The Grove Church: Recent Episodes

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The place to find podcasts made by The Grove Church in Scranton, PA. You’ll find our weekly show, Rough Cut Faith, as well as sermons from our most recent series.

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A look back at the specifics of the tabernacle and how that was a look forward to Christ.

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Jesus showed us that salvation was not just for our eternity but also for our present reality.

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Jesus established a new way of living, one that doesn't require earning, doesn't leave us in shame, and doesn't ask for more.

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Jesus finished the work that had been happening for thousands.

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The religious system of the Old Testament was a model home, not the place to live.

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The central message of Jesus' teaching was that he was offering a way of living in the world that brought full life and flourishing and he called all people to step into this life with him.

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Jesus is a priest like no other. Well, almost like no other...

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We hold tightly to the promises of God, knowing that His timing is different than our timing.

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The author of Hebrews makes a distinction between knowing about Jesus and living like him.

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The concept of wrath has been used to control and manipulate people. But it may not mean what you think it means.

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What does it mean for Jesus to be our "High Priest"?

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God offered rest at the beginning in Eden, to Israel, and, through Christ, to everyone.

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We need each other if we are going to faithfully follow Jesus throughout our whole lives.

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Understanding how Jesus becoming human and dying as a human saved us from destruction.

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God came near to us in Christ.

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We have to keep our eyes on the end, the goal, rather than the moments in between.

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Who is Jesus, really?

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Our opening to the new series in Hebrews. The whole story is about Jesus!

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This wrap-up message focuses on the promises given to each church and how those promises are fulfilled in the Kingdom of God.

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Examining the church of Laodecia.

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The church of Sardis thought they were alive, they did all the things that looked like they were alive. But Jesus said they were dead...

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Pastor Scott walks us through John 6 and how the realities Christ's words should affect eh way we approach the table of communion.

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Thyatira had the same problem as many churches today, they thought they could serve two different gods.

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The church of Pergamum had the same problem that ancient Israel had. It's pretty much the same problem that we all have.

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The church in Smyrna was not allowing the ideology of the empire to mix with their pursuit of God's Kingdom. They were paying for it.

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In this communion focus we take a look at how we engage with God when experiencing the ups and downs of life. We can often feel that our emotional state is secondary to our spiritual life. It's not, our emotions are a God given part of our being and should be taken seriously as a way that we process life with God.

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Ephesus has a lot going for it, they were a large, stable church who maintained unity and theological purity at a time of tremendous persecution. And Jesus was about to shut them down...

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The framework through which we look at Revelation and the seven churches at the beginning of Revelation shapes our understanding of the entire book.

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Faith is a journey not a temporary stop.

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Out of Bethlehem comes the one who will restore the brokenness of our world. Until this restoration is complete we live in the space between chaos and wholeness called lament.

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Our joy will grow when we start training our attention on what God is doing.

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We begin our Christmas teachings by considering how we can trust God's promises. As we trust God it can become easier to know that He is working even if we don't see it and that will help us become people of transforming hope.

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The last teaching in our series, We Believe, covered three specific doctrinal points and contained a lot of information. We've split this message into three shorter teachings for those who may want to revisit one of those three parts. This third part focuses on what eternity looks like for us as physically resurrected followers of Christ.

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The last teaching in our series, We Believe, covered three specific doctrinal points and contained a lot of information. We've split this message into three shorter teachings for those who may want to revisit one of those three parts. This second part focuses on what it means for us to be physically resurrected.

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The last teaching in our series, We Believe, covered three specific doctrinal points and contained a lot of information. We've split this message into three shorter teachings for those who may want to revisit one of those three parts. This first one focuses on what it means to be forgiven.

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We bring our teaching through The Apostles Creed to it's conclusion as Pastor Mike explores what the creed means when it describes Christ's followers as being forgiven, physically resurrected, and eternal.

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We continue our teaching through the Apostles Creed exploring what "the communion of saints" means and how it applies to our life together as the people of God.

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Joe Dea continues our series "We Believe" by exploring what "one holy catholic" actually means and how it applies to our lives today as part of the people of God.

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The Holy Spirit is the most misunderstood person of the Trinity. Yet, the Holy Spirit is the most present person of the Trinity in the life of a Christian because we are told by Jesus that the Spirit indwells us. In this message we look at the thread of the Spirit's presence throughout the whole of scripture.

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Confession is not something that we practice much in the Protestant Church. But it is a Biblical practice that provides relief and fullness of life that we will never understand otherwise.

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Jesus is in the unique position to both advocate and judge. But this may not mean what we always think it means.

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After Jesus resurrected he spent some time with his disciples and friends. Then, scripture tells us, he ascended into the Heavens and sits at the right hand of the Father. What does all that mean?

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This line of the Apostle's Creed is often quite confusing. Where did Jesus descend to and from where did he resurrect? This is critically important to understand if we are to know what did Christ's resurrection actually accomplish.

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Jesus, being both fully God and fully human, suffered at a specific time and in a specific place, died and was buried.

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Jesus was conceived of the Holy Spirit and born of a virgin. What in the world does that mean and why is it integral to our faith?

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Listen in as we teach through the second line of the Apostles Creed so that we can understand that it carries much more theological and practical significance for our lives than simply saying "I believe in Jesus."

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This is the first message of our series, We Believe, in which we examine the foundational truths of the Christian faith. In this first sermon, we look at the implications of believing that God is Father and Creator.

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Join us as we consider our redemption in light of the Old and New Testament uses of the word and how it can play out in our live as followers of Christians.

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In the concluding chapter of Ruth we see how Boaz makes good on his word to redeem Ruth and the land that belongs to the family of Elimelech. We also see the bigger picture of how God has been faithful to redeem Naomi and Ruth through the tragedy of their lives.

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The story of Ruth and Boaz begins to come together as Naomi directs Ruth to put it all on the table to find security for their future as we cover chapter three of Ruth.

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The story continues in Ruth chapter two as God continues to provide for Naomi and Ruth through the generosity of others and the humble hard work of Ruth.

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We begin our series in the book of Ruth covering chapter one and enter into a story of faithfulness that is full of depth and hope in the face of tragedy.

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James acts as a mirror into which we look to see what in our lives needs to change in order to be more like Jesus. We see the reflection of Jesus in the act of communion.

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James wraps up his letter with a look at the nature of prayer, how it shapes us and moves us towards becoming the embodiment of God's will on earth.

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Pastor Mike digs in to what it means for the people of God to live with courageous patience in the face of the things that easily could cause us to live in anger or judge others.

