Lobes and Robes: Recent Episodes
Center for Neuroscience and Behavior
Neuroscience for Everyone!
Advances in neuroscience have important implications for the development of policies designed to meet looming challenges in health care, aging, education, bioethics, child welfare, environmental and national security. Furthermore, addiction, violent crime, dementia, and obesity pose threats to our well-being that are unlikely to be addressed effectively without the translation of sound behavioral and neuroscience into effective public policy and law. Lobes and Robes, a new podcast developed by the Department of Neuroscience in cooperation with the School of Public Affairs and the Washington College of Law, brings scientists and policymakers together to address some of the most pressing problems of our time.
Lobes and Robes is produced by the American University’s Center for Neuroscience and Behavior shares dispatches from the intersection of law, science, and public policy.
In this new episode of Lobes and Robes, we are joined by Dr. Dennis M. Patterson, Board of Governors Professor at Rutgers Law School, to explore the concept of anti-reductionism in neurolaw, the human mind and brain, and the important distinction between conceptual and empirical questions.
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In this new episode of Lobes and Robes, we are joined by Dr. Troy Roepke, Professor at the Department of Animal Sciences at Rutgers University, to explore the harms and legal effects of defining sex as a binary, gender-affirming hormone therapy (GAHT), sex as a biological variable (SABV), and how gender biases affect scientific research and health outcomes, especially for trans persons and cis-gender women.
LobesAndRobes #Neurolaw #LawAndNeuroscience #LawAndScience
In this new episode of Lobes and Robes, we are joined by Dr. Christopher Sundby, Assistant PRofessor of LAw at the University of Tennessee College of Law, to discuss how neuroscience should be involved in reforming the rules of evidence, the present sense impression rule as a case study for testing psychological assumptions about lying, the possibility that some neurointerventions may reduce the need for imprisonment, and Professor Sundby’s proposed framework for the right to personality regarding neurointerventions in the criminal justice system.
LobesAndRobes #Neurolaw #LawAndNeuroscience #LawAndScience
We are excited to share a new episode of Lobes and Robes, featuring Dr. Teneille Brown, Professor of Law at the S.J. Quinney College of Law at the University of Utah, where she also serves as the Associate Dean for Research and Director of the Center for Law and Biomedical Sciences. She also teaches at the university’s Center for Health, Ethics, Arts, and Humanities. Professor Brown’s research is highly interdisciplinary, engaging with questions at the intersection of law, genetics, neuroscience, social psychology, philosophy, medicine, and ethics.
In this conversation, we discuss how jurors interpret foreseeability, group-level evidence vs. individual-level evidence, using brain imaging in the criminal context, brain death, what it means to be legally alive or dead in different states and countries, and whether it is possible to separate actions from mental states.
LobesAndRobes #Neurolaw #LawAndNeuroscience #LawAndScience
Kicking off Season 5 of Lobes and Robes, we are joined by Dr. Colleen Berryessa from Rutgers University to explore how neuroscience intersects with the criminal justice system. We discuss criminal justice, how biological characteristics can affect criminal sentencing, scientific literacy among jurors and judges, and many other interesting topics from her work.
LobesAndRobes #Neurolaw #LawAndNeuroscience #LawAndScience
In this final episode of Season 4, we welcome Gustavo Ribeiro, an associate professor of law at American University Washington College of Law, who specializes in evidence, civil procedure, and the philosophical dimensions of legal proof. Professor Ribeiro, who will become the new co-host of Lobes & Robes in Season 5, discusses the complex challenges of using scientific evidence in courtrooms.
Our conversation explores how law and science operate as different "epistemic cultures" with fundamental tensions: courts require finality and certainty, while science embraces uncertainty and ongoing revision; legal proceedings focus on individual cases, while science typically deals with group averages and generalizations. Professor Ribeiro explains the landmark 1993 Supreme Court case Daubert v. Merrell Dow Pharmaceuticals, which established criteria for determining when scientific evidence is sufficiently reliable for courtroom use, including testability, peer review, error rates, and general acceptance in relevant scientific communities.
