that a veteran is aware of, and is dealing with. So there's, you know, a dis attachment, a disconnection, you know, so when we go to the VA, and we're talking to the civilians that are just trying to do their job, they're not fully understanding what we're dealing with. And so it should be more vets, you know, becoming like peer support specialists or, you know, things of that nature. There should be opportunities for vets to come back and help mentor other events and help in that way. But yeah, that's just my two cents. But I definitely believe it's a very complex situation, and there's no easy solution.

Michael Hingson 09:26Do you think any of that is changing and more bets are becoming involved in various ways? Yes

Aaron Waldron 09:31and no. Yes and no. Like there's opportunities for vets to start businesses, yes. But the lack of training and no house is not there. The guidance, you know, a lot of vets are dealing with trauma, you know, physically and mentally and even to the extent of religiously and spiritually, and it's preventing them from having a successful wholesome life. You know, a lot of them are dealing and struggling on a daily basis with regret. Thoughts of loss, thoughts of not having, you know,

Michael Hingson 10:13and thoughts of the things that they had to face when they were in the military and possibly overseas. Dealing with operations?

Aaron Waldron 10:22Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So

Michael Hingson 10:24it's kind of no fun. Well, so you did come back in to the, to society. And you're, you're working to make your way. And you've been doing that for what now? 10 years? But what what's it been like? Or maybe I should ask a different question. What have you been doing? And and what is it evolved to for you?

Aaron Waldron 10:49Yeah, that last 10 years have been indescribable. We had a very divine moment, as a dream. And in this dream, we felt and believed that we had an interaction with God, and gave us a message to come seek and find God, no God more. And in our life, at the time, we were struggling with the understanding of God, we were in religion. And we were asking a lot of questions to the local pastors. And a lot of these questions ended up going to places like, well, you just have to eventually you just have faith, you know, or it was you shouldn't question God so much, you know, things like that. So having this dream kind of felt like it was empowerment from God, the universe, the greater that created us, you know, like, saying, Come find me, We're not hiding from you, you know, like, come get to me. And so the come getting to know me, led to us going to seminary, of all places, we've been to college a few times, but never completed our degree, and then found ourselves with a couple of college credits applying to the masters of divinity at New York Theological Seminary, and getting accepted. That was really a big one for us, because it was just like, on paper, it looked like a no brainer, this person should not come in maybe because they don't like they lack credentials, or whatever. But honestly, through the grace of God, it just, we were accepted to the interview. And we were on probation, academic probation for about a year. And we demonstrated that, you know, we could exceed maintaining above 80%. And we kept going, you know, and as we Interesting enough, we thought we were going to become more Christian, like, you know, and get into that. We even was attempting to become a reverend, and go through ordination. And even that process was very traumatic for us. And we were surrounded by insensitive peers that just didn't see that something was wrong, something didn't feel right with Aaron. And for a lot of other people, too. It wasn't just Aaron. And before you know it, we had to just listen to this voice inside of us that said, maybe this is not your path. Maybe you're not intended to go down this road. You know, it's not saying that it's a bad road. It's just saying, maybe it's not for you. And from that moment, we've just been constantly having this organic conversation with an inner source that we believe is God, you know, guiding us, counseling us, you know, the spirit, you can call it, and being led by the Spirit has transformed us in indescribable ways that we never imagined to be a shaman and journey. It just came about.

Michael Hingson 13:58Tell me more about that. What does that mean being a shaman and journey? So you would please?

Aaron Waldron 14:04Yeah, of course, there's a lot of different definitions or descriptions of a shaman around the world. Typically, they are holy, sacred people. People that traverse the physical and the spiritual side of life. But there's also a definition of shamanism or shamans. That applies to everybody, everyone's a shaman. But to acknowledge yourself as a shaman is to acknowledge that you are on a pursuit of a higher version of yourself, you're awaken to a certain degree, you see things differently, and you're not looking to follow so much, but to really embody this natural leader, you know, and we give description to this as a path maker, which can be anybody regardless of your ethnicity, your gender. You know, anything like every human has the capability of, you know, making their own path. So ultimately, you know to be a shaman is just to be that it doesn't require you to have magical powers or you don't necessarily have to be born from a certain tribe. Again, these are all traditional views, yes, and they're all respected, but they're not absolute. And to be a shaman is to also step into nothing is absolute, is to accept the in differences in the world to, to see that other is you and you are other. And I see that, you know, it's about your ego, and it's about you and to be a shaman is to step into a higher state of consciousness.

Michael Hingson 15:46So you do you kind of think if I want to ask this, I guess well, I'll just ask. So where do you fit what you do or believe into the world of what a lot of people face here in this country? Which is Christianity? Do you reject Christianity? Is that a just a different path? Or what?

Aaron Waldron 16:16No, yeah, thank you for that question. Reject is not something that we're doing. That's not the way to describe it. But we've been able to step out of this field poetic for walls of religion, and see that there's the many that are trying to describe God are all right, and all wrong at the same time. And so being that America is a Christian hegemony, and is predominantly dominated by Christian values and beliefs, the belief that there's one God, one savior, it falls into this absolute idea. And that's where it gets dangerous, because then you have people that believe they have to forcefully convert others to save their soul, by any means necessary. And we have data that demonstrates how you know, religious conversions around the world have also demonstrated killing people. These are not just harmless acts, these are violent acts to force people to belief systems, that they believe they're doing God's work by saving this person's soul by converting them into something that is not natural to them. And so that's just like burning down the Amazon, it's equivalent, you know, when we go around with our beliefs, and Christianity has been doing this around the world, historically. So this is nothing new. It's just we believe we're in a time where we can start articulating and understanding that Christianity is not the one sole religion, that's the saving grace of the world, and all existence. It's a very strong popular religion, but it has been hurting people along the way. And we cannot, you know, continue to overlook that. And so with that, we stepped out or stepped from that step outside that space of Christianity, and religion, for that matter, to help people that are navigating how to pursue God outside of these common strong religious avenues of belief and traditions.

Michael Hingson 18:36So you got a master's degree in divinity and you're now working on a PhD? How does the the school the college where you are fit in to your beliefs? Or how do people their receive you and your thoughts? Interesting

Aaron Waldron 18:54enough, Aaron is received with love and acceptance, because people that know me know, we're not a violent activists. We just are an advocate of our experiences. And it just so happens that there's hundreds of 1000s of other people that experienced similar things, such as this idea of religious trauma, and the effects of it and how it affects us in forming our identity, navigating the world, understanding who we are connecting with the thing, the thing that we can't see or describe, you know, this, this idea of God, you know, so it's kind of if you think about it, we're rethinking church beyond church, creating spaces for people to gather and still feel welcomed and feel encouraged to pursue God, outside of religion in their own ways. So yeah, that's all we're really doing is being a path maker embodying this idea that we're paving a path that others can learn from and see that you can do it too.

Michael Hingson 20:15And that, I guess, is why I asked the question, because the I'm sure that the perception of a lot of people is that schools of divinity, like that are just Christian oriented. And the reality is, they're not they're God oriented, which is very possibly a whole different thing. Yes. And it's so important. Go ahead. Go ahead.

Aaron Waldron 20:39No, I was just gonna say, especially because the seminary is one of few seminaries in America that have a multi phase program at a doctoral level.

Michael Hingson 20:52And so classifying is always tough. What would you be classified as then in that multifaith program?

Aaron Waldron 21:00I guess using their grouping terms would be falling along the spiritualist. Okay, track. Okay.

Michael Hingson 21:10Yeah. Cool. Well, you know, again, I think, personally, that it's all about God. And, and you can talk about Jesus, you can talk about any nun, any number of things, but it's still ultimately in Jesus would would say in the Bible, that it's really all about God. And as he's pointed out, I am my father are one and so are all of you. So it really is, or ought to be viewed. In the same way, unfortunately, we, we do tend to become very limited at times and what we do, which is something that that then tends to create a lot of the separations that, that we face. It's true. So what's your PhD thesis on? For clarity, it's

Aaron Waldron 22:05not a PhD, but it's a demon. But my, it's a dissertation, my dissertation is on, or called, between space. And the idea is to create spaces in between larger structures of spaces, such as religions, to allow people to gather and develop, share, and to be heard, by being listened to. So we created a digital community. And this digital community for the last eight months has been thriving slowly, really drawing people that are interested in developing themselves outside of religion, people that have been hurt by religion, and are trying to navigate and figure out what part of that that hurt belongs to God, and what part of that hurt belongs to humans, decisions or choices, or immaturity. So this space allows that to happen. We also have a teaching space that we use films, it's called between film, it's an artistic field poetic approach to helping us navigate and understand a lot of different complicated spiritual mental ideas, you know, such as the self, the shadow, the development of self through a hero's journey. Community, what can that look like a meta spiritual community. So we been looking over films and talking over them, they're pretty cool. And it's really great, because a lot of people get intimidated by books. And so with this kind of teaching approach, people are just jumping in, they're like, Oh, I saw that movie, or we watched the clip, and then we talk about it. And it's more inviting, you know, there's no gap, thinking. There's a lot of people thinking that, you know, they gotta read a lot to be smart, but we're naturally very highly intelligent as humans. And, you know, we spend a lot of our early upbringing not being cultivated, but being conditioned. And so this approach also is trying to help people recondition their minds and kind of decolonize their minds so that they can go about identifying themselves identifying with spirituality, they want to formulate and use for their own well being without tarnishing them and putting them down and telling them what to do.

Michael Hingson 24:39Yeah, I guess I said PhD I should have probably said Doctorate of divinity is that correct?

Aaron Waldron 24:46Doctor of Ministry doctor and Dr. Ministry, okay.

Michael Hingson 24:49Okay. Anyway. Okay, well, good to have the right terminology. But so that is what the public space community is about. out the things that you're talking about

Aaron Waldron 25:03is rotation. Yeah. So did

Michael Hingson 25:05is this a concept that you created? Or was this something that was already around? And you are, you're studying it more? Did you create it? As I say?

Aaron Waldron 25:15No, yeah, we started it actually. And it's based out of our own experiences and traumas. So we went about this idea of formulating a community and space that was hyper focused on the digital. So we meet through zoom, or some form of digital meetup. And it also allows us to not focus on the physical gathering. And there's a lot of complications that come with the physical gathering, as you well know, you know, with even disability. And if you have a congregation that is physically disabled, and you're in a physical church, and they're arguing over physical space, that's something that we alleviated by just focusing on the digital space, so that we could really focus on our thoughts, our spirits, the spiritual aspects energy, not what we look like at the time, or what we're dressed like, or where we're sitting or traffic and stuff like that. So we really wanted to focus on digital community. And most of the car, the community members are millennials. So they're very busy. And there was another thing, it was hard for them to physically meet. But if we did a digital meet, it was easier for everyone to manage. So

Michael Hingson 26:39it's, it's interesting, maybe, maybe it shouldn't be considered so fascinating. Well, what do you think more? Or most of the people are millennials?

Aaron Waldron 26:48Oh, yeah, that is an interesting part of my research was trying to understand that very same inquiry, why millennials, and it just so happened that over the last decade, the series of events, historical events have kind of shaped and pushed this particular group of people sad are in a particular age range that we classify as millennials to respond to religion in a particular way, we started to see a huge increase a significant increase, and people leaving the church, and a lot of those leaving people leaving the church were millenniums. And you have the age group that's older than them. They're their parents and their grandparents that have a sense of loyalty to their church. But Millennials tend to have this, this thing going on, where they're questioning things, and they're sensitive to things. And so they say, most millennials are just saying, you know, I don't feel comfortable in church anymore. And you know, there's this guilt from past generations that say, well, you're supposed to do this you should be doing is, it's the right thing to do. And so we see in this particular age group, millennials, that they're deciding to think for themselves alone, a lot of critical thinking, is taking off. And then you see in their children, Gen Z, you see this even more, you know, but my research is focused on millennials. But hopefully in the near future, we can extend to start studying and understanding the effects of Gen Z, our children, millennials, children's children. It

Michael Hingson 28:34is it is interesting to see what's happening. And I've heard and seen in a number of things that I have read that millennials and now Gen Z are people who are searching, and are willing to expand their minds and look at alternatives, which is something that hopefully will take them down some paths that will also help them deal with some of our more materialistic things in our world a little bit differently than people in the past have done as well. But I think we'll have to wait and see where that goes. So do you think that if if people understood it, if Millennials understood it, they would say that they have suffered a lot from religious trauma? You've you've used that term a bunch times I'd love to learn a little bit more about what what you mean by that, but and also then asked answering that question, have you think that's what they would say as well as that? It's a lot about religious trauma.

Aaron Waldron 29:43Yes, exactly. Yes, we would, because we started seeing that most people don't even make connections that they have religious trauma. So we started to view it as something like a cancer and we're unaware that we have as cancer, and it's spreading through our body, and it's affecting our body and hid in mysterious ways, because we don't even know what's there. And so the same thing could be said about religious trauma because one person could say, well, I don't agree, from my perspective that I have religious trauma. I don't think religion hurt me, but the people hurt me. And so it's maybe not the belief system, but it's the people upholding the belief system that can hurt you. And we still fall in that category of religious trauma. Because the structure Institute or practices is genuinely what is hurting you. And when it hurts you in a way that you cannot operate in a wholesome manner, you cannot be yourself, naturally the way God made you, that you have to conform, pretend. And you now find yourself feeling depressed, forced, obligated, guilted, even to partake in uphold traditions, practices, and beliefs. You're in the category of experiencing and struggling with religious trauma. Interesting

Michael Hingson 31:14concept that you make me think about. So you make a huge distinction between the beliefs, let's say, for example, in Christianity, but the actual beliefs, or teachings of the Church, as opposed to the people and what they're doing in the church. Am I gathering that correctly?

Aaron Waldron 31:39Yes, yes.

Michael Hingson 31:42And so it isn't the, for example, Christianity, beliefs, or the basic precepts of the religion, or the the Jewish religion, or Muslim religion, or Buddha, and so on. But it's how people deal with a deal with them, which is a whole different animal.

Aaron Waldron 32:03Yes, it's how we wear it. It's how we're taught it. It's how we embody it and practice it exactly. Right. So like, in my training, during the masters of divinity, studying the four Gospels, studying the first and second testament, really starting to learn how to exer G texts and understand what God is saying in the text versus what man has said it said, or has interpreted way. And so that's where we have the whole, you know, corruption taking place. You know, the Gospels are inspired by God, no doubt, but how we used it, how we taught it, and how we continuously practice it, is what's been corrupted and poisoned.

Michael Hingson 32:49You know, one of the things that I think about often is one of Jesus's statements, I am the Way the Truth and the light. And people say, well, because he says that, clearly, he's the only one to follow. But looking at my, from my perspective, when I think about that, I go back to Exodus where God said, I Am that I Am, thou shall say, I am has sent me to you. And that Jesus, the statement really IS GOD IS the WAY the TRUTH and the LIFE, then that I am isn't necessarily dealing with Jesus alone as the person. Because the other thing that Jesus says is, of course, he has God. And as we all are,

Aaron Waldron 33:36yes, yeah, exactly. Right. That's what we were speaking about, like the way we interpret these texts. And a lot of times we use literal interpretations. And we read the text and only what it says literally, when a lot of what is in the Bible, those 66 books are selected, but they're very poetic. They're meant to mean larger things, not specifically one thing, you know, so like, when we have a lot of Christians that hyper focus on literal understandings of the Bible, that is where we get, you know, these kind of teachings that really trap people to believe in one way. But like you're saying, and like we said, in the past, there's nothing wrong with the Bible, per se, because there's a lot of truth, even in the gospels when Jesus when Yeshua is recorded, speaking, that that's not like, that applies to everything and everyone and we've also seen through multifaith studies that these things overlap like Buddha overlaps Jesus and so on. And so they're saying same things just in different ways or different perspectives, the audience that they are speaking Eating.

Michael Hingson 35:02Yeah. Which makes a lot of sense. And I know that there going to be a lot of people who disagree with that. But nevertheless, it does make a lot of sense to consider the whole rather than just individual parts. Because the other part about the Bible is taking any one small thing out of context is a very dangerous thing. And way too many people do that. Yes,

Aaron Waldron 35:29yeah.

Michael Hingson 35:30So talking about you a little bit more. So you said you had a daughter that you wanted to care for when you went into the military? And so what happened with all of that? Do you still is that your daughter that you deal with still? Or because I think I read in your biography that you You married a different person?

Aaron Waldron 35:52Yes, yeah. Right now, my, my relationship with my daughter is very distant. And we've in our own life had to come to terms with certain things, because of what stories or what perspectives have been told to her. You know, it's, it's like this micro to the macro. The fighting of the narratives, and fighting over truth and lies. But in the military was very hard for me will be around my daughter, work at me away. So a lot of my love, language came out of gifts, you know, sending her gifts, things of that nature, but we didn't get really the relationship that we kind of dreamed of, you know, it just hasn't been able to happen yet. And so she lives with her mom. And, you know, she, she's happy. And I, we don't want to take that away from her. But we do prepare in our mind and our spirit that one day if we do get to spend time with her at a closer capacity that we're prepared to, to be, you know, demonstrating love, and not all this regret or anger or something. So

Michael Hingson 37:14yeah. Well, anger and hatred and so on doesn't really benefit anyone. I had the opportunity to read a book by Henry Drummond. Have you heard of him?

Aaron Waldron 37:31I don't believe he's British

Michael Hingson 37:33from the 1800s. And he wrote a book, it's a very short book, really simple and easy to read. And it's called Love is the greatest thing in the world. And it is all about love. And actually, the version that I got from Audible also has other addresses of his in it. But it's, I think, a very fascinating book and puts a lot about loving into perspective in a very simple way. And he, he talks about love in terms of the Bible. And he talks about faith, hope and love. And the greatest of these is love, which is something that John talks about a great deal and think Paul does, but Drummond mainly refers to John, but I thought it was a really interesting and a good book. I discovered it a couple of months ago, and I've enjoyed reading it several times. So I hope that you do get an opportunity to spend time with her. But you've gotten married since then. Yes,

Aaron Waldron 38:34yes, happily married. And honestly, this marriage, this relationship has allowed me to start loving myself, or understanding what that even looks like, my past relationship, it was hard for me to even understand what that even looks like loving myself because we were so caught up in pleasing others that we were trying to exterior, you know, a love outward, you know, kind of thing. And so with this relationship, we're loving inward, and it just keeps bouncing out even more. So we get to love more than we could possibly imagine just by loving more of ourselves. So yeah, this was definitely something that we did not expect. But again, it felt spirit led and so we follow that path. And we've been happily in love since.

Michael Hingson 39:36How long have you been married?

Aaron Waldron 39:39Coming on seven years now.

Michael Hingson 39:41Oh my gosh, congratulations. Even though even though I was married for 40 years before my wife passed last November, You're newlyweds but still congratulations. Anyway. Seven years is a is a feat compared to a lot of things we read in the papers about marriages and divorces. So I'm glad it's working out well for you.

Aaron Waldron 40:01Thank you. Thank you.

Michael Hingson 40:03So as you analyze yourself and so on, what would you say motivates you? Yeah.

Aaron Waldron 40:08People, honestly, people, people persevering through challenges motivates me deeply. When we found ourselves in some real depressed times, we would listen and watch like things like Arnold Schwarzenegger talking about pumping iron, or Les Brown talking about his motivational encouragement. So these motivational speakers and their perseverance, they survive challenges and became better for that's the kind of stuff that really motivates me, you're

Michael Hingson 40:44going to, at some point, work on being more of a visible, motivational or public speaker or that kind of one of the paths you want to take, or which way do you want to go once you get your Doctor of Ministry? Well,

Aaron Waldron 40:57honestly, after that, we definitely want to continue schooling, we want to pursue the psychology track, become a therapist one day, and possibly even become a young in and out hours. But we definitely want to help people to a large capacity, we have skills and gifts that we're starting to really recognize about ourselves, that we believe will make us a very crucial asset in the field of psychology, therapy, and even spirituality. So continuing to inspire people, motivate people, empower people, is definitely something of a cornerstone. And we will continuously do.

Michael Hingson 41:48If I may, I think you and I talked about it before, but I'd like to ask if it's okay. Why is it that you decided to speak of yourself in the third person as opposed to an AI in me? Yeah,

Aaron Waldron 42:02great question. Thank you. It was really out of a spiritual understanding something for us. When we were halfway through our masters of divinity, there was something taking place spiritually inside of us that kind of awakened us or opened our eyes to see that we are not an individual, by any means we're all interconnected. And so we're basically part of a bigger collective. And the we is a constant reminder that Aaron is not alone is not one person. But Aaron is part of many, a collection of, of other human beings, other living beings, other conscious beings, other spiritual beings. When we dove deeper into our meditation practices, we started to realize that we are not alone in the universe, we're not alone in anything, it's, we're so connected to everything and everything is so close to us, we can't even imagine it. It's not until we start really focusing on connecting with everything around us that we start to see that there couldn't be possibly an eye. So we took it upon ourselves to embody that by changing our code our pronoun to a third person, and still the constant struggle or practice and sometimes we slip up and say I, because most of our life, we've been conditioned to speak in first person and refer to ourselves and I, and be an individual. So this is only been a few years since we've been practicing this. So we're still kind of young and new to it. But it's a pursuit that we feel that it's a discipline of ours. And we continuously strive to remind others that Aaron is not an individual, but part of a collective.

Michael Hingson 44:09Do you find or are you finding that other people have or are adopting that same concept?

Aaron Waldron 44:17Yes, it is not that strange. And that actually made me feel a lot better about it. A few years ago, we started to see that a lot of people started thinking like this and started practicing this. It makes it a little bit more complicated with socializing with people, but it just takes practice like anything.

Michael Hingson 44:39Well, yeah. My immediate reaction is, nevertheless we ought to all be accepting of what we choose to do. There's no reason that anyone should have a problem with the Wii, as opposed to the I. I mean, in England, we used to hear about the royal we all all the time, and we still do, whether it's a custom or whatever. So it's it isn't new. Sure. But it is it is something that we should learn to accept. And and if if that is what someone chooses to do, especially since there's clearly a good rationale for it, then no magic there is no, what is your biggest fear in the world, or anywhere?

Aaron Waldron 45:32My biggest fear is that we cannot be ourself. Honestly. It used to be, we were afraid to be alone. And that actually transformed over the years, over the last, like five years, we used to have a very deep fear since we were a child of just being alone, because we were abandoned in our childhood and suffered with abandonment multiple times to our life, leading into our young adulthood. And so recently, our fear has transformed from that, too, that we're afraid to not be ourselves. Because we started seeing that the more we were being ourselves, the more we were being rejected by, you know, people in places and spaces, and ideas. And so this fear started, like really erupting inside of us of not being accepted or understood, because we were being ourselves. And so we have this fear of having to conform so that people can understand or accept us.

Michael Hingson 46:43So what do you do about that?

Aaron Waldron 46:47A lot of meditation. Even even before coming on here, it's not that we were afraid of you, or the concept of the podcast or being interviewed. It's just we have these deep, unresolved anxiety sometimes of the public speaking or engaging with people. And this probably even speaks to your comment about do we see ourselves becoming a more public figure and encouraging people and writing it's, it's hard, it's challenging, and we're in the process of trying to overcome that, to be a better person so that we can be a better, stronger public figure. But we're just not there yet. Because we have so many things we need to still work on inside of ourselves. So that we can respond in a healthier way, and not respond from our hurt and pain and ignorance.

Michael Hingson 47:45Well, I hope, and I don't think I'm reading into it. But I hope that you found that as we're talking here. You're you're feeling more comfortable, more relaxed, you sound more relaxed.

Aaron Waldron 47:59Yeah, of course, you make it a very relaxing. Yeah, of course.

Michael Hingson 48:05Well, the only thing I know is in about 12 or 13 minutes, I'm going to have to go feed a dog or I will be devoured before your very eyes. Now we're, we're good. He's over here asleep. He's in talks about love. I've always believed that dogs love unconditionally, and we could learn a lot from them. Now, I've also said that dogs don't trust unconditionally, but they're open to trust. And I think it's something that we we all need to learn is that we should be more open to trust, and we should be more open to accepting people. Dogs don't have hidden agendas, like people tend to do, or like we suspect people tend to do, which is, which is a problem. And so we we locked down our innate desire to possibly trust someone we've been taught not to do that. And that's so unfortunate. It seems to me in society, we should really both be more willing to earn trust, and have our trust earned than we do. And I hope that with the millennials and Gen Z, we'll start to see more of that coming through.

Aaron Waldron 49:14And we do too. And we have high hopes. Because a lot of people are beginning to really think for themselves and question. So, you know, there's there's hope for humanity.

Michael Hingson 49:28And there's nothing wrong with questioning. There's nothing wrong with asking. Right? And exploring. Yeah,

Aaron Waldron 49:35yeah. Yeah. Because even when we would talk among our divinity peers, MDiv peers, we would speak about, you know, this very same concept, you know, and there really shouldn't be a hierarchy to it. We're all in the pursuit of understanding God, describing God I'd like, there should be no competition, we should all be learning from one another. And all my peers have all been critical thinkers, you know, even a lot of them still are Christian. And we get along just fine, because we understand that Aaron doesn't have to say it the way that someone said it. You know, we're both talking about love. We're describing love, God being that ultimate love, power, or energy.

Michael Hingson 50:32And even more than describing it as living it. And that's, I think what it ultimately has to come down to that we, we make the decisions, and then whether we say it in different ways. Love is a is a concept that I think we all can truly understand. And then live by, no matter how we describe it, it's still the same thing to do it.

Aaron Waldron 50:57Yeah, we all need it to, we do all need it. Yeah, regardless of your wealth, or what you think is wealth, we all require love, we all require air, you know, we all require these human things. So that's why with us, you know, we see beyond certain labels and social constructs, like racism and race and, and see like, you know, we're all humans, why are we killing each other over these, these things that we're describing, that you say make us different, but we're not really different. So even our choosing of a third person pronoun could also be interpreted as an advocacy for a united space, like we're all connected, you know, for me to hate you is to hate myself, to hurt us to hurt me. You know, and we've been doing this forever. Now. Aaron Waldron is not the first to even talk about this. You know, this has been going on for a long time. It's just we need more people to listen. Check

Michael Hingson 52:00out Henry Drummonds book, you'll see a lot of those same comments made in this, this book by this well known philosopher and theologian, think you would like it.

Aaron Waldron 52:14Awesome. Thank you. Well, now,

Michael Hingson 52:17yeah, love the greatest thing in the world. So here's a off the wall sort of question. Do you think that someone or at some point, people will decide that your beliefs and so on are just another religion? Does that make sense? I'm not sure. But it's an

Aaron Waldron 52:39it is a very interesting question, a very dangerous question two, something that we had to ask ourselves along this process. Interesting enough, when developing a community when developing a rubric to teach people, the first thing we have to ask ourselves is what we're proposing. Is this a cult? Is this a religion? You know, if that is the case, why are you trying to reinvent the wheel, right. And so we had to remain constantly in this space of whatever we do is not an attempt to reinvent the wheel. But it's just to look at the wheel and the usage of that wheel and a different way. And so we're not creating a new religion, we're not creating a cult, what we're doing is we're trying to help people see that it's okay to be different. It's okay to be you, whatever that looks like, regardless of your looks, disability setbacks, you know, what you've done, that could translate to sins, things of that nature, what you don't have or lack that could translate to poverty, you know, that doesn't determine your connection with God. And so my biggest push is to remind people, there should not be a middleman between you and God. Because no one knows more than you. When it comes to God. No one has a capitalism, on the knowledge of God. Because we're all just interpreting an idea of God. God is not the physical thing that we can go visit. God is everywhere. It's nowhere, right? And so we can just bottle God up and say, Well, I've got God, and it's for sale, or I've got God, if you want to cure something, you know, we're so we're here to advocate that. That's not necessary. God is not that far away. God is actually inside of all of us. We come from God. We're always connected to God. You know, so it's a remembrance, religion.

Michael Hingson 54:54And the last thing and it's an interesting way to put it. And the last thing you want to be is using your own term. My analogy is that middleman because that would violate every precept you've talked about here.

Aaron Waldron 55:06Exactly, exactly.

Michael Hingson 55:09What strengthens your faith beyond religion, you know, so many people say, Well, I, my, my faith comes from being a Christian and all that. And so for you what strengthens your faith, since you, you deal with it outside the typical constructs of religion. Yeah.

Aaron Waldron 55:24My solitude strengthens my faith. For me, we hear God so to speak more in ourselves when we feel God closer in our solitude, you know. But when stepping outside the four walls of religion in the wilderness, so to speak, my solitude is where God feels and sounds and is the closest. And that gives us faith.

Michael Hingson 55:57And I would, the only thing I would add to that is, is your love, also, which has to be an integral part of it.

Aaron Waldron 56:03Of course, in our solitude, we learn to love ourselves. And in that process, we learn to love others through their heart, heart aches and struggles, because we have a lot of we're surrounded by a lot of people that are carrying things unconsciously, or they're carrying things consciously, and are battling with it. That doesn't mean that we shouldn't be connected to them or be their friend or help them. We just have to be aware of these things. So we can better love them, you know, and not enable their toxicities. Because we want to say, Oh, well, me giving you money is how I demonstrate my love. Okay, well, maybe money is not what I needed. You know, that type of thing. So, for me, in solitude, we get to not only know more of ourselves, and be able to love more of ourselves, empathize with more of ourselves, especially our shadow, you know, like that really hurt part of ourselves. That's like really angry all the time and just doesn't know everything is misinformed and doesn't have it, have all the facts or all the perspectives to see that it wasn't about you, per se, you were just part of a larger event type of thing. So by doing this stuff, we're able to love strangers, complete strangers, you know, interact with our neighbors, so to speak, and be good neighbors without a secret agenda.

Michael Hingson 57:31Yeah, that's really the operative part without a secret agenda. There's no need to have it. No, there isn't. So you have chosen a different path other than the traditional, typical organized religion? Do you still have friends? Who are religious leaders and very active in their own religions?

Aaron Waldron 57:51Yes, many have deep, deep conversations all the time. Yeah. But um, yes, we still have friends that are inside religion. In the church. They're prominent figures, leaders. And, you know, we still agree to certain capacities about things. But more more importantly, we're friends, human friends, you know.

Michael Hingson 58:18And that proves the validity of a lot of what you're talking about, because you can do that, and you don't need to battle over who's right and who's wrong. Right, exactly. So after leaving religion, do you view your life? Or would you describe it as being something like exodus in the Bible? Yes, exactly. That for a question.

Aaron Waldron 58:45Yeah, that's, that's a great way to put it. And and in that analogy way, or do poet poetic way, would be like, our life has been like Exodus. And we still find ourselves in accidents. And we're looking for that land of milk and honey, so to speak. But it the idea of the land and milk and honey is not a destination, so to speak. It's a pursuit, right? We're looking for something better, constantly. And we're just navigating the wilderness. And when we do that, we have to pick up certain skills and embody certain things and live our life a certain kind of way for us to be in a balanced state with the wilderness nature. You know, because nature is not predictable.

Michael Hingson 59:35And I think, sorry, go ahead. Go ahead. No,

Aaron Waldron 59:39I was just saying we have to be adaptable and fluid and reflective of that natural sting of just something may happen and it may not always go as planned. You know, and we have to be able to just adjust and adapt and grow and develop. And

Michael Hingson 59:57I think we'll find eventually that that land of welcome Honey is really something that's more inside of us. And it's more of a concept and a state of mind. Or if you will, in terms of what we do with this podcast, a mindset than anything else. We

Aaron Waldron 1:00:13agree. Absolutely.

Michael Hingson 1:00:16Well, I want to thank you for being here. And for doing this, I have had a very enjoyable and joyous time I, I hope you have to It's been fun. And I hope that you listening, have enjoyed it and found it stimulating. lots to think about. Needless to say, if people want to reach out to you and maybe learn more about you and and talk with you, how would they do that? Well, we have

Aaron Waldron 1:00:44a website, www dot A shaman in journey.com. We have a YouTube channel, a shaman in Journey, and we're on Instagram and Facebook, under the same name. So we really have been creating little projects, podcasts, as well as public space has been recorded, and it's shared online. So you can go back and see what we be talking about in our space. Well,

Michael Hingson 1:01:10you, you certainly have a good trail with a shaman in journey everywhere you want to look. So that works for me. Easy, easy to find you.

Aaron Waldron 1:01:20That was the goal.

Michael Hingson 1:01:22Well, there you go. You got it. Well, thanks very much, Erin. And I want to thank you again for listening to us out there. This has been, as I said, stimulating and fun. I hope you've enjoyed it, love to hear your thoughts, and I know Aaron would as well. Please feel free to reach out. You can reach me as I've said many times on our podcast at Michael M i c h a e l h i at accessiBe A C C E S S I B E.com. Or go to www dot Michael hingson h i n g s o n.com/podcast. And wherever you're listening, please give us a five star rating. We appreciate that. And we value it greatly. And also, please feel free to reach out to us and we love any and all of your thoughts and your comments. We appreciate them and we'll respond anytime anyone reaches out to me. I will always respond back. And I'm sure Aaron will as well. So I would just say once again, Aaron, this has been absolutely wonderful and I really thank you for being here with us.

Aaron Waldron 1:02:25Thank you. Thank you for that journey and great conversation.

Michael Hingson 1:02:33You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visitwww.accessibe.com. AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

View Details

“People-first leader” is how Vanesa Cotlar describes herself. She and her family moved from Argentina to Canada when Vanesa was nine years old. She says that while she had challenges due to language and landing in a world totally unfamiliar to her Argentine senses, she learned that not everyone or every place is the same. That knowledge in part is what pointed her in the direction of a people-oriented career.

After obtaining a business degree from Queens University Vanesa began her professional work with companies helping them to better fit people and jobs into a framework to make those companies more successful. Along the way she spent time co-founding a German-based HR tech company, Octagon Careers, that used tech to help access and hire people without the need for resumes, but rather that utilized people’s assets and strength to achieve good matches.

Vanesa talks a fair amount about HR trends and how she sees companies creating their HR strategies in a post-pandemic world. Lots of good information here and I hope you find what Vanesa has to say not only interesting, but useful.

About the Guest:

Vanesa Cotlar is an ambitious, people-first leader who spends her days as the VP of People & Culture at PolicyMe. She is passionate about building flexible workplaces and advocates for work-from-anywhere practices as well as transparency and ongoing feedback from employees to increase attraction, retention and satisfaction. Previously, she worked as the Director of People Operations at iQmetrix, where she spearheaded people initiatives, including innovative skill mapping, retention and recruitment strategies. Vanesa worked as a Management Consultant at Monitor Deloitte Canada where she provided strategic guidance to some of the world's largest companies, and helped build Winnipeg’s talent ecosystem while at Economic Development Winnipeg. Vanesa has worked in over 15 countries and has a unique understanding of how different markets operate and how people have found success in them.

Prior to returning to Canada in 2019, Vanesa was the Co-Founder and CEO of Octagon Careers, a German-based HR-tech start-up focused on understanding the skills and aptitudes of success in certain roles, and assessing and hiring based on those attributes without the need for a resume. She made the shortlist for the Business Leader of the Year - Women in IT Awards, Berlin 2019, for her work with her start-up and won several pitch competitions.

In her spare time, Vanesa can be found exploring a new part of the world, contributing to people & culture conversations and offering her time to start-ups that need help structuring their people practices. Vanesa is also an Ambassador and Speaker for Manitoba Women in Technology and holds an MBA from Queen’s University.

Ways to connect with Vanessa:

My LinkedIn works: https://www.linkedin.com/in/vanesa-cotlar/

About the Host:Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.

Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children’s Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association’s 2012 Hero Dog Awards.

https://michaelhingson.comhttps://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/https://twitter.com/mhingsonhttps://www.youtube.com/user/mhingsonhttps://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/

accessiBe Linkshttps://accessibe.com/https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBehttps://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/

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Transcription Notes:

Michael Hingson 00:00Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visitwww.accessibe.comto learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.

Michael Hingson 01:20Well howdy, as they say down in Texas, although we're not in Texas, welcome to unstoppable mindset. We're glad you're with us today. And right now we have the opportunity to chat with Vanesa Cotlar. Vanesa is in Canada, a very people oriented person, as I've been reading with her bio, and she has been involved with a number of different endeavors regarding that, and I'm gonna let her tell us all about that. So I don't want to give it away, which is, you know, kind of what I like to do. It's no fun giving it all away. And then why would we want to interview people or talk with people, so we won't do that. Vanesa, welcome to unstoppable mindset. We're really glad you're here.

Vanesa Cotlar 02:02Yeah. Thank you so much for having me, Michael. Well,

Michael Hingson 02:05why don't we start by maybe kind of talking about the earliest one. So growing up and all that sort of thing?

Vanesa Cotlar 02:11Yeah, of course. Where would you like, what are we getting right at the beginning, or I'm sure

Michael Hingson 02:17whatever you'd like to? Well, I think starts beginning where you came from and, and all of that and moving forward. That sounds

Vanesa Cotlar 02:26great. So you and I chatted a little bit about this ahead of today. But I was born in Argentina. And I moved to Canada with my family when I was nine. So a little bit of a shift Spanish is actually my first language. I grew up in Winnipeg, Manitoba, which is where I am today between ages nine and 18. And then went off to university or colleges, as they say in the US. And I went to Queen's University in Ontario here. And when I finished I started working right downtown Toronto, and management consulting. From there on my career ended up taking a little bit of a unique shift, I was thinking about what else I wanted to do, as I was kind of gearing up to my third year into consulting and I ended up doing a one year global remote working program. So I worked in 12 countries over 12 months with a group of 35 other professionals ranging from consultants, lawyer, software developers to big mix of people, and ended up CO founding an HR tech startup. So big shift from consulting to HR tech. But after that moved to Germany with it was a bit of a roller coaster, and ultimately, as most startups or startup failed. And I ended up coming back to Canada and in 2019, and moved more into the people side of tech. So it's been a little bit over five years now that I've been in the you know, people in tech pay space with my startup and then more more fully into the roles. And today I sit as the VP of people and culture at policy me, we're a digital insurance startup that's based out of Toronto, but we focus on being remote first so that our people can work from wherever they work best. And currently I am in Winnipeg, as I was saying before, so hopefully that gives you a little bit of that context that you were looking for.

Michael Hingson 04:09So policy me is an interesting name. What what, what prompted that or where did that come from? What is it do a little bit more?

Vanesa Cotlar 04:20Yeah, for sure. So I joined about two years ago, and the company started March 2018. And the idea behind it was around simplifying insurance. And at the beginning it was term life. And now we've added a couple other products on the critical illness side of things since we're building a few more. The idea is, insurance has always been a bit of an outdated industry in terms of requiring in person application, it being quite complicated to figure out kind of what you need and making sure you're getting the right advice. So policy knee creates a way for people to do that in a digital first format so that for more than half the people that go through, you can essentially have an underwritten insurance policy in about 20 minutes. And then we also have advisor. So if you're the type person that you would like hopping on the phone, you like talking to the humans, we do that too, and we're able to help you through it. Okay.

Michael Hingson 05:09Well, let's go back a little. So you moved from Argentina when you were nine? That's an I don't know, maybe an interesting age. I don't know whether it was a tough age to move to Canada. What was it like moving from Argentina to Canada? Yeah,

Vanesa Cotlar 05:24good question. I think it's interesting, because at that age, obviously, you're not moving as a fully formed adult, you know, so there's some different nuances. I think, when you move later in life around work and your career or educational components that come into play, but I think what was really challenging was, you know, moving to a new country where I didn't speak the language and leaving a home where I was really comfortable and leading what felt like a, you know, my normal childhood, I do think one of the big things so when I think back to that time in my life, and one of the things that I think kind of influenced who I am today is, I think, moving to a new place where you don't speak a language and you're doing everything from scratch at that age, it kind of gives you a greater sense of empathy, because I think it helps you understand that it's, it's really challenging, you know, to go into a place where maybe people don't understand what you're trying to say. And then they're trying, but then they also get frustrated. And I just remember, it wasn't the easiest thing for for sure, at that age. But I think one of the interesting things is it helped me really see that the world is not all the same, and that it's super important to just do your best to take your time to definitely try to understand people because it can be really hard for the person trying to explain themselves to

Michael Hingson 06:45Sure. What prompted the family to move? And

Vanesa Cotlar 06:49other good question. There are a lot of economic crises that happened in Argentina, over the decades and the there was one in 2001. That was a pretty substantial economic crisis. And it led for a lot of people to leave the country. And that's where my parents had started to look at different opportunities outside of Canada, and we ultimately, sorry, different opportunities outside of Argentina. And that's how we ultimately ended up moving to Canada. Well,

Michael Hingson 07:20you certainly acclimatized yourself pretty well, you? We have sound Canadian, and I don't hear maybe us training, but I don't hear a lot of the Spanish influence in your voice. Although, I suppose I could work at it more. But you do sound definitely much more Canadian and English has become an integral part of what you do now. Yeah,

Vanesa Cotlar 07:43I will say most people say I sound very Canadian of most people, unless I tell them that I wasn't important here. Don't really pick up on it. But I think, you know, it was one of those things of just really focusing in on the on the language and, you know, they say if you move to a new country before you're 12, that can be where you're able to kind of adopt a new language as though it were your first language without an accent. So I think I was one of those lucky ones that the language just seemed to make sense.

Michael Hingson 08:12Yeah, I think I can hear a little bit of the Spanish. Now that I look at it a little bit my but even so, how do you think that moving, although that was now what, 22 years ago? How do you think that that impacted the direction your life took from a career standpoint?

Vanesa Cotlar 08:32Um, it's a good question. I mean, I think because I was so young at that age, I definitely wasn't thinking about my career, you know, when you're nine and moving, it's more around school and friends and and what's that going to look like? But I do think when I started working, one of the things that was really important to me was trying to see how people that were just landing in Canada could get access to more opportunities. And back in 2019, I was working in economic development, Winnipeg. And one of the things that we were looking at is how to bring more talent into Winnipeg to support the growing tech ecosystem here and other companies. And I actually was fortunate enough to go down for an international recruitment mission to Argentina, where we helped Argentinian tech talent move to Canada for professional opportunities here. So I think one of the things that it's done for me is definitely helped see, you know, there isn't just talent in Canada just talent in the US and there's talent everywhere. And now with the world that we live in, it's a lot more global. So I think definitely looking beyond the borders of of a country where possible to look for opportunities for other people to

Michael Hingson 09:48see when you went to Queen's University, what did you major in?

Vanesa Cotlar 09:52I studied business and I would say it's interesting because at Queen's they actually don't ask you to declare a major In the business programmer, at least back then they didn't. And they asked, you know, to choose the classes that you're most interested or what you want to pursue. So my focus ended up being an in strategy and management consulting. But it wasn't. It was always interesting because speaking to people that went to other schools, they would say, oh, yeah, and I majored in this. And anyone that went to craves commerce would always say, like, I focused in this instead, just because it wasn't as strongly defined as other places.

Michael Hingson 10:29Well, but you, you clearly left after getting your degree and went into very much people oriented kinds of opportunities. So I was pretty interesting. Was that something that you had planned on doing specifically? Or did it just sort of turn out that way?

Vanesa Cotlar 10:51Yeah, so I would say, starting in management consulting definitely was my plan, I did a few different internships. While in university, I started in accounting, I thought I wanted to be an accountant. And then I did not, I did an internship and distribution services, which I liked quite a bit. And then I did my final internship in management consulting at Deloitte. And I ended up going back full time. And when I first started management consulting, my focus was on strategy and operations of large organizations. So corporate and business unit strategy, thinking about the big challenges and where organizations are going. And I think, where I ended up, kind of focusing more on the people side of things was I was always super curious about the implications of the strategic recommendations. And the so what, like, who's going to actually deliver this strategy? What's the day to day gonna look like? And I think that ultimately led me to start exploring that side of things more.

Michael Hingson 11:44Yeah. Well, so let's, let's look at that a little bit. So getting into where organizations are going, and what they're doing, and the strategies and so on. What, what do you feel is happening today? And you think it's different than it used to be in terms of how companies and organizations work, how they interact with human beings? How do you think all of that is changing? And is it changing for the better or not?

Vanesa Cotlar 12:15Yeah, I mean, so I think there's obviously like a difference between, I think, the strategic direction of a company, you know, where are you focusing product wise? Or what are you building and then how you create the supporting blocks for the humans that are going to be a part of delivering that? I think, to hone in on on the people side of things is you're getting out there, too. I think that one of the big shifts that I've seen is that there's there's this new focus on how can we help people work the way they want to work best? So moving away from you know, are you in office? Are you hybrid, too? Are you remote to this, this concept of, we really should be looking at what enables individuals to perform as best as they can and creating around that. So I think there definitely are a lot of changes and how companies are viewing their relationship to their employees, and also viewing how they create the environment so that people can ultimately thrive in their roles. I had

Michael Hingson 13:12a discussion with someone. Last week, actually, I think he said that his concern about big business and so on primarily, though, is this becoming a whole lot less humanistic is strictly at least in the US, so much focused on profit, and not worrying nearly as much about the human interaction. Do you think that's really true? Or do you think that it's different here than maybe in some other business? That's

Vanesa Cotlar 13:42a good question. I mean, I think it depends by organization, right? Like, it depends on the culture and the values that that a company has. I think the best companies that I've seen tend to focus on the fact that the people are the strongest assets that they have and their biggest opportunity for differentiation and success. But of course, that's not true in every organization in terms of where the focus is,

Michael Hingson 14:07do you? Do you think that in terms of discussing the whole concept of people where they're working and how they work? Do you think that the pandemic has really been a major incident once in the whole issue of allowing people to maybe work more at home? Is that a good human approach that makes a lot of sense for companies to consider more than they used to?

Vanesa Cotlar 14:34I think the pandemic was a catalyst. You know, it helped companies see what could be possible because change had to happen quickly. And I think there's big moments where something happens and it causes us to think how we operate day to day and then certain companies when they have the opportunity to go back have and then other companies have thought more intentionally about what worked what didn't How do we create the rest environment, how do we enable flexibility? Because the truth is most companies can. Now almost like logistically do it, you know what I mean? Like the mechanics are there, people have their laptops, if you will had to work from home. So the mechanics to make it work are there, but I think a lot of it comes down to were companies able to trust their employees, and were employees able to deliver. And I think in many cases, organizations were just really pleasantly surprised, you know, by giving people time back in their days from not having to commute or by giving them the choice of, you know, if you want to be an office, if you want to be at home, people were able to kind of take more ownership of their day to day, which a lot of the times has led to greater satisfaction at work, right, which ultimately leads to better performance of employees.

Michael Hingson 15:44The trust concept, I think, is very interesting. And I can appreciate that I think there were probably a whole lot of companies that said, Gee, Can we really trust our employees? Will they just goof off? Or will they really be conscientious? In my impression is that, in fact, in reality, we have seen a lot of companies and a lot of places where the trust wasn't violated. And the trust really was there. And maybe should have done it earlier. But but the pandemic still brought it about. And the reality is that, here's what goes into building a team. It's all about trust and working together. Yeah, exactly. And so they're finding out that, in fact, you can trust and if you can't trust someone, then maybe that's especially going forward, not the right person to have or that person has to grow and, and develop the trusting relationship that's necessary. But it is a but it is a challenge. And I'm sure that there are some companies that found a different kind of situation as well. So it's probably a mixed bag. But I would think overall, giving people the opportunity to do some more work at home, not just being an office, I'll be probably was a very positive thing. I know, for me, personally, a lot of companies over the years that I've worked for, were located in different places where I would be asked to go start an office for a company somewhere, or whatever. So I'm used to that environment. So it didn't really bother me with the pandemic, as much as it probably did with other people. But still, it makes a lot of sense to do. And I would think overall does build a better working environment for everyone. If people can do some of the work on their own terms or in their own locations. Yeah,

Vanesa Cotlar 17:36I think the flexibility honestly, makes a lot of sense as much as companies can afford to offer it to its employees.

Michael Hingson 17:44Yeah. Do you think that it's going to continue? Or do you think that people will go back more towards what we got to have you back in the office? Now the pandemic is over?

Vanesa Cotlar 17:55Yeah, you know, it's one of those things, that there's lots of news articles about different companies pulling people back end, you know, one day, a week, two days a week, or even fully in office. But I think, at least from my perspective, it's really important to think about the why, you know, if you're looking to remove flexibility, you should have a clear decision as to why it's important to remove that flexibility or that choice that you had given your employees. And for some companies, I think it's a lack of trust that makes them want to see their employees in person. And I don't think that's a good enough reason to bring people back in, I think, for organizations that have noticed, you know, productivity loss, or they weren't able to get what they needed, with employees not being maybe located in the same team room. For sure, you know, if you can explain why you need people in person, I think it's something that should be considered, but I think in most cases, it's not really necessary. So I think that for all the organizations that are kind of bringing people back, whenever people ask me about it, I always say, well think about the why, you know, do you actually really need them to come in? Is it just because you still have that office space and one spilling it? Because that really is not a good enough reason or feeling like, you know, you want to see the people in person everyday. But why? You know, so I say ask a lot of why questions and really think about the strategy behind it. Because I have had people interview for us that said, you know, I love my job, but they're asking me to go back in person five days a week, and I have a child at home. And I like to be able to not have to do an hour commute each way and spend more time with my kid in the mornings, and at the end of the day, and it just doesn't make sense for me to go back in office. So I think sometimes companies are missing out on retaining their top performers if they don't offer the flexibility. The

Michael Hingson 19:42other thing though, is that, yeah, I have a kid at home and I want to spend more time with the kid but also, let's use your example of commuting an hour each way a day, that's two hours. That could potentially be a whole lot more it useful from a productivity standpoint, if people didn't have to make the commute on.

Vanesa Cotlar 20:06Yeah. And I think for me, the way that I look at it, it's not even like two more hours that someone can work. And that's why we're saying, you know, it's two hours you can spend with your kid, two hours for a walk, or you can exercise where you can do things that you otherwise couldn't until you get home. And I think it enables people to live healthier lives, both physically and mentally when they have a bit more choice in how they spend their days.

Michael Hingson 20:30Right. Yeah. And I didn't mean to imply that that's two hours, only that you spend working. But it's still no matter what you do. If it makes you more productive in some way, then that's Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Vanesa Cotlar 20:44And, you know, to your point, I would say, even in cases where people have to work late, you know what I mean, it kind of redefines what late means, if you don't have to commute, right? Because when you were working late at an office, you still have those two extra hours of getting there and getting home. Right. So I do think from from every standpoint, it does create more time back.

Michael Hingson 21:04My wife and I were married. So for two years, she passed us November. And I have found since I appreciate that, thank you. But I what I've noticed since is that since in a sense, my time is more my own once dealing with all the stuff of natural passing. My work schedule, has caused me to sometimes work later into the evenings and sometimes not necessarily within quite as much in the middle of the day, for sometimes I make the decision to work for 10 or 11 hours or sometimes not as much. But the reality is that I wouldn't have that flexibility. If I were just reporting to the analysis that we're doing.

Vanesa Cotlar 21:51Yeah, exactly. And this way you get to choose right.

Michael Hingson 21:54And that's exactly what it's all about choice, as long as I know what the rules are in terms of what I have to be able to produce. And I think that's what companies really need to do is to define what the rules need to be recognizing trust in someone but find what it is that they expect from employees, and then let employees have the choice as to how they want to maybe make some of that happen.

Vanesa Cotlar 22:21Yeah, I agree with that. Seems

Michael Hingson 22:23to me, it makes a whole lot of sense. Well in your life, and all that you've done, have you found that you've developed any kind of network of mentors or people that have helped you through the years? And do you? Do you keep up with him?

Vanesa Cotlar 22:40Yeah, good question. I think that mentorship is something that's super valuable, both, you know, to find a mentor to be a mentor. I think what's interesting, though, is I think mentors, come and go through your career as well. Like I've had a few different mentors over the years that served me in in different capacities. But I think it's rare that one person becomes like your lifelong career mentor. And I think a lot of it has to do with where you're working the industry that you're in, as you shift and change careers. I currently have an incredible mentor in the people and culture space, who is about five, six years ahead of me professionally. And she brings me tremendous insight into what I do. Because when I have questions, or when I need someone to brainstorm with about things that I'm thinking, she is there for me as a sounding board, which which has been amazing. And I think one of the other things too many know, we were going back and forth a little bit on this one as well. But it's this concept that I mentioned to you of peer ship, which is the idea of you know, there's there's mentors, which are people that are further ahead. But there's peers, which are the people that are your network, your direct peers, same type of role, and other companies that are also immensely valuable to have and be connected to. And I have a few of those that I've built connections with. And they can also be an excellent sounding board for more of like the day to day because they experience similar challenges and opportunities to the ones you do. So I think it's really important to think about, you know, where do you need a mentor? Where do you need a peer? And I always say in those types of relationships, thinking about how much how much you can give back as well. So not just about what you need, but how you can support them and benefit them too. Yeah.

Michael Hingson 24:24And I was just going to ask about that. Because the reality is it goes both ways, right? You value mentors, and you have ventures and you have peers, that can be sounding boards for you. But if you do it, and I guess I'll just put it this way, if you do it the right way that goes both ways. And you are also a sounding board and a mentor for others. And sometimes I would think I would also think that sometimes even mentors for you who have more experience may find that you can give them insights that they hadn't thought of even though they're ahead of you some of the workstand

Vanesa Cotlar 24:59Yeah, I would agree with that. I think that, you know, having people that I've been in that position for as well, you know, people that I mentor, sometimes they ask me a question, or they're, they say something I'm like, you know, that's really thoughtful. I really appreciate you asking that. I hadn't thought about it in that way. Let me also share that with my team. Or, you know, let me share that with others on LinkedIn as a question and answer it for others to be able to see the answer as well. So I definitely think there's opportunity for it to go both ways.

Michael Hingson 25:29What do you think? How would you define leadership? And who do you think are good leaders in a company maybe that you interact with? Or were just in general? How do you determine who's a good leader? And who may not be such a great leader? Whatever that definition may be?

Vanesa Cotlar 25:47Yeah, that's a huge question. It's funny, when I did my MBA, we had a whole class on leadership, which was about, you know, defining what is what is leadership? What are the skills that make for a good leader? And we talked about beyond that, what are the things that matter to us? Personally, I think there's the the broader definitions of leadership and everything from being the person that empowers others to deliver their best, the concepts of building trust, the concepts of enabling others to do more than they could have on their own. But I think that it's a very personal concept in some ways, which is, you know, I think something that makes for a really great leader is someone that takes the time to think about their own leadership style, how they want to lead, how they want to be known, and how they can adapt based then on who's on their team, right? Because not everyone benefits from being led in the same way. And one of the things that I've always valued is, having those conversations with people that are on my team on a regular basis, like, Hey, is what I'm doing. Working, you know, is the way that I'm giving feedback, helping you grow in the way that you want to feel like you can give me feedback in ways that is easy for you, and in ways that helps us build this relationship. Am I giving you enough context for your work? Am I enabling you to have enough ownership in your day to day, I think good leaders constantly are asking themselves these questions and asking their their teams these questions. And in terms of great leaders, oh, I've so many I can share that I work with regularly. There's I'll give you one example. There's a company that I've actually used to support, I ran a 12 session cohort for our manager group and our exec team on leadership development. And I used a lot of content from an organization called elevate leadership and the founders there, Lucy and Lindsey, they have incredible content on leadership development, how to be a good manager, everything from you know how to give feedback, how to receive feedback, how to run effective one on ones how to have tough conversations, all the big things that managers need to get good at, and that you know, leaders have in their toolkit. They've developed some really incredible content there. And I work closely with both of them. And I think just their their thinking is always awesome, and in ways to deliver good content that helps others sleep better. And I think, you know, they lead by example. And when you talk to them, you know, that they really live and breathe, the content that they share as well.

Michael Hingson 28:22Yeah, and also Good leaders know, when to give up trying to be the leader in any particular situation. And let someone else who may have more skills in a particular area, take the lead, and then be willing to shift back and let the leader take over when a job is done. But good leaders, as you point out, are all about really understanding their people, learning how to interact with them, and how you interact with one person may not be the same way that you interact with someone else. Yeah, exactly. Just because not everyone works the same. So it is important to be able to understand it. And good leaders work through that. I know that for me, I always when I hired someone new said, my job is to add value to what you do. And you and I will have to figure out how best to make that happen. And I think that's important for leaders in general to understand. There isn't one mole fits all. Yeah, I agree with that. So you You're clearly a pretty inspiring person. How do you find ways to share so much inspiration and how do you how do you share your inspiration and your thoughts?

Vanesa Cotlar 29:50Yeah, I appreciate the kind words Michael. I think for me, something that has gotten into my daily habits has been sharing content on LinkedIn, I think is such a good way to be able to kind of share thoughts. With a broader set of people, it's actually been really incredible. I started posting more and engaging more with others during the pandemic, just because I've always been someone that used to think of community as an in person thing. But when when COVID hit, and we went to more Soviet home, I started posting, I started engaging with others. And I would say, especially in the last year, even as things opened up, I just found it was a really great way to connect with others, globally. And it's, it's been great. I mean, I share content every day and I connect with others have also shared content pretty regularly. And it's been a fantastic way not only to to share my thoughts, but to be inspired by those of others.

Michael Hingson 30:44I don't know how possibly to figure a way to answer this, but I'm gonna ask them anyway, just son. I agree. There's so much that's happening on LinkedIn. And in some way where a lot of business people have reacted, well, why LinkedIn as opposed to some of the other social media? What is it that LinkedIn has that makes business people and organizations and people and people who are looking to build teams, so much prefer that to some of the other social media have any insight into that?

Vanesa Cotlar 31:15I mean, I think primarily, it started because it's a job board, right? Like, I think people go on LinkedIn when they're looking for work. And by it being such a large repository of open positions internationally. With it, having the space to create content, I think became analogous to like the professional social network, you know, this is where you go look for work. This is where you go look for expertise, this is where you share your thinking, and others can find you here too. So I think it has definitely, from a recruitment standpoint, the strongest recruitment capabilities and the strongest recruitment tools built within it. So there's a number of added and paid features that companies can use. There's also a sales funnel component, and I've never explored that one very much. But definitely, from a recruitment standpoint, it helps you find the people you need to find. And then you also can understand who they are a little bit better based on what they post who they engage with. And you know, that I think a lot of people use, you know, Instagram or you know, I'm not on tick tock what many people use it. And you know, how we used to use Facebook was more to stay in touch with, you know, friends, family, you talked about your life, but I think LinkedIn has become the place where you shared around more your professional achievements or your professional thoughts. And it enables you to kind of hone in on it ended that way. So I think, for me, I look at Instagram is more like people's personal lives, which you know, from hiring someone, I would never go look, because I think it's their choice what what they're doing. But I think LinkedIn is more where you're choosing your professional image to put out there. So that's where I'd love to take a peek to see how are people presenting themselves? What is it that they're looking to do and to put out into the world? Interesting.

Michael Hingson 33:05Yeah, you know, it's it's very true that, I think the inertia at LinkedIn and the inertia that now so many bring to LinkedIn, to talk about the professional image, and so on and who say things like, don't try to sell me something here on LinkedIn, we're not here to do that. As such, we're here to learn, we're here to understand what you're looking for, or like, the podcasts that that I do, we've talked about the podcast on LinkedIn, not trying to sell anyone anything, we invite people and they can choose to come or not. But it's really insightful to see how people behave on LinkedIn, because it has become so very oriented toward the the image, and people looking to support each other in a professional way. And I think that's great that, that I'm sure that people at LinkedIn intended that. But still, the inertia of so many people using LinkedIn now and using it in that way. People have bought into it made it very successful. Yeah, I would agree. Which is, which is certainly a good thing. So it's, it's a valid way to do it. I don't use tick tock and I don't use really Instagram, very well. Tick tock and Well, both of those are pretty inaccessible in a lot of ways, and of course, a lot of it is that they're putting out a lot of photos. And they're not doing enough to perhaps make that information accessible. But nevertheless, that's what's happening. So some of us don't, and some people seem to go there and love it, but not for the kinds of things that you get from LinkedIn.

Vanesa Cotlar 34:55Yeah, I would agree.

Michael Hingson 34:57So if you can come honors somebody who wants to be a person who wants to be a leader in the, in the people culture space, what kind of advice would you give them? Yeah, I know, there's

Vanesa Cotlar 35:13a question. Um, yeah, I mean, I think it's depending on how, you know, for someone that's just starting, or someone that's a little later on. I just think it's super important to get clear on the why I think that it helps you focus or determine if you want to generalize, like there's so many subcomponents between, basically, when you think of people, the people or culture space in a large organization, it's a bigger team, there's people that solely do recruitment, people that solely do learning and development, people that solely support, you know, parts of the business as a term business partners, and there's much more specialization and so on and so on in terms of roles. And I think in smaller companies, it's kind of this you know, everyone does everything, type of roles, or, you know, there's only a couple of people and you're, you're managing a much broader set of things. And there's no right or wrong answer. I always say to people think about what you're most interested in, think about, you know, if you want to be a specialist, if you want to be a generalist, what it means within that realm. And then in terms of like how to actually get in the space. I always say, just think about it in terms of talking to people to understand what their day to day looks like. And think about the organizations that potentially may have the opportunities that are best aligned to what you're looking for. And like any other field, I think, you know, having a little bit of experience, how always helps. But to get that first experience, a lot of the times, it just means starting, you know, starting in lower level role, if you're if it's something you've never done before, to really understand it, or thinking about how your past experiences can actually translate really well into a different part of the people and culture space. So I think there isn't just like one right or wrong way to kind of get into it. But then once you're in it, I think one of the best things that I've seen is people that share their thinking, in the people and culture space, and in HR, it is one of those fields where I have no problem if anyone wants to steal my ideas, you know, I'm happy to tell you all my ideas, if they're helpful to you use them, there's there's nothing that becomes like trade secrets or ways that, you know, interfere with a company's ability to sell its product or whatever that looks like. So I think what's really cool about this space is it is one where we can share quite openly about best practices. So I always say you want to be a leader in this space, just share about what works for you share, but what didn't and help others kind of learn from your experiences as well. And that's where I found the greatest opportunity for connection with others to

Michael Hingson 37:53be a sponge be willing to collect knowledge and get knowledge from other people. And of course, we talked about mentors, which are always valuable to define. And my thought, also still is that you also might very well be a mentor to somebody else, because you're going to come with your own ideas, which will be different than a lot of other people. So it is a two way street. But but you do have to start somewhere. And it's appropriate to take some time to learn, be a student, and recognize that in reality, you're going to be a student, your whole life. People are interesting creatures, and you're going to find new things that happen dealing with people all the time. Yeah, I agree with that, too. So people are, are are very interesting. And it's fascinating to see how we end up really interacting with people and how we do the things that we do. But it's great that that this is you're describing it as a field where people can interact so well. And there's I don't want to say there's no magic to it. But there's no magic to forming a team or no magic to learning from other people because you're all trying to hopefully do the same thing. And making yourself and those who worked with more successful Yeah. So I think there's there's a lot of value to that. Well, so do you do a lot of your work in office or do you do most of yours remote? Where do you find works best for you?

Vanesa Cotlar 39:30Yeah, we are remote first company. So we let people choose how they want to work. We do have an office in Toronto, but it's totally optional for people to go in. And we get together in person three times a year and fly people in for those that don't have Toronto as their home base. So yeah, I am remote first.

Michael Hingson 39:50Yeah, you are quite a waste from Toronto, I think. Yeah, yeah. You're not gonna you're not gonna walk or drive there every day. Ah, Winnipeg.

Vanesa Cotlar 40:02Definitely not, I wouldn't make it before the

Michael Hingson 40:05show you learn to run a whole lot faster, right? Yeah, exactly. So is you have been doing the things that you've done, you worked with mentors and so on? Have you found any, any other outside sources like books or whatever that have really influenced you? Authors that you've learned from or that maybe you wanted to meet and get to know better, who really had a great impact on your style and what you do? Yeah,

Vanesa Cotlar 40:40so I think that it's interesting, I would say in terms of content, nowadays, I get so much of it from LinkedIn, I love reading what others are sharing in terms of their knowledge. For books I was thinking about this ahead of today, I actually have one right next to me to show you, which is called leaders eat last. And it's a Simon Sinek one. This one is one of my favorites, because it talks a lot about that concept of trust, and how trust within teams is paramount. And that if people feel safe within kind of their circle of what makes up their team, they're just going to perform a lot better than if they feel a sense of competition, or like they can't really trust the people that they're closest to in their day to day, and it was talking a lot about how by making choices that enable that trust building within a team, then you're able to essentially have better longer term outcomes too. So that's for sure one, and then the other one that I read that I loved. And it's funny, because I am, I'm still a paper person, as you can see my oldest paper next to me. But I have this this notebook. And I use it as my agenda. But in the back, I always write lots of notes on different things. And one of the books that led me to write a lot of notes was atomic habits. I don't know if you've ever heard of it. But basically, it's this really awesome book that teaches you that. Basically, if you break anything down to be small enough, anyone can start pretty much anything. And it's the whole concept of, you know, start with two minutes of it, if you're trying to get more into writing, just write for two minutes, even once a week, or two minutes everyday. Or if you want to start exercising, again, go for a two minute run, it may seem like nothing, but that's how habits are built. And it was this really interesting idea of like finding the micro moments as a means of starting different habits that can then turn into macro moments over time. And I've used that in in different ways in terms of how I work and structure my days and things that I brought into my life. And I think both of those concepts have been super helpful.

Michael Hingson 42:55I have a favorite book of mine, which is all about teamwork and team building. It's called The Five Dysfunctions of a Team by Patrick Lencioni. And oh, yes, I think that's a great idea. Because it really talks about teamwork. And it also depicts teaming in a little bit different way than a lot of people may view it, because it says it's okay to have conflict on the team, as long as you all and here's the operative part, right, trust, and trust that you're all working together. And that's, of course, what so many companies have to really learn to do is to trust as we talked about earlier.

Vanesa Cotlar 43:34Yeah, I agree. I think trust really is at the, at the core of successful teams.

Michael Hingson 43:39Yeah. So I've, I've enjoyed that book, a great deal. A lot of some of it. First, for me, I also in building teams have worked with now a guy Don's and the reality is that, that what you learn when you are deciding to if you're blind, and using a guide, dog means you're building a team, the dog has a job to do, the person has a job to do. And you have to build that trust, because dogs may love unconditionally, but they don't trust and conditioning, but they are open to trust. And that's something that we seem to learn. So much of not to do that is to be open to trust. We keep hearing about why you don't trust but the reality is that the people who are open to exploring trust are going to go a lot further. Yeah,

Vanesa Cotlar 44:26that's very interesting. And I think the day to day that you're describing is probably not the day to day most people think about you know, and it's interesting to have the different takeaways from knowing that not all of our day to day is like the same and what we can learn from each other too. Yeah.

Michael Hingson 44:43And I think that we can always learn from other people, even people who I may not trust, I will still learn. I will learn from them or or at least I'm open to learning from them. Whether they know it or not because we're always planting seeds with whatever we do, you never know who's going to be able to benefit from the seeds that we plant. Yeah, exactly. So planting seeds and, and deciding to be a student are really very important sorts of things that I advocate all the time with all of my employees that, that it's important for you to do. Well, so you've been doing this a while. And you have developed clearly a lot of experience just listening to you talk. Is there anything that you wish you had known, say, 10 years ago that you know, now that you didn't know, then that helped you a great deal? And then you'd love to go back and tell yourself? Yeah,

Vanesa Cotlar 45:48I mean, I think there's a few things have, you know, I always say, hindsight is 2020. But I, you know, I also think that, I, if

Vanesa Cotlar 46:01I take it any different path, I wouldn't be where I am today, and I love where I am today. So I think for me, when I think back to, you know, the past and some of the things that I chose, I do think you know, 10 years ago, I would have said to myself, HR is going to be a cool career, I promise, like, you think that you're not sure, because there's other things that look shinier, and better. But I promise, it's gonna be cool. That said, I don't think I would be as good as I am at my job. If I hadn't spent the beginning of my career in strategy and management consulting, because it helped me see how organizations work. It helped me really understand, you know, how CEOs how executives think, and when, ultimately, you know, five and a bit years ago, I transitioned into the HR and the tech space, I just had so much more of a base that I would have had if I just had started in in HR. So I think for me, when I think about the What advice would I give myself it's a, it's okay, to pivot. You know, I think that the concept of work has changed a lot. In the past, people used to be in a company, usually for 2030 years, if you were leaving after, you know, less than 10 years, and like, Oh, where are you going? You know, there is this concept of like, we just started job and we stay in it. And I think now that has changed so much. And it's changing even more, I would say, I remember, you know, 10 years ago, people used to stay like maybe three or four years, and you started to think about something else. Now that number is like two, you know, if someone stays more than two years, it's like, wow, that company is doing something great, because people can move around really quickly. So I think if I could go back and say something to myself, it would be like, don't be afraid to try. And if something doesn't work, it's okay to leave it. And we only learned by trying. And I think I always say that, you know, you're either winning or you're learning. And I think just getting comfortable with the fact that failure happens everywhere. But it doesn't mean you failed and your life is over. You just learn from it and try something else. I think that can be a much more motivating way to look at taking risks, try new opportunities, you know, it's not really going to be about what happens if it goes wrong, it's like, there really is no wrong, you know, if it doesn't go as planned, you you learn from it. And you take what you learn and you try again. So I think that concept of you know, being okay with trying different things be okay with pivoting and just focusing on resiliency being that underlying theme.

Michael Hingson 48:27I had the opportunity fairly recently to talk to someone who's actually, among other things, is a champion for accessibility in Canada. He works at Statistics Canada, he was one of the Deputy Director generals, or director generals, I guess. And he started at Stats Can 34 years ago, was given an opportunity. And he's blind, but they gave him the opportunity and, and said that they would provide him with the tools that he needed. And he's always stayed there. We talked about that. And one of the things that he said is that I never found anything that would really offer me a better home. Any more welcoming environment that what steps can actually his has offered. And so he's continued. Yeah, that's really amazing, because you just don't hear that very often. And you wonder how much of that is from his mental attitude. He was he was really open to and found that was a welcoming home, as opposed to well, I got to change every two or three years. And he said, I've I've had people tell me I should change but I've never found anything that was anywhere nearly so economically or at least emotionally rewarding. This thing is Tascam Yeah. That's great to hear. So he he continues to deal with statistics and math. Exciting, hopefully very interesting, but he enjoys it. And it is it's very unusual that you find anyone who stays somewhere very long, or maybe even necessarily stays in the same career. Yeah, that's true. How do you advise people about that?

Vanesa Cotlar 50:16What do you mean, like switching careers switching jobs?

Michael Hingson 50:19Well, probably somewhat both. But you know, I, I assume people do more job switching, then really going off and taking a whole new career, and then something really causes them to need to do that.