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In this difficult passage, James calls the people of God to live in humble dependance on God in the way we plan for our future and interact with our neighbors.

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Join our communion service where Brother Joe walks us through the hope that can be ours because Jesus is Alive in 1 Peter chapter 1.

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In this teaching James addresses the root of conflict within the people of God and what will put an end to the the interpersonal conflicts in the church.

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James has a lot to say about about the community of faith living wisely in chapter 3:13-18. The wisdom James speaks about is one that elevates the community of faith rather than jockeys for personal advancement.

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This week Scott and Mike discuss a few things they've been watching, "Shogun", "The Wonder", Nate Bargatze, and a Black Mirror Episode, "Eulogy." These selections of movies and shows are not endorsements, but they are things that they watched over the last few months and felt they were worth discussing.

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James reveals that the content of what we say is not neutral and he warns the community that destructive and divisive words have no place among the people of God. This teaching will help us think through the what our words reveal about our walk with God and what James offers for those that want to grow closer to God in how we speak.

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This week Scott and Mike discuss two books that they have found to be insightful, informative, or engaging over the last few weeks. Scott brings up about Dallas Willard's book, "Hearing God," while Mike takes a slightly odd turn in looking at Terry Pratchett's book, "Small Gods."

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Is the Christians faith only a matter of agreeing with key doctrines or is it something more? James makes the clear argument that belief alone isn't enough.

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Scott and Mike discuss two albums that have been meaningful to them during this season. Check out their conversation about Red Clays Strays "Made By These Moments" and Craig Finn's "Always Been."

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Understanding what Biblical repentance is can often be shaped or misshaped by how we view the character of God.

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This week Scott and Mike look back over the series, That's Not In The Bible, and reflect on why we must address these claims of Biblical ideology with a critical eye and how to discern the truth from lies that control us.

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James confronts the community for favoring those with wealth and influence over those who do not. He makes the point that favoritism has no place within the people of God.

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There is a widely accepted claim that Christians are supposed to be "in the world but not of the world." A problem arises with this idea when just about anyone gets to define what that means and hold others to their fabricated standard. So is this standard in the Bible? If so, what is it? Where do we even get this idea? Join Scott and Mike this week as they discuss if this whole idea is even Biblical in the first place.

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Consider how James chapter 1:22-27 is central to understanding what it means to live as the people of God.

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When people talk about "taking the Lord's name in vain" they usually are thinking about how we talk about God or reference God. But that's not in the Bible! Join Scott and Mike this week as they discuss what it mean according to scripture and how we might be guilty of doing it regularly without even knowing it.

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In times of trouble our first response is usually not the best one. We want to "get back to normal" or make the difficulty go away. Anger is often our response when things get tense. But, James gives us another way to live, another way to process conflict and it's begins with dealing with ourselves.

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"To thine own self be true!" Really? Is that the best way to live? What if being true to yourself is damaging to others? Is that in the Bible? Join Scott and Mike this week as they talk about what that means, how it gets used poorly and what a Biblical way of thinking might be.

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A look at James 1:18 and the reality of who we are in Christ and our call to live lives of purpose in the midst of suffering.

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The "afterlife" is a huge umbrella term that gets misrepresented and distorted constantly in general culture. So, what's actually in the Bible and what isn't? Join Scott and Mike this week as they talk about a couple things we often get wrong and what scripture actually does talk about.

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When trouble and temptation comes we often interpret it as coming from God. But that's not what James says.

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Does everything happen for a reason or is the world a dark and chaotic place? How we understand the role of God in the things happening to us and around us will shape how we engage with God. Join Scott and Mike as they discuss how the Bible informs our view and how so many of us may believe something that's not actually in the Bible.

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Easter celebrates more than an empty tomb, it's an invitation to embrace hope.

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Parenting is tough. There's no system with guaranteed results, no advice that addresses every unique child, and no process that makes it easier. But it gets even harder when people twist scripture into some kind of God-ordained parenting technique. This week Scott and Mike look at one parenting cliche that's often attributed to scripture but is really not in the Bible at all and has probably done more to harm kids and adults than any other misconception.

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There's nothing wrong with wealth, unless it's all you trust in.

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Is wealth a problem? Does the Bible really say money is evil? Join Scott and Mike again this week as they discuss what the Bible actually says about money and wealth and why it's important for us to get it right.

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Last week James referred to the "double-minded" as people who grab on to anything when they're desperate and afraid. Today, we take a slight detour in our communion focus to discover the only one secure enough to hold on to for life.

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Are we all children of God? Or is it just a select few? What does that even mean and is it in the Bible? Join Scott and Mike this week as they talk about this often stated but rarely understood concept of being a child of God.

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Faith is not just a function of belief but the operating system for our lives.

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What's the deal with angels? Sure, they're in the Bible, but not nearly as much as one might think. Join Scott and Mike this week as they discuss how the cultural understanding of angels differs dramatically from a Biblical understanding.

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We begin our series in James by looking at how our perspective in times of trouble can shift the focus from desperation to hope.

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When we try to encourage one another we often don't do it in the most theologically accurate way. It's not intentional, most of the time we don't know what to say and we just want to help. But, that becomes a huge problem when our attempt to comfort leads to a misunderstanding of the nature of God and how He works in and through our circumstances. Join Scott and Mike this week as they discuss how seemingly harmless cliche can lead to wildly harmful understanding.

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We've talked about the many ways that God speaks to us. Now, we wrap up the series looking at two barriers to hearing God that we all have and how to break them down.

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Discernment is the process of knowing what it is true. With so many competing voices calling for our attention it is critical for us to know how to discern the truth.

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This week Scott and Mike tackle one of the more controversial topics in this series, sin and sinners! Yeah, what does the Bible actually say about sin, what's are we to do with sinners, is there even such a thing or is it something we made up to make ourselves feel better? Lots to think about...

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We journey on with Scott and Mike as they look at things people think are in the Bible but really are just made up from somewhere else. The particular trouble with this week's topic is that most people actually think it's in the Bible and they base their lives around it!

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The sacrifice of Christ ushers in a new reality for those who choose to follow him.

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Jesus said that his sheep hear his voice and know him. We will never hear his voice if we don't know him or if we aren't ever still enough to listen.

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Does your external appearance really display an inward reality? Or, to ask it another way, is cleanliness next to Godliness? Join Scott and Mike this week as they take a look at this sentiment that's often attributed to scriptural principles but really leads people further from the truth.

