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Living in the Midst of Success

Day 1 of 3

Guest: Tony Dungy

From the series: Quiet Strength

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Bob: You've seen the locker room celebrations that take place after somebody's won a big game, right? Well, last year, when the Indianapolis Colts won the Super Bowl, there was a part of the celebration that most of us didn't get to see. Here is Indianapolis Colts coach, Tony Dungy.

Tony: Several of the players came to me and said, "Coach, we've got to finish this the way we always do. We're waiting to do the prayer."

Well, the Super Bowl is so different. There's so much coverage, the media is in there already, and people are just all over the place, and I just kind of held my hand up and said, "If you would just excuse us and turn the cameras off for three minutes, and let us finish our season the way we always do," and I think the reporters were really baffled because they thought they'd see the champagne and the celebration, and it was really our guys doing what they always do.

Bob: This is FamilyLife Today. Our host is the president of FamilyLife, Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine. We'll find out today that there is a lot that is different about the kind of football team that Coach Tony Dungy runs. Stay with us.

And welcome to FamilyLife Today. Dennis?

Dennis: Bob, today we're going to talk about the lord of the rings.

Bob: The movies or the books or …

Dennis: Neither.

Bob: Okay.

Dennis: The lord of the rings, and I happen to know a man who is here in the studio with us who has three rings, and we're going to talk about those three rings.

Bob: All right.

Dennis: Let me see your hands, Coach.

Bob: Well, he's just got one.

Dennis: Only one ring is on.

Tony: Only one ring, the most important ring.

Dennis: Where's the Super Bowl rings?

Tony: The Super Bowl rings, actually, both of them I wore for about a month right afterwards. Everyone wants to see the, and you kind of show them off, and it's exciting, and then after that there's another challenge, so you kind of look forward to winning the next one.

Dennis: Also, you're only going to allow yourself a month to wear the ring?

Tony: That's been the history. Now, if we win another one, maybe I'll bend that rule a little bit.

Dennis: Well, that's the voice of Coach Tony Dungy, who coached the Indianapolis Colts to the Super Bowl title, and I must mention you have another Super Bowl ring from your time with the Steelers.

Tony: Right, as a player with the Steelers in 1978 and then last year, 2006, with the Colts.

Dennis: You've written about the story of your life in a book called "Quiet Strength," and I want to tell you about reading your book, Tony. Barbara and I had some extended time off. We actually had a sabbatical. We've been in ministry for 37 years, and the board of directors of FamilyLife graciously allowed us to take 75 days, Coach. I hate to say that to a coach who works so hard year 'round, to cause you to stumble.

Tony: Ten years of vacation time.

Dennis: But I received a copy, you graciously sent me one, and I read it in about the first 48 hours of my sabbatical, and I have to tell you, it set the tone for my sabbatical and for our time together with the Lord and with one another, because your book is about your journey, and your journey of faith.

And I do want to talk about the lord of the rings, and there are those three rings we want to talk about, but I want to take you back to a confrontation you had with Donnie Schell.

Tony: Okay, yeah.

Dennis: And how he confronted you about your lack of faith. Because I believe the quiet strength you write about in your book is really built upon the family you came from and then some key intersections in your life.

Tony: Absolutely.

Dennis: And one of them occurred with Donnie.

Tony: Yes, sure did. Donnie Schell was my roommate. He was four years older than me with the Pittsburgh Steelers. He had gotten saved through a meeting with Dr. Paul Esserman [sp] at chapel before a game – really a neat, on-fire Christian.

So I come to the Steelers as a young rookie, 21 years old, and I get put in with this guy, and it was really life-changing for me because he was one of the first guys that I met that was on fire for the Lord, where you saw it in everything that he did.

And he mentored me for a year and a half, and I'm listening to him, reading with him, getting into my Bible, getting in heavy discussions at night, and, all of a sudden, I had an illness coming into my second year. I had mononucleosis, wasn't able to practice, starting to get frustrated, and he stopped me one day at training camp and said, "You know, you're professing that you believe in God, but I don't see it from your actions, I don't see it from the way you're handling this. God is trying to find out if He's in first place in your life or your career or football or something else, and that's what this is all about."

And I thought about that that afternoon, and that was the first time I really understood. I said, "You know what? You're right. I say that God's in first place, but I don't always exhibit that," and that was a big turning point for me.

Dennis: At that point, you began to walk the talk.

Tony: I really did, and I said that if I recover from this illness, and I'm able to continue to play, I'm going to know what really is important – that it's not football, that can go at anytime, and it's really serving the Lord wherever you put me, and so if you cause me to recover, and I'm still playing, I'm going to put You first. If I end up being someplace else, I'm going to put You first, and ever since then – I've been in football 28 years since then, but I've always remembered that – that it's really the Lord's career.

Dennis: You have a distinction at the Steelers, holding a record in the NFL that no other player holds, isn't that right?

Tony: I think I'm the last person to do it, and maybe one of the few people to do it since they started playing two platoon. Back when they just had one-platoon football a lot of people did it, but I actually caught an interception in a game and then game back and threw an interception later on in the game in 1977. So it hasn't been done in 30 years, and it was just one of those things that's hard to explain. It was a big day for me.

Bob: You were a college quarterback, right?

Tony: I was a college quarterback and changed to defensive back in the pros. My first year with Pittsburgh, I got my first interception in the old Houston Astrodome, and the game was rolling along pretty well, and then we started losing our quarterbacks, and everyone got hurt, and at the beginning of the fourth quarter, we didn't have anyone to put in. So because I had played there in college, they put me in.

Bob: The coach said, "Get Dungy over here."

Dennis: Exactly.

Tony: And I finished the game at quarterback, and it was a big thrill.

Dennis: That wasn't the only thing that you caught in Pittsburgh, though. Dr. John Guest introduced you to a young lady.

Tony: He surely did – a lady by the name of Lauren Harris, who was in his congregation at the time. I was filling in, actually, for another one of our players at a father-and-son banquet, and he talked to me and said afterwards that there's a girl in this congregation I think would be perfect for you, and I tried to avoid him for about a month after that, but he chased me down, kept after me, he kept calling me.

Dennis: You were kind of shy with the opposite sex.

Tony: I was very shy at the time, and also this was a large church. So I figured if there's 5,000 people in this church, and the girl doesn't have a boyfriend or can't find one in all these people, you know, maybe it's not that great of an opportunity.

[laughter]

But as it turned out, he was exactly right. She was really just a perfect complement to me, and we've been married 26 years.

Dennis: I want to take you back to that moment on her parents' couch in her home where you turned to her, and you were attempting a proposal. Now, I'm watching you on the sidelines of how cool and calm and what a leader you are, Coach, but I have to tell you, in your book "Quiet Strength," when I read the story I thought, "He couldn't define the relationship. She had no idea you were in love with her."

Tony: No, I thought I did a pretty good job, but apparently I left a few things, maybe, not quite on track but we were talking, and I thought I was myself very clear, but …

Dennis: You were talking about the ideal woman you wanted to marry …

Tony: … and what the marriage relationship should be, and how it was going to be joyous for a lifetime, and all those things.

Dennis: And she thought, in her mind, you were asking …

Tony: She thought I was just describing a hypothetical situation, I guess.

[laughter]

Dennis: She thought you were in love, you write in your book, with another woman and was seeking her advice.

Tony: I think she was exaggerating a little bit there but, yes, she didn't know exactly what I was saying, and I was trying to say this is what marriage should be like, and I think this is what it can be like for us, and it would be wonderful, and she didn't grasp at all immediately.

Dennis: Well, you were married and ended up with a great honeymoon story. Bob and I would like to ask – we love to ask honeymoon stories, because as Jesus Christ was the Lord of this ring in your life, the most important one, as you said, you started out your marriage with quite an adventure.

Tony: Yes, looking back on it, we laugh at it now, but it was a tough, tough time. We had a little difference of opinion right off the bat. We got married in Pittsburgh, and I said we should stay there that night after the wedding, relax, just have a nice evening there, and then we could fly out to our honeymoon and go. And Lauren's idea was she did not want to spend her wedding night in her hometown. So she wanted to take off.

So we flew – actually, we're going to San Francisco. We had the wedding, we flew, stopped in Denver, changed planes, flew – by the time we got there, it was very late, and we just ran into one problem after another. I ended up breaking the key to the car in the lock, had to wait an hour to get a replacement key. We finally got to our hotel in San Francisco, it's about three or four in the morning Eastern time, and we just get there and get up to the 12th floor, and someone cut the power, and so all the lights went out.

So we finally – it was just a long, long night, and, of course, I'm thinking to myself, you know, if we'd stayed in Pittsburgh, none of this would have happened. She's thinking, "Well, if you knew how to drive a car, none of this would happen." And it got off to a tough start, but then after two days in San Francisco, we kind of made up with each other, and then went to Hawaii from there, and it was really fun.

Dennis: Coach, as I read your book and also as I've watched your life, family is constantly emerging as one of your most important values. You've helped give leadership to a ministry called "All Pro Dads." You've spoken, you've written on the subject. Why is it such a part of who you are, especially in your job, because you really pay attention to how these coaches and players are dealing with their families?

Tony: It's important because I guess I've seen both sides of the coin. I grew up, both my parents were teachers, and they spent so much quality time in our lives. My wife's parents were the same way. Her dad was in real estate, and her mom was a nurse, but they were around all the time nurturing their kids. We saw the benefits of that, our kids saw the benefits of that with both sets of grandparents around, and as I got into this job and see more and more young men come up without that – that it was just the grandmother or just the mom or just the dad, and just seeing so much of that and realizing that they did not have the benefit of that close family, that nurturing, that I had, and we've got to get back to that as a country. I think that's so important.

Bob: The last time we sat down with you, I've never forgotten this – we asked you about the demands of coaching and how that interferes with family, and I remember you saying that you'd thought – I don't know if we'd just caught you on the right day or what, but you said, "I've wondered, maybe I'll do this a couple more years then turn it off."

So I kind of expected after the Super Bowl win that maybe you'd say, "You know, I reached it. That's it. I'm going to retire."

Tony: I thought about it long and hard, and my wife and actually talked quite a bit that week leading up to the Super Bowl. The week afterwards I talked to Jim Irsay several times afterwards, our owner, and I thought about it very seriously and decided to come back for a number of reasons. I think the platform that the Lord has given me is a great platform now, and I want to use that for Him, but it won't be long, it really won't be another few years, I don't think.

Bob: Do you think you can step away? I mean, is it – this is so much in your blood. You've done this …

Dennis: Well, Bob, but what he said he was going to do – he said he was going to coach junior high football.

Bob: That's right.

Tony: Well, I don't know if I'll coach junior high football, but I will do something on a volunteer basis. One of the downsides of this is you have your schedule laid out basically from July until February, and there's nothing you can do to change it. Labor Day, we're practicing; Thanksgiving, we're playing or practicing; Columbus Day, Christmas, New Year's, and for 27, 28 years, you have all that laid out, instead of being able to say, "You know what? I'd like to take a day off, or I'd like to take a Thursday off here." You don't really have one off day during the season.

So I think my ultimate will be able to spend a little bit more time with the family, to be involved in a church setting, a Sunday school year 'round, which I haven't been able to do in 30-some years. But also to be able to say, "You know what? I might be able to just take this Thursday off and do something with my kids because they've got a day off school."

Dennis: I want to talk about those other two rings, the other two Super Bowl rings you have and specifically the one you just won about a year ago, and I've been looking forward to asking you this question because as I watched the celebration after the game, you were there on the podium along with the owner of the Colts, Jim Irsay, and I was astounded that both in the AFC Championship and at the Super Bowl, he made a statement – this is not going to exact, but you probably know what I'm getting ready to say, don't you? Why don't you share with our listeners what he said, because it was powerful to me.

Tony: He said in both situations, he said this is a great setting up here, we're on this podium, we've won, we've got the national spotlight, and he said, "There's a lot of glory up here. But, really, we want to direct the glory to the Lord," and I think that caught a lot of people by surprise, because this was our first championship, and many people were expecting a lot of things, a lot of emotion, but they weren't expecting that.

I know I had a chance to follow him both times, and it gave me 45 seconds to a minute to really think about what I wanted to say on this platform with 100 million people watching, and I was able to just take off on that and say, "Yes, we are very, very thankful for this win. It was great for our organization, great for our Colts family, but we want to direct the credit to the Lord."

Dennis: In fact, after the game, there is a picture of what took place in the locker room.

Tony: A really unbelievable scene. We also finish like that. Normally, in every game, we come in – I come into the locker room, we gather all the players we have – what they call a "10-minute cooling off period," that you can just be with your players before the media gets in, so you can gather your thoughts and that type of thing.

So we always talk about the game, what happened, then we say our team prayer, and then we let the media in. Well, the Super Bowl is so different. There is so much coverage, the media is in there already, people are just all over the place, and we're probably 45 minutes after the game, and one of the players– or several of the players came to me and said, "Coach, we've got to finish this the way we always do. We're waiting to do the prayer."

So we've got all these people in there, and I just kind of held my hand up and said, "If you would just excuse us and turn the cameras off and the microphones off for three minutes and let us finish our season the way we always do," and everybody did, we all took a knee, even many of the reporters in there did, and one guy kind of disregarded my wishes, and took a picture of it. But it ended up going all over the Internet, it was in USA Today the next day, and I think the reporters were really baffled, because they thought they'd see the champagne and the celebration, and it was really our guys doing what they always do.

Dennis: The inscription under the picture in your book says, "For a brief moment, we pushed the Super Bowl trophy to the side, and we bowed and gave thanks to the God of the Universe."

Tony: Yeah, the picture was really powerful and, again, it's just a way of the Lord working. I had asked for no cameras, and one guy took a shot, but he got the perfect shot – we're there in a group, we're all kind of huddled up, the Super Bowl trophy is in the side of the picture. It's still visible, but it's not in the middle, it's on this crate where the oranges and the Gatorade are, and it is very symbolic that, hey, what the world sometimes thinks is so, so important, really is secondary in the long run.

Bob: Now, you say that, but you're heading headlong into another run for another one of those trophies.

Tony: Well, we sure hope so, and that's what you start every year with that being the goal, and that's why you play, that's why we play the 16 games in the playoffs, that's why our players train in the off season and lift weights and run and all those things. But what I try to remind the guys is – my favorite passage in the Bible is, "What would it profit a man if he gains the whole world but forfeits his soul."

So even though it's important, it's our goal, it can't be the thing that we focus on all the time, because that trophy, someone else is going to get it next year, hopefully, we do, but if we don't, someone else is. It's not going to guarantee you anything, it's not going to guarantee you happiness, it's not going to give you even lifelong prosperity. It's a goal, and it brings you together as a team, but it can't be your whole focus, and that's always my message to our guys.

Bob: You've heard people who observe sport say that somebody who thinks like you do is likely not to win many of those because unless you make it the center focus, the number one thing, you just won't have the drive to get there.

Tony: I've heard that, and before we won – that was one of the criticisms of me – that I don't take it seriously enough; that I don't put enough into it to really drive people to play beyond their capacity to win those, and that's why I was probably happier than anything – the way the game turned out – with us playing against the Bears and Lovie Smith coaching the Bears, a guy who I know, and he thinks the same way and has the same ideals and same thoughts about the Lord, to get there so we could kind of show the country – it doesn't matter what you hear, it doesn't matter what people think. Here's two Christian leaders of their teams, and it was just really, really, and honor to do it that way.

Dennis: You know, you did do it that way, and you honored Christ as you suffered setbacks and losses in previous seasons and also in winning. There is something you handed out, I believe, to almost every team you've ever coached, and I was just looking for it here in your book, and I can't find it. It's a piece about vision.

Tony: I can't quote it from memory, but, really, the message was we've all got to grasp the same vision, and if we have the vision of going forward, if we have the vision of going together, we can do it. No matter how good we are as individuals, if we don't grab that same vision, we're not going to get to our goal.

Dennis: And as you go for that goal, how you go about achieving it is just as important as the goal you achieve.

Tony: It is. And that's one thing I tell our team every year when we have our first team meeting in July when we start the season. Our goal isn't to win a Super Bowl, but if that's all we do, if we just win, and we don't do things right, if we don't impact our community, if we don't care for each other, if we don't take care of our families, if we just win a Super Bowl, you're going to be very disappointed at the end.

When we had our party after the game last year, I think that hit home to everybody. Yes, we won, but look how we won, look at the fun we had, look at how we kind of lifted each other up, look at what we did for the city of Indianapolis, we did it the right way, and we made our state proud. I think that was the thing that, sitting there, was more important to the guys than the fact that we just won.

Dennis: I'm grateful you put your story – I know you didn't want to write this book, but I'm really grateful you put that story in print, because it really does model for people what a walk of faith looks like from a very interesting career.

Bob: Well, there are obviously folks who agree with you because the book has been a New York Times bestseller, and we've got copies of it in our FamilyLife Resource Center. If you're a football fan or know a football fan, or if you just want to read a compelling story of a real walk of faith in a challenging environment, you can get a copy of Tony Dungy's book, "Quiet Strength."

Go to our website, FamilyLife.com, and in the middle of the home page, you'll see a red button that says "Go," and if you click that button, it will take you to an area of the site where there is more information about Coach Dungy's book. You can order a copy of the book online, if you'd like, or if it's easier, call 1-800-FLTODAY. That's 1-800-358-6329. Someone on our team will make arrangements to have a copy of that book sent out to you.

I was thinking, Dennis, about Friday night at our Weekend to Remember Marriage Conferences. One of the things we talk about is how couples need to be prepared as couples for the inevitable difficulties that will be a part of all of our lives. We're going to face challenges and trials, and the question is, will those challenges and trials bring us together or will they push us toward isolation? That's why we think it's so important for couples to take time regularly, get away for a weekend together and strengthen your marriage, build into your relationship.

We have dozens of FamilyLife Weekend to Remember Marriage Conferences taking place in cities all across the country this spring, and this week we're giving FamilyLife Today listeners an opportunity to register for one of these upcoming conferences at a discounted price. You will save $60 per couple off the regular registration fee if you sign up for the conference this week and identify yourself as a FamilyLife Today listener.

What that means is if you're registering online, you can go to our website and find out when a conference is coming to a city near where you live and get that date coordinated with your calendar and then, as you fill out the registration form, you come to a keycode box on the registration form. Just type my name in the keycode box, type in "Bob." We'll know you're a FamilyLife Today listener, and you will qualify for that special offer, $60 per couple off the regular registration fee.

Or call 1-800-FLTODAY, someone on our team can answer any questions you have about the upcoming conferences, they can get your registered over the phone, and just mention you're a friend of Bob; that you listen to FamilyLife Today, and that will entitle you to the same special offer. Now, again, it's only good this week so, today, go online or call us and get registered for one of these upcoming conferences. Some of them are starting to fill up, and we want to make sure you can attend when the conference comes to a city near where you live.

Again, our website is FamilyLife.com, and our toll-free number is 1-800-FLTODAY, and we hope to see you this spring at a FamilyLife Weekend to Remember Marriage Conference.

Well, tomorrow – you have heard people say that sports and athletics helps develop character. We're going to find out how that has been true for Coach Tony Dungy, who joins us again tomorrow. I hope you can be with us for that.

I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, and our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine. We'll see you back tomorrow for another edition of FamilyLife Today.

FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas, a ministry of Campus Crusade for Christ.

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FamilyLife Today® Radio Transcript

References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete.

Dealing with Pain

Day 2 of 3

Guest: Tony Dungy

From the series: Quiet Strength

Bob: If you've every watched a game where the Indianapolis Colts are playing, and the camera goes to the sidelines, and there's Coach Tony Dungy, and he seems so calm and composed. Well, the Coach says he hasn't always been like that. He learned some things from his father.

Tony: My dad was one of the most composed people that I knew, and he probably had the same personality as me, but when things would happen, he always looked at, "Well, what can I do to make the situation better?" And sometimes, with us, if it was chewing us out or getting on us or spanking, if that was going to help make it better, he would do that. But many other times it would be just explain the situation, here is how we need to do it better the next time, and I learned from him, but it took me a long time.

Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Thursday, January 17th. Our host is the president of FamilyLife, Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine. We'll hear today some of the other ways that the game of football has helped Tony Dungy develop character.

And welcome to FamilyLife Today, thanks for joining us. You know, the last time we had the chance to sit down and talk with our guest today, he was just a pro football coach. But …

Dennis: Just?

Bob: But now he's …

Dennis: Bob, you know how to insult our guests.

Bob: Now he's the coach of the Super Bowl Champion Indianapolis Colts, at least for another couple of weeks. We'll see how that comes out this year.

Dennis: That's right.

Bob: And he is the author of the number-one New York Times bestselling book, "Quiet Strength." He's kind of come up in the world, don't you think?

Dennis: Yeah. Coach, you've added a little bit to your resume since the last time Bob and I talked to you.

Tony: It's amazing. Now I go through airports, and people do – they recognize you much more because of the Super Bowl, and I think also because of the book, and it's been amazing to me. But I'm enjoying it.

Bob: I have to ask a question here, if I can. The Kansas City game this past year, you know, you threw the red flag on that touchdown thing? Now, you can't say anything about the refs, can you, without a fine or anything like that?

Tony: No, you have to be complimentary.

[laughter]

Bob: I went back and saw the tape – you went back and saw the tape, right?

Tony: Yes.

Bob: We saw the same thing, didn't we?

Tony: Yeah, I'm confused as to what it actually means to catch a ball now. I'll have to go back and work on that.

Bob: I just wanted to make sure I was thinking just along the same lines.

Dennis: I tried to keep Bob from doing that. I said, "He's going to get fined. It's not going to be pleasant."

Tony: No, I always just say I'm just confused at what it means to catch the ball. I used to think you had to catch it and hold onto it, but not anymore.

Bob: Nothing more than that, isn't it?

Dennis: As we watch you, though, on television on Sunday, walking up and down the sidelines, you just look like this calm, Tom Landry-style coach, who is just enjoying the afternoon watching his team. But in your book, "Quiet Strength," you mentioned you've got a problem with your temper. In fact, you said you like to think of it as venting. Your dad used to think of it as what?

Tony: Really dumb, not very smart, because you aren't helping the situation. And I learned a lot about that from him. My dad was one of the most composed people that I knew, and he probably had the same personality as me, but when things would happen he always looked at, "Well, what can I do to make the situation better?" And sometimes, with us, if it was chewing us out or getting on us or spanking, if that was going to help make it better, he would do that, but many other times it would be just explain the situation, here is how we need to do it better the next time, and I learned from him, but it took me a long time. I'm still maturing, and that calm demeanor that you see is not my natural state.

Dennis: You actually, I think, and back to what Bob tried to trap you into doing here again – you actually questioned a referee's call in the press conference one time and got fined 10 grand?

Tony: I did. In 1999, it was the first year of instant replay. We lost the game, and they told me afterwards that the replay official was wrong, and, you know, I knew the rules, and I did a little venting there, and it didn't help us win the game, it didn't change anything, it cost me $10,000, and I actually apologized to the commissioner. I said, "I know the rule, I violated that, and I understand the fine."

Bob: So what do you do when you feel anger today?

Dennis: Well, now, wait, before you ask that …

Bob: Okay.

Dennis: At that point, you heard your father's voice again, right?

Tony: Very strongly, saying, "Do you feel better? Did it help the situation? You vented, you got it off your chest, it didn't help your team win, and you're paying $10,000 to charity."

Bob: So when you feel anger today what do you do with it?

Tony: I really try to remind myself to think about the next step, and what am I going to do to improve the situation? Something has gone wrong, something that I don't like, and how are we going to make it better? And, usually, especially I've learned with officials, just yelling at them doesn't help. A lot of times they may say, "Hey, yeah, I may have missed that one," but if you do it in the right way, I think they're more likely to give you the benefit of the doubt the next time as opposed to just you go off on them. Human nature tells you that's not how to respond.

So it's tough, and what people see in that calm face, a lot of times, underneath, that's not what's really going on.

Bob: Have you had to coach players on their anger?

Tony: I do. I try to talk to our guys how to really manifest it, how to get it out, how to make it positive and to take that energy and work on the next play and not think about what just happened, what penalty should have been called, that type of thing. And, hopefully, they learn from me, because I learn from other people, especially my dad, but I think for me, too, it's been Christian maturity and just growing and praying about it, and I do pray before the games, "Let me keep my emotions under control, let me make good decisions, let me help my team at all times and not get caught in emotional outbursts."

Dennis: One of the verses that you quote in your book, "Quiet Strength," is 2 Corinthians 4, verse 8 and 9. It says, "For we are afflicted in every way but not crushed; perplexed but not driven to despair; persecuted but not forsaken; stripped down but not destroyed."

And, Tony, as I was reading your book, you not only revealed about your temper but also about moments that really bring men down and cause them to despair. And I want to take you to a moment when you walked the plank in Tampa Bay, and you were fired but, to do that, I want you to go back and paint the picture of what happened when you took your first NFL coaching assignment with a team that was really a cellar dweller.

Tony: I had been an assistant coach for 15 years and during, probably, the last four or five of those years, my name was being mentioned a lot, but I didn't get any of those jobs, and you start to wonder if you're ever going to get one, but I really believe that God's timing and His will that there was a place that He wanted me to go.

In 1996, the Tampa Bay job opened. I didn't know anybody in Tampa. Usually to get a head coaching job, you have to have some type of entre to the owner, the general manager. I knew no one in Tampa; didn't feel I would get the job. Jimmy Johnson and Steve Spurrier were the two hot names at that time. They both turned it down, and I got the job, and I really felt it was really the Lord doing it – so many things went the right way.

So you'd think that, "Hey, I know this is the Lord's will, that's why we're here, some great things are going to happen," and we were there six years, and some good things did happen, and some great times with football players. We started winning there, we never quite got to the Super Bowl, but it was an enjoyable time; some great ministry things, and you just think it's going to go on because that's God's will.

And we lost the playoff game to Philadelphia at the end of the 2001 season, and the owners called me in and said they were going to make a change, and they didn't think we could get to the Super Bowl as we were currently constructed, and it was very, very painful. It was …

Dennis: I want to stop you there because you write about this in your book, and the owners called you over to their house, and you described driving into a driveway that was guarded by these big oak trees, and you noticed where they were because you said when you backed out you wanted to make sure you didn't hit one.

[laughter]

But I was all set for this dignified noble meeting of men sitting down with a man and talking with him about terminating him from his employment, but that wasn't what happened.

Tony: No, it's hard in that situation, because it is almost like a divorce. You've been together six years, and you're going in the same direction, you've got the same goals and then, all of a sudden, the ownership felt like, "Hey, this isn't the way to go."

So it's hard, it's painful, they had already made the decision, and just basically called me and said, you know, "We're letting you go." And it was a very short, quick, to the point, and at that point I kind of exercised just what we've talked about. You can get angry, you can get frustrated, or you can say, "How do I make the situation better? Where do we go from here?" and my immediate thoughts at that point were God wants me to do something else. He may take me to another city in football, but maybe He's trying to get me to look at something outside of football. He brought me to Tampa for a reason. Maybe there are some ministry things that I would have never looked at if I stayed in football.

So I went home and talked to my wife and said, "You know, we just have to figure out where we're supposed to go from here." And for four or five days, I wasn't sure. I thought maybe it was doing something outside of football, and then I got a call from Jim Irsay, the owner of the Colts. He left a message on my voice mail and said, you know, "I think you're the perfect person to coach our team because of the values you have, the way you coach, that's what I want the Indianapolis Colts to represent. Please call me back."

And that was the beginning of coming to the Colts.

Bob: You describe your separation in Tampa almost like a divorce, and the way it happened was almost like getting an e-mail from somebody saying, "Oh, by the way, the marriage is over." It was maybe a step up from that. It was a short meeting.

Dennis: Sixty seconds.

Bob: And not a whole lot of time to process or to say "Thanks for the good years," or any of that.

Tony: No, we didn't really talk about that too much, and there was – you have to understand there was a lot of speculation. I was probably the last person to know. We had kind of gone through a lot of different what-ifs, and people had been saying in the newspapers, if we lost this playoff game to Philadelphia, they were going to make a change. I'd been given the assurance that that wasn't necessarily the case. I kind of went on that basis, and so you're reading this in the next day's paper that they're changing coaches, and you still don't think it's necessarily going to happen.

And at that time, it was probably best that just – that's how it was, and it was quick and to the point, it gave me a chance to move on and focus on what I wanted to do.

Bob: When you lost that game, did you feel like – I mean, the whole season is right there. Did you go home that night, and you can't sleep, and you're replaying the whole game in your mind?

Tony: No, I guess I really didn't. You're always disappointed when you lose in the playoffs because it's the last game of the year. You know you have to start from scratch again the next year, so I can't say, though, it was any more disappointing that any of the other playoff losses we had or that I thought any differently. I was just ready to move on, think about what we had to do to improve.

Dennis: As a man, to hold such a public position and to be fired, I mean, firing is not easy for a man at any level, but you were a hero locally in the Tampa Bay area. You'd taken a team that was a cellar dweller perennially and turned them into a playoff contender.

Tony: No, the difficult part is that it is so public that people are on the radio saying, "Is he or isn't he going to be fired? Is he going to be back? What do you think? I don't think he should be back. Yeah, I think they should give him another chance," and you're hearing all this being discussed, you feel like you've got the backing of your employers, but then you don't really know. So that was the tough part of it but, again, it just goes back to what we've been saying this whole broadcast.

If you have your faith in your job, if you have your faith in your employer, if you have your faith in the public perception of you, that can all change. You can always be disappointed. So you have to put your faith in the Lord and understand that He allows a lot of things to happen. Some things are unpleasant, but he's going to orchestrate it for good, and I know in looking back and people that have commented to me about the book, more people, I think, have gotten encouragement from the way I maybe handled negative situations than winning the Super Bowl or winning this championship game or whatever. More people, I think, can relate to the tough times.

Bob: You know, that's something – Pastor John Piper, I heard him preach a message one time, and it stuck with me. He said, "When good things happen, and you say 'Praise the Lord,' people aren't necessarily impressed by that."

Tony: Right.

Bob: "But when tragedy happens, and people see you with strength in the midst of tragedy, unbelievers scratch their heads and go 'Where does that come from?'"

Tony: That's what I think people who are not Christians, that's what they want to see. They want to see, "Okay, when things happen that you can't explain, when things happen tough, is this real?" It's very easy for it to be real when everything is going great. But let me see what happens – kind of what Satan said to the Lord about Job – let me see what happens when it's not so great. That's when we'll know, and I think that's our responsibility – to have the same feeling when we're up on the Super Bowl podium that we do when we're fired.

Bob: In that sense, your Tampa Bay firing may have been a stronger witness to your faith than your Super Bowl victory.

Tony: I think, in a lot of ways, yes, definitely.

Dennis: You know, it's interesting, again, in looking at your story, Tony, that it wasn't long after that your father died, and your mother had also passed away, and here you are, you'd faced these setbacks and yet in the midst of that, you were unwavering in calling people to both trust God, what you've just talked about here, and also back to their families and making sure they keep their families intact.

In fact, it was the losing of your father that really – it seemed like, in reading your book, at least, that really embedded the need to protect that circle of people that love you the most.

Tony: I think I did realize it at that point. My mom had died just before I got fired in Tampa, the end of the 2001 season. We came here, we got close to the Super Bowl a couple of times, and my dad died in 2004. And I thought this was the end, for me, of the training process. Everything that I had learned from those two people that had gotten me here now was over. I'm going to have some memories of that, and I'm going to continue to build on that, but they're not going to be able to teach me anything else, and now I've got to do the same thing. I've still got some years to teach my kids and to do the same kind of job that they did so that, then, their families can benefit the same way. That's when it hit me, when my dad died.

Dennis: You had a talk that you give at training camp, and that August was no different when training camp came together, and I want to read to you what you say at that training camp. You said, when talking to the team about what to do with making your family a priority, you said, "Deal with them, focus on them, and take care of any issues or problems related to them. If I ever learned that there was something with your family that needed to be addressed, and you put the team considerations before family without talking with me, there is going to be a problem, a big problem."

Wow, that's pretty stout.

Tony: Well, I try to say that every year because guys don't always know that you're serious. You know, they want to believe that but every year we'll get a situation, "Hey, I needed to go home, but I didn't know what you would say," and that type of thing, and I always want to let them know it always, always, always comes first. If you've got children that have health issues, whatever – if you've got parents, family, that's got to come first. We will adjust, we'll adapt, we'll make it work on this end at work, but don't neglect any situation with your family because of work.

Bob: That's not the universal coaching ethos around the NFL, is it?

Tony: It probably isn't. Hopefully, we're getting to more of that. You can get your job done, you can get your work done, and it's just a mentality that we've created, and I think we, as men, moreso than anybody, that work is important, and it is important. But it can't replace the importance of family.

Dennis: You actually have a once-a-month meeting by telephone with a number of NFL coaches – five head coaches along with several assistant coaches, and these kind of conversations are the kind of conversations you talk about right here.

Tony: You really do – what to do when this situation – we had one with the Minnesota Vikings. A player, Troy Williamson, lost his grandmother and went to the funeral, stayed, had to do some things to tie up loose ends, missed the game, and a couple of the coaches from the Vikings talked, "What should we do? Here is how we want to handle it." They actually kind of changed their mind of how to handle it and gave Troy a little more leeway and let him take care of some things because of a conversation that way.

Bob: And that's got to send a message to the fans who are tuning in on Sunday and hearing that this player is not playing, he's not here today, he is back taking care of things with his family, that's a loud statement to the fans who are watching football.

Tony: Well, that's what I wish people understood. We kind of put these guys in a bubble. They play on television, they have a job to perform for 60 minutes every weekend out there, and they should do it with no problems. But they're the same people that everyone else is, and they have the same issues and the same family problems. You know, we're not immune to those things. People sometimes think we are, that should be separate from who you are, but it isn't. It's all part of life.

Dennis: And it's part of your values, and what you are doing in the NFL is taking the leadership, not merely with a team, but with a group of coaches to encourage them in their faith to make their priorities right and to keep them right and to give them courage to stand by those convictions, long haul.

I have to ask you this question because you were courageous enough to write about it in your book. There was an advertisement that Terrell Owens, TO, who now plays for the cowboys, where he was advertising for a …

Tony: It was "Monday Night Football," yeah.

Dennis: Yeah, and it was an advertisement for "Desperate Housewives," and you took a stand, Coach, and I just want to thank you for using the platform. I know that you were misunderstood, but I heard you. I knew what you were talking about, and I just want to thank you for doing that, because there needs to be more courage like that from the boardrooms of America, not just merely from coaches but all across the nation.

Tony: I agree, and it was – you know, you always look back and think you could do things differently, and I wish I'd have said it a little differently, but it was important to me that we should not allow ABC to use our players and our league as a platform to promote something that isn't family-oriented on a show that a lot of families are going to watch in prime time television.

Dennis: It was a totally inappropriate advertisement, and I just appreciate you standing firm on that, and I also appreciate what you've written in your book, calling people to faith, because we're all on a journey, like you write about in your book. We don't know what the next phone call, the next e-mail, the next bend in the road has for us.

Tony: I had a great discussion with my son riding to school today, dropping him off. Sean Taylor, a young 24-year-old player for the Redskins, normally would have been at the game, was hurt. His house got burglarized, he was killed, and you're exactly right, we don't know the fact that we're 24 years old and playing in the National Football League, what the next phone call is going to be, and that's where the faith and what you believe in is so important.

Bob: Yes, it's one of the things we talk to couples about at our FamilyLife Weekend to Remember Marriage Conferences. We tell them that you don't know what's coming next in your family, in your job, in your health, your circumstances, your finances, and you've go to not only have a strong faith in Christ that has been developed during the calmer times, but you also have to have a strong relationship so that you don't move toward isolation in your marriage relationship.

This spring, Coach, after the season is over, we're going to have dozens of these conferences in cities all across the country, and we're encouraging our listeners this week to get registered for one of these upcoming conferences, because if they register before the end of the week, they will save $60 per couple off the regular registration fee for a FamilyLife Weekend to Remember Marriage Conference.

And it is a good weekend away where you can strengthen the foundation of your relationship so that you're ready when challenges come, because they're going to come in a marriage and in a family.

If you'd like to register for an upcoming conference, you can go to our website, FamilyLife.com, get all the information about when conferences are coming to what cities and make sure your schedule is clear, and then register online, and if you're filling out the online registration form, when you get to the keycode box, just type my name in – just type in "Bob," and that will identify you as a FamilyLife Today listener and will automatically deduct the $60 per couple from the regular registration fee as you fill out the form.

Or call 1-800-FLTODAY, mention that you listen to FamilyLife Today, and you want to register for an upcoming conference and, again, you can take advantage of this special offer for FamilyLife Today listeners, and it's over this week. So don't hesitate. Call or go online today and get registered for a conference, take advantage of the savings and enjoy your weekend at a FamilyLife Weekend to Remember Marriage Conference.

And, by the way, if you have not yet read Coach Dungy's bestselling book, "Quiet Strength," it's a terrific book, as Dennis said, and we've got it in our FamilyLife Resource Center. You can request a copy from us on our website at FamilyLife.com or you can call 1-800-FLTODAY, and we'll make arrangements to have a copy of the book sent to you. If you're a football fan or you know someone who is, maybe somebody who doesn't know Christ, this is a great gift to give to someone that may open a spiritual dialog with that person.

So, again, get a copy of the book on our website at FamilyLife.com, or call us at 1-800-F-as-in-family, L-as-in-life, and then the word TODAY.

Now, tomorrow, we're going to talk with Coach Dungy about what had to be one of the most difficult seasons he's had to walk through in his life. That was a season a few years back when his son, James, committed suicide. We'll talk about that tomorrow. I hope you can be with us for that.

I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, and our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine. We'll see you back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today.

FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas, a ministry of Campus Crusade for Christ.

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Victories in the Midst of Tragedy

Day 3 o 3

Guest: Tony Dungy

From the series: Quiet Strength

_______________________________________________________________

Bob: Tony Dungy, the coach of the Indianapolis Colts, has known tremendous success and joy as a football coach. He has also known profound loss and suffering as a dad.

Tony: My pastor in Pittsburgh had a great lesson on that when we were a young married couple. He said, "You know, James and Peter were in prison, and the church prayed for both, and James got beheaded, and Peter got released." Both of them were God's will, and we can feel badly for James, and I'm sure they all did, but God had a plan for that, and so that's how I've kind of looked at it – as painful, you never want it to happen, but how can you move on, how can you make the situation better?

Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Friday, January 18th. Our host is the president of FamilyLife, Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine. We will hear today how Coach Tony Dungy has dealt with the tragedy of the loss of his son to suicide. Stay tuned.

And welcome to FamilyLife Today, thanks for joining us on the Friday edition. This is a real treat, isn't it?

Dennis: It is a real treat. Coach Tony Dungy joins us again – welcome back, Coach.

Tony: Thank you very much. It's great to be with you.

Dennis: Congratulations, again, on your Super Bowl victory of a year ago, and …

Bob: I've got my fingers cross for this year, all right? I don't know if that does any good, but …

Tony: We'll take it.

Dennis: We're getting in trouble with listeners because this broadcast is heard in every state across the land.

Bob: I know, and I grew up …

Dennis: There are some other people who are fans for other teams, you know.

Bob: I grew up in St. Louis, so I really don't have anything to cheer for this year, so I'm [inaudible] Colts fans.

[laughter]

Tony: Well, we appreciate it. We'll take them all.

Dennis: Yeah. Well, Coach, there is an event that you're a part of and have been a part of for a number of years called the "Super Bowl Breakfast." My friend, Bill Pugh, and yours as well, along with Athletes in Action, host this on the day before the Super Bowl. It's a gathering of, I don't know, 1,500, a couple of thousand people, in a magnificent setting, to honor football players who have character, and they give an award called "The Bart Starr Award," which is just a – it's a great event. I've attended it a couple of times, and a couple of years ago you found yourself on that stage speaking in a situation that you didn't think you would find yourself in whatsoever. You had helped start a ministry called "All Pro Dad," you were helping dads be better parents, and yet your own son, Jamie, had taken his life.

I want you to listen a clip that we have from that breakfast and what you said, and then I want to ask you to take us to what you were thinking and feeling as you made those statements a couple of years ago.

Tony: [from audiotape.] But I think the most important lesson that I've learned about the Lord, I learned from my oldest son, James. As you heard, James would have been 19, but he died right before Christmas. James was a Christian, and he was, by far, the most sensitive, the most compassionate, of all our boys. As most teenage boys today, James was getting a lot of messages from the world that maybe that's not the way to be, and he was struggling very much with how you should respond to the world, and he ended up taking his life right before Christmas, and it was tough. It was very, very painful.

But as painful as it was, there were some good things that came out of it. When I was at the funeral, I talked about one of my biggest regrets. James was home for Thanksgiving and was leaving and going back to school and going back to work, and just the normal process. You don't think about it. I said, "Hey, I'll see you later." My daughter took him to the airport, we just exchanged, "See you later," and that was the last time I saw him.

I talked to him on the phone a lot, but never saw him again, and I shared at the funeral that my biggest regret was that I didn't give him a big hug the very last time I saw him.

I met a guy the next day after the funeral, and he said, "You know, I was there, I heard you talking, I took off work today, I called my son, and I said, 'I'm going to take you to the movies, and we're going to spend some time and go to dinner.'" That was a real, real blessing to me.

We were able to donate some of James' organs to Organ Donors program. We got a letter back about two weeks ago that two people had received his corneas and now can see. We got a letter from a girl in our church who had grown up with James, and she said, "We've been going to the same church in Tampa for all these years. I sat there in church every Sunday but never really knowing if there was a God or not. I came to the funeral because I knew James. When I saw what happened at the funeral, and your family and how it was handled, that was the first time I realized there has to be a God, and I accepted Christ into my life, and my life's been different since that day."

[applause]

And that was an awesome blessing. So all those things have kind of made me realize what God's love is all about. But here is the biggest part of that – if God had had a conversation with me and said, "I can help some people see, I can heal some relationships, I can give some people eternal life, but I have to take your son to do it, you make the choice." I know how I'd have answered that. I would have said, "No, I'm sorry. As great as all that is, I don't want to do that."

And that's the awesome thing about God. He had that choice, and He said, "Yes, I'm going to do it," 2,000 years ago with His Son, Jesus, on the cross.

Dennis: Coach, it's been three years. What's it like to listen to your words?

Tony: I can hardly even believe it, I guess, when you're up there talking, you don't know how it sounds. I'd always had the dream of taking my team to that breakfast and talking about the game, and that's what I had hoped to do that year, and it didn't work out that way. But I realize, at the time, I had a great opportunity to tell people about something more important than the Super Bowl, more important than the team, to talk about Christ and the lessons that I had learned from all three of my boys, and listening to it, it's hard to believe, but that was really what was on my heart at the time, and it was just the proper place to say it.

Dennis: You've taken the story, on more than one occasion, to be able to point people back to God and not become embittered toward Him but ultimately to move toward Him and toward faith and trust in Him. You really believe that's what we must do.

Tony: We have to do that, and there are things that we don't understand and why does God allow these things to happen? Why does God take situations that we think are tragic and use them? Why doesn't He always bless us the way we want to be blessed? Those are the questions that we'll never really be able to answer, but faith and believing really mean believing in all situations.

Dennis: Take us to the phone call you received. It was 1:45, three days before Christmas. I mean, you were accustomed, on occasion, to getting a phone call, perhaps, about a player getting into trouble, and when the phone rang that night, you had no idea what was about to be said.

Tony: No, you really don't, and it's quite a shock, and it's not a phone call you'd ever wish anyone would get, but I've talked to a lot of parents since then who have gotten the same type of call, and it's just – as painful as it is, you have to understand that it does happen; that we can't allow it to shake our faith; and we do have to move forward. And, really, the only way to move forward is with God's help.

Bob: You describe the last time you saw your son that Thanksgiving. There had been phone calls. Do you remember the last conversation with him?

Tony: I don't remember specifically the last conversation, but it was kind of like they all her, "Hey, what's going on? How was work? How was school? What are you up to? What are you going to do tonight? Where are you headed?" Just the normal things, and that's probably the biggest lesson I learned out of all that is we just can't take life for granted. The Bible says tomorrow is not promised to us, and we tend to think it is. We think everything is going to go along the way it normally does, and I think it's just made me more thankful for every little thing and the things that I don't want to take for granted anymore.

Bob: It's natural for a parent to think, "Did I miss a signal? Was there something I should have seen and should have known?"

Tony: You know, I talk to people all the time about that. You can second-guess yourself forever and go back and look at things that you'd hope to see. Most of the parents that I talked to are in the same boat. They really can't explain it, they'll never understand why. That's the hurtful thing is, is there something I could have done? Why didn't I see this?" But the fact is, most of the time you don't.

Dennis: Were there any hints that he was struggling with depression or with suicidal thoughts along the way that you recall at all?

Tony: Not really, not really. And, again, as I say, with most of the people I talked to, it's the same way – never really any idea at all, this is a total surprise.

Bob: You know, folks are going to hear you talking about this on the radio, and it's going to sound like the ache is gone.

Tony: It really isn't, but you have to move on, and you have to move forward, and you have to try to think about why God allows things to happen, and one of – my pastor in Pittsburgh had a great lesson on that when we were a young married couple. He said, "You know, James and Peter were in prison, and the church prayed for both, and James got beheaded, and Peter got released." Both of them were God's will, and we can feel badly for James, and I'm sure they all did, but God had a plan for that, and so that's how I've kind of looked at it – as painful, you never want it to happen, but what can be positive from it, how can you move on, how can you make the situation better?

Dennis: One of the things I've heard you say, Coach, is that rather than asking the question – why? We need to ask the question – what? That's the question you're trying to answer in the loss of your son.

Tony: What am I supposed to learn from this? What am I supposed to do to help other people? How can we make it as positive as we can? And you're always going to have the heartbreak, you're always going to have the pain in your heart, but how do you really look forward and see how you can go and grow from that point.

Dennis: You didn't go through this alone. This morning, in preparation for our time together, I called a friend who you also called – Tom Lamphere.

Tony: Okay, yeah.

Dennis: And so the day after you received the news of your son's death, you got on the phone with Tom and said, "Would you come and stay with our family over Christmas and spend some time with us?"

Tony: No. Tom called me and said he was coming. I said, "No, Tom, you need to be with your family," but Tom was our chaplain with the Vikings, and I had been gone probably six years at that point. But he's the type of person that is never going to leave you alone once you're one of his guys, and so he got a reservation, got on a plane, left his family at Christmas, and came and stayed with our family. That's just the type of person he is.

Dennis: And what did he do during that time, Coach?

Tony: He just prayed with us, and he talked about how we could move forward, and how we had to stay together as a family and really just was there and ministered to us, and that's what gave me the sense of what I had to do with other people, and that's probably why I talked to so many people at this point in time, because he gave our family a lift when we needed it, and I felt I can do that for some other people.

Bob: And it's critical, if you're going through something like this, to open the door to community and to guys like this to come in – not to go it alone, isn't it?

Tony: It is, and we were very fortunate. Obviously, part of being in such a public position, it's tough, because everybody knows about it, and you feel you're out there, but part of the benefit was we got so many cards, we got so many letters, so many encouraging notes, but there's a lot of people that those kind of tragedies happen to that don't have that, and how do they get encouraged and where are we for the normal person?

Dennis: You might find it interesting, Coach, in my conversation with Tom. I asked him what he remembered most about those three days with you over Christmas, and he said, "I was not surprised but was watching him lead his family spiritually." He said, "Coach was quoting Job when Job was addressing his wife and said, 'So we accept the good things from God and not accept the trouble that comes our way,'" and that you were leading your family in faith in the midst of what had to be just an enormous heartbreak.

And the other thing he said was, he said you went to church on Christmas Day. You led your family in not withdrawing or retreating but going ahead and stepping out and joining a community of believers.

Tony: We did, and it was a great thing for us. We got to see just how much the church cared and got that encouragement from the congregation and our pastor, and it was hard to do, because you really, at that point, didn't want to talk to a lot of people but, again, I think that's what, to me, sports kind of prepares you for – that there's disappointments, there are things – there are losses, you lose games, but you have to go on, and we're disappointed in life but if we really believe in God and really believe that He is in charge, He is working everything according to His plan for His glory, then you've got to accept it.

Dennis: Coach, I'm sitting here listening to you relive some of what has to be the most tragic moments of your entire life, and we've chuckled earlier about how you have this stoic personality that doesn't look like you have much of a temper, but you said you do, and you're feeling things that you're not expressing. Usually, when we pick a spouse, we pick someone who is the direct opposite of us, and I'm wondering how your wife, Lauren, has handled this tragedy, because she has undoubtedly handled it differently than you have.

Tony: No question – different emotions, and it's been much tougher, I think, on her. She is one that wears her emotions on her sleeve, and it's harder for the wives in our business, because they're not used to being in the public eye and having your whole life thrown open. So this has been very difficult, and she was close to James, you know, so it's been tough. But gradually it's improving, slowly but surely, and that's one of the things that I've related to a lot of people that I've talked to. The pain of losing a child never goes away, and I think for the moms moreso than the dads, it's even more acute.

Bob: Given the differences between how the two of you processed this – how have you tried to love her and lead her in the midst of this?

Tony: You have to try to be understanding, and that is one of the things in the loss of a child no matter how it is, people grieve at different times, different ways. They process at different speeds, and you have to be understanding of the other person, and there will be some days when you're doing well, and the other person isn't, and vice-versa, and you've got to be understanding, you've got to be loving at those times.

Bob: Parents who lose a child, it often has an impact on their marriage relationship.

Tony: Very much so. We had read that, we heard that from counselors, and you have to take steps to avoid that and you have to, every day, say no matter how it goes, we are going to be together in this, we're going to be united, we're not going to let Satan get a foothold in our marriage because of our emotional feelings. It's something you have to really work through, and I've talked to many, many couples who are experiencing the same thing.

Dennis: How have you helped your children? Because, you know, children who are real little don't understand at all, but your daughter was in her 20s when this happened?

Tony: Yes, it's been tougher on the older kids, without question. They understand it, they're both a little more introverted. Our young kids really are just trying to process the whole thing about what it means to die, what it means to be in heaven, but it's been a great teaching experience for us to talk about the Lord and heaven, the whole concept of where you go and how you get there. And so it's probably been a teaching moment for the young kids more than anything.

Dennis: You experienced your first Father's Day after that, and you happened to be with some NFL coaches on that first Father's Day after you lost your son, James.

Tony: Yes, and the first time around is tough. All those anniversaries, the first time, but I was with a group of guys that understood about fathering, they had the same type of Christian spirit, so it was a good group to be with and, again, I was able to share some things with them about the importance of not taking your kids for granted and that, and I think it was good for me to be with them, and I think probably they heard some things and saw some things from me that helped them, too.

Dennis: I asked Tom Lamphere about just how you processed this, and it was interesting, Coach. He said, "Coach Tony Dungy is the same man when he has lost a son to suicide as he was the same man when he won the Super Bowl as he was the same man who was leading his family." He said you're just consistently keeping on placing your faith in Jesus Christ, walking with Him.

And he went on to tell the story of what you had done that morning on that first Father's Day. He said he asked you how you were handling it, and you said this, this is what Tom said, he said, "Well, I got up that morning and spent time in God's Word, and I was focused on how much God loved me, and I was just overcome with how much God really does care for me and has a plan for me and loves me." And you shared that with those NFL coaches, and, you know, anyone else could share something like that in the midst of life, Tony, but to share that in the midst of a tragedy on a day like that, that's a remarkable thing.

Tony: Well, for me, that's what's gotten me through everything is to look forward and to understand that God is in control, and God is there for us not as an adversary but as one who does love us, and if we understand that, then I think you can take everything. It's just like with your parents – sometimes you're mad at them, sometimes they're not letting you do what you think you ought to be able to do as a kid, but you understand they have your best interests at heart, and even when you're not sure of why they're doing things, you know that they love you, and they're doing it for your best, and I think we've got to develop that same type of thought and relationship with the Lord.

Dennis: Well, Coach, I want to thank you for allowing us to come up here to the Colts headquarters and just draw the water out of the well of what God has done in your heart in your life. It was a privilege to do that a couple of years ago when Bob and I came up here, and we just appreciate you, the man you are, and how you represent Jesus Christ, and we're cheering you on as you continue to represent Him.

Tony: Well, thank you, and it's been great being with you these past three days and just a wonderful, wonderful privilege. Thank you.

Bob: Well, and we want to encourage our listeners to get a copy of your book. It's called "Quiet Strength," and it's a great book for football fans or just for people who want to read a compelling story of a man who has experienced the pinnacle of success in your profession and has also experienced some of the tremendous valleys that go deeper than most of us have had to face.

Again, the book is called "Quiet Strength," and it's a book that we have in our FamilyLife Resource Center. You can go to our website at FamilyLife.com, and if you click the red "Go" button that you see on the home page, that will take you to an area of the site where there is more information about how to order a copy of Coach Dungy's book. Or call 1-800-FLTODAY, and someone on our staff can let you know how we can make arrangements to have a copy of the book sent out to you.

Now, this is also the last chance I have to remind our FamilyLife Today listeners about the special offer that we've been making this week to our listeners – an opportunity for you to sign up for one of our spring FamilyLife Weekend to Remember Marriage Conferences and save $60 per couple off the regular registration fee. We're going to be hosting dozens of these conferences in cities all across the country this spring, and if you sign up today, right now, on our website at FamilyLife.com or by calling 1-800-FLTODAY, and you identify yourself as a FamilyLife Today listener, you can take advantage of this special offer that is about to expire. This is the last week we're making this offer available.

So, again, you sign up for a FamilyLife Weekend to Remember Marriage Conference. If you're doing that online, when you come to the keycode box on the form, you need to type my name, "Bob," in the keycode box, and that way we'll know you're a FamilyLife Today listener. If you call 1-800-FLTODAY, and you get registered over the phone, just mention that you listen to FamilyLife Today or say "I'm a friend of Bob," or some way to let us know that you listen to our program and, again, this special offer is available to you right now, but it ends this week. So either go online today or call 1-800-FLTODAY and get registered for an upcoming FamilyLife Weekend to Remember Marriage Conference, save $60 per couple off the regular registration fee.

Well, I hope you have a great weekend. I hope you and your family are able to worship together this weekend, and I hope you can join us back on Monday when we're going to talk about what you do when a teenager is angry. Lou Priolo will be our guest. I hope you can be here as well.

I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, and our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine. We'll see you Monday for another edition of FamilyLife Today.

FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas, a ministry of Campus Crusade for Christ.

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Life in Spite of Me

Day 1 of 3

Guest: Kristen Jane Anderson

From the Series: On the Edge of Hopelessness

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Bob: Kristen Jane Anderson was 17 years old and was ready for life…to be over. When she heard a ‘Freight Train’ approaching at the park where she was sitting; she decided to lay her body across the tracts.

Kristen: When the train stopped I wasn’t sure if I was alive or dead. I remember just opening my eyes and unclenching my fists and starting to look around because I didn’t know what to think. I didn’t know what it was like to die! Obviously I just had no idea what to think.

When I was looking around, I looked behind me; to my right…and I saw my legs about 10 feet behind me on my right.

Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Wednesday, September 8th. Our host is the President of FamilyLife and I am Bob Lepine. Kristen Jane Anderson joins with us today to share a remarkable story of survival and of faith.

And welcome to FamiyLife Today! Thanks for joining us on the Wednesday edition. We are going to hear a remarkable story today. A story of where there is hope! Actually to start things off, I want to read a Bible verse. This is one of my favorite Bible verses.

Dennis: I would feel better if you had a real Bible opened; I mean, instead of reading it off your iphone.

Bob: I love carrying this around.

Dennis: You do! You really do! You get a grin on your face when you scroll down to the passage

Bob: It is a little awkward when I am up front in my church reading from my iphone, but it is….

Dennis: You do it there too?

Bob: Yeah! This is the way I read my Bible now. And I love it!

Dennis: Okay!

Bob: 1 Peter 2:9 says, “You are a chosen race a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for His own possession …. ‘(And this is the part that I love)’ …….that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light.”

I think the story we are going to hear about this week is one of those out of darkness into marvelous light stories.

Dennis: I think you are right, Bob, and I think that our listeners; regardless if they are dealing with something troubling or challenging in their lives right now or rather if things are going well, they need to hear this story. It is the story of a young lady who joins us on FamilyLife Today, Kristen Jane Anderson, joins us today on FamilyLife Today. Kristen, welcome to the broadcast!

Kristen: Thank you for having me on.

Dennis: Kristen is a graduate of Moody, almost; right?

Kristen: Right!

Dennis: Almost a graduate of Moody Bible Institute! She is a popular speaker to college students and women’s events all around the country. She has been featured on Oprah, which we had some fun talking about before we came on the air here.

Bob: She was comparing you and Oprah …wasn’t she?

Dennis: She was! She was! She was…. And you actually asked her, “which was a bigger treat, to be on our broadcast …… or her (Oprah) TV program?

Bob: And let’s move on shall we?

Dennis: She has written a book called, Life In Spite of Me. I am just going to cut right to the chase here. Kristen, I am going to ask you to take us to January 2. You were in a park and it was dark and it was icy cold there and it was the most dramatic day of your life.

Kristen: Yes! I was at the park and I was there because I didn’t feel like I could go home. I didn’t want to go home. I didn’t want to get in trouble and I thought I was going to disappoint my parents again. I was at the park just kind of trying to waste time and to figure out what I was going to do next and I was swinging on the swings and as I was there I started to think about why I was there.

Why did I feel like I couldn’t go home? Why did I feel the way that I did inside? I was struggling and then I remembered that in the park that I was in that you were supposed to be out of the park after the sun goes down. I knew that the police come and patrol the park and if you’re in the park after dark they make you leave.

The reason I was there is that I didn’t want to go home, so I looked around to see where else I could go and I saw that there had been a set of train cars parked on the edge of the park. I knew that they had been there for about 3 weeks. I walked over to the train cars and I sat on one of them. Then I started to think about a thought process that I had had about 3 months beforehand. It was after one of my friends had taken his life. He had taken his life by hanging himself in the cemetery.

Dennis: You were 17 years of age?

Kristen: Right! I had no idea how to handle it and I didn’t understand it. I remember thinking, “I don’t know how he could ever do that. How could he ever take his life?” And then I thought, “I don’t know how he could do it the way that he did it, especially that way.”

But then my thought process changed and I started to think, “Well if I was ever going to do it, how would I do it?” I went through a lot of different things in my mind that I had heard about in school or on TV; different ways people try to end their lives and none of them seemed like they would work or be good enough, until I heard the train go by my parent’s house.

I heard the whistle blow and I felt the house just kind of shake. I could feel the power of the train and I thought, “That is one way that I would never live through it.” It just kind of snapped in my mind and I never thought about it again until sitting on the train that day. And that is when I started to consider suicide, by train, as the answer to my pain.

Dennis: So, at that point what did you do? I mean, how long did you have in advance warning that the train was coming?

Kristen: Oh! I saw it coming; I probably had a minute before it got to me. I didn’t know how long it would be before the next train came and it was freezing out and I knew I couldn’t stay outside much longer. So, right before it got to me, I made the impulsive decision to lay down on the tracks. It wasn’t something I had decided before it started coming. I made the decision right before it got to me to lay down on the tracks. I got off the train that I was on. I walked down the rocks that those tracks were on. I walked up the tracks that the other train was on. And I laid down right before the train …got to me.

Dennis: How did you lay across the track?

Kristen: I lay between the tracks. My head and my body were between the tracks and my legs were hanging over. I closed my eyes. I clenched my fists and I turned my head in the opposite direction that the train was coming. I just tried to push down all the fear and the shame and I just laid there. I mean, it was only a fraction of a second … before it ran over me.

Bob: So, you could see it coming and you just laid down on the tracks with it coming?

Kristen: Yes.

Dennis: So, I have got the picture in my mind at this point… Here is a 17 year old girl who is hopeless. Who has really lost hope about her life and you are going to end it in, as you said, an impulsive decision; to lie down on the tracks in front of a train. Was the ground shaking as it …?

Kristen: Yes! I felt the ground shaking. I felt the tracks shaking. I felt the wind of the train and I heard it roaring over me. I felt it begin to suck me upward almost into itself which is really what should have happened, because 33 Freight Train cars went over me at 55 MPH. So, I should have been sucked up into the train and basically torn to pieces.

I guess that’s what happens normally when a train is going that fast with the way that I was positioned. I felt my body begin to rise upward and I then I felt it begin to be pushed down into the ground; like there was this tremendous weight or force or wind beginning to push me down.

Dennis: You know…I have 4 daughters…., I know that as a teenager, young ladies can; as Bob said earlier, can believe those voices. And that there is really a battle going on for the souls and for the lives of young people today. I have never, ever talked ….to a young lady, however, who… acted on those and obviously, today is alive ….to be able to tell the story of what took place.

There is more to this story that we want to share, but I want to take our listeners back to the home you grew up in. Just talk about the spiritual condition of that home, what you learned about God, what you believed about God, and your relationship with your parents.

Bob: Yes! How you got to where you got. I mean, was there any spiritual background in your home growing up?

Kristen: Yes! I grew up going to church. I remember going to youth group and things like that, but I didn’t know the difference that God can make in my life. When things started to go wrong I had lost about 3 friends and my grandmother within a year ½ of time. I lost one friend in a motorcycle accident. I lost one in a car accident. I lost one to suicide and I lost my grandma just because of her age. Also, in that period of time I was being stalked by 2 young men and I was raped by another.

Bob: Oh man!

Kristen: So, I had no idea how to handle that. I had a really hard time believing it. I kind of tried to forget about most of it, I just didn’t know how to handle any of it and I felt like everyone else was handling everything fine. My family, my friends, they just all seemed fine. I remember asking my mom one time, “How do you do it?” I remember her telling me, “You just do it;” because I didn’t know how to handle it.

Dennis: There was also something occurring in your family that you have not mentioned here that was adding to your despair; and that was what your dad was going through. I mean from the time you were a little girl, your daddy was under a dark cloud of depression. Can you comment on that?

Kristen: I was in about 5th grade when I found out that my dad was diagnosed with depression. He was grateful when he found out because he knew something was wrong with him. He was diagnosed with Hypothyroidism and depression, but I did not know what that meant. I remember thinking, “Well you are not sad all the time, why are you depressed?” I remember thinking, “Even being sad a little bit, why he would be sad, because he had us – we had our family.”

But I didn’t understand the struggle that he was in. I remember in high school I would come home and he would be sleeping; I remember that he just wasn’t there for me. I knew that he loved me and that he was present, but I didn’t have much of a relationship with him. I had a very close relationship with my mom, though.

Dennis: And you know I am listening, Kristen, to the emotions that are coming back that are a decade old. This was a traumatic time in your life and having to deal with trying to sort through… suicides, deaths, rape, and even your father’s inability to connect with you.

Bob: Did your family know about the rape?

Kristen: No! They didn’t! I didn’t tell anyone.

Bob: So, you are processing a lot of this just locked down inside yourself?

Kristen: Right! That is one of the things my mom mostly talks about; she wishes she would have known. They were trying to get me help. They knew something was wrong, but they didn’t really know what had happened or what was bothering me so much. They asked me, but I wanted to be tough; I didn’t want to have problems, so I didn’t talk about my problems. I tried to be the person that helped everybody else ….and I kept all my problems to myself.

Dennis: You were how old at the time?

Kristen: I was 16! It was the summer of my 16th birthday.

Dennis: And your response to that; I am sure you have found out now after sharing your story on college campuses, is not out of the ordinary. There is a lot of this occurring, and there is a lot of secrets being kept in the closet.

Kristen: Yes! There are!

Dennis: Because of shame and fear and what might happen.

Kristen: Right!

Bob: But to stuff all of that inside a 16 year old soul and with all that you were going through, it is no surprise that it erupted. I mean, looking back on it now, and I mention the demonic influence and we can’t discount that, but the life’s circumstances and again, it all getting kind of compressed and pushed down. You can see where somebody gets to a point where they go, “why stay?’

Kristen: Yes! It just ate away at me. I had held on to hope, but it was getting less and less and less. And, that one moment was the moment that I had lost hope.

Dennis: You didn’t have a faith in Christ at that point to process all the evil that was occurring to you and around you and to your friends. So, there was no ability to interpret and to make sense and to have understanding at that point.

Kristen: Right! I wasn’t even trying to do it myself because I couldn’t make any sense of it. If I would have had a relationship with God, I know that I would have went to Him for understanding. I didn’t even know that He offered understanding or comfort or wisdom or strength in difficult times. So, I just tried to stuff it down and to handle it all myself.

Dennis: And to the parent, right now, who is listening and they are saying, “Man, I wonder if this is taking place in my daughter or possibly my son?” What would you say to a mom, a dad; who has maybe sensing something is up, something has happened, but can’t break through.

Kristen: I would tell them to talk to their son and daughter and actually specifically if they have had suicidal thoughts. Ask them on a scale of 1 – 10, how much hope they have. Ask very specific questions because when you ask kids how they are doing, they are usually going to tell you they are fine. Or they are going to tell you on a surface level, but if you ask the tough questions they will tell you how they are really doing.

I think that it is really important that parents listen and they don’t judge them and they don’t react in an extreme way. They need to be very, very understanding. I know that most of the adults and youths that talk to me; talk to me because they know that I understand. I think kids need their parents to understand, they need their grace and they need them to pray with them and model a relationship with Christ for them. Help them know how they can go to God for strength and for comfort and for understanding in difficult times.

Bob: Kristen, as you were laid out across those railroad tracks, your legs dangling out off the tracks, train is coming; did you remain conscious through the entire point of impact? You said it was 33 cars at 55 mile per hour; there must have been a couple of minutes that the train …..

Kristen: Yes! I was conscious the whole time. I remember it all completely!

Bob: Were you thinking, “Well, I must be about to die soon?”

Kristen: Yes! I was waiting to die. I thought it – “Any minute now…” Actually when the train stopped I wasn’t sure if I were alive or dead. I remember just opening my eyes and unclenching my fists and starting to look around because I didn’t know what to think. I didn’t know what it was like to die! Obviously I just had no idea what to think.

When I was looking around, I looked behind me; to my right and I saw my legs about 10 feet behind me on my right. I knew they were my legs because they have these brand new bright white tennis shoes on them that I had just gotten for Christmas. But, it just seemed like it wasn’t real, this couldn’t be happening, this had to be a horrible nightmare – and this couldn’t be happening. I kind of tried to gather myself and I crawled out from underneath the train.

I looked down at my legs to see if they were actually gone.

In that moment this tremendous peace just came over me and I started hearing this song, “Amazing Grace,” playing over and over in my head and I just thought, “I must be dying! I must be going to heaven! That could only be music from heaven!”

What I feel like God was doing is just meeting me in that moment and showing me, “Kristen, you don’t need your mom, you just need Me! You don’t need your mom, you just need ME! I am the only ONE who can help you in this circumstance!”

So, I remember just resting in that peace though. I think I might have started to lose consciousness because the next thing I remember is feeling a Firefighter take my hair off of my face and pull it behind my ear. I had not heard him come up to me, but when he did that I opened my eyes and looked up at him and he kind of stumbled back because he…. wasn’t expecting me to be alive.

I remember just feeling anger and fear rise up in me because I didn’t want anyone to see me like this. I didn’t want anyone to help me or save me. I was embarrassed too! I just didn’t know what to think or feel or do, but he radioed to all the other medical personnel of my location, my status, and they tried to call …Flight-For-Life.

But they couldn’t bring in Flight-For-Life… because the weather was too bad, so they did something that they had never done since; that wasn’t protocol that they had never done before. They blocked all of the intersections and roads from where I was to the closest hospital that could take me. That was normally a 45 minute drive, but the police report says they got me there in 8 minutes.

Dennis: “Hmmmm”

Kristen: So, I think, I can only attribute that kind of speed to God! I definitely see Him in those details! When I got to the hospital, the doctors and nurses were kind of in shock because I had lost 8 pints of blood; and scientifically you are supposed to die after you lose 5. Not only was I alive, I was talking. I knew my mom and dad’s phone number and my sister’s phone number; things like that and they were writing them down so they could tell them what had happened to me.

I remember looking up to the man in the white coat next to me who I assumed to be the doctor and asking him if he thought I would l live. I remember him telling me, “he didn’t know.” He says that he said that because he knew that I needed to fight… I could die… but that to live I needed to fight …because I shouldn’t have been alive and …..Nobody knew how much time I had left.

Bob: Were you still thinking at that time, “Well, I guess I will die soon?”

Kristen: I was hoping that I would die in surgery. Or something like that.

Dennis: I am listening to your story here and I am seeing you smile; I am also seeing you cry. And it is because in the midst of this trauma you found …the God of the universe and you found… redemption and you found that personal relationship with Christ and instead of hearing a song about, “Amazing Grace,” you now sing it!

Kristen: Exactly!

Dennis: Yeah! And you have found the ONE who did bring hope! We want to share more of that story later with our listeners. I am just wondering, Bob, if there is a person now, who doesn’t know Christ and where they are. I would just encourage them to give us a call and let us put some literature in your hands so that you can come into a personal relationship with Christ. There just may be somebody listening right now who may be on the precipice of what you were doing and I don’t want them to have to go through the trauma that you went through to find Christ.

Bob: The reality is that there are circumstances that come in life that lead us to despair. I think Dennis, about the book of “Psalms” and the times that David the psalmist found himself in those moments where he cried out with the kind of desperate anguish that you described, Kristen. The kind of hopelessness that he felt and that you felt. And yet, the message of the gospel is a message of hope in the midst of despair; that the circumstances of this life are not the defining reality that shapes our existence.

I just want to encourage listeners if you are at a point of hopelessness and despair and you don’t have settled in your own heart the reality that there is God who loves you, who is in control of life, and who knows what He is doing; and who walks with you through the valley and brings you out on the other side.

If you don’t know that God; if you don’t have a personal relationship with God through Jesus Christ, I want to encourage you to call us at 1800-FLTODAY and ask for a copy of the book, Pursuing God. It is a book that we will send you, at no cost and that will introduce you to what it means to have a vital relationship with Jesus Christ.

Again, call 1-800-FLTODAY and ask for a copy of the book, Pursuing God, and we will send it to you at no cost and we pray that God will use this book to bring hope and help in the midst of whatever circumstances you find yourself in.

And then let me encourage you to go online at FamilyLifeToday.com; to find out more about Kristen’s book, Life in Spite of Me. It is her story and it is an extraordinary story of hope after of what she intended as a fatal choice!

Again, go to FamilyLifeToday.com; for more information about Kristen’s book. There is also information about other resources that we have on depression and on suicide. You will find it on FamilyLifeToday.com; or if it is easier to call us toll-free, 1-800-FLTODAY. Do that, call 1800-358-6329. That’s 1-800 F as in “family” L as in “life” and then the word TODAY. And we can make arrangements to have the resources you need sent to you.

Now, let me just mention to you that we have heard from many of our listeners over the last week who have gotten in touch with us to get more information about our Valentine’s week Love Like You Mean It cruise that we are going to be taking February 14-18, 2011. Dennis and Barbara, Crawford and Karen Loritts are going to be on the cruise with us; along with Kirk Cameron and Shaunti Feldhahn, Big Daddy Weave, Selah, Point of Grace. It is going to be a great week-long cruise for couples.

Last week and again this week we have been letting FamilyLife Today listeners know that you can sign up for the cruise ; and we have got a limited number of cabins still available, but you can sign up basically for half-price. It is Buy-One-Get-One free. Your stateroom is half-price when you sign up this week.

If you want to take advantage of this special offer for FamilyLife Today listeners, when you sign up you have to type, my name, “BOB”…in the promo-code box on the online registration form. Get more information when you go to FamilyLifeToday.com and click the link to the LoveLike You Mean It cruise and then make plans to join us Valentine’s week, February 14-18, 2011 for the FamilyLife – Love Like You Mean It cruise; again more information online at FamilyLifeToday.com.

And, be sure to join us back tomorrow. Kristen Anderson is going to be here again, and we are going to hear about the hope that followed the despair in her life. I hope you can be here with us for that!

I want to thank our engineer today Keith Lynch and our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I’m Bob Lepine. We will see you back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today.

FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas.

Help for today. Hope for tomorrow.

©Copyright 2010

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FamilyLife Today® Radio Transcript

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Life in Spite of Me

Day 2 of 3

Guest: Kristen Jane Anderson

From the Series: A Flicker of Hope

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Bob: When she was 17 years old, Kristen Jane Anderson sought to end her life by lying across a railroad track as the train was approaching. Miraculously, she survived; although her legs were severed. She was soon to realize that God had a purpose for her life.

Kristen: Three months after I lost my legs, I was out of the hospital. We went back to church that Sunday. A woman came up to me who had heard about what happened to me. She told me that I would have gone to hell if I died. It was very difficult at the time, but I am very grateful that she was that bold at the time because it helped me see my need for Him. It helped me think about where I would have gone eternally. “If I had died, where would I go?” I had never thought about it more than at that time in my life.

Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Thursday, September 9th. Our host is the President of FamilyLife Dennis Rainey, and I’m Bob Lepine. Kristen Jane Anderson joins us today to share a story of beauty from ashes and redemption from tragedy.

Welcome to FamilyLife Today; thanks for joining us. I have read the statistics about teenage suicide, about teens who overdose on a handful of pills from the medicine cabinet or who do violence to themselves in some way to take their own lives.

Dennis: Right.

Bob: I don’t know that I have ever heard a story like the one we are hearing this week.

Dennis: Yes. We have a guest with us this week who is willing to tell a profound story, quite a drama. Kristen Jane Anderson joins us on FamilyLife Today. Welcome back.

Kristen: Thank you.

Dennis: Kristen, you have written a book called Life, In Spite of Me. As our listeners heard earlier, that really is an understatement. A lot of things had taken place in your life that had left you hopeless, right?

Kristen: Yes. A lot of things happened.

Dennis: Yes. Your father was struggling from depression as you grew up as a little girl and as a teenager. You had three friends, as a teenager, who lost their lives—one to suicide. You had a couple of guys stalking you—one who raped you. You were hopeless and no one knew it.

Kristen: No. My family especially knew something was wrong with me because it wasn’t in my character to not come home when I was supposed to. I had started drinking and smoking and things like that. That wasn’t anything I had done before. I also stopped playing soccer. That was something that I loved to do, and so they knew something was wrong with me. They just didn’t know how much was wrong inside and how I was feeling.

Bob: You say they knew something was wrong. If you were to look back and say, “There had been something going back in my heart and soul for a month...three months...six months.” What?

Kristen: I think that it was a lot going on that whole period of time, but I think the last six months before my attempt were the worst. I think I just kind of died inside. I didn’t care about my life or anything anymore. I drove around hoping somebody would hit me. I wanted my life to end. I didn’t want to take it, though.

People would ask me how I was doing. I would say, “I’m here.’ Kind of like, “Isn’t that good enough?” I had just a much more negative and a little bit of a bitter attitude. That wasn’t my normal demeanor, but at the same time I still had a smile on my face. So people really were confused.

Bob: Here it is the second day of the New Millennium, January 2, 2000. It is a cold day. You left the house, sitting in a park, just thinking about life. The impulse—really—it was an impulse hits you.

Dennis: Yes. I want to make a comment about that because I have read this before that a number of suicides that occur among young people are done, not in a sense of really thinking it through, but just deciding at the spur of the moment.

Kristen: Right. For me, it was. I could never have made that as a rational decision. If I was going to do it, it would have had to be impulsive. I think that most people would think that way. I think most kids, especially. They know that suicide is wrong. They can never rationalize it enough to think it is okay or it is right.

Bob: You didn’t think about writing a note saying, “It’s all over.” You didn’t have time.

Kristen: No. I didn’t have time and I wasn’t worried about other people. I was in a very selfish place.

Bob: So you went and laid across the railroad tracks with a train coming. Did the conductor see you dive across the tracks?

Kristen: Yes. The police report says that the conductor said to the engineer, “Did you see that yellow flash?” The engineer said to the conductor, “Yes. I think we just hit someone.” The yellow flash that they saw was this yellow jacket that I had on—my winter coat.

Dennis: It was a new coat that you had just gotten for Christmas was it, or was that the jeans you had gotten?

Kristen: Right. The coat was new; the shoes were new. All of it was new actually.

Bob: So you dove across the tracks. The conductor, the engineer said, “I think we just hit somebody.” They put on the brakes, brought the train to a stop?

Kristen: Yes. Then they called 911.

Bob: And came back finding you lying on the tracks, legs severed—one below the knee and the other...

Kristen: They didn’t come to find me, but the paramedics found me.

Bob: Okay.

Kristen: Yes, but with my legs severed.

Bob: You have already shared with us this week that you were in record-time taken to the nearest hospital in your area—wheeled into surgery.

Dennis: Still wanting to die.

Kristen: Yes.

Bob: And still thinking that was probably where you were headed. What is the next thing that you remember?

Kristen: The next thing I remember was waking up in Intensive Care. I was in surgery all night long. The next thing I remember was waking up—opening my eyes, trying to figure out where I was. I saw my mother, my dad, my brother, my sister, and my brother-in-law all in the room, their arms crossed and their faces looking down at the floor. I couldn’t understand where I was or why everyone looked so unhappy.

Then my mom ran to the side of my bed. She said, “Honey, we are so glad you are okay.” I remembered what had happened the night before. I said, “Mom, they cut my clothes and they cut my coat.” She said, “Oh, honey. It’s okay. We are just glad you are here. We can get you new ones. Don’t worry about that.” She couldn’t believe that I said that.

I also wasn’t thinking about the fact that I had lost my legs. In that moment I hadn’t really understood the reality of it yet.

Dennis: Were you angry at that point that you were alive?

Kristen: It was interesting because at this point everyone was so happy to see me, and they were so happy I was alive. I had mixed emotions. I was beginning to be a little bit grateful that I lived, but I was still hoping that I would maybe slip away.

Bob: Even in that moment, your desire to die—the thing that had propelled you onto the tracks—the thing that was still with you when the paramedics found you—now you are recovered; your family is there. They are saying, “We are just so glad you are here;” and you are still thinking, “I just want to go. I just want to be done with this.”

Kristen: One of the things they have told me since then is that they were worried. If I didn’t want to live my life with my legs, how was I going to want to live my life without my legs? That is kind of the place I was in. I didn’t want to live my life with all my other problems and now I didn’t have my legs! How was I going to do that? I didn’t think I could do that.

Bob: So the despair that had kind of come upon you impulsively was now gripping you in terms of just wanting it all to be over and life to end. There was still no sense of any kind of hope for the future for you.

Kristen: It was small. It was very small. I didn’t know what the future held, and because I was on a lot of medication—my emotions were very numb, which was good and bad at the time. It caused me not to think a lot—not to feel a lot; but I had hope, more than anything, in people.

My hope was because people told me, “There is a reason you are here. God kept you here for a reason. There is something you are supposed to do here.” That was really encouraging to me. I didn’t know why He kept me here or what I was supposed to do here; but I kind of held on to that because I realized that because of how much blood I lost and because of how many cars had run over me as fast as they did—all the scientific details—I knew I should have died; but I was alive. That did speak some volume to me about God and His faithfulness and His goodness and His love for me. I had a small hope that was growing.

Dennis: There is one more emotion that you undoubtedly had to experience because you mentioned earlier that what kind of propelled you onto the tracks was you were really thinking about yourself. You didn’t write a letter to your family members say, “Goodbye.”

Kristen: No. I thought about them on the tracks. I thought, “They will get over me,” or things like that. I was worried how they would feel, but I was more consumed with my own pain.

Dennis: When you finally kind of came to, and the drugs began to wear off, undoubtedly you began to experience some shame.

Kristen: Yes.

Dennis: And some embarrassment at what you tried to accomplish but didn’t. I mean, you were alive!

Kristen: Right.

Dennis: And even though God was at work in your soul, how did you handle that?

Kristen: It was a really hard for thing for me. I actually didn’t remember laying on the tracks for a long time. People told me that the police report said it was an attempted suicide and everyone assumed it was, but I didn’t remember doing it. I had a really hard time accepting that for a long time, but I began having flashbacks.

Eventually I had a full flashback where I remembered laying on the tracks. That was devastating for me because I did not want to believe that I would do something like that; but it brought me closer to God because I started crying out for Him.

I knew—I just felt so broken—I was so full of shame—I was so embarrassed. I was so overwhelmed, but I had started to work through some of the stuff that had happened before my attempted suicide in counseling so now I started to work through my actual attempted suicide.

Bob: You said that you grew up in a home that was a church-going home and that you had been in church but you had not really heard about a personal relationship with Christ. In these times of despair and dealing with the circumstances you lived with, what were the influences that were drawing you in the direction of God?

Kristen: Three months after I lost my legs, I was out of the hospital on a weekend visit before my next surgery. We went back to church that Sunday. A woman came up to me, who I didn’t know, who had heard what had happened to me; and she told me I would have gone to hell if I had died. I had never thought about that before.

Dennis: Wait. Wait a second. You are talking about somebody at church came up to you and said you would go to hell?

Kristen: Right.

Dennis: How did that hit you?

Kristen: It was very hard for me because I had never thought about whether or not I would have gone to hell if I had died. I thought about it a little bit, but not really, because everyone around me told me, “Kristen, you would have gone to heaven. Don’t worry about it.” They assured me of that, but I began to worry when she told me that there was a chance I could have gone to hell.

I didn’t just want to accept the “feel good” answer or think naively about it. I wanted to know if I would have died, where I would have been. If I would have been in hell right then, I wanted to know it. So, that is when I really started asking God where I would have gone.

Very shortly after that, a couple, who were friends with my sister, came over to have dinner with my parents and me just to encourage us after everything that had happened. I found out that the man was studying in seminary to be a pastor. I took that as my opportunity to ask someone if he thought I would have gone to hell if I had died.

He told me that every single one of us are created to be in a personal and intimate relationship with God, but because of our sin, because of the wrong things we have done, we are separated from Him eternally. But that is why Jesus died for us—to pay the penalty for our sins—to reunite us with God.

Growing up in church, I had heard—I believed in God. I believed Jesus was the Son of God and I knew that He died for my sins, but I never knew that there was a choice I needed to make or that I was created to be in a personal, intimate relationship with Him. When this man told me this, I knew what he was telling me was truer than anything I had ever heard in my life, but I didn’t want to just take his word for it.

I asked him to show me in the Bible. He showed me a lot of different passages, but the verse that stood out to me the most was John 14:6. That is where Jesus says, “I am the Way and the Truth and the Life. No one comes to the Father but by Me.” I just knew that was exactly what I needed to know.

I knew that the Father was in heaven—I knew that is where I wanted to go, but I knew that I had never made a personal decision to accept Jesus into my heart or my life or become a Christian. I didn’t have a relationship with Him; so that night, sitting on the floor of my parents’ dining room, I accepted Him into my heart and into my life.

From that moment forward, I know that God was with me and the Holy Spirit was inside of me, working in many ways. He brought all these different people into my life. I ended up having a Christian counselor when I wasn’t even seeking a Christian counselor. She spoke a lot of truth into my life.

I went to a community college at the time. I met this woman who just shined with more love and light and joy than anyone I had ever met in my life. I remember going back from meeting her one day and saying, “God, I want to know You the way that lady knows You.”

What I felt Him telling me was, “Kristen, you have to let me be your best friend. You have to start going to Me for everything.” I was still going to my friends and my doctors and my parents before Him; but He was the One who created me. He was the One who knew me. He was the One who made me. He knew my problems more than I did or anyone else did, and He knew the answers more than anyone else did.

So I started going to Him before everyone else. I started centering my life around Him, putting Him first. I got involved in a really good Christian church where I started to grow spiritually. The closer I got with Him, the more I began to experience the joy and peace and contentment—just a love for life—like I never had before.

Bob: What is the timeframe from what we are talking about—it was January when you attempted suicide.

Kristen: Then it was March when I became a Christian—March of 2000. I still struggled with suicidal thoughts and depression for about three years. It was March 2003 when I started going to that church. So my relationship with Him was very immature, but I was growing in that time.

I think one of the biggest reasons I struggled in those three years with depression after my attempt is because I didn’t know how important it was to be part of a Bible-believing, Gospel-preaching church—be a part of the body of Christ. I didn’t know how much having Christian friends would help me.

I also didn’t know how real Satan was and that it was his desire to destroy me and mess with my life. I didn’t realize how important it was for me to read the Bible every single day. I wasn’t practicing a lot of things that I know would have been helpful for me in growing in my relationship with God.

Dennis: I find it interesting that God would use a woman who came up to you and who told you that you were going to hell. Looking back on that, as offensive as that sounds here in this studio today, what are your thoughts about what that woman did and how God used that in your life?

Kristen: It was very difficult at the time, but I am very grateful that she was that bold at the time because it helped me see my need for Him. It helped me think about where I would have gone eternally. If I died, I never thought about it more than at that time in my life.

Dennis: Was she loving as she said it, or was she condemning as she said it?

Kristen: She was just very frank.

Bob: You think of saying that to somebody who is three months’ out of the hospital in a wheelchair, no legs; and just walking up and saying, “You know, it is a good thing you lived; because if had died, you would have gone to hell.” It is bold. Some people would say it is insensitive to say that; but you are sitting here going, “No. It was sensitive to the real needs in my life.”

Kristen: I needed to hear it. She could have said those words in a nicer way, but it was what I needed to hear—regardless.

Bob: Kristen, the three years from when you trusted Christ in your parents’ living room. I have to ask you about that. Were your parents sitting there as this seminary student is unveiling the gospel for you?

Kristen: Yes.

Bob: What are they thinking?

Kristen: I have no idea what they were thinking. I think they were all just focused on me. They weren’t thinking for themselves; they were just thinking...

Bob: ...maybe this will help Kristen.

Kristen: Right. Exactly.

Bob: In their presence, did you pray that night?

Kristen: It was after the couple left and after my parents were doing their own thing. They didn’t know that I was accepting Christ as I sat on the floor that night.

Bob: Did you say the next day, “Mom, Dad, I prayed last night to become a Christian”?

Kristen: I didn’t tell them, but I told my best friend.

Dennis: But you did tell somebody.

Kristen: Yes.

Bob: The next three years you continued to battle, primarily because you didn’t get plugged in. Is that right?

Kristen: Yes; definitely. I actually tried going to a number of churches, but they weren’t wheel-chair accessible. I never felt like I fit in there for one reason or another, but I visited this church that I ended up going to once before I ended up going back. I knew that God wanted me to go there. It was a whole year in between when I went back. I knew that is where He wanted me to be finally.

Dennis: Kristen, in listening to your story—the older I get, the more aware I am of how many people are hurting. You have already said how many people have read your book and written you and have given it to other people because there are a lot of hopeless people—a lot of people who need to have hope born in their hearts, like He was born in your heart.

I think what I would like you to do is just to speak directly to that person who is listening who is pretty hopeless, who needs Christ. Maybe he or she has been going to church; maybe they haven’t. Maybe they stumbled onto this broadcast, but they need to find the One who can redeem them from hell and from their sins and have hope born in their lives.

Kristen: If you are struggling with pain in your life, or with suicidal thoughts, or with depression, I want you to know that there is a reason you are here. God created you for a purpose. No matter what you are going through, it is temporary. You are not alone.

He has tremendous plans for you. There is hope in Christ that surpasses anything in this world. He has so much hope for us. He has so many plans for us—every single one of us. Nobody is an accident, including you. There is a reason you are here. I just want to encourage you to, “Hold on. Seek God with all of your heart.” I know you will find Him. He will bring you out of the depths of despair like He has me.

Dennis: I just want to re-read that passage that was shared with you by that young man who was going through seminary, John14:6: “Jesus said to him, ‘I am the Way, and the Truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.’”

Jesus Christ is the person at the center of Christianity. He is the One who makes it possible for us to have a relationship with God. He will meet you at your point of despair. There is nothing you are facing, nothing you are going through, that is bigger than the God Who loves you.

My encouragement to that listener is to cry out to God in prayer—a simple prayer. “Lord, be merciful to me, a sinner. I want to know Jesus Christ as my Lord, Master, and Savior.” If you do that, I have it on the authority of this book, the Bible, that He will meet you there; and He will save you from your disappointments, your sin—how you have offended God—and bring you into a right relationship with God.

Bob: There are probably some things you need to do—some next steps you need to take, as Kristen has talked about here today, so that you don’t find yourself spiritually stagnant. Many of those steps are outlined in a book we would like to send you at no cost—a book called Pursuing God. This is a book we send out to those who are considering what it means to have a relationship with Jesus Christ.

Whether you have been in church throughout your life or not, if the spiritual lights are just starting to come on in your life, call us at 1-800-FLTODAY and let us send you a copy of the book Pursuing God by Jim Elliff. It is our gift to you; and it is our hope that God will use this book in a powerful way to bring you into a relationship with Jesus and to help you walk in that relationship as His child, as you put your trust in Him. You can request a copy of the book by calling 1-800-FLTODAY; that is 1-800-358-6329.

Let me also encourage you to go to our website FamilyLifeToday.com. You can get information there about Kristen Anderson’s book Life in Spite of Me—extraordinary hope after a fatal choice. There are also other books we have listed on the website that talk about the issue of depression and suicide. Again, go to FamilyLifeToday.com for more information about the resources we have available. You can order online if you would like; or again, you can call 1-800-FL-TODAY to request the resources you have heard us talk about today.

Let me also mention that today and tomorrow are the last two days you have an opportunity to sign up and join us on the FamilyLife Love Like You Mean It cruise which we are going to be taking in February of 2011, actually Valentine’s week, February 14-18. Dennis and Barbara Rainey are going to be on the cruise, along with Crawford and Karen Loritts, Kirk Cameron is going to be there, Shaunti Feldhahn is going to be there. We are going to have music from Selah and Point of Grace and Big Daddy Weave.

It is going to be a great week for couples. The FamilyLife Love Like You Mean It cruise. The ship is almost full. We have a limited number of cabins still available. If you sign up by tomorrow, you can save 50 percent on your stateroom. It is a buy one; get one free arrangement for the cruise. All you have to do to take advantage of the special for FamilyLife Today listeners is type my name—type “BOB”—in the promo code box on the online registration form. We hope you will get more information by going on FamilyLifeToday.com. Click on the Love Like You Mean It cruise link, and we hope you will sign up and join us. We look forward to seeing you as we set sail next February on Valentine’s Day.

Let me also encourage you to be back here tomorrow. Kristen Anderson is going to join us again, and we are going to talk more about her life following her attempted suicide and about the hope that she has found. I hope you can tune in for that.

I want to thank our engineer today Keith Lynch and our entire broadcast production team on behalf of our host Dennis Rainey; I’m Bob Lepine. We will see you back tomorrow for another edition of FamilyLife Today.

FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock Arkansas

Help for today. Hope for tomorrow.

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Life in Spite of Me

Day 3 of 3

Guest: Kristen Jane Anderson

From the Series: And Then God...

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Bob: At age 17, Kristen Jane Anderson survived a suicide attempt. Today, more than ten years later, she has a powerful message for those who find themselves in despair.

Kristen: If you’re struggling with pain in your life or with suicidal thoughts or with depression, I want you to know that there’s a reason you are here, that God created you for a purpose. No matter what you’re going through, it’s temporary. You’re not alone.

He has tremendous plans for us, every single one of us. Nobody is an accident including you. There is a reason you’re here. So, I just want to encourage you to hold on, to seek God with all of your heart, and I know that you will find Him. He will bring you out of the depths of despair like he has me.

Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Friday, September 10th. Our host is the President of FamilyLife, Dennis Rainey and I'm Bob Lepine. Kristen Anderson joins us today to give a reason for the hope that is within her.

And welcome to FamilyLife Today, thanks for joining us. We’ve been hearing a remarkable story of God’s redeeming work in the heart and the life of a young woman this week. A young woman who attempted suicide by laying across railroad tracks, and miraculously, God spared her life.

But, I’m just thinking, here we are at a point in the unfolding of this story where all of a sudden, life has meaning and purpose, joy and hope. There’s just this one bummer, and that is, “I don’t have legs anymore.” I don’t mean to sound crass or trivial about it but…

Dennis: It’s the result of what took place.

Bob: Here is hope re-dawning but, I’m in a wheelchair with no legs. Life is going to be very different from here on out because of a decision I made—an impulsive decision—trying to end my own life.

Dennis: Well, that young lady joins us again on FamilyLife Today; she’s the author of the book, Life in Spite Of Me. Kristen Jane Anderson joins us again on FamilyLife Today, Kristen welcome back. I just have to tell you, I really appreciate your willingness to go back and revisit some very painful moments both emotionally and physically as you shared about that attempt at suicide.

Kristen: Thank you; I really appreciate you having me on.

Dennis: I wanted to ask you, just as you have processed the loss of your legs like Bob is talking about here, people who lose a limb experience what’s called “phantom pain”?

Kristen: Yes.

Dennis: Or they have the feeling, the phantom is as though their legs are still there?

Kristen: Right.

Dennis: Do you experience that?

Kristen: Yes. I always feel like my legs are still there. It’s really interesting. It’s not like they feel normal or anything. But it feels like they’re still there. It’s very interesting.

Bob: Are there times you’ll wake up in the middle of the night and without stopping to think about it, think “I’ll just swing my legs out and get up out of bed”?

Kristen: Not as often as I used to. In the beginning I used to always be really surprised by my wheelchair next to my bed. But now I’m pretty used to it. Every once in a while I’ll think, “I want to go for a run.” Or something like that, that I can’t do any more.

Bob: The thing that I keep thinking about here is, at a point when your life experienced a radical transformation, you trusted Christ, you began to understand what it means to follow Him and to give your life to Him, and you’re a new creation in Christ. The thing is, the old you had legs, the new you doesn’t.

Kristen: Right.

Bob: How do you process that?

Kristen: The thing that helped me the most was learning that I was whole in Christ, whether or not I had legs isn’t what made me whole. He was more than enough for all of me, I didn’t need anything more. The more that I trusted Him, and I put my faith in Him, the more I just felt whole. I realized I was going to fine without my legs. I was going to be fine as long as I had Him. I didn’t need them as much as I needed Him.

Dennis: You said before we came into the studio, that you’ve been working with—is it a physician who creates prosthetics?

Kristen: Yes, he’s called a prosthetist.

Dennis: You’ve been working with him for four years?

Kristen: Longer actually.

Dennis: Actually longer than that? Yet, it’s interesting to see your demeanor. You have some opinions about why they have not been able to fit you with legs at this point.

Kristen: Yes. I’m a difficult case to fit. But I think that everything happens for a reason, and I think there’s a reason I’m not walking now. As I’ve tried to think through that, pray through that and see what the reasons might be, I feel like, it’s just not God’s time yet. I think that He has used my story and me in a way that he had planned to use it with me in my wheelchair.

It has also taught me a tremendous amount of patience, and it has made me a lot more humble for me to be in my wheelchair.

Dennis: I’m listening to you say that, and I’m flashing back to the story of January 2nd, 2000, when you were draped across the railroad tracks and described something supernaturally, almost pushing you down as the train ran over you. Even though your legs were severed, you lost them. The condition of the young lady who had laid down on that track was without hope.

Kristen: Right.

Dennis: … had no purpose.

Kristen: Right

Dennis: The woman today who has no legs has a mission. She’s on a mission. You’re smiling. There are a lot of people who would say “I don’t get that. How can you smile about that? Do you really believe that God has a purpose? Even in a self-described act of selfishness in trying to take your own life?”

Kristen: Only God can give me this kind of joy. Only knowing Him and having a relationship with Him. Nothing compares to knowing Him. I am on a mission now. You’re right. Because I want people to know that no matter what pain they’re going through, no matter what they’re feeling, no matter what they have in their past, or they’re doing now, God can help them.

He can heal that pain, he can bring them out of their situations and their disappointments and he can make them whole again. He can give them a purpose. He has a purpose for them. When He made them, when He created them he had a plan for their lives.

Bob: But, here’s my question for you. The joy that you’re talking about, the hope the purpose, do you have that because you know you’re supposed to, because you’re a Christian—do you know what I’m saying? It’s like…

Dennis: And she goes to Moody Bible Institute…

Bob: I mean, I go to church and they’ve been telling me, “You find your joy and your hope in Christ so I guess I need to, and I’m on a mission so I need to tell people that I have hope and joy…”

Dennis: I wish people could see her face right now.

Bob: “…because that’s my job now.”

Kristen: No, that’s not me at all. I will tell you what I think no matter what. That’s just actually how I feel. I tried to find joy in every other area of my life, and nothing else brought me joy. Seeing myself through His eyes, and seeing the world through His eyes and accepting Him into my life, and having Him at the center of things just make everything work a lot differently; it changes everything for me.

So, I’m excited because I know Him. I’m happy because I know that I’m exactly where I need to be. I have joy because He has forgiven me, because He gave me a second chance over and over and over again.

Bob: So you’ve got more joy with no legs than you ever had when you had your legs.

Kristen: Undoubtedly. I wouldn’t trade what’s happened to me, what I’ve learned to have them back.

Dennis: As you talk to young people around the country, are you seeing a need for them to find the same spiritual legs that you have found.