Vanesa Cotlar 50:32Yeah, I mean, I think it's important to think about kind of your own goals and where you want to go, you know, I always say, think about, you know, two, three years from now, what do you want to have learned? What do you want to have experienced? And where's the best place to do that? Is it where you're at today? Are the opportunities that you're looking for going to be there for you? And if not, if you're thinking about a new opportunity, what makes you a bit more confident that that place will give you those experiences and those skills you're looking to learn? And I think, you know, it's never an easy decision to switch jobs. So I always say, you know, think about from from the perspective of where you're looking to go think about what teams you're joining, what is it that you're giving up? What is it that you're getting, and ultimately thinking about where the best path for you is, I think is super important. I do think most people that are looking for a job are doing so for a reason, right? Like there's something in their current opportunity that just isn't feeling quite right for them, or they're looking to grow in a way that may just not be available, I think one of the things that's super important is, you know, if an organization doesn't think it's going to have the role, or the vacancy that someone is looking for, to just be honest, and to support them in that process of building their skills, so they can be prepared for a role elsewhere. I do think because careers are long, and people do switch jobs. Now, if the role that you want is not going to be available at your company, say for five years, and you think you're going to be ready next year, it's important to look at kind of what your best path is. But I always say to try to be as open as possible in those conversations. Because if your manager or your leader knows kind of what you're looking for, that's how they can be best placed to support you too.

Michael Hingson 52:10Especially if they're willing to do that unwilling to look at you advancing or dealing with your career. And that's always right. Yeah. So it's a it's an effort, but hopefully more managers than not, and I'm sure that it is true, are really looking out for your best interest in not letting ego get in the way.

Vanesa Cotlar 52:35Yeah, I agree.

Michael Hingson 52:38So, in your career thus far, you've been working in this field now for how long?

Vanesa Cotlar 52:47In the people's face about five and a half years? Yeah.

Michael Hingson 52:50So between that and the rest of your life? Is there something that you're really proud of something that you feel has been a great accomplishment for you? Yeah.

Vanesa Cotlar 53:00I think that when I think back to, you know, moments in my career, and even not just now, but I'm sure you know, 10 years from now, when I'm looking back, I think I'm in a really particularly unique moment, right now with building the culture and the team at policy me, we were just over 35 When I joined now, we're almost 65. So I think having had the opportunity to be at the center of building the culture of an organization being so involved with how a company grows, and its future has been pretty incredible. So I am really proud of the team we built, you know, when it's obviously not just me, but I, I love that I've been a part of helping create an environment where where most people are really proud to work and where they they tend to enjoy their day to day.

Michael Hingson 53:47So you, you're a builder,

Vanesa Cotlar 53:49I am a builder. Yes.

Michael Hingson 53:52Well, and there's absolutely nothing wrong with doing that. I mean, if you can do it and be successful, then go to it. That's what I would say. Well, I want to thank you very much for doing this. And for spending so much time with us today. I hope that this has been beneficial for anyone who is listening, and I hope you've enjoyed it. I certainly have, I really appreciate all the nuggets of wisdom that you'd have given us and left us with. So thank you very much for that.

Vanesa Cotlar 54:22Yeah, thank you so much for having me, Michael. It's been a lovely conversation.

Michael Hingson 54:26This has been a lot of fun. Well, I also would say, if people want to reach out and maybe contact you, maybe learn more from you or be a mentor or look for a mentor or any of the things that we've talked about today. How do they do that? Yeah,

Vanesa Cotlar 54:43my LinkedIn is the best place to find me and I think we'll probably drop that link here when this goes live, but you will but say it anyway. It's my name. So Vanesa Cotlar you can find me on LinkedIn. I'm the only person with my name, which makes me easy to find you And Vanesa is spelled with one s with one s. Yes, that creates the uniqueness. So

Michael Hingson 55:06Vanesa, C o t l a r, and then we've done any other ways, or is that the best way?

Vanesa Cotlar 55:13I think that's the best one. Yeah.

Michael Hingson 55:16Well, there you go. See that goes back to what we talked about before, why LinkedIn is so valuable. So cool. I thank you again. And I want to thank you for listening. We really appreciate it. Love to hear your thoughts about this. And Vanesa, for you and for people listening, if you know of other people that we ought to have on as guests and unstoppable mindset, please let me know I'm always looking for more people, and always looking for other ideas. I love to feel that I'm learning from every guest and every conversation that we have. And I hope that everyone else is as well. So please, pass along any thoughts that you have. And if you'd like to reach out to me feel free to do it a couple of different ways. The easiest way is Michaelhi at accessiBe A c c e s s i b e.com. Also, you could go to our podcast page, www dot Michael hingson h i n g s o n.com/podcast. And we're on LinkedIn. Michael Hingson is in LinkedIn as well. So you can reach us all sorts of different ways, but we'd love any of your thoughts, any of your comments. And as always, please give us a five star rating. We really appreciate it. Appreciate your thoughts and your comments. And I know Vanesa does as well. So, again, Vanesa, one last time, I'd like to thank you for being here with us. And anytime you want to come back, we'd love to have you back to talk. So

Vanesa Cotlar 56:43thank you again for having me My pleasure.

Michael Hingson 56:50You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visitwww.accessibe.com. AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

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I would like to introduce you to Alexandra, (Ali), Ingersoll whom I met through Josh and Sheldon at accessiBe. Ali is a C6 level quadriplegic who absolutely lives life to the fullest. Listen for yourself and see just how much Ali does in and for the world.

As a child, Ali lived in various parts of the world living often quite a life of adventure including camping at Christmas for several years on uninhabited islands in the Bahamas with her family. After high school she spent time in China. Then she came back to the U.S. where again she had and will discuss some of her adventures.

She received her college in entrepreneurship. She held a few jobs after college, but at the age of 26 while taking a shallow dive she broke her neck which is why she is an extremely active quadriplegic today.

Ali’s enthusiasm for life and her positive attitudes are invigorating. Today, among other things, she is an active advocate for the rights of persons with disabilities. As she says, if she is able to change the perceptions of one person concerning disabilities then she has done her job. Today, among other activities, she is a public speaker traveling the world to change attitudes and perceptions. I hope what Ali says to you will make a difference in your own life and world

About the Guest:

Ali Ingersoll is a corporate DEI disability strategy consultant, Ms. Wheelchair America 2023, keynote public speaker, writer, and financial assets trader.

Ali’s professional passion lies in coaching organizations on how to strategically create and implement disability inclusive policies and practices within organizations from C-suite leaders to employee resource groups. She accomplishes this through teaching how to minimize bias, increase advocacy, accountability, access, and inclusion internally.

Ali started her healthcare advocacy career after being repeatedly denied medically necessary equipment by insurance companies over the last 12 years since becoming a C6 quadriplegic and full-time wheelchair user after a shallow water diving accident. She focuses much of her advocacy work on health equity through helping people with significant disabilities get the proper approvals for the medically necessary equipment they need to not only survive in life, but to thrive in order to achieve a higher quality of life.

Disability Inclusion in our society is a priority Ali focuses on improving every day. Ali has a firm philosophy of paying it forward by giving back to the community when she is not working through collaborating with stakeholders in the government, the non-profit world, and partnering with organizations to create a more inclusive society and disability employment environment.

She believes it’s important to band together as one in order to affect the greatest change on the national stage and in local communities.

Ways to connect with Ali:

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About the Host:Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.

Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children’s Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association’s 2012 Hero Dog Awards.

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Transcription Notes

Michael Hingson 00:00Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visitwww.accessibe.comto learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.

Michael Hingson 01:20Well, and welcome once again to unstoppable mindset today, we get to interview Ali Ingersoll who is a corporate de dei strategies consultant, ms or ms. Wheelchair America. 2023. Wow. She's a keynote public speaker, writer, and even a financial assets trader trader that you are anyway Ali, welcome to unstoppable mindset. How are you,

Ali Ingersoll 01:49Michael? Thank you. It's so great to be here. Happy to have a to have a chat. Long overdue.

Michael Hingson 01:55You know, we've been working at it a while haven't we? Well, yeah, well,

Ali Ingersoll 01:58the best thing my dad always said he likes a job that starts hard. So

Michael Hingson 02:01there you go. So what is a financial assets trader? What the heck, we'll start with that. Oh,

Ali Ingersoll 02:07well, I'm day trading. On 27th. After working in politics, I learned technical analysis day trading through a program called Drummond geometry and it's basically laying multiple timeframes over one another and you can use it for stocks, bonds, forex futures, yep, sky's the limit. It's that's the simplified version.

Michael Hingson 02:30So you do that for for people or what? No, no, I've

Ali Ingersoll 02:34just do that for myself. And then I did that part time now and I switched careers. And handful of years ago into the world of disability strategy consulting, working for a handful of beautiful organizations and disability inclusive hiring practices and helping coach employee resource groups and fighting for legislation and disability and so much more. I'm like the Energizer bunny on wheels. 2.0.

Michael Hingson 02:58There you go. So what is your main day job today?

Ali Ingersoll 03:03I have multiple day jobs, I work for a hand as a consultant, I work with open inclusion half of my week, which is a beautiful, inclusive research, design organization where we work with large corporate brands to help them make products, services and digital environments more accessible through high quality qualitative research. And so I run their global community of people around the world, which is a really beautiful organization in the pan disability community. I work for a handful of organizations where I help coach their employee resource groups, all kinds of disability resource groups. And then I do I travel around the country and I do keynote speaking on purpose and Life and Health Insurance and advocacy. And that's my professional and my advocacy life. I fight health insurance companies for health equity to get people the medically necessary equipment they need to not only survive in life, but to thrive, but I have a beautiful coalition of incredible people and networks and organizations. So nothing I do is alone. It's always a team effort with the ultimate mission of paying it forward human kindness empathy and really helping people understand that disabilities that one club that doesn't discriminate any one of us can join it for any reason. I hope you don't but if you do, it behooves all of us in society and corporations and just being a decent human being to pay attention to these issues for those that move think sense? differently. Can you get differently

Michael Hingson 04:32she can't you find something to do in the free time.

Ali Ingersoll 04:35I volunteer on a lot of nonprofit boards.

Michael Hingson 04:38There you go. Well, it really is a pleasure to have you here and first we met through Josh and accessiBe which is kind of fun. Yes. And so I really enjoyed that. So tell me a little bit about ally growing up, you know, the early ally and all that kind of love. Got where you are. Might as well go back to the beginning as they say, Yeah, I

Ali Ingersoll 04:59only get Do you an abbreviated version, home base and life was always a very out Island in the Bahamas. My parents started building a place there in the 70s before I was even a thought in their mind. And so I was grew up as a beach bum girl and I having two older brothers and every wanting us to be too girly, and I went to boarding school at a very young age at 10. With a lot of Catholic nuns, I grew up all around the world. My mom is German, my dad is English American. So had the beautiful opportunity to travel the world quite a lot. And I engage in a lot of wilderness survival programs. Basically what that means is I voluntarily kicked my own butt to sweat it out in the middle of the Australian Outback, hiking for hundreds of miles with an 80 pound pack. I don't know what I was thinking. But it taught me a lot of really great leadership skills and endurance and resilience and grit, essentially. And then at 1617, I graduated high school at a young age and I moved over to China for no good reason. Then I was stubborn, and I didn't want to go to university yet. And over there, I lived and I worked. I went to jail over there for a while I dated Italian kickboxing instructor who didn't speak English. I didn't speak Italian. So I learned Chinese very quickly. I was finally dragged back to the United States to go to college, where I majored in entrepreneurship. And I got a degree in business administration, from the University of Miami, where I started working with the Rockefeller family and I opened up a nonprofit organization that got young people and underrepresented and underserved communities active in the civic engagement process. So as a beautiful use of my entrepreneur, entrepreneur, entrepreneurship degree, I'd like to say I knew what I was doing. But I was 23. So I had no idea I made it up as I went along. It seemed to work quite well at the time. And then I got slightly jaded by politics, and that's when I moved back home to the Bahamas. When I was 2520 26, and started to learn day trading. And then August 2010, and 27, I took a shallow water dive and broke my neck, leaving me a C six quadriplegic and basically spent the next seven years six and a half, seven years, in and out of hospitals with every medical complication, you could probably think of the names might might are a little daunting. And so I was still working full time, but very lonely existence, no disability community and moved back to China for spinal surgery and spent a couple of years over there, which is that story would take a few hours. And I moved back to Raleigh in 2015 16, and spent a whole year in bed with the stage four pressure sore on my backside, which is how I really got into disability advocacy, really fighting health insurance for medically necessary equipment, took that work nationally and worked with a lot of beautiful organizations. And that one mean the title of Miss wheelchair America 2023, which I'm about to pass off the title this week, to the new title holder, the competition is going on at the moment. And about three, four years ago, I dove into the corporate world of diversity, equity and inclusion and absolutely love it. I get to meet cool people with the same shared mission and purpose and passion. That's what keeps me going, despite all the secondary complications that are mostly unseen. Actually. being paralyzed is easy. You know, I get to drive a wheelchair. There's so much behind the scenes and under the hood that actually affects your daily quality of life. Yeah,

Michael Hingson 08:33yeah. And driving a wheelchair with this C six. Issue is a whole lot different than being a parent and being able to push wheels. And yeah,

Ali Ingersoll 08:45I couldn't drive my wheelchair for the first couple of months, I broke my toe, I ran over people and I cried to my mom, I said, Well, how am I going to be paralyzed if I can't drive a wheelchair?

Michael Hingson 08:55Well, I remember. So my wife was T three para. And so she did well with a manual chair until like 2002 When shoulder started to give out and as her die as a physical medicine doctor said, you know, the shoulders don't come with a lifetime warranty. And so she graduated to a power chair. And I remember her starting to get used to driving a power chair and had some some challenges. Remember the old song she'll have fun fun fun till her daddy takes the teebird away. Oh, great. So my, my wife's best friend Linda and I created the song. She'll have fun fun fun till we all take the joystick away. She Oh yes. She was a little dangerous for a while we were in. She was in a restaurant. First day driving the chair and actually hit a table and almost knocked it over among other things. So, but she got better at it. Well, I still have

Ali Ingersoll 09:59plastic rail I was on the sides of my walls even now 13 years later, because there's just that moment when I'm zipping around the corner. I'm like, oh, gosh, I'm the one that has to pay for it as a homeowner, so let me be careful. Yeah.

Michael Hingson 10:09Yeah. Well, we we haven't we've never did do that. And Karen passed away this last November. I'm sorry to hear that. Well, thank you. I appreciate that. Well, we were married for two years. So as I tell people, no matter what anyone says, She's up there monitoring. And if I misbehave, I'm going to hear about it. So Oh, absolutely. Gotta be a good kid. But you know, it, it is, in a lot of ways, and it is appropriate to not necessarily think that we're in a negative situation, but I think it's was awesome. And I think that she did well with it. She liked the person she was she was good in her own skin. And that's as much as anybody can ask her.

Ali Ingersoll 10:51I couldn't agree more. It's a beautiful, it's a beautiful sentiment.

Michael Hingson 10:55So she, she she did well, but I think she she had a pretty bad sore last July, July of 2022.

Ali Ingersoll 11:06So sores are no joke. Oh, my gosh. And

Michael Hingson 11:08it. She mentioned he had to go to the hospital and was in for a month. And I think that kind of started the eventual slide, if you will, because she also had rheumatoid arthritis. And she couldn't take the normal infusion for RA. While she was getting rid of the the sore because the infection would have been coming back. So yes, it was a problem. So it's just one of those things and gotten accepted. So we did this life. Yes. Such as life absolutely

Ali Ingersoll 11:38adapt, you overcome and you adjust, you have to match it, you have to adapt to the unknown every day. Yeah,

Michael Hingson 11:45I wish more people really understood that, you know, we all hear about how change is all around us and all that. But the reality is, the other side that people say is I hate change. I don't want to change. I don't want things to be doing well, it doesn't work that way, folks.

Ali Ingersoll 11:58Know that that is just life. But sometimes you hear one, even when I'm on stage I, if I can affect one person's changing perspective or purpose, just one, that is a huge win. For me. It's never about me, when I get up on stage. It's just giving. Sometimes I'll listen to an audible book and I will they say myself, Wow, that one sentence. And then it just takes me on this incredible tangent. And I'm like, yes. So you know, it only takes one person whether you're reading a line of a book, or you hear them on stage, or you listen to them on audiobook, whatever it may be. Yeah,

Michael Hingson 12:32I mean, that's what I've always felt if I can change one person's perceptions, I've done my job. Yeah, great. That's, that's as good as it gets. And when you've got a whole bunch of people who, who really changed and you know that they've changed because of the way they behave and acts going forward, then you know, you've really accomplished something which is so cool. I agree. Well, what is your favorite childhood memory, you must have some good memories growing up, you remember that?

Ali Ingersoll 13:02One of my favorite childhood memories is growing up on a very high on the Bahamas, and we were all over the place around the globe. We will come together at Christmas. And we had a power bowl and 33 foot Powerbot and there's six of us in my immediate family at the time. And we would go on these Robinson Caruso camping trips, we would pick a letter 700 Islands to the Bahamas, most of them are unpopulated, and we would pick a location and we would set up campsite during Christmas and my mom would get battery operated lights around a little like a little Katarina like palm tree and bring these wrap presents. We would go spearfishing for our food and build sandcastles and get bitten by scorpions by building fires and read jokes around the fire and nighttime. And it was just the most incredible family time and it's so unusual. And I just attribute all of that to just having I feel blessed to have such incredible parents.

Michael Hingson 13:56Yeah, being bitten by a scorpion is no fun.

Ali Ingersoll 14:00Well fortunately in the Bahamas, most things are not poisonous, they hurt you swell up, you're not gonna die. Right? You may you may swear a little bit but

Michael Hingson 14:09yeah, I have not been even though I live on the desert and lived on the desert, most good part of my life, but I just assume not. That's okay. I've been close to black widows and my brother in law, when he was growing up actually caught a Black Widow and just held it in his hand and took it in and showed his parents and said, see what I got. And everybody was well, we could get rid of that property you're gonna get bit. Here's an amazing guy and he still is he's a very adventurous sort of person. Yeah. I've been close to them, but I've I've not been bitten and would rather not be as I say it's okay. Yes. I think there are always experiences to have and I don't need to have that one to understand that. That's okay. Well, so you lived in China. And what did He learned from living in China.

Ali Ingersoll 15:03Wow. So many lessons that actually taught me this incredible lesson in humility and diversity and culture in that. I saw such atrocities in China at a very young age that by the time I went to university I didn't I couldn't connect with anyone my age anymore. fraternity parties and sororities and that college life because I saw children whose hands had been cut off on purpose when there were children when they were babies to be better beggars. I saw people someone that was shot in the street. I went to jail in a northern Mongolian city called Harbin, right, right on the border of China as an ice city. I didn't do anything illegal. I just forgot my passport. I couldn't pay the hotel bill. But it was really the Italian boyfriends fault, not mine. But I was in jail with these women. And I called my mom with two minutes left on my phone call my phone card mom, remember, this was in 2000. So right there phone cards right in the old Nokia cell phone. And I said, Mom, I love you. I'm going to jail if you don't hear from me in a week, call the State Department but give me a chance to get out. And I was in jail with these women and freezing temperatures. And I was like, I understood China. I you know, I speak Chinese. And I listen to their stories. And there's no due process and China in a communist country. And many of them had been in jail for years. So I had such a drastic perspective and the change in the way I saw people, and it profoundly impacted me to this day.

Michael Hingson 16:32I think it's interesting. I've talked to a number of people who've had the opportunity to travel to a number of different countries. And I have as well, I haven't seen the atrocities that that you have. But it is so wonderful to travel to different countries and see how they live, how they behave, listen to their broadcasts and listen to their attitudes. Did you know even in this country, it is so different going from, say the West Coast to the East Coast.

Ali Ingersoll 17:03There's atrocities right here in our backyard as well. There are there are. And

Michael Hingson 17:08we don't deal for example, with disabilities very well, which is so unfortunate. Yeah,

Ali Ingersoll 17:13I was on a world. I was on a global world forum for disabilities. It was a webinar. And there's some folks in Africa some paraplegics and I was explaining Medicare, Medicare, Medicare and Medicaid and the systems and how you have to fight for the number of catheters you get as an example, as someone who uses full time catheters. And they said, That's really interesting. I didn't know that perspective. I thought America was a man of the land of milk and honey, for health insurance. I'm like, Ah, it's probably better than Africa where you are, but it's different perspectives. Well,

Michael Hingson 17:46and of course, we still face overall as people with some disabilities. And I'll explain that in a second. But an unemployment rate among employable people still have in the 65 to 70% range, and there's no reason for that to do I agree. But here's what they do. And I say some disabilities, because and I've said it on this podcast a number of times, I believe everyone has a disability and the disability that most people have is their light dependent. Why isn't that something that we consider disability because ever since the electric light bulb was invented, the fact is, we've spent a lot of money a lot of time and a lot of thought, to make lights available on demand. So mostly sighted people's disability is covered up. But the reality is, as soon as the power goes out, the disability rears its head again. So the fact is, everyone has a disability, whether we like I couldn't, I couldn't agree more. Right? Yep. Yeah. And so it is an issue,

Ali Ingersoll 18:46seasonal depression, even seasonal anxiety. That's a disability temporary or not? Yeah,

Michael Hingson 18:51I know. It didn't bother me so much. But it did. Karen, when we were in New Jersey, we had some times that was really cloudy in the spring and so on. And she she got depressed by it and acknowledged it and work through it. But still, it's one of the things that you got to understand it's different, different things for different people, but it doesn't mean we shouldn't understand them and deal with them.

Ali Ingersoll 19:14Couldn't agree more. Well, well said. So,

Michael Hingson 19:16you have so you went to university. Where did you go?

Ali Ingersoll 19:21I spent two years in Los Angeles in occidental small liberal arts college majoring economics. i Well, I'm not sure if I should say this on a podcast, but I'm going to anyway, I have gotten way too much trouble and looked at the Playboy Mansion for a while. I realized this is probably not the best way to go in life. So I transferred to South Beach because that's so much better to the University of Miami but I did take I was taking life seriously. And the University of Miami has this incredible entrepreneurship program with this amazing business plan competition. It was my dream to win it and I transfer Are their full force and just really focused on school

Michael Hingson 20:05and every opportunity. So what was your degree in sign of

Ali Ingersoll 20:09entrepreneurship actually how to start and run a business?

Michael Hingson 20:14So did you out of college and go do that? Or what did you do?

Ali Ingersoll 20:18Um, yes. So after winning, I did win the business plan competition with my partner. So that was exciting. But we didn't think I thought I was on top of the world. I thought a job was just gonna come to me and I was an amazing rock star. Yeah, not a 22. Nobody's a rock star. And so I didn't know I was kind of living. I know, I was living off the money I'd won. And my first job out of college was a last 24 hours. It was for a pyramid scheme, selling office supplies. And I really got hung it i and after the first day, I was like, Oh, God, what happened? So I floundered around for a bit. And then my name got passed around through some friends in the political fundraising world to Justin Rockefeller of the Rockefeller family, who's a lovely human being. And he was with his partner was starting a civic engagement nonprofit called Generation engage. And they're opening up multiple locations around the country. And they asked me if they I would like to open up the Florida chapter. And I said, Yes, that would be amazing. I got to put my fundraising skills, political skills, networking, community building skills, no idea what I was doing made it up every single day, but it seemed to work well.

Michael Hingson 21:33So what did you do after that? Or how long did you do that?

Ali Ingersoll 21:36I did that a handful of years up until I was 26. And then I just got jaded by politicians a little bit in the political process to be completely honest. And I wanted to find a profession that I could be independent and figure out how to help other people. And my dad suggested, be a day trader, put yourself through a 12,000 page course, I will help you with macroeconomic discussions. But you got to do the work, kid. And I said, I can do that. And so I moved back to the Bahamas, I helped take care of the property there in exchange for, you know, room and board. And I really, I mean, it was wonderful life was perfect. I couldn't I remember saying to my mom on the day broke my neck that I wouldn't change one thing about my life, Mom, it's so perfect. And then 10 minutes later, to that dive.

Michael Hingson 22:22And so do you still think you wouldn't trade anything?

Ali Ingersoll 22:28You know, it's, you know,

Ali Ingersoll 22:29it's a really good question. It's one of those what if questions, yeah, I can't change it. I don't think like that. I don't think well, if I could trade this, you know, if I could have my hands or what I rather have, where my feet. I mean, it is what it is, it was an accident. I never harbored anger or resentment. This is a life I've been given. I've always had a quirky dark humor, sense of attitude with loving to build people up and loving to help people, I just took me a long time to figure out how to do that, because I quite literally was a medical survival mode for seven straight years. So I didn't have the ability to do that. So I have a very analytical strategic mind when I was living from crisis to crisis to crises. And I, I feel like I make the most of what I can. And you know, the most the biggest thing that gets me as a chronic pain, it's like burning pins and needles from the chest down on my arms. And I combat that with probably overworking by helping people mentoring people and meditating.

Michael Hingson 23:32And meditating and taking that person on time is always a very useful thing to do.

Ali Ingersoll 23:36I'm trying to draw more boundaries in my life and figure out how to do that. I'm not brilliant at it. But I work very hard at

Michael Hingson 23:44what you're you're accomplishing a lot. And you You sound very comfortable in what you do. And I agree with you, you can deal with what if all day long, but the bottom line is, you don't have any control over that. Well, you do have control over.

Ali Ingersoll 23:55You do. Here's the thing, many of us have died multiple times with significant disabilities. At the end of the day, whenever my wife comes, and I'm very comfortable with death. I want to not only think about necessarily how hard I worked, but whose lives I've affected how I've affected their lives. And if I could be so blessed and lucky to when I'm gone that one person takes something I said and it changes their life or impacts them in some way. Or they spread that message to their child or their friend or someone in the future. That's a legacy I'm comfortable with even if I'm gone tomorrow. Yeah,

Michael Hingson 24:31I know exactly what you're saying. I was blown away earlier this year. I did a speech in 2014 in Washoe County, Nevada, was a safety and emergency preparedness. Oh, yeah. And earlier this year, one of the audience attendees wrote an article about my speech and what I said

Ali Ingersoll 24:56oh my god years later, Miko wow

Michael Hingson 24:59and and He didn't, he said all what I would think are the right things and so on. But that's incredible. And as I said, if I can influence one person, I've done my job. And I'm, I'm very happy with that. So, and I know there have been other times that, that at least I've had the blessing of learning that that people did discover something from what I said. So that's pretty cool. So I understand exactly what you're saying. And, you know, whatever is gonna happen is gonna happen.

Ali Ingersoll 25:28I couldn't agree more I you know, I used to fake it till I made it, right. And then I turn that into fake it till you become it. And I really did become the Corky quad dark humor enthusiast. And then I've since changed in the last year to face it till you ace it. And I truly, authentically know that and believe that about myself.

Michael Hingson 25:51And you can't do better than that. I mean, that makes Hmm, that's really cool. Well, even through all that. What's what's probably the biggest failure biggest thing that you've ever had to face in real life?

Ali Ingersoll 26:05Oh, my gosh, I feel 80% of the time, people. People think I succeed. They're like, wow, you're doing so much. It's because I throw a lot at the wall, and maybe 20 plastic rails I know, or maybe 10% works out. But I literally I do I feel all the time from professional and personal things I go through. But because I have so many things in the works that when one thing doesn't work out, I don't know if I'm genetically wired this way. But I'm like, Okay, that didn't work out. Bummer. I'm gonna move on to the next thing. But I think that might just be me. Yeah.

Michael Hingson 26:44Well, well, you're you're wired is you're wired and and then as long as you can deal with it and learn from it. I mean,

Ali Ingersoll 26:49we could spend an hour listing off my failures. But I mean, those are the lessons I've taken from the failures. Well,

Michael Hingson 26:55and I still am a firm believer in failure is such a horrible word to use, because it's really a learning opportunity. And

Ali Ingersoll 27:02well, I learned, I live by the Winston Churchill quote, I repeat it every morning to myself, that success consists of moving from failure to failure, without lack of enthusiasm. Yeah.

Michael Hingson 27:13Yeah. What are the failures? They're just learning opportunities. And so it didn't work out like you wanted? What do you do about it? What do you learn from it? And that's really what it should be? Exactly. So you learn, you go forward, and you go from there? Well, so given everything that's happened in your life, if you had a chance to go back and talk to your younger self, what would you teach her? God, or at least advise her whether she wants to learn it or not, but what would you advise her? Um,

Ali Ingersoll 27:42what would I advise? You know, what? It's a really profound question. There's only one piece of advice I would give myself, I have this philosophy, and whether one agrees with it or not, is different. I work hard, and I play hard. So I do things oftentimes, for the story. It's not always a great idea. So sometimes, I just came back from Costa Rica, and I did some fun, wild, wacky adventures that may not have been the safest. But I said, you know, what I'm safe is to that I've planned for whatever is gonna happen, it's gonna happen. The only piece of advice I would give myself is, I would say, after college, I would have taken and during the last semester, taking more opportunities to network and build a network of great human beings to have helped me earlier on in life because I meant to go and help a lot of new people. And I think it's really important to have a professional mentor, and I did not have that I did not build that. I didn't put that effort forward. And so after college for a good six or seven months, I floundered. And I had no purpose and I didn't know where I was going. And people think well of America, there's so many opportunities, and I think that sometimes is a really big problem and challenge for young people. Because there are so many choices and you don't know where to go. And that that's probably the only thing I would change. Honestly, not even my experiences that I will keep private from the Playboy Mansion, not even though I would change.

Michael Hingson 29:13Well, that's all part of what your life was, right?

Ali Ingersoll 29:16It was exactly. And

Michael Hingson 29:18so, you know, if you could change them, then you wouldn't be the same you that you are.

Ali Ingersoll 29:23Precisely I couldn't agree more.

Michael Hingson 29:26So that that's okay. So, you know, what you do a lot. You are a quadriplegic, and so on. So, how do you how do you do what you do during the day? What, like, what is your morning routine? Like, how do you I am

Ali Ingersoll 29:44I'm a military, like, I'm like, I'm a regimented military Sergeant in my own life, but when I do have play time, even if it's only for eight hours or five hours, whatever happens in those five hours, I will go to the moon and back. It doesn't matter. But when I'm in my serious work Work Mode, I wake up every morning at 5am caregivers come in as a quadriplegic, they helped me with bowel and bladder and getting dressed. And then I exercise 60 to 90 minutes every morning, five days a week, no matter what at a home gym, I have. And then I get up to my screens at about seven or 730. In the morning, I work all day, unless I have a doctor's appointment or I'm traveling, whatever that may be. And around 330 or four every single day, due to so much cervical neck pain and other pains I have from surgeries, I actually work with my caregivers, again, do more exercise or take a shower or whatever it might be. And then I work in my bed, which is a total hospital electrical bed and a queen size is very cool. One just looks like a normal bed. And I work from a laptop and my bed because that my body needs that for my pain perspective. And then I'll work until late, I just have to switch position. So Monday through Friday, I'm pretty regimented about that. And I don't change that. And I don't know if people are gonna like me or not after they hear this. But I have the opposite problem of ADD, where I have this intense focus. And I think I'm genetically wired like that, where when I get in front of the screen, or I'm writing an article, I'm working on a project or working for a client, I can just sit there and I just won't move until it's done.

Michael Hingson 31:18Yeah, you know, I had a job for several years in San Diego County when in Vista, California. Well, Ashley was in Carlsbad. And what I loved about the job was I was first into the company, every day, I was in by sixth selling to the East Coast. And I loved the fact that I had the building to myself. And even after people started arriving, I ignored people wasn't very sociable until at least after nine. Because I was busy doing what I needed to do. And even then, I work to staying very focused, I understand exactly what you're saying, when you got a job to do, you got to do the job.

Ali Ingersoll 31:55Well, that's it too. I've actually listened to this book right now called the one thing, I'm trying to strategically design my life a little bit in a more streamlined way for 2024. And they were just talking this morning on this chapter about like cutting out four hours of your day uninterrupted no matter what to focus on whatever it is that one thing that you really want to focus on, and I was listening to, and I'm like, wow, I do that. I've done that forever. I already do that. And it really does help. And that creates a habit. And through the habit that creates a routine and it just becomes part of you.

Michael Hingson 32:31Well, and you you spend time thinking, and I'm sure that there is time during every day that you spend time analyzing what you do or how the day went. And then what do you do different tomorrow? Or how could you improve whatever you were doing? Absolutely.

Ali Ingersoll 32:47Yeah, well, you're a car. It's a constant iterative process of life. Right? Absolutely. And that's why people with disabilities are some of the most creative problem solvers on the planet, because we literally sometimes have no idea what's gonna hit us in the morning when we wake up or in the middle of the night for that matter. Right.

Michael Hingson 33:05And so you again, you also learn to accept a lot. Oh, I heard somebody who did a survey, and did a study of blind people using the internet as opposed to sighted people who said that blind people tended to be more patient with internet websites, because a lot of the times they're mostly not accessible. So we kind of learn how to muddle through, but we all can take advantage of some of those things and become better and stronger. But we look for everything to be handed to us. And that doesn't help.

Ali Ingersoll 33:38No, but I mean, I've learned you just through my disability, infinite patience. So, you know, it's it's like, I have a friend that just broke their arm. And it's been a few weeks and she's in a cast, and she's so impatient. What is it gonna get better? I'm like, well, everything that's medical generally is measured in three months, time periods, right by the time we're done with rehab. And that's the same with disability with spinal surgeries. Everything is measured in many, many months or sometimes a year. You know, and so that that has taught me infinite patience, which is helpful.

Michael Hingson 34:09Yeah, it's very helpful. People challenging people. Yeah. Who are typically very impatient. Yes. What technologies do you use to do your job during the day?

Ali Ingersoll 34:23I'm from a tech from a program perspective. i My heart soul is Dragon speaking naturally. dictation software without a doubt, and I have. I do my hands are paralyzed, but I have wrist extension, but I can't. So I grip I can raise my wrist up but I can't raise them. I can't pick them up wrist flexors, so I can type upside down with my knuckles. But I have a giant Chester Creek easier. It's called like easy eyes keyboard. So like this big yellow with big yellow keys that older folks use. So So are they need enlargement, so I can type it there. And I have a Kensington mouse, which is a giant trackball, and I have a both my little paws. That's what I call my paralyzed hands. And it has two buttons on each side with a big trackball in the middle. And I'm pretty self sufficient. And I can use most other programs like most other able bodied folks, I don't have I've tried to eye gaze tracking software, I didn't work for me, I don't really need it. I've tried using Dragon as a function of like as using it as a mouse and going across the screen. That took too long for me. So you know, there are some programs I have problems with, like, for example, with Dragon, Microsoft 365 does not play well. They do not play net well together. So I have to purchase all standalone software programs, which can be expensive, which is expensive and can be very challenging. I

Michael Hingson 35:55understand that there is a sale going on through at least Thursday, and it's a Liberty sale from Microsoft, you can get Microsoft Office 2021, the full software package, not 365, but actually the software and have it for 35 bucks, which is interesting. Yeah,

Ali Ingersoll 36:12I have Office 2019. I have a philosophy that's not broken. Don't fix it yet. So

Michael Hingson 36:18yeah, unless there are enough new features in the upgrade that makes it worthwhile. I'm the same way with iPhone. Yeah, I don't go off and buy a new iPhone just because there's a new one coming out. Now, not only new features, but new features that I can use that make it worthwhile upgrading unless something really feels in the heart.

Ali Ingersoll 36:38Exactly.

Michael Hingson 36:41But it is it is a challenge. So you. So you use though all of that pretty well. I know Josh uses one bluffing SIP stick, as opposed to being able to do a keyboard.

Ali Ingersoll 36:54Exactly, yeah, he has a whole mouse set as well. And what I do as well is I have a laptop, and I get a small it's like $80 It's called pluggable, it's a docking station. So I'll plug all my periphery devices into pluggable, I have multiple video cables, I have three screens, I have a keyboard, but then I can just unplug everything very quickly. And I can take my laptop and travel, it's I can use my laptop fine. But it's hard one screen because I have to click click clicking with a lot of my shoulder challenges, it's a lot of clicking it really hurts. So for me, the biggest thing in a day, from a digital accessibility perspective is how can I reduce the number of keystrokes and the number of clicking I have to do on a website or any document for that matter? Yeah.

Michael Hingson 37:42And they're still not doing a great job of making websites overall, least from the outset. Accessible, which is why companies like excessive beer making such a big difference.

Ali Ingersoll 37:54Yep, there are a lot of companies out there I mean digital, except that we have a long way to go, just progress over perfection. And you're never gonna make everyone happy, and that not one solution is going to fit all. And we also have to be mindful of that as consumers, I think and also applaud companies that are making an effort and are willing to learn when they get it wrong, because no one's gonna get it right. We're gonna get it wrong all the time. But it's about iterating and improving it through AI and very smart individuals. And AI

Michael Hingson 38:24is going to make an and is already making a significant difference. It's like anything can be negative, or it can be positive, depending on how we deal with it and how we use it.

Ali Ingersoll 38:34Absolutely.

Michael Hingson 38:36How do we convince people, though, ultimately, that be inclusive, like with internet websites with providing products and all the other things to make a company and jobs accessible? How do we get people to understand that that really should be an is part of the cost of doing business?

Ali Ingersoll 38:57I mean, simple education. Well, three words education, advocacy and awareness. And it's, it's podcasts and webinars like this, and showing people in real time because, you know, the thing about human nature is just like you have a belief systems are a value system, it's very hard to change. And there are a lot of folks I run into all the time like, no, that's not a good work. Did you read what happened years ago, and that what that company did? Okay, yes. Have you seen the improvements said you said company have made has made and it's showing slowly and being finding people that are open minded to kind of pave the way through that. And you're only going to do that through collaboration and through partnerships, specifically with a lot of community organizations, especially national ones. Yeah. But you have sometimes you know, sometimes national, I'm part of them. Sometimes the answer organizations are set in their ways as well. So you'd have to start at the local chapters, and work your way up there.

Michael Hingson 39:56Yeah, it's

Ali Ingersoll 39:57and usability testing. In an inclusive surveys, and working with, you know, an inclusive design and having diary studies and actually doing the research and including people with all disabilities and part of the process.

Michael Hingson 40:17Yeah. And there's something that we all need to remember that is national organizations, like everything else is really something that's composed of people, and people will be the way they are.

Ali Ingersoll 40:29And it's about being pleasantly persistent. You keep following up until someone answers you, but you do it with a smile.

Michael Hingson 40:34Yeah, you got to do it with the patient.

Ali Ingersoll 40:37And it's no different than working with politicians. Yeah,

Michael Hingson 40:41except that I think they take a dumb pill to become politicians. I haven't figured out when that happens. But they must, you know,

Ali Ingersoll 40:48I plead the fifth on that one.

Michael Hingson 40:49I'm still with Mark Twain Congress. Crandall, benevolent asylum for them. So So yeah, I know what you're saying. I have met. However, over the years, some really good not only well meaning, but intelligent politicians who really had principles, but they're, they're not as common as one middle life. And that's, that's unfortunate, but it's the way the world is. And that's what we got to deal with a grade. So we cope. Well, I know you've got things you've got to go do. So I'm not going to prolong this and then make your boss come in.

Ali Ingersoll 41:26And I go, we could chat.

Michael Hingson 41:28I know we could. Well, we'll have to, we should do another one. I

Ali Ingersoll 41:31would love to do a follow up. Yes, of course, count me in.

Michael Hingson 41:35Well, I will, I will definitely do that. But I want to thank you for being here with us today and taking your time and giving us a lot of good insights. So thank you for that. And I want to thank you all for listening out there. We'd love to hear from you feel free to Well, let me ask you, Ali, how can people reach out to you and maybe contact you if they want to?

Ali Ingersoll 41:54You know, I think I have my cell phone all over the internet. So you could find me even if I didn't want to be found. But I have a website called the quirky quad quirky quad.com And it's a q u i r k y quad.com You can find me on LinkedIn ally Ingersoll, Ali Ingersoll, and I'm on Instagram Ali, Ingersoll, Facebook, so pretty much just type it in and I'll pop up somewhere. So you can hunt down, you can hunt me down, although I do fight on Google with. There's another ally Ingersoll in Raleigh, North Carolina, who's an investigative reporter and I know her so we always joke around fighting on on articles together on Google.

Michael Hingson 42:32That sounds like a lot of fun. Yeah, she's great spread rumors.

Ali Ingersoll 42:37People are like Ali, wait, you switched careers? Again? You're an investigative reporter. I'm like, no, no, I want to not me.

Michael Hingson 42:43Or you could just say well, yeah, didn't you know,

Ali Ingersoll 42:46I know. As a Canadian, so I would say, there

Michael Hingson 42:49you go. Well, thank you all for listening. I hope you'll give us a five star rating wherever you're listening to us. And if you'd like to reach out to me, I'd love to hear from you. You can reach me at Michaelhi at accessibe A c c e s s i b e.com Or go to our podcast page www dot Michael hingson.com/podcast and hingson is h i n g s o n . So love to hear from you. But Ali one last time, I want to thank you for being here and we will do another one of these. We'll schedule it and do it.

Ali Ingersoll 43:18I would love that Michael. It's a pleasure. Thank you for having me. I hope everyone listen listening to one change in perspective, whether it's Michael myself or both of us.

Michael Hingson 43:33You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visitwww.accessibe.com. AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

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Make no mistake Katya Davydova has her own times of not being joyful and dealing with challenges. However, as you will hear on this episode, Katya works to create and spread joy. How? Well, it starts with a smile. I am going to leave it to her to tell you more.Katya was born in Uzbekistan and emigrated to America at the age of five. She says she always has been a curious person and became quite fascinated with how people interacted with each other. After obtaining a MS degree with highest honors in organizational development and knowledge management from George Mason University she began to work in earnest to help improve company organizational structures. She relocated to the Los Angeles area just before the advent of Covid.She not only has her “day job” concerning organizational development, but she also is a coach who is ready to consult with high achieving clients to teach them how to have better strategic thinking and how to create better micro-habits.Katya offers many positive and thought provoking life lessons we all can find useful. Along the way in our episode she also turns the tables and asks me questions related to our discussions. This episode is quite fun. I hope you enjoy it.

About the Guest:

Katya Davydova’s mission is to create a more joyful world.

She is an organizational and leadership development expert, igniting workplaces like Google, Netflix, and Dropbox, where humans can flourish. As an expert facilitator, she teaches managers, executives, and individual contributors essential skills like strategic thinking, communication, and feedback.

Katya is also a coach for high achievers, empowering them to bridge the gap between best practices and actual follow-through by sustainable, micro-habits. Her first book, Joy in Plain Sight, explores celebrating wonder in the ordinary against the backdrop of our always-on, always-busy world.

A believer in big ideas that can make ours a kinder world, Katya has the honor (and sheer fun!) of speaking to audiences about organizational development, human flourishing, and habit-building (especially on joy!). She’s presented at engagements like The Massachusetts Conference for Women, Chief Learning Officer Exchange, ODinLA, and is a TEDx speaker.

Finally, she loves learning. Katya received her BA in cognitive science and psychology from the University of Virginia (Echols Scholar, Phi Beta Kappa), and her MS with highest honors in organizational development and knowledge management from George Mason University. Her prior expertise is in people operations, learning and development, higher education, and consulting. When she’s not working, you can find her exploring both city streets and especially wild trails, adding to her collection of plants, and learning about people in their everyday moments.

Ways to connect with Katya:

LinkedIn:https://www.linkedin.com/in/katyadavydova/Contact:katya@katyadavydova.comWebsite:https://katyadavydova.com/Instagram:https://www.instagram.com/joyinplainsight/Book:https://www.amazon.com/dp/B09ZDPJ23L/Newsletter sign-up:https://katyadavydova.us20.list-manage.com/subscribe?u=8a2e9cd879ce206da20e2fd22&id=401d3a17f7Other Links/work:

About the Host:Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.

Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children’s Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association’s 2012 Hero Dog Awards.

https://michaelhingson.comhttps://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/https://twitter.com/mhingsonhttps://www.youtube.com/user/mhingsonhttps://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/

accessiBe Linkshttps://accessibe.com/https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBehttps://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/

https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/

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Transcription Notes

Michael Hingson 00:00Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visitwww.accessibe.comto learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.

Michael Hingson 01:21Well, hi, and guess what? Yes, you're right. It is time for another episode of unstoppable mindset. We're inclusion diversity in the unexpected wheat, whatever that may be in whatever we may encounter. Today we get to chat with Katya Davydova. And I love something that Katya Katya has on her bio, which is that she wants to create a more joyful world. And it doesn't get better than that I like joyful worlds. And all that goes with it. I think we spend too much time grousing and complaining about all the things we don't have control over anyway. So for me, it's always don't worry about what you can't control focus on the things you can and the rest will take care of themselves, which I think is always true. However, we'll see what Katya has to say about that. Anyway, welcome to unstoppable mindset.

Katya Davydova 02:08Thank you so much, Michael. It is truly a joy, a delight and a pleasure. All three of the trifecta to be here. Thanks so much for having me.

Michael Hingson 02:14Well, I really appreciate you agreeing to do this. And coming on. Why don't we start with talking about kind of the early Catia growing up and all that stuff?

Katya Davydova 02:23Sure. Sure. Shall we begin from 13 point 8 billion years ago, the Big Bang?

Michael Hingson 02:28We can do that? A very long time. How sure are you it was only 13 point 8 billion years. And

Katya Davydova 02:35now you're asking the real questions. And are there multiple universes? The Quantum? Right, let's go there could be definitely good. I think just to keep it like you said what's within our control? Control? Happy to start at the beginning.

Michael Hingson 02:50time ago.

Katya Davydova 02:54Exactly. So the words right out of my mouth, Michael. That's exactly right. But I'll give the overall executive summary. And it's so funny to hear myself say the word executives, I work with executives that just did yesterday and bled over but anyway, was born in Uzbekistan, which was at the time some people have called it a third world country, I think the term now is developing or developed, developing rather country. And it was a time of darkness. And then I came to the States. Happy to happy to carry the conversation, Michael, where you would like for it to go? How do you

Michael Hingson 03:30go ahead. So tell us about you know, maybe what you remember a little bit about growing up in this Mecca, Stan? And then coming here and what it was like and all that. Sure. Sure. Yeah. So I framework is it were

Katya Davydova 03:41a framework, I you know, I love a good framework, honestly, what we'll talk about frameworks and principles in a little bit. But as a kid, I was used to, I guess, I was gonna say I was used to like not having too much, because, you know, we grew up in a little bit of, I don't call poverty necessarily, but not not having as much abundance as a, quote unquote, traditional American childhood might offer. But we my family, and I were lucky enough to emigrate to the States when I was a kid. And came here not knowing a lick of English except for please, and thank you. And where's the bathroom?

Michael Hingson 04:18There are three essential, that's important one, too. Yeah, of

Katya Davydova 04:21course, of course, he got to know where the important places are. And there's a little bit of gratitude and asking for help. And so as a kid here in the States, I landed, McKinley landed in Virginia and just kind of started living. I remember, if you're talking about pivotal moments, I remember walking into a grocery store, and being absolutely astounded by the selection and the array of things available for purchase. Right. And as Becca Stan, we had to stand in line for food, because that was the reality. And in America, you could buy like 16 Different kinds of apple at your whim. It was incredible.

Michael Hingson 04:56I was amazed when we moved to New Jersey and lived there for six years. yours went into the store the number of different kinds of loaves of bread, the different kinds of bread. Much different than here in California.

Katya Davydova 05:09Yes, yes. Would you say that? It's more in New Jersey in California? Oh, lots more. Yeah. Really? Why do you think that is?

Michael Hingson 05:16I don't know. I never could figure it out. But there was a lot more different kinds of bread. And they were all very tasty but different, a lot more different kinds of bread, I think. And maybe it's the Italian influence. Who knows? Maybe

Katya Davydova 05:27Maybe New Jersey puts the new and new loaves of bread in New Jersey. Good be? Yes. So similar to that, right? Just the whole bushy tailed, bright eyed person looking at a grocery store store aisle. But as a kid, I just I love to play, you know, as any child would like to play, got good grades went on to do well in school, and was really driven by noticing how people interact and helping to facilitate those kinds of interactions, relationships. In fact, I've been a peer mediator since fifth grade. I think that really paved the way for being in the service of other people, right, wanting to help others thrive.

Michael Hingson 06:09So why do you think that you develop that interest?

Katya Davydova 06:14Yeah, it's a good question. I grew up as an older kid. And I think I was an extroverted introvert or an introverted extrovert. But I was definitely very social with a healthy dose of shyness, right? Because I was like, Oh, I don't want to make too much of a ruckus. And I remember as a kid, I would always interact really well with adults, like at a dinner party. If my parents were having friends over. At school, I would I remember in third grade, I was asked to facilitate a group of adults who were visiting from some Russian speaker Slavic speaking country, I was asked to like, facilitate their visit. I was like, okay, like I can get along with adults. This is easy. Sometimes getting along with fellow kids was sometimes a challenge don't always, you know, I got bullied just like any, any other kid or most kids, but was able to really dive into exploring conversations. And I think the why is that and not to sound self aggrandizing. But I I am a deeply curious person, and I love understanding how the world works. Which Michael, I know that it is something that you and I share.

Michael Hingson 07:20We do. And it's It's always fascinating to learn more about how the world works and when to make new discoveries and just get more insights to isn't definitely

Katya Davydova 07:31definitely for sure. That's overall synopsis of little little young Katya.

Michael Hingson 07:37So you went through school, went through high school, cope with all that survived was all that in Virginia.

Katya Davydova 07:42That was all in Virginia. Yes. Right outside of DC.

Michael Hingson 07:46What did you do for college?

Katya Davydova 07:48I went to UVA, go, who is love my bajos? Yeah, and I studied cognitive science, psychology and Russian there. So I had a double major and a minor. And did a thesis, you know, is on a lot of like, a lot of clubs, a lot of committees, a lot of leadership organization. And just really, I really think I maximize my college experience. Now people always ask the coffee, what do you regret most about your college experience? Or what do you what do you wish you'd done more of? And honestly, I wish I partied more like, I probably did enough as it was, especially my first year of college. But I took school very seriously. And, you know, to dwell on it. But I wish I had spent a little bit more time partying. I don't know, I don't know if people say that. Typically. I

Michael Hingson 08:33don't know that they do. But I I appreciate it and understand what the reality is that that college and the whole social life is part of what we should do. Do you think that you know, I've had some people be guests on unstoppable mindset who said that? They didn't think that college really prepared them for life that it was way too theoretical? What do you think? Interesting concept? I mean,

Katya Davydova 09:00it is, Michael, before we dive into that, do you have any theories? Or did they share any theories on why it was too theoretical?

Michael Hingson 09:09They just felt that faculty and so on, we're not really from the working environment that they they came from a college environment, they didn't really have a lot of exposure to the rest of the world. Yeah, and I can see that in some kinds of colleges, maybe some of the more advanced theoretical universities, but community colleges, maybe to a little bit lesser degree, the state colleges probably had more people who did spend some time out in the world and maybe they would be different. That's kind of my perception.

Katya Davydova 09:43Yeah, that's that's a great hypothesis. I can see how, you know, potentially on both sides of the spectrum, there's that sentiment. I think that UVA actually prepared me really well for school. I will say that the location of it right in Charlottesville, Virginia was very warm. Not very, it was insular to a degree, it felt like a bubble because it was beautiful, blissful place where, of course, you know, bad things, of course happened. But I felt very in community when I was both undergrad there. And also when I came back to Charlottesville as an adult, and I mean, my high school prepared me really well for college though, like I was used to the, to the, to the hard work aspect. But I also did a lot of things besides classes, like I had a bunch of internships, I volunteered, had this amazing volunteer experience with it was for specifically for men with comorbid, schizophrenia and substance use disorders. And it was Psychosocial Rehabilitation. So imagine this, like 21 year old girl who's just like, rash and really brimming with excitement, coming into the space where there was, there was a lot of pain, and there was a lot of struggles with, with substances with alcohol. And I was like, wow, we can really, we can really see these humans for the human aspect of it. Right, not, not the some of their past stories, necessarily. And it was just such a delightful and expansive time. I remember that as a very crucial part of my last year of college,

Michael Hingson 11:15you kind of wonder, why is it that some people go that way? Why do they over indulge in alcohol, much less drugs and so on? It's, it's a fascinating question, that I've, I've never experienced any of that. I've never been drunk, I have no desire to be drunk. Although I'd love to say that. I feel sorry for people who don't drink because when they get up in the morning, that's as good as they're going to feel for the rest of the day. But I don't listen to too much Dean Martin, what can I say? But, but seriously, I, I've never understood it. But I, I do appreciate that a lot of it has to do with covering up and just trying to hide from, from the world. Yeah.

Katya Davydova 11:58Could be I mean, there's, there's, there's so many factors, right? There's the family history, there's genetics, there's nature versus nurture. My, my goal is to not not blame because I don't know, circumstances. And

Michael Hingson 12:15more understand than blame, I think blaming doesn't help anyone. Exactly,

Katya Davydova 12:19exactly. But I think that just opened my eyes to the different ways that people show up and the different kinds of lives that that people have. And it also made me I don't wanna say realize, because I've noticed before, but it also affirms how incredibly privileged I was, and am right to this day that I'm healthy, I'm generally happy. I've got a loving support network, a loving system. And I am lucky to have had the opportunities that I've had both in education in grad school and work and relationships and the things I do outside of work, like, there's so much to them, which to be grateful for really,

Michael Hingson 13:00you know, I think a lot about being blind and not being blind. But one of the blessings that I feel I have is having never really dealt with different color skins. It's strange to me that people can be so antagonistic toward people who have different skin colors, simply because of the color of their skin for me, I don't care. I've never seen different skin colors. And I and you know, I don't know what it would have been like if I had been able to see. But I would like to think that I'm a little bit smarter than that, and really don't think that it really should matter.

Katya Davydova 13:38Yeah, yeah. Michael, how do you think that's played out in your relationships? Because you're literally like, you cannot see color? Right? So like, how has that shown up for you? And what has been the benefit to you and your relationships?

Michael Hingson 13:50Well, so first of all, intellectually, I understand colors being I have a, I have a master's degree in physics, so we could talk about wavelengths and all that all day long. And so I understand it. And I appreciate that there are different skin colors, intellectually, but it's the emotional part. So for me, it has never been an issue. And I've been able to walk around New York and places where people say, but you don't want to go there. Because different racism. And all that night and kind of my position is well, you know, I don't want to go where somebody's gonna hate me. But at the same time, I think that a lot of the way that we behave, determines how people behave toward us. And so I've just never really been bothered.

Katya Davydova 14:35Yeah, I'm really struck by what you said, the way that we behave oftentimes reflects on how other people behave towards us. Can I tell you a quick story about that? very recent. Last night I got back from a very, very long day, I was facilitating an off site workshop on feedback scales for an executive team, and just had a whole whole bunch of things. I was out for like almost 12 hours, and then I had to come Hold it like actually start start the work right. So I booked my day job work and my other work. And I remember just sitting there as like I have so depleted I wanted a nap I wanted to eat. But okay, I won't take a nap. I'll eat of course. But let me just give give myself the gift of a walk before I dive into work. Because now it took, you know, several decades to know that you should always push your body and your brain to 100% of the time. Yeah, every single day. At the lesson that I still struggle with, we can definitely come back to that. But as I was taking this walk, I remember just being so radiantly happy, just ongoing and marveling at the world by it was golden. Our folks were out and about on their evening walks, I went to the dog park, there was so many puppies there. And it well, several came over and sat down next to me. And as just kind of walking through the streets like galavanting, right? with a huge grin plastered on my face is just genuinely happy to be here be alive in this world. And so many people, mild back waved from their cars, like honk just just like exchanging these little micro moments of connection, I got to talk to somebody from their car, we're like, looking at those little robot delivery robots are the food delivery robots, and just creating these pockets for micro interaction among strangers, right, that makes you feel or that made me feel a lot more rooted. Yeah, genuinely rooted.

Michael Hingson 16:27In the very fact that you can do that and going around with a smile, this is always a much better way to to be anyway, and it does affect your outlook. And people will react to that. And they'll react typically in a positive way, which is so great. Yeah,

Katya Davydova 16:44yeah, I think there's just true, I'm leaning more into this now more and more, especially the last couple of months and potentially years is, how do I reflect outward, the best of my experience of the world and the best of myself, so that other people can be, I'm not going to try to make anyone feel any sort of way, but maybe to inspire maybe to put a smile on somebody else's face. That's something that I have loved leaning a little bit more into. One of

Michael Hingson 17:14the lessons that I've learned from working with a number of Guide Dogs is that they really take on or are affected by the, their handlers, they're humans. And if you tend to act very nervous and very stressed all the time, or if you suddenly are walking with them, and when you get lost, or you think you're lost, and you're stressed, they're going to react to that, because guiding is a very stressful job. And people who truly learn to understand the whole aspect of dealing with the dog. Know that, that for the most part, and there are exceptions when a dog is abused or whatever. But so for the most part, they want to please they know they want you to tell them the rules, and they want to be able to, to obey the rules and do the right thing. And if you act positive, if you don't act panicky and you don't act stressed, then they're going to be happier, and they're going to do better. And I have no better example of that than escaping from the World Trade Center. I could have been very stressed going down the stairs and been very nervous toward Roselle. But I knew that what I needed to do was just continue to tell them what a great job good job keeping what a good dog and, and that, in turn, as I did that, and she detected from me that I was okay. She was okay. So that if something were to suddenly happened in something affected her immediately, I wouldn't know okay, something's not right here. But it's not the dog. There's something else going on. But otherwise, interacting is such an important thing. And, and I think that's just as true with the people or person to person interaction. You react positively. And so once you actually Asli for the most part, unless somebody is just really not connected, then they're going to react possible. You can be too. Yeah,

Katya Davydova 19:04yeah. Michael, I love that you share the story of you and Roselle. And I also know that your current guide dog is Alamo. Right, right.

Michael Hingson 19:11Who is over here asleep on the floor? Oh, four.

Katya Davydova 19:14Oh, my gosh. I'm very curious. Do you feel that? I mean, I think the answer is yes. I was gonna ask the question like, do all of your or have all your different guide dogs have had different personalities? Oh, yeah. And if so, like, how? How do you either build off of that? What did the interactions feel like to you to all your dogs? Can you tell us a little bit more about that I'm still

Michael Hingson 19:37building a team, right? And working with a guide dog is creating a team. So in every case, it is still they want a team leader and I know that that has to be me. And what I need to learn are the gifts and the strengths of each dog hands and they figure out what works with me as well and the strengths that I have. But if if I am in consistent when I don't always behave in a good way toward them, then they're going to be frightened or they're going to develop a fear on that side a bit thing. Yeah. So So for you, you you prove that last night with your walk?

Katya Davydova 20:13Yes, yes. proved it over and over again, right? Because the more goodness we put out into the world, the more I think we feel richer on it. Yeah.

Michael Hingson 20:21So you you went to college down? Did you get an advanced degree or just naturally sort of, I

Katya Davydova 20:27know, I went to grad school, I have a master's in organizational development and knowledge management, because to trace the story there, after undergrad. So for the first 22 years of my life, I was convinced I was going to do a PhD in Clinical Psychology and go be a clinical psychologist to help other people with their challenges. And then I did a thesis my last year of college, and I decided that shout out to all my PhD errs, I have a couple of friends who have either just finished or in the middle of PhD programs, I decided that I did not want to spend seven years six, seven years in a windowless basement like I had my last year of college collecting data that is ultimately such a deep dive, but not a broad dive, I saw that that the impact that one piece of research, aka my piece of research, the impact wasn't going to be as broad or expansive as I would have liked it for it to be. So I decided to xA going to get a PhD in clinical psych, and said sold my soul to consulting, which a lot of people did. I promised myself I wouldn't, but I did. But in that organization, and in that job, I learned what it means like to feel a cog in a machine and to feel as just a mechanistic part of an organization versus a valued human. Like, of course, I had amazing co workers and I had well, I had amazing co workers. Gonna say things about bosses, co workers. Yeah.

Michael Hingson 22:01And some bosses can be good if they really understand what it means to be a boss. But that's a different story.

Katya Davydova 22:05Yes, I think it is that and I also think it's the systemic structure of the organization. So the way that that organization was structured was not systemically designed to amplify the individual gifts of people. It was meant to squeeze out all of the labor that they could. But I don't think like I'm not not trying to badmouth them. I think that's the the design of a lot of organizations today. Right? Like truly, and I study organization, so I see it in real time. So what's

Michael Hingson 22:31the other side of that? Is that that when that's all they do, they tend not to value nearly as much the human aspect of the companies go toward being a less human oriented and less person oriented organization.

Katya Davydova 22:47Yes, yes, exactly. And that's not to say that, like, that experience didn't give me so many valuable experiences, like I got to be one of the only folks who got to travel internationally, right, I got to do really impactful projects, I gave you a lot of skills that I still use to this day. But what it also opened my mind to was the fact that if we work for the majority of our lives, we should be doing work that feels joyful, meaningful, purposeful, and ultimately, uplifting. Not a nowadays, of course, but for majority of the time, because that's our livelihood. And so I decided to switch jobs to get referred into a job in higher education. So I mosey back down from DC to Charlottesville, Virginia, but at the same time had applied for grad school in organizational development and knowledge management. So it's commuting back and forth on the weekends for in person classes while working full time and living full time in the middle of Virginia. So those two years were just two and a half years were an insane flurry of activity of full time work full time grad squads do Toastmasters, which is a public speaking organization with working out with managing like, or navigating a long distance relationship across the country. It was a lot. It was it was a lot and what a bountiful season that was.

Michael Hingson 23:59Yeah, long distance relationships can be a big challenge. Definitely,

Katya Davydova 24:03definitely. Yeah, we had started out as, like medium distance and then get moved across the country and was like, Okay, well, that was just okay. Yeah, good lesson. He's one of my best friends to this day. I love him with all my heart. He's an amazing human.

Michael Hingson 24:20He's he's still across the country. No, no, we

Katya Davydova 24:23live in the world. We used to live in the same city. Now he's in a different city, but we see each other occasionally.

Michael Hingson 24:29Yeah. Did you ever develop a family or is it still just you?

Katya Davydova 24:34It's still just me. I am very blessed by the people that I have in my life, the relationships that I have friendships, but I feel very I

Michael Hingson 24:41kind of figured out because you talked about taking the walk yesterday and that was my impression, but still, having relationships and having good positive relationships and long term ones are still very important things to happen. And

Katya Davydova 24:55I agree. I agree. So you

Michael Hingson 24:57got your you got your masters do write them. What did you do?

Katya Davydova 25:02Then I realized that, you know, I've got my master's, the work that I was doing in higher education, which was helping high school students and their families build up a good profile, a good set of activities, a good sort of pathway towards competitive college admissions. That was all fine at all, but I needed more impact. And I quit that job after finishing grad school. And I decided to kind of say, eff it. We're moving across the country because I had visited Los Angeles a couple of times when I was in grad school and working full time, and I just absolutely fell in love with the city. It was something that was so vibrant, so sunny, the people were nice, the mountains were so close by. And I remember I was on a run in Los Angeles in December 2018. And I remember looking at over the think was the five is one of the freeways I remember looking at it over the five is like, I am so darn happy. Like, this is just this moment of elation that this is where I needed to be. And then six months later, I drove across the country to land in LA and have not looked back for a number of years now. It's been a magical journey since I

Michael Hingson 26:15wake up to the Hollywood sign every day. Yeah,

Katya Davydova 26:17that's my window. No, truly, I really do. I wake up and like, there it is. Hello, Hollywood. Yeah. And I just the reason I'm sharing the story about moving across the country is because there was an ethos in me that was present and that had been building, which perhaps some listeners can resonate with. The ethos was this, she dreamed it. So she did it. Right. It's kind of like, if I was 111 years old, on my deathbed looking back at my life, what are the things that I wish I would have done? What are the things that I wish I would have said? And, you know, I read a lot about like books on studies on Regrets of the Dying or things that people wish they would have done. And, you know, I wish I worked less. I wish I spend more time with loved ones. I wish I took more risks. So I decided to really lean into that and just said kind of, let's do it. Let's just start a new adventure.

Michael Hingson 27:11isn't nice and toasty down there today.

Katya Davydova 27:13You know, today is the perfect day of its thinking that low 80s It's going to be a scorcher this weekend. Somewhere in the 80s. Yeah, I've got Yeah, friends in Sacramento. They're like, yeah, it's 108 Sounds like

Michael Hingson 27:24oh, yeah, yeah, they Well, but they're hot air comes from the cabin. So it was a different story. But yeah, but I it's like 93 here in Victorville. Yeah, supposed to get hot too. So we'll see. Wow,

Katya Davydova 27:38thank goodness for AC right.

Michael Hingson 27:41You better believe it? Oh, my goodness,

Katya Davydova 27:43my I live in a historic building. And it doesn't have AC in the living room, the dining room, which is where I work from. So lots of fans. So we're just we're circulating air here. But well, and fans help a lot. Yes, they do. I am their number one fan, a fan. I get it. Know You're a huge putter and a joker. So

Michael Hingson 28:05I get it. So you move down here? And what did you start to do that when you started your own business,

Katya Davydova 28:10right the systems, the processes to help people thrive at work, because that's, you know, my degree was very much into that. And I loved it, Michael, like it was such an incredible time to be able to build so I built out an onboarding program, a Learning Development Program, performance development, really helping folks thrive. And months and months later, the pandemic had just arrived in LA was just kind of getting settled, making, you know, friendships and relationships. And then we experienced this huge, like, blow out right of the world. And a month after that, a month after March 2020, my company merged with another company. And so there was layoffs, there was restructuring. It was a pretty dark time, to say the least a very, very dark time.

Michael Hingson 29:00What did you do?

Katya Davydova 29:02cried a lot. I think so I think a lot of people did felt the way to the world and realize that. Yes, the world absolutely feels exorbitantly heavy. Yes, I was pulling 15 hours a day working on my own work on side projects on just like trying to run on the wheel of productivity. I remember when we talked about briefly, how I kind of alluded to the fact that it was difficult for me to relax. Still very much the case but during that time, especially in the 2020s 2021 22 very, very difficult to do so because there was always more to do always wanted to be done. Yeah. But I realized that that's not sustainable. And I was extremely burnt out. So I couldn't go and we were some of the hiking trails were closed because I would let off steam by hiking running. They were closed. And I was like, Okay, I gotta do something within my locus of control. Again, going back to our initial conversation, and I just began taking walks around my neighborhood before work during work after work, and just noticing all of the ordinary things that were ever present, but really spending delivered a time and attention on them and seeing what I what meaning I could impart from those things. So just today I was thinking about this, I stepped on a really, really crunchy leaf, and it just like, Oh, it is so crunchy like, scent and tingles down my spine, things like that, right? Things that we just like, encounter in everyday life that are so plain so quotidian. What if we could really revel in their in their ordinariness? So

Michael Hingson 30:36you? You put up with a lot with all of that, and how have you come out of the COVID environment than some of them? Yeah,

Katya Davydova 30:44I think we came out of it pretty darn well, I, when my company merged with the other organization, that was also a lot of work, because again, went from being a team to being the sole person says, heading learning and development was also doing People Operations. Really good opportunity to develop rogram programmatic, I guess, scale to like, really build a program for a 400 person, international global company, of how to actually build systems, processes and micro habits in place so that people can learn, right, because I think we are nothing if we don't learn if we don't stay curious. And during that time, when I was exiting that job to go work elsewhere, I also decided to write a book, because I was approaching a milestone birthday. And I'd wanted to punctuate that period of my life with an exclamation point, versus just our standard ellipsis. Right, one year into the next I was like, No, I want to make this big go out with a bang. And decided to write a book, because that was a very, very hard thing. And never done before I you know, I have written for the majority of my life, but writing a book is different. It's different. It's very different. So yeah, and started my new job, started the book and moved in with my then partner all in the span of one month. And that was such a beautiful, expansive, wondrous season. I was very grateful for that time.

Michael Hingson 32:18And so what exactly are you doing? Yeah. So

Katya Davydova 32:22right now, I work as a leadership facilitator, where I teach managers and executive executives leadership skills, and I'm also a coach for high achievers to help them get from where they are to either a higher place or however they define that, or to a place of more calm, more peace, especially for my fellow high achievers can be very difficult for us to relax, but really helped them with building out those micro habits sustainably, so that they actually enact behavioural change that they would like

Michael Hingson 32:49to see. So are you doing this for someone else? Or in your own business now?

Katya Davydova 32:52For myself? Okay, so

Michael Hingson 32:55you have now branched off and taken the leap into your own business. You paperwork in all the forms that the California Secretary of State requires?

Katya Davydova 33:06Well, this is a it's a to be to be expanded type of deal, because I saw my day job. Yeah. Okay. A lot of effort there.

Michael Hingson 33:16So what's your day job?

Katya Davydova 33:19So I leadership, trader, learning experiences for managers and executives, I teach things like influential communication, feedback, strategic thinking, like yesterday, I taught a I don't want to say the name but a famous well being health company. And it was just really, really cool to be in a space with the executive team with, you know, the CEO at the helm. And it's like, wow, we get to talk so meaningfully about things that actually matter. How do you build a sustainable feedback culture at this young organization? How do you as leaders model these behaviors that repple down to the business down to the organization, that's a deeply deeply meaningful work?

Michael Hingson 34:01So you you do a lot of different things relating to organization development, your speaker, you're an author and so on. What's your core motivator?

Katya Davydova 34:12I think it goes back to your beautifully articulated beginning sentence Michael of creating a more joyful world. For folks who might be tuning in visually I'm wearing a yellow shirt yellow is my is my color just because it's the the color of lights, the color of expansion, the color possibility, and I'm some days I'm of sheer optimist. Some days, I'm a nihilistic optimist, happy to dive into what that means as well. But essentially, I really believe in the goodness of people, both as individuals and the collective power to be good and do good. And I think that we each of us, and I do I really say this with so much conviction and not like the try, like everyone's good, but just a true conviction. that people are so good. And we have the capacity to do amazing things and to affect others in positive ways. That does not mean that we're always going to be perfect. That does not mean that we're never going to hurt people's feelings, or or, you know, potentially even do unsavory things. But what if we could live in a world in which we want to see? Alright, I know that there's a, there's a famous quote in there. But I just I, I love the feeling of being able to connect people being able to make them feel like they matter. That's what it is, at the end of the day, I want people to feel like they matter.

Michael Hingson 35:38And that helps you achieve.

Katya Davydova 35:40Yeah, it gives me a deep sense of meaning a deep sense of purpose. Purpose. Yeah. Well,

Michael Hingson 35:50and personally, from my perspective, I love what you what you're saying makes perfect sense. You know, I don't think that people are born bad. I think it's a learned behavior that oftentimes too many people ascribe to and it's something that really we we need to deal with and recognize that there's a lot more power in being good in loving than anything else. Yeah.

Katya Davydova 36:13Yeah. I mean, Michael, let me let me ask you this question. I'm sure you've been asked to ask him before. But I'm curious what your response is, in this moment. What drives you to do the things that you do to spread your message to spread awareness to do you know, hundreds of speaking engagements a year? What motivates you?