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There's a prevailing thought that says, "God doesn't give me more than I can handle." Join Scott and Mike this week as they discuss whether God gives us trouble and whether or not we can handle anything at all.

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The words of scripture are God written and preserved as the way that God chose to communicate with His church. If we are to take hearing God seriously we have to take the Bible seriously.

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We limit the voice of God through our expectations of what it means to hear Him. But, our lives lived in a community of faith allow us to hear and speak His words of life through each other.

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If the "prosperity gospel" is heretical and unbiblical, then does that mean we're supposed to be poor? Is it true that wealthy people won't go to Heaven or that money is the root of all evil? Join Scott and Mike as they discuss whether or not God really wants us to be poor.

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Does God want us to be healthy and wealthy? Is He just waiting for us to get it right so He can bless us? So, does suffering mean we got it wrong? Join Scott and Mike as they take on the false view often called the "Prosperity Gospel" and ask, "Is that actually in the Bible?"

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On this communion focused Sunday we remember that because of Christ's sacrifice for us we are accepted into a familial relationship with the God who hears us.

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Rough Cut Faith returns! Join Scott and Mike as they open up season 3 with a dialogue about celebrity culture and how we have seen the commoditizing of church experiences pull us away from everything Jesus talked about. It's a conversation full of hot takes, verbal gaffes, and unfiltered thoughts on faith and culture!

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There two ways to travel through life, a path of life or a path of destruction. But the purpose and ability to remain on the path of life might surprise you.

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Who, or what, is the Holy Spirit? It's in the Bible but it seems like the concepts surrounding the Holy Spirit are all over the place. This is the first of two sermons looking at the reality, role, and function of the Holy Spirit and what it means for our lives.

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Even though it's not uncommon to pray and ask God for direction or clarity, it still sounds suspicious when people say they "hear God" speak. But, does God really speak or is that never a legit way to think about engaging with God?

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As we walk through life we can take two approaches, either expecting it all to cater to us or pursuing the change into the image of Christ.

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The story of Christmas doesn't end in December. It goes on for eternity.

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After a tumultuous year like we've all had it is good to reflect on where we've been and who we are in light of it all. Join Scott and Mike as they take the last episode of the year to talk through some of their personal observations and the importance of seeing where we've been in order to move forward to where we're going.

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As the story unfolds from the beginning, we find ourselves wondering what our place might be in that story. It might surprise you to know that you have a part to play!

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Christmas is not a singular event, it takes place as part of a larger story. One that started in a garden and continues even today.

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As we begin the Advent season we look at the beauty of resting in the hope that Christ brought.

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Shalom is the Hebrew word for peace. But it's not simply a "lack of conflict," it's an all-encompassing, lifelong pursuit that seeks to put everything back the way is supposed to be. So, how is it supposed to be? Join Scott and Mike this week as they discuss the concept of "shalom," how it saturates all of scripture and how Jesus brought it in its fullness.

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Simplicity has become kind of a buzzword in the last decade. It can be seen in minimalist design, tiny houses, and mindfulness. These may be ways it plays out but simplicity goes deeper, it's an attitude, a motivation, a way of ordering our inner world so that our outer world can find peace. Join Scott and Mike today as they discuss what a lifestyle of simplicity looks like and how we can pursue it in our own lives.

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Proverbs is more than just platitudes and ways to improve your life. It's a new way of living, a new way of seeing the world.

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Being grateful will change our lives. But, what does that actually mean? Is it as simple as saying, "Thank you," or is there a deeper, more critical shift in our hearts and minds that takes place when we are grateful even in suffering? Join Scott and Mike this week as they look into the depths of what it means to be thankful and how it directs the gaze of our life outwards.

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Embracing forgiveness as a community is critical to our well being and it is one way that we can actively guard our hearts.

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There are many misperceptions about the church and Christianity that even shape the minds of followers of Jesus. Does everyone think the same, vote the same, act the same? Does the church collectively judge the culture? Is the church supposed to separate from people who don't think like them? Join Scott and Mike this week as they share their experience and thoughts on misperceptions both inside and outside of the church.

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The framework of our lives is our hearts. All that we are and all that we will be is contained in our hearts. We have to keep it safe because our lives depend on it.

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The "will of God" is often spoken of as some ethereal thing that must be sought after but we really won't know if we've found even if we do. It's a concept that can be frustrating, damaging, or disappointing when not understood. Join Scott and Mike this week as they debunk some myths surrounding it and offer a more refreshing, joyful view.

So you know, this episode is only 40 mins long, but there are an extra 20 mins of silence at the end. This was not intentional but it's there.

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Anxiety and worry are epidemic in our society. From the every-day concerns to global tensions to physically debilitating anxiety, we are all affected by it to some extent. And it wasn't like life was easier in the ancient times of scripture. But, we are offered a pathway through the chaos into a place of peace.

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Can we still live like Jesus regardless of who is president? It won't be long before this contentious election cycle transitions into a contentious challenge to the validity of the electoral process. Speculations, accusations, and generalizations will be lobbed like across party lines like verbal grenades. But it doesn't have to tear the church apart. It doesn't have to tear our culture apart. Join Scott and Mike this week as they discuss whether or not it's possible to still follow Jesus if our "side" doesn't win. (Spoiler alert: It is.)

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Having people in our lives who know us deeply and who we can know deeply is the healthiest way to walk through life. The wisdom of Proverbs speaks into our lives and encourages us to develop companions for the journey ahead and to be a friend who loves others well.

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There are thousands of churches in America alone, all with a unique culture and style. This is not a bad thing! But that also means that there are a lot of ways for things to go wrong as well. In this episode of Rough Cut Faith Scott and Mike discuss some warning signs that have historically led to damage and hurt when not recognized sooner.

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Wisdom is understanding and living in accordance with God's ordering of reality. Justice is pursuing God's divine order for the sake of others. They are two sides of the same coin.

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In a follow-up to last week's conversation on authority, Scott and Mike examine the lyrics to Baby Bugs' song, "My Pastor". This song is a heart-breaking look at how authoritarian spiritual leaders damage people and, ultimately, drive them away from God.

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Sin is something that is pretty commonly talked about in the wider culture but is rarely understood. Proverbs speaks to us about this difficult concept and how it affects us and the communities around us.

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Authority in churches has come under much scrutiny in the last few years. From pastors refusing to adhere to pandemic restrictions to spiritual leaders wielding power over thousands of people, we see a wide spectrum of leaders declaring their authority. But, what does the Bible say about it? Is pastoral authority even a real thing or is it something we've just accepted because challenging it risks losing a community altogether? Join Mike and Scott this week as they discuss what authority is from a Biblical perspective, whether spiritual leaders are called to pursue it, and if it's even a positive concept at all.