The discussion addresses several pitfalls in the use of scientific evidence, particularly how jurors may overvalue technical testimony or struggle when faced with contradictory expert opinions. Professor Ribeiro highlights recent scrutiny of forensic science techniques, noting that while DNA evidence has generally proven reliable, many other forensic methods have been found lacking in scientific rigor.
We conclude the episode by examining the special concerns of using neuroscience evidence in court, including the "brain overclaim syndrome" where brain-based explanations may be given undue weight despite limited supporting data or flawed logic in connecting neuroscience findings to legal questions.
In this episode, we interview Dr. Jonathan Tubman, professor of psychology at American University, about his research on effective interventions for vulnerable adolescents. Dr. Tubman, whose interdisciplinary work spans multiple aspects of applied developmental psychology, highlights how adolescent development has transformed historically; whereas puberty occurred at 17-18 years old in the 1850s, today it takes place as early as 9-10 years old, even though adolescent economic dependence on parents sometimes extends well into the twenties. Our conversation explores how today's adolescents navigate dramatically different social landscapes than previous generations did, including in dating, sexuality, and identity formation. Dr. Tubman discusses his research aimed at developing brief, targeted interventions for vulnerable youth. We explore how LGBTQ+ youth face unique challenges in “coming out“ earlier in life than previous generations. Dr. Tubman describes his findings that intimate partner violence within sexual and gender minority communities tends to affect smaller subsets with multiple co-occurring problems, thus requiring comprehensive intervention approaches beyond simple safety planning. Throughout, Dr. Tubman emphasizes the importance of person-centered analysis to identify high-risk adolescents and develop effective targeted interventions for them.
In this episode, we welcome Dr. Adriana Galvan, professor of psychology at UCLA and director of the Developmental Neuroscience Laboratory. Dr. Galvan reveals how the adolescent brain is uniquely designed for growth and learning through a second wave of neuroplasticity. Dr. Galvan explains that the prefrontal cortex—responsible for emotion regulation and planning—continues developing into the early twenties. This prolonged development isn't a deficiency but an evolutionary advantage that encourages exploration and learning through experience. What adults perceive as risky behavior is actually essential trial-and-error learning that builds decision-making skills. Our conversation also explores why teenagers are intensely focused on social interactions and peers. Dr. Galvan discusses how neuroscience has informed legal considerations around adolescent responsibility. Finally, she presents a more nuanced take on recent narratives about youth mental health issues. Throughout the episode, Dr. Galvan presents adolescence as a vital, purposeful developmental stage necessary for becoming capable adults. This discussion offers valuable insights for parents, educators, and policymakers interested in understanding the remarkable adolescent brain.
In this episode, we welcome back Dr. Colin Saldana as our new co-host and delve into the fascinating intersection of neuroscience and criminal law. Our guest, Dr. Deborah Denno, an expert in the field, joins us to discuss her broad study of the historical uses of neuroscience in criminal cases. We explore a range of topics, including the way neuroscience has been used and misused in the courtroom; the role of neuroscience in evaluating questions such as mitigating factors and culpability in criminal cases; and the difficulties of translating scientific understandings for use in law by judges and juries. We look forward to the potential future impact of neuroscience on criminal law and consider both the promise and pitfalls of translating rapidly expanding neuroscientific knowledge for use in the courtroom. Join us as we unravel the complexities of this fascinating field and consider the future of neuroscience and the law.
This episode features popular culture critic Dr. Despina Kakoudaki, author of the book Anatomy of a Robot: Literature, Cinema, and the Cultural Work of Artificial People. Dr. Kakoudaki, a professor at American University, discusses how fantasy and science fiction imagine artificial persons. She discusses how literary and cinematic art depict machines as having human-like, or even super-human, intelligence and behavioral capabilities. In our wide-ranging discussion, we consider the implications of these ideas about the machines that science and technology are developing. We discuss how concepts of machines’ human-like tendencies are affecting current culture, definitions of personhood, and ideas about human evolution. We close with a discussion of how knowledge about the operation of the human brain has contributed to the development of artificial intelligence, and how, in turn, the development of increasingly sophisticated models of artificial intelligence may contribute to knowledge about the human brain.