Michael Hingson 36:30Well, I think probably somewhat the same thing that you do, I want to inspire I want to educate people, I want people to learn more about blindness, and that, that our view of disability is totally wrong. disability does not mean a lack of ability, and that every person on this planet has a disability of one sort or another. We could delve into that. But the reality is, I think that anytime that we can contribute to making people have a better outlook is an important and a good thing to do. Yeah.

Katya Davydova 37:03Is that something that you felt yourself cultivating as a child or something that you grew into,

Michael Hingson 37:09I always wanted to be a teacher. And my first job out of college took me in a different direction, sort of. But I ultimately realized that being a teacher doesn't necessarily mean that you're going to be hired into plant to teach in the classroom or whatever. And then, in fact, most of the jobs that I have had, including what I do today, is all about teaching. And that, that it's important to teach the right and important things. And that in reality, I can't teach anyone anything they have to teach themselves. All I can do is show the way.

Katya Davydova 37:49Yes, yes. I love that. And what's what is it that keeps you going? Right, because sometimes being a teacher is difficult to continually have to exert some or a lot of ourselves to do so. What keeps you going?

Michael Hingson 38:04Well, I That's a fair question. And I'm gonna turn it around in a second and ask you the same thing, but, but for me, look, I believe that that people are doing it. I love life, I love the fact that life is an adventure that we all should share him. I think that there is an absolute relevant world of morals and ethics and so on. And so it's always frustrating when I see people totally ignoring morals, totally ignoring ethics, doing some of the things that we're seeing people do in our in our world today. But I ultimately have seen too many examples of life is really composed mostly of good people. And we can be better for it. And we need to really emphasize the good and the love part. I'm with with Henry Drummond love is the most important thing in the world. And it is something that will transcend everything that we deal with. And if we don't do it, it will destroy anyone who really decides not to truly be a loving individual. So it keeps me going knowing that some of those things are true. Some of those things work. And I want to continue to help motivate people to to do better and be better than they are. And maybe it's like what you were thinking of the whole Gandhi quote of Be the change you want to see in the morning. Exactly. Yes. How about you?

Katya Davydova 39:33Yeah, I think about this question as it is interlaced with the topic of burnout, where in today's as well. Yeah, and I would say in today's society that folks are more prone to an experience more burnout more than ever. The reason that I contrast that is because at the end of the day, while systems, organizational systems worldwide system, global citizens are like me not designed for necessarily human flourishing, because if you look at the eight hour workday, right, that is an archaic practice from the 50s. From the line of Dr. Work that some people are definitely not working eight hours, some people are working way more, but the human brain and body are not designed to sit in a chair for eight hours a day and look at a screen. Right? That is my soapbox. Wow, I love taking us down this. And I say this because it can get very exhausting to show up over and over and over again. But I think that what it boils down to is that, to your point about making a brighter world, if we have a choice to show up as loving, as kind as caring, why wouldn't we? Right? It almost seems like the me at least, I mean, I might be biased, but it almost feels like the natural choice. But I also think that this is not something that many of us consciously step into, like I had to get there. I had this really powerful lesson from my prior relationship, where my former partner and I, you know, we were living together had a great relationship. But he's, again, still one of my best friends different partner than the other one I mentioned. And he told me, he's like Katya, like, you nag me a lot, right? You like, tell me like, what what you wish I did more of what? What I'm not doing right. Like, you don't tell me as much the things that I am doing, right? It's like, Oh, my God, you're so right. Like, I wasn't giving him that positive reinforcement that we and research affirms is crucial, or strong relationships. Because according to adult learning theory, adults learn best by positive reinforcement by doubling down on things that they do well. And ever since he said that, to me, I like really took that to heart, because I asked him for feedback, after we broke up was like, Hey, give me some feedback on how I can be a better partner. And it was really, really valuable. And that's one of the lessons that I carry forth with me. If there's a way that I can positively amplify someone else's experience, someone else's work someone else's, you know, anything that they do, why wouldn't I? Yeah, it makes it better for everybody involved. And it feels so good for both

Michael Hingson 42:04parties. And, and you're not doing it from the standpoint of arrogance. You're doing it from the standpoint of love, and because you want to really be a helpful part of humanity.

Katya Davydova 42:16Yeah, yeah, exactly. And it's sometimes like, yeah, it can take effort, especially when we've had a day. It can be very easy to say like, well, the wild is dark, and I'm tired, right? So I'm gonna go like wallow. And of course, like, everyone does, I do that, too. But when we have the choice to show up as our best selves,

Michael Hingson 42:33I wouldn't wait. Yeah. So tell me, what do you think having an unstoppable mindset means?

Katya Davydova 42:43I love this question. You know, I was reflecting a lot about this in preparation for our conversation today, Michael. I think there's the tangible resilience, skills, the things that we can learn, right, all the coping mechanisms, being aware of how stress shows up in our brains and bodies, you know, employing techniques like deep breathing, or the 200 technique, or, you know, inviting cognitive offload. All of those terms, by the way, are terms that I teach for my day job, which I just love. But essentially, there's the hard skills, right, like, if you experienced this type of stressor, here's how you can cope. That's one way to be unstoppable, so that you have the systems, the mechanistic systems in place to get you through our times. But I think there's also the flip side of being unstoppable is having the belief that you are able to overcome any challenge that comes in your way. And if not overcome to your ideal, desired level, that there's lessons that you can take from it. So if you overcome it, amazing, great, you've made it through made it past, if it didn't go quite as planned that there's takeaways to help guide you on the next iteration, the next chapter. And I think that that sort of intangible that second flavor is the more intangible that limitless belief that instead of a limiting belief, that you are capable, that you are able and that in the end, things will turn out however they turn out.

Michael Hingson 44:17So I'm sure that you've had in your life and you can point to times that you've had to face adversity, what's gotten you through it, how do you do them?

Katya Davydova 44:27Yeah, I was actually just discussing coping styles, like there's different types of coping styles of stress. And my typical coping style is just robot mode. I'll share with you a story that about almost a decade ago, actually now, I was in a near fatal head on collision. And it was a really hard time everybody walked out it was it was all good. Well, all good. I put that in quotes, air quotes. I expected after that, that I would just go back to life and like, you know, maybe take some time to recover maybe like rest and I did not write I just continued pumping out at 100% 150% Just the way I had been before before the accident. And I tell the story, because when I tell my participants about the story, I'm like, you know, I should have learned to take better care of myself, I should have learned to slow down and actually rest. And I did it. But what got me through is that like, okay, like, this is going to be a hard season, I'm going to just go robot do the things that I need to do to stay afloat. But what I've been learning recently in the last couple of years is to actually listen to my body. If I'm tired, maybe that's an indication that I should take a break. Right? What did curiosity what did that though? Just knowing to answer your question more directly, Michael, to get through hard times, knowing that there is going to be a different time, a time that I feel 1% Less bad

Michael Hingson 45:51tomorrow. So let's go back to let's go back to going robot. does that also mean you're just doing things, if you will, by rote or being a robot, that it gives you your brain time to think and to process? And then of course, you have to listen to what comes out or learn to listen to what comes out. But does that then by giving your brain a chance to process? If you think that is true, then that's it is it is truly a healing mechanism that that allows you to come out of it stronger and better for what you do.

Katya Davydova 46:30Yeah, yeah, I really think it's a way of compartmentalization, where I know that there's things that quote unquote, have to get done, right in order for me to carry on the way that I've been living. But I also think it can be maladaptive because I sometimes may not take enough time to grieve, right or to process, I journal a lot. So that that is my sort of grieving mechanism. And lately, again, as I said, I went through a lot of heavy things this past year, actually allowing myself the time to just like, go on a mountaintop and cry, you know, as a sort of movie like as it sounds, it's really, really cathartic and healing to say, okay, Kati, like these are the things that are bubbling up, let them out, as opposed to squashing them down and dealing with them never so that they're unresolved.

Michael Hingson 47:16Yeah, I think that's part of the the issue is that if you just push them down, and you don't pay attention to them, when you don't deal with issues that come up, then you're going to come up and get you in the end anyway.

Katya Davydova 47:28And intensify potentially and intensify. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. I think having the sense of community around as well. I've I'm curious, Michael, how this shows up for you. But I haven't been really great at asking for help, especially in my younger years, because I'm like, I can do it on my own. You know, I grew up very independent talking to adults, as I mentioned. And so I was like, I can do everything myself, right. But now I'm like, leaning on my community. I'm like, Hey, friends, like I'm feeling really bad, like helped, you know, and are like, what would you do in this situation, and everyone has shown up and just such the most kind, loving way. And just remembering that there's people who want to be in your corner.

Michael Hingson 48:05And people who care, people who care. I, I have learned, especially and talk about it since September 11, that when I think I've learned it a long before then especially working with guide dogs, it's all about teamwork and team development. But I think that there is a lot to always be said for having a team. And we may or may not necessarily recognize it. And sometimes we we may even just want to push the team away. But when we truly interact with the team, interact with the people around us and let them into our lives. It is such a wonderful, very powerful thing to do.

Katya Davydova 48:51Is there a moment like that that stands out for you and your life?

Michael Hingson 48:54Well, immediately what I'm thinking of is that that my wife of 40 years passed away last November. And so we we had been married literally 40 years. So suddenly, I was alone, in a sense, because now she wasn't here. I did have a few months to sort of prepare for it because we knew what was happening. This her body started slowing down. She's been in a wheelchair, her wife and her buddy just started slowing down and that happened for her. But suddenly, no matter what you think it was suddenly there and now she's no longer here. Although I'd love to tell people she's watching somewhere and if I misbehave, I'm going to hear about it. But But still, it's different now. And one of the things that we did was I decided to have a meeting, kind of a celebration of life, which we did in January the week the shoe We did a service for her in the middle of January where we spread her ashes. And then the next week, we did a celebration of life online. And people came from around the world literally, to participate in that for her. And I realized how much not only she but I had in such a blessing with so many people who wanted to continue to be part of our lives. And, and then it worked out really well. So I, I love to stay in touch with people, but I also now value even more times of flight. So I can I can go through a good period of time and not turn the TV on not turn the radio on or anything and just have a quiet or I'll just read a book. And that's okay. Yeah, yeah.

Katya Davydova 50:55I really appreciate your sharing your story, Michael, that's, that's,

Michael Hingson 51:00I think it is important that we all need to take time to collect our own thoughts, and that we need to value other people. But at the same time, we also need to recognize that we have to value ourselves and in our lives. And ultimately, again, we're our best teachers, and we have to teach ourselves.

Katya Davydova 51:22Yes, and teach ourselves not once, not twice, but iteratively, right, like set up potentially even systems or habits to remind ourselves, to spend time with ourselves to check in to journal to write to do whatever it is that makes us feel centered.

Michael Hingson 51:34I'm a firm believer that people should take some time every day to just think and as I was I talked about introspection. That is something that we we can do when people say I don't have the time to do that too much do yes, you do. Always have to.

Katya Davydova 51:54I also used to be one of those people who's like, I don't have time I'm literally doing like I'm working 14 hour days. I'm moving from one thing to the next. And what I share people my schedule when I like, let them see my calendar. They're like, Kati, this is insane. Like, I know, it's insane. That's why I don't have time. But there is always time and micromoments right. Lately, I've been finding meditative moments on like, I bike to the gym, or I walk around the neighborhood or like, deliberately, if I can't sit still, which it's it is very difficult for me to still sit still. Then I'll find that stillness as I'm physically moving. Right? And like the mind just comes down. I'm a rock climber. So whenever like I'm on the wall, holding on for dear life. That is such a perfect opportunity to think about like, nothing else matters. Besides this moment. That is it. Right you're

Michael Hingson 52:37holding on? And the reality is we always do have time, it's just that we make the choice not to. And that's the problem that each of us has to grow out. Mm

Katya Davydova 52:47hmm. I wouldn't even view it as a problem, right? Because problem or a challenge? Challenge, somewhat, but it makes it feel like like, you are at fault for

Michael Hingson 52:59not Yeah, no, no, I hear you.

Katya Davydova 53:02Yeah, I just I and this is still an unresolved thing for myself, too. And I share this right, even though I coach people on this, it's, it's still something that is such a constant work in progress. And that's why like, I really like thinking about the micro habits, right? How can we design systems in a way that we don't have to, we don't have to think about implementing this every day, we've already designed the backbone of the system that can carry us

Michael Hingson 53:26through? How do we get people to do that?

Katya Davydova 53:30Well, we get to get them to think about their motivations. So starting with a why, like, what is it that ultimately matters to them? And it's kind of like asking a ladder of lies, right? And why does that matter to you? And why does that matter to you? And what's at the true core, or like, what is the core of your essence or your being, and then connecting behaviors back onto that. So mapping it to sort of like this giant tree trunk of why we're all the branches, or the possible behaviors and the possible habits that folks might build. So for example, when my clients wants to build a little bit more structure in their morning schedule, and, you know, schedules are great structure is great, but why does that matter? Right? What will that ultimately give to that person? And so we were able to unpack that a little bit deeply in a way that the outcome was a sustainable, you know, chunk of time every day to connect back with themselves, because that was something that they were truly wanting and desiring

Michael Hingson 54:25in 30 years, how would you like people to remember you in your life, not that you've passed away or anything, but in 30 years, there's a lot more time for people to develop memories about you. Definitely,

Katya Davydova 54:35definitely. I love that you asked that question I got I'm gonna marinate on it. But the answer that comes to mind is I would like to be remembered as a source of light, love, joy and liberty for others, and that's kind of vague and nebulous, but I leave it vague and nebulous to be able to land a To the interpretation of each person, right, so if I can be that person that is able to make someone feel at least 10% better, if I'm that person who can help them craft systems or I can help them craft an environment where they do feel their most powerful, empowered, joyful selves, then I will have lived a great life.

Michael Hingson 55:20And we would have done something that's really great. Yes, yes. What advice do you have for for people who are listening to this?

Katya Davydova 55:31In general, I love I love how to end the big the big hitters show like I love your style.

Michael Hingson 55:41It's a sir questions that come to mind. It's not that they were planned. To be honest, it's that they're devotee. Right? Scott talking. But anyway,

Katya Davydova 55:50I think it's to continually remind ourselves that we have a choice and how we see the world. And to choose to see it in a way that ultimately is serves us and serves other people best. So my specific personalized version of it is to see the joy in the everyday to find little little treasures, right little moments of joy and wonder in the everyday, that's my own ethos, yours might be that, you know, you leave the world feeling you leave each day, helping one person feel inspired. Right? Whatever the flavor of it is, the advice that I would impart upon folks, if I could have like a billboard that would shine across the entire universe. Or maybe let's just keep it to Earth, planet Earth, the universe, in this one is to remember that we have the choice to show up and to try to show up as fully ourselves, and it's probably our best authentic versions of ourselves. Because that's all we have.

Michael Hingson 56:47And I liked the fact that you talk about it as a choice, because it is a choice. And we can choose to do that or not. I think that's the important part about whatever we do, we we have the choice as to how we want to live, we may not always be able to control some of the things that happen to us, we always have the choice as to how we deal with it. And that's what's really important. Yeah.

Katya Davydova 57:12And also making the space that if we don't feel like or cannot show up as our best selves that day, to not like get overly hard on ourselves about it, right? Because of course, sometimes we're gonna have off days off weeks off seasons, and just keep coming back to it with love. As long as we get that word,

Michael Hingson 57:27give it to ourselves, and don't get hard on others either.

Katya Davydova 57:30Yes, yes, exactly. Don't let that spread. Well,

Michael Hingson 57:34this has been fun. I know, you've got to go off to another meeting, because you're just so popular. So I do want to thank you again for being here. And I hope that all of you enjoyed this. Please let us know what you think I would appreciate it. If you would reach out to me, you can email me at Michaelhi at accessibe A c c e s s i b e.com. Or go to our podcast page www dot Michael hingson.com/podcast. Love Of course, as I always say, but I do mean it. We really would appreciate five star ratings from you, wherever you're listening to this, but how do you how can people reach out to you and maybe take advantage of some of the things that you do and so on?

Katya Davydova 58:12Yeah, thank you for asking that. And absolutely plus, plus a million to what you just shared about reaching out to Michael. But if you want to get in touch and honestly do truly mean this to please please reach out. It's just Katya at KatyaDavydova.com If you're an Instagram, it's at joy in plain sight, all one word. And if you want to find me on LinkedIn, it's Kaya Davydova. If you're someone who is interested in coaching and want to explore options for building more sustainable habits for life flourishing, I'm in your corner. I've got your back. Let's have a conversation. Again. Katya @KatyaDavydova.com. It'd be amazing to hear from you. Thank you might be on mute Michael

Michael Hingson 58:47spell spell. Katya Davydova For us?

Katya Davydova 58:49Sure. Katya is K a t y a. And Davydova is D a v y d o v a Davydova.

Michael Hingson 58:59And you wrote a book?

Katya Davydova 59:00I did. I did. Called joy in plain sight. And how can people get that? You're welcome to either find it on Amazon, Barnes and Noble, I believe target all your online retailers. If you want to personalize signed copy, I have a couple of those still left available. So I'm happy to mail you one. Feel free to just email me Katy@KatyaDavydova.com

Michael Hingson 59:22Well, Katya, I want to thank you once again for being here and for doing this. It's been a joy, and it's been a pleasure and we need to do it again. Yes,

Katya Davydova 59:31Michael, thank you so much for cultivating the space I just feel radiantly connected and extremely grateful for having this opportunity to chat with.

Michael Hingson 59:43You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visitwww.accessibe.com. AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

View Details

Haley Cooper grew up in Orange County California. She clearly grew up loving life. After attending college she was deciding what to do with her life when an opportunity appeared to travel to Malawi, Africa as part of a Christian mission.

Eight months after returning to California from this first mission she was approached and asked to return to Malawi to help start and grow a manufacturing program to create food to help improve the nutrition of people in villages who, up to that time, tended to be quite malnourished. The plant Haley started manufactured, ready, peanut butter. Actually, there was a bit more to the product, but peanut butter was the main ingredient. Haley will tell us the whole story and show us how what she did made an incredible difference to so many.

After returning to the United States after two years Haley embarked on a career as a fundraising professional for various nonprofit companies. Along the way she married and now is the mom of three children. Her oldest son who is four years old is adopted. The adoption story for Haley is inspiring and worth hearing.

Two years ago Haley began her own philanthropic fundraising consulting company, The Savvy Fundraiser. While we discuss the company and fundraising in general you get to hear a conversation about sales, selling and fundraising. Our discussion about the philosophy of these topics is fun and quite relevant. I leave it to you to listen and decide for yourself if Haley and I are on the right track.

As always, I would love to hear your thoughts about our episode. Please feel free to email me at michaelhi@accessibe.com. And, of course, when you listen to this episode, please give us a 5* rating. Thanks.

About the Guest:

Haley is a passionate and accomplished professional with a diverse skill set in the nonprofit sector. As a Certified Fund Raising Executive (CFRE), Certified Stress Management Coach, and Certified EmC train the trainer, she brings a wealth of expertise to her work. Haley's journey began in 2012 when she founded PB+J in Malawi, Africa, establishing her commitment to making a positive impact for children and youth.

Since then, she has honed her abilities while working with various small and large nonprofit teams, focusing on human services, homelessness, and youth sectors. Haley is the Founder and CEO of The Savvy Fundraiser and her specialties include the EmC process, nonprofit leadership, board development, and fundraising.

Ways to connect with Haley:

Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/haley-cooper-cfre/Website: https://thesavvyfundraiser.com/Subscribe: https://thesavvyfundraiser.ck.page/subscribe

About the Host:Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.

Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children’s Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association’s 2012 Hero Dog Awards.

https://michaelhingson.comhttps://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/https://twitter.com/mhingsonhttps://www.youtube.com/user/mhingsonhttps://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/

accessiBe Linkshttps://accessibe.com/https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBehttps://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/

https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/

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Transcription Notes

Michael Hingson 00:00Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visitwww.accessibe.comto learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.

Michael Hingson 01:21Hi there and welcome to another episode of unstoppable mindset. Today we're going to have some fun we've got a really interesting person to chat with Haley Cooper, unless you talk to her mom and sometimes her mom pronounces it Haley Cooper but and my computer by the way with Jaw's pronounces at Halle, but I'm smart enough to know that it's really Haley. But Haley Halle tomato tomahto I couldn't resist this. Well anyway, welcome to unstoppable mindset, Haley, and we're really glad that you're here with us.

Haley Cooper 01:56Well, thank you so much, Michael. It's so good to be here. And I'm so glad that we found a time that has worked for us. And I'm just delighted and honored to be able to chat with you.

Michael Hingson 02:06And on top of everything else, sports fans. Haley lives in Lake Forest, California, which is only what would you say about oh, from Victorville? Probably about 60 miles. No more than

Haley Cooper 02:19Yeah, maybe. Maybe I could throw you a football? Yeah, yeah.

Michael Hingson 02:24Well are probably easier for me to throw something from here because we're up higher.

Haley Cooper 02:29Oh, there you go. Yeah, you'd

Michael Hingson 02:30have to throw away up hill. But Haley lives fairly close to where I attended college at University of California at Irvine. And then we live my wife and I in Mission Viejo for a while. So anyway, we're really glad you're here with us. And I want to thank you for for joining us. So why don't we start? The fun way to start? Tell us about kind of the early Halley growing up and all that sort of stuff?

Haley Cooper 02:55Yeah, that's a good question. And I've been reflecting on that. And you know, as I've been listening to your podcasts episodes, I'm like, What is my story? Who who is Haley, who is family

Michael Hingson 03:05anyway? Who has real power that really Haley Halle, stand up?

Haley Cooper 03:12There you go. But you know, obviously, I grew up in Orange County, and I grew up and over really good family that, you know, my family was deeply committed to philanthropy and giving back to the community. It's been a part and ingrained in my life from as early as I can remember. You know, my grandparents would always invite us to ballet shows. They were a part of an organization called the St. Joseph ballet that is now the wooden floor at you know, reflecting back I'm like, now I'm a nonprofit leader, which we'll get to like, I didn't understand philanthropy, I just understood that it was a way of life. I also grew up in the Christian church. And so service is giving to others, and helping others it's just ingrained in in me. And, you know, aside from service with my family, I loved playing sports. I grew up running cross country and track played soccer was a very active child's love to play. I'm one of five children. And with my two parents, and I just, you know, remember as a child, volunteering, and aside from playing sports, volunteering with my family, and, you know, from a young age, I was exposed to the importance of that and making a positive impact on the world.

Michael Hingson 04:30So where did you grow up? What Round Lake Forest or where I grew up in Laguna Niguel? Ah, so still right in the area?

Haley Cooper 04:39Yeah. And I went to from preschool to 12th grade I went to the same school St. Margaret's in San Juan Capistrano. And it's funny because one of my one of my very best dear friends is my friend from preschool. So we've been friends for I mean, I won't date myself but 36 years. You That's okay.

Michael Hingson 05:03Nothing wrong. Don't be ashamed. I mean, I was born in 1950. You can do the math. Yes. So so I'm not I'm not ashamed by it. It's okay. Well, that's that's pretty cool. I did student teaching when I took teacher training at UC Irvine from the teacher's college, their university high in Irvine. So that was kind of fun. Yeah,

Haley Cooper 05:28we played them in soccer. Who won? We did. Okay. No, actually, I think it was pretty fair, pretty. I remember them being pretty competitive. But I, I would like to remember that we, we kicked their butts.

Michael Hingson 05:43Now we need to get somebody on from University High from from back in those days. Yeah. And and see what we can do. So we need to get somebody from somewhere in the 1990s. And so on to come on and see if we can get a real story. So

Haley Cooper 06:03that's two sides of the story. Right? Yeah. But

Michael Hingson 06:06unless they say, Yeah, they really kicked our butts.

Haley Cooper 06:12Well, I hope I hope they remember it the way I

Michael Hingson 06:15so what did you major in in college?

Haley Cooper 06:17Yeah, so I went to St. Mary's College of California in Moraga, California at the East Bay. And I studied Kinesiology, Health and Human Performance. That's what I graduated with my bachelor's degree in. And I love science, all things science, I love learning how the body works, and being able to help others implement that. Well. I don't necessarily do that now.

Michael Hingson 06:44So what's the big? So what's the big bang theory, one of your favorite TV shows?

Haley Cooper 06:48I guess I do like that show. Just checking the genus of that show. But yeah, I really, you know, like I said, I was always involved in sports, and it was a part of my lifestyle growing up. And, you know, somehow, my dad has five kids was able to make it to every single person's that soccer game or sports event, sometimes you're playing at the same time on the same field, but he was able to make it to all so being able to leverage that in college, and it was something that I was really excited about. And I really enjoyed, you know, it was one of the only colleges at the time that offer that major, specifically, there are different tracks that you could take, but I've chose Health and Human Performance and really enjoyed it.

Michael Hingson 07:34How did you say health and human performance?

Haley Cooper 07:36How helping human performance?

Michael Hingson 07:39Okay, yeah. Okay, that's that was just making sure. That's that, though, is pretty interesting. Why did you choose that?

Haley Cooper 07:48So like I said, you know, sports was heavily involved in my upbringing, my dad had also graduated with a degree in exercise physiology. And so it was just something that, you know, I was passionate about, and found interest in and was able to excel in. And so I really, yeah, I just like the aspect of learning how the body works, and being able to help that other people implement healthy lifestyles.

Michael Hingson 08:19Cool. Well, and why did you? Well, what, what drove you to doing that? Like, was it just your upbringing that you just felt that that was kind of a way to give back a little bit, do you think?

Haley Cooper 08:34I think so. So I actually entered college as a communications major, because that's what I thought I wanted to do. But looking back, I'm glad I did not go down that road, because that is just, it's, it was just not for me. And I found, you know, I found this and I think it was because of my upbringing, that really was instrumental in helping me choose, choose this major, and get interested in all and specifically, you know, I really liked physiology and Exercise Physiology and what we would do, as our final project, as a senior was developing, like, we had all the you could do the waterway, I forget what it's called, but like weigh yourself underwater, and that's the most accurate way to weigh yourself. And then we did different activities. And we were able to prescribe exercise and nutrition plans based on the measurements that we took.

Michael Hingson 09:29So how do you weigh or how do you weigh yourself underwater?

Haley Cooper 09:33You know, college was a long time ago, I have to remember Ah, there you go. But you sit on a chair and you go underwater, and I think it takes out everything. I wish I remembered what I now I'm gonna have to Google it. But yeah, I think it's the most accurate way because it takes out all the other like, fluid and build up that you can get on other scales.

Michael Hingson 09:57Interesting. I'm gonna have to google that and learn about that. myself, that would be kind of fun to do. But it makes sense. As you say, it takes up a lot of other things. So

Haley Cooper 10:07says it's the most accurate way to measure body fat. You're submerged in water while you sit on a scale and then you calculate your body fat percentage.

Michael Hingson 10:17Got it? Okay. Yeah. Interesting. I'm gonna have to go see where I can do that. Yeah,

Haley Cooper 10:26maybe at your local gym? Possibly. So

Michael Hingson 10:29you graduated from college? And then what did you go off and do?

Haley Cooper 10:36So I was sitting in my parents church in Aliso Viejo, California, right? When I graduated college, and I was trying to figure out what I wanted to do and on stage. You know, someone was like, Hey, we're doing a missions trip to Malawi, Africa. Does anyone want to go? All we ask of you is to sponsor children through World Vision. And then, you know, obviously raised the money. I think it was about $2,500 to go on the trip. And that included the flight, the stay the food, everything. And like I said, my family was philanthropically. Locally, we had never really traveled outside of the country. I had been to England once when my older sister studied abroad there. But again, it was very local. And I was like, Hey, mom, and dad, guess where I'm going this summer? I was like, I'm going to Malawi, and they're like, Haley, what are you like, what's like, where did you get that idea from? And, you know, when I graduated from college, he more inclined to give me gifts or money was part of my family tradition. But I asked him to give me money to go towards this trip. And so in August of 2012, by August 2011, sorry, that's when I graduated college, I went to my first trip to Malawi, Africa. And honestly, before I went, I had to Google where the country was because it's a little sliver of Africa. And this little country, next to Tanzania and Mozambique, and Zambia. And I went there and my eyes were just opened, you know, someone who grew up in Orange County, just open up to a different way of living a different lifestyle. And it really changed. It changed my life. And I came back and you think after two weeks, or you know, you go on a retreat, you go on a missions trip, you get back into the daily life, and you kind of forget that invigorating feeling, and that joy that you experience, obviously, there was a lot of hardship. But on that trip, we did a lot of discipleship, we hosted games for kids. We went and did gospel outreach in the communities met with chiefs. And got to know got to know the community. And after that, I was I came back and I was living at my parents house working at a local coffee shop. It was right kind of in the middle of the recession. So finding jobs is hard. And I was applying to colleges to become a registered dietician. And I kept getting denial after denial, and it just was not working out. That's the path that I thought I wanted to go down. And I remember one night that I just broke down. And like I said, I'm a Christian. So I said, God, like give me an answer. I will submit to you like, show me something that you want me to do, because this is not working out. And what I want isn't working. And that literally that next day, the guy who led the missions trip called my dad, because they were good friends at the time. It was like, Hey, does Haley want to go make peanut butter and Malawi for a year? And I went to go, my dad was like, hey, like, do you want to do this? So I met with a guy that is he was a former lawyer, and I met in his office and he presented me the idea. And I was like, Yes, I will send me I will go. And this is about eight months after my initial trip. And he was like Haley literally go home and pray on it. Like you gotta think about this overnight. And I was like, nope, what are we doing? How are we doing this? And this really evolved out of this idea that, you know, with the original missions trip that we went on, they were trying to end malaria deaths for all children under five. But they found that these children were still passing away because they didn't have the nutrition table to fight disease. And the original founder had heard about this company on 60 minutes with Anderson Cooper about ready to use therapeutic food that was making tremendous difference in children experiencing malnutrition. So I got out my mom's KitchenAid mixers in her kitchen. And luckily, this company who had developed this product gave us the formula obviously with the agreement that if we ever sold it, they would get a royalty off of it. But we've I started making peanut butter in my parents kitchen, and in August of 2012. I moved to Malawi, for For about two years and then went back and forth for for two years leaning missions trips and checking on the mission. And then I literally started, I always like to say this is like a fun fact is I literally started a peanut butter factory from scratch, and learned how to make it UNICEF approved. So my last trip was to Copenhagen to a UNICEF conference that was on this product, to literally it's kind of like, they're kind of like the FDA, if you will, like of regulation for this product. And there's very specific tests you have to do. We had to send our product to London, to get it tested before we could give it out to people and get the test results back. And because some things in the peanut butter, because there is a milk powder in it, there could be bacteria, and also the way that people prepare the nuts. Could be there can be aflatoxin, if they get wet. And people generally put rocks in it. Or if they sell bags, they put they get them wet so that they way more way more. Yeah, yeah, so we actually started a co op of peanut farmers that would then sell it to a business and they would make the good price. And then they would blend in roast them for us. And then we had a whole factory that we developed that was next to a hospital. Meanwhile, while I'm building this, I'm also living in an apartment with three other Germans, German ladies, and we didn't have water, we now have water in our apartment. So we had someone who would come and clean our house daily, she also made the most amazing bread. And she would go to the well and get us water each day. And we would have to heat it up and heat it up in the water heater, and then you take a bath out of the bucket. And so that's how that's how I lived. And then we were finally able to get water. Yeah, that's a really amazing and hard experience. I think I learned a lot about, you know, I was 24 at the time, so a lot about myself and a lot about other people's cultures and how to really, really work with a diverse group of people.

Michael Hingson 17:17How, how well, was the whole mission effort, especially at the beginning, how well was it accepted? Was there a lot of skepticism as you came in and wanted to start this whole manufacturing process? And all that? Or did people feel that it made perfect sense or what? Yeah,

Haley Cooper 17:37that's a good question. So we had to get approval by a few people. So when was the so there's a hierarchical system in the villages. And I remember we had to go to the chief have to there's chiefs that run each village. And then there's like the chief of the chief, and we went to her house, and we had to bring her like six chickens and a goat or something. And we waited in her house. And we had to ask her for permission to start this, we weren't able to start it unless we had permission from her. And luckily, she granted, we we made the case that we were going to bring it out into villages, because a lot of people would travel at least 20 miles to go to the hospital. And we found that, you know, they're waiting till the last minute. And so we wanted to go out into the health care centers and deliver this product to the to the healthcare screening so that people didn't have to wait till the last minute, because if they're traveling, they're missing a day of getting water cooking for their family. And so we were able to bring it out and get their approval, and then we obviously had to get them allow government approval. And I think what else really helped was employing Malawian people to run the factory. So we wanted to get buy in from the local people and be able to empower them to have jobs.

Michael Hingson 19:06So were you able to see a difference that you made in the time that you were there because you started providing the peanut butter and is it you've referred to it as peanut butter, but you've also said it's a food I guess there's a lot of other stuff in it isn't just peanut butter.

Haley Cooper 19:26Yeah, so in the product, there's peanut butter. It literally tastes like the inside of a Reese's Peanut Butter Cup. Because there is sugar, there's sugar in it milk, a protein powder. And I think that was all that was it. Okay. So it is very nutritious each it's like in a packet and each packet has 500 calories in it. So it was an enclosed package. So we had like this, we would put the peanut butter in it and then put it in the package and seal it and we did on an hour average of two weeks, like kids were making leaps and bounds, they were gaining weight, they were healthy. I mean, health, healthy as a relative term, getting healthier from things, we also use it to help. Mothers with, or individuals with HIV tend to be more mothers that are identified people with tuberculosis so that they could fight the disease. And also for that people who are taking HIV medicine, they need that protein to be able to digest the medicine. And so we are able, we're seeing that, you know, it really was working. And, you know, we also partnered with another organization that would provide supplemental food, called Luke Cooney, Paula, to help supplement the rest of the family, because we did find that, you know, if a kid is getting it, sometimes the family you know, everyone shares everything. And so we had to be able to supplement it so the kid can actually get the beneficial nutrients from that product.

Michael Hingson 21:03Did they eat it straight? Or did they put it on bread? Or how was it generally taken in?

Haley Cooper 21:10Both so gonna just cut out cut open the Sasha and eat it? Or they would mix it into their porridge? Or they call it in Sema, which is pretty much it's kind of like a mashed potato bow bun kind of consistency. It's made of corn powder. And that's what they would mix it with me. Okay.

Michael Hingson 21:33But you certainly gained acceptance for, for providing this and people realize that it was doing good for them.

Haley Cooper 21:42Yes, yes, I would, I would agree with that statement.

Michael Hingson 21:45So you did this for a couple of years. And then why? Well, it doesn't continue today. Why did you leave? Or did you feel that it had grown that to the point where it could could go on without you or what? So

Haley Cooper 22:03it still does exist today? I have, like I said, I'm been involved since 2016. And, you know, I moved back after two years, and I got involved with our local AFP Association of Fundraising Professionals chapter and really learned about fundraising and found that I really enjoyed it. And it just came to a time where I think like you said, like it had grown to a point where I felt comfortable leaving and letting other people there was a Malawian Country Director kind of run. And then there's another founder that from the US that kind of oversees it. Not the original founder, but one of the original founders does. And so, you know, I had joined this AFP Association really got involved in the local community. And really, that's really what started my fundraising journey over the last 1011 years, is getting involved in local community, mostly organizations serving people experiencing homelessness, and youth experiencing homelessness and hunger.

Michael Hingson 23:10So you came back? And what what did you do first, when you came back? Or how did you evolve to what you're doing now? What did you start with? And what do you do?

Haley Cooper 23:22So it was funny, because, as you know, I was a founder and executive director right at 2425 20 sites. And I had to start from the bottom again, I had to go back to being an entry level development person, which was actually really beneficial, because it helped me learn a lot about the ins and outs and intricacies of fundraising. So I was working for a local organization that was helping kids experiencing homelessness from kindergarten to 12th grade. And then I think they expanded to college because they found that the need was still great here locally. And since then, you know, I've just gained really valuable experiencing by working in these fundraising roles, like starting from the bottom. My last role was as Director of Development. I've worked at both large and small nonprofits. So I have seen it all. And I've seen that I really, you know, when I was in person really enjoyed the grassroots organizations that, you know, a lot of the ones that I had been hired at, had been around for 30 years, but never prioritized fundraising. They had been so focused on programs. And then they came to a point where they're like, well, we want to go our programs, but we need fundraising. And fundraising is always a board term that people scare away from and they're like, we don't we don't like fundraising. We, we don't want to I just did a board training last week and they were like, We don't know anyone. We don't want to fundraise and I was like you're my favorite person. I'm gonna get that mindset change. Yeah, and this is serious just working on all these levels. All of these different organizations just helped me understand like the challenges and opportunities and emotional whirlwind that it can be working in the nonprofit sector.

Michael Hingson 25:12So let's talk about the whole idea of fundraising a little bit. I've been in professional sales, basically, all of my adult life. And I still think as a speaker, I'm in sales. Now I, as I love to tell people selling philosophy and life as opposed to computers, but still, the sales processes there. I've met a lot of fundraisers and I worked at Guide Dogs for the Blind, which is a pretty large charity up in Northern California and one of the largest in California, and certainly the largest guide dog school in the country. And in dealing with all of the development folks up there and meeting a lot of people at the association, fundraising professionals in San Francisco, they love to say fundraising isn't sales, it's totally different. And it's not the same. And you can't look at it the same. What do you think

Haley Cooper 26:05about that? So I think there's aspects of fundraising that is salesy, and I think salespeople can come into fundraising roles and vice versa. I think the thing that is different is sales is based on a transaction. So it's based on getting a service in return and paying a price. I think in fundraising what, what it should be, obviously, some people still treat it as a transaction, exchanging informational, it should be helping people realize their greatest potential through your mission. And I had someone on my podcast last week, talking about like, helping people realize their generosity, helping people become their most generous selves, their most their highest potential, because we all know the benefits of generosity, we all know the benefits of giving. And my role is to help understand as a fundraiser, what that looks like for you. And then once you give, once you give, reporting back to you how that's making a difference. So I think that's that's the difference. It's not just me asking you for money. It's me, trying to figure out what your passions and interests are, how that aligns with our mission, and then helping you fulfill those passions and interests. By investing in the area that you're you're interested in. See,

Michael Hingson 27:22I have a slightly different view of sales. And my career in sales began when I was called into an office and I was doing basically different kinds of human factors studies for Ray Kurzweil and computer Kurzweil Computer Products, dealing with reading machine for the blind and another technologies and finding out how to make them be better. I was called in one day and was told well, we're having to lay you off because you're not a revenue producer. And we need more revenue producers, unless you want to go into sales. And what I chose to do was to go into sales, I felt that God was leading me to do that. I had moved to Boston, and I didn't want to go off and try to find another job, especially when the unemployment rate among employable blind people back then, and still pretty much today is in the 65 to 70% range. But anyway, I took a 10 week, Dale Carnegie's sales course. And what I learned is that real sales, is, you can say that there's a transaction that takes place. But real sales is a lot more about being a teacher and a counselor, and learning what the customer needs. And seeing if what you say and what you can do, and if you can provide something to help meet those needs. And the reality is I've had situations where I've done demonstrations for customers, and even going into the demonstration and conversing with them learned that what we had wouldn't work for filling all of their needs. But I went ahead and did our product demonstrations for the purpose of saying, here's why what we have doesn't work. But the other side of that is by doing that. I was also building trust, and teaching people a lot about the technologies so that oftentimes we would get calls sometime later saying, we have another project and we understand what your product does, and it's perfect for what we want to do. So we're not even going to put it out for bid just give us a quote. But the reality is that the sales part is really more about teaching and developing and report, which is a lot of what happens in fundraising. Unfortunately, I think a lot of salespeople don't realize that.

Haley Cooper 29:52Yeah, that I mean, that's valid. I like that. I like that reflection of what sales is, I think both in the comments All it is relationship building, and building that rapport, before you go to the transaction that is inevitable to happen if you've done your homework and you build that relationship. Yeah, you

Michael Hingson 30:11got to do that otherwise, it doesn't work in the long run. And I've actually, as a public speaker, now, I've met people who I sold to many years before, and they would come up to me and say, Do you remember me, and sometimes I recognize their voices, but sometimes I didn't. But when they said who it was, we had all sorts of great conversations about it. But again, it was because of building the trust. And I think that's what real sales is all about. And the fact we're all if we're really cognizant of what we do in life, we're all selling in one way or another. And a lot of times, what we should be selling is being open to trust, and developing trusting relationships. And, you know, we are we are seeing in our society so much today, a lack of trust, or a lack of even being open to trust, because the people that we should be trusting aren't doing anything to earn our trust, which is also one unfortunate thing.

Haley Cooper 31:14Yeah, and yeah, and I've seen that a lot in the nonprofit sector as well. Of, of that lack of trust, to giving, but I think, like you said, it is all about building that trust. And you know, on the board training I did last week, I was like, if you build that trust, if you build those relationships, because board members get there like we don't, we don't like asking, I'm not going to ask people for money. Now it's like, well, you don't have to ask for money, you can ask for advice. But the asking comes easy. If you have built that trust, if you have built that relationship, because it is so aligned, that it makes sense to ask that person if they're willing to give X amount of dollars, whatever, whatever it is, but it is all built on that trust and connection with the mission with the person who's facilitating that investment. Because otherwise, people don't want to give. Yeah,

Michael Hingson 32:08so the people you were training last week, what were some of the backgrounds of the people who said they didn't like to ask for money.

Haley Cooper 32:16And a lot of educational, higher ed professionals, like they did not have a network of people to ask. So or the financial ability to ask and to give. But we know that there's more than financial ability, what I coached them on was asking for advice. So if you ask for advice, I don't know the quote. But if you ask for advice, people give money. And so I think people in I don't remember the quote. But yeah, inviting people in and asking in a different way. And then also, you know, could you give $5 a month, instead of, you know, we've all heard that, like, give $5 instead of purchasing a Starbucks drink, which is now like $10, for one? Could you invite them to do like peer to peer fundraising? So is people who felt they didn't really have assets now to be more than network now to be able to give, but I kind of did the bubble chart with them. Or it was like, Where do you hang out? Like, what do you do identify one or two people of where you hang out? Whether that's like the gym or religious plays a chamber of commerce, your workplace, your family, friends? And then tell them about the mission? Like, yeah, people don't like my husband always has to remind me that I have a network of people that I can like, talk to you. Sometimes you just need that reminder that there are people out there.

Michael Hingson 33:41Well, and another thing to look at is, what is teaching? Isn't that really a form of sales in a way because you're you're selling students on the idea of gaining knowledge. And the better teachers are the ones that can establish again that relationship and convey knowledge in a way that makes students want to pick it up. And if that isn't sales, I don't know what is.

Haley Cooper 34:09Well, Annie, you know, this organization is serving at promise youth and it pairs college people, college students with kids K through eight, or I think that's what it is. But they understand, you know, what these youth experience. I mean, one in five students in California and the community college system are experiencing homelessness and hunger, so they understand it. So I'm like, Well, you understand it at a level of the students that have come across to you. So they have that level of passion and story that they can share. From that level of knowledge.

Michael Hingson 34:48I really do believe that the best salespeople are teachers, first and foremost. And I think that's also true for fundraising, having been been very much involved in development work for six and a half years it Guide Dogs for the Blind. And it was fascinating to hear the development people say, this isn't a salesy thing at all. Well, they really need to maybe go back and look at things, but it's like so many things, people create their own mystique about what they do, rather than looking for the commonalities and ways to establish up a more synergistic relationship.

Haley Cooper 35:30Yeah, I mean, I have to go back to them and say, like, you're a teacher, you make the perfect fundraiser?

Michael Hingson 35:35Well, yeah, I mean, look what you're doing, you're, you're only trying to sell knowledge and convince people that they should learn this stuff, why should they learn it. And that's actually an interesting thing in society, we seeing all the stuff going on around the country, and whether it's book banning, or all the other things and people trying to talk about this whole concept of, we can't have critical race theory, or we have so many different things they, they're trying to, again, to, to sell stuff that makes no sense. Or there are a number of good teachers who are trying to sell things that do make good sense. And I think the biggest thing that we can teach people is to really evaluate for themselves, which is another whole story. Rather than just accepting, even from the best teachers, the best teachers would tell you go research it yourself and learn it. Because ultimately, teachers can't teach us all they can do is convey the knowledge we have to teach ourselves. That's good. You know, I used to say, I'm my own worst critic, and I realized earlier this year, actually, not the thing to say, I'm my own best teacher, because I am the one that's going to have to teach me to do whatever it is. And it's also a much more positive thing to say that.

Haley Cooper 36:52Yeah, like that perspective, anything out of our own, it's always a learning opportunity, right? To teach us something. Yeah. And

Michael Hingson 37:00that's just as much what fundraising is all about. Because you're, you're teaching people you want them to, to give, but you also want them to understand what's going on. And it is so hard, I think, for so many people here to realize what it must have been like in Malawi or, and other places, because we've not really as a society overall experienced a lot of that. I haven't experienced a lot of the poverty that that you have probably seen, and other people have seen, and I've been to a number of countries, but I've seen enough that I can understand it and relate to it. And I've also seen how blind people and people with physical disabilities are oftentimes treated here. Again, because people don't know how to relate. And we're not doing enough to really educate people about some of these things to get them to the point where they would be maybe much more apt to want to contribute to address the issues.

Haley Cooper 38:03Yeah, I definitely agree with that. I think the role is a fundraiser is to educate to educate people on the cause. Because, you know, like I said, I grew up in Orange County, and most people think of Newport Beach. But when it comes down to it, there's over, I don't know what the status is now. But when I was working with youth facing organizations are about 28,000 kids experiencing homelessness. And so you think of, you know, you think of Disneyland you think of Newport Beach, and so it was our role to explain what that looks like, like, what does homelessness look like for a family and also in inspire and inform? So I think those are the three areas that we have the privilege of fundraisers or nonprofit professionals. It's part of our responsibility is to educate, inform and inspire.

Michael Hingson 38:50Yeah, I think that's absolutely true. And maybe that's the most important part of the responsibility, because people have to start doing more thinking. And I certainly don't have any problem with somebody saying, Well, I hear what you're saying, but I'm going to check it out for myself. My response is go to it. But make sure you really check it out. And then let's talk about it. And you learn very quickly, who really checks things out and who doesn't, but it still is the way to do it. Yeah, I agree. So it's kind of fun. And I don't know, the world is an interesting place. And I think over time, we'll, we'll see that people will. I think, when they really think about it, we'll learn to investigate, but we've got to get back to encouraging people to do that. And one of the things I talk about a lot, and I mentioned it earlier is the whole issue of trust. We have so many environments where trust is under attack in our country. And that's the difference between us and dogs, right dogs don't trust arbitrarily. They love unconditionally but they don't trust unconditionally. but dogs are more open to trust, unless they've just been so abused. But typically, dogs are much more open to trust, and they want to establish a trusting relationship. We need to learn how to do more of that ourselves.

Haley Cooper 40:15Yeah, I heard you say that on another podcast. I don't remember his name. But you had mentioned that and I was I was that that piqued my interest. And I think, you know, people have to do their due diligence because there's so much stuff, it readily access to things that you have to do you have to discern the truth for yourself and understand what is the truth and facilitate that trust? Yeah.

Michael Hingson 40:41It's important to do that, when that will also tell you and teach you who you can trust or not trust. Yeah, that's true. So, anyway. So now do you work for yourself? Or do you work for a company or what?

Haley Cooper 40:59So I had I in 2022, I embarked on my entrepreneurial journey to start my own business. I am a mom of now three kids under four. And working as a full time director development just wasn't realistic. When of my son, my oldest son is adopted, and he had some developmental delays. And so the all of 2022 was really dedicated to getting him services and working full time just wasn't realistic. Because as a fundraiser, you have to be available in mornings at all hours. And that just, you know, as becoming a mom, that just wasn't realistic. So I started my own business called the savvy fundraiser. And it's evolved in the last few years that it started. But you know, one thing that really, I found, and I'm trained in a process called the EMC process, it's about emotional connection. And that's, that's an area that, you know, I help facilitate psychological safety and trust within teams. You know, I've done the fundraising roles, I've done the fundraising trainings, but I truly believe that fundraise inside job, we have to take care of ourselves, we have to understand the language of emotions. And also, you know, it's, it's always a two fold thing, like it's an individual thing, but it's also a systemic thing. Because burnout is so pervasive in our culture, people are leaving, there's high turnover. And that that costs the sector a lot of money. And we're already limited resources. And so how can we better invest in our people and invest in ourselves to be able to do the work that we intend to do so my focus right now is group coaching and creating masterminds, but like I said, I also do trainings that help create emotional connection and buy in among staff members, so that they can actually focus on their fundraising efforts. And part of that is, you know, really understanding the language of emotions, because there's a lot of, you know, nonprofits, it's an emotional world. And like I said before, and we're seeing the hardest issues. And it can take us through, you know, the depths of sadness and anger to profound joy, where I saw a kid getting healthy, or a kid having access to food so that they can focus at school and getting good grades, and graduating college. And I think, you know, it's not just essential for our well being, but just building this idea of a culture of emotional connection. And facilitating that within ourselves, can actually increase your productivity. So that's where I'm at right now is really focusing on this process, and helping leaders understand the language of emotion and practice mindfulness practices, so that they can get back to that creative state of being. What

Michael Hingson 43:53does EMC stand for? emotional connection, it is emotional connection. Yeah, so the EM is emotional and then connection. That's

Haley Cooper 44:02right. And it was developed by Dr. Lola Gershenfeld, who is a mentor and coach of mine, and she developed it based on decades of experience. And you know, I found her in 2017 No, sorry, 2019 When I was in the midst of an organization that had a lot of burnout and stress, and I don't want to say toxicity, but that's probably too steep of a word, but there was there was just this, I should say disconnection between team members between me and the IDI and I'll totally on my part in that, but it was this lack of emotional disconnection, where we no longer felt in the team that we were safe. We didn't really trust each other we didn't feel seen or heard. And so you know, in those moments, productivity and effectiveness go down. So I thought out low let and I'm one of those people who likes to go all in so I was like, I want to become a trainer in this process. I See this in multiple organizations where people are really reactive. And when you know, we go into that flight or fight response, your amygdala is activated, and it takes over your prefrontal cortex and you're no longer able to communicate or collaborate. So my role is to really help, like calm your amygdala so you can get back to doing the work that you do. And that's by naming specific emotions. Because emotions are our high processing system, they tell us if we're in flight or fight mode, they help us go into that protection mode. And so they run fast. And so my job is to help you understand specific emotions, because from a science standpoint, it does help relax that amygdala and be able to turn on, like, be able to reconnect with each other.

Michael Hingson 45:50Well, and unfortunately, we're living in a world today where fear is all around us. And people mark it with fear. And they're, they're doing things to stir up emotions. And again, people don't take the time to analyze, which is what really tends to drive people nuts after a while, because by not taking the time to slow down and be a little bit more mindful, they just become afraid or whatever. I'm actually writing a book called Live like a guide dog lessons I learned from a guide dogs in my life, by I forget the exact wording of the, the, the subtitle. But the whole point is that we're basing it around lessons I've learned from working with a guide dogs about how to control fear. And the reality is that we don't need to be as I would put it, blinded by fear, we can learn if we practice mindfulness, like you talked about. And if we really work at it, we can learn not to just go off the deep end, just because something unexpected happens like an airplane crashes into a building that we're in, or any number of other things that we can learn to let that fear be a strong motivator and a guide and an incentive to us.

Haley Cooper 47:16Yeah, I'll be interested to read that book. Because I think fear is a huge thing in the nonprofit sector. I mean, especially as case managers or social workers, like if you're not on call, if you're not, you're working with the hardest issues, you're seeing the hardest issues, you're seeing people living on the street, you're seeing women being abused, you're seeing children being abused. And so if you're not working, like you're afraid that something bad is gonna happen. And so you have to you're in that flight and fight mode all the time. Because you're still focused on that fear, which is a valid fear, obviously, which is

Michael Hingson 47:54a valid fear, but you can't be valid, but you have to get beyond it and not let it be the only thing that that drives you rather than being more strategic.

Haley Cooper 48:04Yeah, definitely.

Michael Hingson 48:07Now, my cat says she's abused all the time. So I, you know, I'm not sensitive to fear. But no, it's, but I hear what you're saying. And you're absolutely right. And people who are very committed to the the, the things that they do in the nonprofit world are, are very committed, because they, they appreciate it, they understand it, and they want to be successful and can't argue with that.

Haley Cooper 48:34Yeah, and you think when, you know, part of this process, we go through different stages, and one of them is about fear. So, you know, we asked, like, how do you feel in your body emotions are stored in your body? And then, you know, I walked through this process with a family member because they were experiencing deep burnout. And I was like, What's your fear? Like, what are you fear about yourself about the organization, about the relationship, and it was that they were going to let that person down, or the organization was going to run out of money. And once we were able to really understand where that fear was from and the emotion surrounding that, because this person was stuck, like they were not able to move forward. And there was a clear path ahead. But they couldn't get to that because they were stuck in that fear. Just by naming it and understanding how they thought that fear impacted their relationships and themselves. They were able to make a decision. And that decision was to leave the organization. But it just helped them see that bigger picture and be able to be like, Oh, this makes sense. This is valid. But there's also another way.

Michael Hingson 49:44We always think we have to be in control of everything. And the reality is there is so much that we don't directly have control over and one of the lessons that I talked about, and I'm sure you've heard it on another podcast where we've talked about it is don't worry about the things that you can't control focus Something that you can, because if you worry about everything else, you're just going to drive yourself crazy.

Haley Cooper 50:06Yes, I'm a recovering control freak. So that that applies to be.

Michael Hingson 50:11Well, we all have some of that, you know, and it is hard to let go. But it's important to learn to to let go. Now, you said your oldest son is adopted. Tell me about that. That must have been quite a challenge to go through.

Haley Cooper 50:26Yeah, so you know, prior to 2019, my husband, I've been married for nine years now, I think eight and a half. I should, I should do the math. And either the first at least five years, we were like, we don't well, specifically me, I was like, I don't want kids, let's just live our life. But you know, working in shelters, and just seeing the heartbreak. Really. And then, you know, having a kid when I was in Malawi, he was 12. And I was 24 at the time was like, I'm going home with you, you're gonna adopt me. You know, I think, you know, if you are a believer, this is kind of God's call for me. He saved my life by going to Malawi, and then he really helped cultivate my heart for having children. And in 2018, I remember I was sitting in a shelter. And I heard a mom who, you know, had some mental health issues, say her five year old was too broken to be loved. And I was a fundraiser. So I wasn't really involved in the process. But I remember just breaking down and being so sad for that five year old and beat every single child, and I mean parent to deserves to be loved. And I went home, and you know, foster care. And adoption has been a story in my husband's side of the family. He has two adopted brothers. And I went home to him. And I was like, hey, guess what we're doing? We're gonna be some foster parents. And he was like, that just came out of left field. What like, Who are you is, are you my wife. And I, he was like, if you do the homework, I will go on this journey with you. So we decided to go through the county. And it took us about nine months, six to nine months to do all the training, you have to do a number of trainings. And, you know, he's broke my heart when you saw the, the movies or the show, like they had a number of videos of children who were like, Yeah, we were fostered. But every time the parents went on vacation, they would leave us home. We weren't allowed to go with them. And you know, as this process, we wanted to really take in a child and love them and give them the experiences that they deserved. And we became certified in March of 2020. When everything shut down, we literally got the notice like two days before everything shut down. And our social worker was like, there's no kids in the system. And whether that's because they were all fostered out. There's about 3000 children at any given day in the foster care system in Orange County. So or they weren't being identified because they weren't in school or after school activities. And that's where a lot of kids get identified. So we were just kind of sitting with a certification at home, trying to figure out what to do, and praying about it. And because you wanted a baby, and I get a call about a month later from my uncle, who was like, hey, a family member had her child taken away. And and he had seen that I had posted it on Facebook that I was a foster care parent. And so about in May of 2020, may 21 2020 is when we met our son, I will never forget it. He was so happy. We had to meet him in mass until we gotten to the car. We couldn't kiss him like in front of the social workers. We had to drive down to San Diego. And we picked him up and he's been in our family ever since. So we officially adopted him on my birthday two years ago. So I got engaged on my birthday and adopted a child on my birthday. No, I tell my husband adoption was a better gift. But don't tell him that. Wow, tough crowd. You're kidding. I'm just kidding. But they're wonderful guests.

Michael Hingson 54:08Where is he anyway? Go ahead.

Haley Cooper 54:10He's listening. He's rolling in the other room. And so yeah, I was so happy that we were able to and it was funny because we hadn't gotten any calls. And the day that I got him that next week, the next five days, I got a call each day saying hey, we have because we are emergency parents too. So we were we said like if there's someone who's just bored, we will take them out of the hospital like fresh baby. And you know, the challenge is that is you don't know what's going on. You don't know if they were on drugs, whatever. I literally got a call every single day that week, asking if we would take like a sibling pair or because we always said we would take somebody in Paris to so I had to put our foster care on pause because now I have three kids and it's funny last week actually got a call from our new social worker and I was like I'm not ready to open that door yet. I don't think it's closed. I think we probably will in the future. But yeah, it was. It's a really beautiful journey. And I'm so glad that he entered our life first and really feels like he's, I mean, he's my son. He's only called me mom. And every time I pick him up from school, and he runs with a big smile, saying, Mommy, I just don't take it for granted. And I'm just so grateful that I have the privilege of being his mom. But

Michael Hingson 55:24the real burning question is, what about that now? 24 year old from Malawi? Is he going to come and knock at your door and say, hi, mom.

Haley Cooper 55:33I don't know. His name is frm. And he was our first client in Malawi. And he was he was 16 Or no, how old was he? I think he was 12. But he had the body of like an eight year old, because he's so malnourished. Yeah. And he walked into her office, and he pointed me out. And he said, and then we followed up with him a couple months later, and he was happy and healthy. And yeah, I always remember that him telling me he wanted me to adopt him. And I was like, I'm just a child myself.

Michael Hingson 56:07Do you ever hear from him seriously? Or any more I hear about

Haley Cooper 56:10him? No, I haven't. But I

Michael Hingson 56:14bet he'll never forget you. Because of all the things that you did. I've had as a as a student teacher, I've had students who I taught, and years later, and I never recognized her voice. It's changed so much. But they come up and say, Hey, Mr. Ensign, do you remember me, and this is a deep voice guy, you know when it is cool, but it's always nice to know that you make a difference. But you're not making the difference just to satisfy your own ego, you're doing it because you want to, to do good things. And it's always neat when you when you get to see the benefits of all that.

Haley Cooper 56:53Well, and I think honestly, my life was changed more than maybe i i changed other people's lives unintentionally. So I think other people impacted me just as much.

Michael Hingson 57:05Yeah, well, and that says it should be you, you get the chance to have other kinds of experiences and so on. And that's how we learn.

Haley Cooper 57:16Yes, I definitely agree with that.

Michael Hingson 57:20So what kind of advice would you give to young, aspiring fundraisers today that want to make a difference and are starting out just thinking they're gonna conquer the world?

Haley Cooper 57:31I love this question. And I get asked it all the time

Michael Hingson 57:33 I bet you do.

Haley Cooper 57:37Build a network and get a mentor. So I would say mentorship. First, when I first got into fundraising AFP, at least our local chapter offers a mentorship program. So I joined I mean, I'm one of those people if I joined something, I go all in. So I joined AFP. And I did their mentorship program, and out of that place, and now an organization that I'm a Board Chair of I just over the years, I've been able to build a network. So those relationships have helped me find clients now. But also, they're just people that help you navigate the ups and downs and help you brainstorm ideas. So mentorship, or coaching in a network of people that you can rely on. One

Michael Hingson 58:19of the things that I have always done, and I always encourage people to do especially, but not only when they're starting out a new job, but even on the job is picture yourself as a student first, especially when you're starting out. You can be a student for a year. And you can, as you pointed out earlier, ask lots of questions. And people mostly love to relate to people, where they're asked questions, and they can convey knowledge, and help guide people, people love to do that. But I think that playing if you will, the student card for your first year on a new job is a reasonable thing to do. But I also think that even the most experienced person, other people are going to come along with experiences and different perspectives that are just as relevant and may show you something that you didn't even think of. And so we should always be interested in learning and never think that we know it all.

Haley Cooper 59:23Anything sometimes you know, when you're like focusing on something so hard, like you need that outside perspective to take you out of the bubble and help you give that new perspective. And honestly, if you ask questions to people, like you said, people are like, I have people who don't, they're busy. They don't need to meet with me, but they do and I think that's the important part is if you're going to take time with either a mentor or a network of people. I mean obviously relationships are first and you want to make it authentic, but make it intentional. Like if you have quiet come with questions to your mentor come with goals that you Want to work on make it intentional. So it's a beneficial time for both you and the mentor.

Michael Hingson 1:00:06And that's the real operative part about it. It's for both of you. And make no mistake, your mentor will be learning along the way as well. If they're any good at all. Yeah, I

Haley Cooper 1:00:19would agree with that.

Michael Hingson 1:00:21I love to try to make people laugh. I know when I go through airports, I always try to make the TSA people laugh, because they have such a thankless job. But even today, on the phone, I had to call someone, and then ask a question. And when they when they answered, they, of course, didn't know me. They didn't know who I was. But the first thing they said is, so how can I help you? And I said, Well, I'm looking for a million dollars, can you just shoot that right out? And that was the whole point is that they laughed. And you know, we kind of went from there. And I really think that we need to respect people more. People always ask me how much I will charge to, to give a speech. And I don't want to abuse anyone too much. But I always love to tell people. Well, in 2016, Hillary Clinton got $250,000 for speaking to Goldman Sachs. And I think I'm worth as least as much as she is. Nobody's taking me seriously with that. Yeah, nobody said no problem. We can give you that. Very disappointing, you know?

Haley Cooper 1:01:23Yeah, yeah, definitely. Humor is an important part and treat treating people with respect. I always, you know, my big thing is like, if you're a minute grocery store, and it's taking a long time, you go to the cashier, you're next and they always apologize. And I'm like, hey, it's fine. Like, not I tried to go with Yeah, Grace, instead of being like, I've been waiting here for 10 minutes, you can just figure it out. Because you know, they're getting that all day by other people's have that one kind interaction? You never know what that'll do for their day? No.

Michael Hingson 1:01:57And it doesn't, and you don't need to know, sometimes you will find out and and always will be a positive thing. But you don't need to know, it's still important to do it.

Haley Cooper 1:02:07Definitely, yeah.

Michael Hingson 1:02:09Well tell me if people want to reach out to you and learn more about what you do. Maybe explore using your services and so on. How do they do that?

Haley Cooper 1:02:18So I'm pretty active on LinkedIn. It's Haley Cooper CFRE. And Haley is spelled H a l e y. And then Cooper's C o o p e r, that's my very name. And also the savvy fundraiser.com. My business is the savvy fundraiser. So mostly on LinkedIn is probably where I hang out. And you can always connect with me DM me, and I would love to chat. Well,

Michael Hingson 1:02:45that is how we connected and I'm so glad that we did. I really appreciate you coming on and being with this and spending an hour chatting about all this, we'll have to do more of it. When are you going to write a book about fundraising and all the things that you do?

Haley Cooper 1:03:00You know, maybe in a couple years when my kids are older, but someone did tell me that that is on my growth trajectory is to write a book. So are you going to?

Michael Hingson 1:03:10Well, I believe everyone has stories to tell. And even if you need help writing it, it's worth doing. So I hope that that you will do it. That'll be fun that you'll have to come back and tell us all about it.

Haley Cooper 1:03:25That sounds great.

Michael Hingson 1:03:26And we'll let you know when live like a guide dog comes out.

Haley Cooper 1:03:30Well, thank you so much, Michael, you've been such a gift to me, and I've really enjoyed talking to you.

Michael Hingson 1:03:36Well, let's stay in touch. And I hope that all of you listening out there will stay in touch as well. We really appreciate you listening. Hayley and I both do. We'd love to hear from you. You know how to reach her and you can reach me as well. You can email me Michaelhi at accesibe A C C E S S I B E.com. Or go to www dot Michael hingson.com/podcast. And hingson is h i n g s o n. Love to hear your thoughts love to hear what you thought about our episode today. Hopefully it was positive and that you learned something and took something away from it. Wherever you are, and however you're listening, please give us a five star rating. We really appreciate your ratings and your comments. And of course, Haley, for you. And for any of you out there who are so inclined if you know anyone else who want to be a guest on unstoppable mindset, please let us know we'd love to hear about more people. We're always looking to meet people. And my belief is everyone has a story to tell. So come and tell your stories with us. But again, Haley for you. I really appreciate you being with us today. And hopefully we can do this again. So I just want to thank you again for being here.

Haley Cooper 1:04:47Thank you.

Michael Hingson 1:04:51You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visitwww.accessibe.com. AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

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Mike Coughlin was born in 1947 and had what most people would say is a somewhat normal childhood. I would agree, but it is relevant to say that Mike was diagnosed in the second grade with youth related Macular Degeneration. While he did not lose all his eyesight, he lost enough that reading, especially out loud in school, was not doable for him. In fact, his eye specialists did not even tell him that he was what we classify today as legally blind. Michael did not learn the true extent of his eye condition until he was in his twenties. He was not given access to what we call today assistive technology. Even so, he survived and flourished. He is an Eagle Scout and has achieved the highest rank in the Boy Scouts Order of the Arrow society.

Mike secured a college degree from the University of Notre Dame and a Master’s degree in Ocean Engineering from the University of Miami. Later he earned a second Master’s degree in systems management (MSSM) from the University of Southern California’s continuing education program.

He worked for General Dynamics for seven years. Then he went with his boss to work for 20 years at Bolt Beranek and Newman Inc in acoustics. He then worked, again as an underwater acoustical engineer, for 20 years at Boeing.

Michael is clearly unstoppable. He will discuss the various technologies he began to use although somewhat later in life. He also will discuss just how he accomplished so much and, as you will see, it is all about attitude.

About the Guest:

Until early in my second-grade year at St. John the Baptist Catholic grammar school in Fort Wayne, Indiana, no-one knew my eyes were changing. It was the eye screening they provided that singled me out as having a problem. My wonderful parents, Joseph and Dorothy Coughlin, transplants to Fort Wayne from New York City, started trying to find out what was wrong. Eventually they learned it was Macular Degermation, something rarely found in young people. My earliest years were spent on a farm outside of Fort Wayne as my parents had moved from New York to Fort Wayne due to a transfer by the General Electric Company, where my father was an engineer. The transfer included a move to a rural rental farmhouse on a 40-acre farm and the birth of myself in 1947 and my brother two years later. My mother, with a master’s degree in education from Columbia University, was raising my brother and I and teaching English at the local rural high school. During those four years my father took up hunting and growing a large garden, a big step for a kid from New York, and I learned about rural life with the ability to play on farm equipment and see many types of farm animals. Early on I wanted to be a farmer.

Once I reached school age, we moved into Fort Wayne for the schools. Fort Wayne is a middle sized Mid-west city of about 250,000 people. It was like so many Mid-western cities of that day. We lived outside the center of the city and my schools, both grammar and high school, were made up of middle-class children. As my sight degraded, I was taken to several ophthalmologists and to the University of Indiana Medical Center, but learned little helpful information other than the details of my situation. My teachers accommodated me by letting me sit in front of class and because my outload reading skills where poor did not call on me to read aloud. Interestingly, I seemed to be able to hold things close to my eyes and comprehend the text I saw silently. Because I passed all written tests and my classes with satisfactory grades, they gave me. OK grades and passed me. My shining moments during my grade school years came in my achievement as a Boy Scout. I attained the rank of Eagle Scout with a Bronze Palm and was selected for all three steps in the Order of the Arrow. I also was the senior patrol leader for our troop.

My years at Bishop Luers High School, a co-institutional Catholic school, were another matter. I succeeded from the start, earning high honors grades and selection as president of both the Junior and Senior National Honor Societies. I was a member of the yearbook staff and was given a leading part in the senior play. Although I am sure a number of the girls in my class had the higher grades, due to the non-mixing of most classes, class rankings were separated. So, I was 3rd in my class. of about 150 boys. I was also awarded the Indiana State Catholic Youth Leadership Award by the Knights of Columbus. I still had not been given information on my actual visual status nor information about assistive aides for the blind. Everything I did was by holding written materials close to my face, listening very attentively and not driving. I took the SAT and other tests such as an engineering aptitude test, I wanted to be like my father, an electrical engineer. I scored adequately on the SAT and highly on the aptitude test.

I applied to four mid-western colleges and was accepted in all and chose to attend the University of Notre Dame in south Bend, Indiana, which I thought would be fairly near home. The summer after high school, I was an exchange student to France, where I lived with a French family for seven weeks and my counterpart lived with our family for seven. It was a great experience, but while in France, I learned my father had taken a job in Philadelphia. On my return, together with my family and my French counterpart, Francise, we moved to Strafford, PA, outside of Philadelphia. The move took me to a new part of the country and my summers in Philly were full of excitement with the exploration of a big city and learning about the Jersey Shore. During those summers, I worked for General Electric as an engineering aide. College went very well too. Nort Dame was a good experience. It was competitive but their Electrical Engineering Department was staffed with excellent professors who helped me through every step, but not as a person with a visual disability because I rarely mentioned it to anyone. Honestly, I am not sure why, but I tried to be as normal seeming as possible. I learned to take notes from verbal descriptions of what was being written on the blackboard and if a professor did not verbalize the writing, I asked him to do so, and he did. If I missed something, I left a blank in my notebook and obtained the missing information from a friend. I completed all my course work and had a 3.5 grade average at graduation and was selected to the Eta-Kappa-Nu honorary Electrical Engineering Fraternity. ND won the football national championship my sophomore year and that was a real highlight.

During my senior year, it became obvious that due to a crash in the space program, jobs would be hard to find. I decided to go to graduate school and took the GRE and GMAT, again with no assistive help. One path I investigated was to get an MBA, and I had also heard from a friend, about Ocean Engineering. My advisor suggested I stay in engineer, because he felt my talents were best suited for it. Although I applied to several MBA programs, I also applied to the University of Miami in Ocean Engineering (OE). In addition to the advice I received to stay in engineering, it is possible the choice of Miami was because my brother was a sophomore there. I was accepted and given money at Miami, and the next year started my graduate studies in OE. Two years flew by during which I was married to my first wife Judi and I left Miami with an MS in OE. One course of suey in OE is underwater sound. It is focused on SONAR and is quite mathematical, just what an electrical engineer likes. During the summer of those two years, I was married to my first wife, Judi.