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The cross of Christ stands as a light in the darkness.

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Ever feel like you're struggling with the same unhealthy patterns and struggles years after you thought you would be over them? It's like change isn't happening fast enough even though you have faith? It can be incredibly frustrating and guilt inducing. But it doesn't have to be. This week Scott and Mike talk about why life change takes so long and how we can rest in the process without getting impatient with ourselves.

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Generosity is not an act, it is a way of living that seeks to bring God's goodness into the world.

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We take a break from Proverbs to celebrate a year of being in our new worship space by remembering our values as a community and why we are baptizing six people in the church today.

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There is chaos, evil, and tragic events unfolding all over the world right now. Some of them we know about, many of them we don't. But, even the ones we know about are overwhelming. How do we as individuals process these large scale tragedies when the reality is that we are powerless to do anything about them? Join Scott and Mike this week as they think out loud about what we can do and how to know where the boundaries are.

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Loneliness has become such universal experience that the surgeon general of the United States has actually issued a warning about it. Yet we are constantly around people, connected online, at work, and in our communities. So what's going one? Why do so many of us collectively feel so alone? Join Scott and Mike this week as they discuss why loneliness is a much bigger issue than we may realize and what we can do about it.

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It's from the depths of our hearts that our words are formed. And they can either kill or heal.

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We often mistake discipline for punishment. But discipline and self-control have more to do with how we live for others than with denying ourselves necessities.

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New studies have come out that reveal the damage that social media has wrought upon our collective psyche. Most of us don't need to look at a study to know that spending hours every day staring into our screens is not the best way to engage with the world. But, at the same time, it seems almost necessary to engage in some way. What are we to do!? Join Scott and Mike this week as they discuss the good, the bad, and the frustrating aspects of social media and how we live healthy lives with an online world.

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Are you woke? Am I? Should we be? It's a word that carries a boatload of baggage along with it and most people don't know what it means but they sure no it makes some people angry. Join Scott and Mike this week as they unpack what it means to "be woke" and whether or not it's a good thing.

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Humility is celebrated as a virtue but rarely pursued as a lifestyle. Perhaps that's because we've forgotten that our model of humility didn't only die that way, he also lived that way.

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Understanding what humility is and how it works in our lives yields greater benefits for all people.

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When we only interact with things we agree with we can start assuming that we've got it all figured out and everyone who doesn't agree is wrong. What if they're not? What if we need to see matters from a different perspective to find what is true? This week Scott and Mike discuss the importance of engaging with material and voices that move us outside our own echo chambers.

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Deconstruction is a concept that has been referenced quite a bit in the past several years. But it's not new, it's not a trend, and it's nothing to be afraid of. Join Scott and Mike as they discuss why deconstruction can be a necessary part of our spiritual journey and how to learn together in the process.

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We weren't made to walk through life alone. It's too much. The Proverbs points this out as well, reminding us that there is great value in seeking the wise council of others in our lives.

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In this follow-up to last week's discussion on Christian Nationalism, Scott and Mike discuss why apprenticing with Jesus may a better option than legislating a Christian ethic. This is a bit of a longer episode than usual but we felt that this subject is extremely important for the church today and it warranted a few extra minutes.

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Proverbs contrasts the difference between living a life that flourishes and a life of destruction. The clearest difference between the two is their starting point.

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Christian Nationalism has been in the news for quite a while now. But do you know what it is and if there's anything "Christian" about it? Scott and Mike talk about how it impacts us and what a Christ centered response might be to this seemingly growing phenomenon.

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When we come to communion we all approach as equals. We all need the same grace, we all need the same mercy, none of us are better than any other.

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Every week it seems like some large group is offended by something. Are people of faith even supposed to be offended? If we are, what are we supposed to do about it? Join Mike and Joe this week as they talk about how to handle offense in a way that bring peace rather than a sword.

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In this wrap up our series in Isaiah we look at the thread that began in chapter one and runs all the way through Isaiah into our lives today.

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Join Scott and Mike as they discuss the value, maybe even the necessity, of reading fiction. We often dismiss fictional stories as diversions from reality or not something to be taken seriously. But there are profound truths to be gleaned from good works of fiction.

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As we come to the end of Isaiah's prophecies we see that God calls His people to look forward to restoration and take hope in His deliverance.

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God repeatedly calls His people to living the good life with Him rather than relying on other who would strip away their freedom.

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We live in a world that is becoming increasingly violent. Or is it that we're just hearing more about it? Either way, violence has become so normative that it seems to be an accepted way of dealing with disagreements rather than tolerance, conversation, and an exchange of ideas. Join Scott and Mike this week as they discuss how our faith pushes back against a culture of violence.

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Recent studies have confirmed what people have known centuries, nature is good for you! Not just because it feels peaceful but because being in nature actually produces physiological changes in our brains. Scott and Mike talk about the implications of this for our spiritual lives and how retreats in nature has always been a deeply critical need for us and was even something Jesus did regularly.

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When Isaiah looks ahead to the Savior, he is looking towards a new plan, he's looking towards a restored people, a restored kingdom, and restored lives. The coming Messiah would not restore a nation, he would restore all things back to the original intent.

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Is Christianity a religion or is it more than that? Scott and Mike take a look at what religion is, what makes people religious, and whether or not Christians are supposed to be religious.

We reference this article by Ryan Burge at the beginning of the conversation: https://www.graphsaboutreligion.com/p/what-does-it-mean-to-be-religious

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Isaiah looks ahead to a time when one would come who did all that Israel was supposed to do. He provides a path towards inhabiting the world as it was always meant to be.

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Isaiah 40-48

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We live in a polarized culture, a time when there of clear divisions and angry rhetoric on both sides of the political spectrum. But there is a way for followers of Christ to rise above the rhetoric and represent his kingdom well. This week Mike and Scott discuss the book, The Spirit of Our Politics, and how it offers a path away from the chaos and towards peace.

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Narcissism is a huge issue in churches all over the world and is at the root of spiritual abuse and manipulation. This week Scott and Mike discuss the book When Narcissism Comes to Church and how this book helps in identifying the culture that nurtures narcissism and some movement towards healing.

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The life of Hezekiah offers a smaller reprieve in the midst of all the darkness in Isaiah. We can learn from the relatable humanity of this great king and how he stood out as so different from the rest.

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The destruction was coming but there was hope for a future.