This episode features leading researcher on therapeutic uses of psychedelics, Dr. Matthew W. Johnson of the Sheppard Pratt Institute for Advanced Diagnostics and Therapeutics. Dr. Johnson summarizes the current research on the potential benefits of psychedelics for treatment of depression, addiction, and other conditions; the known risks and benefits of such treatments; and Dr. Johson’s important work on developing best practice guidance in relation to safety, risk assessment, and ethics in psychedelics research and treatment. We discuss recent developments in the U.S. Food and Drug Administration’s (FDA) consideration of a request for approval of MDMA for treatment of post-traumatic stress disorder, the special problems the FDA faces in assessing psychedelics for possible therapeutic uses, and the dangers that continued unregulated uses of psychedelics pose in the absence of FDA approval and regulation. We end by hearing from Dr. Johnson about his future research plans.
The “gut–brain axis" is a system by which the gastrointestinal tract communicates with the brain. In this episode, Dr. Scott Kanoski, Co-director of the Diabetes and Obesity Research Institute at the University of Southern California, shares his research and expertise about the gut-brain system. He discusses how diet, hormones, and the millions of bacteria that comprise our gut microbiota act on this system. As he explains in this wide-ranging discussion, recent findings from his lab and many others are revealing how these signals affect the brain in ways that have profound impacts on appetite, cognitive functioning, and impulse control.
This episode features Dr. Francis Shen, a leader in the emerging field of “neurolaw,” which seeks to bring the insights of neuroscience and law together in ways that can be mutually beneficial to both disciplines. Dr. Shen shares his insights into some of the areas in which neurolaw shows great promise, including law and mental health, aging brains, brain injury, lie detection, and more. We discuss the need to train lawyers and judges on how to assess neuroscience findings and the different ethical requirements lawyers and scientists operate under, and end with Dr. Shen’s thoughts about neurolaw’s future.
The effects of consuming non-nutritive sweeteners on weight control and health and well-being have been a source of continuing controversy. Dr. Sylvetsky, a professor and scientist at the Milken Institute School of Public Health at George Washington University in Washington DC, talks with us about her research on the consumption of artificially sweetened food and beverages by children and adults. She discusses recent guidance provided by the World Health Organization about the use of non…
Alzheimer’s Disease and similar late-life dementias pose serious threats to human health and well-being. These cognitive disorders can be devastating not only for patients, but also for the family members and friends that care for them. Dr. Gayatri Devi, MD, a nationally recognized neurologist and author of the influential book, ”A Spectrum of Hope: An Optimistic and New Approach to Alzheimer’s Disease and Other Dementias,” shares with us her extensive knowledge about memory and cognitive dysfunction and her innovative treatment approaches. Dr. Devi proposes that precision medicine will be the treatment modality of choice in the future and that, through it, we will be seeing significant improvements in the quality of life of patients with Alzheimer’s disease.
The desire to lose weight is pervasive in our society. Some people want to lose a few pounds to look better while for many others weight loss can help to reduce serious threats to their health and well-being. Historically, dieting as a means of losing excess pounds, and keeping lost weight off, has produced disappointing results for many people. However, there are surgical and, more recently, pharmacological interventions that can produce significant and sustained weight loss. But are such treatment safe as well as effective? And how do they work? On this episode, Dr. Randy Seeley of the University of Michigan School of Medicine addresses questions about the effectiveness and safety of both bariatric surgery and the new GLP-1 agonist drugs (e.g., Ozempic, Wegovy, Mountjaro) in producing and sustaining weight loss.
This episode builds from Dr. Khohkar’s interview in our last episode in which he outlines the many ways in which discrimination and hate-based behavior have been shown to have negative effects on the brain, both for those subject to such behavior and perpetrators, as well as bystanders and others. In this episode we talk with expert psychologist Dr. Linda McGhee, whose fields of specialization include the treatment of the psychological effects of racial trauma. Dr. McGhee discusses her background, her current areas of focus, and the approaches she uses, including liberation-based trauma treatment. She also offers suggestions about how academic disciplines and other institutions can engage in self-assessment to improve opportunities for access and success for traditionally excluded outsiders including racial minorities and others.
In this episode, with neuroscientist and anti-discrimination advocate Dr. Jibran Khokhar, we explore the effects on the brain of experience with race-based and other identity group-based discrimination including Islamophobia. Dr. Khokhar discusses findings from neuroscientific, psychological and epidemiological studies that reveal the adverse health effects of experiencing such discrimination, including increased risks for depression, anxiety, stress and suicide. He also discusses evidence indicating that heightened activity in the amygdala, a brain structure associated with fear and anxiety, is a significant consequence of being indirectly exposed to such discrimination via the media or other sources. Based on these findings, taking care to avoid implicit bias and to promote racial, religious and other forms of inclusion and equity in academic settings and other institutions, may provide a way to address these sources of harm.
This episode puts previous guest Dr. Tara White in dialogue with Professor James May of Delaware Law School, an expert on human rights law and dignity jurisprudence. Along with our cohosts, Dr. White and Prof. May explore the many points of overlap between dignity neuroscience and the principles of human rights law. They discuss issues including human agency, the right to be free from fear and want, and the emerging consilience between the principles of human rights law and what science shows about the resources the brain needs for healthy development. The discussion ventures into future potential directions for inquiry highlighted in exploring these subjects together.
In this episode we interview Dr. Tara White, a neuroscientist who studies issues at the intersection of neuroscience and psychology, including how individuals make meaning and feel and act on a sense of agency in their lives. We focus on an exciting term Dr. White recently coined, “dignity neuroscience,” to describe the links between the findings of neuroscience about what conditions promote human development and learning and the human rights principles that international human rights law scholars have identified. We further discuss Dr. White’s view that there is an emerging consilience about the core concept of human dignity and explore how this idea might be converted into policy objectives.
Neuroscientist Dr. Laurie Bayet, a professor in the department of neuroscience at AU who focuses on the study of infant cognition, discusses her path-breaking research on the cognitive development of the infant brain. Dr. Bayet discusses her and others’ work on how babies see and come to understand the world around them. She explains some of the creative techniques used to study what infants are perceiving and thinking and describes some of the paths forward for future research and possible policy outcomes.
In this podcast, we meet Dr. Colin Saldanha, a professor in the neuroscience department at AU who talks with us about his research on hormones and the brain. He discusses the fascinating findings coming out about the role of estrogens in both male and female brains. Dr. Saldanha discusses hormonal change over the life span, the reasons cycling occurs in females but not males, and the similarities and differences in hormonal activities and brain structure, on average, in males and females. The conversation also turns to some of the connections between genetics, hormonal effects, and sex differentiation in the development of the fetus. Dr Saldanha talks about the importance of doing medical research on both males and females, noting differences in how males and females may process some pharmaceuticals as one example, and other topics.
Dr. Jay Schulkin, a guest speaker on the Lobes & Robes Podcast: Session 2, Episode 1, passed away recently after a short illness. He will be remembered as "an outstanding researcher, scholar, colleague, and friend" - Dr. Terry Davidson, Trone Family Eminent Scholar Chair in Neuroscience and Behavior Department of Neuroscience, American University.
This episode features Dr. Jay Schulkin, a noted author and neuroscientist with training in philosophy. We explore the connections between the development of neuroscience as a discipline and the rise of the classical pragmatist philosophers, including John Dewey, Charles Sanders Peirce, William James, as well as the proto-pragmatist jurist Oliver Wendell Jones, Jr. What are the connections between the start of experimental psychology in the U.S. and the rise of classical pragmatism? Dr. Schulkin discusses Holmes’ interest in behavioral sciences, statistical inference, rigorous experimental design, and the prediction of human behavior, including the actions of judges. We explore how one might draw the line between neuroscience and other disciplines. Finally we explore the perennial question: What are the alternatives to determinism as an orientation for neuroscience?
Can neuroscience help remedy discrimination against members of traditionally subordinated groups that are protected under U.S. anti-discrimination law? In this episode, the two podcast co-hosts, Dr. Terry Davidson and Prof. Susan Carle, engage in a friendly debate on the potential usefulness of neuroscience in developing knowledge about how discrimination occurs and how it might be ameliorated through policy interventions informed by neuroscience.