The job market was still tight, but I interviewed and was hired into the Sound and Vibration group at the Electric Boat Division of General Dynamics (GDEB) due to my studies in underwater sound. Once in Connecticut, I found a very good ophthalmologist, Dr. Kaplan, and for the very first time, was told I was legally blind and what that meant. We had some long discussions after which he voiced some displeasure on how little information I had been given on my situation. He said he had to register me with the state and set me up with a low vision specialist. Those steps led me to getting a Closed-Circuit TV (CCTV) magnifier and access to the Library for the Blind and Physically Handicapped (LBPH) and their Talking Book program. Both the CCTV and Talking Books opened my world to general reading and technical literature which I generally avoided due to the increasing strain of both the MD and the onset of myopia or age reeled eye changes. During seven years at GDEB I moved from engineer to supervisor and had the opportunity to earn a second master’s degree in systems management (MSSM) from the University of Southern California’s continuing education program offered at many military installations. For me it was at the submarine base in Groton CT. My wife and I bought a house and had our daughter, Laura.

In 1978, my boss at EB opened an opportunity for me by interacting with associates at Bolt Beranek and Newman Inc. (bbn), at the time, the foremost acoustics firm in the world. He opened a local, New London, CT, office of the firm and hired three of us to staff it. We continued working for the Navy, but as consultants. I stayed with bbn for twenty years and participated in many projects around the world. For the last ten years I was manager of a group of about 40 engineers and scientists, many ay of whom had Ph.D. or master’s degrees. bbn provided me with several CCTVs and a Xerox/Kurz well scanner-reader. bbn was an early adopter of Ap-le Macintosh computers. One of my associates immediately found that all Mac’s had magnification and text to speech features. This opened the computing world to me. (I had been able to deal with punch cards, but the computer screen with small letter left me out.) During these years, I was able to travel to Hawaii, Japan, and many cities in the US. My LBPH recorded books were constant companions. During this time, my daughter Laura was married and gave us a grandchild, Chloe.Throughout my working life, I have had the opportunity to give something back to several communities. I was on the advisory board for the Connecticut Stat Library for the Blind, on the Board of directors for CHRIS Radio, and on the Board of Directors for the Waterford Education Foundation I was president of a a Macular Support Group in Waterford, CT and am now on the Board of Directors for the Southeastern Connecticut Center of the Blind, where I conduct a support group for those with Macular on how to use digital technology.

Shifts in the Department of Defense (DOD) business world produced some big layoffs at bbn. Thus, in 2000, I was searching for a job and with the help of a friend, connected with a group at the Boeing Company that worked in the undersea world, as opposed to most of the company which did airborne things. They were looking for someone who lived on the east coast who had a background like their work. The group was in Anaheim, CA, and then in Huntington Beach, CA. I fit the profile and after an interview was offered a. job as an off-site Technical Representative. Since I had no other solid offers, I accepted feeling the job would last at least a few years. The relationship lasted over 20 and provided a very rewarding end to my career. Boeing, like bbn was totally accommodating to my assistive needs. Although they computer usage was based on Windows PC’s s, they provided me with special software which was now available on those platforms and with CCTV equipment as I needed. Someone was always available to assist in getting special software up and running. By the time I started with Boeing, LBPH cassette readers were small and made traveling with them quite easy. I also had a laptop with screen magnifier’/reader software and internet connectivity anywhere I needed ii. While at Boeing, family matters took some good and bad turns. My daughter and her husband had my second grandchild, Evan. The bad part is my long-time wife and partner, Judi, died of cancer. After the grieving time, where things seemed s unsteady. it all turned around, when I met and married my current wife, Karen. I am again on firm footing and life has not been better.

As I grew nearer retirement and brought up the subject with my supervisor, she had other ideas. She wanted me to keep working, however, I was able to reduce my work week to four and then three days. Finally, when I found a good replacement, she agreed to let me go. I had to stay in a two day a week consulting role for a year or so. I worked for Triad Systems Inc., a firm that provided part time support to aerospace firms on the west coast. On the home front , life proceeded without mishap.

I am now fully retired and working as a volunteer for the southeastern Connecticut Center of the Blind. God things have again arrived as Karen’s daughter, Kate, and her husband brought us another grandchild, Esme. Although most of the events above were very good, I am now happy in retirement and ready to do what I can to support others and to enjoy my family.

Ways to connect with Mike:

mjcoughl@aol.com

About the Host:Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.

Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children’s Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association’s 2012 Hero Dog Awards.

https://michaelhingson.comhttps://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/https://twitter.com/mhingsonhttps://www.youtube.com/user/mhingsonhttps://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/

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Transcription Notes

Michael Hingson 00:00Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visitwww.accessibe.comto learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.

Michael Hingson 01:21Well, hello, once again. I'm Mike Hingson. Your host Welcome to unstoppable mindset. And today we get to interview Michael Coughlin. Who's Michael Coghlan? Well, that's what we're going to find out in the course of the day. But I'm going to start a little bit different Lee than I have in the past. Let me tell you how I met Michael. He wrote me an email a few months ago, and talked about the fact that he read my book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man's guide dog in the triumphant trust. And we had discussions about that Michael happens to be a person who was blind. And he talked about his engineering background and other such things. And me being a person with a physics background and also in sales, but also doing a lot of engineering and tech stuff. It just seemed like the thing to do was to have Michael come on to the podcast. So we can find out all the scandalous and non scandalous things that we want to know about him. And just give us a chance to dialogue. And I thought it'd be kind of fun if all of you get to hear it. And that's how we, we discovered each other, we finally were able to get a time where we could get together and chat. So here we are. And Michael, welcome to unstoppable mindset.

Michael Coughlin 02:34Thank you. I'm glad to be here.

Michael Hingson 02:37Well, we'll really appreciate you being here. Why don't we start by you may be talking about the the younger early, Michael and tell us a little bit about you. And we'll go from there. Sure.

Michael Coughlin 02:48And as you said, I had emailed you because of reading the book, which was powerful. There were in addition to my low vision blindness, were a few other parallels that caught my eye and maybe we'll cover those as we go through this feel free start. I was born in Fort Wayne, Indiana, another midwesterner and I was born on a farm, as was my brother. My mother and father were New Yorkers at birth, and in their early years, they moved to Indiana, because my father was an engineer working for General Electric, and he was transferred to Fort Wayne. When they arrived in Fort Wayne, they decided to look at the Midwest, there's different sets of eyes and they rented a farmhouse on a 40 acre farm. And my father even became a hunter and raised a large garden and it was something pretty adventurous for a New York kid. But they were loving it. And I grew up for the first five years of my life on that farm, exposed a farm animals farm equipment. And I think at that time, I had been wanting to be a farmer. But quickly, they moved me into the city because of the school system. My mother had been a was a school teacher by trade and that taught in a rural schools and they felt the city schools would just be stronger. So at five years old, we moved in to Fort Wayne, and I started school at St. John the Baptist Catholic school and began my early years. In second grade. When they were doing I skipped screening for students. They immediately picked up on the fact that I couldn't see very well. And it was a bit of a shock to everybody I was getting by okay, but my parents were told that I had high problems and they immediately contacted a friend who was not the mala just to look at me, sent me to quote the best ophthalmologist in the city and I started going to him, he examined me and examined me and sent me to the University of Indiana Medical Center. And they all pretty quickly decided that I had macular degeneration. As a juvenile, um, it's very unusual in those days to come up with juvenile macular degeneration.

Michael Hingson 05:21So What year was this? This would

Michael Coughlin 05:24have been about 1953 or 54. Yeah. So, I mean, I was in second grade. And I was obviously starting to have visual difficulties. One of the things I didn't do very well was read aloud, because I was having trouble seeing the print even though I held it close I, I just never could read things out loud. But the school accommodated that well enough. They sat me in front of the class, when the work was going around, and each kid was asked to read a paragraph, they just skipped me. However, I was able to hold things close, read silently, figure out what was on the page, do my homework, pass my tests, and get reasonably good grades, I was probably an average to a little better than average student. So as I progressed, through grammar school, I was just given a little leeway on reading out loud, and everything else seemed to work fine. So they said average student, but if I had something to brag about in those years, it was my Boy Scout work. We had a wonderful Troop at my school. And in the years that I was a boy scout, I earned the rank of Eagle Scout with a bronze POM. I was awarded all three steps in the Order of the Arrow. And by eighth grade, was the senior patrol leader for our troop. Though I had managed through scouting, to excel in something, and then I moved on to high school. At this point, of course, I'd gone through all through grammar school, I'd been seeing ophthalmologists, I knew I had macular degeneration. But I had not been given one piece of information regarding assistive technology, such as talking books, large print, learning Braille, or anything else. I can only attribute that to the fact that I kind of saw things. I didn't run into anything, because I did have a low vision, but I could see. And so they just treated me like everybody else. And just acted like everybody else as best I could. When I got in high school. And I went yeah, go ahead. No, go ahead. Alright, went to Bishop lures High School, called institutional Catholic High School where the boys were sort of separated from the girls in most classes, because that's what was done in those days. I really got it, my grades markedly improved. I made high honors or honors at every grade point, every grade session all the way through high school. I was elected president of the Junior National Honor Society and the senior national honor society. I was in senior play with the lead one of the lead roles. I was on a yearbook staff. I just participated in everything I could, and the only thing I could not do was drive. And I had a lot of friends. And back then, at 16, not only could you drive, you could drive with a friend. So I was always able to get rides, and I just went right through high school. Still not using anything in the way of assistive technology, assistive technology. But I prospered. And at the end of my senior year, I was awarded the Catholic, the Catholic Leadership Award for the state of Indiana by the Knights of Columbus. And I decided that it was time to think about college. So there I was, and I was starting to fill that application. And so I took the graduate or the SATs test, it took another test in engineering aptitude. I scored reasonably well on the LSAT, again, with no help, no large print, no extra time holding it close. But I got through it did pretty well on that engineering aptitude test applied to four colleges in the Midwest and were accepted to all of them. I think a lot because my high school teachers liked me and gave me good recommendations. Anyway I have the four selected the University of Notre Dame, which was a good school, good Catholic school, had electrical engineering, which was where I had applied to get in and was ready to head off to college. My senior year at the end of my senior year, in high school, my parents, I was an exchange student in France, where I went there for seven weeks and lived to the French family. The correspondent, French student, Francis came back in the US for seven weeks. And right in the middle of that, my father took a job in Philadelphia, and we moved to Philadelphia. So I was transplanted into the east coast into a big city, and had a whole nother set of experiences that were great. I enjoyed it, I explored that city for the four years I was in college, even though I went back to Notre Dame, went to the Jersey Shore and saw what that was about. And went off to college, where they put me on an airplane in Philadelphia, I flew out and began my career at Notre Dame in electrical engineering, again, doing everything everybody else did, I didn't go out of my way to tell people that I couldn't see very well, I just played the role of a student. And for four years, managed to get by with pretty good grades, I had a 3.5 GPA at the end of my four years. And I had a degree in electrical engineering, and was ready to move on again to the next stage in life when the space program collapsed, and engineering jobs virtually disappeared. And so I said, Well, maybe grad school would be something one might think about for a little while longer. And I started looking into MBA programs, which I don't know we're getting popular. But my one of my engineering advisors suggests that I might want to stay in engineering because he thought I was a good engineer. I had done well in all my classes, all my labs, working with computers. So I thought about it. And somebody mentioned that there was a kind of a new field opening up called Ocean Engineering. And at the University of Miami had a program. While at the time my brother is a sophomore at Miami. And it seemed like wow, wouldn't it be kind of interesting to put out there and maybe room with my brother and, and whatever. And so I applied in ocean engineering, as well as a few MBA programs. I was accepted to Miami, they gave me money to go to school, paid my tuition gave me a stipend. And so I went, I went off to the University of Miami for a to attain that graduate degree, which I did in two years. In the middle of those two years, married my first wife, Judy, we moved she moved down to Florida. And there we were, for a couple years earning a graduate degree in ocean engineering. One of the curricula within ocean engineering is underwater acoustics. And that was very interesting to me because it was pretty mathematical. And guy double E's love math. And so I spent my courses in acoustics. And when some job interviews on campus came around, one of the companies looking for people with odd degrees were was electric boat Division of General Dynamics, because noise and submarines go together, or at least the lack of noise. They want you to be quiet. Yeah. So they gave me a job offer. And I took it, and we moved to Connecticut. And the came up here and one of the things I did during that first year, besides getting started with my job was to find an ophthalmologist because since I didn't see very well and I didn't want it to get too much worse. It was probably a good idea. And I found a fella Dr. Kaplan in Mystic and got an appointment and walked in and for the first time in my life had been I was told I was legally blind. I had no idea what that meant. And I was surprised because up until that point, I was getting by. I was enjoying what I was doing. I wasn't failing in anything, and like seem good. But anyway, he gave me a good overview on it. He said yeah, he was pretty disappointed. At the fact that I had been involved in everything to that point and never been told I was legally blind, nor had been told that there was any assistive technologies available to make it easier for me. So wait, you're mistaken. That would have been 1971.

Michael Coughlin 15:19Okay. He did a few things, he registered me with the state of Connecticut. They actually have people in the state that come out and try to help you with things. He, they then sign me up for the Library for the Blind and Physically Handicapped. They stay State Library. And, lo and behold, they provided me with a talking book reader and talking books. For the first time ever, I was able to listen to books. All the ones I wanted, anything I wanted, was there available to me. And it was eye opening at that point. i From that time on, even though the device they had for as a player was pretty bulky. I carried that around everywhere. I went and was always listening to books, in addition,

Michael Hingson 16:11is that records or cassettes? That

Michael Coughlin 16:15at that point, they were both that's and I got records. Okay. They gave me a record player. Mostly those were the periodicals on what were then throwaway discs and, and the cassette, but I had to carry a second briefcase anywhere I went to bring that recorder because it was pretty big beast. Yes,

Michael Hingson 16:36I remember those ranking was a General Electric manufacturing machine might

Michael Coughlin 16:42have been but it was a great believe me went from nothing to that it

Michael Hingson 16:46was large, but still Yeah.

Michael Coughlin 16:50In addition, through Kaplan, I met another low vision specialist. And what he showed me was a closed circuit TV magnifier. And at that time, that beast was bigger than the tape recorder, believe me, oh, yes, full size, black and white television with a separate camera. But all of a sudden, I could see things I couldn't see because there were magnified. And so instantly, on arrival in Connecticut or close to it. I had two pieces of technology that just opened up the world. And it allowed me through that CCTV to get a second master's degree in systems management from University of Southern California. They ran that program on military bases. And they gave it I went to the submarine base in Groton and took that for two years and earned a master's second master's, I had access to closed circuit television for that I had my library books on or talking books on tape, and I was pretty happy in my career at General Dynamics was going well. I went, I went from an engineer, through senior to specialist and was an engineering supervisor in about seven years. And anyway, so we were good, but my boss at the time was struggling a bit with his advancement in life. And we had been doing a lot of work underwater acoustics on submarines with with a consulting firm that worked for the Navy called Bolt Beranek and Newman while the BBN was a diverse company, because not only were they the leading acoustics company in the world, but they also had some people that were working on something through DARPA called the ARPANET. So here we go, he gets an offer to start a local, then in New London, which is across the river from Groton, a local office of BBN recruits myself and a couple of other engineers and I am now a consultant working for the Navy Department. At that point in time, BBN was extremely interested in helping me out. So they provided me with a closed circuit was actually a portable closed circuit TV magnifier as well as the desktop version. And a few years later, I Xerox kurz wild text to speech reader. So now I had a little more technology that I could use to get printed books into text format, or speech format. And soon thereafter, one of my good friends who I still play golf with Doug Hannah, came across the fact that a Macintosh computer could magnify the screen and had text to speech. And that was from the all Most of the beginning of the Mac, those features were built into their operating system. Did

Michael Hingson 20:06you ever get to spend much time up at BBN in Cambridge?

Michael Coughlin 20:10Oh, yes. Lots of time at BBN in Cambridge.

Michael Hingson 20:14Did you ever get to meet a guy up there named Dick Durbin sign?

Michael Coughlin 20:19No, but I'll bet he was in a speech synthesis group.

Michael Hingson 20:24I don't know that. He was there. He, he and I went to UC Irvine together. And I actually saw him. I actually saw him at BBN later, and we worked on some projects together, but I suppose there's a large place. So it

Michael Coughlin 20:41was it was large and, and for the most part, my work was done with the acoustic side of things. Although as the internet grew, the computer side of BBN, when I started was about 5050 grew huge and dominated the company and, and all. I mean, they were very early adopters in, in speech recognition, right? They had a voice recognition or a voice sort of dialer feature in their phones from years before they were they were very much into that sort of thing. I

Michael Hingson 21:20remember once when I visited BBN, he Dick told me about a transducer they had that actually would simulate the sound of a jet engine. I believe that yes, he said it was like the size of an ashtray that like the typical floor ashtray in a hotel but he said you didn't want to be anywhere near it when they fired it up because it really was just like a jet engine and it had all the the audio capabilities and all the features. So it really sounded like a jet engine. So you didn't want to be anywhere near Munich fire to an

Michael Coughlin 21:57an aircraft acoustics was a huge part of the work that was done there. And air airport acoustics and they were just in a lot of acoustics but our little group was in submarine acoustics and, and kept us busy. Working at BBN was great in that they were a Mac House, everybody used maps. They put a Macintosh on my desk. It had the ability to magnify what I wanted to see and do text to speech. Even though it's a bit cumbersome, in that you had to copy things paste and whatever. But But I got good at that. I was able to use that computer to do word I could do Excel spreadsheets. I could do graph view graphs. I could do program planning, you name it. All of a sudden the world of the PC was opened to me, thanks to the Mac. And my career at BBN span 20 years. It was it was a great place. They were very early adopters in a lot of technology exposed to a lot of it early emails. They were one of the first companies to to use email. In fact, the fella that put the at sign in email name worked at BBN Ray Tomlinson, so that that was the place but after 20 years, because they were a true consulting firm and fairly expensive rates. And the government was competing on a cost basis. And so eventually I was in a situation where I was looking for a job. And friend of mine at BBN suggested a fella he knew at Boeing might want to buy mica job. And that led to a situation where they their group who was doing work and underwater vehicles, were located on the west coast, wanted somebody on the East Coast who did similar work. And so I was hired as a tech rep, where I would represent the group on the west coast, but I would interact with their Prime customers on the East Coast, one of whom was General Dynamics electric boat, and so my location in Groton was, was great. So what I thought would be about a four three or four year experiment with Boeing ended up as a 20 plus year career with Boeing. And I, they too, were a great employer. They provided me with up to date, closed circuit TVs, they made sure that I my laptop had the best software it turned out by that time. In the PC world. There were software there were things like Jaws and zoom texts. And so I they had Zoom Text on my machine. I was stopped into the internet anywhere I went. And I had closed circuit TVs, both at their facility in California and at my house. And by that time, you could put the library of the blind cassettes into Walkman size machines. So it was easy to carry that along on my travels. And for what was what 20 plus years I had a great career with them as as a tech rep. I was no longer now you had mentioned sales. My father and brother are sales people he was a sales engineer, my brother was a salesman and so is light all his career. My case not so much being in Myers Brigg ISTJ, which stands for introvert a bit. Sales was always a pressure job to me. And as a manager, by that time at BBN have have managed managed the Department of 40 engineers and scientists, the whole job was get more work sales. That was a pressure position for me, when I switched to BBN and I was nothing but a an engineer in the field with no sales pressure and work at all times. I loved it just lower pay less pressure, but I prospered. i I'm sure I was a huge help to them. Because every year my contract or the thought of me coming on for another year came up. Different supervisors wanted me and I just stayed in I was there for over 20 years. And it was it was kind of career where I was traveling a lot. And I enjoyed traveling. And I could get by in airports with little monoculars and asking questions and remembering the Airport layout. So I didn't get lost. And I just got by. Great. And as that careers continued through 20 plus years, and I was getting older, the subject of retirement began to crop in. I talked to my supervisor, you know, I'm at an age where retirement is something I might want to think about. Nope, nope. Well, I went from five day weeks to 40 weeks to three day weeks always saying I want to get out now. And finally they said, Well, if you can find a replacement, then we'll talk about it. So I was fortunate and able to find somebody I thought was good at it as today. And so then they put me on as a consultant for another year and a half on Tuesday weeks. And finally I was able to retire. What year was that? He retired? Yes. And that's where I am today.

Michael Hingson 27:42But what year did you retire?

Michael Coughlin 27:45

1. Okay. During my time at Boeing, which I thought the career itself was fantastic. There were some times good and bad. I, my, my daughter and her husband gave us two grandchildren, Chloe and Evan. However, after many, many years, my first wife Judy succumbed to cancer. And that was tough. And when you are seeing some of that now, I'm sure, but in any case, after that, there's some low points and whatever I met Karen, my current wife, we, we went out for a few years and eventually we're married and, and everything has just turned back around the way it was. I'm happy. I'm retired. Her daughter has given us a grandchild ESMI who's now two and a half, almost three. And we are enjoying life.

Michael Hingson 28:42So how long have you guys been married?

Michael Coughlin 28:45This will be it was just 10 years we were we were married in 2012. Newlyweds?

Michael Hingson 28:50Almost. Yeah. Well, I'm curious. What. So you, you clearly had a rich life you'd have the life that you enjoyed. But what do you think about the fact that early on? They did not that that no one the ophthalmologists and others didn't give you any access to assistive technology didn't give you more access to understanding about blindness and so on. And I don't ask that to say what a horrible thing but rather just what do you think about it? Now looking back on hindsight is always a wonderful thing. Looking back,

Michael Coughlin 29:34I almost angry. At the time, I thought everything was fine. But when you look back, I believe. Number one, I think a lot of eye doctors are great if they can help you but if they can't help you, they tend to push you off to the side. And I think that was a little of it. And it maybe was just the fact that in the URL The days even though I had macular and I couldn't see printed and everything I saw well enough to get by. And I'm just thinking they figured, well, he's doing okay, whatever they should have done way more. And maybe even my parents should have done more. But But I don't I even looking back feel that in some sense the fact that I had to hold things up here to read was almost embarrassing to them, they they didn't grasp the concept of a young person not saying well, it just didn't grasp it. And unfortunately, since we were in the middle of Indiana, and there really weren't Apparently, people with very much knowledge of the subject. It just happened. And I just hope today, that way more attention is paid to people, the few juveniles that are limited sight, because I'm sure I could have had a fuller experience in life, if I at least had been exposed to talking books at a younger age.

Michael Hingson 31:14Here are a lot of us who believe that it is so unfortunate that more of us also did not get the opportunity to learn braille, because right is outcomes, the basic means of reading and writing.

Michael Coughlin 31:30I understand I agree completely. And so here I am having to sit here with my closed circuit TV, off to the right with about 40 power magnification in order to be able to see my notes, hey, I have a fellow in our, at the center of the blind Kevin, who is a braille reader and, and he's totally blind, but he has the Braille and he can sit at a meeting and read what he needs by reading it in Braille, when I'm at those meetings, I can't read anything. You can't, I cannot see any print, I just always have to rely on what I hear or ask questions.

Michael Hingson 32:13So you're seeing reality, the advantage that we had was being blind people than if we do read braille, and so on, for not the advantages that we can look at meetings from a different perspective, which I love to talk about which, namely, is, if people are doing meetings truly the right way, they would provide everyone the information in advance of the meeting, so that people could read this stuff with the idea, then you can prepare and then you go to the meeting, and you can discuss it rather than spending half the meeting reading the information. Yep, well, they

Michael Coughlin 32:50do that fortunately, times. Case of the center, I gather all of the information they're going to pass out as Word documents earlier, and I do go through them.

Michael Hingson 33:02But what I'm saying is they should really do that for everyone, rather than passing out information at the meeting. People should get it in advance so that nobody has to read it at the meeting, rather use the meeting to be more efficient. So that's a lesson we could teach them which, which a lot of people really haven't caught on to yet understood. It does make life a little bit of a challenge. But I'm glad that that your your work at the Center will tell me a little bit about your work at the center and how you got involved in what the center is all about.

Michael Coughlin 33:34Right? Well, it's my second time involved being involved with the center of the Blind in New London. First, the first interaction came about in in probably the late mid mid to late 90s, when we had a macular degeneration support group in Waterford, that that was started by a fellow's a friend Duncan Smith since passed. And, and I ended up as president of the group. And it was it was a pretty active group for about 10 years. And we brought people in that had macular and tried to provide him with information. And as part of that the center of the blind was one of the participants and their lead person helped us get speakers and so there's sort of a three to four person group as the lead and and that center lead person was one of those. I can tell you what her name was, but I forgotten it is too many years ago. So when I retired and I'm trying to think of giving back and doing things that what what can I do also I should have mentioned that not only they work with a senator I also at one point in time was a reader On the advisory group for the State Library for the Blind and Physically Handicapped, where I'd attend meetings and from a reader point of view, try to help them with their services. And I was on the board of directors for Chris radio, which is a radio service that reads newspapers and periodicals to people. So I've done a few of those kinds of things as well. But now I'm retired, I say, I want to be able to give back to some degree and, and so I thought of the Senator and gave them a call. They looked up their webpage, and there's a phone number I gave a call, talk to the Executive Director, Wendy Lusk. And she said, we'd love to have you come down and talk so. So I did, Karen and I went down. And we sat and talked to Wendy and, and Tammy, the assistant and said, well, might I be able to do. And after a little discussion, the concept of a support group for macular degeneration came up. And they didn't have such a thing. And they thought that would be a worthwhile project that they should put into their calendar. And that's what we've done. So I, every first Wednesday of the month, get together with others who are interested in. And the primary focus is learning how to use cell phones, because the new cell phones or smartphones and iPhones and also that others are pretty hard for people who are beginning to lose their sight. And they don't have an understanding of some of the assistive aids that are in the phone. So that's what we do. We spend a couple hours just answering questions and presenting information that I pick up over the web on things their smartphone can do for them. And as as that went and started gaining traction, Wendy asked me if I wanted to be on the board. And I said I'd be glad to do that and was elected to the board a couple of months back. So I'm on the board of directors as well as running that support group.

Michael Hingson 37:17Do you think that let's deal with the pathological world? Do you think that attitudes have changed very much in terms of how I doctors handled blindness and blind people today over, say 40 years ago?

Michael Coughlin 37:35Well, a little better. I mean, I have a fella now Dr. Parker I've been seeing for when, when Kaplan sold his practice, Dr. Parker took it over, I go to see him. He, he tries to keep me appraised of any new emerging things in the way of AI specialists, and what they may be doing for people with low vision. But, but they're more on the scientific side, and he really doesn't have any, any of the low vision aids, you have to go to a separate guy for that. And I've gone through those things so many times. That? I don't know, right? I would say better, but not great. Yeah,

Michael Hingson 38:29what, what I have found and having significant conversations with people is that still all too often, if you go to an ophthalmologist, and it's discovered that for whatever reason, you're losing eyesight, and they can't do anything about it. They consider it a failure. And they just walk out sorry, there's nothing we can do and that we haven't seen enough of an awareness raising in the eye care world, where people recognize that just because you can't see it's not the end of the world and you can still be just as productive as you otherwise might have been accepted when you use different techniques. And, and a lot of state rehabilitation agencies are somewhat in the same sort of boat, they don't really ultimately do the things that they could do to better prepare people for having a positive attitude about blindness when they're losing their son.

Michael Coughlin 39:31Yeah, I think that's true, although Connecticut, their agency is called WSB. The Bureau for the education of the blind and and they're pretty good. I just actually had a SB fella come to my house to give me a how do you use a cane training? I've never used a cane. And it's part part of our macular sport group. Discussion. One of the fellas in They're mentioned the, what he called his ID cane. And that was a term I'd never heard him. And what do you mean by that? And he said, Well, he said, because he has macular like me, said, I still see well enough to get around. But I'm tired of explaining to people they don't see very well. And so I got an I A cane, white cane, which you're legally able to use. And he said, the one I have is a little shorter, because I don't really need it as two more people with less vision. And it helps people understand that I don't see very well

Michael Hingson 40:37in the answers. And the answer is even with an ID cane, that works until it doesn't. I know, I know, a guy who lived in I think it was Mount Laurel, New Jersey, and will take the train to Philadelphia every day, when he was losing his eyesight and the New Jersey Commission gave him a cane. But they also continued to emphasize eyesight a lot. And they didn't really convey to him the true importance of learning to use a cane as he's losing his eyesight. So one day, he was walking along the side of the New Jersey Transit train to go into the car to find a seat and involved process to Philadelphia. And key he turned in where the where he saw the openings for the car, and promptly fell between two cars. And then the train started to move and they got stopped and got him out. If he had been using his cane that would never have happened. And he became an avid cane user after that. Right.

Michael Coughlin 41:48Great. And I completely understand that. And and I'm using it more and more. No doubt.

Michael Hingson 41:56Yeah, there's and the problem is that people just all too often think it's a horrible thing and makes you look weird. Well, you know, there are a lot of things that all sorts of people use that make them look different than other people, that doesn't mean that they're less people.

Michael Coughlin 42:12I actually had an experience a while back, which made the use of the cane even more, it highlighted it a little more is a number we were going back and forth to the Caribbean for a few years at on vacation at the Sandals Resort, and we got to the airport in Antigua getting ready to fly home. And since I don't see very well, I always will go up to the attendant at the ticket counter and say, you know, I'm visually disabled, can't see I really need early boarding we could cause legs, feet and other things trip me and I I'd like to get into a seat before the crowd arrives. And the first thing she did is looked at me and said, You're not blind, you know. And, and I was stunned. But but said yes, I am I cannot see. And they let me show. All right. All right. So after that in airports, I started at least wearing dark glasses. That helped a little bit with a cane. It's even at least then you have a claim to your claim, having to pull out the piece of paper from the state that says I'm legally blind. I have one of those, but that's kind of going a little too far. So I do find it a little bit more helpful.

Michael Hingson 43:39Well, of course, what you discovered, the more you use a cane is the better traveler you are. And that helps you get around. Yes. Now as you know, I happen to use a guide dog. In fact, I didn't use either a cane or a guide. Well Mark cane or guide until I was 14 when I got the guideline. I never learned to use a cane until I was 18. But I discovered that I could teach anyone to use a cane in five minutes, but teaching people to have the competence to use a cane takes months because one is just a technique which you can learn easily the other is developing an attitude and developing the true awareness of that you know where you are and what's around you and how to recover from getting lost and and other such things like that along the way. That's a whole different animal entirely. Absolutely. But nevertheless, it's it's doable. So I still mostly use guide dog but there are some times that I'll leave the puppy dog at home or if I'm just stepping out a little bit leave the dog tied down and I'll use a cane but that doesn't happen very often. And certainly when I travel Alamo who is not a current guide dog comes with ready to go so We just returned from a weekend Israel doing work and all that, and he needed fine. And even on the long airplane flight to and from Israel, He did really well. Excellent. You know, it's, it is a matter of learning to use the skills that that we have. That

Michael Coughlin 45:19is That is true. And in my case technology has been my savior. Sure, closer to TVs, the books on tape, and the fact that computers now have text to speech and magnification. Without it without those. I would not have had an engineering career I don't believe. So

Michael Hingson 45:44what do you use to read books today?

Michael Coughlin 45:48I do. I use my iPad. I have the bard application, which is the current app that's put out by the library. handicapper, I think they changed their name recently, but it's the same thing. And so I download books through them, and use the iPad, to read the books to me, I don't have to use a recorder anymore. It's and I can do the same thing on my iPhone. So.

Michael Hingson 46:23So now of course, you have the ability to navigate through those books a whole lot more than you used to.

Michael Coughlin 46:28Yes, because the again, I'm an apple person, but on my iPad, I can magnify the screen very easily. So downloading books is a little cumbersome, but not bad. And then I can pick whatever book I want to listen to and with Bluetooth headphones, or what I air pods or whatever they call them and listen to those without bothering anybody else.

Michael Hingson 46:53Yeah. And again, the other neat thing is that you can skip around in a book, which is something that you couldn't do before, right now with the advantage of the DAISY format and so on you can which is a format, which is kind of an ePub environment. But you can literally skip around the book by chapter or any number of levels. Yep.

Michael Coughlin 47:15And, and not only do I use that app, but I also have downloaded books on audible. Occasionally, if I can't find where I wanted, or, or iBooks it's now called something else. But and so some of the books he can't get it the library right away, you can you can go on and pay for him. And but mostly, it's through the the Library for the Blind. Certainly, that's where I found the underdog. So

Michael Hingson 47:45what do you think overall has been the biggest obstacle you've had to overcome?

Michael Coughlin 47:49If you go back and look, to me, the biggest obstacle was the invent the advent of the PC, and getting to use a PC. When, when I was moving along in my career, and early on, I did a lot of software engineering. But I was back in the earliest days, it was key punches. And all of that I got by then as they started using terminals, but simple terminals, I could have the software printed out, I could use the CCTV to see it, I could make changes to the software and have others enter it. It was everything was slow back then. But when the PC came along, it became an individual tool that everybody used, you had to be able to use it and and as I said it was Doug, Hannah and my good golfing buddy now who, who figured out how to use that with text to speech and magnification. And that just opened up the whole world of the personal computer, which which is today I mean MATLAB and other pieces of software you have to use. It made it available to me, had I not been able to make that jump into the PC world, I think I would have really been hampered on my ability to continue as an engineer or an engineering manager.

Michael Hingson 49:20So you're not too bothered by the fact that there was a time that Bill Gates said that 640 K is all you'd ever need. And we have Emory.

Michael Coughlin 49:29Well, you know, I remember using before Yeah. And I remember when the very first Mac's came out, they only had two floppy drives and no hard drives. So I had

Michael Hingson 49:45a my first computer that I really use it all was Xerox sigma seven. We also had an OS born from my wife even before that, but it had the Xerox had two eight inch floppies no hard drive 64k and What was it? Yeah, you know, but amazing. I

Michael Coughlin 50:03mean, the technology has just moved so fast. And, and the fast moving technology is great. And it's frustrating. Because a lot of the people that develop it's because now they can write software that does everything. The concept and of course you work for a company that that's very attuned to that fact, is that much of the stuff they throw out there now is very hard to use. If you're visually disabled,

Michael Hingson 50:34you'd have visual issues there. The awareness has not grown like it needs to to make sure that all that stuff is inclusive. Absolutely.

Michael Coughlin 50:42And it as fast as the technology is moving it. The accessibility features of software, to me are falling further and further behind. Even though there's more and more people that seemed to work in the field of accessibility. I think they're still not moving fast enough. And it is frustrating I had, I mentioned that one of the other obstacles that are countered, over the years when I was working at Boeing. Computer Training was becoming easy. And everybody had to take seven or eight computers, courses through the year and be qualified in things like obstacle don't leave obstacles and jet engines in called FOD and foreign object detection and on and on. And, and those courses were originally written by the various divisions and by people who got told make a course. And so they might dig up a course making pieces of software, whatever. And when they would finish it and put it out to everybody. Many of them wouldn't work with screen readers. And not only Weren't they work with screen readers, and they didn't redo the text, they'd have little tests you had to pass. And those certainly didn't work for the screen reader. And they were very, very frustrating. And I ran across to fellow at Boeing corporate, who became a friend and his father who had macular and he was really sensitive to that fact. And between the two of us we, we fought tooth and nail to get a standard a corporate standard on for courses put in place that included the fact that you had to be able to access the course with a screen reader took about five years for for that standard to finally be propagated throughout Boeing. And even when they did, I ran across the fire protection course where it wasn't in place. And I couldn't do that test and this. So you have to fight for that stuff. There's no doubt about it.

Michael Hingson 52:55There are times that you do things to draw the line and say, look, you've got to make this inclusive.

Michael Coughlin 53:01Great. Absolutely. It's getting better. I mean, I mean, at least if you stand up and squawk about it, there are people who will listen more than they used to.

Michael Hingson 53:13Yeah, well and I think we're slowly raising awareness and it's a it's a challenge. consumer organizations are helping and we're we're we're now getting people to recognize it more much less that it really is part of the law the Americans with Disabilities Act really is more comprehensive than people want it sometimes to get credit for. And sometimes we have sites where it is still happening.

Michael Coughlin 53:40Oh yeah. And and sometimes it just happens when you don't think about it we had when I was at the Boeing facility in California and they had been California it's always beautiful as you know. And and so stairways for buildings are often outside and inside stairways and we had a nice building and an out big, big wide outside stairway and they came in and put in new a new surface on the top step of the third floor landing so you wouldn't slip and a just as they did it, they covered up that yellow stripe that marked the top step and that next day I almost stepped right off into an clobbered down a flight of stairs, got my supervisor and said hey, help me an appointment and we she took me right over to the safety people within this was in Huntington Beach and today a day later they had a yellow stripe on the top

Michael Hingson 54:40of that step car alternative that is which you didn't really have access to at the time was 30 Days came back. Which is another story of course I agree. But at

Michael Coughlin 54:51that time, I was not. Right. Right. Look for yellow stripes, because I could see that much But anyhow.

Michael Hingson 55:02So what what do you do for extra curricular activities in such out of work like sports and so on? Yeah,

Michael Coughlin 55:09I, I love sports. When I was younger, I could play other few others like I never could be a baseball player with a little ball moving real fast, or a tennis player. But But I did like to play football because I was big enough to be a blocker and part of that team. And I played basketball, because basketball is pretty big. I played that least through college but but I was very fortunate in that my father, as an engineer had a medium kind of income and belonged to we belong to a country club in Fort Wayne. And the golf pro, there was a big advocate of teaching young kids how to play golf. So I started learning golf when I was about eight years old, and have always played golf. It got harder when I couldn't see the golf ball very well. I became eventually became a member of the US blind Golfers Association. I still am a member, they have a well, it was at the time a DVD. Now I think it's an online thing. It's a course for coaches of blind golfers. And they adopted the term coach, but I don't know helper to whatever the sighted person is about the blind golfer. And I show my friends that and, and pretty quickly, they figured out well, let's see, we've got to help him line the ball up in the middle of his clubface and point out where the hole is. And, and then there's these new range finders, the one I have talked. And so I push a button, it says your 180 yards. And so between a friend Nirn learning how to be a coach, and that I'm still an avid golfer, I play that a couple times a week. And if I have a good round, and I play from the senior tees, because I'm definitely senior, I still can once in a while break at which is a very, I think a very good score. And then I love to swim. And we had a swim team at that club and I from about age eight to 15 or something I was into competitive swimming. And now we have a pool and I swim every day in the summer. So

Michael Hingson 57:23So is is Karen a golfer?

Michael Coughlin 57:27No. It was the last week. We thought about that once but it didn't go over too.

Michael Hingson 57:33Well. You try Yeah. Now you have,

Michael Coughlin 57:36of course also love sports on television where I have a big TV and sit close my my passion of course is Notre Dame football. And for the people that see a video, the back screen of my my video is a picture I took of the Notre Dame Stadium football field when I was back at my 50th college reunion.

Michael Hingson 58:01So Oh, go ahead.

Michael Coughlin 58:04Well, I was gonna say they improve the stadium immensely since I was there. And there's a big area up at the top where you they have banquets and and you entertain and and so our class that was where we had our 50th anniversary dinner. And so he couldn't be looking over the stadium and I took a picture and put it in my Zoom background. So so they

Michael Hingson 58:28still talk to you. They still talk to you even though you've got some advanced degree work from USC, and Miami and Miami, USC even more than Miami. But yeah,

Michael Coughlin 58:40well there was a time Miami and Notre Dame went like that. Now it's not but USC Of course. And I tell people that but I I have never had bad vibes over the fact I have advanced degrees from

Michael Hingson 58:55C See, I love to tell the story that when my wife and I got married, the church didn't fill up until 12 minutes after the wedding was supposed to start, I suppose started for and and for 12 crowds came in and Only later did we learned that everyone was still sitting out in your pliers waiting for the end of the USC Notre Dame game. Of course. Again, I want to point out that my wife, of course, is an SE grad she did her master's work there. And of course I have to point out that we won, which proves that God was really on our side that day. Just say sometimes,

Michael Coughlin 59:30you know the story of one of the Notre Dame Miami games where they had the great dinner or breakfast before the game and and when they the University of Miami Chaplain got up and said that well, you all know that God is not doesn't take sides in football. And so we'll both pray and see who the better team wins and Lou Holtz, then the coach Scott up and said, Yeah, you're completely right. God is not involved. But his mother is.

Michael Hingson 1:00:08Good answer. Yeah, only Luke could do that. That's the neat thing about good college football rivalries. Absolutely. Always find that. That's

Michael Coughlin 1:00:19kind of my sports, fat, passion for, for television, and then golf and swimming or my dad,

Michael Hingson 1:00:26I grew up listening to the Dodgers. And of course, we're spoiled. We have been Skelly who I still know them. Yes, yes. The best announcer that ever is when was and probably will be in. So I learned baseball from him. There's a lot of fun listening to him. And

Michael Coughlin 1:00:43posters where Claire and I are now. I've been converted. She's from Boston. So we're Red Sox fans. So this weekend, they're playing each other. Well,

Michael Hingson 1:00:53and then in days gone by in basketball. We had Chick Hearn, and of course, Boston had Johnny most.

Michael Coughlin 1:00:59Oh, yes. Oh, yes.

Michael Hingson 1:01:03Johnny is, Johnny was certainly a character. Well, I want to thank you for taking the time to do this today. It was was fun to do. I'm glad that we got a chance to really chat and do all of this. It was a sort of, when I invited you and said we got to do this, you know, I really appreciate you doing it. But it was was fun to take that that leap and and make it happen. So I'm really grateful that you are able to come and now that you're retired, that you can just do the things that you want to do and continue to grow and continue to support people who are blind getting more of the services they need.

Michael Coughlin 1:01:43Yep, I fully intend to do that.

Michael Hingson 1:01:47Well, I want to express my appreciation. And for those of you listening, love to hear what you think about our podcast episode today. Please feel free to email me Michaelhi at accessibe A c c e s s i b e.com Or go to our podcast page www dot Michael Hingson H i n g s o n.com/podcast. And we'd love to hear your thoughts. I would definitely appreciate a five star rating from you wherever you're listening to the podcast. And you know, Michael, is there a way that people can contact you if they want to talk with you more and just get more of your insights?

1:02:25Or they could email me my email is start. So my initials are for Michael Joseph MJ. And then part of my last name, so it's mjcoughl@aol.com.

Michael Coughlin 1:02:37And AOL users still Still,

Michael Coughlin 1:02:38I I have to use Gmail when AOL fails me, but But I hang on to that AOL because it goes back a long way.

Michael Hingson 1:02:57So do the email address one more time? Am

Michael Coughlin 1:03:03mjcoughl@aol.com?

Michael Hingson 1:03:10Well, Michael Coughlin, I really appreciate your time. And this was fun. And we have so many similarities, we're roughly the same age and we've been through a lot of the same experiences. So it's a lot of fun to to be able to reminisce like this and give people I think, some insights as to why things were and how we're progressing. So I just want to thank you one more time for being here and we'll have to try to do it again in the future.

Michael Coughlin 1:03:38Enjoy it and hopefully we can try to stay in touch.

Michael Hingson 1:03:45You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visitwww.accessibe.com. AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

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And what, may you ask, is “polarity intelligence”? That is one of the topics we get to discuss this episode with the co-founders of the company, Missing Logic, Dr. Tracy Christopherson and Michelle Troseth. Their company was formed to help leaders overcome leadership norms that cause suffering and take them out of good work-life balance.

Tracy and Michelle come from healthcare backgrounds. Even though they formed their company only in 2017 they have been using the tools they develop more than 20 years ago to train leaders to better understand and balance polarities. The most common example of a polarity we all experience is inhaling and exhaling. You need to do both to survive.

As Tracy and Michelle explain, there are many polarities leaders in business face. The more leaders understand how to manage the various polarities in their environment the better their own lives and the lives of those around them will be. The balance between work and non-work is a polarity faced often by leaders especially throughout the business world. Recognizing this polarity and learning to adjust to accommodate both sides of it can greatly improve any leader's outlook and it will greatly reduce stress.

Our discussion this time ranges far and wide concerning the concepts of leadership and how people can become better leaders by understanding and using polarity intelligence. I leave it to Michelle and Tracy to explain all of this to us. All I can say is that I found this discussion extremely thought provoking and relevant to our world today. I hope you feel the same.

About the Guest:

Dr. Tracy Christopherson and Michelle Troseth are co-founders of MissingLogic®. The core of their work is to help leaders to overcome leadership norms that cause suffering, achieve work life balance, create healthy work cultures and environments by leveraging Polarity Intelligence™.

Tracy and Michelle are co-authors of the book Polarity Intelligence: The Missing Logic in Leadership and co-hosts of The TRU Leader Podcast (previously known as Healthcare’s MissingLogic Podcast). The dynamic duo is known for helping leaders balance leading and living so they can be TRU leaders—thriving, resilient, and unstoppable.Tracy and Michelle are the creators of the Dynamic Balance Effect® Framework. They use this framework to support leaders in leveraging Polarity Intelligence to create a dynamic balance between their professional and personal lives. Tracy and Michelle frequently speak at national and international leadership conferences on the topics of Polarity Intelligence, Work–Life Balance, and Healthy Work Environments.

Ways to connect with Dr. Tracy and Michelle:

COMPANY WEBSITE LINK:https://www.missinglogic.com/SOCIAL MEDIA LINKS:https://www.linkedin.com/company/missinglogic-llchttps://www.facebook.com/missinglogicLLChttps://twitter.com/MissingLogicLLChttps://www.instagram.com/missinglogic_llc/

https://www.youtube.com/@missinglogic2077

About the Host:Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.

Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children’s Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association’s 2012 Hero Dog Awards.

https://michaelhingson.comhttps://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/https://twitter.com/mhingsonhttps://www.youtube.com/user/mhingsonhttps://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/

accessiBe Linkshttps://accessibe.com/https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBehttps://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/

https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/

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Michael Hingson 00:00Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visitwww.accessibe.comto learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.

Michael Hingson 01:21Welcome to another episode of unstoppable mindset. And today, we get to talk with two people who I've gotten to know a little bit and enjoy very much. We have Michelle Troseth. And Tracy Christopherson, who my screen reader says Christopherson, which I think is kind of funny. And I've really learned the King's English, but what can I or where at least Swedish, but you know, we we cope. But they have, I think an interesting story to tell they are co founders of a company. And I'm sure they're going to tell us about that along with all sorts of other stuff. So we're really glad that you're here listening. And we're glad that Tracy and Michelle are here to talk with us. I want to welcome both of you to unstoppable mindset.

Michelle Troseth 02:10Well, thank you, Michael, thank you so much. We're excited to be here.

Tracy Christopherson 02:14Yes, we are. Well,

Michael Hingson 02:16cool. I'm excited to have you. So that's as good as it gets. And we can all have fun. As always, one of the rules of doing this podcast I tell people is we do have to have fun. So that is important. Well tell me about your lives a little bit growing up sort of early years of Tracy and Michelle are Michelle and Tracy, whichever one of you wants to talk first.

Michelle Troseth 02:38This is Michelle, I'll go first. Oh, there we go. Yes, I'll go first. And we did grow up together and many ways. We were still growing Michael. So our background is is we're both from the state of Michigan. And we started out our careers in health care. And I'm a nurse. And and actually Tracy and I we we met early in our careers, we cared for patients together. And then we became leaders, we went into leadership roles. And we kind of grew up as leaders learned our leadership skills. And we started working with a phenomenal mentor, who was changing practice environments and hospitals. And we joined that journey with her and did a lot of transformation work in hospitals across North America. We ended up in corporations as executives. And then in 2018, after many, many years of doing a lot of hard work. We we decided to start our own company. And so we did that in 2018. But the other thing I want you to know about Tracy and I is we are also very good friends. We're BFFs and our husbands are best friends as well. And we love to travel together and play cards and golf. And so we have a whole playful side twist as well. There

Michael Hingson 03:54you go. Yes, my my mother in law was loved to play cards and we would all play cards with her. We always said she cheats because she always won. I mean, always won. So we like to say that she cheated, but you know, she didn't but it was so much fun.

Tracy Christopherson 04:17We'd like to think she was cheating anyway. Right? Yeah, it's

Michael Hingson 04:20kind of more fun. You know, it's an excuse anyway, to, you know, to to say that. But she she she loved to play Liverpool rummy and just all sorts of things and, and had a lot of fun. And we all did when was fun to play with her. Occasionally. She led us when that's, that's our line anyway. Yeah,

Tracy Christopherson 04:38for sure. Wow, were we like Euchre and it's always the girls against the guys. And so, you know, sometimes we think they're cheating and sometimes they think we are too.

Michael Hingson 04:51I won't tell ya. Okay. Well, Tracy, what do you want to add to you? Oh, yeah,

Tracy Christopherson 04:57yeah, well, I was just gonna say so I'm a respiratory therapists by profession. And, and actually, you know, I had, you know, this experience that Michelle and I had working with healthcare organizations all across the country really was my learning ground for leadership. And, but I'm a learner. And that's one of my strengths. And so I reached a point where, you know, their real life experience just wasn't quite enough. And I wanted to have, I knew I was missing something in my education. So I went back to school to get my bachelor's and then I was egged on to get my masters. And then, lo and behold, I found myself getting a PhD. So I was on like, a 13 year journey, just going back to school to get a degree, but I got multiple ones. And it was really driven by my passion for interprofessional collaboration, really bringing teams together with diverse experiences to work together and, and deliver services. And, and a lot of that was, you know, kind of Michelle and I in the journey together, right, we were doing interprofessional work and healthcare organizations for it was cool. For anybody really knew what it was. And, and we partnered on so many projects together. And so it really, you know, led to my passion to get a PhD in interprofessional health care studies, but we actually met in high end hospital orientation. So it was, you know, kind of the stand up and shake the hand of the person behind you. And that was me, and we like to say we've been shaking hands ever since. And, and you know, in our course of our journey as leaders and working with many leaders across North America, we really saw the challenges that they face, and everybody thinks their challenges are unique, right to us. Yeah, but they're not. And we saw the pattern across multiple leaders, multiple organizations, they were facing the same challenges over and over and over and unable to resolve them. They were unsolvable problems. And we had been had the great fortune to be exposed to polarity thinking, or Barry Johnson, and had leverage that in our work. And so we knew when we left corporate America in 2017, that we were destined to do something really important. And we decided what was really important was to bring this missing logic or this competency to health care leaders and to leaders in general, all across the world. So that's what we're doing now.

Michael Hingson 07:30Wow. So Michelle Tracy was respiratory therapist. What were you?

Michelle Troseth 07:36I was a nurse. Ah,

Michael Hingson 07:40I still am. So you guys met at hospital orientation? So you didn't know each other growing up in school? No,

Tracy Christopherson 07:46no, no, no, we didn't grow up on the same side of the state. I grew up on the east side. She grew up on the west side. So we didn't meet till we were adults, orienting to a new healthcare system.

Michael Hingson 07:59Now, where do you guys live now?

Michelle Troseth 08:02But I live just outside of Grand Rapids, in a community called Hudsonville, Michigan, so still in West Michigan.

Tracy Christopherson 08:10And I live three hours north, and a small resort town called going city near Lake Michigan. And then I'm here in the spring in the summer, early fall, and then I go to California in the winter. I don't like snow. I leave her here and I come to visit though. Why

Michael Hingson 08:30don't you come to California to Yeah, one of these days. So we're in California. We're in California. Do you go?

Tracy Christopherson 08:37I go to Ukiah. Okay. Northern California. Napa. Yeah, right.

Michael Hingson 08:44I lived in Novato for 12 years. And so we loved to go to Napa up into Ukiah but we we love Napa. We were 45 minutes, maybe an hour away from from Napa. went up there and join the Gloria Ferrara wine club, which was great because if you go there as a member, you get for free glasses of I call them champagne. They say sparkling wine because they don't want to tick off the French but you know, say what you want. So I'm still a member even though my wife has passed. The problem is I'm not drinking it as fast as it comes in because I'm just not that much of a wine drinker. So I'm gonna have to find a way to start dealing with that. I may have to call on healthcare this or what saved me if I do too much of that. Yeah. But still, well, so what? So Trey? So Michelle, you didn't say you went to college? Yes, I

Michelle Troseth 09:39did. I got my bachelor's at Grand Valley State University here in West Michigan and my master's in nursing there as well.

Michael Hingson 09:46But you haven't haven't been persuaded to go off and get a PhD to have equal billing or something like that.

Michelle Troseth 09:53No, I was told by my husband and my best friend Tracy. I was not allowed to do that.

Tracy Christopherson 10:00He definitely it.

Michael Hingson 10:03I have a master's degree and I'm fine with that. Yeah.

Michelle Troseth 10:09I have to, I have to. And after watching Tracy and her journey, I'm just, I'm a good cheerleader.

Tracy Christopherson 10:16A whole nother podcast, Michael.

Michael Hingson 10:20There's always student loan debt. Right. So

Tracy Christopherson 10:23I didn't have any of that I just had some challenging a challenging journey. But it was all done for me. Yeah, made me who I am today. I'm grateful for valuable thing.

Michael Hingson 10:33Oh, yeah. And I understand, we all are a product of our choices, which is pretty cool. When you talk about this new competency that you're teaching leaders. And I'll, before I ask you specifically about that, why did you decide specifically to start a company to deal with addressing issues for leaders and so on?

Michelle Troseth 10:55Why Well, we because no one was talking about this really, or maybe just small pockets of people. And we knew what a game changer it was. And we had applied it into our own lives both personally. And we had helped organizations and I can tell you, Tracy and I do a lot of speaking. And whenever we would introduce this polarity concept, or having a polarity mindset to an audience, people always got excited, they would say things like, oh my gosh, this makes so much sense. Or I always knew these things were connected, but I never knew how. And it has such implications because we waste so much time, money and resources trying to fix the same problems, when they're not really problems, they really are polarities. And so we just knew this was something that was very needed. And we knew it starts with the leadership, if the leadership doesn't understand it, the staff don't have a chance and the organization's will never be able to sustain a lot of the hard work they put into fixing problems. So that's, that was our thing. We're like, we're gonna go out there and we're gonna bring this to the world and we named it missing logic, because it's missing.

Michael Hingson 12:06Yeah, I hear you, what do you mean by polarities?

Tracy Christopherson 12:11So polarities are interdependent pairs of values or points of view, or perspectives. And they are, they appear to be contradictory, at or opposing to each other. But they are interdependent, and they need each other over time to reach a greater purpose that neither value would alone. So you know, we have problems, problems, we use either or thinking we get more, you know, a couple different solutions, we pick the one we want to apply, and we're done. But polarities are ongoing, they never ends. And that's why these challenges that leaders were facing, and trying to apply either or thinking to wasn't working, right, because you can't treat a polarity that way, you have to use what we call a both and mindset, because these values are interdependent and need each other. Yeah.

Michael Hingson 13:09Well, you've, you've written a book about, about all of this with polarities, too, haven't you? When did you write that?

Michelle Troseth 13:16During COVID time to do it.

Tracy Christopherson 13:22There, you know, whatever you're gonna do, right? Yeah.

Michelle Troseth 13:24We were locked up. And we said, Okay, this and and the other thing too, Michael, that was really great is we worked with leaders during COVID. We did virtual coaching sessions, virtual mentorship programs. So we were learning a ton. And then we thought, this is the perfect time to write this book. So the name of the book is clarity, intelligence, the missing logic in leadership. And what we're so proud of is we were able to take all the concepts we've been working with having a polarity or both and mindset, the need to have healthy relationships to engage your workforce and your colleagues and your family in a way that you come together with intention and you have a shared purpose with why you are together and meaningful dialogue. And when you're dealing with polarities and a cause tension, it's really important to have the communication skills, the dialogue skills to invite conversation to understand those different perspectives as well. So we put all of those together and call it now polarity intelligence. And it's it's we have the first book coming out with it, so it's pretty exciting.

Michael Hingson 14:33So it's polarity intelligence out.

Michelle Troseth 14:37It is available for pre order right now. So you can go to your favorite bookstore and buy and preorder it's going to be released on January 16 2024. And hot off the press. We just found out today we already hit the best seller list on Barnes and Noble Wow. Get on the bubbles get up

Michael Hingson 15:00I'm gonna go get one of those bottles of champagne here. Yeah. But I don't want to drink in front of you. So that is exciting. Yeah, sorry, that that's happening. Well, so. So tell me, I guess a little bit more about this whole concept of polarity intelligence? And how do you how do you teach it to people? And well, and how is it received? I guess from a book standpoint, it's received well, but in general, when you're dealing with people, how do they how do they receive it or deal with it?

Tracy Christopherson 15:33Well, that's a great question, you know, so let's start with a little bit more about it. So people that so your listeners kind of have some context to what we're talking about. And a really easy way to understand a polarity is inhaling and exhaling. Because that is a polarity our body manages for us all day, every day. And we have to inhale to receive oxygen and exhale to remove carbon dioxide. And the greater purpose of that is to sustain life, and it's the only polarity that's leveraged or managed for us. And our body just takes care of that. And, and so we kind of really start there with helping people to understand what a polarity is in and of itself. And then our overall objective is to help them to understand how polarities work because there's some various principles that they operate on. And as an example, you know, when you have a polarity, you have two poles, they're interdependent, and they need each other. So one is not more important than the other. So inhaling is not more important than exhaling, I have to have both if I want to sustain life, and if I don't have both, I'm going to die, right? That's a negative consequence. The another principle that we teach people is that when you over emphasize one pole and you neglect the other, there's always a negative consequence, you're always going to lose the positive benefits of the pole that you neglect. So there's always a consequence to that. And and then I think the other thing too, is really what we want to do is leverage these healthy relationships and the meaningful dialogue, when we sit in conversation with the if you think about the tensions we've experienced, as people in our countries internationally, you know, people are walking away from conversations because they don't want to engage, right? It's some very high values, people hold dearly, and it can create significant tension. And so to sit in that tension, and to sit in that those contradictory, or opposing perspectives, you really have to have a strong relationship, and you have to know how to have conversation. So we teach them the principles around healthy relationships. And we teach them the principles of dialogue, so that they can really transcend their own personal biases and open up to hear the perspectives of others because both perspectives are right. One is not more right than the other, it's just really understanding how the two work together. So those are a few ways that we kind of set some context for them, and then teach them the principles of how polarities operate. So they can understand it is a universal principle. So it applies to everybody. You can't ignore it, it's like gravity, we like to say, it's always there. They're always working on you, there's 1000s of them. And you really have to be able to recognize them to leverage them. So that's our initial steps is to help them understand them, recognize them, begin to leverage them, and develop the skills of healthy relationships, and meaningful dialogue. So they can do that as easily as possible.

Michael Hingson 18:55If you would give me an example of polarities in business or leadership, to do some sort of concrete example, if you can. Sure.

Michelle Troseth 19:05So again, they're everywhere, but in businesses doesn't matter if it's a small business like ours are a really large business, they all deal with the same polarities, and probably a very common one is margin and mission, right? You have to always be balancing the margin coming into the organization so you can grow and thrive. And you have to be focused on mission of why you exist in order to create a sustainable business. So that's a major one. Another one for businesses that we run into all the time and we leverage these in our business, Michael is individual and team. So every person in a business or a company has a role has a purpose. They need to they need to practice or deliver their services, the best they can individually and they're part of a team. So how the team works together is equal be important. And you need to get that polarity, right size and well balance. So that's another common one. Also process and progress, right? You have to have infrastructures processes to run a business. And you need to be marking progress as you grow as well. And so that's another polarity that we use in our business. And there's, there's a lot more now leadership. I'm glad you said leadership too, because there's also polarities, that you have to leverage as a leader, such as candor, and diplomacy, your communication, again, is really important. In even leading and managing as a polarity, they have different attributes, they're to have different skills. And so we work with leaders on that one as well.

Michael Hingson 20:47Too many bosses think they're leaders. I, you're with me, you're you're right there with me. Too many leaders, too many bosses think they're leaders and they may or night, they may not be leaders at all. And you're right, they're totally different things. I know that. And I've talked about it here before, that, when I hire salespeople, one of the things I've always told them was, look, I hired you, I'm not here to boss you around. And my job, I believe, is to find ways to add value to you to help you be more successful. And you and I have to figure that out together. And that's a lot different than so many bosses would do. They missed the whole point of what would really make them a much more effective leader of the people they work with.

Michelle Troseth 21:38Yes, that.

Tracy Christopherson 21:39Yeah. And at the same time, you need some of those strengths of the manager, right, the one that's gonna make sure everything gets done and has all the processes and the infrastructures and manages that. So that's why you have to have both, but it's, it's balancing that knowing when the manager needs to step up, and knowing when the leader needs to step up in you, right, and you apply those, you know, you're looking for those outcomes simultaneously. But at different times, you're gonna need to be more of a manager at different times, you need to be more of a of a leader. And so it's really understanding that,

Michael Hingson 22:14but I think the real issue is that people that work for you need to understand when you're a manager, why you're a manager, in other words, you you do have to set the boundaries, you do have to set the rules. Yeah. And people who understand that and internalize it will be a lot happier and a lot more successful in the workforce. Right? Yeah, that's true. That's true. Which is, which is kind of really important to be able to do, but it really is a fascinating concept, to you know, to do this. How do you. So you've been doing this now, since you said, What 2017 2018? Is

Tracy Christopherson 22:56that business that we've been managing your piece for over 20 years? Right,

Michael Hingson 22:59right. But now you have your own business? You're doing it? How do you teach it?

Michelle Troseth 23:07Well, we teach it in various ways, our most common way these days is virtually. And actually we like to tell the story that Tracy and I got zoom before anyone knew what it was, it seems like. So we do we do virtual education, virtual coaching, we have virtual mentorship programs. And it's amazing how much teaching and application and connection you can do over the internet. But we also teach it and keynote speeches, just the concept to leaders. And we teach it in workshops. We have a group of leaders that there are out they love this so much. They're in a mastermind group. We work with them over the year, and they just deepen their understanding they achieve incredible outcomes, we get together face to face twice a year at our retreat. Location. And we do a lot with the whole polarity intelligence with him through those different experiences, and we teach it on our podcast. Yeah,

Tracy Christopherson 24:11yeah. Well, go ahead. No, go ahead. Well, I was just gonna say, you know, from a kind of a concrete perspective, you can map a polarity. So we really use blueprints and maps so that people can make the polarity that they are trying to leverage concrete and actionable. So in these in these in person settings, we actually put a big polarity map on the floor and we walk this polarity map with them and, and help them to really dive deep and understand what the polarity really is, which is the outcomes that they want the consequences. They'll experience right the actions they need to take, and the early warning signs that will keep them on track and keep them from over focusing or emphasizing one or the other. So that's really a fun Exercise and leaders love to kind of really step into it and they are in that real in person way.

Michael Hingson 25:07Makes a lot of sense. Have you found people who resist it?

Tracy Christopherson 25:12I have not found anybody who resisted it. Yeah, that's

Michael Hingson 25:14great.

Michelle Troseth 25:15I haven't either,

Tracy Christopherson 25:16I think because they have an experience of it, but they didn't know what it was. So we often have people come up to us say, oh, my gosh, I finally know what it is I've been experiencing, I finally have words to describe it. And that's the benefit. Well, you know, what we're teaching it to say like, they have experienced it, like we experienced gravity. But they didn't have a common language to explain what it was and how it felt. And now they do. So when they read the book, or when we teach it, they'll have that common language and way to describe what it is that they're experiencing, and others will understand it as well.

Michael Hingson 25:54That is pretty cool. And I was gonna say earlier, I forgot you do have a podcast. Tell us about your podcast.

Michelle Troseth 26:03Well, our podcast is in transition right now.

Michael Hingson 26:08But from one hole to the other, I couldn't resist.

Michelle Troseth 26:15That was really great. That was really like that.

Michael Hingson 26:16It's yours. You can have it.

Michelle Troseth 26:20Yeah, well, we started a podcast in 2019. The name of it is healthcare is missing logic podcast course our audience at that time was primarily healthcare leaders. But as we grew, and as more people listened to us, we got asked, Do you work with other leaders? Do you work with educators? Can you go work with Congress?

Michael Hingson 26:41I mean, we've had some Well, there's another story there. Yeah.

Tracy Christopherson 26:44That's another podcast episode that Yeah, another whole podcast.

Michael Hingson 26:47But yeah.

Michelle Troseth 26:49And so and now we have really developed a really robust, thriving, resilient, unstoppable, we call it true leader mentorship program, and we attract leaders that want to have thriving, resilient, unstoppable, which is why we like being on your podcast lives. And so we just, we're going to change it to be more, it's going to be the true leader podcast. And it's really focused on balancing, leading and living to represent both personal and professional poles as a leader. And,

Michael Hingson 27:23and that brings up a very important point, you got to have that life balance between living and working and living and leading on the job and all that. And I'm sure that that must be one of the big issues that all too many people are victims of, if you will, that you find right. Oh, yes. Oh, yes. How do you how do you get them to deal with that, but I got to spend this time at my company, I can't not do that. Well,

Tracy Christopherson 27:55the AI really comes in our true leader mentorship program, because it starts with understanding polarities, and that your professional life and your personal life is a polarity that work life balance isn't a problem to solve. It's not an either or, and that you actually have to give attention to both your personal life and professional life to get that highest quality life that you want to really thrive both at work and at home. And so we've developed a framework that's called the dynamic balance effect framework. And it has, has combination of strategies that when you put them together, enables leaders to create a dynamic, balanced lifestyle, and it becomes a part of who they are. So they leveraged polarities, they learn about that, that polarity, they create a blueprint, their own unique blueprint for how they're going to manage the tension between the two, you know, both the professional life and the personal life. And that's one aspect of it. And then we also help them to understand, one of the other pillars that we have is mindful choices. And we're always making choices, Michael, sometimes we're aware of the choices we're making, sometimes we make them unconsciously. But we're always making choices are living with the results of those choices. And what we want is make choices that are based on our highest values that are aligned with who we are that would help us to be in integrity. So you know, we want to make sure we're aligned to the values, we're clear on the values and we live by our principles. And so we really help them to get that clarity identify who it is they need to be in this new life that they're designing. And then another pillar really is personal alignment. And this is about harnessing tools and processes and infrastructures that help them to really kind of, you know, experience the peace and joy and the life that they want because they're aligning their actions to the essence of who they really are. They know what their purpose is, they know their strengths, everything becomes a little bit more easy and effortless when you have that clarity. And so we kind of use these three pillars, combined together to help them get that dynamic balance effect. And it's a lot of reflection and looking at the beliefs that we hold the norms that we operate under, and letting go of some things that don't really just don't serve us. And sometimes those are blind spots. And so we shine a light on the blind spots, help the reveal them, and then work through your processes to overcome them. What

Michael Hingson 30:33kind of a process do you go through to analyze any given an individual or leader in terms of determining how best to apply the dynamic balance effect framework to them? Or to, to bring them into it? I mean, because obviously, you have to take while you have similarities, each case is different.

Michelle Troseth 30:54Yeah, yeah. So there's a couple different things we do we do. We can do polarity assessments. So we actually have a methodology where we can actually assess how well you're managing different polarities, you know, how well are you managing your personal life and your professional life, your activity and rest, caring for yourself and caring for others, and we can show them, and then help them create more effective action steps and coach them around that. And then when it comes to personal alignment, we do spend a lot of time just getting to know their strengths. So we have various assessments that we do for that to really determine how are they wired, really what makes them tick, because everybody is different. And then they are able to apply those results to their blueprints, and their other tools that we provide them so they actually can accelerate and meet the goals that they're going after. And so those are, those are just some ways where we do measurement, and we do we also track progress with their goals over time as well. And they've had an amazing transformation results, it's been so much fun.

Tracy Christopherson 32:03Well, they do a life inventory as well. So they look at their life, from a lot of different perspectives, all the components of their life, and they have others also look at their life, and others do the polarity assessment to get a perspective outside of themselves. So we invite them, to have people closest to them, give them some real, you know, candid perspectives about what they see in their life. And, and that's also very helpful for them. When it comes down to it, it's up to them to decide what's the most the highest priority polarity for me, what's the highest priority skill or habit I need to develop? And we just can provide them with a guidance and, and coach them along the way to remove any barriers just kept, keep getting the barriers out of the way, because that's, that's really 90% of it. Just getting the barriers out of the way we know we need to do we just don't do it. Right?

Michael Hingson 32:57Well, you're right. And also, all too often, people are so resistive to to change their resistive to really analyzing themselves, because we don't teach people how to do that. I'm a great fan of introspection, spending time with the end of the day, what went well, what didn't go well, even what went well, could I have done it better. And I have grown to not like liking to use the term failure, other than it's an opportunity to look at what I did, and figure out how to do it better. But we become so defeated so often. And like I hear all the time, people are afraid of public speaking, and it's one of people's greatest fears. And it shouldn't be if we would learn what public speaking is really all about, which is talking with an audience, not to an audience. And again, it's just the kind of thing that people are so resistive to so many of the kinds of concepts I think that you're talking about. And leaders, hopefully are, in general a little bit different because they are leaders and they're open to it or you are able to work with him to get them to that point. But it must be a challenge.

Tracy Christopherson 34:16Well, yeah, the truth is, aren't we're wired to stay in our comfort zones, right? Our brains are wired to keep us safe. And so we have, you know, we react physically, when we don't when we're uncertain about the future or what experience we're going to have. So any uncertainty can unleash a sense of anxiety and us or we can hear that little that little you know, chatter in our brain on you don't need to do that you just stay right where you're at. It's really nice and comfortable here. You know, it's not easy, but you know what you're dealing with. So this is a lot better than going out there and trying something different. What if you fail in our brains, our subconscious feeds us all this so it's really really just increasing awareness of what we're saying to ourselves and how our brain is trying to keep us safe. It's what it's designed to do. But that's only because it doesn't know that it's okay to step out of the comfort zone. And so we really do a lot of coaching around that aspect. Because those are the things mostly that hold us back, is that we just resist, because it's ingrained in us to resist it's a part of our brain. So we have to train our brain. No, you know what, sometimes you just have to say, You know what, I appreciate what you're trying to do. But it's really okay for me to make this chance. It's really okay for me to take this chance to step out and do this. And you have to just kind of work with yourself around that.

Michael Hingson 35:44I, I agree, I hear what you're saying. It's the other side of it, though, is that we don't teach people to deal with fear. I know that for me, having been in the World Trade Center and escaping. People always say, Well, you weren't afraid because you couldn't see what was going on. And it's so difficult to get people to understand. Keep in mind that the airplane in our building hit on if I were to average it between 93 and 99. Floor, the 96th floor on the north side of the building, and I was on the south side of the building on the 78th floor. How was I supposed to know what happened the last time I checked X ray vision, and Superman are fiction, right. And the reality is going down the stairs, no one knew no one knew that we had been attacked by terrorists, we figured out that an aeroplane hit the building, because we were spilling the fumes from burning jet fuel. And I identified that odor, but four floors down from when we entered the stairwell. So it was probably about the 74th floor that I figured out that's the fumes from burning jet fuel when we figured that out. But I wasn't afraid going down the stairs. For I think a couple of reasons. One is, I always liked the concept. Don't worry about what you can control, focus on what you can and leave the rest alone because you can't do anything about it anyway, I didn't articulate that for the longest period of time. But I think that is something that's been in my makeup for a long time. The other part about it is, however, that I think that fear is something that is all too often taught and that if you have knowledge, and essentially what you're talking about, with knowledge, you can learn not to be blinded by fear, as I call it, or paralyzed by fear or overwhelmed, whatever you want to call it. But that fear can in fact, become a powerful tool for you, not against you. And so I'm actually working on on a book about that we actually, with a colleague, we've written a book about that. And the idea is that you can learn to control fear. And yeah, you may have some reactions when something doesn't go just the way you think. But you can learn to control your fears, and allow yourself to be able to move forward in a much more organized way that you don't have to let fear overwhelm you. Right,

Tracy Christopherson 38:13right. Yeah. And I think it's important to know, where's the fear coming from? Right? What is it that we're afraid of? Right. And I think working through those processes, sometimes, just getting that deeper understanding can help you release that fear and realize, Well, really, there isn't anything, nothing terrible is going to happen, right? In many instances. So it's just kind of really getting to know you're self aware your fears come from, I think is a very healthy way to look at fear.