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Not everyone agrees with us! Sounds crazy but it's true. In order to function in a society with multiple opinions, ideas, and cultures, how do we maintain unity without requiring uniformity? This is the question that Scott and Mike are discussing this week on Rough Cut Faith.

*audio is a bit weird but we fixed it after six minutes.

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We live in a culture with a multiplicity of social ideals, beliefs, worldviews, and faith traditions. How do we engage people in a way that removes barriers and allows for relational connections? Join Mike and Scott in discussing this challenging topic.

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When two kingdoms split, they not only split from each other, they walked away from God. But God says that there would come a day when an eternal kingdom would be built and nothing could shake it.

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Even with the destruction of nations there was always a vision for the hope to come.

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There has long been a dichotomy between psychology and spirituality. That divide has lessened over the past couple of decades but there are still a lot of questions among faith communities about how we address mental and emotional health from a spiritual perspective. In this conversation, Mike and Scott discuss their own experiences, how the church has gotten it wrong, and how we move forward in addressing our "whole selves."

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This week Scott and Mike discuss the new album by The Avett Brothers, the role music and art in our spiritual life and why it's good for us to engage with works of art outside of the bounds of a faith tradition.

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Isaiah 11-24 gives an account of downfall 13 of different nations, including the kingdoms of Israel and Judah. And it seems like we still haven't learned the lesson they were trying to teach.

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In this new season of Rough Cut Faith, Mike and Scott talk about the importance of engaging with culture through the lens of faith and what that might look like. Then they discuss some of the themes we see in Isaiah and how destruction seems to be the consequence of power.

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In the face of fear and danger will we trust God or turn to the strength of others?

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We step away from Isaiah in this message to discuss how Jesus encouraged his disciples when explaining that he would be leaving them. He promised a comforter would come and continue to lead and guide them.

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God revealed Himself to Isaiah as a way of showing the nation who it is they keep betraying.

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Isaiah 1-5 are the prelude and overview of all the issues Israel has had as well as the hope for the future.

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The prophet Isaiah wrote at one of Israel's most tumultuous and tragic eras as a nation. We can learn a lot from what God had to say to them.

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Jesus and Barabbas stood next to each other one day. Their differences couldn't have been more stark and everyone still has a choice in who to follow.

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We live in the life of resurrection every day, not just Easter.

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The night began with a passover meal and ended with Jesus on trial. This is the encounter of those trials and the final responses to Christ's claims to be the Messiah.

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The disciples would leave in the chaos being night-fished and Jesus would be left vulnerable to drink the cup of suffering. What in the world does that all mean!?

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Jesus is looking ahead, telling his followers what will come in the next couple of days. And there are two very different responses.

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We don't drift into being spiritually formed by God. It takes intentionality and a desire to be like Jesus.

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When we learn to live in simplicity and contentment the result will be a life of generosity.

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The gift of sabbath rest is a call to be refreshed even in the midst of busyness. But, more than that, it's a letting go and realizing God is really the one who is in control.

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Fasting isn't a practice that often gets talked about. But it's something that Jesus and the early church practiced. Knowing the heart behind the practice teaches us what it looks like to pursue God's Kingdom of God with our whole person.

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Jesus gave us a simple, easily accessible framework for us as he explained the process of prayer. But we have a tendency to make it complicated.

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Scripture is one of the primary functions in our lives as we are formed into the a community that looks like Jesus. But so many of us have never seen it as it was meant to be.

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We are often overwhelmed by the needs around us and then we feel guilty for not serving more. But that's the wrong mentality to have. Instead we should be looking towards what brings joy to us and share that joy through acts of love towards others.

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It is our hearts that must be shaped if we are to be transformed into someone who looks like Jesus. This is the goal of the Christian life, to be formed into the likeness of Jesus. It is in community that we are formed and it is for the community that we are being transformed.

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It was because of Jesus' coming that we were reconciled us to God and were brought back to the place of belonging we were made for.

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The hardest context in which to be at peace is with ourselves. Until we are restored to our intended purpose then we will always be restlessly searching for our identity, our meaning, and our purpose.

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We are made to live in community, to be known and loved. It's a tough sell when our individualism takes over.

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Join Scott, Mike and Joe as they discuss the internal component to an emotionally healthy sense of belonging. Often times we face experiences in our lives that make feeling like we can connect with other seem like an impossibility. This week we're breaking down the internal struggles that we can face as we navigate relationships and seek for somewhere to belong.

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Join Mike, Scott and Joe for another edition of Rough Cut Faith. This week we're discussing the foundations of belonging during the holiday season. What does it mean to have a desire for belonging? What does it mean to cultivate a healthy and safe community? We discuss all of that and more.

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We were separated from God when humanity chose to subvert God's will for their own. But we aren't meant to be in this state of separation, we are meant to be with God.

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This week the guys are breaking down what it looks like to transition from one moment in a church's teaching to another as The Grove hits the pause button on our walk through the book of Matthew and transitions into the holiday and post-holiday series of conversations that are set to take place. Just a reminder if you have questions about anything that's covered during RCF, feel free to drop a comment and we will be in touch. We value the dialogue. We also have a Q&R time at the end of every service for questions about concepts covered during the weekly sermon time.

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Last thoughts before we take a break

Matthew chs. 1-25

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Without knowing when Jesus returns, how then should we live?

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This week in a more unformed edition of Rough Cut Faith, take a look at what it looks like to develop a road map and what it looks like to break down what is most helpful for a congregation when developing a sermon series.

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What in the "end of the world" was Jesus talking about?

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Christ said that the truth will set us free. So, are we living in freedom?

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This week Scott, Mike and Joe are breaking down the significance of communion ahead of a Communion Focus service.

They're discussing the freedom we have in Christ, why Communion is important, some of the ways we can miss the point of it and a lot more.

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Looking at how we responsibly address prophetic writings.

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After the overview of Matthew 24, we go back to take a deeper look at the first 25 verses. Along the way we talk about how we engage with people who disagree and what the appropriate response is when someone really believes they are right and you are wrong.

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This is an overview of chapters Matthew 24-25 in which Jesus gives his disciples a glimpse into the things to come and his return as king. But it may not look like what you think it should!

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Join Scott, Joe and Mike for a new series here on the channel called Rough Cut Faith where they will be walking through a variety of topics in an approachable, round table format as well as pulling back to curtain on what the sermon prep process looks like when preparing for Sunday morning.

For the first episode, we're digging into the prep that's going into an overview of Matthew 24 and along the way covering good habits for studying scripture as a whole but especially scripture that has multiple interpretations.