Kristen: Yes. Every time I share my story with young people or older people. They all come up to me—almost every single one of them—and tell me that they struggled with suicidal thoughts and depression at one time, they are now struggling or they know somebody who has. So, they want to know how to help them or they want to know how they can be helped.

Suicide and depression is an epidemic in our culture. Eight out of ten people think about suicide and one out of ten try. It’s the third cause of death of those between the ages of 15 and 24. I just want to make any difference that I can in the lives of those people, and those statistics. I know that they don’t have to choose suicide as the answer, it’s not an answer. It’s not a choice to even consider. I want people to realize that there is another way, there is a much better way, it is the only way and that is through Jesus Christ.

Bob: One of the ways in which you’ve seen God demonstrate what He’s doing in your life happened when you were baptized right?

Kristen: Yes. When I was baptized, I shared my story for the first time, and it really helped me realize His faithfulness through all of it. He did all of these little things to bring me into a relationship with Him.

Dennis: I want to just stop you for a second. I want to put a timeline on this. Your accident happened January 2, 2000. You began a relationship with Christ in March, right? How long before you were baptized?

Kristen: It was three years later.

Dennis: So you’d had some time to truly think about this decision you’d made, before you told your story publicly.

Kristen: Right. I didn’t even know that people were encouraged to get baptized after they accepted Christ until I started going to a church where I learned that. So, everything—you couldn’t have really seen the fruit in my life until I really started growing spiritually once I got to that church. But when I shared my story, at my baptism that day, I cried like crazy.

At the end of it, they gave an invitation for people who had not accepted Christ yet, who wanted a relationship with Him, who wanted a new life with Him, and wanted to know they would go to Heaven. My mom raised her hand that day at my baptism. That was just the beginning of God bringing every single one of us in my family to Him. It was an incredible time.

Bob: Did you know that? Did you see her out in the congregation raising her hand?

Kristen: I saw her. I was actually two people down from her at that time. It was at the end of the service.

Bob: What did you think?

Kristen: I just remember thinking, “Thank you God, thank you God” just giving Him praise. I saw Him doing amazing things in my family. I knew that the closer we all were with Him, the better our family life would be, and the more healthy we would be. I just knew the difference it would make in our hearts and in our lives. I wanted her to forgive herself.

Dennis: Oh, yes.

Kristen: She blamed herself for what I did and I knew it wasn’t her fault. I knew it wasn’t my dad’s fault. It wasn’t anyone’s fault but my own. I took full responsibility for it and I knew that if she could feel Christ’s forgiveness, she could begin to forgive herself.

Bob: Was she the first person in your family to come to faith?

Kristen: Yes.

Bob: Who was next?

Kristen: Then it was my dad, then it was my brother.

Dennis: Before you go on to that. Your dad had a special nickname for you.

Kristen: Yeah—How do you know this?

Bob: We do our research on stuff like this.

Dennis: What was that nickname?

Kristen: He called me “Speedy Two-Shoes.”

Dennis: Why did he say that?

Kristen: Because I would run around the house and up and down the stairs and everything, like crazy.

Dennis: But he came to faith in Christ, too?

Kristen: Yes.

Dennis: Was that dramatic for him to place his faith in Christ?

Kristen: It has been incredible. He is one of the largest encouragements in my life now. He loves Christian radio, he listens to radio all the time, he reads his Bible all the time, he’s always speaking…

Bob: Can we say hi to him right now? We just want to say hi to your dad if he’s listening to the radio.

Kristen: He’s just an incredible blessing. I cannot believe—he always says that he praises God for what He’s done in my life. He’s just so grateful for the way He turned my life around, for the way Jesus turned my life around and for the ways he is using me now.

Bob: What was the turning point for him?

Kristen: In Christian radio actually. He listened to Moody radio a lot and that was the biggest thing for him. He started reading his Bible. When I started going to church, I brought my mom with me, and she brought my dad with her. That’s when it all happened. Then, he brought my brother to a men’s conference and that’s when my brother became a Christian.

Bob: Wow.

Dennis: I’m just thinking, Bob. You think back to the trauma of what Kristen has been through, the lack of hope that you had as a young person. If somehow we could have come to you and told you what was going to occur, would you have believed it as a 15, 16, 17 year old young lady? Would you have believed your family would be transformed by Jesus Christ?

Kristen: No. I wouldn’t have believed it.

Dennis: How are they more of a family today than they were back then?

Kristen: We’re more of a family because we talk about things now. We talk about real life. We talk about what’s hurting us, what helps us, what God is doing in our hearts and in our lives. We pray together and we support each other and we encourage each other. We did some of that before, but it was a lot more surface level, there were a lot more walls. Now we are just completely real with each other, and we have Jesus at the center. He just makes it all work in a completely different way.

Dennis: And it works perfectly. There is never any conflict or any disappointment or…

Kristen: No. It doesn’t work—nothing is perfect. But, it is completely different. It is a lot easier now. We know from scripture a much better way to handle problems and we know that God is with us. We know He’s going to carry us through whatever we face. We know that he commands us to forgive one another, so we do that. We mean it, and we love each other more.

Bob: You shared your story publically for the first time at your baptism. But then people started saying, would you come share your story with this group or with that group. Did that take you by surprise? Were you a little uncomfortable with that at first?

Kristen: It was very surprising for me. I wasn’t expecting that at all. But, because they heard me share my story at my baptism, they knew my story and they knew that it might help some young people. That’s why I decided to share it for the first time after my baptism. It was at a high school youth group in my church. I really just did it because I wanted them to learn from my mistakes, and didn’t want them to have to have anything like that happen to them before they had a real growing relationship with Christ. I just wanted to help them in any way that I could help them grow.

So, I shared my story and after I shared my story, almost all of them came up to me and told me that they were struggling. They were reaching out for help because they didn’t know how they could face another day or another year. They were all in different situations. I wanted to help them all, but I couldn’t do that. But, I began helping as many kids as I could. I began speaking at other churches and youth events where I was invited to speak.

Bob: You began helping them how? What were you doing?

Kristen: I was just talking with them, I was just being there for them. I was just loving them. They just needed somebody who understood and who could give them, godly advice. So I tried to do that as best as I could as I was growing spiritually.

Bob: We don’t realize how huge that is in the life of a teenager, for somebody to come along and say, “I’ll listen, I’ll talk. Just share whatever you want to share.”

Dennis: Yes, but what really gave you the credibility, is that you were willing to be authentic. I mean, you are a living testimony, a living illustration…

Kristen: I didn’t pretend like my life was perfect, or like it ever was. I told them exactly what it was, and what it is now.

Dennis: If I was a parent, listening to you right now, I think I might be a little afraid. No, seriously, for young people today growing up in this culture, why do you think young people today seem to be more susceptible to what you’re calling “hopelessness and suicide, and despair”?

Kristen: I think they’re more impressionable. I think they think more about what other people think about them. They are not content with who they are. They have all the pressures of media to look this way, or get this car or whatever it is. They don’t think they are ever good enough. They don’t think they’ll ever amount to anything. They think that they aren’t beautiful, they think that they’re not special, they don’t know that God made them, created them for a purpose or for a reason.

I think that, I would be scared as a parent for those reasons too. I think that the best thing that parents can do, though is to be authentic with their kids just like they want their youth leaders to. They need to be the first encouragement in their lives after Christ. Not the youth pastor, not the youth leaders, they need to be involved, they need to ask the questions, they need to have the real vulnerable talks, and they need to be open to whatever they are saying, whatever they’re going through, and whatever their friends are going through. They need to keep the lines of communication open, I guess, because that was one of the problems for me. I didn’t feel like my mom would understand. I thought she would think badly of me, or of my friends.

Bob: You started, not only speaking at youth group or some places around town, but now you are getting invitations to travel and speak. And you spoke at the chapel at Moody Bible Institute. You spoke in Christian colleges, I mean it started to just snowball for you.

Kristen: Yes, I was getting more requests to share my story specifically, than I could even go. I couldn’t go all the places I was being invited.

Bob: Then at one point, you got a call to come share your story in an unusual setting.

Kristen: Yes, I got a call to share my story on Oprah, and that was in 2006.

Dennis: There was only one condition that you gave the producers of Oprah, it was the condition that you would appear on the program.

Kristen: I told them that I would be on the show if they would let me share Jesus and my faith, because, that was the biggest part of my story. That was my story, I couldn’t change it.

Dennis: You didn’t have anything to say if you couldn’t talk about Him.

Kristen: Exactly.

Dennis: I want to go to a bigger issue of your future. I have a feeling there is a listener or two wondering, “I wonder what her dreams are for her life.” Tell us what you’d like to do, and be long haul. You want to be a wife? A mom? Huh?

Kristen: I think that God created me to be a wife and a mother more than anything else. But I also think that He made me to help bring other people into a closer relationship with Him. So, that is my main focus, my main drive right now before I get married and have children.

Dennis: But if you meet the right guy, you are beaming right now. If you meet the right guy, you’re going to go to a Weekend to Remember® marriage getaway. You’re going to go through the pre-married section.

Kristen: Yes.

Dennis: You already had some coaching on this. And she’s grinning. We’ll stop right there, Bob.

Bob: I think that’s wise of you to do.

Dennis: I think it is.

Bob: Yes.

Dennis: Well, I just want you to know, I really admire you and your courage. I think it could have been very easy for a young lady in a hospital bed, waking on January 3, 2000, to have just, given up, and maybe gone ahead and died. But somehow God pursued you and gave you a flicker of hope. You didn’t give into hopelessness but took something that was really a wrong choice, a bad choice at the time, and you turned to Him.

I’m just thrilled to hear your story of redemption, Kristen, and, to hear of God’s work in your life. I hope you’ll not only share Jesus Christ with the hundreds of thousands of folks who’ll be listening to FamilyLife Today, but also millions through your book, and other speaking engagements that God gives you. Thanks for being on our broadcast.

Kristen: Thank you so much. It was a pleasure to meet both of you.

Bob: I have to tell you, I think there are a lot of people who have heard you share your story this week who are thinking, “Boy, I’d love to read her story. But more than that, I know someone who could really benefit from reading Kristen’s story.” The book you’ve written is called Life in Spite of Me, we’ve got it in our FamilyLife Today Resource Center.

Let me encourage you to go online at FamilyLifeToday.com for more information on how to order a copy of Kristen’s book. We also have other resources on depression and on suicide. You can find those when you go to our website, FamilyLifeToday.com or if you need help, if you’re looking for something specific, call 1-800-FL-TODAY and talk to someone on our team about what resources we might have available, either online or something we can send out to you.

Again, the toll free number 1-800-358-6329. That’s 1-800 F as in “family” L as in “life” and then the word TODAY. Or go online at FamilyLifeToday.com.

Now, I need to remind listeners, today is the last day that you can sign up for our FamilyLife Love Like You Mean It Cruise, that is going to be sailing from south Florida on Valentine’s Day, February 14th, 2011. Dennis and Barbara Rainey are going to be on board the ship, along with Crawford and Karen Loritts, Kirk Cameron, Shaunti Feldhahn, Mary Ann and I are going to be there as well. Music from Point of Grace and Selah, and Big Daddy Weave. It’s going to be a great week for couples and we hope you can come along.

I say today’s the last day to sign up, actually you can sign up after today, but two things are happening. First of all, the ship is starting to fill up, and secondly, today is the last day for the buy-one-get-one-free half price offer that we’re making to FamilyLife Today listeners.

If you sign up today, and you type my name, type “BOB” where you see the promo code box on the online form, you will save 50 percent on your stateroom costs. So, again get more information by going online at FamilyLifeToday.com, click the link to the Love Like You Mean It cruise, and get signed up today. Then we’ll see you Valentine’s Day as we set sail from south Florida.

And with that we’ve got to wrap things up for today. I hope you have a great weekend. I hope you and your family are able to worship together this weekend. I hope you can join us back on Monday. Paul Miller is going to be here to help us unravel the mystery of prayer, and talk about what we can do to have a richer, deeper, prayer life. We’ll talk about that Monday, I hope you can be with us.

I want to thank our engineer today Keith Lynch and our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I’m Bob Lepine. We will see you Monday for another edition of FamilyLife Today.

FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas.

Help for today. Hope for tomorrow.

© Copyright 2010

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Aftershock: Hope, Help, Healing in the Wake of Suicide

Day 1 of 3

Guest: David Cox

From the Series: A Survivor's Look at Suicide

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Bob: There is a memory from childhood that David Cox will never lose.

David: My dad got in his car and as he was driving away, I hollered over the noise of the lawnmower, "Dad, where are you going?" Expecting his familiar reply, "Going crazy, want to come along?" And, very oddly, he said, "I have somewhere I have to go." And that was the first time I realized something was not quite right. And as he drove just a very small distance, he stopped the car and turned and looked back at me one last time, almost as if a man who is drowning and is reaching out for someone to rescue him. And that was the last time I ever saw my father alive.

Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Wednesday, July 7th. Our host is the president of FamilyLife, Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine. How do you help a family member deal with the reality of suicide? We'll talk about it today. Stay with us.

And welcome to FamilyLife Today, thanks for joining us. I remember two occasions when I was in high school, Dennis, where I was confronted with the reality of what we're going to be talking about today. There was a classmate in my high school. He was in the same grade I was in, and I don't know the details, don't know what surrounded it, but I remember the news that came to us that our classmate had taken his life; he had committed suicide.

And then I had a friend who -- she actually lived three doors down, and she was dating a friend of mine. Again, I don't remember how I got the news, but one day I learned that he father had gone into the basement of their home and had taken his own life. And when you're confronted with the reality of suicide, you really don't know how to respond, how to react. You don't know how to help folks. It's a troubling, confusing time for those of us who are on the outside, and it must be incredibly confusing and painful for those who are right in the midst of it.

Dennis: Yes, in fact, you and I received an e-mail from a listener who, just a couple of weeks ago, wrote us, and she writes, "Good morning. Our family has suffered a tragic loss recently. My 15-year-old son has taken his life just a few days ago. May I please ask for your prayers for my family? I'm a single mom of two other teens as well. Do you have any other resources of godly guidance that I might read to help us through this process?" She goes on and say, "My son was depressed, and we were actively participating in community resources for his help and treatments. It seemed as though we were turning a corner, and he was getting better. I admit that I do not understand this, and I am at a loss. Thank you very much."

You know, unfortunately, Bob, I think by the time you live to be 30 or 40, you're going to be touched by the subject of suicide today, perhaps not through your own family, but through a friend or an acquaintance at work or in the community. This is a growing problem in our culture, and we decided to do some research as to who had really written on this subject and who could help us create some tools and resources for you, as a listener, to be able to reach out to people who perhaps are survivors of a suicide, perhaps your mom or dad committed suicide when you were a child, or you know of someone who has lost a family member or a friend due to suicide. And we ran across a book called "Aftershock," and it's co-authored by Candy Arrington and Dr. David Cox, and David joins us here on the broadcast. David, welcome to FamilyLife Today.

David: Thank you, Dennis. It's a pleasure to be here.

Dennis: David is a marriage and family counselor in Spartanburg, South Carolina. He is a graduate of Wofford College, and has his MDiv, along with his Doctorate of Minister degrees from Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary in Wake Forest, North Carolina, and you actually -- David, you did your study when you did your doctoral work in this area of suicide prevention, right?

David: Yes, I did, Dennis. My doctoral thesis was more intervention. It was counseling and suicide intervention, hoping to sort of meet the problem on the front end and see if we could make a difference in folks as they are depressed and becoming suicidal. The book, "Aftershock: Help, Hope, and Healing in the Wake of Suicide," is really more of a survivor's book, because we really saw that there was a much greater need for something like this, sadly, after folks have been through it.

Bob: Your interest in this subject was not purely clinical, but it's because you are, yourself, a survivor of suicide.

David: I am, Bob, and by "survivor of suicide" we mean a surviving loved one, family member or friend, after someone has completed suicide. It does not necessarily refer to someone who has survived a suicide attempt on their own.

Bob: In your case, your father committed suicide when you were nine years old. Were you aware, prior to his suicide, that there were things in his life that could be leading him in that direction?

David: None whatsoever, and not just because I was nine years old, but I think our entire family was oblivious to the trouble that he was in emotionally. Now, of course, looking back, we could see that he had changed jobs three times in a two-year period; we had a home in Richmond, Virginia, which would not sell; my mother had recently gone through breast cancer surgery; my father had mounting debt; my two sisters were in college at the time; he was very depressed. He had had some medical problems, and so he very much fit the profile for someone who is suicidal. But, as many families are -- most families are -- we were completely caught offguard by his suicide.

Dennis: You know, as a nine-year-old boy, your world is that of a boy, not thinking about how is Dad doing, how is Mom doing? And yet one day you were mowing the lawn, and you looked up, and your dad got in his 1966 Mustang, and you asked him where he was going. What did he say?

David: Well, mowing the lawn was a big deal for me when I was nine years old. I don't enjoy it now, but I was excited to get to do that, and my dad got in his car, and as he was driving away, I hollered over the noise of the lawnmower, "Dad, where are you going," expecting his familiar reply, "Going crazy, want to come along?" And very oddly he said, "I have somewhere I have to go." And that was the first time I realized something was not quite right. And as he drove just a very small distance from the house, he stopped the car and turned and looked back at me one last time, and that was the last time I ever saw my father alive.

Dennis: You wrote in your book that the look your father gave you when he looked back will forever trouble you. Describe what you saw in your dad's face when he looked back at you.

David: I saw a cry for help, almost as if a man who is drowning and is reaching out for someone to rescue him. And I'm sure, at that point, it would have taken a miraculous intervention to have turned him around from what he had probably been planning for months at that time. And that always haunted me, Dennis, because I felt, as being the last person to ever see my father alive, the last family member, that somehow it had been my responsibility to have stopped him, and that I had failed him and that I failed my family by not doing so.

Bob: At the time you were aware that he had given you an unusual response, but you probably just thought, "That's odd," and went back to cutting the grass, right?

David: That's exactly it.

Bob: So when did you realize that his look meant something more?

David: My mother and sister came home that afternoon and apparently discovered his suicide note in the house, and they whisked me off to some neighbors across the street. I spent the night with those neighbors. I knew that we were in some sort of trouble, because there were many cars in front of our home; there were what I recognized to be police cars at our home; and early the next morning I ran to my home to try to get in. I was assuming that my mother might be in some sort of danger. It never dawned on me that my father might have met with death. And after a very difficult time of getting in the home, I saw her and realized that she was okay, and I thought our family was okay, and then I was told the news that my father had died.

Bob: How were you told that?

David: I was initially told by my Sunday School teacher. My mother was so emotionally upset that she could not break the news that my father had died. It was not until several days later, actually right before his funeral, that my mom sat me down on the end of her bed and told me, I'm sure, what was the most difficult news she ever had to break in her life -- that my father had died by killing himself with his handgun that was his souvenir from World War II that he had actually -- was his service weapon that he had had in the Army.

Bob: He had driven off to an isolated location somewhere?

David: Something called "The Horse Show Arena," in Memphis, Tennessee, where my family lived at the time, and as I traveled here to Little Rock to do this broadcast, my flight took me through Memphis, and I had a layover there of about an hour. It is the first time I had been in Memphis, Tennessee, since July of 1967.

Dennis: How does a nine-year-old boy process the news of the death of his hero …

David: … hero.

Dennis: Yeah, his father?

David: I don't remember much about that. It was a blur. I was in shock. We quickly came back to South Carolina where my mother's family lived. We had another funeral, which was very painful, again, and I think I was in limbo for several months. I don't remember much about that summer. I stayed with relatives back in Spartanburg as my mother and sister returned to Memphis to sell the home and tie up loose ends. It really wasn't until I started school in the fourth grade, when a teacher asked me, "Father's occupation," that it hit me, and I think for the first time I realized that my father was dead. And following that was a lot of anger, a lot of very self-destructive anger towards myself, towards my mom. The full brunt of this really probably didn't hit until I was 13. And, as an adolescent, missed a lot of school; was very depressed; even composed suicide notes myself, as the fallout from our family not doing a very good job of processing this.

Dennis: You know, in those that I've talked to about suicide, I've found that denial -- the denial of the event is almost standard operating procedure. It's how people cope with the pain of someone that they loved intensely rejecting that love and rejecting the family.

Bob: You're talking about somebody just kind of walling off the event and sealing it up and not going there?

Dennis: Yeah -- families completely denying that it's even a part of their ancestry. Have you found that to be true?

David: That's exactly what we did. That is my personal and professional experience. No one ever mentioned my father's suicide after the funeral. I wasn't even sure that my family that I stayed with -- my extended family -- knew how he had died, and the denial is so paralyzing, because those things are not talked about, and those things that are swept under the rug in our lives tend to fester and grow and become toxic within us, and they certainly did within me.

Dennis: And so it bubbled up through you, as a teenager, you were actually absent from school 54 days?

David: Isn't that amazing?

Dennis: In one year?

David: In one year, in the seventh grade.

Dennis: How did you pass?

David: I guess I made pretty good grades when I was here, and I wasn't much of a behavior problem.

Dennis: But what was taking place there? Were you just acting out your anger at the loss of your father and not knowing what to do with all the emotions that it tapped into?

David: Dennis, I didn't even know what was wrong. I knew I was angry. I didn't know at what or at who. My mother was, sadly, an easy target, and much of that was vented on her. It probably was not until several years later that I even put those things together that I was angry at God. I was certainly angry at my dad. I was probably angry at myself because of his suicide.

Bob: You said that you had written suicide notes yourself during that time. What were you thinking then?

David: I believe I was thinking that it was a way out for me, too. There's sort of an "if it's good enough for Dad, it's good enough for me" mentality that affects families of suicide. That's why there are multiple suicides in families, because it sort of removes the stigma, and it becomes a coping pattern that families take on and wear.

Dennis: And that's a part of the danger of suicide, because once it enters into the family history, family members on downstream think of it as an option.

David: The sins of the fathers are visited on the children under the third and fourth generation. Let me say, Dennis, that there is no genetic predisposition to suicide like there is blond hair and blue eyes. There is a genetic predisposition to depression, but the act of suicide itself is a choice. But many families find that it runs through generations and generations, particularly of the men.

Dennis: Here is one thing you can be certain of in any family where there has been a suicide. All of those family members that have been touched by that now, all of a sudden, that is a live option in that family.

David: Yes. There is no other manner of death that immediately predisposes the survivors to the similar manner of death like suicide. If a family member is killed in a car wreck, the survivors are not statistically more at risk. If a family member dies from cancer or heart disease, it does not immediately predispose the family members to death. It does with suicide. Survivors of suicide are three to four times more likely to be depressed and suicidal themselves.

Bob: You'd think it would be the opposite.

David: You would.

Bob: You would think that the trauma of the event would be enough that you'd run so far away. What is it that draws you like a moth to the flame here?

David: I think it's a spiritual battle, in some ways. It's certainly an attack of the enemy on that family, and the Word tells us, "Be sober and vigilant, you have an adversary who is as a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour." And then I also think, because you were so devastated and depressed when you have experienced a suicide, the depression that you go through makes you more at risk for it as well. So it's a compounding effect. You feel so angry, so guilty, the questions of why and why didn't someone see this and what was so horribly wrong in this person's life that they chose this? Suicide has been best described as a permanent solution to a temporary problem. And so those people who remain, they almost feel as if their lives are shattered and at ends, and they simply can't go on, either, because they've lost one they loved.

Dennis: I've heard it described as a plague; that it feels like the most devastating thing that could ever come upon a couple who have experienced the suicide of a child or of a brother or a sister; that rejection, that finality, is a plague you can't run away from, and there's really no A+B+C=D process to be able to grapple with it. And so it presses people either toward denial or into their faith in God, in the Scriptures, to begin to try to make some sense of it, and there's where the Scriptures really offer the only hope for someone who has experienced a family member who has experienced suicide, right?

David: Absolutely. Proverbs 13:12 says "hope deferred makes the heart sick," and that is the only consistently common theme that I see in folks who are suicidal; is that they absolutely cannot believe that their situation could ever improve. In their minds, it's as bad as it can be, and they're not really choosing death as much as they are trying to escape the pain.

Dennis: All the way through high school and college, you only told two people during -- what was that like -- a 13-, 14-year time period?

David: Pretty long.

Dennis: Yeah, who did you tell and why?

David: The first person I told -- I was 16 years old, and I was at a Young Life Camp in Canada, and there was a skit where a person committed suicide, which I found to be in very poor taste, as a survivor of suicide. And one young woman got up and left the room in tears, and I asked someone, "What happened with her? What's this about?" Her brother had taken his life just days before we went on this trip, and she's the first person I ever reached out to. I felt, for the first time in my life, like I was on the other side -- not the victim and the one so much in need of help, but maybe I could help her. I had no idea what to say except, "I'm sorry."

Dennis: You know, there's a passage in 2 Corinthians, chapter 1, that says "comfort others with the comfort with which you have been comforted." And even as a 16-year-old young man, even though you hadn't talked to anybody else about it, you reached out and touched her life at that point.

David: Because I know the Holy Spirit had comforted us; had comforted me, and it was just the presence of the Lord in my life. Interestingly, my dad died on July 17th. I had made a profession of faith on June 11th and was baptized on July 2nd, just 15 days before his death. And I knew that God had put His hand on my life in a special way, and it was only that very new relationship that I had with Jesus, as a nine-year-old, that got me through that time.

Bob: Who was the second person you told?

David: The second person was a friend in seminary whose mother had attempted suicide, and she survived and, as far as I know, is still alive to this day. And he was the first person that I ever really heard talk openly about it, and I was shocked to find the ease with which he could tell his story. I used to tell people my father died from heart trouble, which, in a way, was partly true because he died of a broken heart. But this friend and someone who has been a very close friend of mine ever since, talked about his anger at his mother for doing this. How could she do this to us? He is the first person that ever expressed the abandonment and the rejection that went along with it and how personal it felt to him. So I say that I talked to him; probably, in reality, he talked to me more and helped me work through some of my pain.

Bob: You know, I think one of the clear messages in our conversation today is that if you know somebody who has experienced this, who is a survivor of suicide, you can't underestimate the level of trauma and pain that is going to leave a scar on the soul of a suicide survivor, and maybe we need to be a little more proactive in reaching out to those who are friends, neighbors, acquaintances, and invite them to open up on this subject.

Dennis: You know, I started the broadcast by reading a letter from a single-parent mom, who just had a 15-year-old son take his own life. In the coming months and in the next couple of years, she, as well as her family, are going to be faced with whether that suicide becomes the defining point in her life, or whether she uses that tragedy to press into Jesus Christ, into the Scripture, where there is that hope that you talked about, David, where someone can look at the circumstances that will never make sense; that will never repair their broken heart but will give them a perspective to be able to deal with it, because they know God can be trusted, and they know God wants to use every tragedy in our lives for His purposes and for our good.

Bob: I know our team here was pleased to have a resource to be able to send to that woman to recommend to her in the book that David has written. It's called "Aftershock," and we have it in our FamilyLife Resource Center. If you know somebody who needs a copy of the book, contact us at 1-800-FLTODAY or go online at FamilyLife.com, and we can send a copy of the book to you.

We have also created a month-long devotional that deals with the subject of tragedy or grief. It's called "Encouragement for Broken-Hearted Homes," and if you'd like to order both resources, we can add, at no additional cost, the audiocassette or the CD of our conversation this week with David Cox. The number to call is 1-800-FLTODAY or, again, you can order online at our website at FamilyLife.com. You can get more information about the resources there. Again, the toll-free number is 1-800-358-6329 or go online at FamilyLife.com.

You know, being able to provide practical, biblical resources to families that are going through this kind of a situation, these kinds of tragedies, is right at the heart of our mission to effectively develop godly families who change the world one home at a time. We want to be able to equip you with resources so that you can reach out to others and at those times when a situation like this hits home for you, when you're experiencing some kind of a tragedy, something that you don't know how to deal with, we want to be a resource available to you. We want you to be able to call us or to go online, and we want to be able to point you in the direction of biblical help.

We're a listener-supported program. In fact, more than 60 percent of our annual budget as a ministry comes from folks like you who appreciate having this kind of a resource available. This time of year is particularly challenging for ministries like ours, and if you're able to make a donation, this is a great time for us to hear from you. You can call 1-800-FLTODAY and make a donation over the phone, or you can go to our website at FamilyLife.com and donate online. If you'd like to write a check and mail it to us, just give us a call, we can pass along the mailing address or go to our website, and our mailing address is available there.

Well, tomorrow we're going to continue our conversation about this difficult subject of suicide, and we want to look specifically at the alarming rate of suicide among teenagers. I hope you can be back with us for that.

I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, and our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine. We'll see you next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today.

FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas, a ministry of Campus Crusade for Christ.

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Aftershock: Hope, Help, Healing in the Wake of Suicide

Day 2 of 3

Guest: David Cox

From the Series: Understanding the Suicidal Mind

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Bob: Suicide among teenagers is disproportionately high. As a parent, are there things to stay alert for? Here is David Cox.

David: The average teenager who becomes suicidal is above average in intelligence, is usually an over-achiever, might be a bit of a perfectionist, and, certainly, if you know what to look for, you can spot it.

The problem is that most teens talk to their friends more than they talk to mom and dad. So it might be a good friend that hears about it first.

Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Thursday, July 8th. Our host is the president of FamilyLife, Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine. We'll offer some strategies and suggestions today for parents who might think a child is suicidal.

And welcome to FamilyLife Today, thanks for joining us. I wonder if, in a Bible quiz, you could ask what do these people have in common, and if folks would know -- Abimelech, and Samson, King Saul, Saul's armor-bearer, Judas Iscariot -- what do those people have in common? And the interesting thing that ties all of them together is that all of them are biblical examples of people who took their own lives.

Dennis: And, Bob, this subject today is a growing concern for every parent and, for that matter, our entire culture, because suicide, in general, in the population as a whole, has increased about 40 percent since 1960. But among teenagers, it is today the leading cause of death. Now, think about that. For all of the concerns we have about how our kids drive and issues of drugs and alcohol, the number-one cause of death today in teenagers is suicide.

And I don't know of many parents who raise a teen all the way through the process who don't at one point or another worry a little bit about a child who withdraws or becomes a little depressed about what's going on in life. And so we looked around for a heaven-class resource for you, as a listener and your family, and found Dr. David Cox, who is a marriage and family counselor from Spartanburg, South Carolina. David, welcome back.

David: Thank you, Dennis. It's good to be here.

Dennis: And David himself is a personal survivor of suicide. His father committed suicide when he was nine years old, and David has done his postgraduate work in the area of counseling and suicide intervention and prevention, and we're grateful that, David, you've written a book called "Aftershock," along with Candy Arrington -- "Help, Hope, and Healing in the Wake of Suicide." And I have to ask you here at the start -- why does an individual take his life or her life? What's at the bottom of that?

David: I'm not sure anyone has ever really come up with an answer for that. Because for someone to be at that point, they are in such a place of despair that anyone who has never been there really cannot understand what that feels like. The common theme is hopelessness -- a sense that my problems will never get any better. Many people who are suicidal are under the myth that their family members would be better off without them. How tragic and how untrue that is.

Bob: Most of us have seen the Christmastime classic movie, "It's a Wonderful Life," where George Bailey finds himself facing financial ruin, despair, hopelessness. He comes home, the kids are driving him crazy, and he realizes that there's going to be great shame brought upon the family, and he grabs that life insurance policy and heads to the bridge and thinks, "I'd be better off dead. Everybody would be better off. It would be better for everyone else if I'd never been born."

It's interesting how that movie has become such a dominant part of the culture, even as we tend not to talk about suicide, we can all resonate, at some level, with what's going on in his soul, can't we?

David: We can, and I keep a copy of that movie on video in my desk to give out to very special people who I know that movie will speak to them in a very powerful way. I've only been able to watch that movie one time because it is so moving and so poignant.

Dennis: I've heard it said that suicide is the most selfish act a human being ever commits, and I think I would used to have said I would have subscribed to that, having been near some situations and some families where that had occurred. But then I hurt my neck one time digging some holes, and actually slipped a disk, number seven, and the pain was so intense, I could not get away from it. I would be driving down the road with my head cockeyed, trying to get it at an angle to reduce the pressure on that disk, and I began to get a little depressed, and the pain began to define my life to such a degree I went to see a physician. I said, "Cut on me. I don't care how long the sword is. Open me up and …

Bob: … take care of this thing …

Dennis: … fix the pain. And I've since reflected back on that experience. I didn't have to have surgery. I was able to rehab it and do some exercises that got me through it, but I've thought often -- you know what? When someone's in pain, and your life is defined by pain, I know it is selfish to want to be out from under that pain, but I'm not sure it's fair to characterize a man like your father who took his own life when you were nine years old as being selfish. What would you say about that?

David: I agree with that completely, Dennis. It is about self, but it's not selfish in the ways that we think of that word -- self-indulgent or me first or I want my needs met. In many ways, for the suicidal mind, it is almost an act of self-sacrifice. I believe in my father's case, he really believed that because of the magnitude of our financial problems, the only way out was his life insurance. So in his mind, as flawed as that was, and as much as we would have glad to have had him I lieu of any money that his death might have brought to the family, millions of dollars could not have replaced him.

But to think about that person being in so much pain that they see death as the only way out, is the clearest way to understand the suicidal mind.

Dennis: And you can see why this is the leading cause of death among teens. Let's pull back for a second, though, and talk to parents about how you might be able to discover a child is thinking about suicide.

Bob: Can you spot this? Can you sit down and look at a teenager and go, "I wonder if he or she is a candidate for suicide?"

David: If you know what to look for, you can spot it. The problem is that most teens talk to their friends more than they talk to Mom and Dad, so it might be a good friend that hears about it first. But, certainly, if you see marked changes in their academic performance, if they are sleeping a lot, if they talk about death, if they seem to have a preoccupation with death …

Dennis: … like writing poetry about death or letters about death, maybe the way they dress, as well.

David: The way they dress, changes in their grooming habits, personal hygiene. Our teens are under such pressure today to be perfect -- look at television and the image that is presented is that you must be perfect and beautiful and athletic and rich and smart, and the average teenager who becomes suicidal is above average in intelligence; is usually an over-achiever; might be a bit of a perfectionist and, Dennis, I believe that the growing rates of divorce in our families -- you hear statistics now of one out of every two marriages ending in divorce. Well, that means half of those homes -- half of the homes where teenagers live -- those teenagers are automatically predisposed to depression and then to suicide.

Dennis: Do you know what the statistics are about a child being at a greater risk as a result of divorce?

David: Children of divorce are two to three times more likely to be depressed and suicidal than a child who is in a home where divorce has not occurred.

Bob: Is everybody who is experiencing despair and depression a candidate for suicide?

David: I don't believe so in terms of will they actually act on it. It's refreshing for me to see the Apostle Paul mention twice in Scripture, once in Philippians, chapter 1, and another in 2 Corinthians, Chapter 1. He says, "I despaired even of life itself. I desire to depart from this life. Everybody who is honest with themselves at one time or another has thought, "If I wasn't alive tomorrow, I wouldn't have to take that test," or "I wouldn't have to face that boss," or "I wouldn't have to pay those bills," or go through this surgery or face the death of a loved one.

So everyone, I think, has thought about it, and not everyone who is in crisis is at risk for suicide, but folks who are not getting some ministry or not getting some counseling, who are not working through their feelings, who do not talk about them, people have a hard time with forgiveness. The Book of Hebrews says, "See to it that no root of bitterness spring up in you, for it will defile everything." Angry people tend to get depressed. Depression is best described as anger turned inward and unresolved depression can grow into a suicidal crisis.

Dennis: David, you write in your book that there's a difference between a suicidal gesture and a suicidal attempt.

David: The difference, Dennis, a gesture is not as serious as an attempt. A gesture may be something as insignificant as somebody saying, "I wish I were dead," or composing a suicide note. An attempt is actually some sort of behavior that injures or harms the person in some way. What you're determining there is something called "lethality." If someone has the means where they would harm themselves, as you talk about it with them, they tell you, "This is how I would do it. This is how I would attempt the suicide." Then we're looking at an impending gesture wherein what I call a "get the gun" mode. It's more important that you intervene and try to prevent the suicide and then get them some ministry and help later. But someone who just talks about being very sad -- "I really don't have much to live for," "There are times that I have thought about taking my life" -- they are gesturing at that point.

Dennis: You know, here's what happens, though, as a parent. You watch a child, and you watch them sink into this despair, and you watch them sink deeper, and you wonder what do I do? Where do I go? How do I handle this? What are the steps? What if I intervene, and it repels the child? What if I lose my relationship with the child? And I've found, in talking with parents as well as raising six children of our own -- just going through those internal battles of self-doubt, second-guessing yourself in the decision -- if a parent sees these things taking place, he or she needs to initiate, right?

David: Absolutely. The worst thing to do is nothing. Don't believe the lie, "Well, this is just a developmental situation. All teens go through this. They will grow out of it." Get the child some help. I would certainly involve their youth minister if you were involved in a church. Jesus said, "A prophet is without honor in his own land." It may bet that Mom and Dad might not be the ones to be able to talk to this teen. A physical checkup is a good idea; take him to a family physician, have them screened for depression. It might be a chemical imbalance. Teens are growing very quickly and sometimes their bodies sort of outgrow themselves at times. It might be a clinical depression that they have going on.

Dennis: In giving counsel to parents, I've encouraged parents to talk to some of their children's peers at school. In other words, the friends they hang out with, their "best" buddy or friend and ask them the question -- "Has my son or daughter ever talked about suicide?"

David: And they will know things that you don't know, and the risk that you mentioned earlier of, "Well, what if I alienate my teenager? What if I damage the relationship with them?" Dennis, I doubt that would happen, because most people, at any age who are depressed and suicidal, are so relieved that someone sees the pain and reaches out to them. It's really a comfort to that teen to know that Mom and Dad loves them enough that they are able to see between the lines and see when there's a deep problem.

Bob: I'm a parent of teenagers, and I'm thinking of those times throughout the teen years when a child is cut off from the group -- discouraged, coming home, going up to their room, shutting the door, playing guitar, not wanting to talk to anybody. They come out of the cave for a while, you know, and you say, "How are you doing?" "I'm fine."

Dennis: They growled.

Bob: As a parent, you hear a broadcast like this, and you go, "Okay, that's normal, isn't it? How do I know whether I should jump all over that and get concerned or just figure life will readjust, and I don't need to worry about it?"

David: Whatever you do, you don't need to panic. You don't need to overreact and jump all over them as if they have done something wrong. It's a great time for Mom or Dad to take that teen out for a pizza or let's go for a ride or let's go on a picnic, and subtly try to address the situation -- "You know, you seem like you've been a little sad lately. It's hard being a teenager now, isn't it? It's a lot harder than when I was your age. Is there anything you want to talk to me about? Is there anything that I could pray for you about? I want you to know that I love you, and you're important to me, and everything that's going on in your life matters."

Dennis: One of the tricky things that can occur with a person who is thinking about suicide is, as you're watching them get worse, all of a sudden, they can get better.

David: They can.

Dennis: And the reason they've gotten better is they've decided -- they have made the decision how they are going to take their life. And so in their distorted way of thinking, perhaps they're trying to make their last days with loved ones joy-filled, fun, great, and so the troubling spiral stops and, as a parent, or as a family member, you look in the person's life and think, "Oh, well" …

David: … they're better …

Dennis: … great, they're better." Then, all of a sudden, snap, and they're gone.

David: I believe that was the case in my father's life, Dennis. I mentioned that we had a home that we could not sell for 10 months, and the day that my dad killed himself, went to get the mail in the last few minutes that I saw him alive, brought the mail to him, and there was a letter there from our realtor that said, "We have a contract on the house" -- the very thing that my dad had been so heartbroken over. Previous notes had said to this realtor, "The house must be sold."

Dennis: Did your dad open that letter?

David: He opened the letter, read the letter, and within 30 minutes was dead, because I believe he had moved so far beyond the ability for us to bring him back that what would have been the best news he could have gotten, even several days before, he had resigned himself to the idea that he was going to choose suicide. And it is a troubling phenomenon that someone who is depressed may suddenly get better all of a sudden, we think the suicidal crisis is over; it may, indeed, be imminent at that point.

Bob: You told me that you started attending a Baptist church nine months before you were born.

David: Yes.

Bob: You grew up in the church, there every Sunday, your dad was a part of church life, right?

David: He was a deacon, chairman of the deacons, a Sunday School teacher, very active in our church.

Bob: You know, some Christian traditions have taught through the years that suicide is evidence of the fact that a person is not genuinely converted; that a person cannot commit suicide and be in heaven. Have you wrestled with that and what conclusions have you come to?

David: That singular point is one of the most troubling things that I deal with as a counselor, because whether it's on a suicide hotline, a survivor's group, or someone in my counseling office -- they are always struggling with what is the eternal situation? Where is my loved one? Did they lose their salvation by this single act? Or were they ever even saved?

The Word makes it very clear -- 1 John says if you have the Son, you have life. If you do not have the Son, you do not have life. Eternal life is not based on how we die but what we do with Jesus while we're alive. The idea that suicide is the unpardonable sin is rooted in some very early church history that taught that suicide was an ecclesiastical, or church, crime, and that a person that committed suicide could not be granted absolution for their sins. So a person was destined to hell not because of how they died, not because they committed suicide, because they were not absolved of their sins before they died. There is no scriptural evidence whatsoever to support the idea that if you kill yourself you go straight to hell. Interestingly, when I'm talking with someone who is suicidal, and they mention that as a possible reason for not taking their life, I wouldn't say that I lie to them at that point, but I don't try to straighten them out theologically. I say, "Well, if I were you, then I don't know that I would risk that. If you're not sure that you'd go to heaven if you took your life, then that's a good reason not to take your life."

Bob: But you're convinced in your own heart that you'll be reunited with your father at some point.

David: Absolutely. I would not want to be marshaled before my heavenly Father and have to explain why I took my life, because the Word says we are not our own. We are bought with a price. But I do believe that people who have called on the name of the Lord and are saved -- if their life ends in suicide, in no way does that mean that that person is destined to hell.

Dennis: You know, as you were talking, I couldn't help but reflect, David, upon a number of letters that we've received from both those who have attempted suicide and those who are victims, those whose parents or siblings or an aunt or an uncle or a cousin has attempted suicide and been successful. And in those situations, you're looking for hope, you're looking for a word of hope, and I just have to read, at this point, Romans, chapter 8, verse 31 and following -- "What, then, shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us? He who died did not spare His own Son but delivered Him up for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things." And then the passage concludes by saying, "But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer, through Christ who loved us, for I am convinced that neither death nor life nor angels nor principalities nor things present nor things to come nor powers nor height nor depth nor any other created thing shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord."

It may be that you're the parent who has to believe that for a teenager who is depressed. Maybe you're a family member, a survivor of suicide where a loved one has taken his or her own life. Perhaps you need to believe that for your life, and you need to embrace that as a follower of Jesus Christ. Frankly, I don't know where I would point you in terms of hope if I didn't have the Scriptures.

Bob: Mm-hm, and that's one of the reasons we're grateful that we've got a resource we can offer to folks now -- a book called "Aftershock," that David has written that provides biblical help and hope and healing in the wake of suicide. We've got copies of the book available in our FamilyLife Resource Center. You can contact us at 1-800-FLTODAY to request a copy of the book or go online at FamilyLife.com. This may be a book you'll want to purchase to give to a friend whose family has gone through this. Let me encourage you to call 1-800-FLTODAY and request a copy or, again, go online at FamilyLife.com and order a copy of the book "Aftershock."

Dennis: And, Bob, I just want to say a word to our listeners -- when you write us, we read your letters, and we listen to what you need and what you want for your marriage, your family, your loved ones, and this is the direct result of a letter that came to us from a listener who had experienced firsthand the loss of a teenage son due to suicide. And so as you, as a listener, have needs in your marriage and your family with your children, your extended family, maybe it's with a friend, write us and tell us about those needs, and we want to be here to really help you address these issues, both from a biblical perspective but also one of faith as well.

Bob: If you need our mailing address, it's available online at FamilyLife.com, or you can send us an e-mail. You can contact us by going to our website. Click where it says "Contact us," and send an e-mail and let us know what kinds of resources and programs we can produce to help you in your marriage and in your family.

Then let me also say thanks, Dennis, to the folks who support us as a ministry. You make this kind of programming and these kinds of resources possible. We've also created a devotional guide for families that are dealing with grief called "Encouragement for Broken-Hearted Homes." It's available from us here at FamilyLife, and those of you who support us as a ministry make it possible for us to reach out with these resources and provide this broadcast in cities all across the country each day.

So we appreciate your ongoing financial support. If you are able to make a donation to FamilyLife Today, it is always appreciated and right now it is -- well, it's greatly needed. This is a challenging time of year for ministries like ours, and those of you who are able to remember us in the summer with a donation, it really helps out. So if you can go online at FamilyLife.com to make a donation or call 1-800-FLTODAY we'd appreciate it. If you want to write a check and mail it to us, find our address on our website at FamilyLife.com or give us a call, and we'll pass the mailing address along to you.

Now, tomorrow we're going to look once again at this issue of suicide and talk about what we do with the reality of the aftershock of a suicide. I hope you can be back with us for that.

I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, and our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine. We'll see you back tomorrow for another edition of FamilyLife Today.

FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas, a ministry of Campus Crusade for Christ.

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Aftershock: Hope, Help, Healing in the Wake of Suicide

Day 3 of 3

Guest: David Cox

From the Series: The Survivors

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Bob: A friend, a family member, or a loved one commits suicide. Those of us who continue to live often aren't sure how to deal with the reality. Here's David Cox.

David: There are two things you don't want to do -- you don't want to just slap a Band-Aid on it and pretend like it's not there -- just cover it up and hope it will go away. The other thing is you don't so completely focus on the problem that you neglect the healing. There's a middle ground that we need to arrive at where we talk about it, we bring it out in the light, because there are many more redeeming qualities about this person than to simply focus on the way they die is to misunderstand what their life represented.

Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Friday, July 9th. Our host is the president of FamilyLife, Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine. How do you deal openly and honestly with the reality of suicide when someone you love takes his life?

And welcome to FamilyLife Today, thanks for joining us. Dennis?

Dennis: Bob, we receive a lot of letters and e-mails from our listeners, and one got my attention from a radio listener, and I'll just read it. She says, "Yesterday our pastor committed suicide. I have a two-year-old son and a six-year-old daughter. What do I tell them? Several parents are also asking me for advice. Our church is having a congregational meeting tomorrow night. Your advice and prayers would be appreciated."

You know, what she is talking about is a family that has been impacted by another person's suicide, and they have a unique set of needs to know how to process, as those who are left behind, the living, and how to coach and guide and help their children and family know how to cope in the absence of someone they loved.

Bob: That's a subject that we are dealing with this week on the program, and we have got a guest who is helping us do that from Spartanburg, South Carolina. His name is Dr. David Cox. David, welcome back to FamilyLife Today.

David: Thank you so much.

Bob: Our listeners who have heard your story know that you have had to deal personally with the impact of a successful suicide. Your father took his life when you were nine years old, and you have continued not only to look at this subject personally but also professionally. You are a counselor today, and I know that this is one issue that emerges for you over and over again as you deal with folks who are in the wake of a suicide. And you describe this interestingly in a book you've written called "Aftershock." You say that any of us who have had the experience of losing a filling know that you almost can't help but have your tongue keep going to the spot where the filling used to be, and every time you do it's painful, but there is this strange attraction there. You say for a person in the wake of a suicide, you almost find yourself going repeatedly to that same pain. It's like you can't avoid it.

David: Because there are no good answers. Why did this happen? Why did they choose this? And no matter how many times you go there, you never come away with anything that resolves the anger, the guilt, the shame, what if we had done the right thing? What if we had seen these problems coming?

Bob: Does someone who is a friend or a family member of a suicide victim -- do they just have to resign themselves to the fact that there are going to be unanswered questions for the rest of your life and kind of get past that and move on?

David: You have to move on, because you will become paralyzed and immobilized by the guilt and the questions if we're not careful. Dennis, you mentioned the church where the pastor had taken his life, and I can tell you some things they don't need to do right now -- they don't need to cover this up. They don't need to deny how this man died. We need to use The Word, it needs to be talked about, we need to talk about the wonderful things that this pastor did and the way he lived his life for the Lord, and it's a very difficult but necessary thing to talk to these children that are survivors. And when we use the term survivor of suicide, we are referring to those left behind after a successful suicide attempt.

Bob: So you're saying that in the same way that you might eulogize or memorialize a person who died in a car wreck or who died from a terminal disease -- we should have that same philosophical approach to someone who takes his own life?

David: I believe so, because there are many more redeeming qualities about this person than -- to simply focus on the way they died is to misunderstand what their life represented.

Dennis: That's a difficult assignment, though. I know of a friend who described a suicide in his family as though it was a ripple effect; that it affected and infected the entire family and continues, even to this day, to impact their family and how they're raising their children, because suicide has been introduced into the family vocabulary. They are now wondering if their elementary children are thinking about suicide; they're wondering if their teenagers are more likely to contemplate suicide. It changes the genetic structure of the family, doesn't it?

David: Well, you use the word "infect." What do you do with an infection? There are two things you don't want to do. You don't want to just slap a Band-Aid on it and pretend like it's not there -- just cover it up and hope it will go away. The other thing is, you don't so completely focus on the infection and on the problem that you neglect the healing. There's a middle ground that we need to arrive at where we talk about it. We bring it out in the light; we call it for what it is; we even call it sin, because anything that is not of faith is a sin and, certainly, that's not an act of faith. It's an act of fear, it's an act of desperation. It's someone who is obviously in a very desperate situation.

Bob: Dennis and I were away traveling a number of years ago when we got a phone call that someone on our staff had taken their own life. She had gone with a group of friends and had actually gone to see the Passion Play and, following the performance, excused herself from her group of friends; went over into the woods and took a handgun out of her purse and took her own life. And I remember the numbness that we all felt when we heard the news. And then I remember going to the funeral a few days later, and one of the great things they did at the funeral is what you talked about -- there was a video that showed her life. It showed some of the happy times of her life that all of us wanted to focus on and wanted to remember.

But I also remember thinking to myself -- I don't know what to say. I don't know what not to say. I don't know what to avoid, and I don't know how to comfort. What are some of the things we should avoid as we talk to friends or family members who have gone through a suicide in the family and what are some of the things we ought to reach out and say?

David: Let me encourage that person not to try to fix the problem. We're not the Holy Spirit, and we can't fix that hurt in that person's life, as much as we may like to.

Bob, I've heard some amazingly hurtful and even cruel things said, like "Well, you know your loved one is in hell for what they did, don't you?" Or, "Well, they're better off," or "We always knew they were a little crazy, anyway." The best thing to say to someone who has been there -- and, listen, I've been there, and I still don't know what to say -- I put my arms around that person, and I say, "I love you, and what I see you doing right now" -- let's say they lost their dad -- "Your dad would be so proud of you. Your dad loved you. Your dad was a great man." And I try to recount something good about their father that maybe they didn't even know. And I want to encourage them -- "You can get through this."

In Genesis 50:20, Joseph said, "What the enemy meant for evil, God used for good, even to the saving of many lives." And you may not be there right now, and it may be a long time before you're there. In fact, in my life, it probably took 30 years before I got to the place where I could say God has used this for good in my life. Encourage that person -- "You can heal, you will get through this. You're not alone." There are many, many survivors of suicide. Everyone's suicide touches at least six lives in an immediate way.

Dennis: And it creates a chaos that's indescribable. I mean, you're describing a sense of emotional struggle 30 years later.

David: Dennis, I still feel some pain. Pain is standard equipment in life. Misery is optional. Someone very wise told me one time, "David, when you talk about your dad, there will always be a wince of pain in your soul." And that's exactly the way it is. I don't ever want to let go of that. That's part of what I minister out of. If we lose that, then we lose that ability to comfort others in the way in which we have been comforted.

Dennis: Yeah, and the Scripture really teaches that pain is a tutor; it's a teacher. It leads us to God; it presses us against Him. And yet in a family that is surviving a suicide, the tendency of that family is to go underground -- to bury it, not talk about it, and to not discuss it among themselves. If we're speaking right now to a family member that's in a family like that, where they refuse to discuss it and denial is a part of the DNA of their family structure, what would you tell them to do? Would you say, "You know, there's an elephant in the room. We just need to talk about this elephant. We need to talk about the death of our brother, our father, and get it out in the open."

David: And in not doing so, we are making the same judgments in error that our loved one made that took him to a point of suicide.

Dennis: What do you mean by that?

David: Well, probably what he needed more than anything else was to take the mask off and say, "I'm hurting. I'm afraid. I'm angry, I'm depressed, I feel like my life is not worth living, and I'm tired of it." And had he been able to do that, he may still be here today. So when we sweep his death by suicide under the rug, and we tell people he died in an accident or, like I used to say, "He died of heart trouble," we are setting ourselves up for another suicide. It's that denial; it's the refusal to acknowledge the truth and lay it out there on the table. It perpetuates the cycle of suicide.

Bob: You said that it was the Sunday School teacher who broke the news to you of your father's death. She did not tell you at the time that it was a suicide, did she?

David: No.

Bob: You got that news just before the funeral. How were you told and did whoever did it do it right?

David: My mom told me, and she did the very best job she could. I'm the baby in the family. I felt like, because I was the last one who had seen him alive that somehow I should have been the first one that had been told. I had a lot of guilt about that later, Bob. I wondered that somehow if they had told me sooner that somehow that may have made a difference. Obviously, it would not have.

The problem in not telling children as soon as possible -- children are bright, and they pick up on things, and parents and loved ones who have said things like, "Well, you know, Dad," or Grandad, "went on a long trip," or "God needed them," or "They went to sleep." Things you do not want to tell children because they become afraid of someone going to sleep or going on a long trip, or they feel like, "Well, God need my dad more than I did." And God did not cause this event in their life, He allowed it for some reason, but He certainly did not cause that.

Dennis: You know, I picture you as a nine-year-old boy, and I think of where I was at nine. I mean -- my life was very tranquil, predictable -- I mean -- there were some bruises and scrapes on my knees but nothing like this kind of earthquake. As you would think about helping a child process the suicide of a loved one, where would you begin?

David: I would remain calm, and I would use as much age-appropriate information as possible, keeping in mind that a child's attention span is about the same length in minutes as they are old. So if we have about a six or a seven-year-old child, we don't have a long time to get this information across to them. The surviving family members must be present. If they are not the ones that can break the news -- and the hardest thing that I've ever had to do as a professional counselor is sit down with children with a mom or dad present and tell them their mom or dad is gone.

Dennis: Are you saying you told children that their parents had committed suicide?

David: I have had to do that, yes. Because the surviving parent simply couldn't do it. And so the next best thing is Mom sitting here, right by me, and we tell the child with Mom here so that the child knows Mom's okay, Mom's not going anywhere. We must tell that child, Dennis, "Your father loved you. You did not cause this -- this wasn't because you didn't pick up your toys or because you made a bad grade on a spelling test. This had nothing to do with you. You could not have made him take his life. You could not have stopped him. Your dad loved you very much, and you don't need to blame yourself for this, because children in a certain age group from about six to eight believe that they are sort of the center of the universe and that everything happens for them and because of them.

Dennis: Yeah, we see this happening all the time in a divorce.

David: Exactly.

Dennis: Children think they caused the divorce and put themselves in between their mom and dad trying to be a peacemaker and pull them together. You're saying the same thing is true in this.

David: Exactly, if the child thought, "Well, I hate my daddy for making me clean up my room, and I wish he was dead." And then that father dies by suicide, if that's not cleared up in that child's mind, he may believe that somehow there's a cause and effect there.

Dennis: If you were going to read a passage of Scripture to a child just to draw their hearts from the horizontal to the eternal, what passage would you read to a child?

David: Psalm 56:3.

Dennis: That's pretty emotional for you to even point people there.

David: Yes.

Dennis: Why?

David: Because the Sunday School teacher that told me of this scribbled that verse on a piece of paper.

Dennis: For you as a boy, and you looked it up later in your own Bible?

David: Looked it up later. I still have that piece of paper today, and Psalm 56:3 says, "When I'm afraid, I'll trust in Thee." I was so afraid. For the first time in my life, I was afraid, because my dad was gone. And also, for the first time in my life, I knew I had a heavenly Father who loved me, that I could trust in, and that I could call upon, and He became real to me for the very first time.

Dennis: You know, trying to make sense out of the death of a parent to a child -- I don't know that any human being could know where to begin. But after we've told them the truth, and after we've explained it to them, and we've read Scripture on an ongoing basis, we have to continue to engage them around this and not just assume, because they don't want to talk about it, that everything is okay.

David: Because they're checking us out, too. And if Mom or Dad's not talking about -- the family that remains isn't talking about this, then maybe that means this is not an okay subject. And I think that happened in my family. My mom and sisters were so concerned about me, they were afraid to bring it up -- "We don't want to upset David."

Bob: That has been the case for years, still today. This is not a subject that you go to with your mom, is it?

David: It's become moreso since the release of the book in October.

Dennis: Has she read the book?

David: She has.

Dennis: What did she think about the book?

David: She was very proud. I think it was hard for her to see that in print. It's a very private part of our family, so it's caused all of us to have to be more open about it, and I felt very much that I needed my mom's permission to be able to tell the story in print. But we are now having some conversation about it in some ways, maybe, for the very first time.

Dennis: You and your two sisters are now discussing it when you get together, like, for the holidays?

David: We had a book signing at a Wal-Mart near my office a few weeks ago, and my mom and both of my sisters were there, and it was, like, a family reunion in the middle of Wal-Mart as I signed books. And I just thought, "What a God moment." I mean, is this not God working all things together for good? We were able to all stand there and hug and love on people and just see how God had healed our family.

Dennis: It was not awkward?

David: It was not awkward at all. It was a little unusual, but it certainly -- it felt so good.

Bob: As you look at your mom and your sisters, do you see the scars of suicide still in their lives?

David: I see scars, but I see healed scars. I see big scars but not scars that are open and weeping and bleeding and that cause dysfunction.

Dennis: I think what God wants to do -- in fact, using the terminology of a scar, I think back to a former pastor of mine, Dan Jarrell, who now pastors a church in Anchorage, Alaska. Do you know what he calls them, David? I think you're going to like this. He calls them "holy scars." Now, think about that. They're wounds that we have had to endure, like you, since you were nine years old -- that scar. But they're scars that God has wanted to turn into a trophy. A scar that's not just a place on earth on our hearts that has been wounded, but a place where God's been at work, where He has been real, just like you reliving that moment when you read Psalm 56:3 and remembering that was really a very profound moment in your relationship with Jesus Christ. That really is a holy scar on your life.

David: It may be a scar that saved my life. You know, people have surgery -- life-saving surgery -- and sometimes they are very proud to show you the scars, and I believe there are things that maybe we need to be a little more proud of -- "Look what God's done in my life," and the physical scars on my body remind me of times when I hurt very badly, and the ability to heal and recover is just something that God has put in all of us, and there is healing for this, Dennis. It's a tough road. I think it's the worst. Personally, I don't believe there can be a more tragic or difficult way to lose a loved one. But if God is not the God of this, He's not the God of anything. If He can't be real when you bury a loved one because they chose death -- Deuteronomy 30 -- God says, "I set before you this day life or death, blessing or curse -- choose life." Just because they chose death doesn't mean I have to. I'm going to choose life.

Dennis: And to choose life, you have to courageously apply your faith, which you have done since you were nine years old and processing and dealing with this and then through the writing of this book and, David, we just appreciate you, your writing and counseling and speaking ministry. And Bob and I are really grateful for you joining us to help bring some biblical equipping around a very, very delicate issue. Thanks for being on our broadcast.

David: Thank you.

Bob: Talking about the scars -- I'm thinking about Jacob's limp after wrestling. He got a broken bone in that wrestling match and, don't you know, for the rest of his life as he limped, every step reminded him of his wrestling and God meeting him there, and God ultimately bringing him to a place of brokenness and healing, and that's really what you've described having happened in your life, and I think it happens in the lives of many who go through the valley of the shadow of death as they experience a suicide in a family or with a loved one.

Dennis: Yeah, and the key thing about Jacob's wrestling match is he lost. That's the question. Will you give up and give in to the King of kings and Lord of lords?

Bob: Fly the surrender flag, right?

Dennis: Uh-huh, that's right.

Bob: We've got copies of David's book, "Aftershock" available in our FamilyLife Resource Center, and I hope our listeners will call to get a copy either for themselves or maybe they know someone in their community; someone where suicide has become a part of the reality for their family. This would be a book that you could pass on, along with a note that you'd write to them letting them know of your care and your concern, your love, your desire to help. God might use that in a profound way to draw these people into a deeper relationship with Himself.

We have copies of the book, as I said, in our FamilyLife Resource Center. You can order online, if you'd like, at FamilyLife.com or call 1-800-FLTODAY. We also have a resource that's a 31-day devotional designed for families experiencing grief called "Encouragement for Broken-Hearted Homes," and if you order both of those resources together we can add, at no additional cost, the audiocassette or CD of our conversation with David Cox. Get all the details on these resources when you call 1-800-FLTODAY or when you go online at FamilyLife.com.

And as we wrap things up this week, let me again say thanks, Dennis, to the many folks who help support this ministry and make programs like this possible. You need to know that in the last couple of days, our conversation has been used by the Lord to minister profoundly to a lot of folks around the country for whom suicide is a present reality. It's something that has happened recently, and a lot of those folks have contacted us not only to request this resource but to request prayer, and we're glad that we can be here to assist with practical, biblical help for your family when you're going through something like this, and we want to thank the donors who make that possible -- those of you who help underwrite the expenses of this program.

You can make a donation to FamilyLife Today online at FamilyLife.com. You can call 1-800-FLTODAY to donate, or you can write a check and mail it to us, and our mailing address is available on our website or give us a call, and we'll pass the mailing address along to you.

Well, I hope you have a great weekend. I hope you and your family are able to worship together in church this weekend, and I hope you can be back with us on Monday. We're going to talk about the reality of suffering in the life of a family and, Dennis, I know you're going to share some illustrations from out of your own family as you give us some principles to keep in mind as we go through times of suffering. I want to invite you back for that. And on behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine. We'll see you back Monday for another edition of FamilyLife Today.

FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas, a ministry of Campus Crusade for Christ.

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Complicated Grief

Guest: Albert Hsu

From the series: Grieving a Suicide (Day 1 of 2)

Bob: When a friend or a loved one chooses suicide, we can’t help but ask, “Why did this happen?” Albert Hsu experienced that when his father took his own life.

Al: The search for answers to the “Why?” questions is really a search for comfort. We’re wondering, “Are we alone in the universe now?” We feel abandoned by our loved one—our child, our parent, our spouse—that has left in this way. It feels like this tremendous rejection, because they chose to leave. They didn’t just get hit by a truck; they weren’t taken by cancer—they chose to abandon us or leave us in this way, so it feels like this tremendous rejection.

Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Thursday, October 4th. Our host is Dennis Rainey, and I’m Bob Lepine. So, what do we do with those questions that continue to plague us when a friend or a loved one takes his own life? We’re going to explore that today with Albert Hsu.

1:00

Stay with us.

And welcome to FamilyLife Today. Thanks for joining us. As you were just praying about today’s program, you talked about, “This is a delicate subject.” That’s what it is; isn’t it?

Dennis: It really is. I don’t think we realize how prevalent this is, in both the community of faith but also in the culture. I think Christians really need to grapple with this and have an answer to know how to best connect with both—people of faith, who’ve been impacted by suicide, or by those who are outside—

Bob: Yes.

Dennis: —the faith.

I want to read this quote, Bob. Dr. Jean Twenge of San Diego State University suggested that screen and social media time may have caused a jump in depression and suicide among American young people.

2:00

“I think the reality is screens have caused us to be even lonelier—

Bob: Yes.

Dennis: —“than we were before they came.”

Bob: And loneliness and disconnectedness from other people is one of those factors that may go into somebody deciding that it’s not worth continuing to live.

Dennis: That’s right. And isolation is not a good state to be in; I mean, you need relationships.

Bob: Yes.

Dennis: You need to be connected to people. Well, we have a guest with us today on the broadcast. Al Hsu joins us all the way from Chicago. Al, welcome to—to FamilyLife Today.

Al: Thanks for having me.

Dennis: Al is married to Ellen since 1997—has two sons, lives in Chicago, and is the senior editor of InterVarsity Press. Bob and I are grateful for your work with IVP, because of your editing skills. [Laughter] Any author needs an editor; no doubt about it.

3:00

He has written a book—and I’ve got to ask you: “What’s it like to write your own book and have somebody else edit it?” or “Did you let anybody edit it?”

Al: Oh, yes; every editor needs an editor as well.

Dennis: Okay; glad you confessed that, here, on the radio—probably some of your colleagues are listening in and will remind you about that.

Al has written a book called Grieving a Suicide: A Loved One’s Search for Comfort, Answers & Hope. Your life changed because of a phone call.

Al: That’s right. When I was about in my mid-20s, I got a phone call one Thursday morning. My wife and I had just gotten married nine months prior. We were young newlyweds. We were living in Chicago. My parents were in Minnesota, and we were about to visit them the following weekend. We were going to be visiting friends in Minnesota for a wedding, and we were going to stop in and see my folks; but then, Thursday morning, before work, the phone rang.

I couldn’t guess: “Why somebody would be calling that early in the morning?” I got the phone, and I heard wailing on the other side.

4:00

I didn’t know what this was—it was somebody crying/wailing. She said: “Daddy killed himself! Daddy killed himself!” It was my mother, and I—I just didn’t register. I didn’t understand what she was saying. “Daddy? Daddy? Daddy who? My dad?”

To back up, my dad was 58 years old. He was an electrical engineer, PhD, brilliant man, always very self-sufficient, self-made kind of a guy; but three months prior to this, he had had a stroke. While he survived the stroke—he was doing some rehab and making some recovery—he fell into a clinical depression. Over those three months since the stroke, he didn’t see any purpose for life. He lost all sense of hope. My mom had gotten him to the hospital for observation; but even so, one night, he went into his room, asked not to be disturbed, and took his own life.

5:00

Dennis: Were you—were you in shock at that point?

Al: Yes; all the textbook definitions of shock—I went numb; I couldn’t process things. When people hear this kind of news—it’s what counselors call complicated grief or complicated bereavement, because we are actually dealing with two different things at once. We are both experiencing the grief of the loss, but we’re also experiencing trauma. A loss by suicide is traumatic and causes trauma—almost in the extent of a war experience—think of soldiers with PTSD. It’s that kind of violent experience that just completely shakes your world.

Dennis: I was thinking, as you were telling your story, I received a phone call in 1976—the year we started FamilyLife®—and it was not my mother on the phone; it was my brother.

6:00

He called me and, almost as bluntly as you described it, said, “Dad’s dead.” He had just been at our home. We had a great time together, working around the house; and I was growing up, as a young man. I was 28 years old, and I was appreciating him more and more.

It was interesting how—because I thought how much different it would be and the grief I felt if my dad had committed suicide—which he didn’t—but I can imagine it really does complicate the emotional picture for a son like that.

Al: That’s right. Complicated grief—you’re dealing with two realities at once. It’s both the normal grief of the loss that we would be feeling, no matter how our loved one died; but then there is also the additional shock and trauma. One is bad enough as it is, but combined—it’s like a one-two punch.

Bob: And it had to be disorienting.

7:00

I mean, you’re wanting answers to what you may never get answers for in that moment; right?

Al: Right; right. There is kind of a questioning that goes on. First of all, survivors are always saying: “Why didn’t I see this coming? I should have done something to prevent this. I should have seen the signs.” Then we are also asking, “How could this happen?” We’re asking survivor’s guilt questions—we feel like we’re responsible.

My mom was a nurse, and she was acting as my dad’s caregiver during the months after his stroke; so she did caregiver type things. She did the right things—watching out for him. She saw him slipping into depression. She got weapons out of the house. Even though she did all the right things, she wasn’t able to prevent the suicide; so she felt tremendous survivor’s guilt.

Dennis: Had you ever had any conversations with your dad about his depression, and how deep it was, and how dark that valley was for him?

Al: Not prior to his death—no; I had not realized the extent of his actual depression. I knew he had been feeling low.

8:00

We had had some phone calls and conversations in those months; but no, I had not realized.

Dennis: You decided to go back home then.

Al: Right.

Dennis: On your way, you stopped by your office; but you didn’t want to go inside.

Al: I couldn’t face people. Suicide is the kind of thing that divides your life into a before and after. Prior to it, life is normal and fine; and everything—you just go through life. After suicide, you question everything; and you don’t understand: “How can people go through this life? How can we make sense of a world that is so broken/so painful that somebody would want to end their own life?”

Bob: I think part of what we’re struggling with in these moments is we’ve all had days or periods, where we’ve thought, “Life isn’t going the way I want it to go, and I’m not happy with what’s going on in my life right now”; but we’ve never gotten ourselves to a point—

9:00

—or at least, if we have, it’s been, maybe, momentary, where we’ve thought, “I’d just like to end it all.”

You had a moment in your life, even prior to this, where you thought about suicide?

Al: I had some teenage times of depression. Depression and feeling down are very common. We shouldn’t—we should validate that and say, “Many, many people experience depression.”

I was almost comforted to realize how common suicide is. Once, after my dad’s death, I realized—I learned that, at the time, there were something like 30,000 suicides in the U.S. every year; now, it’s over 40,000. That number is probably under-reported, because there are a lot of suicides that are disguised as accidents.

Each one of those suicides leaves behind six to ten immediate survivors—parents, children, loved ones, spouses—that are immediately affected by that suicide. That’s hundreds of thousands of people every year that are going through this kind of grief.

10:00

It was an odd kind of comfort to know I was not alone in this particular kind of loss—there were others that had experienced this kind of loss as well.

Bob: And you wonder how much suicide ideation there is that never ends in suicide. I mean, how many people contemplate or consider suicide?

Al: Well, there are hundreds of thousands suicide attempts every year.

Bob: Wow.

Al: So, it is fairly common.

Dennis: You’re talking about 100 people a day that are successful, though; I mean, that is a big number. Again, there are people of faith that end up doing this.

Tell us about your father’s spiritual journey. Did he have a relationship with God?—with Christ?

Al: Well, I should back up and say that it is true that suicide and depression affect Christians just as much as the general population; so there is very little difference. Christians get depressed just as much as everybody else—just like Christians get cancer and diabetes like everybody else—

11:00

—so, yes, we are not immune.

One of the problems I think—particularly in the church—is that we are in a bit of a state of denial or, at least, Christians often try to over-spiritualize—we want to say: “Well, if you are having trouble. You just need to pray more, believe more, [and] hope more.”

We don’t always acknowledge that there may be biomedical challenges going on in the brain. There are sometimes biological reasons that people get depressed. I think the church is a little bit more aware in the past few years—that we’ve had a little more awareness of mental health and the realities of mental health issues.

Dennis: I have attended a number of funerals in my lifetime. Among the most memorable were those where it was a young person, who committed suicide—very, very sober; very troubling to attend.

12:00

It just raises all kinds of questions among those who are attending.

I think, for a pastor, it has to be one of the more challenging services to ever lead in your lifetime. It’s back to what you are talking about earlier. I don’t think the Christian community knows how to handle this. I think it’s a lot like when somebody dies—period—people don’t know what to say / how to comfort another person, who has lost their husband/lost a child; but when it becomes this double hurt of suicide, they really don’t know how to comfort.

Al: And pastors often wonder, “What do I say at the funeral of suicide?” One image that has been helpful for some pastors is the image of a soldier, who falls in battle, in fighting their own civil war—that people who die by suicide are often caught between the desire to live and the desire to die.

13:00

When the desire to die outweighs the desire to live, in that moment/in that season, that’s when a suicide might happen. We can grieve our loved ones as they fell on their own battlefield.

There’s a quote from a book by Willa Cather, My Ántonia—there is a prayer during a funeral—and the prayer that is prayed is: “Oh, Great and Just God, no man among us knows but the sleeper knows, nor is it for us to judge what lies between him and Thee.” In some ways, that’s often where we need to leave things—in the hands of God.

Bob: That’s hard to do; isn’t it?—to leave things there when the perplexing question of: “Why?” of “What could I have done?” “How?”—all of that continues to plague you for months, on end, after a funeral is over; doesn’t it?

Al: Oh, yes; yes.

14:00

The “Why?” questions happen at two different levels, I think. At one level, there is sort of the: “What were the causes? What were the factors? What triggered this? Did I do something? Did I miss something?”

At a deeper level, the search for answers to the “Why?” questions is really a search for comfort. We’re wondering: “Am I alone in this? Am I abandoned in this? Does God still care? Does God still exist? How could this have happened?” We are wondering, “Are we alone in the universe now?” We feel abandoned by our loved one—our child, our parent, our spouse—that has left in this way. It feels like this tremendous rejection, because they chose to leave.

Bob: Yes.

Al: They didn’t just get hit by a truck; they weren’t taken by cancer—they chose to abandon us or leave us in this way, so it feels like this tremendous rejection.

Dennis: I’ve heard some people describe it as worse than divorce. Divorce is a rejection, but a suicide is a rejection that leaves no opportunity to have any dialogue—

15:00

Al: Right.

Dennis: —any discourse—

Al: Right.

Dennis: —on a human level. Did you feel that?

Al: I did feel the sense of: “If my dad had really loved me, he wouldn’t have done this. How could he have left me in this way? How could he have abandoned me?” So, yes; suicide survivors do feel this mix of guilt, shame, rejection, pain, abandonment. It’s all swirling together in this mix.

Something that suicide survivors need to be very aware of is that we have a heightened risk for suicide for ourselves. Some loved ones will want to reenact the loved one’s final steps. They are trying to understand, “How could they have done this?” A mom might stand in front of the mirror, holding the gun and wonder: “What did my son do? How did it feel?” or they might stand on a balcony ledge and look and imagine their child jumping. Some suicide survivors do fall into self-destructive habits of alcohol or drug use to try to numb the pain.

16:00

If anybody is grieving and struggling with those things, I encourage them: “Please get help. Please find people to surround you, to keep an eye on you, and to not let yourself fall into those kinds of destructive patterns.”

Bob: If a friend of yours called you today and said: “It just happened in our family. My wife…” or “My dad…” or “My son just took their own life”; and you had two minutes to talk to them and just say, “Okay; here’s the most important thing I can tell you in this moment,”—what would you say?”

Al: As I interviewed other suicide survivors, the two things that they wanted to say to others—the first and most important one is: “It was not your fault. You did not do this. You did not cause this. They chose this for whatever reason, and we may never know, ultimately, why that happened.” The survivors’ guilt is so strong in cases like this, and people just need to hear and to know:

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“You did not do this to them. It’s not your fault.”

The other thing to know is: “You are not alone. There are others who have walked this path. There are others who grieve with you,”—and to encourage people to surround themselves with community, friends, church—others that can walk through this with them.

Dennis: And I think that’s an important thing to underline here. I’ve been reading in the Psalms. I am amazed at how many times God says: “I am your help. I am your refuge. I am here. I am with you.” God gives us the promise of His presence. I think we, as human beings, forget how powerful our presence—as fellow strugglers in the journey—how important our presence can be to a person, who has just experienced the loss of a loved one—

Bob: Yes.

Dennis: —because of suicide.

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If you are wondering what to do, the best gift that you could possibly, I think, begin to give that other person—I want you to comment on this, Al—seems to me to be: “You know, I’d just like to come and be with you.”

Al: Yes; presence is important and not to presume to have the answers. I love the Book of Psalms, because the Psalms give us a model in what are called the Psalms of Lament. A significant portion of Psalms—a third or more of the Psalms—are psalms, where the psalmists cry out their pain to God. They are raw, and they are vulnerable. They tell it like it is—they are not sugar-coating things.

Dennis: That’s right.

Al: They’re not hiding things in religious language. The beauty of the Psalms of Lament is that it gives a structure to our grief. Grief, by its very nature, is this formless, nebulous kind of thing. We sort of go in cycles; and go over things over, and over, and over again; and we feel lost in a fog.

The psalmists in the Psalms of Lament—it was a way of ordering Israel’s grief—

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—that we bring our pain to God, and we cry out: “Lord, the world is not the way it’s supposed to be. This loss, this pain, this grief is not the way You intended the world to be; and we grieve that / we lament that. We wish it were not so.”

In doing so, it gets out all the pain that we’re feeling. It’s—a modern-day way of saying it would be: “It’s how they processed things. It’s a way of processing.” So what—it gets out on the outside what’s going on inside. I love how Scripture gives us the permission to grieve. Sometimes, Christians think: “Oh, I should just have a stiff upper lip. I shouldn’t be grieving,” but Jesus tells us that we should grieve: “Blessed are those who mourn, because they will be comforted.” Jesus weeps at the tomb of Lazarus.

Bob: And cries out from the cross—Psalm 22: “My God, why have You forsaken Me?”

Al: Yes; then the beauty of the Psalms of Lament is that, half way through the Psalms, there is a pivot; and we say: “But yet, I will remember You. But yet, I still have my hope in You.

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“I still place my trust in You.” Then there is this recounting of: “You’ve been faithful to us in the past.” So, based on who God is and what He has done in the past, we can entrust—even this great pain / even this awful world, where people die by their own hand—we can entrust that to God. We can trust that God hears our cry and will respond.

Dennis: Death is interesting. It’s a great apologetic for the existence of God, because only God could produce hope in such a dark place; but read the Psalms. You’ll find the God, who is a refuge—our fortress, our foundation, our hope. His Word is sure; His promises are certain.

Bob: Yes.

Dennis: You may not experience it at the moment of the grief, but you will experience His presence.

Bob: You were talking about the power and the significance of presence—and being there for someone else.

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I am thinking, for a listener, who knows someone who has experienced a suicide—

Dennis: —this would be a great book.

Bob: —but to offer the book—not just “Here’s a book for you”—but to say: “Here’s a book, and I’m here for you. I’d love to read through this with you. I’d love to help enter into this with you.”

Of course, we’ve got copies of the book, Grieving a Suicide, on our website at FamilyLifeToday.com; and you can order it from us when you go online. We also have an extended conversation with our guest—with Al Hsu. You can download the file as we talked about some of the pitfalls of remembering the events of the suicide / remembering the family. We talk about how you explain suicide to a child. Again, that’s some bonus content that is online as we are going to continue this conversation with Al Hsu.

Go to FamilyLifeToday.com to order the book, Grieving a Suicide, or to download the bonus audio. Again, the website is FamilyLifeToday.com.

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You can also order the book by calling 1-800-FL-TODAY—that’s 1-800-“F” as in family, “L” as in life, and then the word, “TODAY.”

You know, we’ve been talking about tough subjects this week—talking about opioid addiction / talking about suicide. One of the things we try to do, here, at FamilyLife is dive into some of the subjects that can rock a marriage or a family and to bring practical biblical help and hope in the midst of that situation. Every day, this program is reaching hundreds of thousands of people, all around the world, who are listening online, listening on their local radio station, using our app. Many have started listening by asking Alexa to “Play FamilyLife Today” for them. That’s a skill that you can add in your Alexa app.

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If you’ve never made a donation, we’d love to have you join the FamilyLife Today team. If you’re not yet a Legacy Partner, we’d love to have you join with that group of regular contributors to this ministry. You can do either when you go to FamilyLifeToday.com—make a one-time donation or become a monthly Legacy Partner. Donate, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com; or call 1-800-FL-TODAY to donate.

We have our 2019 FamilyLife calendar that is just now available. We’re starting to send it out to folks. This is a calendar that helps promote togetherness in your family throughout the year. The calendar is our gift to you when you support the ministry with a donation this month.

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We hope you’ll join us back again tomorrow as we continue to talk about how you can help those who are grieving a suicide or how you can find comfort for own your soul if someone you know has taken his or her own life. Al Hsu will be back with us tomorrow. I hope you can be back as well.

I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I’m Bob Lepine. We will see you back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today.

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Compounded Loss

Guest: Albert Hsu

From the series: Grieving a Suicide (Day 2 of 2)

Bob: If you have a friend or a family member, and you’ve been concerned that they might be contemplating self-harm, is there anything you can say or do? Albert Hsu says there is.

Al: The Bible actually gives a great example of suicide prevention. In the Book of Acts—in Acts 16, Paul and Silas are in prison in Philippi. The earthquake happens and they’re released from their chains. The Philippian jailer is about to kill himself, because he knows he’ll be held accountable. He’s drawing his sword—he’s about to take his own life—and Paul cries out: “Don’t harm yourself. We are all here.” He intervenes—he gives him hope; he gives him a reason to live—and the jailer and his whole household come to Christ.

We can do the same. When we see people at risk around us, we can say: “Don’t harm yourself. We are all here. We are here for you,” and “Life is worth living,” and “You don’t have to take this path.”

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Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Friday, October 5th. Our host is Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine. We need to be aware and alert to others around us who may be in a season of dark despair, to know how we can help and minister to them. We’ll talk more about that today with our guest, Albert Hsu. Stay with us.

And welcome to FamilyLife Today. Thanks for joining us. We’re talking this week about double grief—about the loss of someone we love / the trauma when that loss happens because that person took his or her own life—and then, in some cases, Dennis, the need for the person, who’s going through that double grief, to turn around and be a caregiver to others who are grieving in your family or in your circle. It’s a hard place to be.

Dennis: It really is, but there is a passage in Paul’s writings to the church at Corinth—

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—he says, “Comfort others with the comfort with which you have been comforted.” God doesn’t want us to waste our grief. He doesn’t want us to feel like it’s minimized either, because there is—I don’t think there is any grief like those who grieve a suicide.

We have the author of a book called Grieving a Suicide, Al Hsu, with us again. Al, welcome back.

Al: Thanks for having me.

Dennis: Your dad took his life how many years ago?

Al: Twenty years now.

Dennis: Twenty years ago. What percent would you say you’re over or you have grieved the loss of your father?

Al: I don’t think any of us ever fully get over anything like this. I was talking to another person, who lost her dad to suicide; and she said, “It’s been 25 years, and I still grieve him every day.”

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Just this week, actually, I talked to another person who lost a friend in high school to suicide. There were some recent things that had just triggered some memories, and she’s still grieving that particular loss in a very powerful way. It does stay with us for a very long time.

It does change, though, over the years. When I lost my dad in my 20s, I grieved him, as a father, at that stage of life—I wished he would have been there, present, as a dad. But now, 20 years later, I grieve him in my 40s, as the grandfather that my sons have never known. I lament all the birthdays, and celebrations, and family things that he was not part of—that’s another layer of grieving that we do in this era.

Bob: Any of us, who have lost parents, for any reason, experience that level of grief. How is it compounded, do you think, for those when the grieving has a suicide connected to it?

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Al: Suicide heightens and intensifies the regular grief. If it’s a child/teenager that dies by suicide, what would already be a very sad teen death is heightened in even more painful teen suicide. It introduces all different layers of complexity as far as, not only is this person no longer with us, it is also that we have to grapple with how they left us.

If it had been a car accident or cancer, or something like that, we could blame the drunk driver, we could blame the cancer; or if it had been the murderer, we could rage against the murderer. But in this case, our loved one died at his own hand. We grieve them with all the sadness, and love, and pain that would be normal; but we also rage against them, and we are angry at them, and we hate them for doing this to themselves.

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Anger is very common as another emotion after a suicide.

Dennis: Al, thank you—thank you for saying that anger is a normal response. I have a feeling that there is more than one survivor of suicide in their family who has felt that rage and felt like it was wrong—it was wrong to feel that way. But you’re saying, “No; anger is a secondary emotion that is expressed when one’s hurt.”

Al: Right; and it’s very common. One bereavement counselor told me that she sees people in cemeteries, all the time, yelling at gravestones. Anger is a very common response to grief.

Bob: When you got the news of your father’s suicide from your mom, you got in the car and drove from Chicago to Minnesota. You were grieving; but now, you were in a position to try to comfort your mom in her grief.

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So, how did you handle the grieving that you were going through and the need to be a comforting son in that moment?

Al: In many ways, we just sort of kicked into handling logistics and being busy—taking care of details with the funeral home—and things like that. I was feeling pretty numb. People who specialize in trauma tell us that, after trauma, we are often immobilized in many ways. Our normal fight-or-flight response shuts down, and we have a freeze response. In some ways, I’m very grateful for how my wife and others helped fill in around us; whereas I didn’t always know what to do / I couldn’t always act—

Dennis: Yes; let me stop you there. You’d only been married a few months; hadn’t you?

Al: Yes; yes—nine months.

Dennis: So, Ellen stepped in. How was she a helpmate?

Al: I’m so grateful for her walking with me throughout all this. She was my shoulder to cry on; she gave all the practical support needed as we were running around, taking care of stuff.

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In many ways, our marriages, our families, our churches provide that kind of surrounding structure and support in a time of loss like this.

Dennis: So, you were in your early 20s; right?

Bob, I’m thinking, “How prepared were you, in your early 20s, to come alongside Mary Ann, me, alongside Barbara, if there had been a suicide, to even—

Bob: —to know what to do?

Dennis: —“even know what to say, how to be there, how to just provide that shoulder to cry on?”

Bob: I think that’s where a lot of people feel inadequate in the moment, whatever age they are. When they hear about a friend, they go, “I don’t know what to say; I don’t know what to do,”—so that’s where they withdraw.

If you’re coaching someone to know what to say or do, what do they say or do?

Al: Well, I have a list of things not to say. [Laughter] I think Christians are often quick to give the pat answer—and even if they’re biblical / even if they’re well-intentioned—

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—they sometimes come across as too quick to assure somebody of, “Oh, God has a plan for this,” and all—

Bob: Romans 8:28 is out at this point; right?

Al: —all those phrases that are often given.

I do have to say, in particular—one of my relatives used the line: “You’ll get through this. What doesn’t kill you makes you stronger.” It is like—well, first of all, it’s not from the Bible—it’s from Nietzsche. Even though it’s a catchy Kelly Clarkson song now, it’s not biblical. To someone who has lost someone to suicide—how you hear it is that, “Oh, my dad was not strong enough, and so he died because of this.”

I think it’s much more helpful to just be present with somebody—to listen and to say, “Are there things I can do to help?”—to not have to have the answers of why this happened or where God is in this.

One phrase, or one question, that has been helpful is, “What do you want to remember about your loved one?”—

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—because, often, we are grieving in the moment. We’re thinking about those awful last days / those awful last moments. We forget that is only one chapter of a fuller life. If you are able to invite somebody to tell their story—tell their family story and to practice remembrance—this is a very biblical practice of remembering how God has been faithful in the past, how this person has lived and loved, and their story is bigger than just how they died.

Bob: Did your dad leave us a suicide note?

Al: No; he did not. Only about a quarter of suicides leave behind any kind of note or message.

Bob: Did you wish he had?

Al: I don’t know. It’s—a suicide note—it’s often said that they’re unreliable indications of the loved one’s last moments or thoughts.

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I’ve been comforted more so, I guess, by seeing old letters, and cards, and emails from my dad—to remember him at his best times.

Dennis: Yes; and not have words that were his last words before he passed.

Bob: And it was clear that it had been suicide. There was never any question of whether it had been an accident of some sort?

Al: Right; no. Actually, that’s another thing that often we, as survivors—we want to find an alternate explanation. Some suicides are explained as accidents: “Oh, he didn’t mean to take all those pills,” “Oh, she didn’t mean to…” whatever it is, you know; because our minds may not be able to process the reality.

I think it’s important for us to tell the truth about what actually happened. We don’t have to put it on the news or anything—but just to acknowledge: “This is what actually happened,” and we can’t—let’s not self-deceive ourselves.

Dennis: You mentioned that people ask the question, “Why?”

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That becomes an urgent issue—to try to get an answer to it.

Al, I have made it a habit, when I go to a funeral, to make notes on the funeral program of what lesson I could learn from the person who’s died. You’ll see here—I just pulled this one out of my Bible. This is Chuck Colson’s remembrance, 1931-2012; and it has lessons from him.

I had another one from a little girl, who was 12 years old, killed in a tragic car wreck, whose father was a doctor, who spoke at her memorial service. He made, to me, the best counsel I have ever heard around this question of, “Why?” He said this—he said, “I refuse to ask the question, ‘Why?’ until I can ask it of the One who can answer it.” What he was saying there is: “I’m not sure there’s going to be a satisfactory answer here; but when I get to heaven and I see Love, face to face—

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“—I see Almighty God, face to face—I can ask that question, at that point, and it will make sense. The answer will be profound.”

Al: And in the meantime, we are not even really looking for the answer to the “Why?” We’re looking for someone who can comfort us in the midst of the “Why?” questions.

Dennis: Right.

Al: I think of an analogy that somebody once told me. Let’s imagine that you break your leg, and that you’re rushed to the hospital, and they’re working on you. You ask the doctor, “Doctor, why did this happen?” He says, “Well, you were running at this speed; and you fell at this angle, and you broke your leg; and that’s why it happened.” And then they leave. You know, at that point, I don’t really need the explanation.

Bob: Right.

Al: I need the doctor to set the bone; I need the physician to heal me. That’s really what we’re looking for when we’re asking the “Why?” questions. We’ll never get a full answer to the “Why?” questions; but we need the Great Physician to heal our broken heart.

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Bob: Well, and we think, if we get an answer, that somehow that will bring us comfort—that: “Oh, if I understood why, then I can be at peace.”

Well, in the case of people, who are experiencing deep depression, and they’re at a point where they’re no longer wanting to live—if we know that’s the answer—I don’t know that that solves anything for us.

You had somebody, not long after your dad had died—you learned of a friend, who was battling depression and had attempted suicide; right?

Al: Yes.

Bob: You can reach out in those moments and go, “Why would she do that?” but your response—I thought your response to that was very interesting. How did you respond when you got that news?

Al: Well, I sort of cried and wailed: “Why is this world so broken that people feel this loss, this pain, this abandonment—that they feel like this world is not worth living?”

What is helpful for us, as Christians, is to realize that God is present with us in a suffering world—

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—that, in fact, it’s not only that Jesus understands—you know, God is not the kind of abstract philosophical God that looks at us from a distance. Jesus became human and experienced the suffering of the human body and died on a cross. But that wasn’t the end of the story. He made a way on the other side—after the crucifixion was resurrection. That is the hope of the Christian story—that we are not left in our pain / we are not left in our suffering—that there is more to the story—that we have hope of resurrection.

Dennis: I have never forgotten my dad’s funeral. I mentioned earlier that I received a phone call early one morning—Sunday morning—that my dad had gotten up, and made himself a cup of coffee, and went back to the bedroom—said he had some heartburn and lay down.

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By the time my mom went back to see him again, he was dead; so there were no goodbyes. There was no opportunity to say anything to him.

I’m wondering what your recollection was of the funeral; because my recollection of the funeral was: “My dad worked hard, but now he’s at rest. There is no struggle; there is no more pain.” What do you recall about your father’s?

Al: The main thing I remember is that my wife and I—I play piano / I’m a pianist—and my wife is a worship leader. We sang and played It Is Well with My Soul.

Bob: How long does it take you to get to the point where you can say that with—not just by faith—because you went from a period of being numb to then a period of having to kind of come, face to face, with your own emotions. Was it an easy step for you to get to where you could say, “It is well with my soul”?

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Al: I’m glad that the song made me say words that I was not necessarily able to fully believe until later. I think, in some ways, that is symbolic of the church holding us—that the church says, “We believe in God the Father,” and that even when we are in the midst of the pain, there’s a church around us that is believing on our behalf—holding us up on our behalf and saying/professing our faith and hope in Christ—even when we’re in the midst of the pain.

There are no linear stages of grief. There are always cycles of—you’re going through different stages over and over again. You don’t finish the anger stage and then move on to the acceptance stage. There’s an ongoing process of grief and grieving and re-grieving over and over again. But in the midst of it all, I do think we can have hope that God is present and walking through us.

Bob: Twenty years afterwards, the waves of grief are, I’m imagining, farther apart and less disorienting than they were; but still regular for you?

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Al: Less so now. There’s—to some extent, every time I’m asked to talk about my dad’s death, I’m grieving him all over again.

Bob: You’re back into it; yes.

Al: But to the extent that it helps others—share their own stories and deal with their own grief—and to say, “You are not alone in this,”—it’s worth it.

Something that I’m grateful for is that, in the past few years, the church has spoken a little more about suicide, and depression, and mental health, partly because of the loss of Rick and Kay Warren’s son, Matthew, in 2013. They lost their son to suicide. But, out of that, Kay Warren and Saddleback Church have launched mental health initiatives to help the church grapple and to help those who have been struggling.

Countless lives have been saved—people who have been struggling with depression, who have heard Matthew’s story, who have said: “I need help, and I will find hope. I will find the strength to go on.”

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I’m glad that the church is active in helping those who struggle.

I should say this: “The Bible actually gives a great example of suicide prevention.” In the Book of Acts—in Acts 16, Paul and Silas are in prison in Philippi. The earthquake happens, and they’re released from their chains. The Philippian jailer is about to kill himself, because he knows he’ll be held accountable. He’s drawing his sword; he’s about to take his own life. Paul cries out: “Don’t harm yourself. We are all here.” He intervenes—he gives him hope / he gives him a reason to live—and the jailer and his whole household come to Christ.

We can do the same. When we see people at risk around us, we can say: “Don’t harm yourself. We are all here. We are here for you,” and “Life is worth living,” and “You don’t have to take this path.”

Dennis: You mention in your book that they had a visitation.

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The thing you took note of was the number of family members that went near the casket and wanted to say things to your dad.

You may not know this, but my dad died before I got a chance to say everything I wanted to say to him. It ended up with me writing a tribute to my mom and framing it and taking it to her. But I ended up writing a tribute to my dad, after he was gone.

I’m assuming you had some of the same regrets that I had—different reasons; but nonetheless, you’d like to have said it. If we had the ability to seat your father across from the table right now, could you give him a tribute?

Al: In some ways, this book that I’ve written is a tribute to my dad. I would want to say to him:

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We have lived our lives. I have lived my life in a remembrance of you—to honor you. I hope, that by telling our family story, it is helping other families in their grief.

My dad was a very private man—he was an introvert; he did not want to call attention to himself; but I was impressed, at the funeral, how many people he was connected to that came and gave their tributes. All of our lives are interconnected in ways that we don’t always realize, and the impact and ripple effects that we have is significant.

Losing my dad to suicide is the hardest thing I’ve ever experienced, but I hope that it has changed me in a way that has made me more available to other people in their own grief and suffering.

Dennis: That’s a good word. That really is a good word—to take something that you didn’t ask for—

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—but to take a trauma, and not turn against God, but ask Him to use that in your life to comfort others, bring encouragement, hope, perspective—and if nothing else—just your presence to their lives.

Bob: Well, and in that way, your book is the tribute that you’re talking about to your dad. It’s also a needed resource in our day for people who are grieving a suicide—that’s the title of the book that Al Hsu has written. You can order Grieving a Suicide when you go online at FamilyLifeToday.com, or you can call 1-800-FLTODAY to request your copy. Again, the website is FamilyLifeToday.com, and the phone number is 1-800-358-6329—1-800- “F” as in family, “L” as in life, and then the word, “TODAY.”

By the way, we have some additional interaction with Al Hsu available online—

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—it’s a podcast of continuing dialogue on the subject of suicide. That’s available for you if you’d like to download that or go deeper on this subject. Find the audio at FamilyLifeToday.com.

I’m thinking, Dennis, of the archive of programs on difficult subjects. Through the years, we’ve talked about domestic violence; we’ve talked about infidelity in a marriage relationship; we’ve talked about rebellious teenagers—I mean, there have been programs that we’ve developed over the years to help individuals / help couples and families with the hard issues that come at us in this life. Our goal, here, is to equip you with practical biblical help and hope for the challenges you face in your marriage and your family.

When you support the ministry of FamilyLife Today, you make all of this possible for the hundreds of thousands of people who are connecting with us each week online, via radio, through our app, or those who are now connecting using their Alexa device.

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They’re telling Alexa to “Play FamilyLife Today.” Once you’ve built that skill into the app, it’s as easy to listen as just to have Alexa serve the program up for you every day.

You make all of that possible for countless young couples and families every time you make a donation to support this ministry. You can donate, right now, by going to FamilyLifeToday.com—make an online donation—or call 1-800-FL-TODAY and donate over the phone.

When you donate, we’d like to say, “Thank you,” by sending you our 2019 FamilyLife® calendar. We have designed this, not just to be something that’s beautiful to hang on your wall, but something that reminds you of Scripture each month and that points you to activities that you can do, as a family, to build togetherness. There are “Togetherness Tips” all through this calendar. It’s our gift to you when you make a donation, so you can request it when you donate online or when you call 1-800-FL-TODAY to donate.

And we hope you have a great weekend this weekend.

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I hope you and your family are able to worship together in your local church, and I hope you can join us back on Monday. Have you ever had the situation where you’ve hit “Send” and then regretted it? Emerson Eggerichs is going to join us Monday to talk about how we can keep that from happening—what we can do before we hit “Send” so we don’t wind up wishing we hadn’t pushed that button. I hope you can tune in for that.

I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine. Have a great weekend. We will see you Monday for another edition of FamilyLife Today.

FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas; a Cru® Ministry.

Help for today. Hope for tomorrow.

We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you’ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs?

Copyright © 2018 FamilyLife. All rights reserved.

www.FamilyLife.com

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