Michael Hingson 38:41And that's a lot of it. And the reality is that we we don't, we're not encouraged to do that kind of self reflecting and self analysis and internalizing of what's going on. So the result is we react rather than thinking more about it, which is, in a sense, maybe another kind of missing logic. Yeah.

Tracy Christopherson 39:02Wow. Right. Right. But and it comes from our past. Yeah, to your point, because we haven't been educated or trained or haven't learned for that self reflection and, and right to do all that from the time we were children. We just respond based on our past programming based on the things that we've experienced in the past. That's what how our brain gets wired. So we don't have that to draw from so you have to build that skill to your right.

Michael Hingson 39:31Yeah, right. And I know for me, having been blind my whole life, I've been in a lot of situations where there have been unpredictable kinds of circumstances. I mean, heck, I lived. Well, anytime I cross the street. There's the potential of a car coming down the street that I missed, or that isn't stopping and I always have to be alert. What am I going to do about that or when I lived in in mass such UCITS for three years, I lived in the state that had the reputation of having had the I the highest accident rate per capita in the country. And I'm sitting there crossing the street with all these crazy cars coming down the street. So, for me, I learned that I have to be observant and not be afraid. Otherwise, why go out at all? And so it that doesn't mean that you just go put yourself in danger. But it does mean that you can deal with different things that go on. Right? Yeah. Yep. Great point. So it becomes one of the the issues to deal with well, so we wrote a book about it called Live like a guide dog. And the end. And the point is that I've had a number of Guide Dogs and other dogs in my life. And the idea is that dogs can fear. But more often than not, fear is learned like my fifth guide dog, Roselle was not afraid of thunder at all. Until we moved to New Jersey and live there for almost a year before she started exhibiting fear reactions and shaking and shivering whenever there was a thunderstorm coming. What we also learned is that a lot of that had to do with the fact that as the storm would approach, the static build up on her, gave her this Prickly, uncomfortable feeling. And then you get the thunder that goes with it. It caused kind of a fear reaction. And again, now we know more about dealing with that. And there are ways to teach dogs that they don't need to be afraid of thunder treats always help. But you know, that's a part of it. But but the reality is, again, I think it's as true for for humans, we need to learn that we can analyze what's going on, as you said earlier, and use that to better analyze ourselves and go Well, why are we reacting to this? Right? So you, you spend a lot of time obviously working with the people who you have the opportunity to, to work with to get to get them to to analyze all that. How long do you end up after on average working with clients? Or is it kind of almost a lifelong kind of thing? Well,

Michelle Troseth 42:24sometimes they might be with us just for a 12 month program. And sometimes we've had leaders with this going on for years. So I just really depends on what their needs are, what their you know, what their goals are. But we do have some that, you know, they just love working with.

Tracy Christopherson 42:46All right, well, unity, right. Yeah.

Michelle Troseth 42:49It's a community to communities. Yeah. Yeah. They like being a

Tracy Christopherson 42:53part of that community. Yeah, putting each other and learning from each other. And so that's, that's another aspect of the work that we do, we really are strong believers in the community and the supportive community. And we know leaders are longing for that right now. And especially leaders that find themselves in, in environments that don't feel psychologically safe. They're really looking to connect with others that are experienced some of the same things they're experiencing. And so we do have an ongoing community that people engage in as well. Yeah.

Michael Hingson 43:27immunity is a very strong tool that can help a lot too. Yeah. Yeah. Which is really, which is really pretty cool. Well, you know, leaders are people. Well, how come leaders often suffer from burnout? How come that happens?

Michelle Troseth 43:47Well, what happens with when in leadership roles. Sometimes what happens is you're with other leaders, and there's an expectation of behavior and thoughts that are based on shared beliefs of how you should act as a leader, how things that's just the way things are here. And, and then you become even maybe unaware that you are doing those behaviors or having those thoughts. And so what happens is leaders just develop a tracing I called Leadership norms. And those norms can actually be harmful over time. So an example of one is servant leadership. You know, servant leadership is a good thing. And it reinforces everybody before me, the leader eats last and over time, that has a negative impact on the leader and they do suffer from exhaustion and burnout. And you know, we have learned a lot from the airline industry, that there's a reason why they have you put your oxygen mask on first so that you can help others. And it's not an it's not a norm for leaders to do that they always think about even during cold I thought more about their teams than they did about themselves. And you know, just how hard you have to work as a leader, there's a whole norm around that. Long hours work hard climbing the ladder. And another metaphor that Tracy and I like to use is, you know, marathon runners know, they have to pace themselves. And you don't become a marathon runner, you know, by running 26 miles the day of the race, you have to, you have to practice the polarity of activity, and rest. And, and that's a lot like leadership, we're in it for the long haul, we have to learn how to care for ourselves and care for others. And what leaders are developing is what Tracy and I call the imbalanced leader syndrome. And we we see it all the time, we have leaders every week that say, Yep, I have that, you know, because they got overflowing to do lists of competing priorities, their financial and people resources are limited, which causes stress. They lack balance between their work and home, and they're basically just exhausted and unfulfilled. And they know, I think the key thing right now is they're really wondering if they can continue. And so they, they don't have a strategy for work life balance, that's the other thing that we really help them with. But that's some of the reasons we see leaders get burned out.

Michael Hingson 46:24Yeah, and you know, it, I liked the concept. And I've always liked the concept of servant leadership, but I do understand that it can be carried too far. And we need to understand that the best servants are the ones who really are prepared to do it. And it's okay to be and I think is appropriate to be if you're a leader, a servant, because your job is to help but at the same time, you can't do that if you're not properly prepared either.

Tracy Christopherson 46:51Right? Well, when it's, it's good until the point where you start to neglect yourself. And what happens is they prioritize everybody before themselves, and then they start to neglect their needs. Neglect, what you know, what's important to them. And they start to make mistakes, which cause burnout, right, like making themselves available and accessible 24/7 And saying yes, when they reach a request, when they really want to say no, and bringing work home and staying late working on vacation, and sacrificing time with family and friends to work and all of those things add up and build up over time. And that's what you know, can also lead to that imbalance leader syndrome or to burnout and exhaustion because they don't give themselves the rest and the things that they need to thrive and survive. And, and we're not saying don't serve to your point to write, but take care of yourself so that you can be that incredible leader you want to be because the stronger your personal life is, the more you know resilience you're going to have, the more mental clarity you're going to have, the more stamina you're going to have, the more ability you're going to have to serve the way that you want to serve.

Michael Hingson 48:04My most graphic example of that actually relates to one of my guide dogs, my six guide dog Meryl got Meryl in 2007. Roselle had to retire. She had guided for eight years, but she also contracted an immune disease immune mediated thrombocytopenia. So her body was going after her her immune system was going after platelets and so on. Anyway, so marrow came along, and it looked well for a little while. But then we started noticing that Meryl wouldn't play with the other dogs. We had two other dogs in the house Rosella retired guide dog. And we also were what were called breeder keepers for Guide Dogs for the Blind. The breeding stock would not stay in kennels all the time, but would live in people's homes except when they were doing their puppy things. So Meryl wouldn't play with the other dogs. And it got worse and worse. And as I eventually described it, she had a type A personality, she could not leave work at the office, she wouldn't play with them. She followed me everywhere. And if they tried to play she actually curled her lip a few times. And eventually after about 18 months of what wasn't even that was about 14 months of guiding. She started becoming very fearful of even guiding and wearing a guide dog harness. And eventually, the people like Eye Dogs for the Blind, observed her and agreed. And we had to retire her because she was just afraid to guide anymore. She just couldn't handle the stress of guiding on top of the stress that she was putting on herself. Oh, yeah. And the result is that, you know, she did she did retire. And then we got Africa who was my seventh guide dog, whose mother was the breeder dog that we were caring for which was just sort of a coincidence but Africa was the total opposite of Maryland, Africa did fine around people. Now we have Alamo and he does well. But it is interesting because to talk about Meryl, she just got to the point where she could not take the stress. And it was more self imposed, although she never realized that, of course, but it was. Well,

Tracy Christopherson 50:21and that's true for people to write. Some of these norms are self imposed, and we follow them. And we don't have to, but people need permission to let it go. They need to know it's okay to do something different to behave differently. So no,

Michael Hingson 50:37yeah, absolutely. That's, that's really the whole issue is that, you got to learn that and that was something that we could never teach Merrill, no matter what we tried. And so it just didn't work out that way. But it's just one of those things. But for me, so really graphic example of what you're talking about. And the other you know, if I were to also ask this, I just thought about it. We've been talking about leaders, what is the leader? How's that for a general question?

Michelle Troseth 51:10Well, sometimes we say everybody's a leader. You know, I think there's leader roles in pretty much everywhere in organizations and churches and schools and businesses. Certainly, in families, there's leaders, you know, and so it everyone can step into a leadership role, and I think have leadership qualities, you know, I think there's the title, but there's also attributes of leadership that anybody can really exhibit.

Tracy Christopherson 51:45So, and I think that's holding the vision, right? Yes, whether it's a family or an organization, it's really, you know, somebody that holds the vision for who we are, where we're headed. They, you know, to your point earlier, right, they're nurturing the people that are doing the work or taking the actions to move closer to the vision. And they're just that, you know, they're kind of that, you know, they're they're just that nurturing, they create a nurturing environment, and a healthy environment that enables people to bring their gifts, they lean into the strengths of others, and they bring people together, they connect people, to move the, you know, the efforts forward to move and strive towards the goals or the vision of who and who you who you are, and what you're trying to achieve. And they kind of hold that container for people to really step into all they can be and, and guide that, you know, guide those individuals in groups and teams, I think. Yeah, so think

Michael Hingson 52:55that, from a leader standpoint, one of the things that I have found is that true people who lead also know when it's time to let someone else take the lead on some given thing, because they have some gift or tool that will serve the team better than the so called leader. And I think that's again, one of the differences going back to near the beginning of today, between a leader and a boss, because I don't think bosses necessarily know that unless they truly understand leadership.

Michelle Troseth 53:32Yeah, well, there's a there's a polarity and leading and following to sometimes you have to know when to follow, right? And sometimes you need to know when to lead. So yeah.

Michael Hingson 53:43For me, again, going back to guide dogs, people mostly don't understand what a guide dog does. The purpose of a guide dog is to make sure that we walk safely, the dog doesn't know where I want to go or how to get there. And very frankly, I don't want the dog to know where to go and how to get there. Because that's, that's not their job, and how are they going to know. And too many people think, oh, it's amazing how your dog just knows everything. Well, it's not quite the way it works. But it's also true that we in every sense of the word form a team dog has a job to do, I have a job to do. And we need to build up on an extremely high level of trust. And understanding that we both know what our jobs are, and we know what the other individuals jobs is, so that we can be the most successful as we're walking somewhere or going from place to place that we can. And again, it works really well when the dog knows that it can respect me and that I'm going to respect the job of the dog and give the dog the support it needs. Because the dog in turn will do the same for me. Dogs want somebody To be a Cesar Mallanna would say, a pack leader. But at the same time, in the case of a guide, dog and person, there are times when the dog will be able to take the initiative. And should.

Michelle Troseth 55:14Yeah, that makes so much sense.

Michael Hingson 55:18Yeah, it's, it's pretty cool to see it and really understand it when it happens. Well, if people want to reach out to you guys, and make contact, and so on, and maybe explore working with you, how do they do that?

Tracy Christopherson 55:36Well, the best thing to do is to go to our website, which is missing logic.com. And both of our emails are on the website. So that's really great. And we also have a large LinkedIn following in there. And our handle for LinkedIn is Missing Logic LLC. So that's another great place to find us and kind of follow what we're doing. And then we're also in the process of starting a polarity intelligence website for our book. So there will be information about the book, information about us as authors. And so that's another place where listeners can go

Michael Hingson 56:13when the book comes out. Are you looking to make it an audio book as well? One would hope? Yes, yeah. Intent?

Tracy Christopherson 56:22Oh, yeah, it takes a little bit. It takes a little bit of time after the book has to be out for a little bit before we can start that process. So but yes, definitely.

Michael Hingson 56:31Are you self publishing? Or do you have a publisher?

Tracy Christopherson 56:34We have a publisher, Morgan, James Publishing?

Michael Hingson 56:37I'm sorry, what company?

Tracy Christopherson 56:39Morgan, James Morgan, James.

Michael Hingson 56:40Okay. Well, it's exciting that it's coming out and the name of the book again,

Michelle Troseth 56:45polarity, intelligence, the missing logic in leadership. There

Michael Hingson 56:50you go. Well, I hope people will seek out the book, and they will seek out you I think it's important to do that. And I think that you offer a lot. I certainly have appreciated you being here. Are there any kind of last things that you want to offer to people before we wrap this up?

Michelle Troseth 57:09Well, I just want to thank you again, Michael. It's been just a joy to get to know you, and the unstoppable podcasts and the great work that you're doing in the world. And so and just, you know, I knew it was gonna be a great conversation. It was so just leaving full of gratitude.

Tracy Christopherson 57:25Yes, thank you so much, Michael. It's really been a pleasure. Well, appreciate the opportunity.

Michael Hingson 57:31Hi, as well, this has been absolutely enjoyable. And we should do it again. Sometime after the book comes out. I'm sure you'll have lots more stories to tell. Oh, yes. Yes, yes, we well. Well, thank you. Thank you both again, and I want to thank you for listening. We hope you've enjoyed it. And Tracy and Michelle have a lot to offer. So please go seek them out. And I am sure if you are dealing with any kind of leadership issues or whatever, they will help you deal with the polarities and fix it. And they're absolutely right. Both sides of a pole or both polarities in anything, have to be there or it doesn't work. I love to talk about magnets, you know, you need a north pole and a south pole. And the reality is that one doesn't really make the process work very well. You do have to have both. So thanks again for listening to us. If you'd like to reach out to me, I'd love to hear from you. Please email me at Michaelhi at accessibe.com accessibe is spelled A C C E S S I B E. And it's Michael M I C H A E L H I at accessibe.com or go to our podcast page, WW dot, www dot Michael m i c h e a l Hingson. H i n g s o n.com/podcast. And wherever you're listening, please give us a five star rating. We love those and really appreciate that and your reviews. We value your input and your thoughts very highly. And for both of you, as well as all of you listening, if you know anyone else who want to be a guest on unstoppable mindset, please let us know. We're always looking for more people to bring on and have on his guests and have more fun conversation. So please don't hesitate to make any recommendations that you have. And so, one last time, Tracy and Michelle, I want to thank you both for being here very much. Thank you.

Michael Hingson 59:29You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visitwww.accessibe.com. AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

View Details

Derek Healy was born in Ireland where he grew up, went to school and, as he would point out, learned a lot about life. After college he entered the world of finance by selling credit card serves for Bank Of America in Ireland. He honestly talks about his mindset and inner attitudes which, as you will hear, were not so good for some time. He later sold other financial products.

After the world financial collapse, as he calls it, of 2008 he traveled around Europe for a bit until he finally decided to make a bold move in 2010. Derek moved to Australia where his brother was living. Again, he worked in finance.

Now, he owns his own businesses and has started the hummingbird sales academy. He teaches not only sales, but he also teaches mental attitudes and he shows/leads his clients and students by example to develop better mindsets and life perceptions. Derek also is the creator of the S.T.O.I.C code, a transformative framework, empowering individuals and entrepreneurs, to achieve unparalleled success. You will get to learn all about both the academy and this innovative code by the time our time ends.

By any standard, Derek is unstoppable, and he will tell you why this is so. My time with Derek flew by, for me, surprisingly fast. I hope you will treasure Derek’s words and lessons as much as I.

About the Guest:

Derek Healy is a business development expert, investor, speaking and coach.

Derek is an Irish Australian immigrant, who has travelled the world trying to find his purpose,

He is the founder of the hummingbird sales academy and creator of the S.T.O.I.C code, a transformative framework, empowering individuals and entrepreneurs, to achieve unparalleled success. He is involved in many exciting start ups and is soon to be wed.

Derek philosophy centres around core values of integrity, empathy, neuroscience, stoicism and a commitment to lifelong learning. His message if infused with inspiring stories, positivity, gratitude and overcoming adversity

Ways to connect with Derek:

Instagram: d_real_derekhealyWebsite: hummingbirdsalesacademy.com

About the Host:Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.

Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children’s Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association’s 2012 Hero Dog Awards.

https://michaelhingson.comhttps://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/https://twitter.com/mhingsonhttps://www.youtube.com/user/mhingsonhttps://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/

accessiBe Linkshttps://accessibe.com/https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBehttps://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/

https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/

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Transcription Notes

Michael Hingson 00:00Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visitwww.accessibe.comto learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.

Michael Hingson 01:20Well, hello, and welcome to another episode of unstoppable mindset. Today, we get to chat with Derek Healy. Derek has an interesting story to tell a wicked sense of humor. But if we were to really talk about there, he's a business development expert, investor, speaker and coach, my gosh, yeah. But you know, I don't know what he does in his spare time. We're really glad to have him though to be with us today. He's got I know a lot of interesting and relevant things to talk about. So we're gonna get to all of it. So let me just say, Derek, welcome to unstoppable mindset. How are you?

Derek Healy 01:57I am wonderful, Michael. And thank you very much. What a warm introduction. And I really appreciate your time looking forward to having a conversation. Me

Michael Hingson 02:06to will tell me a little bit about maybe the early. Derek, let's start out and get the early part out of the way so we can find out all your early secrets. Absolutely.

Derek Healy 02:15Well, I'll try and keep this as clean as possible. I know that I want to keep this kid friendly. So I will. What Irish, Irish originally, I'm not you can I'm sure you can hear that in the accent. I've been over here in Australia for 1314 years. And as the locks are fading, it seems the accent is getting slightly, slightly stronger again. But started off in Ireland. Relative relatively simple Irish upbringing, surrounded by sport, surrounded by humor, surrounded by bad weather. And then obviously, a pint or two in between. And it brought me over to this wonderful land traveled all over the world. Of course, like most Irish, like most Irish, we invade many countries, but we do it with a sleeping bag and a lunchbox.

Michael Hingson 03:08Did the bad weather get better when you had a pint? Say again? Say again? Did the bad weather get better when you had a pint?

Derek Healy 03:17Well, I think I honestly think that's nearly Irish. The Irish are known for the weather, and they're known for their drink. And I think if it weren't disappeared, Ireland would disappear. They come hand in hand. It's a package deal. So yeah, it's a package deal. But one of my first football teams is down that down the country football teams. And our dressing room was in the back of a pub. It was the old storehouse of a pub. So that's how integrated alcohol and into the Irish community if you like,

Michael Hingson 03:51understand, I've been to Ireland. I've only been once but I was there for about 12 days. As I recall, we were promoting my book vendor dog. And so I was invited over by the Irish guide dog school. And so we did a number of speeches that they had planned for us thoroughly enjoyed the time love the music, of course. Needless to say, as we talked about earlier on the way over on our flight, I was tuning around the various airplane music channels and I heard this Irish music and I was listening to it and heard it was a group called the Mary plough boys. And I learned about them they performed at the castle rockin we were in Dublin a bit and I was hoping to go hear them but unfortunately the one night we had available they weren't performing that that night so I didn't get to go hear them so I have to contend myself with my CDs.

Derek Healy 04:45There you go. What I'm sure that it the door is not closed, the door is not closed, it will be open and they will present themselves soon enough I presume. One

Michael Hingson 04:55way or another we will definitely work it out. So II. So you you were in Ireland, Ireland for a long time. When did you leave Ireland? I

Derek Healy 05:05left Ireland. It. It must have been around it actually it was it was around the global financial crisis, the global financial crisis. And that hit everyone, as you know. And it's interesting. When I look back at it the similarities to now, if you like, from an economic standpoint, and especially in Australia, right now, there's a lot of how would you say, there's a lot of talk in the corridors about how bad things are. And if I think back in Ireland, I don't even think the global financial crisis was as bad for everyone. I think it was more. Everyone was saying it. So people would just get on board and say, yeah, things really are bad. Like, so

Michael Hingson 05:46what mindset what year was that?

Derek Healy 05:48That was 2008 to 2010. So we were we were in Ireland, and the usual stuff, a lot of employers would make their would use that, that opportunity to get rid of a lot of people called Cass. But then obviously, at the same time, a lot of those people would increase the crisis price of living. So things were different things were relatively hard on the surface for a lot of Irish people. But to be honest with you, that that year, that two years that are all that was happening, myself and my friends have never traveled as much we traveled all over Europe. Again, none of us were working. But we found a way to do it. So as you can sort of adjust to the way of life even though things are tough. You actually can do more, when you have less than when you have more than you're doing appreciate us.

Michael Hingson 06:36Yeah. There. There are, of course, lots of hostels and other things around Europe that made it a little bit easier for people who didn't have a lot of money to be able to travel hostels,

Derek Healy 06:46and we weren't quite one thing about the Irish, we're able to talk our way into trouble and out of it at the same time, there you go. So there was times that we were over there traveling Europe, we weren't going to stay, we had no money, myself and a friend of mine, we were nearly going to have to sleep at a train station in Romania somewhere. And then we found these two ladies. And they said right, you can come back with us. And they they let us stay with them for a while like it was it was just an adventure. It was beautiful. But all all all good things must come to an end. So I needed to get my foot down and start earning some money, build a bit of a life. And here Australia opened the opportunity for me. How did

Michael Hingson 07:24that happen? So what brought you to Australia? What made that all happen?

Derek Healy 07:28It's interesting. I've never really been in my younger years, I was never really a planner. Like I never looked at a book and said, I'm interested in going here, here, here, here here. I suppose if I if I take a back step, I think one of the worst things that you can have is almost talent. Because if you're talented, it doesn't push you to the next level, you sort of rest on your laurels a bit. And that was the same with all my travel adventures. I've traveled all over the world. And it was never worth planning. It was always worth let's see where this takes me. And with Australia was much the same. I had a brother out here. And he was doing quite well. That was all the invitation I needed. And I said I wasn't going out necessarily to be with him. But I said, Australia that will do. It was like Tron it was like throwing a dart at a dartboard. And I said, Australia, but I could have very well ended up in Arizona or Nevada, or even California and I could be having this live with you if the if the if the star is aligned differently. But I'm in Australia,

Michael Hingson 08:26what were you doing before you encountered the world financial crisis in 2008? Well,

Derek Healy 08:34funnily enough, I was in the financial industry. So I was with my first ever, how would you say a job out of college was with Bank of America, which was an amazing learning experience water company to work for, I have to say, I don't know what it's like now. But when I was there in Ireland, it was an amazing adventure. Sober was always corporate sales, whether it be property recruitment, or even the financial side of things.

Michael Hingson 09:04Right. Right.

Derek Healy 09:05So a good solid background in corporate selling, if you like, How long were you there? In Bank of America. It was my fault. That was my first. That was my first real job if you like, and it was I accom I had just left college. And through a number of bad decisions in college, I had my mind almost went snap and that was from drug or alcohol or just over enjoyment. So about three or four years of just over enjoying oneself. My mind had gone snap so I was suffering from a little bit of depression. And my mother, I remember my mother had promised the interview and I was driving across country. This is only about 20 years old. 1920 years old. I was driving across country 7am Ice called winter's morning in Ireland. And I pulled up I didn't even know what Bank of America was I pulled up to this complex housing nearly 1000 people. And it was quite intimidating. But look before it before I was about to leave the car I was there, I looked back at her looking for some sympathy, please don't make me come in here, I got the raise of an Irish mother's hand was like, Get get in there. So I went. So I went, I went in, had initial training with the guys. It was my first you're in this environment, you're coming from college and Bank of America is very corporate, you've got the suit, you've got the tie, you've got all of that. So I learned from that, even dressing up. It's like getting into it getting ready for a football game, you get in you get involved, you get ready. And it's like gore time. So even that was a beautiful learning experience. For me just even entering that building for the first time. What year was that? That would have been maybe 2004 2005 something. So

Michael Hingson 11:03yeah, I understand exactly what you're saying it's a whole different environment, then we're, you know, we tend to be used to when we're students, and suddenly you're, you're thrown into this whole different thing that unfortunately, college doesn't help prepare you for necessarily.

Derek Healy 11:22No, it doesn't. It doesn't, it doesn't. And it's it's folly. If you look at leadership's the beauty of mentorship or leadership is you're being mentored or you're being led by people that have done it before. And they can give you real life examples of what to look out for and what to expect. And perhaps the people in certain universities, they're training you for something that isn't real, if that makes sense in training you from from books or from other people's experiences, and they're not able to articulate it or paint the picture correctly. And that, that opens up a lot of uncertainty when people enter the working world. So yeah, it is quite a big culture shock. I'm yet to find someone actually, that can say that college or university prepared them for the real world, I'm yet to meet someone, I'm not sure if you can actually introduce me to someone that can that can attest that. Well, I

Michael Hingson 12:22think something a little different. I think with light here, I went to the University of California at Irvine, which is a research institution, it was a it was a new campus at the time when I went there, but one of the things that generally, we were told was that the junior college or community colleges, and even the Cal State system, which were four year colleges tended to be much more teaching oriented, and I think tended to probably have more people who were a little bit closer to what you would find in a lot of industry and so on. And some of the people came from there, as opposed to most people at the universities, and it isn't a criticism, it's a different world. But most people from the universities are in a much more theoretical world, or maybe in a scientific environment experimental but still, you're right. They don't come from an environment where they think about teaching people to be prepared with for what comes outside of the university, and all those other kinds of things.

Derek Healy 13:40And I think, again, I'm not sure of the university systems right now. But there's a lot of talk about, like safe places, if you like or even even censoring the way people talk or the way people debate. And I think debate is such a beautiful, beautiful thing. And in the years that I've worked 20 years in the corporate space, and I've trained and mentored hundreds of people. But the one thing I've learned with the people that are unsuccessful is the people that are unable to deal with adversity, and they're unable to bounce back from disappointment, or they're unwilling to push themselves into uncomfortable states situations and stay there. That's the difference between success and failure. I think and, unfortunately, what seems to me the trend is universities are sheltering people specifically from those areas of growth.

Michael Hingson 14:36And even there's probably some merit to that. Yeah.

Derek Healy 14:40Which is, so it'll be interesting to see. It's all a big experiment. It's all a big game. So we'll see in 1015 years, what the what the results are,

Michael Hingson 14:48and whether anyone makes a real change. Or the other side of it is the universities do what they do and that's okay. For one one group of people, but still I hear what you We're saying that If college is really supposed to prepare us for life, then there are certainly other things that need to be brought into the curriculum somehow

Derek Healy 15:09into it. That's so true. That's so true. But another thing actually did Jesus on the university side of things. In Ireland, we've got relatively free education system, which is an amazing that we are doing that because education is so so important. But the problem with that is it becomes it, whether it be an industry or not. The problem with that is, when you're unsure of what to do, you're nearly pushed towards University. So even when a lot of my friends were going to university, no one knew what they wanted to do, and very few are doing what they went to university for. But it seems like it's like the next logical step to go towards. And that's not always right, either. It's more following. I don't think university should be going where you don't know what you want to do, you should you should, you should need to have a vision you should need to have because as we know, if you make a decision, whether it be right or wrong, at least you've made a decision. So when you make a bad decision, you can recollect and then turn that into a good decision. And that's even a learning process. But if you're just literally going to university, because everyone else is I don't think that's necessarily your decision. And therefore I don't think the results can be achieved.

Michael Hingson 16:21I think, I think there are too many people probably who, putting it in quotes, go to find themselves. And that's unfortunate if they really feel that they have to do that. They haven't been prepared or maybe haven't gotten what they need from their parents. And I will say there are some who do find themselves. But there are a lot of people who still come out with with a lot of challenges. And it's very unfortunate that it isn't just the academic knowledge, I would like to see people get from college university, but rather some of the other life knowledge that people could bring. And I wish there were more of that. I think you're right.

Derek Healy 17:03I think so too. I think so. But the problem is, though, Michael, if you are lost, you might, you're going to find yourself. But sometimes someone might find you and then you are literally, they'll find you before you find yourself and then you just become their train of thoughts. We're all programmed at the end of the day, but we need to make sure the programming is correct. And it's in our best interest.

Michael Hingson 17:26I know that when I went to university, I wanted to be a teacher, I always wanted to teach, I wanted to do something in the science world. But the other side of all of this discussion is that something happened along the way that caused me to need to shift well not need to but shift exactly what I was doing instead of going toward teaching and I had a secondary teaching credential. But I had been offered an opportunity to work to help make a new piece of technology available to blind people. And I was hired to coordinate a project for 18 months where literally, we put product around the country for people to use. So I was the person who would literally live out of suitcases in hotels for 18 months writing curriculum, writing procedures, teaching people to use the technology and eventually writing a final report. And I suppose you could say that as a result of that like writing training curriculum, I really did start to teach, although it was a little different than what I thought. And then it's and then I went to work for that same company. And after about eight months, I instead of doing the kind of work that I had been doing, was told that I had to be laid off because I wasn't a revenue producer, unless I was willing to go into sales. And what I what I learned, so you'll appreciate this. What I learned though, I took a Dale Carnegie sales course, and what I learned and still believe absolutely firmly today that the best real salespeople are teachers. You're teaching people about your product, you don't you, you can't force somebody to buy unless they really want to, and you might be able to break down their will. But that isn't the best way to sell. The best way to sell is to teach advice and counsel. And when you do that, it will reward you in so many ways. And I saw so many examples of that over time. So I ended up teaching anyway.

Derek Healy 19:30That was Wow. Wow. And you hit the nail on the head the best. When I went into leadership first similar story it was it forced me I was always able to do bring in generate revenue. But when I had to teach people how to generate revenue, it made me a better revenue generator. Yep. Because you need to articulate in a different way you need to influence the people that you're surrounded by. It's a different cell if you like it But yeah, Michael, I hit the data, you are in sales. In the end, you are in sales. You so there you go. Well,

Michael Hingson 20:07the other. The other side of it is that the more you teach people, and you leave it open for them to be able to ask questions and explore with you, the more you're forced to learn, because invariably, they're going to ask you questions you hadn't thought of Exactly. Which is so much fun. And I learned early on when I was getting my teaching credential, that when people ask you questions that you don't know the answer to, don't try to fake them out. Be honest, be honest answer. I don't know. And then go find the answer. I had that happen to me when I was teaching a freshman algebra class, and there was an eighth grader who was accelerated and he was in the class. And he asked the question, I don't even remember what it was. But it was a simple question. I just couldn't think of the answer. And I thought for a second, I said, you know, Marty, I don't know. But I'm gonna go find out and we will get the answer all up on the board tomorrow, and you're gonna write it on the blackboard? Well, when I came in, and he came in, he said, Mr. Hanson, I got the answer. I said, I do too. Let's compare notes. And we did. And he wrote it up on the board. And, and 10 years later, I met him at a fair, and his, now he wasn't an eighth grader anymore. He had this deep bass voice. And he said, Hey, Mr. Harrison, do you know me? And I said, No, I'm Marty, that guy with the question. 810 years ago, this just amazing. But isn't that amazing? It's such a lesson.

Derek Healy 21:42Wow, that that's it's amazing. The things that make such a big difference is small things that, yeah, it's the small things, but it makes a big difference.

Michael Hingson 21:51They make such a big difference. And after I did that, and told him, I didn't know my master teacher, who was also the football coach for the high school came up and Mr. Redmond said, you know, you told him Do you didn't know. And that was the best thing you could do. Because if you tried to blow smoke, they would have caught you. They would never have respect for you, you're gonna have their respect from now on. And you know, that was so true. And it's the only way to do it.

Derek Healy 22:17Absolutely. But I think apart from the fact that you went on the journey with him to find the answer, and you, you didn't, as you said, try and blow smoke, but you're shown vulnerability. And by showing some sort of vulnerability, we can nearly make a connection to that. Even it was funny, I was in a meeting there recently with a another friend, a business partner of mine, if you like, and we bought at the meeting. And I came in, had the meeting. And in my opinion, everything was perfect. Like the appearance was perfect. The way I spoke, nothing was out a turn, every answer was given perfectly coherently, etc. And my friend, his body language was a little bit off, he was slightly slumped. He wasn't looking at the person I was looking dead in the eyes. He was when I observed what he was doing. It didn't look perfect. But before the end of the meeting, the two guys that were sitting across the room, the question came up like what what's your thoughts? The guys directed to my friend? And they said, I'm feeling exactly he's, it's like he's inside my mind. They totally resonated with him. And I had to assess it. At the end of it. I was there. I was perfect in that meeting. Why were they why did they resonate with my friend who wasn't perfect, and they resonated with it, that didn't resonate with me. And I assessed it was that the guys we were talking to Warren perfect. And the fact that I was trying to be perfect, it not annuity alienated them. And they connected on an emotional level with my friend because he wasn't trying to be perfect. Nothing about him was perfect, but they resonated better with them. So sometimes, when we try to be that perfect individual, it's almost create a suspicion to the counterpart. And Shawn vulnerability is more human.

Michael Hingson 24:08And it shows you for what you really are not trying to be something that you're not necessarily at all. I when I speak. I love to speak in person when I can, I will speak virtually, but when I speak in person, I get to hear the audience. And I know there there are a lot of people who say, Well, you can't see the audience. I don't need see the audience. I can hear the audience. And one of the things that I have learned to do when I speak is to put different phrases or different things in sometimes a joke, sometimes just a comment, or sometimes a question that I want people to just somehow respond to. And I listened for the reactions and that has taught me over the years and now tells me how well I'm doing really connecting with the audience. And if I decide that I'm not really connecting, I will change something to connect, because I want to be with them. And I want them to be with me. I believe that as a speaker, I never talk to an audience, I talk with an audience. And it has to be that way, for the best speeches. And so I don't read speeches I customize. And sometimes I've had to do it as I go, I've got great stories about that. But the bottom line is that it's all about connecting. And when you can connect, it makes a whole huge difference.

Derek Healy 25:36That's amazing. So you're putting out little feelers if you like, just get the energy from the audience. And you, you can almost gauge that what type of audience you are going to be speaking to just by the prompts that you put out, if you're like, oh,

Michael Hingson 25:51absolutely can Yes, that's it. Now, having said that, they're all going to try to fool me from now on, but nevertheless, you know,

Derek Healy 26:00the, I recently heard a story, something about I can't remember that term, but it's you may have even heard of us. It was many, about 100 years ago, there used to be a horse, and it was a job as a German trainer, and he had a horse. And he used to go around to fairs. And the whole thing was that he claimed that the horse could speak could understand language. So he used to bring the horse into the fair, and they'd be surrounded by people. And then he would, he would get the horse to spell out certain names, certain words. So he'd asked the question to the audience. And the question could be, what color is this apple, and then the horse would go over and eat spell out red apple, like going over to the thing, he was able to do multiplication tables, he was able to do division. He was it was world famous this horse. So then a couple of scientists came over and they were they're trying to find obviously, some holes in the story. And they wanted to see if it was, if the horse could actually do that. So they went to the guy, they got the guy out of the room, so that they thought that was it. They whispered to the horse, what they need, what they need, what they go to multiply seven by seven as an example. And all the stadium was there, the guy would whisper into his ear, and then the horse, walk over and do 49. But then, by the end of it, they were there. How could it be? So what they did is they got rid of the audience. And then the horse was no longer able to spell multiply or divide. And it turned out that the horse when that question was presented to the audience, and the horse would be going over to the number or the letter, the audience anticipation, the horse would feel the anticipation, the horse would anticipate, he would anticipate, and it was by the feeling that the audience was given that the horse was able to hone in on this. So Michael, you are that horse? So you are a bit better than that is that is what you're doing. You're and you're getting the full feeling from the audience.

Michael Hingson 28:05Yeah, I hear a lot of information which makes which makes it amazing. That is amazing. So what was your first job with Bank of America? What did you start doing?

Derek Healy 28:16Oh, my word. So we went in no

Michael Hingson 28:18keeping besides being a closed model.

Derek Healy 28:20Yeah. The keep in mind, when I got my first job in Bank of America, I was I was leaving college and I was suffering severely from depression severity from depression. Now, if anyone is whether it be yourself or anyone else that knows anything about depression, it doesn't just remove all of your confidence, but it literally shakes you to the core. It's it's a terrible affliction, or anyone. And my first job was actually working in Bank of America in the credit card division. So when I had just finished my train, and I walked into that sales floor, there was about 300 Absolute lunatics. There was I walked in there, the energy in that place. There was over on the left hand side when I walked in, there was two girls running down the full length of the corridor having an egg and spoon race for money. There was someone over the other side throwing darts at balloons that were filled with money like it was, this place was just insanity. It was it was craziness. And there was so much confidence in the place and that was my first job with those and I remember being brought straight to my cubicle. And just so I didn't have to make eye contact with anyone and speak to anyone over straight on the phone, making making cold calls cold call cold call and push that as pushed out as literally banging out 100 Maybe 150 calls a day and that's no joke. This is I hear you 15 years ago is a lot different than it is now in terms of outposts in terms of whatever on a dialer. But as I started as the skill started developing, and as the conversations I started having with these individually was every conversation every sale I made. It was like it was rebuilding a stone wall of confidence that I had knocked down through the years before. And it was an amazing just almost metamorphosis of someone that came in with the most own confidence on the shell, I probably looked okay. But internally, I was broken. But through that through dealing with that adversity, and through learning those new skills, it, it changed who I was, it changed who I was. And I still have those same skills today. But and learned a lot from that experience. But call center finance, called credit card, the hardest thing you could ever do in the situation I was in, and I loved every second of it, loved every second of it,

Michael Hingson 30:48I worked my first job. Well wasn't my first job. But in late 1980s into 1990, I went to work for a company. And they're the ones that eventually asked me to go to New York to open an office because I was selling from the west coast to the financial markets, Wall Street. And we were doing it all by phone. So I think my record was about 120 calls a day. Normally, it wasn't that high because I spent time with customers explaining things about products. So for me, when I had 120 calls a day, I knew that in some senses, maybe I planted seeds, but wasn't as productive at getting sales as I was when I had fewer calls because fewer calls meant I was actually interacting more with customers, which is the way I looked at it. Our bosses wanted as many calls a day as possible. And that wasn't as practical as it should have been. But we over achieve goals. So it was okay.

Derek Healy 31:47Yeah, and I think that, that that is a train of thought in sales is it's a numbers game. And to a certain extent that is true, but it's about the value you're having with the customers. That's where the true change can happen. Yeah,

Michael Hingson 32:02a lot of people didn't have anywhere near the number of calls, even on a good day, if you will, from a sales standpoint. Because people tended to be way too distracted. spend too much time talking and, and not on the phone. And I love being on the phone. It was a lot of fun. Yep, exactly,

Derek Healy 32:21exactly. I wonder. You say that's a lot of fun, you can easily convince yourself that it's a lot of fun. And that's that's the trick as well, you need to it's a lot of people avoid getting on the phone, because they're, I don't know, it's it's their mindset of I don't want to get on the phone. So I

Michael Hingson 32:39don't want to talk to people, I'm afraid to talk to people, they might ask me something to show me up, which is of course getting back then to our whole discussion. From before, it's okay, if you get a question you don't know. And that happened to me a number of times, which also helped me learn a lot, technically. But when people ask questions, if I didn't know, I would just say, Look, you know, I am not sure. Let's finish this conversation and with other things that we have to do. Tell me when I can call you back, I'll have an answer. And I worked always to have an answer that was so important. And I do that today.

Derek Healy 33:16I like yeah, it's important.

Michael Hingson 33:20So how long would you do credit card stuff,

Derek Healy 33:24did it for two years, you know, a year, give or take, give or take, give or take two years, which is it can be a long time. But I found while I was there. Obviously you've you've I went from severely depressed, a broken individual to be one of the top performing executives right across Europe for Bank of America in terms of the outputs and the close rate, revenue I was generating. So I was riding high. But I always wanted that success. But I didn't even know what what really was successful. What I found during that whole, I suppose year and a half, two years that I was doing that I was still displaying the same sort of habits that brought me Depression years before, the only difference was, now I had a lot more money to partake in certain things. So you've you've you've still got the same How would you put them internal behaviors that bring you back down. And even though used on a on a on a conscious or an intellectual level, you may want that success, so to speak. But on an emotional level, you begin and continue to display behaviors that just brings you straight back down. You're not so Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Exactly. And that's another thing I suppose in universities what they could teach you. They teach you skills, they teach you skills, but they don't teach you correct habits. And if a day to day and a life style in a lifetime, in a day to day, and even in an hour, your life is just made up of tiny little miniscule habits and thoughts. And people focus on the big things, I'm gonna have this house, or I'm gonna have this money, or I'm gonna have this life, but they take their eye off the ball on the tiny little miniscule things. And that's what makes all the difference. And I did that for two years. But again, all my tiny little decisions were combinated to poor outcomes. Whereas, and I think that's, that's something I learned, it took me a long time to implement certain changes that removed bad habits. Because again, talent sometimes is, is a man or a woman's biggest curse. And you can learn that no matter how bad things are, I can bounce back from us. And that nearly is one of your worst enemies. Whereas if you focus on just the small things you can control and the small habits, it allows for long lasting success.

Michael Hingson 36:01So what did you do after credit cards, property,

Derek Healy 36:04there's a bit of property. It was, this was pre GFC. So property was all the rage, and it was all where the revenue was. That was fun as well. That's when I first moved to the fine city of Dublin, Ireland. So I spent a number of years up there. And we were selling property in Spain. So it was all golf course, beautiful properties. I don't think many of them survived the global financial crisis. So there's a lot of green open land over there. I don't think many survived. But it's, yeah, it's funny. There's, there's always, if you want to go, if you want to make money, just just that money is raining everywhere. And if you want to make it, you just have to go and stand under where it's raining most. And at that time, it was property. But the rain eventually stops. So you need to know when to get out. So yeah, it was it was an interesting, great learning experience there as well.

Michael Hingson 37:08Well, you have, but you have been doing work in the financial industry. And yeah, I'd love to hear more of the other things that you've done since but you've been in this business for almost 20 years. How? Let's say you've dealt with chinzy, you've done with millennials and Gen X and even baby boomers. What are the different groups? Like? How are how is how's all that evolved? And has it evolved in a good way from Boomers to Gen Zers?

Derek Healy 37:37Yeah, wow. The like, in Australia now, when we first came to Australia, how we integrated so well, was our commitment to just and it wasn't even our commitment, how we generate, how we integrated so well, much like most immigrants, you just get stuck in, you just try and do your best. Sometimes it's just a poor food on your table. So you've got that mindset of pushing, pushing forward, that allows you immediately just one of the laws of the universe by pushing forward and doing your very best as much as you can, you're gonna get certain results from it. And we're, we were greeted with open arms by the Australians, what seems to happen with a lot of the younger generation that's coming through, they don't have that hunger to succeed, it's more of a they're entering a safe place. And it's, they're not prepared to step outside that safe place to to succeed. That's why I do I do believe travel does implement certain behaviors that can be so valuable to people. As long as you're not supported by your parents on your trip, you need to be there needs to be an opportunity for you to go very, very hungry. And that's going to be a lot of learning from that. So with that with a lot of the Gen z's. For the last 10 years, when I've been working in this industry in Australia, the feedback from the market is these people are a jellyfish generation, there's not as much they just no one just wants to get stuck in no one wants to do this. And I've heard that so often. But why doesn't someone do something about it then? Like why do we accept those certain things by people? Or why do we? Why? Yeah, why do we accept those certain behaviors from individuals? And a lot of times people will. People will do what they see. I think as leaders, we're leading Gen Z if you like, we need to be living a life that inspires those individuals that they want to follow. So if you've got a lot of people that aren't, you know, will say that jellyfish generation Gen Z's aren't, they don't want to make us well perhaps that we need to as leaders, we need to be living lives that they want to emulate. They want to follow because there is a lot of people that they just don't dare look, no one wants To do nothing, people want to be inspired, once they're inspired, they will push true. And I think what's lacking with Gen Z is inspiration, there is not enough people to inspire them to on a path that they want to follow, or they need to follow. So with Gen z's, I've worked a lot with them. It is challenging, because as I said, a lot of them don't want to step outside their comfort zone. And what I found to help them with that was for me to live from, from a leader and from a mentor, to live the best possible life I can with the best possible habits with the best possible mindset. And, and, but And of course, by leading from the front, and if you can do all of those things, no, you're not going to get 100% of the Gen Z's if you like. But what you are going to get, you're going to get the people that want to change, and you can't change people that don't want to change. But when you've got the opportunity to inspire certain individuals, you need to do it right. So do you think that

Michael Hingson 40:59a lot of them feel more entitled, or they want to feel that they're entitled as opposed to have to earn?

Derek Healy 41:07Well, there is that of course, like, yes, there's a certain level of entitlement that is a really entitlement, because again, a lot of times, they'll want to fool, okay, well, this is what it is to change yourself. Okay. So as an example, from a diet standpoint, it's not hard to have the perfect physique. To eat perfect to do things as close to perfect as you can. That's not hard. Conceptually, that's not hard. But to implement that, and to actually stand by your diet, to stand by your exercise routine, something as simple as this. It's a lot easier to not do that. The simple things are easy to do. But the simple things are easy not to do. That's the problem. And it's a lot easier to focus on external matters, as opposed to internal matters. And I think that's what it is, a lot of the Gen Z's if you like, it's easier to focus on things that are outside their control, and focus all their attention on that or even use that as a leverage than it is to focus on the simple things of the internal because that's, that's the easiest to do. And it's the easiest to not to do. And I think that's where the thing is, but I think that comes back to inspiration. When I've worked with individuals. They see the work ethic, they see the true desire to help these individuals. And that can inspire people. So I think as leaders, I think the Gen Z's yes, there might be entitled, but what about the leaders? What are the leaders do about that?

Michael Hingson 42:43So course always the question, Well, what about the millennials and the Gen X's?

Derek Healy 42:49The millennials, the Gen X's? Yeah. But again, they're the leaders that came before. They're the leaders that came before. And if I hear a lot of them, like I speak with them, I hope none of them are gonna listen to this after but I speak to them every day from a consultancy standpoint. And a lot of those individuals will complain about the people that are in their organization. But what are they doing about it? And exactly? What are they doing about it? How are you making a difference, you can ask, push people to change, you need to lead people to change. And I'll be speaking to these business owners, these millionaire business owners, they'll be able to shape their business will be rolling to a certain extent. But there'll be big holes in their business and in their own personal life. If that's the case, how are you meant to be inspired these individuals? So a lot of people even with from a business owner, they were looked at the Gen Z's or the or the Gen Y's or they looked at other individuals and say they are not doing what they're supposed to be doing. But that's deflecting from themselves. Are they truly doing what they are supposed to do to inspire?

Michael Hingson 43:53Yeah, a lot of it has to absolutely do with inspiration, because people are going to relate to people they can look up to or that they can admire. And if leaders aren't doing that, then that's a problem. And one of the things that I've said many times is that bosses are not necessarily leaders and leaders are not necessarily bosses. One of the things that I did whenever I hired a salesperson, in our initial meetings after they joined, I would say, let me explain what are our roles here are, you're here to sell. I'm not here to tell you how to sell because I hired you assuming that assuming that you know how to sell. What you and I need to figure out is what I can best do to help you and add value to what you do to make you as successful as possible. And that's going to be different for every single person who I hire because they all have different talents and the people who got that leveraged me in many different ways and it worked out really well the people who didn't do Just plodding along as they usually do. And they didn't last very long. But the people who got it really put it to use. And we talked about, like what I thought I could add in a way of value to what they do in terms of being a sales guy, but also being technical and a physicist and being blind, I learned to listen very well, most of the time, my wife didn't always agree, but when, anyway, but but the bottom line is that the fact is, I would be able to add value to them. And they took great advantage of it, which I loved. Because they were more successful. That just we worked as a team, we created a team and it worked.

Derek Healy 45:44That is it. We are very aligned with our concepts there. We are very, very, very aligned with our concepts. And yeah, I think, yeah, that too much of it's too much, too many people are being pushed from the back, as opposed to being led from the front. And you as a leader did the right thing there by finding how can I make you better, that's all I'm here to do is make you better. So that's beautiful. And look,

Michael Hingson 46:11if we made mistakes along the way, admit it and fix it. There you go. But most of the time, it's easy. I think that's

Derek Healy 46:20what a lot of times, that's an interesting one actually. Even getting back to school, like in school. I even remember for myself, you get asked a question. And sometimes you'd be afraid to try and answer the question because you could be wrong. So you nearly get this PTSD of being wrong. And perfection shouldn't. When you're afraid of being wrong, then you're afraid of making decisions. And if you're afraid of making decisions, you're going to welcome procrastination. making the wrong decision is in theory, it can be the right decision. Because once you make a wrong decision, it's easy to rectify your path and get on the right course. But you just need to make a decision, you need to make a choice. Yeah. So if you if you can harbor, that environment, where mistakes are good, as long as you rectify them very, very fast. Decisions are good. If you can, if you can harbor that type of environment. That's an environment where people are willing to learn. And that's that's where I've had success, I suppose in any of the any of the roles that I've been in.

Michael Hingson 47:31Yeah. And I think it's important that we always learn. The best teachers are also good learners.

Derek Healy 47:38Yes, yes. Some of the best, some of the mesh, which makes a

Michael Hingson 47:43lot of sense. How do you measure your impact or the impact of what you do?

Derek Healy 47:49The Well, look, if even if you just look at it from a from a sales standpoint, it's always numbers, you'll always just chase. KPIs are numbers, but it was funny. achieving certain numbers has never been, it's never been a hard thing. And you will achieve certain numbers, get achieve certain goals, but it gets to the stage where even those certain things there's not as much not adrenaline, but not enough dopamine that comes from achieving the goals. And I think when I assessed I assessed that a while back, why did I not feel? Okay, were after achieving this amazing goal, why do I not feel happy, it's just like you've achieved that now move on. And it wasn't till I started till I was mentored by actually, it was a former prisoner. And he introduced me to so much philosophy and learnings. And it wasn't about achieving these bigger goals or measuring certain success. We took a backer step, and we just focused on our internal so we, when I look at measuring success, I don't look at the bigger picture, I look at the smaller little things. So to build confidence. That's where success success is meant to give you give you confidence. But I like to do it the other way. I like to build confidence to gain success. So I'll start off by trying to be a measure of success and myself. Now what I mean by that is, I'll be up at 4am I'll be up at 4am I'll drink two liters of water. After two liters of water, I'll do a small bit of stretching and I'll read and I'll journal a small bit, then I'll go into a hard workout. Then I'll go in and I'll have a coffee after that. Then I'll go in and I'll try and inch out ensure that I've got no negative thoughts during that whole two hour process. So by the time that 630 comes or seven, I'll have achieved six to seven things that very very few people will have achieved. I will consider that success. I will consider and that will that success that I got by within two hours. Most people want to achieve in most people won't even achieve that simple thing in a week. By achieving that success, I'll consider that success. So I suppose if I, if I take it back, where I used to always go wrong, where a lot of people go wrong, they'll look at this big goal as a measure of success. And then when they don't achieve us, they feel inferior, or they feel whatever. Whereas I'll take it back. And I'll look at every moment of my day as an opportunity to be successful. And that pushes me forward, like a Concorde plane throughout the entire day. And then the bigger things don't matter, because I've achieved all the smaller things, and then just happened so that the bigger things present themselves,

Michael Hingson 50:46and you've cleared your mind

Derek Healy 50:48completely, completely.

Michael Hingson 50:50So what is it you do today? What work do you do now?

Derek Healy 50:54I do a number of different things. I'm involved in a number of different startups, Mike, well, one of the things that I've always I suppose nowadays, you'd call it ADHD, or you could call it something, but I love looking at shiny things. And I'm always over, over stimulated by opportunities. So I work with a number of different startups in the AI space. I coach people, I mentor people. And I'm one of the founding directors of the hummingbird sales Academy, which is a sales Academy specifically to instill confidence, values, and ambition in in individuals. So it's, it's sales, yes. And sales is something that we focus on and skills and communication that we focus on. But really, our sales Academy is focused on habits, and instilling mindset and habits and individual. And that's where we're getting success from our academy.

Michael Hingson 51:54So is it a virtual academy? Or is it in person or?

Derek Healy 52:02Right now? It's, it's, it's how would you call a blended learning if you like? So what we find is, obviously, if you go to a sales training or any sort, of course, immediately you come back from it, you're highly motivated. And this is the problem. Motivation can dip. So what we find is, even during our two day bootcamp, there's huge growth, huge motivation. There's people nearly doing push ups at the end of it, you don't I mean, just You're, you're ready for action, and that motivation can wane. Yeah, so we blend it in with with weekly coaching calls and conversations to go through things. We we have regular meetups. And of course, then there's the online training, and you need to follow the code for our coaching to work. It's all about mindset. So there is a lot of fitness that's blended in those diets that's blended in those, how would you put it, some people would look at it, and they'd say, Well, that doesn't sound too enjoyable. But the idea is you need to change your mindset and focus on things that aren't that enjoyable. Because once you focus on them, and you master them, and you trick your mind into thinking this isn't that enjoyable. But then you trick your mind into thinking, I love this. This is the best thing ever, exactly what I do on the phone, Michael, you totally enjoyed being on the phone. There's people that don't enjoy something as simple as that. But when you trick your mind, and you consistently do it in your mind tells you eventually that you love this. That's what our program is about. It's about looking at things that you that may not be enjoyable on paper. And it's doing them to a level that suddenly you begin to love the uncomfortable if you like.

Michael Hingson 53:43And of course, a lot of the times that we don't enjoy something or we think it's not enjoyable. There's usually fear or something behind it, that we have to break through and recognize maybe it's not really what we thought. So

Derek Healy 53:56well. There's two voices, there's two voices in our heads, the king and the queen. I could use other other terms, but we'll just use the king and the queen for the moment. And the king or the king wants to do was conquer. You know the king wants to do is conquer. He wants to go out there. He wants to eat only when he needs to eat. He wants to conquer. He wants to build he wants to grow. He wants to mentor. And then there's the Queen, and the Queen wants to relax. The Queen wants to lounge the Queen wants to enjoy the spoils of war, enjoy the spoils of the day. And every single morning, every single hour almost, you're encountered with the king and the queen. And you get to listen, who do you choose to listen to? And that's going to define your day. So when I'm up at 4am and it's pitch dark out and it's raining, and I'm doing pull ups, or I'm doing certain things that and I know there's very few people up. I'm listening to the king. But as soon as that alarm goes off at 4am and I I want to go back to sleep and live beside my beautiful lady. That's the Queen telling me to just sit back, relax, you, you've been working out, you've been doing it too hard, relax, have a little break. So you get to choose to listen to the two voices. So part of our academy is identifying those voices, and working on strategies on how to only listen to the person that's congruent with where you want to end up.

Michael Hingson 55:24At any given time, at any given time, and get the two of them to communicate with each other, the King and Queen should be communicating. But you know, what do you do? That's

Derek Healy 55:32it. And, and our idea was, I went on a couple of years ago, I went to Cambodia and I did a retreat, a silent retreat and meditations and all the rest of it. And it was one of the guys that I worked with. She had said, Derek, you're too Yang. You need to find your Yeah, your your find your Yang, man, your your your to Yang. So you're right, the king and the queen need to speak together. Maybe I don't listen enough. And that's that's also a detriment. So you're right. Maybe there needs to be the two of them need to speak together as well.

Michael Hingson 56:04Yeah. Well, tell me what is you invented the STOIC code? Tell me about that. Yeah,

56:04the STOIC code as I said, What am I one of my mentors, and even one of my mindset coaches to this day, he was an individual that spent over 10 years in the penitentiary system in America. And he, he identified he, he spoke so much on removing your future self, and purely focusing on your, your, your this very moment in time, and only focusing on this very moment in time. And when I, when I reflected on the success I've had and what pushed me back, I realized there was never really any framework, I had all the skills in the world. But there wasn't really a framework that I followed. Everything was pushing forward, but there wasn't enough. How would you say, the foundation I was building foundations, I was building beautiful, beautiful houses, beautiful lives, but on a foundation of sand. So the story, the story code, it's, it's a framework, it's a framework for communication, it's a framework for influence. And that influence is also on yourself. But it's essentially it's a, it's a it's a way to sell, it's a way to communicate, and it's a way to influence yourself. So the STOIC code, it's built on five principles of story tenacity, objective integrity, and community, our communication sorry. So we've all got a story to tell. And as humans, we only resonate with story. We don't resonate with facts, we don't resonate with features, we don't resonate with benefits, we resonate with story. So when we're communicating with our clients or with ourselves, we need to have a relevant story that is going to be able to have that metaphor that people can connect with. So in our framework, we work a lot on our own internal stories, and being able to identify our clients, external or internal stories that will help influence the communication channels, if you like, the tenacity and our framework is purely centered on unfortunately, it's it's hard work, it's welcoming, uncomfortable. Our objective in the story is understanding this, and this is where a lot of people fall down, they focus too much on the outcome, they will from a sales standpoint, they'll focus too much on closing the deal or reaching their commission or they focus too much on on getting the deal if you like and that certain behavior, that mindset is going to it's going to protect you from a position of weakness in my opinion. So the objective in our in our framework is you only focus on what you can achieve. Now you can focus on your activity, your mindset, your attitude, and you remove yourself from the end outcome of the of the deal if you like and it's fully even put in and then of course integrity goes without saying and the communication side of things is purely based on the communication standpoint your your body language or tone and everything every form of communication that's that's centered around influence.

Michael Hingson 59:28Wow. And it's an incredible code and it makes perfect sense all the way around. Well, I have to ask one thing, there's a rumor about a wedding coming up. Hmm.

Derek Healy 59:41I can't believe you got the invitation already. I only sent that out here the other day. You got it in the post.

Michael Hingson 59:49I haven't gotten to it yet. But I heard a rumor from from a little hummingbird.

Derek Healy 59:53Oh yeah. Yeah, I am. I am to be weird. This coming in this coming December I'm actually to be read. So yeah, it's it's going to be an exciting one. So we're doing it doing it in Malaysia. We're based in Australia here, but my partner is she's originally from Malaysia. So we'll do it on on home soil. In the olden days, perhaps we do a Home and Away leg. Boris? Well, I think I'll settle just for the home leg in Malaysia for this one. So, yeah, so it should be it should be an interest in an affair. It's my first wedding. And I can guarantee you, Michael, it'll be my last

Michael Hingson 1:00:36one in my life. And it lasted 40 years, my wife passed away last November, which you're sad about. But I've got 40 years of marriage, and she's monitoring me from somewhere. So if I misbehave, I'm going to hear about it.

Derek Healy 1:00:49And keep in mind, she is monitoring you. I've no doubt about it. There is no doubt about it. She's monitoring. Yes. So yeah. Well,

Michael Hingson 1:00:56if people want to reach out to you learn more about the the hummingbird sales academy or just maybe seek your counsel and advice or just learn about you. How do they do that?

1:01:08Absolutely. So you'll be able to get us at the hummingbirdsalesacademy.com Get us at the website, you'll get me on socials, we'll leave them in the links in description. Whether this be from a business standpoint and advice standpoint or just to connect, reach out, we can share a lot of value with each other. And I think connections making a human connection is so important. So anytime, if you're if you're listening to this, feel free to reach out and connect. Laughter.

Michael Hingson 1:01:37Cool. Well, I appreciate it. I appreciate you. And I really appreciate the time that you have spent it's early in the day there. So it's what now about 10 o'clock in the morning.

1:01:49It's just 10 o'clock. And I've it's been a pleasure sharing a coffee with you, Michael. I'm sorry. I couldn't put the kettle on for you here. My coffee with you. It's been a pleasure. Well,

Michael Hingson 1:01:59I've enjoyed it very much. I hope that you've enjoyed it listening to us. To to Derek and we talk. We'd love to hear your comments. Please feel free to reach out to me Michaelhi at accessiBe A c c e s s i b e.com Or go to our podcast page www dot MichaelHingson m i c h a el h i n g s o n.com/podcast. Love to hear your thoughts love to hear your opinions. I know that Derek would love it if you'd reach out to him. And wherever you're listening, please give us a five star rating. We value those very highly. And we hope that you'll be kind enough to give us a rating like that. And one last time. Derek, I really appreciate you being here. And this has been a lot of fun.

Derek Healy 1:02:44Absolutely, Michael, absolute pleasure. Enjoy. Thank you again and speak to you very very soon.

Michael Hingson 1:02:54You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visitwww.accessibe.com. AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

View Details

I had the privilege of meeting Dr. Susan Lovelle through Facebook. While I got to know her a little during our initial conversation I had no idea of how many great and universally usable life suggestions and observations she would provide us all during our episode that you now get to explore. Susan knew from the age of six years old that she wanted to be a doctor. However, along the way she also discovered ballet and was a professional ballet dancer for nearly 17 years. As Susan explains, any kind of such an activity as ballet takes a toll on the body. Near the end of her ballet career she ended up being in the hospital intensive care unit three times. She then began to realize that something had to change.

She remembered her interest in being a doctor and went back to become a physician. After experiencing many rotations she settled on becoming a plastic surgeon. I leave it to her to tell you the whole story.

After working in plastic surgery for 20 years she decided she needed to go in a new direction and became a life medicine professional. Dr. Susan covers popular topics that directly affect productivity and well-being, from work-life balance strategies to the significance of self-care. She emphasizes the impact of personalized nutrition, sleep, and hormones on productivity and energy levels, while also offering effective stress reduction techniques to cultivate a more balanced life.

Our discussion is quite straight forward, down to earth and full of ideas we all can use. Dr. Susan has quite an engaging persona about her which will, I am certain, draw you in. I hope you enjoy her observations.

About the Guest:

Dr. Susan Lovelle, a former plastic surgeon, is the Founder of Premiere Wellness and Balanced Performance, offering all-in-one lifestyle health solutions for busy professionals and innovative companies. She specializes in boosting their personal energy, optimizing weight, and balancing hormones to unlock peak performance in every aspect of life.

Dr. Susan covers popular topics that directly affect productivity and well-being, from work-life balance strategies to the significance of self-care. She emphasizes the impact of personalized nutrition, sleep, and hormones on productivity and energy levels, while also offering effective stress reduction techniques to cultivate a more balanced life.

Her unique gift is to inspire audiences to prioritize their well-being and embrace a lifestyle that nourishes them holistically throughout each of the 1440 minutes in their day.

Dr. Susan has been featured on The Doctors, the docu-series Exhausted, Lifetime TV, Forbes, KNOW Women, and Good Morning Washington. Her book, Thrive! The Five-Week Guide to Mastering Your Energy At Any Age is available on Amazon.

Ways to connect with Dr. Susan Lovelle:

Phone: 919-925-5910Email: drlovelle@premierewellness.com

https://ww.premierewellness.com

https://www.linkedin.com/in/drsusanlovelle/

https://www.facebook.com/premierewellnessdrsusan

https://www.instagram.com/premierewellness_

About the Host:Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.

Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children’s Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association’s 2012 Hero Dog Awards.

https://michaelhingson.comhttps://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/https://twitter.com/mhingsonhttps://www.youtube.com/user/mhingsonhttps://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/

accessiBe Linkshttps://accessibe.com/https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBehttps://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/

https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/

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Transcription Notes

Michael Hingson 00:00Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visitwww.accessibe.comto learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.

Michael Hingson 01:21Well, hi once again, and welcome to another episode of unstoppable mindset. And we're recording this in later in 2023. But this is going to appear to you in 2024. Can you believe it? It's been two and a half years since unstoppable mindset began in August of 2021. Geez. Well, anyway, we are so glad you're here. And today we're talking with Dr. Susan Lovelle. And Susan is the founder of Premier wellness, which is changing its name to advance performance, balanced performance. And she'll have to tell us why she's changing the name. But I see that happening all the time. My blindness was caused by something that used to be known as retro lento fibrodysplasia. And somewhere on the line, they changed the name to retinopathy of prematurity, and I got it, that's fine. But gee, I loved retro retro Fibro pages. So I still don't know why they changed the name, but I'm sure they'll say it was more accurate. And who knows what, but people send up to change names. What do you do? Anyway, we are so glad that you're all listening. And Susan, we are very grateful that you're here with us today.

Dr. Susan Lovelle 02:34I'm excited to be here. Thank you so much, Michael.

Michael Hingson 02:37After that long dissertation about grousing about name changes. Well, why don't we start by I love to do it this way. Why don't you tell us some about some of the early Susan growing up and all that sort of stuff?

Dr. Susan Lovelle 02:52Oh, goodness, I

Michael Hingson 02:53know. Does that take back memories? Or what does? It

Dr. Susan Lovelle 02:57does? Well, I grew up in Brooklyn, New York. And before we left in the 2020, no 2002, we lived in four out of the five boroughs, both my husband and I, but grew up in Brooklyn and loved it. I knew though at the age of six that I was going to be a doctor because I used to have a sore throat all the time. And so whenever I didn't want to go to school, I would say, Oh, my throat hurts and it was always read. And so they take within a doctor, the doctor will say yeah, she's got, you know, the sore throat, and I got to stay home. But I also fell in love with my pediatrician. And I told him at the age of six that I was going to be a doctor. And he said at that time, okay, when you're ready, you come back and literally 20 plus years later, when I decided to go to medical school, I went back he was still in practice. And he actually wrote me a letter to get me into medical school. So I think that a lot to do with me getting in. Wow. Yeah. Nice to have friends. Yes, yes, it was. But in between six years old and going to medical school, I was a professional ballet dancer for 17 years. And that was because Saturday mornings, I used to get up and watch television and watch cartoons all day. And my mom was like, oh, no, no, no, this is not what you're doing. You're going to be doing something of value. And so she started taking me to dance classes. And I fell in love with ballet. And I ended up with the Dance Theatre of Harlem traveled the world with them to Europe, the Caribbean all over across the United States. And it was a total of 17 years that I danced professionally. Wow. Yeah, yeah. And then, you know, anything hard on the body dancing is sports, our you know, professional sports, anything like that. You can't do it forever. And so it got to the point where I knew I wanted to do something else and I remembered Medicine. And so that's when I decided to take all my classes. You know all the pre med classes that I needed and went back and got that letter and went to Columbia medical school in New York City. Dropped

Michael Hingson 05:13the sore throat excuse.

Dr. Susan Lovelle 05:14I did I did.

Michael Hingson 05:19That, that is pretty cool. And so you went off to medical school? Well, before we get there, have to ask since you've lived in for the five Bureau boroughs? Yes. Where are the best bagels? Oh,

Dr. Susan Lovelle 05:32definitely Manhattan. H H and H bagels. That was that was at least what I was there. That was where you went. They used to have lines around the corner for H and H bagels. Loved

Michael Hingson 05:43nowhere, whereas H and H I have? Well, they're

Dr. Susan Lovelle 05:47usually on street corners. I mean, they may I think they had one store where like I said the line would be around the block. But they would also sell them on like these little stands will be on the corner and you would just get this spectacular bagel off of cart. They were just amazing.

Michael Hingson 06:07I will have to get back there sometime and see if they're still around. Now I'm intrigued. I used to get Einstein Brothers Bagels in New York. Yes. Yeah, we visited Salomon Brothers and when they were still around and and so we went to Einstein, of course, part of the issue was they were fresh, which is really what helps the the flavor.

Dr. Susan Lovelle 06:29Oh, yeah, you got to get them like right out of the you know, right out of the office.

Michael Hingson 06:33We used to when I was growing up go to a bakery in Palmdale, California where I grew up on Saturday mornings, we would get rye bread literally. So hot out of the oven. They couldn't put it in plastic wrap. So it came in paper bags. And all that. took it home, put butter on it. And a whole loaf did not last the whole family very long at all. Of course not good. Bread is great. Yeah. And I love to still do that with a bread machine. But so it's not quite the same, but not bad, either. No, it's not. And then I also, I buy stuff from a company called Wild grain which makes sourdough products. And they par bake it and then they send it to you frozen in dry ice. So you have to finish cooking it. So you get all the benefits of bread hot out of the oven, which is wonderful. Yes, yes, yes, yes. Well, okay, so you went to medical school? And what did you decide that you were going to focus on in medical school, having been a ballet dancer and all that stuff.

Dr. Susan Lovelle 07:36It was very interesting, because when I first went, when I went to medical school, I thought I was going to be a neurologist. There are some neurologic things that have been in my family for decades. And so that's where I started. And then I, when you're in your third year of medical school, you rotate through all of the different specialties. And I rotated through surgery, and I was like, wow, this is like the best thing ever. And then in the fourth year, you get to try different specialties within surgery. And I, when I did surgery, it was really fun. But there were a lot of sick people. And then I did plastic surgery, I did my plastic surgery rotation. And that was like the ultimate people would come in one way you did their little thing. And then they went out a different way. They were happy, they were healthy, because you couldn't have plastic surgery if you weren't healthy. And I just said, this is what I'm going to do for the you know, for my career, and that's what I did for the next 22 years. Wow.

Michael Hingson 08:40And, and enjoyed it

Dr. Susan Lovelle 08:42and loved it. Loved it. And still, if I could still do just the surgery without all the other stuff. I might still be doing some surgery. What what other stuff? Well, you know, charting and all of the regulations that have changed since when I first wanted to medic medicine. Yeah. It's changed a lot. Unfortunately.

Michael Hingson 09:03I'm a fan of old radio shows and listened a lot to Gun Smoke. And of course, doc on Gunsmoke. And you're right. He never complained about charting and doing all those other sorts of things. Not at all, not at all. a simpler time, as they say was yes, it was. Did you ever do any plastic surgery on anyone who we would all know?

Dr. Susan Lovelle 09:27Well, no, there was some that were kind of known in their fields. Let's put it that way. So yes, yes.

Michael Hingson 09:36Well, that is kind of cool. Yeah, it is. And, and you enjoyed it. What really made it special for you that made you feel besides the fact that you got to deal with healthy people?