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Jesus shares warns the crowd of what is coming for the religious leaders and those who emulate them.

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Jesus asks a question which reveals how far off the religious leaders were from reality. He exposes their hypocrisy and shows himself to be the example of righteous living.

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A look at Jesus in light of communion.

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Our location has changed but the Mission remains the same.

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A look back at what God has done in our building over the last 12 years and excited anticipation of what He will do in our new space.

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The religious leaders thought they could trap Jesus by asking him a series of leading questions. His answers are so countercultural, so radically out of their minds, that it almost seems like he's advocating for an entirely new way of living.

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God's plan was for rest, knowing that we wouldn't take it naturally. We can find the Lord's rest in the act of communion.

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Jesus invites everyone to a party but not everyone wants to go.

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Jesus' authority is questioned by the religious leaders.  It doesn't go well for them.

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Do we need "more faith" or do we need to see that dead religions turn us into dead trees?

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Mary and Elizabeth were the first to declare the faithfulness of God in the coming of the Savior.

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The story of Jesus entering Jerusalem on a donkey and clearing out the temple may be the greatest example of how completely different Jesus was from the rest of his culture.  And Israel completely missed the point.

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Jesus demonstrating that our cries for mercy are not lost.

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The greatest in the Kingdom of God are the ones who serve without pretense, ambition, or power.  Simple, authentic service to others as an expression of love for God is greater than anything else.

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Your rank and status in this world has no bearing on your position in the Kingdom of God.

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We can live without shame and in the freedom that Christ brings.

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When a rich man tries to earn Heaven, Jesus makes an impossible demand.

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Jesus pointed to children as the example of humility his followers should pursue.  If we were to live this way it would change that nature of all of our relationships.

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As the Pharisees try to trap Jesus he shows them once again that he is above their petty squabbles.

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We can be confident that our forgiveness is for our joy, not a threat that it could one day be taken away.

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Compassion, mercy, forgiveness, these describe and define the heart of God.  He expects his followers to treat each other the same way.

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When we live in community it's inevitable that there will be conflict.  It was no different with Jesus' disciples.  When one hurts another Jesus lays out a way of reconciliation.

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When the disciples are concerned about power and position Jesus tells them to be more like a child.

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Of all the symbols God could have chosen to show us His heart, He told us to remember see Him in the broken body of Christ.

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Jesus demonstrates both his power and humility in one simple act of paying a tax.

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Our faith is not in our own ideas about religion or what we can do, but in the strength and power of God.

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We have a tendency to try and hold on to moments rather than realize that all the moments of our lives are there to draw us to Jesus.

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The story of the prodigal son was one of the most controversial stories Jesus told because it demonstrated the extravagant love of God that no one was expecting.

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When our expectations of faith and life are different than God's we are prone to grown frustrated, angry, and discouraged.  And then we try to take control.

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It may be the most important question you'll ever answer:

Who do you say Jesus is?

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If your mind is already made up no amount of miracles are going to change it.

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Jesus celebrated the final Passover meal with his disciples on the night he was arrested.  It was a meal that finds its origins more than 1500 years in the past, when the blood of a lamb saved people from death.

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Last week it was one Gentile woman, this week, it's over 4,000 Gentile people spending three days getting healed and being fed in miraculous ways.  It seems Jesus was looking at race when it came to grace.

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Even though she was not a Jewish woman, she still showed faith in Christ greater than many in the Jewish community.

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The religious leaders try again to trap Jesus.  He turns their question back onto them showing that they were consumed with outer appearance while God was most concerned with about their hearts.

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The sacrificial system was a shadow of the sacrifice of Christ to come.  He settled it all once and for eternity. 

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Our fear takes our eyes off Jesus.

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Jesus called upon his followers to do the impossible.  When they had no idea how, he showed them.

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The story of Herod Antipas and John the Baptist is one of the best examples in scripture of how refusing to live what you claim to believe ends up being bad for everyone.

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Change is something we all experience and it's not always the change we hope for.  But we can honor God throughout life's inevitable transitions.

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When we love something because of what we get from it, it's not love.  Love is always given away.

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Joy must find its basis in something more than temporary pleasures and fleeting circumstances.

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Peace is hard to come by these days.  Yet it was a gift that Jesus gave his followers.  In our message today we see how the gift of peace was uniquely given with the coming of the Savior King.

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The coming of Jesus was the final piece in a puzzle that lasted thousands of years.

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Churches don't usually get it all right and a lot of damage has been done because of it.  We can look to scripture and see that there is a way to engage with one another that leads to unity even without agreement.

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Jesus shows us what generosity looks like.   It's not about money, it's about a lifestyle of humility and the giving of oneself for others.

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Singing has been an important part of worship since Israel left Egypt.  But why is it important and what does it look like in a healthy church?

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Referring to communion The Eucharist is something that believers have done for centuries.  Today we explore what it means.

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Scripture is the foundation upon which every practice and action of a healthy church is based.  It's trustworthy, rational, and presents truth that is consistent with reality.

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Discernment doesn't mean just making good decisions, it means listening and following the will of God in those decisions.  And the church should be doing this all together.

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There are so many opinions about leadership, what it means, who is best, what it should look like.  But, when it comes to church leadership there is really only one example we're supposed to follow.

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Being a disciple is like being an apprentice.  We're called to help each other emulate Jesus in every area of our lives.  

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Communion is more than a sacred act, it is a way of expressing the Christian life in community.

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There are nearly 100 different denominations and hundreds of churches in each one.  And they all call themselves "church."  Could they all be the same thing?

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Jesus has invited us into the Kingdom of God, making a way to be with him and to be part of His eternally unfolding story.  But we can't bring anything with us, it's all got to go.

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We can ruin the good by trying to get rid of the bad.

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We take a step away from Matthew today to focus on the ancient practice of Communion and why it is so important for us to do this on a regular basis.

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Not understanding spiritual things doesn't mean we're hopeless.  Asking Jesus to explain IS the point!

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The people just kept wanting more and more signs that Jesus was the Messiah.  But Jesus wasn't doing miracles to put on a show or make anyone believe.

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Am I for or against Jesus?  How do I guard the condition of my heart?

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We all follow something, even if we think we don't.  So is your way of living refreshing for your soul or is it burdening you and everyone around you?

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The people always had an excuse for rejecting Jesus and his teachings of the Kingdom of God.  Their excuses wouldn't matter in the end. 

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We're often hit with struggles in life that we didn't plan for our count on.  Where we go and what we do with those questions and doubts is critical for how we work out our faith in real life.

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It's not easy to follow Jesus.  People hated him enough to kill him and so his followers shouldn't be surprised when those who live like him aren't liked very much.  But that's not the end of the story.

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Jesus modeled the life he called his disciples to live.  They were two follow him in all things and emulate him. 

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The relationship with Jesus that we see in Matthew is completely different than what everyone was expecting.

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Jesus called a hated man to be his disciple, then had dinner with a bunch of sinners.  This was not normal...

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Miracles weren't just neat tricks that Jesus did to prove a point.  Every miracle tells us something more about Jesus.

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Jesus spent three chapters speaking about the Kingdom.  Then he goes on to demonstrate the power of the Kingdom by miraculously demonstrating it with outsiders.

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In chapters 5-7 of Matthew we see Jesus give a succinct, consistent ethic of the Kingdom of God.  If we are to follow it, it would change our lives.

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Chapter four of Matthew summarizes Jesus' early ministry.  His calling of disciples and interaction with those in need reveal a savior filled with compassion and a love for outsiders.

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The temptations of Jesus were the same temptations that Israel had.  They're the same ones that we have.  They haven't changed.  The only difference is that Jesus didn't give in.

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Jesus walked 65 miles to be baptized by John before beginning his earthly ministry.  Why would he do that and what are the implications for us?

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The lessons we can learn from John the Baptist all come down to his primary message, "Repent, because the Kingdom of God is coming!"

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We begin our look into the Gospel of Matthew by recognizing how clearly Matthew was building his argument that Jesus was who he claimed to be.

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This is not a sermon, it's a contemplative service consisting primarily of scripture and songs which lead us through the life and death of Christ.

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Easter is a celebration of hope.

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The church in Ephesus was one of seven churches mentioned in Revelation.  There were a lot of good things happening that God affirmed, but there was one problem that overshadowed them all.

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We live in an age of skepticism, and age when all that came before gets called into question.  But we shouldn't fear this, skepticism and doubt will not tear down or destroy genuine faith, it will strengthen it.

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We all live with an innate sense of moral and ethical boundaries.  Sometimes this directs our lives, sometimes we ignore it and are left dealing with guilt and shame.  We can live a life free of guilt and connected to Christ.

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Paul tells us that our faith should lead us to love and that love issues from a pure heart, clear conscience, and genuine faith.  In this sermon, pastor Mike explores what a pure heart means and how we might can develop a pure heart in our own lives.

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In Paul's final chapter to Timothy he encourages church leaders and those in the church to live with a clear recognition of Jesus and to allow Jesus to shape and order their lives.

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What does it mean to be living in the "last days" and do we live any differently than any other day?  Paul speaks to his protege, Timothy, about how what is most important when living with the end in mind.

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Maintaining our focus on the goal of the gospel takes great effort and great love.

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Life is filled with struggle and sometimes that struggle wears our faith down.  That's where we find Timothy and Paul gives much needed encouragement to renew Timothy's faith at this difficult time.

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As Paul wraps up his letter to Timothy, there are a few things he wants to add right at the end.  

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The church of Ephesus deals with caring for those in need and reprimands those playing the system.  

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When we care for our bodies, we do a good thing.  We make decisions that are best for our physical well being and we try to stay consistent.  We should be doing the same thing for our spiritual well being.

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The purpose of Paul's writing is to help Timothy develop a place in which God is glorified.  This, in large part, comes down to the character of the leaders.

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There were several issues in the Ephesian church that were distracting people from worship.  A poor attitude towards others, arguments and debates about meaningless things, emphasis on outward appearance, and power struggles, all things that pulled attention away from God.

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The representation of God here in the world today is His church.  1 Timothy is a letter from the apostle Paul to his protege, Timothy.  In it, he discusses how best to lead the church towards being a place God lives, and a people that represent Him well.

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How will you pursue a life that honors God this year?

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When Jesus was facing his imminent arrest he told the disciples that he was leaving them a gift, peace of heart and mind.  But the gift itself may surprise you.

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Jesus knew what was coming, he knew that trouble and trial was right around the corner for the disciples.  He also knew how they could find peace in the midst of it.

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It's hard to be anxious when you can't stop thinking about how good God had been to you.

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Taking off the old and putting on the new isn't as easy as changing clothes, but it's the same idea.

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Israel had seen God's power from afar but they didn't yet know His heart.  In Numbers 6:22-27, God revealed who is to Israel through a blessing.  And He reveals it to us in these words that He came to embody in Jesus.

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We don't experience peace regularly in the world around us.  Our circumstances are always changing and shifting.  We can't depend on our circumstances to provide peace, it must come from something bigger.

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Our stories of what God has done in our lives does not have to be complicated or complex.  Just look at all that God has done, where He has brought you, how He has changed you, the hope He has given you.  It's not hard to talk about that!

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We were meant to live in community.  This means that we know each other well enough to love and support each other well.

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We experience the love of God on a daily basis.  When we're paying attention and are aware of God's mercy and love that He shows to us each day, it will pull our hearts into the rhythm of serving others as a way to show God's love to those around us.

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Generosity is more than just giving money away.  Generous living means living with open hands, willing to give whatever is necessary for the Kingdom of God.  It's a lifestyle of letting go.

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We don't just get to do whatever we want in life.  There are always boundaries for our own protection and the well being of others.  When it comes to our spiritual life, there are also boundaries and we need to recognize them and live accordingly.

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We can't deal the baggage in our lives if we aren't even honest with ourselves about it.  Honesty with who we are and what we deal with on a regular basis is a transformative experience.

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Prayer is not complicated or confusing, we just tend to make it that way.  Prayer is simply a conversation with God that can happen anywhere at any time.  When prayer becomes a rhythm of our faith in life then the conversation never stops.

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The rhythm of what God is doing in our lives is beyond our comprehension.  That means it takes a spiritual awareness to realize and engage with what is going on.  Daily devotion means paying attention to and engaging with spiritual truth on a daily basis.  It may look different than you think.

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Jesus came to bring freedom but many of us ignore the slavery we're actually in.  This new series explores the rhythms of faith that lead us to deeper relationship with God and freedom for our souls.

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Jesus compares two houses, one that withstands the storms of life and one that is swept away.  The difference was all in the foundation.

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There are many voices that claim to speak spiritual truths.  We need to be able to discern the ones who manipulate and twist the truth from those whose words lead to life in Christ.

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Those who have a spiritual voice in your life will have a significant impact on the destination of your life.

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Jesus said that there are two gates, one is narrow and leads to life, the other is wide and leads to death.  So, what makes the best way so narrow?

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When we realize the way of life that Jesus is calling us to live it will alter everything.

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What if the greatest gift we could receive through prayer is the character of Christ?

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Our responsibility as Christ followers is to draw people into the Kingdom of God.  We will never do that if we spend more time judging them than loving them.

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Worry takes our eyes away from God and causes to pursue our own well-being rather than God's Kingdom.

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If our treasure and pursuits are based in this world then we will miss the Kingdom.  Jesus instructs his followers to keep their eyes on what is coming not on what is around them.

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Fasting is something that many people seem to be interested in, but without a thought to its spiritual impact.  Yet, Jesus expects his followers to practice fasting regularly.  Today, we get to look at a framework for what fasting means and what it looks like in our lives.

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Jesus gave us a framework by which to pray.  It's not an incantation or something specific that we have to pray to "get" anything.  This is a framework by which to understand that nature of prayer itself.

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In part one of a two part message on prayer, we consider Jesus' instructions on prayer, what it isn't, and why we need it even if God already knows everything anyway.

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Acts of charity are a private matter between the giver and God and should be used only to glorify Him, not to honor the giver.  There are eternal implications if we get this wrong.

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It is the nature and character of God to be good and so His goodness is shown to all people at all times, regardless of how "good" they are.  We represent Him and are to display His character at all times as well, regardless of how we are treated.

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Our dignity, our possessions, our time, these are not under our control as much as we think they are.  So life in Kingdom when these things are challenged has more to do with how we engage with one another than it does with how we maintain them.

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We represent the Kingdom of God in how we engage with other people.  Jesus takes on a deceitful and manipulative practice that was all too common at that time, and still finds its roots in our lives today.  As followers of Christ we're meant to live differently.

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Most people will accept that adultery is wrong.  But we, as a society, seem to think that lust is no big deal.  God's standards are different than the rest of the world.  He looks at lust as something deeper and more insidious.  In today's sermon we find out why.

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Anger in and of itself is not a sin, but there is a line that shouldn't be crossed.  

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Jesus says that the law of Moses still matters, and he says that you have to be more righteous than a Pharisee to get into the Kingdom of Heaven!  This seems to contradict everything he's said up until this point.  What is going on?

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The message of Christ was that the Kingdom of God is at hand!  He says this 50 times just in Matthew, and his sermon on the mount was an overview of what this means.  This is meant to be a great hope to us and the world around us.

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This is not a list of ways to live but a list of those who have been rejected by the powerful, the castoffs, the rejects.  These are the people Jesus calls into the Kingdom of God.

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The third day is significant all through scripture.  New life begins on the third day.

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Worship is not giving God the leftovers, it is a lifestyle that God takes very seriously.

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Zechariah is the last prophet recorded before Christ and his book is filled with prophetic visions, instruction, and foretellings that span Israel's history and our own.  

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When Judah returned from 70 years of exile they still ended up having the same problems they always had, putting themselves before God.  Hagaii reminds them that they must change if they want to break the cycle.

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If God is good, why is there evil in the world?

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When the leaders are doing following God but the people are not, God still notices.  There can't be justice without judgement.

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God doesn't take sides; He is a side.

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Micah speaks to our natural tendency to try to "do better" once we're caught doing wrong.  It's not about doing more, it's about returning to a faithful, obedient way of living.

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Hosea invites us to examine the lives that we lead and the call of God to faithfulness.

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Amos warns us that God does not desire just actions and mindless activity.  He looks to His people for justice and righteousness. 

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The enmity between the descendants of Jacob and Esau went on for generations, causing division and death along the way.  God had had enough.

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A swarm of bugs and the apocalypse, Joel has it all.  A look at this unique prophet reveals a connection between the past, present, and future.

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Jonah didn't want to go.  He tried to run away, ignore God, escape his calling.  But, the story isn't really about that.  It's about God. 

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In this new year, after a tumultuous 2020, we should be learning how to thrive!

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When Jesus spoke to a curious man about his mission he laid out the whole plan of God in two verses.  It was all based on love.

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Love never gives up, never loses faith, and always hopes.

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The list of attributes in 1 Corinthians 13 is not just a bunch of nice ideas about what love looks like, they are the examples of how God loves us.  We can see this in how Jesus showed the love of God throughout his own life.

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Christmas is built on love.  And how we love each other indicates how the meaning of Christmas has affected our lives.

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Spiritual formation doesn't just happen by accident or because we want it to.   We need a plan of action, a movement towards maturity that puts boundaries on our lives to keep us headed in the right direction.  This is the idea behind a rule of life.

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One are of our lives that keeps us from the life we were made for is a lack of personal responsibility.  If we are always blaming others for our issues and for the consequences of our actions then we will not pay attention to the areas of our own lives that need to be changed.

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In a world of chaos those who follow Christ should bring peace.  We are called to bring the presence of Jesus into every context we find ourselves, yet there are behaviors in our lives that kill peace.  Today, we learn to recognize these peace killers and eradicate them from our lives.

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We can't live the life we were made for if we never learn to listen.  Listening is an intentional act that draws us closer to God and closer to each other.

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Our lives are often bogged down with frustration and discouragement.  But, adopting gratitude as an outlook in life is good for our body and soul.  We have so much to be thankful for that usually goes unnoticed.  In order to embrace the life we were made for, we must shift our minds from dwelling on the discouragements to recognizing the wonder around us.

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We will all experience loss in life of some sort.  And that loss will lead to grief, our soul's response to loss.  But, that doesn't mean we naturally handle it in a healthy way.  We need to learn to process grief in a way that leads us deeper into a relationship with God or grief will steal us away from the life that we were made for.

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There are layers to our lives and we often live from a script that was handed to us by others or one that we've assumed upon ourselves.  If we aren't honest with ourselves about where we are and who we are, then we can't live the life we were made for. 

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It's easy for us to live as if everything depends on us, or as if our worth is only as much as what we can accomplish.  But we push ourselves past what is healthy and our souls suffer for it.  Don't allow your pace of life to keep you from the life that you were made for.

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Our minds and hearts are shaped by so many of our experiences in life before we realize how much we need God to shape them.  It is critical for us to recognize the negative ways that our past has shaped us if we are to move forward into the life we were made for.

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We are told to love the Lord with our heart, mind, and soul.  But, most of us don't know what those parts of us are and how to use them to love God!  In this message we examine what it is that makes up who we are as humans and how God brings us to life when we look beneath the surface.