Foods that harm and foods that protect the brain. The focus of this episode is on the research of Professor Katie Holton, who hold joint appointments in the Department of Health Studies and the Department of Neuroscience at AU. Dr. Holton discusses with Professors Carle and Davidson, how foods containing high level of glutamate can have toxic effects on the brain--effects that have been linked to the occurrence of fibromyalgia and Gulf War illness. Combining her expertise in nutrition and in neuroscience, Dr. Holton explains her research which shows that a specially formulated diet that is low in glutamate can dramatically reduce the symptoms of both diseases. Dr. Holton also describes the types of food that contain both high and low amounts of glutamate and how some foods may protect against the neuronal damage produced by glutamate toxicity. More about Dr. Holton’s work can be found here: https://www.american.edu/cas/faculty/holton.cfm
This episode features AU Chemistry Professor Stefano Costanzi, an expert both on the harm chemicals pose to living organisms and global security policies aimed at protecting the public from those dangers. In conversation with Drs. Carle and Davidson, Dr. Costanzi discusses the gaps in current policies and practices that allow chemical weapons to proliferate as well as some of his ideas about solutions and tools to narrow those gaps. Dr. Costanzi’s work itself bridges the neuroscience and public policy divide, and in so doing he models how science and policy can be brought into communication with each other. More about Dr. Costanzi’s work can be found here: https://www.american.edu/cas/faculty/costanzi.cfm.
This episode presents a dialogue involving economist Dr. Erdal Tekin, a member of AU’s Department of Public Administration and Policy, along with neuroscientists Terry Davidson and Tony Riley, and law professor Susan Carle discussing research and policy approaches to drug abuse, obesity and other potentially harmful brain-based behaviors. Dr. Erdal explains how economists think about addiction and other types of self-destructive behavior as a problem of “time inconsistency”—in other words, individuals sometimes don’t calculate the value of their future preferences sufficiently in deciding on their current actions. Davidson, Riley and Carle then discus bringing economics and neuroscience together in preventing and treating addiction and obesity and the need for more inter-disciplinary collaboration. More information about Dr. Tekin and his work can be found here: https://www.american.edu/spa/faculty/tekin.cfm
The Neuroscience of Drug Abuse: This episode features AU Professor of Neuroscience Dr. Anthony Riley discussing his research on the neuroscience of drug abuse. Drugs cause both positive and negative effects on the brain; drug use becomes problematic when negative effects overwhelm the brain’s ability to compensate. Dr Riley discusses the policy challenges revealed by the neuroscience of addiction, including what he sees as one of the biggest problems—namely, relapse. Riley, Davidson and Carle also discuss gene expression, adolescence, the microbiome, and other factors that affect likelihood of drug use escalation and therefore are important to public policy interventions. More about Dr. Riley and his research can be found here https://www.american.edu/cas/faculty/alriley.cfm.
Good neuroscience may contribute to policy advances, but what happens when inaccurate myths about neuroscience take hold? With Professor Carle and Dr. Davidson, AU School of Education Professor Dr. Alida Anderson discusses her research on “neuro-myths” in education policy. Anderson explains what some of these neuro-myths are, how they may lead educators and policymakers astray, and how training can help decrease the prevalence and harms neuro-myths may cause. More about Dr. Anderson and her research can be found here:. https://www.american.edu/soe/faculty/aanderso.cfm
This episode features Professor of Law Dr. Lewis Grossman, an expert on food and drug law and legal history, in conversation with Dr. Davidson and Dr. Carle to explore the policy implications of neuroscience research on the Western diet and obesity. The discussion with Dr. Grossman focuses on various potential policy options for labeling, limiting, and/or “nudging” approaches to lower consumption of harmful foods. More about Dr. Grossman and his work, including a new book, Choose Your Own Medicine, can be found here: https://www.wcl.american.edu/community/faculty/profile/lgrossman/bio/
Professor Susan Carle of the Washington College of Law and AU Distinguished Professor of Neuroscience, Dr. Terry Davidson, discuss Davidson’s research of on the connections between a diet high in saturated fats and sugars, sometimes called the Western diet, and deficits in learning and memory tasks and the regulation of food intake. Dr. Davidson discusses the implication of his findings for understanding obesity and behavioral excess such as drug abuse. Might there be common brain mech…