Dr. Susan Lovelle 09:49Well, I mean, it was also the other big reason that I went into plastic surgery was because you also rotated I mean, I also rotated through internal medicine, family medicine. And I knew that that wasn't what I would like to do, because people would come in with a particular condition, say they came in with diabetes or high blood pressure. And you would give them a pill or whatever. And then they would go away. And they would come back the next month, with exactly the same thing going on if they weren't even worse. And I said, I can't do that for the rest of my life. I wanted to make changes in people's lives. And so that was the other main reason that I went into surgery and specifically plastic surgery because I wanted to be able to help people change. And that has so much to do with what I do now. So

Michael Hingson 10:38you did plastic surgery for 22 years, and I appreciate that. But what What made you change

Dr. Susan Lovelle 10:45that into what I do now today, it was actually a first it was a personal change. And so if you can imagine, as a plastic surgeon, you're busy, you know, you're in the operating room for hours on end, some of my cases were 368 hours, I think the the record, there was a 24 hour case. So can you imagine it's this was teens, it was three different teams. But 24 hours, we were working on the sprint, so long cases, very grueling. And for the last two thirds of my career, I was a solo plastic surgeon without any other plastic surgeons nearby, you know, the closest would have been maybe a half hour, 45 minutes, very unlike, say, New York City. And so I was very busy in the operating room all day long. But then especially, you know, a little while ago, and maybe 1015 years ago, I'm still raising my children as well. And so I would operate all day or being seeing patients all day and then come home. And then I was still taking care of my kids because I didn't want them to suffer because I chose to be a plastic surgeon. So now I'm a soccer mom go into debates and ballgames and things like that. Which would have still been okay, if if I weren't the only plastic surgeon in the area. And so when you are at two o'clock in the morning, when the child gets bitten by a dog or falls off the table and gets a cut on their face, who are they calling, they call him the plastic surgeon. So now this is me working almost 24/7 Because there's nobody else to pick up that slack for me. And so it got to be really grueling after a while. And what eventually ended up happening was I no longer was taking care of myself. So I'm taking care of my patients, I'm taking care of my family, but I wasn't taking care of myself. And that's something I see a lot with the people I work with today. In me it presented with me being very inflamed, and eventually ending up in the intensive care unit three times in the space of one year. And I tell people, you know that third time, I almost didn't make it out of the intensive care unit out of the hospital, my I had gotten septic, which is a raging infection throughout your whole body. And there was nobody watching me at the time. And if my husband hadn't come unexpectedly, to see me later that night, you know, no one would have known and I may have just slipped away. So that was my final wake up call that third time. And that's what I said something has to change. And you know, initially what I changed was how I was eating, you know, I started eating better, because I had gotten falling into that I'm busy so I don't have time to cook real meals, just eat junk food. And you know, I had gained about 35 pounds, which on a five foot two woman is a lot of weight. So you know, I started changing how I was eating and then I started moving more I started getting better sleep. And eventually I healed myself for what was going on. And I tried to do this with I wanted to show this to my my patients because this to me was the true transformation. Not just having surgery on the outside, but changing how your body is actually working on the inside. And you know people come in from plastic surgeon surgery don't necessarily want to change their diets. They just want to have this surgery. And so eventually I switched altogether to lifestyle medicine, which is what I do now.

Michael Hingson 14:32Where were you practicing plastic surgery that you were the only one in the area?

Dr. Susan Lovelle 14:36Ah, the first six years was in Elizabeth City, North Carolina. That is northeast North Carolina. And then we were we had moved out to Wichita, Kansas so I was at a place called Newton which is about a half hour outside of Wichita. And there were no other plastic surgeons. There were some in Wichita but there were nothing new He was about a half hour away. So for that 1015, almost 16 years, I was the only one within at least a half hour. Wow. It was an hour. Yeah.

Michael Hingson 15:11So being from New York, why did you end up going to North Carolina? And then Kansas? Yeah, yeah,

Dr. Susan Lovelle 15:17it was. The first move to Elizabeth City was the year after 911. And for someone who was born and raised in New York City, it, it just the city completely changed. The whole, there was so much tension was almost like it was a police state. And we just didn't want to raise our children there. And so I think we kind of went a little bit too much in the opposite direction, because when we were in that first place in northeast North Carolina, we were living right next to cornfields. So we went from New York City to living in cornfields in a county that had three traffic lights, 6000 people, and three traffic lights. So that was a bit much. The second move was the year, right around 2008. So we know what happened across the country. And in small, you know, small cities, plastic surgery. Yeah, maybe not as important. Right, exactly, exactly. So we moved to where there was a greater need for us at that point.

Michael Hingson 16:26Well, when September 11 happened, of course, I was there. And we were up in the tower and got out and stayed. Really not for an inordinately long time. But what happened was other job opportunities came along. We weren't afraid to be there. So I didn't get to see. However, I think a lot of the things that you saw on the times that I've been back to New York since then, it it changed. But in general, we found it to be a little bit quieter and a little bit more reflective kind of city than it that it had been ahead of time, which is also not a little bit of a surprise.

Dr. Susan Lovelle 17:07Oh, yes, definitely right after a head was very, very much reflected very quiet. And everything was that later aftermath of honestly, maybe the fear. You know, growing up in New York, I tell people that we left our doors open all day long. In our neighborhood, we didn't lock our doors, we didn't shut our doors, kids ran in and out of all of our homes, this thing in New York City, you know, but that's the way we were raised. And that is not the way it was after 911, it really changed a lot.

Michael Hingson 17:43I remember, for at least the first month after September 11, Rudy Giuliani was everywhere. And he really did help lift the city up, of course, a lot changed with him over the years, too, which is extremely unfortunate. And he had only kept on the path that he did, but so many people change and, and that's the other part about it. We allowed fear to overwhelm us collectively. And, and that's a problem. And now we're really allowing fear to overwhelm us. And we do so much based on fear rather than really looking at things in a in a more reflective and substantive way where you stand back and look at things now we go, well, this person is clearly in the know and telling us what we need to know. So we're not going to believe anything else. And that is so unfortunate.

Dr. Susan Lovelle 18:40It is we've we've if you look about we've collectively stopped using our minds, our individual minds, and we've started just being in collectives, you know, the group thinks this, and therefore, I must think that as well. Yeah, it is, as you said, unfortunate.

Michael Hingson 18:58Yeah, I mean, I look at the economy, and people are saying how bad the economy is, okay. Where's the evidence of that? We're spending more than we ever have. Our income is up to above pre pandemic levels. And while some prices are up, basically most things are not and it's just crazy.

Dr. Susan Lovelle 19:21Exactly. Well, like you said, it's that that fear that kind of takes over and it blocks out reason. Good

Michael Hingson 19:30does. It does, definitely. And and that's why I started in during the pandemic, and it's going to come out next year. I'm, I talked a lot about not being afraid, on September 11. And that's because I learned what to do. I understood the process, and really created a mindset that said, You know what to do in an emergency, and if the building comes down, and Rania, there's nothing you're going to be able to do about it anyway. So you might be afraid for that last second before tons of stuff falls on you, but, but you know what to do. And so I was able to escape. And what I've realized over the years is I've never taught other people how not to be blinded by fear as I describe it. And so we wrote a well, we're just about done with it a new book, entitled live like a guide dog, which talks about the lessons to learn about fear from my eight guide dogs. And then we also had a breeder dog for guide dogs for the blind to talk, who was also part of the family who became my wife service dog, Karen was in a wheelchair her whole life. And being Fantasia figured out how to fetch things for her and do other things for her. But all of these dogs had so many lessons that I observed and helped me understand how to live and not be afraid, or how to be afraid. But how to use that fear and focus it and not be blinded by it or paralyzed by it or overwhelmed by it, or however you want to say it.

Dr. Susan Lovelle 20:59Oh, well, I will be looking out for that book.

Michael Hingson 21:03plan is for it to come out in the July timeframe.

Dr. Susan Lovelle 21:08Oh, so soon? Yeah. Well, I say that because the years go by so quickly.

Michael Hingson 21:13I know don't Yeah, time flies. It does. It does. But But I think that we we really have just allowed fear to completely take away our reason. And it's so unfortunate that so many people don't want to think for themselves anymore. And we're better when we think for ourselves, and really draw conclusions based on solid evidence and real things.

Dr. Susan Lovelle 21:40Absolutely. Absolutely.

Michael Hingson 21:42So you went off and you decided that while you had been doing plastic surgery that things were happening to your body. And so that's what sort of made you decide to change.

Dr. Susan Lovelle 21:53Yes, that was the that was the beginning. You know, when I had to is metal fact, when I came out of the hospital, the that third time, I was so exhausted, so weak that I had to have a couch, put in my office right next to my exam room. So I used to have my exams at one end of the hall. And then my office would be at the other end of the hall. And so when I was feeling well, I would walk back and forth, you know, in between patients. Well, after that third time, I was so exhausted that I had to have my couch moved to the the office right next to where I saw people, so that all I had to do was walk out of the one office and into the next one out of one room and into the next so that I could sit there and rest before the next patient came in. And that was ridiculous. And so that's when I knew I had to change what I was doing. Because, you know, it is something that I see in a lot of the executives that I work with a lot of the the people that I work with, where we're so focused on doing what we do, you know, doing what we love to do, not wanting to stop that when our health starts to suffer. We ignore it until it's a disaster. You know, some people call it burnout. Some people call it a breakdown, whatever you want to say that your body breaks down, your mind breaks down or both. You know, we keep going until we can't anymore. And what I want is to get people to understand that we can get ahead of that. We don't have to wait until it's it's a disaster or a bad thing.

Michael Hingson 23:33All too often it sneaks up on you because it's happened so slowly. Yeah. And we tend to not be nearly as aware of our bodies as we should be. I remember when Karen became ill in 2014. She had bronchitis. And it kept getting worse. And she said no, it's going to get better. And I had to actually go out of town and while out of town. It really got worse. And her sister who was a CCU nurse, actually, I called her and said this is going on and she called Karen and listened to her for just a few seconds and said either you call an ambulance and go to the hospital or I will and they she went in and they said it was the fluid first and didn't do a lot. But they monitored her. So that was on a Saturday and Sunday. Suddenly they had to put her in the ICU intubate her she had double pneumonia and acute respiratory distress syndrome. No. Yeah. Oh my goodness. What what I learned, what I learned is that pneumonia can really sneak up very quickly because I say, Well, you didn't see any of that Saturday and the doctor said No, it wasn't there.

Dr. Susan Lovelle 24:49Wow. Well, yes, it can. It can it can definitely blossom and bloom very quickly. But you know, that's that's one of the other things is that it's You know, you luckily your wife had somebody who could hear her and told her, you know, told her what to do. But a lot of us don't. And so one of the things that we need to be able to know is what our own bodies, what our own bodies are trying to tell us. They're feeling well, when they're working well, and when they're not. And whether or not then we need to be able to go and get help. But

Michael Hingson 25:22she wasn't listening to me, which was unfortunate. But but her sister gave her an ultimatum. But it was so bad. Her lungs were like 90% occluded, and they actually had to use an incubator, and have a peeps level of 39 just to get air into her lungs. Wow. Yeah. And you know, normally that would just explode lungs and badly. But, but she did come out of it. And family then convinced us we should move from Northern California to Southern California. We love Northern California. But we moved to be closer to family. And it's worked out very well. It's worked. I was

Dr. Susan Lovelle 26:02wondering if there was a difference between the you know, the northern, because the weather is different, too. I didn't know if that was it? Well,

Michael Hingson 26:07and we live in a town that's 20 150 feet above sea level. And so it's it's different than like LA because we're up in what's called the high desert. So for example, this morning, it was down to 40 degrees. And, and we we we do put up with cold weather.

Dr. Susan Lovelle 26:28Even in Southern California, I guess, okay, okay. Yeah, it happens. Where we are now in North Carolina. It's getting into the 40s in the mornings, too. And we're like, Whoa, this is this is kind of nippy here. Yeah. But that's okay. To cope.

Michael Hingson 26:44Well, and, and unfortunately, Karen's body finally just she was in a wheelchair her whole life. And her body just finally kind of started giving out and we lost her last November 12. So it was a year on Sunday. And as I tell people, she's still around. And if I don't behave, I'm going to hear about it. So I try to make sure I'm a good kid. Definitely, definitely. Yeah. But we're in a house that we built together, we had it made completely accessible. And it's well insulated. And it's got solar. So

Dr. Susan Lovelle 27:18we do Okay. Excellent. Excellent.

Michael Hingson 27:22Well, so you, my gosh, you've had essentially three careers to a degree, although plastic surgery and life medicine are sort of similar, but you made this jump from belay to medicine, which is a huge thing. And you explain a little bit about that. But tell us more about life medicine, and what that's really about. And you know, we can we can obviously spend some time talking about that,

Dr. Susan Lovelle 27:46Oh, absolutely. I love it, too. So I call it lifestyle medicine, because people will get a better grasp of what I do, it's changing things in your lifestyle that will help your health. So for instance, it's changing what you're eating. And a very simple thing that can help everyone is to eat whole foods, you know, eat foods that you actually recognize in the form that they're coming. So instead of a processed potato chip that fits all in a can, because they're all the same size, eating a potato, an actual potato. So that's like one of the biggest things you can do that will change your change your health. As far as movement, a lot of us think that we have to go to the gym and spend hours in the gym every day. Well, we don't, we just need to get up and move ourselves. You know, sometimes what we do in Premier wellness, which is now balanced performance, and I'll tell you why that is the wall in a second. What we do there is just have people move, say every hour, get up in the mood for an hour for a minute or two. And if you do that throughout the day, by the time you get to the end of the day, you have booked yet 30 minutes that is recommended that we all do sleeping more, you know getting your hormones in shape, lowering your stress levels, these are all very simple things that we we kind of pushed to the wayside or they aren't very important, but they have a huge impact on our health going forward. So that's lifestyle medicine.

Michael Hingson 29:19Well, I will admit that I still from time to time eat potato chips. And that's a good thing. But I can go to Costco, but I can go to Costco and buy a bag of ruffles. And it will last a month to six weeks.

Dr. Susan Lovelle 29:37Oh my goodness are longer.

Michael Hingson 29:43Because I love I love to eat more whole foods. I don't need probably as many like baked potatoes as I should. But I just don't need that many potatoes in general. But by the same token, I hear exactly what you're saying. What about things like so Sweet potato fries I hear a lot of people say, Well, they're they're healthy. They're okay. Yeah.

Dr. Susan Lovelle 30:04So here's the thing if you're making them yourself Absolutely, yes. However, if you're buying them at, you know, like a regular restaurant or something or even frozen in the in the frozen department, they often put additives so that they don't stick together. So yes, the sweet potato part of it is fine. But what they do to make the fries not stick together in the bag can be not as healthy. So it's really a matter of reading what the ingredients are, and also the oil that they're frightened. But we don't want to go too far down, down, down into the weeds. But different oils have different price, you know, do different things with your body. As far as inflammation. I

Michael Hingson 30:48use this new oil called airfryer. Yes, yes, exactly. So they're oxygenated. And I we got an airfryer, about three years ago. And I think actually, for the first time, in four or five months, I actually turned my oven on because I had something that I wanted to do in the oven as opposed to the airfryer just because I thought it wouldn't fit in the air fire. But I love the air fryer. It's one of these that does everything from baking to boiling and air and and even air frying. So it is my main say for cooking and love it. Oh,

Dr. Susan Lovelle 31:26they're wonderful. And you use so much less oil and you still get that crunch, which is what I think most of you really want. We don't necessarily want all of the fat. We just want the crunch.

Michael Hingson 31:36Yeah. Well, I don't use any oil when I'm using the airfryer. Cuz I don't see any any need to do that. Yeah. And it tastes pretty good. It does. It does. But I hear what you're saying in general. What about things like he teaching people to be more introspective and reflective during the day to one of the things I tell people and we talked about it in the book is about slowing down taking time at the end of the day to think about what happened. Don't view things as failures or negative view things as learning opportunities. And even the things that you did really well. What could you do better? The things that didn't go like you thought they should? Why? And what do you do, so that won't happen again, and take the time to do that every night? Exactly. I

Dr. Susan Lovelle 32:23love that, you know, the fact that you actually think about as you're going through your day. And then when you get to the end of your day, what actually happened. So it's not just a blur, because we're just talking about how fast the time goes, how fast the days and the weeks, the months go. And if you're not doing some of that introspection is gonna fly in pasture. One of the things that I like to say to the people that I work with is I call it Listen, let go and live. So you want to listen to what your body is trying to tell you, you know, just just listening, sitting down. And maybe it means taking some time off going off by yourself. And just listening. Sometimes it means writing things down, someone may not know if a particular food is is irritating them. Well, if you write it down, you can follow pattern. So listening to what your body's telling you. The second is to let go of whatever isn't serving you. And that can be hard. If there's something that we that we just love, or a you know, elbow is not doing our body's well or not doing well for us, we need to be able to let it go. So whether that's a food, or sometimes it's a job, or sometimes it's even a relationship, just being able to let things go that are no longer serving us. And then the third one is to thrive, the LIS let go and then you live and so you're going to live your own version of thriving, you know, whatever that is. And I say it is an example I use hot yoga, because I don't like being hot. I love yoga, but I do not like being hot. And so I'm not going to do hot yoga, I'm just going to let that go and live my own version no matter how many people tell me it's wonderful for you. So it's really just a matter of doing the things that are that you enjoy that bring you joy that bring your body health and vitality and life gets better like that just gets better that way. Well

Michael Hingson 34:23in the reality is that not every single thing works exactly the same way for every single person.

Dr. Susan Lovelle 34:28Absolutely, absolutely. Yes.

Michael Hingson 34:32And it's and it's important to to again, look and listen to your body and we just don't know nearly as much as we ought to read out.

Dr. Susan Lovelle 34:42Yeah, and one of the biggest things you know the the perfect diet because there is no such thing. First of all, we shouldn't be on diets anyway. But there's no such thing. It all depends on the person what their body likes what they like and we're so much Listen to this, well, I only do keto and keto is going to work for everybody or I do paleo or I do vegan, or whatever it is, we get these into these camps where we can't see what works for other people as well. What works for us, well works for us well, and we shouldn't be forcing it on anyone else. Yeah.

Michael Hingson 35:21And we should be open to the fact that if it's working for someone else, then that should be a good thing, which is kind of the same thing that you're saying. Exactly. Exactly. Yes, yes. But it's kind of crazy the way the way we do stuff again, it gets back to not really paying attention to the things around us. Now we know we we I think there are commonalities that are bad as you point out, eating potato chips all the time, or other things like that are not not good for you. I remember a baseball pitcher. Oh, gosh, when did Denny McLain pitch in the 60s? It's in the late 60s or mid 60s. And one of the things that he was known for was drinking 30 or so bottles of Pepsi every day, which did affect his teeth after a while. Oh, he did win 30 games one year, which is why he was very famous. But still. Danny? Danny drank a lot of Pepsi. I you know, I have just never been much of a soft drink drinker like that.

Dr. Susan Lovelle 36:28Exactly. Yeah. Well, would you say that I have. I have my my very first client used to drink 25 cans of diet cola every single day. 25 cans so didn't want her teeth. But it sure didn't knock her energy out. Because she thought that was the only way that she could make it through the day. So you're right. We get into these these habits that we think are really helping us. And they don't necessarily Yeah.

Michael Hingson 36:56Is this the time to say that I have a friend? Who years and years ago when the LA Rams were first in LA would sit down with a case of beer every Sunday and drink the whole case while he watched the Rams game. Oh, wait, wait case? Yes. 24. Oh, my goodness,

Dr. Susan Lovelle 37:16I can't even make it through. I can much less.

Michael Hingson 37:18I've never liked beer. I love water though. I drink a lot of water during the day. And just I've always liked water. And I do drink tea in the morning. But tea and caffeine has never bothered me. But I like a hot drink. And so tea is less in the morning. Yes, right? Yeah. And it has a whole lot less calories than hot chocolate. So I'll stick with the tea most of the time. Exactly,

Dr. Susan Lovelle 37:42exactly. Yeah. But when we when you were talking just before about how different things can affect people differently. It reminded me of you. We've all heard the stories of people who were in their 90s who still smoking their their cigarettes and having a drink every day, but and it worked for them. But we know that that is not what works for the majority of people. So it'd be it'd be more realistic, I think. And

Michael Hingson 38:09maybe they didn't get cancer or anything from the cigarettes, but it doesn't change the fact of what cigarettes do to people. Exactly. And if they lived it into their 90s. That's great. One could only wonder how much longer they might have lived if they didn't do it at all.

Dr. Susan Lovelle 38:25Exactly, exactly. Yes. Yes.

Michael Hingson 38:29It's one of those things. So clearly, though, it's it's more than eating and it's an it's more than sleeping, it is really a holistic approach that we need to look at and learn about for for ourselves and figure out what works for us, right? Yes,

Dr. Susan Lovelle 38:45absolutely. And, you know, I tell people, when someone starts to work with us, we have a an assessment that shows them what works, what's working well in their lives and what's maybe not working so well. And then they have the option of either making the things that are working well like the best they can possibly be. Or they can start with the things that they are struggling with a little bit and see if they can get those to be better. And that's often what people will choose, you know, because they'll see, oh, my goodness, you know, I'm not sleeping well enough, or my hormones are out of order or you know, my relations, whatever it might be, they want to get those better. And so it gives them the opportunity to choose what they're going to do. And that's the main thing is because when we try to change everything all at once, usually nothing gets happening, nothing happens, because it's just too much in our bodies get overwhelmed. But if we choose one thing and work on that systematically, then we usually are able to to achieve those things going forward.

Michael Hingson 39:47Why is it that more traditional medicine doesn't tend to focus nearly as much on the whole idea of a holistic approach? Well, if I open up a can of worms I'm saying

Dr. Susan Lovelle 40:02we will, we will say that the secret Big Pharma, but no, usually, what tends to happen is that in medical school you were taught, here's the disease, here's how you treat it. Okay, here's you, here's the shot, take aspirin, exactly. Here's the therapy, the medication, the drug, whatever it might be, to fix it. And so I almost think of it as especially like when, as I was mentioning before, when people come in with diabetes, you'd give them their pill, and they'd go away until the pill didn't work. And then you give them another pill. And then finally, they're on insulin. And so it's just like this, this wheel that keeps going down and down and down. And so I think of it almost as if our health of the leaves on a tree, and when the when we don't have our health, the leaves are brown, you know, they're brown, or they're about to fall off. And traditional medicine is taking a can of green paint, and painting those leaves green again, so they look good, you know, that we're taking that medicine, the leaves look good, they look green, but they're not any healthier. And until we change, what's causing that, you know, until we change, what's causing diabetes, or the high blood pressure, whether it's stress, or sleep, or nutrition, or movement, or relationships, whatever it might be, until we change those things. We can't change the actual leaves on the tree and make them healthy again.

Michael Hingson 41:29Yeah. Yeah. And it's, it is it is an issue and, you know, you're right, I know that a lot of it has to do with people want to continue to sell drugs and so on. And, and, and medicine can be helpful. But are we learning collectively and medical science and elsewhere? That maybe there's there really is more to it than just taking more drugs? Or have we really started to alter our, our attitudes I'm gathering? You have an answer for that.

Dr. Susan Lovelle 42:05I don't think we're quite there yet. And I say that in mainly because, as I mentioned, I've been lifestyle medicine. Some people call it functional medicine, integrative medicine, holistic medicine, whatever name you want to give it, where we're not just looking to a medication or a pill to heal, we're looking at other the entire body, the mind, the soul, the you know, the everything. And it's not until it's we have these two camps still. And those of us in the lifestyle integrative side are still looked at a little bit asked once by those who do still treat with traditional medications, almost as if, you know, like, what's wrong with them? Or who do they what are they trying to do? Because that's not the way we were taught in medical school.

Michael Hingson 43:00And then the reality is that, I think what you would say is, there's nothing wrong with medications, but there's a lot more to keeping the body healthy than just medication. Absolutely.

Dr. Susan Lovelle 43:14So you know, when when someone starts to work with me, a lot of times we'll give them supplements, a specific supplement to support a need, say, for instance, they might need magnesium. And so I will give them magnesium initially, but not with a thought that they will be taking magnesium for the rest of their lives. It's still until their bodies get healthier. Whereas that's not necessarily the thought with traditional medications is that the traditional medications are thought to be the solution to the DIS ease that the person has

Michael Hingson 43:52rather than being a bridge. Exactly, exactly. Well, obviously, a lot of what you really encourage people to do is to change their their mindsets. Do you have a story that you can tell about any kind of a specific example where a mindset change really dramatically changed a person and obviously for the better? Oh.

Dr. Susan Lovelle 44:18There are so many, one of my favorite, just because it illustrates the ripple effect is a woman who had rheumatoid arthritis. And one of the first thing that we were doing that whole let's go to Whole Foods, let's get away from the processed sugars and carbohydrates. And at first it was hard for her, she said because she really really, really loved what she was eating. But she tried it for a week and felt so much better that her it's like a switch had flipped in her head. And so she was able to say okay, this is so much better for me that I'm going to come I struggle through until my body realizes that that, you know, it doesn't need this stuff anymore. And so she did. And that was, you know, she changed herself. But the thing that was so amazing was that people around her, you know, her mom saw her then eating the way she was. And her mom said, okay, you know, maybe I need to change this too, because maybe I don't have to struggle anymore, either. And so she literally had this ripple effect in her family of health. It was amazing.

Michael Hingson 45:34And it's nice to have a support system. So when you've got several people doing it, they obviously help each other. Yes,

Dr. Susan Lovelle 45:40yes. As opposed to, you know, someone else's is going to bring up the box of cookies. You know, your favorite cookie, whenever you sit down? Yes, I've had them in both ways.

Michael Hingson 45:51I know people think I'm crazy, but not this year. Last year, I bought a case of Thin Mints from the Girl Scouts. And I think there are still out of the 12 boxes 10 Either in my freezer or on a pantry sales.

Dr. Susan Lovelle 46:11Oh my goodness,

Michael Hingson 46:12I'm you know, it's easy out of sight out of mind. Right. So unless I touch it, I keep forgetting about it. But you know, but but I do find them up there and just plain don't go after them. They're a great treat. And and I love it as a treat. But I have grown out of needing to have lots of that stuff. And occasionally, if I catch myself really wanting to have more sugar and more of those things. It's a conscious effort, but I can stop. But the Thin Mints are still up there. And they'll they'll be devoured over time. Actually, I feel more guilty every year because I have too many boxes of statements to buy more from the Girl Scouts to support them. Oh, no. Yeah. Yeah, I

Dr. Susan Lovelle 46:56think we we feel especially with sugar. Because sugar really is very addictive. It's been proven to really turn certain receptors on in our brain. Yeah, but we feel that we can't do without it until we kind of get over. It's almost like we go through withdrawal. Yeah, once you get on that other side, though, you know, then you're able to say, you know, I don't really need that, and people will look at you and they'll go, really, but it's, it's true.

Michael Hingson 47:22So for me, I have something sweet when I want to, but I've gone days without. And, and I'm not trying to brag, but rather I understand exactly what you're saying. And it's so much better and fulfilling. Because I know that I can eat and I weigh myself every day. So I also make sure that I don't gain weight, which is another reminder. But I do like to not have to rely on eating some of that stuff. So the Thin Mints are there, but they will slowly go down. And you know, worst case, I can buy growth Thin Mints and give them to somebody else. And I've done that too. Exactly, exactly how to support the Girl Scouts. That's right. I love that got to deal with the important things in life. You know, needless to say, well, so you do you get a lot of criticism from traditional medicine Do you? Do you get a lot of people saying you're obviously a screwball, or anything like that, or

Dr. Susan Lovelle 48:30to my face? No. And I think a lot of that has to be, you know, I was a former plastic surgeon, and I'm a physician. But I do hear from other traditional practitioners, when they're talking about, say, a health coach or someone that they may not know that they're put down just a little bit so. And I to be honest, I do remember when I was in the hospital, and I was still trying to do both both plastic surgery and lifestyle medicine, trying to do them together. There was a little bit of friction between my practice and the hospital, because they just didn't understand the reason for it. So yeah, there is a little but I haven't been, you know, totally ground down into the ground about it. I think it really has to do with a lot of my own. You know who I was in the in the scheme of things. My

Michael Hingson 49:28fifth guide dog was Roselle. She is the one who was with me in the World Trade Center on September 11. And when we moved back to California, the we actually lived in an area just a little bit of ways while we were in an area called Bell marine keys, which is built to be like Venice, Italy. So every house was either on a lagoon or a waterway between lagoons and so across the lagoon from us was a family the Wilsons who among other things, had adopted rosellas father, a breeder from Guide Dogs for the Blind Seaver. So they introduced us to their vet, Dr. Cottington, who was a holistic medicine type of person. And he might as much as anything encouraged Eastern medicine even on Roselle, it very various times, and there were some times that she needed supplements and so on. And so I got a really great opportunity to learn from him. Both in terms of dealing with Roselle, but obviously other things that helped philosophy that I was able to adopt, and Karen was able to adopt in our lives because he made such a difference in Ravel's life. Hmm,

Dr. Susan Lovelle 50:40I love that. Yes.

Michael Hingson 50:43was kind of cool. So what today, would you suggest to people as initial steps to starting to overcome maybe some of their health issues or deal with getting their life more in balance?

Dr. Susan Lovelle 50:58Whoo, I love that question.

Michael Hingson 51:02If you have besides eating bagels from New York,

Dr. Susan Lovelle 51:05that's where you gotta you gotta eat New York. What I would say first is to know your numbers. Okay. And I say that because I deal with so many people who have no idea what their blood sugar is, or what their hemoglobin a one C is, which is, you know, related to your blood sugar, they don't know what they're, you know what their cholesterol is, or they just don't know. And if you don't know, you can't change things you can make better if you don't know. So just to know, a lot of times, what I hear is, Well, I had my blood work drawn, but my doctor told me everything was fine. So I didn't even look. Instead, you are your own, you are your best physician, you know your body best. And so when you know your numbers, when you know the trends that you're seeing, you know, because it's trends about trends as well, if if every year you know your blood sugar's getting a little higher and a little higher and a little higher, eventually is going to flip over that where it's not okay anymore. So looking at trends is so important. So that's the probably the very first thing. And you know, once you've got that and in, and sometimes it requires a little push with your primary care, to ask them to really explain your labs and not just say everything's fine to really explain them, and to have them look at optimal levels, not just normal levels, because there's a lot of what I call dis ease in the normal in that normal range. So we want numbers that are optimal for our bodies. That's probably the first thing. And then the second is, like I said, start listening to what your body's telling you. So if you're exhausted, why are you exhausted? Is it that you're not sleeping enough? Is it you're not eating well enough? Is it that you're that you're running yourself ragged? Is it that you have too much stress? Why are you tired? So don't just accept the symptom, but try to start delving deeply into why you have that symptom?

Michael Hingson 53:10Well, the the interesting thing, in what you're saying about all that, at least from my perspective, is that I love numbers. And I, personally, fortunately, have a medical plan that allows me access to automatically all of that we use Kaiser. And so whenever we go and do lab tests, all the results are sent to or are stored in our records. And we get messages to say, here's Here are the numbers. And I always look at the numbers. And I think that's extremely important to deny. I don't remember what my cholesterol is. I don't remember the number right now. No, no, but I also know that it was considered to be well within the normal range. And and whether I'd call it optimal or not, I don't know, it could be considered that it was but I appreciate what you're saying. And it's really important to, to know the numbers, and to get the data for yourself, even with your doctor who may be a great expert. You still need to know that information directly.

Dr. Susan Lovelle 54:19Yes, yes. Yes, absolutely.

Michael Hingson 54:23And that's all happen happens all too often that we don't get the numbers.

Dr. Susan Lovelle 54:29Mm hmm. And the other thing is that the the second part of that is, we often believe that if mom had diabetes, I'm going to have diabetes or dad had high blood pressure, I'm going to have high blood pressure. And so the second thing that I always share with people is that you are your own person, and you can change what your genetics are how your genetics are expressed. So you can't change your genes, but you can change the way they are expressed. So you don't have to just because everybody in your family has diabetes, that does not mean that you have to have diabetes. And so just knowing that you are the captain of your own ship, if you're going to put it that way for your health,

Michael Hingson 55:14well, so if everybody in your family has diabetes, it seems to me what you need to do is to, if you're truly concerned about it, and want to address it, start to look at what your options are. And then it also goes back to the numbers, keep an eye on the numbers to see if you're really having a positive effect on your body. Exactly,

Dr. Susan Lovelle 55:36exactly. What are the anyway, there are some new technologies out there now that that make it so much easier. Because before, if you want to know your blood sugar was on a routine basis, you have to stick your finger and let's be honest, that's not fun. It's not fun. But now they have little devices that you can put on your arm. And it will tell you continuously, what your blood glucose is for a period of two weeks. So you can do something like what happens when I eat this particular food? What does it do to my blood sugar, and then you can change your meals and your and your nutrition? Depending on real data, not just guessing or, or looking at what somebody else is saying that you should do, you're going to see what your body particularly loves.

Michael Hingson 56:25And, yeah, obviously, how it's affecting you and act accordingly. Again, it gets back to do the basics yourself.

Dr. Susan Lovelle 56:32Exactly, exactly. What should people do more

Michael Hingson 56:36in the community and getting more community support to help them deal with with issues and help the community deal with issues? Yes,

Dr. Susan Lovelle 56:44yes. I like to look at the blue zones as a as the beacons, you know, as far as community is concerned. So the blue zones are these areas around the world where people consistently live into their 90s and are healthy, you know, so they're not just clicking through and barely making it, they're living full and vibrant lives well into their 90s. And one of the things that they noticed, one of the big things that they notice is they all have strong communities. They all you know, they have families, that groups that all live together, work together, enjoy life together. And so when we bring those things back to our environments, it just changes. You know, I asked people do you know your neighbors? Do you know the people in your in your neighborhood, and if not, go out and start introducing yourself, start becoming connected with the people in your area, so that you will all can support each other going up. If that doesn't work, then you go and find things for groups that you're in things that you're interested in, you know, whether it's one golf, not a golf, baby music, or my husband and daughter just joined in astronomy astronomy group, I mean, it's just a lot of you join what you're interested in and grow together. So that's a huge thing for community.

Michael Hingson 58:16You have a family, which is cool. How do you deal with personal life balance and balancing that with professional work?

Dr. Susan Lovelle 58:23I do is so much better now. Well, when I didn't do it so well, it's when I was burning the candle at both ends, you know, I was the surgeon they everything all day, and then the mom and thing all night, that does not work. What I have learned since then is that there is balance and what balance is is not necessarily going to do everything exactly even all the time. What it does mean though, is that some days your work is going to take precedence. Some days, your family's going to take precedence, and you need to be able to alter your life in a way that that's possible. So if you're in a position or a job or something where you can't make that change, then maybe it's time to start looking at a way to make that happen. Maybe it means you need to move your job maybe it means you can change your job or you know, change things within your job. But it's balanced is all about give and take. And you know especially now I think a lot of us are you after the last couple of years with working from home. A lot of us got into that thing where work and home were just one big conglomerate, you know that sort of thing. And we need to be able to separate it so for me when I'm working at home, I have a hard stop. You know I stop at and I will determine whether it's five o'clock six o'clock, one time to 7pm but whatever it is, that's when when it stops and then then I I'm home, even though I haven't left the location that I'm home. And if you don't do that, then you do get into that place where it's just 24/7 nonstop. And that's not sustainable. That doesn't help at all. Yeah,

Michael Hingson 1:00:13it really doesn't. What are some innovations that you're seeing some positive innovations that are really helping move the whole concept of wellness forward?

Dr. Susan Lovelle 1:00:23Well, the things like the the continuous glucose monitor that I just shared with you, there's more technology now that we can use. So that's, that's a good thing. I do like to caution people, though, because I am a, I'm a tech nerd kind of that you don't want to just depend on those as well. So even you know, no matter how good the tech is, there are things like another thing that I use is what's called a brain tap. Where are you using light and sound and beats, to help reduce your anxiety to increase motivation to increase sleep better, things like that, that there are technologies that can assist you in getting your body healthier and stronger. So those things are just amazing that they're coming out now as well. But I say with everyone that they the most important thing is knowing what works for you. And working with that first. I

Michael Hingson 1:01:26love that people are also starting to learn or some people at least are starting to learn more about things like meditation, oh, seeing the value, which goes back to being reflective, introspective, and so on, but that they're recognizing that taking that time to meditate is extremely important. Yes,

Dr. Susan Lovelle 1:01:43yes. And it's interesting, you should say that was, I didn't even that didn't come to mind. Because that's so long been a part of what I do. I think about it. But yes, definitely meditation. However, what I do hear a lot, especially from people who are busy, and haven't yet learned how to slow down and de stress, they're like, I can't meditate, you know, I'm tired, I am too busy, I can't stay quiet enough to do that. And that's why I felt sometimes the technologies can help a little bit because they get past that you don't just listen, you know, and it's going to take you there. Once you get to that point where you can, where you know what it feels like to slow down, slow your breath, slow your heart, slow your brain pattern where you slowly be able to do that, then you can go into something like the traditional meditation and reap the benefits there as well.

Michael Hingson 1:02:39How do you stay resilient, you must have a mantra or something that they you use or a philosophy they use to keep yourself resilient and positive in life.

Dr. Susan Lovelle 1:02:47You know, it's funny, it's what I was thinking about that it's nothing lasts forever. That's it. Not the good stuff, but not the bad stuff either. So life Life flows, it ebbs and it flows and you go with that flow,

Michael Hingson 1:03:01and the good stuff changes. That doesn't mean that it's going to go away. It's going to be different good stuff. Exactly.

Dr. Susan Lovelle 1:03:08Exactly. And I I'm probably a Pollyanna anyway, by heart, but that that has taken me quite away.

Michael Hingson 1:03:20We named the book that's coming out live like a guide dog, because one of the most important things is dogs live in the moment. Dogs don't do what is. And it's something that I learned after September 11. When we were concerned about how all of that would affect Roselle, I talked with the guide dog trainers and they said, did anything affect her directly? Did she get hit or anything? And I said no. And they said, well, then it's done. It's over for her. It's all gone. Wow. That's Wincham, which is so true. We we worry about all the things that we don't have any control over. We're afraid of so many things. And as is pointed out so often, none of those things ever come to pass. We just worry about things way too much.

Dr. Susan Lovelle 1:04:03Yes, yes. I think there's a saying this is where he is just praying for things you don't want. Yeah.

Michael Hingson 1:04:10Yeah, absolutely true. Well, this has been really fun. I've enjoyed it. I hope you have if people want to reach out and find you how do they do that? Oh, boy. Well, let me go ahead and answer that. And then I have one more question.

1:04:26So that actually leads into what I was saying. I was gonna mention before why we switched our name. That's what I was just gonna ask you Yeah, we're in the process of switching our day from premier wellness to balanced performance. And the reason was premier wellness is we thought kind of generic and speaking about wellness and it was a good thing and loved it had been that for six years. But what we found people are really looking for they want the balance in their lives, and they want to be able to perform they want to be at the top of their game. both at work, but they also want to be, I call them the superheroes at home, you know, they want to have both, but they want it with balance. And so we have literally literally in the process of changing the name of our company to balanced performance, because that's what we're going to teach you or help you and assist you to get to. So by the time this comes out, which will be mid January, we will be balanced performance dot Pro, as in balanced performance professionals. And that's where you'll be able to find us.

Michael Hingson 1:05:34Wow, so people can go to balance performance dot Pro. Correct. And are you on things like LinkedIn and so on where they can find you or I

Dr. Susan Lovelle 1:05:43am on LinkedIn. I'm Dr. Susan Lovelle on LinkedIn. L O V E. L L E. Okay. Dr. Susan Lovelle Dr. Susan Lovelle, we're on Facebook, it is still premier wellness. Probably by then that will also be switched over. Well, I'll give you the info. And we're on Instagram as well. And that's pretty rare wellness underscore at this point. Yeah. Well,

Michael Hingson 1:06:11thank you very much. I hope people listen and they'll reach out to you do you work with clients all over? We

Dr. Susan Lovelle 1:06:18work all over if they're out of this state out of North Carolina. I can work either as just a simple consultant. Or if they want to work with me one on one as me being their lifestyle physician, they would have to meet me details. They would have to meet me at least once in North Carolina or meet once in person. And then we can do the rest virtually. Cool. Yep.

Michael Hingson 1:06:41Well, every one, there you go. So meet up with Dr. Susan, I think it would be a lot of fun. And I've enjoyed very much and value very much all the insights that you brought us. So thank you for being here. And I want to thank you for listening. Hope that you enjoyed this. I'd love to hear from you. Please email me your thoughts, your observations, your comments. You can reach me at Michaelhi, m i c h a e l h i at accessibe A c c e s s i b e.com. Or go to our podcast page www dot Michael hingson.com/podcast. And Michael hingson is m i c h a e l h i n g s o n all one word. So wherever you're listening, please give us a five star rating. We value the ratings. We love them. And we love hearing your thoughts and your feedback as you're getting ready. So please do that. In wherever you're listening. We really appreciate it. And I'm sure Dr. Susan does as well. And and again, one more time. Susan, we really appreciate you being here. And thank you very much for your time.

Michael Hingson 1:07:42Thank you so much, Mike.

Michael Hingson 1:07:49You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visitwww.accessibe.com. AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

View Details

Katherine, (Kat), Magnoli grew up in New York and definitely has an unstoppable New York attitude. At birth it was discovered that Kat was born with Spinal Bifida. As a result, she is a paraplegic and uses a wheelchair. Unlike many, Kat’s parents fully embraced Kat and the many gifts she has exhibited over her 39 years thus far.

In grammar school Kat experienced a number of bullying events, but worked through them with the help of her parents. Those childhood experiences and others Kat will describe shaped her decision to advocate for persons, especially children, with disabilities. She works a great deal to advocate on behalf of children with autism.

As we learn during our conversation, we share in our own ways many similar experiences especially concerning how people react to disabilities. Also, both of us are authors. I leave it to Kat to tell you about her books which you can procure.

If all her advocacy and writing work aren’t enough, Katherine is Miss Wheelchair Florida for 2017. Is that cool or what?

I believe you will enjoy our conversation during this episode and I hope you come away with a deeper understanding about disabilities on all levels.

About the Guest:

Katherine Magnoli is an inclusion advocate. She began her journey of advocacy by writing and publishing Children Adventure Books about a super hero in a wheelchair . Her books are titled The Adventures of KatGirl. Over the years, Katherine has read her stories to thousands of children.

Since then, Katherine has expanded her advocacy by participating and being the title holder of Ms. Wheelchair Florida 2017. During her time Katherine developed the Abilities Program, whose activities were used during Disability Awareness Month and Inclusion Week in 2018. She, also, created beach access in Sunny Isles Beach, Bal Harbour and Surfside.

After this, she joined Miami Inclusion Alliance to help bring awareness to the epidemic of Abuse against People with Disabilities.

In 2021, she was awarded the Idelio Valdez Advocacy and Leadership Award by the Florida Developmental Disability Council and became the representative of District 11 for the Commission of Disabilities Issues Board. Which, she is now the secretary, as well.

In addition, Katherine is the Founder, and President, of KatGirl and Friends Inc. It helps educate children about inclusion through her book series.

Finally, Katherine has recently begun disability etiquette training and has had the privilege of training students at University Level and prestigious Organizations such as American Civil Liberties Union.

Katherine is currently very active on social media helping educate the masses on inclusion of people with disabilities.

In the near future; Katherine will take part in the Family Cafe in Orlando, Miami Dade County’s ADA Celebration and will be a virtual panelist for the Space Coastal Progressive Alliance to discuss issues pertaining to services for people with disabilities.

Ways to connect with Kat:

https://katgirlandfriends.com/

About the Host:Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.

Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children’s Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association’s 2012 Hero Dog Awards.

https://michaelhingson.comhttps://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/https://twitter.com/mhingsonhttps://www.youtube.com/user/mhingsonhttps://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/

accessiBe Linkshttps://accessibe.com/https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBehttps://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/

https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/

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Transcription Notes

Michael Hingson 00:00Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visitwww.accessibe.comto learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.

Michael Hingson 01:20Well, hi and welcome once again to unstoppable mindset. Today, I get to have the honor of chatting with an author and a person who was Miss wheelchair in 2017. I've never met a miss wheelchair before, although my wife of 40 years was always in a wheelchair. So wheelchairs are not new to me. But a miss wheelchair is a new experience and an author. I have written books and love to talk to people who are authors and Kat Magnoli is definitely an advocate and a very prolific person in a lot of different ways. And we're gonna get to all of that. So Kat or Katherine, whichever you prefer, whoever you are. Welcome to unstoppable mindset.

Kat Magnoli 02:05Thank you so much, Michael, for having me today. This is such an honor to be with you. And let's get it started as you'd like.

Michael Hingson 02:15Well, we got introduced by Sheldon Lewis who also like I do works at accessiBe. And Sheldon had was interviewed on our podcast a long time ago. Well, we had a great conversation. And he's been kind enough to tell us about other people like you ever since. So, well. Let's start. Tell me a little bit about the early Katherine growing up or the early cat growing up, you know, a child and some of the early the early stuff about cat we should know.

Kat Magnoli 02:44Okay, well, first off, I am the youngest of seven children. I'm the only person in my family with a disability. And that was an interesting way to grow up. Because, you know, I was kind of sheltered. My parents were both very protective of me. But my siblings, you know, they never treated me as if I was in a wheelchair growing up, they always wanted me to be a part of the games that they were playing. And they made sure that they adapted it to my needs. They never were like, oh, you can't do this, you know. And so I felt very accepted in that way. And I also at the time, was going to a school just for children with disabilities. So I really never experienced at a young age, you know, any form of bullying or discrimination or anything like that. That is until I was eight years old. And I was put into the public school district in a small town in New York called Yorktown Heights. And they, you know, I was the only person with a disability throughout all my schooling. And that was when I really got to see how people without a disability, treated those with a treated those of us with a disability. I went through a lot of bullying, a lot of ostracizing a lot of, you know, oh, you're a liability. So you can't come on this class trip. Or you can't come on the camping trip or not being invited to birthday parties. actually remember this one story that you know, my neighbor had a birthday party, and it's a pool party and I wasn't invited. And she was in my class. And all my classmates were there and so they actually saw that I live next door and they walked over to my house. And the mother of the little girl was like What's going on? Like, Why did everyone leave? And my mom was like, Well, you didn't invite my daughter. So now her classmates are coming to say hello. And the mother tried to fix the situation by inviting me. And my mom was like, No, like you're not going. So that's one of the stories that I like to tell because it shows how great of a mom I have. And speaking of my mom, I just want to tell you this one other story about her. You know, as I said, I grew up in a large family, and I was the only one with a disability in my family. And I asked her why that was. And she told me this beautiful story about the spine being like a magical tree. And she told me that it had these little magical leaves called nerves that help you move your arms and legs, and I'm missing some of my magical leaves. But then she went on to say that even though I can't walk, that I can do anything else that I put my mind to. So that just gives you a little bit of a glimpse of the good and the bad of my earlier years. So

Michael Hingson 06:13to skip around a little bit. Oh, I don't know how long ago. How long ago was that? Roughly? That may be giving away your age, but I'll ask anyway.

Kat Magnoli 06:24How long ago was which one? Well,

Michael Hingson 06:29so sorry. So let me do it this way. How old are you?

Kat Magnoli 06:34I am 39 years. Okay.

Michael Hingson 06:37Okay, great. Yeah, so, so now, so the birthday party and all that stuff took place? Roughly 30 years ago,

Kat Magnoli 06:45about 30 years ago. Okay. So here's, here's

Michael Hingson 06:49the question. Do you think that that kind of behavior would still be exhibited today?

Kat Magnoli 07:00Um, I can't speak for all parents. So I don't know. But I can say this. I think that there's a really wonderful movement going on in society, where the media, and literature and all that is really starting to embrace the disability community more than they did, let's say, 30 years ago? No, I think that there's more education about the disability community out there. And I think that that's helping make bullying maybe less, hopefully, I mean, I don't know, I can't really say, Yeah,

Michael Hingson 07:45you know, I think things from my perspective, I think things are better, but, and the but is that it's all about education. And there are a lot of people who still really haven't decided that disabilities are not something that makes us less than they are. And so it does depend on the individual. I think that there has been some progress. But we have, I think, a long way to go. Yes, I agree. And so that's something that we we have to work on. I know that as a person who is blind, I continue to see lots of challenges. And I think that the reality is that we emphasize eyesight, so much in our lives, that we view people who, who don't have eyesight, or whose eyesight is less than perfect. We view those people as less than we are, we still haven't dropped the expression visually impaired. And that's got so many negative connotations, because visually, we're not different, because we're blind. But the professionals adopted that long time ago. And we continue to see impaired, well, we're not impaired, you know, you're not mobility impaired, you use a wheelchair, you're in a wheelchair. But as your mom pointed out, that doesn't make you impaired or less than anyone else. Because while you can't walk, there are short people who can't do the things that taller people can do. And even tall people can't necessarily do all the things in the same easy way that some short people can do because they have to fit into smaller places sometimes, or whatever the case happens to be. And what we don't really understand is that disability is not a lack of ability, but rather it's a characteristic. And we all have it in one way or another.

Kat Magnoli 09:39I am 100% on board with what you're saying. And another thing that I like to reiterate, it's kind of in the same sense of what you're saying is that the disability community is actually a community that anyone can join at any time because someone can wake up and they can be blind or someone can wake up and get into an accident, and then be in a wheelchair or someone can go dead, you know, maybe listening to too much loud music throughout their life, whatever the case may be it or just like a gradual thing that happens as you get older, you know. And so it's it's not something that's so taboo as maybe society has made it out to be throughout the years, because it really is like the most common thing that it's it's the only minority that anyone can join, you know?

Michael Hingson 10:39Yeah. Well, and I would submit actually, something slightly different. I agree with you. But what I also would say is that the reality is, every person with eyesight has a disability. And I've talked about it on this podcast before, the issue is that in 1878, Thomas Edison invented the electric light bulb. While Why did he do that? He did that so that people with eyesight would have light on demand and would be able to function when it would otherwise be dark at night, or whatever. And so over the years, we've put so much emphasis on developing the technology, that light is around us pretty much all the time. But the but the other part about it is until it's not like if you're in a building, and there's a power failure, you have to go scrambling whoever you are for a phone or a flashlight or something to turn on the light. And if you can't find one, you're in a generally a world of hurt, because of the fact that it's dark, and you can't see what to do. So every sighted person has the disability of being light dependent, whether they like it or not. And technology has mostly covered it up. But it doesn't change the fact that the disability is still there. We just as a society don't like to acknowledge that, because light is so readily available most of the time.

Kat Magnoli 12:04That is fascinating. I never really even thought of that. I definitely got Wow, that's amazing. See, that proves my point that you don't even have to go through an accident or anything that I just mentioned, like, just take away. Something that helps you enhance that sense. And that sense is no longer there. So it's really interesting what you just said, I'm fascinated by it,

Michael Hingson 12:37we've got to get to the point where we recognize that disability does not mean a lack of ability. You know, people say well, but disability starts with this well, so does discretion. So it is it mean, a lack of question, whatever that is, or, you know, any number of things just doesn't need to be a negative term. And we've got to grow up to recognize that as a as a society, I understand that people with eyesight do have advantages, in some ways, because the world is being created around what they have access to that a lot of us don't, but that doesn't mean that we're less than they, whether it's a wheelchair or whatever,

Kat Magnoli 13:19of course, of course, 100%. And actually, just to keep going on this topic for a second, I read an amazing book called no pity. I don't know if you've ever heard of it.

Michael Hingson 13:32I haven't. But that's okay, go here. One of the things

Kat Magnoli 13:36that they stress in the story, and it's not only a story, it's actually like a it's a book that talks about the entire history of the disability rights movement. And one of the things that they stressed in it is that disability no longer exists when you make things accessible to us. So for example, me, if, if there's a ramp, and there's a button for the door, I no longer have a disability because I can get into any building, if those things make it accessible for me. For for instance, for you, if there's Braille, your disability goes away, because you're able to understand and communicate in a in a better way by being able to read, you know, the bumps, and the Braille signage. So you can know where to go in a building, let's say like the elevator. And so I think that that's a really cool concept that disability is kind of like perception only because if you make the world more accessible, then no one really has a disability. That's the flip side of it all. And

Michael Hingson 15:02that's the real point. Right? Yeah. Yeah. And that's and that's that way. So are you, quadriplegic or paraplegic? paraplegic? So So you see, you can hit people upside the head if they start getting too and setting them up people with disabilities write to you.

Kat Magnoli 15:23I tried to be very nice and to educate first. Yeah. But if they don't listen, then I might have to run over a tower to my

Michael Hingson 15:33wife, when sometimes we've gone to places even like Disneyland, although it's been a while. Got so very frustrated, because being in a chair, and she also was a para. We could be talking and sitting somewhere or just walking along and people just jump over the foot rests rather than having the consideration to walk around. Because they're in such a hurry to get somewhere. People are people are amazing.

Kat Magnoli 16:00Yeah, yeah, I that's one of my biggest pet peeves. Another one is people just wheeling me up a ramp, like as I'm wheeling, and then someone of total stranger will come up behind me and think that they're doing a kind gesture. Yeah. And you start pushing me up the ramp, and it's scary, it startles me, you know, it scares me. So I always flip it out, you know, to the other side, where I'm like, How would someone feel if I just like started pushing them on their backside, and like toiling them to essentially walk faster, you know, like, that's not very nice, I wouldn't be able to do that I'd probably get arrested if I did that. Because you can't just put your hands on someone's backside and start busting them. So it's the same concept, people think that they're doing something nice, or that they're, you know, you know, not bothering us by like asking us to move over or whatever, I'd rather you say, excuse me, then push me or jump over me. You know, I'd rather you acknowledge me and be like, Excuse me, I need to get through, like, find a way to do it? Or

Michael Hingson 17:13do you need help? I'd be glad to push you up the ramp if you would like I mean, but the point is to ask

Kat Magnoli 17:19exactly the point is to ask, it's really not that hard. No,

Michael Hingson 17:24it's not that hard at all. So I'm curious. What do you think of the truncated domes, all the dots that go across driveways, and so on to warn people when you're at the bottom of a ramp or, or going into a street? They've put those out saying blind people need to have those warnings and so on? What do you think of that as a person in a wheelchair?

Kat Magnoli 17:53Well, let me say this, if it is good for people with blindness, then I think it's necessary. However, for a person with a disability. Again, it can be kind of a hazard almost, I will say, because, let's say one of my wheels, you know, gets stuck in between one of the bumps, I could fall forward, if it's a quarterly made structure, you know, I could fall forward. So for me, it can sometimes be a hazard. And it has been in the past. However, if it's good for people with blindness, then I'm all for it. And I'm accepting of it. And that's all that I'm gonna say about it.

Michael Hingson 18:40The the place where it becomes valuable is not so much on ramps, or even in train stations, because if a blind person is using a cane properly, they'll be able to detect the edge of a train well of a train track or if the tracks are dropped down, like in a lot of subway stations or whatever. The the comment is where you have to have it so blind people know that they're coming to the edge. That's what the cane does. Although a lot of people don't necessarily use their canes well, so the compromise was to put those those dots in, but I know my wife hated them because it just shook her violently every time we went over them.

Kat Magnoli 19:30Yeah, I definitely have noticed with my friends who have spinal cord injury that tend to have spasms below the waist, that it does trigger, you know, well for her more shook her neck and very sad and you know, yeah, well, it's

Michael Hingson 19:48it's it's one of those things that that there are places where where they can help if you've got a very flat curb, not even a curb cut or a ramp but you It's such a gradual ramp down that you don't really notice it and the curb is, or the entrance to the street is flat so that you don't really have a noticeable demarcation between the sidewalk and the street. There is a place where it's relevant to put something but yeah, it's it's interesting, everyone has different challenges and some people love the the dots, and some people don't. And it's always a matter of trying to figure out the best way to make it as accessible and usable by the most or by most everyone and people have to adopt and adapt to different ways of doing stuff.

Kat Magnoli 20:40Well, I'm actually going to flip the question and ask you something now if that's okay.

Michael Hingson 20:47Oh, sure. This is a conversation.

Kat Magnoli 20:51What is your opinion about ramps as a person who's blind? Does it hinder you or help you in any kind of way, not affect you at all? Well,

Michael Hingson 21:02if it's a ramp, that's why I'm mentioned the very flat curbs. So from from my perspective, I can go either way ramps or stairs. However, it is my belief that ramps are very important. So I don't mind at all having ramps, but I don't believe that ramps enhance my ability to walk around. Because I'll use a cane or a guide dog and I will go where I need to go. And if there's a ramp, it's fine. If there are stairs, that's fine. And I realized that stairs generally take up less room than ramps. But having been married to a lady in a wheelchair for 40 years, I totally value ramps and have never had a problem with ramps so ramps don't bother me at all.

Kat Magnoli 21:53Okay, that's interesting.

Michael Hingson 21:57So on I am a firm believer that that ramps need to be available not just in the back of a building or whatever, but they should be readily available. So that people in chairs are people who need ramps. people with strollers just older people can walk in the front entrance of a building just as easily as I can. Even though I can walk up the stairs, so I'm fine with ramps.

Kat Magnoli 22:27Okay, well, thank you. That's, that's very interesting to hear.

Michael Hingson 22:31So it is kind of one of the things that that we we all do deal with. But I think I'm what I'm really surprised that is and we watched. We watched my wife passed away last November. So it's just me now. But as I tell people, she's up there somewhere. And if I misbehave, I'm going to hear about it. So I gotta be a nice guy.

Kat Magnoli 22:56Well, I'm so sorry for your loss.

Michael Hingson 22:58Well, it's been 40 years. And as I say, the spirit sometimes moves faster than the body and her body just finally kind of gave out and it is what we have to deal with. But, you know, the, the other the other side of that is that, you know, I learned a lot from her and having 40 years of memories and marriages is a good thing. And it it helped broaden perspectives in a lot of different ways. So I certainly have no complaints about it.

Kat Magnoli 23:33That is so beautiful. Oh my goodness, you're gonna make me cry.

Michael Hingson 23:39Well, like I said, she's somewhere and if I misbehave, I'm going to hear about it. So I will, I will continue to just be a decent person and behave well.

Kat Magnoli 23:50That's all. That's all that all of us can do.

Michael Hingson 23:54Yeah, that's about all there is right? That's all we can do. Yeah. So tell me a little bit more about you. You grew up did you go to college? Yes,

Kat Magnoli 24:06I did. I actually got my AAA degree. My associate's in arts degree for exceptional student education. I really wanted to be a teacher for children with disabilities. However due to my health that ended up not being the case. But I still have my degree which is great.

Michael Hingson 24:35What do you think of the the terminology Exceptional Children?

Kat Magnoli 24:41Um, I think a lot of the time we spend too much time nitpicking. Yeah. At terminology. I think whatever a person is comfortable with is very like subjective. Like there are some people that don't like People First language they don't like the term, people with disabilities, they like, disabled

Michael Hingson 25:07disabled person.

Kat Magnoli 25:08I personally do not I like people first language, I want to be seen as a person that has a disability. So I think it's just all it's very subjective. It's however you feel. But, you know, the school district felt like it was a better transition to go from special ed, or special education, to exceptional student education.

Michael Hingson 25:37And, you know, the only thing I would say about that is that, and I agree with you about People First, by the way, but I also think that we have to look at terminology in the light of what is it conveyed to people about us, like I mentioned, visually impaired. The fact of the matter is that continues to promote the concept that we're less. So a much better term such as like, happens with people who are deaf, it's not deaf or hearing impaired, it's deaf or hard of hearing, and that is what the deaf community likes, with good reason. And so, visually impaired isn't nearly as progressive and as helpful attitudinally and socially as blind or low vision. And so I think there is some relevance to recognizing that terminology can be part of the problem, rather than always being part of the solution.

Kat Magnoli 26:40I 100% agree. And that's why I think that as a person within the community, when someone approaches you, whether it's you or AI, it's our obligation to educate them and let them know how we want to be referred to. Because again, there might be some people in your community that don't mind the term visually impaired. Maybe that's how they refer to themselves. There are and there are. And so I again, I think it's really about how we educate others on how we want to be addressed. Well,

Michael Hingson 27:22that's part of it. And the other part is, and I've had discussions with some people say, I don't I find visually impaired, I'm impaired, I'm visually impaired, until they think it through, or until somebody talks with him about it. And gets them to really explore what they're saying, when they say impaired, for example. And that's part of it. And so in the blindness world, we haven't grown up yet, nearly as much as, say, people who are deaf have in terms of not being hearing impaired, but rather hard of hearing. So the fact is there there are people who are blind, and I've had discussions with them who say, No, I'm visually impaired, and I point out the issue. And if I get them to think about it, they usually come back and say, I never thought about it that way. Just like we talked about earlier, every person on this planet has a disability. And the fact is that most people are light dependent. And that's his disability, too.

Kat Magnoli 28:30That's so true. Yeah. And actually, it's interesting, because a few years ago, I had the privilege of making friends with a man named Daniel Ruis, who is a big advocate for the ADEA, which is, for all of you that might not know is the Americans with Disabilities Act law. And so he makes places accessible, so on and so on. And one day, we got into a discussion about the word handicap. And I never knew what that term actually means. And I don't know if you know, either. Maybe you do. But for all your listeners, I just want to say that handicap actually means hand in cat, which was, which is a symbol of saying that people with disabilities are needy, and we're beggars and we're, you know, it's just it has such a horrible connotation to it. So that's one term that I will not accept to be called. Whenever someone says, like, oh, handicap parking, I'm like, No, it's accessible parking. You know, like I make that's the only thing that I'm like a stickler on, is handicap and also crippled. I don't like the term cripples. I think that that is something that degrades me. Again, I go by people first language and that just really is, you know, the case for me.

Michael Hingson 29:57Well, and I think it's a matter of of really people just accepting that we're as equal as they. And unfortunately, though some of the language doesn't necessarily imply that and that's what we really have to deal with, which is why anything that utilizes the word impaired is a problem. But people have to grow to deal with that in their own way. And that's something that we just will have to work on over time. And hopefully, people will come to recognize it is a problem, just like when we talk about race. You know, we talk about African Americans or our people who are black, as opposed to other terminology that nowadays, it is frowned upon to say that, in most cases, although black people sometimes use that terminology amongst themselves, but by the same token, we need to recognize that there are words that promote negative and less than stellar attitudes in a lot of different ways. So it's, it's a challenge. Well,

Kat Magnoli 31:11going back to something I had said earlier, when you asked me Do I think that the same kind of incident would happen now in relation to you know, how I grew up? I think the more and more we are exposed in the media, in a positive light, through books, through movies, through TV, through songs, whatever the case may be, I think, through politics, I think that the world will kind of shift its perception, the more they see what we can do.

Michael Hingson 31:49I agree. We need to be more involved in the conversation. And I think more people need to help bring us into the conversation and talk about us or talk with us. And it's a slow process, because changing a societal attitude like that is is not a simple thing. And is a is a challenge for a lot of people because they've grown up thinking something totally different. And now we're saying no, you really need to change that. That just doesn't happen overnight.

Kat Magnoli 32:24Yeah, it's interesting when Coda won in the, in the Oscars, I asked my friend, same as Mark McGwire. how he felt about it, because he's a person living with deafness. And he was like, so I didn't win. He's like, I don't care. I thought it was like such a tremendous thing. The disability community and someone living with deafness was like, okay, you know, like, he didn't acknowledge it as like this huge thing as maybe I did. Well, but

Michael Hingson 33:03I spoke. First thing, I spoke at a conference later that same year, a conference on inclusion here in California for one of the county departments of education, and had occasion to interact with several people who are very active in the deaf community. And of course, needless to say, they loved it. So, yeah, it's different for different people. Yeah, exactly. So you got an AAA degree, and then what did you go off and do with yourself.

Kat Magnoli 33:34And then, like I mentioned, my, my health kind of took a turn for the worse that I had developed kidney failure and was on dialysis. And this was actually during the time that I was still going to school. So when you're studying to be a teacher, you have to do what's called clinical hours, which means that you go into a school and you kind of shadow the teacher, and you learn from her by interacting with the kids grading papers, doing things like that. And one of the places that I did this was at a school called cacher LD, which is a school for children within the autism spectrum, and other learning disabilities. And that's really what inspired me to become an advocate because one thing that I didn't mention earlier is that with all the bullying that I had endured at a young age, it kind of actually depleted the message of the magical tree for me, and made me feel like maybe there is something wrong with me. So when I got the chance to be around these kids with disabilities, and really see their inner strength and see how amazing they were, it helped me re accept my own disability at the age of 2420. 85 So that's when I started to think, Okay, if this teaching thing is not going to happen for me, because, you know, my health is not allowing me to dedicate the time that's needed for this, how else can I help the disability community? So one day, I'm sitting in a pool, and I'm noticing that there's two children who are quote, unquote, able bodied or non disabled, whatever term you like. And they were staring at me, they were trying to figure out how I got in the pool for my wheelchair. And one of the kids actually said that he felt sorry for me. I was so sad that he would feel sorry for me that it dawned on me how I could help be an advocate. And I thought, like, after much thinking, I was like, I want to educate children about disability, because they're the ones most curious about it. So how do I do this? And then I thought about something that I've always loved to do, which is write. And that's when I decided to write a children's book called The Adventures of cat girl, which is about a superhero in a wheelchair, and she helps kids who are being bullied. And

Michael Hingson 36:21you've written several books now happened to as I recall, yes,

Kat Magnoli 36:25there are four stories in the cat girl series, they each touch on a different kind of bullying. So we have bullying, children and wheelchairs, bullying children who are deaths, bullying children who are overweight and racial bullying. Those are the four topics that I cover in my cat girl series. And then I have another story called Pete, the private eye, who's actually a blind detective, and he uses his magical cane to help him solve mysteries of lost objects.

Michael Hingson 37:03Hmm. Well, you know, all I have to say is that if you ever decide to do a picture book on the disability of politicians, don't worry, they deserve bullying. Just just I love that I love to tell people, I'm an equal opportunity abuser. We don't do politics on unstoppable mindset, because I'll pick on all of them. And rightfully so. But you know, but that's your voice, especially now is right. So do you, do you self publish? Or did you self publish? Or do you have a publisher for the books.

Kat Magnoli 37:44So when it came to the adventures of cat girl series, I went through my grandparents, who at the time had owned an educational toy business called Dexter educational toys. And when I came to them with this idea of my book series, my grandfather was a little hesitant. But my grandmother jumped on the idea. And she really, you know, used her resources of a printing company that she was in affiliation was to help publish the book. And with Pete, the private eye, I used another company called Print ninja, they're in China. And they do a fabulous job with printing as well.

Michael Hingson 38:38That's great. Do you have any other books coming out in the future?

Kat Magnoli 38:44I hope so. I do have a lot of ideas. I have some crossover stories of cat girl and Pete, that I really would love to, you know, have them meet in this story and work together and use both her magical wheelchair and his magic cane. And just kind of have fun, you know? Maybe finding loss items for bullies.

Michael Hingson 39:09Well, there you go.

Kat Magnoli 39:12That can be the crossover story.

Michael Hingson 39:16So you sent me several photos. I'm assuming some of those are the book covers.

Kat Magnoli 39:23Yes, I did send you one photo that has all four cat girl. book covers plus the cat girl puppet. Threes

Michael Hingson 39:35I ask is that all I see are titles that say like img something so I don't. I don't get a description. That's okay. But I'm glad you did because I would have asked you to send them if you hadn't. So that's great, because we want to make sure they get into the podcast notes and so on because I want other people to read the books needless to say, thank you. So that's kind of important to be able to do Who? But you know, so you've written them. So did you. So what did you do for a job along the way? Did you go into teaching? Did you start advocating? To to start your own company? What did you do?

Kat Magnoli 40:17Well, first and foremost, my number one passion is my book. So I've dedicated a lot of the time of my advocacy, to reading to children and selling my books to schools, and at different events throughout Florida, and in other states. And then from there, because I did still have a desire to be a teacher, I did some tutoring for about a year to through a girl that I knew named soudha that I had met in college. So I did get to do some teaching, later on in my advocacy. And then, you know, as I grew as an advocate, different organizations started to reach out to me to do work with them. So for a while, I was working at the Center for Independent Living. And then I worked a little bit for ShakeAlert. Miami, which is a wonderful organization that helps people get with disabilities get the chance to go sailing, and kayaking and canoeing. And so I have had some, like, odd jobs here and there, but all have to do with disability and advocacy in some way. But my main focus is my books and public speaking.

Michael Hingson 41:36You've definitely kept active. Yes.

Kat Magnoli 41:40So calls me the Energizer Bunny,

Michael Hingson 41:43that are you go? Well, so cat girl was in a wheelchair is in a wheelchair, right?

Kat Magnoli 41:50Yes, she is.

Michael Hingson 41:51So did you involve in any way in any of the books dealing with autism? I haven't you since you've had a lot of interest in that and exposure to it. I

Kat Magnoli 42:03have not had the chance to write a story about autism yet. I really want because the children that started my journey into advocacy to fall into the autism spectrum. I want to be as sensitive and correct with it as possible. So I want to do more research and make sure that I do that immunity, that justice that it deserves when I write about it.

Michael Hingson 42:34We've come a long way with autism. I know I've talked to several people on the podcast here who discovered that they were on this they say the Autism Autism Spectrum. But they discovered it in their 30s and in their 40s because we just didn't really know enough about it earlier on to recognize it and diagnose.

Kat Magnoli 42:56Yeah, yeah. And to be honest, you know, sometimes parents are hesitant, even if there are clear day signs, you know that their child is in the autism spectrum. Sometimes parents can be hesitant to get that diagnosis, and then the person will make that decision later on in life to finally get the test that helps them you know, be diagnosed, right?

Michael Hingson 43:30Or it just never came up. And they never no one ever thought about it. But yeah, it is a challenge. And I think that that's, uh, you bring up a good point in general that a lot of times, parents of children with disabilities don't really want to necessarily deal with it either. And it's mostly because they haven't themselves become educated. Your parents were fairly unusual. And same with mine. The doctors told them when it was discovered I was blind at the age of four months that they should just send me to a home and they said absolutely not. He can grow up to do whatever he chooses to do. But parents that are willing to really step out like that are much rarer than we would like to think sometimes.

Kat Magnoli 44:17You know, I've been beyond fortunate to have the mother that I have, and I am grateful for every single day of my life. Because my mother was unaware of my having Spinal Bifida. throughout her entire pregnancy. It did not show up on any ultrasound that she had had during the nine months that she was carrying me and so when I was born, that was the day that her my father had found out that I indeed had spinal bifida. And she always tells me the story because as I mentioned, I'm the youngest of seven So she would read a lot of medical books every time she was pregnant. And she always skipped over Spinal Bifida. It was like, Oh, that'll never happen. And when it did happen, she didn't feel sorry for herself. She immediately when she came home from the hospital, you know, started doing research started calling different organizations like, March of Dimes, and all these other organizations that can help her, you know, raise me in the best way that she could. So I'm just very, very fortunate to have a mother like I do. Yeah,

Michael Hingson 45:37she learned and she dealt with it. Which is, which is great. And presumably, she's still alive and, and helping. She's

Kat Magnoli 45:4872 years old, and she's the one who's truly the Energizer Bunny. She's unstoppable.

