The Crabby Pastor - SoundSage

View Details

How do we navigate the turbulent waters of church polarization and foster unity? Join me, Margie Bryce, along with Michael Bischoff from Soul Leader Resources, as we tackle this pressing issue on the Crabby Pastor podcast.With more denominations than you can count, the church is more divided than ever. We reflect on Jesus' prayer for oneness in John 17, and consider how societal instincts to identify enemies contribute to further fractures. Election seasons and post-COVID tensions have only heightened these divides, but there are new approaches pastors can take to foster a more unified community.Michael and I explore how to manage the dynamics at play while fostering a relationship with God that transcends fear.We also take a deep look at recognizing authoritarian and narcissistic leadership within the church. Identifying traits such as the use of fear, the creation of in-groups and out-groups, and the suppression of dissent that can help pastors self-reflect and avoid these pitfalls. Michael shares valuable resources for further understanding, and we emphasize the importance of inclusivity and holistic spiritual formation. Additionally, we address the critical issue of burnout among ministry leaders, offering tools and advice for self-assessment and recovery. Don't become the "Crabby Pastor"—listen in for insights on maintaining healthy self-care practices and fostering a thriving church community.To connect with Michael... go HERE.

Support the show

This is a GUILT-FREE zone! So here's your friendly nudge about self-care and its importance for the sake of your family, friends, and those you serve in ministry.Get your FREE Burnout Questionnaire to help you assess whether you are dealing with just general tiredness or something MORE. CLICK HERE FOR THE BURNOUT QUESTIONNAIRE.I love scouring around to find great content to share, and am always interested in feedback, if you are or know of someone willing to share their Back from Burnout story so we can all learn together, then CLICK HERE to email me.And, if this is a reminder you wish to opt out of, that's fine too.Blessings on your journey!Margie

🦀 🦀 🦀

Find regular support on my Facebook group by clicking HERE.Connect with me about COACHING and Workshops on self-care HERE.

TranscriptMargie: 0:01

Hey there, it's Margie Bryce, your host of the Crabby Pastor podcast, where we talk about all things sustainability, whether it's sustainability in ministry, in your personal life and we acknowledge that the church is in a transitional time, so we hit topics there, too that are going to stretch your mind and the way you lead, especially how you lead yourself, so that you don't become the crabby pastor. And it's Margie Bryce with the Crabby Pastor podcast, here with you today, and I think we're going to get divisive. No, I don't know, maybe you just have to listen and decide for yourself. I'm here with Michael Bischoff, with Soul Leader, and we're going to talk about this crazy era in which we find ourselves. I always like to refer to any election season as that silly season. Some people take offense at that, but I do have a spiritual gift that you should be aware of, and that's the ability to offend everybody in the room, regardless of which way they lean on any particular issue at the same time. I really think that's some kind of spiritual gift.

Michael: 1:21

That's awesome.Margie: 1:22

Yeah, isn't it? It's just kind of like my disclaimer now, so I'm going to annoy you. You know, what I mean, right? So, michael, you've been here with us before, but please take a moment to reintroduce yourself and tell us how you serve the church.

Michael: 1:40

Yeah, thanks.

Michael: 1:42

I just want to chime in here because one of my mentors used to say you're going to need to forgive me by what I don't mean by what I say, because else we're stepping on toes all the time, right, and people assume we mean something when we often don't.

Michael: 1:55

And yeah, my name is Michael Bischoff. I am the founder and kind of lead consultant and coach with Soul Leader Resources, an organization I founded 24 years ago, and I did that because, after being in pastoral ministry many years, I pastored for 30 years in total and also did Soul Leader at the same time but I just found there were so many issues that pastors and leaders and missionaries and denominations and seminary students were struggling with and I wanted to be able to come alongside and see if I could offer some help. That seemed to be really a gift that God had given me was to come alongside leaders and encourage them, and I've been doing that for 24 years at Soul Leader and even some years before that, and still get to hang out with a whole bunch of churches and even do some interim pastoring in them at times and absolutely love being able to bring encouragement to leaders.

Margie: 2:52

Well, thank you so much for being willing to chat again, and I know we had talked about a list of things the first time you were on and this topic of well, we kind of have lumped a few things together here. But the divisive time that we're in, the polarity that we seem to experience, and whether it's an election, whatever the topic is, and how can we help pastors to think a little differently about this, to help them push through and persevere through these times? I mean even because the topics you gave me are kind of post-COVID related, but some of this was really rampant in the COVID era. You know, all you had to do was either show up with or without a mask somewhere.Margie: 3:48

And it just people got really wicky about the whole thing and I sort of understand. I mean, I had friends telling me that they were wearing a mask and for heaven's sakes, you never know whether somebody has had a double lung transplant the month before. You just don't know. But people would come up behind them and one of my friends in particular does have a serious autoimmune thing and people would come up behind them and kind of cough at them. These are people not wearing a mask. And I thought, well, that's just.

Margie: 4:23

I mean these are people not wearing a mask and I thought, well, that's just. I mean, what do we have to say about people?

Michael: 4:29

Right, right, well, yeah, it makes me think if we go all the way back to scripture, to John 17, right In the high priestly prayer and Jesus prays the Lord that they may be one as we are one, and there's this wonderful, beautiful prayer for unity. And then you think of the church from that time on post Jesus, first century, second century and it's not long before the groups just start to divide. And I don't know what it is currently, but every year the handbook on denominations comes out and it's somewhere above 40,000 different denominations. So we've split it apart pretty good and we've not done a very good job at being one. So you know, throughout all of time I think we've always struggled with unity.

Seeing things the same way, we want to be different and we like to disagree with others and even sometimes make the other an enemy. Recently I heard someone saying that if you study I think it's sociology from a tribalism perspective, that in order to protect the tribe you always need an enemy. And that makes me realize much of what has happened in the church is sometimes identifying what we think is the enemy that's going to harm us, destroy us, lead others astray, and so much of our energy is just put into that, making that person the other or the enemy, or assuming they're against us, rather than starting from a place of unity, like I think Jesus wanted us to do in John 17. So I kind of smile right when we even think about COVID, because while it did get worse during COVID right the polarization, if we want to just call it something many of our churches had a good sense of unity prior to that. We'll just talk about our individual local churches because we know denominations have split over time over so many issues. It's not even funny.

Margie: 6:25

No, I got stuck. I got stuck back at your thing about the handbook of denominations. There's a handbook of denominations.

Michael: 6:33

Oh yeah, and it's published every year. I don't know if it's still as it used to be, but every year it would come out. Why? Because there's probably a couple thousand more and so yeah, so, but if we focused even on our own church, it did seem to be easier in a post-pandemic era to find unity, at least in our church, and that's not always the case. But we kind of tolerated people who were different than us, or at least we knew there were people with different political views and some had maybe even different doctrinal views, and they saw things differently. We just seemed to have more acceptance for each other. And then something happened in the midst of the pandemic, and I think there are some root causes to that, and we can talk about some of those that created in the average local church greater polarization than most leaders had ever seen, or definitely what most leaders felt equipped to deal with, and that created this problem

.Margie: 7:26

Yeah, and it does get to the place and the point with some people where you're unsure how much you should or could say with them and I think that that puts up barriers to relationship, which is that's sad.

Michael: 7:49

It is. Yeah, it is sad Because, right, you have people on one side that are trying to be sensitive and do the most loving thing toward those around us was thinking that we're living out that biblical mandate to love our neighbor as ourself and be cautious and careful, and sometimes that meant putting a mask on or getting a vaccination or whatever, or not meeting. And then you have those that don't really want to be told what to do. It's not that they are trying to be unloving, but maybe the greater value comes along in independence and not having government or anybody really tell you what to do. So freedom is important to them.

Michael: 8:28

And now you've got the makings of what polarization is looking for, right, differences of opinion like that, and it just I think it was the perfect breeding ground for polarization to happen.

Michael: 8:42

And you throw into that to certain types of leaders that realize that if you came at things in a well, maybe a more authoritarian way, that others would then flock to that, because they wanted someone to tell them what to do or probably a better way to say it, they needed someone to calm their anxiety.

Michael: 9:02

And there's been sociological studies that have been done that I think are pretty fascinating. There's a Canadian psychologist and professor named Bob Altemeier who, in a book he wrote, called the Authoritarians, and he writes that when there are high levels of anxiety and stress, somewhere in the neighborhood of 30% of the population are attracted to authoritarian leaders who calm their anxiety. So now again we have the makings for polarization, because those that really feel the need for their anxiety to be calmed are going to look for a certain type of leader that's going to speak with authority or strength or truthfulness or, you know, not compromise. They're just looking for that. And many churches grew who had that type of leader, or I'm going to even say certain leaders chose to become that kind of leader, realizing that they could see growth with that tactic.

Margie: 9:59

And you know, this gets really kind of weirdly interesting, because I was at a training Enneagram training and it was with Suzanne Stabile, and the topic was asked which one of the numbers is the most prevalent in the culture? And actually it's a six and these people are, and she said it was more than 50%. And I thought, what Are you kidding me? And so then, because I come from a marketing, communications and an advertising background before ministry, I started thinking, oh my gosh, this is why you see advertising the way it is. You know, hurry and get this or you're going to miss out, or it's just definitely fear based because it goes at that. And then if you throw in things like freed men and family systems theory and you look at people's anxiety and how well they are able to calm themselves or not calm themselves, you know it's easier just to have somebody take care of that for you. And Friedman would probably say we're a society in regression right now. Anyway, that things, that this is just the way things are headed right now, where people are challenged. And you would think because I think it's reasonable to consider that perhaps church would be a place to go to have your anxieties and your fear.

Michael: 11:37

Yeah.

Margie: 11:38

Not so much dealt with. I don't want to say dealt with. Dealt with, I don't want to say they it is. It would be an outlet for you to sit for a minute and really put things into proper perspective with your relationship with God.

Margie: 11:56

And who do I really think? But quite often we don't stop long enough to do that kind of work in terms of fear. But so then the next best thing is, if I don't want to manage myself, handle myself properly, I'm going to look for somebody to do it for me. And I was always told that any good pastor is not going to let you try to ride their coattails to heaven, but any good pastor is going to push you to a relationship with Christ.Michael: 12:30

Yeah, yeah, that's good. You know it's sad because you know I've heard many times that the number one command in scripture, or the command used more times than any other I've never done this study to see if it is, but I assume that it is is fear not or do not fear, right. Scripture tells us to not fear and yet we tend to live in such an environment of fear and that's really something I did see in both the pandemic world we lived in and in the post-pandemic world. Still there's a much higher degree of fear. I hear that in the kinds of sermons and messages that are being preached, because we work with a lot of churches, a lot of pastors, so I'm trying to listen for what's out there. I hear it even in the way that worship is led and the things that worship leaders might say are those that are praying from the front Like what I need.

Margie: 13:19

some examples here of this.

Michael: 13:21

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean, I must not go to a church that does this, but Well, that's probably a good thing that you don't right.

Michael: 13:28

But it's easy when you get up in front of people. It's easy to kind of play into that fear by somehow making what's out there seem more fearful than it really is. And that's what I hear kind of in prayers often is oh God, it's so bad out there, right, it's so scary. We have so much to face and we don't know if we're going to be able to do it. And we need you to rise up and conquer it all, rather than to realize that if the kingdom of God is active and living around us, that's a perfectly safe place to be. That was a quote that Dallas Willard used to say when he'd talk about the divine conspiracy. He would just literally say and it's the one he got the most pushback on. Actually that he would say is that living in the kingdom of God is a perfectly safe place to be.

Michael: 14:19

Yet that doesn't work well if you want people to live in fear and when you realize that if you create and increase their fear, they might need you more, they might need your church more, they might give more money to your church or they might believe what you say or follow you.

Michael: 14:38

So again, this is the way. Maybe an authoritarian leader might use fear as a real or concocted enemy to help people follow more strongly, and that's not helpful because that increases the polarization right. And then I think one of the things I see many pastors come to me and in our coaching or in our relationships or training or whatever they're saying, they don't know what to do with all the people in their church that come to them and are asking them to preach on topics, or to preach on certain topics with a different kind of authority than they typically do. Why? Because the people are fearful and they want their pastor to more boldly speak about certain things that didn't happen to the extent four, five, six years ago that we see it happening today. And now many people not only ask for it, but there's a little bit of an agenda, even that Pastor, if you're not going to do this.

Michael: 15:37

A little bit of an agenda, even that pastor, if you're not going to do this, I'm going to go down the street to the church that is doing this, once again creating polarization, because if certain kind of people leave and they go to a certain kind of church that's down the street with a certain kind of leader saying a certain kind of thing, now what that leaves behind is a different kind of person that's willing to stay at that church. See so even the kinds of churches that we see have different constituencies with less diversity in them because of this polarization.

Margie: 16:05

Well, that's disturbing.

Michael: 16:07

It is. On a number of levels.

Margie: 16:10

And I remember pastoring in my first church and one of the congregants did come to me and just kind of made a casual observation and said, pastor, you don't preach on any of the social issues. And I said well, you know, I will when we get to the place where people understand what it means to be a disciple of Jesus. I said because there's people who have been in church more than 20 years and if you ask them to describe what it means to be a disciple of Jesus, you know you hear like the crickets chirping. And I said, and I find that very, very disturbing. So, you know, when you got to the end of your sermon, sermon and you're going to give the, here's what it looks like because of all the rest of the stuff I already just said to you, here's what it looks like to be a disciple. In response to that, you know, then that would be the picture that I would paint. And I thought, you know, if we were to really understand what it means to be disciples, I think a lot of conversations would look differently. I mean, I don't project to say how or anything.

Margie: 17:25

One of my seminary professors did say that the church in North America is in a crisis of immaturity. Crisis of immaturity and I thought, well, you're my new best friend just for saying that. Because I thought, how is it? You've been to church that long and you don't understand some of the real basics of the Christian faith? Instead, it becomes more about social principles and I'm actually starting to see and I don't know if this is connected to the election cycle or season that we're about to start or are in, or something that people are saying, well, I'm not going to get into, that's a cultural issue and I'm not going to get into that. And I thought, oh my goodness, I've never, ever, heard those words fall out of people's mouths. It's rather shocking.

Michael: 18:20

Yeah.

Margie: 18:21

I don't know if that's going to stem the tide with some of the divisiveness I mean it's rampant on social media and here's where they go on social media Unless you believe as a Christian in the same way that I think about being a Christian, then you're not a Christian. And even Christ said you can't say to another person I think it's Raca R-A-C-A, meaning the Margie Bryce translation of that word is good for nothing. You can't say somebody's not good for anything, right, no use for you. Um, so it really calls us to really examine some things it does how do you know you, I am sitting under.

Margie: 19:07

I'll know I'm sitting under an authoritarian leader when you have any kind of oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's a good way to ask for it. So then, pastors could say am I this? I don't know.

Michael: 19:21

Yeah, no, I think it's worth our study. I know this can be exhausting for pastors that are already trying to shepherd their church and teach and lead. But to dive into a topic that really none of us have ever been equipped to study, that feels really exhausting. So I get that from the front. I've been even tell to study. That feels really exhausting. So I get that from the front. I've been even tell me that how hard it is. But I have found to at least get minimally educated.

Michael: 19:43

You know that book by Bob Altemeier that I mentioned. You can Google his name and I think it's even free as an online download. Another book Brian McLaren wrote a book called the Second Pandemic and authoritarianism in your, your Future and that's a real cheap or I don't know if it's free or real cheap on his website, but I found that just a real good summary. That was helpful to me in understanding some things, because he pointed out even some things like that. Authoritarian leaders are characterized by the first thing we talked about already fear. They know how to use fear for their own ends or create divisions with an in-group and an out-group. So if you see a leader doing that and almost like creating people pointing fingers that those people are in the out-group, definitely ridiculing them. Well, we might not see that in the church quite as much you do to a certain extent, but we definitely see that in the political realm Name-calling, finger-pointing, really unkind comments being said. So look for things like that.

Michael: 20:43

Distorting or distracting from the truth is another characteristic. That's very common Intentional misinformation, if you sense a leader is giving information but your gut is saying really I'm not sure if that's true, or maybe you fact check it, because we can all do that pretty quickly now by uh, you know, just our phones right in our lap. We might be listening to someone and we can fact check that pretty quickly. Or the suppression of dissent is another characteristic. Um, if someone questions their behavior, that leader's behavior an authoritarian leader doesn't want to be questioned, so they're going to try to put down that dissent. There's not an ability for people to have different opinions in that environment.

Michael: 21:28

But I think the church is a place where people from all kinds of opinions can come and share. Again, polarization makes everything about either or it's either this way or that way, and this way is right, or you, which is usually our way, and that way is wrong, which is their way, so you better choose our way. But it's not about either or it's about both end, and I think looking at the gospel you realize, kind of like you were saying earlier, margie, the gospel is a more of a both end gospel, where it's not about exclusivity or exclusion. It literally is about Jesus, who was inclusive of everyone. I mean, that's my favorite definition for the kingdom of God, it's the availability for all people, that heaven's available for everyone, and I think that's a beautiful way to be able to look at it and to understand the gospel.

Michael: 22:21

I think if you go look in Mark 1 15, you'll see Jesus describing the gospel as the availability of the kingdom of God for everyone. Well, to me that's a very inclusive thing. So, just by its very nature, polarization excludes and chooses a side and creates fear and distorts truth and creates division and calls names and oh right, that's a problem of discipleship. You did say it well, we are incredibly immature. Another way would be our formation, our spiritual formation, or what I like to call our holistic formation, is badly lacking and we really need to address it at that level.

Margie: 23:00

Sure, and as you were going down your list of many things there, I was wondering this looks like a list of how to know you're in a cult. And then I wondered, as you're speaking, I'm wondering is this like narcissism too thrown in? And definitely it's a big stew and you just stir it all up and it just doesn't make anything.

Michael: 23:26

Yeah, I would say not every narcissistic leader is an authoritarian leader, but probably most authoritarian leaders are narcissistic leaders, if I were to say it kind of in one way that I see so and there's some good books that have been written on that. Um, I help churches that have either had to recover from leaders with degrees of narcissism or whatever the case. So you can actually google that. Chuck de gro's written a really good book on that. Poles is an author also who has written a good book on that subject, on narcissistic pastors. So if you sense any of that, if you're well one, if you are a leader, first we got to take the log out of our own eyes. I've had to do this many times and look for my own narcissism right, my own tendency to use other people for my own ends in order to validate myself, and and, and sometimes we were trained to do that. I know I was trained to be a narcissistic leader, so it really starts with us.

Margie: 24:28

You were trained you think you were trained to be in a.

Michael: 24:30

I was trained Not. Yeah, not consciously. Yeah, I didn't take narcissism one-on-one.

Michael: 24:37

I would just say in my early years of leadership development and in seminary, as well as just even the church that I was a part of, so many leaders were very highly narcissistic and the way they trained young leaders and the way they trained young leaders, I think, drew out those things in them, including me. And I didn't know that until I left that church and then was in my first full-time ministry experience and then crashed and burned in eight months of clinical depression, which I think is a story I told when I was on your podcast before, so people can go back and listen to that podcast if they're interested in hearing that story. But that caused me to realize my own narcissism. So I think, like Jesus said, take the log out of your own eye. We have to start with ourselves. Become more self-aware, be reflective to see. Am I creating some of the polarization? Am I causing some of these problems? So leaders need to do that definitely and to watch others in the church that have influence that might do that. That helps us be good shepherds, because I think we have more people potentially in our churches creating polarization as well.

Michael: 25:44

But then the other level obviously is just those sitting in the pew, if you will, the lay people of the church, those that attend, for you, if you're one of those folks, to be highly aware of the leaders that you submit yourselves to and that you realize that there are a lot, a lot of leaders in the Christian church with high degrees of narcissism, and it's a sad reality, but the statistics have shown it to be true.Michael: 26:10

It's why we have a lot of division in churches and a lot of problems. It's one of the things I've committed my ministry to doing is helping churches get healthy and recover from things like that, and it's sad but it's true. It's part of the human condition and so knowing what to do about it is extremely important. But I do think so. I'm glad you brought it up because, yeah, the narcissistic element in leadership definitely contributes to polarization and what happens there, and it doesn't mean they might not grow a great church, because I think some of the biggest churches in existence have been grown that way by highly narcissistic leaders, and that's true of companies as well. Narcissistic leaders make great leaders to grow things big, but I don't think they're leading in the way of Jesus and they leave a wake behind them.

Margie: 27:00

And bigger isn't always better.

Michael: 27:10

No, no, I know that flies in the face of a lot in North America right, right, right, especially Texas.

Margie: 27:12

No, you know I'm not. You know I'm the state of Texas here. But I think what was sad for me, having served in the ranks of the United Methodist Church, is I had a congregation that was mixed. I had people that would come to me and we'd have conversation and I could tell from their conversation that they perceived that I was well safe to talk to and they were more conservative leaning. And then I would have people come to me who are more liberal leaning and I they felt very comfortable and safe to talk to me and they could they assume that I was more liberal, leading too, you know. And I thought, well, isn't this kind of interesting here that they don't seem to know for sure? And that was by design on my part, because I'm pastor over everybody that was there and I was busy banging the discipleship drum.

Margie: 28:14

This is what it was to be a disciple was busy banging the discipleship drum.Margie: 28:18

This is what it was to be a disciple.Margie: 28:20

The sad thing is was that I knew there was coming a moment when you would have to pick a side, a or B, and I was incredibly sad for the congregations that were mixed, that they were going to be the ones that would struggle the most, and sad because they had figured out how to do life together and it was okay.Margie: 28:42

You know, and I thought I'm sure Jesus is crying in a corner somewhere. You know, over things like that, over how we kind of stumble over ourselves and undermine and and all that kind of thing. I know for me ourselves and undermine and all that kind of thing. I know for me, now that I'm not in pastoral ministry, I'm pretty picky about the kind of leader that I want to let have influence over me and I've been blessed that I've been in places where there is an aspect of humility that is not flashed around like it's a badge of honor or something, but just very subtly. You can just pick up that there, that this is a person that has gotten understanding of humility and and kind of naturally exudes it.

Michael: 29:33

Right.

Margie: 29:34

But again, you know we don't see that in the political realm Right anywhere and I understand you do have to have a bit of an ego to say that I'm going to stand up here and say stuff to all y'all. There is that piece of it, but at the same token, as leaders who are following after God's purposes. There still has to be that understanding that I'm up here over all y'all, but I am under the influence of the Lord, God most high.

Michael: 30:08

Right, right.

Margie: 30:10

Oh, that's. That's an ideal, maybe, I don't know.

Michael: 30:15

Yeah, yeah, no, it's so true, I mean, and we see it so clearly in the political realm as you were talking. It just made me think. You know, in our country we're really poor at choosing something that's in the middle. We're better at going oh, I don't like this way. We've been governed for four years or eight years or whatever. So I'm going to swing to the other side, or let's bring in that kind of leader, and then we go back and forth from pole to pole. Right, there's very little in the middle, we don't have a strong third party government, and so that's the way our political system just works, and that's why it's just so extreme in the way that goes back and forth, rather than trying to find a more moderate approach to many of the issues. That would be much healthier if we were able to find that happy middle. But in churches I think church leaders can definitely make that choice we can seek what's sometimes being called now the courageous middle, right? Because if there are poles and we've seen stream polarization what does it look like to find the courageous middle and live in that space, rather than being either or, like I said earlier, for it to be both and, and that's challenging. It definitely has its challenges, but I think it is such a good goal to be able to look and see how to, rather than choosing an extreme view on this or that.

Michael: 31:39

How can I actually talk about all sides in a way that shows where the wisdom really lies and maybe what God's wisdom is in that, or allow people then to have the freedom to choose what their leaning might be and then to help people coexist together with some different views? I even find it funny that churches you know have such a strong or long doctrinal statement. Right, here's our belief statement, doctrinal statement, and they post that on the website. It's often one of their first pages on their website and I thought you know I'm not sure how healthy that is, because what that says is then, unless you believe every you know jot and tittle of this doctrinal statement, you're not welcome here.

Michael: 32:25

Do you really want to say that some churches do?

Michael: 32:27

I get it, but how different could it be if you just simplified it down to something like the teaching of Jesus and the apostles? Or you know that we believe that the kingdom of God is a very broad and inclusive space, like I was talking about earlier, when Jesus defines the gospel in Mark 1 and 15. What if we were to say that and then allow differences to coexist without contention, so that people don't call each other names, raka, like human or whatever right? But we tried to cultivate a spirit of openness, humility, listening, you know, a good active listening, question, asking, sitting with attention, being able to have discussion, learn from each other. One phrase I've seen used more recently now by some churches that are trying to do this is a third way, that, rather than it having to be that way or that way, we're going to identify as a third way space that realizes we're going to have people on that side and we're going to have people on that side, and I think that's a really good way to look at it.

Margie: 33:32

So yeah, or we could just call it via media.

Michael: 33:36

Yeah, the via media right.

Margie: 33:38

They did that in England right when they couldn't say Catholic or Protestant. Let's have a middle way here.

Michael: 33:43

And.

Margie: 33:44

I think that's the history of the Church of England maybe. Yeah, yeah, I don't know where that's looking at you know, I'm sure this is a heretical discussion somewhere.

Michael: 33:54

I'm sure it is.

Margie: 33:56

Somebody's going to say well, this is heretical, but I just, you know, after you spend a lot of time, you don't even have to spend a lot, because I don't spend a lot of time just snippets here and there on social media. I just think, oh, come on people, can't we do a little better than this? And I don't know whether they think that people think that they're talking to a homogeneous group or because nobody's mind has changed on social media, really.Margie: 34:25

Yeah know, I don't I don't know anybody that says this mean change my life even though that's a big thing to say in the culture.Michael: 34:33

This is changing life, you know right seriously.Margie: 34:36

Your dish soap change your life I know we're going to be a telling culture, right?Michael: 34:40

we have opinions and we want to tell others our opinions. And pastors often ask me, or the leaders I coach, like, how do I approach this? And probably the thing I say more than any other is learn to ask good questions, and that's what we, as coaches, learn, right, you learn to ask good questions. So I think all leaders, all pastors, need to learn to become question askers. So if you want a place to start, rather than feel like you have to create your own opinion on everything or study every issue or come across authoritatively on whatever the case would be, learn to ask questions. We have a good example of that in Jesus, right?

Michael: 35:17

Jesus, when asked questions, would often respond with another question, or he was just the master question asker, and yet we don't pay much attention to that. Maybe we all need to get into our Bibles and do a study on the way Jesus asked questions, why he asked them that way and the results that came out as a result. So if we were to start somewhere, I think, to ease polarization, learn to ask good questions that help people sit in the tension and not feel like they have to exert their opinion in a way that edges other people out so that they're only around people that agree with them. That's just not what community is. Right henry now, and used to say that community is the place where the person that you least want to live with always lives. That means there's disagreement, there's tension, it's messy right and, pastors, we need to cultivate that with each other.

Margie: 36:12

Yeah, I know, and in my last church I served in the new, and that was before I was trained as a coach, but I was before. I was a newspaper reporter and some of the marketing and PR work required me to ask questions of people I was interviewing. So I had to ask the right kind of questions to get them talking, to get information, to understand better. So that was part of what I was packaged with already. So they knew that if they came to me with something, I it was going to be a really why do you think that? Tell me more about this or that. I mean, I was always and, and look what I'm doing now and now it is. You know, I coaching is a great outlet for that and it and it's a helpful and useful tool. It's good to be curious about other people and why they think the way they do, because there's usually something that's usually kind of an interesting story besides yes right people are kind of interesting.

Margie: 37:12

Well, I'm going to leave us here and just you know, I think this is the kind of podcast that you just listen to maybe a few times share with a friend, and just kind of listen to maybe a few times share with a friend and just kind of mull over where you think Jesus might fit. And I'm not saying Jesus fits, and everything comes out of my mouth and no way would I say that.

Margie: 37:32

There are some days I tell you, don't even follow me to the grocery store you so you know, I mean take a moment and just kind of chew on the ideas and think about it and see what God says. Thanks so much for this conversation, michael, and I'm sure we'll have you back on again.

Michael: 37:56

You're welcome. Thanks, Margie.

Margie: 38:02

So how do the pieces of your life fit together? Do they fit together well and things are humming along just fine, or are there some pieces that are tight or absent or just not fitting the bill? This is your invitation to join me in my glass workshop for a video series, where I am going to do a stained glass project while I talk to you about sustainability and building sustainability into your heart and into your life. So I am going to be doing my art, which is a form of self-care, and I'm going to invite you into that space with me and I'm going to chat. I'm going to chat about self-care and I'm going to show you how I create, and there's a nifty, nifty analogy Stained glass seems to be a very good metaphor for what I want to talk about. So I'd love for you to join me. To do that, to opt in, I'll need you to email me at crabbypastor at gmailcom. That's crabbypastor at gmailcom. So you won't want to miss this. So you won't want to miss this. You definitely won't want to miss this. So make a plan to join me in the glass workshop.

Margie: 39:46

Are you wondering whether your fatigue, your lack of motivation, your lack of interest is burnout? Maybe? I just wanted to let you know that I have a resource on the website, margiebryce dot com that's B-R-Y-C-E MargieBryce dot com and it is a burnout questionnaire free for you to download, and kind of self-assess and get a sense of where you're at. There are questions that not only ask about what you're going through but maybe how often you're experiencing it and that's kind of a key to where you might be, because you have to know where you are in order to chart a course forward. And most pastors who experience pastors and ministry leaders who experience burnout rarely know that that's where they're at until they're well into it. And if you're unsure about that little statistic, so far, everybody that I've interviewed on this podcast who has experienced burnout, when I ask that kind of question, they're like, yeah, I didn't know that's where I was at. So again, go to MargieBryce dot com it's on the homepage of the website and you can get your burnout questionnaire and kind of see where you're at.

Margie: 41:07

Hey friends, the Crabby Pastor podcast is sponsored by Bryce Art Glass and you can find that on Facebook. I make stained glass as part of my self-care and also by Bryce Coaching, where I coach ministry leaders and business leaders, and so the funds that I generate from coaching and from making stained glass is what is supporting this podcast and I will have opportunities for you to be a part of sponsoring me and, as always, you can do the buy me a cup of coffee thing in the show notes. But I will have some other ways that you can be a part of getting the word out about the importance of healthy self-care for ministry leaders. So I'm here to help. I stepped back from past honor and, in all things, make sure you connect to these sustainability practices you know, so that you don't become the Crabby Pastor. Thank you.

View Details

Both men and women will benefit from this discussion on how women leaders in ministry navigate the unique challenges of self-doubt and cultural barriers. Join us as Margie Bryce and our special guest Janyne McConnaughey uncover the intricacies of imposter syndrome and self-limiting narratives that often plague women in leadership. With a rich background in both supportive and restrictive church environments, Janyne sheds light on the critical need for male leaders to foster inclusive spaces and the invaluable role of self-awareness and self-compassion.We are talking about sustainability in ministry leadership. Margie opens up about her own experience stepping back from pastoral duties to champion sustainable practices that prevent burnout. With her passion for self-care strategies, Margie offers practical advice and resources to help leaders maintain their well-being and fulfill God's plans without becoming overwhelmed. This episode is a heartfelt conversation that champions vulnerability, resilience, and a commitment to personal growth.

Support the Show.

🦀 🦀 🦀

Find regular support on my Facebook group by clicking HERE.Connect with me about COACHING and Workshops on self-care HERE.

TranscriptMargie: 0:01

Margie: 0:32

This\This is Margie Bryce with the Crabby Pastor Podcast. Are you crabby today? I always like to ask people why they're crabby. So not why are you crabby right now? But what are the things that make you crabby? Because life is challenging enough. Hay, who is just amazing to chat with. I love having our conversations because you bring different things to the forefront and help us in our thinking, but we're still talking somewhat about self-care and the stories that we tell ourselves. I think that goes in with, uh, imposter syndrome too, don't you think?

Janyne: 1:24

It does, it does and uh, probably with women or the most, not that men are absent from it, but it's different, it looks different. We're the queens of syndrome.

Margie: 1:40

How is that? You know? Or you know, because I've asked myself questions before what makes me think I can do fill in the blank, especially in terms of ministry. I mean, I know for me, when I just accepted my call, I just, I don't know. I have catholic roots I don't know if you knew that or not about me, but catholic roots, so you know, when god calls, know there's angels in the background going and all that. And so you just, I just plotted along and as I got into the thick of it it was much more challenging to navigate than what I anticipated.

Margie: 2:16

Like I think in our last episode you said something about how light, how we think life is going to be, and it's always this beautiful upward trajectory with flowers and lollipops everywhere, and then we get on it and it's more like a wacky ride on a roller coaster. And for leaders, especially our sense of self-care. And we talked last episode about our ability to think, about our thinking. Why do we think like that? You know, that is a key component of self-awareness and it is a factor that arises when you're talking about things like self-talk and the kind of stories that we tell ourselves about who we are, and our abilities, our giftedness Any of that resonate with you, Janyne.

Janyne: 3:10

Yes, and as you were talking, I was thinking about the fact that my story is kind of unique in as far as a woman leader, in that I began my dad was a pastor in a denomination, a Wesleyan denomination, that ordained women and had women church board members and and, and some of the, some of the women that I was acquainted with growing up were just strong women leaders with growing up were just strong women leaders Just like, yes, take charge and get it done, and compassionate and hardworking, but strong. And after I graduated from college, I took a job in a church that was a self-proclaimed fundamentalist church. Okay, I, I had no idea, I had absolutely no idea that that a world where women's, my very strong leadership skills, would not be appreciated and it didn't really go well, let's just put it that way.

Margie: 4:26

Well, that's probably the nicest thing you had to say about that just didn't go well did not go well and I I was.

Janyne: 4:40

I I was fired two jobs in a row. No, there, there was a job in the middle in a Brethren church. It was lovely, lovely experience and so anyway. So when I talk about the role of women, I almost feel, I feel like I have those two very different viewpoints inside of me, and so it's hard for me to. I deeply sympathize with those who live in church cultures that have very prescribed ways that women can express their leadership, if at all. And then I have this other side of me that was very, very strong and went to a college that was very strong in developing women as leaders. And so I just want to say that before we go into this, because sometimes I say things that seem like I'm saying two different things, but they come out of two different parts of my life Because it depends on what the question is.

Margie: 5:51

That's fine and, as you were talking about that, you know, I've been aware of those situations. I've been in congregations and certainly if you have a Catholic upbringing, the opportunities for women are none. But that's spelled N-U-N. I mean. I guess there's other things. Some churches would allow a lector you know, a female lector, others would not, you know. So that is an environment in which the story has been pre-written for you.

Margie: 6:24

Yes, Right, yes, this is what I'm thinking about as you're talking. I thought, isn't that amazing then to encounter places where the story is not just this is a story that you're writing and don't think even about anything else, even if you're competent and able to live a different story. But we still can, even in those environments that allow for space for a broader story, even in those environments, we can be our own worst enemy as women, be our own worst enemy as women. And I have to say here too, before we go too much further with this, that, guys, if you're listening, this is worthwhile for you to hear and to know and to understand, especially as you are giving space in your life for women leaders and you're inviting them to sit at the table of leadership. It's important to understand this. So but yes, we can undermine ourselves.

Janyne: 7:32

Right, and I appreciate you saying that, because men stay with us. Right, because we what women can offer in a church, and I've learned to navigate how to be a leader in a, in a, in a culture that did not did not allow me to be the leader that I could have been. I learned to navigate that and to make an impact that I could have been. I learned to navigate that and to make an impact and, and I want I want to say that it wasn't like I just went and curled up in a corner. I was definitely a leader there, but I had parameters that I had to live by

.Janyne: 8:16

But but, but no matter what you're, no matter what you believe about the ordination or not ordaining women within a church, then is it about women or is it about women in leadership, right? So I think that they miss so much of what women could bring to the table and the viewpoints that they could bring to the table if they were allowed to sit at the table. And so find a way, in whatever theological, whatever doctrinal, whatever, doesn't matter to me Find a way to listen to women, and staying here with us is one of those ways. Sure, so no pressure.

Margie: 9:08

But pressure, I know. So why do we think that women seem to be better at the negative self-talk? And especially? You know, if you do enough of the negative self-talk over time, you're a writer you're taking all these sentences or paragraphs about your negative self and then you knit it all together and it does become the story that you tell yourself about yourself. And I know, for me I sometimes, when things haven't gone the way I had hoped I can, you know, what do I think I'm doing? And you know what? What kind of story do I want to really live into? I have to stop myself literally and and really say whoa so I'm going to tell a story right here.

Janyne: 10:04

I was having a conversation with my brothers last week and we were talking about we have conversations about growing up and we're like 10 years apart, five years apart, and and I was the youngest and they were the two older boys and and our perspectives of our, our life as children are very there's some things that we, you know, they're very supportive of me, they agree completely, but there's things that they're like wow, we didn't see it that way, Right. And so I think that sometimes when I storytell, then I lose my train of thought.

Margie: 10:41

No, no, you're good. You're right that several people in the same family can encounter the same trauma, but the impact of that trauma can be very different, very very different. So that's fair game.Janyne: 10:58

And when we talk about women? Okay, let's say, you put a woman, a woman and a man in a room and they both make the same mistake. Okay, the man's gonna get a pass on the mistake he just made and the women is unlikely to get a pass on the mistake she just made.Margie: 11:20

Okay, just the way that. Is that always the case?

Janyne: 11:27

Do you think? I think that when it comes to leadership, I'm not talking about morals, I'm not talking about we're talking about just women in leadership roles. Okay, that that it is. It is much easier for for the man to make the mistake, and a lot of times when the woman is makes a mistake, she's seen as well. You really probably shouldn't have been in a leadership role because you're a woman and you're too emotional, you know all of those things right, Whereas a man who say, well, you know what, you were being a strong leader and you made a decision and you went with it.

Janyne: 12:03

And that's more important, right, that it is like. All of the research will show you that how that is viewed by, by, by men and women. Okay, that that it's much harder. And so when you, when you are put in situation after situation after situation like that, then you eventually come to believe that you, you are the problem, and that's where the negative self-talk comes from. And so I mean, I would get, I, I would.J

anyne: 12:37

I was kid that every teacher was they love me, but, oh, my goodness, she's a challenge, okay and so, but I would, I would get in trouble for things that the boys didn't get in trouble for, right, it was just really, it was just different. And so I think that we, when we talk about we talked about in the last part that that, what we have, what happens to us as children and what happens to us, I think that that that it's easier in the, in the process of growing up, to see being a woman as its own form of negativity, as it's, you know, too emotional, to, to, to, to, to you know, yeah, and then if you do step into some roles, you know you're, you're too, too, too.

Janyne: 13:38

Right, and so you're always trying, you're always bucking up against that, and you come to accept that as your own narrative. And and and once again, you know, whenever we talk in generalities, it doesn't apply to everyone. I posted something the other day and three people say well, that wasn't my experience. I'm like oh, you're so blessed.

Margie: 14:03

Yeah, yeah, well, it is, that's wonderful, that's wonderful, yeah, that's true, that's true. But you know, I mean we all, I think write stories about ourselves. It is definitely connected to our past experience that you know things that you have encountered. It all comes to be a part of who you are and you do function out of that. It's a matter, too, then, of learning to discern when you're heading down that merry path that I mean. But we have to be careful, because I came to this conclusion one day is that I can't be that little yapping piece of clay at God saying to God you made me incorrectly. You know I should have been crafted as a guy. You know, I mean, I was made to be female and I have to step into that and live into that. And then you know, because all, even the guys in ministry, everybody, everybody, let me say it this way Everybody has something that they have to push through and persevere through in ministry, all of us have baggage, all of us have something, and it just so happens that that, you know, women have their own category. You know that they have to say I am, I am called by god, and I need to just stand firm in that, and what the rest of all y'all do with. That is your issue. It's done. You know, I don't know. You know, because it's tricky. It's tricky.

Margie: 15:52

I have on my husband's side of the family, the family I married into, there was there's a faction that is wesleyan. They would acknowledge women's gifts and abilities in ministry. And then there was a faction where, no, you are an abomination and you know, what do you think you're doing? So I know I would go hide behind the Wesleyan people at the family reunions because I was basically a wuss, I guess. I just so you know, I mean. But then you have to say to yourself look, I'm somebody who was called by God.

Margie: 16:35

Now the story for me does get better. I mean, this is it was kind of sad because it has to do with funerals, but my father-in-law and then his older brother passed within six weeks of each other. And when my father-in-law and then his older brother passed within six weeks of each other, and when my father-in-law passed, I was asked to participate in the funeral and I thought, okay, you know, because, all right, I'm going to be up front, I'm going to be doing that, and I did. And it must have been acceptable, because six weeks later I was asked to participate in my uncle's funeral, who was basically not having that and not down with women doing that. Fortunately, I had served in a parachurch ministry and was known in my community and connected with that, and the pastor at his church was not down with women doing that.

Margie: 17:30

He was gracious to me when I came in the door and I just said I'm going to go just sit up on the front row. You let me know when you want me to come up. And they wanted me to read some scripture and solicit for people to share. You know that was my role. And I said now I'll do that. And he said no, no, no, you're going to process in with us. And the casket, he said. And then you're sitting on the platform, you know. And I just said oh, all righty.

Margie: 17:59

So all of this happens, I'm sitting on the platform, I'm going to get up and read scripture in this church, and it was it stated in the, in the little handout for everyone, that I was Reverend Dr Margie Bryce, which I thought, oh my gosh, look at this. And I got up front and I'll never forget, just standing there for just a moment and looking out over all of these people and I thought, truly, god, you can place my little feet anywhere you so choose, can't you? And I kind of chuckled to myself in the irony of the moment that was there. It was really really kind of interesting. So that's a story. My spiritual director when I shared it with her, you know I thought she was going to come out of her chair when I shared it and she said you know, that is an important God thing to remember and reflect on. Especially now is where I'm going to shift back to, especially as you seek to tell your stories to yourself.

Janyne: 19:09

Right, well, okay, so let me give my version of that, okay, Okay, because I'm listening to you and I'm like, oh my gosh, yes, and and the. The story I'm going to tell is very different. It shows how our path with God is such an individual thing. So I had taught at Bible colleges for 33 years when I ended out going and beginning therapy and healing and I resigned from my position as part of that and I said I told my therapist my life is over. You know my career, you know I I'd worked, I'd worked to achieve a high level of professionalism. I it's over and that's a story to tell yourself right yeah.

Janyne: 20:01

It's over, you know, and she said. She said, janine, I know you can't see your future right now, but but it's out there and I'll hold it for you until you get there, Okay.Margie: 20:14

Oh, that was such a sweet thing to say, isn't that amazing?

Janyne: 20:18

And she is out here with me tracking what I'm doing and we laugh about that a lot. Remember when you sat there and you said, okay, so there I am with my story and believing that my life is over. And then five years, five years past that point, I have. I've been teaching in the, a master's program for neuroscience and trauma. I've done I don't know how many podcasts and speaking. It's like up in the 70s probably. That I've done. I've been president.

Janyne: 20:54

I just finished my fifth year as a board member for the Attachment and Trauma Network and I thought when I went outside of the church that I would never be accepted because of my background in the Bible college professor. You know, bible college professor goes out into the world and you know how is that going to work. And so when I, two years ago, I was president of the board and I got up to greet everyone as president of the board and I looked out over the conference, we were in person and I looked out at all the people and I had that moment that you had standing there where I said, I said God is not limited by my narrative about myself, because the same thing that those doors will all be closed to me because of my you know Bible college professor background at a small college right and and God is not limited by the narratives that we tell ourselves is exact.

Margie: 22:07

It kind of gives me chills to hear our two stories and have that moment right, I know I know and and those are the those are the moments that we need to sew into ourselves, even if you're allergic to needle and thread, like I am. But we need to throw those into ourselves and really reflect on those. I remember early on in my Christian walk-on I had some amazing discipleship, a gal that just walked with me and she would all the time talk about I can do all things through Christ, who strengthens me, and that it is God that gives us our gifts and abilities to use and to move forward in that. But then there are the days that we allow our you know, our past to just kind of come bubbling up and and overtake the moment. And we need to just get better at recognizing that and recognizing our thinking about that and then not wanting to weave that into our story all the time.

Margie: 23:21

But you know, poor me is a good one, that one you know I feel like the victim. A lot you know about this or that and I just I go, oh, that's, that's really not who I want to be. And the same thing with being just at times feeling like I'm this tragic little figure and there's a weird little narrative, and then saying that's not who I want to be and I don't think God made me to be that exactly so learning to shift and and be aware that that that we're doing harm to ourselves right

Janyne: 23:59

Well, you know, I just want to say this is really kind of an interesting I'm going to be really vulnerable right here.

Janyne: 24:04

Okay, because, because this wasn't what we were originally going to talk and we kind of went off and did the second part, and I'm sitting here going, oh my gosh, this was for me, okay.

Janyne: 24:16

And so so I'm sitting here and I'm realizing, because because I I had to step back this year, I had to, I had to set down everything in order to heal and just whole other layers of trauma that that I was not even aware of in some cases and was not aware of the impact on me

.Janyne: 24:39

And so so I, I I've set down so many things and, like I said in the first, that this is the first podcast back after taking this long hiatus, and I and I realizing that I I'm, because of age and because of the long-term impact of trauma, in some ways I am limited going forward in what I can do, but but that does not affect what God has planned for me now that I've worked through all that healing, right. So I've kind of gone back. I realized, as I was telling my own narrative, I went, oh my gosh, I mean, you're sitting on that couch again, thinking it's over right, and I'm just going to sit on my back porch and not that I'm not happy there. I love my chickens and they make me laugh and I just sit and watch and the birds come and I just I absolutely love my life here where I am, but it doesn't mean that that the next part of my life isn't less important than the part that I just completed.

Janyne: 25:45

They're they're going to look very different from each other, but they're just as important and more focused on my writing than what the last five years, even though I published four books how can I say I wasn't focused on my writing? It's just different, in a different way. And so I do think that those narratives that get embedded in us and I wonder if, when I moved, after I had lived somewhere for 10 years as a little girl and suddenly was uprooted, all of my support systems, all of my friends, all of everything my church, my community, everything I lost and then I just got deposited somewhere else If that narrative didn't begin there, then my life is over. When changes happen, my life is over, yeah.

Janyne: 26:35

Right. Then I'm just like, oh my gosh, that's what I'm doing again. That narrative is so deep within me that I don't see it as a pivot, I see it as an end, and that's what. That's what narratives do to us is they get stuck because of what has happened to us as as children or as adults, and then and then we get stuck in that same narrative again of believing that it's over, or we can't do that or that, not possible. And so thank you, thank you for continuing, now that I've had, I've had my own little therapy set.

Margie: 27:14

I know having epiphanies on the on the crabby pastor podcast by golly, that's pretty funny, it is, it is. So, yeah, I don't know. Now I'm sitting here wondering if I shouldn't rename the podcast, because what was I thinking? What kind of story is this Crabby bastard? I don't know. Well, I want to thank you so much for being on here again and for sharing, and our hope is that, at the end of the day, that you're going to be really looking at the story that you're telling yourself about yourself and asking yourself what story is God writing? And am I trying to swipe the pencil all the time? What kind of story are you? And if you're not sure about what story God is writing, I guess I'm going to push a little further and say are you at peace with letting God hold the blueprint as you walk with God through this era?

Janyne: 28:19

Yeah, because it's going to be so much better than you expected. Hard times, difficult times, absolutely, but it'll take you to a place you never expected to be. And I want to say this is really funny but what I talked about about metacognition in the first yeah, you just wanted to say that again. I wanted to say metacognition again. I love that word. Okay, just what I just did set demonstrated what I tried to explain in the first one. That was being being curious, thinking about what I was thinking, and, and because of that, then I will not fall into that self-talk narrative again. So they both fit together, yeah.

Margie: 29:05

And this is totally unscripted besides. So, although I have a feeling that God had a hand for sure, what do you think? I don't know. Well, thank you so much for being on the podcast again, and I love having you here.

Janyne: 29:23

It's always a fun conversation. Yes, I love this. Thank you, thank you.

Margie: 29:31

So how do the pieces of your life fit together? Do they fit together well and things are humming along just fine, or are there some pieces that are tight or absent or just not fitting the bill. Absent or just not fitting the bill? This is your invitation to join me in my glass workshop for a video series, where I am going to do a stained glass project while I talk to you about sustainability and building sustainability into your heart and into your life. So I am going to be doing my art, which is a form of self-care, and I'm going to invite you into that space with me and I'm going to chat. I'm going to chat about self-care and I'm going to show you how I create. And there's a nifty, nifty analogy Stained glass seems to be a very good metaphor for what I want to talk about. So I'd love for you to join me. To do that, to opt in, I'll need you to email me at crabbypastor at gmailcom. That's crabbypastor at gmailcom. So you won't want to miss this dot com. So you won't want to miss this. You definitely won't want to miss this. So, so make a plan to join me in the glass workshop.

Margie: 30:58

Are you wondering whether your fatigue, your lack of motivation, your lack of interest, is burnout Maybe. I just wanted to let you know that I have a resource on the website, margiebricecom that's B-R-Y-C-E MargieBricecom, and it is a burnout questionnaire free for you to download, and kind of self-assess and get a sense of where you're at. There are questions that not only ask about what you're going through but maybe how often you're experiencing it, and that's kind of a key to where you might be, because you have to know where you are in order to chart a course forward. And most pastors who experience pastors and ministry leaders who experience burnout rarely know that that's where they're at until they're well into it. And if you're unsure about that little statistic, so far, everybody that I've interviewed on this podcast who has experienced burnout, when I asked that kind of question, they're like, yeah, I didn't know that's where I was at. So again, go to margiebricecom it's on the homepage of the website and you can get your burnout questionnaire and kind of see where you're at.

Margie: 32:36

Hey friends, the Krabby Pastor podcast is sponsored by Bryce Art Glass and you can find that on Facebook I make stained glass as part of my self-care and also by Bryce Coaching, where I coach ministry leaders and business leaders, and so the funds that I generate from coaching and from making stained glass is what is supporting this podcast, and I will have opportunities for you to be a part of sponsoring me and, as always, you can do the buy me a cup of coffee thing in the show notes. But I will have some other ways that you can be a part of getting the word out about the importance of healthy self-care for ministry leaders. Hey, thanks for listening. It is my deep desire and passion to champion issues of sustainability in ministry and for your life, so I'm here to help.

Margie: 33:47

I stepped back from pastoral ministry and I feel called to help ministry leaders create and cultivate sustainability in their lives so that they can go the distance with God and whatever plans that God has for you. I would love to help, I would consider it an honor and, in all things, make sure you connect to these sustainability practices you know, so that you don't become the Crabby Pastor. Thank you.

View Details

This was such a fun conversation with renowned trauma expert Janyne McConnaughey... who joins us in this episode to learn more about how internal dialogue matters... a lot! Janyne shares invaluable insights from her professional work and personal healing journey, emphasizing the power of positive self-talk and the concept of metacognition—thinking about our thinking. This episode is designed to inspire better self-care and mindfulness in perceiving and speaking to ourselves, providing practical strategies to foster a more supportive internal narrative.We also address the pervasive issue of negative self-talk, particularly in high-pressure environments like ministry. Reflecting on personal experiences, Janyne and I discuss how self-criticism can hinder performance and amplify the fear of judgment. We explore the importance of positive self-affirmation and the acceptance of imperfection (grace!), encouraging listeners to treat themselves with the same kindness they offer to friends. Tune in for an episode packed with resources and encouragement for sustainable self-care practices

Support the Show.

🦀 🦀 🦀

Find regular support on my Facebook group by clicking HERE.Connect with me about COACHING and Workshops on self-care HERE.

TranscriptMargie: 0:01

Margie: 1:19

And I am here today or Janine is here with us today, I guess is a better way to say that and we're going to talk about the way we talk to ourselves, or self-talk. I know I can be very guilty of that and at times I've realized that I've done it, and then I think that it's no big deal and I move on to something else. It's not a big deal at all and and I'm coming to a deeper understanding that does make a difference. It absolutely does make a difference. So I'm here with Janine McConaughey who has done a lot of trauma related stuff. That's a theological word, Janine, just so you know stuff. They taught me that in seminary.

Janyne: 2:12

It's the one thing I retain, no hopefully I retain they taught me in academics.

Margie: 2:18

I know. So, janine, introduce us again. I know you've been on the podcast before, but go ahead and introduce yourself and feel free to share with us the most recent things you're working on.

Janyne: 2:31

So, first of all, thank you for having me again. When the note came through, I was like, oh, I love conversations with Marty, so I'm happy to be here today and I really have taken a couple months to do some further healing and kind of step back from a lot of things, and this is actually my first podcast back into the game, and so we'll see how this goes today. But my latest endeavor is that I have a sub stack that I'm doing and it's a mixture of the work I do with survivors, the work I do with religious trauma, the work I do with trauma-based spiritual a and just the writing that I do. I wrote a book, hotel Candelabra and it's just a kind of an allegory, and so sometimes it's just my writing. So, anyway, so I am basically getting back into the game right now, but my sub stack is my favorite thing that I'm doing. As far as my work right now.

Margie: 3:46

Yes, I just read your, your entry. I think it was today. It was really it's interesting stuff because it just again with the stuff. I apologize, but it was just really interesting reading and it really kind of makes you think. And that that to me, even when I was in ministry, when somebody said to me, wow, pastor, you really made me think. I felt like I'd hit a home run. That was it for me. I'm not sure what that says about me, but I'm sure something. But anyway, I feel like that's a good thing because there needs to be more thinking. Today the thinking department sometimes seems to be underused in some cases.

Janyne: 4:31

That's interesting because my students you know, I taught at the college level for 33 years and my students would walk out of class and say your classes make my brain hurt. I go oh good, good, good, that means that you're thinking my brain hurt. I go oh good, good, good, that means that you're thinking. And so I generally take a different perspective than is expected and so, yeah. So, thank you for reading and, yeah, today's was interesting, so it's a whole. We're doing a whole. My husband and I together are doing a series on we Do Therapy and when two trauma kids married each other and all the lessons that we've learned. We celebrated our 45th anniversary last week and so, yeah, so that's one of the threads that will pick up again in September.

Margie: 5:21

Well, we want to talk about why self-talk is so important. You want to start us off and I'm sure we'll get rolling.

Janyne: 5:35

That question is so big.

Margie: 5:37

I know, I know. Did you ever know? I used to be a newspaper reporter.

Janyne: 5:44

Oh no, I didn't know that. Yeah, yeah, that's how I can ask respectable questions.

Janyne: 5:51

Well, it's a respectable question. So why is self-talk so important? And I think that everything that we do is affected by what we believe about ourselves. That we do is affected by what we believe about ourselves. And, of course, in my work that I do with trauma. You know, a traumatic event can happen, but trauma is actually the impact of what happens to us as a result of that traumatic event and our ability to find support and process it and get it out of our body and all those kinds of things. So when we talk about self-talk, then we are going to be limited in everything we do by what we believe about ourselves. And self-talk is basically what we believe about ourselves coming out as something verbal in our head and I thought about, I wanted, I wanted, I thought about metacognition. Okay, this is the educator I'm going to show up with cognition.

Janyne: 6:53

Okay, I love that word. I may say it again a couple times. Anyway, what it is is thinking about your thinking. So, it's your own thoughts and your own cognitive processes and and, and that is what you're supposed to do, and and so self-talk is a form of that. It's a form of thinking about your thinking. But if it's, if it's negative about yourself, then then you're not really reflecting on it.

Margie: 7:26

So let me just see if I'm getting this, making sure that I'm understanding. So if I say boy, I really stink at that, okay. And then you say to yourself wow, why did I say that about myself? That's thinking about your thinking. Yes, some people don't make it that far, though to the why am I saying that about myself?Janyne: 7:53

Right.

Janyne: 7:55

And so metacognition allows you to think about what you just said, because we always I don't know that there's a human being alive that, like you're in the middle of some

.Janyne: 8:08

I started going to the senior center and doing yoga, you know, and if there's any place that negative self-talk is going to show up for me, it's in yoga, because I haven't gone for a while and I'm like, why can't I do this? Right? So, by the way, really really healthy for me, it's the best self-care that I that I can possibly physically do, and so, but but then I need to stop and think well, why do I feel that way about myself? I said because I'm so concerned about what other people are thinking and I look around the room and everybody else is just focused on doing the, the pose, right, they're not looking at me, they can't, they can't look at me and do what they're doing, right. And so it takes that extra step, that metacognition, to realize why I'm saying those things about myself during yoga, right, and you're right, if you don't go there, then you, just you begin to believe what you said and you begin to be more and more negative about yourself and then you, it inhibits what you're able to do, and especially if we're talking about ministry, if you're constantly telling yourself you're terrible at it, then you're going to be terrible at it.

Margie: 9:19

Right. Isn't that funny? I mean because would we think it's egotistical to say I am an amazing pastor? Nobody is better than me. I mean, now we're wandering into egotistical a bit but I think it does impact your performance. I know for me, when I first got up to preach, I would just about break out in hives, my neck would get all red and whatever. And the more I did it and the more I stepped into it, I started doing better. But at one point what I said to myself is put your head up, your shoulders back and step into that thing that God has called you to do. I started saying that to myself as I walked up to the podium, up to the microphone and and then, um, it made a difference.

Janyne: 10:20

Yes, yes, because if you're sitting there waiting your turn and you're thinking, oh, am I going to say something stupid when I get up there, Inevitably you will say something stupid when you get up there.

Margie: 10:33

Well, that's not a comfort, is it? That's nothing.

Janyne: 10:39

I mean, you just are like no, you have to stop yourself to go. Why do I think that? I think that because of and you can go back and you usually your subconscious will take you to the exact incident that you just died with shame because of it, and you get stuck there and think it's going to happen again and again. But yeah, and sometimes I mean and then like what, what is your definition of doing something stupid, what every other human does? You know that you mess up your words or you say stuff right, like why did I in that podcast, why did I keep saying stuff?

Margie: 11:16

oh, thanks, now I'll be thinking about that.

Janyne: 11:20

There is no, you were already thinking about it.

Margie: 11:24

No, I was done. Thinking about it Really though, you know, feeling like you're a failure and saying that to yourself, feeling like you are worthless or I'm a bad pastor. I mean, I've said that in jest. I'm not serving actively in ministry right now, but when I did, at certain points I'd say man, I'm a bad pastor. You know, like they send you to the bad pastor the sin bin, like in hockey, or something Time out for you, but it does change your moment in a really interesting way, Do you think?

Janyne: 12:07

I think so, and when we say I am a human being who's doing the very best job that I can at being a pastor right now, and I'm not perfect, and it is okay not to be perfect, then it allows you the space to be a human being. I think that sometimes we just beat ourselves up for being human, right and not perfect, and not perfect and no one is and no one really expects anyone else to be either. I mean, if we're really honest, we rather like it when other people are human, because then we feel less pressure on ourselves to meet some standard that can never be met, to meet some standard that can never be met, and so, but I think, I think that it does, it does affect us, it affected when you would walk up having those thoughts in your head as, instead of thinking, you know what I know, I know what's important to say today and and I may not say it perfectly, but that's okay, because I don't have to be perfect and it's okay.Margie: 13:29

Yeah, yeah. And then tying that back into our identity in Christ and what we are called to do and to be about, and stepping in. I mean I think I'm pretty sure, I'm pretty sure that God knows we're not perfect.

Janyne: 13:47

What do?

Margie: 13:47

you think, but at the same time, at the same time, the stuff there I am again the stuff we say to ourselves about ourselves are things that typically we would not say to other people

.Janyne: 14:05

Oh, we wouldn't, we would never, we would not say those things to other people. I mean your best friend, even, right, you know, we mean, and I'm I'm looking across the way my best friend lives One of my best friends lives right next door to me, you know and so I'm looking across the way my best friend lives One of my best friends lives right next door to me, you know and so I'm looking over at it, into their yard, and I'm like I would stop her, right, if she was saying that. I would say wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. What are we? What are we saying? What are we saying here? And because it just hinders, it hinders relationships, it hinders everything. And but the thing is, is that you, you can't stop yourself

.Janyne: 14:46

I think that's an important point to make. Is that, is that we're huge? That's another part of being human. Is that, when something, when we do something, immediately shame starts to attack us and say well, you did that. There's just something horribly wrong with you and there's something you know you're never going to mount, you're going to, you're worthless, you're never going to. You know you're always going to make these mistakes, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. You know. And then shame sets in and the thing to do is to be like oh, I recognize you. Shame, I recognize you. I see you trying to take control of my life and make me believe things about myself that is not true, and then you can step back from it and say, no, what I believe about myself is again I'm an imperfect human who's doing the very best job that I can, especially in ministry. And I think you have to say that a lot, because you're never, you're never going to get it exactly right.

Margie: 15:50

And sometimes the sheep will tell you. Right right, the sheep bite sometimes right.

Janyne: 15:58

Like as an author, I get so little pushback. I mean, I've just been so blessed by that, I have amazing supporters and people who follow along with my writing and things. But but I I have to know that I won't always get it right. And somebody will ask me a question and sometimes it creates and I'm like, oh wow, I wonder why I said that in there and I realized that there's something that I need to go process and think about more, and then I'll usually come back and write something about that. Right, so it's actually actually it's a learning experience. If we can be curious about why we're saying the negative things toward ourself that we do the negative things toward ourself that we do, then we can be curious about where did that begin? Where did that particular feeling about myself begin? And it's curiosity that turns it into a learning experience instead of a negative experience.

Margie: 17:00

Well, that's pretty powerful stuff If you can stop yourself and do thinking about your thinking thing and then if you start to see a pattern of this, I think I'm starting to be on the lookout for it. You know saying, oh, I'm useless or what do I think, why do I think I'm great I guess imposter syndrome fits in here somehow as well If you get to the place where you just are questioning the legitimacy of your call, of your ability to serve. I think one of the podcasts that I get a lot of hits on is one called Am I Enough? That one seems to be pretty popular. That seems to be a question that you know, and no, none of us are enough for this task, and that's why we have to be relying on god, god's power, in our heart and in our lives and as we serve.

Janyne: 18:08

But for some reason that still doesn't turn off the ticket, you know I think that I don't push back a little right there, because I think that when God creates us, we are enough right. God doesn't create us and say, oh, I'm creating you is not enough, you're probably not You're not enough you never were, you never will be right. So I think, on one hand, I know that because we are human.

Janyne: 18:39

On one hand, I know that, because we are human, that we do need to depend on God walking with us and giving us wisdom and helping us to do the right thing, but that needs to be separated over here from who we were created to be, which I believe that you know and you can push back to me too. But I believe that we are created with the gifts and the talents and everything that we need to walk in partnership with God and do the important work that God is calling us to do. And so and I think that I think that that has been really important to me, especially because I spent so long not doing what God gifted me to do, so I did not publish my first book until I was 65. Even though, even though, in when I was working on my doctorate, they said you're, you're the best natural writer in the cohort. You, even though, when I did, I mean, self-studies at colleges are like, not interesting writing Right. And and they, they said the self-study team said this is the most enjoyable self-study we've ever read.

Janyne: 20:03

Then I I mean, and this was just repeated to me over and over again, and yet I didn't get it, because, because I didn't believe I could really be an author and it took me months of therapy and my therapist trying to get me to understand that, yes, this is your gift. So where did that begin? Right, because I was born with that ability. Yes, I honed it. Yes, I, you know, worked on it. Yes, I spent my whole life writing for other projects, etc. But I was born to be a writer and and I had everything I needed to do that.Margie: 20:46

But I didn't believe in myself and uh yeah yeah, oh there, and there was negative self-talk in that. You know, what do I think I'm doing? Why do I think I can do that? Or?

Janyne: 21:00

right clear. Up until the time I won two awards on Tarama and the Fuse, I was still doing that negative. Well, you know, people are buying it. Yeah, maybe I say some important things. And so the two awards that the book won. This is really funny. The two awards are very different from each other. One of them is is just, is more of a pure, pure writer, and the other one is how the book is constructed and how and so it. It really is the publisher side of it, and so you know, I mean I, I have to put the content in there. The publisher has to work with the content. But it's more of a combination. But by the time I'd won two awards, I was like, okay, I give up. God, yes, you created an author.

Margie: 21:43

All right, I'm good Then you were able to give that kind of self-talk to yourself. Right, I am a fill in the blanket, I know. Recently I went to some coaching development work out at a university, work out at a university and it was amazing stuff in that we were learning to identify when people say I am fill in the blank about themselves, and then as coaches that that is an important thing to listen for and then to follow up on or really say more about that or why, why do you say that about yourself? All of those kinds of things. So that's kind of not a point of Genesis, but it was a really re-emphasis of that self-talk piece

.Janyne: 22:38

Well, okay, so let's talk about a lot of the messages that we give out, give get in the church. You know the idea which, theologically, I completely agree with, disagree with. Disagree with that. We're worthless that we are. You know the whole exegesis of being wicked. I mean that you need to go do a whole study on that one and so forth.

Janyne: 23:06

But there's a there's a prevailing in some theological camps. There's a prevailing feeling that you are and I and I it. So part of that is theological. So I did my dissertation on the view of the child from innocence to non-innocence and I studied all of the theological trains that you know, all the way from back from Plato, aristotle, through all the major theologians, through all the denominations, and what their view of the child was, and it ranged from innocent to born sinful, completely sinful and wicked, and you can trace those all the way down and how the teaching methodologies and things are chosen as a result of that.

Janyne: 23:51

So I think we have to understand that theologically, you have to really dissect how that is affecting you and how that is playing into what you say about yourself, like the fear of pride, right, like that came up actually a little bit earlier and I was going to say something. You know not to be prideful. Well, there's a difference between owning what you're good at and being prideful about what you're good at. Okay, so if I'm prideful about being an author, then I'm. I'm going to go say you know, I'm a better author than anyone else.

Janyne: 24:30

I'm going to, you know, I'm going to say things like that If I just own being an author, I'm saying I was born to be an author. I'm, I'm gifted as a writer and I can just own that. And that isn't pride, that's just that's owning what I, the gift that I was given. Yeah, that's different self-talk there and that is.Margie: 24:52

That is definitely different self-talk, and I think scripture says we should not have a view that is too high of ourselves, but we also should not have a view that is too high of ourselves, but we also should not have a view that is too low. That is the Margie Gregg probably poor rendition of what Paul says not to think too highly or too lowly, but and that's true, you know, not thinking too lowly either ties in with what we're talking about in terms of how we speak to ourselves. I don't know, maybe we should go, look in the mirror and have to really face yourself when you're saying some of these things. I don't know if that would make it better, worse or make you think about what you're thinking about and saying about to yourself a little more.

Janyne: 25:41

It's interesting because I'm speaking at a conference this Saturday, one of the small church conferences, and I did a and anyone listening to this podcast. If you want a copy of this, I'll just email me and I'll give it to you. But I took the piece out of Trauma in the Pews, which is a trauma, informed spiritual practice and I talk about. I talk about self affirmation. So one of the things that I say is to walk up and stand in front of the mirror and say things to yourself in the mirror and that is the absolutely like positive statements to yourself in the mirror is one of the most difficult things. That for someone with a low image of themselves, for them to do and and it's and and that you're right.

Janyne: 26:32

The balance is not to be looking in the mirror and going you are just the best. Yeah, I know it's totally different thing, but just to look in the mirror and say you know, I am loved by God, I was created with gifts and talents for me to serve and make this world a better place, and I can work on those. And let me tell you when I say that I'm an author and that I'm a gifted author, I know I can give you the list of 10 things that I cannot do, that I can't do well, right. And the things that my editors catch me on every single time, right. So it's not that I'm a perfect author. I need editors and Grammarly. You know, nothing goes out without going through Grammarly, and so so there's just this balance that we have to find that right there in the sweet spot in the middle, wherever we accept both the things that were, that were created and gifted in, the things that well yeah, oh yeah, I'm gonna do that in everything.Janyne: 27:43

Oh my gosh, I did it again. And so um and I just, but I'm to the point where I just laugh at it, like how many times will it take before? And I do get better, you know, but if I start beating myself up about it, it doesn't do any good yeah, no, it doesn't.

Margie: 27:59

It doesn't, it is. It is strangely like you're being prophetic about yourself when you live in that negative space. And it says things in scripture like as a person thinks. So they are Right, I mean.Janyne: 28:20

I actually looked that up. You said that because right before I was sitting here and I'm like, oh, I'm going actually looked that up. That is so interesting. You said that because right before I was sitting here and I'm like, oh, I'm gonna look that up.

Janyne: 28:27

And what's so interesting about that is that that verse is about who we show to others and who we actually are like. Like, if you look at the whole context around that it's it's about someone who invites you to their party and then they say all sorts of good things about someone who invites you to their party and then they say all sorts of good things about you, but they're in their heart they're thinking something totally different, and that you should be cautious about just accepting all the nice things that they say, because they may not. So I have never, ever looked at the entire context around that verse and and so what I realized is that that we ourselves need to be. The flip side of that is that we need to be honest about who we are, and being honest doesn't, for some reason we think, being honest about ourselves mean we have to be negative about ourselves.

Margie: 29:21

Yeah, that sounds right. Yeah, if I'm honest with myself, I'm going to say this, this and this, and how I missed the mark, whatever it is. You know you do do that kind of thing. But I love that when scripture bears out our psychology. But think about this, everybody that pushes back on psychology and I got called on it once for I preached a sermon and it was using a sermon form that I had actually been taught at NTS by Dr Dan Boone you give the sociology of a situation and you give the psychology of a situation.Margie: 30:05

Then you bring in the theology. It's kind of an well, since when is why we do the things we do? Somehow out of God's purview or or out of theological discussion? And then you run into verses like, as a person thinks, so they are, you know, and even how the context works and everything. And I love it when the scripture uh, not validates psychology, but it certainly shows that God's aware of what we do, things we do and how we work. I mean, if God is the author and constructor of us, I think that that's probably something that's important

.Janyne: 31:07

You know, over the past couple couple years, polyvagal theory has become more prominent what is that?Margie: 31:17

just going for the biggest word used on the podcast I have done.

Janyne: 31:22

I have done metacognition and polyvagal theory. All right, okay, I can't can.

Margie: 31:29

See, there's my negative self-talk. I can't keep up

.Janyne: 31:34

And so that's kind of what I do is I go and I study all this and then I kind of distill it so I can distill polyvacal. And actually I have another freebie that I gave away at a conference, if anyone's interested in that one too. I did it during the pandemic about just breathe and okay. So when you, when you are having a really stressful day, and all of a sudden you sigh Like I'm the best sire in the whole world and and what I came to realize is that we have a nerve, that it's a multi, it's called the wandering nerve and it runs all throughout our body. It connects our brain to every part of our body and it has two parts. I'm really simplifying, like all my friends, like you made that a little too simple, janine, okay so. So it has two different parts and and you stay in balance by those parts either slowing down, being at rest all of that is controlled by this nerve in your body. So what I began to understand is that that kind of breath is how you, how your body, is trying to bring that nerve back into balance. Okay, so you, just you think about it and after you sigh really big like that, then you're kind of you feel like you can keep moving and do whatever.

Janyne: 33:01

I had a place where I where I would walk through the building and I actually have one of my sub stacks just on this, which does a much better job than I'm doing right now but when I would get ready to walk into the admin offices, I would sigh by the secretary there every time, and one day she stopped me. She said do you know, you sigh every time you walk by me and I'm like, oh my gosh, I don't know why I do that, but now I do Because I was trying to calm my nervous system. It's the autonomic nervous system. That is just how God created us. That is how God created us, and we have so many ways that we can. And actually the project I'm working on, which is Trauma and the Puce 2.0, is talking about how we can use the pause and how we can understand how our bodies work so that we calm ourselves instead of going into the negativity. And so, anyway, I don't know how I got on that, but well, you just wanted to say polyvagal, what?

Janyne: 34:15

polyvagal, what polyvagal theory? I know. So the. So the man, the researcher who introduced this to the world, um, I got to introduce him to a seminar one day, on the line and and before we were in the green room together and we talked about grandchildren and you know, and I was just like, and I was just like you know everything that I want to learn about this and it, you know, and I was just like, I was just like you know everything that I want to learn about this and it's so deep that I, you know, I can't. But then he was just a human being and he calmed me, right, just his very presence. And I mean I was supposed to be the person that was introducing him and he was calming me because I was in the room with him.

Janyne: 34:49

And I just think, I think about how our lack of understanding about our bodies and the ways that our body reacts to the world around us reacts to whether we feel safe emotionally or physically. Children in the classroom who do not feel safe cannot learn. We cannot interact well with other people unless we are able to help our body feel safe, and so the internal self-talk that we're talking about is many times a result of that, of our bodies being out of whack and not being able to find the pause and to calm ourselves, and so, and we can't live. I posted. I posted on Facebook, I don't know if you saw it. I posted this is how we want life to be, and there's this straight road that's just going straight off into the distance and it's just flat and smooth, right, and this is how life really is, and it was a roller coaster and I think, when you are under stress, when you neglect to slow down, to slow down, I think that is when my brain seems to fire a lot more negativity.

Janyne: 36:23

Yes, I don't know.

Margie: 36:23

And that's because you feel unsafe in your own body as soon as you emotionally or physically or in the situation you go toward the, the negative which is kind of built into us as a protective measure, and and um, when a lion might eat us and we feel right, right that, like I don't feel safe right here because there's lions around and there's and and um, the same reactions occur in our body even though we don't have lions roaming across our neighborhoods right now I mean, I'm thinking about pastors and I was contemplating this and how I'm going to roll this out, but allowing pastors to have conversation about leading people in this election cycle, you know, and Because a lot of people don't feel safe, you don't feel safe.

Margie: 37:17

Regardless, I'm not going to wax and wane political here at all, but I'm saying people are hearing this and that and this and that, and sometimes you don't know what to think and then you just don't feel safe. And then, as a leader in a faith community, how do you address that and how do you lead in the midst of that? And I'd like to be able to have conversation with ministry leaders about that, because it's very easy to go negative, especially when there's a lot of negative around.

Janyne: 37:52

Right, right, and, and I you know, so some days I'll be on Facebook. I do, I do research on Facebook. I'm just always watching seeing how people are reacting to those kinds of things, Cause that helps me as a writer. But anyway, sometimes somebody will post a meme and somebody else will post a meme, and I'm like like, wait a minute, they are on completely polar opposite sides of this whole thing we're dealing with, but they just posted the same thing to prove their point right

.Janyne: 38:20

The point actually is is that neither one of them feel safe, and and all of the all of the fear-mongering is making it worse, whether it's about this side or about this side. It is disrupting their ability to stay calm in their own bodies, and and then they go to the negative, and then they and and so, but it is. It's all about feeling safe in our own body, but if we respond to everything with negative self-talk, then we don't feel safe in our own head because we're being so, I mean okay, that's a really scary thought feeling safe in your own head, or then you don't feel safe at all Right, like you're having a really, really bad day and you just need somebody to just be like wow, that that's tough, that is a really tough day and the only person around is yourself and you're going why are you, why can't you right you?

Janyne: 39:23

so you're, you're the person you need you, you, you are the one you need in that moment.

Margie: 39:31

And negative self-talk does does not causes you to be unsafe with yourself and that's a, that's a, an equally big deal and and um, I think I will save that for our next conversation. But the story you tell yourself about yourself, right, is an extension of what we're talking about, because you can have the facts in front of you, you know, and facts are things that you see, things that you hear, but then we always take what we hear and what we see and we make a narrative about it and whether that is something that you are talking about, something separate from yourself, but it also bears truth in what you're, the story you're telling yourself about yourself. I bet there's a fancy big word for that too, that I don't know.

Janyne: 40:37

All right, I will. I will try. I don't always come up with them. I use them when I come up with them, but if somebody asks me what the word is, I'm done.

Janyne: 40:44

I have no idea, okay. So one thing, one thing that I want to say about that, because what you just said is so important, like the story we tell about ourselves. And where did that story begin? Okay, the story we tell about ourselves is buried inside of the of whatever happened to us as children, and of course, I talk about trauma, I talk about sexual abuse, I talk about all these things. You do not have to have that kind of story to be affected by something that happened to you as a child. And so I I posted, I posted a sub stack last Saturday about moving, and the research says that if you move between the ages of 10 and 15, if you moved then you have a I'm going to probably get the number right but like 41% greater chance of being depressed as an adult.

Janyne: 41:41

And if you move twice or more during that period, you have a 68% chance that greater chance that you will be suffer with depression as an adult. So what happens to you and for the most part we just take for granted yeah, we moved, you know, several times. You know it was hard, I had to go to a new school, you know, but we downplay that and don't realize that those things affected what we came to believe about ourselves. So sometimes, sometimes, when I say something negative, I can actually hear the person saying it. Okay, whether I can, whether it was a teacher, whether it was my mother, whether it was a sibling, whether sometimes I can actually know whose voice that is being said in. And so so those things are, and that's where you have to be curious once again

.Janyne: 42:38

You know what, what causes you to to be anxious in situations, to feel clumsy, to feel all of those things. And for me, it's generally how many times I started a new school? Every year, from fifth grade to 10th grade. So for five solid years I went to a new school every single year, and my anxiety of going into new situations is just off the charts sometimes. And my survival skills that I use to walk into the room, own the room and step into it and find my place there is also a phenomenal thing. But before I'm able to do that, I die of anxiety. And so these things are and I'm like why? You know you're going to do a good job once you get in there. Why do you have to be so negative about yourself? Oh, because of what happened to me all those years.

Margie: 43:40

Right, and sometimes just acknowledging that yes Moment is is enough to diffuse it

Janyne: 43:50

Right, I mean I just stop and I give my younger self a hug and say you know what I got this one? I'm not 10 years old anymore, going to a brand new school in a new state. No, I'm not. I know how to do this, I can go in and I can do this, and so yeah, instead of being upset with that younger part of me that gets all anxious, they just need a hug, because that was hard, it was so hard, and so yeah, just to have compassion. So there's another word the self-compassion.

Margie: 44:27

The self-compassion is a big deal. This is a big deal because you are nicer to other people frequently than you are to yourself. Yes, you are.

Janyne: 44:41

We are.

Margie: 44:41

We all are. Yes, we are. And with that I'm going to wrap this episode up, this episode up, and I'm going to kind of give a little bit of a teaser here for what we're going to talk about next, because we are talking about stories we tell ourselves. But then I'd like to continue our conversation, janine, with women and the stories we tell ourselves, especially in the religious environment.

Janyne: 45:14

Yes, important topic, absolutely, thank you.

Margie: 45:23

So how do the pieces of your life fit together? Do they fit together well and things are humming along just fine, or are there some pieces that are tight or absent or just not fitting the bill? This is your invitation to join me in my glass workshop for a video series, where I am going to do a stained glass project while I talk to you about sustainability and building sustainability into your heart and into your life. So I am going to be doing my art, which is a form of self-care, and I'm going to invite you into that space with me and I'm going to chat. I'm going to chat about self-care and I'm going to show you how I create, and there's a nifty, nifty analogy Stained glass seems to be a very good metaphor for what I want to talk about. So I'd love for you to join me. To do that, to opt in, I'll need you to email me at crabbypastor at gmailcom. That's crabbypastor at gmailcom. So you won't want to miss this. You definitely won't want to miss this. So make a plan to join me in the glass workshop. Make a plan to join me in the glass workshop.

Margie: 46:57

Are you wondering whether your fatigue, your lack of motivation, your lack of interest is burnout Maybe. I just wanted to let you know that I have a resource on the website, margiebricecom that's b-r-y-c-e. Margiebricecom and it is a burnout questionnaire free for you to download and kind of self-assess and get a sense of where you're at. There are questions that not only ask about what you're going through but maybe how often you're experiencing it and that's kind of a key to where you might be, because you have to know where you are in order to chart a course forward. And most pastors who experience pastors and ministry leaders who experience burnout rarely know that that's where they're at until they're well into it. And if you're unsure about that little statistic, so far, everybody that I've interviewed on this podcast who has experienced burnout, when I ask that kind of question, they're like, yeah, I didn't know that's where I was at. So again, go to margiebricecom it's on the home page of the website and you can get your burnout questionnaire and kind of see where you're at.

Margie: 48:29

Hey friends, the Crabby Pastor podcast is sponsored by Bryce Art Glass and you can find that on Facebook. I make stained glass as part of my self-care and also by Bryce Coaching, where I coach ministry leaders and business leaders, and so the funds that I generate from coaching and from making stained glass is what is supporting this podcast, and I will have opportunities for you to be a part of sponsoring me and, as always, you can do the buy me a cup of coffee thing in the in the show notes. But I will have some other ways that you can be a part of getting the word out about the importance of healthy self care for ministry leaders. Hey, thanks for listening. It is my deep desire and passion to champion issues of sustainability in ministry and for your life, so I'm here to help.

Margie: 49:39

View Details

Can holy friendships be the key to preventing burnout in ministry? Join us on the Crabby Pastor podcast as Margie Bryce hosts Michaele LaVigne to explore how deep spiritual connections can sustain and enrich pastoral life. Currently, Michaele contributes to the Spiritual Formation Initiative at Nazarene Theological Seminary, focusing on spiritual direction and coaching. She will be hosting a webinar on August 29 on how to start a holy friendship group (see link below).In our conversation, Michaele shares a personal story of feeling isolated in a large congregation and how divine intervention led her to form a spiritually enriching small group with two lay ministers. Using a spiritual formation primer from Renovare, they engaged in diverse Christian practices, ranging from scripture memorization to social justice actions. This journey not only transformed their spiritual lives but also influenced their congregational practices. Discover how structured holy friendships can lead to profound spiritual growth and leadership transformation.We also navigate the challenges of establishing holy friendships in ministry, especially for women in leadership roles. Reflecting on biblical examples like Moses and Jethro or Elizabeth and Mary, we discuss the power of these connections. The episode concludes with a critical discussion on recognizing and preventing burnout among ministry leaders, emphasizing the need for sustainable practices and safe spaces where pastors can be honest and supported.To register for August 29 webinar, please go to:www.nts.edu/holyfriendshipsFor more information on Renovare:https://renovare.org/

Support the Show.

🦀 🦀 🦀

Find regular support on my Facebook group by clicking HERE.Connect with me about COACHING and Workshops on self-care HERE.

TranscriptMargie: 0:01

Hey, there, it's Margie Bryce, your host of the Crabby Pastor podcast, where we talk about all things sustainability, whether it's sustainability in ministry, in your personal life and we acknowledge that the church is in a transitional time, so we hit topics there too that are going to stretch your mind and the way you lead, especially how you lead yourself, so that you don't become the crabby pastor.Margie: 0:37

This is Margie Bryce, host of the Crabby Pastor podcast, where we talk about all things self-care, so that ministry leaders can fulfill the things that God has asked them to do and offer God our best in the process. So I talk about all kinds of topics, and today we're going to talk about friendship and holy friendship in particular. I have Mikae Levine with me here and she has managed to participate in and help others to create these kinds of relationships, because we ought not to walk through life and through ministry alone and become lone rangers that will indeed, in time, wear on us and really deplete us. If we and we pray for community. I believe that's replicated in the Father, son and Holy Spirit for us, so there is a very holy purpose and design for us for that end. So Michaele and I are going to chat, but I'd like you to introduce yourself to us, please.Michaele: 1:50

Sure, sure. Thanks so much, Margie, for having me. So I am a mom of two. I have a 10-year-old and an 8-year-old. I've been married to my husband almost 19 years. Currently we live in South Bend, indiana, but my ministry journey has started in central Ohio. Got to be in at the ground level of a new start church there in a lower income neighborhood. That was a great place of growth and challenge for me. Yeah, just yeah. Well, that's a whole other story. We could talk about all the fruitfulness of that season. I was there while I was in seminary at Ashland Theological Seminary in Ohio.Michaele: 2:38

Then my husband and I spent a year of volunteer missionary service in Southern Africa, a little nation known as Swaziland, now called Eswatini. Then from there we were invited. I was invited to join the staff of Bethany First Church of the Nazarene out in Oklahoma, and that came through the time that we were in Africa. We partnered a lot with that congregation. So I served there for five years, was the pastor of discipleship and then, from Bethany First Church, with a colleague from Bethany First Church, launched a new community in Oklahoma City, like the urban core Oklahoma City, and that became Eighth Street Church of the Nazarene, and it was that you know that place.Michaele: 3:29

That really allowed me space to put some imaginings into practice, as you can do when you're starting from scratch.Michaele: 3:39

And so I was able to live into more of the spiritual formation realm of discipleship and wrote weekly practices for our congregation, really was able to lean into and offer a lot of the gifts of contemplative spirituality and Christian practice, and that also began some of my journey to what I do now, which is mostly spiritual direction. So I've been operating, serving as a certified spiritual director the last three years, which also coincided with our family move to South Bend for my husband's work, and I don't pastor a church in the same way that I had, you know, for those um for my previous life, um, but I do lead a house church gathering on Sundays and then the majority of my work throughout the week in ministry is spiritual direction, seeing folks individually, most of whom are pastors, um, but then also leading some workshops, retreats, um and conference kinds of offerings along the lines of, you know, contemplative prayer and spiritual practice and holy friendship, which is what we're talking about Sure and I forgot that we shared the Ashland thing.Margie: 5:03

Ah, yes, I was out there for my doctoral work and I love Ashland, love that place dearly. So you also have a role at Nazarene Theological, is that correct?Michaele: 5:14

Yes, yes, so just recently we launched what we're calling the Spiritual Formation Initiative through Nazarene Theological Seminary and I am directing that along with Dr Doug Hardy and Dave Sharps who's overseeing Praxis. So it's really kind of an extension of what has been happening within the classroom already for a long time the investment in individual spiritual formation of the pastor. But now we're working to extend that beyond the classroom and into pastors' lives and their congregations. So one of the things that we're doing is connecting a network of other spiritual directors to provide resourcing and care for our pastors and then create opportunities for congregations also to receive the gifts and lean into that deeper kind of listening and discernment that can be offered through those more slow and formative ways of being together.Margie: 6:28

Yeah, that slow down thing. You have to work at that.Margie: 6:34

As iconic as that sounds. You absolutely. I've learned that fairly recently and I've also had a spiritual director. I still have a spiritual director and then last, my last pastoral charge, I had a coach at the same time. So that was, you know, very different. Um, but I know, even for me as a coach, I'm pretty. I'm going to ask at some point when it's appropriate, where's god, god in this, what do you think, and those kinds of spiritual direction things. So I see the great value in doing that and I have to be really honest, some of my connectivity with coaching and spiritual direction is as wonderful and valuable as they certainly are.Margie: 7:23

And I still think that today not just in the past, but some of that initially for me was because I had trouble connecting with other ministry leaders to sit down. We would talk about this when I was out at NTS, we had to write a rule of life and all that, and we talked about having others on the journey, but I found that I had trouble connecting with other people. I mean, we would talk about it. We would say I know I really need to do this, I know it's really valuable and so I would take some initiative and try to do okay date, time and place you know and try to nail it. And once it moved to that place, people lost interest and I was very confused by that and so I thought I got to do something, especially when I went back out to Ashland. And again, this is some of the process that's involved we're writing our personal vision statement and again it comes up about don't be doing this journey alone, and I attempted again.Michaele: 8:32

And.Margie: 8:33

I just I don't know if I get a failure grade for this or what, but I do know and we'll leave this kind of information in the show notes about upcoming workshops where you're going to help us with that. So talk to me some about your journey with Holy Friendships, how that evolved.Michaele: 8:55

Yeah, I think what you say is so true, Margie, because we I think for a while anyway, at least within this current and maybe one generation of education prior to us we know that we need to do things together, but it's the how that we struggle with. There seems to be a real disconnect with how do we actually do this together? Right, and I do think that it makes a lot of sense. Reaching out to a spiritual director and or a coach is is one really important way, right, and and that that matters deeply. I don't think that they are mutually exclusive, though. I think we need both. We need the one voice that is speaking as a spiritual director that says you know, I'm going to listen deeply with you for how the Holy Spirit is working and all of our conversational emphasis is focused on you. It's not, you know, reciprocal in that moment.Michaele: 10:07

But then we also need those spaces that are mutually reciprocal, that we can be together and say we together are going to listen to one another and also listen to the Holy Spirit with each other and give guidance as the Spirit directs us. That is not an easy thing to accomplish because most of our ways of being together and our ways of speaking with one another are quite different than that. I felt like you, I felt a need for this for a very long time before I actually was introduced to anything that felt like it was meeting that need. And I will tell you that it came through Renovare. Okay, I'm familiar with that organization.Michaele: 11:05

I attended a workshop day not long after moving to Oklahoma city. There was a um, a retreat workshop in Tulsa hosted by Renovare and was really just kind of a one day, um, deep dive into um, into all things, spiritual formation, and okay, how do we getting to that? How question like, how do we actually engage? And their, their push was you know, if this feels like something that you are being drawn into, it's not a singular, it's not an individual enterprise. So find one or two other people use this workbook. They really recommend it as a starting place of a thing called the spiritual formation primer and go through and just practice. And it really was outlining like the broad, the multiple streams of Christian spirituality and tradition through Christian history and saying the necessity of each of those, and then also gave practices to you know, grow into those different streams and, you know, said this isn't something for you to do alone, it's something for you to do with a group of people in prayerful conversation with one another.Michaele: 12:31

Well, I had just moved to Oklahoma city, bethany area, and was a young member of a staff and just felt like I was at a loss as to who I could be in these kinds of conversations with. It did not feel like I had the longevity in that place or the sense of safety as a staff person among a very large congregation to just find lay people, find lay people. And there weren't there were very few other women on staff at that point in time that I felt like we would have that kind of connection and so I just sat on it for several months and every time that thought would come up I would just kind of get disgruntled and be like, wow it's so unfair, that I can't do anything about this, you know.Michaele: 13:26

And then one day I remember so clearly, you know those moments where you know that God is breaking through. It's not an audible voice, but it's so clear and I was grumbling again and just felt that nudge of like this is something that you need to do, and in exasperation I was just like I can't do anything about it. You know, I don't have people, and so clearly I sense the spirit say, well, when are you going to ask me? Are you going to ask me if I have any ideas about who you should? Oh, yeah, I know.Margie: 14:05

And then you, in those moments you kind of feel like this is sort of Christianity 101.Michaele: 14:09

Right, oh, asking God for guidance about what God's asking you to do. What a novel idea.Michaele: 14:15

No, no, that's so funny when those moments happen funny when those moments happen and lo and behold I mean it was. It was so vivid Like I. I paused and I said well, okay, god, I'll humor you. You know, sure, tell me who you think would make a good you know, holy friendship partners with me, or whatever. And I mean those two names flew at me so fast and they had never appeared on my radar before. But as soon as they, you know, as soon as I wrote them down in my journal, I was like huh, that actually might work.Michaele: 14:54

There are two ladies who were, you know, in their own process of determining a call, but were currently lay ministers in the church, working their way through local and district license kind of questions. And one was teaching a Sunday school class and two, you know, different age ranges. But I thought, huh, okay. So I reached out to one and then the other and told them what I was thinking and that I had asked the other person and of course, I mean the Holy Spirit just orchestrated it so perfectly. Each of them said I have been longing for something like this and they knew each other which I didn't know, and they knew each other which I didn't know, and they didn't know each other well, but they had had a connection, you know, like a decade prior, and it was really good and they had very fond memories of one another. And so we just was like okay. So we started working through this.Michaele: 15:57

I think it's like a nine or 10 week process or session we didn't meet weekly, I don't think and so we did that spiritual formation primer through Renovare, and at the end of those weeks, well, I should say it's kind of like it's teaching, like you read through kind of curriculum together and then you have discussion and then you pick a practice that you want to try between that time and the next time that you meet, and the next time that you meet you talk about what that practice was like.Michaele: 16:33

You know, what did we learn, what did you experience, whatever and so we did that for I don't know eight to 10 weeks, and then at the end of it, it gives you like a kind of a way to review how. What was this process like? Do we want to keep meeting? Is there anyone that we want to add? And we decided to keep meeting and we didn't use the exact form the whole time. That kind of gave us structure, but we did try to have some kind of structure to keep us on track so that it wasn't just a free for all of conversation. You know we would give an update about.Michaele: 17:11

here's what I sense God doing. Here's how you can, we can, pray for one another. And then here's something that I want to practice or work on between the time that we meet next and then we would.Margie: 17:22

So would that be a spiritual practice that they work on?Michaele: 17:25

Yes, or would it?Michaele: 17:26

be, yes, usually yeah. So the way that book works is that it gives you, like the I think it's six or eight streams. It calls it of Christian tradition and practice, calls it of Christian tradition and practice and it outlines like the here's, you know, within the evangelical tradition, within the holiness tradition, within the social justice tradition, within the contemplative and incarnational tradition. So it gives you all of these like ways to practice in that area, and so every time we met we would choose one of those practices. So some would feel like a very classic, you know spiritual discipline, like memorizing scripture, or you know a very specific way of praying. Others were like, you know, write an encouraging note to your politician, or, you know, send a letter to someone in prison from the social justice tradition, or you know just, it was a. It was a broad variety, shaped the way that I led my congregation in spiritual formation and then shaped a lot of the practices that I wrote for our congregation. That ended up becoming the book Living the Way of Jesus. But that's a whole other.Margie: 18:50

Right, right, that's all. So let me ask and I will put the link to Renovare because I've been to one of their workshops day long and they are amazing for sure, because I've been to one of their their workshops day long and they are amazing for sure. And but what I would like to ask now is how do you pattern your current?Michaele: 19:14

process of holy friendships, yeah, so. So the process that I described just, you know that started with the Renovare. That began in about 2011, I think, and we met pretty faithfully up until 2015 or so, and then there were quite a few changes and we added someone to that group and then someone moved out of the country and so, you know, it just was a little bit in flux and so we stopped meeting regularly about, um, maybe it was 2016 that that happened.Michaele: 19:53

Anyway there were several years where I wasn't meeting regularly with any kind of um group. And then during COVID, when everybody was just in the height COVID and you know the in the wake of George Floyd's murder and Black Lives Matter movement, and just so much upheaval and distress, exhaustion and isolation, it just felt like I needed something. But I looked around and noticed that the majority of people that I, you know, I have a broad network, as you do, you know, being a pastor, you have a broad network of other pastors. And I was like man, we pastors are some of the most isolated and exhausted among the bunch. This is not a good place to be.Michaele: 20:48

And so, again, I really sensed this, I really sensed this drawing into this way of of relationship again. And so again I prayed and asked okay, who, who are the women pastors that I can? You know that that really are my peers that we can engage with together? And this time it was quite different. We already knew, you know, everything was virtual, so I wasn't limited to geography, and I knew of a handful of women that I had engaged with online or had seen speaking, or, you know, we're in where we're in some level of communication already and just kind of admiring one another. We're encouraging one another from afar, right. And so I reached out to, I think, six and just kind of said, hey, I have this idea, what do you think? And four jumped on it and said yes, please, this is really.Margie: 21:52

How many did you ask? Just for those of us that are sitting back?Michaele: 21:55

going. Yeah, no, I think I asked five or six, and four students, yeah, okay, I think. So Maybe I'll have to go back, but anyway, it wasn't like I didn't cast a wide net. I really just, you know, and I even thought, if everybody says yes, we might be too large of a group, you know, but these are the people that came to mind, so I'll follow up. So we met as a group of five for a while, for two years, and then now we are a group of four.Michaele: 22:32

One of those women made some transitions and is no longer meeting with us, doing some other things, doing some other things, and that group did not start with the same level of structure that my previous group did. I think everybody at that point was nobody knew each other well. Some of us had known each other in previous ways, but nobody knew each other well and we were living in four different States, and so we decided that we just really wanted to get to know each other and pray together and create a place of safety and honesty for one another. Now this is a group of really mature and I I mean I think some of the I mean I'm biased, because now they are like my soul sisters you know, but some of the best of the best Right.Michaele: 23:35

And so you know, we have folks in that group who have studied spiritual formation and direction for a long time, and I think everyone but me now has a doctorate in some level of, you know, spirituality or formation. So we weren't coming into this newbies, but we also were not again. We were like people who know what you need to do, but you just don't know how to do it, and so we gave each other the space to practice and we just like, tried stuff. So at this point, we've now been together four years, I think. Yeah, wow, almost four years, because I think we started meeting the end of summer 2020 or beginning of fall, and we've seen each other through family deaths and work transitions and illnesses, just big moves. I mean, it's just been, you know, all the stuff of life.Michaele: 24:43

So at this point, we need far less structure to really talk about deep the things of how goes it with your soul you know, but we needed some guide rails at the beginning to say, like, how do we structure this sacred time together different than any other time that we meet? So now we're in a rhythm where we take turns, one person leads each time, so it doesn't fall to one person every time and that person just leads off with you know some kind of small shared practice or devotional, you know something that we've read in our own devotional readings and give some like questions for thought, and then we go around and share along with like hey, what, how is you know this situation that we've been praying for and how is your spouse handling? You know the current whatever, and and then we, we pray together. We also have a very active WhatsApp thread so that in between times that we meet, where we're sharing life and talking and and keeping the conversation going that way, yeah, so you meet how often?Michaele: 26:02

Again? Well, in the summer it's quite all over the place. We try to meet once a month in the summer, and then in the office, and then in the rest of the time it's every other week. Okay, all right.Margie: 26:16

So I think I'm guessing it's purely a guess that what you're doing now is what has influenced your upcoming workshop on this, absolutely yeah.Michaele: 26:29

Yeah. So the Holy Friendship webinar or workshop, whatever is offered through the Wine Coop Center for Women in Leadership at Nazarene Theological Seminary, we hope and we are planning to broaden that and invite some male colleagues and so that we can also offer this as a non-gender specific offering. But right now we have specifically designed this webinar and the accompanying resource for women clergy. Again, it's because that's who we are particular to, the there's something particular to the challenges of women in ministry that this seems like absolutely essential. So that's where we started. We also, you know, recognize there's all kinds of. We seen the need for this and we long for people to participate, but we can't keep adding individuals to our group. That's just not how you do it.Margie: 27:50

What's the, what's the you'd want? Maybe what four?Michaele: 27:54

five. Yeah, I would say probably we operated with five. That's the largest group that I've been a part of. We operated with five. That's the largest group that I've been a part of and I think that's probably max, mostly because maybe if you're in person it's a little bit different. But organizing time schedules gets challenging and then also keeping your meeting time to where everybody has equal opportunity to share that that's really really important and the more people you add, the harder it is to actually do that.Margie: 28:37

So you're looking at maybe, how long does an average or typical.Michaele: 28:41

We try to meet an hour. Sometimes, you know, if we're like, hey, we haven't met in a while and we really need a longer session, then we'll, all you know, plan for an hour and a half or something. We've also now met twice in person for like a kind of retreat all together and we've done that like, I think, two days each time and that's been really, really good.Margie: 29:07

Nice, nice. Well, you had an era where you practice the Renovare process and then you had a time in between where you didn't have anything, and then move to a time where now you you do again have this. Can you describe for us, then, what you felt during that era where you had nothing?Michaele: 29:34

I would say, while I didn't have anything that was holy friendship, I had other things. Anything that was holy friendship, I had other things. Um, that was the. Those intervening years were the height of, um, my toddler, mommy phase and church planting days oh, that's busy. It was very busy. My husband was working on his PhD. It was very busy.Michaele: 30:03

But in that busyness there was a different kind of holy friendship that emerged from our church planting pastor team degree, you know, but a lot of shared life, shared prayer, shared visioning, so that I did not feel like I was going it alone.Michaele: 30:31

But it just took on a different shape during that season and that's also the season that I started regular spiritual direction direction.Michaele: 30:38

So I think that you know again, it's not the same thing, but a lot of what I it felt like.Michaele: 30:54

There were things that I, for as much as I trusted and loved you know, my initial holy friendship group there were some things that I I needed to be challenged in and process through. That needed to happen at the non-mutual level. Right, it needed to be me and the spiritual director really wrestling some things out, or really me and the and the Holy spirit, you know, and wrestling is probably not the right word, because the spirit engages us so gently and invitationally, um, but that seems like an invitation to go into a deeper place. That prepared me for what was next. So it wasn't like I had nothing, um, but it was just a very different and I think, I think that's an important, that's an important thing for us to name and give permission for the need for different seasons and the way that, you know, our relationships and our practices can ebb and flow based on the particularities of any given season, and that spirit is maybe more okay with that than we are.Margie: 32:12

Sure, If you had to name, then what? Why we need this what would you say?Michaele: 32:24

Why we need? Why we need?Margie: 32:27

each other, why we need the holy friendship yeah.Michaele: 32:36

Gosh, there's so many things that we need. There's so many things that we need. I think it is really difficult as pastors to find spaces where it's safe to be known.Margie: 32:56

Yeah, I can say it this way we need a safe place where we can be honest. Yes, exactly.Michaele: 33:06

And I would say that at the beginning of our holy friendship, this kind of second edition that I'm a part of now, I don't know that you can't just manufacture that safety in an instant right. It takes a level of trust that grows over time. But over time, you know, I know that to those women I am not Pastor Michaele LaVigne, church Planter Michaele LaVigne, spiritual Director Michaele LaVigne, conference Speaker Michaele LaVinge, conference speaker Michaele LaVigne or author Michaele LaVigne. I'm not. I don't have to put on a show, even on the days where I have nothing good to show up with, you know. And and then there's also the times that there have been for each of us.Michaele: 34:20

There's been seasons where something so hard is happening that it's hard to even say it out loud, let alone voice it to another person. And yet the incredible gift of walking with people who the hardest stuff out loud, the bad news, the thing that feels like the impossible situation. They don't rush to fix it, they don't judge you, they just sit with you where you're at and commit to praying, and pray with wisdom, I mean, it's just and then speak the truth that you forget sometimes. Right Like this is not what, what you are feeling and thinking and all of the shame that you're piling on yourself right now. That is not of God we have. We have to have people that say that to us For sure, for sure, for sure.Michaele: 36:06

In a post-gendered or misogynistic society where, like you know, we're past all of that, right, and the reality is, and there are times when we need, as women, to say to one another you know, you're coming up against the principality and powers of sexism, right, like you know, that's what this is, yeah. And then it's like, oh gosh, you're right. Okay, now we can name it, now we can put that out there and say, all right, then that changes how I handle things or how we're going to pray about this, and then giving wise and bold counsel to one another, because being a woman in that place of leadership is so challenging, because you don't want to play the gender card right all the time.Margie: 37:01

Right, you don't, but you don't want to play the gender card right All the time. Right, you don't, but you don't want to always hesitate to kind of go in that direction. But I just had a conversation yesterday with somebody where I said not only am I female, and if I complain to God, I'm like this little yapping piece of clay saying you know, you're male, which then I'm telling God you made a mistake which I can't do theologically or anything. You know, maybe it's just it I said, and then I'm short. So this is kind of you know, and you have to figure out how to still function according to what God is asking you to do, regardless.Margie: 37:48

And that's why I'm thinking of the picture of Moses and his father-in-law, jethro, coming and holding arms up, and you need people to come around you and you need to be that. You need to hold somebody else's arm up as well. It's a real mutual kind of gift, really. It is.Michaele: 38:04

I also think of the story of Elizabeth and Mary, you know, and I think this is such a beautiful example of holy friendship where, quite literally, one is giving witness to what God is growing inside of the other. Oh, I like that picture, oh yeah, and saying you're not crazy, I see it too, and you are deeply blessed in in this and that mutual rejoicing, solidarity in the hardship of people not understanding and thinking that you're crazy. And you know, being marginalized and and knowing that there's a hard, your favor in God's eyes also brings a harder road ahead. But, but you are not. But, but there's another person who knows what it's like, and I think that is what we so desperately need and what I've been so deeply fortunate to receive.Margie: 39:17

Well, thank you for painting this beautiful picture for us and for sure I will be adding your workshop link. I'll get that from you and I'll put that in with the show notes and I'll push it out to the places that I can push and hopefully we will have more people to step in to this and get to experience even a taste of what you have presented to us today would be amazing, yeah.Michaele: 39:57

Well, I'm glad. Yeah, well I'm glad. I'll let you know too, because I think that the how is even more it's not more important session preview or a kind of a getting started sort of thing, similar to what I received in the Renovare stuff. But this is particular to women clergy groups and gives us a chance to set the tone for a different way of being together and in conversation. So that will come. As you know, people who sign up for the webinar will receive that automatically with the cost of the webinar.Margie: 40:56

Right Great, and the cost of the webinar is Right Great, and the cost of the webinar is yeah, you were going to ask me that.Michaele: 41:02

I'm pretty sure it's $30.Margie: 41:04

Okay, that's a deal. Yeah, you can say $30-ish. Yes, if it hasn't been nailed because we, you know record these way in advance and you know stuff. But yeah, so it is. Let's is, let's say, affordable. Yeah, we're trying to make it so, yes, okay well, thank you so much for being on the crabby pastor podcast. I appreciate this so much, but here's a question that I frequently not always, because I don't know. It falls out of my head sometimes to even ask. But, um, is there anything about life and ministry that makes you crabby?Michaele: 41:48

Yeah, yes.Margie: 41:52

Would you have any particular item that you would care to share?Michaele: 41:56

Oh, mercy. Well, I would say I mostly get crabby these days in trying to organize my schedule. Oh, okay, it's the tedium of administrative stuff, not having another brain to help keep me straight. Um, and I recently found where I had made a scheduling error and double booked myself. And um can't be at a conference and a retreat at the same time, and so that makes me crabby.Margie: 42:37

Oh well, thank you so much for playing that game and and sharing that with us, because we all get crabby?Margie: 42:46

I always ask this because at a conference, um, a gentleman came up to my table and said, because it had a crab on it, and said you know that stuff? And he said I'm never crabby, I don't know. Like, I don't know what you're talking about. I'm never crabby, I don't know, like, I don't know what you're talking about, I'm never crabby. He didn't say I don't know what you're talking about, but he just said I'm not crabby. And I said well, why don't you go find your spouse and bring her here? And he never came back. Oh, surprise, but that's funny. You know, when you're not serving in a pastoral capacity, I feel like I'm a little more emboldened to push at times. So, anyway, um, that truth that we need to hear, I guess. Well, thank you so much for um being on the podcast and and, uh, blessings on your continued ministry in this new venture and in all the ventures that you have going right now. Thank you, thank you so much Blessings on you.Margie: 43:51

So how do the pieces of your life fit together? Do they fit together well and things are humming along just fine, or are there some pieces that are tight or absent or just not fitting the bill? This is your invitation to join me in my glass workshop for a video series, where I am going to do a stained glass project while I talk to you about sustainability and building sustainability into your heart and into your life. So I am going to be doing my art, which is a form of self-care, and I'm going to invite you into that space with me and I'm going to chat. I'm going to chat about self-care and I'm going to chat. I'm going to chat about self-care and I'm going to show you how I create, and there's a nifty, nifty analogy Stained glass seems to be a very good metaphor for what I want to talk about. So I'd love for you to join me to do that. To opt in, I'll need you to email me at crabbypastor at gmailcom. That's crabbypastor at gmailcom. So you won't want to miss this. You definitely won't want to miss this. So make a plan to join me in the glass workshop.Margie: 45:18

Are you wondering whether your fatigue, your lack of motivation, your lack of interest is burnout Maybe. I just wanted to let you know that I have a resource on the website, margiebricecom. That's B-R-Y-C-E. Margiebicecom, that's b-r-y-c-e. Margiebricecom, and it is a burnout questionnaire, free for you to download, and kind of self-assess and get a sense of where you're at. And there are questions that not only ask about what you're going through but maybe how often you're experiencing it and that's kind of a key to where you might be, because you have to know where you are in order to chart a course forward. And most pastors who experience pastors and ministry leaders who experience burnout rarely know that that's where they're at until they're well into it. And if you're unsure about that little statistic, so far, everybody that I've interviewed on this podcast who has experienced burnout, when I asked that kind of question, they're like, yeah, I didn't know, that's where I was at. So again, go to margiebricecom. It's on the home page of the website and you can get your burnout questionnaire and kind of see where you're at.Margie: 46:56

View Details

Find out how to navigate the complexities of ministry while staying true to your calling with insights from Beth Caulfield, author of "People Throw Rocks at Things that Shine." In this episode, we unpack the inevitable messiness and unexpected hardships that come with following one's spiritual path. Beth provides wisdom on how to remain steadfast, emphasizing that God uses every experience, even the tough ones, to fulfill His greater plan. Drawing inspiration from the Apostle Paul, we discuss the importance of maintaining a close relationship with God and keeping our eyes on Jesus to stay resilient and fruitful in ministry.

Discover practical tools and heartfelt advice on balancing self-care with spiritual duties. Reflecting on moments of divine encouragement, we highlight the significance of finding personal spiritual disciplines, fostering supportive spiritual communities, and integrating self-care practices to avoid burnout. We also embrace the reality of our "crabby" moments, providing strategies to manage them effectively and sustain a healthy spiritual life. Tune in for an episode brimming with encouragement, practical tips, and spiritual nourishment aimed at helping you thrive in your ministry journey.

TranscriptMargie: 0:01

Margie: 1:08

I don't know if any of you have had the opportunity to have your call get messy. I know of a couple who had this gorgeous trajectory totally upward and I'm sure the angels are singing in the background of their call. That's not my experience. I don't think that's the experience of many, many pastors. So this podcast I am going to interview Beth Caulfield. This podcast is dedicated to all y'all out there that whose calls just have been a little messy. Things that you can lean into, lean on, do and all of that so that you don't become, you know, the crabby pastor. So, beth, you are going to kind of start us off. I think with some of your this is like a three-point sermon, almost, isn't it? But I'll let you talk some about our call and who we are as we follow Jesus.

Beth: 2:11

Well, thank you, Margie, and the first thing I want to say is I really appreciate you having me on and giving me the opportunity to talk about this very subject, because it's my hope that, as part of my ministry including with the book is to help people recognize that, yeah, it's just like everything that Jesus said it would be. It's not going to be easy, but if we keep our eyes on him and not on the waves and all that he has taught us in relationship with him, then we can get through it, and I love that you're doing this kind of podcast, because it is clearly about helping us who are in the thick of it Remember that Jesus is teaching us what to do. So you know. You referenced the title of my book, which just is exactly what you're talking about, with the fact that when we are out in ministry, we should not be surprised when the rocks come, and sometimes the rocks come from places that we expect, and sometimes it's usually the ones that hit the hardest are the ones we don't expect, and it all can be a faith building experience if we remember that we knew that this was going to be part of the road and part of the remembering that it's the road is remembering that our call is real. Never doubt it. That our call is real, never doubt it, never sway from when things get tough, feeling that perhaps you heard it wrong or that you made it up or it's over, because all of us have the ministry of believers, whether it's ordained ministry or missionaries or whatever role it is in the local church. We're all called, and the excitement and the abundant life I know you agree, Margie, on this is that we have the opportunity to walk it out, and so you know.

Beth: 4:19

The first thing that I would remind people is exactly that Don't doubt your call, and that call is to bear fruit and you are gifted and you will bear fruit.

Beth: 4:30

And it may look different than what you thought, but the reality is you've got a light Don't hide it under a bushel and it's unique and God has a plan for it. And my calling has wound up being one of really looking at some things within the church structure itself, which was not what I was expecting at all, been different, in that I thought I would be focused on your ministry out in the local church, serving with folks on day-to-day ministry, and it's been that, but some of the rocks that I experienced in that process were helping me work through some of my bigger calling. So my point in saying that and I can get into more depth on that if you want, margie, but if not, that's okay but my point in saying that is God is using even those rocks and sometimes you're the right person to either get hit with them or caught, or catch them because you're the one who's going to help get rid of them.

Margie: 5:44

And do you? Am I remembering correctly that you had some kind of HR background?

Beth: 5:49

Yes, that is correct, yeah.

Margie: 5:51

Yeah, and so that that is some of the gifting that is being used.

Margie: 5:57

It's always interesting, especially for those of us that were you know, second career, as they say, that were you know, second career, as they say, that God does not waste a thing.

Margie: 6:09

You know, I always was amazed that the Apostle Paul was exactly the right kind of person and with his background, with his Jewish aristocracy, if you want to call it that, and then at the same time he had a Greek background that he was exactly the right person to bring the gospel to the non-Jewish folk at the time.

Margie: 6:32

So God still does that kind of thing and he does it in each and every one of our lives, and I know we talked previously before the interview about how it is indeed a spiritual battle, and I always think back to Moses and when he's leading the people out of bondage. And it wasn't very long before they were saying, for heaven's sakes, why are we following this crazy guy out here, when we had three square meals a day back in Egypt and you're like, come on. I mean those kinds of things for any leader are just plain old challenges, but we have to remember that our battle is not against flesh and blood, even though you know there might be somebody you want to punch in the nose metaphorically, metaphorically not really so talk some about how you see the spiritual aspect of this Sure.

Beth: 7:32

So the key on it is knowing the Lord and keeping your relationship close with him, and in doing that, obviously, you practice your spiritual disciplines, and one of the ones that most often gets neglected, when we get on the run and we start getting upset, is we tend to run into the cave, like Elijah, and think that we are alone and start operating like we are alone.

Beth: 8:04

And probably the most important thing that I could say on this is to remember that you are not alone and that when things get difficult, as you're trying to walk through your calling, that you are not going to persevere if you do not reach out to the resources that the Lord has given you through other people. You know Elijah didn't remember that there were others out there with the same understanding of the evil that was going on in the time that they were living in. And you know reaching out and having conversations with others and hearing other people say, no, you're not crazy. And in my case, no, you're not crazy or a failure. There is a problem, there's something going wrong in our system that needs to get fixed and let's work together for ways to improve it. And if there weren't people around me at times. Then I made efforts to go out and find them.Beth: 9:14

That's good advice. You know, often we can just say well, you know I'm alone, and a lot of you know, let's face it, a lot of pastors, we tend to be introverted, and there's nothing wrong with being introverted, except for when it gets in the way of us being able to reach and connect with the Lord, and sometimes that connection is as we stand there in the pulpit and say every week has to do with working with other people. So, for instance, as part of my story as a pastor in the United Methodist Church in greater New Jersey, when I started recognizing that there were some issues within the system and that I felt I was different whether that be in the way I looked at the ordination process, the way I looked at doing ministry, the way my theology was, whatever it was as I started recognizing that there was something different about me, I prayed and the Lord started showing me. You're not the only one, and in my case, this was in 2016,.

Beth: 10:22

There was another group of people who were coming together, who were asking a lot of the same questions, and we had a meeting out in Chicago. This was the Wesleyan Covenant Association. Right, we had a meeting, and there I saw other people that I had affinities with, who were having some of the same questions and so forth, and so that was helpful and bolstering for me that I wasn't alone. There was a time when I was at a conference with a female pastor that I hardly knew, but we bonded and I let her in on some of the challenges I was having and she was the one who recognized Beth. There's a spiritual dimension to what's happening here and that's funny for people to hear that this would be a revelation to pastors. But sometimes when you're in your own world dealing with difficulties, you don't see the bigger picture, and the bigger picture always involves that spiritual piece. Bigger picture, and the bigger picture always involves that spiritual piece. So having this person say, yeah, you are facing some persecution and let's attack this from a spiritual place was helpful.

Margie: 11:36

Right, and I think I think too. You know everybody deals with something in the hall. You know, frequently women, clergy, deal with something related to that. But let me tell you as well, the guys, there's always something, I think there's always something that is our thorn in the flesh as we continue to walk it out. And the deal, the gig, is to be faithful and obedient on a day-by-day basis. But you've identified something you know don't walk alone for sure.

Margie: 12:16

And this is a prize of the Wesleyan heritage that we have, where this was a key facet.

Beth: 12:24

Yes.

Beth: 12:25

How things developed, go ahead, yeah and yeah and that's I would say that as important as finding someone that you can unload on or whatever, is finding someone or people that are going to provide you with a godly counsel and accountability. Those are key words in our Wesleyan heritage as well, and I'm a strong proponent of Wesleyan bands, or, if you call it, an accountability group or small group at this point, but finding people that you can be comfortable with and develop relationship with to hold one another accountable. You know I can say that during some of the difficult times that I went through, god put it on my heart to start a band, and it was challenging because I'm like well, who am I going to have a band with? There's no one like in my whole state that agrees with me, but what God did was help me find prayer partners, actually who I could be close with, who are all over the country, and for over two years we have met together via Zoom every Monday morning at eight o'clock. I have a friend, kim Reisman, who's head of the World Evangelism Program. She is part of that. She's in Indiana. I have a friend who's a pastor down in Florida, a layperson who is a leader in the Global Methodist Church out in Oklahoma, and another friend who's a deacon out in Pittsburgh in the United Methodist Church. We get together and we hold one another up and I cannot tell you how helpful that has been.

Beth: 14:14

I also would say that, reaching out to others who are beyond your circle, within your denomination, or even that close of Wesleyanism, I have good accountability partners who are assembly of gods, nazarenes Again, that's the Wesleyan heritage. But again, the point is we can get ourselves caught up in. No one understands because no one's like me and everyone's got that when in fact we should be looking for people and I, you know, I'd even say spiritual mentors versus institutional ones, and and we can get into a whole thing with that our, our important family perspective always counts. You know, you know, we, we always wrestle as pastors with how much to bring your family in, how much not to bring them in. Well, do bring them in some, because they help keep you grounded. And at the same time, you know, there are wonderful spiritual directors, coaches, and therapists.

Beth: 15:26

I mean, there are a lot of people to help you not go it alone.

Margie: 15:33

So that's the key there, right, and I always think of that Elijah passage and when I've preached on it I always say I realize off of the pages of scripture there's no intonation, but I always read that pretty whiny that Elijah says and I'm the only one left, and I'm the one here that cares about this, that I'm the only, and it's very easy for us to get locked into that and we need to be very intentional. I was just at Palcon at Trevecca Nazarene University and I took a workshop and they were talking about spiritual friends and doing exactly what you were talking about Once a week getting together and, if nothing else, it just gives you more brains to work with other than just your own head, because your own brain sometimes can get a little bit nearsighted and out of focus and definitely lose sight of the very, very big picture. I think you also mentioned something about an app, or am I making that up?

Beth: 16:44

Yeah, no, there are apps to help you stay within the framework of a Wesleyan band and all of a sudden, I'm forgetting the name of ours here.

Margie: 16:56

Okay, Well, we'll put it back in.

Margie: 17:00

If it pops back in, just pause everything and we'll insert that, or we'll insert it in the show notes, that's not a problem. Also, I think we talked about paying attention to when God sends people to help you. If somebody just all of a sudden appears on the scene and you don't know what to make of that really, instead of just considering the coincidence or just something happenstance, it's not really significant really tuning into the spirit and saying, oh my, god sees, god knows and God cares. And I was at another conference and I'm standing by my you know crabby pastor table and that kind of thing, and a woman came up to me.

Margie: 17:51

This was when I was with the Free Methodists in Michigan recently and a woman came up to me and just said this is just so needed.

Margie: 18:01

And I appreciate that kind of encouragement, I really do, keeps me wanting to keep on, keeping on, you know, with it. But she all of a sudden put her arm around me and just started praying for my ministry and I was so grateful for that. I really was. But after she left and as I'm packing up for the day, I just reflected back on that and thought and as I'm packing up for the day, I just reflected back on that and thought, yep, god sees, god knows and God does care. So it's always amazing when those moments arrive and somebody has skin on and they've been sent by Jesus just to say you know good job, or keep moving, or something or anything that is going to be meaningful to you and encourage you Amen. So we are left, then, with one other aspect that we talked about, and that is one of my favorite topics self-care. So I think you talked about ministry being a marathon and not a sprint.

Beth: 19:07

Yes, yes, I'm going to pause here because I remember the name of that app. So a great app to help you with a Wesleyan band is something called Discipleship Bands and it's put out by Seedbed and it just offers some support around the basic questions that go into a Wesleyan covenant group. You know, the first question is always how is it with your soul for the group to wrestle with? And then what are your struggles and successes? And then how might the spirit and scriptures be speaking in your life? If you just use those three questions, you will have robust conversation. But the band app that I'm talking about also offers other resources and other questions to help keep you going. So I'd recommend that, and anybody can start a band.

Margie: 20:00

I know it sounds funny. Anybody can start a band and I automatically my head goes back to the 70s, being in the garage and people getting the drums. You play the guitar.

Beth: 20:19

Not that kind of band, but anybody can start a Wesleyan band for sure. And the other thing is often, as pastors, we're good at helping encourage our laity to get involved in bands, and then we have this question of whether to get involved with them or not, and then, if we may, want that kind of accountability with other pastors but it can be awkward, you know, letting your hair down or finding the right people and so forth but what I could say is when, when I prayed about it and reached out, every person I reached out to was like oh, that's wonderful. I've been wanting to do something like this with someone, so don't let your own insecurities keep you from doing it. It's such a blessing, absolutely, absolutely. So you were asking me about self-care and knowing yourself and the importance of that, and you're right. That is such a key when the rocks come.

Beth: 21:11

And, as I had shared with you, I know that I am by nature, a sprinter and not a marathoner, and yet ministry is a marathon, and what I mean by that is I am someone who just gets full of energy for whatever it is that I'm working on and I just go, go, go, and I can just go until there's no energy anymore and then I'm completely depleted. And what I would say is that might be okay if that's who you are, if that's who you're created to be. Now, sometimes that's just a matter of discipline, right, and you need to be a little more cognizant. What I would say is know what works for you. So, for instance, I know that I get a lot of energy and just go, go, go, but that means I can't do it for a long time and I have to take more frequent breaks and I have to have long rests when I do that, versus someone who may do a lower, steadier energy level throughout, may be able to go a little longer without a Sabbath or without. I know that when we're talking realistically in ministry, all of us struggle with Sabbath. And when we're legalistic about it and say, hey, it's got to happen exactly this time every week and you got to do this, that's just one more pressure that makes it difficult for people. And what I would say is no, you need to know yourself and what the Lord's calling of you on it, and, whatever it is, don't neglect it.

Beth: 22:53

You know, for me, self-care has always been exercise and vacations. It's also included taking leave of absence. It has been taking special ministry trips to just be ministered to. I, you know, I refer in my book to some time that I spent in Korea. I went over there both to do ministry and for some rest and relaxation, but it was also a time for me to be ministered to and it was just so important.

Beth: 23:28

And I know that I need to continue my spiritual disciplines but not become slaves to them for the sake of the discipline themselves. And that's you know. And again, Margie, I'm going to another level here. I'm trying to very much so reinforce that spiritual disciplines are important, but recognizing that having that close relationship with the Lord will make them as fruitful as possible. And it's the relationship with the Lord that's the most important part about it.

Beth: 24:03

And so I would say, you know, don't beat yourself up over spiritual disciplines, but find the balance in your life that the Lord has put there in the way he made you personally and you specially. We all need balance and moderation and I really think that that's you know. Someday that's going to be another book that I write is just that importance of that balance and moderation for each of us and figuring out where it fits within the theological framework that we've been, given that this is probably, and especially now, as we're still in or coming out of or wherever we are in these pandemic times, that is such a critical issue. I just see so many, in particular pastors, who are crying out on social media and elsewhere by repeatedly, you know, just posting their concerns or posting concerning things about their lives that you know. It's time for us to do a gut check and say, you know, maybe I need a break, and I don't that doesn't mean walking away from your calling at all, but what does that break look like?

Margie: 25:31

So, yes, that's really important and I like that you bring out that balance piece of not making your spiritual disciplines legalistic, you know, or any of that. Like Sabbath Okay, all right, I blew it. I didn't start at 7am this morning for my exact 24 hours of you know, and I can get caught in something like that very easily and then I feel like I messed up and then I tag into and that makes me less than perfect and then I say, oh, just nevermind, you know that whole spiral, yeah, just nevermind. So you know, sometimes I find what I need to do is extend some grace to my own self. Yes, yes, that way. And just, you know, I am a little bit more sprinter ish in nature. I can take off, you know, like a shot, and then if I don't pace myself, I can easily just go go crash and burn, and that's what we want to have happen. So I don't know if that says something better about those who are a little bit more marathon oriented, but I liked what you said about knowing which one you are.

Beth: 26:50

Yeah, I mean, and I you know, and I've had that question myself before Well, would it be better if I retrained to be a marathoner? And then what I have realized is, no, if I slow my pace I don't have fun. That's not who I am. That doesn't mean there aren't times that you need to restrain yourself. That's not. You know again. But in general, when I have passion and energy towards something, I have so much and the adrenaline is there and it can last for weeks, months, years, right or not, but I recognize it, I recognize the Holy Spirit in it which fuels it more. But if I'm going to pay attention to that, I also need to pay attention to when the Holy Spirit says now, whoa slow it down back off Right.

Margie: 27:46

And then and then, as you get older and older and I read this book about cause I ride a bicycle, I cycle, and and I read about recovery. It was somebody I'd talked to who does? I mean, she has high end cycling. I'm not. I'm like 11 and a half miles per hour average. I'm not anybody who's going to be 20 anything ever, probably. And she said, oh, you can work into it. And I'm thinking, yeah, maybe I don't want to, but but she said one thing once you get over a certain age, that you need to take recovery time. So no longer do I ride two days in a row, yep. And so you apply something like that to your self-care and spirituality and you know, as you get a little older, you really better do that.

Margie: 28:35

I have a series coming up next that's going to have some people on that have come back from burnout and they're more than 25, let's just say more than 35. And they have some wisdom to share with us in that regard as well, in terms of self-care. So, are there any? Okay, I have now learned that from one interview I did. At the end of it, I said, is there anything you want to add? And they said to me yeah, you never asked me what makes me crabby.

Margie: 29:09

I laughed about that and then I thought I guess I didn't ask that. So this is your moment If you would like to share with us and and I will give you this caveat that at a couple of the conferences that I've been at lately I usually have had one person saunter by and just kind of smile at me and go I'm never crabby, and I want to say that, okay, you go find your spouse and bring them over here and we'll have this discussion again. Whether it is overtly crabby or you know, within your heart and spirit is there anything that you would like to share with us that makes you crabby, and maybe what you do about that?

Beth: 29:53

Yeah, well, you know the maybe this is a boring answer, but I have to just circle back to what we were just talking about. I think I'm crabby when I start letting myself spiral into questioning my call and questioning my gifts, when I start isolating myself and when I neglect self-care. And when I neglect self-care and I think those three things really, I mean when I'm acting out being crabby, when I look at it, at least one of those is being jeopardized and it's a decision that I have made to do it and not to beat myself up or anyone else for doing that. But it's a good self-checklist to look back and say, okay, why am I so crabby? Well, maybe it's because I haven't taken a break in a long time. Maybe it's because I'm just sitting here wallowing in self-pity and not talking to anybody. I need to get it out right. Or maybe it's because I'm starting to believe those voices in the head that are saying you're not accomplishing anything. That's what's important. You're failing because you weren't called to do any of this mess to begin with. So doing those things.

Beth: 31:17

Two other brief things that I'll mention is don't be afraid to change. Don't be afraid to change direction, because God does that sometimes too. I always thought that my calling was to be an ordained pastor in the United Methodist Church. I spent eight years in that process and my book is about that. Right, I never became that. I am, however, an ordained elder in the Global Methodist Church right now, and I am doing other things as well.

Beth: 31:52

But that took a realization that God had a different plan with what I was supposed to be doing. And, of course, the book talks a lot more about why that is. But my point is sometimes the calling. The calling's always there, but you don't know where it's going to lead you. And don't be afraid to take either the path less traveled right, I got to talk in these shapes but the path less traveled or the take the about face fork in the road. Do recognize, as Paul did, that the spirit wasn't leading him there. Right To go somewhere else. And related to that is don't be afraid to shake the dust off your feet, Right.

Margie: 32:38

Oswald Chambers says this and he says are you attached to your ideas about God or are you attached to God? And I can add to that and say are you following your ideas about what God has for you or are you following Jesus? You following Jesus. And that's a hefty, hefty push. I know I served in pastoral ministry for 15 years and I don't know that if somebody would have told me what I would be doing today, that my ministry would be to ministry leaders, I would have, you know, thoughts. That's crazy.

Margie: 33:17

And the bigger, bigger picture is that the church is in a transition. The Big C church is in a transition right now, post-pandemic, and you're going to have people who are daring to follow the call of the Spirit to develop ministries from within traditional settings that are new, or they might run parallel to a traditional church setting. Or there might be some who are independent and a little more entrepreneurial. Or there might be some who, you know, I'm going to have a used car lot and I'm going to do it with this level of integrity and open and honest trading and dealings with people. I'm going to do my ministry and my life and my work and my practice in such a way that people are going to say hey what is?

Margie: 34:09

up with that person. They definitely don't do the status quo thing. Their ministry, their coffee shop, their I've got friends doing farming, kind of you know, let me raise really healthy food for you. I've got I know people doing all this kind of thing, and so the question is are we keeping in step with the spirit in this very, very unique era? So I want to thank you, Beth, for coming on the Crabby Pastor podcast.

Margie: 34:40

I wonder if people are thinking, if I go on there, does that mean I'm Crabby? I don't know, does it? I think we all are. This is the honest thing. I hope not, and I liked what you said because that was a good, healthy ownership of the fact that we all can be Crabby. We're crabby on the outside or just crabby on the inside, and you know Jesus knows. So thanks again, and I will put the resources that Beth has mentioned in the show notes. Thank you so much for being here today. Hey, thanks for listening. It is my deep desire and passion to champion issues of sustainability in their lives so that they can go the distance with God and whatever plans that God has for you. I would love to help, I would consider it an honor and, in all things, make sure you connect to these sustainability practices you know, so that you don't become the Crabby Pastor.

View Details

Kathy was my spiritual director for about eight years. This means she endured A LOT because she dealt with ME. Kathy passed away from Alzheimer's in January 2022. Her illness took her away too early from many who benefitted from her wisdom and wit. Here I'm sharing some of Kathy's best pieces of wisdom as a tribute to her. Her influence on the ministry I am called to is profound. For one, I have a spiritual director bent that impacts how I coach others. I hope you find some treasures in this podcast that will be sustaining.

Transcript'

Margie: 0:01

I got a spiritual director because I kept having these classes that talked about the pastor as a person and you needed to have others walk with you and journey with you. For some, that means an accountability group, for some that means a coach, and I had a coach. I was at the time, leading a merger of four and a half churches. But Kathy came alongside me even earlier than that. I was working through my doctoral degree and that's when I had another class that said you better get other people around you. And I had tried before and it really bombed out and I griped at God about that. That's maybe why I call myself a little crabby at times. I was crabby to God about this. That here you go, here's my assignment. I'm attempting to fulfill this assignment and I can't seem to find others who would sit with me, walk with me. So I decided I would look into a retreat and I found this retreat center that a friend had recommended to me and I saw a link on there for spiritual directors and I thought, well, I will give this a go, I will see what happens here.Margie: 2:35

In my opinion, I really did need a reality check from a spiritual perspective, someone else's point of view. You know I don't trust myself totally all the time. To be honest with myself, all the time I think I'm pretty brutal to myself really and can be a little uncompassionate. That's true, that's true. But I was really hoping to find someone who would be honest with me. I really needed that, and so she was that for me.Margie: 3:09

We met monthly for like eight years eight years, you know, when I first got connected to Jesuit House where I sought after the spiritual director, I had to interview like three and so I interviewed Kathy first and she was this fun and bubbly neither of which, I would necessarily say, are my top two qualities here but she was fun and bubbly and she was a charismatic Catholic and I have Catholic roots, catholic and I have Catholic roots, I have friends with charismatic expressions and I just like the Holy Spirit part of that. And so I went ahead and interviewed to other people anyway, even though I kind of knew, you know, as Kathy would say, you know when you need to know. So I'm taking this time to just reflect on the gift that someone else can be in your life. I can go on and on about how you ought not to do this alone, and that's true. That's true. We need to recognize and fully embrace the gift that other people can be to you and to me.Margie: 4:29

So here was the thing I did want to find someone who would be honest with me, and she was. I mean, she would ask the right kinds of questions or nudge me in the right kind of direction. But here was the even bigger thing. The even bigger thing was that I was totally honest with her. I didn't hide behind anything, I didn't withhold what I really thought and felt. I just laid it out there. And you know what this is so important, and I know this develops over time, whether you're with somebody that you're coaching or an accountability group or any of those types of journeying together. But it is so important that you have someone with whom you can really just be brutally honest. You know you can be say to them I just don't see God in this. Or you can say I don't think I should be doing this, I don't feel like I'm a very good leader. Or you can say these people annoy me. You know you can say that there and it's fine and they're compassionate, they're kind, they love you. Anyway, you need to find a place where you can be totally, totally honest with someone and just remember it might take a little bit of time for you. Everybody needs that safe place.Margie: 6:11

Kathy was the most patient listener probably on the planet because because, as you probably can guess, I can go on and on about stuff and you know that's almost like the curse of the pastor and we just generally can. But she would just patiently listen and in her mind and in her heart and in her spirit, in her heart and in her spirit, she's seeking for God and seeking for God's response to me. Not that she was the mouthpiece of God, but she is seeking to see where God, where she picks up that, where God's in action around me and help me to see that. Because let's face it, people to see that, because let's face it, people. Some days we don't feel it, some days we don't. But she was an extraordinarily thorough listener, truly an in-the-moment person. This is something that coaches learn as well is how to be totally in the moment and totally focused on what the other person is saying. And she was just this tremendous gift to me Towards the end of our time together, right when our relationship was kind of mutating into, you know, a friendship where we just would have lunch.Margie: 7:32

On occasion she started to have some medical issues where she would lose her words. She called it, so we would be talking and she just kind of struggled to find a word and I would help her and she would explain to me that she was going for testing and she did end up with an Alzheimer's kind of diagnosis kind of diagnosis, and apparently, if you are in your 60s and you get Alzheimer's, it's a pretty fast deterioration, and so Kathy experienced that, and she was a gift not just to me, but to many, many other people. I wanted to share with you, though, some things that she said to me that I will always hold dear, always. They're just a part of me now they just are. The first one is God will let you know when you need to know. Now, how many of us here want to know what's going to happen next? How many of us want to? You know, we just want it all written out this is going to happen and that's going to happen, and that's going to happen and that's going to happen.Margie: 8:52

Or you think that nothing is going on around you, that nothing's moving, nothing's shaking, and so you know God might be taking a nap somewhere. I don't know. You just have the sense that not much is happening, and I know that Kathy looked at me one day when I was just struggling with those kinds of things. I just was seeking for some direction. It just didn't feel like it was coming, and she just said God will let you know when you need to know. So we need to trust and have faith that God's going to give you the FYI when you need that information, not beforehand so that you can walk around holding it for a week or two or a month, but so that you know it around holding it for a week or two or a month, but so that you know it when you need to know it, exactly at the right moment, and God won't let you down and just not give you the FYI at all. God just doesn't function like that.Margie: 9:56

The other thing Kathy would say to me is stop shooting on yourself. That's s-h-o-u-l-d. Hyphen i-n-g. Because I would sit there and say I should be doing this, I should be doing that, this should be looking like this, this isn't looking like that, so I should be doing something about that, I need to be this, that or the other thing. And she would just stop me and say you just need to stop shitting all over yourself, just stop. And you know what I needed, that I needed somebody to kind of shake me at that moment and just kind of say hey, hey, you're being a little hard on yourself, because I don't know of anyone that is harder on me than me and that just is who I am, and maybe you're that too, or at the very least. Well, I'm that Enneagram one and we have that ongoing critic thing going on where there's always something. But it's easy to look around and look at other people, other ministries. If you are the average church in America I think we're now down to 69 from 75 is the average size of a church in America. That's the bulk of the ministry leaders serving in a church that size. But then you look at some of these much, much larger churches around us and it's easy to start comparing yourself and it's easy to give into that and think, oh my goodness, I'm just not making that big of an impact compared to there and you just have to understand that you are where you are because God planted your feet there and you do need to stop shitting all over yourself.Margie: 11:45

Kathy was always great at pointing out when God had a sense of humor about something. She just says he's just. She would always say he's a crazy guy. He's a crazy guy, he has such a sense of humor and I would just laugh at that. Her perspective was very genuine, very bubbly, very compassionate and I needed that and I still need that I think we all need that. We need somebody that has a sense of humor about our situations for sure, for sure she would always. This was one of her favorite things, because I was working on a dissertation on how well pastors understood kenosis.Margie: 12:30

That's something that I'm very passionate about, about being surrendered to God's purposes in a very spiritual way, and when you're a ministry leader, that's pretty key actually that you are really being surrendered to God's purposes for you, for the people over which God has given you charge and responsibility, in a spiritual way. And so anytime there was an opportunity where I was backed into a corner about this surrender issue in my life or in my ministry, she was so great at saying you are living your dissertation, you are living it, you are just living it, and I thought, yeah, yeah, that's yeah. I mean at the moment I'd be like what, what? It was like a wake-up call, because I think that's true. I think that when God puts something on your heart to live into, you're going to encounter it in life and in ministry in multiple ways, and it's the way that God nurtures that seed within you, to help it to sprout and help it to grow in interesting ways. And I would never, never, ever, have seen that without her guidance and without her chronically I mean chronically pointing that out about how your dissertation work is that.Margie: 14:03

And when I go back and I look through that material that I worked on, sometimes I read it and go, oh my gosh, I can't believe I wrote this. But at the same token I realized how much that work became another part of my heart and life and my DNA probably my spiritual DNA for sure. And I look at that and I stand in awe of where I am today and how I am now called to help encourage pastors to do self-care. And the spiritual part of self-care is to be sure that you are surrendered to God's purposes. Isn't that just amazing? I wanted to say, isn't that stinking amazing? But I stopped myself. So there I said it. But I think that is absolutely amazing and it just reaffirms you. So she was always great at pointing those things out.Margie: 15:00

The other one that she would say to me and I don't know this is a moment of vulnerability. I guess she told me you don't have trouble staying on the path, because I think I was telling her one day I don't even know if I'm on the right path. I feel like I'm just, you know, again, I was brutally honest and this was my place where I could be and she stopped me and she says you don't have trouble staying on the path, you have trouble finding peace on the path. Whoa, that was. I had to stop. You know, I'm sure I thought about that for days, you know, in my inability to just settle down and trust God with where I was and to lean more fully into God and to just take a chill pill. Seriously, I hate that, but it always comes back to Margie needs to take a chill pill, or it frequently comes back to that anyway. So it was reassuring that I do stay fairly well on the path that God has for me.Margie: 16:13

But my prayer had been for years Lord, help me to find rest in you. And isn't that interesting that that was my prayer for years and that now I'm doing what I'm called to do to coach ministry leaders, to encourage self-care for ministry leaders, so that you can find peace, that you can find peace, all of us can find peace on the path. Because, even though I don't have a pastoral role at the moment although I guess I really do, I really do. I feel like I'm your pastor. Any ministry leader that I have the privilege of working with, I feel like I get to pastor them, and we need that. We really do. You know, there were days and times in my ministry where I would say, oh my goodness, I need a pastor. Where's a pastor? And some of us have ministry supervisors. That could be that, and some of us are a little hesitant about sharing everything, and you know all that that whole dynamic of being weak and feeling weak and then having your supervisor know this about you, and all that kind of thing. But my ministry to this day, though, is helping you find some peace on the path. Maybe I can be that for you.Margie: 17:40

At the moment, I'm still wrangling through how I can honor Kathy's legacy in my life. What can I do? And at the moment because this is actually how I found out about Kathy's passing I'd had some phone connection over COVID, and I was going to come out and visit, and she had some illness it wasn't COVID, but it was like a bacterial thing and they said don't come over, she's not feeling well today, and that kind of thing, and so that led me through last fall and and into the winter, and, and I just I knew she was declining, I knew she was deteriorating, I knew we couldn't have the same kind of wonderful conversations that we'd had over the years. And I was very slow, very slow, and I regret this deeply in trying to connect with her. And by the time I did, I called there. I noticed the answering machine message was just a little different. And I happened to Google her name and I saw her obituary and that was very sad and I've still been dealing with grieving that loss.Margie: 18:53

And her husband, roger, did call me and talk to me and I have to tell you that one thing that always gets to me is older gentlemen crying. For some reason that has a profound impact on me. And so Roger and I had a good conversation and he was, you know, heavily. He's been in relationship with her for, you know, more than 50 years, and so he was in deep, deep grief. And so far the only way that I can think to honor her is to call Roger once a month it's in my phone now and just kind of do a pastoral checkup. You know, once a pastor, always a pastor. It's almost like you can't shut that thing off.Margie: 19:42

And so I'm going to be looking in subsequent days for other ways that I can honor the legacy that she has been in my life and in my ministry.Margie: 19:53

So I am praying that, even though this was a personal privilege moment for this crabby pastor, that I have said some things to encourage you to not walk this path alone to find that person that you can be totally honest with that person that can then be a gift to you, because there's no way I could capture everything that Kathy was to me.Margie: 20:27

There's no way I can capture everything, but she was an incredible blessing and that would be my prayer for you, for your ministry, for your life, so that it can ripple out into your friends, your family and the people to whom God has called you to serve. Hey, thanks for listening. It is my deep desire and passion to champion issues of sustainability in ministry and for your life, so I'm here to help. I stepped back from pastoral ministry and I feel called to help ministry leaders create and cultivate sustainability in their lives so that they can go the distance with God and whatever plans that God has for you. I would love to help, I would consider it an honor and, in all things, make sure you connect to these sustainability practices you know, so that you don't become the Crabby Pastor.

View Details

Do you ever feel like the pressure of ministry is weighing you down? This episode is your lifeline! Join me, Margie Bryce, for a soul-refreshing conversation on self-care for ministry leaders. I'm bringing you a wealth of wisdom on building resilience through hobbies, recreational activities, and focusing on single tasks that give your brain a much-needed rest from the pressures of ministry. We'll also talk about the invaluable support of a coach or spiritual director and I'll be sharing a list of suggestions on how to rally that support from your congregations.As we unpack a PDF file detailing 50 ways to Support Your Pastor

EditSignacross five dimensions of wellness, we'll redefine what success in ministry looks like - and it's not just about numbers and money. Above all, I'll drop a reminder we all need to hear from time to time: our main job is to pass the baton along to the next generation of followers of Jesus. Get ready to soak in an episode filled with insights and encouragement tailored for those who've answered the call to ministry.

For more information on the transformative Ministerial Coaching Initiative, generously supported by the Lilly Foundation and facilitated through Point Loma Nazarene's Center for Pastoral Leadership, CLICK HERE.

Support the Show.

🦀 🦀 🦀

Find regular support on my Facebook group by clicking HERE.Connect with me about COACHING and Workshops on self-care HERE.

TranscriptMargie: 0:01

Hey there, Margie Bryce here bringing you the Crabby Pastor podcast, and I don't think you're going to be too surprised to know that it's too easy today to become the Crabby Pastor. Our time together will give you food for thought to help you be the ministry leader, fully surrendered to God's purposes and living into whatever it takes to get you there and keep you there. So we're talking about sustainability in ministry. Hey there, before we get started on today's episode, I want to give you this opportunity. Today's episode, I want to give you this opportunity to enhance your self-care. Part of self-care is having another individual come alongside you, whether you're looking at a coach, a spiritual director or whatever means you have, so that you're not walking this journey alone, alone, that you have another person walking with you, and that is the ministerial coaching initiative. I've been a part of that now for this past year and as a coach, I have enjoyed walking alongside ministry leaders. This is a Lilly Foundation grant that is providing coaching through Point Loma Nazarene, their Center for Pastoral Leadership. So what I'm going to do is put a link in the show notes for where you can go to get more information. You know, tell them the Krabby Pastors sent you. They'll laugh about that, but tell them that I sent you. So this is one of the avenues where I provide coaching for ministry leaders and you know I do it independently as well and through several other places. So I wanted to offer this to you because you know, maybe you'd like to try on coaching and maybe you'd like to make a commitment to do this is eight sessions and there is a cost involved. It's a good deal because I was. I'm always about the good deal always. So you know if you're going to try on coaching, you don't want to try it on just once. You know I'm going to have one session just see how it goes. I think you're at least going to benefit from three to four to get a sense of whether it's a good fit and how it's going to operate for you. Because coaching is its own thing. It's not exactly therapy, it's not exactly a lot of stuff, but it's its own entity that helps you discover and empowers you to discover some new solutions to existing situations or how you want to manage yourself in the midst of your ministry context. So maybe you want to check this out. The link is in the show notes. It will be there through the end of the year and then the program does start in January, so that's why it's there for that long. So I hope you'll consider this.Margie: 3:11

I've been working through a PDF file that says 50 ways to support your pastor across five dimensions of welling, and I worked on a good share of it in our last episode, and I want to remind us that this connects back to episode 80, where the people at Westpath, which is an agency of the United Methodist Church, identified five dimensions of well-being Physical, financial, emotional, spiritual and social. Physical, financial, emotional, spiritual and social and these 50 ways are divided into each one of these dimensions, and I got through most of it. But what I wanted to do was finish up the social dimension here, because it's a really important area for you to consider how it is that you're supporting your own well-being. Again, I want to remind you that this document is available in the show notes and I will be sure to put that there so that you have your own copy where maybe you want to discuss some of this with your people in leadership. I wanted to go through this social dimension and I think what I want to start with this is not necessarily in order that it's on their happy sheet here and again. I do want to remind us that I think I think these apply broadly to whatever denomination or tribe, or that you hang with wherever God has planted your feet. At ministry, let's say I think these apply very broadly to the life of ministry leaders and I'm still pushing back on that 24-7 model that we have pushed into and because I think we're overly pushed into levels of success and frequently those levels of success are connected to.Margie: 5:18

Now, some books say nickels and noses, some say butts in the pew and bucks. That's another one where it's, you know, it's the money you raise, it's it's the number of people and certainly the number of people I mean it's important. On the other hand, it's good to remember and I was really reminded of this Listen to I've never listened to Christine Kane in a passing the baton sermon that she gave. It's like 11 years ago. Because I'm listening to it, I'm thinking when is it? I don't know, I'm not even was never familiar with her before. She's Australian and really great word.Margie: 5:59

But it talks about how you're passing. Your main job is that you are a person who is responsible to pass a baton along to the next generation of followers of Jesus. So that was a great, great reminder about what it is and what success really is, about being sure that the baton in the race is passed to the person coming up behind you that's going to go on ahead of you in the race. So, anyway, I just want to remind us about success and have that in proper perspective, for self-care reasons, because you want to pace yourself accordingly. You can't move far and fast carrying a very heavy load. You just you're gonna. That's the recipe for burnout, actually.Margie: 6:51

So, and that has been my passion and concern, after having served in pastoral ministry in a couple of different churches where I brought some revitalization in and got the people up and serving, because I kept thinking, well, what value would Jesus have in having a church that is just dotting its I's and crossing its T's and not really serving its community, not really serving the purposes of God? You know, god will just kind of let you dwindle away because, god's way nicer than I would be, I might be smoting, I'm smoting and thinking it's going to motivate people, which is just ridiculous, I know. But and that is why I am not God right, for sure, for sure, for sure. So God's kindness leads us to repentance, right, keep that in mind. God's kindness leads us to repentance, right, keep that in mind. Okay, I'm going to go back to these social dimensions, because you're saying what? Just get back to the list, will you the ones I want to yammer on about? In the list of social dimensions, near the end, it says and again, these are kind of instructions to people who are in charge of caring for the pastor in any local congregation Avoid scheduling church meetings or activities requiring the pastor's presence more than two nights per week.Margie: 8:17

Okay, now you know. Again, this is in honor of pace yourself. Pace yourself After having very long work days and then they roll into evenings that can very easily become at least two 12-hour days. I've seen it happen, I've lived it before, and that just anything beyond that is just more than what you need to do it. That kind of fits in with the one that was from the emotional dimension episode talking about identifying how you work with the pastor to identify which church programs and activities truly require the pastor's presence, because Because in some cases it doesn't we're trying not to be character driven or you know whatever.Margie: 9:10

Have an individual pastor, just be all that and a bag of chips, because it's too easy for people to get very attached to whoever the pastor is, and then it becomes about following the pastor, and any good pastor knows that you want your people to follow Jesus, right, not the pastor, as as much as that, you know. We secretly don't want to admit something like that. But it's nice, you know, it's nice to to get the accolades, it's nice to have the respect butades, it's nice to have the respect, but really you want your people to follow Jesus. So we're talking about how the pastor's time is used here, and this advocates no more than two nights a week should the pastor have to haul themselves out. Not only that, but many pastors have families. That, but many pastors have families.Margie: 10:07

And when the kids get to be a certain age some friends have called those the busy years, you know, where you feel like you're just driving kids and spectating. There was one year, I think I boy, I was so glad when golf season came because all I had to do was pick them up at the 18th hole. You know, know, that's it, as I had gone through oh gosh basketball. And I had gone through what else? Hockey, and I had gone through baseball season, yeah, so when it was all in one year. So, yeah, golf was a treat. I just picked them up at the end, not that I didn't want to see my kid golf, but you know, I mean that alone is taxing and you can say, well, I'll just dump that on my spouse. Yeah, no, you want to help, you want to be a part of that, you want to see that. So, anyway, avoid more than two nights a week is what they're advocating for. Avoid more than two nights a week is what they're advocating for.Margie: 11:10

Okay, welcome the pastor's spouse and family as a part of the congregation and community, without unrealistic expectations or demands such as there's a such as here, such as expecting the pastor's children to always be perfectly behaved, or expecting the spouse to be an unpaid staff member. Oh, my gosh, somebody out there is applauding that. That actually made it into ink on a paper somewhere. And I, yeah, I that expectation of an unpaid staff member. You know it's like oh, you can play the piano, wink, wink. You know why I don't get this something for nothing deal that some churches seem to have.Margie: 11:57

And I, I experienced that many years ago when I was asked well, you can be on my staff, what's the least amount that we can pay you, which I thought was. I thought this is a rude question, isn't it? And I should have. Had I been a little older you know, female I might have said something, but I wasn't. And I just felt like I had to go home and calculate something and I felt very pressured because I thought, if I get this wrong, I'm gonna, you know, not get the position. Or if I, then if I state an amount that I think is an appropriate pay, I might not get the job. Or maybe I should just say, oh, you don't have to pay me at all, which then has your congregation not ascribing a proper value to what you bring to the table. So, you know, that might not be the same in some nonprofit startups or that kind of thing, but it was. It was pressure. It was pressure for, you know, wink, wink, how cheap can we get you? Which I think is an incredibly rude question. And the rude thing is a big deal, because it's love is patient, love is kind, love is not rude.Margie: 13:20

Just saying, let's see, encourage the pastor's participation in a clergy accountability support group and allow him or her time during the work week to participate. So, pastors, if you are attending a clergy accountability or support group in some fashion that counts as your work hours. That's part of what you are being, I guess I want to say paid for. You know that is a part of your work is to stay connected to other pastors and be accountable and get the support that you need from other people and have a place that you can again process and you do not have to get off the clock to do that.Margie: 14:08

Just saying Encourage the pastor to socialize with others outside the church in quotes, family with whom he or she can step outside the pastoral role for a period of time, and this is important. This is a self-care thing. What happens when you socialize? Because that kind of goes hand in hand with the next one. So let me just include that for the sake of conversation. It's not really conversation, it's a monologue. This is a monologue, but for the sake of my monologue here, understand that the social events with church members, although it's fun for everyone, are not always truly social events for the pastor, who can be pulled into the pastoral role at any time, and that's a thing. That is definitely a thing that you get pulled into a pastoral role when you are with church members.Margie: 15:11

Not not always, not 100% of the time, because I know somebody saying well, I, you know my doesn't work that way for me. Well, yay for that and for you about that. But in many cases what happens is you know you put the pastor hat off and then you put the pastor hat on and you know it's a matter of am I now on or off? And we need some off time. We need time where we can take the pastoral hat off. So that's why it's important to socialize with others outside of your church family. They also say respect the pastor's time, set aside to spend time with their family. Our first line of ministry is our family. Really, I can't tell you how many pastoral families have really suffered because pastors have, you know, set those things aside to the detriment of their families and their marriages. That is not. I don't think that is God-honoring, I just don't. So you want to, for sure, support that, support the pastor. Also. Here's another one Support the pastor in getting out of town regularly, particularly when serving in a small town, so they can engage in activities outside the church's direct mission field.Margie: 16:41

Just saying you need to step back from the work environment. Yes, it's a calling, yes, it's a vocation, but it's also a demanding one, and you need to just step back for a moment. I think about when Jesus stepped back from the throngs of people wanting stuff from him and went up to the mountain and prayed. Now maybe that wasn't social, but maybe he brought a disciple or two. Then it is sort of that's a bit of a stretch, but you kind of get the picture. Even Jesus stepped back for a minute and had to come up for air. And if Jesus had to come up for air, then I think we do as well. We do as well and I'm going to finish up with this one.Margie: 17:31

Nobody ever encouraged me to do this but encourage the pastor to engage in hobbies and enjoyable recreational activities outside the church setting, and this is a facet of self-care that I label as create and dream. You need to have a hobby or something where, when you do it, you lose track of time, and that's because you can only focus on that one thing, not on the 50 or more things at the church that are calling for your attention at the church that are calling for your attention. And by focusing on just one thing, actually neuroscience says your brain rests a bit from the demand of a heavy load or lots of things on your to-do list. All of that becomes for a time non-existent and you can just focus on one thing exclusively, so I'm going to leave that there. There's way more on that list and maybe you'd like a copy so that you can see that someone actually did write these things down People in official capacity, people who care deeply for the well-being of those who serve in churches and church plants, and so these are suggestions.Margie: 19:00

I guess I think they're more than suggestions. Really, I think it's more of a list of. This is the way it ought to run folks it out of, run folks and how to support your, your ministry leader, your main pastor in your church. So maybe this episode and the one before is something you want to share with church board members. You could use the podcast for a discussion, along with the 50 ways sheet, and use that to talk through the things on the list here that you want to own and maybe the things that you don't, and talk through why that is, and that way you can get the support that you need from your congregation leaders.Margie: 19:56

Hey, friends, the Crabby Pastor podcast is sponsored by Bryce Art Glass and you can find that on Facebook.Margie: 20:05

I make stained glass as part of my self-care, and also by Bryce Coaching, where I coach ministry leaders and business leaders, and so the funds that I generate from coaching and from making stained glass is what is supporting this podcast and I will have opportunities for you to be a part of sponsoring me and, as always, you can do the buy me a cup of coffee thing in the show notes.Margie: 20:39

But I will have some other ways that you can be a part of getting the word out about the importance of healthy self-care for ministry leaders. Self-care for ministry leaders. Hey, thanks for listening. It is my deep desire and passion to champion issues of sustainability in ministry and for your life, so I'm here to help. I stepped back from pastoral ministry and I feel called to help ministry leaders create and cultivate sustainability in their lives so that they can go the distance with God and whatever plans that God has for you. I would love to help, I would consider it an honor and in all things, make sure you connect to these sustainability practices you know, so that you don't become the Crabby Pastor.

View Details

Send us a Text Message.

Are you determined to steer clear of becoming the 'Crabby Pastor,' exhausted and irritable? If so, this episode (which is Part 1 of a two-part series) will help guide you to sustain yourself in the demanding world of ministry.

We start with a look at 50 Ways to Support Your Pastor Across Five Dimensions of Well-Being: social, physical, financial, emotional, and spiritual—that will fortify your pastoral journey. This is a document available HERE which was produced by Wespath, an agency concerned with pastoral well-being associated with the United Methodist Church.

As our conversation unfolds, we put a spotlight on the vital art of setting boundaries. Explore the significance of rest, rejuvenation, and self-renewal in your pastoral care routine. Discover the secrets of planning vacations effectively while ensuring seamless pastoral care coverage in your absence. Uncover the emotional fortitude needed in ministry, and harness valuable resources like coaches, counselors, and spiritual guides.

In conclusion, we emphasize the invaluable concept of renewal leaves. Tune in now to master the art of balancing pastoral responsibilities with self-care, ensuring you never succumb to becoming the 'Crabby Pastor.' Your rejuvenated ministry journey begins here.

Support the Show.

🦀 🦀 🦀

Find regular support on my Facebook group by clicking HERE.Connect with me about COACHING and Workshops on self-care HERE.

View Details

Have you ever found yourself so immersed in the demands of ministry leadership that your own spirit starts to fray at the edges? In this episode, we're joined by the insightful Paul Kuzma, a pastoral counselor who has weathered the storm of burnout himself. Together, our conversation weaves personal narratives and practical wisdom into a tapestry of guidance for any ministry leader seeking harmony between their calling and personal well-being.

Join us as we explore the fullness of life beyond the pulpit – from cultivating friendships outside the congregation to embracing passions that rejuvenate the soul. We'll tackle the high-stakes stresses of pastoral duties and discuss how to strike that essential balance, setting the stage for a ministry that's not only vibrant but sustainable in the long run.

Whether you're a seasoned minister or just beginning to feel the weight of your calling, there's a message here for you. We're peeling back the layers on pastoral self-care and uncovering how taking a step back can propel you forward, ensuring that your ministry is a reflection of a well-tended heart and spirit.

Join us for an episode that promises to fortify your ministry and, perhaps, help you steer clear of becoming a Crabby Pastor.

Support the Show.

🦀 🦀 🦀

Find regular support on my Facebook group by clicking HERE.Connect with me about COACHING and Workshops on self-care HERE.

TranscriptMargie: 0:01

This is your invitation to join me in my glass workshop for a video series, where I am going to do a stained glass project while I talk to you about sustainability and building sustainability into your heart and into your life. So I am going to be doing my art, which is a form of self-care, and I'm going to invite you into that space with me and I'm going to chat. I'm going to chat about self-care and I'm going to show you how I create, and there's a nifty, nifty analogy. Stained glass seems to be a very good metaphor for what I want to talk about, so I'd love for you to join me to do that, and often I'll need you to email me at CrabbyPastor at gmail.Margie: 1:47

That's CrabbyPastor at gmail cot com. So you won't want to miss this. You definitely won't want to miss this. So make a plan to join me in the glass workshop. This is Margie Bryce, again with the Crabby Pastor podcast, because we are wanting fewer and fewer pastors to be Crabby. Even if you're just Crabby on the inside, that counts too. I'd like to think it doesn't, but we're all trained to do the non-anxious presence thing right. So I'm committed to that, and I have with me Paul Kuzma, who is going to share with us a back to burn back from burnout, not back to burnout. That's a whole different episode, isn't it?Paul Kuzma: 2:37

It is, there is.Margie: 2:39

Yeah, so another back from burnout episode. So, paul, I'm going to ask you to introduce yourself. Tell us what you're doing right now in ministry.Paul Kuzma: 2:50

Yeah, margie, thanks so much for the privilege and the honor of getting to connect with you and your listeners and to get to share some of my story in hopes that it will help a few.Paul Kuzma: 3:02

So I am a in terms of what I do. I am a four square pastor At my core. I started pastoring way back in 1985, graduated from Bible college in 1987 and ended up in full time vocational ministry out of four square church in CME Valley, california, where I spent eight years on staff as a youth pastor, four years as associate pastor before I became senior pastor of that same church, and in those first 12 years that I was on staff I had worked with the three previous senior pastors. All those transitions were painful. Before I ended up, we'll get in a little bit more of my burnout story three and a half years after I became senior pastor. What I do today is I serve full time as director and certified pastoral counselor at Center for Spiritual Renewal East, which is a retreat center for four square pastors and their families that's located in, of all places, christiansburg, virginia.Margie: 4:20

I saw that and I thought well, isn't that interesting. Was that? Were you there before it was named the town?Paul Kuzma: 4:27

No, no, christiansburg was established way back in the if I remember right sometime in the late 1700s. And we're tucked into the southwest corner of the Commonwealth of Virginia and we're better known for our next door neighbor, blacksburg, which is the home of the Virginia tech Hokies Go Hokies.Margie: 4:54

Hokies With a K.Paul Kuzma: 4:56

That's correct. H-o-k-i-e -S. So what's a Hokie? You know that's so fun that you've just asked me that question. Margie, I'm going to give you the official answer.Margie: 5:09

Okay.Paul Kuzma: 5:10

We don't know. Oh that is the. You can Google it.Margie: 5:16

What is a Hokie official?Paul Kuzma: 5:17

answer what's a? What's a Virginia tech Hokie.Margie: 5:20

I mean, I keep asking my husband what's a Whitney lion as opposed to a regular lion? There you go, there you go. You're like what.Paul Kuzma: 5:27

Our mascot for the Virginia tech Hokies is a turkey, and the reason for that is because before the name Hokies they were called the, the Virginia tech goblers.Margie: 5:42

So the question is is that an improvement to Hokie? I don't know.Paul Kuzma: 5:49

Wow, I love it we offer up to a week a year of free lodging very nicely, kind of plushed out apartment that a pastor or their family members get fully to themselves. They can come for anything from a study break to some Sabbath rest to to crisis management dealing with some kind of crisis. If they'd like counseling, I'm the primary counselor on the campus, serving in that whole full time.Paul Kuzma: 6:47

Okay, a little part time slice of my life, margie. I work with a guy by the name of Pete Scazzero. Pete and his wife are the founders of a ministry that today is called emotionally healthy discipleship. Yeah, and it really crosses well with my work with our four sport pastors. Emotionally healthy discipleship is based on the premise that you can't separate your emotional health from your spiritual maturity. Therefore, you can't be spiritually mature while remaining emotionally immature. And that's that's got a lot of tie into my own story.Margie: 7:27

Yeah, sure, and it's scary. It's scary to boot If you think about, you know, society as a whole, or you know that's very scary. But I'm very excited to have you on, you know, as a member of the four square denomination, because I, as as this podcast, I want to serve broadly, you know, pastors of any denomination that is willing to. You know it does take a bit of humility to to say I've got issues. I need to do better with self care. I need to all of that. So I'm I'm excited about that. So I want you to talk to us, though, about your ministry context prior to burnout. So you were a senior pastor three and a half years in.Paul Kuzma: 8:17

And so, three and a half years in, I found myself in a season of having given myself to a flurry of ministry activity, as most pastors do, not knowing much about limits or boundaries at the time, and found myself in a season barely able to get out of bed many mornings, crying at the drop of a hat, getting angry about things that I didn't generally or historically get angry about, and wondering what in the world I was doing and the job I was in. Had a uh, pastoral counselor in my life at the time. I was not in any kind of official therapy or counseling, it was more of a mentor kind of relationship who sat me down and said, paul, I think you're in burnout and I didn't get here overnight Not getting out overnight and you need to look at get some help. Wow, that that was kind of the ministry context. It was, uh, season of a lot of learning to grow out of that and grow back from burnout.Margie: 10:13

Hmm, how long did it take your process? So you were told by a mentor I think you're in burnout. How long, then, did it take you to get back to some semblance of you know, normal? I'm doing air quotes over normal. I think that's a setting on the dryer, but you know.Paul Kuzma: 10:34

Well, it's been well to 2020. It was 23 years ago right now, that I was in that season. It was January, february that I uh 2001, that I hit that season. And Margie, that's a hard question to answer I I can't really put a number of how long it took me. And in some ways I still, when I share my story, say I'm in recovery.Paul Kuzma: 11:04

Hmm, because the reality is that, at least for me and a lot of pastors that I work with these days who are navigating burnout, what we realize is, once you get out of it, there's no guarantee that you don't experience some level of it again. Hmm. So in some ways I say that I'm I'm still in recovery and some of the main issues that I discovered in counseling and therapy in my initial recovery season, I'm still navigating and managing those issues that led me to burnout today that I ended up discovering. But if I can go back to my initial recovery, I would say I was in a what I called a modified sabbatical for about six months, and what I mean by modified sabbatical is I wasn't away from the church the entirety of that time but I was given freedom by my church council and my district supervisor to do what I needed to do to find my way back to health during that season of time, and I think even better than the term normal is the term noon dorm.Paul Kuzma: 12:21

Hmm, it took me about. It took me about six months to get back to a place where I said to my congregation I'm back, but it's going to look different, okay, and then it probably took me another four or five years to figure out what that different really was. There's a lot of fine tuning.Margie: 12:40

Sure, and how did it have to look different this time?Paul Kuzma: 12:43

I came back at the end of that month. It was an incredible time of reconnecting with Jesus as a person. But I came back and encountered a couple situations where that anger arose. It became quickly apparent to me that one month wasn't enough. But even when I took my one month break, I refused to call it a sabbatical, because at our church, sabbaticals were things that pastors didn't come back from. Really they were what I call reactive sabbaticals. I think there's two kinds of sabbaticals I've learned over the years.Paul Kuzma: 14:28

Reactive and proactive. And around our denomination and around the church I was at, sabbaticals were things that pastors they were disciplinary in nature. We had to put a pastor on sabbatical versus being proactive and planning to engage seasons of sabbatical every handful of years. We just haven't had that kind of history in our denomination. So when it became apparent that the one month wasn't enough, I ended up working out an idea that I called a modified sabbatical, which again meant that I wasn't preaching every week like I previously was, and I was free to make decisions about my schedule on a day-to-day basis. It allowed me to follow my body, see my doctor, so I started getting physical in place.Paul Kuzma: 15:27

At the time I had high blood pressure First time in my life I faced that. I started being treated for that and then also began to see a therapist for the first time. A therapist's office is a place that I'd never gone to for myself, even though I told hundreds of people over the years to go there. So it was in therapy that I started to be introduced to the concept of family systems theory and my family of origin. My first therapist knew a genogram with me discovered I had played the role of savior in my family of origin oh, interesting, and ended up discovering how common it is that we take the role that we played in our family of origin into the rest of our life, in our adult years, and how I had become in my mind, without ever, almost subconsciously, wanting to be or thinking I was called to be the savior for this congregation who had painful pastoral history.Margie: 16:37

Yeah, yeah, and you know we're fixers, we're fixers, but except when it comes to ourselves and we're in a situation and or we're broken or whatever. I mean, I just did this. I just did this again, you know, and I thought you know, because I can easily say wow, you know, passers don't this and they don't go for help and they don't, you know, reach out for coaching. They don't reach out for what they need. They're a tough audience to minister to. And then I turned around and realized I'm talking about myself again, because I just did it again.Paul Kuzma: 17:14

He said well, he said, paul, we've talked about a lot of things over these two weeks in your life, in your approach to ministry, that need to change for you to last long term. He said more pain means that you're gonna go home and be tempted to keep doing life and ministry the way you've always done and it will be painful for you To call yourself out and do it differently. He said more loss of relationship means that I'm I'm sending you home to a congregation that's only known pastor Paul one way for 15 years, and when you start to do life in ministry differently, you're gonna have some people who aren't gonna like it and that's probably gonna lead to some loss of relationship. Well, this guy could not have been.Paul Kuzma: 19:07

This former pastor now serving as a therapist could not have been more prophetic, margie one of those Become kind of a mantra of my story that I, that I joke with a little bit I I'll often say over the next four or five years we learned how to grow a church from about four or five hundred people to about 200.Margie: 19:34

And I'm not being facetious about the growth.Paul Kuzma: 19:36

I think I do get a growth For the congregation. We we did not have one church split. We didn't have a Sunday where like half of people didn't show up, right, but what we did have was Kind of decision by decision or conflict by conflict. We'd have people that would make decisions that Paul's not doing life in ministry the same way he's always done it. One of the things that I began to address In therapy was how much of a conflict avoid and how I didn't see conflict as healthy or normal or natural. I Saw it as you know. Conflict means that there's a problem.Margie: 20:23

Mm-hmm.Paul Kuzma: 20:24

So when I began to start to take a healthy view of conflict and learn conflict management, that was different for people that I would actually began to address conflict as it arose. I Not saying I did it all perfectly right. There were people that I heard that I've had to return to and and reconcile with to the best of my ability. But it just began to do it differently and it I it produced results that you know weren't always Up and to the right I could put it that way.Margie: 21:03

So what? What else did you do differently?Paul Kuzma: 21:07

Yeah. So, russ, my first couple days there, asked me if I'd ever read a book by John Townsend and Henry Cloud called boundaries.Paul Kuzma: 21:18

Hmm, and I said man Ross, that's such a great book. I Recommend that book all the time. And he said, okay, but have you ever read the book? I said, man, that's got some great chapters in it. I I've passed chapters in that book to people. He said, paul, if you ever read the book boundaries? I Said nah, not really no.Paul Kuzma: 21:44

And that became that book became foundational for me, margie, to begin to realize that Boundaries are an important part of health and self-care. So, you know, I began to put boundaries in place around you know some of my hours. I began to learn about Sabbath and its importance and began to institute and implement Sabbath practice. I began to recognize that a couple of the personal issues that it led me into Into burnout had to do with work addiction and Perfectionism and began to address those areas in my life, a very practical thing that I started to do.Paul Kuzma: 22:33

Interestingly that I've now gone into counseling. At the time I was doing a lot of counseling and began to realize how much of a time and energy drain it was. And then at that season I was not the best counselor for people. So I began to refer people to counseling Instead of doing the counseling myself, and that was one boundary that I was Working with in a fresh and new way in my life. So so those were. Those were some of the things that I began to change about how I was approaching life and ministry.Margie: 23:12

Yeah, and I'm curious too about you said work, workaholic and and I think many pastors are Encumbered with a productivity mindset you know I can do that. At the end of the day, you know, I look at was I productive today? Was this a productive day? And I, you know, maybe there were good things that were sown into the day. Yes that will lead to other things in the future. But the North American Mindset towards productivity is a little and it's impacted ministry in the church.Paul Kuzma: 23:51

Yes, that's absolutely right. The the, the Western mindset of productivity. I would add to that list of factors driving work addiction and workaholism for pastors.Paul Kuzma: 24:03

I would add to that the, the history of the church growth movement in America and the Maybe the filter of productivity that's been placed over that, that everything that every healthy church Grows and that should be in numbers as well, right I? I think I actually have learned for myself. I've become more convinced that there's a place for the small church in America. I Think another layer or factor on this issue of work addiction is how in the world Can you work, can I work too much for God? I Mean if, if I just put in the work, he'll pick up the rest of the pieces right, he'll take care of everything else.Paul Kuzma: 24:53

When we look at some of our historical figures around American Christianity and some of the popular evangelists, pastors, ministers, you know they adopted the mindset I'd rather Burn out than rust out. Some of those kinds of things were, were models for me. So, so I think those were, those were all factors in the work addiction. Peace as well, my own family of origin, watching my, my mom and dad Work and work and work and work with the nose to the grindstone, those, those were factors for my own work addiction as well so you did.Margie: 25:43

You did a lot of introspection, a lot of Work on your self-awareness. Yes, you know why you do the things, you do in the way that you do them, and Then decided to pull back on what wasn't healthy.Paul Kuzma: 25:59

Yes, I started realizing that the the the best gift that I can give to anybody else in my life is a healthy me. Absolutely, absolutely, because you, there's people all around you, your family, your friends, the people that you're called to lead in ministry and those relationships matter right, right, the analogy of anytime anybody gets on an airplane and you get that safety briefing and if the oxygen mask Drops down, please make sure you put your own oxygen mask on before you put it on, before you help somebody else.Margie: 26:44

Right.Paul Kuzma: 26:45

I think that's so important for pastors, ministers, to pick up that analogy, that we can't help Others if we can't Help ourselves. Right, we can't kick the well for others if we're not care for ourselves.Margie: 27:04

Right, right. Well, so you talked a lot about you're still in recovery, which means that also that you know your You're Acquiring that level of self-awareness is something that you chronically Attend to yes, it is.Paul Kuzma: 27:27

So one of the things that means for me very practically is that I still see my therapist to this day, and I learned about 12, 13 years ago when I went into school for counseling. I wasn't aware that the counselors, as you're going through school, you're required to be in therapy yourself and I thought how, how profound is that? That I'm, I'm, it's another level of self-care. I the the propensity of pastors that I work with who have an aversion to Therapy and counseling. It's pretty strong. I've come to the place now, margie, where I tell pastors all the time I've become convinced that every pastor needs a therapist. As a matter of fact, just that, you answered the call, the ministry tells me you need a therapist.Margie: 28:30

Oh, okay. Well, now I'm gonna have to ask you to say more about that.Paul Kuzma: 28:34

The reality is that we're all humans. One of my distant early mentors in the work that I do now is was a guy by the name of Archibald Hart, and he served out the bulk of his career as the director of the school of psychology of Fuller Theological Seminary in Pasadena, did a lot of research Around pastors and a lot of counseling in this area, and he used to say I heard him say to Multiple groups of pastors over the years.Paul Kuzma: 30:11

Margie, pastors don't get into trouble because they forget that they're pastors. Pastors get into trouble because they forgot that they're people hmm, we forget that we're human.Margie: 30:24

So so you did, you did your counseling, you did your sabbatical, which I think it started out a revised sabbatical, but then I'm into more of a sabbatical after that, and what are some other things that you did to address your burnout, or did we pretty much get them?Paul Kuzma: 31:18

Yeah, I would. I would say I began to, I began to look at my year every year in the In the scope of the rhythms.Paul Kuzma: 31:30

What would the rhythm of my year look like? And I began to build in a rhythm of rest and retreat. So I started to take one or two three to five day study breaks each year where I would get out of town somewhere. I called it a study break, for lack of a better term. What it was was an ability to get out of town where the pressure was. I believe in that old Western term of getting out of dodge, the thing about getting out of our everyday, getting out of the demands of home and giving yourself some freedom to follow your body in terms of rest for those days to work when you feel you have the energy for work. So there was study that took place within that break. I often plan out my next four to six months of sermon themes. Take a look at what the vacation calendar looks like for our family over the next several months. I started to take vacation rather than minimize vacation.Margie: 32:40

Rather than getting the medal for not taking vacation. That's absolutely right.Paul Kuzma: 32:44

It was early enough in what was happening around the Scazzero' s at that time that I was able to get to know him a little bit personally, started to ask him how he was applying this concept of emotionally healthy, discipling people and their emotional health to ministry life and began to apply a lot of those principles Over those years as his notoriety grew a little bit more. He asked if I would just take some phone calls and emails from pastors that are wondering the same things that I was wondering and that I was actually applying. And so today I serve as director of a small group of volunteers pastors who have applied and integrated what we call the Emotionally Healthy Discipleship course into our church's discipleship pathways, and we talk with pastors around the US and Canada about doing that same thing, so that has helped me as well. It's another practical way that I've just continued to engage that in my own personal life the concept of seeing my emotional health as a point of discipleship.Paul Kuzma: 34:43

Sure sure, and it's separated from my followership of Jesus.Margie: 34:49

Right, right and you get to see Jesus do redemption.Margie: 34:53

That's right Of a challenging situation. Yes, so here we are, a bit after COVID, I mean to the point where I think the throngs at Christmas, you know, during this recent Christmas season, have returned or close to returned, even though numbers still are not where they were before. But you know, and that's where my concern is, you know how hard are pastors working to thinking that what they do is going to get everybody to come back, whether that's an additional burden that pastors are carrying right now. But I would like to see what you would say are the top three things that you might say to ministry leaders today maybe, who are wondering if they're dealing with burnout or just in terms of their work-life balance maybe. So what are your top three pieces of advice that you would offer to ministers?Paul Kuzma: 35:59

And then another mantra that I picked up in my relationship with Pete Schazzaro would essentially say that the state you are in is the state that you give to others. So if you're an anxious person, that will make you an anxious pastor, and it's important to realize again that who you are will inform what you do. So invest in you. Number one, and I think you know. I come back to the mantra I mentioned earlier. I think every pastor needs a therapist. If it's a therapist, a counselor, life coach, you know different seasons of your life and leadership might demand different relationships. Take the more spiritual director.Margie: 37:53

I could mess this up. And so I got you know the people to journey with me. I mean, this is, out of proverbs, the counsel of many as wise, and so I thought, well, we're loading up. But it is important not to journey alone, because you get stuck inside your own head and sometimes that's not a great place to be at all.Paul Kuzma: 38:35

The mantra used for that is your head is a dangerous place, don't ever go there alone. Yeah, the second thing I would say is that it's so important to be honest with yourself about the, about stress and its impact, and how stressful ministry can be and is, and then figure out what works for you to navigate and manage that stress and cope with that stress in healthy ways. I mentioned Arch Hart a little bit ago. He's written several books. What I consider is Cornerstone's work of Arch's life is in a book called the Hidden Link Between a Dreadel in Stress. While he spent the final bulk of his career as a clinical psychologist and dean of the School of Psychology out there Fuller, he started his career as a scientist and then he ended up mixing those two disciplines and did some research about the impact of adrenaline to our stress management.Margie: 39:41

So that's the Hidden Link Between Adrenaline and Stress.Paul Kuzma: 39:47

Arch was one of the earliest folks that I heard talking to pastors about the concept of self-care. He would often say Margie. He would say, pastor, please don't confuse your adrenaline with the anointing on Sunday morning. That's funny. So the impact of stress on your physical body. I would say that that would be the second piece of advice that I would give to pastors that are recognizing burnout and its impact, and then I would say you know the number three thing I think would be found in a couple of questions. One is what are you doing for fun in your life? I know I tend to take myself way too seriously.Paul Kuzma: 41:22

So I have to really lean into having some fun in my life to supplement stress and handle, cope with stress in more healthy ways. But then I would also ask the question for pastors. I ask them regularly who are your friends outside of ministry, who are not projects?Margie: 41:46

That's a good question.Paul Kuzma: 41:47

Who is your friend outside of your church, outside of your ministry? That's not the guy on the treadmill next to you that you carry a gym membership to lead people to Jesus. Who is the friend in your life? That's not somebody you're meeting at the coffee house. You know to disciple them on a weekly basis. Who are your friends outside of ministry? I'll tell you. It's become more and more important over time, especially given that one of the most significant pieces of research coming to the surface over the last few years is how lonely and isolated ministry can be. Absolutely so. When I'm asking pastors that question, margie, I'm regularly having pastors saying I have no one, I do not have friends. The people that are in my life are there because I'm a pastor.Margie: 42:46

And how well do pastors cope with attempting to find friends who are not projects, who are not part of their church?Paul Kuzma: 42:58

Yeah, it has to come back to the idea of what you do matters, but who you are matters more. So I find that the many, many pastors, before they can even navigate into the practicality of where do I find those friends? We have to wade through a little bit of a marsh, maybe for some pastors, a swamp of. I am what I do, yeah, Period, and I find my identity. If I'm not pastoring, I don't know who. I am One of my. I've had three different therapists over the course of the last couple of decades, plus One of my early therapists. I'll never forget how, in one session he, he it was. It felt like a slap in the face, Margie, when he said to me Paul, I can always tell the health of your soul when you talk about doing something other than string. I felt like a slap in the face because when he said that, I realized, oh my goodness, I am talking about doing something other than God's call oh my.Paul Kuzma: 44:17

Is it okay to talk about that? And my therapist just told me it's okay to talk about that. It's actually healthy to talk about. If you weren't, if you weren't in pastoral medicine, what would you do?Margie: 44:28

Right. Sell insurance no Right.Paul Kuzma: 44:32

But so I I think that's something that carries us through waiting, through the marsh or the swamp of who am I apart from what I do? And that's just such an important question to answer. So before we, a lot of pastors, before they can ever figure out, how do I find those friends? We have to go through the journey, and it is a journey, a process, a journey of transformation. To get to the place of recognizing who I am is more important than what I do.Margie: 45:07

That's that is. That is huge, and you know I'm going to stop us on that note. This is a good place to stop it. You've just really given us a lot of food for thought here as we've talked, and I have a feeling at some point I'll be tapping you on the shoulder again to join us some more Awesome. So I want to really, really thank you for being willing to share your story and and the things that you learned along the way, in the hopes of other people grasping onto some of these concepts and really thinking them through. So thank you very much.Paul Kuzma: 45:48

Absolutely so welcome. Thank you for connecting and having me on.Margie: 45:53

Hey friends, the Crabby Pastor podcast is sponsored by Bryce Art Glass and you can find that on Facebook I make stained glass, that's part of my self-care and also by Bryce Coaching, where I coach ministry leaders and business leaders, and so the funds that I generate from coaching and from making stained glass is what is supporting this podcast and I will have opportunities for you to be a part of sponsoring me and, as always, you can do the Buy Me a Cup of Coffee thing in the show notes.Margie: 48:17

But I will have some other ways that you can be a part of getting the word out about the importance of healthy self-care for ministry leaders. Hey, thanks for listening. It is my deep desire and passion to champion issues of sustainability in ministry and for your life, so I'm here to help. I stepped back from pastoral ministry and I feel called to help ministry leaders create and cultivate sustainability in their lives so that they can go the distance with God and whatever plans that God has for you. I would love to help, I would consider it an honor and, in all things, make sure you connect to these sustainability practices you know, so that you don't become the Crabby pastor.

View Details

Rev. Tanner Griffin courageously shares his battles with burnout and the personal and professional toll it took on his life. Reverend Griffin provides an unfiltered look at the inefficacies within church organizational health and the immense pressures that pushed him to step away from full-time ministry, despite his best efforts at time management and boundary-setting.Throughout our conversation, we underscore the critical importance of self-care and Sabbath-keeping in ministry. Despite cultural pressures and busy schedules, the biblical mandate for rest remains essential. Rev. Griffin's insights, along with our discussion on organizational dysfunction and the pressures of being a "fixer," provide a comprehensive examination of the complexities pastors face and the journey toward rediscovering a true sense of purpose and calling. Tune in for an episode that promises to offer valuable lessons in recognizing burnout and prioritizing spiritual rejuvenation.Support the Show.This is a GUILT-FREE zone! So here's your friendly nudge about self-care and its importance for the sake of your family, friends, and those you serve in ministry.Get your FREE Burnout Questionnaire to help you assess whether you are dealing with just general tiredness or something MORE. CLICK HERE FOR THE BURNOUT QUESTIONNAIRE.I love scouring around to find great content to share, and am always interested in feedback, if you are or know of someone willing to share their Back from Burnout story so we can all learn together, then CLICK HERE to email me.And, if this is a reminder you wish to opt out of, that's fine too.Blessings on your journey!Margie🦀 🦀 🦀Find regular support on my Facebook group by clicking HERE.Connect with me about COACHING and Workshops on self-care HERE.

TranscriptMargie: 0:01

Okay, well, thanks for having me with this conversation. Like I said, I'm Tanner Griffin. I'm an ordained elder in the Church of the Nazarene.Tanner: 1:39

For the past seven years I've been a senior pastor at a couple different churches rural Indiana and then, most recently, you know, kind of central Michigan more on the western side, I guess but as of two, three months ago, I made the decision to step out of full-time pastoral ministry and move back home, and a big part of that and this is where it connects with where your podcast has been has been coming to the realization that I was in burnout, that it was affecting my family and, despite my best efforts over the last several years of learning better time management skills and all the different things setting boundaries I listened to a million podcasts, read a million books, tried to do everything I could to keep myself healthy I ended up in that burnout category and so kind of reinventing life here, but also, for the first time in a while, feeling excited about what's ahead and really living into that sense of calling.Tanner: 2:48

So it's kind of ironic when you tell people that you're stepping away from full-time ministry, they often ask you know, is it a faith crisis? Or, you know, are you upset about, you know, is it doubt or whatever and honestly it was an attempt to be faithful, right. I feel like God was moving us in a different direction and gave me a more clarified vision of how I should be spending my time and be steward of this call.Margie: 3:16

I like that. I like that it's tied to call and sometimes God does move us in unexpected ways and to unexpected places, and then you still can come out of that with a strong sense of there was purpose in the mess that I just walked through and that's kind of a neat thing to behold after the fact. It may not be so great while you're trudging through it. Trudging through the mess, it's not so fun there. But yeah, I liked a lot of what you had to say then about call. So why don't you start then at the very beginning? Because what happens is you can say burnout and nobody sees burnout coming in themselves, or when they're in the midst of it. Maybe if you have a very brave administrative assistant or your family say hey, this is your, this is not good, but otherwise you don't see it coming. So why don't you take us back to start where you'd like us to start?Tanner: 4:28

Okay, I mean to focus on kind of the sneaking up on burnout thing, because I agree with you, you don't see it coming and, like I said before we started recording, I've really struggled to apply that term to myself for a while because I felt like it had different implications. Apply that term to myself for a while because I felt like it had different implications. But I felt called to pastoral ministry and it was kind of a little bit later in life. I had family when we first entered into full-time ministry my wife and three kids. The oldest was 11, 10, and the youngest was a year old and I had a three-year-old in the middle there.Tanner: 5:07

And so you know, we moved the family and you know, at this church and as is typical of a lot of medium small churches now, there's just a lot of you know, the catchy phrase is deferred maintenance and that applies to physical structures, but there's a lot of I would call deferred maintenance in community organizational life as well. So the organizational health, it, just it just there were some things that needed attention and, as we are kind of have a tendency to do, um, those are the things we wanted to avoid, you know, pretend like didn't exist and actually, you know, I had a member of the church board upset with me at one point because he said why would you, why would you say we had this problem? And I was like because we do? You know, it was just one of those, one of those realities where you know, naming it which seemed like an obvious step for me was the was the major triggering thing for folks, and so well, sure, sure.Margie: 6:02

And then you're, you're what? What I think has happened and you captured this when we talked before the podcast that what has happened is other people have left things unattended and just passed it along to the next person, to the next pastor, to the next pastor, to the next pastor. So you know, I mean you're talking or thinking about a compounding snowball, almost.Tanner: 6:28

Yeah, and I think I think I always want to avoid the sense of like the pastor that was there before me didn't do the right thing or something. I don't want to give that impression. I just think, like when, when we go in, especially if it's somebody that you know felt a call to ministry early on and went to school, went to seminary, and then you walk into a church and you're ready to preach and teach and pray and you know this is what you've been trained for, study scriptures and all those types of things, and then you're suddenly met with you know budgets and buildings and you know all those types of things. I think pastors are naturally gravitate towards the pastoral things, and so the things that that I've wrestled the most with weren't in that area, but it was more of the you know organizational. You know I put in my note to you that the you know I kind of got tired of running a religious organization and that's that's the side of things that seems to get neglected or where there's the greatest need, I guess.Margie: 7:30

Sure, sure, because you're talking about organizational stuff and you can come in and sometimes there's organizational dysfunction.Tanner: 7:39

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.Tanner: 7:41

And so you know you set about trying to tackle those things, and you know there's people that I mean, I think people have unrealistic expectations of what a senior pastor can do, especially a solo senior pastor. You know, run the business of the church, do all the spiritual things, visit folks, convince people to come back to the church that have left, and then somehow, on a Sunday, show up and have a you know, a sermon that you know compares to whoever you can see online you know what I mean. Like that's it. They've spent a whole, you know whatever month preparing for that one talk or something, anyways, and so it's just a heavy expectation. And, as that being my first pastoral, full-time pastoral role, I wanted to be good at it, you know, and so I wanted to be successful and I worked really hard, you know, to try and meet all those expectations, which just that's a bad strategy. And so I had to start learning about boundaries and prioritizing my own goals and being okay with some people being upset with me, you know I did like what you wrote here.Margie: 8:58

You wrote because I was kind of this myself with, but with any church that that I was over, I felt like I had the choice of getting people to like me or doing what was right for the church and that's a real big picture, focus, mile high view, so to speak. While I can not address this and just let it continue to perpetuate, or I can address this and it'll be challenging, it'll be a little bit hard, but at the end of the day it's going to position this church and put them in a better place and you know that's a pastoral urging as well.Tanner: 9:40

Yeah, and so the first church I was at, the financial situation was the reality it had. The church finances had been an issue for a while but it had a daycare center that was providing revenue to keep it afloat. But then the community, the local school district, got a grant to do daycare at the school where it was costing parents almost nothing and it just kind of gutted the daycare at the school where it was costing parents almost nothing and it just kind of gutted the daycare at that at that time. And so the month before we closed on our house into this area so we'd been at the church for three months maybe I saw my first full like financial snapshot. And you know the church spent thousands of dollars more than it brought in. And here I am going to buy this house with my, you know, with my family and I'm like I don't think the church can afford us. And that was the battle from from day one. You know there was times where, you know the church, our bank account was 15 bucks.Margie: 10:40

You know there was times where your personal one or the church, the church, the church one.Tanner: 10:46

Yeah, like we we, we were in a in a tight place, and so I spent a lot of time digging into the budget Right, because it just wasn't the budget process, it wasn't something that was strong in this church, and so I spent a lot of time trying to get my head around the financials and, you know, people started posting passive, aggressively on social media. You know it's hard, it's hard to, it's hard to love your people when all you want to do is look at spreadsheets and I was like I know what you're saying, but like if the church closes, like if we run out of it's just so.Tanner: 11:23

It's that type of thing that just wears on you. Like I was determined that fixing the financial realities was step number one, Like that was going to be the biggest barrier, and I took hits along the way because people didn't think that I should be spending that much time on that. So it was just one of those those things where I had to, very early on, say, am I going to do what's best for the church or am I going to set about developing relationships with people so that I do what they want me to do? You know, looking back, I don't think I would have known this at the time, but looking back I saw that the stress and the I would say I was bordering on burnout then.Tanner: 12:07

But then COVID hit and you know, initially that caused stress and anxiety to spike, Cause it's like, what are we doing? But then we went through the season where, you know, everything existed online and things calmed down. We weren't doing 19 things a week, we weren't doing all this. It was just, you know, let's get what we have to do to get a Sunday service, you know, shared out online or whatever. And so I think I actually found rest during that COVID season. Again, I wouldn't have noticed that what isn't said that at the time. But I think looking back, that I was really close to burnout there and COVID kind of gave me a reprieve.Tanner: 12:53

But then in the middle of that, you know, we got called to another church and the church we were at got adopted by a larger church campus and you know, they were able to pay off their debt and the financial situation was a lot, a lot better when we left and I started at this at this other church that finances were strong. They had a strong leadership team. It looked like a lot of structure in place, which is what was lacking at the first church. But again, that was during COVID that we made that transition, so I couldn't see all the things that were behind the scenes because nothing was happening Right, because you said that at some point you ended up leaving that second church sooner than what you planned.Margie: 13:41

But trying to pastor an unhealthy church was doing real damage to my family. I told my wife that if we didn't leave this would kill me and I was not being dramatic. There are many nights I went to bed wondering if I would wake up in the morning.Tanner: 13:58

Yeah, yeah. So I mean there's a lot in those few statements. You know we went to the church in michigan and we we thought we were going to be there. You know, in my head was till the kids graduated from high school. Like we've already moved them a couple times. It was, it seemed like a good community and we really want to put down roots. Like I'm familiar with the statistics that say the longer pastor's at a church, you know there's fruit, that happens. You know that can't happen early on. All of that. We went in there. You know they ask you when you're interviewing at a church how long you're going to stay and I said, you know, I think five years is is like the minimum for me in my mind, and not that I'm planning on using that church as a stepping stone to another place. I think that's what they were concerned about.Tanner: 14:43

But but yeah, like I found myself two of my three kids were wrestling with tremendous amount of anxiety and on medication or seeing counseling. I started seeing a counselor and was on medication. I ended up in the emergency room one night panic attack, I don't know what it was, anxiety, whatever, but like my pulse wouldn't come down. It was like I was running a marathon. It just stayed there and my wife finally had enough and said you're going.Tanner: 15:13

So we went, like that was a huge wake up call, because I thought I just wasn't feeling great. I just thought I wasn't. You know myself, but if I get a little bit of rest, or I solve this problem or I get a vacation or whatever, like I'd be back to normal, but like I just wasn't, wasn't snapping back. And my dad passed away at a pretty young age in his in his sleep. He had a heart attack at the age of 44 while sleeping. And so that, like my statement in my head, like it it it sounds dramatic saying well, gonna go to sleep and I don't know if I'll wake up.Tanner: 15:46

But like I thought that at night there was nights where you know I'm like, if I close my eyes, will I ever open them again? Like it was just I knew I was unhealthy, um, physically, emotionally, mentally. I knew I wasn't the dad that I wanted to be, I definitely wasn't the husband I wanted to be and, uh, honestly, I wasn't doing a very good job pastoring either, right, like it just everything crashed and it was just like well, if I'm doing all of these things, if I put myself in the situation where I'm stressed and tired, in my head it was like well, if I'm accomplishing something, it's worthwhile, you know, like it's just me doing what I have to do to get the job done. But when I started failing at everything, like I sat in front of one of our board meetings and said, guys, I, I'm operating at like 35 right now, like you know, sitting down to write a sermon was incredibly difficult because I was struggling to think I, I just um, I don't know how to explain it, other than there was like a numbness, but with like a buzzing, like my whole, my whole self was buzzing.Tanner: 16:52

Like there was just this overwhelmed energy. That was just I don't know and so so. But even in those moments it was just like, well, I'm just, I'm just tired, or whatever. Like I didn't want to apply that, that burnout, because I think I said it in the, in the pre-show. Like I didn't, or you know, before we started recording, I I didn't apply burnout to myself because, like I'm not one of these workaholics, I'm not a control freak, I'm not a you know somebody that you know, when I think of burnout, I think it's I was trying to do less, you know like I said you had said, well, if I fix this problem, then everything's going to be good.Margie: 17:39

And then something else would come up which sounds like some kind of pastoral version of whack-a-mole that you can't get ahead of.Tanner: 17:47

Yeah, yeah, and that's I mean I think that's how I justified it for as long as I did was just that well, if I get this solved, or maybe not even that, but just the reality of being a senior leader in an organization where, like, if I don't do this and this, it's not arrogance, it's not pride, it's just if I'm, if I don't do this, it's not going to get done. Or if I don't, if I don't intervene, things are going to get worse. You know having to step in between two grown adults arguing at a board meeting, like I had to put myself in the middle of that. Or you know conflicts in the church or people in positions that they probably shouldn't have been in. You know it creates problems.Margie: 18:32

It creates, you know, conflict and hurt and you're saying and you're saying is this what I went into ministry to do?Tanner: 18:40

Well, and, and I mean I, I cared about the people at the church and one of the things that I've learned over the years is like, before pastoring full-time, I was in logistics management, like I, warehousing and transportation and that type of thing, and so my initial instincts to everything is organizational right, and so I thought when I went to full-time pastoral ministry I needed to focus more like individual, relational. But what I discovered through experience and maybe people have other conclusions but I come to the conclusion that, like so much of the hurt and conflict in churches right now isn't because one bad person hurt another person. It's it's lack of clarity and roles and responsibility. It's a lack of understanding of, I mean, the number of times that people said well, who said they could do that, or I was doing that, or they stepped in my territory, or they hurt my feelings because they did something I was supposed to do that dysfunction in organization creates hurt at a pace that individual, you know, just having one mean person couldn't handle. And so that was my mentality is like if I can get the culture healthy, the organization healthy, then these hurts will go away. But as we solve problems, as we move through things I can't remember who said it, but I was listening to a podcast that talked about church leadership, being a pastor, and that your leadership staff and church leaders need to be problem solvers, like they should come to you with solutions to problems, and that what often happens is you end up with a bunch of church problem deliverers.Tanner: 20:18

And that was that was a culture that I found myself in. I had a large team which, on the surface, feels like I should be able to accomplish a lot, but it just meant there was more people that had problems that they needed my input on, and so, and you were the fixer of all things. Yeah, and I mean, and in my most cynical moments I said they just hired me to come and be an employee for them. Right, like, I'm not, I'm not a pastor, I'm just the fixer. And then it was just hard for me when I really started to struggle to find space.Tanner: 20:53

My kids went to the same school as some of the other staff, and so I'd run into people in the parking lot that wanted to talk about church-related issues. You know, I'm in my you know shorts and hooded sweatshirt, not, you know, not even ready to start the day yet. And you know, and because they knew I was going to be there, they would come prepared to talk about something. Or my kids were at the daycare which our church ran, and so I'd go pick up my kids at the end of the day. And a spontaneous meeting happened, because they knew that at a certain point I would come and pick up my kids and it just, it just expounded like that, the feeling that I I there was no place I could go, that I was not responsible for other people's problems. You know what I mean?Margie: 21:38

Yeah, yeah, well, that's a and that's a heavy load. Then At what point then did you say to yourself, okay, there's got to be some other way for me to live into my call, or?Tanner: 21:54

yeah, yeah, I think I mean the real. Like I said, when I ended up in the er there was the wake-up call if I got to do something. But even after that it took me a while. Actually it took my wife to kind of kick me in the butt a little bit to get me to see a counselor and and with some folks. But the question was, what do I do If you feel called to ministry, you pastor a church, right, that's what you do.Tanner: 22:24

And I just really wrestled with the idea that I have to do all these things and go through all these barriers to share my faith with people or to pray with people or to. You know, I, when I worked in warehousing, I had more honest conversations with with people that were on it, just because it was just a faith conversation. It wasn't about church finances or what color the I mean the stereotypical carpet conversation like that was happening at one of my churches, the you know pews or chairs, or you know we put tables in the sanctuary for a sermon series and and people. It's not spiritual to have tables like all of that nonsense. I'm like I'm just trying to teach people about jesus and you pray with people that that need.Tanner: 23:18

So I just found myself really struggling to even do the basic things I was supposed to be doing. And that's when, like, oh, that's it, this is burnout. This is, this is what it is. You know, my, my dog loved it because I was at home on the couch all the time. That that was her favorite thing is when I was home on the. You know I would, I could do some work. You know, so much of stuff is done, you know, remotely now, but it's just the productivity wasn't there, the drive wasn't there. When my phone would ring, I would avoid it. You know, it was just that type of thing where I was like not only am I struggling with the idea of being a pastor, like I'm not past right and so I'm like a pastor should at least want to go to church on sunday, and I didn't like you know. I mean it was just that level of and I felt bad because it was like this congregation deserves a pastor that wants to pastor them, and I wasn't living up to what I felt like my responsibilities were.Tanner: 24:13

And there was a whole, a whole, a whole chain of things, but it was just kind of this idea of like, what if we went back home and that wasn't even necessarily a sense of, of calling, it was more along the lines of my wife's grandma passed away and I wasn't able to be there. You know, I'd known Darlene for, you know, 20 some years and because of my church responsibilities I wasn't able to be there. You know, I'd known Darlene for, you know, 20 some years and because of my church responsibilities I wasn't able. I was actually doing a funeral for somebody else that day and there was just that sense of like I'm taking care of other people but I'm missing out on the people that matter most. I'm not able to be there for them. So that's where the draw, to come back home, was I hadn't been around.Tanner: 24:54

You know, my mom was, was had some health issues and it's like my kids don't know grandma that well. I mean, they know her because she comes and visits. But it's just that was where that initial came from. And as soon as, like, my wife and I came to that decision, like, yes, this is our next move. Like it was, the weight came off. I still had responsibilities there, but it was like I'm no longer holding myself responsible for the future of this, this church, and and honestly, I've, you know, learned, learned a lesson along the way it's god's church, it's not my church. There's problems problems before I got there. There'll be problems after I'm there, it seems kind of arrogant to think that I could fix everything.Tanner: 25:37

But but it was once I started the the process of moving back home that I felt this like stirring again and there was a little bit of just this downtime where I didn't want to do anything and I just needed rest. But that didn't last as long as I thought it was going to.Margie: 25:56

How long did it last?Tanner: 25:58

A couple of weeks, and I mean part of that was job transition and I transitioned to a job that I'm really enjoying, so it was fulfilling, but it wasn't a heavy stress load Like I got eased into this position. My onboarding was super low intensity, which I totally appreciate, so I felt like I had a little bit of rest through that. But it wasn't like I said. It wasn't long and the desire to write kicked in and so I've been. I've been, I've got a blog and hardly anybody reads it, but I write because it's good for me. But I've also been writing sermons, and not that I'm preaching them, but I'm still writing. There was just more.Tanner: 26:39

And I've been talking with my wife about doing something like a hybrid dinner small group type thing in our hometown now and some other ministry related things, some other ministry related things and like that, as as I stepped away from the thing that was was dragging me down and got a little bit of space, like clarity of calling kicked in, like I really started to understand you know, the things that I've been frustrated with or struggling with over the past few years.Tanner: 27:06

I feel like God is saying well, let's not try and hit, let's not try and tackle those things right now. Let's, let's focus on what you feel most passionate about and, uh, let's maybe we don't have to have all the details so like this. They said this this dinner church type thing we're thinking about. You know, probably the most fruitful ministry that I've had in both churches that I was at was we we'd started like a young adults small group in our home on Sunday evenings and we'd have food and play games and talk and then just talk about the sermon from the day, and that was like the most effective discipleship that I've participated in or that I've led, but also the greatest sense of community that I've been a part of. And so it's like well, can we replicate that like why do I have to have the building and the pews and the? You know all?Tanner: 27:58

of that like the carpet right and the carpet and all that like I want to focus on on relational ministry and I want to share faith with people that are really interested in, that, are searching for something, and so, like the, the image that came to my mind was that the two disciples walking away from jerusalem after jesus is crucified and they don't know he's resurrected yet.Tanner: 28:24

And they're walking on the road and yeah, and so they're discouraged, they think the plan's gone off the rails, like their faith has let them down and they don't really know what to do next. So they're just going to go home and like that's the image of like my mission field now. Like the church culture has has is prevalent enough in society that people have religious experiences one way or the other, one way or the other. But like in the town we're in now, you know there's been a church split, church closing, a church plant that tried to launch and failed. There's a lot of like experience with faith and religion but a lot of disappointment, like I can see people in that and so like let's get some people together and and share a meal. Jesus showed up to those disciples when they broke bread, so let's break bread and talk about, see where Jesus is in all this and I got so excited about this that it was clarity of calling and purpose.Tanner: 29:27

But like I sat down and just mapped out, I'm a planner by nature and I just mapped out like the whole thing and it's like I said I've been, I've been writing for the sermons for this church that doesn't exist yet. You know, I'm taking a new approach but, like it took me, I had to have permission to to think outside of the typical structure, right Like, like I said, when you feel called to ministry, you think you're going to pastor a church. And it took me a while to come to the point where I was like no, we can do something different. I mean the missional churches house churches, neighborhood missional movements those types of things really helped me grasp that sense of we can do things a little differently.Margie: 30:07

It hasn't always been the way that I've experienced it always been the way that I've experienced it Sure, sure, and this is in part why I feel called to do what I'm doing, with nudging pastors towards self-care and a slower pace so that they can hear the daring call of the Spirit and follow, because I think the church today is in a lot of transitions. Transitions are hard and I think that you can't hear the daring call of the spirit if you're running like a crazy person on the hamster wheel. You just can't, and I think in this transitional time can't, and I think in this transitional time, god is going to ask us to do some new things, and so it may not look like the traditional. I'm called and therefore that means I am a pastor, but you still can be pastoral in whatever place that God plants your feet, and it may just look different and that's kind of exciting.Tanner: 31:19

Yeah, and, and I think what you said right there and why I appreciate you know your podcast and and and just the, the growing conversation about self-care for pastors and I was I was worthless to people because I did, you know, like you know, I mean I remember pastoral care and counseling classes, the first in both undergrad and in my graduate classes. Both times I took that course they talked about the. You know, you're on an airplane and it loses pressure. The masks come down, put your own on first, because you can't help anybody if you've passed out Like I know that in my head, but it just felt like I never prioritizing self-care seems selfish.Tanner: 32:03

And so I appreciate the conversation because it, you know you're bringing attention to it and others bringing attention to it and providing resources and even just talking about it, making it seem like it's a real thing. Is it helped crack through my sense of what I thought about self-care? Right Like, and it wasn't. I thought bad things about self-care. I was just thought I didn't need it, right Like I'm, I'm doing fine, until I wasn't.Margie: 32:31

Right, right. Well, that's and that's. You know why? And I I know I've shared my burnout stuff before on the podcast and stuff and that's why I feel very strongly about this, because they will tell you in class this is what you should be doing and for some reason it just goes by the wayside. Or they think I just have to pray more and read my Bible more and I'll be fine. And I'm not saying either of those things are not helpful or good. I'm just saying we are finite people. It dawned on me one time, a friend of mine. I was like why am I like this? Why am I so upset? Why am I this? And she said I was like why am I like this? Why am I so upset? Why am I this? And she said you know, it's because you're human. And I thought what a light bulb moment. Yeah, I'm human and I'm finite and I'm like in scripture it says I'm like the grass that's going to wither someday and I always want to think that I'm a perennial and I think I'm an annual, though.Margie: 33:34

I mean it's that kind of thing that we have going. I don't know if I want to ascribe pride to it, really, because that seems a little harsh, but I just think we get so busy because in United States culture, busy is the thing. If you're busy, you have to be busy in order to be successful, and what pastor doesn't want to be successful in the spiritual things like making disciples? But then you get there and you realize you're going to fuel yourself through rest.Tanner: 34:19

Yeah.Margie: 34:19

You forget all that because the to-do list is so blasted big.Tanner: 34:25

Yeah, and you brought up pride, but for me, I think initially it was insecurity. You know pride, but I, for for me, I think initially it was it was insecurity, like I, when I would do things for myself or with my family, I felt like I needed to justify it. Oh, because there were things that needed attention, there was people that needed help and you know if I'm out, you know if I'm out golfing or you know doing something else like I almost feel like I have to justify, had to justify that because there was, there was needs that weren't being met while I was doing that, and so I think it became insecurity, like I had to. And which is it's so silly because you know I, I know the stories right, so you know the Hebrews in captivity in in Egypt and you know Moses comes, let my people go, and all that, and they go out into the wilderness and one of the first thing that God tells them they have to do is keep a Sabbath. You know, like this is so critically important. This is going to be foundational to who you are and how you live. Keep a Sabbath Like this is on the same level. As you know, don't murder, don't have other gods Right, live, keep a sabbath. Like this is on the same level as you know, don't murder, don't have other gods right. Like, keep a sabbath. And somehow, when I think you pointed out you know american culture like that's a sin, you're never going to get called out on working too much.Tanner: 35:47

I, I, I started keeping a journal and a planner and I write out my sabbath plan and I, wouldn't you know, started keeping a journal and a planner and I write out my sabbath plan and I wouldn't, you know, sometimes I'd keep it, sometimes I wouldn't. But I think that's one of the things that I noticed most. That first week where I wasn't a full-time pastor, that sunday morning came along and and I was rested and relaxed and I'm like, oh, this is Sabbath. And I'm like how do I hang on to this? A friend of mine is like, well, you've discovered the weekend. I'm like, yeah, there's this thing called the weekend. This is what God wants for all of us, on a weekly basis, to enjoy life. It's meant to be, you know, the, the biblical, the new Testament imagery of the great feast, the great banquet. Like we're invited to this and it's not our party, we're not responsible for the catering or the. You know like he wants us to enjoy it.Margie: 36:50

I forgot how you know what I mean he wants us to enjoy it.Tanner: 36:53

I forgot how. You know what I mean. I felt like I was a worker. That was my job to.Margie: 36:58

Worker be.Tanner: 36:59

Yeah.Margie: 36:59

So if you could give one word of wisdom, say to yourself before you entered pastoral ministry, what do you think you might say?Tanner: 37:13

Look for God, because there's a lot of things that are in the life of a church but it's not necessarily. I don't know. Use the word spiritual lightly, but not necessarily like well, I'll just say spiritual, it's not a spiritual thing. And so look for Jesus, look for that and just lean into it and let that be the priority. And yeah, I think sometimes it's easy to get. It was easy for me to get caught up in all the things. I think the message would be just do this, be faithful to the things god wants us to do. You know, pray, read, rest sabbath, you know it's. Keep it simple, maybe that old data it and let things, let the spirit work out. Everything else, you know, I don't, I don't have any. I mean I have some regrets, but like I don't, if I could go back in time, I time I wouldn't do it many things much different, but I think that would be. The key is trust, that being faithful is enough. And yeah, you can't fix everything. Just be faithful in what you're called to do. I like that.Margie: 38:32

Yeah, I like that.Tanner: 38:33

Yeah.Margie: 38:33

I like that. I like the simplicity of it because it feels like it gets more complicated at some point along the way and that's not quite so fun, because I think a lot of pastors go into and are called into ministry and they have ideas about what they're. Ideas about what they're. I think I could count on one hand the number of intense spiritual conversations I had with congregants and it wasn't because I wasn't available or whatever. It just wasn't happening there like that. And there's aspects of what we end up doing that it gets a little disappointing, especially when it draws us away from where we felt God calling us to be.Tanner: 39:17

Yeah, and I read Eugene Peterson's memoir, the Pastor, and as I was reading through that there were so many moments of just like yes, this exactly. And one of the things he talked about was his experience of finishing seminary and going to his first church and being just utterly shocked at how little the church people cared about the things of God. He just assumed that that's why they were part of the church, that's why they're going to be there, that's the focal point, you know, and it was. It was meetings and potlucks and you know, social events and all. And he's just like, well, what about the things of God? And like that I could relate to that experience. Because he said I didn't go into ministry because I wanted attention.Tanner: 40:05

Like public speaking was not my favorite thing. I didn't want to be up on the platform. I didn't want the spotlight thing. I didn't want to be up on the platform. I didn't want the spotlight. I just I honestly wanted to care about people, the way that I had received love and care and compassion through the church that I grew up in and I thought there was a compelling story of scripture and I thought people needed to know it. And yeah, it was just. I think that's my greatest frustration is is the church has gathered people for a variety of reasons, and sometimes Jesus isn't really a part of it at all.Margie: 40:40

And you almost feel bad saying that or seeing that. Yeah, as I said, it's a challenging era to be a part of. I've said for a while, hey, I think we're all Jeremiah be a part of. I've said for a while, hey, I think we're all Jeremiah. As sad as that, you know, because you looked at Jeremiah and I thought, man, his stats for conversions aren't too good, are they? But yeah, it's a challenging era, but the real big thrill is watching somebody recapture the essence of what God called you to be and to be about. And I really want to say I appreciate so much your honesty and your sincerity to come and share on the Krabby Pastor podcast. One less Krabby Pastor, right.Tanner: 41:31

Yep, yep, and I'm glad too, because I mean, you can feel alone. I think that's what's so great about what you're doing is sharing stories like this. You know you feel isolated, you feel like nobody else is going through this, or yeah, so I think it's great.Margie: 41:48

Well, I appreciate that and blessings on you and your ministry, whichever way it goes, with the dinner church and the work that you do at Olivet Nazarene. And thank you so much for coming on and sharing. I appreciate that.Tanner: 42:02

Yeah, it's been a good conversation, thanks.Margie: 42:06

Are you wondering whether your fatigue, your lack of motivation, your lack of interest is burnout maybe? I just wanted to let you know that I have a resource on the website, margiebricecom that's B-R-Y-C-E MargieBricecom R Y C E Margie Brycecom, and it is a burnout questionnaire, free for you to download and kind of self assess and get a sense of where you're at. There are questions that not only ask about what you're going through, but maybe how often you're experiencing it and that's that's kind of a key to where you might be, because you have to know where you are in order to chart a course forward. And most pastors who experience pastors and ministry leaders who experience burnout rarely know that that's where they're at until they're well into it. And if you're unsure about that little statistic, so far, everybody that I've interviewed on this podcast who has experienced burnout, when I asked that kind of question, they're like, yeah, I didn't know, that's where I was at. So again, go to margiebricecom it's on the homepage of the website and you can get your burnout questionnaire and kind of see where you're at.Margie: 43:44

Hey friends, the Crabby Pastor podcast is sponsored by Bryce Art Glass and you can find that on Facebook.Margie: 43:56

View Details

While on sabbatical (yes, I'm taking my own advice), we are replaying podcasts where our brave guests tell their journey into and out of burnout. You won't want to miss these as there's always something to learn from others, right? This episode, Rev. Eden Avalos shares a story of emotional fatigue. His candid recount of seeking therapy and restructuring his life offers a beacon of hope and practical advice for ministry leaders navigating similar challenges.Eden's journey didn't end there; it took him through a tumultuous interim period and even a factory job, all while grappling with feelings of being undervalued and emotionally drained. His time in manual labor, fraught with physical discomfort, became a space for deep introspection and mental fortitude. This episode reveals the profound insights Eden gained on the necessity of a stable, fulfilling career and how personal space contributes to mental health and ministry sustainability.Let this discussion inspire you to cultivate a balanced, resilient approach to your calling, ensuring you can thrive and go the distance with God's plans.

Support the Show.

🦀 🦀 🦀

Find regular support on my Facebook group by clicking HERE.Connect with me about COACHING and Workshops on self-care HERE.

TranscriptMargie: 0:01

Hey there, Margie Bryce, here bringing you the Crabby Pastor podcast, and I don't think you're going to be too surprised to know that it's too easy today to become the Crabby Pastor. Our time together will give you food for thought to help you be the ministry leader fully surrendered to God's purposes and living into whatever it takes to get you there and keep you there. So we're talking about sustainability in ministry and today's episode of the Crabby Pastor podcast and I want to welcome you all this is Margie Bryson. I am your host talking about all things self-care for ministry leaders and some leadership issues, because you know the first line of leadership is to be able to lead yourself well, and sometimes you know we have that intention going into ministry, but sometimes the demands of the task that we have been given get a little overwhelming or we get a little entrenched in them and it takes us to the place of burnout, which is the place beyond. A nap will just fix this kind of realm.Margie:

1:27So I have visited that place and I always appreciate people who are willing to come on the podcast and share their back from burnout stories, because we all can learn from one another as we go along here, and today I have Reverend Eden Avalos with me and I met him at a development session in San Diego for coaches, so he's a coach as well, and he shared his burnout story and I was interested because I could tell he was a 30-something person. So I like to have the younger people on to learn from one another and to benefit and to grow. So I'm going to let Eden introduce himself. Tell us a bit about who you are and what you're doing these days.Eden:

2:19My name is Eden Avalos. I am in Indiana. I came from New Mexico. I've been in youth ministry, primarily here in Indiana.Eden:

2:29Before this I was kind of the catch-all, be-all pastor and I had different titles. I mean, I did a lot of youth ministry, I did a lot of associate work, I did a lot of outreach work During COVID, I did a lot of media work. So it was kind of, you know, whatever the need was at the time, that was my position. But here in Indiana it's primarily been one thing. It's just been youth ministry and associate to the pastor of just whatever he needs. If he's on vacation, I'm in charge. If he is in a meeting, I'm in charge, kind of a thing. So it's been different.Eden:

3:05This is my first full-time position I've done. You know there's no such thing as part-time ministry. It's the first time where I only have to do this. This is the only thing I have to do, and so before it was youth ministry and something else. It was youth ministry and real estate or ministry and working in a factory, ministry and, you know, photography or yard work, whatever. Whatever I needed to do to make ends meet was my former life, whereas now it's just this is all I have to do, and everything outside of ministry is just something I want to do, so it's a good combination.Margie:

3:43Now, Okay, so you talked about your visit to burnout and I guess I'm curious when you first got the inkling that something was off.Eden:

3:57The first time must have been. I think we were going on a youth trip to San Diego again and I remember reaching the top of the hill and looking over the water and I was just thinking like this has to be the last time I do this trip, like I don't want to do this anymore. I'm tired. And I enjoyed that trip though it's always a fun event. I always have had fun with the kids but I was just done with it. I was just. I just didn't want to keep going. And then from that point on, I still did it one more time, but the last time I did it I was just.Eden:

4:37I was in a whole different place mentally, a darker place mentally, and it was that it was that first time where I was just getting to the point where I had just so much going on, I was being pulled in too many different directions and now I had to go on this trip. And so I think that is like the beginning of when I was starting to think like I have to figure something out. But in that I needed to get out of ministry was my thought process. But when my wife got pregnant is when I did a self-reflection, a self-analysis, and I looked at just my life and I thought I can't be a father effectively with all this going on. I have to fix this. With all this going on, I have to fix this. And so that's when I went into therapy and really just started narrowing down on these things and did the work that the therapist was recommending.Eden:

5:36And during that time it was just not. It was just wasn't great at work because I was going through an interim phase and myself and the other and the youth pastor took on the interim position for a year, about a year. It was during COVID and it was. It was at a legacy church, you know, a church that had a very prominent position and my father-in-law was the pastor that was there before me and when he retired he kind of we took it on and it was a very, just, very difficult time. We didn't know what was going on, we didn't know how the election process was going. We just kind of were it kind of put into a corner. But then when the new pastor was elected, they hired this great guy. I still love the guy, he's a great pastor and I committed I'm going to serve under him for a minimum of one year and then if something opens up, I'll step out.Eden:

6:38And something opened up and so I stepped out after a year, wanting to stay there, but I stepped out. I stepped out just because, being related to the former pastor and being, you know, kind of, I felt like I was carrying that legacy into the church, just being related to the former pastor, and so I felt like I was doing a disservice to the current pastor and so I had to. I stepped out. But my family is all back home in New Mexico and so it was a difficult decision to come out here. But I felt like I was in a better place mentally to and physically and emotionally to come out here and pastor alongside my current pastor. But the first inkling was that I just realized I can't keep going in a hundred different directions at a hundred miles an hour and I need something, needs something, has to give, because it's going to break. And then it, and then it just did break.Margie:

7:36So when you say it, it did break, what exactly describe for us what what that looked like?Eden:

7:44Yeah, so it wasn't like one moment. It was a series of moments where, right after COVID, right after we got shut down sorry, no, let me backtrack Right after I took on the interim role and I didn't take it on by myself, but I'll just, without including the other pastor I took on the interim, interim role and the first thing we had to do was a funeral for one of my teenagers who had committed suicide and so that kind of put me in a tailspin and nobody checked in on us.Eden:

8:20Nobody checked in. You know how are you handling this? I was checking in on the family, I was checking in on the kids, on the other people that you know were affected by this, but nobody was just checking in on me. My wife was checking in on me, but I wasn't giving her everything, I wasn't telling her everything, because I just had learned at that point you bottle everything up, so how old were you at that point?Margie:

8:45I'm so bad with age I think I was just had learned at that point. You bottle everything up. So how old were you at that point?Eden:

8:47I'm so bad with age. I think I was 28. Okay, I have no idea, I'm currently 32, but only because I just remembered yesterday that I'm 32. So I'm not exactly sure of ages. But it was a few months right before COVID hit, so it was March of 2020. A few months before, that is when, is when it was when this all happened, and then, and then it hit, and then it just went, you know just terribly.Margie:

9:14Oh it was it was, that was, was, would you say. This is accurate, that the suicide of the teenager was maybe the straw that broke the camel's back for you, or just put you over the edge?Eden:

9:30I would say I would say that it I had. I was at capacity or right before capacity and this came on and but then it just kept piling up. After that four capacity and this came on and but then it just kept piling up after that. And so I guess, I guess, I guess it could have been I I'm not sure exactly I'd have to look at my journal of of, just because, surprisingly, I I've kept the journal for the past, you know, six years, even through burnout, and it's kind of dark to read through because you're like what is going on in this guy's life? Or a couple years ago it was, it was I was just saying like today was terrible, today was terrible, today was okay, today was terrible, today was terrible.Eden:

10:10Um, so I I could back track and kind of see where it all really fell apart, but it it could have been that that that kind of pushed me over, but I had a lot going in. I I had a lot that I was just tolerating, that I was ignoring a lot of the, not to speak ill of anyone. But people don't appreciate the interim pastor, the associate pastor, the youth pastor, as much as they appreciate the senior pastor and so pastor, the youth pastor, as much as they appreciate the senior pastor. And so, even though during the interim period we didn't lose a single member, we didn't have any major fights, we didn't have any major breakouts, that was never acknowledged, that was never.Margie:

10:58That you were holding the fort together. Basically, Right.Eden:

11:01Plus doing our own jobs of our individual ministry, plus doing our bivocational jobs to make ends meet. And so I think the moment that I realized I can't do this anymore is when, like at the end of the interim period, when they had elected the new, the coming senior pastor, they said we'd like to now thank Pastor Eden and the other pastor for their pulpit supply for the last year. And I was. I just that moment broke me because I was like, oh, the pulpit supply, that's all we did. Pulpit supply, okay, that's good. I'm glad nothing else got noticed. I'm glad that you know that that's what I'm known for is pulpit supply. And so that moment is the one where I was just like this isn't going to work, like I can't do this, I'm not doing this, and that's when around that time is when I was, when I I started going to therapy and and really I just broke down with my wife and just told her like this is, this has gotten pretty bad, this is not a good, I'm not in a good place and I need help, and so that's that's, that's the start of it. And then going through therapy and going through the things that my counselor was telling me, kind of getting that shift in perspective helped me out a lot. And then still on the ordination track, still doing the all the things that you're required to do for ordination, and so I took an assessment once for one of the requirements. It was a psychological assessment and the person doing the analysis saw my report and was like are you in therapy? You might need to be in therapy because it seems like you're going through a lot of trauma. You've done, you've dealt with a lot. You need to, you've you need to get these things sorted out. And I told him like yeah, I'm actually currently in therapy, and so he kind of I think he was like okay, well, if you're as long as you're working on these things, I think you'll be fine.Eden:

12:59In my report I just saw a lot of potentially dangerous things that I just was ignoring. I was just not paying attention to myself, I wasn't paying attention to my body telling me slow down, stop, stop worrying about all of these things all at once. But I had no solutions. I had no. There was nothing that I could do at the time. It was weird. And then, but then doors started opening. People were offering me positions, and at first it was, they were all positions that were worse than the position that I was at.Margie:

13:40They were worse, meaning you knew you'd end up running hard and fast on the hamster wheel with a heavy load.Eden:

13:46Right, exactly Like worse. And it's not about the money, but it was not enough money, and it was. It was I knew I'd have to go to get the ministry job plus do a whole other job, a whole other career, or my wife would have to do that and my daughter would have to be put in daycare, and we just weren't negotiating that we or my wife would have to do that and my daughter would have to be put in daycare, and we just weren't negotiating that. We're just, we weren't going to do that. Not that there's anything wrong with daycare, we just didn't want to do that.Eden:

14:13And so we, we, we kept getting offers like this and I just kept thinking like this just isn't working, I don't think there's, I don't think there's anything for me. And so I started at a company, just at a factory, just thinking I'll work my way up. And it's not, it was a, it was a. Faith comes by hearing, and so I'm not sure if you or your listeners are familiar, but it's just, they put audio Bibles together, and so that's that's what I did, was I? I went there with, you know, with a master's degree, with, at that point, you know, 10 years of of pastoral experience, army experience, and.Eden:

14:53I got a factory job and it was. It was helpful getting to sit there and just put these things together for eight hours a day, because I got to listen to audiobooks, I got to listen to the bible, I got to listen to podcasts and I was able to do a lot of deep work during that that time that I wasn't expecting to do. I thought like I'm just going to go in and I'm going to start a new career and I'm going to work my way up in this company. But then within the company, all the positions that were interesting to me were getting taken up and I asked my boss I was like, why am I being passed over? And she said, well, you have to be here for a year before we can recommend you for another position. And all the positions were getting filled and there's not a high turnover rate at that company at those positions. And so I was like so I have to be here for a year doing this sitting. And it was physically demanding because the tables, all the factory, was set up for shorter people and I'm, you know, six foot two and so I'm kind of like leaned over like this putting these things together, and so physically I was in a lot of pain and I thought I can't do this for a year and then hope for a position later, and so I ended up just having to quit and and and and was just waiting for something to open up.Eden:

16:16Um, I was still selling real estate at the time, but it was. I was getting burnt out from it because of all the I like that business, but I didn't. I don't think I was in a healthy place mentally to be doing it well, and so I wasn't trying as hard. I was still getting sales and I was still able to make money with it, but it wasn't. It just wasn't ideal, and so we had to my wife and I just had to make a lot of shifts.Eden:

16:45We were living with family during this time and we just realized like we need our own space, and so we got an apartment that we could barely afford. But we had money in savings and so we got the apartment just to hopefully figure something out, just hopefully something will come our way and this will get resolved. And we were there for, I think, eight months and it was just a haven. It was just a safe, warm place that we got to be together, alone, and it made the difference, getting to just to be alone as our little family, because at that point my daughter, when she was born, she was born and we were living with family, and so she moved in with family and not that that's wrong or bad, it's just it didn't work.Eden:

17:37It is Everyone's on top of each other. Everyone's, we're sharing a kitchen, we're sharing all these things. Everyone's, we're sharing a kitchen, we're sharing all these things. And it was a good time, but I was not in the place to enjoy it as I could have. I just I had a lot of deep work that I needed to do, that I had not done, and so so how?Margie:

17:58how long was your? Well? First, let's back up. How did you find this therapist? What? What was the process in coming to find somebody that you felt you could work with?Eden:

18:11So that was a miracle of God. The office that I called it was just a Christian counseling office that was down the street. And I called and asked you know how much is it, do you have any availability? And they said we don't have anybody available right now, but we do have interns that are available. Are you willing to meet with an intern? And at that point I was just desperate. I said I'll meet with the janitor, I don't care, like just any anyone, whoever you have is good.Eden:

18:39And so I, I met with my counselor, uh, that first time, and I was hesitant going in because a lot of what my not a lot, but a good chunk of what my problem was was theological understandings of, like what is going on in the world and why can't I make sense of it and why does it seem to be inconsistent with theology, with just worldview. And I was hoping that I would get somebody who was like-minded, who had similar theological understandings. And I knew that that was a high order, because most counselors have to have master's. I mean, all counselors have to have master's degrees and that's a high degree to get. And so I thought like I don't think that most counselors get theological training, but let's just see what happens.Eden:

19:31And I go and I meet with this intern and he was a former pastor and he had a former pastor and he had a master's degree in theology and was getting his master's degree in counseling and it was just, he was a line of rescue that got sent because our theological beliefs were very similar.Eden:

19:53We had a very similar upbringing, very similar background, and he was able to walk me through a lot of the things that we went through because he had walked through them and so he was a godsend. It was truly a miracle that God even orchestrated that, because I could have ended up with the other person. You know that that would have been something different and it probably would have helped still, but this, the, the gentleman that I that I was with, uh, just completely helped me, recenter myself on the practice, the basic practices, you know, the, the Jesus prayer, the it was a lot of. It was Greek Orthodox, so a lot of it was just recentering on the fact of that. God is powerful, god is moving, god has the ability to, to change these things and, you know, with the help of therapy it's just compounds and I just took on spiritual practices of, you know fasting, of praying, you know working out.Eden:

20:59It's not necessarily a spiritual practice, but it is a practice that I think, is important, and so I kind of hobbled together these things and it made a huge difference. And at this point now I'm on the side where I'm no longer underground, I'm no long like. The fire has already been put out, it's been cleaned out, everything's been pulled out. Now I'm just building up.Margie:

21:24Okay, how long about? How long of a process was this for you?Eden:

21:29I think it's been about four years. If I were to put a number on it, I'd say about four to five years. It's been about closer to four, I think 44 years of total of from the beginning stages to now. It's been about four.Margie:

21:46And what would you say are the top things you learned along the way that would be helpful say to our audience along the way that would be helpful.Eden:

21:56say to our audience Realize that if you need help, you need help. Don't put it off, because it can go bad really quick. If you have trauma in your life that is unaddressed, it needs to be addressed. If you have self-deprecation issues which I have, I still have, I still it's. My tendency is to self-deprecate. But if you are a person that does that, that is not going to help. Living in shame is not going to help.Margie:

22:32It just makes it significantly worse and worse, and so and how would you describe self-deprecating, in case somebody wants a little more unpacking on that?Eden:

22:43Anything I do, I do it wrong. If I cured cancer tomorrow, I would have taken too long, I would have done it wrong, I would have been over budget. I would have been over budget. I always find a way to tear down what I do. Regardless of what I do or regardless of how well I do it, I can do something extremely well. Look at it and go eh, it wasn't that hard, actually, anyone can do it.Eden:

23:09Just recently I was talking about education through high school. All of my teachers none of my teachers encouraged me to go to college because they didn't think I could make it, and so I was just of the belief that I'm just not going to college. I have to figure something else out. But I had one teacher who said you need to go like if you want to go, you can make it like that, you shouldn't let that slow you down. And that one teacher made a difference and I didn't, you know, enroll in college until I was 21, 22. So I was older than the other students, but I had a calling on my life, and so I believe that I needed to go to college.Eden:

23:48In my first semester I was nervous, I was terrified, but I did it. And then I thought, okay, well, I can, I can do another one, and I can do another one. Then I got my bachelor's degree then and I'm like, well, let's see if I can do a master's degree. And I got my master's degree and then when I graduated with my master's degree, I looked at all of my education and I went, if I could do it, then anyone can do it. So it wasn't that hard, it clearly wasn't that difficult, and so I just tore it down. I just thought, like, I don't even have I still don't even have my degrees hanging on the wall, because it's just that that's my habit is like, oh, if I did it, it's anyone, anyone's capable of doing it, and right now it's just because I haven't done it.Margie:

24:29I will put them up at some point, but I just don't have.Eden:

24:32I don't know where they are.Margie:

24:33We just moved, so yeah, so anything else words of wisdom besides, if you to get help quickly, to realize I need help and to go after that and and if you know that you have trauma or you know that you have quirks about how you perceive yourself, how you perceive life and just your general mindset, is there any other words of?Eden:

25:02wisdom that you'd offer. Ultimately, just take it seriously. If you've decided to call out and you get help, take what they say seriously. Don't just kind of process it mentally and think, oh just, yeah, sure, that's great, do the work. Do the work because otherwise you're just putting a Band-Aid on the issue and you're not getting to the symptoms, you're not actually healing, you're just masking and you're ignoring.Eden:

25:31And you have to do a life shift, a complete shift, to get out of burnout successfully, to get out of that mindset successfully. You have to change everything because if you keep, the reason you got there is because all of your habits led you to that. It's not a random thing that was just dealt to you. It's the way you process, the way you engage, the way you do. All of those things led you to that, and so if you want to get out of that, you have to undo all the things you were doing, and it takes a long time. It's be patient with yourself, be kind to yourself, give yourself rest, give yourself breaks because you're going to need them overall.Eden:

26:20You're going to need them. If you don't, you're just going to end up back in the same place as you were before. I actively have to tell myself no, you don't need another job. No, you shouldn't start a business. No, you don't. That like what you're doing is you're panicking, and so like I have to understand when I start getting uneasy. I have to understand well, what is the source of this, where is this coming from and what am I trying to ignore, and that I mean. That helps a lot to do that and that's a level of self-awareness which which I think, boy, there should be courses on just that.Eden:

26:59Especially for path.Margie:

27:00At all levels, at all levels of education there should be. You know, why am I doing this? Why is this annoying me? Why does that congregate annoy me? You know and you could find out. Oh my gosh, he reminds me of my brother, right?Eden:

27:14annoy me, you know, and you could find out.Margie:

27:15Oh my gosh, he reminds me of my brother, you know, my brother makes me nuts, you know, and at least coming asking those kinds of questions, what do you do differently now? How does your life look differently now than before?Eden:

27:29I, I'm trying to. I, I do my best to be more intentional about enjoying things, and while that's still hard, I intentionally try to enjoy things Like vacations. I grew up, you know, I'm an immigrant, my parents are immigrants, and so, growing up as an immigrant, you learn to work, and we never vacationed as kids. We went on vacations, but they were work vacations, they were work trips, and so my dad, my mom, they don't know how to rest, they don't know how to stop, and therefore I don't know how to stop, I don't know how to rest. I never, you know, we never took time off. And so even when I was at my last church vacay I think I took three vacations in seven years, and those vacations were still. I still was doing homework during those, or I was, I was still answering phone calls, or I was still, you know, checking email or whatever. It was, just to keep things going.Margie:

28:33But and that's a boundary, that's a boundary issue. You probably learned that. Yeah, I did.Eden:

28:37And in some vacations, like some trips, I would say like I'm on break from ministry but I still have to do real estate.Eden:

28:46Or I'm on break from real estate but I still am waiting on a call from a pastor or something, and so, like the unfortunate reality is bivocational pastors don't have that luxury to turn those things off all of them at once, because the timing is just not always good.Eden:

29:04But for those that get to do this full time, you have to set those boundaries, because if you don't, people are looking for your boundaries and they're not doing it in a cynical way, they're just they need people, need people and the pastor just happens to be one of the most accessible people to get. And so if the pastor doesn't have good boundaries, the congregants understand well, I can just go to him, go to her regardless. I know they on vacation, but I really need to know whether or not I should eat this thing or whether and it's all most of it is petty things. A lot of it is petty things. But every now and then you know, of course there has to be a limit, be ignored. But if you're, if you're, if you're allowing the little things to bother you, when you've set those boundaries, then you've not really set any boundaries, and people are going to continue to bring those little things to you, and so you condition the people around you with your boundaries.Margie:

30:10And you said it way nicer than I would just say you train them, you got to train them, Right right, train them up, right you know, Right, but yeah, if you don't train them, if you don't condition them to know like these are my boundaries, you need to respect them.Eden:

30:26they're going to go past them because they think they need you.Margie:

30:32And they don't know any better.Eden:

30:42Right. Right, because they never learned. And that's the thing is that in, in, in my, in my recovery, in my all this, what I've learned is broken people or break other people, and everyone's a little bit broken, so can't expect people to be 100% all the time, and I think a lot of people are redlining. I think a lot of people are just white knuckling their way through. A lot of pastors, primarily, are doing that, and even young pastors that I've met. I ask them, like what are your plans? And they have these huge goals and these huge plans and I'm like you got to slow down, like I was exactly where you were and I burnt out. It did not work out for me. They always say the same things I would have said, which is like, well, it just wouldn't work for you, but it'll work for me Because, I mean, the arrogance of young people is just, it's funny.Margie:

31:32Now it's funny. It wasn't yeah now it's the older you get. That's when you start fudging your age more and you look back and go.Eden:

31:42What was I? Thinking yeah yeah, oh yeah. I remember some of the things I in my early years, some of the goals I had in my early years, was like who, who do you think you are, that you think you could pull?Eden:

31:54that off and not to be not being deprecated, but it's like I was. I was, you know, thinking. I was a two-year pastor, thinking I could shift a whole denomination, like that's really unlikely. Or that I could lead the church that's really unlikely. A huge church, a small church, I probably could have handled. But I thought, like I can come in and I can just redo everything. No, you'll burn out, you'll die.Margie:

32:19How does then call fit into this picture?Eden:

32:28That's the beautiful part. Is that beautiful and annoying? But beautiful and annoying because for most of my life I knew I had a call to do something for.Margie:

32:41God, Because your dad was a pastor right.Eden:

32:44No my father-in-law. My dad was a business owner, but we were raised in the church and my mom was a treasurer. Anytime the doors were open, we were there.Margie:

32:55Anytime the doors were open.Eden:

32:55We were there Every time the doors were closed. We were there opening the doors. So we were constantly there and but my life, I always had sensed that I had a call. And the difficult thing is that my mom, when she was younger, living in Mexico, she had her own salvation moment and she in those moments said to God, I will dedicate one of my children to serve you, and didn't tell me that was me.Eden:

33:30And so it was. At one point I realized like I think I might have been manipulated into being a pastor, or talked into being a pastor and manipulating is a wrong word comparing to your mom, but like I felt like maybe maybe I wasn't supposed to be a pastor, Maybe that's why all these things are going wrong. But through the work that I have done and just taking a deep look at myself and my abilities and my you know and my desires, the call to ministry is the most prominent thing, and so, even when I've tried to run from it, I always go back to but how does this line up with this? How does this? How can I keep, how can I salvage this to use, to still continue to do this? And so God has just never let me go.Eden:

34:22Even when I asked him to let me go, even when I begged him to let me go, he's not let me go, and that has been what has kept me still in ministry. And you know, regarding the future, what my plans are. I don't know what the future holds. I don't know what my next assignment will look like. I don't know if I'll be here for 20 years. It could happen. Those things happen time to time. But I know that, regardless of where I am, my calling to minister to be a help to other people, to help other people find God or understand God better, that will somehow still be involved, because that's just the way it's always been involved, because that's just the way it's always been.Margie:

35:16And so my call has just been one that I can't get out of, even though I've tried to get out of it.Eden:

35:19It's one that I can't ignore. All the doors that have opened all narrowed down to this, and I can't, and at this point I don't want to. I want to stay as a pastor for my life. That would be ideal, whether or not you know, with what goes on in churches, with what goes on with denominations, with what goes on with cultures, whether or not I'll get to do this full time at this point in this age. It seems a little unlikely. But that's only because my pessimistic side of me, which is dominant of my pessimistic side, is like well, this is kind of not going well, so it might not work out. But the the optimistic side of me, the inspired side of me, is like well, regardless, it'll work out and you'll still be doing something, whether or not you're doing it full time or you're doing it kind of just as a person, that it'll still be happening in one way or the other.Margie:

36:20Right. Right, because your call comes from God and you're serving God's purposes and work in the world. And how that looks is it depends on where God plants your feet and the circumstances around you, but the call does not change. Right Whether it's a denominational thing or something else, and I know you also coach, so you've dabbled with that and that's a helping form of ministry as well.Eden:

36:54Yeah, I found coaching to be the glue that has kept a lot of what I do, or a lot of myself, together, but it's made what I do sustainable. So whenever I start something new, I go through the coaching process of well, why am I doing this, what are the challenges and what are the ways to make this viable, to keep this going for a long time, because I could try to start something and make it exciting and really expensive. Start something and make it exciting and really expensive, but then if I leave and it's it doesn't stick around, then that was a failure, and so I've. I've learned in my in my time in ministry you don't leave a place with a hole, you don't leave a place with a vacancy. You train up others to be able to take that on, and so here it's the same thing it's I don't want to overdo it under deliver, leave and then leave everybody with a crater of what was a youth ministry or what was an associate ministry, and so, yeah, Right, right.Margie:

38:08Well, I appreciate your sharing with us. I'm really intrigued that you some of what helps you find your way back was some Orthodox-related practices and some of it was some self-care practices. I know for me I had a spiritual director who heavily Ignatian-ed me and I tend to, you know, use some of that because it's very big picture kinds of questions about who you are and what you're doing, why you're doing it and and who you are before God. I really like that you have the the self-care piece, because we just we need to take care of. It's a stewardship issue for us to take care of who we are before God. This is the body that God has given to us and we need to take care of it mentally, emotionally, spiritually, physically all of those things together. If you could leave us with one thought, what would be the big thing that you would like to leave us with?Eden:

39:19Start small. Anything you do, start small. I had a tendency of going big with everything right at the beginning and realize, just that's not, I can't you, if I, if you can't run a marathon after sitting on a couch for 10 years, it just won't go well. And so the thing I've learned to be the most effective for for my, you know, recovery and and then, but then just of just of consistent life habits, is just start small, have a small goal and just do that consistently, because doing something once 100 times is better than doing something 20 times really intensely.Eden:

40:05And so if, over the span of a year, you only worked out four or five times for three hours at a time, that's not good. That's not great. But if you worked out 365 days a year for 10 minutes a day, that's significantly more, and I don't know how significantly. I'm bad at math, but the issue is you have to start small and sustainable and build on those things as you get better and better. Like one of my hobbies do your hobbies, find a hobby that you like and truly do it.Eden:

40:44One of the things that has brought me a lot of life has been just creative storytelling, like writing, just writing stories, and they have no purpose. They don't have an audience. There's no reason to these stories that I have. I have like 30, 40 stories in my notes that I've just been working on for the past year and I like them. I think they're funny, I think they're cute. My wife thinks they're funny, but I don't do them because I want to make a living with it. I just do them because it excites me.Eden:

41:15I have an idea, I write it out, I look at it and like that was a good idea or that that didn't work, and then I just start over and I have a practice I have if I could leave you with two things is have a set of practices every day, that these are the things that are non-negotiable. These are the things you have to do. Everything else is negotiable and if you can build on those things you can, you can do a lot more. For me, one of those practices is writing you just every day, you spend some time writing and I was never a writer before I could write.Eden:

41:45You know, I have a master's degree. I've written pages of research for that degree, but I never saw myself as a creative writer or a storyteller until I just started writing. And, ironically, one of the first things I did at the beginning of my recovery of burnout was I had an idea for a story and I just started writing it and I gained so much joy from it that I kept doing it. And then I got distracted with another idea and I started writing. And so, like that, that first story that I started sits on my computer as a, as a document. It's just like are you going to, are you going to finish this?Eden:

42:28But, like working on all these other stories because it's it's still just something that I enjoy. But. But I'm like working on all these other stories because it's it's still just something that I enjoy, but that that open document doesn't cause me anxiety Like some of these other things that cause me anxiety that are left on open because it brings me joy. It brings, it, excites me, it's something fun that I get to do, and I think it's important that pastors specifically engage in their creative outlets, without trying to turn it into a sermon, without trying to turn it into a Bible study, because your pastors generally are creative people. You have to kind of have to be creative. So engage in that, because that's it's not just for work. Not everything you do has to be work. So start small and not everything has to be work would be the things that I would leave you with.Margie:

43:23I like it, I like it and I. I was the person who made fun of people with a craft room and I I didn't get it until I got into. I took a class on stained glass about nine or ten years ago and I have like saws and electrical, all kinds of my. I have a workshop. That's just a beast that's awesome of a workshop I sold.Eden:

43:50I sold a house to a lady who the whole process she was like I need to have a yarn room, I need to have a room that's specifically this big for yarn. And I was getting tired of looking for houses with a big enough room for a yarn room and I was like why, why do you need a yarn room? And then when I sold her the house and we moved in and I saw all the quilts that she made, I was like, oh, good lord, yeah, that's why, like, that's incredible, it's beautiful, yeah and it, it.Margie:

44:15It's part of restoring your soul, it's part of christ leading you to the quiet waters and the green grass and just chill there for a minute and think about one thing, just that, and only that, which is our brains go in too many directions at once and that's fatiguing. So that's what I learned, anyway. Well, thank you so much. I really appreciate you being willing to come on and to share, and I know it will be helpful to those who listen. So thank you very much.Eden:

44:51Thank you for having me.Margie:

45:03Hey, friends, to those who listen, so thank you very much. Thank you for having me. Hey, friends, the crabby pastor podcast is sponsored by bryce art glass and you can find that on facebook. I make stained glass that's part of my self-care and also by Bryce Coaching, where I coach ministry leaders and business leaders, and so the funds that I generate from coaching and from making stained glass is what is supporting this podcast and I will have opportunities for you to be a part of sponsoring me and, as always, you can do the buy me a cup of coffee thing in the show notes. But I will have some other ways that you can be a part of getting the word out about the importance of healthy self-care for ministry ministry leaders.Margie:

45:52Hey, thanks for listening. It is my deep desire and passion to champion issues of sustainability in ministry and for your life, so I'm here to help. I stepped back from pastoral ministry and I feel called to help ministry leaders create and cultivate sustainability in their lives so that they can go the distance with God and whatever plans that God has for you. I would love to help. I would consider it an honor and in all things and honor and in all things, make sure you connect to these sustainability practices, you know, so that you don't become the crabby Pastor.

View Details

While on sabbatical (yes, I'm taking my own advice), we are replaying podcasts where our brave guests tell their journey into and out of burnout. You won't want to miss these as there's always something to learn from others, right? What happens when the weight of ministry becomes too heavy to bear? Pastor Pat Robbins from Brown City United Methodist Church courageously shares his journey through a period of intense burnout. He faced a harrowing series of personal and professional challenges: losing multiple church members to grappling with family tragedies and his own severe health issues. Pastor Pat opens up about the overwhelming stress these events placed on him, especially during the pandemic, and how it ultimately led him to a breaking point.Join us as Pastor Pat unpacks how he recognized burnout, the physical and emotional toll it took, and his path to recovery. This episode shines a light on the critical need for support and resources for ministry leaders. Whether you're currently experiencing similar struggles or seeking to better understand the pressures of ministry, Pastor Pat's story offers valuable insights and encouragement. Remember, no matter how isolated or overwhelmed you might feel, there's always hope and help available. Reach out, connect, and let’s walk this journey together.

Support the Show.

🦀 🦀 🦀

Find regular support on my Facebook group by clicking HERE.Connect with me about COACHING and Workshops on self-care HERE.

TranscriptMargie: 0:01

And sometimes as ministry leaders we isolate, we don't get the help we need.Margie: 1:27

We are concerned about where we can be open, honest and vulnerable and we aren't sure where the resources are where we can get help.Margie: 1:39

So I'm hoping that Pastor Pat's story here will prod you to get the help that you need and maybe consider resources, consider who you might speak with friends, colleagues, supervisors.Margie: 1:54

If you really feel like you don't have anyone, you can always reach out to me at either the Krabby Pastor you can go to krabbypastorcom and connect with me through the website or margie, at margiebricecom. Reach out to me and maybe I'll put a link in the show notes so you could do that if you really feel like you have no one that you want to hash this around with. So that's my encouragement to you and listen closely and intently to this veteran pastor. Tell his story In this episode of the Krabby Pastor podcast. I am here with Pastor Pat Robbins at Brown City United Methodist Church and he has so graciously offered to share his story, to talk about the kinds of things that he experienced as he approached burnout and then where he is at now. And I'm very thankful, pat, that you're willing to come on here, that you're willing to share, always with the hope that other people will come away with something for their toolbox.Pat: 3:07

Yes, I agree.Margie: 3:09

Yes.Pat: 3:10

My pleasure.Margie: 3:11

Oh, thank you, thank you. So I want to ask you, though, to start out, how long have you been in pastoral ministry? I think.Pat: 3:21

I've been in pastoral ministry going on 27 years 27 years.Margie: 3:25

That's a long time. I know you've had a really good run, a really solid ministry here, and the point of pointing that out is that it's kind of interesting how you were in ministry that long and then it's later in your ministry that you do come to experience burnout and it really has caused some shifts for you. But tell us how you came to understand that you were experiencing burnout.Pat: 3:58

Well, it sort of came to pass when the crazy election was going on and then we were dealing with the pandemic and, like many of our colleagues, there's a lot of stress going on because of the pandemic in the local churches here in Brown City. We had like 14 of our members had passed away and that brought a lot of extra stress. At the same time I had an aunt, an uncle, a grandson that died. My daughter was diagnosed with cancer, my lifelong friend had died and it was just overwhelming at the time it all happened and it seemed like such a short time that it was really hard to breathe. It was hard to find uh rest. I was pretty weary. Uh people would ask me, are you okay? And I would say yeah, I'm okay, but I really wasn't. I didn't know, uh quite how to handle what was going on in my body and in my mind, because I also had the COVID for 17 days.Pat: 5:07

we were pretty sick after the COVID. I had lost my eyesight and I had to have new lenses put in my eyes and I'd lost my hearing. So I have hearing aids now and it all just happened. It was like one right after another and there was just I didn't know where to turn. And this was like one right after another, and there was just I didn't know where to turn.Margie: 5:27

And this was over a span of how many months that all this happened.Pat: 5:31

This was over a span of about 13 or 14 months. Okay.Margie: 5:35

Okay, I remember you telling me about you were still very passionate about ministry and that you were going to nursing homes, very passionate about ministry and that you were going to nursing homes, and I think you were crawling up a ladder to Well, during the, during the pandemic, there was a woman in the nursing home in Seedling, barb Downing, and I went to visit Barb.Pat: 5:58

I was told that she was dying of bone cancer and Barb was a friend of ours and when I went to see her at the nursing home at that time you were not allowed to go into nursing homes, but they had set up a 20 foot ladder outside with a set of scaffolding beside the ladder.Pat: 6:16

So I got to climb the ladder and sit on the scaffolding outside of Barb's window and minister to her that way. Knowing that when I climbed down the ladder that was the last time I was going to see her, was pretty difficult. But I thank God for the time that I was able to spend with her and touch her hand through the screen and pray with her. I am forever grateful for that opportunity.Margie: 6:42

You sound like you did some amazing ministry During that time in your church. You were still, by all accounts, looking pretty strong through COVID and you're in a small rural town, but you were having some successful ministry, so it would look good, pretty respectable on paper, right.Pat: 7:01

It looked good on paper and I think for me, when the day my daughter came over to tell me she had cancer, that was that was pretty difficult. You know, I have one daughter and she'll always be my baby girl, no matter how old she was. And it was just. And then a short time after that, her grandson died and it was just overwhelming, so trying to put on that pastoral face for everybody else. But when you look in the mirror you were really struggling, I was really struggling.Margie: 7:45

So what would you say? The telltale signs of burnout approaching would be.Pat: 7:52

Well, the telltale sign for me was I couldn't sleep, I couldn't eat, I was irritable and all of a sudden I just wanted to hide, because it was really difficult at the time and it was hard to be the happy-go-loving pastor for everybody when I was hurting so deep inside of myself.Margie: 8:17

Yeah I was going to say because I don't think hide is in your nature Really.Pat: 8:21

No, hiding is not in my nature. Yeah, there was just so much stuff going on at the same time.Margie: 8:31

So how did you get the help that you needed?Pat: 8:35

Well, you know I thank God for the District Board of Ordained Ministry. I'm a local pastor. Each year we go before the District Board of Ordained Ministry and the day of my Zoom meeting with the District Board I think pretty much everybody on the committee could see that I was weary and at some point in our conversation somebody had mentioned taking a sabbatical time, which I really never heard of that before. I didn't know that there was such a thing available.Margie: 9:06

You never heard of a sabbatical before.Pat: 9:09

No, I didn't know that there was such a thing. Oh, the district board said well, we need to talk to the superintendent. So I'm assuming after I was done with my zoom meeting with them they contacted the superintendent because Reverend Heiss called me that afternoon. It was like three days later. I was on a six week sabbatical which in all my years of ministry was one of the biggest blessings that I experienced. In all my years of ministry was one of the biggest blessings that I experienced.Margie: 9:38

So were you the kind of pastor then that made sure you took all of your vacation time every year before?Pat: 9:44

No, not usually. No, didn't really worry about taking the day off. Didn't always take the vacation. Would put family things aside to do church things. Everything came before my wife and I.Pat: 9:59

We were church, church, church. I think one of the things I've learned through this whole process is that I need to take care of me first. I need to make sure that I'm all right. I need to make sure that I'm healthy. I need to make sure that I'm well-rested. I need to make sure that I'm all right. I need to make sure that I'm healthy. I need to make sure that I'm well rested. I need to make sure that I'm in God's word and when I get revived and when I'm well, then I can minister better is what I've learned.Margie: 10:28

That's a key takeaway. Talk to me about your sabbatical. What did you do? Or?Pat: 10:35

not do. What we did was we went up to Grayling and stayed in our Aunt Diane's house. She had recently died. Her and Uncle Jim died just a little bit apart. We stayed in their bed and breakfast, which is 15 feet off of the Manistee River, and we spent a lot of time in devotion, a lot of time in prayer, a lot of time in rest. The first week of the sabbatical was very difficult. My cousin kept asking me what's wrong with you? What's wrong with you? Well, for the first time in my ministry, I was to do nothing, I was to rest and my wife and I were to take care of ourselves. And up until that point, I wasn't very good at that. I wasn't very good at taking care of myself. I always wanted to take care of everybody else. I'm a morning person. I'm usually up at 4 or 4.30 every morning. The funny thing is, on sabbatical there were days where we both slept until 10 o'clock in the morning, and that's unheard of.Pat: 11:47

I think that was a way of our bodies catching up on what we needed Right. So the sabbatical was a very peaceful time. Got to experience the wonders of God's creation right on the river. Most every morning there was one or two eagles in the tree outside of our door. It was just a wonderful time to be revived and to listen to what God had to tell me, and I do thank the Board of Ordained Ministry, I thank the superintendent for making a way for that to take me, and I do thank the board of ordained ministry. I thank the superintendent for making a way for that to take place. I like to call it a renewal, not a sabbatical, because what it did for both my wife and I it renewed us, it lifted our spirit, it lifted our energy and I think I have a better focus now.Margie: 12:40

You mentioned someone that called and said what's wrong with you. What kind of responses did you get from people around you?Pat: 12:48

For some of the folks. They asked what's wrong with you? You look tired, you okay today, today, pastor, and my response was always the same I'm fine, but I really wasn't fine. But you know, I've learned over my ministry that, uh, I don't share a lot with, I don't. I don't have a real big circle of people where I can share me. So I I acted like everything was okay. When everything wasn't okay, I tried to be the best spiritual leader during that time that I could be, but it wore me out. It really did.Margie: 13:29

Right, right. And when people found out you were on sabbatical, what was their response to that?Pat: 13:35

Oh, the response from this local church was fantastic. People came out of their comfort zone and they took on leadership roles and this church functioned quite well while we were gone. I thank God that we have a great secretary who helps keep this place running, and there were just people that normally wouldn't step forward that did, and everything ran rather smooth while we were gone.Margie: 13:59

Great, great. That's always a blessing to hear that and people then understand that, hey, this is our church too, and they step up and they take that ownership. How would you say that your ministry life now is different from ministry life, say, before you experienced burnout?Pat: 14:21

Well, one thing.Pat: 14:22

I know for certain is that I'm able to say no, and before I could never say no or I would never say no. But I can't do it all. And I've learned that that we're all in this together, be it our colleagues or be it our lay people. We're all in this ministry stuff together and we need to depend on each other. And I don't think I was a lone ranger you know, it wasn't my way or the highway but I like to do things. I like to lead by example. People see, and maybe then they'll follow.Pat: 15:00

But I think the best thing I've learned to say no that I don't have to do it all, that, uh, if I'm sitting down to have dinner and the phone rings, that I don't have to get up and leave my dinner and come back and eat it when it's cold, that I can finish my dinner and then go on to what the task is ahead. You know, I know of a colleague that had mentioned that he could really use a sabbatical, but he also stated that he doesn't think that he could leave the church because the church couldn't function without him. And I don't know if he'll listen to this, but I hope he does, because we have the pastor. We have to be healthy first and there are people in the congregation that will step up and and take that leadership role while we get the need, the care that we need. So I think that's important that pastors take time and first care for themselves.Margie: 15:59

Okay, what do you do now, then for self-care that maybe you didn't do before?Pat: 16:05

Well, I walk more in devotion, I read more, I rest more.Margie: 16:17

What do you do to rest? We have trouble stopping. That's why I'm bringing that up. Well, you know.Pat: 16:22

I just came off a vacation. We took 30 days and went and lived on the Betsy River over in Frankfurt, michigan, and salmon fished. So being outdoors is a way for me to rest. Spending time with my just me and the Lord is a time of rest, and spending time with my family and my wife. We've been together 47 years. We've been married and we're just now starting to spend more time with each other, because we've learned that if all we do is ministry, then we neglect each other and I've learned.Margie: 16:57

that's very important and I know she's a very active part of your ministry there as well.Pat: 17:02

She's very, very active in every aspect of my ministry.Margie: 17:08

That's a real treasure. So what would you say? This is your moment to say something to your fellow ministry colleagues. Go ahead and take the soapbox for a minute, pat.Pat: 17:22

What I'd like to say to my colleagues is that our superintendent is not our enemy, that he's our friend and he's there to help us, and the Board of Ordinary ministry is there to help us. They're not our enemy and it's okay for us to ask for help, to reach out and find that we're weary and ask for help and see what can be done to help us rejuvenate ourselves. I probably never would have asked because I didn't know that it was available to have such a thing, but I thank God that my colleagues saw the weariness and mentioned it first, because Karen and I got the blessing of that time away.Margie: 18:09

Great, great Well, I really appreciate it. Do you want to add anything else to what we've chatted? I really do appreciate your sharing this. When I heard your story of what those 13 months were like, I just wow, that's a lot and you don't have to be pressed all the way against the wall like you pretty much were. To seek routine self-care, to seek a sabbatical, I think in some denominations I think ours you're eligible every seven years-ish. There's a criteria. So if you have served that many years, you are eligible to take a sabbatical and that's just a wonderful resource. And I still am shocked that you had been in ministry that long and was unaware that that was available to you.Pat: 19:00

One last reminder from the Krabby Pastor is it can happen.Margie: 19:04

It absolutely can happen. Well, thank you so much for sharing your story and giving us a glimpse into how you can go through burnout and then come back out on the other side in a better place, because I know ministry is going well for you right now, isn't it?Pat: 19:20

Yes, it is, things are well.Margie: 19:22

Yeah, even post-COVID, and the challenges that that is and that has been and will continue to be for a little while yet. But, yeah, I want to thank you so much for sharing with us today.Pat: 19:35

Thank you very much.Margie: 19:46

Have a blessed day. Okay, you too, please reach out and get the help that you need. If you, or maybe a colleague is experiencing burnout and just can't seem to move past, move beyond or through situations and the fatigue level is there, don't do nothing. Don't just think that an afternoon is going to take care of it. There are times and places where God is asking us just to stop totally for a period of time what you're doing. So reach out, go to the show notes. I'll put a link to connect with me via email if you really have no one else to reach out to.Margie: 20:27

You don't want to become the Crabby pastor. Hey, thanks for listening. It is my deep desire and passion to champion issues of sustainability in ministry and for your life, so I'm here to help. I stepped back from pastoral ministry and I feel called to help ministry leaders create and cultivate sustainability in their lives so that they can go the distance with God and whatever plans that God has for you. I would love to help, I would consider it an honor and, in all things, make sure you connect to these sustainability practices, you know, so that you don't become the crabby pastor.

View Details

While on sabbatical (yes, I'm taking my own advice), we are replaying podcasts where our brave guests tell their journey into and out of burnout. You won't want to miss these as there's always something to learn from others, right? This is the story that Rev. Tony Miltenberger shared with me and it's one where he draws parallels with his demanding time in the Army Reserves. Our conversation underscores the dangers of righteous indignation in ministry and the importance of balancing personal responsibilities to avoid losing oneself in the mission.For ministry leaders seeking practical advice to prevent burnout and build emotionally healthy practices, this episode is a goldmine. Tony offers invaluable insights on navigating the recovery process, the role of marriage and personal counseling, and the creation of life-giving rhythms inspired by Pete Scazzero. We also talk about the crucial need for pastors to carve out personal spiritual renewal time, independent of their ministry duties. Learn from Tony's experiences as he highlights how genuine disciple-making can transform your ministry and ensure you thrive both personally and professionally. Tune in for a heartfelt discussion packed with strategies to help you cultivate a sustainable and fulfilling ministry life.

Support the Show.

🦀 🦀 🦀

Find regular support on my Facebook group by clicking HERE.Connect with me about COACHING and Workshops on self-care HERE.

TranscriptMargie: 0:01

Well, thank you so much for having me on the show today. It's a real treat to be here. I'll tell you that I was in a local church for just over 10 years and now I work for a 501c3 nonprofit called Spirit and Truth, where we walk alongside and equip the local church in areas of disciple-making, evangelism and leaning into the power of the Holy Spirit. So I get to travel all over the country and talk to church leaders and pastors about disciple-making. I also get to create content for disciple making and I blog a little bit we have a sub stack and then also record two podcasts one called the Reclamation Podcast, the other one is called the Practitioners Podcast. Both of them are all about Jesus style disciple making and what that looks like.Margie: 1:43

Okay, and you're kind of crazy about disciple making, aren't you?Tony : 1:48

It's my passion, it's what wakes me up at night, gets me thinking. I think far too often we sell short the idea of disciple making and the fullness of life with Christ that comes with disciple making, and for the last couple of decades the church has done not a great job at teaching people to follow Jesus, but instead teaching them how to go to church, and that little nuance change could change everything.Margie: 2:12

Yeah, we're supposed to be disciple making factories. I think I read somewhere once and that has kind of lost its steam a little bit, I don't yeah, so hopefully recapturing that will be a huge, huge plus. So one thing I do want to do up front, because I always seem to forget this, and I had somebody graphically remind me they said the big disappointment for them they said this at the end of the interview was that I, here I am, I'm on the Krabby Pastor podcast and you never asked me what makes me Krabby. So before I forget to do that, I want to ask you, tony, what makes you Krabby and what do you do about that?Tony : 2:58

In life or in pastoring? Let me ask that differently.Margie: 3:02

Oh, all right, We'll let you off the hook and just say ministry related.Tony : 3:08

Ministry related. What makes me most crabby is when people see the church as a place to be a consumer and not an owner. So when people come in and complain about things like worship times or music or volume and all of a sudden they're just resorted to the idea that they're a consumer of the ministry and not an owner of God's mission.Margie: 3:39

And that will do it right yeah.Tony : 3:43

And the only thing I know how to do after that is to pray, because it's really hard to get someone who's seen themselves as a consumer their whole life to become an owner in one statement. So pray and then get close to him for disciple making.Margie: 3:57

Yes, yes, great, great, well good, thank you. I didn't want to forget to ask you that, since you are on the Krabby Pastor podcast. But the reason I asked you on here is because you have it sounds kind of strange to say a great burnout story. Just, I don't know, that feels a little irreverent. I don't mean to be irreverent this time, but what I wanted to ask you about then is your role when you were in pastoral ministry and your burnout journey.Tony : 4:34

Yeah. So I think the best place to start is to know that my ministry career started in the Army Reserves. So I was a chaplain's assistant in the Army Reserve and I got to travel around the world helping soldiers connect with God. And so I did that and it was great and I really struggled to find my identity and, like so many people, after a deployment I was in Kuwait from 04 to 05. I went and started bouncing around jobs and not sure that I could do ministry, and then in 2011, I jumped into ministry full-time at a very large United Methodist Church called Ginghamsburg United Methodist Church and I was the director of adult education and then eventually made my way up to being a pastor in the Methodist Church as a licensed local pastor and became pastor of adult discipleship, and it was in that role that I really began to experience burnout. But I want to be clear it's not burnout because I was so overworked. It's burnout because I lost myself in the process.Margie: 5:53

Hmm, and what did that look like?Tony : 5:59

Well, this may sound funny to a lot of people, but the local church is the closest thing I ever found to the army, and so the local church is like the army in the way that it connects with what we call the warrior ethos, which is I will always place the mission first, I will never accept defeat and I will never leave a fallen comrade. So if you take someone who's kind of an extremist like myself or someone who's all in on the mission like myself, and you put them in the local church, what you will quickly find is that there is always work to be done. There's always work to be done, and this is the most beautiful part. I don't know if all your pastors that you've had on talk about this, but there's something beautiful about righteous indignation when it comes to the work that you're doing right. So you can blow off your family, you can blow off your responsibilities, you can blow off all the things that go with a Christian life, because you're working for the church and no one bats an eye.Tony : 7:04

Another way to say it comparison to the army. My wife and I found out we were pregnant after I had been home on deployment, and so I missed the first trimester for pregnancy because I was still on deployment. And I always tell guys that if you can miss the first trimester of a because I was still on deployment, and I always tell guys that if you can miss the first trimester of a pregnancy and blame it on the global war on terror, that's a really good thing.Tony : 7:25

I suppose, yeah, it's kind of funny, right, but the same thing is actually true with the church that you can blow off your family for the sake of the mission of the church, even though that's not what God desires of us. And actually that's what happened to me and that really caused a lot of tension in my marriage and it caused a lot of tension just in my life.Margie: 7:47

Right, Well, I thought initially you were going to go with be all you can be. I actually had a pastor and he was an amazing pastor. He was saying that years before that became what is it the army slogan or whatever, but he meant be all you can be in Christ. So he was trying to tie our identity that way. However, it sounds like your identity was tied to the mission and in the church, the mission is important, what we're about is important, but you took it to a different level.Tony : 8:25

Well, so here's the thing right when I began to idolize the mission and the work of the church, I lost sight of who Jesus really was for me. And so in my case and this is an extreme case I'm aware of I had three kids all under the age of 10, two boys and a princess. My family life at home was rough because I was never there, and eventually that idea of trying to figure out who I was as a pastor, serving all the people, trying to keep everyone happy it, led me to a really, just, really, really dark place.Margie: 9:09

Yeah, I've heard this story before. You know, I'm not minimizing yours at all, but I have heard this before. It's forsaking everything for the mission and just ignoring the family life around you, the people God has placed close to you, and not just ignoring it like in a mean way, but setting it aside and going all in for the mission for the sake of Jesus, you know, because what it all depends just on you. I'm being tongue in cheek.Tony : 9:44

Sure, of course, of course. But that's a pretty accurate description of how I felt. And the funny part is and I can see this now from the hindsight is the resentment of my wife's frustration was part of this buildup for me. So here I am, serving in the church, I'm doing all these amazing things for the Lord, I'm leading. At that point in time we had 120 life groups and so I'm leading 120 life group leaders. There's thousands of people.Tony : 10:13

Everyone is so excited about what God is doing through discipleship in the church and there was one particular individual, a staff member, and her and I just became really close and we're working on the mission together. We're working on the mission together. My wife is not supporting me. From my perspective, you know, in hindsight now I can see that that's not actually the case, but in the moment you couldn't convince me that my wife was being supportive of what God had called me to. So look at this perfect storm kind of forming A guy who's taken his identity and he's put it all in his work, a wife who's really struggling with three young kids One of them still even has the new car smell and then a co-worker who I become inappropriately close to and it led me right into an emotional affair and it almost cost me my marriage.Margie: 11:07

Yeah, that was. My next question is because I think you're still married to the same person, right? Yes, yeah.Tony : 11:18

And honestly, there was another pastor on the team when I was in the midst of this emotional affair who saved my life and it was probably the bravest thing that anyone's ever done for me.Tony : 11:33

And one thing that the Methodist church has always been really good about is encouraging community. So as I was becoming a pastor, I had this kind of group of guys, guy pastors, who I was close with. Well, one of them had become especially close, a dear friend of mine, james Keith Posey, and James Keith and I were in his office and I felt God kind of compel me to tell him what was going on. And I knew what I was doing was wrong, was sinful, because there's nothing in God's word that would ever indicate that God wants me to go against my marital vows, even though in my head I can justify it Like hey, I hadn't touched her. Like you know, we were texting all the time, we were calling all the time, but for the most part I blamed it all on the work of the Lord and even though that was an inaccurate description of what I was doing, right, you can't live in sin and do God's work.Margie: 12:29

And blame Jesus for it.Tony : 12:31

right yeah, right yeah and so james keith, my dear friend, I said, hey, I want you to know that I'm. I've got a bad situation going on with this girl, like I'm not sure what I'm gonna do. I need to end it, but I'm just having a really hard time and we work together and man, she's just really. She's really a nice human, you know and, and I enjoy being around her and she brings me joy and like all these kind of lies that I had told myself. And he looked at me, deadpan, and he said, tony, I'm going to help you. And I was like, great, you're going to go talk to her and let her know that we can't be friends anymore. And he said, no, if you don't tell your wife today, I'm going to tell her tomorrow.Margie: 13:19

Wow, that did take courage, definitely, and he was definitely a good friend to you. Maybe it didn't feel like it exactly at that moment, but he was definitely a good friend to you.Tony : 13:32

Yeah, the thing is is it's oftentimes in the moment. It's hard to see that my judgment couldn't be trusted at the time, and I would say this to any pastor that's listening when you're in the midst of burnout, when you're in the midst of a downward spiral, the person in the mirror is not someone whose advice can be taken seriously, because if you can't see God clearly, you surely cannot see the situation clearly. And that's also why I think, when God designed us, we were never designed to do ministry alone. That following Jesus, as I like to say, is a team sport.Margie: 14:21

Hey, Margie Bryce here and I have something free for you.Margie: 14:23

If you are unsure of what your mindset is when it comes to self-care, if you know you should do self-care but you're just not sure how to get that rolling, how to get started, I have a free ebook for you and it is about radical self care and it will get you started thinking about it and has lots of helpful information. Actually, what it is, more than anything else, is a journal style kind of piece that will help you work through the process of self evaluation so you get a sense of where you are with self care. So, to get this free ebook, I'm going to put a link in the show notes and you can access it from there and it can help you get started on the self care that you know you should be doing anyway and get you started maybe on taking some definitive action to ensure that you have the sustainability necessary to go the distance with God, with God. So your burnout led you into a vulnerability and a situation that you then had to find a way out of. Talk to us some about that.Tony : 15:51

Yeah, the reality is the burnout had just taken me off the rails, and so that night I went home and told my wife what was going on, and the next day we made a plan to go in and tell the senior pastor. I was an associate pastor at the time and we had to confess to the senior pastor what was going on, and by God's grace and his grace I didn't get fired, because certainly it would have been within his rights. I was in a sinful, inappropriate relationship, even though we hadn't touched each other physically, emotionally we were pretty well intertwined. And then the next year of my life was spent digging out of burnout and digging out of the sin and digging into creating new rhythms and guardrails that would give me the ability to do God's work in a healthy way.Margie: 16:44

And talk to us some about some of what that entailed the digging out.Tony : 16:50

Lots of marriage counseling, lots of marriage counseling, lots of my own counseling. I'm now, gosh, almost 10 years removed from that and I still see a counselor once a month, even if even if I don't have anything urgent to talk about, I treat it like an oil change. The other thing is is marriage counseling, personal counseling and then marriage retreats. So we really needed to begin to reform the foundation of our marriage at that point in time, 10, 10 and a half, almost 11 years in, so that was an important part of the healing process for us is creating new ideas, new rhythms, new boundaries on, and what that would look like.Tony : 17:38

You know, I don't think anyone wakes up one day and says, man, I want to fall into burnout, or when, I want to fall into sin, or I want to fall into a place that could potentially ruin my ministry. What ends up happening is is we get out of the disciplines that keep us in a healthy place, and so discipline, you know, as the Hebrews reminds us, never feels pleasant at the time I think this is Hebrews 12, but it levels the path in front of us, and so oftentimes we feel like I felt like that I was in burnout because the path wasn't level. I was going up a hill that I couldn't get my footing on, and discipline is one of the ways that I really believe that creates a level path.Margie: 18:23

So how would you say that that experience informs how you do ministry today?Tony : 18:31

I would say that everything is done differently now because of that experience, and so I have different guardrails, I have different rules about how I'm close with people of the opposite sex. I have rules about my personal devotions. I have rules about, like, how I approach the word and prayer and, just honestly, the importance of ministry in general. When you risk losing your entire family, ministry doesn't seem that important and I think, by God's grace, I've been able to keep that perspective over the years. Now I also have a really strict kind of rule of life, and I borrowed this from Pete Scazzaro Emotionally Healthy, spiritually. I'm sure you're familiar with it.Tony : 19:14

It's that rule of life has really helped formed my practices. So I also learned that don't negotiate on your schedule when you're feeling rather emotional, right? When you're hungry, angry, lonely, tired. In the recovery world we call that halt right. So don't make a decision about ministry when you're hungry, angry, lonely or tired.Margie: 19:37

Right, well, say, can you go back? Let's circle back for just a second for our listeners that may not be aware or in touch with the Pete Scazzaro rule of life.Tony : 19:50

Yeah, it's kind of this idea that we create boundaries for the things that we value and are important for us. So the rule of life is like hey, I have a rule around work, I have a rule around physical, I have a rule around spiritual and emotional, and then I have a rule around my family. So one of the things in my rule of life is that I won't work more than three nights a week. So, no matter what, I don't work more than three nights a week. I go to the gym three to five times a week, I go to my therapist once a month, I do devotionals every day and I pray over my wife every night.Margie: 20:28

Nice, nice. What would you say then to our listeners? That is maybe a warning sign that burnout is in the process, in the making. Can you offer us any identifiers of that? Or times that okay, if this is going down, if I'm feeling this way, if I'm looking at life this way?Tony : 20:59

this way, if I'm looking at life this way, I'm probably heading down, not the best path. Yeah, I would say that when your identity becomes something that you think that you can strive after, right. So for me, burnout is often goes hand in glove with striving. So if I think that I can chase down my identity, right, If my identity is my work, if my identity is any of those things, then I know that I'm already in a really bad place, you know. And that bad place is not going to, it's going to spiral me out of control eventually. So I would tell you to pause, take a look around, ask yourself have you become your job? And if the answer is yes, you're on a one-way path to burnout.Margie: 21:42

Right, right, and technically speaking, you know, as ministry leaders it's not really a job per se, but it's very easy to get caught up in that. But it's a vocation and a calling, and nowhere in scripture do we see Jesus. It says Jesus is booked like a lunatic to Bethany. I mean, you just don't see that kind of thing we have in North American Christianity. I'll speak to that point that we are the ones that tend to produce the type A overdriven nickels. Noses are the things that matter and my identity is tied to my job performance. Right, and ministry doesn't function like that. Yet the challenge is majority of churches are 75 or fewer people in North America right now, unless you have the fortune of living down the street from Omega, something which, for the smaller church pastors, can be a challenge and a pressure for them to do more and more and more and more.Tony : 22:54

Yeah, performance-based rewards in the church world feel exactly the opposite of what Jesus would want.Margie: 23:02

Yeah, you caught the most fish, so you win the prize.Tony : 23:07

Well, I often tell pastors now when I talk to them about disciple-making if Jesus was in our churches today, we would fire him, because he was really rather exclusive in the people that he poured into. He was inclusive in serving everyone, but he was exclusive in who we spent time with and what that looks like. If you said, hey, for the next three years I'm only going to hang out with 12 guys and three of them are going to be extra close. Everybody else, I'm just going to kind of pop by and do this thing here, this thing there. I'm not going to go to any committee meetings and I'm not going to bow down to the cultural idols that already exist in the church. I'm pretty sure no one would survive.Margie: 23:49

According to the institutional, that's right. The church institutions, pressures, and and heaven forbid, you didn't even have to fill out any paperwork, did you? No reports, no annual reports and all that.Tony : 24:03

That's 100% right.Margie: 24:04

Yeah, the institutional aspect of the church has really put a whole other level of pressure on pastors. And then they start running according to that pressure, not according to the pace and load that Jesus asks us. And then the next thing you know, you're in a place that you never intended to be in. You're vulnerable in a way that you never expected to be. So that's some of what I've seen, heard and all that, and I've experienced burnout not exactly in the same way that you did, but burnout nonetheless where I was just no good to nobody for a period of time, where it's like don't even follow me to the corner store.Tony : 24:51

Yeah, I mean, I think that that's right. No one wakes up one day and says, man, I really want to get burned out. What we end up doing is we end up shortcutting the lordship of Jesus.Margie: 25:03

Oh, say more about that. That's a pretty big statement.Tony : 25:08

Well, it's kind of summarizing. What you were just saying is that if I think that I'm the savior of the church, then how can Jesus be lord of my life? If I think that everyone's here to see me and I have something to do with attendance, then how can Jesus be Lord of my life? But if we're brave enough to just focus on Jesus and keep Jesus in the heart of what we're trying to do, I think we'll end up seeing some pretty incredible results.Margie: 25:41

Right? Well, I'm going to close our session a little bit here, head towards that and just ask you what would be your top couple of things that you would want to say to a pastor who may be experiencing burnout or thinks they might be. What would you say to them right now?Tony : 26:00

I believe that every pastor needs a counselor. Whether that counselor is professional or if it's a coach or if it's just there, has to be someone where you can unload the crazy parts of your brain into. So that would be the first thing I would say. The second thing I would say is no one from your church, no matter what church you serve, no matter how long you've been there, are going to be the people that stand beside you on your deathbed.Tony : 26:28

That's going to be your family, that's going to be your wife and kids, or your husband and kids, so don't prioritize strangers over the people who are going to walk with you for the rest of your life, and so those would probably be the areas where I would tell people to start. And then the last thing is something that I've noticed a lot is so many pastors I hear and talk to are so busy doing ministry they're not letting Jesus minister to them. Doing ministry, they're not letting Jesus minister to them. So find time in the stillness of the morning or the stillness of the night to be intentional with your devotional time to Jesus and make sure that you're looking at scripture. That's not related to something you have to preach on.Margie: 27:13

Yes, the two for one. Don't do the two for one well. Thank you so much, tony, for sharing with us, for being brave. I'm interviewing a few pastors that have come back from burnout during this month and I appreciate your vulnerability to share with us, so thank you so much for joining us well.Tony : 27:36

Thank you for having me and for the ministry you're doing to so many of our brothers and sisters in Christ all over the US.Margie: 27:42

Well, you're welcome and we'll talk again, I'm sure, soon and at some point. Hey, thanks for listening. It is my deep desire and passion to champion issues of sustainability in ministry and for your life, so I'm here to help. I stepped back from pastoral ministry and I feel called to help ministry leaders create and cultivate sustainability in their lives so that they can go the distance with God and whatever plans that God has for you. I would love to help, I would consider it an honor and, in all things, make sure you connect to these sustainability practices you know, so that you don't become the Crabby pastor.

View Details

I'm exploring the essence of what it means to be 'called' in this Transitional era for the Church. God is calling us to follow Jesus wholeheartedly into 'new things' which means emergence of ministries that are both within and outside the conventional framework. I share my insights into how these shifts demand a renewed focus on holistic self-care and call for a missional approach to ministry, tapping into the unique gifts of congregations to serve communities earnestly and effectively.Join me as we navigate these transformative concepts together, seeking paths to ensure that we—ministry leaders—can nurture our spiritual and emotional health while passionately serving others in new ways.

Support the Show.

🦀 🦀 🦀

Find regular support on my Facebook group by clicking HERE.Connect with me about COACHING and Workshops on self-care HERE.

TranscriptMargie: 0:01

Hey there, it's Margie Bryce, your host of the Crabby Pastor podcast, where we talk about all things sustainability, whether it's sustainability in ministry, in your personal life and we acknowledge that the church is in a transitional time, so we hit topics there too that are going to stretch your mind and the way you lead, especially how you lead yourself, so that you don't become the crabby pastor. Hey there, podcast friends, it's Margie Bryce, host of the Crabby Pastor podcast, and I have an announcement to make, two things actually. The first is that I am going to be taking my own advice and I will be doing some sabbatical time in June and July of this year, but I'm not going to leave you with nothing. I am going to serve up to you my collection of Back From Burnout stories from ministry leaders who are telling the truth about their trek back from burnout. It's always something that we can learn from listening to other people's situations and stories and maybe prevent our own burnout episodes from even happening by doing the self-care that we need to do. So I will serve those up to you, but I will be back revived and ready to serve Margie Bryce here, and I wanted to bring up the topic today to you about calling.

Margie: 1:59

What is your calling? You know we say this as ministry leaders. I being called to leadership within the institutional church and if you will just bear with me on the title institutional church I'm thinking more of the formal church structure, talking about an individual congregation, or you're talking about something more formal and larger, like a denominational structure. So I want to bet about calling with you today, and some of what's been on my heart has more to do with some foundational reasons, one in particular about why I even do this podcast, and that is that the church is in a transitional time, and I'm kind of hearing a few of you might say well, no duh, transitional with a capital T, it's being changed a bit Now. Some of you might say that that has a lot to do with COVID, and that is one reason. Although many churches were challenged and struggling even prior to COVID, to COVID, one of my key foundational reasons for doing this podcast is there's a transitional period going on and if we want to hear the new things that God is asking us to do, we're not going to be able to be running on the hamster wheel and think that we're going to hear it, which is why I advocate heavily for self-care. You know whether it is spiritual self-care, physical, mental, emotional. You know the whole gamut in a very holistic way. I see this as a form of stewardship with the bodies that God has given us to trot around on planet earth with.

Margie: 4:13

So if you add some of these things together, you know, in a transitional period like we're in, what it might look like is ministries arising from within an institutional setting and again that just kind of means more organized and formal, with structures like a governance, how you handle your money, policies probably have a human resources, people in there, as well as trustees and the whole gamut, the whole thing that guides your administrative function. And, as many people know, you can't just have an administrative function if that's all you're doing. If you're doing Sunday morning and you're doing, you know, your whatever you want to call them committee or group meetings, and that's the extent of what you're doing as a church. You can look on any church timeline graph and see that you're toddling your way towards a demise. That mission and vision do indeed need to be functional. So I would say to you that every church group would need to have some kind of missional ministry to bless their community and that's going to be a function of your community. It's going to be a function of the passion, of your leadership, and somewhere you are going to intersect with the needs of your community and how you want to go about serving, based on the spiritual gifts in your congregation. So you can see from that that two churches might live in the same community but serve in different means.

Margie: 6:04

So, going back to calling though, because that's kind of the essence of what I wanted to chat about, you know, if you're looking at church in a transitional time, a time when you need to slow down so that you can hear the new things that God is asking of you as an individual believer of Jesus Christ, then you're looking at ministries that might arise from within a traditional institutional church setting. You might also have ministries that arise connected to, but not necessarily under the auspices of, a traditional setting, and then you're also looking at ministries that might evolve independent of a traditional institutional setting. Okay, so bear with me on this. Go with me on this train, a little bit of a train ride here. This. Go with me on this train, a little bit of a train ride here. So, if you're going to have some of these newer ministries spring up. Maybe and maybe not connected to the institutional setting, you're going to have people who are called and feel passionate about whatever thing that God has put on their heart, and that is one of the things that I think we're going to start to see, because if you add in COVID which you know, we're all tired, I get it of adding COVID in in any way, shape or form.

Margie: 7:37

However, even in this post-COVID era, we are dealing with the effects, not just the trauma in the lives of all the people, but also that many churches are down maybe half of what they were prior to COVID, and this has impact. It impacts your budget, how the church spends its money. In some cases, staff has had to be let go. So you have a lot of ministry leaders, and some of whom have you just flat out pooped out and burnt out, fried out. However, you want to say that and just totally said I can't do this anymore, whether it's within the time frame of COVID or shortly after. Or maybe you were one of the ones who were let go because your church no longer could afford to pay you or have you on staff in that way. So what we're looking at is a group of ministry leaders who may not be serving in the institutional setting.Margie: 8:49

And you know, did any of this catch God by surprise? No, and you know, I have to tell you, I'm right there with you when someone says, oh, nothing comes to you that didn't get sifted through the hands of God first. You know, depending on what that is and depending on how painful that is, you know, and even if somebody wants to toss Romans 8, 28 at you, there's just, there's a day that somebody should not do that, because you're in a little bit too much pain and you're trying to wrangle with yourself, wrangle with God through it. So I don't want to make light of anything like that. However, there is going to be a core of people who are without ministry work and maybe it's just like fine, fine, I'd rather go be a greeter at the Walmart anyways, you know, because you leave there and there's nothing else pressing on you to do, and maybe you need to do that for a time. But what I'm going to say to you is, I believe that the spirit is going to blow and there is going to arise an entrepreneurial spirit for new ways to reach people for Jesus Christ that may be apart from independent of the institutional structure or maybe, if your institutional structure can handle it, it might be from within the structure itself.

Margie: 10:23

All of us are called. I remember when I felt called to ministry and people would talk about it like that was something that happens to you but maybe not to me, which is incorrect if you buy into the priesthood of all believers notion that we are all called. And I believe that today, all of us, if we follow Jesus, we are all called. And I believe that today, all of us, if we follow Jesus, we are all called. Now, the place that you serve well, that could be up for grabs. Where is it that I am to serve?

Margie: 11:00

And I would say to you that that's going to be according to the gifts that God has given to you, going to be according to the gifts that God has given to you. So in some cases and I think I said this from the pulpit before that the only reason that I'm standing on the platform delivering a sermon is because God has gifted and equipped me for that. Because, as I also frequently said, usually the people that are delivering the sermons are the ones that have encountered trauma and trial and seen God's rescue. And so we have, while we have probably some of the bigger dings spiritually or emotionally or whatever that God has worked us through we still are those people who want to draw others to Christ because of the Christ that we have experienced. So all of us are going to be placed according to our gifts.

Margie: 11:58

Maybe that's leadership, maybe that's not, but maybe you have an entrepreneurial bent where you can envision and I guess that is also visionary where you can see a need for something that doesn't exist yet and God is calling you to arise and meet that need. So that is, I think, a distinct type of calling for today, and we used to just relegate that to church planters. Today you might see it arise in some marketplace, meaning regular old job businesses where the owners are Christians and adhere to a set of Christian principles and values, are Christians and adhere to a set of Christian principles and values. You know, and depending on what kind of business it is, they might or they might not explicitly be evangelistic in their effort. It just depends and it depends on what God is asking you to do.

Margie: 13:07

So what I'm saying here is, while the formula to get a call and to then become a pastor or a missionary even, we need to expand our thinking about that. We need to drastically expand our capacity to allow the Holy Spirit to really work on us and allow us to step into whatever it is that God is placing on your heart. And I have to say today that many women especially have and I don't know, this might be a boomer thing and if you say it like my millennial son says it, there's a little bit of disparaging with that word boomer those boomers where a lot of women would sit on the sidelines kind of and wait to get asked to dance, if you know what I mean. Some of it might have been how women go at our employment, where we would wait for someone else to initiate something before. The only person really that you should be waiting to initiate is God and the Holy Spirit, you know. And then you respond that way. But I've seen a lot of women that have been associates and they just don't go and ask to preach ever, whereas you know the guys would be all about that. When do I get to preach? When do I get to preach?Margie: 14:41

So I guess I bring that illustration up to you to say the time is now illustration. Up to you to say the time is now, stop waiting on the sidelines for someone to ask you to do something. If God has put something on your heart and on your mind, you know you need to step into it. And here's the thing. This is a test, really. If you start putting your foot in the land, as they say, and the doors start popping open here and there, and here and there, and here and there, well, there you go. Even if just one door opens, there you go. You get a sense of God's not going to hold the door open for you for you know five years and stand there patiently and waiting for you to you know, hey, you get over here. I think there are times that God wants to see our initiative and do you really believe me? And so take a step of faith towards something, towards whatever God is bringing to you, towards whatever God is bringing to you. So I think the main piece that I want to really really drive home is that we're all called and we need to broaden our thinking of what that calling is going to look like.

Margie: 16:05

Not everybody is cut out to do pastoral ministry in the way that it has been done forever. We may be stepping out of the professional pastor model and into something else where maybe I know there's plenty of pastors doing bivocational, where you are working in the in the traditional marketplace, the regular old job place, but then on the weekends you serve a congregation, or through the week, because it doesn't always have to be the same way. You know, maybe it's not even on a Sunday. Sunday maybe you do church with your people on Wednesday. The important thing in that case is that you're doing what God asks you to do, and maybe it doesn't look exactly the same.

Margie: 17:00

So I want us to broaden our perspective of what it means to be called, because the bottom line of it is, at the end of the day, can you ask yourself have I been faithful and obedient with everything God has asked of me, yes or no? And if it's no, you know you're one good repentance prayer away from getting back on track. But I want us to grab hold of, especially in this transitional era, this concept that calling means being faithful with whatever God has asked you to do. Now I know that there are churches that really press this, and right now I'm blessed to be a part of a congregation that does do this, where you know you, you can take some time to explore and think through. I don't think they call it calling per se because for some reason and in some people's hearts and minds, that still means you know you have to be the pastor up on the stage. You know if you were to say anything more they might go off running into the night. No, no, no.

Margie: 18:11

But essentially, essentially, your calling is about being faithful and obedient with what God has for you, in accordance with the passion that just ignites in your heart and you know you need to address this and do something about this and the spiritual gifts that God has given to you and maybe the needs of the community, the needs that you see around you, those kind of things can come together, meld and mix in your heart and there you go. You're like well, I think God wants me to what God wants me to help students read, tutor. You know that's a calling. It really is a calling. A calling is being faithful and obedient with the gifts and the abilities according to the passion and the need you see around you. It does not always, always have to be. I'm going to go be a pastor, so I just wanted to leave that thought with you.

Margie: 19:22

Maybe this is a podcast you want to share with someone, just to encourage them, because you can kind of see they're itchy a little bit and they know they need to do something and they're still debating about all of that. So this would be your moment to encourage them that God is busy doing a new thing and that being called by Jesus might look differently, and you know what. That's okay. Not only that, but it could be the biggest and best adventure. Not that there won't be challenges, but it could be the biggest and best adventure that you could go on with Jesus.

Margie: 20:12

I also want to mention that I am always on the hunt for back from burnout stories and if you or someone you know has survived burnout and come back, or maybe even stepped back still to take, you know, to come up for air for a minute and put yourself back together, I would love, love, love to hear their stories. If they'd be willing to share. You can email me at crabby pastor at gmail dot com, whether it's for yourself or someone you know, and we'd be happy to have you on the podcast. So, and while I'm at it here, if you ever have questions or comments or there's a topic about self-care or something that is just on your heart and you'd like me to dig at it and explore a bit again. Email me at crabbypastor at gmail dot com and I would be glad to connect and explore and see what I can find out to be of help, because I exist to support you in whatever kind of ministry God has called you to. So how do the pieces of your life fit together? Do they fit together well and things are humming along just fine, or are there some pieces that are tight or absent or just not fitting the bill?

Margie: 21:47

This is your invitation to join me in my glass workshop for a video series, where I am going to do a stained glass project while I talk to you about sustainability and building sustainability into your heart and into your life. So I am going to be doing my art, which is a form of self-care, and I'm going to invite you into that space with me and I'm going to chat. I'm going to chat about self-care and I'm going to show you how I create, and there's a nifty, nifty analogy. Stained glass seems to be a very good metaphor for what I want to talk about. So I'd love for you to join me To do that. To opt in, I'll need you to email me at crabbypastor at gmailcom. That's crabbypastor at gmailcom, so you won't want to miss this. You definitely won't want to miss this, so make a plan to join me in the glass workshop.

Margie: 22:57

Are you wondering whether your fatigue, your lack of motivation, your lack of interest is burnout maybe? I just wanted to let you know that I have a resource on the website, margiebryce dot come com, that's B-R-Y-C-E margie bryce dot com and it is a burnout questionnaire, free for you to download and kind of self assess and get a sense of where you're at. There are questions that not only ask about what you're going through but maybe how often you're experiencing it. And that's kind of a key to where you might be, because you have to know where you are in order to chart a course forward. And most pastors who experience pastors and ministry leaders who experience burnout rarely know that that's where they're at until they're well into it. And if you're unsure about that little statistic, so far, everybody that I've interviewed on this podcast who has experienced burnout, when I ask that kind of question, they're like, yeah, I didn't know, that's where I was at. So again, go to MargieBricecom it's on the homepage of the website and you can get your burnout questionnaire and kind of see where you're at. Burnout questionnaire and kind of see where you're at.Margie: 24:42

Hey, friends, the Crabby Pastor podcast is sponsored by Bryce Art Glass and you can find that on Facebook.

Margie: 24:45

I make stained glass as part of my self-care and also by Bryce Coaching, where I coach ministry leaders and business leaders, and so the funds that I generate from coaching and from making stained glass is what is supporting this podcast and I will have opportunities for you to be a part of sponsoring me and, as always, you can buy me a cup of coffee thing in the show notes. But I will have some other ways that you can be a part of getting the word out about the importance of healthy self-care for ministry leaders. Hey, thanks for listening. It is my deep desire and passion to champion issues of sustainability in ministry and for your life, so I'm here to help. I stepped back from pastoral ministry and I feel called to help ministry leaders create and cultivate sustainability in their lives so that they can go the distance with God and whatever plans that God has for you. I would love to help, I would consider it an honor and, in all things, make sure you connect to these sustainability practices, you know, so that you don't become the Crabby Pastor.

View Details

Humility: once you think you have it, you actually don't. That's the challenge of this basic Christian virtue. Today's conversation is with Dr. Dennis Edwards, the brilliant mind behind the book Humility Illuminated: the biblical path back to Christian character, to help us tackle this complex virtue.As your host, Margie Bryce, I get personal about my own experiences leading with humility. It's a journey sprinkled with trials and victories, from the difficulties of relying on the generosity of others to the constant comparisons with larger ministries that can cloud our perspective. Dr. Edwards and I shed light on the importance of being a welcoming community leader, one who listens earnestly and serves with the resources at hand. Our conversation journeys into the heart of humility in community service, valuing collaboration over competition and celebrating the unique gifts each congregation brings to the table.CLICK HERE FOR THE BOOK ON HUMILITY.

Support the Show.

🦀 🦀 🦀

Find regular support on my Facebook group by clicking HERE.Connect with me about COACHING and Workshops on self-care HERE.

TranscriptMargie: 0:01

Hey there, it's Margie Bryce, your host of the Crabby Pastor podcast, where we talk about all things sustainabile whether it's sustainability in ministry, in your personal life and we acknowledge that the church is in a transitional time, so we hit topics there too that are going to stretch your mind and the way you lead, especially how you lead yourself, so that you don't become the crabby pastor. Hey there, podcast friends, it's Margie Bryce, host of the Crabby Pastor podcast, and I have an announcement to make, two things actually. The first is that I am going to be taking my own advice and I will be doing some sabbatical time in June and July of this year, but I'm not going to leave you with nothing. I am going to serve up to you my collection of Back From Burnout stories from ministry leaders who are telling the truth about their trek back from burnout. It's always something that we can learn from listening to other people's situations and stories and maybe prevent our own burnout episodes from even happening by doing the self-care that we need to do. So I will serve those up to you, but I will be back revived and ready to serve Margie Bryce here, host of the Krabby Pastor podcast, and we're going to talk today about humility, and you know that's it's almost like nailing jello to the tree, you know, because the minute that you think you have it you don't, and I find that a real challenge.

Margie:

1:59But it is something I think that is critical to the life of ministry leaders. And so InterVarsity Press passed along a book to me called Humility Illuminated, and here's the part that really got to me was the subtitle the Biblical Path Back to Christian Character. Gee, okay. So I have the author here, dr Dennis Edwards, and we're going to talk humility, what it is, what it isn't, and the path towards it. So, dr Edwards, if you would mind, just tell us a bit about yourself so we know we have a context to work with here.

Dr. Dennis Edwards:

2:44Sure Well, Margie, I am really grateful to be having this conversation with you. Thank you, yeah, I'm Dennis Edwards. I'm the Dean of North Park Theological Seminary. I've been here for several years but my training has been in biblical studies. So I was previously the associate and associate professor of New Testament here at North Park. But I've taught adjunct in many places for over 25 years or so. But I've also been a pastor. I've been a pastor in major cities. I grew up in New York, so I've been a pastor in New York, Washington DC, Minneapolis and then a full-time instructor here in Chicago.

Dr. Dennis Edwards:

3:22And this topic of humility has been something I've thought about and wrestled with for many years because I don't think I was given a clear definition of what it is. So I was. You know, you're left to fill it in somewhat culturally or maybe just make assumptions as to what humility is. And then, with some conversation with folks at InterVarsity Press, I realized, oh, this is a chance to dive into this topic in a more academic way. So I try to bring my academic training in there as a biblical exegete and also my pastoral experience in there, because I do weave in a bunch of stories and church situations in the book.

Margie:

4:03Yes, you do, and I liked in the book you talked about the Trinity being sports and entertainment, and this is the Trinity of our culture and the overly competitive nature of how we like to compare ourselves and we'll all say, well, we're not supposed to do that, we're not, but we do it to be, honest. You know, let's just be real. I'd like to be honest if I can help it right, and so that's hard to not give into that. Even as ministry leaders, we need to be walking a different kind of walk.

Dr. Dennis Edwards:

4:46I think so. I mean, I have been in this journey for a while and many of the conferences or resources sometimes written, sometimes spoken, sometimes in group settings geared to us pastors, was almost about just how to make sure your church grows big, because big, of course, is the assumption, is it's better.

Dr. Dennis Edwards:

5:06And a very American way of thinking about things. Well, maybe more specifically thinking about success is that it has to be big and have a lot of numbers to it, when, frankly, we can measure success in different ways in faithfulness and transform lives, ways in faithfulness and transformed lives so many other ways. But I do think we get caught up in a cycle of how can I prove my worth? Well, my worth will be proven if I can get a really big crowd, or if I can get a lot of money, or if I can build a bigger building, those kinds of things. And I feel like, while those things are not evil, I'm not arguing that. I am saying that there's something behind that that's different than what might be the real driver of ministry, which is to be like Jesus and to help other people be like Jesus.

Margie:

5:54Right, right, and you capture that well in the book and it is an academic read, but I would say it's an easy academic read, not saying that there's no, I'm not saying that it is shallow in any way, shape or form. I mean humility is a pretty, but it is. It's a good read. So I appreciated that, Although I like the academic kind of thing. Oh, good Thanks.

Dr. Dennis Edwards:

6:21Yeah, well, I did want to. I did want people to see that, while I'm not a sociologist, I'm not trying to make a case by a field that I, that I don't know and haven't studied. My lane is biblical studies and pastoral ministry, so I tried to stay in my lane, but at the same time, I didn't want it to be a super technical book that no one would pick up or only a few interested geeks and nerds would pick up, you know? Yeah, I wanted regular folks to read it and be encouraged by it.

Margie:

6:53Yeah, yeah. So what would you say then, ministry leaders of today and I say ministry leaders instead of pastors because I think I have more than pastors, and I also have some of the people who are entrepreneurial in spirit, listening that kind of, and caregivers actually in this podcast, because we all don't do self-care very well. But I think if you walk the path of humility, it's difficult to run on the hamster wheel at the same time.

Dr. Dennis Edwards:

7:30Oh my, well said that's, that's, that's good. I hope people catch capture that I might have to come back to that expression because I do like the metaphors of walking and running and and I do like also that humility. I consider it a journey, I consider it's a way of being. I think of humility. I consider it a journey, I consider it's a way of being. I think of humility not in an episodic way, although some people think that, like right now I better be humble, now, or right now I better be more assertive. No, I think of humility as an overall kind of character trait.

Dr. Dennis Edwards:

7:58I mean it's a virtue that we lean into. It's like love. Like when should I say I'm never going to be loving? I want to love all the time and I want to be humble all the time. And I think that journey does require a few things of us.

Dr. Dennis Edwards:

8:11I define humility as a posture of submission to God. So I see that as, first of all, the thing that draws me to what humility is. It's how I yield to God, how I submit to God, how I relate to God. In the Old Testament you'll see humility often in parallel with the phrase fear of God. So this reverence for God is seen as one way to express humility. It's a deep reverence for God. So I start there.

Dr. Dennis Edwards:

8:39I don't start with a psychological analysis. My biblical analysis says I start with a posture of submission to God, but that posture of submission plays itself out in a behavior and an attitude and even actions of peacemaking and reconciliation, so that I become an agent for God's good by submitting to God. Now, peacemaking and reconciling doesn't mean I don't tell the truth and doesn't mean that some people won't be irritated by my presence or by my words. So the goal of humility is not just to make everybody feel nice or just to be a nice person that nobody you know can find fault in. It's really to be an honest, truthful person, honest with God, honest with others. And I would add, there's an advocacy for those who are most likely to be left out and marginalized and minimized. All of that I see from scripture and from the way of Jesus.

Margie:

9:35Yeah, Absolutely, Absolutely. And yeah, as I'm reading the book, I'm going through it and going man, I'm just not very humble the book, I'm going through it and going, man, I'm just not very humble.

Dr. Dennis Edwards:

9:48Well, I hope I didn't write. I hope people don't come away only critical of themselves.

Margie:

9:51Well, you know, and then I think that's my predisposition anyway, but when you, I would say that, at the end of the day, if you can reflect back on the day that you just lived and say I was faithful and obedient to what God asked of me, today, that that's a really great marker.

Dr. Dennis Edwards:

10:13Oh, amen, amen. And that to me, is the sign of humility. It's a sense of wanting God to be pleased with you, with your life and the way that you carry yourself, and not have to justify everything you've done, even the wrong things you've done, but to try to be confident in that. That's a lifelong journey. I don't mean to say it's an easy thing or even a one-time thing. It's a part of our journey. But when I look at the way of humility, the way it's described in scripture, the way I see it in Jesus, the way I see it in other people in the scriptures, it's a way that does grow. As we grow right, as we move along in life, we can get better at being more faithful. We can be more consistent. Perhaps is a good way to think of it.

Margie:

10:59What would you say would be the key issues that? Would be most helpful to those who are serving in ministry at this particular time, which is you know, now we're kind of post-COVID but, churches have been hit. You know they're down. Maybe they're half of what they were before. Yeah, and pastors are, and ministry leaders are trying to regain traction and some places are doing better than others and you can't help. But look, I mean, the average size of churches might be around 75-ish.

Dr. Dennis Edwards:

11:42Well, I, well I can answer that question from my own personal perspective. There's a lot in there, because I don't want to be casual or flippant about people, because this was me trying to make a living doing what you felt God has called you to do, and struggling to make that living because we do live off of the discretionary income of people. I mean, we live off of whatever people decide to put into an offering plate, and that's very challenging. I'm not going to lie, but having been a church planter and a pastor of small churches and then larger churches in my years of ministry you know, in small churches I was always hustling, working two jobs. You know that kind of stuff, so I understand some of that anyway. So in my answer, I just want people to know I'm not coming from this as some ivory tower and say, well, you just ought to do A, b and C and everything will work out fine. I understand that tension that you just brought up. I understand some of these challenges.

Dr. Dennis Edwards:

12:40Humility still means, though, rather than comparing myself to the big ministry down the street or even to what used to be, I'm running. I'm the dean of a seminary here where people will always remember the glory days of when we were bigger and all those things, and I can't live back there. I have to live in a place that says what's my duty right now in my walk with God and my loving mercy, and doing justice and walking humbly with God. That's what I have to do now and that's my task. God is gracious and will supply what I need, but I do encourage people to walk in that journey of faithfulness and try their best to not rank what they're doing against someone else. It really isn't a competition against others. It's a question of running a race, but it's a race of consistency. It's a race where the Lord gives us a crown at the end for finishing.

Margie:

13:42Right and it's not based on what is it? They say lots and bucks.

Dr. Dennis Edwards:

13:47That's right.

Margie:

13:48Yes, the money and the people I mean. You want to be faithful and obedient with what God has provided you with.

Dr. Dennis Edwards:

13:57That's right. That's right. I mean one of the themes that I say in the book that kind of carries itself out you see it in the Old Testament, you see it in the in the Apocrypha, you see it it in the New Testament and you see it later even in the Apostolic Fathers is God is against or anti or opposes, in some translations, the proud but shows favor to the humble. So there's this sense that you know I don't want to be in a place where God is anti-me. You know I don't want to be in a place where God opposes me.Dr. Dennis Edwards:

14:26Pride is and I didn't write a book to try to analyze all of what pride is, but just to put it out there. I think many of us could recognize pride, but there is a temptation to this self-inflation, because that's the way our society operates, that's how we get recognized in our world. And yet the Lord says just the opposite, that even though we might not see it all in our lifetime, god is really in opposition to that kind of attitude but shows favor on the humble and says even in 1 Peter well, therefore, humble yourself under God's hand and in due time he lifts you up. So God does the blessing in all of that and I don't have to force it.

Dr. Dennis Edwards:

15:05Right Right force it Right, right, At the same time, you know ministry leaders wrangle with.

Margie:

15:14What does success look like? You know you mentioned about, you know, churches that okay, they're half of what they were. That means the giving has probably taken a hit. This means that and I always used to call it OPM other people's money.

Dr. Dennis Edwards:

15:28Yes, right, right.

Margie:

15:30You know you have to be careful with other people's money.Dr. Dennis Edwards:

15:32That's amen. I hope people are.Margie:

15:34You do. You have to be faithful and obedient with that as well.Dr. Dennis Edwards:

15:37That's right, that's right.

Margie:

15:39But so you did talk, though, about humility as being a blessing to other people, not just existing for yourself, and I think that ties to a better picture of success.

Dr. Dennis Edwards:

15:52Yes, Thank you. I mean one of the things that we give to others or we offer to others is ourselves as people in ministry, and we know that runs carries a risk. Some people might take advantage of us when we offer ourselves, we're open, we're vulnerable, we're honest and we're hospitable. I mean all those things we try to be and some people might take advantage. I'm not saying that there are no guidelines of wisdom of how to have some boundaries with that, but I am saying that a welcoming posture, one that listens, one that receives, that goes a long way. I mean, one of the things that leaders can help people do is help them to feel seen and feel heard and feel like they belong, Because many times people leave churches because all the programming was actually pretty cool, they liked it at first, Everything was good, but then after a while they realized well, nobody seems to care that I'm here, and I have seen people leave churches where they felt like, well, I just didn't fit in.

Dr. Dennis Edwards:

16:49Nobody seemed to notice me or befriend me in any real way, substantive way. So one of the gifts we give in humility is the gift of listening and receiving others, even though that is a kind of a work for some Others have to work at it more because they're not naturally inclined to be like that, but I think that's a gift that humility gives.

Margie:

17:11What would you say is a way or some steps towards attaining it? I almost feel like that's oxymoronish to say attain humility. Is it what I mean?

Dr. Dennis Edwards:

17:25I do. I was, I was fishing for the right words as I was writing the book, because I don't think we ever get there. But that's why I kind of called it a trajectory and a movement and all that. So I say I pursue it. You know those kinds of things. But but yeah, I mean some of the hows. You know I that the hows are difficult because they're contextual.

Dr. Dennis Edwards:

17:44Look, some people brought up being say polite, right, I ministered in the Midwest for a lot of years and there's a certain built-in politeness that people have. They don't want to take the last cookie, they don't want to take the last thing on the plate, so they'll cut it in half or something. I've seen that. So for some people humility is culturally defined, right, it's that kind of social lubrication that we have so that people get along with each other. But I'm asking for something a little bit more than that.

Dr. Dennis Edwards:

18:12So the how-tos would be like relate to?

Dr. Dennis Edwards:

18:16Well, the how-tos relate to my posture before God, as I mentioned earlier. So if I can cultivate a growing relationship with God, that helps me to know that I have worth before God, but I don't have to pretend to be more than I'm not, which is where the pride part comes in, or vainglory, as the old King James says. So my cultivating that relationship with God gets that. And then practicing my good listening skills, reflective listening, all the things that would allow me to receive from others, rather than being the one that always is giving and showing everybody else what to do. So I guess what I'm saying is it's, rather than picking one or two things, there really is a posture of being willing to not always be the first one or the only one, or the best one or the. You know, I have to mark everything as being the person in charge, but I'm willing to receive, and that's, yeah, that's hard for some people, I know, but I think that that's what's borne out in the life of Jesus and in many scripture passages.

Margie:

19:20Sure, sure, and it's hard for the people that are up front dispensing the wisdom and, at the same time, at the same time, like who wants to volunteer to be a doormat.

Dr. Dennis Edwards:

19:35Right, nobody wants to volunteer to be a doormat, and I argue that humility isn't that Humility would be wondering why our society allows people to be doormats. So true humility wouldn't be worrying about being a doormat. It'd be looking out that somebody else isn't going to be a doormat because I think I see humility as that kind of virtue that is so attuned to others.

Dr. Dennis Edwards:

19:58I mean that's the way of Jesus, right? So Jesus is up front in his context. He's out there, speaking, has eyes on him in the various villages where he's going around teaching and preaching and healing, and there's a lot of attention. Yet in Matthew's gospel he'll say so it's all over the place. But one key place is Matthew 11, where he says look, all of you who are burdened, heavy laden, weighed down. He says look, come to me, I'll give you rest. He says my yoke is easy, my burden is light. He says, but come to me because I'm gentle. He says my yoke is easy, my burden is light, he says but come to me because I'm gentle, he says, and humble of heart. So here's this upfront person who we look to and adore and worship, who describes himself as humble and lowly in heart or gentle. So I think there is something to be said for the leader, recognizing that a posture of gentleness and humility is not counter leadership, it's part of leadership, right, right.

Margie:

20:59And I know in the culture right now, it is a highly competitive culture. Everybody's always assessing and posturing themselves, and then when there's competition like that, there are winners and there are losers, and everybody likes to win, everybody likes to be right, which?

Dr. Dennis Edwards:

21:13is kind of hard.

Margie:

21:14If you think about it. Everybody can't be right all at the same time. I don't know but but who likes to be not right, you know Right? Well, certainly, certainly don't have to right.

Dr. Dennis Edwards:

21:24I don't. I don't like being wrong, right? Well, certainly certainly don't have to Right. I don't. I don't like being wrong, but at the same time, I don't. I it's taken me a while to say this, but I don't always have to win either. So I have been in situations where I've been misunderstood for sure. So I've tried to make my case and I've tried to explain that that's fine. I mean, I think that that's part of life. But if I don't win somebody over and I see this on the internet all the time, especially on Twitter or X is that people will argue back and forth, and I think really, what is the point here?

Dr. Dennis Edwards:

21:57That I mean I'm not going to win this person over by fussing with them on social media, but people will do it all the time. So for me that humility says I can just back out of that. I don't have to be drawn into every fight that you might think I have to fight.

Margie:

22:12That's different. Yes, oh, I think it's the way of Jesus, right.

Dr. Dennis Edwards:

22:19I think the way of Jesus is different and you know so I argue in the book that that difference was characteristic of the earliest believers.

Dr. Dennis Edwards:

22:28They were known for something that was not well-known or well-respected in the Greco-Roman world, which is humility. Even the language of humility was not used in a positive way. So, yes, it's not going to look like the rest of the world, it's going to look different. But that's my point is that Christianity seems to be on a trajectory right now, at least in some circles, to try to look very American, maybe with the hopes of fitting in better or controlling certain aspects of our culture, when I think it's just the opposite. I think that Christianity has to look so different in some ways it's contextualized for sure I'm not saying odd all the time, but different enough that it would say wait, these folks operate in a different way. They have a different sense of love, different sense of respect, different sense of caring, and humility drives that so that there becomes something unusually attractive about us, rather than us winning arguments on the internet. We actually love people enough that we listen and we care and we serve, and I think that's just the way our early forebearers carried out their faith.

Margie:

23:31Yeah, for sure, for sure. And I think what's interesting is you're speaking about that because I coach ministry leaders and I end up doing a lot of that listening, listening very intently to what they're saying. I mean, it's great training for that and I'm not by any means saying that I'm the most humble person I know, because I wouldn't say that but it does force you into a different posture where you are listening intensely and you are trying to walk in their world for a moment and questions that are going to benefit them.

Dr. Dennis Edwards:

24:07Thank you, that's wonderful.

Margie:

24:09Not yourself Helping them think a little more broadly? Maybe there's stuff you need to help them think more broadly.

Dr. Dennis Edwards:

24:18To me that's a perfect picture of humility, the way you just described it You're serving and you're not trying to be served, which is the way Jesus did. That's awesome.

Margie:

24:29Sure, I mean, and that is you know. I would say then that each individual church needs to find their specific niche for how they're supposed to bless their community. If every community of faith had one way of serving their community. I just think that would be a different picture.

Dr. Dennis Edwards:

24:52Oh my goodness, I think that's such wisdom in there, especially since there's so many churches. We don't all have to reproduce what others are doing, but we can find ways to love and serve our community. That was hard for me as a pastor, because people will come with different ideas and they often will come with ideas from their old church and they think you should do that in this church and all of that. But maybe humility would allow us to have good conversations with each other and discern together what is it that we can do as a community that serves our neighborhood and doesn't necessarily have to make us compare us to the church down the street or something you know.

Margie:

25:28I like that and at the very least and this is some of the I've worked in some revitalization kind of areas but you could have two churches in the same community and the community might have similar values needs but, each congregation is going to have a different gift mix.

Dr. Dennis Edwards:

25:46Yes, that's right, that's right.

Margie:

25:47So then, the way that your community serves as a function of the needs of your community, the gift mix that is in your congregation and then maybe what the passion is on the hearts of the leaders there. So, you get two churches serving very differently. Yeah, wow.

Dr. Dennis Edwards:

26:07I like that and you know, and you just made me think too what, what, what, what could happen if those people from both those churches spoke with each other about how their two congregations were going to serve the community and to make sure that they're not sort of stepping on each other's toes or competing with each other. I have been. When I was serving in churches not every place I served were there groups of pastors that got together to talk about their communities. When I was in DC, that did happen and I was grateful that there was a group of pastors. We thought about our neighborhood. We thought about we didn't see ourselves as competing with each other. We saw ourselves as all trying to serve in our way in our community, and to me, there's a humility in that.

Dr. Dennis Edwards:

26:48It's often frustrating when there's that a few churches that will stand alone like I got nothing to do with you and I don't want to talk to you folks, we're just going to do our thing over here, and I think so. So, yeah, so there's two levels of conversation. Right, there's one inside. This is how we're going to serve our community, but maybe there's conversations with other churches that says, hey, how can we together care for people in this community and maybe we're going to do it with different emphases because we have different gifts and abilities and such. I mean I hadn't thought about that until you just said it, but I have seen that happen in places.Margie:

27:19Yeah, I think that's an amazing picture as opposed to divisive attitudes, and I just think sometimes we have to even be careful about how we speak and have a little bit of humility about that, even to the point where you want to refer to people who don't know Jesus yet as the lost. Well, if they hear that this is something where we've lost touch with how it sounds outside of the bubble.

Dr. Dennis Edwards:

27:53Oh my goodness, yeah, I hear that.

Margie:

27:56Well, you're thinking oh, oh, my goodness, how would I feel? And I was somebody who came to Christ in my mid-twenties or so. I'm a little more sensitive to that kind of stuff because it took me a long time to learn what people were saying and understand in the church environment. But if you're looking at people who hear, oh my gosh, they think I'm lost. I'm not lost, you know what I'm saying.

Dr. Dennis Edwards:

28:22Oh, I definitely know what you're saying. That relates to this whole sense of how we posture ourselves with our neighbors. If we love people or if we just see them as targets and such that there is a different way that you communicate with your friends and your neighbors. And if you saw people as friends and neighbors and not just merely as targets that have to get evangelized, it might allow us to be more natural in our communication and more straightforward about how we live out this faith with people and not just refer to them or label folks or something like that.

Dr. Dennis Edwards:

28:58I've seen that. I know the Christian subculture and our language and all that kind of stuff. That happens, but it even happens with people who've been in church for a long time, with folks who haven't been in church for a long time. They might even already be in the church, yet there's still an insider, outsider kind of way of being and that hits everything the way we sing our songs, the way we set up our structures, the way we make decisions, and I'm basically asking for us to consider all of that in terms of what is it communicating to people who aren't us? What is it communicating to folks who are new? What is it communicating to people who have been on the margins of our society, I mean, all those things to me are related to a posture of humility. So, yeah, I mean you hit on something really good, even just how we refer to people.

Margie:

29:43Sure, sure. I think it is a humility issue when we see ourselves as God's special people and we are but, then we forget that it rains on the just and the unjust right From God's perspective. Everybody is God's special people right Amen and so we have to then and that's a humility issue not setting ourselves higher than we ought to and not setting ourselves too low either. But, being the right assessment before God who it is that we are and how we are to be.

Dr. Dennis Edwards:

30:17Amen, Well said. I like that. The word humility and humble they derive from a Latin word, hummus, which means earth and ground right, so there's a sense of humility being grounded. You said it well we're not too high and we don't have to debase ourselves either. We don't have to degrade ourselves. We're human beings made in the image of God, and there's something that we need to own about that, because that's real, that's healthy, that's good, but we don't need to elevate ourselves above what we are either. So I like that.

Margie:

30:51Yeah. And at the same time, it's tricky for ministry leaders, who get compliments, who get all of those accolades, to not to resist the urge, rather let's say it that way to put themselves on the pedestal that people are attempting to put you on.

Dr. Dennis Edwards:

31:11Yeah, I guess.

Dr. Dennis Edwards:

31:15I mean you said it's hard. I think so. I mean I don't want to be coy about it, but I have seen that happen. I've been in churches where the pastors are put up on pedestals and in some traditions there is a good amount of respect that goes with the position which I like. I mean it's healthy to say this person is laboring for the Lord every day and laboring to serve God's people every day. So, as the scriptures say, the worker deserves their wages and there's all respect to that position.

Dr. Dennis Edwards:

31:46But I think the I guess the question is, I don't know if it's hard when people are grateful and celebrate who you are, if you have a good assessment of yourself, because I don't know. I mean I'm struggling with that because it's I, the people who, I think, who have a hard time with compliments, have something else going on right. There's something going on inside, and so people who take those compliments so far as to think that I actually am so much better than everybody else, they've got something else going on inside. So I guess what I'm saying is maybe there's some issues that go beyond just being able to do the work that we're called to do. So I struggled with it's hard, because people will say that They'll say a kind thing to me.

Dr. Dennis Edwards:

32:31And then I've heard some other people withhold a compliment and say, well, I don't want you to get a swelled head, so I'm not going to say I don't like, why is it your job to moderate how I would receive something right, just share it. And it's my job to consider how I should take that information, that compliment or even the challenge that you've given me, the criticism that you've given me. That's on me how I receive those things and sometimes they're warranted, sometimes they're not. But I just feel it's kind of odd to say to somebody well, I better not give them a compliment because they're going to get a swelled head, like why. That says more about you, I think, than it does about the person giving the compliment it does and you know ministry is lonely at times.

Margie:

33:19Yes, and challenging to live into.

Dr. Dennis Edwards:

33:22Amen.

Margie:

33:23So you know you do want to encourage your ministry.

Dr. Dennis Edwards:

33:26That's right we want to encourage folks and I think it goes. It goes both ways, because if I'm encouraging God's, god's flock, people can encourage me. I would hope, as I'm trying to labor honestly before the Lord, you know, and uh, and that's not to say it's always going to be, you know, beautiful. I mean, it's going to be challenges of, of course, right, but I think what you just said is true If the work is hard, I don't want to make it harder by being a hard person to deal with.

Margie:

33:52Yeah, for sure, For sure. Do you have any other words of wisdom pearls that you could offer?

Dr. Dennis Edwards:

34:02I wish I had some pearls of wisdom. I'm glad you think of it like that. Well, I think the thing I was probably most concerned about as I wrote the book was for people who have had a hard life and have been on the bottom Sometimes that's been fear was to write a book about humility might be seen as oh my goodness, you're telling low people they have to go even lower, and it's not. What I'm really doing is at least what I'm trying to do is challenge the person who's enjoyed a relative amount of privilege to always have their eyes and hearts open to people who have been marginalized, and for those who have been marginalized to not crave the oppressive kind of power that operates in our society. So the challenge for them is to not go lower. I'm not asking that. The challenge is to not lust after the thing that's really unhealthy in the first place.

Margie:

34:58Yeah, that is. I think I wrote in the margins somewhere about that. I noted that and thought you know, you don't want to have, you don't want to buy into the crazy competitive stuff you really don't. But on the other hand you know you need to ambulate or just live rightly.

Dr. Dennis Edwards:

35:19Yes, right, you want to. You got to manage, manage this crazy world, but I don't want to buy into all the dysfunctions.

Margie:

35:26Sure, I know, I was at a pastor's meeting once and they start out saying you know pastors, we just all we get together and all we do is complain. But that's a little known secret Not a secret now, but anyway and I thought I was shocked by that because, again, I was, you know, in my mid-20s and I was second career to ministry when I answered my call, so I was a little older, you know, and they said let's go around and let's just say you know something positive, something that's been a blessing.

Margie:

36:08Well, we got this one person and they started talking about the so many million dollar expansion at their church. You know, and I'm like you know. I wanted to say I would have been good with you just talking about this expansion and the potential for ministry. You didn't have to put a dollar amount on it because there's so much schleps sitting here that would attain to that and why did you feel the need to?

Dr. Dennis Edwards:

36:29you know, to grandstand about that.

Dr. Dennis Edwards:

36:32I hear that. I hear what you're saying very well, and I've been many circles like that and it is grandstanding and even though we want to say it's God's blessing, there's a part that that's about Look what I did or look what my people are doing, or how great this is, and some of that really bothers me. I mean, if some of the stories were about families that had come who were really struggling and now they found a sense of community and belonging and they're diving into the life of ministry in the church, those are stories I think we would be encouraged by to hear. So you're right, there's a lot that we complain about in ministry, for sure. I mean, it's tough, it's hard, but it would be nice if we could encourage each other with some of the things that we actually honestly think are the benchmarks of ministry, which is change, lives, communities that are being restored and strengthened, families that are being restored and strengthened because the spirit of God is at work.Dr. Dennis Edwards:

37:26I want to hear those stories. I want to hear that story more than I heard that your church is building a building or you're building a building because something is happening so great and things are growing and there's a lot of energy and strength of the Spirit there. Yeah, tell that story. But I don't know. I just think with the some of the competitive way we do things, it does turn out to be we're doing better than you guys.

Margie:

37:52Just don't tell us the price tag. Okay, that's true, I don't need to know that, thanks. Well, I want to thank you for coming on the Krabby Pass. Thank you, margie, that's good. I was trying not to be too Krabby myself want to thank you for coming on the Krabby Pass.

Dr. Dennis Edwards:

38:07Thank you, Margie. That's good.

Margie:

38:09I was trying not to be too Krabby myself, but thank you, so I really appreciate that you have taken the time with us my pleasure, it was my pleasure, thank you.

Margie:

38:20Thank you very much. So how do the pieces of your life fit together? Do they fit together well and things are humming along just fine? Do they fit together well and things are humming along just fine, or are there some pieces that are tight or absent or just not fitting the bill?

Margie:

39:21This is your invitation to join me in my glass workshop for a video series, where I am going to do a stained glass project while I talk to you about sustainability and building sustainability into your heart and into your life. So I am going to be doing my art, which is a form of self-care, and I'm going to invite you into that space with me and I'm going to chat. I'm going to chat about self-care and I'm going to show you how I create, and there's a nifty, nifty analogy. Stained glass seems to be a very good metaphor for what I want to talk about. So I'd love for you to join me to do that. To opt in, I'll need you to email me at crabbypastor at gmailcom. That's crabbypastor at gmailcom. So you won't want to miss this. You definitely won't want to miss this. So make a plan to join me in the glass workshop.

Margie:

40:14In the Glass Workshop, are you wondering whether your fatigue, your lack of motivation, your lack of interest is burnout maybe. I just wanted to let you know that I have a resource on the website, margiebryce dot com that's B-R-Y-C-E MargieBryce dot com, and it is a burnout questionnaire, free for you to download, and kind of self-assess and get a sense of where you're at. There are questions that not only ask about what you're going through, but maybe how often you're experiencing it, and that's kind of a key to where you might be, because you have to know where you are in order to chart a course forward. Pastors and ministry leaders who experience burnout rarely know that that's where they're at until they're well into it. And if you're unsure about that little statistic, so far everybody that I've interviewed on this podcast who has experienced burnout, when I asked that kind of question, they're like, yeah, I didn't know that's where I was at. So again, go to margiebryce dot com it's on the home page of the website and you can get your burnout questionnaire and kind of see where you're at.

Margie:

41:55Hey, friends, the Crabby Pastor podcast is sponsored by Bryce Art Glass and you can find that on Facebook. I make stained glass as part of my self-care and also by Bryce Coaching, where I coach ministry leaders and business leaders, and so the funds that I generate from coaching and from making stained glass is what is supporting this podcast, and I will have opportunities for you to be a part of sponsoring me and, as always, you can do the buy me a cup of coffee thing in the show notes. But I will have some other ways that you can be a part of getting the word out about the importance of healthy self-care for ministry leaders. Hey, thanks for listening. It is my deep desire and passion to champion issues of sustainability in ministry and for your life, so I'm here to help.

Margie:

43:06I stepped back from pastoral ministry and I feel called to help ministry leaders create and cultivate sustainability in their lives so that they can go the distance with God and whatever plans that God has for you. I would love to help, I would consider it an honor and, in all things, make sure you connect to these sustainability practices you know so that you don't become the crabby pastor.

View Details

Are you the leader who's constantly putting out fires and juggling the demands of ministry, barely pausing to catch your breath? Join me and Josh Curtiss for an honest conversation about recognizing the tell-tale signs of burnout, the necessity of self-awareness, and the dangers of becoming that crabby pastor nobody wants to invite for coffee.

The thrill of change is undeniable, but so is its ability to drain your batteries. We're tackling the need for balance—how to embrace change without sacrificing your well-being. As Josh and I share from our experiences, we discuss the importance of time off, the pitfalls of trying to revert to 'business as usual' post-pandemic, and the rejuvenating power of rest. Support the Show.This is a GUILT-FREE zone! So here's your friendly nudge about self-care and its importance for the sake of your family, friends, and those you serve in ministry.Get your FREE Burnout Questionnaire to help you assess whether you are dealing with just general tiredness or something MORE. CLICK HERE FOR THE BURNOUT QUESTIONNAIRE.I love scouring around to find great content to share, and am always interested in feedback, if you are or know of someone willing to share their Back from Burnout story so we can all learn together, then CLICK HERE to email me.And, if this is a reminder you wish to opt out of, that's fine too.Blessings on your journey!Margie🦀 🦀 🦀Find regular support on my Facebook group by clicking HERE.Connect with me about COACHING and Workshops on self-care HERE.

TranscriptMargie: 0:01

Margie: 1:21I'm going to chat about self-care and I'm going to show you how I create, and there's a nifty, nifty analogy Stained glass seems to be a very good metaphor for what I want to talk about, so I'd love for you to join me to do that. To opt in, I'll need you to email me at crabbypastor at gmail dot t com. That's crabbypastor at gmail dot com. So you won't want to miss this. You definitely won't want to miss this. So make a plan to join me in the glass workshop.

Josh: 2:08By clicking okay.

Margie: 2:10Yeah, so it's Margie Bryce here today and I am here with Josh Curtiss and we are going to talk about burnout. I was pretty interested in what Josh has to say about witnessing burnout and what that looks like from. Everybody thinks that if they're burning out or pastors think that you know they can walk around and continue to do what they need to do, and usually they do and they pull it off pretty well. I don't think I've heard of anybody like keeling over and passing out in the pulpit because they're burnt out, but it usually happens at some later point. So I was interested in what Josh has to say and I'm going to let Josh introduce himself, tell us a bit about who he is and how he serves in ministry, and then we will talk about burnout.

Josh: 3:09All right, thank you so much for having me. It's great to talk with you and, as you said, my name's Josh. I've been either a part of ministry or in ministry my entire life, grew up as a pastor's kid and took my first ministry post right out of high school, at 18. I have worked at five different churches, three different denominations, a couple of really large churches, a couple of medium or small churches, and so I've seen burnout from a lot of different angles, not just in my life, but in people I work with or work for, or my own family for that matter. Currently, I'm an associate pastor at Ben Naz and also a leadership coach primarily works with pastors and youth pastors on things like this or any other areas that they need breakthroughs in.

Margie: 4:05So yeah, where's your, where's your church that you're serving that right now?

Josh: 4:09Bend, Oregon, central Oregon. Okay, Beautiful location.

Margie: 4:15I hear that. I hear that I have never been to that section of the country, so maybe someday soon. So anyway, I would like to hear how you came to identify burnout. See that it was burnout, and the part that kind of made the hair on the back of my neck stand up is working. For somebody who is on the verge of burnout, I thought, oh, that sounds like just yards of fun. So give us your take on that.

Josh: 4:47Generally speaking, before I get into the story that I want to share, generally speaking, I notice with pastors a couple of things when they start to burn out. Probably the biggest thing is irritability. But I've seen pastors who are great leaders and excellent at what they do completely change into a totally different kind of leader when they're burnt out, and irritability is usually kind of the first sign. But another sign is, like in vision casting. It takes a lot of energy to work with a group of people, develop a vision and a direction and then push it forward, and it seems like when people have burnout they might start that process and then restart it and restart it and restart it, because when they try to push it forward they're too tired to take it very far and so they just redo it.

Margie: 5:47That's interesting. And, first off, the first thing that you did there with what you told me was you validated the name of this podcast, right, crabby Pastor. I did have one guy come up to me at an event and say I'm never a crabby pastor and he sounded a little crabby but I thought okay, and I said to him we'll go get your spouse and bring your spouse over here and we'll talk. And he didn't come back with a spouse either. But you have kind of validated that. That's kind of where we want to, what we hope to prevent and hope that people have the humility level to, and self-awareness to, say something's not right.

Josh: 6:32Yeah, Yep, and you know, it may not just show up at work either. It might be something at home that springs up before it springs up at work that springs up before it springs up at work In my case. So the church I'm going to talk about is called Living Hope in Vancouver, Washington, and the pastor was somebody that my dad had led to Christ years earlier and had felt a call to ministry and planted the church out of the church that I grew up in and it had grown exponentially, Like at one point it was one of the top five fastest growing churches in the country. They were running six, seven, eight services a weekend. They were bringing in thousands of people and there were, you know, articles in Christian newspapers and stories and things like that all over the country about what was happening there.

Josh: 7:29When I, my story was a little different. I actually moved to Detroit, Michigan, and did ministry at a church there for six years and when I came back because my wife had gotten hired as a professor at my alma mater, we started attending Living Hope and it was exciting. It was a really extraordinary service. A lot of people were coming to Jesus. It was billed as kind of a church for people who don't like church, which is a large market for people who don't like church, which is a large market by the way, it's an exceedingly large yes.

Josh: 8:09And before you go, any further.

Margie: 8:11This is like a personal side interest here, because you know I'm north of Detroit, right? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's right, where was?

Josh: 8:20that, oh my God, clinton Township, mount Clemens area. There's a church there called Crosspoint that used to be First Baptist Church. Oh, okay, I actually designed the logo on their sign, so if you, ever drive by it.

Margie: 8:39Sorry for the detour everyone.

Josh: 8:40That's okay. It was like what.

Margie: 8:48Yeah, that's where my wife was born and raised, in Detroit, so, okay, okay, well, you're talking about living hope and I did do some pre reading on the story about some of what happened, because, you know, here out in Detroit we may or may not know that, and that's like Christianity Today picks up on it and does a, does a podcast series about your something up on it and does a podcast series about it or something. You know. This one I totally missed, but I said to you earlier this is like a Clint Eastwood movie. He did something called the Mule and you know, kind of a crazy, crazy thing.

Margie: 9:18But go ahead finish your perspective.

Josh: 9:23Yeah well, and your perspective?

Josh: 9:32Yeah well, and there was a major scandal years later, but we could start on the burnout conversation literally from day one, because I was working for a nonprofit in Portland and their youth pastor stepped down and so I was helping with the youth group. I was kind of thinking about stepping in and so we did some interviews and I ended up taking the position and I'll never forget it was December 1st my first official day on the job as a staff member, as the high school pastor. There's another guy who is the middle school and college pastor At Living Hope. At Living Hope yeah, okay.

Josh: 10:12Now, at this point the church is 2,000, 2,500 members, something like that. The youth ministry is probably 150 or 200, somewhere in that neighborhood. So the pastor's wife calls me into her office on this first day of the job and she says the other youth guy is stepping down and so we want you to take all three groups. And I'm kind of processing like services in my head and what's actually entailed and and I was like well, there's, there's two high school services and three middle school services and a college service. So so you're asking me to take over six services a week for three different age groups. And her response was actually we want you to add a discipleship service Thursday night, so that'll be seven. I probably should have quit.

Margie: 11:19That day I started.

Josh: 11:20yeah, that day yeah, because you'd be hard-pressed to find a pastor anywhere who oversees seven different services a week.

Margie: 11:28Now, how old were you at this point?

Josh: 11:302011. So I would have been early 30s.

Margie: 11:36Okay, I was going to say if you're in your 20s, you might think that's an okay idea.

Josh: 11:40Well, I mean, it was my first large church and so I had no understanding of, like, how large churches work or you know, doing events on a large scale or managing. So I was, I mean, a small church and a large church are two very different animals as far as administration church are two very different animals as far as administration and and I, I mean I was excited to learn.

Josh: 12:10But good Lord is trial by fire and and that was one of the hardest years of my life I mean it was the way they described it is. They would say, you know, people come into living hope and it's really hard for a while but then they kind of get their sea legs under them and adjust to it, which is only partly true, but it was like just a can of burnout. That first year. I mean I was at the church all the time. I was scraping by to keep up with everything they gave me. My marriage relationship suffered a lot.

Josh: 12:48I mean my wife still has some bitterness towards what happened to our relationship. I mean she remembers me coming home and just saying like I'm spent, I have nothing left to offer today, and just having that be. Day after day after day. They would come up with things like you know what, why don't we feed all the congregation hot dogs for lunch this Sunday? And Josh, why don't you cover that? And still, on top of seven services, I'd have to figure out how to make 3,000 hot dogs for the weekend service and just stuff like that all the time. I mean it was a total sellout to whatever the church wanted and they didn't pay any more. I mean they didn't pay any more. I mean they didn't pay me the guy's salary who stepped down.

Margie: 13:56And a lot of times they would kind of fill the gap with God stuff you know like well, give me an example of that.

Josh: 14:00Well, it's pretty common. You know, like I understand, that in ministry you don't get into ministry to get rich. And I understand that, like one of my professors in Bible college put it beautifully, which was that you want to work for a church that's generous.

Josh: 14:17And generous looks different for different churches, you know so if you have a church that you know brings in $100,000 a year and you're the only pastor and they give you, you know, $60,000 or $70,000, that's an okay salary, but it's very generous, you know. Whereas, if you work for a church that has a multimillion dollar budget and they give you the same salary, that may not be very generous depending on what you're doing. So, so generous in the context right, they were not. They were not very generous to a lot of their staff, mostly just their executives. But you know, churches and this is not just living hope, but churches will use God to close the gap between what they're asking and what they're paying, which is, you know, like you're doing this for God or you're doing this for you know, like he'll reward you Maybe 3,000 hot dogs for God.

Josh: 15:31And it's not untrue necessarily, but if you're using it to manipulate people and save money and you're taking a bunch of money.

Margie: 15:34That's when it becomes a problem. Yeah, yeah, okay.

Josh: 15:36And so you know it's something that a leader has to kind of search their own hearts with how they're using it, make sure they're not using it to be unfair to their staff. But it is true, you don't pay church leaders as much as you pay hospital staff or in other industries sometimes so I was well, and a lot of the staff felt like this.

Josh: 16:05I mean, things would change all the time. They change very quickly, and so we were constantly trying to keep up with the change. And that was culture-wise. It was part of the secret sauce of why we grew, because it was always so exciting and interesting and you never knew what to expect. It was also the thing that burned people out a lot, because everything was last minute, everything was urgent, everything you know. Like there was a constant. You know I'm gonna have to stay at work three more hours to keep up with this and I'm'm going to have to come in on my day off, and it just required you to keep putting more and more hours in to keep up with the last minute changes.

Josh: 16:55And so I think that's a personality driven thing. As far as if a leader wants to have an environment where they can change things quickly, I don't think that's inherently bad. I just think they need to be cognizant of how that might affect the people they work with and have some checks and balances, you know, like offering comp days or paying attention to. You know we made a lot of changes last month and where's everybody at? You know, do you need a long weekend or something like that, with your family?

Margie: 17:29Sure, and as you're talking, then I'm thinking about we are mortals, we have limitations, and one of those limitations is creativity, because that's what you're talking about is a nonstop, ongoing level of creativity, and it's for a good cause, right, you want people to be attracted. You want people, you have to attract attention. That's what Jesus did with the miracles. He attracted attention to draw the crowd to then share the gospel.

Josh: 18:01But we have finite creativity of the gospel, but we have finite creativity. Well, and there's an ironic connection there, because and this is there's a book I wanted to mention as part of this conversation. It's by Tony Schwartz and it's called the Way we're Working Isn't Working, and it's based on studies about burnout and health in the workplace. It's not a Christian book, necessarily, but one of the things they argue that I thought was so fascinating about this conversation is that energy, creativity, productivity all come from the same source inside of us. You imagine, like an energy bar that also fuels our creativity and our productivity, and I, I would add, our ability to resist temptation.

Margie: 18:58We'll say Would you say that our ability to resist temptation increases when our creativity and energy levels decrease?

Josh: 19:10No, I think it all increases when we take care of ourselves and it all decreases when we burn out. Okay, and I think I believe, from what I've seen, that there's a profound connection between burnout and, you know, scandals or indiscretion. Like, we all have unhealthy things that we turn to to deal with stress if we're not careful, and and burnout makes it so much harder to resist those unhealthy things that we turn to.

Margie: 19:44And this is a really important point, yeah, and in this time where many churches are seeking to recapture the number of people that were there before COVID, you know, and in many cases they'll try to get that group back, which I always liken to. Oh, let's go fishing in this little bucket, even though God has stocked the pond like crazy, like you said, there's more people to engage that have never been a part of a faith community, but there seems to be, in some instances, a real franticness to get back to where we were before, when in reality, you know, god may be asking us to move forward in new and different ways.

Josh: 20:30Yeah, yeah, well, and I am a huge proponent of the Sabbath. I would agree with the Ten Commandments in that regard.

Margie: 20:43Well, that's nice, that's nice of you.

Josh: 20:47I mean, it seems like it should be a given, but sometimes I wonder, because there's passages in the Bible that talk about resisting temptation, that God will always give us a way out, right, right. And sometimes I wonder, you know, if we give in to temptation and we ask God, you know what was the way out that you gave us? If he wouldn't answer the Sabbath, yeah, that would probably be a good answer.

Margie: 21:21A good answer because I would like to say you can't load your pockets with change. Of course, in the digital era that doesn't mean exactly the same thing, but it's a good picture. You can't load your pockets with change. Get on an airplane, fly to Vegas, get in the middle of the casino and say you know, lord, help me not to gamble. I mean, you've kind of set yourself up.

Josh: 21:44Yep, Well, and like we talked about, you know that obviously the scandals can really derail a ministry, but all that other stuff is connected too. I mean, it's connected as far as how you can push the vision forward. It's connected to how creative you and your staff can be. It's a lot of different ways that can go wrong, and one of the ways it can go wrong is without any scandal at all. The church can just coast you know, for years.

Josh: 22:31But in the case of Living Hope, you could see a lot of that in the staff and in the head pastor. I mean, you could see, you know he was. He was dealing with some old injuries and there were some pain pills involved and there were some other substances and things like that. And I don't I'm not like trying to get into the the weeds of it to make it a gossip thing, but but just to say like more and more and more leaning on unhealthy ways and we had no idea how bad it had gotten underneath the surface. But um you, you saw his weight increase, you saw more. It was like he would try, like he would try to take trips or try to take vacations, but it wasn't working. It was actually kind of funny because we had about 40 people on staff. Kind of funny because we had about 40 people on staff and we worked so hard when he was there that anytime he went on vacation, like nobody would show up for work. I mean, it was just a ghost town. It was the funniest thing.

Margie: 23:49That's interesting, that's interesting.

Margie: 23:52And the other thing that you said that I thought was interesting was the weight gain. You know sometimes that's food related. You know you got your stash at candy bars and you're just not eating healthy or whatever. That's one piece of it. But what I've come to understand as well is that if you're under a great deal of stress, your cortisol levels will go up and you can be dieting. You can be dieting like eating healthy, working out or whatever, and you can still gain weight if your cortisol levels are out of control well, and and I gained a lot of weight while I was there and that's one of my unhealthy go-tos, you know is like stressy and I.

Josh: 24:35You know when you're, when your schedule is overloaded, it's harder to plan for healthier meals, but it, but it goes back to your pocket full of quarters thing you know is like when, when you're on empty, you don't have the wherewithal to eat things you don't want to eat. You just it's just, you know. I mean a different way of saying that is like there's a cheeseburger sitting on your desk and you're gonna grab it, you know you just don't have, you don't have the strength to resist.

Margie: 25:09I suppose Well, maybe you don't have the resolve to really. That's just one more thing you've got to think about. Yeah eating healthy. Yep and you just don't have the reserve to even contemplate that, especially if your creativity is being sapped repeatedly.

Josh: 25:29One of our college presidents used to say that the body and the spirit are so closely connected that they get each other's diseases, and I think that health plays a big factor in it and it contributes to things like irritability and lack of creativity and mood swings and things like that.

Josh: 25:53So, and there was a lot of that on our staff. I mean there was, you know, people that were kind of living off of the extra chips after a potluck or that you're getting donuts for volunteers all the time and that ends up being your breakfast. And the other funny thing. I mean I already said it was really rough on my marriage and there was a lot of marriages that were in a tough place. Some people actually ended up divorcing while working at Living Hope and I remember one time one of the executives was talking to me and she said she said, man, it's like everybody's marriage is struggling. We need to bring in like a marriage conference or send you guys to a class or something like that. And I remember thinking like adding a class, like you know like, stop making us work 70, 80 hours a week, you know, plus, maybe that will help our marriage.

Margie: 26:58Maybe. But now let's be fair thinking about in the culture. All right, if somebody is married to somebody that is, say, going to be a physician and they're in a residency program, and that's like ultra demanding. I mean, usually those are two, three or four years commitment of you know, really intensive time commitment. How do you think the church then compares, or?

Josh: 27:27kind of that. So I have people close to me that one of them's actually in a residency for her PhD right now or her PhD right now, and I think that the difference is, especially in America, that's a pretty straightforward process. I mean, if you sign up for that, there's not a lot of wiggle room about what that's going to entail. You know between, even between, the top programs and the lower end programs of residency, like you're going to have to sell out for it. And if you get married beforehand or in the midst of it, I mean and that's maybe a different conversation about marriage coaching, but there has to be some kind of understanding that this is what we're doing In the church.

Josh: 28:23There can be some of that, possibly, but the difference is that it's not a standard, it's an individual's decision on a regular basis, and they're deciding to make this change which will cost their whole staff a number of more hours, and then just continually doing it, just continually borrowing against it and borrowing against it. Now, if you work at a, again, if you work at a hospital, depending on the type of work that you do, there can be a lot of emergencies or call-ins, or you can end up working all hours of the night. But that's not necessary and I'm obviously not a doctor, so I'm theorizing at this point. And I don't. I'm obviously not a doctor, so I'm theorizing at this point, but it's not necessarily your boss.

Margie: 29:44You know waking up and going.

Josh: 29:45I have a creative idea that I don't want a burnout doctor working on me. You know, especially if it's a serious injury, like I don't. I and I've heard of you know some hospitals looking at things like this like could actually be dangerous. Airline pilots are the same way. You know you don't want an airline pilot that hasn't slept in two days or something like that.

Josh: 30:03My neighbor's actually an airline pilot, so so I, I, I do think that you know a place for, like working hard, selling out, putting in long hours, but at the same time, especially in a church, there is like you're a shepherd of your staff, and I think that a church should be a place where you bring both together, where people work at a high level and also care for their work at a high level and also care for their families at a high level. I can't tell you, I mean this is another huge issue for me, but like I don't want my kids to hate the church and they don't have a concept of, like you know, working for God, necessarily it's basically just the church versus me, and so me as a kid.

Josh: 31:03And so, like with my son, you know I'm real careful about how I talk, about my commitment to the church and my working at the church and also talking to him about you know I was gone at a camp this weekend and so I'm going to take Monday off just to be with you and even say things. Like you know, my church is going to give me Monday off because they want me to be able to spend time with you too, because that has a huge effect on his relationship with God and his spiritual life, and that went both ways. At Living Hope, I mean, we had some great pastor's kids who had a good relationship with God, but a lot of times it was kind of in spite of the church.

Margie: 31:49Were there some staff members that were better at carving a boundary for that out? I mean, that's kind of my glimmer of hope that I see with younger clergy today is that work-life balance really matters, as opposed to the clan of the folks that you know at my end of the spectrum, that really, which I never wanted to work that way anyway personally, because I I'm crabby, this is, you know, I'm not fun to be around, you know not, not that I always am, but you know, I mean if you're, if you're taxed, you're just not.

Josh: 32:29Yeah, well, you know, the the shift is from a generation that considered work as life to a younger generation that is work as part of life.

Josh: 32:46And I mean, in many circles it's pendulum swung too far. I talk with a lot of employers that are kind of pulling their hair out with young people just trying to get them to show up, and so there is taking it too far. And I think that you know, in any job we're supposed to do it with excellence, as unto the Lord, whether you're a doctor or a pastor. But there's this weird dynamic about being a pastor. Is that there's something about your relationship with God that you feel like should be able to be mimicked right Like you're a tour guide of life with God. And if you operate in such a way where you're exhausted and it's hurting your relationship with God, and you know it, and there's like a there's that huge disconnect there, I mean you feel that you feel this like you and you might even get in a place where you're mad at God or disillusioned at God, and then you got to go up and tell people how to get close to God, and it's like.

Margie: 34:09I know well, it's a hard place. It is hard, but people have done that, you know.

Josh: 34:15Oh, I've been there. I've definitely been there. Yeah, and and I you know, back to your point about being able to say no and carve out boundaries yes, and I mean you could.

Margie: 34:27You could get fired for saying no, and part of what how could you get fired for saying you know, I mean, aren't there employment rules or and?

Josh: 34:39a little more now, but but it was part of. The thing about a church that has a lot of momentum is that there's a lot of people that want to work there.

Josh: 34:54Oh you know, naively it was always funny, because people are like, oh, I'd love to be on staff or I'd love to work, and you just be like, no, you wouldn't, you just think you would. But because of that, you know, there's a line of 10 people for every job and so if you drop the ball enough, I mean they've got plenty of people waiting for your job, which, you know, kind of enables them to lean more heavily on people. I would say that for me, I learned a lot about, you know, raising up leaders and delegating and letting things go and pushing back on my boss in ways that, and I feel like I tried to build a trust and reputation to be able to do that, especially with other staff members. I mean, like they knew that I was working hard and they would have my back.

Josh: 35:59You know, if I got in trouble about something, and you just learn to navigate it. And it was still hard. I mean, it was a lot of work till the day I left. And you just learn to navigate it. And it was still hard. I mean, it was a lot of work till the day I left, but years three and four I got much better at navigating that kind of schedule that was me learning to carve out space and mold the job into something that was a little more feasible it.

Margie: 36:38It wasn't because of their help okay well, that way you know there.

Josh: 36:41That probably was the most valuable learning well, there's a ton of things I learned that were amazing. I took a lot away from it that I still apply and you know, when there was a big scandal and he, the head pastor, ended up stepping down and his wife and a few family members that were working for the church all had to leave and you can read all about that in the article but one of the things that happened when they left is that we brought some people in to relook at HR and staff structure and scheduling. Some of the pastors that stuck around were given sabbaticals and things and some of them are still there. Know, I mean, this is, this is a dozen years ago and they're ministering strong and revitalized and they have a a much healthier staff structure now, even as a large, larger church that has a lot of ministry going on. For one of the things that was interesting to me because when I left Living Hope, I became a campus pastor for another mega church in Portland called Abundant Life and it was the load was so much more manageable than working for Living Hope and the support structure, the staff, you know, just the supports they had in place were remarkable.

Josh: 38:15But I found myself like kind of overloading myself and being back in a position of being overwhelmed in other ministry positions and kind of having this realization of like nobody's doing this to me. I'm doing this to myself. Just what? Like if those were patterns that I picked up in an unhealthy environment and then just kept them right into better environments and and impose them on myself. It's like like you can get to a place where you you don't feel comfortable and let it. I mean it's kind of an oxymoron but you don't feel comfortable. I mean it's kind of an oxymoron but you don't feel comfortable unless you're like overwhelmed and too busy or something that feels normal about it.

Margie: 39:14Yeah, some people have said that you can almost like get addicted to that.

Josh: 39:18Yes, that's a good word to use.

Margie: 39:20Yeah, you have to do that.

Josh: 39:23And I think that for me personally, the best measure of that is on a Sabbath day. I mean, if I hit Sabbath with my family and I feel guilty because I'm not doing anything and I feel like uneasy and twitchy because I don't have any product, like that to me is I'm addicted to work.

Margie: 39:45We're addicted to the chronic. I got to keep going, I got to keep going. I can't. You know, it's kind of like you're trying to juggle and not let the balls hit the ground and it just yeah.

Josh: 39:58Yep absolutely.

Margie: 39:59Well, I think too, that's a great place to stop. I want you to. Can you remind us of that book, the title?

Josh: 40:05of the book yeah, the book was the show notes. Yeah, sure, the book is the Way we're Working, isn't Working? By Tony Schwartz.

Margie: 40:17Okay, because there are some things we can indeed learn from or unlearn from some secular authors, but I want to thank you very much for coming on and for sharing, and maybe somebody will hear this and God will be speaking to them and we could have one less crabby pastor out there. I love it, which would be a great thing. So thank you so much for coming on and sharing.

Josh: 40:48Yeah, thank you for your time.

Margie: 40:51Are you wondering whether your fatigue, your lack of motivation, your lack of interest is burnout Maybe? I just wanted to let you know that I have a resource on the website, margiebricecom that's B-R-Y-C-E margiebricecom and it is a burnout questionnaire, free for you to download and kind of self-assess and get a sense of where you're at. There are questions that not only ask about what you're going through but maybe how often you're experiencing it and that's kind of a key to where you might be, because you have to know where you are in order to chart a course forward. And most pastors who experience pastors and ministry leaders who experience burnout rarely know that that's where they're at until they're well into it. And if you're unsure about that little statistic, so far, everybody that I've interviewed on this podcast who has experienced burnout, when I asked that kind of question, they're like, yeah, I didn't know, that's where I was at. So again, go to margiebricecom it's on the homepage of the website and you can get your burnout questionnaire and kind of see where you're at. Burnout questionnaire and kind of see where you're at.

Margie: 42:36Hey friends, the Krabby Pastor podcast is sponsored by Bryce Art Glass and you can find that on Facebook.

Margie: 42:39I make stained glass as part of my self-care, and also by Bryce Coaching, where I coach ministry leaders and business leaders, and so the funds that I generate from coaching and from making stained glass is what is supporting this podcast and I will have opportunities for you to be a part of sponsoring me, to be a part of sponsoring me and, as always, you can do the buy me a cup of coffee thing in the show notes.

Margie: 43:17But I will have some other ways that you can be a part of getting the word out about the importance of healthy self-care for ministry leaders. Hey, thanks for listening. It is my deep desire and passion to champion issues of sustainability in ministry and for your life, so I'm here to help. I stepped back from pastoral ministry and I feel called to help ministry leaders create and cultivate sustainability in their lives so that they can go the distance with God and whatever plans that God has for you. I would love to help, I would consider it an honor and, in all things, make sure

View Details

This episode explores the bitter truth behind sugar's sweet facade. My guest, Troy Duell, host of the podcast Frontline Health and CEO of Centurion Labs, joins me, Margie Bryce, to expose sugar's addictive grip on our brains. Yikes.The road to a healthier you is paved with sweet alternatives that don't compromise on taste. Discover the game-changing benefits of natural sweeteners that don't come packaged with other health concerns.This is sure to be a sweeet episode.Here is Troy's podcast: Frontline Health

Support the Show.

🦀 🦀 🦀

Find regular support on my Facebook group by clicking HERE.Connect with me about COACHING and Workshops on self-care HERE.

TranscriptMargie: 0:01

Hey, there it's Margie Bryce, your host of the Crabby Pastor podcast, where we talk about all things sustainability, whether it's sustainability in ministry, in your personal life and we acknowledge that the church is in a transitional time, so we hit topics there too that are going to stretch your mind and the way you lead, especially how you lead yourself, so that you don't become the crabby pastor. So how do the pieces of your life fit together? Do they fit together well and things are humming along just fine, or are there some pieces that are tight or absent or just not fitting the bill? This is your invitation to join me in my glass workshop for a video series, where I am going to do a stained glass project while I talk to you about sustainability and building sustainability into your heart and into your life. So I am going to be doing my art, which is a form of self-care, and I'm going to invite you into that space with me and I'm going to chat. I'm going to chat about self-care and I'm going to show you how I create, and there's a nifty, nifty analogy Stained glass seems to be a very good metaphor for what I want to talk about, so I'd love for you to join me to do that. To opt in, I'll need you to email me at crabbypastor at gmailcom. That's crabbypastor at gmailcom. So you won't want to miss this. You definitely won't want to miss this. So make a plan to join me in the glass workshop.Margie: 2:10

Margie Bryce here, your host of the Crabby Pastor podcast, and this is going to be a real sweet episode. So you're going to have to tell all your friends and family to listen to this sweet episode, because we're going to be talking about sugar. You know, I grew up and I would have a bowl of Cheerios and milk and then at least one okay, maybe two teaspoons of sugar at least on there, Even when we picked blackberries. I remember also doing the same thing milk and a boatload of sugar. I mean just love, loved, loved that sugar. And that was well. I won't go into how many years ago that that was, but I think some of our mindset has changed on sugar, and I have here with me Tony Duell and and he is going to enlighten us on what might not be quite so sweet as we thought. So, Tony, can you introduce yourself to us?

Troy: 3:15

Absolutely. Thanks for having me, and I am with Centurion Labs, have been the CEO there since 2005 and have really been diving into the health space since probably the early 90s, where I got an education in sports medicine and exercise physiology and really just wanted to find out what things would really enhance the body's performance and make us better at what we do, and along the way, have been able to uncover a lot of products and a lot of dietary needs and issues that we may have that will help. If you address those things through your diet or through supplementation can really turn people's lives around and get that basis of diet and exercise down. And I think once you catch that base and you take ownership of that part, a lot of the other pieces fall in line. And that's really what we're about, what I'm about, and ultimately we want to have people take ownership of their health so they can elevate their health and life and have a better life because of it.

Margie: 4:27

Well, I was really interested in talking about sugar because I remember seeing and you can tell me whether this is internet made up or not, but I saw a scan. It was a CT scan of somebody whose brain was on sugar and then it was next to a CT scan of somebody whose brain was on I can't remember what drug if it was meth or crack or what and and at the moment I wasn't thinking about, is this real or not? But it was kind of horrifying. Is that? Is there anything to that?

Troy: 5:04

Unfortunately, there is a lot to it. So they have actually done studies to show that people who are on cocaine have the same part of the brain light up as we do when we eat sugar, which is why sugar is so addictive and why we want to eat more and more and more of it. So to the tune of American adults eating about 77 grams of sugar per day, when the American Heart Association recommends us just eating 24 grams a day for a woman and about 36 grams a day for men. So we are doubling that amount of sugar per day and need to really cut back on it per day and need to really cut back on it.

Troy: 5:49

Boy, okay, I was thinking you were going to tell me that maybe that was made up or something? No, unfortunately I couldn't tell you that. Okay, it releases the dopamine, just like cocaine does, and that's what lights up our pleasure center and we get super excited, which is why when you look at a pie, you start to really get excited and go, hmm, that looks really good.

Margie: 6:09

Yeah, yeah, I have a friend and she and I did Weight Watchers, you know, back in the day, and she would, I could eat, I could eat, and I still can't just eat. Like one Hershey kiss, you know, and and walk away and I keep them stashed in the either the refrigerator or the freezer, you know. I just, I don't know. It just seems like it's a bigger treat and it takes longer to melt. Maybe I don't know, but that's my drug of choice. And I said something to her about that. I said well, you know, you can just eat. You know, one Hershey kiss, I can't remember, it's maybe one or two points or something in the Weight Watcher realm. And she said I can't do that. She said, because it's like a drug to me, I will be off to the races if I do that.

Troy: 6:55

And that's why the other hidden secret is a lot of the foods that we eat whether that's the breads that we eat or any of the packaged foods they load up with sugar salad dressings. Those are some big ones and because they load it up with sugar, it leaves us wanting more and we want to go back to the, to the table, and keep eating.

Margie: 7:18

Well, what's creepy? What's creepy about what you're saying, though, is there was that whole surge of low fat, and, you know, because I was doing the label reading and stuff like that, and because my family is, you know, has a history with type two diabetes, and I was working at all costs to not go down that aisle, if I could help it I was reading a lot of labels, and I realized that, while they were taking fat out of certain things, they were putting sugar in. I guess you got to make it taste good somehow, but that was pretty horrifying, because then it sets us all up to go in a direction that we probably don't need to go.

Troy: 8:01

That's absolutely right, and it's not just the low-fat craze, but now you see the low-calorie or some of those other crazes that are out there, and really what's happening there is they may put artificial sweeteners in, or they may put what's called sugar alcohols in, and sugar alcohols in and of themselves are not terrible for our bodies.

Troy: 8:24

As a matter of fact, they could be found in some fruits from a natural standpoint, but they do have issues on the GI system. So you have a lot of people who, if they eat something that has sugar alcohols, it can really tear up your stomach and cause some serious issues because it doesn't break down. The stomach can't break it down with the bacteria that's there. Then on the other side, you may have some of the artificial sweeteners, and the artificial sweeteners they've actually compared and they would say that if you, if I, had to choose between taking a food with an artificial sweetener or a food with sugar, I would go with sugar every day, even though sugar is not good for you, because the artificial sweeteners also light up the same areas and they are 700 times sweeter than sugar, so it almost increases the addiction that much more, with other detrimental side effects along the way as well.

Margie: 9:19

So it lights up your brain. The same as regular sugar, but it sounds like they need way less of it to do that.

Troy: 9:28

You, you don't need as much, but what they're trying to do is light up that same pleasure center in order for you to crave that food and come back for it. So, but what they're finding is especially in diet sodas. We'll, we'll take that one, probably a good one, those diet sodas they have found, if they're consumed I can't remember what the number is, I think it's six per week or 12 per week, along those lines they have seen an increased and increased incidence of fatty liver in those patients. So it's bad for your liver because it's processing through there and you just have to be careful that you're not taking something that's bad for you and substituted, substituting something else that's even worse for you because you see that it's low calorie and you just have to be really cognizant of what you're taking into your body.

Margie: 10:22

So like, at the end of the day, you just got to come to the place where you say I just got to get off this roller coaster, Whether it is imitation sugars. And I remember way back in the day my mom used to sweeten her coffee with saccharin.Troy: 10:40

Oh yeah.

Margie: 10:41

And then that was bad. And then what came after saccharin? Oh yeah, and then that was bad, and then what came after saccharin?

Troy: 10:44

I can't remember whether saccharin splenda aspartame was, aspartame is like really not helpful at all.

Margie: 10:54

No, but now that it's like the names keep switching, so so, you know, I look at labels now and then I've got my phone and I'm Googling it to see if it really is a sugar. It looks like anything that ends in L-O-S-E lose. Maybe that should be a indicator. That's a helpful way.

Troy: 11:14

That's right. That's a helpful way to get it, but some of the more beneficial ones that you can lean towards that they have shown benefit from would be a stevia. So you can get stevia. What you have to watch for is a lot of those stevias are supplemented with sugar alcohols, like erythritol, which is probably one of the better ones, but you do have to watch to make sure you're not getting too much of those sugar alcohols. And then you can also have monk fruit not getting too much of those sugar alcohols, and then you can also have monk fruit. So stevia and monk fruit seem to be two of the better ones that are out there that you can bake with and do some sugar substitution with.

Troy: 11:52

So sugar erythritol or sugar alcohols, how much is too much say of sugar alcohol, Because I know that's got to be big with a lot of people that do keto related stuff right, it is, and typically they recommend about 15, I believe it's 15 grams a day that they're saying you don't want to get over 15 milligrams per day, that you don't wanna go over, so and it doesn't take a lot to really sweeten something up with those sugar alcohols which, by the way, it's neither sugar nor is it alcohol. It's actually a carbohydrate that they have broken down to bring out the sweetness. And the strange thing with those is they use it in a lot of the processed foods and cookies and other things to help sweeten it. But you can't buy it over the counter or at a grocery store for us to use in breads or cookies or anything else at home. So I'm not real sure how they use it in that baking realm, but they're able to use it in the baking realm, whereas we cannot use that on a regular basis.

Margie: 12:56

But you can buy stevia.

Troy: 12:58

You can buy stevia, you can buy monk fruit.

Margie: 13:00

Monk fruit, what is that?

Troy: 13:02

What is?

Margie: 13:03

Monk fruit.

Troy: 13:04

Monk fruit is actually, it's just a fruit called monk fruit and they take it out and pull out the sugars from it and then dry it up and then you can use it. They actually have coconut sugar that you can use as well. That seems to be. It has a little bit more benefit than regular sugar. It has a little bit more benefit than regular sugar, and the reason some of those have a better turn is if it's monk fruit you're getting more than just the sugar. The stevia comes from leaves that they're grinding up, so you get a little bit more sweetness from that. And regular sugar if you're doing teaspoons of sugar really has no vitamins. It has no nutritional value at all, whereas stevia actually has some value to it and monk fruit does as well.

Troy: 13:51

And you know, don't confuse fruits and vegetables with sugar. While they have sugar, they also have the fiber that goes along with it. So if you eat an apple or an orange and you're eating it because of that fiber, it's filling up your stomach and you're able to feel full after you eat it, whereas sugar you don't get that filling effect. So if you eat something that's sweet and it doesn't have the natural pieces that go with it, then that's what makes you hungry and start to crave more. And it's still lighting up that pleasure center.

Margie: 14:26

Yeah, yeah, because I know this is probably something I picked up in that and we watch around there is that if you're hungry, you know you should go for a protein or maybe even some kind of a fat will turn that off. But if you start doing the simple carbs, there you go, you're off to the races now because you know, like, whether they say one Oreo is not enough. You know you're just off to the races and you have to know that about yourself to stop. I mean, it's difficult to stop yourself.

Troy: 15:03

It is very difficult and I think it takes a lot of discipline. And most of that discipline I think you can really step up when you're in the grocery store, so making sure that you're shopping correctly, so then when you come home you're not tempted by those things, or setting yourself up with the discipline of what you said of one a day or maybe even just one day a week where you say, okay, I'm going to cheat and have my sugar this one day a week and kind of build it that way. But you know, we had talked earlier about some of those other substitutes that we see, like agave or honey or molasses.

Margie: 15:42

Yeah, that's the. So this is where there is, I think, some confusion is because those, some of them, seem to be natural, but you know, at the end of the day, so is sugar, it's plant plant like sugar cane. Right, that's right.

Troy: 15:58

Yep, so, and they still. If you take molasses or honey or agave, they still spike your sugar levels. So what you're trying to do is find something that's not going to spike your sugar levels, which also will spike that dopamine release in your brain. And we know that even though those are natural and they're still good in small doses, it's causing that same thing. So you've got to be careful. Just because it's natural, like you say, you still have to be careful and understand that those particular things can cause just as much havoc on our bodies as taking just regular sugar, teaspoons of sugar.

Margie: 16:41

So what kind of havoc does it wreak on our bodies?

Troy: 16:45

Sugar is a menacing piece. So we know that sugar is related to inflammation. So anybody who has inflammation in their joints it is a big precursor to that. We know that it has cardiovascular issues. That can happen and we also they've now called memory loss or Alzheimer's. Some people call that type three diabetes because sugar is part of the process with that as well. So memory loss, Alzheimer's, all those things is all linked to sugar and they're seeing more and more of a correlation between somebody's diet and their sugar intake and the increased incidence of Alzheimer's later on in life.

Margie: 17:35

Well, that ought to scare a few of us straight right.

Troy: 17:38

It should, it should.

Margie: 17:40

It's like well, I'm going back to double check my labels and stuff. You know, I know I will tend towards Stevia. They've got these lovely little drops at Whole Foods Market. Just one or two drops in your coffee and it's just a little bit, but it's all Stevia and it's all. You know. It doesn't feel criminal.

Troy: 18:00

Let's say that you get sweetness without the calories and without the bad side effects, so that's definitely key.

Margie: 18:11

Well, I remember years ago I used to drink coffee. Well, I still drink coffee, but I would put two teaspoons of sugar. Yeah, it was always at two teaspoons, you know, I don't even know how many grams or a teaspoon here, but I would put two teaspoons in and then milk, you know, and I decided I was going to try to rear off and I did it very slowly, I think I did the sugar first and so I kept putting creamer in. But I would go okay, today, instead of two teaspoons I'm going to do one and three quarters. I mean, it was a real slow baby step process to wean yourself off and to give yourself time to learn to like the coffee with less sugar in it. I mean, is that how we get ourselves off sugar?

Troy: 19:05

I think that is one of the best ways you can do that, which is just come up with a plan. Don't go cold Turkey unless you've. You've got that personality type that can, which few people can do that but certainly start to wean yourself off, because your taste buds will adjust to it and the less sugar you take in, the less you're going to crave, whether that's in your salad dressings or your meals or breads or whatever, and you'll begin to notice the amount of sugar or the sugar levels that are in each of those foods that you eat. So the more you can curb the addition of sugar, then it's going to help decrease all the other sugars that are there as well.

Margie: 19:46

So what does sugar do to your heart?

Troy: 19:51

Well, they have linked it to high blood pressure, they've linked it to stroke and they've linked it to just cholesterol. I'm trying to think of the other things that are there. So those are the main ones that you see. So you, you get increases in blood pressure increases and just overall heart disease that you may end up having. So those are the main things that you get.

Margie: 20:17

So the idea of like never having ever a piece of chocolate cake in your entire life is just Well, I can't even go there, because if I tell myself I am never going to, ever, that's it. You know that that doesn't help me out at all. But what are some real practical ways that we can? First steps, let's say, to reducing our sugar.Troy: 20:42

Yeah, I think first steps are start to really pay attention to the labels that you're eating with and see if they're adding more sugar than you need.

Margie: 20:49

So it says that on the label added sugar, doesn't it?

Troy: 20:53

It does. So if you're looking for that 24 grams a day, then start. Just just take a survey of all the foods that you're eating and all the labels and see how close you're getting. You know, probably the number one thing you can do is cut back on, or most people can do is cut back on their sodas, their diet sodas, cut back on those and then find ways to substitute the sugar. Try monk fruit, try stevia in your if you're doing homemade cakes or pies or whatever and see if you can change the way that you're doing your diet. That's one way to certainly step in and do those things.

Troy: 21:35

And then I think, recognizing that if you can satisfy that sweet tooth by picking up more fruits and vegetables and use that as a substitute when you start to crave those sweets, that's a great way to do it. And what I have seen be most successful is maybe for six days of the week you substitute with those fruits and those vegetables and then you know that on Saturday or Sunday you're coming up and you can have a slice of cake or you can reward yourself with a bowl of ice cream, whatever it is, but you don't make it a habit. And if you just cut back that way. Those are easy, practical ways that you can begin to get that under control. And if one day a week is too much or too hard, then say I'm going to reward myself two days a week and just go three days on, and then one day off and three days on again. So find out what works for you and then build up, and as you're doing that, your cravings for the sugar will start to dissipate and it'll get easier and easier over time.

Margie: 22:47

So this is just purely an opinion kind of question. Why do you think that sugar is not discussed as in this fashion in many circles?

Troy: 23:02

Well, it's probably because we all like it so much, and because we like it, we don't want to really understand why something that tastes so good may be so bad for us.

Troy: 23:16

And we have not done a good job as a society or culture to come in and say you know what moderation is where we need to be with most things. We are not a moderation type culture. We're either all in or we're all out in most things in our culture, and I think that falls in line with our diet as well, and we have not done a good job of training young kids on how what you eat really affects you and an understanding that our bodies were designed to operate in a certain way. And just like your car has to operate on certain fuels and certain oils and other things, our bodies were designed the same way. And until we get an understanding and a better understanding of how our body operates the best, I think we'll continue to kind of fall in that trap. But it's it truly is just a kind of a change in mindset of I'm not eating to live. Well, I eat to live instead of living to eat.

Margie: 24:26

Yeah, yeah, well I. I have one last question about liver health and how sugar. You mentioned fatty liver. I don't even know what that is exactly.

Troy: 24:40

What fatty liver is.

Troy: 24:42

Basically, if you have ever heard somebody who was suffering from alcoholism and they you hear about cirrhosis of the liver or something along those lines, that's what a fatty liver is. It's just it just becomes a diseased liver, and sugar does the same thing. And it really kind of makes sense that if somebody who's suffering from alcoholism has a diseased liver, most alcohol turns straight to sugar when it gets into the body. So sugar is doing the same thing it's going through the liver and it's causing your liver just to kind of get to be a blob and not function the way it's supposed to, which is to filter out all the bad things that we intake, whether through our environment or through our diet. And you know, they just continue to do study after study that show where sugar is increasing the risk of that fatty liver piece, which then can increase the risk of liver cancer or other liver diseases that are associated with it.

Margie: 25:47

Okay, okay. Well, is there anything that we have not covered, then, about sugar and the challenges we have with that?Troy: 26:00

I don't think so, you know. I think the biggest thing for us to understand is that sugar is definitely one of those things that we will crave. The more we eat it, the more you will crave it. It is just like an addiction crave the more we eat it, the more you will crave it. It is just like an addiction. So if you were somebody who did cocaine once and then you do it twice, you just want to keep going and going and going. So the goal is start to wean yourself off, like you said earlier, and really start to take ownership of that piece of your health. And if you can do that, you have a much better chance of reducing obviously obesity, obviously diabetes, but then also understanding that you're reducing chances of cardiovascular illness and effects, you're reducing the chance of Alzheimer's and dementia. So you have a much greater step forward in your health and longevity if you just take this one little piece and begin to take it off of off the table and reduce the amount of sugar that you take in.

Margie: 27:01

Okay, and remind us about what the recommended daily sugar intake is for men and women.

Troy: 27:08

For women it's about 24 grams per day, and for men it's about 24 grams per day, and for men it's about 36 grams per day and, unfortunately, our average is about 77 grams as adults and, believe it or not, it's about 81 grams for kids. So, yeah, we as parents have a much larger task in front of us because we have to control ourselves, but we also have to control our kids and really teach them what a healthy diet looks like and what discipline looks like when it comes to a diet.

Margie: 27:41

And the better sweeteners would be monk fruit stevia and then, if you're going to dabble, erythritol.

Troy: 27:48

Yeah, so erythritol would be one of the better sugar alcohols that are out there. It doesn't seem to have as much issues on the GI side effects. But you'll see, um, malitol is usually in like chewing gums and things like that, so you may see some of those and you'll see it in a lot of the sugar-free ice creams. You'll see the malitol and that's why a lot of people, after they eat sugar-free ice cream, they complain about being bloated or they just don't feel right, and that's because your body's not able to break down their sugar alcohol. So be careful of that. But coconut sugar, stevia and monk fruit would be the three that I would probably recommend would be the three that I would probably recommend.

Margie: 28:35

And what about? You know, just the? You see that on tables in the restaurant sugar in the raw. You know it's just a little brown packet. That's still sugar, right.

Troy: 28:41

It is still sugar and still something you need to be careful of and wary of, because anytime you're adding it that's a bad thing. But the biggest issue is again like we talked about earlier, which is looking at your salad dressings, looking at your ketchup, looking at your different tomato sauces, your pasta dishes and that's where most of those sugars add up, and then, especially in the sodas and diet drinks.

Margie: 29:07

So do you know how many grams are in a teaspoon? I'd have to maybe go Google that. How many grams of grams are in a teaspoon I'd have to maybe go Google that.

Troy: 29:13

How many grams of sugar are in a teaspoon?

Margie: 29:15

In a teaspoon of sugar.Troy: 29:17

I just went totally blank, but I think it's nine milligrams of there are nine calories per teaspoon and I just went totally blank, so I'm sorry.

Margie: 29:29

Well, that's okay, that's okay, I'm sure we can Google it and I'll put it in the show notes. How many it's just so I know because, as I'm thinking back to my bowl of Cheerios with two teaspoons of sugar and just being a kid and there's probably some sugar in the milk as well there is. That's why I've shifted to like unsweetened almond milk instead, you know, just to try to make a better choice. I don't always make. Please, audience, do not get the idea that I always make the best choice. I'm working, it's a work in progress. You know, you can't, you can't, I don't know. I couldn't have stopped cold turkey with the coffee and the sugar in the coffee. I have to kind of wean myself off and, you know, make friends with the new taste before I proceed. So I definitely don't do it all right. But it really is something I think we need to consider, we need to look at and certainly, you know, alzheimer's is now being plopped in the mix. You know, jeepers.

Margie: 30:32

And that is something we should think about. So thank you so much, Troy, for having this conversation, for giving us that education on sugar. Thank you.

Troy: 30:45

Thanks, Margie, I appreciate it.

Margie: 30:49

Are you wondering whether your fatigue, your lack of motivation, your lack of interest is burnout Maybe? I just wanted to let you know that I have a resource on the website Margie Bryce dot com that's B-R-Y-C-E Margie Bryce dot com, and it is a burnout questionnaire, free for you to download, and kind of self-assess and get a sense of where you're at. There are questions that not only ask about what you're going through but maybe how often you're experiencing it and that's kind of a key to where you might be, because you have to know where you are in order to chart a course forward. And most pastors who experience pastors and ministry leaders who experience burnout rarely know that that's where they're at until they're well into it. And if you're unsure about that little statistic, so far, everybody that I've interviewed on this podcast who has experienced burnout, when I asked that kind of question, they're like, yeah, I didn't know, that's where I was at. So again, go to margiebricecom it's on the home page of the website and you can get your burnout questionnaire and kind of see where you're at.

Margie: 32:27

Hey friends, the Crabby Pastor podcast is sponsored by Bryce Art Glass and you can find that on Facebook I make stained glass as part of my self-care and also by Bryce Coaching, where I generate from coaching and from making stained glass is what is supporting this podcast and I will have opportunities for you to be a part of sponsoring me and, as always, you can do the buy me a cup of coffee thing in the in the show notes cup of coffee thing in the show notes.

Margie: 33:15

View Details

Discover the power of perspective in this transformative discussion with Kristen Humiston, as we peel back the layers of trauma experienced within the church. Together, we challenge the conventional approach of questioning what's wrong with individuals, pivoting instead to exploring the pivotal events that have shaped them.We dissect the crucial role of self-care for pastors, emphasizing the necessity for leaders to be equipped with empathy and insight—to not only heal others effectively but to sustain their own spiritual journey.This leads our conversation to include lament: an undervalued treasure in evangelical circles. This potent path helps us heal from deep-seated pain.Join us for an episode that promises to leave you with an enriched understanding and tangible resources to support the unseen battles within your congregation.Connect with Kristen by clicking HERE.

Support the show

🦀 🦀 🦀

Find regular support on my Facebook group by clicking HERE.Connect with me about COACHING and Workshops on self-care HERE.

TranscriptMargie: 0:01

Hey, there it's Margie Bryce, your host of the Crabby Pastor podcast, where we talk about all things sustainability, whether it's sustainability in ministry, in your personal life and we acknowledge that the church is in a transitional time, so we hit topics there too that are going to stretch your mind and the way you lead, especially how you lead yourself, so that you don't become the crabby pastor. So how do the pieces of your life fit together? Do they fit together well and things are humming along just fine, or are there some pieces that are tight or absent or just not fitting the bill? This is your invitation to join me in my glass workshop for a video series, where I am going to do a stained glass project while I talk to you about sustainability and building sustainability into your heart and into your life. So I am going to be doing my art, which is a form of self-care, and I'm going to invite you into that space with me and I'm going to chat. I'm going to chat about self-care and I'm going to show you how I create, and there's a nifty, nifty analogy Stained glass seems to be a very good metaphor for what I want to talk about, so I'd love for you to join me to do that. To opt in, I'll need you to email me at crabbypastor at gmail dot com. That's crabbypastor at gmail dot com. So you won't want to miss this. You definitely won't want to miss this. So make a plan to join me in the glass workshop.

Margie: 2:12

Welcome to part two of our discussion on trauma. I am here with Kristen Humiston again and we got to and through in the last episode a good discussion about trauma and what it is exactly, and we kind of, near the end, got to the place where the question was what is wrong with these people? And you know, I think as pastors, many of us ask that question why does it seem like and this was captured in Janyne McConaughey's book Trauma in the Pews where there's a faction of any congregation where it seems like they just grab hold of the gospel and they just run with it? And then you've got this other segment where sometimes you kind of wonder well, okay, in all honesty, there were days and times that I wondered if they were crash test dummies not meaning dummy people like dummies but that they were looking at me like that from the before or they would.

Margie: 3:09

It would look like or feel like that what I was delivering in sermons and stuff was just casually bouncing off of people, you know, and so you have to say well, what's wrong with these sheep, what is wrong with them? To say is well, what's wrong with these sheep, what is wrong with them? And I think Janyne correctly identifies and we've talked some here, Kristen, about trauma and how it impacts people and their abilities to receive the gospel, so. But I know that you have a bit of a pushback and that I'm good with that. I like that. It makes for a fun interview for sure, for sure, with my question what is wrong with them? So I'm going to let you have at that.

Kristen: 3:54

Yeah, thank you, Margie, thanks for having me back, and it's always a delight and a pleasure to be able to talk with ministry leaders about trauma and healing and like, where does the church fit in to that? Because the church should be leading the way. And before you and I jumped on and hit record, we were talking about how, historically, there have been times where the church has led the way in bringing healing work to people's practical lives. Right that I'm moving into professional social work, and social work was born out the movement of Christians seeing people who were hurting and oppressed and needing food and clothing and meeting those needs, and so, historically, the church has a part of it that has provided healing.

Kristen: 4:48

There's another dark side to Christianity and the church Historically. We don't need to go into that today, but how do we bring healing? And again, that is like Jesus announced his ministry by echoing the words from Isaiah 61. I have come to set the captives free, to heal the broken hearted, and so this is his heart, and we are called to be his ambassadors, right To bring his heart to the world around us. So how do we do that? And your question, what is wrong with them, like, how can we fix them. That is a common question and frustration in ministry. I was speaking with a friend the other day and we just kind of said like you know, people, people and we are people. Right, we are people, we people too, we people too. And the the better question to ask in those moments of frustration really is what has happened to them, not as what is wrong with them, but what has happened to them?

Margie: 5:59

Yeah, I mean, I think we would all agree and we've said I mean, I know ministry leaders have said, you know, ministry would be great, you know, if it wasn't for the people but ministry is the people and they were all broken. It's easy to say that we're all broken. The truth of the reality of that is that there's healing to be done. There's work to be done, whether it's growing your understanding of why I do the things I do, or, as ministry leaders, you know, oh, why is it that every time that congregant walks in the room I kind of want to smote him, or something like that? You know what I'm saying. There's, there's reasons that we react and respond, and sometimes it is out of our brokenness.

Kristen: 6:55

Yeah, we all have stories, Right, and that's why I'm a big proponent and I love what you're doing when, with that focus on-care, we have to be intentionally working on our own care so that we're serving out of a place that has capacity to hold some of the brokenness of other people that is going to be present.

Kristen: 7:21

It's a heavy job to walk through ministry life and respond to crises, respond to broken marriages, all of the things that we have to carry which that doesn't even like. Those are just two of them, right, I have a big, long list that we could list off. And if we're not in a place where we're working on our healing, taking Sabbath rest, making sure that we're protecting ourselves from burnout, taking care of our own personal marriage or relationships, if you're not married like whatever that looks like if we're not doing healthy practices on a regular basis, we are just simply not going to have the energy, the compassion you know that's needed to really hold space well for the hurting, and that's actually our calling. So we have to be caring for ourselves well first, so that we have something to care well for others first, so that we have something to care well for others.

Margie: 8:34

Sure, and I think Jesus said it this way love your neighbor as yourself. So if you aren't caring for yourself as a mere mortal, as someone who understands I have limitations, you know, as a human being, if I'm not loving myself and being a good steward with the body and the temperament and the mindset and all of that, then how well am I equipped to care for others and kind of in the? If you take that then away from the individual focus for a moment and go to the congregational level, how well are we as a congregation able to show compassion to those around us? Because, cause, you know, we frankly run out of gas and I don't know, I get cranky when I run out of gas. I just do. It isn't hard to imagine, I guess, but but yeah, I can't be the only one out here that gets cranky and crabby.

Kristen: 9:39

Well, I think I think about when, as a parent, I six children and so I have to remember that acronym FALT right Hungry, angry, lonely, tired, like, are my kids one of these things? Because if they are, or maybe they're more than one of those things at the time, then their meltdown makes sense. And that's what we mean when we shift that question from what is wrong with them to what happened to them or what is happening with them now, like there's a reason for the behavior, whether it's a child or an adult. Something is underneath the behavior, and what we often do in ministry and in the church world is we just say sin and we slap it on there and we say, well, if you'd get rid of that sin issue, then everything would be fine. And it looks at it a little bit too simplistically. Sin is most certainly involved, but it also can be that the behavior is a result of someone else's sin on us and not our own.

Margie: 10:52

And that is a hard place, having to deal with someone else's sin on us, whether it leaves you feeling rejected or angry or any of any of those things and trying to navigate through that. But you're right, sin is kind of a sometimes a simplistic, would you say that sin might be a symptom of some trauma Not in all cases, but in some.

Kristen: 11:20

It will. Sin will play a part. Okay, Right, trauma entered the world when Adam and Eve fell. That was the moment where everything changed and I cannot think of a more traumatic moment. If we're going to look at an event that I cannot think of a more traumatic moment. Right, to go from a perfect world, no fear, no doubt, no guilt, no shame, complete free communication with God. He came and he went, he came and he went and there was no doubt of his love. There was no doubt of love and connection between Adam and Eve. And then, in that moment, they knew and they hid. So that first moment of experiencing shame, when sin entered the world. Again, trauma is really the impact of events on us, but when we're thinking about an event that ushered in trauma, there is no greater event in history that was more traumatic to go from a perfect world to a completely imperfect world.

Margie: 12:43

And it changed everything, sure, sure and basically they got evicted because, yeah, if you think about it, where you know well, you're not living here anymore and I've done some reading where it was brought out that you know God put that boundary there and you say, oh well, that's not very nice, but the truth of the matter is, if the boundary hadn't been there, we would have been back at the apple tree again anyway. Right. Because, that's who we are right, because that's who we are.

Kristen: 13:18

but basically they had to deal with life under very different terms and what, uh, what they were used to, yeah, and what was intended? Right, what was intended?

Margie: 13:26

yeah for sure. So. So let's, let's go to then a solution with this and that that has to do with some healing and how trauma actually gives us an opportunity, if you want to. Everybody says I don't have any trauma. I'm like we just all went through group trauma the whole planet did with with covid right, and I think we're still a little wiggy from that. I don't know whether how that wears off over time, but talk to us some about healing and the opportunity for that with the church?

Kristen: 14:03

yeah, absolutely so. I think the bible gives us two really clear there's more but two that I wanted to talk about ways that we have to heal. God given created ways to heal, and the first is that we must express our pain, and in America, or Western Christianity especially, we are not taught this. We have been taught repeatedly which we mentioned a little bit before that emotions are bad, we need to just carry on. We focus on verses such as forgetting what's behind, I press forward towards the prize, and we use other verses, just kind of pick and choose verses that imply that we shouldn't ever think about, reflect on or express our emotions and pain, and that's led to tremendous anxiety, depression, physical symptoms, because our bodies were not meant to carry that kind of pain.

Kristen: 15:07

And so lamentations, laments throughout Proverbs, laments throughout Psalms and Lamentations and other places where we see it with the prophets, laments are our gift to learn and to be able to practice expressing our pain. So commonly I will walk women and men that I'm working with through the process of how to lament, and that's something that we don't do as a church, community or body. Some denominations or some traditions Christian traditions do that more than others, but by and large, the evangelical church does not practice lamenting. The evangelical church does not practice lamenting In. You know, in my experience and what I've seen, that it's really left to maybe preach on maybe one Sunday a year.

Margie: 16:06

Although I can't.

Kristen: 16:07

This is a Sunday Right Like I can't, and some Christian traditions have Sundays and seasons where they focus on that. We just went through like Lent, and some really use that season as an opportunity to lament, and that's our gift. That's our gift from God well, yeah, I think about.

Margie: 16:27

one of my favorite passages is is where Elijah is saying I've had Lord, I am ready to just die, just kill me now. I'm the only one left and that cares about what you care about. And that wasn't factually correct. But I still like the fact that he just kind of whines somewhere and you know you kind of whine and own it and say this is what the harm that has been done to me and what's the value then in expressing that.

Kristen: 17:02

It gets it out so that we have to move through our pain and trauma and it will have a place where it can be kind of filed away. Events become neutral rather than continuing to affect our physiological states, even so, our nervous system, and so when we lament and we can leave it at the feet of christ, then he can carry it, and that's what the cross was about. That Jesus carried. We focus a lot on oh, I'm a sinner, and so Jesus carried my sins. Jesus carried the sins of your abuser. Jesus carried the sins of the one who has deeply rejected you, and so who else can I go to? God is the only one who can carry that kind of pain.

Margie: 18:04

So one thing you would say then is somehow to have and I want to say avenue, have a way for lament, for pain to be expressed, maybe more than once a year, whether it is, you know, in the corporate worship or whether there's other places within your church where that is acceptable practice. Because I'm, like you know, you just quoted my life verse. Thank you very much. I press on towards the'm. Like you know, you just quoted my life first. Thank you very much. I press on towards the goal and you know, and I think there are times and places that I have just moved past pain and felt like, as long as I can put one foot in front of the other, I'm good to go, not realizing that it is something weighing you down that does have an impact. Did you say you had a second verse?

Kristen: 19:00

I mean laments are I'm not quite sure.

Kristen: 19:03

Laments are all throughout Psalms right, so I love Psalm 6,. 6 is a beautiful. David says my eyes waste away for the grief, Like my couch is drenched in tears. Right. Psalm 13, psalm 22, 42. These are some laments. He laments and he says my God, my God, why have you forsaken me? And we're so afraid of saying things like that? We think that, like I don't know where God's gonna, you know might us for doing that. And yet we have not just David, but we have other people as well, throughout scripture that express that idea. Jesus himself expressed that. Right If we took it and we put it in a sentence format instead, instead of a question my God, my God, why have you forsaken me? What is David's complaint?

Margie: 20:00

He's been forgotten.Kristen: 20:01

Yeah, god has abandoned me. This is what David's saying. Most of us would be afraid of saying that out loud.

Margie: 20:10

Yeah.

Kristen: 20:11

Yet we have examples in scripture that show us it's okay to express that loud, yeah, yeah. We have examples in scripture that show us it's okay to express that.

Margie: 20:17

Right, right. Well, we're all about the happy, happy, happy, absolutely, and and you want, you want joy. But if there is a faction group of people smattered throughout your congregation that are just you know, and I'm thinking back to, oh, this is quite a few years ago, and there was a church that we visited and they were heavy into it, was charismatic. This is not you know, and I'm not saying anything negative about charismatic folk, but it happened to be a charismatic church and, yeah, I'm not saying anything negative about charismatic folk, but it happened to be a charismatic church and they happened to be heavily engaged in some amazing praise and worship stuff. But after you'd gone for three or four weeks, I was like man, I don't know if I can rally every week to this. You know, let me take a break, you know, come in and go out or something, because it just was. It's not the reality that we live down here.

Kristen: 21:22

Right, right, and we need both. I mean, ecclesiastes 3 talks about there's a time for mourning and weeping and there's time for dancing and joy. So I think we just need to learn and practice moving through our emotions a little more fluidly, embracing seasons of joy, embracing seasons of mourning, and comforting one another, being okay, becoming comfortable with other people, not being okay Right, it's okay to not be okay. I mean, that's a saying right now, but when I think about Ecclesiastes, it covers the breadth of our human experiences. And we have death. That's painful. I have to have a way to express how painful that is. It's part of my human experience. There's no reason to always stay in this happy, happy place.

Kristen: 22:18

And what's really neat about a lament? The primary part is a complaint about against God. I have this complaint and it eventually moves towards expressing what my need is. In Psalm 13, david says look on me and answer me Like, give light to my eyes. These are things I need. I need to hear from you. Who of us as humans hasn't said man, would God just tell me or show me or comfort me Like, would he not just show up? Right, all of us have. So I don't know why we feel we need to deny our humanity so much? And he moves, and that's what a lament does. Eventually we move to that process of man. I trust in your unfailing love, and that's what faith is. I have to cling to the character of God because I am not God, I do not have his mind and I do not understand him Right. And it's okay, I'm okay to admit I don't get God, I don't have the answers, and sometimes that's really frustrating, sometimes that's really wearisome, sometimes that's really painful, so so when you're moving through pain.

Margie: 23:38

You brought us through the lament, where you're going to identify what your issues are. You can even go to scripture and, you know, read about.

Margie: 23:47

David was in the pit of despair you know all of that, and then we just get to the place where we decide, because there's a cycle that David goes through. He has this complaint, and then, by the time you get to the end of the Psalm, he's back at yet God, you are God and I am not, which, personally, I'm very happy that I'm not God and that God is God. And is that a way, then, of moving through the pain?

Kristen: 24:17

Absolutely, absolutely, and I think you know I think about women's Bible studies or the typical retreat. It's very much like a you rah rah rally, and I was sitting with someone recently who had gone to a large women's event that had focused on lamenting, and throughout the weekend that's what the event did was walked, you know, hundreds of women through the process of lamenting so they could lay it down. And then what do we do as a body of believers? We rejoice together, right. We become one another's compassionate witnesses and we're able to hear harder stories and share our harder stories. We're able to experience humility and vulnerability Again, things that are pretty lost in most American churches, and then we can offer that belonging and safety to people, because it's okay to come and bring my painful story into the church Again and again. One of the biggest things I hear in my one-to-one work with people is I can't share this anywhere else and we are. We are being complicit in like inner death inside of people by not allowing people to bring their stories into the church walls.

Margie: 25:48

And then it will. You know. One thing that has just really been coming to me late is how can we challenge the church to bump it up in the compassion to others realm? How can we increase compassion for us?

Kristen: 26:09

I think, when I hear that, I go back to the question what happened to you? When we hear people's stories, how do we respond? As humans, we respond to story, and I don't know if you've ever had this experience, but I have, where I've totally made up some thing about a person, right, oh, they are so fill in the blank and I carry that belief around with me. And then maybe I carried around for a few years, right, maybe I carried around for many years. And then I find out something about them that they experienced or that had happened to them that I never knew, and I go, oh okay, well, that makes sense now. Now I understand why they fill in the blank.

Margie: 26:59

So if they were extra prickly and then you responded with maybe you were prickly back and then you responded with maybe you were prickly back, or maybe you just retreated or something. Any of those responses are less than loving. And maybe if we came at some things with gosh, are you okay? Yeah, what's going?

Kristen: 27:18

on what happened to you. What happened to you, yeah.

Margie: 27:21

That would be a different, different result, maybe

Kristen: 27:25

Yeah, and I like how you use that example, because let's use the word prickly there's a lot of people in churches that are prickly no Right, and my husband and I have a name that we would use for those people sometimes, and so it's the ones that you're like oh man, lord, just give me some more love, give me some more love for them. And when I think about it, when we've sat down with those people and started just asking questions like hey, tell us, like more about how you grew up, what was, what was your life like? What have been some of the highlights or the lowlights? Right, tell us more about you. I have always walked away from those conversations with greater compassion. So we need to make time for relationship of ministry and kind of how the system has set itself up, because leadership boards put a lot of demands on pastors with their time that are unrealistic and cannot be fulfilled and leaves very little time to make relationship with those that are actually in the congregation. So this is an everybody in the body of Christ job.

Kristen: 28:43

It is to connect with one another to learn another person's story? Right? And if we were all doing that? Because because often I also hear from ministry leaders no one cares about me? No one? Right? Because we just don't have a, a system or a body, a culture of caring for one another. So who's going to go first, right? Who's going to be the one that says you know what? I'm going to set it? I'm going to set aside one hour every month and just meet and connect with someone that maybe I already know. It doesn't need to be somebody new, but I don't really know their story and I'm just going to, I'm just going to hear their story. What if we spent 12 hours out of an entire year learning 12 different individuals stories? How would that grow our compassion? It doesn't need to be difficult, it doesn't need to be intensive, but that alone will grow your compassion, will grow your compassion.

Margie: 29:45

Absolutely, absolutely. Give me a minute to walk in someone else's shoes. Well, thank you very much for this conversation around healing and around other people's pain and how we can press ourselves to be the hands and feet of Jesus for other people.

Kristen: 30:08

Yeah, thanks for having me again.

Margie: 30:11

Are you wondering whether your fatigue, your lack of motivation, your lack of interest is burnout Maybe? I just wanted to let you know that I have a resource on the website, margiebryce dot com that's b-r-y-c-e. Margiebryce dot com and it is a burnout questionnaire, free for you to download, and kind of self-assess and get a sense of where you're at. There are questions that not only ask about what you're going through but maybe how often you're experiencing it and that's kind of a key to where you might be, because you have to know where you are in order to chart a course forward. And most pastors who experience pastors and ministry leaders who experience burnout rarely know that that's where they're at until they're well into it. And if you're unsure about that little statistic, so far, everybody that I've interviewed on this podcast who has experienced burnout, when I asked that kind of question, they're like, yeah, I didn't know, that's where I was at. So again, go to margiebryce dot com it's on the homepage of the website and you can get your burnout questionnaire and kind of see where you're at.

Margie: 31:50

Hey friends, the Crabby Pastor podcast is sponsored by Bryce Art Glass and you can find that on Facebook.

Margie: 31:59

I make stained glass, that's part of my self-care and also by Bryce Coaching, where I coach ministry leaders and business leaders, and so the funds that I generate from coaching and from making stained glass is what is supporting this podcast and I will have opportunities for you to be a part of sponsoring me and, as always, you can do the buy me a cup of coffee thing in the show notes.

Margie: 32:33

But I will have some other ways that you can be a part of getting the word out about the importance of healthy self-care for ministry leaders leaders. Hey, thanks for listening. It is my deep desire and passion to champion issues of sustainability in ministry and for your life, so I'm here to help. I stepped back from pastoral ministry and I feel called to help ministry leaders create and cultivate sustainability in their lives so that they can go the distance with God and whatever plans that God has for you. I would love to help, I would consider it an honor, and, in all things, make sure you connect to these sustainability practices you know, so that you don't become the Crabby Pastor.

View Details

What is wrong with those sheep, anyway? My guest, Kristen Humiston, and I unpack that topic, and find a surprising link: our own trauma. Sure, it's easy to say we are all broken, but exploring our brokenness to become wounded healers is a different sort of journey. Listen as we discuss the unexpected ways in which our scars can equip us to lead with profound compassion and authenticity. Embarking on a path to self-awareness is no solitary endeavor, especially for those shepherding faith communities. Kristen and I explore the importance of recognizing the patterns that tether us to our past, how to bravely step towards change, and the necessity of having a sanctuary for reflection.

Support the show

🦀 🦀 🦀

Find regular support on my Facebook group by clicking HERE.Connect with me about COACHING and Workshops on self-care HERE.

TranscriptMargie: 0:01

So how do the pieces of your life fit together? Do they fit together well and things are humming along just fine, or are there some pieces that are tight or absent or just not fitting the bill? This is your invitation to join me in my glass workshop for a video series, where I am going to do a stained glass project while I talk to you about sustainability and building sustainability into your heart and into your life. So I am going to be doing my art, which is a form of self-care, and I'm going to invite you into that space with me and I'm going to chat. I'm going to chat about self-care and I'm going to show you how I create, and there's a nifty, nifty analogy Stained glass seems to be a very good metaphor for what I want to talk about, so I'd love for you to join me to do that. To opt in, I'll need you to email me at crabbypastor at gmail dot com. That's crabbypastor at gmail dot com. So you won't want to miss this. You definitely won't want to miss this, so make a plan to join me in the glass workshop. So I am back again.

Margie: 2:03

This is Margie Bryce, your host of the Crabby Pastor podcast, and we are still talking about trauma. We spent an episode defining it and an episode talking about healing related topics, lamenting, and I, you know, I'd like to say that, as ministry leaders, we get a pass on this. We are exempt. However, it became my understanding, at least in seminary, that the very things that drive us into leadership, which you know and I'm not negating God's call here at all leadership which you know, and I'm not negating God's call here at all but there are things that have happened in our lives that actually helped to propel us along.

Margie: 2:52

So usually and I have said this to be fair, I said this from the pulpit that I'm probably the most broken one here in the room, quite possibly because I came to understand that aspect of trauma in the life of a ministry leader, and we can say Romans 8, 28. And I know I said before that, if you said that to me on the right day. I might smote you for it, but still that doesn't negate the truth just because you've annoyed me in the moment on a bad day. There is truth in Romans 8, 28. We just have to look for how God is going to work and redeem any situation, and usually, though, we're called into ministry because God has done a work in our hearts and in our lives, and so we want to share that with others, and God nudges and propels us in that way. So I am here with Kristen Humiston again, and I'm enjoying our conversation. Kristen, you've got some really great things to offer, but talk to us some about trauma in the pastor.

Kristen: 4:11

Yeah, I love how you said. Often what draws us into leadership in the church are our own experiences, part of God's calling on our life. Right, it is his way. It is God's way. When I first was well, a little bit on my healing journey, I realized when I said out loud to my husband it's almost as if God has a path of healing, like a way that he always works. God has a path of healing like a way that he always works. Which is so true and I see it again and again and again when I'm working with others as well that there is this way God has for us in healing. It's not all the same specifics, but there are some general principles I see him pulling us through and that does bring him glory. That is part of God's glory in us, and then that we turn that and use it to comfort others in the way we've been comforted. Right, there's a passage in the word about that.

Margie: 5:19

And so I remember the first time I encountered that passage. Like you know, you read past stuff, but you know the time that it really jumps out of the page at you. I mean it makes the hair on the back of your neck stand up for a brief minute because you're thinking, hmm, in the very spots where I have been broken and then healed, I am to then offer that to other people.Kristen: 5:47

Yeah. So this is what he does in us, whether we're in full-time ministry, pastoral ministry, or whether we're not right, whether we're working as a teacher or in a grocery store or in a factory. We are called as believers to shine God's glory, and one of the ways that his glory shines in us is through his redemptive work, which is part of that healing and sanctification process. I am learning and I am responding in healthier ways now and better ways. Now I'm more able to own when I have wronged somebody now, because all the protective layers that we end up piling on ourselves when we've been hurt, they can come off.

Kristen: 6:40

And so in our previous episode, we were talking about the prickly person. Well, the prickly person, guaranteed, has been deeply, deeply wounded, whether it's from a highly controlling or criticizing parent. Something has wounded their soul so deeply that that prickliness is coming out of that place. Deeply that that prickliness is coming out of that place. And so, for us as ministry leaders, often what I see, rather than the prickliness, we have learned to cover it up, pretend it's not there, and we cope in maybe, another direction, which is to keep everything always outward focused, everything always outward focused. So, as we talked today about healing for the pastor's heart. There is time where we have to begin to allow the Holy Spirit to take off those layers, and that is done in the process, usually with another person who can be our compassionate witness, who can help guide us through learning to lament, who can look at us and validate the pain and sometimes, before even validating like, be able to expose what has been done to us.

Margie: 8:05

Okay, now, how can you have a sense as, say, a ministry leader? How could you come to an awareness that you need to pursue this? What are some indicators?

Kristen: 8:26

I want to. That is a fantastic question, and this brings to mind just the process of change altogether. The process of change starts with pre-awareness. You just don't even know right. So right now, there may be people listening to this conversation that are like I don't have anything to heal from, I'm good. I would highly doubt, however, that most people would think that, right, there's either a relationship that you're avoiding or maybe it's a memory, maybe it is an ongoing sin, it might be feeling bitterness, it might be struggling with anger. All of those things are symptoms that something's under there and we do need to address it. Some just flat out no and refuse to. I'm not going to go there.

Kristen: 9:32

Generally, the fear is, if I do, I don't actually know that I can like pick myself up off the floor. It is the sense of like opening Pandora's box, and that is far too scary. The other element, especially that I see with pastors, is that this again the external pressure of like I don't have time. There's still stigma in a lot of congregations. What if my leaders found out that I was seeking help? And help can be a spiritual director, it can be a therapist, it can be a coach. Obviously, trauma needs to be dealt with well, and so I would recommend doing that with a therapist. But there are other people, helpers as well, that can be a part of that support. And so not all seasons are for intentional healing. Being aware of where you're at in your season and what you can do to begin to kind of let some of those layers go is really vital, I think, in beginning to address in the way that that is comfortable and kind of like I say comfortable, I mean like doable in your particular season.

Margie: 10:51

Right, it may not be exactly comfortable.

Margie: 10:55

Like fun picnic time you know, you know you can be toddling along in life and you can do some big and amazing things and then have a different situation just trigger you really weirdly and you're like what is going on? And then you find out this is this is autobiographical here. And then you find out that, oh gee, I never did really deal with that trauma from 20 years ago and I just kept putting one foot in front of the other and I was even an effective leader and did some really cool things. But you don't realize that you're carrying this heavy baggage around and God is saying and God is saying, hey, you were not made to carry that, let me carry this for you.

Margie: 11:47

And ultimately you can be led to a place of pursuit of healing in various forms. However that looks, I think I know for me as a ministry coach that if I got to the place with someone where I was like, okay, I think this is beyond the scope of what I am able to handle and what I've been prepared to handle, you need to maybe seek some therapy. You need to seek something a little bit deeper to draw this out of you. You know I would do that, but sometimes, you know, coaches can be helpful and effective as well. So we're talking about how, you know, a ministry leader might have an idea that there's something underneath, there's something that just keeps triggering you, or or maybe it's just that you just don't like the way that you're handling something. You know.

Kristen: 12:43

Yep, and I think that's the thing. Like it may be an ongoing issue. Like I said, chronic anger, explosive moments that maybe only come out.

Margie: 12:55

Anger's a secondary emotion, isn't it? It's not, it is there's others because I had a friend say this to me and she had a counseling background she goes well, you're angry. And I said, yes, I am, she goes well, anger is a secondary emotion. I'm like, what does that mean? She goes, that means there's usually something under the anger, kind of driving it and I thought, wow, I had to think about that.

Kristen: 13:22

Can you expound on that for us a bit? Yeah, so anger.

Kristen: 13:29

Anger is a good emotion, it's a cue emotion and oftentimes there is it's a protective emotion, so it's keeping us being able to continue on, because all of our coping mechanisms are just that they are survival techniques and at once they served us and now they don't, and so that's another way that you can tell it's time to seek some other, like some outside. Help in healing is when you can notice that some of the patterns of your behavior are causing conflict in relationships or causing struggle, and maybe just even daily functioning, even just to say like I don't, I don't actually like the way I feel anymore, I don't like functioning like this. I want something different. All of those things are going to be indicators that, okay, maybe this is time and you move more into from that pre-contemplation, which is lack of awareness, to like, actually I'm going to sit a minute. Yeah, actually I do know some things that maybe are not what I want them to be. Okay, and that's contemplation.Kristen: 14:38

There is something that I want to change, but maybe I'm not really sure yet if I'm ready to change it or how to go about it, what to do, and then the next stage is that we actually move into more of preparation or determination.Kristen: 14:53

We're getting ready to make some changes, so that might be. You know what? I am going to sit down and maybe find two or three people that I could reach out to. I am going to sit down and maybe find two or three people that I could reach out to, and maybe it's just a friend to start with, maybe it's sharing a struggle with a friend that you haven't shared before, and it just can be like I am struggling with bitterness, I'm feeling really bitter and I'm not really sure what to do with that right now, and hopefully we each at least have one safe place. And I would say that's the other thing that for ministry leaders, if you don't have one safe place, I don't care what you're aware of, other than that that is a cue to reach out and find somebody that can be a safe place, because we all need that.

Margie: 15:38

And it's a safe place to be totally honest with what you're thinking, with what you're feeling, and no judgment there. But you've got to be able to unpack it. Unpack it and kind of look at the baggage that you're carrying along with you and decide what things stay in the bag and what things really need to go. It's a challenging task at times, but one that is well worth pursuing, because ministry leaders I mean you have your church realm but you also have your family and friends and you ooze the bad stuff out.

Margie: 16:22

Actually, if it's not, you know, in the pulpit and I have seen that happen where somebody has just gone off and lost it and you really don't want to do that because it undermines everything you're working on. But I have seen that happen, everything you're working on, but I have seen that happen and you kind of are like you don't want to do that, but maybe it's at home. Maybe it's at home where you stand up every Sunday and you look a certain way and we all do that, we all get up there and you have a pulpit persona that just kind of goes into gear and you are that and it is you. But then maybe you go home and things don't really line up there, or with friends or with other relationships that are of great value to you.

Kristen: 17:17

Yeah, I even think about phrases, as you're sharing there, that come out, that can be cue phrases or words that kind of indicate hey. So if you're saying you need to, you need to, you need to, or sometimes the opposite I need to, I need to, I need to Usually trauma is going to either turn you in towards judging yourself harshly or turn you out and criticize and judge others harshly. So the you need to or I need to phrase if that's something that's repeatedly happening in your mind or in your words to others, you can hear that that's an indicator. Actually, there might be some things to explore here. It's also kind of like the shoulding you should, I should, right. And when we hear phrases like man, it must be nice for them to fill in the blank. That is a sign of compassion fatigue, something very common for those in ministry. There's burnout signs. You can take quizzes anywhere. Just Google it, Yep.

Kristen: 18:27

There's on my website even Right.

Kristen: 18:30

So so, yeah, when, when those things are showing up more indicators of hmm, and you see that, and as pastors, it's hard in yourself giving a message to always hear it unless you're going back and listening to your message.

Kristen: 18:48

But hopefully there's someone in your congregation that again you're willing to receive their feedback and they can be the ones that say you know, you're kind of focusing on this a lot because what, what's going on inside of a pastor does come out from the pulpit on a Sunday morning, and I've, I've seen that again and again the problem oftentimes the problem or the struggle that is most intimate for the person giving the message is going to be the be the area that they focus on in their messages big picture. So if you've been in a church listening to a pastor for a while, the emphasis that they give demonstrates what they are thinking, what they're struggling with. It's pretty out there on display. At the same time, I'm currently sitting underneath an amazing pastor who the humility and the compassion for others continually oozes out, and so when we are in a good, healthy place with the Lord, that also shines forth and we can hear that in the language and in the words that people use.

Margie: 20:05

And that would be in the guard our self-care, and that self-care is not an act of selfishness. It is so that we can love others as Christ has loved us and so that we are then not not dealing with compassion fatigue right.

Kristen: 20:46

It's kind of like being able to get out of our own way, you know, being able to become such an open vessel that my personal issues can move back and the Holy Spirit just flows in and out. And when I'm taking proper care of myself that is easier to happen. Also, we are sinful beings and we touched on sin just a little bit in the previous episode. There's something really powerful that Diane Langberg wrote about in her Suffering in the Heart of God and if you wouldn't mind, I think it'd be no, go right ahead. So she opens up this book again, suffering in the Heart of God how Trauma Destroys and Christ Restores. I highly recommend it for ministry leaders. Christ Restores I highly recommend it for ministry leaders.Kristen: 21:44

She opens up the book talking about standing in a dungeon over in the Cape Coast Castle in Ghana and the tour guide says to them do you know what is above this dungeon? Our heads shook. The chapel Directly above 200 shackled men, some of them dead, others screaming, all of them sitting in filth, sat God worshipers. They sang, they read scripture, they prayed and, I suppose, took up an offering for those less fortunate. The slaves could hear the service and the worshipers could sometimes hear the slaves. She goes on to describe that. And a little bit later she says she goes on to describe that. And a little bit later she says our first call is not to places right but to a person, because the dungeon is first in us. That is what has created the dungeons out there in the world. Fool yourself, she says, into thinking you follow your savior where others have failed to do so, all the while hiding dungeons in your own souls, whether it is pride or pornography.

Kristen: 23:02

And the chapter moves on. And so we have evil in us because we're human and we live under sin right, a fallen world, and so we have to be very vigilant in being open to the Holy Spirit's correction, to repentance. And that is a part of you know, if I'm bitter, maybe it's because of all of these things happening to me. Yes, but I'm also responsible for that bitterness. So it's not just healing from these things that have happened to me, but there is a part that I need to admit. This is wrong and it is causing division or disconnection with others, causing division or disconnection with others. And so that's when that work with the Holy Spirit, becoming humble and willing to receive not only the comfort of the Holy Spirit, but the correction of the Holy Spirit comes into play.

Margie: 23:53

Yeah, and you're touching on some aspects of humility which I know. I have an author coming on in a few episodes talking about humility. What it is, what it isn't. The willingness to say I need help is an act of humility, whether you're seeking care for whatever trauma that you're toting around. For whatever trauma that you're toting around, it just is. And the other piece, that is, there is a level of self-awareness. You know, in answering questions, gee, I wonder why I do the things I do, and that's important. I mean, what would you say is maybe a first step towards improving your self-awareness?

Kristen: 24:45

Asking the Holy Spirit to show you what is the thing right now that you want me to know about myself. And the Holy spirit is so gracious, right, like uh he. Sometimes we think why did I not realize this before? Why did I not deal with this before? Why, right, we only, as humans can can handle so much. And so the Holy spirit knows exactly what we need to be aware of and when we need to be aware of it.

Margie: 25:24

How magnificent really, and you see the hand of God even in that. And then I think, for ministry leaders, when you go on that healing kind of journey, then you have another place that you can say this is what God brought to me and this is. I chose to step into what God was asking of me and the end result is that healing has taken place and then you know that you are better able to live into the things that God is asking of you, or your compassion at least grows for those who are in the middle of their healing journey as well. What final words would you like to offer to ministry leaders today?

Kristen: 26:18

Anything else you want to add. There are two things that come to mind, okay, the first is just not to be afraid of stepping into the healing journey. Many are, because it feels too time consuming. There is that fear Again what's going to happen if I do address this? There is a sense that when we clean out a wound, when we begin addressing heart wounds, things that have happened to us, it does feel painful at first, and so we can be really afraid of feeling that. The results of that How's that going to affect me? What are other people going to think? But just to trust the process and to step into it, knowing that the joy of the other side, of greater compassion, greater ability to connect, greater ability to love others, is so worth the journey and what you may have to encounter along the way. I like that.

Kristen: 27:24

The other thing that I want to leave with is just that God utterly delights in us, and he is not sitting up there with his arms crossed angrily looking at you, so disappointed or disgusted at you. You know, in a sense, that you just can never do anything right. Rather, god is the God of perfect love, and 1 Peter 4.18 says perfect love casts out fear. It is because of his perfect love, fear. It is because of his perfect love, it is because of Jesus' death, burial and resurrection that we can come to him boldly, that we can step onto that healing path and know that he is with us, holding us. Those would be the things that I want to leave, because I know it's a tough road when you're under that microscope in ministry, but it is so worth it and you will be want to offer God our very best and sometimes you know, admitting that, all right, maybe there's a few things I need to look at in my life for that to happen, and you know the willingness then for you to step onto that healing path.

Margie: 28:59

I mean it. It might feel not so great at different moments, but the end result will be what God is nudging towards. So at the end of the day it's, it's you're putting yourself on the pedestal and letting God mold and shape you as a little lump of clay, leave you with that picture from Jeremiah that God's never done with us, right, and I always think of. Well, you know, you get to a certain age, you retire or you whatever, and God's never, never done with us. So thank you very much, kristen. I so appreciate your words of encouragement here.

Margie: 29:42

Yeah, absolutely, and thanks for having me We'll have to look at some other things in the future that we could just yammer on about huh, it's been lovely.

Kristen: 29:53

It's been lovely, yeah, to have these conversations with you.

Margie: 29:55

So, thank you, Margie, thank you yeah, to have these conversations with you. So thank you, Margie, thank you, are you wondering whether your fatigue, your lack of motivation, your lack of interest is burnout maybe? I just wanted to let you know that I have a resource on the website, margiebryce dot com, that's b-r-y-c-e. Margiebryce dot com and it is a burnout questionnaire, free for you to download, and kind of self-assess and get a sense of where you're at. There are questions that not only ask about what you're going through but maybe how often you're experiencing it, and that's kind of a key to where you might be, because you have to know where you are in order to chart a course forward. And most pastors who experience pastors and ministry leaders who experience burnout rarely know that that's where they're at until they're well into it. And if you're unsure about that little statistic, so far, everybody that I've interviewed on this podcast who has experienced burnout, when I asked that kind of question, they're like, yeah, I didn't know that's where I was at. So again, go to margiebricecom it's on the homepage of the website and you can get your burnout questionnaire and kind of see where you're at.

Margie: 31:37

Hey friends, the Crabby Pastor podcast is sponsored by Bryce Art Glass and you can find that on Facebook.

Margie: 31:46

Margie: 32:20

But I will have some other ways that you can be a part of getting the word out about the importance of healthy self-care for ministry leaders. Hey, thanks for listening. Hey, thanks for listening. It is my deep desire and passion to champion issues of sustainability in ministry and for your life, so I'm here to help. I stepped back from pastoral ministry and I feel called to help ministry leaders create and cultivate sustainability in their lives so that they can go the distance with God and whatever plans that God has for you. I would love to help, I would consider it an honor, and in all things, make sure you connect to these sustainability practices you know, so that you don't become the crabby pastor.

View Details

When the calling you've devoted your heart to is stripped away, where do you turn? This episode features the courageous Kristen Humiston, who opens up about the often-concealed traumas of ministry leadership. Have you or anyone you know experienced forced termination and the trauma that it induced? Then this episode is for them, and YOU! This is part one of three conversations with Kristen where we delve deeper into trauma. that not only challenges the soul but also questions the essence of self-worth and divine connection within the sacred space of the church.The episode culminates with a powerful message for ministry leaders and anyone on the journey to recovery: emotional expression and patterned, safe relationships are the keystones to rebuilding trust and reclaiming a life of resilience and hope. Join us in this profound exploration, where we provide a beacon of light for those navigating through the darkest of times.

Support the show

🦀 🦀 🦀

Find regular support on my Facebook group by clicking HERE.Connect with me about COACHING and Workshops on self-care HERE.

TranscriptMargie: 0:01

Hey, there it's Margie Bryce, your host of the Crabby Pastor podcast, where we talk about all things sustainability, whether it's sustainability in ministry, in your personal life and we acknowledge that the church is in a transitional time, so we hit topics there too that are going to stretch your mind and the way you lead, especially how you lead yourself, so that you don't become the crabby pastor. So how do the pieces of your life fit together? Do they fit together well and things are humming along just fine, or are there some pieces that are tight or absent or just not fitting the bill? This is your invitation to join me in my glass workshop for a video series, where I am going to do a stained glass project while I talk to you about sustainability and building sustainability into your heart and into your life. So I am going to be doing my art, which is a form of self-care, and I'm going to invite you into that space with me and I'm going to chat. I'm going to chat about self-care and I'm going to show you how I create, and there's a nifty, nifty analogy Stained glass seems to be a very good metaphor for what I want to talk about, so I'd love for you to join me to do that, to opt in, I'll need you to email me at crabbypastor at gmail dot com. That's crabbypastor at gmail dot com. So you won't want to miss this. You definitely won't want to miss this. So make a plan to join me in the glass workshop.

Margie: 2:02

Hey there, Margie Bryce, host of the Crabby Pastor podcast, and we are here today. I am speaking with Kristen Humiston and we are going to talk trauma and give you some basic insights, some basic ideas of what trauma is, what trauma does. So I am really looking forward to this episode and actually we're going to do a few episodes, a bit of a mini series here, and help you to understand what is wrong with everybody. Sort of okay, because you know, you say, well, there's a few people who are traumatized and then there's some who aren't. But let me tell you, we all just came out of COVID, so that was like a mass trauma for everybody, and everybody always handles trauma differently. So there's that. Anyway, Kristen, how about you tell us what drew you into this topic?

Kristen: 3:03

Yeah, thanks for having me on today. I am a certified coach and my passion point areas have been faith, mental health and ministry leadership. And I come at that because I grew up as a pastor's kid. I became a pastor's wife before I was even out of college and then we were in ministry almost 20 years when we experienced what's called a forced termination, totally blindsided us, unexpected, overnight. You know, just called in one Saturday morning and said you no longer work here and there were no accusations, there were no reasons given. Was there any warning?

Kristen: 3:39

or anything. No warning, I mean some things. You know, there's always like shifty things and you're like huh, what's going on? Um, so, but nothing that we could put our finger on. No, no, nothing direct at all. And there had been a review, had been done recently, and everything was great on the review. You know, pats on the back on Sunday mornings you're doing a great job, pastor, and so yeah it. You know today's conversation.

Margie: 4:09

You know, I mean, I think that's a trauma right there that's making my head explode as you say this, because I'm thinking oh my goodness, can we not do better than that?

Kristen: 4:18

Yeah, yeah, well, and that's you know, that's. That's the one of the greatest reasons that I have been drawn into this work. I have the background of growing up as a pastor's kid, right, and I that lens that, until that moment in time, all I had ever lived I was almost 40 at the time and all I had ever lived was in ministry life, where church defines your identity and your existence. So you go to church on Sunday mornings, you do the midweek things, you go back on Sunday mornings, your social circles are there. How you have been shaped and developed with your gifts and things that you enjoy is so integral to church life.

Kristen: 5:01

For me it was music things, and so, yeah, all of my relationships and who I was was so woven with church life that I didn't know. I didn't know who I was like, what. What do I do now and who am I now, without, without being a pastor's wife, without going to church on Sundays, right, there's so much of our calendar and our scheduling, the way we do or don't do vacations that is embedded when you live ministry, and so to be suddenly out of that say nothing of like. Now, what do I do with God? Because I've given my whole life to pursuing serving his people, and I've just been yanked out and I'm not. What I learned very quickly is I'm not alone in that experience.

Margie: 5:56

Right and a lot of that.

Kristen: 5:57

you know yeah it's about 40%, a little bit higher, but across denominations. 40% of pastors at least will experience one time forced termination or unjust termination Sometimes it's called, and many experience more than one. So I don't have stats on what that looks like, but that's what's brought me into the topic of trauma was my own healing journey from that and then becoming really passionate, and I can see the threads beginning early as five years old. There was a moment in my healing journey where I just it was one of those. I felt like God was right in front of me and I just heard him say you are a healer, and so I thought I don't know what that means. But okay, I'm listening. Yeah.Margie: 6:48

And I think many well of the 40% that you have. You know sometimes you are working within the context of a church environment, but I think what really needs to be relearned and recaptured today are the entrepreneurial ministry leaders, who may or may not be pastoring, but they might be out and about in the marketplace and when you think about this you know it's pretty exciting stuff. It's not that you don't want to come under submission to somebody else. It's not that you don't want to come under submission to somebody else, it's not that you don't want to whatever, but sometimes God has some different ideas for what you're going to do and what you're going to be about and where you're going to serve and how you're going to serve. And that's part of why I advocate for a healthy self-care, so that you slow down long enough that you can hear and step into what God has for you.

Margie: 7:48

I'm thinking this is going to be the wave for many, as we go along here and we can sit back and cry all we want and it's sad. It's sad about you know the church and the challenges right now. If you are serving in pastoral ministries, it is challenging, but at the same time you know what is God doing? Because God's not sleeping. To the best of my knowledge, god is not sleeping, and I think those who follow need to listen closely. Well, let's go back to trauma. You know, as you outlined your own personal trauma, and you know that's usually what drives us into doing what we do. I'm doing banging the drum about self-care because what I forgot to do, that and it just is not a fun thing. And so talk to us then about how you would define trauma.Kristen: 8:47

Yeah, trauma is a common buzzword out there right now. It's being thrown around Every place wants to become trauma informed, which is great. It's a piece of the puzzle, and then we need to become trauma responsive, and so it's really important to understand what this is. Lots of different definitions. This is kind of a conglomeration of various places. My personal definition it is the lingering impact in the body, mind and spirit from any real or perceived danger, like intense, unexpected event or ongoing situation or relationship that overwhelms an individual's nervous system so it pushes them outside of their ability to cope Right. And there's some characteristic features which are fear, helplessness, lack of voice or choice and lack of safety and security. One of the trauma people out there, Gabor Mate. He also says trauma is not only what happens to us, but what doesn't happen to us and should.

Margie: 9:57

Okay, so we see this lingering effect. I mean, how do you know? So we see this lingering effect. I mean, how do you know? Ooh, I've been traumatized Because there's stuff happens down here in life. You know, how do you distinguish between? You know just the normal bundlings of people and trauma? Yeah, sure.

Kristen: 10:18

Well, I'm under the belief that we all have been traumatized in some place, way, shape or form. What Gabor Monte is referring to, there is kind of this piece of neglect, and it can be emotional neglect, so it can be from a child who didn't have parents that for whatever reason, it's not always intended, but just lacked connection and so that impacts their relationships for the rest of their life. But we often see it If we think about like the traumatized person you're going to see hypervigilance, always thinking that the shoe is going to drop, like what's next, a need to, it's kind of like perceive and put out all these feelers to protect. So it's high anxiety, maybe avoidance. So avoiding places, people, conversations it will look like some isolation and withdrawal.

Kristen: 11:17

Nightmares, flashbacks A lot of those are typical symptoms. It can be physical symptoms. It's going to manifest if it's not healed. It's going to manifest in GI issues, headaches. Our bodies really do keep the score and so there's there's lots of ways and lots of scientific research out there that we have today that demonstrate how trauma impacts the body. So a lot of times we're experiencing those impacts, but we don't necessarily connect it to something that may be overwhelmed us at some point in life.

Margie: 11:57

And what kind of what I've come to understand is that and you can correct me, is that and you can correct me? You know feel free or add in, subtract or whatever that when you encounter a trauma, it messes with the storage system in your brain and your body doesn't store it correctly. And if you pursue some avenues of healing, you have the opportunity to help the storage function better so that then at the end of the day, you're less, as they say, triggered by something. You know, something sets you off and you don't know why. If you can get to the place where healing occurs sufficiently so that you're a little less reactive, or maybe you come to the place where healing occurs sufficiently so that you're a little less reactive, or maybe you come to a place where you're a little more self-aware about of that.

Kristen: 12:56

Yeah, absolutely so. I use brain spotting in my coaching and I'm in grad school, finishing up to become a trauma therapist. So a simplified version is to think about an event happening and our brain is made. Our brain and body is made so that we should be able to process that we should. You know we don't have a lot of.

Kristen: 13:20

There is trauma in the in history, but part of what makes trauma difficult now is we don't have a lot of movement going on. We don't have a lot of being able to physically move through and and to really address. So, like when we study people who have experienced, let's say, an entrapment where they are physically trapped, those that can do something to fix their situation usually are less traumatized six months down the road, as opposed to those who maybe have to stand by and watch. And there's I'm thinking of a particular incident which I really don't want to state just because of people who are listening. I don't want to trigger, but if you've had to like, let's say, dig your way out of being trapped, you have had a part of the solution of being able to do something, and so that in and of itself helps to process the trauma Because you had some power.

Kristen: 14:20

You had some choice. So if we go back to that definition of what is traumatic, it's when we are helpless, when we don't have any choice. And so sometimes those like family members that may be watching someone experience trauma and they absolutely cannot do anything, they become traumatized because, again, they are helpless, they can't move through it, they can't offer a solution. And we see this. You made a really key point in healing from trauma, which is slowing down long enough to even hear and feel. And most of us in our Western modern world, we are just go, go, go, go, go, go go. Everything's flying at us and our brains don't even have time to they just they don't have any time to process anything, we just blow through is what we do and here in the United States and I know like for me.

Margie: 15:14

I think I've shared this on the podcast before, I think. Anyway, I was maybe four and I was hospitalized and I was sick and I think they had given me something to a sedative sort of and my parents were standing over me talking and I could hear them and they were debating about my younger sisters who were at home and what they should do and at the end of the day they said, well, she's sleeping, we should just leave. But I was four, I was scared and I couldn't say anything because of whatever it was that they had given me prevented me from saying. I couldn't say anything but inside in my little head I was hollering, but I couldn't holler out loud. So you know, you take that that would be in the category of abandonment and I didn't ever think it was an issue because, you know, nobody did anything intentional, malicious or whatever.

Margie: 16:22

And I think quite a few years ago I recounted that to somebody who had some training and they said abandonment. And I was like what? I had no idea that something like that could resonate through your life. And here I am, you know years old, because you know it's a state secret how old I am, you know I'd have to kill you. But you know, and I went through a healing process In that case EMDR and I can't tell you what that stands for. Probably you can, but I went through that process and I was surprised at the level of emotion that unpacked itself and came out, because you know you're like so that would be a case where you couldn't do anything to fix your own.Kristen: 17:10

You couldn't do anything and, like you said, you couldn't use your voice so you couldn't communicate anything to let your parents know, hey, I'm scared, like stay here with me, right? You couldn't ask and make your request and so they just assumed you were sleeping and you were fine. There's no ill intent there and oftentimes that's that's what we think of is when someone's traumatized, that there has to have had been something malicious or ill intent done and that's just not the case. A lot of times there is trauma that's happening completely not intended at all.

Kristen: 17:45

And again, like we just think of basic phone use right now, that disconnection between parents and children, because parents are just sitting on their floor, sorry, on their phones, never looking at their children in the eyes. And we need that eye gaze with one another. That's one of the God created things that to hold the baby and gaze in their eyes. This is essential for us building foundational blocks of trust, of connection and yeah, and so trauma. It impacts the way that we view ourselves, the way that we view the world, if it's a good world or a bad world, the way we view others and the way we view god, and there's lots of different ways that that can manifest itself. We've talked about some that are kind of more of the ptsd type symptoms, right, but we see these symptoms reverberate in relationships. Again, the way that we connect, even the way that we connect to God and our relationship with God, is impacted by those experiences.

Margie: 18:49

So sure and that you know. That is, you know, like I wonder why I think this way. You know I, and I think a lot of this is well. First, before I lose this thought, you know, two people can have encountered this very same trauma and deal with it very differently. I was always said I was oversensitive anyway. So I don't know, maybe I am compared to I don't know what, but but anyhow, you know, people can go through a similar experience in one person, it just doesn't reverberate in their lives the way it does with some others, and it's not. That's not a good or a bad, it just, it just is the way it is.

Kristen: 19:32

Yeah, yeah, and we know that that is related to history of trauma. It's related to attachments. So how many secure attachment relationships that they have with, initially a loving caregiver and then loving relationships around them, the way that we have either built or not built on a resiliency factor. So, just like you're saying, yeah, we can experience. I have a good friend of mine. We both were in the same car accident when we were 17, a pretty horrendous accident and she walked away completely a different experience of that than I did and I struggled to drive, I struggled with a lot of things coming off of that and she just, you know, was kind of bounced back pretty easily. And when I look and compare what I would say our trauma histories are, they're vastly different, vastly different. And so, and we just know that that's across the board what we see in trauma.

Kristen: 20:34

So, and you related to like EMDR brain spotting trauma.

Kristen: 20:40

So, and you related to like EMDR brain spotting, what they do is they go into that traumatic memory.

Kristen: 20:42

They just really allow you don't have to restate the memory because that can re traumatize someone, but opens up the processing and allows that instead of, um, if we think of, like, maybe two different, two different circles In one circle is like how your brain is when the traumatic event or ongoing again, like in cases of abuse, abusive relationships. This is like an ongoing traumatization and what happens is that trauma kind of bounces around in your brain. It's not able to correctly process because your system is overwhelmed. And EMDR brain spotting opens up the ability to process that and then file it away in the correct place which, when we think back to, I'm thinking you know, 200, 300, 400 years ago that's what was happening, because people were using their bodies, they were coming up with their own solutions, they were going through traumatic things but they were able to do something about it. Their processing was more accessible and then it was able to be stored without the emotional, intense emotional responses happening. So that's what EMDR enables you to do.

Margie: 21:55

Yeah, Cause I think back. I think back in the church scenario and I'm sure I've shared this before here somewhere along the line, but about a gentleman, a senior citizen. That's the one thing that used to get to me, you know, when I was pastoring, is if it was an older gentleman and he cried, that just really would get to me. But there would be this one gentleman would always go to the altar for any thing and he would just be up there crying and he would say I can't get the victory, I can't get the victory, no, okay. Well, I was mid-20s when I came to Christ, so I kind of had to have somebody translate what that meant Exactly. And I spoke to somebody and said what, what does he mean? What is going on there? And he was on the beaches of Normandy as a team and and he just, you know, I feel so bad. It's like, you know, as, because we're talking about really, basically, what is wrong.

Margie: 22:53

Congregation, or people that you know, love, care about, are struggling with something that they don't even know how to deal with. You know, I should be able to pray through it. Just pray, give it to Jesus, and it's good, and I don't mean to say that that's not helpful, healthy or a good idea. I'm not saying that that's not the case, but when there are ongoing instances that just seem not to be able to be resolved, it's okay to then look at.

Margie: 23:45

You know some advances that we have today in neuroscience. It's pretty amazing how you know your brain makes ruts because you keep going up and down the same path. But maybe you need to go on a different direction, a different path, and you actually can reroute your brain by doing some things differently. And it's pretty, pretty fascinating stuff actually. And I think EMDR is brain spotting. I'm not sure if they're exactly the same, but these are potential. I mean, it's almost like an antibiotic really that comes in and disrupts. You know an antibiotic either works. You know you're either going to starve the little microbe or the little thing making you sick, or you stop it from being able to reproduce. That's how antibiotics work. So this is almost like an antibiotic for your neurology, for your brain.

Kristen: 24:37

Yeah, and there are several ways of healing. And I even think about in scripture what did David do? Other people as well use lament Like lament is a gift and that's the expressing. It's actually complaint to god. How long? How long are you gonna hide your face from me? Right, the complaint is actually if I put it into a sentence, I feel like you're hiding you. You know you've left. That's the complaint. And then to express the emotions my eyes waste away with grief.

Kristen: 25:17

Psalm 6, 6 says this language that he is able to use to express the emotion so important. Where in our Western culture we suppress emotion and we've been told it's not right, it's not good. You know, david expresses anger in the Psalms and we've been told anger is off limits, that we can't be angry as Christians. That's just false. We see it all throughout scripture where anger is a right response to an in or unjust action. We should be angry about some things. Then what do we do with that anger? Right, but we need to express it. So we have to. We have to heal, sorry, we have to feel to heal. Somatic work, movement with the body is a great way to heal. And then, like we were talking about before, we hopped on and started recording. Today, healing begins with this consistent, repeated, patterned connection. It has to be consistent, repeated pattern. I should say safe connection. So say more about that.

Margie: 26:31

Yeah.

Kristen: 26:32

So this is part of in therapy we talk about this being part of the therapeutic alliance, a reason why we have people come in, you know, every week or every other week for one hour. What's happening? Consistent, repeated, patterned safe connection. They're relearning how to build trust. This is the basic blocks. From when you're a baby, you should be having consistent, repeated, patterned safe connection, and so when that's disrupted, it makes the nervous system go wait, can I trust you? What's going on on here? Are my needs going to be met? And it brings this sense of insecurity to the nervous system. So to heal that we need we need that consistent, repeated, pattern safe connection. And when we think about that, like sometimes church leaders or faith leaders will think, well, well, you just need to be in church every Sunday, that's good, it is good. Okay, what? What safe connection is happening there? Like you've got the consistent, repeated and maybe pattern, but is there a safe connection happening?

Kristen: 27:44

When they're coming there, I'll often say, like for myself, for me moving through healing, and what I recommend to my clients is to build something in. That has to be consistent, so maybe it's. It doesn't need to cost money, so maybe it's. You know, you have one friend, one friend that you could call and just say, hey, can we meet every Tuesday, 8, 8 AM, or you know whatever works for your schedule. Maybe it's once a month and you decide I can do something consistent once a month and it's repeated and it's patterned and it's a safe connection so we can actually put this in our own lives to begin to heal, especially trust, issues. Right, how do I learn to trust again? It's one of the most common questions I get, whether it's been church trauma or it's abusive relationship. How do I learn how to trust again? You need that consistent, repeated, patterned, safe connection and I am very aware that I've said it a lot of times.

Margie: 28:51

Oh, that's fine, no, that's fine.

Kristen: 28:54

The one thing to take away from this today. That's what heals consistent, repeated, patterned, safe connection.

Margie: 29:01

Yes, and that that is.

Margie: 29:03

You know, one avenue for and I advocate for this as a part of your self-care is to don't journey alone. Everyone needs a safe place where they can be totally honest, and that is one facet, whether you work with a spiritual director, you have a friend or you have a coach or you have something for ministry leaders, for sure. But then also ask ministry leaders and we need to think through how healing of an environment we are creating in our congregations and whether this pattern is being nurtured and upheld within those. So we are going to stop here, though, for today and leave it here, and we're getting our primer here on trauma and what healing looks like, and then we're going to toddle along into congregational life, pastoral life, and we will expand.

Margie: 30:05

And I will put Kristen's her website in the show notes, for sure you can connect with her and we might even put some resources in there so that you can kind of dig in, because you know, as ministry leaders, we do look at our people and go what is wrong with them? And then, of course, you know we always have to ask and what is wrong with us as a level of growth for us, as a level of growth for us as a level of building our self-awareness, which is always a helpful tool. So, kristen, thank you so much for your insight. We appreciate this.

Kristen: 30:41

Thank you for having me.

Margie: 30:44

Are you wondering whether your fatigue, your lack of motivation, your lack of interest is burnout maybe? I just wanted to let you know that I have a resource on the website, margiebricecom, that's B-R-Y-C-E, margiebryce dot com, MargieBryce dot com, and it is a burnout questionnaire, free for you to download, and kind of self-assess and get a sense of where you're at. There are questions that not only ask about what you're going through but maybe how often you're experiencing it and that's kind of a key to where you might be, because you have to know where you are in order to chart a course forward. And most pastors who experience pastors and ministry leaders who experience burnout rarely know that that's where they're at until they're well into it. And if you're unsure about that little statistic, so far, everybody that I've interviewed on this podcast who has experienced burnout, when I asked that kind of question, they're like, yeah, I didn't know, that's where I was at. So again, go to margiebricecom it on the home page of the website and you can get your burnout questionnaire and kind of see where you're at.

Margie: 32:22

Hey friends, the Crabby Pastor podcast is sponsored by Bryce Art Glass and you can find that on Facebook.

Margie: 32:31

I make stained glass as part of my self-care and also by Bryce Coaching, where I coach ministry leaders and business leaders, and so the funds that I generate from coaching and from making stained glass is what is supporting this podcast and I will have opportunities for you to be a part of sponsoring me and, as always, you can do the buy me a cup of coffee thing in the show notes. But I will have some other ways that you can be a part of getting the word out about the importance of healthy self-care for ministry leaders. Hey, thanks for listening. It is my deep desire and passion to champion issues of sustainability in ministry and for your life, so I'm here to help. I stepped back from pastoral ministry and I feel called to help ministry leaders create and cultivate sustainability in their lives so that they can go the distance with God and whatever plans that God has for you. I would love to help, I would consider it an honor and, in all things, make sure you connect to these sustainability practices you know, so that you don't become the crabby pastor.

View Details

Imagine stepping into a sanctuary that's as safe and nurturing as it is spiritually enriching – this is the future we're fashioning today on the Crabby Pastor podcast. I'm Margie Bryce, and alongside former private investigator Lori Morrison, we're ripping off the veil on the urgent need for secure church environments. Through Lori's unique lens, we grasp the tangible steps we can take to transform our worship spaces into bastions of safety that guard not only our physical well-being but also our emotional and spiritual lives. Together, we address the erosion of trust in religious institutions and prescribe actionable strategies to help churches rise as sanctuaries for seekers and believers alike.Our conversation covers a lot of ground including the rise of sex trafficking preying on our youth. We also shed light on the disturbing fact that sex offenders often target religious communities due to their forgiving nature, as highlighted by psychologist Dr. Anna Salter's research. Our discussion is an essential guide to redefining love and freedom in a manner that shields our fledgling population.Remember: burnout is an issue! Get your burnout questionnaire by going to my website!Connections to Lori:https://www.facebook.com/theUnlovelyTruth

https://www.instagram.com/theunlovelytruthpodcast/

https://www.linkedin.com/in/theunlovelytruth/

Support the show

🦀 🦀 🦀

Find regular support on my Facebook group by clicking HERE.Connect with me about COACHING and Workshops on self-care HERE.

TranscriptMargie: 0:01

Hey, there it's Margie Bryce, your host of the Crabby Pastor podcast, where we talk about all things sustainability, whether it's sustainability in ministry, or in your personal life and we acknowledge that the church is in a transitional time, so we hit topics there too that are going to stretch your mind and the way you lead, especially how you lead yourself, so that you don't become the crabby pastor. So how do the pieces of your life fit together? Do they fit together well and things are humming along just fine, or are there some pieces that are tight or absent or just not fitting the bill? This is your invitation to join me in my glass workshop for a video series, where I am going to do a stained glass project while I talk to you about sustainability and building sustainability into your heart and into your life. So I am going to be doing my art, which is a form of self-care, and I'm going to invite you into that space with me and I'm going to chat. I'm going to chat about self-care and I'm going to show you how I create, and there's a nifty, nifty analogy Stained glass seems to be a very good metaphor for what I want to talk about, so I'd love for you to join me to do that. To opt in, I'll need you to email me at crabbypastor at gmail dot com. That's crabbypastor at gmail dot com. So you won't want to miss this. You definitely won't want to miss this. So make a plan to join me in the glass workshop.

Margie: 2:03

And it's time for another episode of the Crabby Pastor podcast, and I have a guest here today. We're going to take a bit of a different tact self-care from the standpoint of making our environments in our churches especially safe. Now, you're probably going to initially think you know security, people in the parking lot and all that kind of stuff, but we're going to talk about the ethos, the environment in your church and how to make that be a little safer. And I'm here today with Lori Morrison, who has a very interesting background as a private investigator and an author, and she's done a lot of interesting things. And I know you're going to find this very helpful conversation because we're going to talk about steps to make your church be a true sanctuary. So, lori, I'm going to toss this to you and ask you to introduce yourself to us.

Lori: 3:08

Oh, thank you, Margie. I'm happy to do that. Like you said, I have a background as a private investigator. I did recently retire my license to really focus more on consulting with churches on how to do just what you described Make your church safer, not just physically but emotionally and spiritually, for your congregants, your staff, your volunteers and really your community. Because when the community trusts us to hold them safe, then we are really earning the right to share the gospel with them.

Margie: 3:46

Hmm, yeah, and that is certainly a strong motivating factor for us. So, yeah, we you know, because I don't know where this stands. I think you were quoting something to me earlier in our pre-interview chat that there are studies that say we aren't so trustworthy. Is that correct?

Lori: 4:10

Unfortunately. Yes, I've seen it from different outlets, but Barna has said that I believe it's hovering right around. A third of people say that they do not have a high degree of trust in their pastor in the church, and that's people within the church. I've also seen things from Pew Research that says about 49% of people say that they really believe that our ability to be an influence in our communities is dropping and that they see that as a bad thing, which is good. The fact that we're not doing as well as we should be can be an impetus for us to say okay, where do we need to make some tweaks? Right, right.

Margie: 5:00

And some of the tweaks can be ascribed to someone in leadership who can help to promote and emphasize ways that we can offer, as you say, a true sanctuary, and we can be a true sanctuary for ourselves, our staff and, ultimately, for those who don't know Jesus quite yet. So can you give us kind of a working definition or paint a picture, whichever you prefer, whichever works best for you, of true sanctuary?

Lori: 5:40

For me, a true sanctuary is the place you go when you don't know where else to go.

Lori: 5:45

For me a true sanctuary is the place you go when you don't know where else to go. It's that place where you know that you will be safe. You will be steps to make sure we are being that for people and, of course, as a woman, I think I have a little bit different perspective. You know, most of my colleagues in this space are men. A lot of times they're ex-law enforcement, a former military, and so they are very honed in on physical safety. If we have some sort of medical disaster, big weather event, and you do need to be prepared for those types of situations as well. But I was doing a little noodling around the internet the other day and the big thing is the active shooter training. And while we do need to be prepared, we do need to have a plan, because the middle of a crisis is not the time to figure out your plan. You need to have one.

Lori: 6:56

But when you look at the statistics and I got these from, not in our churchcom In 2022, there were four fatal church shootings in the US. In 2021 and 2020, there were zero. So, yes, it does happen, yes, we need to be ready, but statistically speaking, there are so many other areas that we need to devote resources, time, money to, because they're so much more likely to happen you know if you have women in your church which I'm assuming most of the churches out there do you probably have someone who is experiencing or has experienced domestic violence, and how are you ministering to her?Lori: 7:39

how are you communicating that that is a safe place for her to maybe disclose? And a super, super easy way you can do that is just in your women's restrooms. Put up a poster, and just one that you've made that has resources for her phone number. She can call local places that she can go if you have a local shelter. And the reason I say put it up in the women's restroom. That might be the only place she really gets to be by herself. If you just put it up in the hallway, she's going to avoid it like the plague because she doesn't want her abuser to see her looking at it

.Margie: 8:17

Right right, right. So you're talking about some very practical steps instead of just being aspirational. That, oh, that's what we want to be. We want to have some practical steps and ways of helping to create emotional safe space. And, by the way, I just want to mention, you know, you talked about the zero fatalities from shooters, fatalities from shooters and then there were four fatalities, just so we know, because this is how some things get portrayed to us. Somebody could come along and say, well, there's a 400% increase in active shooters. You know what I'm saying. You got to really be on your toes when you say somebody's doubled something.

Lori: 9:04

Maybe they only had one and now they have two, you know, and definitely I want to make sure that people understand I'm not saying to abandon preparation for those right. Just because it's not very likely to happen. I mean, it's not very likely that my house will burn down, but I still have fire insurance because if something does happen, the effect would be catastrophic. So we do have to be ready for physical violence in the churches because, even though it's remote, those consequences would be catastrophic if they happened.

Margie: 9:39

Absolutely, absolutely and absolutely trauma-filled, but what we were going to talk about today, though, is that emotional safe space, and I'm glad you brought up women's perspective of what that means, because we do see things differently. I mean, it is different to be the people that are generally not as physically strong. I might have a couple of friends that could take down a guy, but not too many on the whole, and so we are that, and how can we feel safe? And you provided me with some steps, actually, and maybe you could walk through a few of the ones that you think are most important to help us cultivate and nurture that kind of a safe space.

Lori: 10:31

Who would cross train your greeters with your safety people, because the more eyes you have being situationally aware, you know, just looking around do you know what to look for if someone is being maybe hyper controlled, because a lot of times we think of abuse as being a physical assault, a sexual assault, but sometimes people are just controlled to the point where their lives are not their own anymore, and we see that also in our youth groups. So we have to make sure that young women understand someone that is trying to, you know, separate you from time with your friends, distance you from family members, constantly check your phone calling you to see where you are, who you're with, constantly check your phone calling you to see where you are who you're with. That is not love and our young people don't always understand that because of the way the media, the entertainment media, portrays you know, quote unquote, love A lot of what you see in movies I would call stalking not love.

Margie: 11:42

Yeah, that's a lot of theory. That's you know.

Lori: 11:46

But, you know, think back to when you and I would have been like youth group age. One of the big popular songs was by the police. Every Breath you Take, you know, think about some of those lyrics. Every move you make, I'll be watching you. That's not love, that's a crime.

Lori: 12:05

So just educating our young people about things like that and people are also always shocked when I tell them that one of the fastest growing ways that girls usually are recruited into sex trafficking is through other girls, their age we have this thought in our mind that there's this beat up, rusted, windowless van that's trolling around and snatching people off of street corners and while that may happen again, statistically that's not really the norm.

Lori: 12:38

You've got these men that are usually trafficking multiple women and girls and they're sending those women and girls out to bring other women and girls in.

Lori: 12:53

And so it starts with you know, oh and this is an actual, true story that I featured on my podcast A young girl who met somebody at school, and this girl really spoke about how her lifestyle was freedom my parents don't chase after me all the time, I don't have all these rules and, of course, to someone who's more rule bound, that sounds just wonderful. And this young girl she'd been brought up in church and loved going to church, but she's hearing this competing narrative of what freedom really means. And then it's well, here, you need to meet this guy, I know. Then he becomes her boyfriend, she thinks that she's found the love of her life and then suddenly he says hey, we really need some money so we can run away together. I know how we can make some. You need to go do this for me. People need to understand that progression. Nobody wakes up and says, wow, I really think that I want to be a sex worker today.

Margie: 14:03

No, no, they generally don't, but what you're talking about, then, too, is about keeping our women safe, and especially the youngest ones that may. Maybe they've grown up in church and they're potentially more trusting and maybe a little less savvy about the way things really work.

Lori: 14:30

Yes, a psychologist named Anna Salter. Dr Anna Salter did a study. She went into prisons and spoke to men who were in there for varying types of sex offenses, and one of the questions she asked them was if they had a specific type of victim that they favored. And they said, oh yeah, religious people, church people, which shocked her a little bit. I see that it shocks you a little bit too.

Margie: 14:57

Yeah, oh geez little bit. I see that it shocks you a little bit too.

Lori: 14:59

Yeah, oh geez. She said well, why. And I said well, they typically are quite naive and so it's much easier to victimize them and if they do sort of catch on to what I'm doing, all they want to do is forgive me. So, yeah, that level of naivete, not just among the young people but among the adults who are shepherding the young people, that we really need to confront that and educate ourselves. And I know people say you know, we're supposed to think on things that are lovely and wonderful and pure and true. And yes, under the best circumstances we're supposed to. But if we're shepherding our flock, if we're protecting those under our care against predators that are out there, I think we need to revisit the story of Moses. And I want to say this was in Numbers. Email me if you're out there and you know that I'm wrong, correct me.

Lori: 16:02

But the people had been as they had been, rebellious over and over, and the cycle kept repeating itself. And God sent as a judgment on them poisonous serpents. People were being bitten, people were dying, and Moses interceded, like he always did. And so God said fashion a serpent I believe it was brass raise it up on a pole and when people look upon it, they will be healed. So God could have said you know, make a butterfly, make a unicorn, make something very pretty for everybody to look at. But he didn't. We have to look at what's killing us in order to be healed from it.

Margie: 16:47

That's yeah, and I think we have a better potential for learning these things and becoming a little more savvy than, say, back in the day. You know back. You know, when I was in my 20s or so, people didn't talk about cycles of abuse and what that looks like, you know. I even had a pastor say to a young woman you know, go back to your abusive marriage. This is probably just Satan's last ditch effort to, you know, to undermine your marriage. And, and what you know today about cycles of abuse is that they always get worse. Episodes get worse and worse and worse. They don't just suddenly get better unless there is a very serious intervention. That happens. So you know. Then the question is how can we keep our women safe and how can we become more knowledgeable and more savvy? Because you were talking about the greeters, you know, have your greeters cross-trained with the safety people? You know, how would a greeter recognize or suspect that there's an overly controlling situation going on?

Lori: 18:05

That's a great, great question and it's not always super black and white. So sometimes you have to observe. Over time, you know, do you have a couple that comes in and when you try to maybe speak to the woman, engage her in conversation, he always steps in, has to be there, has to be a part of it, or pulls her away. He doesn't want her talking to people. I know one time I was in a church service and a few rows up a man had his arm around his wife, girlfriend, I don't know what she was, I didn't recognize them had his arm around her but it wasn't in a loving way, he wasn't, you know, kind of rubbing his thumb on her shoulder Like you might do. He was rubbing the side of her face as he pulled her toward him, just very awkward. And so just being aware of things like that and you also have to be very, very careful about how you would approach something like that you certainly don't want to walk up to this woman and say, do you feel safe? She's going to fly into a panic and worry. Did my partner hear that? Why is this woman doing this?

Lori: 19:15

Whether it's being spoken from the pulpit, in small groups, posters on the walls, cultivating that idea that this is a safe place for any type of victim. Usually it is women if it's children, young people if it's a man, a young man, whoever it might be that this is a place that you can disclose things, they will not be shared unless there's a legal obligation. If you're a mandated reporter, especially when we're talking about minors, don't handle those things in-house. You're not investigators. You're not triers of fact. You need to call the authorities when that happens, just letting people know. You'll be listened to, you'll be encouraged you'll be supported.

Margie: 20:07

But if you call the authorities, I'm putting on my newspaper reporter hat for a minute from years ago. If you call the authorities and they write a report, is that does that not come under freedom of information jurisdiction? And a reporter on the police beat could find and the church is named. And I'm just playing devil's advocate.

Lori: 20:27

I guess, right, no, I understand and that you have to weigh, that you do want to protect the church, but the church exists for people. And so I think you just have to weigh that, and mostly I'm speaking about mandated reporters.

Lori: 20:45

You know, if a minor comes to you and says so-and-so did such and such, to me it's not the church's job to then try to discern if that is in fact true, and that's what a lot of churches want to do. We don't want to hurt this person's reputation or whatever. Checking your jurisdiction If you're a mandated reporter, you're obligated to tell authorities come what may and honestly, even if you're not legally obligated, I think we're morally obligated. Let people who have the experience in looking into these types of situations let them do it. I know people get really hung up on oh well, it's a false report. I'm going to tell you those are rare. I've seen several studies and most peg false reporting at about two to 4%. Several studies and most peg false reporting at about two to four percent. Most people agree that it's closer to the two. So yes, it does happen.

Margie: 21:50

I'm not going to say it doesn't, but it is exceedingly rare so you're saying, don't have the church sit back and assess and analyze and try to figure out whether it's true or not. What would be their next step would be to go to the authorities. If there's a minor involved, then pastors, leaders, are required by law to go to authorities and let that play out as it does. But meanwhile you know you worry about the church and the how they're. You know how much confidence a community would have in a church and I guess that will be up to the leaders to say look, we're just not tolerating this kind of behavior here and if we look at recent history, how has covering things up gone for churches?

Lori: 22:41

It has not gone well. Look at the Catholic church, look at the Southern Baptist convention. You know it's like Watergate the coverup is always worse. So I think your community is going to have a lot more faith in you if they see you stepping up to handle something in a sensitive yet authoritative manner.Margie: 23:05

Okay, to protect and make it be a safe environment

.Lori: 23:13

Exactly, and I talked to someone just a few weeks ago that had a situation in their church. Talked to someone just a few weeks ago that had a situation in their church. Unfortunately, the perpetrator was the son of an elder or a deacon I can't remember how their board worked. One thing you've got to do is put that elder or deacon or leader however you name your people, that elder or deacon or leader however you name your people put them on just kind of a leave. I'm not saying you have to kick them out of their leadership position, but when you try to explain to people, oh, anytime we're talking about this, they step out of the meeting. Maybe that's exactly what you're doing. That's not going to be believed, it's just not.

Lori: 23:59

So, you need to have that person not serving in that capacity for a time and again over communicate. Just say this is out of an abundance of caution, to protect them, to protect this person that's been accused, to protect the victims and to protect the church. Okay, I think, if people understand why you're doing certain things, that really it just fosters a sense of trust as opposed to we're going to handle this and we'll let you know how it all turns out, and then you never let anybody know anything, which is typically things get handled yeah, yeah, that is because they feel like if they don't talk about it anymore, it evaporates, it goes away, or right, but you're actually doing the exact opposite of what you think you're doing.

Lori: 24:54

you're teaching people you cannot be trusted. I mean, is this seems like a little bit of a side note, but look at the entire circus around this poor princess Kate. When people are not given information, they start making things up, and then she was forced to talk about things she might not have been ready to talk about. And so you just I mean, obviously there can be privacy concerns. You can't tell everybody everything, but as much as you can foster that sense of we are looking into this, here's what we can tell you. We will be telling you more as it as it becomes available. If you have questions, please reach out to us. We may not be able to answer all of them, but we will do what we can. When people feel like they can't ask questions, trust is completely eroded.

Margie: 25:52

Right, right. And on the other flip side of that, then if there is an issue with a staff person and it is a personnel related matter, the doors do kind of close in a different way and you can tell people that.

Lori: 26:08

This is why I can't tell you.

Margie: 26:09

Yeah.

Lori: 26:11

Because that will make sense to people. It's when they feel like they don't Don't have any idea at all of what's going on that you really are not building a community that fosters sanctuary.

Margie: 26:29

Do you have any other practical things that leaders can institute to help grow and nurture this sanctuary? Safe sanctuary?

Lori: 26:43

I think, just being very mindful of how we say things. I was at a church years ago and they were talking about sexual purity. That's fine. The Bible teaches that they focused exclusively on women who had not been sexually pure. They didn't really mention men. So again, you're. You're setting up an inequality, you're setting up a. You are the ones that are doing this, not us. And eventually he was trying to make the point that we're trying to fill a void and we're filling it in an unhealthy way, that that God has not designed us for. But the words he chose were we're getting something out of it. You know, like a prostitute gets money oh and I told my husband.

Lori: 27:34

I said I will not embarrass you by stomping loudly out of the sanctuary, as I really want to in this moment I said but I'm never coming here again.

Lori: 27:44

We did and it it could have been handled so differently. He could have made the same point he was trying to make and it could have been building each other up. You know, let's hold each other accountable because the standards God sets for us are for our good, and I think we do a real disservice to our youth in that same area when we don't teach purity culture right, because a lot of times it's. You know, girls don't walk this way, don't dress this way, don't go to these places. We very rarely talk about how guys should be honoring the girls around them. They should be protecting them.

Margie: 28:34

That doesn't get in the curriculum very often they should be seeing them as created in God's image, exactly.L

ori: 28:44

So don't say that joke in front of her.

Margie: 28:46

And if you can't say it in front of her, you shouldn't be saying it to your friends either.

Lori: 28:50

But we also talk about this culture in a way that the girls have to be held responsible because the guys just can't help themselves. And that's a horrific message to send our young men. We're telling them you have no agency here. If she doesn't follow the rules, then whatever happens it's her fault. So we're not going to hold you accountable. But then we also teach them that if you're indwelt by the holy spirit, you should be displaying the fruit of the spirit in your life love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, gentleness, faithfulness. And what's that last one? Self-control, self-control. And we've just taught them that when it comes to sex, they don't have any.

Margie: 29:39

That is very interesting and a hotly debated kind of topic as well in the church culture right now. But it's very interesting to listen to all this and you know, as I crawl up into the balcony here and, you know, think about big picture wise, of what we've talked about. Sometimes church culture kind of undermines itself when it comes to emotional safety and it's not out of a sense of they're clueless, I think, it's just it hasn't been well thought through. And I know sometimes you need to take the trek to a PR department. You know, and I used to. I used to work in healthcare and you know.

Margie: 30:24

So we wrote things like negative patient outcome instead of dead. You know, but sometimes you really have to stop and think about how you're saying, what you're saying and the impact. You know broadly who's your audience, you know and what is your audience. And I think pastors are taught that when we preach we're taught how to exegete the congregations. We're well familiar with that kind of terminology. So this has been really great, really good stuff to kind of think about and think through how well our churches are being that safe sanctuary from an emotional perspective. So how well are we teaching that?

Lori: 31:12

And I love the church. I got to say that it sounds like I've just been constantly dogging on it, but you know, we are supposed to be reflecting the light of Jesus and so we. That's a. That's a high, high standard to be more intentional, because if people don't feel safe with us, are they going to trust us? When we say you can have your entire eternity safe with Jesus, you might not be too terribly safe here with us, that's just, that's a conflicting message. So you know, out of the fact that I love the church, I want to challenge her that we can take what we're doing and just make some common sense tweaks.

Lori: 32:10

You know, we don't have to blow everything up and start over, but we can be so much more effective in spreading the gospel when people realize, yes, I can trust them.

Margie: 32:26

Well, thank you very much for everything that you have set out for us to kind of chew on, to think through and and all of that. I really appreciate what you have to offer here and we're going to put information about you and your books and everything in our show notes so people can connect if they so desire to think through some more ways that you know we can offer that very safe sanctuary. So thank you very much, lori, for sharing with us today.

Lori: 32:59

Oh, it's been an honor. I've really enjoyed chatting with you.

Margie: 33:05

Are you wondering whether your fatigue, your lack of motivation, your lack of interest is burnout maybe? I just wanted to let you know that I have a resource on the website, margie bryce dot com that's B-R-Y-C-E Margie Bryce dot com and it is a burnout questionnaire, free for you to download, and kind of self-assess and get a sense of where you're at. There are questions that not only ask about what you're going through but maybe how often you're experiencing it and that's kind of a key to where you might be, because you have to know where you are in order to chart a course forward. And most pastors who experience pastors and ministry leaders who experience burnout rarely know that that's where they're at until they're well into it. And if you're unsure about that little statistic, so far, everybody that I've interviewed on this podcast who has experienced burnout, when I asked that kind of question, they're like, yeah, I didn't know, that's where I was at. So again, go to margie bryce dot com it's on the homepage of the website and you can get your burnout questionnaire and kind of see where you're at.

Margie: 34:43

Hey friends, the Crabby Pastor podcast is sponsored by Bryce Art Glass and you can find that on Facebook.

Margie: 34:52

But I will have some other ways that you can be a part of getting the word out about the importance self-care healthy for ministry leaders, of healthy self-care for ministry leaders. Hey, thanks for listening. It is my deep desire and passion to champion issues of sustainability in ministry and for your life, so I'm here to help. I stepped back from pastoral ministry and I feel called to help ministry leaders create and cultivate sustainability in their lives so that they can go the distance with God and whatever plans that God has for you. I would love to help, I would consider it an honor and, in all things, make sure you connect to these sustainability practices you know, so that you don't become the Crabby Pastor.

View Details

This week on the Crabby Pastor podcast, I’m thrilled to have Deborah Peck, author of "The Hijacked Conscience," join us to illuminate the often misunderstood world of religious scrupulosity. Deborah opens up about her personal battle with this form of OCD that entangles fear, sin, and relentless spiritual rituals. Together, we dissect the complexities of this condition, aiming to equip pastors and counselors with the knowledge to provide empathetic and informed support. Imagine feeling trapped in a cycle of doubt and ritual, a relentless quest for spiritual assurance that never comes. This episode delves into the heart of such struggles, examining the fine line where fervent faith meets mental health challenges. It’s a candid exploration of the relationship between faith, doubt, and the human psyche, offering solace to those yearning for certainty in their divine relationship.This conversation is more than just an exploration of religious scrupulosity; it’s a lifeline for leaders seeking to maintain their well-being to serve their congregations effectively. Tune in for an episode that promises guidance, hope, and understanding for anyone touched by the delicate interplay of faith and mental health.

Here is a link to her book: CLICK HERE

Support the show

🦀 🦀 🦀

Find regular support on my Facebook group by clicking HERE.Connect with me about COACHING and Workshops on self-care HERE.

TranscriptMargie: 0:01

Hey, there it's Margie Bryce, your host of the Crabby Pastor podcast, where we talk about all things sustainability, whether it's sustainability in ministry, in your personal life and we acknowledge that the church is in a transitional time, so we hit topics there too that are going to stretch your mind and the way you lead, especially how you lead yourself, so that you don't become the crabby pastor. So how do the pieces of your life fit together? Do they fit together well and things are humming along just fine, or are there some pieces that are tight or absent or just not fitting the bill? This is your invitation to join me in my glass workshop for a video series, where I am going to do a stained glass project while I talk to you about sustainability and building sustainability into your heart and into your life. So I am going to be doing my art, which is a form of self-care, and I'm going to invite you into that space with me and I'm going to chat. I'm going to chat about self-care and I'm going to show you how I create, and there's a nifty, nifty analogy Stained glass seems to be a very good metaphor for what I want to talk about, so I'd love for you to join me to do that. To opt in, I'll need you to email me at crabbypastor at gmailcom. That's crabbypastor at gmailcom. So you won't want to miss this. You definitely won't want to miss this, so make a plan to join me in the glass workshop.Margie: 2:00

Margie Bryce, here I am the host of the Crabby Pastor podcast, and we talk a lot about self-care, and, at the same time, we also bring topics to you that are informative, something that pastors should be aware of, or maybe it's on the order of what is wrong with the sheep. It's either what's wrong with us or what's wrong with the sheep One of the two. Today, though, I think we're bringing a rather interesting topic to you about religious scrupulosity. That's a mouthful for sure, and I have with me author Deborah Peck. She talks about this, and her book is the Hijacked Conscience, and I am going to let her give you a bit of an introduction about who she is and how she came to write this book.Debi: 3:03

So, yes, as Margie mentioned, my name is Debi and I recently wrote a book on religious scrupulosity obsessive compulsive disorder. And what led me to write the book is that I have suffered with religious scrupulosity for most of my life, starting at about age 11 or 12. And it was not diagnosed until about eight years ago, when I was in my late forties or well, early fifties.Margie: 3:32

And in there somewhere right.Debi: 3:34

Yeah, in there somewhere. Yeah, I lose track now of how long. I guess it's been about 10 years, so it was in my late forties. And the reason why it went so long undiagnosed is because it presents as a spiritual issue and I'll get more into that later.Debi: 3:51

But who do you take your spiritual issues to? You take them to your pastor or to other religious leaders, and pastors and religious leaders are not trained to recognize scrupulosity, and so it goes undiagnosed and untreated If it ends up in a counselor's office quite often. So I went through years of counseling but it was never identified because I never talked to my counselors about my spiritual issues. I just talked to my pastors about those, and so when pastors don't know how to treat scrupulosity correctly, they can actually do more harm in trying to help the people that have scrupulosity.Debi: 4:32

So I wrote this book. I started writing it primarily for pastors so that pastors would be able to recognize it, and then, as I wrote it, expanded to, I found found that counselors also are not well-versed in scrupulosity, and so I started writing for counselors and then, of course, for anybody that might suffer from scrupulosity. And it's been a long journey. It was to spend all those years undiagnosed and then, once I was diagnosed, to the healing that took place in me. I want to help other people heal as well.Margie: 5:09

Sure, sure, I have never heard of this. I mean, I've heard of being conscientious, okay yes. I probably would fit in that category, for sure. But what can you tell us about what scrupulosity is?Debi: 5:27

So the easiest way I find to explain religious scrupulosity is to start with another kind of obsessive compulsive disorder that we're all familiar with. You know the hand washing one, where people are afraid of germs. So they'll be walking along and their hand will brush a table and they're like, oh, there could be a germ on my hand. And then their brain tells them, oh, somebody with the flu might have touched that, I might have flu virus on my hand. And the anxiety grows. And how do they deal with the anxiety? They wash their hands because they need to make certain that they don't have any germs on their hand.Debi: 6:05

With religious scrupulosity, the germ, so to speak, is sin. A person with scrupulosity fears that they have sinned or they will sin, or that they're not doing their religious duties correctly, like they're not praying correctly or not reading their Bible correctly, or they're not. Whatever the religious thing that they happen to be focused on is. They might think, well, maybe I haven't asked for forgiveness for my sins correctly or said the sinner's prayer correctly, or been serious enough, and so it's a constant anxiety that I haven't done enough or that I am sinning or I'm going to sin. And then another portion of that for scrupulosity is what's called unwanted and intrusive thoughts.Debi: 6:57

Now, every type of OCD has this. So for a person with germs, the unwanted thought might be oh, there's germs out there, I'm going to get sick, I'm going to die if I have a germ. For a person with scrupulosity, an unwanted thought might be a blasphemous thought about God, or a sexual thought about God, or a thought about harming somebody you know drowning their child, somebody you know drowning their child. And for a person with scrupulosity, they think if I have the thought I am, I must want to do it. So, therefore, I am guilty of the action, as if I had actually done the thought. And so there's.Margie: 7:36

I mean jesus said if you have lusted after someone who have done, you know the thing Right. I mean, how do you?Debi: 7:50

distinguish. It goes back to understanding about thoughts. So I use the example in my book of we are bombarded with information all the time. We see billboards, we see news programs, we see social media. So say, for instance, we see on the news tonight that somebody drowned their children. So the next day we're giving our child a bath and the thought crosses our mind I could drown my child. Well, everybody has thoughts that go through their head. It doesn't mean that's what they want to do or it's what they would do, it's just their brain is aware that sometimes people do drown their children. So a thought will flick through our head. For a person with scrupulosity, we grab onto that thought and think. I actually thought that thought. But it's just the synapses in our brain throwing ideas out there, throwing stuff out there, and most people can just let go on down the stream. They don't, they don't have to think about it anymore. They're like, oh, that's a creepy thought and let it go. But so it's a thought.Margie: 8:57

With religious spruculosity, is going to fixate. Is going to then, you know, maybe end up at the altar on Sunday. Yes, because they'll think oh.Debi: 9:10

I must want to kill my child, so I'm an evil person, or I might be demon possessed, or that Satan might be trying to confuse me, and it's a very debilitating thing. But to learn to differentiate between a thought and thinking about something and I think that is what Jesus was getting at you might have a thought go through your head oh, there's an attractive person, I could have an affair with that person. Well, of course you're going to say no, that's not the way I live. But for a person with scrupulosity, they're like oh, I must be a terrible person, I must want to have an affair. And no, everybody has thoughts. It's not the same as thinking a thought. To think about it, you have to actually grab onto it.Margie: 9:59

Yeah, yeah, yeah, Because that's a pretty nuanced idea here you know yeah it really is.Debi: 10:08

I mean, well, there's in in the cycle in the field of psychology there's a thing called thought, action fusion. Okay, and that just refers to how, for a person with scrupulosity, they, they think if they thought the thought, they're guilty of the action, as if they committed the action, and there's a whole spectrum. So a person with very little thought, action fusion, it won't even occur to them that, oh, I thought a thought, therefore I want to do the action. They're like, yeah, I don't want to do that, that's not me, it's not my values. But a person with scrupulosity will be on the opposite end of the spectrum, where they think, oh, I'm a really awful person. So they will label themselves all kinds of awful.Debi: 11:01

There were times I called myself a murderer because a thought had gone through my head of drowning my child and so I thought I was as bad as a murderer, not understanding that no, it's a thought and that my brain, the way my, you know, ocd, is wired in our brain and we have to retrain our brain not to act or not to grab onto thoughts, to just let them go and not assign any moral, any moral oh, I don't know what the word is but any morality to it.Margie: 11:35

A thought is a thought.Debi: 11:38

It's not moral, it's not immoral. It's just a thought.Margie: 11:42

until we make a choice about the thought Okay, how did you get diagnosed and understand that there was something more going on with you?Debi: 11:57

Like I mentioned earlier, it took a lot of years. I started when I was about 11 or 12 with scrupulosity and with a very rigid way of thinking and struggled in my spiritual life. I would repeat the sinner's prayer over and over and I would take it to my pastors and they're like well, you just need to have more faith or you must have some secret sin that you're harboring. Or some pastors would say, oh, of course you're saved, but I never felt that I was, and so I struggled with it and struggled with it and about 10 years ago I was part of an online community with other fellow people from my church denomination and I started talking about some of my struggles and a woman on there texted me and said hey, you sound just like my husband and he has this thing called religious scrupulosity.Debi: 12:48

So, being a researcher like I am, I went researching and it was like reading my own story. I was there in every line of what it talked about scrupulosity. Well, I had gone through years of counseling on other types of OCD, like the germ OCD, so I knew how to start working on that. Thankfully, and with some more counseling and help, I was able to mostly. I don't know that I'll ever be totally free from scrupulosity. I still struggle at times, but I know how to deal with it. Recognize it and deal with it now. How does it?Margie: 13:29

develop in people.Debi: 13:31

Is it more about the way your brain is wired or what there seems to be a genetic component to all kinds of OCD. It's not totally genetic, but they think there's a strong genetic component to all kinds of OCD. It's not totally genetic, but they think there's a strong genetic component to it. Part of it can be personality. Those of us who are more just, naturally, personality-wise, are more conscientious, I think, are more prone to it. Every denomination, every religion has it. It's not just a Christian problem or a whatever problem. You have Muslims with it, you have Buddhists, you have non-religious people who have a type of scrupulosity. It just is the way that our brains interact with information and with anxiety.Margie: 14:23

So you're a pastor? Okay, Not you, but anyone is a pastor. How could a pastor kind of be tipped off that there is something more going on with this individual than what you'd normally see in the pastor's office?Debi: 14:48

Yeah, that's a really great question. So some of the things to look for would be like a person who comes to you as a pastor over and over, wanting reassurance, wanting to know, have I sinned, am I doing things correctly? Or needing to confess. A confession is a huge part of scrupulosity, where you have to go confess to somebody what you have done, your sins. So if you have somebody in your office constantly who needs to confess, or with lots of overly, overly conscientious type of person questions, so there are lots of people who are conscientious and some of those people actually derive joy in being conscientious. It doesn't cause anxiety or anything else. But if the person is conscientious and has anxiety related to the conscientiousness, that's a real tip off about it how does this connect with like perfectionism?Debi: 15:54

so perfectionism can be a can be part of of scrupulosity. It's so scrupulosity OCD is actually a mental illness, where perfectionism is not necessarily a mental illness. They can share similar things and the anxiety can share. But for scrupulosity, the overriding thing is fear of eternal damnation, that I'm going to go to hell If I don't do it right. I'm going to go to hell. If I don't do it right, I'm going to go to hell. And for a person with perfectionism, they don't necessarily have that step in there where they think, well, if I don't do it perfectly, I'm going to go to hell. They just have anxiety related to doing it perfect. But for scrupulosity, we live with the overwhelming fear constantly that we are going to go to hell. And it's not god's fault, it's our fault, because we're just so sinful and we're so we're just not doing it right and I mean where's grace in this picture you?Debi: 17:00

know there's grace for other people, for a person with scrupulosity, we do not allow ourselves grace at all because we are so afraid If I allow grace towards myself, then I'm going to go easy on sin in my life and I'm going to end up being deceived. So, yeah, we can be very grace filled toward other people, but toward ourselves we don't dare offer grace because we might get caught up in in sinning you know this.Margie: 17:32

This reminds me of and I think I shared this with you previously when we chatted a friend that we we were on staff at a church and the senior pastor left and we thought he was going about half an hour drive away and then about 20 minutes later he was back and we didn't know it at the time but something had happened on the highway and he turned around and came back.Margie: 18:07

I don't know if it was traffic or an accident or what. We didn't know that at the time. But she said to me oh my goodness, if he made it all the way there and back, he must have been speeding. And it's a good thing that Jesus didn't come back while he was speeding, because he was going to hell and I was like I'm thinking, are you serious? You know, real life is weird enough.Debi: 18:33

I never have to make stuff up, so yeah, no, but that's a perfect example of a scrupulosity sort of thing I was leading, I was presenting in a class at Northwest Nazarene University this week to first year ministry students, and the way I started the class was who here thinks who here follows the speed limits? Who here follows the traffic laws? And then I'm like, well, who here is like my friend Tony, who thinks they're just another man's opinion? And then I said my real question is who here thinks that if you don't follow the traffic laws you'll go to hell? And there were students who were brave enough to raise their hand.Margie: 19:17

What percent? I want to know what percent.Debi: 19:20

It was very small because most of the kids are like, yeah, we don't really follow the traffic laws. But for a person with scrupulosity, there is right or wrong, there is black or white, there is sin or no sin. There's no or wrong. There is black or white, there is sin or no sin. There's no gray areas.Margie: 19:37

I'm listening to this and I'm wondering if this is the result of hellfire and damnation preaching or something it can be, but again, there are atheists who have scrupulosity.Debi: 19:50

It's a function of their brain. There are atheists who have scrupulosity. It's a function of of their brain. So you can it. I think hellfire and damnation preaching can make it much more difficult for people who tend towards scrupulosity, but it it's not limited to us who grew up with that kind of mindset. I did grow up with that and it definitely affected me.Margie: 20:11

Oh, oh yeah, and I think that's pretty, for the most part, kind of passe. That style of presenting the gospel is passe, let me say it that way. So okay, so it's not a large percentage of people, but if you're a pastor and you have somebody chronically showing up and fearful and anxious about whether what they're doing is sufficient to get them into the pearly gates, or right, you know that's kind of a tip off that there is more going on. What would the treatment be?Debi: 20:55

So for pastors there's a couple of things I would say specifically is number one always be compassionate, because scrupulosity is incredibly painful. So meet the person with compassion. But what pastors cannot do is offer assurance, which is just the opposite of what pastors normally would do when a person comes to them concerned about their spiritual life. And for a normal person, assurance is wonderful and appropriate. For a person with scrupulosity, assurance is like a drug. So we have to come back to our pastor over and over and over to get that good feeling again that we're okay. We have to have somebody outside of us say okay. So pastors have to stop offering assurance. If they suspect a person has scrupulosity, don't get pulled into offering assurance and refer them for help. And that's not going to be an easy thing because most of us are very resistant to that Because again, we're afraid oh, maybe I'm being easy on sin if I seek out counseling. Maybe the counselor will convince me I'm not really a bad person and so maybe I will miss heaven if I get counseling. So expect pushback.Margie: 22:20

Or if you go to the psychiatrist or the therapist, that could mean you're going to hell too. I mean, I knew people who went that way.Debi: 22:28

I grew up in a church that did not allow counseling because you were going to be led astray, you were going to be deceived if you went to counseling to them over and over and over for reassurance. And if they don't do that, they set up both themselves and the person that they're trying to help for a very bad experience Because they get frustrated with the person coming back and the person coming back gets frustrated because they need the help and they feel like they're being abandoned. But if, if pastors set good boundaries and and maintain those boundaries and refuse to get drawn into into the reassurance part, that pushes the person to get the appropriate help that they need and it keeps the pastor safe and safe emotionally and safe from burnout. That can happen really quickly when they're dealing with people with scrupulosity. We can wear our pastors out because we are so needy and I am a strong proponent for pastors maintaining those good boundaries for yourself, but for the person as well so you want them to be compassionate but not reassuring?Margie: 24:08

yes, so I'm putting myself in the pastor's shoes for a moment here and just saying how do you be compassionate and but not reassuring? But hold your boundaries, but so that they will get the help that they need? I mean, you would want to send somebody, I would think, to a Christian therapist.Debi: 24:34

Yes.Margie: 24:35

Somebody that's going to have respect for your Christian faith but also have some experience and knowledge of OCD related things as it relates to your faith. So how would you be compassionate but not reassuring, I mean? To me challenging then it's like don't say it'll be okay, it'll be okay. I mean, that's reassuring yeah, yeah.Debi: 25:02

And don't say oh, of course you're saved.Margie: 25:05

You don't say one of my pastors, don't say that yeah, don't say of course you're probably one of the most interesting interviews, I think, because I'm just trying to wrap my mind around something that I know I have gotten glimpses of this kind of thing from from other and a lot of it, you know, was mostly older generation people. The guy at the altar just cried because he would repeatedly go to the altar and he was a senior citizen and you know I didn't know what was wrong. I was kind of a rookie pastor on staff and finally talked to somebody and they said, oh, he was on the beaches at Normandy, you know, and you're like, okay, he couldn't, as he said, get the victory over it.Debi: 26:00

Yeah, and that's a sure sign of scrupulosity when people go to the altar. In church traditions that have an altar like that, where they go to the altar over and, over and over and just can't get the victory, that's scrupulosity talking right there. And it's a sad thing because I think part of it is. We need to reframe preaching along the lines of assurance. So for a person with scrupulosity we must have, or for any OCD, the goal is absolute certainty, and so we have been taught subtly that if you have doubt, that doubt is the opposite of faith. Well, doubt is not the opposite of faith. Unfaith is the opposite of faith. Unfaith is the opposite of faith Doubt.Debi: 26:55

It is actually impossible to have faith if there's not the possibility of doubt and because otherwise you don't need faith. If it's 100% sure thing that you can nail it down, you don't need faith for that. But you can't nail down your salvation. You can't put it out on the table and look at it and say, oh, I'm saved for sure. There is always that possibility, but then you go back to putting it back on where it should be. God is the one responsible for us, and when we've given our lives to him, it's his responsibility to hold on to us, and we do. We, of course, want to live a life that's not sinful. I'm from a Nazarene tradition, a Wesleyan tradition where we believe that we are tradition, a Wesleyan tradition where we believe that we can live free from sin, that we don't have to sin, and that should be the goal. But I don't have to nail it down and say, well, I am so 100% sure that I said the sinner's prayer correctly, I can trust.Margie: 28:14

God, that I have done, you wouldn't fixate on that.Debi: 28:17

Yes, oh, yeah. So there were years of my life where I couldn't ride in a car without saying the sinner's prayer because I was so afraid I'd get in an accident and die. I couldn't plug something into an outlet in case it got electrocuted and died. I needed to make sure I had confessed and made sure I was right with God first, and to let go of that and let God be responsible for me and for my salvation was a huge thing for me. To say I can rest in God's promises, and it's difficult to do. It's difficult to make that thing, to say, okay, I have doubts about my salvation, but I look at my life. I've not sinned, I've not chosen to walk away from God, so I can rest. I don't have to say the sinner's prayer again. I don't have to, in one sense, wash my hands again to make sure I don't have any germs on them, because I've washed them 10 times already.Debi: 29:19

It's a really difficult mental illness. It's one of the most difficult to treat because it deals with our eternal soul. And so, yeah, a Christian counselor or a counselor with coming from your own faith background is really important because you can get and I've heard the stories of people who've gone to non-Christian counselors who have said oh, you just need to let go of your faith. Just tell yourself well, you know, one of them is I don't know if God loves me. That's a big one with scrupulosity, I'm not sure of God's love. Well then, just tell yourself God doesn't love you and move on. Well, that's telling yourself a lie. It's replacing one lie with another lie, which isn't helpful. Yeah, pastors in in being compassionate but not offering assurance. They they can't offer the security that's between the person and God, but they can direct the person to it.Debi: 30:26

One of my pastors would say but years before I knew about scrupulosity, I had a pastor that was really helpful and he appealed to my intellect. He's like the fruit of the spirit is evidence of the Holy Spirit in your life. So if you have the fruit of the spirit growing in you, then you can be assured you have. You are a child of God. So ask yourself am I more loving today than I was six months ago? Am I more patient today than I was six months ago? And if there's growth, that's evidence of this Holy Spirit in your life. And that was really helpful to me, because then it took it outside of my brain going crazy, trying to figure it out to something a little more concrete. That was like okay, I know I am.Debi: 31:14

And he also said if you doubt it, ask your family. Am I more loving? Because God is always at work in our lives. Even when we can't see it, even when we're not aware of it, the Holy Spirit is changing us and remaking us more and more into the image of Christ. That happens to us without our knowing about it, sometimes without our being aware of it, and so those are things we can look for and but yeah, it's hard. It's hard to have a good answer of what to tell pastors to do. It is, and I'm thinking too.Margie: 31:53

I mean, if you're looking at life from the Wesleyan and or Wesleyan holiness perspective, there's a lot to be said for grace and how grace functions in the life of the believer, functions in the life of the believer. But I want to go back to something you said earlier, because you said that even atheists can have this. Atheists wouldn't be scared about going to hell right.Debi: 32:28

Actually, it's a really interesting phenomenon and I didn't know this until I was researching for my book that there are atheists who are actually fearful of displeasing a God that they don't even believe in. So there are atheists who actually have scrupulosity, which makes no religious scrupulosity, which doesn't make sense. There's also another kind of scrupulosity, called moral scrupulosity, that non-christians or non-religious people can have, a moral scrupulosity that is concerned with being a good person.Margie: 33:01

So an atheist can either have more or religious you know, when I think of things like the doctrine of humanity, what it, what it means to be a person, and we are a little messed up. That's kind of just a quickie way to say it. There's stuff wrong with us and that's just the way it is, and God loves us despite that. But do you think that it's people that are not comfortable in that skin, wearing that skin of humanity, and want to shed that so that they are more pleasing to God, which is a works-based theology really?Debi: 33:45

Right. Well, I think there's a huge misunderstanding for a lot of people about our humanity and our flesh. When God created us, he created us good, and so we have Jesus, who was the perfect human, and my friend, dr Diane LeClaire, who's a theologian in the Nazarene Church. She has helped influence me so much in this area of understanding that the more like Jesus we become, the more human we become. So we shouldn't ever say, oh, I'm just human, as if humanity is why we do bad things, do bad things.Debi: 34:29

No, in true humanity, in true who we should be, who we were created to be, the more like Jesus we become, the more human we become, and I find that very redeeming. As opposed to, I've got to rid myself of this human flesh. No, god is in the business of redemption, of redeeming us and of remaking, and we're new creations. No-transcript. Yes, because and it's related to anxiety and fear that if I say that, then what if I go easy on sin? And it's a misunderstanding of it goes back to works-based my salvation by doing this instead of understanding that it is the work of God.Debi: 35:34

And you know, to a degree it's because churches have taught well, we have to, we can't be saved unless we do this, this, this and this. And so we do this, this, this and this and we think that's what saved us. No, it was Christ that saved us.Margie: 35:49

It was the work of God in us, what they don't do real well, because there's scads of people that would run around and say I accepted Jesus as my personal Savior, and I'm not saying that's incorrect here, but what I am saying is that's not an accurate description of the place, right place.Margie: 36:16

I mean, the fact of the matter is that god knocked on your, on your heart, and you responded yes. So you should be saying you know god reached out to me and and I accepted christ as a result of you know god, that would. That fits in with prevenient grace, it fits in with justifying grace and all that. But yeah, so I'm just kind of theologically here. This is really something to grasp and really challenges pastors as well to make sure that they are accurately teaching these things and making sure that it's, you know, the part that we play and the part that God plays, and that God is the one that is the sustainer of our relationship with Christ. I mean, we can walk away, right, I am done with that, but I still think that God comes and chases after and, you know, comes after us.Debi: 37:22

Yes, until the last. I find such comfort in a God who pursues us until there's no more pursuing available. That's the God that I know, that's the God that I love, the God who sought me first and constantly seeks me first. Like you said, god initiates, we respond and we kind of get that backward. Well, like you say, I invited Jesus into my heart. Well, yeah, he. I invited Jesus into my heart. Well, yeah, he was already pursuing me. I stepped into what God already wanted.Margie: 38:07

And then you're saying I too much. That's kind of a tip off that you know you're a little self-centric there instead of God-centric.Debi: 38:17

Yeah, so pastors can do a better job. I think of explaining that and explaining that it is God who does the work in us.Margie: 38:27

Sure. And then you think about Paul and I think he was being a little sarcastic, maybe I don't know what you know he says shall we just keep on sinning so that grace abounds more and more? And you're like well, I mean, you know you can't con God, you really can't. I mean I think you are for a brief moment there, but certainly you can't and you don't. You want to take sin in your life seriously and you want to grow grace and you want to grow closer to Christ. So these it has the essence of good things and many times we'll say that you know our strengths. Our personal strengths can become weaknesses if we take too far which we usually do.Margie: 39:19

And then we have to backtrack and say all right, a little too far with that.Debi: 39:23

Well, I'm going back to why we sin. For a Christian, it's not well. I don't want to sin because I don't want to go to hell. I don't want to sin because I don't want to go to hell. It's I have this relationship with God that means so much to me that I want to live for him, and I grew up in a church situation where it was all preached from the negative, from the fear part, from the you better be sure you're ready.Margie: 39:53

If you don't sign't, go to hell.Debi: 39:55

You know that exactly, and there was. There was none of this beauty of what god does in our lives in the here and now. It was all about eternity way down the road someday, when we die, and nothing about the joy of being in a relationship with God Now. The difference God can make in our lives now, and that is that new creation has already started, is such a beautiful part of this that was never presented to me when I was younger.Margie: 40:28

And and what I think you know, anxiety is like the number one ill of life at the moment. Yeah, maybe it always was, I don't know, but we sure talk a lot about it, more so now than ever before, and dig at it a little bit more now. But at the same time, the peace that passes, understanding it's something that life with Christ can afford us, that, I think, is way under preached, and so I think that that certainly could be helpful, you know, instead, of just fire insurance, you know.Debi: 41:10

Right. Well, it reminds me of I talk in the book about. I grew up with this ask Jesus into your heart and Jesus lives in your heart, and all of this. And for me that caused such extreme anxiety because it's like, oh, I've got God in me, so I've got to be sure I'm doing everything perfect and being perfect. But there's other scriptures that talk about being in Christ. And when I started thinking about what it means to be in Christ, then it took it outside of this me, this little person trying to contain a holy God to a holy God containing me. I'm resting in him and it just, I mean the expanse of who God is and I'm in Christ. It was just a. It took so much of that anxiety away to be able to rest in that and that I don't have to hold on to God, he's holding on to me well, and with that I'm going to conclude our conversation.Margie: 42:13

This has been really interesting, interesting, interesting connections to doctrine of what it means to be human, doctrine of salvation and and all of those kinds of things, and I will put a link to your book in the show notes and I yeah, this has been a real challenging conversation in how could pastors identify people who are struggling with this so that they could get the help that they need? Really solid, you know theology. Drag your sister's theology books out again and just kind of go through that and really make sure that you have that solid foundation out of which you can speak and offer God's grace in appropriate ways, especially to those who are dealing with something like religious scrupulosity. So thank you very much, debbie, for putting me on here. It's a great conversation.Debi: 43:22

Thank you so much for having me.Margie: 43:26

Are you wondering whether your fatigue, your lack of motivation, your lack of interest is burnout maybe? I just wanted to let you know that I have a resource on the website, Margie Bryce dot com that's B-R-Y-C-E Margie Bryce dot com and it is a burnout questionnaire, free for you to download, and kind of self-assess and get a sense of where you're at. There are questions that not only ask about what you're going through but maybe how often you're experiencing it and that's that's kind of a key to where you might be, because you have to know where you are in order to chart a course forward. And most pastors who experience pastors and ministry leaders who experience burnout rarely know that that's where they're at until they're well into it. And if you're unsure about that little statistic, so far, everybody that I've interviewed on this podcast who has experienced burnout, when I asked that kind of question, they're like, yeah, I didn't know that's where I was at. So again, go to margiebricecom it's on the homepage of the website and you can get your burnout questionnaire and kind of see where you're at.Margie: 45:04

Hey friends, the Crabby Pastor podcast is sponsored by Bryce Art Glass and you can find that on Facebook I make stained glass as part of my self-care and also by Bryce Coaching, where I coach ministry leaders and business leaders, and so the funds that I generate from coaching and from making stained glass is what is supporting this podcast and I will have opportunities for you to be a part of sponsoring me and, as always, you can do the buy me a cup of coffee thing in the show notes.Margie: 45:54

But I will have some other ways that you can be a part of getting the word out about the importance of healthy self-care for ministry leaders. Hey, thanks for listening. It is my deep desire and passion to champion issues of sustainability in ministry and for your life, so I'm here to help. I stepped back from pastoral ministry and I feel called to help ministry leaders create and cultivate sustainability in their lives so that they can go the distance with God and whatever plans that God has for you. I would love to help, I would consider it an honor, and, in all things, make sure you connect to these sustainability practices you know so that you don't become the crabby pastor.

View Details

Let's peel back the curtain of battles with diets from Atkins to Weight Watchers, and I'll share how I learned to navigate the emotional minefields that can sabotage our healthiest intentions. This episode isn't just about what you eat, it's about the challenges we face with food. I'll share how adapting your weight management approach to fit your lifestyle is more effective than chasing the latest diet fads. From the debate over how often to step on the scale to the benefits of tracking your diet and exercise with the latest tech, I'll chat about the choices that can keep you focused on good health so you can go the distance with God. Join me as we tackle these topics and more, all while supporting each other in our quest for a balanced life in service and beyond.Support the show

🦀 🦀 🦀

Find regular support on my Facebook group by clicking HERE.Connect with me about COACHING and Workshops on self-care HERE.

TranscriptMargie: 0:01

It's Margie Bryce with the CrabbyPaster Podcast and we are going to be talking. I'm just diving right into this. You know, just like you dive into a big plate of spaghetti, we're diving into food today. Food, food, food. I have to confess, if there's ever a famine in the land, I will indeed be the last person standing this very slow metabolism that I have been gifted with. Yeah, it's kind of a pain. But the other thing, the other way I could self-describe then, is that I used to own a horse and well, actually more than one and one of them was no matter how much hay you threw in there, he would still, his rips would still be showing and I'm like what is going on. So he had a different kind of metabolism than the other horse, where you just throw a little bit of hay into the pen and she would stay nice and fat. So I would be more like horse number two and I would just hang on to whatever weight, just pokey, pokey, pokey, slow metabolism. So I've done various things over the years. I've done a lot of things. You know, years ago I did Adkins, you know, and there's now they reframe that as keto and I get it. Actually, you know you're controlling your carbs and all of that kind of thing and you know I think it worked for me for a time Actually this might be back in the 80s or something 80s, 90s and it did work.Margie: 4:02

But I'm sorry people, no bread ever is, or hardly. It's just not, not, not sustainable for me. And that that's where I went in many instances was what? What could I do for the long term, the long haul? And that's where I have to hang out.Margie: 4:27

And I have to do something because I know that if you let me run around in the yard wherever I want to go, in the yard of food, that is wherever I want to go you let me just run. I know where that takes me and it takes me to the land of overweight. Too much, too much. So I have to be doing something. And, trust me, I kind of loathe that actually, that I really have to be this attentive to what I feed my face. I'm thinking this is going to drop like right before a holiday Sunday, so, yay, that's probably going to make your day. But what I have done, you know, because I have done the counting macros. You know where you divide, how much protein you're eating, how much carbs, how much fat, all of that I've done that For some reason.Margie: 5:28

That just doesn't work for me and I know it works for a lot of people, but I have. In fact, I probably should confess this along the way too, because I'm really not meaning to Make any kind of sales pitch at all. Trust me, I don't like doing that kind of thing at all. But I am a former weight watcher leader and you know you can sit in weight watchers and people will always say, well, okay, this is my third time or fifth time or 25th time rejoining. Why is that? Because we are all foodies in there, not foodies as in the eclectic folk who taste tantalizing meals and they know what they're talking about and what different Sensations there are and how their palates are developing in regards to food.Margie: 6:25

Not that kind of foodie. So it would be the kind of foodie where you know All right, wendy, you know I would say that I eat. When I'm bored, I eat. When I'm anxious, I eat when Well, just, I mean those two alone. When are you not one of those one of you're not bored, when you're not English anxious, you know. So you know kind of identifying what your triggers are, and Weight watchers does help you do that, although they did.Margie: 6:56

I remember the week that he said you know what's your trigger food, or what's the food that you just have to have, or, and I thought, I don't know, I don't have one of, and it finally came. I finally figured it out like Months later that it is chocolate. I have to have some form of Chocolate, so I have to devise ways to make that happen where I'm not, you know, gonna down like a whole box of ho ho's or Something like that. So, yeah, all right. So what what I felt like Weight Watchers did for me was give me a yard to run around in and I'm safe as long as I'm in that yard and and there's a lot of flexibility with it and you can eat bread in that. I mean, of late I have gone to sourdough only.Margie: 7:47

I am blessed to have a niece that Not only does she raise organic vegetables, which all year round in a hoop house and she's very ambitious, but she's taken to sourdough bread, which is only a couple of ingredients actually, and she'll do organic flour and whatever. So I'm kind of just for the sake of whatever I, that's my bread resource at the moment, because you know I can't go the rest of my life without bread. I am not gonna go the rest of my life without cake either. That just is not realistic and it's not long-term sustainable, you know, and at the end of the day you have to find something that works for you. And that's that can be annoying, because I think I've spent a lot of years plumbing the depths of that, what would work for me. And I kind of have learned a good bit along the way, although Life gets in the way, doesn't it?Margie: 8:53

We were in a small group meeting and I did pretty good with with the meal. I mean, I knew that they may or may not be cooking according to what I would prefer to eat and I had made allowances for that. But then they stuck this I guess it was called a tuxedo cake, you know and they stuck a piece in front of me and it wasn't a huge piece and I, you know, I don't make a big deal with them about what my food Things are, because there's a lot of people with food things today and it just it's. You know, I didn't want to be the added food thing. So I you know, and that day I just said, man, I'm eating this cake, and it was if I had taken two bites and went this is not a worthwhile cheat. I can stop because I just don't want to waste my little points like that. But this was definitely a worthwhile cheat. So I Went home and I looked it up and, oh my goodness, I thought I was gonna stroke out because it was 24 points and I keep in mind that my daily allotment of points is 23.Margie: 10:13

So on, on the Weight Watchers gig here which I have returned to, this is at least three number three, third time I've joined, I think. I just I just went back to what I knew had worked for me previously and it was cheap. I got a good deal. You know, those are two kind of Non-negotiables for me ten bucks a month. I can do this and I can do it on my own. I know how to do this. But 23 points a day now you get a daily amount, but then you have this thing called your weeklies, and sometimes your weeklies increase depending on how much exercise you do and and I do a decent amount of that and but yeah, I just about stroked out. But you know that week is a week that I lost and I Was scratching my head about that. But Because I was on a three-week plateau, you know, and nothing ticks me off more Then to be working hard at something and not getting any results, that is just Beyond annoying to me, absolutely beyond annoying. So, all right, so I ate the piece of cake and said, well, that's just too bad. I mean, I think I had enough in my weekly bank to cover it, but it was. It was shocking none the less, I mean, anyhow. So I ate the cake.Margie: 11:42

But along the way here I have picked up a couple things that I wanted to pass along to you as a Maybe a fellow Sufferer. I've seen people in the Facebook group say oh yeah, you know, food is a thing for me. Number one is you do have to find what works and what you can be at peace with. I mean, maybe it's keto, I don't know, but that just wasn't gonna do it for me. Yeah, and I've had some friends doing various things. I think one friend was doing a process and program through Mayo Clinic and she said it wasn't expensive. She was eating a ridiculous amount of vegetables and leeks and all kind of weird stuff and doing all these new menus and Brand new recipes and I just thought I know, I will not do that. I know I just will not Do that. So knowing that about myself kind of brought me back To what I knew had worked for me in the past and I thought I I just have to dig down and do it. And I got to tell you about that digging down and just doing it.Margie: 12:56

If there is any level of Stress or trauma going on in your life, I think it is very difficult to dig down and do it. I have been trying to dig down and do it for the past couple years and just I just could not get myself going with it. I just could not. So finally, some of the stress level has, you know, abated, it's gone down, and then I'm like, okay, I think, I think I'm in a good place here. I need to get back at it. However, I have to add that as Some major sources of stress start to increase because I noticed this, my three-week plateau, I think was connected to this because at the exact same time there were a couple things that could have caused a little stress.Margie: 13:54

One was just some general relational stress with, with people I know, and the other the other was I Finally decided to pick up some free weights and do a thing at home and I had a friend whose husband is a no-neck guy. You know, wait, professional weight lifter person, help put together. I said, just put something together for me, will you? That's just like two times a week. I will do two times a week, that's, you know, that's what I know, that I will like, really do so.Margie: 14:31

But when you start something new like this and your body's going wait, wait, wait, it does cause a level of stress and you have to give your body time to adjust to that. Okay, fine, we did that. And then the stress, the relational stress, kind of abated and then all of a sudden, the way it started Coming back off. I, you know what can you say? But as you are Tracking, that kind of thing is you're tracking your weight, you know If you're getting on the dreaded scale and some people say you need to get on every day so that you can learn To understand and live with the daily fluctuations of the weight.Margie: 15:12

I, you know I can't do that. I don't need to get on the scale first thing in the morning and and then have a two pound increase because I had Mrs Grass soup with extra noodles and there's an outrageous amount of sodium in there. But still, after you've done something like that and you get on the scale and suddenly you're up two or three pounds, even though you know it's because you ate sodium, you start the day off cheesed. Who needs that? I don't. So I, when I'm gonna get on the scale, I know that I have an eight out for a couple of days and I haven't, I don't know. There there was one gallon weight watchers that always the night before away and she would eat a bunch of asparagus because it was a diuretic. I thought I don't know. I I don't think I would have pulled that off, so I just didn't bother with it, but she could always do that.Margie: 16:09

So maybe getting on once or twice a week again, you've got to figure out what's gonna work for you, if you can become friends with your scale because you get on every day and you see the couple pounds of Fluctuation and you're okay with it. You're not starting the day off cheesed off because of it, then by all means do it. But you need to at least measure and be aware. And I think it's James Clear that says he's the author of Atomic Habits. He says you measure, you care about what you measure, or you measure what you care about One of the two of them. Either way. Either way, the net result is you got to become friends with getting on the scale at some point, whether it's weekly or every day. I would not do every day, but it's up to you. Go for it.Margie: 16:59

The same thing goes with your movement. You know, that's kind of the code word for exercise, but movement, how much movement you're doing, and I like my Apple Watch for that, which is indeed synced to the Weight Watcher app. So we know how that all is going. So if I'm on the indoor bike because it's Michigan and I do not get outside on the bike bike until it's 47 degrees at the least and I know this because I got on the bike when it was 46 degrees and I said never again, this is too cold. So 47 degrees is my minimum, which we might, I don't know. Sometimes we're lucky, right now it's we're kind of lucky out there. But I did get on the indoor bike and you know it self calculates and I'm I'm good with that. But again I'm measuring something because I want to be able to have a piece of tuxedo cake and it's not like the end of the world.Margie: 18:02

So I am firmly entrenched in tracking what I eat, which, when I'm off and not doing it, it just seems overwhelming, just the idea of writing down everything I eat. Well, I don't write it down, I track it in the app, which you know they have a nice little app going. I will say that for them. But you know my fitness bell is also a good gig too, if you can kind of get that rolling. So I will track and keep track of what I am putting in my face here.Margie: 18:44

Here's the thing I I can easily under eat, and I know that's that's weird. I just got to a discussion on some Facebook group that I said you can't, you cannot under eat because and this is the very annoying fact of weight loss you can't under eat, you can't over eat. So you have to kind of learn that, your upper boundaries and your lower boundaries. Which is why I like Weight Watchers, because then I have this little area that I know I can run in and I'm happy with that. So so you can't under eat, you can't over eat. You actually can under eat and just start gaining weight because your body is like what, what is there? Is there starvation in the land? Is there a famine here? Is there what food shortages, what? What's going on? So eating less is not going to be helpful, and I can very easily eat less and get by in life.Margie: 19:49

So so one other quick thing that I will give you is that and it's easy to do this which is eat the same foods all the time, in the same quantities, and, as I said, it's just quick, convenient. Well, I ate this yesterday so I could get by with that again today. You know your body does better when you vary the pace, because then your metabolism is like what is going on? Okay, she ate. Let's say, for example, here that it's 23 points a day. Or if you want to say calories I don't know we'll say 1450 calories is your daily intake, and you know, you could probably multiply that times seven-ish and get an idea for the week. But maybe one day you want to eat 100% of your allotment the next day 85%. The next day 110%, the next day you see what I'm saying have a varied intake amount and that will kind of help your metabolism going. And keep in mind you're getting this straight from the horse's mouth here, the the easy keepers mouth that varying things up will indeed net you that nut in your metabolism.Margie: 21:25

And I think, the most important thing of everything that I've said here, you know, as someone who has I struggle is seems very insufficient, very insufficient to what I've done since I was in my 30s and I said to myself I do not want to trot down the family path of the diabetes, if I can help it, because there was a lot, lot, lot of that type two and that, basically, is where you know, where you just pooped out your pancreas and it just can't go no more. I did not want to go down there, that route, because it was heavy. It still is heavy in the family. So so I've struggled with this for a long time, or worked on it, I've worked on it and then I've gone oh nuts to this, I'm not working on this anymore because this is just too fatiguing, it's just too annoying to whatever. But then you know, the older you get and you really start looking at your overall health and thinking differently about these things. So at the end of the day, you have to find something that is doable for you, something that you know. I will do that, like my girlfriend who's she said she dropped like 15 pounds on this Mayo Clinic thing where she's making leeks and she's ate more vegetables in her life, which is always a good thing. Eating more vegetables, that's always always an area that I could stand to improve on.Margie: 23:02

But I just knew I was not going to spend that kind of time with the new recipes, and I just knew it. You know, it's about really being honest with yourself and I know I can't do keto because I just at some point I'm just going to fall off of that. And so at some point somebody's going to stick a tuxedo cake in front of me, and you know, if you get together with your small group two times a month, let's say, and there's food involved because we'll do once a month, we'll do food, and then the other time is a zoom. But I'm thinking if, once a month, if somebody sticks a small piece of pie in front of me or a 24 point tuxedo cake, you know I need to be able to eat it and just not go to the guilt farm about it and have it be okay, because I've attended to my eating and attended to food and properly fueling my body so it can do what it needs to do, and I've done that the majority of the month, so it's just not criminal. So that's what I want to leave you with is find something that you know okay, I could do that.Margie: 24:14

This is not in any way shape or form a campaign for Weight Watchers. It works for me, but there's other stuff out there. I've seen friends with good luck with Noom. Any of those things kind of try to steer you towards adopting more healthy eating, and that really is the bottom line of it. And steering us away from a lot of the processed foods is always always a good idea. You know, shop the perimeter of the store, as they say, and not not doing a lot of processed stuff. And that doesn't mean you never can, because once you get to the place where it's, you never I am never going to, never going to have a piece of bread that my brain goes does not compute. So you need to find something that does compute for you and then walk in that way. Will you be perfect all the time? No, will somebody stick a tuxedo cake in front of you and you will whoop that puppy down? Yes, but it's about being dedicated to keeping on, keeping on, working on it, and that's it. Working on it. Slowly but surely you can turn the tide and and I'll be right there with you, because I get a feeling I'm never, ever going to stop working on this, this side of the dirt anyway. So that's my food diatribe for you and I hope it's encouraged you maybe to rethink or something in regards to your food intake.Margie: 25:59

Are you wondering whether your fatigue, your lack of motivation, your lack of interest is burnout Maybe? I just wanted to let you know that I have a resource on the website, margiebricecom that's B-R-Y-C-E, margiebricecom, and it is a burnout questionnaire free for you to download, and kind of self-assess and get a sense of where you're at. There are questions that not only ask about what you're going through, but maybe how often you're experiencing it, and that's that's kind of a key to where you might be, because you have to know where you are in order to chart a course forward and most pastors who experience pastors and ministry leaders who experience burnout rarely know that that's where they're at until they're well into it. And if, if you're unsure about that little statistic, so far, everybody that I've interviewed on this podcast who has experienced burnout when I asked that kind of question, they're like, yeah, I didn't know, that's where I was at. So again, go to margiebricecom. It's on the homepage of the website and you can get your burnout questionnaire and kind of see where you're at.Margie: 27:37

Hey, friends, the Crabby Pastor podcast is sponsored by Bryce Art Glass and you can find that on Facebook.Margie: 27:46

I make stained glass, that's part of my self care and also by Bryce coaching, where I coach ministry leaders and business leaders, and so the funds that I generate from coaching and from making stained glass is what is supporting this podcast and I will have opportunities for you to be a part of sponsoring me and, as always, you can do the buy me a cup of coffee thing in the in the show notes.Margie: 28:20

But I will have some other ways that you can be a part of getting the word out about the importance of healthy self care for ministry leaders. Hey, thanks for listening. It is my deep desire and passion to champion issues of sustainability in ministry and for your life, so I'm here to help. I stepped back from pastoral ministry and I feel called to help ministry leaders create and cultivate sustainability in their lives so that they can go the distance with God and whatever plans that God has for you. I would love to help, I would consider it an honor, and in all things, make sure you connect to these sustainability practices you know so that you don't become the Crabby Pastor.

View Details

Here's a unique metaphor for HOW we work in our vocations. Join me, Margie Bryce, on a journey to harmonize the scattered shards of our personal and professional lives, just like crafting a stained glass masterpiece. The silent predator of burnout lurks in the shadows of our demanding roles, which is why this episode features a vital burnout questionnaire to help you self-assess and remain vigilant. Reflecting on my own decision to step back from pastoral ministry, I opened up about the path that led me to become a coach for others walking a similar journey. We'll discuss the importance of self-awareness and the implementation of healthy self-care practices, aimed at preserving the passion that fuels our service without being consumed by it. If you're a ministry leader seeking to keep your inner flame alive, this conversation is a beacon in the night, guiding you toward sustainable care for yourself as you care for others.Support the show

🦀 🦀 🦀

Find regular support on my Facebook group by clicking HERE.Connect with me about COACHING and Workshops on self-care HERE.

TranscriptMargie: 0:01

Hey there, friends, welcome to the Crabby Pastor Podcast, and I am here this day talking to you about something rather important. Now I have to start this out with kind of a disclaimer of sorts. I don't know, I've listened to a lot of illustrations for football and baseball and any kind of sport thing for a long time. So I am pressing the male people that are listening to this to hang in here with me, because I'm going to be talking about nails. We're talking about fingernails, we're talking about polish, we're talking about things like shellac, which, by the way, is one of the greatest inventions. I don't know why anybody's not talking about this. It's been a number of years where you can go get your nails done and they stay pristine, perfect, for like two weeks. So I want to talk about that because we're going to go to a rather interesting place here. So just hang with me as I do this and I think you'll be challenged.Margie: 3:29

So I have been on the hunt for a new nail tech for a while and some of that had to do with this issue of shellac the pristine, perfect for two weeks nails thing and it's good, but the removal of it can be a little dastardly, let's say. In fact it is so dastardly that some of the nail techs I mean I get it I can't imagine doing that job, that task. It would be, I don't know, just challenging, I would think. And I do know some nail techs that actually have carpal tunnel at a pretty early age from doing everything that they do. But some of the nail techs will take a little drill and will just kind of drill or buff off your old nail polish before putting new on, which sort of sounds cool, except if you're on the receiving end and you realize that they've maybe gone a little too far with it and your nail bed feels a little tender. That is definitely definitely not cool. But the usual thing is that they take little pieces of paper towel or something, they soak it in acetone, which is like nail polish remover, and they put that on your nail and then they put a piece of tin foil wrap your finger at the end of your finger in tin foil and let it kind of soak for a while and then still in some instances there can be quite a bit of scraping going on, and that's just the way that that goes. That's just the way it is.Margie: 5:09

So I don't know, I just was having some concern about a nail tech or two at the same spot, where you know I had tried a few, and I just, I don't know, it was bothering me. So I thought I got to find somebody new and I did. I went into this brand new salon and met with this gal and immediately she looked at my nails and she asked all about my prior experience with nail techs and what has gone on and what kind of a process I was using, what kind of polish brand that it was that I had on, I mean. And as she's doing this, she's kind of critiquing my nails and I felt a little, you know, intimidated by that. Frankly, I mean, I kind of had a sense that something was not right, but when people pointed out, you know, that's a whole different bulging.Margie: 6:09

Now, I'm not the only one just for the sake of argument here that has had this issue. I just was walking, doing my trail walking with a friend and she she said let me look at your nails, look at that. She said I've had this issue with nail techs and I can't find anybody. I said, oh, you need to go to my new person because she's really great. So this is a thing All the ladies are saying yeah, the ladies that do this and the guys. Well, you're just going to have to go on this little journey, okay, for just a few moments here.Margie: 6:48

So my new nail tech is looking at my nails and she's telling me that they are layers of clear base coat that were never properly removed there and that there's ripples in my nails, and then she goes on to a lengthy diatrium about how she can make my nails be healthy again. Now I don't know that. I would have said, man, my nails are not healthy. I just had an uneasy feeling about how it was going. Okay and just, you know, some of the places will get you in and get you out in an hour, and that's the goal. If that's what you're looking for, that's fine, because this gal does take a little bit longer. But she she definitely, you know looked at my nails and put them in the category of unhealthy and she prescribed some oil for me to put on my cuticles and all this, and then I come back the next time and she is still going on and on.Margie: 7:51

I mean, I have to be quite honest, I was like almost a little intimidated to show up because I was wondering what she was going to say, you know like, oh, am I doing a good job or what? I'm not sure what that's about, where I just felt like felt a little intimidated by her. But okay, I kept on with her and I can see. I can see that there is a drastic difference between someone who just does the task, just do the task, get this done, and someone who is really concerned about how it is done and whether it's done in a way that health remains, health flourishes, because, you know, healthy things grow right and someone who wants to be sure that the process that they're doing for you is going to nurture and even be sustainable long term. So I have to say this new gal has this is a mindset, and I've done this for often on for oh, probably more years, and I wanna confess to you you know I'll get tired of it and just stop doing it. And then there's a special event and I'll start doing it again. But out of all of the nail techs that I have had over the years, she is the first, the first one that has talked about nail health, what it is, what it needs to be and what she is going to do. So my nails are looking better for all of you that really wanted to know that.Margie: 9:37

But what I wanna challenge us with as ministry leaders is we can do the tasks, we can get it done. We can write a sermon, we can visit people, we can do our sermon, planning for the next, whatever. We can do all of the tasks, but are we doing them in a way that health remains and this is our personal health, our sanity, our ability to keep on, keeping on? Are we doing our task in a way that our soul is nurtured and that we can sustain this long term? Or are we just limping through the next holy season barely and we just might collapse for who knows how long after we are done? So this is my challenge, I think.Margie: 10:36

Right now we're still in a lentish kind of season, and so Easter is upon us, and it was a quick jump this year between Christmas and Easter. Easter came early this year, so I just have had concern about how well pastors are making sure that the tasks that they are called to do are done at a pace that is nurturing and sustainable and that our load is not beyond what is going to be healthy for us to sustain long term. So don't just blow through all the tasks going at warp speed just to get it done, but slow down and make sure that you're working at a pace that is long term sustainable. So that's your, that is your nail tech challenge for today and for the guys that are listening, you get high marks. If you made it this far, I would give you a gold star, but I would challenge you to say I need to make sure that I'm doing my tasks as a ministry leader in a healthy way.Margie: 12:02

Are you wondering whether your fatigue, your lack of motivation, your lack of interest is burnout Maybe? I just wanted to let you know that I have a resource on the website, margie bryce dot com that's b-r-y-c-e margie bryce dot com, and it is a burnout questionnaire, free for you to download, and kind of self-assess and get a sense of where you're at. There are questions that not only ask about what you're going through, but maybe how often you're experiencing it, and that's that's kind of a key to where you might be, because you have to know where you are in order to chart a course forward. And most pastors who experience pastors and ministry leaders who experience burnout rarely know that that's where they're at until they're well into it. And if you're unsure about that little statistic, so far, everybody that I've interviewed on this podcast who has experienced burnout when I asked that kind of question, they're like, yeah, I didn't know that's where I was at. So again, go to margiebricecom. It's on the homepage of the website and you can get your burnout questionnaire and kind of see where you're at.Margie: 13:40

Hey friends, the Crabby Pastor podcast is sponsored by Bryce Art Glass and you can find that on Facebook.Margie: 13:49

But I will have some other ways that you can be a part of getting the word out about the importance of healthy self-care for ministry leaders. Hey, thanks for listening. It is my deep desire and passion to champion issues of sustainability in ministry and for your life, so I'm here to help. I stepped back from pastoral ministry and I feel called to help ministry leaders create and cultivate sustainability in their lives so that they can go the distance with God and whatever plans that God has for you. I would would love to help, I would consider it an honor and, in all things, make sure you connect to these sustainability practices you know, so that you don't become the Crabby pastor.

View Details

Join Margie Bryce and special guest Michael Bischoff from Soul Leader on The Crabby Pastor podcast as they explore the delicate balance of ministry and self-care. They discuss the transformative process of faith deconstruction, likening it to a messy yet rewarding kitchen renovation. One way to become more resilient can be through questioning and owning our faith. The episode also addresses the crisis of immaturity of faith in North American Christianity and offers practical strategies for recognizing and preventing burnout in ministry. Tune in for inspiring insights on leading with grace and nurturing a thriving ministry.Support the show

🦀 🦀 🦀

Find regular support on my Facebook group by clicking HERE.Connect with me about COACHING and Workshops on self-care HERE.

TranscriptMargie: 0:01

This is your invitation to join me in my glass workshop for a video series where I am going to do a stained glass project while I talk to you about sustainability and building sustainability into your heart and into your life. So I am going to be doing my art, a self-care, and I'm going to invite you into that space with me and I'm going to chat. and to about and I'm going to show you how I create, and there's a nifty, nifty analogy. Stained glass seems to be a very good metaphor for what I want to talk about. So I'd love for you to join me. To do that. To opt in, I'll need you to email me at Crabby Pastor at gmail dot com. So you won't want to miss this. You definitely won't want to miss this. So make a plan to join me in the glass workshop.

Margie Bryce, here again as your host of the Crabby Pastor podcast, and I think this topic kind of fits with the title of the podcast a bit, you know, because it seems like deconstruction is a hot topic right now. I'm hearing a lot about that. You see a lot about it on social media. I've had friends kind of deconstructing, you know, or at least that's what they're saying it is. But I'm here again with Michael Bischoff of Soul Leader and we're going to chat some about deconstruction. I'm sure I'm going to learn a few things along the way. I have impressions about what all is taking place. But, Michael, so you want to weigh in? Do you have an official definition? You know we'll be Augustinian, isn't it? No, Aristotelian. That's what it is To give the definition first right.

Michael: 3:04

Yeah, that's good, Margie, thanks. I don't know if I have an official definition. I know that deconstruction in its purest sense comes out of postmodern philosophy, but it's moved to the place over the last I would say 20 to 25 years where it began to be discussed in faith circles, and that's why I think there's a lot of fear around it in many places because of it coming out of postmodern philosophy. Many people don't know what to do with that or they're worried that that's so tied to secularism or is going to lead people of faith down a bad road. I don't see it that way. I mean, of course it could, but I just don't see it that way. Literally, it just means to take something apart, right, to deconstruct something, I mean. And if you think about it in a fun way as children we love to take things apart, in fact, especially when little boys love to break things then you don't take them apart, but in a good sense. Maybe Legos is a better example. You might build something, but then you'll take it apart and you'll put it back together. So if we see it that way, there's something good in it, or even something like a kitchenery model. You realize, when you buy a house. That kitchen is dated, you know, was built at a certain time and at some point along the way it's going to need to be deconstructed and something new is going to be put in its place. Most people are okay with that, but I think that the danger comes, or the fear comes, when the assumption is that what if it doesn't get put back together? What if the person has a crisis of faith and it takes them away from their walk with Jesus? Or it doesn't get put back together and then damage is done. And I just don't see it that way. I started deconstructing way back in 1991. I went through a time of eight months of clinical depression that you and I had a chance to talk about on previous podcasts, and that was the hardest time in my life. But it was also the best time in my life.

Margie: 5:06

You were deconstructing then before it was cool to deconstruct.Michael: 5:09

Exactly yeah, the word wasn't even really used.Margie: 5:12

Is it really cool to deconstruct? Because I know some people that have gone through a process or still are in the midst of a process and it don't look fun.Michael: 5:22

Right. Yeah, no, it's often not fun, especially in those very early days. My eight months of clinical depression was not fun, but I had come from a background that was very legalistic, very rigid, very controlling and that had sent me down a very bad road. In fact, that was one of the causes that set me up for my eight months of clinical depression was that rigid background. So if I hadn't started deconstructing that, if I had stayed in it I have not I have no idea where I would have ended up. I don't think it would have been a good place. I know I wouldn't have stayed in ministry, I would have been gone. I don't know if I would have been able to keep my marriage or stayed in my marriage. I already changed tons of my friends because certain friends didn't have the ability to. I don't want to say keep up with where I was going, because it sounds like I was doing it right and they were doing it wrong. It pulls people apart. It has a tendency to do that. But I became so thankful for new friends that felt maybe more safe for me. They had the ability to give grace, they had the ability to listen and have compassion and empathy for what I was going through. I needed that. Those are all really good things that came out of my deconstruction. The other one was with Scripture and the Bible. I came from a background that was highly committed to the authority, inspiration, infallibility inerrancy.

Margie: 6:48

I was going to go there. Are we talking inerrancy?

Michael: 6:51

All the above, and so I love studying the Bible, I love God's word. But when you come from a background that's too rigid, you don't have the latitude sometimes to see scripture with a different lens. And there are multiple ways to interpret scripture. I mean we call that hermeneutics, right? Those of us pastors that do the science of hermeneutics, we know that, but many of us at least. I was only taught one method of hermeneutics literal interpretation. I didn't realize that there were upwards of seven different methods of interpretation since the early centuries of the church. So it wasn't until I started deconstructing that I had some freedom to realize that scripture is so life-giving. But scripture means far more than just what one person's interpretation of it is, and so that's what caused me some curiosity about the road I would go down and what would deconstruction look like. And I was thankful that I got a chance to do that with some wonderful people, some wonderful leaders who were several steps ahead of me in doing this. So when I think of the concept of deconstruction in my own life because I've been doing it now for over 30 years I have nothing but positive thoughts about it?Margie: 8:09

Sure, and I do know, like I said, I know some people who are just struggling away with pulling it all apart and kind of looking at the pieces and then putting it all together. But the big overarching picture that you are painting here, then, is more life-giving than what some people and sometimes this was something that I found in my dissertation work where pastors like the idea that we are servants of Christ and they like the idea, they love the idea of being an authentic representation of Jesus. The challenge is to get from point A to point B. To get to the authentic representation of Jesus, you have to go through the muck and the mire and I guess you would say struggles and trials and challenges. And as I listen to your life-giving deconstruction piece, I'm thinking could it be that people will step into a deeper and richer faith? Or could it be? I remember a professor I had at Ashland in my doctoral studies, terry Wardle. I think it was page two of his book. I knew I was going to just love this material because he was very honest. He said Christianity in North America is in a crisis of immaturity. And so, as I'm listening to you, with the shifts and changes that have gone on as things get pulled apart and people have said in some instances the faith that I was raised in as a young person and the things that I was told and sometimes those things were platitudes or little sayings that Christians say to one another that in certain instances kind of fall apart or they seem pretty lame. Or like a ministry friend that I had and I'm not in connection with him anymore, but he had a child that was born with pretty severe autism and the church I think they intended to be helpful, but some of the pious platitudes that they offered to him as a parent who was very challenged with the situation, just seemed very insufficient. Right, that's so true?

Michael: 10:31

Yeah, I think often in many church backgrounds and I'm sure your listeners are coming from all kinds of different church backgrounds but we're often taught what to believe or even how to think, rather than to be taught. What questions do we need to ask? I want to be taught to think, but not told how I need to think, and so I think the whole aspect of asking important questions. What did Jesus do in his ministry? He was so likely to ask someone a question rather than just give them an answer. And yet in churches we get very uptight about making sure we give all the answers when in reality, we don't even sometimes know the right questions. So there's a freedom that comes in being able to ask those questions. It reminds me of as children grow up and into those teenage years, and then they get a little more rebellious. Some of the reason this psychologist might tell you children get rebellious is because they need to spread those wings a little bit. They need to start thinking for themselves and they need to start learning how to ask good questions. To me, that's good discipleship. That's just what a good sanctification process looks like, when you realize, oh, I thought I knew that, but I really don't know, and I need to ask a whole bunch of other questions in order to come at this with more wisdom. So if we don't do that, we stay stuck in a place, and I see a lot of that stuckness, especially in some of the seminary students that I've been teaching for over the last 17 years that if there's a stuckness there, there's a choice. You either choose to stay stuck or you have to break that open and go. Okay, I'm willing to go on a journey. This might be a little scary, but it could be really good if I start asking new questions, allow other people to ask me questions and realize I don't have to have all the answers.

Margie: 12:22

Right? Well, what you talked about is knowing as a mental ascent, as opposed to knowing in the fiber of your being. And what I'm wondering is I'm listening to you. I'm thinking, wow, are we talking about people, instead of them just spewing what was spewed to them the Christian talking points, if you will that they are coming from a deeper ownership of these faith values and they're talking about it from a lived perspective instead of a repeated repeating what other people have said to them. And not that what people are saying is incorrect, but it's different if you own it for yourself rather than somebody else is owning it, and I'm borrowing it Right.

Michael: 13:19

Yeah, no, that's really good. If we haven't thought through it on our own, is it really even ours? And so we need ownership of our own faith and our own belief systems. And if we don't have that because someone just told us believe that, do that. And then when life starts bumping up against it and you realize that didn't work, it didn't go as planned, that's a real difficult space to be. So that's where I think, again, deconstruction is one of these post-pandemic realities we're facing today, because the pandemic opened up a whole new opportunity to rethink things, if we allow it to. And some of us are scared of that, some of us don't want to do that, some of us don't have the grace or support in our lives to do that. But when you give yourself the ability to do it, I just think good growth can come out of it, and we don't have to live with fear. We can't control anyone else as pastors. I don't know about those that are listening, but I was learned to be a great controller and literally to manipulate people. And then some say you know, manipulation can be good.

Margie: 14:26

Wow. Did you learn that? Did they teach you that in seminary? Here's manipulation 101.

Michael: 14:33

Well, and some people would then even say you know, manipulation can be good, right, chiropractors manipulate our spine to put things back into place. So I agree, you know, I love my chiropractor. But I think there's a line we can all cross in our leadership when it's more about control and trying to get people to do things, rather than to connect people with Jesus, help people to have the relationship with God that God wants to have with them, and then they, from that place of freedom, are able to walk that journey over a period of time. And that's the way I see it today as being far, far more helpful. That, as you're deconstructing, to know it's just part of the process, right. Often it's looked at kind of in triads that there's a time of construction where you're building something, and then there's a deconstruction where you have to kind of tear it apart, but then there's a reconstruction or a putting back together. That's good. There's other ways of looking at it. There's order, disorder, reorder. Walter Brigham and talks about even the psalms of orientation, disorientation and reorientation. And it's sole leader, it resources our ministry. We like to talk about formation, deformation and reformation. So I think what that shows is it's a process, right, we're never meant to be stuck in a thing called deconstruction, but hopefully we have the freedom over our entire lives to walk a journey knowing that God's going to be there with us and hopefully we have some faithful friends that'll be with us as well and knowing that the way through it is going to be rough, but so so, so good, right, if you hang. Like I said, I've been deconstructing for over 30 years, but as I look back on the times, places and people that helped me do it, I am incredibly thankful for that process and I'm so glad I didn't stay stuck where I was in my 20s.

Margie: 16:20

Sure, yeah, aren't we all? Yeah, aren't we all? Well, so I have a couple of questions. First off, what troubles you about deconstruction?

Michael: 16:33

Well, I'd say the first thing that troubles me is when people are just reactive against it and throw it out, because then anybody who sees themselves needing it or are in the midst of it, they don't feel supported. So I mean, I know that's the mind of me, the direct answer to your question that you were looking for, but what troubles me is when people who are controlling them come alongside and disallow people from deconstruction. That's probably the main thing that I think that I would feel. The other thing I think there's a sadness to realize that some people, for whatever reason maybe they've come from a spiritually abusive background I had a good degree of that in my early days as well but to realize they might not stay with their faith. And I think that is what scares many people and for me it brings sadness, because I know you can't just control people into staying in their faith. You have to love them in their faith so that they stay and they feel your support and your grace and your kindness and your compassion and your ability to walk with them over a long period of time. But I know a lot of people are chucking that. I know a book that came out a couple of years ago, brian McLaren wrote a book Do I Stay Christian? And it was an interesting book because, as I read it, he has three sections in the book. The first one is 10 chapters on answering that question Do I stay Christian? And the answer is no, I don't. Because he gives 10 reasons. And when you read this historical overview of Christianity and all of the incredibly difficult, hurtful things that Christians have done to others throughout history the Crusades being a very popular example, something like that you come out the other end and you just want to go. I'm done, I can't stay a Christian anymore. Then the next section is the yes section, and he gives 10 chapters why I would say yes, do I stay Christian? And then you read those 10 chapters and you're like, oh, my goodness, this is the most beautiful religion. God is incredible. Following Jesus is the best way Scripture is in. You go and now you're stuck with these two tensions of realizing all the damage that's been done but all the beauty that's contained in it. And then the third section is how? So no matter where you end up with your answer to one of those questions, how do I do it? How do I walk forward? And I think that really summarizes well the deconstruction journey is for every person to have to face the hard realities of their own religious background, their own religion, their own church, even the things that we have taught. I've had to repent of the things that I have taught, because to me, repentance is a great thing. Repentance is just changing your thinking about your thinking. It's thinking differently. I've had to repent of so many things in my life and the things that I've taught, but if I hadn't again, I would have stayed stuck. And now it's a matter of and I think that's what reconstruction looks like is to ask the how? Question. How do I move forward with what I know now? So I get worried, sometimes a little bit, knowing that, or maybe more sad, that some will chuck it prematurely and that makes me sad to think about.

Margie: 19:37

Right, because we don't talk about struggle in faith.

Michael: 19:41

I mean, if you start reading Ignatian.

Margie: 19:45

If you start reading some of the months, a lot of people in that era and time when they talked about struggle in faith and that it's okay and that it's true of what's going to happen in your journey, and asking questions I mean, I've been in Christian environments I'm talking about early on in my Christian years and I came to faith in Christ in my mid-20s is asking questions. There were some situations that I was in where if someone asked a certain question, everybody would yeah. I'm like I know for me, as I stepped into ministry leadership, I loved, loved working with what I called the rookies, because they were just ass. They didn't even have the knowledge that, oh, that's a question that we can't ask and we should be able to ask questions and we should be able to struggle together and wrestle together, but one challenge that we have is a little bit of polarization in that, if I'm right about this, that means that people who hold the opposing perspective are wrong, and you know, in the United States of America, we all like to be right. That's a big deal here, and so it's a challenging situation to ask those kinds of questions.

Michael: 21:12

Yeah, there is. That's so good. And you reminded me of something too that we don't give enough latitude for struggle and we often don't even know how to name it. About five years ago, I took the first sabbatical I'd ever taken. Thirty years of ministry, I'd never taken a sabbatical.

Margie: 21:27

Yet.Michael: 21:27

I coach pastors all the time. You need to take a sabbatical, I do that. And they'd be like hey, michael, what kind of stuff would you do on your sabbatical? And they'd be like you need to ask Joe about his sabbatical, or Fred about you know, or who has Vivian about her sabbatical or whatever, because I've done a horrible job taking. So 30 years of ministry, no sabbatical. I finally take one and this is what I was incredibly burned out and I knew burnout was coming because I deal with burned out leaders all the time. That's another post pandemic reality we could talk about in the future.

Margie: 21:53

Yeah, for sure.

Michael: 21:54

I was pretty burnt out and I knew I needed this sabbatical. Then, nine days into my sabbatical, my mom died. She had been dying a long, slow death over three years. She had dementia and it was a huge loss. But for some reason she had such faith and was such a woman of prayer and had so much love that when I saw her go through suffering for three years it sent me into a bit of a crisis of faith. I didn't say that a lot, because when you deal with pastors it's like not always real popular to be able to say you know, hey, I'm going through a crisis of faith right now as I watch my mom die, a death that seemed very unfair and as a result of that, god seemed very absent in my life for not just months but a couple of years. And that's often called a dark night of the soul. We get that language from St John of the Cross, the 16th century writer, and people sometimes don't realize that all of those things are normal Burnout is normal, crisis of faith is normal, dark night of the soul is normal. I just had them all together, which made it really, really challenging.

Margie: 22:54

Asking questions is normal.

Michael: 22:56

Asking questions is normal. Going through that time was so transformational for me because I really did want to come out the other side of that time of deconstruction, which I could call it. I kind of look at that sabbatical it was back in 2018 as kind of maybe not the last phase of my deconstruction, but the most significant, where so much change happened and it did take a couple of years to work through that. I'm still processing it, but I'm so thankful for it because I do a lot of counseling, a lot of coaching, rather, with pastors who are going through burnout, who are going through phases of their life where there's definitely a dark night of the soul. Pastors don't know who they can say that to. Like God seems really absent. You can't say that to your congregation They'll fire you.

Margie: 23:41

And certainly not from the pulpit.

Michael: 23:43

Yeah, right, yeah. I'm really thankful for that time of deconstruction. I'm thankful for the reconstruction that's been coming in the last five years as a result of having to go to some of those places. It's all been really good. For me it doesn't feel good, but it has produced some wonderful results in my own life and in my own faith.

Margie: 24:03

Yeah, and that is where this authenticity of faith, an authentic representation of Jesus, starts to emerge. I think that's a helpful thing, because there's a depth, there's a maturity, there's some wisdom from learning on the rough road. What we say is to go to the school of hard knocks. Some Christians think that once you become a Christian, that's it there's no pain, no suffering, there's no big questions. I know I've said on this podcast before, my niece's little boy is like five and he has a brain tumor and it's something that would be curable, easy, but it's right in the middle of his head. They can't operate. And so I'm like, okay, this is going on the list of things I will be asking Jesus about, because we encounter those. That's real living, real life. I used to look at people that had never been through a lot of stuff and think, well, they just are much better at faith than I am, I guess, and that's not so. That's not so at all.

Michael: 25:17

And sometimes some of these big questions really take us to different places and you are absolutely right about then needing people to walk with you, cb, and I still think there are things pastors can do, rather than the extremes of I'm gonna bat deconstructionism because I don't understand it or I'm fearful of it and I don't want my people to fall into it. That's one side, or the other one is many just don't know what to do with it, so they either just don't talk about it, they kind of avoid the subject. I say no to both of those things. I say what can pastors do? If it's your own deconstruction, lean into it. Lean into it. Read some books on it. It's okay to not feel the same about your faith that you did 10 or 20 or 30 or whatever years ago. Find some faithful people to walk with you. Maybe it's a therapist. You have some deep things in your emotional formation that need to be addressed. Find a therapist or counselor, deal with it. If not, find a coach that can help you think about it differently and walk with you through it. But just lean into it. If the deconstruction is in your church, I would say or that's where your fear is. Cultivate an environment that allows people to ask questions that allow people to change and allow people to grow. That's what you as a leader need to do. And just like children. Then when they reach that stage they will return and have relationship with parents who have allowed them to stray a bit. If you stay too rigid, those are the kind of relationships that people go. I'm out of here. I want nothing to do with this place. So I do think there's some fear. That's logical or normal in this. But I think if pastors realize they can cultivate an environment where it's good to ask questions and so I say in your teaching, then, pastors, in your teaching, don't shy away from difficult topics, especially those topics that people are struggling with in their deconstruction. But yet those might be the very ones that we feel the most fearful of, like people's views of God. That seems to be a big one, like the brain tumor analogy. Why does God allow suffering? Why would God allow this in a child? Why does God allow this? Pastors have to deal with those things and while there aren't perfect answers, you can cultivate an environment of being able to discuss those things, wrestle with them and doing so in a very biblical way, I think. But it's going to take some work right. So I encourage pastors to engage it, lean into it for themselves in their church, cultivate an environment and even in their teaching, look for ways to discuss these things.

Margie: 27:57

I mean, there's no way you're going to be able to wave very dust and have deconstruction go away. It's something that people are working through, dealing with. And you look in scripture where the disciples ask Jesus, that man who was born blind, what sin did his parents commit? We can look at that kind of a passage and go well, that's a silly question. He didn't do anything, he just was born blind. So when the people around us are struggling, not to cast aspersions on what might be going on in their life or what did their parents do, or anything like that, but just to embrace them and offer them some grace and support and be compassionate to one another, offer that kind of compassion, saying you know, I've been there. Even if you haven't been there, you still have to offer compassion. I would say CB.

Michael: 28:54

I totally agree, and I often ask pastors this question do you know what the first heresy was in the church? And occasionally I'll get one person in the group that might know but most don't know. It was dosatism, which was the belief that Jesus was not fully human. It's interesting, right, you think it'd be like that he wasn't fully God, but the belief that Jesus wasn't fully human was kind of the first heresy in the church that needed to be addressed. Well, I think this is significant in this discussion about deconstruction, because deconstruction helps you embrace and understand your humanness, maybe better than anything else does. My wife and I have had a few conversations about this. In it We've said to each other you know, in our early days we were just so given a vision of sometimes perfection in a very unhealthy way, in a legalistic way, striving for something that was unachievable. So we spent so many years, even decades, trying to be perfectly divine, perfectly godly. At the same time we did not understand what it meant to be human. I think God wants us to understand both. God wants us to understand how we strive to be more like God is like Jesus lived with such a wonderful example and at the same time embrace our humanness and humanity, and deconstruction allows you to do that, I think, in some of the best ways.

Margie: 30:20

Yep, and we are mere mortals here, even though we're walking with Jesus right. Well, thanks for this discussion and I've enjoyed it. I really have get to just hash it about and dissect. Deconstruction Isn't that silly Sort of. But thank you very much for being willing to come on and give us your take and blessings on your ministry.

Michael: 30:48

Thank you, Margie.

Margie: 30:51

Are you wondering whether your fatigue, your lack of motivation, your lack of interest is burnout Maybe? I just wanted to let you know that I have a resource on the website, margiebryce dot com, that's B-R-Y-C-E margiebryce dot com, and it is a burnout questionnaire, free for you to download and kind of self assess and get a sense of where you're at. There are questions that not only ask about what you're going through but maybe how often you're experiencing it and that's that's kind of a key to where you might be, because you have to know where you are in order to chart a course forward. And most pastors who experience pastors and ministry leaders who experience burnout rarely know that that's where they're at until they're well into it. And if you're unsure about that little statistic, so far, everybody that I've interviewed on this podcast who has experienced burnout, when I asked that kind of question, they're like, yeah, I didn't know, that's where I was at. So again, go to margiebryce dot com it's on the homepage of the website and you can get your burnout questionnaire and kind of see where you're at.

Hey friends, the Crabby Pastor podcast is sponsored by Bryce Art Glass and you can find that on Facebook. I make stained glass, that's part of my self-care and also by Bryce Coaching, where I coach ministry leaders and business leaders, and so the funds that I generate from coaching and from making stained glass is what is supporting this podcast and I will have opportunities for you to be a part of sponsoring me and, as always, you can do the buy me a cup of coffee thing in the in the show notes. But I will have some other ways that you can be a part of getting the word out about the importance of healthy self-care for ministry leaders. Hey, thanks for listening. It is my deep desire and passion to champion issues of sustainability in ministry and for your life, so I'm here to help. I stepped back from pastoral ministry and I feel called to help ministry leaders create and cultivate sustainability in their lives so that they can go the distance with God and whatever plans that God has for you. I would love to help, I would consider it an honor and, in all things, make sure you connect to these sustainability practices you know, so that you don't become the Crabby pastor.

View Details

Join podcast host Margie Bryce and special guest Michael Bischoff from Soul Leader Resources as they delve into the art of constructing a sustainable life in ministry. In this enlightening discussion, Margie and Michael explore the beauty of self-care and the vital importance of integrating sustainability into our vocational callings. Michael bravely shares his personal journey battling depression, offering a beacon of hope to fellow leaders navigating the complexities of holistic wellness in the wake of COVID-19.

Experience the raw honesty of midnight anxieties and the suffocating grip of depression as we candidly address the unseen struggles endured by many spiritual leaders. Together, we explore the crucial roles of therapists, support groups, and trusted 'soul friends' in navigating these turbulent waters. Additionally, we uncover the unexpected sanctuary found in coaching, offering valuable guidance to leaders grappling with life's relentless pressures.

As we draw this poignant series to a close, the focus shifts to the essential pillars of self-care that safeguard against the looming threat of burnout. Margie shares invaluable resources such as a burnout questionnaire and her unwavering commitment to coaching, and empowering leaders to cultivate sustainable self-care practices. This episode transcends mere conversation; it serves as a roadmap for thriving in ministry without succumbing to the pitfalls of becoming the dreaded "Crabby Pastor."Support the show

🦀 🦀 🦀

Find regular support on my Facebook group by clicking HERE.Connect with me about COACHING and Workshops on self-care HERE.

TranscriptMargie: 0:01

So we're talking about sustainability in ministry. So how do the pieces of your life fit together? Do they fit together well and things are humming along just fine, or are there some pieces that are tight or absent or just not fitting the bill? This is your invitation to join me in my glass workshop for a video series, where I am going to do a stained glass project while I talk to you about sustainability and building sustainability into your heart and into your life. So I am going to be doing my art, which is a form of self-care, and I'm going to invite you into that space with me and I'm going to chat. I'm going to chat about self-care and I'm going to show you how I create, and there's a nifty, nifty analogy. Stained glass seems to be a very good metaphor for what I want to talk about, so I'd love for you to join me. To do that, opt in, I'll need you to email me at CrabbyPastor at gmail dot com. That's CrabbyPastor at gmail dot com. So you won't want to miss this. You definitely won't want to miss this, so make a plan to join me in the glass workshop. This is Margie Bryce with the KrabbyPaster Podcast, and I have a guest with me today. We're going to talk about anxiety and depression. You know anxiety, I think, whether you're a ministry leader or not, I happen to think that that's one of the biggest issues in all of everybody. Really, how well we deal with our anxiety. If we don't deal with it, what happens? And then depression, and certainly post COVID and we still are, I think will be post COVID for a long time. So that is something that I think ministry leaders, especially in light of all that, are still dealing with. So I have Michael Bischoff here with he is with sole leader, and I'm going to have Michael introduce himself and give a brief snapshot of who he is and how he serves.

Michael: 3:03

Thanks, Margie, great to be with you today. Yeah, I was a pastor for 30 some years and in the midst of that I ended up going through some depression, which I'll talk about here in a second. But it was really that time in my life that helped me realize my true calling was to come alongside pastors and churches and other ministries and to help them finish well, to help them move toward wholeness. So that's what I get to do full-time. In the year 2000, I founded an organization called Soul Leader Resources and we work alongside pastors, missionaries, seminary students, denominations, nonprofit organizations, anyone where there's a need. We don't have a one-size-fits-all approach. Our goal is to come alongside and help leaders move from the fragmentation in their lives toward wholeness, and we do that through coaching, consulting, training, virtual direction, counseling, all kinds of things, and we absolutely love doing it. But yeah, this post-pandemic era that we're in has made things really challenging and there are a number of post-pandemic realities that we could focus on that every single day I'm experiencing pastors having to deal with and many of us just don't know how to deal with them.

Margie: 4:18

So then you know we have some topics that at some point we will get to, whether it's in this podcast or subsequent ones, that are post-pandemic realities, but even anxiety and depression are. That was an issue before. H ow would you say it's changed post-pandemic.

Michael: 4:42

Yeah, it's good. I mean, many of us, when we first heard about COVID and what this thing was becoming, had no idea what we were about to get into right. So there was some anxiety just learning. Oh okay, this isn't just in our country, this is global, this is around the world and that's a normal level of anxiety. Anxiety is just a clean of fear or dread or uneasiness. We all get it. It's very normal to have anxiety. But what we realize is people as a whole, our congregations as a whole, society as a whole started experiencing higher levels of anxiety than we'd probably ever experienced in our lifetime. And that's how it changed. And if you know anything about family systems therapy, it's really important to look at the anxiety in a system, so not just our own individual anxiety, because we don't want to minimize that at all. Many folks I mean even pastors I've talked to have had to go on an anti-anxiety medication because the anxiety has gone through the roof. But at the same time, our churches, our organizations have a level of anxiety that we need to pay attention to as well, and that's what's really changed. I think, both going through the pandemic and in the post-pandemic world, we have higher levels of anxiety, and for very obvious reasons and I want to say up front too I'm not a therapist. So it's important to say that I would have loved to have been a therapist. I do have a doctoral degree, but I didn't do it in that Mine's a more practical degree, but so it is important to refer to professionals when we talk about especially individual anxiety and what to do. But every single day I'm talking with leaders or dealing with churches whose levels of anxiety within their church, on their board, wherever the case would be have become so extreme that they just don't know what to do about it. So that's why I started talking about it more, because I'm a big believer that the more we talk about something, just that externalization process is so healthy, is so good to be able to discuss.

Margie: 6:44

Sure, and there's lots of reasons, realistic reasons, why anxiety can be high. Whether you're looking at, okay, the church I have now is not the church that I had before the pandemic. People have different responses to change the changes that had to take place because of the pandemic, and then now people want to go back to the comfort zone of whatever that looked like, right, right Churches you know, have not made it out of the 20th century and into the 21st century. And the fact that it's not that, the pace of change, well, it is accelerating at a faster pace today than, say, it did in the nineteen, fifties, nineteen, sixties, some what? Because of technology, for a lot of reasons. So, the acceleration of change, you come away, I think, anyway, of having the sense like what's going on, like at the very beginning of the pandemic you know what's going on, what's gonna happen here, and so you, you had down that road. What would you say are some indicators that your anxiety is something that you should get some help with.

Michael: 8:06

Yeah, yeah, that's good to know. I think when we really need to pay attention to the amount of loss and grief and trauma that we're experiencing, sometimes, depending on our personality, some of us want to kind of sweep that under the rug and be the tough individual, and, yeah, we really can't do that, and so we need to be able to understand that our brains can handle normal amounts of loss and grief and trauma. You know, if you go out and get a little fender bender, that's real frustrating, but but that's a level of loss you can deal with. It's it's very short lived, but psychologists will tell us we've been living through a time of complex trauma that our brains don't know how to deal with. And so, yeah, there are different levels, and so I think to pay attention to the amount of levels of those things in our life. I know for many people they had layers of loss and grief and trauma. It wasn't just the pandemic but they, if they knew someone that passed, if they had some health issues in their life, if there was an economic downturn, all of those things we need to pay attention to that. They don't that in our churches and you just refer to it, margie, but the landscape has changed within our churches. Right Immediately, attendance was an issue. Most churches I know or work with their attendance is is about half, some even a third of what it used to be. That's changed. Giving has been down, not in all places, but in many places the finances are a different reality and the expectations that people have of leadership of their church, of their pastor, etc. Has totally changed. So, understanding how the landscape has changed and it's not going back, like you said, we need to kind of accept that and go. How are we going to move forward? And I think in the era of, like, the personal expectations and I learned this from our mutual friend Dr Chris Adams- who does research in this area right of clergy, wholeness and renewal and flourishing. But even before the pandemic, researchers found out that the average pastor has 65 core competencies that were expected of them. Now that's ridiculous, because most jobs do not require that level of core competencies, and that was before the pandemic. That was before pastors had to learn how to live stream their services and do many other things that have come out of it. And then another one that is kind of an overlapping issue we could talk about. Also, just in and of itself, is the polarization in congregations increased hugely. There's a lot of reasons for that, but I used to think Jesus praise in John 17 let them be one, and it's all about unity. How do we move toward unity? And yet during the pandemic, we moved away from unity, it seems, not only within congregations, even denominations. Some denominations are splitting over issues, as most of us are aware of, and all of a sudden the polarization is so intense that most of us have not been trained as leaders how to deal with that kind of polarization. And that's hard, because we want to see unity, we want to see people get along. We all don't have to agree, we all don't have to be alike. In fact, that's what makes church kind of fun is being in a space where we can have great community around Christ without having to agree about everything. But that has changed as well. So those are some of the things that I'm seeing real practically that are so hard for leaders to deal with.

Margie: 11:31

Right, and I know I think you myself I would say I'm a practical theologian kind of person as well. So, yeah, you've listed off some great Wow, not great, I feel bad saying right, you've listed off some interesting aspects of things that can trigger anxiety and contribute to anxiety in ministry leaders, but at what point? What are some indicators that the anxiety level that you're experiencing is beyond what you can handle on your own?

Michael: 12:07

Yeah, yeah, that's so good you know. And that reminds me of the time I went through a time of eight months of clinical depression and I came from a background that said don't go to a counselor, that's secular humanism. So I didn't. This was early in my life, I was in my 20s and I didn't go get help and that was not good because I was staying up late at night. My wife would go to bed, I would stay up late because I didn't want to go to bed and because I knew I'd have to get up the next morning and there was a cycle of dread, almost if I thought you're going to stop the day the next day from showing up. I guess I don't know what I was thinking. I just, I just was trying to numb out. I literally would find a pizza place that had pizzas and I would order as late as possible, like one in the morning, and eat a big pizza, so it would keep me up even longer. So when you're finding yourself avoiding things like that, you know and yes, I had anxiety and I had depression, but I never experienced depression like that so if you see behaviors that you're you know are coming up in your life, that you're trying to avoid and run and you don't know where to turn, that's a danger sign. And I wasn't suicidal, but I did not want to talk to people. I was avoiding people. This is before email. Thank God that it was before email, because I would just not answer the phone and I would hide in my office and try to avoid people. So that's another one when you see the inability to interact in healthy ways. So those are some of the things you know that we need to look out for physical symptoms as well. You know difficulty sleeping and inability to have fun. This is called anhedonia. When you have the inability to experience pleasure. God wants us to experience pleasure. Creation and nature are created for that purpose, but often anhedonia is called a non-sadness depression, and so even you can be experiencing levels of these emotional consequences that you're not even aware of, and they can last for long periods of time. The good news is, they're able to find healing, and that's so important. I think both anxiety and depression are a couple of the emotional consequences that really are God-given gauges. Sometimes it can be God saying stop, listen to your soul, pay attention to what's making you sad, what are you running from Right, and don't bury it, because many of us can get busy and try to hide those things. Don't do that. They're indicating a need for change in some way, shape or form. And the other thing I say is don't go it alone. That advice I was given early was terrible advice about not seeing a therapist. Now we have therapists on our team at Soul Leader Resources for a reason because we want their expertise when we're dealing with leaders and churches that are facing very difficult circumstances. So, whether it's seeing a counselor or therapist or being part of a support group or even having what's sometimes called a soul friend, someone that you can just walk with and talk about the things you're facing, just don't go it alone. It's not that everybody needs medication for anxiety and depression. Some people do, and thank God that there are medications that can be extremely helpful. But I think the biggest thing when we're experiencing negative feelings like these, or what feel like negative feelings, is to be in community with someone, someone who's safe, someone you can talk to. As pastors, it's hard because we don't want to use our congregation as our therapist. You can't share everything. You can be honest and you can be vulnerable and authentic, and I think it's okay. I mean even 2 Corinthians 12, where the Apostle Paul says our strength is made perfect in weakness. It's okay to show our weakness, yet at the same time, we don't want to cross that line where our congregation is now acting as our therapist. So go get the help that you need to be able to talk to someone. I do a lot of coaching and that's some of the thing that happens in coaching Usually not with issues as severe as some of the things that counselors or therapists would see, but it's so fun to be able to help people every single day, talk about the needs in their life through coaching and to be able to get some of the help that they need.

Margie: 16:15

Sure, absolutely. In terms of depression, then. I know this was a few years ago, but I still think it's a relevant story to tell, so would you mind sharing that with us?

Michael: 16:29

Yeah, happy to do that. Yeah, I've gotten to share this story hundreds, if not thousands, of times and I feel like God gave it to me for a reason. So, yeah, in my very first full-time ministry experience, I was asked to be a youth pastor at a church. I was following a seminary professor that I knew, actually, who had been an interim pastor at this church and had just been asked to be their new senior pastor, and he had a chance to hire a bunch of new staff and he asked me in my 20s if I wanted to come and be a youth pastor. And I didn't really want to be a youth pastor, but I wanted to follow him. And I learned later that I was searching for a father figure in my life and I'd been doing that. I was raised in a single parent home and I never knew my dad. So there were many men in my life that were coaches or principals or youth pastors etc. That had sort of filled that need. Well, I thought I love this individual as a seminary professor, but when I joined this church staff, something was really different. Something was different than the seminary professor that I knew. All of a sudden, I was seeing things control and what I ended up learning was highly narcissistic behavior on the part of this individual. I really didn't even know what that meant at the time. A long story short, the board of that church ended up church disciplining that pastor for all the behaviors they saw. And I saw those same behaviors. I won't get into all the stories and all the details. It was very rough and took about six months period of time to go through all this. But the rest of the church staff all resigned. They thought the board was wrong and he had been treated unfairly. The lead pastor, but I didn't, so I stayed. Everybody else left and this was a church of about 350 people or so. I was still in seminary working on my master divinity degree at the time. They all left and the board didn't know what to do. So they turned to me. I'm still a youth pastor, but they said can you run the church, can you help us? And I was 25 at the time, I think maybe 26 at the time, and I'm like, oh, I didn't know what to do. So I said, yeah, I'll give it a shot. And so for the next year and a half I was basically their interim pastor, without that title and without much authority, but the church, thankfully, did stabilize. We called together some other young seminary students. We were like 26, 28, 30, and 32, all under 32. But they called the oldest one to be their lead pastor. Finally and he is still there till this day he's just actually retiring from that position some 35 years later. So the church stabilized, but I didn't. At the end of that time, with all the hits that I took, that's where I ended up going through eight months of what I now know was clinical depression, but I didn't get help for it and I didn't know where to turn and this was.

Margie: 19:15

This was where you were dreading tomorrow coming and yes during pizza at 1 am and exactly people and okay.

Michael: 19:23

Yeah, yeah, that's what happened back then and I didn't know what to do or where to turn and it was really dark and really frustrating. Thankfully I had a friend who came alongside and he and his wife had been getting some Christian counseling and there was some group counseling in our neighborhood. There was a group of actually a couple hundred people that was meeting at a hotel on a Monday night and they'd come together and for about two hours two, two and a half, three hours they would have a presentation on a topic that was in many cases I would call it a biblical topic. But I'm like, okay, I'm studying the Bible, but I never heard it put this way before, I'd never seen it this way before, and it was so helpful. And then we'd have another half hour or hour of questions and a response time and that was so helpful. And my wife and I kept going back, week after week after week. The first night we left my wife said to me she goes what do you think of this group? I said I think everybody in there is crazy and we kind of laughed at me, went on. But I went back because I wanted to hang out with our friends and because I was feeling like this friend was giving me grace and there was safety in that relationship in ways I'd never experienced before. The second week we went back. My wife said what do you think? I said, yeah, I don't think those people are so crazy. These discussions seem really helpful. The third week she asked me again so what do you think now? I said, honey, I think we're crazy and I think we need to keep going. And it was so helpful and for many years two, three, four years we would go every Monday night and that was safe for me because it didn't have some stigma of being counseling or therapy. It was just a big group of Christians getting together, talking about very important topics and doing so from a biblical perspective, and my whole life changed at that point.

Margie: 21:10

Wow, so you can go through depression and come out on the other side.

Michael: 21:16

Yes, definitely.

Margie: 21:17

And you can navigate anxiety well. I like to say the only people who don't experience anxiety are deceased right.

Michael: 21:31

Yeah, that's exactly right.

Margie: 21:33

It's a part of life. But there is a sense of pressure that I think pastors feel today, even this far post pandemic that you know. Now, okay, we're out and about this. Past Christmas season, advent season, we saw the big throngs coming again of people which the previous Advent we had not seen. People were still pretty cautious. People were, you know, feeling a little more emboldened to come out and be in groups. But at the same token, I fear that some pastors are feeling a sense of pressure then to get things back to the way they were before. Are you seeing some of that?

Michael: 22:25

Yeah, definitely. That's one reason I just keep saying strongly don't put that pressure on yourself. If they can get back to something new, something similar to what it was a similar church size or similar church budget that's great, but don't put your worth on that or your identity. So many pastors have their whole identity wrapped up in their role and literally because of all the pandemic realities, our role has been just hit strongly and I need to say don't do that, because that's what's going to send you to a dark place. You need to realize that. Yeah, as you continue on in your ministry and you know many are retiring early I'm doing a lot of transitional coaching for pastors, not only from one position to another, but even out of ministry into other areas of vocation. That's okay. I teach at a seminary for 17 years and the class I teach is on vocation and calling and how that our formation needs to intersect with those things so that we understand our vocation more deeply that we're ever God has us. We don't have to have a title that says pastor. Most pastors I know will do just as great a job pastoring in any area of job and they're still going to be pastoral people. They're just not going to get paid in the same way that a church paid them or whatever right and honestly, sometimes have more freedom outside of the church. So that's something we're seeing too. We're seeing kind of this transition out of professional, full-time paid ministry into other areas, but I think that's okay. The kingdom of God is bigger than the need to have you in a church pastor role and you are in the eyes of God. Your identity is in Christ, not in any role or with the title pastor in front of your name or as a door marker or something on your desk. It doesn't matter. God can use you in so many ways. So I talk a lot.

Margie: 24:25

There's so many ways that you can help people and some of the people that I've spoke to that have made that kind of transition. They have said things like I feel like I am having much more productive ministry now than what I did before, so there's a lot of opportunity out in the regular workforce to touch people and to be Jesus to other people. Like you said, you're not getting compensated for it and some people would argue against a paid professional pastorate anyway, necessarily. But for those who are remaining in the pastoral ranks, my training has told me to assess your strengths and work from those strengths. So if your congregation is one third or one half of whatever, the goal is not necessarily to get back to those bigger numbers, but the goal is to be productive With what you have, with the size group that you have. So I you know I would encourage some pastors to consider that. Yeah, yeah yeah, it's just retooling and reassessing your people, the gifts, the graces, the needs in your community, all of those things, the passion of your leadership and and to move forward and say that's who we were pre pandemic and this is who we are now, and step into that. Are you seeing that, those anything like that in your travels?

Michael: 26:04

Yeah, yeah, I am, and that's a good thing, you know. I like to use a second Corinthians for analogy. Where in that chapter, apostle Paul says right at the beginning do not lose heart. Where, in a time where I think that's a great message, do not lose heart. And then at the end of that chapter, I think it's for sixteen, he says again do not lose heart. And so you need to go. Hey, whenever there's bookends like that in a biblical chapter, there's a reason for that. So what's in the middle? And it's in the middle that he gives that great metaphor of a clay pot. We have this treasure in clay pots or earth and vessels or jars of clay, depending on the translation. And what happens with those clay pots is they get dropped, they get hit, they break, their fragile, and I think that's a great metaphor for us. So today I'm seeing very fragile people, and the war is why I like to use the word fragmented. We live in a very fragmented society and culture. We personally are experiencing a high degree of fragmentation, ourselves and in our own communities, but the goal is to move from fragmentation to wholeness. So what I'm seeing is a lot of fragmentation. That's okay, let's just talk about it. I love talking about it with leaders. There's nothing to be embarrassed about because everyone's experiencing it. But how do you move toward wholeness? And that's one of the things about our ministry as soul leader that we use as our paradigm for all the coaching and training. Really, everything we do is we look and say, okay, if we've got fragments, how do we pay attention to the parts and then move them toward wholeness? So our spiritual formation, for example, right, how do we think about God in new and different ways? In fact, that was one of the things that Intersected. The pandemic is, in some ways, that we'd never, we weren't prepared for. Was that? Is God in control? Why is God doing this? Why is God allowing a global pandemic? Why would seven million people plus die during, you know, a global pandemic? So we need to be able to think about God in good ways, and in new ways and in healthy ways. So our spiritual formation is so important. Our emotional formation. We will have realities like anxiety and depression, like we've just discussed, things that are going on inside us. We need to pay attention to those kind of things and hedonia, which we mentioned, the inability to feel pleasure. All these things come out. We need people in our lives. Like I said, don't go it alone. That's relational formation, so make sure you have some people in your life to support you along the way. Mental formation your mind, how you thinking. Is God on your mind? Is our healthy thoughts on your mind, or how much of your thinking is toxic thinking, and you won't know that unless you're talking about how you're thinking with some other safe people as well. Physical formation our bodies. How is our body, how are our bodies affected? They're hugely, hugely affected, especially in the areas of stress and adrenaline and stress that we're experiencing, and therefore we need to have good sleep patterns, good rhythms of rest. We need to pay attention to our nutrition and our movement or exercise and understand embodiment in the best possible way. So many what we do. An assessment with pastors, and almost always the lowest scoring one, is physical formation, the way we don't do a good job stewarding our bodies.

Margie: 29:20

Yeah, I'm so glad you use the word stewardship in there. That's what I tied to it, you know you want to be able to go the distance and live into your vocation and your call, yeah To do that. We've been given this vessel.

Michael: 29:35

Exactly. And then the last area we say is called missional formation. It's just what we've called it and to us that's the gospel living itself out through our lives. And if your life is falling apart, you know when my life was falling apart in eight months of clinical depression, my life wasn't good news. So I can talk to someone else, you know I can talk to someone else, but they look at me and they go. Why would I want to follow that God or why would I want to be part of your church, if your life's falling apart? Now I'll say at the same time we're not perfect, we're not striving for perfection here, we just want to be whole. But the gospel and understanding the kingdom of God is thriving at any time. Often we don't see it, but it's thriving. And so how we live out the gospel in the kingdom of God to me is what a healthy missional formation looks like. So those six dimensions are what we look at and I would encourage everybody listening to say yeah, if you're experiencing any of this anxiety and depression, don't just get too narrow minded but realize as a spiritual formation there's an emotional formation, there's a mental formation, relational formation, physical formation, missional formation. Pay attention to all the dimensions of how God created us as humans, listen deeply and know that it's going to be a process. It's going to be a journey as we move from a dualistic understanding of our lives to a more holistic understanding of our lives, and I think that's a great process and that's a process that I help leaders through and absolutely love helping leaders through. That does give you a sense of hope and a future and a different direction.

Margie: 31:02

And at the same time, it's not like it's a switch that you just flip and there you go. It takes some time to relearn and put your life in a different order so that you can live into it, and sometimes that's a little disorienting at first because your life feels differently. But at the end of the journey, or at least along the way even of your journey, you're going to start to sense some new life emerging as you go on your journey. Well, I want to thank you for these good words today, michael Bischoff, and I'm sure we are going to have you back. We came up with a list of some real post pandemic realities that ministry leaders are living through, so I just want to thank you very much for your good words here today.

Michael: 32:01

You're welcome, Margie. Thank you.

Margie: 32:05

Are you wondering whether your fatigue, your lack of motivation, your lack of interest is burnout Maybe? I just wanted to let you know that I have a resource on the website, margiebryce dot com that's B-R-Y-C-E margiebryce dot com and it is a burnout questionnaire, free for you to download, and kind of self-assess and get a sense of where you're at. There are questions that not only ask about what you're going through but maybe how often you're experiencing it and that's that's kind of a key to where you might be, because you have to know where you are in order to chart a course forward. And most pastors who experience pastors and ministry leaders who experience burnout rarely know that that's where they're at until they're well into it. And if you're unsure about that little statistic, so far, everybody that I've interviewed on this podcast who has experienced burnout, when I asked that kind of question, they're like, yeah, I didn't know that's where I was at. So again, go to margiebryce dot com it's on the homepage of the website and you can get your burnout questionnaire and kind of see where you're at.

View Details

Discover the transformative journey from the burdens of leadership to the oasis of self-care and sustainable ministry with Margie Bryce, host of the Crabby Pastor podcast. Dive into the tranquil sanctuary of her glass workshop as she extends a personal invitation to fellow ministry leaders seeking balance and renewal.

In this candid episode, Margie confesses her struggles and triumphs in asking for help, including the profound impact of extending hospitality during the pandemic. Through intimate revelations, she sheds light on the subtle signs of burnout often ignored and offers practical tools for self-assessment and proactive care.

Join Margie as she navigates the delicate dance between serving others and nurturing one's well-being, sharing insights to guide listeners toward a sustainable and revitalized approach to ministry. Don't miss this heartfelt discussion on cultivating endurance in your calling, ensuring your passion for service burns bright without burning out.Support the show

🦀 🦀 🦀

Find regular support on my Facebook group by clicking HERE.Connect with me about COACHING and Workshops on self-care HERE.

TranscriptsMargie, your host: 0:01

Well, this episode is a bit of a confession to you. You know, as the host of the Crabby Pastor podcast, I have a real passion and a real heart for you in your life and in your ministry so that you can go the distance with God, so that you can have sustainability, and, you know, that strong sense of peace that is promised by Jesus in the Scriptures. So that's kind of my MO.

But you know, I have to say, when I told one of my colleagues what I was doing this was very early on he said oh man, pastors, that's a really tough audience and I was sort of taken aback by that. But as time has played out, it is showing to be a bit of truth and it's really easy to sit and say you know, those people need to get in here. I mean, doesn't that sound familiar to you? All those people out there that don't know Jesus, they need to get in here. And same thing with what I am talking about in terms of self care, in terms of sustainability. Y'all need to get in here, you know, and no one has said to me well, let's just say this. Most people say to me this is really important, it's really important work. It encourages me to, you know, to continue to keep on keeping on. So I wanted to say that sometimes that mindset, you know, can overtake you All. Y'all need to get in here. And I wanted to share about a recent mind shift that I had, and it also speaks to another avenue of self-care, which is having someone on the journey with you to help point out some things that are obvious but you don't see about yourself because, as another friend has said to me, well, you can't be your own dentist, so sometimes you do have to have someone else help point some things out to you.

So I have to say that I meet monthly with a spiritual director and I also have a coach, but my spiritual director was the one recently that really, you know, was one of those sessions where you just kind of feel like you had your feet taken out from underneath you. I mean, she didn't mean harm and it was. It really wasn't harmful, but it was that kind of I guess epiphany might be the best word to describe it, the epiphany that I had. So, as some of you may have heard or may know, I'm going to restate here you know, during COVID we had another family living in our home and it it that's challenging stuff. It's challenging for anybody, even the most stable of individuals. This would be a challenge for because it's two different families, two different ways of doing life and seeing things and eating meals and all of this. It just was, and you know, towards the end of their stay here, I know I was pretty stressful and stressed out and I couldn't. I finally one day said to my husband I don't know what to do, I'm stuck, I don't know what to do. Now, mind you, I'm coaching people during this time, you know, because people do their, their work, their ministry, and you know stuff's always going on in the background, whatever we all deal with that as part of a caring kind of profession here.

So I just said those actual words, they came out and now when I talk to people about coaching, I often say you know, are you stuck? Do you need a new perspective on the same old, same old? You know, you just kind of feel like you're living Groundhog Day, you know, over and over and over and over, like the movie, but you're just not making any headway. So I, when I talk to people about coaching, I will say you know, if you're stuck, that's when you need a coach, and it's not like I didn't have a coach at that time. But the issue was that I realized was that I didn't seek help. I did not seek help. I knew I needed help, but I just was so enmeshed in what was going on and my thoughts and my emotions and trying to figure out the best way forward that would make Jesus happy that I could live with that. I, you know how do I, what do I do here, and I didn't ask for help on that specific thing that I was needing help with.

And so I wanted to confess that to you because, just you know I, I do this for ministry leaders and I think man, all of them need this, we do we all. We all need this. We all need to understand what our part is in the equation here on planet Earth, and part of this is to be a good steward with the bodies that God has given to us and so we can be faithful disciples of Jesus to the best of our ability. It's offering God your best, being a good steward with what you've been given, learning to love your neighbors as you love yourself. So on some level here you got to love yourself, if you are going to love your neighbor, that's for sure.

It was quite humbling, let me tell you it, because that was, you know, more than a year ago actually, that I was in that place and I realized that, you know, I'm just like everybody else. Ah, I was in a situation I needed help on that specific situation and I just didn't do it. I sat and I stewed in it and just kind of swam around in it and didn't even say, oh, where's the life preserver for this? You know, where is a coach? Where is, you know, anybody, somebody? And I know I did a previous episode with Dr Chris Adams about why there is resistance to coaching. What is it about coaching? Maybe the question, the better question, is what is it about us as ministry leaders that we feel we can just, you know, lead the charge and go and not need anything else? You know, I frequently said it's an act of humility to come to someone else and say, hey, I need some help. Even if it's just a conversation, sometimes, that's what can awaken you.

So I really enjoyed my time with my spiritual director. It just, it just hit me like a lightning bolt. Hit me like a lightning bolt. That, you know. It's not that I think that I'm different from all y'all. I mean, my calling is different, everybody's calling is different, but we for sure are all in this together. I work on my self-care because, boy, you can't have a podcast on sustainability in ministry if you're not attempting to do that yourself. So, yeah, it helps to keep me on task. Do I get off? Sure, sure, I do. Food, food is especially a big one for me and I have, you know, returned to the throes of the gang of weight watchers to try to keep myself reigned in and under control, because, at the end of the day, I don't want to get to the place where I'm so unhealthy that I'm not as much good to anyone else.

And, besides, I get crabby. I do get crabby when I'm not feeling good about myself, when I'm not loving myself properly. We're not talking about ridiculous self-absorbed narcissism, you know. We're not talking about any levels of that. We're talking about a healthy appreciation for the life that God has given to us, for the calls that God has given to us, for the people in our lives God has given to us, that we need to, then, you know, honor our bodies that God has given to us. I mean, we are the temple of the Holy Spirit and so we need to be living into that and I need to be living into that and I need to still continue to. You know, watch myself and, in terms of, you know, am I stuck somewhere and who can I talk to about this?

So I just want to encourage you. If you're in that place today where you know you're kind of stuck, you're not sure what to do about it. You may even think there's no absolute solution anywhere on the planet for what you are going through, and you know, maybe there isn't, but maybe there are people that can come alongside you as you are walking through it. You know God never puts things in our lives and then leaves us to walk alone through it, even though there's times where you might feel that way. Theologically, we know better, and maybe you just need to be reminded of that today, that you're walking through something and it's always great to have other people for the journey. You want to allow other people to be the gifts that God intends for you to have in your life and let them speak good things into your life, because you have to love yourself that way as well, so that if you love yourself well, then I think we're better able to love other people and we are less cranky, we are less touchy and we are less easily offended. We are more the people that God would have us to be.

And you know, we all need a good dose of compassion for everybody around us, because there are many people around suffering in silence, not just the people in your congregation, but other ministry leaders as well. I mean especially after COVID. I think we're I know we're a little more quirky after COVID, or so any of the handful of counselors that I've spoken to have said, because I've asked them that question you know, before COVID we were quirky. Are we more or less quirky about the same? And they said, oh, we're more quirky. So for sure, since COVID, there's a lot of people that have been impacted and you're not impacted just in COVID, but coming out of COVID and then living with the trauma and people were impacted in various ways, same event, various ways that people are hit with that and they deal with that in various and sundry ways and we're still we're still limping out of that. A lot of people I've heard people you know in my area that are getting divorced. You know, maybe you get to the place where you say, well, life's too short, I'm not living like this. Or, you know, I've decided to make some big shifts and changes since COVID. I'm not living like that anymore. I mean, there's a lot of that going on and people maybe don't understand the level of trauma that they have and they don't understand that maybe they need help and there is help out there. This is where you know, we hear on the news there's a mental health crisis going on and I think there is for sure, for sure.

Many of us have been impacted, whether it is you personally, the people around you, family, friends, people in your congregation. I do have another colleague that I chat with and she just said it. She just feels the devil's on a rampage. I don't know, I'm not a devil is behind every kind of rock gal, you know, but there are influences around that can stir the pot and make things worse and more divisive and more intense, and then what they are, and so I think some of that is at play here. But then we also just need to do the part that we can do and just not be a victim to that, because greater is he who is in me than he was in the world, right? So we don't want to be a victim to that, even though being a victim seems to be rather popular today. I really don't want to be that. I don't want to be a you know, that sad little lump of clay on the you know the side of the road, isn't she pathetic? Who wants to do that? So I want to be the person that God has called me to be Lumps, bumps, warts, and all you know this is. It is what it is, Jesus, and you created me, so you know that.

So I did want to come before you, though, today and make that personal confession and, at the same token, make the plea that don't be walking alone. You need to get a spiritual director, a coach, someone to walk with you that is going to offer you just free space to be yourself, to be totally honest and have it. Not have any repercussions. We all need that. We all need that. So connect with me if you think you want to explore or have a conversation. I'm always game to have that with someone and any conversation I have with you in initial thing is free. Anyway, you know, and I love to chat with people, I love to hear your stories and I love to be able to just encourage you and to give you any help or direction that I can. So don't walk alone and just say you need help. When you need help, find someone to help you. Be blessed, my friends.

Are you wondering whether your fatigue, your lack of motivation, your lack of interest is burnout Maybe? I just wanted to let you know that I have a resource on the website, margiebryce dot com that's B-R-Y-C-E MargieBryce dot com, and it is a burnout questionnaire, free for you to download and kind of self-assess and get a sense of where you're at. There are questions that not only ask about what you're going through but maybe how often you're experiencing it and that's that's kind of a key to where you might be, because you have to know where you are in order to chart a course forward. And most pastors who experience pastors and ministry leaders who experience burnout rarely know that that's where they're at until they're well into it. And if you're unsure about that little statistic so far. Everybody that I've interviewed on this podcast who has experienced burnout. When I asked that kind of question, they're like, yeah, I didn't know, that's where I was at, so again, go to margiebryce dot com. It's on the homepage of the website and you can get your burnout questionnaire and kind of see where you're at.

Hey friends, the Crabby Pastor podcast is sponsored by Bryce Art Glass and you can find that on Facebook. I make stained glass that's part of my self-care and also by Bryce Coaching, where I coach ministry leaders and business leaders, and so the funds that I generate from coaching and from making stained glass is what is supporting this podcast. And I will have opportunities for you to be a part of sponsoring me and, as always, you can do the buy me a cup of coffee thing in the in the show notes. But I will have some other ways that you can be a part of getting the word out about the importance of healthy self-care from ministry leaders. Hey, thanks for listening. It is my deep desire and passion to champion issues of sustainability in ministry and for your life, so I'm here to help. I stepped back from pastoral ministry and I feel called to help ministry leaders create and cultivate sustainability in their lives so that they can go the distance with God and whatever plans that God has for you. I would love to help, I would consider it an honor and, in all things, make sure you connect to these sustainability practices you know, so that you don't become the Crabby pastor.

View Details

Join us for an episode that promises to fortify your ministry and, perhaps, help you steer clear of becoming a Crabby Pastor.Support the show

🦀 🦀 🦀

Find regular support on my Facebook group by clicking HERE.Connect with me about COACHING and Workshops on self-care HERE.

TranscriptMargie: 0:01

This is Margie Bryce, again with the Crabby Pastor podcast, because we are wanting fewer and fewer pastors to be Crabby. Even if you're just Crabby on the inside, that counts too. I'd like to think it doesn't, but we're all trained to do the non-anxious presence thing right. So I'm committed to that, and I have with me Paul Kuzma, who is going to share with us a back to burn back from burnout, not back to burnout. That's a whole different episode, isn't it?

Paul Kuzma: 2:37

It is, there is.

Margie: 2:39

Yeah, so another back from burnout episode. So, paul, I'm going to ask you to introduce yourself. Tell us what you're doing right now in ministry.

Paul Kuzma: 2:50

Yeah, Margie, thanks so much for the privilege and the honor of getting to connect with you and your listeners and to get to share some of my story in hopes that it will help a few. So I am a in terms of what I do. I am a four square pastor At my core. I started pastoring way back in 1985, graduated from Bible college in 1987 and ended up in full time vocational ministry out of four square church in CME Valley, California, where I spent eight years on staff as a youth pastor, four years as associate pastor before I became senior pastor of that same church, and in those first 12 years that I was on staff I had worked with the three previous senior pastors. All those transitions were painful. Before I ended up, we'll get in a little bit more of my burnout story three and a half years after I became senior pastor. What I do today is I serve full time as director and certified pastoral counselor at Center for Spiritual Renewal East, which is a retreat center for four square pastors and their families that's located in, of all places, Christiansburg, Virginia.

Margie: 4:20

I saw that and I thought well, isn't that interesting. Was that? Were you there before it was named the town?

Paul Kuzma: 4:27

No, no, Christiansburg was established way back in the if I remember right sometime in the late 1700s. And we're tucked into the southwest corner of the Commonwealth of Virginia and we're better known for our next door neighbor, Blacksburg, which is the home of the Virginia tech Hokies Go Hokies.

Margie: 4:54

Hokies With a K.

Paul Kuzma: 4:56

That's correct. H-o-k-i-e -S. So what's a Hokie? You know that's so fun that you've just asked me that question. Margie, I'm going to give you the official answer.

Margie: 5:09

Okay.

Paul Kuzma: 5:10

We don't know. Oh that is the. You can Google it.

Margie: 5:16

What is a Hokie official?

Paul Kuzma: 5:17

answer what's a? What's a Virginia tech Hokie.

Margie: 5:20

I mean, I keep asking my husband what's a Whitney lion as opposed to a regular lion? There you go, there you go. You're like what.

Paul Kuzma: 5:27

Our mascot for the Virginia tech Hokies is a turkey, and the reason for that is because before the name Hokies they were called the, the Virginia tech goblers.

Margie: 5:42

So the question is is that an improvement to Hokie? I don't know.

Paul Kuzma: 5:49

So so we have a an 80 plus acre campus that for the the four square church denomination owns, that is called the whole of it is called cross point conference center. But on the campus is a set of seven apartments in one build, one of four apartment buildings that is dedicated as what I love to call four squares. Gift of a free time share to our pastors and their families. Wow, I love it we offer up to a week a year of free lodging very nicely, kind of plushed out apartment that a pastor or their family members get fully to themselves. They can come for anything from a study break to some Sabbath rest to to crisis management dealing with some kind of crisis. If they'd like counseling, I'm the primary counselor on the campus, serving in that whole full time. Okay, a little part time slice of my life, margie. I work with a guy by the name of Pete Scazzero. Pete and his wife are the founders of a ministry that today is called emotionally healthy discipleship. Yeah, and it really crosses well with my work with our four sport pastors. Emotionally healthy discipleship is based on the premise that you can't separate your emotional health from your spiritual maturity. Therefore, you can't be spiritually mature while remaining emotionally immature. And that's that's got a lot of tie into my own story.Margie: 7:27

Paul Kuzma: 8:17

Yep, at the same church that I had already served. By the time I hit burnout it was a little over 15 years of ministry at the same church and, like I mentioned a couple minutes ago, served my first 12 years with the three previous senior pastors. All of those transitions were painful for the pastor's family and the church and when I became a senior pastor started to do some history on the church, I discovered it was actually started in 1949. I was the ninth pastor in the church's history and the church had never known a positive pastoral transition that I could, that I could trace. And so, three and a half years in, I found myself in a season of having given myself to a flurry of ministry activity, as most pastors do, not knowing much about limits or boundaries at the time, and found myself in a season barely able to get out of bed many mornings, crying at the drop of a hat, getting angry about things that I didn't generally or historically get angry about, and wondering what in the world I was doing and the job I was in. Had a uh, pastoral counselor in my life at the time. I was not in any kind of official therapy or counseling, it was more of a mentor kind of relationship who sat me down and said, paul, I think you're in burnout and I didn't get here overnight Not getting out overnight and you need to look at get some help. Wow, that that was kind of the ministry context. It was, uh, season of a lot of learning to grow out of that and grow back from burnout.

Margie: 10:13

Paul Kuzma: 10:34

Well, it's been well to 2020. It was 23 years ago right now, that I was in that season. It was January, February that I uh 2001, that I hit that season. And Margie, that's a hard question to answer I I can't really put a number of how long it took me. And in some ways I still, when I share my story, say I'm in recovery. Hmm, because the reality is that, at least for me and a lot of pastors that I work with these days who are navigating burnout, what we realize is, once you get out of it, there's no guarantee that you don't experience some level of it again. Hmm. So in some ways I say that I'm I'm still in recovery and some of the main issues that I discovered in counseling and therapy in my initial recovery season, I'm still navigating and managing those issues that led me to burnout today that I ended up discovering. But if I can go back to my initial recovery, I would say I was in a what I called a modified sabbatical for about six months, and what I mean by modified sabbatical is I wasn't away from the church the entirety of that time but I was given freedom by my church council and my district supervisor to do what I needed to do to find my way back to health during that season of time, and I think even better than the term normal is the term noon dorm. Hmm, it took me about. It took me about six months to get back to a place where I said to my congregation I'm back, but it's going to look different, okay, and then it probably took me another four or five years to figure out what that different really was. There's a lot of fine tuning.

Margie: 12:40

Sure, and how did it have to look different this time?

Paul Kuzma: 12:43

Yeah, yeah, so probably best by filling in that what ended up happening was initially, when my mentor sat down with me and I started talking about my symptoms of very low energy, strong fatigue, hardly get out of bed in the morning, crying at the drop of a hat, the anger that I was experiencing. He was the one who said I think you need some time off. It had been a long time Probably the most time I had taken off all at once was maybe a week, in an hour or two, which didn't happen very often and so we ended up arranging for me to take a break for one month. I felt like at the time that's all the church could handle. I had a pretty skewed view of my importance at the time I could put it that way and so I took a month off. I came back at the end of that month. It was an incredible time of reconnecting with Jesus as a person. But I came back and encountered a couple situations where that anger arose. It became quickly apparent to me that one month wasn't enough. But even when I took my one month break, I refused to call it a sabbatical, because at our church, sabbaticals were things that pastors didn't come back from. Really they were what I call reactive sabbaticals. I think there's two kinds of sabbaticals I've learned over the years. Reactive and proactive. And around our denomination and around the church I was at, sabbaticals were things that pastors they were disciplinary in nature. We had to put a pastor on sabbatical versus being proactive and planning to engage seasons of sabbatical every handful of years. We just haven't had that kind of history in our denomination. So when it became apparent that the one month wasn't enough, I ended up working out an idea that I called a modified sabbatical, which again meant that I wasn't preaching every week like I previously was, and I was free to make decisions about my schedule on a day-to-day basis. It allowed me to follow my body, see my doctor, so I started getting physical in place. At the time I had high blood pressure First time in my life I faced that. I started being treated for that and then also began to see a therapist for the first time. A therapist's office is a place that I'd never gone to for myself, even though I told hundreds of people over the years to go there. So it was in therapy that I started to be introduced to the concept of family systems theory and my family of origin. My first therapist knew a genogram with me discovered I had played the role of savior in my family of origin oh, interesting, and ended up discovering how common it is that we take the role that we played in our family of origin into the rest of our life, in our adult years, and how I had become in my mind, without ever, almost subconsciously, wanting to be or thinking I was called to be the savior for this congregation who had painful pastoral history.Margie: 16:37

Paul Kuzma: 17:14

Yes, so that speaks to a critical lesson that I learned with my initial therapist, margie. I ended up initially spending two weeks at a retreat center up in Northern California with a therapist who was a former pastor himself, and during the course, at the end of those two weeks, on the last day I was there, my friend Russ said to me Paul, I think you're going to make it long term in ministry, but it's not going to be with a without a lot more pain and a lot more loss of relationship. And I said, russ, thanks so much, my brother, for those just deeply encouraging parting words. And if I could do what you need to do with this in the reporting, margie, I looked at him and I said what all does that mean? Because I am shaking in my boots right now. He said well, he said, paul, we've talked about a lot of things over these two weeks in your life, in your approach to ministry, that need to change for you to last long term. He said more pain means that you're gonna go home and be tempted to keep doing life and ministry the way you've always done and it will be painful for you To call yourself out and do it differently. He said more loss of relationship means that I'm I'm sending you home to a congregation that's only known pastor Paul one way for 15 years, and when you start to do life in ministry differently, you're gonna have some people who aren't gonna like it and that's probably gonna lead to some loss of relationship. Well, this guy could not have been. This former pastor now serving as a therapist could not have been more prophetic, margie one of those Become kind of a mantra of my story that I, that I joke with a little bit I I'll often say over the next four or five years we learned how to grow a church from about four or five hundred people to about 200.Margie: 19:34

And I'm not being facetious about the growth.Paul Kuzma: 19:36

Margie: 20:23

Mm-hmm.

Paul Kuzma: 20:24

Margie: 21:03

So what? What else did you do differently?

Paul Kuzma: 21:07

Yeah. So, russ, my first couple days there, asked me if I'd ever read a book by John Townsend and Henry Cloud called boundaries. Hmm, and I said man Ross, that's such a great book. I Recommend that book all the time. And he said, okay, but have you ever read the book? I said, man, that's got some great chapters in it. I I've passed chapters in that book to people. He said, paul, if you ever read the book boundaries? I Said nah, not really no. And that became that book became foundational for me, margie, to begin to realize that Boundaries are an important part of health and self-care. So, you know, I began to put boundaries in place around you know some of my hours. I began to learn about Sabbath and its importance and began to institute and implement Sabbath practice. I began to recognize that a couple of the personal issues that it led me into Into burnout had to do with work addiction and Perfectionism and began to address those areas in my life, a very practical thing that I started to do. Interestingly that I've now gone into counseling. At the time I was doing a lot of counseling and began to realize how much of a time and energy drain it was. And then at that season I was not the best counselor for people. So I began to refer people to counseling Instead of doing the counseling myself, and that was one boundary that I was Working with in a fresh and new way in my life. So so those were. Those were some of the things that I began to change about how I was approaching life and ministry.

Margie: 23:12

Paul Kuzma: 23:51

Yes, that's absolutely right. The the, the Western mindset of productivity. I would add to that list of factors driving work addiction and workaholism for pastors. I would add to that the, the history of the church growth movement in America and the Maybe the filter of productivity that's been placed over that, that everything that every healthy church Grows and that should be in numbers as well, right I? I think I actually have learned for myself. I've become more convinced that there's a place for the small church in America. I Think another layer or factor on this issue of work addiction is how in the world Can you work, can I work too much for God? I Mean if, if I just put in the work, he'll pick up the rest of the pieces right, he'll take care of everything else. When we look at some of our historical figures around American Christianity and some of the popular evangelists, pastors, ministers, you know they adopted the mindset I'd rather Burn out than rust out. Some of those kinds of things were, were models for me. So, so I think those were, those were all factors in the work addiction. Peace as well, my own family of origin, watching my, my mom and dad Work and work and work and work with the nose to the grindstone, those, those were factors for my own work addiction as well so you did.

Margie: 25:43

You did a lot of introspection, a lot of Work on your self-awareness. Yes, you know why you do the things, you do in the way that you do them, and Then decided to pull back on what wasn't healthy.

Paul Kuzma: 25:59

Margie: 26:44

Right.Paul Kuzma: 26:45

Paul Kuzma: 27:27

Margie: 28:30

Oh, okay. Well, now I'm gonna have to ask you to say more about that.

Paul Kuzma: 28:34

Yeah, so Ministry is so complex. I think it was If I have it right, I think I I've heard that it was Peter Drucker who Quoted some kind of research that had been done, maybe a couple decades ago, that they discovered the Pastoral ministry, the pastors Pastoral ministry is one of the most hazardous and stressful Occupations like it was in the top three and I Think every pastor needs you know some writing partners. I don't think we can do this alone. We're not meant to do this alone. I think even scripturally, biblically, we're not meant to do this alone. We're meant to do this with other people. But yet there's kind of a mystique out there that the pastor's got to be perfect. The pastor's got to have it together. The family of the pastor has to have it together. The reality is that we're all humans. One of my distant early mentors in the work that I do now is was a guy by the name of Archibald Hart, and he served out the bulk of his career as the director of the school of psychology of Fuller Theological Seminary in Pasadena, did a lot of research Around pastors and a lot of counseling in this area, and he used to say I heard him say to Multiple groups of pastors over the years. Margie, pastors don't get into trouble because they forget that they're pastors. Pastors get into trouble because they forgot that they're people hmm, we forget that we're human.

Margie: 30:24

sometimes I feel like you forget that you're finite, that's right and that there are limits. That's what I mean by that. We have limits to what we can do. God is infinite, but we are definitely finite and we need to then intentionally allocate our time, energy, attention, resources accordingly and not burn the candle at both ends, as they say, for burnout for sure. So so you did, you did your counseling, you did your sabbatical, which I think it started out a revised sabbatical, but then I'm into more of a sabbatical after that, and what are some other things that you did to address your burnout, or did we pretty much get them?

Paul Kuzma: 31:18

Yeah, I would. I would say I began to, I began to look at my year every year in the In the scope of the rhythms. What would the rhythm of my year look like? And I began to build in a rhythm of rest and retreat. So I started to take one or two three to five day study breaks each year where I would get out of town somewhere. I called it a study break, for lack of a better term. What it was was an ability to get out of town where the pressure was. I believe in that old Western term of getting out of dodge, the thing about getting out of our everyday, getting out of the demands of home and giving yourself some freedom to follow your body in terms of rest for those days to work when you feel you have the energy for work. So there was study that took place within that break. I often plan out my next four to six months of sermon themes. Take a look at what the vacation calendar looks like for our family over the next several months. I started to take vacation rather than minimize vacation.Margie: 32:40

Rather than getting the medal for not taking vacation. That's absolutely right.

Paul Kuzma: 32:44

Instead of I developed a preaching team format of ministry around our church, which was another area of contention at times for some people. For those first few years I also again I mentioned a little earlier I started to implement Sabbath, a weekly Sabbath, to take a look at what it looked like to unplug for those 24 hours to stop. And then another practical point I began when I picked up Scazzero's, his original book, the Emotionally Healthy Church in 2003. I ended up just closely following that material. It was early enough in what was happening around the Scazzero' s at that time that I was able to get to know him a little bit personally, started to ask him how he was applying this concept of emotionally healthy, discipling people and their emotional health to ministry life and began to apply a lot of those principles Over those years as his notoriety grew a little bit more. He asked if I would just take some phone calls and emails from pastors that are wondering the same things that I was wondering and that I was actually applying. And so today I serve as director of a small group of volunteers pastors who have applied and integrated what we call the Emotionally Healthy Discipleship course into our church's discipleship pathways, and we talk with pastors around the US and Canada about doing that same thing, so that has helped me as well. It's another practical way that I've just continued to engage that in my own personal life the concept of seeing my emotional health as a point of discipleship. Sure sure, and it's separated from my followership of Jesus.

Margie: 34:49

Right, right and you get to see Jesus do redemption. That's right Of a challenging situation. Yes, so here we are, a bit after COVID, I mean to the point where I think the throngs at Christmas, you know, during this recent Christmas season, have returned or close to returned, even though numbers still are not where they were before. But you know, and that's where my concern is, you know how hard are pastors working to thinking that what they do is going to get everybody to come back, whether that's an additional burden that pastors are carrying right now. But I would like to see what you would say are the top three things that you might say to ministry leaders today maybe, who are wondering if they're dealing with burnout or just in terms of their work-life balance maybe. So what are your top three pieces of advice that you would offer to ministers?

Paul Kuzma: 35:59

Yeah, that's a great question and I would say, margie, that first and foremost would be to really adopt a mindset that you, that who you are, is more important than what you do. But what you do matters. It matters for eternity, but who you are matters more. The best gift again that you can bring to your congregation, as you're leading and pastoring and shepherding people, is a healthy you. So whatever you can do to invest in who you are and let what you do flow from that well, your own relationship with Jesus, your relationship with your family, friends and a relationship with your congregation. And then another mantra that I picked up in my relationship with Pete Schazzaro would essentially say that the state you are in is the state that you give to others. So if you're an anxious person, that will make you an anxious pastor, and it's important to realize again that who you are will inform what you do. So invest in you. Number one, and I think you know. I come back to the mantra I mentioned earlier. I think every pastor needs a therapist. If it's a therapist, a counselor, life coach, you know different seasons of your life and leadership might demand different relationships. Take the more spiritual director.

Margie: 37:53

Don't do the journey alone is what I like to say. You need to have other people with you and I know. At one point I had a spiritual director and a coach. I was leading a merger and I was thinking, man. I could mess this up. And so I got you know the people to journey with me. I mean, this is, out of proverbs, the counsel of many as wise, and so I thought, well, we're loading up. But it is important not to journey alone, because you get stuck inside your own head and sometimes that's not a great place to be at all.

Paul Kuzma: 38:35

Margie: 39:41

So that's the Hidden Link Between Adrenaline and Stress.

Paul Kuzma: 39:47

It's an older book, it's about 40, maybe a little over 40 years old, but it's as relevant today as it's ever been, and he wrote it for pastors. So it's a great way to get acquainted with this concept of adrenaline, this chemical that got created of us with and has great purpose of use, but is actually a chemical that we can become addicted to. Arch proposes that we can actually become so addicted to our adrenaline that we're pulling on it at will. We're calling it crisis management or we're calling it I do my best work in the last minute. Now, what that really means is that you like the adrenaline. Arch was one of the earliest folks that I heard talking to pastors about the concept of self-care. He would often say Margie. He would say, pastor, please don't confuse your adrenaline with the anointing on Sunday morning. That's funny. So the impact of stress on your physical body. I would say that that would be the second piece of advice that I would give to pastors that are recognizing burnout and its impact, and then I would say you know the number three thing I think would be found in a couple of questions. One is what are you doing for fun in your life? I know I tend to take myself way too seriously. So I have to really lean into having some fun in my life to supplement stress and handle, cope with stress in more healthy ways. But then I would also ask the question for pastors. I ask them regularly who are your friends outside of ministry, who are not projects?

Margie: 41:46

That's a good question.

Paul Kuzma: 41:47

Margie: 42:46

And how well do pastors cope with attempting to find friends who are not projects, who are not part of their church?

Paul Kuzma: 42:58

Margie: 44:28

Right. Sell insurance no Right.

Paul Kuzma: 44:32

Paul Kuzma: 45:48

Absolutely so welcome. Thank you for connecting and having me on.

Margie: 45:53

You're welcome. Are you wondering whether your fatigue, your lack of motivation, your lack of interest is burnout Maybe? I just wanted to let you know that I have a resource on the website, margiebryce dot com, that's B-R-Y-C-E margiebryce dot com, but it is a burnout questionnaire, free for you to download, and kind of self-assess and get a sense of where you're at. There are questions that not only ask about what you're going through but maybe how often you're experiencing it, and that sets kind of a key to where you might be, because you have to know where you are in order to chart a course forward. And most pastors who experience pastors and ministry leaders who experience burnout rarely know that that's where they're at until they're well into it. And if you're unsure about that little statistic, so far, everybody that I've interviewed on this podcast who has experienced burnout, when I asked that kind of question, they're like, yeah, I didn't know that's where I was at. So again, go to margiebryce dot com it's on the homepage of the website and you can get your burnout questionnaire and kind of see where you're at. Hey friends, the Crabby Pastor podcast is sponsored by Bryce Art Glass and you can find that on Facebook I make stained glass, that's part of my self-care and also by Bryce Coaching, where I coach ministry leaders and business leaders, and so the funds that I generate from coaching and from making stained glass is what is supporting this podcast and I will have opportunities for you to be a part of sponsoring me and, as always, you can do the Buy Me a Cup of Coffee thing in the show notes. But I will have some other ways that you can be a part of getting the word out about the importance of healthy self-care for ministry leaders. Hey, thanks for listening. It is my deep desire and passion to champion issues of sustainability in ministry and for your life, so I'm here to help. I stepped back from pastoral ministry and I feel called to help ministry leaders create and cultivate sustainability in their lives so that they can go the distance with God and whatever plans that God has for you. I would love to help, I would consider it an honor and, in all things, make sure you connect to these sustainability practices you know, so that you don't become the Crabby pastor.

View Details

When Cathi Parish went from a local pastor in Indiana to a minister of evangelism in Alabama, little did she know that her quest for coaching would redefine not just her path, but the way we all view mentorship in ministry. Our latest episode of the Crabby Pastor podcast is a heartfelt exploration with Cathi into the world of coaching for ministry leaders, where we debunk myths and showcase coaching as a cornerstone of support and guidance. We wade through the waters of self-discovery and unravel how a coach can be the cheerleader every leader secretly needs, especially when the going gets tough and self-doubt creeps in.Join us as we discuss how coaching can be the antidote to imposter syndrome and a catalyst for crafting a ministry that not only survives but thrives amid the demands of worship planning and pastoral care. Our conversation takes a personal turn as I share my transformation from pastoral ministry to providing support through coaching and creative outlets. We extend a warm invitation to dive into the conversation on fostering robust self-care practices within the ministry community. It's not just about replenishing the well; it's about ensuring that the spiritual journey is as enriching and sustainable for the leader as it is for the flock they guide.Support the show

🦀 🦀 🦀

Find regular support on my Facebook group by clicking HERE.Connect with me about COACHING and Workshops on self-care HERE.

TranscriptMargie : 0:01

Hey there, Margie Bryce, here bringing you the Crabby Pastor podcast, and I don't think you're going to be too surprised to know that it's too easy today to become the Crabby Pastor. Our time together will give you food for thought to help you be the ministry leader, fully surrendered to God's purposes and living into whatever it takes to get you there and keep you there, and we're talking about sustainability in ministry. Well, for this episode of the Crabby Pastor podcast, I want to thank you for listening and welcome you. I'm Margie Bryce, I am your host here at the Crabby Pastor podcast and today I have with me Cathi Parish and she's going to introduce herself in a moment. We're going to talk a little bit more about coaching and what it is, what it's not, or because people have some ideas about coaching, that it's, you know, like your kid's soccer coach. You know like I'm going to yell on the sidelines or something. It's not exactly that, but let's, let's. I'm going to let Cathi just introduce herself and describe her role in ministry.

Cathi: 1:21

Hi, I'm Cathi Parish and I am a retired licensed local pastor from Indiana and curre

View Details

S2 Ep36: Observations from slowing down

View Details

The Crabby Pastor: Recent Episodes

Rev. Dr. Margie Bryce