Michael Hingson 45:56Well, then we need to get her on the podcast. It's good to have unstoppable people on the podcast.

Kat Magnoli 46:01She's actually sitting right next to me, but she's shaking her head know that Oh, come

Michael Hingson 46:06on.

Kat Magnoli 46:10Can you just wave? Please?

Michael Hingson 46:12Nope, she's, well, I'm not gonna see your wave. So that's okay.

Kat Magnoli 46:18To everyone. Same way? Yeah.

Michael Hingson 46:21Well, it's neat to have a very supportive person. And that goes both ways. Because you give back and I'm sure help her and a lot of different ways. And just the very fact that you do what you do. Totally validates everything that she's done.

Kat Magnoli 46:40Yeah, yeah, I actually just recently got a proclamation from Palmetto Bay, which is a neighboring town from Sunny Isles Beach. And they gave me a proclamation to honor Spinal Bifida Awareness Month, which is within the month of October, and my entire speech was dedicated to my mom, pretty much. I mean, I spoke for like four minutes, and three and a half of it was all about how wonderful she is.

Michael Hingson 47:17And rightfully so no matter what she thinks or says. I agree. Like I said, moms who are and parents in general, who are that much risk takers are very rare in, at least in my experience, and from everything I've observed. So it's great to have that kind of really wonderful person in your life. So that's great. Now did even though you don't you haven't dealt with an autism an autistic person yet, in your books? Did they have some involvement in inspiring you to write the books, they

Kat Magnoli 47:59were 100% the inspiration because while I was having the privilege to teach them, I saw how they were able to handle episodes of bullying far better than I did when I was a child. And it just was so inspiring to me. And I was like, wow, they have a strange that I did not have at 910 11 and 12 years old. And so it just really, it really did inspire me a lot. And they were part of the reason other than the two children in the, in the pool that had the curiosity about me. If I'd put it all together, it was like, a melting pot of inspiration for me, of why I wrote the adventures of capital.

Michael Hingson 48:47I was at an IKEA store in California, once in a young man came up and said, I'm sorry. And I said, why? And he said, because you can't see. So I've experienced the same sort of thing that you did. And we could we didn't get to have much of a discussion about it because his mother dragged him away. Don't don't talk to that man. You know, you shouldn't do that. And people miss out on great education opportunities. Sometimes. Needless to say,

Kat Magnoli 49:13yeah, yeah. And that's another thing that I really try to stress to parents that it's okay for your child to talk to me. It's okay. For them to ask what happened? It doesn't offend me if anything, them staring and the parent pulling them away is what offends me. Yeah, that that hurts my feelings more so then the child's coming up to me and asking me about my chair, you know, and asking me what happened. I would much rather that and so I've actually gotten into the habit of Do you mind like asking the parents do you mind if I tell your daughter or your son what happened? They seem to be Interested in my chair? Yeah.

Michael Hingson 50:04And, you know, I, I experienced a lot of that or, and sometimes actually promote it to get conversation started. A lot of times I'll be walking somewhere with, with my guide dog and parents say oh, don't, don't, don't go up to that man, the dog might bite you and all that, and I'll stop. And I'll almost block their way and said, let me let me talk to you about what guide dogs are. And then I'll also take the harness off, which is the thing that the dogs love the most, because then they know they're not working. And the last thing they want to do is to avoid getting attention, especially from kids. So we get lots of opportunities. And when I go to speak to schools, it's always fun after the speech to take the harness off and let the kids come up. And the dogs have figured out that if they lay down and stretch out every which way they can, as far as they can, and maximize petting space, they'll get more kids to pay attention to them, and they love it.

Kat Magnoli 51:06Oh, that's so cool. Yeah, they,

Michael Hingson 51:09they enjoy it a lot. So it's fun to do. That's wonderful. So do you know you've you've started your own organizations to help with advocacy, right?

Kat Magnoli 51:23Yes, I, within the last two and a half years started, capital and friends Inc. It is a 501 C three that just helps educate people about the importance of inclusion through literature and my public speaking. And it just gives me a chance to reach a larger audience.

Michael Hingson 51:48How far have you traveled to be involved in doing speeches and do public speaking,

Kat Magnoli 51:52I actually went to the American Association school for children who are deaf. And that was in Atlanta. And it was really, really amazing. It was such an incredible experience. All the kids were signing their questions to me, which unfortunately, I don't know, sign language. So there was an interpreter there. But it was just such an amazing experience that I never forget that and I'm so grateful to have done. And I also got to go to New York where unfortunately, I couldn't be at the school because it was during like COVID regulations still. But I did a zoom session for a school in the district that I grew up in, which is Putnam Valley School District. So that was really cool to be able to do. And I've actually done that two times since then, where I've done zoom sessions for them. So I've been able to reach different schools in different states as well as make a pretty good impact in in my community as well. Well,

Michael Hingson 53:14it's, I think, extremely important for us to recognize that one of the best things that we can do is to help teach and educate and I didn't tell you this, but when I was in college, I also went through the University of California, Irvine. College of teaching, so I have my secondary teaching credential as well. So I, I never did teach professionally as a teacher in that sense of the word. But I ended up being very involved in sales. And I believe that that the best salespeople are also teachers as well, because that's what they should really be doing. Rather than trying to force a product on someone, they should be educating people, and helping them come to the best decision for whatever they need. And that's a philosophy that has worked really well. But I love teaching and after September 11. For me, I decided to take up a career of speaking and so on, because if I could help people move on from September 11 and teach them about blindness and disabilities and such then it was a worthwhile thing. And if it changes one person is all worthwhile.

Kat Magnoli 54:25That's such an amazing advice and an amazing perspective. And I could not agree more. I mean, when I first started this, I was like, You know what, I want the whole crowd to hang on my every word. Now it's not so much like that. For me. I just get so excited when I can lock eyes with one child, or one person in the crowd and I know that they're really paying attention and they're really being impacted by either my the stories that I've written or my personal story, whatever is resonating with them is, is so important to me.

Michael Hingson 55:07What's the most interesting question that any child has asked you when you've spoken like that? Um, we all have those stories, I'm sure.

Kat Magnoli 55:21I feel like they ask the same questions over and over again, no matter where I am, which is always, how do you get up in the bed? Like, out of bed in the morning? How do you brush your teeth? How do you take a shower? How do you get in and out of the car? How do you do these things? And I'm just so those kinds of questions I find to be the most fun to answer. The one that I think is so important. Let me rephrase that, because those are important questions to answer as well, because it's educating people about my daily life and how I get around from point A to point B. But the the subject matter that I find to be most interesting when they talk about it is when they start talking about episodes of bullying that they went through, and then we can start opening up that conversation. So yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Michael Hingson 56:23Well, and and it's fun. I love speaking to children, because they are uninhibited. And they don't hesitate to ask questions. Once you start getting them engaged at all, they will, they will ask anything. And if we can have a session and the parents aren't around, it really works out a whole lot better, because they will, they will become engaged and they'll ask questions I remember. And I've talked about it here a couple of times, I spoke to a, an elementary school. And this third grade boy got up after I spoke, because I opened it for questions. And his question was, how do blind people have sex? So there you go.

Kat Magnoli 57:11I have not been asked that by a child. But I have been asked by adults. Yeah. wanted to take me out on dates.

Michael Hingson 57:20Well, there you go. Opportunity Knocks Well, for me when he asked that I am not dumb, right. I just said

Kat Magnoli 57:28for the background noise.

Michael Hingson 57:29That's okay. I I'm not done when I was asked that. I just said the same way everybody else does. And if you want to know more, go ask your parents because I wasn't going to get into that.

Kat Magnoli 57:39Yes, that is a very smart answer.

Michael Hingson 57:45But for as far as you you know, two guys wanted to take you out on on dates. There's opportunity, maybe? Yeah,

Kat Magnoli 57:51I mean, when this was mostly in my 20s, where people wouldn't even ask my name before they asked, Can you have sex? I mean, I just was like, Hi, my name is Katherine. And yes, I can.

Michael Hingson 58:09Yeah. And if you want to know more, that's a different story. Zach. Ah, people are interesting, aren't they? Yes. But you know, we we cope. And we, we learn. And hopefully we do get to help teach them. And that's what's really important about the whole thing. So tell me about winning Miss wheelchair Florida.

Kat Magnoli 58:38It was really amazing. It was actually a funny story. Because I had been in the top three, two times before, I had gotten second runner up and first runner up. So the third year, I actually wasn't going to participate. I was like, okay, clearly, I'm not going to win. I'm just going to take a break from this. But the state coordinator actually reached out to me like a day before the application was due to be a contestant. And she was like, Why haven't I received your application? I'm like, oh, because I'm not doing it this year. She's like, Yes, you are, you have to do it. So I was like, Alright, fine, I'll do it. But if I lose again, like I'm never doing it again. So So I ended up going and it's an amazing weekend, where girls with all different physical disabilities come together. And we do workshops. We do you know, judging with it's just so amazing. And so I was really happy to be a part of it again. But I went into it not thinking that I was going to win or place in the top three or anything like that. So I went in with a different perspective of just enjoying the moment And that's interesting because I ended up enjoying it so much that I ended up Miss messing up my speech. And so I really thought I wasn't going to win. So when they announced the, you know, second runner up and first runner up, and I wasn't called, I was like, Okay, I didn't make it even to the top three. So when they said my name, my mouth dropped, and I started crying for like, a good five minutes. And I was trying to speak because they handed me the microphone. And I honestly couldn't even tell you what I said, because I was that shocked for wedding. And before they said my name, I actually looked at my mom in the crowd, and I shook my head. No, it's not me. And at the same time, one of the judges was looking up at me. And she was shaking her head, like, yes, it is you. And I was just so confused as to why she was smiling and shaking her head. So it was just an interesting situation. And then when I did when I got to meet the governor, the former governor, Rick Scott, I got to work alongside the mayor of sunny isles and the mayor of ball Harbor, which is another town and get more beaches accessible in my area. I got to work with the school district, which is Miami Dade school district to have activities for Disability Awareness Month and inclusion week, I had a podcast so it was a really, really busy time for me. And it was a lot of fun. I also got to do a lot of adventurous things. Like go to I fly, which is indoor skydiving, and I got to, you know, just do some really memorable things.

Michael Hingson 1:01:56So did you do the indoor skydiving? Yes, I did. I would like to do that. I've never done it. I'm gonna have to go do it. Some I would love to do that. Yeah,

Kat Magnoli 1:02:05it's really, really cool. It's a very interesting simulation of what skydiving would be like.

Michael Hingson 1:02:13Yeah, I would like to do it sometime. I'll have to work that out. Well, so what's next for you? What are you doing? What are your plans? And where are you headed? What's your mindset in the world?

Kat Magnoli 1:02:26Well, currently, I am doing a lot of things. It is Disability Awareness Month and awareness month. So I've been making a lot of videos on social media just talking about basically what we're talking about right now, which is all that we can do. So that's number one. That's that's part of what I'm doing. I'm also doing a lot of different events for my books, to have more of an outreach for them. I am part of the Christopher Reeve Foundation where I'm a regional champion for them, which means that I speak to senators within my state about different laws that the Christopher Reeve Foundation is trying to get passed. So that's that's basically what I'm doing. I'm also in addition to it being Disability Awareness Month and Spinal Bifida Awareness Month, it's also Domestic Violence Awareness Month, which, for whoever does not know people with disabilities are three times as likely to be victims of any kind of abuse. So myself, along with my mentor, Debbie beets are going to be partnering for a workshop with the Christopher Reeve Foundation will end of October, where we're going to be talking about the intersectionality of abuse and disability. Wow.

Michael Hingson 1:03:59So you're definitely keeping busy no doubt about it.

Kat Magnoli 1:04:02Yes. Oh, and one last thing. I am working currently with semi owls beach to get even more beaches accessible in my town. So that's the last thing that I'm doing.

Michael Hingson 1:04:16Well, just one more thing, right? Yeah. Well, this has been a lot of fun if people want to reach out to you and maybe contact you learn more about what you're doing and so on. How can they do that?

Kat Magnoli 1:04:31They can actually reach me through my website, kat girl and friends.com

Michael Hingson 1:04:37Kat is k a t. Yes,

Kat Magnoli 1:04:39Kat is K a t girl is G I R L and is spelled just as we know A N D friends f r i e n d s.com.com

Michael Hingson 1:04:52Yeah, okay. Any other contact ways or things that people should know? They

Kat Magnoli 1:05:00can also just email me at Kat that's also K A T Magnoli, m a g n o l i@gmail.com.

Michael Hingson 1:05:13Wow, a Gmail address without any numbers in it. You must be the first one. Yeah, well, cat, this has been a lot of fun. And I want to just say right now that when you have more adventures and you have whenever you want to come back on and chat some more on unstoppable mindset, I would love to do it. So you just know you have an open invitation. We can talk about it at any time, but I really value you doing this and if you know of anyone else. And likewise, for any of you listening, if you know of anyone who we ought to have as a guest on unstoppable mindset. I'd love to hear about it. You can let me know Kat knows how to reach me but for all of you, just so you know, you can reach me at Michael M i c h a e l h i at accessibe A c c e s s i b e.com. Or go to our podcast page www dot Michael Hingson m i c h a e l h i n g s o n.com/podcast. And we'd love to hear from you love to hear what you think about the episode. And as I said, if you know of anyone that you think we ought to have as a guest, I definitely want to hear from you. We would appreciate you giving us a five star rating, we value your ratings very highly. And I really hope that you like the podcast enough to do that. So once once more, I want to thank you Kat for being here. I'm sorry, you were gonna say? No,

Kat Magnoli 1:06:38I was gonna say thank you so much for having me, this has been such an amazing conversation. And I can think of so many people that I know who are advocates that would really shine on your show, really have such incredible stories to share. So I will be reaching out to some of them and encouraging them to reach out to you. Because I think that we all should come together and work together and share stories. I think that's the real way to educate and and build inclusion for the for the world. Last question that I have, when will this be airing. Um, it's

Michael Hingson 1:07:21going to be a little while yet because we've got a number of podcasts that are out there, but we'll definitely be sending you an email, unless there's some need for you to to have it airing at a particular time. But it'll be a little while yet, but we'll keep you posted. Okay,

Kat Magnoli 1:07:37great. Thank you so much. And I hope you guys have a great night

Michael Hingson 1:07:46You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visitwww.accessibe.com. AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

View Details

Jackie Celske was born in Chicago. Around the age of 4 she and her family including two siblings moved to just outside London England for her father’s job. One pretty unique fact about Jackie’s family is that her brother, one year younger than she, was born with autism. In one sense, due to the specifics of his situation, Jackie’s brother Matt was fortunate as his diagnosis came when he was two years old. However, as with many children with disabilities, including me for that matter, Matt’s and Jackie’s parents were advised to send him to a home as he could never amount to anything. Jackie’s parents rejected that advice.

When the family moved to England Jackie went to a girls school and Matt was put in special segregated classes. Jackie’s younger sister also was put in a different classroom environment. As Jackie will tell us, she flourished pretty well, but Matt did not. When Jackie was 14, the family moved to a small town in Illinois. For Matt it was a wonderful change because his aunt taught 5th grade and Matt was put into a much more integrated school environment. Life wasn’t so great for Jackie. She experienced a brutal sexual assault while in her sophomore high school year. As she will explain, it really wasn’t until the past two years that she was able to really move beyond that experience and heal.

Jackie went to college and then secured employment. Jackie’s degrees revolved around communications which clearly she demonstrates by how she and I interact.

Jackie will tell you about her chronic illness that stemmed in part from her assault and how only through the use of an experimental treatment she seems to be in remission or cured.

Jackie’s latest major step on her life journey is that a month ago she left teaching in a higher education institution and started her own business, The Prose Co. She will tell you about her new marketing and PR agency. Be sure to check it out.

By any standard, Jackie is unstoppable. Her story will be well worth your time.

About the Guest:

Having grown up in London, England with a sibling with Autism, Jackie Celske learned at a young age that the way we communicate matters. She believes the right words heal us, inspire us, and unite us. Most importantly, the right words - the right stories - have the power to change the world.

Jackie has spent the last 13 years of her career providing professional marketing, communications, and PR services in industries spanning non-profit and healthcare to financial services, manufacturing, and higher education. No matter the field, she has always been inspired by the stories that highlight the people and purpose behind brands.Three weeks ago, this passion led her to leave her full-time job and start her own business titled The PROSE Co. On a mission to change the world with stories that get write to the heart of it, The PROSE Co. is a marketing communications agency specializing in creating compelling content that connects with your audience and helps you stand out from the crowd. Whether you need advertising and copywriting support, fund development strategies, social media and event management or team-building workshops (and more!), The PROSE Co. is a one-stop shop for all your branding and content needs.Jackie holds a master’s degree in Public Relations and Digital Communication from Johns Hopkins University and a bachelor’s degree in Communication Studies and Psychology from Augustana College.

A relentless advocate for women and other survivors in her community, Jackie participates as a member and past president of Junior League of the Quad Cities, serves on the board of directors for Argrow’s House, and sits on both the YWCA of the Quad Cities YES SHE CAN Advisory Committee and Family Resources Stewardship Committee. She also loves spending time learning and growing with her mentee through Lead(h)er. When she's not working, you can find her traveling the world, playing with her rescue doodle, or writing her next parody song.

Ways to connect with Jackie:

Here is a link to my LinkedIn page: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jacquelinecelske/. Here is a link to my new business website, The PROSE Co.: https://theproseco.comHere is a link to my goFundMe for my experimental medical treatment. It lays out my story in more detail: https://www.gofundme.com/jackies-medical-treatment-expenses

About the Host:Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.

Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children’s Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association’s 2012 Hero Dog Awards.

https://michaelhingson.comhttps://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/https://twitter.com/mhingsonhttps://www.youtube.com/user/mhingsonhttps://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/

accessiBe Linkshttps://accessibe.com/https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBehttps://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/

https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/

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Transcription Notes

Michael Hingson 00:00Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visitwww.accessibe.comto learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.

Michael Hingson 01:21Welcome once again to unstoppable mindset. You know these are really fun things to do these episodes and getting a chance to meet so many people. Today I get to talk to a communications expert and a person who I've gotten to know a little bit since we started chatting and exchanging email several months ago, but Jackie Celske blew me away last week when she said I need to update my bio and all of that because I've just changed I quit my job. I've started my own company. And everything is now different. And I went okay, perfect. Exciting. No wonder we didn't do it before now. So Jackie, welcome to unstoppable mindset.

Jackie Celske 02:02Thank you so much for having me. I'm really excited for our conversation today. Well,

Michael Hingson 02:06we are as well. And I certainly hope our audience is going to be as excited as I am. But let's start with the younger Jackie, you grew up in London. Were you born in England and then grew up or what?

Jackie Celske 02:20No, I actually was born in Chicago, Illinois. Good place. Yes. My well, great other than Chicago sports. I'm a Wisconsin sports fan, ironically.

Michael Hingson 02:31But Wisconsin doesn't have Garrett Popcorn. Oh, that

Jackie Celske 02:35is true. That is true. It's a hard. Ooh, toss up there. Yeah, I didn't spend a lot of time in Chicago. I'm the oldest of three. We my parents had three kids and three years. So we are all really close in age. And thanks to them and their adventurous spirit. They believed that moving halfway across the world with three kids under five and one who was newly diagnosed with autism was a fantastic I DIA and adventure. So there we were, we went from Chicago to just south of London. Actually, we were about 30 minutes outside of the city in the country. And I spent the majority of my formative years there. We were there for almost a decade. So I grew up in all girls school school uniforms. I promise I did have a really great British accent back in the day. I've unfortunately, lost it, which makes my story a lot less cool. But we you could go back and get it. I could you know, it's hard to fake. Sometimes it comes out naturally, but I can't force it. Yeah. I've realized that the hard way. It sounds really silly if I tried to just make it be.

Michael Hingson 03:45So you go ahead. So you you live there until you're but probably close to 15 or so. Yeah,

Jackie Celske 03:51closer to 14. So I moved back to the states, middle of junior high. So talk about shock to the system. And we actually we did not move back to Chicago. So my relatives were all in a very small farming community in Western Illinois. So we moved to the small farming town in the middle of my junior high years. And, you know, I went from all girls school to boys in the classroom who were riding their tractors to school and everybody looking exactly the same. And the whole town being pretty much made up of about five different families. So completely opposite experiences. But I haven't ventured too far from that little community since we moved back. So I now live about 45 minutes 15 minutes north of that little town and have made this area my home since then.

Michael Hingson 04:44So what kind of work did your parents do when you're growing up that cause them to move to England and then back and so on?

Jackie Celske 04:54Yeah, great question. My, you know, we always get asked if my dad is in the military, he was Not he actually worked in finance. So in Chicago, he worked on the Chicago Board of Options Exchange floor and was a stock, an options trader. And so I always forget exactly which job opportunity it was that took him over there. But I think he was offered a originally a one year opportunity to work for a bank, over in the UK, and we went for the year and then my parents just really loved it and ended up staying a lot longer.

Michael Hingson 05:28What's not to love and what a great adventure. It

Jackie Celske 05:32sure was, you know, I wouldn't trade it for anything. I love England, I still try to go back about once a year. I've got a lot of great friends over there. Well,

Michael Hingson 05:40and I'm glad that you, you have friends, you have people that you know, and that you have those memories, and you keep building on them, which is which is really great. But when he moved or when they moved back and brought you are back to the States, was he still doing finance or what did he do? When you guys moved to the little town in Illinois? What town? Was it?

Jackie Celske 06:03The name of the town is Alito

Michael Hingson 06:05Lido. Okay. Yeah. So when you move to Alito, what, what did he do? So

Jackie Celske 06:11at my dad actually quit the work that he was doing at the time. So it was we moved in the year 2000, which, you know, if you're familiar with the stock market, trading floors were becoming obsolete at that time, the, that whole industry was completely changing. So I think my dad was ahead of the curve there a little bit and saw that coming and decided, you know, we just need to make a change. And so and in addition to his job changes, I have a younger sibling with autism. My brother Matt, who is just the coolest person I've ever met, and Matt was in a special school for kids with autism over in the UK, their special education system is drastically different than what we're used to here in the US. And so the conversation opened up to, you know, do we move back here and potentially explore transitioning Matt into mainstream school. And that was how we identified Alito as the place to go, I had an aunt, who at the time was a fifth grade teacher, and Matt would have been going into fifth grade that year. And we decided as a family that it made a lot of sense to help him through that transition with somebody he knows and, you know, familiar family member. And so I think those two things combined lots of things changing in my dad's career and world and just the needs of our unique family.

Michael Hingson 07:39So what did he go into for a career?

Jackie Celske 07:43Oh, golly, that could be a whole other podcast interview. He's, if you think my announcement last week was a shock. My dad's been all over. I think I get a little bit of that from him. But he ended up actually becoming mayor of our little town Alito, for a while while I was in high school. And that took us on a host of other adventures. The Lido actually has a sister city in Spain, a lado Spain and so we were able to go over there and they treated us like we were the president of the United States. It was just the coolest trip of all time, from little dinky Alito, Illinois, but so he he was in politics and local government for a while. He has started a few different businesses. I guess kind of there's been a running theme in the construction world. So he has since now moved to Florida, and received his general contractor's license. So he's running a business down there building really beautiful homes in the southwest area of Florida.

Michael Hingson 08:48And your mom. Yeah,

Jackie Celske 08:50my mom. So my mom while we were growing up was actually a stay at home mom, with everything going on with my brother. She was just the champion for us kids growing up. And in England, the school system is different also. So we had three kids go into three different schools in our lives were just pretty chaotic over there. And then when we moved back here, my mom ended up in higher education. So she actually has her doctorate in instructional design. And so she is is really into all things training and does a lot of advocacy work and she now since they moved to Florida works for their amazing church and their community. We're in Florida today. They are in Cape Coral, which is right next to Fort Myers, right. Okay.

Michael Hingson 09:40I was in Fort Myers speaking a few years ago it's been three or four years but it was a good time of year it wasn't too hot and to humans, so

Jackie Celske 09:49I kept roughly when it's not too hot.

Michael Hingson 09:53Yeah, when the book when the bugs have decided that it's not the great weather it is a lovely place in a good time to be there.

Jackie Celske 09:59Yes. It is I always say I have great vacation spots. Thanks to my family. I've got family in Florida and family in Nashville, Tennessee area.

Michael Hingson 10:07And friends in London and yes, exactly. I

Jackie Celske 10:10know there. You're right. Yes, exactly.

Michael Hingson 10:13So for you, so you have a brother and as your other sibling, a brother or sister,

Jackie Celske 10:19my youngest sibling is a sister.

Michael Hingson 10:21So you have a sister and a brother. That's pretty cool.

Jackie Celske 10:23I know best of both worlds, one of each. And we are all very close. We call ourselves the Celski trio. So my poor brother in law is trying to assimilate into that club, most of his life, and he puts up with us pretty well. We all have our challenges. Yes, yes, for sure. What

Michael Hingson 10:41was it like when you move back to the US as a young teenager in terms of assimilating back into the culture of the US as opposed to what you had experienced in England,

Jackie Celske 10:51it was incredibly difficult. So if you can imagine I had a very noticeable British accent. I had never been, you know, I had a brother, but I had a brother with autism and special needs. And so my experience around boys for preteen boys was very minimal. And the educational system in the UK is drastically different as well, they're a little bit advanced in some ways. So they start school sooner. So I was actually a couple of grades ahead, book wise, if you want to say it that way. But maturity level was the same as any other kid my age. So my parents, you know, what I'm thankful for this did decide to keep me in the grade level for my age, instead of accelerating my education in high school at age, you know, 13 or 14, being too early or too young for that. So I was able to at least hang out with kids my age, but it just was incredibly difficult to be in a place where I stood out so much, I remember we moved in August of that year of so right before the school year started, by Christmas, I had a completely a complete American accent, I just forced myself to change my outward identity very quickly, because it made it difficult for people to see me as me, I just, I was too different. You know, and I think, that experience at an early age. And now also, in my adult years, seeing how I'm treated differently in both countries, when I appear as either American or British. You know, I remember what it's like to be in England as a Brit, and how people treat you and now how they treat me as an American tourist when I go and same here. And so I think I just became hyper aware at a young age that about this, the concept of identity, and this idea of communication and the way we interact with each other and why that matters. And it also happened to be at the forefront of social media and instant messaging. And so I was kind of in the middle of this first wave of digital communication, which was amazing, I was able to stay in touch with some of my friends in England, but I was also being introduced to some of that cyber bullying and that anonymous kind of attack. And it was really easy for people to, you know, have negative comments, or essentially just pick on me as a young kid for what I sounded like, or what I looked like, or the things that I wanted to wear. And you know, I had grown up with school uniforms. So I had no idea. I had no concept of cool clothing I didn't, I had to figure out a whole different way to really express outwardly who I was as a person. And I remember being so excited about my first day of school and Aledo wearing this glittery butterfly shirt that I picked out at Walmart and I had no idea that you absolutely do not buy your shirts from Walmart as a 13 year old kid. So it just was all downhill from there. It was a really, for me, it was incredibly challenging. And I think I struggled a lot more than both of my siblings after talking to them about their experience. They just seemed to assimilate a little bit quicker because they were younger. And some of those preteen cultural norms hadn't really started for them yet.

Michael Hingson 14:36Now you move back, you said in 2000. Yes. Okay. So what immediately comes to mind, I want to come back and talk about Matt a little bit in a sec. But one of the things that must have been in ways you look back on it fascinating, although I don't know whether that be the right word to use or not is. So the next year of course, September 11 happened What was that like? So you and all the folks in Lido? Oh

Jackie Celske 15:03gosh, yeah, that's a great question. I just remember being very scared. You know, we, my parents are very proud Americans and did. As much as I became a very British child, I was also a very proud American child who just happened to live in the UK. So, I mean, we celebrated Fourth of July and Thanksgiving and things over there that are a little bit frowned upon for the typical Brits. But you know, I did have a very lot of pride about being American, even at that age. And despite the fact that I grew up in a different country. And so I think I shared similar emotions, as many of the people in our town and in some ways, I almost think that United that little community a lot more than it had ever been, or at least for a really long time, because that was just one moment in history. I remember us all being the same. United Yes, yes.

Michael Hingson 16:12We're, we're a mirror Americans, generally well respected and, and welcomed, let's say pre 2000 wings, do you think

Jackie Celske 16:23I, you know, in my case, I was a child. So it's a little bit harder to know, for sure. I mean, our friends over there in the UK, were they just welcomed us with open arms. And I had a very positive experience being American over there. I think the area in which we lived was also, it's just very common to have what we would probably call transplant families. So our group of friends were all families who had moved from other countries. And so we were all in some ways, going through the same experiences together, and sharing in those learning curves, or, you know, celebrating our heritage and things together, which was really special. And then moving to small town, Illinois, completely different. There was nobody had really ever left that city, it was almost the opposite. So new people didn't come in and people didn't leave. And so from my experience, and where we just happen to live in the UK, I always had a very positive.

Michael Hingson 17:30Well, I'll tell you why. I'll tell you why I asked the question. The one of my salespeople who I hired why I always say as the best sales guy ever hired, when we were doing product trainings for him at the time, and quantum wasn't international company, the blast, best place for him to go to get the media training to be able to start to really sell or, and he had actually been selling for a while. But then the training opportunity came along was London. So he went over and visited the quantum folks in London. And whenever he would go to a bar, he was a sports guy. So he liked to go to sports bars and stuff. But if he went into a bar, and they discovered they had a Yank in their midst, he said, I was treated like royalty everywhere I went. And, and so you know, I'm curious. And the reason for thinking about all of this was, Do you think that's changed a lot over the years that, that it's any different or people still, probably whatever they were about the same as they were before in terms of dealing with Americans and all that. I mean, our world has just gotten so crazy in so many different ways. I'm just curious to get your perceptions on internationally or in England, if things are different than they used to be, do you think? Yeah,

Jackie Celske 18:58I would say yes. A resounding yes. I mean, I feel the differences when I go over and visit. And you know, I'm obviously very familiar with where I'm going, when I'm over there. I'm not necessarily going as a tourist, I'm going most of the time just to visit people and maybe go back to my favorite places. But I tend to perceive that the Brits think we are just kind of arrogant and annoying and would prefer we just kind of get out of the way and not be there a lot of the times and so with my friend group over there, it's just a running joke and especially with the political climate of our current politics, so yes, that definitely, I think contributes to it. I mean, I will say the last election, my I had several friends saying we're just over here eating our bowl of popcorn watching the US like it's a movie right now. So it's almost as if they don't take us too seriously. But I do think There is respect for the independent lifestyle that we live in some of the autonomy we have in, in our culture over here that they don't always experience over in the UK or in Europe in general. And vice versa, I've learned, I've developed a very deep respect for the way that they value work life balance, that we don't get right here, in my personal opinion. So I agree. Yeah, I think I have the luxury of having exposure to both sides and getting to understand what is really great about both countries, and not everybody gets to experience it that way.

Michael Hingson 20:43So what is it? What would you say the work life balance is like over there as opposed to here?

Jackie Celske 20:50Very healthy, they just value relationships and people in a different way, in my opinion, I they get a lot more time off work, they are nobody there is overworked, which I think can be perceived as almost laziness, sometimes to us. But you know, there's nobody getting physically and mentally unwell from work. I mean, I'm sure there are I shouldn't make extreme claims like that. But the cases of you know, mental health concerns from work or physical. You know, well being issues and concerns that can come from overly stressed workloads, they just don't seem to have that same experience there. And my friends are just always traveling always on vacation, they typically work shorter work weeks, they get much more time off with their kids. You know, both both the women and men getting up to a year off when, after giving birth. A lot more quality time with the people that are important to you. And I, in my opinion, that's really what life is about. You

Michael Hingson 22:05traveled much to other places other than just London or England into other parts of Europe.

Jackie Celske 22:10I have Yeah, I have. And I think you know, it's not true across the entirety. But I've been to probably 10 or more other countries, so. And a lot of my friends from the UK actually live all across the world now too. So I kind of get their indirect experience from the new places that they've moved to as well. Maybe

Michael Hingson 22:34you think about the whole thing that's been in the news occasionally, over the past few months about the whole issue in France, where they want to raise the minimum retirement age from 62 to 64. That's gotten pretty violent.

Jackie Celske 22:49Yes, it has. Yeah. And I don't know what I don't know if I have a specific personal opinion yet. I think I'm still forming that myself. Every I don't. And I also am not as familiar with France as I would be with the UK and how that's all structured. But gosh, yeah, it's just in Europe is interesting, because similar to the US, when you think about how different all of our states are, you know, that's what it's like over there, it's just on a more extreme level, you're not just crossing a border to another state, you're crossing a border to a different world, almost, they speak a completely different language and have completely different cultural norms. And so, within a matter of, you know, hours, you can be in a completely different place that just where people don't think like you act like you talk like you. And that's something that I don't think Americans can really even fathom unless they've left the US, or

Michael Hingson 23:48they don't spend enough time thinking about the possibility. That's the case. And as a result, they're less prone and think, in large part, to understand it. And I know for me, I have a hard time understanding the whole issue of just so you're moving from 62 to 64 is the minimum retirement age. Why is it so violent, but at the same time, I also realize that's a marked difference for them. And it's no different than with anyone else. A lot of times, no matter what we say we really don't like a lot of change. No,

Jackie Celske 24:30I know humans don't really appreciate change. We certainly do. Yeah. Yes, yeah, it's the change is hard. Change is very hard. Yeah.

Michael Hingson 24:41Well, tell me a little bit more about growing up with math that had to have some influence in shaping your life and your outlooks and so on. Having a brother who has autism, what was that like?

Jackie Celske 24:54Yeah, you know, I actually think Matt helped me find My life, passion and my life's work. So his specific diagnosis, I think when he was about two or three, in the early 90s was a time when people didn't really understand autism much at all. And so my mom will recount the doctor saying, you know, your son is going to be institutionalized, and he's never going to do any of the things that you think he's going to be able to do. And my mom just looked at them in the eye and said, No, you're wrong. And

Michael Hingson 25:34where have I heard that story? We'll see, same thing my parents did. Yeah,

Jackie Celske 25:40I remember that. When we first connected I remember you sharing something similar and the power in those words, man when I think about it now. Thank God for my mom. Right. I mean, Matt was very behind at when we were in the UK, he, like I said, he went to a school for children with autism, and most of them were nonverbal. So Matt was developing very slowly, he was nonverbal for quite a while, and then when he did begin to speak, it didn't, you know, it didn't often make a lot of sense, we used a what they call over there Makaton sign language to communicate with him. We had a very, I would love to see one of these now. But we had almost like a digital tablet, from the 90s that had pictures on it. So he could press things that he wanted to, you know, if he wanted french fries that day or something, but he had a lot of the just stereotypical repetitive behaviors. He was incredibly tactfully defensive. And so you couldn't even touch him with the tip of your finger without him screaming. And so my mom, she dedicated her a solid 1015 years of her life, to just care for my brother and find the best resources for him. I mean, she would brush his body with a hairbrush several times a day, she would take him to the movie theater and train him on how to adapt to the overstimulation of the loud sound. You know, we laugh about it now that Matt would only eat Mcdonald's chicken nuggets, we would go to McDonald's and buy like 4020 packs of nuggets and have a freezer full of those chicken nuggets for years. That's all guity. And by he started to show these just magnificent gifts. And one of them was his ability to understand directions. So we would go on a road trip as a family, we'd come home, and before he could even really speak, he would take printer paper, lay it out on the floor. And he would to scale draw out and map out the trip that we had just taken. And I remember, as he began to communicate verbally a little bit more, I remember him just randomly saying things like, oh, you know, there was 34,000 dotted yellow lines on that street that we just drove by. It just hit the way that his brain worked, he would memorize the TV Guide. You know, most people don't remember having TV guys, but you know, those giant thick books that would tell you everything that's on the TV for the month on every channel. And Matt would memorize that. And we could ask him, you know, next next week on Saturday, what is on at 8pm on these three channels, and he would know, he just had a photographic memory. So he could read Yes, he could read. Yes. So he started to to show abilities in his communication that I think were being stunted at the school that he was at. And that was kind of the catalyst for my parents in their decision to you know, he's never going to be pushed and challenged in the way that he needs to be unless he is surrounded by all types of kids, not just kids who have autism. And we need to find a way to get them into mainstream schooling. And so they don't do that. As far as I know, at least in the region we were at in the UK, they that wasn't an option for him with his diagnosis. So moving to Alito, he transitioned at first into fifth grade with my aunt as his teacher and he had a full time aide. And, you know, I remember I remember I was just saying he was tactfully defensive as a child and you couldn't hug him. You couldn't touch him. Well, by the time he was a senior in high school, he was an AB student with no aid, a varsity wrestler. He was the lead in the school musical and just an all around stellar, teenage kid just have All the things that a kid should be doing, you know, you're

Michael Hingson 30:03absolutely right. He needed to be in that environment just stimulating. Yeah. Yeah, it was the musical.

Jackie Celske 30:11He was in well, he was in the musical every year, but he was guest on and Beauty and the Beast. Oh, okay. And he did a great job. He did a wonderful job.

Michael Hingson 30:21Even though he didn't get the girl in the end. No.

Jackie Celske 30:23And he played the wizard and the Wizard of Oz as well, trying to think which other ones but he he would always be in the talent shows. And yeah, he's got perfect pitch is another just wonderful gift with his autism. So his musical talent is just absolutely phenomenal. And he went on to get a four year college degree, and he is just a lovely young man. Now he get a major in music business. Makes sense? Yes. Yes. He's not doing that professionally right now. But he has a lot of interests in that field still. So on the side, he and I dabble in kind of writing songs and making little music videos and mashups, and things just for fun, as well, right?

Michael Hingson 31:12Well, you, you obviously had a lot of challenges to overcome and moving back and just being a teenager and going through all the things that you did, much less Matt, but Matt sounds like, as I would describe it a whole lot more of a blessing than, than a lot of people might think. And so yeah, he had autism. And so what, he's come through it, you've come through it, and it's made a whole big difference in your life and how you look at things, which is really cool. So what kinds of did well have challenges or what major things happen to you personally, as a teenager, and in school, and and growing up? Once you move back?

Jackie Celske 31:55Yeah, I, I mentioned that, you know, Matt helped me identify this curiosity, I would say about communication and words and stories. And, you know, one thing that was really challenging for me moving back to the states, coming from the education system that I was in, I gravitated towards older groups. So as a freshman in high school, for example, my core group of friends were all of the seniors. And that just felt more natural to me, that's kind of at the level I had been at in school in the UK. And so I was hanging out with kids that were just probably too old for me at 13 and 14 years old, and getting exposed to things at too young of an age, not that kid should be exposed to anything bad as a teenager, but just hanging with the crowd that I shouldn't have been with yet. And unfortunately, as a sophomore in high school, I found myself at a party with some friends and was we still don't know a lot of the details about that event. But I remember waking up, away from the party away from my friends, I had been drugged with something and was very brutally sexually assaulted that evening by multiple people who know me and knew me well enough to drop me off at my house at the end of the evening.

Michael Hingson 33:25Even though they did what they did, yes,

Jackie Celske 33:27yes. And so that for me, that was the turning point in my life. And I honestly would say I would say, I'm not sure I've, I really even began to fully wholly heal from that until about a year or two ago. It just changed the trajectory of, of everything for me. And the first time I talked to an adult about it, you know, the words were basically, I don't believe you. And you know, I talked about the power of words. I mean, those words changed the trajectory of the next several years for me as well. And so I found myself pretty shortly after that event, just having really extreme physical medical challenges that were unexplainable. I was at the doctor all the time, I was getting sick all the time. And it wasn't until I was 19 when I had a part of my intestines collapsed, so I needed a pretty immediate surgery. And the doctor asked my mom to leave the room. And it was that doctor who actually asked, all right, what has happened here because we don't see internal damage like this. In somebody or age and less. There's been a lot of trauma. And that was the first time I really started opening up so that had been three years.

Michael Hingson 34:56What were your parents thinking or thoughts about it? So

Jackie Celske 35:00I, my mom knew a little bit, my dad actually did not even know me. I never shared it with him until I was in my 20s it was a very difficult thing for me to talk about. And I, like I said, when I started to speak up, it was not well received, I was not getting the support I needed, I was not given access to resources to heal and get help. And so that just really shut me down. And my coping mechanism was to just, you know, get involved in everything in school and be tried to be the perfect student and the perfect teenager and the perfect big sister and I just distracted myself with all of those things in life, and my physical health became such a distraction, honestly, that I didn't understand the connection between the mental health aspect of what I had gone through, and how that was impacting my body, on a physical level for many, many years, and my family was amazing at supporting me and getting the help I needed physically. But we just didn't connect the dots for a really long time. And it took a lot of really hard years and multiple surgeries and multiple doctor visits and trips to different medical systems to really figure that out.

Michael Hingson 36:33And I would imagine no more parties for Jackie for a while. No,

Jackie Celske 36:37no. Yeah, it was. It, you know, in some ways, I remember every detail of the event. And in some ways, I don't it's, they I've learned now that that's really common for sexual assault and trauma survivors to remember very specific details, but not the actual moment of the. So I've written a lot about that and spoken a lot on that. As part of just my advocacy and awareness,

Michael Hingson 37:07and your healing, yes to talking about it helps. And I mean, I, it's not my place to make you just talk a lot about it. But talking about that kind of thing, or whatever goes on in your life always has to help. I know that. And I love to say this that I chose to let people interview me after September 11. And I believe that I did so much better by allowing the media to come into our home and ask me questions, because I got to ask all sorts of questions, some even really intelligent questions, but a lot of questions just about September 11, and anything you could possibly imagine. And occasionally, even now, I'll get a question that I have been asked before, but it doesn't happen very often. But still talking about it was the best thing.

Jackie Celske 38:00Yeah, it's I, I'm a big advocate for either writing or, or verbally talking through your story. For me, support groups. And that kind of community was the best way for me to do that. Because I could sit in a room. And if I didn't feel like speaking, there was still someone next to me, who had a similar lived experience and their words often helped me process, what was going on in my brain. And you know, maybe they were at a different stage of that processing than I was. And so listening and learning from what worked with other for other people, was a huge healing step for me. And that's why I'm just such a big advocate for stories and words. Now, I mean, words are so powerful. And the stories we tell are so powerful, and they're, they're what bring us together. They're what, you know, we said at the beginning, it's what unites us it it's what makes us better, more self aware human beings. And we just go about the world as better people that way. And

Michael Hingson 39:07I'm a firm believer that everyone has a story to tell. And sometimes people save when we discuss them coming on the podcast. Oh, my story isn't interesting. It's just like everybody else. And I said, No cheer story. And sometimes they'll not want to come on. They just don't want to get past that. But I've been blessed that lots of people do come on and tell their stories. And the reality is everyone's story is different. And my job is to help people communicate and tell their story and help to inspire because I think that most of us could be a whole lot more unstoppable than we think we can and I mean that in a very positive way in stories help that.

Jackie Celske 39:46I 100% agree and honestly, that was what made me really excited to be on your podcast because I have not written a book. I have not founded a nonprofit. I have not On on to transform this trauma into something above and beyond, I have just learned how to find my own purpose in it, how to heal so that I am the best version of myself. And I just choose to, you know, use it as part of the one chapter in how I got to who Jackie is today. And I haven't done anything more than that with it. And I think that's an equally important for people to hear. Because you know, there are people out there doing amazing things from the trauma that they've experienced in life. But it's also amazing, to just keep going, and to survive through it and to be on the other side of it. And to keep learning about yourself and learning about what helps you feel better, and how to help other people feel better, that is equally amazing and powerful. So it's not about what you do to change the world. You know, in a big grandiose way we can change the world, in our own small ways every single day when we choose to take care of ourselves.

Michael Hingson 41:13And amazing is such a sometimes overly used word. And the fact is, what you just said is absolutely correct. It doesn't need to be that amazing as well. Because you go out and you speak and you do all sorts of different things to tell the world about what you do or don't do. Ultimately, it's how you feel it's in your brain that really matters in the fact that you're able to move forward. And also, I think it's it's good that you recognize that, that it's really how you approach it and how you feel with it. And that the amazing part is that you do it. And it's something that we all ought to learn a lot more about, and grow to understand. Yeah,

Jackie Celske 41:57I think so too. I've listened to several of your guests, interviews, as well. And I've learned a lot from their perspective and experiences to on just different resources or different tips and tricks on you know how to minimize stress or how to focus on, you know, I listened to I think it was Jennifer's interview that was a day or two ago. And I also tried EMDR. And I was listening to her experience with EMDR. And how it was it was different from mine. And that was really interesting to me to just know that we both benefited from it for different reasons. And, and she goes and shares that as a resource to other people. And I do the same. And so it's those small moments of exchange in those small stories, I think that are the most impactful.

Michael Hingson 42:42Yeah, I talked with someone just yesterday about sound wellness and how different sounds affects us. And what affects some of us one way with a particular sound or set of sounds is totally different to someone else. Like I'm not a great fan of heavy metal, and that kind of music. But some other people are. And that's okay. I can appreciate it. It is still whether I like to think so or not. Heavy Metal is music, and I appreciate that it's music. It's different than what I like, but that's okay.

Jackie Celske 43:18Yeah, exactly. We just need to be okay with it being okay. Right. That's, that's the lesson I think

Michael Hingson 43:25I haven't really totally come to grips of thinking that rap is music in the same way that heavy metal and other kinds of music or music because it's so much more talking. And yes, there's a there's music in the background. But the main part of it isn't necessarily singing. But that may be me. And it may be that the definition of music is just changing from what it used to be. But I'm, I'm still working on that.

Jackie Celske 43:50Well, you'll have to hang out with me a little bit more because I like to write parody rap songs for fun. I've been known to do a surprise parody rap speech or for internal communications, messaging it at work or something, I will dress up and help communicate a message in a very unique and memorable way just for fun. And so I think, you know, I've never been a fan of rap myself. But getting to put a little jakie twist on it like that has made me appreciate it and have a lot of fun with it.

Michael Hingson 44:22I think rap is absolutely an art form. I'm just not sure that I would classify it as music. I think it's an art form. It's a wonderful art form. I've listened to some rap, you know, rap songs or rap music or whatever you want to call it. And clearly the people are very intelligent. They're talking about their life experiences, and are doing it in a very articulate way. So I think it's an art form. I'm just not sure I put it in the category of music as such.

Jackie Celske 44:50And that's where words matter, right? Whether it's music at all. Yeah.

Michael Hingson 44:58It does. Well, you been through a lot? What kind of advice would you give to someone who's maybe been through some of the kinds of things that you have? Whether they've gotten the support or not? What would you encourage people to do to help them move through some of this stuff a little bit more effectively?

Jackie Celske 45:14Yeah, that's an excellent question. I think, to me, it always depends on where you're at in your journey. I think if you are actively surviving something really hard, right? Now, then, first and foremost, you need to take care of yourself, and you need to sleep and you need to eat well, and you need to get some exercise and all the basic foundational things to just keep yourself well. And give your body and your mind the best chance at making it through the challenge ahead of you. I think if you are somebody who is, you know, maybe a little bit further along the journey, and just wants to continue healing and continue growing, I am a huge believer in practicing gratitude. And, you know, again, I think somebody recently on your podcast was talking about morning and evening routines and making intentional time in the day to stop and just appreciate the good that is happening around you. However small or however big. I'm a huge believer in the power of humor, I think the ability to laugh at ourselves is what humbles us, it's what makes stories and human connection a little bit more approachable when we talk about hard subjects like this. So, you know, for me, I battled this autoimmune disease for almost 20 years after that sexual assault that I really am only just now, realizing what that is, and what that means. But one of the organs that was significantly affected was my bladder. And so I genuinely used to pee my pants, quite often, I used to have accidents at work or in professional settings. And I just had to laugh about it. And it, it became something that, you know, my friends and peers and co workers could ask about because it was I made it a safe thing to talk about. And when I had an implant put on my spinal cord to help regulate some of those issues. I named him Pedro. So that when I started talking about Pedro, people would say, well, who's Pedro, and then it would open a conversation, right, so that I could approach really tough subjects. But, you know, I love I love the power of humor, and jokes. And so if you think about the word humor, and humility that both of those words, actually the origin is the same, and it comes from humanity. So when you want to go back to the power of words, you know, those are two powerful words right there. It's what our shared human experience is all about. So and then I guess, ultimately, I would always encourage people to just find ways to mitigate and control and minimize your stress. If I've learned anything, in the last couple of years, or even the last couple of weeks, with some of the big life changes I made, it's that the energy you surround yourself with is really important. Whether that's the people or your work environment, your home and where you live, just making sure that you're creating happy spaces for yourself and safe spaces for you to be yourself where you can be vulnerable. When you need to be when you can be authentic, and your true self and your best self. I think that is really important.

Michael Hingson 48:38You went off to college, and you learned a lot about communications, and certainly learned a lot about how to interact with people. And that certainly has to help shape some of your thinking. But you you have come a long way in in your, your journey in terms of getting better and improving and so on. But you You keep saying especially in the last couple of years, how come so much so quickly lately?

Jackie Celske 49:07Yeah, great question as it again, probably a podcast interview all on, its on its own, but I can shorten it to the best of my ability. So early in 2022. Actually, my medical condition was deteriorating really quickly. So I mentioned I had what we understood to be at the time, actually a neurological disease. So for about 20 years, my doctors were suggesting that I had something wrong with my nervous system. And we were treating it as such. So I would have days where my legs would not work or certain organs would be shutting down for no reason, no apparent reason and it wasn't until early 2022 I just became so sick and so unwell that my doctors here locally who had seen me for about 16 years, threw their hands up in the air and we're out of ideas and I did not know what the next step was going to be. So I decided to quit my job here in Iowa, I moved to Florida where to be with my family. And I just prayed that I would find a new doctor down there who might have a different idea. And man did I get lucky I was at such a point of desperation I had, I've found one doctor down there, we tried a couple additional surgeries. So I had two surgeries and 2022. And the implant that I had on my spinal cord was replaced in hopes that that would maybe make a difference. It did not. And so I found myself calling doctors to try to have organs removed. I mean, I was at a very desperate level, just not well, and I came across an article in a medical journal, about a woman who sounded very similar to me. And she was claiming that she had been cured by this doctor by this experimental treatment. And so I called their office completely in tears. And he, I understood him to be a leukemia doctor, so he specialized in bone marrow transplants, and I just thought, you know, he's not going to see me, I don't have cancer, this isn't going to work out. And to my surprise, they, he and his receptionist are both from the UK, ironically. And we just bonded over the phone about that. And they said, You know what, come on, in we, we would love to speak with you. So I drove about three and a half hours to the other side of the state of Florida and met with his team. And he was able to do some testing on my immune system. It was the first time in about 20 years that any doctor had identified on paper, what was actually wrong with me. So my immune system had been so severely damaged from all of the trauma and all of the stress that my body had been under for the last two decades, that it had aged to the point of, you know, I should have been about 90 to 100 years old with what the data was showing. So all of the illnesses I was acquiring inside my body had nowhere to go, my body wasn't fighting them. And then those, that bacteria that those viruses were living in my nervous system, which is what was causing all of the physical symptoms I was experiencing. So he offered to try the experimental treatment. But you know, obviously, we couldn't guarantee it would work. But it was a combination of infusions and injections for multiple weeks at a time. So I would get a PICC line put into my arm, similar to chemotherapy type treatment. And I was all on board. The only challenge in my way was that, of course, insurance did not cover it. And it was going to be a crazy expense for me and my family. And we decided, You know what, let's just tell Jackie's story. And let's see what happens. And this just beautiful community was formed around me sharing my story, and we were able to raise, I think we're up to about $45,000 in my GoFundMe, my friends back home hosted a benefit for me, and we raised another 10 or so $1,000 to help me pay for that first round of treatment, which cost a little over 80,000 the first time. And that was the biggest blessing I could have ever asked for because I came out of that treatment with almost all of the damage to my immune system reversed. And unfortunately, we just we couldn't do any more at the time financially. So I was feeling a lot better, I decided to move back home. And what we found was that because we didn't complete the entirety of the treatment, I just continued to regress after moving back home. So earlier in 2023, March, I went back down and we completed another round and we extended it this time. So I had to take a second mortgage out on my house to make that happen and you know, make a big gamble on myself, but it paid off because going for that extra amount of treatment, we were able to hopefully knock on wood permanently reverse the damage in my immune system. And it has so far cured me of almost all of the physical impairments that I had been battling for about 20 years.

Michael Hingson 54:28On top of everything else you decided to go off and start your own business and quit what you're doing before What were you doing and what did you quit? Yeah,

54:37I did. So I like I said I was kind of in and out. I went from Iowa to Florida. I went to Florida over the last year and a half and so I moved back to Iowa for a while and started a job in higher education. discovered pretty quickly that that just was not for me. The particular culture of the place that I worked was a I'm very toxic and very unhealthy. And I started to develop stress and do seizures and other symptoms that were, you know, a clear sign that my body was not going to be well in this environment. And so I, in talking to my family and loved ones, I remember saying, you know, everyone was encouraging me to leave, I kept thinking, wow, that looks bad, I've been putting jobs right and left, I'm not sticking around anywhere very long. I don't have a plan B. And somebody just said, Well, you have to be alive to have a plan B. There you go. And it was those words, again, going back to the power of words, that convinced me that I just, I needed to make a change, and I would figure it out. And so that's what I did. I went in and quit pretty much the next day. A couple days later, I incorporated my own LLC, the PROSE, CO, and PROSE, which means written and spoken language. And I started my own communications and marketing firm. And now I'm a month into that, actually, this week will be an official month of full entrepreneurship. And I have already, you know, replaced my full time job income. And I'm already doing full time work with a host of different clients, wonderful, awesome clients that believe in me and chose to take this leap with me. So it's been an exciting couple of months.

Michael Hingson 56:28That is really exciting. And so what what are you doing for customers now? Exactly? Yeah,

56:36great question. So I chose the PROSE CO. A, because PROSE stands for basically communication. But PROSE is also an acronym for the different services that I provide. So P would be promotional communications, which was everything from website content, advertising and events. Are stands for relational communications. So for my nonprofit clients, that's a lot of fundraising and stewardship strategy. For others. It's more public and media relations. O stands for organizational. So that's all things internal communications, from newsletters to change management, we laughed earlier about how difficult changes, helping to navigate that for some of our clients from a messaging standpoint, S is social media. So I do a lot of social media management, community management. And I love analytics. So diving into digital analytics is kind of my my thing. And then E stands for executive. So anything that we we call it transformational or inspirational. So I do everything from speech writing, to strategic planning, and brand strategy workshops. And I keep saying there's just a giant plus sign on the end of that too, because already in my short month, I've had a lot of custom projects pop up that weren't in that original scope that I had designed or imagined. So it's just kind of ever evolving right now. But mainly, you know, the miss the mission of the Prosecco is to change the world through stories. That's what I want to do. And anything that's going to help tell a client's brand story and help engage their clients in a way that goes beyond just creating a positive affinity towards that brand. But transforming that into some sort of action and change that's going to move that mission forward is really ultimately what my goal is with this company.

Michael Hingson 58:32And you certainly have done something major to get rid of a lot of stress over which you don't have any control over, you're going to have challenges because you're going to have deadlines, and you're going to have people who want different things. But you are the one who set that up, which makes it just so much better than stress in an office environment where as you said, it can be very toxic.

Jackie Celske 58:56Yes, it sure does. I, you know, it's a little bit more, there's new challenges, right, which is kind of the fun of it. But it's I'm asking myself silly things like do I want to just wear pajamas today? Or do I want to put normal pants on and go to the coffee shop, but it's it's a little bit of a different level of stress. But, you know, ultimately, I I want to provide the top quality service to clients that I can. And I'm very fortunate to have a great network, the community that I live in, where there's several other freelancers. And we've all started partnering together so that we can still provide a full service agency experience, just at a lesser cost for clients essentially without that overhead. So it really does feel community and team driven, which is not what I was expecting branching off on my own. I thought I would be giving that part up and it almost feels like I've gained more of that than I had before. And it also feels like we're really solving problems and we're really meeting a need in our commune. Any that maybe wasn't there before. So it's, it's exciting to be a part of it.

Michael Hingson 1:00:03That is super cool if people want to reach out to you and learn more about pros CO and maybe, hopefully work with you and use your services and so on, how do they do that? And how do they reach out to you and learn more about you, I

1:00:16would love for people to reach out and just connect at a minimum share your stories doesn't have to be for business purposes, formally, but my website is the proseco.com I keep joking that it's basically the prosecco.com without the extra c, because I do love my Prosecco and wine. So it's a good fit. But there's a contact form on there. If folks want to reach out and just get connected there. They can also email me info at the pros wcco.com Or feel free to look me up on social media. I'm, I'm on most of them. And I'm Jackie Celske, I think I'm the only one in the world. So I'm pretty easy to find whether that's a good thing or bad thing. So selfkey is spelled C E L, S K E.

Michael Hingson 1:01:02So its J A C K I E C E L S K E. Yes, perfect. Well, this has been absolutely wonderful. And I am so glad that we finally made connections. And if you want to come back on in the future, and continue the discussion and tell more of the story, whether you write a book or not, we're glad to have you come back on but I bet one of these days you'll decide to sit down and write it or find someone to help write a book and and help inspire other people. But whatever you do, you've already done such amazing stuff. And you've been so committed to making it happen. And that's as good as anybody could ask for. So I really appreciate you being on and giving us so much of your time. Well,

Jackie Celske 1:01:47thank you so much. I think yeah, I've surprised myself in the last few weeks and months for sure. So who knows, I might surprise myself and do something like that one day, we'll

Michael Hingson 1:01:57see. If you want to talk about it ever. Don't hesitate to reach out.

Jackie Celske 1:02:01I thank you very much. And thank you for the platform and opportunity to just be part of this community that you're building. It's it's been really special to me. So thank you. Well,

Michael Hingson 1:02:09this has been fun. Well, I hope that you've enjoyed listening to us and that you enjoyed everything that Jackie had to say I'd love to hear from you. Please feel free to reach out you can email me, Michaelhi m i c h a e l h i accessibe A C C E S S I B E.com. Or go to or and go to our website, www dot Michael hingson H i n g s o n.com/podcast. Check out more episodes if you're new. And if you've heard a bunch you can always go find them there easily anyway, we really appreciate it. Wherever you're listening, please give us a five star rating. We all do appreciate that. And we do really want to hear your thoughts. And Jackie for you and all of you listening if you know of anyone else who we ought to have as a guest on unstoppable mindset, bring them on, we'd love to hear from other people. And we'd love to bring more people on and help inspire and motivate all of us because that's really what it's all about, and having fun. So you can't do better than that. But Jackie, once more. I want to thank you for being on and hope we can do this again.

Jackie Celske 1:03:15I would love that. Thank you so much.

Michael Hingson 1:03:20You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visitwww.accessibe.com. AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

View Details

Chris Hall is a first generation multi-racial Caribbean American who was raised by a single mom. He tells us his story growing up in NY City and he dealt with poverty and being a bit unusual because he looked different. As it turned out, he also was diagnosed with Attention Deficit Disorder and Dyslexia although he did not learn his diagnoses until he was in high school. Like many undiagnosed children he felt out of place. Finally learning of his medical issues he began working to understand and grow.

Chris went to college and successfully studied and graduated. He tells us how he eventually substituted some Eastern medical practices for the medications his doctor prescribed for him to help with his ADD. I asked him if he felt that his new regiment regarding ADD was better than Western medications. You will hear that indeed he feels more improved now.

Chris eventually began working at Boeing in various financial roles. He always credits good mentors and teachers with his successful building of confidence and success on the job.

In 2017 he decided to give back by becoming a mentor and coach to others. He also has, as he puts it, started a side hustle as a public speaker. So, clearly he keeps busy and loves the activity. He will tell us, however, that it is important to take time to relax, unplug and think. I leave the rest for Chris to tell. All I will say is that clearly he is unstoppable. I hope you see that as well.

About the Guest:

Christopher Hall is a 1st Generation multi-racial Caribbean American, who was born and raised in NYC by a single mom. Ever since young, Chris has been passionate about helping others and leading his life with positivity, determination, empathy, passion, kindness, and grace!

Being born and raised in the heart of NYC was not easy! As the only child of an immigrant mother who did not attend college, Chris and his mom went through hard times. Both financially and in regard to learning as he struggled with a learning disability (ADD/ADHD/Dyslexia) when younger. However, through these tribulations, he was fortunate enough to have had mentors, teachers, and a wonderful tutor Krish Kamath who went out of their way to teach him and provide him with guidance. It was through this that Chris became fearless, confident, and resilient. These times built his character and truly instilled a drive and burning passion into wanting to help others! In November 2017, Christopher channeled this passion of helping others through mentorship, and his goal was simple: He was eager to mentor people and help them find their WHY and their own passion! Chris truly believes everyone has a deep inherent why that is so powerful, yet many do not know what it fully is or how to access it, and are oftentimes pressured by what society wants them to be. Chris's goal is to make my vocation a vacation and help others do the same.

Professionally

Chris was also a 2019 member of Harvard Business School Summer Venture in Management Program (a highly selective residential week-long PreMBA student at Harvard Business School campus which exposes you to real-world Business Cases) and was a recruiter and ambassador for the SVMP Alumni Association. Chris Hall is also a 2019 Forbes 30 Under 30 College Scholar.

From a professional perspective, Chris Chris has interned twice for The Boeing Company as a Financial Analyst and was extended a full-time offer for Boeing's Top Finance rotational program called the Business Career Foundation Program (now reprogrammed as the FCFP) which exposed him to 6 different roles within Finance, Strategy, Contracts, HR, and Sales within 2 years.

Outside of this Chris, use to work as a Teller in Banking, worked as a Sales Consultant, Senior Sales Consultant, and Sales Trainer for an Internal Currency Exchange Retail Corporation, and was set to get promoted to Assistant Sales Manager (prior to COVID in March of 2020).

Chris was also extended an offer to Intern at Morgan Stanley as a Compliance Analyst in New York during the Summer of 2018.

Finally, Chris has received interviews, Superdays, and/or offers for multiple Fortune 500 Companies including Goldman Sachs, Google, Blackstone, Morgan Stanley, JP Morgan, Boeing, Airbus, Bloomberg, Bank of America, Lockheed Martin, HSBC Bank, Fox News, Amazon, Barclays Investment Bank, etc.

This is what inspired Chris to begin mentoring others after having experience with these firms. Up to date, Chris have mentored over 700 people across 5 continents in person (from November 2017 to date) and virtually and has helped over 12,000+ people through his YouTube Videos! Additionally, his LinkedIn posts have amassed over 100,000+ views altogether.

Chris's primary goal as an individual is to give back and serve others! Whether that is offering the top quality products in a corporation, to helping individuals during times they need it the most. Chris's success is making other people and companies successful!

Chris is eager to take upon new challenges and grow in this beautiful journey of life. It is my drive and my personal values that influence me to work hard and even harder, every single day!

Outside of work and mentorship, Chris is very passionate about Mental Health, Self-Care, Self-improvement, Traveling, Nature, Singing, Hiking, Archery, YouTube, Finances, & fitness!

Ways to connect with Chris:

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/christopherrangonh/

Calendly: (To book a 1:1 Mentorship Session)https://calendly.com/christopher-rangon/mentorship

TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@chris_rangon/

Youtube: https://youtube.com/@skateboardcrh12

Instagram: https://instagram.com/chris_rangonhttps://www.instagram.com/christopherrangonspeaks/

About the Host:Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.

Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children’s Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association’s 2012 Hero Dog Awards.

https://michaelhingson.comhttps://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/https://twitter.com/mhingsonhttps://www.youtube.com/user/mhingsonhttps://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/

accessiBe Linkshttps://accessibe.com/https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBehttps://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/

https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/

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Transcription Notes

Michael Hingson 00:00Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visitwww.accessibe.comto learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.

Michael Hingson 01:20Well, hi there and welcome once again to unstoppable mindset. And this episode, we get to talk with Christopher Hall. Christopher is an interesting person by any standards. He's got the the luxury of being a first generation multiracial American. He is passionate about helping others and he does a lot of different things and has a lot of life experiences, which was what makes this really funny. And not only funny, but fun. I shouldn't say funny, really, because it is fun to really be able to talk about experiences, and talk about them very seriously. And so Christopher really has a lot of experiences that a lot of us don't normally get to experience and, and share up. And so I think we're all going to be drawn in by our discussion today. And with that, I want to welcome you to unstoppable mindset. Do I call you Christopher or Chris? You

Christopher Hall 02:25could call me Chris. And thank you so much, Michael for having me. I really appreciate it.

Michael Hingson 02:30Then I will call you Chris just not late for dinner. And Chris. Chris lives back in Pennsylvania. So right now we're recording this at 734 in the evening. He just got home from work. So you haven't had dinner yet? Have you?

Christopher Hall 02:46No, I haven't. But I made sure to, you know, pass by Starbucks or for a quick snack so

Michael Hingson 02:55well, what's, what's the snack today?

Christopher Hall 02:58The snack was an impossible breakfast sandwich, actually. So yeah, what's

Michael Hingson 03:03what's an impossible breakfast sandwich? What's that?

Christopher Hall 03:06So it is a breakfast sandwich on a ciabatta bread with eggs, cheese and impossible meat? Because I'm pescetarian. So I only eat fish. Yeah. And it's pretty good. It hits

Michael Hingson 03:22the spot. What kind of fish was it? You know?

Christopher Hall 03:25Well, it wasn't fish that I specifically ordered this time, but it was impossible beef. So it was based beef. Got

Michael Hingson 03:32it? Okay. Me. I'm a shrimp fan myself. But that's another story.

Christopher Hall 03:39Awesome. Well,

Michael Hingson 03:41so you are from New York. You've been in New York. Why don't we go back and start at the beginning? Why don't you tell us a little bit about you, Chris, the young person growing up and all that stuff. And let's go from there.

Christopher Hall 03:53Absolutely. So I was born in 97 in Brooklyn, New York. And I was raised around Bay Ridge and I moved to Queens, New York when I was about six years old. And I lived in Queens for most of my life. Ended up going to elementary school, middle school, junior high school in Queens, went to high school in Long Island, just about 20 minutes away. And I attended Baruch College in Manhattan. And that's where I decided to pursue my degree in finance. I was really, really passionate about finance and math. And yeah, that's, that's that's just a little bit about my upbringing. At least in the New York side. New York is such a diverse place.

Michael Hingson 04:52Yeah, yeah. It is. So multiracial. What races.

Christopher Hall 04:57Oh, gosh. All right. I even began. So this is a long list. Okay? Yes. So both of my parents are from the Caribbean. But just through generations of family. They, they, they come from a lot of places. So, on my mom's side, she's from the island of Martinique. But I have grandparents that originate from India. On my dad's side, my dad is was born in the country of Haiti. But he's white and complexion. And both of his parents actually emigrated from England and France, to Haiti. And I also have heard that I have Middle Eastern genes in my blood as well. So very, very mixed between Caribbean, Middle Eastern, Indian, and you're up here.

Michael Hingson 05:55Wow. And again, you were born where? Exactly?

Christopher Hall 05:59I was born in Brooklyn, New York.

Michael Hingson 06:01So there you go, the melting pot of the world by most any standard or one of them. Well, so you're you were raised by your mom, I guess primarily. So there wasn't a dad in the picture.

Christopher Hall 06:17Yeah, so I was I was primarily raised by my mom. You know, she was a single parent, who just took care of me throughout throughout the highs and lows. And I owe her so much. My dad did provide moral support, or monetary support. But it was mainly my mom who took care of me. And I'm tremendously grateful for that.

Michael Hingson 06:49But you had said, when we chatted before that there were a lot of hard times economically and you also have a disability or you did I don't know whether you still regard yourself as having that lunch. Tell us a little bit about all that.

Christopher Hall 07:02Yes, absolutely. So my mom works as a housekeeper. She still does. And she's worked as a housekeeper for over 37 years. And while growing up, I went through a lot of tough times and tribulations and I and I saw my mom go through so many hardships. There were times that my mom would be late on rent multiple times, there were times that I was unable to afford new shoes. There were times that I saw my mom give me food. And unfortunately, I didn't see her eat. But I was very, very, very fortunate that, you know, my mom really, really took the time to instill hope and kindness inside of me. So even though I did witness that, and even though at times it did affect me, I always remained optimistic. In regards to learning disability, ever since young, I was very hyperactive. And I actually did not speak my first word until the age of four years old. So I actually went to a delayed language school. Because I did not really say my first ever syllable until the age of four. And I went to school in Brooklyn called high tech, where I was able to learn language and how to enunciate my words. And it was it was truly a challenge. And even throughout school, and I guess throughout growing up, really I struggled with attention deficit disorder, and dyslexia. And there were so many things that I struggled to understand. I struggled to comprehend. And I remember vividly taking so much longer than my peers around me. And I remember vividly studying for hours trying to work so hard and I wasn't getting the grace that I wanted. So that is that is still something that I do struggle with to this day in regards to concentration, but I have figured out ways to really navigate it. Just by understanding my body, understanding the way my mind works, and really working for myself, or working with myself rather, in order to ensure that I'm putting my best foot forward

Michael Hingson 10:00So you still deal with dyslexia today?

Christopher Hall 10:02Yes. Okay. Yes, I do. So, you

Michael Hingson 10:06know, if I may, a couple of things come to mind, let's go back to your mom and you and you have a lot of challenges economically and so on. How do you think that has shaped your outlook on life? Today? And when what is your outlook on life?

Christopher Hall 10:30That's a great question. I guess just start off with the first point. What really stood out to me, I guess, when I saw my mom experienced the things that she did, was really learning about the power of being mindful, the power of being mindful with how I save and how I spend my money. And also understanding that, you know, you should always prepare for any form of situation that does come your way. But also, at the same time, I also learned not to be afraid of investing in myself, because that's, that's so important to me. And I'm sorry, Michael, what was the other part of your question?

Michael Hingson 11:22Well, the so you, you learned to be very mindful of money, you learn to be intentional about what you do, and how So it clearly hasn't made you bitter, to have gone through all that stuff. And I find that fascinating, and actually very joyous and wonderful, because I've spoken to a number of people on this podcast who have had in their own way, similar situations, that is, they have had adverse situations they've had to deal with growing up. And they come out of it, recognizing what they had, and appreciating what they had and what they have now, in so many ways, and are very articulate about it. And say that even so they wouldn't have changed, or traded their childhoods for anything, because of the fact that in reality, they learned so much because of what they had to do. Absolutely,

Christopher Hall 12:27absolutely. I definitely do concur with that point. I feel like coming from humble beginnings, allows you to learn and grow. And I feel also, at least for me, personally, the most valuable things in life aren't things that are necessarily tangible, like money, it's there are things that are intangible, such as, you know, feeling joy, feeling love, you know, having peace of mind. And, and I feel like throughout the duration of my childhood, I experienced that because I have a beautiful mother that always, you know, told me about the power of having hope, of having kindness of helping others. And it allowed me to grow up with really a lot of humanity and just see that there are things that happen in life. So yeah, I'm tremendously grateful for my childhood. So so thank you for asking that question, Michael.

Michael Hingson 13:36Now, at the same time, you you had learning disabilities, you had issues with dyslexia and ADHD, how did you navigate through all that and come through that it had to be frustrating? Or does it? Was it not necessarily because you really didn't know for a long time? What really was going on?

Christopher Hall 13:57Yeah, great question. So I wasn't officially diagnosed with ADHD and dyslexia until I was in about ninth grade. So this was around the age of 14 or 15. And it was it was hard. And it was very, very frustrating. But my mom realized from young that I really needed extra attention when it came to schooling. And, and it was from there that my mom said, You know what I'm going to take to time to invest in my child. And literally, I am my mom's investment. I remember, you know, her taking me to programs, such as Kumaon and score. Me going to an ideal Montessori school when I was young, and you know, she would take the time to invent asked, like $350 a month, $360 a month to send me to a private school. And I remember, you know, waking up at 5am, to get ready by 545. And, you know, to, you know, go on a two hour commute, two and a half hour commute from Brooklyn to Queens. And getting that individualized learning. So I'm very, very grateful in that regard. My mom saw the power of good teachers, good programs, and education. And I feel like that just made things easier for me, because it encouraged me, because it made me realize that it's not like I'm uncapable of learning, I just learned in a different way, I just comprehend information and obtain it in a different way. And it was through learning through beautiful teachers, and individuals who pushed me that I realized, hey, you know, I am able to do that. And it gives a great sense of empowerment. And, you know, later on when school got a lot more serious, and, you know, when you're in sixth grade, seventh grade, eighth grade, you're taking very core curriculum courses in order to get you ready for high school. And I realized that I was struggling during that time. In seventh grade, I was failing a lot of my classes, I realized the importance of, Hey, maybe I do need to go to a specialized doctor to see if I could get the help that I needed. And I ended up going to a doctor that specialized in ADHD and dyslexia and things cognitively in regards to the brain. And in regards to how you process information. And I took assessments, I took tests. And that's when I received my official diagnosis. And I was very fortunate that I was actually prescribed medication. And I was able to take that during high school. And that really helped me. And that served me tremendously. And, and I took medication, I would say, from really from high school, up until my sophomore year of college, and it helped me

Michael Hingson 17:48when your concentration, did you were able to stop taking the medication anymore?

Christopher Hall 17:54Yeah, so currently, currently, I do not. And I was able to find natural ways to really aid with my concentration in regards to just organizing organizational skills, natural supplements. Really adequate sleep, adequate sleep helps me a lot. Going to bed at certain times also helps me a lot to with my concentration. There you go. Yeah.

Michael Hingson 18:28Do you find that the natural remedies do as well or even better than taking the typical western science medication? And I asked that, because I've talked to two people on this podcast from both sides of that. So I'm just curious what your thoughts are?

Christopher Hall 18:46Yeah, great question. Um, I would personally say yes. It in the very beginning, in all transparency, I did have a lot of doubt where I just said to myself, like, oh, is this really going to work? You know, I took, you know, a Western prescribed medicine for five to six years, is the natural remedy going to work the same way? So, in my mind, I started to have doubts. But I really took the time to do my due diligence and research. I looked at different natural supplements, I tried different things. And I was I was really able to see what worked well for me. And I do have to say, it does work as well. For sure. Absolutely. I think you do need to be a lot more. You know, disciplined, however, with your habits in order for it to work efficiently, you know, such as like your sleep, and your exercise for me exercising and sleep. actually helps me a lot My concentration.

Michael Hingson 20:02So you, you strike me as a as a person who has been very grateful for all that you've had, which is great. One of the things that I've noticed from a lot of people who we've had the the honor to chat with, who have been through a lot of adversity and come out of it. The other end I think is the best way to put it is that not only are they grateful, but they, they love to give back, which I think is important. I think I've been doing some of that ever since being in the World Trade Center on September 11. And I decided after that, that if I could speak as people were starting to invite me to do and if I could sell philosophy and life instead of selling computer hardware, it was a lot more rewarding. So how do you do that? And how do you give back to to the world and to people because of the things that you've experienced?

Christopher Hall 20:56Absolutely. Great question, Michael. So I try my utmost best to give back in any way I can. I would say you could give back in the smallest of ways. I know with me, I tried to give back through teaching, mainly through helping others. So one huge initiative that I've taken ever since 2017, when I was a junior in college, was actually to pay it forward and help people when it comes to obtaining internships and when it comes to obtaining full time jobs. And I did it originally because I had a mentor who worked at Morgan Stanley, and his name is Christopher too. And he took time out of his very busy schedule working 60 7080 plus hour weeks, just to mentor me and teach me. And, you know, I went from someone who was just very, very shy and reserved. I didn't have that much friends, to someone that was brave, eager and determined to network with people to connect with people to get to learn more about others. And it was true that I feel like my passion for giving back at least when it came to mentorship was born. So I've primarily have done that through my college campus when I was in college, and also via LinkedIn, as well. And I'm grateful to say, you know, to date, I've volunteered. And I've helped about 300, maybe 350 to 400 people for free. And I realized that I was very great at mentorship, and I realized that I was able to really give back to others and others really appreciated what I had to offer. And I turned that into a side business over time in about 2020 or 2021.

Michael Hingson 23:37Wow, well, how do you continue to mentor people you've mentored hundreds of people? How do you do that without getting tired? And how do you just keep going forward?

Christopher Hall 23:50That's a great question. I would have to say I, I remember my why. I know for me, when I was struggling and going through so many challenges in middle school, high school college. I had a long time tutor, teacher, someone who I would even consider a family friend who took the time to teach me and believe in me and helped me and and it was even during the times I didn't believe in myself. And I remembered vividly, you know, he would always say, you know, take the time to rest but keep on moving forward, keep on going. And during the time that I mentored people, there were times that I was dealing with other responsibilities in life there were times that I was dealing with challenges, setbacks, etc. But I am knew that if I had the opportunity to positively affect someone's life that could not only affect their life, but also affect their family's life and the people around them in a very, very positive and optimistic way. So I kept that in the forefront of my mind. And during the times that I felt tired, or if I felt like I needed a break, I took the time to get rest. Because resting and recharging is so important. But I never quit. In addition to that, I feel like what really allowed me to just remain resilient, is just by seeing how my mom approached situations, there were times that my mom worked 12 to 14 hour days, six days a week, even seven days a week. And she would always take the time to do things with a smile on her face, even though she was exhausted. And that was something that really inspired me. So ever since young, I told myself, hey, if I am tired, but if I'm doing something great, I'm going to take the time to remain resilient and go through it. And that's something that served me personally.

Michael Hingson 26:35Well, you clearly had a role model that helped with your mom. And I had a lot of role models. Yeah. You had a lot of role models, but your mom certainly set set the tone. And that helped.

Christopher Hall 26:48Absolutely, absolutely for sure.

Michael Hingson 26:52So you have, you have said that you treat your vocation like a vacation. Tell me about that?

Christopher Hall 27:05Yes. You

Michael Hingson 27:07know, I'd ask you that one.

Christopher Hall 27:10Yes. So, gosh, I actually did not know what the word vocation was. Until my senior year in high school. In 12th grade, I had a psychology teacher by the name of Donato manga Liuzzo. He goes by the name of Mr. Monk, for sure. And he always talked about the power of doing things that make you feel passion, and true love inside. And he always talked about the power of going after your goals and going after your dreams and not being afraid to set yourself apart. And he would always tell us this continuously class he says, you know, you'll reach an amazing stage in your life when you make your vocation a vacation, when you make your work something that you love. And I really resonated with that. And that's what I've strived to do. Ever since my senior year in high school going forward, I asked myself like, okay, you know, outside of me taking care of my needs, like financially. Does this role or does this hobby something that I'm doing? Does it make me happy? Because life, life goes by quickly. And it's and it's great to feel happy? Yeah.

Michael Hingson 28:49So you graduated from college? What do you do now?

Christopher Hall 28:55So I graduated from Baruch in 2019. And I currently work at the Boeing company. So I work as a finance contract specialist. And I really love what I do. Tell

Michael Hingson 29:11me more about what that what that means, like what your job is? Absolutely.

Christopher Hall 29:15So I help with selling V 22 helicopters to the government. So I look at contract proposals. I write drafts of letters. And I help with negotiating in order to help, you know sell these to the government such as the US Navy, and the US Army. And I've been with Boeing for about two and a half years, a little over two and a half years. And ever since I was 17 I was passionate about aviation and aerospace Bass, it was something that I've always wanted to pursue. And I was very fortunate that I wanted to pursue like a space like that, because aviation, I think is such a diverse, and really niche community. Even though aviation is so big, you see airplanes in the sky all the time you see helicopters in the sky all the time. But being able to be in an industry where you're able to serve millions of people, is something absolutely fascinating. And I'm grateful to do what I do every day. But

Michael Hingson 30:45you also have started a career in coaching and public speaking. Tell me more, a little bit more about that. What got you started down that road as well? Yes,

Christopher Hall 30:55absolutely. So for. So for career coaching, I guess we'll start there. In in 2017, as I mentioned earlier, I had a mentor, by the name of Christopher, and he helped me when it came to giving me the opportunity to learn more about interviews and connecting with people and things of that nature. And when I received the full time off, well, not a full time offer, actually, but an internship offer from both Morgan Stanley and the Boeing company. I was so happy, I was ecstatic. And I told my mentor Chris about this. And he said, you know, Christopher, I'm so proud of you. And I want you to remember something, I want you to do one thing, and that is pay it forward. And that was something that really, really really, you know, stuck with me. And it was something that made me feel so inspired. So ever since November of 2017. I've mentored many people around college campus. And in the end of 2019, when I was graduating from college, I realized, Hey, I'm very, very good at this, maybe I should, you know, see if I could cultivate this into a business. I've been hearing a lot of people say hey, Christopher, you, you know you have something, you are really able to inspire and help others and connect other people as well with their opportunities and and help people find their why and their passion, you should turn this into a business. So in 2020, I was thinking about it. And I'm asking myself, okay, how can I do this? And unfortunately, COVID happened. It really hit New York City hard in March of 2020, with with the lock downs. And I told myself, you know what, okay, I'm going to try my utmost best to help as many people as I can, because I see people getting laid off, left and right. And that simple initiative of wanting to really help people as much as I could, turned into me, putting a lot of posts on LinkedIn sharing, value added information about how to search for jobs during the time of the pandemic, how to ask, informational, or how to have informational interviews in an appropriate manner, what questions to ask, after an interview, how to answer specific interview type questions, and I would create these posts on LinkedIn. And I took the initiative to set up 45 minute long calls for free from 12pm to 9pm, seven days a week, from April of 2020 through August of 2020. And during that time, that was about 11 people a day, max that I mentored. During that time I mentored over 200 people within that four month timeframe. And in August of 2020, I decided I want to pursue this and I want to transform this into a you know small time business. And by small time I don't think that's true. right word, but really, as a side business rather. And during that time, I said, You know what, let me use Calendly. And let me charge $20 for a 25 minute mentorship session. And I was very, very grateful that I was able to obtain clients that wanted to, you know, learn more, and they wanted to pay for my services. And it started from there. And in regards to public speaking, I would say, I had a passion for public speaking and really helping others, at least in regards to speaking in public ever since 2019. That just started with me being curious, and seeing if any elementary schools, high schools or colleges needed a speaker in order to help with providing students motivation. And it was from dare that I decided to reach out to high schools and colleges, at the time I was in Seattle. And I realized when I, you know, took the time to get out of my comfort zone and speak. It left the students feeling very, very inspired and very motivated. And that's how my passion for public speaking was born. And so far, I've I've spoken to the University of Washington, to provide a workshop there. I spoken to my alma mater, which is Razi school. And I've smoked, and I've spoken to other small various places, as well. And that's something that I'm very passionate about to how

Michael Hingson 37:07did you find some of these places to speak at? like University of Washington, that's clearly quite a ways away from you.

Christopher Hall 37:17Yes, so, before moving to Pennsylvania, I was actually in Seattle for about a year. And I actually have a lot of friends that attended the University of Washington. And Boeing actually has a very good relationship with the University of Washington. Well. It was it was it was very, very easy for me to leverage my connections and have the opportunity to speak there.

Michael Hingson 37:49So does Boeing know that you're doing public speaking like this?

Christopher Hall 37:56I would say yes. Yes, they do. I posted on LinkedIn. And I talked about, you know, my love for for, for speaking with others to, you know, you know, to my team, so they're, they're fully supportive of it? Well,

Michael Hingson 38:11it certainly has continued to work out pretty well for you, needless to say, which is as important as it as it could possibly be. What have you taken in the way of lessons from your work at Boeing that has helped you and the rest of things that you do?

Christopher Hall 38:31Absolutely. So I would have to say, there have been a couple of things. Number one is networking. Really, taking the time to network is truly so important. So when it comes to, you know, connecting with others, collaborating with others, when it comes to specific projects or tasks, building rapport is truly so important. Because at the end of the day, people will give you opportunities if they know you, and they're able to vouch for your work ethic, if they know who you are. What is your personality, what you bring to the table. So that is that is truly important, you know, networking and fostering relationships, I would say is number one, number two, one thing that I've learned is, and it really alludes to number one is you know, ensuring that you have good rapport with people, as much as you can never burn your bridges. You know, the world is very big, but it's also very, very smart. People talk and individuals know each other. So always take the time. To put your best foot forward and lead with transparency, lead with love, you know, always take the time to serve others in any way you can, it really helps tremendously. And that is, that is something that I've learned and, and number three, I would have to say, one of the biggest things that I've learned through Boeing is Never be afraid of interacting with others. I know throughout my time, you know, at the Boeing Company, there were there were times that I was intimidated to reach out to a senior vice president or a managing director, or CEO, of you know, you know, Boeing Business Unit. But I realized throughout my time, people are eager to connect, and really help. At least, that's most people. So about what I would say is, I guess the common theme between all of those three things is not being afraid to put yourself out there. And really take the time to add value, and do good.

Michael Hingson 41:23As a motivational speaker, what theme Do you think resonates most with your audiences? And why is it important today?

Christopher Hall 41:33Yes, so I would have to say, resilience is, is something that definitely resonates with a lot of my audience members, because the thing about life is, life will have its challenges, and at times, it will be unpredictable. And there will always be uncertainty, there will always be, you know, individuals that may not recognize or see your potential. And one thing that I feel that my audience really connects with me about is empathy and, and really taking the time to just understand how to navigate through hardships. And that is something that I speak about a lot. When I mentor and when I speak to crowds as well. It's, it's the power of overcoming challenges. Taking the time to go the extra mile, learning how to believe in yourself, when a lot of people don't believe in you. Taking the time to cultivate your mindset, when you are in a very, very, very dark place. These are all the things that I feel my audience relates with a lot, because a lot of my mentees, one thing that I've realized in regards to a common theme is is all of them are intelligent, all of them are capable. But there are life situations and challenges that people go through that make things less than ideal, someone may go through a layoff someone may have a death in their family, someone may have gone through trauma. And oftentimes, it's very, very easy for people to lose hope in themself. You know, and and there is that life challenge, right? A toxic job, a toxic workforce, whatever the case may be. So in regards to my mentorship, and with my public speaking as well. It's not just so me teaching you how to find a job, it's me giving you the tools to allow you to navigate through your emotions to allow you to find your why to find your passion to find what makes you spark. And, you know, make you go after that. So so I feel like that's a very important critical theme. Especially, and what I discuss on a day to day basis,

Michael Hingson 44:36so what kind of tools do you give people? Um, so you talk about the fact that they face challenges and so on. What do you actually teach them in the way of tools to deal with that?

Christopher Hall 44:45Absolutely. So I teach them different things, primarily through affirmations. I teach them about the power of affirmations. The power of journaling, the power of taking the time to navigate through your emotions, and really take the time to write down how you're feeling? What are the challenges you're going through? And where do you see yourself going to moving forward? What are what are things that you want to start doing? What are things that you want to stop doing? What are things you want to continue doing as well. I talked to people about the power of mindfulness, and about the power of also meditation as well. You know, one thing that I'm very, very big on is spirituality, and how it helps people. More so with connecting with your True Self with who you are. And that is something that I really do feel, helps a lot of individuals as well, because everyone has a personal story. And everyone has a challenge and a struggle that a lot of people don't know about.

Michael Hingson 46:08Tell me, you've used mindfulness as a term a number of times, what does that mean? Exactly?

Christopher Hall 46:14Mindfulness just means being aware, at least for me, being aware of your emotions, and your thoughts, how they make you feel in that moment, and how they drive your behavior. So what are your patterns? When you feel stressed? What are your patterns? When you feel discouraged? And by patterns? I mean, what do you tend to do in that moment? What do you resort to? Water? How do you face it? What do you run away from? What do you incorporate in your day to day habits in your day to day life, things of that nature. Another part of mindfulness is how you make others feel. But in regards to one on one personable mentorship, I really concentrate on helping others really navigate how they feel with their own emotions, and how they navigate through that.

Michael Hingson 47:25Well, you keep pretty busy between speaking and working at Boeing and coaching. How do you do that? And keep up a work life balance? How do you find time to rest and rejuvenate yourself, if you will?

Christopher Hall 47:44Absolutely. So I do it through a couple of ways. And that's such a great question you asked Michael. I guess number one, I'm really, really passionate about mentorship and helping others. And I'm very passionate about bowing. So one thing that I feel that's great is that even if I do have a busy schedule, it doesn't exhaust me or drain me, I may feel tired, naturally. I may want to pause, take a break and you know, be re energized. But it doesn't drain me in the sense where I dread that I'm doing what I'm doing. I love everything that I do. So in regards to what makes me feel energized. There are a couple of things that do number one is music. I am a very, very, very big fan of all styles of music. I love to play the drums. And I've played them on and off for about 17 years. So you know listening to music in the car. While I'm taking a walk outside while I'm running, that that really helps me a lot. Speaking of taking a walk outside and running one thing that I love to do is I love to connect with nature. So I love to go for walks I love to hike. I love to explore new different neighborhoods, like just different areas in general, and that really energizes me. Another thing too is talking with with with great friends with amazing people. So it could be something as small as meeting up with a friend to grab lunch or dinner or playing basketball or watching a movie. Or or even doing something as simple as you know, staying on The couch and petting my cat. Right? Those are those are all the things that re energize me. And it makes me feel supercharged for you know, when I do the things that I need to do?

Michael Hingson 50:16Well, so what's your favorite place to go? You see you like to do a lot with nature and go places do you have a favorite place?

Christopher Hall 50:25Well, I, I usually don't like to give people favorite places where I like to go. But I guess one place that I used to like to go to, in Seattle was was was was a beach that I was at in Edmonds, Washington, where I used to live that. So as kind of like, a go to activity right after work, I would drive from my house and the beach would be about seven to 10 minutes away. And I would, you know, drive up, see the sunset, see the water, you know, come up to shore, you know, smell the air, see the mountains and the horizon? See, you know, the dogs playing, and that gave me a lot of peace. Right now, currently, I like to just, you know, walk in and run on a lot of trails. So I feel like that's, that's, that's my favorite activity. Oh,

Michael Hingson 51:35well, it gets you away from the other stuff. And it gives you time to think which is, of course, part of what I suspect that you're really thinking about and looking at is to get that time to decompress a little bit.

Christopher Hall 51:48Absolutely. Absolutely. For sure. So,

Michael Hingson 51:51you've talked about motivational speaking, and all that. And as long as you love to mentor, what advice do you have for someone who might want to become a motivational speaker or a coach?

Christopher Hall 52:03Absolutely, I would say, take the time to find out what you really love. Number one, what you are really good at or something that you feel like are starting to get good at, and take the time to really study that craft. I know this may sound like very generic or cliche advice, but taking the time to learn from others, right? That could be through reading a book, checking out a YouTube video, you know, reaching out to someone on LinkedIn that inspires you just to learn more about them and have a coffee chat with them. That can really allow you to grow and learn more about a specific space. And it could really inspire you to try new things. And go ahead and try them. That's, that's, that's really the most important part, take action and do. And I know that this is something that I was personally struggling with, for a long time, and I still do struggle with it transparently, you know, in my journey, sometimes you ask yourself, like, oh, my gosh, I really want to do this, that and the third, where do I begin? And you know, the answer to that is, you just need to start, start very, very small. And it can be something as you know, offering to volunteer at an elementary school or middle school. Volunteering to speak at a nursing home, volunteering to speak at your alma mater, like in college, maybe speaking at an organization that you were a part of on campus. All of these things can allow you to grow and learn and get more experienced, so you feel comfortable with speaking. And that's how you're able to grow in in regards to mentorship. Just take the time to mentor someone. It could be something as simple as mentoring your friend when it comes to their resume, giving them a mock interview, giving them advice on what are some of the things that work for you. That help you get a full time job. And just mark just start small and work your way up. There's no such thing as as an overnight success. You know, for for me, career coaching is is something that I've been doing for six years. Close to six years, November would be six and By all means, I'm not perfect at it. But I know that I'm getting better every single day. So it's, it's practicing taking action and putting yourself out there,

Michael Hingson 55:09which makes a lot of sense, practice is the only way you're going to really get better. And thinking about what you do. You're absolutely right. So what for you? What are your future or your future aspirations for working as a motivational speaker? And as a coach, and just as important, what are your aspirations for life at Boeing?

Christopher Hall 55:35Absolutely. So I would say, aspirations in regards to life of Boeing, I'll start with that is take the time to, you know, work hard and really grow in my field. That is something that I'm very passionate about, I would say, long term, I really want to get into sales, at Boeing sales and marketing, that is, that is the space that I'm very passionate about. And, you know, grow, have the opportunity to collaborate and, and just have the opportunity to work with clients. I love working with people. So so that's something that I'm very inspired about. So that's, that's on the buying side, in regards to motivational speaking, and in regards to career coaching, I would say really take the time to continue helping more people. I really want to make more content online. I've been starting to post videos more on my tic tock and by all means they are not perfect. But I've been but I've been taking action. I have an account called Chris underscore Rangan ra n Gln. So I've been posting a couple of tech talks. And I want to do more of that. I also intend on posting more YouTube videos, that is something that I'm very passionate about in regards to content creation. And I want to cultivate my own website, I want to build my own website, around career coaching, around public speaking. And I guess it's not I guess, the goal is to hopefully, you know, a very big goal is hopefully to have the opportunity to be flown out, to speak at a university or add an organization internationally. And be paid for it. So so so so that is the goal. That is the aspiration. And that is something that will take work, it will it will take a lot of time to get there. But it's something that I'm very passionate about.

Michael Hingson 58:06Well, I hope that somebody listening to unstoppable mindset might find your story and all the things that you have imparted to us relevant and maybe invite you to do that very thing. We can certainly help for that.

Christopher Hall 58:20Thank you. I appreciate that.

Michael Hingson 58:22How do you how do you want to be remembered for your speaking and coaching careers in your time at Boeing? What what do you want your legacy to be?

Christopher Hall 58:33Wow. I love this honestly been thinking about that question. For for for a couple of weeks, actually. I would say I want my legacy for speaking to be

Christopher Hall 58:54Wow. You know, Christopher was someone that gave me hope. When I did not believe in myself. He took the time to inspire me and because of him, I'm better and I'm striving to make you know other in my life better. I would have to say that is that is a very, very big inspiration for me because I always aspire and try my utmost best to share love. To share positivity. I think love is so important because there's a lot of hate in the world. There's a lot of fear in the world. There's a lot of destruction in the world. So being able to share, you know, love and light is something that I'm very inspired by. For work. I want to be remembered as someone who just shared you know Over emotional intelligence, and positivity, I want people around me to feel inspired to become their best version of themselves. I want people to feel, you know, app peace and feel happy and feel encouraged to take on more work, I want people to, you know, feel motivated to take on extra projects and to really believe in themselves. So, in regards to work wise, like, I don't necessarily have, you know, a tangible goal of, Oh, I wanna, you know, sell 3500 airplanes, or things of that nature, of course, that would be great. But for me, I want to be remembered for helping others. And really helping others, I guess, just to elaborate on that more, helping others find, you know, that positivity within them, helping people find, you know, their inspiration within them feeling inspired. So, so I would say those, those are the two things.

Michael Hingson 1:01:26Well, it doesn't get better than that, and great aspirations, and I, and I hope it works. You clearly can do it, you're very articulate about what you think. And I really love a lot of the, the different kinds of pieces of advice that you've given us today. So I want to thank you for that. If people want to reach out to you as a coach, or to explore you speaking, where they are. And you know, I want I want the same thing, being a keynote speaker and a public speaker, but you know, this is you. So if people want to reach out to you, how do they do that?

Christopher Hall 1:02:03Absolutely. So there are a couple of ways you could do that. You could reach out to me via LinkedIn. My LinkedIn would be provided, but my handle is Christopher Rangon H. Another is via my Calendly if you're interested in one on one mentorship, you could raise search calendly.com/christopher-rangon r a n g o n slash mentorship. In addition to that, feel free to follow me on Instagram and on Tik Tok. Both of my handles are Chris, c h, r i, s, underscore Rangon. R A N, G O N and more for my YouTube channel. Feel free to follow me at skateboard. C R H 12. Yep, I created that account when I was into skateboarding. And I was 12 years old, hence, hence the user name skateboard. CRH 12.

Michael Hingson 1:03:16Cool. Well, Chris, I really am grateful and honored that you came and spent time with us today. And I hope people do reach out to you. And I hope that people will reach out and let us know what they thought of the podcast as well. You can reach me, Michael hingson at M i c h a e l h i at accessibe A C C E S S I B E.com. Or go to our podcast page www dot Michael hingson m i c h a e l. h i n g s o n.com/podcast. Wherever you're listening, please, we really would appreciate it if you would give us a five star rating. We are very grateful for your ratings and your comments. And we would greatly appreciate you doing that for us. We'd love to hear from you. I know Chris would love to hear from you. And we would appreciate both Chris, you and anyone out there listening. If you know of anyone else who we ought to have as a guest on unstoppable mindset, please let us know or email with introductions and we would be very happy to reach out we respond to everything as soon as I see it. So we will definitely respond. But again, Chris, I want to thank you for being here with us. And for all of your time and for all the wisdom that you imparted with us today. We're really grateful for it and thanks again.

Christopher Hall 1:04:42Thank you so much for having me. Really appreciate it. Michael, thank you.

Michael Hingson 1:04:49You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visitwww.accessibe.com. AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again

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Did you know that different kinds of sound can effect our bodies, emotional well being and everything about and within us? Meet Sharon Carne who today is an incredible sound wellness expert. Sharon will tell us how she always has had a love of music. She learned classical guitar and eventually secured a degree in music. Her journey to that degree is an amazing one. She was clearly, as you will hear, absolutely fixated on and committed to securing that degree.

She taught Music for some thirty years. Along the way she began to take an interest in sound, music at first, and then other sound that could help people heal many things. Some 15 years ago she and her husband began the Sound Wellness Institute. Sharon retired from teaching full time in 2016 and now devotes her full time to the institute to teach and help others through the use of sound.

Our discussion is, to me, quite inspiring and informative. I believe you also will learn a lot from what Sharon has to say. Along the way, please visit www.soundwellness.com to learn more about Sharon’s work. At the end of our episode Sharon offers some free gifts. We have put links to them in our cover notes.

About the Guest:

Sharon Carne, BMus, M.F.A., Director of Training and Program Development for the Sound Wellness Institute, is an author, international speaker, musician, recording artist, reiki master, sound healer and publisher. In addition to almost 30 years as a faculty member of The Conservatory, Mount Royal University, Sharon spent about 20 years doing personal research and formal training in Sound Therapy and Sound Healing.In 2008, Sharon was invited to participate as a facilitator in a study on stress reduction sponsored by the Integrative Health Institute at Mount Royal University. She developed a program for the study using a variety of ways sound and music relieves stress.Sharon is the founder of Sound Wellness, the Sound Wellness Institute and co-founder of the Emergent Workforce, the most recent expansion of offerings through the Sound Wellness Institute. Through the Sound Wellness Institute, she developed programs and training for holistic practitioners. Sound Wellness is now its own modality and practitioners receive the highest level of tested competency training in Canada in using sound and music to support their practice. The Emergent Workforce programs have been developed because of requests and interest from the business world.

Ways to connect with Sharon:

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/christopherrangonh/

Calendly: (To book a 1:1 Mentorship Session)https://calendly.com/christopher-rangon/mentorship

TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@chris_rangon/

Youtube: https://youtube.com/@skateboardcrh12

Instagram: https://instagram.com/chris_rangonhttps://www.instagram.com/christopherrangonspeaks/

Gifts for your listeners

1. Nervous System BalanceA 4-minute track of tuning fork sounds. Listen to the track once in the morning to start your day with calm and focus. https://soundwellness.com/balance/
2. Woodland SongA 60-minute recording of a forest creek and birdsong. Play quietly in the background when you are working to keep your body and nervous system calm and your mind alert. https://soundwellness.com/woodlandsong/

About the Host:Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.

Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children’s Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association’s 2012 Hero Dog Awards.

https://michaelhingson.comhttps://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/https://twitter.com/mhingsonhttps://www.youtube.com/user/mhingsonhttps://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/

accessiBe Linkshttps://accessibe.com/https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBehttps://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/

https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/

Thanks for listening!

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Transcription Notes

Michael Hingson 00:00Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visitwww.accessibe.comto learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.

Michael Hingson 01:21Well, welcome to another episode of unstoppable mindset. Here we are once again. And it's always fun to be here. I love interviewing and and conversing more than interviewing with lots of different people. And today we have Sharon Carne as our guest, who is the founder of sound wellness and one of the cofounders of the sound wellness Institute. She's going to tell us more about that. She's going to talk about things I've known for a while that is the truth of how sound can affect us and does affect us. But she's going to be the one to talk about that because she's the expert, of course. So anyway, we will get to that. But I want to first welcome you, Sharon. Thank you for joining us here on unstoppable mindset.

Sharon Carne 02:06Thank you so much, Michael, what a delight to be here to be able to share a little bit about sound. Well,

Michael Hingson 02:14that is, of course a lot of what podcasts are all about and and hopefully we can make it all sound reasonably decent as it were. But why don't we start maybe by you telling us about kind of the early Sheeran growing up in some of those kinds of things to sort of set the stage for what we're going to do later.

Sharon Carne 02:30Oh my goodness, I've had music in my life all my life as long as I can remember Michael, and it probably from my mom singing. We used to my dad was in the armed forces here in Canada radar technician. So we traveled long distances in the summer to go visit family and mom would sing all the way across the country. And we had our favorite songs. And then that led to singing and choirs sang in church choirs, school choirs, as long as I can remember, oh, one day when I was or at Christmas time when I was 16 years old, there was a guitar under the Christmas tree. And from having grown ups, mostly singing, playing a little bit of recorder, that guitar was such a fun thing. Oh my gosh, we were so lucky. We had a guitar teacher half a block away. And so I signed up for lessons right away. He just happened to be a classical guitar teacher. And so he started me on that and inspired me with every single lesson was playing recordings of some of the masters and classical guitar and I just fell in love with it. Totally fell in love with it. And it's interesting how sometimes you dropped something as you get focused on something else when I went off to university, and it came back in a big way later.

Michael Hingson 04:04I I know exactly the kind of thing that you're talking about. We moved to California when I was five. And it was the first trip I really remember although I think we've probably we probably did some driving around before then. But my dad liked to sing and he was a fan of Old Country and Western songs. I mean, we're talking about back in the country western days have 40s and 50s and so on. And he even yodels a little bit. So he's saying a lot. And we we got to enjoy that and always loved it when as he was driving, he would sing. And then he he also did have a guitar. He had an old Martin grand concert guitar from 1940. He got it by training something for it and I actually still have it. But he would occasionally get it out and play so I know what you're talking about. I know the excitement and the feeling that you had

Sharon Carne 05:01Oh, what a beautiful thing to have still Michael, my goodness, great memories.

Michael Hingson 05:07It's in the guitar is an incredibly rich sounding guitar. Of course it's it's not an electric guitar at all. But the sound is just very rich. It's a very full bodied sounding guitar. It's a lot of fun. Anyway, so you took lessons and you, you said that it came back to to be something good for you later on. Hmm.

Sharon Carne 05:33It did. And so and in a way that wasn't quite expected to because I went off to university, and I did well in high school in sciences and maths. So majored in in math and sciences at university and it did not go well. It did not go well. So I, I left university after the first year in registered in Teachers College at the time, and did one year at Teachers College and ended up teaching in a tiny town in northern Ontario. And the love of music continued there by joining the Town Choir, there was an amazing music teacher in our tiny town, we put on shows, we did concerts all around the area. And my interest in the guitar, which had been put away for a few years while I was doing this, at least two years, came back again. And part of my finishing my degree at university, I took summer courses. And in the second summer course I signed up for a music history course. And oh my goodness, it lit a fire under me like nothing I've ever experienced before. So I went into the professor at one of the professors at the end of that course. And I said, What do I have to do to get into this university as a music major. And so he told me, I needed this level of playing, and I needed this level of music theory. And I said, okay, and off I went. It took me two years, but I got entrance requirements to the university to get in as a music major. not expected. It was such a fascinating, fascinating fire. That was the passion that was that was lit at that time. I just had to continue.

Michael Hingson 07:30So what did you have to do? You miss mentioned the level of playing what does that mean?

Sharon Carne 07:38Well, in Canada, they have an examination system through the Royal Conservatory in Toronto. And so I needed to play I needed to have an exam at the grade eight level at the time, along with the the theory that was required music theory that was required for that level. And I had had a year and a half of guitar lessons. So it was it was an accomplishment to to find a teacher from. And I was teaching in a tiny town in northern Northern Ontario, the closest teacher who could teach me at that level was an eight hour drive away. And so and I had no car, so I called him up and I said, I have to take lessons with you. I need a grade eight, in in classical guitar and what's involved in so I was teaching public school and in this tiny town, so on Friday night, I'd help on the bus and be on the bus all night, get to the city where the guitar teacher lived, have my lesson that morning, hang around the bus station the rest of the day. I'd take the bus all night to the back home again on on Saturday night. And I did that for two years. And after two years, I did the exam and got my grade eight and all the theory required. So

Michael Hingson 09:11what does it mean though from a playing standpoint, to have a great eight What did what did you have to play or what did you have to show through guitar playing?

Sharon Carne 09:20It's it's probably a concert level to play pieces that are that are complicated enough to be able to sit in a theater and play a concert on the classical guitar at the beginning stages of that.

Michael Hingson 09:41Once you did it,

Sharon Carne 09:43I did it. I could not not do it. It was there was no there was no question. It was something I I had to do. I had to get in to the university and get a music degree. I just I'm not. It was a drive that I couldn't exist. lane?

Michael Hingson 10:02Well, but it was your drive. And that's what what really matters with a lot of commitment to take a bus all night and then do your lessons and then wait for the bus to return. So while you're waiting at the bus station, did you play the guitar?

Sharon Carne 10:15No, no. I don't remember do I know. I didn't practice? No, I didn't practice there I practice at home, there was a confidence level to because I was on an extremely accelerated study path to get to that level in two years.

Michael Hingson 10:37So he packed a lot into each of your your lessons, obviously. Mm hmm. That's cool. So then you got into the University? And how long were you there?

Sharon Carne 10:52Yeah, I will. I was there for three years, because I had already had one year of university, I could use those courses as my arts and science options. So I completed the rest of the music degree. It's a four year degree in those three years. And, and then it just felt like, there was so much more to learn. So I applied for a master's degree at two universities, and was accepted at both one of them in London, Ontario, and the other one in Minneapolis. So I went to Minneapolis, and did a two year master's degree after that. And then it kind of felt like I had a good grounding. I had such acceleration, that it felt like there was a lot of catch up to do. Also, after I got my entrance requirements anyway.

Michael Hingson 11:44What made you decide to go to Minneapolis as opposed to London, Ontario,

Sharon Carne 11:49the university in London, Ontario was mostly a music history degree and I loved music history, but I wanted to learn how to play the guitar better. And Minneapolis, the University of Minnesota there, they had a guitar teacher and an option to focus on performing, which is what I wanted to develop more skill in. So I did that.

Michael Hingson 12:14So was it all classical? Or did you branch out into other kinds of music at all,

Sharon Carne 12:20it was all classical.

Michael Hingson 12:23Which is probably not too surprising. That'd be the sort of level or orientation that that music degrees in would take and so on that they want you to really get the classical part of it and, and get all the challenges and nuances, because they're probably a lot more in from a guitar standpoint, nuances and, and sophisticated things to learn then going into more of the modern music, which isn't necessarily as much guitar being out in front as the only thing as with classical music, I would assume.

Sharon Carne 13:03There are certainly skills of nuances in a group and in popular music, however you write about it with the guitar and being the only performer at least when I hit solo, where that there was a lot of a lot of skill and nuance for sure.

Michael Hingson 13:18So when did you graduate with your music degree? What year was that?

Sharon Carne 13:23It was 90 Well, in the from Queens, I graduated in 1977. And then from the University of Minnesota in 1979.

Michael Hingson 13:34Okay, so you are now a master's degree holder and dealing with music. And you play the guitar pretty well. So then what?

Sharon Carne 13:47Well, I returned to Alberta, Canada, where I got a part time job at the college. They're teaching music teaching guitar as a start for what to do next, because I wasn't quite sure. And, and when when I was I taught at Red Deer college for two years. And in the meantime, I met my husband, and we got married, and he immediately got transferred to Houston. So it kind of ended my opportunity to teach it read your college and we ended up in Houston for about three and a half years.

Michael Hingson 14:30Wow. So what was he doing at the time that took you to Houston?

Sharon Carne 14:37Well, he was in the oil business, an engineer and so he was transferred there to do testing on oilfield equipment and quality kinds of things. So he's an engineer, so got into that field. And because I didn't have a visa to work in the United States. I we had our two children there In Houston, we have two boys. And I learned how to play another instrument called the lute, which was great fun, so it was filled with kids and lute playing.

Michael Hingson 15:13Did you do much guitar playing?

Sharon Carne 15:17I did some with what with a baby. And then with the second child who came along just before we move back to Canada, it what I did I did some guitar playing. And then also the lute. Hmm. Wow.

Michael Hingson 15:35Two different instruments indeed, though. Well,

Sharon Carne 15:37I think the Luton part was was healing for me, because I had started taking it when we got down there, there was a great loot teacher and I found someone who would make me a left handed load, I play left handed. So I had to have the instrument specially made. And my father passed away after we were down there for about a year. And I couldn't play my guitar. I couldn't play it. So what I did is I played the lute, and learned more. Well played it more became more proficient on the lute. And doing that for the next probably nine to 12 months. Michael was really healing for my heart, and then I could pick up the guitar again.

Michael Hingson 16:29Well, so you, you had three and a half years in Houston, then you move back to Canada back to Alberta. Uh huh. And then what did you do?

Sharon Carne 16:42Well, we moved, we moved into Calgary, Alberta. And after the kids were a little bit older, about a year after we moved here, and we're still in the same house in Calgary, I applied, or I was asked actually to join the faculty of Mount Royal University. They didn't have any guitar teachers there that specialized in teaching young children. So I ended up there for almost 30 years, and teaching all ages from three years old up to in their 70s and really had a very fulfilling career with with doing something I really, really loved.

Michael Hingson 17:25You said you did that for 30 years.

Sharon Carne 17:29At Yeah. And then sound wellness came along. And it was a gradual shift into what I was doing now. And that was a bit of a surprise to wasn't something I hadn't expected. So it kind of it it started to grow. During my last five or so years of teaching at the Conservatory.

Michael Hingson 17:55Well, tell me a little bit more about that, if you will, the what, what started that whole thing, and what was the overall eventual cost for the shift?

Sharon Carne 18:06Oh, gosh, it probably started with, with innocent experiments. So teaching, teaching adult students, I had a group about eight, six or eight students at the time, who wanted to gain more confidence in performing so I, I ordered every book on stage fright that I could find and read them all and picked a whole pile of exercises that we could experiment, I called a coffee shop, to coffee shops in town and organize informal evening performances for everybody. And also art galleries. If they wanted music for the opening of an art show. It's another great opportunity, low pressure for people to just sit in and play background music. So we tried out a bunch of the exercises. And we found out that one of the ones that worked the best was imagining a color while we were performing. And the weird thing about it was that every time we did it, at least one person in the audience would get the color. I'll never forget that. I gave one concert in, in a town during this time we were exploring near here. And I chose one piece on the program to practice imagining the color with and this woman came up to me after the concert and she pointed to that piece on the program. She said Sharon, this piece was so beautiful. It reminded me of sitting by the ocean. The color was so blue. And I thought okay, this is no longer a coincidence. It had happened too many times. So I started really By doing my own research and asking questions like, What is it about sound that makes it a carrier for the lot? And of course, emotion? And what is it? That that? What how can it do that. So I got all kinds of books in the library ordered books and ended up studying with two of the pioneers in in America in sound healing a few years after that grant, so it's a gradual transition from what I was doing to how the interest in sound healing was really sparked.

Michael Hingson 20:40Well, love to hear more about that in terms of what it is what it does, and, and just your journey about all that.

Sharon Carne 20:52Well, sound healing is it's, oh, gosh, it's exploding all over the world. And they're still, it's still in a way being defined. As far as probably where it sits now is it's a modality. It's related to using the voice or frequency or sound tools like singing bowls, or music in order to stimulate a healing response in the body. And so it it is fascinating modality because of the wide variety of tools that can be used in order to stimulate that. And there's the at the time when I was becoming interested in sound healing, there weren't a lot of people teaching it. I did find Jonathan Goldman's with his intensive workshops, the where I attended, probably 20 years ago now. And and then studied with Tom Kenyon in Seattle, who is a psychotherapist who developed a technique for working with the voice and releasing emotional energy to stimulate that beautiful healing energy of the body. And it it was something that that fascinated me so much having spent a lifetime in sound, I had never really thought how powerful a tool it is to support the body in healing.

Michael Hingson 22:26So when you talk about sound healing, and I think there's a fair amount today of accepted science that it can help or cause different kinds of reactions in the body but what what does it heal

Sharon Carne 22:48well, I like to call sound food for the nervous system, and like junk food and good food and super food that we had junk sound that stimulates the release of stress hormones from the nervous system which the which increases the the, I guess, disease loader or stress load on the body, which can create disease and discomfort. The Good Food are things like major sounds that can help the body just go into the relaxation response that so many people need. There are there are several so many hormones that are released by the brain in the nervous system every time we experience sound and music, and four of them at least our our immune system boosters, then there's oxytocin, the bonding hormone, that one if for those people who love going to hockey games and football games when everybody's singing, we will we will rock you in in the stands for to support their favorite team that stimulates oxytocin which binds all the fans together along with the team and others dopamine and serotonin there's all kinds of neuro neurotransmitters that are stimulated from sound that that then go into the tissues of the body and stimulate that healing response depending where the intention is focused to.

Michael Hingson 24:19And when you talk about sound healing, you're talking about real physical healing. It isn't just a mental thing necessarily but real physical healing.

Sharon Carne 24:33Yes, there I can share a story of one of our calls where we have monthly calls for our practitioners and on this one call the topic was how to come up with a series of tuning fork sounds so we were studying tuning forks in that course and to support reducing pain or or helping you something to to heal and carry one of the practitioners had just had a rotator cuff injury that day, she had been to see her physiotherapist in, she described her pain level as a level nine out of 10. So very high pain level. And she was really uncomfortable on the call. So her question was how, how can I create a series? The wish was a topic? How do I create a series of tuning fork sounds? So I said, Carrie, how about we create a series of sounds to reduce the pain in your shoulder. So she, she recommended four different sounds that she felt would help her shoulder reduce pain. And what I did is I pointed the tuning fork, so we were all online. So I pointed the tuning forks to her shoulder, I pointed them to her image on the Zoom screen. And so we worked with the first one and then the second one. And she said, Well, the pain is probably about a level five. Now, when we completed me just pointing the tuning forks to her image on the Zoom screen is her pain level is down to a to two to three. And it didn't it got better over the next couple of days. She went to see her physiotherapist the next day. And she told me in a message after that appointment that her physiotherapist didn't see how that was possible that the pain can be reduced that much with with tuning forks, pointing them at hearing the sound and then pointing them to the person on to her shoulder on the screen. It was remarkable. And something that surprised me too, because I hadn't, I hadn't had the experience that powerful of using a tool I usually use with a person on their body to help reduce pain or bring more blood flow, those kinds of things. And yet it worked online. It was fascinating experience.

Michael Hingson 27:05Well, so that is in well, it's incredibly fascinating because you did it online. And I'm trying to think of the physics of it a little bit, pointing your tuning fork to the image, I guess, might to some degree, help focus the sound, but her image wasn't where the sound was coming from or starting from. So she had to take something in, within herself that also had to help that process, I would think

Sharon Carne 27:44very much so she was directing the sound to her shoulder. There were there were a few other on the call at the same time who held the intention of reducing pain because the goal was to reduce pain.

Michael Hingson 27:59Right. And so it wasn't just you producing the sound, but the listeners hearing that sound and directing it where they they wanted it or knew what had to go. That that makes some sense to be able to say, I'm directing the healing energy that I can feel to where I want it to go. Hmm, well, that is still pretty amazing. But it makes a little bit more sense. It isn't just the sound, as you can imagine, and as we all can imagine, it's also the mental commitment and the mental focusing that goes along with it. I wonder how much different it would have been if she had been in the room with you?

Sharon Carne 28:42That would be that was? That's a really good question.

Michael Hingson 28:46Yeah, how would you how would you project that that would have gone or have you ever had any examples similar where you actually worked with someone in the same room?

Sharon Carne 28:57Well, I've worked with clients in the same room with tuning forks and the singing the large singing bowls on the body. And it works pretty well the same way from what I've seen. And with with the tuning for hip pain, for example, with someone with with difficulty in moving, moving a joint or a pain or around either in the joint with where bones are rubbing together, there are always tissues around the joint that are compensating. So the tuning fork would be used in all of the connective tissue around the joint in order to help release the tension in the muscles and and then to reduce the pain that way and and then on the other side to the other side of the body, which often compensates. But the online is was so fascinating because it didn't have those elements of having the fork actually on the body and feeling the vibration of that sound going through the muscles in the tissue. Shoes?

Michael Hingson 30:00Well, or at least to a much lesser degree, the sound actually approached her hit the body because there was still a speaker and the sound was still there. But she was focusing it, which I'm sure had a lot to do with it as well. And she wanted to make it happen. And she did. Yeah, yeah. Which is, which is pretty cool. Well, so when did you actually end up leaving teaching and go full time into sound wellness and, and then eventually, I assume eventually, but starting the sound wellness Institute.

Sharon Carne 30:38That was a gradual journey to and it was it was probably sparked with a phone call that came from out of the blue Michael, I while I was still teaching at Mount Royal, I had finished my training with Goldman and Tom Kenyon, and had returned back to the conservatory, and I got a call from the director of the Integrative Health Institute at the University. And she said, Sharon, I hear you are into sound therapy. I said, yeah, it's been a very kind of my own private research topic for many years by then and fascinated with it. And she said, Well, I'd like to have you create a program to using sound therapy as intervention in the study on stress that we're sponsoring this year. And so I was delighted to take part in that I created the program. And it was so successful working with the people in my group that I created some wellness about a month after that, and that was in 2008, is when I did that. I left the Conservatory, I gradually my hours were becoming less and less with teaching music, and, and with sound wellness was becoming more and more so in 2016, I finally retired from the Conservatory, and focused on sound wellness, exclusively after that,

Michael Hingson 32:12wow. Well, it's always exciting and a challenge and an adventure to go off and start to do something really on your own.

Sharon Carne 32:22Hmm. There was another complicated Well, I guess another kind of events that were happening in our personal lives at the same time, is we went through eight years during those eight years of starting sound wellness of end of life care for both of its parents, and then my sister, one after the other. So it was it was a challenge sometimes to make sure that there was the there were our priority, and then still bringing some energy to sound wellness to help it grow. And it's interesting how, how these these things kind of happened together. And we were grateful to be able to support mom and dad and then my sister throughout that journey too.

Michael Hingson 33:22Were you able to use any of what you learned with sound wellness or sound healing to help them and work with them at all?

Sharon Carne 33:30We did and we're not quite as much with mom. She suffered a massive stroke and ended up on extended care. So it was a little harder there with dad. Mom was the first to pass away and when dad one of the things that we did with Dad is bring him to one of our courses. And he fell in love with the seeing bowls. And so we bought him a crystal bowl. He couldn't play the Tibetan bowls because he was shaky. He was 91 when he came to our course. And so he his hand was a bit shaky when he was trying to play the Tibetan bowl so the stick would Clank on the bowl. And so we bought him a crystal bowl in a strong base so it wouldn't tip over. And it has a saw a softer stick and an easier way to make the sound. So he said he played that every day before he went to bed and it helped him sleep better. So he loved that. And my sister had cancer and with her I would bring the she had tuning forks with her all the time to help with stimulating her immune system. And then I would come over especially after chemo and play the crystal bowls and it should that would help her pain level enormously and her discomfort level right after chemo.

Michael Hingson 34:54Tell me a little bit more about the singing bowls if you would, please

Sharon Carne 35:00Oh the singing bowls are there's two different kinds. There's what are called Tibetan or Himalayan singing bowls, which are metal and the old bowls and the handmade bowls have a lot of wavering sounds to them and a lot of different frequency levels. And so they are several things they do all those low wavering sounds when the bowl is on the body helps to release muscle tension. We teach a lot of massage therapists how to use the bowls on the body because that makes it easier for or less work for their hands and their arms to massage tissue. The bowl does a lot of that. And then the crystal bowls have more of a pure sound and one or two frequencies only not as many overtones and wavering sounds as the Tibetan bowls do. And Crystal works with intention in a more powerful way I find personally then the Tibetan bowls Do I have an old Tibetan bowl beside me here Michael? If you'd like to hear it, I can play it

Michael Hingson 36:10I would love to if you don't mind that would be great. Please bring

Sharon Carne 36:14bring it over a friend of mine nickname this incredible it's about 16 inch it's about 16 inches across and it could be several 100 years old who has a lot of beautiful sounds so here's how this

Michael Hingson 36:33how deepest the bowl or how

Sharon Carne 36:41we it probably goes down to I don't have Edie measured at all on his oscilloscope Pat program on the computer. It probably goes down into 20 hertz 30

Michael Hingson 36:53No, I mean but physic physically you said is 16 inches across but how deep is it from top to bottom?

Sharon Carne 36:58Oh go deep from top to bottom. Hmm, probably about seven inches. All right, it has around the bottom so a little tricky. Yeah. Okay. Okay, go ready for the sound? Yes, please. Okay, here it is

Michael Hingson 37:22Wow, okay.

Sharon Carne 37:24I need to I need to put on original sound here to take There we go. So if I can tap it again then just give more in sounds because zoom has a setting for sound that I didn't have on yet. Okay, so here we go

Sharon Carne 38:00it'll go on and on and on it will

Michael Hingson 38:02so several reactions one going back to the person with the sore shoulder I can see how even though it was online the richness of the tone in your right when you change the zoom setting it made all the difference in the world but how that coming through the speaker could especially depending on the microphone but still be something that would be very usable online because the the the audio was a very full rich tone from lows to highs as you said Ed, I'm sure measured it with an oscilloscope that gave a spectrum there but I bet somebody who was in a remote place would get a pretty good range as well again, it's always a question of how good the microphone is but you seem to have a pretty good microphone there.

Sharon Carne 39:04Yeah, we invested in in a good quality microphone because I work with sound online and one of the things I wasn't quite sure about Michael is I started doing sound baths online sound bath this is a an experience with several different bowls and sounds and to a group of people and I've played with doing them online for about a year before I started doing them more regularly, and it blows me away hearing the response from people and how effective they are online. I've done many of these events in person so they're they're powerful in person and I wasn't sure about online but after the experience with carry on the the feedback from the people who've been attending the online sound baths, I'm I'm still in awe for the response it creates Send people.

Michael Hingson 40:01Again, as I think about it, I guess I'm not too amazed because you've got a good audio source that is collecting the sound. And that's got to have a lot to do with it. Because if you don't have good audio, then you won't produce good audio at the other end, but you clearly do. But still, it is kind of wonderful that you're able to do this virtually as well as work with people in a in a specific physical location. What? How does how does sound healing actually heal? I know you talked about re producing or releasing different kinds of chemical reactions in in the body is that mainly what it is? Or are there other nuances to the whole concept of sound healing?

Sharon Carne 40:54Well, it it stimulates the nervous system to release hormones and neurotransmitters that support the healing of the body's own way of healing. Also for for the large bulls that using them on the body helps to release muscle tension, which releases emotional energy that sitting in the muscles and releases the muscles themselves. And, and I like to to, to also say that sound doesn't really heal by itself, it stimulates the natural healing ability of the body, because the body knows how to do that. And so it because sound is felt in every molecule in every cell, then it It stimulates the body in so many different ways in so many different levels.

Michael Hingson 41:47And that is kind of what I was getting to so it's you know, because it's not a magical thing at all. But it is a part of the whole process. And I think as I've said, we've known about the concept that people react to sound and have reacted to sound in various ways, for a long time, and we've known it, but it's great to see that it's being used in such a wonderful way to help heal. Will most anyone react to the sound that you just did with that old Tibetan bowl? Or do different people react differently to different bowls that I assume have different kinds of sounds?

Sharon Carne 42:27Absolutely, we all respond to sound we can't not respond to sound, but we all respond uniquely. And it could be that that that sound of that bowl, several people wouldn't be able to, wouldn't be able to stand it at all. And one of the things we found with with sharing sound, and options, different options you can use to stimulate that healing with groups of people. And one of the things that's so fascinating is that one person will say, Oh my gosh, that feels so good. I relaxed, my heart beats down, I feel so much better. And the person beside them was ready to leave the room because it graded them so much. They couldn't stand the sound. And the person beside them would have well it was so so I didn't like it as much as she did when not I didn't hate it as much as he did. But so it's it's so unique. And that's the part that's fascinating is we all respond to sound and many of us have our own intuitive ways. The music we love to listen to, that helps us to feel better, is an intuitive way because we respond we know how we respond to that. And part of branching out into other types of sound is to explore how it makes you feel because it's different for everybody.

Michael Hingson 43:48So clearly everyone is sort of, in a sense differently wired for sound although we're all wired for sound in one way or another so as you said different people are going to react to different bowls or to different techniques or different I guess it's fair to use the word technologies that you use to produce sounds when you when you played the bowl. Did you just tap the bowl with a stick or with some something? Is that what you need to do or?

Sharon Carne 44:16Yes, I have a gong mallet that has a felt head on and love to tap the mole with that. It because when you tap the ball with a gong mallet, the ball responds almost like a gong. It comes it it plays all soba at so many different frequency ranges from really low frequencies to high overtones.

Michael Hingson 44:36Yeah. And also, it's it's easier on the bowl as well. You're not using some hard stick that can damage it over time.

Sharon Carne 44:48For sure, yes.

Michael Hingson 44:52Well tell me. So this kind of brings up something that you just mentioned brings I'm so different people like different kinds of musics and so on. And obviously, the sounds that we hear, can and do in one way or another stimulate our health. We all like different kinds of music. And I think there are some of us I'm and I'm one of them feels that there are some kinds of music that are just a lot of noise. And they're very loud. And they're very obtrusive. And it's not what I like in music, but I'm assuming that you would say, but for some people, those are okay, or is there? Is there some sort of music that really is just kind of not good at all? That it's, it's just too jumbled and doesn't really help? Or is that a fair thing to say?

Sharon Carne 45:46It's a fair thing to say, Michael and, and this, this one, I can share a story about our son, our younger son, and he is a heavy metal fan. And Ed and I are not heavy metal.

Michael Hingson 46:01I'm not either. And they're just a Frank Zappa. But anyway,

Sharon Carne 46:09I know, when he would buy, buy a record in those days, they were there were records or CDs, I think we're just coming out. Anyway, I have to always check the words, he always chose bands that had positive messages. Fortunately, some of them do not. And when he was 16, he went into a clinical depression. And we took him to the doctor, the doctor gave him medication, which he took one of and said, Mom, I don't like the way I am on this medication, I'm gonna throw it all out. So I said, Okay. And what he did to heal himself, of that depression, was he when he would come home from school frustrated or angry, or whatever mood he was in, he'd run up to his room, slam the door, like a lot of teenagers do. And then he would put on his music, angry music really loud. And so Ed and I had to plug our ears and let him do that. After a few months, he he will, even after just listening to 20 minutes of that 15 minutes of that he was feeling better it for him for him, and helped him to process that out of his system. And with some people, it increases that, which is not a good thing. For for Matt, it helped him process that and it helped to heal him. And so I don't I pause when it comes to making a judgement about a music like that. Because for Matt, I know, it was very much a part of his healing. Well,

Michael Hingson 47:47and that's why I asked the question, because different people like different music. And what I was curious about is basically what you said that doesn't mean that that music can't be helpful or be good for them. Although turning some of that heavy metal music, very loud. Must have some effect on the eardrums after a while to.

Sharon Carne 48:11Oh, yes. Yellow. Yes. And that's where safety comes in. Because yeah, yeah. I industry says that it sustained sound in the work environment can be no louder than 85 Hertz. And a rock concert is about 100 decibels. Thank you. Yes, our rock concert is over 100 decibels usually. And so it is definitely doing damage.

Michael Hingson 48:36The other side of that though, is that the people who are playing in the bands are behind the speakers, so they don't get hit by it as much, which is a point that someone made once we were discussing that very thing. How come the people who are playing don't get deaths? And the answer is because they're behind the speakers, and they're not getting the blast of the louder sounds, but nevertheless, it's still there. And I have never liked really loud music. I went to a concert in 2019. It was Pentatonix, the, the, the vocal group, and they're amazing. They are although I like straight, no chaser even more, but that's okay. They're a group of 10 guys from Indiana. The problem for me with the Pentatonix concert, and I loved it. But unfortunately, I was sitting almost right below a speaker so it was just louder than I liked and I wasn't able to move. But they did one song where they turned off all the microphones. And it was it was exactly as I imagined it. It sounded the same as what they did with the microphones on except just not nearly as loud and it to me sounded a lot better, but they're an amazing group. They were absolutely fun to listen to even though it was loud

Sharon Carne 50:00Hmm, yes. And one of the things our son did, he joined a couple of bands, he plays electric guitar. So when he was playing in the heavy metal bands he got earplugs made that he would put in his ears so that, that being around the sound over and over again, the level of all it wasn't as damaging. So he still uses Wi Fi is goes to a concert or even goes to the hockey game. We have loud fans here in Calgary for the hockey team, so he'll wear his earplugs at the hockey game.

Michael Hingson 50:31I went to Daytona, the Daytona Speedway in 2011, the National Federation of the Blind was demonstrating the first vehicle that a blind person could drive not an autonomous vehicle, but actually it provided the information so a blind person could sit behind the wheel. And they literally drove it around the Daytona Speedway, if you want to see it. It's at www dot blind driver challenge.org. And Mark Riccobono, who's now the president of the National Federation blind literally drove around the whole Daytona Speedway, traveling through obstacle courses and other things and passing a vehicle. But after that, and it was about four hours before the Rolex 24 race began in January of 2011. When that race began, they had passed out earplugs to us when I was a little ways away from the race track. But my gosh, was it loud, we we stayed for 10 minutes and then left because it was just way louder than a lot of us really liked even with earplugs.

Sharon Carne 51:33Wow. And how fabulous I had no idea that a car had been designed to allow a blind person to drive Michael, what great news. Well,

Michael Hingson 51:44it's got a ways to go. And I think that the whole concept of autonomous vehicles will help. But Mark drove this around the the entire racetrack he drove through a couple of obstacle courses of barrels. Then there was a van in front of him it threw boxes out of the back and he had to avoid those and so a lot of randomness to it. It was really pretty cool. But WWW dot blind driver challenge.org. It was it was really kind of fun to be there and be a part of that. But not when the race started. That was a little noisy for us.

Sharon Carne 52:17Oh my.

Michael Hingson 52:21So we we all have minds to one degree or another. But eventually we all get very busy. We get our minds get very busy just involved with every little thing. Are there sounds and ways that we can slow that mind down and get people to step back or just slow down a little bit?

Sharon Carne 52:42Oh, yes, there's a couple in particular, a couple of I could recommend one of them. It has to do with how the body responds to music and the beat of the music. For example, if you go into the grocery store, and there's music always playing, it takes only about four to five minutes for your heartbeat to match the beat in the music. That's called entrainment. Now knowing that your heart wants to try to match the beat of the music, then knowing also that a relaxed heartbeat is around 60 beats per minute, you can make your own playlist of music that will help calm the heart down. And when you calm the heart down, you calm down your breathing and your brainwave state. So it calms the mind down to in fact, I found out recently, Michael that YouTube has 60 beats per minute playlists and a whole pile of different musical styles. What a great tool for people to use. It's fabulous.

Michael Hingson 53:44I have to go check that out. I'm I'm assuming though, Matt felt getting to a slower heartbeat and so on somehow came with heavy metal.

Sharon Carne 53:56No, no, that's the reverse. If you're driving and you need to you need to stimulate the mind. Then having music with a lively beat a faster beat can help to keep you more alert. I love lively Latin guitar and big band dance music is another one of my favorites for driving. Yeah, I love those.

Michael Hingson 54:20I'm a great big band fan. I love a lot of from the 40s and 50s the swing era and so on Benny Goodman but others as well and even more recent album when Linda Ronstadt did a couple of big band albums that were great. Ah, cool. So, but I hear what you're saying. Still. It's it's, it's different for everyone though. But I'm assuming you're saying that it's pretty standard that that we, whether it's the grocery store, whatever our heartbeats typically will match themselves to the beat of different different sounds depending on where we are and what We're doing is that pretty universal?

Sharon Carne 55:02That's pretty universal. And there are genres of music applied psycho acoustic music for one of them that is based on manipulating or changing the heartbeat, and it to create the relaxation response or the reverse to keep the body relaxed and then to keep the mind alert.

Michael Hingson 55:21So people are, I'm sure asking and we've sort of alluded to it a number of times. We know there's healthy eating I'm assuming there's healthy and unhealthy sound besides just being too loud or is that true?

Sharon Carne 55:40Definitely the they're unhealthy sound like traffic noise. There are studies especially from the European Union showing how people who live near mirror major freeways, it has become a major health problem, because the sound of traffic consistently can raise the heartbeat and and also stimulate stress hormones so that that's more like junk sound, unhealthy sound, healthy sound. The three healthiest sounds actually for the body and human are wind, water and birdsong. These are natural sounds that we evolved with? Well, their honor, we have them. Water is essential. So when we have water sounds around us, I think the nervous system response that I'm safe, I can relax there's water is essential for life. Then we have wind which helps us get our bearings, and then we have birdsong. And birdsong affects the nervous system and a couple of ways. birdsong helps us feel safe when the birds are singing, because our ancestors when the birds stopped singing in the forest, they knew there was danger nearby. Another thing that the birdsong does is it stimulates the brain and the nervous system, high sounds will stimulate the brain. And so it can help keep you alert when you need to need to get a lot of work done or have a deadline or something like that. So really healthy sounds

Michael Hingson 57:12I've enjoyed generally being close to rainstorms. Listening to the rainfall, or and sometimes thunder if it's not too loud when it gets to be too explosive, the sound but I have found that rain or gentle storms like that can be very pleasant.

Sharon Carne 57:35Oh, me too. And waves at the surface. Yeah. Yeah. Another one.

Michael Hingson 57:40Have you ever heard of an album I think it's by 101 string is called one stormy night.

Sharon Carne 57:47I haven't heard of that one. I've heard of a couple of others that they've done with nature sounds in the background of the strings.

Michael Hingson 57:53Well, one stormy night is an album that that came about years ago, back when we still had LP discs right before. But somebody in the Los Angeles area recorded a rainstorm. And then they put it to music. They put different songs to different parts of it. And I've always found it to be a very pleasant thing. I actually discovered that it is available when I asked my little Amazon Alexa device to play it. And now I've got some decent speakers that I can project it through. It really sounds pretty good. And I find gentle summer rainstorms like that even with a little bit of thunder to be a pleasant thing. I've also been in storms where thunderclaps come right over our house and they're not quite as fun.

Sharon Carne 58:45No, they're not. We've had both. Yeah, I love the gentle summer rain storms too, or the wind blowing through the leaves

Michael Hingson 58:53are blowing through the leaves. We have wind outside right now. My little system tells me it's about 28 miles an hour. But I also have some wind chimes that someone gave me earlier this year or late last year, just after my wife passed and we put them up as the first time we put wind chimes here at the house but they're very, they're very pleasant. They're very soothing sounding. And so between that and the wind, it also gets kind of nice. And Victorville. There's usually a lot of wind so it's nice to have something that turns it into a little bit more pleasant sound.

Sharon Carne 59:29Huh beautiful. I love wind chimes too. I have them in the in the on our front porch that I just love the sound of them.

Michael Hingson 59:36We have this we have this on our backpack. Well our patio, it's on the side of the house, right outside my family room sliding doors so I can hear it most anywhere in the house, especially if one of the windows is open but I can hear it outside now from my office here and it's really kind of nice to hear them. Well Is there is there some last minute advice or thoughts that you might have for people listening to this and watching it on YouTube?

Sharon Carne 1:00:09Well, I think the main advice Michael would be to become aware of the sound around you because it's affecting you. The human being is so deeply wired to sound in so many ways from heartbeat to receptors in the cells to how it shifts your brainwave state so many different ways and of course, the nervous system. So become aware of the sound around you the music also, so that you start to get a sense of what feels right to you. And what is is good food for your nervous system. And

Michael Hingson 1:00:44feed your nervous system it's well worth doing. Well, I want to thank you for being here with us, Sharon, this has been a lot of fun. And I know you have given us some things too, that we can offer to people listening want to tell us about those.

Sharon Carne 1:01:04There's two things Michael that I've been I love to share. One of them is called it's a recording called the nervous system balance. And it's about a four minute recording. It's four different tuning forks sounds that are are created are these the series of sounds are created to calm the nervous system to settle the nervous system, calm down so that you can start your day from a good place. And so it's something I encourage people to download and play with find out because we are all new unique, find out if this will work for you. And if it helps make your day go a little bit better. The second one is two of the three nature sounds that we talked about. It's a beautiful woodland Creek, and the other one is birdsong. So it's quiet of playing quietly in the background allows the body to relax with the sounds of the water and the birdsong can create relaxation, but also stimulate the mind I like to have it on when I'm writing so so I can it keeps me the body relaxed and keeps me focused.

Michael Hingson 1:02:17And how do people access those,

Sharon Carne 1:02:21the their the nervous system balance is sound wellness.com forward slash balance. And then the woodland song is sound wellness.com forward slash woodland song All one word.

Michael Hingson 1:02:42There you go. Well, and people can go get those and download them and hope they will and I am going to do it. I like waking up to nice reasonably quiet sounds in the morning we used to live up in Northern California in an area of Novato, California called Belmar in keys which was designed to look like Venice, Italy. So every house was either on a lagoon or a waterway between lagoons and especially during the summer it was quiet outside, you wake up in the morning. Some of us like to sleep later than other people in the in the whole association. So we got to wake up to the sounds of boats going by our our house will have we would have the back sliding door and our bedroom open a little bit. And we could hear the boats going by and just all the pleasant sounds of the whole area with the lagoons and all that. And then of course all the ducks who came up because they thought that we should read them. That's a different sound. But we loved the Pleasance sounds of, of the boats and the water.

Sharon Carne 1:03:52Oh, how beautiful.

Michael Hingson 1:03:53So it was great. Well, I want to thank you again for being here. This has been absolutely a joy, you've been a joy. And I really appreciate you coming on to be with us. If people want to reach out to you and learn more about you and maybe explore ways that you can help them and so on. How do they do that?

Sharon Carne 1:04:14They could go to sound wellness.com or sound wellness institute.com.

Michael Hingson 1:04:22And there's contact information there.

Sharon Carne 1:04:24Yes, phone number, email, all of that.

Michael Hingson 1:04:28Great. Well, I really appreciate your time and you taking the opportunity in time to be here. It's now got to be close to dinnertime for you. Which is a different sound.

Sharon Carne 1:04:41Yes, it definitely is. My husband clunking away upstairs. I think Nick is cooking today. So thank you so much, Michael.

Michael Hingson 1:04:51Thank you. This has been a lot of fun. I hope you've enjoyed listening to us out there and that you will take advantage of the gifts and communicate was sharing it would be wonderful to do that. I would love to hear from you want to hear your thoughts your comments please feel free to email me Michaelhi at accessibe A C C E S S I B E.com. And or go visit our podcast page www dot Michael hingson.com/podcast where you can find all of our podcast episodes. Wherever you're listening, please give us a five star review. We really appreciate those reviews and thank you very much in advance for doing that. So I hope that this was worth your time. I really enjoy you doing it and Sharon I really once again want to thank you for being here and we really enjoy having you want unstoppable mindset.

Sharon Carne 1:05:40Thank you Michael.

Michael Hingson 1:05:47You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visitwww.accessibe.com. AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again

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Kelly Thompson comes from a multi-generation military family. Although, as she describes herself, she was a shy child who nevertheless wanted to follow in her parents’ footsteps and so joined the military at the age of 17. In high school she took military courses as part of her studies.

Even with all that military background in her family and in her studies she says she always wanted to write.

She retired from the military after eight years due to a broken leg that did not heal well. Kelly then went back to school as you will hear.She published her first book, Girls Need Not Apply, in 2019. It was about her life in the military. Her second book, Still I Cannot Save you, earlier this year. Both books have been quite successful. She is working on a third book, this time a thriller. I look forward to hearing more about it.Kelly has one of those indomitable spirits that, no matter what, keeps her going. She loves life as you will hear. I am sure you will be quite inspired by her attitude.

About the Guest:Dr. Kelly S. Thompson is a writer, educator and academic. She is also a retired logistics officer in the Canadian Armed Forces, medically released after an injury.

Kelly has an MFA and a PhD in Creative Writing, with research centered on representations of grief and trauma. She works as a mentor at the University of King’s MFA in Creative Nonfiction, lecturer, and author.

Her essays, poems, and fiction have appeared in literary magazines, trade publications, and anthologies, as well as publications such as Chatelaine, Maclean’s, the Globe and Mail, Toronto Star, _and more. Her memoir, _Girls Need Not Apply: Field Notes from the Forces, was an instant Globe and Mail bestseller and was listed as one of the top 100 Books of 2019 by the Globe and Mail. Her second memoir, _Still, I Cannot Save You: A memoir of sisterhood, love and letting go, _released in 2023 and was also an instant bestseller.

Ways to connect with Dr. Kelly: